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In the Monday February 1 Ny Post there is a TA Office of System Safety report that blasts the TA for the death of a Brooklyn track worker killed when he slipped in a dark, wet sunway tunnel and feel onto the electrified third rail, the NY Post has learned.
After you good folks have read the article, your thoughts are welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Yes, I found it an interesting article, but it's important to remember that there may be more facts that weren't mentioned. Drawing any conclusions based on a newspaper article probably isn't a good idea.
Just a note--this article doesn't seem to be in the Post online edition.
While I was familiar with this incident, I wanted to read the article before I made any comments about the incident or the contents of the article itself. It is amazing how differently people can interpret a news item. The article, on one hand, is critical of the TA for ignoring safety issues but on the other hand, mentions that the article is based on a report by the TA's own Office of Safety.
As for the facts of the incident as I know them: The worker slipped and fell, landing on the 3rd rail and was electrocuted. There were reportedly safety procedures ignored, which contributed to this incident. What does that really mean? If safety procedures were violated, then the TA had to have these same procedures in place for them to be ignored. The supervisor in charge of the worksite was reportedly suspended immediately for disregarding the safety procedures. (The Post completely ignored this fact) Finally, the hourly employees apparently also ignored the lack of safety devices in place. Workers, regardless of title can refurse to work if the working conditions are unsafe. The Post seemed to make it sound like there was controversy over working while 3rd rail voltage was on. This is by no means unusual. Virtually all of my Car Inspectors and Road Car Inspectors will work with 600 Volts when necessary. We are trained to do this safely and do so hundreds of times a day.
In the last paragraph of the artcle, they quote a gentleman from the union safety committee who says that they will never give in on working with 600 volts again. I happen to know this person for the past two decades as he worked for me as a Car Inspector before becoming a Union Safety Committee member. He has worked under 600 volts in the past and knows that it is necessary at times. As the Senior VP stated in the article, the TA Safety People, while well intentioned, have no idea about the actual procedures used in the field throughout the industry.
Every time the TA changes Presidents, the organizational focus shifts slightly. Each new president wants to leave his mark on the organization. One wanted to eliminate graffiti while the next was committed to repairing the rolling stock. Still another wanted to make the TA run like a profitable business. President Reuter has committed his focus to employee safety. We (managers, supervisors and hourly alike) are saturated with safety related information and directives on a daily basis.....Sadly, an employee, a husband, a son, a brother and a friend lost his life needlessly and tragically. However, it was the direct result of individual(s) who failed to follow the established proceedures and not the organization who had those procedures in place and mandates their use....
<>
a typical management response. passing the buck as usual
Also in the Monday February 1 Ny Post, a Brooklyn teen was killed, and three others wounded when rival gangs squared off at the L train platform at the Union Square station with knives and guns on Sunday January 31.
Your thought are most welcome after you read the article.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Updating this teen slaying story is that 3 brooklyn teenagers have been arrested in the 14th street-Union Square station subway gang melee. This might be on radio now.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
[Also in the Monday February 1 Ny Post, a Brooklyn teen was killed, and three others wounded when rival gangs squared off at the L train platform at the Union Square station with knives and guns on Sunday January 31.
Your thought are most welcome after you read the article.]
There was something rather amusing in the article (though see my caution elsewhere re taking newspaper reports too seriously). One of the gangs, I don't remember if it was the Mexican Boys or the Wild Chicanos, was heading back from a christening, of all things, when they ran into their rivals. You'd think they'd be in good moods after being at a christening ...
All in all, this was a pretty ridiculous incident. At least no innocent people were injured.
Regarding my caution about taking newspaper reports too seriously:
Accoring to the Post, the gangs involved were the Mexican Boys and the Wild Chicanos. Yet the online version of the Times says they were Barrio 26 and Chicano Nation. Who's right - the Post, the Times ... or neither?
Newspaper inaccuracy is just a minor issue. What *is* cause for concern is that during the month of January, there were two murders on the subway (this incident and the Kendra Webdale pushing), compared to only one for all of 1998. I know, it's too early to start thinking about trends, but even so, this isn't encouraging.
Here's the
link to the Post
Howdy folks,
For those of you who were watching commercials between Atalnta's humiliating defeat(sorry, Atalnta fans), see if you caught any of these subway shots during three commercials yesterday:
1. In the commercial for the new Keanu Reeves movie "The Matrix", there was a scene when he was directly in the path of I believe a Toronto subway train.
2. In yesterday's second worst SBC(Super Bowl Commercial), Jerry Seinfeld travelled the country, and when crossing the Manhattan Bridge, clearly visible below him was a train of R-68's.
3. In the "NFL Thank You" spots, there was a shots of the NY Jets thanking fans at a LIRR station(Jamaica?) and fans waving from a train.
I had to keep the old brain working during between plays. Better than doing the Dirty Bird.
[3. In the "NFL Thank You" spots, there was a shots of the NY Jets thanking fans at a LIRR station(Jamaica?) and fans waving from a train.]
That station was Merrick, on the Babylon line. You could see the sign very briefly in the background of one of the shots.
I saw the Manhattan Bridge in one of those commercials. Didn't spot any subway trains, though.
There is a victory parade in Denver at 2:00 PM today, followed by a rally in Civic Center Park. We'll see if RTD runs 3-car light rail trains the way they during last year's parade.
This morning I saw on train #171, the Mayflower, at Back Bay station. Powering the otherwise normal consist was an F40 and GP40 #197! Do they usually run GP40's on the NE corridor?
Are we going to have a larger surplus, too? Lit Subway Billboards Are Coming to Stations
The way the MTA is talking in that article, I'm waiting for the first shrink-wrapped ad on a subway car to make its appearance any day now.
I was recently at the subway.org ftp and downloaded the sound files there. However, they were in an uncommon .au format. Do you know how to convert these to .wav so I can use them as sounds for Windows?
I think Microsoft Media Player handles them. .au is known as "Sparc Audio" format Ulaw encoded, 8000 Mhz mono.
-Dave
No, I think you misunderstood my question. I mean how to make them to .wav files so I can use them as system sounds; for example, like shutting down windows or an error message.
I had the same question. How do you convert the files on the ftp to a windows file that can be used as sounds?
I finally figured out how to convert these! Go to www.goldwave.com and download the free version. It is like a mixing program, but it will change the files into .wav format. After you unzip it and start the program, (you dont' have to install it) open the file you want to convert. After it is opened, click on save as, and you'll see where you can choose the file type. Change it to .wav (it's at the very top). Then change the file attributes to 16 bit, mono. That's all you have to do. Then, if you want, put the new .wav file into your windows\media folder and choose that file for a windows command. You can access this by going into control panel and then sounds. If you have any more questions, you can email me at ruffalo@adelphia.net Hope this helps!
Matt
I can vouch for Goldwave too: I've been using it for quite a while, especially for converting other types of sound files to .wav format. It's perfect for changing .au files, or most any other type of file for that matter, into a system sound.
Thank You Matt and Henry!!
I found it and its working just fine. Appreciate it!
Thanks,
Thomas
Hey tom can you e-mail those converted wave file to me.I'll Appreciate it!
Tirado57@aol.com
I have a NYC Subway map from 1988, one of the enlarged ones they have on the platforms in which I bought from the Transit Museum. I notoced on the Service Notices that there is a new Freet Transfer at 42nd street and Times Square. Do I take it that before 1988 you were unable to connect from the A,C,E and the 12397 NR? If so did they have to do some major work to do the connection?
At one time, there was no free transfer from Times Square to the 8th Ave. line. While the mezzanine at 42nd St. is physically the same as it was before, there were separate paid fare zones between uptown and downtown stairways. The entrance from the Port Authority Bus Terminal took you down a ramp to the mezzanine, but it was still outside the paid fare zones along with the corridor passageway to Times Square (which was marked a "Follow the blue arrow to Flushing trains and Shea Stadium" sign). If you went through the turnstiles to the wrong platform, you had to use the underpass which was right at the spot where the uptown and downtown platforms overlap at 42nd St., affording a view of the lower level platform which was fenced off. I remember using that underpass once or twice and getting the creeps after seeing the lower level. This is the way I remember the mezzanine from my days of boarding A trains on Saturdays from 1967 to 1970.
Originally, the fare control in the corridor passageway was located at the Times Square end. I vividly remember seeing a yellow sign which said something like "No free transfer to IND subway. For free transfer take an uptown 1 (may have said IRT local) to 59th St." During the 70s, it was moved to the western end of the passageway right at the 42nd St. mezzanine.
The entire mezzanine at 42nd St. is now incorporated into the paid fare zone, providing a free transfer to the IRT and BMT lines at Times Square, as well as permitting transfers from uptown to downtown. The underpass was closed at the same time, and the lower level has been permanently sealed off. The subway entrance from the Port Authority Bus Terminal was moved one block north after the terminal was expanded, with turnstiles right by the doors. Last fall, there were turnstiles on either side as you came through the doors. If you turn right, only the downtown platform is accessible; if you turn left, you can access both platforms along with the corridor passageway. It's also much brighter than it used to be, and there are far fewer stores than before.
Prior to that date there was no free transfer, however the passageway from the Flushing Line to the IND had been in place for many years and may have been built either when the IND was in 1933 or when the Port Authority Bus Terminal was openned in the early 50's. All that was necessary at the 8 Avenue end was a re-arrangement of the turnstiles and closing off a token booth that was located about midway down the passageway.
Redbird
Does anyone know when Newark's PCC(subway) will be replaced with the new fleet of cars? I wanted to be able to take some pictures before it happens and does anyone know what is to become of the old fleet as well.
I think you will have all of 1999 to get photos. The shop for the new cars has just started construction, and the connection to that shop has not even been started yet.
I recall that some and not all the R-1/9 cars had a long pole with a handle. At the base was a ratchet like gear. This was found at the front next to the end storm door.
Was these used to uncouple the cars? The ones that did not have it next to the door, where was it?
As the train moved, so did the handle hitting the pole in a hypnotic
rhythm.
That was the handbrake. On newer cars, I believe it's located inside the cab. I stand corrected if this not the case.
The cars are uncoupled with a wrench called a cutting key.
The handbrake is also located on older SMEE cars inside a recess
in the storm door pocket column, outside the car.
To be 100% accurate, the cutting key does not uncouple the cars.
It is simply a stylized keyed handle (analogous to the brake handle)
that fits into the uncoupling valve. Inserting the cutting key
and opening the valve with it causes air to be sent to the H-2
coupler head, where a large piston overcomes spring force and
pulls back a locking dog. Once unlocked, the cars can be pulled
away from each other. If the cutting valve should fail to operate,
the cars can be cut by hand by placing a cutting "iron" (a big
box wrench) over a lug on the coupler head and turning. This
has to be done on both cars simultaneously while a third person
moves the cars away. Definitely a risky-finger proposition.
There's also another, non-approved way to manually uncouple that
requires a little "field engineering"
R44 and R46 cars have Ohio Brass couplers and an electro-pneumatic
cutting device activated by a pushbutton.
You can see how this happens in the original Pelham 1-2-3. Unfortunately, the movie doesn't show Mr.Green inserting and turning the cutting key. The remake, as pathetic as it is, does show this sequence of events.
When on the LIRR if you buy a ticket on the train you receive a ticket and receipt. I found one on the train and I started looking at it. Then I had questions I could not answer myself.
On the one way area there is the letter B. What is the B for?
Also when would you ever punch the service charge or set-up area? Finally on the bottom for the destination I guess, why is Dest. always punched? Never nothing else?
I can answer some, but not all.
B? Don't know, always wondered.
Service Charge? This indicates that the penalty fare for buying the ticket on the train was included.
Set-up? Don't know.
Destination? This is the punch which tells the conductor whether or not you've completed your trip. For example, if you get on at Valley Stream and want to go to NYC the conductor who sells you your ticket will punch the JAMAICA box on the westbound line of destinations. Then during the Jamaica to Penn leg of your trip, the conductor will punch the DEST box.
I think I can fill in the blank...
I don't have a receipt in front of me, but by "set-up" I believe you mean "step-up." If you board a peak train and present an off-peak ticket, you have to pay a step-up fare to upgrade to the peak rate. The collector will give you a step-up ticket for the difference.
This differs from the "extension of ride" fare, which I would pay if I presented my monthly ticket for zone 7 but wanted to go to a station in a higher zone.
Mike
On sunday I saw this. When traveling East, we pulled in to Jamaica track 8. As we sat there, to the right where extra tracks are, on the far track behind the M1-3s there was on older car. It looks yellow, has anyone else seen it?
I believe that's some sort of track inspection car.
The "Engineering Inspection Car", which is the LIRR Track Geometry Car, is stored just east of Jamaica Station. I believe the cre referred to is more to the West, on the lead to the Dunton Shop. Looks like an abandoned MP41, used for an office of some type. (I believe there is an AC unit in one of the windows)
Does anyone have photos of the never-used shell that was to be the S. 4th Street station, and which is located above the Broadway station on the G line? Is there any evidence of stairways to this area in the Broadway station today? I find no mention in the line-by-line description of the G.
The S. 4th St. shell is not legally accessible. I don't even think tours are given; infrequently if at all. There are locked gates at one of the ends of the Broadway station which provide access to the unused shell. From what I've read, it is so vast that a flash unit could not provide enough illumination. There's not a whole lot to see anyway, just rough concrete and beams. S. 4th St. is not a full-length station the way Roosevelt Ave. is. It's as long as the Broadway station is wide, kind of like the shell at Utica Ave. Had it been built, it would have had the same layout as Hoyt-Schermerhorn.
This morning at the Beach 116th sta. I noticed in the window of the booth there was a red and white book with black and whit photos entitled "1998 NYC Subway Guide". The clerk told me it was not avalible to the public. The photos on the front were of NYCTA employees and Trains.
What is it?
You can get this book from the Department of Subways
Same Format as the Insiders Guide---from the Dept of Buses
1998 Subways Guide
Contents
________
Organization
Message from the Vice Preisdent
Service Delivery
Car Equiptment
1998 Rodeo Winners
Rapid Transit Operatins
Stations
Maintenance of Way
Electrical Systems
Signals
Infrastructure
Track
Admininstrative
Engineering
New Technlogy Implementation
Administrative and Finance
Capital Programs
New Car Procurement
Operations Support
S I Railroad
MTA/NYC Fleet (roster)
steve
What do the Tiles of Beavers chewing on wood in the astor place (6) station represent?
It's in reference to John Jacob Astor, who made his fortune in beaver furs.
But some people have thought that the beavers actually are rats, an animal more commonly associated with the subway :-)
As David our host has mentioned, these plaques signify Mr. Astor, for whome the Place is named. These are made of "faience", which is double-fired terra cotta, and were manufactured by the Grueby Faience Company of Boston, MA, under the design direction and auspices of Heins and LaFarge, who were responsible for many of the beautiful plaques, mouldings, tablets, tapestries and cartouches you see in the older IRT stations.
Here, take a beaver to lunch!
Wayne
[Click here!]
I live near bedford park blvd and the station only hold 3 tracks why only 3 track. They should make it 4 tracks and make the D a full time express and the b a full time local the Q would be full time as well. 4 tracks under the grand concourse would make be great for the MTA
It would be extremely difficult to rebuild the line as four tracks at this point; it won't happen. But I agree that three-track lines are somewhat foolish. For new subway lines, if any express service is contemplated, four tracks should be built.
Of course, a Grand Concourse full-time express would be worth even less if they kept using the R-68s...
What exactly does that message mean? Somewhat cryptic if you ask me...
Have you ever ridden on a train of R-68s? Talk about slowpokes! The Concourse express run on the D has been reduced to a boooriiiinnnngg, ho-hum, 25 mph putz. The express run along CPW on those cars isn't the same, either. Put it this way: no one will ever mistake the R-68s for the R-10s or R-32s or even slant R-40s.
The objective in designing the subways was to have multiple two or three track lines combine into four track routes with express service.
The Concourse line was designed as one of the local feeders to the Eighth Av. Subway, with the Washington Heights line being the other. Admittedly, the express tracks there run to 168th, but the basic idea is the same. The third track under the Concourse allows for peak hour expresses on one of its routes, but there was never any plan to operate full time express service. Unlike the IRT, where the express goes up one branch and the local up the other, the IND provides express and local service on both branches. IMHO, that makes for poorer overall service.
According to what I heard, there were originally supposed to be four tracks on the Concourse Line, but that they ran out of money. The Brooklyn Line has four tracks all the way to Church Av, and the Queens Line has four tracks all the way to 179th St. (Was it supposed to have been extended to Springfield Blvd, where Hillside Av. opens to a very wide plaza?)
Bob Sklar
Bob: The way I heard the story is about the same. The Bronx people were given a choice, either a three track line now or wait a year and you can have a four track one. They wanted the three track line now.
The lower level platform at 145 Street was built with one extra wide platform to compensate for the missing fourth track.Also the IND Concourse Line runs closely parallel to the IRT Jerome Av Line so there was not a pressing need for a four track line.
Regards,Redbird
To satisfy my idle curiosity does anytone know what is the fastest section on any line on the subway and what speeds are regularly achieved (so I may sample it on my forthcoming 4th tour of the subway). On Lt tracks I have recorded well over 60mph (14secs between 1/4 mile posts on the line from Finchley Road to Harrow on the Hill and I believe this is the fastest section on LT. Unless anyone knows different.
Take the 4 on the Lexinton Avenue Line around Rush-Hour and take it on an R-62. You will the speed if you get an aggresive driver. I did and I found out that driver was going 50 miles per hour.
Christopher j Rivera
I was on an R-train going to Queens under the East River which indicated that it was going 57 mph.
Which cars did the train consist of? I'll bet they were R-32s.
The 6th Ave. express run from 34th St. to W. 4th St. southbound is a real race track. So is the southbound 8th Ave. express dash from 59th St. to 42nd St., especially the downhill portion just south of 50th St. Back when the R-10s ruled the roost on the A, the nonstop stretch along CPW was an express addict's delight. Honorable mention goes to the straightaway runs along 7th Ave. from 34th to 14th Sts., and from Grand Central to Union Square along Park Ave.
The only time I have personally seen a speedometer indicate 50 mph in New York was on a 4 of R-62s in the Joralemon St. tunnel on more than one occasion.
My all-time record was on a BART train in 1981 while heading out to the Oakland-Alimeda County Coliseum; it hit a top speed of 85! That same train did 72 in the Transbay Tube.
I'll second the 60th St tunnel, either direction. Catch a train of R-32s though; I don't think the R-46s get that fast.
--Mark
North bound 60th St. tube with a lite (no passengers) train of R32's did 61 last July. Did 57 on the Rockaway flats with a train of R44's in December. But an un-named individual had something to do withthat one.
No one mentioned the Fourth Avenue express! What no one remembers it before the timers?
The slant R-40s and R-42s would scream down 4th Ave.
Yes! I love those slant's. Remember the Rockaways with them? That's why I have a tendency to work the Q, dispite the 4 trips. Love that Brighton Express. My favorite cars nowadays.
I know Wayne is grinning from ear to ear. I never rode the slant R-40s on the Rockaway line, but I did ride them on the A during the late 70s. They could do a very good impression of a train of R-10s along CPW. In other words, they could, and still do, move!
Evenings and weekends (when they're not making everything local), those R-32s on the E Queens Boulevard Express (especially in the express-only tunnel from Queens Plaza to Roosevelt) can melt your socks! Other great express runs: 4/5 59th-86th-125th (NOT rush hour when there's too much congestion!); 2/3 Times Square-72nd); Q Newkirk-Kings Highway. The legendary 59th to 125th (A/D) seems to have timers or construction; there's always a bad bogdown at 72nd (downtown) and 103rd (uptown). As far as river tunnels, 60th and Montague when on an R-32 is nirvana. Runners-up: Joralemon (even better on a Redbird than a 62); 14th Street (L); 53rd Street (E ONLY!) evenings and weekends.
Every now and then I try the BMT trains. God, they drag. The Brighton crawls down from 7th Avenue, and from then on. It took 25 minutes from 7th Avenue to Grand one morning, and it didn't seem like something special had happened.
The IRT seems to be the fastest. Even the locals move. Now that my kids are in school at 8th Avenue and 7th St, I find I can get to work faster walking up to Grand Army and taking the IRT than by walking two blocks and taking the F to the A/C. Lately the F has been baaaaad, especially in the evenings.
If you're referring to the R-68s on the D, you won't get any argument from me. The slant R-40s on the Q can still move swiftly. And, yes, locals on the IRT really zoom along, much to the dismay of those of us who are diehard express addicts.
Slant 40s are geared at 7.235:1. 10 Slant 40s weigh about 776,000 Lbs. and have 4,600 HP or 169 Lbs/Hp.
At the same time, the R-68s are geared at 117:23 or 5.086:1. Eight R-68s weigh about 742,000 Lbs. and have 3,680 Hp or about 202 Lbs/Hp.
I'm not a mathamatician but the Slants have the advantage in Hp/Weight but the 68s have it in gearing. I'd have to call it pretty close to a draw. Of course, this does not take into account the aerodynamic differences of the cars.
The weight of each individual car also plays a role. The slants are about 14,000 lbs lighter per car, and, like all the cars from the R-10 up to the R-42 (save the R-16, of course) just seem to ride a lot lighter on the tracks than the later models, though the R-46 can kick it into gear when it wants to. The R-68 rides `heavy' -- it just feels like it wants to go down as much as forward when you're on it.
I know this isn't scientific, but that's just the way the cars feel.
Wait, what "speed" is at issue here? During initial acceleration?
Top-end speed? "Route" speed? Customer speed perception?
During initial acceleration, all cars in the fleet should perform
almost identically. The accelerating current (notching) limits
are calibrated to give uniform acceleration rate (2.0 MPH/s).
The load weigh cards are also adjustable so this rate is made
regardless of weight. So if you start two "competing" trains
side by side on equal trackage at the same time, you should be
looking at the exact same window on the other car for a while.
When the automatic acceleration has notched all the way out (boy,
the calculations get much easier now that all that pesky field
shunting doesn't happen anymore :) the cars continue to draw traction
current and accelerate, but at a vanishing rate. That's because
the counter-EMF generated by the motors counteracts the applied 600V.
Counter EMF is proportional to speed (for a given field current)
and so as the car gains speed, the available electric potential to
the motors falls off. Eventually, a speed is reached at which
the current flowing through the motors produces just enough tractive
effort to counteract wind resistance, rolling resistance, mechanical
losses in bearings and journals, and a host of other complicated
track/train dynamics factors. That's called the "balancing speed".
The R68 and slant 40 (GOH) use motors with identical electrical
specs. The R68's higher gear reduction is needed so its motors
can deliver the same rate of acceleration without straining the
motors. By the same farecard, the R68 should have a lower balancing
speed since the motor is turning faster in relation to the wheel
than on the R40.
Of course, there is also the perception that the smaller the object you are riding in, the faster you feel you are going. Thus the IRT car also gives the perception of greater speed. Of course, going from Dekalb to Grand you are laboring upgrade and then riding the brakes downhill working the time lights. This adds up to the train not performing at its best anyway! The tunnel grades aren't as steep, and in the close confines of the tube speed appears amplified. Again the IRT wins!
When it comes to the poor old R-16s, four words come to mind: everybody out and push!
I suppose the same could be said for the R-68s.
The ultimate race: slant R-40s vs R-38s. Any bets?
I'll bet on the slant R 40
Slant/Sumitomo "Q" beats out Buffalo Transit/GE "A" by a pantograph gate! (#4399 should come over from the "L" to lead the way- that one is VERY FRISKY for her age - 31).
Wayne
Two important points:
One:
Same Equipment - Same Car - Same Speed
Balancing speed is inversely porportional to weight on cars with the same equipment.
It is also inversly porportional to gear ratio.
Therefore if an R-68 is heavier than an R-40 and has a higher gear ratio, its not going to go as fast - all other things being equal.
BUT! It will make it over the bridge without losing traction or burning up motors.
Two:
If you mix cars with different gear ration and equal rates in the same train, mix cars with different accelleration rates, or mix shunted and unshunted cars in the same train - you get coupler slack action, frazzled passengers, and draught gear repairs.
So if one particular car runs faster than others - it probably has a problem that needs to be repaired!
All the more reason to put some slant R-40s back on the A.
>>Every now and then I try the BMT trains. God, they drag. The Brighton crawls down from 7th Avenue, and from then on. It took 25 minutes from 7th Avenue to Grand one morning, and it didn't seem like something special had happened.
Nope, that happens every morning. I assume it has to do with the B merging in just at the point trains have to slow to cross the bridge; once trains leave Grand Street they (both Qs and Ds, I find, despite the equipment difference) run at a pretty good clip as far as 34th.
I work on 55th Street, so the Q practically dumps me into my lobby--otherwise I'd switch over to the IRT myself. On the bright side, I can usually get a seat going over the bridge (since so many people ditch at DeKalb for the tunnel lines), and there's plenty of time to enjoy the view.
Actually, D and Q trains tend to crawl n/b from 7 Av to Atlantic Av because the signals are set up as 35MPH grade timers, but also as 20MPH station timers. Apparently, nobody in RTO bothered to explain to Train Operators that these signals can operate either way (they only act as station timers if a train is right behind its leader), so most Train Operators tend to treat the signals as 20MPH timers even though they could safely move at 35MPH. The same thing happens s/b from 7 Av to Prospect Park, where the timers are GT40/ST20.
(Could safely move at 35 but go 20). Twenty miles an hour? I'm getting pretty chubby, but I'm pretty sure I could job out ahead of a D/Q no problem. I saw a TV show on an Indian railroad that runs up the Himilayas to a hill station. It goes so slow up the mountain that passengers get off, run along side for a little exercise, then get back on. That's more like it. Trains crawl over the bridge, too.
I ride the line every weekday, and it does go slow through that section into Atlantic. (And over the bridge, and in midtown. After that I don't know.)
But during midday or on a weekend, I've been on trains that felt like they would plow right into the wall at the curve before the platform at Atlantic.
I've also been on Brooklyn bound weekend trains that zip right over the bridge. At least up to the GT signals.
There is an abandoned station at Roosevelt Avenue intended for a connection to the Rockaways. It was never used and I believe it is used by Police. Does anyone have drawings of it or photographs?
If you're not a member of the Transit Museum then you should be. Join the Museum and sign up for the tour Routes Not Built - then you can visit it and take pictures for yourself!
I don't live in New York City. Do you? My good friend Joe Cunningham gives the tours for the Transit Museum.
No, I don't. However, I joined the Transit Museum several years ago and will occasionally make the journey to New York for the tours (assuming I get the information in time before they are all booked up). I've been on several of Joe's tours and they are usually excellent. Indeed, I can only recall one that was disappointing, and that wasn't Joe's fault - someone in the TA made a mistake and didn't have a facility open for us that they were supposed to have. I don't remember who led the tour that I took to Roosevelt Avenue a couple of years ago, but it wasn't Joe. The station was extremely dirty from all the brake dust (like any other area of the subway that's not regularly cleaned) so if you get the chance to go wear old clothes! We were able to walk down one of the trackways to the end; the TA had cleaned up the area a bit and installed temporary lights for us but unless you came equipped with high speed film and a sturdy tripod there still wasn't enough light for good photography in the tunnel. The station photographed reasonably well with my point'n'shoot, however. There aren't any pictures on this web site, unfortunately; if someone has some good ones they would be willing to share I suspect that the site owner would be glad to include them on the Disused and Abandoned Stations page. As I recall, mine in the station are reasonably well lit but not composed very well, and as for the attempts I made in the tunnel... let's not discuss those!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thank you for sharing your story on the subject.
While we're on the subject of the never-used Roosevelt Ave. station, I was curious about its specific location. I know it's on the mezzanine level, above the active Queens line, and I presume it's off the Jamaica-bound end. If I'm coming down the stairs to the mezzanine from the bus terminal after getting off the Q-33, I assume that if I turn left at the token booth and hypothetically keep going straight, I'd eventually reach the never-used station, right? Or am I way off track, so to speak?
Hello. I am not from the city and have a few questions about the D line and going to the Fordham Ave. stop. I am going to college here and would like to know a little about getting around. First off, about how long a ride is this from middle Manhattan? Second, how safe is this ride at any time of the day, and is the immediate area of the walk from the stop to the campus bad? Thirdly, is there a C train that takes you to this stop? Any comments are appreciated.
It is about a half hour from 34th Street-6th Avenue, which is midtown.
The C used to run there during the rush hour but doesn't any more. It has been replaced by the B, so the only service that runs on the Concourse line is Sixth Avenue. Change from the C train to the D train at either 59th-Columbus Circle or at 145th Street.
As far as safety is concerned, while I can't vouch for the safety of the local streets, the Concourse line is just as safe as any other subway line. Observe the rules of common-sense subway safety that are posted in many stations. I wouldn't travel alone there after
11 PM, but then again I wouldn't travel many of the outer lines alone after 11 PM either. The trains they run are R-68, which means that the end doors are locked. If you don't feel safe, ride in the fourth or fifth car, that is where the conductor is located.
Wayne
Wayne answered the question about the subway ride itself. As far as the walk from Fordham Rd. (not Ave.) "D" station to the Fordham campus, it is about a ten minute walk, and is downhill all the way. Fordham Rd. is a major through street (part of U.S. route 1) and well lit, so the walk is pretty safe. The Bx12 bus also runs along Fordham Rd., so you can use the free Metrocard transfer from the subway to the bus, which will let you off right across the street from the Third Ave. entrance to the campus.
The FASTEST way between the Fordham campus and midtown though is by Metro-North railroad. The Fordham RR station is directly adjacent to the campus, and the scheduled running time to Grand Central is 18 minutes. But trains only run once or twice an hour, and the ride is several times the price of a subway ride.
The school also provides free shuttle vans for students and faculty between its Bronx and Manhattan (Lincoln Center area) campuses.
Hi Matt!
I went to Fordham and Wayne and Dan pretty much gave you the low down. However, the intercampus van is not free. It is now $2.00 one way, but very much worth it!
In general, we always traveled in groups if we took the D train or went off campus after dark. It's no secret that some students that wandered off campus alone or even with one other person during late hours had some bad experiences. This isn't to scare anyone, but just use street smarts and be aware of what's around you, as you would do anywhere in the city at night. I had a safe and pleasant four years at Fordham, and I took the D train and went off campus to adjacent neighborhoods. It's a great place! I myself preferred the van or the Metro-North, because it was more convenient. Good Luck!
as said earlier the D is about 10 walk from campus. The 4 trains is maybe a 3 minutes walk beyond that. I have walked to and from both of these stops late at night with no problems. You just have to use common sense-dont go alone. The university also runs a security shuttle every 30 min starting at 10pm that stops at the D (but not the 4) You'll find yourself taking the subway far more than the van or metro north. Its cheaper, it goes more place (anywhere vs. GCT or lincoln center) and it it hard to get a seat on the van (you have to sighn up early) on nights and weekends. The subway is the cheapest and most convient way to get to anywhere in manhattan
if you have ay other questions just ask
THREE OR FOUR MONTHS AGO I SAW A R62 WITHOUT BOTH NOSE STANDING WITH WORK CARS AT E180ST ON #2 AND #5 TRAIN AND I WAS THINKING IN MY MIND THAT TRAIN CAME FROM UNION SQ WRECK???? WHAT THE NUMBER OF THAT TRAIN???? HOW MANY R62 HAVE BEEN WRECK OR NOT IN SERVICE??? I KNOW FOUR R62 HAVE BEEN WRECK. IT THERE IS ANY R62 THAT WRECK IN UNION SQ IN THE YARDS OR SCRAPS?
That may have been #1435 or #1436, both of which suffered end damage in the Union Square wreck.
R62 (and R62A) I know of that are out of service:
#1435 (end damage - 5th car Union Sq. wreck)
#1436 (end damage - 4th car Union Sq. wreck)
#1437 (split in half crosswise-1st car Union Sq. wreck)
#1439 (end,side and roof side damage-2nd car Union Sq. wreck)
#1440 (end and massive side impact damage-3rd car Union Sq.wreck)
#1696 (out of service status unknown)
#1909 (side impact damage-Hunts Point Ave.incident)
By the way - no need to use all capital letters (we consider that to be shouting).
Wayne
What the gentlemen saw was a pump car made from a spare R62 shell. There are 3 pump cars in the system, assigned to work trains. Pump cars are utilized for pumping water out of the subway system. A watermain break on 7th Av will give this work train more priority than anything else as it will be responsible for bringing the water level in the tunnel to a minimum. The cars in the Union Square Accident have not been rebuilt to my knowledge. The two halves of 1437 are sitting at Concourse Yard. As for R62a 1696, I will investigate.
-Constantine
I am curious about #1696 for two reasons:
1. I haven't seen it yet.
2. I saw the following bunch on the #6 Thursday
1700-1699-1698-1697 (I was sure i'd see it..) then...#1743!
As for the spare shells, whose shells were they?
Wayne :o)
Well, these shells came straight from the manufacturer, Kawasaki. The TA probably specified to the car builder what they wanted to do with the spare shells, and the answer was THREE PUMP CARS COMING UP! Of course attached to the pumps are demotored R17s, 21s, 22s. Dave has apicture of one of the cars on this site. Here is a list of the pump equipment:
PC01-PC03 Pump Cars (spare R62s shells)
R17 6899
R21 7121
R22 7629
these and 6 other R Types are designated Reach Cars.
1696? Well she hasn't been banged up, so she's got to be on the road somewhere. Cars on the 6 aren't usually in any order.
-Constantine
Hmmm. The last R-17 of the batch. Interesting.
They must be running single R-62As on the 6. Speaking of which, how many of those dudes are going to remain single? They'll have to keep some of them that way if they want to continue to run 9-car trains on the 3 and 11-car trains on the 7 after our beloved Redbirds leave the nest.
AS far as single cabs on the on the No. 1/9 and 6 lines they will all
be wide cabs so they can try One Person Train Operation especaly on the No. 6 Midnights. On the No. 1 line the transverce cabs are linked
in 5 car units like the No. 4 Line.
Steve,
The R62As are single right now, at least on the 6, but the 1 is a different story. The TA wants to convert as much as they can to 5 car sets. I'm sure a group will stay single especially if you have to worry about the car assignments on the Shuttle, the 3, and the 7. BUT, the R142s are coming. These cars can be reconfigured into 4, 5, or 6 car sets. Depending on where the R142s are going to be assigned, they might be able to run on the 3 or 7.
-Constantine Steffan
The R-62s blink on and off
R62 doesn't blink on and off.
Pump Cars PC01, PC02 and PC03 (R-65) were built in 1985 by New York Railway Corp. for $555,646 each. According to "Revenue & Non-Revenue Car Drawing" Book, the car bodies were built by Bombardier (not Kawasaki).
Main Pump = 480 gallons per minute (250' head) with 58 HP motor
Horizontal Pump = 380 GPM (250' head) with 50 HP motor
Discharge Hose is 12" diameter X 27,000 feet....
Sorry Steve, I wasn't sure which company made them. I knew for certain that they were spare R62s, I just didn't know their specs. What about the Reach Cars(R17/21/22)? Can you tell me what their exact functions are?
-Constantine
P.S. 480 gallons per minute? That's an awful lot of water!!!
The reach cars are not covered in either version of the Record Drawing books I have. Their primary use is to permit the pump car to be used effectively while keeking the locomotive out of harm's way (so to speak).
I did find some interesting info on the original pump car #30128 (R-3). It was built in 1932 by Magor Car Corp and was able to be used on all 3 divisions after unification. Original # was 56, changet to 20128 in 1966. The interesting part is that it carried sixty 50' sections of 4" hose for discharge but despite the restrictive size of the hose, it could pump an almost unbelievable 2,000 GPM (250' head) using a 250 HP pump motor.
480GPM a lot? No way! As someone who follows fire trucks, anything less than 1000gpm is just 'mediocre' If the pump car can only do 480gpm, they may as well scrap it, because a single fire truck can outpump it....
-Hank
Well Hank, I don't know! This is not a fire truck is it? The pump cars are for draining out the water, not for hosing a fire down, otherwise for every fire the TA would use the damn things. This information was given to me by Steve. Check with him if you have any questions.
-Constantine
I mention it only because FDNY frequently pumps out basements of buildings when related to a fire, main break, or severe (life-threatening) flooding. They can clear out a lot of water much faster than 450gpm. My next question would be, how many pumps are on the pump car?
-Hank
Check the previous posts by Steve.
-Constantine
I re-checked the book and it does say 480 GPM. However, it also says @ 250 ft. head. If we are gonna compare the 2, we are comparing apples and oranges. To keep it in perspective, 250 feet of head would be like a fire truck pumping water up 25 stories while maintaining that 480 GPM flow. I would suspect that even the FDNY Super Pumper can't sustain that.
I'd have to check with a couple of sources from FDNY (if they even REMEMBER the SuperPumper, which was retired in the late 70s in favor of several engines with larger standard pumps) But I'll get more detailed stats on the pumping capacity for a bit better comparison.
-Hank
I read in a local Philly paper(The Westside Weekly-WestsidePA@aol.com) of an unfortunate event that occurred on January 7.
A 7 year old girl, who lived near 54th and Market and attended school
about three miles away got on the 'G' bus to go home. She got on to find that her tokens were gone. The driver ordered her off and she was stranded in snow and cold with no ride home.
Fortunately, she told a nearby police officer who gave her the money to ride home.
When the girl's mother found out, she went to SEPTA to find the bus driver, but was unsuccessful.
SEPTA came out to saythat, especially for kids, they will issue an emergency fare in inclement weather for passengers who have misplaced their fares. This is true because it has happened to me, but it was no consolation for the girl and her mother, who is still angry.
My question is, are there policies in the NYCTA concerning situations like this? Do they issue emergency fares?
[A 7 year old girl, who lived near 54th and Market and attended school
about three miles away got on the 'G' bus to go home. She got on to find that her tokens were gone. The driver ordered her off and she was stranded in snow and cold with no ride home.
Fortunately, she told a nearby police officer who gave her the money to ride home.
My question is, are there policies in the NYCTA concerning situations like this? Do they issue emergency fares?]
I find it rather surprising that a parent would allow a 7-year-old to ride alone on a city bus. There seems to be more or less a consensus that 11 is the minimum age at which children can stay home alone (note that school before- and after-care programs frequently run up to age 10). Clearly, a child who cannot legally be left home alone should not be riding a city bus alone.
(Yes, I have heard that 6-year-olds routinely ride to school alone on the Tokyo subway, but things are different here).
In this situation it may not have been a SEPTA policy but the bus operators policy. In NYCT we are told but not officially that school age children who may have lost or misplaced their passes should be allowed to ride for free after receiving the "stern warning speech". It is rather heartless to do that to a 7 year old while it may be more appropriate for a 17 year old.
SEPTA - serious about change (meaning, if you don't have it, you're not gonna ride!?). TWU Local 234 - serious about ticking off passengers? I think this is a case of driver judgement and a poor choice at that. Why would an operator turn a child away? Unfortunately, this is the type of attitude frequently encountered with SEPTA operating personnel. It's a job, not an adventure.
Before we generalize, though, here's an example of a good SEPTA operator. I was riding a different line to work Friday at a different time than I normally ride. The operator greeted a blind passenger, who must have been a regular, and advised him where to sit, etc. The operator even had a bag for this passenger. The operator was courteous, pulled to the curb (something few SEPTA operators do), called out stops (ditto), lowered the kneeling device several times for older riders (ditto), and operated in a safe and courteous manner. When we reached Center City, the bus was getting crowded and was taking on several passengers at each stop on Chestnut St. When we reached 16th St (Jack, you may have guessed that this was a Route 9 run), the operator left his seat, assisted the blind passenger off the bus, and led him to the Route 2 stop across 16th St. This was probably a violation of SEPTA policy, especially since the operator left the transfers in the cutters.
When the operator returned to the bus, about a half-dozen riders were waiting to board. One, a middle-aged woman, began to complain about being in a hurry and blabbed a "why did you leave your post to help that man, I don't have all day you know" speech. The woman sat next to me, and I told her that the man being assisted was blind. She still did not care - the bus was late and she was in a hurry and the blind man was not her problem. Maybe you can't blame operators for not wanting to be nice to riders?!
It unfortunately doesn't pay to be kind and helpful anymore.
I stopped using SEPTA buses after the strike unless in EXTREME circumstances. They're too slow, even in clear traffic, drivers aren't very helpful, know little if anything about the basic CITY-SERVING rail system(El/Subway/Trolleys) and absolutely nothing about RR unless you're in the suburbs(and only the Main Line at that).
The only route I could ever stand was the 21, one of the few express run buses, but Idon't know if they still do it.
Makes one think they just don't care!
IMHO, if NYC(sorry, just comparison by reputation)has you beat in ANY type of customer assistance(which isn't to say NYC is a hostile place-I'd certainly rather live there, and not just for the subway) then you need SERIOUS help.
I saw one of the best bumper stckers yesterday since "Wife and dog missing-reward for dog".
It read: "Railfans don't die, they just lose track".
While visiting Seattle, WA this weekend I observed two 50's-era trolleys running along the harbor (I assume this is a tourist area). How extensive is the trolley line? Is it just through the harbor/dock area or does it extend elsewhere?
I also saw the monorail running near the Space Needle. The monorail looked like the one that used to run at Disneyland. Someone told me the ride lasts all of about 90 seconds. Was this left over from the World's Fair?
> I also saw the monorail running near the Space Needle. The monorail
> looked like the one that used to run at Disneyland. Someone told me
> the ride lasts all of about 90 seconds. Was this left over from the
> World's Fair?
Sure is. In fact, there's a proposal that was brought about by a "common citizen" (forget his name) to expand rapid transit in Seattle. While no one took it seriously, it passed in the general election. The voters didn't pass funding required for roads and bridges but they did pass the rapid transit proposal. It seems to have items in it where lawmakers are penalized if certain things don't happen by a certain time.
The recent edition of the New Electric Railway Journal had an article about it.
--Mark
Ah, yes, the infamous Monorail Initiative. The proposed monorail system in the initiative is quite specific about where the lines are to go and where stations are to be located; there is some flexibility, but not very much. The initiative was not a generic requirement to build "a" system, but to built "THE" system, spelled out in detail, devised by the "common citizen" himself (a taxi driver with his only transport experience being fighting Seattle traffic every day).
The problem with the initiative is that it was a proposed solution to a non-problem. The government was NOT ignoring the transit issue: there was already in place a detailed plan ("Sound Transit," a pun on sound, meaning practical, and Puget Sound) for the construction of light rail and commuter rail lines in metropolitan Seattle/Tacoma. At the time of the initiative vote, the downtown Transit Tunnel had already been built as the keystone of the new system, and preliminary work had been done to prepare existing freight railway trackage for the commuter rail service, so the plan was not mere ink on paper.
Now, there are two competing, and some say duplicative, systems in metro Seattle: the Sound Transit Agency and the Seattle Monorail Corporation. This duplication came not from the mind of some bureaucrat, as is often the case, but from one activist and the grass-root support he drummed up. Sometimes, the "vox populi" is not "vox dei" but vox humbug!
I believe the transit tunnel was built for buses initially but was also to be shared with light rail at a future date.
Sometimes people put the mode before the need for the service. Transit works best when done in conjunction with land use planning. You shouldn't do one without the other. It is to hard to fix problems with transit solutions when a poor urban design has stacked the deck against success. Seattle has a chance to get it right though.
The Seattle Trolley is known as Rt 99 Waterfront Streetcar and it is run by Seattle Metro Transit,(606-684-1441). It is about two miles long with 9 stations and uses 600 dc trolley wire.
Redbird
The trolley line mostly stays along Puget Sound. Towards its southern end it turns in under the Alaskan Way viaduct, goes past Pioneer Square, and ends up near (but not in) the International District bus tunnel station and the King St. Amtrak station.
Thanks for the information, David and Redbird!
The trolley has been in operation since the 80's. I prefered the freight line that it replaced, which ran along the waterfront under the viaduct until the city made them close it down. It seems the Burlington Northern (or was it UP?) ran a train of toxic chemicals through the streets of Seattle at the same time about 30,000 people were exiting the Kingdome. After years of trying to get the trains rerouted around and under the city, this was the last straw.
One other note, the Queen of England rode the monorail sometime in the 80s. So I guess if its good enough for the Queen, its good enough for the little people. (I didn't make this up. Check the Seattle Times.)
Dear Sir/Madam:
The Manhattan Bridge's south side tracks are currently closed
for renovation until 2003. When they reopen the south side tracks,
why would they possibly close the north side tracks for reconstruc-
tion? They closed the north side tracks in 1982, 1985-1988 and in
mid 1995 for reconstruction. Why are they doing it again?
Also why is it taking so long for the south side tracks to
be reconstructed? The north side tracks took a shorter period of time to reconstruct. Will there be BMT N or Q Service on the south side
when the south side tracks reopen? What will service look like when
the south side tracks reopen?
James Li
Dear Sir/Madam:
The Manhattan Bridge's south side tracks are currently closed
for renovation until 2003. When they reopen the south side tracks,
why would they possibly close the north side tracks for reconstruc-
tion? They closed the north side tracks in 1982, 1985-1988 and in
mid 1995 for reconstruction. Why are they doing it again?
Also why is it taking so long for the south side tracks to
be reconstructed? The north side tracks took a shorter period of time to reconstruct. Will there be BMT N or Q Service on
the south side
when the south side tracks reopen? What will service look like when
the south side tracks reopen?
James Li
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The reason why the South side tracks on the bridge and the tracks on the North side in 1995 were closed was because the bridge itself, not the tracks needed to be repaired. The bridge itself is crumbling and
the repairs done are just band-aid approaches to fixing the bridge.
Watch the famous Tacoma Narrows film and then think about the fact that the same guy designed the Manhattan Bridge ):
If the Manhattan Bridge had had the same flexibility as the "galloping gurney", it would have collapsed a long time ago. While I'm not an engineer and don't pretend to be one, I seem to recall that the Tacoma Narrows Bridge had plate girders as a stiffener, with no openings, not to mention a slender, two-lane roadway deck. Consequently, when the wind blew, it pushed against the girders instead of being let through openings, and caused the span to sway with increasing amplitude until the main span tore away. There were other factors as well, one of which was the fact that that bridge was built on a shoestring budget - something like $6.4 million, so it was likely they skimped on a lot of things. The George Washington Bridge also had a slender roadway deck before the lower level was added, but it was eight lanes wide, plus the bridge was built like a BMT standard. When it opened, they had two platoons of soldiers march across it, one from each end, at the same time IN STEP, and nothing happened.
Totally different design!!!. I would be more concerned about the Whitestone, Tacoma's twin.
...which did have swaying problems when it was first built. They made the adjstments after that, but keeping it unchanged would have given bored Mets fans in the upper level at Shea on a windy afternoon something to look at.
Dear Sir/Madam:
Before the Chrystie Street connection onpened, what kind of
subway cars ran on the IND Lines? Because today the IND-BMT R-32s
and IND-BMT R-38s from 1964-1966 run on the A, C, E and G Lines,
which were the former IND A, CC, E and GG Lines. I saw a lot of
pictures from the 1970s and showed the IND-BMT R-27s and R-30s
on lines such as the IND AA, B, CC and D Lines. I'm wondering if
those R-27s, R-30s, R-32s and R-38s were ever on the IND lines
before the Chrystie Street connection opened?
James Li
In a word, no, except for the R-38s, which were initially assigned to the E and F lines. Prior to the opening of the Chrystie St. connection, IND routes were served exclusively by the venerable R-10s on the A and the R-1/9s on the rest of the lines. The R-38s arrived in 1966, one year before the connection opened.
The R-27s, R-30s, and R-32s were all initially assigned to the BMT Southern Division (Brighton, Sea Beach, 4th Ave., and West End) routes. The Chrystie St. connection merged the IND and BMT divisions; after its opening, the R-32s were assigned to the AA, B, and D lines on the IND, and the N on the BMT. The R-27s and R-30s were distributed among the Southern and Eastern Division; some ran on the AA from time to time. Over the years, these cars were used on virtually every IND and BMT route. The R-38s were displaced from the E and F lines when the slant R-40s arrived in 1968.
There is a bit of a story as to how the R-38's came to be on the E and F. In the late summer of 1966 the IND was experiencing a high incidence of breakdowns, this was especially true as regards the Queens IND and the Jamaica Yard was packed with bad order equiptment.A total of twenty R-38's had been delivered from the St Louis Car Company and had not yet begun revenue service. They were promptly placed in service on August 23,1966. One trainset on the E and one on the F. Help was also forthcoming from the BMT. 32 R-16's were placed in service on the GG, having had Continental,Smith-9th and GG added to their rolls signs. It was quite a treat at that time to see R-16's someplace other than the Eastern Section of the BMT.And how you may ask were the R-16's replaced on the BMT. Well several Standards were given a stay of execution and taken off deathrow at the Coney Island Scrapline and placed back in revenue service with the "S"(for scrap) painted over. There were even articles in the newspapers about the R-38's being pressed into service.
Regards, Redbird
Actually, there was quite a bit of mixing of R40 and R38 equipment on the "E" and "F" back in 1969. The R38's didn't shuffle off until 1970 or so, when the last of the R42s arrived (this little bunch of 4900s was assigned to Jamaica yard). I saw them mixed in with R16s on the "EE" and "GG" lines, and a few persisted on the "E" and "F". By 1970, all the Slants had been delivered and they were pretty much the mainstays of the "E" and "F" lines, with R-6s mixed in for good measure.
BTW - R27 and R30 could be seen on the IND prior to Chrystie Street - they made up the bulk of the "RR" fleet, which journeyed to 71st Continental Avenue during the daytime hours.
And one final note to Mr.Li - the R32 are for all intents and purposes gone from the "G" except maybe as a put-in extra train. Steve would be able to confirm or refute this. We thoroughly canvassed the "G" last Thursday and saw every train in service, and they were 100% R46.
Wayne
You're right - the R-27s and R-30s assigned to the RR did run to Continental Ave. via the Queens line. I was thinking from a purely IND standpoint in terms of IND routes A thru HH and not necessarily IND trackage.
As I've said earlier, the only time I ever saw the R-38s on the E was during rush hours back when it ran to Euclid Ave. and the Rockaways via the Fulton St. express tracks. I can only imagine what a thrill that was! Back in the late 60s, I very rarely went into the city on weekdays. On Saturdays, E trains were either R-6s or slant R-40s.
On weekdays, mornings and afternoons, occasionally there are G trains coming as R-32. You see, this is not permanent. They are all from the Jamaica Yard therefore they are mixed, not totally but somewhat except the F. E sometimes come as R-46 while some G and R sometime come as R-32s.
G trains are 6-car R-46s. There are 14 2-car R-46 units. 6206-07 is an A-B unit (the only one) followed by 13 A-A units. Since G service requires 12 trains, if more than two 2-car units are out of service, then R-32s must be used. Because of the placement of the C/Rs boards, however, the C/R will only be in the correct position if the G uses 10-car R-32s.
On the R line, the car assignments by Operations Planning call for 3 R trains made up of R-32s. Since the E line gets priority for R-32 cars and there are usually not enough of them to go around, R-32s are rarely available for R service.
Isn't there an A-B set of R-44's around somewhere.
Redbird
Would that account for the two missing numbers I show -
5480 and 5481?
Also - is 5402 still an odd fellow (without a mate)?
Wayne
Wayne: It just might. There were originally 300 R-44's or 75 A-B-B-A
sets. 12 R-44's or three sets(388-399) were exiled to Staten Island and havn't been heard from since. Ten cars were scrapped before GOH, 5 A's 120,132,176,248,288 and 5 B's 109,215,227,315,385. This leaves us with 139 A's and 139 B's for a total of 278 which divdes into 69.5 A-B-B-A sets.
Best wishes,Redbird
I will have the R-44 X-reference (old # - new#) by the end of the week. Hope it will clear up some of the confusion.
Thanks! I'm eager to find out what #5282's former number was so I can mark it as scrapped in Master Numbers Books #3 and #4.
Wayne
Does the R68 ran on Queens Blvd line on G,R,F,E??
No. Those routes use R-46s except for the E which uses R-32s. The R-68s poke along on the B, D, and N lines.
> Ten cars were scrapped before GOH, 5 A's 120,132,176,248,288
> and 5 B's 109,215,227,315,385.
Does this mean the R44 qualifies as the unluckiest fleet? :-) 10 cars in about, what, 12 to 14 years? That's a lot of damage.
David: Indeed it does indicate a high rate of breakage. I don't know if the R-44's are collision prone or simply can't take the stress.I believe that one or two of the above car shells were used at the Fire Department's Training School, though I can't say if it was the old school on Welfare Island or the current one.
Regards,Redbird
From: Staten Island
RE: R44s 388-399
We're happy. Wish you were here. See you in the scrap heap :)
-R44 Louie
The R44 running on the SIR (GOH 1990 by the TA) will either be the first of the R44 to go to scrap, or the very last. Just realizing that these cars are 25 years old, 9 years removed from a GOH, and the interior walls are cracking. Good thing they're not structural.
One odd thing about them, though. Some A cars have developed black plywood boxes beneth the seats behind the cab. Any ideas what they're for?
-Hank
Please excuse my ignorance, but is the C/R board tied in with OPTO? If it's in the center of the station, would it make any difference if G trains of R-32s were 6 or 8 cars long?
Since there are no door controls in the #1 cab of R-32s, it would definitely make a difference. On an 8-car train, the C/R would have to operate 5 and 3. On a 6 car train he'd operate 3 and 3. Now 5 and 3 would be the same as operating 5 and 5 on a 10-car train unless the conductor needs to change his operating position due to mechanical failure. Of course, a conductor can not safely change positions on a 10-car train because he would also be "off the boards".
It's the R40 and R42 that don't have door controls in the number one cab.
I honestly had no idea that the #1 cabs on the R-32s didn't have door controls. Was this always the case, or did it come about during GOH?
Thanks for setting me straight!
How hard would it be for SEPTA to implement pay-per-ride cards, like the pay-per-ride MetroCards? Card readers are already in use system-wide - what additional infrastructure would be required? Would it be worthwhile for SEPTA? ...for the riders?
It would not be very hard to do. The problem is that it's different and, therefore, SEPTA would likely have no interest.
You're absolutely right, of course. But I wonder just exactly what would be required. How hard would it be to program the system to recognize the cards? At first, they could just sell the cards, the way they sell the 11-for-10 cards in NYC, then they could add MVM-style machines accross the system over time.
Then the other thing to look at is - would it be worth it? Is our system big enough to justify it? Would SEPTA save a nice chunk of change if they got rid of tokens like NYC?
Just some thoughts...
SEPTA's subway turnstiles are only able to read information off the weekly and monthly TransPasses and TrailPasses, but are not configured as such to "deduct" fares off a multi-ride farecard.
Turnstiles in operation in New York City and Chicago, on the other hand, are programmed to recognise weekly and monthly passes as well as deducting fares and recording transfers.
I want to know how many work cars (formaly passengers cars)in the yards?? It there any R12 to R46 work cars?? Also why they keep a wreck or retire passenger cars in the yards for long time??
There are plenty of work cars to be found at the present time. Car classes R12-22 can be found on a number of work trains. Once passenger cars with nice, shiny interiors and exteriors these cars are now painted a shade of yellow and black. They don't carry passengers, rather, they carry work equipment. The IRT (numbered route)cars are more preferred because being the smaller size, means that they can travel virtually everywhere. Car classes R26-68 are currently carrying passengers so none of these are work cars with the exception of an R33 8885, also known as the traction gel car. She lost her companion 8884, sometime earlier to an accident outside of the Franklin Av station in 1997. Another exception to the rule is that the R30s which were in revenue service not too long ago were made into work cars.
As for cars being wrecked, well there's a good reason why they aren't disposed of immediately. A car that's been in an accident has to undergo litigation. This means that passengers who have been in a train related accident sue for damages and the car serves as a piece of evidence, that an accident occurred.
So if you see a wrecked car in the yard somewhere, it's being held for investigation, or just maybe that car will get restoration.
-Constantine Steffan
Constantine: do you know if any of the old IND R1 Work Motor cars are still in use today?
Somewhere in my photo collection is R1 #556 at the Coney Is. yards that I took during the famous 1979 open house.
Doug
None of the pre-WWII cars are in any thing other than Mike Hanna's Jurassic Park down at Coney Island.
It was explained to me that the wrecks of car classes still in service aren't scrapped because of the contractual bidding process. When the entire class goes, then the wrecks will too.
That's right Erik! Mike Hanna's Jurrasic Park of R1/9s are awaiting restoration (some day, I hope). I hope one of these days maybe the AB Standards will complete the restoration process and come out on the road.
Doug: There are no R1/9 work motors anymore. They were phased out as the newer R Types were put in to work service in the 1980s. By the way, do you know if NYCH is using old TA equipment for operations?
-Constantine
Constantine: I spied what looked like to me to be an IRT work-train flat car (w/wooden sides) along 1st Ave. near 43rd St. on my trip on this past Friday. Along the same Ave. further down was a train of LIRR coaches awaiting scrapping (obviously getting phased out due to the double-decker cars now in use on the LIRR Mainline).
BTW, if anyone read this past Saturday's Newsday -- there was a large article on page A18 in regards to the former BEDT steam loco #16. It used to reside over at the Bush Terminal yard (I have a good shot of it that I took back in Nov.) The article was about the loco having been donated by NYCH to the Riverhead Railroad Museum (on the east end of LI) where she is due for a resto and then exhibition on the site. Sounds like alittle bit of Brooklyn rail history will live on into the 21st Century.
cya Doug
Does anyone know the size of turnouts in the New York City subway? Are they #4, #6, #8 and #10? What are the purpose of guard chairs?
Are there any Motorman reading this message? Have any of you operated a flip-over controller in your career?
Anyone seen those funky air switches located between the rail on the IRT at East 180th Street Yard?
Air Switches? what air switches at 180 st . like to know and see.
Junior Motorman asks what air switches are at 180th Street. The White Plains Road has air switches operated from two hoses from CP valves. There are FUNKY air operated switches at E. 180th Street yard which are mounted between the running rails on a track. Also, guard chairs protect switch points.
The switches you describe are unusual and are manufactured by Union Switch & Signal and are referred to as a Style MT machine. MT stands stands for Mid Track and is mounted between the running rails. The switch points are not Samson Points and are offset from one another. The MT machine has a circuit controller and a motion plate operated from a double acting air cylinder. There may be some left in E. 180th Street Yard. The style MT switch was designed in 1917 for the Interborough Rapid Transit Company. The double piston rack and pinion A10 air switches are commonly used on NYCT.
Excellent question asked!!!
Turnouts....mostly 10s and 12s, I think, but I'd have to refer that
question to a NYCT track guru.
Yes, I've operated a flip-over controller. Not on NYCT trackage
though. Not too many people still around who have.
What's so funny about air-operated switches? Pretty standard
for US&S territory.
"Guard chairs"....:) you must be from across the pond. The guard
rail is mounted on a special elongated tie plate that elevates
it about3/4" above the running rail. The running rail is also
spiked or pandrol'd to the same plate. There is also a
spacer block placed in the fishing between the guard and
running rail to maintain the prescribed flangeway (1 3/4", I think)
There is something FUNKY about air operated switches mounted between the running rails of the same track and not outside the track. I believe only a few are left in E. 180th Street Yard. Guard chairs are unique to New York and MBTA. Cleveland Track Materials manufacturers special trackwork for New York today.
There are #4, #6, #8, #10 and #15 track layouts in the New York system.
I was looking at Illustrated Subway cars Roster and looking at new R142. I look like almost R110a and what happen to R110a??? I haven't seen R110a for a while for year now and the MTA got rid of R110a?? All i want to know when the R142 arrives to IRT and what line the R142 going to??? P.S I Really like R110a running again
I'll bet that the R142 will run on the Flushing Line because the old R33's and R36's operate there.
Seeing that the MTA is not aggresive enough in constructing new links, I have decided to create a system that does not depend on public funding. My first line would run from New Rochelle to Staten Island via Second Avenue. It would be about 44 miles long and would be the backbone of my new system.
I plan to use a unique system called the HighRoad system (www.otg-inc.com), which is a monorail that can run in two directions on one guideway. This cuts the cost of building a rail line by more than half. My project's first line would come in under $3 billion and would still allow a Second Avenue SUBWAY to be built.
If you have any suggestions on how I can get funding, or have a particular corridor in mind for a monorail, please let me know by posting it here
Nice idea, but as you know the political bigwigs would never allow it to be built.
Even our Prez "Wild" Bill Clinton himself originally had talked about a cross-continental Meglev system that got lost among other details since his first term in office. Not to mention the former NY Gov. Mario Cuomo and his high-speed monorail concept to run between NYC and Albany for Congresspersons and the general public. Again, more talk than action.
We all have dreams. That's what makes life living.
Sorry if it looked like I rained on your parade.
Doug
And now Mr. Bill probably wouldn't remember saying that.
That depends on what your definition of "remember" is:)
Well, there IS a big difference between monorails, which are a more or less proven tech, and maglevs, which are a pipe dream at best, will remain a pipedream for a LONG time, and are probbably hopelessly impractical anyway. It'll take MAJOR breakthroughs in a number of fields, noteably superconductors, before maglevs are anywhere near practical for more than short short demo runs. Yes, I know the Germans have a Maglev ready, or in, passenger service, but it's a sjort system, and probbably a very expensive one at that. The British run the Concorde still. Doesn't mean SSTs are practical, profitable, or useful.
As for funding a system, 3 billion is an amazilngly steep price, so you'd not be able to get private funding, nor local. Unless you could push political buttons, federal funding would also be hard to do. The trouble is, no matter how many riders you get, such a system would NEVER be close to profitable, as you would need more than 3 billion riders (assuming $1.00 fare) to cover the costs of the system, and that doesn't include MOW, power, operations, etc. Figure 200 million riders / year at best, factor in operatioons, assume a $1.25 fare, etc, and you'd be looking at at least 10 years to turn a profit. If it could even be done.
Better idea: Wait until the federal gov cuts loose slAmtrak, and they go under. Propose a high speed rail system between two cities where there is a lot of end to end traffic. Like down in Texas. Assume 1 billion to build it, run trains at 150 - 180 mph. Charge about 2/3 what thje airlines do between those cities, or, like $100 round trip. Figure about 2/3 of the cost is upkeep, ops, etc, leaving about 30 bucks as payback. 30 million rides later, you've paid for the system - interest. You'd get fgederal funding, state funding, publicity, and you'd make back your initail investment in 10 years. Then you could lop your fares by 25% and rake in the profits. Seriously, high speed rail is a profitable thing, just not when Amtrak is doing it (though i hear the NEC actually makes money now...)
Bonus: Just about everyone likes "TGV Style" trains. People would support the building of such a system. High speed rail is where the $$$ (and publicity) is.
Has there ever been a proposal to build such a system like that?
High-speed intracity rail would certainly be nice for a run between, say, Houston and Dallas, L.A. and San Diego or NYC and Philly, but for longer voyages, like Amtrak's Silver Star to Miami(does it go up to NYC or Beantown?), the long ride is the better ride.
The Texas system would have linked Houston/Dallas-Fort Worth/San Antonio with high speed rail, but as of now it's been put on hold because no one can as of yet assure the benefits will outweigh the costs (Plus American and Southwest Airlines fought like hell to keep it from being built)
Florida just put their own high speed rail program on hold. I'm assuming the Bush brothers didn't do many railroad trips when they were growing up in Houston.
(Where to get financing)? Just call your company Monorail.com. You can issue an IPO and get $3 billion in the blink of an eye, and you won't have to show a profit for years and years. Just do it before the crash.
Though privately-financed transit systems have been notoriously difficult to finance & build, it's not impossible. Non-recourse project financing (i.e. loans which depend for repayment on cash flow from the ongoing operation [i.e. the monorail] rather than investor creditworthiness) is a possibility.
You would need to demonstrate to potential lenders:
1. There is a sufficient equity investment (30% or so, ie. $600M) from the project sponsors (i.e. you and your associates). Likely associates to form a consortium would be the construction companies you expect to build the system, rolling-stock providers, real estate developers, private equity funds, etc.)
2. The project sponsors know what they're doing. This is why, as mentioned above, you would want world class institutions/firms involved (companies like Bechtel on the construction/engineering side), Siemens, Bombardier, etc. with you.
3. The project can not only repay the loans with a comfortable margin within say, a maximum of 15 years, but that the sponsors will undertake to guarantee that they will perform in their role as contractors with penalties payable when they don't (i.e. delay liquidated damages).
4. Revenue projections based on expected numbers of users and fares charged are reasonable & robust.
5. All necessary permits & licenses are in hand before construction begins & loan funding happens.
If you are really serious, the project finance dept. of any large bank such as Citibank, Chase, or Deutsche would be able to provide more information, but you'd be better off lining up your partners in the venture first.
Finally, since making the whole thing work financially solely from farebox receipts is usually difficult, transportation projects (such as Hong Kong's airport link) have typically relied on sale of development rights above and beneath the stations along the route to generate extra cash flow.
If you think anything even remotely approaching what you have in mind can ever be built through government handouts or 'funding', you've been smoking some very potent stuff.
(Business plans, partners, cash flow projections). This advice applies to time periods when sound finance is in order, at the low point of the finance cycle, when most of the people bankers know at the country club aren't making loans either so they wouldn't dare. At the high point, when everyone else at the country club is making loans at ridiculous terms you need to match to stay in business, different rules apply. Just be sure to call it monorail.com, and ask to borrow at least $100 million (if you ask for a $2,000 loan they will think you are not creditworthy).
[Just be sure to call it monorail.com, and ask to borrow at least
$100 million (if you ask for a $2,000 loan they will think you are not creditworthy).]
You won't be able to do that - Monorail Computer Corporation already's got monorail.com. Sorry :-(
I was looking at Cars Wrecked/scrapped while in revenue service and I was looking at the picture of R21/22 #7602 that wreck at Morris Park Ave in 11/24/79. How this happened? #7602 look real bad. Any passengers in that train or just standing on the track while out of service?
Hello. thanks for your imput about Fordham. I have some subway-nonrelated topics about the university I want to ask you, so if you could email me that would be great! My email address is ruffalo@adelphia.net Hope to talk to you soon!
Well, today the new schedules(effective 1/31) were issued everywhere.
For the first time, an M-4 has appeared on the cover of the MFL schedule(it shows a Frankford-bound train leaving Spring Garden St)
There have also been advisories for people bringing bikes on the trains stating "bicycles are permitted on the Market-Frankford Elevated [&] Broad Street subway after 7:00 PM on weekdays......"
The #13 detour is still in effect, otherwise, all is go.
Also, today in Center City, I saw a single MA car exiting the Commuter Tunnel towards 30th Street. Certainly yard-bound, but I've never seen a single unit before.
I am looking for both old and new subway signs. If you have any for sale, or know where to get signs, please let me know. Thanks!
The TA periodically auctions them off, or at least they used to. Some junk shops pick them up and resell them; there's a shed on the north side of Houston Street between Elizabeth and the Bowery that has a bunch of signs discarded from Broadway-Lafayette when that station was renovated, so you could start there.
E-bay auctions has a couple out for bid right now:
go to e-bay.com
search "subway"
They seem to pop up periodically
just what type of subway signs are you looking for? i may be of some assistance.
I am looking for any station sign from inside the station stating the station name(ie. DeKalb Ave.) like the ones on the beams or the long ones on the walls. I especially am looking for the overhead signs when entering the station from the street. You know, the one that says the station and also has the lines it services. I would be interested in any stop, but am especially looking for Canal or Essex St.s You can email me at ruffalo@adelphia.net if you can help me out. thanks!
There was monorail built in the Bronx by Pelham Bay. It was by Bartow Avenue and was short. Anyone know the tail?
[There was monorail built in the Bronx by Pelham Bay. It was by Bartow Avenue and was short. Anyone know the tail?]
There's a picture of the monorail (actually of a derailment thereon) in Stan Fischler's book, _The Subway_. No explanation, but at least you get an idea of what it looked like.
The Pelham Monorail line was opened in 1910 and ran from Pelham Bay Park to City Island. It was funded and built by August P. Belmont.
According to "Trolley Car Treasury", (I am not quoting or citing any part of this text verbatim) the derailment was caused by overloading the car combined with slow speed. The car had a catenary device that looked like three suction cups which drew power from two overhead "rails". It looked to be about 35 or 40 feet long and had rounded ends, with a flat roof.
It does not say when the line was closed, only that it ran for "a few years".
Wayne
Wayne
[According to "Trolley Car Treasury", (I am not quoting or citing any part of this text verbatim) the derailment was caused by overloading the car combined with slow speed. The car had a catenary device that looked like three suction cups which drew power from two overhead "rails". It looked to be about 35 or 40 feet long and had rounded ends, with a flat roof.]
Yep, that description matches the picture in the book. Judging from the picture, it doesn't look like the car sustained much damage in the derailment.
For the full story, see http://www.bronx.com/2_62historyarch.html#anchor141459. I was going to post a message about it, but "Trackwork Phantom" beat me to it!
Peter: Dan Schwartz gave you a good lead on this,I'll try to add to what he said. The monorail ran from what was called the Bartow Station(aka City Island Station) of the NYNH&HRR Harlem River Branch to Marshalls Corner at the WEST end of the bridge to City Island. The monorail did not go to City Island itself. The Bartow Station is located just west of the present intersection of the Pelham Bridge Road(Shore Rd) and the City Island Road.The monorail ran on July 17,1910 when the car turned over on its side because the bolts of the supporting structure were not properly fastened. Service resumed about October 1910 and operated I believe sparadically until March 16,1914. See the August 1995 Bulletin of the ERA New York Division for a complete story,map and diagram of the car. The Bartow Station of the railroad by the way is,or was as of two years ago still standing. The stone walls are intact surrounded by hurricane fencing and the roof was damaged by fire.
Best Wishes,Redbird
The New York City Subway used water to lubricate wheel flanges and rails on curves. What do they use today?
Water is still used. Take a look at the curve north of Fulton St (4/5) and the SOuth Ferry Loop, for example. (City Hall Loop has it too but you cant ride that anymore legally).
--Mark
Has anyone done a study on the ill effects of breathing steel dust in the New York Subway? Maybe it can be sold in a bottle as a sovenuir to tourists coming to New York!!! Remember the Pet Rock and the Furby Doll?
By Popular Demand-- visit BusTalk!
BusTalk
Bligh-me. We've been partitioned!
Well don't think of it like that. I'm sure the split-topic board will attract some bus-heads who wouldn't ordinarily wade thru all the subway and rail transit posts that appear here...
Thank You. Now my wife really hate you. First there Subtalk and now bustalk, when is there time for a man to find time with his wife?..........................oh well she can wait.
Just tell her to watch it --- or we'll discuss this problem at lengthhhhhhhhhhhhh on the new board -
WIFETALK!
Thank you---To David
Steve
Maybe the whole thing should be called SubbuSTalk(pointing out Sub and Bus as the same word.)
I still cannot understand why Septa has token booth clerks at all stations but request only exact change. I think this is acinine. I mean the reason they are there is if there is a special need passenger but they should also be there to make change. What if you only have a $10 bill, I am not putting that in the machine when I only want 2 tokens. Septa's system is horrendous and retarded. Also you have to put the loose change in a seprate slot than your bills at the token booth. How can we get this system changed?
Even more fun - take patco some day. I got stuck IN the system for a while because those museum pieces, I mean turnstiles, couldn't read my card to let me out. Those things have to be at least 60's vintage. Worse, when they mess up, they just flash "Error #", leaving you at the mercy of the customer service phone person, who just tells you to keep feeding the card through.
Oh yeah, Septa's ticket machines change with Suzan Bs. Septa's ticket people don't take them. Septa is truely a bizzare system. I don't think thery even know what they're doing half the time....
The "token clerks" at SEPTA subway stations are not the same as you find in NYC. At most subway stops, these are "cashiers" who only handle fare payment and issuance of transfers. Only at selected subway stops (mainly Center City, 30th St, Olney, and Frankford) do these cashiers sell tokens.
You are correct that something should be done to correct this, but don't hold your breath. SEPTA may be serious about change (i.e. it certainly won't give you any and you better have exact if you want to ride) but nothing is happening along these lines.
On PATCO, at least someone will answer the help phones when you need it. In my experience, the assistance is usually fairly good. PATCO does give Susan B's in its change machines, which are also accepted in the ticket dispensing machines. Once upon a time, PATCO changers gave 3 quarters, 2 dimes and a nickel, and invariably at least one coin would drop out of the change receptacle in the process. Usually (and I often thought this was intentional), the dropping coin would tend to roll either past the turnstiles or bounce through the wrought iron fence into the paid area.
My only beef with PATCO is that 2-trip tickets are not available at the Phila stations, only in those on the NJ portion of the line.
I noticed this afternoon a string of maybe a half-dozen former (?) ConnDOT SPV's in the 30th Street Station coach yard. This is the first day I've seen these (I pass by every day and do not recall them being there yesterday). Maybe they're headed for Amtrak's shops for overhaul? Anyone interested?
I remember riding the SOAC cars on the A train back on July 14,1974.We closely followed a regular Far Rockaway A train and the cars ran very well. When we reached the Rockaway Line the regular A train ran south on the northbound local track in order to stop at Aqueduct Race Track Station. The SOAC train ran south on the regular southbound track and caught up to the regular train so we had two southbound A's proceding side by side down the Rockaway Line, at Howard Beach the regular train went ahead and we followed. The thing I remember was the conforting presence of two transit policemen,one in each car. Back in those days it was a good idea to ride any train that had a policeman on it regardless of where it was going. I hear that the SOAC's are now at Kennebunkport,its too bad they didn't get a chance to see more service.
Redbird
Yes, the SOAC's are at Seashore. Except for faded paint and delaminating windshields, they don't look that different than they did when you rode them, thanks to the Stainless Steel construction. They don't run under their own power now, but every once in awhile they have to be moved. I was lucky to be at Seashore one Saturday morning to witness Boston subway car #0719 (built in 1927) pulling SOAC #2, and snapped a picture of the move. If anyone wants a copy of the pic, just drop me an e-mail.
I remember catching a ride on the SOAC back in fall '74 when it was being put through it's paces on the Brighton Line. It was cool to see a more suburban-like train on the subway system. The first car I recall had airliner-type rail coach seating with wall-to-wall carpeting. The second car outfitted more like the interior of the R-44/46 seating arrangement with a "coffee table" near each end of the car. The interior set-up was abit unrealistic for daily subway service, but would have been nice to see on a "special" limited run train.
I also recall a smoother than usual ride. Too bad the SOAC couldn't stick around!
Doug
I got to ride SOAC when it visited Boston, and was suitably impressed. The layout was not ideal for such operation, but as Boston then operated 2 car trains except at rush, they actually increased capacity when they ran! BTW the SOAC cars are really the last two R-44s with the sloped nose replacing the standard Sundberg-Ferrar end. This was fairly easy to do because of the way the cars were constructed. Once the bodies were complete, the rest of the project was done by other contractors. SOAC-1 and SOAC-2 were the last two cars built by St. Louis Car Co.
SOAC-1 is just about as it was when it ran in NYC. Unfortunately, when it was delivered the trucks were installed reversed, and have to be swapped before the motor leads and air brakes can be connected. With that and some luck (eg: no failed electronics) that car may yet run. SOAC-2 was stripped of its electrical equipment and rebuilt as an AC propulsion Demo. The AC motors were never installed so the car reportedly has plywood motors to make it look complete. There is little chance that it will ever run again under its own power, but it might be able to serve as a control trailer. Its trucks are totally different from those under SOAC-1 (GS-70s - the standard in Boston) and I don't know what their brake hook-up is like.
Getting them to run - of course - is a daunting task for their sponsor, a Flushing resident who is also interested in our Staten Island Car and the Delaware River Joint Commission Bridge Cars. It may never happen, but then again...
Doug: This is very interesting. I didn't know that they were the last cars built by St Louis. I assume they had pantographs as they ran in Cleveland, I guess in Boston they must have run on the Red Line because of their size. Thanks for the info.
Redbird
Yes, they did run on the Red line in Boston. The Orange line cars are a bit narrower and shorter, and the Blue line cars are tiny!
An interesting sidelight:
Although the Blue Line cars are shorter than those on the Orange Line. they are the same cross-section. The Blue Line cars sit lower on their trucks, though. (Made the price for the order cheaper, and the Orange Line cars somewhat narrower above the floor)
To Gerry: sorry to point it out, but the SOAC cars were built by the Vertol Division of Boeing Aircraft and not St. Louis Car. (They were also responsible for the Boston LRVs seen during the 70s and 80s on the Green Line)
As a matter of fact, when I took my excursion on the SOAC cars the PR crew was handing out a brouchure that detailed all the features and vital stats on the cars.
Doug
> sorry to point it out, but the SOAC cars were built by the
> Vertol Division of Boeing Aircraft and not St. Louis Car
Before any more misinformation is spread, here's a quote from the USDOT/FTA:
"Boeing Vertol was retained as a Systems Manager for the SOAC and related work. Boeing contracted with St. Louis Car Company to build two rapid transit cars based on "BART or better" technology. St. Louis was building R-42 series cars for New York at that time, so an R-42 frame was used for the frame."
For more SOAC info see http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/soac.html
-Dave
Dave,
Did you know that a two car prototype of SOAC was built and never ran on tracks? In fact, it has rubber tires and was brought to Rochester, NY in 1973 and displayed downtown. There was a high density and low density car. The model, prototype was full scale. I have pictures of it. NEAT STUFF. I wonder where it is today?
There is a two unused tracks and dead end tunnel at second avenue on F train. In my mind they should built the tunnel under Houston st to F.D.R. Drive or to Brooklyn. They should built two station on Houston st. What are they (MTA) waiting for? Do they ran out of money to built tunnel under Houston st?
This was supposed to be a part of the IND Second System. It was to go under the river to a large station on the Brooklyn side at South 4th Street, near the Williamsburg bridge. They have covered up the tunnel with corrugated metal after having found homeless people taking up residence in there.
Wayne
The two tracks were the terminal tracks for the F train before the Chrystie St. connection was built and the D used the Culver line. Back then, the Broadway/Lafayette express tracks ran straight through to Second Ave., but now, they can only be accessed via the local tracks.
There was one proposal back in the 70s to loop a line from the 14th St. L, starting at 8th Ave., down Ave. C and then back up to the Houston-2nd Ave. Station, but it never came to much, and I don't remember if that was supposed to be the terminal point, or if the line would loop back over itself at 14th St. and Sixth Ave. and head uptown (doing that certainly would have made it unique among all lines in the city).
The RTA plan also calls for a line coming off 14th St. and going down Ave. C, but it would continue south on Pitt St. and not curve back up Houston St., so as far as I know, those tracks aren't going to used for revenue service anytime in the future.
While rumaging through the dark and dusty archives I can accross a list of the offical Chrystie St car assignments for rush hour service.
Some might find it of interest:
A 370 R-10,10 R1-9
AA/B/TT 216-R-32, 88 R 1-9
CC 220 R 1-9
D 310 R-32, 100 R 1-9
E 370 R 1-9,50 R-38
F 340 R 1-9, 90 R-38
GG 160 R 1-9
HH 10 R 1-9
JJ (Bway-Bklyn) 84 AB
LL 114 AB
M 42 AB
MJ 48 Q
N 120 R-27/30, 16 R-32
NX 40 R-38
QB/QJ/RJ/JJ(weekend) 10 R-11,180 R-16, 114 R-27/30
RR 264 R 27/30
SS Culver 2 AB
SS Franklin 9 AB
Keep in mind this was what was needed for rush hour service, not total cars assigned.Info comes from old ERA Bulletin.
Regards, Redbird
What an interesting piece of trivia! I'm curious about one thing: in every NX photo, the only cars I've seen assigned to it were R-27/30s. Were the R-38s assigned to the NX initially and subsequently reassigned? I never rode on it, so I only have photos to go by.
Steve: I think I have that photo.Its shows an R27/30 at Times Square signed up for the NX Brighton Beach. There is also a blue disc with the letters NX chained to the front of the train. This was done because not all the cars had the proper roll signs. The NX originally used R-38's,then R-32's but by Janaury the R-27/30's had pretty much taken over.The thing to remember about the post-Chrystie St days was that regardless of the official car assignment there was so much confusion over the new routes that almost any car could be found anywhere.
The NX was a real treat to ride as many of use had never ridden the Sea Beach express tracks having been too young to remember the old Franklin-Nassau service.(forget remember,we were not born). We also had the feeling that the NX would not be around for very long which it wasn't.It only lasted until April 1968.
Their were two problems with riding the NX service in the PM rush.
1) upon reaching 59 St-4 Av the conductor would announce that we would
be going to run local to Coney Is
2) upon reaching Coney Is usually on Tk A there would be a long wait to be routed up the Brighton Line.
Best wishes,Redbird
Did the NX really run local to Coney Island during PM rush hours? Or should I say, did all NX trains do so? That would defeat the whole purpose of having that route. Perhaps it was a harbinger of things to come. The R-27/30s in the photos I've seen all had "NX" on their front route curtains, as well as the blue NX disk on the guard chains.
Steve: The NX wasn't suppossed to run local from 59 St to Coney, but what would happen is for one reason or another the N would be late and the NX would be converted to a local.
Redbird
Interesting list, but what about the EE? Wasn't that part of the immediate post-Chrystie St. schedule? I'm surprised it's not listed.
Opps: The EE was assigned 176 R 1/9's. Sorry for the omission.
Redbird
I want to know when the R142 or 143 subway cars deliver? How do they deliver the subway cars to track??
Some one told me that R44/46 can't fix in Jamaica el and Canarsie line. Why???
75-foot cars like the R46 and R68/68A's can't navigate some of the tighter turns on the BMT Eastern Division without bumping into things...including each other! Thus, only 60-foot cars are used there.
[75-foot cars like the R46 and R68/68A's can't navigate some of the tighter turns on the BMT Eastern Division without bumping into things...including each other! Thus, only 60-foot cars are used there.]
I believe that 75-footer actually *can* run on the Eastern Division lines, but doing so is impractical (though not impossible) because the trains would have to take some of the curves at very slow speeds and two trains couldn't pass on another on opposite tracks in those areas.
R-46s blink on and off
R46 doesn't blink on and off.
R-46s definitely do not blink on and off but I'm really starting to wish that you'd blink off (or maybe something other that blink)
I suppose the construction on the Connection Between Howard Beach (A) and the Airtrain Has Begun (The Long Term Parking Lot Is Getting Torn Up) It looks like the Air Train Will Run on an El Made Up Of two concrete posts much like the monorail at Newark. Two Holes Evenly spaced have been dug up in a line through the parking lot.
A tunnel is being dug west of Terminal 9. Piles are being installed in a path 90-100' apart east from here to Terminal 8.
Hi guys,
I'm new to this group and just want to say that this is an awesome forum. Whoever masterminded this message board, kudos to you!
It is no secret that the redbirds on the 2, 4, 5, 6(some) and 7 lines are headed for retirement (a.k.a.- srapyard, ocean-dump, etc)- my question is when. I am so saddened by this. I am not currently in NYC but will fly up there in a flash if someone tells me that these cars are leaving the system in 1999.
Please help me with this rumour; I have heard that the R-33/36 redbird cars on the Flushing #7 line will be sticking around for a few more years. Can anyone please confirm or refute this rumour. If this is true..........yeahhhhhhhhhhhhh! This gives me plenty of time to take more videofootage of one of my favorite subway lines in the city.
If the MTA was smart, they might want to retain a few R-29/33/36 train sets for nostalgic reasons (not just one of each car and dump them under Court Street in Brooklyn at the Transit Museum). Sheesh...
Cheers,
MIKE
The redbirds are an endangered species and will begin to leave the system later this year. About 150 or so I think are satying around a little longer to serve as "excess" for the increase in ridership that NYC Transit has seen. I'm not sure how many of these cars will join the "museum" fleet, if any.
I AM sure, though, that the NY Division ERA will have "Farewell to the R-xx" fantrips when these cars start being retired.
--Mark
Mike: I'm not certain of the exact date but the first of the new cars should start arriving before the end of the year. The ACF R-26 and R-28 will probably be retired first. The R-142's will be arranged in five car sets so its likely that they will be assigned to the mainline first, thereby giving the Flushing cars a little more time. However some of the R-142's will have to be aranged in six car sets for the #7 and when this occurs the Flushing cars will go too. If you have the opportunity take pictures now because these plans could change.
Best Wishes,Redbird
Okay....some of these beautiful subway cars might be retired by the end of the year. I will make a trip to NYC before year's end to take some video shots and some still shots. Thanks for this information!
Cheers,
MIKE
Mike: Its sounds as though you plan to vist New York to have one last look at the Redbirds.Here's the most recent car assignment,courtesy of the NYD Bulletin:
#2 310 R-33
#4 60 R-33 and 10 R-36
#5 90 R-26,80 R-28,100 R-29,30 R-33
#6 100 R-29,20 R-33, 50 R-36 (both ML and WF)
#7 39 R-33WF, 290 R-36 WF
Bear in mind these are the cars required for rush hour service, the total actually assigned to each line is somewhat higher.There is some question about the R-36 train assigned to the #4 line. Neither Wayne nor I have yet to spot it.By the way we might say that the R-26's and R-28's are adopted "Redbirds" They only came by that title after the GOH. The R-29,R-33 ML and R-36 ML were the original" Redbirds." The R-33WF and R-36WF were originally the "Bluebirds" but are now also in the red paint scheme.If I can help with any info don't hesitate to ask.
Regards,Redbird R-33
I know this may seem like a dumb question, but...
What is GOH?
Forgive the shorthand. GOH refers to General Overhaul which was a mid life rebuilding of many of the older subway cars in the late 80's and early 90's.
Regards,Redbird
Thanks a million for this information!!!! I really really miss the "blue birds" from the World's Fair days. I fondly remember riding them on the Flushing Line- too bad they have that drab red slapped all over them today.
Aren't the 7000-series R26 cars? If so, I have seen **plenty** of them on the #5 line. I will definetely ride that subway line because, if my memory serves me correctly, these are the oldest subway cars in revenue service today.
Cheers,
MIKE
7050 - 7299 were R-21s
7300 - 7749 were R-22s
7750 - 7859 are R-26s
7860 - 7959 are R-28s
Mike: R-26 7750-7859, R-28 7860-7959. I believe these are the last ACF Rapid Transit Cars still in service.
Best Wishes,Redbird
Hi everone!
Another rumour circulating.......the MTA has placed subway cars (fully operational) onto the auction block for museums, collectors, enthusiasts to bid on in the past. Is this true? If so, how much did some of these subway cars go for? A source told me at that there were several fully-operational subway cars sold nearly 15 years ago for a whopping $1,500 per car!!! I am not sure if I believe this but I am very encouraged if this is true.
A guy I befriended at NJTransit told me that some of those beautiful 1940s PCC cars (on the Newark Subway Line) will be heading out to auction early next year. Just imagine....private individuals owning vintate PCC cars. Very plausible. This happened all the time back in the 1960s/1970s with old streetcars. Heck, you could find them in people's backyards all across this country.
How many of you guys would bid for a MTA subway car or a NJTransit PCC car?
Cheers,
MIKE
OK - Here are the facts:
#1 Any time something is retired, the MTA will accept bids to sell them off. Usually that means as-is where-is.
As-is usually means stripped of anything the TA wishes to keep
Where-is usually means Bush Terminal, though some cars are dumped off elsewhere.
Usually a big scrap dealer will bid on the whole lot (Does the name NIMCO or Naparano mean anything to you)
Bids from individuals looking for 50 or 60 foot tool sheds are usually not accepted, due to the issue of moving the remains within the allotted time, and the fact that most subdivisions consider junk subway cars unsightly as yard ornaments.
Museums such as Trolley Museum of NY, Seashore and Shore Line will often bid individual cars which are still in service. These organizations have a good reputation for removing their purchases from TA property in a timely manner and the TA will not strip these cars. Unfortunately the TA accepts High Bid so the museums have to bid artificially high to outbid the scrap dealer.
At the last NY Transit Museum Auction & Tag Sale, one R-21 car converted to work service was available for bidding. The requesting opening bid was $3,000. There were no takers. Even if there were, shipping and handling are up to you.
A fully functional "new look" bus sold for $750 and a FOrd van sold for $500.
--Mark
Huh??? $750.00 for a fully functional "new look" bus (I gather GMC versus Flxible). That's great. And I thought I had a great deal buying my two GMC fishbowls/new looks for just over $1,000 apiece. Of course, a GMC from NYC was subjected to much much more stress than a GMC from Kentucky. There is a tradeoff.
Cheers,
MIKE
PS- I think I'm going to pay close attention to the next MTA auction- uh, the 15th of this month, I believe.
6398 was sold to us for a mere $600. The ordeal began when a small group of us decided to "save" a second generation car. After a good deal of debate we settled on an R16. We found many of them in Coney Island. After selecting one that we felt was the most viable, the purchase was attepted. Transit told us that those cars had already been sold. so we contacted the scrap dealer and that's how we got such a low price. Shipping is the real nightmare: almost $6,000.
Then, if you plan on running the olg girl, you have to secure a reasonable supply of parts. Not just the consumables like Brake shoes and motor brushes either. There's relays and valves, door motors and glass. The list is unending. From late 1987 until now, 6398 is just now almost ready to be displayed. She was ALWAYS ready to run!
When I rode the PCCs in Newark last December, I was told that they have already been sold, as-is-where-is, to San Francisco MUNI for operation out there. Apparently they will join the ex-Philadelphia cars that SF has bought and be painted in any paint scheme other than one they originally wore.
I asked a question here a while ago about how third-rail work on the MFL was related to the new M-4 trainsets. I finally found out the answer, and I thought I'd post it in case anyone else was curious.
Apparently, the work they are doing is mostly lengthening the third-rail gaps. That is, shortening the ends of the third rail, so that there is a larger length of track with no third-rail power.
The reason for this is that while the old M-3 cars had independent power systems, M-4s share third-rail power between married pairs.
The reason there are gaps in the third rail to begin with is so that they can shut off a section of track in either direction without killing power to the rest of the line. To make this work, the gaps have to be long enough so that a car cannot bridge the circuit between two sections of third rail.
So since married pairs in the new trains share a common power bus, the danger is that, while moving accross a gap, they would create a circuit and electrify a portion of rail that was supposed to be turned off. Therefore, the need to lengthen the gaps from one car-length to two.
Speaking of the MFSL , when does the new concrete structure work
begin (from 46th st. west)? They are tearing down the steel structure in favor a center truss type support, opening the light to a dreary Market St!
Chuck Greene
It was supposed to have began July '98!
But you know SEPTA.
The politicians have gotten into the act and are trying to turn this into a major job issue for their constituents. There is no telling when it will happen at this point. Best guess would be no work starting before the end of this year, considering that design work is only about halfway done at this point.
I have one question. When I ride the BSL, i noticed at the fromt of the train is a round disc which is hollow and points in the direction of the train. It looks like an arm or something, but it is folded in on the cars that re hooked together in the middle of the train. Can you please tell me what that arm is for....an emergency brkae or something??
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say, if I'm not mistaken, that
it's the antenna for the 2 way radio. Bob?
You are looking at the identa-loop. It is set by the train operator to one of 9 different frequencies. It allows for automatic train routing.
April 15, 1990
The JFK Express service has been discontinued.
September 30, 1990
N service returns to Manhattan Bridge.
B replaces Q service to Queensbridge evenings.
R service to 179 Street rush hours.
J service cut back to Canal Street weekends
3 service between 148 St & 135 St closed at night
How lucky to find this site again. I'll tell my story.
Last fall due to scheduled maintenance the IRT 2 and 3 trains were rerouted on a least one weekend. Returning one night to the upper west side from Atlantic Avenue, per instructions we were instructed to take a Manhattan-bound 3 train and change for the 2 at Bowling Green on the Lexington Avenue line. At Bowling Green we waited for the 2, which arrived on the same track as the 3, but headed in the opposite direction. I figured the 2 would take us back to Brooklyn, switch onto the 7th Ave. IRT tracks and proceed up the west side.
Surprise, surprise! We didn't return to Brooklyn. The wheels screeched as we rode at half speed around a long wide curve; through a rear car window I could see the first car (just like the fabled horse shoe curve on the old Pennsylvania RR near Johnstown, PA). Finally the mystery solved itself as the train whistled, then entered the South Ferry station without stopping.
Wow! That was a first for me. I'd never known there was a tunnel connecting South Ferry and Bowling Green.
Some of the mavens who haunt this site must know more about the the B.G - S.F. connection. Please tell me.
Thanks
The connection you speak of has always been there. In fact, South Ferry opened in 1905 as part of the Contract Two line which extended from Brooklyn Bridge and eventually reached Atlantic Ave. in Brooklyn. There is an abandoned inner loop station platform which was used by a shuttle until it stopped running in 1977; the inner loop track is still used by 5 trains when they're not running to Brooklyn.
It is possible for a West Side train to enter South Ferry on the outer loop track and wind up on the East Side; conversely, an East Side train can enter South Ferry on the inner loop track and wind up on the West Side. There are crossover switches before and after the station platforms: outer loop to inner loop before the station, inner loop to outer loop after the station. At Bowling Green, there is a switch just south of the station; Brooklyn-bound trains bear left while 5 trains using the loop bear right.
Unless there has been some very recent track changes at South Ferry all trains must use the outer loop to switch from one line to another.Only Lexington Av trains can use the inner loop and if they arrive on the inner loop they can only return back to the Lexington Av Line.
Regards,Redbird
You're probably right. I was going by what I have personally observed while riding on 1 trains around the loop, most recently last fall. I do know that there is a switch from the inner to the outer loop track before the station , and immediately after leaving the station on the outer loop track, there is a switch from the outer to the inner loop track.
There is a GO in effect until mid-march that requires 2 trains between 11pm and 5am to loop South Ferry. So far, I've made this formerly unique trip 5 times. And you have your crossovers reversed. There is one crossover between the inner loop lead (Bowling Green Shuttle track) and the outer loop station before the platform, and a second crossover from the outer loop station to the inner loop (Bowling Green northbound track)
Trains will cross from the express to the local at either 34st of Chambers St (depending upon the work between 14st and Chambers), skipp all local stops, loop South Ferry on the oter track, and cross to the Bowling Green lead just past the end of the platform. It then skips Bowling Green, and reverses at Wall St. Leaving Wall St Brooklyn bound, the train will cross to the southbound track before stopping at Bowling Green, and then make all 4 train stops to Atlantic Ave.
-Hank
"The very word 'subway' terrifies people north of Yonkers and east of Jamaica, where they believe its the name of the most sinister place in creation. Instead, a train crashes and crawling
through the rubble are the men and women who cause the sun to rise in New York."
- Jim Dwyer, New York Newsday, 6 June 1995
"Annually, the subway uses 1.8 billion killowatt hours - enough to light up the City of Buffalo for a year."
- From "NYC Transit's Facts & Figures"
"The Mission of NYC Transit is to achieve excellence in providing a safe, orderly, customer-friendly, cost-effective, public transportation system."
- From "New York City Transit's Facts & Figures"
"An asshole is someone who drives from one Manhattan location to another."
- Ellen E.M. Roberts, volunteer with the Committee for Better Transit, quoted in New York magazine, 25 September 1995
"If the New York City subways were subsidized to the same level as PATH trains are subsidized, no one would pay a single penny to ride on the New York City subway system and
everybody would be given a free newspaper and a free cup of coffee."
- Mayor Rudi Giuliani, quoted in the New York Times 26 September 1995
"Tizzadowntonumerixtraintobooklinbidgecityall. Stankearodaclodingoors."
- Heard on a downtown 6 train
"As New York approaches the 21st century, it is time to equip the greatest city in the world with the finest transportation network in the world."
- Gov. George Elmer Pataki quoted in New York Times 4 May 1996
"With the new cuts in token clerks, rush-hour lines at some subway booths have grown distressingly long, echoes of shops in communist Bulgaria after word went out that a shipment of
meat was in."
- Clyde Haberman in The New York Times NYC Column 4 May 1996
"Certainly, New York's transit system - by far the largest and most heavily used in the nation - is not like any other. That perhaps makes the experience of other cities less illuminating
since the sheer scale and passenger volume in New York means that it will write its own history, as it always has."
- Kirk Johnson in the The New York Times 10 December 1997
(Did you compile that yourself or is it a copyright violation from somewhere?)
I got the quotes from a website somewhere, I can't recall which one. I suppose out of fairness I should have listed the compiler of the quotes, but I didn't have the name on hand. I don't believe that it is a copyright violation however. :-)
Just thought it would amuse...
A friend of mine said that the 7000-series redbirds found exclusively on the #5-Dyre Avenue line arrived in New York City in 1959. Is this fact or fiction? If so, these must be the oldest rapid rail cars in the entire United States still running in revenue service. I think Philadelphia just retired their old 1959 Market-Frankfort Elevated cars.
Gosh, I need to get up to NYC fast to catch these cars before their scrapped/dumped into the ocean/whatever...
Cheers,
MIKE
Thats TRUE! The first R-26'S WITCH Are on the No. 5 line where
arived in 1959 and the rest in 1960.
What is your favorite subway car (past or present)?
It's tough for me to nail down one series but I would consider two subway cars: the R38 and the R-17
The R-38, still seen on the A-train on the Far Rockaway branch is a wonderful car. Though, I **hate** what Knudson-Morrison (??) did by replacing the roll signs with ineffective mattrix signs. Same thing was done with the similarly styled R-32 cars (except R-32s didn't have the border around the signs). I also miss the original metal strap hangers.
The R-17 was so unique to me on the IRT line. I really liked the "circle" windows on the doors. I remember them running under Eastern Parkway in Brooklyn way back when. Gee- when were these cars retired anyway?
Cheers,
MIKE
My favorite subway car is the Gibbs Hi-V used on the Contract One IRT before they were modified with center doors, anti-climber and H2A coupler.
Nah, the R-17 is still cooler. They should do another car with those way cool round windows - it really makes the cars look neat.
Favorite currently running stuff is the #7 stuff, or the R-32 (brightliners)
Favorite commuter stuff is the ACMU :)
My favortie Subway Car is R26/28/29 because is classes subway cars and is redbird. I love riding on redbird becasue i feel confortable.
I love riding the New York Subway because the rough ride makes me feel like I'm getting my $1.50 worth. A smooth riding subway car is like sitting in your living room. I love to ride the R62 and R62A cars on the Lexington Avenue Line through the 1908 Joralemon Street tube. COOOOL
My favorite subway car is the R-40 slant. They were on the L, N and Q lines. The interiors were the same as the R-32.
Now THERE is a man after my own heart! I don't carry the monicker that I do for nothing! My favorite cars, from the very first moment I laid eyes on them (August 3, 1968), are the Loewy-Snaith designed and St.Louis Built (Sumitomo gets credit for the nice rebuild) Slant R40.
BTW there are subtle difference between the interiors of R32 and R40.
Look - the grab bars are different across from and behind the cabs.
AND they were kind enough to leave the long front windows when they rebuilt them. I've kind of gotten use to the hardware they carry on their "A" ends (safety first!) though I was shocked when I first saw it. They still lack grab handles between the "B" ends, making it unwise to cross between cars while in motion (not a good idea, anyway)
Wayne |MrSlantR40\
Wayne: We could almost make the slant R-40's an honorary Gate car.
Those front porches they have are so big you could set up a barbecue on them.
Best Wishes, Redbird
My favorites are still the R-33WF/R-36WF with the low door windows, those the original slant R-40s with A-C hold a special place in my heart (especially running F express in Brooklyn during the early 70s)
My favorite subway cars is R26/28/29,42,46,62,68 very slow,110a. I never took the R110b. Some day i will take R110b train for a ride.
I love the R 33s on the No. 2+5 lines because of
the Cobra Brakes and my dad loves the Low V because it was like his first car
I love the R 33s on the No. 2+5 lines because of
the Cobra Brakes and my dad loves the Low V because it was like his first car
Well, then you should love all the cars because since the Tiger Shoes were de-certified, the Cobra Shoe is the only one we use on any revenue car.
WOW. I didn't know that. Thanks for the Info. Steve
I like R-33s, R-26s, and R-62s. I mostly like that equipment because they run on my favorite lines (the 4, 5, and 6).
I like the redbirds, which run on the #4 train my other way to Bedford Park Blvd, cause there is no full width cab so i can look out the front window as we come out of 149th street to go above ground to Yankee Stadium at 161st Street.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
The Redbirds are a sentimental favorite of mine, too. When I was in the city last fall, I wound up taking a number of 2 trains which, of course, are made up entirely of R-33 Redbirds. You should have seen me as one of those trains would pull into the station; you would have thought I was talking to my now-four-month-old nephew: "Hello, Redbirds, hello, Redbirds.."
The Triplex units also had spacious porches, so much so that the storm doors were kept locked to discourage horseplay. At least that's what I've read. Perhaps one of our Subtalkers who remembers the Triplexes can verify if this is true.
Several months ago, Ford Motor Co. of England chartered the D types for a few nights to transport some of its' employees to the Transit Museum for a catered buffet dinner. Two D type units were used (6 cars) and the storm doors were not locked... As for them in revenue service, I don't remember them being locked then either.
Steve: When they were in revenue service the end doors were locked because of the large space at the car ends. As you say they did have big front porches that would have done an R-40 proud.
Best Wishes,Redbird
Mr. Slant40, although I applaud your loyalty, remember those lame porches begat locked "storm" doors until the second level safety bars were added. And frankly theyu should have simply gone back for more 32's which are the best hardware, although my sentimental faves are 1-9's "and the allnight girls and their escapades out on the D train"
I think somebody messed up in planning for the cars. Don't forget, the same fellow who designed the GG1 (Raymond Lowery) came up with the slant concept. It was a good idea, but nobody put 2+2 together till the cars came in. Hence, that large gap between the coupled #1 ends. Another problem was and still is the car wash brushes not being able to "wind into" the slanted ends. The ends never seem to get cleaned properly. They are a fine piece of equipment to operate, but regretably, the bodies are beginning to show signs of old age.
Ironically, once the MTA put in the 75-footers and the transverse cabs with the debut of the R-44s, five years after the R-40s arrived, it would have been possible to build cars with the slanted fronts (at least at the cab ends of an A-B-B-A unit) and not have to add all the safety devices, since all the doors are locked and the motorman and conductor have access to both sides of the train from the single cab.
Or, they could have gone to the more modified slant used by the Expo 67 cars in Montreal (slants were obviously the `in' thing in terms of design in the mid-60s)
slants were obviously the `in' thing in terms of design in the mid-60s) yeah, just look at the junk BART bought with NON-coupling slant noses so thwt have to splice trains to increase length. At least they figured that out on the last two orders. The one really neat thing about the 40's was the giant route sign with light up so you could see from a distance where the train was going.
I vivdly remember the first time I saw a train of slant R-40s. It was an F train at 34th St. At that time, I had gotten used to looking above the storm door for the route sign, and failed to notice the huge magenta F on this particular train. My mother had to point this out to me! My sister got a big kick out of those cars when they were new; we even rode an F once from 34th to 42nd because she wanted to ride on one of those trains.
It wasn't too long after that when E trains of slants began to appear at 42nd St. on Saturdays. Because of my extreme reluctance to take any E train at all, it wasn't until 1978 that I would ride the slants again - this time on an A train.
My favorite car(s) were the R1/9's and also the R10, true venerable workhorses of the IND. Both the Hi and Lo "V"'s are my favs on the Old IRT equipment...hauling down Lex on the Exp between 14th and Bklyn Bridge, really neat! Also getting to watch the switchman throw the switch at the junction where the 145 St spur leaves the Bronx-bound Lenox line. One thing in common back before lettered signs were the changeable dome lights (red, green, clear(lunar), and yellow. If I am correct, these were set according to line and destination so that when a train approached a switching point, the controlling switchman would know the correct routing according to the lights on the train - of course this is prior to installation of the routing buttons, and stackable interlocking routings. There used to be a sign at 179th St for the "E" trains, since they had so varied an itinerary (Chambers/WTC;Euclid;Far Rockaway;Rockaway Pk) which had the combinations for the dome lights listed.
But I do say I did like the Slant R40's - even before I knew what BART was!
Well, there are alot to choose from. But THE subway car -- or actually series of car -- at the top of my list is the sharp looking R-38. It stands out for it's semi-fluted sides, and outline detail around the standard roof-end lights and destination sign treatment. Not to mention the later delivery came of these cars were the first with factory installed A/C. The R-38s had an "ultra-modern" look that would only be out done by the R-40s -- my next favorite car (Hey Wayne!)
I have a sentimental attachment to the R1-R9 series, which were just fading out as I was growing up. To many people, they were just old, ugly and in lousy condition, but I found them exciting, and the sounds they made (especially during acceleration) were neater than anything.
Yes, ten of the R38 came with A/C: 4140 thru 4149.
Buffalo Transit/GE did a SUPER job on the interiors of the R38! I rode on #3980 (going) and #4130 (coming - at the RF window) last Thursday on the Fulton Street "A" express. I like the soft light from the backlit advertising panels (like the R62s), the curly bars and the smooth interior surfaces. They are fast, smooth and remarkably quiet.
The R38 still use the classic font on the exterior number plaques and the digital signs are easier to read than those on the R32. I like that decal they have on the front.
Of course, IMHO, nothing beats a Slant R40, especially if it is an "L" train. Maybe they can get the nice lighting treatment during their next GOH. (Wishful thinking!)
Wayne (MrSlantR40)
I wish the lighting used on the R-110A would be used on the 40-42's because that is reminiscent of their original lighting. (The current lighting is more like R-10--36, and is the same as the GOH of those cars) I hope they do that on the next GOH
The Gibbs Hi-Vs had center doors installed early on, around 1910 or thereabouts, so unless you're old enough to remember the first few years of subway operation, one is forced to rely on photographs. According to Gene Sansone, they spent almost their entire careers in local service, presumably because the narrow vestibule doors would restrict loading and unloading.
Though, I **hate** what Knudson-Morrison (??) did by replacing the roll signs with ineffective mattrix signs.
I should point out that Morrison Knudsen did not overhaul the R-38s. They were done by Buffalo Transit Systems. The snd signs are referred to as flip-dot signs too.
As for a favorite subway car, I have 4. The first would be the BMT 'D' types, the subway car of my youth. Can't tell you how many AMs I started of on one of them, heading for Brooklyn Tech and ended up cutting school to ride all day.
Second is the R-11/R-34 especially after converted to R-34s. Loved the look of the car (exterior) especially the highly visible calipers. The cars uniqueness were their appeal. I still catch a peek whenever I'm at Livingston Plaza.
Third was the R-33/R36 Worlds Fair cars. By far the prettiest car built for the NYCT. T'is a shame that the original paint was destroyed.
4th is the R-46 for obvious reasons. Clearly the most visually pleasing interiors in the entire system and also will prove to be the most enduring car. New in 1975 and overhailed in 1990/91, I expect these cars to see a second overhaul in 2006/7. They will then see at least another 20 years of service.
IRT Lo-Vs and IND R1-9s
I agree with you.
BMT Standards - no contest! I also loved the Q-cars on the Myrtle Ave. El, even though they were so slow. (Oh-oh, I think I just dated myself!)
I don't think anything could ever compare for sheer beauty with the BMT's Clark-built pre-war Compartment cars, the 'Bluebirds.' With their big, picture windows, railfan seats, red asphalt floor tile, tan mohair seats, PCC lights, mirrored panels on either side of the articulation sections, and their blue (two shades) and cream outsides, they were a treat to look at and to ride. It's interesting that Clark never built another transit car--nothing could have matched those.
It's a real shame that at least one of them wasn't saved, but then they would have embarrassed later cars. Of the post-war cars, I was also very fond of R-10s, R-15s, R-16s, and R-17s, and if R-44, R-46, and R-62s had rattan or foam rubber seats, I might have liked them, too..
From growing up with them, I always liked BMT Standards, Triplexes, and the gate el cars on the Culver and Myrtle service as well. What I disliked intensely was the introduction of longitudinal seating on IND/BMT routes and the use of the back-breaking (and bottom-sliding) fiberglass seats.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
I always had a soft spot for the R-42 and R-62. In terms of appearance I think the R-46 is clearly the best looking car.
My favorite is a tossup between the R-1/9s and R-10s. The former with their throbbing compressors, distinctive brake and door sounds, and the unforgettable growling, moaning, groaning, and whining of their traction motors. The latter with their synonimous association with my all-time favorite route, the A line, along with the fastest doors in New York, plus the way they would flat out rocket along CPW on that express jaunt.
Since those cars are no longer on the transit scene, my vote now goes to the R-32s and R-38s.
My vote is for the R1/9's, partly for what Steve B just said, and partly because that's what I grew up with.
I agree with you. I like the R1-9 series. They operate with a "meatball" in each journal box and I like the roar they make on acceleration.
I've always liked the R11 and R15 for their double circle window designs on the doors. I also really like the R110a for its futuristic design, even though the seats are uncomftorable.-Nick
I would nominate the R-40M (and R-42 and R-44) as the worst subway car in the system. Ugly, ugly, ugly.... I hated them on the L-Canarsie Line (heck, I think the R-42s are still there). However, I did like the R-40 slanted ends from 1968 or so. Don't ask.....
The R-10s were neat since they were so old (mid 1940s, I believe) but they were so darn loud on the A-train (Lefferts Blvd). In fact, I thought these were the loudest subway cars in the system. Though, I did like the little ceiling fans in the R-10s...nice nostalgic touch.
Cheers,
MIKE
The worst subway car is one with Graffiti and Scatchitti and break down in the tunnel.
The R42 (or the R40M for that matter) won't win any beauty contests, but they sure are durable. There are several hundred prowling the Eastern Division (J,M,L,Z). Note that the R40M's front window is a little smaller and higher than the R42.
AND there are six trains of Slant R40 running merrily up and down Ye Olde Canarsie Line.
Wayne /MrSlantR40\
> The R42 (or the R40M for that matter) won't win any beauty contests,
I think the R40 modified/R42 front end is probably the nicest of them all! I especially liked them with the blue stripe and large alphabet soup signs. The little signs aren't as nice, and the all steel look lacks something. The original scheme was very clean, no clutter like the R40/slants.
Yes, I agree! The old paint scheme and sign style was MUCH better. They kind of look too plain without the blue stripes and doors. Ahh, what a little bit of paint can do..
Hey the "KK" is that #4918 or #4912 ("Take A Letter, Maria...", 11/04/1969)?
Wayne
The KK in the picture is #4921.
If 60 foot cars run on the Eastern Division, then an 8 car train would be 480' as opposed to an 8 car train of R-44/46/68(536 feet) that cannot run there. They do run 67' cars on the Eastern Division lines, right or just the 60 footers?
And basically, my question is how many cars compose an Eastern Division train? Do they alternate train lengths?
The only limitation on 60 foot cars is platform length, and I think most are the normal 600 feet. The problem with the 75' cars is clearance on curves. Those east of Alabama Av. on the J and some in the tunnel on the L are the culprits. I am not sure if the curve into Delancy-Essex is also a problem. 67 foot cars worked with no problems, but the 75 footers are just a tad too big.
Eastern Division platforms will accommodate 8-car trains of 60-footers, which works out to a minimum of 480 feet. 6-car trains of 67-foot BMT standards was the norm on the Canarsie line, as I recall, which comes out to 402 feet. An 8-car train of standards added up to 536 feet, which was the approximate original length of Southern Division platforms.
My vote for the worst subway car today would be a tossup between the R-44 and the R-68. They remind me of wallowing beached whales as they huff and puff along. The R-16s could outrun the R-68s, IMHO. That's saying something.
If you had asked me the same question in 1967, I would have said BMT standards, hands down. The first time I laid eyes on them, at Broadway Junction on the Canarsie line on July 20 of that year, I thought, sheesh, where did they come from? No signs up front, three sets of doors instead of four, who are they trying to kid? The only redeeming factor was that their motors sounded exactly the same as those on the R-1/9s, which I had fallen in love with.
Let's just say I have a more positive feeling about the BMT standards now.
my vote for the worst subway car(presently in service)is the R-68as.why,you ask? what a poor braking train!!! they are VERY hard to operate,with brakes that are slow to apply,and then you have applied to much brake,and then they are slow to release.what a pain in the brake handle! the R-68s,by comparison,are a much smoother braking train.however,the cadillac of the nyc subway system has been,and will continue to be the R-46s.with a roomy cab,good brakes and some speed too.if you think im wrong,then why have the R-46s continue to operate in just about the same assignments 20 years after they were built? as for the R-44s they probably have operated better then they ever have.one question though,why couldnt the TA spring for a few extra dollars when they rebuilt them and push that tiny cab back a few feet just like the R-46s? im a tall guy,and fitting behind that console is a tad uncomfortable,to say the least.but as for the R-68as the B-line can keep them! besides,R-40s express on the Brighton line...you cant beat that in 1999!
The R-16 and its spiritual heir, the R-68, have been the ones I least wanted to see coming out of the darkness. Slow, slow, slow, though the R-16 did have the advantage of rocking so hard from side to side at times you wondered if it would chip off a piece of tunnel wall.
The worst subway cars i ever take? It R10 back in 1986 i took a "C" train to school and i hate those R10 because it very loud and i have to cover my ear for next four stop. i got off and my ear start to ringing because of R10. That was the only time i took the R10 also when i was little i took a R1/9 train on "F" line in the 70s. Well both of them are the worst train i ever took.
The R10's are great subway cars. They are the first cars with dynamic braking after the R1-9 series and the first cars with new technologies called the SMEE's. The R1-9's were AMUE's and were harder to brake with the manual lap position the ME23 brake valve. So the R10's were great for the motorman. I know they make noise but at least you will be getting your money worth from paying for that token. I like the IRT version of the R10 made my St. Louis Car Company in 1948 called the R12.
Do you know about the Million Dollar train? It's called the R11's which were the first attempt at corrugated stainless steel. One is in the Transit Museum in Brooklyn. Also, did you know that R7 car 1575 was in a wreck and was the prototype for the R10. It is not a SMEE. It resides in the New York Transit Museum.
When the 10 R-11's (8010-8019) were delivered from the Budd Company in 1949 they acquired a couple of nickname;"Super Duper Train" and "The Million Dollar Train."
1575 is a Pullman-Standard R-7A which was wrecked in 1946. It was rebuilt by ACF into the R-10 prototype. Although it lokks like an R-10 it can only mu and operate with the R-1/9's.
Redbird
When I was very young in Boston we still had cars on the Red Line which went back as far as 1911. They were loud! The 1963 replacements (01400s) were wonderful for about two weeks. Then they started falling apart and roared even louder than the cars they replaced. Those cars made anything in NYC look great!
You'd better not let W.A.Padron (Mr.R10) say that! [Just kidding! :o)]
Part of the charm of the R10 was the sound they made - HEAVY METAL!
The deafening roar of an R10 in full flight up Central Park West was
one of the most memorable sounds I can recall. Before the GOH in the 1980s some of the R10s were in sad shape. I can recall a few of them on the "GG" back in 1982 and 1983 - as slow as an oxcart, schmeered with graffitti, half the lights out. It was a sad commentary on the times. It is truly too bad (shame on somebody!) that the R10s were put out to pasture - at least SOME of them should have been saved -
enough of them to field a consist for the Nostalgia Train. Thank goodness the 1927 D-Types are still around for this purpose.
Wayne
The noise level wasn't all that bad inside the R-10s during their heyday on the A, even when rocketing along CPW; I never had to cover my ears on that express joyride. On the other hand, if you stood on the uptown platform at 81st St. when one of those trains thundered by, you got quite an earfull. Uptown expresses were running at full speed by the time they reached 81st; the R-1/9s on the D would be howling away at about F# above middle C - music to my ears.
Could someone cue up "Thanks for the Memories"? It can be with or without Bob Hope.
My 'worst' subway car would be the R-46, but for the technical reasons - not looks!
How about the worst looking one?
Exterior-wise, I vote for the R-40 Slants (sorry Wayne & Todd). One thing is for sure, few people are neutral about them. You either love em or hate em.
Interior-wise, R-62/62a/68/68a. It's like riding inside a tuna can. Absolutely no personality + they hide vandalism poorly.
The sheer ugliness of the Slant R40 with all that stuff on the front is the very thing that makes it beautiful! God Bless #4437 and the rest of her family (photo in the Canarsie Line page of this one
leaving Sutter)
Wayne MrSlantR40
My vote for ugliest car goes to the rebuilt R32s. Sorry,
but that end has to go. The rest of the car is OK. The
10 cars that GE rebuilt are OK too. Second place to the R42
..that coarse side fluting just reminds me of cheap 1970s
alumnimum siding. 40M's much better.
Ugliest interior: everything delivered with
the stainless steel interior. Enough said. Ugliest motorman's
cab: a tie between the R44 and R46. Sorry, that Cineston style
control handle just ruins the whole "Metropolitan" look.
The ugliest interior EVER was when the MTA repainted the R-1/9s in that light green with gray doors scheme back in the early 70s. A complete violation of the look the cars had for the first 30 years, and just a hair worse than they way the mainline IRT fleet looked when it was given the same treatment (added bouns ugly points for any train that had its interior car number stenciled in on the motorman's/conductor's cab wall)
I still think this color scheme gave all the graffiti artists in the early 70s their justification for spraypaintingt everything in sight. I would love to find out who at the MTA either thought those colors looked better than the original paint schemes the cars came with, or got a big kickback from some paint manufacturer for taking all that gray and green off his hands.
That sacrilege only happened to SOME of the R-7s and R-9s camped out at the Eastern Division. It was sure ugly, mint green interior with grey doors, grey seats, and white on the upper half of the car.
Now you've got me thinking - aside from the original battleship-grey interior color, what would have been a better color for an R-7 or R-9 type car? Any ideas?
Wayne
I think the blue scheme on the mainline R-33/36 would have looked good on the R-1/9s, if you matched it with the red padded seats instead of the yellow wicker.
I was thinking the MTA did that paint job to all the cars because I always saw that god-awful paint on the Sixth Ave. KK during rush hours. I forgot the KK was operating trains out of the East New York Yards.
One thing to amend: I forgot about the R-16s with the green/gray colors. Worse looking than the IRT due to the slanted panels for the door motors (allowing for more green paint that way), but not as bad as the R-7/9s, which struck me as part of the MTA's effort to erase much of the subway's history and put their own imprint on it (I include the MTA's replacing the traditional station tile with that blue/white cinder block-sized tile scheme on the BMT Broadway/Fourth Ave. lines as part of that plan)
Well, they DID un-do what was done to Cortlandt Street BMT station - there they have done a complete overhaul, including restoration and replacement of the original tile - cream yellow, dark green, maroon etc. with the "C" icon. They did a nice job of it. Ditto for Canal Street with the Chinese ideograph plaques and tablet (Chinese characters actually read "China" "Town"). They owe a few others the
benefit of this restoration.
Wayne
I like to split the MTA's management era into 1968-83 and 1983-99 in terms of management's concerns for the tradition of the system. They started painting the Redbirds red again at the time they did the overhauls, and decided to go back to the traditional New York City station design. Before then, it was blue-and-white on almost everything, with the occasional effort to do something different (49th and Brodway on the N/R, though those platforms are slippery when wet)
I always like to see the stations restored to look like they did when
they were first opened. Some of the IRT restorations are simply beautiful - Astor Place, 33rd Street, Franklin Street, 66th Street (almost finished), the Lenox Avenue line stations. Some of them, however went a little too far - 3rd Avenue/149th Street in particular. I do however think the mosaics (Una Raza, Un Mundo...) are very nice.
They buried the original terra-cotta work under a layer of plain red and white tile.
Wayne
Ah, but the R-1/9 as originally delivered had all-wicker seats.
How would a dark brown/cream/white paint scheme have looked?
And yes, the R16s were UGHLY in the lime green scourge - and the white paint that was daubed on their ceilings continues to peel to this very day.*
* 6387's ceiling is STILL peeling, but her interior is blue.
Wayne
Dark brown and white would have looked good, or even the light blue R-33/36WF light blue paint with the yellow wicker seats.
Why on earth did they ever paint the ceiling in the first place? Outside of the sooty R-38/R-40 fan vents, I never remember the ceilings being that dirty on the R-15 through R-32 cars with the imbedded fans.
Oh now you're stirring up some memories- Slant R40s with NO A/C roaring along Queens Boulevard on the F line, half their lights out and big black gobs of track dust and soot trailing from the fan vents, blackening the ceiling. Back in the summer of 1973 I was aboard one of these beasts (they are beasts no more) and one passenger appeared to be asleep holding onto a strap. We arrived at 71st-Continental Avenue
and as the crowd thinned to debark, this gentleman dropped to the car floor - unconscious. The crew was notified and sounded the 3-3 and they got him onto the platform and tried to revive him but he was gone; EMS didn't arrive for ten minutes or so. Apparently the other passengers were holding him up as they rode.
Wayne
Well, we may be going back in time. As of now, when the 63rd St. connector opens, the Q will likely be all Slant 40s (14 additional trains)running to Continental Avenue. Of course, they may be running local but either way, they'll be back in the Queens corridor...
So that REALLY has happened! I always thought that was one of those 'urban legends'.......
Yes, unfortunately, that DID happen. Those Non-A/C Slant R40s could be extremely uncomfortable in the summertime. I used to refer to them as "hotboxes", borrowing the railroading term for an overheated wheel journal, and applying it to what were then some of the most uncomfortable cars in the system during the summer months.
The A/C (#4350-4449) Slants, by comparison, were much, much better. I would always seek them out if there was one in the train (I was not alone). I had one favorite pair, #4412 and #4413, which wore a multicolored coat of Killer-I/Flint 707/Spin graffitti, intricately painted. I am pleased to say that these two (minus their coats of many colors) are still running merrily up and down their lastest route - the Olde Canarsie Line.
Wayne [MrSlantR40\
Say, Wayne, have you seen R-42s 4572-4573 lately? They were the ones used in The French Connection. I saw them a few years back on 6th Ave. How about R-32s 3350-3351? Last October they were seen on the E.
#4572-4573 were censused on Oct 31 1997 on the "J" s/bound at Chambers. They were re-spotted on the "J" again Sept 19 1998.
#3350-3351 (the original Brightliners) were spotted sleeping at Union Turnpike signed up as "E"s on Jan 9, 1999. It was censused on May 28 1998 at 34th St.Penn Station, also on the "E".
Wayne
Remember when the R-32 interiors were painted beige with the orange doors? Those were ugly!!
They were ugly on the stainless steel cars, but over on the IRT, the orange doors with the tan interiors were a vast improvement over the green-and-gray early 70s paint combo. Supposedly the orange-and-tan paint was more graffiti proof than the other paint, though it took the MTA a few more years to really get an effective war against the spray-painters going.
I seem to recall the light green shade being applied to the interiors of R-1s, R-4s, and R-6s, along with darker green on the door interiors. In fact, my IND signbox still has light green paint on what would have been the interior side. For a time, I thought about sanding that paint off and refinishing it, but I'll probably leave it be. My father likes to rest his feet on the top edge of the hinged lid when he shines his shoes...
The R-7s and R-9s had that light blue tint along with darker blue on the doors; Shore Line's 1689 still had that scheme in 1980.
For the record, does R-1 #100 have its original interior paint scheme?
You're right - those dopey, illegible pixel signs have got to go!! They should bring back the good old route and destination roller curtains which thankfully the Redbirds still have.
I still miss the blue doors on the R-32s....
Currently...mmmmmm....the 40s are kinda 'unique' with all that garbage on front...now if you wanna talk historically nothing beats the old BMT 'C' units for pure ugly..old rebuilt mismatched el cars....Yum! they look bad even with the haze of nostalgia...
The Guy from Upstate (for me, probably very 'downstate') is really right about the old BMT 'C' types being the ugliest cars ever run in New York. With their sheet-metal 'diaphragms' between cars (make-believe articulation), the exterior electric doors, and the sag in the middle of most of the cars--even without looking at a picture I can remember their ugliness.
And to think they ran alongside the Bluebirds, Zephyr, and the Green Hornet on Fulton Street. I rode them on Fulton Street and on the old rush-hour West End Shuttle. Ugly, ugly, ugly.
The doors on the Multi-Sections that separated the operator from the rest of the car were ugly, too, as I remember them. If the little window in the door didn't have glass, it would have looked like the food-passage opening to a maximum security prison cell in an old movie. And the left-over WWII khaki paint didn't help.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Ed,
I agree with you about the C cars. I understand that the motorman's cab was not moved since the days that they were gate cars. How did they appear to you? I believe the MUDC operated on the IRT elevated lines in Manhattan were also a cheap conversion of gate cars to MUDC operation like the C's. The Q's were a class act.
So far as I can remember, D. Rosenthal is right about the Cs, the MUDCs, and the Qs--I like seeing color pictures of the Qs in their orange-and-blue (or blue-and-orange) livery. Sansone's book on NY transit cars says that the cabs on the Cs were moved forward, but I'm not that certain all were rebuilt that way. Sansone also considers them as innovative and paving the way for the streamlined cars of the 1930s, but again, I'm not that certain that I would agree.
>I understand that the motorman's cab was not moved since the days
>that they were gate cars. How did they appear to you? I believe the
>MUDC operated on the IRT elevated lines in Manhattan were also a
>cheap conversion of gate cars to MUDC operation like the C's. The Q's >were a class act.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Oh yeah..I almost forgot..from what Ive heard from oldtimers..(im too young myself!) the Cs were the worst SOUNDING cars ever also...overworked undermaintained 'el' motors....But ya gotta admit they lasted over 30 years like that so there mustve been something to 'em! (not to mention the fact they also LOOKED like the lash up was going to fall apart at any minute!..rock and sway..)
Brian Cudahy describes the Cs in Under the Sidewalks of New York as being "noisy and downright ugly", yet they were "structurally and mechanically sound". I'm also too young to remember them; I was born in the same year they were retired.
((((( Ouch ))))), that hurt. Care to share what those technical reasons are? In advance, I totally disagree...
Sorry Steve, but the teething pains of the R-46 with the Rockwell trucks and various other non-performing systems, made them a trouble car right from the beginning. I remember being in NYC once when there were all sorts of service problems because of the number of those cars out of service for various problems. It took a lot of effort on the part of NYCTA to get those cars right, and make them as reliable as they are today. Again my assessment is "as delivered" not as they now are!
BTW, with the blue stripe, big sign curtains and colorful interior, they were one of the best looking cars on the system.
Wayne,
I tried sending this message from within the article on the Canarsie Line, but I keep abending, so here goes.
Great article on the Canarsie Line, but just a couple of additions/corrections:
1. Wasn't the grade crossing closed between 1964 and 1967? I'm sure I recall visiting the city in 1967 after three years absence and finding it closed to traffic.
2. On the map, don't forget the 1, 2, 3 and 9 transfer at 6th Av.
3. The bridge from the Livonia Av. station to Junius St. connects only to the street, not to the station. It is also, I believe, an exit only, unless that has been changed since the introduction of MetroCards. I recall that around 1960, there was indeed a direct connection between the stations requiring extra fare, but this was torn down. Due to there being no passage between Van Sinderen Av. and Junius St. between Blake and New Lots Avs, it is not possible to transfer between the 3 and L lines even with an unlimited metrocard!
Keep up the good work!
Bob Sklar
Beware of Mrs. Bush train Dispatchor on the no 1 line AT Van Courtland Park
from 2pm to 10 pm. My son loves to ride subway trains. He is 17 years
old. So as he was boarding my train Mrs. Bush told my son he couldn't
ride my train even thow he was a reveinue Passandger and my train was in passandger service. Ofcouse i told my son he was rideing or i call
police. She then backed off.
I hope you aren't teaching your child grammar or spelling.
There's one in every crowd.
I admit I should have checked the grammer when I hit the send button
Sorry.
I admit I should have checked the grammer when I hit the send button
Sorry.
What is a Hercle Pot?
The R33/R36WF subway car has old lights. It was built in 1963-64 and rebuild in 1982-85. The lights get to flash off and on. It is now on the No. 7 Train. The R33WF car numbers are 9306-9345 The R36WF car numbers are 9346-9523, 9558-9769.
WRONG, the oldest car in NYC is the G Trailer of 1878.
Technically G is not a subway car. It is an elelvated car.
I think that of the oldest cars (that people can see) is the IRT Lo-V trailer at the Transit Museum or the Lo-V Museum Train usually stored in the Coney Island Yard.
If we speak only of "subway" cars I think the oldest is 2204,the AB It was built in 1916 and beats out the Lo-VT 4902 by one year. Both of these cars are in the museum at Court St. The oldest existing "subway" car must be 3352, a Gibbs Hi-VM at the Seashore Trolley Museum.
Regards,Redbird
The R33/36 cars have always been on the #7. What do you think the WF stands for? World's Fair!!
The lights on some of the Redbirds on the #2 and #5 and #6 (and a few #4) still blink on and off.
Assuming were speaking of the oldest NYCT cars in revenue service that would be the R-26, built by ACF in 1956 (or is it 1957??)
Funny you should mention NYC's oldest subway car(mine is actually elevated-pre-IRT I suppose)
Yesterday in 30th Street Station, at the tourist stand(just a stand with tourist info up and down the NE) there was a large number of 1999 NYCVB Guides(a quick note: I picked one up at around 8 yesterday morning and there had to have been 50 after that-when I went thorugh the station around 2 PM, there was one left) andinside was a picture of Money Train G, NYC's oldest surviving railcar(the book said 120 but they also seem to forget that Dean St. is long gone-as they said there were 469 subway stations).
If you're referring to the oldest subway cars still in revenue service, that honor goes to the R-26 Redbirds, which were built in 1958.
We (MTS Imports, Inc) are importing HO Scale models of the BMT R32 & R38 Subway cars, and we have a question in regard to the roof detail on the R38 Cars.
The R32's have a fine "fluting" on the roof along with the strips of ventilators.
Does the R38's also have this "fluting" or does it have lines of rivets or other markings to seperate the panels of metal that were used in the construction of the roof.
All the photos that we have do not show the roof clearly, and we require this info in order to produce the most accurate models possible.
Please contact us at mtsimp@warwick.net if you have any info that may be of help to us.
The HO Scale R38 is $600.00 for two subway cars. Well that too much money to buy two subway cars?? They should lower the price to for $200.00 not $600.00. I won't buy it for $600.00 for two R38 subway cars
Joel, so far as I can tell from the pics in my collection -- the 38s have no fluting detail on the roofs, but do have small-bolt riveted roof plates much like the next TA delivery, the R-40.
Good luck, Doug
Isn't it great we have a Subtalk & a Bustalk!. Let's face it, we are just "transit fans". I love everything that moves the masses, subways,trolleys, trackless trolleys and busses!
Chuck Greene
Back in April of 1998, General Railway Signal was bought by Alstom of France and the GRS name no longer exists. It is called Alstom Signaling Inc. (formerly General Railway Signal). GRS lasted for 94 years and Union Switch and Signal still exists with it's original logo of 1881 with the letter U and the SS in the middle. Ansaldo Transporti of Italy owns US & S. In the industry we call GRS, "Brand X" and US & S is called "Union Swipe and Swindell" or simply "The Switch.
This is a little of interesting true trivia!!!
The R-68 (2500-2924) is on the D, N and the Franklin Shuttle lines and the R-68A (5001-5200) is on the B line. They have the aluminum interior and the orange and yellow plastic seats same as the R-46.
The R-32 (3650-3949) and R-32A (3350-3649) is on the C, E, G, N, R and the 63 Street Shuttle lines. The interiors are in beige and dark grey plastic seats. From 1964-1972 the interiors are in white and light blue plastic seats. From 1973-1988 the interiors are in beige and light green plastic seats.
They're also on the "A", but not regulary on the "G" any more. A few used to run on the "Q" but no longer; they've been switched to the "N". I do remember the interior doors being orange for some time in the late 70s and early 80s, then they got repainted again (before the rebuild) dark blue with a cream beige interior like they have now.
The Ramones' "Subterranean Jungle" album cover shows a graffitti-smeared R32 on the "B" line (circa 1980 or 1981) with the orange interior doors.
Wayne
Does R-32s run on the F line?
Not usually unless there is a shortage of R-46s
In the early 90s they ran r32 &r46s on both the E & F line.Of course this was when the r46s were getting a makeover.In recent years most or all f trains are 75footers.Hey,did you know that there were r32s rolling stock on the L in the 80s?
That's what I've heard. It's not surprising. Over the years, the R-32s have seen service on virtually every IND and BMT route you can think of, and even some which no longer exist!
The R-32s have aged gracefully over the years; in fact, they still look quite good. Let's hope they'll still be around for many more years. Maybe they'll even break the record for longevity currently held by a few Gibbs Hi-Vs (for subway cars, that is, NOT el cars).
Now, if they could only bring back route and destination signs on the ends and the blue doors.
[The R-32s have aged gracefully over the years; in fact, they still look quite good. Let's hope they'll still be around for many more years. Maybe they'll even break the record for longevity currently held by a few Gibbs Hi-Vs (for subway cars, that is, NOT el cars).]
I thought the BMT Standards held the record ...
The first Standards were built in 1914 and the last retired in 1969, however the oldest unit operating until 1969 was 2390-1-2 which was built in 1917 thereby giving 52 years of service.The Gibbs Hi-v's were built in 1904-05 and at least three keep running until 1958, 3562,3584 and 3631, so they were 53 to 54 years old.By the way the last trip of the Standards was on August 4,1969 on a M nassau St Exp.
The cars were 2531-2-3 and 2466-2649-2467.
Regards,Larry,RedbirdR33
Hey, I was riding around the system that very day - we started at 5:30am and ended at 8:45pm. My Dad and my friend Larry McR went with me. We saw and rode a Ice Cold R40M on the "LL" that day (#4300-4301-4292-4293-4298-4299-4308-4309). We must have just missed that train - we were on another "M" (R-7/R-9 variety, we boarded at Essex St and rode to Wyckoff). I have notes on that trip somewhere,
Monday August 4, 1969. The temperature that day was a mighty nice 96.
We were all over the place - Bronx, Brooklyn, Queens, Manhattan.
We went to CI by "F" and came back by R42 "B" - #4644 and #4645. The "B" was pleasantly A/C'd but few other cars (save the "L") were. It was hot as heck down there and we loved every minute of it.
Wayne
The last few months of 1969 were a particularly somber time for subway fans. The Standards made their last run in August,the Q's in October and the IRT cars in early November. I had been hunting jackalopes in South Dakota and so missed the passing of the AB's and Q's but did manage to return in time for the funeral of the old IRT cars.
Regards,Larry,Redbird
And for us Mets fans, October 16, 1969 will live forever in our memories and our hearts. I still remember that day as though it were yesterday. I think fans in Baltimore were having hernias: first the Jets upset the Colts, then the Mets upset the Orioles. Not to be outdone, the Knicks won the NBA Championship the following spring. Only it wasn't at the expense of Baltimore.
Yeah, but they did beat them in 7 in the first round.
As I said, it was enough to give Baltimore fans hernias.
The $64,000 question: did you ride on any slants? How about R-10s? So, is it true that it was R-40Ms on the Canarsie and not R-42s in 1969? I could have sworn those were R-42s I was on back then, but numbers don't lie...
I was in the city two weeks later, on August 17, with my cousin. We took in the usual tourist sites: the Statue of Liberty and the Empire State Building. We even took a jaunt up CPW on - you guessed it - an A train of R-10s. Then, on the way home, our bus was involved in a collision.
Seems there was a music festival going on that very same weekend of August 15-16-17 in Bethel at Max Yasgur's farm - I believe it was Woodstock.
Here's some info regarding the LL car assignments in 1969.The first R-40M's (4250-4349 orig nos) made their first run on 3/6/69 on the F. The first R-42's on 5/9/69 on the N. On Jun 9 R-40M's 4286-4297 were assigned to the LL,4286-87 were returned to the F on Jun 11 and replaced by 4298-4301.On Jul 25 R-42's were assigned to the LL and were sometimes mixed with the R-40M's.By Nov R-42's 4888-4919 were assigned to the KK/LL/M pool and all R-40M's were on the E and F.
Bear in mind I used the original numbers as they were in use at the time. This was also the era of mix and match on the TA and almost any combination of cars could be found on trains.R42's with R-16's,R-32's with R-38's,R-10's with slant R-40's, etc.
Regards,Larry,Redbird
Yeah, I remember the mix and match era all too well. Interestingly enough, the only mixed consists I ever saw were on the D, and they were always R-32s coupled with R-42s. It used to drive me nuts! The R-32s were almost always on the ends of the train, with R-42s in the middle. I never cared for mixed trains and still don't; call me a solid train/express fanatic.
I may be mistaken, but I get the impression that if the R-10s were intermixed with other cars in the same train, it was done infrequently. Each and every R-10 I ever saw, whether on the A or any other line, always ran in a solid train. There is a photo in the R-42 section of a mixed consist of R-10s and R-42s on the A, and the R-16s were intermixed with R-10s back in the 50s. For the longest time, I thought the R-10s could not m. u. with any other cars when, in fact, they could.
Unfortunately, I missed the mixed consist era on the IND/BMT. I lived near to the 3 & 5 lines and I didn't ride/or see my first IND/BMT train until I was 8 yrs old in 1974. I'm glad they don't do that any more. I hated to see it on the IRT and I was happy when that practice ended. I should've been born 15 years earlier
Wayne
Wayne: Having been a long time IRT fan I was happy when they started solid trains on the IRT. For many years R-17 through R-36 were mixed but these cars can blend together more or less. When we stated bringing over the R-12,14,and 15 from the Flushing things started to get a little hairy as they did not blend well with the other cars. When the BMT/IND started mixing just about anything and everything after Chrystie St it could be downright frightening. R-10's do not blend with R-40's,R-32's do not go with R-27's and R-40's don't blend with anything. The TA finally seemed to realize that trains run better when they are kept with units of their own class.
Best Wishes,Redbird
Consider yourself lucky. I don't think I ever saw a solid train of anything on the IRT mainlines back in the 70s. As I've said before, the only mixed consists I ever saw on the IND and BMT in the late 60s and early 70s were R-32s coupled with R-42s on the D. In the mid-80s, I did see R42s coupled with R-40Ms on the D, but they're pretty similar and blend together, in much the same way R-32s and R-38s blend together.
The R40Ms and the R42s are still hanging together on ALL of the Eastern Division lines - "J", "M", "Z" and, yes the "L".
Wayne
Re R-40M & R-42 on the D. This I remember well. It was extremely rare to find a train of solid R-42's on the D. I think I saw a solid train of R-40M's on the D once. Of course at the time when late night D trains were 6-cars you find trains of one car class.
NJT is running mixed trains of Comet II. Comet III and Comet IV push=pull trains. It looks ugly-especially trains with the IIs mixed in! The Comet III and Comet IV mixes, while ugly are not as bad.
(Comet IV cars have the automatic doors between cars and the Blue seats.)
YES, we kicked it off with a nice non-AC Slant R40 on the "F" - #4156 according to my notebook. We rode in the LAST car and watched out the back. YES we rode several R-10s, all on the "A". We had R22 on the #5, with the front window dropped down. The #1's were a mixed bag: R21, R22, R14, R15, R17 etc. The #2s were Redbird. The #3s were mixed. We went to Lenox Terminal. Then we switched to the #4 at Fulton. We visited the South Ferry Shuttle. It was an R12. The "F" going out from Jay was an R6/R7 mix, Hot Fun in the Summertime. We went to Church Avenue and got off there to look around one of Dad's old neighborhoods (Dahill Rd & Ave C). Then we got another R40 from Church to CI. The "B" was an R42 coming back. The "RR"s were R27/30s, weeping and moaning as they waddled out of Cortlandt Street. "KK"s and "M"s were all R7/R9. So was the "LL" from Myrtle back into town. The train coming home was an R6/R7 on the "F".
My Jan 28 visit to Lenox Terminal was the first one since that day in 1969.
Wayne
Thanks! I love these stories. Let me jog your memory on this: on the South Ferry shuttle, the R-12s which were used (5703 thru 5706) were modified so that only the center doors would open at South Ferry. Can you recall if all the doors opened at Bowling Green, or did the leaves on the extreme ends of each car stay closed?
How does an R-27 waddle, BTW?
At Bowling Green I believe that the center doors would open and one leaf each of the outer doors.
Larry,Redbird
I think the cars reversed themselves at South Ferry, so that the same side of the car always stopped at the platform there (with just the center door open) while the other side opened at Bowling Green, with all doors operative.
The shuttle reversed direction at South Ferry; however, both the inner loop platform and the shuttle platform at Bowling Green were on the same side relative to the shuttle track, so the doors at both stations opened on the same side. By reversing direction, rather than going around the loop, the shuttle didn't interfere with mainline train traffic.
I'm curious as to the specific modification made to R-12s 5703-5706 which made it possible to open only their center doors.
First you start off at a breathtaking speed of 5 MPH. Throw in two 90-degree curves for good measure. When the train goes into the first curve, it shudders a little, then it tilts. The waddle comes when it wheels back all the way after the first curve. Throw in the swingback curve coming into City Hall for good measure. I've been through this curve on the following cartypes:
R27 (RR), R30 (RR), R6 (EE), R16 (EE), R42 (RR), R46 (R), R32 (R), Slant R40 (N), R68 (N), and most recent cartype not previously ridden on through there (yes!) the D-TYPE TRIPLEX!
My last actual ride through there on a revenue train was August 1, 1998 aboard an "R" train of R32's.
"Breathtaking speed of 5 mph" Sounds like the old Q Types with a strong tailwind>
Redbird
I believe the posted speed for that nasty "S" curve is 5MPH northbound and 8 or 10MPH southbound. Southbound, just as you enter Cortlandt Street, there's a little whiplash right curve-back. They have a similar thing on the southbound #2/3 just as you enter Fulton Street (another extremely tight curve).
Wayne
Wayne: I believe I heard somewhere that the curves on the lower Boradway Line are the tightest in the system.
Larry,Redbird
The only other ones I can think of that are as tight (or tighter) are:
The #2/3 line betw. Park Pl & Chambers Street, AND north of Fulton Street and the Second curve entering City Hall Loop (not the right turn, the left turn right after it) - the R62A I was on the cars looked almost like they were at 45% (dont have degree symbol handy) angle (more like 25%)- he actually stopped the train then proceeded.
Is there a book or chart somewhere indicating turning circle radii?
Wayne
Don't forget the curve on the #5 at 149th-Grand Concourse. Because they're anywhere from 9 to 24 feet shorter than their B division cousins, the IRT cars can deal with even sharper turns than the IND/BMT
Having lived near there I recall the sharpnest of that double reverse S curve very well. How about the Franklin Av Loop on the Newark City Subway?
Oh, yesss, the Mott Avenue Jughandle! How quickly I forget. Northbound it is very very tight; southbound, it is broader. The angle is a whopping 125 degrees northbound, about 115 southbound.
Wayne
You're right - that's one helluva curve.
Getting back to the BMT, the Triplexes had an advantage in negotiating sharp curves because they were articulating units. Did that train you were on have its "via Tunnel" signs lit up in white?
I wonder how much chiseling they had to do in that tunnel between City Hall and Cortlandt St. before a train of 75-foot cars could navigate its way through it.
Quite a bit, from what I remember. The test train actually almost got stuck in there. I think the cut back on the inside of the first curve northbound and on the second one southbound. The R46s and R68s that meander through there treat it with the utmost respect. Red/white striped signs are up too, indicating "NO CLEARANCE".
Alas, the Triplex did not have its signs lighted, nor did they run the fans. They tried, but one stubborn old fan in the lead car refused to budge (the second from the front-it must have been a GE), so in the interest of preserving the electrical circuits, not to mention the other fans, they shut them down, much to the dismay and groans of the railfans aboard. Maybe next time. They could have used them for sure, October 18 was a rather warm day.
Wayne
October 19 was warm, too. I flew into LaGuardia that day. As Don Adams would say, "Missed it by that much".
I know we've talked about this before, but how would you compare the sound level of the Triplex bull and pinion gears at speed to, say, the R-1/9s? Those IND old timers would resonate as they moved along. Not that I had any complaints - I loved it! I thought the BMT standards were a bit quieter than the R-1/9s in that regard, and I've heard the Triplexes were even quieter. How do the Lo-Vs compare?
I will have to take in a ride on the Triplex units myself someday, if I'm ever lucky enough to be in the city when a fantrip is scheduled.
The 7 Avenue IRT is kind of a dip and a turn leaving Chambers stbd to Park Place, but the lower Broadway Line has twists and turns. One part of the train seems to be going in one dirction while the other part seems to be going in another. I do have a set of blueprint schematics for the original IND which do show curve radiuses. I could only guess you would have to see the TA's schematics for the different lines. Maybe someone will publish a book on the lines like Gene Sansone did on the cars.
Those three Gibbs Hi-Vs are still the longevity champions, taken all by themselves, and the Gibbs cars, as a fleet, would have to rank up there, too, at 50-plus years. It wasn't until the R-17s started to arrive in 1955 that Hi-V retirements began, so one can safely say that nearly all of the Gibbs cars (3350-3649 series) put in 50 years of service. The BMT standards were on the scene, as a fleet, for 54 years; however, as you pointed out, 2390-1-2 hold the individual record at 52 years. I gather that not many standards served for 50 years on an individual basis; chances are that the oldest units were retired first when the R-27s arrived.
You could have three different longevity categories: individual cars, total years of service as a fleet, and average years of service as a fleet for any given car. Take the BMT standards. The oldest units were built in 1914 and entered revenue subway service in 1915 (some were used on the Sea Beach line to supplement trolley service to Coney Island prior to 1915); the last units were delivered in 1924. If retirements began in 1960-61 and continued until 1969, that works out to a rolling average of 45 years for any given car in that fleet, give or take a year or two.
The real surprise would have to be the Triplex units. As good as they were, the only units which could have served for even 40 years would have been the pilots. They began arriving in earnest in 1927-28 and were phased out in 1964-65 with the arrival of the R-32s for an average of 37 years. The R-1/9s had the same rollimg average.
IMHO, the R-32s have a legitimate shot at the record, as long as they stay healthy.
[You could have three different longevity categories: individual cars, total years of service as a fleet, and average years of service as a fleet for any given car ... The real surprise would have to be the Triplex units. As good as they were, the only units which could have served for even 40 years would have been the pilots. They began arriving in earnest in 1927-28 and were phased out in 1964-65 with the arrival of the R-32s for an average of 37 years. The R-1/9s had the same rollimg average.]
It seems like the R-30s also were a bit of a surprise. If I'm not mistaken, they entered service in 1955 and were pretty much gone by 1990.
The R-30s came along in 1961-62; it was the R-16s which were delivered in 1955. Both classes had relatively short life spans, compared with other New York subway cars. It seems that the postwar cars, specifically the single unit cars, as a whole didn't stay around as long as their prewar counterparts, roughly 30 years.
One could say that they don't build them the way they used to, and to an extent, that would be true. On the other hand, had it not been for WWII, chances are the prewar IRT and BMT fleets would have been retired sooner.
Thirty years service (actually, 31-32 for the R27/30) is not an acceptable lifespan for a subway car, IMHO. They should be able to do a minimum of 40 years with the proper maintenance, unless, like the R16, they were inherently flawed to begin with.
The R27/30 couldn't be A/C'd like the IRT Redbirds were because to do so would have made them too heavy, so I was told. So even the R30A's that went through their GOHs bit the dust. Ditto for the fan favorite R10s. Now THAT was a shame!
Wayne
At least there's a bright spot: the R27/30's may not have lasted long, but the R32's already have been around over 35 years and with any luck will celebrate their Golden Anniversary.
Here, here. I'll second that. If there is any consolation, those 110 R-10s which were fixed up and painted green did put in 40 years of faithful service. Too bad they didn't run any of them on the A at the end.
As for our beloved Redbirds, the R-26s have already passed the 40-year milestone, and the R-28s are sure to follow suit.
And, Wayne, let's hope the slant R-40s stay around for their golden anniversary, too. I know you'll agree to that!
Yes, If the good Lord lets me make it to 2018, I hope to see a few Slants still running.
Maybe the TA could set aside one train of each car type (R26/28, R29, R32, R33, R36, R38, R40, R40M, R42 etc) as museum pieces, for future railfans to enjoy.
BTW- where and do I pick up an application for Conductor?
(I have my reasons)
Wayne
If you want to be a subway conductor?? Well buy a chief and look up if any test coming up for MTA job or look at www.mta.nyc.ny.us and there a list coming up. I took the conductor test six years ago and i didn't know i pass or fail. The conductor test should be this year or next year. I will find out and let you know.
Thanks in advance, R62A. I work in information services right now and it is a harrowing existence. I love the subway and I wonder if a change of scenery isn't overdue (I've been in my business for 20 years now). I have all the routes, stops, transfer points AND the sides that the doors open on down cold.
Wayne
Any time Wayne and i love subway cars and buses too. I been a subway fun since i was 4 years old. I would love to have a layout for subway cars in the future.
Wayne,
Sometimes I think the same thing. If I start a career at NYCT, I definitely will be a step ahead as I have the ssytem stored in my head. The same for MABSTOA buses, TA buses in Manhattan
and Queen. Brooklyn - I'd have to study some maps and Staten Island - I'd be completely green.
Wayne
Not to mention your Master Lists. I'll bet, in fact, I know your longtime dream would be to work the doors and announce stations on a train of slant R-40s on the L. Or am I way off base? Would you settle for a Q train of slants?
At this point, I'd settle for anything just to get a foot in the door.
As for picks? Sure, I'd take the "Q". Love that express run. And the "L" (my favorite)...
Myrtle Avenue, doors open on the left side, change here for the "M" train on the upper level..."
I can dream, can't I?
Wayne
I know the feeling. I rode around with a bus driver when I was young and he always let me change the sign. I always felt like I was part of it, as he said "Charlie, it's time for us to leave." He let me tell people how to get around town , as I knew most of the routes. We would stop in South Philly and get a water ice or soft ice cream cone on the way southbound( this was on the #2 bus route -ran on 16th & 17th sts.)
My other great thrill was operating a LRV on Septa's test track on open house day. I felt like I had died and went to heaven!!!
I am a Mechanical Autocad designer and am starting a solid modeling program which is a lot of fun and pays good money. If I could pilot
a LRV for the same bucks, I would!
Chuck Greene
I still fantasize about working the trigger boxes on a train of R-1/9s or R-10s. The novelty would undoubtedly wear off quickly, but I agree: it's nice to dream.
if you took an exam 6 years ago, write it off. The exam number expires after four. Study harder and try again
So test does expires after four, but i took the cleaner in 1993 and i find out my name is still on the list because my father's friend work for department of personal. His friend told him that my name can't drop until they call me but i don't think i might not get that job because i hear the city want to put workfare into cleaner and they will not be part of MTA. Well any way i took the station agent two months ago and hope i will pass that test.
P.S my dream was to be a motorman because i love riding the subway cars also I will find out when the conductor test.
To Harry - I take it that there is material that needs to be studied prior to taking the Conductors' Test; if you would be kind enough to point me in the direction of it,
Thank you in advance,
Wayne L Whitehorne
There is an ARCO civil service preparation book that you can purchase. I believe there is a civil service book store on Thomas St where the Dept. of Personnel used to be located.Also, Barnes and Nobles sells those books.There is another bookstore on 86st,between 18ave and 20 ave stations on the B line, on the Coney Island bound side of the street.
You forgot Car #3348.
The R44 and R46 cars were equipped for GRS and US & S carborne ATC systems for ATO operation. The equipment was never used except for the speedometer and the car were "de-sophisticated" of the equipment in the 1980's.
Quiz for today, on what track and line where the cars tested for full ATP and ATO operation? I will give answer tomorrow.
The answer to yesterday's quiz is the track F4 on the Sea Beach Line in Brooklyn. Same track was used for testing the Automatic Shuttle train in 1959.
It there any nyc subway cars for N or HO scale?? Im looking for R12,21,26,28,29,40m,40,42,44,46,62,68 for my layout. Im making 4x8 and the track im using is N Kato unitrack. N kato unitrack is the best and i been using N kato unitrack since 1990.
Yeah, try www.imagereplicas.com They have some nice styrene unassembled kits and some brass ones too. Very nice! I have the r21 myself. Check it out!
I am looking for GOOD pictures of the in-service underground stations. But pics that would make you feel like your actually there. I don't want any closeups of the mosaics(although they're cool) or pics of a train with the corner showing the platform and a I beam. Please let me know if you know where to find some! Thanks.
The R-30 (8250-8351, 8412-8569) and the R-30A (8352-8411) are on the C, H, and M lines until 1993. The exteriors are painted in rebuilt red scheme. Interiors are in beige with dark grey plastic seats and red doors. These cars look like the IRT cars.
The R-62 (1301-1625) is on the No. 4 line. The R-62A (1651-2475) is on the No. 1, 3, 5 and 6 lines. The interior is aluminum with orange and yellow plastic seats same as R-46.
The R-17 (6500-6899) is the IRT version of the R-16. The R-17 is the mainstay of the No. 6 line. The photos are in this book are 6698, 6538, 6544, 6587, 6874, 6889, 6500, 6854, 6877 and 6688. Museum R-17s: 6609, NY Transit Museum and 6688, Shore Line Trolley Museum. The interior of 6609 are in grey with orange leathered seats. The interior of 6688 are in beige with dark grey plastic seats with red doors.
R17s do blink off and on
I guess your an expert on blinking lights?
I guess your an expert on blinking lights?
Which light are you referring to? I never saw any lights blink on an R-17 or any other car, for that matter.
Here are some service changes
EE has been eliminated.
K service has been elimnated.
N service extended to 71 Avenue.
5 service cut back to Bowling Green
SS Bowling Green Shuttle eliminated
E service cut back to World Trade Center
CC service extended to Rockaway Park
Does anybody have a NYC subway map from 1978
I have one from '79.
Can someone tell me what is meant when a subway car is in the shop for running repair? Would this be the same as unscheduled maintenance? Also I know that the "F" line calls Jamaica yard home but do they also lay up "F" trains any at Coney?
Running repairs are not just unscheduled repairs. It usually implies that the car has been repaired without the formality of being 'officially held' and then 'officially released'. Running repairs can be made in the maintenance shop or in the yard but in practical sense, less paperwork is involved.
Wayne: Here's a news item you might find interesting. I came accBross it last night while rumaging in the archives.
The first train of R-40's ran in revenue service on March 23,1968 from 179 St to Coney Island. The consist was 4351-0,4359-8,4352-3 and 4354-5.
Best wishes,Redbird
Figures they'd send out the air conditioned ones first.
What aboutthe one photographed sitting in the 34th St middle before Chrystie St, with a green F sign (colors weren't assigned yet)? Was this just a display, and did not operate in passenger service?
There was a display of the R-40's prior to the entering of service. This was to show off the new design and before any of the hardware was added to the ends of the train. As a result of this display the first set of handrails was added to the car ends. The train did not run in revenue service at that time.
Redbird
Those were NOT the A/C Slant R40. The A/C slants didn't arrive until very late 1968, some perhaps even early 1969. Remember, they shuffled the numbers around a year or so after they arrived. So the original numbers #4350-4359 would wind up being #4250-4259.
See the R40 page in the Illustrated Subway Car Roster.
Here's how the number-shuffling played out.
Original numbers, car type, current numbers.
------------------------------------------------------
4150-4249, Slant R40, non/ac, stayed 4150-4249
4250-4317, R40M, became 4450-4517
CBxx,ASxx, R40M, became 4518-4549
4350-4449, Slant R40, non/ac, became 4250-4349
4450-4549, Slant R40, A/C, became 4350-4449
* CBxx and ASxx were brake test temporary numbers
Wayne |MrSlantR40\
You're right, I forgot about the number changes. I was just recalling how much the TA touted it's new air conditioned cars back then and assumed they would have rolled the R-40s with a/c out first.
As Felix Unger says: When you assume...
Early today I saw about R15 or 17 eight work cars and also i saw R12 work car sitting at E180st yard. They been sitting there for week now. Are those work cars ready to scapped? By the way where is the scapped yard?? So i can take some picture of retired subway cars. David
No David. The cars that you saw at 180 St are cars being used for the Continuous Welded Rail Train (8 R17/21/22 cars)- It's only purpose is to carry rail through different parts of the subway system. They aren't going to scrap since they were being used on the Dyre Av line over the weekends for track work. As for the scrap yard, there's one behind a fence at 39th Street and 1st Avenue in Brooklyn, near the piers. You can try to get pictures there.
-Constantine
I want to know why the R62a running on #5 train line? Those R62 came from #6 line because i saw a yellow tag under number plate. That mean those R62a #6 line going to #5 line??? And # 6 line is getting new R142??
For my third message of the night (I'm an insomniac, I guess), the R62As that you see here on the 5 are being used for OPTO, or one person train operation. This means that at night, the R62As are assigned to the 5 shuttle, which operates as a 5 car set with only the train operator on board. 20 cars from the Pelham line are assigned here. As for the R142s, well they'll go wherever the R26/28/29/33/36s are located.
-Constantine (for the third time!)
The reason why is because they are used for one person train operation
on the Dyre Ave during midnights. During the day R 62s are used to
replace the Redbirds that go to pelham witch are mainly R 33S BECAUSE
I have not seen any R 26,28 INVOLED IN THE SWITCH.
Now that new lights are everywhere, and MTA " People pushers" have been assigned to Dekalb Ave, When is it going to get redone? The tiles are literally crumbling off the walls, and the signs to the main enstance still have yellow (D),(Q) signs as well as orange (R) signs. You can even see light blue (TT) signs behind one of the letters that is peeling off.
"Any potential improvement areas along the D, Q line is to be summarily ignored"
-MTA 5 YR. PLAN (1995)
A blue TT sign at DeKalb? That's interesting. Although the TT lingered until July 1, 1968, it ran only as a shuttle between 36th St. and Coney Island during nights and Sundays after the Chrystie St. connection opened. It ran when the B wasn't operating, and then it never went as far as DeKalb. I could be wrong, of course...
You Are Defintley Right!!!
I meant Green RR. I don't know what I was think. Sorry I didn't reply sooner, but I didn't wan't to be one of the type they been talkin about recently, being that I've only been on for a month or two.
Steve: Back in the period immediately following the openning of the Chrystie Street Connection every subway line had it's own color.The short lived TT West End Local did indeed use dark blue. That sign must have been up there for at least 30 years.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Yes, I remember that very well. Mass confusion reigned during that first week, and it wasn't limited to just passengers. Even tower personnel and operators didn't know for sure where any train would wind up. There was a newspaper story which I wish I had kept that told of a motorman who pushed a wrong button and wound up crossing the Manhattan Bridge instead of the Montague St. tunnel.
My mother picked up a pamphlet back then which outlined the first series of new routes; unfortunately I lost it some time ago. I still have a pamphlet with the next series of route changes effective July 1 and August 18, 1968.
Where was that TT sign located at DeKalb? I've never seen such a sign there.
I remember the story in the N.Y. Times and it was the other way around -- A `D' train motorman pushed thw wrong button and went through the tunnel instead of the bridge, and then through the Nassau St. loop and out across the Williamsburgh.
That made him the first motorman to use the eventual Delancy St. bypass route the `D' would use in the early 80s when the northeast side of the Manhattan Bridge was closed.
Steve: You caught something that I missed. The #3 or TT Nassau St-West End Local did serve Dekalb Av up until Chrystie St. After Chrystie St the TT continued to run until July,1968, but only as the West End Shuttle between 36 St and Coney Is and did not serve Dekalb Av.During this period the TT was identified by a dark blue color.
Contact me at RedbirdR33@hotmail,let me know if you can't get through.I might have some additional information.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Maybe the light blue sign that he saw was the bottom of an M. If only partially revealed, the M could look like a TT. Back in the 60s/70s the M was a light blue.
The M ran only during rush hours when the Chrystie St. connection opened, and then it ran only to Chambers St. It didn't begin operating through DeKalb until the 70s.
Fred, the original post, saw the sign recently. I am only saying that maybe he saw the bottom of the M from when it ran through Dekalb in the 70's or whenever.
Of course, please dont think I'm being a wise a**. Actually, I thought I was going to be chewed up alive for that mistake, I didn't even know the TT ran through Dekalb.
Sorry
Fred
Fred: I actually enjoyed reading your post. What people may not be aware of or have forgotten is that in the immediate post-Chrystie St period there was a great deal of confusion in the TA over what routes were going to go where.Some planned routes were never implemented or altered, others existed only for a short time.I know from personal experience of signs being posted in the wrong stations or others never being updated so an out-of-service route might still be shown at a station long after it had ceased to run.There was a sign at Bway-Myrtle for many years showing a blue "M" and a green "SS" going to Metropolitan Av and this was long after the "M" was identified with the brown color.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
As if my first few posts wern't confusing enough, today I went to the entrance of Dekalb ( Across Flatbush From Junior's ) and Did a little peeling of the Brown M sign. There IS a blue sign ( very light blue ). I couldn't make out a letter though.
:-) Fred
Fred: Light blue was the color used by the M from 1967 to 1979.It was also used by the NX but the NX did not stop at Dekalb.
Best Wishes,Larry,Redbird
Why the NX last ran only in 1967 to 1968??
I believe it was because the patronage was so low. The few times that I took it at the peak of evening rush hour, it was nearly empty with a lot of avaiable seats (imagine that on a rush hour train). Besides that, it was very slow getting through Coney Island to its Brighton Beach terminal and then a lot of people still had to change to the northbound D or QJ to get where they had to go.
You're exactly right. Apparently, no one at the time thought of simply cutting back the B as a shuttle during nights and Sundays. Just as people were getting used to the TT... Then again, that also explains all of the SS shuttle routes of the late 60s (Dyre Ave., Lenox Terminal, Myrtle Ave.).
If no onre read my last post about Dekalb, I apologize again. I said Blue TT (which I was thinking of while writing my post). I meant to say Green RR, which is peeling off under the R sign. If anyone goes to the main entrance on Dekalb + Flatbush Ext., and does a little peeling, you may find more.
Sorry Again
Fred
Was there a Myrtle Avenue Shuttle? I remember the maps showing Myrtle service using the the M and MJ. M to Chambers Street, MJ to Bridge-Jay Street (Myrtle Avenue El)
Remember all of those SS lines? There were quite a few.
The ones I remember are:
Times Square-Grand Central Shuttle
Bowling Green-South Ferry Shuttle
135th Street-145th Street(later 148th Street)Lenox Shuttle
East 180th Street-Dyre Avenue Shuttle
Prospect Park-Franklin Avenue Shuttle
9th Avenue-Ditmas Avenue Culver Shuttle
When the Myrtle Av El stopped running on Oct 4,1969 the SS Myrtle Av Shuttle began service between Metropolitan Av and Myrtle/Bway(Lower Level). The approx. hours of operation were M-F 12 mid-6a and 8p-12mid and all day Sat and Sun. The M nassau St Local would run M-F 6a-8p.The color used for this route was dark green.You are quite right about the number of shuttle services.The 1969 revison of the subway map shows seven routes designated "SS" and with the dark green color;42 St, Bowling Green,Lenox Terminal,Dyre Av, Culver,Franklin and Myrtle Av. BTW the "SS"designation for the Myrtle Av Shuttle lasted until the 1972 edition of the subway map when it was incorporated into the M service.
Best Wishes,Larry,Redbird
Even though the station signs said "SS" for the Myrtle shuttle, I never saw a train signed up as "SS" on it. They were always signed up as "M" and all (except for one, which was an R42 of the high-4800 series) were R7 or R9.
BACK TO THE SUBJECT OF DEKALB AVENUE and its current state of disrepair - first, the curtain walls and side walls need a GOH of the white tile, like that which was done at Pacific and 36th Street.
Problem is, so many lines feed through that station, it presents a logistical dilemma. They'd have to do it piecemeal or shut down some line(s) and do it at night. The tile pattern is that oddball offset one, so they couldn't just throw up fistfuls of white tiles; to do it right they'd have to set them by hand or pre-fab them. The frieze and tablets are pretty much intact, but they need to be reglazed and some spots need fill-ins. They did this at 36th Street. Does anyone have any idea what the compound they use to do this smells like? I DO! It really puts a hurt on your nose! The guys who I watched doing it a few years back down at 36th had gas-mask type facegear on as they worked up on a flatcar-mounted scaffold. I could only stand it for a few minutes; I bailed out on the very next ("R", diverted to the express track) train.
Wayne
I noticed a couple weeks ago that they installed all over the station those strip flood lights (with six light bulbs [ I even !borrowed! one as a souvenier- they say NYCTA on them ]), as well as bright blue lights on the walls about 200 feet before and after the station. Does anyone know of the signifigance of these? Also, the vacumn train was on the express track the other night. It seems there is work going on there EVERY night on everything but the cosmetics of the station.
P.S.-The work is needed soon. I noticed if you stand on the platform and throw a quarter across the tracks agaist the wall, tiles fall down. (they are the small 1inch X 1inch tiles)
Wayne: That's true. The SS Myrtle Av Shuttle was a map designation only and was used from Oct 1969 to 1972 when it was merged into the M on the TA maps.This was another legacy of Chrystie Street in that the route designations on the maps were hopelessly out of sinc with the route designations actually displayed on the train. It took ten years to build the Chrystie St Connection. You would think somewhere in that time they could of had the appropriate sign curtains prepared.
Best Wishes,Redbird
I didn't know TT ran on Dekalb ave line? Where does the TT go?? I never heard TT line on Ex BMT now (B Division).
In the days(and years) before the Chrystie St Connection(Nov 67) opened,the BMT ran the #3 West End-Nassau Street Local between Chambers St and points on the West End Line. When the R-Types started coming into service they bore the designation"TT West End Local." The service prior to Chrystie St had the #3 or TT running M-F 6a-6p btwn Chambers and 9Av/Bay Pkwy(Coney Is-Midday).M-Sa 12mid-6a and 8p-12mid
and all day Sunday the TT ran as a shuttle btwn 36 St(4 Av) and Coney Is.After Chrystie Street opened the B became the main West End service but only ran M-Sa 6a-8p btwn West 4 St and Coney Is,extended M-F rush to 168 St(Wash Hts). The TT continued to run nights and Sundays as a shuttle btwn 36 St and Coney Is until July 69 when the B was made a full time service.
Best Wishes,Redbird
But they weren't sure what the services were going to be until right up to the end. The bedrock of the plan was the new D-Brighton combination, but the other routes were fuzzy. At first, the T was going to continue on Broadway until the 2nd phase (exp tracks) or 3rd phase (57th St) opened (these two phases were combined and opened the same time). Then it was decided that the weekend 6th Av-West End service to W4th or 57th would still be called the T, and the rush hour Wash. Hts service the "BT". The original "EE" designations were "QB", and then "QM", an the QJ may have been the QT. The M was supposed to be replaced by the MM to 57th, and that made it to the signs, but never ran. (We could use this line now, or at least when the bridge reopens. But this was the beginning ot Ridgewood's becoming the forsaken stepchild of the transit system.
in 2 years, the MJ would be taken away.
All of this changing in the plans was covered in the 12-65 through 1967 ERA Bulletins.
That may explain in part why the R-32s didn't originally have B signs on their roller curtains. Apparently, it must have been decided to designate the 6th Ave.-West End service as the B at the last minute. Subsequently, the BB signs on the R-32s were pasted over with Bs.
I agree with Larry: you would have thought the TA had everything worked out well in advance, considering it took ten years to build the Chrystie St. connector.
I can vaguely recall seeing Myrtle Ave. shuttle trains of R-7/9s marked SS in 1969-70-71. We used to take the QJ from Cleveland St. to Fulton St. on Saturdays about every three weeks or so.
Steve: That's very interesting. I know that the R-32's had signs for "SS Shuttle" but I did'nt know that it had been added to the sign curtains of the R1/9's.
Regards,Larry,Redbird
I happen to have a side route roller curtain from one of the R-7/9s which wound up on the Eastern Division. It has an SS/Shuttle sign in addition to the other route signs (KK, LL, M, QJ). What makes the SS sign interesting is that it was printed on a very stiff mylar-like material, then glued to the canvas on both sides.
Did the R7/R9 curtain also have the lost "MM" designation? I seem to remember seeing it during my play period Dec. 27, 1969 aboard the snow-spattered "M" shuttle (I was rolling the cranks around, setting the signs to this and that). My Mom, who came along for the snowy ride, thought it was all great fun and the handful of passengers on the train didn't seem to mind. The conductor, however, was scratching his head come Metropolitan Avenue.
Wayne
I'll have to check my roller curtain. It just might have an MM sign.
I hope you were near the front or back of that M train when you were re-signing it! The only time I ever played around with a rollsign was on a BMT standard while waiting for our train to depart from 8th Ave. I don't remember which route it was set for, but it wasn't "14th St. L'c'l". I started cranking away while my mother was praying the conductor wouldn't spot me, and when the generic "Local" sign came up, I stopped. Later, I learned the "14th St. L'c'l" sign wasn't too far away from that point. On the BMT standard curtains, the routes were grouped by division, Southern Division at one end, Eastern Division at the other, with a few interesting signs thrown in: Nassau St., 14th St. Line, Via Bridge, Via Tunnel. Since every car had two sets of signs on each side, they were pretty informative.
I have one of the large-sized route (upper) curtains from a standard, courtesy of Mr. Rollsign himself, Charles Fiori. About the only marking it doesn't have is "Via Tunnel then Via Bridge" sign which the Banker's Specials would have used.
Was there a Myrtle Avenue Shuttle? I remember the maps showing Myrtle service using the the M and MJ. M to Chambers Street, MJ to Bridge-Jay Street (Myrtle Avenue El)
Remember all of those SS lines? There were quite a few.
The ones I remember are:
Times Square-Grand Central Shuttle
Bowling Green-South Ferry Shuttle
135th Street-145th Street(later 148th Street)Lenox Shuttle
East 180th Street-Dyre Avenue Shuttle
Prospect Park-Franklin Avenue Shuttle
9th Avenue-Ditmas Avenue Culver Shuttle
When the Myrtle Av El stopped running on Oct 4,1969 the SS Myrtle Av Shuttle began service between Metropolitan Av and Myrtle/Bway(Lower Level). The approx. hours of operation were M-F 12 mid-6a and 8p-12mid and all day Sat and Sun. The M nassau St Local would run M-F 6a-8p.The color used for this route was dark green.You are quite right about the number of shuttle services.The 1969 revison of the subway map shows seven routes designated "SS" and with the dark green color;42 St, Bowling Green,Lenox Terminal,Dyre Av, Culver,Franklin and Myrtle Av. BTW the "SS"designation for the Myrtle Av Shuttle lasted until the 1972 edition of the subway map when it was incorporated into the M service.
Best Wishes,Larry,Redbird
Even though the station signs said "SS" for the Myrtle shuttle, I never saw a train signed up as "SS" on it. They were always signed up as "M" and all (except for one, which was an R42 of the high-4800 series) were R7 or R9.
BACK TO THE SUBJECT OF DEKALB AVENUE and its current state of disrepair - first, the curtain walls and side walls need a GOH of the white tile, like that which was done at Pacific and 36th Street.
Problem is, so many lines feed through that station, it presents a logistical dilemma. They'd have to do it piecemeal or shut down some line(s) and do it at night. The tile pattern is that oddball offset one, so they couldn't just throw up fistfuls of white tiles; to do it right they'd have to set them by hand or pre-fab them. The frieze and tablets are pretty much intact, but they need to be reglazed and some spots need fill-ins. They did this at 36th Street. Does anyone have any idea what the compound they use to do this smells like? I DO! It really puts a hurt on your nose! The guys who I watched doing it a few years back down at 36th had gas-mask type facegear on as they worked up on a flatcar-mounted scaffold. I could only stand it for a few minutes; I bailed out on the very next ("R", diverted to the express track) train.
Wayne
I noticed a couple weeks ago that they installed all over the station those strip flood lights (with six light bulbs [ I even !borrowed! one as a souvenier- they say NYCTA on them ]), as well as bright blue lights on the walls about 200 feet before and after the station. Does anyone know of the signifigance of these? Also, the vacumn train was on the express track the other night. It seems there is work going on there EVERY night on everything but the cosmetics of the station.
P.S.-The work is needed soon. I noticed if you stand on the platform and throw a quarter across the tracks agaist the wall, tiles fall down. (they are the small 1inch X 1inch tiles)
Wayne: That's true. The SS Myrtle Av Shuttle was a map designation only and was used from Oct 1969 to 1972 when it was merged into the M on the TA maps.This was another legacy of Chrystie Street in that the route designations on the maps were hopelessly out of sinc with the route designations actually displayed on the train. It took ten years to build the Chrystie St Connection. You would think somewhere in that time they could of had the appropriate sign curtains prepared.
Best Wishes,Redbird
I didn't know TT ran on Dekalb ave line? Where does the TT go?? I never heard TT line on Ex BMT now (B Division).
In the days(and years) before the Chrystie St Connection(Nov 67) opened,the BMT ran the #3 West End-Nassau Street Local between Chambers St and points on the West End Line. When the R-Types started coming into service they bore the designation"TT West End Local." The service prior to Chrystie St had the #3 or TT running M-F 6a-6p btwn Chambers and 9Av/Bay Pkwy(Coney Is-Midday).M-Sa 12mid-6a and 8p-12mid
and all day Sunday the TT ran as a shuttle btwn 36 St(4 Av) and Coney Is.After Chrystie Street opened the B became the main West End service but only ran M-Sa 6a-8p btwn West 4 St and Coney Is,extended M-F rush to 168 St(Wash Hts). The TT continued to run nights and Sundays as a shuttle btwn 36 St and Coney Is until July 69 when the B was made a full time service.
Best Wishes,Redbird
But they weren't sure what the services were going to be until right up to the end. The bedrock of the plan was the new D-Brighton combination, but the other routes were fuzzy. At first, the T was going to continue on Broadway until the 2nd phase (exp tracks) or 3rd phase (57th St) opened (these two phases were combined and opened the same time). Then it was decided that the weekend 6th Av-West End service to W4th or 57th would still be called the T, and the rush hour Wash. Hts service the "BT". The original "EE" designations were "QB", and then "QM", an the QJ may have been the QT. The M was supposed to be replaced by the MM to 57th, and that made it to the signs, but never ran. (We could use this line now, or at least when the bridge reopens. But this was the beginning ot Ridgewood's becoming the forsaken stepchild of the transit system.
in 2 years, the MJ would be taken away.
All of this changing in the plans was covered in the 12-65 through 1967 ERA Bulletins.
That may explain in part why the R-32s didn't originally have B signs on their roller curtains. Apparently, it must have been decided to designate the 6th Ave.-West End service as the B at the last minute. Subsequently, the BB signs on the R-32s were pasted over with Bs.
I agree with Larry: you would have thought the TA had everything worked out well in advance, considering it took ten years to build the Chrystie St. connector.
I can vaguely recall seeing Myrtle Ave. shuttle trains of R-7/9s marked SS in 1969-70-71. We used to take the QJ from Cleveland St. to Fulton St. on Saturdays about every three weeks or so.
Steve: That's very interesting. I know that the R-32's had signs for "SS Shuttle" but I did'nt know that it had been added to the sign curtains of the R1/9's.
Regards,Larry,Redbird
I happen to have a side route roller curtain from one of the R-7/9s which wound up on the Eastern Division. It has an SS/Shuttle sign in addition to the other route signs (KK, LL, M, QJ). What makes the SS sign interesting is that it was printed on a very stiff mylar-like material, then glued to the canvas on both sides.
Did the R7/R9 curtain also have the lost "MM" designation? I seem to remember seeing it during my play period Dec. 27, 1969 aboard the snow-spattered "M" shuttle (I was rolling the cranks around, setting the signs to this and that). My Mom, who came along for the snowy ride, thought it was all great fun and the handful of passengers on the train didn't seem to mind. The conductor, however, was scratching his head come Metropolitan Avenue.
Wayne
I'll have to check my roller curtain. It just might have an MM sign.
I hope you were near the front or back of that M train when you were re-signing it! The only time I ever played around with a rollsign was on a BMT standard while waiting for our train to depart from 8th Ave. I don't remember which route it was set for, but it wasn't "14th St. L'c'l". I started cranking away while my mother was praying the conductor wouldn't spot me, and when the generic "Local" sign came up, I stopped. Later, I learned the "14th St. L'c'l" sign wasn't too far away from that point. On the BMT standard curtains, the routes were grouped by division, Southern Division at one end, Eastern Division at the other, with a few interesting signs thrown in: Nassau St., 14th St. Line, Via Bridge, Via Tunnel. Since every car had two sets of signs on each side, they were pretty informative.
I have one of the large-sized route (upper) curtains from a standard, courtesy of Mr. Rollsign himself, Charles Fiori. About the only marking it doesn't have is "Via Tunnel then Via Bridge" sign which the Banker's Specials would have used.
When the token is finally withdrawn, I know that the attendants will be turned into information people, however, at low use stations (like the fulton st. locals) will they be ther 24hrs? If not will the stations get the Metro Card Revolving Turnstiles? Will all stations eventually have the large, ugly Revolving turnstiles?
I have never seen or heard of a Revolving Turnstile before. I assume it has some sort of head-to-toe barrier that can't be jumped? Are there any pictures of these on the web?
You can see the MetroCard version of the "Iron Maiden" (aka Revolving Turnstile) at:
http://www.cubic.com/annualrpt/cts/page2.html
"You can see the MetroCard version of the "Iron Maiden" (aka Revolving Turnstile) at:
http://www.cubic.com/annualrpt/cts/page2.html"
Interesting. Thank you for the link!
How well do they work? It looks like the sort of thing you could get caught in very easily. I'm sure they designed it so that shouldn't happen, but has the MTA seen a problem with people who refuse to use them because they are afraid of getting stuck?
If you get stuck going *in* you can always go back out! These turnstiles act as exits also so you can never get stuck. At worst, you may lose a fare.
You may not be able to get stuck in the MTA ones, but you're right: some designs are easy to get stuck in.
When I was in about second or third grade, I went to the town swimming pool which had an Iron Maiden for an exit (the pool was heavily used). Of course, being curious, I wanted to see how far around I could go when I exited, and ended up getting stuck inside. They got a key to let the turnstile "reverse" so i could get back out, but it scared the daylights out of my mom! :)
There was an Iron Maiden at the western end of the Manhattan-bound entrance at Lorimer St. on the Canarsie which I used regularly during the three years we rode on that line. It always worked, and I never got stuck. I always liked the rhythmic sound it made as I pushed my way through: click, click-click, click-click click-click, and finally a clunk as it came to a stop. The exit was a floor-to-ceiling revolving door. Interestingly, the same type of exit door is used at Tivoli Gardens in Copenhagen.
Is that Iron Maiden still there at Lorimer St? I haven't been back to that station since June of 1970.
As Dave points out, you can't get stuck in the new Metrocard"iron maiden", but you could get stuck in the old token version. These had three openings into which someone could fit. If you put a token in, it would turn 1/3 of the way, letting the you in to the fare-paid area. These turnsiles were not intended to be used for exit. But if someone within the fare-paid zone didn't understand, and stepped into the available opening in the "iron maiden" at the moment someone outside was entering, that person would get stuck when the turnstile turned 120 degrees. There would be no way out (or back in) until someone else used the turnstile for entry. At that point the "victim" would be freed outside the fare-paid area, the turnstile having moved a total of 240 degrees.
Since the TA made the mistake of re-allowing strollers, etc. back on subways, how are they going to find a way for these customers to exit at a station with no attendant?
As a station agent I can answer that question: There are service gates and stations with wheelchair access have a metrocard opereated gate called "Autogate". You insert a special metrocard(Must be AFAS Metrocard[ADA Fare Access System]) the gate opens itself for entry or exit (yes, you swipe to exit for these).
If someone gets stuck in a turnstile (or elevator) we activate our alarm and advise that someone is stuck in a high qwheel (or elevator.) Police resaponse is swift and the person freed.
PSSST! The question was, what do they do at a station with NO attendant?
I would assume they remove the child, fold the stroller, and go. Now, if you have a bike, or a large package, you're screwed.
-Hank
P.S.-
More And More "Iron Madien" Only entrances Are opening Every Day. They just opened one At Union Sq. East (4,5,6,N,R,L) Last Week, And I am sure after grand central is done there will be one there. There is also no room or sign of any gate entrace/exit for weelchairs, strollers, etc. Then again, sadly, the NYC Subway was never built with the handicapped in mind. ( minus a few small exceptions)
ALL stations have at least one attended 24 hour booth. ALL stations that are shown on the map with the wheelchair symbol have the Autogate.
If you have packages, luggage, carriage, bicycle, etc. you should go to the 24 hour booth. I assure you, when the token is eliminated (and in my opinion dont look for it soon) there will be a 24 hour booth. We will be there to watch our customers.
Yes, however, the TA has stated that when the token is phased out ( I agree...no time soon) token booths will be turned into "Information Booths". Will the TA really pay someone $15-$20/hr to sit in a booth only to answer questions and open gates, on say, the Midnight Shift on the Fulton Local or any other low use station?
Once we dont have to "worry about the money" we will be able to survey station conditions which is currently done by supervision. I also expect that in remote stations we might operate gates via remote control. AT Church Ave on the 2, the booth is on the Manhattan side. I worked the booth. There is a buzzer in the booth and you push a button to open the gate on the Flatbush bound side. Taking it one step further, we might be at Nostrand and push the button for let's say Kingston.
Personally, we the recent concern over security, I think every station will have a human presence- the remote stations might have instructions for us to stay in the booth-- In other words "Security Guards"
***opinions expressed here are my own and not those of MTA or NYCT***
Not entirely true; The Dyre Ave line is unstaffed during the overnight hours. I figure the first few MVMs should go to those stations, since (when I last rode the line) fare was required, and there were no Iron Maidens. I recall a story a few months back where a couple of women were arrested for jumping the turnstiles after they couldn't buy a token or Metrocard at or near the station.
-Hank
OK-change that to "except for the Dyre Avenue Stations North of East 180th Street". You are right- and I did work at Dyre Ave! They gate in the booth overnight and for now they have token machines at these stations.
Suggestion for you to get a "employee of the month award" ...
Why aren't they considering a buzzer or something that a stuck customer can push in an emergency ?
Yes yes ... I know a lot of wise guys will be pushing that button just for fun, but that would be better then the day shift finding a dead customer in the Iron Madien on their tour !!!
Mr t__:^)
There are no pictures that I know of. However, they work and are shaped much like sliding glass doors ( same height, No way to jump or cheat it and with bars instead of glass ) Older ones were exit only, and only revolved in one direction. However the MTA has begun placing the new ones, which will revolve counter clockwise to enter if a metrocard is swiped, at stations where the booth is not open 24hrs. They are also different from the older version because the count the nuber of entries and exits. They do not accept tokens. Some stations which have them at certain exits, and no token booth (or a part time booth) are:
The west entrance to Dekalb Ave.
The North entrance to the southbound Bleeker St.
The Motague St. Entrance of the Court St. Station.
The entire 1/9 northbound from 207st to 242st, Franklin St 1/9, and several other locations. In fact, I saw a northbound station on the 1/9 with 4 of these thing installed....
-Hank
There are many, many people in Queens and Brooklyn (not to mention Staten Island!) who ride ONLY a bus and only board and disembark said bus nowhere near a subway station. Hence, they have no place to buy or refill a Metrocard. Don't tell me stores sell them, because at the only place I saw in northeastern Queens that had a sign advertising it, the owner seemed oblivious to its existence.
In order for a bus-only-not-near-a-subway commuter to obtain a Metrocard, one would have to travel to a station in ones' free time to get one (and of course, spend an extra fare doing so.)
Has anyone at the TA realized that the Metrocard WILL NOT WORK FOR EVERYONE?!
On Staten Island, cards are available at every branch of the Staten Island, Richmond County, and Northfield savings banks. Many check-cashing establishments, and it seems like every other deli sells them as well. And with most Staten Island trips going to/from the SI Mall, SI Ferry, or Manhattan, there are no problems with obtaining a metrocard, except at the Mall, where I haven't seen anyplace that sells them. As for those who take the bus and can't find a place that sells Metrocards, they use CHANGE, because they sure can't find tokens either.
-Hank
Two different answers:
1. On LI the two bus companies there (LI Bus & Suffolk Transit) would seem to have more of this problem then folks in NYC, but you don't see a lot of talk of the "problem" in the paper.
LI Bus bought a different machine then the TA is now tersting & installed them at Hempstead & Roosevelt Field. They're will ti install more if folks were screaming about it, but they're not.
2. One of the "private" bus companies that serves mostly express riders from the Bronx is adding a bill processing device to the Cubic farebox. Right now they're using a "drop box" & I understand that lots of folks are giving them bills for the $3.00 fare.
Mr t__:^)
The MTA Website has details on where to buy a MetroCard.
This is a very strange request guys, but here it goes. I desperately need some photos of subway trains covered with that disgusting graffiti (which plagued the subway system from 1971-1988). Yep- photos of those subway cars that forced us to cringe when they pulled into the station back in the 1970s and 1980s. They could be any model from R-10 series and later. If you could post them here, that would be fine. Or, you can e-mail me at gallant7@mailexcite.com and send them as an attached 'jpg' or 'gif' file. Any assistance will be greatly appreciated!
PS- I wish I had taken some still photos back in those days. I could kick myself today!
Cheers,
MIKE
Mike:
I saw a book about six months ago on just that subject--it seemed to glorify the graffiti artists. Had plenty of photos of cars, trains, stations. I'll try to remember or find the title and author
There is a book dedicated to Graffiti subway trains.
Its called SUBWAY ART BY Martha Cooper. It not at the Transit Museum
but you can get it at Borns N Noble for about $15 Dollars.
My personal guilty pleasure is the video "Style Wars", a documentary on graffiti and the break dancing culture of the early 80s. See the Subway Bibliography under Art and Graffiti for more info.
Does anyone out there have a copy of the following entitled book:
"Information and Instructions for Towerman in Connection with the Operation of Interlocking Plants New York Rapid Transit Corporation June 1st, 1925"
If you do let me know. I only want a Xerox copy.
Every Subway sandwich shop is like taking a tour of the IRT, it's construction and Alfred Ely Beach's Pneumatic subway of 1870. I wonder when the public sits down to eat a sandwich whether they understand the story of the history of NYCTA!!! Neat wall paper. I like the IND map from the 1930's. The Queens Line only goes to 169th Street station.
What did you guys think?
It's been a while since I've been in a Subway shop (they aren't my cup of tea, so to speak), but as I recall the main subway map shown on their wallpaper and counters shows Chrystie Street open and the Culver Shuttle still running. That would date it between late 1967 and early 1975.
The chains seem to have different era maps, depending on which store you're in. I've seen the pre-1948 version map with the dual contract dashes on the Flushing line
In Swindon, England, where I live we have a Subway Sandwich Bar. The wall covering showing subway lines does not appear to have been pasted to the wall with due regard to the actual system making for some interesting journeys i.e. take a No 7 to Metropolitan Avenue, or a No1 to Brooklyn. I cant find Stillwell Avenue which according to the wall is somewhere in the Bronx - still the foods not OK and it does remind me of NY
Simon Billis,
It appears you are in England. The #7 Flushing Line does not go to Metropolitan Avenue and the #1 ends at South Ferry at at the tip of Manhattan. Stillwell Avenue is in Coney Island in Brooklyn and not the Bronx. Tell me more about the Subway Sandwich Bar's art work!!!
I'd love to know where they get the wallpaper :)
--Mark
So would I!!! Does anyone know where they get the wall paper of the Subway Sandwich Shop? It images could be transferred to procelain on steel and used in the subway as historical artwork!!!
All of the Subway restaurants which I've been to in metro Denver have a Hagstrom's map from the late 60s-early 70s. It shows the KK along with the Chrystie St. connections. I love the reaction I get when I suggest there should be sandwiches named the IRT and IND, to go along with the BMT club. Usually they look at me and say, "Huh?" Apparently, none of these kids have ever been to New York, and know nothing about the subway.
Of course not, Subway is a franchise, so the kids in the stores come from where the franchise is located. Denver got rid of streetcars in the early 50's, Light Rail didn't show up until the '90's, and kids in general don't know much about what's in the rest of the world. Their relationship with subways is stuff like "Money Train" and 1-2-3 (remake).
Denver Tramways streetcars made their last run on May or June 3, 1950. They ran on 3 foot, 6 inch gauge track, same as Los Angeles. Our light rail line is now standard gauge.
You're right about kids' limited knowledge about the rest of the world today. Not to mention lack of geographical knowledge. I can't believe the number of people I've met who have never been to New York or, for that matter, east of the Mississippi River. Even the lady I'm seeing has never been to the Big Apple, although I've shown her lots of my photos.
Hey!
I'm 16 years old and think I have some knowledge of what's going on outside the realm of music, clothes and ladies(though it ain't much:)
I'm easily the youngest railfan in all of Philadelphia(or so I like to think).
What's up with the "Fear of the NE" that everyone except it's residents and business people have?
As to being a young railfan, I was running around Baltimore (and the streetcars) when I was 12. My dreams of being a motorman were fulfilled when, in early 1963 I became one on the #8 line out of York Road Car House. That all ended on November 3 of 1963, when car 7084 pulled into Irvington Car House at 5:23 AM and ended 104 years of passenger service. Car 7407 closed it all out when she pulled in 6:34 AM. I refused to drive buses and left the service on Monday, November 4 when I quit.
Now I've got 29 years with BSM, I'm an Instructor and Dispatcher and still love it. The real job just brings in the cash.
My favorite subway yard is Westchester Yard On #6 line.
Concourse - D line
What a fantastic view of this yard while riding the #4 Woodlawn elevated- I typically take pictures when I pass the yard.
cheers,
MIKE
179th Street Yard on the IRT Third Avenue El in the Bronx. Also, like Brooklyn Bridge Yard at Sands Street Terminal in Brooklyn.
My favorite subway yards are the Concourse B and D yard and the #4 train yard since i am 10 minutes away from these yards and i take the D train to work at 47-50th Street Rockefeller Plaza, or the #4 train to work if the D train has a problem.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Coney Island. Various perch points: Neptune Ave (F, north side of platform), ex-Belt Pkwy west roadway used during reconstruction of the Coney Island Creek viaduct, Shell Road, and the ride-through on an N train.
--Mark
Westchester SQ. on the 6 line because of the mixture of
R-29,R 33,R 36, and but least faverite R 62s
38th St. (Bklyn) Yards. Only a few blocks from my home as a "yout",it had an amazing variety of equipment:Diesel locomotives,Low V's and R-1/9's converted to work service,flat cars,cranes,etc. Plus a bus garage (the ORIGINAL 5th Ave.)right next door!
R143 is 60" long or 67" long??? I know those R143 going to "L" line and "M" line in 2001 replace R40m,40,and 42. Any plan to make more new subway cars for Divison B in the future???
They are 60 foot cars.
Although the R-143s are initially destined to go to the L for the purpose of testing new signaling equipment, it wouldn't suprise me if three to five years down the line they end up on the Sixth or Eighth Ave. lines, while the Eastern Division gets back their R-40s/R-40M and R-42s, or possibly even the R-38s or R-42s. For the past 40 years the Eastern Division lines have always gotten the B division hand-me-downs, and the nrew trains they did get before that, the R-16, wasn't anything to write home about.
The R143 will be 60' cars in ABBA configuration. They will have to stay on the 8 car lines of the Eastern Division. From the latest I heard, displaced M/K rebuilt R42's would be reassigned to the N line, with R68 cars going to the new-whatever-the-route-designation-is-going-to-be line going thru the 63 St. tunnell connecting with the Queens IND.
Does anyone have pictures of the Polo Grounds Shuttle in the subway section between Sedgewick Avenue and Jerome-Anderson Avenue stations? Has anyone been in this tunnel?
> Has anyone been in this tunnel?
Does riding through the tunnel in the 1950s count? If so, then yes, I've been in it.
I visted the stations at Sedgewick Av and Jerome-Anderson Avs about ten years ago.The platforms are still intact at Sedgewick Av under the Deegan Expressway. The platform at Jerome-Anderson Av at least the portion of it still remaining can be reached by climbing up a short enbankment from the Jerome Av side. The access to this station from the Anderson Av side was still visible in the form of walled up stairwells at that time. I would advise anyone who might wish to vist these stations to go in a group.
Redbird
When I went there last Sedgwick was pretty much how you described it. At Jerome-Anderson there was a small stairway leading up, also a rocky outcrop but both have been fenced off. You really can't see anything from the ground, not even the platform sticking out. As far as the Anderson Avenue side I really didn't see any sign of walled-up staircases - where exactly were they located? North, south, east, west corner(s)?
As far as safety is concerned, Jerome Ave. is a main thoroughfare out in the open (fairly safe at least during the day). Sedgwick was kind of remote but there were kids playing in the playground with very little chaperoning, so I would assume the area is pretty safe. I was the least comfortable with Anderson Ave., which is up a steep hill away from any major thoroughfares, and lots of people hanging around. The people seemed OK but I felt like I stuck out.
Andrew: It used to be possible to climb up that rocky slope and look at the platform through the fencing. As for the Anderson Av side there was a the staircase that seemed to have been built into a building facade but was bricked up. This was about 12 years ago and I suppose the structure may have been torn down by now. The access to Sedgewick Av was I believe via a footbridge over the Expressway. This footbridge used to end in mid-air near the Metro-North tracks and extreme caution was called for to use it.It sounds as though you have been there recently. How did you get down to the Sedgewick Av platform? You sparked my interest though, I think I'll have to make a trip there to see how things have changed. Thanks for the response.
Redbird
Tell me about your experience. I would like to know.
Ed,
Tell me about your ride through the tunnel on the Polo Grounds Shuttle. Describe the tunnel construction and signaling within.
Well, it's been over 40 years, so I don't remember too much of the details. At that time, the line was operated using old IRT subway equipment (at that time, I didn't know the differnce between a Hi-V and a Low-V), a single two-car train shuttling back and forth over what had been the downtown track.
I've noticed that the two oddball subway lines, the 'L' and #7 and maybe the Rockaway Shuttle(I really want to call it the 'H'), are the only lines with but one connection to another line. I see that there is a sort of problem with N/S trains in Brooklyn and Queens(with there being none in the territory of the 'L' except for the Broadway El and the #7 at QBP worthy of a track connection).
Why is that?
There are a variety of reasons why subway routings may seem strange. Among other things, the main focus of the subway always has been (and still is) commuting to Manhattan. The fact that there's only one line connecting Brooklyn and Queens, and none at all connecting The Bronx and Queens, is not so strange when you look at it from that perspective. Another consideration is that the subway consisted of three more-or-less competing companies prior to unification in 1940. That separate-companies period coincided with much of the system's construction. Clearly, if the subway had always been in the hands of one operator, there wouldn't be four lines running to Coney Island. Finally, city population patterns were sometimes quite different when the lines were built, compared to what they are today. That's most notable in terms of the gaps in service, such as the lack of service to much of eastern Queens (which wasn't as densely populated before 1940 as it is today).
The L and the #7 were not always single lines.The Flushing Line also used to be served by the IRT Second Avenue El and the BMT El Shuttle to Queens Plaza which connected to BMT Broadway trains. The #13 14 St-Fulton St Express used the L tracks between 8 Avenue and Atlantic Av and the #14 Bway-Bklyn Lcl used the tracks between Atlantic Av and Rockaway Parkway.
Regards,Redbird
My favorite station is City Hall on the Lexington Avenue Line.
86th street on the R in bay ridge------one of the system's best.
I like Atlantic Avenue on the L. It's almost like something out of a history book, what with the abandoned trackways and platforms and the ruins of the old LIRR powerhouse. Yet it still functions just fine, and even has a direct connection to the LIRR.
A toss-up between:
Houston Street on the 1, 59th/Lex Complex on the 4/5/6/N/R, 5th Avenue N/R, and Cortlandt Street N/R.
I also like 50th on the 1, 168 on the 1.
My favorite subway station Bowling Green and Borough Hall on the No. 4&5 line platforms
I will vote by division:
IRT - Mott Avenue (149th St-Grand Concourse)
BMT - Wilson Avenue (Canarsie Line) Montrose Avenue (same) (TIE)
IND - Utica Avenue (Fulton Street)
It seems like the stations with the best artwork get the vote!
Wayne
Hey Wayne! Just to tell you what the TA thinks of history, the marblized "NY CENTRAL LINES" name in the passageway to the lower level IRT lines at 149 St and the Concourse has been covered by a Bergen Street Shop sign pointing you in the right direction to a 2/5 train. Oh well! So much for preserving history! If I had my way, I probably would've cut the tiling out and put it in the Transit Museum.
I may have more scrap news for you which I'll email to you....
-Constantine
Adams Street on the Myrtle Avenue Elevated. On the station house was on a corner while the elevated turned a corner.
Also, like Sand Street terminal on the BRT and King County Elevated RR.
Coney Island - Stillwell Avenue.
Atlantic Avenue on the Canarsie Line! Just look at her - 82 years old and still shining!
Wayne
My favorite Elevated station is the Bedford Park Blvd station of the #4 train. From there i can look into the Concourse yard of the D and B trains.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Mine's a toss up between Coney Island - Stillwell Ave and Broadway Junction - East New York. Lots of action and history at both stations.
--Mark
I like Smith/9th for the view of the Manhattan Skyline. Second place goes to Broadway Junction/Eastern Parkway Complex on the J/L.
My Favorite Elevated stations are E 180 St and Stillwell Ave
How about Smith-9th on the F/G?..if nothing else but for the view.. I also enjoy the sheer remoteness of some of the Rockaway stations...
The R-44 (5202-5479) is on the A line. The R-46 (5482-6258) is on the F, G and R lines. Interiors are in beige and brown wood with orange and yellow plastic seats.
Does R-46s run on the B, D, N and Q lines
R44/46 ran on B,D,in the 70s and N in the 80s before switch to Astoria line in 85 or 86??
R-44s did run on the D in the early 70s. I know they were tested on the line.
In the early 80s, I believe, the R-46s were transferred to the D line. They didn't last long - people along the line complained of vibration from the trucks. They were put back on the F line.
R-44s are primarily on the A line now.
R-46s are on primarily on the H Rockaway Park shuttle, F, G & R lines, though you'll also see them on the N or E once in a while.
--Mark
You will not see R-46s on the H or the N. R-46 come out of Jamaica Shop ONLY. H comes out of Pitkin and N out of Coney Island and never the shops shall meet.
Does R-46s run on the J, L, M and Z lines?
No!!! J,M,Z & L come out of East NY yard. R-46s are based in Jamaica.
Ugh, no!
See the Subway FAQ for a somewhat recent list of car assignments.
(Could you maybe post all your questions in a single message? Also if you are new to the site you might want to explore it entirely-- click on the www.nycsubway.org logo at the top of any page to go to the main index. SubTalk is not all there is here!)
-Dave
Mr. Pirmann
This guy i think is playing around. Look at every responds this
guy made. 2/4/99 every thing he wrote was about blinking lights
Now he is mixing up equitment. HE IS NOT FOR REAL!
March 1992
N service returns to the Montague Street Tunnel
October 1992
S shuttle replaces H to the Rockaways
A special rush hour service to Rockaway Park
A shuttle operates between Euclid Av and Lefferts Blvd.
R service cut back to 71 Av.
I was reading a book call "New York City Subway Cars" and I was looking at R40m. I saw a picture of damage R40M # 4500-01. Then i was looking at Cars wrecked/scrapped while in revenue service and i don't see no information of R40M #4500 but it has #4501 information and i want to know what happened to R40M # 4500?
I believe both 4500 and 4501 are still in service.
Wayne
They most certainly are. #4501 collided with R16 #6304 on 20 May 1970 at Roosevelt Avenue and had her bonnet broken and her sign side damaged. She was repaired using sheet stainless steel from Slant R40 #4200 and received a new bonnet as well. She was about one year old when the accident happened, and the damage, as ugly as it may have appeared, was repairable.
#6304 was not as fortunate. She was sheared open when she made contact with the curtain wall, and two of her passengers died.
Wayne
R33WF/R36WF subway cars blink on and off
R26/28/29/33/36 Redbirds blink on and off
I can't believe there is a thread about which cars blink on and off
For the record, the original carbody lighting design called for
the lights to be run directly off the 600V supply (with a
polarity reverser relay when flourescents came along). A relay
called the ELR (Emergency Lighting Relay) was also across the line.
When the 600V failed (car crosses a contact rail gap), the relay
goes off and the normally-closed contacts of the relay apply 37V
battery voltage to a set of emergency, or "battery" lights.
On the IRT redbirds, these are incandescent bulbs located along
the center of the car. There are some inside the long flourescent
glass fixture, and there is one each in the center of each axiflow
fan.
To the best of my knowledge, the only cars left in passenger service
that still function this way are the World's Fair, aka Flushing,
aka Corona R33S/R36 fleet. When the R26/28/29 fleet was overhauled
by MK, the battery lights were removed from the center of the fans
and PA speakers replaced them. I can't remember for sure if the
same thing was done on the R33/R36 Mainline cars that 207 St rebuilt.
On these cars, a solid-state converter replaces the older motor-
generator set for converting 600 to battery voltage, and the
same converter unit also contains a solid state lighting inverter to
take the battery voltage, chop it to AC, and step it up to drive
the flourescent bulbs. When 600 goes off on these cars, the lights
stay on fully for up to about 30 seconds. In prolonged power-out,
the inverter gradually shuts down banks of lights until only two
lights are on in the entire car. I don't think any incandescent
battery lights are used, but someone in the shops would have a
better recollection of that.
The Flushing cars were rebuilt in 1985 by Coney Island, before the
more thorough car overhaul program was devised. They left a lot
of "old technology" behind, including the M-G and the classic SMEE
pneumatic units. That's why those are the only cars that still
go "puff" when the doors close.
The lights on the R44 contracts and onwards never blinked.
Jeff, you are 100% correct. The inverter ballasts were installed during GOH on all cars except the Corona #7 fleet. The R-42s came with converters but used an inverter card for all lights prior to overhaul. As an RCI, I had to carry boxes of 20 Amp cartridge fuses to keep them lit on the weekend.
R-10 (1803-1852, 3000-3349) was on the C line from 1985-1989. R-10s were painted in green. Interiors are in beige with dark grey plastic seats and green doors. Those R-10s were very loud. The R-10 was the loudest subway cars in the NYC subway system
I took the R10 three time in my life and i don't really like R10 because is very loud while riding. One time i took the R10 on the C line from downtown manhattan to Rockaway park and i didn't enjoy riding the R10.
I rode on the R-10s once in my life. It was a third grade class trip to the Museum of natural history. Big, green, fans on ceiling, and a druink at the end of the car. You couldn't understand the intercom, and the doors closed with a 1" gap. Big, loud, fun. I forgot what we went to the museum for.....
"Big, loud, fun...."
You said it! One man's mead is another man's poison. I remember riding the R-10's on the LL. Time of your life, huh kid?
The R-10s will forever be synonimous with the A line, having been exclusively assigned there for more than 25 years. I rode many, many A trains of R-10s in my day, mostly from 42nd St. to 14th St. and up CPW. I also remember walking down the platform at 81st St. after disembarking from an AA, and seeing an A train thunder past at breakneck speed.
The R-10s were on the noisy side, no doubt about that. Even so, the noise level during their heyday was tolerable, and nothing compared to the ear-splitting noise level of Chicago's L trains in the subway. It was only towards the end of their lives that the R-10s were really noisy, especially if you were on a car with a noisy truck.
I can honestly say that I'm probably the biggest R-10 fan around, next to Mr. R-10 himself, William Padron, and miss those cars very much. The A line will never be the same without them.
Yep-they were noisy, and loud and FAST! I remember when the T.A. would feature the newest car arrival on the system map; once I got ahold of one (albeit a very long time ago) which featured the R10; and quoted a speed of 80MPH - of course it was never achieved within the confines of the subway, but it did inidcate that it COULD!
I rode the R10's from Brooklyn to Manhattan as a child with my folks before we moved to Queens 1953 to 1963; only to ride once again to Bklyn Tech after riding a BMT Standard (14) or R16 (14/15) on the Jamaica Line from 168th St to Bway Jnctn, then switching to a R10 on the "A" to Lafayette Ave. Home was via the "A" R10 to W4th, then the "E/F" which were always R1/9's till about 1966....Also remember what I believe was the FIRST air conditioned car in the system 4149, running on the "F" line (back when the "F" terminated at Bway-Lafayette).
During that time period, I agree with the poster who indicated there was NO P.A. system. The conductor had to go outside between cars to open/close doors. I believe the first cars with a P.A. system on the IND were the R16's, which were used VERY briefly on the "A", before they ended up on the Jamaica Line (15).
Yes, R10s were a part of my formative subway years and a target of my early number-gathering. I have spotted all 400 of them, including almost all of their original #1800s numbers. Some of my fond memories of them are #3194 as the lead car of a n/b "A" running from 145th to 168th at 50+mph - it was a dark car (emergency lites under the hubs of the fans - NEAT) - #3062's untimely demise in July of 1970 (she got creamed by an R-6-3 #986 - I have her dog tag), #3124 in its psychedelic coat of graffitti back in 1973, #2974 as an "H" train roaring over the trestle in 1987, the wreck of #3333 and #3274 in 1978, and finally, seeing them passing Fulton Street BMT station on their farewell trip in 1988. I tried chasing them on the following train but 'twas for naught. I never saw them again.
Wayne
The R-10's have always been my favorite. I used to take a circuitous route to shool just so I could ride on them. Rather than take the D or B at Broadway Lafayette to Dekalb (Yes, some B trains stopped at DeKalb back then), I would take the LL to Lorimer and catch the GG to Fulton St. Another variation involved taking the F to Jay St., then taking an A to Hoyt, then either the GG to Fulton or a CC to Lafayette. I remember when they painted them green...It was like a dream come true! And now they're gone. :(
The R-10's were fast, reliable, and, to quote Gene Sansone, like "Panzer Tanks."
Did R-10s ran on the F line?
R10 does run on F line in the late 70s and early 80s. R10 ran on A line in the late 60s and early 70s, B,C,CC,D,E,F,And J line. R10 ran the C line in early 80s untill retire in the 1990.
R10 did indeed appear on the "F" line in the early 1980s, when R10 was assigned to the Jamaica yard and used mostly on the "GG". It was not the regular train - R46 was - and was used mostly as extras or as a fill-in. But I did see them there, albeit rarely.
Also - R16 also ran on the "E" and/or the "F" in the 1970s. Talk about a slow express run!
Wayne [mrSlantR40]
The R-10s found their way to Jamaica Yard when the truck cracking problem on the R-46s reached crisis proportions. The R-46s went over to the then-CC for rush hour service in an attempt to hold their accumulated mileage down, and the R-10s were assigned to the E and F lines. I saw one E train of R-10s during my last visit to New York before moving out to Colorado, on September 5, 1980.
Back when they ruled supreme on the A line, the R-10s rarely made cameo appearances on other lines. Some were used on the B when it made its debut; others ran on the HH and occasionally the CC. After being displaced from the A by the R-44s and slant R-40s, the R-10s ran mostly on the CC and later C line, but they were used on just about every other IND route at one time or another. I even saw and rode a D train of R-10s once, and the way it roared up CPW, you would have thought you were on an A. Since its destination curtains didn't have Brighton Beach signs, the Brooklyn-bound destination sign was left blank.
The last A train of R-10s I rode on was about 1979. The funny thing was that the end cars were signed up for the A, while the 8 other cars had CC signs. Apparently, they took a CC train and slapped an additional car on each end. It didn't matter - for that day at least, those ten R-10s were back where they belonged!
BTW, ATRAIN and R-10 were two of my choices for personalized license plates when I first pondered the move. SUBWAY and R-32 were two others. 8AVEXP, which is what my plates now say, was the last combination I came up with. When I picked up a new application, that was the first choice I put down.
I think "Thunderbirds" would be a good nickname for the R-10s, in keeping with the bird theme (Redbirds, Bluebirds) which seems to be popular.
I was particularly fond of the white-and-aqua paint scheme, with the narrow aqua band around the car at the belt rail.
You mean the R-10 Bluebirds? They were repainted about the same time the R-33/36WF trains arrived and some were even given the new TA logo. It was certainly a better color choice than what the MTA came up with, though I think the Redbird R-10 in the photo archive looks pretty cool.
Thunderbirds definitely fits if you were a passenger waiting to get on a AA local on CPW when an A of R-10s rolled by. You could hear the rumble when the train was 10 blocks away, though it was backwards from real thunder -- the thunder came first and you didn't see the lightning (from the third rail) until the train raced through the station.
The r-10's were and are my favorite car by far. Unfortunately, I tortured my poor mother as a child with them. Between the ages of 5 and 8 or so, when I would go to work with my mother on a rare day, I would beg her to ride the CC home instead of the D (we lived at the 205th stop.) Of course I had no idea how annoying that may be to take the extreme local from Penn Station to Bedford Park and change would be compared to getting the Manhattan and Bronx express. All I knew was that I liked the single corner seats and the fans. Until this day, they remain my most treasure car... For reasons beyond the single seat and fans....
You would have liked them even better on the A.
That hits a slight sore spot since the A is my favorite line and I missed that ride...
Sorry if I hit a raw nerve. I meant it sincerely, though. To me, nothing will ever top an A train of R-10s rocketing along CPW, and I'm thankful I was able to ride on as many of them as I did. Maybe it was the noise which made them seem to go even faster than they actually did. I also managed to ride on a few D trains of R-1/9s along that stretch, but that's a whole different subject.
If you're an A aficionado, your appreciation for the R-10s would have gone up to next level. They were second to none. BTW, at what point in time did you ride the CC? Up until 1979-80, you could still find an occasional A train of R-10s, even though the slant R-40s had taken over that route.
I basically rode the CC and D since I was around three years old, 1976 until 1988 or so. And at the time, the Concourse line was the worst one. To add insult to injury, in the mid 80's when they split the D line into two because of Manhattan bridge work, the TA gave all the new r-68's to the Brooklyn D, leaving the Bronx D with the WORST cars in the system at the time, without a doubt.
To be honest, I would rate the D as my second favorite route after the A. My first ride on a D train was on April 30, 1967, which included a trip from Rockefeller Center all the way to Coney Island via the Culver line (the Chrystie St. connection hadn't opened yet). I rode on an A for the first time three months later, on July 20.
While I've ridden on more A trains than any other train by far, the D actually beats out the A on two counts in my personal experiences: I've ridden on more D trains of R-1/9s than A trains of those venerable prewar juggernauts, and I've ridden on a couple of D trains of R-1/9s along CPW, motors wailing away. I never did ride any prewar A trains along that stretch.
When I visited New York in October of 1984, after a four-year absence, the D line was served by R-32s and R-42s. Speaking of R-32s, I remember when they first appeared on the D, right after the Chrystie St. connection opened. Riding them along CPW was a real treat; they streaked along effortlessly.
P. S. I once rode on a D of R-10s, in 1978 or 1979.
Well, looks like you Subtalkers are spending more time here (or there are more of you now). So far since the server upgrade a little over 5 days ago there have been 38,500 accesses to Subtalk/Bustalk. We never broke 35,000 in a 7 day period (measured Sunday 3am to Sunday 3am) before.
Thanks for your patronage!
-Dave
(no need to follow up with praise this time :-)
actually, these numbers may be squishy. I at least had some glitches locally which caused multiple visits within a 24 hr slot. All that aside now that this machine is behaving differently, I can and do appreciate the lovely pix at the top.As always thanks for providing the first place I visit each eve.
P. S. As I suspected when returning to index it call this a new visit--so if I respond to ten posts I have visited 11 times in one day??
> P. S. As I suspected when returning to index it call this a new
> visit--so if I respond to ten posts I have visited 11 times in one
> day??
Yes but this is the way it always worked.
-Dave
That is what happens if you click the "Return to Subtalk Index" but if you instead backtrack through your history, you will simply continue your present visit. (Of course you don't pick up any new posts that way)
See - now that the server's faster I can afford to "return to the message index" more often. So that's probably why the numbers are changing. Oh BTW thanks for straightening out the thread/response displays (all the little symbols are appearing correctly now at the bottom).
Wayne
Is it my imagination, or did access to the main nycsubway.org server speeded up when Subtalk moved to brighton.nycsubway.org? Sure seems like it to me in beautiful Baltimore. (Where the Towering Inferno came real!)
Why doesn't MTA rebuilt Third Aveune EL? There is too many people on the #2 and #5 train and outside by 149st i see people coming out of train station and there a long line waiting for BX55 bus. Why this they torn down Third Aveune EL in the 70s?
The Third Aveune El in the Bronx if you remember, the stations were old and not to many people used it. Also the so called Second Ave Subway was supposed to take its place but due to the money crunch of the 70's it was never done. The NY post and Daily News last week ran a few articles about plans to build some new lines to the Bronx and Brooklyn to help solve this problems.
Charlie Muller of Bedfor Park Blvd.
Was the 3rd AV El. in the bronx built before the IRT?
Russ, that i do not know. Maybe someone else knows if the 3rd AV El was built before the IRT.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd
2nd ave,3th ave, 6th ave, 9th ave and Brooklyn EL was built before 1904
The Third Av. El in the Bronx was known as somthing like the Suburban Line in its early days.
Right, you win the prize!!!
[2nd ave,3th ave, 6th ave, 9th ave and Brooklyn EL was built before 1904]
The main portions in Manhatan, yes. But not the northern portions in the Bronx. As someone else noted, the original northern terminal of the Third Ave. el was "Bronx Park", locatd I believe just north of Fordham Rd. The extension along Webster Ave. to Gun Hill and White Plains roads was built in conjunction with the building of the White Plains Road elevated line. The two-level station at Gun Hill/White Plains was certainly constructed as a unit, the upper level wasn't built above a pre-existing Third Ave. el station.
The same argument applies to the northern reaches of the Ninth Ave. el (later the Polo Grounds shuttle); the section in the Bronx was constructed in conjunction with the Jerome Ave. elevated line.
The particular portion of the el at Bedford Park Blvd was part of
the last expansion of the IRT Elevated Railway System in 1920.
I am going to write a paper on the subject of the 3rd Ave El in the Bronx. I wrote a description of the 205th St Subway Station.
The 3rd Ave. elevated predates the IRT except for the portion between Fordham Road and Gun Hill Road, which was built along Webster Avenue and Gun Hilll Road. The Manhattan portion opened between 1878 and 1880; the Bronx portions up to Fordham Road were built from 1887 until 1901, in stages. The Bronx portion was originally the Suburban Rapid Transit Co., and provided a shuttle to the 2nd and 3rd Ave. lines at 129th St. By the late 1890's through trains at a nickel fare were offered; at the same time, the entire Manhattan and Bronx el network became the Manhattan Railway Company. In 1903 the IRT leased the Manhattan for 999 years in order to integrate its new subways with the els. That is why the Webster Avenue portion did not open until 1920, constructed (under the Dual Contracts) in conjunction with an extension of the original IRT Bronx line (along Westchester Avenue/Southern Blvd./Boston Road) to White Plains Road and 241 St. Under the Dual Contracts, the original 3rd Ave. el was reconstructed with a third express track from Chatham Square to Fordham Road.
When the el was demolished south of 149th St. in 1955, the Bronx portion was retained because it served an area without any alternative rail transit. By the early 1970's population losses in the south-central Bronx and the deterioration of the el structure were arguments in favor of its demolition.
Unlike the Brooklyn El's, the Bronx El's were build by the IRT except the 3rd Ave. El?
The Bronx Els were built by the IRT as part of the Dual Contracts except for the section of the Third Av. El south of Bronx Park (The Suburban), and the section between 149th St. and Bronx Park (a different Bronx Park) which was part of the original IRT. In many cases, as also happened in Brooklyn, El Trains operated over some of the new lines while connections to the subway were being constructed. All existing elevated structure in the Bronx is considered 'subway' trackage. The only remaining active original el in the system is that between East New York & Crescent St. Some unused pieces may remain around Broadway Junction and at Brodway-Myrtle.
The Third Avenue El in the Bronx was known originally as the suburban line. It originally operated to Bronx Park and there was car elevated there.
Does anyone know anything about that abandoned subway station on the 1,9 between 88th and 96th streets?
It is the 91 Street Station.
Are there others like it? Is there a way to get down to see them? Why are they abandoned? Forgive my naive questions if they are obvious--I don't know much about the subway in NY.
Ahh you must be a newcomer to this site! Check out our pages on Disused and Abandoned Stations and you shall be enlightened! :-)
-Dave
Several stations were abandoned in the late 1950s on the IRT lines when the platforms were expanded to handle longer trains. Along with 91st St on the 1/9, the City Hall, 18th and Worth St. stations on the 6 also were closed.
On the BMT, the Myrtle Ave. station was closed when DeKalb was lengthened and flying junctions that were built on the Brooklyn-bound side were put in where the platform was located.
As fas as I know, Dean St. on the Franklin Shuttle is the only El station that was abandoned without the entire line being taken down (like Third Ave., where the lower level of Gun Hill Road could be considered a partial abandonment)
You can also throw in 19th St. on the PATH, though I don't know if the platforms at 14th and 23rd were ever lengthened.
> You can also throw in 19th St. on the PATH, though I don't know
> if the platforms at 14th and 23rd were ever lengthened.
I am guessing that they have been lengthened. Witness the ends of the platforms that are almost inside the tunnels. This is especially apparent at the south ends of the 9th and Christopher St. stations. The stations at 14th & 23rd also seem to have been lengthened (note the tapering ends so that the extreme edge of the platforms is no more than a foot or so wide!) This is a safety problem even today so it's unlikely they were built like this, and instead built to extend the platforms at all possible costs.
The uptown line can still only accommodate 7 car trains and that's with the extreme ends of the trains off the platforms.
Actually its still possible to see the location of the H&M 28 Street Station if you look very carefully at the tops of the roof columns when leaving 33 Street.
Redbird
It seems that the 91st street station has sparked yet another interest. It is what got me into the hobby of subways. You look out the window and see an abandoned station and say, what the heck is that, and the next day you are a member of the Transit Museum. Go figure.
Welcome aboard. It's unfortunate that they are not
doing any more (at this time) Day One of the IRT
tours. That tour allowed us to actually explore 91st St.,
18th St.(East Side), and the originally City Hall
station.
It is possible it might appear in the next Transit Museum season. I found a tour sponsered by a CUNY continuing education program whose description says that they go into City Hall. It might be an old description though.
My favorit is the fifth avenue station on the E and F lines, the Whole 42nd and Times Square station......lots of tunnels, and Broadway and Nassau with all the ramps and stairs. I like deep stations because it shows how deep the subway is in some areas especially the long ramp all the way up from the 7 train to the N and R at Times Square. Funny how you are still underground. Finally my favorite station is Wall street station with the old wooden booth on the south side and the color motif is cool too.
My experience is limited to Chicago.
My favorite L and Subway Stations in Chicago Are:
The Washington, Monroe,Jackson one platform with three stations in it on the Blue line below Dearborn and Red below state Street. This has to be our coolest subway station(s). What is also cool about it is the transfer between the two subways ( they are right next to each other, 1 city block apart) you walk underneath the platform and tracks throught a tunnel and back above to station level in the other subway station, so you are acually below the subway! And of course the three stations in one continuous platform. It just says at the areas of the platform you aren't suppost to enter not to enter there, surprisingly I have never seen any homeless there or any remains of them and there are no human waste smells.
My favorite Elevated Station here would be tough. I like Quincy/Wells for it's Old fashioned style and how it was renovated to look like it was back in the 1890's. Also the New Library station in the loop at State/Van Buren is pretty cool with the way it covers the sidewalk with a massive roof and just the new age style of the station.
Outside of Downtown (and Chicago for that fact) The Forest Park terminal on the Blue Line Congress-Forest Park Branch is pretty neat. The roof over the station is a steel type design and it covers not only the island platform but also the tracks completely. Plus the train yards are on the other side of the massive park-n-ride lot and you can watch trains turn around in the park-n-ride lot.
BJ
underground New York a toss-up between 34th &6th--a wonderful labyrinth or W 4th st its so massive so IND
above NYSmith 9th
Chgo extant Howard still the most complex
I like Wilson Avenue on the "L" for:
a) the upstairs/downstairs platforms with the view of the cemetery on the upper level
b) the multicolored tile - there are 28 different colors in it
c) the fact that the station's lower level looks underground but it's really at street level
d) the unique entrance and passageway.
I also have others too numerous to list.
Wayne
Hello SubTalkers, LIVE from Bangkok, Thailand.
I'm winding up a two-week vacation here. It's a wonderful country, with terrific people. The food can't be beat -- and the exchange rate makes travel extremely economical.
It took a while, but I figured out how to connect to the 'Net without it costing a fortune. Most telecommunications gateways charge $1/minute to connect to "on-line" services in the US, such as CompuServe or AOL. However there are numerous Internet Cafes, where you can use the 'Net for as little as $1.75/hour. But, my Thai friend found an ISP that gives out a 10-hour free demo, so that's how I'm connected now.
To the point: If any city needed rail transporation, this is it. Until the early 60's, Bangkok had a pretty good electric streetcar system. In fact, the son of the founder of the Seashore Trolley Museum showed me some 16mm film his father had taken here around that time while riding the systems of Asia. But like most systems around the world, the trolley gave way to diesel buses. And they are everywhere here! Belching huge amounts of black smoke.
Same with trucks, motorcycles, and many cars. There are no emmissions controls here; it's the most polluted air I've ever experienced.
I had heard that the traffic was "legendary," but figuring that since I grew up in NYC, I'd seen it all. NOT! Remember when the gas tank truck overturned on the LIE on a late Friday afternoon last summer, and the entire Island shut down? Well, that's Bangkok on a good day! It can take 2-3 hours to go 20 miles.
The good news is that a modern city rail system is finally being built. Almost all of the overhead structure is up (single concrete piers, rising about 50 feet above the center of main streets, expanding to a dual trackway). I did not see any of the rail cars, but there are picture around, and they look a bit like modern versions of the RER express trains in Paris. The system is due to open its initial portion late this year, and none too soon! If the economy improves, there are plans to expand the system too.
Well, time to go out and do some final shopping before the 20+ hours of flying back to Boston tomorrow. And see you on the radio in NYC in a week.
Oh, by the way, it's been a humid 93F most days. And that's Bangkok Traffic and Weather Together.
Passed through Bangkok on my way to Singapore a few years ago. Agree that the folks there are very nice.
The humidity there must have always been above 80% even in the middle of the day. The temperature/humidity index must have ben awful. Singapore has a great rapid transit system though (called the MRT or Mass Rapid Transit). Even got to ride in the cab for a while courtesy of the NYC Transit System tee-shirt I was wearing while in the system.
--Mark
Todd, Thanks for sharing this with us :-)
For me transit news with a varity keeps drawing me back to this site for more & more input.
Mr t__:^)
If the R-44 are coupled in numerical sequence then the last two cars;5478x256 and 5479x257 must be coupled as an A-B unit. Does anyone know if this is true?
Thanks,Redbird
5478 - 79 is mated to 5404 - 05. I'll be fowarding my cross reference list of R-44/46 cars to Dave, later today...
Before 1990 I was in the F line in Queens and got off to take the R train to manhattan. So I saw a R46 With A-B-A-B-B-A on G line before they renumbeing. Also the G line have A-A-A-B-B-A.
13 G trains are in the A-A A-B-B-A configuration. The 14th is, as you stated, in the A-B A-B-B-A configuration. The A-B unit is 6206-07 (formerly 1206-07). 6207 is the only R-46 that can still be operated from the #1 end of the B car (yard moves only) using a mini controller called a hostler. The A-A units are numnbered 6208-6210 etc. (even numbers only)
I was wondering if #5480 and #5481 are the A-B pair. I haven't seen them, so I'm not sure if they're even out there.
There's a few odd bunches in the R44s
#5246-7 with #5336-7 is another.
I originally had #5316-5317-5405-5318 (#5319 was a fire victim)
and #5478-5479-5403-5404, so I'll have to make some corrections.
Wayne
5480 and 5481 were never used. The R-44 end at 5479 and the R-46 start at 5482. Perhaps it was hoped at one time to repair two of the wrecked units to fill the gap and make an even number of 4 car sets.
Redbird
Recently I was looking at an interactive test that purports to rate your chances of becoming a victim of violent crime. The test is sponsored by the Nashville Police Department and is at www.nashville.net/~police/risk/beaten.html. Some of the questions are a bit dopey - for example, one of them asks whether you wear a raincoat or overcoat over a suit ... what in the world could *that* possibly have to do with crime risks???
Anyway, I took the test, and as I suspected I had a low risk rating. But according to the risk profile, one dangerous habit of mine is that I commute by train or bus. According to the geniuses at the Nashville P.D., using mass transit "puts me in contact with carless criminals." Guess old prejudices die hard ...
> one of them asks whether you wear a raincoat or overcoat over a
> suit ... what in the world could *that* possibly have to do with
> crime risks???
suit = well off. More likely that the suit wearer is carrying money, credit cards, cell phones, laptop computer, etc.
I saw that stupid test, and I wanted to e-mail them about that very issue, but there was no return e-mail address on the page.
As to the questions like the raincoat over a suit, and other suit-related questions, what is the bloody point? On the off chance that someone will rob you, don't wear nice clothes, wear a crappy digital watch and carry a crappy bag instead of a nice briefcase? I know that I'm not going to stop putting on a jacket and tie for work on the off chance that some moron will get the (WRONG!) idea that I must be rich and decide to rob me. Same with having a nice car -- I'm not driving a luxury car by any stretch of the imagination (a '98 Ford Escort), but I'm not going to drive a junker just to keep it from being stolen.
I just went back and looked at the test, and it was even stupider than I remembered it being. According to the test, if you want to reduce your chance of being a victim, you:
*should not walk in public more than five times a month,
*should answer the door unarmed,
*should not go to business or trade conventions,
*should not go to nightclubs or dance halls, or
*should not travel more then 1000 cumulative miles from your home city in a year.
I'm not making these up! Doing the opposite of anything on the above list adds points to your score as a potential victim. Who bloody well wrote this? A life lived according to most of this advice would be a mere existence, not worth living.
Another idiotic thing on the test concerned use of ATMs after dark. All right, that can be dangerous in certain places. But the creators of the test then suggested that ATMs be located in police stations! Yep, I can just imagine the cops enthusiastically embracing that idea.
Seriously, though, we can laugh about how stupid the test is, but its jaundiced view of mass transit does reflect an all-too-common attitude.
If ya wear cowboy boots, a Stetson Hat, duster and a string tie ya must be OK pilgrim but if ya wear a suit and tie you must be an easy mark. Good ole boys don't use transit anyway. (none available) A pick up with a well stocked gun rack is a good deterent to crime.
I'm 26 - but according to this survey "It would be a good idea [for me] to make out a will" Actually when I included that I could "run over three hundred meters (300 M) without stopping to walk" that reduced my risk 10 points to a mere 77 out of 80 - where 80 means you're as good as dead.
I'll keep the running thing in mind the next time I'm being chased by a scary person with a butcher knife down a subway platform, which on average, is probably close to 300M (~1000ft).
[I'm 26 - but according to this survey "It would be a good idea [for me] to make out a will" Actually when I included that I could "run over three hundred meters (300 M) without stopping to walk" that reduced my risk 10 points to a mere 77 out of 80 - where 80 means you're as good as dead.]
You can knock another ten points off your score if you regularly go walking with a dog or with a child under age eight. Now, the dog, that might indeed reduce one's risk - but of course that depends on the dog. Going for a stroll with your St. Bernard probably does help keep you safe. But somehow I don't think that a Chihuahua or a Yorkie will deter many criminals. And what about the child under age eight? Are we to assume that criminals are too tender-hearted to attack a parent of a small child? I'd think that you'd be better off if your child is at least 13 or 14, presumably old and large enough to help you fight off an attacker.
All in all, that risk test was so dopey that I just can't get too worked up about its anti-transit attitude. Its creators are not merely ignorant about transit - they're ignorant, period.
I want to know how is happened at Morris Park Ave after wreck the subway car # 7602?
An you know that the Elevated line is going to be 100 years old by 2004. Are the MTA going to replace the Elevated beams? Or the Elevated beams is strong enought to hold for next 50 years?
A article in the Friday February 5 New York Post page 18, the N and R service will be unterrupted on the following weekends, Feb 6th-8th, 13th-16, 20th-22nd and Feb 27-March 1, there will be no N service between 57th Street and Queensboro Plaza and no R service at all.
Times affected are from 12:01 am Saturday to 5AM Monday, and until 5AM Tuesday on Feb 16th, since Monday Feb 15th is President's Day.
Also, 5th Ave and Lexington Ave stations will be closed.
N customers can transfer to the #7 train between Queensboro Plaza and Manhattan.
R customers can use the E and F trains between Queens and Manhattan.
Use the N train between Manhattan and Brooklyn.
Shuttle buses will operate in Brooklyn between 59th Street and Bay Ridge/95th Street Stations.
I know this is long, but here we go again on disruptions of train service.
Charlie Muller of Bedfor Park Blvd.
Where can you buy a 24 hour pass at O'hare? Last time I was in I could not find anywhere in airport.
How much do those passes cost. Also is CTA still a Two man
operation. Because i heard that they have One Person Train Operation.
Is That True?
CTA rapid transit is operated on an OPTO basis. However, during rush hours (6-9:30 am and 3:30 to 7 pm), there are conductors on the Red and Blue Line trains as they pass through the downtown subways. In other words, they get on the trains on the first stop in the tunnel and get off right before it leaves the tunnel on the other side of downtown.
There are machines selling Visitor Passes (1, 3, and 5-day passes) right in front of the O'Hare subway station. The Visitor Pass machines are next to the larger Transit Card machines.
Would someone explain to me why the entire Manhattan-bound 7 service must be disrupted for over 30 minutes by a 'queasy' passenger (train emptied, cops, paramedics, the works), but when someone is robbed and assaulted, the motorman cannot be bothered to blow the horn or contact the police? (The token clerks are similarly apathetic.) This exact scenario happened to me in July, 1992 on the 5. Despite much visible bloodshed, I was able to get to the conductor (Good thing this was a Redbird; you can't go from car to car on most newer rolling stock!) to report what had happened and ask for assistance. His response was "Gotta keep the trains moving, buddy; can't hold things up for one passenger." When we arrived at Union Square, he simply opened the doors, letting the eight teenage thugs escape to commit more mayhem. I found a platform attendant whose suggestion was that I should chase them; and not to make a scene, the Democratic convention is in town and visitors don't want to see crime like this on the subway- it makes New York look bad. (Sorry I couldn't get robbed and beaten at a more P.C. time!!) There was no cop in the entire Union Square complex, and at that time maps didn't show where the precincts were. No matter; I was more concerned with stemming my bleeding.
Since then, every time service is disrupted because of a 'sick passenger', I am reminded of this.
Some time ago we touched on this topic. The whole thing about moving a sick passenger is a liability issue. The scenario I gave was: One morning I was on a southbound D train that was making the 125th St-59th/Columbus Circle express run when a passenger appeared to be having an epileptic attack. When the train arrived at 59th St. they discharged all passengers and the transit police responded and called for EMS. They of course waited with the passenger until EMS arrived. EMS arrived and after about 20 minutes the sick passenger was taken off the train. The point I was making was that in our society where people love to launch lawsuits I understand why the train crews and police would wait for EMS, rather than simply taking the passenger off the train. If they did the person could claim further injuries due to the non-medical personnel moving him/her from the train. And of course the TA would be named in the lawsuit.
Wayne
I've brought this up in the past myself. Why are we discharging an entire train rather than just closing off the car?
Wow. Did you take this up with MTA management? What did they say? Sounds like the train should have been held up and you should have been treated at the scene.
--Mark
In response to Mark's query: yes, I wrote letters to the TA, Mayor Dinkins, my councilman, you name it. Never got so much as a form letter back. Guess a guy's gotta get killed to be noticed.
That Conductor could have been in a lot of trouble for not reporting
the problem to the Control Center. What the Train Crew is suppose to
do is if your injured and The Perpatrater is still on the train the
train is suppose to wait outside the station and wait for police.
Howhever if you been robbed you have to go to the Station Agent.
What you should have done was get that Conductors Name and Pass
Number. (If Possible a car Number)
Hery, what is it about subways that they attract sick passengers? Everytime the train gets stuck, it's because of a sick passenger.
I notice most of the sick PASSENGERS are HOMELESS. Maybe that
explains it?
I think that not every train that gets stuck is really a "sick Passenger". In the summer when travelling to Wall Street, the A train from Hoyt Street into Manhattan got held up three times and I was caught in the trains behind it, in the tunnel. Maybe there were sick passengers as what they told us throughout the trian but I think they use that term as a code name as to why the train ahead is having passengers. To me the MTA probably uses sick passenger as problems as rowdy passengers, fights, or other disruptions and say sick passengers as to not alarm others on the same train or the passengers in the trains behind the troubled train. What do you all think?
You are not far from the truth there are times a Conductor might
say Sick Passenger when the train radio sez something diffrent.
Half my Conductors say anything but the real problem to aviod
panic but there are a lot of real sick passandgers.
If you think about how many people ride daily and how little common sesne many people have it should not be a surprise that many people go out onto the system when they should stay home. Some may be using the subway to get to the doc or hospital (There are times when you should take a cab) and sometimes things happen.
It may sound better to blame delays on a sick passenger than mechanical problems or hooliganisn and it may be good PR. Remember there are some things that you may not really want to know about. (Jumpers etc.)
I have never been on a train where 'sick passenger' was used as a code for something other than what it is. (By the way, I do have a radio set to Control Center frequencies so I DO know the real story too). If rowdy customers are involved, there is noting wrong with telling people that there is 'Police Activity' ahead. If it's mechanical problems or signal trouble, what is the problem with honesty. I think that if mis-imformation is given, it is done by some very cynical conductors who under-estimate the general public.
I have been on LIRR trains with sick customers, where the policy is a bit different. There, the LIRR puts the sick customer off the train (assuming that they are ambulatory) with an Assistant Conductor, to wait for medical assistance at a station. The TA has been experimenting with this way of handling 'Sick Customers' by installing 'comfort chairs' at strategically located stations as well as deploying RNs at key stations during peak hours.
[I have been on LIRR trains with sick customers, where the policy is a bit different. There, the LIRR puts the sick customer off the train (assuming that they are ambulatory) with an Assistant Conductor, to wait for medical assistance at a station. The TA has been experimenting with this way of handling 'Sick Customers' by installing 'comfort chairs' at strategically located stations as well as deploying RNs at key stations during peak hours.]
There's something about the TA's policy that doesn't seem right. Okay, if a person is incapacitated aboard a train, there's really no alternative other than to wait for EMS. But what about the situation where the sick passenger can get off the train, but then the train has to be taken out of service so the conductor can wait with the passenger for EMS? It would seem a lot more sensible for the clerk (alerted by the conductor) to close the booth and wait with the passenger, allowing the train to on its merry way. As far as I know, conductors don't have any medical training that the RR clerks don't, and the inconvenience of a closed booth is minor compared to that of an out-of-service train.
You make a very good point about using the Station Agent to wait with a ambulatory customer requring medical attention.
With the blessing of Command Center I walked a sick customer to the station agent. Alerted the Agent to the situation, recorded the Agents badge number and we were on our way in less than five min. This was on a weekend and it was my idea. Command Center said "if you can do it safely Conductor, go ahead".
My Train Operator told me that I was going to get in trouble some day. I asked him why, and he stated, The TA does not pay you to think they pay you to do what you are told to do. He said you never suggest any thing, thats there job, let them take the rap when somthing goes wrong.
I don't think what he said is true, but if it were, I could not work for the TA.
Well that is true in someway or another. But sometime you have to think it can be a diffrents between life or Death. I'm a train 0perator on the NO. 1 LINE AND SOMETIMES YOU have to take stuff into
your own hand within reason. You can get in trouble for anything in TA
JUST MAKE SURE YOUR RIGHT. Heres an Example of that. I had Hot Grids
and ofcouse the smoke was getting heavy and smokeing up the platform. This was a Astor PZ on the
No. 6 line. I tryed to call control. No Answer. So I cut the motors
in the car with the smoke. By the time I finaly got Control on the radio my train was discharged and i was ready to leave. I probaly
would have needed EMS if i didn't respond fast.
Great idea to cut out the motors. Unfortunately, #6 uses all westinghouse equipment. Cutting out the motors usually will not resolve hot grids on that type of equipment. Usually, the controller is hung up in dynamic braking so the simply moving the car will cause the grids to continue to burn. The only way to eliminate the problem is to drop the 'quick disconnects'. Also, shutting off the air to the groups will sometimes help. Sometimes, we only think we're doing the right thing...
Well that is true in someway or another. But sometime you have to think it can be a diffrents between life or Death. I'm a train 0perator on the NO. 1 LINE AND SOMETIMES YOU have to take stuff into
your own hand within reason. You can get in trouble for anything in TA
JUST MAKE SURE YOUR RIGHT. Heres an Example of that. I had Hot Grids
and ofcouse the smoke was getting heavy and smokeing up the platform. This was a Astor PZ on the
No. 6 line. I tryed to call control. No Answer. So I cut the motors
in the car with the smoke. By the time I finaly got Control on the radio my train was discharged and i was ready to leave. I probaly
would have needed EMS if i didn't respond fast.
Control Center will always ask the crew if the customer can be safely removed from the train. Nice gesture to get the railroad moving again eventhough that train has to go out of service due to no conductor aboard. But what happens if that customer collapses between the time he leaves the train and the time he gets to the nearest bench on the platform or booth? Now the conductor is jammed, worst case senario if that person should die, now NYCT has a lawsuit by the family claiming if that person got carried off the train by TRAINED & QUALIFIED medical personell, that person may be alive today. And do you think for one minute a jury is going to be sympathetic to the TA? NOT! Remember: cover your ass, don't be the hero. You are trained in train operation, not in medical matters. You are not qualified to make medical judgements just for the good of the service.
I agree with you 100%
It probably is true for the TA, and a lot of other places as well.
[To me the MTA probably uses sick passenger as problems as rowdy passengers, fights, or other disruptions and say sick passengers as to not alarm others on the same train or the passengers in the trains behind the troubled train.]
"Sick passenger" might indeed be used on the problem train itself, for the reasons you note. But passengers on following trains probably would hear "police activity."
That Conductor could have been in a lot of trouble for not reporting
the problem to the Control Center. What the Train Crew is suppose to
do is if your injured and The Perpatrater is still on the train the
train is suppose to wait outside the station and wait for police.
Howhever if you been robbed you have to go to the Station Agent.
What you should have done was get that Conductors Name and Pass
Number. (If Possible a car Number)
What are they Doing on the N and the R that is requiering so much diversions and delays and shuttle buses? Is it normal for a whole line or two to be effected like this??
Fred Wilson wonders what they're doing with the N and R. Since those two routes are about all that is still BMT in the southern part of Brooklyn, the TA is probably paving over the tracks to run a permanent bus service and finally kill off the main line of the BMT.
8-) Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Very heavy maintenance work, called Capital Construction. When many sections of track are worn out, the entire section is usually replaced. As you can imagine it's quite a job.
so there will be no visible difference once the work is done?
No, other than new track. Queensboro Plaza is getting new rails, (although thats not a capital project - sorry for the mistake, I was thinking of the Franklin Ave. Shuttle).
I believe they are replaceing the interlocking for the Queens Blvd Cutoff. They're also replaceing the 59st interlocking in Brooklyn.
-Hank
Gee, all this talk about redbirds......I'm licking my chops here. I think the best thing for me to do is actually bid for two of these subway cars at the next MTA auction. I'm sure a scrapper would allow a little guy to pick himself one or two cars (not that big of a loss for the scrapper).
Uh....just thought of a possible problem. What is the gauge of these trains? For some reason, I was under the impression that BMT and IND trains were wider than IRT cars. Arggggg- if this is true, then the only way I could move these cars will be on piggyback (via- freight railroads) versus hauling by engine on normal gauge track.
I'm getting a bit discouraged here......hmmmm
Cheers,
MIKE
The rail gauge is the same but the width of the floor at platform level is narrower on the IRT than the IND/BMT.
To get the cars off TA property you will most certainly have to truck them regardless of the rail guage.
-Dave
You mean the truck assembly would have to be separated from each subway car for transport via truck. Gee, what an awful mess trying to reassemble these subway cars. Hmmmmm. I seem to remember seeing two PATH subway cars being transported by freight truck some years ago in New Jersey. I imagine the cars were disassembled.
[You mean the truck assembly would have to be separated from each subway car for transport via truck. Gee, what an awful mess trying to reassemble these subway cars.]
I suppose it would depend on the vertical clearances between the subway yard and your destination. A subway car's got to be at least 10 feet high with the truck assemblies on, and a low-profile trailer (like those used to carry construction equipment) probably adds another two feet or so.
Of course, an undertaking like this would be mighty expensive ...
Not if you could somehow get someone to "donate" the transportation. granted, that's a longshot, but sometimes companies donate the trasnportation of stuff like this for a token fee, or at least a reduced rate. Granted, a Redbird isn't exactly historical, nor do they draw that kind of attention....
I'd like to bring one back to England. There is a subway car already here. Perhaps David Pirmann, our web site host, can tell me how it got here ? I have still to pay it a visit.
What subway car do you have in England?
I'm not sure about redbirds, but when I was up at the Trolley Museum in Kingston, one of the people there said that to bring the R-16 they had up there to the museum, it cost $600 to buy, and $5000 to move it. Personally, I've had dreams of putting a subway car in my backyard, maybe making a little rec room of it.
The transportation costs sound about right for that move. The semi trucks are large and there are only a few companies that do the work.
It is a nice thought for a rec room but your neighbors may not share your enthusiam.
I have heard some nice stories where streecar museums have reclaimed chicken coops, cottages and additions to houses and rebuilt them as streetcars again.
The East Troy Museum in Wiscosnin has an X Mpls/Duluth (owned and operated by the same company. Some equipment ran in both cities) car that had been used for storage for a long time. They have it rebuilt and running but would still like to find a set of trucks that ir should be running on. (I think it's on a set of TMER&L trucks. I do not know what it is supposed to be running on)
I would love to have 4 cars of R 26 NO. 7777,7778,7821,7822 AND
2 CARS of R 29 No. 8611,8612 and 2 CARS OF R 33 No 8899,9000 and
2 cars of R 36 9522,9521. Unfortinatly this is dream land.
The only thing that comes close is the R 26/28/29 train kit
sitting in my basement untouched because I don't have
patants to put it together.
Volunteer at a transit museum. The cars may not be yours personaly but they are ours colletivly and the museums let you get to know the equipment "Up close and personal". The efforts of volunteers at museums preserve the rich transportation history that we have.
It is rewarding. Many of the people that post here are involved.
ps. Find time to put the model together. If it's too picky find someone to help. (ask a kid to do it for you)
HAY Joe! Thats a good idea. The next time I go to the Museum i'll ask
about that. I love all of the old trains and i would like to meet alot
of the peaple who put this web site together. Well i started Volunteering to give picture to this web site. Thanks Joe
I'm working on volunteering. I'm in the process of trying to become a tour guide at the Transit Museum.
[Personally, I've had dreams of putting a subway car in my backyard, maybe making a little rec room of it.]
There was a story in the Times a couple of months ago concerning a man in Oregon who went one step further - he had bought an old Boeing 727 airliner and was having it brought to his property and converted into a residence. According to the article, as well as the man's own site (danged if I can remember the URL ...), the moving job was a truly Herculean effort. The plane had been flown into the nearest airport, which was about 12 miles from the man's property, and at last word was being prepared for the move. Its wings and tail assembly had to be removed. That wasn't so bad with the wings, which were designed to be removed and reinstalled without too much fuss, but the tail assembly had to be cut off and welded back on. Moving the fuselage would require special equipment and the relocation of overhead wires along the way. From what I recall, the total cost of the preparation and move was going to be well into six figures.
This morning's paper (I assume nationally) had a photograph of the plane being moved. Article says he still has to get it up a steep slope. Maybe he should reattach the wings and fly it up there.
Check out the Museum Roster
-- R6 1144 is at the Buckinghamshire Railway Center in England.
I understand it is an R4 and is at the Buckingham Railway museum (formally Quainton Road0 It is used as a cafe' and I believe it is truckless. I have no idea how it was shipped over, for what reason and by whom. I look to our host for helpon this one. Apart from several others and myself I doubt whether there are many subway enthusiasts who would put their hands in their pockets to arrange shipping.
PATH's PA-4 cars were delivered in almost "ready to run" condition, complete with trucks. Only the contact shoes and shoe beams were left off.
The cost for transporting them from Yonkers to Jersey City by truck was about $4000.00/car including special permits,police escorts,and tolls.
A Redbird body (without trucks) will make a legal load trailer, if fitted with a fifth wheel plate at one end and a dolly under the other end. This is how Seashore makes a lot of their moves. Such an effort involves lots of jacking and blocking, but can usually be done without hiring a crane (BIG BUCKS). The trucks can be moved on a regular flatbed. No matter how you look at it though, YOU are going to have to convince the MTA that you can get the job done and on time, before they will even consider selling you a car!
Exactly. Also,the figure I mentioned for the PATH cars dates back to 1986,and was for a long term contract involving numerous car moves. I imagine that a one time move would cost considerably more.
Some time ago,"Trains" magazine ran an article about the trials and tribulations of a fellow who bought a scrap caboose to place on his property. I don't recall the dollar figures,but what started out as a simple purchase turned out to be a VERY expensive proposition. This is not an exercise for the faint of heart.
As Erik suggests,volunteering at a museum would be great alternative.
There are several within a day's drive of NYC,and all have NYCTA cars in their collections.Branford's R-17 wears the redbird color scheme;it looks and runs great.Erik's group has their R-16,and Seashore has an extensive rapid transit collection. All are actively seeking volunteers to restore,maintain,and operate cars. Something for Mike to think about.
Fritz -- I have a similar story to tell. A friend of mine who works for transit in the PR department had told me of an incident some years ago where they were auctioning off subway cars.
A woman who lived out mid-west somewhere wanted a subway car to turn it into a diner. She had bid on an R-27 series car and won. The price for the car was reseasonable (don't recall the exact figure) but when it came time to claim the car, the woman never showed up.
What happanned to her you may ask -- simply, it never occurred to her that she would have to pay for the whooping transportation costs to move the subway car flatbeded to it's final destination! And that ain't cheap!
BTW, believe it or not, but my friend has said that this scenario happens quite frequently at these subway car auctions.
So, let the buyer beware as the old saying goes.
Doug
Couldn't they be hauled by locomotive from either the 39th or Linden yards to the LIRR, and then over the Hell Gate Bridge to wherever?
There are several problems with a rail haul.
One is cost freight and insurance.
Another is replacing the couplers with knuckle couplers, making sure they are at the correct height, modifying the brake system to work on train air (SMEE can be so modified).
Once you have got the thing coupled up, you usually have to send an escort, ready to deal with any eventuality (like a broken drawbar) and prepared to spend days in a remote yard while awaiting a connection.
And the deal worked out with the freight agent comes apart when the engineer or conductor of a connecting line refuses to accept the car!
There is a section of the MTA website that tells you of surplus materials(including subway cars) that the MTA is selling.There will be an update on Monday 2/15 so watch for it.
The address is www.mta.nyc.ny.us
Mike,
First of all, where are you located? I don't think I would "lick my chops" for a Redbird. The Redbirds aren't red, they are more like a tuscan color red and not fire engine red. They have black roofs. At one time on the Flushing Line there were R33's and R36's that where white as a ghost. They were called the White Train to discourage graffiti artists. It did not work. Now they are coined redbirds and they don't fly to Florida for the Winter. These are are MK rebuilts and are 9 feet wide and 51 feet wide over coupler heads. They run on standard gauge track (4 feet, 8-1/2 inches) as the Track Phantom must know. You need 600-650 VDC to operate these cars off a third rail and a breaker the size of about 2000 amps. I believe they weight around 60,000 lbs empty at AW0.
They have modular air conditioning using the stanchion bars to deliver cold air to the ceiling.
I think you should go for it!!!!
A few things....first, to Mike Gallant....you have some piece of
track that is connected to the national rail network on which you
want to put a "redbird", or is all this a lot of tom-foolery? I
think it would be a hassle to transport a subway car on the high
rail...all sorts of railroad regs to deal with, plus convincing
the TA to do the transfer. I think the last cars to get delivered
to the NYCTS that way were the R32s.
To Track Phantom and other redbird fans: You can run the cars
on as low as 400 V. Below that the PTR would probably drop out.
To adequately run a single car, budget for about 700 Amps. For
Married Pair, increase your estimate accordingly. Each cars weighs
in at about 38 tons, empty. The R33 singles might be a little
lighter because they have no AC.
About the HVAC on the redbirds: cold air is NOT delivered through
the stanchion pipes. The pipes are used, however, to conceal and
protect smaller freon piping. The compressor/condenser unit is
under the car. The evaporator/blower is the bump in the ceiling.
Both lines in the stanchion are on the low side of the system.
One has the cold liquid freon from the low side of the condenser
coil, the other has the cold gas going to the suction side of the
compressor. That's why the stanchion poles feel cold.
Can R-44/46 'B' units be moved independantly of 'A' units (i.e., in yards, etc.)under their own power? If so, how are they controlled?
Michael B.
B cars (R-44 or R-46 could never be moved independent of an 'A' car. The 'B' car has no Air Compressor or Converter/Battery so must rely on the 'A' car for 'life support'and, therefore, could not be moved independently of an 'A' car. Linking of A-B units prior to overhaul made the question moot, however. Prior to overhaul. A-B units were constantly moved from either end. On the R-44, operating from the #1 end of the 'B' car was a chore accomplished with 2 motorman with radios. The one in the 'B' car would flag the one at the controls in the 'A' car. On the R-46, this was made easier by the incorporation of a push-button controller called the Hostler. The motorman would hold the "Dead-Man's button" with one finger while applying one or two points of power or 1 of 3 rates of braking with another finger. Of course, this took a fair amount of practice, especially when cutting and adding at the 'B' end of the unit. The 'A' car, which (before linking)could move independently of the B car, had a Hostler on both ends of the car. Except in emergencies, trains were never operated with passengers aboard via the Hostler. The R-44 was never equipped with a hostler, however.
What was that electronic gadget on the R44 that was mounted where the sign controller now sits?
-Hank
I don't recall any such gadget on the R-44 but on the R-46, that device with the Red, Yellow and Blue buttons was the Hostler.
Well, before they were overhauled, the SIR R44s had a device, with quite a few buttons, that sounds just like what you're talking about. A large, red, vertical button labeled 'STOP' is the only thing I can remember clearly about it.
-Hank
The SIRR were a cross between the R-44 and R-46. It is possible that they did have a hostler but the NYCTA R-44s didn't. (Off the topic - the SIRR R-44s are referred to as R-43 on the NYCT Computer system)
are there any other unofficial R types out there?(Where the car is on R-type and called by another sucha s the SIR R43)
Two come to mind very quickly. The R-1, R-4, R-6 and R-7s were lumped into the generic R-9 catagory. The other one is the R-11. After overhaul they were re-classified as R-34s but they always retained the R-11 label.
Don't the R110A/B have other designations too?
I heard somewhere, that the 110's are actually R-131's, and that 110 was the number of the original proposal or design or something, that came to identify the actual cars themselves.
Earlier today, I was thinking that an interesting Nostalgia Train ride might be the original IRT route, starting at 145th st on the west side, and then letting us off at City Hall to look around, then picking us up and returning us to where we began. Alas, I think that would be impossible. I checked a track map, and it looks like there is no easy way to do that. Any opinions?
[Earlier today, I was thinking that an interesting Nostalgia Train ride might be the original IRT route, starting at 145th st on
the west side, and then letting us off at City Hall to look around, then picking us up and returning us to where we began. Alas, I think that would be impossible. I checked a track map, and it looks like there is no easy way to do that. Any opinions?]
It indeed would be impossible due to the reconfiguration of the 42nd Street routing. Remember that what is now the 42nd Street Shuttle follows the original IRT route. Of the three tracks on the Shuttle, one connects to the 7th Avenue IRT and two connect to the Lexington IRT - in other words, there is no track that connects the two IRT lines.
Hmm, *think* *think* *think*, isn't the middle track at 42nd street
still connected to the 7th avenue line? Isn't there a bumper or
something that could be removed and the bridge opened up to allow
a train (sigh, one day maybe a Lo-V again) through?
There is a removeable bridge along the connection between the northernmost Shuttle track (#4) and the West Side IRT. That's probably what you're thinking of. Unfortunately, Track 4 doesn't connect to the other two, and those tracks in turn connect only to the Lexington IRT. So a through routing from Lexington to West Side is impossible.
Why the heck isn't there a connection? What would happen if they ever needed to reroute trains in an emergency? In fact, according to the pages here, "Track 4 connects to the northbound main line local track underneath a metal walkway that is removed only during midnight hours if needed for train swaps." I assume they mean swapping shuttle trains, but from a logistics point of view, why keep connections to two lines when they could put in a switch and get them all from one? If it is for redudancy, the switch would still make sense.
Personally, just to do what I suggest, such a tour, I'd go down there and put in a switch myself, assuming I knew how.
But can anyone think of a good IRT Nostalgia Train trip? I haven't been a member of the museum for that long, but I was told they always use that D-type Triplex, which wouldn't work for an IRT trip, and that they've never done an IRT trip. For that matter, anyone know if they have another Nostalgia Train trip planned for sometime, I assume, after April?
This is uncertain. The Nostalgia Special may not take place. I spoke to the Curator of the Museum who was dissatisfied with the way the specials were being operated (he didn't really elaborate on his dissatisfaction). He proposed a train of R1/9s, but not even this is definite. As for the D - Types, I've been told that they need body work. So unless this work is done, the D - Types won't be in action for much of this year. The 2 units in Coney Island (6019ABC, 6112ABC) need it the most because the salt is eating away at their sides. The unit (6095ABC) at the Museum isn't sufficient to operate a Nostalgia Special. The only other possibility to operate a special would be to use the Railway Preservation Corporation's Lo-Vs, which runs an IRT special once a year. I assume there will be another on in September. Lo-Vs were used for the Nostalgia Special in July 1996 to Rockaway Pk. A wooden plank was put down by the TA employees to cover the gap between the car and the IND platform so people could safely walk out.
There are numerous other Museum Cars, but they haven't received proper servicing.
-Constantine
No Nostalgia Trains? That is one of the most disappointing things I can think of. I was on only one of them, the one in October, and I was looking roeard to another. It is the most tangible of the things the Transit Museum does outside the Museum itself. If better advertising was availible, then it would definitely, in addition to the crowd it currently attracts, bring in a lot of young children and their parents. Which would make it a real moneymaker, which someone at the MTA should appreciate.
There always was a connection between the tracks of the shuttle. It wan't until the last few years when they removed it, and one of the tracks with it. I'm not sure why though.
Tracks 1.2 and 3 have been connected since the line became a shuttle in 1918. Track 2 was accesible from the Grand Central end until 1975 when the connection was broken,but tracks 1 and 3 are still connected by I believe a hand thrown switch. Track 4 has always been separate from the three other tracks and joins the Bway-7 Av Line at Times Sq. As to why this might be I would venture the following: there was a plan put about during the Dual Contracts to us only the two south tracks (1 and 2) for the shuttle and the two north tracks (3 and 4) for the westward extension of the Flushing Line to Times Square. The trackways and a single island platform were actually constructed as an eastward extension of tracks 1 and 2 although for many years the trackways were boarded over with wooden planking. You actually walk through this area today when you transfer from the shuttle to the Lexington. Remember that when the shuttle first began operation the connection was via the upper level passageway which was then inside the fare control zone but is now outside of it but still in use. The plan to have the Flushing Line use tracks 3 and 4 died as soon as someone realized that nothing short of a cog railway or a mountain goat could make the climb from the Flushing platforms up to the shuttle tracks. If the plan had been put into effect it would have been necessary to have track connections between 1 and 2, the connection from 2 to 3 would have only been used for service moves and the frugal IRT would not build extra switches.
Regards,Redbird
Re: The Original IRT route, posted by David Shanske
[quote]
There always was a connection between the tracks of the shuttle. It wan't until the last few years when they removed it, and
one of the tracks with it. I'm not sure why though.
[unquote]
Shuttle tracks one and three connect by a hand-throw switch just west of Grand Central. Track one continues east of Times Square, curves right 90 degrees and meets up with the Lexington Ave. local track from a point in between the local and express tracks, between 33rd Street and 42nd Street.
Track 4 of the shuttle is connected west of Times Square to the uptown local (#1 train route) track.
Track two no longer exists, although there is some rail still left in place within the trackway. It was once the downtown express track before the Dual Contracts expansion.
All cars operating on the shuttle are based at the Pelham maintenance shop in the Bronx.
Cheers,
Peter Dougherty
Publisher
Tracks of the New York City Subway book
Umm...Mr. Dougherty. I didn't say that. Eric B did. I did receive my information about it from your very informative book though, after I wondered if such a trip was possible, and then double-checked it here at nycsubway.org.
While the connection at Times Square to the uptown IRT Westside exists a removable bridge covers the connection. To use the track the bridge is removed and it is done midnight hours when they change out the cars on the shuttle.(The bridge gives access to Track 4. If you walk this bridge you actually see the uptown 1/2/3 to your left as you walk towards track 4.
Therefore-under normal situations it would take three trains to do the Day One Route. Start with the 6 at brooklyn Bridge, ride around the loop(if permitted), get off at Grand Central, take the SHuttle to Times Square and then change to the uptown 1.
Advertisement: Folks-if you dont have Peter's excellent book run to your Post Office today for only $30-international money order(orange in color)he will send you your own copy of this terrific book. If you have ever wondered about some layouts, this book will answer all your questions--even the extra tracks at Fourh Avenue F Brooklyn and why you only have two tracks at Fort Hamilton Pkwy on the F among others.
(I am not getting paid for this commercial)
If you stand at the end of the platform by that bridge, the uptown 1 passes literally a few feet away from you. You can plainly see where the original ROW went.
I picked up my copy of Peter's track book at the Transit Museum last October, BTW.
In the Times Square-Grand Central Shuttle area, track 2 has no connection to the other tracks. No cars can get in or out. Track 1 only has access to the Lexington Avenue Downtown local track and track 3 and 4 only access to the 7th Avenue Uptown local. With this in mind, an excursion trip on the original IRT route cannot be accomplished. This information is taken from the signal control line drawings.
[In the Times Square-Grand Central Shuttle area, track 2 has no connection to the other tracks. No cars can get in or out.
Track 1 only has access to the Lexington Avenue Downtown local track and track 3 and 4 only access to the 7th Avenue Uptown local. With this in mind, an excursion trip on the original IRT route cannot be accomplished. This information is taken from the signal control line drawings.]
Track 2 is the missing Shuttle track. Tracks 1 and 3 connect to the Lexington line and Track 4 connects to the Seventh Avenue line. What matters is that a through routing is not possible.
One way to do a worthwhile fan trip would be to use regular service from 145th to Times Sq. and the shuttle to Grand Central. Then have the Lo-Vs on a charter from GCT to Brooklyn (covering the Contract 2 extension), back to E 180th St. (covering part of the Bronx Extension), and then to City Hall (with arrangements for a regular service train to pick up passengers there and return you to the real transit world :)
Can anyone tell me how they got their name, I know they are painted red, but how come everyone calls them "redbirds" wrer they called redbirds before the advent of "Subtalk". When did they recieve the red paint job - was it to deter the graffiti artists ?
They are painted a tuscan red and not a a fire engine red. The roofs are black. They were repainted this color in the mid to late 1980's as part of a rebuilt program. Prior to this, these cars had plenty of graffiti. The paint is graffiti resistant and had to be done anyway. The original paint was blasted off with vinyl pellets.
The rail fans call them red birds because of their colors. Maybe it is believed they will fly when you see a 11 car train of these cars on an elevated structure!!!
As a footnote, certain cars on the IRT Division were delivered as true fire engine red in the late 1950's and 1960's. Those are real redbirds.
Simon: The first cars to be called Redbirds were the R-29's.When the first cars were delivered on March 28,1962 they arrived by car barge and sailed up the East River welcomed by fireboats. They were painted a brilliant Tartar Red with a yellow trim on the grabirons.This was in sharp contrast to previous orders which had been painted olive drab. The Red scheme was repeated for the next two orders for those cars assigned to the IRT Mainlines #1-6 and 9, R-33 and R-36. The R-33 and R-36 assigned to the #7 Flushing Line had picture windows and a blue and white paint scheme and were called Bluebirds. When the R-29's,33's,36's as well as the R-26's and R-28's were rebuilt under the General Overhaul Program they were painted in a somewhat darker red paint scheme with a silver roof and black tops at the car ends. After rebuilding they were referred to as "Silver Foxes" but the name never caught on and the Redbird name quickly came back into use.
Regards,Redbird
The story goes that the red shade used on the Redbirds was used in Philadelphia on the Broad St. line. Supposedly, someone remembered that the R-29s, R-33s, and mainline R-36s were originally painted red, but couldn't recall the exact shade.
Early today i was in the Bronx River Parkway and it was a heavy traffic because there was six cars accident. I was looking at Unionport Yard and i saw a work car R33 #8885 sitting on the track Without #8884. I wonder what happened to R33 #8884? Look like R33 #8884 scrapped or repair?
Check out the Scrap/Wreck List
#8884 was lost July 15, 1997 in a split-switch accident on the #2 line near President Street station. He was the last car in the train when the switch closed while he passed over it, causing his rear truck to go onto the other track. He hit the wall and his frame got bent so they scrapped him right then and there. His mate #8885 is now a "Gel Applicator Car" (sounds like a beautician!)
Wayne
Wayne: I always find it useful to print your responses as there a goldmine of info on the current car fleet.
Regards,Redbird
Can anyone tell me why, on CTA maps, is there no special notation for the local stations normally served by Brown Line trains south of Belmont? There is no service to these stations on Sundays, yet the maps depict them as though there is constant service.
I suppose they are trying to keep the graphic clean. Of course, having worked there, they assume the riders already know the answer.
The line information tells what days they run and the stations that are ravenswood only are not open on sunday, and the red line dosent stop there. Same thing with the Skokie swift, does not run Sat or Sunday except for Taste of Chicago weekends.
I believe your response. Who looks at the maps in the cars anyway? Tourists. And are any tourists going to try and get off there on a week-end? No.
The same question has to be asked, why is the Douglas Branch of the Blue line the same color as the rest of the line? It only runs on Weekdays, no weekend or overnight service. The rest of the line runs 24-7.
They think that, the L station will still be there when it isn't in service, so put it on the map the same color as the rest of the line! If you want to know when it is open you have three options, 1 read the rest of the information on the map, call the RTA 836-700, or 3 call the CTA toll-free question or comment # 188-Your-CTA.
I think it makes it easier to read personally. Just read the description of the color coded line you are going to ride and if it says the line runs 24-7 your fine. If it says it doesn't then locate the stations that are closed on the map. It usually lists an alternative for when the train isn't running. Like the #97 bus for the Skokie Swift on week-ends.
BJ
But the entire Blue Line is one color because it is one line: both Cermak and Forest Park trains run through the Dearborn Street subway and then the entire length of the O'Hare branch. If the Forest Park and Cermak branches were in two different colors, then the O'Hare branch would have to be marked in both colors. And it seems to me that we've used up all the easily-distinguished colors as it is.
Wouldn't it be easier to adopt the suggestion of the original message: mark EVERY station that has no service for some period (nights or weekends) with the appropriate symbol on the map. Therefore, Dempster on the Yellow and all the Cermak Branch stations on the Blue would be marked with the existing "no nights/weekends" symbol, the Orange, Purple, and Green stations would be marked with a "no nights" symbol, and the Brown Line stops would use the existing "no nights or Sundays" marking.
My favorite signal is the Union Switch & Signal R2 signals seen at locations on the Flushing Line and Willets Point Blvd station (Shea Stadium). These signals have long hoods and a round top.
What is your favorite signal, train stop and switch machine?
My favorite signal is D6 1615. Wanna guess why?
[this may be a duplicate posting; I have had some trouble when I tried to send it. If you've seen it before, my apologies]
Posted by Steve on Fri Feb 5 18:55:23 1999,
[quote]
My favorite signal is D6 1615. Wanna guess why?
[unquote]
Yikes! Now *that's* trivia the way I like it. I can't even hazard any real guess. Let's see...it's on a tight left-hand curve (without a repeater, by the looks of it), heading into Jamaica Yard and controlled by the yard tower. Is it not in synch with indications from Continental Tower, maybe? Something that can trip a train unexpectedly?
Or do you know someone who got the old signal head off of D5-1615 when they modernized them, maybe?
I gotta know .
Cheers,
Peter Dougherty
Publisher
Tracks of the New York City Subway book
Congrats Peter. You almost hit it on the head. Whenever I have a B/O train that has to be moved off the main line via other than head car operation, that's the point that I know we are in the clear. Thankfully, it doesn't happen all that often any more...
Posted by Steve on Sun Feb 7 00:01:57 1999
[quote]
Congrats Peter. You almost hit it on the head. Whenever I have a B/O train that has to be moved off the main line via other
than head car operation, that's the point that I know we are in the clear. Thankfully, it doesn't happen all that often any more...
[unquote]
Thanks for the reply. When I first saw your post with the D6 track number, I was guessing that this signal was sitting outside your office, but a closer look at the GSA books had me scratching my head.
By what you said in your reply, I assume you mean that when the lead car of a B/O train hits D6-1615 then the train's clear of the main line? Am I correct in that assertion?
Cheers,
Peter Dougherty
Publisher
Tracks of the New York City Subway book
Someone else thought it was a signal right outside my office too. Actually, it also means that not only are we clear of the mainline but we are also clear of the R/G relay tracks.
My favorite signals are green ones.
Ditto here, especially green over green interlocking aspects. One which especially stands out is the one just before the scissor switches approaching 75th Ave. Jamaica-bound on the Queens line. The ultimate delight is seeing a green over green aspect and knowing that the express train I'm on will not be stopping at 75th Ave. I remember once, on an F train back when the F still ran express beyond Continental Ave., I was peeking through the full width R-46 cab and announced to my traveling companions, "Hey, guys, we're not stopping at 75th," when the green over green came into view. We got off at Union Turnpike and backtracked to my sister's apartment; she was living in Forest Hills at the time.
I prefer a yellow over illuminated "S" over a green. This is two shot grade time time and it is neat to watch it clear to green over green with the advance signal changing from red to yellow over illuminated "S".
My favorite signals are the ones that read 'clear'. My least favorite are the ones that read 'stop'. As for types, the ones that Amtrak uses with the three lamps in a triangle are my least favorite, and I don't know what my favorite is.
Track switches? By far the coolest are the moveable frog types Metro-North is installing in a lot of places. There's even a few on the New haven line now!!! They look way cool, and you don't even feel them.
If we're talking about a specific signal rather than a type, I would offer the pre-DeKalb rebuilding home signal on the track coming up from Lawrence Streeet and the Montague St. Tunnel. The lower signal would show green for Brighton, yellow for 4th Avenue, and blue for DeKalb bypass to 4th Avenue express. It was the only blue designation anywhere in the system, I've been told.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Position lights, LOVE position lights! Approach Limited was a particular favorite.
o
o
o
o
o
o
FLASHING
Proceed aprroaching next signal at Limited Speed (45MPH).
Train must reduce to Limited Speed as soon as the engine passes the Approach Limited signal.
Depending on the location, some of them have colors in the various aspects. Ie; yellow for diagonal (approach), green for clear (vertical) and red for stop (horizontal)
Tried a macro of the position light, but it didn't work!
I like 14L Home Signal in Union Port Yard witch leads on to the
main line on the Southbound side
I like the IRT Kiosks of 1904. Neat-o!!!
The Spanish Mission house at the Morris Park IRT station is VERY nice.
BTW they have replaced some of those kiosks - Astor Place, Borough Hall (for the elevators only) etc. I wonder if they did the same at Nevins Street, as I remember seeing one there as a young child.
Wayne
I like the Bowling Green Entrance
The station house at 72nd St. and Broadway is charming. Too bad there is no free transfer between uptown and downtown trains. Then , when you step outside, you can stand on the metal grating and look straight down at one of the express tracks.
I also liked the IND entrances along 8th Ave. when they used to say, "8th Ave. - Independent Subway System".
There any R12,14,15,17,21,22 surving subway cars now?
See the Museum Car Roster
As an aside, if you are new to the site you should explore it! SubTalk isn't all there is. Click the "www.nycsubway.org" logo at the top of any page to be brought to the main index.
-Dave
Does R-40 slants run on the E, F, G and R lines?
R40 Slants does run on E,F,Q,B,and L. I don't know R40 Slants run on R,N,M,J,A,and D
There are no slant 40's on the E or F or even the R. They are exclusively R-46s and R-32s
D is exclusively R-68s
M & J are 40Ms and 42s
A is either 32/38 or 44s
Q is generally slants and the B is usually 68As
The Slant R40s are divided into two camps:
One is the Eastern Division camp - #4398-4449 (48 units) (#4420-4421-4427-4428 are gone). These run exclusively on the "L".
The other is the Coney Island camp #4150 to #4397. They run on the
"Q", "N" and occasionally as a put-in on the "B".
As Steve said, no other lines run Slant R40 but these four.
Wayne |MrSlantR40\
See the Subway FAQ for a somewhat recent list of car assignments. It's a little out of date but I'll try to bring it up to snuff this week.
Forgive my comment, but Joseph sounds like a kid. Dave's suggestion is the best - www.nycsubway.org is more than Subtalk. Start on the main page and much information will be yours.
I've been in this business for almost 40 years, and I asked a lot of silly questions at first. That's how we all learned the vast information at our fingertips.
My comments exactly Joseph comments are way out of wack. Yesterday
he named about every car series saying this blinks and that don't
blink. I wish there was a way to block that guy.
Does R-42s run on the C line.
No!
See the Subway FAQ for a somewhat recent list of car assignments, which I will bring up to date this week.
Living in New York and having been fortunate enough to vist London I have been struck by the similarities of the two systems. To begin with both New York and London's Rapid Transit Systems are definitely in the "Major Leagues" or for soccer fans"the World Cup Catergory."
This is due both to the sheer size of the systems (about 250+miles)in both cases and the number of rolling stock.(NY-5600+/- and London 4500+/-)(I know my figures are not exact).
Both systems can be readily divided into two groups, the NY one into the 9 foot wide lines(IRT) and the ten foot wide lines(BMT/IND).The London system has the Tube Lines and the Surface Lines.
Also both cities have a smaller rapid transit system that it not(or was not) part of the main system. New York has the PATH System and London has the Waterloo & City Line which until recently was operated by British Rail, Southern Region but is now run by London Transport.Perhaps some comments on how thses two compare to other systems and each other?
Regards,Redbird
Redbird do you know if london has One Person Train Operation.
Because a thouth that they had 2 person operation but my friends
tell me diffrent
Only the Northern Line remains under two-person operation (driver and guard = motorman and conductor). This too will end soon as new rolling stock is delievered for the Northern Line.
Funny that the PATH and the W&C line should be compared. Exchange Place is very strongly similar to a typical tube station in London. Occasionally I'll hear a sound while in the WTC-bound tunnel that reminds me of the Underground (The Underground's sounds are pretty unique-- it doesn't sound quite like the NY subway or any other system I've been on...) Maybe some day I will doctor up a photo of Exchange Place and put a tube train in it, or a picture of, say, Covent Garden with a Path PA-series train. :-)
The Waterloo and City Line has now been transferred to London Transport. It is hard to say what they will do with it, whether long-term extensions might be planned, or whether it will continue to be run as it is.
Having done the reverse of Redbird (live in England but luckily enough, have travelled on NYCTA Subways) the main difference is of course the two different stock profiles in use here in London.
District, Hammersmith & City, Circle, East London & Metropolitan
all use full height "surface " stock
whilst Northern, Piccadilly,Bakerloo,Jubilee, Victoria, Central & Waterloo & City use smaller "TUBE" stock.
This is a noticeable size difference, more so than IRT,BMT-IND differences on th NYC system.
If any readers visit London several stations have SURFACE and TUBE stock operating on the same running lines so comparison and photograph is easy..(e.g. Ealing Common station - served by SURFACE
stock on the District Line as well as Piccadilly Line TUBE stock.
Also the use of a 430 volt LIVE rail (possitive) and 210 volt 4th rail
(inbetween tracks at 210 volts) is different from NYC 3rd rail only operation.
Other than that our two great cities have the best mass transit railways in the World, that we can all agree on !!!!!!
Regards
Rob
London UK
:^)
Rob, I always thought that the forth (inner) rail was the return and originally installed under an Act of Parliament to prevent earth leakage of current by keeping the return away from the tunnel structure and nearby buildings. I did not think it was there to carry 210 volts. I thought most cars have rotary converters for ancilliary power.
Very true Simon, the Fourth rail situated inbetween the running rails (negative rail) returns voltage a 210 volts dc, my last post did not make this clear...well spotted !! :^)
Regards
Rob :^!
The point being made is that neither the third or fourth rail is at ground potential. The operating voltahe is the difference between them. (about 650 V)
As a Train Operator (I much prefer our former title of 'Motorman'!), on the District Line of LU can I remind you that we also operate trains onto track owned by 'Railtrack' which is electrified at their usual voltage of 750v DC. On the sections in question:(DISTRICT LINE- Turnham Green to Richmond, Putney Bridge to Wimbledon. BAKERLOO LINE- Queens Park to Harrow & Wealdstone) LU trains 'C-stock', 'D-stock', '1972-stock' are fitted with higher rated fuses than is standard. Centre 4th rails are provided solely for use by LUL trains, these then being bonded to the running-rails for return.
Colin M. Smith.
Simon: What is the advantage of the four rail system over the three rail system that we use in New York?. Thanks.
Redbird
I seem to recall reading somewhere that when the City and South London ( nowerdays the City Branch of the Northern Line )was first built it was stipulated that current leakage to earth had to fall within certain limits and this could only be achieved by fitting a forth rail for the return current. This also had the advantage of keeping signalling circiuts clean. I believe the IRT had problems in this respect (page 136 The New York Subway Its Contruction and Equipment)
With cast iron tunnel linings, there were always fears that earth leakage would be a problem. Even with 4 rails, I recall that the Bakerloo Line had problems right from the start and ran for a time with the centre rail positive and the outside rail for return. I guess that four rails are note remotely necessary for the surface lines, but that standardisation is important. Underground systems in Liverpool, Glasgow (I think), and the Waterloo and City Line and Great Northern Electrics in London (more similar to Path than Waterloo and City Line?) are all perfectly happy with only three rails.
The Waterloo & City Line was transferred to LUL ownership from 1st April 1996(how appropriate!). During it's major re-build and re-equiping with LUL type '1992-stock' trains, it was found easier to install a 4th centre negative rail, LUL standard, than to convert the in-build '1992-stock' trains!
Rob,
You say that the 4th rail is at -210 volts. Does this mean that it is dangerous to touch? I have never been able to find out and do not wish to do so the hard way!
Max Roberts
One other thing: New York's subway trains operate right-handed, while London's Underground trains (and probably British Rail, for that matter) operate left-handed.
Speaking of which, which way do trains run through the Chunnel?
To the London Subtalkers: Am I correct in assuming that at one time the Central Line ran left-handed at White City. If this is true why and does it still do this? Many thanks,
Larry,Redbird
Yes, White City definitely is still reversed. The tracks are in the open and one just rises over the other and then back again after the station. No idea why on this one. There is at least one other place but cannot for the life of me think where. It might be on the Victoria Line. There are a few places on the network where the tracks are stacked (e.g. Borough, and Chancery Lane).
As I understand it the original Central line terminus was at Shepherds Bush. Access ran from Shepherds Bush to the yard at Wood Lane on the surface. When the line was extended and the station was built at Wood Lane ( now moved 100yds west and called White City) the works required crossing the tunnels. A west bound journey now by passes the old Wood Lane station. An east bound passes through it. The old station building is visable at Ground level and is opposite the BBC television centre. The line re-croses a bit further up the track. There is still a small yard at Wood Lane. The section of the Northern line after Moorgate (southbound) also runs on the right. I have no idea why. I seek enlightenment.
Right, after a bit of research I can answer the question. All of my prevous statement is true with the addition that Wood Lane Station was built on a loop which ran anticlockwise and as such Wood Lane was a single platfrom. With left hand running the line needed to cross and did this just after Shepherds Bush. When the line was extended to White City and beyind it was extended on each side of the loop and hence the arrangement we have today.
Simon: Thank you very much for the info.As I said in a previous post the NY and LT systems have much in common even in their peculiarites. There you have one station out of what?250+ and one station only has right-hand running. We have a station here on the Canarsie Line(L) called Wilson Av. The southbound track is on the upper level in the open and the Manhattan bound track is in subway underneath it.
Best Wishes,Redbird
My pleaseure. On my last subway tour I had a detailed tour of the Canarsie Line accompanied by one of the main contributors to these pages. Looking forward to the next one in March.
I have managed to find more right-hand running. This is on the Victoria line at Warren Street, Euston and Kings Cross. The reasons for this are partly space at Kings Cross, but mainly so that cross-platform interchange could be made with same direction (i.e. Northbound/Southbound) with the Northern Line at Euston - the City branch (via Bank) I think.
Max:I did ride the Victoria Line and I remember that transfer point but I never realized it was right handed. One of the lines I do recall with great interest was the Highbury & Islington Branch of the Northern Line. When I was in London back in 1969 is was still run by LT , I believe that its now run by one of the regional railroads. There were tube size trains running in railway size tunnels. We have a similar stiuation on the IRT Dyre Avenue Tunnel in the Bronx. This was built for mainline clearances of the New York, Westchester & Boston Railroad which also used overhead catenary.There is a tunnel portion at the Pelham Parkway Station that is downright cavernous.
Best Wishes,Larry,Redbird
Larry: Given that subway cars are big enough, that must be a big tunnel. The Northern City Line has quite a history for a line so short, but one of the reasons why the Moorgate tube disaster was so bad was because tube-sized trains ran in large tunnels. When the train hit the wall, the cars had much more freedom of movement in absorbing the impact: small trains in large tunnels are not a good idea.
Transferring the Northern City Line to British Rail was never very successful. In early days, there were reliability problems, and Moorgate is only a useful destination for work, not leisure, so now the line has a short working day, Monadays to Fridays. There is something planned in London called 'Thameslink 2000'. If this daes dake place (they had better get a move on) then I predict that the Northern City line will go peak hours only.
One thing that I have noticed about the New York Subway is that there does not seem to have been much line swapping with main line railways. The lines to Upminster, Epping, High Barnet, Harrow and Wealdstone, West Ruislip and Wimbledon are all main line or commuter railways that have been taken over or have an Underground service. Apart from Dyre Avenue and the Rockaways, are there others in NY?
Max Roberts
There is additional information on the New York, Westchester & Boston on this site at http://www.nycsubway.org/nywb/ - also some photographs linked from that page.
As to your question on line-swapping, the SIRT could be considered in that light. There have also been a number of station abandonments by mainline railroads because of competition from "mass transit" in New York City, even before the era of the subways - see Brennan's Disused and Abandoned Subway Stations page (linked from this site) for information on some underground stations on the former New York Central line that were abandoned over 100 years ago.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Max: I never heard about the Moorgate crash and would be grateful for more information. There has never been much interlinning between the subways and the mainline railroads on an operational basis. Both the Dyre Av and Rockaway Line were taken over by the subway several years after they had been abandoned by the railroad. The BMT(in those days the BRT) did have interline service with the Long Island Railroad from the latter part of the 19th century up till about 1918. There was a joint service from the BRT Broadway-Brooklyn El to the LIRR Rockaway Line via the Chestnut Street Incline. There also was joint service from the the Sands Street Station to the LIRR at Atlantic Av via the BRT 5 Avenue El but this only lasted from 1899-1904.The NY,Westchester and Boston was built BIG. It was a four track mainline with overhead catenary and the underground portion in the Bronx is not so much a subway as a railway tunnel with very high ceiling and a wide right of way. I daresay a Standard might be a liitle intimidated
by the size not to mention the much smaller IRT cars.Been nice talking to you.
Beat Wishes,Larry,Redbird
I remember the Moorgate crash very well as I was in London that day. Apparently the driver (I believe his name was Newson), drove with power on into the station at around 30 mph, and made no attempt to brake. The train hit the tunnel end. The front carriage which on 38 stock is about 55ft was compressed by the impact to ten foot or so. Clearence took two weeks. There was no explanation as to why the driver did not stop and I believe this remains a mystery no reason was given at the enquiry and the brakes wre operating normally. I am working from memory and time may have blurred som of the facts. I will go away and do some researh unless someone else can help.
For those interested in reading more about this terrible occurance, may i recomend "Moorgate: Anatomy of a Railway Diaster" written by Sally Holloway.
The line now operated by mainline sized stock of the WAGN (West Anglia Great Northern) TOC (Train Operating Company) is protected by several speed sensing trainstops and improved buffer stops are fitted in what is platform 9 i believe.
Regards
Rob :^)
London UK
Rob, since my last posting I have done a bit of research on the Moorgate crash. The train went through the platform with passengers awaiting to board, throught the 20yd sandtrap, and into the concrete tunnel stop at 30mph The front three cars were compressed into the distance of the sandtrap. Forty three poeple were killed including the driver. Power was on all the throught withnthew driver's hand still on the controller. London Transports worst train crash. Very sad.
Simon
Simon: Something puzzles me about this crash. If the train was approaching a terminal it should have been receiving increasingly restrictive signals. Even if the driver ignored these I'm sure that LT has an Automatic Train Stop (ATS) system comparable to the one we have here,if a driver runs a red signal the brakes are automatically applied and while this may not stop the train in time it might at least slow it down. Was there some other aspect to this crash that is not apparent? Thanks for the info.
Larry,Redbird
It would appear from the article I sought information from that no such measures were in place. They are now. It was down to the driver to stop the train safely. There had been no previous accidents on LT of this nature comparable with Moorgate.
Simon
I guess that up until that point, it simply did not occur to LT that anyone would forget about a terminal station or want to drive into a wall. Now, I believe that all terminals are protected, and perhaps some outdoor terminals are over-protected.
No one really knows why the Moorgate disaster took place. One is that the driver had some sort of fit and was not aware that he had reached the station. However, I read a very good magazine article once that pointed out that the train went over the crossover outside Moorgate so over speed that some passengers fell over. It would have to a very determined grip to keep the deadmans handle held down under those circumstances. The magazine article suggested suicide by the driver, although someone told me that he had taken a large sum of money out of the bank that morning. Simon, is the book still in print?
One thing that I have wondered is whether the guarg was in any position to intervene in any way. At what point was it clear that something was wrong. Are there any procedures or regulations in which the guard is supposed to bring a train to a halt?
I can even remember what I was doing in London that day. It was said at the time in the press reports that the driver sped through the station peering out of the cab with a glazed expression. Alcohol was reported to be found in blood samples but apparently this is normal. The book I sought reference from is LTC (Tom) Rolt's Red for Danger. I think Rob quoted another book.
Simon
Simon, the book i quoted which is sadly long out of print was written by Sally Holloway and covers the Incident from the day before (i.e. what the motorman did at home) - right through until the final wreckage had been cleared.
Moorgate Anatomy of a railway disaster is one of the best books i've read on this subject and if you can find it, I recommend you read it.
To this day the exact cause remains unanswered, in why an experienced motorman, who had driven that route allready that day, should do the unthinkable & drive his train into a dead end at line speed.......
Regards
Rob :^)
I saw the article about the IND second system and was curious as to whether there are any maps on the web for the second system plans.I know that there is a BAHN version of the map but thats not an option for me as i'm a mac user.any suggestions?
Simon: Thank you for the information. I wasn't aware that at that time LT didn't have an ATs in place. We have had our share of crashes over here.Reference the Malbone St Wreck in 1918 and the 14 Street Wreck on the IRT Lexington Av line a few years back. What was interesting was that although the Malbone St Wreck involved wooden Gate Cars and the Lexington Av wreck involved the heaviest cars ever used on the IRT,the steel R-62's, the pictures of the damaged equiptment were remarkably similar. Tonight on the local Public Broadcasting System Channel there was a segment on the King's Cross Fire.Again thanks to you and the other London folks for some very interesting postings.
Larry,RedbirdR33@hotmail
They run left handed through the tunnel ( we got our own way on that one). They swap over just after Calais. If you ever get the chance take a ride on Eurostar. Train crawls through southern England. Accelerates through the tunnel and WOW 186mph through to Paris. Its like flying but at ground level.
> Accelerates through the tunnel and WOW 186mph through to Paris.
> Its like flying but at ground level.
Even if you don't get to ride the Chunnel (I never have) the TGV experience is not to be missed. The Eurostar, or the Thalys TGV from Paris to Brussels is the fastest you or I will ever go on land (until the next generation of TGV's is ready!)
-Dave
I was on both this past summer (Eurostar from London-Paris and Thalys from Paris to Amsterdam) and I was quite impressed by both trains.
Why can't Amtrak be more like that . . . ?
>They run left handed through the tunnel ( we got our own way on that one). They swap over just after Calais.
SNCF trains run left-handed. So do Paris' RER trains.
So I don't think they swap at Calais.
Ive had two trips on the Eurostar and I must say I cannot re-call now whether they run left or right handed. There is a cross over after the Calais entrance unless I am mistaken. Paris metros run right handed. I will seek reference.
Yes, Paris Metro trains run right-handed. I also rode on a line in 1978 identified as the S line, which must have been a suburban commuter line. The trains ran left-handed, on steel wheels using overhead catenary, and the moaning and groaning from the spur-cut bull and pinion gears was outstanding!
The other great metro systems of the world would have to be Paris, Moscow (the busyest in the world by far) and possibly Berlin. Any others?
Absolutely. All the English-centric contributors on this site ignore the Tokyo subway, which is a massive system (3rd or 4th largest in world, I believe)currently undergoing major expansions. Over the next 3 years, an additional 40 km of new lines/extensions will open, including the 'nanboku-sen'(south-north line), municipal line #12 (making a 360 degree circle around the city & equipped with a massive underground rail yard), and an extension to the line linking the new-development landfill areas in Tokyo bay. There are also several major linear-induction propelled monorails in service/under construction.
The Tokyo subway includes a original set of 3rd-rail powered lines (ginza, marunouchi) very similar in feel to the IRT, as well as overhead-catenary powered newer lines. The whole system is air-conditioned, and so punctual that departures are timed down to the second, i.e. a 09:27:30 departure). Trains run on 2-3 minute headways in rush-hour and carry more people per day than in New York or London. The crowding is so bad it has to be experienced to be believed.
Do they still have pushers at station platforms in Tokyo? I'll bet the Lexington Ave. line would pale in comparison to what goes on over there.
As both a native of Stockholm, and a Train Operator in the Stockholm Underground, I must make my vocie heard on behalf of my home city. While Stockholm´s underground system is by no means in the same league as that of London or Tokyo, it is still the 10th or 12th largest system in the world, even larger if you consider the size of Stockholm. We currently move about 265 million passengers every year, with a population of about 1.4 million in the greater Stockholm area. The total length of the system is about 110 km double-track (plus depot areas e t c). The underground serves exactly 100 stations, plus one abandoned (used in times of major construction works) and one never finished. The car roster holds some 850 cars, with a major fleet refurbishment underway. The new C20 stock being introduced is a technological marvel made by ADtranz in Sweden, and is touted by the manufacutera as the world´s most advanced subway car. I have a feeling that most manufacturers would say that, but they do have a strong case. It is, undoubtedly, the largest subway car in the world (47m articulated unit, 97 metric tons at full load, about 520 passengers crush load, top speed 90kph, 8x125kW motors, IGBT thyristors).
/Joakim
Can someone describe tounge and mate switches and double tounge switches and how they differ? I am learning but some of the technical things but unless you are actually working with some of these things it is hard to differentiate between them.
Just Picked Up New Flyer Describing Improvements Being Done to #7 in Flushing
Starting Jan 31
-Main St. Will Have New Escalators And Staircases + Bustops Moved Closer To Station Exit
-Express Runs To Manhattan from 7am to 9pm
->To NY 7-12
->To Flushing 12-9pm
Plus New Cosmetic looks
Theyre not in effect yet. Supposedly Sunday the 8th now, and the elevator may not be in service for a while.
The express service probably will not go into effect until May when the new schedules or "pick" for Train Operators and Conductors goes into effect.
I was on the "G" line twords 10'o clock, getting off at Grand Ave. The "G" I was on come into the station, and as soon as the train stopped, the doors opened and while me and a few family members where stepping out of the train the doors closed (on me) forcing me to pull myself off of the train. Now, the conductor saw me cause I was looking at him (from a distance since I was twords the back of the train), but he didnt re-open the doors. The doors were open for only a very short time. Why was the train in such a hurry to open and close the doors?
[Also on the "F" train from Coney Island same thing happened, except that time it was in the mid-day and it was my back-pack that got cought.]
Thanks
Tom
**On the bright side, now I know I have to be ready to jump off a late night train cause I know this one didn't like stopping for long:>
Are you sure it wasn't an R train? The G operates between Smith-9sts and Court square during those hours(late night)
There are some good reasons why conductors are in such a hurry. None of us wants to answer the nasty questions from a dispatcher about "where did you loose your time?"
No one wants to be late, that guy may have had to use the bathroom, or some such issue.
Here is the prevalent philosophy among my fellow conductors:
People wait for trains, trains DON'T wait for people. Because if you're not waiting in front of the doors when the train stops, you WILL be waiting there when the train leaves.
I know that it sounds cruel, but thats the way it's been since the begining of railroading. I have a schedrule to keep, and our responsibility is to those passengers already on the train, not the one or two poor souls left behind on the platform.
BZZZZT Wrong answer. If you catch someone in the doors let them out
Accident reports take more time than good operating procedures.
If some guy is stuck and can't pull out immediately, the conductor should most certainly jolt the doors to let him out.
But I agree with Steve: there is no reason to keep the doors open any longer than a few seconds during the off-hours, for the sake of one or two passengers. These people should NOT be allowed to take their time getting off.
The same goes for the masses trying to load the trains during rush hours. It's terrible that at certain stations, a constant influx of passengers from a staircase into a nearby train car could keep the train stuck for a matter of minutes. Every man on the platform tries to squeeze through when the conductor jolts the doors.
Did I say Steve? I meant Erik. I'm terribly sorry to both of you.
Is it really a federal offense to hold the doors. I have heard one or two conductors, mostly on Metro-North say ( to people Purposley holding the doors ) that it is a federal offense to impede the motion of a train in anyway whatsoever.
When one hods doors & delays a train they are "Blocking Governmental Administration"
Since the commuter railroads fall under the FRA, anyone who impedes the operation, and is arrested, will be tried in federal court.
I agree wholeheartedly that a train should not be held for people trying to make it on the train. But I have to disagree about people getting off the train. I have seen people who did not have time to get off the train because the doors were only left open for a second or two, and there is no reason for that. Even when there is no one waiting on the platform, the conductor needs to assume that people might be trying to exit the train. Just leaving the doors open for at least three seconds would be fine, but sometimes they do not. It's real hassle if someone has to go to the next stop, and maybe pay another fare if there's no cross-over/under.
The TA policy is; The door should remain open for at least 10 seconds.
The way I handle this situation at night, when I may be tempted to close the doors sooner. I make the proper "in station" anouncements regardless of time of day, this done properly takes at least 7 sec.
As far as being late is concerned, I follow the old rule I learned while in TA Buses, if your late stay late. There is no safe way to make up time on the road. Thats what Dispatchers are for, to make service adjustments.
An observation I have made is that RTO(Subways) is much more interested in "where you lost your time" than they were in Buses. They put on this big show here in RTO that "Every second counts" but heaven forbid you have an incident. I am sure they won't want here "I was trying to make every second count".
Three "S's" rule transit opertions
1. Safety
2. Service to Customers
3. Schedule
in that order and without the first two the third dosen't matter.
Yea, they stressed the three "S's" in buses, but you don't here enough of about it in RTO. Instead they put stickers near the PA mikes that say "Every second counts".
On the first JJ train I rode in March of 1968, the doors didn't stay open for more than maybe 3 seconds at each station. Granted, this was on a Sunday afternoon, and stations weren't crowded.
First of all, there is an old railroad axiom:
"There is always a reason for being late but never an excuse for being early."
Actually, the lot of a conductor is not an easy one, be it rush hour or off hour. I recently rode an E train into Manhattan from Union Turnpike at 7:45 AM. Although, by the time we got to Queens Plaza there was not an available space on the train, it didn't stop people from holding the doors while they tried to squeeze in.
Typical on the off hours, the conductor will be closing the doors and he'll hear form the mezzanine, "Hold the doors." Alas, if he does, the person will come running down, get on the train and then invariably hold the doors for his friends who didn't want to run.
People as a rule are not very bright either. I recently saw one young lady, at Columbus Circle, attempt to board a 'D' train, head first. The doors actually closed around her neck. Fortunately, the door obstruction system worked and the train did not move because the conductor never would have seen her with the crowd on the platform.
Bottom line, no matter how dilligent a conductor is, someone will always try to squeeze onto the train as the doors close. Unless you've tried it, you can't imagine how difficult the C/Rs job can be...
Astoria bound N at Fifth Ave. one day. I had an R32, and I was looking out the cab window during the station stop. Conductor attempted to close down. While the doors were in the closing mode, some young woman quickly approached the train and held out this white package in front of her as if the doors operated like elevator doors. The conductor saw this & immediately hit the opening buttons. She got on, he closed down. As I released the brakes, I quickly opened my cab door because I was curious. That white package was a baby blanket with the baby wrapped in it.
Almost as bad is the stroller,with baby inside,used to block the doors as they're closing. Then there's the "Yuppie Dive",an event similar to what Steve described. Should an injury occur,their story is always that they were hit by the doors,when in fact it was the other way around. On the bright side,I've noticed that the general public seems to getting fed up with such behavior,and are more willing to come forward as witnesses to such stupidity.
Almost as bad is the stroller,with baby inside,used to block the doors as they're closing. Then there's the "Yuppie Dive",an event similar to what Steve described. Should an injury occur,their story is always that they were hit by the doors,when in fact it was the other way around. On the bright side,I've noticed that the general public seems to getting fed up with such behavior,and are more willing to come forward as witnesses to such stupidity.
This isn't subway, but my favorite "idiot passenger in doors" is the ditz who gets off a car at the treadle doors first, then turns around and picks up the child from the top step. The door promptly closes on the kid and the woman's (they're usually the mother) arms. Usually the sensitive edge picks up the blockage and reopens the doors, but sometimes not. I never had it happen to me, but I've read accident reports where the "picker upper" got dragged. My late grandmother saw a woman get caught & dragged by the rear treadle door on on of our OMDE (One Man Double End) semi-convertibles. She REFUSED to get off at a treadle door for the rest of her life.
Just be glad all of the NYC subway are standard subway cars. The Green Line in Boston is a Light Rail line (for those who don't know), and it takes forever for people to get on and off the train since there are only a few doors, loads of people, and stairs to climb. Sometimes the train is in the station for 3 to 5 minutes. However, conductors don't have a choice but to wait, and I'm assuming the M.B.T.A makes time allowances for this. When you have a system that was built 102 years ago for a few hundered thousand people, and now you get over a million riders per day, it can get real interesting. Luckily the red, orange and blue lines are regular subways...with the exception of the Asmont extension of the red line, which still uses the PCC trolleys.-Nick
The Boston Green Line trolleys are accidents waiting to happen. Not the fault of the MBTA; it's the riders. Every so often I see students in front of Boston U. run across the street through traffic, waving their arms and yelling at an inbound trolley to wait up. On occasion, when the trolley DOES wait up, they get held up by the first student or two because all their friends are waiting for the traffic to clear!
Yeah, I know how that is....I'm one of 250,000 Boston college students myself. While I don't play games like that, many others do. However, I have to be careful in Cleveland Circle, where the C trains turn around. It's not just cars that I have to worry about getting hit! One of the big problems is that the Green Line runs mostly single cars, with a few double cars during peak hours. But the cars don't keep up with the demand of people, many trains fill up at the first stop (Government Center), and the cars get more and more crowded stop after stop. The problem is that while the cars can connect to each other, you can't walk through them, so a paid conductor has to be in every car. I hope the next generation of trolleys allow you to walk through each car, then the M.B.T.A can start running more double cars, and even triple cars....which I've only seen once. Triple cars are feasable, even the shortest outbound platforms are 3 cars long.-Nick
The same thing happens here in Phila on the Kawasaki LRV's. There are many warnings at the center doors advising passengers to not leave small children on the step behind them since the sensor may not accurately pick up the weight and the doors will close. Also, the parents pick up the kids behind them, as Dan described, and the doors close. I use the subway-surface infrequently but have seen numerous instances of parents ignoring the warnings and then watching the car begin to move away from a subway stop with children still on the steps. This is usually followed by banging on the car sides, profanity, etc. It is truly unbelievable!
Re: sticking packages, etc., in the doors.
Here in Chicago, the trial of Rachel Barton v. Chicago & NorthWestern Transportation Company et al. is in full swing. This involves a woman who lost her leg when her violin case (containing a Strad worth half a million!) got caught in the doors of a Metra train, she did not or could not get free, and she was dragged under the train as it took off. There is some speculation that she purposely put the case in the door so as to keep the doors open and thus catch the train. There is also speculation that the case really did get stuck but she would not let go because of the violin's value (despite the fact that it was insured). Obviously, these two speculations are mutually exclusive.
Her main contentions are that the doors have no safety mechanism to reopen or even warn if they are blocked, that the conductor's don't check ip to the last second for people stuck in the doors, and that she couldn't get free of the violin case. IIRC, Metra is saying that its trains are not suited for checking at the last minute and that they have no duty to have safety mechanisms on the doors, and that her damages should be reduced due to her negligence in not letting go of the case.
[ Metra is saying that its trains are not suited for checking at the last minute and that they have no duty to have safety mechanisms on the doors ]
Wow!
Not suited for checking?? A conductor can't stick his head out a window or door and make sure people are safe as the train starts to move? That would seem like basic humanity to me. How can a transit authority say that the safety of its passengers is not it's concern??
"A conductor can't stick his head out a window or door and make sure people are safe as the train starts to move?"
Since all the windows on a Metra train are sealed, except for the engineer's side window, the conductor cannot stick his or her head out as conductors and operators on the subway do. As for looking out the door, some conductors do this, but since to do this they are holding the doors open with their bodies and leaning over to look down the side of the train, right before it is about to start moving, they are placing themselves at a significant risk of falling off/under the train.
As to a duty to have safety mechanisms on the door, people are used to this from elevators, but few (if any?) railways have automatic re-openers on their doors. Unless such a mechanism can automatically and reliably stop the train from taking off as well as holding the doors, an automatic door-reopener could actually be quite dangerous.
[ As for looking out the door, some conductors do this, but since to do this they are holding the doors open with their bodies and leaning over to look down the side of the train, right before it is about to start moving, they are placing themselves at a significant risk of falling off/under the train. ]
You're mostly right, but I have observed SEPTA and AMTRAK conductors do this at every stop. With a good handle to hold on to, and some basic safety training, I don't think it's all that dangerous.
[ Unless such a mechanism can automatically and reliably stop the train from taking off as well as holding the doors, an automatic door-reopener could actually be quite dangerous. ]
These issues have been worked out on most subway cars - why not borrow door safety systems from those types of rolling stock?
The fact is, all that's required is a light to indicate when all of the doors are fully closed. It could be inside, next to each door, so that a conductor could monitor it without putting himself at any risk whatsoever.
What really bothers me is the apparent lack of concern for passenger safety. How is it that no one saw this coming? There is no system for making sure the doors are closed AND no one checks to see if someone is caught?? I know it will never happen, but if you ask me, there should be criminal action against the people who made the decisions against any of those protections.
And to not see people admitting that they made a grave mistake is even more upsetting. How can they defend themselves? We're talking about people's lives here and they're saying it's not their duty?
The case of this woman may be unique - if she could have let go of the violin and not lost her leg, then that is different. But what if someone got their arm caught and was dragged along? People die that way.
I am sure that when London Underground trains had guards, it was electrically impossible to give the starting signal unless all doors were properly closed. With OPTO, it is not possible to start a train unless all doors are likewise properly closed. Underground cars have had a door pilot light on the outside of each car since the 1950s, but this was so that a car that was preventing the starting signal could be quickly identified
If this is correct, and assuming that the technology is reliable and cheap, then surely its use should be commonplace. I suppose there might be the problem that a single passenger could prevent a train departure by the use of an object, but is this the reason why these systems are not universal?
"These issues have been worked out on most subway cars - why not borrow door safety systems from those types of rolling stock?"
But the Metra trains, with the exception of the Electric Line, are not MU electric trains like a subway. They are diesel locomotives pulling cars. I would tend to think that would complicate any system of preventing the train from moving if a door is open or blocked. Are there railways with diesel locos pulling unpowered cars that have door safety systems?
"The fact is, all that's required is a light to indicate when all of the doors are fully closed. It could be inside, next to each door, so that a conductor could monitor it without putting himself at any risk whatsoever."
A light letting the conductor know if any door is open could be done without too much complication, since the doors are electrically controlled from one location and thus the wiring is there already. But if the light comes on, the only way the conductor has of preventing the train from taking off is pulling the emergency brake, buzzing a stop, or yelling "STOP" into his radio -- all of those being limited by the conductor's reaction time. I suppose you could, with some rewiring, have the indicator light in the engineer's cab, and have a rule that he cannot release the brake until the light shows all doors closed.
[A light letting the conductor know if any door is open could be done without too much complication, since the doors are electrically controlled from one location and thus the wiring is there already. But if the light comes on, the only way the conductor has of preventing the train from taking off is pulling the emergency brake, buzzing a stop, or yelling "STOP" into his radio -- all of those being limited by the conductor's reaction time. I suppose you could, with some rewiring, have the indicator light in the engineer's cab, and have a rule that he cannot release the brake until the light shows all doors
closed.]
Or there can be a requirement that the conductor has to give an "all clear" (in other words, all doors are closed) before the engineer can start the train.
Indeed, if the lights can be wired to a door control position, they can be wired to a panel in the "cab". The engineer then must either see all clear or receive verbal override account failed indicator from the conductor. Mind you, this is not rocket science. The IC Electrics--built 1926-7!--had indicator lights in the cabs, and the procedure was go only after they cleared or the conductor signaled by buzzer.
I have never seen METRA equipment up close but it seems to me that a simple modification to the conductor's window would solve this problem. Perhaps METRA is guilty of the corporate arrogance thet the TA is often accused of.
Metra Trains are probably very similar to our local commuter railroads, I know Metro-North Uses a conductor-Motorman Buzzer. One conductor in the last car also shines a flashlight which reflects in the motormans side-view mirror after all the doors are closed.
There IS no conductor's window on Metra trains! If there were, they could stick there heads out like the subway conductors and operators do and there wouldn't be a problem.
A Metra car has one set of double doors on each side of the car, in the middle of the car. Each door has a sealed window in it at head height. The doors lead into a vestibule only as wide as the doors. You then turn right or left and go through another (manually-operated) sliding door to enter either passenger compartment of the car. Right inside the door are stairs leading up to the upper seating gallery. Past the stairs are the rows of passenger seats, with sealed windows ad head height from a sitting perspective. Except for a lavatory in one corner of the car, that's it. There's no conductor station, area, or cab as on subways. The conductor's position, when not roaming the train, is in the vestibule, and he controls the doors from a panel right above the doors.
Please find a photo of a Metra car on the Net and look at it before you make any snap judgments about what modifications can or cannot be made to the cars, and thus about Metra management.
[There IS no conductor's window on Metra trains! If there were, they could stick there heads out like the subway conductors and operators do and there wouldn't be a problem.
Please find a photo of a Metra car on the Net and look at it before you make any snap judgments about what modifications can or cannot be made to the cars, and thus about Metra management.]
This just begs the question: Why did Metra order cars that lack opening windows and cannot be modified? It must have occurred to management that conductors' inability to see could be a safety hazard.
I stand corrected but since a picture of the car would not likely indicate the position of the MDC relative to the windows, I doubt that this would help. As stated in a previous post, Why would METRA opt for such an inadequate design? I could unserstand why you might like the design. It must be a real money maker for you or your friends.
"I could understand why you might like the design. It must be a real money maker for you or your friends."
There's an ignoramus statement for you right there!! Ok, Amazing Kreskin, how do YOU *KNOW* that I or anyone I know makes money off the design?
As a matter of fact, I'm just a concerned citizen with a viewpoint. I don't work for the Chicago & NorthWestern Railway, Metra, RTA, the manufacturers or vendors of rail cars to any of them, or any of their law firms. But rather than face the fact that someone just plain disagrees with you, you have to impugn (that means insult, dingbat!) their motives by implying they profit personally from the present configuration of Metra's train cars.
This is part of a breakdown of debate and discussion in society. Some people are so sure of their position that they can't face that someone honestly disagrees with them. Therefore, the opposition is not just wrong or stupid, it must be evil! They must be in the pockets of special interests!
I've heard the "you must be making money off it!" insult used more than once on this board in the past. Maybe we should have a rule that nobody makes the blank statement that someone who posts a comment you disagree with must be profiting from the decision you disagree with unless you actually KNOW that they profit from it?
[There's an ignoramus statement for you right there!! Ok, Amazing Kreskin, how do YOU *KNOW* that I or anyone I know makes money off the design?]
I believe what he meant is that as a lawyer, you (if not you personally, then some of your colleagues) benefit from the personal injury/wrongful death suits that arise from this unsafe design.
In the Saturday February 6 NY Daily News, page 6, is an article about the MTA is refusing to give refunds to people who lose or misplace their Metrocards-even though the MTA has the technology to do so.
After you good folks read the article your thoughts as usual are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Suggestion: When you buy a MetroCard write down the s/n & put that info someplace safe (just like you would do with Travlers Checks).
If you bought a "value" MC there isn't any good reason why the TA shouldn't give you your money back. The "time/unlimited" MC is a bit more difficulate, but if you loose a monthly unlim in the beggining of the month, they SHOULD be able to give you a refund.
With the s/n they CAN "negitive list" the card so it's dead. They can also see where it is being used, i.e. if you lost it a week ago & they can see that it isn't currently being used ... bingo ! Pick up a form from your friendly subway station agent.
Disclaimer: I don't work for the TA or DOT.
Mr t__:^)
This MTA set-up is great. The pols demand more service, while allocating less money for transporation than anywhere else. All the money is diverted to Democratic (non-profit health and social service) and Republican (every relative on the Nassau County payroll) patronage organizations.
With the reopoening of the 63rd Street line to full service. Does the B get round the clock service on the full route or does it revert back to two Midnight shuttles. What time does the first and last Q's depart Queensbride Is there still a service overlap in the evening between 9-10pm
The service is scheduled to revert to what it was before the 63rd Street line shutdown one year ago:
--Q to 21st Street Monday-Friday from 6a-9:30p
--B to 21st Street Monday-Friday 9:30p-1a and all day on weekends
--F to 21st St overnight 7 days a week
Michael
That can't be because the B had been operating two shuttles one in B'klyn and on between 2nd ave and Queensbridge refur to your old subway map.
Which old subway map are you talking about?
Since the Queensbridge extension opened in 1989, service has run in the following patterns (forgive me for not knowing the years...):
Pattern 1 (1989-????)
Q-21st St-Brighton Beach, weekdays 6a-9p; 21st St-2nd Avenue weeknights 9p-1a
B-168th St-Coney Island, weekdays 6a-12midnight; 21st Street-Coney Island weekends
I'm not sure what ran overnight, but I know there NEVER was a B shuttle to Second Avenue; it was either an F train or the Q shuttle to Second Avenue (the train to the plane was gone at this point). This is where you might be thinking there was a B shuttle
Pattern 2
Q-21st St-Brighton Beach, weekdays 6a-9p
B-168th St-Coney Island, weekdays 6a-9p; 21st St-Coney Island, weekdays 9p-1a and weekends
Q/F combination-overnights. This train was designated an F to 47/50 St, then became a Q between 47/50 to 21st St (in patterns 3, you will notice this was changed. Finally, logic prevailed at the TA).
Pattern 3
Q-21st St-Brighton Beach, weekdays 6a-9p
B-168th St-Coney Island, weekdays 6a-9p; 21st St-Coney Island, weekdays 9p-1a and weekends
F-21st St-Coney Island overnights.
Pattern 3 is what was in effect before the 63rd Street line reconstruction.
Michael
I'm talking about the Map dated September 1997 When teh F reinstated into Jamaica 24 hours a day, a night shuttle was instituded between 2nd Ave/Houston St and Queensbridge. Through the map states it's a S train It is actually a b train.
Guess what? You're right. :-)
I remember that now, but it was so brief... I believe it had something to do with the 63rd Street connection and work north of Queens Plaza (the schedule situation with the G's terminating at Court Square all times).
I don't know if they'll go that route again, though.
Michael
The original evenings/nights shuttle was designated as Q, and used the Q's R-68's.
Funny, but a few years ago, before new signs were put up at 14th St, I could see that there were signs pasted over something, and looking at the imprint at what was underneath, it was the B to 2nd Av, on the southbound side, and to 21st St on the northbound side! And to further prove it was new, it was in the larger fonts, that began to be used in the mid-90's. So there must have been some prposal to have a B shuttle on 6th Av that got changed.
If the F will serve 21st Street overnight, what line will serve 179th Street overnight? The G?
Most likely the G, yes.
Remember—it is still operating to Continental Avenue weekdays from 6a-9p. It is only AFTER the 63rd Street extension opens that the G will be cut back to Court Square (or so many people believe).
BTW: the 63rd Street extension won't open for another two years (maybe sooner). But it's not imminent.
Michael
The G is still scheduled to terminate at Court Square for our next pick during late night hours and weekends.The F will still go to 179st 24/7.I will let you know what will go to 21st by the end of the week when I look at the pick book.(I'm off on wed/thu)
Why didn't the G terminate at Church ave? So the F go express from Church ave to Bergen St both way and the G go local from Bergen St to terminate at Church Ave both way. So the F go local after Church Ave to Stillwell Ave.
[Why didn't the G terminate at Church ave? So the F go express from Church ave to Bergen St both way and the G go local from Bergen St to terminate at Church Ave both way. So the F go local after Church Ave to Stillwell Ave. ]
Why no G to Church? No good reason. It makes sense operationally; Culver locals would not be held up by Gs turning around between Smith/9th and 4th. In order to maintain frequency, they'd have to put more trains on the G, which is not likely due to the secret car shortage and the relative insignificance of the line.
F expresses are a good idea, and putting more Gs on the local are too (I'd say about a third of your average Manhattan-bound morning F transfers at Jay, so it would dovetail nicely with current patterns) but eliminating all F locals past Church would be neither popular nor smart.
-Daniel Casey
That could not be done now because F trains cannot stop at Bergen St. lower level due to poor platform conditions. It is so bad due to leaking water damage, the monetary cost would be prohibitive. Plus that was tried already many years ago, passengers for local stops "pitched a bitch" because they didn't like having to wait for a connecting GG train for their stop. It added too much additional travel time to their trip.
Any opinions on whether or not the TA should bother
with replacements for lost or stolen cards? MTA's Getting Free Ride — Pol
from today's Daily News.
I think the MTA could use the money for thousands of things better than helping out careless, unorganized people.
Don't get me wrong; I understand if somebody gets their Metrocard stolen, it's not their fault. But on the other hand, this issue doesn't justify the extra cost, time, and effort on the part of the MTA which could be better used elsewhere.
Now that I've said all that... I can't seem to access the article. Does anyone know what kind of costs this policy would involve?
A MetroCard, like a subway token should be classified as a "bearer" instrument.
I tried the link on my original post. It works. Anyway, the article doesn't mention cost- only that the MTA considers that it would be a logistical nightmare. I agree--the effort and cost wasted on such a program could be much better used elsewhere.
Well, the only way this will work at all is if the customer makes a note of the serial number on the card. I can't remember the last time I paid attention to anything on the card other than 'do I have enough fare?'
-Hank
I did write down the number of my very first card but not since.
I did write down the number of my very first card but not
since.
It would be nice if lost Metrocards could be replaced, but somehow I doubt it'll happen anytime soon. I'm actually a lot more concerned about something else. Every month, I buy a $214 monthly LIRR ticket. If that's lost, there's no replacement available and I'm out a lot more money than would be the case with a MC. Even worse, the LIRR ticket is printed on relatively flimsy card stock that might not survive an accidental trip through the washing machine (someday I'll have to experiment with the previous month's ticket and see what happens).
Peter, You can apply for a refund ... don't know anyone who ever got one though.
Mr t__:^)
To Thurston- Please e-mail me re: your depot-my PC crashed and I lost the info.
Regarding refunds on lost LIRR monthlies ... you probably can get refunds if you're in the Mail&Ride program, as the LIRR then has your name and ticket serial number. But that wouldn't do me much good, as I always buy my tickets each month for cash (technically, the LIRR doesn't know I exist). I know, I know, M&R probably would be a good idea, guess it's just inertia on my part that I don't participate (although the anonymity is sorta nice in a way). Meanwhile, I just take *real* good care of the tix!
The TA has an office for this purpose on the ground floor at 370 Jay Street Brooklyn.
Mr t__:^)
There is another problem. Some cards such as employee passes, reduced Fare MetroCard, School Passes are listed as stolen if they are lost. The problem with that is when the person finds the card and then tries to use the card. The card will not work, they bring it to the booth and I see that it was "negative listed" (not good for entry into the system.) This creates hard feelings and they usually jump. No- if I lose a twenty dollar bill it is lost--I dont expect that I can go to a bank and get another just because I lost one bill.
I suggest that iron maidens be placed everywhere to prevent that bad guys from not paying their fair.
I like your idea, but during rush hours they would be too slow and if we used service gates we'd have people rushing the gate. I have worked gate jobs and even booths. They would wait till we open the gate for a carriage or bicycle or wheelchair and then grad the gate before it latches and beat the fare that way-of course, we challenge the fare ebater but they know when cops are not around or when the train arrives and jump on the train before the cops can catch the feare jumper. We call these people "professional fare beaters" vs the kids who get caught.
[We call these people "professional fare beaters" vs the
kids who get caught.]
I have memories of "fare eaters", you remember the guys that used to suck the tokens out of the slot after they had jammed it so the token wouldn't go all the way down. You would see these same guys up on the street offering to sell you that token ... yuck :-(
Mr t__:^)
1st I don't agree with Henry ... the TA should provide refunds, provided the customer knows the s/n on the card, if not well they'll learn to write it down for the next time.
2nd to my token booth friend ... don't take this personal, BUT if someone shows up with a employee, senior, or disabled MC, KEEP the card, if the customer doesn't look like the photo ! If they complain, ask if they would like to wait for your supvr & instead call the police to take them away in handcuffs ! Are these folks that apparently are doing that to you realy THAT STUPID ? Alternately, I have to feel for you folks, since you're assigned to that station over a period of time ... I wouldn't want to have to look over my shoulder every time I came to work because I did the right thing & the customer got mad. We don't encourage customers to pay us a visit to this depot.
3rd school passes, that's a little harder & you have probally been getting a run on them, i.e. they just expired.
Mr t__:^)
SOmetimes the police do not show up for 1 1/2 HOURS! seriously. we do keep fraudulent passes but most then proceed to jump. Yesterday I arrived at WTC and noticed a fare beater. Out of habit I challengesd the person and to my surprise a PATH agent was there and motioned for a neraby PA Cop who "rewarded" the fare beater even though he jumped back out!
Also if we keep a card we *have* to contact supervision and write a statement. One time at Stilwell I did get a cop to arrest a senior citizen who tried to use a school pass. The agent in the booth noticed and mentioned there was a plain clothes cop in the station. I left the booth(I was on gates) and went to the cop. The cop went over to the guy who was still swiping the student pass and showed the senior his badge. The guy was arrested and lead away in handcuffs. Another time someone tried to add money to a card that would not go into our computer. We discovered the card was three cards pieced together. We caught the scam and kept the card-we had to call supervision who took the card and yes, the guy jumped when we called the cops who never showed.
But, if he was tying to add money onto a card what would be the purpose of using three cards pieced together. How does this work as a scam?
He thought he could hide using someone's school pass.
No cabn do-- the computer tells s what kind of card they give us.
When I became a motorman about 19 years ago, when it was necessary to cut out a motor, we were taught to cut out 1 thru 8, GS & CB+. A few years later, we were reinstructed to leave the CB+ in. Then I noticed a GE vs. Westinghouse problem: when the operating car was a Westinghouse, the car sometimes would take power with the CB+ in while all the other circuit breakers were cut out. According to my car inspector uncle, what should happen is RTO senior supervision should have told us to cut out the CB+ on the Westinghouse cars only, and leave the CB+ in on the GE's. So solving one problem on the GE's now became a problem for the Westinghouse! One day while operating a D train from then Bronx, 135 St. tower frantically called me and Command Center informing us that I had flames shooting out of the undercarriage of the last car (R42 which were all Westinghouse before GOH). I had to come in against the wall at 125 because we had an A train on the express being prepared to move north on second car operation due to P wire failure! I made my way back to the last car , most all passengers made their way up to the mezzanine due to the smoke in the station, and I found that motor already cut out. Naturally, the fire stopped once the car was no longer taking power and the smoke cleared, and I took the train to A6 at 135 St., where an RCI from an emergency truck did the quick disconnect method thence I took the train to Concourse Yard. When I got to the yard, I looked in where the grids were, everything was charcoal back as far as my eye could see. It is very easy to second guess, but I doubt if this would have happened if we were instructed to cut out the CB+ on the Westinghouse cars.
Here we go again with more technical stuff. Westinghouse cars normally generate around 40 Amps in coast. It can, however, run up to 140 amps. Of course, in braking the currents can run as high as 400 amps. If the propulsion control on a car fails, the car is usually set up in a coasting configuration. As it's pulled along, it continuallt generates the coast current. When the current exceeds the 140 Amp limit, the logic energizes a contactor known as the J/BDC. The BDC stands for Build Down Contactor, which will shunt the coast current to zero to control it. The trouble begins when the J/BDC does not do its' job. The coasting current continues to build as the car is pulled along at 40 MPH. The grids which are designed to handle 400 amps for 20-30 seconds, start handling 800 amps or more for several minutes. You don't know it until you get a report of Smoke Issuing and you find the molten grids melting under the car.
Unfortunately, this will happen with the CB+ on or off if the J/BDC or the JMR (Controls the J/BDC) or the FFR (Field Forcing Relay) have failed. As long as the dynamic loop is in tact and the car is moving, this will be the result. The only sure way to prevent this is by breaking the Dynamic Current loop, by taking the Quick Disconnects down.
This Westinghouse propulsion system problem is not unique to the TA. Path which is 100% Westinghouse has the same trouble. They have already had limited success with some J/BDC modifications. The TA is taking the difinative step and is replacing the current Westinghouse Propulsion system on 1,550 cars (R-68, R-68A and R-62A) with the Westinghouse E-Cam controller (over the next two years).
Steve, Actually this tech stuff is highly interesting to me(and I hope others). Thanks for taking the time to elucidate. f
I find it interesting too but am understandiding maybe 60% but I hope to get better. Thanks Steve
I,for one, find the tech stuff interesting and educational;I also appreciate your use of plain english.
Re: PATH cars;PA types use a single lever type switch to cut out the traction motors as opposed to shutting off a series of circuit breakers as is done on NYCT cars. There were a number of "hot grid" incidents like the ones you describe that were greatly reduced after PATH CED issued a directive requiring that the Dynamic Brake circuit breaker (a separate 37V breaker on the panel board) also be cut out when cutting out the traction motors.
Until reading your post,I thought that PATH's Dynamic Brake and NYCT's #5 breaker were identical in function.Evidently,they're not. Is there some difference in how the dynamic brake is wired or controlled?
Thanks in advance.
As far as I know, there is no difference. Unfortunately, the #5 breaker only disables the car involved from seeing the energized dynamic brake wire. In order to prevent a hot grid incident of the type I described, the Hi Voltage loops from both trucks must be broken. The surest way of doing this is to drop the quick disconnects.
Unfortunately, the difference between cutting out controls and cutting out motors makes the difference here. Cutting out the motors is, as Steve points out, breaking the dynamic brake loop. Cutting out the controls prevents the car from taking power, or disabling the whole train but leaves the motor circuit intact. In Boston the standard method is a seven point drum switch which breaks the control circuits on the car away from the train line and usually another drum switch which open the motor circuit. Both are opened when a car goes disabled.
Being in the museum biz, Gerry & I are familiar with main
circuit (aka motor circuit, aka hi-voltage) cutouts. On
'K' controllers you have the nice little knife switches with
insulated (you hope) wooden handles inside the controller
that let you cut out the bad motor (or pair of motors for 4-motor
cars). On power-operated control equipment, there's often a
box under the car with a rotating lever marked 0 1 2 3: 0 all
motors in 1: cut out motor (pair )#1 2: cut out motor (pair) #2
3: cut out everything. An interlock with the switch group
prevents the car from entering parallel if a motor is cut out.
Control-circuit cutouts were favored because they could be exercised
from above board. Some equipment carried both. To the best
of my knowledge, no NYCTS car had motor circuit cutout switches.
Evidently Boston uses them, and so does Chicago. Gerry: where is
the motor circuit cutout?
Steve...I thought about what I said with the reverser and I think
it will work, assuming the failed car's group switch logic is
in such a state that it will throw its reverser on command.
I'm not that familiar with WH CAM, and I can't find my diagrams
on it. I'm not sure I understand why removing CB+ doesn't break
the dynamic loop. On GE SCM, P1, P2, B1 and B2 all have to be
in to create this circuit. Remove CB+ and those contactors lose
their energization. What's the story with CAM? Are those circuits
being made up via the cam switches themselves?
Jeff:
Both Boston and Chicago developed their control methodology from the MU PCC car which had a Loop Cut Out drum to prevent towing with the motors reversed. I know the 1951 East Boston Cars had a similar device.
In the old two motor arrangements prior to 1940, a motor cut out wasn't needed since the control circuits were the only means of creating a parallel circuit capable of regeneration. The more modern four motor circuits do not have an 'off' position - the cam controllers set up either a series power circuit, a parallel power circuit or a dynamic brake loop (which is the default). Opening either leg of the loop is all that is needed to prevent current flow. I am not sure whether there are loop cutouts on the newer Boston Equipment. Next time I ride the present equipment I will look for the telltale LCO stencil.
Actually I was thinking more along the lines of the motor circuit
cutouts on older equipment, like the Chicago North Shore cars and
4000 series.
Gerry is in the museum biz too, so he knows what happens when you
throw the reverser on a K35 controller while the car is moving fast!
In fact, this practice was relied on by trolley motormen as an
emergency stop (oooops, sorry, blew all the motors) and when the PCC
was introduced with the motors permanently in series, they had to
put in a little "bonus": when you center the reverse lever, it sets
up the figure-8 brake loop. Don't tow a car like that! Of course,
on the PCC, they were pretty serious about emergency stop: you
could plug the reverser, push the brake pedal to the floor where
it latches in the emergency position, giving you full tread and
track brakes too, and then run like hell to the other end of the car!
Jeff:
The reverser on the Boston MU cars doesnt have a bucking position. It is air operated and either forward or reverse. The master reverser just sets up the control circuits, the car is set up to be a TK (second or third car) with the handle centered.
Sounds like the Boston 7 point switch is comparable to the PATH motor cut out switch. Placing the switch to OFF on a PA car results in an exhaust of air and a short humming sound from the control package as if the pilot motor were recycling;this leads me to think that use of this switch disables the control group rather than simply cutting power to the motors themselves.
It's becoming clearer....Thank You,Gentlemen!
Since Jamaica Shop only has GE cars, I don't have a set of Westinghouse prints home to explain "Why" in the detail that some have asked for but I will try to get that info tonight. But fur Jeff and Gerry, let me try to explain what usually happens. My favorite example is:
A northbound D train leaves 59th, heading for 125th St. Under normal conditions, a train will coast for 5 of the 7 minute trip. During those 5 minutes, in the case of a failure, the coast current continues to build. The J/BDC should pull in at 140 amps to shunt that current down to almost zero. If it doesn't, the grids in the braking loop (which will handle 400 amps for 20-30 seconds) begin to overheat & melt. Cutting out the motors irrelavent because the train crew is unaware that this is going on until it's too late. The controller may, otherwise sequence properly or it may not.
Since Jamaica Shop only has GE cars, I don't have a set of Westinghouse prints home to explain "Why" in the detail that some have asked for but I will try to get that info tonight. But fur Jeff and Gerry, let me try to explain what usually happens. My favorite example is:
A northbound D train leaves 59th, heading for 125th St. Under normal conditions, a train will coast for 5 of the 7 minute trip. During those 5 minutes, in the case of a failure, the coast current continues to build. The J/BDC should pull in at 140 amps to shunt that current down to almost zero. If it doesn't, the grids in the braking loop (which will handle 400 amps for 20-30 seconds) begin to overheat & melt. Cutting out the motors irrelavent because the train crew is unaware that this is going on until it's too late. The controller may, otherwise sequence properly or it may not.
Unless PATH has made some major modifications in the last year, I don't believe that the Dynamic Brake Loop can be broken via a switch.
Steve....what causes J/BDC to hang up so frequently? Aren't
the fields fully shunted when the group is in coast/spotting?
Hmmm, what do you think about this: put the reverse key in
reverse, apply brake, take a nip of power to throw the reversers
under the cars, then cut-out the b/o car. Will any dynamic current
be generated if the reverser is the other way? Hmmm...I've gotta
think about that one.
There are several reasons that the J/BDC won't pull in. Mechanically, the spring breaks, there are 2 rivets prone to failure, or the contactor armature sometimes breaks. In addition, the JMR (relay) is in series with the J/BDC coil as is one of the fingers of the FFR (which is particularly vulnerable to breaking). The J/BDC is so critical that .005" of wear on the tips can cause it not to make up. The tips MUST be replaced every 40,000 miles.
I doubt that anything you sugested will work for 2 reasons:
First, the propulsion circuit has already failed or this would not occur.
Second, you usually don't know it's happening until it's too late.
One of the problems is that the fault light doesn't come on. The Brake Overload relay on the R-68s, for example, is set at 1,450 Amps. It was feared that setting it lower would cause false trips on spikes. If the BOR doesn't trip, the yellow light will never come on. Westinghouse proposed a thermal detect system that would open the Hi-V loop. We've opted to go with the E-cam because it's simply too reliable not to.
I hope you have some where to put the thing. I can put you in touch with the trucking company that moved 6398, It cost almost $6000 bucks to go from 207th St. to Kingston NY. Then there are the arrangements to move the car within the subway system first! If we didn't have some very powerful help from people in high places, I doubt it could have been done.
What about parts? The technical know-how? So many questions, if your'e really interested how about voulenteering at the Trolley Museum of New York? You can help restore an R4 or an R16, the Lo-V or the Q car. Maybe operate, after you become qualified. E-mail me for more details.
I saw a "door closing on a rider" situation an the A the other day. The rider began cursing and banging on the Motormans door. The cops were there at the next stop (Hoyt Sch.) to remove the passenger, however my question is this... What can and can't a conductor\motorman do. Someone once told me, if nessecary the conductor can put the train "Out of service" and require everyone to get off for any reason he he sees fit.
Thats true only if your delaying service or being DISARDORLY.Or
doing anything your not suppose to do. The guy who was banged on the motorman cab curseing is considered being DISARDORLY and Police should
by called to the train by the train crew
sorry cOnductors, not cunductors
What lines are the BMT/IND R38 Subway cars presently being used on, and what is the best location to get photos of the tops of these cars.
R-38's are on the A line. There are a few on the C line also.
I assume you are looking to model them. Here's what you do: Go to the UTICA AVENUE IND station and go up on one of the crossovers. You're bound to see one either on the "A" or "C" lines in a matter of minutes. Then just point your camera down at the top of the train and you're all set. You will get an angled shot here. Best time is AM Rush hour, between 8 and 9 AM. While you're there, check out the recent station renovations and the mosaics in the exit ramps. (Photos coming to Line-by-line/Station-by-Station soon!). If that doesn't work out, go out to Howard Beach Station and do the same thing from the window in the crossover. The "C" doesn't run there, just the "A", so you may have to wait until an R38 shows up.
Wayne
Here's another spot to photograph the tops of R-38's: If you happen to be upton, get off at 190th St and the Mezzanine is right over top of the trackway. decent angle shot there also
Gonzo
Did R-27s ran on the B line?
Hey Joseph why don't u check www.nycsubway.org and go to Illustrated Subway Cars Roster so u can find out yourself. I took a R27/30 when i was a young kid and R27/30 run on M,BB,QJ,NX,QB in the early 60s to 70s.
The R27s ran on the B line off-and on since the Chrystie Street link opened in 1967. In 1986-87, the R27s were displaced off of the R line and many of them were sent out to the J/L/M lines to replace the remaining R16 fleet and to the C line to replace the non GOH r10s while a small part of the fleet was used on the Franklin SAhuttle and the temporary 6th Ave shuttle. A subfleet of non-redbird r27s was regularly assinged to the M line and based in Coney Island. While the R40 slants were being overhauled in 1987-88 the non-redbird R27s were used on the B on a part time basis which ran via Broadway to Astoria. I don't think the non-redbirds were used on the 168th St-34th/6th Ave leg. When the rebuilt R40s appeared in 1988, the non-redbirds were put out to pasture.
You had just a smidgen of R-27's runnin the 168th leg of the B line very briefly say like 4-6 mo at the max and only 1 train of them out of many. I also recall them being pressed into 8th Ave K service whenever the B deadheaded up there after a final run from Coney Island
In the early 60's my friends Bobby Kouns, Bobby O'brien, and i would go over to the old trolley barn and play,mostly on the 2nd floor trolley car used to train motormen, has anyone taken photos or movies of this long gone structure ? as the Fresh Pond train yard is still there and being used, a new bus garage was built in place of the trolley barn photos must exist....countless fans have taken photos of the gate cars either in the yard or at the Fresh Pond station.....i'd like to get photos of this old building so i could build one for my layout........ Thanks,Karl
A picture of the street level Fresh Pond Station recently ran in the Queens Chronicle newspaper. They can be reached at: QChron@aol.com.
Or you could try: Icon Archives, PO Box 965, Rockville Centre, NY 11571. They have a catalog of pictures going back 50 to 75 years of different areas of Queens County.
gerry
Does the Hollywood loan R27 to make movie call "Money Train"?
This the Hollywood load R27 to make movie call "Money Train"?
I think I can make out what you're trying to say; correct me if I'm wrong. The cars used in Money Train do indeed appear to be R-27/30s. Since the movie came out after the Redbird R-30s were retired, my guess is that the producers successfully bid on a number of these cars. None of the scenes in which they appear were actually filmed in the subway; a 4000-foot long subway set was built for that purpose, complete with three or four local stations. The only bona fide subway stations in the film are Union Square (disguised as Wall St.) and 33rd St. I'm surprised they didn't use Hoyt-Schermerhorn.
The actual modified IRT R-22/26(?) customized by the Coney shops as the "Money Train" was infact on display at the Transit Museum only briefly because of the coincidental timing of a token booth torching incident.
If I recall correctly, the token booth clerk was badly burned by a bunch of malcontents. Because "Money Train" was currently in theatres at the time the usual political reactions resulted in the movie getting blamed for giving the delinquents there torching "idea". Oddly, it was revealed later during court testimony, that in fact the youths never even saw the movie! However, because the movie had scenes of token booth torchings -- in the public's mind -- "Money Train" was "guilty" and anything associated with the movie got slamed. In this regard, the Transit Museum pulled the "Money Train" car from it's exhibit almost immediately after the torching incident.
I last saw the car it sitting outside in the CI yards among some maintenance equipment. I wonder if NYCT will ever reinstall it into the TA exhibit, or just auction it off at some point?
"If I recall correctly, the token booth clerk was badly burned by a bunch of malcontents. Because "Money Train" was currently in theatres at the time the usual political reactions resulted in the movie getting blamed for giving the delinquents there torching 'idea'. Oddly, it was revealed later during court testimony, that in fact the youths never even saw the movie!"
And moreover, if I recall correctly, the movie included the torching scene because a similar torching of a token booth had occurred in real life months or even years before the movie script was written. In other words, life didn't imitate art because the "art" itself (and I use that term very loosely in reference to "Money Train") was just an imitation of life!
Incidentally, I believe that it was the earlier, pre-movie, torching that resulted in the installation of smoke detectors in all token booths, which *then* resulted in many nicotine-addicted token vendors bringing cups to work to place over the detector so they could smoke in their booth!
That torching that you refered to occured more than once, most notably at the Intervale Ave stop on the 2/5, where the result was the complete destruction of the station facilities. Other stations where this has occured, aside from the incident that was connected to the movie, were at the Halsey St station on the J and the Halsey St station on the L.
-Hank
i remember those r10 cars well no p.a. system and the conducter had to be in pretty decent shape to climb in between the car to open and close the passenger doors.. dont know if its in the job description now a days....
I think towards the end of their lives they tried to retrofit the R10 with PA systems. I remember seeing these little square boxes on the car ceilings (in the crown portion). They didn't always work. I often wondered whether the operator announced the stations or the conductor did it from his perch. Maybe Mr.Padron or someone else knowledgeable about the finer points of R10-ology could answer this.
Wayne
The PA box was inside the motormans cab. Since it is the conductors' job to make station announcements, all announcements had to be made while the train was in motion. As noisy as the R10's were, even if the PA was working, announcements would be difficult to hear.
I thought I remember seeing the conductor go into the motorman's cab to make announcements. And I noticed that the cab near the conductors' position was usually open.
The r-10 had PA's as early as the early 80's at the very least. The conductors made their announcements while the train was in motion like if you could hear the announcements over that loud noise.
I don't think you'll find agility in the job description nowadays. The R-10s were the last cars to be equipped with air-operated doors, which are now a thing of the past. I used to enjoy watching the conductors work the trigger boxes, though.
Theres talk at Van Courtlandt Park of spit service next weekend.
Some No. 1 crews are going to Lenox Term. Whats going on?
I can't find out nothing!
There is a major weekend GO coming for Feb 13-14. #1 will be shut down from 96-137.
Does R-38s run on the E, F, G and R lines?
"Hey Joseph why don't u check www.nycsubway.org and go to Illustrated Subway Cars Roster so u can find out yourself. I took a R27/30 when i was a young kid and R27/30 run on M,BB,QJ,NX,QB in the early 60s to 70s."
As MANY people have already told you, check out the rest of this site.
You are starting to get on everybody's nerves, so take the advice of many. This site has much information, it's not just SubTalk.
no they do not.the R-38s operate on the A and C lines and are maintained by the 207th street shops in uptown manhattan.the R-32s operate on the E,G and R lines.they do not operate on the F line.R-32s that are maintained by the Pitkin shops are sometimes mixed with the R-38s on the A and C lines.hope this helps...
The R-38s were originally assigned to the E and F lines when they first appeared in 1966. They did see service on the predecessors of both the G and R; namely, the GG and RR.
Today, they hold down the fort on the A and C lines.
Tonight I actually rode on a mixed consist of 6 R-38's and 4 R-32's on the uptown 'A' train.
Were they the R32-GE or just everyday R32 I wonder...You can tell the R32-GE right away, they look exactly like R38 inside (backlit advertising signs, curly bars etc.)
I have seen mixed everyday R32 with R38 on the "C" but only R32-GE and R38 on the "A".
Wayne
I've seen real R-32 with R-38 on the A before. Infact, I rode in a total R-32 A around October, 1998.
I've seen an A trsin of R-38's with a pair of R-32 MK mixed in.
And I rode on an A train last October with a reversed consist: 8 R-32s plus a pair of R-38s.
And we saw R32-GE #3936-3937 stuck in the middle of a bunch of R38s on the "A" today. These eight oddbals are gypsies, for sure.
Wayne
Yes, I have seen full-consist MK R32's on the "A" - at least four different trains of them. We'll see even more once they beef up "A" service this spring. There are only eight R32-GE in revenue service - two of them are up at 207th Street where they are serving out their years as parts cars.
Wayne
If anyone out there happens to have the new webpage address for The New Electric Railway Magazine, please post it on subtalk.
I greatly appreciate it.
Sincerely,
MIchael
As far as I know both the Magazine and website may be defunct. The editor, Richard Kunz passed away suddenly on November 6. A subsequent e-mail from one of the staffers stated that a search was being made for a new editor. The website was active until January, I have sent a letter to CityRail, Ltd in late January, but no reply has been received to date. The general scuttlebutt seems to be that we have seen our last issue of TNERJ. I hope not, the loss would be great.
Unfortunately, the magazine has been "on the proverbial shoestring" since the Free Congress Foundation cut it loose. Without Richard's hand on the controller, I fear the worst.
I received my latest issue - issue 38 - within the last week or so, so I suspect that (to paraphrase Mark Twain) reports of their death are greatly exaggerated. Haven't had a chance to even open the cover, though, so maybe there's more information inside. I'll look tonight and respond tomorrow if there's anything significant to report.
My understanding is that with the passing of the publisher Richard Kunz, The New Electric Railway Journal (TNERJ) and its electronic edition are no more.
Julian Wolinsky, who had been one of TNERJ's main contributors, is spinning up a new on-line rail zine. Info is available from:
JW Media Consultants
9903 Santa Monica Blvd.
Suite 417
Beverly Hills, CA 90212
jwolinsky@mediaone.net
I would like you to please post on the subtalk the future express bus readings for X21,X22 & X23 with this type of format, here's an example:
X15:ELTINGVILLE
RICHMOND AV
via AR KILL RD
Please be advised that I don't give out my e-mail address.
Sincerely,
John
<>
Whats' up with these routes?
They don't exist, and according to the TA, aren't even planned. The Staten Island Advance ran an article last Wednesday or Thursday about it. The chastize Boro President Molinari for supporting franchise opererations on SI rather than expansion of TA service. And John, if you don't give out your email address, no one can send you what you want.
-Hank
I took a Conductor test 6 years ago and i never got a letter that i pass the test. So any way is there will be a conductor test coming up?
How come the www.nycsubway.org doesn't have the subway yards map of 240st yard #1, Canarsie yard "L", Corona Yard #7, Unionport Yard #5, Lenox yard #3, Livonia Yard #3 and #4, and Pitkin Yard "A" and "C"?
I know this site has quite a few yard maps. But is you can't find what you are looking for I would suggest getting a copy of Peter Doughertys "TRACKS OF THE NYC SUBWAY' 2nd edition. In the rear of this fine publication are all the yard maps for the system. If there is enough interest Peter says he would publish a separate yard maps book. You can access his web site through here.
Thanks for the kind words, Ron; greatly appreciated. Just FYI, the yard maps there are accurate as of about a year ago; if you know of any discrepancies, I'd really like to know.
Cheers,
Peter Dougherty
Publisher
Tracks of the New York City Subway book
Posted by R62 LILMAN on Sat Feb 6 22:53:19 1999
[quote]
How come the www.nycsubway.org doesn't have the subway yards map of 240st yard #1, Canarsie yard "L", Corona Yard
#7, Unionport Yard #5, Lenox yard #3, Livonia Yard #3 and #4, and Pitkin Yard "A" and "C"?
[unquote]
Because, at the time I was posting the old yard maps two years ago I didn't *have* those ones to post.
I only received good, accurate and printable maps within the last six months, and they are now all printed in my book (check out the URL below). *IF* I get time, I'll post these to the web within the next few weeks. The ones on the web site now are about 25 years old, and obviously a bit out of date , but they will at least give you a good idea of how the yard's laid out.
Cheers,
Peter Dougherty
Publisher
Tracks of the New York City Subway book
Hey Peter I am enjoy reading your "Revised Edition of Tracks of the New York City subway. I bought the book last year and the book is really great because I been a subway fan since 4 years old and would love to collect every subway cars & layout. Soon i will buy your Second Edition with Subway Yards Map. Well im crazy about subway cars and in the future hope to work with MTA. I been thinking about taking picture of subway cars and collect them into wedsite or book in the future.
To R62A
Please, by all means, pick up a copy of the 2nd Edition. If you loved the revised, you'll go nuts over this one. They're not yet in wide circulation, but if you want a 2nd Ed. now, just click on the link/image below and go from there.
Cheers,
Peter Dougherty
Publisher
Tracks of the New York City Subway book
I have recently purchased a copy of Peter Dougherty's "Tracks of the New York City Subway" and find it very complete, including extensive maps of each of the system's storage yards, particularly those which you list.
I too was particularly interested in the Corona yard for the Flushing #7 line. Even though I lived only a few blocks from the site, I never got the chance to tour the facilities. "Tracks" shows the facility to be much more extensive than I ever knew.
Mr. Dougherty has done a commendable job of explaining the NYCTA to those of us who rode the lines every day but never paid much attention to how they worked or what their history was.
Posted by Richard Kepko on Sun Feb 7
[quote]
Mr. Dougherty has done a commendable job of explaining the NYCTA to those of us who rode the lines every day but never
paid much attention to how they worked or what their history was.
[unquote]
Richard, your cheque's in the mail .
Cheers,
Peter Dougherty
Publisher
Tracks of the New York City Subway book
I also wish to commend Peter Dougherty on an excellent second edition of his Tracks of the New York City Subway. I also have his previous tracks books. I also like the system's storage yards. I also particularly like the #4 yards and the D trains yards since i am a ten minute walk away from these two yards.
Keep up the good work Pete and much continued success in future books of the Tracks of the New York City Subway.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Posted by Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
I also wish to commend Peter Dougherty on an excellent second edition.
Charlie, your cheque is also in the mail .
Thanks for the kind words.
Cheers,
Peter Dougherty
Publisher
Tracks of the New York City Subway book
Hey Dave:
Do you get a fee for all this great advestising! (Pay those ISP bills) :)
Haven't seen the latest edition of the book yet but what I've seen - I like!
Can anyone advise ...
How and where I can obtain an NYCTA subway conductor's blue hat
(size 7 3/8) and a jacket?
Thanks,
J. L.
Become a subway conductor!
Going southbound on the #1 train (local track) at 42St there is a signal labeled WD? Its all by itself and low to the track. What does it stand for? Also, the other day we took a diversion at 42St onto the express track and this signal was flashing green as the operator diverted onto the express track.
WD stands for Wheel Detector. It is an enforced speed control for trains approaching a diverging route. When the tracks are set for a diverging route, the Wheel Detector insures that the train enters the switch an the proper speed. When set for the 'normal' route, the WD is not illuminated.
There is an excellent piece on these signals on the MTA BBS. There is a link on this site. If you do not have word, Microsoft has a downloadable MS word viewer. There is also a powerpoint and excel viewer to download.
If you have Microsoft works the works homesite also has an enhancement that will let you read word files from within works.
Most WD(Wheel Detector) signals flash a very bright white light. Are you sure the one you saw was flashing green?
Yes it was green and since I ride the #1 every Thursday and Friday it appears that the signal is a new one. Only several weeks ago it was wrapped in plastic and all the structure surrounding it looks pretty new. You can see it from the platform southern edge local side. Are these signals being installed in new locations due to the Union Square crash?
There being installed to control the speed of trains while crossing switches. From the setups I have seen I don't think wheel detectors would have helped at union square. I could be wrong, but it looks as though the trip device is at most 50 feet from the switch. It does not appear that the WD is used to control the speed of trains appraching the switch, but while crossing the switch. If I'm wrong someone please clarify this.
I have yet to see the Wheel Detector in operation but my understanding of its' operation is that it mandates sequencial speed reductions an each of several signals. If the train is exceeding the posted speed at any of the intermediate points, the train will be tripped. Any of our signal people able to confirm this?
All I can say is that before I left the No. 6 Line. They put up the wheel detectors up at Parkchestor. The posted speed was 15 MPH. Most of the trains triped going over 10 MPH. So i just went 5 MPH TO BE SAFE. Besides the light was blinking witch tells me to slow down. Ofcause I was bound for Pelham Bay and this did back up the Parchestor relays. I found out alot of other motorman were going 5 MPH so then they tryed puting motor Instructor there to speed up the process by telling us if we trip just charge up and go. Witch i beleve is a violation of the rule book because what if I triped by no foult of the WD. Then i'm in trouble.
Also he told me also not to call Control Center if i triped?
So i beleve he gave me an invaid order.
Some Motor Instructor who says: Trip, Charge, & Go! LOL. He has no business being a Motor Instructor! Plus, according to the wheel detector memo of operation, if a motoman goes BIE due to a WD activation, the tower has to activate a lever/button to drive the stop arm down. So if you "Trip, Charge & Go", you will get tripped again. The safest way to navigate a wheel detector is, as you say, 5 MPH. If EVERYBODY does it that way, what can the TA do in the way of penalizing the motormen?
Your not the first one to say that Motor Instructor shouldn't be in that position and probably not the last.
When I was on the road, back in the 80s, the Motor Instructors Had to know the equipment . When a train layed down, they could usually move it. Today the title is not the only thing that has changed. A very large number of TSSs do not know the equipment, can not sectionalize a train when necessary (especially R-44/R-46), and some can't even cut out a door properly. It's a shame that the focus on the TSS job has changed. Unfortunately, the RCI job has also changed. The bottom line is trains laying longer for relatively simple problems........
Yes I know what you mean. Theres only 7 real Motor Instructors I respect on the whole IRT and most work the East Side and only 2 on the west side witch is a real shame. The rest are just TSS.
I am, unlike some of the people posting here, an amateur, not a trainsit employee. But my opion, for what its' worth is that this WD signal system results from excess caution by management, the system seemed to work just fine 90 years without it! From what I can tell (could some transit employees confirm this, please), is that all of this excess caution started after the guy operating the J train over the Williamsburgh Bridge rear-ended the other train after he fell asleep. After that time, an awful lot of GT signals began appearing all over the place (ex: no. 1 line between Dyckman & 207th, between 168th and 157th, , no 4/5 uptown between 33rd and Grand Central), and also, these WDs. I have noticed that WDs with 10 or 15 mile signs exist even in relatively fast sections, but are usually not active. Could someone give me a run-down on when they get used (maybe workmen in the tunnel?), and what falshing vs. steady indicates?
OK good questions. First this Idea with Wheel Detectors started with the Result of Robert Ray at 14 ST on the No.4 train but didn't start putting them in place after the Williamsburg Bridge Incident. OK flashing and steady white WD signal.
Flashing tells you to Slowdown and if you don't you trip.
Steady tells you your ok and going the right speed
The idea is for the WD be set up for diverging routes only. Contradiction: Bergen St. You have to come in under WD control for straight track. Leaving the station, the F will diverge and curiously enough, they end before the whole train gets onto the lower level track. It defeats the purpose. Probably, they are always on at Bergen St. because it is a steep grade coming in to the station and the TA fears that if a motorman comes in too fast, not only would he run the station stop marker, but also run the interlocking signal & switch.
Wheel detection and additional grade time areas didn't come to be soley because of 14th street union sq 1991 or the Williamsburg bridge incidents. several incidents in addition to the above mentioned signalled the need to control traain speeds. Wheel detection was truly borne out of Robert Ray wrapping a number 4 train around several columns while diverging from #2 track onto #1 track at an excessive speed probably 45-50 mph. Several signals if not one in approach to the home signal SHOULD have been at yellow and the home signal at danger or if not set for a diverging move. Since the derailment a home signal is to set at danger its approach at yellow until the train has come to a stop or where the tower observes the train is at a safe enough speed to crossover. NO KEY by has been introduced to manually key by a red Automatic. train will be brought onto the IJ to complete circuit but the operator must now step on the trip arm and retain in the clear position for train to pass without dumping its air(of course permission from control desk superintendent unless an AK is on the signal)
This particular signal is first seen when entering the 42St about 25 feet into the station, then again at the most southern part of the station upon leaving. When my T/O diverge onto the express tracks about 12 car lengths into the express section there was a little sign that said END WD at which point the T/O increased speed into the 34St station.
If the purpose of the wheel detector is to control speed on approach of a diverging route, Then I wonder why they chose this eloborate measure. I would think it would be much simpler to install timed signals upon approach of a switch. Which would become active when the diverging route was given.
They already use a similar type of signal to allow trains to move up close to the train ahead. (At the moment I can not remember the name of this type of signal) On the 4&5 line southbound between Fulton St. and Bowling Green, if there is no train ahead = all clear signals. If there is a train ahead the signals will be at danger, but they become timed signals and as long as you approach at the right speed they will clear allowing you to get very close to the train in front.
You have to keep in mind that with either one shot or two shot grade time signals it is possible for a Motorman to rap his controller around to full multiple as he cleared the GT signal. If this happens, then the train will accelerate above the GT speed. To achieve enough control to maintain GT speed within reasonable limits without causing overspeed over a crossover then GT signals would have to spaced very close together, in the order of 50 feet. This is impractical considering track relay drop away time and relay pick times. Furthermore, it would not achieve proper speed control.
The Wheel Detector is a hybrid of Cab Signaling and Block Signaling. two sets of wheel detector heads are used to measure train speed via a vital microprocessor. If the train operates within the prescribed limits then it will not be tripped. However, if the train overspeeds greatly above the limits it will be tripped by the train stop (even if the front of the train has passed the train. The Motorman is advised of his speed by the aspect on the WD signal with a lunar white or flashing aspect. This offers continuous speed control unlike like GT signaling will do. The wheel detector came about because of the Union Square wreck of August of 1991.
The WD signals were a reaction to Union Sq, but as someone else
pointed out earlier, they don't solve that exact problem. Isn't the
wheel speed detector right near the points? In the Union Sq case,
the train was believe to have been tripped, but the tripping point
was at the home ball. This was using "DT" timing..i.e. a GT that
is only active on diverging moves...or maybe it was single-shot
diverging timers. Either way, to have afforded full protection,
the approach signal would have to be at least one full speed's
stopping distance in advance of the switch and be set to clear
on time for diverging moves, same thing for the home ball.
I believe this modification was made as well, but in the
process folks realized that there was another "hole" in that
the m/m could clear the DT and wrap it up and still accelerate to
dangerous speeds through the turnout. Thus the big WD. Motormen
hate them because they can never be certain about when they will
trip, and even though everything is supposed to be carefully
calibrated, they report false trips when they believed they were
complying with the speed restrictions. So they've gotten edgy and
will go dead slow even through a WD-10. Now, what we need is some
high-speed turnouts so we can have WD-40 signals :)
Those WD Signals are an absolute waste!!! the wheel detector at pacific street is the worst! being a Queens Extra List motorman i have occasion to cross over at this location on those rare
times i work the N line.even if you proceed thru this area at the posted 10 miles an hour,those stupid white lights start flashing! solution? either take your chances and operate at 10 mph,or operate dead slow.i just crawl into Pacific Street at 5 mph;point on and point off operation.these wheel detectors just slow the railroad down! lunar white time signals placed in the RIGHT locations would have accomplished the same thing! the WD signals placed at Canal Street on the A and C lines are in place but not operational as of this writing.the WD signal at 4th avenue on the F and G lines is also not used.(i believe that this is for when and if F trains begin operating express in Brooklyn once again)this is so F trains can cross over to make the station stop at Bergen Street because there is no lower level.
Amen brother! Slow the trains down, don't go in emergency and put in for the gravy we need to pay the mortgages. (I wanna be an OPTO man)
I'm not there is see the flashing WD signals however, if the programming needs correction to allow for smooth 10mph operation that Blaise Archis of the NYCT needs to give it attention. There is a several mph margin in the wheel detector system.
I posted a message a while back on this subject and grade time signals will NOT solve the overspeeding problems. NYCT does not want to have another Union Square wreck like the one in August of 1991.
sigh...i have an idea for the wheel detector system...rip them out and start over!!! THEY DONT WORK!!! all these things do is make the trains run slower...the WDs at Bergen Street are a total waste!!! and why do the G trains have to enter Bergen Street on the WD anyway? the G train does not cross over there...so why slow down a train that gets a straight lineup? like i said all it does is slow the trains down.leaving Bergen Street i could see having a WD,but not all the way back south of the station.
That WD signal was defenitly not flashing green. I work on the No.1 line. You may have just seen a green signal with the WD not activated.
Because as fur as I know all WD signals flash White. Also I don't even
think it activated yet at Times Square.
Friday there was an emergency on the line and many trains were being turned around at 34St. The signal was flashing when the operator diverted from the local southbound tracks to the express tracks. Whether the signal is white or green is not important but I always ride the first car and it was flashing.
Does anyone know if there was ever a book on the making of our beloved subway cars?
If not, I'd think that with the varied number of types that were built primarily by St. Louis Car, that a tome on their product would certainly be in order.
Short of like a "Making of a subway car" book.
Any thoughts?
Doug aka BMTman
<< Does anyone know if there was ever a book on the making of our beloved subway cars? >>
I believe Andrew Young wrote a book about the St. Louis Car Co. I'm pretty sure I lent my copy to a friend otherwise I'd give you the title and ISBN number.
1. From Horsecars to Streamliners: An Illustrated History of the St. Louis Car Company. By Alan R. Lind. Published 1978 by Transport History Press, Box 201, Park Forest IL 60466.
2. The History of the St. Louis Car Company. By Andrew D. Young and Eugene F. Provenzo, Jr. Published 1978 by Howell-North Books, BO Box 3051, La Jolla CA 92038.
Good luck!
David
The first book you mention, I believe, has a photo of an R-21 or R-22 heading up a 1 train on the front jacket. It has a fairly sizable section on New York's subway cars, which is not surprising when you consider how many cars they built for New York! That book may be out of print now.
St. Louis Car was NYCTA's main provider of rolling stock during the period I consider the "Golden Age" of subway car introductions in my lifetime, 1957-69. The Redbirds, the R-38s and Slant 40s all have their own perosnalities, and are easily distinguishable.
Unfortunately, they also have to take responsibility for the R-44s, which I've suggested should be run on the Eastern Division just to see them fall onto the Williamsburgh Bridge Plaza (If nothing else, this should be done sometime in the future when they have the "Farewell to the R-44s" railfan trip).
I have another idea: do yet another remake of Pelham 1-2-3, this time as a comedy, and use R-44s. When Ryder, or Mr. Blue, approaches the operator and says, "I'm taking your train", the operator replies, "Be my guest. Have fun." Then, when the hijackers demand a ransom, have the desk trainmaster reply, "Screw it - you can keep that whole train. Hell, we'll even throw in the entire fleet of those cars. And if we still had any R-16s left, you could have them, too."
I know, R-44s can't run on the IRT. I also know someone out there is quoting Walter Matthau right now when he said, "You're a sick man, Rico."
These books are available online at www.barnesandnoble.com in their "out of print" section. Hurrah!
1. From Horsecars to Streamliners: An Illustrated History of the St. Louis Car Company. By Alan
R. Lind. Published 1978 by Transport History Press, Box 201, Park Forest IL 60466.
2. The History of the St. Louis Car Company. By Andrew D. Young and Eugene F. Provenzo, Jr.
Published 1978 by Howell-North Books, BO Box 3051, La Jolla CA 92038.
These are available online at www.barnesandnoble.com in their out of print section.
Sorry for the previous post which left out their titles.
"From Horsecars to Streamliners: An Illustrated History of the St. Louis Car Company. By Alan R. Lind. Published 1978 by Transport History Press, Box 201, Park Forest IL 60466."
I thought I saw a pile of this book at the bookstore at the Illinois Railway Museum the last time I was there. Maybe you should check them out at www.irm.org (I don't know their e-mail address, but I'm sure it's on the Web page somewhere) and find out if they have it.
Better yet, if you're ever in the Chicago area, head on out to the Museum. It's about an hour ride from the city, and it's closed in the winter, but it's definitely worth the trip.
Is it just me, or does there seem to be an increase in repetitive posts asking questions (in poor grammer) that were answered in the same thread the day before? Or how about the increase in posts asking questions that are easily answered just by looking around the website? It's getting to be mind numbing to read 12-13 posts where the same question gets repeatedly repeated....
-Hank
Agreed. There seems to be a person, not to mention any names, that posts little facts, like "the r-40 slants run on the N and R lines" and that will be the whole post. Well that is nice info, but for those who don't know already, they can go to the site and find out. Is it me or is this guy (you probably know who I'm talking about) getting very annoying in the types of messages that he posts?
I posted that I think that this person is a kid. If he isn't, then I suspect he's "one of those......" Dave and several others have gently hinted that all of the comments/questions are answerable elsewhere on the site. No result/comprehension. Best advice: Ignore the posts. Don't reply. I we all do that, maybe he will go away. (Doubtful, but we can try).
I've asked DUMB questions here before, so I guess this may help our "wayward friend"
-A single post to this person(I won't name names but any regular certainly knows who this is) telling them that this is a LARGE site compared to others on the same topic, in fact probably the biggest and certainly the best.
-Though this person could do this themselves, based on the types of posts they put up, mention a particular area of this site they may find useful i.e. Subway Car Roster, Subway FAQ's, etc
-And finally, if they must ask 60 questions about the same topic(when and if they discuss one)to put it all in ONE OR TWO POSTS instead of the, um, multitudinous posts with entire scrolls having this person's name 20 or 25 times.
Perhaps we should also recognize that this person maybe a new railfan and at least help him out a bit.
If all concerned put a little forward, we could all move ahead with a less cluttered message board and one more railfan.
Like they say in the court dramas "Asked and answered". That's been tried in earlier post replies. Zip results. I think he's "one of those...." so gentle hints don't work. Maybe he'll mature (or find some other venue to bother), but that's doubtful.
We've had to deal with this type at BSM, and the results were as described except that he won't go away (the visits ARE getting farther apart) and he bugs the other transit provider almost as much.
Maybe this has been answered, and I apologize if this is repetitive but I didn't see any posting on it: where will L, M, J and Z trains receive maintainance when the WillyB shuts down? Can they get all the maintenance they need where they directly connect to yards? Or will the severed link via Nassau St. to the Coney Island prevent certain kinds of maintenance?
Mike Rothenberg
Most can probably be done right at ENY. If cars ever need to be done in Coney Island or somewhere, they can be hauled through the Linden yard, and over the LIRR Bar Ridge branch to the BMT Southern div. This is what was done 11 years ago when the bridge was closed.
Not only that, but ENYD shops have since been rebuilt, and functions not being able to be done there 11 years ago can be performed there today.
Eric B: if and when you here that cars are going to be moved over the Bay Ridge LIRR tracks -- please by all means alert all concerned as this would be an excellent photo op along that right-of-way.
Thanks, Doug aka BMTman
HEY!! they are taking down the last 3rd ave station. This week walking to the Gunhill Rd station I notice worker on the old 3rd ave platform breaking up the wooded platform and breaking up the waiting rooms. By next week it will be all gone.(Spoke to a worker) Also they seal up the stair going from the street level to the 3rd ave platform and look like they may do the same for the upper Mezz area.
This was Notice on friday, time @500
Life will not be the same. This is wher my Old man took me for my first subway ride when I was 5 years old.(Been hooked like a crack head from that day on) seam like yesterday. I'm now 36
(Yes I'm shouting)
Jr: It funny that you should mention that. I took(or rather taken) on my first ride at 149 St on the southbound.
Best Wishes,Redbird
HEY!! they are taking down the last 3rd ave station. This week walking to the Gunhill Rd station I notice worker on the old 3rd ave platform breaking up the wooded platform and breaking up the waiting rooms. By next week it will be all gone.(Spoke to a worker) Also they seal up the stair going from the street level to the 3rd ave platform and look like they may do the same for the upper Mezz area.
This was Notice on friday, time @500
Life will not be the same. This is wher my Old man took me for my first subway ride when I was 5 years old.(Been hooked like a crack head from that day on) seam like yesterday. I'm now 36
HURRY GET YOUR LAST PICTURES (Yes I'm shouting)
they are tearing it up and no one arranged for us railfans to go in there beforehand. This is an outrage.
The Federal Transit Administration TEA-21 NEW Start Project Authorizations (see http://www.fta.dot.gov/library/policy/t21nsta.htm , http://www.istea.org/guide/tea21/3030.html , or http://www.apta.com/govt/legis/tea21/t21nsear.htm)
lists under the status of "Authorized for Final Design and Construction" a project for "8th Avenue Subway Connector". Can anybody describe what this project really represents (such as Fulton Street local to WTC local track connection, which is what it I think it is) and where can one find more details on this project?
That hardly seems likely. There is about zero chance of the WTC/Court St. connection being built. I'm not even sure that was the original plan, I think the tunnel from Court St. was to come in north of Chambers St. station. At any rate, they surely will not tear up the basement of the WTC and its shops to run a new subway line through it.
The "connector" could be anything. Probably just a redesigned transfer passage, either at 14th St. to the 'L' or, more likely, at 34th St. to Penn Station.
The stub at Court St. was supposed to be a lead-in for the 2nd Ave. line, with a connection to the dead-end local tracks at WTC, with a stop at South Ferry to boot. It makes one wonder just how valid such a plan would have been. For one thing, the BMT Broadway line cuts right in front of the IND where it suddenly veers over to Trinity Place, and it was already in place when the IND was being built. Of course, back then, the WTC didn't exist. Those WTC tracks would either have to nosedive to dodge the existing IRT and BMT lines, or swerve over and duck beneath the 1/9 line. Besides, as was already mentioned, they'd have to tear up the plaza at the WTC itself, and any station at South Ferry would have to be fairly deep, the way Whitehall St. is.
It might very well be more trouble than it's worth.
What about the proposal for a Eight Avenue Local connection using the original Second System Worth Street provision? (Actually that was what I was thinking about when I composed the original question).
Anyhow with the lack of response to that question, must I assume that none of the SubTalk reader regulars truly knows anything about the Eighth Avenue Subway Connector proposal that is listed amongst some rather big ticket projects in the TEA-21?
The information on the three addresses you listed seemed to all say the same thing.
If it's really that big someone either knows and hasn't responded or is trying to get more information.
I'll keep looking myself....
The recent RPA Metrolink proposal, as published, does contain at least two subway sections that should be very difficult to engineer and build, namely, the Water Street Subway near Whitehall Street and the Atlantic Avenue connection to the existing LIRR near Flatbush Avenue. The Water Street routing requires either very deep tunneling to pass under all of the many existing subway tunnels, or else threading through the maze of tunnels. The Atlantic Avenue connection will require underpinning three different levels of subway (4th Ave IRT trackway [not used], 4 Ave BMT, IRT Flatbush Avenue, and the BMT Brighton line) or else proceeding in a very deep tunnel that will probably require a fairly steep grade to get back up to existing LIRR tracks in the line west of Vanderbilt avenue. I think the 1940-ish Engineering News Record listed the Sixth Avenue subway near 32-33rd street as essentially the most difficult railroading construction ever undertaken on the planet, which is my candidate for the most difficult. What do the subway engineering aficionados have as are other candidate for the title of "Most Difficult Subway Engineering on Earth"?
The construction of the Jubilee Line in London probably is the most difficult job insofar as winding through existing lines and other obstructions. The Athens Metro, now somewhat completed, had similar problems, although the obstructions were unknown artifacts, and existing historic structures had to be both supported and strengthened to withstand vibrations from operating trains. The Los Angeles subway is perhaps also up there in complexity, especially given the high earthquake standards that must be met.
I don't know if this ranks as the most difficult, but certainly sounds like it is one of the more challenging ones: Washington DC Metro's Green Line link between the two existing segments had to dodge an underground river and then tunnel beneath a cemetery. They wound up placing the two tubes one atop the other. If the Washington Post article can be believed (a transcript of it was forwarded to me), the section beneath the Rock Creek Cemetery is 800 feet deep. I wonder if this is not a typo. I never heard of a subway going THIS far down.
If anyone wishes to read the transcript that was forwarded to me, post here or e-mail me and I'll forward it.
Wayne
I though the deepest station on the Metro was only about 250 feet. An 800 foot depth would require a heck of a grade uphill and downhill between stations, and while Rock Creek is a pretty deep gulley (I would guess the cemetary is nearby) I don't remember it being 70 stories deep.
Whoever sent you the transcript probably should have sent the Post's correction notices from the next day's paper.
Yes, agreed. I am taking this depth report with more than a grain (make that a shaker) of salt. I can not in my wildest dreams picture a subway tunnel being 800 feet underground. The cemetery is actually east of the Creek itself, bounded by (clockwise from north) Gallatin Street NW, North Capitol Street, Rock Creek Church Road NW, a property boundary running northwest, and New Hampshire Avenue NW (it has five sides). If you look down the tunnel from the underground end of the Fort Totten station, you can see it drop away pretty quickly. It doesn't look like more than a 10-degree or 15-degree grade. According to my map, the line looks like it could cut across the north end of the cemetery before it curves southwest into New Hampshire Ave NW, if you draw a straight line from Fort Totten. Georgia Ave-Petworth will be at the intersection of NH and GA ave's NW and then there will be a little reverse curve, first right under Park Road then hard left going down 14th. Columbia Heights station s/b about Columbia Road or Irving Street or between the two.
I will be down in DC later this year to investigate this.
Wayne
Boston's original Tremont St. Subway between Park and Government makes for an interesting ride as you manouver around the foundations of several buildings and two cemetaries. For a 'simple' cut and cover job, this section required some engineering effort. There are about 7 curves in five blocks!
The construction of the Stockholm Underground met with a not so few difficulties due to the geography and history of the Stockholm region. Stockholm is situated across a inlet region from the Baltic Sea to Lake Mälaren, spread out along lots of islands, mountain ridges and what once was marshland.
When constructing the 4-track tunnel between the stations of Gamla Stan (the old town) and T-Centralen (Central Station), the tunnel was driven through a huge layer of silt and spoft clay, as well as a medieval rubbish-dump. The solution adopted was to deep-freeze (!) Tegelbacken (the silty region, a downtown area with lots of government offices) by pumping a saline cold-medium in pipes through the ground. When it was frozen solid, foundations could be poured and the tunnel stabilized.
From the late 60:ies and onwards, the cut-and-cover method was replaced with deep rock construction. The Stockholm region rests on some extremely solid rock, and tunneling through this solved most of the messy problems associated with clay and silt. Almost all newer parts are made of deep rock tunnel.
My favorite line is the No.5 line. Because of all the Diffrent Termanals it goes to. In the Bronx you can be sent to Dyre Ave or
E 238 St. where you lay your train up. In Manhattan you go to Bowling Green or may get turned at Brooklyn Bridge and look at the old city hall station. In Brooklyn you can go to Flatbush,Utica,or New Lots. Not to mention you may be rerouted down the Bway-7 Ave line. Now if you have that run where you go Light to Bowling Green and then go
in service Uptown to E 238 ST Then who knows. One day I was put in service at Grand Central and told to make all stops to Bowling Green.
When I got to Bowling Green the Dispatcher told me to go in service at South Ferry. Then made all local stops to 96 ST. Then made all stops to E 241 St.
Inconsistent service patterns to confuse the customers!
Yes you can be very confused rideing the No. 5 Line during Rush Hours.
my favorite and still is the B line(west end) i grew up near the ninth ave sta. in bklyn and always remembered that busy sta. with the culver suttle in operation and the busy 36st yards in the backdrop ..
Yes, but at least our beloved Redbirds still have route AND destination signs up front, (and most 5 trains are made up of Redbirds) so you'll know where the train is headed at a glance - providing it's been properly signed up.
I didn't realize that 5 trains were turned around at Brooklyn Bridge on occasion, but I'll believe it. Just think - the operator gets a view of City Hall station out of it! Cool!
As for my favorite line, that's easy. It's the one immortalized by Duke Ellington, the A line. Thanks to the express dash up CPW, it's still the quickest way to get to Harlem - if your train consists of R-38s. I miss the R-10s, though.
My favorite line is the L.
Do you think they should use the #10 to designate the rush hour #5 train? I have seen #10 signs on R62A equipment, though only between the cars. Perhaps if one sees #10 they wouldn't confuse it with the rush hour #5 express. Ditto for the Pelham diamond #6 - they could use #8, which they also have as a green sign.
Wayne
There has been talk on the Pelham Line to put up No. 8 Signs to
represent the No. 6 Parkchester Local service. But that was talked about long a go but still no No. 8. To do that they have to make Parkchester an all R 62 fleet AND THE Redbirds to Pelham. Ofcouse the No.6 Line supervision probably won't like the idea because the people in the Pelham area will complain about not having an R 62 to ride to Pelham with. About limiting confusing it probably won't work. The riders think the 6 Diamand is a Lexington Exp but get a wake up call when we stop at canal St.
The No. 10 sign on the 5 line. That may be a good sign to use on the New Lots or Utica bound trains. But theres only 8 trains to and from New Lots but it worth a try exept for one Problem. The No. 5 runs redbirds and there is no No. 10 Signs on them. So that will have to wait for the new trains if the TA really did consider that. But right now I am going to enjoy the redbirds.
I think it would be a good idea to designate the 241 St #5's as something else;say #8,also the 42 St Shuttle should be #10. It is confusing to have four routes on the system with the same "S" designation. 42 St, 63 St, Rockaway Park, and Franklin. I know the Franklin is temporarily suspended and the 63 St Shuttle is supposed to end in the spring. The Rockaway Shuttle should use its proper sign"H".
Redbird
Perhaps they should use #0 for the 42nd Street shuttle.
I'm thinking they have #8 reserved for what's now the diamond #6.
Say, have you seen the Purple #11 signs (diamond) yet - I have seen one (on the end of car #1677) and there's also #12 and #13 (they're red for 7th Avenue)
And YES YES YES bring back the "H". And run it to Euclid like they used to, though that might be difficult with "C" traffic in and out.
Wayne
Why don't they just go back to double letters? :)
Bring Back the QT, QB, QJ, RJ, MJ...
Then you couls call the Franklin Shuttle the FS or, to represent the lines it connects, the QA, or the DA, or even the DC.....
The the Times Square Shuttle could be the TS or the GS.....
-Hank :)
I had thought of using either 0 or 8 for the shuttle. I think on the inhouse identification, it is sometimes referred to as the 8.
When the new cars come, hopefully, they'll retain the digital signs, making new route numbers even easier.
And if they do use digital signs up front, hopefully they will be legible and discernable from a distance!!!
I believe the final design has a standard curtain on the front bulkhead. I hope we won't see an introduction of anything similar to the R32/R38 head sign EVER. Talk about a mistake. Unless they can make the sign colored and as large as the standard sign (and keep the glass in front of it clean) it doesn't work well. In fact, I can't stand those 'standard' matrix signs on the buses, because they never clean the glass, which makes them impossible to see during the day, and because the lamps that light them usually fail, and never get replaced, which makes them impossible to see at night. The new matrix signs, with the LEDs as part of the matrix are much better, and very visible from a distance.
-Hank
Hear, Hear! The head end signs on the R32 are SO BAD I can't tell what letter they carry until the train is on top of me - and THEN, if it happens to be a round letter, I often can't tell if it's a "C", "G", "Q" or something else ("O" I DEFINITELY saw once on a "Q" train; it was #3918). What an exercise in futility. The R38 and R32-GE signs are a little bit better - they are larger and the dots are bigger. It's no sweat telling an "A" from a "C".
Wayne
It would help if they replaced the flourescent front(bottom) lighting with the new individual dot LED lighting used on the new orders of buses. It is so much clearer. While they're at it, they could use multi-colored LED's. I've already sent a letter to Car & Equipment making these suggestions.
Does anyone have a complete listing of present and future signs
Thank you
Steve
Does anybody have or knows of somebody that has photos showing the roof of the R38 Subway cars.
Am looking for photos that show the rivet detail and/or seperate panels that make up the roof.
We are producing the R38 Subway cars in HO Scale and would like to make the most accurate models possible, hence the requirement for the roof info.
Will pay what is necessary to get the photos we need.
As I have responded earlier, I will attempt this feat from the Children's Cathedral at Utica Avenue if I am unable to do it at 59th Street-Columbus Circle. I expect to take these pictures on February 11.
Wayne
Does the #6 line terminate at South Ferry or Bowling Green in the 70s?
Yes, at one time when Lexington Ave trains served South Ferry - The #6 was extended from Bklyn Br-Worth St to South Ferry during the late night hours. Other times it was served by the SS or #5.
How many Work Cars ( Formaly Passergers Subway Cars ) in the yards or on the tracks?
An you know that the new Logo with MTA? I hate the new Logo they have now but i like with M logo and before that was TA. Well i like the M logo not MTA i dislike the new Logo and They should bring the M logo back.
Please speak English. And make a point while you're at it. Thank you.
I
Sorry about my previous post error, but Dave, there are some mutant questions lately. And most of them come from people who fail to post an E Mail address. This suggests to me that some posters are going by different names and answering their own questions. Is there any way for you to do some kind of modification in the system so that a message would not post unless an E Mail address was present?
Forget it. My brain cells are clogged because it's late. They'll just put down phony E Mail addresses.
According to this site, this car is at the Coney Island Yard. I have a picture of it as part of October's Nostalgia Train. Yet, I'm positive I saw it this afternoon on local channel 9's showing of Malcolm X, in the opening scenes set in Boston. Anyone know any details of this car and that movie?
Yup, these cars were painted for the Boston Elevated Railway specifically for the movie. There are photos of them at http://www.nycsubway.org/r30trip/coney.html. I think the scenes were filmed here in NY.
-Dave
Well, the movie was filmed here in NY. All 3 units were done over for the movie. Unfortunately, while the cosmetic makeover was completed, the Triplexes weren't mechanically operable. The man who supervises the maintenance of the Museum Cars was away during that time. There was no time for Spike Lee and company to wait for him to return, so filming went on as planned. As it turns out, the cars were pushed by the South Brooklyn Rwy Diesels N1 and N2 over the Myrtle Av El (M) at Wyckoff Av. Interesting, huh? The last time the SBK diesels pushed and pulled the D Types was on a fan trip back in 1975 over the SBK lines near Bush Terminal.
-Constantine
Of course, an accurate Boston El paint job would be solid olive green, well faded with streaks of rust and no lettering except for the car numbers painted on the windows...
D-Type triplex 6019 was filmed Malcolm X, at Wyckoff Ave and Myrtle Ave on M line. Spike Lee Made those movies in New York not Boston.
Have the MTA is planing to hire more Cleaner for trains and buses??? I been waiting almost 7 years now for Cleaner for MTA.
Please don't ask here. Buy the "Chief", the Civil Service Newspaper with the red printing on the top for info on TA exams. After you take the exam, you can check with the NYC Dept. of Personell as to where they are on the list.
Two Market-Frankford M-4 cars have been wrecked at 69th Street yard.Apparently One train of M-4 cars was being tested for brakes and plowed in to the side of another M-4 set. The Cars sides just peeled away like aluminum foil. I think ADTRANZ probably used a poorer quality of stainless steel.Shoot when the ALMOND JOYS derailed and hit the I beam at 30th Street Station the car body side did not peel away it just ripped open from the force of the I beam cutting through it.
How do you know this? Are these cars only visible from inside the yard?
No a good friend of mine in SEPTA management informed me of the accident and got me in to see it. I was not allowed to take pictures but Im still going to try.
Back in 1986, car 2777 was leaving Coney Island Yard on its' maiden trip when it was broad sided by an errant flat car. By 1993, the car was finally repaired and ready to return to service. It does happen.
Actually, it was 2755, not 2777, that was broadsided.
[Back in 1986, car 2777 was leaving Coney Island Yard on its' maiden trip when it was broad sided by an errant flat car. By 1993, the car was finally repaired and ready to return to service. It does happen.]
David
Absolutely correct
The one set of M-4s that were wrecked was 1031-32. I dont know what the other set was. 1032 side was sheered opened in the center of the car below the window with the corrugated fluting peeled back like aluminum foil. I touched the section that was wrecked and you were able to bend the stainless steel. It appears they used a cheaper grade of stainless steel then around the window area.Now I know how ADTRANZ ws able to reduce the weight of the car, epecially since the first production models were significantly over weight.Ah the low bidder what do you expect.
Has there ever been a serious incident involving an ADTranz product
caused by SHODDY WORKMANSHIP?
What the heck is up with this company?
No serious accidents yet, but LOTS of minor bugs, irritations and what-have you. Look at the M-4's: late, not to spec, oversize, weight and so forth. SEPTA got a state-of the-art signal system for the subway-surface otut of the deal. (Better for AdTranz than contract penalties).
Workmanship?? Ask the guys at 69th Street, the North Avenue Light Rail Shop (Baltimore) and on and on.
I saw #818 in the aftermath of the accident. The EXACT SAME THING happened to our beloved #4260 on August 15, 1994 (except it was a concrete wall rather than steel I-beams).
Are the outsides of the M-4 cars like the DC Metro cars (i.e. brushed aluminum that falls apart at any moderate inpact)?
Speaking of AdTranz - didn't they make the cars for the ICE train that derailed in Germany last year?
(DC Metro cars are made by Rohr and Breda)
Wayne
I thought that side weakness was characteristic of all subway cars. Their ability to withstand frontal impacts is far greater than with side impacts.
Yes, any side impact to any subway car can be a fatal blow. But whether the car suffers merely a serious dent and a bent frame (#3669, #8884, #4260) or is shorn open as described above (#5282, #1437) can mean the difference between injury and death for the passenger.
Wayne
remember that lightweight cars which are cheaper to run by and large also are weaker. So its a constant game of trade'offs. R1/9's were more durable but heavy cars like that tear up r.o.w.and torque bridges
Due to the number of door and window openings on the side of the car, significant reinforcement in this area would be difficult. Since structural engineering is not my strong suite, I have this question to pose:
In the incident like the one at 135th St. the car was sheared into two pieces due to the lack of any significant structural members in the side of the car (there were no injuries because the car was empty at the time). Had there been a structural member in the car side, the car might have crushed against the tunnel wall but not split into pieces. Which (splitting or crushing) would likely result in fewer injuries and/or deaths?
That is a very good and valid point you pose, Steve. Combining sidewall crossmembers with a sill and floor that is sturdier would probably result in a car that resembles a BMT Standard in weight and bulk, not what today's energy-conscious engineers have in mind. When #3669 hit the wall back in 1974, it resulted in a dent that intruded about 3-3 1/2 feet into the seating area proper. But when #1440 did essentially the same thing in the Union Square wreck, the two sides wound up almost touching each other. I do believe at least one, maybe two of the fatalities occurred in this car. This also leads me to believe that the floors and sills of R32 cars (and others of their generation) are sturdier than those of more modern 44s/46s/62s/68s. I come to the conclusion that the only way to make a subway car less vulnerable to side-impact carbody penetration and/or splitting is to make it too heavy to be efficient in this day and age, something that just won't fly.
Wayne
Perhaps some of the engineering stats could be had? cornerpost withstand numbers. I am sure I have the wrong terminology but the number expresses the force the corner should withstand before deforming. As a for instance the CB&Q gallery cars apparently were built to a higher figure than other Chgo area bi-level coaches--source Trains Magazine. So a comparison of this number for say R 1/9, R 27/30, 32 and 46 would be interesting particularly if at the same time one looked at gross weight etc.
The sides of the M-4's are corrugated stainless steel.
In the New York Post Monday February 8 page 21, is an article on the flashy new advertising ads mini-billboards which will be installed above 1,100 subway entrances throughtout the city starting Monday April 1.
After you have seen the article, your thoughts as always are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
[In the New York Post Monday February 8 page 21, is an article on the flashy new advertising ads mini-billboards which will be installed above 1,100 subway entrances throughtout the city starting Monday April 1. After you have seen the article, your thoughts as always are most welcome.]
The article isn't in the Post's online edition. Even so, the idea sounds pretty good to me. The TA may not be a profit-motivated private business, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't try to maximize its revenues. And advertising is a useful source.
Subway Q/A-'Q' for Quiz and 'A' for Answer it!:)
1. I make a stop at the same street I run on in the same borough. Who am I?
2. I am not a shuttle, but I only run in one borough. Who am I?
3. I cross the same line once as subway and once as an el. Who am I and who do I cross?
4. I am a major crosstown street, but only have one station "all to myself". Who am I and which station/line am I referring to?
5. I make but 5 stops on an outbound(from Manhattan) trip. Who am I?
Yes, these are trick questions, but the answers are for real and some refer to more than one line! Good luck!
Some of these questions are sort of ambiguous, but hey, I tried anyway.
1: Eastern Parkway, Whitehall Street, Canal Street Lower Platform...
2: There are no lines (other than shuttles) that are in the same borough 24/7. (Could you be thinking the 1/9? Because it's not; even considering the real political Bronx/Manhattan boundary.) The C (on weekends) runs only through Manhattan. But then again, lots of other lines are in a single borough depending on the time of day (R, B, 5, all at night).
3: the 7/Flushing line crossing the Sixth Avenue F line
4: 79th Street
5: Either the L or the Z... unless you're not counting the beginning terminal station as one of the stops, in which case J is the answer.
My answers were....
1.Whitehall St(N/R),Bushwick Ave.(L), BroadSt(J/M/Z), Grand Concourse(4)and Franklin Ave(FS)
2. Weekend C, 5 and 6, Late night B & R
3. The #7 over the 'G'
4. 42nd St/6th Ave opposed to 42nd St-Port Authority BusTerminal, 42nd St-Times Square and 42nd St-Grand Central.
5. The 'L', #7 and 63rd St shuttle.
I read on here somwhere about an new Athens Subway. Anyone have the skinny? How extensive and where it goes, compatable with the one existing line to Pireas, and construciton involving Preservation of existing Archeological sights and discoveries during excavation.
Lord knows that they needed a subway system badly with all the Pollution and traffic prolems.
Has the new subway affected traffic, such as the odd even Licence Plate system they have had in the city center for some time. Or the Electric trolly system which was fairly archaic, although perhaps not by Hellenic standards.
Number of lines? Passengers?
Who has the skinny?
Try this webpage:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/7843/
Here's "the skinny" on the Athens subway, courtesy of http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/7209/EHStory.html
ATHENS SUBWAY FACT SHEET
Information from HSAP Traction Dept.
Statistics
Weekday Passengers 0.26 mio
Monthly Passengers 6.5 mio
Annual Passengers 78 mio
Annual Revenues 7 billion Drs
Peak Car Requirement 192
Weekday Revenue Miles 31,933.69
Annual Revenue Miles 9.58 mio
Length in Miles 16.2
Service
Weekdays
Peak 3 Minutes (Central segment)
Base 6 Minutes
Evenings 10 Minutes
Saturdays
7/8 Minutes during the day
15 Minutes in the late evening
Sundays
8 Minutes during the day
15 Minutes in the late evening
The present route of the Subway was occupied by the Athens-Piraeus and Athens-Kephissia steam commuter railways.
Subway Construction began in 1895 to reach Omonoia Sq. in the heart of Athens
Electric operation between Omonoia and Piraeus Stations 1904.
Hellenic Electric RR takes over the Athens-Piraeus line and the Electric Transit Co. takes over the Athens-Kephissia Line in 1926.
The Kephissia Line closes down in segments from 1928 to 1938 to allow conversion to electric subway.
WWII put an end to subway conversion in 1940.
During the early 1950's the Electric Transit Co. transferred the abandoned Athens-Kephissia alignement to the Hellenic Electric RR.
Arrangements made in 1950 to purchase modern trainsets from Germany.
Subway operation reaches Kephissia in 1957.
Surface Route 3 to the Royal Pavillon converted to buses in 1960.
Control of the subway is transfered to State-owned HSAP Janary 1, 1976 and plans are made for 2 more lines.
Surface Route 4 to Perama converted to buses in 1977.
A newly formed company, ATTIKO METRO, offically starts building both new lines in 1992.
The subway cars are not air conditioned. I doubt this makes the EU happy.
I rode the Piraeus-Athens line back in 1983. I remember having to open the doors manually when the train stopped at the station, but that's about it.
There's a map of the new lines (but little other information) at the following English-language site: http://www.ametro.gr/
Waiting for me upon my return from Thailand was my copy of Peter Dougherty's Tracks of the New York City Subways, 2nd edition. What a nice welcome home! Thanks, Peter, for making the labors of your love available to us all.
There is a Old SubStation for the 3rd ave El still standing with all its old equipment still in it. The bird have taken over the place and someone have strip the copper for the Power Generate. But it is like it was at its hey days. Most of the dials and button are there. It like if you hit a few of them the place may start up. (I know but hopeful thinking) As I was standing inside yesterday thanking a bird who live there for the find gift he gave me on my coat you can almost hear the Generate humming. Then a cat came out of one Generate and scare the you know what out of me, it was time to go.
They have remove the front gate and the green barn door are open. They are open wide enought so you can take a good look in or walk in. If you are going to walk in please bring a friend or two. Across the street there the back for the Gunhill postoffice and nothing else on the block. On the corner there a small drug den but they don't brother know one(there trying to keep a low key). The Substation is on E.211st 200feet east from Whiteplain road. take the 2 train to gunhill and go downstairs, after you pass the faregate exit right. you willbe on Whiteplain rd facing E.211st. walk down the street 1/4 block and your there.
I've been wondering about that place. It is clearly visible from the platform at Gun Hill Road. Was it in use until recently? It is hard to believe it would simply have been sitting there unused all these years.
You say it is "going" now; any idea what will become of the site? Or of the equipment within it?
The 3rd ave Substation at E.211st shut down in the mid 70's when a new substation came on line a few blocks up. The new substation is by the old interlock tower north of gunhill rd station. The old substation was to be turned into a art place of some kind back in the early 80's but they fond asosto( Misspelled)in the place. By the way they have been removing that cancer stuff from the old power line at gunhill rd station.
What is the difference between the Triborough System and the Dual Contracts?
The Dual Contract lines were lines built and jointly operated by the IRT and BMT(or was it BRT at that time?)
They were the Astoria line( Queens 'N') and the Flushing line(#7).
The Flushing line was built with provisions so that BMT sized rolling stock could operate on the line for BMT/INDcars( at 10' wide and 60-75 feet long) couldn't operate on IRT lines (8'9" wide and 51' wide). The concrete at the edge of the platform is thin so that it could be cut away for BMTsized cars.
Asfor the Triborough system, I'm not quite sure about that, but I do believe it included the Second Avenue Subway(a term so annoying at this point I cringe when I hear it.)
In the "Building of the NYC Subway" section of this site I do believe there is a description of theTriB system.
(You'll have to forgive me, this damn spacebar can't seem to act right.)
I had another slip of the brain,
TheTriborough System was the Lexington Line(4/5/6) and the 4th Avenue line(B/M/N/R).
I'm having another now....:0:)
To be precise, the Triboro System was a proposal to build new subways serving Brooklyn, Manhattan and the Bronx. Construction of the 4th Av. Subway and the Lexington Line were part of this. A new operator was to be chosen by the city - the BRT was looking for this segment.
It evolved into the Dual Contracts which also involved the IRT. As a result of this, the IRT got
Lexington Av. Subway including Pelham & Jerome Lines
7th Av. Subway
Nostrand Av. Line
White Plains Rd. Extension
New Lots Extension
Van Cortland Park Extension
Third Tracks on 2nd, 3rd & 9th Av Els
Steinway Tunnel Upgrade
The BMT got:
4th Av. Subway
Sea Beach Line
West End & Culver el structures
Prospect Park Connection (Flatbush Av.)
Further upgrade of Brighton Line
Broadway Subway
Nassau Subway
Manhattan Bridge
14th St Subway
Broadway and Myrtle (north of Broadway) El Rebuilds
Jamaica Av. Extension
Carnasie & Fulton rebuilding east of East NY
Fulton Upgrade on inner end.
Both got:
Astoria and Corona Els. in Queens
As a sidebar...the Lex Ave line was actually under construction before they assigned it to the IRT...so it was built to 'regular' 10 ft clearences...which is why the platforms on the Lex are unusually wide (and considering the traffic, a good thing too...)
Not only the Lexington Ave. line - all Dual Contracts tunnels (and elevated structures) were built to IND/BMT dimensions. Only the original Contract One and Contract Two tunnels cannot accommodate 10-foot-wide cars. Compare the two straightaway runs down 7th Ave. and Park Ave. There is more clearance between the rails and I-beams on the 7th Ave. line than on the lower Lexington Ave. line.
But is it true that not just platforms, but also signals and through-spans are placed too close to the track, blocking 10ft cars? I've heard that the 10 ft cars still cannot be run down the middle tracks of the Jerome or Flushing lines from the A div./B div connectito just short of the first express stations becuase of this. (That's something I would like to see, and they should photograph)
You're probably right. There was a story a while back about an R-10 which snuck into a train of R-12/14s that was headed out to Corona Yard on the middle track of the Flushing line. All went well until the train reached 61st-Woodside when crru-u-u-nnnchhhhh!!! The R-10 attempted to blaze its own trail through the station.
Sounds strange that they could get an R-10 out to the Corona Yard, since the E/F/N/G yard is three miles away. Plus, how did the train get past Junction Blvd. to reach Woodside?
The train probably was headed from Coney Island to Corona. Since it entered Queensboro Plaza on the BMT side and then took the crossover, the first obstruction would have been at Woodside. Junction Blvd is between Woodside and Corona.
London Underground has shared trackage between the District and Picadilly Lines. Just before the portal for the Picadilly Line there is an oversize car detector which prevents District Cars from attempting to enter the tube tunnel. (Far messier than sending a 10 foot car down Jerome Av.) It sets all signals against the move and may even open a derail!
I know what you mean. District line rolling stock is much bigger, since that line was built by cut-and-cover. I read once that the reason the deep tube lines have smaller tunnels is that it cost four times more to build a deep tube line than a cut-and-cover line. Or was it four times more to dig a deep tunnel to the same dimensions as a cut-and-cover tunnel?
BTW, I remember one distinctive feature on London's tube trains which Montreal's Metro trains also have. Just after the doors would close, a bell in the motorman's cab would ring once, "dink". I presume that would be the same thing as an indicator light in New York.
In today's Philadelphia Daily News, there was an article about the downright frigid temperatures on SEPTA's trains, the El and Subway in particular.
A man(he was called the Phantom Rider-Bobw?:))went and took the temperature on the subway(cars# 525, 681 and 691), both the M-3's(car # 815) and M-4's, the trackless trolleys, the old and new buses and the RR.
The subways and buses were about as warm in the 51-61 degree range except for them-4's(71-74F)and the new Ikarus buses(68F).
The regional rail was the warmest overall type of vehicle with temperatures around 70 degrees.
As a somewhat knowledgable railfan, I had to disagree with some comments made in the article.
A-First of all, the Phantom Rider can't be Bobw(:)because he knows what a lousy service record the M-4's have(or at least display in service often) so the disparaging comments such as "...at least for commuters lucky enough to catch one of the new El trains....Unlucky El riders get stuck in one of the 39-year-old Budd trains...." steam my clams.
B-Iwas wondering if during the week we will see letters to the editor about how the RR trains are usually warmer than the subway commuters.Though they have to be on the train longer, does that make suburban commuters entitled to a warm, fully functioning train and city commuters not?
C-They of course made the point about the floor level heaters on the M-3's that burn your socks but leave the rest of you freezing.
So in conclusion, I've never really had a problem with the temperature on the trains. You have to remember that this is a subway and notthe Titanic(sorry). SEPTA depot officials say the temperatures are set when trains and buses leave the depot, but get cold along the vehicle's route.
That's fantastic. Try keeping the heat on.
For 'Net access to the PDN, try www.phillynews.com
In the article, there was made mention to SEPTA spokesWOMAN Stephan Rosenfeld.
Even the DN jives 'em:):):):)
No, Jack, it's not me! I met the Phantom Rider (if it's still the same guy) almost 20 years ago. I guess he or his successor is still around...
I didn't see the story but I'm a little surprised. The buses are always too hot and, of course, there are no windows to open for relief. This is why we heat-sensitive riders always resort to opening the roof hatches for air. Of course, this backfires on rainy days when the hatches won't close...
But the bus drivers get really pissed when you open the hatches. Once I was on the 125 from KOP and between there and Gulph Mills someone in the back of the crowded bus had opened the hatch and the bus driver wanted to know who it was.
When they wouldn't reaveal themselves the driver stopped at Gulph Mills, closed the doors and called the local police.They got the man and escorted him off the bus. So you can't even do that!
One thing that I thought would always help the problem of Subway platforms is Platform Edge Doors. I know with the current breaking falicies of the M-4 they may be worthless, but think about it in a perfect world...
Have fully climate controlled stations, that are more secure, easier to keep clean, and more. Noise levels would be cut down by the glass, and no one could fall onto the tracks... see the London underground page for more info...
Platform control doors in New York would not be feasable on the IRT until they retired all the Redbirds, since even though the cars are all the same length, the R-62/62A and the coming R-142s will have doors directly opposite each other, while the Redbirds' doors were always pushed two seats back from the cab area, putting the doors at a diagonal to each other.
As for the BMT/IND - Forget it! Not only do you have the same problem with the door angles on the R-32/38/40/42s compared to the R-44/46/68, but you also have the 15-foot difference in length to contend with. The platform doors would have to slide up into the ceiling like a garage door and be about 20 feet wide each to match up with all they different door positions.
The only place platform doors would be workable is on the Eastern Division, which can handle only the 60 foot cars (since there are no 67-footers available), but where the bulk of the stations are elevated.
The offset on the doors only appears to put them in a different place. Realistically, those doors are all the same distance from each other and the car ends on each side. If you cut a redbird in half (and we may soon get to do this experiment) and took one half and placed it so the cut is against the uncut side (ie, toast one side of two pieces of bread, place them toasted side to untoasted side) the doors will line up to within an inch or so. But you're right about the IND/BMT system, where the doors on the 2 different car lengths would require multiple openings that would probably fail in daily service. You also wouldn't be able to equip all IRT stations, because of limited view and curves The time has come to stop making excuses for those idiots in society who don't know to stand back. What next, jersey barriers on street curbs to keep cars from running up on the sidewalk?
-Hank
There's also the problem of `platform door failure' to think about. I was on the tram at the Dallas-Fort Worth International Airport back when it first opened, and the platform doors had a nasty habit of not opening when the train doors did (or the trains themselves did not align with the doors). This left you taking a wonderfully slow trip around the D-FW aiport (Think of an fully-loaded R-16 trying to climb the Smith-9th elevated section in an ice storm and you get the idea) while your plane is getting ready to leave.
I could just see a crowded train's door on the Lex opening up and a crowd of people smashing into a glass door on the platform. The doors would last about as long as the carpeting did on those R-44 cars.
Like I said, perfect world =)...
I was actually centering this discussion in Phila, I don't really know that much about NYC Transit. It would be slightly more feasable in Phila simly because all El cars are being replaced, and all BSS cars are also the same.
"Platform Door Failure" is of course also something I did not consider, but I figure if you set them up similar to the mechanisms on the trains, they should last with regular maitenance. In the underground, the doors can also be slid open from trackside.
Of course, in Phila; the underground stations would have to be completely redone, which most need anyway, and need to be made more acessible.
The drivers on the artics welcome the ventilation! Although there was one once who made a similar complaint to me when I opened the "hatch". I asked whether he would rather have the hatch opened or one of the emergency windows flapping. He relented.
I guess you got a reasonable driver...or an uninformed one.
When we finally made our way back on to 76, the driver I mentioned was chatting with some of the people up front, saying that if one of the hatches blew off the top of the bus, she could lose her job. Truth or just covering herself up?
Let's not forget that subway and bus riders in winter most likely are wearing coats. Keeping the cars at normal room temperatures would be too hot for the coat-wearing riders. Now suburban commuter trains are a different story, as most riders are able to take their coats off.
Remember also that subway trains make more frequent stops and have 3 or 4 sets of doors, which are thus opened more frequently making it harder to keep the cars warm.
True indeed, and truer if you rode an elevated line on an end of the train not subject to being covered by station canopies..the rain, snow, and wind blasted in as soon as the doors opened! I can remember going to school on the Jamaica Line in the middle 60's; there was Skip-stop service provided by the 14 and 15 inbound from 168th St. The 0757 departure was a 14, which usually was a BMT Standard, or an R16; which deadheaded in from the ENY Yard. Many times this train had clearly been stored with all the doors open, because during snowstorms, there was always a PILE of snow INSIDE the car..we always had to clear a seat and stomp a path in from the door! One time the vents were all open (BMT Stndrd) and the FANS were on HIGH..all during a snowstorm! But they ran..and ON TIME! I will say the old BMT Standards did seem to have a better heater than the R16's....the car was nice and warm well before arriving at Bway Junction...not true with the R16's!
That's not surprising. The BMT standards outperformed the R-16s in almost any category, and that includes lousy weather. Come to think of it, the R-16s were outperformed by almost every other car class. That's not taking anything away from the BMT standards. There will never be another car like them (or the R-10s, for that matter).
I don't know if trains are or were stored in yards with their side doors open; however, the storm door at the very end of a train could have been left open. There is a photo in Gotham Turnstiles of a train of BMT standards laid up on the middle track of the Astoria line with its side doors open.
The worst in Phila in my book are the Budd El cars. The heaters are undersized for the cars and at either terminal the trains sit outdoors with the doors opened for 5 minutes plus. With all the stops, it's no wonder that the cars are iceboxes in the cold weather. I recall riding on cars so cold that the windows steamed to the point at which no one could see in or out them.
The M-4's are supposed to have a modification to allow only one set of doors per car to remain open at the terminals to prevent this from occurring. Let's see what happens.
I was at the 161 St. uptown "D" platform today and saw a pigeon walking about on the platform. Now upstairs on the elevated '4' line I would expect it, but in the subway?
Do you suppose he flew (or walked) through the transfer area from the elevated portion of the station? They are doing some construction there, there is a wooden door at the top of the escalator that may have been open earlier. My guess would be he flew in this door and it was later closed behind him. I have never seen a pigeon in an actual underground subway station before; the closest I have seen would be at the Morris Park station on the '5', where they routinely fly into the underground portion of the station from the open-air portion, and sometimes even a bit into the tunnel between Morris Park and Pelham Parkway.
It is quite common for pigeons to travel on London Underground Trains. Edgware Road seems to be the most popular. They usually travel a couple of stops and get off. I did travel with one on the Central Line (deep level tube) some time ago. It must have got on at a surface level station before it went underground. They board the trains looking for scraps of food and are usually rewarded. A half eaten McDonalds quaterpouder with cheese seems the most popular made3 even more delicious by a kicked over Coke which by now is going hard and sticky. I think the official LT Policy is that they are vermin.
Sometimes i see pigeon's at the Kingsbridge Station of the D train also. How these flying rodent's get underground at the above station beats me.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
I saw one at the lower level of 168th St (1/9 platform)!
I've seen them there too. I figure they just fly right in through the tunnel portal. I've also seem them inside the Staten Island Mall, and occasionally in supermarkets. I just have a single question: Does the pigeon have to pay a fare to ride the train?
-Hank :)
The fare was deposited on the floor, the seats, coats, etc...
Standard pigeon s***. (Unless on of the GoodFeathers.)
He must have taken the elevator.
Pigeons, and birds in general, do seem to have a tendency toward getting into strange places. Just last Saturday I spotted a bird swooping around the Edwards Supermarket in Farmingville. The only way into the place is via two automatic doors that are closed most of the time, and possibly also through a loading dock. It was sort of cute, until it dawned on me that our feathered friend was flying over the fruits and vegetables.
I've seen pigeons in Penn station before. I think the get in through the LIRR entrance, as they seem to gravitate toward the LIRR concorse. I heard when the AstroDome was sealed in, a whole flock of them were trapped inside. Also that astroturf was created because real grass was unsucessful inside, but that's another story.
This is getting off subject, for which I apologize. When the Astrodome originally opened, the roof was transparent to allow the sun inside. A special grass was developed for indoor use and was put down on the playing field. The real problem was that outfielders couldn't follow the flight of the baseball on fly balls because of the sun coming in through the roof. The roof was then painted, which solved that problem, but then the grass died due to lack of sunlight. Enter Monsanto, who developed the synthetic playing surface which bears the name of the stadium for which it was specifically made.
BTW, Mickey Mantle is credited with hitting the first home run in the Astrodome, in an exhibition game.
I'm not surprised; I've seen several at Columbus Circle when the station isn't busy. The garbage pile on the center platform is probably the big draw.
A pigeon is a logical denizen of the subway: A rat with feathers!
Now, if you see a seagull (the other feathered rat) down there, that would be more unusual!
The seagulls prefer the elevateds -- they hang out at Stillwell and on the Rockaway line.
There was once an E train of R-6s which sounded like a flock of seagulls as it started to pull out of 42nd St.
Dear friends and colleagues: I happen to notice that today there was a posting by "R33 Redbird."That's not me.In the future I'll sign as follows:Larry,RedbirdR33.
Best wishes,Redbird
We've had some good discussion over which is our favorite subway car.I'd like to list mine but split them up according to which generation they belong to.The first generation would be the equipt
ment purchased by the original owners:IRT,BRT/BMT and IND R 1-9.
The second generation would be the cars that replaced them the R-10's thru R-42's. The third generation would be the R-62's and up. I admit I'm not quite sure where to place the R-44's and R-46's since they did replace the last of the R-1/9's.However the R-10's thru R-42 were a mechanically homogenous group whereas the R-44's and R-46's were not and also their 75 foot size places them more with the later cars.
1st Generation:Lo-V's,I was too young to really remember the Hi-V's and Flivvers,the Steinways were nice but a bit rough riding. The Lo-V's gave great service for many years and later formed the backbone of the Work Fleet.
2nd Generation: No contest,R-29,33,36 Redbirds and Bluebirds.The R-26's and 28's are nice but again seem to ride a little rougher than the Redbirds and Bluebirds.
3rd Generation: This is tough.My personal opinion is that they lack character and resemble silver sausages.I'd have to say the R-110A's
since they seem to have some individuality.
If you see a bias to the IRT your right.
Best Wishes to all,Larry,Redbird R33
I personally would lump the R-44s and R-46s into the second generation group, since they did allow the last of the R-1/9s to be retired.
Now, back to your question:
First generation: R-1/9s, hands down. The only other first generation equipment I ever rode on was BMT standards, and you know how I felt about them back then. I never rode on any prewar IRT rolling stock.
Second generation: R-10s, no contest. The A line will never be the same without them. End of subject. The R-32s and R-38s come in next, with the Redbirds as a group being a sentimental favorite. I have a soft spot for the R-32s, since I remember when they were brand-spanking new. My very first subway ride was on an N of R-32s.
Third Generation: single R-62As. They have get-up-and-go, and at least you can look out the storm door window. Which is more than I can say on both counts for the R-68s.
1st generation- Low-V.nothing more to add here!My all-time favorite
2nd generation: R44/46- Introduced the ding-dong door closing and multi-color seats.
3rd generation-R62 single cars.
Actually, I read somewhere that the BMT Bluebird back in the 30s had the `ding dong' sound when the doors closed. Apparently, the TA didn't think it was a `must' for the system for another 25 years, until the R-44s were ordered.
I understand the Multisectionals had door chimes, or was it one of the experimentals (Zephyr or Green Hornet)?
You may be right, though.
I will put my two cents worth in, having missed the original post by a few days:
1st Generation: 1938 WF Low-Vs, with their sickly green paint, jumbo fans and ogee roofs. Second place: R7s/R9s with FIBERGLAS seats.
2nd Generation: Slant R40s. 'Nuff said. Second place: R16s.
3rd Generation: Begrudgingly, R68As, esp. the ones with the black floors. (5122-1-3-4; 5058-7-9-60 etc). The R110B is nice too, but there aren't enough of them.
Wayne [MrSlantR40]
In reading thru the threads..I am wondering what is the maximum allowed speed - civil speed and posted - on the system, and where this would be; it seems that now that I am a periodic visitor to NY, the subways - read B division - seem slower than before I left. I very vaguely seem to remember a 50 posting somewhere - probably on the route of the "A", but that's the highest I can drag out of my memory. Any one have this info?
It seems that this perceived slowing started about the time of the replacement of the R1/9's and the D units.
R62 and R62A does have #1 to #7 and #9 circle also diamond is #4,#5,#6,and #7. I never heard #8,#10,#11,#12, and #13 Roll Sign on R62.
The other numbers as described do exist. I saw R62A #1744 sporting a green #10 sign back on January 28. These are for future route designations, no doubt, and have been widely spotted and reported.
They run all the way up to a red #13, and someone reported a red #14 as well, but I can't confirm this. You may see some of these once the Redbirds (which do not have them) are fully phased out.
Wayne
I was looking at Illustrated Subway Cars Roster and Cars Wrecked/Scrapped while in Revenue Service. I saw a R40M #4461 J train with no nose with heavy damage. That the same train that motorman was kill in Wreck into M train at Williamburge Bridge in 1995? I thought they scrapped that car and why they keep that R40m #4461? They should never kept that train because motorman was kill in that train. God bless you
Pending litigation likely
Actually, I believe that #4461 will be returned to service when the repairs are done, not merely kept around until the court cases are settled (if that were the case, there'd be no need to repair it).
I stated several weeks ago that I would no longer respons to posts without an E-mail address. Hopefully this will be the one exception!
I have the "CFR" (code of Federal Regulations) about railroads. I also have the NYCT Rule book and the complete Policy Instruction manual. No where does it say that a car that is involved in a fatality, should not be rebuilt. On what do you base your belief? More importantly,besides posting inane messages here, what do you do for (fun)?
They probably elected to repair #4461 because despite the heavy carbody penetration as the result of the collision, the frame and sills withstood the blow. #4664 was definitely not so lucky.
Other cars that were seriously damaged, repaired and returned to service include R42 #4612, R40M #4501, R38 #4063, R27 #8217, R68 #2755, R42 #4918, R42 #4938 and #4939, R46 #5546, R46 #5796.
(there are others, I am sure).
The carbody repair folks at CI (AND 207th Street) are experts.
Wayne
Maybe you have discussed this.....
But why did The TA Repeal it's rule against strollers around 1992/93.
( am i right, or were they always allowed? )
I belive Steve answered this some time ago. Ruth Messinger was the person who got the rule changed.
Because it was mentioned here, I found the article on the x-bus signs for the non-existant routes on Staten Island, it'll be there until Wednesday, at least.Phantom Routes
-Hank
For the second time in three weeks, a local person was killed by a SEPTA commuter train.
This happened at the Gwynedd Valley station on the R5 to Doylestown last night.
A local man was awaiting a train to Center City. As the train approached the station, the security gates(for there is a grade crossing near the station) went down and hit the top of a PennDOT truck. A piece of the gate flew off and hit the man in the head, knocking him out. He then fell by tracks as the train approached.
This time it wasn't because of someone on the tracks but an unfortunate freak accident.
The Post reports a problem with the trucks on
certain subway cars. Why on these cars, and why now? Has
this ever been a problem before? Click for
story
How come the R 44s and R46 and it also look the R 62s are are haveing problems like cracked under carriges and it doen't look like much will be done. So does that mean were all at risk when we ride the trains? Maybe an Road Car Inspector out there can answer there Questions. Also read the story that Gary W has
There's not much that CAN be done about it. Metals fatigue, it's a fact of life. This has probbably been a problem throughout the history of the system. I've heard the LIRR is having the same things happen to their M-1s. A lot of why the GG-1 was taken out of service was fatigue. You can do regular monitoring, and I suspect the TA is doing so already. I'd also assume, though I'm by no means an expert on truck design, that any crack large enough to be a serious issue is also large enough to be rather visable. Besides, crack detection is fairly advanced these days, with ultrasound, magnaflux, etc.
As far as figuring out WHY the cracks are appearing, that would require quite a good study of the design, and probbably testing a truck in service with a bunch (like a few hundred) strain gauges on it to see what's going on. Nothing new either, but not the easiest of tasks. Made even more fun by the harsh environment that is the NYC subway.
Anyway, I'd hardly stop riding the subway because of this, given that I've not heard of any accidents that were caused by truck failure, outside of the traction motor drop on the market Frankford line a few years back, though I did hear that some LIRR train dropped a motor in Jamacia the other week. Maybe we're all concerned about the wrong transit system?
I'm more worried about the tracks on the Manhattan Bridge. I read a summary of an inspection report on the A/B tracks from a year to two ago that recommened upgrading the tracks TO the level required for safe transit service, and painting the bridge IMMEDIATELY.
Are the cars the:
R-33
R-38
R-44
R-46?
The problem of truck cracks is a serious one but in light of the NY Post article, must be viewed with perspective. As stated, there have been 70+ incidents of cracked trucks in the past 3 years. With over 11,000 trucks that's a failure rate of less than 0.2% per year. Also remember that of the 70+ incidents, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM has been found during routine inspection. None of the cracks has led to an "in-service" failure, much less a derailment. Finally, it was Car Maintenance that found this problem and reported it to Engineering (not the other way around).
The first cracked truck was found at Jamaica Shop (on an R-46), as was the last one (on an R-32). I must say that the last one was an eye opener. Of the thousands of collective years of experience at Jamaica Shop, none of us has ever seen one quite like it. But again, it was found during insoection and not as a result of a failure. The men and women who do the daily car inspections around the NYCT system do an excellent job.
As to why the trucks are cracking, that's under investigation. Fatigue is the most likely conclusion but as yet, engineering has yet to make that determination definitively. However, some of the trucks now in service are the original ones, delivered with the cars. Yet, the Buckeye trucks under the R-46s seem particularly prone to one type of crack and they are a relatively new truck.
In perspective, cracks due to stress and fatigue are commonplace on jet aircraft. We all know that a stress crack in a wing spar, up 35,000 feet at 600 miles an hour can be far more catostrophic than an equalizer bar crack down 30 feet at 40 MPH. Despite that, most of us still fly. We trust that the inspectors will find these failures before they become a problem. For the record, I ride the trains every day without worry.
(Note to Davie Forster: RCIs do not find these types of cracks. Routine inspections are done by Car Inspectors)
Thanks Steve for the currection car Inspectors find that stuff out not Road car Inspector.
Sorry confusing I may have caused.
To quote Yogi Berra, it's deja vu all over again.
I seem to have read somewhere that the R-10s had truck cracking problems when they were new, but that had to do with casting methods.
I'll say this much: it's nice to know that maintenance and routine inspections are a top priority these days.
The Post story on the new carcking problems got me thinking -- Since the Flivvers were delivered 90 years ago, has they been a really bad fleet of cars on the IRT line? It seems like all the problems we hear about -- the slowness of the R-16s and the R-68s, the re-do of the R-40s (a design rather than a mechanical problem), and the truck problems of the R-46s and the various troubles with the R-44 -- all are on B division cars.
Is that because of their bigger size/weight, or that the IRT cars have always had fewer untested bells and whistles put on them than the BMT/IND cars have?
No IRT cars were ever ordered when the TA went through their radical design period comming up with bad designs. All cars ever ordered for the IRT were already designed for the B division. The R-10's came with the bad trucks, so when the r-12's came, they came with the r-10 type replacement truck.
However, the R-110a's are the IRT's lemons. They have cracked trucks and other assorted problems.
Folks should remember that the 110a was a test train and some components were bound to fail. Those components that failed or proved unreliable would not be included on the new fleet. The other side of the coin is, the new technology that was tested and proved its self during the test may be safely incorporated in the new fleet.
I think its unfair to call 110a test train a lemon.
I didn't include the 110A for that reason, just as I wouldn't include the R-11 for the BMT, since both were basically experimental single-train orders. But it does seem as though for better (air conditioning) or worse (75-foot cars with locked doors) the B division seems to be where the NYCTA/MTA has liked to try its innovations.
Lest we not forget these:
SMEE brakes (R-10s)
P-Wire Brakes (R-44/R-46)
Hydraulic Brakes (R-44)
Fly Wheels (R-32)
Current Collectors (R-46)
Air Bag Suspension (R-44 and R-46)
Static Converters (R-42)
Single handle Controllers (R-44/R-46)
fluorescent lighting (R-10)
AC (R-38s)
Large End Signs (R-40)
Electronic Side Signs (R-44/R-46)
etc. etc. etc.
Actually, the first air-conditioned NYC subway car was IRT R-15 6239. It was retrofitted in the 1950s. In addition, 10 IRT R-17s were delivered with air-conditioning (6800-6809).
David
Don't forget about the precipitrons on the R-11s, which were supposed to sterilize the air and ended up sterilizing everything and everyone inside the train!
Based on the articles in the News and the Post today, they ought to try bringing that back for the E train. Even if it didn't keep the line any cleaner, at least the people who are throwing all that junk onto the floors won't be having any kids who'll do the same, so that should clean the line up in about 20 years or so.
The IRT was also an innovator. Today's cars are all Low-V rather than High-V. Original transit cars were High-V with full current going through the cab controls. IRT introduced the Low-V with their cars ,some in fan service called "Low-V"cars. For their time, they were the new technology trains . AFter they proved themselves, all cars since have been Low-V.
Long live the Low-V, my all-time favorite subway car.(Yes, I have been on 4 fan trips on them-once to the Rockaways and three times for an all-day excursion leaving from Grand Central Shuttle Tracks.!
I especially like the "Steering wheel" handbrakes and the four sided marker lights at the tops of the cars. The "wicker" seats and slat signs are also great.(Of course, today the seats would be slashed by the end of a trip and signs gone within 2-3 stations.)
I think you have to consider that the IRT has used the same basic car for almost 50 years. The BMT and IND are the proving grounds for the TA as far as innovation.
Fellow posters, in the few days that I've been following this site I've seen lots of good messages and, unfortunately, a few bad ones. Accordingly, I'd like to suggest the following revised rules for posting on this site, in the spirit of those stated by Mr. Pirmann:
1. No posting until you have read the entire site (http://www.nycsubway.org). Many of the simple questions I have seen here are answered on this site. If it's about NYC rail transit and it's not answered on the site, it's probably not a stupid question and this is the place to get an answer.
2. No flamage of any kind. If a particular post bothers you, ignore it. Responding negatively only gives the poster the thrill he/she seeks. Nastiness, when ignored, will go away and seek satisfaction elsewhere.
3. Answer a request for information only if you have it. Don't invent an answer; there are enough people out here who do know and wrong information only confuses the issue. If you do make an honest mistake, however, admit it and you will be forgiven.
4. Try to use correct spelling and grammar. Again, no one's perfect, but the effort would be appreciated by all.
One additional suggestion to everyone reading this: if you live remotely close to NYC, join the Transit Museum and participate in their tours. I know that I have learned a lot about things I have seen but never understood (or thought I understood but really didn't) and about a lot of places and things that I would never have had the chance to see otherwise. If you can afford to be on the Internet you can afford to join!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
One further: (not observed by Anon_e_mouse) Post your e-mail address (if you're on the net with an isp, you have mail) so that posters who want to follow up can do so personally, rather than post it and possibly start a flame war. (I know, there are not supposed to happen here, but........) Several of us have made new friends because of SubTalk and e-mail,
If you're on the net, period, you have no excuse for not having a valid email address. There are more than enough 'freemail' sites that there should be no excuses.
-Hank
Just to add, if people don't start using complete sentences, I'm gonna send my creepy goggled mouse to your house. I mean, come on, third grade english! Any literate person over 9 years of age should at least be able to write a complete sentence.
-Hank
You are, of course, assuming (remember the REAL meaning of "assume") that modern (post 1980) education teaches English grammer and sentence construction.
I learned it, I use it, I just can't spell. A complete sentennce is different from poor spelling. If I say : 'I Like trains, they run on traks in Brooklin and Manhatten' You know what I'm saying, spelling errors and all. If I say: 'These is those trains. Theys ares in the subways.' How much sense does it make? Typos? OK, no problem. My new keyboard is 3" smaller than my old one, and I have big fingers. Leads to lots of typos. And I've yet to meet anyone (with the exception of my English 8 teacher in high school) who didn't appriciate a spell-checker.
-Hank
What's a spell checker? (just kidding)
I learned a long time ago that one must never assume anything.
DOES ANYBODY HAVE KNOWLEDGE OF WHEN OF THE FIRST OF THE R-142's ARE DUE TO ARRIVE? (OR IF THEY DID ALREADY) ANY INFO WOULD BE HELPFUL THANKS!!!
The R 142 did not arrive yet. But there has been talk of them arriveing around about the end of the year. Maybe someone else will have more Info. to share
The R 142 did not arrive yet. But there has been talk of them arriveing around about the end of the year. Maybe someone else will have more Info. to share
The first train of R142 will arrive in the Spring of this year.
Arrival is alleged to begin around mid-April to early May. And turn off your caps, please!
-Hank
I know this is a terrible pun, but it won't be long before we'll all be singing, "Bye, Bye, (Red)Birdie(s)". Sorry, but I couldn't resist.
I can hear the hisses and boos...splat!!
Yep, the first of the R142's could be here in two months...lets keep are fingers crossed! For those who will miss the redbirds, don't worry, because I think about 300 of them will still be in service even after all the R142's arrive.-Nick
But for how long?:(
I don't know, but probably until the next shipment of IRT trains come in, which would be in the next few years. The question is where the remaining 300 redbirds are going to be assigned, are they going to be scattered on all the lines, or on just one or two of them? I know the R62's are going to the #7, but perhaps the redbirds should remain there instead because it's a partly elevated line, and the redbirds look so authentic when you see them from the highways.-Nick
I think they should have repainted those World's Fair cars back to blue and white years ago. Perhaps before they're completely gone.....
-Hank
Yeah, the #7 won't be the #7 without those old red cars eeking and screaching and grinding around turns. The stainless look will kill it. Why can't the TA at least paint their eqipment so it looks nice?
I dunno...painting on stainless steel? Maybe not painted all red, but maybe a blue stripe like the R46's and other cars used to have. However, the MTA likes everyhting to have as modern as possible look;which is why those blue stripes were taken off in the first place. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if the R62's went in for rebuilding soon (they are between 14 and 16 years old already), and came back with electronic signs like the R46's did, and maybe a few other surprises too.-Nick
Yes I have heard that as soon as the R 142s come in the R62 are supose to be rebuilt. Maybe someone has more Info. on that.
Has the TA gone through with having those annoying "automatic" female voice station announcements like on the prototypes??
>>Has the TA gone through with having those annoying "automatic" female voice station announcements like on the prototypes??
Boy, I hope not. They put recorded announcements in the new cars on the Boston Red Line, and it's sucked all the character out of that ride, having some accentless robot chirp, "Now approaching... Harvard Square!" instead of a local voice growling "Haahvahd."
Personally, I like the computerized messages better. While sometimes they may seem annoying, you always know what stop is next, and other important informaion. No longer do we have to guess what the mumbling conductor is saying, and frankly I won't miss that at all.-Nick
Theres nothing like hearing a live voice.
I much prefer the automated station stop announcements (and associated LED displays) in the new Boston red line cars. With live humans I may or may not get any announcement at all, and I may or may not understand what I hear. The automatic announcements do sometimes malfunction though, which then makes them worse than no announcement at all.
The blue stribes on the stainless cars were removed for economic reasons, not cosmetic. Why pay to paint something that doesn't need painting? Personally, I like the all-steel look. Gives it a bright appearence. With the subway, the only thing people care about are if the train is on time, if they can get a seat, and is it clean. Paint on the cars (with the exception of graffiti, which gives a bad impression) makes no difference.
-Hank
Hank, this is very true. But that also means that not too many people are interested in going back to the worlds fair color scheme, why repaint when the red looks fine?-Nick
Hopefully the TA wanted to keep the traditional door chime instead of that ANNOYING BEEPING.I think it would drive me up a wall.BEEEP BEEEP BEEEEEP.See?I payed no attention to it then,it was a prototype.This is now the future of new york city subway.BEEEEP BEEEEP BEEEEP.
From what I used to hear, the 7 was supposed to keep the redbirds until the end. Only when all of them are retired, would the 62's be shifted over.
If a post a couple of months ago was right, the Redbirds on the 7 have one of the best MBDF numbers on the system, so you would figure the MTA would keep them around if they're that reliable.
On the other hand, since corrosion is a big problem, they might want to go back and swap the southern terminals for the 2 and 3 and run the Redbirds on the 3 from Flatbush Ave. to 148th Lennox. Outside of the Times Square shuttle that would be the closest you could get to a completely underground (and out of the weather) line on the IRT.
On Sunday, I saw a pair of R32s (4806 & 4807) on the Manhattan-bound express track of the F train, seemingly laying up in the station. The end rollsigns read "Not in service" but the side rollsigns claimed that the cars were on the Z. Both cars were unmanned, but one had a clamped to various handholds and parts of the benches. I couldn't see the front of the equipment, but the whole setup looked brand-new and a good bit more complicated than a stereo.
I haven't the foggiest idea what these cars were doing. Any ideas?
-Daniel Casey
(((((((Bzzzzzzzzzzz)))))))) Wrong. 4806 & 07 are R-42s. R32s don't have an end sign roll. Track Geometry cars are designated 0TG01 and 0TG02. They do not look like subway cars. I don't have the list of cars involved but I would suspect that those two cars are part of the CBTC program and were part of a test.
You are wrong about the TGC numbers. The correct ones are TGC1 & TGC2
On the car they display that numbers as you stated but in the computer they are designated stated in my post
What computer are you refering to?
The R42 cars selected for the CBTC program are as follows: 4612/13, 4694/95, 4758/59, 4762/63, 4806/07, and 4836/37.
What station? What was clamped to various handholds? And Those are not R32 car numbers....R40 or R42, but definately not R32.
-Hank
[What station? What was clamped to various handholds? And Those are not R32 car numbers....R40 or R42, but definately not R32.
-Hank]
Right on the numbers; I'm not much of a car spotter. This was on the Manhattan-bound express track of the F, about halfway down the 7th Avenue station in Park Slope. Clamped to various handholds was some kind of custom-built metal rack: about ten feet long and three feet deep. It supported plywood shelves, and on the shelves were stacks of various electronic components, most the size and shape of VCRs-- what kind or what possible function I can't say, since they faced away from the windows. It looked for all the world like a very complicated, custom-built stereo of some kind.
-Daniel Casey
4806 and 4807 are R42 numbers. According to my records these are part of the automatic train control (CBTC) test train. 4612 and 4613 are two others; I'll have to look up the rest. They hang out on the bypass between 7th Avenue & Church while they go through their paces.
The "Z" sign is very believable (so would "J", "L" or "M") since they are all Eastern Division cars.
Wayne
From PATH employees: The reason PA-3 cars (700 series) are in work service is due to door problems. Many days I have ridden and seen these cars with oen or more door leaves or both in a pair being cutout. The intent is to retire all PA-3 cars and scrap the K cars when the new cars arrive. The new cars are on hold due to problems with the FRA rejecting OPTO and PATH's insistence on OPTO.
I have no info on when the new cars are coming or what they will look like or who will build the PA-5 cars.
What cars are on the PATH now? When were they purchased? There is a new order places/being placed?---Could someone elaborate?
Check out the PATH Roster. All the PA car classes (PA1, PA2, PA3, and PA4) are still in service.
--dave
p.s. Getting tired of hearing these "Check out the...." posts huh? :-)
A follow up to our most excellent host's excellent post:
PATH wants new cars, and PATH needs new cars. When they are bought they will be called "PA-5" cars.Boarding and exiting PATH at Newark Penn Station I pass by all of their storage yard and see all their trains in the various yards and have seen increasing numbers of 700 (PA-3) series cars in work service. They are still not painted yellow but thet wear a big W and a small Mw (for Maintenance of Way) and have the windows covered by the same material that makes up the side body of the car.
The hold-up is the FRA. PATH is subject to the FRA rules. FRA has said no many times to OPTO. PATH has also tried many times to get out from the burden of FRA regulations but they are always turned down.
Dave can correct me if I am wrong but some of the PA cars date to 1961 or early 60s. Only the PA-4 cars(the 800 series- the ones with 3 sets of doors on each side, the stainless steel cars) are 1987-1989.
I hope this clarifies the issue
Is the whole PATH system subject to FRA or only the portion out to Newark Penn Station?
Your doing "locomotive" motor inspection on each and every car like the LIRR does on their MU's??
Ditch Lighting?? (hehe)
Unlike the NYCT, the signaling on PATH in it's entirety meets FRA. They use double rail AC track circuits with impedance bonds.
The entire system is FRA. All doors have grab bars inside and outside and are subject to FRA inspections like LIRR. They ahve tried to get out of FRA regulations but they cant get it approved so they have to contend with FRA.
It is my understanding that inspection frequencies are more frequent and when to replace is morer stringent than the subways face. I'm sure that Steve (trainmaster7)can elaborate more on FRA standards vs transit's standards on repair vs replace.
Due to a switch near their Harrison Car Maintenance Facillity(HCMF) from the yard track crossing(no switch) the PATH NY Bound track and joining the AMTRAK main line and another switch near the tunnel portals used also by conrail(And whatever RR will use the tracks now) the line is FRAand why they wont allow PATH to pull out of FRA regs.
Amazing, Thanks
Hello! I am looking for plans to the BMT multi-section cars. Especially the BLUEBIRD cars, and the multi's that were built by Pullman Standard and St. Louis Car Co.
Thank you!
Why? What are you up to? tell us. .............please?
I am thinking of building a set or two, if I can ever decide between etched brass or styrene plastic. It would make more sense for me to make styrene masters, and then do urethane resin castings of the cars from these masters. I've done it before in narrow-gauge On2, so the only hard part will be all those @#$%^&* rivets!
Another plan request, this time for the "mean-looking" type D. Thank you!
I don't have plans, but do have some pictures, interior and exterior.
Would this help? They are recent, taken just last October 18. The middle ("B" car) is shorter than the end ("A" or "C") cars.
Their unit numbers are 6001 thru 6120 A, B and C.
Wayne
I have the Greller book, which has a decent set of photos. I'm surprised that the plans aren't more readily available. Thanks for the info.
Spiral bound photocopies of original NYCTA plan sheets. 8.5x11"
format, chock full of information. Contact me by direct email. Thank
you. Includes the following:
New York City Transit Authority
Car Maintenance Department General Equipment Drawings
Electric Locomotives
General Electric/ALCO steeplecab #5
General Electric steeplecab #6
General Electric steeplecab #7
Diesel Locomotives
Whitcomb #9 (originally US Army #7980)
General Electric #10 & 11
General Electric #50-53
General Electric #54-59
General Electric #60-62
Subway Passenger Cars
IRT Division Q type: #1600ABC-1629ABC (2 pages)
BMT Division type A, B, BT #2400-2799 (2 pages)
IND Division type R-1 #100-399
IND-BMT Division type R-4 #400-899
IND-BMT Division type R-7A #1575
IND-BMT Division type R-11 #8010-8019
IRT Division type R-12 #5703-5802
IRT Division type R-14 #5803-5952
IRT Division type R-15 #5953-5999 and 6200-6252
IRT Division type R-17 #6500-6899
IRT Division type R-21 #7050-7299
IRT Division type R-22 #7300-7749
IND-BMT Division type R-30A #8352-8411 (2 pages)
IRT Division type R-33 #9306-9345
MOW Service Cars
Contract R-3: Motor Flat Cars #20010 & 42
Contract R-3: Pump Car #20128
Contract R-3: Trailer Dump Cars #35/36 and 20137-20140
Contract R-20: Telescoping Boom Crane Car #20153
Contract R-20: Traveling Crane Cars #20151/52
Contract R-20: Trailer Dump Cars #20141-20144
Trailer Hopper Cars #H250-H279
Trailer Flat Car #20023 after 1954 rebuild
Tank & Weed Spray Car #20048
Trailer Tank Cars #20122-20125
Trailer Rail Handling Crane #20149
$12 postpaid in the USA.
I'm looking for the specifications and/or histories of three locomotive from the Manhattan Railway: #21, #159 and #303. I believe that the first two were built by New York in 1886, and the third by Baldwin in 1881. I'm looking for cylinder size, driver diameter and disposition.
Try this:
Tribute to the "El" Forney steamers
1/48, O Scale News, May/June 1987 page 16
( 0-4-0T, 0-4-4T, ELEVATED, ENGINE, FORNEY, "FRANK, JOSEPH H."
from the model magazine index search page at:
http://www.accurail.com/tm.exe
This is a really nice drawing:
An elevated railway Forney
Narrow Gauge and Short Line Gazette, January/February 1989 page 50
( 0-4-4T, DRAWING, ENGINE, FORNEY, "GEBHARDT, ED", LOCOMOTIVE
Good luck!
Some additional info for you Steve:
Elevated Railway forneys
Built by Rhode Island Loco Works +/- 1893
drivers: 44"
cylinders: 13"x21"x18"
weight: 60,000lbs.
pressure: 180psi
brakes: Eames vacuum
cross-compound or simple (as ordered)
Chicago had 35 locos, similar to the ones built for NYC. An ex-Chicago loco resides in the Museum of Transportation in St. Louis.
If you can lay your hands on it, "Modern Locomotives" published by the Railway Gazette in 1901 is an excellent source of information.
There was a period of time from about 1973 when the KK Av Bway-Bklyn Lcl stopped running until 1989 when the Z began that the J provided all service on the Jamaica Av Line. During this time J's ran skip-stop service southbound on the Jamaica Line like they do today during the AM rush making either "A" or "B" stops. Since only the J was running how on earth did they tell the trains apart?Thanks in advance.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Stations along the Jamaica line were marked as A, B, or AB depending on which of the skip-stop services stopped there. I don't believe the trains themselves were marked as such. This is based on what was written in Seeing New York, which came out in 1976.
Steve: That's true but since the roll signs had no provision for such a sign I wonder if the trains carried cardboard placards or something.I know the station had "A" or "B" or "AB" signs posted but I wonder if they just relied on PA announcements.
Regards,Larry,Redbird
I have tried to confirm this with a map, which I cannot find anywhere On-Line; but I seem to remember a time when the "J" was both a circle and a diamond on the map, the diamond indicating the rush hour "J" Express, the circle indicating the all times "J" local. The only confusion would be if you got on a train at a "AB" station, otherwise you would know if you were on a train making "A" only or "B" only. When I rode this line in the later 60's and early 70's, in rush hours you could ALWAYS tell without looking at any signage...the Exp trains always were SRO at the very first stop 168th ST, and got more crowded as they went inbound, the locals never got a crowd prior to Bway-ENY where generally everyone got off switching to either the "L", an Exp "J" or went downstairs to take the "A/E"'s.
The "KK" was an interesting trial; I wonder if it would have been more successful if it had run EXP in Bklyn; it MIGHT have been a somewhat quicker ride to lower Manhattan, than taking the E/F or the "A" from Southeastern Queens. Of course, something would have been needed for local service between Myrtle and Bway-ENY, so I doubt it would have worked out.
Someone has posted a query about utilizing the Atlantic Ave corridor LIRR for service to continue into Manhattan....wow..sure would be a FAST trip from Jamaica, even making Woodhaven, Eastn Pkwy, and Nostrand...altho Fulton and the "A/C" is just two SHORT blocks away ...stations before Flatbush Ave! Made that sometimes on the way to school when I was running late..really quick! For sure if it could be done it would divert a WHOLE LOT of folks from the "E/F" and possibly "J" lines in the rush hours. The cost benefit would have to be judged!
What about some of the more creative visitors to this page bumping heads into designing baseball hats with the "subway" logo (with Dave's permission) so that we can identify ourselves?
Especially with the spring and summer weather coming up!
Oh, you know what happens when things start to get into the "merchandise mode".
First the hats, then the books and t-shirts, and then "Subway Buffs and the women who love them on the next Jerry Springer":)
That's a great idea. Whenever I'm on a Transit Museum tour, I'm always wondering who are the people from SubTalk.
And how about shirts with our SubTalk names on them!!!
Yeah, it has nothing to do with "merchandising" just one simple thing to identify each other like a club/
Souds good to me. I know that by now I must have run into some fellow SubTalkers (and BusTalkers).
Wayne
Thats a great idea. Maybe that could be possible. I know i probably see lots of you on those trips. Specaly on the Low V trip. I'm usally talking to TSS Morrison before the trip starts to get some insite on the trip. I bring the radio and my son brings the Scanner. It a fun event. I'm usally in the last car when leaving Grand Central.
Before we go ahead we need to ask our beloved site host if we can do this project. We could add say a dollar or two to the cost with the extra going to site expenses.
Davwe- how about it-do we have your permission
I think it's a great idea but the "Subway" part of logo isn't mine to give away. I'll ask Jason what he thinks. The design would probably work better with the "Subway" token logo up top and "www.nycsubway.org" written out below rather than the way I have it in the banner. Easier to read, probably will look better too. Anyone know how to get embroidered patches made?
-Dave
I have arranged for some custom embroidery in the past year, both for my employer and for a model RR group. There is an initial setup charge that can get to be very expensive for a complex design; I suspect, unfortunately, that the multi-token logo would be prohibitively expensive unless it could be amortized over a thousand pieces or more. Perhaps an outline of a subway car (for all you Redbird fans out there, a red outline on a black hat might be nice) with www.nycsubway.org shadowed behind (www.[subway car with subway written on the side].org)? David, if you can get the approvals from Jason and whoever else might be needed, post it here and I will contact you offline about getting an estimate. I'm not an artist, so there will need to be some discussion in this forum of the desired logo and a volunteer to prepare a .gif file that can be used by the embroidery firm.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There may be some argument as to which car should be depicted, since most of us have our own personal favorites (R-10 for myself; slant R-40 for Wayne, etc.). However, a Redbird would be a good choice, since they seem to be loved and appreciated by almost all of us Subtalkers.
Just a thought.
If we do go with this - I guess I need to get another handle. it would be kind of boring to have a shirt or hat with "Wayne Johnson" printed on it :-).
Last night I took subway to Penn Station, LIRR to Lynbrook then N32 bus home. When boarding N32, I thought I would get a free transfer as
I was within 2:18 limit. When I dipped, the farebox deducted $1.50.
I know that when I transfer at Mott Av (Far Rock) A train to N32 it
is always a free transfer. How does the bus farebox know when to
accept a transfer from the subway. Does the driver program at certain
stops. Sounds too complicated to me. Please clarify.
The time limit for a free transfer is officially two hours. Sometimes it adds up to asnother 18 minutes but dont count on the extra time. the program is at the main computer in Brooklyn. Station agents and/or bus operators have nothing to do with the programming
The time you 'swiped in' to the metrocard system is recorded on the card (along with what subway station or what bus route) Your second swipe, the equipment reads the time/location off the card. If the what/where info allows a transfer, (ie, not a subway-subway or NB Bx1 to NB Bx2, for ecxample) a simple math equation (based on a central time check that is uploaded to the buses, and directly to the computers in the turnstiles) takes the time encoded on the metrocard and subtracts it from the current time. If the result is <2:18, you get the transfer. Otherwise, a fare is deducted. That' the simple version, I suppose. My girlfreind wrote a program that simulates the way this works for her C++ class...
-Hank
Okay, so it sounds like I should have gotten a free transfer. I was
definitely under 2:18.
Is it possible that it is set up so that transfers can
only be made to Nassau County buses from lines that
intersect with those buses? That would explain why it
would work from Far Rockaway, but not from where you boarded the train to get to Pennsylvania Station.
On second thought--that can't be either. The system can't know that you didn't take an A from Pa.Station to Far Rockaway. Could the buses somehow only accept MetroCard transfers from certain locations?
You would be surprised how much data is recorded on the MC & how big the tables are in the farebox.
Our Vault Pullers know every time they do a major update, i.e. the Probe time slows down ...
Mr t__:^)
On second thought--that can't be either. The system can't know that you didn't take an A from Pa.Station to Far Rockaway. Could the buses somehow only accept MetroCard transfers from certain locations?
There IS a "map/table" built into the system so that not ever customer gets a free Transfer.
Basically the intent is to provide a free Transfer if you're continuing a trip, i.e. going North, transfer to a connecting North or East/West line. S-o-o-o-o subway-LIRR-LI Bus wouldn't count.
At this depot we discovered that the TA brain surgeons at software central had forgotten a few legitimate transfers (they were local to express bus transfers where the customers were being charged 4.50 vs. 3.00. i.e. "Step Up fare" vs. 1.50 + 3.00). We told them ... they corrected the "table".
Mr t__:^)
From what I recall of the original Metrocard brochures, LI Bus transfer rules regarding transfers from the subway are pretty detailed.
The rules seemed to indicate that you could only transfer from subway to bus at the subway station. Once you'd made that transfer, you can transfer to certain other LI Bus routes, but not all. One example that I know of is that you can't go Subway to Jamaica, N4 to Lynbrook and then N32. I have no idea why. (someone once speculated that it was because the N32 already has a subway connection at Far Rock).
I have tried to go subway-LIRR-LI Bus a few times (N15 at Rockville Centre, N79 at Mineola, N32 at Lynbrook) -- it's never worked.
In the case of the N15 and the N79, they may be programmed not to accept subway transfers without an intervening LI Bus transfer. On the N32, it would seem that there must be some way that the card reader knows that it isn't at Far Rock.
As I theroized in another part of this thread ... I feel that the "Free Transfer" routes are programmed into the Farebox "Tables". Your comments seem to add to this theory.
Mr t__:^)
P.S. Understand that once you get the first free Transfer, just ask the friendly bus driver for a paper/mag Transfer and you COULD keep riding a bus all the way to Montauk, such a deal !!!
Mr t__:^)
I saw a tease this morning that FOX News At Noon is going to have a piece on subway cleanliness.
I suppose that the TA is finally going to address the trash problem on the F train which has been hip deep in litter and spills for longer than anyone can remember. I don't ride every line but think most people would agree that the F train is far and away the most neglected as far as cleaning goes and now that the reliablility of the service along the F line has fallen into such steep decline, it seems the TA has been left with no choice but to throw F riders some kind of bone.
If anyone has a chance to watch FOX at noon, please post a critique.
Thanks.
ill be coming into town this week...is there any newsstand that reliably has the Funpass in the WTC???
Thanx...
I've found the FunPasses at the stand on the PATH fare-entry level (it's the island stand... not the one next to the escalators).
Todd--I bought a few about a month ago at the Hudson News Stand next to the escalators. I guess they both have them.
Hi Guys,
Just wanted to know if there were any subway fantrips scheduled for 1999? The MTA used to do this in the 1980s every now and then but such trips have become less and less frequent. Though, I can't understand why since most of those fantrips would occur on Sundays when service levels were reasonably low servicewide. Also, does anyone know how much a fantrip would cost?
Cheers,
MIKE
For subway fan trips, check out the Nostalgia Trains run on occasion by the Transit Museum. Their web site is at http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/museum/index.html
It's not all-encompassing - the ERA usually runs one each year in the fall, and it's possible that someone else might arrange for one - but it's a start.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Trip costs range from $25 for the Nostalgia Train to $40+ for the Railway Preservation Corporation's Lo-V Fantrips. There have been 3 Lo-V fantrips in the past 3 years all during September. I'm sure there will be another one this year.
--Mark
I should have asked this in my last message....does anyone know if there will be any R-10, R-16 or R-30 fantrips in 1999? If so, can someone please tell me the date and what the cost will be. I would be on the next plane up to NYC!
Cheers,
MIKE
There aren't any R10, R16, or R30 cars in "service" for fan trips. There are 2 R10's and several R16's still around but they're not in good enough shape to run. I heard some talk of a possible R1/9 trip with some of the RPA cars but that's just a rumor. Coney Island has also begun to restore R4 491(ex 401) for possible future trips. The Low-v's will probably make a trip or two this year. I heard the D-types are heading in for work; maybe the Standards will finally come out of restoration for a fan trip...
I **know** for a fact that there are R-10, R16 and R-30 trains hidden somewhere in the system. But no one wants to fess up and tell us where. Could someone "anonymously" post the whereabouts of some of these subway trains. I found two R-16s over by the Coney Island yards off Shell Rd (??) or was it Stillwell Avenue? They were painted red- same shade as the IRT redbirds. But where are the rest? And I'm not talking about the yellow worktrains.
Cheers,
MIKE
Hey Mike These is few Old Subway Cars Hidden at Yards. There is only 5 R16 and i don't know there any R16 somewhere at Yards. #6305 & #6339 are at Coney Island Yard, #6387 are at NYTM, #6398 are at TMNY, and 6452 are at used to be P.S.248 at Brooklyn now NYCT Training Facility. R10 is at Coney Island Yard, and #3189 is at Pitkin Yard for Training Car. R30 #8392 is at Coney Island Yard and #8506 is at NYTM. I don't know there any more R10,R16 and R30 subway cars out there.
Heh. You guys must have the same dreams I do. Only mine is the LIRR has a secret fleet of MP-54s that they use when I'm not around ;) I know it's a dream too, because in the dream, when I finnaly find the fleet, it's in pristine shape =)
On monday while working on the 4 line I saw the following:
While passing the Concourse yard, from the elevated structure I saw what looked like 2 graffiti(sp? sorry) cover R 10's. This was at the very North end of the yard in the area were they are storing wrecked
R 62's (or are they R 62a's?).
Thats a R 62 witch was desroyed in the 14 St. wreck.
The cars at Concourse are R12's or R14's, one of them might be 5851.
Why those trains sitting at Concourse Yard? Are those cars going to scrapped or repair?
Wow....those look like R-12s to me (don't recall the R-14 series) circa 1947 or so. Shorter version of the R-10. Wow- I have never seen these cars at the Concourse yard. Too bad their condition is so poor. Perhaps the MTA wouldn't mind giving those cars away (for a few bucks, of course). They are obviously not worth salvage for the MTA- but to others, hmmmmmmmm. I have visions.....
Cheers,
MIKE
Those are not R-10s. They are R-12s or R-14s. I don't remember which.
There is an old story about an NYCTA employee some years ago who kept moving the Low-V cars around from yard to yard under cover of darkness to keep them from being scrapped. Whether or not this is true, I don't know but I think the story is in Stan Fischler's first book. In any event, there are few New Yorkers today who look at the Redbirds as a nostalgia item, but in 10 or 20 years they will be remembered fondly as the 'old' trains. The main line cars from R-17 to R-36 are probably the biggest fleet of standardized subway cars ever built. Except for paint and some details, they looked alike, MU'ed with each other and served well for forty years. They also could MU with the various cars built for Flushing too, the R-12, R-14, R-15, R-33WF and R-36WF. Hopefully a train of these compatible cars will be saved for the Museum Fleet. An early single unit(R-17 to R-22), an R-33WF, and a pair each of R-26, R-29, R-33 and R-36WF would make an interesting museum train exhibiting the subtle changes which took place as these cars evolved. With the exception of the early car, all of these are still in service and could be selected by condition for preservation.
By comparison, the R-16, R-27 and R-30 never were as dominant on their division as the Redbirds. Standardization was lost with the arrival of the R-32, and each successive order was altered in some way until the arrival of the R-46 which was a close match for the R-44. Thus while the B-division had variety and small groups of cars, the A-division had standardization. The one thing I miss from the early MTA days is the Blue Stripe. It made the cars a little brighter in appearance.
Well, you already have four such cars at the Transit Museum, each in its original livery. And they're all coupled together! Voila!!
I never missed the MTA blue stripe, because I associate it with the decline of maintenance and the rise of graffiti on the subways in ther 1970s.
On the other hand, I wouldn't mind seeing the World's Fair bluebird paint scheme on the 7 one more time before they retire the R-33/36s
I thought the silver-and-blue scheme was nice, since once the older equipment had been repainted, everything looked uniform. It was unfortunate that the graffiti epidemic hit shortly after the repainting began. Deferred maintenance only compounded things.
A friend at work (x-DivA Conductor) says he heard that cracks are being found in the underbody's (not the trucks) of R44/46's. Anyone hear anyting about this?
I didn't get a chance to follow up further with him.
Sorry Dave, didn't see the thread about this down below. Dang I've been gone too long.....
Ugh
I wonder what type of turnstiles everyone likes on subtalk? I like the 1922 General Electric turnstiles with big wood spoked wheel used on the IRT. I call them the "crashing bahemoths". They make a neat thuck noise when the token is deposited in the separate box with the counter. These turnstiles should have been retrofitted with a separate add-on box with a Cubic Western swipe reader. They need to be at Fulton Street and Wall Street stations on the Lexington Avenue IRT for historical value of the station. NEAT STUFF!!!!
Weren't those turnstiles also used on the IND as well? I liked them, too. Roosevelt Ave. still had the old wooden turnstiles until only a few years ago. Even the station signs above the platforms were still original until recently. Too bad they weren't kept.
The IND turnstiles were different that the 1922 GE powered off the third rail.
What is your favorite abandoned station?
City Hall
Although hopefully not permanently abandoned, my favorite is the BMT Canal St. station for the Manhattan Bridge tracks. I have a lot of early memories waiting there for the Brighton Express to go to Brighton Beach.
As far as abandoned elevated stations - the upper level of Broadway-Myrtle.
my favorite is the ninth ave (bklyn) lower level culver shuttle stop boarded the culver shuttle here many times in the late 60s and early seventies until it was discontinued in 75 also crocodile dundee movie was filmed here...
Worth Street. Buried down there somewhere, Heins & LaFarge's original cartouches still adorn the walls.
Wayne
I have a great fondness for the 91st Street Station. Back in the 1970's when NYC was too broke to pay for public schools (we had a half day every Monday and Friday), and Law enforcement (you remember the '70s don't you?), back when the Upper West Side was filled with vacant lots and 2 story buildings along Broadway. Back when Amsterdam Avenue was dangerous, we use to poke around down there and marvle at the wasted past of a city that once was but could never be.
the one that billy batson used to become captain marvel.
For some reason there is not that much notice on a major service disruption this weekend. There is no No. 1 service from 96 St to 137 St.
So No. 1 trains will run from 137 St. to 242 St. on the Bronx end.
Then the other service is No. 1 trains will run from 148 Street-Lenox Term. to South Ferry. To make things more intresting the No. 2&3 trains will make all local stops from 96 St. to Chambers St.
This sounds like a very crazy G0. Also some crews are doing 4 trips out of 148 St. I thank god only have 3 trips
Sounds like trackwork from 96 to near 100th. When I see the official GO summary I'll post more info.(from 103 to 137 there are 3 tracks so it has to the stretch from 96 to near 100th)
Last weekend they did some Electric work North of 116 St on the Downtown Local.
Please note theres a change in this GO. There is NO No. 1 service from 137 St.-BWAY to South Ferry. The No. 3 Line service is spilt. There will Be No. 3 trains running local from 148 ST-Lenox Term to New Lots Ave with regular 9 car trains. Also the second service is from 148 ST. Lenox Term. local to South Ferry running 10 cars with the No. 1 line cars with No. 1 crews.
Satuarday on my tour I found that the No. 3 signs confussed lot of people. Between South Ferry and 96 ST. People keeped asking wheres the No. 1 train or wheres the local. Is this an Exp. Does this train go to Brooklyn. The Plublic Adress Systerm was working but the passendgers just did't get it. To make thing worst some New Lots bound No.3 trains were reroute Exp. and when you have two No.3 train making a connection it got more confussing. One Conductor saying "This is a Brooklyn bound No. 3 train" and the other "This is a South Ferry bound No.3 train". that was a sample of what it was like.
Please note theres a change in this GO. There is NO No. 1 service from 137 St.-BWAY to South Ferry. The No. 3 Line service is spilt. There will Be No. 3 trains running local from 148 ST-Lenox Term to New Lots Ave with regular 9 car trains. Also the second service is from 148 ST. Lenox Term. local to South Ferry running 10 cars with the No. 1 line cars with No. 1 crews.
Satuarday on my tour I found that the No. 3 signs confussed lot of people. Between South Ferry and 96 ST. People keeped asking wheres the No. 1 train or wheres the local. Is this an Exp. Does this train go to Brooklyn. The Plublic Adress Systerm was working but the passendgers just did't get it. To make thing worst some New Lots bound No.3 trains were reroute Exp. and when you have two No.3 train making a connection it got more confussing. One Conductor saying "This is a Brooklyn bound No. 3 train" and the other "This is a South Ferry bound No.3 train". that was a sample of what it was like.
All in a days work David. No matter what signs you would put on the trains during that kind of a G.O., people would still be confused.
I'm just glad I was'nt there. ;-)
I worked the 5 this weekend and they have split service G.O. there also. There were no problems, and things were great for the crews. Regular crew had no shuttles to make at the end of there regular trips because of single track operation North of 180 St. There's one dedicated shuttle train and seperate crews. This caused 30 min wait on Dyre line. Customers were not happy to say the least.
Something that really irritates the hell out of me whenever there's a GO like this -- SO MANY PASSENGERS ARE IGNORANT!!!!! THEY DON'T KNOW THE FIRST DAMN THING AS TO HOW THE SUBWAYS ARE RUN AND WHY THERE ARE GOs. !!! 9 out of 10 don't even know what a G.O. is!!!
(General Order).
All they know is that service on their line is messed up and they are inconvenienced. A classic example happened when I got off the #2 train yesterday at Chambers Street to change to the South Ferry 3 train -- I overheard two people (totally confused, mind you), blaming the service disruption on MAYOR GIULIANI.
How more arrogant can a person get?!?!?!
Yes I worked the No. 5 line during those past G.O.'s. The people just get mad waiting for a shuttle. Did you ever work the No. 2 line before the Lenox REHAB. Going from E 241 to Flatbush was a nightmare.
My first day on the road as a Conductor was 01/06/97. I think the first time I worked the #2 was during the Invert. My first month was almost exclusivly on the #6. The first day of the Invert I was on the platform at 96st(Westside). Everybody was confused, including me!
When you say nightmare, #2 line pre invert, would you please elaborate.
The 30 min wait between shuttles on Dyre stinks, and it was cold this weekend. At 180st this weekend I was called an A**hole, Jacka**, Bald headed f**k, and countless other mumbelings. For every shuttle, 3 #5 trains terminated at 180st. If you happen to be the Conductor on the third train, Watch out. The costomers from the first and second train were pretty hot under the collar. I just ignored there "Pleasantries" and paid attention to my train which I was cleaning out for a relay.
One guy yelled out from the crowd, "Are we expected to stand here all night?" I could'nt hold my mouth any longer. I turned to him and said, "No sir, you are not expected to stand here all night. During these times when we are upgrading and rebuilding your transit system we do appreciate your patiance and cooperation, if you have another question it would be my pleasure to assist you". People started to smile and laugh, most had seen the abuse I took walking down the platform. Now while walking back, most must have thought I would've snaped.
So now who is the real A**hole.....
What I went by nightmare was Holding doors from 3 Ave to 96 St some stops waiting 3 mins for them to let the doors go. Then 96 St if that was your last stop they yell "HELL NO WE WON'T GO". So in lost my cooland said Ok I'll wait in till hell frezes over I get payed to wait for you to get off so this train can go back Brooklyn.
I also worked the No. 6 Line in 1997-98
I have 208 Daily and 210-6 Sat last pick i had
212-6 Daily and 202-6 SA
Ok David, you were talking about the period during the Invert. The first few months were a nightmare. Particularly during the time of the day when the whole invert. inverted, around 12 in the afternoon. They had some real cool jobs during the invert. There were jobs in the PM were you had a Put in at 96 st to flat. then back to 241st, and you were done. The AM had the same jobs just in the opposite.
And boy were those AM jobs fun during the first few weeks. Nothing like getting a train to 96th St and telling everyone (again) that this is the last stop, there is no Bronx service from here, go back to Times Sq. and shuttle over to catch the 2.
Sounds like some good PR (public relations) work on your part. What did that guy have to say after your spiel?
There are times when I have to deal with impatient and irate customers in my line of work, and while no one has ever cussed me out, my first reaction would be, "I'm no worse than you."
The guy said nothing, and I just walk on back down the platform to the crew room, hopeing no one said anything else. Which they did'nt. If you were to say "I'm no worse than you" and confrontation ensued, you would be wrong. I know it's difficult, but the TA does not want you escalating a situation. I live it every day. I am not perfect, but I have read there Blue Book (instructions related to customer relations) and they want us take abuse in stride and to say your sorry as often as possible.
When these situations occure, I think about the almost $20.00 hr I will be making and do I want to lose a day or more of pay because of this IDIOT! I say no. Then I think Blue Book: Yes sir, No sir, I am very sorry sir, can I help you with alternate travel sir..........I think you get the idea.
When you put it that way, you're right. You don't want to lower yourself to their level. One of our guiding priciples in my company is respect for the individual. While it doesn't mean be nice to people, it also doesn't mean be rude and obnoxious. Fortunately, the number of individuals who do hurl gutter epithets constitutes a very small minority.
If I may step into this with another perspective...I am a high school and ASA softball umpire, and one of the first they tell us about handling arguments is: If you answer an irate person with a civilized answer, the irate person usually has no idea how to handle it. Also, we are told to count to ten, because usually again the irate person will run out of things to yell by then (USUALLY....). I have been a working umpire for 8 years now, and I think Ive only ejected about 2 people the whole time......
How would you deal with a Leo Durocher type of personality? How about Earl Weaver? I know I'm getting off base here (no pun intended).
I too worked this G.O. People do not listen. I would tell them there is no number 1 and thery'd ask for the 9! I'd tell them there is no number 1 and no number 9 and they'd say "where is the number 1".
I would announce each arriving train-reeling off the list of stops and still they'd say "Does this go to 96th street?"and oh yes- sometimes the tower would slip a train in on the express track and they'd sday that we dont know what we are talking about! Ah, Life!
Face it, NYC has plenty of sheep and sheep are just plain stupid. If you take a sheep and turn it over it can not roll over-it will literally die that way while a dog or cat will roll over.
Some people did get the message. I even had some who actually told some of the sheep! (and yes, some of the sheep did move!)
That is part of working with the public and yes, I do enjoy my job. I enjoy working G.O. jobs because I can help customers one on one rather than behind glass.
where you on the Plat at 96 St or were you on the road?
Anyway I couldn't put that any better then you did it was real messed up and Times Sqaure mad it worst.
I was on the platforms at Times Square. I spent most of the time uptown but I also did Downtown. The ower did not help matters when they sent some "surprise" trains down the express track.
I did get a thrill Saturday Night/Sunday AM- I saw a track crew remopve and replace a section of rail--fascinating. They first used a huge wrench to loosen the bolts, knocked out the retaining clips, sawed through the joint and then in a tug of war lifted the new rail into place with choreographed moves like the Rockettes and then reassembled the rail. My hat off to the track crew (and their supervision for letting me watch while I was doing my own job and for ansawering my questions.)
You hit the nail right on the head - people do not listen, plain and simple. On the one hand, you almost want to say, "What part of that don't you understand?" Then again, you'd probably get written up for saying something like that, so it's not worth it.
BTW, I don't suppose the track crew formed a chorus line once they were finished and started kicking their legs up in unison the way the Rockettes do at the end of each and every dance routine they've ever done (Yes, I've seen the Rockettes at Radio City Music Hall a few times).
That they did not do! They went on to another section of rail. By the way, the rail section weighed only 1300 pounds!
Why do sheep need shepards? Because they are STUPID, will eat the grass down to the roots, and then stand there and starve. The shepard's main job is to move the sheep around so they can't eat the grass down (and kill the grass), and also protect them from the preditators.
Just like some humans.
I've learned something after almost 20 years on this job: Don't come to work looking for intelligent life because there is none here.
I know that's cynical, but you really have to let it go in one ear and out the other. It is not worth losing your job over somebody who is really complaining to your uniform, not to you personally.
Thats the exact same attitude I try and take every day. I let them have there say, and then I ask, "Is there anything else I can help you with?" It's not easy, and when I start to lose my cool I think, I like this job, I'm a professinal(glad spelling is not critical) and I'm not earning $6.00 an hour.
Oh yea, every now and then someone will ask "what are you a wise ass?"
I will say, "absolutly not sir, it is my desire to assist you in all area that I can control." That will usually shut them up.
On Monday 2/15 I rode the #3 from 96/Broadway to Park Place. The conductor on my train (left 96 @ approx 11:30 AM) made excellent annoucements at every stop - "#3 making all local stops to New Lots - change at Chambers St. for South Ferry train." Most customers seemed to understand the GO.
Also - there was am armada of buses waiting on the NB side along Broadway to swallow up #1 customers - so nobody was waiting long to board an uptown bus. Interesting to note that many buses' SB destination signs read "#1 Subway to 96th St" (did not notice a similar NB sign). Apparently one advantage to the digital signs is that almost any destination can be programmed in.
Two questions:
(1) What work was being done that required suspension of #1 service between 96 and 137?
(2) How come the NYC Transit web site made no mention of this in its summary of service disruptions?
Anyone out there have the answers to the above?
While this question is directed to our resident Railroad Clerk (subway-buff@mindspring.com) anyone else should feel free to respomd if you have information.
In the course of an average weekday during your shift, approximately what percent of total fares are still paid with the token. I am talking about what is deposited in the turnstiles not how many tokens you might sell.
To any Bus Drivers out there - on one of your averages runs what percent of cash fare is paid by the token?
First: our title is Station Agent.
Tokens vary but on the average in manhattan it is 65-80% MetroCard. In some stations such as East Broadway (F), 36thSt (N/M/R) the token sales are near 50%.
Some stations I have worked (I cant remember which ones) still sell more tokens (Pulled from the wheels) then cards.
Another item to consider is token sales--what I push out of the booth. During AM and PM tours (Shifts) we empty the wheels 2-3 times during our tour plus when we start. Those tokens are then re-sold to someone else.(meaning we might pull the same tokens from the wheels 2-3 times during our tour. I have seen tokens with colored nail polish, paint, etc. and have seen them 2-3 times during my tour.
I hope this answers your question.
I get the general idea.
Getting rid of the tokens in a year or so is going to be tough for the TA in some stations.
Thanks to all
An interesting twist. Station Agents no longer work in a "Token Booth". We now work in a "Station Service Booth."
I asked the question yesterday in training about tokens phaseout and the answer was that "they" do not know when the token will go away.
We have been discussing our workload--we now have something else to do! When we get deliveries-be it MetroCards, Tokens, Senior Citizen, Disabled or Block Tickets we must use our terminal to issue a receipt to the delivery person. If they deliver tickets and cards and tokens/money we have three receipts!
We also now have to enter our closing info into the terminal or face discipline if we wipe out the info!
At some point they claim they'll do away with our manual paperwork but like the death of tokens I'll believe it only when it happens.
***opinions expressed in this post are my own and not those of MTA or NYCT****
Based on useage, i.e. customer deposits ... at this DOT "private" depot ...
- Cash, about 20%
- Tokens, about 2 % (tokens used to be equal to cash)
- MC (all forms), about 80 %
As you might expect, it's more important that the farebox records the MC dips then it used to be ... well here anyway, at the TA they don't care quite so much since they already have the money.
Don't jump all over me on this ... I mean that the TA bus folks care more about service, while we have to care equally about service & farebox operation :-(
Mr t__:^)
You may want to cosider TA bus revenue to base metrocard use on. With the DOT routes, on weekends and non-rush hours, the fare is one dollar payable with coins. So, you if you are not going to transfer to a subway or an express bus, pay with change and ask for a paper metrocard transfer to another local bus.
Paul, I assume that all the DOT "privates" fareboxes work the same as ous, i.e. at 10 AM the farebox AUTOMATICALLY changes the local "fare set" to ONE dollar vs. 1.50. It is also called the "shoppers special". From 3 to 7 PM it goes back to full fare. At dispatch central, in our depot, we broadcast a reminder to the drivers. There's also a "off peek" fare on the express routes. Now I have ASSUMED that you still get a free Transfer to the subway when you pay the dollar by MetroCard. If this wasn't the case folks would have to pay twice & I'm sure Rudy would have heard an earfull about it.
P.S. You can't get a paper/mag Transfer from an Express bus, i.e. the farebox won't issue one, so you have to use a MetroCard there to get a free Transfer.
P.P.S. We still carry some of those long paper things for folks that want to transfer between our Express buses in Queens.
Mr t__:^)
Paul is correct & I'm wrong, sorry about that.
I actually called upstairs to confirm what I thought then made the mis-statement, then the dispatcher saw me & corrected himself.
So, you have to pay in cash off-peek to get the Shoppers Special fare
Mr t__:-(
Please tell me there is a good set of plans for this beast available. I REALLY want to build a set. Photos anyone?
Thank you.
There has been some discussion today about our old friends the R-16's.
There was an incident back in either the late 60's or early 70's when an R-16 from the Concourse Yard joined up with some R-17's for a run on the Jerome Av Line. The train apparently made it as far as the Kingsbridge Rd Station and managed to scrape the platform a bit before the crew realized the mistake.BTW the R-16's managed to cover quite a few bases back before Chrystie St. They provided all service on the #15, all pm service on the # 14 as well as the occasional run on the #10 or #16. It was a real treat to see them there because it was the only time you got to see the #10 or #16 signs displayed.
I had heard about an R-10 mixed with some R-12/14's being brought up the ramp onto the line, and a rumor anout the R-16 being tested on the Pelham line (must have been trucked to pelham yard.
I had just asked on another thread whether signals and through-spans block the wider cars as well as the platforms.
The Multisectionals also displayed #10, 13, and 16 signs depending on which route they ran on. I read in Subway Cars of the BMT that their sign mechanisms didn't work properly in later years; consequently, they often displayed incorrect markings.
Anybody catch the story on Grand Central Tonight On 60 mins. II?
It basically showed the "bad" Grand Central Story from 10 years ago on homless, violence, etc.. Then They showed the "new" GCT.
One thing they metioned that all the homeless are gone, but there not.....they just moved to the GCT subway station. Check it out any night.
Yes I saw that and could not beleve the lies I heard about the Homeless being taken off the street. That one homeless man looked like the one I saw Panhandleing on a Uptown No. 1 at Times Sqaure. Thats no suprise since the No. 1 Line seems to have more homeless then any other IRT line I've worked on.
I agree, it seems like the 1 trains have a lot of homless on them, also, the last few years it seems like coney island is getting alot more as well.
Can anyone tell me what elevated station in New York has the most
original and ornate features (station houses, stairways, railings,
etc.)?
Right now, the 207th Street station on the #1 line would rank right up there. Lots of gingerbread, fancy ironwork etc. Similar style stations are 125th Street and 215th Street, both on the #1.
Wayne
An you know the new Logo is MTA? I don't really like the new Logo but i like the old Logo like big M Logo. Before the is was big TA Logo. Well the best Logo is big M Logo and i really hate MTA Logo. I don't understand why MTA spent money on new jerk Logo with MTA Logo. From Big letter M to middle T to small A .
In the Ny Daily News for Thursday February 11, page 28 and page 29, there is an article on the subways losing the war on dirt.
The dirtiest prize is the E train and the cleanest is the #7 train.
After reading this article your thoughts are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
I hope this subject is ok.
Also there is an article in the Thursday February 11 NY Post page 7 on the cleanest and dirtiest subways in NYC.
Your thoughts are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
I agree with the MTA that the Straphangers are not truley able gauge the amount of grime in the subways. My line, the D, is usually filthy but last weekend it was spotless. If the Straphangers had checked it last weekend it would have been voted the cleanest even though it's not. Probably the cleanest are the cars which are used the least, or for the fewest stops like the shuttle trains and the dirtiest are the ones that run 24 hours with the most people. The subways could definitely be cleaner but there are more pressing issues (2nd Ave. subway).
Are there more pressing issues? It seems to me that the cheapest and easiest thing to fix is the cleanliness of the subways. All it will take is a few more personnelle on each end of the line to go through and clean it, five minutes on each end is plenty of time. I'd imagine that it would be cheaper than running more trains. I get the N train coming right out of Ditmars, it is often dirty when I get on. Clearly it had not even gotten a once-over.
Obviously you exaggerate. It would take far more than 5 minutes in each terminus to clean the trains to an acceptable level. With the strength of the unions, no doubt the cost to keep the trains clean is only slightly less than the cost to build the Second Avenue subway.
Sometimes cleaning the trains is not simply a matter of sweeping and mopping. If you doubt me, take a trip to Parsons-Archer Station any night between 1Am and 5 AM. Upstairs you have the E line (10 cars) and downstairs you have the J line (8 cars). You would think that if there were 25% more cleaners upstairs than downstairs, both trains would be equally clean. Not hardly the case. You can count them if you want to but there are more homeless on the E trains than there are passengers on the J. The homeless come on with foul smelling bundles and fouler smelling clothing. They make cleaning the cars so difficult that some trains do not get adequately cleaned durring the night. By the AM, some cars smell so badly that some people opt to stand in a crowded car rather than sit in one that smells.
Okay, the subways are dirtier. But then, they are also being used by more people. Why does it always seem as if the TA is blamed as the cause of the dirt? Do we want the trains taken out of service more so they can be cleaned? They are swept at the end of the lines, aren't they? What more can the TA do? Maybe we should do something about the cause of the dirt---the inconsiderate passengers who make the mess.
Daily News:
Subways Losing War on Grime
Post:E-Gad, These Subways Are Filthy
There is a very good reason the 'E' train is so dirty. It's a haven for homeless; board one at Jamaica Center any morning and you'll see. It never goes outside; it runs all night; the R-32s that run on it have bench seats, so it's easier to sleep on; you don't get thrown off at either terminal (a la F at 179th; G at Smith-9th; D at 205th; G/R at 71st-Continental). The '7' has similar specifications, except that between underground terminals there are many elevated stops. I am a daily '7' rider and find much homeless paraphanelia every morning at Main Street.
I disagree with the article, as I said in a post on cleanliness yesterday, The F train is far and away the most unclean. The reason for this is Neglect. The TA refuses to clean it. Especially at night when the trains are hip deep in trash, food, vomit and spills. The only other lines might even fall into the same league as the F is because the trash piles so high that the flux of passengers can't help but kick bottles and other debris onto the platforms (which are also never cleaned) when the exit the trains. I'm serious. The doors open and the trash spills onto the platform! The filth situation has been unchainged in the 8 years I have been riding the F. People seem to be complaining a little more these days, but I believe that this is due to the drastic decline in service the line has seen in the last 15 months. Delays, Delays, Delays, Waiting 15 minutes for an F during rush hour (without an anouncement) and then having 3 or 4 trains come in the space of 4 minutes and all of them too full of passengers to even get on. What's more the F often goes express either without an anouncement or, with an inaudable announcement. Not to mention the fact that the PA system is usually turned up to a deafaning screach and passengers must suffer a continuous high pitched for their entire ride. The F is the most unreliable line during rush hour and at night it is far worse. Oh yes, did I mention the trash?
Don't go complaining about the F, you guys have it great. When I'm waiting on the 6th Avenue line for my D train I almost always see to F's go by first. And late at night, the D train is twice as crowded as the F. In addition the D train crawls over to Brooklyn while the F speeds across the river. Finally, you F riders have those brand new trains with the digital signs. Nothing like that on the D. So don't you complain, the rest of us have it much worse.
Actually the D train R-68s (1986) are 11 years younger than the F line R-46s (1975).
The city needs cleaners to clean the subway cars, but i disagree to put work employment program (WEP) to clean the subway cars because they don't belong to MTA and never took the test? I took the test 7 years ago and i pass but i been on waiting list almost 7 years now. I am very piss off with the mayor because of budget cut and i don't think (WEP) shouldn't work for MTA because they lazy and i know how they are. I am sick of tired of hearing about budget but i know they have money and didn't want to spent it to hire more cleaner. Look they hired bus driver,more police, fix on the street and why hired more clearner? Hey city don't be cheap. P.S. i never vote for Rudy because i never trust him and i think he the worst mayor in whole new york city.
Interesting that the Daily News article shows you a picture of the #7 train (I'd recognize those picture windows anywhere) but the caption for the picture infers that it's an E train :)
--Mark
Actually, it can vary from train to train on the same line. Today, #5408 on the "A" was quite clean, while on the same line later, #4041 was an absolute pig sty, food, soda cans, beer cans, etc on the floor. I saw a clean "E" AND a filthy "E" at West 4 one right after the other. The filthy "E", #3540-3541, 3938-3939 etc. all needed a good cleaning. The other trains I rode on today ("Z"s, "J"s, an "R", some "B"s, a "D" and the R110B "C" weren't that bad. "J" #4912-4913 had some ground-in dirt on the floor; maybe they can go over it with the buffer next time it's in ENY yard. There was no litter, however.
The "R" #6011 had litter but the floor looked OK (no stains).
Are the homeless keeping the "E" from being cleaned. I see posters up
that say "This doesn't have to be the end of the line" (staged photo showing 'homeless lady', shot at Court Street), touting an outreach program. What happened to that noble idea? Did that, too, go the way of all flesh?
Wayne
The homeless like the E because it is all underground......that business about homeless outreach is all lip service as the cops don't want to get near those people due to their foul smell would get THEM sick also. You ought to see what a hard time the train crews have getting those homeless off the trains when it is lay up time.....It is hard to keep those E trains clean because they don't lay over too long at the terminals & Parsons-Archer is a very busy place: A mopped floor gets walked on right away and the train goes down the road before the floor has a chance to dry.....the M probably came in as the second dirtiest because there are NO car cleaners assigned between 3PM and 11 PM. There used to be just one cleaner assigned to Met. Ave. on that tour who used to mop spills, vomit and sweep but that job was eliminated.
Lip service,eh? Boy that makes me MAD! Forgive me if I'm sounding like an old hippie liberal, but if they SAY they have a program to combat homeless in the system, and they ADVERTISE it as such, they ought to have such a program in place. The homeless do not belong in the subway, no matter what their circumstances are. I realize there are too many social/political/governmental/behavioral/etc. issues underlying this problem, but if they mean what they say, they should be prepared to back it up with the appropriate action.
Wayne
There is an old homeless man who uses crutches who insists on riding the M shuttle all night. He needs help. He stinks up the cars. He curses me out several times a week because if he is on my trains, I have to get him off twice since the shuttle starts out with 4 trains and goes down to 2 after 1 AM. The cops don't want to be bothered. This guy urinates all over himself and on the floors. We should call the cops you say? Then the cops have a foul attitude with us and the old man comes right back the next nite. The merging of the TA & NYPD forces has made uniformed police presence nil. I think NYPD feels the subway is one large shelter. I wonder how many "homeless squads" are in the Transit Bureau?
Unless I mis-read the post, I think what Bill meant was that there is a program but they are not to be found where they are needed. They seem to avoid the areas like Parsons-Archer terminal.
The homeless also like the No.1 line. In the early hours on the morning there are homeless in every car! Once I saw 6 homeless laying down in the operating car. It seems like they go to sleep between 96 St and Van Courtlandt then panhandle from 96 to 34 st. Then relax from 34 to South Ferry. Two Satuarday's ago i had a homeless person harass my Conductor. So I called Control at Houston St. They said "Blow for police in route". I get to Times Sqaure no cop. The person got off at 72 Street on his own. Now i know if i have a serious problem just sit and wait for the Police regardless of what Control Center Sez. Also I carry a scanner with the Transit Police channels and Police Dispatchor never reported the problem over the air.
I agree with you David - if that were me running that train I would have locked it up tight and started the 3-3's right then and there. These b******s they think society owes them something.
Wayne
Ah, but wait Wayne. The signal for police is long-short-long-short, and Control Center tells us to signal. But alas, the cops were never told in the academy what the signal is! But in my own negative way I'll say this: If they knew the signal, they would probably go the other way!
See my post from yesterday about subway cleanliness.
I read the article this morning and noticed that more or less the expresses are dirtier than the locals.
Anyway, I think all of that comes down to the riders.The people who have the cleaner subways probably have clean streets and homes in their neighborhoods.They respect the way they get around I guess.
Before delving into the rest of the postings in this thread, let me try to clarify the report data. The data was taken from the Passenger Environment Surveys which are done monthly. This was the data compiled throughout 1998. The E line, which was rated (a very embarrassing) worst is a lot cleaner now than it was at the beginning of the year. The data really gives a mean rather than an accurate reading.
A friend of mine has a question. How come a person cannot transfer from the uptown #6 train at Bleecker St to a B,D,F and Q train at Broadway-Lafayette and vice-versa.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Because of the way the platforms are aligned with the IND mezzanine. The southbound Bleeker St platform was extended to the south, enableing the BOT to just break down a wall to connect it to the IND. The Northbound platform was extended to the north, and would require a passageway be dug from the north end of the southbound platform to what is the south end of the northbound platform. Not as easy, since it requires digging under 4 in-service tracks without interrupting service too much, or as cheap as breaking down a wall.
-Hank
I transfer from the D/Q to the uptown 6 every morning. It cuts about 5-10 minutes from my commute to the Grand Central area.
Just use an unlimited ride card and it doesn't cost any extra! And it gives you a break from the underground for a minute. I just wish there were a decent coffee place at the corner.
You can transfer using an unlimited ride card, but it still would be better to have a direct transfer, eliminating the up, down and re-swipe. I think it would be worth it to move the northbound platform to the south, even though this would but it close to Spring Street, which also has a northbound platform which is further north than the southbound station.
In a less political world, maybe they would build a brand new station right at Houston, with entrances on both sides of Houston for each neighborhood and right over the B/D/Q/F, and eliminate both Bleeker and Spring, which are very close together. I'll bet the savings from having one less station to man would pay for the improvement. Moreover, with real estate what it is these days, they could probably rent the unused stations out.
Houston St. from Sixth Ave. to the East River is essentially the `newest' street in lower Manhattan, having been widened out after the IRT's Lafayette St. line (Elm St. back then) and the BMT's Broadway lines were built. That's why you have the unusual situation of no stations on Houston. By the time the IND came along, Houston St. had been expanded to its present width, I believe as a way to connect east side traffic to the newly-built Holland Tunnel. That's way there's no northbound 6 transfer (or N/R transfer for that matter) at Broadway-Lafayette.
Why the TA went with the IND-style `off-center' platforms when they expanded Spring, Bleeker and Astor I don't know. Maybe some of the city transit engineers actually liked the 42nd St-Eighth Ave. station design.
I think is has to do with the buildings along Lafayette St. The line twists and turns all the way from Brooklyn Bridge to 14st, and since the line was opened in 1904, I'm sure many buildings were built that abut the underground (or in some cases, are atop) line.
-Hank
I submitted some photographs of Substation 21 on Willow Place in Brooklyn Heights to be posted on nycsubway.org. I know all will enjoy when and if it gets posted.
The pictures will be posted. Please be patient. Dave is very busy and has many projects waiting to be added. Substation 21 is on the list.
Well lets place blame where it lies... it's more along the lines of "I'm a complete idiot and forgot to meet 'Buff to pick up the photos last night". Sorry 'Buff :(
-Dave
Instead of running hundreds of buses to Manhattan a day, why doesn't the MTA just provide a shuttle connection between SIR and an super express service to Manhattan. Broadway has open capacity via the never use middle tracks (Queensbridge shuttle won't be affected much)and it connects to major lines that distribute passengers to Manhattan. By doing this, they can learn to run trains at a higher speed so they won't have to use as many units. Buses can be reconfigured to act as feeders from Grasmere and only the necessary high-volume express buses need to go to Manhattan (ie. X1,X10,X17,X22[OOPS, most people don't know about that South Shore route under consideration]). If the Manhattan Bridge could be resignaled to allow trains to cross faster than pedestrians, everyone can benefit from this change.
ALL the SI express buses are 'high-volume' at this point. On many trips even the MCI buses are now filled to capacity. Using buses as feeders to the N/R trains would only cause more congestion on the already congested BMT 4th Avenue - Manhattan services.
The Broadway express tracks are currently out of service due to the closure of the south side tracks on the Manhattan Bridge. Up until 1989, they were very much in use; in fact, at one time, there were three express services along Broadway, although they didn't all operate 24/7. One of them was the Sea Beach, or N, believe it or not. I've ridden many an N train on those tracks.
Given the current situation with the Manhattan Bridge, we may never see it fully open to subway traffic again, let alone resignalled.
Some problems, Grasmere only has one staircase, and the overpass is a small one lane in each direction street. Is there room for the buses to line up?
Your not getting any more speed over the bridge. Even with the south tracks open the timing on the grade timers will never be increased in the current state of mind of the TA.
Staten Islanders WANT a one seat ride into the city. Why pay extra and switch modes of transportation?
The plan for the Grasmere Transit Center includes a new station near the Staten Island Expressway.
-Hank
I don't know if you caught this, but the proposed city budget cuts off NYC local tax funded capital grants to the TA. Instead the city proposed that that money will be used for the Astoria to LaGuardia connection and, later, the #7.
I don't know what to think of this. True, the existing system has needs, and I hope this won't be used as an excuse for disinvestment. On the other hand, it seems that if the City contributes more to the TA, the state just contributes less (it cut off capital funding for the MTA years ago) and diverts the MTA's own revenues to the commuter railroads. The suburbs do not contribute anything to the LIRR and Metro North -- the state contributes for them, using money collected in large part in the city. Also, while loss of funds pushes the TA to improve efficiency and cut costs, additional revenues just disappear into the system.
Perhaps this could be part of a "new deal." The MTA must find a way to fund its operating and capital costs using fares, toll surpluses, and its own dedicated taxes. That would free up city money for acutal improvments. And perhaps Nassau and Suffolk would be willing to pay for the LIRR to GCT, rather than expecting the city to do it.
Just to clarify which is the make and which is the subject. Pleas read prior post.
[The suburbs do not contribute anything to the LIRR and Metro North -- the state contributes for them ...]
Well I don't know that I agree with that. I'm pritty sure Nassau & Suffolk put in something ... I do know that is a absolute fact at LI Bus, which is why they exibit some healthy independant thinking, i.e. they don't automatically agree to what the MTA or TA decides.
[ ... re #7 & N extentions ..] Rudy doing politics as usual, but good for him, i.e. if he can get the MTA/TA to do more then STUDY these two extension that would be a good thing.
BTW what's happening with the "5 new lines" ... another study :-(
Mr t__:^)
We as a society have become used to filth. I regularly see people littering on the trains, leaving their trash, spitting out their sunflower seeds, inter alia. This human garbage must be dealt with severely, they degrade the quality of all of our lives. Similarly, those who put out their cigarettes on the ground, do they not think that they are littering? Unbelievable scum these people are. Everytime I ride the SI Ferry I see these animals throw their trash into our harbor. I'd like to throw them overboard. The MTA must crack down, a $500 fine would hit the spot.
I think you have a point here. There is only so much money you can spend picking up after people, if people feel they have a right to litter.
That said, people get sick and there are accidental spills. In the parks, you find more littering when the garbage pails are full (doesn't seem to be a TA problem).
I don't know that a $500 fine will stop anything, since people just won't pay it. In some states when you are caught speeding they put you in jail until you pay or post bond. The loss of time would be a threat to the poor, who can get of paying if they have no money, and to the rich, for whom time is more scarce than money. Two hours delay might be an appropriate penalty for littering.
[I don't know that a $500 fine will stop anything, since people just won't pay it. In some states when you are caught speeding they put you in jail until you pay or post bond. The loss of time would be a threat to the poor, who can get of paying if they have no money, and to the rich, for whom time is more scarce than money. Two hours delay might be an appropriate penalty for littering.]
How about "banishment" as an alternative? Here's how it would work: If a person is caught committing some offense on the subway, he would be immediately served with a notice forbidding him from using the transit system for X period of time. Obviously, the length of X would vary according to the offense. Littering or smoking might be worth a 48-hour banishment, while pulling the emergency cord as a prank could get six months and serious vandalism a lifetime ban.
It's fairly safe to assume that no one will actually obey a banishment. Much the same is true with driver license suspensions - everyone keeps driving anyway. But if someone disregards the banishment and then gets caught in the subway or on a bus, hit him hard, really hard. 30 days' imprisonment without early release under any circumstances would be a nice start. Again, there's a parallel with driving, as operating under suspension is a fairly serious offense. And figure that if "banished" people keep using the subway, at least they'll be on their very best behavoir to minimize the chances of getting caught!
People and cops don't really care about the fine and all they want it $$$$$$ in there pocket. They don't want to pay or spend money on fine. P.S. I don't trust Cops
Then why is the Metro in DC so clean? Stations and car interiors alike are spotless! As I recall, eating and drinking in the system is forbidden, and they mean it -- fines and arrests do occur.
I think that station design has a great deal to do with how people behave. In Montreal and Toronto there is little unfinished surface, everything is tiled, painted and brightly lit. On the other extreme, many Boston stations look like dumps when they are clean. New York falls in the middle, many stations look good and the incentive is there to keep tham that way. However, some stations (especially express stations, and local stations with island platforms) tend to look dirty because the walls behind the tracks are harder to keep clean and reflect less light. If the station is dark and dingy to begin with, people are more likely to use it as a trash recepticle.
Yes, you're right re:WMATA Metrorail. Even the most rowdy passengers do not eat/drink or litter in the system.
The D.C. Metro established the policy on food and drink back when the system opened in 1976, so people they did not get accustomed to bringing (and dumping) those things in the subway. The New York system evolved in an era when all sorts of concessions, vending machines, etc were sold right on the subway platforms, justifying the right in some peoples' minds to leave their trash where they bought it.
Because there are still many news stands within the subway, any kind of food/drink ban in New York would doubtless face legal challenges from here to forever, since the operators would claim the MTA is violating their franchise agreement (D.C. Metro sells its newspapers on the system by way of coin racks at station entrances -- some of the suburban stations will have as many as 20 racks in a row lined up outside)
In addition to the no food or drink policy, I think it may help that the entire system closes nightly for about 5 hours. Since there is no one in the trains then, a complete and thorough cleaning is easy.
-Mike
No one will ever succeed in closing the Subway system at night. It would be political suicide.
(Closing the subway -- political suicide) After all, in whose neighborhood would you put the homeless shelters? The subway is perfect -- it isn't in anyone's neighborhood, at least not for long. That's 75 percent of what late night service is about these days. If it wasn't for all the rules, the could outfit a fleet of retire Redbirds just for this purpose, and move them around the city all night. As it is, the subways are an unofficial shelter system.
Personally, I favor replacing infrequent subway service with frequent bus service in the late lights. It would be cheaper and -- if the buses had a traffic signal over-ride -- faster.
I wasn't advocating closing the subway at night just noting what WMATA does. It would be unthinkable to do that here.
Mike
I hope it doesn't close as many people have no other means of transportation. WMATA Metrorail stops from about 12:30-5 AM and being a New Yorker it drives me nuts.
Wayne
We've discussed this numerous times before. To find lay up locations, to secure stations, to recirculate equipment to serve all stations promptly due to long routes are definite problems. Maybe you don't use the trains overnite, but I can assure you this is a 24 hour system. The only times it is dead is between 2 & 4 AM, except Friday & Saturday nites.
Yes, you are on the right track. Smoking should be banned within 50 feet of TA property, ie, the street near a subway entrance. Right now we have people leaning on the turnstiles and exhailing smoke onto the platoform and they somehow think that that's not a problem. Also, I recomend a $100 fine for throwing a cigarette butt on the street or out a car window anywhere in the state. Jail for multiple offenders. Smoking should be banned in public parks and within 50 feet of a school, library, courthouse or bus stop. Is the city not obligated to provide a clean safe and designated area to wait for a bus? I recomend random a police crackdown two days of every month.
As far as sunflower seeds go, I have seen police officers spitting sunflower seeds in a subway car on more than one occasion and I have also seen people (including one police officer) clipping their nails on the train!
That kind of behavior made me want to bring my portable electric razor onto the subway in protest. After all the TA has no sign telling passengers that they can't shave on the train in the morning.
Yes, its bad, but at least its not the LIRR. The policy of not cleaning the cars on the weekend, combined with a greater sense of entitlement, leads to a mess. I hated riding those things. I do my off peak travel by car now.
People have criticized tha TA for a long time about garbage on the subways and buses, but I've always felt that the passengers are largely responsible for the filth, rats etc. It's very common to see someone eating candy and/or drinking a beverage and they'll put the refuse in the trash - if they're near one. Most of the time it goes on the floor, especially on buses where there are no trash receptacles. Many people also teach this bad habit to their children also. Then what really amazes (and agner) me is that these same people will complain bitterly (and endlessly) about the conditions. Go figure. I know of a couple of individuals that are ready to shoot you if you litter in their homes, but they throw their trash in the floor of the transit system as if it's the designated place for garbage. I admit that I eaten a candy bar, chips/drink a soda on the transit system, but when I did, I always put the trash where it belongs. Sorry for the long post, but this has always been a sore spot for me.
Wayne
There is nothing wrong with drinkin a container of coffee on the train if you throw it away when you're done. As I said before, there needs to be a crackdown on violators. If people who flick their cigarette butts on the street or out their car window (Littering) are never challenged for their offence, then it sends a message that the city is willing to put up with litter in all its forms. That, it is, in effect, official city policy to always look the other way and not care when someone leaves trash on the train or in the park or wherever.
Once again I suggest that they have a special task forcer of a dozen or so officers who write tickets on two or three random days every month. The fine should be $100 to start whith second time offenders facing bannishment from parks or subways or wherever and possible jail time. If you throw a cigarette butt out the window of your car you should get points off your liscence. Two or three offences should lead to the suspension of your liscence or your car should be impounded untill you pay a stiff fine.
You're right something needs to be done. I've been using WMATA's Metrorail for 2 years and the most I've seen is the occasional newspaper and when you do see a newspaper that's been left behind it's always on a seat and not scattered throught the subway car/bus or platform.
Yes, there are too many two-legged rats running around in the Transit system as it is.
In many ways this city is a tradgedy of the commons, with each treating shared property like a free-for-all to be exploited. Remember when a bunch of Scandinavians donated wooden mini-soccer field to a housing project, and a bunch of fun-lovers burned it down for a thrill the first night it was there?
It seems to me that most of us agree that the major
blame falls upon the passengers who make the mess. Isn't
this a quality of life crime? Rudy, are you
listening? The Daily News in the second part of its
editorial(scroll down) today calls for shared blame and
fines:Editorials
The E is the dirtiest of course. It is filled with bums, sorry, homeless people living in their filth.
The second problem is the passengers preference for eating, esp McDonalds and fried chicken.
I am not racist, just making an observation.
BTW, G&D = Gross and Disgusting.
My most striking incident in this catagory occured back in the mid-80s while riding the #5 toward Brooklyn. The cars were the recently restored R-26 types. As the car I was in was crowded, I wanted to move into the next car -- I opened the end door and was about to transverse the anti-climber/treshold plate when my (thankfully) sensitive nose detected a noxious odor. I looked down and saw a nasty mound of crap on the next car's anti-climber! Obviously, a homeless (or maybe non-homeless) commuter thought the IRT cars were public toilets! Needless to say I thanked my nose for saving me a new pair of sneakers!
Anyone else with similar stories?
Doug aka BMTman
I've encountered cars that smell like human crap a couple of times a year. However, you can usually see the poor person responsible for ther smell, someone who can not control himself...
B ut back in the '80's, I lived on the Concourse line and that was probablky the worst one. Homeless people would occuppy a whole car and break into the conductors cab to turn out the lights and/or adjust the heating/ac. This happened on a regular basis. My friends and I referred e cars as "sleeping cars."
Perhaps people would not use the trains as toilets if there were plentyful clean public toilets in NYC
> Perhaps people would not use the trains as toilets if there were
> plentyful clean public toilets in NYC
Maybe. But as a Londoner, have you ever smelled Leicester Square around 7am on Sunday morning? If you've been there you'll know what I mean :-)
-Dave
Dave -- not to mention as a current LIRR rider, I can say that many a time the morning rush hour aboard the M-1s (with unkept bathrooms) can be a REAL challenge to a person's respiratory system if you know what I mean!
Doug aka BMTman
My last post on the subject because it deals more with sociology than it does transit!
[Perhaps people would not use the trains as toilets if there were plentyful clean public toilets in NYC]
Do you really think so? Go into some of the restrooms that are open. People must be really proud of their 'creations'. They never flush so the rest of us can admire their works. Lets face it, some of us are anti-social slobs.
To not be disgusting or converted to residences, a New York Restroom must be staffed. To afford staffing, there must be a charge. Thanks to the New York State legislature, that is illegal.
P.S. in addition to having the 2nd worst credit rating (behind Louisiana), it has now been crowed the 2nd worst managed (behind Alabama) by Governing Magazine.
Oh yes, many times, on average once monthly in the late 60's and early 70's when i lived in Queens and rode the "E/F" and also on the "A". Men pausing between cars and urinating on the sides of the cars; and these were NOT Homeless types or bums, but folks in suits on their way home form work, just too damn lazy to get off and use the restrooms!
Also, on an R38 passing thru W 4th ST, a couple in the midst of intercourse,didn't phase them in the least that the train was in service and picking up passengers..who at least vacated to other cars in the consist..but the look on faces as the train pulled into the station was absolutely priceless!
Also on a "F" between QP & 71st AV..a flasher who repeatedly flashed a mother and daughter....a group of us told the conductor at Roosevelt to have the cops at 71st Ave, and just before the station, we jumped him and held him, witnessed and he got arrested and did some time....so folks this stuff isn't new!!! But is IS G & D!
Well, (we're going back to 1973 and 1974 now) ther was "Old Mary", the Queen of the Queens Boulevard line - an elderly woman in her 60s or 70s who could clear an R44 in no time flat.
Then there was the guy who became violently and DRAMATICALLY ill aboard car #4376 ("F" line betw. Parsons Blvd & 169th Street) - HE cleared the car within 30 seconds, myself included.
Wayne
Last Sunday night, I was checking the 'R' lay-ups along 4th Avenue north of 59th Street. On the train adjacent to 53rd St. we found that a homeless person got onto the train, kicked out the crew door glass, turned on the heat and then moved his bowels in the car. I notified the vandal squad of the NYPD (formerly transit police). The following night, the same miscreant vandalized another 3 R trains in the same area. In the process of vandalizing the 3rd, the vandal squad arrested him and charged him with criminal mischeif and trespassing. Of course, we found out that he has an almost unbelievable number of prior arrests for the same charge. [Of course some fine representative of the legal profession will try his best to get this guy off instead of seeing that he gets the help that he needs.]
Dear Sir/Madam:
I took the BMT R train through the Montague Street Tunnel from
Brooklyn many times, and noticed at the Court Street station, there
is a route indicator for the train operator to select the proper
route of the train. The operator pressed the N/R button as usual for
the R train, but the M button had a message saying: "NO 75-FOOT
SUBWAY CARS PERMITTED ON M LINE!" Why can't the 75-foot R-44s, R-46s
and R-68s operate on the BMT J, L, M and Z Lines? They are all the
same division, with the same clearances for any IND and BMT Line.
Could the R-110BS and future R-143s operate on every IND-BMT
Line? When the R-143s arrive, which cars will be retiring from
passenger service? Which cars will operate through the new 63rd
Street connection when it opens in August 2001? Will the IND-BMT
R-44s, R-46s and R-68s be transfered throught the IND-BMT network?
James Li
> Why can't the 75-foot R-44s, R-46s and R-68s operate on the BMT J,
> L, M and Z Lines?
The curves along the Broadway (Brooklyn) elavated neat the Williamsburg Bridge and the curves at Crescent St are too sharp and can cause these cars to sideswipe each other if thay happened to meet at those points. They were built to handle 67' cars - not 75' cars.
> Could the R-110BS and future R-143s operate on every IND-BMT Line?
Yes.
> When the R-143s arrive, which cars will be retiring from passenger
> service?
This is subject to debate but my thinking is that the R-42s will be the first to go.
> Which cars will operate through the new 63rd Street connection when > it opens in August 2001?
Don't know.
> Will the IND-BMT R-44s, R-46s and R-68s be transfered throught the
> IND-BMT network?
The R-44s and R-46s, probably not. I'm sure there will be some movement of R-68s but I'm not sure what it is.
--Mark
What operates through the 63rd St. connection will likely be determined by what is then running on the Q. It is unlikely that the R-46 fleet would be split up so it will probably continue to dominate the F, G and R.
Here is a possible scenerio, assuming that the R143s do not set off a scrap drive.
The new cars would likely displace R-42s from East New York. By consolidating the R-40 fleet at East New York, the entire R-42 fleet could be assigned to Coney Island for the Q. This would give the Q a consistent appearance, the Slants could take over the M and the J/Z would get a mix of new cars, Slants and R-40Ms
200 new cars displace 200 R-42 from East New York to Coney Island; about 160 of these would be needed for the extended Q.
Swapping the 170+ R-40s at Coney Island for the remaining R-42 cars at East New York would consolidate the R-40 fleet at East New York and the R-42 fleet at Coney Island This would provide 330 cars for the extended Q service and a few spare trains.
The R-32 cars freed from the 63rd St. Shuttle would go to boost availability elsewhere
Since the 143 order is going to be so much smaller than the R-142s, and with the future opening of the 63rd St. link, I don't think any `B' division cars are targeted for the scrap heap any time soon, they're just going to augment the current fleet.
You are correct. The R143 fleet is an "add to", not a substitute for. As for the flip-flop R40/R42, they're probably going to send my favorite Slants from the "L" (4398-4449) packing to CI to beef up the "Q"s, along with the R40Ms. They'll have to pick the 40M's out of their consists; they're all mixed up with the 42s.
Wayne
Has R-143 even been ordered yet?
I do believe they have, sometime back in early January.
The firm order was for 112 units, with an option for an additional 100.
Wayne
R143 112 new subway cars???? Why don't they make over 300 R143 subway cars to replace older subway cars?
Because the Second Generation B Division cars are in such good shape they don't warrant replacing! To wit, 590 out of 600 R32 cars are still rolling after 34 years; 196 out of 200 R38s still going at age 32; 292 out of 300 Slant R40s still going at age 30; 99 out of 100 R40Ms still rolling along at age 30 (the 100th one is in the shop getting a facelift) and 390 out of 400 R42s are still in operation at age 29. That's 97.9375% of the combined fleets, still going, and going, and going...
Increased ridership points out the need for additional cars.
Wayne
Nevermind the fact that many, if not most, of those R 32s are going strong and in good shape too. I'll repeat it again for anyone wjho missed it - I'll be surprised, and awfully dissapointed, if those cars don't make it to at least age 50...
I dare say that the R-32s are probably the best second generation subway cars around, and are in the same class as the BMT standards and Triplex units when it comes to reliability. Not to take anything away from the Redbirds, which are mighty good cars in their own right, but the stainless steel skin of the R-32s and the corrosion resistance it provides will be the single most important factor in terms of longevity.
Even though they still look great, I still think the R-32s looked better with their original blue doors. And if they could bring back the roller curtains on their bulkheads, or at least a LEGIBLE route sign, they'd be perfect.
Let us hope that when the R32s get their second (and deserved) GOH, say, sometime around 2005, they'll rectify the sign situation.
Wayne
I think that we have seen the last of the large scale GOH Programs similar to the one the TA went through during the late eighties and early nineties. During that time, the TA paid Morrison Knudsen alone more than $900,000,000.00, not to mention Buffalo Transit, Sumitomi, and Nab. Since then, SMS, while not a perfect system, has managed to maintain the equipment so that a GOH program would not be necessary. I think the next big overhaul program for the R-32s will be to replace the floors, which are in need of attention. This should insure that the R-32s will survive through the first decade of the 21st century.
If the R-32's go through another GOH, I would also like to see them re-retrofitted with the traditional front sign assemble (perhaps with an electronic twist), and the Transit Authority could do me a personal favor by returning the straps and blue doors.
BTW - I am sending this from Innoventions West Side at Epcot Center down south -- no IRT lines on this west side, though (unfortunately!!!)
Perhaps if the straps are deemed unacceptable, they should install the same kind of handholds that the R38 use. Much more comfortable, reachable by short people and in the corners, the handicapped. And the same lighting too. Yes, blue doors as well, but dark blue on the outside, leave them silver inside.
Wayne
Oh, I loved that light blue shade on the inside of those R-32 doors! The R-38s also had that shade on their door interiors. If the R-10s had the fastest doors in New York, the R-32s get my vote for the smoothest operating doors right from the start. The R-27/30s come in at a close second, and the BMT standards deserve honorable mention. Once in a while, a standard would have a hyperactive door which would whip open and slam shut, literally bouncing off the cemter post.
Actually, the end signs & markers are still on the R32's. They are just covered up.
Yeah, if they were to use the LED-lit dots like the new bus signs, it would be way more visible (and it can be multicolored. They should have blue by then to for the full color spectrum), and why not make them bigger, like the original signs, and why not have a digital destination next to it. Then, they would look pretty much like they originally did
Those signs can be funny because sometimes you can be riding in trains that does not exist. For example, I saw an E train coming in as a W train. The signs on R32 are really bad. But mistakes also happens on most train, on the windows of an R-46 E train I took saids B to 21-Queensbridge and sometimes, R-44 and 46 have the signs in opposite direction like an F sayings its going to 179 St queens when its goin to Coney Island. Also, on R-68s, the window signs sometimes appear as A, M, etc. But the R-32 is the worst, at least all other trains have their front sign straight but not the R-32, they come in in all different sorts of shapes.
That's a good one! It's like the time I saw a "Q" train (it was #3918) signed up as an "O". The R32 can display any letter (A-Z) and any number (0-9). The signs on their bulkheads are totally, utterly, completely useless and they look awful too, like someone with a big fist popped 'em. They really should pull the bulkhead plates, get out their tin-snips or Sawz-All(TM)'s and put in some realistic signs, ones that people with 20-50 vision like me can read.
AND THEY SHOULD CLEAN THE GLASS! How tough is THAT to do?
Wayne
Great Question: Actually, you need a car inspector to remove the sign, then a cleaner to clean the glass and then a car inspector to put the sign back. Same problem for the side signs on the R-68 and R-68A.
Oh dear, I wasn't trying to be snide! I had no idea that it was such a complicated operation! When Peggy and I were on our trip January 28, we discovered a shaded lamp with a cluster of bulbs in one of the stations (I think it was 177th-Parkchester), and one lonely bulb was lit. I remarked to Peggy why don't they change them; I could easily have done it (so I thought), she explained that two people were needed to do it - an inspector to verify that the bulbs were out, and a maintenance person to change them. And to boot, the bulbs are special reverse-threaded ones, so going over to Duane Reade for a package of lite bulbs would have been useless! Go Figure! 8-o
Wayne
It doesn't need to be that complicated. I can assign a Car Inspector to do the entire job. By contract, I can work an hourly employee below his title 40% of the time. Would I do it? I would try not to. Too many things to factor into the mix. The morale of the employee being required to do work of a lower title and the Cleaner who would complain that I'm violating their pick by not assigning them work that they are legitimately entitled to.
By comparison, the maintenance shops are far more flexible than the overhaul shop when it comes to making a repair. For example, if I want to replace an air compressor on a car, I assign 2 car inspectors and in 2-3 hours, it's done. Not in the overhaul shop. You need a CME to disconnect the electrical, an ABM to disconnect the pipes and who knows what to drop the compressor out.
Sounds like an MBTA bus shop job. Start with a sheet metal man to take off the cover. Then an electrician to disconnect the wiring. Next comes a pipefitter to disconnect any pipes. Then the machinist to unscrew the bolts. Next a rigger to get the part out. And after they are all done putting the new part in, along comes the cleaner to polish up the finish. In the carhouse one or two repairmen do it all. Unfortunately, when the Boston El first got buses, they made it a separate division from the rail equipment, and everyone got into the unionizing act...
Even better - I saw one arrive at the Manhattan-bound platform at Queensboro Plaza signed up as the 'X'!!! It wasn't until Whitehall Street that the motorman realized he probably should change it to 'N'.
Back in the good old days, when side destination signs were actually illuminated, I would sometimes see various cars in a train with either the wrong sign, or on occasion, BOTH signs backlit!
Nothing tops a "Coney Island" sign on an R-32 illuminated in green. "57th St." is a sentimental favorite, sine the very first subway train I ever rode on had that destination backlit - in green.
Just in time for their big four-oh celebration!
Here is the proposed 2001 car requirement assignment, from the May, 1997, NY Div ERA Bulletin:
J/Z 80 R-40m, 88 R-42
L 136 R-143 (216 purchased)
M 104 R-42, 48 R-143
N 90 R-32, 50 slant R-40, 140 R-42 (170 assigned)
Q (ext. to 179th) 104 R-68, 168 R-68A
This was before the B & Q switched cars, and doesn't reflect that change, so the B still has the 200 R-40's. So go figure what they'll send out on the Q now. The simplest thing would be that the N keeps 50 R-68's instead of the R-40's, and the Q would be all slant R-40. But can anyone see them sending the R-40's to Queens? I've heard that the 60 ft configuration works better out there (why the E has 32's, and one reason the new cars were made 60 ft again), but would they use the 40's?
This also that the Manhattan Bridge will still be in the present configuration (stage of work) then.
Why on earth would they purchase new cars and send a third of them to a line that is about five local stops long, the M? Its a complete waste of space...
Can you spell OPTO during shuttle operation?
That sounds like future OPTO to me.
I said it before, and I'll say it again: If your system started from Day 1 as OPTO, no problem. (And the data is there to back up the position.) If your system started from Day 1 with 2 man operation, it's bad. (And the data is there to back up the position.)
If it's Boston, New York, or Philadelphia. It's BAD!!!
If it's Baltimore, Atlanta, Cleveland, San Francisco/Oakland - it works!!!
The OPTO / no OPTO arguement will never be solved.
If it's money - it will happen. If it becomes a political question, it might not.
Here in Boston, the Blue Line switched to OPTO a few years ago. Keep in mind, of course, that the Blue Line runs four-car train. There was the usual outcry that crime would rise, etc. And of course the union objected, citing loss of jobs. The compromise was that the T would take the conductors (oops, "Guards") and move some to other lines and promote others to "Inspectors" who would ride the trains and monitor the platforms. Nice thought. What happens in reality? The "Inspectors" often ride in the front cab with the operator, and (guess what?) open/close the doors on the left-hand side so that the operator doesn't have to get out of his seat. This is most often true during off-peak hours.
By the way, the total trip time of the Blue Line has increased about two minutes since OPTO has been introduced, due to the fact that operator has to go to the other side of the cab to open/close the doors at many stops.
Bottom line - here in Boston, OPTO has been successfully implemented on one subway line, but it's unclear if there has been any cost saving.
My aunt says that trip times in Chicago have also increased since OPTO was implemented for the same reason. The Red and Blue lines still have conductors in the subway portions.
I would (being a Slant R40 fan myself would welcome the return of these cars to Queens, where they got their start. If they are kept clean and in good operating order, there should be no problems with them.
BTW try using font color FFD720 for your Broadway Gold and try bolding the characters so it shows up better [b] [/b] (angle brackets). The orange is FF6820.
Wayne
Now with the Williamsburg Br. closing in a few months, they should be able to run 75 ft cars from Bay Pkwy to Chambers or Essex. (Digital readings for this are even on the R-44/46 side signs!, and of course, most of the R-68's have the signs for it too). Yet, a track worker at the Marcy/Hewes switch reconstruction in December told me that the new tunnel lighting on Nassau St is a barrier. Would anyone else know about this?
Why does everyone want to see 75 footers on the Eastern Division?:)
Much like Redbirds on the '7', I think the Eastern Division has a sort of look to it with the 40 Slant/M's and 42's that would be a bit ruined by the long cars.
Just my opinion......
And don't worry. The R-143's are probably going to look just like the 42's on the inside. I like seeing things different, and I miss the transverse seating. I would love to see them park a B division car on the middle tracks of the 1(anywhere between Dyckman and 242), the 3 (Junius-- requires deisel locomotive), the 4 (between Woodlawn and Burnside), or the 7 (QP and 61st St). (But as I've said elsewhwhere, there may be other obstructions besides just the platforms.
BTW When the bridge is closed, Nassau will not be connected to the Eastern Div., but only to the Southern and the IND, yet it still would be an opportunity to see the cars go where they normally don't (I did see a 4 car 46 parked in the middle of Chambers for the filming of a movie a couple of years ago. Coming from Fulton, I see it with the yellow signs on the track rising out of the stub, and for a minute, being tired and sleepy, I think I'm on the N approaching Canal!
The only thing decided as to current ENYD cars' reassignment once the WillyB closes is all slants being transfered to CIYD lines. Which R40 mod & R42 cars going to the Bay Pkwy end and which cars will be staying "in the East" has not been determined yet. But don't look for 75' cars on the M from Bay Pkwy. It will be a rush hour only service and the TA will not put newer cars on a part time line (B & Q swap). 75' cars are not allowed past Broad St. Why? Because it says so on the punch at Court St! And just before you enter Fulton St, there is a small sign on the wall restating that fact! I don't know why, maybe the 75 footers would side swipe the new Nassau St. line lighting around curves. Certain things we just don't question, because some departments do things without informing other departments as to why.
It is probably that nasty reverse-curve on the northbound tracks just south of Chambers Street. Some of the loudest screeches in the entire system come from here. A 75-footer would be a very tight fit in there. I don't know if they modified that tunnel like they did between Cortlandt and City Hall on the N/R.
The reverse curve north of Chambers almost as bad but it looks like it's out in open tunnel, where the old branchoff to the Manhattan Bridge once was.
Wayne
It can't be the curves themselves, because someone was telling me at the ERA meeting that when the D's used to go through there, they did
use R-44's (I remember the D going through there, but it wasn't R-44 the times I was on it). Someone also said there was some kind of G.O. years ago where N trains were laid up there, and then N trains have taken the wrong turn.
So if anything, it might be the lighting, as Bill suggested, and I had heard. That wasn't always there.
(I did see an R-46 in Chambers for the filming of a movie, a couple of years ago, but I don't know which way it was brought in.)
I would guess the signs banning 75ft cars are based on the assumption that the M is going all the way over to the Eastern Div. It could still be because of the lights, though,
No one touched on the R-44 fleet possibly because they're here to stay and more than likely, will stay exclusively on the A line
Phooey! Either that or the R-44s have become a forgotten afterthought.
Dear Sir/ Madam:
When the 63rd Street Tunnel connection opens, what service will
be extended to the IND E, F, G and R Lines? Will the IND G train be
cut back to Court Square at all times for good? Will they have IND
G trains to Forest Hills during non-rush hours, like weekdays 10am
to 3pm, evenings, nights and weekends? Will there be new V, W and Y
trains running as well? How will service operate during then?
James Li
It looks like the only change will be an extension of the Q to Queens. The G would serve its present route Court to Smith-9, and the E or F might become the second local since the Q will be dumped onto the express tracks east of Queens Plaza. The R is local by default! This works whether the Q runs IND or BMT in Manhattan.
I would guess if the Q runs express to 179th the F will become the local while the E remains express from Jamaica Center to Queens Plaza. Expect some howls from Sixth Ave. riders when that happens, but since the Broadway and Sixth Ave. lines are within no more than a block of each other from 57th to 23rd St., that seems like the most likely option.
How many R-32's are on the 63rd St. Shuttle and where did they come from?
My only wonder is what kind of service across the tunnel and down both 6th Avenue and Broadway there will be. Will Broadway get the 'Q' and will we see this 'V' train? I don't know if it'll even be necessary with the increased train service(E/F/G/R/V/Q?) unless it's an express and they cut the 'G' off(why not at Queens Plaza instead of Court Square so that 'G' riders can still at least transfer to a Queens Blvd train?) which is what they'll probably do.
And would the 'Q' become a full-time train or at least extended from just rush hours and middays?
I think the simple solution is the most likely: Cut off the G (unfortunately), keep the E and F and R as they are, and extend the Q to the Queens local via the 63rd St tunnel. Having the Q running in one direction and the V in another would require more cars, and the TA is trying to get by with as little as possible.
The one thing they might do is go with 18 E trains and 12 Fs, instead of 18 F trains. Since you only have 12 F trains in the other direction, that's a lot of trains going one way rather than going back to pick up more passengers in Queens.
Last October, there was one 8-car train of R-32s on the 63rd St. shuttle. No idea where they were borrowed from. When it reached 34th St., several passengers asked if it continued on to 23rd St., and the motorman told them to take either train across the platform (the S terminates on the southbound express track). I remarked that even if our train were to continue south, it would skip 23rd St. anyway, since it was on the express track, and the motorman replied "They don't know that," or something to that effect.
Was it cut off at 34th St. and not further down the B-way express tracks because there was only one 8-car train? Couldn't they have gotten more or were there none available?
I'm sure a lot of western Queens-LIC/Manhattan commuters would have appreciated that.
The 63rd St. shuttle was initially supposed to run between 57th St. and 21st-Queensbridge. It does just that during nights and weekends. During weekdays, it operates to 34th St.; apparently it was realized that there would be sufficient ridership to justify such an extension, plus there would be a means for Q passengers to transfer to the shuttle at 34th St.
There is only one train because service is limited to the use of a single track between 57th St and 21st-Queensbridge. Both trackbeds had to be torn up and redone; only one could be done at a time without shutting the line down completely. Last October, the shuttle train operated on the Queens-bound track, which was redone first.
When I was riding the Broadway line this past Friday evening, I saw two trains of R-32s on the Queensbridge Shuttle. One was in the Broadway/57th Street station northbound on the A4 track; the other heading southbound from 42nd Street to 34th Street on the A3 track.
They do run 2 8-car trains of R32, lettered for 63st Shuttle (Yellow S) I was surprised they actually have that route sign. North terminal is 21st/Queensbridge, and the south terminal has been alternately 'South Terminal' and '34st/_____', which, if I saw the peeling sticker right, is actually a 34st/6Av sign.
-Hank
You're both absolutely right. I do remember seeing two trains. Usually, they pass each other at 57th St.; the train from Queensbridge switches over to the southbound express track just to the north of the station. It then stays on that track to 34th St. After leaving 34th St., it briefly wrong-rails on the southbound express track, then switches over to the northbound express track before reaching Times Square.
Many riders on the Manhattan n/r aren't old enough or have not been in NYC long enough to know that there were ever expresses. During the brief time that the N ran express and over the bridge in the late 80's or early 90's, before the current construction, there would always be more than a few riders watching in shock as the train passed their station by. Especially those whow would get on at 49th, a local stop before the train switched to express.
My observation of the riding pattern on that line is that there is almost a complete turnover of passengers between midtown and the downtown stops. It just takes too long to go from uptown to brooklyn.
I guess trains to Queens via 63rd could change that, as well as the Manhattan bridge being reopened (probably not in my lifetime).
I remember the contingency plan implemented in 1995 when the Manhattan Bridge was closed to all subway traffic during middays and weekends, and doing a double take when I saw the signs above the express tracks at stations along Broadway. The Q provided all service on the Brighton line, making all stops all the way to Coney Island, then entered Manhattan via the Montague St. tunnel. It ran express along Broadway, switching over just before Prince St., and continued out to Queensbridge. I rode a few Q trains just for the fun of it; too bad the R-68s were assigned to that line at the time. It would have been even more enjoyable with the R-32s or slant R-40s, not just in terms of speed, but the railfan view as well.
I believe many were borrowed from the N stock, with a few coming over from the E.
I show the following units: 3524-3525 (N), 3626-3627 (N), 3570-3571, 3648-3649 (N), 3652-3 (E), 3674-3675, 3816-3817, 3842-3843 (E), 3846-3847, 3858-3859 (N), 3874-3875, 3902-3903, 3908-3909 (N), 3920-3921.
Those without letters in parentheses were spotted on the S originally.
One thing I am beginning to notice: the three camps of R32s (C, E and N) don't swap too often. In other words, once an E, pretty much always an E. The only swapping I see is between the A and C (Pitkin), and I saw Es and Rs (Jamaica) exchanging cars last year. Ditto with the N and the rare Q (Coney Island).
Wayne
Check out my Williamsburg Bridge post and get your erases ready.
One thing that I've noticed is that the R-32s have always had a close association with the N. Granted, they're not synonimous with the N the way the R-10s are with the A, but I get the impression that there have always been a least a few R-32s assigned to the N line since they first appeared in 1964-65. Most of my early rides on the N were on trains of R-32s; other cars included R-27/30s, R-42s, R-46s, and R-68s, even slant R-40s once or twice. In fact, the last time I took an N to Coney Island, I did so when a train of slant R-40s pulled into Pacific St. The express run down 4th Ave. was OK, and, of course, the view was second to none.
Check Steve's post of R32 reassignments when the WillyB closes. I doubt if you will see R32's on the N when that happens.
In my response I stated that I believe the passengers are largely responsible for the filth problem in the transit system. I realize my statement may imply that all passengers litter in the subway. That's not what I meant to say or imply. I should've explained that I know there are many of us who do not use the system as their personal trash can. Please accept my apology.
Wayne
Have you ever noticed the wood strip bolted to the edge of all stations platform edges secured by wood blocks? They are often painted yellow. Why is wood used?
The car threshold plates at door openings are at least 6 inches above the platform edge. This does not meet ADA requirement for wheel chairs and other convenances. What is the reason or is a carry over from the old days?
Wood is used because it's cheap. Cars sometimes rock as they enter the station, and this will damage the platform edge. Using wood (or more recently, plastic) keeps the platforms from absorbing as much of the impact (however slight) and also allows the gap between the car and platform to be narrowed or widened if necessary.
As far as the gap itself, if the station isn't accessible, it doesn't need to be ADA compliant.
-Hank
When I was redesigning and testing the signaling for the Archer Avenue Extension for Union Switch & Signal, I noticed some interesting attributes on the drawings and in the tunnels at Van Wyck Blvd. I walked the tunnels many times in 1986 and 1987 and found the following:
1) The entire grade separated tunnels for tracks D1A and D2A were built as part of the Queens lines contract under Public Works Administration (PWA) project No. 2741 in 1935 and 1936. The original tunnel lighting was installed and operative. They were called tracks D5 and D6 in the 1935 and were destined to go the Rockaways.
2) The tunnel was built originally from Van Wyck Blvd. to the middle of the present interlocking at Jamaica-Van Wyck.
3) When the Archer Avenue Extension was added the original tunnel was left original except for the addition of ties and track.
At Parsons-Archer, the tail track goes under the LIRR to allow for a several train storage. We provided rear home signals and red automatic signals with AK feature on these tail tracks. A Central Instrument Room (753CIR) is located deep in the tunnel on track D2A bench wall.
Correction to this posting. The line from Van Wyck Blvd. station would be called the Van Wyck Blvd. line and would terminate at Rockaway Blvd. and not go to the Rockaways.
I kind of figured the provision for the Van Wyck Blvd./Archer Ave. line was built at the same time as the rest of the Queens line; given the numerous bellmouths elsewhere, it makes perfect sense. I'll bet it certainly made things a whole lot easier when construction on the Archer Ave. line began.
There is a footnote in Peter Dougherty's track book which states that the E tracks extend approximately 3000 feet either after they turn right beyond Parsons/Archer, or for a total distance of 3000 feet beyond Parsons/Archer, including the right-hand turn. Don't you think they could have put in another station along the way?
I have a City Planning Commission map from 1969 that shows two planned extensions beyond Parsons-Archer. I believe what is now the E train would have run along the LIRR right-of-way through Locust Manor to about Springfield Blvd. (The new RPA "Metrolink" plan proposes this too, except going to Laurelton.) I guess the route would have been under Guy Brewer Blvd. for a few blocks before coming to the surface.
The other line would have extended the J/Z to about 190th Street-Hollis Avenue. It is possible that some of this would have been above ground, but I never heard any details about it.
The tail tracks at Parsons-Archer end at stationing 755+00 I believe the station platform end is at around 733+00, so there is approximatly 2200 feet of tail track. I will pull my track plans to find out.
There were some plans to extend the line however, they were conceptual only. I remember a station at Bailey Avenue and a yard towards Springsfield Blvd. I have the plans and will advise next week on Subtalk.
The tunnel turns south at 163 St and goes as far as South Road.I worked on the underpining of the LIRR viaduct
What is you favorite interlocking and interlocking plant?
A station called Van Wyck Blvd. with no street by such name!!! What do you think?
What about E 177 St and Parckchestor I walk around that area to find E 177 St and I could't find E 177 St. Since the station was built before the Cross Bronx EXPWAY. Could it be that the Cross Bronx EXPWY be where E 177 St. used to be?
Unfortunately yes,East 177 Street was torn up and replaced by that open ditch we call the Cross Bronx Expressway.Remnants of East 177 still exists in a few area though. The correct name for the station now probably should be "Hugh Grant Circle","White Plains Road," or "Parkchester."
Regards,Redbird
Okay where's 23rd Street and Ely Ave??
You come up on 44 Drive?
(I don't know Queens from a hole in the ground)
I know that Queens has allot of holes in the ground. It's called the subway.
Van Wyck Blvd was of course replaced by the Expressway. If you have any interest in local history, you know that most of the streets in Queens were renamed in the '30's.
Ely Ave=44 Dr
Lowery, Rawson, Bliss, etc on the Flushing Line
OK, which one was Van Alst? 21st Street or Jackson Avenue?
Of course, there's the bunch on the "A" line - 80th-Hudson, 88th-Boyd, 104th-Oxford, 111th-Greenwood.
Wayne
21 St, according to my 1928 map.
Ah, but there used to be a Van Wyck Blvd. at that location. The Van Wyck Expressway cuts through there now. Same deal with Willets Pt.-Shea Stadium. There was a Willets Pt. Blvd. which approached Roosevelt Ave. at an angle. The Shea Stadium parking lot obliterated that street, although it may still exist beyond the parking lot. Another example: older maps are marked 75th-Puritan Ave. on the Queens line. I haven't been able to locate a Puritan Ave. on any of my New York City maps.
[Another example: older maps are marked 75th-Puritan Ave. on the Queens line. I haven't been able to locate a Puritan Ave. on any of my New York City maps.]
Most Queens streets had their names replaced with numbers back in the 1930s. While the old street names have otherwise long since fallen into disuse, they live on in the names of some subway stations.
If you look on Hagstrom's 5-borough street atlas, Map 26/Page 60, you will find 75th Road between Metropolitan Avenue and Burns Street with Puritan Avenue in parenthesis. Within the boundaries of Forest Hills Gardens, all street signs (the private FHG variety, not the familiar white-on-green) are marked as Puritan Avenue. When the IND subway extended to Forest Hills, many of the numbered streets still carried the pre-1920s names as well. 75th Avenue (Road?) between Austin Street and Queens Boulevard was the new designation for the easterly projection Puritan Avenue.
Now how do you explain Slattery Plaza?
I've never seen Slattery Plaza on any of my maps nor on any of the street signs in the area. Perhaps the intersection of QB and Woodhaven Blvd was known as Slattery Plaza back in 1935 or 1936.
Wayne
There was a discussion of Slattery Plaza's name on nyc.transit some time back. It's probably been a couple of years, and I can't remember the answer. But you should be able to find the discussion via DejaNews.
Yesterday(2/11/1999) I was returning to Newark Penn aboard PATH and spotted these being unloaded froma flatbed trailer into a warehouse near PATH's Harrison Station (Just to the New York side of the New York bound PATH track). These cars are white and at a quick glance resemeble SEPTA's new light Rail cars used on their subway-surface line. I do not know if these cars are for the Newark City Subway or for the Hudson/Bergen Light Rail. My guess is they are for the Newark CIty Subway. PCC Fans--hurry, their day is fading fast!
Don't think the end is too near for the PCC's. The new shop facility/line extension is just under construction. Nothing has been done to the overhead, so any LRV's arriving now will have to be fitted with trolley poles. Supposidly the LRV's will be articulated cars, SEPTA's Kawasakis are single units.
Guess we have to stay tuned.
The Hudson-Bergen line and Newark city subway will have identical LRVs, but the Hudson-Bergen line will get them first, because they will have a portion of line ready for testing this spring. The PCCs in Newark have about another year to go.
The LRVs will be articulated, with a partial low-floor design.
I am trying to do a special project dealing with the history(past and present) of the nyc subway system. I am coming up to ny for a week in march and I would really like to spend some time shadowing and important subway "official" through a daily day. Hopefully I could go with this person to key locations of the subway system. I was wondering if anyone knows who I should contact. Please email me back!
Just wanted others opinions on what they think of the TA Museum's gift shop.
Besides the well-stocked book racks, and the enamel-plated station signage for sale, the shop is El Lameo!
First of all, those T-shirts are late in coming. I remember trendy "head" shops in the Village and Lower East Side that had those subway number and route sign Tees and sweat shirts years before the TA Museum "discovered" them.
And those silly toddler items like plastic wind-up steam engines and other knic-knac type junk have little relationship to the theme of the museum. There appears to be a lack of imagination on the part of the curator/operators.
One of the things that would certainly make money -- and appeal to the railfan -- which I'm sure most of us in these boards are -- would be a series of subway car T-shirts. Different shirts could be made to feature R-40 slants, R 1-9s, R-10s, R-46s, etc., etc., etc. The possibilities are there for many fanish (and sellable) items.
Lastly, I cannot fathom why the TA Museum has not gotten any of Image Replicas to offer the public. The reasonable prices -- about $130 for a three car train of R-21 types -- would be a big seller to tourists and local folk as well. I can understand not wanting to carry the brass stuff since the pricing was steep for most of us, but there should be SOME kind of subway models available. And no, models of MetroNorth coachs DO NOT count as subway cars!
Later, Doug
I agree with the idea of T shirts with different subway car images. I'd grab one with an R-1/9 or R-10 in a heartbeat. They have them at the Illinois Railway Museum depicting the different cars in their collection. I bought one with an image of CTA's Green Hornet 4391.
This all comes down to a matter of taste. 99% of all gift shops in North America are filled with junk. I happen to like your Ideas but others might think they are for "train geeks" or something. Anyway, if I ran the tranist gift shop I would stock the shelves with things like Fake Vomit or paperweights made from chewing gum scraped from actual subway platforms or a section of the third rail that you can plug in so that when your friends touch it they get a shock. My taste could be considerd diferent, but still, my ideas are more related to the TA than the Junk in their own museum.
I suggest you stock the shelfs of gift shops and the Transit Museum with jars of genuine steel dust for the NY Subway. They probably sell authentic rust from the Titanic some where!!! How about selling New York City bottle water?
I agree that it is a good idea for gift shops to carry interesting gifts like steel dust and Titanic rust. Anythink to make a buck.
I was with the Material Division when they did the first inventory in 80 years and found lots of stuff they didn't need. They held an auction at the Transit Museum. I showed up to see if anyone would come, and barely got in. Perhaps you remeber it -- it would have had to have been 1987 or 1988. There was a frenzy at the table where motorman's badges were for sale, and the old signs went in a flash. But there really isn't much on a subway which makes sense out of context.
There is a flea market at PS 321 in Park Slope every Saturday, and one of the vendors sells pictures of old Brooklyn. We bought a picture of trolleys passing near Bartel Prichard Square in Windsor Terrace and framed it on the wall. The Transit Museum should try to buy up as many negatives showing subways/els/buses/trolleys and related infrastructure as they can get, then sell mid-sized photos. They should also try to compile a book of route maps of all the rail transit systems in the country, then and now, and sell that -- a worthy project for a historical musuem.
Any idea on how often the Matrial Division does inventory nowadays? Or rather, will their be an auction like that in the near future?
New York City Transit's surplus material is currently listed online.
Ahem. Wrong link. Try this one...
New York City Transit's surplus material is currently listed online.
The inventory company that does our once a year inventory does the TA. Some of their crew even had to go to TA School to get clearance to walk the tracks to some out of the way locations.
I've heard stories of thousand dollar motors counted in one shop and suddenly appearing in another??
The museum used to have some cool surplus before the MTA went somewhat corporate: Streamlining the M's and so on... In the late 80's and early 90's I remember the old bus fare boxes they would sell and other miscellania. Perhaps the best items were the casual hats for the lines that conductors wore at that poeriod. I had a 4 line painrter's hat that I wore to death.... Now they sell rail road stuff which while nice, doesn't compensate for their lack of TA items.
I wonder how open the museum is to suggestions and/or how available is some of the surplus...
You want to know why?
It seems that Museum Curator Thom Harrington has this thing about getting big $$$ at the annual Gala so he puts away most of the old items that we buffs would buy in a second. What we might be willing to pay maybe $50 for, he can get some rich corporate big shot to pay $500 for at the gala.
I have been after the people at the Museum for ages trying to get them to part with some of the good stuff. So far the most they have offered are some numbers signs from scrapped cars (there are a few at the Museum gift shop - I was there last week).
I have been told that when the Grand Central store finally opens they will not male the mistake they made in the first store (High prices,, low selection, etc). We will see what happens.
Having worked at the 207th Street overhaul shop some years ago I maintained relationships with the good people I worked with. After reading about the cracked truck problem here at SubTalk, I called over there to ask what their ideas were.
The current thinking is that why these cars are suffering now as opposed to why not say R12's or 30's 15 years ago is this. The casting techniques used today should be better, and we know that the science of metallurgy has definitely progressed. The trucks that (mostly) seem to be affected were provided by Japanese manufacturers, whom we all know to have excellent quality control programs, so why then the cracks?
It's not the trucks, that are different, but the operating enviornment that's changed. See 20 years ago most of the subway was laid wih traditional (type I) track. The good old wooden cross tie in ballast. Now the maintenence free type poured concrete track is prevalent. The old stuff "gave" to the motion of the train passing over. This made for eventual distortions of the track and consequently a poor ride for the passengers, but it was easier on the trucks. Now the motion of the suspension is all absorbed by the truck frame.
The "F" men at 207th St. had been noticing excesive wear in the trucks for some time, and now the cracks, too. So that's the theory in vogue at the Truck shop up there. It's based on educated guesses though, and NOT hard data. It'll be interesting to see the actual engineering analysis.
Erik
I totally agree with that. If I recall, during the R46 cracked truck litigation some years ago, Rockwell International said the same thing: the roadbed is too hard. And today, there is even more concrete. I used to operate the old RR from Astoria to 95 St. It was virtually all ballast underground, now that has changed to concrete.
Yesterday, when I was reading the "War on Grime" article in the NY Daily News I noticed that the lines not mentioned were:
The Times Square, Franklin and 63rd St. Shuttles
The 'H' Rockaway shuttle
The #9
The 'Z'
Which led me to wonder "What constitutes a subway line?". I can see the '9' and 'Z' as they only appear at rush hours connected to the '1' and 'J', respectively.
But why not the shuttles? And the 'C' and 'Q' are connected to other lines at all times when they run but were included.
What gives?
Well the Franklin Avenue Shuttle doesn't run anymore, so that would've been impossible.
And the Q uses one station no other train uses until it stops running then the B takes over no?
That one station a line??
57th and 6th Ave
I was looking out my window from a project in the Bronx and noticed a #5 train comprised of OPTO cars making its way up to Dyre Av. It's nothing out of the ordinary being that 20 R62As from Pelham have to cover the shuttle service during the midnight hours. What WAS peculiar is that I noticed that the set of R62As on this train were consecutively numbered with new trucks (1651-60). They appear to have drawbars. Does this mean that the 6 line is getting 5 car units of R62As? Also, 1909 is out of service, so what do you do to make up for this car? Steve, are you out there?
How do 5 car unit arrangements affect the 3, 7, and shuttle? Is it safe to assume that a group of R62As will remain single to cover the lines I just mentioned?
Personally, I really don't see the value of linking the cars into 4 or 5 car sets (R62/68/62A/68As). This arrangement is not flexible considering how accident prone these cars might be. You lose one car, you wind up losing 3 or four others as a result. This tends not make any sense if there are no spares available to be put into a train. Basically, you have to put two accident trains together to get one good train. I still say that single units are more flexible than anything else regardless of how many repititious components are out there.
What's the easy solution? Leaving couplers on the ends for easy reconfiguration of the units? Spares may still not be available to put on a train. So the 3 or 4 good units wind up on a deadline as a result.
-Constantine
Lets start with the last point first:
Linking is a trade-off. When you link, you cut maintenance costs and icrease reliability. Linking removes electric portions, master door controls, master controllers and brake valves. Once removed, these components cannot fail nor do they have to be maintained. On the other side, linking reduces flexibility. If you hold one car for repairs, you now hold 3 or 4 OK mates. Again, on the positive side, that lack of flexibility forces maintenance shops to work smarter and more efficiently.
As for the 3 and the 7 lines, I assume that a certain number of R-62 single car units will have to be maintained for the 9 and 11 car consists used on those lines. It's no secret that the #7 line has single car R-33s just for this purpose so maintaining single car R-62As would by no means break new ground.
As far as the Pelham fleet, I do not believe that they are linking their cars (yet). More likely, the cars chosen for the Dyre Ave. line were sent as a block for the conveinence of keeping track of them. Being in consecutive order is because only certain cars are set up with transverse cabs (red marker on the roof). One correction about the cars having "Draw Bars". The draw bar is the device which connects the coupling device to the car body. The coupling device may be the usual H2C coupler or a link bar (what you were referring to) but all cars have draw bars. Again, I doubt that the Pelham fleet has begun linking yet.
Ostensibly any car can be converted to transverse cab - i.e. #1431-1432-1433-1434-...1438, with all five of the others (1435-6-7-9-1440), well, we know what happened to THEM.
I saw some consecutives on the #6 - 1691-2-3-4-5 was one and also
saw #1700-1699-8-7-then 1743. I don't know what happened to #1696. I have never seen it.
Wayne
Hey Wayne Do you remember the Union Square wreck in 1991??
#1435 (end damage- 5th car)
#1436 (end damage- 4th car)
#1437 (split in half crosswise- 1st car and still standing at concourse yard)
#1439 (end,side and roof sde damage-2nd car)
#1440 (endand massive side impact damage-3rd car)
#1696 (out of service status unknown) Also go to Illustrated Subway cars Roster and Cars Wrecked/Scrapped While in Revenue Service
Yes I remember that one well - I have copies of all four NYC dailies (Newsday was a daily paper back in 1991) showing all the grisly damage and mangled stainless steel. All the banner shots show #1437 split in two (her "A" end survived) but none seem to show the horrific damage done to the third car #1440. One Newsday photog, with some police in tow, managed to get an interior shot of this car showing the huge gash in the car's right side, with one row of seats folded back upright and the side with the damage almost touching them. Some folks have insisted that the lead car was #1440 but it really was #1437. I am awaiting the NTSB report to arrive and I will examine it, hopefully setting the record straight in the process.
Wayne
I remember the wreck in 1991 and I used to take #6 train to work at houston st but i forced to take the R or N to work and going home to switch at 59st to take the #6 train home. It took about a week or more to cleanup the wrecks.
I know years ago there was a collision on the #1 line between an R62A and a work train. I think it happened at 103rd St. could that be missing 62A? It was on the southbound track
Hey Gonzo go check Illustrated Subway Cars Roster and Cars Wrecked/Scrapped while in Revenue Service.
R62A #1969
Yes that was at 103 st and the motorman on that No. 1 train was a friend of mind. He said he had a green signal entering 103 st. The invergation turn out there was a signal problem but they tryed to hang the motorman.
Some questions for you:
1) How did they try to hang the train operator after the incident?
2) Did he/she lose any pay?
3) Is he/she still on the job?
4) What would you do diferently?
1. They tryed to say he keyed into 103 St.
2. He loss pay pending investigation but got payed after he was cleared of any wrong.
3. He is got his job back but retired
4. Ever since I have been going slower around curves and even more so after the G line Collision
In response to your replies to my questions, I offer this;
1) Human error is always suspected until mechanical failure is proven or ruled out.
2) Civil Service law prevents a person from being suspended without pay for more than 35 days.
3) Once the initial supposition was proven wrong, he suffered no loss in pay, even though he did not work.
I agree that for any of us, suspension is a drastic step, punitive in advance of the facts and punitive to the family as well as the employee. It seems like a knee-jerk reaction by the agency and something that the TWU and the SSSA MUST address in contract negotiations. Fortunately, the TA corrected the wrong. Unfortunately, such injustice has a chilling effect on the rest of the work-force. It's a drastic step that is mis-used far too often. Placing a person on modified duty would seem to serve the same purpose until all the facts are known. I can appreciate that after such a situation, this person would opt for retirement. I've seen it far too often. One of the problems is that the people making such decisions have not risen through the ranks.
That was R62A #2256 - she went pell mell into some poor old R21 work motor and messed his face up REAL GOOD. She got a broken bonnet and a bent anticlimber for her troubles. A few weeks at 207th St and she was as good as new.
Wayne
I shudder to think what would have happened if that R-62A had picked a fight with a BMT standard. The standard would have walked away, laughing.
Oh dear that's a frightening thought! The Standard would have squashed the R62A like a bug, perhaps leaving it a flat car!
(Shades of Union City, PA 1917). Did you read RedbirdR33's posts about the 1936 pile-up of R-1s and R-4s between 7th Ave-Park Slope and 4th Avenue? That sounded pretty grisly - it takes brute force to telescope an R-1 or R-4.
I saw a picture of an El Wreck on the #1 line which happened back in the 1950s. It happened on the centre track and involved Lo-Vs. The train that got hit didn't appear to be badly damaged - a smushed end -
but the train that did the hitting - the front half of the car was obliterated! All that was left was the superstructure back to the center door. It happened at W.230th Street and Broadway.
Wayne
It makes one wonder just how today's cars are designed and built comapred to those of yesteryear. Notice I didn't mention a Triplex - you know who'd win that confrontation. Apparently, the only instance of a fracas involving Triplexes happened in 1955 at Stillwell Ave, and who knows what they fought about. (an R-16, perhaps?)
Anyway, that pileup on the IND is mentioned in Building the Independent Subway; not much info except that additional R-9s were ordered to cover the casualty losses. It did say improperly set handbrakes were the cause of the crash. You know, I had the impression that 1575 may have been one of the cars involved in that pileup, but apparently this was not the case. What sort of mishap did 1575 get into which resulted in its metamorphosis?
Steve: I just read your previous post about the D-Types.I had never noticed the coincidence of the dates before.As to the wreck of 1575 I've checked several sources and can only say that the car was wrecked in 1946 and rebuilt in 1947.I'd like to hear the details of that wreck from anyone familiar with it. The only R-16 involved in a wreck was the 6494 which hit the block at Broad Street on 9/26/57.It was because of this wreck that R-11 8010 was returned to service. Apparently Broad St was a dangeous place in those days. I see that a B-Type 2330 was wrecked there on 2/25/53.
Best Wishes,Larry,Redbird
Hmmm. I was under the impression that 6494 had its face rearranged by a BMT standard - a knuckle sandwich, if you will, and subsequently had its good end grafted onto 8127 later on. Just what was it that made Broad St. so notorious in those days?
Steve: R-27 8217 did indeed have a run in with AB 2761 on 7/24/61 at Coney Island. It was sent to 207 Street for rebuilding using the undamaged end of 6494.I really don't know what was going on at Broad St but maybe some adjustment had to be made to the signals.
Regards,Larry,Redbird
We are forgetting #6304, which was disemboweled when she was literally pushed into a concrete curtain wall by R40M #4501, who was in turn being pushed (driven blind from the third car) by the cars behind her.
This May 20, 1970 wreck just outside Roosevelt Avenue killed two people and injured a few score more. Two thirds of this car's left side was shorn away by the impact.
Wayne
When link bars are used rather than couplers,how difficult does it become to remove a single car from consist for shop work? e.g. the 3rd car of a 5 car set?
Removing a car is more involved when a link bar replaces a coupler. First, there are two Litton-Veam connectors that must be disconnected (electrical). Second, the trainline air lines must be opened (pneumatic). Finally a trunion bolt is removed from the link bar (mechanical) and then the cars may be seperated. Linking them is done in reverse but is far more tedious. Putting the trunion bolt back is like threading an 80,000 pound needle with a 3" thick tread.
Steve- I have seen some four car units-I have seen while walking udner the 4 line several trains with this set up :5 csr series, single car, 4 car series (based on car numbers.) Are they linked or just luck of random arrangement?
To the best of my knowledge, all R-62s are linked. Mis-mated cars may be the result of replacements put into the consist due to long-term maintenance. Jamaica has 2 such 4-car units where one or 2 cars in each unit were out due to long term maintenance. The 2 okay pairs were mated and put in service and when the 2 long term O/S pairs were completed, they were put together and now run as a 4-car unit (The TAs version of Bob & Carol, Ted and Alice)
And I think I know who those are - 5614-15 w/6202-03 AND 5616-5 w/6204-5!
Oh, BTW, by the process of elimination, I THINK I figured out who #3418's wife is: it's #3863. ScrapMaster Constantine says that #3904 and #3559 are both fire-damaged and I have no reason to doubt him.
Wayne
Those cars were mismated even before that fire. As previously stated, when the cars were at M/K, some cars needed more work than others. So rather than holding a completed car waiting for its' mate, M/K got the OK to return cars as mixed marriages.
And they go along with the TA's version of Felix and Oscar, the Odd Couple R-32s.
I wonder if Bill Clinton has ever taken a ride on the New York Subway? Maybe they would stop the whole system until his private passes. Could you imagine the outraged passengers. Do they stop the subway when his parade car passes over subway lines or under elevated structures?
I may be mistaken, but during presidential visits I believe they halt service around the area for security reasons.
Yes, Just a couple of weeks ago the N was stopped, I believe in or around Astoria (go to nyc.transportation newsgroup for the original post) So that the presidents motorcade could pass under the EL.
I think we may confidently assume that neither the current
President nor any recent President has ridden the New York
subway while in office. Though the picture of a few
hundred Secret Service types having conniption fits is
most entertaining.
However ("I'm not making this up, you know!" -- Dame Anna
Russell, on whom be peace), on the morning of October 21,
1957, Queen Elizabeth II did ride the Staten Island Rapid
Transit -- not, to be sure, the actual electrified transit
operation; but the royal train from Washington to New
York, mostly via the Royal Blue Route, used SIRT trackage
between Staten Island Junction on the Lehigh Valley and
Stapleton on the SIRT. From Stapleton she was motorcaded
back to the St. George terminal (through which the royal
train had previously passed), from which point she was
carried to South Ferry Slip No. 3 on the U.S. Army ferry
_Lt. Samuel S. Coursen._
(The Army, in case you're curious, had found itself in the
ferry business due to the need to transport military
personnel to and from Ft. Jay, on Governor's Island.)
Why this way rather than a straight shot to Penn Station?
It seems that the Queen, in all probability not a railfan
but one with a certain sense of How Things Are Done, had
specifically asked to be brought into New York so as to
"approach the city the way it should be approached -- by
water," from which she would see "the fabulous skyline ...
something I have often seen before in pictures, a sight I
have always wished to see."
(Hmm...Great-Great-Grandmum, Victoria, would definitely
have used the first person plural for that last clause
even if one had been so imprudent as to have awakened her
at 4:00 a.m. at Camp Kilmer; and she in all probability
would have been the last European royal to have done so.
Our gains of the last century have not been without their
losses.)
Source: _New York Times_, October 22, 1957. (In which HM
had a certain amount of competition from Sputnik I.)
[I wonder if Bill Clinton has ever taken a ride on the New York Subway?]
I'll bet he did while a law student at Yale. He most likely traveled to the city on occasion during that period, and as a student probably couldn't afford to ride taxis.
I bet ya ol' Bill would've taken the subway when in NYC if he had only known how many well-endowed interns take mass transit. ;)
I SALUTE TO THAT!!!!
And if he did ride the subway, chances are Mr. Bill wouldn't remember doing so.
That depends on your definition of "subway"
This depends on your definition of the President of the United States of America in accordance with the Constitution.
Which makes me wonder about Mr. Bill. Enough said.
For security reasons, it would be a great risk for the President to ride the subway. When the President is in a motorcade, say, on the Grand Central Pkwy. to LGA, train traffic on the N & 7 is disrupted. I was working on the J on the day Pope John Paul II celebrated Mass at Aqueduct. After Mass he was in a motorcade on the FDR Drive. My train was held at Essex St. and all car/truck traffic was prevented from crossing the WillyB till he pased by.
Speaking of the pope, what about the time he celebrated Mass at Shea Stadium in 1979? What sort of disruption was there on the 7, if any? I remember reading about the pope making a reference to New York's skyscrapers and pronouncing it as "skyscrappers". I don't mean to drag religion into the fray, but I personally admire him very much. He even has Lithuanian blood, from his mother's side. Can't go wrong there.
Why is concrete used as flooring material on the old subway cars like the R1-9's. Allot of weight to carry around and it neats painting periodically.
Concrete is not used for subway car floors
RAIL TOPICS
Staten Island Railway
The expansion of afternoon Peak express service by 3
additional trips
Departing St George,,at 450 PM ,,616 PM,,631 PM
Connects with Whitehall Street Ferry at 420 PM ,
545 PM ,6 PM
Effective Apil 1999
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This is Official Material
I was wondering if any of you have ever seen anyone defy the third rail by touching it and not getting electrocuted.
I bring this up not because I think it would be neat to do, but I've seen it done.
I was waiting for a North-Bound Red Line train at the Belmont Street Station on the CTA Red, Brown, & Purple lines when I glanced at the tracks and saw a pigeon or bird sitting on the third rail.
I just hoped that the bird wouldn't reach down and touch the other rails, I like animals and wouldn't like to see that happen.
I believe to be electrocuted you have to make contact or complete the circuit. Anotherswords, If you only touch the third rail and no other metal object like the other tracks, you will be ok.
I have never tried it and never will, I have stepped on the edge of platforms before, but don't intend of ever doing it.
Anyway, my point is I'm glad the bird was ok and want to know if you have any similar stories. I DON'T want to hear about people getting electrocuted.
BJ
Yes, I have seen someone touch the third rail about 35 years ago on the LIRR at Douglaston station. They did not get shocked. I would not touch it however, if you touch it without touching the running rails or ground you should not get shocked. DON'T TRY IT. On these newer transit system the negative return is ungrounded so touching a carbody is the just as harmful as touching the third rail. Think about that.
> On these newer transit system the negative return is ungrounded so > touching a carbody is the just as harmful as touching the third
> rail. Think about that.
Huh? Only if there is a major failure of insulation within the car, causing part of the "floating" power circuit to come into contact with the car body. Just what systems are you talking about anyway?
All modern transit system like WMATA, MARTA, etc. On MARTA the trucks have a ground cable to the car body. The car body is connected directly to the running rails through a ground brush on the axle which is the negative return. The negative is floating above ground to prevent corrosion of utility lines by causing negative currents from flowing through ground back to the substation. If you desire to dispute this, try touching the running rail or car body and a true earth ground and you will be shocked. Have you ever wondered why tie plate fasteners for running rails on direct fixation track are made of neoprene? Must people think it is for ride quality. The main reason to electrically isolate the running rails from ground.
I think you will find that insulated fishplates are installed in order to isolate track sections in signal blocks.
I'm talking about insulated fish plate or IJ's. I'm talking about rail fasteners which are used instead of tie plates. There primary purpose is to keep the rail above ground while allowing the track circuits to work.
Please forgive me. In my last statement I thought you were refering to the bolted plates that joined the rails.
I think you will find that the noeprene strips under rails fitted with clips is to provide resilliance. The metal clip holding the rail is itself is grouned to the concrete effectivly bridging the neoprene.
Simone, that is not true what you are saying. The Pandrol clip or ones made by other manufacturers would have a nylon spacer under them where they make contact to the rail on concrete ties. On direct fixation track a large neoprene fastener is used for electrical isolation. This is very important in rapid transit and commuter rail systems that use the running rails for negative return. In Britain on the Underground it does matter much because the 4th rail is used as a negative return.
I thought the reason for insulated Pandrols when using concrete
ties is because concrete has a much higher leakage conductance
than wood, especially with re-bar :) The ties would quickly shunt
the track circuit.
In theory, you can touch the 3rd rail and as long as you are not grounded, not be hurt. In practice, however, I wouldn't try it. There are too many variables. 3rd rail insulators can have creepage, the ground can be wet and so can your shoes. I try to show Mr. 3rd Rail all the respect due him.
Isn't the third rail shielded on the entire system? I know in the old days they were uncovered on the els because of the design of the pickup shoes on the old cars. By shielded I mean isn't there a wood cover over the rail? If there is how would anyone ever be able to step or stand on the rail?
Yes, the third rail is "shielded", no, it's not a very good cover. Metro-North has UNDERRUNNING third rails, which in theroy are safer still. People still do get hit by them. Boston still runs an uncovered rail by the way, as do a lot of the systems in England. Go figure...
All the third/fourth rail systems in England are unsielded. I think that there was only shielded system that ever ran on a regular basis in England, from Manchester to Bury. This was because it was felt that the 1200 volts DC used for that particular system was a bit on the high side.
Sorry, forgot the Docklands system, collector shoes make contact with the bottom of the rail. Not sure whether the top is shielded though.
Sorry, did not make your last message. Docklands is shielded on the top and collected from below.
When the MOW uncovers the third rail and there is service they place signs up (NYC that is) that say (I think) "3rd Rail Alive"
Funny way to describe it if you ask me.
In both Baltimore and DC the third rail coverboards bear signs reading
DANGER; 750 Volts. All the poles at Light Rail stations have signs that warn of high voltage overhead.
As to wildlife, we've seen and heard pigeons ground themselves between the 12.5 KV trolley and the station structure (Pennsyvania Station, Baltimore). The result (always) is a loud "BANG!) followed by a wee bit of smoke. No charred feathers, though. However being close to the scene will scare the s*** out of you. No lie!!
An ATK friend of mine once noted "There was a little girl pigeon sitting on the trolley, and a little boy pigeon sitting on the beam. They touched beaks, and that was the HOTTEST piece he ever got."
I did witness an AEM-7 ground a pigeon who was sitting on the contact wire. When the pantograph touched the bird's feet, the resulting "bang" blew the pan off the roof of the motor. Nobody on the platform got hit, thankfully.
Wow! I never knew that trains could lose their pans that way...
When the main line from London to Hastings was electrified a few years ago (unshielded 3rd rail) there were a problems with badgers attempting to cross the line and getting killed. I recall a magazine article saying that engineers/conservationists had gone back to the line, identified the badger runs and cut gaps in the rail accordingly. This was in pre-privatisation days.
Max, I believe the Docklands is shielded.
I remember hearing one many years ago about a graffitti artist getting a rude awakening while relieving himself in the tunnel between Sutphin and Van Wyck Blvd (he survived). Here's one thing that always made me nervous - at Broadway-Nassau, isn't the third rail on the same side as the platform, at least on the Brooklyn-bound tracks? God forbid if someone should accidentally fall from the platform - there's nothing to indicate the third rail is there.
Wayne
Even more creepy - in at least one station in Boston, it's not only under the platform - it's *uncovered* too. Also, the LIRR used to run low platforms and third rail for years, and sometimes did put the rail on the platforn side. Look at early pictures of the old Garden City stop, among others.
What worries me is I see kids (and adults, who should know better too), crossing LIRR tracks all the time, often casually stepping over the rail, putting their feet between the two, etc. Why doesn't the LIRR have any sort of PR campaign directed towards this? It's always a dangerous activity, and more often than not, the people involved have no clue how dangerous it is.
On the SIR, until last year, there was third rail on the platform side @ Grasmere and Bay Terrace. When the Grasmere crossover was removed, the third rail was moved to the outside of the line, away from the platform. A few weeks later, the relocated the Bay Terrace rail. Except for these 2 stations, and Tompkinsville, and crossover areas, all the third rail is between the 2 tracks.
-Hank
You thought that was dangerous, Here in Chicago the CTA has no 3rd rail covers on the entire system!
The rail is always opposite side of the platform, but still, that is dangerous!
Especially for the Blue Line Douglas/Cermak branch in Cicero where it runs at ground level, Ravenswood Brown line at groud level and Puple line at ground level!
All of these have island platform stations at ground level!
You hear about people always walking the tracks every summer and getting electrocuted! This really makes me mad. The only warning the CTA has is big signs between the tracks at crossings opposite the stations that warn you. For the almost 100% Spanish population of Cicero, this would be bad if they are only is English!
Also, if a little kid strays just a little bit from His/Her parent walking on the side-walk accross the tracks, they are history.
The only area the CTA has protection against this is the wealthy suburb of Wilmette where the Purple line runs at ground level. Because the town could pay for it there are barriers on the tracks at all times except when trains pass.
BJ
That crossing on the Brown line sounds incredibly dangerous. I am surprised that the CTA hasn't had multi-million dollar lawsuits on its hands over this. Protecting the crossing would surely cost less than what a jury would award in a wrongful death suit. At the very least, put covers over the third rail in the vicinity of grade crossings!
Then again, people aren't supposed to just walk over train tracks, and you should at least be somewhat aware that the third rail is electrified. Besides, covering the rail at croissings does nothing for the CTA - the second you make something idiot proof, along comes a better idiot...
Witness the electrocution of some girl on Metro-North's Hudson line the other year - The third rail on that line is VASTLY more covered than CTA's. The sad thing is that the father was fishing with her on the edge of the tracks (in itself a dangerous idea), and had let her cross *unatended*. Who's fault is her death? Metro-North's of course...
Finally, are they even able to put covers over the third rail? certain types of pickups don't allow for this to be done.
The Metro-North third rail as you know is an overunning one,i.e. it is suspended from brackets and the shoes touch the bottom of it. This makes it somewhat higher than the subway third rail and more difficult to cross over. It requires a very high step for a grown man and is made more difficult if the right of way slopes away from an outside track. I work for MN and can only reemphasize the extreme danger of a third rail or any type. Even veteran railroad workers use extreme caution and cross the rail only when necessary. The decision to allow a young child to cross a busy four track main simply defies explanation.
Larry,Redbird
I think it's called lack of plain old common sense.
RESPECT is the key word here. Any kind of exposed electricty is dangerous, be it third rail, downed power lines or the outlet over your sink. The object is to teach your children to respect electricity and use appropriate caution. The examples we set as adults are very important, and children will copy our actions!
BTW, fishing along train tracks is TRESPASSING, as well as reckless endangerment of a child. That man doesn't deserve a plugged farthing from Metro-North
Gerry
Apparently constant exposure to network television programs cause a total reduction in common sense. I grew up with TV, as did most of us, BUT...we found lots of things to divert our minds away from TV drivel.
Therefore, we instintivly know things we've been taught: electricity and machines are dangerous if not properly used/respected. However, a sizeable portion of the population doesn't. We see them on the roads, doing stupid stuff on transit (discussed ad infinitum previously) and other stuff that flies in the face of good 'ol common sense.
My own observation about the CTA based on two trips to the Windy City - uncovered third rail because CTA cars have a gravity type shoe that drops from the shoe beam directly along the top of the third rail - not a protruding shoe that is perpendicular to the shoe beam such as the LIRR and NYC Transit use. It would be physically impossible to install a protection board atop the CTA third rail.
What I meant to say was does the Central Line run right-handed at White City? Thanks again
Larry,Redbird
I think that the oldest subway yards is 240st yard and 137st yard on #1 train
The yard at 148th St. and the Harlem River (Lenox Ave. line) is mentioned in the 1904 IRT book as the primary site for train storage and repair. 240th St. isn't mentioned, so I'm sure it came later.
One of the oldest BMT rail yards (originally BRT) is the 36th Street yard that was the terminal for the old Culver Shuttle and a station along the South Brooklyn Railway (the Railway still passes through the yard enroute to the larger Coney Island yards via the 'B' West End line).
Wayne: I just saw the 1970's version of "King Kong" and you are absolutely correct. He did tear down the Astoria Line and wrecked havoc with an RR train on that line. Of course you know what the train's consist was; yes the good old R-16's. It seems everybody beats up on those poor cars. Best Wishes,Larry,Redbird
Did you see the near-perfect mockup of the interior, complete with slanted door-motor pockets (the fans were too small and the cross bar was missing from the storm door window)? Alas, poor #6316, I knew her well...
Wayne
I was impressed by the acuracy of the signage.I cloud clearly read "Astoria" and "RR Broadway Local." That was back in the days when the "RR" was colored dark green.
Speaking of mockups, did you know that nearly all interior car scenes in The Incident were filmed inside a mockup of World's Fair Lo-V 5674? Let me tell you, it sure could have fooled me! Believe it or not, the cast and crew weren't even allowed on TA property for filming (needless to say, the TA wasn't too thrilled about the idea of making a movie as gripping as The Incident).
That was a mockup?!? Boy, the set designer had to have done his/her homework! Everything was right on the money - the little partitions by the sides of the (wicker, of course) seats, the porcelain straps, the jumbo fans...The only quibble I had was the scene, supposedly shot at Mount Eden Avenue, shows the sharp curve of 210th-Williamsbridge - right borough, wrong line. Say, I wonder if the WFLoVs ever ran on the #4 line...that WAS the line they were supposed to be on, no? They certainly ran on the #8 - that's where I rode mine on.
I had forgotten the name of the movie, thanks so much for reminding me. Now I'll have to comb the TV pages and watch for it.
Wayne
Wayne: When the World's Fair-Steinways came over to the mainland from Queens in 1948 they were asigned to the #6 Lexington Av Lcl.In October 1955 cars 5653-5665 went to the 42 Street Shuttle while the remainder went to the #2 7 Avenue Express.Starting Oct 4,1962 all WF cars were sent to the 3 Avenue El.Bill Zucker wrote a good article in the Nov and Dec 1981 NYD Bulletin about these assignments.
Best Wishes,Larry,Redbird
The movie producers went so far as to write to St. Louis Car Co. for specifications on that car. The mockup was built entirely of wood, and was mounted on a swivel stand. Strings of lights were mounted on the outside and illuminated sequentially to give the illusion of tunnel lights flashing by a train moving at 30 mph. The mezzanine and token booth were also studio mockups.
The film crew spent something like four nights filming scenes on the actual elevated structure and underground stations, pointing their camers through train windows. The cameras were hidden in paper bags or boxes; transit cops became suspicious when they heard a whirring sound, whereupon the film crew was asked to leave. It was a bit trickier with the platform scenes. The actors weren't ejected, since they each paid the fare, but they couldn't spend a whole lot of time on any given platform because permission had not been granted to film on TA property.
You can find out more about this by visiting www.imdb.com and looking up The Incident. It's very fascinating, and I must say, the mockup subway car was meticulously done. The only issue I would have would be the Woodlawn-Jerome Ave. destination plate; it's all by its lonesome. Didn't the WF Lo-Vs have three plates in a vertical row the way the other Lo-Vs and Hi-Vs did?
And I Did! Boy that's a realistic-looking Steinway! I'm comparing it to the one in the Car Roster- they nailed just about everything - the ogee roof, the lights, the straps, the big fat fans (biggest fan housings I ever saw). Maybe they will restore the one remaining WF Lo-V that waits at Coney Island. These were unique cars, for sure.
Wayne
Just FYI..the URL is imdb.com..otherwise you get a swedish bank....
You're right - sorry about that. Must have gotten my letters reversed.
MTH is coming out with a new set of O gauge subway cars. The new set will be a four-car unit (unfortunately R-40/42 like the last set) but with E signs (no liter on the floor) and no blue stripe. There will also be a 2 car dummy unit add on set and they are also making a 2 car dummy set with the blue stripe for those who bought the last ones.
Now, if they could only come out with S Gauge subway cars for those of us who are into American Flyer.
I wish that MTH would come out with their subway cars in HO since I (and other railfan/modelers) already have a couple MTS brass NYCTA cars and some of the old Q-Car Company resin models.
"Now, if they could only come out with S Gauge subway cars for those of us who are into American Flyer"
I suggest that both of you (modeling in S gauge) write to the manufacturer. (((((((((Grin))))))
Steve B, Did you know that there is a former IRT motorman, now living in Montana who scratch builds subway equipment in S gauge. The last time I corresponded with him he had some for sale. He was always fond of the IRT's older cars.
Karl, thanks for the info! You may email me privately if you wish, if you have this gentleman's address.
You mentioned you now live in PA. This is off the subject, but I'm curious about the long-gone seventh tunnel of the Pennsylvania Turnpike. This tunnel was somewhere west of the Allegheny bore, and as I recall, had a sharp right turn heading west right at the west portal. It was there in 1962, but by 1965, when we were heading home from New York, it was gone. Later, two additional tunnels were eliminated (Ray's Hill and Sideling Hill) when a new roadway section east of Breezewood opened in 1969-70.
Here are some sites that have info/pictures about the Pennsylvania Turnpike abandoned tunnels:
http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~mn2n/turnpike.html
http://www.en.com/users/johnb/patpke1.shtml
http://www.his.com/~halem/turnpike/
http://www.athenet.net/~mgk920/pennatpk.html
Quite interesting. Enjoy!
-Dave
Verry Interesting!! I remember the old tunnels as we used to visit my Aunt & Uncle who lived in Cleveland. All 7 were in service at that time, but the Turnpike ended at Irwin (near Pittsburgh). Later the 'pike was extended to the Ohio line, but until the Ohio Turnpike opened in the early 1960's, the Turnpike ended at the tollgate, became a 2-lane road which led to US 30 for the trip to Cleveland.
My father remembers those days. He says there were no speed limits even in the early 50s (people would be doing 80-90 mph), and every so often he'd spot a car on the side of the road with smoke pouring out of its engine compartment (not steam, but real smoke - we're talking burned-out engine). The tunnels proved to be bottlenecks; there would be cops waving motorists along.
The Ohio Turnpike opened in 1955, and the Indiana Toll Road followed a year later. My folks used to use US 20 through Ohio; it was in pretty sad shape by the time those superhighways opened.
Dave - thanks for the website info! I will look into it.
Maybe this topic was discussed before I came around, but Dave, have you ever considered a chat room on the page?
I am working on writing a bot to create a chat room in IRC. If anyone knows what irc is, you can join channel #SubChat. If you you dont know what irc is, check out MIRC.com. It is very popular, and very entertaining if you know how to use it.
I don't have the server capacity to host any sort of chat room. SubTalk is bad enough. But, there's room in this world for everything so if someone else wants to run it .... :-)
Fred....I am familiar with irc. Whic server is it on....dalnet, undernet, efnet, etc.?-Nick
I am still getting the scripts to write the bot, however, once I am done it will be on Efnet. I guess I am going to call the channel SubChat, however I am not sure whether to make it private or public. You are welcome to place a bot in the channel if you wish
About the only way to do this is to have a specific day & time for subtalkers to "invent" a chat room on their respective internet provider,
I heard the williamburg bridge are going to close the J,Z,and M service and torn down the track and repair new track. So how will the service going to be????
OK here's what I have heard so far:
"M" service terminates at Marcy Avenue
"J" service terminates at Myrtle Avenue
"Z" service terminates at Eastern Parkway
"M" southern division service rush hours only between Essex and Bay Parkway
"J" shuttle between either Chambers or Broad and Essex
"J"/"Z" skip-stop in both directions during rush hours (may be extended slightly from its current schedule)
"L" service being beefed up
"A" weekend express service with attendant "C" local service
Shuttle buses between Marcy and "L" station at Bedford/North 7th St.
May be shuttle buses over the bridge to Essex/Delancey
None of this is chiseled in stone yet and is ** subject to change **.
Wayne
You say the L is being beefed up. What about the rush hour A/C? Won't lots of people be changing? At least they could run the E, with 12 train instead of 6 Cs, to Euclid it could run local in Brooklyn and express in Manhattan.
These are the current car movement plans for additional service when the Williamsburg Bridge closes:
XX Slant 40s from East NY to Coney Island (numbers to be announced)
80 R-32 Phase II cars from Coney Island to Jamaica (Jamaica -2 Cars)
82 R-32 Phase I cars from Jamaica to Pitkin (Pitkin +82 cars)
E line service will be increased by 4 trains to accommodate Parsons Archer J/Z customers. F will be reduced by 4 trains.
More to follow:
While waiting at the downtown 14th Street station at about 8 p.m. last night, a two-car work train came by. I didn't get the car numbers but they were the typical IRT-dimension, yellow-colored cars. What I thought interesting is that they were signed with a diamond 7 in the bulkhead route boxes; thought "Not In Service" in the destination boxes. I wonder why the diamond 7 was chosen?
The crew is fooling around if ya ask me. The diamond 7 is for the express service 7 so since they weren't making all the stops and they had IRT cars... Sounds better then putting up a round 5 and maybe it was closer then the diamond 6?? (If there was a diamond 6 when those cars were in service, got to ask a sign expert).
That had nothing to do with the #7 Flushing Line. That train was probably #7 Revenue collector, signed up that way to be ID'ed by the towers.
In December, 1971, I was part of the "Subway Seven" who rode the entire system for a world's record. We sponsored this through Polytechnic Instutite of Brooklyn were I went to college. We rode the entire system in 24 hours. It was not a record because others had the record in the 1960's. There were some clowns in 1988 that traveled the system in more than 26 hours when the Archer Avenue Extension opened and they got the record from Guiness. Two friends of mine in the 1973 broke the record at 21 hours, 8-1/2 minutes and were in Guiness until 1988. My friend that was record holder with Guiness contacted Guiness and Guiness could not produce a log of the trip and went solely by news media coverage. The moral to the story, the Guiness Book of World's Record is a fraud.
I could go on and on with story along with NYCTA involvement and my letters and responses to Guiness. This is an excellent topic for Subtalk or my E-Mail.
When you say you rode the entire system what exactly do you mean? Every line from end to end? Or were you allowed to skip the express trains? Or what about lines which have multiple termini, did you have to ride to each terminus? Or did you have to ride to each station?
As far as I know, the rules are that you must ride on a train through each of the stations on the system, not necessarily stopping there. Express trains or skip stops are ok. Since the old J line was a long local with little or no express service it may have been used as a starting or ending point in the past. As the system exists today it connects with the E express, creating more possiblilties for routings. Pelham and 205th might make good starting/ending points today.
You are absolutely right and that is what we did in 1971.
Youv'e got my friends+I talking. We will go for the record soon. (I'm not saying we will break it, but it will be fun to try!)
Also--Is there any record for length of time? I'm sure some bums have been on for a good 2 or 3 days. I would like to try that as well this summer.
I'm not sure it would be a good idea to go for a longest-time-on-the-system record. In fact, I'm sure it wouldn't!
Besides the obvious homeless community's competition, you have to wonder what kind of condition you'd be in when you finished. After all, if you spend a long enough time doing anything, you'll never want to do that again as long as you live.
It's terrible to imagine it... my love of subways directly causing my hate of subways?
Of course, I'm all for the whoever-can-ride-the-whole-system-fastest contest. Just riding the whole system without leaving would be a great feat, let alone doing it in the fastest time possible.
We were planning this on the board some time ago, but just as we were finally getting plans together, someone else did it....
-Hank
Given the reduced train speeds one encounters today (an overreaction, IMHO), the speed record may stand for some time.
I think the reason I feel the way I do about the subway has to do with the fact that I experience it in small doses (once a year for a few days). After a few days, the novelty starts to wear off. My sister, who lived in the city for 12 years and was a daily subway rider, told me more than once that I would get tired of it if I had to deal with homeless people, panhandlers, delays, etc., on a daily basis, and she may be right. Of course, she's not exactly a transit buff, but she did like the slant R-40s when they first appeared...
When i was a teenage i took every lines in the city, but i missed some stations. The station i have never went it 205st "D" line in the bronx, Bay Ridge ave, 77st, 86st,and 95st "R" line in the brooklyn, 179st "F" line in the Queen, 104st, 111st, and Lefferts Blvd "A" line in the Queen. Boy is was fun to ride in the subway cars.
We rode the entire system and skipped stations when the platforms where less than 100 feet alignment from the track we were riding on. We rode each route and had to double back on some occassions. Compared to the system 1988, the system in 1971 was bigger with the following routes still in service:
Third Avenue El in the Bronx
Culver Shuttle
Jamaica Avenue El to 168th Street
In 1988, the Archer Avenue Extension was the only additional line to transverse. This does not compare to the number of stations and length of lines taken out of service since 1971.
So this new 63rd St. connection is the newest....ANYTHING(besides cars) in 11 years?
I'm wondering if anything new will come of the bridge rehabs.
When will they shut down, incidentally. I want to get one more ride in during this century(Unless they shut down in 2001:))
How far are the tunnel portals on the Manhattan side from the abutments of the Manhattan and Williamsburgh Birdges?
Can you see the portals form Grand Street and Essex Street, respectively?
If you stand at the north (Jamaica-bound) end of the platforms at Essex Street, you probably can see the portal on a sunny day. If you look geographically south behind the Jamaica-bound platform you can also see the abadoned trolley terminal, still intact after fifty years.
At Grand Street the portal is not visible due to the curve necessary to reach the Manhattan Bridge tracks.
I posted some messages a few months ago looking for info about Subway Riding Records. I too am a former holder of the "Speed" record through (not neccesarily stopping at each station) the entire system. This was in 1968 for a record of 22 hours and 39 minutes on June 16th. Did it with 2 friends, all Brooklyn Tech students. There were at that time various classes of competition with different rules, we did the Class C which is the out-and-out fastest. I've tried to follow the history of the record since then, but can't find any accurate source. By the way, my official certificate is signed by several people, one of which is Don Harold, who's name I've seen mentioned here. If you see this Don, you may not remember me, but what about Bob Stannish? (the brains behind the record run).
Any one with ACCURATE info on offical records, please post it!! Thanks.
Rich,
It is pleasure to find one of the record holders from 1968 like you, that I briefly recall referencing in 1971. Lets discuss on E-Mail.
Why not make the riding record part of the NYCSubway Site. If someone wants to post a subway riding record attempt the documentation should include the departure location and time, arrival location and time, and train route for each leg of the journey. Since the key to setting a record is routing and connections. Late hour reroutes should be valid, if documented. The documentation should allow any sub-talker to sit down with the schedules and verify that the times and routings are valid. Of course, luck in making connections is the biggest factor in such a trip.
When I broke the record in 1967, there was an Amateur New York Subway Riding Committee which verified any claims to a record. Documentation required was just about as you suggested. The 1st Car#, Time and location of each connection was required. It took over 6 months for the data to be verified! Does anyone know what happened to the A.N.Y.S.C ?
You are absolutely corrected. Mayer Wiesen and Charles Emerson for their October 8, 1973 record of 21 hours, 8 1/2 minutes was highly documented and audited by Steve Zabel of the NYCTA, conductor and respected railfan. When we did it in 1971 at a time 24 hours, 18 minutes we keep a log exactly like you descibed. I still have mine.
When a team of people did it in 1988 they didn't submit a log to the Guinness Book of World's Records and Guinness printed the false record based on news media coverage only. This is fact and I have the letters and documentation to prove it.
Footnote, myself and other individuals who did the rally in 1971 did not apply for a record with Guinness because we did not beat yours Rich.
Someone suggested posting this sort of thing to the web site-- I'll put an entry in the faq if someone wants to assemble it and mail it to me.
-Dave
David,
I would be willing to do that when I get the time. I also will send photographs of MARTA to you. When is Substation 21 going to be posted? Please E-Mail me.
Steel dust can placed in special container and provided with a magnet. It could moved around from the outside into cavities in the container to spell out the workds New York Subway. COOOL GAME
Id also like to see someone take a cup of steel dust and dust a light coating inside the ground relay and ceramic grid insulation for a nice fourth of July. Id also like to see a flat car "add" to R-68 2755.
I think I had a toy like this..it was a bald head on cardboard, covered with a plastic sheet. You'd use a magnetic pencil that would arrange small black particles into hair, a beard, a mustache, whatever...
-Hank
What do you guys think of the tunnel lighting on the Lexington Avenue subway with those mercury vapor or sodium vapor lamps point away from the direction of traffic?
I assume that they are shaded away from the direction of traffic so that the train operators don't get spots in their eyes - those lamps are rather bright. It might make reading signals a bit difficult. You can see similar lights on the Concourse IND line. I rather like those big flourescent bulbs you see in the Canarsie Line tunnels and a few other places as well - some of them are shaded on the traffic side as well. Some lines ("G" crosstown, 60th Street tunnel) have flourescent bar fixtures. The best illuminated tunnels I have seen are in the LA subway (have not been there personally - have seen via the media). DC Metro's not too bad either.
Wayne
I think they put some in at Atlantic Ave on the D/Q. First time I thought a train was coming from DeKalb!!
They're GREAT for taking tunnel videos :)
--Mark
And we all know how important that is, don't we :-)
Until next time,
Anon_e_mouse
It's real important if you have to work on the signal cases, train stops, signals and switch machines in the subway. REAL IMPORTANT!!!
Well, very important. Tunnel visibility is very important to the train operator.
--Mark
OK. Heres a question maybe someone might have the answer for. Riding on an N or R downtown in Manhattan, you arive at Whitehall St. Just past the station, you can see two things. One, on the right hand side, you can see a boring as if a new line was to be started. HOwever there are no tracks and it is not long enough for a whole train. Also on the left hand side, you can see a space between the two tubes and it appears to be some sort of plant in there. HOwever, the train never goes slow enough for me to get a good enbough glimpse.
Any ideas on either of these two phenomena would be appreciated...
Part of the question I can answer. The pockets in the wall were for a proposed Construction Rt #32"Battery -East River-Atlantic Av Route which was of course never built.I'm not sure about the plant but when the station was built it could hold a seven car train of Standards.It was lengthened to hold an eight car train (of Standards) in the late 1920's. The northbound platform was extended south and the southbound platform was extended north. These were very narrow extensions and were used for unloading only. There were gates that prevented access to the extensions from the main platform. When the platforms were extended to hold a 10-60 foot R-Types these extensions were either closed off or incorporated into the new extensions.
Best Wishes,Redbird
No NO those tunnels are the walled off section of the rail link to Staten Island!!! It's TURE!!!
Just kidding ;-)
Lou: I do believe that while the orginal plans for those bellmouths was for a Battery-Atlantic Av Line a later proposal would have connected them to Staten Island.
Regards,Redbird
I am looking for information about the defunct Rochester subway. Any maps or photos appreciated.
On the Rochester subway, the Rochester Chapter of the NRHS put out "Canal Boats, Interurbans, and Trolleys: The Story of the Rochester Subway," copyrighted 1985, a softbound 128-page book in a wide 8 1/2 x 11 size with lots of pictures and fold-out maps on the inside back cover. It's by Amberger, Barrett and Marling; ISBN # 0-9605296-1-6.
I also have a videotape called "The End of the Line: Rochester's Subway," with a 1994 copyright by Animatus Studio in Rochester. It runs about 45 minutes.
You might try Kevin Farrell in Boston; I notice from his last ad that he now has a web site at . There are other dealers who might have them; I would also try Ron's Books or Arnold Joseph.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Another source for these materials might be the gift shop of the New York State Transportation Museum in Rochester. Although I didn't get my copy there, they did have both the book and the video on my last visit.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Addendum to my previous post on the Rochester subway. I put the graphemic brackets around Kevin Farrell's URL and that apparently got deleted. It's www.trainbooks.com
Sorry
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
> I put the graphemic brackets around
> Kevin Farrell's URL and that apparently got deleted
Not deleted.. (It's still in the text of your message) It's just that your browser treats the > and < as html markup commands. stuff inside them is assumed to be markup not printable text.
what is the punishment for being caught with your rollerbaldes on whie on the train. I heard it was a 60 dollar fine. Is this law enforced much?Many of my friends, howver, wear their skate wile on the train. They say thyeve never had any trouble, and as long as your not being a nuisance they wont bother you ( seems like the correct policy to me) and even if you get botherd unless your over 18they usually wont do anything to you.
the only time you caould cause trouble with skates on is if its crowded and you have to stand, things can get dicey when the train makes abrupt starts and stops. I can also see why they wouldnt want some idiot on skates to fall on the tracks.
I don't know the precise penalty ($60 is probably in the ballpark), but wearing rollerblades in the subway seems like an amazingly stupid idea. Why take the risk?
It's just a bit more stupid than the pea-brains who ride their bicycles on the platform. The thing is that the NYCT already has a rule about bikes in the system but since the NYPD assimilated the Transit Police, it's become a non-law.
While rollerblading on the train or platform is a bad idea, perhaps an indoor rollerdome might be a good use of all those empty IND plaforms. During winter nights and weekneds, pay with a Metrocard and you get to roll around a designated, three block long course. 7th Avenue in Park Slope would be particularly good for this purpose. This city is terrible short of recreation space. Anything to increase revenues and traffic in the station is a good thing.
7th Ave in Park Slope is hardly an empty platform. Try those first few stations in Queens on the 7 train
I'm not sure I'd want to "kiss" one of those steel I-beams holding up the mezzanine while rollerblading in it :)
--Mark
(Rollerblading in the mezzanine -- smack into an I-beam). They could pad the I-beams. The way I look at it, its better than getting hit by a truck or (if rollerblading in the park) running over my kids.
Maybe they get the ticket on "Unsafe Riding" which I know they can write you a ticket for that if you ride between cars.
When I was 19, I was coming home sick (with the flu) and had to "be sick". I went between cars when the train wasn't moving and did my thing. Got a ticket for it, I think it was $40 or $50 at the time (1986), don't remember. Just went with my doctors note and was told to be "sick" in the car next time. Hey at least I didn't pull the the emergancy brake cord for the "sick pax" in the 34st-west4th 6th ave tunnel.
If Amtrak's trains arrive in New York at Penn Station, what route do they take from the north, let's say, from Montreal? Is there an underground link from Grand Central?
The trains follow the Metro-North Hudson Line south to Spuyten Duyvil.They then cross the Harlem Ship Canal and run down Manhattan's West Side on what was known for many years as "The West Side Railroad" of the New York Central, actually this was the original mainline of the Hudson River Railroad.Just north of the 30 Street
Frieght Yards a new connection was built into Penn Station.
Redbird
I was recently looking at a road map of NYC with above-ground rail tracks, and I couldn't find any links that would allow the trains to travel from the Manhattan West Side New York Central rail line to, say, cities like Providence or Boston.
Do trains in that direction still go over the Hell's Gate bridge via Long Island? I know they did in the past, but I haven't heard much about them recently and I haven't been in town.
Now a more in-depth question: I recently read about the proposed Penn Station - Grand Central rail link. If the above paragraph is accurate, will Amtrak routes reaching New England be rerouted via GCT? And if so, what will become of Hell's Gate?
I may have misinterpreted your original posting.The trains that come down the Hudson Valley follow the route I described.However trains on the Northeast Corridor coming from New England do indeed use the Hell Gate Bridge then run through Queens and cross the East River at 34 Street to reach Penn Station. The tracks then continue west under the Hudson River to New Jersey and from there south to Philly and Washington.
Regards,Redbird
Trains going upstate mostly use Hell Gate.
The connection to GCT is a branch off from the LIRR in Queens, not a connection in Manhattan between Penn and GCT. Here is a report from www.railpace.com/hotnews/
"TUNNEL ENGINEERING STUDY: STV Incorporated, a wholly owned subsidiary of STV Group, Incorporated, in joint venture with Parsons Brinckerhoff (PB), has been selected by the New York City Metropolitan Transportation Authority (MTA) Board of Directors to provide tunnel engineering services for the East Side Access project for approximately $184 million. The project entails extending Long Island Rail Road (LIRR) service to Manhattan's east side into Grand Central Terminal. The tunnel engineering contract has a construction value of over $1.4 billion. The entire $2.3 billion East Side Access project is the largest single construction program ever undertaken by the MTA. The tunnel engineering portion encompasses the construction of new soft-ground tunnels in Queens that will connect to the existing 63rd Street tunnel, and new hard-rock tunnels under Manhattan's west side leading to Grand Central Terminal, as well as a new station in Sunnyside, Queens and new yards and maintenance facilities. The joint venture's work involves planning, preliminary and final design engineering and construction phase services. The LIRR is the busiest commuter railroad system in the country, yet its only entry into Manhattan is Penn Station on the west side. Penn Station has already reached its capacity and is constrained for future growth. The East Side Access project will ease congestion at Penn Station by offering direct service between Long Island and east Midtown Manhattan. An early study found that over one-half of the LIRR's customers work within the Grand Central Terminal area. Providing service into the terminal will save nearly 100,000 commuters more than 30 minutes each day, reduce traffic congestion and improve air quality. (STV via Steve Benkovitz- posted 2/02"
Just to summarized all the information I've received. Amtrak trains coming in to New York's Penn cross Hell's gate at reach Manhattan via Long Island. Do trains such as the Adirondack from Montreal use the route as suggested by RedbirdR33 along the Hudson (West Side Railway) and into Penn at 33rd Street? There must be a tunnel under Riverside Park. Also, when is the proposed tunnel into GCT from Long Island due for?
Many thanks.
Amtrak trains to New England (New Haven and points north and east) use the Hell Gate route to/from Penn Station. Amtrak trains to upstate New York (Albany and points north and west) use the Hudson River route. As for the tunnel connection from LI to GCT, it is at least a decade away, even though the tunnel under the East River has already been built - these trains will use the lower level of the 63rd St. tunnel, whose upper level is now used by subway trains to Roosevelt Island and 21 St./Queensbridge stations. Connecting the tunnel to GCT is the hard part; a connection on the Queens end also needs to be built. And yes, there HAS been some discussion of connecting Penn Station and GCT directly in Manhattan. Whether or not that will actually be done is still an open question.
Only trains on the Empire Corridore use the west side of manhattan. Trains bound for Albany and and points NorthWest of their go up the westside of manhattan using dual mode DC electric thrid rail underunning shoes and diesel (MetroMorth is Overrunning 3rd rail).
All service to Boston is via AC overhead via east river tubes then Hells Gate. There is an engine switch at New Haven (? Not sure if they wre gonna move the engine change point like they did in Philly) to diesel and most trains split service along the water to boston and in land to Springfield.
Just a follow -- AMTRACK is electifying the water route to Boston, so there will be all electric service soon.
AMTRAK's new Electric locomotives have some 'spy photos' in the March issue of Railfan and the February issue of Trains.
-Hank
Actually, Erich, there is current examination of a proposal to connect Penn Station and Grand Central Through a Manhattan Link by a Port Authority/MTA/NJ Transit cooperative group. See the following text extracted from
http://www.tstc.org/bulletin/19980807/mtr18405.htm
"A draft of the findings of the most recent phase of the multi-agency [Port Authority/MTA/NJTransit] "Access to the Region's Core" (ARC) project concludes that the best way to meet regional rail needs is a new Hudson River tunnel (Secaucus-Penn Station) and underground link between Penn Station and Grand Central Terminal"
More detail is also available at other Web Sites using 'Access to Region's Core' as search criteria.
Actually, Erich, there is current examination of a proposal to connect Penn Station and Grand Central Through a Manhattan Link by a Port Authority/MTA/NJ Transit cooperative group. See the following text extracted from
http://www.tstc.org/bulletin/19980807/mtr18405.htm
"A draft of the findings of the most recent phase of the multi-agency [Port Authority/MTA/NJTransit] "Access to the Region's Core" (ARC) project concludes that the best way to meet regional rail needs is a new Hudson River tunnel (Secaucus-Penn Station) and underground link between Penn Station and Grand Central Terminal"
More detail is also available at other Web Sites using 'Access to Region's Core' as search criteria.
For the most detail, see
http://www.eclipse.net/~scheurle/njarp/arc_summ.html
I was asked about an recent posting regarding R-32s on the G line. In it I stated that R-32s do not have MDCs in the #1 cab. Of course this is incorrect as both cabs on the R-32 have door controls. Don't know what I was thinking but I'm sorry for the confusion.
It's been widely reported that Penn Station is now utilized at approximately 110% of it's capacity. With the LIRR preparing to run diesel service directly into Penn. Station too, this can only get worse. With the completion of the Woodside Station, would it now be feasible to make Woodside a seperate zone (Zone 2) along with Hunters Point and LIC and offer customers a reduction from the Zone One fare for not using Penn. Station?
I don't know if many Manhattan commuters would be convinced to change for the subway at Woodside, but it could be worth a try. As it stands now, though, none of the Hunterspoint Avenue or LIC trains stop at Woodside.
If I remember correctly, in the 70's the LIRR had a lower fare for Zone 1B which was the ENY / Nostrand / Flatbush Ave. branch.
The #7 is packed, so I don't know that getting people to take it would help anything. Thanks to the Manhattan Bridge, the only Brooklyn subways with room are the A/C/F, which could add trains, but are also the only ones which do not stop at Atlantic Terminal.
The long run LIRR solution is the GCT connection.
As a short run pallative, perhaps more B division cars could be purchased, and an LIRR terminal could be built in the Sunnyside Yard adjacent to the 36th St station. With the 63rd St tunnel opening, there will be more capacity on the Queens Blvd line. Perhaps they could add more trains they they had planned, both on the R and on the Q/V. There seems to be plenty of capacity there, if the 60th St and 63rd St tunnels can take 25 to 30 trains each. You could run 30 locals, like there are 30 expresses, and terminate the extras at Whitehall or 2nd Ave.
So as not to waste a buck, perhaps the grade separated junction over to the new station could designed to be used, eventually, as the start of the GCT connection.
[re making Woodside a separate fare zone in order to take pressure off NYP]
Woodside's a somewhat questionable choice due to crowding on the 7. What would make more sense is making Flatbush Avenue a separate zone as there's plenty of capacity there. While the IRT from Atlantic is crowded, there's available capacity on the N and R, which offer only a slightly longer trip to lower Manhattan.
I'm not trying to be an alarmist but would like to call attenton to the fact that this may very well be the last full year for some very good electric rail vehicles:
1) IRT R-26 (7750-7859)and R-28 (7860-7959). In all likelyhood these
will be retired first as the R-142's come on line. I believe these
are the last ACF built rapid transit cars still in service.
2) PATH PA-1 (600-709)(100-151),PA-2 (710-723)(152-181) and PA-3
(724-769). The PA is already taking about ordering the PA-5's.
The PA-3's are the only rapid transit cars in the lower 48 built
by Hawker-Siddeley).
3) MNRR ACMU (1100-1187). These EMU's were originally built for the
New York Central Railroad and are great fun to ride.
4) NJT PCC's(1-29). Arguably the best maintained PCC's anywhere.It
won't take long to replace a 20+ car fleet.
While its true some of these may see service into the year 2000 they will become incresingly rarer and relegated to peak hour service. Get your pictures now.
Best Wishes,RedbirdR33
> The PA-3's are the only rapid transit cars in the lower 48 built
> by Hawker-Siddeley).
Nope!! The Boston MBTA Blue & Orange line cars are both Hawker-Siddeley built. In fact, it's pretty obvious they based the designs for those cars (built between 1978-1980) on the PATH PA-3 order from the early 70s. We have some pictures here on this site but the New England Transportation web site has much more detailed information on the MBTA fleet.
-Dave
Very interesting.I stand corrected.
Redbird
Another interesting thing about Hawker-Siddley was that they were an aircraft company - they made the Trident jetliner. Boeing's knockoff ofd it, the 727 sold better though...
Notice their big fondness for simulated woodgrain finishes in the Boston stuff. It even extends to the *BUILDERS PLATE*!
They really are some of the least attractive rapid transit cars I know. I take the Orange Line almost daily, but have no real fondness for the rolling stock.
Nothing personal against Boston (one of my fav cities to visit), but I never liked their rolling stock either -- too PATH-like for my taste. I like the "ruggedness" of New York City's cars. The old Philly system also had similar "rugged" looking rolling stock.
Doug aka BMTman
The Red Line is different. I actually like the 1600-1700's, which are a whole lotta fun and really make all the right noises going 50 or 55 (can't remember which...Gerry?) on the Braintree branch. The 1800's are novel and are comfortable to ride, if you're lucky enough to get one without flat spots on its wheels.
The last time I took the red line the other year, it reminded me of my subway trips when I was a kid. Actually, it was even louser than that. As a matter of fact, I don't think I've ever been on such loud trains before in my life. Lotsa flat wheels (was winter). All I remember from the trip was the loud *bang bang bang* noise of the wheels. Man, you couldn't even hear yourself THINK in those things. The new talking cars are much quieter, though the R-44 / 46 cars strike me as being much quieter than them.
Last year the reason for all the flat spots was that the Red Line's wheel turning lathe was broken and they were borrowing the one from the Orange Line when they could. Things seem to be better now, but the snooty residents of Beacon Hill where the Red Line emerges from undergound on its way from Pahk Street to Chahles/MGH are still complaining that the Red Line is too loud for their neighborhood.
Excuse me, but hasn't the train been there for at least 75 years? It's not like people bought condos and then noticed a week later that there's an elevated in their back yards.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, the 01400s were the Red Line's worst rattletraps. The maximum speed limit is 50, and the flat wheels usually happen in emergency stops. The cab signal system will do that if you are running manual and don't slow down fast enough. I couldn't imagine the Red Line without flat wheels. Some of the 01400s seemed like they had four sides :)
Reminds me of the old C&O trackage going from Richmond down to Tidewater Virginia back in the '60s. We called it the "Square Wheels Line", due more to the condition of the track than the coaches (not that they were any bargains, mind you). The Seaboard Air Line Virginia Division (Raleigh to Richmond) also carried the same designation for a while.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'll ditto Gerry's remarks. When the 1400s were running, I couldn't keep track of the number of times that we slid through Charles/MGH inbound to Boston; it's a slight downhill, outdoors. It also happened to me on a set of 1700s last fall, when there had been a slight mist to dampen the rails. I happened to be standing on the platform and could see the look on the operator's face as he slid 1/2 car length past the end of the platform. (He had to call Central Control for permission to back-up; this isn't as "bad" a mistake for an operator as it is in NYC.)
Do you suppose that flat spots on the wheels was the main reason some of the R-10s were as painfully noisy towards the end as they were? The first car of the last train of R-10s I ever rode on was extremely noisy in that regard.
Witch line is getting the R 142 first. The No. 2 or No.5 or both?
The #2 will get R142 and i don't know #5 will get R142 , i think they might get R62A from #6. #6 maybe or maybe not will get R142. If not than the #5 will get R142.
My guess is that both #2 AND #5 will get R142s since they are retooling the 180th Street car facility to handle these new birds.
Wayne
I wonder if the Newark PCCs will be replaced gradually or all at once (say, over the course of one weekend). I know that there cities - Boston, for example - that have operated pantograph and trolley pole equiped cars off the same wire. I think trolley poles require a switch on the wire itself, while pantographs don't.
I also wouldn't be surprised if cities with new PCC operations - like San Francisco or Kenosha - want to buy those cars. I have even heard speculation that NJ Transit itself may keep some of them for a future heritage trolley operation.
When the PCC's replaced the older trolleys it was done over a period of several days if not weeks. A flatbed trailer would pull up to one of the unused ramps to an abandoned line and the PCC would operate down the ramp into the subway. Then a trolley would run up the ramp and onto the flatbed to be taken away.
Redbrid
Boston (and SF) use an adapter for trolley frogs which carry the pans just below the frog casting. Trolley poles go through the frog like they always do.
Boston no longer uses the adapters, as PCC's are confined to Mattapan-Ashmont. SF MUNI still does, as LRV's and trolley pole cars use some of the same trackage.
As to the Newark PCC's, rumor has it that NJT and MUNI have already signed a letter of intent for the sale of most of the PCC's. NJT may keep a couple, and several museums want one or two as well.
At any rate, the PCC's still have several months (perhaps 10 or more) before they are replaced. The trolley wire has yet to be refitted for pantograph operation. It will have to be totally restrung, as cap and cone double curve hangers and pans cannot coexist. As the City Subway has hundreds of that type of hanger. It will be a big operation, with either total weekend shutdowns or lots of night work. And, current operations must be continued until a suffucent number of LRV's are delivered and accepted.
Will they simply refit the trolley wire, or will they put in a whole new modern catenary? Also, what becomes of the old trolley hardware? I'd imagine at least a few meseums would like a supply of that stuff :)
Probably number two. I suspect that the old hardware will wind up at either Seashore or Branford. The reason for the total refit is due to the curve hanger incomaptibility (look at the current overhead and you will see what I mean.) and the fact that pantograph wire is staggered from side to side to minimize wear on the pantograph shoes. That stagger also makes use by trolley poles somewhat harder.
Boston tows the Type 5 and the PCC, simply because the cars have to be operated very slowly to keep from constantly dewiring.
NJT may just decide to shut the line down for rewiring, rather than try to meld the two types of collectors. We shall see.
I know 'properly strung' catenary is supposed to zig zag, but lots of old stuff doesn't - take the New Haven line above the NY state line and you'll see what I mean. BTW - this brings up a few nagging questions I have...
1) Supposedly there is a speed restriction on the New Haven line in very hot or very cold weather. (due to the wires) Does anyone know if this is true and what it is?
2) How do they decide how to stick the various supports in when they re do parts of the line? Watching up from New Rochelle, the supports on the line seem to be rather radom outside of the turns. Is there an actualy methodology to this?
3) What is the history of the catenary over the Path tracks to Newark? When was it used, and for what? (PRR commuter trains?)
This one is for Ripley's believe it or not. On Saturday February 13 at 10:25 pm a N train stopped at Bedford Park Blvd northbound track on the D line. At first i thought it was going to the Concourse yard. The conductor of the N train opens the doors and passengers get off.
It completes its run to the last stop at 205th Street.
I catch the downtown D train at 10:34 pm at Bedford Park Blvd and at 183nd-183rd St the N train goes past us to go back downtown on the express track.
To bad i did not have my scanner with me to find why the N train came up the D Concourse line.
Good their have been a General Order or the motorperson pressed the wrong button on the Punch Box, or he/she received a command via the radio to go up the Concourse D line?
The roll signs said 57th st/7th ave to Coney Island Brooklyn on the N train.
Charlie Muller Bedford Park Blvd.
That N train more then likely was reroute to replace a gap in service on the D line or a disruption on the N line. But normally when a train goes to a other then the home termanal it suppose to run light (out of service) back to the home term. Unless that Term. needs the train
Dave Foster R 26, i forgot to say that when it went back downtown on the express track on the concourse it was running light. I assumed it was going back to its home line and they sent it on the express track instead of sending it and tying up the local track with a extra train.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
That might be a rule violation. The Pasenger train is suppose to have priarty over a light train. But I seen that happen alot.
That might be a rule violation. The Pasenger train is suppose to have priarty over a light train. But I seen that happen alot.
Unless I read the post wrong, I see no 'rule violation'. The train light train was sent down the express track at 10:34 PM. At that time, no other tains normally use the middle track. There was no real question of priority.
Ok I did not explain what I was saying that good. It not a rule violation to run a train past another. But Charlie said that when the train crossed back to the local in front of the road at the Switch. Unless I miss understud the last post. Now if the D train couth up to the N train as the train just about left the Switch then no violation. I not sure if there is something on the books but a old Motor Instructor that the road did PRI if the two trains were at a switch. Thats how I understud the post.
Please note I'm an A Divison man and hasn't been on the D line in the Bronx so I don't know the set up
I'm not sure about the timing but I do have a pretty good idea about how the Bedford Park Terminal is layed out. Bedford Park is peculiar because you can't get to the middle from the middle (as they say). Meaning: if you come in against the wall (southbound) you can go down either C1 (local) or C3 (express). A southbound local (in this case, the road train) could either come in on C1 (local) or C5 (middle) track and continue down the local. However, in order to go down C3, the train would have had to go through Bedford Park on C1. Now if the two trains left at the same time, the road train would have had to leave from the middle and the light from against the wall. There would be no conflict in leaving due to the configuration of the terminal. However, if I read the original posting correctly, the light train left first. This would not necessarily block the road train, if it were on the middle track.
My impression was that the road train left Bedford Pk first and the train running light came along several minutes later and went down the middle track. BTW - Before I moved out of NYC I lived Bedfored Pk was home to me also (actually I lived at 204th St and Grand Concourse. During my last days there I came from Manhattan on re-routed E train of R-46's. At one point it seem like trains from the #6 were getting re-routed to cover for #4 and/or #5 service. Once a caught one heading southbound at Mt Eden Ave during the PM rush hour. Also, many #6 also get treated to an express run on Lex Ave and once I was a #6 that not only became a Lex Ave express, but it went on to Utica Ave.
Thats not uncomon. I had lots of Express rides on my No. 6 train. Most because of a gap in No. 6 service. My best Express ride was in june. I was the 15:15 at 15:22 Brooklyn Bridge. I was told to go express to Grand Central because my leader was at 33 St. So as I passed 28 St. Control tells Grand Central tower the 15:07 Bridge is Brakes in Emergyency North of 59 st. So i continued Express to 125th St. Then I did my regular Pelham Express to Parkchestor.
Also in August there was a major police action on the NO.2&5 LINE AT
149 St-3AVE. witch spred to 149 St GC. witch then stoped the No. 4 service. It was because of a man with gun running throw the tunnal to excape from police. That was crazy! Some No. 6 trains went EXP to Brooklyn and others stayed local to Brooklyn Bridge. I went Express but only to Bowling Green because there a 5 train behind me witch was turned at 86 St.
Let me clairfy the post. The D train left C1 track southbound against the wall and then went left according to the signals at the south end of the station. When the D train pulled into the 182nd-183rd Street southbound the N train came downtown running light on the express track. This is not a rule violation. The N train came in after the D train on C1 after we left Bedford Park Blvd, cause to get on the Express track southbound you have to go on track C1 southbound against the wall to go express southbound. Its the only way. The middle track in Bedford Park Blvd, going southbound, gets you onto the local southbound track.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
I remember right before the #5 received redbirds, seeing one pull into Franklin, but it was a rerouted 6.
Some time after that, a # or R-62's had wound up at Flatbush. The northbound crew was confused, and for the whole trip didn't know where they were going. They followed the #2 route, but then were sent to Lenox terminal.
I would like to know on what IRT lines are the new R142 cars going to go, how many will each line get & what seriel numbers will they be using. Please post on subtalk.
Sincerely,
Michael
I can give you the unit numbers for R142:
R142 (primary order) 6301-6980
R142 (option order) 6981-7210
R142A(primary order) 7211-7660
R142A(option order) 7661-7760
Kind of like the old days with R16, R17, R21, R22 and a few R26 numbers re-used. To my knowledge, no car series has ever worn #69xx or the numbers 7000, 7001, 7002, and 7030 to 7049. 7003-7029 were BMT multisectional/Little Zephyr cars back in the 30s thru the 50s. (If I am wrong please advise)
While I have heard that these cars will be heading for the #2 and #5 lines (and probably the #4 and #6 as well if all are ordered), I don't have a breakdown as to how many will be going where. That they can't do until they have most or all of them. The number will change as the units arrive.
Wayne
I agree with Wayne as to the routes to get the 142s. Since the #3 and #4 lines got the last fleet of new IRT cars that would seem to be the logical conclusion. My Transit PR connection has told me that the way new cars are dispersed through the system is based on whatever line has been neglected for the longest time. And then those lines of that particular division will alternate equipment from there onward.
Doug aka BMTman
When are the 142's due to arrive?
Moe, The R142's could start arriving as early as 2 months from now, but it won't be until the end of the year or in early 2000 until the entire fleet arrives. Of course, the trains will be placed on revenue track as they come in.-Nick
When originally delivered in 1934 the "Green Hornet" was numbered 7000-8000-9000-8001-7001.It was renumbered 7003 a,b,c,b1,a1 in 1936.
When originally delivered in 1934 the "Zephyr" was numbered 7002-8002-9001-8003-7003. It was renumbered 7029 a,b,c,b1,a1 in 1936.
Best Wishes,Larry,Redbird
Based on the past, this is what I think will happen when the R142's arrive. Back in 4/62 the # 1 line had R21 & R22 cars, the # 6 had R17 cars. The rest of the I.R.T main line had some R21/22's, R26/R28's, but a lot of Low V's. Even in late 1963 the #4 had many Low V's. Let us now move up 1 month to 5/62. Who got the R 29's? The # 1 line. Almost all of the R29's & R 33's ran their "madien voyages", on the #1 line back in 1962-1963. It was not until the fall of 1963, when the R12, R14, R15 cars were removed off the #7 line, and were scattered amung other lines except the #6, that many of the R29/R33 were put onto other lines.
Now it is 1985. The #1 line had a full mixture of cars. R12/14/15/17/21/22/29/36. Many more were old cars, then new. Who got the first R62A's? Yes, the #1 line. In fact history repeated. The #1 line had the 1600 cars first. Again as new cars came in the "older" R62A's went to the #6 & #3 lines, with the #1 line keeping the "newest" cars. (2200's--2400's)
Back to the question where the R142's will go first? I say the #1 line. The R 62A's will then go to the #7 line. The R36WF cars will first replace the R26/28 cars, followed by the R29/33 cars on the #2 & 5 lines. As more R142's are delivered, they too will go to the #1 line. "Older" R142's will then be transfered to the #2. Some will go to the # 5. But the #5 will be last to get them, if at all.
The MTA works in funny ways.
This was just an opinion, not fact.
Thank You
Joel
What you are saying makes sense. Once their is a sufficient number of R-142's on the property to displace the approximate number of R-62'a to the #7 it would make sense to concentrate the remaining Redbirds on the mainline as oppossed to having two separate groups as we have now.
Best Wishes,Redbird
But If the #1 gets the R-142, wouldn't the South Ferry Station have to be change a bit? Since my guess is the door positions of the R-142 is different from R-62. Plus, are they also going to dispose of the single R-33WF cars? Since they don't really need them if the #7's not using them unless they give the #3 the R-36WF cars which normally runs 9 cars. And exactly when are they planning to deliver the R-142 and when will they be in service?
Here we go again. The R142 will be replace not all redbirds R26/28/29 on #2 Line, #5 Line and maybe #7 Line. Here the list of Redbirds R26/28/29/33/and 36 assignments.
#1 none
#2 R33-GE 406
#3 none
#4 R33-GE 88
#5 R26-GE 110, R28-GE 100, R29-GE 118
#6 R29-WH 118, R36-WH 74
#7 R33-WH S39, R36-GE 212, R36-WH 138 "S" mean single cars
Total Redbirds 1403 and MTA order R142 1080.
That's just for the primary orders - don't forget the option orders on both R142 (230), and R142A (150), which would bring the total order to 1460 units. The NYCT may very well exercise these options AND keep some of the Redbirds not suffering from excessive rust/corrosion.
Wayne
What type of car ran on the Grand Central shuttle before the R-62's?
Hey Jack it was R17 6500s, but R62 1301-1625 replace R17 in 1988 untill 1994 or 1995 I think. R62A 1651-1920 from the #6 line took over Grand Central. The last 16 R17 cars assigned to 42st in the 80s and they were Fox Red panint scheme. Go check "Last Stronghold for Redbirds" in the list of "subtalk"
There will be no 142 or 142A's going on the #7 line. Remember the #7 train is 11 cars long. These cars come in 5 car units.......
Thank 3trainmike, that mean #7 will keep R33/36 and might replace by R62.
They are coming n configurations other than of just 5 cars. In fact, according to the Bombardier web page on the subject, there are 2 9-car units, 2 11-car units, and 1 6-car unit as part of the order. The base train is an A-B-B-B-A configuration, with a base train being an
A-B-B-B-A+A-B-B-B-A arrangement. I would suppose the 'odd' units could be arranged as 4 6-car units (A-B-B-B-B-A), 4 3-car units (A-B-A) and 2 additional 5-car units. Or they could make all the extra units 3 cars (for 12 3-car sets) and the additional 5-car sets. I couldn't find any specifics on the Kawasaki units.
-Hank
The cars MUST have the 'important things' in the same place. Doors especially, lest many stations need reconfiguring. The IRT is unigue in that the longest a car can be is a little over 50', and it makes little sense to order anything shorter. Doors need to line up with gap fillers at South Ferry and 14st/Union Square. The conductor and motorman's positions need to line up with the CCTV monitors at several stations. BMT/IND cars can be several different sizes, of which theyu now only use 60' and 75' cars, but they can obviously build any length in between. Here, things may not line up exactly. Some stations have different boards for different length trains, and another board entirely for the R110B.
Oh, and if you didn't look hard at the gap fillers at South Ferry and Union Square, they are about 3' wider than they need to be. So they have a little leeway.
-Hank
Could what you are saying have anything to do with the 207st shop being nearest to the number 1 line?
I do not think it has anything to do with the 207 St. shop. That ramp from the #1 line to the yard was not there in the 1960's or 70's. Does anyone know when it was built? There was no direct connection.
They built the ramp to 207st yard from start in 1987 to 1988 because i used to take the #1 line to school every morning.
Conspiracy on the #1? Heck no! I wrote above about the #1 line getting new cars in 1962 & 1985. They may have also gotten the first new R21/22's in 1957. I was too young then. I was too short to look out my windows. After the R12/14/15's were taken off the #7 line in Oct., 1963, The #1 got the marjority of them. Gone were many of the R29/33's. What a let down! By the fall of 1965 all of the R29/33's were gone. In Jan. of 1966, #8600 thru 8687 were reassigned to the #1 & #3 lines along with 6700-6744, 71??- 74?? & most of the R12/14/15's.
Some people may call the R12/14's beautiful, but I called them HELL in July & August, with their little fans. Yes the #1 & #3 lines shared cars. They were "traded" to each other lines all of the time.
These cars remained on the #1 & 3 until 1985. The conspiracy lied on the #6 during these years. The #6 had 6745-6899, 7800's, 8570-8599, upper 90?? 9100-9305, no R12/14/15/21/22's. In late 1968 the # 6 gave the CB series cars to the # 1. They were really the red R36's. 9523-9557. (Not all were CB's.) The cars on the # 1 were never washed until Oct., 1968. At that time only some R29's were washed. Other lines had some cars cleaned. Other lines had the R17's painted red. Not the #1. The #1 started off with a BANG in the 1960's, but went BUST by late 1965.
Did you ever see a solid train of R-12/14s on the 1? Except for when they ran on the 3rd Ave. el, I don't believe they ever ran in solid trains again after being yanked from the Flushing line.
No there was never a full set of R12 or R14 or R15's ran. However, there were full sets of R21/22's. Of course ther had to be full sets of R29/33's, when they were the only ones on the line. Come to think about it, even in 1964 & 1965 they mixed all kinds of cars up on a train.
Back then the #1 ran only 8 cars, 6 on the weekend.
Joel
I remember a time in the early 70's when the 1 seemed to have only R-26-33 type cars (don't know exactly which) back then, when I was young, I identified cars by their windows, and the one always seemed to have nothing but the unopenable single pane end doors (i.e. 26-36) My father used to take me from my godmother's near Lenox Terminal, and change for the 1 to get the D at 59th. The 3 had almost everything, but the 1 was like a "stepping stone" to the BMT IND, because of it's similar cars (I didn't know about the different dimensions, so the R-26--33 was the same as a 27/30; and the BMT/IND had no counterpart to the 21/22's, and I didn't know about the 11's and 16's.)
Sounds like you are describing the #6 line. The #1 never had R26/28 cars.
I didn't notice the difference between 26/28, and 29/33 back then. I only knew the storm door windows.
I show the following (from 1969-73): 7882-7883, 7948-7949, 7796-7797,
7790-7791, 7750-7751, 7798-7799, 7756-7757, 7930-7931, all sighted on the #1 line. All IRT cartypes were found on the #1 - R12, R14, R15, R17, R21, R22, R26, R28, R29, R33 and R36ML. I have examples of unit numbers for each.
Wayne
You're right about the R-26/33s - today's Redbirds - being very similar to the R-27/30s. They were stamped out of the same mold, you might say. Ditto for the R-10s and their R-12/14 counterparts. I can't vouch for what you say you saw; I very rarely rode on the IRT back then except for the 7 when I would go to see the Mets at Shea.
As for the R-21/22s and an IND/BMT counterpart, it depends on what you're looking for. In terms of the drop-sash storm door windows, they were unique; no other R units had them (the BMT standards and Triplex units did). The side doors and lack of weatherstripping or grommets around the windows were the same ones used on the R-10s, R-12s, R-14s, R-16, and R-17s.
Of course, the most obvious difference between the IRT and IND/BMT cars was the number of sets of doors per side: 3 sets on IRT cars; 4 on IND/BMT cars.
I would like to know what subway yards will the Nassau St & Southern Brooklyn M trains be coming out of when Willimsburg Bridge is closed & what subway cars will be used on these two lines. Please post on subtalk.
Sincerely,
Michael
I would think that the East New York complex or CI yards would be the obvious locations for cars. I think that the 36th Street original BMT yard is too small to hold many subway fleets.
Did the R-17's come delivered in a dark green scheme? I'm looking for the earliest scheme I can paint them in. Any suggestions?
Thanks!
They were painted in a maroon scheme. The one at the transit museum is in original colors. The first cars with the olive drab were the R-16's(BMT) and the R-21's (IRT).
Redbird
Thanks. I thought the R-21's came in green...
Without car washers, all of these cars turned the same dirty black color after a few months of operation.
No car washes was the "in" thing for the MTA in the 1960's, except for the #7 cars. Every car was black within 9 months!
Did the R-17's come delivered in a dark green or brown scheme? I'm looking for the earliest scheme I can paint them in. Any suggestions?
Thanks!
The R-17's were delivered in a maroon scheme suprisingly.
The R-17's were delivered in a dark maroon. Please see the Images Replicas web site and the "Layouts" portion of Pat Villani's web site for color pix of my R-17 models, both plastic (IR) and brass (MTS).
You might try Floquil's "Wisconsin Central Maroon" which is a good match to the original color chips provided me by Nate Gerstein, a recognized authority on the R-17, as well as all things "IRT." Just be sure to prime the car surface first with an acrylic primer or Floquil's "Barrier." The IR cars styrene is very sensitive to the solvents in Floquil paints (even the "black label" variety).
Thanks Frank. It's hard to tell sometimes on a "cheap" computer monitor what color those scanned photos are supposed to be. I also appreciate the warning about the styrene in those kits-I have 6 in progress right now!
Do you have the URL for Image Replicas? Also do they make kits or plans for box girder elevated structures?
Wayne
Images Replicas:
http://www.imagesreplicas.com/
Only cars, trucks, decals, 3rd rail kits (very nice), and subway entrances. (as far as I know)
For a comprehensive listing of traction and subway model manufacturers and suppliers, go to http://www.eastpenn.org (East Penn Traction Club) - they maintain an excellent list.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Friday February 19, 1999 7 p.m. to 9 p.m.
Electric Railroaders Association monthly meeting
Agenda: slide show on Long Island Railroad
and Los Angeles - San Deigo transit systems
Location: 101 Murray Street lower Manhattan
College of Insurance Bldg.
( three blocks north of World Trade Center )
more information call 718 224 - 6824 evenings
Or see our website:
http://members.aol.com/rob110178/era.html
David
Having visted the great city of Boston several times and ridden their great transit system I would like to know what actually pervents the three rapid transit lines from inerlining with each other.Given the obvious that the Red Line cars are too long for the Blue Line Tunnel,what is the reason? Are all three lines the same width or different like the IRT or BMT? Can a Blue Line car run on the Red or Orange Lines even if the reverse isn't true? Lastly wasn't there a connection years ago between either the Red and Blue or the Red and Orange Lines? Thanks in advance for any info.
Regards,Larry,Redbird
All three lines have different "loading guages". The East Boston Tunnel was originally built for streetcars and converted in 1924 to high platform rapid transit. Thus, subway cars built to streetcar clearences. The Orange line was once upon a time an elevated, so lighter weight cars have always been used there. The Red line was built to essentially BRT specs, so the equipment there has always been bigger than the other two.
Blue and Orange line cars can run on the Red, just like IRT cars go anywhere on the NYC system.
When the East Boston Tunnel was converted in 1924 until the line was extended over the BRB&L row in the 1950's, the cars were towed from the Bodoin (sp?) incline (left over from streetcar operations) to one of the Main Line el shops - over street trackage.
Orange and Blue Line carbodies are the same cross section but on the Blue Line cars the floor is lower to match the platform heights. Thus the Blue Line cars wouldn't work well on the Orange Line since the wider part of the carbody might strike platforms. Loading guage on both lines is 8'10". Red Line cars are 9'6" at the step plates. All cars are wider above the floor, but the Orange and Blue Line cars taper inward from the belt rail to the eaves. Car lengths are:
Red Line 69'3" (all cars)
Orange Line 46' (Nos 1-10), 55'(No. 11), 65'(No. 12)
Blue Line about 48' (series differ slightly)
Orange Line cars were used on the Red Line for a while in the late teens. They were equipped with step extenders to bridge the gap to the platform.
Until 1952, all Blue Line cars were maintained at the Eliot Shops on the Red Line. There was a portal at the end of the present tail track under Cambridge St. at which point the street runs downhill. There was a single track in Cambridge St, which followed the westbound roadway around Charles Station and over the Longfellow Bridge. It joined the Red Line Trackage just before Kendall Portal. The track was equipped with overhead wire, and a special trolley was used to power the cars. Once on the Red Line they again ran from the 3rd Rail.
Gerry
It might be a little early to start taking about a funeral but I would not be surprised to see the #5 become the last line to operate the Redbirds. Right now the # 5 has the oldest cars in the system,the R-26 and R-28 as well as the R-29 and R-33. It seems that the oldest cars are most times, but not always,relegated to a line that runs peak hours only or does night run allnight. The #5 needs only two or three trains for night service. I recall that the Lo-V's spent their last days in mainline service on the # 3 and the Bowling Green Shuttle.(3 Av El not withstanding). The R-10's and R-30 GOH made their last runs on the CC a rush hour only service.
Regards,Redbird
You definitely have a point even though it didn't quite happen that way with the R-17's. Most of them were on the #4 when the R-62's started replacing them.
At least the R-17's were given a chance to go out in style.There were about 16 or so cars assigned to the 42 Street Shuttle and repainted in the Fox Red paint scheme. They were kept clean. They were the last R-17's in service and on 10/2/87 they were transfered to the #5 and given a chance to run on the mainline in express service no less.They made their last run from Flatbush Av to Dyre Av on Monday,February 29,1988.The consist was 6620-6614-6550-6681-6579-6618-6624-6623-6619-6626. Hail and farewell to some good cars.
Regards,Redbird
Finally, someone answers the question that I posted months ago on SubTalk! I mean, I wanted which R17s were painted redbird red, but didn't know which cars got the paint treatment. Yup, these cars survived hell! Most of the R17's companions went to scrap wearing grafitti. These R17s were not only for Shuttle and 5 service, but way back in the beginning, when they were first painted redbird red (1985), these cars got to run on the 7 in place of R33 single units. The R33s were undergoing a general overhaul at the time. You should also add to your list of R17s in redbird red: 6665, 6688, 6699. 6688 is still in redbird red at the Shore Line Trolley Museum. From the sounds of things, she'll be in this scheme for a while (A Branford Confidant Says This).
6623, 6665, and 6699 were sent to scrap...
The remaining redbirds, such as 6550 and 6626 went to work service in 1988. They appeared as redbirds with yellow stripes and then yellow with black stripes. I would like to see a working train of R17s for Museum Service (6688 included). What do you think?
And finally, there was a farewell to the R17s fan trip in 1988. I only wish I had been there...
-Constantine
Yes, I'd have to agree - The R-17's did go out with a bang. I had actually forgotten about those that left the shuttle and got a chance stretch their legs (so to speak) on the #5 line.
Wayne
And to think I was in the city at the end of October in 1987 and missed yet another opportunity! I even rode on the Lex once or twice and didn't see these cars. I did get to take a B or D across the Manhattan Bridge via the south side tracks and had a nice express run up Broadway. Also took an F to Smith-9th and walked over to the 47th St. Camera warehouse to pick up a fancy Nikon carrying case. From there I took a G to Queens Plaza (only the third time I had ever ridden that line - haven't been on it since), and an F to Union Turnpike.
I read in a previous thread that the tunnel was originally built tieless and now they are adding ties and roadbed. Isn't the tunnel only about 10 years old? Isn't tieless (rail anchors in poured concrete?) more sturdy and lower in maintance than ties and ballast?
Concrete is more brittle and it cracks.
They are replacing the original concrete ties with new ones. The original, experimental fasteners are failing and are replaced with Pandrol clips. No Ballast
Since N Service was in 2 sections this weekend (57/7av to Coney Isl and Queens Plz. To 71st/Continetal ) It seemed like 9 out of 10 trains running on the 57 to Coney route were Slant R-40's. I rode the N line 7 times this weekend, and every trip was on a slant. This would make sense since twice as many trains are needed to run a line in 2 sections. It also seemed that these slants were rushed into service, for most of them were still sporting Q's on the roll signs. I also saw some yellow B's and Yellow Diamond M's.
Yellow diamond M? That's a new one in my book! Are you sure they weren't diamond W's - that's a sign that the Slants have but isn't currently in use. I have seen the Broadway B before - they still have it up at Coney Island station on a few signs. Interesting! I wonder if any of the 4400 series cars were out there...
Wayne
The "M" is an upside down "W". I guess they changed the signs so fast, and since "N" looks the same upside down, they don't realize they need to turn the sign one more space (N is next to W, and when the upside down N appears on the inside, it's an upside down W on the outside)
P.S the same thing also used to happen with the regular brown M on the R-68 signs (the original ones did have it!), and there were reports of a mysterious brown "W"
I just received where i work that China approved a second subway line for the major southern city of Guangzhou, the official Xinhua News Agency said today. The 14 mile long line is expected to cost $1.3 billion to build.
70 percent of the equipment used in the construction will be locally made, in contrast to earlier building that used most imported equipment.
It did not say when construction was to begin or give other details.
If you have a map at your home or job Guangzhou is better known as Canton to us. It is near the South China Sea. It is a few miles inland of Victoria, China.
This might be put in your local papers as a small article.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
[The 14 mile long line is expected to cost $1.3 billion to build.]
Imagine if New York construction costs were that low ...
When you can use forced labor, lax safety practices, and non-existence anyone looking to benefit themselves, you can accomplish much.
-Hank
Sounds like New York at the turn of the century. (Granted, immigrants weren't exactly slave labor, but they were fairly close to it.)
Actually, 14 miles for $1.3 billion is $100 million per mile. The Nassau St subway cost that, when inflated into 1998 dollars.
I was riding the R southbound into Whitehall station center track. At the Home sig there is a yellow derailer on the track. The Motorman got on the radio and said a few things. The Home sig cleared and the derailer folded up off the track and parked itself under the track. this is the first time I see one. Is there any more in the system. I hate to run a home and run face to face with one of these bad boys (derailer). It looks like it may hurt a bit and get a few days in the street.
Location: Whitehall Station center track. South end of platform you see a Home sig and a few feet behind that is the derailer.
There is a Derailer in E 180 Yard at 16L Home Signal
Track 1S going straight south from the downtown Lex. express at 125th to the local track. Passing by on the exp. I can see some yellow thing on the rail.
I know people aren't supposed to run the signals, but how can they take chances with peopl'e lives, and the equipment if they do? Those are in tunnels with concrete walls, after all,
I don't know why they would risk passendgers lifes. I would feel real sorry for the crew and riders if Grand Central flashed that Home Signal.
Excuse me if this sounds like a silly question, but what would be the purpose of a derailer on mainline track? I can see its usefulness in the Yard or in the Shop, but out on the road?
Wayne
The theroy of a derailler, at least from one book I read on this stuff basically put it this way: "It's better to wreck one train, not two". Yes, doesn't make one feel any better - but - it would still be better the risk the injury / death of a few passengers in the first car, as opposed to having a multicar collision, which could easily kill a few dozen people.
That said, I've never seen one in the subway myself, but I do know they are commonly used. Metro-North's New Haven line has derails a few hundred feet before each drawbridge. Again, do you derail the train, or let it end up in the water? (and these suckers are 13,000kv AC traction).
I'm pretty sure there's a GOOD REASON why such a device is there (in the subway), as anyone involved with trains knows exactly WHAT the purpose of that thing is. Anyway, how old is the use of derails in the subway?
The center track at Whitehall has been used to turn R(EE) trains running between 71-Continental and Whitehall. Thus southbound moves into that track would have priority. The derail would protect northbound trains from entering a head-on situation.
When the N from Brooklyn ran express (eons ago ;) The N from Queens ran local to Whitehall St, where it was turned. The derail prevents trains from running onto either of the tunnel tracks. Since this is located at the end of the station, there is little chance of a train entering the derail at anything better than 10mph (southbound) IIRC, derails can be designed so that they function from only one direction, or from both directions. Better to have a train derail at low speed then to have a collision of 2 trains at a ombined speed of 30mph or better.
-Hank
Derailers are commonly used on freight sidings to stop an unattended car from rolling back onto the main. Derailers at drawbridges are a backup system.As a train approaches an open draw it should be receiving increasingly restrictive signals and slowing down. A low speed derailment while always potentially dangerous may cause only minimal or no injuries. It is preferable to having the train go through an open span. The derails may not function as intended if the train is moving at speed though. This is what happened to CNJ train #3314 on September 15,1958. The train ran at speed through the open Newark Bay Drawbridge and its momentum carried it through the open span even though the derail had worked. The two diesel engines and three coaches went into Newark Bay killing 48 people.
Larry,Redbird
Former Yankee George Sternweiss was a casualty in that disaster.
Derailer are used when there is worry of a parking brake not being set on a train and the train rolls. A train stop will do no good in this circumstance. Used in Fresh Pond Yard lead for this prupose.
So I guess this doubly answers the question at 125th St. Peter's book says this is a storage track, so maybe there is also some rollling away danger as well as collision danger.
There is derailer coming out of Fresh Pond Yard lead.
I've worked the M line for years, and there is no derailer in Fresh Pond yard.
I just saw the movie Central Station, which I recommend highly. The movie is set in and around Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, with some great shots of trains both at Central Station and outside one of the main characters' house. Does anyone know anything about the trains in this movie? They have ribbed stainless sides with doors shaped like those on R1-9's. They collect current overhead via pans, and are so crowded that people hang out of windows and open doors that must be broken or something. Whether this was done for cinematic effect, I don't know. Are these subways or commuter rail? Or isn't there that distinction. Any info will be greatly appreciated.
All,
A month ago, my assistant (Absalom Trudy or ekhenson@prodigy.net) posted some questions to the group under the subject "Doing research on NYC subway in the 60's". The response was great; she rounded up tons of pictures and contacts. Thanks to all who replied, especially Wayne Whitehorne, Steve B., and Doug the BMT man.
I'm now turning this mound of information into actual scenery. We forgot to ask the most basic question, though. How big are these things in the pictures? Specifically, how tall are the ceilings and how big are the doors? None of the pictures I have has a person in it, and I can't remember even the rough sizes. Do you feel crowded by the ceiling? Do tall men have to stoop to get in?
Exact dimensions would be wonderful. Rough sizes (each door is [in a pair] is about the width of your shoulders?) would also be helpful.
Also, have these things changed since 1964? They would seem to be pretty standard, except maybe for new handicapped-accessible cars. Could I call a friend in NYC and have them actually measure a working car (easier than going out to Brooklyn to the museum)? Which lines would you suggest to try this on?
In case you were wondering, the play we are doing research for is a revival of 'Dutchman' by LeRoi Jones, a one-act about a black man and a white woman alone on a subway car in 1964. It starts previews at the Theater at The Improv in Hollywood on March 3rd. The production is getting great "buzz" and the producers hope to bring it to the Cherry Lane in NYC, where it first premiered in 1964. (As with any such statement in LA, this should be taken in a fairly high-sodium kind of way.) Magic Johnson's foundation is planning to bring in high school classes for afternoon shows, and some prominent black celebrities have offered to speak after these shows.
Also, many posters asked which station or line we were re-creating. None specifically; the idea is to just give the look and feel. (Also, signage, lines and even station names are, apparently, copyrighted by the TA.) The details and photographs have been invaluable for that.
[Editorial comment: re-creating specific cars down to the bolts and chewing-gum is an exercise better left to people with lots of money and little creativity. These people generally work in television.]
Again, thanks for all the enthuiastic replies, and any size impressions or numbers would be great!
Burris Jackes
fbjackes@hudsonwilliams.com
Here are your pedigrees, (thanks to RedbirdR33 and Steve)
IRT cars are 105.5" wide (R12,14,15,17,21,22,26,28,29,33,36)
BMT/IND cars are 120" wide (R1,4,6,7,9,10,11,16,27,30,32)
Minimum Headroom as follows
Cars with ogee roof design
R10: 80.625" at the corners, 96" at crown of ogee roof
R12, R14: 79.5" at the corners, 93" at crown of ogee roof
All other car types (turtle-back rooftops with flat ceilings inside the cars).
R11: 77.5"
R15: 83.1875"
R16, R27, R30, R32: 84.5"
R17,R21,R22,R26,R28,R29,R33,R36: 83.875"
Door Widths: R10 thru R32: 50" wide (4' 2") EXCEPT FOR R27, R30, R32
which are all 46" wide (3' 10")
All door heights are 74.625" high.
Assume that the R1 thru R9, which I don't have listed here, are 50" although I seem to think they were a little wider (I may be thinking of old BMT cars). If you use 50" you'll be OK.
Wayne
I seem to have read that the Triplex units had four-foot single doors. Not sure about the BMT standards.
The doors on the R-1/9s were probably narrower than those on the R-27s and R-32s. The windows were definitely smaller. I like the way the door windows on the R-32s, single R-33s, WF R-36s, and R-38s blend in with the side windows from an alignment standpoint. The original door windows on the slant R-40s, R-40Ms, and R-42s were like that, too.
The Standards' doors were probably in the neighborhood of 4 1/2 feet wide due to that (roughly) 5" wide post down the center. They had two panels which closed against the centerpost. The D-types have a single panel door with four square panes (complete with chicken wire), looks to be about the standard width, maybe a couple inches wider.
The R4-6-7-9 also used chicken wire in their storm door windows.
Was the chicken wire a safety feature?
Wayne
Yes, Wire Glass (that's the "official term") was devised so that if hit, the glass would not break into pieces, fly out and hit someone.
Believe it or not, it's still made!
Didn't the storm door windows on the R-10s also have embedded chicken wire? I seem to recall that they did, or at least most of them did.
I didn't know that glass was still being made!
That said, I would think that the window which Sylvester Stallone kicked out in Nighthawks probably didn't have chicken wire.
Yes, as a matter of fact, the R10 storm doors did have "wire glass" (chicken wire) in them.
Wayne
One thing to also keep in mind is that the only cars still in revenue service which were around in 1964 are the Redbirds on the IRT (R-26, R-28, R-29, R-33, and R-36). The R-32s started to arrive in August of '64 and entered revenue service later that fall. None of these cars look exactly the same as they did back then, although the Redbirds come mighty close.
Now I'm starting to feel old. I even remember watching the Beatles on the Ed Sullivan show in February of that year...
Steve: Don't feel too bad.Several years ago I was at an ERA meeting and Roger Arcara was showing movies of old fantrips. One of these was the D-Type Farewell to the Culver trip on March 23,1974. I was enjoying th efilm and vividly recalling the trip when I thought to myself,"Oh that was 20 years ago." Incidently this was also the actual last day that the D's ran in regular revenue service. When we arrived at 9 Av the R-types running on the shuttle was taken out of service
and the D-Types made three round trips carrying passengers and railfans alike.
Best Wishes,Larry,Redbird
In a sense, you could say the Triplex units came out of retirement for a day. The date is an interesting coincidence. March 23, 1974 would make it 8 years and 8 months since the "other" last day of Triplex revenue service, July 23, 1965.
BTW, was that Triplex train showing a numeral 5 on the front end?
Steve: Now that you say it I believe it was. George Iberi was the trainmaster on that trip and when he was around we went places that "no fantrip had ever gone before." We also covered the IND Culver Line express tracks,visted Court St before it was a museum,Bedford-Nostrand layup tracks on the Crosstown Line,both the east and west approaches to the Jamaica Yard and the yard itself,the lower level at 179 St and the lower level at 42 Street. Yes,they knew how to run fantrips in those days.
Best Wishes,Larry,Redbird
Wasn't the lower level at 42nd St. still in use by rush hour E trains in 1974? Aqueduct Specials were still around then, too, weren't they?
The middle track at Bedford-Nostrand is in plain view from either platform, so I'm not sure if that was much of a novelty. Or did that train continue past the station to where that track splits in two before ending?
Also, at Jamaica Yard, was there any mention of the former World's Fair spur?
Steve: The E did indeed use the lower level of 42 St in the sixties. I'm not sure when the E stopped using it and of course it was used by the S Aqueduct Special. At Bedford-Nostrand we covered both of the layup tracks. I belive that at the Jamaica Yard the two easternmost of the yard tracks were used by the World's Fair line but I'm not sure.
Regards,Redbird
The E express was a casualty of the city's 1975/76 budget crisis, as was the F express run in Brooklyn from Jay St. to Kings Highway, so the downstairs track was used at last through the Fall of 1975, when the fiscal crisis really hit home.
The other day I saw a light (no passengers) train of R62 type cars with two yellow work cars coupled to the rear.
Why would they use 10 cars to pull two
What you saw is likely a "Main Shop Drag" as it used to be known or a "Transfer". The revenue cars and compatible non-revenue cars were likely being transferred to or from the overhaul shop.
I rode over the bridge this afternoon, and it looked like new track has been laid across almost the entire span. There is just a little empty space left on the Brooklyn side. As late as this summer, there was nothing there. Are they going to try to reopen the bridge earlier than we've heard ie. this summer? If so, will they take the A&B tracks out of service early?
But the Canal Street Station underground is in a really bad condition, it will takes years for the MTA to get that fix. THAT PART DON'T EVEN HAVE TRACKS!!!!
Canal Broadway (as I call it) certainly looks terrible! It did appear though, that the trackbed was capable of supporting tracks (i.e. no real evidence of erosion). There is a major leak somewhere just above the station - this must be plugged first. The rest of it? Just level the wall surfaces, throw up the metal laths and cover it up with pre-fab tile (they will probably do the Chinatown motif like they did elsewhere in the complex). Then schmeer the ceiling with pool paint (or something like it) after giving it a good scrapedown, and you're all set. Figure about a year to 18 months of work for this.
Wayne
(Condition of Canal St Station). Why don't they just abandon the station and run trains express from Pacific/DeKalb up to 14th St? Those traveling to Lower Manhattan from DeKalb take the tunnel trains, which are now under-used, and those coming over the Williamsburg and heading uptown now transfer to the F, not the Broadway line.
In any event, don't be so sure that the patching of the bridge by DOT is being coordinated so well with the MTA, and with Canal St.
Work on Canal seems to still be halted. I know it was slowed down by the collapse of a building on the corner. They still have a big hole in the street, and they're slowly redoing the trackbeds. They put up a little section of new tile on the closed platform, but it's already soiled from leakage. Beats me what's going on.
You would think one of the local TV stations could go down there, especially during sweeps month, and do a feature on the "Station to Nowhere," Either that or have the Post or News do their own story on it, instead of waiting for a press release on the dirtiest trains in the system to come in to write something about the subway's problems.
The newspapers occasionally do. I have an article from several years ago titled "Train Dreck"
I was there on February 11, and while Canal Broadway does look horrible, I don't think it's beyond redemption. The section of green and yellow tile they put up can be pressure-washed and scrubbed clean with a stiff scouring brush. The first priority there, aside from restoring the roadbed and trackways, is to plug that leak! Everything else is strictly cosmetic, although it will no doubt prove costly and time-consuming to repair/restore. I have more commentary on this in a previous post. They also have to turn some attention to Chambers Street BMT station - THAT one needs emergency repair and SOON!
Wayne
Hi all. I have been designing my second Avenue Line for more than 11 monthts now. I need someone of they can and have the time to make a didital map of each line and one map off all of the lines. I will send the person a copy of the Station Stops and Road Plan in which roads the line will be under. Thank you for your time.
Christopher j Rivera
I'm looking for Number Plates from the subway cars that scrapped in the past. Where should i find the Number Plates??
Try the Transit Museum Gift Shop at the Museum.
I know they have a few of them.
Several cases of them (old R-46 numbers) were given to the transit museum.
Yeah, but those are plastic pieces of junk (and I didn't see my favorite, 444) I like the enamel/metal signs....I've got one at home, when I bought it, it was covered with rust streaks and bits of paint. Some tilex and a plastic scrubber sponge cleared it up, with no effect on the sign itself. I think I'll use it for my home address, if I ever live in a house where I can make up the address. (I don't remember the exact number, as I've stored it along with my 1974 and 1993 wall-size maps, but it's in the high 9000's)
-Hank
The ones we removed were baked enamal over steel. They were the numbers that MK installed after overhaul. I actually held onto #666 for a while. From the old R-46, I had stashed 1054 and 941 shortly after they were wrecked. Those original #s were fiberglass. As far as I know, 444 (SIRR) was never removed from the car.
Had to be, because all the SIR cars now have stainless steel number plates, with black numbers, with the exception of 400, which has stickers over the number plates.
-Hank
Those are probably the original number plates - R44's original plaques (as I call them) were stainless steel with narrow numerals (as opposed to the fat round ones they use today).
Wayne
I never saw those. SIR R44s had the fiberglas plates that most other R44 had before they were rebuilt.
-Hank
I have a question...if the molded front ends on the newer cars from R-40-R110 get damaged, how are they repaired or they're just replaced?
The fiberglas "bonnet" is a separate component from the rest of the car. Take the photo tour of the Coney Island Yard (from the "How It Works" section) and you will see #4811 with her new bonnet awaiting installation. It removes and replaces relatively easily compared to other carbody parts. I saw #4612 at 207th Street after his run-in with #3629, they had his entire end (cab back to first door) under repair, and his new bonnet was leaning against the Shop wall, next to the trackway door. After the Williamsburg Bridge crash of 1995, they reported broken and/or cracked bonnets on numerous cars in both trains (R40M 4489,4488,4536,4537; R42 4586,4587 etc.) due to the sudden impact. All the cars involved in that incident are back in service except for #4664 (totalled) and #4461 (under repair). The breakable bonnet makes itself useful by absorbing some of the "crush" in a collision (if it gives and breaks, the force is not as great to the stainless steel skin behind it), along with the anticlimber.
Wayne
Are these custom fabricated for the older ones or does the TA have a warehouse full of these?
Fiberglass bonnets are repaired the same way a fiberglass autobody or boat is repaired. For serious damage, the bonnet is replaced. The TA has some bonnets on hand and they are stacked up outside of the Coney Island Overhaul Shop. I'm sure that others are stored throughout the system.
Why don't the MTA build a New Transit Museum so they can put all the museum subway cars and buses in one place? I would like to see all the subway cars and buses in one big Museum and hope more people will visit Transit Museum in the future.
Why not? Because museums cost money, and taxpayers (and the day-to-day fare-paying public) don't want to spend money for something that doesn't bring a tangible return. I'm thankful that we have the museum where it is today, but I would also be the first to recognize that if it were in the best interest of the transit-riding public to re-activate and extend the line beyond Court Street (a new tunnel to Manhattan, for example) that would require the closing/moving of the Transit Museum then that is what should be done. Part of the value of the museum is in its location - while I think it's great that Branford and others have preserved NYC subway equipment, it looks rather out of context there. What better place to display subway equipment than in the subway?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Good point. I think an excellent alternative to the Court Street location would be to allocate some land on -- or adjacent to -- the Coney Island yard for a Transit Museum location. This would be ideal for three reasons: 1) assesibility by subway F train to Ave. X (or D to West 8th);(2) the other tourist attractions such as the CI rides and the New York Aquarium are in the general area and (3) the close proximity of the transit yard would make it possible for scheduled tours of the CI yard operations and easy interchanging of rolling stock from/to the Tranist Museum.
However, the salt air and weather there would not be good for the museum fleet. How about City Hall lower level on the N and R?
True. But what I had in mind is an INDOOR facility anyhow, since the museum would still house exhibits and a gift shop. This could be done by building a new structure or rehabilitating an old Coney Island area building (the area has many unused or underutilized warehouse-type buildings).
How about buying the parking lot across Boerum from the existing Transit Museum and building a bus garage, and leaving the trains where they are?
Sound good but how about subway cars?? There is more than 20 subway cars museum and some of them at coney island. Pretty Soon the R26/28/29/33/36 will be in transit Museum after they retires replace by R142.
I don't expect that any of those redbirds will be put in the museum. They've been altered too much. They've got an unrebuilt single R33 in there, and that's pretty representative of how the entire redbird fleet looked.
-Hank
Here's two ideas:
What about the feasibility of using the 700' or so of trackway (and a completely built subway station) at 74th and Broadway (Roosevelt Ave) in Jackson Heights, Queens? There's already a ramp leading from the Manhattan bound local track just before Roosevelt Ave (R) that would have connected to the never built line's Manhattan bound track. Some small amount of tunneling may be needed to be create an area long enough to back in a set of 2 R-44s for example, and track would need to be laid as well as a switch installed on the Queens Blvd Manhattan-bound local track, but everything else is there. The entrance to the station is outside the fare-paid zone.
Or here's another suggestion ... 9th Ave / 39th St, Brooklyn, lower level. 3 track, 2 center-island platform offering 50% more capacity that the current transit museum and it's underground (even though both approaches are not). It has direct access to the 39th St MOW yard and the Jackie Gleason bus depot (I think it's JG) and direct access to the West End Line for moves to and from Coney Island or other shops. In this case, heavy construction is not at all necessary - just a good clean and mop operation of the station below. The additional fare could be paid simply by installing another fare-paying area at the bottom of the stairs, and maybe the museum could reduce admission by the price of a token if you entered from the B train. The ends of the station could be enclosed with movable doors to "lock up at night". No additional pressure on using Coney Island for storage; in fact it may lighten the load somewhat. And the station doesn't interfere with road operations in any way.
--Mark
I wasn't aware of the possibility of track access to the Roosevelt Road station. Regardless, would either of these locations be able to offer the exhibit space for non-rolling stock exhibits?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Non-rolling stock exhibits? Well, part of the 39th St yard could be used for that in Brooklyn. At Roosevelt Ave, one of the trackways (Manhattan-bound) could potentially be used for that as well.
--Mark
Yes, those trackways do exist, but the real question is: do they merge with the trackways leading to the never-used terminal station? If they do, it would be fairly easy to install track; if not, fuhgedaboudit.
> do they merge with the trackways leading to the never-used terminal station?
That's the small amount of construction that would be needed. Not quite enough space to negotiate a pair of R-68s for example.
--Mark
I saw the Movie Money train and know most of it is just Hollywood Drama, but I understand there actually are real "money trains" in New York. How much of the revenue is collected by trains? What do they look like? Are they really guarded by a small military force?
One the same subject, I've heard mention of refuse collection details. Got any details on these. Do they compact the garbage? Seems like they'd fill up so fast it'd be easier to just haul it up to the street.
The revenue trains, from what I've seen of them, have just a pair of cops on them. They look NOTHING like that hideous object in the movie; generally, they are converted R15 or R17 cars. I don't know any more about them.
Refuse trains, on the other hand, run with 2 or 3 flatcars that have a sort of compartment system for small rolling dumpsters. They fill the dumpsters on the train, and take them.....I don't know. They're generally pulled by the 'freight' version of the R62, known as the R127 (EP001-EP010) or the R134 (EP011-EP018)
-Hank
The sides drop down to form a ramp. Empty dumpsters replace the full ones which are pushed onto the train and the sides raised.
That's the rub; I've never seen a dumpster in the subway, except on that train. Now, where the heck do they take them?
-Hank
Ever see the large, black, rectangular canisters on the platform with the swinging lids? Now you know what's inside. Also, many stations have trash rooms where the rolling dumpsters are stored until picked up.
They get taken back to Westchester Yard, 239th St Yard and Corona Yard on the IRT (and probably 207th St Yard, Coney Island Yard and 39th St Yard on the BMT/IND), where they are emptied into compactors and hauled away as commercial waste.
Okay you have the round little garbage cans on the platform and every station has a square type garbage can with like a triangle top that you can push the lid in to drop your garbage.
Cleaners at stations empty the small round garbage cans and place the bags in the larger ones that contain the small dumpsters. At night the garbage train of three flat cars and two R127's (Box Motors if you will) will come in to the station. They roll out the filled dumpsters and replace with the empty ones. The sides of the flat cars fall down and meet the platform (remember they have IRT (Div A) size cars, there is a gap between the platform and the work train on Div B. The sides make a nice ramp and cover the gap.
See the garbage train Sunday mornings at 4am Kings Highway on the express track, the crew is usualy down at Dunkin Dounuts as I'm waiting for the 4:15am North D.
Amtrak is trying to survive by boosting its freight service. Perhaps the TA could do the same -- if a direct link were ever built to the airports,. After all, you can't count on trucks getting to JFK in 60 minutes can you? (JFK is the number one air freight airport in the U.S.)
How large are air freight containers? Would they fit in a specially designed subway freight car? How much capacity is there on the Fulton St line -- lots and lots aside from rush hours. All you need is convenient places to remove the freight and put it onto delivery trucks. There may be a use for the lower level of 42nd St after all -- perhaps a freight level could be put into the Port Authority Bus Terminal in association with extending the #7. From there, the freight trains could reverse, switch to the 6th Avenue local and terminate at the old trolley terminal at Delancy, where trucks would carry freight to Lower Manhattan. On onto the 207th St yard for a truck ride over the University Heights bridge and onto the Major Degan north.
Of course you'd have to move containers twice -- once onto the train and another time onto a truck -- but it might be worth it to avoid the Van Wyck.
A standard air freight container won't fit on a standard flatcar in a way that insures the safety of the load (they need to be tilted). Not sure of the exact dimensions, but those things are huge. Maybe the type that UPS/Fed-Ex use might.
-Hank
Hello... I was wondering what are the oldest subway cars on the system? Are these old trains only use for Rush Hour Extras on the subway line?
Is it true that with some of the older trains that the lights in them blink on and off, and if this is true what models are they??
In live in Toronto and we had subway trains that whenever the lights come on then also come off too, they blink on and off.....
Please email me as soon as possible??
Thanks.......
I AM NOT RESPONDING TO QUESTIONS REGARDING BLINKING LIGHTS - But:
Since you asked a legitimate question regarding the oldest subway cars in current use, here it is -
The oldest cars are models R-26 and R-28, built in 1958 and 1959 by American Car and Foundry Company. They are in regular, daily revenue service on the Lexington Avenue #5 express. There are 110 R-26 and 100 R-28 cars. These cars are known as "Redbirds" because of their dark red exteriors. They have black paint on their bulkheads and their roofs are painted silver.
Wayne
The blinking of the interior lights is caused by the car you are on passing over a gap in the third rail, for a brief moment, that car has no power, and the lights either go out, or switch to emergency mode.
As far as I can tell, this only occurs on the "World's Fair" trains on the #7 Flsuhing line. A few of these cars have also been transferred to the #6 Lexington Avenue Local. Almost all other cars on the system seen to have some sort of mechnism, perhaps the lighting systems can draw poer from adjoining cars, that prevents the blinking you describe. I guess the thinking may have been that since the #7 is predominantly elevated, the blinking is only a problem at night, while other lines operate in darkness much more, and even old Redbird cars are apparently equipped not to blink when passing over third rail gaps.
well, even at night, that blinking is weird, I think.
similar blinking occurs on the Metro-North M-1 & M-3 cars, which are similar to the R-44 &46 subway cars..
OK:
Here is the low-down on why the lights blink off and on on some cars and not on others.
Starting in the late forties a type of flourescent tube was marketed which operates on DC in series strings just like the old strings of five incandescent lights in the R1-9 series cars. These were called DC discharge lamps, and they were developed specifically for transit applications. When you run over a third rail gap or when the power goes off - they go out. The voltage across the tube causes current to flow, just like the 0Z4 rectifier which was found in old car radios. A small transformer (ballast) provides the necessary kick to start the current at turn - on.
An interesting sidelight to this is that if the tubes are operated at the same polarity for a long period of time, they fail because the metal from one electrode is carried to the other end of the tube and deposited on the other electrode. To prevent this, there is a reversing relay which reverses the current flow. It usually operates off of the control circuit, so the lamps reverse whenever the motors do.
These tubes are expensive and probably out of production.
The other lights are ordinary flourescent tubes operating on AC from an inverter, which is powered by the low voltage (battery) circuit on the car. These lamps stay on when the car is gapped, since battery voltage is not affected. However there is a circuit which detects if the power is off for a long period, and reduces the lamp load in the event of a power failure or if the car stops on a gap (it happens).
The main-line Redbirds and B-Division cars up to the R-42 may have had the first type of lamp as original equipment, with most being retrofitted at rebuilding. The remaining stock may have been concentrated at Corona to use it up since those cars usually don't wander around the system and mix with other fleets.
The M-1 to M-4 series cars have the latter type circuit, but operate at much lower speeds in places like GCT, Penn, Jamaica and Flatbush where there are more gaps than there are third rails, thus you do see the lights go out.
Hopefully this will put an end to the "BLINKING LIGHTS" posts.
... and now you know the rest of the story!
Very interesting, Gerry - I'm not technically inclined (don't tell my boss) and I believe I understand.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
M-1 etc are in no way similar to R-44s or R-46s as to lighting. The M-1 uses a Motor-Alternator. As the name suggests, there is a DC motor, driven by 3rd rail voltage, which turns an alternator that produces (I believe) 480 VAC for lights and heat. The M-A is always in the even numbered car and produces AC for the even & odd pair. When the even car crosses a gap, the M-A stops turning thus the 480 VAC ceases to flow and the lights go out. When the car picks up the 3rd rail again, the lights come back on. On the R-44 or R-46, there is no motor alternator. The R44/46 use a 'static converter'. This device takes 3rd rail voltage and converts it to 37.5 volts DC. This keeps the batteries charged, ONLY . Battery voltage is then fed to a device called an inverter ballast. This device looks like a standard fluorescent light ballast except that it uses 37.5 volts input to produce approximately 400 Volts AC @ 1000 Hz. This is used to light 1 pair of fluorescent lamps in a car (so if you see one lamp out, assume it's a bulb and if you see 2 bulbs out, it's likely a ballast). Since the inverter ballast uses battery voltage, when the car crosses a gap, the battery voltage remains constant so the lights do not blink.
This arrangement is used on all NYCT cars except the R-33/36 WF cars.
I already posted a treatise on this matter the last time it
came up. See
brighton.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=23545.
Since then I've observed that the R33/36 mainline cars that
were rebuilt at 207 St also have inverters. Unlike the MK
cars, 207 St did not remove the battery lights in the center
of the fans and replace them with PA speakers (the speakers
remain under the seats). However, it does not appear the
battery lights are hooked up anymore.
So, that leaves the Corona cars as the last remaining blinkers.
No they are not. The oldest car "IN USE" as you stated is in fact OR 714 which is a revenue collection car, the only surviving R-21 able to take power on its own, still with its key operated main light momentary, running with a fleet of R-22 cars. The signal dolly runs R-22s. The R-23 misc flat cars are being shipped daily to the Naporano Motel where "Coaches go in but they don't come out".
Sorry - I thought he meant "passenger service". I am just not up on all of my work motors as I should be. Aren't there a few R14 and R15 work motors still floating around? I could have sworn I saw one out on the West End Line last September - it was surely an R15. It was numbered RD336. They'd be even older than the one you describe.
Wayne
Wayne: I don't know why that guy jumped at you I think I answered that question the same way.The RD prefix on an ex-passenger car means its a rider car and I believe that means its for the work crew to ride in and is pulled by a loco or another motor.
Best Wishes,Larry,Redbird
Among intersting things I did this weekend with my girlfriend, I had a chance to ride a few trains :\
First was an N train, which was all R40 Slants, apparently; not a R32 or R68 in sight! The train I rode had a conductor (female, if it matters) who announced at every other stop what your options for travel were if you wanted to go to Queens, 5th, or Lexington Av (6 at Canal or 14th, Shuttle at TS to GCT and then the 6; For R riders, the E at TS or the F at 34st; for Astoria 7 at TS) Excellent work, if I could have any way of telling anyone.
Going back to South Ferry, I got a 3 train of R62A, normally assigned to the 1. Apparently, the 2 was running normal express service, while the 3 was split between 148-South Ferry runs (local) and 148-New Lots runs (Express) I don't understand why they bothered changing the signs on the trains to number 3 from number 1. There were several confused people on the platforms who didn't seem to understand what was going on, and apparently didn't take the time to read the service notices (which didn't appear until Friday!) or the destination signs on the trains.
Friday Morning I took a side trip to CI on the N train (ok, I missed my stop....) and got to see the 'transsexual' R32, 3348. I guess they WANT it to be noticed as an oddball, as the number board on the left side (face the #2 end) of the #2 end was a piece of engraved plastic, and the right side (face the #1 end) of the #1 end was straight off an R38! There were several crews at work on signal boxes and the interlocking at Kings Highway. They have new signals in service from approximately Bay Pkwy to 59st, and new signals are installed but covered from Bay Pkwy south to 86st, on both tracks.
-Hank
Presidents Day is Saturday Service according to the TA. I took my 6yr old Nephew who wanted to "drive" the train. Sit up front and stair out of the front window, nose to the glass, hand on the door handle (Heck how doen't want to do that.
We got on the D at Kings Highway (the boring R68's), MOW was working on the track at Brighton Beach south express track but I couldn't see what they were doing.
At stillwell, for the N we had a train of 68's and one of 40Slants. Needless to say we got to the front of the 40's and had a nice ride to WTC. Friendly train operator who showed off his cab to my nephew (and me too >g<) before we Stillwell. We passed a MOW train laying cable (I assume for the new bi-directonal signal test). N was split service and even this job was an extra according to the train operator.
The B was running local 4th Ave and terminating at West 4th. N on the return to C.I. was going express on the B line. The D was making local stops on 6th Ave to West 34th (you also have to get bottom yellow at 34th or the D is going to Queens or 57th). An of there was NO R service period. Transfer to shuttle bus at 36th Street.
Our N conductor on the return would say "On This Platform, Transfer To NOTHING"
Fun Day
Just like the good old days on the D before the express tracks opened. That took me back to December of 1967... a Bronx-bound D train of gleaming R-32s glides into 34th St. on the local track. We board, the train leaves the station, and switches over to the "express" track before 42nd St. BTW, the original "42" plates are still visible on the curtain wall between the express tracks. If there wasn't enough time for me to take a joyride up CPW on a rip-roaring A train of R-10s, we would change to a downtown A at 59th. By the time the last car of that D train left the station, it was flying! Those R-32s loved to move, and they made it look easy.
So they transferred her/him to the "N" did they? She/He's a vagabond - I have seen that car on the "Q", the "E", the "R"...everywhere but the Pitkin gang. Even the numbers behind the cabs are different - one end are the standard stickers with the white stripes at the top edge, while on the other end are little square black stickers with squared numerals. A very strange one, that #3348.
BTW they should replace the handholds at one end with the R38 kind to really make it an "oddball".
Wayne
R-32 3348 can be thought of as the Dr. Renee Richards of the subway fleet. And just who, you may be asking, is Dr. Renee Richards? She started out in life as Dr. Richard Raskind, a Yalie, and played in the pro tennis circuit. I heard that the Yale band once formed a tennis racket at a halftime show in reference to Dr. Raskind/Richards.
Back about 16 years ago, my family went to United Housewrecking in Stamford, CT. It was a fantastic antique store with several buildings on the grounds, including an R 1-9 that served as their plumbing equipment storeroom. Has anyone else seen this car? Does anyone know if the place is still in business and whether the car remains on the lot?
1) In earlier posts, it was mentioned that PATH has to follow FRA regulations. Is it correct to assume that their cars meet FRA collision standards? The ends of the cars do seem to have strong girders around the doorways.
2) What was the intended purpose of the unused turn-off at the north end of the 9th Street station?
Thanks.
[What was the intended purpose of the unused turn-off at the north end of the 9th Street station?]
There was supposed to be a branch line running to Astor Place.
This goes directly to the person that designs the rosters of subway cars on this web......
Please post The NEW LOOK of the R44's and R46..
Example....
On The R46 page....I dont see the new yellow destination signs.
The Blue Stripes are GONE!!!!!!!
NEW PICTURES PLEASE.........
The current look of the R-46's are cheap and ugly. The way the r-46's looked when brand new was the most attractive subway car the TA even had.
> NEW PICTURES PLEASE.........
Please feel free to contribute.
I have a few; I'll spruce 'em up and send 'em down in a few days - I have to touch up the front-end sign on the "G" #6090 (it glared out) - and I have to remove some flashback on #5699's interior shots. I also have #5940 resting at 179th Street.
Next time I'm at Coney (March 15) I will target some of these cars.
Say, why did they take out the glass partitions (they left them in the R44s) by the doors? I keep forgetting they're gone and when I lean back without looking - Oopsie! 'Scuse Me! :-)
Wayne
That's ok, they removed them from the SIR R44s, but AFTER the overhaul. They left the frames and the moulding.
-Hank
I saw on the Brightion Line a small work train with what looked like two track workers standing on eather side of it. It also looked like a guy with a white helmut was in the cab. Somethig was going up and down into the ballast. Any ideas as to what this machine was doing??
It would help if with such requests for information, details like the car # were provided. Since you say "Somethig was going up and down into the ballast.", then I'd have to assume it was either a 'tamper' or 'ballast regulator'.
To our British friends:
I was looking up Web pages on the King's Cross fire, and among the pages my search engine spat out (and I do mean spat out, in the case of this foul page) was:
http://web.cs.city.ac.uk/homes/louise/old/fare-dodging.html
Obviously, this "Fare Dodger's Liberation Front" could be one person talking through their ^%$@%!$, [and the rest of their site advocates anarchism and class warfare, so we're obviously not talking about a group composed of barristers, civil servants, bankers, and stockbrokers who ride home on the Tube from the City every day.] But, as an honest fare-payer (in Chicago), this page so infuriated me that I wanted to know:
1) Is there some sort of systematic fare evasion going on at LU?
2) Is LU service as bad as this page alleges?
3) Is is true that the fare inspectors have no *real* power to collect the fare in the face of direct refusal to pay, as this page alleges?
Thank you.
John B. Bredin, Esq.
jbredin@planning.org
Are you an attorney looking for information professionally or are an rail fan?
Like I said, as a farepaying passenger, although of the Chicago commuter trains rather than London Transport. As a railfan, to answer your question. I have no legal interest in the issue of fare-jumping, since I don't work for the State's Attorney (prosecutor) or Public Defender, and most people who are busted for fare evasion don't hire a private attorney.
Are you an attorney looking for information professionally or are you a rail fan?
I checked out that page, and while I don't know much about the London Underground, the page seems a bit hard to believe. I just find it unimaginable that the fare inspectors wouldn't even have the right to demand identification let alone make arrests. That sort of illogical thing would be entirely understandable in New York, but surely not in London.
There have been problems with fare evasion in LT, but I don't think that this is any more serious than anywhere else. The commuter lines into London generally have no idea about revenue protection, it is very easy to travel for free in some areas in and around London.
I don't know whether inspectors have radios, radioing ahead if there is an unruly passenger for a policeman would be a good strategy. I am not sure what the exact legal position is, but LT is private property, and powers of citizens arrest might apply here.
When you have over 5 million people living together in London, there are bound to be a few nutters amongst them. However, the page appears to be on a university web server. Universities tend to be very twitchy about students using university owned computers to advocate law breaking, and so I sent an email to the webmaster there in order to ask if he/she knew what was going on. If anyone else wants to, the address of the webmaster is:
webmaster@soi.city.ac.uk
If I get no joy, then I will send emails higher up.
I finally got around to reading LAST Sunday's(2/7) Inquirer.
There was an interesting article inside the Sunday Review section with SEPTA spokesWOman(:) Stephan M. Rosenfeld.
In it, he responded to the 1/24 opinion article on what SEPTA riders think of the system(which contained the article with the gentleman comparing the RR system to Chicago's Metra).
He started off with " I commend the Inquirer for focusing on transit issues....However I believe the public's interest would have been better served if SEPTA was invited to participate to lend balance to the presentation."
He then goes on to say that SEPTA is looking to improve themselves(read:LOOKING), such as improving the R5-Doylestown, a problem line mentioned.
He did directly address the issue of the gentleman who proclaimed that there are SEPTA employees incapable of locating the commuter tunnel downtown.
Exactly, "However, publishing [the gentleman's] charge that there are employees who cannot locate the Center City tunnel is ridiculous. And his assertion that we "mug"(I'd remove the quotes) people into paying cash rather than with passes or tokens is equally absurd."
He also says that there are people who "ditch their cars: in favor of SEPTA.
And promptly returned to the road within a week.
As has been stated time and time again, people like us would stop badmouthing SEPTA and the public would actually start USING SEPTA WILLINGLY if they stopped all the talk and be "Serious about Change"(and your dollars) and do it!
It makes one wonder what it would take to get SEPTA to work.
A quick question,
Though there are several subway systems in the US with similar specs to the NYC subway(in this case, the B-Division), but on which subways can a NYC B-Division car run on?
I guess I can assume at least the cities that ran the SOAC's(Boston, Chicago, Cleveland and good ol' Philly's BSS).
SEPTA's Broad St. Subway was built at the same time as the 8th Ave., IND (BSS opened in 1928 from Olney Ave. to City Hall), so it followed IND dimensions almost exactly. Standard gauge, overrunning 3d rail, and stations with large upper mezzanines mimic the IND. Car clearance envelopes are similar. It's probably the only one a B division car could negotiate. PATCO is probably also compatible, considering that its predecessor cars were similar in size to the Broad Street fleet.
In Boston, the Red (Cambridge-Dorchester) line is closest to the NY B division dimensions.
The Market Street (SEPTA) and Blue and Orange Lines (T) are smaller than the NY B division (Market Frankford also has underrunning 3d rail, a rarity).
Chicago's entire system is the only one of the four pre-WW II US systems that has a totally compatible car fleet - but I don't see where the SOAC car could run there due to the sharp curves and close clearances on the el. Cleveland, from what I know, has more generous dimensions but uses overhead (catenary) power pickup.
In Chicago, the SOAC ran on the Skokie Swift. I think there's a picture of it on that line in the Soac Section. Also, you're right about the PATCO line; the Soac ran there too. Got pictures of that as well. In addition to the lines mentioned (NY, Boston, Chicago, and Philadelphia-SEPTA and PATCO), the Soac also ran in the Cleveland system.
As for compatible sizes, I suspect a NYC B-Division car could negotiate BART (with wide-gauge trucks), WMATA, and MARTA
-Dave
SOAC would not fit WMATA due to the undersize clearance diagram. An IRT car would not fit. WMATA's work engines have cut-down cabs so small that the engineer sits on the floor.
SOAC would fit in Baltimore or Miami, due to the generous BMT/IND clearances used in Baltimore and the lack of tunnels in Miami.
How about LA? Isn't that the same as Baltimore and Miami?
Why was Miami's system built nearly all elevated? Is it because of the topography?
[Why was Miami's system built nearly all elevated? Is it because of the topography?]
The water table is too high - tunnel flooding would be difficult to control.
What I really want to know is, could a B division car ride on the LIRR without alteration? Ie. are the 3rd rails at the same height, and is the power the same.
Larry, I believe that some of the early R-44 or R-46 cars were high-speed tested on the LIRR mainline. So in answer to your question, yes, B-division equipment would "mate" with LIRR specs. However, since the coupling is different, individual R types could not be paired with M-1 types. And obviously M-1 cars could not be in the subway system since current LIRR car lengths would not work with BMT-IND tunnel/station dimensions on curves.
When the R-32's were first delivered eight units(3356-7,3360-1,3350-1 and 3352-3) made a demonstration run on the New York Central from Mott Haven to Grand Central Terminal under their own power. I understand from a now deceased friend that this caused some damage to the traction motors as at that time the NYC used 660v and the TA used 600v. I believe that the R-44 and R-46 have a somewhat higher tolerance for voltage but I'm not familiar with the technical aspects so I'm not sure.
Regards, Larry, Redbird
I'm not sure myself regarding voltage problems. I do know that the M-1s run on 700 volts -- there may have been some kind of modification done to those R-44/46s for the high speed testing if that additional 100 volts was too much for their traction motors. Not being a "techie", I cannot confirm this myself.
I think the tihrd rail shoes were modified for this demo run.
--Mark
So 3350-3351 were in on that demo run. Very appropriate! I remember the date, not because I was there (not by a long shot!), but because that was my first day of school in second grade - September 9, 1964.
I think the answer to this is yes. The R-44 set its speed record of 83mph on LIRR trackage. (After which at least half of its motors were burnt out)
--Mark
In all likelyhood the motor failures occurred when the car started to coast. As Steve has mentioned before, the motors act as generators in coasting. The voltages generated at higher than normal speeds can fry the motor insulation. Most motors are rated at 1000 volts. Since dynamic braking/coasting normally generates about 900 volts, the extra speed can push that up to about 1300, well above the safety margin.
The "B" division cars could likely navigate the trackways of BART without a problem, our cars are not as tall as the NY's older B Division cars though, and the longest length car is 75 ft, with majority of cars being 70 ft.
HOWEVER - the traction power to BART is 1KV; NOT 600 volts, so that would have to be corrected; and our "normal" speed is usually about 72 MPH; with late catch up speed to 80; I notice the newer cars spec'd only for about 62 mph MAX there in MTA. We'll take your reliability though....BART is hot on new tech and Hi-Tech; always into R & D (we jokingly refer to it as Removal from service & Delays).
I've read about BART being put in the same boat as Vancouver's Skytrain as being "Not quite heavy rail, but not light rail either".
Is that true?
In practice it might be. BART could be considered a hybrid between a commuter rail line (in terms of station spacing and car design) and a heavy rail line, yet the crowds don't reach "crush loading" (I upresume, though I'm not from the west coast).
In practice, Vancouver (and Toronto's Scarborough LRT) are considered Intermediate Capacity Transit Systems (ICTS). Believe it or not, Disney's monorail falls into this category, too. BART falls into the heavy rail category.
--Mark
You are quite right there, Mark; so typical that we aren't considered "Light Rail", but although considered "Heavy Rail", we barely make that grade. We do however reach "Crush Loads" and sometimes beyond that! But not on all lines and ony during the rush hours, especially after a delay..or delays!
the flacks at Bay Area Rancid Transit would have you believe that they are like LIRR--suburban commuter trains. Some parts of the system are like that especially the newest branch to Dublin, however one need only watch at closely spaced stations in San Francisco to see the crowds stream up to street level to either walk or grab a local bus. As to crush loads--mostly not by New York standards. But worst of all BART pioneered TWO EVIL IDEAS--close down at midnight and charge by "distance".
Washington DC Metro does the same thing. However, sightseers and tourists can beat this by buying a $5.00 day pass, which is only good after 9:30AM. I haven't been to SF but have seen photos of BART - nice stations but the trains with their sloped noses are UGHLY (go figure - I'm a Slant R40 man myself) - give me a traditional look any day. Washington's Rohr and Breda cars have a nice feel to them.
I don't think there's anything wrong with a zoned fare, especially if the maximum fare doesn't get too outrageous (say, $3.00) and the minimum fare is a bargain. However, it wouldn't work here in NYC.
Wayne
The BART "C" cars have straight ends but they look weird to me because there's a window for the train operator's position only. No center window on the storm door or opposite side from the T/O.
--Mark
I distinctly remember one of the BART trains I rode on in 1981 reaching 72 mph in the Transbay tube, and 85 in Oakland. Even the R-10s, bless those cars, couldn't match that!
Path cars are built to IRT specifications. They have H2C couplers and a similar Electric portion.
Actually,PATH cars are slightly lower: 11'8" and a fraction vs. 12'2" for NYCT cars. H2C couplers were replaced by Ohio Brass during rebuilding (1986-7). Some H2C have survived however,used between the two cars of "married pair" K class cars,now in work service.
Thanks for the update, Fitz. Looks like I need to make a field trip very soon....
Hey guys there is always talk about the latest subway cars and buses. Also about fleet size etc . Does anybody have a list of all the various motorized support vehicles for NYC Transit? Such as tow trucks, service trucks and the like? Also where they are stored?
I just want to say thank you very much to the good people in Boston and London who responded to my questions.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
I notice that in recent months the news media (both newspapers and TV) are now calling locomotive engineers drivers. Back there in good old NY, are the motormen being called drivers too? I thought in order to drive something you had to be able to steer it. Can trains be steered now? If they can I must have missed something because I thought you had to go where the tracks go. This misuse of the word driver is driving me crazy. HELP!!!!
Sounds like the media has been infected by Britishism. In Merrie 'Ol England, the enginer/motorman is called a driver. The Conductor is the Guard, and where the driver works is the footplate. Rails are metals, ties are sleepers, switches are points, shops are works.
Only execption to the above is that the guy who collects the fare on a tram (streetcar) is the Conductor.
As Winston Churchill said "We are two peoples divided by a common language."
Go Fig
Forgot to include: Freight cars are wagons, towers are signal boxes, trucks are bogies.
I could go on, but my head hurts.
Oh, great - a golf term (not to mention a reference to Humphrey Bogart) used to describe a truck! (just kidding)
Windshields are called windscreens in Great Britain, and once an American and a Britisher got into an argument about that. The American said, "We invented the automobile", to which the Britisher replied, "Yes, but we invented the language".
As the NY system is aging now with monies being spent on refurbishing car and stations; I wonder if the traction power plants have also been upgraded. I seem to see indications that ridership is definately UP, which would indicate a need for more trains in service at a given time. I have read where in the past, the system was plagued with traction power voltages dropping to about 500 volts; which could certainly lead to problems with motors, and control circuits (flashovers, overloads, etc). A solution at that time was to SLOW down the trains so that the draw on the line would not be so acute due to the acceleration current request. Did the MTA/TA finally get with it and upgrade the substations to accomodate the increased demand?
I know that in perfect theory, a train in braking dynamics can feed the rail of a train in acceleration (propulsion) as long as they are on the same substation rail circuit (instead of dumping the excess into the grids); and in NYC this could indeed happen as headways and spacing are so tight..any info would be appreciated. Thanks
Over the past decade, NYCT upgraded all of their older rotary
converters to solid-state rectifier substations. I believe
the capacity is adequate to meet peak demands.
Dynamic braking as used on NYCT cars is not the same thing as
regenerative braking. Both techniques use the motors as generators.
In dynamic braking, the energy is dumped into the grid resistance,
which acts as the load and converts the electro-kinetic energy
to heat. With regen braking, the energy is fed back into the
contact rail where it can be "recycled" by other trains in the
section. The "New Tech" R110 prototype and the R142/143 trains
use regen, which was not feasible using the older electromechanical
motor control circuits.
Does the TA still have any mercury arc rectifier sus stations? I believe they used them at one point, I know the LIRR sure did (rumor has it many of their powerhouses are mercury contaminated, along with PCBs). For that matter, are there any MU cars still in service on Septa with ignitrons? I doubt it, though I believe at least a few PRR (and I think NH also) MUs had them (and septa holds onto stuff a LONG time). I know the E44, E33, EP5 had them too, though all of those are gone now (are there any EP5s preserved?)
I think the mercury arc rectifiers were used on the IND,
whereas the older lines used electromechanical converters.
I'm sure all of those have been upgraded, but I wouldn't
be surprised if some mercury substations are still in service.
I'll try to find out at the next ERA meeting.
How does the third rail work exactly? I was told that if you literally jump on it with both feet you won't be electrocuted, but the minute you set one foot on the ground, you will be blasted. I know this has something to do with grounding. Can someone explain the 3rd rail that NYC subways use?
Like virtually every other subway system in the world, all of NYC's 26 subway lines use overrunning third rail. This means that the collecting plate( or "shoe") which juts out from the car's truck( the set of wheels at the bottom) makes contact with the third rail at the top as opposed to the underside(as does SEPTA's Market-Frankford Line or MetroNorth).
Though I wouldn't try it, I suppose in order to complete the circuit, you'd have to be on the ground or touching a rail. With the subway, the circuit is completed by conducting the charge through the running rails.
In order to get electricuted, electricty has to flow through you. Normally the the electricty flows from the third rail (which is at +600 volts) through the train motors and back to the ground through the running rails.
If jump on top of the third rail you will be at 600v, but if you aren't touching anything that is grounded the electricty can't go anywhere. Now, if you step down with one foot BANG! the electricity can flow from the 3rd rail through you to the ground.
Of course this all depends on how well you are insulated and what you touch with what. Working with trolley cars I have had a few 600v jolts, usually confined to one hand or arm, as a result of insulation failure or carelessness. If someone overtightend one of the set screws on a K-controller drum segment, and you touch both the controller handle and the brake valve you get a belt, even though the controller body is "grounded". But step onto the third rail with wet feet and touch the platform edge...
Several things need be pointed out about electrocution. There are 2 critical factors, neither one is the voltage (as such).
Most critical, is the rate of current flow through the body. The amount of current needed to be fatal (or do serious damage) is really quite small. Of course there is a direct relationship between voltage and current but it also has to do witht he resistance of the body through which the current will pass. A wet body will conduct current far better than a dry one (for example).
The second critical factor is the path of the current. While you may get a good jolt in your arm, it would rarely be fatal. The two critical paths are those which take the current across the heart or the brain. For those of us who have seen others 'hit' by 600 volts, we know that some of the indicators of serious complications are an enlarged heart and 'dead' cells washed out of the body, in urine' for days or even weeks after the incident. My policy for anyone who works for me is, if you are hit by 600 volts, regardless of how well you think you feel, you WILL
go to the hospital to be checked. There are no exceptions to that rule.
I've had just one contact with 600V. On the 1923 (Boston) Blue Line cars 0512/0513 at Seashore, there is a small knife switch for the control circuit mounted on a wall in the operator's compartment, about six feet off the floor. Some years ago, I was getting the cars ready for our "Terror Train" Halloween event. I knew well where the switch was; and also that there was a wooden handle over the metal. I had thick leather gloves on (a requirement). However, it was nightime, raining, and my gloves were wet. (Yes, it was a dark and stormy night.) I reached up and grabbed where the wooden handle should have been; unfortunately it wasn't there - it had broken off and was on the floor. ZAP. It was my fault for not looking closely and/or shining a flashlight on the handle... I learned my lesson, and now include in my instructing that if you can't see it, you shouldn't touch it.
Does the thought of 600 volts ever cross your mind when operating Gibbs 3352? It's like, one false move and, yeeowww! Is there anything different about running it versus the IND cars, other than the number of notches on the controllers?
It turns out that the Gibbs car is "safer" to run than many of our older trolleys. The Gibbs car, in my opinion, is rather robust in construction. Sure, there's 600V a few inches under your hand.
But that's true on nearly all of our standard trolleys/streetcars too. And with more "opportunities" to get zapped. For example, all you have to do on Montreal Open Car #2 is reach up over your head, and touch the trolley pole to get zapped. And most of our streecars have breaker boxes overhead or nearby the operator with 600v sizzling through. We teach our operators to move the breaker handle with the punch of a fist, as opposed to grabbing with a closed hand. That way, if there is a leak, your're not caught with your hand "frozen" around the handle.
We have a beautiful open car, The City of Manchester (NH), built in 1898. It has a 600v controller (and hand brakes only!) on each open end. Once I witnessed one of our operators take a jolt when a stream of rain water cascaded down the front, across an open, but "hot" light socket, and onto him; he had one hand on the controller and the other braced on the metal latticework of the car.
Back to the Gibbs car... the controller's dead man is a large, round button on top of the controller, which must be held in the down position by your palm. It is very tough and tiring to hold down... though I attribute that to age - and suspect that in its operating years on the IRT was not that bad. The controller is a manual series/parallel type, and moved slowly from the 3 o'clock position (off) to the 6 o'clock position (full series) to the 9 o'clock position (full parallel). It has some kind of cable device that keeps the tension on the handle, so it does not move as freely as other interurbans or streecars whose handles move freely between notches.
The car (as is true with our other rapid transit cars), by the way, is outfitted with trolley poles, and the 3rd rail shoes are disconnected so that a false step does not result in a zap!
Todd, Steve B et alia: The controller handle used on the Hi-Vs,
such as Shore Line's 3362 and Seashore's 3352, is the so-called
"clockwork" handle. I'm pretty sure we've been down this road
on Subtalk before. Briefly: it's just like a "K" controller:
manual acceleration, except:
Rather than directly controlling grid resistance and series/multiple
motor wiring, you are energizing trainlines which activate relays
under the cars to make these connections ("power-operated control")
There is a torsion spring between the (insulated) controller handle
you are cranking and the internal drum. A solenoid with a winding
in series with the main motor circuit engages a pawl. When the
current is high, the pawl engages the star wheel and prevents the
drum from turning. When the current is low, the pawl drops away
and the drum may turn. So, you can, in theory, wrap the controller
handle all the way around to full multiple. The torsion spring
will be tensioned and will try to rotate the drum clockwise.
Since the car was sitting in coast, there is no motor current.
The drum advances to the first notch. The line switch picks up.
Motor current flows. Since the motors start from rest, there is no
counter-EMF, and a current flows I=600/(R1+2*Rmotor), where I is
the motor current, R1 is the resistance of the grids in the first
point, and Rmotor is the resistance of the armature and field windings
per motor. I don't have the numbers handy, but I think on
a Hi-V this starting current is about 300 amps.
Since the starting current is higher than the notching current (the
point at which the limit solenoid drops away), the solenoid engages.
The drum is prevented from advancing past the first point. The
car starts to move. As it gains speed, a counter-EMF is developed.
The motor current diminishes as I=(600-E)/(R1+2*Rmotor), where E
is the counter-EMF. Counter-EMF builds up with speed according
to a complex non-linear formula. As the car gains speed and
counter-EMF builds, it opposes the third-rail voltage and the
resulting motor current decreases. Soon (maybe 3 MPH), current
reaches a low enough value that the solenoid drops away.
The drum, under the tension of the torsion spring, is allowed to
advance to the next notch. As soon as this happens, substitute
R2, the resistance of the grids in the second notch, for R1.
R2 is a bit lower, so the current instantly surges back above
the notching point. The solenoid engages again, holding the
drum in second point.
In this way, the current limit solenoid accomplishes "automatic
acceleration", allowing the drum to notch up point by point and
preventing the motorman from advancing too quickly.
There are some problems with this particular approach.
Because the limit relay senses the motor current on the car
from which the motorman is operating, if the motors are cut out
on that car, the solenoid always "sees" 0 current and the
automatic acceleration fails: the drum wraps up too quickly, till,
ker-KLAP, all of the line breakers on the train drop out.
In fact, a 1923 IRT rule book had specific instructions about
how to handle "automatic feed" that didn't perform well.
Why G.E. implemented it this way (with Type M control) is a big
mystery. Maybe Dan Lawrence or Gerry O'Regan have an idea?
Incidentally, the automatic acceleration feature was added to Type
M around 1904. The first generation Type M was pure manual
acceleration. Examples of this controller can be found in Shore
Line's collection in cars 824, G and S-62. The Mineola has
automatic acceleration Type M with 12 points.
So, Todd, that's why the controller handle feels "squishy".
As for the deadman's "button", it's supposed to be that heavy.
I guess IRT motorman had strong hands. The deadman on that
system is electric: releasing the button does two things.
1) It disengages the handle from the torsion spring, allowing
a return spring to bring the drum counter-clockwise back
to the "OFF" position.
2) It energizes a wire with 600 volts DC. This wire is connected
to a magnet valve over the motorman's head which vents the brake
pipe and causes an emergency application. It is also connected to
the trainline "E" wire (schedule AMRE braking) which energizes
the emergency magnet valves on all of the (type RE) Triple Valves
on the train. If you don't like this, there are two ways around
it: A) you can remove the 600 volt feed and kill the electric
emergency feature. B) you can turn a valve (which in days of
old was protected with a seal) and cut out the dump magnet valve.
As for safety of the 600V controller on a metal car, I asked this
once before and got no responses: Does anyone know of a documented
case of electrocution on a HI-V car from this? I don't think it
ever happened. To get zapped, two things would have to happen:
The insulation fails inside the controller AND the grounding wire
that grounds the metal controller frame to the carbody breaks.
Jeff,
Thanks for the excellent explanation.
I will print out a copy, laminate it, and put it in 3352 so that visitors to the car can learn about its operation.
For the time being, 3352 is stored in one of our car barns. We have to do some serious fund raising to get it enough shop time to be back in operating condition.
The manual accelleration part of this is pretty much the same equipment that our CA&E car from the 1920s is equipped with. The major change required to use automatic accelleration in multiple unit was whether to use a air powered rotating drum (Sprague...South Side Elevated, Boston) taking the place of the master controller in each car or to use a string-along system where one contactor closing connected the limit relay circuit to the next contactor (Westinghouse Unit Switch and later Type M). The latter is a very interesting circuit to follow and was in use as late as the R-9 cars in 1940. The IRT apparently didn't like the Sprague equipment, so they went with the semi-manual type M. By the time the fully automatic Type M was available, the IRT probably didn't have the resources to do a retrofit. (Having same they would have gone Lo-V)
Do you have an example of "fully automatic Type M"? I.e.
the accelerating relay is under the car rather than in the
master controller circuit?
The history of M-U controls is pretty twisted. Sprague's 1897
patent shows essentially a K controller (although it may technically
have been an "L" with open transition), with fully automatic
acceleration, all-electric and operated from battery voltage.
He partnered with GE (Schenectady, NY) to develop and market this
system. Westinghouse also licensed the patents from GE (1898?)
and marketed a similar system, of course, this being Westinghouse,
it used an air-powered drum, but was otherwise identical.
Sprague-GE control was purchased by the Chicago South Side Elevated
Co. in 1897. I am not sure if an example survives today. Sprague-
WH control was preferred by the BRT. Branford has two cars with
slightly different versions of this control (659 and 999).
I suspect, although this is the subject of research, that the use
of the K-style drum, in which the drum itself conducts the main
circuit current and contacts are made up against spring copper
contacts, would have been prone to frequent contact failure
because of the inherent slowness of opening them. That is probably
why both GE and WH, within 5 years of these early MU deployments,
essentially abandoned the entire Sprague design (except for the
MU concept itself) and went with unit-switch designs. WH introduced
the "Turret" switchgroup in 1903 and quickly realized that was
a maintenance headache, and followed up with the almost identical
inline Schedule 251 group a few years later.
The good thing about the unit-switch design is that instead of
copper-to-copper sliding contacts, each contact closure is accomplished with a heavy power-operated switch. The contacts
break vertically and quickly, and make up with a butting and rolling
motion that keeps them self-cleaning.
GE was perhaps reacting to problems with low-voltage battery circuits
in controlling long trains -- a few ohms of contact resistance here
and there adds up -- in introducing a high-voltage product in Type M.
Type M, as you noted, is also a unit-switch design.
The problem with a pure unit-switch design is the bewildering
sequence of interlocks. In order to pick up, say, switch 10
in the sequence, the wire for that coil has to run through interlocks
that prove switches 1-9 have picked up, and also possibly through
interlocks in some of the higher-numbered switches to make sure
they haven't hung up in the engaged position. There are some
combinations of switch closures that result in a DEAD SHORT from
trolley to ground. Clearly, those have to be interlocked carefully.
Then you get into holding circuits to make sure the previously
engaged switches stay engaged, transition logic to go from full series
to the first point of parallel...well, you understand.
I think both companies eventually understood this and moved to
hybrid designs. GE introduced PC control in which a pneumatic
piston (GE uses air!) advances an insulated drum. The drum has
a series of cams. Lined up with each cam is switch unit which
is mechanically operated by the cam. So you get the benefits of
unit-switch contact ruggedness along with guaranteed sequencing
of the contacts. WH experimented with using a rotating cam with
conventional copper fingers which in turn activated electropneumatic
unit switches. After the war, both companies developed new cam-
oriented controls.
I have a fairly simple Type M diagram with automatic accelleration from a Boston Type 2 streetcar. Send me an address by e-mail and I will mail a copy to you. Most contactors have four interlocks and all are connected in series/parallel with the control resistors. I will also include the manual version used on the Type 3 cars.
That deadman's button has been discussed before. I'm sure it was on the stiff side all along. Maybe it just needs a little TLC. How about the controllers on the IND cars? Does it take a whole lot of effort to hold the controller handles down?
I learned about that heavy coil spring incorporated into the controllers on the Gibbs cars from Jim Tebbetts a few months back.
I read in Gene Sansone's book that the prewar IRT cars were similar to gondolas in terms of their construction, whereas the BMT standards were like steel boxes. In any event, there was concern about electrocution when the idea of an all-steel subway car was first brought up. There was also the notion that rescue workers with axes could make their way into a wooden car more easily than a steel car. Of course, steel cars proved to be much safer, as the Malbone St. wreck proved.
Hopefully, 3352 can be restored in time for its hundredth birthday.
The deadman controllers on our R4/R7A cars 800/1440 are not too stiff nor tough to hold down. However I've never done it for an eight-hour shift in the subway! I'm sure one of our current (or former) train operators can comment on that for us.
Standing next to the cab on a corner-cab car sometimes you encounter an operator who at each station stop takes full service and releases the deadman (you can hear the small pfft! sound when it's released, as compared to the PFFFFSSSSSSSSSSSTTTTTTTTTSSSSSSS! when dumped into emergency). I guess some operators have higher tollerance than others... or maybe it's at the end of a shift that they tend to do that?
Seashore's Third Avenue Railway System (TARS) 631 has the neatest deadman I've ever run. It's a foot-operated, self-lapping brake pedal, which operates reverse from what you're used to. Push it to the floor, and the brake is released. Slowly lift your foot, and the brake actuates; first dynamic, then air. Take your foot off the pedal (deadman feature) and you come to a stop, and fast! The controller is standard series-parallel, and hand-operated, so it takes a bit of getting used to using one hand and one foot. I've found that the best way is to sit turned slightly to the right and use your left foot on the brake pedal; I'm told that was done in NYC so that the operator could face incoming passengers and tend the farebox. The foot pedal, by the way, has a "creeper" feature so that you can leave the controller in the first point; the line switch cuts in and out as you move your foot the first inch or so up/down from the floor. That must have been a great benefit for TARS cars creeping through NYC traffic.
That also sounds like the opposite of a clutch pedal.
Other than the moaning and groaning of the bull and pinion gears, the sound I remember more than anything else on the R-1/9s was the "tcchhhh-ssssss" as the brakes were applied. No other cars gave off such a sound, at least not the BMT standards (they went "tcchhhhhh"; I don't know about the Hi-Vs or Lo-Vs).
Air brakes with manual lapping will have a different sound than those with self-lapping... and of course if there are no dynamics then there is much more air to make noise! I'll see if this summer I can record some R4/R7A air brake noises and put a .wav on the site.
My favorite sound from the R1-9 class was the air release when the doors closed. As I recall from our colleagues here at SubTalk, it's the auto-leveler. I think it went something like ppppssssshhhhhooooooooooooo!.
I seem to recall a short "tsch" right after the doors closed and locked on the R-1/9s. Nothing prolonged. Of course, the air compressors would be throbbing away underneath each car in the meantime.
That sound (which I really miss) came from a little valve under the transverse seat and actually was more a "psch" than a "tsch". And who can forget the "glglglglglglg" sound those cars made as they accelerated; plus the low "llllllllll" sound of the paddle fans (the GE fans with the pointy noses in the Pullman Standard R-6-1s kind of went "ggggggggg", that is, when they actually worked).
Wayne
Next time I'm at Shore Line, hopefully 1689 will be out and about, and I can listen to the doors as they close. It was either a "psch" or "tsch", but in any event, it was short. I remember hearing its fans back in 1980; they made a "wadawada" sound at about C# below middle C. I also remember boarding an F train of R-1/9s at 34th St. or Rockefeller Center on August 9, 1967, and seeing the fans whirling away. We were trying to get to the Bronx Zoo before they put in that transfer from Lexington Ave. to 51st St. That was my first experience on the IRT, and man, did that 5 train move!
I always thought the sound emitted by the R-1/9s as they started to move was more of a grunt than anything else, until the familiar moaning and groaning began. Then there was that E train at 42nd St. When it started to move, it sounded as if a flock of sea gulls had descended upon the station; I wanted to head for cover.
Loved those air sounds...
I used to love the sound of the Philly Broad St. Subway (the old cars)
-Brr - eee - ah - bah , cluck . Also the old soon to be retired M-3 Marrket cars had a "wooohp" when they started. I also love the sound of the Neoplan busses as they pull away in first gear (can't
really describe it.)
Chuck Greene
We need to hire Michael Winslow, the sound effects guru of Police Academy fame, and have him record some subway sounds. I'll bet he'd do a great job!
I also get a kick out of the R-44s and R-46s when they begin to move: whoooo-o-o-oooo; the pitch increases progressively. It's not very loud, but it's there.
Hey Steve, I never thought of it, but Michael Winslow would be perfect for the sound job. He would fool everyone with his sounds.
Should we hire him and take him out for a full FULL DAY or NYC subway riding?
He should take a railfan trip on the Lo-Vs or Tripex units to get the door, brake, and motor sounds down pat. Then we could turn him loose.
That noise is the variable load mechanism. When the side doors
on the car are open, a magnet valve which is, on the R1-9,
under a transverse seat, admits air pressure to a piston
under the car. This releases a lock and allows an adjusting lever
to deflect according to car loading. One end of the lever is
attached to the variable load valve, which is bolted to the car
body, the other end rests on the truck bolster. As the car
load weight increases, the bolster springs compress and the distance
between the car body and the truck shrinks. The adjusting arm
thus measures loading. The arm is only allowed to move with the
doors open, the theory being that only then is the car stopped.
You wouldn't want to sense load with the car bouncing up and down
along the road. When the doors close, the magnet valve vents
the piston to atmosphere. That's the "pfhhhh" sound you hear.
You also heard that on all the SMEE cars and can still hear it
today on the WF redbirds (some of which are on the mainline
right now). The adjusting arm is locked in position until the
next station stop.
The position of the adjusting arm is used to regulate brake cylinder
pressure and acceleration rate.
On the SMEE cars, the load sensor gave (gives, on the R-36s) off a short beep pitched at F# above the treble staff. I don't recall ever hearing that sound on the R-40s or R-42s even when they were new.
Did BMT cars have such a variable load mechanism? I'm curious because the BMT standards never made any air sounds when their doors closed.
Also remember that on the R1-9, Standards and Hi-Lo Vs the actual brake release took place under the car while the brake valve fed air into the system. On SMEE cars the brakes release at the brake valve and under the car simultaneously. Similarly on the older cars you released air at the brake valve to apply the brakes.
I think you're referrring to the air brake sound of kee-KAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH! No?
At any rate, if you _do_ get to record the brake sound, it'd be nice to get it in a .wav file format...
Just to let you know, the D-types and SIRT cars had the same braking noises as the R-9s. Interesting, but when the TA was short cars in the 1950s, it purchased the SIRT cars thinking they would MU with the Standards. Lo and behold, their brakes were not compatible, since they were the same as the R-9s and D-types!
Knowing the BMT-IND well, but not the IRT, I would have to rate the old pre-war cars as the R-9s being the loudest during acceleration, then the ABs, finally the D-types. Don't know about the SIRT cars since they were gone by the time I was 5 years old.
As for identifying the location of the 2 ABs on the 2 track el, my bet and I'm pretty certain, is it is at the southbound culver pulling into the W.8st. station. I spent many a time at my grandparents apartment in Brightwater towers, adjacent to that station, so I think I should know it.
Anyone have any Q-car R-9s, and do they have a tendency to warp and bow like my did before I sold them years ago, I wish I them now!
MIke H
On MARTA the deadman does not dump the brake pipe. In fact, the deadman feature is recoverable without applying emergency brakes. It is a full service deadman and does not occur until 5 seconds after the deadman feature is actived. During that 5 seconds, a sonalert alarm sounds. Get a load of this, most operators use the deadman feature to stop a train in the platform.
As long as 2nd Avenue is just, and always will be, a fantasy, Why not a high speed express that runs along side the local and shoots from Whitehall Street to Staten Island at 80+ miles per hour. I Imagine 3 lines on 2nd Ave just like the 1,2 and 3 lines on Broadway/7th Ave. As they go their separate ways in the Bronx, Brooklyn and Staten, they could become high speed expresses. In Staten Island the High Speed could run along the same route as a newly built local line. I understand that the Washington Subway approaches speeds of 80 MPH. This Super Train would transform Staten Island into a real Borough and help the New York housing/real estate situation.
While we're on the subject of Fantasy, how about a high speed line that runs from Riverdale to Staten Island via the same tunnel. It could run along the old New York Central Route, with stops in Washington Hights, 125, 72nd (connection to the 1,2,3) 59th 42nd, 34th, 23rd, 14th, 4th, Canal, Batery Park City, and on to Richmond at 80+ MPH.
Hey, if you know some politicians who can tap into $3 billion, I am currently working on a monorail project which would bring rail to many parts of the city that need it. I can promise speeds of up to 70 miles per hour. Also, the manufacturer quotes an average speed of 54 miles per hour between stations spaced a mile apart. Just post their department and I'll take it from there.
I have my own Second Avenue Subway Line plan. One line goes from 125 Street to Tottenville and my expresses only have 3 stops. All of the express go from 125 to 42 no stops if you want more info send me and e-mail.
Christopher j Rivera
The 2nd Ave. line was designed for 70 mph speeds, and the R-44s and R-46s were more than capable of achieving this when they were new.
You don't seem to understand that Staten Island doesn't WANT to be a real boro. Although I personally wouldn't mind a line from here to Riverdale. Any heavy rail passenger connection from Staten Island to the rest of the subway system will either have to cost a quarter, or not exist. Staten Island is the BIRTHPLACE of NIMBY.
-Hank
The notion that Staten Island is autonomous vanished with Fresh Kills. Unless you're suggesting that Richmond wants 13,000 tons of trash each and every day out of the kindness of their hearts. As to the quarter, I was going to suggest raising the fare on the Staten Island Ferry to $1.50 to help pay for the high speed tunnel (with a free subway transfer).
I can't remember if people in Richmond complained when they built that
bridge over to Brooklyn.
They did complain about 'that bridge'. Some of the old timers out here still do. Staten Island is vehemently anti-progress. For every voice asking for improved transit service, there are 5 who scream louder for the status quo, and 2 who scream for more highways. But no one wants to have to pay for any of it. so, like I said, unless construction costs for this tunnel were extremely low, it'll never happen. It has to be 'an offer that can't be refused.'
-Hank
We have our share of lets-keep-the-status-quo people in Colorado, too.
Q: What's the new nickname for Colorado?
A: The just-say-no state!
It has gotten better. At least there is progress in Denver.
Historian Daniel Boorstein explained the importance of the West this way. When special interests got control in Europe, entreprenuers could come to the U.S. and do things a new and better way. When special interests got control and blocked progress in the established areas of the East, entreprenuers could go West and do things a new and better way. The progress eventually returned to the East.
If progress is stopped in the West, I guess that's it.
There's always Alaska
A speed restriction appears to be in effect in both directions for trains between Oakwood Heights and New Dorp. The SIR tracks south of Tysens Lane have heavy timbers along them. This section is only about 30 years old. Are there structural problems developing already?
Depends on what timbers you're talking about. To my knowledge, there are no problems on the line, and the only speed resrtriction is between Great Kills and Eltingville, where they're working on the new crossover and signal. New Dorp Station has a damaged starway that is being supported with some timbers, and some retaining walls are being built in some areas out of timbers to prevent erosion and channel drainage.
-Hank
The timbers are alongside the tracks from Clarence Place to approximately Tysens Lane. I thought they were put in to keep water from running off the embankement onto South Railroad Avenue, which was cusing icing problems in winter. The speed restriction seems more in effect for Tottenville-bound trains, even the expresses slow down.
Trains are running uphill in this area, so this may be the cause as well. I haven't noticed any speed change in the AM (I travel reverse peak)
-Hank
I am searching for a supplier of 3" x 6" New York subway tile, for a home renovation project. I need to match existing tile in a historic old house. I have been told that the type of tile I am looking for is called "New York Subway tile" because alot of it is found in the subways. It is the same tile that is seen in the bathroom of the set for the Jerry Seinfeld show. Can anyone advise me where I might find a supplier of this type of tile? Where does the New York subway system obtain tile for repairs? Any help will be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
Most of the actual tile found on the subway walls is the standard 4 1/4" stuff. There are some stations that have 5x10" rectangular tile, but 3x6" is not the everyday tile that is used. If 3x6" does exist, it had to have been put up in the 60s.
I had to go to an antique/artifact store on W24th St in NYC for the porcelain tile I needed for a little patch job (6x5") which I haven't done yet. 5 tiles cost me $64 but they were actual period pieces.
You might want to write the Materials Department at the NYCTA, 370 Jay Street, Brooklyn NY 11201 for further information.
Wayne
Do you realize that if everyone on this website brought in their piece or pieces of equiptment that we could probably build our own subway car from scratch.
Redbird
I have a leather strap from #1619C (Q-type) that I can contribute...
I got it on October 3, 1969.
Wayne
I have two metal route signs from the Lo-V's,"Lexington Av Local" and "East 180 St.'
Larry,Redbird
[Do you realize that if everyone on this website brought in their piece or pieces of equiptment that we could probably build our own subway car from scratch.
Redbird]
Heck, if we all grabbed shovels we could build the Second Avenue subway faster than the MTA ever will!
How's this for an interesting topic:
LIRR service directly into Wall Street (a major destination for LI commuters)
Concept: From Jamacia Terminal an IRT train (modified with padded seating) operates along the Flatbush Ave. branch. between Jamacia and the Wall St. stop on the 2/3 line during morning and evening rush hours only.
How to implement: the expense would be minimal since the major changes would be at two locations -- (1) the reconfiguration of Atlantic Terminal in Brooklyn where one LIRR track would feed into the 2/3 line. This is not an insurmountable task, since decades ago (actually the 1920s) there was indeed a connection between the LIRR and IRT at this very location for August Belmont's personal subway car, "The Mineola". The subway token booths and LIRR waiting area would have to be moved/shifted (perhaps above -- a planned complex above Atlantic Terminal is already in the works).
Second phase: Jamacia Terminal -- one platform would have to be modified with a movable platform edge (like 14th Street Lex. Ave.) where the IRT car would receive/disperse passengers.
Route: Usual Flatbush Ave. till Atlantic Ave. Station. Here the IRT train would be switched over to the 2/3 line and not make any stops again till Wall Street, thereby eliminating the problem of LIRR fare-collection.
For a small additional monthly charge -- a discounted subway fare -- LIRR riders to Wall Street could save time and transfer hassles with this 'LIRR Subway Service'.
Any thoughts?
Doug
Two things. First, find a way to shoot this service directly to Wall Street at a decent speed. Second, get the Long Island Rail Road to work with New York City Transit on anything besides a crisis. Implementing a plan is the easy part. Getting two branches of the same organization to work together is much more difficult.
While there is a place for a connection Manhattan Bound, a crossover would have to be built Queensbound -- with other subways underneath. Moreover, the IRT in Brooklyn doesn't have room for more trains.
A better plan would be to dig under from Atlantic Terminal to the Montigue St tunnel. Trains from Jamaica would merge in past the DeKalb, Lawrence, Boro Hall bottleneck. Trains branch out in a grade separated junction on the other side. The Jamaica trains could terminate at Chambers St.
I believe I read in the NY Times, researching the M-1 a bit, that origionally, the LIRR *was* going to implement such a thing with the current electrics (along with 100 mph speeds, new lines, ATO...) The idea was to run them into Penn, then turn them south down the IND express tracks. I don't think the M-1s can fit in tthose tunnels though, and it was, like the GCT connection, and everything else the M-1s were going to deliver (see above), mostly a pipe dream...
Operation of NYCT passenger trains over LIRR trackage or
vice versa is a technical nightmare. Yes, it was done in the
1920s. A lot has changed since then.
85' long LIRR passenger cars are never going to fit into any
subway tunnel and there's nothing you can do about that.
You could fit NYCT cars onto the LIRR, no problem. There is
currently no rolling stock that would actually function once
on those tracks, however. For starters, you need cab signals
and automatic speed control. You also have to deal with the
higher trolley voltage (750 nominal on the LIRR vs 625 nominal
on NYCT). Those are electrical problems and it wouldn't be
hard to modify the new tech trains to deal with them.
Then, of course, there are the political problems. The NYCTS
currently enjoys an exemption from FRA regs. Connect up to
the LIRR and run joint passenger service and see what happens.
Mechanically, you have to figure out how to handle the approx
14" difference in platform heights. "A" division equipment would
come up a little narrow too. I don't see any easy solutions.
Did you know that in Atlanta and Miami, your job as conductor is almost irrelevant. MARTA and METRODADE subway trains run without conductors in the booth- master controlled not from train operator (or whatever they are called in those cities). I have never seen anything like this before. At least at the MTA in New York, folks can be called real conductors since they actually operate the trains. Just my thoughts on this...
I might actually disagree with you just slightly. I spent nine years living in Atlanta(and rode the first train that came south from Lenox Square Station). I would be inclined to say the T/O's(or whatever you want to call them) act more like conductors than operators. Yes, the trains are master-controlled, but the doors have to be manually opened and closed at every station(at least that was the case the last time I was there). The operator/conductor does work out of the front cab, and will have to "switch to manual" on occasion to run the train, but I think he/she serves more as a conductor than an operator.
I don't know about Miami's system.
MARTA (Atlanta) does have a train operator who makes announcements and controls the doors, but the trains normally operate in that automatic mode (Is it called ATC???). WMATA (Washington DC) also operate like MARTA.
Atlanta's Hartfield International airport (ATL) has a totally automated train that connects all of the concourses. Cincinnati-Northern Kentucky Int'l airport (CVG) also has a similar train.
Wayne
The subway trains at Denver International Airport are fully automated, down to the announcements. They've had problems recently with broken collector wheels. Chances are the problem may be misaligned track at some point. Now they're starting to talk about maybe, just maybe, putting in emergency walkways to link each concourse.
Duh!!!
Our light rail line is true OPTO. The operator runs the train and operates the doors and, with the flick of a switch, changes the destination signs at the end of the line. The announcements are recorded. There are pushbuttons at each door set on the outside of each car. If the doors in front of you don't open, simply push the button once it lights up, and the doors will open. There are also "Stop Requested" buttons by the doors on the inside, but they're really not necessary since all trains make all stops at all times.
Denver, Atlanta and Pittsburgh airport use the same Westinghouse people mover system. I have ridden all three I they do have bench walls or walkways. Westinghouse Transportation Group is now called ADtranz.
Would that be the same group formerly known as "Westinghouse-Amrail" or "ANF" or "Jeumont-Schneider", those responsible for the brontosaurii of the current system, namely the R68?
Wayne
Wayne, you've come up with the best analogy of the R-68 yet - brontosaurus. That's even better than a hippopotamus!
CORRECTED
Denver, Atlanta and Pittsburgh airport use the same Westinghouse people mover system. I have ridden all three and they do have bench walls or walkways. Westinghouse Transportation Group is now called ADtranz. At one time it was AEG Westinghouse.
Denver's subway tunnels have catwalks and emergency exits, but they're on the opposite side of where the center island station platforms are. They are used to evacuate trains in the event of a breakdown, but they don't want people wandering on the catwalks otherwise if the trains aren't running.
I still support DIA, but IMHO it was a gross oversight to omit separate backup walkways between concourses.
MARTA is automatic, however the first train of the day is run manually. Also, the train operator has to be there if the computer kicks off line so they can run manually.(Yes, I have ridden MARTA-every station. Peggy informs me that a future station-by-station is planned for MARTA.)
The Central Control computer on MARTA does not control the system. The Train Control room at each station and some intermediate points control the movements of trains. There are dispatch pushbuttons at the terminals for the train operator to align routes and some intermediate route pushbuttons at divergent junctions. However, all routing is automatic from the train control room by track occupancy or ID control via the Train to Wayside Communication (TWC) system on the car. A TWC message consists of train serial number (3 digits), destination code (2 digits), train length, zero speed and train stopped information. The signal is 9800Hz and is a FSK format transmited to the running rails by a 4 foot PVC loop under the front of the car. The Wee-Z or Mini Impedance bonds on the track are tuned to 9800Hz along with the track and cab signals and the TWC signal is transmitted to the train control room for routing purposes and train tracking at Central Control.
We still use relays to an electronic audio frequency track circuits however, on the North Line we have Non-Vital microprocessors for routing, TWC and communcations to Central Control. We have a total of 238 cars and at least 56 of them have GRS's MicroCabmatic microprocessor based ATC system on-board. The rest are relay and electronics based.
We are now working on a two station extension on the North Line to Sandy Springs and North Springs station.
I happen to be the expert on MARTA. In fact I design the train control system specifications and circuits, testing and other neat thinks for MARTA. When I leave work tonight, I take the MARTA from North Avenue station to Chamblee.
So with this in mind, I will tell you the operating modes on MARTA:
MCS-Manual Cab Signal-Train is operated by train operator with cab signaling and overspeed protection.
AUTO-Automatic mode-A Proceed or ATO Start pushbutton is depressed to start the train and the door operations is manual by the train operator. If a train stops because of a leading train in front, 0 speed commands, then the Proceed or ATO Start is depressed to start acceleration.
YARD-Yard mode-Train can operated to 10 mph maximum with the manual controller in the full power position.
ROAD-Road mode-Train can operated to 25 mph maximum with the manual controller in the full power position.
WASH-Wash mode-Train can be operated at 5 mph for operating through wash racks. Wash mode is used for uncoupling.
There is no reverser on MARTA. A reverse jog pushbutton is used to backup a few feet for uncoupling only.
MARTA is similar to WMATA. Doors can operated completely automatically, automatic open and manual close and full manual. WMATA has a manual mode with cab signaling with stop and proceed to 15 mph.
I'd barely call Cincinnati-Northern Kentucky Int'l (CVG) airport's system a train. I lived in Cincinnati at the time the terminal expansion took place and I remember the media heralding the announcement of a "Horizontal Elevator" (supposedly one of two in the whole world) that would run between terminals. That really is what the system is. It is made (I believe, if I remember correctly) by Otis Elevator. The system consists of two unconnected tunnels on the opposite side of a long underground walkway. In each tunnel is a permanently coupled set of two "cars" that ride on a concrete guideway. The system is "propelled" by means of a cable that runs the length of the tunnel attached to a winch. So in that sense it is an "elevator." As mentioned before, the system is completely automatic. There are LED signs in each car and a automated announcement telling what the next stop is. There is also apparently some door sensing mechanism that will hold up the train if someone is in the door when it is closing.
If I board another jammed-packed E train leaving 50th Street/8th Avenue subway station, I'm gonna hit someone. Why can't I ever board a freakin' train that's "reasonably" utilized at my stop!!!!! Why must ****I**** be the one who can never board the darn 4:47pm train or the 4:53pm train or the 4:59pm train???? Instead, I let nice little old ladies board those trains (if they could fit in) and I wait patiently 20 or 30 minutes for a chance to get on a train back to Queens. Why don't they increase service on the E-train? This must be the most utilized subway line in the entire system. Everyone must load up at World Trade Center, or 34th Street or wherever, and no one could fit on any E trains from points north of 42nd Street. Why is this?
Sincerely,
Pissed Off Subway Rider!!!!
They could run 18 E trains and 12 F trains, instead of 18 F trains and 12 E trains. After all, they only have 12 F trains servicing Brooklyn -- the rest run one way only, to Coney Island in the AM and from Coney Island in the PM. Perhaps when they open 63rd St & they have a second Queens train on 6th Ave they'll make that switch.
They need more F trains servicing Brooklyn, and they need to clean the trains too.
First of all, lets stop all the mis-information. AM service requirements call for 22 E trains and 50 F trains (roughly the same frequency of service). PM service requirements call for 22 E Trains and 46 F trains. When the Williamsburg bridge closes, E service will be increased by 4 trains while F service will decrease by 4 trains.
(Minformation) Just reading the schedule on the MTA site, and the Hub Bound report (which has a total of 30 going through the 53rd St Tunnel at peak. The schedule has Fs every 3-4 minutes and Es every 5 minutes in Queens, which I figured was 18 and 12. Of course, a new schedule hasn't been posted lately. What does 22 Es and 50 Fs mean? 17 Fs per hour for three hours and 7 Es? Is that a service cut from 1996 (if so no wonder the trains are packed)?
E Service is comprised of 22 trains. If you are looking at hourly service, you have it all wrong. 12 tains on the E line would give you 1 train every 15 - 16 minutes.
Service in the Queens Corridor is comprised or
E = 22 trains = 220 R-32s
F = 50 trains = 400 R-46s
G = 12 trains = 72 R-46s
R = 27 trains = 192 R-46s + 30 R-32s
Of course cars out of service may change the R and the E as far as car consists are concerned BUT every AM there are 111 trains in service in the Queens Corridor. The number is reduced by 4 F trains on the PM.
Remmber that the E train only goes to WTC while the F train goes on a long local jaunt to Coney Island. Everyone knows that the 53rd St. Tunnel is the busiest entry to Manhattan on the system. The problem is that with the mix of Es and Fs you can't squeeze in many more trains and even if you added more E trains you would mess up the C service on 8th Av., which is already far less frequent than the E. Maybe longer trains are needed with end cars running with the communicating doors as the only access (like the old days on the IRT). [Steve: Can you squeeze 22 more pairs of R-32s into Jamaica Yard (and maintain them)?] :)
Lastly, when the new 63rd St. service starts one of the existing lines has to go local in Queens...
I figure all the F trains will go via 63st. Not many people board at Lexington or Fifth ave to go down 6th at the rush, and for riders from queens, you've already got the E train making those stops, so it makes sense to me....
-Hank
Got a shoe horn? Jamaica yard is utilized well beyond it's planned capacity. Of the 60 trains that are put out every AM from the Jamaica end, 22 come out of the yard, 13 are layed up behind Parsons Archer (6) and 179th St. (7). The balance are layed up on D3, D-4, D-5 and D-7 tracks. Once the 63rd St connector is opened, 14 additional trains will need to be layed up at the Queens end. Jamaica yard is supposed to get an additional 25 tracks. Will we get them ?????????
Let's hope so.
(Jamaica Yard a shoehorn)
Comparing the BMT (and the old Els) with the IND, I have developed a theory about public vs. private entities.
For a private entity, capital is scarce (ie. its their money), so they make the most of it, investing in the least amount of ROW/rolling stock needed to provide a service, using it intensively, and maintaining it well. For example, the BMT wanted to build an El instead of the Center St loop, and put trains on bridges instead of in tunnels. The latter decision, which saved money in the short run, is hurting us today. On the other hand, the IRT and BMT seemed to run more trains on a track, and maintain equipment with less yard space, that the TA manages to do, by being more efficient.
In contrast, the IND was overbuilt -- it was a waste at the time, but we sure need it now as the Manhattan Bridge rusts away and the Chambers St station collapses. They thought ahead too much -- if only we had the money for all those unused provisions, the third track on the Concourse, the express tracts from Continental to 179th, etc. we could build part of the 2nd Avenue Subway. To a politician, capital is "free" -- you either borrow and make the next administration pay it back, or get federal money -- while maintenance and operations are expensive.
After having had its capital cut off for 40 years, and faced with oppposition to any new investments, the TA is acting like the BMT, only making improvements when forced, and trying to maximize the existing system. My guess is the Jamaica Yard will be asked to make do.
[In contrast, the IND was overbuilt -- it was a waste at the time, but we sure need it now as the Manhattan Bridge rusts away and the Chambers St station collapses. They thought ahead too much -- if only we had the money for all those unused provisions, the third track on the Concourse, the express tracts from Continental to 179th, etc. we could build part of the 2nd Avenue Subway.]
One might say that the IND was the victim of wretched timing. The Great Depression was in full force when the first lines opened, which probably reduced ridership. No sooner does the economy start to improve then World War Two erupts. I'd imagine that while the war may have boosted ridership, it choked off expansion plans (e.g. the Second System). Then once the war is over, there was the rise of the suburbs and private car ownership.
I'd take that one step further: the 2nd Ave. line, if anything, was victimized by wretched timing, almost as if it just wasn't meant to be. One thing is for sure: it's needed now.
[I'd take that one step further: the 2nd Ave. line, if anything, was victimized by wretched timing, almost as if it just wasn't meant to be. One thing is for sure: it's needed now.]
You're right about that. After decades of talk, construction began in the early to middle 1970s just when the city's fiscal crisis hit. Federal construction funds ended up being diverted to covering day-to-day operations (the infamous "Beame Shuffle") and only a few small tunnel segments were dug. Had the work begun a few years earlier or later, the line probably would have been completed.
(2nd Avenue timing). You need to bear in mind that when the MTA was formed, there was a plan for city and suburban improvements. With the exception the East Side Access, the LIRR got its improvements, but the city did not. The city gave up the TBTA surpluses when it surrendered it, and the TA, to the MTA. If the TA and the TBTA was still part of NYC, the 2nd Avenue might have been built in the late 1980s.
Well until Rockefeller cobbled together the MTA, Robert Moses fought like hell to keep his beloved TBTA completely seperate from the NYCTA. He wanted Triborough bridge and other highway tolls only to be used for roads and bridges, and even detested the vehcular tunnels and considered them nothing more than "tiled bathrooms" which is probably how he felt about the IRT, BMT and IND. So while the LIRR and Metro North may have come out better in the MTA merger, the subways weren't getting anything out of Moses' operation under the old system.
(Subways weren't getting anything out of the TBTA before the MTA). That's true. On the other hand, money is fungible. Perhaps the city should have given the TBTA control of the other bridges and highways -- and the cost of maintaining them -- instead. It could have used the money saved on the highways for the subways instead.
Bottom line -- Lindsay wanted to dump the TA deficit in someone else's lap in the short run, and wasn't too worried about the subways or the fiscal equity of the deal down the line. Typical stupid sellout by a typical NYC politican.
When Mike Quill took Lindsey to the cleaners in the 1966 transit strike, it opened the cookie jar for every city employee, and led to the really stupid accounting practices of the early 70s (need more cash for fiscal 1973? Add the revenues from the first three business days of 1974 to the budget!) and the evenutal bankruptcy in 75.
Lindsey giving up the TA to Rocky in 68 was something that probably would have happened anyway eight years later because of the city's deficit spending. The only positive thing is the subways could have avoided six years of William Ronan's management, when deferred maintenance and grafitti became the rule on the system.
There was an editorial which appeared once in one of the New York papers which consisted of two words: "Ronan stinks". 'Nuff said.
[(2nd Avenue timing). You need to bear in mind that when the MTA was formed, there was a plan for city and suburban improvements. With the exception the East Side Access, the LIRR got its improvements, but the city did not.]
Saying that the LIRR has gotten its improvements is quite an exaggeration. In fact, there have been precious few capital improvements in the MTA era. New line construction? There hasn't been any in decades. A number of stations have been renovated, but most of them still have grossly inadequate parking. The Ronkonkoma line was electrified east of Hicksville in the middle 1980s, but I for one consider that to have been a huge mistake. New electric coaches arrived in the 1970s, that much is true, but they would have been required in any event. By now many of them are in pretty sorry shape. And the Eisenhower-era diesel coaches and locomotives are just now being replaced, at an absurdly slow rate. There might have been some less-visible improvements, such as upgraded signalling, though it's worth noting that running times have improved little if at all in the past several decades.
Didn't the MTA raise and electrify the Babylon (can't spell it) line? Or did that pre-date the MTA?
[Didn't the MTA raise and electrify the Babylon (can't spell it) line? Or did that pre-date the MTA?]
I think it's pre-MTA.
You spelled it right ... however, I don't know the answer to your question - sorry!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Actually, you may want to take a ride on my train sometime. The Flushing Line is the absolute worst. In fact, I read somewhere (NY Post, I believe) that the most heavily used subway line is the Flushing Line.
Francine
Let's face it. Since the Metrocard service on almost every line has taken a drastic nose dive. (Not that It was so great before)It's time to think of radical action to deal with the bozos at the TA who are letting the system rot so they can lower property values and then swallow the land up for themselves!
Go ahead. Blame the TA. Why don't you put the blame at the doorstep of the politicians of the past who did not appropriate money to provide a meaningful expansion of the system. Many lines are at overcapacity. Fare discounts have increased ridership, but where does the TA put these people? The TA is dealt the cards and must work with what they have.
30 years ago cranky old Queens residents fought against subway extensions, and won. After all, they reasoned, poor minorities took the subway, and new lines would allow those people come to "decent" white middle income neighborhoods. One of Geraldine Ferraro's first issues was fighting the proposed subway from the 63rd St tunnel through southwest Queens. So the city's liberal constituencies used the money for pumping up the hosptial/social service industry instead.
Now all those people are dead and moved away. And Queens residents are stuck with the result, just as Brooklyn residents are stuck with the rusting/cracking Manhattan Bridge and Manhattan residents are stuck with a long walk to a packed Lex Line. Not a happy story.
The fact of the matter is that through-put on the E & F line at the hour you travel is maxed out. That means that there is no room for any more trains on the E or F line at the time you travel. I can offer you two potential solutions to your dilemma. First, try heading south and pick up the E train around W4th St. You may not get a seat but you may find a comfortable corner. Second, most companies are offering flexible work hours. Perhaps leaving a half hour earlier or later would make your commute easier.
I'm quite sure it's no consolation to you but there are LIRR trains where the conductor can't get through to collect the fares. The fact is that as unemployment drops, more people are going to commute. The metrocard has also boosted ridership beyond expectations. Short of a fare increase, I see no no immediate solution to the problem and I see no indication that the situation will improve any time soon. One other piece of advice - Don't get pissed off over something that you are helping to cause.
First of all, I have been riding the subway in this town for 33 years and all those "other people" can just take a number!!!
Second, much of the delays are cause by the TA's incompitence like inaudible announcements, or (especially at West 4th Street) No announcments which might instill passengers to use other trains or even walk; lord knows it's faster than the F train. Lack of information wastes time. People are constantly getting on trains only to find that they have gone Express and then having to get off again. Crowds due to lack of announcements and options slow the on/off process for riders.
There is also the matter that the TA refuses to clean the F train creating hazzardous on/off scenarious which also slow down service.
The TA also fails at even spacing of trains, which would spread the crowds out. Every single day of the week at rush hour you wait 15 minutes for a Brooklyn Bound F train and then 3 or 4 packed trains come one after another. The first two being too packed to even board. The doormen of the F have a new policy of verbally abusing riders for being slow for boarding or deboarding trains that are beyond crowded. As I said above, I have been riding for 33 years. I don't expect the TA to provide adequate service but now they have added a new policy of a snooty attitude, like it's my fault!!! The trains have gotten worse and the official TA policy seems to be TOUGH!!!
Just remember, when you have to wait 15 minutes for a train during rush hour (which I find hard to believe) it was PROBABLY caused by some rider who thought his getting on the train at any cost was more important than the everyone else's desire to go somewhere. Once the train falls behind schedule all it can do is become later still. This particular behavior reaches new high on the 6 during rush hrs, when you can see the headlights of the next train, but have to wait because someone got an umbrella tip in the door and thinks this means the entire body attached to it should be allowed on.
As for the verbal abuse, trying to get passengers on and off the trains quickly just doesn't cut it. If you want verbal abuse, ask my boss, Nat Ford, if you can spend an 8 hr shift in the Conductor's cab with me. That will show you what verbal abuse really is!
So what are you suggesting? That the TA arrest passengers who don't step lively? Tickets? How would that speed things up. Clearly you share the TA ambition of operating a passengerless system. That would sure make things easier on transit workers, and after all, isn't that the purpose of mass tranist in the first place?
No, Chris, I don't advocate a passengerless system. (although now that you mention it...)
Honestly, there are a number of things I would like to see.
1- Customers who know where they want to go. Standing at Times Sq and asking what stop is closest to 1175 Amsterdam Ave. doesn't do any good, because I don't know . Tell me you want to go to 119 & Amsterdam and I can help you.
2- When you arrive at a station that the train doesn't normally go to, or when the train bypasses your station, don't come yelling about NO ANNOUNCEMENTS while wearing your walkman turned up so loud I can't hear you.
3- Don't hold the doors. Amazingly enough, there is always another train, especially during rush hours. And if you really find it necessary to hold them, don't do it with coffee cups (messy) or BABY'S HEADS.
4- If you do miss the train, accept it nicely. Don't curse, or spit, or throw things at me.
Two of those will almost guarantee that my train will go out of service and if we haven't moved very far, I'll do it right there to really inconvenience you. And if I'm really lucky, there'll be a cop handy ( I bet you didn't know we can file assault charges).
5- Remember that ALL the doors stop at every station* If everyone tries to board and exit at the same doorway, the train will never move. Therefore, if possible, move to another door.
If the door you pick, has 20 people coming out and the door behind you has 4, go use the other door.
6- When possible, get on the train when the doors open or at least look like you want to get on. If you're strolling down an empty platform while the doors are open, I think you're not trying for this train and shut the doors. Then it's too late to get on.
7- If you don't hear any announcements at all, tell me what car you were in, so I can write it up and have it fixed
Now, to clear up some things. First off, I AM an IRT Conductor. The opinions expressed above are purely my own and are not official in any way. All of the oddball examples are true and have actually happened to me. These, of course, just barely brush the surface of stupid things people do, but the full list would probably cause David to have a cow. My apologies to the other operating personnel - I don't normally rant like this but every now and then it feels so good.
Chris, the offer still stands - any time you would like to ride with me, let me know. Til then, keep in mind that when I close doors, I'm only doing my job. BTW, if everything was supposed to be convenient for me, I wouldn't have to go the Bronx at ungodly hours of the day, work standing up in a 3' x 3' closet, eat lunch in tiny rat-infested rooms and all the customers would be polite.
*There are two exceptions to this - South Ferry on the 1/9 and 145th St/Lenox on the 3.
Alex, I believe that I am already in compliance with all the things you would like to see on the subway. Here are a few things that I would like to see.
More and better announcements.
Improved PA system that does not destroy the ear drums of all riders. Now that you have suggested it I do plan to inform the conductor of broken PA's as well as those deafanining door chimes. One problem is, however, I usually ride in the last car (as that's where my exit is) and will have to run to the next car at each station to reach you. It is my contention that if the TA would allow for access between cars and buy more equipment that allows for such transfer it would help ease some of the trouble at the doors.
Another thing that would help would be for more stations to have multiple exits, this would help spread riders out among the cars. In many cases the exits and entrances at far ends of platforms already exist but the TA insists on keeping them locked up half of the time. Or uses them as Exit only. If the TA only allows one entrance/exit at a station, they have no right to complain about less people using the doors at the far end of the train. If the train is sitting there with the doors open, and I'm coming through the turnstyle, I'm not going to run to the end of the train to get on.
Also, if the West 4th Station would announce that the F is not running, or the next F is going express, then I might explore any of the other options available at West 4th or any of the other transfer stations. In Madrid each station has a clock that counts down when the next train will arrive. This gives passengers the ability to weigh their options and procede accordingly within the parameters of the systme. On the F train, it seems, the last thing the TA wants to do is include the passengers, Nay, the CUSTOMERS, in insight into how to best use the system.
The end doors are locked on the 75' cars for your safety. As they swing around curves the ends become seriously unaligned, creating gaps big enough for people to fall through - not something we want to happen. To solve the problem, you end up with shorter cars.
The entrances that are locked or used part-time mostly became this way from lack of use. At my old station - Ave N on the F train - the Ave M entrance saw about 5-10 people for every 100 that used the one on Ave N. No-brainer business decision: close down the under-utilized entrance and save some money.
As for the announcements, the only thing I can tell you is WRITE or CALL the TA and complain - loudly and often. Get your friends to do it, too. Get car numbers, times and locations and sound like you know what you're talking about. While I can't speak for every Conductor, I know that I make all the required announcements and quite a lot of other informational ones and still have people tell me I didn't say anything about my local running express - and they're sitting right behind me in a car where the PA works!
The count-down timers you want are theoretically in the works. Look for them to start appearing around 2005ish
Thank you Alex you are on the ball. Still my train is crammed and I don't like it. Perhpse I must accept that as a given of living in New York. Like public schools that don't teach reading and writing, and libraries with short hours and cruddy bathrooms. I suppose this is why people move out of town.
here here, as a passenger I have seen all the above mentioned incidences, plus many more of course.
All it takes is at least one non public-spirited passenger to throw the schedule out.
I have commuted in subways(metros) in other international cities and nothing compares to NYC. Of course that is not to say there're any good passengers in NYC in which some of them can be found here.
Cheers,
I suggest pushing people trying to force their way into a crammed car back out onto the platform.
-Hank
First, there are 40+ cleaners assigned to the F line. Run that by me again how not cleaning the trains causes the delays.
Second, trains leave the terminal evenly spaced. It's what customers do en route that cause them to end up n bunches.
I like your idea about the announcements though. How about this one.
"Attention ladies and gentlemen. There are heavy crowds on the E line. It's a nice night tonight. Why don't you consider walking back to Queens?"
Pehaps when the trains are really crowded (inbound), the conductor could suggest asking one's boss to change one's work hours. As a matter of fact, my boss just did change his work hours since his commute includes the two overcrowded lines E/F in Queens and 4/5 in Manhattan. De-peaking really is the only affordable way out in the long run. There is plenty of room on existing trains, or to add trains, off peak. According to the Hub Bound survey, there are fewer people traveling at the height of rush hour, one reason the trains are NOT as crowded as in 1987, at the peak of the prior boom.
P.S. if the same share of NYC adults were working as in the U.S. as a whole, there would be approximately 550,000 more people working in the city. That's right, 550,000. Even though we are back at the 1987 to 1989 employment peak, we have a long way to go.
Well, it seems that at least at many firms (Wall St. firms in particular) that the only acceptable de-peaking is "come in early and leave late". So, it tends not to work very well....
(Come in early and leave late). Well, it is true there is this thing in New York that you are supposed to hang around forever and not leave before your boss, whether its productive or not. So people adapt by not coming in until 9:30 or 10:00. This is one of the things that makes NYC different -- in DC they are in by 8:00 and out by 4:00, and if they need to work more they come in earlier. The data shows that de-peaking is much more advanced in the PM than in the AM for that reason.
Personally, I see no reason to work 80 hours a week while my children are young with a goal of retiring early when they are gone. More realistically, those my age should not expect to retire at all.
[Well, it seems that at least at many firms (Wall St. firms in particular) that the only acceptable de-peaking is "come in early and leave late". So, it tends not to work very well....]
Many employers seem to allow a "flex-time" alternative. For example, at my company most employees can start any time between 8 and 10 in the morning, therefore leaving between 4 and 6 in the afternoon. Whether these choices are enough to make a real difference in terms of peak vs. off-peak demand remains to be seen.
I have a suggestion. Since the G line is low in ridership, why not when the 63rd street tunnel opens have the G line revamped and enter Manhattan on a 6th Ave loop. You see alot of people crowd at Hoyt sreet to transfer to the A and C line and many transfer at Court Square and Queens Plaza for midtown and upper Manhattan. By havinga loop, you decrease this bottleneck and many people will stay on the G linew or even switch to the G line since it is less crowded and ease the "sardine" conditions on the E and F lines. I know this involves some major track reconfiguration, but it will pay off on the long run. There are plans to develop the the waterfront in Greenpoint and many have already moved there from Manhattan and with this new development many will be living here and near by neighborhoods and ridership into Manhattan will inrease especially on the E and F lines. What do you all think?
Not Again.
-Hank
It's much more than track changes - the tunnels just don't connect!
This has been discussed several times before. At Hoyt-Schermerhorn, all that's needed are a set of switches, which may be easier said than done. The tricky part would be tying the G to whichever tunnel they decided to use.
Come to think of it people you should also include F and 7 trains as being too crammed too. All Queens borough trains suck because you really can't get a seat on any of these trains. Stop the madnes and put more trains in service. The MTA must be jerks!
The No. 7 line has more trains they can handle. The No. 7 trains are packed but theres alway a train ahead and behind you especally in the AM rush. Beside When the new dispachors pick starts your going to have Ms. Bush working at Main St and shes too busy takeing crews out of service and messing up the Railroad. I'm glad she was forced to leave Van Courtlandt Term actally she was forced to leave Main St by the same SUPT.
[Come to think of it people you should also include F and 7 trains as being too crammed too. All Queens borough trains suck because you really can't get a seat on any of these trains.]
You know, it's finally dawned on me that this whole "crammed trains" thread has missed an important point - crammed trains are GOOD. Crowding shows that ridership is strong even though it may be a bit uncomfortable. And attracting more riders is what counts.
Thank ypi Peter, finally a proponent of the subway
There is plenty of room off peak. If you can, why not work on your home PC for a couple of hours and board the subway after 9:30?
As I have said, aside from the problems everybody knows about -- in Queens (which will be fixed by the 63rd St tunnel) along the East Side (which would be fixed by the 2nd Avenue Subway) the subways are not crowded at rush hour. No subways are crowded off peak, and there is plenty of room to add off peak service if they get crowded.
[As I have said, aside from the problems everybody knows about -- in Queens (which will be fixed by the 63rd St tunnel) along the East Side (which would be fixed by the 2nd Avenue Subway) the subways are not crowded at rush hour.]
I don't know if you meant to include it with Queens, but quite clearly the 7 is crowded at rush hour.
I ride the 7 train at all kinds of hours and say that this line is even crowded during the evening on outbound trips. Don't be fooled by others in this group. The Flushing Line has a big problem with too much ridership. NYCtransit should accomodate this but of course they use every excuse in the book. Enough already. I don't ride the IND lines so I have no idea how crammed they really are but I guess with dramatic increases in ridership since the introduction of metrocard, buses and subways on most lines are quite "crammed".
There's no such thing as 'too much' ridership. The Flushing line just can't handle any more trains. As it is, even during some off-peak periods, there's a train every 2 minutes. When you're at a station, and can see the next 3 stations in each direction, and a train in each of them, and trains between them, the only improvement that could be made is a conveyer belt.
-Hank
Uncrammed trains at rush hour would actually be a sign that the TA is wasting money on too many subway cars.
If you calculate the number of passengers by the time of day [for almost any urban transit authority or private urban transit operator that exists or has ever existed], you get a curve that looks like the cross-section of a cowboy hat or a fedora: small base of riders at night (the brim) suddenly shoots up in the hours after 5 or 6 am to reach a peak about 9am, then descending to a high plateau that lasts through the midday until the evening rush hour, where there is another peak. After that peak, there is a rapid descent to night-time ridership levels.
Placing a line across the curve where the average ridership is results in a line above the midday plateau but below the two peaks, IIRC. A cost-minimizing or profit-maximizing transit operator will have enough operating trains/buses/streetcars/whatever to handle the average load (plus a margin for vehicles out of service for repair, maintenance, etc.).
In short, a well-run transit system will have seats for everyone EXCEPT during peak-travel hours, when there SHALL be "overcrowding". Buying enough rail cars/buses/whatever to give everyone a seat at rush-hour means that you've increased your costs much more than you've increased ridership (aka revenue). On the other hand, consistent overcrowding at off-peak hours is a sign that you're not buying enough vehicles.
[If you calculate the number of passengers by the time of day [for almost any urban transit authority or private urban transit operator that exists or has ever existed], you get a curve that looks like the cross-section of a cowboy hat or a fedora: small base of riders at night (the brim) suddenly shoots up in the hours after 5 or 6 am to reach a peak about 9am, then descending to a high plateau that lasts through the midday until the evening rush hour, where there is another
peak. After that peak, there is a rapid descent to night-time ridership levels.]
It's always been a mystery why cowboy hats have dents in the top. Now we know - so they can represent the mass-transit demand curve :-)
But seriously, the fact that transit demand is so highly skewed depending on time of day is the real reason why it's almost always a moneylosing proposition. It's easy to blame greedy unions, clueless management, meddlesome politicians, and so on, but I find it hard to imagine that any type of business operation could operate at a profit given this situation.
Right you are. The purpose of a polity however is to organize and provide for itself--raise the money through bonded indebtedness and build a system with at least some chance of a seat in rush hour. AND land use and other planning so that most trains are not dead empty half the time. The beauty of the Red line at CTA or the F--they serve from both ends toward the middle so less time/equipment wastyes time being turned to run nearly empty for the next load.
Too bad the NX couldn't attract more riders when it was around...
All trains in Queens with the exception of G which are someitmes crowded as well in rush hours. R may seem empty but try to get on at Queens Plaza, N is always crowded during rush hours. The 7...if you don't get on Main Street, your not going to get a seat. E, F are actually not as bad as it seems, alot of times, they have room. Not seats!! but room. If you people consider no seats meaning CRAM, then no wonder, ALL TRAINS ARE CRAM THEN!!!!! E, F often have room in rush hours. But Queens already have the most frequent trains already. You never have to wait for the these trains during rush hours, A, E, F, and 7. Plus, they can't really fit more trains in these lines, they're practically full.
I forget who posted the suggestion a while ago about putting reverse signalling on the IND express tracks in Queens so that you could run three tracks - two express - into Manhattan during the AM rush after the 63rd St. connection opens and three tracks back towards 179th and Jamaica Center in PM rush.
That would require all returning E, F, N and whatever-the-other-line-is (Q, V, G) to operate via local during those periods, so the idea might limit the number of trains going to or from Manhattan and Brooklyn. But it's worth a thought.
I often take the E train southbound during the am commute and "occasionally" northbound if the WTC crowd had not taken up all the seats. The E train, even when it enters West 4th Street station is very very crowded (and that's still lower Manhattan). I must sympathize with all of you guys who "must" use the E train to get to Queens. This is part of the reason I refuse to take the E to Roosevelt Blvd-Jackson Hts for my transfer to the #7 train upstairs. It just doesn't make sense.
Something else I found odd yesterday. Why is it that some C trains seem to have only 4 or 6 cars during peak hours? This was true during my return travel home yesterday. The C was unusually crowded during this trip because of the shorter train. I have seen longer trains (I think) on the C between 4:15 and 5:15pm- but I got off late yesterday so perhaps they reduce car lengths early in the pm peak (which doesn't make any sense to me).
Perhaps some TA folks on this messageboard can shed some light on this situation.
Francine
Unlike the LIRR, the TA NEVER will run a train shorter than it's prescribed consist. Service on the C train, during peak hours, calls for 8 60-foot cars. If there was a shortage of 2 cars, the train would be ABDd and remain in the yard. I'd be interested in any specific examples to the contrary.
BTW - When the LIRR runs a short train, they alert the customers by operating with the headlights and tail lights illuminated simultaneously.
Some weekends on the A Division we have short train.
No. 5 line 6 cars
No. 6 Line some Nights on R 62a 5 cars Redbird 6 Cars
some Weekends
R 62a 7 cars
R 29/33/36 8 cars
David, I understand this is the case. But this is by plan. What I would be interested in is (for example) 6 car J train when the schedule calls for 8 car trains.....
[if the same share of NYC adults were working as in the U.S. as a whole, there would be approximately 550,000 more people working in the city. That's right, 550,000. Even though we are back at the 1987 to 1989 employment peak, we have a long way to go.]
There was a report today on cnn.com that illustrated this point. According to a review by the Brookings Institute, during the 1994-98 period - in other words, since there's been a major push toward welfare reform - welfare has become increasingly concentrated in large cities. In most cases, the largest city in each state accounts for a disproportionate and increasing share of that state's caseload. And no city illustrates this trend as well as New York. New York City accounts for 69.5% of New York State's 1998 welfare caseload, up from 68% in 1994. That's the highest such city-state concentration in the country (except for Milwaukee, where the figures are skewed by Wisconsin's special welfare reform program), and surely does put a new perspective on the oft-quoted claims about the city's allegedly declining welfare rolls.
Transit implications seem rather evident. IF there ever is realistic welfare reform in the city, something that I don't see as a foregone conclusion by any means, there certainly would be another big upsurge in transit ridership. Exactly how big is difficult to say, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were a substantial proportion of the 550,000 new workers you mentioned. And one would have to be a huge optimist to expect the transit system to be able to handle that kind of increase on top of the new ridership that's already occurred.
(Missing 550,000 workers). Let's face it, there are some people who are too screwed up to hold a job, and while other areas try to keep them out, NYC tries to accomodate them. Therefore, that's where they are. Relocate them to growing areas where low wage jobs are pletiful? That's something NO ONE would dare propose.
The odds of coming up with that many jobs are low, but much of the growth would have to be outside Manhattan, in the old industrial areas. Sure hope that movie studio proposed for the Brooklyn Navy Yard gets financing.
The Brookings Study assumes that having federal funding for these people cut off, bankrupting the communities where they live and/or leading to hunger and suffering, would represent failure. I'm not sure that the people who wrote the welfare reform law would agree. If a tree falls in the woods and no one hears it, did it really fall? If a poor person starves in the Bronx and no middle income suburbanite has to seem him, did he really starve?
Oh so the trains have gotten worse? Did you forget all that graffitti? Did you forget trains are now air conditioned? Did you forget trains being taken out of service numerous times daily? What about all the equipment fires? Things have gotten a lot better in the last 33 years. You are a very angry man.
Why dont you go another half block over to the R train at 49st and Bway to get to Queens. Then switch over when you get to Queens Plaza.
Have you ever tried to get on a Queens-bound E train at Queens Pza during the evening rush hour?
¡Impossible!
Wayne
Are you in favor of every other E train operating express between Canal Street and 42 Street? Other than that, FORGET about getting on a train with space at that time.
As I've said, how about making Roosevelt a local stop during rush hours once 63rd St opens? All those changing from the #7 would board a local 6th Avenue or 7th Avenue train -- those on the R could change to the E at Queens Plaza, while both the local and express 6th Avenue trains would bypass QP. Fewer transfers, less delay, and a nice ride from Forest Hills to QP on the E.
You know, I have had that very same idea, especially since G capacity is seldom used during rush hours. I would even take it one step further and send every other R express once in Manhattan. This would certainly speed the trip up and will even reduce the amount of transfers necessary at Queens Plaza.
The bottom line is, once 63rd St opens the TA will have more tunnel capacity than it can use -- but no room for more express trains. The key will be to convince people to stay on the local rather than pack onto an express. Since those in inner Queens have a shorter ride, they are the best candidates for a local ride. Thats' why you have the expresses skip Roosevelt, and have a couple of services skip Queens Plaza as well.
Hey that's another thing about the F. Every monring at Bergan Street the platform is overcrowded with people who have to wait for two or three empty G trains to pass through in order to squeeze onto the F train. This jives with the notion that the main goal of the TA is a riderless system where they have little work to do. The G train, I believe is the prototype for this ideal. Remember, convenience to employees is far more important than convenience to customers.
Though, I don't reside in NYC anymore, I fondly remember the E train because as of last year, they were exclusively R32 subway cars.
In just about every case, the E line runs R32 cars. In a few rare instances, an R46 will be used as a stand-in.
Wayne
(Bergen St) Back in the 1980s, you couldn't even get on an F train at Bergen. In fact, if I didn't get to Prospect Park for the 7:25, I often had to let 2 or 3 train pass just to get on. The F is less crowded than 10 years ago, at least in Brooklyn.
The E merges with the F at Fifth Ave. Nothing can be done by the TA. The line runs at overcapacity.
What part of the Queensborough bridge did the el use to cross over? is this part still in use?
The connections on each end are still visable.
However, not having been across the bridge in over 30 years,
I am not sure wat the current usage is.
A picture of an el train on the bridge appears in the book
N Y Transit Memories.
The el used to run above the main roadway, where the current upper level roadway is, and then hooked into the Second Ave line between 59th and 60th Sts. The looping access ramps on the Queens side and the cutouts between buildings from 57th and to 62nd St on the Manhattan side were added on when the upper road was built.
Are there any maps available on the web ,or elsewhere,of the IND PhaseII plans?.I know about the BAHN version ,but i'm a Mac user so its not an option for me.Any suggestions?
There is mention of a book, 12 Historical Street and Transit Maps, or something like that, which includes a 1929 map of proposed Second System lines, in the IND Second System section on this website. I picked up a copy at Barnes & Noble while in the city last fall.
I have been introduced to this site by a friend today and am very impressed with all the dialogue. Hopefully, no one will mind a woman commenting on the subway system. For some reason, I get the impression that I'm the only female in the room. In any rate, keep the great discussions going. I too love subways and ride them daily to and from work.
Francine
Francine: Welcome, I don't know if there are any other women sub-talkers but many use handles or nicknames that don't identify there sex. I do know that one of the biggest contributors to this website is a Peggy Darlington who is responsible for all those great line tours. This is a good place to exchange info and learn things.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks Larry, RedbirdR33- nice "handle". I love the redbird subway cars as I ride them daily on the #7 Flushing line. Unfortunately, I have heard that they will soon be replaced with more modern cars. If I worked for the MTA and held an influential position, I would at least keep a few of those old subway trains running for historical reasons. I have lovely memories of these original cars from the mid-1960s World's Fair Days. Except they were not painted red in those days. Nice chatting with you Larry.
Francine
Francine: You remember when the "Redbirds" were the "Bluebirds" or at least those of the R-33 and R-36 orders that had the picture windows and were assigned to the #7 Line. One R-33 Bluebird is preserved at the TA Museum at Court St in the original colors.
Best Wishes,Larry,Redbird
Wow, it's so cool that you are here. My Girlfriend HATES transit, and while that is no reason to leave her (I hope), I wish she had more intrest in it?
Does any one else have a problem with their girlfriends/wives (and now ...Husbands) who think they should spend less time with trains and more time with them???
My wife hates trains and doesn't want me or my son to talk about them. She didn't wait my son to even learn about trains but he some how developed an intrest in transit. When I come home from work my son always talks about my job as a Train Operator. We Talk about Redbirds Vs Silver Bullets. We talk about the pick. My son really wants my to pick the No. 2 or 5 Line. We talk about brakedowns and i ask my son if he was the Towerman what would he do and how would he handle the situation. I should get a currect answer because he reads the rulebook every night on his own and rides my train at times. Then we talk about the Low V and my wife tells me i should save money buy skiping fan trips. Thats not going to happen. I would go AWALL TO RIDE THAT TRAIN.
After 30+ years, my wife has had her fill of trains. Since I do socialize with some railroad people, this has a downside but there is also a bright side to it too. Now when I plan a motorcycle trip, I simply tell my wife we're going to a railroad museum or other facility and she opts not to go along. It's alot easier than trying to convince her that my rear seat fell off or was stolen.
This is very funny, Steve. My ex-husband hated commuting by any form of public transportation including LIRR. I was the one who always "enjoyed" riding mass transit despite our having an extra vehicle for me to take to work. Occasionally, (during our civil days) he would drive me out to #7 Main Street subway station in Flushing, Queens instead of me walking down the hill and taking the suburban bus system N20/N21 to the station. He refused to ride the train with me into Manhattan despite his having easy access to a station in midtown where he used to work. What an ego problem! Of course, I did ride with him to Manhattan from time to time during inclement weather but most other times opted for the mass transit method.
Francine
Funny, I met my wife (of 23+ years) in a carhouse. In 1974 I was introduced to her in the Falls Road Car House of BSM. I asked her out, and the rest (as they say) is history. She knew what she was getting into right from the start. She's bought train stuff for the house, got involved at BSM and is now the Membership Chair(wo)man. She's involved with the Tinsel Trolley (our Christmas event), as well as other member activities.
As for others...
Our Vice President Engineering and his wife were married on our open car (1164), are both very active in BSM, and have other interests in common. Cath is our Auditor, a major participant in Tinsel Trolley, and teaches the docent part of the training course. Oh, yes. They are both qualified motor/conductor. John is qualified on everything, but Cath is two-man qualified only - she doesn't like the modern cars.
Dan, My wife is more interested in the Orioles than trains. Do you have any suggestions for me to squelch this baseball fan business and convert her into a transit fan?
Regards, Karl B.
Assuming you're in the Baltimore area, take the Light Rail or MARC or the Metro to Oriole Park. That way, you're both happy. Just like when my wife and I go to Yankee Stadium - take the D or the #4.
Andy, We live in Pennsylvania and I haven't been to Camden Yards yet by any type of train. I have been down twice by charter bus. My wife and her sister drive to Owings Mills where they leave the car and then ride the Metro.
Hey, if I could meet someone who was into transit, was a Met fan, and had a musical background...
One time while visiting BSM Dan was giving me a private tour and a regular visitor/volunteer? told my wife "you lost him now!" My excitement is hard to contain especially when I can see a streetcar that I was specifically looking for.
Some other note worthy visits were Rockhill Furnace trolley museum, National Capitol and Seashore.
I am fortunate because my wife has never minded my interest in trains. In fact, she likes to ride almost as much as I do. Because she grew up in the Bronx in very modest circumstances (no family car) she learned early on to travel on the #4 Woodlawn-Jerome, the D train, and the BX 1 and 2. She also dislikes flying, so much so that on two recent Florida vacations we opted for the Amtrak auto train instead of flying! BTW, this August will mark 29 years of marriage for us.
My wife chats with me about zoning and infrastructure. In return, I often talk with her about finance industry regulation, and we watch Wall St Week together every Friday.
Yes, we are that dull.
CONGRADULATIONS ANDY (yes in capitals). I' going on 26 myself. All the best.
Larry,Redbird R33
My [common-law] wife Roe doesn't like to travel, period. However, she has become rather interested in my work and I often find her with a stack or two of my pictures, gazing wistfully at some terra-cotta plaque or ornate cartouche. She likes the artwork, especially the murals at 110th-Lexington and the Bloomingdales mosaic at 59th-Lexington. She also enjoyed Children's Cathedral at Utica IND - she couldn't imagine how the tilesmith recreated the childrens' drawings so faithfully.
Wayne
Yes, but I solved that problem...SHE joined the transit museum, and now insists on joining me on my 'excursions'. She also asks why we don't go to more museum events....
-Hank
Glad your wife is so interested! Mine will join me on occasion, as will one or more of our children, but only one - our older son, now a freshman in college - has a serious interest in trains. And he makes it clear that he's interested in trains, not transit. I'm working on the next generation now ... our grandson (almost 2 years old) loves to go chasing "choo-choos" with me when I go out to Nevada for a visit. He had his first ride on the subway last month when I accompanied him and our older daughter to JFK for the flight home - Penn Station to Howard Beach on the A during the awful snowstorm that closed Newark (where they were originally scheduled to fly from).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
WHOA! Don't marry me yet! I'm still just dating!
-Hank :)
I don't mean to brag or gloat, but I don't have that problem. I'm not married (never have been) and am not particularly looking, although I am seeing someone casually.
It also helps when you buy American Flyer trains and run up a national debt in the process - I don't have to check with anyone.
Welcome Francine,
I have seen a few posts from women here, but I don't know of any regular SubTalkers that are female. We're a big happy family here - I hope you enjoy.
Wayne
Welcome Francine-- you're one of the few. It seems like rail/transit fans are typically male, and this forum is no exception. But don't let that scare you! Welcome aboard. (and watch the closing doors)
-Dave
You'll see quite a few posts here from "subway-buff." While I'm not 100% certain, I sort of suspect that subway-buff is from the non-male half of the population ... if I'm wrong, subway-buff, please forgive me :-)
I suppose if you had a Low-V out back everybody would consider you royalty:)
As it is, if you're interested in the historical, technical and what-if type of things( like the talked-to-death-and-back Second Avenue Subway[2AS]) this is 'da place.
It's the biggest, the best and the only one that is regularly updated
(yes, there are websites with "The new R-110B's"as a caption. I've seen them!)
If you're a new comer to the world of railfansim, please be sure to read some of the technical stuff in the other areas of the site, namely FAQ's. Lately there have been posts that would have been more than answered if the person bothered to read them.
Again, welcome to our humble abode and visit often!
J.Westinghouse, Official decryer of the M-4 subway car.
The gender of a poster to subtalk (or bustalk) does not matter. What does matter is a knowledge of and love of the subways.
Take Peggy Darlington who has contributed the station-by-station. That is a female who loves the subway. Do you think that maybe there are many females out there who prefer a gender neutral name to avoid unwanted e-mail from those with more thanm transit on their mind.
Francine, welcome aboard! You'll find that most of us Subtalkers share a fondness for the Redbirds, myself included, and will greatly miss them once they're gone. I remember the original paint scheme on the R-36s, too, and took the 7 to Shea more than once to see the Mets in action.
Keep in touch!
Welcome aboard, You alot of good people on subtalk that now lot of suff on subways in genaral. The are lots of transit workers and New York transit museum volenteers and ordinary people. But we all have one thing in commen. Were all train buffs that like and preserve the old trains like our faverite redbirds and other types of trains.
Welcome aboard Francine!
I don't think anyone will mind -- as a matter of fact I think this site could use a feminine touch.
It's great to have you aboard. I assume you ride the NYCT. If you have any questions on signaling and train control please ask them and I will glad to respond.
Welcome aboard Francine! Many of us share our experiences with operation, equipment, old memories, new plans, what's good, what's not so good, triumphs, tragedies, favorites, dislikes etc. all involving the NYC Subway, the life-giving arteries of the City that Never Sleeps. Myself, I am particularly fond of the Art in Tile and Terra Cotta that decorates the underground stations. Check out some of the "Line by Line" pages for photos of these mosaics.
I am also quite fond of the Canarsie ("L") Line...
Wayne (MrSlantR40)
Welcome but hardly the first or the only. I can tell you that there are at least one of the following that visit or post here frequently.
A train operator
A conductor
A RR Clerk
A Station Manager
A (famous) Porn Actress - (Don't ask me who guys cause my lips are sealed.
Steve, if i don't have the name of that porn actress in my email by 5:00 pm I'll be pretty upset. :-)
-Dave
p.s. Just kidding. But's it's nice to have some movie stars around. :)
Now we know why the wives get upset when we stay on the computer too long:)
Maybe I should make sure the kid isn't up to anything sinister.....
Check you mail today Dave. I'm sure she'll get a kick out of knowing we're talking about her... By the way, She's an R line fan. Go figure.
I just thought I would jump in here and start a new thread. What subway line do you ride each day? I ride the #7 Flushing Line each weekday to work. Then I catch the A, C, or E at Times Square (after walking that awful blocklong walkway) for my ride down to West 4th Street. Who else rides daily?
Francine
Presently I ride WMATA's Red Line. When I was still NYC I rode the D & E lines to work.
My "home circut" is the F from Prospect Park to Jay St, then the A/C to Chambers.
Now that my kids are school age, however, I have a little more time to branch out. Sometimes I walk up to Grand St, take the D/Q to Prospect Park, they walk across the Park. Other times I walk across the park to the 2/3 at Grand Army, get out at Brooklyn Borough Hall, then walk over the Brooklyn Bridge. When I feel I deserve to suffer, I walk down to 4th Avenue and crawl up to Chambers or City Hall on the M, N or R. So I get to seem more of the system.
With the 2000 census coming up, I might get to travel around Brooklyn more. I've volunteered for all the field work in my home borough I can get. A bad day in the field is better than a good day in the office.
Francine,
Have you tried transferring to the E or F at Roosevelt (even if it means backtracking along the Flushing line to get there?) Your ride might be faster although probably not any less crowded.
-Dave
Hello Dave,
I have traveled that route and to be honest, I prefer it. But the problem is that I board at Main Street in Flushing (connection from my Long Island Bus) and I ALWAYS get a seat! Those 11-car trains always have at least one seat for me somewhere, no matter how many riders pack those trains at the terminal. Once I get a seat, I like to stay seated. So, I typically ride the entire line from end to end in a comfortable seat (sort of). The E and F trains are ALWAYS packed and you never get a seat (as others here on SubTalk can attest).
Francine
Oh, and to answer your question, currently my commute is two short stops along the PATH (Grove St. to World Trade Center) then walk. I used to work in midtown, for a while on 53rd St. where I would take the PATH to WTC then the E to 7th Ave/53rd St., and also for a while at 40th & 5th, which was PATH to 33rd, then a B/D/F/Q to 42nd in the morning, and then walk back at night.
Like your comments on the Flushing line-- the PATH is getting more and more crowded every day. Quite often I have to allow a WTC-bound train pass me, and on bad weather days I have had to skip up to 3 trains before one came with any room on it.
-Dave
As you'll see, we have SubTalkers from all over the country (and the world). As a resident of Boston, my daily commute includes the Purple Line (commuter train) then the Green Line (trolley).
But one weekend or so a month I commute to NYC, and within the space of two hours, I take:
Boston Green Line trolley
Boston Blue Line subway
Massport #22 shuttle bus
USAirways Shuttle
Triboro Coach Q-33
Train
(though sometimes for a change I'll take the M-60 to the from LGA!
How do you and Slant40 Wayne do those cool "SubFonts"?
If we keep up this "Sub-" prefixing we're all gonna start feeling like Bat(wo)men:
"Sorry, the subway was late and I lost my subglasses and then spilled my subcoffee.":)
Holy speeding subway!
Tis not a font, tis an included image from someone else's web server.
Tip for those who use them-- include an alt="" tag so those with lynx or whatever can see what you're talking about :)
I just use HTML markup in my posting text. You put your markup statement inside angle brackets. I'll illustrate:
<font color=FF6820> <b> B </b> </font>. That will give me a bold, orange "B". The markups with the slashes terminate the effects I specified.
Here are the font colors for all Subway Letters/Numbers, past/present.
7th Avenue Red (1, 2 , 3, 9, 12, 13): FF0000
Broadway Gold (N, Q, R, W): FFD720
6th Avenue Orange (B, D, F, Q, V): FF6820
Crosstown Light Green (G): 00DD40
Lexington Green (4, 5, 6, 8, 10): 009300
8th Avenue Blue (A, C, E): 0000FF
Flushing Purple (7, 11): D000D0
Nassau Brown (J, M, Z): AA7500
Canarsie Grey (L): A0A0A0
Old colors not in use (1967 through 1979 maps):
Light Blue (E, M, NX, 3, 8): 40E0D0
Magenta (AA, F, MJ, 4): FF0080
Black (B, LL, QJ, 5): 000000 or just bold/unbold <b>QJ</b>
Remember, use the angle brackets (< >).
Wayne
Hey wayne i try the color but didn't work and came out bold letter with no color.
DNJ
This is exactly how it should look:
<font color=FF6820><b>D</b></font>
Result should be: D.
NOTE: THOSE ARE ZEROES, not letter O's. You should always have six characters in your font color. It should only contain the numerals zero (0) through nine (9) and the letters A,B,C,D,E, or F.
Wayne
Wayne.
Just what is the proposed service for the 12,13, the W,the V,the 8,10, and the 11?
OK, here's what we've heard so far, much of this is still in the planning and/or discussion stages. Many subway cars are currently carrying these route designations on their rollsigns, but they are not in regular use. I see them occasionally between cars in the middle of trains or in the side window of a car in the middle of the train which has been signed up incorrectly.
"A" Division:
8: A proposed alternative name for the current Diamond 6, Pelham Express. Some sources indicate that this number may be used instead for Pelham Locals to East 177th-Parkchester, with the express service retaining the 6 designation.
10: A proposed alternative name for the current Diamond 5, Lexington Avenue Thru Express.
11: A proposed alternative name for the current Diamond 7, Flushing Express.
12, 13; obviously Seventh Avenue routings, perhaps alternate destinations or rush-hour special services for 2 and 3 lines.
"B" Division:
V: Proposed Sixth Avenue service, terminals still under discussion, probably will not see the light of day until 2001 when the 63rd Street Connection opens.
W: Proposed Broadway service, south terminal ostensibly Whitehall Street (hence the initial), northern terminal under discussion, possible route of future Broadway-2nd Avenue Line or service to Astoria. Currently a diamond sign, indicating only rush-hour use.
This is all conjecture at this point, and comes from various sources and postings. Nothing is etched in stone yet and is **subject to change**.
Thanks for passing on the DC Metro Article! I have September 18th circled in GREEN.
Wayne
Dont forget the K-Washington Hts-8th Ave Local, the R-Nassau St-4th Ave Local, the H-Rockaway Shuttle.
Plus the shuttles S 6th Ave, S-63rd St, and S,
-Rockaway (1992 version). Soon to join the ranks in a few months will be the S Nassau Street due to the Willy B shutdown.
Speaking of the old days who can't forget about the good ol JFK Express or the B/D over the Manhattan Bridge & Bway Express in the mid 1980s?
Anyhoo, last nite a conductor at 34th Street told me that the KK wasn't running so I had to take the
F to Delancey Street for the QJ. So I wound up taking theRR to Canal Street instead.
I am a traditionalist - I refuse to acknowledge the "S" as the Rockaway Park Shuttle, preferring to call it the "H". I have the brown "R" as a diamond sign. I'll have to check to see which "K" I have, it could be Blue (8th Ave or the original color), Orange (for 6th Ave) or Gray (some trains carry this for Canarsie skip-stop).
Maybe what I'll do is make up another set using the 1967 Map colors.
It isn't too hard to do - set the color and use the color eraser to make the substitution.
My GIFs are 40 pixels round, diamonds are also 40 x 40.
Maybe I should zip them up and send them to Dave so he can make them freely available on the site. Then all you'd have to do is refer to them (using the proper directory) in your postings. They would load faster too, being on the current server. The only question is, the size: is it too big/small? Only way to find out is to try it.
Wayne
(I'm re posting this due to a bunch of errors in the last version of this message..I'm still new at this:) )
Dont forget the K Washington Hts-8th Ave Local, the R Nassau St-4th Ave Local, the H Rockaway Shuttle.
Plus the shuttles S 6th Ave, S 63rd St, and S Rockaway (1992 version). Soon to join the ranks in a few months will be the S Nassau Street due to the Willy B shutdown.
Speaking of the old days who can't forget about the good ol JFK Express or the
B or D over the Manhattan Bridge & Bway Express in the mid 1980s?
Anyhoo, last nite a conductor at 34th Street told me that the
KK wasn't running so I had to take the F to Delancey Street for the QJ. So I wound up taking the RR
to Canal Street instead.
I usually walk to work, so no daily subway trip for me. But I do the NY-Boston trip once every few months to visit friends, and my usual route is:
4/5 from Fulton to Grand Central
6 to 51 St
E/F to Roosevelt Ave
Q47 to Marine Air Terminal
Delta shuttle
Massport shuttle bus
Blue Line to Gov't Ctr
Green Line to Park
Red Line to Harvard or Porter
When all goes well, this takes me just under three hours. Once the trip took me 10 hours, because most of the shuttle flights were cancelled by bad weather.
Occasionally I take the water shuttle to LGA, which means the trip encompasses ferry, jet, bus, light rail, and heavy rail travel. (I suppose if I were to take a trolleybus after arriving in Cambridge I could add another mode...? :-)
I like being eclectic in my choice of lines. As I ride the LIRR and work at the corner of Fifth Avenue and 14th Street, I have quite a few choices of both train terminals and subway routes, and try to mix them up as much as possible (hey, being stuck in a rut's no fun!). These are the routes I use:
1) LIRR to Penn Station, 2 or 3 to 14th (most common choice).
2) LIRR to Penn Station, PATH from 33rd Street to 14th (about once a week).
3) LIRR to Flatbush Avenue, 4 or 5 from Atlantic to 14th (about once every other week).
4) LIRR to Flatbush Avenue, M or N from Pacific to 14th (once every other month or so).
5) LIRR to East New York, L from Atlantic to Union Square (once every other month or so).
6) LIRR to Long Island City, 7 from Vernon-Jackson to Grand Central, then 4 or 5 to 14th (about once a month).
These are all morning routes. Afternoons, unless there's bad weather, I walk to Penn Station.
Hello Peter,
Wow- you walk all the way from 14th Street to Penn Station (34th Street). That's a nice excercise.
I too have options and I have used them all. But I prefer my current travel route because it's just plain simple. I could take the LIRR from Great Neck or Little Neck in Queens (for a bit cheaper ride) direct to Penn Station and take the IND lines down to West 4th Street but I seldom get a seat on the LIRR. And I hate to stand for 45 minutes with my hands full with work accessories. This is why the #7 train is perfect for me. On my return trip, I board at W4th Street- mostly ride the C or E trains since the first few cars are not as crowded. Then I get onto the #7 in Flushing and never have a problem with finding seat since it's the first stop. I try for the 7X trains but not always lucky- not much of a difference anyway. The only part of the journey I hate is boarding southbound IND trains at 42 Street (A, C, E) during my morning commute- I have yet to find a seat on that journey.
Francine
The walk from 14th to Penn Station isn't bad. I can do it in just under 20 minutes. Mornings are a little too rushed, so I generally use the subway then.
If you're heading to the W4th area from Penn Station, and don't like to stand on the subway, you might consider PATH as an alternative. It's not that long a walk from Penn to the 33rd Street terminal, and 9th Street is reasonably close to W4th. There's never a long wait for a PATH train, both Journal Square and Hoboken trains work equally well, and since you'd be traveling in the offpeak direction seats are plentiful. And don't forget that PATH is only a dollar!
Thanks Peter for the information. I think I'll give this a try if weather permits. I carry several items when commuting so it might not be practical. Then again, tomorrow is Friday so I might have a lighter load.
I have never used PATH. I didn't know fares were only $1.00. I gather there is no free transferring between the subway system and PATH trains. I'll let you know how it goes.
Francine
I live at Houston and Sullivan and take the A C E from W 4th to 34th. Then I take NJT to Rahway where I get a shuttle bus to Merck. It takes about an hour from door to desk (+/- 5 min.) Not bad. The only odd thing is that the C & E are always faster than the A train in the AM. The worst aspect of this commute is fighting the flow of people in Penn St. as I go from Subway to train while a majority are moving in the other direction.
I tried taking PATH from Christopher St. or 9th St. to Newark via Jounal Square. This saved about $100/month but it took 1hr. 40 mins each way. Just too much! Most of the delay was from how slow PATH trains are between Christopher and Journal SQ. It took me 45 minutes just to get to Journal Sq.
PATH is cheaper, but I think it runs way less frequently than the ACE, 1239, or BDFQ.
First G train to Court Square
Than E and I am almost home. I mean I start my job
[I tried taking PATH from Christopher St. or 9th St. to Newark via Jounal Square. This saved about $100/month but it took 1hr. 40 mins each way. Just too much! Most of the delay was from how slow PATH trains are between Christopher and Journal SQ. It took me 45 minutes just to get to Journal Sq.
PATH is cheaper, but I think it runs way less frequently than the ACE, 1239, or BDFQ.]
PATH to Journal Square does tend to be on the slow side. For local travel in Manhattan, such as my 33rd - 9th suggestion, it's just as fast as the subway, and the ability to use either Journal Square or Hoboken trains makes service frequencies better.
actually you might take PATH to the Ninth St stop which is one real block north of the W4th stop, also worth tryinr, change southbound at "5th Ave" from the #7 to B, D, Q, F for W4th
David, I have tried the latter route with some success. Though, I must confess that for some reason, I just don't like riding the B or D trains. I find the B trains very dirty. I have ridden the Q trains before- very odd looking subway cars. I believe they are called R-40 cars (seen a picture of them in a historical subway book at the Transit Museum), they have a slanted front end which is really unique for New York City trains. I remember these particular trains used to be used on the F trains in Brooklyn- probably the late 1960s. They were so odd looking to me but I loved them. Still do. Not sure if they are on the Q line in 1999- need to find this out.
Francine
You're right - the slant R-40s, as they are known, were initially assigned to the E and F lines in 1968. They looked, shall we say, unique to just about everyone. My sister, who certainly is not a transit buff, liked them back then, which is really saying something!
Here is where you can find the legendary Slant R40:
Q: Sixth Avenue Express
N: Broadway/Sea Beach Line
L: 14th Street Canarsie Line **
** The Canarsie Line SlantR40s will be transferred to the Broadway/Sea Beach Line in May when the Williamsburg Bridge closes.
Now and then they will use one as a fill-in on the B, Sixth Avenue Express, but this is rare.
The 300 Slant R40, designed by Edward Loewy and William Snaith, built by St. Louis Car Company and delivered in 1968 and 1969, were actually two car orders: R40 (non-air-conditioned) and R40A (air-conditioned). Their unit numbers are 4150 thru 4449. They received a General Overhaul (GOH) in 1989 courtesy of Sumitomo Inc.
The pantograph gates and safety rails on the slanted ends were added after delivery.
Wayne (MrSlantR40)
I regularly ride Philadelphia's Market-Frankford line, an unusual subway line just about any way you slice it.
It is jam-packed at the rush(usually on the west-bound trains for people living in the western suburbs).
Whenever I'm in NYC, I make it my business to get at least one ride in on the IRT 7th/Broadway(Really because I like to see the Redbirds[onthe#2]and the stainless steel R-62's[1/3/9] side-by-side).
I used to like the CPW express(the 'D' in particular) but those trains have gotten so slow!
Amen, brother! Those R-68s just plod along. Maybe wallow is a better word. They're a cross between a beached whale and a hippopotamus.
The all-time best CPW joyride was on an A train of R-10s, with the slant R-40s up there as well. The R-32s on the D were enjoyable, too.
I mostly ride the No. 6 line from 23 Street to Pelham Bay to talk to by friends before takeing the BX 12 Bus to 225 St and take the No. 9 train to my home term. Van Courtland. I can't wait to pick back to the No. 6 line daily and have Saturdays on the No. 5 line to run my favorite Redbird. I normally get a redbird at Pelham because some crews complain about taking a redbird down the road so i volunteer to take train.
I take the F from Van Wyck. I ususally get a seat 2 to 3 days a week. I take the F to West 4th and either take an A or C to Broadway-Nassau or the E to WTC. If I'm on a croweded F, sometimes I take the G at Queens Plaza and switch to the A or C at Hoyt Schimerhorn.
Going home, I like variety. I may take the A to Leffetrs, then the Q10, or I'll take a J or Z to Suthphin and backtrack on an E. I'v even tried taking the M to Metropolitan, but its a long wait for the bus.
While I am not a daily commuter to NYC, I do go into town two or three times a month to either take subway pictures or to visit my brother-in-law, who lives in a nursing facility in the Bronx. Sometimes I wind up doing both. To the Bronx, I usually take the 4 or the D. If I feel a little adventurous, I will take the 5 to 149th Street-Grand Concourse (Mott Avenue), rounding the jughandle curve and then changing for the 4. Coming back, I often walk over to Broadway from Kingsbridge Terrace (8 minutes) and hop on the BX7 or BX20 bus which takes me to 207th Street, where R38 or R44 A trains await me. In midtown, I can be seen frequenting the 8th Avenue A, C, or E trains.
My favorite line is the L, the 14th Street Canarsie Line, whose gorgeous mosaics I hold especially dear.
Wayne
I ride the LIRR into Jamaica. From there I transfer to the
E to Union Turnpike. From there I walk down one flight and head for my office.
I take the D train from Bedford Park Blvd to 47th Street-50th Street Rockefeller Plaza station. From there i walk to 50th street and Rockefeller plaza and i am at work. My work place is right behind Radio City Music Hall.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Have you ever met any Rockettes? (know what I mean, know what I mean, nudge, nudge...)
For me there is no one line. My "Home Station" is Cortlandt BMT however since I work extra I can work BMT, IND or IRT. The line I take depends which station I will be working on a particular day. I also consider any service diversions that may be in effect.
If I work IRT stations I'll take the IRT at Park Place for the express or Cortlandt for the #1. If I work IND I'll take the A or E.If I work Brooklyn, G line or 6av IND I might go the West 4th or Jay Street.
The only consistent item is I depart from one of the WTC mall area stations(Cortlandt N/R, Cortlandt 1, park Place 2/3, Chambers A/C/E).
Tonight & tomorrow, I drive to 239th St yard and walk over to 241 St to make the 0008 and the 0501 trips to Flatbush ( that's one loop around the ferry, express in Bklyn and one regular).
Next week, it will mostly be :
The S48 to St George Terminal
The Staten Island Ferry over to Whitehall
The 1 or 9 to Times Square
The 7 to Main Street
then I make 5 trips - Main St to TSQ and back
thenthe whole thing in reverse.
Unfortunately, I've abandoned the subway for my commute. I live on the upper west side and work on 5th ave. in the 50's.
My subway commute was just too frustrating -- C train from 81st to 59th (two stops), B or D one stop to 7th Avenue, E train one stop to 5th Avenue. If I got lucky, I'd get a B train at 81st and eliminate one of the transfers.
Now that the 5th Avenue entrance to the 5th Ave. station has been undergoing renovation, the entire commute via subway takes more than 30 minutes (counting the 10 minutes to exit the station at 53rd/5th.)
So, on nice days I walk (30 min) and on rotten days I take the M79 across the park to 5th ave for a downtown bus.
Why not take the C train down to 42nd Street/8th Avenue and then take the E train up to 53rd Street/5th Avenue. This requires only one transfer instead of two.
Cheers,
MIKE
That's true -- if the C comes in go to 50th St and turn around. If the B comes in transfer at 7th Ave. Either way, its only one transfer.
Thanks, appreciate the ideas. But the thought of doubling back drives me crazy. I'll just restrict my subway riding to nights and weekends -- at least until they reopen both my subway entrance (81st/CPW) and exit (5th/53rd). The 10 minute delay in exiting drives me nuts. I really can't help but think that there is a real safety hazard at 5th Ave. during the morning rush with only the one exit open.
(Larry -- can you transfer from the downtown C to the uptown E at 50th/8th without paying a second fare or do you have to go down to 42nd?)
Nevertheless, I'm sure my presence is not missed on those packed E trains.
Last week, I wrote the M.B.T.A about the 4 type 8 test trains that they have for the green line, and whether or not they will be in revenue service. Here was the reply:
We are presently testing the type 8 cars. If they pass the muster, orders will be placed to
fulfill the contract. If no
unexpected complications arise, we anticipate placing the test cars into Revenue service by late
March.
I hope things go to plan;then its likely I'll get to ride them before school ends for the summer. Also, the order of 100 type 8 cars will probably be placed soon, so they can arrive in the next to years. For those who are unfamiliar with them, these new cars have no stairs that you walk up (unlike the original lrv and type 7 cars), the seats are at ground level for easy wheelchair access.-Nick
There's a picture of the MBTA Green Line Type 8 trolley on the New England Transporation Site. I've seen them in person at the Riverside car barn, and they're... well... different.
I have, and ought to scan is, a few photos of Portland OR's MAX light rail, which uses them. There may / maynot be a shot of them on Tri Met's web page (www.trimet.org I think), but be warned their web page is kinda goofy :)
Anyway, next time I'm home (next good weekend that pops up - I miss my new bike :( I'll try to remember to bring them up here and scan them. They aren't the best (shot by my parents), but you at least can see a bit of the system. Interesting thing is - they don't take your tickets on the train, rather, they are 'subject to random inspection'.
The word you're grasping for there Todd is "ugly". :-)
-dave
Oh, Dave! Just trying to be diplomatic...
Having seen the first pictures of the Type 8 on the New England Transportation site, I have to agree. Seems like Breda can onlt build LRV's that pass an ugly test. Witness MUNI's Breda's and now the Type 8. The Type 7's had a front that resembled a PCC car (without the compound curves in the dash), but the Type 8 - an end right off the MUNI Bredas. In a word: UGLY!!!!
One other Type 8 gripe: When the Type 7's were in design, the operators were asked their preference for control equipment. The biggest operator complaint was the handle control on the Boeings, so the 7's came with pedals. With the 8's, that lesson was lost - back to handles again.
The Type 8 test trains may look ugly, but the M.B.T.A has proposed a different design for the main order. Go to http://streetcar.smfa.edu/images/type8.jpg if u want to see this design. However, no official decision on the design has been made.-Nick
The correct URL is http://smfa.edu/streetcar/images/type8.jpg. The images are at the School of Fine Arts, Boston. This may or may not be a design for the final order, but it is certainly more pleasing to the eye than the first test cars. All I can say is "I hope so." The Bredas of MUNI and the first Type 8's certainly fall into the UGLY catagory.
Egad, that is one ugly trolley! And these are the people that did the beautiful DC Metro cars. Say, if they're revitalizing trolley and light rail lines, why don't they just dust off the PCC blueprints and build some new PCC cars, just like the old ones? They seem to average about 50 years useful life....just look at Newark, Boston, SF MUNI...
Oh well...
Wayne
The Breda WMATA cars were built to WMATA's specs, not Breda's. The LRV's were designed by Breda's subsidary Pintafera. They don't seem to know that bulbous front ends are not needed in the US. MUNI's win 1st prize in the UGLY and cause problems the builder can't solve. Also, they seem to have a problem during "drag jobs". MUNI has cracked up at least 3 so far.
As to 1999 PCC cars, Tatra will be only too glad to build some for you. All solid state, B4 trucks, and boxy bodies.
The classic PCC design is 64 years old. It looks good to us because we've been around it (some of us for the whole 64 years) all our lives. However, it's still a design that looks great, wears well, and is a small nightmare to do body work on. They will live forever on the Streets of San Francisco. San Francisco, the city that holds on to everything. How many cities have a working part of the transit system that was around when their great-grandparents were kids.
Why is the PCC a "small nightmare to do body work on"?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Because of the compound curves in the bodywork (dashes, and on St. Louis Air cars the body side sheets as well) which car shops are not really set up for. The buy the proper rolling machinery to form the steel is very expensive. BTC and PTC did spend the money in the '50's for the equipment, but they were the execption. The Clark PCC was fitted with the salvaged front ftom a scrapped St. Louis car rather than try to reform the aluminum front.
Modern LRV's have either simple rolled fronts or square ends - why? It's easer to fix.
Oh, come on, cable cars are perfect for San Francisco, what with the steep hills. That's where they were invented. If the shoe fits, wear it. When the system was shut down for rebuilding, the diesel buses being used during the interim had problems getting to the tops of those hills, so much so that they had to discharge their passengers in order to do so. Everybody out and push!
The PCCs currently running on the F line on Market St. were bought secondhand from, I believe, Philadelphia. They were restored from the bottom up and look terrific. Unfortunately, the ones which MUNI bought new in 1950-51 became the R-16s of San Francisco by the early 80s. I rode them on the J line in June of 1981, just days before that route started operating in the subway, and the car I was on while heading back downtown croaked. We were discharged and the car had to be towed to the shop.
And remember, once upon a time MUNI wanted to junk the cable cars in favor of trolley coaches.
>The biggest operator complaint was the handle control on the Boeings
Actually, it isn't. Because AFIK, the Boeings had foot pedals, like the PCC. Could be wrong, as I never really did watch that guy closely, but I seem to recall the pedals. Actually, from a bus standpoint, pedals make sense. From an R/T standpoint they don't. Depends on where you (the driver) are comming from. BTW - these things are low floor, where is traction equipment cramed, and what kind of control is it? I'd imagine putting it on the roof is the logical location, but wouldn't that make the car awfully top heavy?
Unfortunately, your AFIK is in the wrong. All Boeing US Standard LRV's were equipped with a "joystick" handle for the controller. MBTA may have retrofitted the rebuilds with pedals along with the door and A/C refits.
Perhaps Todd or one of our Boston regulars could correct/add to our knowledge.
Very well possible I'm wrong - I'll admit I don't know an awful lot about Boston's stuff :)
Yeah Todd - help us out here :)
Dan,
You are correct. I ride the LRVs every day (and I've even run a few *grin*). The controller is called a "T-handle" in Boston lingo.
Why are there three different INDcar lengths(60',67',75')?
The 75 foot length was supposed to reduce maintenance by having fewer cars hold the same amount of people (8 cars of 75 foot = 10 cars of 60 foot). In actuality while true, there were delays due to fewer doors--a 10 car train has four sets of doors(8 doors) on each side or 80 doors per train while the 75 foot car trains have 64 doors or a 20% reduction in number of doors. Another problem is the huge gap on curves( which is why the doors between cars are locked)
The R-1s pioneered the 60-foot car, which was the standard IND length for nearly 40 years until the R-44s arrived.
The BMT standards were the original 67-foot cars which became, naturally, the standard length on the BMT. These cars did not operate on IND trackage except for Brighton locals on the Queens line when the connection from the 60th St. tunnel opened in 1955.
Since the Chrystie St. connection resulted in the merger of the IND and BMT, car standardization resulted in 60-foot cars being ordered throughout the 1960s to replace the standards and Triplex units.
Subway-buff pretty much answered the question of 75-foot cars, so I won't repeat it here.
The R-110Bs resurrected the 67-foot car concept; however, reports indicate the R-143s will be 60 feet long.
My fourth subway tour is in it's final planning stages. I shall be in NY for several days in the middle of March, the flight over occupying some twenty hours or so of precious touring time. Whilst most of my time will be spent soaking up the "redbirds" (this may be my last chance to see them) it would be nice to know what other sights and sounds of the subway interest other subscribers to these worthy pages. I am thinking about stations, subway cars, express sections of lines, bridges. I will list them all and make a special point in visitng the top three. My own favorites to date are 1. Failfan redbird ride Chambers Street to 96th Street. 2. Sbaro eatery overlooking 34th Street 1239 lines (great speghetti) 3. 72nd Street Station.
I will let you know the outcaome and if anyone predicts the most popular "subway favorite"
Don't forget the express jaunt up CPW. Just make sure you take an A train of R-38s or R-32s, since some of them have found their way over there.
If you're taking the 1/2/3/9 why not switch to local at 96th & take 1/9 to 168th. On the way see one station el at 125th, underground yard after 137th & walk over bridge at 168 plus 2 story elevator up to IND. At the other end, below Chambers, see wheel sprayers at South Ferry ... while there take free (boat) ride to SI.
OR turn around & get out a 116th & take a bus back down, OR walk down to Tom's Restaurant, i.e. "Steinfield". (there was an old Law & Order on recently, it had a shot in a Pizza place & a shot out the window of Tom's where you could see the "Tom" that you never saw on Steinfield).
At 42nd take #7 to Queensboro Plaza (see Manhattan skyline), switch to B/Q to take 63rd tunnel back, sorry you'll have to pay again, or take the N/R up to Ditmars for another nice view of Manhattan & Tri-Boro bridge.
As you can see I'm part tourest & part subway nut. Enjoy !
Mr t__:^)
We'll both be armed with fun-passes so we can get on and off at will (outside the 18-minute windows, of course)
Wayne
I found a bellmouth to the West (Right) of th the downtown Local track SOuth of 14th and 8th. The tracks swing to the left and the bellmouth is where the tracks would have gone straight. What is this for-- IND II or something else?
I'm not aware of any Phase II provision at 14th St.; however, given the way the IND was built, anything is possible. The only other thing I could think of would be unless the 8th Ave. line was originally going to continue due south and due to a change of plan turned and headed toward 6th Ave. under Greenwich Ave. I'll have to see that bellmouth for myself next time I'm in the city. I used to get off at 14th St. every Saturday at the south end, but never noticed anything.
It is in the tunnel.
Maybe the line was to go straight down Hudson St at one time.
Hi all. I have been wondering how is the MTA going to let go of the redbirds. What I mean is, when the all of the R-142's are finally in service will they have a celebration to say goodbye to the redbirds. Plus how many people would attened the event?
Christopher Rivera
Trust me - it won't be a celebration. It will be more of a funeral service lamenting the loss of a dear and faithful friend.
Hopefully, if some of the Redbirds are kept, such a somber ceremony won't happen anytime soon.
Karl: I read from your previous posting that you have ridden the #12 Lexington Av Line with the BU's. Do you recall riding either the Clark Bluebird or the Zephyr? I would appreciate hearing any info you might have on them as they were gone a little bit before I came onto the scene.
Best Wishes,Larry,Redbird
Hi Larry, RedbirdR33, You really shocked me with that #12 business. I had never heard that referred to as #12. I thought everyone always called it the "LEX". I don't have any recollection of ever even seeing the Bluebirds or the Zephyr. My only knowledge of them is through pictures in the books. I was a very prejudiced transit fan. If it didn't have open platforms and gates, it didn't cut it with me. If a Standard pulled into the Crescent St. station and I thought there was a "gate train" behind it, I would wait for the "gate train". Most of the time I would have to get off the "gate train" at either Eastern Parkway or Gates Ave and then get a Standard to finish my trip.
Regards, Karl B.
Hi, Karl. It should be pointed out that the BMT number code, while it encompassed all subway and elevated routes, was inconsistently applied to rolling stock. As you can attest, numbers never appeared on el cars, mainly because they had no end signs. Nor did the BMT standards, which was why I didn't particularly care for them. I'll bet you got to know the various marker light combinations pretty well!
The number code was implemented when the Triplex units were delivered; they were the first cars to have front end route and destination signs. There was one catch: they ran only on the Southern Division, so Eastern Division riders like yourself never saw them. The multis had end signs, but they ran on the Canarsie and Fulton St. el initially, then in 1956 were reassigned to the Myrtle-Chambers route. It wasn't until the R-16s arrived that Eastern Division riders began seeing number markings on any sort of regular basis.
You brought up a very good point: BMT riders generally referred to routes by their titles, instead of numbers. For instance, on the Southern Division, it was always Brighton, 4th Ave., West End, Sea Beach, and Culver, not 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. There was a lot of confusion when letter codes began to appear in the early 60s, even more so when the R-32s arrived in 1964-65.
Even today, Brooklynites still use the old Southern Division titles, and the L is still the Canarsie to me.
Hi Steve! When I first saw an R16 carrying #15 back in the 50's, I thought this was a brand new idea and that the Jamaica line had been numbered 15! I had no idea the numbers had been in existance before. I thought I knew so much about transit in those days -- I guess I really didn't! During non-rush hours we had one train to Jamaica. It was always Standards, and it always carried two green lights. The gate cars were a little easier -- they had a little wooden board that hung on the left side of the front car that told of the train's destination. Of course, if I was at Eastern Parkway and a gate train came in, I got on it! Several times I wound up at Grant Avenue in City Line! Believe it or not, it's not that long a walk back over to Fulton and Crescent, and I did it because I had an opportunity to ride another gate train. From what I read in SubTalk, you guys must have many more different trains to contend with now than we did 50 years ago!
I really don't understand this skip-stop business.
Regards, Karl B.
The Jamaica route was designated as #15 in the original BMT number code of 1925. And, yes, before the R-16s arrived, all Jamaica service was provided by BMT standards. Under those circumstances, it's very understandable that riders would have thought #15 was a brand new marking, never having seen it before (the multisectionals never ran there, apparently). In addition to referring to BMT routes by titles, riders also became very familiar with marker light combinations, something which, unfortunately, I never paid any attention to. IMHO, had the BMT standards been equipped with end signs, the number code would have caught on much more so than it did. They were the backbone of the BMT fleet, outnumbering all other car classes combined, and ran on all subway routes on both Southern and Eastern Divisions.
The IND letter code, on the other hand, caught on immediately because it was implemented at the same time the IND lines opened. On top of that, the R-1/9s had end signs right off the bat, too. Put it this way: "Take the Washington Heights/8th Ave. Express" just doesn't have the same ring to it as "Take the A Train". One slight qualification is in order: New Yorkers still refer to the IND as the 8th Ave. subway, even on the Queens line. This probably stems from the fact that the 8th Ave. line opened first.
Yes, the open platform el cars did carry destination placards on the end platforms on some routes. Since Lexington Ave. el trains could terminate at one of several different stations in Queens, this feature came in handy. Different marker light combinations were used to denote different terminals as well.
As for skip-stop service, the whole idea was to provide faster service, with short headways and fewer stops, on a long stretch of two-track line, and is generally used during rush hours. This concept was first implemented on the Jamaica line in the summer of 1959, and has continued in one shape or form to this day. The #14 and #15 lines made two separate sets of stops. Typically, the letters A and B are used to designate the two routes. Let's call the #14 A and #15 B for this example. Stations are put into one of three groups: A, which in our example #14 trains would stop at; B which #15 trains would stop at; and AB, where both trains stop. Usually, trains stop at every other station with this setup, with an AB station every, say, fifth or sixth station or so. Today, the J and Z lines operate in skip-stop service in the peak direction during rush hours. Chicago has also used this concept for years.
Sorry for the long-winded post.
Steve B. - I really wondered if I should have started a new subject, but since I am replying to you in this thread, we'll stick with it for now. Thanks so much for the explanation on skip-stop! I have a better understanding of it now -- even my wife understood what you said!! They must have started it before I left the city, but I sure don't remember it. I remember #15, but I don't remember seeing a #14. 'Course, I was the guy who didn't even know what #12 was!! I appreciate your time in explaining it -- I really feel out of touch with the transit system. You're right about the IND. I still think of it as the 8th Avenue Line. I always thought I was on the right train if it had florescent lighting. That was sort of stupid, wasn't it?? Do you go to transit memorabilia shows, and if so, do you ever see those old metal destination signs or the wooden hang-ons offered for sale? I'm talking about the ones that used to be used on the OP Gate Cars.
One last question -- I'm new to the computer and to the site and don't know a lot of the abbreviations. What the devil is IMHO? Karl B.
Karl: Although the BMT Route Numbering System was assigned in 1925 with the delivery of the D-Types, it was not in common use throughout the equiptment on the BMT System and especially the Eastern Division. The only cars on the Eastern Division regularly using roll signs with route numbers were the Multis and they were on the #13 14 St-Fulton St Exp and after 1956 the #10 Myrtle-Chambers St Line. The (#14) Broadway-Brooklyn Local would have used Standards which did not show route numbers. When the R-16's began to arrive in 1954 then the #14 could be displayed.
Best Wishes,Larry,Redbird
IMHO - "In My Humble Opinion..."
FYI - "For your information..."
BTW - "By The Way..."
GOH - "General Overhaul"
FAQ - "Frequently Asked Question(s)"
These are just a few of the "shorthands" we use
Wayne
Thanks Wayne, I do appreciate that. Two of them I knew but the other three really had me stumped. You have solved the mystery!
Would you like to try another one? AFAIK !
AFAIK stands for "As Far As I Know".
Wayne
Happy Monday! Glad to hear I was able to clarify the skip-stop business. As I said, it was first implemented on the Jamaica line between 168th St. and Eastern Parkway in the summer of 1959, so if you left the city in 1957, you wouldn't have been around to see it. Skip-stop service has also been used on other lines during regular service disruptions due to reconstrucion/rehabilitation. The Brighton line has seen such service at times. If you're interested, Joe Korman's website at www.quuxuum.org has some old pamphlets which have been scanned, including the introduction of skip-stop in 1959; Brighton skip-stop service in 1964 during station reconstruction, and older maps and associated services. I think there is even a schedule of Lexington el and Fulton St. el service. Don't miss the pamphlets which outlined service changes when the Chrystie St. connection opened! I remember those quite well. That website also has other interesting information.
To answer your other question, I haven't been to any transit memorabilia shows; we don't have anything like that in metro Denver, at least nothing that I'm aware of. The transit artifacts which I have were acquired from the Shore Line Museum, Cityana Gallery, the Transit Museum, Illinois Railway Museum, and other private sources.
P. S. Here are a few other abbreviations which are commonly used:
FWIW - For what it's worth;
NIMBY - Not in my back yard
Steve B. - Greetings! My mistake! From something you had said earlier I assumed that you were somewhere in New Jersey. I had no idea that you were way out in Denver.
The website sounds very interesting and I will check it out as soon as I can get this iMac to admit that it is a legitimate DNS.
I am not a computer person and we just had this brand new iMac 8.0 updated to 8.5 this past weekend. It did not work well before, and now it is even worse. iMac blames it on the ISP and the ISP blames it on iMac. I'm in the middle!
Unless there's something weird about the iMac that I don't know about, it's your ISP. My son runs MacOS 8.5 at Duke University on his old Performa and the college's G3 series machines and communicates with three different ISPs with no problems - via T1/ethernet on the G3 and 14.4 on the Performa.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Just to set the record straight, I did live in New Jersey from 1967 to 1973. My sister lives in Millburn today, where she is a suburban housewife raising a family.
We moved to Connecticut in 1973, where I remained until September of 1980 after completing my degree from UConn, when I came out to Colorado.
I was out on the subway Tuesday and had four very nice express rides.
1) A #5 Lex Av Thru-Exp,R-26 7784 Boro Hall to Utica. A great run and a chance to compare Contract II and Contract III construction. The interlockings at Atlantic and Franklin are not to be missed.
2) A Q 6 Av Exp, R-40 4206,Prospect Park to Sheepheads Bay. The Brighton Line still manages to retain an element of suburban character,even in the middle of February. Also I think this is the only place above ground where you can have four trains passing each other at the same time.
3) An N Broadway Lcl,R-32 3599, 59 St to Pacific. Still a nice straight run even though somewhat slowed by excessive grade-time signals.
4) A #2 7 Av Exp,R-33 8964,Chambers to 72 St. A great ride,with Redbirds no less.
Regards,Larry,Redbird
The best part of the No. 2 Express is flying around the curve at 59 St. But as far as Express rides on the IRT the No. 5 train takes the cake. Going Express from 125 St to Grand Central has to be the best part of the line.
i agree, the #4 and 5 between 59th and 125th Street is the best express run in the system. i could swear those trains go top speed at 103rd and 110th streets.........
I rode the Lex last fall and was sorely disappointed. The best any train could muster, be it Redbirds or R-62s, was maybe 30 mph. There were lots and lots of Yankee fans on their way to the Battery for the ticker tape parade.
As for express runs, I have to vote for the A up CPW. The R-38s aren't the R-10s, but at least they do better than the R-44s. Here's a what-if: can you imagine how the multisectionals would have done on that jaunt, the way they could flat out fly? I can hear Keith Jackson right now: whoa, Nellie! They would have blown the doors off of even the R-10s.
6th Ave. from 34th to W. 4th on a Q of slant R-40s. No slouch there.
Fulton St. express on an A of R-38s. I saw 'em get up to 40 mph last fall.
The straightaway runs down 7th Ave. and Park Ave. The Redbirds were oh so smooth on the 2!
Ahhh, nothing beats the long railfan window of a Slant R40.
Get an R38 on the "A" and take a run from Hoyt Schermerhorn to Euclid Avenue. That is a pretty good express run, even with the three stops along the way. Ditto for the Queens Boulevard line ("E", of course) from Queens Pza to 71st-Continental.
Wayne
Unfortunately, the best run on the IND, 59th to 125th, is taken up mostly by R-44s and R-68s. How does the R-38 rate on that section compared to the R-10s or Slant 40s?
It smokes 'em! Noticeably faster, if signals are favorable. The R44 and R68 poke along, even under full green. The railfan window of the R38 is also a big plus (in addition to their handsome interior decorations).
NB: I was on an R44 #5408 (A) and the operator briefly took it to 47MPH along the Fulton Express between Hoyt-Schermerhorn and Nostrand. He hit this speed between Clinton_Wash and Franklin Avenue. Not a bad speed for an R44. This car has a sort of railfan window - the view of the cab is not obscured, and I was able to see inside it. One of the few R44s I've seen that you could actually see out of the front of.
Wayne
No contest - nothing could or ever will beat an R-10, although the slant R-40s, when they displaced the R-10s 20-plus years ago, would have given them a run for their money.
Ahh the E to 71st Continental, they stuck some grade timers in there. The trip is not AS FAST as it use to be. I mean they are 30mph GT's but it just dosen't feel as fast when you come up on that yellow light >G<.
I still think that Brighton run is the best there is...
boy do I miss the R32 and R40/42's on the D.....:(
Yep, I remember when the R-32s first appeared on the D in December 1967. They zoomed along the CPW jaunt effortlessly.
How about the runaway stretch from 59th to 42nd Sts. on an A? Doesn't matter what cars you're on; even the R-44s manage to gather some speed.
Right now overall the IRT probably has the best express runs, either due to speed restrictions (E, F in Queens), the model of car normally used on the line (R-68s on the D and mostly R-44s on the A) or no express track accessibility (Ye olde BMT Broadway Line).
The 2 & 3 on the West Side and the 4 & 5 along Lexington can still kick it in and go. I just hope the R-142s don't turn out to be the IRT version of the R-68s.
You can say that again. Let's keep our fingers crossed.
I agree totally Redbird...I was in town last Fri did the #2 uptown on Redbird#9010-WOW! Great speed, a NICE breeze from the front window, what more can you ask from life? Also has it been THAT long since Ive been in town, or is the Brighton express faster than its been in YEARS?? Another great speed run is the D on the flying jumction from 59th to 7th Ave another surprisingly fast run..even with an R68...
Overall. I must say I was very impressed on Fri with the service. Also the stations up on Lenox Ave look terrific! Not to mention the THRILL of swiping my FunPass and seeing only the word "GO" on the read-out- I figured all my rides were less than 60 cents a ride!! (Maybe they should let you know how many times youve used it-would be GREAT public relations!
Hello! My name is Tony and I am a rabid, frothing train buff. I live in the Bronx and have ridden every mile of subway track. I live right near the Pelham Parkway station on the 5 (aka. The New York, Boston and Westchester.) I want to congratulate Mr. Dave Pirmann for thinking up this site. I'd like to get his e-mail address and speak to him to find out how to submit stuff to the site. I welcome e-mail from train buffs and if someone could e-mail me and tell me where train buffs chat I'd appreciate it. If anyone has AOL, I sometimes create a chat under special interests called "Train Buffs." Come by! My favorite book is "Tracks of the New York City Subway" by Peter Dougherty (aka. brakeman.) Thanks!
On the front (main) page of NYC Subway Resources, you can click on "leave feedback" and leave a message if you want to contribute.
That's how I got my start.
Wayne
You can drop me a line at the email address above or at subway@nycsubway.org or at... well, one of about 50 different email addresses. :) Glad to have you aboard and any contributions are welcome.
-Dave
This morning at 4:55, I boarded a D Brooklyn Bound train @ Broadway Lafyette (#2553). We stopped halfway between Broadway And Grand, the Motorman came out of his cubby, openened the door pannel, and let 5 workers board. My question Is this: There is a Keyhole Above and right of the door, as well as one on the side of the seats. Why did he go to the trouble of opening the door pannel, and throwing a big lever instead of just opening the door by using the keyhole?
The crew door is located at the #2 end of the car on both sides. These can be opened with a key from inside or outside. The operator was operating from the #1 end and likely felt it was easier to spot the train and open the door manually. Most track gangs do not carry door keys.
While riding on a Queens bound #7 a signal worker (i guess) seemed to have to ask the motorman (well-train operator, since she was a woman) to drop him off at a signal tower. She had to lift up a seat a throw a lever which seemed to just unlock the doors, since they really didnt open up all the way and they had to be pushed open by the signal operator. When he got off the train she pushed back the lever and the door closed. My question is, do tower operators need to board a suspific train to get off at a tower location, or do they just board the next train on their way and ask the operator to let them off at the tower?
Thanks
Tom
There are certain locations where trains are required to make stops to drop off and pick up employees (by bulletin). The 111th St tower is one of them. That same bulletin requires that stops other than those specifically mentioned in the bulletin, be okayed by Control Center prior to making them. During the midnight hours, this is rarely followed.
PATH also has employee stops, many of which have a mini high platform and are marked "employee stop". One stop, near their maintenance Facillity has a flashing signal "Pick up" before the stop to allow the train operator to stop. Like NYCT, PATH also drops off track workers at other places.
There are several employee stops that get a lot of business: HCMF(The maintenance facillity), Sub 8 (their substation 8), and their running repair stop near the tunnel portal( and that one has a sign telliong employees no pickup between certain hours and that WTC trains wont pick-up, and yes- I have been on WTC trains that did stop and during "those hours"
**disclaimer- this post isd based on daily riding of PATH as an employee of NYCT and not official or unofficial info from PATH***
I pick the best Line is #1, #3, and #6 Line on "A" Division.
I see you got it! (the coloring technique, that is) Have fun!
Just watch out you don't turn your whole message into color (I did that once and sometimes when I use italics I forget to turn them off)
Wayne
On A Division
The Best: I pick the No. 5 line because they run the Oldest cars in the systerm and a Super Exp in the Bronx, Manhattan, and Brooklyn during rush hours and on an early saturday morning the No. 5 Express runs half light to Bowling Green.
The Worst: I pick the No. 1/9 Line because its a boring R 62 Local line and lots of homeless.
that is true during rush hours, the #5 is the best express train in the system.........
Best lines:
IRT: 2, 4, 5, 7. Love those Redbirds!
IND: A. My license plates don't say 8AVEXP for nothing, just as long as the cars are R-38s.
BMT: Ask me again when Broadway express service is restored.
Honorable mention to the Q because of the slant R-40s. I still consider the Q a BMT route, even though it runs on IND trackage in Manhattan, albeit "temporarily".
Worst lines:
Oh, just about any local route or one which uses R-68s. Get 'em off the D!
I agree with you... I wish the "Q" would return to Broadway. I remember i was in high school around 95, TA was doing work on the MAnhattan Bridge. The "Q" ran local in Brooklyn and then went on the Broadway line. I would cut class just to take the "Q" from Brooklyn and reminisce while it sped along Broadway to Queensbridge? Do anybody know that the "Q" will be express or local in Queens and which terminal will it go to?
The Q will probably run to Continental Ave., but nothing has been etched in stone yet.
Okay, when will Broadway express service be restored?
What's the condition of Canal Street? Last I heard the tracks were ripped up and the station itself was like a disaster area. Have they put in tracks? Or at least fixed it up? Before they run express trains along Broadway, they need to repair Canal Street, and of course open the bridge...
I was there February 11. The station condition is pretty bad when you first look at it, but when you look a little further, you can see that the damage is pretty much on the surface. There IS a serious water leak somewhere above the station, which has to be stopped before permanent renovations can begin. The trackbed does not appear to be damaged, though the tracks are absent. The walls need refinishing and the ceiling needs repainting (with a coat of waterproof primer first). Once the source of the water has been cut off, there is probably going to be some concrete work done, then the renovations can begin. They'll probably use panel tile in order to speed things along.
Wayne
What happened to Canal St.? I was there in November and it was fine. Was there some kind of accident?
We're talking about the currently-unused Broadway Line station, the one that's used as a passageway for transfers between the J/M/Z line and the N/R line. The other stations in the complex are in good shape except for the #6 station, which is still undergoing a facelift and has evidence of construction on the southbound side. There was no accident, just slow decay due to water and neglect. Fortunately, it is all repairable.
Wayne
I was there just last night, coming from the NY Div. ERA meeting. (With Giuliani's fencing off of the whole City Hall complex, the J line is virtually cut off from that area, so I took the R to Canal)
The northbound track was replaced, and the southbound trackbed has been completely removed. There is new tunnel lighting, (you can clearly see that they've built some room where the tunnel contines West, as it originally was planned to), but aside from that, it looks like the work is still halted. I don't know why.
When the MTA going to restart building the Second Ave line?
When Guliani Flies.
-Hank
Who knows, we all may be in that big subway yard in the sky when they start the Second Ave line.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
I wouldn't be too optimistic, but I wouldn't be too pessimistic either. Supposedly the MTA doesn't want to have it in the next five year capital plan. Look for them to start the 63rd St. to 125th St. segment after that. They may have to have at least that much done before the LIRR 63rd Street connection dumps more people into Grand Central (around 2010?).
When people start to get broken noses from having their face pressed against the glass on a Lexington Avenue Express.
The Twelth of Never.
When one or more of the following happens::
1. The pope gets married.
2. Doc Brown builds a new time machine and goes back in time to 1929 and helps avert the Stock Market crash. Then again, he said that unnecessary time travel would only cause further disruption of the space time continuum...
3. When hell freezes over.
4. The UConn men's basketball team actually makes it to the Final Four (which they never have, BTW) and wins it all.
5. George Steinbrenner sells the Yankees.
6. The new and improved Manhattan Bridge opens.
7. When the sun rises in the west.
Get the picture?
New York's inability to do anything has to do with a particular group of people who have been politically influential for the past 30 years. They have to die eventually.
We've had our share of influential politicians in Colorado. One of them was former governor Dick ("the elderly have a duty to die") Lamm. He vowed to "drive a silver spike" through the I-470 project, saying it would cause overgrowth in southwest metro Denver. The highway was finally built as a scaled-down C-470, at a cost ten times higher than what it would have been. I could go on, but that's enough. I didn't think too much of him, anyway.
You don't want to know about Pat Schroeder, aka Mary Poppins.
> 5. George Steinbrenner sells the Yankees.
He may as well now that they traded away my man Wells. Pfeh. And I was hoping to see him pitch opening day too.
-Dave
They will never build the Second Avenue Line. It took 20+ years to build the 63rd Street Tunnel and now they will connect it to 36th Street Interlocking on the Queens Line. It took 20+ years to build the Archer Avenue Extension and the Super Express tracks to connect the two were never built. We all know sections of the Second Avenue Subway are built including two tracks on the upper and lower levels of Lexington Avenue station on the 63rd Street line that are behind the wall from revenue service.
DON'T HOLD YOUR BREATHE, IT WON'T HAPPEN!!!
I still remain cautiously optimistic. When I lived in New Jersey, a lot of people thought that the Hudson-Bergen light rail line would never be built. Now it is being done. It is big project - not as expensive as the Second Avenue line would be, of course - but people in New Jersey wanted it, the politicians supported it, and NJ Transit made the commitment to build it. When New Yorkers start realizing that New Jersey can get things done, then they will start demanding it too.
> When I lived in New Jersey, a lot of people thought that
> the Hudson-Bergen light rail line would never be built. Now it is
> being done.
Yeah but the NIMBY's in Hoboken and Jersey City have caused changes to the original route plans that make it essentially useless. In Jersey City it will run along Grand Street which is pretty much light industrial and vacant space, instead of up Jersey Ave. which is the center of the reviving Van Vorst residential/business district. In Hoboken, it will run along the West Side which will do nothing to allieviate the massive traffic/parking problems along Washington Street, or bring people to the Washington St. business district. The light rail will only get as far northeast as the Hoboken Terminal -- already served from Jersey City by rail (the PATH).
As a resident of the Jersey City Van Vorst district and frequent Hoboken-goer I don't see myself ever using the HBLR except as a railfan. I'll continue to drive to Hoboken and circle around for parking.
-Dave
It's true that the original plan to go along the east side of Hoboken (River Street, etc.) was the better idea. But Hoboken could encourage development on the west side after the line opens. There isn't much over there now because there never was any access by public transit.
The area around Essex Street and Liberty Harbor in Jersey City could also be developed once it has access. For example, the Jersey City Medical Center is supposed to build a new facility next to one of the stations. The land for the new medical center is - if I remember correctly - southwest of the intersection of Jersey Avenue and Grand Street.
Wouldn't complain too much about NJ transport investment. At least you have some. Here in NY, we invest in empty hospitals and richer doctors and hospital administrators. The future of the 2nd Avenue subway is being decided in Albany, where the Governor wants to cut NY's hospital payments from the richest in the country to the richest in the country, and the Greater New York Hospital Association is crying poverty and fighting like hell.
This is unreal. How far "west" in Hoboken will it run? I used to
live there, and feared for my life the one time I decided to check
out the other side of town and rollerbladed too far west. (I lived
on Clinton, so I wasn't totally naive, either.)
And wasn't that whole snack bar/kiosk/whatever put up in Sinatra
Park with expectations of an eventual trolley stop?
-Lee
It will run about as far west in Hoboken as you can go - along the Conrail line at the base of the palisades. Conrail (actually CSX) will remove freight service from the line first. There will be two or three stations along the way.
Is Sinatra Park next to Stevens Institute? Whatever, the route along River Street was rejected by the mayor and Hoboken city council. I should have followed the story, but I never heard what the objections of the residents were.
Unless Hoboken is developed further west, what a sad waste that is.
What's back there?!?
As best as I can recall, Stevens is about a block north and up the
hill from Sinatra park.
There is one public housing project next to the tracks. The rest of the route has warehouses and small factories. There may be some vacant land too. The residential areas generally start about two blocks away from the line. I'd have to go through the area again to get more details of where everything is.
When I visited the site two weeks ago, the line was being built down Essex St, three blocks west of Grand.
I understand it will open on February 31, 2111.
In other words, it may never open.
I'm being optimistic- I'm hedging my bets that some form of it may be open around 2020 or so.
Wayne
never mind and the city hall is wasting every one time and i don''t like it well they just spent it on jerk
In the NY Daily News of Thursday February 18, page 8, a new born baby girl was found in a bag at the 138th Street and the Grand Councourse station at 1pm on Wednesday February 17. Two men found the little baby peeking out of a canvas gym bag on the southbound plarform of the Nos. 4 and 5 train at the above station.
This two men found the police who took the baby to a nearby hospital.
Baby is doing good and weighs in at 6 pounds and 11 ounces.
This should show that their are good people here in NYC who look out for their fellow people.
I also heard about this on WINS Radio before i left for work last night.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
I do hope she is doing all right! It's too bad her mom didn't try and
reach out for help...Oh well, the Good Lord was watching over her.
They should name her Mary Helen because she was found at the Mott Haven station...(or something else with the "MH" initials)
Good luck and God speed to her.
Wayne
In the NY Post for Thursday February 18, page 22, is an article on a subway ticket blitz against fare evasion and other petty offenses helped produce a record breaking 3 million dollar windfall for the TA last year, records show.
Summonses issued by transit police jumped 41 percent in 1998, to 203,648 from 144,569 in 1997. Summonses range from 25 dollars to 100 dollars each rose 58 percent, to 5.5 million dollars from 3.48 million dollars.
After the good folks of Sub Talk read the article, your thoughts are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
They should go after people that feel like holding the subway door for everyone. Yes i follow the rule book my calling Control Center after 1 Min other wise I hear "Downtown Local where did lose your time". Then the riders wonder why trains are late.
(Sorry for the Bad Pun)
Wednesday night I took the 8:30 Staten Island Ferry to South Ferry and got on a Brooklyn bound N around 9pm. From that point on it was HELL on Wheels.
Signals from Lawerence Street (Metro Tech) Through 7th Ave (I switched to the D) were all RED with TRIP UP. Every train had to call Command to Keyby. The biggest signal failure I have ever been in. They had to hand flag trains past the "No KeyBy" signals (one just as you enter Dekalb on the N).
We would slowly crawl and stop (I assume the Train Operator is calling command) then inch up stop start until the trip went down. The crawl some more to the next signal. Never heard a more happy Conductor when we got to Prospect Park.
BTW, what are the rules for keying by and NO KEYBY signal??
On my way home from work every day, there always seems to be long line at the token booth at 15th street. Why? Why would anyone wait in line for five minutes when there is absolutely no line for the automatic turstiles OR the four token vending machines right there?
Are they paying cash? Why pay the rip-off $1.60 fare when they could stick a few bucks in one of the token machines and get tokens for $1.15 each?
Are they flashing monthly or weekly passes? Why wait in line when all the turnstiles have card-readers?
Are they buying tokens? Why wait in line when there are token machines right there?
So what on earth are those people waiting in line for?
Does anyone know? There must be a reason.
Maybe folks are there to buy their tokens to go home every day and just don't take care of it one fell swoop earlier. You'll notice they took out that walls that partioned it off from the rest of the concousre to give customers more room.
Jack, I think Rich is talking about the small booth right at the 15th St el stop, not the "office" at the concourse corner across from the post office (the one you're referring to with no walls). If this is what Rich is referring to, I don't understand the lines either. Maybe these folks don't realize the "wall-less" sales office is close by and offers a quicker alternative. ???
I think the Septa token booths are so stupid. Why aren't these token booths like New York City where you do not need exact change. I think Septa's mentality is backwards. I have been almost stranded (Cecil B. Moore Ave) because the token booths are out of order. The token booths sometimes sell tokens when this happens and sometimes not. The system is stupid too. I buy tokens and then must open the package and deposit into the turnstile, or the loose change must be deposited inot different slots at the booth then the dollar. That whole system is stupid and makes no sense whatsoever.
Here's one example of how backwards the system is:
At 34th street, there are two booths. One sells tokens, the other does not. There is no signage whatsoever to indicate this. The one that does NOT sell tokens is open during all hours that the system operates. The one that sells tokens is only open during business hours, so it does not open until morning rush hour is over, and closes right when the afternoon rush hour is just getting started.
And there are no token machines, either. So if you are one of the many people who use the system to, gasp, GET TO AND FROM WORK, you are screwed if you didn't buy a token downtown earlier. You'd have to have exact change for the $1.60 fare, which is 45¢ more than a token, and if all you have is a five, that's what you're paying...
Now that's customer service...
I agree with most of Jason's points but let's not too carried away with the whole system being stupid - it is different from NYC, I'll admit, but...
However, as Rich noted, the logic is backward. It doesn't seem to make sense that cashiers (as they're called here in Phila) can't sell tokens, since they're already in the booths. There is a concern about crime, robbery, etc, but there are ways to deal with this. I think the real issue is probably rooted with good ol' TWU 234 and its limitations on what the cashiers can and cannot do. SEPTA doesn't get too much credit from me either for its refusal to think "out of the box" even though it says it's "serious about change".
Another dopey move - visit 30th St el/subway surface stop sometime. There are two cashier booths there, but one only sells tokens/passes when it's open. Thus, you can buy the fare instruments here, but then you must retreat and go thru the turnstiles or the other cashier line to enter the station. I missed a train once because of this, when the line at the cashier was very long and there was no line at the other booth (which was the sales booth). Why the "salesperson" couldn't handle normal fare collection AND sell stuff is beyond me.
Yes, I was speaking of the booth right at the entrance to the station, not the Sales Office. Although that brings up another good point - the token machines are not very efficient for people buying a lot of tokens - like a month's supply. So maybe that's what people are doing - buying large quantities of tokens. BUT the Sales Office is just around the corner in the concourse, and is much more efficient to deal with.
So why the lines? Oh well - a mystery maybe.
I had my own version of SEPTA logic yesterday morning. I go to the Sales Office about once every two weeks to buy tokens. I stopped yesterday to buy a couple of 10-packs and a Zone 2 off-peak train ticket (I was treating myself to a train ride home yesterday, since I had to leave early and get home in a hurry, two things that, if I try to do with my usual "express" bus, something manages to go wrong!).
The clerk at the Sales Office instructed me that individual train tickets were not available there, only tokens and passes. Thus, I had to trek up to Suburban Station and wait in another line to buy a ticket. I don't know why the "Sales Office" has that name!
By the way, the reason the glass walls came down, allegedly, was due to the crowding in there. It does get a bit busy there especially when monthlies go on sale. It will get crowded there the end of this week, as monthlies and weeklies will both be available. This is why I try to time my visits accordingly.
R33/36WFs blink on and off
"R33/36WFs blink on and off"
Oh no! Not again!
Just don't go there. Let's stop this one before it starts.
I don't normally say things like this, but: Hey guy, we had enough of this last time. Come back when you have a clue, okay?
-Dave
Why don't you blink off? In other words, don't go away mad, just go away.
Give it a rest. Please.
I've seen many other subway systems in a world - I meen Europe
And there is one thing which places NYC Subway on the first position
It is so good ordered and organised...
I've seen one Subway which is most beatiful (Warsaw) but... This is not even a Subway System it is a Subway line. Single Subway line.
Maybe we can start to create a list
Most beatiful
Maybe not bigest
But Most danger
most amazing
most most
I would like to suggest another listing - most expensive. I think New Yorkers are so lucky because the fares are so cheap if not the cheapest.
NY fares are not the cheapest if you look at single ride. The DC metro is only 1.15 within city limits.
However, NY has the cheapest all day pass, although it's the only all day pass which potential could only be used for 3 hours.
This is only comparing American fares of course. Fares are considerably less expensive in other countries.
Baltimore's fare is a flat $1.35 a ride. (No transfers) A day pass, good until midnight and sold on all buses and Ticket machines is $3.00 and good for unlimited riding.
Such a deal!!
What you don't pay in fares you pay in taxes. I'm not sure but I'll bet that with the recent ridership gain NYC is the cheapest per trip.
Yeah, but only 50%. The other 50% or more comes out of the farebox. and the farebox is getting more, thanks to the revamped fare structure. BTW, an Day Pass with more than 3 rides is less than $1.00 per ride.
As I said, Such a deal!!!
Come to London for sky high Fares. One day Travelcard,(not the whole syste) $6.00 Card for whole system and bought before 9.30 am $12.00 approx. Not exactly a cheap days riding. The seven day New York card is an absolute bargain.
Simon
I would put Philly's sytem in the boat with small-yet-delightful subway systems.
We have above and underground urban light rail, a typical four-track, IND-style subway right up to the full mezzanine at Walnut-Locust,
we have an unusual broad-gauge, underruning subway/el and a commuter subway/bridge line. Along with the suburban rails(though expensive, I still like the RR) we have a nice thing going here.
Now if the system operating these trains(SEPTIC, I mean SEPTA) would get their act together, you might even see a Philadelphia Subway Resources(yeah, right).
Hi,
Being too lazy to look back and see who all was interested in the hats idea, this is the status; Jason green-lighted the use of the token logo- I can provide it in BMP format in a variety of sizes so an estimate can be made on getting it made into a patch. I suspect it would be cheaper to have patches made then get the patches sewn onto a cap rather than get the embroidery done right on the cap itself. But I have no idea.
My suggestion of the hat logo would be like this
S U B W A Y
www.nycsubway.org
It's more readable than the existing "www.nycSUBWAY.org" logo. Or, just the "SUBWAY" logo and ditch the URL part. We can still identify ourselves with just the tokens.
So that's the deal. Can the person who has contacts in the patch / hatmaking business let me know who they are and a rough idea of the estimate?
IMHO, if it costs $10 to get the patch made (each) and the hats and the sewing on of the patches costs say $7.50 retail, I think people would still ante up $20 for a subway cap. Am I wrong?
-Dave
I'm up for it.
Dave -
I'll contact you offline about the hats. Doing it directly on the hat would probably be cheaper than as a patch (when you figure in the cost of the hat and having the patch sewn on). I need the following information, which you can be gathering before I contact you:
1. Estimate of about how many hats will be needed
2. .gif file with the desired logo
3. Means of paying for all of this (no supplier in the embroidery business - at least none that I know about - will do anything more than give an estimate without the money up front)
Please note that I will be glad to obtain an estimate and, once consensus has been reached, place the order, but I will not be responsible for any of the financials or distribution!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Put me down for one Dave. No one over here will know what it is. I will waer it when in NY
Simon Billis
I'll take one!
I'm definitely in. I may take two.
I'll take one. Even though nobody in Baltimore will know what it is.
I'll take one....
My Girlfriend Will Hate It,
Oh Well
I'll take two, mine will wear it willingly :)
-Hank
Sign me up!
I'll take one. I know for sure it will make my girlfriend nuts.
Me too! If it will annoy my wife, so much the better ;-)
Thats the point Dan, you never know who in Baltimore is a fellow Subtalkee and when I visit you in Baltimore I'll know its you.
BTW, would it be cheaper to just make a patch and we choose what hat to put it on to make things simpler.
I still think we'd be better off getting patches. Like Fernando said, the patches could be sold individually and people could put them on other things, like jackets, backpacks, camera bags, etc. Still, as an item to sell i think the hat is a better idea than (e.g.) a silkscreened t-shirt. Hats are one size fits all. Less overhead to start up such an enterprise.
-Dave
Patches can be done as well ... they would cost nearly as much as a hat, however (blank hats are relatively cheap in bulk), so if there's a desire for patches as well as hats, Dave, let me know. I'll get estimates for both.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I certainly intend to wear mine in the Wash., DC Metro area. I cureently wear my NY Yankee cap.
I will wear mine while running R4/R7A 800/1440 and TARS 631 at the Seashore Trolley Museum!
How could I forget? And IRT Gibbs Car 3352 as well. (However, it's currently side-lined with brake valve and other mechanical issues... hopefully I can raise some funds for it this season so that it can get some time in the shop.)
And when you do operate that IND train, I'll be perched on the step plates in spirit, grasping the trigger boxes.
Hey Dave! I'm down with it. I'll take 2 hats for $40.00
Dave,
Sounds like a geat Idea. Just be careful with the tokens, especially the "Y" one. You know that the MTA has been licensing everything.
That is why you can get Henley T shirts with the 15 cent Y token as buttons (they are officially licensed).
Suggestion: Why not do some designs and have us vote on which one we think would be the best.
(One way or the other count me in for one).
I doubt the graphics would be detailed enough to be considered a licensing issue - other systems used a Y also and the border won't be legible (unless the embroidery folks can do more detail than I think).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Sounds like a plan. Put me down for one, maybe two.
You da maa-aa-nnn!!
Count me in for one, too.
I'm not sure about your time frame but if you're looking for a wider audience of traction fans, the East Penn Traction Club 1999 National Trolley Meet is April 30th & May 1st, 1999 in southern NJ and I'm already registered to have a table there ... if you are considering retail sales and want space at my table, lemme know ....
--Mark
What about 2nd Avenue subway propaganda, hats, T-shirts, etc? We need to get the word out!
All those on the Lex Ave lines should hand out pamphlets to the riders, the people don't know they want it!
Put me down for one! Just the thing to go with my "Slant R40" T-Shirt.
Wayne /MrSlantR40\
I KNEW it! You had to have a slant R-40 T shirt of some sort. Is it one-of-a-kind? I wonder if I could get my hands on an R-10 shirt...
Of course, if and when (hopefully more if than when) the slant R-40s are retired, you'll need a slant R-40 crying towel.
I had the guy at the photo lab blow up the picture of #4408 at Broadway Junction and slap it on a T-Shirt. It says at the top
"Slant R40 Fan Club" and "Charter Member" below it.
Wayne
That's cool. Remember when I suggested having all those fan clubs (R-1/9, R-10, R-32, etc.)? Sounds as though you took me up on it!
P. S. Do you have any photos of slant R-40s when they were new; i. e., minus all the hardware up front?
Alas, no. My photo gallery actually dates from August 20, 1997! My Dad may have a photo or two dating back to the 60s or 70s, but my first good Slant photo was of #4258 taken on August 20, 1997. I have a few DC Metro shots dating back to the early and mid 80s
Wayne
I can't believe that you've been a railfan and trainspotter worthy of the title since the 60s and didn't once take a picture until 1997?? Wow. :)
-Dave
Some of us are "born again" railfans. I can assure that it does get worse the older you get. It also gets very expensive with twice yearly trips to New York and buying expensive computers so you can subscribe to subtalk. But its all worth it.
The most popular "hobby" in the USA is gardening. Gardeners can spend hundreds, if not thousands of dollars a year. The most popular individual "sport" is golf. Golfers can spend hundreds, if not thousands of dollars chasing a little ball around.
I have nothing against gardening and golf; gardeners nor golfers. It's just that neither of those interest me.
As a railfan, I'm happy to spend some money on computer connections, rail tickets, air fare to get to other cities for riding, visiting museums, and attending conventions; and that which "costs" me the most each year: donations to the Seashore Trolley Museum in terms of labor hours, contributed services, and hard cash supporting our worthy cause.
Bottom line: every individual gets to make a choice how to spend his/her disposable income for personal satisfaction.
Please don,t get me wrong. Like yourself I am a member of several Railway Societys here in the UK. The point I was making is that the older I get the more I find I am spending on my main hobby and interest which has now extended to international dimensions. It gives me a great deal of fun and pleasure which has been made more enjoyable by subway.org.
I agree with you Simon! I have traveled extensively as well, and even plunked down the cash to ride the Eurostar between Paris and London... it was well worth it! It's great having the perspective of urban rail systems such as London, Paris, etc. when commenting on your "home" systems (NYC and Boston are mine), but I've ridden on most, if not all of the rapid transit systems in the US. I love my hobby and I'm greatful that I have a few dollars to spend enjoying it.
Here, here. I've run up a national debt on American Flyer trains over the last few years. People have told me there are worse things one can spend their money on; in fact, some have even suggested this could be thought of as an investment. On the other hand, none of my subway artifacts ended up putting a major dent in my wallet, and that includes my IND sign box. I'd love to set it in a wall someday and wire up the signs for illumination.
I get the feeling Wayne was busy enough writing down car numbers, so I'm willing to cut him some slack. That's OK. My love affair with the subway began in 1965, and I didn't take my first subway photos until 1993. So far, I've taken a total of four pictures, one of which depicts the "Downtown Express Trains" placard at the IRT Times Square station. It's a good thing I did; that placard is gone now.
P. S. Say, Wayne, how did you manage to get car numbers for every single car in any train? Or do you just write very fast? Even to this day, I like to watch the train I just got off of pull out of the station; in the past, I would count the number of cars and later on, identify contract numbers for each car.
Let me qualify that somewhat - I have been riding the subway and doing trainspotting since 1969, all the while collecting data about the trains and stations. I have been keeping these records all along. The photography bug bit me in 1997. I have some photographs that predate 1997, but nowhere near the volume that I have since accumulated. Then there were the "lost years"...that's a whole other issue. Fortunately, we've come out of the tunnel and into the daylight.
Wayne
Put me down for two too! I'll wear 'em to work at BART...if nothing else it'll get a reaction from my Manager...who grumps off whenever I wear in my MTA logoed shirt I have with the following signage: E Downtown and Queens ; and J Manhattan and Queens via Williamsburgh Bridge.
The "Ghostbusters" firehouse on Houston St,
Is it better reached by the 1/9 or either of the IND subway lines?
Sorry, but I gotta know!
When are the new IRT cars coming? I thought that they should have been out around this time? If anybody got info let me know something?
Do you think that they will overhaul the R62/62A's and put electronic destination signs on the side of the cars?
I would gather that these are the cars that are to replace those wonderful redbirds I ride on the #7 Flushing Line?! What a sad day when that happens. Believe it or not, there are several of us New Yorkers who actually enjoy riding these beautiful trains from the 1960s/70s. I have met a few of them while riding the #7 train in the morning over the past several years.
Francine
[I would gather that these are the cars that are to replace those wonderful redbirds I ride on the #7 Flushing Line?! What a sad day when that happens. Believe it or not, there are several of us New Yorkers who actually enjoy riding these beautiful trains from the 1960s/70s. I have met a few of them while riding the #7 train in the morning over the past several years.]
Not all of the Redbirds will be replaced right away. It probably will take a few years at least before they're all gone.
You're right, the Redbirds do have a certain charm to them that's lacking on the R-44s and later car types. If it weren't for their problems with corrosion (look below the door sills to see what I mean), the Redbirds might be good for many years to come.
Pete, I'll pay attention this evening on my trip back home. This is sad to hear that there is so much erosion at door sills. I guess the cars get a little drafty during winter months. Honestly, I haven't noticed. Still, I believe these cars could last a few more years despite the cosmetics. They ride great. Gee- I wonder what the MTA will do with all the working parts and electrical systems. It's a real shame to simply throw away/scrap perfectly working equipment.
Francine
Not all of the Redbirds have visible corrosion problems, but the TA has decided to replace all of them. As I mentioned, this fortunately won't happen overnight. But it will be a sad day when the last one rides off into the sunset (literally, as Naporano's scrap yard is west of the city!)
While you are riding, notice the knocking and banging coming from the ends of the cars. That indicates significant wear in the draw bars and trunion bolts that hold the couplers on. I rode the #7 line last Thursday evening (to Corona) and was amazed at the deterioration in this area.
As for the working parts, we'll likely remove some of the master controllers and group switch boxes as well as some of the air parts. Some door operators will likely be retained. As for the HVAC components, they'll likely be scrapped as the B division cars use a different arrangement.
I don't believe that all redbirds will be scrapped. It's likely that 10 -15 trains will need to be retained for service, even after all of the 142s are delivered.
By the way, a technical point: The condition of the car body is caused by corrosion and not erosion..........
I've noticed that transit agencies retire cars at different ages. The Arrow IIs at NJ Transit lasted for about twenty-two years, the Orange Line cars in Boston for about thirty, and the Newark PCCs for over fifty. Is there a standard age at which railcars should be retired, or does it vary because of maintenance, operating conditions, original construction quality, number of overhauls, etc.?
[I've noticed that transit agencies retire cars at different ages. The Arrow IIs at NJ Transit lasted for about twenty-two years, the Orange Line cars in Boston for about thirty, and the Newark PCCs for over fifty. Is there a standard age at which railcars should be retired, or does it vary because of maintenance, operating conditions, original construction quality, number of overhauls, etc.?]
There really is no standard age. It all depends on a variety of factors, the ones which you've noted plus, of course, money. New York's subway cars have lasted for up to 50 years in some cases, such as the Lo-Vs and some BMT Standards; on the other hand, the R30s barely made it to age 30.
The R30s were put out to pasture early because they couldn't be air-conditioned. If they were left as they were, they could still be running today, but to A/C the R30s would have made them overweight. Ditto for the R10s - they'd surely still be running if allowed to stay as non A/C.
The R32s should make it to their golden anniversary in 2014.
Wayne
That is definitly a possibility, especially if the MTA decides not to go for the additional 112 car option of the R143's. All of the current order is expected to go on the L, which means cars on the E,C and even some of the A will stay there.-Nick
Based on the problems the MTA has had, mainly with the trucks or some of its new cars over the past 25 years, putting the Redbirds completely out to pasture before the R-142s have proven themselves in revenue service is probably asking for trouble, especially considering the incrase in passenger load the News and Post reported today. Just think back to the mix-and-match on the B division when the R-46s fell apart and try to imagine what the Lex would be like if the same thing happened a couple of years from now.
If they want to keep some Redbirds when the R-142's arrive, is there enough place in the yards?
I don't know, but I did hear now that ALL of the redbirds are to be stored somewhere until the 142's prove themselves.
Also i heard that the 143's would be broken in on the A. So the Eastern Div. still won't have anything brand new. :-(
Also, I know where the new cars will be tested. I live near Pelham Parkway on the Dyre Ave. line, and they are restoring the south-bound express track. I heard it will be used to test the new stuff. I will miss the Redbirds. They were the cars I took my first ride on. I will miss them dearly.
I have heard the same thing about the new tracks on the Dyre line. They will serve as the proving grounds for the 142's. There is another benefit. When ever there is a problem on the Dyre ave line, the whole thing shuts down. Trains are turned at 180st, the train crews get no break and the customers can't get to there destinations.
When the work is finshed, train will be able to run around the problem and thru to Dyre ave.
For those who have Peter Doughertys book Tracks of the NYC Subway look at page's 1 and 2 about the tracks on the Dyre Ave line #5 train, where the new 142's are to be tested.
There is a explantion about those tracks, Y3 and Y4 tracks which these new trains will be tested.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
In actuality, not many subway cars made it to 50 years, although many came close. Nearly all of the Gibbs Hi-Vs lasted 50 years; three of them put in 53 years. A handful of BMT standards lasted 50 years on an individual basis. The only Lo-Vs which could have had a chance at half a century were the Steinways which spent their last days on the 3rd Ave. el, depending on when they were originally delivered. I'm not referring to the World's Fair Lo-Vs; they lasted 30 years.
I have no doubt the Triplex units would have easily served for 50 years and then some, had they been kept. They might have set a Nolan Ryan-type record for longevity, had it not been for the standardization movement in anticipation of the Chrystie St. connection.
It would be nice if the air horns could be sold in some sort of auction. That way, the horns could somehow be retrofitted in automobiles.
I understand it'll require 35 VDC to do that, so a DC inverter from 12 VDC to 35 VDC might be required...?
Those horns could help in dealing with Miami's traffic.
The horns on the redbirds are straight pneuphonic horns. They require no electrical connection or electrical source. However, they do require much air. I'm not quite sure of the volume of air required but I can tell you that under 70 PSI, they are not heard. So unless you are driving an 18 wheeler, the horns would likely end up collecting dust in your garage. Perhaps some enterprising individual will take a hundred or so and brass plate them and sell then for charity.......
I had a scout leader who led an Explorer group that did Scuba Diving. he had a 5-chime air horn that he claimed came from a Pennsy E unit. hooked it up to a scuba tank, which he refilled as necessary. It was a real blast (pun intended) using that thing as we came through the Battery Tunnel. :)
-Hank
Yeah, it's fun to blow a horn in a tunnel. I do that when driving on I-70 in the Rocky Mountains. There's a short tunnel just east of Idaho Springs, and I'll always blow my car horn while going through it. The Eisenhower Tunnel is another story.
There are after-market car horns which are pretty loud. I remember hearing a "Here Comes the Bride" rendition during my Saturday school days at Annunciation School in Williamsburg. No doubt the car was cruising down Metropolitan Ave.
How about the horns on the R-1/9s and R-10s? They sounded an octave higher than the ones on today's cars.
Hi, Francine. Your feeling is shared by many of us Subtalkers in regard to the Redbirds, I can assure you. Corrosion is a car's worst enemy. That's one advantage the R-32s have, for instance. Their stainless steel skin stands up to salt and other corrosives much better.
I agree it's a shame to scrap perfectly good equipment, especially if it's not suffering from body rot. There was a post the other day about the BMT Triplex units, or D-types, as they were also called. They were still running great after 37-38 years, with virtually no maintenance, and were prematurely retired supposedly due to a trend toward standardization of equipment.
I must be in the minority around here, but I and a good number of other Conductors I know, can't wait until the Redbirds are history. From my point of view, they are disaters waiting to happen. Last week on the 2, I had received indication for the rear section with someone standing in the door! Luckily, it was a straight platform and I could see them; if it had been someplace like Freeman St or 110/Lenox, there would have been messy human all over the end of the platform.
The redbirds are also too easy for the children (of all ages) to vandalize. Nothing like checking out a car where somebody dropped the gravity latches on closed doors, which tend to jam when the doors are open and closed; or finding the door motors all cut out so that the doors won't open; or coming down White Plains Rd and finding 10 bench seats on the structure from the train ahead.
Several weeks ago, a cab sash fell from an R-38 on Liberty Avenue, critically injuring a pedestrian on the street below. Last week, an arrest was made in the case. The 16 Year Old perp allegedly kicked the window out. Despite the integration of the transit police into the NYPD, the Vandal Squad has done a credible job in keeping vandals in check (Re: major incidents).
The Redbirds are a very basic subway car. They are prone to vandalism because little effort and innovation was put into the design to prevent it. Seats could be held down with tamper-proof screws. Vent windows and cab sashes could be safety wired with aircraft cable so they remain with the car. However, as they say, anyone who thinks something is foolproof underestimates the average fool. So it is also true with vandals. Vandalism can and does take many forms. The R-142s will be more vandal resistant than the Redbirds but surely not vandal proof.
One thing about the r142's is that there will be no more subway scratches on the windows, thanks to special protectors. However, many of you have probably noticed that on the R62's, parts of the stainless steel has scratch marks on it too. My guess is that the R142's stainless steel isn't scratchproof either.-Nick
"Special protectors" for the window glass on R-142s? Any details on how this would work?
This is the mylar they place over the window. It takes the scratch, and then they peel it off and stick on a new one, so they don't have to replace the window.
They are currently using this stuff on the buses. Works pretty well, unless the scratcher is really determined and scratches hard enough to go through the plastic. As for the stainless steel, there's a relatively simple solution: Scratch it more! Get some fine sandpaper, and sand the steel till the vandal scratches disappear. Then you're left with a finish that I belive is called 'burnished' It won't resist scratches, but you sure as hell won't see them. And that's the whole reason these idiots scratch in the first place.
-Hank
For technical reasons, the electronic side signs are feasible only on linked consists. Whether they can be retrofitted is dependent on the number of spare wires in the greenfield cables and electric portions. Based on 1990 prices, to convert each 5-car link of R-62s you'd need:
Ten LCD displays (side Signs) @ $3000 each
Two ODKs keypad controllers @ $600 each
Two SCUs (sign control units) $5000 each
Misc. wires connectors and of course labor.
You are looking at roughly $45 - $50,000 per 5 car unit or $10,000 per car. 420 cars =$4.2 million for that one fleet. Now adjust for inflation. BTW - the prices quoted were approximate prices based on more than 1,000 car sets when the R-44/R-46 were done.
I was advised today that the Transit Museum's Routes Not Built II Tour scheduled for February 28, 1999 has been cancelled.
The reason given was 'the reluctance of the Station Department".
The tour will be replaced by a lecture (given free).
Appropriate refunds will be issued.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the 2nd time in 2 months that the Station Department has caused this tour (actually in January it was a rescheduled Routes Not Built I tour) to have problems. I was told that the Station personnel refused to admit members of the tour into closed areas.
I am sure there are valid reasons for it (sure there are). But if this irks you as much as it irks me I sugguest everyone write a letters to the MTA (E. Virgil Conway) and NYCT (Lawrence Reuter) and complain about the lack of customer focus that is being shown.
The Transit Museum is cancelling a lot of tours lately, ostensibly for "security" reasons (e.g. City Hall tours). It might not be the fault of the Museum itself but perhaps they are not working as closely with the other departments/agencies as they need to be. I suspect Transit Museum membership will decline if this continues. I personally have not gone on a Museum tour in two years. They aren't adding very much new, and many of the tours are ending up cancelled.
-Dave
Whatever happened to the Transit Museums plan to renovate city hall, and open it as part of the museum...did the idea flop, are they still working on it but it will be awhile, or is it coming soon?-Nick
Well right now the New York Police Deportment has taken the City Hall station over because the mayor is afraid of a terrist attack below him. The Police help the No. 6 line train crews in dicharging trains at Brooklyn Bridge.
That is interesting information, but why is the mayor threatened like this? Also, are you sure that its ok to give out that information? I'm not asking this to be mean, I'm just concerned about security.-Nick
It's just paranoia. I find it highly unlikely that any terrorists would bother with City Hall.
Yeah, it's only hizzoner Rudy "nub nuts" Giuliani who is paranoid.
Mayor is afraid????? hahahahahah that is really funny and i don't ever like the mayor because i disagress with him. One thing i never vote for him. Well let me tell you that will never happen and he should be a tough guy. Look what he did to mafia put them in jail for long time. well what i think he wasting his time and he don't know what he doing , he got no respect last week in funeral shooting of black man, Well next time he going to run for senate than he going to lose to Hillary Clintion in 2000 and i alway want to see women run for senate and Mayor Rudy Giuliani you going down baby.
As much as I dislike the mayor, I'd rather have him as our senator than a carpetbagger. But his paranoia is really getting to a lot of people in this city.
-Hank
PS: The MAFIA does not exist. :)
One of my major dislikes re: the Honorable Rudy is that he treats the outer boroughs -- particularly the Great "Republic of Brooklyn" with contempt and a kind of back-handed attitude when it comes to services and development planning.
Doug aka BMTman
Do you get the feeling hizzonor is afraid of his own shadow, or even the sound of his own, shall we say, beefs?
Pardon me, but you guys have lost it!
I live in Jerusalem now, not NY, but I go back a **long** way in NYC --- let me tell you:
Guiliani is the ***BEST*** mayor this city has seen since LaGuardia. Period.
Decency. Fighting crime. Standing up to the exploiters. Speaking forthright on issues of real justice - where others weigh political correctness first.
As a mayor he is WITHOUT PEER.
Well, New York is basically a Democratic city that only elects a Republican mayor when the naitonal Republican party is at seemingly its lowest possible point -- LaGuardia in 1933 after the Roosevelt landslide, Lindsay in 65 after the Johnson landslide, and Guliani in 93 after Clinton's election. In all three cases, Democrats controlled the presidency and both houses on Congress, meaning that if things were screwed up (whether with the Jimmy Walker scandals in the 30s or the high crime rate in the 90s) there were no visible Republicans to blame and in those brief periods, many New Yorkers will hold their noses and vote Republican.
Doing that doesn't necessarily mean things will get better -- Lindsey did far more overall to screw up New York than Dinkins ever did -- but now that some of the problems New York faced back in 1993 have gone away, your seeing a swing back to other topics, some important (the police task force shooting) and some more trivial (Rudy's City Hall paranoia and his earlier crosswalk and street vendor fights)
Come 2001, New York will probably elect a Democratic mayor who will promise to be a "kinder, gentler" Guliani -- that is, keep the crime rate low without being as mean. Whether or not that also would include letting the City Hall barricades down and putting in the new Transit Museum, I'd say if that battle's going to be won, it will have to be fought as part of the 100th anniversary celebration of the IRT in 2004.
Yeah, but do they close the government to the public because they're afraid of terrorism? Do they limit access to certain tourist attractions for fear of a mad bomber?
No.
And the fear of terrorism in Jeruselum is far greater than it is in NYC.
-Hank
Well, first of all the fear of violence in NYC is FAAAAAAAAR greater than Jerusalem, thank G-d (but sorry about NYC of course)... Terrorism is always a wildcard that scares people, but in reality affects very few people - crime is much more everyman's problem.
And that's the connection Hank and J. Lee, the election of these Republicans who apparently liberals (and I use to be one...) have to hold their nose to vote for (their OWN internal "political correctness SuperEgo" at work (what would all my friends say if I dared to think for myself...)), comes on the heels of a big mess left over from the "peak" of liberal rule that precedes them:
*crime
*letting interest groups for non-contributing sectors clean out the
bank account
*intimidation by "politically correct" Stalinists to force their
phony democracy of "any viewpoint you like - that we approve of"
upon society
*disdaining the succesfull classes that provide the money for the City
to have programs for the poor and chasing these groups out (eg: by
letting crime run amock (can't offend those "downtrodden" groups)
* etc, etc
I remember good ole Dinkins. He did nothing for the city and all the liberal productive citizens who also felt compelled by this mindless adherence to archaic political ideas immediately realized he was not a man to reelect, and magically they didn't. Even brainwashing can't stop clear economic and managerial facts after they come to light.
I also remember how he let the murderers of that Jewish boy in Crown Heights get away with it. Why? Because a Jew ACCIDENTALLY caused the death of a minority individual in a car accident.
He let totally unjustified riots rampage in the streets, terrorizing innocent decent good citizens, the Habad Hassidim - one of the few groups with the courage to stay put in a declining area and build it up and contribute to the city, not to flee to the suburbs. And look at their reward!
This is a perfect example of the insane exploitation of plain decent folks in the big cities that has led in dozens of cases to these cities killing the goose that laid the golden eggs.
Your message is political. This is inappropriate to the purpose of this Website.
Your message is bossy - this is inapropriate to the spirit of this
discussion group.
This group often discusses social conditions and political factors with respect to city and subway management.
Well, Ben-Zion, I see you have resurfaced.
Haven't heard from you in awhile.
Although I agree with most about the lame Dinkins administration, it should be pointed out that Yankel Rosenbaum's death is no more David Dinkins' fault than the Rabbi's entourage that ran down the Cato children. To insinuate that Dinkins "let" the riot occur is to be ridiculous and blind to the facts. (I even recall bottles were thrown by youth at Dinkins). The death of Yankel Rosenbaum was the act of a youth with criminal intent. (BTW, Kings County Hospital should also have been held to blame for the shoddy treatment that Rosenbaum received that actually led to his death. His wounds were treatable and considered "non-life threatening" by the medical staff. (It is a known fact that many people who enter KCH for "treatable wounds" often are mis-diagnosed and die as a result of worse, and at first, undetected, medical problems.)
BTW, nor would I hold Giuliani responsible for the death of that street vendor who was shot 41 times at the hands of the police.
And you make Rudy Giuliani seem to be a Mayoral "Superstar". You have left out Mayor Ed Koch as having one of the best Administrations (at least in his first term). Koch's administration turned this city around from financial ruin -- or hadn't you noticed. As well, he was able to LISTEN TO and TALK WITH any and all members of the community. He was a LEADER w/o being an egotistical bully, ala Rudy G.
Obviously, in Koch's later years -- maybe getting too comfortable and laid-back in his role -- many of his subordinates got involved in serious patronage problems and out-right thievary (remember good ol' Donald Manes & Co.?). That was the downfall of Ed Koch -- too cozy for too long (seems to be the downfall for any politico in office for more than two terms).
I know this reply wasn't exactly subway/transit related, but thought it deserved a reply nonetheless.
(Ben-Zion -- whatever happenned to the Brooklyn track-mapping project we discussed?)
Doug
I'm not trying to be bossy. I just saying that the discussion created a spin off into politics and social matters related to the City of New York and crimes committed in the past. The spin off has nothing to do with the subway, subway operations, subway technology, subway history or providing service to the riding public.
There has never been a problem with off-topic messages on this board. There are generally 3 or 4 posts on the tangent, and then it ends. But the only person with any right to say what does and doesn't belong here is the host, and since he has not seen fit to censor the post, there's no reason for anyone to play at being a censor.
-Hank
OK. Let Mr. David Pirmann decide on this political off subject. I read the rules to Subtalk.
The rules clearly say to "Please stick to rapid transit/mass transit topics ONLY".
Hey relax. Politics is extremely influential on such rapid/mass transit topics and I don't see that discussing how politics and transit are related is that far off topic, or even how certain NIMBY factions are preventing necessary expansion, or whatever.
-Dave
David,
The photographs are in the mail of NYCTA signaling and MARTA for the Web Site.
Why not? He has the whole City Hall complex fenced off. The whole area has been cut in half.
City Hall Park is being renovated, and that is the purpose of the fence. The Parks Dept. has installed signs as to the renovation and tempoarary fence.
-Hank
>Well right now the New York Police Deportment has taken the City Hall station over because the mayor is
>afraid of a terrist attack below him. The Police help the No. 6 line train crews in dicharging trains at Brooklyn
>Bridge.
I'm assuming that if someone really wanted to blow up City Hall or something along those lines, there would be ways to do it (I'm not advocating anything here)... the whole "security" thing sounds pretty stupid if you ask me... I'm only jealous because I'm relatively new to the city and haven't seen the City Hall station personally, though.
-Mike
Well, at least the story made it into the Post today, though it's not going to change Rudy's thinking.
Being a Transit Museum Tour Guide, I feel I need to shed some light on this situation. As David P. stated, it's not the Museum's fault that the tours were cancelled. The problem is that there are safety issues that are to be dealt with. These areas for the tours are generally closed to the general public for a good reason; no one knows what lurks behind these walls. It could be anything. It could be an asbestos problem or just a flurry of rats that no one wants to deal with! I don't know if I want to deal with rats on a platform or worry about asbestos dangers. Then again, we really don't know if anyone is living in these tunnels. Remember when Amtrak's Empire Corridor was still abandoned years ago? The homeless were living under here! What are you going to do? Tell them you're a railfan looking around the tunnel? They might see this as an invasion of privacy and do something drastic. What I describe here doesn't necessarily have to be the case, but it's something to think about.
Another to consider is that the TA is not railfan friendly. This is a business, just like baseball (a David Wells trade???). The TA has to worry about their own affairs, not what the Museum wishes. If the reverse were true and the TA was railfan friendly, we'd see more tours, and we'd certainly see more Nostalgia Specials. As it stands, numerous Museum pieces have yet to run on the road! I can't change anything about it. All I can do is wait and see that maybe some of these pieces will come out for a trip, PROVIDED that they are serviced. Cars sitting around Coney Island are in a neglected state. The TA's priorities are getting 6,000 cars ready for the next day. I can't argue the facts because the working class needs their public transportation. You look at the condition that the D-Types at Coney Island are in and you wonder what went wrong. The cars are in sad shape, which is way we won't see a special for much of the year.
The City Hall situation is ridiculous. It not a public access area, but sees an occasional tour. Now I can't even ride around the loop! The Mayor may be right in beefing up security, but what are railfans going to in City Hall? Why in a desserted train station?
If you're dissatisfied with something you should send letters to Conway and Reuter. If our voices our heard, something can be done to improve the customer relations picture.
Tours at the Transit Museum are not to everyone's liking. Maybe they have too many repitious tours. I personally don't see anything wrong, as the Museum's basis for having repitious tours is that a particular tour is popular. They can only accomodate so many people on a tour! But then again, it doesn't hurt to have new tours....
Whatever the case may be I hope all of my friends here won't stop supporting the NY Transit Museum.
Thanks To All,
Constantine Steffan
Many good points Constantine.
Another thing to consider in the TA's negativity to railfans and their concerns -- over the last few years the bureaucratic long-arms of the NYCTA's parent, MTA has been reaching into more and more areas of the TA than ever before.
Back in the seventies there was a more I recall a more "people-friendly" atmosphere at the agency. Does anyone recall the excellent "Diamond Jubilee" celebration in 1979? There were open-house tours of most of the major transit yards (I went to both Coney Island and the BMT 36th street yard exhibits). Since then, I can't think of any other TA related event that went "all out". True, that was done for the 75th Anniversary of the first subway opening, but there is no reason why the TA couldn't do another one of those "open house" (free of charge) tours. I see the only problem as one of security. Obviously, since the past 20 years or so, terrorist activities here and aboard have made all agencies that deal with the public more cautious in their "open-door" policies. Sad, but that's reality folks.
Sigh. I was *really* looking forward to this tour. Where were we supposed to go?
> These areas for the tours are generally closed to the general public
> for a good reason; no one knows what lurks behind these walls. It
> could be anything.
I agree with this statement. However, I was under the impression that museum tour guides or museum personnel went to these areas with RTO or Stations personnel in advance of planning the tour to determine if it was relatively safe to enter these areas. For example, I remember when John (don't remember his last name) was in the education dept. When he was in the process of planning new tours, he'd go to the proposed areas in advance to check them out and determine their feasibility for the tour. He'd coordinate with Stations to clean up certain areas if possible (such as the closed walkway over 149th/Grand Coucourse) or rule the whole thing out. Is this still done?
--Mark
Maybe you were flicking your camera on our October tour when Andy said that the TA had cleaned the lower level of the 8th Ave & 42nd St station prior to our arrival.
I think it's a given that the Museum alerts TA operations in advance of their tours. This gives them the ability to say NO for some operation/safety reason or coor. time (i.e. at a Tower) or clean up prior to the tours arrival.
(I'm jumping on this tread mid-way so please excuse if I've repeated previous comments)
Mr t__:^)
[If you're dissatisfied with something you should send letters to Conway and Reuter. If our voices our heard, something can be done to improve the customer relations picture.]
That's a very good suggestion ... couldn't hurt !
[Tours at the Transit Museum are not to everyone's liking. Maybe they have too many repitious tours. I personally don't see anything wrong, as the Museum's basis for having repitious tours is that a particular tour is popular. They can only accomodate so many people on a tour! But then again, it doesn't hurt to have new tours....]
Connie makes some good points:
__ Supply & demand ... if you have a guide with the knowledge & interest in running a tour AND lots of folks who want to go on it, it's repeated.
__ If someone else has unique knowledge & interest in doing this for free AND is willing to jump over the hurdles to make it happen, then we'll have a NEW tour to go on (e.g. tour of unfinished 63rd St tunnel ... that would be great ... if the suits can walk around there for the cameras, why can't we)
__ I can't say enough NICE things for our October tour guide ... I had a splendid time & have nothing for praise for people who are willing to do this for us ... AND I got to meet a few SubTalkers !! (i.e. I've do a bit of volunteering in my town ... soccer, Boy Scouts, class trips, etc.)
Well enough from me on this ....
Mr t__:^)
I'm disappointed with the decision to cancel this tour as well. Although I've been into most of the places on the I and II versions of the tour (I have taken them both before), I haven't been to all of them, and was scheduled to bring my wife and our younger son along on this one (show them my mousehole, or something like that). We can only hope that the TA will decide to consider the responsible railfan as an asset, not a liability. There is a wealth of history there waiting for someone to appreciate it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Oh that'll do some great P.R. for the museum. "Reluctance of the station department" sure sounds like no one in the NYCTA really gives a damn about the museum any more. On the positive side, maybe they'll have one hell of an auction if they ever close it down!
In the NY Daily News for Friday February 19, page 34, is an article that subway and bus ridership has grown by 1 million riders a day in the last two years - hitting its highest mark in three decades.
Transit officals credit the boom to the new mertocard fare discounts, a huge subway-crime drop, and buses and trains that break down less often.
After you good folks of subtalk read the rest of the article your thoughts on the article are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Also this article is in the NY Post Friday February 19 page 5.
Again your thoughts are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
It's the immigrants, and in-migrants. The native born who stopped riding in the 1970s haven't come back, but they have moved out or died, replaced by people from elsewhere who do ride the trains and buses.
Also, some of those "new" rides aren't much. Since the free transfer/unlimited ride, when I pick up my kids from school we hop a bus rather than walk if its there. It isn't a new trip, or a trip subsituted for a car trip, it isn't really neccessary, and the TA doesn't get any extra money. I'd say the slower growth of subway ridership is real, and the faster growth of bus ridership is just substituting for 5-15 minute walks.
I agree with the theory that it's a combination of
decreases in crime and fares. Yes, many of the trips are
short and non-revenue producing, but the bottom line for
the TA shows lots of extra cash.
Daily News:
TA's Got 1M More
Riders
Post: TA POLL:
RIDERS' NUMBERS AND SPIRITS SOARING
Gary,
Thanks for posting the links to the articles. This is very positive news.
Bill
I read the Post article - it was interesting, but I would've liked to have seen more information. For example, is the increase concentrated in rush hour, or is there more off-peak travel? And how about line-by-line breakdowns?
Thank god the TA has expanded tracks and trains and service by 20% to meet the demand!!!
(I'm posting the full article, as the SILIVE.com website allows you to mail the article to someone, a slight stretch of that permission would be a public post on this forum. Thus, I am including the author and the publication date)
Railway adds 3 express runs to evening rush
Extra service for commuters leaving the St. George ferry terminal starts April 1
February 18, 1999
By REGINALD PATRICK
ADVANCE BOROUGH HALL BUREAU
and NICCI OLDS
ADVANCE STAFF WRITER
On April 1, New York City Transit will add three new express train trips for weary commuters leaving the St. George ferry terminal.
It may seem like an April Fool's joke to the more than 2,000 evening rush hour commuters on the Staten Island Railway seeking a quick route to the South Shore. But it's no joke.
The additional trips at 4:50 , 6:16 and 6:31 p.m. will almost double the service.
The system now runs four express trains out of St. George at 5:11, 5:30, 5:47 and 6:02 p.m. The express trains run non-stop from St. George to Great Kills, after which then make local stops to Tottenville.
Rep. Vito Fossella Jr. lobbied New York City Transit to add the service.
The lawmaker sat down with New York City Transit President Lawrence Reuter in August and continued to press the case in telephone conversations afterward.
"This is a tremendous transportation victory for Staten Island commuters," Fossella said. "It will allow commuters living on the South Shore to get home quicker and more conveniently. The additional service will allow people to spend less time on the train and more time with their families."
Commuters were happy to get the news.
"It should help," said Anthony Nespoli of Huguenot, as he raced from the ferry to the train. "It's so slow now. They need to add the extra trips."
"This will be good because it's so crowded, sometimes I don't even get to sit," said another commuter, Grace Oh of Great Kills.
"Now I won't have to leave work early," said Michael Terlizzi of Annadale.
The Staten Island Railway, a 14-mile system with 22 stations, serves about 19,700 riders each weekday, according to New York City Transit. Right now the four rush hour trains out of St. George handle about 2,280 passengers, according to officials.
Currently, the express trains are spaced over a roughly one-hour period. That window will now be extended from extended from 4:50 p.m. to 6:31 p.m.
"The expanded express service will shave time off the rush hour commute and ease overcrowded conditions," Fossella said.
Fossella said he plans to continue to "look for other ways to make the commute better for Staten Islanders." Most recently the Staten Island Republican has proposed using a portion of the multi-million dollar federal gas tax surplus to fund improvements to the Staten Island Expressway.
I found that route curtain I spoke of in the garage last night. After unfurling it, here's what it has:
AA/8th Ave. local (any idea how this was included?)
KK/Av. of Americas local
LL/14th St. local
M/Nassau Street
MM/Av. of Americas local (yes, it's in there!)
QJ/Nassau Street
SS/Shuttle (printed on stiff material and glued to both sides of canvas
There you have it!
I read in the paper today about mixed reactions to an extension from Jamaica Center to SE Queens. Anybody with thoughts on that one please share........
City Council Member Juanita Watkins' comment that a subway would bring in crime just shows that you don't have to be white to be an anti-Black bigot, you just have to live in Queens for 30 years or so. What an outrage. This is the same person who fought to keep a new supermarket out of her district, so everyone could drive out to Nassau County where the store's property taxes could support schools for "good" people. Who voted in this nasty nitwit anyway? Thank God for term limits.
[City Council Member Juanita Watkins' comment that a subway would bring in crime just shows that you don't have to be white to be an anti-Black bigot, you just have to live in Queens for 30 years or so. What an outrage.]
Larry, Larry, Larry, what _are_ we going to do about you ? In today's Politically Correct climate, it is absolutely *impossible* for a minority - ooops! a *person of color* - to be a bigot or a racist no matter how hateful his or her opinions may be. It is only us Ice People who can be racist today. You'd better grasp this point pronto, or else you'd be dead meat on the Upper West Side, at an elite university, or in the Village Voice's editorial offices. I'd add the New York Times to that list, but I'm getting the impression that they're a bit less P.C. lately.
Seriously, though, Ms. Watkins' comment is pretty disturbing. I had thought that New York is the one place in the country where these silly fears of transit don't exist. Guess I'm wrong :-(
I can't speak for the whole country, but there is definately the same type of problem facing the Triangle Transit Authority's plan for a regional rail line linking various parts of the Research Triangle (North Carolina) area. The western terminus of Phase I is supposed to be in Durham, adjacent to Duke University Medical Center and the VA hospital, but now Duke University President Nan Keohane has come out in opposition, claiming that it will be used mainly by people who will drive to that location, park their cars in the adjacent overpriced parking deck, and ride to RTP or Raleigh. Employees and patients of the medical centers will be inconvenienced, she says, by having a station there.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[In today's Politically Correct climate, it is absolutely *impossible* for a minority - ooops! a *person of color* - to be a bigot or a racist no matter how hateful his or her opinions may be. It is only us Ice People who can be racist today.]
In the language of the Conservative backlash, (let's call it "Traditionally Correct") There is no such thing as "racism", only "reverse racism"! Ever since Civil Rights, it's only the revolting downtrodden who could be guilty of "hate", while the people in control in society were the innocent victims. This is what I see in conservative rhetoric ever since.
When I read an article about the Schuykill Valley Metro( the proposed section into 69th St)I was surprised that no one had any complaints against it crime-wise. The 69th St area, as an area sandwiched between the city and suburbs, has it's share of crime.
I learned that hate is an equal-opportunity dark cloud.
Ah, the politics of race. What would NY be without it? For an almost parallel situation, look at the Skytrain to JFK. Although the line's ROW would be the Van Wyck Expressway, (not encroaching on any local streets) the 'locals' have vowed to stop the project. Why? Because they are all asking, what's in it for me? One local news station covered a local board meeting (which looked strangely like an episode of the "Jerry Springer Show"). The most plausible reason given for opposing the project was all the dust from the construction. What's all the mugging for the cameras about? Political handouts !!!! Toss a few hundred thou at them and watch the community leaders and the 'religous' leaders do their impression of the WWF.
As for the non-issue of crime, walk around Baisley Blvd area. The 105th precinct is hardly crime free now. Again, I suggest local opposition to any subway expansion is a matter of "What's in it for me?" or better yet, "What's in it for me besides convenience and higher property values?" If I were in a policy making position my feeling would be 'S&%$W 'Em' and I'd extend the F line or the #7 line through northern Queens where the people want the service.
(We should give the money to the people who want the service) The people of southeast Queens do want the service, just like they wanted a new supermarket. But somehow these nasty idiots are attracted to the absurd political process we've created. They want money for their little group in exchange for getting out of the way.
Taint just black neighborhoods. In fact, the worst people for this are whites who have lived in the city for more than one generation. I'd rather be sent to a community board meeting in a black neighborhood any day than to Soho or the South Shore of Staten Island (the north shore isn't as bad, why I don't know). That why this Juanita Watkins is such an outlier -- perhaps she is pursuing "equality" by becomming the city's first black snob.
Perhaps we should use referenda to shout those SOBs down. The NIMBYs would lose 10 to 1 if everyone got a vote. Public hearings are joke. They attract self-important players, not the public.
[(We should give the money to the people who want the service) The people of southeast Queens do want the service, just like they wanted a new supermarket. But somehow these nasty idiots are attracted to the absurd political process we've created. They want money for their little group in exchange for getting out of the way.
Perhaps we should use referenda to shout those SOBs down. The NIMBYs would lose 10 to 1 if everyone got a vote. Public hearings are joke. They attract self-important players, not the public.]
Referendum votes wouldn't solve anything. They'd almost certainly attract a very low voter turnout. And who would be the voters who actually would show up? The NIMBYs, of course.
Lately politics in NYC have become "The Theater of the Absurd". In a previous posting, I mentioned a local board meeting where the Skytrain was the issue. What I neglected to mention that the leader was not in favor of the skytrain but he said, in essence, we can object and protest but this line will be built. The crowd turned on him, vowing that he'd pay for his support of the project. Despite this, not one of those against the project could give a single credible argument for their opposition to the project.
I don't think that a pat phrase like NIMBY can explain away the prevailing social attitudes in NYC these days. Had the Port Authority shown up at the meeting and stated that there would be a position open for a 'Coordinator for Community Bd. #XX Affairs' what do you think would have happened? Perhaps I'm too cynical but it now seems that a few 'No Show Jobs' go a long way to greasing the noisy wheels of our minority communities.
If you think I'm off base, look at what has happened to the NYC construction industry. At virtually every union construction project in the city, an organized coalition of non-union, minority workers show up and demand jobs in exchange labor 'peace'.
If Ms. Watkins is speaking for her constituents, then so be it. As taxpayers and voters they have the right not to have something rammed through their neighborhood. The subway = more crime issue is more complicated. The older neighborhoods in Brooklyn and Queens depended on the subway and elevated lines before the automobile became affordable. These areas had the oldest housing, including walk-up apartments. After 1945 those people became more prosperous and moved out to nicer neighborhoods or out of NYC altogether. The 'old neighborhood' became filled with less stable poor people, and crime rates increased. The older housing just happens to be in the areas that were first served by mass-transit. Plenty of low-crime areas like Bay Ridge and Bensonhurst have subway service. We sold a house in Brooklyn back in 1990, and proximity to the 'F' train was a positive selling point for us. Every neighborhood has different concerns that in a democracy have to be respected.
The city council people represent no one but themselves and their pals. Thank God for term limits.
You can't dismiss her (or any councilmember) that easily. She may have been crazy to alienate Pathmark for who knows what reason. But a subway extension could be perceived as a negative, and nor because of the complicated crime issue. Regarding crime and transit, since the SIR fare was effectively elimated, robberies have been occuring at or near the Grant City and New Dorp Stations. The SIR never, and I do mean never had this problem before. Sad but true.
Grant City is the location of a (private) housing project, and more importantly, a 7-11 hangout. New Dorp has always been a problem, mostly with teenagers from New Dorp HS. To blame an increase in crime in these areas (New Dorp being a major shopping district as well) on the free SIR is rediculous. Most of the crime in these areas (and the South Shore in general) is perpetrated by neighborhood residents.
-Hank
[Grant City is the location of a (private) housing project, and more importantly, a 7-11 hangout. New Dorp has always been a problem, mostly with teenagers from New Dorp HS. To blame an increase in crime in these areas (New Dorp being a major shopping district as well) on the free SIR is rediculous. Most of the crime in these areas (and the South Shore in general) is perpetrated by neighborhood residents.]
I hear echoes of the original LOOT-rail scenario. The whole concept of transit-brings-crime began some years ago when the town of Linthicum, Maryland became connected by rail to Baltimore. Crime rates, mostly burglary, increased soon after, and local residents blamed an influx of rail-riding criminals from the inner city. These claims got a lot of attention and gave rise to the "LOOT-rail" phrase. Yet hardly anyone took notice when, a couple of years later, it was shown that most of the crime was committed by local youths.
The incidents that have been covered by the Advance involved criminals from the north shore. There has been a marked increase since the fare was eliminated. The apartments at Lincoln Avenue are co-ops, not a problem. A lot of the north shore bounds kids from New Dorp High walk to the SIR in order to avoid paying the fare on the S76 or S78 buses. I've lived in New Dorp for ten years and these incidents started occuring after the fare elimination. There has also been an increase in station vandalism, which the SIR generally does a good job of eliminating.
There has always been a station vandalism problem, simply because there's no control on who enters the station. When those glass and concrete 'wind screens' went up, I witness some kids at Annadale with an aluminum bat taking swings at the glass blocks. There's always been graffitti and scratches in the wood benches that were installed as well, and this work was finished well before the elimination of the fare. As for the students 'avoiding the fare on the....buses', every student who has to travel more than 1.5 miles to school gets a free bus pass, and no fare is required of them. It may just be that you didn't notice them before the fare elimination, or the youth element has gotton worse over the past few years (it has to my eyes)
-Hank
Could you be more specific on where you found the article? (Name of paper, page number, etc.) This article sounds appealing, but I can only access New York papers through their online editions.
No hard feelings, just curious!
Does it really surprise you? Just propose a major infrastucture project anywhere in the Greater New York area, and some group will have some exceedingly silly reason why it shouldn't be done there - it would be fine somewhere else, but N.I.M.B.Y.
After reading this article, it is apparent that the people who are opposed to the line extension can afford to get to Manhattan. A connection should be built between LIRR's Atlantic Branch and the Jamaica Center complex and E and R trains should run to Valley Stream, stopping at Locust Manor, Laurelton, and Rosedale. If the NIMBYs want to stop the subway, then they should pay for all Southeast Queens commuters to ride the LIRR. They moan and groan over temporary construction to build the line and parking when bus service does not run in inclement weather or provide a shelter from the elements.
I think a lot of Eastern Queens residents would prefer more LIRR service to subways. Its more expensive, but you don't have to ride with us low-lifes. And that's fine with me, I wouldn't place the SE Queens extension at the top of the list, and only those investments at the top of the list are likely to be made.
But while the Juanita Watkins of the world don't want a subway which allows people like me to get on, people living on the south shore of LI don't want more stops in SE Queens because they don't want to ride with Juanita Watkins. There is the rub.
[But while the Juanita Watkins of the world don't want a subway which allows people like me to get on, people living on the south shore of LI don't want more stops in SE Queens because they don't want to ride with Juanita Watkins. There is the rub.]
I can't imagine that current LIRR riders would get too bent out of shape over a couple more stops in SE Queens. After all, the LIRR already has several stops in the area - Locust Manor, Laurelton, Rosedale, St. Albans, Far Rockaway, Hollis, Queens Village, and of course Jamaica.
I don't think that the LIRR riders would object based on the clientele, but I'm not sure they would object to additional stops which for only a handful of passengers. I'm not sure that the demand exists for more stations in Southeast Queens.
Rosedale and Laurelton appear to have moderate usage, but ridership from Locust Manor is fairly light despite its proximity to a large residential development. I haven't seen more than three people get on or off a train at St. Albans in years. Also, the LIRR closed the station in Springfield Gardens about 15 years ago due to low ridership.
Pete, I have done both the LIRR and the subway-to-bus mode to SE Queens. Personally, I prefer the LIRR mode primarily because it's faster. The trains I have ridden to Rosedale station are quick with usually just one stop in Jamaica (sometimes a stop in Laurelton). I really think that many folks in Rosedale find the LIRR more appealing because it's the fastest way to the city. I think adding more stops would dampen it's appeal a bit. I ride out there from time to time and seldom use the subway/bus method unless I travel on a Sunday. I just don't like waiting for Q5 or Q85 buses at the Archer/Parsons transfer center. Also, the Q5 and Q85 buses to Rosedale are typically too crowded. This is a very busy mass transit corridor- quite similar to Flushing.
Well, I did it. I rode PATH in Midtown Manhattan for the first time this morning. Thanks to everyone for introducing this idea to me. Not a bad ride- and certainly PLENTY of room. At first, I was a little confused at 33rd Street since there are several tracks (all trains dead-end at this station) and I really didn't know what trains were doing what. Interesting how there are these illuminated signs on the top of each car giving an abreviation of the final destination. Very different from the NYC E or #7 subway rollsigns near the side windows.
The PATH subway cars are quite different inside. Lots of orange and brown. Also, there doesn't seem to be that many seats. Seems like these trains were designed to handle more standees than folks in seats. For some reason, I was under the impression that PATH trains had padded seats like NJTransit trains. Not the case at all. Also, PATH cars are incredibly shorter than typical subway cars- even the relatively shorter #7 trains (compared to the longer cars on E, C and A lines I ride).
On the overall, the ride was okay. Unfortunately, I had to pay a second fare versus connecting free between subway and PATH. Also, I figured there might be connecting underground walkways to PATH but instead I had to walk surface streets to the station (which took me a bit to find). But at least I experienced the ride.
Francine
> Also, PATH cars are incredibly shorter than typical subway cars-
> even the relatively shorter #7 trains (compared to the longer
> cars on E, C and A lines I ride).
Actually they are the same size (51 feet long 9 feet wide approx) as the IRT cars; but they are most definitely shorter then IND/BMT cars.
-Dave
I thought the PATH station at 33rd St is directly connected to the 34th St / Herald Sq subway station...? Are any of the other PATH stations connected to subway stations? (besides the WTC mall that "connects" PATH to the 1/2/3/9/A/C/E/N/R stations)
[I thought the PATH station at 33rd St is directly connected to the 34th St / Herald Sq subway station...? Are any of the other PATH stations connected to subway stations? (besides the WTC mall that "connects" PATH to the 1/2/3/9/A/C/E/N/R stations)]
23rd Street on PATH is connected to 23rd Street on the F train. 14th Street on PATH is connected to 14th Street (1,2,3,9,F) and Sixth Avenue (L). 9th Street and Christopher Street aren't directly connected to subway stations.
There are no free subway/PATH transfers at any stations.
And never have been, back to the Interboro Rapid Transit/Hudson & Manhattan days. In later years, subway fare was 15 cents and H&M was 30 cents. Since both tokens were the same size, H&M turnstiles took 2 token to release it. There was plenty of crossover of tokens in those days, as the mechanical turnstiles didn't care if the token was brass or nickel silver.
The subject line clearly restates my question.
Looking at Peter's online maps (which are fantastic, by the way) made me think about this. The E line should be able to run express nighttimes with very few, if ANY, problems for the TA. Instead of the E line merging in with the F line just before Van Wyck, couldn't it instead merge just after 36th street before reaching Queens Plaza?
The ONLY possible problem with this concerns train frequency at the local stops. But since, in the end, fewer E trains would be needed, couldn't the extra cash go to working a few more F trains?
Thanks in advance for any information (even if it reveals my mistakes!)
I apologize to everyone for the mistaken information in my previous post (and the repeat one just below it) concerning the E and F trains late nights.
I currently live in Charlotte, and I had been looking at an out-of-date mid-1998 MTA map that took into account some E and F scheduling diversions. I guess I'll have to wait and see what the MTA does once the lines get fixed up before I start complaining.
- Henry
The subject line clearly restates my question.
Looking at Peter's online maps (which are fantastic, by the way) made me think about this. The E line should be able to run express nighttimes (on the Queens Blvd. line, not 8th Ave.) with very few, if ANY, problems for the TA. Instead of the E line merging in with the F line just before Van Wyck, couldn't it instead merge just after 36th street before reaching Queens Plaza?
The ONLY possible problem with this concerns train frequency at the local stops. But since, in the end, fewer E trains would be needed, couldn't the extra cash go to working a few more F trains?
Thanks in advance for any information (even if it reveals my mistakes!)
Had a chance last week to ride the CTA's Purple Line from Quincy/Wells
to Howard. I can't believe all the stops (Merch Mart-Chicago-Sedgwick
-Armitage-Fullerton-Diversey-Wellington-Belmont). Gone are the "Evan-
ston Express" days when trains ran non-stop from Merchandise Mart to
to Loyola, Morse and Howard. At least they don't call it an express
any longer.
"At least they don't call it an express any longer."
I don't think that's fair. True, the Purple makes all stops south of Belmont, but it still runs non-stop from Howard to Belmont, 5.5 miles, skipping twelve Red Line stops. It achieves a very good speed during this stretch and passes several Red trains. I believe that the Purple is still much faster than the Red over that long stretch, and you can change to the Red once you get to Belmont if you think the Purple is slow south of Belmont.
I'd rather have it run as a true express from Howard to Belmont and make all stops south of there, where you have the Red Line option, than your preference for the OLD routing where it stopped at Morse (what the devil is at Morse?) and Loyola but didn't stop until the Mart. I didn't ride back then, but knowing the Red/Brown/Purple shared corridor, I would tend to guess that under that so-called "non-stop" format, Evanston Express trains got stuck behind Reds and Browns in stations and had to stand anyway.
You also have to remember that the Purple has stopped at Belmont, Fullerton, Chicago, and Merchandise Mart for SEVERAL years now. The new stops in the last few years are Wellington, Diversey, Armitage, and Sedgwick. While the Purple Line no longer assesses the 25 cent surcharge, it DID assess it while the stops were Howard, Belmont, Fullerton, Chicago, and Merchandise Mart, and people still packed the trains to the gills at rush-hour because the Purple was still head-and-shoulders faster than the Red Line.
Brings back memories ...
I lived at 7600 N. Greenview for 3+ months in late 1978 and rode the Evanston Express from Howard non-stop to Merchandise Mart - 22 minutes per the timetable rather than the 43 minutes of the skip-stop train that would have taken me to a subway station only one block closer to work. Then my employer transferred me back east (Chicago was only a temporary assignment) and I haven't been back at all since December 1979.
What's at Morse? Well, for starters, the United Church of Rogers Park, where my wife and I were married on 28 October 1978. (At the time, my wife was of that faith and I was basically a nothing, which didn't particularly bother the minister - he was more concerned with the love and affection we showed [and still do] for each other than with our differing religious ideas.) And a wonderful little shop that made blown glass decorations - wonder if it's still there?
Like I said, memories ...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I was a pretty regular Evanston Express commuter (none of this Purple Line revisionism in those days) from 1969 to 1972. It had little chance to get stuck behind Howard trains -- the Evanston used the outer tracks between Howard and Armitage, while Howard trains mostly used the inner tracks, except for B trains making the Addison stop, which in those days had outside platforms -- but, yes, it certainly did tend to get hung up behind Ravenswoods south of Belmont.
The decision to add local stops to Purple Line trains was an effort to relieve overcrowding on Brown Line (Ravenswood) trains and platforms. Much of the territory served by the Brown Line has had a traffic boom through yuppification over the last 15 years or so; and CTA decided that reducing sardine-can conditions on Brown Line was worth the sacrifice of trip time for Purple Line riders. Whether the planned extension of Brown Line platforms to accommodate 8-car trains will lead to a restoration of the Purple Line to a more nearly express service, time alone will tell.
If you rode the Evanston Express between 1969 and 1972, you would have been riding on the 4000-series cars, which were still around back then mainly because the Evanston line still used overhead catenary north of Howard, and those cars had trolley poles. I remember seeing those cars go by my grandmother's apartment building (where my aunt still lives), and could identify them just by listening - they sounded distinctly different from the 6000s. BTW, did their motors moan and groan? I never had a chance to ride them.
Anyway, I didn't realize those trains are now making all stops south of Belmont, but it does make sense considering the Purple and Brown lines share common trackage along that stretch. Now that the Addison station has been reconfigured, Purple line trains have the outer tracks all to themselves north of Belmont.
A. Under what street is the 'E' running under at Jamaica/ Van Wyck?
B. When was the last time the Hammel's Wye round-robin track was used and will it be used in the future?
I'm not sure about the second question!
As for the first question, the E line is under the southbound service road of the Van Wyck Expwy. at the Jamaica Van Wyck station. From the VanWyck Expwy., you can see the glass panels which make up a portion of the upper station wall.
I believe that the Hammel's Wye has been recently used - within the past few months. According to The NYC Transit Subway Service Notices, an train served stations along the Far Rockaway to Rockaway Park stretch (via the Wye) while track work was in progress at Broad Channel (buses were used over the Broad Channel span). Since the notice is gone, I assume that the work is now complete and service is back to normal.
I sure wish they'd call the shuttle the H again however!
Hey todd how did you get the big circle with color font A and S?
Those are bitmap files - Todd has 'em on his home server.
He'll explain how he did it. I have a similar set of files here at home (a.gif thru z.gif and 1.gif thru 13.gif) but don't have a place to put em so I can use em online.
Wayne
Those .gif files are from the MTA NYC Transit site. Since it is a public agency, I expect they are in the public domain (any attorneys out there can correct me if I'm wrong!). All you need to do is bring them up individually through your browser (use VIEW, PAGE INFO for example with Netscape to see their names). Then FILE, SAVE AS on your computer.
Now, if someone with more artistic skills than I have would be willing to "fill-in" the alphabet, I could REALLY use a light blue T (my first initial) and a nice deep blue H for when I write about the line of "my yout" as grandpa used to say!
Todd I have a set of my own, made them some time ago. I have changed them some - added a diamond (and round) "W" and orange "V". I already have "H" (blue) and the "T" is Broadway Gold. The blue you have is not quite the right shade - that's a Broadway East-New York (tile) blue.
I have diamond in the following: B, D, J, K, M, N, R (brown), W and Z; also diamond 4,5,6,7,9 as well as round 8,10,12,13.
The only thing I'm not sure of is the proper syntax on the <a href> command.
Wayne
An image is not included with an href.
Here's how to include an image.
<img src="http://your.server.com/yourimage.gif">
Here's how to include a link:
<a href="http://your.server.com/yourdoc.html">some text</a>
And yes, you could actually use the included image in place of the link text.
-Dave
Jamaica-Van Wyck station is adjacent to the Van Wyck Expressway and does run under a particular street. It turns with a bored tunnel section under the Van Wyck Expressway and then runs under Archer Avenue Avenue.
Can someone help me with an answer please? Most of us remember the square white enamel signs with the station's name in black lettering (most done by the Balto Enamel Sign Co.) on the station columns until they were replaced. However, I also remember seeing a few lone signs, very old, on columns in BMT stations on an October '66 B-Type Fan Trip. They were at Dekalb Ave., Pacific St., and Chambers St. stations. I think they remained on the last column (or two) at the northbound end of the platform at each station (platform location could be wrong - that was 33 years ago but I do remember seeing them looking out the back window when we were city bound from Brooklyn). The black lettering on these (are they pre-war?) was an older, fancier sort of Times-Roman style than the enamel signs. Each letter's parts curved a little, the thickness varied and there were seraphs at the tops, bottoms or ends of each one. These signs mixed upper and lower case letters, the first one ("D" in Dekalb, "P" in Pacific, etc.) was capital, the rest were lower case. I thought they were cool looking. The lettering on the enamel signs was modern - straight with corners and had no seraphs at the ends.
Does anyone remember these old signs - were they enamel or wood? Have any of them been saved by private collectors or are there any that survived into the Transit Museum's signage archives. I'd appreciate any info. anyone knows about them. When I saw them from the back window in '66 I knew I'd have to go back and photgraph them - I never did.
The Baltimore Enamel signs were the original IND signs. The were replaced during station painting in the seventies. I don't think that there are any left, except at Court St
I remember seeing them at Lawrence Street- with the "L" exaggeratedly large and the rest of the lettering in CAPITALS, but a much smaller size, perhaps as small as 2" high. They were porcelainized enamel on sheet metal.
Wayne
Wayne -
Thanks for your reply, good to hear when someone else remembers unusual and/or obscure things from the earlier days. You're right, the remaining smaller letters were CAPITALS. I thought that maybe they were only after I submitted the posting. I hope that someone has saved some of these.
I remember seeing those signs too. I presume they were the original BMT/BRT signage. BTW, the little horizontal lines on letters are called "serifs". "Seraphs" are a type of angel. I know those signs were certainly ornate by today's standards, but pictures of angels on them? I think not.
Thanks for your reply. Good call on the spelling - I knew it was one or the other and couldn't remember - I was typing up my posting at work and could not run to the other end of the office for the Webster's - you know what I mean...
I'm not sure if this is the kind you mean, but check out the North end of the S.B. platform of Pennsylvania Ave on the 3 (I think, it might be Rockaway Ave). It is blue enamel with white lettering.
What about the Times Square signs on the BMT Broadway line? They've been there for as long as I remember, and there is a photo of that station in Subway Cars of the BMT, complete with those round stopping indicators for each of the three Broadway express services (Sea Beach, West End, and Brighton).
For those of you interested in Washington, check out there "Second Avenue Subway" -type dreams in an article from the Washington Post today.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/1999-02/19/011l-021999-idx.html
I see! (read the article) Trolleys once again on the streets of D.C.-
Why the hell did they get rid of them in the first place! And visions of a PCC-type #42 on "C" Street N.E. dance in my head (they weren't really PCCs, they were PCC Clones but close enough).
Here's my take on the so-called Georgetown Line:
Full Subway from Georgetown to Fort Lincoln New Town starting at
Foxhall Road and Reservior Road, running via Reservoir Road, Wisconsin Avenue, "M" Street, Massachusetts Avenue, "H" Street, Bladensburg Road and New York Avenue, terminating near South Dakota Avenue NE. The line would emerge from the tunnel near the east end.
Stations: Reservoir, Georgetown University, Georgetown Center, Connecticut Avenue (connection to Red Line), Scott Circle, Mount Vernon Square (connection to Yellow/Green Line), Union Station North (connection to Red Line), Trinidad (8th & H NE), Capitol Hill East (14th & H NE), Mount Olivet/Arboretum, and Fort Lincoln New Town.
BTW that new station they mention along the Red Line n. of Union Station wouldn't be a bad idea, they'd have to eat up some yard space to create it.
Click on this little link to go and read the article.
Wayne
For an area near downtown, there is a pretty big gap between stations on the Red Line northeast of Union Station. Also, that Bethesda-Silver Spring link will almost turn the Red Line into a big loop (actually, more like a circle with a couple of antennas near the top going to Shady Grove or Wheaton)
If it wasn't for the topography, it would be nice if they could run a new spur off the Red line through Georgetown and then towards Dulles Airport around the Chain Bridge area, but that would be quite a dig on the Virgina side, or quite a climb up from the Potomac.
All of this talk lately brings up a good question about transit systems that use the third rail. Where are the shut off switches?
When I was in Paris I noticed in almost every station on the platform a shut-off switch that had a picture of a stick-figuere getting shocked by the third rail and what I though translated to shut off switch.
Now that I think about this, where are the shut off switches for individual stations here in Chicago, NYC, and other places? I don't believe the CTA has any on the platforms for emergency public useage.
Is there shut off's in all of the station agents boths or at least 1 in every station? This is very hard to believe that there would be.
Anyway, my point is, if someone falls on the tracks and is getting shocked, how long would it take for them to shut the power off? I believe there is a power supervisor they can radio, but this could take minutes which could be fatal for the person. Whereas an emeregency switch in the booth or on the platform could save many lives.
BJ
My guess is that at around 650V and a couple kiloamps, a nasty shock would be fatal in a few secs. Maybe 10, maybe 30. I don't know. I'm not a doctor, nor do I play one on TV ;) AFAIK, contact with overhead systems is more or less always fatal, unless they are 600v.
Emergency Alarm boxes are located every 600 feet, identified by the blue light. A 3rd rail kill sw. is located at each one. Forget about someone who receives more than a glancing shock from the 3rd rail. By the time you activated the EAB, it would likely be too late. Tracks are protected in the hundred(s) thousand amp range while a fatal shock can far, far, less (I suspect that it's actually less than an amp according to ohms law)
I believe 1/8th of an amp is fatal to most humans.
You will be fryied when your body resistance draws a current equal is 3.2 watts. With 650 VDC the current to FRY is a few milliamperes.
>You will be fryied when your body resistance draws a current equal is 3.2 watts. With 650 VDC the current to
>FRY is a few milliamperes.
Do you mean 3.2amps or do you mean when the power is 3.2 watts? I thought power is in watts and current is in amps... I could be completely off my rocker. :)
-Mike
I think David means when the current, I, is such that VI=3.2
At a voltage of 600V, that's about 5mA to produce 3.2 watts.
I'm not sure where that figure came from though. What I've
always heard quoted is approx 10mA across the heart is the
fatality point. The body can withstand much more than that,
as long as it doesn't cross anything important. For example,
a current of about 1 Amp across the palm of your hand will give
you a slight burn, but won't be fatal......that is if the current
flows only through your palm and there is no other path across
the chest, such as back to ground via your shoes.
There are "third rail power trips" at all the BART stations. They aren't that obvious and the button is behind a breakable glass insert. I don't think it would help much once the person was being electrocuted. Maybe just to stop the the train if a person just fell on the tracks.
There are some stations with third rail popwer switches. Theya re in the Station Service Booth (new name for token booth).
I do not have a list of the stations that have the box.
We have instructions to call the trainmaster and hit our alarm if we use the switch. They are in a stainless steel box.
This Is Any Exact Copy Of What I read On
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/facts/ffcap.htm
In 1998 and 1999, NYC will use capital improvement funds to:
Rebuild: The Franklin Av. Shuttle: and reconstruct subway stations at Atlantic Av., Times Square, 72nd St./Broadway and 53rd St./Lexington Av.
Rehabilitate: 9 subway stations, 9 fan plants and 12 pumping facilities.
"Build: The 63rd St.tunnel connection to Queens Boulevard lines; Rail Control Center.
*****Install: Automated Train Supervision for the 4, 5 and 6 routes*****; a communications-based Train Control on the Canarsie (L) subway line; New Technology signals on the Canarsie line; an Automatic Vehicle Locators (AVL) system and a Customer Information System for bus dispatchers.
Modernize and Replace: 45 miles of tunnel lighting and 27 miles of signals.
Construct: By 2001 a new subway line, the 63rd St. tunnel connection"
****** On ATS-> Does This Mean That They are going to remove conductors when the R-142's Arrive? I find it unsafe, however is it still going ahead as scheduled?? will The motorman Make annoucements, or will they be automated?
i never trust automated and it tooo danger. If they do and i will never take the trains again and i will ride my bike to work and coming home. MTA don't know what they doing and trying to laid off worker so they can save more money and they are wrong and they not very smart.
DNJ-I agree!
And what happens if you visit Washington or Sanfrnacisco, where 1-man operation is the norm? Bet you didn't even realize it. The problem in NY is that no one is used to OPTO. There has yet to be a safety-related problem or injury caused by OPTO on any NYC subway line that is using it.
-Hank
Atlanta also use OPTO, but none of these systems operate with 600-foot long trains.
San Francisco BART operates with rush hour consists of ten (10) cars each one being 70 feet long for a train length of 700 feet. Our operation is via Automatic Train Protection, a dual system (redundant) with automatic station stops, automatic routing and automatic speed adjustments. Doors are automatic, but the operator must enable them to open, and must enable them to close after he is given a door close command alert. Operators can operate trains in revenue service up to 25 MPH only..which severely impacts revenue scheduling, as normal scheduled speeds are generally 72 MPH. All incidents and accidents (derails, crunches, etc,) have occurred when the operator is in manual control; never while in Automatic operation.
>All incidents and accidents (derails, crunches, etc,) have occurred >when the operator is in manual control; never while in Automatic >operation.
What about "The Fremont Flyer"? When BART first started running, the computer sent a 2 car train off the ends of the track in Fremont into a parking lot. (No one was hurt).
The infamous Fremont flyer into the parking lot was caused by a metal can housing turning around a component on board the car causing a 66 mph speed command. We all learned from this in the industry and it will be never be repeated using false safe principals. The BART train control system is patch job with Sequential Occupancy Detection System and other bandaides. Don't use BART as a standard because it is not and it uses wide gauge track.
While that is true, (this was car 143 - since converted and still in use as a "B" car, #801) the famous Fremont Flyer was not an "in service" train, but in use during the later phases of testing, the only occupants were BART and contract employees. This event, however led to the complete redesign of the on board system (the failure was NOT the computer, but a component used in the on board Westinghouse Train Control equipment) so that a single point failure could not result in a higher speed comand being interpreted by the on board equipment; in short any disparity results in a STOP! The on board equipment that was used during that time period (hardware dependant)was removed and replaced with the current redundant computer based programmable system in 1988 to 1989. BOTH operating ATP's MUST agree on operating parmeters and signal strength and speed commands and wheel wear settings and hundreds of other items or an SET - Safety Error Termination - is called causing the train to Full Braking to a Halt, and the termination of Automatic Operation. A logging recorder logs a list of items, similar to flight recorders and is used if any question arises....it will tell what mode of operation the train was in (auto or Manual). As D. Rosenthal has aptly stated, there are additional overlays dealing with the wayside train separation items and signalling; as well as Central Supervision which can close interlocking gates to prevent a train from going beyond a given point in Automatic. Our last Extension train control is GRS based.
BART operation is OPTO.
Hank, Have you looked at the OPTO safety report on the TWU web site.
They say there was 31 cases of Injured Costomers and 15 cases of Injured Employees on OPTO LINES.
Check it out yourself at www.twu-100.org/hot.htm
Also I am trying to aviod working OPTO as long as I can.
If I I'M FORCED to do OPTO I will take my sweet time getting Downtown and back. Also if pulls the cord in the back of the train I will wait as long as it takes for police to get to the train before resetting.
Because now i have no one to check on me if something happens
And there are also comparable amounts of injuries on non-OPTO lines as well, which of course, they don't mention. There has yet to be an injury that would have been prevented had the train NOT been in OPTO service. The union is interested more in preserving/creating jobs for their members, and not in the fiscal matters of the agency they work for, which I think is slightly silly. If the company loses money, they lay people off.
The link you provided to the TWU Local 100 web site only makes statements, and shows nothing to substantiate claims. With the press in this city, if an injury occuring on/with a train in OPTO service, it would be plastered all over the news, and there would be immediate front-page calls to end the practice. OPTO is safe in 90% of the NYC system, and I will again repeat my statement that the only reason the public is opposed to OPTO is because they are afraid of anything new. Hey, they even hate the new subway cars, which only exist on PAPER at this moment. When the bucket-type seats arrived, people said they hated it, they wanted bench-type seating. When bench-type seating was announced for the R143 order, they wanted bucket-type seats!
-Hank
So you don't trust automation on a transit system. We have automatic train operation on MARTA with manual doors. It works fine and it is 150% safe. Any time there is an accident it is ALWAYS when a operator violates a signal or operates without cab signal.
We studied driveless trains and decided again it. A operator on board is important.
It is not injury from the train itself most people are worried about.
Very few of you ( I do ) have to ride the trains between 1am and 5am. Most of us sit with the conductor or the motorman. The IRT already has enough intimidating thugs on it at night, now they are going to remove one of the only safeguards that were on it. Most conductors will watch the passengers between stations, giving them a sense of safety. If you run to catch the train at the last minute, and jump on a car with a gang of kids on it, whose gonna radio for the police under the Joralemon St. tube while your'e getting mugged? The motorman pays barely enough attention to the riders as is, he has the train to worry about. I bet you will see a big rise in crime on the Lex line once this begins.
Your message has nothing to do with ATS. The purpose of ATS is to consolidate all the controls and indications to one central location to have a overview of the system for controlling train movements. If anything it will prevent crime by having a central point of control.
You want to get rid of crime, start by getting rid of these attorney's who represent these thrugs!!!
[The purpose of ATS is to consolidate all the controls and indications to one central location to have a overview of the system for controlling train movements. If anything it will prevent crime by
having a central point of control.]
How could centralized train control reduce crime? I simply don't see any relationship.
[You want to get rid of crime, start by getting rid of these attorney's who represent these thugs!!!]
Not a bad idea, but that's way out of the TA's hands.
If you centralize the operations than the Control Center personnel can contact the proper authorities to dispatch police, medical and other personnel to the field. This will save time in handling emergency matters. Passenger emergency call boxes at platforms will be used to the Control Center and the personnel at Control Center will have the facilities at his fingertips to send personnel to the right location. A Centralized location has a overview of the system and is capable of stopping trains, performing reroutes and shutting down third rail power quickly. It can only help matters for reducing crime and taking care of keeping the system moving.
Will the R-142's have locked doors. Not only will centralized control make it harder to reach an MTA Employee, say , if you are in the rear car. However, if the doors are locked, muggings, beatings, etc. will increase. What defense do you have?
Your being completely negative. Centralizing the operations of a subway system will decrease crime and it does on MARTA and WMATA, a fact.
[Your being completely negative. Centralizing the operations of a subway system will decrease crime and it does on MARTA and WMATA, a fact.]
I still find this hard to accept. It's been well documented that police can be slow to respond to subway calls. Centralized control isn't going to change that. Regarding the Washington Metro, its low crime rate is attributable to a variety of factors: more intensive policing than in New York, the overnight shutdown, the presence of agents in the stations (who aren't locked up in booths like in NY), and the time/distance based fares (which discourage troublemakers from idly riding around looking for crime opportunities). I don't know enough about MARTA to comment.
Have you ever ridden systems other than New York City for commuting purposes?
And the point here is...?
Today I needed a police officer in response to customer requests. I called Control at Atlantic Ave S.B., received an answer from them at Grand Army Plaza and didn't get my cop until after a 10 minute wait at Utica Ave. How does having one person on the train, and Control watching everything get a faster response?
"i never trust automated and it tooo danger. If they do and i will never take the trains again and i will ride my bike to work and coming home. MTA don't know what they doing and trying to laid off worker so they can save more money and they are wrong and they not very smart."
So, since you "never trust automated," I presume that you never ride in elevators unless there is an elevator operator, and you walk up and down the stairs in every building, even ones thirty or more stories?! Let's bring back all those laid-off elevator operators from fifty years ago! The building owners didn't "know what they doing" and "they not very smart"!
By the way, good grammar! Use the SHIFT key once in a while, especially for "I".
Thank John, by the way i never trust elevator too because i used to live in project for 23 years. Now i been living in the private house for 7 years now. When i used to live in project I used to walk up and down the stair everyday coming from school or going out somewhere because the elevators is very danger and alway get stuck between floor. Because i don't believe Automated Trains or elevators and it very danger for people.
If they are going to "renovate" 53rd-Lexington, maybe they can do something about those sad-looking brown walls. Or is there not enough clearance between the wall and third rail to install tile panels? (they only need a few inches)
Wayne
The Automatic Train Supervision is to install a Control Center for the entire IRT Division and this job is being done by Union Switch & Signal at a low bid of $128 million. The high bid is $165 million. This will include installing all the code systems in the field and tie-in to the existing signal systems. Of course the White Plains Line will need moderization to the replace the old US & S Model 14 Electro-Pneumatic Interlocking machines.
A moth ago, many of us on subtalk were saying rosevelt island was the deepest station, however
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/facts/ffstat.htm
says this:
""High and Low
At 88 feet above street level, Smith and Ninth Streets in Brooklyn (F and G) is the highest. The 191st Street in Manhattan is the lowest subway station at 180 feet below ground. ""
The statements made there are relative to the local surface. Relative to sea level will produce different answers. I would suspect that the highest station relative to sea level would be somewhere in the Bronx, while the lowest would be adjacent to one of the East River Crossings.
[The statements made there are relative to the local surface. Relative to sea level will produce different answers. I would suspect that the highest station relative to sea level would be somewhere in the Bronx, while the lowest would be adjacent to one of the East River Crossings.]
The stations near the end of the 2 line in the Bronx probably are the highest above sea level.
Now, all we need to do is find out the depth of the 63rd St. tunnel below mean sea level at the Roosevelt Island station.
It's actually somewhere between 90 and 100 feet.
In the NY Post Saturday February 20, page 14, is an editorial about ridership being up. It goes by the Title ''Good News is Bad News for thw Whiners.''
After you read this editorial your thoughts are most welcome as always.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Part of the "whining syndrome" may be just the basic nature of New Yorkers. It does seem ironic that one of the tabloids should find a problem with this. Don't many of their headlines do just that--whine about anything possible?
Good News Is Bad News For the Whiners
A survey by the same organization, perhaps the same survey, stated that 78% of NewYorkes want the 2nd Ave Subway to be built BUT that number falls by 3/4 to around 20% when asked if they would want it built via higher taxes. I guess Santa bettr 86 the toys and start digging.
That describes Denverites to a T. Most of the people you ask support light rail, but they don't want to see a tax increase to pay for funding.
> Don't many of their [New York Post] headlines do just that--whine
> about anything possible?
Yup. Or maybe "rant and rave" would be a better description. But "whine" seems to be a code-word used by conservatives to pejoratively categorize any sort of complaint that they perceive as coming form the "left".
I guess complaining about the fact that New York City's spending on transportation, as a share of the income of its residents, is 40 percent lower than the national average, is whining. So is complaining that its spending on schools is 20 percent below aveage, while spending in the rest of the state is 60 percent above average.
But complaining about the fact that NY's taxes on the rich and businesses are higher than elsewhere does not count as whining by the Post.
What do I consider whining? The fact that the Greater New York Hospital Association, the spending category that ate New York, is complaining that its government-derived revenues are not going up as fast as in the past. When the priviledged complain, now THATs whining.
To Max or Rob or other LT fans - does anyone know how muckh longer the 59 stock will survive on the Northtern Line.
The Northern Line will continue to use 1959 stock at least for another 6 months but the "plan" is to have all trains on all lines either new or refurbished by the year 2000, some 10 months away.
New includes:Jubilee line 1996 stock
Central line 1992 stock (includes Waterloo & City)
Northern Line 1995 stock
refurbished includes:
Metropolitan refurbished A60 stock (includes East London Line)
Circle Line refurbished C69/C77 stock
(includes Hammersmith& City )
Bakerloo line refurbished 1972 Mark 2 stock
Picadilly line refurbished 1973 stock
victoria line refurbished 1967 stock
The only odd one out is the District line D stock which although has had some engineering modifications, no refurbishment or painting has been carried out.
If you want to ride 1959 stock NOW is the time to do it, as i understand that the NEW 1995 stock has to run 800 fault free miles before being accepted by London Underground off the owners and maintainers , a company called ALSTOM.As this process is taking longer than expected only about 24 of the NEW trains are in use.........so the 1959 stock will remain for some months yet!!!!
regards
Rob :^)
I would eternally grateful if some kind soul could point me in the right direction for these plans. I am planning (ambitiously) to build the "Green Hornet", Bluebird, and the PS multi-section cars.
Thanks.
Gene Sansone's "Evolution of New York City Subways: An Illustrated History of New York City's Transit Cars, 1867-1997" has diagrams of the exteriors of the Green Hornet, Zephyr, Bluebird (Compartment) and MS cars and photos of the interiors. Some information isn't included, such as the colors. The Bluebirds had a lighter and a darker blue with an ivory on the exterior; their seats were PCC-style, covered in mohair (beige, I think), and the floor had square red tiles (probably asbestos or rubber-asbestos). The mirrors on either side of the articulation connections were something that I've never seen on another transit car. They had PCC bullet lights.
I think the Green Hornet had leather seats, but I'm not sure about that--I rode the Multi-Sections many a time, especially on Canarsie and 14th-Fulton and the Bluebirds on 14th Street, but the Green Hornet was long gone and I only saw the Zephyr sitting on the Fulton El center track just west of Hinsdale Street station in the early to mid- 1950s. It sat there with a 'Park Row' sign on the front during those years.
Sansone's book (and a bit of imagination) should be really useful. What material are you using to make the cars? And what scale?
Good luck on the construction.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
I hadn't realized that this book had so much information. It is unfortunate that it is only available through the NYCTA Museum. I'll never get there personally, so perhaps they will sell a copy to me via the phone or fax.
I prefer styrene as a modeling material, but building these cars may dictate using sheet brass. It would be far easier to work up a set of CAD drawings and etch the sides than to impress rivets one at a time in styrene. I'll probably do them in O scale to make putting an interior in a bit easier. These will be strictly for show, not for "go". Thanks for the info...
Chris :^)
Thanks Larry, I remember the 10 but the 13 & 14 were new to me and I obviously didn't know 12. I thought I had a fair selection of books on NY Transit but I don't remember ever seeing a complete list anywhere in the books that I have unless I had a senior moment on that page.
What number was assigned to Metropolitan Ave-Bridge-Jay St run. In the 1940's when a OP train ran from Bridge-Jay St to 111th St during rush hours, would it still be a #12?
Karl: All runs between Metropolitan and Bridge-Jay via Myrtle Av would be #11.Bridge-Jay to 111 St via Lexington and Bway-Bklyn would be #12. The BMT Routes were designated usually by the outer route operation(in most cases) rather than the Manhattan Line of operation. Hence the 14 St-Fulton St trains are #13 not #16."Subway Cars of the BMT" by James Greller has a complete list on p 66. There is also a list on p52 of "Rapid Transit in Brooklyn" by Joseph Cunningham and Leonard DeHart. However there is a mistake in the text on p62 of that book referring to the 1936 startup of 14 ST-Fulton St service as the #17, it was the #13 and that was the route displayed on the Multis.
Best Wishes,Larry,Redbird
Larry,Redbird, I have the book "Subway Cars of the BMT". I checked and you are right. I would have sworn that I had never seen that list before, it truly must have been a senior moment. That other book you quote fascinates me. I am not familiar with it at all, in fact I had never even heard of it. Since you know of my love of the OP gate cars of the old days and also are familiar with the book, would you recommend that I try to purchase a copy.
Regards, Karl B
Karl: "A History of the New York City Subway System"
Part I "The Manhattan Els and the IRT"
Part II "Rapid Transit in Brooklyn"
Part III "The independent System and City Ownership"
by Joseph Cunningham and Leonard O.Dehart published in 1976 and 1977.
Originally printed as three separate books this was re-issued a few years ago as one book and could be found in regular book stores. It is an excellent history of the transit system starting from the steam days and going forward, the information includes signal codes for all three divisions,a very comprehensive roster, a service history overview, all IND color tile schemes and maps. Yes I would most definitely recommend it. I frequently refer to it.
PS There is some question as to what route number would have been assigned to the Fulton-Lexington service since this began in 1940 after the Fulton St El ceased operations west of Rockaway Av. This was after the old BMT Company was gone and under the auspices of the NYC Board of Transportation. Was it a #12 OR #13?
Best Wishes,Larry,Redbird
Larry, Redbird: Thanks for the info. It does sound like a book that I ought to read and have. I have a book dealer friend here in PA who should be able to get it for me and perhaps give me a discount besides. I'll bet it is an expensive book though if it was originally three books and then reprinted into one.
I would be a poor one to ask about BMT numbers since the only two that I was aware of were 10 and 15.
Have you ever seen a good color picture of an OP after it was freshly painted green? If so, what shade of green would you call it? I remember that the color darkened rapidly from weathering. The only pictures I have are in my mind, and I can't put the shade of the color into words when asked to describe it.
Regards, Karl B.
Karl: I am lokking at "The Brooklyn Elevated" by James C>Greller and Edward B.Watson, p43 and there is a train of BU's led by 661 in what appears to be a weathered patina green. I'm not sure if this is the actual color or an aging transparency. It is certainly much lighter than the olive green drab that was used on subway cars in the 50's and lighter than the pullman green that was used on the R-10's in their last days.The best book for color pictures of the NYC Transit Systems inc. PATH and SIRT is "Gotham Turnstiles" by John Henderson. Unfortunately it chronicles the system from the early 1960's,after the BU's were gone. I've also looked through several back copies of the NYC Subway Calenders but I can't find a green BU. If you live near Phily it might be possible to get any of these at the SEPTA Museum Store.They have a pretty extensive book selection.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry.Redbird, I have the book "The Brooklyn Elevated" and believe me the color is way off in the picture on p43. BTW, did you notice that that picture was printed backwards. I'm afraid that negative has deteriorated. The whole train looks green, the second car is a trailer and none of them were ever painted green. Check the picture of #1384 on the back cover, it's a lot closer but still weathered. I also have "Gotham Turnstiles" and all of the subway calenders except the first one in 1993. I am afraid that we are just out of luck. I really wonder if anyone ever took a color picture of a freshly painted car. I believe they stopped painting them about 1950 so the picture would have to have been taken between 1945 and 1951.
Regards, Karl B.
I was just wondering how many six track (parallel) segments exist on the system. Two that immediately come to mind are DeKalb Avenue and the stretch of track between Brighton Beach and Ocean Parkway. Any others?
135th St. on the 8th Ave. line.
Hoyt-Schermerhorn Sts. on the Fulton St. line.
West of Brighton Beach.
More than 6 tracks section north of 137th Street station on the 7th Avenue IRT. This is 137th Street Yard. On the 8th Avneue IND there is more that 4 tracks between 135th Street and 145th Street stations (Upper and Lower).
CTA has a 6 track elevated section aournd Fullerton station north of the loop.
Adding to the six-track list--The Atlantic Avenue/East New York station was built with six tracks. There are eight tracks at Stillwell Avenue. Ninth Avenue on the West End and Culver had six tracks. Queensborough Plaza had eight tracks.
You could probably say that Park Row on the BMT had six tracks with platforms, but it was arranged with two tracks from the Bridge spreading into four under the shed and then back into two over the street at City Hall.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Had the IND Second System been built, we'd be talking about another six-track segment - S. 4th St.
I wish there was a Utica Avenue line. I used to live along Utica and I came up with my own train line. It would be two lines H and I trains. Terminal: West-Houston Sts in Manhattan. The H would be aan all time train, running express during the day and local at night and weekends. This train would have run from Kingsboro Community College-ManhattanBch through Nostrand Av to Ave. S to Utica where it would have connected with the I train from Kings Plaza. From there it would have express/local to S.4 St. The stations would be as follows:
West St/Houston
Varick St/Houston (1,9 trains)
Broadway-Lafayette/Houston (B,D,F,6)
2 Av/Houston (F,2nd Ave Subway)
Columbia St/Hoouston
Bedford Av/Grand St
S. 4 St (G)*
Lorimer St
Graham Av
Broadway-Myrtle Av (J,M,Z)*
Dekalb/Stuyvesant
Gates Av/Stuyvesant
Halsey St/Stuyvesant
Fulton St-Utica Av (A,C)*
Bergen St/Utica
Eastern Pkwy/Utica (3,4,5)*
Empire Blvd-Remsen Av/Utica
Winthrop St/Utica
Church AV/Utica
Ave. D/Utica
Kings Hwy-Ave. H/Utica*
Flatlands Av-Ave. K/Utica
Ave. N/Utica
Ave. S-Fillmore Av/Utica*
From here H and I trains split with I trains making a stop at Ave.U-Kings Plaza. I will continue on the H line to Manhattan beach a little later.
*=express stops
I agree with you that Kings Plaza and Manhattan Beach both need subway stops but why not just have the L train continue southward all the way to Kingsborough College?
that would be cool too but realistically, it would be like going around Brooklyn just to get into Manhattan. In the long run it would be better to have direct subway service from these neighborhoods to Manhattan.
Actually I don't think so because Kings Plaza and Kingsborough College are Brooklyn to Brooklyn destinations. It doesn't matter how long it takes to get to Manhattan from there.
It sounds as if you're attempting to resurrect the Utica Ave. line which was part of the IND Second System. The never-used shell at the Utica Ave. station on the Fulton St. line bears testimony to that fact. The line was supposed to swing over to Nostrand Ave. at Avenue S and join the IRT Nostrand Ave. line, which was to be extended beyond Flatbush Ave., to Voorhies Ave. Other than that, your plan follows the original pretty closely.
Thank you very much! Im glad that you took notice in my work. Hopefully Transit Authority would one day see it that way too instead of adding buses to the B46 route. They could extend the 3 to go down Utica. They started to do it couple of decades ago. I wused to live near the Utica Ave stop (3,4) and you can see where the work had begun to curve the line under Utica Av.
Hi, 3TM. I grew up at Midwood & Utica, leaving the area in 1964. We had always heard of plans to build a subway down Utica Av, which I had assumed would be IRT. I assumed (or was told) this becuase I knew of the stub-end express tracks on Eastern Pkwy east of Utica Av.
I've never heard before, however, that work had already begun! Where? Was the line supposed to diverge from Eastern Pkwy before or after stopping at Utica? I always figured the line would turn down Rochester Av. after stopping at Utica, and then return to Utica Av. along East New York Av.
Anyone have any further info about this?
There were plans for the South Fourth Subway an IND offshoot from 2nd Av on the F line. All the way down Utica Av to Flatbush and Av U. Head for the JOEKORNER website for complete details. I can't find the complete address for this site but it gives complete info with track diagrams.
If someone can whip up the website and post it, please do.
The website is
http://home.earthlink.net/~joekor/indexnew.htm
Happy surfing!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thank you anon_e_mouse!!!! Now I can write it down again.
There was also a less elaborate plan put forward by the MTA in 1968-69 that would have run from Eastern Parkway-Utica Avenue down to Avenue U. This would have been an IRT-based extension. This was one of a number of subway projects that vanished during the fiscal crisis of the 1970s.
The Utica Av Line was proposed as a two and three track subway and elevated line south to Flatbush Av and poosibly beyond.Provison was made for the line by wall pockets cut into the south wall of both levels just east of the station.(ERA NYD Bulletin Apr 64).
Regards,Larry
If you take the New Lots bound 3, you can see where there was suppopsed to be a turn off. It is right after you leave Utica. In fact you can see it from the front of the train.
Thats where I got my ideas from. Im glad you notice that.
As a regular rider of several lines through Times Square (mainly the N, R and 1 trains) I noticed last night spray paint markings all over the floor with the words "Phase 1" "Phase 2" and "Phase 3" in various areas. Also I spotted what looked like the outlines of a booth near the the exit from the IRT platform. I'm asssuming theses marks have to do with renovation... anyone know when it will start?
Mike
Mike- I was working at the complex last night (Friday Night/Saturday AM). There is already behind the scenes work going on. The heavy work should start within the next several weeks. As I get or see info, I'll pass on.
Already the stores in the BMT mezzanine have been told the end of the month is moving day and some new plywood is already up.
The utility relocation work on Seventh Ave started last week. The work is done at night. Seventh Ave fron 41-42 Sts will be opened up for the construction of a new mezzanine.
This comes from a train operator at BMT Times Square:
R train will got to Jamaica Center
E train returns to 179
G train stays at Court Square 24 hours/7 days
Q train goes to 71/continental via 63rd.
A sidebar: When the 63rd street trackwork is done the F will stay at 179(the source was the pick), Look for the Q to serve 63rd street weekdays, The B on weekends, and the 6av shuttle overnight.
The train operatior had no info on the proposed V train and no info the the W train.
I did get permission to post the info
The NYCT is going to chock the Queens Lines will all those services on 4 tracks. The only grace is that G trains will terminate at Court Square station. I'll bet the crosstown riders will not be happy. Court Square is now being resignaled by Alstom (former GRS) and the Impulse as the prime contractor.
The Queens line, as has been stated before, is limited more by the 53st and 60st tunnels than by the services it provides. If you can run what amounts to additional F service through the 63st tunnel, and/or additional (or even ALL) R service through the 63st tunnel (where it won't have to mix with N trains) You can significantly increase the number of trains you can run on the line.
-Hank
If they ever get the Broadway express going again, R service through 63rd would be impractical, since it would require the R and N to swap tracks at 57th St.
Whether or not they would run a Q express service via Broadway and 63rd after (if ever) the Manhattan Bridge reopens we'll have to see.
It seems that the Q would be going local on QB since the Q will terminate at 71-continental. My question is if the R, terminating at Jamaica Center will be local or express... Any ideas?
If the R stays in the 60th St. tunnel, it will stay local, since there's no direct connection from there to the express tracks, as there will be from 63rd St. The only problem there in the long term is when the Manhattan Bridge finally opens and they switch the Q back to Broadway, both local lines between 71st Continental and Queens Plaza would be going down the Broadway line.
If the E (now an express from Jamaica Ctr) moves back to 179, I don't think riders would be too happy with R taking the E's place as a local, since they've become accustomed to the express service. We've seen the postings on SubTalk recently about E crowding. I would imagine there would be considerable complaining...
If E goes back to 179 with F, does this imply that one of these lines will be express east of 71-Continental during certain times of the day, if not full time? The tracks and riders are there - seems to make sense.
If both R and Q are going to be on B'way someday, and Q returns to express status, this would seem backward since Q would be express in Manhattan, local in Queens, while R would be the opposite (unless R and N switch status in the future). In that case, it doesn't seem to make sense to have both R and Q as Manhattan expresses.
Confused? Me too!
I'm not much on the mathematics of scheduling, but is there any way that the Queens Boulevard line could tolerate three expresses during the rush hour (and possibly the midday period as well), the way that Sixth Avenue currently does? I think the better solution would be to run the Q (as Broadway) to Jamaica Center and make it a Queens express, and leave the R as it is. The local trip from Jamaica Center would not sit well, since most of these folks have Manhattan as their destination and are used to express service. As for the other local, either keep the G or create the V service that's been talked about, making either it or the F express in Brooklyn. As for 179th Street, go back to the way it used to be: F express service to 71st-Continental, with attendant E local, which worked quite well for many years.
These are my own opinions, not that of NYCT or its agencies.
Wayne
My understanding is you can't run more than 30 trains on a track, so you could run three services as long as they had 10 trains each. But you'd have to match them up with service in Brooklyn.
The whole idea here is to put more people on the local, and not people riding all the way from Jamaica after having taken a bus. Part of it is running all the locals to Manhattan. Another part, in my opinion, is making Roosevelt Ave a local-only stop at rush hour. People already close to Manhattan would get locals, those further out would get expresses.
The whole idea of running the E to JC in the first place was to give the folks coming off the LIRR an express to the City,Right?? Or am I miising the point here? Otherwise they would've extended the R or G in the first place??
as far as the Q is concerned, an express to Broadway (thru 63rd) would PROBABLY take some of the pressure off the F & E;same way that a Broadway exp over the Man. Bridge would take some of the pressure off ALL the 6th ave lines...(BUT...which line would be express on the Brighton??)
And you guys thought the MTA had it easy......
(Idea of the E to JC) I think the idea was
a) to encourage the expansion of Jamaica as a business hub by making it easy for people from Western Queens and Eastern Brooklyn to get there for shopping
b) to allow a quick ride to Midtown Manhattan for SE Queens residents transferring from buses (hence the E express) and
c) to divert some of those people from the crowded Queens Blvd line to the Broadway line, if they are going to Lower Manhattan. I'm not sure that a) and c) worked. I don't think anyone expected LIRR riders to switch to the subway, unless they work off Queens Blvd or a strike is on.
OOPS! Youre right about that..I actually was thinking buses but typing trains.....
In my opinions is that if the 63st and manhattan bridge reopen in 2001, The R should stay the way they are to 71st Continental local, the F should run express to 179st, the Q should run local to 179st, and E should run express to Jamaica Center. If they open 2nd Avevne in the future they should put the V run to 125st or somewhere in the bronx. That my opinions
The V is already set to be a service 'via Sixth Avenue' as it says on the signs. We'll most likely see a V train when the 63st connection opens. Not so likely would be the W, which is sign for the Astoria Line. I figure we'll see this when and if the Manhattan Bridge fully reopens, as it would likely replace what had been (pre-closure) two seperate N services, an express from Brooklyn to 57st, and a local from Queens to Whitehall St.
-Hank
I shiver if the R goes to Jamaica Center and the E returns to 179 St. Those passengers affected wouldn't be too happy to say the least. Getting a local service thru Queens on a poor performing line.
Why would the R go to JC for anyway? I think that they should leave it the way it is. I do feel for the G train riders though. Their subway line is getting reduced to nothing. I hope that the Transit Authority would extend the G to Church Ave of Kings Hwy and make the F express. The G train have enough problems already.
I wonder if the E will be full time throught 53rd Street while the F will run through 63rd Street full time (24 hours). You will expect 24 hour service through each tube.
Perhaps the Q will run express from Brighton to Continental via 63rd Street, local in Queens. (6am to 9PM as it is now) Or maybe even Express in Queens.
Perhaps the V will run something like the old EE, it will run i'm thinking local from 179 through 63rd Street down Broadway,terminating at Whitehall Street. This would only be a rush hour service.
As well, the E and R would remain the same with the G being shortlined to Court Square 24/7 (the G plan stated here is what is proposed by the TA).
Feel free to comment.
I had this same discussion about a couple days ago with another subway buff. I figure that the Q will run express from Brighton to 71-Forest Hills. It would run on the Broadway line. Now this is where its get tricky. I figure that there would be alternating F's that would terminate at 57th St and 179th. I spoke to somebody else and they figure that it should be the B train that terminate at 57th St and alternate at rush hours to Bedford Park Blvd. What do you think?
Nothing will terminate at 57st once the 63st connection is finished, because there will be no place to turn the trains without disrupting service. 57/6 is one lead to the 63st tunnel, and of the 4 tracks at 57/7, 2 go to the 60st tunnel, and the other 2 go to 63st.
-Hank
I think that a line should run on Northern Blvd. in Queens and run on second ave with a second ave line running to the 3rd ave elevated line in the Bronx. And I think the R should run to Staten Island. Does anyone have coments on it
Aside from the fact that there is no 3rd avenue elevated line anymore?
[I think the R should run to Staten Island]
I believe at one point a tunnel was started but was quickly abandoned when the Staten Islanders made it clear they do not want the subway there. If Staten Island ever said they wanted the subway, it would be done within a year.
I think it was John Hyland who had more to do with the Staten Island tunnel not being built than anyone else.
BTW, the Queens express tracks run under Northern Blvd between the 36th St. and 65th St. stations.
[I think it was John Hyland who had more to do with the Staten Island tunnel not being built than anyone else]
There could be no John Hyland without Staten Islanders who vociferously do not want the NYC subway on their turf.
You know, I think I misspelled his name. Wasn't it Hylan?
Yes - but we knew who you meant.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Someone in Staten Island must have liked what he did to the BRT or on something, since they named that boulevard after him.
Hylan was, in fact, a BRT motorman who was fired. As a result, he bore a long-standing grudge against the BRT and private subway operation in general.
[Hylan was, in fact, a BRT motorman who was fired. As a result, he bore a long-standing grudge against the BRT and private subway operation in general.]
Just for the record, this story about Mayor Hylan and the BRT *may* be true, but on the other hand it also may be in the realm of Urban Legend. Proof one way or the other is lacking.
It's no Urban Legend. John Hylan was a BRT motorman who was fired for hitting (slugging) a supervisor. He was provoked, but........
You are correct, it's a known fact that Mayor Hylan had been fired from the BRT in his younger days. What may be an Urban Legend is the claim that this experience translated into a bias against transit when he was mayor.
The version I heard was that while studying his law books and operating a train, he brushed an open tower door, with the supervisor behind it. I've heard it with and without the law books, with and without the tower door, but I've never heard of it being an actual hand-to-face action.
-Hank
As opposed to the many 'Marketing' misspellings of it? I've seen Highland Blvd (there is a Highland Ave), Hyland Blvd, Hiland Blvd, Hylen Blvd....
What takes all when it comes to marketing errors was the Home Depot's flyers. When they first opened, they placed themselves at Forest Ave near the SIE. Their ads had them on Forest between South and Richmond Aves.
-Hank
The BMT tunnel to Staten Island was not finished due to the economics involved with the bankrupt company doing the construction, and tthe great depression. Now, most islanders will SAY they want it, but they'll also say they don't want it running within 5 miles of their homes.
-Hank
NYCT will have a service plan which will get the maximum productivity out of the motormen & conductors when the 63rd St. extension opens. They're working on it to be sure.
do you have inside information?
The B train will continue to operate to Bedford Park and 145. There is no way they can turn B trains at 57th Street without a relay track. If they turned B's at 57 it could (and most likely would) plug F service to and from Queens.
That's not right. They were turning B's and Q's to Queensbridge last year from 57th Street.
But only with 57th Street as a north terminus. If you recall any shuttle at that time ran from 57th Street and 7th Avenue.
[But only with 57th Street as a north terminus. If you recall any shuttle at that time ran from 57th Street and 7th Avenue.]
Actually there was no shuttle running at that time. The B and Q were running directly up 6th to the 63rd Street Tunnel. And for a time the F was also going to Queensbridge on late nights. For a while there was a Shuttle late nights that ran from 2nd Ave up 6th and then on to Queensbridge.
I'm sorry Josh, maybe I missed your point in a few previous messages but the gist of what I got was that you said that alternate trains B/F would terminate at 57th Street. My point was that this would be an operational nightmare as it could plug the trough trains that go on to Queens or downtown. If a train pulls in at 57th Street northbound, lets say a B train it becomes the last stop. There is an F to Queens right behind it. Now the southbound crew gets on but has to wait because there is a southbound F train from Queens arriving at 57th Street. Now the leaving southbound B is delayed because it will follow the F (not to mention it has to cross the switch which takes a few extra moments) but now the northbound, Queensbound F which has been waiting to go on to Queens has to wait even longer. It has a potential for big delays even during non-commission hours. When 63rd Street opens all the way to Queens Boulevard, they will only have through trains.
And as for the scenario you said occured, the only timethis may have occured was during a G.O. (General Order which is track work, with a service diversion.
Hmm, looks like there's a lot of confusion going on here. Just to clarify some things:
As Josh said: Before the trackwork was begun on 63rd street, no trains terminated at 57th/6th ave. All went to Queensbridge:
Q midday and rush hours
B evening and weekend
F late nights
Nothing at the time terminated at 57th/6th. With current line configurations, nothing will terminate there after the 63rd street connector is reopened. Q trains would remain on 6th Ave.
(Everything you read from here on is mostly speculation on my part):
When/if the Manhattan bridge opens either later or at the same time, the Q might be rerouted back up the Broadway express through 57th/7th, and as a result, NOTHING would stop at 57th/6th. That's the problem stated about five posts up.
(And to add to the question... what would they do with the B in evenings and weekends in this scenario?)
No, the V would stop at 57th/6th.
I too always wondered what they will do with the B on evenings and weekends. It would be awkward to have it running uptown sometimes, and to Queens sometimes.
Perhaps replace it as well with the V on the West End
They may get wacky on the weekends and run the V to 21st st Queensbridge with absolutly no through service to Queens. It sounds odd not to have a through service on this brand new tunnel, but Operations and Planning does some odd things from time to time.
I also said previously (if you followed the thread )that there was never a shortlined service to 57th STreet while other trains went through to Queensbridge. It's an operational pain in the behind.
I had thought of that too-- perhaps the connection would only be for weekdays, and the B would continue to run to 21st. Or another thought was that the F would use the connection all other times. Maybe they'll decide to send the B uptown weekends as well.
how would operating the E/F/Q/R when the 63rd street connector is complete alleviate congestion when you now have E/F/G/R operating through Queens Plaza ?. Once the project is completed G service will terminate northbound at 23rd ely/Court Square 24/7. Something going through to 23rd ely will have to make local stops to make up for losing the direct service either E or the F. The Q or newly created V will operate express bypass Queens Plaza all together with its congestion and the 53rd st tube. any other scenarios?
Although it would make more sence to run one express through the 53rd St. tunnel and one through 63rd St., it wouldn't surprise me to see the MTA keep the E and F as expresses and use the Q or V as the G local replacement, since that would require fewer track shifts and less delays at Queens Plaza swtiching the E or the F over from the local track.
Of course, this means G passengers going currently to or from local stops between Continental and QP will have to make two train changes -- either to the E or F at Roosevelt Ave. or Queens Plaza, and then another change at 23rd-Ely to the G. It also means that local passengers between Roosevelt and QP would only be able to take the N, since the Q and V will veer off past 36th St.
None of this would have happened if they had used the original plan to use the LIRR right of way for the 63rd St. line, but then you get into building/converting track to subway-only use or the subway would run afoul of FRA regulations.
None of this apparently was thought through back in the late 1960s. The sins of William Ronan live on 30 years later...
Oohps, sorry about the wrong line listing. I meant the R local between Roosevelt and QP not the N. I was reading Eric B's post and had a flashback.
Why is the new 6th Av service going to be called the V train? What's wrong with using a closer letter to B, D, and F, such as H, K, or even T that we need too many letters? I think it's because the roller cutains have orange V signs. Does anybody know what color H, K, and T are on the sign curtains? (Are they the same as on this website's bullet page?)I would like to know, do all B-division cars have orange V signs (I know the retired R-30, R40 Slant, and R-68 do, but what about the others?)
Anyway, here's what I think should happen to the V train once the 63rd Street line is connected to the Queens Blvd line (curse the evil FRA demons and their stupid little archaic regulations that will keep the subways from ever expanding in Queens on anything other than a multi-billion-dollar new underground subway!):
The V train should operate from 71st/Continental local in Queens to the 63rd Street connection to 6th Avenue in Manhattan. Local in Manhattan under 6th through the Rutgers Street tunnel and local in Brooklyn to Church Avenue. The G could also be extended to Church. This would pacify those who might complain about losing a one-seat ride to Manhattan if the G is extended to Church and the F is made an express.
Perhaps it might start off as a weekday operation but if there is a need for it, the V might also run at other times. If the V operates weekdays only, maybe the F could replace it in the 63rd Street tunnel, stopping at 57th/6th, Lex/63rd, Roosevelt Island and 21st/Queensbridge at other times (unless, of course, the E & F lines see the same horrible overcrowding under 53rd Street on the weekend that they do during the week)
Of course this all depends on whether the Manhattan Bridge reopens and the Q returns to Broadway. (Welcome home!) But if that does not happen, the Q can simply provide the service described above (the Q would be local in Manhattan now). Maybe then the G could stay the way it is now and the Q can run express all the way to 179/Jamaica. To make up for the loss of Q service on the Brighton Line in Brooklyn, run the M express to Brighton Beach, which would once again give Brighton Line riders a fast one-seat ride to Lower Manhattan. (Does the M really need to duplicate the B on the West End Line?)
AFAIK, the only letter of the ones you mentioned that is on the roll signs is H. None of the others are. There is no 'I' because it could be confused on a map with the '1'. K has been used in the past, and may se a future. 'O' just sounds, well, odd; and it also looks like a 'Q'. 'T' has been used, and I think is on some signs along with 'P' and 'U' as a small black letter in a white circle. As for 'X' and 'Y'.....
-Hank
The T was the pre-Chrystie St. BMT Broadway/West End Express. I have a feeling that there may be a reincarnation of this routing in the future; hence the letter T found on rolling stock today.
[To make up for the loss of Q service on the Brighton Line in Brooklyn, run the M express to Brighton Beach, which would once again give Brighton Line riders a fast one-seat ride to Lower Manhattan. ]
That would be a much needed service improvement. I don't why that was originally removed but the Brighton Line is in desperate need of added express trains.
The M was removed from the Brighton line in 1986, I think, when the B/D tracks on the Manhattan Bridge were shut down and Brighton Line rehabilitation began. There was a skip-stop D/Q service on the local tracks until late 1988 when the B/D tracks were reopened and the N/Q tracks were closed off. That was when the present D local/Q express service began. But they should definitely bring the M back to Brighton and run it express. The M was local weekdays in the past with the D substituting evenings, nights and weekends.
I think the current plan is to simply extend the Q into Queens (I prefer to use the V to Church and the Q return to Broadway, as you said.)
H and K are blue on the signs, (H is Rockaway shuttle, and K is the AA local), except for the 110B, which has a gray K, which was a proposed 14th St-Canarsie Skip-stop.
When the new single letter were assigned on new signs in the 80's, the V was from the beginning reserved for 63rd St, replacing the original K which went from 57th St to the Jamaica line when the letter was taken for the AA.
V is on all signs now
T is only on r-32/38 signs, in white. I wish they would put yellow T's on all the signs so it can be the West End again when the Manhattan Bridge switches sides, instead of having a yellow B, running separate from the regular orange B. They should use U to replace the yellow D, or at least use the W for the Brighton local.
Wait...the Manhattan Bridge is switching sides. You mean they're going to shut down the 6th Avenue tracks again when they reopen the Broadway tracks. Is there no way that bridge can have all four tracks open at once without it falling into the East River? Maybe it's time to consider a new tunnel ($$$$). Let's at least hope the B and D don't get terminated at 34th Street like last time and can go all the way to Grand Street.
Well, if that does happen, I agree that the Broadway Express/West End Local should be the T train and the Broadway Express/Brighton Local should be the W train (the V would be the 6th Av Local to Church Av via the Rutgers St Tunnel). It certainly would be much less confusing than both orange and yellow B's and D's (in fact I even saw some of the Broadway B's and D's marked with the 6th Av signs). Can you imagine how confusing it would have been if there was both a red 2 and a green 2 during the Lenox Av Tunnel reconstruction?
You can only have one service going to Grand St. And at that limited service. This is because of the track configuration/switches, a single track operation would be required on the Brooklyn bound track from north of Bway Lafayette to Grand St. station.
Thanks for pointing that out. That must be why they had the B and the D trains turning at 34th when their bridge tracks were out of service. I guess there was no reason to turn the B and D at West 4th since they already connect with the A, C, and E before there.
As a matter of fact, that is precisely what was initially done when the north side tracks were closed in the mid-80s. I remember hearing an announcement at W. 4th St. that all B and D trains were terminating there. When I asked the conductor what was going on, his initial response was, "Where've you been?" When I told him I was from Colorado and used to come into the city quite often, he then explained what was going on with the bridge. He was pretty cool about it. That explained why I was seeing B and D trains on the Broadway express tracks; I thought I was seeing things! Later on, they started turning 6th Ave. B and D trains at 34th St.
Thanks for clearing this up. So it was the K replacing the AA that brought about a V service. Now I see why using V for the new 6th Av service makes sense (if Broadway service is restored to the Manhattan Bridge). The reason I asked was because it doesn't seem right to be skipping so many letters (except I, O, P, and U; I and O can be confused with 1 and 0 and jokes can easily be made about P or U and all four sound funny anyway). I guess that was the same reason why a 9 was paired with the 1 for skip-stop service north of 137th Street as opposed to an 8, which from what I've heard is green for Lexington Av service.
Does the M really need to duplicate the B on the West End Line you ask? The line is rather crowded. I don't think the B could handle the crowds by itself. Also you want the M to run express to Brighton Beach to make up the loss of the Q. Most Brighton riders go to midtown, not lower Manhattan, so an express won't do them any good. Plus, ridership surveys taken before the M was switched from the Brighton to the West End showed more than 50% of the riders changed trains before the M arrived into Manhattan. Finally, the M can only run 8 60 foot cars. The Q runs 10 60 foot cars. The Brighton is crowded, 10 cars are needed, and the M doesn't have too much service. In the days of the Brighton M, the QB was needed to make a 1 to 1 service ratio with the D.
Which is better: having one line every five minutes (ie. 12 Bs) with a transfer option, or having two lines, each every 10 minutes (ie. the B/M) going to/from two different places?
Doesn't that depend on whether you are going to one of the common stops or one of the separate stops?
It's not that simple. Remember, the B can't possibly run on a 5 minute headway because they also have to leave slots for the D & Q from 47/50 Sts. to DeKalb. The combined headway south of DeKalb for the D & Q is similar as the B & M.
I would just like to know the name of the asylum they send the schedulers to after they make the schedule. When you have 3 services combineing on 1 line, each going in a different direction from a central point, where do you start?
-Hank
BMT schedulers did it on Broadway express service for around 50 years and through the Montague Street Tunnel as well with two Broadway locals and one Nassau Street service.
And the Manahttan-bound service through DeKalb in the morning rush hour, with nine services on three tracks, in the 1950s was a lot more complicated than anything being talked about here.
Even on Sunday and holidays during the summers, they handled three expresses on Fourth Avenue, with one stopping at DeKalb and the other two going to the Bridge skipping DeKalb, one to Chambers and one to Broadway.
Fourteenth Street also had three services, all on one track--local, express, and 14th Street-Fulton expresses.
On the IRT, the Steinway tunnels had locals, expresses, and super-expresses from Times Square to Queensboro Plaza, all on one track, also. And prior to 1948, there were Astoria trains mixed in with the Flushing locals and expresses.
In the 1950s, there were Broadway-7th Avenue locals, expresses, and through expresses using one track for a short distance north of 96th.
I've just thought of those off the top of my head--there were probably lots of other instances throughout transit history in the City.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
But then why was M service cut back to rush hours only? And why doesn't the TA take advantage of the unused center track and run either the B or the M in peak direction express service? Are tunnels and platform lengths the reason that M (and J and Z) trains only 8 cars long?
I suggested the M plug the gap vacated by the Q if it were to operate to Church Av so the F could run express and if the N/Q tracks on the Manhattan bridge don't reopen in 2001. Maybe then the D could be the Brighton Express with the M local. You do have a point about West End losing the M train and that most Brighton riders go to Midtown. I guess that means the F is going to remain "the ride of a thousand stops," as somebody else on this site put it, unless the bridge tracks reopen for Broadway service.
If the bridge tracks do reopen in 2001, then the V train would provide the Church Avenue service and the M and the Q can stay where they are now (except that the Q would go to Broadway, not 6th Avenue).
The M was cut back to rush hours because the trains were virtually empty midday even with 4 cars. The amount of people wouldn't fill a bus halfway. The few riders could easily change to the IRT at Pacific St. The TA uses the West End express track when a B or M is excessively late at 36 St. to make up a little time to Bay Pkwy. The running time saved is only 4 minutes. I think too many people would be inconvenienced if they would have to change for a local train if needed if one went express. The JZM line stations can only fit 8 60 foot cars in their stations past Broad St. The same goes for the L. Send the M down the Brighton? The line is heavy. You need 10 car trains there, something the M can't provide.
I beleive I weote in an earlier post that some reasons there is no express service along the West End is that in the morning you have work trains heading home to 38th St yard and while this is a very irregular kind of schedule on some days you have a parade of work trains and some days just a couple. It doesn't make sense to schedule something when it will be disrupted on an almost daily basis. This is another reason why we don't see express service from Kings Highway to Church Av on the F line in the mornings. A parade of work trains heading home make it unworkable.
Why let the F's alternate while you can just let it go through 57/6 and through 63 street to Queens. That saves up all the trouble by alternating.
I doubt that you can have both through service via 63rd St. AND terminating trains at 57th St./7th Ave. at the same time. Either trains will run through (in which case station dwell time must be kept down to avoid backups down the line), or else the station will be used as a terminal (no service to 63rd St. via B'way during certain hours).
Not both during the same time period.
The V is an orange sign, hence it would be Sixth Avenue something. Like I mentioned earlier, it might be the rush-hour express on the Brooklyn end. The W is a Broadway sign.
Wayne
Are the Q going back to Broadway line when the Manhattan Bridge reopen?
Here my opinion when 63st and Manhattan Bridge reopen in 2001
E go express from WTC to Jamaica Center. no local
F go express from Queen Plaza to 179st.
G cut back to Court Square
Q go express from Manhattan Bridge to 57st than local to 179st. If they change the color from orange to gold.
R go local to 71 st Continental Ave
add new line for 6 ave
V go from 57st to Church Ave local If they put F go express from Church Ave to Bergen St both way if they fix Bergen st station.
If they open Second Ave
Q go to 125st second ave or to somewhere in the Bronx.
V go thought 63st than local to 179st.
That my opinion
When the Manhattan Bridge reopens in 2001, the 6th Ave side will then be closed. You have to take that into account.
I think that would be likely once everything is put in place. Remember, the current "Q" replaced the Broadway "QB" - Manhattan Bridge issues forced it onto Sixth Avenue.
Wayne
That's true, initially. That QB was a rush hour service. Today's Q almost mimicks the pre-Chrystie St. Q in terms of hours of operation.
The Q's hours of operation are pitiful. At the very least it should run on weekends.
Hear, hear! What I wouldn't give for a Q express of Slant R40s to take me out to the seaside on the weekends...just hop on at Flatbush Avenue and in fifteen minutes I'm at Brighton Beach, with C.I. just down the road a bit. The D is unbearable as a local; it takes forever, with the molasses-like stupor-inducing R68s...At least with a Slant, you can get from point A to point B in a reasonable amount of time. I hope I run into #4399 once she's back in the CI fold, that car is FAST.
Wayne
I agree.....
Now then....When the R-143's arrive, which trains will they replace.
The slants are gonna be around for alot longer.......right?
(please say yes)
Well, the plan I've heard is that the Slant R40s on the L (that is, cars #4398-4449) are going to Coney Island, and being replaced by R143s. In fact, the R40Ms may get rounded up and shipped to CI as well, being replaced by R42s displaced from the Canarsie. So what we'll be left with is the L running all R143s, the J, M and Z running all R42s and the beefed-up service on the Q getting the 4400-series R40s. The N could also get some of these, as well as the R40Ms. There have been numerous theories on this, and nothing is **chiseled in stone** yet...
But count on the Slant R40 to at least make it to age 40, if not past it.
Wayne
[the beefed-up service on the Q getting the 4400-series R40s.]
What beefed-up service on the Q?
Obviously, no one on this board actually ever sits down on these trains. Those flat seats are the most uncomfortable ones anywhere.
[Obviously, no one on this board actually ever sits down on these trains]
When is there ever room to sit down on these trains?
Put it this way: I rarely, if ever, sit on a subway train. Last fall, I actually sat while on an A train of R-44s out of 207th St., and then only because the view through the cab window was blocked (OK, I was getting tired as well). There was no point in waiting for a train of R-38s, since every train I saw heading in the opposite direction also consisted of R-44s. The real downer was that the train of R-38s I had taken to 207th St. was going out of service for a good night's sleep.
The slant R-40s also have what amounts to be a near-full length storm door window, and thankfully these were retained during GOH. The view is simply too good to pass up! Right, Wayne?
You will NEVER find me seated aboard a Slant R40, even if no one else is aboard. You can find me at the elongated railfan window of the first car in the train, enjoying the view.
As for Josh's comment about Q service in the post-63rd Street connection age, additional trains WILL be needed to provide service along the extended route; PLUS there has been talk of running this line during the daytime hours on weekends as well, but this is not a done deal yet. 48 cars are coming over from the L. This is enough to field four full consists on the Q with eight units left over to share with the N.
If they fix #4427 and #4428 (they both need serious nose jobs, and are sitting in sick bay at CI yard) they'll have enough to fill out the fifth consist.
Wayne /MrSlantR40\
They'll have to go back to Broadway because the 6th Ave side of the Manhattan Bridge will be closed for repairs.
Here's what I think:
It really doesn't make sense to me to have three expresses when one of them essentially goes nowhere(the 'Q').
I think that the 'Q' should go back to Broadway as an express for those poor people!
But it should work like this:
As long as the Manhattan Bridge is out of commision, the B,D and F will still hold 6th, while the N,R and Q take Broadway. Then, at the first opportunity after Union Square, the 'Q' can switch to the local tracks, run under the Montague tunnel to the 'D' tracks at DeKalb and not only keep the only real useful part of it's route(Brighton Express) but help to use the capacity just sitting there on the BMT Brodway.
I've always considered the 'C', 'Q', 'Z' and #9 to routes with the least value. I see the #9 and 'Z' as they only appear to help at rush hour and the 'C' pretty much shadows the 'A'.
Just my opinion.
OK i'm going to take a stab at this. This is my OPinion.
B LINE: Nights and Weekends from Coney Island to 71 St-Continental Local in Queens
E Line: SAME From Jamaca to WTC Express
F Line: from 179 St to Coney Island All times Exp
G Line; From 179 St to Smith 9TH St all times Local
R Line: From Jamaca to 95 St Local
Feel free to comment.
Didn't need the 63rd St tunnel for that. The goal is run a 2nd local, and up to 25 trains, from the Queens Blvd line into Manhattan. Hence, the G is cut off at Court Square, and something else is needed on the Queens Line to Manhattan.
I agree with you 100%. When they were working on the MB in 1995. The Q ran on Broadway as a express after Canal. Im sure it could work like that again.
The C, Q, Z and 9 as the routes with the least value? What are you smoking? Eliminate the C, and all A trains have to go local in Brooklyn. Sure, the Q duplicates 2/3 of the D route, but again, lose it, and you have no Brighton express service. As for the Z and the 9, they're rush hour only trains that decrease train loading past a certain point on their lines. Lose those, and you have more severe crowding on the 1 and J lines as trains make all stops and overfill, especially the J.
As for the Q going back to Broadway, due to the continuing situation with the Manhattan Bridge, I doubt we'll ever see full service on the 6th Av and B'way lines simultaneously. The Montague Tunnel doesn't have the excess capacity for the additional trains, and let's not forget the slowdown of service as trains enter and leave the express tracks south of Prince St, as there are no crossovers between there and 34st.
-Hank
Wayne,
You are absolutely right about the existing colors of the unused letters and what their prospective main line routes would be based upon those colors.
Let me offer another thought. I would hope that when the operations planning folks finally decide what the 63rd Street Service Plan will be, they will do it based upon requirements (what service will best fit travel patterns) and operational efficiency (the best service that can be provided with existing equipment, personnel, etc.). Then provide new signs to fit that service plan.
In other words, build the right service plan first, then get the right signs. Am I dreaming???
That makes perfect sense. Now, do you think you could sell that idea to the MTA?
Steve,
I don't think I could even sell a weather forecast to the MTA!!
Sell an idea to the MTA? Easy! NYC transportation agencies love handing out consultant contracts! I'm sure you can do a "study" of whether to match the routes to the colors or the colors to the routes if you know the right people. Charge a few million and they'll think you're a genius. I'll get they have federal money for studies that they don't know what to do with.
Getting the MTA to accept an idea for nothing -- THAT'S HARD. And getting federal money for actual public works is even harder. If only you had to do an environmental impact statement (ie. trees killed for paper) before doing a study maybe it would be easier to build things.
So what? Remember the R-68 Q signs? They were diamond-yellows, even when they were in the 6 avenue line.
Hopefully if this is true it will run EXP from QP to EOL (end of line), with the switch taking place just after (outbound)/before (inbound) QP. If not, there's going to be a whole lot of p'o'ed folks - having to switch trains at Union Turnpike is NOT the greatest of ideas! Or perhaps they eventually will comeup with the brainstorm of reinventing the K as an alternative!
I think they're holding onto K (not sure of the color) for future Eastern Division use. Any new 6th Avenue service would probably be called V, since they already have the orange signs for it.
Wayne
Since I'm assuming they aren't as common as locals and therefore wouldn't choke the line farther up, why don't they run the 'R' express on Broadway?
And I also think that( if the unused capacity exists) that any new Queens Blvd routes('V' or 'W') be a second crosstown line( running on the 'G' as maybe a skipstop train, and running express to Church Ave).
This way, crosstown riders wouldn't have to transfer at Court Square, but would this render the 'G' useless?
SOURCE: A train operator at BMT Times Square.
The bridge closure will be 4 months this year with more closures next year-- I have been told that the work that needs to be done will be more extensive than first thought. There will be "Several closures over the next few years"
About the Manhattan Bridge: No info known
(Williamsburg work more extensive than first thought). Yet another disaster. I can only wonder what the Manhattan Bridge situation is. Why to the firms which keep saying just another $100 million will fix things keep getting contracts to do more work when they are wrong? They must be thinking they can keep this going forever!
There can be no other closures since the entire support structure is being removed and replaced from Delancy St to west of Marcy Ave. It will be an entirely new structure.
What ever happened to Motorman Al?
I was wondering if anyone knew the history behind the Shuttle to Princeton. Was this part of the original rail line, or did Princeton have it built?
Josh
As far as I know, the Pennsy (or its predecessors) built this as a way to get the college town connected to the NYC-Phila main line. It was an alternative to having the main line swing through the town, with considerable disruption to the straight-line alignment of the Corridor in this area and (possibly) the demolition of part of the college. Anyone know more?
Princeton Branch opened in 1865 by the Camden & Amboy RR extended 3.2 miles,later shortened to 2.7 miles, built it would seem to serve Princeton University and later the football stadium. There is one abandoned station at Penn's Neck. Good source for info is "NJ Transit Rail Operations" by Joel Rosenbaum and Tom Gallo.
Larry,RedbirdR33
A ggod friend of mine went to Princeton, and always referred to it as the PJ&B (Princeton Junction & Back). It's denizens (in the 1950's) was a set of MP54-E2 MU's (motor-trailer) that more or less lived there, except for maintainence and inspections. It would be replace by the same number set of spare E-2's. Being a raifan at Princeton, he got friendly with the regular crew and got to run it.
A few of us went up to see him, going up on the 3:30AM mail train out of Baltimore, which let us off at Princeton Jct. at 6:15 AM. As the PJ&B didn't start until 9:00 AM (this was a Sunday), we were wondering if we would have to walk to Princeton. Suddenly, a headlight appeared, followed by the distintive bleat of an MU air whistle. As the train drifted into the P. Jct. station, we were shocked to see our friend at the contols, with nary a PRR employee around. He yelled down "you didn't think I'd make you walk, did you?" It seems the crew showed him where they stowed the handles, so he borrowed the train to pick up his buddies.
Ah, callous youth!!!
Out of curiosity what is an MP-54-E2? I'm assuming this was a designation for one of the PRR versions? Does anyone have rundown of the PRR MP-54's, their numbers, years built, etc?
I'm not a PRR expert, but here are the basic PRR MU classes:
MP (Motor Passenger) 54 (54 Feet Long)
MP54-E1 - The original MU's of 1914-15 (The Paoli Line)
MP54-E2 - Motor Trailer sets of 54 foot cars. (1918 - 1922?)
MP54-E3 - Combines (1914-1926)
MP54-E4 - Motors (1930's)
MP54-E5 - Motors rebuilt around 1954 with smoother riding trucks and quieter motors.
MP54-E6 - Combines rebuilt as above.
Any of the books on the Pennsylvania electtrification should have more data.
The train is now call "Dinky". Last year I stayed down the road a piece from there to see two baseball games at Trenton & toured the univ, but my three friends aren't train nuts so the closest I got to Dinky was the station at the univ.
Mr t__:^)
Late last night I was waiting for the downtown 1 in the 59ST./Col. Cir. Station and I noticed that there was work being done on the downtown express track just beyond the south end of the platform. I later saw a 2 running on the same track. I noticed that when the (for lack of a better term) "lookout man" spotted the approaching train, in addition to whistling and signaling the workers farther down to move, he moved something on the third rail-side (in this case it was the righthand side) of the track. After the train passed I saw him pull up something that looked a lot like a trip (once again on the right-hand, third rail side). Does anyone know what this switch or whatever it was is for?
-Mike
The "lookout" is officially known as a Flagger; their job is to warn the workers of approaching trains and ensure that they have moved to a safe area before allowing a train to pass thru the work site.
Along with their lamps, flags, and whistle, they use a device called a
Portable Train Stop, which works in the same manner as the Automatic Train Stops used with signals. Should a train not respond to the Flagger's signals, it will open the tripcock, causing an emergency brake application.
Has this ever occured?
In the New Post for Sunday February 21, page 8, is an article about security concerns at City Hall have derailed plans to convert the abandoned City Hall station, the spectacular cathedral-style subway station into a new transit museum, the NY Post has learned.
This is in relation to the other subtalk messages about the City Hall Station.
After the good people of Subtalk have read the article, your thoughts are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
I wonder if what i said in the beginning started this?
But I am happy that everyone knows about it because bad thing to ban people from a place that is part of NY history. I was happy when Bullon 100-95 came out witch let people go around the loop then the mayor changed everything in August. I'm glad the people now know this.
I can't say that this is a big surprise. I had just assumed that the issue was dead at the moment since they won't even let anyone ride through the station. Is it possible that what seems like paranoia came from some actually threat to City Hall in the past? It just seems to be such an over-reaction to what we the public see as nothing. I also had had the impression over a year ago that work had started on the museum branch, yet when we were there (Day One On the IRT), we could obviously see that nothing had been done.
Terror Fears Put Brakes On New Transit Museum
All of this will change once the current whinny, paranoid little baby leaves office.
Everyone should be sure to see the "Then and Now" column in today's Daily News (Feb.21st). A nice little historical blurb about transit in NYC.
You'll have to buy the paper to see the pictures, but you can read the article online:
Then & Now: An El of a Time
I had a collection of the NY Sunday News NY Then and Now articles from the 50's dealing with the els and other NYC transit memories.
One of the most interesting, I thought, was a picture of the 6th Ave El terminal alt 58th ST. I have never seen another picture of that piece of the structure again. I believe that that stub was torn down in the early 30's, long before any of us were born.
I do not suppose that we migh have a correspondent who might have access to those archives, and possibly republish or make some of those "Then" of the Then and Now series of the el structures and other transit topics available to either the transit museum or possibly put them on the Web.
Is the Sea Beach line being reconstructed as a three track line, with the middle track having two-directional signaling? If so, is there any plan to have peak period express service (I realize some station platforms would need to be relocated but it might be possible)? Is there any plan to remove the nearby West End el structure, moving its service (or some form of it) to the newly-reconfigured Sea Beach line?
Mike Rothenberg
Near as I can tell, the idea is to stop maintaining one of the tracks, not to stop moving the other, and to have reroutes. No one has mentioned shutting down the West End.
The single express track will be reverse signalled and will most likely be used for testing of new equipment and emergency reroutes. Think of it as the Dyre Ave. line's counterpart. I don't believe there are any plans for revenue service. Let's just hope it receives proper maintenance and doesn't fall into disrepair.
I am ready to build my powered car of my Image Replicas R21 set. However, I dont' know what is best to power these things. Would powered trucks work, or did you use a specific base from a train? Please tell me what you used to power your subway. Thanks.
I have absolutely no connection to this item or its seller, I just thought some of you might think it was neat.
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=69424361
Is a sign from an IRt Lo-V car for 180th street
I was just thinking. With the R 62 going to be linked and the future R 143 being linked in 5 car units how is the No. 3 line going to link a 9 car train? Currect me if i'm wrong but isn't the back of Lenox Yard only take 9 cars. I know in the section closest to the station can take 10 cars but not the back.
As it stands now, the Lenox-Livonia cars will remain single car units because of the 9 car consist. In addition, Livonia will handle the Grand Central Shuttle as well, since they have an odd configuration of cars....1 track-3 cars
3 track-4 cars
4 track-3 cars.
There was a memo today at Lenox Terminal that said cars were going to be linked at Livonia Yard and put into service on the 3 line.
What cars are going on the 3 line and when?
Does anyone know if when the third rail was still uncovered on the BMT elevated lines back in the 1940's, was it placed closer to the track? I have this feeling that the uncovered third rail was located about six inches closer to the track than the covered third rail in the subway. Is there an expert on this out there?
Probably, until the end of Brooklyn Bridge service, the elimination of most of the Fulton St el, the 5th and 3rd Ave Els and the original Lexington Ave el, other than the subway line built as such, uncovered 3rd rail was the norm until the 60's.
I had posed a similar question last year about what I believe was dual third rail on the Jerome Ave line in the Bronx when the 9th Ave El and the abbrieviated Polo Grounds shuttle connected to the line.
The same question still applies to the original Westchester Ave Route of the now White Plains Rd line when the 2nd & 3rd Ave El connected to that line.
This may also apply to the initial joint BMT/IRT/2nd Ave El usage of the Queens lines off the Queensboro Bridge.
The elevated third rail was 20 inches from and 6 inches above the nearest running rail while the subway third rail was 26 inches from and 3 1/2 inches from the running rail. The els did use an uncovered third rail. The last line to use the uncovered third rail was the Culver Shuttle in 1975.
Regards,Larry,Redbird
Thank you Larry,Redbird - That sounds official enough for me. I am assuming that the end of your first sentence should read 3 1/2 inches above the running rail.
Regards, Karl B
Karl:That is correct.I understand that certain cars had a special kind of shoe that could fit both kinds of third rail. I've read descriptions of it but I would like very much to see a drawing of it as I can't quite picture it.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry,Redbird: Obviously the Standards had no trouble at all. I noticed on several occasions in those days the pick-up shoe or flap was pointed slightly up and it was making contact with the third rail (uncovered version) much closer to the truck side-frame then it did on the covered third rail in the subway. Another observation is that the uncovered third rail was a very much narrower rail (about half the width) than the rail used in the subway. I always thought that the Standards had very little surface contact with the rail due to the angle the shoe touched the rail, more or less on the track side edge. The gate cars' pick-up shoes were designed completely different and set down on top of the narrow rail from a bracket above it on the truck side-frame.
Regards,Karl B
Karl: Thanks, its one thing to read about it,its another to hear from someone who actually saw it. Thanks for the info.
Best Wishes,Larry
Karl: Here's another unsolicited plug for a railfan magazine. The info I provided on the BMT third rail came from an issue of "Headlight" dated Sep-Nov 1975 by Karl Groh. Its an excellent overview of all BRT/BMT routes done in number order(1-16). There are many great photos and a section dealing with both the third rail and the use of 9 foot wide cars on 10 foot wide sections of the BMT.
Best Wishes,Larry,Redbird
This is something that just occured to me and has nothing to do with the subway:
Does the founding of the Duane Reade pharmacy chain have anything to do with the fact that Duane Street and Reade Street are a block away from each other?
Yes, the original store is at Duane & Broadway downtown, a block from my office.
Give that man a cigar!!!
New York City is full of small coincidences like that. They even named the neighborhood and the amusement park after the Coney Island Yard.
Wait a minute. Coney Island got its name from the Dutch, who happened to notice the area was heavily populated by rabbits and named it Konijn Island (sp), or Rabbit Island.
[Wait a minute. Coney Island got its name from the Dutch, who happened to notice the area was heavily populated by rabbits and named it Konijn Island (sp), or Rabbit Island.]
Now I heard something different. "Coney," according to what I've heard, is a archaic version of a familiar English word, one that also begins with the letter C. This word can be found as #4 on George Carlin's list of the seven words you can't say on television. The rabbit connection does indeed exist, apparently by analogy with the tunnels dug by rabbits (or possibly by analogy with their rapid reproduction).
By the way, I'm not making this up. I actually did read it somewhere.
Yesterday i had asked about if anybody know about the subway service plans for the Williamsburg Bridge? If you do please respond?
As far as I know the bridge is out for at least 3 years. And then it's tentative that subway service will resume.
That's a bit extreme. The plan was to shut it down for six months and then it would be fixed "once and for all." But someone said they've found more problems, and will have to shut it down yet another time after next summer to fix it "once and for all."
The bigger problem is the Manhattan Bridge which has been fixed "once and for all" God knows how many times.
The official time is 6 months. It may take up to 8. The new columns are in place and steel will be arriving soon. Some of the pier caps are on site. The new rails and ties are stockpiled on the Manhattan side. The el structure half way to Marcy Ave will be replaced. After the work is done, there will be nothing left to do.
Knock on wood.
Or better, knock on steel. :)
Mike
That mean 75 foots subway cars can go thought williamburg bridge after work are done?
They would bang into the light fixtures in the tunnels, so I hear.
And the curve e. of Essex is a sideswipe problem, so is the curve leaving Myrtle; on the "L", the Graham Avenue curve's too tight.
Wayne
Don't forget the section on the J where it swings over from Fulton St. to Jamaica Ave.
Not a sideswipe problem at Cypress Hills - don't forget, the phantom third trackway is there. Crescent Street, not sure. There's an island platform there. There might just be enough room between the tracks to prevent sideswiping.
As for the Williamsburg Bridge incorrect answer - SORRY BOUT THAT - my poor old addled brain just got confused.
And Graham Avenue (between Montrose and Morgan too) is VERY VERY tight.
Wayne
I made an error. There will be additional closings in 2001. this will be because of construction of the new walkway and entrance building over the tracks.
The new pedestrian walkway on the WillyB is now open and being used. The old one is in the process of being demolished. No more vandals throwing objects or spitting at the trains. No more signal lens' being vandalized.
Perhaps the problem may be that the curves where the line swings over from Fulton St. to Jamaica Ave. may be just plain too tight for 75-foot cars to navigate. Is it possible for the car corners to butt against each other on an extremely sharp curve?
No, the sideswipe problem was only on the eastern end, crossing over Roebling, which looks like it might be eased in the rebuilding. Going into Essex, the tracks are diverging for the middle track, so there should be clearance.
Well, when the northeast side of the Manhattan Bridge was closed back in the early 80s, they ran that reverse D service through the Chrystie St. connection and Essex St. onto the Willie B approach, and then back through Nassau St. and the Montague tunnel. If they could get the R-44/46s through that area back then, they can probably still do it now.
I believe during the time the bridge is being worked on, there will be shuttle buses going across the bridge, much like the 'L' buses on Lenox Ave this summer.
Perhaps if you phrased the question in standard american english, using full sentences.
"English" is supposed to be capitalized, when referring to the language. Sorry, but if you insist on doing it, I can't resist. Otherwise, I'm content to let people write as best they can.
As long as the matter has been raised, I will stop biting my tongue: "American," also, is capitalized all the time in all varieties of English, as is "English." Standard English never puts names of languages, nationalities, and similar words in lower-case. Other languages don't capitalize such uses, but English has for the last two centuries or so. 8-)
Ed Alfonsin
Emeritus
Dept. of English & Communication
SUNY at Potsdam
In addition, your sentence represents an incomplete thought. Your clause beginning with "Perhaps if..." should be finished out, in this case, with a "then"-type statement.
J/Z trains will terminate at Marcy Avenue. M trains will terminate at Myrtle Avenue (as the overnight and weekend shuttle does now). There will be more service on the L/A/c trains for increased ridership at connecting points(M/Myrtle Av....J/Z @ Broadway Junction.
From the south end of Brooklyn you can expect some sort of service to Essex Street using J 3/4 (the middle track) track as the relay (trains coming in and going out of the same track. Unless they decide to relay just north of the station on the edge of the bridge but I can't see this happening.
What about the stations north of Essex Street? How long will the Williamsburg Bridge will be closed? Starting when?
Huh? Essex Street is the ***last** station before the bridge and Marcy is the ***first** station after the bridge. There are no stations where you will not have train service.
The Nassau Street Service will end at Essex and Eastern Division will have service to Marcy.
My bad I was way off when asked that question...........
Will there be a new line to service Nassau? Like the R in a brown color? Where would it operate from?
From what Mike( A train Operator on the M Line) said earlier: Brooklyn M would run to Essex. When Brooklyn M does not run a Nassau Street Shuttle would serve all Nassau Stations from Broad Street to Essex Street.(Includes; Broad, Fulton, Chambers, Canal, Bowery, Essex.) A reminder: Marcy will be served from the Eastern services(J/M/Z)
Marcy ave will be served only by the M line.J line service will operate to Myrtle ave. Z service will operate between Eastern Parkway and Jamaica center in BOTH DIRECTIONS in the A.M AND P.M rush hours instead of the peak direction only.
Wrong, Wrong, Wrong. Z operates rush hours only terminates Eastern Pkwy. J terminates Bway Myrtle all times. M terminates Marcy all times. General Order starts Sunday and continues till 10-31-99 (subject to change): Middle track Marcy Ave. out of service to allow a private contractor to build (and use once the bridge closes in May) a temporary platform over that track to allow access to both sides at Marcy once the bridge closes. Also, rush hour M service from Bay Pkwy to Chambers St. and 7 day a week shuttle service from 6 AM to 10 PM between Essex middle and Broad (Chambers on the weekends).
WIll they put in a temporary booth since the normal set-up there is a booth on each side platform?
They STILL haven't found the few shekels (well, more than a few, but a drop in the bucket compared to the overall) to pay those Tower people so they can keep the Broad and Fulton Street stations open on at the very least Saturdays... What is wrong with this picture?
Wayne
I didn't know the Staten Island Railway was free. Could you have mis-spoken? I knew the FERRY was free, but are we now covering 100 percent of the cost of the SIR as well? If so, that is really unfair to a ridiculous extent.
When i last whent to SI. The only place they collected fares was at ST. George. I saw no conductor collect collect fares. That was during the PM rush and I got off at New Dorp. On the way back during the AM rush i got on at New Dorp on the way to ST. George still No Conductor.
Most of the Riders got off at Tompkinsville and walked to the Ferry Term to avoid paying the fare. At ST. George you have to pay to to get out of the station. I call the SIRT THE FARE BEATERS SPECAL.
Rather than go through the expense of installing MetroCard readers at the Whitehall ferry terminal the SI ferry fare was eliminated (autos still pay)as part of 'one-city, one-fare' plan. On the SIR fare is collected in peak-direction with MetroCard or token at St. George. Technically the service is not free, but if you travel between Tompkinsville and Tottenville fares are no longer collected on the trains, the conductors having been eliminated. Since most traffic is peak direction the MTA figured that not much money would be lost when you figure in the elimination of the fare-collecting conductors. The MTA did not want to go through the expense of installing weather-resistant floor-to-ceiling MetroCard equipment at the SIR stations below St. George terminal.
[On the SIR fare is collected in peak-direction with MetroCard or token at St. George. Technically the service is not free, but if you travel between Tompkinsville and Tottenville fares are no longer collected on the trains, the conductors having been eliminated.]
If I'm not mistaken, Tomkinsville is a long enough walk from St. George that SIR riders going to or from the ferry aren't likely to use Tomkinsville as a way of avoiding the fare. Is that correct?
Depends on the weather. Some, particularly the athletically inclined, will do so. As one of the other posters has surmised, I suspect that the cost of fare collection on the remainder of the system would more than outweigh the loss of revenue.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If fares are still collected at St George, then I can't say that the fact that people could get on and off before then is unfair to those of us in Brooklyn. The SIR is hugely subsidized anyway because of the low density of the areas it serves, and the lack of parking which would allow more people from elsewhere to use it.
If people are walking to the ferry from Tottenville, however, they should put in fare control there as well.
As I've said, better to turn it, and the North Shore line, into a busway which could be extended over the Verrazano and up a rebuilt Gowanus. Then people could board buses throughout the island, then have the buses get up on the busway and run to the ferry or direct to Manhattan. With new, non-diesel buses, the neighborhood impact would not be great. Why have a ROW which serves only one low density corridor, with one train every 10 mintues?
Anybody who walks from Tompkinsville to St. George must be unbearably cheap and miserable. (Anybody who walks the 14 miles from Tottenville is insane). The non-peak SIR headways are 30 minutes during the daytime, 60 minutes late night.
The north shore ROW is slated to be developed for freight service and has already been re-habed from South Avenue southward to near the Con Ed plant. No freight service is currently operating though an operator has been picked. The lift-bridge north of the Goethals is being re-habed now. The NJ section of the line is in jeopardy because of a complicated dispute with Union County, NJ regarding the ROW and nature of service through their towns to the Cranford junction.
Thompkinsville isn't really that long a walk from the terminal -- long stairway up from the platform, but the distance once you get to the top (at the foot of Victory Blvd.) is equivalent to about seven blocks in Manhattan, which some people have to walk in other areas just to get to the subway.
MTA probably needs to check and see if the fares they lose by the walkers is greater than the cost it would take to set up and maintain a fare control operation at Thompkinsville.
Just to clarify something: SIRT fares are collected at Saint George at all times entering and leaving the trains. Fares are not collected on trains anymore so you can ride for free between Tomkinsville and Tottenville. (Does anyone remember when the Rockaways had a two fare zone and it was necessary to put a token in the turnstile to leave the station, getting on you put two tokens into the turnstile)
Regards,Larry,Redbird
Most rush-hour trains don't stop at Tompkinsville. It is also currently under construction, with only one door on the last car of the train being opened for access, with a temporary exit at the east end of the station. From there, it is approximately a 3/4 mile uphill walk to the ferry. Despite what is being implied here, I have never seen more than 10 people geting off a St. George-bound train at this station at any time. There are unusual boarding levels at the station for Tottenville-bound trains. Oddly, there are people who get off Tottenville-bound trains here.
When I went to Curtis HS (and some freinds of mine attended nearby McKee HS) in St. George, we would get off the train at Tompkinsville and then walk up St. Marks Pl to get to school, after stopping for breakfast. In the afternoons, we'd charge down Wall St and down the parking access ramp to get to the train.
-Hank
Goodness, gracious.....I came into work a little late today and did the typical N20 bus to #7-Flushing subway to Times Square and E train down to West 4th Street. Same route each day but a different time of travel. There seemed to be an abnormally large number of youth in my subway car (E-train) this morning. Usually, this is not a problem with me but today several of the youth (males and females) were arguing and shouting. The filth from their mouths was sickening. No common decency whatsoever. I never experience this on trains during peak hours. Why aren't these teenagers in school anyway (it was 10am)? Why were they on a WTC-bound E train when the schools are in other directions? Something tells me that truancy is a big problem in Manhattan. Fortunately, I don't get to see this during my typical travel patterns.
Francine
Unfortunately, unruly youth on transit (not just subway) has been a problem since transit was invented. I was on our Light Rail today (@8:45 AM) and there were a few U Y on the car that talked loudly, about subjects that really belonged at a private party, to the general irritation of the other passengers. One of the U Y's was a young woman who was 7 months pregnant (this was announced in the general loud conversations. (Note: she did not know who the father was.) 'Nuff said!
I can remember U Y on school trippers on streetcars in Baltimore 40 years ago.
I also suspect that some of those U Y's of 40 years ago are now solid citizens who rail about unruly youth (a.k.a. G** D****** kids).
How about the infamous "rocking the streetcar by having lots of teenagers jump from one side of the car to the other" stunt, usually performed on weekday afternoons and always performed on streetcar lines serving high schools?
This is outside my personal experience (I was born 14 years after streetcars were totally phased out in my city), but I've heard this story from more than one relative who went to the same high school as me (Saint Patrick, at Belmont & Austin in Chicago, an all-boys school) but in the 1950s.
That alway a problem. There are lots of times were Unruly Youths start trouble in the Train Operator and Conductors cars. Once on a saturday afternoon on the No.6 Line leaveing Grand Central a woman tells me there 8 Youths harrassing her. I figured that they would get off at 51 St. so why call it in. So i said just sit by the cab. The youths did get off at 51 St. But the worst thing I ever Experenced was on the No.5 Line at E Tremont Ave. I had unruly youths beating up on women and children back in 1993. It started on a Downtown No.2 Train. It was the 15:15 241 St. The train crew called Control about the problem so E 180 holds the No.2 train for Police. I was the 1531 DYRE on the flyover. E 180 told me to proceed into E 180 St on M TK.
So everyone runs off the No.2 and gets on my train. So as I left E 180 St the Conductor yells on the PA Train Operator help someone being attacked! Well to make a long story short It toke 20 Mins for police to arrive and E 180 tower had to call Control over it.
I bet conductors and engineers have a "joyous" time driving the #7 Flushing line. This must be one of the busiest subway lines in the city yet I have NEVER heard of any violence on this line. I am totally comfortable riding #7 trains at any time of the day or night....and have frequently rode trains after midnight. The very few problems I have had over the years were on the E trains (in Jamaica on a Sunday- never forget that ordeal), one time on a A train at East New York station and one time on a 2 train under Lenox Avenue stuck in a tunnel. All male teenagers horsing around and getting a bit too frisky.
Francine
I agree with you about the No.7 line. That was one of the best lines I've worked. But you need real high senarity to work that line.
Admittedly, unruly youth are no picnic, but perhaps my worst experience was with an unruly adult on an NJT train. He boarded going into NYC at New Brunswick and just went on and on, spouting off about anything and everything, insulting anyone who asked him to be quiet. I asked a conductor to do something and got a look as if I had the plague. It was awful and things improved greatly at Newark, when he left the train.
The same day, on my return from NYC back to Trenton, guess who boarded the same car I was on when the train pulled into Newark? You got it. He and I shared the center door vestibule and he was quiet until we left Elizabeth. Then the insults, etc started again. Racial epithets, you name it. I asked for a break. I got insulted. I asked a conductor to do something - same look, and I get told I should move. At Linden, just before the doors closed, I made my move, and shoved the guy off the train. Many of the other riders on the very crowded car cheered. Thankfully, I never saw the guy again.
I have experienced the nuisance caused by less than curteous teenagers, usually on the Market-Frankford El in Philly during the evening rush.
I notice however that this isn't a real problem on the Broad St. Subway, but what is noisome is the volume of the headphones on the trains. It can drown out the sound of the train when going into Fern Rock(the only above ground station on the line).
As has also been my experience, kids on the subway at 10 AM are up to no good anyway, so I wouldn't expect much.
I had occasion to ride the subway-surface into town from West Phila a couple of weeks back at about 2:30 PM. I noticed two transit policemen at 22nd St eastbound, along with a large group of school students who, as luck would have it, boarded my car. They were mainly quiet but made it a point to strut their stuff and their loudness to "impress" a few riders on the car. I had seen problems at 22nd before (I guess there is a high school or junior high nearby?). However, it didn't seem to make too much sense for both policemen to remain on the platform when the crowd boarded the car. I would have thought that one of them would have ridden with the group.
As I recall, Greenfield(which I think is a middle school) is on 22nd and Chestnut.
I think you're correct. Someone also advised me that there is a magnet school nearby in addition to Greenfield. At one time, Greenfield was somewhat of an elite public school. I guess times have changed.
I make it my business to try and blend in with the rest of crowd (if there is one), should a crew come storming into my car. I was on a southbound #5 train between 125th & 86th last time this occurred - I merely stood still with my back to the door and my right hand in my breast pocket (fingering my friend Sgt. Pepper) and they passed through like a summer storm. There was quite a bit of head shaking and muttering among the passengers but nothing really happened. Then there was the incident on the northbound #4 where a group of five tried to rob a guy in the car ahead of me. I bailed out of there quick (Mt.Eden Avenue) because the fur began to fly - they didn't count on the pigeon having some help from his fellow passengers.
Wayne
Wayne, I too had help during my ordeal one Sunday afternoon on a E train pulling into Archer/Jamaica Transfer Center station in Jamaica. Some unruly high school types had bumped into me while I was standing next to a stancion in the second car of the train. I was jerked off my guard and my head hit the pole. One of the "punks" looked me up and down and said some racial comments (I was the only white rider in the car) while I tried to regain my composure. Two women approached me and asked if I was alright and helped me sit down for a moment. The kids darted to the first car and the train finally came to a stop at the last station in Jamaica. Fortunately, I proceeded on my way without further incident. I have been on the E train in SE Queens only one other time since then- but if I can avoid it, I will at all costs.
Francine
Your lucky you didn't get killed out there. If you are white Jamaica is not really a place for your type. I would never even think about going there unless I had to and I'm not even white. The E train is very tricky. Be very careful next time.
I found myself riding in the first car of a Rockaway Park bound S Last night at about 3:30am. There were 3 kids about 16-17 who were smoking in the second car. They then lit a newspaper on fire on the floor, and exited the train at Playland. I alerted the motorwoman, who I knew, but there was nothing she could do about it. These Shuttles are deteriorating rapidly. One had scratches on every seat, and another had Fu*k the police written about 55 times all over the car in permenant magic marker. However, there is no way to stop it. It is a 4 car train, and I have never seen more than 8 people on it between 1am and 4am.
If it's becoming a problem for the equipment, why don't they just can it between 0100 and 0500 (or 0600) and run a shuttle bus from Beach 67th Street-Gaston Avenue?
Wayne
[(re Rockaway Park Shuttle) If it's becoming a problem for the equipment, why don't they just can it between 0100 and 0500 (or 0600) and run a shuttle bus from Beach 67th Street-Gaston Avenue?]
I'd say that the TA is gun-shy about any sort of service shutdowns after the Franklin Shuttle affair. Even though replacing the FS with buses would have been the better choice for a variety of reasons, neighborhood outcry was so fierce that the TA decided to spend millions on its renovation. They're probably concerned that something similar, even though on a much smaller scale, would occur if the Rockaway Shuttle were to be replaced with buses at night.
I totally symphasize. We have problems here in Toronto as well, but nowhere close to being comparable with what you observed.
Commissioner-on-the-way out David Gunn was quoted saying "we are on the verge of a New York style problem" when faced with the TTC's 1998 budget wherein over 700,000 dollars was spent replacing glass on subways and buses (we have tempered glass, not plastic).
The scratched glass angers me, because one, it's extremely irritating and abhorring to look at (at least for me), and two, it reveals that vandals in Toronto have crossed to a higher level of destructiveness. The damage is irreversible. It cannot be washed off or repaired. The glass has to be completely replaced, and although TTC gets some reimbursement for the returned glass, it comes nowhere near the cost of the actual replacement panes (which are manufactured by Prelco).
Trains have to be taken out of service for this procedure, and this leads to lapses in service. This destructive behaviour has led to it being a central factor in the fare hikes i'm going to be enjoying this May.
I hope someone invents a kind of "glass iron" that would allow for beads of glass to be melted into the cracks of the tempered glass. But I guess that would ruin the structural integrity of it.
Oh well. I digress. I used to be a teen, but i'm old now so I can bitch at those who are young. yay for me.
I wonder if there is a sort of tempered glass which is so hard that only a diamond could scratch it. That may be the only way to effectively deal with this problem. Then watch what happens: these morons will start carrying diamond-tipped cutters...
Fri. 2-12-99. The High School by 79 St/New Utrecht Ave. on the B/M lines. The Valentines Day Dance had gotten out just after 6 PM. and several hundred youths ascended to the station. They got on a Manhattan Bound B train headed toward Pacific St. The train got as far as 50th St. when the train went into emergency. It turned out 2 emergency cords were pulled. It took some time to find with all those kids yelling & screaming and the general difficulty of finding pulled cords on the R68A since the air doesn't blow too loud. Also, 2 cars had end door glass kicked out. 2 cars cannot be "isolated" so the whole train had to go out of service. 20 minute delay, my M train is at 55th St. waiting. I knew I was going to have problems. I picked them all up at 50th St. Before I got into Fort Hamilton Pkwy., a cab door was kicked open & I heard unauthorized voices on the PA. I told Control Center that we had an out of control situation with rowdy kids and I must have police riding. I was told I would get them at Pacific St. I told them forget it, that won't do me any good. Keep it moving they told me. Entering Ninth Ave., I lost the indication that told me my doors were closed & locked and a second after, my train went into emergency. Somebody kicked open the #2 cab door in the 8th car & knocked out all circuit breakers. 6 cars were in the station, 2 were out. My conductor reset the circuit breakers, and we made the station stop. Now, Control Center had enough, and told us to discharge and later announced over the radio no trains would stop there till cops would ride with those youths. So, most of them just eventually crossed back to the other side and went back to 62 St. to catch the N! Now in retaliation, they pulled a cord in my 7th car. We reset it, went on our way and re-entered service at Pacific St. BTW: cops flagged me down at 36 St and asked me what the problem was. I didn't wish them a nice weekend to be sure!!!!!! I told them they were needed at Ninth Ave. I arrived at Met. Ave. 40 Mins. late. A Bay Pkwy bound train was turned back to provide service, and the B & M lines were backed up all the way back to Coney Island.
A lot of kids do go to school late. I think they call it "Split Sessions". In order to efficiently utilize classroom space, some kids would have their first period around 10:30 AM, when others start lunch. The late comers would then have lunch at the time the early birds have their last period. In effect, no classroom is empty during the lunch periods.
Hmmm...not good! Point of interest..in reading the posts that followed this one, it does strike me that something CAN be done about at least the wanton damage and vandalism that takes place..what about some undercover police - those that REALLY look like the average or below average rider...within a reasonable tolerance the problem times are noted when the damage takes place, so this might aid the surveillance. Pity the image of the NYCTATP (Transit Police) has changed ..I gather they are merged into NYPD..gone are the days of them riding the trains during the OFF and some ON hours...certainly some stations and routes are notorious for student problems (ask any bus driver in any major city - they KNOW where they DON'T want to be driving by when the schools let out; I'm certain the T.O's in NY are no different! Also when the cars go thru an overhaul, put in some surreptitious cameras for video surveillance, but bury the recorders where they won't be accessed by vandals...we have and it is of note that in cars that clearly state that passengers are being videoed and voice recorded, the incidence of "scratchiti" and other vandalism is basically ZERO....cause if anything occurs, the tapes are reviewed and the police involved.
dear fellow buffs,unruly(or worse) youths usually emulate the behavior of their parents. More later.
I have been told that SEPTA plans on resignalling the Market-Frankford Line in two years. They are going to install cab signalling. My question is: why go to all that trouble, and if you do, why not install CBTC? Is cab signalling really that much better?
I have been told that maintenance of wayside signals is expensive, but with the increased complexity of cab signalling, will it really be that much more reliable so as to justify replacing the entire signalling system?
And why not install CBTC? If you're spending the money on resignalling an entire line like that, wouldn't it make sense to go all the way and use a technology that would give you all the benefits of a moving-block system?
SEPTA is installing CBTC in the underground portion of the subway-surface trolleys, so why not the MFL?
Good question. The M-4's are equipped for cab signalling. Whether someone at SEPTA thinks it worthwhile to change to CBTC, I don't know. Perhaps the $ isn't there? Who knows with SEPTA? I do know SEPTA is about to spend a large sum to re-signal the Broad St subway and one must wonder the same about this move.
A question about all this high tech subway signalling such as CBTC and in cab signals. We all know that right now if a train runs a automatic red signal it gets triped and puts the train into stop. With this new type signaling such as CBTC are there any of the same type safety features built into these systems?
I'm not sure about CBTC, but cab signals have a kind of "trip" built into them to prevent running reds.
CBTC is not fully developed and is very expensive. If you don't run less than 90 second headways then moving block does not have any benefits. Cab signaling is a great way to go and involves jointless track circuit circuits with full broken down rail protection on the straight tracks and some broken down rail protection in interlocking. Wee-Z impedance bonds will be used on SEPTA with a single twisted pair of #14 wire to each bond to handle double direction running. Alstom (former GRS) has the contract and there will be Vital Microprocessor based interlockings on Market-Frankfort EL.
If you want to talk off line on this, please too.
Anyone give me more info on the Williamsburg Bridge closing...How will subway service be affected? I do not think that the L train could hold a lot of subway cars in its tunnels?
G train have its share of problems. It runs 10 minutes all day. It have six cars. Now it is being shortened. The only chance the G train get to intertwine with a couple of major lines is about to be taken away. I heard the G train could have been saved. The original plans for the 63rd street tunnel called for an super express from QP to Forest Hills. The G trian would have been definitely saved.
Why save it? It's a useless train. It should either be expanded to run the Culver express or demolished.
The G train should not be demolished. There are two bottlenecks(which i stated earlier), one at Court Square and Queens Plaza, and the other at Hoyt Schmerhorn. Not many people travel it from one end to the other. The midpoint, Greenpoint has had an increased in traffic on the G line and many are complaining about the decreased service. They are even building up the waterfront for condos and townhouses, which means more people living there. The Gtrain could be SO MUCH UTILIZED if it went into Manhattan. As I said many times before and it has been confirmed on here as well that 6th Avenue can handle additional traffic especially the Rutgers Steet tunnel which the F line goes through from Manhattan into Brooklyn. Therefore the G train is a 6th Avenue Loop. Major track reconfiguration bt will be well worth it in the long run. Once in Brooklyn it switches to the A and C line out of Jay Street into Hoyt Street then out of Hoyt or before then on the G line tracks and head up to North Brooklyn, and then into the 53rd Street tunnel. What do you all think? Just my suggestion.
How about this:
Building either a lower level to the 63rd St tunnel or connecting the 'G' to it, and then running it down 6th Ave or even Broadway to the City Hall station or even(if completed)the Manhattan Bridge line.
There is a lower level on the 63rd tunnel but supposedly it is to be used for the LIRR!!!!
On the topic of the lower level......Does the LIRR use top or bottom 3rd rails? If they use top, how will they be compatible with the bottom readers at GCT? Does a top/bottom 3rd rail exist anywhere?
The LIRR uses the same kind of third rail as the subway,i.e.the shoe runs on the top of the rail as opposed to MNRR where the shoe runs along the bottom of the third rail.
If the LIRR ever comes to GCT they will either have to dedicate certain tracks only for there use or fit the cars with an adjustible third rail shoe to use both types of rail. The FL-9's were originally so equipted as they served both Penn Station and GCT.
Regards,Larry,RedbirdR33
Weren't the FL-9s also origionally fitted with retracting shoes and DC pantagraphs? Also, does anyone know if the overhead DC power in GCT is still used, or even active / intact?
Phillip: I believe that the first 30 FL-9's were equipted with the overhead pans for the DC pickup on the gaps at GCT. It was rarely if ever used. There are still three E-10B Electric Engines(401-403) in GCT though they seem to be seldom used. MN gets more work out of the TA Diesel Loco that they have the #64(I think). I'll ask at GCT the next time I'm there if the overhead is still energized.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
[If the LIRR ever comes to GCT they will either have to dedicate certain tracks only for there use or fit the cars with an adjustible third rail shoe to use both types of rail.]
Current plans call for LIRR-only tracks and platforms. These would be located on the west side of the lower level, in the area now occupied by the largely disused Madison Avenue storage yard. Of course, any actual LIRR service to Grand Central is many years off, and plans might change.
First, There is no way for the 'G' train to get into Manhattan without making a reverse move either at Bergen Street or north of Queens Plaza .
Second, The 'G' line is an extremely high priority line and will not be shut down. In the unlikely event of a severe car shortage, the 'G' line would be the last line in the Queens corridor to be short a train.
This issue has been talked about for over a year on Subtalk. I can't remember any issue that has sparked as much controversy and even animosity. Check out Peter Dougherty's maps of the G line and you will see that the track alignment makes it impossible (or at least prohibitively expensive) to route the g train into Manhattan. From the standpoint of your argument, why would you want it to anyway? As the LIC/Greenpoint develope, jobs are moving there. Look at the Citicorp. Building at Court Square for one example. As the jobs come, so will the people. Not from manhattan, but from Brooklyn and Queens. Over the next 10 years, the wisdom of the 'G' line route will be seen. At some point, you will likely see it running on the express tracks from it's new terminal at Church Ave, providing the new work-force of LIC/Greenpoint it's most important transit link.
Running the G on the express tracks in Brooklyn from Church Ave. is impossible past Smith-9th Sts., since only the upper level branches off to Hoyt-Schemerhorn and the crossover is just past the 4th Ave station.
The G could run local to Church with the F as express as it was from 1968-76, but then you have the problem of people at Bergen and Carroll Sts. not having a no-transfer ride into Manhattan (as has been mentioned in numerous earlier posts)
Couldn't both the G and the F run local? Or couldn't there be both local and express F's?
From 1968-76 that's the way the F ran in rush hours. The G would run local to Church Ave. while the F local ran to or from Kings Highway and the F express to or from Coney Island, which required a track shift by both trains at Kings Highway.
An air-conditioned Slant R-40 express to Coney Island during the summer back then was a great railfan window ride.
Then they had better open up their pocketbooks and call the Master Plumbers, concrete men, tilesmiths and electrical workers over to Bergen Street lower level for a little "creative restoration".
In other words, repair, restore, reopen!
Wayne
If this were a city where transit improvements were being made on a regular basis, connecting the G at both ends (to Jay St and to the 53rd St tunnel) and running as a loop would be worthwhile. The ridership would emerge to justify the improvement.
For one thing, it would allow a decent class of service if the Williamsburg were lost, and as you know I feel the TA should be looking for alternatives to the bridges in the long run. People would take a G loop rather than the J/Z/M to Manhattan. For another thing, it would spark a rise in redevelopment and property values. With the G/L/ and transfers between them, service to Downtown Brooklyn, LIC, and all parts of Manhattan would be excellent.
Nonetheless, other improvements are more important, and are also unlikely to get done.
Why is the G considered a HIGH PRIORITY line?
(Why a high priority line) Because it has so little service that if a train doesn't make its run you wait forever. If a #4 doesn't leave the yard, someone at 42nd St waits an extra two minutes, vs. an extra 10 for a missed G.
The G is high priority for exactly that reason.
On our recent (Jan.28) tour of the "G" line showed the most passenger activity at the Greenpoint Avenue, Nassau Avenue, Metropolitan-Grand and Bedford-Nostrand stations. The others, especially Flushing Avenue (and this was at 9:03am) and Broadway (9:15am) were pretty much deserted. Clinton-Washington had a few people (11:15am) and Classon Avenue (8:45am) was a dead zone. Perhaps if they could put in that scissors switch east of Hoyt-Schermerhorn so the "G" could route up the lower east side, they'd get some more use out of it. Closing it down/demolishing it, however, should not be an option.
Wayne
Thank you Wayne. My point exactly!!
As I've said before, the issue of putting in scissor switches beyond Hoty-Schermerhorn is easier said than done. The G tracks start to descend almost immediately after entering the tunnel at the Queens-bound end, to trade places with the Manhattan-bound Fulton St. tracks. The other end of the station is out of the question, what with diverging routes.
You miss the point. By having it not serving Queens Blvd., NYCT can run 4 car R46's using OPTO operation 24/7.
I just moved out to the East New York area where the 3 train goes over the L train. I stood at the Livonia Station and notice two things: There is no exits at Junius St. It should be called Powell-Sackman Sts. The second thing is that instead of having a walkway, why not have a transfer from that makeshift mezzanine (closed off exit at Junius) between the two lines. I am glad that they are building a transfer at Franklin Avenue. One at Junius Street wouldn't be bad either. Another place I thought that they should be a transfer would be between the G and J trains at Broadway and Lorimer. It would probably attract some riders to the G line. Tell me what you think.
I'd like to know when they (the MTA/NYCT) is planning to open up City Hall Station (the original IRT-1904) as a branch of the Transit Museum. Also, I'd like to know (as it says in the Subway FAQ) why when this site says that when you get to Brooklyn Bridge-City Hall that they (the motorman/operator and conductor) are not permitted to "kick" you off the train, that you are permitted to remain onboard and ride thru the City Hall loop. Because, I tried to do the above, and was kicked off the train at B.B.C.H. by the motorman and told that they are not allowed to carry anybody while the train is officially not in service.
Last year, the ride around the loop was overturned by Mayor Giuliani as I understand it.
I am unsure as to when it will be a part of theTransit Museum.
I believe that was put on hold for the same reason the ride was cancelled.
The FAQ is out of date in this regard.
NYPD will assist NYCT staff in clearing trains at Brooklyn Bridge for the ride around the loop.
On Philadelphia's "10 o'Clock News", there was a report recently concerning SEPTA and the problem with Y2K. The report focused on signals and train operation( namely the M-4's). In the report, SEPTA said that all buses and trains are prepared.
Has the MTA taken any steps to insure smooth operations when the counter reads 1/1/00?
What would need to be done, if anything?
I was just on the MTA website and saw that the work for the 63rd St tunnel will be done in late spring.
Does that mean that the thing may be open before the 4th of July?
Also, this is something a friend showed me today.
What character, more or less, represents:
An IND local
An IRT express
A BMT local
A possible near-future route?
You may find it funny.
I can't answer the 63rd St. questions, but I can take a stab at the others.
On the IRT, the express routes are 2, 3, 4, and 5. There are express services on the 6 and 7, designated by a diamond-shaped background, during rush hours in the peak direction, which supplement the regular local services bearing the same numbers. The 1 and 9 lines operate in skip-stop service between 137th St and 242nd St. during rush hours. During other times, the 9 doesn't operate and the 1 makes all stops along its route.
The IND and BMT divisions have been fully integrated into a single system. The original IND routes were lettered from A to H; BMT routes were J to T. Up until the mid-80s, a single letter indicated express and a double letter meant local. However, there were some double letter routes which ran express at some point during certain hours. All double letter markings were dropped in an effort to simplify things and minimize confusion.
The following IND/BMT lines operate exclusively as locals whenever they're running, always making all stops along their routes: C, G, L, M, R, and the two S shuttles (the Frankin Ave. shuttle is presently closed for rebuilding).
In the front section of yesterday's Inquirer, there was an article about major road and rail work to begin this year.
Among wreaking havoc on US 202 and I-95, there were some rail projects mentioned:
-Of course, SEPTA's plans to rebuild the Market St. El, supposedly to begin this year
-Schuylkill Valley Metro(there was a preliminary sketch of the route. It basically follows the R6 on the other side of the river, though it crosses the Schuylkill many times). It went through Norristown(connect to R6 and NHSL?) and Pottstown
-Rebuilding the Frankford Transportation Center, a project mentioned a few years ago.
-And surprisingly, briging rail back to Girard Avenue from "the Delaware waterfront to 63rd St).
All this is to be done by 2002. Will they really be completed? Stay tuned.....
Jack, the cash might be there, but is the will just as strong? I think many of the projections, especially Girard Ave, are extremely optimistic.
I also forgot to mention this:
There are plans to begin repairing the tracks for the mile-long viaduct between 30th St and Suburban Station, the busiest stretch of railway in the area.
OK, with the talk about the subway riding record, I’ve come up with my proposal. This passes through every station in the system at least once, but not on each possible line. There are fewer lines now in some ways than 1973 (no 3rd Ave el in the Bronx, no Culver or Franklin shuttles (for now...), but also new Queens lines. I think the key is to avoid as many transfers as possible -- stay on trains that are moving, and start and end on along-run to avoid a long back-track. I also think the difference between local and express is overblown in most circumstances, so I don’t think one has to schedule for rush-hour express service. By my estimate, I come up with 24 hours -- how would this be improved? Anyone know previous routes used by record-holders? Suggestions?
I’d start at approximately 4 AM on a weekday at Rockaway Park, in order to catch a round-robin train (does this still run?) and then do the following:
S round robin from Rock Park to Far Rock
then reverse to Rockaway Blvd, take opposite A to Lefferts Blvd, then reverse to 207th St., then reverse to 145th St. (150 min)
D to 205th St., reverse to 161 St., 4 to Woodlawn, then reverse to 149/GC. (90 min)
5 to Dyre Ave., then reverse to 180th St. (40 min)
2 to 241st St., reverse to 145th St/Lenox. (60 min)
3 to 148th, then reverse to 96th St., (30 min)
1 to 242nd, then reverse to South Ferry (could use overlapping express and then change again at Chambers St.). Ride around loop to Chambers. (90 min)
3 to New Lots Ave, reverse to Franklin Ave., (60 min)
2 to Flatbush Ave then reverse to Atlantic Ave., (40 min)
through “Panama Canal” to Pacific St., (5 min)
B to Coney Island, (30 min)
N to 59th St., (25 min)
R to 95th St., then reverse to DeKalb Ave., (50 min)
Q or D to Coney Island, (25 min)
F to 34th, reverse D/Q to DeKalb Ave, (90 min)
N to Astoria, reverse to Queensboro Plaza, (75 min)
7 to Times Sq., reverse to Main St, reverse to 5th (90 min)
Q to 21 Queensbridge, reverse to 14th St., (60 min)
L to 8th Avenue, reverse to Canarsie, reverse to M, (90 min)
M to Metropolitan, reverse to Broad, (60 min)
J to Jamaica Center, (80 min)
E to Union Tpk, reverse F to 179th St., reverse F to 5th Avenue, (60 min)
E to 7th Avenue, then reverse to Lex Avenue, (20 min)
6 to Grand Central, 4 or 5 to Nevins St., then reverse to 125th St, (80 min)
then 6 to Pelham Bay Pk. (25 min).
that sound cool but only one glitch......you must take the 2 train to 110 in order to switch to the 3 to 148th.(unless you got the unlimited Metrocard.)
Can someone help me with some technical information on The R36's
1) Are all axles powered?
2) Does aux power come from rotary converters?
3) What breaking systems are used i.e regenerative, rheostatic, etc?
4) What is the black lever for just inside the end door reveal?
5) What is the nominal power rating of each motor?
6) What is normal collected voltage?
7) What is the maximum permitted speed?
Thanks
Simon
The R-36 is a very basic subway car. Here are the answers to your questions. The answers are virtually the same for all NYCT cars except the R-110s.
1) All axles are powered.
2) Auxilliary porer comes from batteries located in the even numbered cars. They are kept charged by a static converter which converts the nominal 3rd rail voltage to 37.5 volts.
3) The braking system is electro-pneumatic. The train is slowed by dynamic braking (turning the motors into generators) and dissipating the produced current in the braking grids under the car. At approximately 5 MPH, the dynamic brake fades out ant the pneumatic brake takes over. During Dynamic braking, the pneumatic brake is 'locked out' by a valve.
4) I assume that you are referring to the handbrake which is at the #1 end of each car.
5) Each car has 4 traction motors - each rated at 115 HP @ 300 VDC.
6) Nominal 3rd rail voltage is 600 Volts but it can vary by as much as +/- 100 Volts during peak periods.
7) Maximum permitted speed by rule or due to electrical constraints? Since the full field shunting positions have been removed from the propulsion circuits, the cars are limited to 40-50 MPH.
I hope this info helps....
Steve, thanks for the information> The lever I was refering to is best described from a view staight out of the railfan. If you look out and down to the leftit is enclosed by a pocket in the body.
Thanks again
Simon
That is the handbrake lever. There are actually 2 levers in that space, the lever that enables the brake (large) and a smaller release lever. Every subway car is so equipped.
-Hank
OK, with the talk about the subway riding record, I’ve come up with my proposal. This passes through every station in the system at least once, but not on each possible line. There are fewer lines now in some ways than 1973 (no 3rd Ave el in the Bronx, no Culver or Franklin shuttles (for now...), but also new Queens lines. I think the key is to avoid as many transfers as possible -- stay on trains that are moving, and start and end on along-run to avoid a long back-track. I also think the difference between local and express is overblown in most circumstances, so I don’t think one has to schedule for rush-hour express service. By my estimate, I come up with 24 hours -- how would this be improved? Anyone know previous routes used by record-holders? Suggestions?
I’d start at approximately 4 AM on a weekday at Rockaway Park, in order to catch a round-robin train (does this still run?) and then do the following:
S round robin from Rock Park to Far Rock
then reverse to Rockaway Blvd, take opposite A to Lefferts Blvd, then reverse to 207th St., then reverse to 145th St. (150 min)
D to 205th St., reverse to 161 St., 4 to Woodlawn, then reverse to 149/GC. (90 min)
5 to Dyre Ave., then reverse to 180th St. (40 min)
2 to 241st St., reverse to 145th St/Lenox. (60 min)
3 to 148th, then reverse to 96th St., (30 min)
1 to 242nd, then reverse to South Ferry (could use overlapping express and then change again at Chambers St.). Ride around loop to Chambers. (90 min)
3 to New Lots Ave, reverse to Franklin Ave., (60 min)
2 to Flatbush Ave then reverse to Atlantic Ave., (40 min)
through “Panama Canal” to Pacific St., (5 min)
B to Coney Island, (30 min)
N to 59th St., (25 min)
R to 95th St., then reverse to DeKalb Ave., (50 min)
Q or D to Coney Island, (25 min)
F to 34th, reverse D/Q to DeKalb Ave, (90 min)
N to Astoria, reverse to Queensboro Plaza, (75 min)
7 to Times Sq., reverse to Main St, reverse to 5th (90 min)
Q to 21 Queensbridge, reverse to 14th St., (60 min)
L to 8th Avenue, reverse to Canarsie, reverse to M, (90 min)
M to Metropolitan, reverse to Broad, (60 min)
J to Jamaica Center, (80 min)
E to Union Tpk, reverse F to 179th St., reverse F to 5th Avenue, (60 min)
E to 7th Avenue, then reverse to Lex Avenue, (20 min)
6 to Grand Central, 4 or 5 to Nevins St., then reverse to 125th St, (80 min)
then 6 to Pelham Bay Pk. (25 min).
I don't believe shuttle runs from Rock Park to Far Rock any longer.
You must go back to Broad Channel.
Correct, although according to a couple of other posts on this site they have used the Y track a couple of times recently during service diversions.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
According to the MTA Web Site NYCTransit Subway Service Notices for the there will be a G.O. in early March which will require the use of the Hammel's Wye... though it won't be a round robin Shuttle.
I must admit I don't remember much of the route we took in 1967 when setting a record, but we did take the round robin late at night thru the Rockaways. I didn't devise the route, but one key element was built in 'corrections'. These were alternative routes/connections if we missed any key connections, OR if we got ahead of schedule. So... just one unchangable route makes it tough, you need to build in some flexibility!
Like Rich we take the Round Robin (HH Train) starting at 3:52am from Howard Beach Station. The trip ended at Pelham Pay Pk Station on the #6. I do have the log and route from 1971. I'm sure I can get the log from the all time record holder of 21 hours 8-1/2 minutes of October, 1973.
Like Rich, we have taken the Round Robin (HH Train) starting at 3:52am from Howard Beach Station. The trip ended at Pelham Pay Pk Station on the #6. I do have the log and route from December of 1971. I'm sure I can get the log from the all time record holder of 21 hours 8-1/2 minutes of October, 1973.
Sorry about the outages... Looks like Bell Atlantic can't keep the ADSL lines/routers up...
-Dave
No surprises there. Before there was NYNEX, or Bell Atlantic, Maryland had the Chesapeake & Potomac Telephone Company of Maryland. We called it Cheat & Pilfer. It (like almost everywhere) was a unit of The Bell System (AT&T). And everything worked pretty well. Then came the breakup. Local phone bills went UP, and so on. Bell Atlantic was formed as one of the Baby Bells. It got richer, and ate NYNEX. I can't get over 31,200 on my 36K modem, a friend can't get more than 52 with a 56K. We both use the same ISP. Why??? because the copper is oveloaded, and Bell Atlantic is fighting with the Maryland Public Service Comission about cost recovery for fiber optic to the neighborhood level.
For a First World country, our communications system is certainly behind the times. We should've had a full fiber optic system years ago like Buenos Aires.
This morning while boarding my usual #6 train at Pelham Bay Park, I noticed something I have never seen on an in service piece of equipment. Near one of the windows of car 9492 (R-36 WF) the rust had eaten a hole about 3.5 inches square and you could see the supporting strutural skeleton of that car.
I know that the Redbirds are going to be phased out at some point once the R-142's are on site but you would think they could at least apply a patch of some kind.
(BTW - for anyone who says "but that is a World's Fair car, it is on the Flushing line, not the Pelham", a number of R-36 WF cars were transferred to the main line some years back).
Has anyone else noticed similar structural defects on active rolling stock?
I've seen that lot of times on redbirds particarly on the No 5 and 6 Lines. Once at Dyre i spotted a big black rust hole on the side the car was in the 7800 series. At Pelham in notice some rust but that car on the 5 was the worst hole i seen.
What time do you leave Pelham I use to run the 7:50 out of Pelham.
#7822-7823, #7796-7797, #7870-7871, #7818-7819, #8724-8725, #8656-8657, rustbuckets all, among numerous others. #7822 is the winner so far. One good jolt and the carbody will pop right off the sill (only joking!)(MIGHTY RUSTY!)
Wayne
Regarding the R-1/9 cars: some of them were painted MTA silver and blue in the 1970s, but many of them were never repainted once in their entire careers. How was rust prevented on them? Or perhaps they were in worse condition than I noticed at the time.
From what I remember as a kid, and from what I've seen in books, many of those old subway cars were "repainted", very often too. Trouble is everyone had different ideas of paint schemes, and not all painters were equally talented. Plus, they never did any surface prep (which we all know is important for a paint job!).
I am of course, referring to the grafitti vandals of the 70's 80's. I've often wondered though - since cars were litterally getting repainted daily, is it possible that this activity prolonged the life of cars?
I would think going through the graffiti car washers probably increased the rust problem, and was not offset by the repainting.
The R-1/9s ran for only about their final five years during the height of the graffiti problem, so they didn't have to endure the continual washing and paint solvent attempts by the MTA, and overall they also spent far more time underground than BMT or IRT cars did before 1967, which probably helped slow any rusting problems.
Many of the R6s R7s and R9s went to the scrapyard still wearing their "coats of many colors". I know for a fact they never cleaned or repainted #1233, #1400, or #1415, all "highly-decorated" R-6s and R-7s (there were many others). The only ones that got touched up were the ones on the Eastern Division. I never saw an R6 or R7 (other than the Eastern Division ones) with silver/blue paint - just the R7s and R9s that ran on the "QJ","KK","LL" and "M". The R1s were basically gone before graffitti set in, as were some of the R4s - I believe that some of the R4 managed to survive until about 1972 or 1973 so they may have been affected too.
Wayne
From what I remember, even Shore Line's 1689 was subjected to some graffiti before it was retired. When I saw it for the first time in 1980, it had been repainted in sort of an olive drab shade.
Is it true that the R-1/9s had aluminum exterior body panels?
Yes, #1689 had messy blobs of graffitti on it, courtesy of someone calling themselves "WIZZ", according to my 1973-4-5 Paint Pot Log.
Best in show Eastern Division R-7/9 was #1589. One of the local vandals, who called himself "Super Strut" (anyone out there remember seeing his "art"?) was given to mega-painting any car he could lay his spray can to, and #1589 was the one he laid the most paint to. I can't count all the R10s and R16s listed in my book as bearing his monicker. He liked Slant R40s and R38s too. But he is noted as having R30 "Best In Show" for his colossal #8437, an entire side. Ditto for R44 #124, where he combined with someone (aptly named?) called "Killer I" to decorate all 675 square feet of its left side. His #6409 also gets a "grotesque" mention, as it too, covered the entire side of this R16.
And for Slants, #4332 and #4333 were covered end to slanted end along their right sides by no fewer than four different "artistes", among them the aforementioned "S.S.".
I am truly glad to see that this "fad" has become a thing of the past!
Wayne
I agree wholeheartedly. That graffiti was just plain repulsive to me. I remember seeing an IRT car (one of our beloved Redbirds of today, in fact) which appeared to have had a whole can of paint just splattered all over its side. Everything, including the windows, was totally obliterated. You would have thought the car had said "Sock it to me!" a la Judy Carne on Rowan & Martin's Laugh-in.
Maybe it's just as well that I never saw an R-1/9 with graffiti on it with my own two eyes. Keep in mind that for about five years during the 70s, I very rarely went into the city, and didn't ride the subway even once during 1974 and 1975.
Whatever became of the plan to rebuild the 42 St Shuttle into a two track line with 2-5 car trains and three platforms at each terminal? I'm talking about the one proposed about 10 years ago and not the 1918 plan.
Regards,Larry ,RedbirdR33
When the H Plan was put into effect at Grand Central back in 1918 there was a great deal of confusion among passengers concrning the three stations and the new walkways. The IRT had an innovative solution. Place a string of colored lights in the ceiling with different colors for each line. All you had to do was follow the lights. These light disappeared sometime in the 60's. Does anyone remember which colors were used for which lines?Thanks,Larry,RedbirdR33
When SEPTA if ever rebuilds the Frankford Terminal will they have to terminate the Frankford El at Margaret-Orthodox or will they work around the El terminating at Bridge St?
SEPTA has plans to rebuild Frankford (known to true Philadelphians as Bridge and Pratt!) in the near future. A model of the new terminal has been trotted out to community meetings. The El will continue straight from the current curve north of Dyre St (at the former Gino's) across private property, leaving Frankford Ave, and end at a new station within the current terminal. The bus bays will be significantly realigned.
The new El alignment will also require a reconfiguration of the Frankford (bus) Depot, mainly to cut back the front section to permit the new El structure and bus terminal to fit.
A new parking garage will be built in the area of the current parking lot on Bustleton Ave. The north end of the new El will tie into the yards on a much gentler curve than the present squealer.
I imagine that the present station will remain as is until the new one is built, then service will switch over. Short turns at M-O may be needed, but trains can't reverse there, so the service disruption may occur further down the line, perhaps at Erie-Torresdale.
Dave, is your server in NYC. Who is your provider. I live in Brooklyn and cant seem to get ADSL.
Bell Atlantic & bellatlantic.net... And they've been down about 5 of the last 24 hours. To their credit I had not noticed outages prior to yesterday but I suspect they existed. I've had it since the SubTalk server moved, no coincidence there, but BA says they are just testing it in certain areas for now.
-Dave
Someone asked me where this was taken. Admittedly I have no idea:
Anyone know?
-Dave
Hi Dave, a coworker just passed my desk and said that he may know where this train picture was taken. He suggested the Culver Shuttle in Brooklyn that used to connect with the F train and B-West End lines till around 1972. Personally, I have no idea since this photo outdates me for certain and I'm not all that familiar with Brooklyn subway service anyway except for the few lines I have to ride about twice a month. Now he is shaking his head and saying that he is certain that this is that Culver Shuttle.
Francine
The Culver Shuttle had three tracks(ways). This picture shows two and no room for a third. Good try but I'm guessing that your co-worker is not correct.
-Dave
Dave: This is only a guess but it looks like a train coming off the Willy B headed toward Marcy,it must be very old though since the buildings seem somewhat different and its a three car train.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Two track BMT (subway/el) structure;
Canarsie line?
one of the approaches to Coney Island?
one of the East NY yard leads or complex connectors?
Astoria line?
It looks to me like the still-erected Myrtle el (M) just north of Fresh Pond where the tracks curve and change from elevated to surface for the Metropolitan Avenue terminal. The yards should be just out of the picture on the right.
That was my guess before I looked at the follow-ups.
I was the one who asked to identify the location of the photo in question. I think Howard has the most likely correct answer. There is obviously a double crossover switch just beyond the right margin of the picture, as indicated by the presence of the 2 interlocking signals.
I would never assume that because of the home signals. They appear to be rear home signals. See my other messages for the answer.
How about the Culver Line between Van Sicklen Ave. and West 8th St.? The picture could have been taken from the upper level of West 8th St. station.
This picture look like somewhere in Brooklyn and it gotta be a Myrtle Ave EL or Lexingtion Ave EL to Jay st? Because look like a shuttles train to me.
I will have a positive ID for photograph tomorrow. I need to review the track diagrams for the BMT and will do so tonight. Someone thought it was on the Myrtle Avenue or Lexington Avenue EL. A-B Standards never operated on these elevated lines. The steel cars were too heavy.
Yes, they did - but only north of Broadway. The el was rebuilt (possibly under the Dual Contacts) to handle steel cars. I remember Standards and Q's in the yard at Metropolitan Ave.
Dave,
When I was looking thorugh the car rosters( as I love to do) I came to the bottom of a screen and saw a shortcut to the R-34.
Curious, as to what that was, I clicked on it and ended up on the R-11 page.
Are you starting an R-11 invasion?:)
Weren't r-34's rebuilt r-11's?
> Weren't r-34's rebuilt r-11's?
Yes. The new designation didn't catch on but I suppose if I *didn't* have it listed someone would complain. :-)
-Dave
Speaking of the R-11/34s (one of my personal favs), I ran into some rare shots from my collection of car #8018 in its final days among the "scrap yard" section of Coney Island yard circa 1979. It was still in descent shape, but was being used as some kind of tool shed/TA crew-slumberroom (?). It had a wooden step ladder leading to its front end door and was on a siding next to -- amazingly -- two PCC trolleys decked out in Boston GreenLine paint schemes! If anyone is interested in copies of these shots contact Doug @ Shado183@juno.com.
Doug aka BMTman
Those are undoubtedly B-type BMT Standards. My guess is (noting the absence of a street below) that this train is leaving the Seneca Avenue station of the upper Myrtle Avenue Elevated, a line which was rebuilt to handle steel cars under the Dual Contracts. The picture may have been taken from a rooftop on Woodbine or Palmetto Streets.
This is just a guess. I thought Canarsie Line too, but the curve between New Lots and East 105th Street is at grade.
Wayne
[ My guess is (noting the absence of a street below) that this train is leaving the Seneca Avenue station of the upper Myrtle Avenue Elevated, a line which was rebuilt to handle steel cars under the Dual Contracts. The picture may have been taken from a rooftop on Woodbine or Palmetto Streets.]
I also thought that might have been a possibilty, however the neighborhood just doesn't look like Ridgewood. Besides, wouldn't there be trolley tracks underneath?
At the point I described, the Myrtle line branches off of Palmetto Street and onto its own ROW until it picks up again past Forest Ave.
That's why I thought it might be there. You'd be looking sort of southwest in this picture; the curve is just northeast of the station,
which would be just out of view to the left.
On the other hand, the neighborhood looks like East New York or Brownsville. The only lines that ran BMT Standards back then were the #14 (Bway Short Line), #15 ("J"), and #16 ("L").
I'm sitting here with the Hagstrom...for the moment, stumped.
Wayne
Well, try comparing it to these:
I don' think so - the El in the b/w photo is kind of low to the ground , lower than the el in the Marcy Avenue shots above. The bank building, which has been there forever isnt there either; the neighborhood shown looks strictly residential...I'll use Process of Elimination... It just about HAS to be Eastern Division somewhere. All the Southern Division els have at least three tracks (Culver, West End, Brighton). Lex and Myrtle (s.of Bway) is out because B-Types could not use them. So is Fulton St. east of A.A. for the same reason. Jamaica east of Crescent is out too, cause of the third trackway. It might be Alabama, but there's no flyover track in the photo. And it's NOT Crescent, the curve is too broad. Maybe it is Cypress Hills? Don't think so - third trackway there too. Broadway EL has three tracks. So I'm down to two - Canarsie Line south of A.A. and Myrtle Ave. north of Wyckoff. Canarsie Line's dead straight south of Sutter, where the two trackways are together (lone curve n.of 105th is at grade). That leaves just the "M".
The ONLY OTHER line that it might have been is part of the old 5th Avenue line. That was well before my time. But didn't that route run only BU's (gate cars)?
Wayne
Wayne: The 5 av El couldn't take Standards either so I think your right that its Eastern Division,also the use of a three car train argues for an early date.The best suggestions so far have been the Willy B approach to Marcy and the Fresh Pond ramp. Maybe Dave could blow the picture up to show a litle more detail?
Regards,Larry,RedbirdR33
I've seen two references to the picture showing a three-car train!! Please look again! It is a two car train which is really weird! The roof line of the Standards would indicate that they are high-numbered Standards -- 2600 through 2899 which were A Units and, technically, could be run as separate cars unless, of course, it could be a picture of two of the 4000 trailers, but they couldn't run any place without motors! Up till the time I left in 1957, I never saw anything less than a three-car train of Standards. I grew up underneath the Jamaica el on Crescent Street -- I don't think that picture was taken anywhere near Crescent or Cypress Hills. The Myrtle Avenue Line is a possibility, but I thought they always ran three-car trains during non-rush hours and on weekends. The picture would indicate that the train has passengers. I'll be anxious to know just where that picture was taken and when. Please tell me I'm right -- that it IS a picture of a TWO-car train!!
The picture has some very old small frame house (from when outlying areas then, like Canarsie or past Ridgewood were less than urban) as well as a couple of later (late 20s early 30s apartment bldgs).
The el is low and not early style. And not over a street. And 2 track.
I would say that it is around Fresh Pond.
2 car train would be a shuttle service between Broadway and Metrop'n
Ave run at various times.
According to the picture title, you are abstolutely right - that is car #2613 in the lead. And yes, there are people aboard it. I saved it and zoomed in on it. If that isn't the curve just out of Seneca, maybe it is where the tracks swing out just before the Fresh Pond Road station to go around the double-wide platform. Next time I'm up on the "M" Shuttle I'll keep an eye out for that building. I'd bet a cookie it's still standing, and occupied.
Wayne
Please let all of us know if you are on the right "track". There have been many good guesses. Being from Baltimore, I haven't been on the Myrtle El since 1969. Been to NY several times since, but Myrtle ain't the same without the Q's.
It doesn't make sense that a shuttle of standards would be running on that section of the Myrtle line. When the standards were still running, until 1969, the now abandoned section of that line had full time service of Q cars, which ran all the way to Ridgewood. Standards couldn't run on the old El section.
I guess anything is possible though. My guess is that it is the curve approaching W 8th from the upper platform. They ran shuttles from Kings Hwy to CI due to car shortages. I'll check out the buildings next time I'm out that way. The houses were probably demolished by Trump (Donald's father) for the developement there.
No one has said anything on this subject in almost 24 hours. Has the picture been identified and I missed it or are we all still in a quandry as to where the picture was actually taken. I'm 200 miles away or I would take a copy and go check the various suggested sites. I know for a fact that it was not on the curve at Crescent St or Cypress Hills but that Myrtle Ave site sounded like it had possibilities to me.
I think the choices have been narrowed down to the Myrtle Ave. line near Seneca Ave, the Culver line between Van Sicklen and West 8th St. (which is my choice), or perhaps a line leading to one of the yards.
I don't mean to throw a wild-card into the pot, but is it possible that these New York transit cars could be operating on a "foreign" system? Has there ever been an occasion when BMT (or any other New York) cars were lent to another transit operator or operated on another system as part of an exhibition of some kind?
If it were possible, it would, of course, expand the search for similar-looking locations to Boston, Philadelphia, and Chicago.
It's and excellent thought you have but, the elevated structure is definitely BMT including the home signals and signal cases shown. The hand rails are BMT and the buildings are typical to Brooklyn.
Couldn't be Chicago. Chicago L cars are considerably smaller than BMT standards (48' long by 8'8" wide at platform level, 9'4" max width). A 67' long by 10' wide car would never fit on Chicago Ls.
Likewise Boston. Curves limited length to 55' actual cars were 46' prior to 1957.
My guess would be at W. 8th St.
Gerry
Forget it for Cypress Hill and Crescent Street interlocking. I already checked the General Signal Arrangements with curves and the home signals and site do not match.
It's definitely not Fresh Pond and Seneca Avenue on the Myrtle Avenue EL. I checked the GSA's on this too. No match.
When I lived in Brooklyn many years ago, The Jamaica line's turn from Fulton St onto Crescent St was directly over a drug store (Mellor's Drug I believe). The turn from Crescent St onto Jamaica Ave was over a cemetary monument showroom (Donnelly's Monuments I believe). That definately eliminates these two locations as the site of the picture. Isn't there someone at this site who lives close to the two possible locations and can take a copy of the picture and make a visual check? Please! Please! Please!
Geez, now that I think of it, the Culver curve at West 8th Street it is! My father was with FDNY and was a lieutenant with Engine 245
which was based in the firehouse to the left of the picture view. The
NYPD station was immediately adjacent to that el structure. The scenery in the photo was different in1962 when my father worked there!
[Dave could blow the picture up to show a litle more detail?]
Just click on the picture to get a blow-up of it.
I don't have the slide so I can't blow it up (increasing the size of the JPG will just make it more blurry). I tried that in order to read the side signs but couldn't.
-Dave
After looking at the blow-up of the picture, Covered third rail eliminates all els but Culver Line rebult structure at Coney Island, and probably any East NY yard lead. If the picture is from before 1960, and probably is, you would see uncovered 3rd rail if it was anywhere on the BWay line. So, I am still guessing at somewhere on the Canarsie or the Astoria line.
The Astoria line has three tracks!
I sent you an E-Mail last night and I ID'd the photograph as Track C2 on the Culver Shuttle between Fort Hamilton and 9th Avenue station. This was prior to Track C1 being used as a double direction shuttle to the middle track at 9th Avenue Station. At the time of the photograph, Track C2 was connected to the middle track at 9th Avenue Station. More description in my E-Mail.
This photograph can't be Fresh Pond to Metropolitan Avenue because that track and the structure does not curve at that point.
I don't think this is not Culver Shuttle D.Rosenthal. Remember Culver have three track not two track. What i think it that picture look like a old Lexington Ave El or Myrtle Ave El because they have two track not three track and maybe Fifth Ave El who know. What I believe the trains leave at Greene Ave on old Lexingtion Ave El. Why don't you check the history nyc subway map and find out your self.
Can't be! The curve is going in the wrong direction! Plus that was three trackway elevated at that point, no? That photo only shows two trackways with no gap in the center. I'm sticking with Upper Myrtle line for the time being.
Wayne
The cars in the photo are BMT standards, which were too heavy for use on older, unrebuilt el structures. Therefore, we can rule out the possibility of the 5th Ave., Lexington, Myrtle, or Fulton St. els.
If it were the Culver line (which was my initial guess), it would have to be the two track section south of Ave. X station, probably the curve leading into West 8th. The upper level of West 8th would have been an appropriate vantage point for taking such a picture.
I don't think, however, that this is the correct location, because if it were, it would have been prior to 1954 when the Culver line became part of the IND, and you would have seen the tracks of the MacDonald Ave. trolley line on its PROW under the El.
This location is Marcy Avenue on the Williamsburg Bridge. Definitely not the ID your looking for.
WRONG AGAIN, This picture show the EL is low but when you leaving the marcy Ave than the EL rise little high going to Williamburg Bridge. P.S. Check the Background this you see Manhattan??
It may be a lite 2 car Franklin or Culver Shuttle train on the lead into Coney Island Yard.
Could it be the Culver line southbound rounding the curve into the lower level of the West 8th street station. I happen to know that with the car shortages in the 50s, shuttles were used from Kings Highway to Stillwell Ave.
You might be right about the location but Standards were not used on that shuttle service btwn Kings Hwy and Coney Is. There was a chronic shortage of steel cars on the BMT so the "Steels" were shortlined at King Hwy on the Culver and Bay Pkwy on the West End. A BU Gate car shuttle was used until about July 1953 when the C's took over until the end of the shuttle in October 1954.
Regards,Larry,RedbirdR33
The photograph was taken approximately 900 feet south (or 15 spans of elevated structure) of the intersection of W 6th Street and Sheepshead Bay Road (location of the Brighton Laundry) just east of Shell Road as the ex-Culver El makes the turn into the lower level of the West 8th Street Station. From the appearance of the three adjacent frame buildings behind the el in the left of the photograph, I would say that the picture is from the early or mid fifties. I have a photo of a train of IND R-9's at this very location that was obtained from Kevin Farrell (his negative 122) that is dated 1952. Hope this answers the question.
One small observation: the IND connection from Church Ave. to Ditmas Ave. opened on October 30, 1954, when D trains began running to Coney Island. A group of R-1s were loaned to the BMT in 1948-49 to help ease car shortages. They were usually found on what would be today's R line (4th Ave. local), but could have been used on the Culver. I would imagine they were returned to the IND when the R-16s arrived. Perhaps one of our Subtalkers who were regular BMT customers during that time period could verify if this was so.
What's the deal with 148th Street stop in Harlem? Would it not make sence to tunnel under 148th, or 145th to make a connection to the 8th Avenue IND? A little track, a stop in the middle = big service and options???
Also, why not extend the shuttle in Brooklyn one stop to connect with the G train??? What is the TRACK FEET / SERVICE OPTIONS ratio on these ideas???
[Also, why not extend the shuttle in Brooklyn one stop to connect with the G train???]
I have often wondered that myself, especially considering there is no direct connect to the G train from the Brighton Line. No one uses the Franklin Ave. Shuttle anyway, and this will give people more of a reason to. Although, any new track should be underground. EL's are so ugly and ruin neighborhoods.
Hey fellahs, when the shuttle is running, there are quite a few people who use it. There are many people who connect between the FUlton line (A/C) and the Brighton line (D/Q). It might not be the crush load that you see on any major corridor but it is utilized. Community leaders have always made a stink when there was talk of closing it down. I'm guessing that the biggest stink came from the hospital over by the Park Place stop. Many people who work there use the shuttle.
Hey, we are proposing expanding the shuttle, not closing it down.
I was responding to Josh's statement..."no one uses the shuttle anyway." I would love to see expansion, but the fact that they are actually rehabbing the Franklin Shuttle is cause for celebration. I don't expect much from the TA (as an emplyee and daily rider).
[There are many people who connect between the FUlton line (A/C) and the Brighton line (D/Q). ]
That is simply not true. Hardly anyone needs to make that connection. Very few people would take the double transfer just to use the subway to go from Aquaduct to Brighton Beach. Rational people would just use a direct bus, which is much faster.
[I'm guessing that the biggest stink came from the hospital over by the Park Place stop. ]
Exactly. The biggest stink comes from people who's destination is a stop on the Shuttle. The shuttle simply doesn't run frequent enough to make the double transfer a time saver. That's why the Shuttle should be expanded to more of a regular line. More people would use it if it actually had destinations they were loking for or if people used it for single transfer purposes only.
Josh, having worked the Franklin Shuttle as both a Motorman and Conductor, there are plenty of people who utilize this train as a transfer from the Fulton(A/C) to the Brighton(D/Q). Like I said, it may not be the swinging load you find on the mainline, but it's plenty.
When the transfer to the 2,3,4,5 lines is complete, I am sure ridership will increase also because people will not have to go into Manhattan to get the A train.
I ride the MBTA "Purple Line" Commuter Rail each day into Boston. The diesel-drawn coaches seat anywhere from 94 (single decker, MBB cars) to 185 (double decker Kawasaki cars). [You can see images and descriptions of all of the coaches on the New England Transit Web Site; click on MBTA Vehicle Inventory, then Commuter Rail Coaches and Control Cabs.]
Nearly all of the stations on the Purple Line have low-level platorms (exceptions include North and South Stations, Back Bay, (and coming soon, Route 128); there are mini-highs at many stops for wheelchair access. This means that when commuters get on and off the cars at their stops, they must climb or descend three or four steps. The doors to the cars are at either end, and narrow enough so that only one person can go up/down in/out at a time. Furthermore, most trains are six or seven coaches long, and have three trainmen (one conductor and two ass't. conductors). At low-level platform stops, doors only open where there is a trainman present; passengers are prohibited from using the other doors. So, for example, a train with six coaches will have only three pair, or six doors open at each stop! Entry and exit is exceedingly slow, especially during rush hour. Dwell time can be a full two minutes at each stop.
My questions: Why would commuter rail coaches be so designed? Why wouldn't there be wide, center doors such as on NJT and METRA? I think that commuters would gladly give up a few seats per car to make them more efficient to load/unload. And why does the MBTA (and its contractor, AMTRAK) insist on using only a few of the doors -- compared to the LIRR (old style) diesel coaches where doors remain open and commuters can use all of them? They claim it's safety, but I've never heard of anyone falling out of an LIRR train.
Sorry if I sound frustrated, but I am! This adds a lot of time to the commute each day, especially for those who are at the ends of lines.
It's typical Amtrak stupidity. The Northeast direct from New Haven up to Springfield *crawls* especially the Boston bound trains. Why? Because at all the stops - only one or two doors open. Even worse, sometimes they open two doors at the front of the train, unload, pull the train forward a few feet, and repeat the whole processes for the rear of the train!
That and the conductors don't encorage passengers to wait by the doors. Needless to say, there's always one or two confused people, with kids, with bags, who has to walk from on train end to the other.
Station times run from 2 - 5 minutes.
Todd, you are correct. The idea that a physical trainperson must manually open a door and perhaps open a trap on a local train is ludicrous. High level platforms are so obvious. The basic gallery coach design comes from both a time and place of less haste, but it is obsolete.
Try a SEPTA train at 30th, Suburban or Market East. The loading and unloading takes forever! Trains are scheduled for 3-4 minutes dwell at each. SEPTA wouldn't spend the $ to add the center doors to the Silverliner IV's and riders are inconvenienced. Figure this one out...
hey, at least the platforms at Market East are real--not the old Reading Terminal. Its one thing on a Chestnutt Hill train with maybe five people getting off at Wister or Fishers(you can guess how long ago I lived there,), but on some heavy duty line low level is a joke. . BTW the dim bulbs at AMTRAK seem not to have learnt this either when redoing DC Union Station. The platforms on the lower level--where almost all non Metroliners arrive depart are still low level and you still have the lame three doors to offload a full train from New York.
I have came to the conclusion that the Control Center cares more about moving trains then careing for there follow workers. Whatever happened to "Your safty is inportant to us". Thats what control preches on the hour. I'll give 3 Examples that shows Control does not care about your safety. All ex. are on the IRT.
The 4:26 PM out of Parkchestor pulls into 103 St.-Lex Ave. The Train Operator is hit in the face with some kind of drink witch got him in the eye. The Conductor does all the right things such as Discharge the train and checks on the Train Operator. Control orders the train to move light to 86 St to pick up the TSS. Now the TSS was willing to go to 103 St to pick up the train.
The 7:40 Flatbush No.2 at 96 St with sick conductor. I mean real sick. A TSS from Times Square tells Control hes responding. Control says not to respond we are going to send that train to 149 St were we will try to get medical attention. The tower was more concerned about two trains stuck behind. This outraged lot of crews. Why did't they tell the conductor to go to the Dispachors office at 96 st?
The 2:20 White Plains No.5 on a sunday during the Lenox REHAB.
A Youth throws a bottle at the train operator as the train comes into Allenton Ave. It shatterd the glass but train Operator not injured. He calls Control and they tell him to Proceed in service to E 180 to get a TSS. Train gets there no TSS. Control sez "Keep going in service well get a TSS at 149 St or Grand Central". Train Operator sez that he feels its unsafe to operate because of the wind blowing in his face. The broken glass was the side not the front so control sez it is safe. Now E 180 Dispachor gets in the act tell the Conductor to Close the doors your staying in service. The Conductor said I will not i am checking on the T/O. So know Control is yelling on the radio for the train to move because he's back up the road. T/O AND C/R discharged the train on there own and control gave in but the Train had to wait E Tremont Middle for a TSS.
I think all the Ex. above are outragest!
What do you think?
I don't know all the specifics of the instances you cited. I'm quite willing to look up the incidents in the computer if you provide a date. I have no reason to think that you are being less than truthful but sometimes stories change every time they are repeated and unless these incidents happened to you, I am skeptical that each time the story was repeated it did not change.
I walk between Union Turnpike Station and Jamaica Yard through the portal daily. Several times a week I encounter others (usually RTO personnel) walking the tracks without a vest. Every morning, I see crews walking their trains in the yard, not wearing a vest. Every day I see crews bring a train into the yard and get off at the block. Although we have posted rail in Jamaica Shop 30 track to 33 track, I have T/Os jump from the train once they bring it in, instead of using the ladders.
The point is that we (the employees of the NYC Transit System)have more than enough safety rules to keep us all safe on the job. However what we (management) see is that some employees disregard safety rules when they are inconvenient but use safety rules for other than their intended purpose. I am not saying that this is whay you do but I see examples of both on a daily basis.
All the Incidents were heared on the Radio. I will email the rest if anyone else whats to know just email me or i may post it later
Me I would never jump from the train. I have not really seen that. Now crews not wearing vest that seems to happens daily at most Yards so you got a point there. Me I haven't had to go to the yard that much because I don't pick jobs with Layups or Putins. But when I do go to the Yard I wear my vest. I was a Trackmen before T/O so I know the dangers.
Just a point of interest. I can not look up the official versions of the incidents that you alluded to. RTO documents remain on the system for 28 days before they are stored and removed. The incidents you reported were all over 28 days old.
Ok al keep that in mind. So the next time I hear of an incident like what I wrote about I'll let you know. I haven't heard incident in past few weeks and i should have keeped in mind that this sounded like the same guy at control who gave all 3 orders. I shouldn't have painted a brush on everyone at Control. There are some people who mean what there say. When talking about safety.
I have to admit, I'm pretty involved with my work while riding the subway (or buses). On the #7 train, I always have a seat and can open up my briefcase and plan for my day. I read a lot. Not very lucky on WTC-bound E or C trains so I just stand in the packed cars and desperately anticipate my pull in to West 4th Street. Typically, I mind my business and seldom meet eyes with any other riders. This was not the case this morning.
I met this very attractive younger man on a southbound E train this morning. We struck up a brief conversation about subways around the country (he likes trains too but prefers Washington DC trains- I love NYC subways!). Then dived into some politics (I showed disinterest early on since I'm sick of Clinton topics) and then cities we dream to move to. I did not feel threatened at all sharing conversations with this fine looking gentleman as we swayed back and forth while standing on a bouncy E-train. No, we did not exchange numbers or even names. It was just a brief innocent encounter (I'm single again anyway). Why don't I notice this more often? Instead I hide in my work each day, dileberately refusing to make eye-contact. This was a nice refreshing change. My day has been made.....
Francine
The fault, dear Brutus, lies not in our stars but in our selves.
I too am a friendly guy on the subway and yet whom did I see this morning? and who saw me? Noone.
There are too few chances for extroverts (like me) to share serendipitous "one-on-one" encounters on public transportation. I often find people think there's something "weird" about me because I'm friendly and like to talk to people. (Or maybe it's my marine-corps style haircut that scares them?)
Still, when it happens, it can make my day!
Your experience proves that there are friendly people out there. I've struck up conversations with other people on the subway on occasion, even got into a heavy discussion about rolling stock once (this individual even pointed out the difference between an R-32 and an R-38). For the most part, I mind my own business as I gaze through the storm door window of the first car or squint through the cab window of an R-44, R-46, or R-68.
Let me start by telling you people that I hate New York City (also called NY Crappy). I used to be a bus driver in Dallas and California and now live in your city in the Queens borough. I have to ride a stupid NYC bus to the subway and ride to midtown. I hate your E train! I hate your F train! I hate your 7 train. I hate your J train. Not a single friendly face. Everyone is for "all-mine" and no regard for others. I try to talk friendly with fellow riders but I get blown off like I'm scum. I'm just a friendly guy not from New York Crappy who is wanting to meet some other people. But I get the cold shoulder. Get a clue subway lovers here- Queens subway suck! Don't be fooled- there are no friendly people using YOUR subway system.
Let's see!! You hate the E train. You hate the F train. You hate the J train and your even hate the 7 Train. You hate NY City and you hate Queens. You also hate the busses. On top of that, you find the people here unfriendly. You get blown off by New Yorkers who you say treat you like 'scum'. Why did you leave Dallas? Why did you leave California? Perhaps the people you talk to blow you off because you come across like an IDIOT just like you are coming across here. Just a thought !!!! Let me welcome you to NY City.
<< Let me welcome you to NY City >>
I'll welcome you with a big Bronx cheer: THHPPPFFFFFFFF!!!!!!!!!!
I did not mean to direct anger to you directly. But if you ride the bus everyday especially the Q44 MTA bus, you would sympathize with me concerning bus travel. Unfortunatly, I have to ride the 7 and E or F train each workday sometimes just the 7 train. About once a week I get sent to Brooklyn for a delivery and must take the eerie J train. Let me tell you that you would not want to be caught dead on these subway lines. The crowds are horrible. The people are all rude. And the trains especially the F and 7 trains are so dirty you don't even want to sit down if you could.
I want to adress me for the moment: I am NOT a piss mouth New Yorker who is rude and mean. Yes I do miss Dallas and I even miss California but employment took me out here because I lost my driving jobs when I got fed up with driving buses. I would like YOUR city better if people could wear a smile once in a while and say some nice things to me instead of grunting and ugly looks at me. I'm really a very nice gentleman when you get to know me. New York Crappy won't accept this. I bet you are a good man but I am too. I just can't find good friendly people during my commute each day. I'm new here and I'm too sick of it all.
Of course, if you didn't have such a bad attitude, maybe you would find people in New York who are friendly. With the attitude that you have projected here, along with the Bus/SubwayHater tag and the phoney e-mail address, it's no wonder the messages elicited the responses they got. If your board attitude is like your real attitude, no wonder you get the responses you get.
You may have lost your driving jobs because of attitude. If you really are a "nice gentleman", reveal youself. You may find that the world is really a better place.
I'm a native New Yorker and I think I'm quite friendly. I've been in the DC metro area for 2 years now and many people are suprised when I tell them that I was born and raised in New York. In fact I spent 30 of my 32 years living in the Bronx. My point is that - riding the subway in NYC is quite different from say, Washington DC, but it's wrong to catagorize New Yorkers or any group for that matter. I know there are plenty of friendly people in NYC, but I guess you have to be patient. Also - You must realize that different places are different period. When I came here I found many things to be different - mostly good, but some bad also. The point is - I made the decision to come here and I cannot expect things to be as they were in New York. I hope you do meet some good folks and come to like New York. It's a great city and even though I like the DC area I'll always miss my New York City
Wayne
People never smile on MARTA. It's no different any other place. Society is very cold today and people don't want to get close to strangers. Even neighbors don't get along. Enough of this, I suggest you ride other transit properties. Start with PATH or LIRR.
During the Olympics in Atlanta people from out-of-town appeared to be very happy and of course that was because they were excited by the Olympics. This is different story when people go to and from work.
When I rode the same LIRR train every AM (5:29 out of Ronkonkoma), it was the same people every morning. Naturally, if you see the same faces every AM, you eventually nod, smile or even say good morning. After a few months, you find that you look for them to make your commute shorter (unless like me, you like to close your eyes). Of course, and I'm sure this is not unique on the LIRR, heaven help the interloper who sits in the seat of a 'regular'. I've actually sen physical confrontations and some really nasty verbal confrontations.
On the subways it's different. You rarely see the same people, let alone develop any kind of relationship. If you smile, people view you with skepticism and mis-trust. I suppose NJT & Metro-North are more like the LIRR while Path is like the NYCT subway.
I agree. As a bus rider, there are some folks who I see every day and they at least acknowledge me. There are many others who are totally oblivious, or at least pretend to be.
Weaving in the thread of unruly passengers here, however, I've had some interesting encounters. My bus carries many high school students in the AM. They can get out of hand sometimes. I have found myself breaking up fights, chastising them, and even keeping one or two of them on the bus beyond their stops every so often to remind them that they need to take the needs of other riders into account when they start their antics (other passengers are occasionally jostled and sometimes hurt by what some of the students do). This has not been a problem lately, but of course I've probably just jinxed that. (I have also made it a point to call and write the school principals to let them know what's going on, and this has helped a little.)
Several times, when I've done this, I've been chastised by other riders who think I may be a little too harsh or that I shouldn't be trying to control kids, since "boys will be boys", etc (and sometimes it's girls!). I'm always amazed that people, many of whom complain when the kids act up, get so onery about someone taking the kids to task. Go figure...
Actually, I know on the hudson line of MNCRR, you get to know everyone, and they are all very nice. Once you enter the Deisel section of the line, the towns get alot smaller, and everyone knows everyone. You say hi to the same people on the platform every day, the you get on the train, and say hi to all the same people who sit in your car every day. I did it for 2 years.
I don't think MNCRR's NY lines (I've heard bad stories about the New Haven Line) have nearly the same overcrowding problems that the LIRR has.
The New Hasven line isn't bad at all, it's just that MN is doing so much $%^$%^#&%$& trackwork on it!!!!!
But, once (if?) they finish, it'll be nicer(er). Peopler are friendly, unless your talking about those from greenwich, but that's another issue...
Are they finally putting in welded rail all the way to New Haven? I remember when they redid the inner tracks from Stamford on down to the city; the ride was smoo-oo-ooth. The outer tracks still had standard rail and the accompanying clackety-clack. This was back in 1979-80.
Oh, there's welded rail. It's concrete ties they're finnaly putting in. There's also a LOT of work going on at Stmford and New Haven. I'm waiting for them to re-do the various interlockings, because the current ones are horrible...
Though there is one or two of those way cool moveable frog switches on the line. I wish the LIRR would install those suckers on the main line between Belrose and Jamacia...
I have seen New Haven's Union Station since it was renovated. They did a really nice job. Even the platforms were lengthened to accommodate a 10-car train to Grand Central. Aren't there 3-car sets running on that line now? That's what I thought I saw back in 1995.
The M-2s are married pairs.
The M-4s are triples, and ride like crap. They also make weird humming noises when accelerating.
The M-6s are triples too. They were made by MK - need I say more?
Most New haven trains are 4 - 12 cars, depending on the time of day...
Supposedly the 4's and 6's can be med up into set of more than 3 cars, but I've never seen it done...
During my college years I my girlfriend attended Vassar College in Poughkeepsie and many times I would spend the weekend there and leave on an early AM Express Monday morning. I always felt out of place because I was sure that twice a month on Monday morning I was in someones' regular seat.
Wayne
Obviously this needs to be rectified. Everyone, listen closely. Your assignment for the week is this. Talk to at least one stranger on the subway. Explain why you are talking to them, in order to promote a friendly subway. Try to do it in a manner that doesn't reflect badly on you.
Have you ever heard of the expression:
LIVE AND LET LIVE
Never mind painting all of us with the same broad brush...
Instead of dwelling on the people (whether friendly or not), why not look around the system at some of the things that make it aesthetically pleasing?
Instead of whining and complaining, seek pleasure in that which is around you.
Wayne
NYC is a Darwinian paradise, only the best survive, the others leave for Los Angeles.
There is a housing shortage in NYC. Too many people want to live here. Can you help (by leaving)?
Sir, the question I am forced to ask you is as this. If you hate the subway, what are you doing on a bulletin board for primarilly subway enthusiasts?
We cannot make the trains better for you. If you do not like them, we are, of course, sorry. We obviously do. Perhaps your grievances are best aired elsewhere.
What ARE you doing on a subway lover's site? I am not from New York CITY, but when I come to visit, I also encounter many rude people. However, I also met a whole lot of nice, personable people, some with whom I have become good friends. I love it here, want to go to school here, and especially love the subway. So why don't you open up and you'll meet some friendly faces. If you think people are all going to be jerks, then they will appear to be jerks even if they are not. Ride the subway, talk to people. You'll find it much easier to fit in!
I'll drink to that positive attitude. You know what's cool about New Yorkers, once you know them their you friend for live and they don't sugar coat anything? What you see is what you get.
You go back to Dallas I suggest you ride DART.
It's the same way on MARTA only in terms of people being oblivious to things going on around them. When the trains occassionally buck during acceleration and braking the people don't even look up from their books, magazines and newspapers. The side destination signs on the trains almost always read the wrong destination and people don't even pay attention. They only care about getting to their destination.
I want you know that the New York Subway does not SUCK like you say and they do run an efficient operation. Their cars do have the Highest Mean Mileage Between Failures and the R62 cars have the best reliability in world. It is fact that they have been know to get 150,000 MMBF's.
Vent you frustrations to New York City Transit at 370 Jay Street, Brooklyn, NY 11201.
If you HATE the system and New York City you should go elsewhere. I'm highly offended by your remarks. However, your entitled to say what you must.
Now that you have made your opinions and feelings known, allow me to share mine: there is no place on the face of this Earth that I like to be more than in the confines of the NYC Subway. I choose to surround my senses not with my fellow riders, but with the art and architecture of the stations and the motion, sounds and surroundings of the trains on which I ride. The subway not only moves millions of people in safety each day, it is a great repository of Art in Tile, Terra Cotta/Faience, Brick, Steel, Stone, Marble, Masonry, etc. These noble stations, many restored to look as they did when first opened at the turn of the 20th Century are a great asset to the citizens of New York. Fanciful and colorful mosaics decorate many of the stations, some of them recently created. The IRT and BMT lines are the home to intricate mosaic friezes and castings, some of them consisting of literally millions of hand-cut and hand-set tiles. Even the IND is beautiful in its own way, with bold bands of colored tile adorning their walls, each one similar to the next but slightly different. And the intricate ironwork of the classic elevated lines, some of which are nearly a century old, is an enduring and timeless statement of period architecture and design.
The Subway is my playground and art gallery, and its trains are my beloved playthings. I seek pleasure in these grand creations, and every time I enter this realm, I am richly rewarded.
Wayne L Whitehorne
...Besides, I just read that the Dallas light rail line killed its second pedestrian in less than a month this past Thursday. They also seem to be having problems with rude an unruly kids on some of the light rail trains.
Probably makes some of the drivers want to chuck it all and move to New York.
Well, if you don't like it, go back to Dallas or California.....
-Hank
Just another cowardly jackass that doesnt leave his email address
Like those other places so much why dont you go back to them
My, my, I sense an attitude here. In all fairness, this is a free country and everyone has the right to have their own opinion (let's just hope they don't pass legislation outlawing this!). At the same time, I am reminded of another famous saying: if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
Please take your negative comments elsewhere. This is not the place to vent anti-subway sentiment.
Too bad those friendly people in Dallas or California wish they had a quarter of the transportation we have. Maybe you should ask those friendly people to give you a ride.
I really take offense to SubwayHater's refering to New York City as New York Crappy and if he hates it here so much, why doesn't he just pack his things and go look for a job in Dallas or California. But I must say that service in Queens does suck. The Queens Blvd and Roosevelt Av lines are ridiculously overcrowded. Now there's going to be Q service under Queens Blvd. And there may be also be a V train there as well (I keep hearing about this V train but I would like to know where will it come from and where wiil it go). Is there seriously enough capacity for all of that service, even if the G is cut back to Court Square. And what about the 7, which has so many trains and peak direction service and is still jammed?
It's too bad no one at the MTA has seriously thought about funneling subway trains onto the LIRR. How expensive could it be? It's not like you have to build miles of new subway tunnel like with Second Av. And can't they just reenenergize the third rail so it can safely power subway trains. Couldn't they also get rid of the switches on the LIRR Main Line so subways and LIRR trains would be totally separate from each other? Subway trains could have a separate platform at Jamaica, too. Why does it seem so impossible to do this?
There are too many problems with doing that -- platform height, third rail compatibility and the tougher federal regulations NYCTA would have to comply with if they shared track with the LIRR. That's why down in Washington the Metro's Red line shares a pathway with the B&O (MARTA) lines, but has fencing between the subway and railroad tracks.
The MTA might be able to extend the 7 east from Flushing along the LIRR' Port Washington line, if there was enough space to do the same thing (don't even think about replacing the LIRR line with just a subway, the people in east Queens and Long Island would riot)
If they ran subways on the outside tracks and LIRR trains on the center tracks and removed the switches connecting the outside and center tracks (similar to what is done on the PATH/Amtrak NE Corridor line east of Newark through Harrison and Kearney, NJ - and there's no fence at all unlike Boston and Washington) wouldn't that keep the subway and LIRR tracks completely separate. And as far as I know, both the subway and LIRR use the over-running 3rd rail, but different voltage. Still, couldn't the outside tracks be re-energized to handle subway cars?
You're probably right about the platform height, especially considering if the MTA were to convert the Woodside, Forest Hills, and Kew Gardens LIRR stations to subway operation as well as setting aside one platform at Jamaica Station for subways. I don't know what the difference in floor height between the LIRR cars and subways is. That's probably something the RPA should have taken into account when they suggested converting the Port Washington LIRR line into a subway line a couple of years back as part of their Rx plan. They also should have realized that Port Wash is single track north of Great Neck with a railroad crossing at Douglaston or Little Neck (I can't remember which one it was). Oh, well. Looks like we'll have to wait for money to grow on trees before something is done to relieve the overcrowded E, F, and 7 trains.
PATH is subject to FRA regs for a variety of reasons; that would obviate the need for separation between PATH and the NE corridor.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
PATH is still subject to FRA regulations? I knew it was when it first started running the H&M service, but I thought those regulations were eventually relaxed. I have yet to see three headlights in a triangle on PATH trains, which I know is an FRA regulation. What other FRA regulations is PATH subject to?
Though your tone is hostile, I hear where you are coming from. I'm a native New Yorker, but frankly, NY - its buses, its subways, are filthy and disgusting. Reading the postings here I'm astonished at the tolerance of the crap conditions of this underground toilet, and its hostile, angry, sullen ridership. It's clear that most of the users of this site have rarely - if ever - been out the northeast US. Their ignorance of really beautiful transit systems such as Singapore, Hong Kong, Tokyo, and most European cities is abysmal. They think the NYC subway is normal. That's the 'NY mentality': acceptance of unbelievably bad urban management that Americans in other parts of the country long ago refused to put up with. Queens, Brooklyn, the Bronx, Staten Island? Whew! Ugly, third-world places full of obscenity spewing ugly people. You should head back down south...
Please check your e-mail address. I tried to e-mail you several times,
and my messages were returned as "user unknown". I was e-mailing you,
because I'm seeking a few "transit friends" and pen pals. I'm from the
Philadelphia area, and if you want, I can tell you about SEPTA, as
well as send you some photos I've taken of Philadelphia's and New
York's subways. Please drop me a line at timtodd@hotmail.com.
I have to hop on Timothy's boat, here. Though most everyone here is more than familiar with the basic operations and history of the NYC subway, many posters come from areas not even close to New York, but still with great subways of thier own( such as myself, from Philly and a few others hailing from Boston, Washington, Baltimore and Chicago.)
Though none are as large, as complex and(with the exception of one) as old as the NYC subway, I think any subway-buff would do well to learn a little about these, too(think of starting in the next major city south of NYC......).
OK, I'm done now.
But Raleigh doesn't have a subway :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That's right. The MTA is holding a "Pick your favorite MetroCard and favorite MetroCard Holder" contest.
Go to : http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/metrocard/votewin/votewin.htm
for all the information. They have pictures of all the special issue cards with the date and number printed.
Winner will receive all 77 special issue MetroCards and the 5 MetroCard Holders.
S-o-o-o-o many of those cards I don't have :-(
But eye did just get a few from the Olympics @ Atlanta from a new friend :-) ... sorry no extras ...
Mr t__:-D
I e-mailed the address on the NYCT web site and did get a response. The popsters can not be sold "due to individual licensing requirements" but they are "available free at the Transit musuem with a 'minimum purchase'contact the Transit Museum at 718-243-8601"
Many thanks to our Token Booth Agent aka Subway-Buff & Connie from the Transit Museum. With their help I ordered Peter Dougherty's subway track plan book & was able to get the MetroCard poster :-D
BTW, the mininum order to get the poster is $35.00.
Mr t__:^)
Thurston,
I know how you feel.
I did not know some of those were even in existance.
Allan
After the Ave.S split, the H line would cut across Ave.S making stops such as:
E.36 St/Ave.S
Gerritsen Av/Ave.S
Ave.U-Gravesend Neck Rd/Nostrand Av**
Ave. Y/Nostrand Av
Shore Pkwy/Nostrand Av
Kingsborough Community College-Manhattan Beach
H Train: Weekdays: Express 5am-11pm Local: Nights: Local
I Train: Weekdays: Local 5am-11pm Weekends: Operate to S.4 St 8am-11pm
Nights: Shuttle between Kings Plaza and Ave.S
** Some rush hour H trains would run express from Manhattan Beach to S.4 St. Express stop after Ave.S would be Ave.U followed by Manhattan Beach. This would be in the peak direction only. This entire line would be subway except after E.36 St, where it would become elevated at the Marine Park area. Comments, suggestions?
Do not make it an elevated. El's ruin neighborhoods and generate considerable NIMBY's. Why not just keep it underground?
If the Utica Part 2 were ever to have been completed it would have to be done as an EL as it goes toward the southern most parts of Brooklyn -- Mill Basin/Kings Plaza sections -- since the topography of the area is mostly muck (ie, marshlands and swamp-like soil). The northern areas of Brooklyn -- and most of the city for that matter --is solid rock, composed mostly out of slate and limestone (if my memory is correct). South Brooklyn and the rest of the southshore areas of Long Island are similar Coastal Tidal Basins much like most of southern Florida. Which is also the reason why Miami has a rapid transit line that is completely elevated (It's also a joke of a system since all it does is make a giant U-turn through South Dade County).
That is true i correct myself it would elevate after the Kings Hwy-Ave.H stop.
The IND Second System called for both the Nostrand and Utica Ave. lines to emerge at some point (don't remember exactly) onto elevated structures before reaching Voorhies Ave.
It was supposed to be between Ave.S and Ave.U
I rode the F train south of Jay St. for the first time the other night.
I noticed after Carroll St. that there are unused express tracks in the center of the line...a couple of stations had the F train stopping on the side tracks, with the center tracks having the "All service on opposite track" signs above them.
Does anyone know when these express tracks were last used, for what kind of service they were used, and why they stopped using them?
It was used for the F express when the G went to Church Ave. (It might be used again in a couple of years if the extend the G back to Church. My opinion). According to a report that is in this index(G train) It was last used in 1976. It is sometimes used however for reroutes.
It's possible that budget cuts could have been one reason for discontinuance of F express service. The Bowling Green-South Ferry shuttle was discontinued at about the same time because of budget cuts.
I'm tempted to say low ridership was another reason, but I could be wrong.
Steve: The F Culver Express service died" the death of a thousand cuts." Beginning in 1968 all F's ran exp btwn Jay and Church in both directions during the rush and the Coney Is F's ran exp btwn Church and Kings Hwy. This left local people btwn Jay and Church with no direct service to Manhattan during rush, so the Kings Highway F's would make all local stops in Bkyln in the direction of heavy traffic while running exp btwn Jay and Church in the light direction.This still wasn't good enough so all F's ran local in the direction of traffic btwn Jay and Church(The Coney Is F's still ran exp btwn 18 Av and Kings Highway). In the direction of light travel all F's ran exp btwn Jay & Church. Finally even this was stopped and all F's ran local between Jay and Church though a rump express service was kept btwn 18 Av and Kings Hwy for a while and then this was gone too.
Yes, the people in Park Slope do deserve direct service to Manhattan but what about the poor souls in southern Brooklyn who must endure "the ride of a thousand stops" on the F from Coney up to Manhattan. Surely there must be a better solution.
Regards,Larry,RedbirdR33
[what about the poor souls in southern Brooklyn who must endure "the ride of a thousand stops" on the F from Coney up to Manhattan]
Those poor souls could've taken the D instead and then transfered to the Q if it was available instead of the F all the way to Manhattan. Actually here's an interesting question:
Of all the lines going from Coney Island to Manhattan, which one gets there the fastest?
It would be a tossup between the B and the N, I would say, since they each have an express run along 4th Ave.
I checked out the answer on the MTA website. Schedules are back, but there are problems -- the times don't line up with the titles due to tab over problems. Nonetheless, I was able to get some info.
From Brooklyn, the key issue is how long it takes to get to Midtown, since Downtown is closer. They don't give the same stations for each line, but from in the AM rush (leaving Coney around 7:30) it is
50 minutes to 34th -- B
53 minutes to 34th -- F
56 minutes to Rock Center D
64 minutes to 57th St -- N
As has been discussed, without direct service via bridge the Sea Beach stinks unless you work Downtown. It's not so great to Downtown either, what with the crawl through DeKalb, Lawrence, and Boro Hall.
And what of those who don't live near the D? If you get on at Ave P, you should have instead walked from McDonald Ave to the Brighton line? The better idea would be for short-turn F trains. One that originates at Coney Island and goes express from Church Ave to Jay St,and maybe turns at 71st/Continental; and a local that starts at Church Ave and runs the rest of the route as-is now. The F is certainly a long enough route that it could be split.
-Hank
(Split the F) at the cost of running trains every 10 minutes at both the top and bottom of the line? Well, if the G was extended to Church to retain 5 or six minute headways at rush hour in the close-in areas, then maybe. If I happened to hit a G, I would have the option of going up to 7th Avenue and changing. Those at 4th Ave, Smith 9th, Carrol and Bergen, however, would not have that option. You'd bet they'd fight it.
Now if short-running the F would free enough trains to increase Brooklyn F service overall (since some wouldn't be on the track between Church and Coney Island), and you could do 8 F train per hour on the express and 8 F trains and 6 G trains on the local, then maybe.
Perhaps some of you car assignment experts could figure out how many trains could run on each without changing the total number of cars or personnel, especially given the fact that it appears you have 16 to 18 trains per hour coming in from Queens at the peak hour.
I wonder if the cost of fixing up the express Bergen Street platforms would be worth it.
I haven't been there, but from what I've read, most of the access tunnels were covered in a renovation. It would take quite a bit of work to restore the platforms and provide for access from the locals. It's too bad, because this would be the easy answer to your first point about riders between 7th and Bergen, since all current F riders would have the opportunity of accessing the F without backtracking.
(Bergen Lower level and F local). There would still be a problem for Carrol St riders who board the G. The next F train to Manhattan could be on either of two levels, so you'd have to run up or down the stairs to catch the next train. Those going to Downtown could always travel on to Hoyt Schemerhorn and cross over, but those going to Midtown would be out of luck.
Moreover, at some point a renovation is sufficiently large to require adherence to the handicapped access law, a big bucks item.
The only hope is if the trains saved by not running some trains all the way to Kings Highway or Coney Island allows the number of peak hour trains to rise from 12-14 to 16, with 8 inner local and 8 outer expresses. Then you might convince people an F train every 7-8 minutes is not so much worse than every 5 minutes, so its OK to cut service in the inner areas (augmented by an extended G). Perhaps those experienced in train scheduling could work this one out.
First off why did New York City destroy Bergen St. lower level?? And second, it shouldn't cost that much and be a major inconvience to rennovate it. After all they fixed up the upper level for no reason at all. If they can do that, then they can fix up the lower level.
The first sentence should read why did New York City Transit destroy the Bergen St. lower level??
My understanding is that there is a spring in the vicinity. My own recollection circa thirty years ago was indeed wet platforms.
Since my prior posts failed to induce someone more knowlegable (ie. Steve) to produce a schedule, I've decided to goad everyone by trying it myself.
According to the MTA website, the F runs every 4 minutes from Queens and every 5 minutes from Brooklyn in the AM rush, with half the trains turning around at Kings Highway. Let's assume that you'd have to provide F service every 7.5 minutes (ie. 8 per hour) plus extended G service to induce those on inner portions of the F to fight less hard against express service. How many additional trains would be required?
It is 65 minutes from 179th to Church, 10 mintues on to Kings Highway, and another 10 mintues on to Coney Island. At the peak, therefore, there should be 17 trains F southbound and 15 northbound from 179th to Kings Highway, and one each southbound and northbound from Kings Highway to Coney Island, a total of 34 (plus those laying over).
Now the express option. Running trains every 3.8 minutes over the 65 minute run from 179th to Church run (16 per hour), you have 17 in each direction just from 179th to Church. Half (one per 7.5 minutes) continue on to Coney Island, with 2 1/2 in each direction on the 20 minute run from Coney Island to Church. That's a total of 39 trains, an increase of 5 or 40 cars. Then there is the extended G service. Its 12 minutes from Smith/9th to Church, but it should be easier to turn around at Church, so lets just say you add one train in each direction. Now you're up to 7 more trains, or 52 more cars (if the G's are six long). And 7 more operators and 7 more conductors.
Now you probably save a little by having the F run express from Jay ot Church. Say you save 1/2 train in each direction since it is spending less time on the road. And, if you were to run half the Fs express from 179th to Continental, you might save another 1/2 train in each direction. That brings you to 3 extra F trains and 2 extra G trains, and 36 additional cars, and 10 extra employees.
But the TA doesn't have the cars. And I don't see the TA adding any service for the outer part of Brooklyn. If the MTA, Giuliani and Pataki cared about the people who lived there, they would probably be building a tunnel to replace the cracking Manhattan Bridge.
Good lord, it's too bad you don't work for operations and planning....
perhaps the G could be run to CHurch Avenue. They can relay downstairs. Perhaps in addition to G line service to Church and F Expresses between Jay ST and Church that would run through to Kings Highway and Coney Island, you could run some of the F trains local between Jay and CHurch, turn them at church as well, this would provide the gentry of Park Slope and Carrol Gardens with service directly to Manhattan with the chance of some empty seats and no need to change trains from the G. (A previous post suggested that Bergen lower be reopened but they'll never do that)
Here's the thing people fail to realize, as long as the Bergen St. Express stop is left unusable, the residents of Brooklyn Heights will be fighting to prevent restoration of service. So forget about coming up with all these fancy theoretical schedules.
When the R-143s arrive the TA may be in a little better situation as far as the cars go. As for the upstairs/downstairs quandry for Bergen St. riders, when they finally get those digital signs in they should be able to give passengers enough advance notice on which F train will arrive first so they can go to the right platform (Though you're right that any renovation now will probably require putting in four elevators to meet ADA regulations)
Not really. Woodahven Blvd. and countless other stations were renovated within the last ten years. The rules only apply I believe to rennovated stations if they meet certain conditions. Remember, the upper level was rennovated. So they could easily finish renovating the lower levl/ the only thing they really have to do is fix the walls and install lighting. There's not much traffisc down there so that i couldn't be too hard to finish.
You won't need to open up the lower level if they run some of the F's local, or better yet, send all F's express and have a new line-- the V run local.
This builds on Eric's statement. Nothing needs to be done on Bergen Street in this scenario:
F trains could run exactly as they do now (or exactly as they are supposed to run after 63rd connection, which I believe shouldn't change anything), EXCEPT that they run express from Church through Bergen. The switches would be permanently set north of Ditmas.
The G and newly-created V lines would terminate at Church Avenue. They would both travel local from Church through Bergen. Afterwards, the G would branch off onto the crosstown line, and immidiately north the F and V lines would merge. They would both travel local through Rockefeller Center, where the V would continue north through the 63rd street tunnel and the F travels as it does today.
I've inferred from other posts in Subtalk that something is already in the making with a V line concerning the 63rd street connection. This scenario would, in my opinion, be perfect for the lower section of that line. Service on the local 6th Ave. tracks and the Rutgers Street tunnel is below capacity, and this would fill it nicely.
This assumes the Manhattan Bridge is completed and the Q proceeds up Broadway, rather than Sixth Avenue (where it might cause a bit more confusion), to 63rd street.
Very good idea; except I'd swap the F and V express and local in Brooklyn and make the V the express. It's six of one, half a dozen of the other.
Wayne
But would this give you more trains per hour than Larry's F local/express plan, or are you just changing the letter designation on some of the trains without increasing the total? Remember, between Jay St. and 47th-50th Sts. the F and V would still have to use the same track, so that puts a limit on how many trains per hour could run on the Brooklyn segment.
Not changing the number of actual trains, just how it operates between Church Avenue and Jay Street - I'd prefer seeing the V operate as express, since the route designation AND the express service would both be new. This may lessen confusion once implemented.
Wayne
Running the 2nd Queens Blvd local through to Brooklyn would require even more trains, so don't count on it. It might be implemented temporarily when the Manhattan Bridge is closed, with more service on the Culver balanced by service cuts on the other lines, but otherwise expect an existing serivce (ie. the Q) to be lined up with the new Queens Blvd lines, rather than two separate services.
Once the Q is re-routed up Broadway, they can turn the V at 57th St-6 Ave.
It best use would be from 6AM to 9PM Mon-Fri, like the Q currently does. Broadway-Queens Q service should expand to weekends and to at least late evenings Mon-Fri.
Wayne
Agreed on the lighting and wall tile (pre-fab tile would be OK but if it were me I'd go for the full treatemnt like they did upstairs) BUT there is one additional enemy I have only recently been made aware of:
WATER. Lots of it. Makes Chambers St.BMT and Canal Broadway look like a dripping tap, so I hear.
Wayne
Perhaps the only way we will ever see regular revenue service on those tracks again is if a current proposal under evaluation to connect the Brighton line tracks with the F express tracks with a new tunnel under Prospect Park ever sees the light of day. Personally, I wouldn't hold my breath on this one.
Another proposal years ago had the F line connected to the N line from CHurch Av to New Utrect Av. This would allow them to tear down the Culver elevated (F line). The idea was that property values are decreased by elevated and the idea is to eliminate them. Eventually i'm going to post some of the more robust proposals bandied about that I have in a book that covered Mayor Ed Kochs Transportation office in the late 70s. It covered proposals for expansion from both the mayors office and the MTA.
(Ed Koch's transportation proposals). Perhaps Koch was the first public official to figure out you got as much ink in the paper for publishing studies of improvements as for making them, and at a lower price.
Does anyone know a web site or other source of information on the elevated freight line that served the west side of Manhattan, including the Meat Packing District and the West Village.
Many portions of it remain in Chelsea, although the parts below 14th St. -- many of which ran through buildings such as the Western Electric building made into Westbeth -- have largely been razed to make way for luxury housing.
The line was featured at length in one of John Cassavettes' first movies in the late 1950s (I think the portion that would today be near the Javits Center), and I think ran to at least Canal Street, and possibly farther south along Washington Street.
Anything at all would be most helpful. Thanks.
The one thing I know about its recent history is that ConRail wanted to use it to move solid waste out of the city -- ie commercial recycled paper -- but the wealthy people moving in to the industrial area want it torn down.
The railroad used to run down 11th Avenue, when the entire West Side was heavily industrial and port. It was depressed/elevated as part of the "West Side Improvement" some time earlier in the century. I think Robert Moses was involved, but I'm not sure.
[The one thing I know about its recent history is that ConRail wanted to use it to move solid waste out of the city -- ie commercial recycled paper -- but the wealthy people moving in to the industrial area want it torn down.]
This episode was a true display of brilliance on Conrail's part. When they had the idea of using the line for transporting waste paper, they decided to be good neighbors and sought the input of area residents. As one might imagine, the residents went ballistic and Conrail quickly kiboshed the idea. Yet Conrail would have been completely within its rights to have started the service without notifying anyone. Although the line had been disused for several years by that point, it never had been formally abandoned and therefore Conrail had complete control over the resumption of service.
The way I understand it the line was used by the New York Central which I can remember running as late as the mid 1970s. About 10 or 12 years ago, I approched a security guy at a parking lot around 16th Street, over which the line ran and asked if I could climb up to the tracks. He said "go ahead" he was as curious as I was. I climbed up an iron piling and squeeked through some razor wire and I was in. It was remarkably quiet and grown over with grass. I walked to where the tracks enter a tunnel around 35th street and followed the tunnel uptown, taking pictures as I went. The tunnel is part tunnel, part cut and runs up to the old train yards in the 60s, now TrumpLand. That's where I escaped via a hole I knew in a fence in Riverside park. The tracks run under the park. When we were kids we use to play down there. In the 80s it was populated by many homeless. I knew a guy named Bernard who lived down there in an old blockhouse that was for switching or something. It was around 97th Street. Bernard and a transient population would build campfires and sit around. There was a drug scene down there I suppose, and also Via the 83rd Street entrance to the tunnels in the park there was a gay sex scene. Anyone, even train buffs would be very surprised at just how much room there is down there. It's almost unbelevable to think there could be so much space in Manhattan. In the late 80s, the tracks were ripped up and I believe Amtrack built new tracks and ran trains through there. The homeless situation changed and rail traffic ran most of the people out of there. I assume Amtrack only ran down to the West Side rail yards. The Elevated portion hasn't been in service for years as far as I know. If you post more specific questions It might jar my memory a little more.
Chris.
The track down the West Side and through the tunnel was rebuilt for a new Amtrak connection to Penn Station. The elevated portion, as I understand it, is no longer connected to anything - at least that's how it appeared when I walked around the 35th street area about a year ago. Perhaps someone else out there can offer more information, and/or correct me if I've goofed.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The line used to run just to the west of 10th Ave. from 12th St. to 30th St., then turned west at 30th and ran over past 11th Ave. to the West side yards. I think even before that, there was a split between 10th and 11th and ran down into an open cut that has since been replaced by the entrance and exit ramps to the Lincoln Tunnel between 30th and 42nd Sts. I know if you walked between 10th and 11th Ave. in the upper 40s or lower 50s about 10 years ago, the open cut was still visible between buildings, with the street crossing it via a bridge. From about 50th St. north it started to angle to the northwest towards the NY Central yard at 63rd St.
If you can find an old Encyclopedia Britanica from right after WWII, I think the map they had of New York in there included that rail line.
The open cut is still there, it's what the Amtrak uses going upstate, now
According to a 1949 Hagstrom map, the line ran along the west side down to at least West Houston Street. At that point they apparently terminated in the St. Johns Building. The building is still there, though it may have a different name now. In fact the building passes over West Houston Street, but I don't know if that structure ever contained tracks as it is enclosed. As others here have noted the right of way was broken up in the early 1980s.
Construction of the Javits Center required a "temporary" interruption of service while a bridge was replaced. Freight customers were obliged to use trucks for the duration. This interruption lasted much longer than planned (gee, who woulda guessed?), long enough that the customers decided to stay with trucks.
My understanding is that the freight railroad ran down to Washington Market, where the WTC is today. But that might have been when it was at-grade in 11th Ave, before it was elevated.
[My understanding is that the freight railroad ran down to Washington Market, where the WTC is today. But that might have been when it was at-grade in 11th Ave, before it was elevated.]
That could be. Once elevated, the line ran no farther south than what's now the area of the Holland Tunnel entrance.
The West Side Railroad(as it was commonly called) open in 1849 from a terminal near Chambers Street and ran north to Ossining by 1851 reached Albany. It was built by the "Hudson River Railroad" and the main terminal was in the vicinity of what is now the 30 St Frieght Yards.The Line ran at street level from 30 St south and according to a law then in effect trains running on the street had to be preceded by a man on horseback waving a red flag. These horseman were known as "West Side Cowboys."The line was elevated south of 30 St during the 30's and ran to a massive terminal at St John's Park which had I believe about 10 tracks. The line was also electrified until I believe the 1950's. It was home to the famous DE-3 tri-power units which could run on electric,diesel and battery power. By 1978 or earlier the line was known as the West 30 Street Secondary Track even though it still ran as far south as 12 St.
Regards,Larry,Redbird
More tid bits. About 3-4 years ago a friend of mine shot a film in an abandoned train station built within one of those buildings down around Westbeth. This was connected to the overgrown elevated tracks I mentioned above. Like me they had to climb up.
Also, yes, there definately is a cut between 10th and 11th North of the Lincoln Tunnel. It runs under the cross streets but for the most part is open within the blocks. Usually there is just a chain link fence on the side streets where you can look (or climb) down into the cut. There use to be a homeless scene down there. I too pictures about 10-12 years back when I walked through.
As I mentioned above there is a lot of space down there. Not as much in the cut as there is under Riverside Park, but even if they didn't use it for trains, they could convert it for some kind of thruway for commercial traffic which is so heavy along 9th and 10th and 11th Aves.
I hope that this new Trump project in the train yards has allowed to maintain the right of way because this is probobly the best untapped resource in New York County as far as through traffic is concerned.
I am doing an investigative report on the vandalism in NYC subway, and am focusing on the scratching aspect. I would like to have some pictures of interiors that are scratched up, but also plain graffiti will do. Please email me at ruffalo@adelphia.net if you can help. Thanks!
We have the glass scratching on MARTA and on every car. Scratchi seems to be on the rise.
We have the glass scratching on MARTA and on every car. Scratchitti seems to be on the rise.
This morning I began my commute by boarding the El at 30th St. As I was walking to fare control I noticed a sign on the token booth window which said(and I'm paraphrasing slightly):
I don't sell tokens
I don't sell passes
I don't make change
SO DON'T ASK
No sob stories.
Passing through the turnstile with a chuckle, I went to the platform waiting for the train and heard two kids making fun of people boarding a train of M-3's, saying "They have to ride the slow train!"
I would have much rather been on one of those than the M-4 that arrived on my side.
Along the way the train was of course stalled because of signals(a common occurance at rush hour around 8 AM for some reason).
When I finally arrived at 15th St, I went to transfer to the subway at City Hall. When I got down the local had arrived. As I boarded the express train was coming in on the other side. Now this I notice often when riding the subway.
The local arrives at the station first, than the express a few moments later. The local stays naturally after the express train passenger have transferred to the local and vice versa, but the train stayed for another express train, and still another after that(all in the space of about 6 minutes).
When I finally got to my destination, I was exiting the station and ran into an argument between an woman and the station attendant, arguing because he doesn't sell tokens. She yelled out loud, "SEPTA is one f****d up system!"
After nodding my agreement, I left.
I just thought it was a weird sort of morning.
My Tuesday morning on SEPTA was even better! A train was in the station right when I came down the stairs at 34th street. I thought I was lucky - until I found out that train had been there for 15 minutes. Five minutes later, a SEPTA employee came to the door and told us all to take a trolley or a bus to 15th street. Great. I ended up being 20 minutes late for work because of it.
Apparently, a nice new M-4 trainset was stuck at 30th street. I saw the stalled train as I went through 30th street on a trolley 10 minutes later. There were all sorts of engineers, but the train was still stuck, with what looked like only the front half even in the station.
I spoke with a SEPTA employee not more than a month ago who told me that there is no reason such a train should block the line for more than 7 minutes - that was his goal, to have all dead trains cleared off the line in 7 minutes if they couldn't fix it right away. I'm not sure how feasible that is, but that's what he said.
Isn't SEPTA wonderful? Why is it so serious about change when it's got customer service down to a science?
I heard about the delays this AM. Curiously, the frequent traffic reports carried by TV and radio made no mention other than the stock "mass transit on or close to schedule".
They forgot one thing on that token booth sign: other than that, enjoy your ride.
As for those kids, they'd probably say the same thing about the R-68s.
Oh no!
The kids also said they liked the M-4's because they're "shiny"(compared to the M-3's, they are).
So I'm sure they'd love theR-68's!
That'll learn 'em!:):):)
There were a couple other things that came to mind after re-reading your post. First, about the sign saying "I don't sell tokens. I don't sell passes. I don't make change. SO DON'T ASK." - there really should be a sign like that on every booth. If SEPTA is going to continue their ridiculous policy of having some booths sell tokens and not others, they need to mark the booths clearly so that people know.
I used the 34th Street station daily for six months before I found out that one booth sold tokens. My first experiences at that station were when the one that DID sell tokens was closed, so assumed neither one did and I just always remembered to buy tokens when I was downtown. There really need to be signs that say "TOKENS SOLD HERE" and "NO TOKENS SOLD HERE - EXACT CHANGE ONLY" in huge letters.
The second thing that came to mind is the issue of speed. Are the M-4s really any faster? The M-3s sure seemed to fly at times. The M-4s can go pretty fast, but faster than the M-3s?
So maybe I must be too old, but last I looked most coinage and paper money was "legal tender" and it is long past time the Feds educate the various TA's etc about "good for all debts public and private" i. e. refusal to accept US coinage for services desired should be explicitly forbidden.
The M-4's certainly *accelerate* faster, but as far as speed, I'm pretty sure those "Almond Joys" got 'em beat.
Though the M-4's do fly down the straightaways on the Kensington Avenue side.
The H and I would become elevated after the Kings Hwy-Ave. H stop. The express tracks would go on top of the local at Ave.S before turning onto Ave.S
How come on the No.6 Line Supervisers tell you if the Conductor has one wide cab in one car but a singal cab in the other that train can't go down the road. But on the No.1 Line its a normal acurants.
A Conductor said the reason why is to prevent all the doors from flying open. He said this happened on an R 68 AT 168 St.
Is that True?
Steve maybe you can shine some light on this?
Any one who knows about the techical stuff is most wecome to comment.
David,
It may have something to do with the fact that the trains on the #1 line with transverse cabs are linked 5 car families, while the cars on the #6 line with transverse cabs are not yet linked. Also, I am aware of the situation of having only 1 transvers cab at the conductors position on the #1 line, but I have never heard of this situation on the #6 line. I work VR as a Conductor and get around quite a bit. Under what conditions would this problem arise at Pelham Bay.
I have no Idea there was a Conductor from B Division that said that. He claimed it happened on an R 68 AND SEZ the same can happen on a R 62. How could he campare the R 68 with a R 62. But the 6 Line avoids it. The incident didn't happen at Pelham it was on a B train at 168 St.
I would think there is only one such train on the #1 line at any time.
As soon as the barn links another 5 cars, I would think it would be added to the mismatched 5 ASAP. For a conductor, it is no fun operating left handed to South Ferry and back.
Yes I know what your saying Im I regualer on the No.1 Line hopefully just for this one and only pick. This comeing pick I'm going to the East Side. Anyway usely when my conductor has a wide cab we just spend a Minute or 2 at Rector St. To get people out of the back section. Anyway thanks for the Info.
Also, I think they have linked the 68's. The conductor from the B div may have experinced the same thing that is occuring on the #1 line. Were the 68's delivered as single units?
Yes, the R-68s were delivered as single units. Every once in a while, you'd get lucky and find a train whose first car had the half cab facing out. I rode on a few Q trains like that.
And, yes, they are being linked into 4-car sets.
Thanks Steve B., I never did pay much attention to the B Div. Although in a few years when I have enough senority to get a decent number on vacation relief I plan on going over and checking it out. By then it will be a nice way to break up the monatiny(sp?) for a while.
There is a certain amount of logic to having a transverse cab facing a transverse cab in service. In this situation, the Conductor can change positions if necessary (due to mechanical problems) and still be on the boards. I don't know why the #1 line has different rules than the #6 line. Mechanically/electrically, I can't se any difference. This will or should never happen with R-68s, however. By RTO Bulletin, any R-68 in revenue service must have 2 transverse cabs at the C/Rs operating position. There is no such rule about the train operator's position and the consist can have a #2 cab (corner cab) head out. This is rarely done for the comfort of the train operator.
#2 go express from 149st 3 ave to Gun Hill Road than local to 241st
#12 go express from 149st 3 ave to 180st than local to Gun Hill Road only Rush Hour.
#5 go local to Dyre Ave.
#4 go skip 138st than express from 149st to Burnside Ave than local to Woodlawn.
#8 go skip 138st than local from 149st to Burnside Ave only Rush Hour.
#6 go express from 138st 3 ave to Parkchester E177st than local to Pelham Bay Park.
#10 go local from 138st 3 ave to Parkchester E177st Rush Hour only.
That My Opinion
In my opinion, the 8 can happen. However, there would be major changes in your plan. First, the 8 MUST go to Woodlawn. The 4 can be an express in the peak direction. Second, the 8 must go to Manhattan. If you think that the MTA will EVER run a Bronx-only shuttle during rush hour, you've severely overestimated the MTA's generousity. The 8 can run skip-stop with the 6 in Manhattan and terminate at Bowling Green. I am currently constructing a layout of the subway on a program I have and I will test its feasibility.
Unless the Ta hits the lotto the service will remain the same except for the return of the #6 to Brooklyn Bridge on the midnights. This gives both east and west side IRT lines a local and express service on the midnights.
Belive it of not Transit has considered running the No.6 Line Local to Brooklyn Bridge during nights. This is only talk and theres Nothing Offical on it. The MTA is still looking in to it. Also this is JUST A RUMOR. Talk is they may send to 6 to Bowling Green at Nights. There even talking about making the No. 8 train a Parkchestor Exp and the No. 6 local to Pelham because of problems with the swich + Wheel Ditector slow up service.
Does anyone who anything concrete on this?
As I said in a previous post, the talk is serious about #6 to BBGE on the midnite forr the stated reason (local and express services on the midnight).
As for the Parkchester Express it has been talked about and suggested by the line superintendents (and district general as well). Operationally it is a great idea because a train relaying would only plug one service and not two. Only one service would need to use the switches(the Parkchester Express)
I do not know anything about this but over the summer I went to Hunter College and when I got off the 6 and it started to pull out of the station, I noticed a green 8 sign between cars........
What would make local stops between 149th St. and Burnside Ave?
Please ignore the previous post, I seem to have misread the original message. Nevertheless, the proposals do seem unlikely.
The idea of having the Dyre Ave. train be the local and the White Plains Rd. train be the express makes operational sense, since it would avoid the need for the trains to cross each others' paths when leaving E. 180th St. northbound. But since most riders want an express to Lexington Ave., it still seems unlikely.
(Please ignore the previous post, I seem to have misread the original message. Nevertheless, the proposals do seem unlikely)
You have no respect for typing this and this subtalk is giving everyone a idea or opinion or other stuff. IF you don't like it than don't read it.
I was referring to MY OWN previous post, which I realized didn't make sense (asked a question whose answer was clear on re-reading what I was responding to). I was not asking anyone to ignore anyone's post but my own!
Still, it sucks that the 2 has to make those extra stops in Harlem and then all local stops in the Bronx. Manhattan to Dyre Av in rush hour is really fast, by comparison (normally!). Those of us who ride the 2 from the West Side would definately appreciate an express run through the Bronx. I know I would (having been on the 2 train rerouted up the express track a few times).
Here some my opinion in the Future on A Divsion
Make more skip stop on and from 242st to 96st on Rush Hour only.
go express from 149st 3 Ave to Gun Hill Road than local to 241st Rush Hour only. Midday local.
go express from 149st 3 Ave to E180st than local to terminate at Gun Hill Road Rush Hour only.
same
and should make skip stop from Woodlawn to 149st Rush Hour only.
should go local from 149st 3 ave to Drye Ave.
go local to E177st.
go express from 138st to E177st than local to Pelham Bay Park Rush Hour Only
go local to Main st.
go express from Queensboro Plaza to Main st.
There has been talk abaout C train service going to Eucild Ave. on the weekends right?I'm young,my opinion may not be of any value but this is what they should do with C train service.
1 C trains should go to Lefferts Blvd ALL TIMES except between midnite,& 5:30am.Bus service replacing trains between Rockaway Blvd,& Lefferts at those hours.That will give Far Rockaway passengers frequent A train service.
2 During rush hour run some E train service into Brooklyn terminating at Euclid Ave making local stops,since the E train runs more frequently than the C train.It will ease some crowdedness.The E has 10 cars,whereas the C only has 8 cars,6 cars on the r110b.
[Bus service replacing trains between Rockaway Blvd,& Lefferts at those hours]
Absolutely not!! The highest value of NYC's subway system comes from the 24 hour service. All stations deserve that.
Josh–
Actually, you already have bus service replacing subway service during late night hours on the Number 3 line between 135th and 148th Streets.
That's three stations. I believe the area Damian is talking about consists of five stations (I don't have my map in front of me).
I don't think it would be a big deal, although I can understand why you would.
Michael
[Actually, you already have bus service replacing subway service during late night hours on the Number 3 line between 135th and 148th Streets.
That's three stations. I believe the area Damian is talking about consists of five stations (I don't have my map in front of me).]
Three stations here, five there. Before you know it the entire system closes at 11 and buses take over until 6. It's a precedent we do not want to set and it saddens me that it's already occuring on the 3 line.
Isnt Harlem Hospital in that area between 135 and 148th?
Harlem Hospital is right on the corner of 135th and Lenox, you can get there on the #2. Very few people take the subway to hospitals though.
The Lenox Ave. spur has been shutting down during midnight hours on-and-off for decades; I'm pretty sure the 1964 World's Fair map shows it as "no service 1-5 AM". There may not have even been replacement bus service back then.
Back in the 1960's this was know as the 145 St Shuttle and it ran only on weekdays from about 9p-1a, on weekend the regular #3 ran until about midnight. The Lenox Terminal Station opened on May 13,1968 and then the shuttle ran whenever the regular #3 was not running.This remained in effect until 9/30/90 when the shuttle was replaced by a bus. There is still a remenant of the shuttle service left, it runs late Sat & Sun evenings and early Sun morn(7-10a).
Regards,Larry,RedbirdR33
Thank you very much for that info....
Hey, try taking a J or M train to Broad Street on the weekends.
I personally wouldn't mind for the C to run to Euclid full time. Increased service is the ideal.
As for the A shuttle on the midnight, don't be surprised if this is the next spot for OPTO.
I have a map in front of me.There are 3 stops after Rockaway Blvd.Ok between midnite & 5:30 instead of bus service Shuttle train service can leave from Euclid Ave.Two trains every 30 minutes.The train that leaves Euclid Ave. would leave from the queens bound express track,so that passengers coming from Manhattan can just cross the platform.All I'm saying is that because A train service sucks so much,just send them all to Far Rock.
Late nights, they do, with a shuttle from Euclid Ave to Lefferts Blvd.
-Hank
Didn't the E train used to terminate at Euclid years ago?
During the 1960's and the first half of the 1970's (I don't know exactly remember the very last service date), before the CC came, some of the Rush Hour only E-Trains terminated at Euclid, although most went to Rockaway Park. A rare E-Train one could be seen at Lefferts Blvd.
They were mostly composed of R1-9's back then.
The CC started to run to Brooklyn in 1976, I believe. E trains ran out to Euclid Ave. back in the 50s, too. Initially, the E ran local in Brooklyn during rush hours while the A ran express. In the mid-60s, they flip-flopped; the E ran express along Fulton St. and the A remained a local. In 1973, they flip-flopped once again.
The E express to Euclid ran duirng the same period the F ran express in Brooklyn, during rush hours from the Chystie St. opening until the budget crisis forced cuts in 1976. They also ran some R-38s on the line during that time (I remember that because I had one of the 10 air conditioned R-38 cars 4140-4149 on that trip)
Some also went there during the more recent Williamsburg Br. crash. I don't know why they dontt send some there when the bridge is closed completely later this year.
Josh:
I find your comments on the G train offensive. Do you even know where Greenpoint is? It turns out that many of us in the neighborhood feel that the MTA has totally screwed Greenspoint/Williamsburgh residents (as well as others) by cutting the train off at Court Square. I agree. The 63rd line will be a boondogle. I'll make a bet with you. When the 63rd line opens its Queens connect thru service, I bet the G will have more customers. Greenpoint/LIC/Williamsburgh is a vibrant growing community and we deserve reliable, safe and clean mass transit service. Have you also noticed that the G also services Pratt? What about the lower-income people along the line - Flushing Ave. for example. The trains get crowded and there are more people on the G at night than on the F. Trust me on this. I've lived in Greenpoint for 20 years and taken the trains that long. G service needs to be enhanced, not cut. We need connectivity with the 7 in LIC, an extra stop in Greenpoint, connectivity with the J/M/Z, etc. I guess if it was up to fools like you, only the rich would have subway service. Get a clue!
[I'll make a bet with you. When the 63rd line opens its Queens connect thru service, I bet the G will have more customers.]
I'll make that bet.
You misunderstand me however. I want to increase service on the G by doing as you say increase "connectivity" by having the Franklin Ave. shuttle expanding to the G. Otherwise, the G will continue to be useless even to the vibrant community of Greenpoint.
If everyone on the G is going to have to transfer twice, because it is isolated from the rest of the system, and they are going to go to OPTO, how about increasing frequency? Why not run a two R46 car train every five minutes OPTO instead of four car train every 10 minutes OPTO? That's the same number of RTO personnel as today, although train operators earn more than conductors. One could argue that this would be a service increase, rather than a service cut and cost savings. At least you wouldn't have to wait 10 mintues, get on a G, then wait again to get to Manhattan, as you do today. If G ridership increased, you could go to one two-car train every four minutes, three minutes, etc.
This could be extended down the line. If the G ran every five minutes to Church, rather than every 10, and Bergen lower level was reopened, maybe you could run the F express from Church without hurting Park Slope/Windsor Terrace/Carrol Gardens/Cobble Hill too bad. The five minute wait at Prospect Park would be the same, although all those on the local Culver stops, like those on the G, would have to transfer to get to Manhattan.
People should demand something. It seems like Brooklyn is the cash cow of the Empire State, but its political leaders do not care about transit.
I agree with the transfer to the J,M,Z lines at Broadway. This will surely increase ridership on the G
I'd like to ask something about the G line that I don't quite understand. In the past, two regulars here, (Sammie and someone else) got all bent out of shape over the discussion of the G line and finally left us. I'm starting to see the same annimosity beginning all over again. Why are 'G' line supporters so intollerant? Is it in the water? In the schools? Since I hava a close professional link to the line, I'd like to know before the bug bites me!!!!
It is because that this is the only subway line through the neighborhood, and it is so silly that you are just across the river and must take two trains or more to get there, and on top of that cutting the service on frequency and on destinations. Something should be done because from what I see, it is Queens that keeps getting the new lines into Manhattan and no one else. My question is why Queens. You already have two expresses and one local. Yes I know that the expresses E and F are crowded but other lines can be better utilized or transfer stations available which could ease this crowd. That is what i have to say.
One thought though----Why not have Bedford/Nostrand be a tranfer to an express that bypasses Classon and head into Lower Manhattan. Just a thought which is probably off the wall, but thought I say it anyway.
As I reported earlier, during my tour of the G line on January 28, the station that seemed to have the most people getting on and getting off was Greenpoint Avenue. We spent about twenty minutes there, watching various trains taking pictures. It seems to be a very popular destination. Not to mention, an excellent and very safe neighborhood.
An aside to Larry Littlefield: I don't think they have enough "even-only" cars (26 of them) to do full-time OPTO. They'd be better off keeping the four-car or even six-car configuration they currently have.
Wayne
Who will be the first to swipe their unlimited metro card at each and every station without leaving the system? This metrocard swipe being an accountable form of verification. My standard for the true subway riding record. Remember, you'll need a pal to hold the doors for you.
[Who will be the first to swipe their unlimited metro card at each and every station without leaving the system]
That would take forever since it wouldn't count unless it was a legitimate swipe and that only happens if there's 18 minutes between swipes.
[This metrocard swipe being an accountable form of verification]
Not really, because there'd be no way to tell if the person left the system or not.
These questions aside, who will be the first to hold a metrocard that has been swiped at each and every station? Day Pass would be impossible. Weekly pass? Monthly pass?
Let us say you can leave the system. The only rule is that it must be swiped at every station while valid. Who could do it in the shortest time? The record will be recorded onto the card for posterity.
Yeah but who could prove it? You'd have to get the records from the MTA and the card doesn't hold that many prior transactions (just 2 I would guess).
-Dave
Back in 1972-73 I compiled a similar set of statistics while living in Barcelona, Spain. At that time the Barcelona Metro offered a "billete de cinco viajes" (ticket for five trips), for 15 pesetas when I first arrived, 20 when the fare went up. It would be stamped at the ticket window when purchased with an identifying stamp that showed the date, line, and station (I don't remember the exact code used) and would be stamped each time presented until used up. I had a complete collection (for when I lived there) of station stamps, including one from the public opening of line IV (I managed to get the front window on the first train!) and one from what I believe was then the only closed station (the old Correos station, abandoned as part of the contruction of what was then an unopened extension of line IV - a friendly conductor let me ride down there after the train was emptied, opened the old booth, found the stamp and pad, and marked my ticket on the back of the receipt portion, with the correct date). I'm not sure if my collection still exists - hopefully, it's still at my parents' house, packed among the boxes I haven't claimed in over 20 years.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Very Cool!
Recent threads about subway graffiti have gotten me wondering about the years that it "decorated" the subway. It's well known that the last graffiti-covered car went out of service in 1989. What I'm not certain about is the beginning. I had thought that widespread graffiti arose in the middle 1970s, more or less coinciding with the city's fiscal crisis. But then I remembered a field trip to the Museum of Natural History in my sophomore year of high school, which would have been in the 1972-73 school year. As our bus from Connecticut plodded through traffic on the Cross Bronx Expressway, a subway train (probably the 2) passed overhead, completely covered with graffiti from end to end ... as one might imagine, this was a source of considerable amusement :-) At any rate, this would place the beginning of the graffiti epidemic at least two to three years earlier than what I had thought was its beginning. Does anyone know?
I think you are right, graffiti was everywhere in the subway by 1972.
The FIRST stirrings of what would become the subway graffiti phenomenon took place in (I think) the spring of 1967, when a group of kids traveled around the system writing a list of six or eight names on as many cars as they could; the one name from that list that stands out in my mind, I guess because it is unusual, is "Corky".
By the fall of 1968, it was common practice for many people to write their "tags", usually cnsisting of a first name and a number representing a street, on cars and stations around the city. "Taki 183" was the most well-known of the graffiti writers in this phase.
Starting I guess in 1969 or 1970, these tags metamorphosed from simple writing in black magic marker to colorfully embellished writing, then painting, of names and logos, until by 1972 full-scale "artworks" were being created regularly.
The graffiti problem was there from the very beginning, but it didn't reach epidemic proportions until 1972. I was a regular weekend commuter between 1967 and 1971, and never noticed anything out of the ordinary. Even in the summer of 1971, the cars were still pretty clean. The first time I really noticed it was on July 7, 1973, when my father and I took the 7 out to Shea Stadium to see the Mets (Willie Mays got into the game about midway through it, BTW). The R-36s had numerous scribblings and all sorts of artwork. Not a pretty sight. There is a photo in the 1973 annual supplement to the Encyclopedia Americana in the New York City section of an R-17 interior with a caption which read, "The scribbling of graffiti on subway cars and station walls reached epidemic proportions in New York City in 1972."
Does anyone have a copy of the signal control lines (General Signal Arrangement) drawings for the Third Avenue EL in the Bronx, Culver Shuttle and Myrtle Avenue EL from Bridge-Jay Streets to Broadway-Myrtle? Also would like the signal control lines for the Third Avenue EL in Manhattan before the 1955 closing from Chatham Square to 149th Street.
You can contact me on my E-Mail if you do. Thanks
When, if ever, was the last regularly scheduled revenue service on the West End Express track? Did the pre-Christie Street T use this track at all?
Gary: To the best of my knowledge the express tracks of the West End Line never saw regular revenue service. Even when both the T and TT were running they made all local stops. The BMT did run express service on the Culver Line in the direction of LIGHT traffic during rush hours up until about the 1950's I believe.
Regards,Larry,RedbirdR33
Dave, I haven't received the bitmap for the logo. Did you not receive my offline email (sent to your panix address)?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Sorry about that.
The largest, cleanest version of the logo is at
http://www.nycsubway.org/gif/sit200.gif
-Dave
Dave, thanks, I'll take it over to the supplier I've used at lunchtime tomorrow and get a guesstimate and then contact you offline. If you want to email me your phone number (I may have it - are you an East Penn Traction member?) I'll call you tomorrow evening.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Dave -
My supplier has the BMP and will give us an estimate by Monday - maybe tomorrow if he has time to review it with his partner tonight.
If you want to see a sample of the quality this place produces, go to the Greenberg show at Raritan Center this weekend - he did the shirts and hats for Jersey Central Ntrak (I'll be there with them, probably just on Saturday).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes I plan to go to the Greenberg show. I need to get a few new locos (even though my model rr is on the d.l. right now.) Figure might as well collect the locos before they become impossible to find.
C. U. Thayer!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Is that the same Greenberg who publishes all those price guides for various model trains? I have all of their hardbound American Flyer S gauge price guides.
One and the same!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Perhaps another recitation of the sources of the tokens used for the logo is in order....maybe a page about it?
-Hank
I don't mean to be a mean guy to you nice people. Really. But if you just got outside once in a while and rode the bus and subway system each day you might get to know what I am trying to say all this time. Here is the perfect example that no one on this site can argue. I rode a Q44 bus to the 7 train this morning and took the train to work. In a very non-offensive way I tried to talk to a lady on the train and also on the bus. The lady on the bus was just a jerk and ignored me and i tried to talk nice to her by saying good morning. Well on the train a similar thing happened to me. I said good morning to a lady sitting next to me can't believe I got a seat on the worst train in New York Crappy. Anyway she ignored me and this time I said it again more louder. She did look at me and said good morning but as soon as I tried to talk to her in a nice way she moved from her seat and stood by the front of the car. She lost her seat which was dumb on HER part not mine. A man took her seat instead. But I prefer talking to females so I did not talk with this big guy. Anyway, my point is that you could even be nice to someone by saying good morning and they could answer but that is it. Once you try to talk anything more you get a cold shoulder. This is why I think YOUR city is not friendly particularly on the bus and subway lines. But I don't say that here to you guys. Most of you here are probably very nice but very misled because you don't yourself ride a bus or a train. If you do then you can't deny what i keep saying to you guys here. Please havea nice morning and try the bus or subway on your way home like some of us HAVE to!!!! Then write a message tomorrow about your experience. Gotcha!
Hey, guy, why don't you drop the "subway hater" handle. It'll go a long way to improving your personna. Next, people are leary of people who come up to them and engage them in conversation. In a city of almost 9,000,000 people, people know that there are a few nuts running loose. They are naturally suspicious. Finally, people use the subways and busses to get to or from someplace. Very few use it as a way to meet people. I ride the subway EVERY day and if you came up to me and struck up a conversation, I'd be skeptical too. If you want to meet people, try a place where people normally meet. Try to join a club or go to a museum. Where did you ever get the idea that people wanna meet people on the subway, anyway?
Well Subway Hater has had his two pennies worth of air time, so let me spring to the defense of NYCTA and the No. 7 line.
I live in London and have travelled on the No 7 line between Times Square and Shea Stadium in Queens many times and i have found the staff (token booth/conductor/motor(wo)men/others very helpfull and the
"clientele" just as friendly on the train.
Everyone on the train has their own agenda, communting to/from work,visiting friends,shopping etc etc and just like here in London,
City Gent sits alongside people looking for work, the subway offers great transit for all people regardless of status.
Those people who work on the No 7 line and those that ride it are from all walks of life, thats what mass transit is all about ..... doesn't sound like the same No 7 train
subway hater has been on........does it !!
Regards
Rob London UK :^)
In London, people tend to keep themselves to themselves on the Underground, but when something goes wrong and the train gets stuck, then the conversations tend to start up. On commuter trains, if there is a really bad hold-up, then I have known people to lend each other mobile phones to contact nearest and dearest (can't happen underground unfortunately). Is this generally the same for NYC too?
I understand that LT are soon to install so called leaky cable technology so the mobile phones can be used at underground stations.
I have mixed feelings about this. I guess that a passenger talking loudly into his or her phone and drowning out the train announcements on the Circle/Hammersmith and City Lines has to be a good thing. There is something about that disembodied voice that really irritates me. The other trains with announcements do not do so for some reason.
Interesting point Max, the C69/C77 stock is the only "surface" height stock fitted with pre-recorded announcements so I wonder if this has anything to do with it?? Also with approx 1 minutes or less between stations the frequency of these announcements are great, compared with the Jubilee or Central Lines......
At the end of the day the information they offer (destination, next stop etc) is usefull to the passenger be they first time rider or commuters such as myself.......
I seem to remember the voice is called CELIA or Circle Electronic
Line Information Announcement or something similar !!!!!
This is very different from NYC with the " This is a Brooklyn Bound A train ,next station is West 4Th street change here for the B,D,F & Q Lines, stand clear of the closing doors" type of announcement!!!
Regards
Rob :^)
"Thinking of moving to Gloucester Road station - I spend ages waiting for outer rail circle line trains here!!!!"
I agree Max, to hear that your train is going to Ealing Broadway does get a little boring after the first dozen or so times.
From my experience on both the subway and commuter rail in Chicago, I agree. When there are delays or problems with the trains (either waiting for the train or while on the train), and when people are looking for directions, people will willingly start conversing with strangers, and nobody will think it strange. Any other situation, and most people will either ignore you, try to cut the conversation short, or just plain go elsewhere.
People want their space, and often are trying to use their only morning free time to read, do work, think, or nap. Thus, I don't think it has to do with lack of friendliness, or necessarily with fear of crime, as others have said. If you go up to a person who looks like they are lost and ask them if they need directions, most of the time they seem happy, not afraid. And other passengers often join in on the direction-giving!
Are you an ATTORNEY with the Esq. after your name If so, I'm sure you can get plenty of work in the transit business.
Well, I'm not carrying around a knight's spare armor and lance (a squire), so yes, the "Esquire" means that I'm an attorney. But I don't practice personal injury cases anymore, and when I did, I wasn't a partner so I didn't get to pick the cases.
As a matter of fact, I did once have a case on my desk where our client was suing the CTA. But I thought he had a legitimate case -- IIRC, a train doing a battery run through the station where the client was waiting for a train caused a gate, which should have been locked but wasn't, to slam hard on his leg (or was it his arm? It's been so long that I don't recall which). Of course, the liability was not from the train doing a battery run, but from the unlocked gate.
It's easy for SOME railfans to be sarcastic or belligerent when they read about somebody suing the Transit Authority, but like all organizations made up of human beings, sometimes it really DOES do something wrong and sometimes a person injured by the Transit Authority really DOES deserve to be compensated.
Where DOES the term "Esquire" come from, and what do female attorneys use? (My younger daughter is busy studying for the LSAT.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm not certain, but I'm pretty sure that it's connected to the ancient and obsolete position of "squire," who was an assistant to a knight. Later, when the whole business of knights actually fighting wars ended, the squires, who could use the honorific "esquire" with their name, became a class of country gentlemen (as the knights themselves did).
I don't know how the leap was made to the present use, where theoretically anyone who owns land is a "gentleman" and can call themselves "esquire" (example: "Bugs Bunny, Esq." on the mailbox in the old cartoons probably did not mean that Bugs was a lawyer) but actually only attorneys use the title. As to women using "Esquire," I have seen women who put the abbreviation after their name, so I suppose the term is unisex now.
Good luck to your daughter on the LSAT!
Thanks for the explanation. I'll tell her she can't use it until she becomes landed gentry!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
People seem to be more likely to have conversations when undergoing some shared misery. e.g., long lines at the bank, late train (whether commuter or subway), just missed an elevator, etc. This gives an excuse for people to complain about whatever's going wrong, and once the usual code of silence among strangers is broken people can get talkative.
This is also true when someone asks directions. I don't know how many times I've been in the subway or on the bus when someone wandered on looking lost, asking out loud to no one in particular "Is this (bus/train) going to (wherever)?" Usually not just one, but multiple people within hearing range reply with their opinions on how to best get where they're going.
On the whole, mass transit (especially at rush hour) does not seem to me to be a very good way to strike up conversations. Passengers on Amtrak are much more willing to have conversations with nearby passengers, but I don't suppose you'd want to take the train to New Haven just to chat?
Of the many visits(maybe 30) that I've made to NYC, whenever I tried to speak to someone(twice, actually) I got a conversation(from a 17-20 year old on the 2 after 180 St and an elderly woman in Queens).
Though it's sad to say, trying to talk to people you don't know these days is a good way to get attacked or worse. Why do you think they are trying to change the seating arrangements on the new R-143 cars for the 'L'(I assume you're not a railfan)? So that people don't have to face each other!
Sorry, but if you came to NYC looking for good conversation, common courtesy and just generally warm people, you've come to the wrong place.
If you haven't checked - I responded to your post on this topic on the BusTalk page.
Good luck...
Wayne
You might get a nicer response using a different approach. As noted elsewhere on this thread, people in New York and no doubt most other cities tend to be suspicious of strangers who attempt to strike up conversations - whether on a subway or anywhere else. That's particularly true if it's a man that's trying to strike up a conversation with a woman.
Yet if it's something more specific than a general conversation, reactions are likely to be different. To see what I mean, next time you're on a train, ask another passenger a directions-type question: for example, on the 7 train, ask someone if you connect to the N train at Fifth Avenue or Times Square. You'll no doubt get a much better reception than if you simply say "Good morning" to a fellow rider.
Subway passengers are understandably leery about having agressive strangers attempt to strike up conversations with them. Female passengers in particular. Your bizarre and inappropriate actions (repeating 'good morning' in a louder voice) only reinforce the normal passenger's reluctance to continue a conversation with a stranger. The anger in your post leads me to believe that you felt rejected by this woman, who was just attempting to get to her job. You are why people avoid mass transit. I bet you stare at female passengers also. Have you ever followed a woman off of the train or bus attempting to 'try to talk nice to her'? Quit while you're ahead. Buy a newspaper and read it on the way into work like every normal person does.
This person, who seems to advertise himself as "a nice guy", seems to have a penchant for irritating others around him. His motives seem suspect. He has stated that he used to work for DART in Dallas. Yet if he was the "nice guy" claims to be he would have joined McKinney Avenue as a volunteer. Running a streetcar seems to be one of the very best ways to meet people, yet he doesn't seem to have ever done this.
Secondly, he has failed to "meet nice people" by either never posting an e-mail address, or worse - posting a totally phony address (none@none.com).
He could either loosen up, or go away and leave all of us alone.
To everybody else: The best way to get this guy to go away is to not reply to anything he posts. That's why he's here - to get a rise out of all of us for the outlandish stuff he posts here and on BusTalk.
This will be the LAST time I reply to his stuff - I'm starting now, anybody else?
I don't normally attempt to strike up conversation with my fellow riders while in the subway; I don't feel it is appropriate behaviour in this age and climate of suspicion. However, I occasionally do find myself chatting with my fellow rider - and when I do, I make every effort to be polite and courteous. To wit, I was standing on the stairs at Utica Avenue IND waiting for an R38 to show up so I could photograph its roofline. Standing a few steps down was another man, who may have been waiting for someone to get off the "A" train. Eventually, an R38 came along and I took three pictures of its roof. The man on the stairs gave me a quizzical look and said "Wha[t] [are] YOU up to?". I told him I was taking a picture so I could make a model of the train, which was a little white lie (Joel Lovitch will be making the models), and he broke into a smile and mentioned his nephew's train set and we had a pleasant little conversation. Sometimes things like these just happen, and it is nice when it does, but I don't go out of my way to initiate these conversations.
Wayne
One time I was taking pictures of a station, and it was proving difficult to get a picture of the opposite platform without any passengers in the frame. A woman standing on the opposite platform saw me taking pictures and started yelling obscenities and calling me a "sicko"! Apparently she thought my intent was to take pictures of her. I calmy tried to explain tat I was taking pictures of the station, but she wouldn't listen and proceeded to turn to other people on her platform and tell them how perverted I must be.
I wanted to tell her not to flatter herself, that she wasn't worth looking at, much less taking a picture of, but I restrained myself and turned away, continuing to take pictures.
The interactions between people on the subway, when they do interact, are quite fascinating. Which brings up a question - have there been any books on the topic? I think a great book idea would be short stories of people interacting in the subway. Has anyone read anything like that?
In 1973 I was taking pictures on the Third Avenue EL at Fordham Road and took a photograph of the middle track that didn't exist with several passengers waiting for a train on the middle track. Maybe they were asleep.
I never had a chance to take the 3rd Ave. el, but if there were no signs directing passengers to the correct track, I'm not surprised. I'm sure people have waited for trains to pull in on the middle track at Bedford-Nostrand, even though it's marked otherwise.
Getting back to the original subject, people have approached me down through the years wanting to know which train to take to their destination. If I know the answer, I won't hesitate to tell them. Nowadays I may have to think for a moment, but I can usually come up with which train to take.
Another way to strike up a conversation, if you're into that sort of thing, is to appear to be seeking information. Going up to the map inside the car and pretending to study it intently is one trick. This happened to me in July of 1995: I was on my way to my sister's place on an R train, and at Times Square I saw the Manhattan Bridge rerouting signs above the express track, when the Q ran express along Broadway during middays and weekends. A young lady noticed that I was staring at that sign and asked if I needed any help. I assured her that I knew where I was getting off and thanked her just the same. Of course, if a Q had happened to be there at that moment, I would have jumped aboard in a heartbeat! That was the day when the temperature hit 102 in Central Park. Talk about a blast furnace!
There's a man after my own heart - he'd go miles and stations out of his way just to ride on a Slant R40.
Wayne
Well, you're right about that. However, back in 1995, the Q was being served by R-68s. I would have jumped on board for the express ride, even if I had a hard time seeing through the cab windows. I did ride a few Qs the next day, BTW, after picking up a set of token cufflinks at the Transit Museum.
And speaking of the slant R-40s, I was waiting for a Q at Atlantic Ave. last fall when one pulled in. I got on and discovered that the motorman was apparently training, with his experienced partner standing outside the cab with the cab door open. At Prospect Park, I got off and waited for another Q. At Brighton Beach, a similar situation occurred; I think it may have been a rowdy group of kids. I got off at Sheepshead Bay; the next Q was the same one with the motorman-in-training as before. I let it go by and finally caught the Q after that.
As I said, that view out the window is not to be missed.
Hey my son does the samething hes 17 YRS old and rides the trains alot. He even rides my train all the time. Alot of the other crews think hes half nut spending free time on the Subways. He actaully spend 30 Mins at Boro Hall waiting for a Uptown No.2 with a free window. My son probably knows the job more then my because hes been with me on the job for 10 Yrs. Talking to the Conductors,other Train Operators and Dispatchors and TSS and other workers
My son also reads the post but doesn't realy post anything. Hes alittle shy speacking in plublic
I will also wait for an A train of R-38s if I have enough time. There have been instances in which as many as three of four trains of R-44s will go by before I get a train of R-38s. It's worth the wait, even if the R-38s aren't quite the same as the R-10s.
I've been known to ride in the rear car and look at where I've been!
Wayne
I did that once on the Canarsie on a train of BMT standards. Looking out the storm door window, it felt as if we were going backwards. I've been on the last car of a train on other occasions, but usually didn't look out the window. The only other time I can recall doing so was on an uptown CC of R-1/9s. I rode in the last car of a southbound A train of R-10s once from 59th St., and the train started to gather speed for the runaway slope before the last car reached 50th St. Everything is reversed in that regard.
Something similar happened to me at Franklin IRT on Feb 28 1998. I was about to take a picture of R62A #1914 (it was still on the #3 then) and this [lady] stepped in front of me just as I took the picture. She looked at me as if I had looked up her skirt! Then she stomped off. Few minutes later who should appear? Two of NY's Finest! I had to explain to them what I was doing; one of them wanted to cite me and take my camera, but the other was more restrained. I offered to apologize to the offended person, but the policemen advised against it. Things like that peeve me, but don't stop me from my pursuit. It just made me more careful and now I go out of my way to avoid getting people in my photos. That's why most of my station pictures in the line-by-line show empty stations. Aboard the R110B back on February 11, I politely asked two people to step aside so I could photograph, and they both complied with a smile.
Wayne
In response to SubwayHater (and to Jack): I grew up in New York and I also grew up using public transportation. I have also used transit in a number of other cities in North America. In a large city, people are presumed to have a right to privacy while they are in a public space. That means that people do not generally strike up conversations or make comments to strangers unless there is some reason to do so - for example, to ask directions. This does not mean that people are unfriendly or have bad manners, and it has little to do with a fear of crime. Of course, there are often exceptions that prove the rule. For example, last year I was on the Newark City Subway, and there was a woman and her companion across the way who had never been on the line before. The woman was looking around and wondering out loud about the origin of the car. In this case it was acceptable for me to respond, and we did have a conversation about the history of the line and its possible future.
The easiest way to strike up a conversation on public transit is to either think out loud about the service, or to think out loud about someone who just got off the bus/train...
-Hank
Could any one tell me who listens to SEPTA radio frequencies especially the Market-Frankford line what the difference is between say Bridge St. controler and the train dispatcher? I hear this constantly. Also where is the train dispatcher located? Another unusual question is why the trains that have M-4s always call Bridge ST. controler and tell them that they are at a certain station with an M-4? What might the reason for this be?
I notice on all of the IRT lines there is a route map inside of the cars. All except for one, #3. Now there is talk about the #3 and #7 trains swapping cars , is this true? Could that be the reason why there is no route map inside the #3 cars?
All I can say that the No.7 Line will get the R 62a's but who knows where there coming from. When I worked the No.6 out of Pelham the Road Car Inspector told be the No.6 Line was going to swip cars witch made sense because Pelham has lots of R 36'S. Now when I swiched to work the No.1 Line the crews said there cars were going to the No.7 Line.
I guess were going to have to wait and see who gives up the R 62'S?
I was at Nevins a couple of months ago and I saw between No.4 cars the purple 7 sign. How would the car configuration work? As you and I know the 7 is 11 cars and the 6 is 10 cars long.....
They would just tack on an extra car. Train lengths are not set in stone, and on some lines, they vary by time of day, or day of the week. What IS set in stone is the UNIT length, ie, if the cars are linked into 5-car units, then a train it is used on can be no shorter than 5 cars.
-Hank
The #7 is getting R62A's? Where will its R33/36 cars go? The 2 and 5 are getting the R142s, right (I hope - I don't want to see the 142s go to the 1, 3, and 4 lines like the R62/62A's did)
The R 33/36 more then likely will go to the No.6 Line or scraped. Because the No.1 is so much of a show case line I can't see them running Redbirds and the No.3 needs 9 cars the Redbirds are married pairs.
Actually, if the 3 uses the R33/36 from the 7, it will make good use of the single R33 cars.
You have a point there
They are debating running 10 cars on the #3 line, with the idea of linking up the New Lots cars. With new cars coming in, they will have extra equipment so they can make 5 car units out of New Lots Yard.
Another item I heard was that New Lots Yard will be in charge of the Grand Central Shuttle instaed of Westchester Yard. I was told that they could be closing one of the three tracks at the shuttle, extend a couple of platforms and run 2 5-car units. Food for thought
I heard that the switch at Lenox Terminal requires a nine car train....
Ok if they do run 10 Cars on the No.3 Line They will have to do one or 2 things.
Layup most trains at Liviona and only lay up some trains at Lenox Yard witch would have to be closest to the 148 St station because I believe the back of the Yard can only take 9 Cars.
or
They will have to have a extend the Yard to acomitade(Sorry about the spelling) the Extra Car.
Or lay some up at 137 St if there going to run trains out of there this coming pick. But have to Wait for Pick book to confirm this.
If the 7 does get the 6's R-62As, it won't have enough to provide all the service on the 7, because right now the 6 has a large number of Redbirds since there aren't enough 62As. I thought the 7 was going to get R-142s along with the 2 and the 5. Are these 62As going to be on the 7 temporarily until all 142s are ordered?(which I hope since the 2, 5, and 7 lines have the oldest trains in the system and should be first in line to get the new trains)Or is the 7 not getting the 142s at all (which would suck!)?
There deffinatly getting R 62 but from where the No.1,3,6 Lines the No. will keep there R 62 for sure.
I wish i know how to do those images?
No.4 will keep there R 62's
Those R33WF cars are more than likely going to be the first Redbirds to go, as the cars get shifted. They're not air conditioned, they seem to be rotting more than the rest of the cars, and they're unique, which as we all know is a death knell.
-Hank
Well Hank, that being the case, I hope some Museums can find good homes for a few R33WF cars. Are there any takers? Hey Jeff H., what about it?
-Constantine
I was on the F this afternoon and was somewhat alarmed to hear at 18Av the conductor announce "This train is running express to Kings Hwy." (not that it mattered since I was railfanning...) but anyway, what was strange is we stayed on the local track and just went through several stations blowing the horn at confused passengers on the platform. What was even stranger was the conductor also noted that for service to skipped stations passengers should "get off here and wait for the next train." Why would the trains run like this? Anyone have any ideas/insight?
Mike
When a train is late they often run "express on the Local" meaning that they will make express stops but stay on the local track. Sometimes they may (I work in a station service booth[new name for token booth]and listen to the scanner monitoring trains) be told "your next stop will be ...(insert name of station). The annoucenemtn "wait for next train" is to advise customers of their options.
The train was probably givin a skip because the train was ether late or to make up a gap in service or a train close behind. I love every time the tower gives my a skip. One satuaday I was skiped 3 times from 34 st to Chambers on the No.1 Line.
>The train was probably givin a skip because the train was ether late or to make up a gap in service or a train close
>behind. I love every time the tower gives my a skip. One satuaday I was skiped 3 times from 34 st to Chambers on the
>No.1 Line.
I'm wondering if it had anything to do with the work being done between Ave. X and CI (There was no train service [shuttle bus replaced] between there this afternoon between like 11AM and 3 or something)
Mike
As has been discussed previously on SubTalk, this is often called a "battery run," though there is much speculation on the derivation of this term. It happends more frequently than you would expect; it's a rather common occurrance here in Boston too. The most common reason is to make up for a gap in service (too long between trains ahead of you, and bunching behind you).
It happens in Washington, too, once in awhile, especially on the Red Line.
I'll bet you do! I know I would if I were a motorman. On that particular Saturday, was your train switched over to the express track, or did you stay on the local track? I gather that normally you wouldn't be switched over unless there was a train down ahead.
No I stayed on the Local TK. But I was racing the No.3 besides me. That was fun I won because the No.3 has to slow up for Timers The Local don't. Before the trains were modiflyed I raced a No.2 R 26 and he won dispate the Timer.
Which stretch are you referring to regarding the timers? Is it south of 14th St? That straightaway down 7th Ave. between 34th and 14th is an express addict's delight. It's just too bad that that stretch isn't about 5 miles long instead of just one mile. Imagine - 5 miles of ruler-straight track, with an express of your choice rocketing along.
Timers are South of Canal St on the Downtown Exp witch is Tk 2 there is no timer at 14 St on the westside IRT.
Thanks for the info. Is there a timer on the southbound express track between 50th St. and Times Square? If there is, it would explain why 2 and 3 trains hit the brakes as they approach 50th St. at full speed and crawl the rest of the way to Times Square while locals merrily zoom along.
Yes there is a Timer South of 50 St as you hit there curve around Times Sqaure. I Forgot there is a Timer at 14 St on the Westside on the Uptown Express South of 14 ST. Now this Timer is Weid on the Uptown Express South of 96 St. That is Tower controled because when there was that GO were No.1 went Express From TQ to 96 St. On my first trip I had Timers on my and the 2 trip no timers.
If you want to Know where any other Timer on the IRT is just let me know and I'll be glad to Respond.
Just so you know....those timers are tower controlled. When the line up is established for the mainline #2, timers are not neccesary. When the ball is against you, the machine takes into account that you might be diverged.
If you want a sizable section of straight track for a quick run, try the flats between the North Channel Bridge and the Broad Channel Station. Unfortunatly since the trains have been slowed down, the most you'll do is 45 mph instead of 55 mph.
Another nice quick run is southbound on 3 track, leaving Roosevelt Av on the E/F, you go down a hill where these express tracks duck under the local tracks to run underneath Northern Boulevard, what a rush!
And another spot is on the FLushing Line leaving WIllets Point on M track. You go up the hill and then down the hill and around the bend to the right past 103rd Street roaring into Junction Boulevard. That's a nice rush for a motorman.
I've been on all three of those runs. The most memorable one was the first time I went out to the Rockaways on an A train of R-10s in July 1969. Our train must have been doing 60 easily; it was flying.
The New York Subway has several songs written about it like The Subway Glide, City Hall to Harlem in 15 Minutes, Take the 'A' Train by Duke Ellington and of The Subway Song from the Soupy Sales Show to the tune of The Saints Go Marching In. Here a few of the words:
All the people we meet 50 feet below the street and
the subways keep rolling along
From the Bronx to Times Square twice a day we pay our fare and
the subways keep rolling along
O' it's such a mess on the Lexington Express to mingle
among the franglen throg
You get more than a ride it's a circus on the side and the subway keep rolling along.
Can anyone else think of more songs or want all the words to The Subway Song.
I have a record from when I was younger which contains a song called Shloime the Subway Train. It's about a Bronx train which doesn't like Brooklyn at all and then takes a ride to Brooklyn and gets to like it very much.
Has anyone else heard of this song? The record was recorded in 1957, but the song is probably from earlier (when was the last time there was a Bronx-only train?). At the end of the song the train becomes the Brooklyn to Bronx express, would that be the D train?
Eventually I'll record the song onto the web and I'll post the link.
The last Bronx only train was the Third Ave. El IRT #8 which was replaced by the BX55. I think probably in the 70's. I'm sure someone knows the exact date.
The last full day of service for the late great 3 Avenue El was Saturday, April 28, 1973 although the very last train left 149 St at 1206am on Sunday morning. As for a Bronx only subway route we still have the #5 Dyre Av Shuttle which runs on the old #9 route.
Regards,Larry,RedbirdR33
That is clearly NOT to the tune of "The Sains Go Marching In" but rather of "The Caissons Go [or The Army Goes] Rolling Along". I spent several moments unsuccessfully trying to fit it to "The Saints Go Marching In" before it dawned on me.
P.S. "Caissons" are pressurized chambers used in building tunnels, such as the subway tunnels under the East River. Why they are/were the centerpiece of that Army song has never been too clear to me. Was the song originally for the Corps of Engineers? Anyone know its history, or that of the word "caisson" itself?
Dan Schwartz, according to the Webster's II New College Dictionary, a caisson in the military sense is a large two-wheeled horse drawn vehicle used at one time to transport ammunition.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Thank you for the right tune.
Any of you who are familiar with the rock group Blue Oyster Cult,
there is a song on their 1976 album, "Agents Of Fortune", called
"Morning Final", which mentions about a chase and murder in a subway,
then the song ends with the sound of a subway train pulling into a
station. Would that be a New York subway??? Cool song, anyway.
Don't know, Tim, but I always wondered if Linda Ronstadt was "waitin' for the double E" in her song "Poor Pitiful Me". The next line was "but the train don't run down here no more" or something like that, so I guess she was referring to the period when the N took over for the EE way back in the 70's. ????
BobW -
Great Posting. I was working in a record store when that Linda Ronstadt song came out. It was up in Boston so I had to explain to everyone about what double E reference meant. When I heard it come blasting over the store speakers I thought that line was pretty cool - yeah, like I bet Linda Ronstadt was up on all the lettered routes (hah! hah!) and she took time out from some Manhatten photo shoot to make sure she rode the EE when R-9's still operated on it way back around 1970 or so. I do wonder where she got that line from - did she think of "Take the 'A' Train", and then thought of something to rhyme with the word "me"? Was some ex-New Yorker walking through a southern California motel room or recording studio when she was writing the song and they shouted out "Oh yeah Linda, how about 'double E', that would work"?
I'm not sure the reference was exactly to the EE line but it always made me think so....
The song "Poor Poor Pitiful Me" was written by Warren Zevon.
I always thought it was a reference to the former IND/BMT EE line myself...
Wayne
An even more graphic reference to the NYC Subway was also made by the same member of Blue Öyster Cult - bassist Joe Bouchard, on the album "Tyranny and Mutation" in the song "Hot Rails To Hell (1277: Express to Heaven). Three times I have ridden in that Pullman-Standard R6-1. It is just as described by Mr. Bouchard.
I have the lyrics as well as the album (LP and CD); but am not sure if posting them here would place me in violation of the copyright, even if it is footnoted with the appropriate copyright information . If you would like a copy of them, I can e-mail them to you.
Wayne
That sounds like a pre-GOH R32 to me. The brakes have that typical high-pitched R32 squeal. It's actually the beginning of the next song ("Tenderloin") if you watch the timer while the CD is playing.
Wayne
I Believe the song is the one titled
IT TAKES A LOT TO LAUGH IT TAKES A TRAIN TO CRY which was originally titled PHANTOM ENGINEER the line is
Don't the breakman look good (mama) flagging down the Double E
Don't the sun look good going down over the sea
Anyway It's on Highway 61.
Also, see Blond On Blond for the song VISIONS OF JOHANNA with the line
In the lot where the ladies play blind man's bluff with the key chain
And the all night girls, they whisper escapades out on the
D Train.
Chris C. - Hey, great for mentioning Blond on Blond and "It takes a lot to laugh..." . I was listening to that on the Supersession LP just a couple of nights ago.
I think Dylan may have been living upstate by the time the Double E started running again in what was it? '69 or '70? It did, I think, provide the first local service when the Queens IND opened in the mid thirties - have to dig out my old N.Y.Div. Bulletins for the early IND services articles to check.
Dylan did pound the pavements, club stages, and the IND platforms when he was sleeping on Dave Van Ronk's and other peoples' floors in the very early sixties - he must have spent many an evening traveling to and from West 4th St. station on R-9's and R-10's and witnessing antics of flirting (or perhaps in a darker vein, hooking?) so maybe that inspired the lines "ladies play blind man's buff with a key chain" and "The All night girls...D Train". I always wondered if the latter might have also been a slap at girls who rode the D-Train in from the outer boroughs (Concourse or Culver) for a wild night in the Village....
Someone once suggested to me that Escapades on the D train might have been a Coney Island reference. Don't know and not sure it matters.
What is the Supersession LP?
Chris C. - Do you have an e-mail? I wanted to reply via -mail since this is music/not strictly transit. Re: Supersession LP (now CD). It is on Columbia label; came out in spring 1968 featuring Al Kooper/Mike Bloomfield w/Steve Stills - guitar on side 2. Lots of bluesy jams; good backup horn parts. Cover of "It Takes a Lot to Laugh..." was on side 2 of the LP. I've heard the Gold CD of Supersessionn has an extra cut. There's a real rockin', gutsy, 'take no prisoners' version of "It Takes a Lot to Laugh..." on the Columbia Dylan Bootleg 3-CD box that came out a few years back. Check it out!!
How about the song "Downtown Train" by Rod Stewart?
It talks about "Brooklyn girls", and has a chorus that begins
"When I see you tonight
On a downtown train..."
Sorrry, I don't know all the words.
(Downtown Train) That song was written and performed by someone else first -- I think it was Tom Waits. I don't think Rod knows Brooklyn.
Ive always been curious about how ,pre-1940, the service on the so-called 'joint service' lines was handled. To be specific, how was service handled? Was it always a BMY train followed by an IRT train, or did the IRT run more service seeing as thye had both 2nd ave El and Steinway tunnel service to handle. Also, did the two companies split any revenues from the turnstiles evenly or was it again in proportion in to the service provided? Just Curious......
The IRT ran subway trains between Times Square and Main St on the Flushing Line or Ditmars Blvd on the Astoria Line. The IRT ran el trains btwn Manhattan and Willets Pt or Ditmars Blvd. The BMT could only operate shuttle service btwn Queensboro Plaza and Main St or Ditmars. I'm not 100% certain but I would say that each ran about a third of the service.(ie IRT subway,IRT el and BMT el) The curious thing is that the IRT Gate cars were prohibited from going past Willets Pt but the BMT Gates could go into the tunnel at Main St. It had something to do with the BMT cars having more steel in their construction. I don't know how the revenue was split though.
Regards,Larry,RedbirdR33
I don't think the IRT ran through-service from Times Sq to
Ditmars. BMT El shuttles were run from 111 St to QP, then the same
train would go out to Ditmars, return to QP, back to Corona, etc.
For the World's Fair, Willets Point was made an express stop
and BMT "Q" cars ran to there. BMT 60st subway service terminated
on the third trackway from the South since the wider steel cars
could not go on the el portions. A relay track, which is still
partially present today, allowed the steel cars to come in on
the upper level, go down under the structure and come up on
a fourth trackway along the south side of the Corona tracks
between QP and Rawson, change ends and come back around to
the lower level for departure back to Manhattan. IRT ran
steel subway cars from Times Sq. to Main St (exactly the same
alignment as today), as well as 2 Ave through trains from
Manhattan, over the Queensboro Bridge, to 111 St. These were
wooden el cars.
The initial Dual Contracts provided for separate fare controls
in each of the Astoria or Corona stations, one in the front half,
one in the rear. In effect, each station was two with no free
transfer, although I'm pretty sure there was a free transfer at QP.
The BMT did not exercise its right to operate trains and the
IRT alone provided service on both Astoria and Corona. In 1923,
an agreement was reached between the companies to share revenues
equally. The dual fare controls were removed, and the BMT began
operating el shuttles. This lasted until 1949, when dual service
ended, 2 Ave el service ended, the Astoria line was converted
to BMT dimensions, the trackways were shifted to through-route
the 60St tubes to the Astoria line, and the northern half of
QP station was demolished.
doesn't make any sense and check the old track diagram in the 1920.
>doesn't make any sense and check the old track diagram in the 1920.
What part didn't you understand? The information was taken
primarily from Tracks of NY, Vol 2, which documents in great
detail the Queens(boro) Plaza track layout in the 1920s and 30s.
From South to North, the tracks at QP station (upper and lower
levels) were used by:
IRT subway (through),
IRT 2 Ave/Queenboro Bridge (through),
BMT 60 St subway (turnback),
BMT Corona/Astoria el shuttles (turnback)
The Queensboro Plaza Station was constructed for through service by both the IRT and BRT. At the times the plans were drawn up both companies were operating 9 foot wide cars,by the time the line actually openned for service the BRT had decided to use 10 foot wide cars for its subway lines. This led to a court case in which it was decided that the BRT/BMT did have trackage rights on the Astoria and Flushing Lines but that they must use 9 foot wide cars. Also the track arrangement as built did not allow for reversing Astoria and Flushing trains separately so an "ad hoc" arrangement was made whereby an inbound Astoria train would reverse and become an outbound Flushing train and the same for the inbound Flushings becoming the outbound Astorias. This lasted up until the 1939 World's Fair when the increased service required additional construction thereby separating the two service so they could reverse independently of each other at Queensboro Plaza.
Regards,Larry,RedbirdR33
Can anyone give me more info on "murphy"--entire name and military rank. Peter will include the information in the next track map book edition.
Hello! I am seriously considering doing some limited run cast-resin subway car kits. I would like to know what everyone's favorite car(s) and scale(s) is.
Right now, I am leaning toward the earlier equipment: R-1, R-4,
BMT A/B/BT; and/or some of the earlier wooden cars (Lo-V, gate cars, etc.). Would this be what you want, or would an R-11 or R-33 really make you happy? I know that some of these cars have been done before, but not to the level of detail and exactness I plan. It also wouldn't hurt that they would actually be available without a 30+ week waiting period.
I had been an On2 narrow-gauge manufacturer for a number of years, so I know my way around the business end of it. If you'd like to see a review of a past On2 kit, check out pg. 47 of the July 1994 issue of Model Railroader. They were most generous in saying that: "The quality is excellent, more what you'd expect to see in an injection-molded styrene kit than a typical resin kit". This pretty much sums up the quality of what to expect.
I am quite serious about this venture and would appreciate as much feedback as possible. Please use this email address for your feedback and suggestions: SUBWAY@catskillarts.com
Thank you!
Hey Chris! Count me in if you plan on doing HO scale models of any of the following:
R-4/9 series, R-11/34, R-38 or the R-40 (slants).
Keep me posted on your progress. And of course I'll see you over at the "Modeling NYCTA" boards...
Doug aka BMTman
Yes, please make ' o ' scale models of the c-types, the 1300's both styles the coaches and the convertibles, the q types would be a big jump forward in traction modeling, and make them as models to build as the old traction and models magazine had for sale, they still look good today (if you can find them ) and interior details are available for seats and lighting, and keep the price within easy reach as there are a lot of older modelers who are on fixed incomes who can't afford the sky high prices that are asked for models,which wind up in the hands of others who grab and horde in hopes of a 'collector peice' . I get mad at this type of modeler ? who has no condersideration for others,lets have the cars available in ho scale as well,for the modelers who want to either run the cars or want static models.thanks for wanting to help...thanks ; - )
Nothing would please me more than a pair of Slant R40s, preferably #4412-4413, signed up for the L or #4208-4209 (the "Ghost" cars), signed up for the Q. They should have their current configuration, with the safety rails and pantograph gates. I might be able to do some of the interior and exterior decoration myself, but don't have the equipment to do the body.
Wayne
Wayne: You speak of a ghost R-40. Last week I rode the N thru Coney Is Yard and saw an R-40 or rather two-thirds of an R-40,it was missing both ends. Would this be the train that you were speaking of?
Regards,Larry,Redbird
I'd love to have the r-40 slants or the r46/r-62/r-68 styles!
next month some hobby store will have "N" R46 two cars set and it cost about almost $400. One power and one unpower.
I would dearly love to see the R-1/9s in S gauge. I'd get a whole fleet of them! If there could be a chip implanted with their grunting, moaning and groaning sounds, as well as the throbbing air compressors, that would be icing on the cake.
Was just discussing this subject with a friend. Anyone think that a repeat of KT could occur?
For newcomers/uninitiated: about 8/9 years ago a 16 year-old kid posing as an NYCT motorman "stole" an 'A' train and almost got away with the ruse. He was only discovered when he released the controls in a panic after having passed a "redball" while negotiating a curve at too high a rate of speed. I think that was the jist of the story.
Of course there were serious "security" considerations, but I'm not thourghly convinced that it couldn't happen sometime in the future.
Doug aka BMTman
I thick it highly unlikely but you never Know. Before that Incident The Train Dispatchor Had a Road to run and still do but they Didn't Realy pay attention to the Train Crew that much. But don't get my wrong there were lot of alert Dispachors. But a 16 YR old was the last thing on any ones mind. It was easy for Keron since he know the ropes. Kind of like a lot of young buffs. now at some Term. you have a 3rd Dispatchor that checks you to make sure your a real C/R OR T/O and that your fit for Duty witch are Crew Reporting Centers. All termanals have them but most only have 2 Dispachors like a T/D or ATD. The ATD is then responsible for your fitness of Duty. Also the TSS check up on T/O more. If Keron didn't make the one Mistake we would have never known. If you going to steal a train know your road.
I remember reading about that incident. It seemed this fellow DID know his route to the extent that he remembered to push the right button at, I believe, 125th St. On top of that, none of the passengers complained, and even the conductor said the train stopped and started up smoothly at each station. The big mystery was how this kid managed to obtain a brake handle and other tools of the trade, as well as the pass code of the vacationing motorman he used. Many people came to his defense, even to the point of suggesting he be given an internship or apprenticeship as an operator. When the train got tripped, he didn't answer the radio from Command Center a la Pelham 1-2-3, which tried contacting him for half an hour. It's true that if the train hadn't gotten tripped, no one would have ever known, and that vacationing motorman would have found an overtime paycheck waiting for him when he got home.
The only inconsistency in the article was a statement that the train consisted of ten R-44s, which we all know is false.
As I recall from news reports at the time, the computer system that theoretically could track what motorman was (supposedly) on the train had enough bugs in it that they didn't find out what motorman's pass had been used until the motorman returned from vacation, found the overtime paycheck, and went to his supervision to give back the money he hadn't earned.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
This is the way I think the IRT should be Ran.
The No.1 Line all stops all times Forget that Skip Stop how do you save time the No.9 passes 4 stops and the No.1 passes 3 stops. If they insist on running the No.9 make it useful. Run the No.9 Exp peak direction from 137 St to 96 ST. Then Exp from 96 to Chambers becides most people leave the train at 96 St for the Exp.
The No. 2 Line I like as is
The No.3 Line Cut that back on that line don't run that line on Weekends its a waste. Just add more No 2 service. Besides how many people get off at 145 or 148?
No. 4 Weekends increase service and make that a Local from Nevins St to New lots Ave. Also run the No. 4 to New Lots all the time lots of people go to E New York.
No. 5 run that train to Flatbush all times exept Nights
No. 6 Line run that train to Bowling Green. Every other train. Keep some trains turnning at Brooklyn Bridge so us rail Buffs can so the City Hall Station
You might have a point there. Maybe the 4 line would better serve the ENY area better than the 3. I live right where the 3 goes over the L and at night there is frequent 4 service. More frequent than the 3 during the day. Only time the 4 is not that frequent is on Sunday mornings. I dont think the 5 need to go to Flatbush at all times. The only reason why 6 should go to Bowling Green is so that the A could transfer with every single line in the system. (The 6 is the only line that the A does not transfer with.)
You have a point about the No.1 Line but I'm not sure about the No.9. I agree that the Skip stops don't work but the No.9 Exp from 137 to 96? Besides a TSS told me there going to have some No.3 trains go to 137 St because people complained when service when't back to Normal after the Lenox REHAB. I will have to wait for the A Division Pick book to find that out. The No. 3 should just stay the way it is exept extend that Lenox Shuttle down to 96 St during the TIMES they run it. I also think the No.4 should go to New Lots. But Transit probably will not let that happen because of instent Overtime or have to make the jobs 2 Trips witch would add more Jobs. About the No.5 Should stay as is for weekends but should run the 5 to Flatbush Midday ofcause this is just dream land because I don't see that happening. I'm not sure about the No.6 to Bowling Green I love going around the City Hall Loop but with the mayor being parinoid how knows.
Just a thought....Maybe the reason in addition to the additional overtime incurred is.....is it neccessary (sorry) I can't spell) to have a 5 minute headway to New Lots? 10 minutes for #3's and 10 minutes for #4's make for an even five minute headway. If New Lots got this kind of service, the folks along the 2 line would want the 5's to come back there during the day. It just seems to have the potential for a bit of an uneeded bottleneck.
You have a point I forgot that in order to have the No.5 to go to Flatbush it crosses over and delays the No.2,3 service because the No. goes over 2 switches. So just send them Local at Nevins. Ofcouse the No.5 will stay at Bowling Green.
Exactly
1: local all times
2: normal
3: run except weekends let 4 do fill in duty to New Lots
4: run express from 125 to Woodlawn. Weekend service to New Lots.
5: 238 St bound trains run express to and from Gun Hill Rd.
6. Rename E.177 St.
7: normal. Express service on summer weekends for Mets games.
9: Express from 96-137
The #5 shouldnt run to Flatbush during middays. It is pain at rush hour when you on the 3 and you have to wait for the 5 to cross over after Franklin. Then by the time you get to Utica a 4 come rolling in.
I get the feeling we won't be able to see City Hall station any time soon, as long as there is a mayor in office who's afraid of the sound of his own farts.
Unless it can be justified, chances are the 6 won't be extended to Bowling Green. It did go to South Ferry at one time during certain hours.
The #2 should be the Bronx Thru express. Run the #5 as the local to Dyre Av. It takes forever for the 2 to reach Manhattan. Also it sucks when you're on the 2 at East 180th and you have to wait for a 5 to Dyre to cross in front of the 2.
I don't understand the 1/9 skip-stop service's point. The skipping has no use. Shouldn't it skip-stop literally at some point? Each one doing every other station? What do other cities do?
I Can't figure out why Transit would have a 1/9 Skip Stop when its not really a Skip Stop. Joes right the No.1 only passes 3 Stops and the No.9 Only 4. Why isn't 231 St a skip station. Why not skip down to 96 St.
The Market Street Ele skip stops seem to work.(I don't know for sure I only visit Phila once a year)
I have ridden both the #1 and #9 skip stop and found them to be nice rides. Skip-stop doesn't so much save time(it does a little) as keep the trains moving and clear the track for the following train. When the 1/9 skip-stop began the 1 also skipped 191 St. The J/z skip-stop seems to work a little better and faster possible because each train skips 7 stops and then runs express bypassing four more.The Market-Frankford A/B skip-stop used to skip a total of six stations each. Now the A trains skip 5 and the B trains skip 4.
Regards,Larry,RedbirdR33
Each non-skip station on the 1/9 is for a reason. 168st because of the obvious transfer, 181st for the GWB Bus Terminal, and 231st because it's the connection hub for buses up the hill to Riverdale. I haven't figured out why they both stop at 191st, but I'd assume it has to do with heavy loadings, having seen the sttation several times during the AM rush.
-Hank
Ok I know why there have to stop at 191 St is because of the Elevators.
Today @ 59th st on the 4 or 5 someone fell out while walking between cars. 2 Ques. related to this:
1 Will all new cars have locked doors?
2 I was told that was a problem with the original slants, People were falling out while changing cars, is that true?
So thats why I heard the Lex Line was messed up. I was told the was a man that fell under a No.5 Train at 125 St and then a No. 4 train runs him over T/O couldn't stop in time. There was 2 No.5 trains under Investgation. So Know you saying there was a man under at 59 St witch involed another No.5.
In fact, Wednesday was a very bad day for 12-9s. There were actually 3 of them, all resulting in fatalities. The first was on the 'L' line, resulting in a 120 minute delay. The second was on the #5 line resulting in a 119 minute delay. The 3rd was on the F line resulting in an83 minute delay. Al occurred before 11 am......
There was a 12-9 on the Lowell Branch of the MBTA Purple Line commuter rail last evening too. My understanding is that someone's pet ran onto the tracks, and the owner went after the pet. Neither won the race with the train.
Steve,
About that one on the No 4,5 Lines I heard that the guy fell from the No.5 and was killed by the following No. 4. Was that True?
Website called www.rotten.com has graphic details of "Man vs. Train" outcome.
I never saw a outcome like that but herd of it. That put shivers down my spin looking at thoses Pictures.
[Website called www.rotten.com has graphic details of "Man vs. Train" outcome.]
Something interesting occurred to me. The site claimed that the pictures were taken by an Emergency Medical Technician in the "Eastern U.S." in June 1995, but didn't give the EMT's name or a more precise location. I guess they figured that the EMT would get "reengineered" if his supervisors found out that he'd sent the pictures to such a sleazy site, so they protected his identity.
Yet it's probably possible to track down the EMT. A date stamp on the pictures show they were taken on June 30, 1995. I suspect there couldn't have been more than one male beheaded by a train on that date! There must be records available (NTSB?) giving the exact location of the incident. That would make it possible to determine what EMT squad responded, and the squad's records would identities of the EMTs involved. No doubt the squad's commander could take it one step further and find out who was the mystery photographer.
That was in bad taste. That picture makes any normal person sick. I hope they find the EMT worker that gave the photo. Maybe they can get him for tampering with Evidence.
I have seen something over 25 "Man-under" incidents during my career. I really don't need to see the pictures. Some of the images are etched into my memory. I've seen real people taken out from under trains, taken from the roof of trains, taken out crushed, taken out cut in pieces and taken out burnt. I can't imagine anyone wanting to see pictures of it or anyone thinking that it's a subject to glorify.
I suppose a picture of that sort could serve a useful purpose as a safety warning. Sort of like those car-crash movies they used to show in driver's ed. But it looks like the case in question was a suicide, so the warning aspect would be rather pointless.
That rotten.com site probably appeals to people who are into the Faces of Death videos and stuff like that. Still, the "Incident with a Bird" page *was* amusing!
Steve,
Come to think of it I had a 12-9 about 4 Years ago on Feb,9,1995. Tis was a 14 St on my last trip going Uptown on the No.1 Line. It turned out it was a Homeless man with a Crack pipe. He fell bettween the 8 and 9 car. The man survived actally I never found him under the train because he got up on his own and took a seat in the 9 car all bloodly and everything. The Conductor was alerted by passendgers. That was very crazy seen. I hope I never have another one
I'm not completely familiar with lingo, but I'm assuming that a "12-9" is any person hit by a train (whether they fell between cars or in front of the train).
It's good to hear that 3 in a day is out of the ordinary, but that got me to wondering -- What is ordinary? How many 12-9's occur in the average year?
For the latest 12-9s and other police and fire activities, I recommend subscribing to paging groups like these. I was a subsciber to BNN and am now on MNS.
(BNN) Breaking New Network
Major portion of East Coast from New York to Northern VA
www.breakingnews.com/
robg@breakingnews.com
1-888-875-6100
Metro Notification Service of New York City
GROUP STAFF OF 20 DISPATCHERS, ADVISOR ELITE PAGERS, RADIO GROUP,
24HR CUSTOMER SERVICE
http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/mnsny/
mnsny@mail.com
Contact: Morris J. Torf, Nussy Brauner or Christopher Shand
c/o New York Central Radio System
P.O. 790065, Flushing, NY 11379
Office: 718- 416-4030
Tel # to Order pagers: 212-544-2580
[re people falling while crossing between cars]
That wasn't quite the problem with the Slant R-40s. As they were originally designed, the large gaps between the cars proved tempting for people trying to board after the doors had closed. Resulting safety risks led to installation of those ugly barriers. As far as I know, the original Slants were not particularly dangerous for riders crossing between cars. Wayne surely would know more about that.
Having gotten stuck on a 4 train of Redbirds at Wall St, I had a nice, long talk with Mr. Conductor (despite my assurances that I was going to call the TA and tell them that he was in fact doing a fantastic job in the face of disaster, and not report him for a problem) about how this always seems to happen at the rush hour, and so on. Stop and stay at Wall St, and Brooklyn Bridge. At 14st, we crossed to the local track and made local stops to GCT (where I got off) There were trains laid up between 14st (on the platform, R62 on a 4) and GCT (again) on the express track, and oddly, or perhaps, only in NY, while the train at GCT was dark, had its doors closed, and had two uniformed PO's telling people that all service was on the local track, people were STILL waiting to get on the express. Add in the PA voice, alerting passengers (and then customers) to the delays, ('Due to a passenger injury at 59st, all 4 and 5 trains are running on the local track from [GCT] to 125st There is no express service at this time...Please do not wait for the uptown express, there is no....[repeated]' At one point, the passenger injury became a customer injury)
Conductor also advised me that the injury was indeed a 'man under' at 59st, and listening to trains being rerouted on his radio.
-Hank
Since door alignment on curves is not a problem with shorter cars, chances are the storm doors may remain unlocked on R-142s. Ditto for the R-143s if they end up being 60 feet long.
I've walked between cars myself on a moving train on occasion, but will acknowledge that it's dangerous. I did it once on a B train of slant R-40s out of Coney Island in a pouring rainstorm, only I waited until the train stopped before passing on to the next car.
So: the doors between cars are unlocked in the New York Subway? Good grief -that sound dangerous to me!
I am a train operator in the Stockholm Underground, and all doors are locked on our cars. In fact, if a emergency end door for some reason would not lock, the car would at least be isolated, or the train taken out of service. Nevertheless, it is quite popular among our more drunk & rowdy customers to force these doors open for various reasons (riding on the coupler, peeing, whatever.). In fact, a few years ago there was a case of someone forcing a end door open, stepping out on the coupler, falling down and being dragged for about a kilometre, all the time falling to pieces. That is in itself not all that unusual, but for various reasons, this case got a lot of publicity in some of the more low-brow papers, who launched a campaign on the theme that it was too easy to force these locks open, complete with an illustrated step-for- step guide in a national tabloid. What to do with some people, eh?
Some NY subway cars have locked end doors. These are the 75-foot cars in the R-44, R-46 and R-68 series. Their doors are locked because their greater length can result in dangerously wide gaps between cars when trains go around curves. Other cars have unlocked end doors.
Anybody know where I could get a model subway cars??
Here's a different type of transit topic: Kayaks!
An eskimo couple were riding in their kayak (type of canoe) when they became very chilly, so they lit a fire in the boat, and it sank. This proves once and for all that you can't have your kayak and heat it too.
Get the Hook!!!!
Karl: If you ever told that one at Ebbetts Field its no wonder the Dodgers left Brooklyn.
Best Wishes,Larry,Redbird
Larry,Redbird: Your response is better than my original digression!
Regards,Karl B
Karl: Forgive me. I couldn't resist. I did get a good chuckle out of your story though. I'm a long time Yankee fan but I know the old Brooklyn Dodgers were well loved by their fans, when they left a little bit of Brooklyn left too.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Karl: Forgive me. I couldn't resist. I did get a good chuckle out of your story though. I've been a longtime Yankee fan myself but I know the Brooklyn Dodgers were well loved by their fans,when they left a little bit of Brooklyn left too.
Best Wishes,Larry
Larry,Redbird: Your response is better than my original digression!
Regards,Karl B
Karl: Forgive me. I couldn't resist. I did get a good chuckle out of your story though. I'm a long time Yankee fan but I know the old Brooklyn Dodgers were well loved by their fans, when they left a little bit of Brooklyn left too.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Karl: Forgive me. I couldn't resist. I did get a good chuckle out of your story though. I've been a longtime Yankee fan myself but I know the Brooklyn Dodgers were well loved by their fans,when they left a little bit of Brooklyn left too.
Best Wishes,Larry
That deserves a rim shot.
It's almost as bad as my reference to the R-1/9s and the way they would howl ass.
I can see the hook coming. Bye!
Help me out here guys, what is the difference between the R40M and R42?
Mike: The last 100 of the R-40 order received a modified(M) or straight end but they retained the long narrow door at the no. 2 end of the car.They have a curved indentation running about waist height for the length of the car and they have a much thinner stainless steel ribbing then the R-42s. The R-42's have the full square rectangle window in the storm doors at both end of the car.
Regards,Larry,RedbirdR33
You can also spot their unit numbers as follows: #4450 thru #4549, with #4460 mated temporarily to R42 #4665. (#4461 is undergoing extensive front-end surgery)
The front storm door window is a few inches shorter than the R42.
Interiorwise, there is no stainless steel paneling, just beige paint.
The handholds behind the cabs are like the rest of the R40.
The fastest way to spot R40Ms is, as RedbirdR33 said, is by the ribbing on the sides, whis is more closely spaced than that on the R42.
Wayne
And the most uncomfortable seats on the planet.
We're having a snow storm (one foot plus!) here in Boston today... there were a lot of "snow birds" on my commuter train this morning - those that normally drive, but take the train when it snows, so that already overcrowded trains are outrageously overpacked. That's a brief look at transit and weather together.
Now here's the most famous Boston subway song, sung by the Kingston Trio (peak Billboard position #15 in 1959). Words and Music by Bess Hawes and Jacqueline Steiner.
CHARLIE ON THE M.T.A
Let me tell ya of a story 'bout a man named Charlie, on a tragic and faithful day. He put ten cents in his pocket, kissed his wife and family, went to ride on the M.T.A.
Chorus: But did he ever return? No, he never returned, and his fate is still unlearned. (Poor old charlie). He may ride forever 'neath the streets of Boston, he's the man who never returned.
Charlie handed in his dime at the Kendall Square Station and he changed for Jamaca Plain. When he got there the conductor told him, "one more nickle," Charlie couldn't get off that train.
[chorus]
Well all night long Charlie rides through the stations, saying, "What will become of me? How can I afford to see my sister in Chelsea, or my cousin or Roxbury?"
[chorus]
Charlie's wife goes down to the Scollay Square station, every day at a quarter past two. And through the open window, she hands Charlie a sandwich, as the train goes a rumbling through.
[chorus]
Now you citizens of Boston, don't you think it's a scandal That the people have to pay and pay? Fight the fare increase, vote for George O'Brien - And get Charlie off the MTA.
[chorus]
---------------------------------------------------------------
By the way, George lost the election. He passed away last year.
However, it's still a Classic. Snow is threatened for Baltimore, and the usual panic has already ensued. I ran to the store last night at 8:45 PM and it was mobbed!!
I was in Boston the past 4 days (a conference) and left yesterday evening. I guess it's a good thing, too.
BTW, picture window PCC 3295 and the type-5 5734 are resting quietly at Boylston. This years ERA convention was supposed to be in Boston but won't because of "the unavailablity of affordible hotel rooms and the type-5 and/or PCC". It's supposed to be at another yet-to-be-determined eastern city. Wonder what happened?
--Mark
I can certainly understand the "no affordable hotel rooms" in Boston. It's a seller's market here; rates in and near town are usually $200+.
The PCC (MBTA-owned) and Type-5 (Seashore-owned, on loan to the T) are now stored on a non-connected siding at Boylston since they need room at Riverside to accept the Type-8s. Each runs (they were run there from Riverside to Boylston a few months ago). Why the MBTA won't let ERA use them for fan trips, I don't know.
And the snow is getting deeper...
Another snow job for Boston - but we're used to that with all the politicians in town. :)
Hotel rooms in Beantown are expensive, granted, but I can't imagine the ERA being concerned about that - not when they are planning a $60/plate dinner in April (no disrespect intended to the honoree - I'm told he has done a tremendous amount for the organization and is deserving of great praise - but I can't afford to spend that much for a meal).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I know that song however, I never had the words. Thanks allot.
Meanwhile, we're basking in 60-plus degree weather in metro Denver.
The mountains have plenty of snow, but we've hardly gotten any this winter. No complaints from me on that front. It's gotta be La Nina.
I hope Petula Clark doesn't object if I rephrase her famous tune: "Don't sleep in the subway, darling, don't stand in the blowing snow, etc."
You don't know what you started here with the words to MTA!! We started a hunt for our copy of the record, eventually found it, and played it several times. This started a nostalgia wave, and we've been playing music from the 50's ever since! Not a darn thing is getting accomplished here today!! Thanks for the memories! Karl B
My pleasure!
When I was a DJ on our college radio station (WTBS, but that's a different program!) here in greater Boston during the 70's, I used to play it frequently.
All right folks, here is an even better route. This one passes through all stations at least once in an estimated 21 hours, 15 minutes, which would bag the record:
A round-robin starting at Rockaway Park via Mott Avenue to Rockaway Blvd, reverse to Lefferts Blvd., reverse to 145th St., D to 205th St., reverse to 145th St., A to 207th St., reverse to 168th St. (210 minutes)
1 to 242nd St., reverse to 96th St. (60 minutes)
3 to 148th St., reverse to Chambers St, 1 to South Ferry loop to Chambers St (60 minutes)
2 to Flatbush Avenue, reverse to Franklin Ave. (40 minutes)
3 to New Lots Avenue, reverse to Junius St. (40 minutes)
Metrocard transfer to L to Canarsie, reverse to 6th Avenue, reverse to Lorimer St. (75 minutes)
G to Court Sq., reverse to Smith-9th Sts. (60 minutes)
F to Coney Island (25 minutes)
D to DeKalb Avenue (20 minutes)
B to Coney Island (40 minutes)
N to 59th St. (20 minutes)
R to 95th St., reverse to 9th St. (40 minutes)
F to Rock Center (20 minutes)
Q to Queensbridge, reverse to Rock Center (30 minutes)
D to 7th Avenue (5 minutes)
E to Union Tpk (25 minutes)
F to 179th St., reverse to Union Tpk (25 minutes)
E to Jamaica Center (10 minutes)
J to Myrtle Avenue, M to Metropolitan Ave., reverse to Broad St, reverse to Canal St., (110 minutes)
N to Whitehall St, reverse to Ditmars Blvd., reverse to Queensboro Plaza (80 minutes)
7 to Main St., reverse to Grand Central (60 minutes)
4 to Bowling Green, reverse to Woodlawn, reverse to 149-Grand Concourse (85 minutes)
2 to 241, reverse to 180th St. (45 minutes)
5 to Dyre Avenue, reverse to 125th St. (60 minutes)
6 to Pelham Bay Pk. (35 minutes)
When are we going?
Looks like you've been doing your homework! But doesn't the use of a Metrocard transfer violate the spirit of the challenge - to do it all without ever leaving the system?
Perhaps there should be multiple categories - one that would permit such a transfer, one that would require all express and local tracks to be run, etc. How many different routings would you all come up with then?!?!
Health issues would preclude me from participating in a record run, but I'll be there in spirit with anyone who tries!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Q doesn't go to Queensbridge anymore.
What a plan!!!
A couple questions, though, in addition to those already listed...
Have you included waiting times in your calculations? I counted about 50 transfers during your trip. If you have to wait an average of 5 minutes per transfer, that adds 250 minutes (over 4 hours) to your trip.
Does the A round robin still run? I don't think it does, but if it does it's during the overnight when the A is local. Can you make the first segment of the trip in 210 minutes if you have to go local along Fulton Street and 8th avenue?
Good luck!
The A doesn't run round-robin and do each of the two possible routes between Grand Central and Times Sq have to be covered? (all stations are covered by the other lines.
My guess is that the 3 - L Metrocard Xfr breaks the spirit of the game.
And what about the E in 25 minutes to Jamaica? Doesn't one have to go THROUGH all stops to break the record? If so, a local train would be necessary to access Steinway, 46th, etc... and it would also add two transfers to and from the E, making it impossible to complete in 25 minutes.
I believe that to break the rule, you must do it all on ONE FARE. Using a Metrocard transfer would not violate this rule.
I wonder if people that jump off subway station platforms and get hit by incoming trains win law suits again the Transit Authority? This is assuming that they live to get an Attorney to start litigation. Are there any Attorneys listening like the guy with Esq. after his name?
Actually, it doesn't really matter if they don't live to hire an attorney, since their heirs could, IF they have a case, sue for wrongful death.
I would tend to think the issue is the same whether the person jumps, someone else pushed them on purpose, or they just fall: could the train have reasonably been stopped in time or not? Since, in most cases, there was nothing the motorman could do but apply full braking power, sound his horn, and pray -- and that is what he did -- I would say the case would either be dismissed or would settle for "nuisance value" (a few hundred or thousand dollars).
Because most people end up in front of a train through no fault of the railway, and since in most cases the train simply couldn't stop in time, many people don't bother to sue, and very few who do win. That's why you rarely hear of lawsuits arising out of railway-crossing accidents.
Assuming that somebody DID act negligently and they could have stopped in time except for their negligence (and, like I said above, I KNOW that's a big if), why should it matter that the person was a jumper? The TA and its workers have a duty to all passengers to take reasonable care, and that doesn't change by how the person ended up on the track. If it were otherwise, and the duty to take reasonable care not to injure another disappeared if they were attempting suicide, you could with impunity shoot, stab, or intentionally run over with a car a person who was about to commit suicide.
Sueing for wrongful death is a Crap Shoot when an individual sues a transit agency. Dealing with a public agency or corporation and the attorneys is much more aggravating than the the wrong incident itself. Besides, the attorneys get rich and the plaintiff pays for it. When it gets to court it costs the plaintiff thousands of dollars if the case was taken on contingency. And then it is Crap Shoot with the jury and may the best party win who has the best performance and not the facts.
Mortal to the story, never sue anyone.
By the way, the deposition process should be eliminated. Discovery is OK to get information but depositions create problems. Everything should be done like small claims court except for interrogatories. Trial by abush is the way to go. Between the attorneys, system and appeals we all could die before a matter is resolved.
REVISED COPY
Sueing for wrongful death is a Crap Shoot when an individual sues a transit agency. Dealing with a public agency or corporation
and the attorneys is much more aggravating than the the wrong incident itself. Besides, the attorneys get rich and the plaintiff
pays for it. When it gets to court it costs the plaintiff thousands of dollars if the case was taken on contingency. And then it is a
Crap Shoot with the jury and may the best party win who has the best show regardless what the facts are.
Moral to the story, never sue anyone. It only makes the attorneys rich.
By the way, the deposition process should be eliminated. Discovery is OK to get information but depositions create problems and are costly. All attorneys do is compare the deposition testimony with the one at the trial and if you slip you loose the case. When a law suit is filed, the defendent always denies the complaint even if the answer involves lying. All the attorneys answer the complaint the same way and play the game. All cases should be done like small claims court except for interrogatories. Trial by ambush is the way to go. Between the attorneys, the justice system and appeals we all could die before a matter is resolved.
This message may be alittle off the subject of transit however, it does apply for every law suit against a transit agency.
I don't entirely disagree with this one -- except to say that we attorneys do NOT get rich off of these cases, for the simple reason that the delays you talk about mean that our costs rise and the contingency fee at the end is for a few year's work rather than a few month's work. See the movie "Civil Action" to get an extreme-case scenario of what I mean.
I also don't think that it's a "crap shoot" with juries. It's true that you don't always know what they will decide, but they almost always make a decision based on reason and experience. I've never argued a case to a jury, but I sat in on a lot of jury trials and read even more of them in law school, and I generally thought that the jury's decision was reasonable. NOT always right, but almost always reasonable. Remember that reasonable people can differ, and the fact that a jury came to the wrong decision doesn't mean they were irrational. Good example of that: the McDonald's coffee case, where if you read the WHOLE case, and not the half-case the media prints, you see that the jury had at least a reasonable basis for its decision, even if you still don't agree with it. (Of course, the exception to this rule is the G*d-damned O.J. Simpson criminal-trial jury!)
But its true that suing the Transit Authority is a b*tch! Here in Chicago, the CTA and the Chicago Park District have a reputation for playing hardball. I personally think depositions can be useful, but "hardball" defense attorneys, especially representing large organizations like the TA or the Park District, use them as a weapon and delay tactic, like you describe. Mainly, they do this when you want to depose one of their own employees or officers. They shuffle the schedule on you, claiming that the worker's schedule can't accomodate the deposition time you first requested, and then when they -- eventually -- produce the deponent, getting useful information out of them is like pulling teeth. "Yes" and "No" answers are all you get, because corporate counsel is sitting right there with them, and they fear the implications for their career if they give full and real answers.
Another hurdle you face when you're up against the CTA, which you may or may not face in New York, is that there is a very peculiar statute in Illinois that requires, on top of the usual one-year statute of limitations for suits against the CTA, that you must notify in writing the Secretary AND the General Counsel of the CTA within six months of the incident you are going to sue about, of the date, time, and place of the incident, the name and address of the victim, plus other sundry requirements I don't recall now. If you don't serve the notice on these two officials, getting their signatures on the affidavit of service, within six months of the incident, or the notice leaves out any ONE piece of required information, the complaint MUST be thrown out -- the judge has no discretion at all! When I practiced personal injury law, there was a case in the office against the CTA that was thrown out because we didn't put the time of the injury in the notice!
Remember that if the case is presented to the most objective jury in a subjective way, with game playing like discrediting a witness with harrassment and not presenting all the evident and facts in an objective way, than the jury will make the wrong decision. It is total fault of the lawyers and the judge to go along with this type of attorney behavior.
Judge's must laugh when they know that thousands of dollars are spent by both sides before the case is brought into court. I guess the joke is on the litigents for allowing it to get that far.
I must get off the bandwagon. We are getting off the transit subject at hand.
What do you think?
If one attorney is leaving out information, it's the other side's attorney's job to get it in! That's the heart of the adversarial system, where each attorney's job at trial is to present all the facts are favorable to his side and to TRY to keep out all facts that hurt his side. That's what he or she is SUPPOSED to do, and an attorney is not SUPPOSED to present things objectively!! Witnesses swear to tell the "whole truth", but the attorney is obligated only to not present evidence he or she knows is false.
What you condemn as "not presenting all the evident and facts in an objective way" is why the system works in most cases, and why any alternative system would not work. Before they ever hire attorneys, the two sides of the case see things differently, or they would have come to some sort of amicable arrangement without suing. If there were no lawyers and every litigant argued their case to the judge themselves, they would be doing the EXACT same thing the attorney does -- stating the facts most favorable to their case and leaving out unfavorable ones! But since there are TWO of them doing this, the facts that one side leaves out because they hurt him are brought in by the other side because they help him! If both attorneys are competent, all the relevant facts will be put on the table by one side or the other, and the judge or jury will be able to make an objective decision.
In short, it's the judge's job to be objective, while it's the job of the two attorneys to make their client's case look the strongest without lying -- which is what the two sides would do anyway without the attorneys. When you say that the attorneys are being "subjective," that's what they are supposed to be! It's the power of two attorneys being subjective against each other that leads (in most cases) to the objective truth.
As to "harassing" witnesses, it's been known for witnesses to lie, or, more often, to slant the truth according to their natural biases, and a good attorney BETTER catch when the other side's witness is lying or slanting! If you know or strongly suspect that the witness is lying, should you put on kid gloves and be polite and "objective", or should you demonstrate to the judge and jury that he or she is lying and cannot be believed? One man's poison is another's morning tea!
[Remember that reasonable people can differ, and the fact that a jury came to the wrong decision doesn't mean they were irrational. Good example of that: the McDonald's coffee case, where if you read the WHOLE case, and not the half-case the media prints, you see that the jury had at least a reasonable basis for its decision, even if you still don't agree with it. (Of course, the exception to this rule is the G*d-damned O.J. Simpson criminal-trial jury!)]
Criminal juries in the Bronx routinely make the Simpson jurors look like junior Einsteins. Their acquittal rate is probably the highest of any large county or city in the country. You might say that typical Bronx jurors have a very bad combination - inflated egos and deflated I.Q. scores.
I wouldn't want to have a case tried in the Bronx. It could be bomb. Maybe that where the name Bronx Bombers come from.
If you ask me, the Train Operator should sue the estate of the Platform Jumpers for mental distress....
[If you ask me, the Train Operator should sue the estate of the Platform Jumpers for mental distress....]
Something similar's already happened. Several years ago, a group of antiwar protestors lay down on the tracks leading to a naval supply base in California, hoping to block a train carrying munitions. The train was unable to stop in time and severed a protestor's legs (he lived). Citing mental distress or some similar theory, the engineer brought suit against the now-disabled protestor. I don't know if that was the original suit or a countersuit to the protestor's action.
What is the difference between R44 and R46?
This isn't meant to be all-inclusive. I stand corrected if there are any errors.
The R-44s were built by St. Louis Car Co., which closed up shop after completing the order.
The R-46s were built by Pullman Standard, which also bid adios after completing the order.
The R-46s managed to improve on several shortcomings on the R-44s from an operational standpoint.
Both classes of cars have Ohio Brass couplers and similar running gear, but because of wiring differences cannot m. u. with each other. They were designed for operation on the 2nd Ave. line originally.
Externally, both classes look very much alike. Aside from the car numbers, which have changed since they were new, there is another way to tell them apart: originally, they had a blue stripe along the entire length of the car, except for the doors. These stripes were removed during GOH. On the R-44s, the area where the stripe was is painted silver and does not blend in with the stainless steel skin. On the R-46s, the area where the stripe was is shiny stainless steel.
All R-44s are assigned to the A line. There is also a group of R-44s on the Staten Island line built under the same contract. The R-46s currently run on the F, G, and R lines.
Let me add that the door to the crew cad is also different. On R-44 it's a small door that swings in. The R-46 have a larger sliding door.
There also is a diffenrence in the seating arrangement in the "A" units.At the No 2 end I believe the R-44's have a three seat longitudinal bench along the wall while the R-46's have a two seat bench against the bulkhead.This accounts for the R-44's seating 72 and the R-46 seating 70.
Regards,Larry,RedbirdR-33
R44s have glass panels in the partitions near the doors; R46 used to have them but they have been removed.
Wayne
R46 cabs have much more space in them for the motorman. The R-44 cab is much tighter and not comfortable for those of us who are big or tall.
Yes, and on the R-44s, the window in the cab door can pop out if you lean against it. I saw it happen once.
Oh, and those door chimes. The R-44s were the first cars to have them since the BMT experimental Green Hornet unit. Some of those chimes are painfully out of tune.
Also...they have 2 different controllors(though similar). The R44 has a westcode controllor as we like to call them..pop-o-matic. You need a death grip on them so they train does not dump(emergrncy brake application via the dead-man feature). The R-46 has the NY airbrake controllor is alot smoother to use.
The similarity is that there is only one handle for both the brake and acceleration. All other equipment has a seperate handle. The controllor for acceleration(taking power) and the brake handle (obviously for the brake.
You don't suppose that controller got the name pop-o-matic from the kids' games by the same name (trouble and headache) which were sold during the late 60s, do you? My sister had a pop-o-matic Trouble game back then.
Thanks to Steve I put up the R44 renumbering chart on the R44 Page last night.
-Dave
Is the lower half of that list screwed up somehow? It seems kind of funny, with the extra numbers for unrebuilt cars, and the SIR cars that seem to have been renumbered from 1096 to 399?
-Hank
Oops, you're right. I left the MS Access row numbers in that part of the list. Sorry about that.
-Dave
Since there are so many answers to your question, I'll only give differences which are significant and have not already been given.
Propulsion.....R-44 = Westinghouse E-Cam.....R-46 = GE SCM-1
Air Brake .....R-44 = Westcode ..............R-46 = NYAB
HVAC ..........R-44 = Stone Safety ..........R-46 = Thermoking
Door System....R-44 = Vapor .................R-46 = Westcode
Static Convert.R-44 = Westinghouse ..........R-46 = General Elec.
Air Compressor R-44 = Knorr Rotary ..........R-46 = WABCO D-4ES
Performance ...R-44 = Not too bad ...........R-46 = Much Better
Hey where can I personalize my own subway map? How can I do this? Anybody with info let me know.......
This morning on the El, it had another one of it's classic hold-ups, and while waiting for the signal to turn, a woman said out loud "Why is there always a hold-up?"
I casually responded to her about the signals and the brake-trips.
She asked me if I worked for SEPTA( a response I commonly get when I tell people this) and replied "No, and I'm damn glad of it."
We had a short chat about shoddy SEPTA service( her bus coming into 69th St was held up).
Situations like these aren't neccesarily the most ideal, but most appropriate times to converse with a stranger on the subway.
And it is also important to know that you should be casual and polite, and not loud, obnoxious and almost badgering people to talk to you.
I would hate to work for SEPTA with all the storys I hear it makes my proud to work Mta NYCT.
I was looking at a track map and wondering why there isn't or mightn't be a QB Stop at York Street with a connection to the F.
If you build it they will come.
This is a very under used area very close to Manhattan. Another train would be the key ingredient to a real boom along the Brooklyn Waterfront.
There is a State Park, much bigger and greener than the promonade in the Heights.
There are lots of lofty spaces waiting for conversion to living.
There is easy access on foot to downtown Brooklyn.
There a one stop commute to Manhattan.
There is easy access to both Brooklyn and Manhattan bridges, for cars and feet and bicycles.
[I was looking at a track map and wondering why there isn't or mightn't be a QB Stop at York Street with a connection to the F.]
The QB is no longer running. I think the F is enough to get this area (now called DUMBO for Down Under the Manhattan Bridge Overpass by the realtors)adequate transportation access. It is only a single stop to Manhattan. The neiborhood is already turning into an artist community thanks to the countless warehouse turned lofts and it won't be soon after until it becomes the home of the gentry.
[There is a State Park, much bigger and greener than the promonade in the Heights.]
I don't believe that's correct. Empire Fulton Ferry State Park is not only the smallest New York State Park but is also the smallest state park in the country.
[There is easy access to both Brooklyn and Manhattan bridges, for cars and feet and bicycles.]
Also not quite right. There is no pedestrian or bicycle access to the Manhattan Bridge (although I believe they're working on that thank goodness).
The MTA proposed connecting the Manhattan Bridge lines to the Rutgers tunnel BEYOND York Street to provide awful, instead of no service, if and when the Manhattan Bridge fails. No one took heed, and the plan vanished.
It's more of a question of when, rather than if, the Manhattan Bridge falls apart. When did the MTA propose the Rutgers tunnel connection? You have to applaud them for at least trying to be proactive. They should have gone ahead and just done it.
There is a pedestrian walkway, but it is on the south side of the bridge and is closed due to construction---but we all know about that, don't we?
But I don't believe that the pedestrian walkway has ever been open. Can anyone confirm?
The south side walkway has been rebuilt. My guess is it will be reopened when they reopen the H tracks (to the Broadway Line) and shut down the A/B tracks. You can bet I'll be walking over when it happens. I walk over the Brooklyn Bridge a couple of times a week on the way in to work, but it doesn't have a subway on it.
[I walk over the Brooklyn Bridge a couple of times a week on the way in to work, but it doesn't have a subway on it.]
Didn't it used to have both Subways and Trolleys?
The old BRT had an el line that ran to Park Row over the Brooklyn Bridge;there was a serious fire during WWII, and service was cut back to Jay St.
Trolleys also ran over the Brooklyn Bridge at one time. Using today's roadways as a guide, the el trains used the portion of each roadway's extreme left lane; trolleys used the center lane area. After el service ended in 1944, the trolleys were shifted over to the el tracks, and the roadways were widened from one lane each to two. Trolley service over the bridge ended in 1950, and the roadways were subsequently widened once again.
The transit museum had a tour a year or two back (summer 1997?) that included a walk across the closed walkway and a climb down into the anchorage - oh, my aching legs!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Walkway on the WillieB has been under renovation but it's been open the entire time. I walked on it a few months ago.
The Williamsburg is not the Manhattan.
Quite correct. My memory may have failed me - the walkway may not indeed have been closed as I thought - but the tour encompassed both the WillieB and the Manhattan bridge, including both eastern anchorages.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I too was on that tour. We walked from the Brooklyn side to the Brooklyn Anchorage and went inside. We then returned to Brooklyn. The tour did not walk across the entire bridge. (I did because I wanted to walk the bridge.) The old walkway is in bad shape-holes in the deck, etc. The new walkway starts at roadway level and then rises to the level of the old walkway. I recently took the train across- there is still a section of old walkway in use-near the Manhattan Tower.AT some point there will be another new walkway on the other side (twin walkways) and the old removed.
Not the recently rebuilt one, but the old one, I heard, was closed in 1951.
[[I was looking at a track map and wondering why there isn't or mightn't be a QB Stop at York Street with a connection to the F.]
The QB is no longer running. I think the F is enough to get this area (now called DUMBO for Down Under the Manhattan Bridge Overpass by the realtors)adequate transportation access. It is only a single stop to Manhattan. The neiborhood is already turning into an artist community thanks to the countless warehouse turned lofts and it won't be soon after until it becomes the home of the gentry.]
York Street was mainly designed to serve the Brooklyn Navy Yard. With the drastic reduction in its workforce, the station has been left quite underutilized.
Enough bitching and address my question.
First of all I meant the D&Q trains running through the Rutgers Tunnel.
Second: I did not say that the State Park was big, only that it is bigger and greener than the Promendade in the Heights.
Third: I did not mean to evoke the Manhattan Bridge which seems to be the excuse for all lack of subway progress. I only wanted to suggest that the proximity to both the Brooklyn and Manhattan bridges is an additional bonus for the area. You can walk and bike across the Brooklyn Bridge. You can drive across both. (easy access to the city) all this negetivity is the reason nothing ever gets done. My question is a technical one. Is it possible/practical to make a station near York street with a connection to the F to bolster this particular area which, with better subway access might become super valuable real estate along the lines of Brooklyn Heights?
[I did not say that the State Park was big, only that it is bigger and greener than the Promendade in the Heights.]
I agree with you assessment of the color. However, I believe the Promenade is bigger.
Side question: The Brooklyn Heights Promenade, The Battery Park City Esplanade: What's the distinction between Promenade and Esplanade?
[Is it possible/practical to make a station near York street with a connection to the F to bolster this particular area which, with better subway access might become super valuable real estate along the lines of Brooklyn Heights? ]
And the answer is...
I'm sure it's possible to make a station near York Street. It's hardly practical. The York Street Station is still underutilized but as DUMBO attracts more artists to the area it will be used more. However, another station in the area would not attract more people to DUMBO to the point that real estate value equals Brooklyn Heights for a number of reasons. The most important reason being that Brooklyn Heights has Brownstones and DUMBO does not.
You might have read my rambling "G" loop idea in an earlier thread. In essence, ramps would have to be built to connect the G tracks to the F tracks TOWARD Jay St (posters seem to think that scissor switches would not be possible) and to either the 53rd or 63rd St tunnel. Then, the G could run in a loop through Manhattan once the 63rd St tunnel opened and freed capacity in Queens. In this case, York St would get G serivce and it would be possible to ride around from DUMBO/Navy Yard to Downtown Brooklyn to Fort Greene to Williamsburg to Greenpoint to Long Island City.
I believe this would boost the value of property and the extent of development along the entire route, which is the area with the greatest potential to expand the economic activity of Manhattan outward. As you can see, when Manhattan fills (as it is now) its price rises, and businesses move (or threaten to move) out. The growth of the city stops. We need to capture that spillover.
Of course, such connections cost money, and there are many connections which would be even more valuable to the city -- the connection to the airport, connecting the DeKalb trains to the Rutgers Tunnel, building the northern segment of the 2nd Ave subway, then the southern, extending the #7 to the West Side, etc. And, any money available is likely to be used to improve service for suburban commuters, not Brooklynites.
That's why I was suggesting one station only.
Like I said, It seems like a lot of bang for a little buck.
Soho too has strange lofty spaces and it's just a couple of stops away. Very expensive!
It seems to me that the three critical factors in Real Estate are Location, Location and Location. Not the style of housing. Again I am selling the Location of Vinegar Hill (DUMBO) and suggesting the added selling point of additional subway access to the equasion.
It is actually a nice and interesting area. It needs a few things like more people and more lights and more stores and another subway station, but might I suggest that People and lights and stores and a single subway station with a connection are much cheaper and easier than say a SPUR or a New Line. The issue is how to get the most for the smallest investment.
Just a thought.
[Side question: The Brooklyn Heights Promenade, The Battery Park City Esplanade: What's the distinction between Promenade and Esplanade?]
Both are walkways bordering bodies of water. But an esplanade is at roughly the same elevation as the body of water, while a promenade is elevateed.
No, I don't know if those are the dictionary definitions, I'm just thinking of the differences between the two cited examples :-)
I was looking at Joe Korman's website and he has the York St. station opening at the same time as E. Broadway, Delancey St, etc. However, Hagstrom's original 1936 subway map does not show it. Who is correct?
Bob Sklar
One thing I noticed recently: The "doors are closing" and "doors are opening" announcements do not always seem to accomplish what they are intended for.
Many times the lights flash and the doors are in motion when the announcement plays. When the operator is in a hurry, particulary say Saturday night around 11:30 you have to be out the door in a hurry...
seems like the announcements are 34thStreetDoorsareOpeningDoorsareClosing.
Even on more normal days, the doors still begin to move before the announcemnt completes; and if obstructed all the doors reopen and the announcement cuts off and restarts. (Doors are CDoors are ClosDoors are Closin etc)
Would it not make more sense for a tone of some sort or at least adifferent louder voice announce this? Perhaps "{ding-dong} - Doors are closing {ding-dong}" or something like that?
At least on the M-3's, with the operator out the window blowing the whistle, you hear it and you know what is going to happen.
Thoughts?
You're right. The voice annoucements are pretty useless they way they work now. I believe the lights actually do start flashing a moment before the doors start to close. It would only make sense for the voice announcements to start at the same time, but there seems to be that moment's delay, which totally defeats the purpose of a warning announcement.
In NYC, Washingtion, and probably other places, they use a two-tone chime, which makes much more sense. The chime plays before the doors start to move, which just makes sense. In Washington, I know that they do both - a chime plays, then you hear "Doors are closing". That way, the first time you use the system, you find out right away what the chimes mean, so the next time you hear the chimes, you will be fairly warned. Very effective.
On the M-4s, the purpose of the "Doors are opening" anouncement is a little mysterious to me. I imagine it has something to do with the blind, but I question the safety of a blind person navigating the subway without some kind of assistance - assistance that would let them know when to board the train. I imagine a dog could be trained to do that. Do other systems have door-opening warnings? I can't remember if other ones that I've ridden had them or not...
With SEPTA, however, I think their main goal with the voice announcements was solely to impress people. It certainly sounds high-tech and nifty, but does SEPTA actually care about a system that's useful and serves its purpose? Not so far as I've seen...
I've been to Chicago a couple of times to ride their "L"/subway
system, and I noticed that they don't use chimes to warn people that
the doors are closing...at least on the trains I've been on. The
motorman would often say "Watch the closing doors" over the PA system,
along with calling out the stations.
Same thing in New York for every car older than the R44.
Hey, did you get the name "Quigebo" from "The Simpsons"?
Yep..."The Simpsons" is one of my favorite TV shows. The name sounds funny, but I do know what Bart defines "Quigebo" as...hope "Quigebo" isn't copyrighted...or I'll have to be just R142 #2!
And speaking of "The Simpsons" in one episode, where they visit New York, they ride the subway (except Homer who goes to look for the car)in one scene. Also, in another episode, somebody (maybe Homer, Apu, Flanders, or Principal Skinner) comes out of a subway entrance...in Springfield! How about that, a subway in Springfield (of course it's just a cartoon - you would never have a subway in a small town in real life)?
Just thought it would be interesting to point that out.
None of Chicago's L trains have door chimes. Back when there were full-time conductors, they would announce stations, but I never heard one say, "Watch the closing doors."
I don't know if they do now, but I don't recall hearing operators on OPTO trains announcing stations. I can ask my aunt about that.
The conductors had a whole spiel that almost all of them gave, which went roughly "Welcome aboard Run Number xxx, the Blue Line, making all stops to Forest Park. No smoking, littering, or loud playing of radios. Stand clear of the doors. The next stop is ...." Of course, before the lines were given color names, the old route name (O'Hare/Congress, Howard/Dan Ryan, Lake/Jackson Park, etc.) was given instead.
It's been a few months since I've rode the subway (I take the Metra commuter rail in to work every day), but the last I recalled, the motormen WERE giving the same generic spiel, with the addition, after the "Stand clear..." part, of "The doors are closing". (Note that this is thus a generic warning, since the doors would actually be closed up to five seconds later!) When the platform was on the opposite side from the cab, and they had to come out to open the doors, you would **see** them announce the next stop right before taking the key out of the box and returning to the cab.
What were the old names of all the Chicago L and subway lines. I think Blue was O'Hare/Congress, Brown was Ravenswood, Yellow was Skokie Swift, and Red was Howard/Dan Ryan? But what about the others?
Don't forget there was a realingment of the Lake St., Dan Ryan, and Howard (North/South) lines at the same time the color code was implemented. A new tunnel was built which joined the Dan Ryan portion with the Howard segment; this became the Red line. The Lake St. line was joined with the Englewood and Jackson Park branches and became the Green line. Prior to all this, there were North/South Englewood/Howard and Jackson Park/Howard branches, and the Lake/Dan Ryan.
The Purple line is the Evanston Express/Evanston line. The Orange line has been known as such ever since it opened. It is also referred to as the Southwest or (possibly) Midway line. The Blue line also has a Douglas branch. Before the extension to O'Hare opened, it was known as the Congress/Douglas/Milwaukee line.
Now when I think about it, I do seem to recall hearing station announcements on the Orange line, having watched the operator do his stuff.
Believe me, one of the reasons I hate the M-4's so much is because of those irritating announcements.
A lot of SEPTA riders dislike them.
I agree with you on the announcements. I don't get why they have to announce the opening of the doors and there should be a double tone (ding-ding like on the Baltimore and Boston subway cars as well as the Broad Street cars, or ding-dong like we have in New York) when the doors are about to close.
But I have to say that the M4s are nicer to look at than the M3s, which were so depressing to ride on (and hot and steamy). The M4s at least have a public address system and a much smoother ride. And the interior is bright and cheery. Not so with the M3s. SEPTA does have to do something about the stuck doors, however (the R110A also had problems with stuck doors). And don't forget about air conditioning, something the M3s should have had.
One thing that might work is if they shut off the automated announcemants and announce stations and door closings manually (can that be done? - I hope so). Who knows, maybe the M3s would have been nicer had they been completely overhauled. The Regional Rail cars could certainly use an extensive overhaul, too. But I think Regional Rail should have new rolling stock (The older Penn and Reading cars are on their las legs - put 'em out to pasture!)
The operator of the trains have the ability to make annoucements on-the-fly and some make use of this. (for example during the auto show they cut over the 11th street announcement and announced it as 11th-Street Phila Auto Show). Whether the announcements can be killed or reporgrammed I don't know. However, I would think a caution would need to be emphasized: do we want the operators to be in charge? It may turn into a problem I noticed on MBTA red line where you can not understand the sometimes complacent operators.
By the way, I apologize for the double post lower in the borad, most have done something wrong...
I've noticed that too. On the new Bombardier cars on the MBTA Red Line (why doesn't SEPTA have a Red Line?) sometimes the conductor or operator makes an announcement and it's hard to understand. But usually it's the automated man's voice that makes the announcements. When the doors close, you hear a double tone. I don't know if SEPTA can fix the cars to have a tone sound when the M4 doors close.
In Phila, when colors were used (and this is going by the wayside), the Red Line was always PATCO.
My 2 cents on announcements - the Ikarus buses have voices which announce which bus it is (when it stops - a male voice) and designated stops and transfer points (a female voice). It didn't take the operators long to find ways to mute the voices. And many of us riders were just fine with that. The announcements were irritating and often, the stop announcements don't coincide with actual stops, just landmarks.
I was on my express bus one night last year and the Schuylkill was backed up. Traffic was stop and go. Every time the bus stopped for more than 20 seconds or so, the male voice would start the announcement once again: "Welcome to Route 27...service to Barren Hill...via Upper Henry Avenue...". I thought it was tied to the doors opening, but the operator told me that on some of the buses, if the bus was stopped for longer than some set number of seconds, the announcement would kick in. Real helpful!
When I was repeating this to a friend in London he told me that the Jubile line in London used four different people for their PA system (there are sound samples on the Underground site)... why not have the announcement alternate between the current announcements to create less monotony...
For example: current voice reads next stop 15th Street. Male voice follows with connecting transit information. And of course, the modified door announcement could follow. This should not be a hard thing to accomplish-- oh well, maybe in 2050 the M5s will be better. =)
When I was repeating this to a friend in London he told me that the Jubile line in London used four different people for their PA system (there are sound samples on the Underground site)... why not have the announcement alternate between the current announcements and a new voice to create less monotony...
For example: current voice reads next stop 15th Street. Male voice follows with connecting transit information. And of course, the modified door announcement could follow. This should not be a hard thing to accomplish-- oh well, maybe in 2050 the M5s will be better. =)
That's what makes Philadelphia special. They start to close the doors just before they tell you they are closing. It breaks the monotony of hearing every 20 seconds: All Stops to Frankford, Next stop Station. Doors opening, Doors Closing. Bing, bong!!"
On the Broad Street line, the doors open before the train has completely stopped. On commuter trains you can hop off while the train is still going at about 3-5 miles an hour. It's a no-nonsense system that really moves (except when pulling into City Hall station).
In New York, it's similar. On trains with the bells, the door closes between the Bing and the Bong. That's to teach those outatowners a lesson, not to be so darn trusting. :-)
My wife has been going in to work a few hours on Sunday. She finds that the trains are full of litter, and have dirty sticky floors, on that day, compared with a weekday. Why is this? Has the TA adopted the LIRR policy of not cleaning on weekends?
Trains are cleaned 24/7 but on weekends and Nights there are fewer cleaner on duty at the Termanals. Like on the IRT at Van Courtlandt there about 5 Cleaners during the weekday on the AM tour the PM have about 3. On SAT. there are 4 AM'S and 2 PM'S this is from my observations I don't Know that for a fact. I'll have to ask one of them.
Attn: All of you HO modelers of NYC transit. Be sure to check out eBay#70226141. A very interesting auction.
This evening's commute to the East Side was once again foiled by a stalled N/R at 42 St/Times Sq. Question: What exactly happens when a train "stalls"?
Many things! Subway Trains are complex machines. Their brakes lock, their doors don't close, their door indicator lights don't work properly, their motors go dead, and on, and on...
Steve or Bill From Maspeth or any of the others who work for NYCT and
post here can provide more comprehensive lists of the things that can (and often do) go wrong on a train.
One of the Scariest Things I ever saw happen on a train:
R44 A train arrives at 175th Street, and opens its left side doors, as it should. In the car I was riding in, the RIGHT SIDE doors opened as well! There is a wall (AND A THIRD RAIL) out there! One man, who was leaning against the glass partition, got terribly startled by this. Then, the right side doors wouldn't close! That train got yoked out of service right then and there.
Wayne
How long ago did that happen, Wayne?
If my memory serves me correctly, towards the end of 1997, the exact date I am not sure of. It was cold out, so it could have been Nov 27 1997, Dec 13, 1997, Dec 20, 1997 or Dec 26 1997. I'll look through my travel log book to see if I annotated it. I was on my way to 207th Street at the time. They handled this little incident quickly, professionally and without fanfare. We were on our way aboard the next train and the disabled train went no doubt straight to 207th Street Yard.
On another "A", this one car #5210, the shade covering the light over the door fell onto the head of an unsuspecting passenger who was standing against the door, reading a newspaper. This was in March 1998. It looked like a temporary, lightweight plastic shade, not the more permanent fixture type. He was quite surprised and kicked the plastic piece under the nearest seat.
Wayne
I do not know about the delay you are alluding to. It must have lasted less than 20 minutes or it would have ended up in the "Significant Events" report, which it did not.
The major cause of delays are due to door and indication problems. However, the delays that cause the longest delays (other than accidents) are those involving Brake Pipe Ruptures or Loss of power incidents. In both cases, the crew and Emergency personnel usually will end up having to sectionalize the train and move it via "other than head car operation". Sadly, crews and some emergency personnel try to overcome these incidents in a step by step fashion. This is difficult or impossible with 2-3,000 people on board. I always opted for the sure way. Bottom line the situation.
1) Sectionalize the train.
2) Find a good section.
3) Move the train into a station & discharge customers
4) Move to a yard or siding.
5) Play with the train to your heart's content
Steve, you have peaked my curosity. As a conductor I take great interest in your many detailed explanations. I was never taught how to over come brake pipe ruptures or loss of power and would be very interested in how it is done. I know these situations don't happen often, which is to the credit of you and your Inspectors. Also would you include the differences between the step by step fashion and bottom line method. I know I am asking for alot, if you feel up to the task I am sure other would as interested.
Thanks
Let's take a trainline loss of power for example. It could be caused by a failure of the lead motor propulsion control (master controller), or a ground in any car in the train. First thing the train operator will do is to try the 'Bypass'. When that doesn't work he'll usually dump the train and re-charge (why - I have no idea). If the train operator knows what he's doing he may then chech circuit breakers 1-8, GS and CB+ which will do no good. He may even look at the 'CCO' breaker. After that, he'll wait for help.
Once the TSS or RCI board the train, they'll first try to backfeed the head position from another car. Then they'll see if they can take power from the other end of the train. The next step will be to try to establish an operating position in a middle car. Failing that, they'll cut out motors, one by one, hoping to eliminate the grounded controller. If they find it, they have to then cut in the remaining good motors so the train will move. Usually, this will not work either. Now imagine trying to do this on atrain with a swinging load. More so- two guys running up and down a train cuting out things, not knowing what the other is doing. Even though they teach it this way in school, usually it ain't gonna happen.
From my P-wire days, I found that the best thing to do is to bottom line the situation right from the start. Simply speaking you do the same thing for a loss of power, loss of propulsion, or even a loss of P-wire (when we had it). Very simply you:
1) Sectionalize the train 4 and 4 of 6 and 4 (for 10 car trains).
2) Find the good section
3) BCO the bad section
4) Notify Control Center that you are ready to proceed.
Once you move into a station, discharge and move the train to a yard or spur. Once out of the way, you can take your time and find the real cause. The bottom line is to minimumize the delay and clear the road.
>>The bottom line is to minimumize the delay and clear the road.<<
Here Here, very well said!!
There was a time, when I was on the road as a Road Car Inspector, there was no such thing as a train laying down for 20 minutes. If you couldn't move it in less than that, you'd be down town writing letters at least. Unfortunately, the RCI job has been deminished.
So true. I heard of an N train laying down at Dekalb for something like 90+ minutes during the PM rush 2/1/99. About 10 days ago, I heard of an R laying down over the switches at Whitehall St. for well over an hour. This is certainly no excuse, but before GOH the trains would break down quite often, Motor Instructors, Motormen, TrainMasters (gone from the vocabulary LOL), and RCI's were sharp because they were always in practice. Today, the trains don't lay down nearly as often, and when they do, lots of personell on the road don't have a clue. Unfortunately. In my first 6 months on the road, I had a P wire failure, an energised A wire, & a defective self lapper. I've had nothing remotely resembling those incidents since.
Thank You very much Steve. In your first Paragraph you say the first thing the train operator will do is try the bypass. Are you refering to the side door interlock bypass?
[If the train operator knows what he's doing he may then chech circuit breakers
1-8, GS and CB+ which will do no good. He may even look at the 'CCO' breaker. After that, he'll
wait for help.]
Is the train operator checking these circuit breakers at his position only before help arrives? Why is it that checking these breakers will do no good?
Thank again,
C/R Michael Lyons
yes, I was referring to the side door bypass. Checking 1-8, GS and CB+ will do no good because they will only kill the motors in the car they are in. Not much help in a loss of power situation. Of course, the CCO will work if it's tripped and there is no short to trip it again. The point I was trying to make is beyond that, it's futile to try to troubleshoot the train with 2-3000 people on it. The best course of action is to get them off and get the train out of the way to resume service.
It looked to me like the crew got the doors closed on that unit manually. They wouldn't close from the cab - the chime would ring but nothing would happen. An inspector (probably an RCI) showed up soon after and he looked about the train; they then closed the train up and it left. Total delay time was about 15 minutes but I wasn't watching the clock. They were pretty quick about getting the disabled train out of there.
Wayne
All NYCT door systems are designed against a 'Single Point Failure'. In theory, this means that a single failure will not cause doors to open. By design, in order to have a door open, you need to energize two circuits at the same time. You must energize the DRU (Door unlock) and DRO (Door Open) wires. Energizing of either, alone, will cause a guard light, alerting the crew of a failure, but will not open a door. The failure you discribe would have had to be a catostrophic one, electrically speaking.
Could be. That is the one and only time I ever saw that happen.
Wayne
>.electrically speaking. <
This could have been the "pre point" at the signboard days, and a human error??
Or was it only one car that opened?
Could it be that the DRU and DRO wires for the opposite side of that car may have shorted against those same wires for the correct platform side? I personally have never seen that happen, and have to agree that it's pretty scary.
This is a test.
tag info for test:
<img src=http://www.nycsubway.org/bullets/current/a.gif>
(Diamond signs: rx.gif,nx.gif,dx.gif, 4x,5x,6x,7x.gif)
(Bway versions of 6 Ave: bb.gif, db.gif, qb.gif)
This is a test.
tag info for test:
(Diamond signs: rx.gif,nx.gif,dx.gif, 4x,5x,6x,7x.gif)
(Bway versions of 6 Ave: bb.gif, db.gif, qb.gif)
Just out of interest, what is the greatest distance that can be travelled remaining underground for the entire journey on the NY Subway? This excludes changing trains or reversing. About how far is that.
[Apologies if the answer is on an FAQ somewhere. I log on from work and only allow myself 10 minutes on this site per day, so don't always have time to explore.]
Max Roberts
The longest underground trip is on the 'A' from 207th St, in upper Manhattan to Grant Avenue in far east Brooklyn( between 20-30 miles).
The 'A' is the longest single rourte.
I't not so sure the A is the longest underground. The R is pretty long also, and its underground all the way.
It wasn't clear whether the longest underground distance was on an existing service route or one that simply has connecting tracks. If it's just continuous tunnel or subway, then 179th/Hillside to Grant Avenue/Fulton is a really long ride, as is 205th/Concourse to Grant.
From 179th/Hillside to 95th Street/Fort Hamilton (old BMT name 8-) ) is quite a stretch, too.
Fantasy routing: If there were crossovers east of Hoyt Street in Brooklyn, then any of the Washington Heights, Concourse, or Queens Boulevard routes could go through the Crosstown line to Queens Boulevard (at least for now), so there could be a Concourse/8th Avenue/Cranberry/Fulton/Crosstown/Queens Boulevard/Hillside without any outside running (the reason IND trains originally had no windshield wipers).
Now to get back to serious things.
Ed Alfonsin
There is one section-very brief where the R sees daylight! It is the bridge after 59th street Brooklyn over the LIRR Bay Ridge Branch.See this link: www.nycsubway.org/lines. Click on BMT Fourth Avenue
Due to a broken frog in the switch at 36 St. leading to the West End Line, access to the B line can only be made from the express track at 36 St. Because of this, Bay Pkwy. bound M trains are running EXPRESS from Pacific St. to 36 St. N trains are making local stops from Pacific St. to 59 St. Manhattan bound service is not affected. This change will continue till further notice.
I guess you can say "IT CROAKED"! :o)
Good thing that they caught it!
Wayne
Do I hear a rim shot?
That's pretty bad.
At least there were no slant R-40 casualties.
That further notice was not too long. That operation was in effect Wed. & Thurs. 2/24 & 2/25. Normal service resumed on Fri. 2/26 in time for the AM rush.
To all concerned:
A friend at NYCT's PR department told me yesterday -- while discussing the rather lame items at the TA Museum gift shop -- that some time ago the museum was approached by Corgi Toys Ltd. about doing a subway car model to compilment there familiar 'O' gauge series of die-cast motor coaches and interurban buses.
The car would have been something from the Unification era ala the R-1/9 series or the R-10. As it happened (and why should I be surprised?) the museum never got back to them on the deal and basically gave Corgi "the cold shoulder". Needless to say, Corgi was disappointed but did not lose sleep over the museum's in-action. Corgi went ahead and instead of doing a subway car, released a series of PCC-type trolleys in 'O' scale. Many of these models sport 'Lionel Trains' logos as they are close in scale to, and made to be used with Lionel train sets.
Just thought I'd let this be known and added to the "file" regarding the Transit Museum's failures.
Doug aka BMTman
What modifications take place when a subway car is converted into a work train? Externally, they look fairly similar except for the paint job. Do they do anything inside or under the car?
Dear fellow buffs,I just found out that there will be no "J" service over the Williamsburg Bridge for (at least) two weekends in March. Does anyone in RAPID have more information as far as replacement (bus or subway) service?thanks loads. Gerry
Complete service diversion information is provided by NYC Transit on their Web site. Just click on the !
Does the MTA ever think of doing cosmetic overhauls on its cars? Some of its newer cars like the R44s look R62s like crap. The aforementioned cars are victims of scratchitti, dents, bullet holes, firebombings and years of grime. I think the MTA needs to clean the car interiors, buff away scrathitti, reapply the flooring to the "new" cars they have pucharsed. Oh yea putting in some spare parts like replacing the missing light covers on the R44s would be nice to
There are periodic paint programs. Currently, the R-68s are having their bonnets painted. Next year floors will be replaced on the R-32s too. However, currently there is so much mechanical maintenance being done that there are just a limited number of spare cars. You really can not commit $$$$$ to a program, allocate manpower, buy material and then have it all sit idle because you can't spare the cars for the program. Cosmetic repairs are usually piggy-backed onto overhaul programs
There is no simple answer to scratchitti. The TA has been looking into it. Whole window replacement is too expensive they need a preventative answer.
They've been trying a relatively thick mylar tinting on bus windows; it seems to be working. Only the most determined scatches get through the mylar, the quick stuff doesn't. As for getting it out of the stailess steel interiors, I say just buff it until it's got a kind of grasiny look to it; that'll hide the scratches well, and clear up what's already there.
-Hank
I seem to recall the R-32s once had tiled floors; in fact, there was a double row of blue tiles down the center of the car and to the center of each set of doors. Or am I way off base?
That was pre-overhaul. The change to linolium is not the cause for the current 'soft' floors on the R-32s.
Incidently, the R-46 flooring is literally amazing. The floor installed on the R-46s guring overhaul was installed into a segment of car #941 (destroyed in the 179th St. incident) and then brnt in a furnace. If I had not witnessed the test, I'd find it hard to believe but the R-46 floor withstood 1550 degrees F for 35 minutes. At the end of the test, the surface temp. was a maximum of 151 degrees.
Feb 26.
1993: World Trade Center bombing (not really relevant to transit unless you count the damage to the PATH system. Anyone remember how long they were shut down?)
1870: the Beach Pneumatic Subway opens.
Dave
Did the WTC bombing have any effects on Subway service, in addition to PATH? It happened a year before I started commuting to NY so I don't have much knowledge of its effects.
Hey Motorman Al, my friend Alfred Ely Beach's subway opened on this day 119 years. Let's salute the man who beat Boss Tweed at his own game and blew and sucked the little car with hot air. Three cheers for Beach!!!!
I think the World Trade Center bombing is relevant to why the City Hall IRT station is closed off to tours and passengers can't ride trains around the City Hall loop.
While I think Guiliani has an ego the size of the city itself and then some, and while some of his policies are questionable, the people who reflexively lash out at everything he does, and even blame him for problems totally outside his control, bug me too.
Lots of people on this board have called him "paranoid" and "afraid of his own shadow" for the above-mentioned decisions regarding City Hall IRT. However, when you have the WTC bombing in your own city, the Tokyo subway gassing, and the various and sundry false (so far!) anthrax threats, it's not such a leap to think that a subway station under City Hall may become a terrorist target. Obviously, I'm not saying such high security is the only route -- here in Chicago, the subway is under the county courthouse and the state office building, and connects through the Pedway from these two buildings to City Hall, and there are no metal detectors or security checkpoints in City Hall. But, as much as it inconveniences us as railfans, I don't think that it's a groundless, ridiculous, or paranoid decision either.
My two cent's worth, anyway.
David: According to the ERA NYD Bulletin of April,1993 service was suspended from about 1218PM(Time of explosion) on Feb 26 until 6AM March 1,1993.
Regards,Larry,RedbirdR33
The first train of R142 cars will be delivered to NYCT for testing in July of this year. The car builder is required to deliver the first train in 18 months from when the contract was awarded.
I noticed that you said the first R-142 test train will be here in July. Will this be a actual test train? I thought the R-110 were the test trains. How long will they have to test this train before they start to actually take on real deliveries?
The R-110s were (are) prototype trains, purchased to test and evaluate different systems and technologies for possible future inclusion in major orders (such as the R-142/3). So the first trainset(s) of the R-142/3s will be true test trains, to ensure there are no "bugs" before the remainder of the order is delivered.
This will be the first production cars for testing. The R110 program was only and prototype test for the next generation of subway cars. the R142 is the real thing. I don't recall the consist configuration at this time.
HOT OFF THE PRESS. The LIRR Railroad will connect to the lower level of the existing 63rd Street tunnel. It is a $2.3 billion project to be completed in 2009. The line will connection to the LIRR mainline and Port Washington Branch in Sunnyside Yard with a station in Sunnyside. It will travel in a subway under 41st Avenue in Queens and under 63rd Street in Manhattan to the Metro-North ROW under the famous Park Avenue. The lower level at Grand Central Terminal will be used.
This project is being engineered now and will happen.
There goes the 2nd Avenue subway, or any other improvements in NYC.
When the people who live at 63 and Park Ave get active, the project will die.
I've got a feeling this is one project which will make it all the way.
There is simply too much at stake for the NIMBYs to have any power here. I mean, my God, it's the LONG ISLAND RAILROAD. They support the rich suburbs. The increase of crime, which is always a major NIMBY concern with subway expansion, won't have any affect on this project.
Plus, Penn Station is simply too crammed to handle any more traffic, and the LIRR knows this. They're desperate enough to do ANYTHING to get a second link to Manhattan, and this is as good a proposal as any.
Of course, we'll get plenty enough suburban growth from this to cause degrading conditions in the more urban areas. That's what everyone should be more concerned with. That, and the fact that the subways aren't getting the funding instead. :(
BUT ... if the TA NOW pushes for the LIRR to give up the branch to Atlantic Ave .... then subway riders would get something out of this.
Mr t__:^)
It sure won't die. Parsons Brinckerhoff is the engineering consultant and it is not conceptual anymore. The environmental impact study was done. IT IS HAPPENING, A FACT. The tunnels in Manhattan is bored and will not impact the community.
But there is no connection at Park Ave. The original line was supposed to go down Third Ave. That is where the turn-outs are.
Well, at least the East River tunnel is already in place.
A point of information:
The engineering contract includes-
1-Harold modifications to separate Amtrak
2-New interlocking at Metropolitan Ave
3-Modifications to the station at Lex-63.
4-Sunnyside Station in the yards
5-New power and signal buildings in Yard A
6-Relocation of the Amtrak Car Wash
You mean that that is all the engineering that $353 million buys these days. And, it still cost another $1.5 Billion to build just that? (If you throw in the short tunnel from Third to Park Avenue for the total $2.1 Billion project.)
I had read a book that discusses the difference in generations, using Strauss and Howe's research. There is a cycle of 4 types of generations, Civic, Adaptive, Idealist, and Reactive. These generations are shaped by many things, such as the disasters or periods of prosperity in the society during their lifestyles (Depression, World Wars, post war victory, current prosperity, etc)_ which also follow the same 80 year cycles.
We've all heard so much about the "Baby Boomers". They are the current Idealist generation, and "Generation X" is the Reactive". If you think about it, those are the wellknown characteristics of those two groups-- idealist and reactive. Well, two generations before the Boomers, the "Civic" generation born at the turnm of the century, were known as the "builders" They built all of the great institutions of society (many of which are crumbling or at least being challenged byt the younger generations now). It was they and the reactive generation before thm that built the subway. Whenever a new line was needed, the private companies built them, until the Depression slowed things down.
To make a long story short, the problem is with the Adaptive generation between the builders and boomers. -Those now between 55 and 70-- the ones who have been working the longest and now have moved up to the highest levels of power.-- most of your CEO's, govt. officials. They grew up with the system their parents the "builders" built, and watched it begin to crumble decades ago. As the book puts it "The builders had created a concrete world, and the [generation after them] had been raised to faithfully serve in that world. Then, halfway through their careers, that world changed". So they are resistant to change. It's like my parents, who are in this group, and their reluctance to get into computers. Many of them are almost afraid of them. (My parents decided to get one this year, but after years of thinking about it, and having to use them at work).
So the book says "When we look back on the 90's, we will all remember with anger the level of policy gridlock that gripped the nation. Who was in power? [the book calls them] --the silents". They will be remembered as "a filibustering bunch of indecisive blockers".
Doesn't this explain everything that is going on in the subways? When I first read this, the first thing that came to mind was Secon Av, and all the other proposals. When I see grand ideas like the RPA, MESA, ERC, and 42nd St trolley came, and then fasde out of sight, it all rings so true.
The idealist boomers will try to push on with the projects, but they will be faced with alot of new problems. According to the cycle, the next crisis era will begin shortly, pehaps financial, or perhaps political (the world scene/terrorism). Out of this will come the generation now being born, the next Civics (like their Builder great-great grandparents.
It seems this group is the hope of future construction. Maybe then we'll see 2nd Avenue.
This sounds like an incridible book. Could you please post the title/author?
But things have gotten built, outside New York City.
I think its a liberal thing. Hospitals got built. Non-profit health and social service employment rose from 300,000 to 480,000 in 15 years. That's what the people who took power wanted to spend things on. There has been little local money left for anything else. The 2nd Avenue subway would have been built if Lindsay didn't bankrupt the city.
Or its a sunbelt/suburban thing. State and federal money has been diverted to the places where the influence lies. Cities are seen as poor places inhabited by Blacks and Latinos. New York City is about average in wealth and has all kinds of people, but it is unusual.
As I said, the decision about the 2nd Avenue subway and other subway improvements is made any time a decision is made to spend money somewhere else. Like the LIRR to GCT connection, the special tax to pay for the rich hospitals, the big highway spending approved in the last federal transport bill, the big dig in Boston, etc. etc.
Yeah, all of these things are factors. I didn't mean to make it sould like that was THE reason, but the generational impact is definitely a factor.
Another one is just the fact that it's a big city that develops big bureaucracies, so certain things are going to be slower here than elsewhere. I used the think this when I looked at how the Daily News took so long to get color presses, and then after a few months they were down again, to this day. Our businesses and governments (especially the TA) are full of fat CEO's who drain all the money, even while cutting or letting services slide. Yet the generational mindset of those older executives does come to play in it as well. Just look at all the study groups, I forgot to mention, as well as the opposition, etc, that projects get lost in. (think of the 42nd St trolley, for example)
To answer Henry's question, I got all this from a Christian book entitled Death of the Church, by Mike Regele, of a Christian marketing and information organization called Percept Group, Inc. of Costa Mesa, CA.
The subject of the book was the generational paradigm shift I discussed as it relates to the Church, which I'm sure everyone is aware, has a lot of opposition to change, and also there is alot of younger-generation bashing by conservatives. It really is a great and powerful book. The church really does need to read it, but it went largely underexposed.
Those are interesting observations, and thanks for posting them, but I have two comments (one general and one specific to the subway).
On a general basis, I find it difficult to accept that people can be neatly slotted into generation pigeonholes. Take the oft-referenced baby boom generation as an example. Under the conventional view, a person born in 1948 is in the same generation - and therefore should have relatively similar life experiences and viewpoints - as a person born in 1964. I find this similarity an illusion. The person born in 1948 grew up right in the middle of the whole 1960s counterculture - student activism, the hippies, Woodstock, women's liberation, civil rights etc. If he was male, he might have fought in Vietnam or had to try avoiding the draft. Finally, he or she entered the job market at a time of relatively low competition for jobs, particularly those held by college graduates. In contrast, the person born in 1964 had little if any personal experience of the major events cited above, and if a college graduate entered the job market when there was much stronger competition. My point is that two people ostensibly from the same generation had many different experiences. This surely holds true for other generations as well, considering the time they span. I therefore don't see how sweeping generalizations ("civic, adaptive, idealist and reactive") are justified.
WIth reference to the subway, the main period of expansion spanned nearly 35 years from the opening of the IRT in 1904 to the completion of the IND in the late 1930s. Even longer, if you add in the planning and construction that preceded the IRT's opening. So even if we are to assume that generations are a valid concept, the subway's development extended through two or three generations.
Damn straight about that 1948 vs. 1964 stuff Peter. The economics of the back end of the baby boom are entirely different (and worse) than the front end. People born 1958-64 have had lower earnings and home ownership rates at comparable ages than those who came before or those who came after. Then again, no one ever asked me to kill anyone.
But there is a point. One reason New York hasn't built anything is because it hasn't had the money. Now is the time to make demands. Long Island really needs that access to GCT. And the city really needs the 2nd Avenue, a link to the airport, and a subway replacement for the Manhattan Bridge.
It's just a general category. Obviously, people at the beginning of the generation are going to be closer to the prior generation than those at the end, who are going to be more like the next generation. But the similarities are there, and the generation was so named because that was the beginning of the "boom" of childbirths following the wars.
Pete,
The original book is called "Generations", the authors Strauss and Howe. You are right on target citing the lack of similarity between people born in 1948 and 1964. Here is how the book divides the generations:
1982 - ???? Millennial (civic) - probably until about 2003
1961 - 1981 Thirteeners (reactive)
1943 - 1960 Boomers (idealist)
1925 - 1942 Silent (adaptive)
1901 - 1924 GI (civic)
1883 - 1900 Lost (reactive)
The complete cycle goes back to Elizabethan England!
You'll find the book enlightening and quite entertaining.
Bob Sklar
[The original book is called "Generations", the authors Strauss and Howe. You are right on target citing the lack of similarity between people born in 1948 and 1964. Here is how the book divides the generations:
1982 - ???? Millennial (civic) - probably until about 2003
1961 - 1981 Thirteeners (reactive)
1943 - 1960 Boomers (idealist)
1925 - 1942 Silent (adaptive)
1901 - 1924 GI (civic)
1883 - 1900 Lost (reactive)]
If we accept these birth-year categories, and the civic-adaptive-idealist-reactive cycles, something intersting arises with respect to the subway. For the most part, the people behind the construction of the New York subway were *not* from a "civic" generation. If you take an average of 20 years per generation, and assume that the political and business leaders who spearheaded the system's construction were mainly in the 40 to 60 age range, then the development of the original IRT just after the start of the 20th century was mainly the responsibility of "idealists" and "adaptives." The "civics" were either elderly or small children at the time. Even by the time the last major expansion came along, the building of the IND in the 1930s, the "civics" of the 1901-1924 generation weren't only enough to hold many postitions of power or influence.
[These observations don't represent my personal viewpoint. As far as I'm concerned, generational talk is a lot of hot air. There undoubtedly are many other reasons why subway expansion largely ended before 1940.]
(Generational thing is hot air). However, I do believe that economic and social conditions during one's opinion forming years (late youth, early adulthood) do have an effect on one's outlook, and that is something everyone has in common.
The data show that those who grew up in the Depression saved like squirrels. The so called "Silent Generation" grew up when fewer people owned their own businesses and most got steady paychecks from unions/corporations. They never saved a dime. Same with the early baby boomers, who grew up in affluence. Theorist said that when they reached the prime earning years -- 40s and 50s -- their savings rate would rise. Instead it went negative.
I think of my "generation" as those who reached age 18 from 1974 (post Vietnam) to 1982 (pre-boom). Call it the "Gas Lines" generation. Everyone I know saves like squirrels too, and always expects to laid off from their job. Those coming up now feel free to demand far more money than we are already earning, and spend it all.
Frankly, I'm stunned by how much more prosperous the country is than it was when I was growing up, despite the naysayers. From top of the income distribution to the bottom, life is changing for the better.
Hopefully the 2nd Avenue subway will be built, so the quality of subway travel will also improve. NYC needs to improve the quality of life to keep up.
[Generational thing is hot air). However, I do believe that economic and social conditions during one's opinion forming years (late youth, early adulthood) do have an effect on one's outlook, and that is something everyone has in common.]
As long as were talking generations ... it could be that different experiences in early life may indeed have an effect on future subway development. Consider that the people from the early years of the baby boom generation grew up at a time when government was perceived as a Bad Thing. Many of them were caught up in the Vietnam morass and soon thereafter had their faith in the American system sorely tested by Watergate. More specifically to New York, they saw how the city's bungling led to the fiscal crisis in the middle 1970s, not to mention the subway's precipitous decline in the same period.
All in all, it's not surprising that the people in this half-generation (let's say those born between 1946 and 1955) have a rather jaundiced view of government. Call it knee-jerk liberatarianism if you will :-) What that means is that they aren't likely to be in favor of major subway projects, which after all are government rather than private-sector deals. The fact that this group is now at the peak of its power and influence means that we probably won't see any heavy equipment digging up Second Avenue anytime soon.
But there is hope on the horizon. Those of us from the second half of the baby boom generation (born 1956 through 1964) are not likely to view government as such a bad thing. We didn't personally experience Vietnam and probably weren't old enough to fully understand Watergate. As far as the subway is concerned, we remember its slow improvement during the 1980s better than its earlier decline. It might well be that as we gain in power and influence, support for subway expansion will increase. And given today's trend toward early retirement, the antigovernment 1946-1955 group will be passing out of power a lot sooner than might be expected.
Don't get me wrong, I still stand behind my view that subway expansion and stagnation is the product of many factors, most of them unrelated to the question of what generation's in power. But that isn't to say that generational change has no effect at all.
Pete,
Here are a few more generations, beginning with the earliest one I posted:
1883 - 1900 Lost (reactive)
1860 - 1882 Missionary (idealist)
1843 - 1859 Progressive (adaptive)
1823 - 1842 Gilded (reactive)
1792 - 1822 (name forgotten) (idealist)
Note the absence of a civic generation between Gilded and Progressive. Without going into excessive detail, the book explains this as a result of the Civil War crisis occurring early and being poorly resolved. (It has often been referred to as a war which nobody won). This may affect your last post.
Bob Sklar
[Here are a few more generations, beginning with the earliest one I posted:
1883 - 1900 Lost (reactive)
1860 - 1882 Missionary (idealist)
1843 - 1859 Progressive (adaptive)
1823 - 1842 Gilded (reactive)
1792 - 1822 (name forgotten) (idealist)
Note the absence of a civic generation between Gilded and Progressive. Without going into excessive detail, the book explains this as a result of the Civil War crisis occurring early and being poorly resolved. (It has often been referred to as a war which nobody won).]
All of which supports what I said earlier, that the expansion of the New York subway - and the lack of expansion as well - cannot be attributed to the presence or absence of the "civic" generation even though they're supposed to be the master builders (note that the so-called Master Builder, Robert Moses, was a "reactive.") "Adaptives" and "idealists" were behind the development of the original IRT and BRT/BMT while "reactives" were the prime movers behind the IND. And also note that the 30 or so years following World War II were when the 1901-1924 GI "civic" generation was at the height of its powers; for the most part, there was little subway expansion during this era.
Would the "adaptives" and the "idealists" have been the ones to build the subway if it wasn't for the blizzard of 1888 giving them the impetus and popular backing to do so?
The debate over generations is similar to the one about nurture versus nature -- how much of behavior is inbred and how much is attatch to external forces. Right now most people in power in New York City and State have strong memories of the budget screw-ups of the 1960s and 70s, and are hesitant to pull the trigger on a big ticket item like the Second Ave. subway.
Keep the economy stable for a few more years and get the city and state's bond ratings to the point that you can knock a few hundred million in interest payments off the cost of a new line, and then maybe something will get done.
Also, all the impact studies (environmental, community, etc) and other stages that give projects so much time to fall through the cracks came about, because i the past, people just built things regardless of it's impact, on either neigborhoods or wildlife/the environment (Just think of Moses), and now in today's PC backlash, people won't have it any more. So for this, it is much harder to build things. I'm sure this plays into the generational scene as well, it's just that the theories are very general, and nothing's exact, as everyone has shown. But I just thought it was an interesting idea that people could consider.
Amen! I read that book (Generations) when it first came out in 1991, right after Operation Desert Storm (mentioned within the book). I thought then and still think it to be a work of exceptional insight. I only wish the authors would have expanded their research to include other nations in the modern world.
Bob Sklar
That's true. I wondered how the cycles in the other countries compared. Sometimes we get a little centered on ourselves.
Do trains ever run with a mixed consist (different car types on the same train)? Is this physically possible?
Mike
I have seen mixed consists of:
R38 with R32 ("A" and "C")
R38 with R32GE ("A")
R40M with R42 (Eastern Div.)
R33WF with R36 (#7 line all the time)
R26/28 with R29 (#5 line)
It's physically possible to mate Slant R40 with R40M or R42 but it is not practiced.
Wayne
The Chicago blue line is run with mixed consists all of the time.
The Budd (2200 series) cars have blinker doors that open inward forming two side by side doors that are not wide enough to get a wheel chair through. They are allways operated in train sets with a least one or more married pairs of Boeing-Vertol (2400 series) cars with sliding doors. Usually the mix of car pairs is about 50-50.
Believe it or not, last summer, on June 15 to be exact, I saw a solid 8-car train of 2200s as it was heading for the Loop out of O'Hare. I did a double-take on that one, as there is usually at least one set of cars with sliding doors included with each train. Still, it was nice to see a solid train.
In New York, all cars from the R-10s through the R-42s were compatible with one another, including the R-11s after they were rebuilt under contract R-34. Mixed consists were commonplace on the IRT prior to GOH; on the IND and BMT lines, it was done during the early 70s for a time. The R-10s rarely ran in mixed consists; so far, no one has reported having seen this yet.
Nowadays, the trend is to run solid trains for the most part, except for what Wayne alluded to.
I rode today and the red line and the green line have mixed fleets but no 2200's The Brown and the orange and yellow all had new equipment built for OPTO
The red on the way home was interesting the cab door was blocked open against the storm door with a foot stop. From the edge of the cab a yelow betlt was extended out across the seat across the aisel from the cab then up to a latch about head high on the cab.. It was marked in black letters Keep out crew area.
On the door was a mount for a radio telephone type hand set with a long cord that the operator used to make announcements from the opposite side of the car and since the red line has mostly center platforms on the north end he used it a lot. The operator on the Ravenswood was much more combfortable. By the way the glass on the left side of the cab on the brown and yellow train that I rode is clear to the passenger compartment and the front of the train so while you can't sit up there you can still see out of the front of the train.
You must be referring to the 3200s with the full-width cabs. Yes, you can see through the front windows. My aunt told me all about the front being roped off, so to speak, on other cars.
The 2200s are on the Blue line.
NYCTA passenger equipment except for R44-46 are SMEE(Self-lapping mechanical electrical equipment) meaning just about every car can operate together since propulsion and braking are similar.
Technically, R-44 and R-46 are SMEE. The R-46 brakes are the same as the R-68 brake system except that the R-46 has an electric 'Snow Brake'. The R-44 is a 'bastard' system because it's the only one that has no feed valve so BP pressure is not regulated at 110 PSI, but they still operate like SMEE brakes. The real problem with MUing R-46s with other cars is a different mechanical and a different electric coupler....
In my opinion when Manhattan Bridge reopen in 2001
should run express from WTC to Jamaica Center All time.
should run express from 179st to Queen Plaza than local to Bergen St than express to Church Ave both way than local to Coney Island Rush Hour only. Midday run local from Bergen St to Church Ave both way. Late night from Coney Island to 57st 6 Av from 9pm to 6am.
should run from Court Sq to Church Ave Rush Hour only and midday to Smith-9st.
should run express from Manhattan Bridge to 57st than local to Astora.
if they change the color to gold, they should run express from Brighton Beach to 57st,than local thought 63st than to 179st. Late night from 57st to 179st Queens.
should run from King Highway to 57st 6 Av local from 6am to 9pm.
You like those bullets! Thanks for using 'em.
There's a set from 1967 as well: here's a sample:
<img src=http://www.nycsubway.org/bullets/67/qj67.gif>
Wayne [mrSlantR40#4412]
I was just checking to see it work and i didn't get the "D".
The A, D, and 2 haven't changed since 1967; they can be found under "current". The N is the same color but the letter was white in 1967 and is black (on most cars) now.
Wayne
Wayne, you need an 'EE'
-Hank
It's out there: http://www.nycsubway.org/bullets/67/ee67.gif
along with the rest of the colorful 1967-1968 bullets.
Wayne
Here the list that MTA should make new skip stop from 242st to 96st
should skip stop starting at 242st,231st,215st,Dyckmanst,181st,168st,145st,137st,116st,103st than 96st local to south ferry.
should skip stop starting at 238st,225st,207st,191st,181st,168st,157st,137st,125st,110st than 96st local to south ferry.
Both trains stop at 181st,168st,and 137st. I think this is a better service and save time. That my opinion. What do you think??
Extending the length of the skip-stop service to 96th St. would make it more useful, certainly. I don't know why 137th St. should be all-stop though. Just because it is the southern limit of skip-stop today? All-stop stations should be ones with crossovers, so those riding locally can catch a train back to the station they missed. So only one train should stop at 137th St., but both should stop at 116th St. That doesn't mean every station with a crossover needs to be all-stop. Having three all-stop stations in a row (as they have now with 168th, 181st, and 191st) is truly foolish.
137st is the location of City College, and is heavily used. Many students come to the school from several areas of the city, so it makes sense for an all-stop there. 231st also should remain an all-stop, as you change for the Bx7, Bx10, and Bx20 up to Riverdale Ave. Trust me, that's one hill you DON'T want to climb.
-Hank
They all Must stop at 191 St because of the Evivators and don't want poeple being traped at that station and it is the lowest section underground.
That doesn't make sense. They have to stop because of the elevators? 'Trapped' people can always get on the next train that stops there, and trains don't stop there if the elevators are out, which seems to be quite a frequent occurance at 168, 181, and 191; despite the presence of elevator operators at 168 and the recent elevator overhaul there. That's like standing on the top floor of a building because the train stops in the basement. More likely the reason is ridership; what's above ground there?
-Hank
Hank that only what a TSS tolled me. There were lots of complaints from the Community over No.1 trains Bypassing. I personally don't agree with it. I hate 191 St. When I worked THE 3:00 PM to 11:00 PM I always had someone who would throw a glass bottle at my cab. Always trouble at that stop if your a PM man. Am AM's know. But every line has it problem stations. Not every day but once a week. But other Motorman had the same storys at other station so 191 St is probably just my bad luck stop.
They should re-build 96th, as origninally planned, and run locals from 137th and expresses from 242nd. At rush hours, the expresses would bypass stations from 96th to 137th.
It could be for crowd control purposes, and people probably complained about long waits for the elevators. If one train skips a given station, then in theory the next one has twice as many people getting off. This means more people have to bypass the elevator. People are always in a hurry in the subway. It's the nature of the business.
The MTA should make skip stop on # 4 and new line #10. Here my opinion
should skip stop starting at Woodlawn, Bedford Pk Blvd, Fordham Rd, Burnside Ave, Mt Eden Av, 167st, 161st yankees stadium than 149st skip 138st than 125st go express downtown.
should skip stop at Mosholu Pkwy, Kingbridge Rd, 183st, Burnside Ave, 176st, 170st, 161st yankees stadium than 149st skip 138st than 125st go express downtown
Both trains stop at Burnside Ave, 161st yankees stadium and 149st.
Save time and better service. I hope MTA read this
How did you make them signs?
I believe that they are available on the MTA website.
Yeah, it's on http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/images/, but only existing routes!
I too would like to know where he got that "10" from, and what else they have.
Question's answered: it's at http://www.nycsubway.org/bullets/current/
There's also one for 1967! (See 1/9 post, below)
Well If they did a Skip Stop Both trains would stop at Bedford Park.
Do you think that the Chrystie extension will be open again? Bring back the K......
I don't think that the KK met ridership expectations back in its day and it still might not. There were many rush hour trains back then that actually had seats on them when I rode it. The travel pattens might still be low now, since the connecting traffic between both the 6th avenue lines and the 14th street line (L) and F and the Nassau line is not at crush levels.
About the only way the K would work is if they built a connection just past Broadway Junction that allowed the K access to the A express tracks from East New York to Euclid Ave.
An express in peak rush hour direction (using the express track on Broadway in Brooklyn) from either the Rockaways or Lefferts that bypassed downtown Brooklyn and much of lower Manhattan would definitely attract riders headed for the midtown area. I'm sure if they found a place to ramp the J/Z down into the new underground line past 121st St, they could find a place to ramp a connection from the Broadway El down to the A.
But the transfer at Essex is at crush level, and it looks pretty dangerous. Even on weekends, there are alot of people using both connections. The L is full of people, and they are not all coming from 14th St. When the bridge work is finished, it is time to give this forsaken part of the system the same access to midtown that everyone else has (Except for the G, but there's nothing they can do for that line now, with no existing connection). ESPECIALLY, when they start closing down the L more and more to start working on the new signal system. (I don't see how they could have closed it down all those times for the last decade and never think of sending the M into Manhattan instead of just forcing everyone to use shuttle buses. But it shows how they treat this area)
That connection could have been put to better use, the way things have turned out with the Manhattan Bridge, by connecting it to the Nassas St. line in the other direction.
Steve B writes, "That connection could have been put to better use, the way things have turned out with the Manhattan Bridge, by
connecting it to the Nassau St. line in the other direction." The City's plan for Chrystie (which survived into early TA days) was to have a connection from Second Avenue and Houston into Nassau so the alternate route to Canal, Chambers, Broad, and Montague Street Tunnel would be available. The old Culver-Nassau locals could have become Second Avenue locals! Even a combining of Culver with Washington Heights local service could have made sense and would not have had the effect of destroying the Broadway express service the way the TA finally did it.
Unfortunately, in one of its typical no-brain decisions, the TA eliminated that construction from the connection. I don't know if it could be added in now. With the interruption of Williamsburg Bridge service, there might be some time to get a good start on it, at least on the BMT end.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
1: Stay the same
2: " " " " " " "
3: Run to South Ferry on Weekends
4: Run to New Lots on weekends. Express stops from 125 to Woodlawn
5: Run express between Gun Hill Rd and E.180th (238 St trains)
6: Bring in the 8 train express to E.17.....I mean Cross Bronx Expressway Station. (Change the name)
7: Run express on summer weekends during Mets home games.
9: Run express from 96-137 and then from Dyckman to 242
That wouldn't be the Cross Bronx the new name would be Hugh Grant Circle
So do you believe that they will rename it soon because I look on the subway map and there is no E.177 St
East 177th Street is the technical name for the service roads of the Cross Bronx Expressway, east of Westchester Avenue.
Wayne
[East 177th Street is the technical name for the service roads of the Cross Bronx Expressway, east of Westchester Avenue.]
I don't think so. Street signs on the service roads all read "Cross Bronx Expressway". On the other hand, there is at least one apartment building, maybe two, along the south service road still bearing a sign which reads "xxxx East 177th Street" (where xxxx represents the house number, which I forget). I'm sure mail gets there if it is addressed to that number on either the Corss Bronx or E. 177th. Which the Post
Office considers the technically correct address, I'm not sure.
I agree that "Grant Circle" would be a better name for the station. They are best off leaving off the "Hugh", at least for the time being, or people will think it was named for the actor!
So what would operate local from 125 to Woodlawn if the 4 runs express? Would there be both 4 express and 4 local sevice in the Bronx? Also, I think the 2 should run express in the Bronx, because it is such a long route and the 5 is much shorter. And I think calling the 7 express the 10 would help clear up confusion between the express and local services (especially if you're from out of town and you're headed to see the Mets).
I think that would make it more confusing. The express stops at Willets Point also. You get a lot more out-of-towners for the US Open then you do for the Mets, and telling them to take the 10 may confuse them for the trip back, when the 10 wouldn't be running. Since the 7 runs both ways, all times, no matter what...
Or just bring back the blue arrows.
-Hank
Ah, yes the Blue Arrows. I still remember those signs on the 42nd St. mezzanine directing customers to the 41st St. passageway. After the World's Fair, the signs were rephrased, "Follow the blue arrow to Flushing trains and Shea Stadium."
I think one reason the #5 is the express run in the Bronx is that #5's from Dyre Avenue do not have to cross in front of the #2's from White Plains. The #2's make a move through the East 180th Yard(called the valley) so as not to plug #5's. (This by the way is the only legal move of a road passenger train through any yard in the system) Of course in the afternoon rush it's a whole different ball of wax when all #5's and 2's cross each other at the east. I think this is done only out of continuity with the morning rush. It makes sense.
[The #2's make a move through the East 180th Yard(called the valley) so as not to plug #5's. (This by the way is the only legal move of a road passenger train through any yard in the system)]
What about the N to Stilwell Avenue? They go through the Coney Island Yard.
The N line tracks do not physically go through Coney Island Yard. These are considered mainline tracks. Anything that branhs off of these tracks is considered a lead (such as the track just south of 86th Street and and thrack that comes in under the highway referred to as the "Delta"track.
The #2 line actually takes the "valley". Because this one track runs through the yard it is considered a yard track. Bulletin states this is the only legal place where a road (passenger train) may run through a yard. Although it's been done numerous times by some motormen. Woops!
Of course, with current track configurations at 180th (and excepting the yard track currently used), making the 2 trains expresses and the 5 trains locals (in the Bronx) does seem like a good idea. The evening rush would be much easier to handle after the 5 trains no longer had to cross the 2 tracks on their way towards Dyre Ave.
And then there's the simple fact that the 2 is currently the longest IRT line in the system: a line much longer than the 5.
Looking at a timetable for the current pick at about 0730....
#2 White Plains to Flatbush....1 hour 37 minutes (740 White Plains)
#5 238st to Flatbush...........1 hour 24 minutes (732 Super)
#5 Dyre to Flatbush............1 hour 28 minutes (745 Dyre)
Just some facts to digest.
How did you get to see the A Division pick book? Its not availible at the Termenals yet. How can the No.5 out of 238 St be faster then the No. 5 out of Dyre. The running time from E 180 to E 238 is 12 Mins. The running time from Dyre to 11 Mins.
Sorry David Foster R26, I had the two #5 trains flip flopped. Thanks for the correction. And by the way, I did not look at the pick book, I looked at a timetable.
Why did the 2 and 3 trains switch terminals? Was it for yard access like the N and R?
I don't get your Question explain yourself more.
For many years, the 2 terminated at New Lots Avenue and the 3 terminated Flatbush change. Beginning in 1995 (not quite sure of this date), the trains swap Brooklyn terminal. The old route of the 2 did give it access to the Bronx yards as well as the Linden Yard while the 3 only had the small Lenox yard. I believe the changes were made for service reliability reasons and to better balance the running times of both runs.
Ok I know that did't start in 1995 maybe somewhere in the late 1980's. Because I worked the No.2 in 1992 And that was 2 trips to Flatbush. Your right on why they changed the services. The No.3 Line was too short from 148 St to Flatbush and only having Lenox Yard or send light trains to Liviona Yard. Now the No.3 can stay in service to New Lots then get layed up. The No.2 was too long from E 241 to New Lots and had two big yards E 239 St and Liviona. So it made sents to switch Termanals. But the No.2 is still the longest route on the IRT divison.
The 2 and 3 trains switch terminals around 1985 or 1987. Im not exactly sure. I know because I was little and I remember taking the 2 from Utica to Saratoga during summer camp.
It was spring of '83. I walked up to the Junction on the Sunday it went into effect to look at it, and I moved away from there that summer (Winding up near the 3 again on Eastern Pkwy!)
Well, there are many 'special' runs on both lines to/from both terminals during the rush, such as 5 and 2 trains to New Lots or Utica Aves. I don't recall ever seeing a 3 or 4 labeled for Flatbush, though. There was a time when 3 of the 4 lines terminated at both locations.
-HAnk
Ok there are specal runs In Brooklyn. Your right about the No.3 and No.4 lines none go to Flatbush. Heres how it Goes.
No.2 Line During rush Hour and so early Sat. some No.2 trains go in service at New Lots about 4 or 5 trains.
No.4 some rush Hour train from New Lots PM rush about 2 trains go to New Lots. One train in the AM Rush goes to Bowling Green.
No.5 Line thats all confuing. Some trains come from New Lots or go Light to Utica and then go in service oppisate on PM's. Rush Hours most No.5 go to Flatbush. Some like my old run have a light train to Bowling Green then go in service Uptown. In the Bronx Some go to Dyre Ave or E 238 St or E 180 St.
The reason the 2 and 5 trains run to New Lots or Utica is so that they can lay up in Livonia Yard until the PM rush, the PM rush is you see the 5 trains bypassing stations from New Lots to Utica. The 2 however make stops from New Lots to Utica.
The reason the 2/5 and 3/4 switched terminals was not because of the yard, but because of the barn. There is no barn at Lenox. Just a yard. This gave direct access for each line to a barn.
Do anybody know if they will overhaul trains and put electronic signs on the side windows? I would love to see that on the R62's,R68, and R42's.
1. Where is Chambers/Hudson Term?
2. Why was it closed down?
As far as the TA is concerned, the "Chambers St. Hudson Terminal" Station was simply renamed "Chambers St. World Trade Center" when the WTC opened. PATH moved into the basement of the WTC. PATH's Hudson Terminal (aka H&M) was closed when the WTC was opened.
I sometimes refer to the two stations as "Chambers Street-WTC" for the "C" and "E" trains and "Chambers Street-H&M" for the "A". It's almost like they are two separate stations within the same complex. They look a bit different from each other; even the tile bands are different shades of purple.
There used to be captions reading "H AND M" on the wall, with no mention of Chambers. One station has them covered up, the other replaced them with "CHAMBERS".
I wonder when they're going to put up the GIANT EYE there.
I'll find out how they're making out today.
Wayne
Also please remember that Hudson Terminal was a dear departed office building built on top of the H&M station.
That one I never got to see; just the old PATH station, and that was on Saturday, December 27, 1969. What a loop! I also rode a K-type out of there on February 17, 1970.
Oh - about the giant eye - it's not assembled yet. It's behind a blue plywood partition near the Park Place entrance. We peeked in through a keyhole yesterday morning and saw it lying there.
Wayne
In a way, you're right - they are two separate stations. Had it not been for the Depression, the current local terminal tracks would have continued onto Court St. in Brooklyn.
This is a very immature question that came up between my drinking buddies and I, however I find it very interesting and was too afraid to try, Now that I have this out of the way, please don't scroll down if you are easily offended!
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If you urinate directly on the third rail, can you be hurt?
Told you So!
YES! You can be KILLED by doing that. The urine stream is a good conductor of electricity. Be glad you didn't try it!
There is an old story about a motorman on a third rail powered interurban line (early in the century. He has to go, badly!! His conductor advised patience and preplanning. Finally, the young man could stand it no longer, stopped the car and disappeared into the darkness. He let go a stream, and BANG!!!!! His conductor and passengers found him halfway across the nearby field, badly burned.
The moral, hold it, but if you have to go, don't aim at the third rail.
Nah, most likely it won't hurt a bit. Oh, you'll be dead enough; but it'll be over so soon that it probably won't hurt.
There was actually a case of this some years ago at one of the surface-level stations (Kedzie?) on CTA's Ravenswood line -- though it's not clear whether the late-lamented actually did urinate on the third rail, or simply came into contact with it while trespassing on the right-of-way for purposes of relieving himself.
I read that story. Apparently, the family filed suit against the CTA, despite the obvious carelessness and disregard for warnings and fences. As I understood it, the guy had to climb 2 fences and disregarded several warning signs. The family (who I guess weren't there when the guy was homeless) decided the CTA must've been negligent.
-Hank
Where did you hear that the guy was homeless? (This is an example of how people add stuff to stories to fit their preconceptions.) He was going home drunk (multiple times the .10 BAC limit, IIRC) from a party at work when he entered onto the right of way to urinate. My understanding -- and the reason CTA lost -- is that he DIDN'T have to hop the fence to get onto the right of way, since the ROW is open where it crosses the streets. Yes, there are warning and "do not enter" signs where the ROW crosses the street, but they are in English only, and the deceased was a recently-immigrated Korean.
As I've pointed out more than once on this board, CTA lost, more than the man's widow won, because 1) a ROW open to drunken revelers is also open to innocent children (there but for the grace of God, etc.), and 2) there are gates that cut off the ROW and open for trains where another CTA line runs at grade through an upper-class suburb, but CTA said it would be too expensive to put the same gates on the Ravenswood line, through immigrant neighborhoods.
[If you urinate directly on the third rail, can you be hurt?]
Electrocution would occur only if there is an uninterrupted stream from the "urinator" to the third rail. I would suspect that given the distance involved, the stream would in fact not be uninterrupted ... while this theory could be verified by watching skells relieve themselves, I will leave it up to persons more dedicated than I am :-)
Given the shorter distances involved, a woman would probably be at significantly greater risk. I can recall a scene from the movie _Caligula_, in which a woman chose a rather imaginative way to defile a corpse; to the best of my recollection, there was indeed an uninterrupted stream.
In the New Yotk Times Saturday February 27, Page 4, is a wonderful article about a subway line that runs under the mean streets of Calcutta, India. It's clean, no rats, no food allowed on the stations and on the trains.
No Robberys in the past 18 months, no ads on the trains.
The people are polite, and no pushes anyone.
When you good folks of subtalk read this article, your thoughts are most welcome as always.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
I have read here a good many times that the MTA is planning to curtail 63rd Street thru service on the weekends. As a Greenpoint person, I say "we had to give up G service for this?" That is a real screw job if there ever was one.
Here's what needs to be done:
G - new stop at Ash St. (near the water as that area of Greenpoint is being developed rapidly); new stop at Jackson to connect with the 7; scrap 21st/Van Alst or else move it closer to Hunter's Point for a connection with the 7; extend hours to Queens Plaza and beyond until midnight. Also, Move the Broadway Station to tie into the J, M, Z.
M-Branch off and use the LIRR ROW to create a Super Express to LIC where one could change for the G or 7 (my question is will the G get enough business out of this? Well, then maybe tie the M into the G to Queens Plaza or Court Square)
J- Revive the 6th Avenue/Broadway service (old K train)
Richer Queens residents aren't the only ones who use mass transit, you know. Service should strike a medium and service EVERYBODY, which I don't see happening with the advent of the 63rd St. connection.
Right, Josh?
No, that idea of them cutting weekend 63rd St service on the other threads was just hypothetical. They probably won't do that. What they could do for the G on weekends is terminate it at Queens Plaza again, like they always used to, because D5 will be a layup again when the work is finished, and this won't interfere with the connection, which is past there. They better do this, because a couple of weeks ago, I tried to enter at Court Sq. but all those entrances are closed, so I guess the only entrance was the E/F entrance. I would have had to walk blocks for that, and then walk back through the long passage. (In a hurry, I wound up catching a cab to the next station). So not only do you have to walk through that passage to transfer to anything, but it's also the only way out. I guess they really are screwing G riders over.
As for your other idas, it is much easier to move elevated stations for closer connections than it is to move underground stations
[Richer Queens residents aren't the only ones who use mass transit, you know. Service should strike a medium and service EVERYBODY, which I don't see happening with the advent of the 63rd St. connection.
Right, Josh?]
Right but it should still be based on demand and clearly there's no demand for the G even though Greenpoint (and Williamsburgh) are kick-butt neighborhoods.
Greenpoint person has big aspirations with new stations which is always a plus, but guess what? The G line is a step child because it does not run into the city. It seems that precedent has been set by terminating The G's at Court Square making everyone traipse over to 23rd -Ely. Once again, operationally, why plug mainline trains(E/F/R) with something of a shuttle(G)relaying at Queens Plaza when the same connection can be made at Court Square/23rd-Ely?
Sir:
I digress. my plans are not ambitious, but making use of existing infrasturctures. As for the termination question, here are three good reasons:
1) The corridor is unsafe
2) It invariably lengthens the trip because one is always missing a train because of the longer walk
3) It denies us service to the BMT.
Its unfair, unjust and should be eliminated - Immediately
I only wanted you to look at it in an operational scenario. I agree it makes it a pain in the behind for everyone to have to walk what seems like a mile to make a connection(and then just miss it many a time).
I don't really know about the safety issue.
And while it is a heavily used line during the day it does not reach the quantity that the trains on the Queens Boulevard corridor carry.
I'm not saying your suggestions are bad, i'm just saying that they are not on the high priority list. Alleviation of traffic (and I emphasize this) on the Queens Boulevard corridor is top priority.
If you think your service rates low how do you think the people on the Dyre Av line feel during a couple of hours on the midnight tour.....headway is 48 minutes. No that is not a typo...FORTY-EIGHT MINUTES. Sad.
G - new stop at Ash St. (near the water as that area of Greenpoint is being developed rapidly); new stop at Jackson to connect with the 7; scrap 21st/Van Alst or else move it closer to Hunter's Point for a connection with the 7; extend hours to Queens Plaza and beyond until midnight. Also, Move the Broadway Station to tie into the J, M, Z.
Two track rail tunnels in NYC cost approximately $40,000 per foot to build. In additional engineering studies and environmental impact studies will take years so forget about moving the tunnel and a new station on the G line.
One thing that the TA should look into is if they are really interested in making the Court Square/23rd Ely connection user friendly, install 4 airport style moving sidewalks into that connection. One segment in each direction between the token booth and the E/F and one segment in each direction from the booth to the G would make the connection more user friendly.
In one of this month's trade journals (Railway Age or Progressive railroading) there was an article on "Urban Outlook". In it, they reported that the two major focuses for the TA in the next decade will be to:
1) extend the N line to LaGuardia either via 19th Ave or Via the Grand Central Parkway.
2) extension of the E line to SE Queens with several possible routes being discussed.
Any other possible subway service changes are now 'back-burner' or not even being considered.
do you have the url for these two publications. I found the first one:
www.railwayage.com
but the second was not found.
On this date the polarity at the all the substations for the New York Subway will be be swapped. The third rail become negative and running rails positive. All the trains will operated backwards.
All turnstiles will unlock and everyone will ride for free.
What do you think of this?
On January 1, 2000, people will celebrate New Year's and go home, just like they do every year. That's all.
David
Y2K Guru, i agree with you. I like the one where everyone rides for free. You forgot one thing though, all personnel of the TA will be polite to passengers for the rest of the careers.
There will be no crimes, PA announcements will be clear, no garbage and slick floors on the stations and trains. Trains will run on time.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Will the passengers be equally polite to the personell? This includes spitting or throwing objects at the motormans windhield, or throwing objects or liquids at the conductor when he is observing the platform as the train leaves The fact of the matter is, HUMANOIDS operate the trains & buses. Interlockings work by pushing levers or buttons. Maybe things like payroll will get messed up. The only thing that will happen when the clock strikes 12 is the personell out there working will wish they were somewhere else.
What are you worried about our contract will have expired and the subway won't be running anyway.
I don't want to get into union politics anymore. I'm sure an agreement will be worked out between Larry & Willie in some back room long before 12-15-99, yet political posturing and tough talking by both sides will make it look like it will go down to the wire. There will be no strike. I was around in 1980 for that strike. I was on the job for 5 months. What hurt TWU most was losing that dues checkoff. They had to come collect union dues personally. TWU will never allow that to happen again. Mark my words in the archives. TWU never paid a dime of the multi-thousand dollars in fines. Only the workers paid their monetary penalties under the terms of the Taylor Law.
Your right there will be no strike because Willie James will Sell us all out like he did the last time. We got screwed with are AVA'S. Only 18 people a shift A Division can take sick weekday and about 11 on Sat and only 8 on Sunday. I found that out the hard way when I put in for a sunday off to ride the Low V. I put that in 25 Days ahead of time. I still toke off by going AWALL. It unfortanite the the Low V came to the Term I was suppose to be at and the Dispachor picked my out right away. He has mad that he had to ABD the 6:20 AM Parkchestor during a Go so there was a 30 Min gap. He gives us a lump sum payment insted of a raise. He is nothing but a sell out who did't even win in RTO it was the Surface DEPT that got him in.
What about the Surplus money Slick Willie?
I don't wait to get in the Middle politics. But AVA'S are when you want a day off not sick. Awall is not realy a good solution. You should have provided proof like your ticket stub. Hard to believe the Dispathor couldn't find a crew to Jump ahead. Also during GO's there are Extra Board crews. About what I think about Willie. I won't say.
All I can say about Willie is, I'll take Willie and the TWU, and you can have my union -- DC 37. Enough said.
TWU Local 100 and the International Union are based in the same building. So both are tight with each other. Promotions to the International often come from the local. DC 37 is based in NY, the International in Washington. Not as many buddies who see each other on a daily basis in that kind of arrangement.
Some reasons why there can not be a strike:
1)Willie and the James Gang are not willing to spend time in jail after being held in contempt of court for organizing a strike.
2) Most workers will not be willing to sacrifice two days pay for every day out on strike (Taylor law provisions)
3) Many single parents work for the T.A. They live paycheck by paycheck and will not be willing to sacrifice for the cause
4) That $497 million surplus will evaporate FAST over the next few months. James Gang will have to settle for a small pay increase and some promise of job security
5) The T.W.U. is in shambles. Factions such as the James Gang, New Directions and Slate for a Democratic Union??? will never come together to present a united front..
Need I say any more ???
One thing that will NOT happen at 12:00 midnight on January 1, 2000:
The millennium clocks at all the U. S. Post Offices (and similar ones elsewhere) will reach zero! The way they are currently set, they will all expire at 1:00 a.m.! I mentioned this to whoever was in charge at my local post office, and he mumbled something incoherent about daylight savings time. I realize this is off the transit topic, but if there is anyone out there who knows the answer to this, I would certainly appreciate hearing about it!
Thanx,
Bob Sklar
The late Frank Sinatra sang the famous song, New York, New York is a heck of a town., the Bronx is up and the Battery is down and all the people ride in a hole in the ground. This was from the movie On the Town. Has anyone ever seem Frank actually riding the subway?
At Jilly restraurant in NYC in 1965 Frank cracked a joke as follows;
"Misery is riding a subway at 4 o'clock in the morning and finding out that the cop riding in your car moonlights as a mugger."
Frank had an extensive collection model trains and had an awesome layout. A whole building with a model train layout. He also painted.
A picture is worth a thousand words, so go to http://www.pipeline.com/~robertwa/puzzle.html
I think we have a winner!!!
That's great that you actually were able to find a photo with the exact same structure detail.
(Just in case any one is wondering.. I wasn't holding out.. I really didn't know the location. Thanks to all who participated, we should do this more often!)
-Dave
I didn't find the photo - I took it today!
Do I win a hat?
> Do I win a hat?
Well if the project ever comes to anything, sure. :-)
Congratulations!!! I can't believe that not one building remains from the original picture. I guess there's no way to date the original picture, probably sometime in the 1930s.
In My Opinion on 2 and 12 Skip Stop
should skip stop starting at Wakefield 241st, 233st, 219st, Gun Hill Road, Allertion Av, Pelham Pkway,and E180st than thur express to 149st 3 Ave.
should skip stop starting at 238st Nereid Av, 225st, Gun Hill Road, Burke Av, Pelham Pkway, Bronx Park East and E180st than thur express to 149st 3 Ave.
Both train stop at Gun Hill Road, Pelham Pkway and E180st.
should drop express to local starting E180st to 149st.
I like your No.2/12 skip Stop but I like to No.5 to stay Express in Bronx besides its a good Super Express witch is why the crews like myself like to work on the No.5 Weekdays. Unfortinatly I don't have the Senarity to pick the No.5 weekdays and I been a T/O for 11 YRS.
I was thinking, when would you have this skip-stop service implemented? If it's during the day and the present 10 minute headway is retained, plenty of people will be waiting 20 minutes for a train. Also to be considered...if you increse (my spelling is terrible) service on the 2 line it merges with the 3 once it gets to the 142nd Street Junction, it could get busy here with delays since #3 trains northbound must cross directly in front of the #2's southbound.
The #1 can use the skip-stop because it uses it's own track from end to end with a 5 minute headway leaving VC making passengers at skip-stop stations only having to wait 10 minutes for a train which is the norm during the day. 5-minute headway is now attained in the central business district on the local track and on the express track as well with the merging of #2 and #3 service both on 10 minute headways.
My opinion is to do away with skip-stops, it only saves a few minutes from end to end anyway.
R62A-WH 320 Total 320
R33-WH 406 Total 406
R62A-WH 240 Total 240
R62-GE 323, R33-WH 88 Total 411
R26-GE 110, R28-GE 100, R29-GE 118 Total 328
R29-WH 118, R36-WH 74, R62A-WH 265 Total 457
R33-WH S39, R36-GE 212, R36-WH 138 Total 389
Which Lines is going to get R142? 1,080 R142 subway cars that MTA order. There are 1,403 Redbirds R26/28/29/33/36 and 1,148 Steelbullet R62 and R62A
In the last couple of years I have occasionally seen R62's on the (5). Are they considered to be permanently assigned?
Bob Sklar
These R 62's that you have seen on the #5 are cut at night into 5 car units for the OPTO shuttle. They are permanently used for the OPTO but are maintained at Westchester Yard.
But once the 5 and 2 get R-142s, the R-62As on the 5 will go back to the 6, right?
More then likely those R 62's will be back on the good old Pelham Line.
From what I've been hearing on this site, the 7 is getting R62As. But from looking at the number of cars assigned to each IRT line on Stone Cold's post, it looks like there will not be enough 62As to seve the 7, whether they come from the 3 or the 6. I heard the 1 is keeping its 62As, because it is a "showcase line" (why, I don't know), and its cars are being liked into 5-car sets. With the 7 having 389 cars on it now, how will the 265 R-62As from the 6 or the 240 R-62As from the 3 be enough to serve the 7?
Also, will the R-142s be permanent 5-car sets? If so then I can see them not being assigned to the 7. But I saw on the Bombardier website that the R-142 can be linked into 11-car trains as required for the 7. Has this changed?
Better revise the R62 quantity on the 4 down to 320 - the other three units (#1435, 1436 and 1439) involved in the 1991 Union Square crash probably won't be repaired.
Wayne
Thank Wayne and Where is #1435,#1436,and #1439 now? These cars already scrapped?
I believe they are on the revenue inactive track at 207th Street Yard, awaiting disposition. The husks and half-shells of #1437 (the front) and #1440 (the larger piece) are lying about at Concourse Yard. I understand their plaques have been removed (some lucky workmen probably have them on their den walls or in their workshops).
#1436 has damage to both ends. #1435 has damage to its forward end.
#1439 has damage to the roof, bonnet, back end and one side.
Wayne
1440 is probably at 207 St Yard, Wayne. I've only seen the two halves of 1437 at Concourse. Funny too, becuase several years back, they were all sitting together at Concourse. Why not dispose of 1437s carcass? How come it's the only car still sitting at Concourse?
Other than that, one can find two R12/14s at Concourse. Peter Dougherty took photos of them and they are on this site in the yards section.
-Constantine
He also took, and I have, photographs of #1437 @ Concourse but he was asked by his host not to allow them to be put on the web due to pending litigation. That's why they are still there- they are "evidence".
-Dave
Hey Wayne This morning i went to pick up the application for conducter downtown and i went for a little ride. I saw R62 #1431-32-33-34 & 1438. 1438???? I thought #1438 was wreck? Also i took a train and i saw #4500-01 sitting in the middle of track at Eastern Parkway. That train was wreck in 1971 and they in good shape now.
I've seen that odd bunch too. #1438 has a transverse front cab.
A few minor addendum to these:
#1438 was further back in the train on Aug. 28, 1991 - I think it may have been as far back as the sixth or seventh car; the last five cars of that ill-fated #4 train remained on the rails and escaped damage; I think the train actually uncoupled between the fifth and sixth cars. The order of the first five cars was :
#1437 (cut in two)
#1439 (derailed, dents in various parts)
#1440 (right side hit I-beams; front embedded in back half of #1437; rear damaged by car behind it)
#1436 (both ends damaged)
#1435 (front end damaged)
R40M #4501's accident occurred on May 20, 1970 at Roosevelt Avenue. She collided with an R16 GG train on a switch. The fifth car of the R16 (#6304) was pushed into the curtain wall and sheared open. The R40M train was being driven from the third car because of a total loss of power in #4501-4500. Her front (sign side) corner was smashed, her bonnet was broken and her anticlimber was bent. There was also some sheet metal damage on the outside ahead of the first door. This was repaired using side sheet metal from Slant R40 #4200, which suffered an accident in the yard.
R42 #4612 was also involved in an accident in 1971, and he, too was repaired. The car he hit, R32 #3629 was not so lucky.
I'm picking up my application on March 15.
Wayne
Got my application today..4500-01 was actually rebuilt twice, as I've seen pictures of it labeled 'Repaired' with blue doors.
-Hank
Dave,
We should do this every week just for fun. Post one picture a week and see who can Identify it.
I want to know where this movies made "Taking of Pelham one two three" at?? The trains they used it R21/22. I remember watching these movies many times and i was trying to find out what station they shoot at? The movies is good and i don't like the Remake of "Taking of Pelham one two three". Because they didn't made in New York but made in Toronto.
Hi,
Its my understanding that the station that eventually became the transit museum (City Hall) was used to shoot many of the scenes of this movie. What a great cast:Matthau, Jerry Stiller, Robert Shaw (who's next movie was Jaws after this),
Martin Balsam, etc.
She's moving! who's moving? Pelham 1, 2,3
Wasn't that a great movie! All that subway action! "The train will stop," said the old Jewish man. He knew about the automatic braking system that came into effect on curves that were taken too fast. And the drunk lady who slept thru the whole thing said "hic" is this 23rd st?
Chuck Greene
I'm glad someone mentioned the making of the movie. The Taking of the Pelham 1-2-3 was filmed at Court Street (my TRANSIT MUSEUM) in 1974. Here's a bit of trivia for subway buffs! Does anyone know in specific which cars were used for filming (any numbers?) Are there any cars still in existence today that were used for that film? Give up? Well, I know at least one car that was on the train and it STILL exists: R17 6609, which ironically is at the Transit Museum. Note: 6609 was NOT the car they did the filming in. That folks was an R22 (7339???). Imagine that! 6609 at Court Street in 1974! Who knew in two years she would call this train station (Museum) home???
Speaking of which, I've always wondered why 6609 and 9306 went to the Museum early in their years of service. I would've thought they'd be needed to fill the gaps in revenue service. What do you think?
I also can't recall if there were any fan trips with the postwar IRT cars at the Museum. But think of it! An R12,15,17, and 33 on a fan trip! They would make a unique consist. The end is near for much loved IRT cars. Perhaps this might be a good time to run some excursions with the post war IRT cars in the Museum (pre-GOH). I don't see much for the Nostalgia Special during the year. The later R Types I would think, are in better shape than most old prewar equipment, I'm afraid.
-Constantine Steffan
The actual lead motor was 7339. My favorite character in the movie is the Console train Dispatcher. "Screw the god damn customers. What do they want for their lousy 35 cents, to live for ever?" My kinda guy...
I been seeing that movies almost 15 times and i should go out and buy one for my self. They ( Hollywood ) should make another movies called ( Return to Taking of Pelham one-two-three ) and better make in new york.
To Stone Cold and other Pelham 123 followers. I hope so to. Also it will have to be done with a new bunch of the 4 men who took Pelham 123. Robert Shaw killed the hot shot guy who was a former mobster. The guy who stuttered was shot by the undercover cop who jumped off the train. Robert Shaw killed himself by touching the 3rd rail when Walter Matthau caught Shaw on the track trying to kill the undercover cop. Martin Balsam is in jail after Walter Matthau caught him in that little one room apt. Martin Balsam as you remember was caught coughing and sneezing in his apt.
The man who played the Dispatcher in Central Command Frank O'Neill is now dead. Jerry Stiller and Walter Matthau are still alive and can come back.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
The Mayor also gets in a great line:
(after the mayor's assistant informs him of the heist)
"Can't we just let them *keep* the subway train? We've got plenty of others; we'll never miss it."
Too bad it wasn't an R44
If it had been an R-68 (or, for 1973, an R-16), they never would have had to worry about that extra speed going around the loop, the thing would have just chuged along at about 15 miles per hour, and the passengers could have just jumped off.
Of course, they couldn't have used South Ferry in that case -- the train would have had to go all the way down to Stillwell to loop around.
I fully am aware of that. My only point is that nobody would miss an R44.
I understood that. My point was the R-68 or the R-16 are slower than the R-44, which would turn the movie's climax into something that moved about as fast as the O.J. Bronco chase on the I-405 in Los Angeles five years ago, or Shideshow Bob escaping in the Wright Brothers plane on "The Simpsons"
It coulda been. To quote Mr. Conductor, who was later shot for not knowing this fact :) "...each car is 75' long.."
-Hank
It coulda been. To quote Mr. Conductor, who was later shot for not knowing this fact :) "...each car is 75' long.."
Just shows they paid attention to the mistakes that Godey made in the book!
-Hank
I was just watching the movie this past week (it was again on cable way out here in California) and the car that showed up the most in the movie was 7439.
You must have seen a different version than the one I own. On my copy, the lead motor, where virtually all the action takes place, is 7339.
Steve is right- the lead motor is #7339. I think the other car is #7459 but I could be wrong (the one where the conductor leans out)
Oh - #6609 - that one was used on the 42 St. Shuttle during the "French Connection". Maybe once #4572 is ready to call it a day, he can join #6609 at the Museum.
Wayne
I seem to recall seeing car #7439, as well as 7339. Also, take a good look at the last car of the train as it leaves "28th St." after the hijackers take over. I spotted #9379, which would put it in the R-36 range. The catch is that 9379 is a WF R-36, while this car has mainline drop sash windows on its sides, as well as a drop sash window on its storm door.
BTW, most of the tunnel scenes were shot in the tunnels leading to Court St. I'm still curious as to what they used for 28th St. It had to be an IRT station, because the train comes up flush with the edge of the platform. Ditto for 51st St. It looks like the real McCoy, but if you look closely in the scene where the camera is looking out through the conductor's window, where Mr. Gray (Hector Elizondo) is waiting to board, there is a noticeable gap between the train and the edge of the platform. I'm pretty sure the Grand Central scene, where Mr. Mattson gets off the train and Mr. Brown gets on, was filmed at Court St. There appears to be an R-10 across the platform. Those of us who are purists know that on a 6 train, the doors at Grand Central open on the left side when looking forward, NOT on the right as depicted in the movie.
One other thing to watch for: the front destination sign on car 7339 as the train initially enters 28th St. has wide "Brooklyn Bridge" lettering. Then, as the runaway car comes to a screeching halt after being tripped by the timer signal near the end, the camera at track level in the tunnel reveals narrow "Brooklyn Bridge" lettering on the destination curtain of 7339. Makes you wonder if they may have swapped cars... BTW, the wino lady says, "42nd St. already?"
Some of my favorite lines:
Frank: Don't bug me, Garber, I've got problems.
Garber: Oh, yeah, what's the matter?
Frank: Oh, nothing: a train's down, its radio's dead, the power's off, and it's dumped its load. Aside from that, everything's ginger peachy.
Frank: To hear you plead with that chickens--t makes me ashamed to be an American.
Garber: Go away, will you, Frank? Go play with your trains.
Frank: We'll have to move them by bus... Whaddaya mean you haven't got any buses? Go out and hijack some.
Borough Commander: Keep it coming! You got less than four minutes.
Miskowsky: Uh, yes sir, we'll make it. (turns to his partner) We'll never make it.
Plumber: How come that gate ain't locked?
Dolowicz: Who's gonna steal a subway train?
Dolowicz: What were you doing with your hand in the john, anyway?
Jenkins: My hand wasn't in the john.
Miskowsky: What's taking them so long?
Ricci: Relax. You know how many times you have to wet your thumb to count a million bucks?
Ricci: This is a million dollars?
Miskowsky: It's what it buys, Albert. Not what it weighs.
Miskowsky: I always wanted to do this. Look, we're scaring the s--t out of everyone.
Ricci: Yeah, including me.
Patrone: Wait a minute. I just figured out how they're going to get away.
Garber: I'm listening.
Patrone: They're going to fly the train to Cuba.
Garber: You're a sick man, Rico.
There are a couple of other favorite lines from the movie:
Petrone: You know me I'll believe anything.
Garber: A train has been hijacked.
Petrone: I don't believe it....
Mayor: Please don't tell me it's another strike..I can handle another strike....
Warren: A train has been hijacked...
Mayor: Come on up!
I also love the way Walter Matthau says "Shut up!"
It sounds like he's saying "Shat up!" (He also used this in one of the Grumpy Old Men movies)
That Walter Matthau is a class act - truly one of a kind, going back to his classic "The Odd Couple" with Jack Lemmon.
Thanks for jogging a few memories. Roe has the movie upstairs; maybe I'll go up and pester her for it...
Wayne
I heard Walter Matthau did Pelham only because he needed the money.
There were subway ads a few years ago which featured Hector Elizondo. He is quoted as saying he is a New York City native and has been a subway user all his life. Essentially, it's a plug for the subway. I must admit that whenever I see him in a movie or on TV, I immediately think of his portrayal of Mr. Gray. He was very convincing. BTW, did you know he is a guitarist and singer? I'll bet he even likes the slant R-40s.
Speaking of Matthau, here are a few of his better lines:
"What's the matter with everybody? How many hijacked trains have we got around here?"
(to Patrone): Why don't you tell these gentlemen about some of the things that have happened in the New York City Subway lately, Rico?
Patrone: Well, we had a bomb scare in the Bronx yesterday, but it turned out to be a canteloupe. (pause) I'm busy, Zach, OK?"
"I hope you're memorizing all this junk; I'm going to ask questions later."
"Don't worry about a thing; they don't understand a word of English. This way, dummies, just step this way, dummies." He is referring to the directors of the Tokyo subway who, much to his surprise, do speak English.
Upon his discovery that DCI Daniels is African-American: "Oh, I thought you were, like, maybe a shorter guy or I don't know what I thought."
"I hope he washes his hands before he opens the door." To Patrone, as they wait for Longman to open the door to his apartment after Longman tells them he's on the can.
Green: You got a warrant?
Garber: No.
Green: Supreme Court says you gotta have a warrant.
Garber: Oh, yeah? Well, the way things have been going, they'll be changing that in about ten minutes.
Blue (in the tunnel): Officer, I suppose you couldn't use a quarter of a million dollars, could you?
Garber: Quarter million? Ah, no, thanks. My acountant says I've accepted enough for this fiscal quarter.
"We'll have an ambulance here in no time, Miss. Everything's going to be OK." He doesn't realize the injured undercover cop is a guy.
I went to see this movie in 1976 after it came out in Washington, DC at the RKO Keith's Theatre up the street from the Treasury Dept. Harry Houdini escaped from a straight jacket while hanging upside down above the theatre marquee in the 1920's.
The lines I liked are as follows:
"Here's Frank Borell, lord barone of the New York Subway. Noticed how smoke and fire come out of his ears."
Frank Borell said, "What do they want for their lousy $1.35, live forever."
I like the Jewish guy on the train trying to descibe that the train has to stop at a red light with something called trippers.......
Frank Borell said, "What do they want for their lousy $1.35, live forever."
It was 35 cents, not $1.35
That line actually goes, "Screw the g--d--- passengers! What the hell do they expect for their lousy 35 cents, to live forever?" (the fare was 35 cents from 1971 to 1975)
Garber: Oh, you're beautiful.
Frank keeps on spouting: "What about that cop on the train? When the hell is he going to start shooting?"
Garber: We don't even know if it is a he.
Frank: Women cops - what the hell good are they? Take forever to get her gun out of her g--d--- purse.
That was great stuff( the lines) from the movie. Good job and thanks for a few minutes of entertainment!
Chuck Greene
The "TAKING OF PELHAM 123" was really a great movie. I would like some opinions on how the city and the TA would actually respond to a situation such as that movie. Do you think someone could pull such a stunt like that as easily as the movie made it look? For the record I don't beleive that you can alter automatic block signals to be red or green at your pleasure can you?
I remember reading that the movie did not do all well nationwide. Apparently lines that we thought were great (such as "What do they want for thirty-five cents...) did not go over in the rest of the country. One other thing---didn't anybody read the book?
I did read the book. It gave more information on various subjects, such as what does 1-2-3 mean etc. It also described how a bomb went off on the #4 line in the book. The book was good but the movie was great!
Chuck Greene
1-2-3 stands for the time that the train left Pelham Bay Park: 1:23pm.
Wayne
Today these are the way the call letter would be because transit runs on 24 HR clock.
13:23 Pelham
That's an excellent point but then, by the title, the movie should have been set during the midnight tour.
I have the book. Very well written, except for the incorrect length of IRT cars. The remake, pathetic as it is, does portray a few instances exactly as spelled out in the novel while the original does not.
I read the book. Hard to find nowadays. The movie honestly was better. And the book was riddled with ethnic and social commentary.
I still have a copy of that book, rescued from a flood at my school library. It's in ok shape, for being abused in a HS library. I also bought the movie from reel.com
-Hank
Hank, the conductor told the senior conductor that the car was 75 feet long, this was earlier in the movie. The conductor was shot by Robert Shaw as he told the conductor to walk to the cops and tell them to resume bringing the $1 million dollars to the car. The conductor goes to the track, walks a few feet away and Shaw shots the conductor.
This was after the big shooting scence with the cops shotting at the subway car.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Actually, the trainee Conductor said that each car was 72 feet long, not 75.
David
I know, I was making a funny. :)
-Hank
The original movie (1974) was shot at 28th Street on the Lexington IRT, and also at Court Street (site of the NYC Transit Museum).
The waste of film done in 1998 WAS shot in Toronto's Lower Bay station, which is no longer used in service.
Hear Hear HEAR! That so-called re-make was a sacrilege. There is NO WAY I could mistake Toronto's #5482 for an IRT Car. Aren't those 75-footers? They sure looked like it. Anyway it was AWFUL. Anytime I see a Toronto train or station dressed up as a NYC train or station, it makes me want to throw up.
Wayne
I beg to differ. 28th St. on the Lexington is a typical four-track, outside platform local station on the original Contract One leg of the subway. The 28th St. station used in the movie consists of a single track and a single platform. I'm still trying to figure out which station was actually used. The camera never focused on the wall tiles, which would have given away that fact.
On the other hand, the 23rd St. station which is seen when the car starts moving is the real thing.
The wall tiles were consistent with those at Court Street. I believe the flourescent lighting was put there by the studio. They pasted a fake IRT frieze over the two-tone aqua IND tile. They wouldn't have used 8th Avenue on the "L", would they?
Wayne
I'll buy that, but how do you explain the fact that there is no gap between the platform and the edge of the train? Unless they laid some 2x6s down along the edge of the platform...
<<
i don't like the Remake of "Taking of Pelham one two three". Because they didn't made in New York but made in Toronto.>>
That remake was so bad I had to run out to Blockbuster the next day and watch the original to get those bad images out of my mind from the new version.
I remember writing down at least 25 differences from the two films.
"Gusundheit!!!!!!"........Lt. Zachary Garber
Hi,
Regarding songs with specific references to the New York subway system:
Glen Campbell's "Rhinestone Cowboy" is the only song in modern Billboard history to hit #1 on the Top 40, Country and, Adult Contemporary
charts that makes specific reference to the NY subway system:
Down when you're riding the train that's taking the long way
And I dream of the things I'll do, with a subway token and a dollar tucked inside my shoe.
The song was actually written by Larry Weiss, who was from the greater NY/NJ area.
I'm not perfectly sure, but I do believe the "Pet Shop Boys" mention the subway ni one of their songs. The only trouble is that it might be the London subway...
I noticed that several cars were listed as Revenue Inactive, Revenue Storage Not Overhauled, and Converted to R-43. What's the deal with this?
12 cars were converted for the SIRR. In the TA computer system, they are classified as R-43. As for the others, I can't give you a specific reason for them not being overhauled other than speculation. My guess would be that the cars were in such poor shape that they could not be overhauled at the price quoted. Care to guess what that was????
I'd bet the wife, kids, dog and house that it cost more to GOH than the cost of each car when new.
You'd win too:
R-44 new = $211,850
overhaul = $548,000 for MK overhaul or $612,000 for TA overhaul.
R-46 new = $275,831
Overhaul = $464,000
Yeah, but you need to add in the cost of a second set of trucks for all the cars into the 'new' price. They were, when built, the most expensive new cars by a wide margin. And does anyone know how to adjust for inflation?
New cars seem to be priced around $1M per car...
-Hank
I was wondering why weren't the R-44/46's weren't gutted and overhauled w/ the same equipment?
Would you mind clarifying the question?
I meant with the same mechanical equipment for both cars.
Both contracts were overhauled by Morrison Knudsen although MK subcontracted the TA to do 1/2 of the R-44s. Since MK is not a municipal agency, they were not bound by the 'lowest qualified bidder' constraints that the TA has to deal with. However, they were constrained by two considerations.
First, it was more cost effective to replace equipment with newer equipment from the same manufacturer. Wiring and piping is simplified in this manner.
Second, the TA always had a policy of not relying on a sole source for equipment. If the TA were to, for example, buy all Thermoking equipment for HVAC, they'd be captive to that one source. Not a good business decision. Same is true for propulsion equipment. recently, the TA decided to replace all the westinghouse propulsion equipment on 1,500 cars. The fact that GE represented a viable alternative, Westinghouse had to bid a more reasonable price for the equipment.
I would think, with the large number of cars the TA has, that they'd be better off with just a single type of everything, with contract specifics of payment. Fewer parts to keep around, fewer shop manuals, and once you find a flaw and fix it, you know what you've got to do to the other thousand cars....
-Hank
They should just make one division GE and the other Westinghouse. Why didn't they think to divide it that way?