In the Monday February 1 Ny Post there is a TA Office of System Safety report that blasts the TA for the death of a Brooklyn track worker killed when he slipped in a dark, wet sunway tunnel and feel onto the electrified third rail, the NY Post has learned.
After you good folks have read the article, your thoughts are welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Yes, I found it an interesting article, but it's important to remember that there may be more facts that weren't mentioned. Drawing any conclusions based on a newspaper article probably isn't a good idea.
Just a note--this article doesn't seem to be in the Post online edition.
While I was familiar with this incident, I wanted to read the article before I made any comments about the incident or the contents of the article itself. It is amazing how differently people can interpret a news item. The article, on one hand, is critical of the TA for ignoring safety issues but on the other hand, mentions that the article is based on a report by the TA's own Office of Safety.
As for the facts of the incident as I know them: The worker slipped and fell, landing on the 3rd rail and was electrocuted. There were reportedly safety procedures ignored, which contributed to this incident. What does that really mean? If safety procedures were violated, then the TA had to have these same procedures in place for them to be ignored. The supervisor in charge of the worksite was reportedly suspended immediately for disregarding the safety procedures. (The Post completely ignored this fact) Finally, the hourly employees apparently also ignored the lack of safety devices in place. Workers, regardless of title can refurse to work if the working conditions are unsafe. The Post seemed to make it sound like there was controversy over working while 3rd rail voltage was on. This is by no means unusual. Virtually all of my Car Inspectors and Road Car Inspectors will work with 600 Volts when necessary. We are trained to do this safely and do so hundreds of times a day.
In the last paragraph of the artcle, they quote a gentleman from the union safety committee who says that they will never give in on working with 600 volts again. I happen to know this person for the past two decades as he worked for me as a Car Inspector before becoming a Union Safety Committee member. He has worked under 600 volts in the past and knows that it is necessary at times. As the Senior VP stated in the article, the TA Safety People, while well intentioned, have no idea about the actual procedures used in the field throughout the industry.
Every time the TA changes Presidents, the organizational focus shifts slightly. Each new president wants to leave his mark on the organization. One wanted to eliminate graffiti while the next was committed to repairing the rolling stock. Still another wanted to make the TA run like a profitable business. President Reuter has committed his focus to employee safety. We (managers, supervisors and hourly alike) are saturated with safety related information and directives on a daily basis.....Sadly, an employee, a husband, a son, a brother and a friend lost his life needlessly and tragically. However, it was the direct result of individual(s) who failed to follow the established proceedures and not the organization who had those procedures in place and mandates their use....
<>
a typical management response. passing the buck as usual
Also in the Monday February 1 Ny Post, a Brooklyn teen was killed, and three others wounded when rival gangs squared off at the L train platform at the Union Square station with knives and guns on Sunday January 31.
Your thought are most welcome after you read the article.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Updating this teen slaying story is that 3 brooklyn teenagers have been arrested in the 14th street-Union Square station subway gang melee. This might be on radio now.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
[Also in the Monday February 1 Ny Post, a Brooklyn teen was killed, and three others wounded when rival gangs squared off at the L train platform at the Union Square station with knives and guns on Sunday January 31.
Your thought are most welcome after you read the article.]
There was something rather amusing in the article (though see my caution elsewhere re taking newspaper reports too seriously). One of the gangs, I don't remember if it was the Mexican Boys or the Wild Chicanos, was heading back from a christening, of all things, when they ran into their rivals. You'd think they'd be in good moods after being at a christening ...
All in all, this was a pretty ridiculous incident. At least no innocent people were injured.
Regarding my caution about taking newspaper reports too seriously:
Accoring to the Post, the gangs involved were the Mexican Boys and the Wild Chicanos. Yet the online version of the Times says they were Barrio 26 and Chicano Nation. Who's right - the Post, the Times ... or neither?
Newspaper inaccuracy is just a minor issue. What *is* cause for concern is that during the month of January, there were two murders on the subway (this incident and the Kendra Webdale pushing), compared to only one for all of 1998. I know, it's too early to start thinking about trends, but even so, this isn't encouraging.
Here's the
link to the Post
Howdy folks,
For those of you who were watching commercials between Atalnta's humiliating defeat(sorry, Atalnta fans), see if you caught any of these subway shots during three commercials yesterday:
1. In the commercial for the new Keanu Reeves movie "The Matrix", there was a scene when he was directly in the path of I believe a Toronto subway train.
2. In yesterday's second worst SBC(Super Bowl Commercial), Jerry Seinfeld travelled the country, and when crossing the Manhattan Bridge, clearly visible below him was a train of R-68's.
3. In the "NFL Thank You" spots, there was a shots of the NY Jets thanking fans at a LIRR station(Jamaica?) and fans waving from a train.
I had to keep the old brain working during between plays. Better than doing the Dirty Bird.
[3. In the "NFL Thank You" spots, there was a shots of the NY Jets thanking fans at a LIRR station(Jamaica?) and fans waving from a train.]
That station was Merrick, on the Babylon line. You could see the sign very briefly in the background of one of the shots.
I saw the Manhattan Bridge in one of those commercials. Didn't spot any subway trains, though.
There is a victory parade in Denver at 2:00 PM today, followed by a rally in Civic Center Park. We'll see if RTD runs 3-car light rail trains the way they during last year's parade.
This morning I saw on train #171, the Mayflower, at Back Bay station. Powering the otherwise normal consist was an F40 and GP40 #197! Do they usually run GP40's on the NE corridor?
Are we going to have a larger surplus, too? Lit Subway Billboards Are Coming to Stations
The way the MTA is talking in that article, I'm waiting for the first shrink-wrapped ad on a subway car to make its appearance any day now.
I was recently at the subway.org ftp and downloaded the sound files there. However, they were in an uncommon .au format. Do you know how to convert these to .wav so I can use them as sounds for Windows?
I think Microsoft Media Player handles them. .au is known as "Sparc Audio" format Ulaw encoded, 8000 Mhz mono.
-Dave
No, I think you misunderstood my question. I mean how to make them to .wav files so I can use them as system sounds; for example, like shutting down windows or an error message.
I had the same question. How do you convert the files on the ftp to a windows file that can be used as sounds?
I finally figured out how to convert these! Go to www.goldwave.com and download the free version. It is like a mixing program, but it will change the files into .wav format. After you unzip it and start the program, (you dont' have to install it) open the file you want to convert. After it is opened, click on save as, and you'll see where you can choose the file type. Change it to .wav (it's at the very top). Then change the file attributes to 16 bit, mono. That's all you have to do. Then, if you want, put the new .wav file into your windows\media folder and choose that file for a windows command. You can access this by going into control panel and then sounds. If you have any more questions, you can email me at ruffalo@adelphia.net Hope this helps!
Matt
I can vouch for Goldwave too: I've been using it for quite a while, especially for converting other types of sound files to .wav format. It's perfect for changing .au files, or most any other type of file for that matter, into a system sound.
Thank You Matt and Henry!!
I found it and its working just fine. Appreciate it!
Thanks,
Thomas
Hey tom can you e-mail those converted wave file to me.I'll Appreciate it!
Tirado57@aol.com
I have a NYC Subway map from 1988, one of the enlarged ones they have on the platforms in which I bought from the Transit Museum. I notoced on the Service Notices that there is a new Freet Transfer at 42nd street and Times Square. Do I take it that before 1988 you were unable to connect from the A,C,E and the 12397 NR? If so did they have to do some major work to do the connection?
At one time, there was no free transfer from Times Square to the 8th Ave. line. While the mezzanine at 42nd St. is physically the same as it was before, there were separate paid fare zones between uptown and downtown stairways. The entrance from the Port Authority Bus Terminal took you down a ramp to the mezzanine, but it was still outside the paid fare zones along with the corridor passageway to Times Square (which was marked a "Follow the blue arrow to Flushing trains and Shea Stadium" sign). If you went through the turnstiles to the wrong platform, you had to use the underpass which was right at the spot where the uptown and downtown platforms overlap at 42nd St., affording a view of the lower level platform which was fenced off. I remember using that underpass once or twice and getting the creeps after seeing the lower level. This is the way I remember the mezzanine from my days of boarding A trains on Saturdays from 1967 to 1970.
Originally, the fare control in the corridor passageway was located at the Times Square end. I vividly remember seeing a yellow sign which said something like "No free transfer to IND subway. For free transfer take an uptown 1 (may have said IRT local) to 59th St." During the 70s, it was moved to the western end of the passageway right at the 42nd St. mezzanine.
The entire mezzanine at 42nd St. is now incorporated into the paid fare zone, providing a free transfer to the IRT and BMT lines at Times Square, as well as permitting transfers from uptown to downtown. The underpass was closed at the same time, and the lower level has been permanently sealed off. The subway entrance from the Port Authority Bus Terminal was moved one block north after the terminal was expanded, with turnstiles right by the doors. Last fall, there were turnstiles on either side as you came through the doors. If you turn right, only the downtown platform is accessible; if you turn left, you can access both platforms along with the corridor passageway. It's also much brighter than it used to be, and there are far fewer stores than before.
Prior to that date there was no free transfer, however the passageway from the Flushing Line to the IND had been in place for many years and may have been built either when the IND was in 1933 or when the Port Authority Bus Terminal was openned in the early 50's. All that was necessary at the 8 Avenue end was a re-arrangement of the turnstiles and closing off a token booth that was located about midway down the passageway.
Redbird
Does anyone know when Newark's PCC(subway) will be replaced with the new fleet of cars? I wanted to be able to take some pictures before it happens and does anyone know what is to become of the old fleet as well.
I think you will have all of 1999 to get photos. The shop for the new cars has just started construction, and the connection to that shop has not even been started yet.
I recall that some and not all the R-1/9 cars had a long pole with a handle. At the base was a ratchet like gear. This was found at the front next to the end storm door.
Was these used to uncouple the cars? The ones that did not have it next to the door, where was it?
As the train moved, so did the handle hitting the pole in a hypnotic
rhythm.
That was the handbrake. On newer cars, I believe it's located inside the cab. I stand corrected if this not the case.
The cars are uncoupled with a wrench called a cutting key.
The handbrake is also located on older SMEE cars inside a recess
in the storm door pocket column, outside the car.
To be 100% accurate, the cutting key does not uncouple the cars.
It is simply a stylized keyed handle (analogous to the brake handle)
that fits into the uncoupling valve. Inserting the cutting key
and opening the valve with it causes air to be sent to the H-2
coupler head, where a large piston overcomes spring force and
pulls back a locking dog. Once unlocked, the cars can be pulled
away from each other. If the cutting valve should fail to operate,
the cars can be cut by hand by placing a cutting "iron" (a big
box wrench) over a lug on the coupler head and turning. This
has to be done on both cars simultaneously while a third person
moves the cars away. Definitely a risky-finger proposition.
There's also another, non-approved way to manually uncouple that
requires a little "field engineering"
R44 and R46 cars have Ohio Brass couplers and an electro-pneumatic
cutting device activated by a pushbutton.
You can see how this happens in the original Pelham 1-2-3. Unfortunately, the movie doesn't show Mr.Green inserting and turning the cutting key. The remake, as pathetic as it is, does show this sequence of events.
When on the LIRR if you buy a ticket on the train you receive a ticket and receipt. I found one on the train and I started looking at it. Then I had questions I could not answer myself.
On the one way area there is the letter B. What is the B for?
Also when would you ever punch the service charge or set-up area? Finally on the bottom for the destination I guess, why is Dest. always punched? Never nothing else?
I can answer some, but not all.
B? Don't know, always wondered.
Service Charge? This indicates that the penalty fare for buying the ticket on the train was included.
Set-up? Don't know.
Destination? This is the punch which tells the conductor whether or not you've completed your trip. For example, if you get on at Valley Stream and want to go to NYC the conductor who sells you your ticket will punch the JAMAICA box on the westbound line of destinations. Then during the Jamaica to Penn leg of your trip, the conductor will punch the DEST box.
I think I can fill in the blank...
I don't have a receipt in front of me, but by "set-up" I believe you mean "step-up." If you board a peak train and present an off-peak ticket, you have to pay a step-up fare to upgrade to the peak rate. The collector will give you a step-up ticket for the difference.
This differs from the "extension of ride" fare, which I would pay if I presented my monthly ticket for zone 7 but wanted to go to a station in a higher zone.
Mike
On sunday I saw this. When traveling East, we pulled in to Jamaica track 8. As we sat there, to the right where extra tracks are, on the far track behind the M1-3s there was on older car. It looks yellow, has anyone else seen it?
I believe that's some sort of track inspection car.
The "Engineering Inspection Car", which is the LIRR Track Geometry Car, is stored just east of Jamaica Station. I believe the cre referred to is more to the West, on the lead to the Dunton Shop. Looks like an abandoned MP41, used for an office of some type. (I believe there is an AC unit in one of the windows)
Does anyone have photos of the never-used shell that was to be the S. 4th Street station, and which is located above the Broadway station on the G line? Is there any evidence of stairways to this area in the Broadway station today? I find no mention in the line-by-line description of the G.
The S. 4th St. shell is not legally accessible. I don't even think tours are given; infrequently if at all. There are locked gates at one of the ends of the Broadway station which provide access to the unused shell. From what I've read, it is so vast that a flash unit could not provide enough illumination. There's not a whole lot to see anyway, just rough concrete and beams. S. 4th St. is not a full-length station the way Roosevelt Ave. is. It's as long as the Broadway station is wide, kind of like the shell at Utica Ave. Had it been built, it would have had the same layout as Hoyt-Schermerhorn.
This morning at the Beach 116th sta. I noticed in the window of the booth there was a red and white book with black and whit photos entitled "1998 NYC Subway Guide". The clerk told me it was not avalible to the public. The photos on the front were of NYCTA employees and Trains.
What is it?
You can get this book from the Department of Subways
Same Format as the Insiders Guide---from the Dept of Buses
1998 Subways Guide
Contents
________
Organization
Message from the Vice Preisdent
Service Delivery
Car Equiptment
1998 Rodeo Winners
Rapid Transit Operatins
Stations
Maintenance of Way
Electrical Systems
Signals
Infrastructure
Track
Admininstrative
Engineering
New Technlogy Implementation
Administrative and Finance
Capital Programs
New Car Procurement
Operations Support
S I Railroad
MTA/NYC Fleet (roster)
steve
What do the Tiles of Beavers chewing on wood in the astor place (6) station represent?
It's in reference to John Jacob Astor, who made his fortune in beaver furs.
But some people have thought that the beavers actually are rats, an animal more commonly associated with the subway :-)
As David our host has mentioned, these plaques signify Mr. Astor, for whome the Place is named. These are made of "faience", which is double-fired terra cotta, and were manufactured by the Grueby Faience Company of Boston, MA, under the design direction and auspices of Heins and LaFarge, who were responsible for many of the beautiful plaques, mouldings, tablets, tapestries and cartouches you see in the older IRT stations.
Here, take a beaver to lunch!
Wayne
[Click here!]
I live near bedford park blvd and the station only hold 3 tracks why only 3 track. They should make it 4 tracks and make the D a full time express and the b a full time local the Q would be full time as well. 4 tracks under the grand concourse would make be great for the MTA
It would be extremely difficult to rebuild the line as four tracks at this point; it won't happen. But I agree that three-track lines are somewhat foolish. For new subway lines, if any express service is contemplated, four tracks should be built.
Of course, a Grand Concourse full-time express would be worth even less if they kept using the R-68s...
What exactly does that message mean? Somewhat cryptic if you ask me...
Have you ever ridden on a train of R-68s? Talk about slowpokes! The Concourse express run on the D has been reduced to a boooriiiinnnngg, ho-hum, 25 mph putz. The express run along CPW on those cars isn't the same, either. Put it this way: no one will ever mistake the R-68s for the R-10s or R-32s or even slant R-40s.
The objective in designing the subways was to have multiple two or three track lines combine into four track routes with express service.
The Concourse line was designed as one of the local feeders to the Eighth Av. Subway, with the Washington Heights line being the other. Admittedly, the express tracks there run to 168th, but the basic idea is the same. The third track under the Concourse allows for peak hour expresses on one of its routes, but there was never any plan to operate full time express service. Unlike the IRT, where the express goes up one branch and the local up the other, the IND provides express and local service on both branches. IMHO, that makes for poorer overall service.
According to what I heard, there were originally supposed to be four tracks on the Concourse Line, but that they ran out of money. The Brooklyn Line has four tracks all the way to Church Av, and the Queens Line has four tracks all the way to 179th St. (Was it supposed to have been extended to Springfield Blvd, where Hillside Av. opens to a very wide plaza?)
Bob Sklar
Bob: The way I heard the story is about the same. The Bronx people were given a choice, either a three track line now or wait a year and you can have a four track one. They wanted the three track line now.
The lower level platform at 145 Street was built with one extra wide platform to compensate for the missing fourth track.Also the IND Concourse Line runs closely parallel to the IRT Jerome Av Line so there was not a pressing need for a four track line.
Regards,Redbird
To satisfy my idle curiosity does anytone know what is the fastest section on any line on the subway and what speeds are regularly achieved (so I may sample it on my forthcoming 4th tour of the subway). On Lt tracks I have recorded well over 60mph (14secs between 1/4 mile posts on the line from Finchley Road to Harrow on the Hill and I believe this is the fastest section on LT. Unless anyone knows different.
Take the 4 on the Lexinton Avenue Line around Rush-Hour and take it on an R-62. You will the speed if you get an aggresive driver. I did and I found out that driver was going 50 miles per hour.
Christopher j Rivera
I was on an R-train going to Queens under the East River which indicated that it was going 57 mph.
Which cars did the train consist of? I'll bet they were R-32s.
The 6th Ave. express run from 34th St. to W. 4th St. southbound is a real race track. So is the southbound 8th Ave. express dash from 59th St. to 42nd St., especially the downhill portion just south of 50th St. Back when the R-10s ruled the roost on the A, the nonstop stretch along CPW was an express addict's delight. Honorable mention goes to the straightaway runs along 7th Ave. from 34th to 14th Sts., and from Grand Central to Union Square along Park Ave.
The only time I have personally seen a speedometer indicate 50 mph in New York was on a 4 of R-62s in the Joralemon St. tunnel on more than one occasion.
My all-time record was on a BART train in 1981 while heading out to the Oakland-Alimeda County Coliseum; it hit a top speed of 85! That same train did 72 in the Transbay Tube.
I'll second the 60th St tunnel, either direction. Catch a train of R-32s though; I don't think the R-46s get that fast.
--Mark
North bound 60th St. tube with a lite (no passengers) train of R32's did 61 last July. Did 57 on the Rockaway flats with a train of R44's in December. But an un-named individual had something to do withthat one.
No one mentioned the Fourth Avenue express! What no one remembers it before the timers?
The slant R-40s and R-42s would scream down 4th Ave.
Yes! I love those slant's. Remember the Rockaways with them? That's why I have a tendency to work the Q, dispite the 4 trips. Love that Brighton Express. My favorite cars nowadays.
I know Wayne is grinning from ear to ear. I never rode the slant R-40s on the Rockaway line, but I did ride them on the A during the late 70s. They could do a very good impression of a train of R-10s along CPW. In other words, they could, and still do, move!
Evenings and weekends (when they're not making everything local), those R-32s on the E Queens Boulevard Express (especially in the express-only tunnel from Queens Plaza to Roosevelt) can melt your socks! Other great express runs: 4/5 59th-86th-125th (NOT rush hour when there's too much congestion!); 2/3 Times Square-72nd); Q Newkirk-Kings Highway. The legendary 59th to 125th (A/D) seems to have timers or construction; there's always a bad bogdown at 72nd (downtown) and 103rd (uptown). As far as river tunnels, 60th and Montague when on an R-32 is nirvana. Runners-up: Joralemon (even better on a Redbird than a 62); 14th Street (L); 53rd Street (E ONLY!) evenings and weekends.
Every now and then I try the BMT trains. God, they drag. The Brighton crawls down from 7th Avenue, and from then on. It took 25 minutes from 7th Avenue to Grand one morning, and it didn't seem like something special had happened.
The IRT seems to be the fastest. Even the locals move. Now that my kids are in school at 8th Avenue and 7th St, I find I can get to work faster walking up to Grand Army and taking the IRT than by walking two blocks and taking the F to the A/C. Lately the F has been baaaaad, especially in the evenings.
If you're referring to the R-68s on the D, you won't get any argument from me. The slant R-40s on the Q can still move swiftly. And, yes, locals on the IRT really zoom along, much to the dismay of those of us who are diehard express addicts.
Slant 40s are geared at 7.235:1. 10 Slant 40s weigh about 776,000 Lbs. and have 4,600 HP or 169 Lbs/Hp.
At the same time, the R-68s are geared at 117:23 or 5.086:1. Eight R-68s weigh about 742,000 Lbs. and have 3,680 Hp or about 202 Lbs/Hp.
I'm not a mathamatician but the Slants have the advantage in Hp/Weight but the 68s have it in gearing. I'd have to call it pretty close to a draw. Of course, this does not take into account the aerodynamic differences of the cars.
The weight of each individual car also plays a role. The slants are about 14,000 lbs lighter per car, and, like all the cars from the R-10 up to the R-42 (save the R-16, of course) just seem to ride a lot lighter on the tracks than the later models, though the R-46 can kick it into gear when it wants to. The R-68 rides `heavy' -- it just feels like it wants to go down as much as forward when you're on it.
I know this isn't scientific, but that's just the way the cars feel.
Wait, what "speed" is at issue here? During initial acceleration?
Top-end speed? "Route" speed? Customer speed perception?
During initial acceleration, all cars in the fleet should perform
almost identically. The accelerating current (notching) limits
are calibrated to give uniform acceleration rate (2.0 MPH/s).
The load weigh cards are also adjustable so this rate is made
regardless of weight. So if you start two "competing" trains
side by side on equal trackage at the same time, you should be
looking at the exact same window on the other car for a while.
When the automatic acceleration has notched all the way out (boy,
the calculations get much easier now that all that pesky field
shunting doesn't happen anymore :) the cars continue to draw traction
current and accelerate, but at a vanishing rate. That's because
the counter-EMF generated by the motors counteracts the applied 600V.
Counter EMF is proportional to speed (for a given field current)
and so as the car gains speed, the available electric potential to
the motors falls off. Eventually, a speed is reached at which
the current flowing through the motors produces just enough tractive
effort to counteract wind resistance, rolling resistance, mechanical
losses in bearings and journals, and a host of other complicated
track/train dynamics factors. That's called the "balancing speed".
The R68 and slant 40 (GOH) use motors with identical electrical
specs. The R68's higher gear reduction is needed so its motors
can deliver the same rate of acceleration without straining the
motors. By the same farecard, the R68 should have a lower balancing
speed since the motor is turning faster in relation to the wheel
than on the R40.
Of course, there is also the perception that the smaller the object you are riding in, the faster you feel you are going. Thus the IRT car also gives the perception of greater speed. Of course, going from Dekalb to Grand you are laboring upgrade and then riding the brakes downhill working the time lights. This adds up to the train not performing at its best anyway! The tunnel grades aren't as steep, and in the close confines of the tube speed appears amplified. Again the IRT wins!
When it comes to the poor old R-16s, four words come to mind: everybody out and push!
I suppose the same could be said for the R-68s.
The ultimate race: slant R-40s vs R-38s. Any bets?
I'll bet on the slant R 40
Slant/Sumitomo "Q" beats out Buffalo Transit/GE "A" by a pantograph gate! (#4399 should come over from the "L" to lead the way- that one is VERY FRISKY for her age - 31).
Wayne
Two important points:
One:
Same Equipment - Same Car - Same Speed
Balancing speed is inversely porportional to weight on cars with the same equipment.
It is also inversly porportional to gear ratio.
Therefore if an R-68 is heavier than an R-40 and has a higher gear ratio, its not going to go as fast - all other things being equal.
BUT! It will make it over the bridge without losing traction or burning up motors.
Two:
If you mix cars with different gear ration and equal rates in the same train, mix cars with different accelleration rates, or mix shunted and unshunted cars in the same train - you get coupler slack action, frazzled passengers, and draught gear repairs.
So if one particular car runs faster than others - it probably has a problem that needs to be repaired!
All the more reason to put some slant R-40s back on the A.
>>Every now and then I try the BMT trains. God, they drag. The Brighton crawls down from 7th Avenue, and from then on. It took 25 minutes from 7th Avenue to Grand one morning, and it didn't seem like something special had happened.
Nope, that happens every morning. I assume it has to do with the B merging in just at the point trains have to slow to cross the bridge; once trains leave Grand Street they (both Qs and Ds, I find, despite the equipment difference) run at a pretty good clip as far as 34th.
I work on 55th Street, so the Q practically dumps me into my lobby--otherwise I'd switch over to the IRT myself. On the bright side, I can usually get a seat going over the bridge (since so many people ditch at DeKalb for the tunnel lines), and there's plenty of time to enjoy the view.
Actually, D and Q trains tend to crawl n/b from 7 Av to Atlantic Av because the signals are set up as 35MPH grade timers, but also as 20MPH station timers. Apparently, nobody in RTO bothered to explain to Train Operators that these signals can operate either way (they only act as station timers if a train is right behind its leader), so most Train Operators tend to treat the signals as 20MPH timers even though they could safely move at 35MPH. The same thing happens s/b from 7 Av to Prospect Park, where the timers are GT40/ST20.
(Could safely move at 35 but go 20). Twenty miles an hour? I'm getting pretty chubby, but I'm pretty sure I could job out ahead of a D/Q no problem. I saw a TV show on an Indian railroad that runs up the Himilayas to a hill station. It goes so slow up the mountain that passengers get off, run along side for a little exercise, then get back on. That's more like it. Trains crawl over the bridge, too.
I ride the line every weekday, and it does go slow through that section into Atlantic. (And over the bridge, and in midtown. After that I don't know.)
But during midday or on a weekend, I've been on trains that felt like they would plow right into the wall at the curve before the platform at Atlantic.
I've also been on Brooklyn bound weekend trains that zip right over the bridge. At least up to the GT signals.
There is an abandoned station at Roosevelt Avenue intended for a connection to the Rockaways. It was never used and I believe it is used by Police. Does anyone have drawings of it or photographs?
If you're not a member of the Transit Museum then you should be. Join the Museum and sign up for the tour Routes Not Built - then you can visit it and take pictures for yourself!
I don't live in New York City. Do you? My good friend Joe Cunningham gives the tours for the Transit Museum.
No, I don't. However, I joined the Transit Museum several years ago and will occasionally make the journey to New York for the tours (assuming I get the information in time before they are all booked up). I've been on several of Joe's tours and they are usually excellent. Indeed, I can only recall one that was disappointing, and that wasn't Joe's fault - someone in the TA made a mistake and didn't have a facility open for us that they were supposed to have. I don't remember who led the tour that I took to Roosevelt Avenue a couple of years ago, but it wasn't Joe. The station was extremely dirty from all the brake dust (like any other area of the subway that's not regularly cleaned) so if you get the chance to go wear old clothes! We were able to walk down one of the trackways to the end; the TA had cleaned up the area a bit and installed temporary lights for us but unless you came equipped with high speed film and a sturdy tripod there still wasn't enough light for good photography in the tunnel. The station photographed reasonably well with my point'n'shoot, however. There aren't any pictures on this web site, unfortunately; if someone has some good ones they would be willing to share I suspect that the site owner would be glad to include them on the Disused and Abandoned Stations page. As I recall, mine in the station are reasonably well lit but not composed very well, and as for the attempts I made in the tunnel... let's not discuss those!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thank you for sharing your story on the subject.
While we're on the subject of the never-used Roosevelt Ave. station, I was curious about its specific location. I know it's on the mezzanine level, above the active Queens line, and I presume it's off the Jamaica-bound end. If I'm coming down the stairs to the mezzanine from the bus terminal after getting off the Q-33, I assume that if I turn left at the token booth and hypothetically keep going straight, I'd eventually reach the never-used station, right? Or am I way off track, so to speak?
Hello. I am not from the city and have a few questions about the D line and going to the Fordham Ave. stop. I am going to college here and would like to know a little about getting around. First off, about how long a ride is this from middle Manhattan? Second, how safe is this ride at any time of the day, and is the immediate area of the walk from the stop to the campus bad? Thirdly, is there a C train that takes you to this stop? Any comments are appreciated.
It is about a half hour from 34th Street-6th Avenue, which is midtown.
The C used to run there during the rush hour but doesn't any more. It has been replaced by the B, so the only service that runs on the Concourse line is Sixth Avenue. Change from the C train to the D train at either 59th-Columbus Circle or at 145th Street.
As far as safety is concerned, while I can't vouch for the safety of the local streets, the Concourse line is just as safe as any other subway line. Observe the rules of common-sense subway safety that are posted in many stations. I wouldn't travel alone there after
11 PM, but then again I wouldn't travel many of the outer lines alone after 11 PM either. The trains they run are R-68, which means that the end doors are locked. If you don't feel safe, ride in the fourth or fifth car, that is where the conductor is located.
Wayne
Wayne answered the question about the subway ride itself. As far as the walk from Fordham Rd. (not Ave.) "D" station to the Fordham campus, it is about a ten minute walk, and is downhill all the way. Fordham Rd. is a major through street (part of U.S. route 1) and well lit, so the walk is pretty safe. The Bx12 bus also runs along Fordham Rd., so you can use the free Metrocard transfer from the subway to the bus, which will let you off right across the street from the Third Ave. entrance to the campus.
The FASTEST way between the Fordham campus and midtown though is by Metro-North railroad. The Fordham RR station is directly adjacent to the campus, and the scheduled running time to Grand Central is 18 minutes. But trains only run once or twice an hour, and the ride is several times the price of a subway ride.
The school also provides free shuttle vans for students and faculty between its Bronx and Manhattan (Lincoln Center area) campuses.
Hi Matt!
I went to Fordham and Wayne and Dan pretty much gave you the low down. However, the intercampus van is not free. It is now $2.00 one way, but very much worth it!
In general, we always traveled in groups if we took the D train or went off campus after dark. It's no secret that some students that wandered off campus alone or even with one other person during late hours had some bad experiences. This isn't to scare anyone, but just use street smarts and be aware of what's around you, as you would do anywhere in the city at night. I had a safe and pleasant four years at Fordham, and I took the D train and went off campus to adjacent neighborhoods. It's a great place! I myself preferred the van or the Metro-North, because it was more convenient. Good Luck!
as said earlier the D is about 10 walk from campus. The 4 trains is maybe a 3 minutes walk beyond that. I have walked to and from both of these stops late at night with no problems. You just have to use common sense-dont go alone. The university also runs a security shuttle every 30 min starting at 10pm that stops at the D (but not the 4) You'll find yourself taking the subway far more than the van or metro north. Its cheaper, it goes more place (anywhere vs. GCT or lincoln center) and it it hard to get a seat on the van (you have to sighn up early) on nights and weekends. The subway is the cheapest and most convient way to get to anywhere in manhattan
if you have ay other questions just ask
THREE OR FOUR MONTHS AGO I SAW A R62 WITHOUT BOTH NOSE STANDING WITH WORK CARS AT E180ST ON #2 AND #5 TRAIN AND I WAS THINKING IN MY MIND THAT TRAIN CAME FROM UNION SQ WRECK???? WHAT THE NUMBER OF THAT TRAIN???? HOW MANY R62 HAVE BEEN WRECK OR NOT IN SERVICE??? I KNOW FOUR R62 HAVE BEEN WRECK. IT THERE IS ANY R62 THAT WRECK IN UNION SQ IN THE YARDS OR SCRAPS?
That may have been #1435 or #1436, both of which suffered end damage in the Union Square wreck.
R62 (and R62A) I know of that are out of service:
#1435 (end damage - 5th car Union Sq. wreck)
#1436 (end damage - 4th car Union Sq. wreck)
#1437 (split in half crosswise-1st car Union Sq. wreck)
#1439 (end,side and roof side damage-2nd car Union Sq. wreck)
#1440 (end and massive side impact damage-3rd car Union Sq.wreck)
#1696 (out of service status unknown)
#1909 (side impact damage-Hunts Point Ave.incident)
By the way - no need to use all capital letters (we consider that to be shouting).
Wayne
What the gentlemen saw was a pump car made from a spare R62 shell. There are 3 pump cars in the system, assigned to work trains. Pump cars are utilized for pumping water out of the subway system. A watermain break on 7th Av will give this work train more priority than anything else as it will be responsible for bringing the water level in the tunnel to a minimum. The cars in the Union Square Accident have not been rebuilt to my knowledge. The two halves of 1437 are sitting at Concourse Yard. As for R62a 1696, I will investigate.
-Constantine
I am curious about #1696 for two reasons:
1. I haven't seen it yet.
2. I saw the following bunch on the #6 Thursday
1700-1699-1698-1697 (I was sure i'd see it..) then...#1743!
As for the spare shells, whose shells were they?
Wayne :o)
Well, these shells came straight from the manufacturer, Kawasaki. The TA probably specified to the car builder what they wanted to do with the spare shells, and the answer was THREE PUMP CARS COMING UP! Of course attached to the pumps are demotored R17s, 21s, 22s. Dave has apicture of one of the cars on this site. Here is a list of the pump equipment:
PC01-PC03 Pump Cars (spare R62s shells)
R17 6899
R21 7121
R22 7629
these and 6 other R Types are designated Reach Cars.
1696? Well she hasn't been banged up, so she's got to be on the road somewhere. Cars on the 6 aren't usually in any order.
-Constantine
Hmmm. The last R-17 of the batch. Interesting.
They must be running single R-62As on the 6. Speaking of which, how many of those dudes are going to remain single? They'll have to keep some of them that way if they want to continue to run 9-car trains on the 3 and 11-car trains on the 7 after our beloved Redbirds leave the nest.
AS far as single cabs on the on the No. 1/9 and 6 lines they will all
be wide cabs so they can try One Person Train Operation especaly on the No. 6 Midnights. On the No. 1 line the transverce cabs are linked
in 5 car units like the No. 4 Line.
Steve,
The R62As are single right now, at least on the 6, but the 1 is a different story. The TA wants to convert as much as they can to 5 car sets. I'm sure a group will stay single especially if you have to worry about the car assignments on the Shuttle, the 3, and the 7. BUT, the R142s are coming. These cars can be reconfigured into 4, 5, or 6 car sets. Depending on where the R142s are going to be assigned, they might be able to run on the 3 or 7.
-Constantine Steffan
The R-62s blink on and off
R62 doesn't blink on and off.
Pump Cars PC01, PC02 and PC03 (R-65) were built in 1985 by New York Railway Corp. for $555,646 each. According to "Revenue & Non-Revenue Car Drawing" Book, the car bodies were built by Bombardier (not Kawasaki).
Main Pump = 480 gallons per minute (250' head) with 58 HP motor
Horizontal Pump = 380 GPM (250' head) with 50 HP motor
Discharge Hose is 12" diameter X 27,000 feet....
Sorry Steve, I wasn't sure which company made them. I knew for certain that they were spare R62s, I just didn't know their specs. What about the Reach Cars(R17/21/22)? Can you tell me what their exact functions are?
-Constantine
P.S. 480 gallons per minute? That's an awful lot of water!!!
The reach cars are not covered in either version of the Record Drawing books I have. Their primary use is to permit the pump car to be used effectively while keeking the locomotive out of harm's way (so to speak).
I did find some interesting info on the original pump car #30128 (R-3). It was built in 1932 by Magor Car Corp and was able to be used on all 3 divisions after unification. Original # was 56, changet to 20128 in 1966. The interesting part is that it carried sixty 50' sections of 4" hose for discharge but despite the restrictive size of the hose, it could pump an almost unbelievable 2,000 GPM (250' head) using a 250 HP pump motor.
480GPM a lot? No way! As someone who follows fire trucks, anything less than 1000gpm is just 'mediocre' If the pump car can only do 480gpm, they may as well scrap it, because a single fire truck can outpump it....
-Hank
Well Hank, I don't know! This is not a fire truck is it? The pump cars are for draining out the water, not for hosing a fire down, otherwise for every fire the TA would use the damn things. This information was given to me by Steve. Check with him if you have any questions.
-Constantine
I mention it only because FDNY frequently pumps out basements of buildings when related to a fire, main break, or severe (life-threatening) flooding. They can clear out a lot of water much faster than 450gpm. My next question would be, how many pumps are on the pump car?
-Hank
Check the previous posts by Steve.
-Constantine
I re-checked the book and it does say 480 GPM. However, it also says @ 250 ft. head. If we are gonna compare the 2, we are comparing apples and oranges. To keep it in perspective, 250 feet of head would be like a fire truck pumping water up 25 stories while maintaining that 480 GPM flow. I would suspect that even the FDNY Super Pumper can't sustain that.
I'd have to check with a couple of sources from FDNY (if they even REMEMBER the SuperPumper, which was retired in the late 70s in favor of several engines with larger standard pumps) But I'll get more detailed stats on the pumping capacity for a bit better comparison.
-Hank
I read in a local Philly paper(The Westside Weekly-WestsidePA@aol.com) of an unfortunate event that occurred on January 7.
A 7 year old girl, who lived near 54th and Market and attended school
about three miles away got on the 'G' bus to go home. She got on to find that her tokens were gone. The driver ordered her off and she was stranded in snow and cold with no ride home.
Fortunately, she told a nearby police officer who gave her the money to ride home.
When the girl's mother found out, she went to SEPTA to find the bus driver, but was unsuccessful.
SEPTA came out to saythat, especially for kids, they will issue an emergency fare in inclement weather for passengers who have misplaced their fares. This is true because it has happened to me, but it was no consolation for the girl and her mother, who is still angry.
My question is, are there policies in the NYCTA concerning situations like this? Do they issue emergency fares?
[A 7 year old girl, who lived near 54th and Market and attended school
about three miles away got on the 'G' bus to go home. She got on to find that her tokens were gone. The driver ordered her off and she was stranded in snow and cold with no ride home.
Fortunately, she told a nearby police officer who gave her the money to ride home.
My question is, are there policies in the NYCTA concerning situations like this? Do they issue emergency fares?]
I find it rather surprising that a parent would allow a 7-year-old to ride alone on a city bus. There seems to be more or less a consensus that 11 is the minimum age at which children can stay home alone (note that school before- and after-care programs frequently run up to age 10). Clearly, a child who cannot legally be left home alone should not be riding a city bus alone.
(Yes, I have heard that 6-year-olds routinely ride to school alone on the Tokyo subway, but things are different here).
In this situation it may not have been a SEPTA policy but the bus operators policy. In NYCT we are told but not officially that school age children who may have lost or misplaced their passes should be allowed to ride for free after receiving the "stern warning speech". It is rather heartless to do that to a 7 year old while it may be more appropriate for a 17 year old.
SEPTA - serious about change (meaning, if you don't have it, you're not gonna ride!?). TWU Local 234 - serious about ticking off passengers? I think this is a case of driver judgement and a poor choice at that. Why would an operator turn a child away? Unfortunately, this is the type of attitude frequently encountered with SEPTA operating personnel. It's a job, not an adventure.
Before we generalize, though, here's an example of a good SEPTA operator. I was riding a different line to work Friday at a different time than I normally ride. The operator greeted a blind passenger, who must have been a regular, and advised him where to sit, etc. The operator even had a bag for this passenger. The operator was courteous, pulled to the curb (something few SEPTA operators do), called out stops (ditto), lowered the kneeling device several times for older riders (ditto), and operated in a safe and courteous manner. When we reached Center City, the bus was getting crowded and was taking on several passengers at each stop on Chestnut St. When we reached 16th St (Jack, you may have guessed that this was a Route 9 run), the operator left his seat, assisted the blind passenger off the bus, and led him to the Route 2 stop across 16th St. This was probably a violation of SEPTA policy, especially since the operator left the transfers in the cutters.
When the operator returned to the bus, about a half-dozen riders were waiting to board. One, a middle-aged woman, began to complain about being in a hurry and blabbed a "why did you leave your post to help that man, I don't have all day you know" speech. The woman sat next to me, and I told her that the man being assisted was blind. She still did not care - the bus was late and she was in a hurry and the blind man was not her problem. Maybe you can't blame operators for not wanting to be nice to riders?!
It unfortunately doesn't pay to be kind and helpful anymore.
I stopped using SEPTA buses after the strike unless in EXTREME circumstances. They're too slow, even in clear traffic, drivers aren't very helpful, know little if anything about the basic CITY-SERVING rail system(El/Subway/Trolleys) and absolutely nothing about RR unless you're in the suburbs(and only the Main Line at that).
The only route I could ever stand was the 21, one of the few express run buses, but Idon't know if they still do it.
Makes one think they just don't care!
IMHO, if NYC(sorry, just comparison by reputation)has you beat in ANY type of customer assistance(which isn't to say NYC is a hostile place-I'd certainly rather live there, and not just for the subway) then you need SERIOUS help.
I saw one of the best bumper stckers yesterday since "Wife and dog missing-reward for dog".
It read: "Railfans don't die, they just lose track".
While visiting Seattle, WA this weekend I observed two 50's-era trolleys running along the harbor (I assume this is a tourist area). How extensive is the trolley line? Is it just through the harbor/dock area or does it extend elsewhere?
I also saw the monorail running near the Space Needle. The monorail looked like the one that used to run at Disneyland. Someone told me the ride lasts all of about 90 seconds. Was this left over from the World's Fair?
> I also saw the monorail running near the Space Needle. The monorail
> looked like the one that used to run at Disneyland. Someone told me
> the ride lasts all of about 90 seconds. Was this left over from the
> World's Fair?
Sure is. In fact, there's a proposal that was brought about by a "common citizen" (forget his name) to expand rapid transit in Seattle. While no one took it seriously, it passed in the general election. The voters didn't pass funding required for roads and bridges but they did pass the rapid transit proposal. It seems to have items in it where lawmakers are penalized if certain things don't happen by a certain time.
The recent edition of the New Electric Railway Journal had an article about it.
--Mark
Ah, yes, the infamous Monorail Initiative. The proposed monorail system in the initiative is quite specific about where the lines are to go and where stations are to be located; there is some flexibility, but not very much. The initiative was not a generic requirement to build "a" system, but to built "THE" system, spelled out in detail, devised by the "common citizen" himself (a taxi driver with his only transport experience being fighting Seattle traffic every day).
The problem with the initiative is that it was a proposed solution to a non-problem. The government was NOT ignoring the transit issue: there was already in place a detailed plan ("Sound Transit," a pun on sound, meaning practical, and Puget Sound) for the construction of light rail and commuter rail lines in metropolitan Seattle/Tacoma. At the time of the initiative vote, the downtown Transit Tunnel had already been built as the keystone of the new system, and preliminary work had been done to prepare existing freight railway trackage for the commuter rail service, so the plan was not mere ink on paper.
Now, there are two competing, and some say duplicative, systems in metro Seattle: the Sound Transit Agency and the Seattle Monorail Corporation. This duplication came not from the mind of some bureaucrat, as is often the case, but from one activist and the grass-root support he drummed up. Sometimes, the "vox populi" is not "vox dei" but vox humbug!
I believe the transit tunnel was built for buses initially but was also to be shared with light rail at a future date.
Sometimes people put the mode before the need for the service. Transit works best when done in conjunction with land use planning. You shouldn't do one without the other. It is to hard to fix problems with transit solutions when a poor urban design has stacked the deck against success. Seattle has a chance to get it right though.
The Seattle Trolley is known as Rt 99 Waterfront Streetcar and it is run by Seattle Metro Transit,(606-684-1441). It is about two miles long with 9 stations and uses 600 dc trolley wire.
Redbird
The trolley line mostly stays along Puget Sound. Towards its southern end it turns in under the Alaskan Way viaduct, goes past Pioneer Square, and ends up near (but not in) the International District bus tunnel station and the King St. Amtrak station.
Thanks for the information, David and Redbird!
The trolley has been in operation since the 80's. I prefered the freight line that it replaced, which ran along the waterfront under the viaduct until the city made them close it down. It seems the Burlington Northern (or was it UP?) ran a train of toxic chemicals through the streets of Seattle at the same time about 30,000 people were exiting the Kingdome. After years of trying to get the trains rerouted around and under the city, this was the last straw.
One other note, the Queen of England rode the monorail sometime in the 80s. So I guess if its good enough for the Queen, its good enough for the little people. (I didn't make this up. Check the Seattle Times.)
Dear Sir/Madam:
The Manhattan Bridge's south side tracks are currently closed
for renovation until 2003. When they reopen the south side tracks,
why would they possibly close the north side tracks for reconstruc-
tion? They closed the north side tracks in 1982, 1985-1988 and in
mid 1995 for reconstruction. Why are they doing it again?
Also why is it taking so long for the south side tracks to
be reconstructed? The north side tracks took a shorter period of time to reconstruct. Will there be BMT N or Q Service on the south side
when the south side tracks reopen? What will service look like when
the south side tracks reopen?
James Li
Dear Sir/Madam:
The Manhattan Bridge's south side tracks are currently closed
for renovation until 2003. When they reopen the south side tracks,
why would they possibly close the north side tracks for reconstruc-
tion? They closed the north side tracks in 1982, 1985-1988 and in
mid 1995 for reconstruction. Why are they doing it again?
Also why is it taking so long for the south side tracks to
be reconstructed? The north side tracks took a shorter period of time to reconstruct. Will there be BMT N or Q Service on
the south side
when the south side tracks reopen? What will service look like when
the south side tracks reopen?
James Li
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The reason why the South side tracks on the bridge and the tracks on the North side in 1995 were closed was because the bridge itself, not the tracks needed to be repaired. The bridge itself is crumbling and
the repairs done are just band-aid approaches to fixing the bridge.
Watch the famous Tacoma Narrows film and then think about the fact that the same guy designed the Manhattan Bridge ):
If the Manhattan Bridge had had the same flexibility as the "galloping gurney", it would have collapsed a long time ago. While I'm not an engineer and don't pretend to be one, I seem to recall that the Tacoma Narrows Bridge had plate girders as a stiffener, with no openings, not to mention a slender, two-lane roadway deck. Consequently, when the wind blew, it pushed against the girders instead of being let through openings, and caused the span to sway with increasing amplitude until the main span tore away. There were other factors as well, one of which was the fact that that bridge was built on a shoestring budget - something like $6.4 million, so it was likely they skimped on a lot of things. The George Washington Bridge also had a slender roadway deck before the lower level was added, but it was eight lanes wide, plus the bridge was built like a BMT standard. When it opened, they had two platoons of soldiers march across it, one from each end, at the same time IN STEP, and nothing happened.
Totally different design!!!. I would be more concerned about the Whitestone, Tacoma's twin.
...which did have swaying problems when it was first built. They made the adjstments after that, but keeping it unchanged would have given bored Mets fans in the upper level at Shea on a windy afternoon something to look at.
Dear Sir/Madam:
Before the Chrystie Street connection onpened, what kind of
subway cars ran on the IND Lines? Because today the IND-BMT R-32s
and IND-BMT R-38s from 1964-1966 run on the A, C, E and G Lines,
which were the former IND A, CC, E and GG Lines. I saw a lot of
pictures from the 1970s and showed the IND-BMT R-27s and R-30s
on lines such as the IND AA, B, CC and D Lines. I'm wondering if
those R-27s, R-30s, R-32s and R-38s were ever on the IND lines
before the Chrystie Street connection opened?
James Li
In a word, no, except for the R-38s, which were initially assigned to the E and F lines. Prior to the opening of the Chrystie St. connection, IND routes were served exclusively by the venerable R-10s on the A and the R-1/9s on the rest of the lines. The R-38s arrived in 1966, one year before the connection opened.
The R-27s, R-30s, and R-32s were all initially assigned to the BMT Southern Division (Brighton, Sea Beach, 4th Ave., and West End) routes. The Chrystie St. connection merged the IND and BMT divisions; after its opening, the R-32s were assigned to the AA, B, and D lines on the IND, and the N on the BMT. The R-27s and R-30s were distributed among the Southern and Eastern Division; some ran on the AA from time to time. Over the years, these cars were used on virtually every IND and BMT route. The R-38s were displaced from the E and F lines when the slant R-40s arrived in 1968.
There is a bit of a story as to how the R-38's came to be on the E and F. In the late summer of 1966 the IND was experiencing a high incidence of breakdowns, this was especially true as regards the Queens IND and the Jamaica Yard was packed with bad order equiptment.A total of twenty R-38's had been delivered from the St Louis Car Company and had not yet begun revenue service. They were promptly placed in service on August 23,1966. One trainset on the E and one on the F. Help was also forthcoming from the BMT. 32 R-16's were placed in service on the GG, having had Continental,Smith-9th and GG added to their rolls signs. It was quite a treat at that time to see R-16's someplace other than the Eastern Section of the BMT.And how you may ask were the R-16's replaced on the BMT. Well several Standards were given a stay of execution and taken off deathrow at the Coney Island Scrapline and placed back in revenue service with the "S"(for scrap) painted over. There were even articles in the newspapers about the R-38's being pressed into service.
Regards, Redbird
Actually, there was quite a bit of mixing of R40 and R38 equipment on the "E" and "F" back in 1969. The R38's didn't shuffle off until 1970 or so, when the last of the R42s arrived (this little bunch of 4900s was assigned to Jamaica yard). I saw them mixed in with R16s on the "EE" and "GG" lines, and a few persisted on the "E" and "F". By 1970, all the Slants had been delivered and they were pretty much the mainstays of the "E" and "F" lines, with R-6s mixed in for good measure.
BTW - R27 and R30 could be seen on the IND prior to Chrystie Street - they made up the bulk of the "RR" fleet, which journeyed to 71st Continental Avenue during the daytime hours.
And one final note to Mr.Li - the R32 are for all intents and purposes gone from the "G" except maybe as a put-in extra train. Steve would be able to confirm or refute this. We thoroughly canvassed the "G" last Thursday and saw every train in service, and they were 100% R46.
Wayne
You're right - the R-27s and R-30s assigned to the RR did run to Continental Ave. via the Queens line. I was thinking from a purely IND standpoint in terms of IND routes A thru HH and not necessarily IND trackage.
As I've said earlier, the only time I ever saw the R-38s on the E was during rush hours back when it ran to Euclid Ave. and the Rockaways via the Fulton St. express tracks. I can only imagine what a thrill that was! Back in the late 60s, I very rarely went into the city on weekdays. On Saturdays, E trains were either R-6s or slant R-40s.
On weekdays, mornings and afternoons, occasionally there are G trains coming as R-32. You see, this is not permanent. They are all from the Jamaica Yard therefore they are mixed, not totally but somewhat except the F. E sometimes come as R-46 while some G and R sometime come as R-32s.
G trains are 6-car R-46s. There are 14 2-car R-46 units. 6206-07 is an A-B unit (the only one) followed by 13 A-A units. Since G service requires 12 trains, if more than two 2-car units are out of service, then R-32s must be used. Because of the placement of the C/Rs boards, however, the C/R will only be in the correct position if the G uses 10-car R-32s.
On the R line, the car assignments by Operations Planning call for 3 R trains made up of R-32s. Since the E line gets priority for R-32 cars and there are usually not enough of them to go around, R-32s are rarely available for R service.
Isn't there an A-B set of R-44's around somewhere.
Redbird
Would that account for the two missing numbers I show -
5480 and 5481?
Also - is 5402 still an odd fellow (without a mate)?
Wayne
Wayne: It just might. There were originally 300 R-44's or 75 A-B-B-A
sets. 12 R-44's or three sets(388-399) were exiled to Staten Island and havn't been heard from since. Ten cars were scrapped before GOH, 5 A's 120,132,176,248,288 and 5 B's 109,215,227,315,385. This leaves us with 139 A's and 139 B's for a total of 278 which divdes into 69.5 A-B-B-A sets.
Best wishes,Redbird
I will have the R-44 X-reference (old # - new#) by the end of the week. Hope it will clear up some of the confusion.
Thanks! I'm eager to find out what #5282's former number was so I can mark it as scrapped in Master Numbers Books #3 and #4.
Wayne
Does the R68 ran on Queens Blvd line on G,R,F,E??
No. Those routes use R-46s except for the E which uses R-32s. The R-68s poke along on the B, D, and N lines.
> Ten cars were scrapped before GOH, 5 A's 120,132,176,248,288
> and 5 B's 109,215,227,315,385.
Does this mean the R44 qualifies as the unluckiest fleet? :-) 10 cars in about, what, 12 to 14 years? That's a lot of damage.
David: Indeed it does indicate a high rate of breakage. I don't know if the R-44's are collision prone or simply can't take the stress.I believe that one or two of the above car shells were used at the Fire Department's Training School, though I can't say if it was the old school on Welfare Island or the current one.
Regards,Redbird
From: Staten Island
RE: R44s 388-399
We're happy. Wish you were here. See you in the scrap heap :)
-R44 Louie
The R44 running on the SIR (GOH 1990 by the TA) will either be the first of the R44 to go to scrap, or the very last. Just realizing that these cars are 25 years old, 9 years removed from a GOH, and the interior walls are cracking. Good thing they're not structural.
One odd thing about them, though. Some A cars have developed black plywood boxes beneth the seats behind the cab. Any ideas what they're for?
-Hank
Please excuse my ignorance, but is the C/R board tied in with OPTO? If it's in the center of the station, would it make any difference if G trains of R-32s were 6 or 8 cars long?
Since there are no door controls in the #1 cab of R-32s, it would definitely make a difference. On an 8-car train, the C/R would have to operate 5 and 3. On a 6 car train he'd operate 3 and 3. Now 5 and 3 would be the same as operating 5 and 5 on a 10-car train unless the conductor needs to change his operating position due to mechanical failure. Of course, a conductor can not safely change positions on a 10-car train because he would also be "off the boards".
It's the R40 and R42 that don't have door controls in the number one cab.
I honestly had no idea that the #1 cabs on the R-32s didn't have door controls. Was this always the case, or did it come about during GOH?
Thanks for setting me straight!
How hard would it be for SEPTA to implement pay-per-ride cards, like the pay-per-ride MetroCards? Card readers are already in use system-wide - what additional infrastructure would be required? Would it be worthwhile for SEPTA? ...for the riders?
It would not be very hard to do. The problem is that it's different and, therefore, SEPTA would likely have no interest.
You're absolutely right, of course. But I wonder just exactly what would be required. How hard would it be to program the system to recognize the cards? At first, they could just sell the cards, the way they sell the 11-for-10 cards in NYC, then they could add MVM-style machines accross the system over time.
Then the other thing to look at is - would it be worth it? Is our system big enough to justify it? Would SEPTA save a nice chunk of change if they got rid of tokens like NYC?
Just some thoughts...
SEPTA's subway turnstiles are only able to read information off the weekly and monthly TransPasses and TrailPasses, but are not configured as such to "deduct" fares off a multi-ride farecard.
Turnstiles in operation in New York City and Chicago, on the other hand, are programmed to recognise weekly and monthly passes as well as deducting fares and recording transfers.
I want to know how many work cars (formaly passengers cars)in the yards?? It there any R12 to R46 work cars?? Also why they keep a wreck or retire passenger cars in the yards for long time??
There are plenty of work cars to be found at the present time. Car classes R12-22 can be found on a number of work trains. Once passenger cars with nice, shiny interiors and exteriors these cars are now painted a shade of yellow and black. They don't carry passengers, rather, they carry work equipment. The IRT (numbered route)cars are more preferred because being the smaller size, means that they can travel virtually everywhere. Car classes R26-68 are currently carrying passengers so none of these are work cars with the exception of an R33 8885, also known as the traction gel car. She lost her companion 8884, sometime earlier to an accident outside of the Franklin Av station in 1997. Another exception to the rule is that the R30s which were in revenue service not too long ago were made into work cars.
As for cars being wrecked, well there's a good reason why they aren't disposed of immediately. A car that's been in an accident has to undergo litigation. This means that passengers who have been in a train related accident sue for damages and the car serves as a piece of evidence, that an accident occurred.
So if you see a wrecked car in the yard somewhere, it's being held for investigation, or just maybe that car will get restoration.
-Constantine Steffan
Constantine: do you know if any of the old IND R1 Work Motor cars are still in use today?
Somewhere in my photo collection is R1 #556 at the Coney Is. yards that I took during the famous 1979 open house.
Doug
None of the pre-WWII cars are in any thing other than Mike Hanna's Jurassic Park down at Coney Island.
It was explained to me that the wrecks of car classes still in service aren't scrapped because of the contractual bidding process. When the entire class goes, then the wrecks will too.
That's right Erik! Mike Hanna's Jurrasic Park of R1/9s are awaiting restoration (some day, I hope). I hope one of these days maybe the AB Standards will complete the restoration process and come out on the road.
Doug: There are no R1/9 work motors anymore. They were phased out as the newer R Types were put in to work service in the 1980s. By the way, do you know if NYCH is using old TA equipment for operations?
-Constantine
Constantine: I spied what looked like to me to be an IRT work-train flat car (w/wooden sides) along 1st Ave. near 43rd St. on my trip on this past Friday. Along the same Ave. further down was a train of LIRR coaches awaiting scrapping (obviously getting phased out due to the double-decker cars now in use on the LIRR Mainline).
BTW, if anyone read this past Saturday's Newsday -- there was a large article on page A18 in regards to the former BEDT steam loco #16. It used to reside over at the Bush Terminal yard (I have a good shot of it that I took back in Nov.) The article was about the loco having been donated by NYCH to the Riverhead Railroad Museum (on the east end of LI) where she is due for a resto and then exhibition on the site. Sounds like alittle bit of Brooklyn rail history will live on into the 21st Century.
cya Doug
Does anyone know the size of turnouts in the New York City subway? Are they #4, #6, #8 and #10? What are the purpose of guard chairs?
Are there any Motorman reading this message? Have any of you operated a flip-over controller in your career?
Anyone seen those funky air switches located between the rail on the IRT at East 180th Street Yard?
Air Switches? what air switches at 180 st . like to know and see.
Junior Motorman asks what air switches are at 180th Street. The White Plains Road has air switches operated from two hoses from CP valves. There are FUNKY air operated switches at E. 180th Street yard which are mounted between the running rails on a track. Also, guard chairs protect switch points.
The switches you describe are unusual and are manufactured by Union Switch & Signal and are referred to as a Style MT machine. MT stands stands for Mid Track and is mounted between the running rails. The switch points are not Samson Points and are offset from one another. The MT machine has a circuit controller and a motion plate operated from a double acting air cylinder. There may be some left in E. 180th Street Yard. The style MT switch was designed in 1917 for the Interborough Rapid Transit Company. The double piston rack and pinion A10 air switches are commonly used on NYCT.
Excellent question asked!!!
Turnouts....mostly 10s and 12s, I think, but I'd have to refer that
question to a NYCT track guru.
Yes, I've operated a flip-over controller. Not on NYCT trackage
though. Not too many people still around who have.
What's so funny about air-operated switches? Pretty standard
for US&S territory.
"Guard chairs"....:) you must be from across the pond. The guard
rail is mounted on a special elongated tie plate that elevates
it about3/4" above the running rail. The running rail is also
spiked or pandrol'd to the same plate. There is also a
spacer block placed in the fishing between the guard and
running rail to maintain the prescribed flangeway (1 3/4", I think)
There is something FUNKY about air operated switches mounted between the running rails of the same track and not outside the track. I believe only a few are left in E. 180th Street Yard. Guard chairs are unique to New York and MBTA. Cleveland Track Materials manufacturers special trackwork for New York today.
There are #4, #6, #8, #10 and #15 track layouts in the New York system.
I was looking at Illustrated Subway cars Roster and looking at new R142. I look like almost R110a and what happen to R110a??? I haven't seen R110a for a while for year now and the MTA got rid of R110a?? All i want to know when the R142 arrives to IRT and what line the R142 going to??? P.S I Really like R110a running again
I'll bet that the R142 will run on the Flushing Line because the old R33's and R36's operate there.
Seeing that the MTA is not aggresive enough in constructing new links, I have decided to create a system that does not depend on public funding. My first line would run from New Rochelle to Staten Island via Second Avenue. It would be about 44 miles long and would be the backbone of my new system.
I plan to use a unique system called the HighRoad system (www.otg-inc.com), which is a monorail that can run in two directions on one guideway. This cuts the cost of building a rail line by more than half. My project's first line would come in under $3 billion and would still allow a Second Avenue SUBWAY to be built.
If you have any suggestions on how I can get funding, or have a particular corridor in mind for a monorail, please let me know by posting it here
Nice idea, but as you know the political bigwigs would never allow it to be built.
Even our Prez "Wild" Bill Clinton himself originally had talked about a cross-continental Meglev system that got lost among other details since his first term in office. Not to mention the former NY Gov. Mario Cuomo and his high-speed monorail concept to run between NYC and Albany for Congresspersons and the general public. Again, more talk than action.
We all have dreams. That's what makes life living.
Sorry if it looked like I rained on your parade.
Doug
And now Mr. Bill probably wouldn't remember saying that.
That depends on what your definition of "remember" is:)
Well, there IS a big difference between monorails, which are a more or less proven tech, and maglevs, which are a pipe dream at best, will remain a pipedream for a LONG time, and are probbably hopelessly impractical anyway. It'll take MAJOR breakthroughs in a number of fields, noteably superconductors, before maglevs are anywhere near practical for more than short short demo runs. Yes, I know the Germans have a Maglev ready, or in, passenger service, but it's a sjort system, and probbably a very expensive one at that. The British run the Concorde still. Doesn't mean SSTs are practical, profitable, or useful.
As for funding a system, 3 billion is an amazilngly steep price, so you'd not be able to get private funding, nor local. Unless you could push political buttons, federal funding would also be hard to do. The trouble is, no matter how many riders you get, such a system would NEVER be close to profitable, as you would need more than 3 billion riders (assuming $1.00 fare) to cover the costs of the system, and that doesn't include MOW, power, operations, etc. Figure 200 million riders / year at best, factor in operatioons, assume a $1.25 fare, etc, and you'd be looking at at least 10 years to turn a profit. If it could even be done.
Better idea: Wait until the federal gov cuts loose slAmtrak, and they go under. Propose a high speed rail system between two cities where there is a lot of end to end traffic. Like down in Texas. Assume 1 billion to build it, run trains at 150 - 180 mph. Charge about 2/3 what thje airlines do between those cities, or, like $100 round trip. Figure about 2/3 of the cost is upkeep, ops, etc, leaving about 30 bucks as payback. 30 million rides later, you've paid for the system - interest. You'd get fgederal funding, state funding, publicity, and you'd make back your initail investment in 10 years. Then you could lop your fares by 25% and rake in the profits. Seriously, high speed rail is a profitable thing, just not when Amtrak is doing it (though i hear the NEC actually makes money now...)
Bonus: Just about everyone likes "TGV Style" trains. People would support the building of such a system. High speed rail is where the $$$ (and publicity) is.
Has there ever been a proposal to build such a system like that?
High-speed intracity rail would certainly be nice for a run between, say, Houston and Dallas, L.A. and San Diego or NYC and Philly, but for longer voyages, like Amtrak's Silver Star to Miami(does it go up to NYC or Beantown?), the long ride is the better ride.
The Texas system would have linked Houston/Dallas-Fort Worth/San Antonio with high speed rail, but as of now it's been put on hold because no one can as of yet assure the benefits will outweigh the costs (Plus American and Southwest Airlines fought like hell to keep it from being built)
Florida just put their own high speed rail program on hold. I'm assuming the Bush brothers didn't do many railroad trips when they were growing up in Houston.
(Where to get financing)? Just call your company Monorail.com. You can issue an IPO and get $3 billion in the blink of an eye, and you won't have to show a profit for years and years. Just do it before the crash.
Though privately-financed transit systems have been notoriously difficult to finance & build, it's not impossible. Non-recourse project financing (i.e. loans which depend for repayment on cash flow from the ongoing operation [i.e. the monorail] rather than investor creditworthiness) is a possibility.
You would need to demonstrate to potential lenders:
1. There is a sufficient equity investment (30% or so, ie. $600M) from the project sponsors (i.e. you and your associates). Likely associates to form a consortium would be the construction companies you expect to build the system, rolling-stock providers, real estate developers, private equity funds, etc.)
2. The project sponsors know what they're doing. This is why, as mentioned above, you would want world class institutions/firms involved (companies like Bechtel on the construction/engineering side), Siemens, Bombardier, etc. with you.
3. The project can not only repay the loans with a comfortable margin within say, a maximum of 15 years, but that the sponsors will undertake to guarantee that they will perform in their role as contractors with penalties payable when they don't (i.e. delay liquidated damages).
4. Revenue projections based on expected numbers of users and fares charged are reasonable & robust.
5. All necessary permits & licenses are in hand before construction begins & loan funding happens.
If you are really serious, the project finance dept. of any large bank such as Citibank, Chase, or Deutsche would be able to provide more information, but you'd be better off lining up your partners in the venture first.
Finally, since making the whole thing work financially solely from farebox receipts is usually difficult, transportation projects (such as Hong Kong's airport link) have typically relied on sale of development rights above and beneath the stations along the route to generate extra cash flow.
If you think anything even remotely approaching what you have in mind can ever be built through government handouts or 'funding', you've been smoking some very potent stuff.
(Business plans, partners, cash flow projections). This advice applies to time periods when sound finance is in order, at the low point of the finance cycle, when most of the people bankers know at the country club aren't making loans either so they wouldn't dare. At the high point, when everyone else at the country club is making loans at ridiculous terms you need to match to stay in business, different rules apply. Just be sure to call it monorail.com, and ask to borrow at least $100 million (if you ask for a $2,000 loan they will think you are not creditworthy).
[Just be sure to call it monorail.com, and ask to borrow at least
$100 million (if you ask for a $2,000 loan they will think you are not creditworthy).]
You won't be able to do that - Monorail Computer Corporation already's got monorail.com. Sorry :-(
I was looking at Cars Wrecked/scrapped while in revenue service and I was looking at the picture of R21/22 #7602 that wreck at Morris Park Ave in 11/24/79. How this happened? #7602 look real bad. Any passengers in that train or just standing on the track while out of service?
Hello. thanks for your imput about Fordham. I have some subway-nonrelated topics about the university I want to ask you, so if you could email me that would be great! My email address is ruffalo@adelphia.net Hope to talk to you soon!
Well, today the new schedules(effective 1/31) were issued everywhere.
For the first time, an M-4 has appeared on the cover of the MFL schedule(it shows a Frankford-bound train leaving Spring Garden St)
There have also been advisories for people bringing bikes on the trains stating "bicycles are permitted on the Market-Frankford Elevated [&] Broad Street subway after 7:00 PM on weekdays......"
The #13 detour is still in effect, otherwise, all is go.
Also, today in Center City, I saw a single MA car exiting the Commuter Tunnel towards 30th Street. Certainly yard-bound, but I've never seen a single unit before.
I am looking for both old and new subway signs. If you have any for sale, or know where to get signs, please let me know. Thanks!
The TA periodically auctions them off, or at least they used to. Some junk shops pick them up and resell them; there's a shed on the north side of Houston Street between Elizabeth and the Bowery that has a bunch of signs discarded from Broadway-Lafayette when that station was renovated, so you could start there.
E-bay auctions has a couple out for bid right now:
go to e-bay.com
search "subway"
They seem to pop up periodically
just what type of subway signs are you looking for? i may be of some assistance.
I am looking for any station sign from inside the station stating the station name(ie. DeKalb Ave.) like the ones on the beams or the long ones on the walls. I especially am looking for the overhead signs when entering the station from the street. You know, the one that says the station and also has the lines it services. I would be interested in any stop, but am especially looking for Canal or Essex St.s You can email me at ruffalo@adelphia.net if you can help me out. thanks!
There was monorail built in the Bronx by Pelham Bay. It was by Bartow Avenue and was short. Anyone know the tail?
[There was monorail built in the Bronx by Pelham Bay. It was by Bartow Avenue and was short. Anyone know the tail?]
There's a picture of the monorail (actually of a derailment thereon) in Stan Fischler's book, _The Subway_. No explanation, but at least you get an idea of what it looked like.
The Pelham Monorail line was opened in 1910 and ran from Pelham Bay Park to City Island. It was funded and built by August P. Belmont.
According to "Trolley Car Treasury", (I am not quoting or citing any part of this text verbatim) the derailment was caused by overloading the car combined with slow speed. The car had a catenary device that looked like three suction cups which drew power from two overhead "rails". It looked to be about 35 or 40 feet long and had rounded ends, with a flat roof.
It does not say when the line was closed, only that it ran for "a few years".
Wayne
Wayne
[According to "Trolley Car Treasury", (I am not quoting or citing any part of this text verbatim) the derailment was caused by overloading the car combined with slow speed. The car had a catenary device that looked like three suction cups which drew power from two overhead "rails". It looked to be about 35 or 40 feet long and had rounded ends, with a flat roof.]
Yep, that description matches the picture in the book. Judging from the picture, it doesn't look like the car sustained much damage in the derailment.
For the full story, see http://www.bronx.com/2_62historyarch.html#anchor141459. I was going to post a message about it, but "Trackwork Phantom" beat me to it!
Peter: Dan Schwartz gave you a good lead on this,I'll try to add to what he said. The monorail ran from what was called the Bartow Station(aka City Island Station) of the NYNH&HRR Harlem River Branch to Marshalls Corner at the WEST end of the bridge to City Island. The monorail did not go to City Island itself. The Bartow Station is located just west of the present intersection of the Pelham Bridge Road(Shore Rd) and the City Island Road.The monorail ran on July 17,1910 when the car turned over on its side because the bolts of the supporting structure were not properly fastened. Service resumed about October 1910 and operated I believe sparadically until March 16,1914. See the August 1995 Bulletin of the ERA New York Division for a complete story,map and diagram of the car. The Bartow Station of the railroad by the way is,or was as of two years ago still standing. The stone walls are intact surrounded by hurricane fencing and the roof was damaged by fire.
Best Wishes,Redbird
The New York City Subway used water to lubricate wheel flanges and rails on curves. What do they use today?
Water is still used. Take a look at the curve north of Fulton St (4/5) and the SOuth Ferry Loop, for example. (City Hall Loop has it too but you cant ride that anymore legally).
--Mark
Has anyone done a study on the ill effects of breathing steel dust in the New York Subway? Maybe it can be sold in a bottle as a sovenuir to tourists coming to New York!!! Remember the Pet Rock and the Furby Doll?
By Popular Demand-- visit BusTalk!
BusTalk
Bligh-me. We've been partitioned!
Well don't think of it like that. I'm sure the split-topic board will attract some bus-heads who wouldn't ordinarily wade thru all the subway and rail transit posts that appear here...
Thank You. Now my wife really hate you. First there Subtalk and now bustalk, when is there time for a man to find time with his wife?..........................oh well she can wait.
Just tell her to watch it --- or we'll discuss this problem at lengthhhhhhhhhhhhh on the new board -
WIFETALK!
Thank you---To David
Steve
Maybe the whole thing should be called SubbuSTalk(pointing out Sub and Bus as the same word.)
I still cannot understand why Septa has token booth clerks at all stations but request only exact change. I think this is acinine. I mean the reason they are there is if there is a special need passenger but they should also be there to make change. What if you only have a $10 bill, I am not putting that in the machine when I only want 2 tokens. Septa's system is horrendous and retarded. Also you have to put the loose change in a seprate slot than your bills at the token booth. How can we get this system changed?
Even more fun - take patco some day. I got stuck IN the system for a while because those museum pieces, I mean turnstiles, couldn't read my card to let me out. Those things have to be at least 60's vintage. Worse, when they mess up, they just flash "Error #", leaving you at the mercy of the customer service phone person, who just tells you to keep feeding the card through.
Oh yeah, Septa's ticket machines change with Suzan Bs. Septa's ticket people don't take them. Septa is truely a bizzare system. I don't think thery even know what they're doing half the time....
The "token clerks" at SEPTA subway stations are not the same as you find in NYC. At most subway stops, these are "cashiers" who only handle fare payment and issuance of transfers. Only at selected subway stops (mainly Center City, 30th St, Olney, and Frankford) do these cashiers sell tokens.
You are correct that something should be done to correct this, but don't hold your breath. SEPTA may be serious about change (i.e. it certainly won't give you any and you better have exact if you want to ride) but nothing is happening along these lines.
On PATCO, at least someone will answer the help phones when you need it. In my experience, the assistance is usually fairly good. PATCO does give Susan B's in its change machines, which are also accepted in the ticket dispensing machines. Once upon a time, PATCO changers gave 3 quarters, 2 dimes and a nickel, and invariably at least one coin would drop out of the change receptacle in the process. Usually (and I often thought this was intentional), the dropping coin would tend to roll either past the turnstiles or bounce through the wrought iron fence into the paid area.
My only beef with PATCO is that 2-trip tickets are not available at the Phila stations, only in those on the NJ portion of the line.
I noticed this afternoon a string of maybe a half-dozen former (?) ConnDOT SPV's in the 30th Street Station coach yard. This is the first day I've seen these (I pass by every day and do not recall them being there yesterday). Maybe they're headed for Amtrak's shops for overhaul? Anyone interested?
I remember riding the SOAC cars on the A train back on July 14,1974.We closely followed a regular Far Rockaway A train and the cars ran very well. When we reached the Rockaway Line the regular A train ran south on the northbound local track in order to stop at Aqueduct Race Track Station. The SOAC train ran south on the regular southbound track and caught up to the regular train so we had two southbound A's proceding side by side down the Rockaway Line, at Howard Beach the regular train went ahead and we followed. The thing I remember was the conforting presence of two transit policemen,one in each car. Back in those days it was a good idea to ride any train that had a policeman on it regardless of where it was going. I hear that the SOAC's are now at Kennebunkport,its too bad they didn't get a chance to see more service.
Redbird
Yes, the SOAC's are at Seashore. Except for faded paint and delaminating windshields, they don't look that different than they did when you rode them, thanks to the Stainless Steel construction. They don't run under their own power now, but every once in awhile they have to be moved. I was lucky to be at Seashore one Saturday morning to witness Boston subway car #0719 (built in 1927) pulling SOAC #2, and snapped a picture of the move. If anyone wants a copy of the pic, just drop me an e-mail.
I remember catching a ride on the SOAC back in fall '74 when it was being put through it's paces on the Brighton Line. It was cool to see a more suburban-like train on the subway system. The first car I recall had airliner-type rail coach seating with wall-to-wall carpeting. The second car outfitted more like the interior of the R-44/46 seating arrangement with a "coffee table" near each end of the car. The interior set-up was abit unrealistic for daily subway service, but would have been nice to see on a "special" limited run train.
I also recall a smoother than usual ride. Too bad the SOAC couldn't stick around!
Doug
I got to ride SOAC when it visited Boston, and was suitably impressed. The layout was not ideal for such operation, but as Boston then operated 2 car trains except at rush, they actually increased capacity when they ran! BTW the SOAC cars are really the last two R-44s with the sloped nose replacing the standard Sundberg-Ferrar end. This was fairly easy to do because of the way the cars were constructed. Once the bodies were complete, the rest of the project was done by other contractors. SOAC-1 and SOAC-2 were the last two cars built by St. Louis Car Co.
SOAC-1 is just about as it was when it ran in NYC. Unfortunately, when it was delivered the trucks were installed reversed, and have to be swapped before the motor leads and air brakes can be connected. With that and some luck (eg: no failed electronics) that car may yet run. SOAC-2 was stripped of its electrical equipment and rebuilt as an AC propulsion Demo. The AC motors were never installed so the car reportedly has plywood motors to make it look complete. There is little chance that it will ever run again under its own power, but it might be able to serve as a control trailer. Its trucks are totally different from those under SOAC-1 (GS-70s - the standard in Boston) and I don't know what their brake hook-up is like.
Getting them to run - of course - is a daunting task for their sponsor, a Flushing resident who is also interested in our Staten Island Car and the Delaware River Joint Commission Bridge Cars. It may never happen, but then again...
Doug: This is very interesting. I didn't know that they were the last cars built by St Louis. I assume they had pantographs as they ran in Cleveland, I guess in Boston they must have run on the Red Line because of their size. Thanks for the info.
Redbird
Yes, they did run on the Red line in Boston. The Orange line cars are a bit narrower and shorter, and the Blue line cars are tiny!
An interesting sidelight:
Although the Blue Line cars are shorter than those on the Orange Line. they are the same cross-section. The Blue Line cars sit lower on their trucks, though. (Made the price for the order cheaper, and the Orange Line cars somewhat narrower above the floor)
To Gerry: sorry to point it out, but the SOAC cars were built by the Vertol Division of Boeing Aircraft and not St. Louis Car. (They were also responsible for the Boston LRVs seen during the 70s and 80s on the Green Line)
As a matter of fact, when I took my excursion on the SOAC cars the PR crew was handing out a brouchure that detailed all the features and vital stats on the cars.
Doug
> sorry to point it out, but the SOAC cars were built by the
> Vertol Division of Boeing Aircraft and not St. Louis Car
Before any more misinformation is spread, here's a quote from the USDOT/FTA:
"Boeing Vertol was retained as a Systems Manager for the SOAC and related work. Boeing contracted with St. Louis Car Company to build two rapid transit cars based on "BART or better" technology. St. Louis was building R-42 series cars for New York at that time, so an R-42 frame was used for the frame."
For more SOAC info see http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/soac.html
-Dave
Dave,
Did you know that a two car prototype of SOAC was built and never ran on tracks? In fact, it has rubber tires and was brought to Rochester, NY in 1973 and displayed downtown. There was a high density and low density car. The model, prototype was full scale. I have pictures of it. NEAT STUFF. I wonder where it is today?
There is a two unused tracks and dead end tunnel at second avenue on F train. In my mind they should built the tunnel under Houston st to F.D.R. Drive or to Brooklyn. They should built two station on Houston st. What are they (MTA) waiting for? Do they ran out of money to built tunnel under Houston st?
This was supposed to be a part of the IND Second System. It was to go under the river to a large station on the Brooklyn side at South 4th Street, near the Williamsburg bridge. They have covered up the tunnel with corrugated metal after having found homeless people taking up residence in there.
Wayne
The two tracks were the terminal tracks for the F train before the Chrystie St. connection was built and the D used the Culver line. Back then, the Broadway/Lafayette express tracks ran straight through to Second Ave., but now, they can only be accessed via the local tracks.
There was one proposal back in the 70s to loop a line from the 14th St. L, starting at 8th Ave., down Ave. C and then back up to the Houston-2nd Ave. Station, but it never came to much, and I don't remember if that was supposed to be the terminal point, or if the line would loop back over itself at 14th St. and Sixth Ave. and head uptown (doing that certainly would have made it unique among all lines in the city).
The RTA plan also calls for a line coming off 14th St. and going down Ave. C, but it would continue south on Pitt St. and not curve back up Houston St., so as far as I know, those tracks aren't going to used for revenue service anytime in the future.
While rumaging through the dark and dusty archives I can accross a list of the offical Chrystie St car assignments for rush hour service.
Some might find it of interest:
A 370 R-10,10 R1-9
AA/B/TT 216-R-32, 88 R 1-9
CC 220 R 1-9
D 310 R-32, 100 R 1-9
E 370 R 1-9,50 R-38
F 340 R 1-9, 90 R-38
GG 160 R 1-9
HH 10 R 1-9
JJ (Bway-Bklyn) 84 AB
LL 114 AB
M 42 AB
MJ 48 Q
N 120 R-27/30, 16 R-32
NX 40 R-38
QB/QJ/RJ/JJ(weekend) 10 R-11,180 R-16, 114 R-27/30
RR 264 R 27/30
SS Culver 2 AB
SS Franklin 9 AB
Keep in mind this was what was needed for rush hour service, not total cars assigned.Info comes from old ERA Bulletin.
Regards, Redbird
What an interesting piece of trivia! I'm curious about one thing: in every NX photo, the only cars I've seen assigned to it were R-27/30s. Were the R-38s assigned to the NX initially and subsequently reassigned? I never rode on it, so I only have photos to go by.
Steve: I think I have that photo.Its shows an R27/30 at Times Square signed up for the NX Brighton Beach. There is also a blue disc with the letters NX chained to the front of the train. This was done because not all the cars had the proper roll signs. The NX originally used R-38's,then R-32's but by Janaury the R-27/30's had pretty much taken over.The thing to remember about the post-Chrystie St days was that regardless of the official car assignment there was so much confusion over the new routes that almost any car could be found anywhere.
The NX was a real treat to ride as many of use had never ridden the Sea Beach express tracks having been too young to remember the old Franklin-Nassau service.(forget remember,we were not born). We also had the feeling that the NX would not be around for very long which it wasn't.It only lasted until April 1968.
Their were two problems with riding the NX service in the PM rush.
1) upon reaching 59 St-4 Av the conductor would announce that we would
be going to run local to Coney Is
2) upon reaching Coney Is usually on Tk A there would be a long wait to be routed up the Brighton Line.
Best wishes,Redbird
Did the NX really run local to Coney Island during PM rush hours? Or should I say, did all NX trains do so? That would defeat the whole purpose of having that route. Perhaps it was a harbinger of things to come. The R-27/30s in the photos I've seen all had "NX" on their front route curtains, as well as the blue NX disk on the guard chains.
Steve: The NX wasn't suppossed to run local from 59 St to Coney, but what would happen is for one reason or another the N would be late and the NX would be converted to a local.
Redbird
Interesting list, but what about the EE? Wasn't that part of the immediate post-Chrystie St. schedule? I'm surprised it's not listed.
Opps: The EE was assigned 176 R 1/9's. Sorry for the omission.
Redbird
I want to know when the R142 or 143 subway cars deliver? How do they deliver the subway cars to track??
Some one told me that R44/46 can't fix in Jamaica el and Canarsie line. Why???
75-foot cars like the R46 and R68/68A's can't navigate some of the tighter turns on the BMT Eastern Division without bumping into things...including each other! Thus, only 60-foot cars are used there.
[75-foot cars like the R46 and R68/68A's can't navigate some of the tighter turns on the BMT Eastern Division without bumping into things...including each other! Thus, only 60-foot cars are used there.]
I believe that 75-footer actually *can* run on the Eastern Division lines, but doing so is impractical (though not impossible) because the trains would have to take some of the curves at very slow speeds and two trains couldn't pass on another on opposite tracks in those areas.
R-46s blink on and off
R46 doesn't blink on and off.
R-46s definitely do not blink on and off but I'm really starting to wish that you'd blink off (or maybe something other that blink)
I suppose the construction on the Connection Between Howard Beach (A) and the Airtrain Has Begun (The Long Term Parking Lot Is Getting Torn Up) It looks like the Air Train Will Run on an El Made Up Of two concrete posts much like the monorail at Newark. Two Holes Evenly spaced have been dug up in a line through the parking lot.
A tunnel is being dug west of Terminal 9. Piles are being installed in a path 90-100' apart east from here to Terminal 8.
Hi guys,
I'm new to this group and just want to say that this is an awesome forum. Whoever masterminded this message board, kudos to you!
It is no secret that the redbirds on the 2, 4, 5, 6(some) and 7 lines are headed for retirement (a.k.a.- srapyard, ocean-dump, etc)- my question is when. I am so saddened by this. I am not currently in NYC but will fly up there in a flash if someone tells me that these cars are leaving the system in 1999.
Please help me with this rumour; I have heard that the R-33/36 redbird cars on the Flushing #7 line will be sticking around for a few more years. Can anyone please confirm or refute this rumour. If this is true..........yeahhhhhhhhhhhhh! This gives me plenty of time to take more videofootage of one of my favorite subway lines in the city.
If the MTA was smart, they might want to retain a few R-29/33/36 train sets for nostalgic reasons (not just one of each car and dump them under Court Street in Brooklyn at the Transit Museum). Sheesh...
Cheers,
MIKE
The redbirds are an endangered species and will begin to leave the system later this year. About 150 or so I think are satying around a little longer to serve as "excess" for the increase in ridership that NYC Transit has seen. I'm not sure how many of these cars will join the "museum" fleet, if any.
I AM sure, though, that the NY Division ERA will have "Farewell to the R-xx" fantrips when these cars start being retired.
--Mark
Mike: I'm not certain of the exact date but the first of the new cars should start arriving before the end of the year. The ACF R-26 and R-28 will probably be retired first. The R-142's will be arranged in five car sets so its likely that they will be assigned to the mainline first, thereby giving the Flushing cars a little more time. However some of the R-142's will have to be aranged in six car sets for the #7 and when this occurs the Flushing cars will go too. If you have the opportunity take pictures now because these plans could change.
Best Wishes,Redbird
Okay....some of these beautiful subway cars might be retired by the end of the year. I will make a trip to NYC before year's end to take some video shots and some still shots. Thanks for this information!
Cheers,
MIKE
Mike: Its sounds as though you plan to vist New York to have one last look at the Redbirds.Here's the most recent car assignment,courtesy of the NYD Bulletin:
#2 310 R-33
#4 60 R-33 and 10 R-36
#5 90 R-26,80 R-28,100 R-29,30 R-33
#6 100 R-29,20 R-33, 50 R-36 (both ML and WF)
#7 39 R-33WF, 290 R-36 WF
Bear in mind these are the cars required for rush hour service, the total actually assigned to each line is somewhat higher.There is some question about the R-36 train assigned to the #4 line. Neither Wayne nor I have yet to spot it.By the way we might say that the R-26's and R-28's are adopted "Redbirds" They only came by that title after the GOH. The R-29,R-33 ML and R-36 ML were the original" Redbirds." The R-33WF and R-36WF were originally the "Bluebirds" but are now also in the red paint scheme.If I can help with any info don't hesitate to ask.
Regards,Redbird R-33
I know this may seem like a dumb question, but...
What is GOH?
Forgive the shorthand. GOH refers to General Overhaul which was a mid life rebuilding of many of the older subway cars in the late 80's and early 90's.
Regards,Redbird
Thanks a million for this information!!!! I really really miss the "blue birds" from the World's Fair days. I fondly remember riding them on the Flushing Line- too bad they have that drab red slapped all over them today.
Aren't the 7000-series R26 cars? If so, I have seen **plenty** of them on the #5 line. I will definetely ride that subway line because, if my memory serves me correctly, these are the oldest subway cars in revenue service today.
Cheers,
MIKE
7050 - 7299 were R-21s
7300 - 7749 were R-22s
7750 - 7859 are R-26s
7860 - 7959 are R-28s
Mike: R-26 7750-7859, R-28 7860-7959. I believe these are the last ACF Rapid Transit Cars still in service.
Best Wishes,Redbird
Hi everone!
Another rumour circulating.......the MTA has placed subway cars (fully operational) onto the auction block for museums, collectors, enthusiasts to bid on in the past. Is this true? If so, how much did some of these subway cars go for? A source told me at that there were several fully-operational subway cars sold nearly 15 years ago for a whopping $1,500 per car!!! I am not sure if I believe this but I am very encouraged if this is true.
A guy I befriended at NJTransit told me that some of those beautiful 1940s PCC cars (on the Newark Subway Line) will be heading out to auction early next year. Just imagine....private individuals owning vintate PCC cars. Very plausible. This happened all the time back in the 1960s/1970s with old streetcars. Heck, you could find them in people's backyards all across this country.
How many of you guys would bid for a MTA subway car or a NJTransit PCC car?
Cheers,
MIKE
OK - Here are the facts:
#1 Any time something is retired, the MTA will accept bids to sell them off. Usually that means as-is where-is.
As-is usually means stripped of anything the TA wishes to keep
Where-is usually means Bush Terminal, though some cars are dumped off elsewhere.
Usually a big scrap dealer will bid on the whole lot (Does the name NIMCO or Naparano mean anything to you)
Bids from individuals looking for 50 or 60 foot tool sheds are usually not accepted, due to the issue of moving the remains within the allotted time, and the fact that most subdivisions consider junk subway cars unsightly as yard ornaments.
Museums such as Trolley Museum of NY, Seashore and Shore Line will often bid individual cars which are still in service. These organizations have a good reputation for removing their purchases from TA property in a timely manner and the TA will not strip these cars. Unfortunately the TA accepts High Bid so the museums have to bid artificially high to outbid the scrap dealer.
At the last NY Transit Museum Auction & Tag Sale, one R-21 car converted to work service was available for bidding. The requesting opening bid was $3,000. There were no takers. Even if there were, shipping and handling are up to you.
A fully functional "new look" bus sold for $750 and a FOrd van sold for $500.
--Mark
Huh??? $750.00 for a fully functional "new look" bus (I gather GMC versus Flxible). That's great. And I thought I had a great deal buying my two GMC fishbowls/new looks for just over $1,000 apiece. Of course, a GMC from NYC was subjected to much much more stress than a GMC from Kentucky. There is a tradeoff.
Cheers,
MIKE
PS- I think I'm going to pay close attention to the next MTA auction- uh, the 15th of this month, I believe.
6398 was sold to us for a mere $600. The ordeal began when a small group of us decided to "save" a second generation car. After a good deal of debate we settled on an R16. We found many of them in Coney Island. After selecting one that we felt was the most viable, the purchase was attepted. Transit told us that those cars had already been sold. so we contacted the scrap dealer and that's how we got such a low price. Shipping is the real nightmare: almost $6,000.
Then, if you plan on running the olg girl, you have to secure a reasonable supply of parts. Not just the consumables like Brake shoes and motor brushes either. There's relays and valves, door motors and glass. The list is unending. From late 1987 until now, 6398 is just now almost ready to be displayed. She was ALWAYS ready to run!
When I rode the PCCs in Newark last December, I was told that they have already been sold, as-is-where-is, to San Francisco MUNI for operation out there. Apparently they will join the ex-Philadelphia cars that SF has bought and be painted in any paint scheme other than one they originally wore.
I asked a question here a while ago about how third-rail work on the MFL was related to the new M-4 trainsets. I finally found out the answer, and I thought I'd post it in case anyone else was curious.
Apparently, the work they are doing is mostly lengthening the third-rail gaps. That is, shortening the ends of the third rail, so that there is a larger length of track with no third-rail power.
The reason for this is that while the old M-3 cars had independent power systems, M-4s share third-rail power between married pairs.
The reason there are gaps in the third rail to begin with is so that they can shut off a section of track in either direction without killing power to the rest of the line. To make this work, the gaps have to be long enough so that a car cannot bridge the circuit between two sections of third rail.
So since married pairs in the new trains share a common power bus, the danger is that, while moving accross a gap, they would create a circuit and electrify a portion of rail that was supposed to be turned off. Therefore, the need to lengthen the gaps from one car-length to two.
Speaking of the MFSL , when does the new concrete structure work
begin (from 46th st. west)? They are tearing down the steel structure in favor a center truss type support, opening the light to a dreary Market St!
Chuck Greene
It was supposed to have began July '98!
But you know SEPTA.
The politicians have gotten into the act and are trying to turn this into a major job issue for their constituents. There is no telling when it will happen at this point. Best guess would be no work starting before the end of this year, considering that design work is only about halfway done at this point.
I have one question. When I ride the BSL, i noticed at the fromt of the train is a round disc which is hollow and points in the direction of the train. It looks like an arm or something, but it is folded in on the cars that re hooked together in the middle of the train. Can you please tell me what that arm is for....an emergency brkae or something??
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say, if I'm not mistaken, that
it's the antenna for the 2 way radio. Bob?
You are looking at the identa-loop. It is set by the train operator to one of 9 different frequencies. It allows for automatic train routing.
April 15, 1990
The JFK Express service has been discontinued.
September 30, 1990
N service returns to Manhattan Bridge.
B replaces Q service to Queensbridge evenings.
R service to 179 Street rush hours.
J service cut back to Canal Street weekends
3 service between 148 St & 135 St closed at night
How lucky to find this site again. I'll tell my story.
Last fall due to scheduled maintenance the IRT 2 and 3 trains were rerouted on a least one weekend. Returning one night to the upper west side from Atlantic Avenue, per instructions we were instructed to take a Manhattan-bound 3 train and change for the 2 at Bowling Green on the Lexington Avenue line. At Bowling Green we waited for the 2, which arrived on the same track as the 3, but headed in the opposite direction. I figured the 2 would take us back to Brooklyn, switch onto the 7th Ave. IRT tracks and proceed up the west side.
Surprise, surprise! We didn't return to Brooklyn. The wheels screeched as we rode at half speed around a long wide curve; through a rear car window I could see the first car (just like the fabled horse shoe curve on the old Pennsylvania RR near Johnstown, PA). Finally the mystery solved itself as the train whistled, then entered the South Ferry station without stopping.
Wow! That was a first for me. I'd never known there was a tunnel connecting South Ferry and Bowling Green.
Some of the mavens who haunt this site must know more about the the B.G - S.F. connection. Please tell me.
Thanks
The connection you speak of has always been there. In fact, South Ferry opened in 1905 as part of the Contract Two line which extended from Brooklyn Bridge and eventually reached Atlantic Ave. in Brooklyn. There is an abandoned inner loop station platform which was used by a shuttle until it stopped running in 1977; the inner loop track is still used by 5 trains when they're not running to Brooklyn.
It is possible for a West Side train to enter South Ferry on the outer loop track and wind up on the East Side; conversely, an East Side train can enter South Ferry on the inner loop track and wind up on the West Side. There are crossover switches before and after the station platforms: outer loop to inner loop before the station, inner loop to outer loop after the station. At Bowling Green, there is a switch just south of the station; Brooklyn-bound trains bear left while 5 trains using the loop bear right.
Unless there has been some very recent track changes at South Ferry all trains must use the outer loop to switch from one line to another.Only Lexington Av trains can use the inner loop and if they arrive on the inner loop they can only return back to the Lexington Av Line.
Regards,Redbird
You're probably right. I was going by what I have personally observed while riding on 1 trains around the loop, most recently last fall. I do know that there is a switch from the inner to the outer loop track before the station , and immediately after leaving the station on the outer loop track, there is a switch from the outer to the inner loop track.
There is a GO in effect until mid-march that requires 2 trains between 11pm and 5am to loop South Ferry. So far, I've made this formerly unique trip 5 times. And you have your crossovers reversed. There is one crossover between the inner loop lead (Bowling Green Shuttle track) and the outer loop station before the platform, and a second crossover from the outer loop station to the inner loop (Bowling Green northbound track)
Trains will cross from the express to the local at either 34st of Chambers St (depending upon the work between 14st and Chambers), skipp all local stops, loop South Ferry on the oter track, and cross to the Bowling Green lead just past the end of the platform. It then skips Bowling Green, and reverses at Wall St. Leaving Wall St Brooklyn bound, the train will cross to the southbound track before stopping at Bowling Green, and then make all 4 train stops to Atlantic Ave.
-Hank
"The very word 'subway' terrifies people north of Yonkers and east of Jamaica, where they believe its the name of the most sinister place in creation. Instead, a train crashes and crawling
through the rubble are the men and women who cause the sun to rise in New York."
- Jim Dwyer, New York Newsday, 6 June 1995
"Annually, the subway uses 1.8 billion killowatt hours - enough to light up the City of Buffalo for a year."
- From "NYC Transit's Facts & Figures"
"The Mission of NYC Transit is to achieve excellence in providing a safe, orderly, customer-friendly, cost-effective, public transportation system."
- From "New York City Transit's Facts & Figures"
"An asshole is someone who drives from one Manhattan location to another."
- Ellen E.M. Roberts, volunteer with the Committee for Better Transit, quoted in New York magazine, 25 September 1995
"If the New York City subways were subsidized to the same level as PATH trains are subsidized, no one would pay a single penny to ride on the New York City subway system and
everybody would be given a free newspaper and a free cup of coffee."
- Mayor Rudi Giuliani, quoted in the New York Times 26 September 1995
"Tizzadowntonumerixtraintobooklinbidgecityall. Stankearodaclodingoors."
- Heard on a downtown 6 train
"As New York approaches the 21st century, it is time to equip the greatest city in the world with the finest transportation network in the world."
- Gov. George Elmer Pataki quoted in New York Times 4 May 1996
"With the new cuts in token clerks, rush-hour lines at some subway booths have grown distressingly long, echoes of shops in communist Bulgaria after word went out that a shipment of
meat was in."
- Clyde Haberman in The New York Times NYC Column 4 May 1996
"Certainly, New York's transit system - by far the largest and most heavily used in the nation - is not like any other. That perhaps makes the experience of other cities less illuminating
since the sheer scale and passenger volume in New York means that it will write its own history, as it always has."
- Kirk Johnson in the The New York Times 10 December 1997
(Did you compile that yourself or is it a copyright violation from somewhere?)
I got the quotes from a website somewhere, I can't recall which one. I suppose out of fairness I should have listed the compiler of the quotes, but I didn't have the name on hand. I don't believe that it is a copyright violation however. :-)
Just thought it would amuse...
A friend of mine said that the 7000-series redbirds found exclusively on the #5-Dyre Avenue line arrived in New York City in 1959. Is this fact or fiction? If so, these must be the oldest rapid rail cars in the entire United States still running in revenue service. I think Philadelphia just retired their old 1959 Market-Frankfort Elevated cars.
Gosh, I need to get up to NYC fast to catch these cars before their scrapped/dumped into the ocean/whatever...
Cheers,
MIKE
Thats TRUE! The first R-26'S WITCH Are on the No. 5 line where
arived in 1959 and the rest in 1960.
What is your favorite subway car (past or present)?
It's tough for me to nail down one series but I would consider two subway cars: the R38 and the R-17
The R-38, still seen on the A-train on the Far Rockaway branch is a wonderful car. Though, I **hate** what Knudson-Morrison (??) did by replacing the roll signs with ineffective mattrix signs. Same thing was done with the similarly styled R-32 cars (except R-32s didn't have the border around the signs). I also miss the original metal strap hangers.
The R-17 was so unique to me on the IRT line. I really liked the "circle" windows on the doors. I remember them running under Eastern Parkway in Brooklyn way back when. Gee- when were these cars retired anyway?
Cheers,
MIKE
My favorite subway car is the Gibbs Hi-V used on the Contract One IRT before they were modified with center doors, anti-climber and H2A coupler.
Nah, the R-17 is still cooler. They should do another car with those way cool round windows - it really makes the cars look neat.
Favorite currently running stuff is the #7 stuff, or the R-32 (brightliners)
Favorite commuter stuff is the ACMU :)
My favortie Subway Car is R26/28/29 because is classes subway cars and is redbird. I love riding on redbird becasue i feel confortable.
I love riding the New York Subway because the rough ride makes me feel like I'm getting my $1.50 worth. A smooth riding subway car is like sitting in your living room. I love to ride the R62 and R62A cars on the Lexington Avenue Line through the 1908 Joralemon Street tube. COOOOL
My favorite subway car is the R-40 slant. They were on the L, N and Q lines. The interiors were the same as the R-32.
Now THERE is a man after my own heart! I don't carry the monicker that I do for nothing! My favorite cars, from the very first moment I laid eyes on them (August 3, 1968), are the Loewy-Snaith designed and St.Louis Built (Sumitomo gets credit for the nice rebuild) Slant R40.
BTW there are subtle difference between the interiors of R32 and R40.
Look - the grab bars are different across from and behind the cabs.
AND they were kind enough to leave the long front windows when they rebuilt them. I've kind of gotten use to the hardware they carry on their "A" ends (safety first!) though I was shocked when I first saw it. They still lack grab handles between the "B" ends, making it unwise to cross between cars while in motion (not a good idea, anyway)
Wayne |MrSlantR40\
Wayne: We could almost make the slant R-40's an honorary Gate car.
Those front porches they have are so big you could set up a barbecue on them.
Best Wishes, Redbird
My favorites are still the R-33WF/R-36WF with the low door windows, those the original slant R-40s with A-C hold a special place in my heart (especially running F express in Brooklyn during the early 70s)
My favorite subway cars is R26/28/29,42,46,62,68 very slow,110a. I never took the R110b. Some day i will take R110b train for a ride.
I love the R 33s on the No. 2+5 lines because of
the Cobra Brakes and my dad loves the Low V because it was like his first car
I love the R 33s on the No. 2+5 lines because of
the Cobra Brakes and my dad loves the Low V because it was like his first car
Well, then you should love all the cars because since the Tiger Shoes were de-certified, the Cobra Shoe is the only one we use on any revenue car.
WOW. I didn't know that. Thanks for the Info. Steve
I like R-33s, R-26s, and R-62s. I mostly like that equipment because they run on my favorite lines (the 4, 5, and 6).
I like the redbirds, which run on the #4 train my other way to Bedford Park Blvd, cause there is no full width cab so i can look out the front window as we come out of 149th street to go above ground to Yankee Stadium at 161st Street.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
The Redbirds are a sentimental favorite of mine, too. When I was in the city last fall, I wound up taking a number of 2 trains which, of course, are made up entirely of R-33 Redbirds. You should have seen me as one of those trains would pull into the station; you would have thought I was talking to my now-four-month-old nephew: "Hello, Redbirds, hello, Redbirds.."
The Triplex units also had spacious porches, so much so that the storm doors were kept locked to discourage horseplay. At least that's what I've read. Perhaps one of our Subtalkers who remembers the Triplexes can verify if this is true.
Several months ago, Ford Motor Co. of England chartered the D types for a few nights to transport some of its' employees to the Transit Museum for a catered buffet dinner. Two D type units were used (6 cars) and the storm doors were not locked... As for them in revenue service, I don't remember them being locked then either.
Steve: When they were in revenue service the end doors were locked because of the large space at the car ends. As you say they did have big front porches that would have done an R-40 proud.
Best Wishes,Redbird
Mr. Slant40, although I applaud your loyalty, remember those lame porches begat locked "storm" doors until the second level safety bars were added. And frankly theyu should have simply gone back for more 32's which are the best hardware, although my sentimental faves are 1-9's "and the allnight girls and their escapades out on the D train"
I think somebody messed up in planning for the cars. Don't forget, the same fellow who designed the GG1 (Raymond Lowery) came up with the slant concept. It was a good idea, but nobody put 2+2 together till the cars came in. Hence, that large gap between the coupled #1 ends. Another problem was and still is the car wash brushes not being able to "wind into" the slanted ends. The ends never seem to get cleaned properly. They are a fine piece of equipment to operate, but regretably, the bodies are beginning to show signs of old age.
Ironically, once the MTA put in the 75-footers and the transverse cabs with the debut of the R-44s, five years after the R-40s arrived, it would have been possible to build cars with the slanted fronts (at least at the cab ends of an A-B-B-A unit) and not have to add all the safety devices, since all the doors are locked and the motorman and conductor have access to both sides of the train from the single cab.
Or, they could have gone to the more modified slant used by the Expo 67 cars in Montreal (slants were obviously the `in' thing in terms of design in the mid-60s)
slants were obviously the `in' thing in terms of design in the mid-60s) yeah, just look at the junk BART bought with NON-coupling slant noses so thwt have to splice trains to increase length. At least they figured that out on the last two orders. The one really neat thing about the 40's was the giant route sign with light up so you could see from a distance where the train was going.
I vivdly remember the first time I saw a train of slant R-40s. It was an F train at 34th St. At that time, I had gotten used to looking above the storm door for the route sign, and failed to notice the huge magenta F on this particular train. My mother had to point this out to me! My sister got a big kick out of those cars when they were new; we even rode an F once from 34th to 42nd because she wanted to ride on one of those trains.
It wasn't too long after that when E trains of slants began to appear at 42nd St. on Saturdays. Because of my extreme reluctance to take any E train at all, it wasn't until 1978 that I would ride the slants again - this time on an A train.
My favorite car(s) were the R1/9's and also the R10, true venerable workhorses of the IND. Both the Hi and Lo "V"'s are my favs on the Old IRT equipment...hauling down Lex on the Exp between 14th and Bklyn Bridge, really neat! Also getting to watch the switchman throw the switch at the junction where the 145 St spur leaves the Bronx-bound Lenox line. One thing in common back before lettered signs were the changeable dome lights (red, green, clear(lunar), and yellow. If I am correct, these were set according to line and destination so that when a train approached a switching point, the controlling switchman would know the correct routing according to the lights on the train - of course this is prior to installation of the routing buttons, and stackable interlocking routings. There used to be a sign at 179th St for the "E" trains, since they had so varied an itinerary (Chambers/WTC;Euclid;Far Rockaway;Rockaway Pk) which had the combinations for the dome lights listed.
But I do say I did like the Slant R40's - even before I knew what BART was!
Well, there are alot to choose from. But THE subway car -- or actually series of car -- at the top of my list is the sharp looking R-38. It stands out for it's semi-fluted sides, and outline detail around the standard roof-end lights and destination sign treatment. Not to mention the later delivery came of these cars were the first with factory installed A/C. The R-38s had an "ultra-modern" look that would only be out done by the R-40s -- my next favorite car (Hey Wayne!)
I have a sentimental attachment to the R1-R9 series, which were just fading out as I was growing up. To many people, they were just old, ugly and in lousy condition, but I found them exciting, and the sounds they made (especially during acceleration) were neater than anything.
Yes, ten of the R38 came with A/C: 4140 thru 4149.
Buffalo Transit/GE did a SUPER job on the interiors of the R38! I rode on #3980 (going) and #4130 (coming - at the RF window) last Thursday on the Fulton Street "A" express. I like the soft light from the backlit advertising panels (like the R62s), the curly bars and the smooth interior surfaces. They are fast, smooth and remarkably quiet.
The R38 still use the classic font on the exterior number plaques and the digital signs are easier to read than those on the R32. I like that decal they have on the front.
Of course, IMHO, nothing beats a Slant R40, especially if it is an "L" train. Maybe they can get the nice lighting treatment during their next GOH. (Wishful thinking!)
Wayne (MrSlantR40)
I wish the lighting used on the R-110A would be used on the 40-42's because that is reminiscent of their original lighting. (The current lighting is more like R-10--36, and is the same as the GOH of those cars) I hope they do that on the next GOH
The Gibbs Hi-Vs had center doors installed early on, around 1910 or thereabouts, so unless you're old enough to remember the first few years of subway operation, one is forced to rely on photographs. According to Gene Sansone, they spent almost their entire careers in local service, presumably because the narrow vestibule doors would restrict loading and unloading.
Though, I **hate** what Knudson-Morrison (??) did by replacing the roll signs with ineffective mattrix signs.
I should point out that Morrison Knudsen did not overhaul the R-38s. They were done by Buffalo Transit Systems. The snd signs are referred to as flip-dot signs too.
As for a favorite subway car, I have 4. The first would be the BMT 'D' types, the subway car of my youth. Can't tell you how many AMs I started of on one of them, heading for Brooklyn Tech and ended up cutting school to ride all day.
Second is the R-11/R-34 especially after converted to R-34s. Loved the look of the car (exterior) especially the highly visible calipers. The cars uniqueness were their appeal. I still catch a peek whenever I'm at Livingston Plaza.
Third was the R-33/R36 Worlds Fair cars. By far the prettiest car built for the NYCT. T'is a shame that the original paint was destroyed.
4th is the R-46 for obvious reasons. Clearly the most visually pleasing interiors in the entire system and also will prove to be the most enduring car. New in 1975 and overhailed in 1990/91, I expect these cars to see a second overhaul in 2006/7. They will then see at least another 20 years of service.
IRT Lo-Vs and IND R1-9s
I agree with you.
BMT Standards - no contest! I also loved the Q-cars on the Myrtle Ave. El, even though they were so slow. (Oh-oh, I think I just dated myself!)
I don't think anything could ever compare for sheer beauty with the BMT's Clark-built pre-war Compartment cars, the 'Bluebirds.' With their big, picture windows, railfan seats, red asphalt floor tile, tan mohair seats, PCC lights, mirrored panels on either side of the articulation sections, and their blue (two shades) and cream outsides, they were a treat to look at and to ride. It's interesting that Clark never built another transit car--nothing could have matched those.
It's a real shame that at least one of them wasn't saved, but then they would have embarrassed later cars. Of the post-war cars, I was also very fond of R-10s, R-15s, R-16s, and R-17s, and if R-44, R-46, and R-62s had rattan or foam rubber seats, I might have liked them, too..
From growing up with them, I always liked BMT Standards, Triplexes, and the gate el cars on the Culver and Myrtle service as well. What I disliked intensely was the introduction of longitudinal seating on IND/BMT routes and the use of the back-breaking (and bottom-sliding) fiberglass seats.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
I always had a soft spot for the R-42 and R-62. In terms of appearance I think the R-46 is clearly the best looking car.
My favorite is a tossup between the R-1/9s and R-10s. The former with their throbbing compressors, distinctive brake and door sounds, and the unforgettable growling, moaning, groaning, and whining of their traction motors. The latter with their synonimous association with my all-time favorite route, the A line, along with the fastest doors in New York, plus the way they would flat out rocket along CPW on that express jaunt.
Since those cars are no longer on the transit scene, my vote now goes to the R-32s and R-38s.
My vote is for the R1/9's, partly for what Steve B just said, and partly because that's what I grew up with.
I agree with you. I like the R1-9 series. They operate with a "meatball" in each journal box and I like the roar they make on acceleration.
I've always liked the R11 and R15 for their double circle window designs on the doors. I also really like the R110a for its futuristic design, even though the seats are uncomftorable.-Nick
I would nominate the R-40M (and R-42 and R-44) as the worst subway car in the system. Ugly, ugly, ugly.... I hated them on the L-Canarsie Line (heck, I think the R-42s are still there). However, I did like the R-40 slanted ends from 1968 or so. Don't ask.....
The R-10s were neat since they were so old (mid 1940s, I believe) but they were so darn loud on the A-train (Lefferts Blvd). In fact, I thought these were the loudest subway cars in the system. Though, I did like the little ceiling fans in the R-10s...nice nostalgic touch.
Cheers,
MIKE
The worst subway car is one with Graffiti and Scatchitti and break down in the tunnel.
The R42 (or the R40M for that matter) won't win any beauty contests, but they sure are durable. There are several hundred prowling the Eastern Division (J,M,L,Z). Note that the R40M's front window is a little smaller and higher than the R42.
AND there are six trains of Slant R40 running merrily up and down Ye Olde Canarsie Line.
Wayne /MrSlantR40\
> The R42 (or the R40M for that matter) won't win any beauty contests,
I think the R40 modified/R42 front end is probably the nicest of them all! I especially liked them with the blue stripe and large alphabet soup signs. The little signs aren't as nice, and the all steel look lacks something. The original scheme was very clean, no clutter like the R40/slants.
Yes, I agree! The old paint scheme and sign style was MUCH better. They kind of look too plain without the blue stripes and doors. Ahh, what a little bit of paint can do..
Hey the "KK" is that #4918 or #4912 ("Take A Letter, Maria...", 11/04/1969)?
Wayne
The KK in the picture is #4921.
If 60 foot cars run on the Eastern Division, then an 8 car train would be 480' as opposed to an 8 car train of R-44/46/68(536 feet) that cannot run there. They do run 67' cars on the Eastern Division lines, right or just the 60 footers?
And basically, my question is how many cars compose an Eastern Division train? Do they alternate train lengths?
The only limitation on 60 foot cars is platform length, and I think most are the normal 600 feet. The problem with the 75' cars is clearance on curves. Those east of Alabama Av. on the J and some in the tunnel on the L are the culprits. I am not sure if the curve into Delancy-Essex is also a problem. 67 foot cars worked with no problems, but the 75 footers are just a tad too big.
Eastern Division platforms will accommodate 8-car trains of 60-footers, which works out to a minimum of 480 feet. 6-car trains of 67-foot BMT standards was the norm on the Canarsie line, as I recall, which comes out to 402 feet. An 8-car train of standards added up to 536 feet, which was the approximate original length of Southern Division platforms.
My vote for the worst subway car today would be a tossup between the R-44 and the R-68. They remind me of wallowing beached whales as they huff and puff along. The R-16s could outrun the R-68s, IMHO. That's saying something.
If you had asked me the same question in 1967, I would have said BMT standards, hands down. The first time I laid eyes on them, at Broadway Junction on the Canarsie line on July 20 of that year, I thought, sheesh, where did they come from? No signs up front, three sets of doors instead of four, who are they trying to kid? The only redeeming factor was that their motors sounded exactly the same as those on the R-1/9s, which I had fallen in love with.
Let's just say I have a more positive feeling about the BMT standards now.
my vote for the worst subway car(presently in service)is the R-68as.why,you ask? what a poor braking train!!! they are VERY hard to operate,with brakes that are slow to apply,and then you have applied to much brake,and then they are slow to release.what a pain in the brake handle! the R-68s,by comparison,are a much smoother braking train.however,the cadillac of the nyc subway system has been,and will continue to be the R-46s.with a roomy cab,good brakes and some speed too.if you think im wrong,then why have the R-46s continue to operate in just about the same assignments 20 years after they were built? as for the R-44s they probably have operated better then they ever have.one question though,why couldnt the TA spring for a few extra dollars when they rebuilt them and push that tiny cab back a few feet just like the R-46s? im a tall guy,and fitting behind that console is a tad uncomfortable,to say the least.but as for the R-68as the B-line can keep them! besides,R-40s express on the Brighton line...you cant beat that in 1999!
The R-16 and its spiritual heir, the R-68, have been the ones I least wanted to see coming out of the darkness. Slow, slow, slow, though the R-16 did have the advantage of rocking so hard from side to side at times you wondered if it would chip off a piece of tunnel wall.
The worst subway cars i ever take? It R10 back in 1986 i took a "C" train to school and i hate those R10 because it very loud and i have to cover my ear for next four stop. i got off and my ear start to ringing because of R10. That was the only time i took the R10 also when i was little i took a R1/9 train on "F" line in the 70s. Well both of them are the worst train i ever took.
The R10's are great subway cars. They are the first cars with dynamic braking after the R1-9 series and the first cars with new technologies called the SMEE's. The R1-9's were AMUE's and were harder to brake with the manual lap position the ME23 brake valve. So the R10's were great for the motorman. I know they make noise but at least you will be getting your money worth from paying for that token. I like the IRT version of the R10 made my St. Louis Car Company in 1948 called the R12.
Do you know about the Million Dollar train? It's called the R11's which were the first attempt at corrugated stainless steel. One is in the Transit Museum in Brooklyn. Also, did you know that R7 car 1575 was in a wreck and was the prototype for the R10. It is not a SMEE. It resides in the New York Transit Museum.
When the 10 R-11's (8010-8019) were delivered from the Budd Company in 1949 they acquired a couple of nickname;"Super Duper Train" and "The Million Dollar Train."
1575 is a Pullman-Standard R-7A which was wrecked in 1946. It was rebuilt by ACF into the R-10 prototype. Although it lokks like an R-10 it can only mu and operate with the R-1/9's.
Redbird
When I was very young in Boston we still had cars on the Red Line which went back as far as 1911. They were loud! The 1963 replacements (01400s) were wonderful for about two weeks. Then they started falling apart and roared even louder than the cars they replaced. Those cars made anything in NYC look great!
You'd better not let W.A.Padron (Mr.R10) say that! [Just kidding! :o)]
Part of the charm of the R10 was the sound they made - HEAVY METAL!
The deafening roar of an R10 in full flight up Central Park West was
one of the most memorable sounds I can recall. Before the GOH in the 1980s some of the R10s were in sad shape. I can recall a few of them on the "GG" back in 1982 and 1983 - as slow as an oxcart, schmeered with graffitti, half the lights out. It was a sad commentary on the times. It is truly too bad (shame on somebody!) that the R10s were put out to pasture - at least SOME of them should have been saved -
enough of them to field a consist for the Nostalgia Train. Thank goodness the 1927 D-Types are still around for this purpose.
Wayne
The noise level wasn't all that bad inside the R-10s during their heyday on the A, even when rocketing along CPW; I never had to cover my ears on that express joyride. On the other hand, if you stood on the uptown platform at 81st St. when one of those trains thundered by, you got quite an earfull. Uptown expresses were running at full speed by the time they reached 81st; the R-1/9s on the D would be howling away at about F# above middle C - music to my ears.
Could someone cue up "Thanks for the Memories"? It can be with or without Bob Hope.
My 'worst' subway car would be the R-46, but for the technical reasons - not looks!
How about the worst looking one?
Exterior-wise, I vote for the R-40 Slants (sorry Wayne & Todd). One thing is for sure, few people are neutral about them. You either love em or hate em.
Interior-wise, R-62/62a/68/68a. It's like riding inside a tuna can. Absolutely no personality + they hide vandalism poorly.
The sheer ugliness of the Slant R40 with all that stuff on the front is the very thing that makes it beautiful! God Bless #4437 and the rest of her family (photo in the Canarsie Line page of this one
leaving Sutter)
Wayne MrSlantR40
My vote for ugliest car goes to the rebuilt R32s. Sorry,
but that end has to go. The rest of the car is OK. The
10 cars that GE rebuilt are OK too. Second place to the R42
..that coarse side fluting just reminds me of cheap 1970s
alumnimum siding. 40M's much better.
Ugliest interior: everything delivered with
the stainless steel interior. Enough said. Ugliest motorman's
cab: a tie between the R44 and R46. Sorry, that Cineston style
control handle just ruins the whole "Metropolitan" look.
The ugliest interior EVER was when the MTA repainted the R-1/9s in that light green with gray doors scheme back in the early 70s. A complete violation of the look the cars had for the first 30 years, and just a hair worse than they way the mainline IRT fleet looked when it was given the same treatment (added bouns ugly points for any train that had its interior car number stenciled in on the motorman's/conductor's cab wall)
I still think this color scheme gave all the graffiti artists in the early 70s their justification for spraypaintingt everything in sight. I would love to find out who at the MTA either thought those colors looked better than the original paint schemes the cars came with, or got a big kickback from some paint manufacturer for taking all that gray and green off his hands.
That sacrilege only happened to SOME of the R-7s and R-9s camped out at the Eastern Division. It was sure ugly, mint green interior with grey doors, grey seats, and white on the upper half of the car.
Now you've got me thinking - aside from the original battleship-grey interior color, what would have been a better color for an R-7 or R-9 type car? Any ideas?
Wayne
I think the blue scheme on the mainline R-33/36 would have looked good on the R-1/9s, if you matched it with the red padded seats instead of the yellow wicker.
I was thinking the MTA did that paint job to all the cars because I always saw that god-awful paint on the Sixth Ave. KK during rush hours. I forgot the KK was operating trains out of the East New York Yards.
One thing to amend: I forgot about the R-16s with the green/gray colors. Worse looking than the IRT due to the slanted panels for the door motors (allowing for more green paint that way), but not as bad as the R-7/9s, which struck me as part of the MTA's effort to erase much of the subway's history and put their own imprint on it (I include the MTA's replacing the traditional station tile with that blue/white cinder block-sized tile scheme on the BMT Broadway/Fourth Ave. lines as part of that plan)
Well, they DID un-do what was done to Cortlandt Street BMT station - there they have done a complete overhaul, including restoration and replacement of the original tile - cream yellow, dark green, maroon etc. with the "C" icon. They did a nice job of it. Ditto for Canal Street with the Chinese ideograph plaques and tablet (Chinese characters actually read "China" "Town"). They owe a few others the
benefit of this restoration.
Wayne
I like to split the MTA's management era into 1968-83 and 1983-99 in terms of management's concerns for the tradition of the system. They started painting the Redbirds red again at the time they did the overhauls, and decided to go back to the traditional New York City station design. Before then, it was blue-and-white on almost everything, with the occasional effort to do something different (49th and Brodway on the N/R, though those platforms are slippery when wet)
I always like to see the stations restored to look like they did when
they were first opened. Some of the IRT restorations are simply beautiful - Astor Place, 33rd Street, Franklin Street, 66th Street (almost finished), the Lenox Avenue line stations. Some of them, however went a little too far - 3rd Avenue/149th Street in particular. I do however think the mosaics (Una Raza, Un Mundo...) are very nice.
They buried the original terra-cotta work under a layer of plain red and white tile.
Wayne
Ah, but the R-1/9 as originally delivered had all-wicker seats.
How would a dark brown/cream/white paint scheme have looked?
And yes, the R16s were UGHLY in the lime green scourge - and the white paint that was daubed on their ceilings continues to peel to this very day.*
* 6387's ceiling is STILL peeling, but her interior is blue.
Wayne
Dark brown and white would have looked good, or even the light blue R-33/36WF light blue paint with the yellow wicker seats.
Why on earth did they ever paint the ceiling in the first place? Outside of the sooty R-38/R-40 fan vents, I never remember the ceilings being that dirty on the R-15 through R-32 cars with the imbedded fans.
Oh now you're stirring up some memories- Slant R40s with NO A/C roaring along Queens Boulevard on the F line, half their lights out and big black gobs of track dust and soot trailing from the fan vents, blackening the ceiling. Back in the summer of 1973 I was aboard one of these beasts (they are beasts no more) and one passenger appeared to be asleep holding onto a strap. We arrived at 71st-Continental Avenue
and as the crowd thinned to debark, this gentleman dropped to the car floor - unconscious. The crew was notified and sounded the 3-3 and they got him onto the platform and tried to revive him but he was gone; EMS didn't arrive for ten minutes or so. Apparently the other passengers were holding him up as they rode.
Wayne
Well, we may be going back in time. As of now, when the 63rd St. connector opens, the Q will likely be all Slant 40s (14 additional trains)running to Continental Avenue. Of course, they may be running local but either way, they'll be back in the Queens corridor...
So that REALLY has happened! I always thought that was one of those 'urban legends'.......
Yes, unfortunately, that DID happen. Those Non-A/C Slant R40s could be extremely uncomfortable in the summertime. I used to refer to them as "hotboxes", borrowing the railroading term for an overheated wheel journal, and applying it to what were then some of the most uncomfortable cars in the system during the summer months.
The A/C (#4350-4449) Slants, by comparison, were much, much better. I would always seek them out if there was one in the train (I was not alone). I had one favorite pair, #4412 and #4413, which wore a multicolored coat of Killer-I/Flint 707/Spin graffitti, intricately painted. I am pleased to say that these two (minus their coats of many colors) are still running merrily up and down their lastest route - the Olde Canarsie Line.
Wayne [MrSlantR40\
Say, Wayne, have you seen R-42s 4572-4573 lately? They were the ones used in The French Connection. I saw them a few years back on 6th Ave. How about R-32s 3350-3351? Last October they were seen on the E.
#4572-4573 were censused on Oct 31 1997 on the "J" s/bound at Chambers. They were re-spotted on the "J" again Sept 19 1998.
#3350-3351 (the original Brightliners) were spotted sleeping at Union Turnpike signed up as "E"s on Jan 9, 1999. It was censused on May 28 1998 at 34th St.Penn Station, also on the "E".
Wayne
Remember when the R-32 interiors were painted beige with the orange doors? Those were ugly!!
They were ugly on the stainless steel cars, but over on the IRT, the orange doors with the tan interiors were a vast improvement over the green-and-gray early 70s paint combo. Supposedly the orange-and-tan paint was more graffiti proof than the other paint, though it took the MTA a few more years to really get an effective war against the spray-painters going.
I seem to recall the light green shade being applied to the interiors of R-1s, R-4s, and R-6s, along with darker green on the door interiors. In fact, my IND signbox still has light green paint on what would have been the interior side. For a time, I thought about sanding that paint off and refinishing it, but I'll probably leave it be. My father likes to rest his feet on the top edge of the hinged lid when he shines his shoes...
The R-7s and R-9s had that light blue tint along with darker blue on the doors; Shore Line's 1689 still had that scheme in 1980.
For the record, does R-1 #100 have its original interior paint scheme?
You're right - those dopey, illegible pixel signs have got to go!! They should bring back the good old route and destination roller curtains which thankfully the Redbirds still have.
I still miss the blue doors on the R-32s....
Currently...mmmmmm....the 40s are kinda 'unique' with all that garbage on front...now if you wanna talk historically nothing beats the old BMT 'C' units for pure ugly..old rebuilt mismatched el cars....Yum! they look bad even with the haze of nostalgia...
The Guy from Upstate (for me, probably very 'downstate') is really right about the old BMT 'C' types being the ugliest cars ever run in New York. With their sheet-metal 'diaphragms' between cars (make-believe articulation), the exterior electric doors, and the sag in the middle of most of the cars--even without looking at a picture I can remember their ugliness.
And to think they ran alongside the Bluebirds, Zephyr, and the Green Hornet on Fulton Street. I rode them on Fulton Street and on the old rush-hour West End Shuttle. Ugly, ugly, ugly.
The doors on the Multi-Sections that separated the operator from the rest of the car were ugly, too, as I remember them. If the little window in the door didn't have glass, it would have looked like the food-passage opening to a maximum security prison cell in an old movie. And the left-over WWII khaki paint didn't help.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Ed,
I agree with you about the C cars. I understand that the motorman's cab was not moved since the days that they were gate cars. How did they appear to you? I believe the MUDC operated on the IRT elevated lines in Manhattan were also a cheap conversion of gate cars to MUDC operation like the C's. The Q's were a class act.
So far as I can remember, D. Rosenthal is right about the Cs, the MUDCs, and the Qs--I like seeing color pictures of the Qs in their orange-and-blue (or blue-and-orange) livery. Sansone's book on NY transit cars says that the cabs on the Cs were moved forward, but I'm not that certain all were rebuilt that way. Sansone also considers them as innovative and paving the way for the streamlined cars of the 1930s, but again, I'm not that certain that I would agree.
>I understand that the motorman's cab was not moved since the days
>that they were gate cars. How did they appear to you? I believe the
>MUDC operated on the IRT elevated lines in Manhattan were also a
>cheap conversion of gate cars to MUDC operation like the C's. The Q's >were a class act.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Oh yeah..I almost forgot..from what Ive heard from oldtimers..(im too young myself!) the Cs were the worst SOUNDING cars ever also...overworked undermaintained 'el' motors....But ya gotta admit they lasted over 30 years like that so there mustve been something to 'em! (not to mention the fact they also LOOKED like the lash up was going to fall apart at any minute!..rock and sway..)
Brian Cudahy describes the Cs in Under the Sidewalks of New York as being "noisy and downright ugly", yet they were "structurally and mechanically sound". I'm also too young to remember them; I was born in the same year they were retired.
((((( Ouch ))))), that hurt. Care to share what those technical reasons are? In advance, I totally disagree...
Sorry Steve, but the teething pains of the R-46 with the Rockwell trucks and various other non-performing systems, made them a trouble car right from the beginning. I remember being in NYC once when there were all sorts of service problems because of the number of those cars out of service for various problems. It took a lot of effort on the part of NYCTA to get those cars right, and make them as reliable as they are today. Again my assessment is "as delivered" not as they now are!
BTW, with the blue stripe, big sign curtains and colorful interior, they were one of the best looking cars on the system.
Wayne,
I tried sending this message from within the article on the Canarsie Line, but I keep abending, so here goes.
Great article on the Canarsie Line, but just a couple of additions/corrections:
1. Wasn't the grade crossing closed between 1964 and 1967? I'm sure I recall visiting the city in 1967 after three years absence and finding it closed to traffic.
2. On the map, don't forget the 1, 2, 3 and 9 transfer at 6th Av.
3. The bridge from the Livonia Av. station to Junius St. connects only to the street, not to the station. It is also, I believe, an exit only, unless that has been changed since the introduction of MetroCards. I recall that around 1960, there was indeed a direct connection between the stations requiring extra fare, but this was torn down. Due to there being no passage between Van Sinderen Av. and Junius St. between Blake and New Lots Avs, it is not possible to transfer between the 3 and L lines even with an unlimited metrocard!
Keep up the good work!
Bob Sklar
Beware of Mrs. Bush train Dispatchor on the no 1 line AT Van Courtland Park
from 2pm to 10 pm. My son loves to ride subway trains. He is 17 years
old. So as he was boarding my train Mrs. Bush told my son he couldn't
ride my train even thow he was a reveinue Passandger and my train was in passandger service. Ofcouse i told my son he was rideing or i call
police. She then backed off.
I hope you aren't teaching your child grammar or spelling.
There's one in every crowd.
I admit I should have checked the grammer when I hit the send button
Sorry.
I admit I should have checked the grammer when I hit the send button
Sorry.
What is a Hercle Pot?
The R33/R36WF subway car has old lights. It was built in 1963-64 and rebuild in 1982-85. The lights get to flash off and on. It is now on the No. 7 Train. The R33WF car numbers are 9306-9345 The R36WF car numbers are 9346-9523, 9558-9769.
WRONG, the oldest car in NYC is the G Trailer of 1878.
Technically G is not a subway car. It is an elelvated car.
I think that of the oldest cars (that people can see) is the IRT Lo-V trailer at the Transit Museum or the Lo-V Museum Train usually stored in the Coney Island Yard.
If we speak only of "subway" cars I think the oldest is 2204,the AB It was built in 1916 and beats out the Lo-VT 4902 by one year. Both of these cars are in the museum at Court St. The oldest existing "subway" car must be 3352, a Gibbs Hi-VM at the Seashore Trolley Museum.
Regards,Redbird
The R33/36 cars have always been on the #7. What do you think the WF stands for? World's Fair!!
The lights on some of the Redbirds on the #2 and #5 and #6 (and a few #4) still blink on and off.
Assuming were speaking of the oldest NYCT cars in revenue service that would be the R-26, built by ACF in 1956 (or is it 1957??)
Funny you should mention NYC's oldest subway car(mine is actually elevated-pre-IRT I suppose)
Yesterday in 30th Street Station, at the tourist stand(just a stand with tourist info up and down the NE) there was a large number of 1999 NYCVB Guides(a quick note: I picked one up at around 8 yesterday morning and there had to have been 50 after that-when I went thorugh the station around 2 PM, there was one left) andinside was a picture of Money Train G, NYC's oldest surviving railcar(the book said 120 but they also seem to forget that Dean St. is long gone-as they said there were 469 subway stations).
If you're referring to the oldest subway cars still in revenue service, that honor goes to the R-26 Redbirds, which were built in 1958.
We (MTS Imports, Inc) are importing HO Scale models of the BMT R32 & R38 Subway cars, and we have a question in regard to the roof detail on the R38 Cars.
The R32's have a fine "fluting" on the roof along with the strips of ventilators.
Does the R38's also have this "fluting" or does it have lines of rivets or other markings to seperate the panels of metal that were used in the construction of the roof.
All the photos that we have do not show the roof clearly, and we require this info in order to produce the most accurate models possible.
Please contact us at mtsimp@warwick.net if you have any info that may be of help to us.
The HO Scale R38 is $600.00 for two subway cars. Well that too much money to buy two subway cars?? They should lower the price to for $200.00 not $600.00. I won't buy it for $600.00 for two R38 subway cars
Joel, so far as I can tell from the pics in my collection -- the 38s have no fluting detail on the roofs, but do have small-bolt riveted roof plates much like the next TA delivery, the R-40.
Good luck, Doug
Isn't it great we have a Subtalk & a Bustalk!. Let's face it, we are just "transit fans". I love everything that moves the masses, subways,trolleys, trackless trolleys and busses!
Chuck Greene
Back in April of 1998, General Railway Signal was bought by Alstom of France and the GRS name no longer exists. It is called Alstom Signaling Inc. (formerly General Railway Signal). GRS lasted for 94 years and Union Switch and Signal still exists with it's original logo of 1881 with the letter U and the SS in the middle. Ansaldo Transporti of Italy owns US & S. In the industry we call GRS, "Brand X" and US & S is called "Union Swipe and Swindell" or simply "The Switch.
This is a little of interesting true trivia!!!
The R-68 (2500-2924) is on the D, N and the Franklin Shuttle lines and the R-68A (5001-5200) is on the B line. They have the aluminum interior and the orange and yellow plastic seats same as the R-46.
The R-32 (3650-3949) and R-32A (3350-3649) is on the C, E, G, N, R and the 63 Street Shuttle lines. The interiors are in beige and dark grey plastic seats. From 1964-1972 the interiors are in white and light blue plastic seats. From 1973-1988 the interiors are in beige and light green plastic seats.
They're also on the "A", but not regulary on the "G" any more. A few used to run on the "Q" but no longer; they've been switched to the "N". I do remember the interior doors being orange for some time in the late 70s and early 80s, then they got repainted again (before the rebuild) dark blue with a cream beige interior like they have now.
The Ramones' "Subterranean Jungle" album cover shows a graffitti-smeared R32 on the "B" line (circa 1980 or 1981) with the orange interior doors.
Wayne
Does R-32s run on the F line?
Not usually unless there is a shortage of R-46s
In the early 90s they ran r32 &r46s on both the E & F line.Of course this was when the r46s were getting a makeover.In recent years most or all f trains are 75footers.Hey,did you know that there were r32s rolling stock on the L in the 80s?
That's what I've heard. It's not surprising. Over the years, the R-32s have seen service on virtually every IND and BMT route you can think of, and even some which no longer exist!
The R-32s have aged gracefully over the years; in fact, they still look quite good. Let's hope they'll still be around for many more years. Maybe they'll even break the record for longevity currently held by a few Gibbs Hi-Vs (for subway cars, that is, NOT el cars).
Now, if they could only bring back route and destination signs on the ends and the blue doors.
[The R-32s have aged gracefully over the years; in fact, they still look quite good. Let's hope they'll still be around for many more years. Maybe they'll even break the record for longevity currently held by a few Gibbs Hi-Vs (for subway cars, that is, NOT el cars).]
I thought the BMT Standards held the record ...
The first Standards were built in 1914 and the last retired in 1969, however the oldest unit operating until 1969 was 2390-1-2 which was built in 1917 thereby giving 52 years of service.The Gibbs Hi-v's were built in 1904-05 and at least three keep running until 1958, 3562,3584 and 3631, so they were 53 to 54 years old.By the way the last trip of the Standards was on August 4,1969 on a M nassau St Exp.
The cars were 2531-2-3 and 2466-2649-2467.
Regards,Larry,RedbirdR33
Hey, I was riding around the system that very day - we started at 5:30am and ended at 8:45pm. My Dad and my friend Larry McR went with me. We saw and rode a Ice Cold R40M on the "LL" that day (#4300-4301-4292-4293-4298-4299-4308-4309). We must have just missed that train - we were on another "M" (R-7/R-9 variety, we boarded at Essex St and rode to Wyckoff). I have notes on that trip somewhere,
Monday August 4, 1969. The temperature that day was a mighty nice 96.
We were all over the place - Bronx, Brooklyn, Queens, Manhattan.
We went to CI by "F" and came back by R42 "B" - #4644 and #4645. The "B" was pleasantly A/C'd but few other cars (save the "L") were. It was hot as heck down there and we loved every minute of it.
Wayne
The last few months of 1969 were a particularly somber time for subway fans. The Standards made their last run in August,the Q's in October and the IRT cars in early November. I had been hunting jackalopes in South Dakota and so missed the passing of the AB's and Q's but did manage to return in time for the funeral of the old IRT cars.
Regards,Larry,Redbird
And for us Mets fans, October 16, 1969 will live forever in our memories and our hearts. I still remember that day as though it were yesterday. I think fans in Baltimore were having hernias: first the Jets upset the Colts, then the Mets upset the Orioles. Not to be outdone, the Knicks won the NBA Championship the following spring. Only it wasn't at the expense of Baltimore.
Yeah, but they did beat them in 7 in the first round.
As I said, it was enough to give Baltimore fans hernias.
The $64,000 question: did you ride on any slants? How about R-10s? So, is it true that it was R-40Ms on the Canarsie and not R-42s in 1969? I could have sworn those were R-42s I was on back then, but numbers don't lie...
I was in the city two weeks later, on August 17, with my cousin. We took in the usual tourist sites: the Statue of Liberty and the Empire State Building. We even took a jaunt up CPW on - you guessed it - an A train of R-10s. Then, on the way home, our bus was involved in a collision.
Seems there was a music festival going on that very same weekend of August 15-16-17 in Bethel at Max Yasgur's farm - I believe it was Woodstock.
Here's some info regarding the LL car assignments in 1969.The first R-40M's (4250-4349 orig nos) made their first run on 3/6/69 on the F. The first R-42's on 5/9/69 on the N. On Jun 9 R-40M's 4286-4297 were assigned to the LL,4286-87 were returned to the F on Jun 11 and replaced by 4298-4301.On Jul 25 R-42's were assigned to the LL and were sometimes mixed with the R-40M's.By Nov R-42's 4888-4919 were assigned to the KK/LL/M pool and all R-40M's were on the E and F.
Bear in mind I used the original numbers as they were in use at the time. This was also the era of mix and match on the TA and almost any combination of cars could be found on trains.R42's with R-16's,R-32's with R-38's,R-10's with slant R-40's, etc.
Regards,Larry,Redbird
Yeah, I remember the mix and match era all too well. Interestingly enough, the only mixed consists I ever saw were on the D, and they were always R-32s coupled with R-42s. It used to drive me nuts! The R-32s were almost always on the ends of the train, with R-42s in the middle. I never cared for mixed trains and still don't; call me a solid train/express fanatic.
I may be mistaken, but I get the impression that if the R-10s were intermixed with other cars in the same train, it was done infrequently. Each and every R-10 I ever saw, whether on the A or any other line, always ran in a solid train. There is a photo in the R-42 section of a mixed consist of R-10s and R-42s on the A, and the R-16s were intermixed with R-10s back in the 50s. For the longest time, I thought the R-10s could not m. u. with any other cars when, in fact, they could.
Unfortunately, I missed the mixed consist era on the IND/BMT. I lived near to the 3 & 5 lines and I didn't ride/or see my first IND/BMT train until I was 8 yrs old in 1974. I'm glad they don't do that any more. I hated to see it on the IRT and I was happy when that practice ended. I should've been born 15 years earlier
Wayne
Wayne: Having been a long time IRT fan I was happy when they started solid trains on the IRT. For many years R-17 through R-36 were mixed but these cars can blend together more or less. When we stated bringing over the R-12,14,and 15 from the Flushing things started to get a little hairy as they did not blend well with the other cars. When the BMT/IND started mixing just about anything and everything after Chrystie St it could be downright frightening. R-10's do not blend with R-40's,R-32's do not go with R-27's and R-40's don't blend with anything. The TA finally seemed to realize that trains run better when they are kept with units of their own class.
Best Wishes,Redbird
Consider yourself lucky. I don't think I ever saw a solid train of anything on the IRT mainlines back in the 70s. As I've said before, the only mixed consists I ever saw on the IND and BMT in the late 60s and early 70s were R-32s coupled with R-42s on the D. In the mid-80s, I did see R42s coupled with R-40Ms on the D, but they're pretty similar and blend together, in much the same way R-32s and R-38s blend together.
The R40Ms and the R42s are still hanging together on ALL of the Eastern Division lines - "J", "M", "Z" and, yes the "L".
Wayne
Re R-40M & R-42 on the D. This I remember well. It was extremely rare to find a train of solid R-42's on the D. I think I saw a solid train of R-40M's on the D once. Of course at the time when late night D trains were 6-cars you find trains of one car class.
NJT is running mixed trains of Comet II. Comet III and Comet IV push=pull trains. It looks ugly-especially trains with the IIs mixed in! The Comet III and Comet IV mixes, while ugly are not as bad.
(Comet IV cars have the automatic doors between cars and the Blue seats.)
YES, we kicked it off with a nice non-AC Slant R40 on the "F" - #4156 according to my notebook. We rode in the LAST car and watched out the back. YES we rode several R-10s, all on the "A". We had R22 on the #5, with the front window dropped down. The #1's were a mixed bag: R21, R22, R14, R15, R17 etc. The #2s were Redbird. The #3s were mixed. We went to Lenox Terminal. Then we switched to the #4 at Fulton. We visited the South Ferry Shuttle. It was an R12. The "F" going out from Jay was an R6/R7 mix, Hot Fun in the Summertime. We went to Church Avenue and got off there to look around one of Dad's old neighborhoods (Dahill Rd & Ave C). Then we got another R40 from Church to CI. The "B" was an R42 coming back. The "RR"s were R27/30s, weeping and moaning as they waddled out of Cortlandt Street. "KK"s and "M"s were all R7/R9. So was the "LL" from Myrtle back into town. The train coming home was an R6/R7 on the "F".
My Jan 28 visit to Lenox Terminal was the first one since that day in 1969.
Wayne
Thanks! I love these stories. Let me jog your memory on this: on the South Ferry shuttle, the R-12s which were used (5703 thru 5706) were modified so that only the center doors would open at South Ferry. Can you recall if all the doors opened at Bowling Green, or did the leaves on the extreme ends of each car stay closed?
How does an R-27 waddle, BTW?
At Bowling Green I believe that the center doors would open and one leaf each of the outer doors.
Larry,Redbird
I think the cars reversed themselves at South Ferry, so that the same side of the car always stopped at the platform there (with just the center door open) while the other side opened at Bowling Green, with all doors operative.
The shuttle reversed direction at South Ferry; however, both the inner loop platform and the shuttle platform at Bowling Green were on the same side relative to the shuttle track, so the doors at both stations opened on the same side. By reversing direction, rather than going around the loop, the shuttle didn't interfere with mainline train traffic.
I'm curious as to the specific modification made to R-12s 5703-5706 which made it possible to open only their center doors.
First you start off at a breathtaking speed of 5 MPH. Throw in two 90-degree curves for good measure. When the train goes into the first curve, it shudders a little, then it tilts. The waddle comes when it wheels back all the way after the first curve. Throw in the swingback curve coming into City Hall for good measure. I've been through this curve on the following cartypes:
R27 (RR), R30 (RR), R6 (EE), R16 (EE), R42 (RR), R46 (R), R32 (R), Slant R40 (N), R68 (N), and most recent cartype not previously ridden on through there (yes!) the D-TYPE TRIPLEX!
My last actual ride through there on a revenue train was August 1, 1998 aboard an "R" train of R32's.
"Breathtaking speed of 5 mph" Sounds like the old Q Types with a strong tailwind>
Redbird
I believe the posted speed for that nasty "S" curve is 5MPH northbound and 8 or 10MPH southbound. Southbound, just as you enter Cortlandt Street, there's a little whiplash right curve-back. They have a similar thing on the southbound #2/3 just as you enter Fulton Street (another extremely tight curve).
Wayne
Wayne: I believe I heard somewhere that the curves on the lower Boradway Line are the tightest in the system.
Larry,Redbird
The only other ones I can think of that are as tight (or tighter) are:
The #2/3 line betw. Park Pl & Chambers Street, AND north of Fulton Street and the Second curve entering City Hall Loop (not the right turn, the left turn right after it) - the R62A I was on the cars looked almost like they were at 45% (dont have degree symbol handy) angle (more like 25%)- he actually stopped the train then proceeded.
Is there a book or chart somewhere indicating turning circle radii?
Wayne
Don't forget the curve on the #5 at 149th-Grand Concourse. Because they're anywhere from 9 to 24 feet shorter than their B division cousins, the IRT cars can deal with even sharper turns than the IND/BMT
Having lived near there I recall the sharpnest of that double reverse S curve very well. How about the Franklin Av Loop on the Newark City Subway?
Oh, yesss, the Mott Avenue Jughandle! How quickly I forget. Northbound it is very very tight; southbound, it is broader. The angle is a whopping 125 degrees northbound, about 115 southbound.
Wayne
You're right - that's one helluva curve.
Getting back to the BMT, the Triplexes had an advantage in negotiating sharp curves because they were articulating units. Did that train you were on have its "via Tunnel" signs lit up in white?
I wonder how much chiseling they had to do in that tunnel between City Hall and Cortlandt St. before a train of 75-foot cars could navigate its way through it.
Quite a bit, from what I remember. The test train actually almost got stuck in there. I think the cut back on the inside of the first curve northbound and on the second one southbound. The R46s and R68s that meander through there treat it with the utmost respect. Red/white striped signs are up too, indicating "NO CLEARANCE".
Alas, the Triplex did not have its signs lighted, nor did they run the fans. They tried, but one stubborn old fan in the lead car refused to budge (the second from the front-it must have been a GE), so in the interest of preserving the electrical circuits, not to mention the other fans, they shut them down, much to the dismay and groans of the railfans aboard. Maybe next time. They could have used them for sure, October 18 was a rather warm day.
Wayne
October 19 was warm, too. I flew into LaGuardia that day. As Don Adams would say, "Missed it by that much".
I know we've talked about this before, but how would you compare the sound level of the Triplex bull and pinion gears at speed to, say, the R-1/9s? Those IND old timers would resonate as they moved along. Not that I had any complaints - I loved it! I thought the BMT standards were a bit quieter than the R-1/9s in that regard, and I've heard the Triplexes were even quieter. How do the Lo-Vs compare?
I will have to take in a ride on the Triplex units myself someday, if I'm ever lucky enough to be in the city when a fantrip is scheduled.
The 7 Avenue IRT is kind of a dip and a turn leaving Chambers stbd to Park Place, but the lower Broadway Line has twists and turns. One part of the train seems to be going in one dirction while the other part seems to be going in another. I do have a set of blueprint schematics for the original IND which do show curve radiuses. I could only guess you would have to see the TA's schematics for the different lines. Maybe someone will publish a book on the lines like Gene Sansone did on the cars.
Those three Gibbs Hi-Vs are still the longevity champions, taken all by themselves, and the Gibbs cars, as a fleet, would have to rank up there, too, at 50-plus years. It wasn't until the R-17s started to arrive in 1955 that Hi-V retirements began, so one can safely say that nearly all of the Gibbs cars (3350-3649 series) put in 50 years of service. The BMT standards were on the scene, as a fleet, for 54 years; however, as you pointed out, 2390-1-2 hold the individual record at 52 years. I gather that not many standards served for 50 years on an individual basis; chances are that the oldest units were retired first when the R-27s arrived.
You could have three different longevity categories: individual cars, total years of service as a fleet, and average years of service as a fleet for any given car. Take the BMT standards. The oldest units were built in 1914 and entered revenue subway service in 1915 (some were used on the Sea Beach line to supplement trolley service to Coney Island prior to 1915); the last units were delivered in 1924. If retirements began in 1960-61 and continued until 1969, that works out to a rolling average of 45 years for any given car in that fleet, give or take a year or two.
The real surprise would have to be the Triplex units. As good as they were, the only units which could have served for even 40 years would have been the pilots. They began arriving in earnest in 1927-28 and were phased out in 1964-65 with the arrival of the R-32s for an average of 37 years. The R-1/9s had the same rollimg average.
IMHO, the R-32s have a legitimate shot at the record, as long as they stay healthy.
[You could have three different longevity categories: individual cars, total years of service as a fleet, and average years of service as a fleet for any given car ... The real surprise would have to be the Triplex units. As good as they were, the only units which could have served for even 40 years would have been the pilots. They began arriving in earnest in 1927-28 and were phased out in 1964-65 with the arrival of the R-32s for an average of 37 years. The R-1/9s had the same rollimg average.]
It seems like the R-30s also were a bit of a surprise. If I'm not mistaken, they entered service in 1955 and were pretty much gone by 1990.
The R-30s came along in 1961-62; it was the R-16s which were delivered in 1955. Both classes had relatively short life spans, compared with other New York subway cars. It seems that the postwar cars, specifically the single unit cars, as a whole didn't stay around as long as their prewar counterparts, roughly 30 years.
One could say that they don't build them the way they used to, and to an extent, that would be true. On the other hand, had it not been for WWII, chances are the prewar IRT and BMT fleets would have been retired sooner.
Thirty years service (actually, 31-32 for the R27/30) is not an acceptable lifespan for a subway car, IMHO. They should be able to do a minimum of 40 years with the proper maintenance, unless, like the R16, they were inherently flawed to begin with.
The R27/30 couldn't be A/C'd like the IRT Redbirds were because to do so would have made them too heavy, so I was told. So even the R30A's that went through their GOHs bit the dust. Ditto for the fan favorite R10s. Now THAT was a shame!
Wayne
At least there's a bright spot: the R27/30's may not have lasted long, but the R32's already have been around over 35 years and with any luck will celebrate their Golden Anniversary.
Here, here. I'll second that. If there is any consolation, those 110 R-10s which were fixed up and painted green did put in 40 years of faithful service. Too bad they didn't run any of them on the A at the end.
As for our beloved Redbirds, the R-26s have already passed the 40-year milestone, and the R-28s are sure to follow suit.
And, Wayne, let's hope the slant R-40s stay around for their golden anniversary, too. I know you'll agree to that!
Yes, If the good Lord lets me make it to 2018, I hope to see a few Slants still running.
Maybe the TA could set aside one train of each car type (R26/28, R29, R32, R33, R36, R38, R40, R40M, R42 etc) as museum pieces, for future railfans to enjoy.
BTW- where and do I pick up an application for Conductor?
(I have my reasons)
Wayne
If you want to be a subway conductor?? Well buy a chief and look up if any test coming up for MTA job or look at www.mta.nyc.ny.us and there a list coming up. I took the conductor test six years ago and i didn't know i pass or fail. The conductor test should be this year or next year. I will find out and let you know.
Thanks in advance, R62A. I work in information services right now and it is a harrowing existence. I love the subway and I wonder if a change of scenery isn't overdue (I've been in my business for 20 years now). I have all the routes, stops, transfer points AND the sides that the doors open on down cold.
Wayne
Any time Wayne and i love subway cars and buses too. I been a subway fun since i was 4 years old. I would love to have a layout for subway cars in the future.
Wayne,
Sometimes I think the same thing. If I start a career at NYCT, I definitely will be a step ahead as I have the ssytem stored in my head. The same for MABSTOA buses, TA buses in Manhattan
and Queen. Brooklyn - I'd have to study some maps and Staten Island - I'd be completely green.
Wayne
Not to mention your Master Lists. I'll bet, in fact, I know your longtime dream would be to work the doors and announce stations on a train of slant R-40s on the L. Or am I way off base? Would you settle for a Q train of slants?
At this point, I'd settle for anything just to get a foot in the door.
As for picks? Sure, I'd take the "Q". Love that express run. And the "L" (my favorite)...
Myrtle Avenue, doors open on the left side, change here for the "M" train on the upper level..."
I can dream, can't I?
Wayne
I know the feeling. I rode around with a bus driver when I was young and he always let me change the sign. I always felt like I was part of it, as he said "Charlie, it's time for us to leave." He let me tell people how to get around town , as I knew most of the routes. We would stop in South Philly and get a water ice or soft ice cream cone on the way southbound( this was on the #2 bus route -ran on 16th & 17th sts.)
My other great thrill was operating a LRV on Septa's test track on open house day. I felt like I had died and went to heaven!!!
I am a Mechanical Autocad designer and am starting a solid modeling program which is a lot of fun and pays good money. If I could pilot
a LRV for the same bucks, I would!
Chuck Greene
I still fantasize about working the trigger boxes on a train of R-1/9s or R-10s. The novelty would undoubtedly wear off quickly, but I agree: it's nice to dream.
if you took an exam 6 years ago, write it off. The exam number expires after four. Study harder and try again
So test does expires after four, but i took the cleaner in 1993 and i find out my name is still on the list because my father's friend work for department of personal. His friend told him that my name can't drop until they call me but i don't think i might not get that job because i hear the city want to put workfare into cleaner and they will not be part of MTA. Well any way i took the station agent two months ago and hope i will pass that test.
P.S my dream was to be a motorman because i love riding the subway cars also I will find out when the conductor test.
To Harry - I take it that there is material that needs to be studied prior to taking the Conductors' Test; if you would be kind enough to point me in the direction of it,
Thank you in advance,
Wayne L Whitehorne
There is an ARCO civil service preparation book that you can purchase. I believe there is a civil service book store on Thomas St where the Dept. of Personnel used to be located.Also, Barnes and Nobles sells those books.There is another bookstore on 86st,between 18ave and 20 ave stations on the B line, on the Coney Island bound side of the street.
You forgot Car #3348.
The R44 and R46 cars were equipped for GRS and US & S carborne ATC systems for ATO operation. The equipment was never used except for the speedometer and the car were "de-sophisticated" of the equipment in the 1980's.
Quiz for today, on what track and line where the cars tested for full ATP and ATO operation? I will give answer tomorrow.
The answer to yesterday's quiz is the track F4 on the Sea Beach Line in Brooklyn. Same track was used for testing the Automatic Shuttle train in 1959.
It there any nyc subway cars for N or HO scale?? Im looking for R12,21,26,28,29,40m,40,42,44,46,62,68 for my layout. Im making 4x8 and the track im using is N Kato unitrack. N kato unitrack is the best and i been using N kato unitrack since 1990.
Yeah, try www.imagereplicas.com They have some nice styrene unassembled kits and some brass ones too. Very nice! I have the r21 myself. Check it out!
I am looking for GOOD pictures of the in-service underground stations. But pics that would make you feel like your actually there. I don't want any closeups of the mosaics(although they're cool) or pics of a train with the corner showing the platform and a I beam. Please let me know if you know where to find some! Thanks.
The R-30 (8250-8351, 8412-8569) and the R-30A (8352-8411) are on the C, H, and M lines until 1993. The exteriors are painted in rebuilt red scheme. Interiors are in beige with dark grey plastic seats and red doors. These cars look like the IRT cars.
The R-62 (1301-1625) is on the No. 4 line. The R-62A (1651-2475) is on the No. 1, 3, 5 and 6 lines. The interior is aluminum with orange and yellow plastic seats same as R-46.
The R-17 (6500-6899) is the IRT version of the R-16. The R-17 is the mainstay of the No. 6 line. The photos are in this book are 6698, 6538, 6544, 6587, 6874, 6889, 6500, 6854, 6877 and 6688. Museum R-17s: 6609, NY Transit Museum and 6688, Shore Line Trolley Museum. The interior of 6609 are in grey with orange leathered seats. The interior of 6688 are in beige with dark grey plastic seats with red doors.
R17s do blink off and on
I guess your an expert on blinking lights?
I guess your an expert on blinking lights?
Which light are you referring to? I never saw any lights blink on an R-17 or any other car, for that matter.
Here are some service changes
EE has been eliminated.
K service has been elimnated.
N service extended to 71 Avenue.
5 service cut back to Bowling Green
SS Bowling Green Shuttle eliminated
E service cut back to World Trade Center
CC service extended to Rockaway Park
Does anybody have a NYC subway map from 1978
I have one from '79.
Can someone tell me what is meant when a subway car is in the shop for running repair? Would this be the same as unscheduled maintenance? Also I know that the "F" line calls Jamaica yard home but do they also lay up "F" trains any at Coney?
Running repairs are not just unscheduled repairs. It usually implies that the car has been repaired without the formality of being 'officially held' and then 'officially released'. Running repairs can be made in the maintenance shop or in the yard but in practical sense, less paperwork is involved.
Wayne: Here's a news item you might find interesting. I came accBross it last night while rumaging in the archives.
The first train of R-40's ran in revenue service on March 23,1968 from 179 St to Coney Island. The consist was 4351-0,4359-8,4352-3 and 4354-5.
Best wishes,Redbird
Figures they'd send out the air conditioned ones first.
What aboutthe one photographed sitting in the 34th St middle before Chrystie St, with a green F sign (colors weren't assigned yet)? Was this just a display, and did not operate in passenger service?
There was a display of the R-40's prior to the entering of service. This was to show off the new design and before any of the hardware was added to the ends of the train. As a result of this display the first set of handrails was added to the car ends. The train did not run in revenue service at that time.
Redbird
Those were NOT the A/C Slant R40. The A/C slants didn't arrive until very late 1968, some perhaps even early 1969. Remember, they shuffled the numbers around a year or so after they arrived. So the original numbers #4350-4359 would wind up being #4250-4259.
See the R40 page in the Illustrated Subway Car Roster.
Here's how the number-shuffling played out.
Original numbers, car type, current numbers.
------------------------------------------------------
4150-4249, Slant R40, non/ac, stayed 4150-4249
4250-4317, R40M, became 4450-4517
CBxx,ASxx, R40M, became 4518-4549
4350-4449, Slant R40, non/ac, became 4250-4349
4450-4549, Slant R40, A/C, became 4350-4449
* CBxx and ASxx were brake test temporary numbers
Wayne |MrSlantR40\
You're right, I forgot about the number changes. I was just recalling how much the TA touted it's new air conditioned cars back then and assumed they would have rolled the R-40s with a/c out first.
As Felix Unger says: When you assume...
Early today I saw about R15 or 17 eight work cars and also i saw R12 work car sitting at E180st yard. They been sitting there for week now. Are those work cars ready to scapped? By the way where is the scapped yard?? So i can take some picture of retired subway cars. David
No David. The cars that you saw at 180 St are cars being used for the Continuous Welded Rail Train (8 R17/21/22 cars)- It's only purpose is to carry rail through different parts of the subway system. They aren't going to scrap since they were being used on the Dyre Av line over the weekends for track work. As for the scrap yard, there's one behind a fence at 39th Street and 1st Avenue in Brooklyn, near the piers. You can try to get pictures there.
-Constantine
I want to know why the R62a running on #5 train line? Those R62 came from #6 line because i saw a yellow tag under number plate. That mean those R62a #6 line going to #5 line??? And # 6 line is getting new R142??
For my third message of the night (I'm an insomniac, I guess), the R62As that you see here on the 5 are being used for OPTO, or one person train operation. This means that at night, the R62As are assigned to the 5 shuttle, which operates as a 5 car set with only the train operator on board. 20 cars from the Pelham line are assigned here. As for the R142s, well they'll go wherever the R26/28/29/33/36s are located.
-Constantine (for the third time!)
The reason why is because they are used for one person train operation
on the Dyre Ave during midnights. During the day R 62s are used to
replace the Redbirds that go to pelham witch are mainly R 33S BECAUSE
I have not seen any R 26,28 INVOLED IN THE SWITCH.
Now that new lights are everywhere, and MTA " People pushers" have been assigned to Dekalb Ave, When is it going to get redone? The tiles are literally crumbling off the walls, and the signs to the main enstance still have yellow (D),(Q) signs as well as orange (R) signs. You can even see light blue (TT) signs behind one of the letters that is peeling off.
"Any potential improvement areas along the D, Q line is to be summarily ignored"
-MTA 5 YR. PLAN (1995)
A blue TT sign at DeKalb? That's interesting. Although the TT lingered until July 1, 1968, it ran only as a shuttle between 36th St. and Coney Island during nights and Sundays after the Chrystie St. connection opened. It ran when the B wasn't operating, and then it never went as far as DeKalb. I could be wrong, of course...
You Are Defintley Right!!!
I meant Green RR. I don't know what I was think. Sorry I didn't reply sooner, but I didn't wan't to be one of the type they been talkin about recently, being that I've only been on for a month or two.
Steve: Back in the period immediately following the openning of the Chrystie Street Connection every subway line had it's own color.The short lived TT West End Local did indeed use dark blue. That sign must have been up there for at least 30 years.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Yes, I remember that very well. Mass confusion reigned during that first week, and it wasn't limited to just passengers. Even tower personnel and operators didn't know for sure where any train would wind up. There was a newspaper story which I wish I had kept that told of a motorman who pushed a wrong button and wound up crossing the Manhattan Bridge instead of the Montague St. tunnel.
My mother picked up a pamphlet back then which outlined the first series of new routes; unfortunately I lost it some time ago. I still have a pamphlet with the next series of route changes effective July 1 and August 18, 1968.
Where was that TT sign located at DeKalb? I've never seen such a sign there.
I remember the story in the N.Y. Times and it was the other way around -- A `D' train motorman pushed thw wrong button and went through the tunnel instead of the bridge, and then through the Nassau St. loop and out across the Williamsburgh.
That made him the first motorman to use the eventual Delancy St. bypass route the `D' would use in the early 80s when the northeast side of the Manhattan Bridge was closed.
Steve: You caught something that I missed. The #3 or TT Nassau St-West End Local did serve Dekalb Av up until Chrystie St. After Chrystie St the TT continued to run until July,1968, but only as the West End Shuttle between 36 St and Coney Is and did not serve Dekalb Av.During this period the TT was identified by a dark blue color.
Contact me at RedbirdR33@hotmail,let me know if you can't get through.I might have some additional information.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Maybe the light blue sign that he saw was the bottom of an M. If only partially revealed, the M could look like a TT. Back in the 60s/70s the M was a light blue.
The M ran only during rush hours when the Chrystie St. connection opened, and then it ran only to Chambers St. It didn't begin operating through DeKalb until the 70s.
Fred, the original post, saw the sign recently. I am only saying that maybe he saw the bottom of the M from when it ran through Dekalb in the 70's or whenever.
Of course, please dont think I'm being a wise a**. Actually, I thought I was going to be chewed up alive for that mistake, I didn't even know the TT ran through Dekalb.
Sorry
Fred
Fred: I actually enjoyed reading your post. What people may not be aware of or have forgotten is that in the immediate post-Chrystie St period there was a great deal of confusion in the TA over what routes were going to go where.Some planned routes were never implemented or altered, others existed only for a short time.I know from personal experience of signs being posted in the wrong stations or others never being updated so an out-of-service route might still be shown at a station long after it had ceased to run.There was a sign at Bway-Myrtle for many years showing a blue "M" and a green "SS" going to Metropolitan Av and this was long after the "M" was identified with the brown color.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
As if my first few posts wern't confusing enough, today I went to the entrance of Dekalb ( Across Flatbush From Junior's ) and Did a little peeling of the Brown M sign. There IS a blue sign ( very light blue ). I couldn't make out a letter though.
:-) Fred
Fred: Light blue was the color used by the M from 1967 to 1979.It was also used by the NX but the NX did not stop at Dekalb.
Best Wishes,Larry,Redbird
Why the NX last ran only in 1967 to 1968??
I believe it was because the patronage was so low. The few times that I took it at the peak of evening rush hour, it was nearly empty with a lot of avaiable seats (imagine that on a rush hour train). Besides that, it was very slow getting through Coney Island to its Brighton Beach terminal and then a lot of people still had to change to the northbound D or QJ to get where they had to go.
You're exactly right. Apparently, no one at the time thought of simply cutting back the B as a shuttle during nights and Sundays. Just as people were getting used to the TT... Then again, that also explains all of the SS shuttle routes of the late 60s (Dyre Ave., Lenox Terminal, Myrtle Ave.).
If no onre read my last post about Dekalb, I apologize again. I said Blue TT (which I was thinking of while writing my post). I meant to say Green RR, which is peeling off under the R sign. If anyone goes to the main entrance on Dekalb + Flatbush Ext., and does a little peeling, you may find more.
Sorry Again
Fred
Was there a Myrtle Avenue Shuttle? I remember the maps showing Myrtle service using the the M and MJ. M to Chambers Street, MJ to Bridge-Jay Street (Myrtle Avenue El)
Remember all of those SS lines? There were quite a few.
The ones I remember are:
Times Square-Grand Central Shuttle
Bowling Green-South Ferry Shuttle
135th Street-145th Street(later 148th Street)Lenox Shuttle
East 180th Street-Dyre Avenue Shuttle
Prospect Park-Franklin Avenue Shuttle
9th Avenue-Ditmas Avenue Culver Shuttle
When the Myrtle Av El stopped running on Oct 4,1969 the SS Myrtle Av Shuttle began service between Metropolitan Av and Myrtle/Bway(Lower Level). The approx. hours of operation were M-F 12 mid-6a and 8p-12mid and all day Sat and Sun. The M nassau St Local would run M-F 6a-8p.The color used for this route was dark green.You are quite right about the number of shuttle services.The 1969 revison of the subway map shows seven routes designated "SS" and with the dark green color;42 St, Bowling Green,Lenox Terminal,Dyre Av, Culver,Franklin and Myrtle Av. BTW the "SS"designation for the Myrtle Av Shuttle lasted until the 1972 edition of the subway map when it was incorporated into the M service.
Best Wishes,Larry,Redbird
Even though the station signs said "SS" for the Myrtle shuttle, I never saw a train signed up as "SS" on it. They were always signed up as "M" and all (except for one, which was an R42 of the high-4800 series) were R7 or R9.
BACK TO THE SUBJECT OF DEKALB AVENUE and its current state of disrepair - first, the curtain walls and side walls need a GOH of the white tile, like that which was done at Pacific and 36th Street.
Problem is, so many lines feed through that station, it presents a logistical dilemma. They'd have to do it piecemeal or shut down some line(s) and do it at night. The tile pattern is that oddball offset one, so they couldn't just throw up fistfuls of white tiles; to do it right they'd have to set them by hand or pre-fab them. The frieze and tablets are pretty much intact, but they need to be reglazed and some spots need fill-ins. They did this at 36th Street. Does anyone have any idea what the compound they use to do this smells like? I DO! It really puts a hurt on your nose! The guys who I watched doing it a few years back down at 36th had gas-mask type facegear on as they worked up on a flatcar-mounted scaffold. I could only stand it for a few minutes; I bailed out on the very next ("R", diverted to the express track) train.
Wayne
I noticed a couple weeks ago that they installed all over the station those strip flood lights (with six light bulbs [ I even !borrowed! one as a souvenier- they say NYCTA on them ]), as well as bright blue lights on the walls about 200 feet before and after the station. Does anyone know of the signifigance of these? Also, the vacumn train was on the express track the other night. It seems there is work going on there EVERY night on everything but the cosmetics of the station.
P.S.-The work is needed soon. I noticed if you stand on the platform and throw a quarter across the tracks agaist the wall, tiles fall down. (they are the small 1inch X 1inch tiles)
Wayne: That's true. The SS Myrtle Av Shuttle was a map designation only and was used from Oct 1969 to 1972 when it was merged into the M on the TA maps.This was another legacy of Chrystie Street in that the route designations on the maps were hopelessly out of sinc with the route designations actually displayed on the train. It took ten years to build the Chrystie St Connection. You would think somewhere in that time they could of had the appropriate sign curtains prepared.
Best Wishes,Redbird
I didn't know TT ran on Dekalb ave line? Where does the TT go?? I never heard TT line on Ex BMT now (B Division).
In the days(and years) before the Chrystie St Connection(Nov 67) opened,the BMT ran the #3 West End-Nassau Street Local between Chambers St and points on the West End Line. When the R-Types started coming into service they bore the designation"TT West End Local." The service prior to Chrystie St had the #3 or TT running M-F 6a-6p btwn Chambers and 9Av/Bay Pkwy(Coney Is-Midday).M-Sa 12mid-6a and 8p-12mid
and all day Sunday the TT ran as a shuttle btwn 36 St(4 Av) and Coney Is.After Chrystie Street opened the B became the main West End service but only ran M-Sa 6a-8p btwn West 4 St and Coney Is,extended M-F rush to 168 St(Wash Hts). The TT continued to run nights and Sundays as a shuttle btwn 36 St and Coney Is until July 69 when the B was made a full time service.
Best Wishes,Redbird
But they weren't sure what the services were going to be until right up to the end. The bedrock of the plan was the new D-Brighton combination, but the other routes were fuzzy. At first, the T was going to continue on Broadway until the 2nd phase (exp tracks) or 3rd phase (57th St) opened (these two phases were combined and opened the same time). Then it was decided that the weekend 6th Av-West End service to W4th or 57th would still be called the T, and the rush hour Wash. Hts service the "BT". The original "EE" designations were "QB", and then "QM", an the QJ may have been the QT. The M was supposed to be replaced by the MM to 57th, and that made it to the signs, but never ran. (We could use this line now, or at least when the bridge reopens. But this was the beginning ot Ridgewood's becoming the forsaken stepchild of the transit system.
in 2 years, the MJ would be taken away.
All of this changing in the plans was covered in the 12-65 through 1967 ERA Bulletins.
That may explain in part why the R-32s didn't originally have B signs on their roller curtains. Apparently, it must have been decided to designate the 6th Ave.-West End service as the B at the last minute. Subsequently, the BB signs on the R-32s were pasted over with Bs.
I agree with Larry: you would have thought the TA had everything worked out well in advance, considering it took ten years to build the Chrystie St. connector.
I can vaguely recall seeing Myrtle Ave. shuttle trains of R-7/9s marked SS in 1969-70-71. We used to take the QJ from Cleveland St. to Fulton St. on Saturdays about every three weeks or so.
Steve: That's very interesting. I know that the R-32's had signs for "SS Shuttle" but I did'nt know that it had been added to the sign curtains of the R1/9's.
Regards,Larry,Redbird
I happen to have a side route roller curtain from one of the R-7/9s which wound up on the Eastern Division. It has an SS/Shuttle sign in addition to the other route signs (KK, LL, M, QJ). What makes the SS sign interesting is that it was printed on a very stiff mylar-like material, then glued to the canvas on both sides.
Did the R7/R9 curtain also have the lost "MM" designation? I seem to remember seeing it during my play period Dec. 27, 1969 aboard the snow-spattered "M" shuttle (I was rolling the cranks around, setting the signs to this and that). My Mom, who came along for the snowy ride, thought it was all great fun and the handful of passengers on the train didn't seem to mind. The conductor, however, was scratching his head come Metropolitan Avenue.
Wayne
I'll have to check my roller curtain. It just might have an MM sign.
I hope you were near the front or back of that M train when you were re-signing it! The only time I ever played around with a rollsign was on a BMT standard while waiting for our train to depart from 8th Ave. I don't remember which route it was set for, but it wasn't "14th St. L'c'l". I started cranking away while my mother was praying the conductor wouldn't spot me, and when the generic "Local" sign came up, I stopped. Later, I learned the "14th St. L'c'l" sign wasn't too far away from that point. On the BMT standard curtains, the routes were grouped by division, Southern Division at one end, Eastern Division at the other, with a few interesting signs thrown in: Nassau St., 14th St. Line, Via Bridge, Via Tunnel. Since every car had two sets of signs on each side, they were pretty informative.
I have one of the large-sized route (upper) curtains from a standard, courtesy of Mr. Rollsign himself, Charles Fiori. About the only marking it doesn't have is "Via Tunnel then Via Bridge" sign which the Banker's Specials would have used.
Was there a Myrtle Avenue Shuttle? I remember the maps showing Myrtle service using the the M and MJ. M to Chambers Street, MJ to Bridge-Jay Street (Myrtle Avenue El)
Remember all of those SS lines? There were quite a few.
The ones I remember are:
Times Square-Grand Central Shuttle
Bowling Green-South Ferry Shuttle
135th Street-145th Street(later 148th Street)Lenox Shuttle
East 180th Street-Dyre Avenue Shuttle
Prospect Park-Franklin Avenue Shuttle
9th Avenue-Ditmas Avenue Culver Shuttle
When the Myrtle Av El stopped running on Oct 4,1969 the SS Myrtle Av Shuttle began service between Metropolitan Av and Myrtle/Bway(Lower Level). The approx. hours of operation were M-F 12 mid-6a and 8p-12mid and all day Sat and Sun. The M nassau St Local would run M-F 6a-8p.The color used for this route was dark green.You are quite right about the number of shuttle services.The 1969 revison of the subway map shows seven routes designated "SS" and with the dark green color;42 St, Bowling Green,Lenox Terminal,Dyre Av, Culver,Franklin and Myrtle Av. BTW the "SS"designation for the Myrtle Av Shuttle lasted until the 1972 edition of the subway map when it was incorporated into the M service.
Best Wishes,Larry,Redbird
Even though the station signs said "SS" for the Myrtle shuttle, I never saw a train signed up as "SS" on it. They were always signed up as "M" and all (except for one, which was an R42 of the high-4800 series) were R7 or R9.
BACK TO THE SUBJECT OF DEKALB AVENUE and its current state of disrepair - first, the curtain walls and side walls need a GOH of the white tile, like that which was done at Pacific and 36th Street.
Problem is, so many lines feed through that station, it presents a logistical dilemma. They'd have to do it piecemeal or shut down some line(s) and do it at night. The tile pattern is that oddball offset one, so they couldn't just throw up fistfuls of white tiles; to do it right they'd have to set them by hand or pre-fab them. The frieze and tablets are pretty much intact, but they need to be reglazed and some spots need fill-ins. They did this at 36th Street. Does anyone have any idea what the compound they use to do this smells like? I DO! It really puts a hurt on your nose! The guys who I watched doing it a few years back down at 36th had gas-mask type facegear on as they worked up on a flatcar-mounted scaffold. I could only stand it for a few minutes; I bailed out on the very next ("R", diverted to the express track) train.
Wayne
I noticed a couple weeks ago that they installed all over the station those strip flood lights (with six light bulbs [ I even !borrowed! one as a souvenier- they say NYCTA on them ]), as well as bright blue lights on the walls about 200 feet before and after the station. Does anyone know of the signifigance of these? Also, the vacumn train was on the express track the other night. It seems there is work going on there EVERY night on everything but the cosmetics of the station.
P.S.-The work is needed soon. I noticed if you stand on the platform and throw a quarter across the tracks agaist the wall, tiles fall down. (they are the small 1inch X 1inch tiles)
Wayne: That's true. The SS Myrtle Av Shuttle was a map designation only and was used from Oct 1969 to 1972 when it was merged into the M on the TA maps.This was another legacy of Chrystie Street in that the route designations on the maps were hopelessly out of sinc with the route designations actually displayed on the train. It took ten years to build the Chrystie St Connection. You would think somewhere in that time they could of had the appropriate sign curtains prepared.
Best Wishes,Redbird
I didn't know TT ran on Dekalb ave line? Where does the TT go?? I never heard TT line on Ex BMT now (B Division).
In the days(and years) before the Chrystie St Connection(Nov 67) opened,the BMT ran the #3 West End-Nassau Street Local between Chambers St and points on the West End Line. When the R-Types started coming into service they bore the designation"TT West End Local." The service prior to Chrystie St had the #3 or TT running M-F 6a-6p btwn Chambers and 9Av/Bay Pkwy(Coney Is-Midday).M-Sa 12mid-6a and 8p-12mid
and all day Sunday the TT ran as a shuttle btwn 36 St(4 Av) and Coney Is.After Chrystie Street opened the B became the main West End service but only ran M-Sa 6a-8p btwn West 4 St and Coney Is,extended M-F rush to 168 St(Wash Hts). The TT continued to run nights and Sundays as a shuttle btwn 36 St and Coney Is until July 69 when the B was made a full time service.
Best Wishes,Redbird
But they weren't sure what the services were going to be until right up to the end. The bedrock of the plan was the new D-Brighton combination, but the other routes were fuzzy. At first, the T was going to continue on Broadway until the 2nd phase (exp tracks) or 3rd phase (57th St) opened (these two phases were combined and opened the same time). Then it was decided that the weekend 6th Av-West End service to W4th or 57th would still be called the T, and the rush hour Wash. Hts service the "BT". The original "EE" designations were "QB", and then "QM", an the QJ may have been the QT. The M was supposed to be replaced by the MM to 57th, and that made it to the signs, but never ran. (We could use this line now, or at least when the bridge reopens. But this was the beginning ot Ridgewood's becoming the forsaken stepchild of the transit system.
in 2 years, the MJ would be taken away.
All of this changing in the plans was covered in the 12-65 through 1967 ERA Bulletins.
That may explain in part why the R-32s didn't originally have B signs on their roller curtains. Apparently, it must have been decided to designate the 6th Ave.-West End service as the B at the last minute. Subsequently, the BB signs on the R-32s were pasted over with Bs.
I agree with Larry: you would have thought the TA had everything worked out well in advance, considering it took ten years to build the Chrystie St. connector.
I can vaguely recall seeing Myrtle Ave. shuttle trains of R-7/9s marked SS in 1969-70-71. We used to take the QJ from Cleveland St. to Fulton St. on Saturdays about every three weeks or so.
Steve: That's very interesting. I know that the R-32's had signs for "SS Shuttle" but I did'nt know that it had been added to the sign curtains of the R1/9's.
Regards,Larry,Redbird
I happen to have a side route roller curtain from one of the R-7/9s which wound up on the Eastern Division. It has an SS/Shuttle sign in addition to the other route signs (KK, LL, M, QJ). What makes the SS sign interesting is that it was printed on a very stiff mylar-like material, then glued to the canvas on both sides.
Did the R7/R9 curtain also have the lost "MM" designation? I seem to remember seeing it during my play period Dec. 27, 1969 aboard the snow-spattered "M" shuttle (I was rolling the cranks around, setting the signs to this and that). My Mom, who came along for the snowy ride, thought it was all great fun and the handful of passengers on the train didn't seem to mind. The conductor, however, was scratching his head come Metropolitan Avenue.
Wayne
I'll have to check my roller curtain. It just might have an MM sign.
I hope you were near the front or back of that M train when you were re-signing it! The only time I ever played around with a rollsign was on a BMT standard while waiting for our train to depart from 8th Ave. I don't remember which route it was set for, but it wasn't "14th St. L'c'l". I started cranking away while my mother was praying the conductor wouldn't spot me, and when the generic "Local" sign came up, I stopped. Later, I learned the "14th St. L'c'l" sign wasn't too far away from that point. On the BMT standard curtains, the routes were grouped by division, Southern Division at one end, Eastern Division at the other, with a few interesting signs thrown in: Nassau St., 14th St. Line, Via Bridge, Via Tunnel. Since every car had two sets of signs on each side, they were pretty informative.
I have one of the large-sized route (upper) curtains from a standard, courtesy of Mr. Rollsign himself, Charles Fiori. About the only marking it doesn't have is "Via Tunnel then Via Bridge" sign which the Banker's Specials would have used.
When the token is finally withdrawn, I know that the attendants will be turned into information people, however, at low use stations (like the fulton st. locals) will they be ther 24hrs? If not will the stations get the Metro Card Revolving Turnstiles? Will all stations eventually have the large, ugly Revolving turnstiles?
I have never seen or heard of a Revolving Turnstile before. I assume it has some sort of head-to-toe barrier that can't be jumped? Are there any pictures of these on the web?
You can see the MetroCard version of the "Iron Maiden" (aka Revolving Turnstile) at:
http://www.cubic.com/annualrpt/cts/page2.html
"You can see the MetroCard version of the "Iron Maiden" (aka Revolving Turnstile) at:
http://www.cubic.com/annualrpt/cts/page2.html"
Interesting. Thank you for the link!
How well do they work? It looks like the sort of thing you could get caught in very easily. I'm sure they designed it so that shouldn't happen, but has the MTA seen a problem with people who refuse to use them because they are afraid of getting stuck?
If you get stuck going *in* you can always go back out! These turnstiles act as exits also so you can never get stuck. At worst, you may lose a fare.
You may not be able to get stuck in the MTA ones, but you're right: some designs are easy to get stuck in.
When I was in about second or third grade, I went to the town swimming pool which had an Iron Maiden for an exit (the pool was heavily used). Of course, being curious, I wanted to see how far around I could go when I exited, and ended up getting stuck inside. They got a key to let the turnstile "reverse" so i could get back out, but it scared the daylights out of my mom! :)
There was an Iron Maiden at the western end of the Manhattan-bound entrance at Lorimer St. on the Canarsie which I used regularly during the three years we rode on that line. It always worked, and I never got stuck. I always liked the rhythmic sound it made as I pushed my way through: click, click-click, click-click click-click, and finally a clunk as it came to a stop. The exit was a floor-to-ceiling revolving door. Interestingly, the same type of exit door is used at Tivoli Gardens in Copenhagen.
Is that Iron Maiden still there at Lorimer St? I haven't been back to that station since June of 1970.
As Dave points out, you can't get stuck in the new Metrocard"iron maiden", but you could get stuck in the old token version. These had three openings into which someone could fit. If you put a token in, it would turn 1/3 of the way, letting the you in to the fare-paid area. These turnsiles were not intended to be used for exit. But if someone within the fare-paid zone didn't understand, and stepped into the available opening in the "iron maiden" at the moment someone outside was entering, that person would get stuck when the turnstile turned 120 degrees. There would be no way out (or back in) until someone else used the turnstile for entry. At that point the "victim" would be freed outside the fare-paid area, the turnstile having moved a total of 240 degrees.
Since the TA made the mistake of re-allowing strollers, etc. back on subways, how are they going to find a way for these customers to exit at a station with no attendant?
As a station agent I can answer that question: There are service gates and stations with wheelchair access have a metrocard opereated gate called "Autogate". You insert a special metrocard(Must be AFAS Metrocard[ADA Fare Access System]) the gate opens itself for entry or exit (yes, you swipe to exit for these).
If someone gets stuck in a turnstile (or elevator) we activate our alarm and advise that someone is stuck in a high qwheel (or elevator.) Police resaponse is swift and the person freed.
PSSST! The question was, what do they do at a station with NO attendant?
I would assume they remove the child, fold the stroller, and go. Now, if you have a bike, or a large package, you're screwed.
-Hank
P.S.-
More And More "Iron Madien" Only entrances Are opening Every Day. They just opened one At Union Sq. East (4,5,6,N,R,L) Last Week, And I am sure after grand central is done there will be one there. There is also no room or sign of any gate entrace/exit for weelchairs, strollers, etc. Then again, sadly, the NYC Subway was never built with the handicapped in mind. ( minus a few small exceptions)
ALL stations have at least one attended 24 hour booth. ALL stations that are shown on the map with the wheelchair symbol have the Autogate.
If you have packages, luggage, carriage, bicycle, etc. you should go to the 24 hour booth. I assure you, when the token is eliminated (and in my opinion dont look for it soon) there will be a 24 hour booth. We will be there to watch our customers.
Yes, however, the TA has stated that when the token is phased out ( I agree...no time soon) token booths will be turned into "Information Booths". Will the TA really pay someone $15-$20/hr to sit in a booth only to answer questions and open gates, on say, the Midnight Shift on the Fulton Local or any other low use station?
Once we dont have to "worry about the money" we will be able to survey station conditions which is currently done by supervision. I also expect that in remote stations we might operate gates via remote control. AT Church Ave on the 2, the booth is on the Manhattan side. I worked the booth. There is a buzzer in the booth and you push a button to open the gate on the Flatbush bound side. Taking it one step further, we might be at Nostrand and push the button for let's say Kingston.
Personally, we the recent concern over security, I think every station will have a human presence- the remote stations might have instructions for us to stay in the booth-- In other words "Security Guards"
***opinions expressed here are my own and not those of MTA or NYCT***
Not entirely true; The Dyre Ave line is unstaffed during the overnight hours. I figure the first few MVMs should go to those stations, since (when I last rode the line) fare was required, and there were no Iron Maidens. I recall a story a few months back where a couple of women were arrested for jumping the turnstiles after they couldn't buy a token or Metrocard at or near the station.
-Hank
OK-change that to "except for the Dyre Avenue Stations North of East 180th Street". You are right- and I did work at Dyre Ave! They gate in the booth overnight and for now they have token machines at these stations.
Suggestion for you to get a "employee of the month award" ...
Why aren't they considering a buzzer or something that a stuck customer can push in an emergency ?
Yes yes ... I know a lot of wise guys will be pushing that button just for fun, but that would be better then the day shift finding a dead customer in the Iron Madien on their tour !!!
Mr t__:^)
There are no pictures that I know of. However, they work and are shaped much like sliding glass doors ( same height, No way to jump or cheat it and with bars instead of glass ) Older ones were exit only, and only revolved in one direction. However the MTA has begun placing the new ones, which will revolve counter clockwise to enter if a metrocard is swiped, at stations where the booth is not open 24hrs. They are also different from the older version because the count the nuber of entries and exits. They do not accept tokens. Some stations which have them at certain exits, and no token booth (or a part time booth) are:
The west entrance to Dekalb Ave.
The North entrance to the southbound Bleeker St.
The Motague St. Entrance of the Court St. Station.
The entire 1/9 northbound from 207st to 242st, Franklin St 1/9, and several other locations. In fact, I saw a northbound station on the 1/9 with 4 of these thing installed....
-Hank
There are many, many people in Queens and Brooklyn (not to mention Staten Island!) who ride ONLY a bus and only board and disembark said bus nowhere near a subway station. Hence, they have no place to buy or refill a Metrocard. Don't tell me stores sell them, because at the only place I saw in northeastern Queens that had a sign advertising it, the owner seemed oblivious to its existence.
In order for a bus-only-not-near-a-subway commuter to obtain a Metrocard, one would have to travel to a station in ones' free time to get one (and of course, spend an extra fare doing so.)
Has anyone at the TA realized that the Metrocard WILL NOT WORK FOR EVERYONE?!
On Staten Island, cards are available at every branch of the Staten Island, Richmond County, and Northfield savings banks. Many check-cashing establishments, and it seems like every other deli sells them as well. And with most Staten Island trips going to/from the SI Mall, SI Ferry, or Manhattan, there are no problems with obtaining a metrocard, except at the Mall, where I haven't seen anyplace that sells them. As for those who take the bus and can't find a place that sells Metrocards, they use CHANGE, because they sure can't find tokens either.
-Hank
Two different answers:
1. On LI the two bus companies there (LI Bus & Suffolk Transit) would seem to have more of this problem then folks in NYC, but you don't see a lot of talk of the "problem" in the paper.
LI Bus bought a different machine then the TA is now tersting & installed them at Hempstead & Roosevelt Field. They're will ti install more if folks were screaming about it, but they're not.
2. One of the "private" bus companies that serves mostly express riders from the Bronx is adding a bill processing device to the Cubic farebox. Right now they're using a "drop box" & I understand that lots of folks are giving them bills for the $3.00 fare.
Mr t__:^)
The MTA Website has details on where to buy a MetroCard.
This is a very strange request guys, but here it goes. I desperately need some photos of subway trains covered with that disgusting graffiti (which plagued the subway system from 1971-1988). Yep- photos of those subway cars that forced us to cringe when they pulled into the station back in the 1970s and 1980s. They could be any model from R-10 series and later. If you could post them here, that would be fine. Or, you can e-mail me at gallant7@mailexcite.com and send them as an attached 'jpg' or 'gif' file. Any assistance will be greatly appreciated!
PS- I wish I had taken some still photos back in those days. I could kick myself today!
Cheers,
MIKE
Mike:
I saw a book about six months ago on just that subject--it seemed to glorify the graffiti artists. Had plenty of photos of cars, trains, stations. I'll try to remember or find the title and author
There is a book dedicated to Graffiti subway trains.
Its called SUBWAY ART BY Martha Cooper. It not at the Transit Museum
but you can get it at Borns N Noble for about $15 Dollars.
My personal guilty pleasure is the video "Style Wars", a documentary on graffiti and the break dancing culture of the early 80s. See the Subway Bibliography under Art and Graffiti for more info.
Does anyone out there have a copy of the following entitled book:
"Information and Instructions for Towerman in Connection with the Operation of Interlocking Plants New York Rapid Transit Corporation June 1st, 1925"
If you do let me know. I only want a Xerox copy.
Every Subway sandwich shop is like taking a tour of the IRT, it's construction and Alfred Ely Beach's Pneumatic subway of 1870. I wonder when the public sits down to eat a sandwich whether they understand the story of the history of NYCTA!!! Neat wall paper. I like the IND map from the 1930's. The Queens Line only goes to 169th Street station.
What did you guys think?
It's been a while since I've been in a Subway shop (they aren't my cup of tea, so to speak), but as I recall the main subway map shown on their wallpaper and counters shows Chrystie Street open and the Culver Shuttle still running. That would date it between late 1967 and early 1975.
The chains seem to have different era maps, depending on which store you're in. I've seen the pre-1948 version map with the dual contract dashes on the Flushing line
In Swindon, England, where I live we have a Subway Sandwich Bar. The wall covering showing subway lines does not appear to have been pasted to the wall with due regard to the actual system making for some interesting journeys i.e. take a No 7 to Metropolitan Avenue, or a No1 to Brooklyn. I cant find Stillwell Avenue which according to the wall is somewhere in the Bronx - still the foods not OK and it does remind me of NY
Simon Billis,
It appears you are in England. The #7 Flushing Line does not go to Metropolitan Avenue and the #1 ends at South Ferry at at the tip of Manhattan. Stillwell Avenue is in Coney Island in Brooklyn and not the Bronx. Tell me more about the Subway Sandwich Bar's art work!!!
I'd love to know where they get the wallpaper :)
--Mark
So would I!!! Does anyone know where they get the wall paper of the Subway Sandwich Shop? It images could be transferred to procelain on steel and used in the subway as historical artwork!!!
All of the Subway restaurants which I've been to in metro Denver have a Hagstrom's map from the late 60s-early 70s. It shows the KK along with the Chrystie St. connections. I love the reaction I get when I suggest there should be sandwiches named the IRT and IND, to go along with the BMT club. Usually they look at me and say, "Huh?" Apparently, none of these kids have ever been to New York, and know nothing about the subway.
Of course not, Subway is a franchise, so the kids in the stores come from where the franchise is located. Denver got rid of streetcars in the early 50's, Light Rail didn't show up until the '90's, and kids in general don't know much about what's in the rest of the world. Their relationship with subways is stuff like "Money Train" and 1-2-3 (remake).
Denver Tramways streetcars made their last run on May or June 3, 1950. They ran on 3 foot, 6 inch gauge track, same as Los Angeles. Our light rail line is now standard gauge.
You're right about kids' limited knowledge about the rest of the world today. Not to mention lack of geographical knowledge. I can't believe the number of people I've met who have never been to New York or, for that matter, east of the Mississippi River. Even the lady I'm seeing has never been to the Big Apple, although I've shown her lots of my photos.
Hey!
I'm 16 years old and think I have some knowledge of what's going on outside the realm of music, clothes and ladies(though it ain't much:)
I'm easily the youngest railfan in all of Philadelphia(or so I like to think).
What's up with the "Fear of the NE" that everyone except it's residents and business people have?
As to being a young railfan, I was running around Baltimore (and the streetcars) when I was 12. My dreams of being a motorman were fulfilled when, in early 1963 I became one on the #8 line out of York Road Car House. That all ended on November 3 of 1963, when car 7084 pulled into Irvington Car House at 5:23 AM and ended 104 years of passenger service. Car 7407 closed it all out when she pulled in 6:34 AM. I refused to drive buses and left the service on Monday, November 4 when I quit.
Now I've got 29 years with BSM, I'm an Instructor and Dispatcher and still love it. The real job just brings in the cash.
My favorite subway yard is Westchester Yard On #6 line.
Concourse - D line
What a fantastic view of this yard while riding the #4 Woodlawn elevated- I typically take pictures when I pass the yard.
cheers,
MIKE
179th Street Yard on the IRT Third Avenue El in the Bronx. Also, like Brooklyn Bridge Yard at Sands Street Terminal in Brooklyn.
My favorite subway yards are the Concourse B and D yard and the #4 train yard since i am 10 minutes away from these yards and i take the D train to work at 47-50th Street Rockefeller Plaza, or the #4 train to work if the D train has a problem.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Coney Island. Various perch points: Neptune Ave (F, north side of platform), ex-Belt Pkwy west roadway used during reconstruction of the Coney Island Creek viaduct, Shell Road, and the ride-through on an N train.
--Mark
Westchester SQ. on the 6 line because of the mixture of
R-29,R 33,R 36, and but least faverite R 62s
38th St. (Bklyn) Yards. Only a few blocks from my home as a "yout",it had an amazing variety of equipment:Diesel locomotives,Low V's and R-1/9's converted to work service,flat cars,cranes,etc. Plus a bus garage (the ORIGINAL 5th Ave.)right next door!
R143 is 60" long or 67" long??? I know those R143 going to "L" line and "M" line in 2001 replace R40m,40,and 42. Any plan to make more new subway cars for Divison B in the future???
They are 60 foot cars.
Although the R-143s are initially destined to go to the L for the purpose of testing new signaling equipment, it wouldn't suprise me if three to five years down the line they end up on the Sixth or Eighth Ave. lines, while the Eastern Division gets back their R-40s/R-40M and R-42s, or possibly even the R-38s or R-42s. For the past 40 years the Eastern Division lines have always gotten the B division hand-me-downs, and the nrew trains they did get before that, the R-16, wasn't anything to write home about.
The R143 will be 60' cars in ABBA configuration. They will have to stay on the 8 car lines of the Eastern Division. From the latest I heard, displaced M/K rebuilt R42's would be reassigned to the N line, with R68 cars going to the new-whatever-the-route-designation-is-going-to-be line going thru the 63 St. tunnell connecting with the Queens IND.
Does anyone have pictures of the Polo Grounds Shuttle in the subway section between Sedgewick Avenue and Jerome-Anderson Avenue stations? Has anyone been in this tunnel?
> Has anyone been in this tunnel?
Does riding through the tunnel in the 1950s count? If so, then yes, I've been in it.
I visted the stations at Sedgewick Av and Jerome-Anderson Avs about ten years ago.The platforms are still intact at Sedgewick Av under the Deegan Expressway. The platform at Jerome-Anderson Av at least the portion of it still remaining can be reached by climbing up a short enbankment from the Jerome Av side. The access to this station from the Anderson Av side was still visible in the form of walled up stairwells at that time. I would advise anyone who might wish to vist these stations to go in a group.
Redbird
When I went there last Sedgwick was pretty much how you described it. At Jerome-Anderson there was a small stairway leading up, also a rocky outcrop but both have been fenced off. You really can't see anything from the ground, not even the platform sticking out. As far as the Anderson Avenue side I really didn't see any sign of walled-up staircases - where exactly were they located? North, south, east, west corner(s)?
As far as safety is concerned, Jerome Ave. is a main thoroughfare out in the open (fairly safe at least during the day). Sedgwick was kind of remote but there were kids playing in the playground with very little chaperoning, so I would assume the area is pretty safe. I was the least comfortable with Anderson Ave., which is up a steep hill away from any major thoroughfares, and lots of people hanging around. The people seemed OK but I felt like I stuck out.
Andrew: It used to be possible to climb up that rocky slope and look at the platform through the fencing. As for the Anderson Av side there was a the staircase that seemed to have been built into a building facade but was bricked up. This was about 12 years ago and I suppose the structure may have been torn down by now. The access to Sedgewick Av was I believe via a footbridge over the Expressway. This footbridge used to end in mid-air near the Metro-North tracks and extreme caution was called for to use it.It sounds as though you have been there recently. How did you get down to the Sedgewick Av platform? You sparked my interest though, I think I'll have to make a trip there to see how things have changed. Thanks for the response.
Redbird
Tell me about your experience. I would like to know.
Ed,
Tell me about your ride through the tunnel on the Polo Grounds Shuttle. Describe the tunnel construction and signaling within.
Well, it's been over 40 years, so I don't remember too much of the details. At that time, the line was operated using old IRT subway equipment (at that time, I didn't know the differnce between a Hi-V and a Low-V), a single two-car train shuttling back and forth over what had been the downtown track.
I've noticed that the two oddball subway lines, the 'L' and #7 and maybe the Rockaway Shuttle(I really want to call it the 'H'), are the only lines with but one connection to another line. I see that there is a sort of problem with N/S trains in Brooklyn and Queens(with there being none in the territory of the 'L' except for the Broadway El and the #7 at QBP worthy of a track connection).
Why is that?
There are a variety of reasons why subway routings may seem strange. Among other things, the main focus of the subway always has been (and still is) commuting to Manhattan. The fact that there's only one line connecting Brooklyn and Queens, and none at all connecting The Bronx and Queens, is not so strange when you look at it from that perspective. Another consideration is that the subway consisted of three more-or-less competing companies prior to unification in 1940. That separate-companies period coincided with much of the system's construction. Clearly, if the subway had always been in the hands of one operator, there wouldn't be four lines running to Coney Island. Finally, city population patterns were sometimes quite different when the lines were built, compared to what they are today. That's most notable in terms of the gaps in service, such as the lack of service to much of eastern Queens (which wasn't as densely populated before 1940 as it is today).
The L and the #7 were not always single lines.The Flushing Line also used to be served by the IRT Second Avenue El and the BMT El Shuttle to Queens Plaza which connected to BMT Broadway trains. The #13 14 St-Fulton St Express used the L tracks between 8 Avenue and Atlantic Av and the #14 Bway-Bklyn Lcl used the tracks between Atlantic Av and Rockaway Parkway.
Regards,Redbird
My favorite station is City Hall on the Lexington Avenue Line.
86th street on the R in bay ridge------one of the system's best.
I like Atlantic Avenue on the L. It's almost like something out of a history book, what with the abandoned trackways and platforms and the ruins of the old LIRR powerhouse. Yet it still functions just fine, and even has a direct connection to the LIRR.
A toss-up between:
Houston Street on the 1, 59th/Lex Complex on the 4/5/6/N/R, 5th Avenue N/R, and Cortlandt Street N/R.
I also like 50th on the 1, 168 on the 1.
My favorite subway station Bowling Green and Borough Hall on the No. 4&5 line platforms
I will vote by division:
IRT - Mott Avenue (149th St-Grand Concourse)
BMT - Wilson Avenue (Canarsie Line) Montrose Avenue (same) (TIE)
IND - Utica Avenue (Fulton Street)
It seems like the stations with the best artwork get the vote!
Wayne
Hey Wayne! Just to tell you what the TA thinks of history, the marblized "NY CENTRAL LINES" name in the passageway to the lower level IRT lines at 149 St and the Concourse has been covered by a Bergen Street Shop sign pointing you in the right direction to a 2/5 train. Oh well! So much for preserving history! If I had my way, I probably would've cut the tiling out and put it in the Transit Museum.
I may have more scrap news for you which I'll email to you....
-Constantine
Adams Street on the Myrtle Avenue Elevated. On the station house was on a corner while the elevated turned a corner.
Also, like Sand Street terminal on the BRT and King County Elevated RR.
Coney Island - Stillwell Avenue.
Atlantic Avenue on the Canarsie Line! Just look at her - 82 years old and still shining!
Wayne
My favorite Elevated station is the Bedford Park Blvd station of the #4 train. From there i can look into the Concourse yard of the D and B trains.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Mine's a toss up between Coney Island - Stillwell Ave and Broadway Junction - East New York. Lots of action and history at both stations.
--Mark
I like Smith/9th for the view of the Manhattan Skyline. Second place goes to Broadway Junction/Eastern Parkway Complex on the J/L.
My Favorite Elevated stations are E 180 St and Stillwell Ave
How about Smith-9th on the F/G?..if nothing else but for the view.. I also enjoy the sheer remoteness of some of the Rockaway stations...
The R-44 (5202-5479) is on the A line. The R-46 (5482-6258) is on the F, G and R lines. Interiors are in beige and brown wood with orange and yellow plastic seats.
Does R-46s run on the B, D, N and Q lines
R44/46 ran on B,D,in the 70s and N in the 80s before switch to Astoria line in 85 or 86??
R-44s did run on the D in the early 70s. I know they were tested on the line.
In the early 80s, I believe, the R-46s were transferred to the D line. They didn't last long - people along the line complained of vibration from the trucks. They were put back on the F line.
R-44s are primarily on the A line now.
R-46s are on primarily on the H Rockaway Park shuttle, F, G & R lines, though you'll also see them on the N or E once in a while.
--Mark
You will not see R-46s on the H or the N. R-46 come out of Jamaica Shop ONLY. H comes out of Pitkin and N out of Coney Island and never the shops shall meet.
Does R-46s run on the J, L, M and Z lines?
No!!! J,M,Z & L come out of East NY yard. R-46s are based in Jamaica.
Ugh, no!
See the Subway FAQ for a somewhat recent list of car assignments.
(Could you maybe post all your questions in a single message? Also if you are new to the site you might want to explore it entirely-- click on the www.nycsubway.org logo at the top of any page to go to the main index. SubTalk is not all there is here!)
-Dave
Mr. Pirmann
This guy i think is playing around. Look at every responds this
guy made. 2/4/99 every thing he wrote was about blinking lights
Now he is mixing up equitment. HE IS NOT FOR REAL!
March 1992
N service returns to the Montague Street Tunnel
October 1992
S shuttle replaces H to the Rockaways
A special rush hour service to Rockaway Park
A shuttle operates between Euclid Av and Lefferts Blvd.
R service cut back to 71 Av.
I was reading a book call "New York City Subway Cars" and I was looking at R40m. I saw a picture of damage R40M # 4500-01. Then i was looking at Cars wrecked/scrapped while in revenue service and i don't see no information of R40M #4500 but it has #4501 information and i want to know what happened to R40M # 4500?
I believe both 4500 and 4501 are still in service.
Wayne
They most certainly are. #4501 collided with R16 #6304 on 20 May 1970 at Roosevelt Avenue and had her bonnet broken and her sign side damaged. She was repaired using sheet stainless steel from Slant R40 #4200 and received a new bonnet as well. She was about one year old when the accident happened, and the damage, as ugly as it may have appeared, was repairable.
#6304 was not as fortunate. She was sheared open when she made contact with the curtain wall, and two of her passengers died.
Wayne
R33WF/R36WF subway cars blink on and off
R26/28/29/33/36 Redbirds blink on and off
I can't believe there is a thread about which cars blink on and off
For the record, the original carbody lighting design called for
the lights to be run directly off the 600V supply (with a
polarity reverser relay when flourescents came along). A relay
called the ELR (Emergency Lighting Relay) was also across the line.
When the 600V failed (car crosses a contact rail gap), the relay
goes off and the normally-closed contacts of the relay apply 37V
battery voltage to a set of emergency, or "battery" lights.
On the IRT redbirds, these are incandescent bulbs located along
the center of the car. There are some inside the long flourescent
glass fixture, and there is one each in the center of each axiflow
fan.
To the best of my knowledge, the only cars left in passenger service
that still function this way are the World's Fair, aka Flushing,
aka Corona R33S/R36 fleet. When the R26/28/29 fleet was overhauled
by MK, the battery lights were removed from the center of the fans
and PA speakers replaced them. I can't remember for sure if the
same thing was done on the R33/R36 Mainline cars that 207 St rebuilt.
On these cars, a solid-state converter replaces the older motor-
generator set for converting 600 to battery voltage, and the
same converter unit also contains a solid state lighting inverter to
take the battery voltage, chop it to AC, and step it up to drive
the flourescent bulbs. When 600 goes off on these cars, the lights
stay on fully for up to about 30 seconds. In prolonged power-out,
the inverter gradually shuts down banks of lights until only two
lights are on in the entire car. I don't think any incandescent
battery lights are used, but someone in the shops would have a
better recollection of that.
The Flushing cars were rebuilt in 1985 by Coney Island, before the
more thorough car overhaul program was devised. They left a lot
of "old technology" behind, including the M-G and the classic SMEE
pneumatic units. That's why those are the only cars that still
go "puff" when the doors close.
The lights on the R44 contracts and onwards never blinked.
Jeff, you are 100% correct. The inverter ballasts were installed during GOH on all cars except the Corona #7 fleet. The R-42s came with converters but used an inverter card for all lights prior to overhaul. As an RCI, I had to carry boxes of 20 Amp cartridge fuses to keep them lit on the weekend.
R-10 (1803-1852, 3000-3349) was on the C line from 1985-1989. R-10s were painted in green. Interiors are in beige with dark grey plastic seats and green doors. Those R-10s were very loud. The R-10 was the loudest subway cars in the NYC subway system
I took the R10 three time in my life and i don't really like R10 because is very loud while riding. One time i took the R10 on the C line from downtown manhattan to Rockaway park and i didn't enjoy riding the R10.
I rode on the R-10s once in my life. It was a third grade class trip to the Museum of natural history. Big, green, fans on ceiling, and a druink at the end of the car. You couldn't understand the intercom, and the doors closed with a 1" gap. Big, loud, fun. I forgot what we went to the museum for.....
"Big, loud, fun...."
You said it! One man's mead is another man's poison. I remember riding the R-10's on the LL. Time of your life, huh kid?
The R-10s will forever be synonimous with the A line, having been exclusively assigned there for more than 25 years. I rode many, many A trains of R-10s in my day, mostly from 42nd St. to 14th St. and up CPW. I also remember walking down the platform at 81st St. after disembarking from an AA, and seeing an A train thunder past at breakneck speed.
The R-10s were on the noisy side, no doubt about that. Even so, the noise level during their heyday was tolerable, and nothing compared to the ear-splitting noise level of Chicago's L trains in the subway. It was only towards the end of their lives that the R-10s were really noisy, especially if you were on a car with a noisy truck.
I can honestly say that I'm probably the biggest R-10 fan around, next to Mr. R-10 himself, William Padron, and miss those cars very much. The A line will never be the same without them.
Yep-they were noisy, and loud and FAST! I remember when the T.A. would feature the newest car arrival on the system map; once I got ahold of one (albeit a very long time ago) which featured the R10; and quoted a speed of 80MPH - of course it was never achieved within the confines of the subway, but it did inidcate that it COULD!
I rode the R10's from Brooklyn to Manhattan as a child with my folks before we moved to Queens 1953 to 1963; only to ride once again to Bklyn Tech after riding a BMT Standard (14) or R16 (14/15) on the Jamaica Line from 168th St to Bway Jnctn, then switching to a R10 on the "A" to Lafayette Ave. Home was via the "A" R10 to W4th, then the "E/F" which were always R1/9's till about 1966....Also remember what I believe was the FIRST air conditioned car in the system 4149, running on the "F" line (back when the "F" terminated at Bway-Lafayette).
During that time period, I agree with the poster who indicated there was NO P.A. system. The conductor had to go outside between cars to open/close doors. I believe the first cars with a P.A. system on the IND were the R16's, which were used VERY briefly on the "A", before they ended up on the Jamaica Line (15).
Yes, R10s were a part of my formative subway years and a target of my early number-gathering. I have spotted all 400 of them, including almost all of their original #1800s numbers. Some of my fond memories of them are #3194 as the lead car of a n/b "A" running from 145th to 168th at 50+mph - it was a dark car (emergency lites under the hubs of the fans - NEAT) - #3062's untimely demise in July of 1970 (she got creamed by an R-6-3 #986 - I have her dog tag), #3124 in its psychedelic coat of graffitti back in 1973, #2974 as an "H" train roaring over the trestle in 1987, the wreck of #3333 and #3274 in 1978, and finally, seeing them passing Fulton Street BMT station on their farewell trip in 1988. I tried chasing them on the following train but 'twas for naught. I never saw them again.
Wayne
The R-10's have always been my favorite. I used to take a circuitous route to shool just so I could ride on them. Rather than take the D or B at Broadway Lafayette to Dekalb (Yes, some B trains stopped at DeKalb back then), I would take the LL to Lorimer and catch the GG to Fulton St. Another variation involved taking the F to Jay St., then taking an A to Hoyt, then either the GG to Fulton or a CC to Lafayette. I remember when they painted them green...It was like a dream come true! And now they're gone. :(
The R-10's were fast, reliable, and, to quote Gene Sansone, like "Panzer Tanks."
Did R-10s ran on the F line?
R10 does run on F line in the late 70s and early 80s. R10 ran on A line in the late 60s and early 70s, B,C,CC,D,E,F,And J line. R10 ran the C line in early 80s untill retire in the 1990.
R10 did indeed appear on the "F" line in the early 1980s, when R10 was assigned to the Jamaica yard and used mostly on the "GG". It was not the regular train - R46 was - and was used mostly as extras or as a fill-in. But I did see them there, albeit rarely.
Also - R16 also ran on the "E" and/or the "F" in the 1970s. Talk about a slow express run!
Wayne [mrSlantR40]
The R-10s found their way to Jamaica Yard when the truck cracking problem on the R-46s reached crisis proportions. The R-46s went over to the then-CC for rush hour service in an attempt to hold their accumulated mileage down, and the R-10s were assigned to the E and F lines. I saw one E train of R-10s during my last visit to New York before moving out to Colorado, on September 5, 1980.
Back when they ruled supreme on the A line, the R-10s rarely made cameo appearances on other lines. Some were used on the B when it made its debut; others ran on the HH and occasionally the CC. After being displaced from the A by the R-44s and slant R-40s, the R-10s ran mostly on the CC and later C line, but they were used on just about every other IND route at one time or another. I even saw and rode a D train of R-10s once, and the way it roared up CPW, you would have thought you were on an A. Since its destination curtains didn't have Brighton Beach signs, the Brooklyn-bound destination sign was left blank.
The last A train of R-10s I rode on was about 1979. The funny thing was that the end cars were signed up for the A, while the 8 other cars had CC signs. Apparently, they took a CC train and slapped an additional car on each end. It didn't matter - for that day at least, those ten R-10s were back where they belonged!
BTW, ATRAIN and R-10 were two of my choices for personalized license plates when I first pondered the move. SUBWAY and R-32 were two others. 8AVEXP, which is what my plates now say, was the last combination I came up with. When I picked up a new application, that was the first choice I put down.
I think "Thunderbirds" would be a good nickname for the R-10s, in keeping with the bird theme (Redbirds, Bluebirds) which seems to be popular.
I was particularly fond of the white-and-aqua paint scheme, with the narrow aqua band around the car at the belt rail.
You mean the R-10 Bluebirds? They were repainted about the same time the R-33/36WF trains arrived and some were even given the new TA logo. It was certainly a better color choice than what the MTA came up with, though I think the Redbird R-10 in the photo archive looks pretty cool.
Thunderbirds definitely fits if you were a passenger waiting to get on a AA local on CPW when an A of R-10s rolled by. You could hear the rumble when the train was 10 blocks away, though it was backwards from real thunder -- the thunder came first and you didn't see the lightning (from the third rail) until the train raced through the station.
The r-10's were and are my favorite car by far. Unfortunately, I tortured my poor mother as a child with them. Between the ages of 5 and 8 or so, when I would go to work with my mother on a rare day, I would beg her to ride the CC home instead of the D (we lived at the 205th stop.) Of course I had no idea how annoying that may be to take the extreme local from Penn Station to Bedford Park and change would be compared to getting the Manhattan and Bronx express. All I knew was that I liked the single corner seats and the fans. Until this day, they remain my most treasure car... For reasons beyond the single seat and fans....
You would have liked them even better on the A.
That hits a slight sore spot since the A is my favorite line and I missed that ride...
Sorry if I hit a raw nerve. I meant it sincerely, though. To me, nothing will ever top an A train of R-10s rocketing along CPW, and I'm thankful I was able to ride on as many of them as I did. Maybe it was the noise which made them seem to go even faster than they actually did. I also managed to ride on a few D trains of R-1/9s along that stretch, but that's a whole different subject.
If you're an A aficionado, your appreciation for the R-10s would have gone up to next level. They were second to none. BTW, at what point in time did you ride the CC? Up until 1979-80, you could still find an occasional A train of R-10s, even though the slant R-40s had taken over that route.
I basically rode the CC and D since I was around three years old, 1976 until 1988 or so. And at the time, the Concourse line was the worst one. To add insult to injury, in the mid 80's when they split the D line into two because of Manhattan bridge work, the TA gave all the new r-68's to the Brooklyn D, leaving the Bronx D with the WORST cars in the system at the time, without a doubt.
To be honest, I would rate the D as my second favorite route after the A. My first ride on a D train was on April 30, 1967, which included a trip from Rockefeller Center all the way to Coney Island via the Culver line (the Chrystie St. connection hadn't opened yet). I rode on an A for the first time three months later, on July 20.
While I've ridden on more A trains than any other train by far, the D actually beats out the A on two counts in my personal experiences: I've ridden on more D trains of R-1/9s than A trains of those venerable prewar juggernauts, and I've ridden on a couple of D trains of R-1/9s along CPW, motors wailing away. I never did ride any prewar A trains along that stretch.
When I visited New York in October of 1984, after a four-year absence, the D line was served by R-32s and R-42s. Speaking of R-32s, I remember when they first appeared on the D, right after the Chrystie St. connection opened. Riding them along CPW was a real treat; they streaked along effortlessly.
P. S. I once rode on a D of R-10s, in 1978 or 1979.
Well, looks like you Subtalkers are spending more time here (or there are more of you now). So far since the server upgrade a little over 5 days ago there have been 38,500 accesses to Subtalk/Bustalk. We never broke 35,000 in a 7 day period (measured Sunday 3am to Sunday 3am) before.
Thanks for your patronage!
-Dave
(no need to follow up with praise this time :-)
actually, these numbers may be squishy. I at least had some glitches locally which caused multiple visits within a 24 hr slot. All that aside now that this machine is behaving differently, I can and do appreciate the lovely pix at the top.As always thanks for providing the first place I visit each eve.
P. S. As I suspected when returning to index it call this a new visit--so if I respond to ten posts I have visited 11 times in one day??
> P. S. As I suspected when returning to index it call this a new
> visit--so if I respond to ten posts I have visited 11 times in one
> day??
Yes but this is the way it always worked.
-Dave
That is what happens if you click the "Return to Subtalk Index" but if you instead backtrack through your history, you will simply continue your present visit. (Of course you don't pick up any new posts that way)
See - now that the server's faster I can afford to "return to the message index" more often. So that's probably why the numbers are changing. Oh BTW thanks for straightening out the thread/response displays (all the little symbols are appearing correctly now at the bottom).
Wayne
Is it my imagination, or did access to the main nycsubway.org server speeded up when Subtalk moved to brighton.nycsubway.org? Sure seems like it to me in beautiful Baltimore. (Where the Towering Inferno came real!)
Why doesn't MTA rebuilt Third Aveune EL? There is too many people on the #2 and #5 train and outside by 149st i see people coming out of train station and there a long line waiting for BX55 bus. Why this they torn down Third Aveune EL in the 70s?
The Third Aveune El in the Bronx if you remember, the stations were old and not to many people used it. Also the so called Second Ave Subway was supposed to take its place but due to the money crunch of the 70's it was never done. The NY post and Daily News last week ran a few articles about plans to build some new lines to the Bronx and Brooklyn to help solve this problems.
Charlie Muller of Bedfor Park Blvd.
Was the 3rd AV El. in the bronx built before the IRT?
Russ, that i do not know. Maybe someone else knows if the 3rd AV El was built before the IRT.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd
2nd ave,3th ave, 6th ave, 9th ave and Brooklyn EL was built before 1904
The Third Av. El in the Bronx was known as somthing like the Suburban Line in its early days.
Right, you win the prize!!!
[2nd ave,3th ave, 6th ave, 9th ave and Brooklyn EL was built before 1904]
The main portions in Manhatan, yes. But not the northern portions in the Bronx. As someone else noted, the original northern terminal of the Third Ave. el was "Bronx Park", locatd I believe just north of Fordham Rd. The extension along Webster Ave. to Gun Hill and White Plains roads was built in conjunction with the building of the White Plains Road elevated line. The two-level station at Gun Hill/White Plains was certainly constructed as a unit, the upper level wasn't built above a pre-existing Third Ave. el station.
The same argument applies to the northern reaches of the Ninth Ave. el (later the Polo Grounds shuttle); the section in the Bronx was constructed in conjunction with the Jerome Ave. elevated line.
The particular portion of the el at Bedford Park Blvd was part of
the last expansion of the IRT Elevated Railway System in 1920.
I am going to write a paper on the subject of the 3rd Ave El in the Bronx. I wrote a description of the 205th St Subway Station.
The 3rd Ave. elevated predates the IRT except for the portion between Fordham Road and Gun Hill Road, which was built along Webster Avenue and Gun Hilll Road. The Manhattan portion opened between 1878 and 1880; the Bronx portions up to Fordham Road were built from 1887 until 1901, in stages. The Bronx portion was originally the Suburban Rapid Transit Co., and provided a shuttle to the 2nd and 3rd Ave. lines at 129th St. By the late 1890's through trains at a nickel fare were offered; at the same time, the entire Manhattan and Bronx el network became the Manhattan Railway Company. In 1903 the IRT leased the Manhattan for 999 years in order to integrate its new subways with the els. That is why the Webster Avenue portion did not open until 1920, constructed (under the Dual Contracts) in conjunction with an extension of the original IRT Bronx line (along Westchester Avenue/Southern Blvd./Boston Road) to White Plains Road and 241 St. Under the Dual Contracts, the original 3rd Ave. el was reconstructed with a third express track from Chatham Square to Fordham Road.
When the el was demolished south of 149th St. in 1955, the Bronx portion was retained because it served an area without any alternative rail transit. By the early 1970's population losses in the south-central Bronx and the deterioration of the el structure were arguments in favor of its demolition.
Unlike the Brooklyn El's, the Bronx El's were build by the IRT except the 3rd Ave. El?
The Bronx Els were built by the IRT as part of the Dual Contracts except for the section of the Third Av. El south of Bronx Park (The Suburban), and the section between 149th St. and Bronx Park (a different Bronx Park) which was part of the original IRT. In many cases, as also happened in Brooklyn, El Trains operated over some of the new lines while connections to the subway were being constructed. All existing elevated structure in the Bronx is considered 'subway' trackage. The only remaining active original el in the system is that between East New York & Crescent St. Some unused pieces may remain around Broadway Junction and at Brodway-Myrtle.
The Third Avenue El in the Bronx was known originally as the suburban line. It originally operated to Bronx Park and there was car elevated there.
Does anyone know anything about that abandoned subway station on the 1,9 between 88th and 96th streets?
It is the 91 Street Station.
Are there others like it? Is there a way to get down to see them? Why are they abandoned? Forgive my naive questions if they are obvious--I don't know much about the subway in NY.
Ahh you must be a newcomer to this site! Check out our pages on Disused and Abandoned Stations and you shall be enlightened! :-)
-Dave
Several stations were abandoned in the late 1950s on the IRT lines when the platforms were expanded to handle longer trains. Along with 91st St on the 1/9, the City Hall, 18th and Worth St. stations on the 6 also were closed.
On the BMT, the Myrtle Ave. station was closed when DeKalb was lengthened and flying junctions that were built on the Brooklyn-bound side were put in where the platform was located.
As fas as I know, Dean St. on the Franklin Shuttle is the only El station that was abandoned without the entire line being taken down (like Third Ave., where the lower level of Gun Hill Road could be considered a partial abandonment)
You can also throw in 19th St. on the PATH, though I don't know if the platforms at 14th and 23rd were ever lengthened.
> You can also throw in 19th St. on the PATH, though I don't know
> if the platforms at 14th and 23rd were ever lengthened.
I am guessing that they have been lengthened. Witness the ends of the platforms that are almost inside the tunnels. This is especially apparent at the south ends of the 9th and Christopher St. stations. The stations at 14th & 23rd also seem to have been lengthened (note the tapering ends so that the extreme edge of the platforms is no more than a foot or so wide!) This is a safety problem even today so it's unlikely they were built like this, and instead built to extend the platforms at all possible costs.
The uptown line can still only accommodate 7 car trains and that's with the extreme ends of the trains off the platforms.
Actually its still possible to see the location of the H&M 28 Street Station if you look very carefully at the tops of the roof columns when leaving 33 Street.
Redbird
It seems that the 91st street station has sparked yet another interest. It is what got me into the hobby of subways. You look out the window and see an abandoned station and say, what the heck is that, and the next day you are a member of the Transit Museum. Go figure.
Welcome aboard. It's unfortunate that they are not
doing any more (at this time) Day One of the IRT
tours. That tour allowed us to actually explore 91st St.,
18th St.(East Side), and the originally City Hall
station.
It is possible it might appear in the next Transit Museum season. I found a tour sponsered by a CUNY continuing education program whose description says that they go into City Hall. It might be an old description though.
My favorit is the fifth avenue station on the E and F lines, the Whole 42nd and Times Square station......lots of tunnels, and Broadway and Nassau with all the ramps and stairs. I like deep stations because it shows how deep the subway is in some areas especially the long ramp all the way up from the 7 train to the N and R at Times Square. Funny how you are still underground. Finally my favorite station is Wall street station with the old wooden booth on the south side and the color motif is cool too.
My experience is limited to Chicago.
My favorite L and Subway Stations in Chicago Are:
The Washington, Monroe,Jackson one platform with three stations in it on the Blue line below Dearborn and Red below state Street. This has to be our coolest subway station(s). What is also cool about it is the transfer between the two subways ( they are right next to each other, 1 city block apart) you walk underneath the platform and tracks throught a tunnel and back above to station level in the other subway station, so you are acually below the subway! And of course the three stations in one continuous platform. It just says at the areas of the platform you aren't suppost to enter not to enter there, surprisingly I have never seen any homeless there or any remains of them and there are no human waste smells.
My favorite Elevated Station here would be tough. I like Quincy/Wells for it's Old fashioned style and how it was renovated to look like it was back in the 1890's. Also the New Library station in the loop at State/Van Buren is pretty cool with the way it covers the sidewalk with a massive roof and just the new age style of the station.
Outside of Downtown (and Chicago for that fact) The Forest Park terminal on the Blue Line Congress-Forest Park Branch is pretty neat. The roof over the station is a steel type design and it covers not only the island platform but also the tracks completely. Plus the train yards are on the other side of the massive park-n-ride lot and you can watch trains turn around in the park-n-ride lot.
BJ
underground New York a toss-up between 34th &6th--a wonderful labyrinth or W 4th st its so massive so IND
above NYSmith 9th
Chgo extant Howard still the most complex
I like Wilson Avenue on the "L" for:
a) the upstairs/downstairs platforms with the view of the cemetery on the upper level
b) the multicolored tile - there are 28 different colors in it
c) the fact that the station's lower level looks underground but it's really at street level
d) the unique entrance and passageway.
I also have others too numerous to list.
Wayne
Hello SubTalkers, LIVE from Bangkok, Thailand.
I'm winding up a two-week vacation here. It's a wonderful country, with terrific people. The food can't be beat -- and the exchange rate makes travel extremely economical.
It took a while, but I figured out how to connect to the 'Net without it costing a fortune. Most telecommunications gateways charge $1/minute to connect to "on-line" services in the US, such as CompuServe or AOL. However there are numerous Internet Cafes, where you can use the 'Net for as little as $1.75/hour. But, my Thai friend found an ISP that gives out a 10-hour free demo, so that's how I'm connected now.
To the point: If any city needed rail transporation, this is it. Until the early 60's, Bangkok had a pretty good electric streetcar system. In fact, the son of the founder of the Seashore Trolley Museum showed me some 16mm film his father had taken here around that time while riding the systems of Asia. But like most systems around the world, the trolley gave way to diesel buses. And they are everywhere here! Belching huge amounts of black smoke.
Same with trucks, motorcycles, and many cars. There are no emmissions controls here; it's the most polluted air I've ever experienced.
I had heard that the traffic was "legendary," but figuring that since I grew up in NYC, I'd seen it all. NOT! Remember when the gas tank truck overturned on the LIE on a late Friday afternoon last summer, and the entire Island shut down? Well, that's Bangkok on a good day! It can take 2-3 hours to go 20 miles.
The good news is that a modern city rail system is finally being built. Almost all of the overhead structure is up (single concrete piers, rising about 50 feet above the center of main streets, expanding to a dual trackway). I did not see any of the rail cars, but there are picture around, and they look a bit like modern versions of the RER express trains in Paris. The system is due to open its initial portion late this year, and none too soon! If the economy improves, there are plans to expand the system too.
Well, time to go out and do some final shopping before the 20+ hours of flying back to Boston tomorrow. And see you on the radio in NYC in a week.
Oh, by the way, it's been a humid 93F most days. And that's Bangkok Traffic and Weather Together.
Passed through Bangkok on my way to Singapore a few years ago. Agree that the folks there are very nice.
The humidity there must have always been above 80% even in the middle of the day. The temperature/humidity index must have ben awful. Singapore has a great rapid transit system though (called the MRT or Mass Rapid Transit). Even got to ride in the cab for a while courtesy of the NYC Transit System tee-shirt I was wearing while in the system.
--Mark
Todd, Thanks for sharing this with us :-)
For me transit news with a varity keeps drawing me back to this site for more & more input.
Mr t__:^)
If the R-44 are coupled in numerical sequence then the last two cars;5478x256 and 5479x257 must be coupled as an A-B unit. Does anyone know if this is true?
Thanks,Redbird
5478 - 79 is mated to 5404 - 05. I'll be fowarding my cross reference list of R-44/46 cars to Dave, later today...
Before 1990 I was in the F line in Queens and got off to take the R train to manhattan. So I saw a R46 With A-B-A-B-B-A on G line before they renumbeing. Also the G line have A-A-A-B-B-A.
13 G trains are in the A-A A-B-B-A configuration. The 14th is, as you stated, in the A-B A-B-B-A configuration. The A-B unit is 6206-07 (formerly 1206-07). 6207 is the only R-46 that can still be operated from the #1 end of the B car (yard moves only) using a mini controller called a hostler. The A-A units are numnbered 6208-6210 etc. (even numbers only)
I was wondering if #5480 and #5481 are the A-B pair. I haven't seen them, so I'm not sure if they're even out there.
There's a few odd bunches in the R44s
#5246-7 with #5336-7 is another.
I originally had #5316-5317-5405-5318 (#5319 was a fire victim)
and #5478-5479-5403-5404, so I'll have to make some corrections.
Wayne
5480 and 5481 were never used. The R-44 end at 5479 and the R-46 start at 5482. Perhaps it was hoped at one time to repair two of the wrecked units to fill the gap and make an even number of 4 car sets.
Redbird
Recently I was looking at an interactive test that purports to rate your chances of becoming a victim of violent crime. The test is sponsored by the Nashville Police Department and is at www.nashville.net/~police/risk/beaten.html. Some of the questions are a bit dopey - for example, one of them asks whether you wear a raincoat or overcoat over a suit ... what in the world could *that* possibly have to do with crime risks???
Anyway, I took the test, and as I suspected I had a low risk rating. But according to the risk profile, one dangerous habit of mine is that I commute by train or bus. According to the geniuses at the Nashville P.D., using mass transit "puts me in contact with carless criminals." Guess old prejudices die hard ...
> one of them asks whether you wear a raincoat or overcoat over a
> suit ... what in the world could *that* possibly have to do with
> crime risks???
suit = well off. More likely that the suit wearer is carrying money, credit cards, cell phones, laptop computer, etc.
I saw that stupid test, and I wanted to e-mail them about that very issue, but there was no return e-mail address on the page.
As to the questions like the raincoat over a suit, and other suit-related questions, what is the bloody point? On the off chance that someone will rob you, don't wear nice clothes, wear a crappy digital watch and carry a crappy bag instead of a nice briefcase? I know that I'm not going to stop putting on a jacket and tie for work on the off chance that some moron will get the (WRONG!) idea that I must be rich and decide to rob me. Same with having a nice car -- I'm not driving a luxury car by any stretch of the imagination (a '98 Ford Escort), but I'm not going to drive a junker just to keep it from being stolen.
I just went back and looked at the test, and it was even stupider than I remembered it being. According to the test, if you want to reduce your chance of being a victim, you:
*should not walk in public more than five times a month,
*should answer the door unarmed,
*should not go to business or trade conventions,
*should not go to nightclubs or dance halls, or
*should not travel more then 1000 cumulative miles from your home city in a year.
I'm not making these up! Doing the opposite of anything on the above list adds points to your score as a potential victim. Who bloody well wrote this? A life lived according to most of this advice would be a mere existence, not worth living.
Another idiotic thing on the test concerned use of ATMs after dark. All right, that can be dangerous in certain places. But the creators of the test then suggested that ATMs be located in police stations! Yep, I can just imagine the cops enthusiastically embracing that idea.
Seriously, though, we can laugh about how stupid the test is, but its jaundiced view of mass transit does reflect an all-too-common attitude.
If ya wear cowboy boots, a Stetson Hat, duster and a string tie ya must be OK pilgrim but if ya wear a suit and tie you must be an easy mark. Good ole boys don't use transit anyway. (none available) A pick up with a well stocked gun rack is a good deterent to crime.
I'm 26 - but according to this survey "It would be a good idea [for me] to make out a will" Actually when I included that I could "run over three hundred meters (300 M) without stopping to walk" that reduced my risk 10 points to a mere 77 out of 80 - where 80 means you're as good as dead.
I'll keep the running thing in mind the next time I'm being chased by a scary person with a butcher knife down a subway platform, which on average, is probably close to 300M (~1000ft).
[I'm 26 - but according to this survey "It would be a good idea [for me] to make out a will" Actually when I included that I could "run over three hundred meters (300 M) without stopping to walk" that reduced my risk 10 points to a mere 77 out of 80 - where 80 means you're as good as dead.]
You can knock another ten points off your score if you regularly go walking with a dog or with a child under age eight. Now, the dog, that might indeed reduce one's risk - but of course that depends on the dog. Going for a stroll with your St. Bernard probably does help keep you safe. But somehow I don't think that a Chihuahua or a Yorkie will deter many criminals. And what about the child under age eight? Are we to assume that criminals are too tender-hearted to attack a parent of a small child? I'd think that you'd be better off if your child is at least 13 or 14, presumably old and large enough to help you fight off an attacker.
All in all, that risk test was so dopey that I just can't get too worked up about its anti-transit attitude. Its creators are not merely ignorant about transit - they're ignorant, period.
I want to know how is happened at Morris Park Ave after wreck the subway car # 7602?
An you know that the Elevated line is going to be 100 years old by 2004. Are the MTA going to replace the Elevated beams? Or the Elevated beams is strong enought to hold for next 50 years?
A article in the Friday February 5 New York Post page 18, the N and R service will be unterrupted on the following weekends, Feb 6th-8th, 13th-16, 20th-22nd and Feb 27-March 1, there will be no N service between 57th Street and Queensboro Plaza and no R service at all.
Times affected are from 12:01 am Saturday to 5AM Monday, and until 5AM Tuesday on Feb 16th, since Monday Feb 15th is President's Day.
Also, 5th Ave and Lexington Ave stations will be closed.
N customers can transfer to the #7 train between Queensboro Plaza and Manhattan.
R customers can use the E and F trains between Queens and Manhattan.
Use the N train between Manhattan and Brooklyn.
Shuttle buses will operate in Brooklyn between 59th Street and Bay Ridge/95th Street Stations.
I know this is long, but here we go again on disruptions of train service.
Charlie Muller of Bedfor Park Blvd.
Where can you buy a 24 hour pass at O'hare? Last time I was in I could not find anywhere in airport.
How much do those passes cost. Also is CTA still a Two man
operation. Because i heard that they have One Person Train Operation.
Is That True?
CTA rapid transit is operated on an OPTO basis. However, during rush hours (6-9:30 am and 3:30 to 7 pm), there are conductors on the Red and Blue Line trains as they pass through the downtown subways. In other words, they get on the trains on the first stop in the tunnel and get off right before it leaves the tunnel on the other side of downtown.
There are machines selling Visitor Passes (1, 3, and 5-day passes) right in front of the O'Hare subway station. The Visitor Pass machines are next to the larger Transit Card machines.
Would someone explain to me why the entire Manhattan-bound 7 service must be disrupted for over 30 minutes by a 'queasy' passenger (train emptied, cops, paramedics, the works), but when someone is robbed and assaulted, the motorman cannot be bothered to blow the horn or contact the police? (The token clerks are similarly apathetic.) This exact scenario happened to me in July, 1992 on the 5. Despite much visible bloodshed, I was able to get to the conductor (Good thing this was a Redbird; you can't go from car to car on most newer rolling stock!) to report what had happened and ask for assistance. His response was "Gotta keep the trains moving, buddy; can't hold things up for one passenger." When we arrived at Union Square, he simply opened the doors, letting the eight teenage thugs escape to commit more mayhem. I found a platform attendant whose suggestion was that I should chase them; and not to make a scene, the Democratic convention is in town and visitors don't want to see crime like this on the subway- it makes New York look bad. (Sorry I couldn't get robbed and beaten at a more P.C. time!!) There was no cop in the entire Union Square complex, and at that time maps didn't show where the precincts were. No matter; I was more concerned with stemming my bleeding.
Since then, every time service is disrupted because of a 'sick passenger', I am reminded of this.
Some time ago we touched on this topic. The whole thing about moving a sick passenger is a liability issue. The scenario I gave was: One morning I was on a southbound D train that was making the 125th St-59th/Columbus Circle express run when a passenger appeared to be having an epileptic attack. When the train arrived at 59th St. they discharged all passengers and the transit police responded and called for EMS. They of course waited with the passenger until EMS arrived. EMS arrived and after about 20 minutes the sick passenger was taken off the train. The point I was making was that in our society where people love to launch lawsuits I understand why the train crews and police would wait for EMS, rather than simply taking the passenger off the train. If they did the person could claim further injuries due to the non-medical personnel moving him/her from the train. And of course the TA would be named in the lawsuit.
Wayne
I've brought this up in the past myself. Why are we discharging an entire train rather than just closing off the car?
Wow. Did you take this up with MTA management? What did they say? Sounds like the train should have been held up and you should have been treated at the scene.
--Mark
In response to Mark's query: yes, I wrote letters to the TA, Mayor Dinkins, my councilman, you name it. Never got so much as a form letter back. Guess a guy's gotta get killed to be noticed.
That Conductor could have been in a lot of trouble for not reporting
the problem to the Control Center. What the Train Crew is suppose to
do is if your injured and The Perpatrater is still on the train the
train is suppose to wait outside the station and wait for police.
Howhever if you been robbed you have to go to the Station Agent.
What you should have done was get that Conductors Name and Pass
Number. (If Possible a car Number)
Hery, what is it about subways that they attract sick passengers? Everytime the train gets stuck, it's because of a sick passenger.
I notice most of the sick PASSENGERS are HOMELESS. Maybe that
explains it?
I think that not every train that gets stuck is really a "sick Passenger". In the summer when travelling to Wall Street, the A train from Hoyt Street into Manhattan got held up three times and I was caught in the trains behind it, in the tunnel. Maybe there were sick passengers as what they told us throughout the trian but I think they use that term as a code name as to why the train ahead is having passengers. To me the MTA probably uses sick passenger as problems as rowdy passengers, fights, or other disruptions and say sick passengers as to not alarm others on the same train or the passengers in the trains behind the troubled train. What do you all think?
You are not far from the truth there are times a Conductor might
say Sick Passenger when the train radio sez something diffrent.
Half my Conductors say anything but the real problem to aviod
panic but there are a lot of real sick passandgers.
If you think about how many people ride daily and how little common sesne many people have it should not be a surprise that many people go out onto the system when they should stay home. Some may be using the subway to get to the doc or hospital (There are times when you should take a cab) and sometimes things happen.
It may sound better to blame delays on a sick passenger than mechanical problems or hooliganisn and it may be good PR. Remember there are some things that you may not really want to know about. (Jumpers etc.)
I have never been on a train where 'sick passenger' was used as a code for something other than what it is. (By the way, I do have a radio set to Control Center frequencies so I DO know the real story too). If rowdy customers are involved, there is noting wrong with telling people that there is 'Police Activity' ahead. If it's mechanical problems or signal trouble, what is the problem with honesty. I think that if mis-imformation is given, it is done by some very cynical conductors who under-estimate the general public.
I have been on LIRR trains with sick customers, where the policy is a bit different. There, the LIRR puts the sick customer off the train (assuming that they are ambulatory) with an Assistant Conductor, to wait for medical assistance at a station. The TA has been experimenting with this way of handling 'Sick Customers' by installing 'comfort chairs' at strategically located stations as well as deploying RNs at key stations during peak hours.
[I have been on LIRR trains with sick customers, where the policy is a bit different. There, the LIRR puts the sick customer off the train (assuming that they are ambulatory) with an Assistant Conductor, to wait for medical assistance at a station. The TA has been experimenting with this way of handling 'Sick Customers' by installing 'comfort chairs' at strategically located stations as well as deploying RNs at key stations during peak hours.]
There's something about the TA's policy that doesn't seem right. Okay, if a person is incapacitated aboard a train, there's really no alternative other than to wait for EMS. But what about the situation where the sick passenger can get off the train, but then the train has to be taken out of service so the conductor can wait with the passenger for EMS? It would seem a lot more sensible for the clerk (alerted by the conductor) to close the booth and wait with the passenger, allowing the train to on its merry way. As far as I know, conductors don't have any medical training that the RR clerks don't, and the inconvenience of a closed booth is minor compared to that of an out-of-service train.
You make a very good point about using the Station Agent to wait with a ambulatory customer requring medical attention.
With the blessing of Command Center I walked a sick customer to the station agent. Alerted the Agent to the situation, recorded the Agents badge number and we were on our way in less than five min. This was on a weekend and it was my idea. Command Center said "if you can do it safely Conductor, go ahead".
My Train Operator told me that I was going to get in trouble some day. I asked him why, and he stated, The TA does not pay you to think they pay you to do what you are told to do. He said you never suggest any thing, thats there job, let them take the rap when somthing goes wrong.
I don't think what he said is true, but if it were, I could not work for the TA.
Well that is true in someway or another. But sometime you have to think it can be a diffrents between life or Death. I'm a train 0perator on the NO. 1 LINE AND SOMETIMES YOU have to take stuff into
your own hand within reason. You can get in trouble for anything in TA
JUST MAKE SURE YOUR RIGHT. Heres an Example of that. I had Hot Grids
and ofcouse the smoke was getting heavy and smokeing up the platform. This was a Astor PZ on the
No. 6 line. I tryed to call control. No Answer. So I cut the motors
in the car with the smoke. By the time I finaly got Control on the radio my train was discharged and i was ready to leave. I probaly
would have needed EMS if i didn't respond fast.
Great idea to cut out the motors. Unfortunately, #6 uses all westinghouse equipment. Cutting out the motors usually will not resolve hot grids on that type of equipment. Usually, the controller is hung up in dynamic braking so the simply moving the car will cause the grids to continue to burn. The only way to eliminate the problem is to drop the 'quick disconnects'. Also, shutting off the air to the groups will sometimes help. Sometimes, we only think we're doing the right thing...
Well that is true in someway or another. But sometime you have to think it can be a diffrents between life or Death. I'm a train 0perator on the NO. 1 LINE AND SOMETIMES YOU have to take stuff into
your own hand within reason. You can get in trouble for anything in TA
JUST MAKE SURE YOUR RIGHT. Heres an Example of that. I had Hot Grids
and ofcouse the smoke was getting heavy and smokeing up the platform. This was a Astor PZ on the
No. 6 line. I tryed to call control. No Answer. So I cut the motors
in the car with the smoke. By the time I finaly got Control on the radio my train was discharged and i was ready to leave. I probaly
would have needed EMS if i didn't respond fast.
Control Center will always ask the crew if the customer can be safely removed from the train. Nice gesture to get the railroad moving again eventhough that train has to go out of service due to no conductor aboard. But what happens if that customer collapses between the time he leaves the train and the time he gets to the nearest bench on the platform or booth? Now the conductor is jammed, worst case senario if that person should die, now NYCT has a lawsuit by the family claiming if that person got carried off the train by TRAINED & QUALIFIED medical personell, that person may be alive today. And do you think for one minute a jury is going to be sympathetic to the TA? NOT! Remember: cover your ass, don't be the hero. You are trained in train operation, not in medical matters. You are not qualified to make medical judgements just for the good of the service.
I agree with you 100%
It probably is true for the TA, and a lot of other places as well.
[To me the MTA probably uses sick passenger as problems as rowdy passengers, fights, or other disruptions and say sick passengers as to not alarm others on the same train or the passengers in the trains behind the troubled train.]
"Sick passenger" might indeed be used on the problem train itself, for the reasons you note. But passengers on following trains probably would hear "police activity."
That Conductor could have been in a lot of trouble for not reporting
the problem to the Control Center. What the Train Crew is suppose to
do is if your injured and The Perpatrater is still on the train the
train is suppose to wait outside the station and wait for police.
Howhever if you been robbed you have to go to the Station Agent.
What you should have done was get that Conductors Name and Pass
Number. (If Possible a car Number)
What are they Doing on the N and the R that is requiering so much diversions and delays and shuttle buses? Is it normal for a whole line or two to be effected like this??
Fred Wilson wonders what they're doing with the N and R. Since those two routes are about all that is still BMT in the southern part of Brooklyn, the TA is probably paving over the tracks to run a permanent bus service and finally kill off the main line of the BMT.
8-) Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Very heavy maintenance work, called Capital Construction. When many sections of track are worn out, the entire section is usually replaced. As you can imagine it's quite a job.
so there will be no visible difference once the work is done?
No, other than new track. Queensboro Plaza is getting new rails, (although thats not a capital project - sorry for the mistake, I was thinking of the Franklin Ave. Shuttle).
I believe they are replaceing the interlocking for the Queens Blvd Cutoff. They're also replaceing the 59st interlocking in Brooklyn.
-Hank
Gee, all this talk about redbirds......I'm licking my chops here. I think the best thing for me to do is actually bid for two of these subway cars at the next MTA auction. I'm sure a scrapper would allow a little guy to pick himself one or two cars (not that big of a loss for the scrapper).
Uh....just thought of a possible problem. What is the gauge of these trains? For some reason, I was under the impression that BMT and IND trains were wider than IRT cars. Arggggg- if this is true, then the only way I could move these cars will be on piggyback (via- freight railroads) versus hauling by engine on normal gauge track.
I'm getting a bit discouraged here......hmmmm
Cheers,
MIKE
The rail gauge is the same but the width of the floor at platform level is narrower on the IRT than the IND/BMT.
To get the cars off TA property you will most certainly have to truck them regardless of the rail guage.
-Dave
You mean the truck assembly would have to be separated from each subway car for transport via truck. Gee, what an awful mess trying to reassemble these subway cars. Hmmmmm. I seem to remember seeing two PATH subway cars being transported by freight truck some years ago in New Jersey. I imagine the cars were disassembled.
[You mean the truck assembly would have to be separated from each subway car for transport via truck. Gee, what an awful mess trying to reassemble these subway cars.]
I suppose it would depend on the vertical clearances between the subway yard and your destination. A subway car's got to be at least 10 feet high with the truck assemblies on, and a low-profile trailer (like those used to carry construction equipment) probably adds another two feet or so.
Of course, an undertaking like this would be mighty expensive ...
Not if you could somehow get someone to "donate" the transportation. granted, that's a longshot, but sometimes companies donate the trasnportation of stuff like this for a token fee, or at least a reduced rate. Granted, a Redbird isn't exactly historical, nor do they draw that kind of attention....
I'd like to bring one back to England. There is a subway car already here. Perhaps David Pirmann, our web site host, can tell me how it got here ? I have still to pay it a visit.
What subway car do you have in England?
I'm not sure about redbirds, but when I was up at the Trolley Museum in Kingston, one of the people there said that to bring the R-16 they had up there to the museum, it cost $600 to buy, and $5000 to move it. Personally, I've had dreams of putting a subway car in my backyard, maybe making a little rec room of it.
The transportation costs sound about right for that move. The semi trucks are large and there are only a few companies that do the work.
It is a nice thought for a rec room but your neighbors may not share your enthusiam.
I have heard some nice stories where streecar museums have reclaimed chicken coops, cottages and additions to houses and rebuilt them as streetcars again.
The East Troy Museum in Wiscosnin has an X Mpls/Duluth (owned and operated by the same company. Some equipment ran in both cities) car that had been used for storage for a long time. They have it rebuilt and running but would still like to find a set of trucks that ir should be running on. (I think it's on a set of TMER&L trucks. I do not know what it is supposed to be running on)
I would love to have 4 cars of R 26 NO. 7777,7778,7821,7822 AND
2 CARS of R 29 No. 8611,8612 and 2 CARS OF R 33 No 8899,9000 and
2 cars of R 36 9522,9521. Unfortinatly this is dream land.
The only thing that comes close is the R 26/28/29 train kit
sitting in my basement untouched because I don't have
patants to put it together.
Volunteer at a transit museum. The cars may not be yours personaly but they are ours colletivly and the museums let you get to know the equipment "Up close and personal". The efforts of volunteers at museums preserve the rich transportation history that we have.
It is rewarding. Many of the people that post here are involved.
ps. Find time to put the model together. If it's too picky find someone to help. (ask a kid to do it for you)
HAY Joe! Thats a good idea. The next time I go to the Museum i'll ask
about that. I love all of the old trains and i would like to meet alot
of the peaple who put this web site together. Well i started Volunteering to give picture to this web site. Thanks Joe
I'm working on volunteering. I'm in the process of trying to become a tour guide at the Transit Museum.
[Personally, I've had dreams of putting a subway car in my backyard, maybe making a little rec room of it.]
There was a story in the Times a couple of months ago concerning a man in Oregon who went one step further - he had bought an old Boeing 727 airliner and was having it brought to his property and converted into a residence. According to the article, as well as the man's own site (danged if I can remember the URL ...), the moving job was a truly Herculean effort. The plane had been flown into the nearest airport, which was about 12 miles from the man's property, and at last word was being prepared for the move. Its wings and tail assembly had to be removed. That wasn't so bad with the wings, which were designed to be removed and reinstalled without too much fuss, but the tail assembly had to be cut off and welded back on. Moving the fuselage would require special equipment and the relocation of overhead wires along the way. From what I recall, the total cost of the preparation and move was going to be well into six figures.
This morning's paper (I assume nationally) had a photograph of the plane being moved. Article says he still has to get it up a steep slope. Maybe he should reattach the wings and fly it up there.
Check out the Museum Roster
-- R6 1144 is at the Buckinghamshire Railway Center in England.
I understand it is an R4 and is at the Buckingham Railway museum (formally Quainton Road0 It is used as a cafe' and I believe it is truckless. I have no idea how it was shipped over, for what reason and by whom. I look to our host for helpon this one. Apart from several others and myself I doubt whether there are many subway enthusiasts who would put their hands in their pockets to arrange shipping.
PATH's PA-4 cars were delivered in almost "ready to run" condition, complete with trucks. Only the contact shoes and shoe beams were left off.
The cost for transporting them from Yonkers to Jersey City by truck was about $4000.00/car including special permits,police escorts,and tolls.
A Redbird body (without trucks) will make a legal load trailer, if fitted with a fifth wheel plate at one end and a dolly under the other end. This is how Seashore makes a lot of their moves. Such an effort involves lots of jacking and blocking, but can usually be done without hiring a crane (BIG BUCKS). The trucks can be moved on a regular flatbed. No matter how you look at it though, YOU are going to have to convince the MTA that you can get the job done and on time, before they will even consider selling you a car!
Exactly. Also,the figure I mentioned for the PATH cars dates back to 1986,and was for a long term contract involving numerous car moves. I imagine that a one time move would cost considerably more.
Some time ago,"Trains" magazine ran an article about the trials and tribulations of a fellow who bought a scrap caboose to place on his property. I don't recall the dollar figures,but what started out as a simple purchase turned out to be a VERY expensive proposition. This is not an exercise for the faint of heart.
As Erik suggests,volunteering at a museum would be great alternative.
There are several within a day's drive of NYC,and all have NYCTA cars in their collections.Branford's R-17 wears the redbird color scheme;it looks and runs great.Erik's group has their R-16,and Seashore has an extensive rapid transit collection. All are actively seeking volunteers to restore,maintain,and operate cars. Something for Mike to think about.
Fritz -- I have a similar story to tell. A friend of mine who works for transit in the PR department had told me of an incident some years ago where they were auctioning off subway cars.
A woman who lived out mid-west somewhere wanted a subway car to turn it into a diner. She had bid on an R-27 series car and won. The price for the car was reseasonable (don't recall the exact figure) but when it came time to claim the car, the woman never showed up.
What happanned to her you may ask -- simply, it never occurred to her that she would have to pay for the whooping transportation costs to move the subway car flatbeded to it's final destination! And that ain't cheap!
BTW, believe it or not, but my friend has said that this scenario happens quite frequently at these subway car auctions.
So, let the buyer beware as the old saying goes.
Doug
Couldn't they be hauled by locomotive from either the 39th or Linden yards to the LIRR, and then over the Hell Gate Bridge to wherever?
There are several problems with a rail haul.
One is cost freight and insurance.
Another is replacing the couplers with knuckle couplers, making sure they are at the correct height, modifying the brake system to work on train air (SMEE can be so modified).
Once you have got the thing coupled up, you usually have to send an escort, ready to deal with any eventuality (like a broken drawbar) and prepared to spend days in a remote yard while awaiting a connection.
And the deal worked out with the freight agent comes apart when the engineer or conductor of a connecting line refuses to accept the car!
There is a section of the MTA website that tells you of surplus materials(including subway cars) that the MTA is selling.There will be an update on Monday 2/15 so watch for it.
The address is www.mta.nyc.ny.us
Mike,
First of all, where are you located? I don't think I would "lick my chops" for a Redbird. The Redbirds aren't red, they are more like a tuscan color red and not fire engine red. They have black roofs. At one time on the Flushing Line there were R33's and R36's that where white as a ghost. They were called the White Train to discourage graffiti artists. It did not work. Now they are coined redbirds and they don't fly to Florida for the Winter. These are are MK rebuilts and are 9 feet wide and 51 feet wide over coupler heads. They run on standard gauge track (4 feet, 8-1/2 inches) as the Track Phantom must know. You need 600-650 VDC to operate these cars off a third rail and a breaker the size of about 2000 amps. I believe they weight around 60,000 lbs empty at AW0.
They have modular air conditioning using the stanchion bars to deliver cold air to the ceiling.
I think you should go for it!!!!
A few things....first, to Mike Gallant....you have some piece of
track that is connected to the national rail network on which you
want to put a "redbird", or is all this a lot of tom-foolery? I
think it would be a hassle to transport a subway car on the high
rail...all sorts of railroad regs to deal with, plus convincing
the TA to do the transfer. I think the last cars to get delivered
to the NYCTS that way were the R32s.
To Track Phantom and other redbird fans: You can run the cars
on as low as 400 V. Below that the PTR would probably drop out.
To adequately run a single car, budget for about 700 Amps. For
Married Pair, increase your estimate accordingly. Each cars weighs
in at about 38 tons, empty. The R33 singles might be a little
lighter because they have no AC.
About the HVAC on the redbirds: cold air is NOT delivered through
the stanchion pipes. The pipes are used, however, to conceal and
protect smaller freon piping. The compressor/condenser unit is
under the car. The evaporator/blower is the bump in the ceiling.
Both lines in the stanchion are on the low side of the system.
One has the cold liquid freon from the low side of the condenser
coil, the other has the cold gas going to the suction side of the
compressor. That's why the stanchion poles feel cold.
Can R-44/46 'B' units be moved independantly of 'A' units (i.e., in yards, etc.)under their own power? If so, how are they controlled?
Michael B.
B cars (R-44 or R-46 could never be moved independent of an 'A' car. The 'B' car has no Air Compressor or Converter/Battery so must rely on the 'A' car for 'life support'and, therefore, could not be moved independently of an 'A' car. Linking of A-B units prior to overhaul made the question moot, however. Prior to overhaul. A-B units were constantly moved from either end. On the R-44, operating from the #1 end of the 'B' car was a chore accomplished with 2 motorman with radios. The one in the 'B' car would flag the one at the controls in the 'A' car. On the R-46, this was made easier by the incorporation of a push-button controller called the Hostler. The motorman would hold the "Dead-Man's button" with one finger while applying one or two points of power or 1 of 3 rates of braking with another finger. Of course, this took a fair amount of practice, especially when cutting and adding at the 'B' end of the unit. The 'A' car, which (before linking)could move independently of the B car, had a Hostler on both ends of the car. Except in emergencies, trains were never operated with passengers aboard via the Hostler. The R-44 was never equipped with a hostler, however.
What was that electronic gadget on the R44 that was mounted where the sign controller now sits?
-Hank
I don't recall any such gadget on the R-44 but on the R-46, that device with the Red, Yellow and Blue buttons was the Hostler.
Well, before they were overhauled, the SIR R44s had a device, with quite a few buttons, that sounds just like what you're talking about. A large, red, vertical button labeled 'STOP' is the only thing I can remember clearly about it.
-Hank
The SIRR were a cross between the R-44 and R-46. It is possible that they did have a hostler but the NYCTA R-44s didn't. (Off the topic - the SIRR R-44s are referred to as R-43 on the NYCT Computer system)
are there any other unofficial R types out there?(Where the car is on R-type and called by another sucha s the SIR R43)
Two come to mind very quickly. The R-1, R-4, R-6 and R-7s were lumped into the generic R-9 catagory. The other one is the R-11. After overhaul they were re-classified as R-34s but they always retained the R-11 label.
Don't the R110A/B have other designations too?
I heard somewhere, that the 110's are actually R-131's, and that 110 was the number of the original proposal or design or something, that came to identify the actual cars themselves.
Earlier today, I was thinking that an interesting Nostalgia Train ride might be the original IRT route, starting at 145th st on the west side, and then letting us off at City Hall to look around, then picking us up and returning us to where we began. Alas, I think that would be impossible. I checked a track map, and it looks like there is no easy way to do that. Any opinions?
[Earlier today, I was thinking that an interesting Nostalgia Train ride might be the original IRT route, starting at 145th st on
the west side, and then letting us off at City Hall to look around, then picking us up and returning us to where we began. Alas, I think that would be impossible. I checked a track map, and it looks like there is no easy way to do that. Any opinions?]
It indeed would be impossible due to the reconfiguration of the 42nd Street routing. Remember that what is now the 42nd Street Shuttle follows the original IRT route. Of the three tracks on the Shuttle, one connects to the 7th Avenue IRT and two connect to the Lexington IRT - in other words, there is no track that connects the two IRT lines.
Hmm, *think* *think* *think*, isn't the middle track at 42nd street
still connected to the 7th avenue line? Isn't there a bumper or
something that could be removed and the bridge opened up to allow
a train (sigh, one day maybe a Lo-V again) through?
There is a removeable bridge along the connection between the northernmost Shuttle track (#4) and the West Side IRT. That's probably what you're thinking of. Unfortunately, Track 4 doesn't connect to the other two, and those tracks in turn connect only to the Lexington IRT. So a through routing from Lexington to West Side is impossible.
Why the heck isn't there a connection? What would happen if they ever needed to reroute trains in an emergency? In fact, according to the pages here, "Track 4 connects to the northbound main line local track underneath a metal walkway that is removed only during midnight hours if needed for train swaps." I assume they mean swapping shuttle trains, but from a logistics point of view, why keep connections to two lines when they could put in a switch and get them all from one? If it is for redudancy, the switch would still make sense.
Personally, just to do what I suggest, such a tour, I'd go down there and put in a switch myself, assuming I knew how.
But can anyone think of a good IRT Nostalgia Train trip? I haven't been a member of the museum for that long, but I was told they always use that D-type Triplex, which wouldn't work for an IRT trip, and that they've never done an IRT trip. For that matter, anyone know if they have another Nostalgia Train trip planned for sometime, I assume, after April?
This is uncertain. The Nostalgia Special may not take place. I spoke to the Curator of the Museum who was dissatisfied with the way the specials were being operated (he didn't really elaborate on his dissatisfaction). He proposed a train of R1/9s, but not even this is definite. As for the D - Types, I've been told that they need body work. So unless this work is done, the D - Types won't be in action for much of this year. The 2 units in Coney Island (6019ABC, 6112ABC) need it the most because the salt is eating away at their sides. The unit (6095ABC) at the Museum isn't sufficient to operate a Nostalgia Special. The only other possibility to operate a special would be to use the Railway Preservation Corporation's Lo-Vs, which runs an IRT special once a year. I assume there will be another on in September. Lo-Vs were used for the Nostalgia Special in July 1996 to Rockaway Pk. A wooden plank was put down by the TA employees to cover the gap between the car and the IND platform so people could safely walk out.
There are numerous other Museum Cars, but they haven't received proper servicing.
-Constantine
No Nostalgia Trains? That is one of the most disappointing things I can think of. I was on only one of them, the one in October, and I was looking roeard to another. It is the most tangible of the things the Transit Museum does outside the Museum itself. If better advertising was availible, then it would definitely, in addition to the crowd it currently attracts, bring in a lot of young children and their parents. Which would make it a real moneymaker, which someone at the MTA should appreciate.
There always was a connection between the tracks of the shuttle. It wan't until the last few years when they removed it, and one of the tracks with it. I'm not sure why though.
Tracks 1.2 and 3 have been connected since the line became a shuttle in 1918. Track 2 was accesible from the Grand Central end until 1975 when the connection was broken,but tracks 1 and 3 are still connected by I believe a hand thrown switch. Track 4 has always been separate from the three other tracks and joins the Bway-7 Av Line at Times Sq. As to why this might be I would venture the following: there was a plan put about during the Dual Contracts to us only the two south tracks (1 and 2) for the shuttle and the two north tracks (3 and 4) for the westward extension of the Flushing Line to Times Square. The trackways and a single island platform were actually constructed as an eastward extension of tracks 1 and 2 although for many years the trackways were boarded over with wooden planking. You actually walk through this area today when you transfer from the shuttle to the Lexington. Remember that when the shuttle first began operation the connection was via the upper level passageway which was then inside the fare control zone but is now outside of it but still in use. The plan to have the Flushing Line use tracks 3 and 4 died as soon as someone realized that nothing short of a cog railway or a mountain goat could make the climb from the Flushing platforms up to the shuttle tracks. If the plan had been put into effect it would have been necessary to have track connections between 1 and 2, the connection from 2 to 3 would have only been used for service moves and the frugal IRT would not build extra switches.
Regards,Redbird
Re: The Original IRT route, posted by David Shanske
[quote]
There always was a connection between the tracks of the shuttle. It wan't until the last few years when they removed it, and
one of the tracks with it. I'm not sure why though.
[unquote]
Shuttle tracks one and three connect by a hand-throw switch just west of Grand Central. Track one continues east of Times Square, curves right 90 degrees and meets up with the Lexington Ave. local track from a point in between the local and express tracks, between 33rd Street and 42nd Street.
Track 4 of the shuttle is connected west of Times Square to the uptown local (#1 train route) track.
Track two no longer exists, although there is some rail still left in place within the trackway. It was once the downtown express track before the Dual Contracts expansion.
All cars operating on the shuttle are based at the Pelham maintenance shop in the Bronx.
Cheers,
Peter Dougherty
Publisher
Tracks of the New York City Subway book
Umm...Mr. Dougherty. I didn't say that. Eric B did. I did receive my information about it from your very informative book though, after I wondered if such a trip was possible, and then double-checked it here at nycsubway.org.
While the connection at Times Square to the uptown IRT Westside exists a removable bridge covers the connection. To use the track the bridge is removed and it is done midnight hours when they change out the cars on the shuttle.(The bridge gives access to Track 4. If you walk this bridge you actually see the uptown 1/2/3 to your left as you walk towards track 4.
Therefore-under normal situations it would take three trains to do the Day One Route. Start with the 6 at brooklyn Bridge, ride around the loop(if permitted), get off at Grand Central, take the SHuttle to Times Square and then change to the uptown 1.
Advertisement: Folks-if you dont have Peter's excellent book run to your Post Office today for only $30-international money order(orange in color)he will send you your own copy of this terrific book. If you have ever wondered about some layouts, this book will answer all your questions--even the extra tracks at Fourh Avenue F Brooklyn and why you only have two tracks at Fort Hamilton Pkwy on the F among others.
(I am not getting paid for this commercial)
If you stand at the end of the platform by that bridge, the uptown 1 passes literally a few feet away from you. You can plainly see where the original ROW went.
I picked up my copy of Peter's track book at the Transit Museum last October, BTW.
In the Times Square-Grand Central Shuttle area, track 2 has no connection to the other tracks. No cars can get in or out. Track 1 only has access to the Lexington Avenue Downtown local track and track 3 and 4 only access to the 7th Avenue Uptown local. With this in mind, an excursion trip on the original IRT route cannot be accomplished. This information is taken from the signal control line drawings.
[In the Times Square-Grand Central Shuttle area, track 2 has no connection to the other tracks. No cars can get in or out.
Track 1 only has access to the Lexington Avenue Downtown local track and track 3 and 4 only access to the 7th Avenue Uptown local. With this in mind, an excursion trip on the original IRT route cannot be accomplished. This information is taken from the signal control line drawings.]
Track 2 is the missing Shuttle track. Tracks 1 and 3 connect to the Lexington line and Track 4 connects to the Seventh Avenue line. What matters is that a through routing is not possible.
One way to do a worthwhile fan trip would be to use regular service from 145th to Times Sq. and the shuttle to Grand Central. Then have the Lo-Vs on a charter from GCT to Brooklyn (covering the Contract 2 extension), back to E 180th St. (covering part of the Bronx Extension), and then to City Hall (with arrangements for a regular service train to pick up passengers there and return you to the real transit world :)
Can anyone tell me how they got their name, I know they are painted red, but how come everyone calls them "redbirds" wrer they called redbirds before the advent of "Subtalk". When did they recieve the red paint job - was it to deter the graffiti artists ?
They are painted a tuscan red and not a a fire engine red. The roofs are black. They were repainted this color in the mid to late 1980's as part of a rebuilt program. Prior to this, these cars had plenty of graffiti. The paint is graffiti resistant and had to be done anyway. The original paint was blasted off with vinyl pellets.
The rail fans call them red birds because of their colors. Maybe it is believed they will fly when you see a 11 car train of these cars on an elevated structure!!!
As a footnote, certain cars on the IRT Division were delivered as true fire engine red in the late 1950's and 1960's. Those are real redbirds.
Simon: The first cars to be called Redbirds were the R-29's.When the first cars were delivered on March 28,1962 they arrived by car barge and sailed up the East River welcomed by fireboats. They were painted a brilliant Tartar Red with a yellow trim on the grabirons.This was in sharp contrast to previous orders which had been painted olive drab. The Red scheme was repeated for the next two orders for those cars assigned to the IRT Mainlines #1-6 and 9, R-33 and R-36. The R-33 and R-36 assigned to the #7 Flushing Line had picture windows and a blue and white paint scheme and were called Bluebirds. When the R-29's,33's,36's as well as the R-26's and R-28's were rebuilt under the General Overhaul Program they were painted in a somewhat darker red paint scheme with a silver roof and black tops at the car ends. After rebuilding they were referred to as "Silver Foxes" but the name never caught on and the Redbird name quickly came back into use.
Regards,Redbird
The story goes that the red shade used on the Redbirds was used in Philadelphia on the Broad St. line. Supposedly, someone remembered that the R-29s, R-33s, and mainline R-36s were originally painted red, but couldn't recall the exact shade.
Early today i was in the Bronx River Parkway and it was a heavy traffic because there was six cars accident. I was looking at Unionport Yard and i saw a work car R33 #8885 sitting on the track Without #8884. I wonder what happened to R33 #8884? Look like R33 #8884 scrapped or repair?
Check out the Scrap/Wreck List
#8884 was lost July 15, 1997 in a split-switch accident on the #2 line near President Street station. He was the last car in the train when the switch closed while he passed over it, causing his rear truck to go onto the other track. He hit the wall and his frame got bent so they scrapped him right then and there. His mate #8885 is now a "Gel Applicator Car" (sounds like a beautician!)
Wayne
Wayne: I always find it useful to print your responses as there a goldmine of info on the current car fleet.
Regards,Redbird
Can anyone tell me why, on CTA maps, is there no special notation for the local stations normally served by Brown Line trains south of Belmont? There is no service to these stations on Sundays, yet the maps depict them as though there is constant service.
I suppose they are trying to keep the graphic clean. Of course, having worked there, they assume the riders already know the answer.
The line information tells what days they run and the stations that are ravenswood only are not open on sunday, and the red line dosent stop there. Same thing with the Skokie swift, does not run Sat or Sunday except for Taste of Chicago weekends.
I believe your response. Who looks at the maps in the cars anyway? Tourists. And are any tourists going to try and get off there on a week-end? No.
The same question has to be asked, why is the Douglas Branch of the Blue line the same color as the rest of the line? It only runs on Weekdays, no weekend or overnight service. The rest of the line runs 24-7.
They think that, the L station will still be there when it isn't in service, so put it on the map the same color as the rest of the line! If you want to know when it is open you have three options, 1 read the rest of the information on the map, call the RTA 836-700, or 3 call the CTA toll-free question or comment # 188-Your-CTA.
I think it makes it easier to read personally. Just read the description of the color coded line you are going to ride and if it says the line runs 24-7 your fine. If it says it doesn't then locate the stations that are closed on the map. It usually lists an alternative for when the train isn't running. Like the #97 bus for the Skokie Swift on week-ends.
BJ
But the entire Blue Line is one color because it is one line: both Cermak and Forest Park trains run through the Dearborn Street subway and then the entire length of the O'Hare branch. If the Forest Park and Cermak branches were in two different colors, then the O'Hare branch would have to be marked in both colors. And it seems to me that we've used up all the easily-distinguished colors as it is.
Wouldn't it be easier to adopt the suggestion of the original message: mark EVERY station that has no service for some period (nights or weekends) with the appropriate symbol on the map. Therefore, Dempster on the Yellow and all the Cermak Branch stations on the Blue would be marked with the existing "no nights/weekends" symbol, the Orange, Purple, and Green stations would be marked with a "no nights" symbol, and the Brown Line stops would use the existing "no nights or Sundays" marking.
My favorite signal is the Union Switch & Signal R2 signals seen at locations on the Flushing Line and Willets Point Blvd station (Shea Stadium). These signals have long hoods and a round top.
What is your favorite signal, train stop and switch machine?
My favorite signal is D6 1615. Wanna guess why?
[this may be a duplicate posting; I have had some trouble when I tried to send it. If you've seen it before, my apologies]
Posted by Steve on Fri Feb 5 18:55:23 1999,
[quote]
My favorite signal is D6 1615. Wanna guess why?
[unquote]
Yikes! Now *that's* trivia the way I like it. I can't even hazard any real guess. Let's see...it's on a tight left-hand curve (without a repeater, by the looks of it), heading into Jamaica Yard and controlled by the yard tower. Is it not in synch with indications from Continental Tower, maybe? Something that can trip a train unexpectedly?
Or do you know someone who got the old signal head off of D5-1615 when they modernized them, maybe?
I gotta know .
Cheers,
Peter Dougherty
Publisher
Tracks of the New York City Subway book
Congrats Peter. You almost hit it on the head. Whenever I have a B/O train that has to be moved off the main line via other than head car operation, that's the point that I know we are in the clear. Thankfully, it doesn't happen all that often any more...
Posted by Steve on Sun Feb 7 00:01:57 1999
[quote]
Congrats Peter. You almost hit it on the head. Whenever I have a B/O train that has to be moved off the main line via other
than head car operation, that's the point that I know we are in the clear. Thankfully, it doesn't happen all that often any more...
[unquote]
Thanks for the reply. When I first saw your post with the D6 track number, I was guessing that this signal was sitting outside your office, but a closer look at the GSA books had me scratching my head.
By what you said in your reply, I assume you mean that when the lead car of a B/O train hits D6-1615 then the train's clear of the main line? Am I correct in that assertion?
Cheers,
Peter Dougherty
Publisher
Tracks of the New York City Subway book
Someone else thought it was a signal right outside my office too. Actually, it also means that not only are we clear of the mainline but we are also clear of the R/G relay tracks.
My favorite signals are green ones.
Ditto here, especially green over green interlocking aspects. One which especially stands out is the one just before the scissor switches approaching 75th Ave. Jamaica-bound on the Queens line. The ultimate delight is seeing a green over green aspect and knowing that the express train I'm on will not be stopping at 75th Ave. I remember once, on an F train back when the F still ran express beyond Continental Ave., I was peeking through the full width R-46 cab and announced to my traveling companions, "Hey, guys, we're not stopping at 75th," when the green over green came into view. We got off at Union Turnpike and backtracked to my sister's apartment; she was living in Forest Hills at the time.
I prefer a yellow over illuminated "S" over a green. This is two shot grade time time and it is neat to watch it clear to green over green with the advance signal changing from red to yellow over illuminated "S".
My favorite signals are the ones that read 'clear'. My least favorite are the ones that read 'stop'. As for types, the ones that Amtrak uses with the three lamps in a triangle are my least favorite, and I don't know what my favorite is.
Track switches? By far the coolest are the moveable frog types Metro-North is installing in a lot of places. There's even a few on the New haven line now!!! They look way cool, and you don't even feel them.
If we're talking about a specific signal rather than a type, I would offer the pre-DeKalb rebuilding home signal on the track coming up from Lawrence Streeet and the Montague St. Tunnel. The lower signal would show green for Brighton, yellow for 4th Avenue, and blue for DeKalb bypass to 4th Avenue express. It was the only blue designation anywhere in the system, I've been told.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Position lights, LOVE position lights! Approach Limited was a particular favorite.
o
o
o
o
o
o
FLASHING
Proceed aprroaching next signal at Limited Speed (45MPH).
Train must reduce to Limited Speed as soon as the engine passes the Approach Limited signal.
Depending on the location, some of them have colors in the various aspects. Ie; yellow for diagonal (approach), green for clear (vertical) and red for stop (horizontal)
Tried a macro of the position light, but it didn't work!
I like 14L Home Signal in Union Port Yard witch leads on to the
main line on the Southbound side
I like the IRT Kiosks of 1904. Neat-o!!!
The Spanish Mission house at the Morris Park IRT station is VERY nice.
BTW they have replaced some of those kiosks - Astor Place, Borough Hall (for the elevators only) etc. I wonder if they did the same at Nevins Street, as I remember seeing one there as a young child.
Wayne
I like the Bowling Green Entrance
The station house at 72nd St. and Broadway is charming. Too bad there is no free transfer between uptown and downtown trains. Then , when you step outside, you can stand on the metal grating and look straight down at one of the express tracks.
I also liked the IND entrances along 8th Ave. when they used to say, "8th Ave. - Independent Subway System".
There any R12,14,15,17,21,22 surving subway cars now?
See the Museum Car Roster
As an aside, if you are new to the site you should explore it! SubTalk isn't all there is. Click the "www.nycsubway.org" logo at the top of any page to be brought to the main index.
-Dave
Does R-40 slants run on the E, F, G and R lines?
R40 Slants does run on E,F,Q,B,and L. I don't know R40 Slants run on R,N,M,J,A,and D
There are no slant 40's on the E or F or even the R. They are exclusively R-46s and R-32s
D is exclusively R-68s
M & J are 40Ms and 42s
A is either 32/38 or 44s
Q is generally slants and the B is usually 68As
The Slant R40s are divided into two camps:
One is the Eastern Division camp - #4398-4449 (48 units) (#4420-4421-4427-4428 are gone). These run exclusively on the "L".
The other is the Coney Island camp #4150 to #4397. They run on the
"Q", "N" and occasionally as a put-in on the "B".
As Steve said, no other lines run Slant R40 but these four.
Wayne |MrSlantR40\
See the Subway FAQ for a somewhat recent list of car assignments. It's a little out of date but I'll try to bring it up to snuff this week.
Forgive my comment, but Joseph sounds like a kid. Dave's suggestion is the best - www.nycsubway.org is more than Subtalk. Start on the main page and much information will be yours.
I've been in this business for almost 40 years, and I asked a lot of silly questions at first. That's how we all learned the vast information at our fingertips.
My comments exactly Joseph comments are way out of wack. Yesterday
he named about every car series saying this blinks and that don't
blink. I wish there was a way to block that guy.
Does R-42s run on the C line.
No!
See the Subway FAQ for a somewhat recent list of car assignments, which I will bring up to date this week.
Living in New York and having been fortunate enough to vist London I have been struck by the similarities of the two systems. To begin with both New York and London's Rapid Transit Systems are definitely in the "Major Leagues" or for soccer fans"the World Cup Catergory."
This is due both to the sheer size of the systems (about 250+miles)in both cases and the number of rolling stock.(NY-5600+/- and London 4500+/-)(I know my figures are not exact).
Both systems can be readily divided into two groups, the NY one into the 9 foot wide lines(IRT) and the ten foot wide lines(BMT/IND).The London system has the Tube Lines and the Surface Lines.
Also both cities have a smaller rapid transit system that it not(or was not) part of the main system. New York has the PATH System and London has the Waterloo & City Line which until recently was operated by British Rail, Southern Region but is now run by London Transport.Perhaps some comments on how thses two compare to other systems and each other?
Regards,Redbird
Redbird do you know if london has One Person Train Operation.
Because a thouth that they had 2 person operation but my friends
tell me diffrent
Only the Northern Line remains under two-person operation (driver and guard = motorman and conductor). This too will end soon as new rolling stock is delievered for the Northern Line.
Funny that the PATH and the W&C line should be compared. Exchange Place is very strongly similar to a typical tube station in London. Occasionally I'll hear a sound while in the WTC-bound tunnel that reminds me of the Underground (The Underground's sounds are pretty unique-- it doesn't sound quite like the NY subway or any other system I've been on...) Maybe some day I will doctor up a photo of Exchange Place and put a tube train in it, or a picture of, say, Covent Garden with a Path PA-series train. :-)
The Waterloo and City Line has now been transferred to London Transport. It is hard to say what they will do with it, whether long-term extensions might be planned, or whether it will continue to be run as it is.
Having done the reverse of Redbird (live in England but luckily enough, have travelled on NYCTA Subways) the main difference is of course the two different stock profiles in use here in London.
District, Hammersmith & City, Circle, East London & Metropolitan
all use full height "surface " stock
whilst Northern, Piccadilly,Bakerloo,Jubilee, Victoria, Central & Waterloo & City use smaller "TUBE" stock.
This is a noticeable size difference, more so than IRT,BMT-IND differences on th NYC system.
If any readers visit London several stations have SURFACE and TUBE stock operating on the same running lines so comparison and photograph is easy..(e.g. Ealing Common station - served by SURFACE
stock on the District Line as well as Piccadilly Line TUBE stock.
Also the use of a 430 volt LIVE rail (possitive) and 210 volt 4th rail
(inbetween tracks at 210 volts) is different from NYC 3rd rail only operation.
Other than that our two great cities have the best mass transit railways in the World, that we can all agree on !!!!!!
Regards
Rob
London UK
:^)
Rob, I always thought that the forth (inner) rail was the return and originally installed under an Act of Parliament to prevent earth leakage of current by keeping the return away from the tunnel structure and nearby buildings. I did not think it was there to carry 210 volts. I thought most cars have rotary converters for ancilliary power.
Very true Simon, the Fourth rail situated inbetween the running rails (negative rail) returns voltage a 210 volts dc, my last post did not make this clear...well spotted !! :^)
Regards
Rob :^!
The point being made is that neither the third or fourth rail is at ground potential. The operating voltahe is the difference between them. (about 650 V)
As a Train Operator (I much prefer our former title of 'Motorman'!), on the District Line of LU can I remind you that we also operate trains onto track owned by 'Railtrack' which is electrified at their usual voltage of 750v DC. On the sections in question:(DISTRICT LINE- Turnham Green to Richmond, Putney Bridge to Wimbledon. BAKERLOO LINE- Queens Park to Harrow & Wealdstone) LU trains 'C-stock', 'D-stock', '1972-stock' are fitted with higher rated fuses than is standard. Centre 4th rails are provided solely for use by LUL trains, these then being bonded to the running-rails for return.
Colin M. Smith.
Simon: What is the advantage of the four rail system over the three rail system that we use in New York?. Thanks.
Redbird
I seem to recall reading somewhere that when the City and South London ( nowerdays the City Branch of the Northern Line )was first built it was stipulated that current leakage to earth had to fall within certain limits and this could only be achieved by fitting a forth rail for the return current. This also had the advantage of keeping signalling circiuts clean. I believe the IRT had problems in this respect (page 136 The New York Subway Its Contruction and Equipment)
With cast iron tunnel linings, there were always fears that earth leakage would be a problem. Even with 4 rails, I recall that the Bakerloo Line had problems right from the start and ran for a time with the centre rail positive and the outside rail for return. I guess that four rails are note remotely necessary for the surface lines, but that standardisation is important. Underground systems in Liverpool, Glasgow (I think), and the Waterloo and City Line and Great Northern Electrics in London (more similar to Path than Waterloo and City Line?) are all perfectly happy with only three rails.
The Waterloo & City Line was transferred to LUL ownership from 1st April 1996(how appropriate!). During it's major re-build and re-equiping with LUL type '1992-stock' trains, it was found easier to install a 4th centre negative rail, LUL standard, than to convert the in-build '1992-stock' trains!
Rob,
You say that the 4th rail is at -210 volts. Does this mean that it is dangerous to touch? I have never been able to find out and do not wish to do so the hard way!
Max Roberts
One other thing: New York's subway trains operate right-handed, while London's Underground trains (and probably British Rail, for that matter) operate left-handed.
Speaking of which, which way do trains run through the Chunnel?
To the London Subtalkers: Am I correct in assuming that at one time the Central Line ran left-handed at White City. If this is true why and does it still do this? Many thanks,
Larry,Redbird
Yes, White City definitely is still reversed. The tracks are in the open and one just rises over the other and then back again after the station. No idea why on this one. There is at least one other place but cannot for the life of me think where. It might be on the Victoria Line. There are a few places on the network where the tracks are stacked (e.g. Borough, and Chancery Lane).
As I understand it the original Central line terminus was at Shepherds Bush. Access ran from Shepherds Bush to the yard at Wood Lane on the surface. When the line was extended and the station was built at Wood Lane ( now moved 100yds west and called White City) the works required crossing the tunnels. A west bound journey now by passes the old Wood Lane station. An east bound passes through it. The old station building is visable at Ground level and is opposite the BBC television centre. The line re-croses a bit further up the track. There is still a small yard at Wood Lane. The section of the Northern line after Moorgate (southbound) also runs on the right. I have no idea why. I seek enlightenment.
Right, after a bit of research I can answer the question. All of my prevous statement is true with the addition that Wood Lane Station was built on a loop which ran anticlockwise and as such Wood Lane was a single platfrom. With left hand running the line needed to cross and did this just after Shepherds Bush. When the line was extended to White City and beyind it was extended on each side of the loop and hence the arrangement we have today.
Simon: Thank you very much for the info.As I said in a previous post the NY and LT systems have much in common even in their peculiarites. There you have one station out of what?250+ and one station only has right-hand running. We have a station here on the Canarsie Line(L) called Wilson Av. The southbound track is on the upper level in the open and the Manhattan bound track is in subway underneath it.
Best Wishes,Redbird
My pleaseure. On my last subway tour I had a detailed tour of the Canarsie Line accompanied by one of the main contributors to these pages. Looking forward to the next one in March.
I have managed to find more right-hand running. This is on the Victoria line at Warren Street, Euston and Kings Cross. The reasons for this are partly space at Kings Cross, but mainly so that cross-platform interchange could be made with same direction (i.e. Northbound/Southbound) with the Northern Line at Euston - the City branch (via Bank) I think.
Max:I did ride the Victoria Line and I remember that transfer point but I never realized it was right handed. One of the lines I do recall with great interest was the Highbury & Islington Branch of the Northern Line. When I was in London back in 1969 is was still run by LT , I believe that its now run by one of the regional railroads. There were tube size trains running in railway size tunnels. We have a similar stiuation on the IRT Dyre Avenue Tunnel in the Bronx. This was built for mainline clearances of the New York, Westchester & Boston Railroad which also used overhead catenary.There is a tunnel portion at the Pelham Parkway Station that is downright cavernous.
Best Wishes,Larry,Redbird
Larry: Given that subway cars are big enough, that must be a big tunnel. The Northern City Line has quite a history for a line so short, but one of the reasons why the Moorgate tube disaster was so bad was because tube-sized trains ran in large tunnels. When the train hit the wall, the cars had much more freedom of movement in absorbing the impact: small trains in large tunnels are not a good idea.
Transferring the Northern City Line to British Rail was never very successful. In early days, there were reliability problems, and Moorgate is only a useful destination for work, not leisure, so now the line has a short working day, Monadays to Fridays. There is something planned in London called 'Thameslink 2000'. If this daes dake place (they had better get a move on) then I predict that the Northern City line will go peak hours only.
One thing that I have noticed about the New York Subway is that there does not seem to have been much line swapping with main line railways. The lines to Upminster, Epping, High Barnet, Harrow and Wealdstone, West Ruislip and Wimbledon are all main line or commuter railways that have been taken over or have an Underground service. Apart from Dyre Avenue and the Rockaways, are there others in NY?
Max Roberts
There is additional information on the New York, Westchester & Boston on this site at http://www.nycsubway.org/nywb/ - also some photographs linked from that page.
As to your question on line-swapping, the SIRT could be considered in that light. There have also been a number of station abandonments by mainline railroads because of competition from "mass transit" in New York City, even before the era of the subways - see Brennan's Disused and Abandoned Subway Stations page (linked from this site) for information on some underground stations on the former New York Central line that were abandoned over 100 years ago.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Max: I never heard about the Moorgate crash and would be grateful for more information. There has never been much interlinning between the subways and the mainline railroads on an operational basis. Both the Dyre Av and Rockaway Line were taken over by the subway several years after they had been abandoned by the railroad. The BMT(in those days the BRT) did have interline service with the Long Island Railroad from the latter part of the 19th century up till about 1918. There was a joint service from the BRT Broadway-Brooklyn El to the LIRR Rockaway Line via the Chestnut Street Incline. There also was joint service from the the Sands Street Station to the LIRR at Atlantic Av via the BRT 5 Avenue El but this only lasted from 1899-1904.The NY,Westchester and Boston was built BIG. It was a four track mainline with overhead catenary and the underground portion in the Bronx is not so much a subway as a railway tunnel with very high ceiling and a wide right of way. I daresay a Standard might be a liitle intimidated
by the size not to mention the much smaller IRT cars.Been nice talking to you.
Beat Wishes,Larry,Redbird
I remember the Moorgate crash very well as I was in London that day. Apparently the driver (I believe his name was Newson), drove with power on into the station at around 30 mph, and made no attempt to brake. The train hit the tunnel end. The front carriage which on 38 stock is about 55ft was compressed by the impact to ten foot or so. Clearence took two weeks. There was no explanation as to why the driver did not stop and I believe this remains a mystery no reason was given at the enquiry and the brakes wre operating normally. I am working from memory and time may have blurred som of the facts. I will go away and do some researh unless someone else can help.
For those interested in reading more about this terrible occurance, may i recomend "Moorgate: Anatomy of a Railway Diaster" written by Sally Holloway.
The line now operated by mainline sized stock of the WAGN (West Anglia Great Northern) TOC (Train Operating Company) is protected by several speed sensing trainstops and improved buffer stops are fitted in what is platform 9 i believe.
Regards
Rob :^)
London UK
Rob, since my last posting I have done a bit of research on the Moorgate crash. The train went through the platform with passengers awaiting to board, throught the 20yd sandtrap, and into the concrete tunnel stop at 30mph The front three cars were compressed into the distance of the sandtrap. Forty three poeple were killed including the driver. Power was on all the throught withnthew driver's hand still on the controller. London Transports worst train crash. Very sad.
Simon
Simon: Something puzzles me about this crash. If the train was approaching a terminal it should have been receiving increasingly restrictive signals. Even if the driver ignored these I'm sure that LT has an Automatic Train Stop (ATS) system comparable to the one we have here,if a driver runs a red signal the brakes are automatically applied and while this may not stop the train in time it might at least slow it down. Was there some other aspect to this crash that is not apparent? Thanks for the info.
Larry,Redbird
It would appear from the article I sought information from that no such measures were in place. They are now. It was down to the driver to stop the train safely. There had been no previous accidents on LT of this nature comparable with Moorgate.
Simon
I guess that up until that point, it simply did not occur to LT that anyone would forget about a terminal station or want to drive into a wall. Now, I believe that all terminals are protected, and perhaps some outdoor terminals are over-protected.
No one really knows why the Moorgate disaster took place. One is that the driver had some sort of fit and was not aware that he had reached the station. However, I read a very good magazine article once that pointed out that the train went over the crossover outside Moorgate so over speed that some passengers fell over. It would have to a very determined grip to keep the deadmans handle held down under those circumstances. The magazine article suggested suicide by the driver, although someone told me that he had taken a large sum of money out of the bank that morning. Simon, is the book still in print?
One thing that I have wondered is whether the guarg was in any position to intervene in any way. At what point was it clear that something was wrong. Are there any procedures or regulations in which the guard is supposed to bring a train to a halt?
I can even remember what I was doing in London that day. It was said at the time in the press reports that the driver sped through the station peering out of the cab with a glazed expression. Alcohol was reported to be found in blood samples but apparently this is normal. The book I sought reference from is LTC (Tom) Rolt's Red for Danger. I think Rob quoted another book.
Simon
Simon, the book i quoted which is sadly long out of print was written by Sally Holloway and covers the Incident from the day before (i.e. what the motorman did at home) - right through until the final wreckage had been cleared.
Moorgate Anatomy of a railway disaster is one of the best books i've read on this subject and if you can find it, I recommend you read it.
To this day the exact cause remains unanswered, in why an experienced motorman, who had driven that route allready that day, should do the unthinkable & drive his train into a dead end at line speed.......
Regards
Rob :^)
I saw the article about the IND second system and was curious as to whether there are any maps on the web for the second system plans.I know that there is a BAHN version of the map but thats not an option for me as i'm a mac user.any suggestions?
Simon: Thank you for the information. I wasn't aware that at that time LT didn't have an ATs in place. We have had our share of crashes over here.Reference the Malbone St Wreck in 1918 and the 14 Street Wreck on the IRT Lexington Av line a few years back. What was interesting was that although the Malbone St Wreck involved wooden Gate Cars and the Lexington Av wreck involved the heaviest cars ever used on the IRT,the steel R-62's, the pictures of the damaged equiptment were remarkably similar. Tonight on the local Public Broadcasting System Channel there was a segment on the King's Cross Fire.Again thanks to you and the other London folks for some very interesting postings.
Larry,RedbirdR33@hotmail
They run left handed through the tunnel ( we got our own way on that one). They swap over just after Calais. If you ever get the chance take a ride on Eurostar. Train crawls through southern England. Accelerates through the tunnel and WOW 186mph through to Paris. Its like flying but at ground level.
> Accelerates through the tunnel and WOW 186mph through to Paris.
> Its like flying but at ground level.
Even if you don't get to ride the Chunnel (I never have) the TGV experience is not to be missed. The Eurostar, or the Thalys TGV from Paris to Brussels is the fastest you or I will ever go on land (until the next generation of TGV's is ready!)
-Dave
I was on both this past summer (Eurostar from London-Paris and Thalys from Paris to Amsterdam) and I was quite impressed by both trains.
Why can't Amtrak be more like that . . . ?
>They run left handed through the tunnel ( we got our own way on that one). They swap over just after Calais.
SNCF trains run left-handed. So do Paris' RER trains.
So I don't think they swap at Calais.
Ive had two trips on the Eurostar and I must say I cannot re-call now whether they run left or right handed. There is a cross over after the Calais entrance unless I am mistaken. Paris metros run right handed. I will seek reference.
Yes, Paris Metro trains run right-handed. I also rode on a line in 1978 identified as the S line, which must have been a suburban commuter line. The trains ran left-handed, on steel wheels using overhead catenary, and the moaning and groaning from the spur-cut bull and pinion gears was outstanding!
The other great metro systems of the world would have to be Paris, Moscow (the busyest in the world by far) and possibly Berlin. Any others?
Absolutely. All the English-centric contributors on this site ignore the Tokyo subway, which is a massive system (3rd or 4th largest in world, I believe)currently undergoing major expansions. Over the next 3 years, an additional 40 km of new lines/extensions will open, including the 'nanboku-sen'(south-north line), municipal line #12 (making a 360 degree circle around the city & equipped with a massive underground rail yard), and an extension to the line linking the new-development landfill areas in Tokyo bay. There are also several major linear-induction propelled monorails in service/under construction.
The Tokyo subway includes a original set of 3rd-rail powered lines (ginza, marunouchi) very similar in feel to the IRT, as well as overhead-catenary powered newer lines. The whole system is air-conditioned, and so punctual that departures are timed down to the second, i.e. a 09:27:30 departure). Trains run on 2-3 minute headways in rush-hour and carry more people per day than in New York or London. The crowding is so bad it has to be experienced to be believed.
Do they still have pushers at station platforms in Tokyo? I'll bet the Lexington Ave. line would pale in comparison to what goes on over there.
As both a native of Stockholm, and a Train Operator in the Stockholm Underground, I must make my vocie heard on behalf of my home city. While Stockholm´s underground system is by no means in the same league as that of London or Tokyo, it is still the 10th or 12th largest system in the world, even larger if you consider the size of Stockholm. We currently move about 265 million passengers every year, with a population of about 1.4 million in the greater Stockholm area. The total length of the system is about 110 km double-track (plus depot areas e t c). The underground serves exactly 100 stations, plus one abandoned (used in times of major construction works) and one never finished. The car roster holds some 850 cars, with a major fleet refurbishment underway. The new C20 stock being introduced is a technological marvel made by ADtranz in Sweden, and is touted by the manufacutera as the world´s most advanced subway car. I have a feeling that most manufacturers would say that, but they do have a strong case. It is, undoubtedly, the largest subway car in the world (47m articulated unit, 97 metric tons at full load, about 520 passengers crush load, top speed 90kph, 8x125kW motors, IGBT thyristors).
/Joakim
Can someone describe tounge and mate switches and double tounge switches and how they differ? I am learning but some of the technical things but unless you are actually working with some of these things it is hard to differentiate between them.
Just Picked Up New Flyer Describing Improvements Being Done to #7 in Flushing
Starting Jan 31
-Main St. Will Have New Escalators And Staircases + Bustops Moved Closer To Station Exit
-Express Runs To Manhattan from 7am to 9pm
->To NY 7-12
->To Flushing 12-9pm
Plus New Cosmetic looks
Theyre not in effect yet. Supposedly Sunday the 8th now, and the elevator may not be in service for a while.
The express service probably will not go into effect until May when the new schedules or "pick" for Train Operators and Conductors goes into effect.
I was on the "G" line twords 10'o clock, getting off at Grand Ave. The "G" I was on come into the station, and as soon as the train stopped, the doors opened and while me and a few family members where stepping out of the train the doors closed (on me) forcing me to pull myself off of the train. Now, the conductor saw me cause I was looking at him (from a distance since I was twords the back of the train), but he didnt re-open the doors. The doors were open for only a very short time. Why was the train in such a hurry to open and close the doors?
[Also on the "F" train from Coney Island same thing happened, except that time it was in the mid-day and it was my back-pack that got cought.]
Thanks
Tom
**On the bright side, now I know I have to be ready to jump off a late night train cause I know this one didn't like stopping for long:>
Are you sure it wasn't an R train? The G operates between Smith-9sts and Court square during those hours(late night)
There are some good reasons why conductors are in such a hurry. None of us wants to answer the nasty questions from a dispatcher about "where did you loose your time?"
No one wants to be late, that guy may have had to use the bathroom, or some such issue.
Here is the prevalent philosophy among my fellow conductors:
People wait for trains, trains DON'T wait for people. Because if you're not waiting in front of the doors when the train stops, you WILL be waiting there when the train leaves.
I know that it sounds cruel, but thats the way it's been since the begining of railroading. I have a schedrule to keep, and our responsibility is to those passengers already on the train, not the one or two poor souls left behind on the platform.
BZZZZT Wrong answer. If you catch someone in the doors let them out
Accident reports take more time than good operating procedures.
If some guy is stuck and can't pull out immediately, the conductor should most certainly jolt the doors to let him out.
But I agree with Steve: there is no reason to keep the doors open any longer than a few seconds during the off-hours, for the sake of one or two passengers. These people should NOT be allowed to take their time getting off.
The same goes for the masses trying to load the trains during rush hours. It's terrible that at certain stations, a constant influx of passengers from a staircase into a nearby train car could keep the train stuck for a matter of minutes. Every man on the platform tries to squeeze through when the conductor jolts the doors.
Did I say Steve? I meant Erik. I'm terribly sorry to both of you.
Is it really a federal offense to hold the doors. I have heard one or two conductors, mostly on Metro-North say ( to people Purposley holding the doors ) that it is a federal offense to impede the motion of a train in anyway whatsoever.
When one hods doors & delays a train they are "Blocking Governmental Administration"
Since the commuter railroads fall under the FRA, anyone who impedes the operation, and is arrested, will be tried in federal court.
I agree wholeheartedly that a train should not be held for people trying to make it on the train. But I have to disagree about people getting off the train. I have seen people who did not have time to get off the train because the doors were only left open for a second or two, and there is no reason for that. Even when there is no one waiting on the platform, the conductor needs to assume that people might be trying to exit the train. Just leaving the doors open for at least three seconds would be fine, but sometimes they do not. It's real hassle if someone has to go to the next stop, and maybe pay another fare if there's no cross-over/under.
The TA policy is; The door should remain open for at least 10 seconds.
The way I handle this situation at night, when I may be tempted to close the doors sooner. I make the proper "in station" anouncements regardless of time of day, this done properly takes at least 7 sec.
As far as being late is concerned, I follow the old rule I learned while in TA Buses, if your late stay late. There is no safe way to make up time on the road. Thats what Dispatchers are for, to make service adjustments.
An observation I have made is that RTO(Subways) is much more interested in "where you lost your time" than they were in Buses. They put on this big show here in RTO that "Every second counts" but heaven forbid you have an incident. I am sure they won't want here "I was trying to make every second count".
Three "S's" rule transit opertions
1. Safety
2. Service to Customers
3. Schedule
in that order and without the first two the third dosen't matter.
Yea, they stressed the three "S's" in buses, but you don't here enough of about it in RTO. Instead they put stickers near the PA mikes that say "Every second counts".
On the first JJ train I rode in March of 1968, the doors didn't stay open for more than maybe 3 seconds at each station. Granted, this was on a Sunday afternoon, and stations weren't crowded.
First of all, there is an old railroad axiom:
"There is always a reason for being late but never an excuse for being early."
Actually, the lot of a conductor is not an easy one, be it rush hour or off hour. I recently rode an E train into Manhattan from Union Turnpike at 7:45 AM. Although, by the time we got to Queens Plaza there was not an available space on the train, it didn't stop people from holding the doors while they tried to squeeze in.
Typical on the off hours, the conductor will be closing the doors and he'll hear form the mezzanine, "Hold the doors." Alas, if he does, the person will come running down, get on the train and then invariably hold the doors for his friends who didn't want to run.
People as a rule are not very bright either. I recently saw one young lady, at Columbus Circle, attempt to board a 'D' train, head first. The doors actually closed around her neck. Fortunately, the door obstruction system worked and the train did not move because the conductor never would have seen her with the crowd on the platform.
Bottom line, no matter how dilligent a conductor is, someone will always try to squeeze onto the train as the doors close. Unless you've tried it, you can't imagine how difficult the C/Rs job can be...
Astoria bound N at Fifth Ave. one day. I had an R32, and I was looking out the cab window during the station stop. Conductor attempted to close down. While the doors were in the closing mode, some young woman quickly approached the train and held out this white package in front of her as if the doors operated like elevator doors. The conductor saw this & immediately hit the opening buttons. She got on, he closed down. As I released the brakes, I quickly opened my cab door because I was curious. That white package was a baby blanket with the baby wrapped in it.
Almost as bad is the stroller,with baby inside,used to block the doors as they're closing. Then there's the "Yuppie Dive",an event similar to what Steve described. Should an injury occur,their story is always that they were hit by the doors,when in fact it was the other way around. On the bright side,I've noticed that the general public seems to getting fed up with such behavior,and are more willing to come forward as witnesses to such stupidity.
Almost as bad is the stroller,with baby inside,used to block the doors as they're closing. Then there's the "Yuppie Dive",an event similar to what Steve described. Should an injury occur,their story is always that they were hit by the doors,when in fact it was the other way around. On the bright side,I've noticed that the general public seems to getting fed up with such behavior,and are more willing to come forward as witnesses to such stupidity.
This isn't subway, but my favorite "idiot passenger in doors" is the ditz who gets off a car at the treadle doors first, then turns around and picks up the child from the top step. The door promptly closes on the kid and the woman's (they're usually the mother) arms. Usually the sensitive edge picks up the blockage and reopens the doors, but sometimes not. I never had it happen to me, but I've read accident reports where the "picker upper" got dragged. My late grandmother saw a woman get caught & dragged by the rear treadle door on on of our OMDE (One Man Double End) semi-convertibles. She REFUSED to get off at a treadle door for the rest of her life.
Just be glad all of the NYC subway are standard subway cars. The Green Line in Boston is a Light Rail line (for those who don't know), and it takes forever for people to get on and off the train since there are only a few doors, loads of people, and stairs to climb. Sometimes the train is in the station for 3 to 5 minutes. However, conductors don't have a choice but to wait, and I'm assuming the M.B.T.A makes time allowances for this. When you have a system that was built 102 years ago for a few hundered thousand people, and now you get over a million riders per day, it can get real interesting. Luckily the red, orange and blue lines are regular subways...with the exception of the Asmont extension of the red line, which still uses the PCC trolleys.-Nick
The Boston Green Line trolleys are accidents waiting to happen. Not the fault of the MBTA; it's the riders. Every so often I see students in front of Boston U. run across the street through traffic, waving their arms and yelling at an inbound trolley to wait up. On occasion, when the trolley DOES wait up, they get held up by the first student or two because all their friends are waiting for the traffic to clear!
Yeah, I know how that is....I'm one of 250,000 Boston college students myself. While I don't play games like that, many others do. However, I have to be careful in Cleveland Circle, where the C trains turn around. It's not just cars that I have to worry about getting hit! One of the big problems is that the Green Line runs mostly single cars, with a few double cars during peak hours. But the cars don't keep up with the demand of people, many trains fill up at the first stop (Government Center), and the cars get more and more crowded stop after stop. The problem is that while the cars can connect to each other, you can't walk through them, so a paid conductor has to be in every car. I hope the next generation of trolleys allow you to walk through each car, then the M.B.T.A can start running more double cars, and even triple cars....which I've only seen once. Triple cars are feasable, even the shortest outbound platforms are 3 cars long.-Nick
The same thing happens here in Phila on the Kawasaki LRV's. There are many warnings at the center doors advising passengers to not leave small children on the step behind them since the sensor may not accurately pick up the weight and the doors will close. Also, the parents pick up the kids behind them, as Dan described, and the doors close. I use the subway-surface infrequently but have seen numerous instances of parents ignoring the warnings and then watching the car begin to move away from a subway stop with children still on the steps. This is usually followed by banging on the car sides, profanity, etc. It is truly unbelievable!
Re: sticking packages, etc., in the doors.
Here in Chicago, the trial of Rachel Barton v. Chicago & NorthWestern Transportation Company et al. is in full swing. This involves a woman who lost her leg when her violin case (containing a Strad worth half a million!) got caught in the doors of a Metra train, she did not or could not get free, and she was dragged under the train as it took off. There is some speculation that she purposely put the case in the door so as to keep the doors open and thus catch the train. There is also speculation that the case really did get stuck but she would not let go because of the violin's value (despite the fact that it was insured). Obviously, these two speculations are mutually exclusive.
Her main contentions are that the doors have no safety mechanism to reopen or even warn if they are blocked, that the conductor's don't check ip to the last second for people stuck in the doors, and that she couldn't get free of the violin case. IIRC, Metra is saying that its trains are not suited for checking at the last minute and that they have no duty to have safety mechanisms on the doors, and that her damages should be reduced due to her negligence in not letting go of the case.
[ Metra is saying that its trains are not suited for checking at the last minute and that they have no duty to have safety mechanisms on the doors ]
Wow!
Not suited for checking?? A conductor can't stick his head out a window or door and make sure people are safe as the train starts to move? That would seem like basic humanity to me. How can a transit authority say that the safety of its passengers is not it's concern??
"A conductor can't stick his head out a window or door and make sure people are safe as the train starts to move?"
Since all the windows on a Metra train are sealed, except for the engineer's side window, the conductor cannot stick his or her head out as conductors and operators on the subway do. As for looking out the door, some conductors do this, but since to do this they are holding the doors open with their bodies and leaning over to look down the side of the train, right before it is about to start moving, they are placing themselves at a significant risk of falling off/under the train.
As to a duty to have safety mechanisms on the door, people are used to this from elevators, but few (if any?) railways have automatic re-openers on their doors. Unless such a mechanism can automatically and reliably stop the train from taking off as well as holding the doors, an automatic door-reopener could actually be quite dangerous.
[ As for looking out the door, some conductors do this, but since to do this they are holding the doors open with their bodies and leaning over to look down the side of the train, right before it is about to start moving, they are placing themselves at a significant risk of falling off/under the train. ]
You're mostly right, but I have observed SEPTA and AMTRAK conductors do this at every stop. With a good handle to hold on to, and some basic safety training, I don't think it's all that dangerous.
[ Unless such a mechanism can automatically and reliably stop the train from taking off as well as holding the doors, an automatic door-reopener could actually be quite dangerous. ]
These issues have been worked out on most subway cars - why not borrow door safety systems from those types of rolling stock?
The fact is, all that's required is a light to indicate when all of the doors are fully closed. It could be inside, next to each door, so that a conductor could monitor it without putting himself at any risk whatsoever.
What really bothers me is the apparent lack of concern for passenger safety. How is it that no one saw this coming? There is no system for making sure the doors are closed AND no one checks to see if someone is caught?? I know it will never happen, but if you ask me, there should be criminal action against the people who made the decisions against any of those protections.
And to not see people admitting that they made a grave mistake is even more upsetting. How can they defend themselves? We're talking about people's lives here and they're saying it's not their duty?
The case of this woman may be unique - if she could have let go of the violin and not lost her leg, then that is different. But what if someone got their arm caught and was dragged along? People die that way.
I am sure that when London Underground trains had guards, it was electrically impossible to give the starting signal unless all doors were properly closed. With OPTO, it is not possible to start a train unless all doors are likewise properly closed. Underground cars have had a door pilot light on the outside of each car since the 1950s, but this was so that a car that was preventing the starting signal could be quickly identified
If this is correct, and assuming that the technology is reliable and cheap, then surely its use should be commonplace. I suppose there might be the problem that a single passenger could prevent a train departure by the use of an object, but is this the reason why these systems are not universal?
"These issues have been worked out on most subway cars - why not borrow door safety systems from those types of rolling stock?"
But the Metra trains, with the exception of the Electric Line, are not MU electric trains like a subway. They are diesel locomotives pulling cars. I would tend to think that would complicate any system of preventing the train from moving if a door is open or blocked. Are there railways with diesel locos pulling unpowered cars that have door safety systems?
"The fact is, all that's required is a light to indicate when all of the doors are fully closed. It could be inside, next to each door, so that a conductor could monitor it without putting himself at any risk whatsoever."
A light letting the conductor know if any door is open could be done without too much complication, since the doors are electrically controlled from one location and thus the wiring is there already. But if the light comes on, the only way the conductor has of preventing the train from taking off is pulling the emergency brake, buzzing a stop, or yelling "STOP" into his radio -- all of those being limited by the conductor's reaction time. I suppose you could, with some rewiring, have the indicator light in the engineer's cab, and have a rule that he cannot release the brake until the light shows all doors closed.
[A light letting the conductor know if any door is open could be done without too much complication, since the doors are electrically controlled from one location and thus the wiring is there already. But if the light comes on, the only way the conductor has of preventing the train from taking off is pulling the emergency brake, buzzing a stop, or yelling "STOP" into his radio -- all of those being limited by the conductor's reaction time. I suppose you could, with some rewiring, have the indicator light in the engineer's cab, and have a rule that he cannot release the brake until the light shows all doors
closed.]
Or there can be a requirement that the conductor has to give an "all clear" (in other words, all doors are closed) before the engineer can start the train.
Indeed, if the lights can be wired to a door control position, they can be wired to a panel in the "cab". The engineer then must either see all clear or receive verbal override account failed indicator from the conductor. Mind you, this is not rocket science. The IC Electrics--built 1926-7!--had indicator lights in the cabs, and the procedure was go only after they cleared or the conductor signaled by buzzer.
I have never seen METRA equipment up close but it seems to me that a simple modification to the conductor's window would solve this problem. Perhaps METRA is guilty of the corporate arrogance thet the TA is often accused of.
Metra Trains are probably very similar to our local commuter railroads, I know Metro-North Uses a conductor-Motorman Buzzer. One conductor in the last car also shines a flashlight which reflects in the motormans side-view mirror after all the doors are closed.
There IS no conductor's window on Metra trains! If there were, they could stick there heads out like the subway conductors and operators do and there wouldn't be a problem.
A Metra car has one set of double doors on each side of the car, in the middle of the car. Each door has a sealed window in it at head height. The doors lead into a vestibule only as wide as the doors. You then turn right or left and go through another (manually-operated) sliding door to enter either passenger compartment of the car. Right inside the door are stairs leading up to the upper seating gallery. Past the stairs are the rows of passenger seats, with sealed windows ad head height from a sitting perspective. Except for a lavatory in one corner of the car, that's it. There's no conductor station, area, or cab as on subways. The conductor's position, when not roaming the train, is in the vestibule, and he controls the doors from a panel right above the doors.
Please find a photo of a Metra car on the Net and look at it before you make any snap judgments about what modifications can or cannot be made to the cars, and thus about Metra management.
[There IS no conductor's window on Metra trains! If there were, they could stick there heads out like the subway conductors and operators do and there wouldn't be a problem.
Please find a photo of a Metra car on the Net and look at it before you make any snap judgments about what modifications can or cannot be made to the cars, and thus about Metra management.]
This just begs the question: Why did Metra order cars that lack opening windows and cannot be modified? It must have occurred to management that conductors' inability to see could be a safety hazard.
I stand corrected but since a picture of the car would not likely indicate the position of the MDC relative to the windows, I doubt that this would help. As stated in a previous post, Why would METRA opt for such an inadequate design? I could unserstand why you might like the design. It must be a real money maker for you or your friends.
"I could understand why you might like the design. It must be a real money maker for you or your friends."
There's an ignoramus statement for you right there!! Ok, Amazing Kreskin, how do YOU *KNOW* that I or anyone I know makes money off the design?
As a matter of fact, I'm just a concerned citizen with a viewpoint. I don't work for the Chicago & NorthWestern Railway, Metra, RTA, the manufacturers or vendors of rail cars to any of them, or any of their law firms. But rather than face the fact that someone just plain disagrees with you, you have to impugn (that means insult, dingbat!) their motives by implying they profit personally from the present configuration of Metra's train cars.
This is part of a breakdown of debate and discussion in society. Some people are so sure of their position that they can't face that someone honestly disagrees with them. Therefore, the opposition is not just wrong or stupid, it must be evil! They must be in the pockets of special interests!
I've heard the "you must be making money off it!" insult used more than once on this board in the past. Maybe we should have a rule that nobody makes the blank statement that someone who posts a comment you disagree with must be profiting from the decision you disagree with unless you actually KNOW that they profit from it?
[There's an ignoramus statement for you right there!! Ok, Amazing Kreskin, how do YOU *KNOW* that I or anyone I know makes money off the design?]
I believe what he meant is that as a lawyer, you (if not you personally, then some of your colleagues) benefit from the personal injury/wrongful death suits that arise from this unsafe design.
In the Saturday February 6 NY Daily News, page 6, is an article about the MTA is refusing to give refunds to people who lose or misplace their Metrocards-even though the MTA has the technology to do so.
After you good folks read the article your thoughts as usual are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Suggestion: When you buy a MetroCard write down the s/n & put that info someplace safe (just like you would do with Travlers Checks).
If you bought a "value" MC there isn't any good reason why the TA shouldn't give you your money back. The "time/unlimited" MC is a bit more difficulate, but if you loose a monthly unlim in the beggining of the month, they SHOULD be able to give you a refund.
With the s/n they CAN "negitive list" the card so it's dead. They can also see where it is being used, i.e. if you lost it a week ago & they can see that it isn't currently being used ... bingo ! Pick up a form from your friendly subway station agent.
Disclaimer: I don't work for the TA or DOT.
Mr t__:^)
This MTA set-up is great. The pols demand more service, while allocating less money for transporation than anywhere else. All the money is diverted to Democratic (non-profit health and social service) and Republican (every relative on the Nassau County payroll) patronage organizations.
With the reopoening of the 63rd Street line to full service. Does the B get round the clock service on the full route or does it revert back to two Midnight shuttles. What time does the first and last Q's depart Queensbride Is there still a service overlap in the evening between 9-10pm
The service is scheduled to revert to what it was before the 63rd Street line shutdown one year ago:
--Q to 21st Street Monday-Friday from 6a-9:30p
--B to 21st Street Monday-Friday 9:30p-1a and all day on weekends
--F to 21st St overnight 7 days a week
Michael
That can't be because the B had been operating two shuttles one in B'klyn and on between 2nd ave and Queensbridge refur to your old subway map.
Which old subway map are you talking about?
Since the Queensbridge extension opened in 1989, service has run in the following patterns (forgive me for not knowing the years...):
Pattern 1 (1989-????)
Q-21st St-Brighton Beach, weekdays 6a-9p; 21st St-2nd Avenue weeknights 9p-1a
B-168th St-Coney Island, weekdays 6a-12midnight; 21st Street-Coney Island weekends
I'm not sure what ran overnight, but I know there NEVER was a B shuttle to Second Avenue; it was either an F train or the Q shuttle to Second Avenue (the train to the plane was gone at this point). This is where you might be thinking there was a B shuttle
Pattern 2
Q-21st St-Brighton Beach, weekdays 6a-9p
B-168th St-Coney Island, weekdays 6a-9p; 21st St-Coney Island, weekdays 9p-1a and weekends
Q/F combination-overnights. This train was designated an F to 47/50 St, then became a Q between 47/50 to 21st St (in patterns 3, you will notice this was changed. Finally, logic prevailed at the TA).
Pattern 3
Q-21st St-Brighton Beach, weekdays 6a-9p
B-168th St-Coney Island, weekdays 6a-9p; 21st St-Coney Island, weekdays 9p-1a and weekends
F-21st St-Coney Island overnights.
Pattern 3 is what was in effect before the 63rd Street line reconstruction.
Michael
I'm talking about the Map dated September 1997 When teh F reinstated into Jamaica 24 hours a day, a night shuttle was instituded between 2nd Ave/Houston St and Queensbridge. Through the map states it's a S train It is actually a b train.
Guess what? You're right. :-)
I remember that now, but it was so brief... I believe it had something to do with the 63rd Street connection and work north of Queens Plaza (the schedule situation with the G's terminating at Court Square all times).
I don't know if they'll go that route again, though.
Michael
The original evenings/nights shuttle was designated as Q, and used the Q's R-68's.
Funny, but a few years ago, before new signs were put up at 14th St, I could see that there were signs pasted over something, and looking at the imprint at what was underneath, it was the B to 2nd Av, on the southbound side, and to 21st St on the northbound side! And to further prove it was new, it was in the larger fonts, that began to be used in the mid-90's. So there must have been some prposal to have a B shuttle on 6th Av that got changed.
If the F will serve 21st Street overnight, what line will serve 179th Street overnight? The G?
Most likely the G, yes.
Remember—it is still operating to Continental Avenue weekdays from 6a-9p. It is only AFTER the 63rd Street extension opens that the G will be cut back to Court Square (or so many people believe).
BTW: the 63rd Street extension won't open for another two years (maybe sooner). But it's not imminent.
Michael
The G is still scheduled to terminate at Court Square for our next pick during late night hours and weekends.The F will still go to 179st 24/7.I will let you know what will go to 21st by the end of the week when I look at the pick book.(I'm off on wed/thu)
Why didn't the G terminate at Church ave? So the F go express from Church ave to Bergen St both way and the G go local from Bergen St to terminate at Church Ave both way. So the F go local after Church Ave to Stillwell Ave.
[Why didn't the G terminate at Church ave? So the F go express from Church ave to Bergen St both way and the G go local from Bergen St to terminate at Church Ave both way. So the F go local after Church Ave to Stillwell Ave. ]
Why no G to Church? No good reason. It makes sense operationally; Culver locals would not be held up by Gs turning around between Smith/9th and 4th. In order to maintain frequency, they'd have to put more trains on the G, which is not likely due to the secret car shortage and the relative insignificance of the line.
F expresses are a good idea, and putting more Gs on the local are too (I'd say about a third of your average Manhattan-bound morning F transfers at Jay, so it would dovetail nicely with current patterns) but eliminating all F locals past Church would be neither popular nor smart.
-Daniel Casey
That could not be done now because F trains cannot stop at Bergen St. lower level due to poor platform conditions. It is so bad due to leaking water damage, the monetary cost would be prohibitive. Plus that was tried already many years ago, passengers for local stops "pitched a bitch" because they didn't like having to wait for a connecting GG train for their stop. It added too much additional travel time to their trip.
Any opinions on whether or not the TA should bother
with replacements for lost or stolen cards? MTA's Getting Free Ride — Pol
from today's Daily News.
I think the MTA could use the money for thousands of things better than helping out careless, unorganized people.
Don't get me wrong; I understand if somebody gets their Metrocard stolen, it's not their fault. But on the other hand, this issue doesn't justify the extra cost, time, and effort on the part of the MTA which could be better used elsewhere.
Now that I've said all that... I can't seem to access the article. Does anyone know what kind of costs this policy would involve?
A MetroCard, like a subway token should be classified as a "bearer" instrument.
I tried the link on my original post. It works. Anyway, the article doesn't mention cost- only that the MTA considers that it would be a logistical nightmare. I agree--the effort and cost wasted on such a program could be much better used elsewhere.
Well, the only way this will work at all is if the customer makes a note of the serial number on the card. I can't remember the last time I paid attention to anything on the card other than 'do I have enough fare?'
-Hank
I did write down the number of my very first card but not since.
I did write down the number of my very first card but not
since.
It would be nice if lost Metrocards could be replaced, but somehow I doubt it'll happen anytime soon. I'm actually a lot more concerned about something else. Every month, I buy a $214 monthly LIRR ticket. If that's lost, there's no replacement available and I'm out a lot more money than would be the case with a MC. Even worse, the LIRR ticket is printed on relatively flimsy card stock that might not survive an accidental trip through the washing machine (someday I'll have to experiment with the previous month's ticket and see what happens).
Peter, You can apply for a refund ... don't know anyone who ever got one though.
Mr t__:^)
To Thurston- Please e-mail me re: your depot-my PC crashed and I lost the info.
Regarding refunds on lost LIRR monthlies ... you probably can get refunds if you're in the Mail&Ride program, as the LIRR then has your name and ticket serial number. But that wouldn't do me much good, as I always buy my tickets each month for cash (technically, the LIRR doesn't know I exist). I know, I know, M&R probably would be a good idea, guess it's just inertia on my part that I don't participate (although the anonymity is sorta nice in a way). Meanwhile, I just take *real* good care of the tix!
The TA has an office for this purpose on the ground floor at 370 Jay Street Brooklyn.
Mr t__:^)
There is another problem. Some cards such as employee passes, reduced Fare MetroCard, School Passes are listed as stolen if they are lost. The problem with that is when the person finds the card and then tries to use the card. The card will not work, they bring it to the booth and I see that it was "negative listed" (not good for entry into the system.) This creates hard feelings and they usually jump. No- if I lose a twenty dollar bill it is lost--I dont expect that I can go to a bank and get another just because I lost one bill.
I suggest that iron maidens be placed everywhere to prevent that bad guys from not paying their fair.
I like your idea, but during rush hours they would be too slow and if we used service gates we'd have people rushing the gate. I have worked gate jobs and even booths. They would wait till we open the gate for a carriage or bicycle or wheelchair and then grad the gate before it latches and beat the fare that way-of course, we challenge the fare ebater but they know when cops are not around or when the train arrives and jump on the train before the cops can catch the feare jumper. We call these people "professional fare beaters" vs the kids who get caught.
[We call these people "professional fare beaters" vs the
kids who get caught.]
I have memories of "fare eaters", you remember the guys that used to suck the tokens out of the slot after they had jammed it so the token wouldn't go all the way down. You would see these same guys up on the street offering to sell you that token ... yuck :-(
Mr t__:^)
1st I don't agree with Henry ... the TA should provide refunds, provided the customer knows the s/n on the card, if not well they'll learn to write it down for the next time.
2nd to my token booth friend ... don't take this personal, BUT if someone shows up with a employee, senior, or disabled MC, KEEP the card, if the customer doesn't look like the photo ! If they complain, ask if they would like to wait for your supvr & instead call the police to take them away in handcuffs ! Are these folks that apparently are doing that to you realy THAT STUPID ? Alternately, I have to feel for you folks, since you're assigned to that station over a period of time ... I wouldn't want to have to look over my shoulder every time I came to work because I did the right thing & the customer got mad. We don't encourage customers to pay us a visit to this depot.
3rd school passes, that's a little harder & you have probally been getting a run on them, i.e. they just expired.
Mr t__:^)
SOmetimes the police do not show up for 1 1/2 HOURS! seriously. we do keep fraudulent passes but most then proceed to jump. Yesterday I arrived at WTC and noticed a fare beater. Out of habit I challengesd the person and to my surprise a PATH agent was there and motioned for a neraby PA Cop who "rewarded" the fare beater even though he jumped back out!
Also if we keep a card we *have* to contact supervision and write a statement. One time at Stilwell I did get a cop to arrest a senior citizen who tried to use a school pass. The agent in the booth noticed and mentioned there was a plain clothes cop in the station. I left the booth(I was on gates) and went to the cop. The cop went over to the guy who was still swiping the student pass and showed the senior his badge. The guy was arrested and lead away in handcuffs. Another time someone tried to add money to a card that would not go into our computer. We discovered the card was three cards pieced together. We caught the scam and kept the card-we had to call supervision who took the card and yes, the guy jumped when we called the cops who never showed.
But, if he was tying to add money onto a card what would be the purpose of using three cards pieced together. How does this work as a scam?
He thought he could hide using someone's school pass.
No cabn do-- the computer tells s what kind of card they give us.
When I became a motorman about 19 years ago, when it was necessary to cut out a motor, we were taught to cut out 1 thru 8, GS & CB+. A few years later, we were reinstructed to leave the CB+ in. Then I noticed a GE vs. Westinghouse problem: when the operating car was a Westinghouse, the car sometimes would take power with the CB+ in while all the other circuit breakers were cut out. According to my car inspector uncle, what should happen is RTO senior supervision should have told us to cut out the CB+ on the Westinghouse cars only, and leave the CB+ in on the GE's. So solving one problem on the GE's now became a problem for the Westinghouse! One day while operating a D train from then Bronx, 135 St. tower frantically called me and Command Center informing us that I had flames shooting out of the undercarriage of the last car (R42 which were all Westinghouse before GOH). I had to come in against the wall at 125 because we had an A train on the express being prepared to move north on second car operation due to P wire failure! I made my way back to the last car , most all passengers made their way up to the mezzanine due to the smoke in the station, and I found that motor already cut out. Naturally, the fire stopped once the car was no longer taking power and the smoke cleared, and I took the train to A6 at 135 St., where an RCI from an emergency truck did the quick disconnect method thence I took the train to Concourse Yard. When I got to the yard, I looked in where the grids were, everything was charcoal back as far as my eye could see. It is very easy to second guess, but I doubt if this would have happened if we were instructed to cut out the CB+ on the Westinghouse cars.
Here we go again with more technical stuff. Westinghouse cars normally generate around 40 Amps in coast. It can, however, run up to 140 amps. Of course, in braking the currents can run as high as 400 amps. If the propulsion control on a car fails, the car is usually set up in a coasting configuration. As it's pulled along, it continuallt generates the coast current. When the current exceeds the 140 Amp limit, the logic energizes a contactor known as the J/BDC. The BDC stands for Build Down Contactor, which will shunt the coast current to zero to control it. The trouble begins when the J/BDC does not do its' job. The coasting current continues to build as the car is pulled along at 40 MPH. The grids which are designed to handle 400 amps for 20-30 seconds, start handling 800 amps or more for several minutes. You don't know it until you get a report of Smoke Issuing and you find the molten grids melting under the car.
Unfortunately, this will happen with the CB+ on or off if the J/BDC or the JMR (Controls the J/BDC) or the FFR (Field Forcing Relay) have failed. As long as the dynamic loop is in tact and the car is moving, this will be the result. The only sure way to prevent this is by breaking the Dynamic Current loop, by taking the Quick Disconnects down.
This Westinghouse propulsion system problem is not unique to the TA. Path which is 100% Westinghouse has the same trouble. They have already had limited success with some J/BDC modifications. The TA is taking the difinative step and is replacing the current Westinghouse Propulsion system on 1,550 cars (R-68, R-68A and R-62A) with the Westinghouse E-Cam controller (over the next two years).
Steve, Actually this tech stuff is highly interesting to me(and I hope others). Thanks for taking the time to elucidate. f
I find it interesting too but am understandiding maybe 60% but I hope to get better. Thanks Steve
I,for one, find the tech stuff interesting and educational;I also appreciate your use of plain english.
Re: PATH cars;PA types use a single lever type switch to cut out the traction motors as opposed to shutting off a series of circuit breakers as is done on NYCT cars. There were a number of "hot grid" incidents like the ones you describe that were greatly reduced after PATH CED issued a directive requiring that the Dynamic Brake circuit breaker (a separate 37V breaker on the panel board) also be cut out when cutting out the traction motors.
Until reading your post,I thought that PATH's Dynamic Brake and NYCT's #5 breaker were identical in function.Evidently,they're not. Is there some difference in how the dynamic brake is wired or controlled?
Thanks in advance.
As far as I know, there is no difference. Unfortunately, the #5 breaker only disables the car involved from seeing the energized dynamic brake wire. In order to prevent a hot grid incident of the type I described, the Hi Voltage loops from both trucks must be broken. The surest way of doing this is to drop the quick disconnects.
Unfortunately, the difference between cutting out controls and cutting out motors makes the difference here. Cutting out the motors is, as Steve points out, breaking the dynamic brake loop. Cutting out the controls prevents the car from taking power, or disabling the whole train but leaves the motor circuit intact. In Boston the standard method is a seven point drum switch which breaks the control circuits on the car away from the train line and usually another drum switch which open the motor circuit. Both are opened when a car goes disabled.
Being in the museum biz, Gerry & I are familiar with main
circuit (aka motor circuit, aka hi-voltage) cutouts. On
'K' controllers you have the nice little knife switches with
insulated (you hope) wooden handles inside the controller
that let you cut out the bad motor (or pair of motors for 4-motor
cars). On power-operated control equipment, there's often a
box under the car with a rotating lever marked 0 1 2 3: 0 all
motors in 1: cut out motor (pair )#1 2: cut out motor (pair) #2
3: cut out everything. An interlock with the switch group
prevents the car from entering parallel if a motor is cut out.
Control-circuit cutouts were favored because they could be exercised
from above board. Some equipment carried both. To the best
of my knowledge, no NYCTS car had motor circuit cutout switches.
Evidently Boston uses them, and so does Chicago. Gerry: where is
the motor circuit cutout?
Steve...I thought about what I said with the reverser and I think
it will work, assuming the failed car's group switch logic is
in such a state that it will throw its reverser on command.
I'm not that familiar with WH CAM, and I can't find my diagrams
on it. I'm not sure I understand why removing CB+ doesn't break
the dynamic loop. On GE SCM, P1, P2, B1 and B2 all have to be
in to create this circuit. Remove CB+ and those contactors lose
their energization. What's the story with CAM? Are those circuits
being made up via the cam switches themselves?
Jeff:
Both Boston and Chicago developed their control methodology from the MU PCC car which had a Loop Cut Out drum to prevent towing with the motors reversed. I know the 1951 East Boston Cars had a similar device.
In the old two motor arrangements prior to 1940, a motor cut out wasn't needed since the control circuits were the only means of creating a parallel circuit capable of regeneration. The more modern four motor circuits do not have an 'off' position - the cam controllers set up either a series power circuit, a parallel power circuit or a dynamic brake loop (which is the default). Opening either leg of the loop is all that is needed to prevent current flow. I am not sure whether there are loop cutouts on the newer Boston Equipment. Next time I ride the present equipment I will look for the telltale LCO stencil.
Actually I was thinking more along the lines of the motor circuit
cutouts on older equipment, like the Chicago North Shore cars and
4000 series.
Gerry is in the museum biz too, so he knows what happens when you
throw the reverser on a K35 controller while the car is moving fast!
In fact, this practice was relied on by trolley motormen as an
emergency stop (oooops, sorry, blew all the motors) and when the PCC
was introduced with the motors permanently in series, they had to
put in a little "bonus": when you center the reverse lever, it sets
up the figure-8 brake loop. Don't tow a car like that! Of course,
on the PCC, they were pretty serious about emergency stop: you
could plug the reverser, push the brake pedal to the floor where
it latches in the emergency position, giving you full tread and
track brakes too, and then run like hell to the other end of the car!
Jeff:
The reverser on the Boston MU cars doesnt have a bucking position. It is air operated and either forward or reverse. The master reverser just sets up the control circuits, the car is set up to be a TK (second or third car) with the handle centered.
Sounds like the Boston 7 point switch is comparable to the PATH motor cut out switch. Placing the switch to OFF on a PA car results in an exhaust of air and a short humming sound from the control package as if the pilot motor were recycling;this leads me to think that use of this switch disables the control group rather than simply cutting power to the motors themselves.
It's becoming clearer....Thank You,Gentlemen!
Since Jamaica Shop only has GE cars, I don't have a set of Westinghouse prints home to explain "Why" in the detail that some have asked for but I will try to get that info tonight. But fur Jeff and Gerry, let me try to explain what usually happens. My favorite example is:
A northbound D train leaves 59th, heading for 125th St. Under normal conditions, a train will coast for 5 of the 7 minute trip. During those 5 minutes, in the case of a failure, the coast current continues to build. The J/BDC should pull in at 140 amps to shunt that current down to almost zero. If it doesn't, the grids in the braking loop (which will handle 400 amps for 20-30 seconds) begin to overheat & melt. Cutting out the motors irrelavent because the train crew is unaware that this is going on until it's too late. The controller may, otherwise sequence properly or it may not.
Since Jamaica Shop only has GE cars, I don't have a set of Westinghouse prints home to explain "Why" in the detail that some have asked for but I will try to get that info tonight. But fur Jeff and Gerry, let me try to explain what usually happens. My favorite example is:
A northbound D train leaves 59th, heading for 125th St. Under normal conditions, a train will coast for 5 of the 7 minute trip. During those 5 minutes, in the case of a failure, the coast current continues to build. The J/BDC should pull in at 140 amps to shunt that current down to almost zero. If it doesn't, the grids in the braking loop (which will handle 400 amps for 20-30 seconds) begin to overheat & melt. Cutting out the motors irrelavent because the train crew is unaware that this is going on until it's too late. The controller may, otherwise sequence properly or it may not.
Unless PATH has made some major modifications in the last year, I don't believe that the Dynamic Brake Loop can be broken via a switch.
Steve....what causes J/BDC to hang up so frequently? Aren't
the fields fully shunted when the group is in coast/spotting?
Hmmm, what do you think about this: put the reverse key in
reverse, apply brake, take a nip of power to throw the reversers
under the cars, then cut-out the b/o car. Will any dynamic current
be generated if the reverser is the other way? Hmmm...I've gotta
think about that one.
There are several reasons that the J/BDC won't pull in. Mechanically, the spring breaks, there are 2 rivets prone to failure, or the contactor armature sometimes breaks. In addition, the JMR (relay) is in series with the J/BDC coil as is one of the fingers of the FFR (which is particularly vulnerable to breaking). The J/BDC is so critical that .005" of wear on the tips can cause it not to make up. The tips MUST be replaced every 40,000 miles.
I doubt that anything you sugested will work for 2 reasons:
First, the propulsion circuit has already failed or this would not occur.
Second, you usually don't know it's happening until it's too late.
One of the problems is that the fault light doesn't come on. The Brake Overload relay on the R-68s, for example, is set at 1,450 Amps. It was feared that setting it lower would cause false trips on spikes. If the BOR doesn't trip, the yellow light will never come on. Westinghouse proposed a thermal detect system that would open the Hi-V loop. We've opted to go with the E-cam because it's simply too reliable not to.
I hope you have some where to put the thing. I can put you in touch with the trucking company that moved 6398, It cost almost $6000 bucks to go from 207th St. to Kingston NY. Then there are the arrangements to move the car within the subway system first! If we didn't have some very powerful help from people in high places, I doubt it could have been done.
What about parts? The technical know-how? So many questions, if your'e really interested how about voulenteering at the Trolley Museum of New York? You can help restore an R4 or an R16, the Lo-V or the Q car. Maybe operate, after you become qualified. E-mail me for more details.
I saw a "door closing on a rider" situation an the A the other day. The rider began cursing and banging on the Motormans door. The cops were there at the next stop (Hoyt Sch.) to remove the passenger, however my question is this... What can and can't a conductor\motorman do. Someone once told me, if nessecary the conductor can put the train "Out of service" and require everyone to get off for any reason he he sees fit.
Thats true only if your delaying service or being DISARDORLY.Or
doing anything your not suppose to do. The guy who was banged on the motorman cab curseing is considered being DISARDORLY and Police should
by called to the train by the train crew
sorry cOnductors, not cunductors
What lines are the BMT/IND R38 Subway cars presently being used on, and what is the best location to get photos of the tops of these cars.
R-38's are on the A line. There are a few on the C line also.
I assume you are looking to model them. Here's what you do: Go to the UTICA AVENUE IND station and go up on one of the crossovers. You're bound to see one either on the "A" or "C" lines in a matter of minutes. Then just point your camera down at the top of the train and you're all set. You will get an angled shot here. Best time is AM Rush hour, between 8 and 9 AM. While you're there, check out the recent station renovations and the mosaics in the exit ramps. (Photos coming to Line-by-line/Station-by-Station soon!). If that doesn't work out, go out to Howard Beach Station and do the same thing from the window in the crossover. The "C" doesn't run there, just the "A", so you may have to wait until an R38 shows up.
Wayne
Here's another spot to photograph the tops of R-38's: If you happen to be upton, get off at 190th St and the Mezzanine is right over top of the trackway. decent angle shot there also
Gonzo
Did R-27s ran on the B line?
Hey Joseph why don't u check www.nycsubway.org and go to Illustrated Subway Cars Roster so u can find out yourself. I took a R27/30 when i was a young kid and R27/30 run on M,BB,QJ,NX,QB in the early 60s to 70s.
The R27s ran on the B line off-and on since the Chrystie Street link opened in 1967. In 1986-87, the R27s were displaced off of the R line and many of them were sent out to the J/L/M lines to replace the remaining R16 fleet and to the C line to replace the non GOH r10s while a small part of the fleet was used on the Franklin SAhuttle and the temporary 6th Ave shuttle. A subfleet of non-redbird r27s was regularly assinged to the M line and based in Coney Island. While the R40 slants were being overhauled in 1987-88 the non-redbird R27s were used on the B on a part time basis which ran via Broadway to Astoria. I don't think the non-redbirds were used on the 168th St-34th/6th Ave leg. When the rebuilt R40s appeared in 1988, the non-redbirds were put out to pasture.
You had just a smidgen of R-27's runnin the 168th leg of the B line very briefly say like 4-6 mo at the max and only 1 train of them out of many. I also recall them being pressed into 8th Ave K service whenever the B deadheaded up there after a final run from Coney Island
In the early 60's my friends Bobby Kouns, Bobby O'brien, and i would go over to the old trolley barn and play,mostly on the 2nd floor trolley car used to train motormen, has anyone taken photos or movies of this long gone structure ? as the Fresh Pond train yard is still there and being used, a new bus garage was built in place of the trolley barn photos must exist....countless fans have taken photos of the gate cars either in the yard or at the Fresh Pond station.....i'd like to get photos of this old building so i could build one for my layout........ Thanks,Karl
A picture of the street level Fresh Pond Station recently ran in the Queens Chronicle newspaper. They can be reached at: QChron@aol.com.
Or you could try: Icon Archives, PO Box 965, Rockville Centre, NY 11571. They have a catalog of pictures going back 50 to 75 years of different areas of Queens County.
gerry
Does the Hollywood loan R27 to make movie call "Money Train"?
This the Hollywood load R27 to make movie call "Money Train"?
I think I can make out what you're trying to say; correct me if I'm wrong. The cars used in Money Train do indeed appear to be R-27/30s. Since the movie came out after the Redbird R-30s were retired, my guess is that the producers successfully bid on a number of these cars. None of the scenes in which they appear were actually filmed in the subway; a 4000-foot long subway set was built for that purpose, complete with three or four local stations. The only bona fide subway stations in the film are Union Square (disguised as Wall St.) and 33rd St. I'm surprised they didn't use Hoyt-Schermerhorn.
The actual modified IRT R-22/26(?) customized by the Coney shops as the "Money Train" was infact on display at the Transit Museum only briefly because of the coincidental timing of a token booth torching incident.
If I recall correctly, the token booth clerk was badly burned by a bunch of malcontents. Because "Money Train" was currently in theatres at the time the usual political reactions resulted in the movie getting blamed for giving the delinquents there torching "idea". Oddly, it was revealed later during court testimony, that in fact the youths never even saw the movie! However, because the movie had scenes of token booth torchings -- in the public's mind -- "Money Train" was "guilty" and anything associated with the movie got slamed. In this regard, the Transit Museum pulled the "Money Train" car from it's exhibit almost immediately after the torching incident.
I last saw the car it sitting outside in the CI yards among some maintenance equipment. I wonder if NYCT will ever reinstall it into the TA exhibit, or just auction it off at some point?
"If I recall correctly, the token booth clerk was badly burned by a bunch of malcontents. Because "Money Train" was currently in theatres at the time the usual political reactions resulted in the movie getting blamed for giving the delinquents there torching 'idea'. Oddly, it was revealed later during court testimony, that in fact the youths never even saw the movie!"
And moreover, if I recall correctly, the movie included the torching scene because a similar torching of a token booth had occurred in real life months or even years before the movie script was written. In other words, life didn't imitate art because the "art" itself (and I use that term very loosely in reference to "Money Train") was just an imitation of life!
Incidentally, I believe that it was the earlier, pre-movie, torching that resulted in the installation of smoke detectors in all token booths, which *then* resulted in many nicotine-addicted token vendors bringing cups to work to place over the detector so they could smoke in their booth!
That torching that you refered to occured more than once, most notably at the Intervale Ave stop on the 2/5, where the result was the complete destruction of the station facilities. Other stations where this has occured, aside from the incident that was connected to the movie, were at the Halsey St station on the J and the Halsey St station on the L.
-Hank
i remember those r10 cars well no p.a. system and the conducter had to be in pretty decent shape to climb in between the car to open and close the passenger doors.. dont know if its in the job description now a days....
I think towards the end of their lives they tried to retrofit the R10 with PA systems. I remember seeing these little square boxes on the car ceilings (in the crown portion). They didn't always work. I often wondered whether the operator announced the stations or the conductor did it from his perch. Maybe Mr.Padron or someone else knowledgeable about the finer points of R10-ology could answer this.
Wayne
The PA box was inside the motormans cab. Since it is the conductors' job to make station announcements, all announcements had to be made while the train was in motion. As noisy as the R10's were, even if the PA was working, announcements would be difficult to hear.
I thought I remember seeing the conductor go into the motorman's cab to make announcements. And I noticed that the cab near the conductors' position was usually open.
The r-10 had PA's as early as the early 80's at the very least. The conductors made their announcements while the train was in motion like if you could hear the announcements over that loud noise.
I don't think you'll find agility in the job description nowadays. The R-10s were the last cars to be equipped with air-operated doors, which are now a thing of the past. I used to enjoy watching the conductors work the trigger boxes, though.
Theres talk at Van Courtlandt Park of spit service next weekend.
Some No. 1 crews are going to Lenox Term. Whats going on?
I can't find out nothing!
There is a major weekend GO coming for Feb 13-14. #1 will be shut down from 96-137.
Does R-38s run on the E, F, G and R lines?
"Hey Joseph why don't u check www.nycsubway.org and go to Illustrated Subway Cars Roster so u can find out yourself. I took a R27/30 when i was a young kid and R27/30 run on M,BB,QJ,NX,QB in the early 60s to 70s."
As MANY people have already told you, check out the rest of this site.
You are starting to get on everybody's nerves, so take the advice of many. This site has much information, it's not just SubTalk.
no they do not.the R-38s operate on the A and C lines and are maintained by the 207th street shops in uptown manhattan.the R-32s operate on the E,G and R lines.they do not operate on the F line.R-32s that are maintained by the Pitkin shops are sometimes mixed with the R-38s on the A and C lines.hope this helps...
The R-38s were originally assigned to the E and F lines when they first appeared in 1966. They did see service on the predecessors of both the G and R; namely, the GG and RR.
Today, they hold down the fort on the A and C lines.
Tonight I actually rode on a mixed consist of 6 R-38's and 4 R-32's on the uptown 'A' train.
Were they the R32-GE or just everyday R32 I wonder...You can tell the R32-GE right away, they look exactly like R38 inside (backlit advertising signs, curly bars etc.)
I have seen mixed everyday R32 with R38 on the "C" but only R32-GE and R38 on the "A".
Wayne
I've seen real R-32 with R-38 on the A before. Infact, I rode in a total R-32 A around October, 1998.
I've seen an A trsin of R-38's with a pair of R-32 MK mixed in.
And I rode on an A train last October with a reversed consist: 8 R-32s plus a pair of R-38s.
And we saw R32-GE #3936-3937 stuck in the middle of a bunch of R38s on the "A" today. These eight oddbals are gypsies, for sure.
Wayne
Yes, I have seen full-consist MK R32's on the "A" - at least four different trains of them. We'll see even more once they beef up "A" service this spring. There are only eight R32-GE in revenue service - two of them are up at 207th Street where they are serving out their years as parts cars.
Wayne
If anyone out there happens to have the new webpage address for The New Electric Railway Magazine, please post it on subtalk.
I greatly appreciate it.
Sincerely,
MIchael
As far as I know both the Magazine and website may be defunct. The editor, Richard Kunz passed away suddenly on November 6. A subsequent e-mail from one of the staffers stated that a search was being made for a new editor. The website was active until January, I have sent a letter to CityRail, Ltd in late January, but no reply has been received to date. The general scuttlebutt seems to be that we have seen our last issue of TNERJ. I hope not, the loss would be great.
Unfortunately, the magazine has been "on the proverbial shoestring" since the Free Congress Foundation cut it loose. Without Richard's hand on the controller, I fear the worst.
I received my latest issue - issue 38 - within the last week or so, so I suspect that (to paraphrase Mark Twain) reports of their death are greatly exaggerated. Haven't had a chance to even open the cover, though, so maybe there's more information inside. I'll look tonight and respond tomorrow if there's anything significant to report.
My understanding is that with the passing of the publisher Richard Kunz, The New Electric Railway Journal (TNERJ) and its electronic edition are no more.
Julian Wolinsky, who had been one of TNERJ's main contributors, is spinning up a new on-line rail zine. Info is available from:
JW Media Consultants
9903 Santa Monica Blvd.
Suite 417
Beverly Hills, CA 90212
jwolinsky@mediaone.net
I would like you to please post on the subtalk the future express bus readings for X21,X22 & X23 with this type of format, here's an example:
X15:ELTINGVILLE
RICHMOND AV
via AR KILL RD
Please be advised that I don't give out my e-mail address.
Sincerely,
John
<>
Whats' up with these routes?
They don't exist, and according to the TA, aren't even planned. The Staten Island Advance ran an article last Wednesday or Thursday about it. The chastize Boro President Molinari for supporting franchise opererations on SI rather than expansion of TA service. And John, if you don't give out your email address, no one can send you what you want.
-Hank
I took a Conductor test 6 years ago and i never got a letter that i pass the test. So any way is there will be a conductor test coming up?
How come the www.nycsubway.org doesn't have the subway yards map of 240st yard #1, Canarsie yard "L", Corona Yard #7, Unionport Yard #5, Lenox yard #3, Livonia Yard #3 and #4, and Pitkin Yard "A" and "C"?
I know this site has quite a few yard maps. But is you can't find what you are looking for I would suggest getting a copy of Peter Doughertys "TRACKS OF THE NYC SUBWAY' 2nd edition. In the rear of this fine publication are all the yard maps for the system. If there is enough interest Peter says he would publish a separate yard maps book. You can access his web site through here.
Thanks for the kind words, Ron; greatly appreciated. Just FYI, the yard maps there are accurate as of about a year ago; if you know of any discrepancies, I'd really like to know.
Cheers,
Peter Dougherty
Publisher
Tracks of the New York City Subway book
Posted by R62 LILMAN on Sat Feb 6 22:53:19 1999
[quote]
How come the www.nycsubway.org doesn't have the subway yards map of 240st yard #1, Canarsie yard "L", Corona Yard
#7, Unionport Yard #5, Lenox yard #3, Livonia Yard #3 and #4, and Pitkin Yard "A" and "C"?
[unquote]
Because, at the time I was posting the old yard maps two years ago I didn't *have* those ones to post.
I only received good, accurate and printable maps within the last six months, and they are now all printed in my book (check out the URL below). *IF* I get time, I'll post these to the web within the next few weeks. The ones on the web site now are about 25 years old, and obviously a bit out of date , but they will at least give you a good idea of how the yard's laid out.
Cheers,
Peter Dougherty
Publisher
Tracks of the New York City Subway book
Hey Peter I am enjoy reading your "Revised Edition of Tracks of the New York City subway. I bought the book last year and the book is really great because I been a subway fan since 4 years old and would love to collect every subway cars & layout. Soon i will buy your Second Edition with Subway Yards Map. Well im crazy about subway cars and in the future hope to work with MTA. I been thinking about taking picture of subway cars and collect them into wedsite or book in the future.
To R62A
Please, by all means, pick up a copy of the 2nd Edition. If you loved the revised, you'll go nuts over this one. They're not yet in wide circulation, but if you want a 2nd Ed. now, just click on the link/image below and go from there.
Cheers,
Peter Dougherty
Publisher
Tracks of the New York City Subway book
I have recently purchased a copy of Peter Dougherty's "Tracks of the New York City Subway" and find it very complete, including extensive maps of each of the system's storage yards, particularly those which you list.
I too was particularly interested in the Corona yard for the Flushing #7 line. Even though I lived only a few blocks from the site, I never got the chance to tour the facilities. "Tracks" shows the facility to be much more extensive than I ever knew.
Mr. Dougherty has done a commendable job of explaining the NYCTA to those of us who rode the lines every day but never paid much attention to how they worked or what their history was.
Posted by Richard Kepko on Sun Feb 7
[quote]
Mr. Dougherty has done a commendable job of explaining the NYCTA to those of us who rode the lines every day but never
paid much attention to how they worked or what their history was.
[unquote]
Richard, your cheque's in the mail .
Cheers,
Peter Dougherty
Publisher
Tracks of the New York City Subway book
I also wish to commend Peter Dougherty on an excellent second edition of his Tracks of the New York City Subway. I also have his previous tracks books. I also like the system's storage yards. I also particularly like the #4 yards and the D trains yards since i am a ten minute walk away from these two yards.
Keep up the good work Pete and much continued success in future books of the Tracks of the New York City Subway.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Posted by Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
I also wish to commend Peter Dougherty on an excellent second edition.
Charlie, your cheque is also in the mail .
Thanks for the kind words.
Cheers,
Peter Dougherty
Publisher
Tracks of the New York City Subway book
Hey Dave:
Do you get a fee for all this great advestising! (Pay those ISP bills) :)
Haven't seen the latest edition of the book yet but what I've seen - I like!
Can anyone advise ...
How and where I can obtain an NYCTA subway conductor's blue hat
(size 7 3/8) and a jacket?
Thanks,
J. L.
Become a subway conductor!
Going southbound on the #1 train (local track) at 42St there is a signal labeled WD? Its all by itself and low to the track. What does it stand for? Also, the other day we took a diversion at 42St onto the express track and this signal was flashing green as the operator diverted onto the express track.
WD stands for Wheel Detector. It is an enforced speed control for trains approaching a diverging route. When the tracks are set for a diverging route, the Wheel Detector insures that the train enters the switch an the proper speed. When set for the 'normal' route, the WD is not illuminated.
There is an excellent piece on these signals on the MTA BBS. There is a link on this site. If you do not have word, Microsoft has a downloadable MS word viewer. There is also a powerpoint and excel viewer to download.
If you have Microsoft works the works homesite also has an enhancement that will let you read word files from within works.
Most WD(Wheel Detector) signals flash a very bright white light. Are you sure the one you saw was flashing green?
Yes it was green and since I ride the #1 every Thursday and Friday it appears that the signal is a new one. Only several weeks ago it was wrapped in plastic and all the structure surrounding it looks pretty new. You can see it from the platform southern edge local side. Are these signals being installed in new locations due to the Union Square crash?
There being installed to control the speed of trains while crossing switches. From the setups I have seen I don't think wheel detectors would have helped at union square. I could be wrong, but it looks as though the trip device is at most 50 feet from the switch. It does not appear that the WD is used to control the speed of trains appraching the switch, but while crossing the switch. If I'm wrong someone please clarify this.
I have yet to see the Wheel Detector in operation but my understanding of its' operation is that it mandates sequencial speed reductions an each of several signals. If the train is exceeding the posted speed at any of the intermediate points, the train will be tripped. Any of our signal people able to confirm this?
All I can say is that before I left the No. 6 Line. They put up the wheel detectors up at Parkchestor. The posted speed was 15 MPH. Most of the trains triped going over 10 MPH. So i just went 5 MPH TO BE SAFE. Besides the light was blinking witch tells me to slow down. Ofcause I was bound for Pelham Bay and this did back up the Parchestor relays. I found out alot of other motorman were going 5 MPH so then they tryed puting motor Instructor there to speed up the process by telling us if we trip just charge up and go. Witch i beleve is a violation of the rule book because what if I triped by no foult of the WD. Then i'm in trouble.
Also he told me also not to call Control Center if i triped?
So i beleve he gave me an invaid order.
Some Motor Instructor who says: Trip, Charge, & Go! LOL. He has no business being a Motor Instructor! Plus, according to the wheel detector memo of operation, if a motoman goes BIE due to a WD activation, the tower has to activate a lever/button to drive the stop arm down. So if you "Trip, Charge & Go", you will get tripped again. The safest way to navigate a wheel detector is, as you say, 5 MPH. If EVERYBODY does it that way, what can the TA do in the way of penalizing the motormen?
Your not the first one to say that Motor Instructor shouldn't be in that position and probably not the last.
When I was on the road, back in the 80s, the Motor Instructors Had to know the equipment . When a train layed down, they could usually move it. Today the title is not the only thing that has changed. A very large number of TSSs do not know the equipment, can not sectionalize a train when necessary (especially R-44/R-46), and some can't even cut out a door properly. It's a shame that the focus on the TSS job has changed. Unfortunately, the RCI job has also changed. The bottom line is trains laying longer for relatively simple problems........
Yes I know what you mean. Theres only 7 real Motor Instructors I respect on the whole IRT and most work the East Side and only 2 on the west side witch is a real shame. The rest are just TSS.
I am, unlike some of the people posting here, an amateur, not a trainsit employee. But my opion, for what its' worth is that this WD signal system results from excess caution by management, the system seemed to work just fine 90 years without it! From what I can tell (could some transit employees confirm this, please), is that all of this excess caution started after the guy operating the J train over the Williamsburgh Bridge rear-ended the other train after he fell asleep. After that time, an awful lot of GT signals began appearing all over the place (ex: no. 1 line between Dyckman & 207th, between 168th and 157th, , no 4/5 uptown between 33rd and Grand Central), and also, these WDs. I have noticed that WDs with 10 or 15 mile signs exist even in relatively fast sections, but are usually not active. Could someone give me a run-down on when they get used (maybe workmen in the tunnel?), and what falshing vs. steady indicates?
OK good questions. First this Idea with Wheel Detectors started with the Result of Robert Ray at 14 ST on the No.4 train but didn't start putting them in place after the Williamsburg Bridge Incident. OK flashing and steady white WD signal.
Flashing tells you to Slowdown and if you don't you trip.
Steady tells you your ok and going the right speed
The idea is for the WD be set up for diverging routes only. Contradiction: Bergen St. You have to come in under WD control for straight track. Leaving the station, the F will diverge and curiously enough, they end before the whole train gets onto the lower level track. It defeats the purpose. Probably, they are always on at Bergen St. because it is a steep grade coming in to the station and the TA fears that if a motorman comes in too fast, not only would he run the station stop marker, but also run the interlocking signal & switch.
Wheel detection and additional grade time areas didn't come to be soley because of 14th street union sq 1991 or the Williamsburg bridge incidents. several incidents in addition to the above mentioned signalled the need to control traain speeds. Wheel detection was truly borne out of Robert Ray wrapping a number 4 train around several columns while diverging from #2 track onto #1 track at an excessive speed probably 45-50 mph. Several signals if not one in approach to the home signal SHOULD have been at yellow and the home signal at danger or if not set for a diverging move. Since the derailment a home signal is to set at danger its approach at yellow until the train has come to a stop or where the tower observes the train is at a safe enough speed to crossover. NO KEY by has been introduced to manually key by a red Automatic. train will be brought onto the IJ to complete circuit but the operator must now step on the trip arm and retain in the clear position for train to pass without dumping its air(of course permission from control desk superintendent unless an AK is on the signal)
This particular signal is first seen when entering the 42St about 25 feet into the station, then again at the most southern part of the station upon leaving. When my T/O diverge onto the express tracks about 12 car lengths into the express section there was a little sign that said END WD at which point the T/O increased speed into the 34St station.
If the purpose of the wheel detector is to control speed on approach of a diverging route, Then I wonder why they chose this eloborate measure. I would think it would be much simpler to install timed signals upon approach of a switch. Which would become active when the diverging route was given.
They already use a similar type of signal to allow trains to move up close to the train ahead. (At the moment I can not remember the name of this type of signal) On the 4&5 line southbound between Fulton St. and Bowling Green, if there is no train ahead = all clear signals. If there is a train ahead the signals will be at danger, but they become timed signals and as long as you approach at the right speed they will clear allowing you to get very close to the train in front.
You have to keep in mind that with either one shot or two shot grade time signals it is possible for a Motorman to rap his controller around to full multiple as he cleared the GT signal. If this happens, then the train will accelerate above the GT speed. To achieve enough control to maintain GT speed within reasonable limits without causing overspeed over a crossover then GT signals would have to spaced very close together, in the order of 50 feet. This is impractical considering track relay drop away time and relay pick times. Furthermore, it would not achieve proper speed control.
The Wheel Detector is a hybrid of Cab Signaling and Block Signaling. two sets of wheel detector heads are used to measure train speed via a vital microprocessor. If the train operates within the prescribed limits then it will not be tripped. However, if the train overspeeds greatly above the limits it will be tripped by the train stop (even if the front of the train has passed the train. The Motorman is advised of his speed by the aspect on the WD signal with a lunar white or flashing aspect. This offers continuous speed control unlike like GT signaling will do. The wheel detector came about because of the Union Square wreck of August of 1991.
The WD signals were a reaction to Union Sq, but as someone else
pointed out earlier, they don't solve that exact problem. Isn't the
wheel speed detector right near the points? In the Union Sq case,
the train was believe to have been tripped, but the tripping point
was at the home ball. This was using "DT" timing..i.e. a GT that
is only active on diverging moves...or maybe it was single-shot
diverging timers. Either way, to have afforded full protection,
the approach signal would have to be at least one full speed's
stopping distance in advance of the switch and be set to clear
on time for diverging moves, same thing for the home ball.
I believe this modification was made as well, but in the
process folks realized that there was another "hole" in that
the m/m could clear the DT and wrap it up and still accelerate to
dangerous speeds through the turnout. Thus the big WD. Motormen
hate them because they can never be certain about when they will
trip, and even though everything is supposed to be carefully
calibrated, they report false trips when they believed they were
complying with the speed restrictions. So they've gotten edgy and
will go dead slow even through a WD-10. Now, what we need is some
high-speed turnouts so we can have WD-40 signals :)
Those WD Signals are an absolute waste!!! the wheel detector at pacific street is the worst! being a Queens Extra List motorman i have occasion to cross over at this location on those rare
times i work the N line.even if you proceed thru this area at the posted 10 miles an hour,those stupid white lights start flashing! solution? either take your chances and operate at 10 mph,or operate dead slow.i just crawl into Pacific Street at 5 mph;point on and point off operation.these wheel detectors just slow the railroad down! lunar white time signals placed in the RIGHT locations would have accomplished the same thing! the WD signals placed at Canal Street on the A and C lines are in place but not operational as of this writing.the WD signal at 4th avenue on the F and G lines is also not used.(i believe that this is for when and if F trains begin operating express in Brooklyn once again)this is so F trains can cross over to make the station stop at Bergen Street because there is no lower level.
Amen brother! Slow the trains down, don't go in emergency and put in for the gravy we need to pay the mortgages. (I wanna be an OPTO man)
I'm not there is see the flashing WD signals however, if the programming needs correction to allow for smooth 10mph operation that Blaise Archis of the NYCT needs to give it attention. There is a several mph margin in the wheel detector system.
I posted a message a while back on this subject and grade time signals will NOT solve the overspeeding problems. NYCT does not want to have another Union Square wreck like the one in August of 1991.
sigh...i have an idea for the wheel detector system...rip them out and start over!!! THEY DONT WORK!!! all these things do is make the trains run slower...the WDs at Bergen Street are a total waste!!! and why do the G trains have to enter Bergen Street on the WD anyway? the G train does not cross over there...so why slow down a train that gets a straight lineup? like i said all it does is slow the trains down.leaving Bergen Street i could see having a WD,but not all the way back south of the station.
That WD signal was defenitly not flashing green. I work on the No.1 line. You may have just seen a green signal with the WD not activated.
Because as fur as I know all WD signals flash White. Also I don't even
think it activated yet at Times Square.
Friday there was an emergency on the line and many trains were being turned around at 34St. The signal was flashing when the operator diverted from the local southbound tracks to the express tracks. Whether the signal is white or green is not important but I always ride the first car and it was flashing.
Does anyone know if there was ever a book on the making of our beloved subway cars?
If not, I'd think that with the varied number of types that were built primarily by St. Louis Car, that a tome on their product would certainly be in order.
Short of like a "Making of a subway car" book.
Any thoughts?
Doug aka BMTman
<< Does anyone know if there was ever a book on the making of our beloved subway cars? >>
I believe Andrew Young wrote a book about the St. Louis Car Co. I'm pretty sure I lent my copy to a friend otherwise I'd give you the title and ISBN number.
1. From Horsecars to Streamliners: An Illustrated History of the St. Louis Car Company. By Alan R. Lind. Published 1978 by Transport History Press, Box 201, Park Forest IL 60466.
2. The History of the St. Louis Car Company. By Andrew D. Young and Eugene F. Provenzo, Jr. Published 1978 by Howell-North Books, BO Box 3051, La Jolla CA 92038.
Good luck!
David
The first book you mention, I believe, has a photo of an R-21 or R-22 heading up a 1 train on the front jacket. It has a fairly sizable section on New York's subway cars, which is not surprising when you consider how many cars they built for New York! That book may be out of print now.
St. Louis Car was NYCTA's main provider of rolling stock during the period I consider the "Golden Age" of subway car introductions in my lifetime, 1957-69. The Redbirds, the R-38s and Slant 40s all have their own perosnalities, and are easily distinguishable.
Unfortunately, they also have to take responsibility for the R-44s, which I've suggested should be run on the Eastern Division just to see them fall onto the Williamsburgh Bridge Plaza (If nothing else, this should be done sometime in the future when they have the "Farewell to the R-44s" railfan trip).
I have another idea: do yet another remake of Pelham 1-2-3, this time as a comedy, and use R-44s. When Ryder, or Mr. Blue, approaches the operator and says, "I'm taking your train", the operator replies, "Be my guest. Have fun." Then, when the hijackers demand a ransom, have the desk trainmaster reply, "Screw it - you can keep that whole train. Hell, we'll even throw in the entire fleet of those cars. And if we still had any R-16s left, you could have them, too."
I know, R-44s can't run on the IRT. I also know someone out there is quoting Walter Matthau right now when he said, "You're a sick man, Rico."
These books are available online at www.barnesandnoble.com in their "out of print" section. Hurrah!
1. From Horsecars to Streamliners: An Illustrated History of the St. Louis Car Company. By Alan
R. Lind. Published 1978 by Transport History Press, Box 201, Park Forest IL 60466.
2. The History of the St. Louis Car Company. By Andrew D. Young and Eugene F. Provenzo, Jr.
Published 1978 by Howell-North Books, BO Box 3051, La Jolla CA 92038.
These are available online at www.barnesandnoble.com in their out of print section.
Sorry for the previous post which left out their titles.
"From Horsecars to Streamliners: An Illustrated History of the St. Louis Car Company. By Alan R. Lind. Published 1978 by Transport History Press, Box 201, Park Forest IL 60466."
I thought I saw a pile of this book at the bookstore at the Illinois Railway Museum the last time I was there. Maybe you should check them out at www.irm.org (I don't know their e-mail address, but I'm sure it's on the Web page somewhere) and find out if they have it.
Better yet, if you're ever in the Chicago area, head on out to the Museum. It's about an hour ride from the city, and it's closed in the winter, but it's definitely worth the trip.
Is it just me, or does there seem to be an increase in repetitive posts asking questions (in poor grammer) that were answered in the same thread the day before? Or how about the increase in posts asking questions that are easily answered just by looking around the website? It's getting to be mind numbing to read 12-13 posts where the same question gets repeatedly repeated....
-Hank
Agreed. There seems to be a person, not to mention any names, that posts little facts, like "the r-40 slants run on the N and R lines" and that will be the whole post. Well that is nice info, but for those who don't know already, they can go to the site and find out. Is it me or is this guy (you probably know who I'm talking about) getting very annoying in the types of messages that he posts?
I posted that I think that this person is a kid. If he isn't, then I suspect he's "one of those......" Dave and several others have gently hinted that all of the comments/questions are answerable elsewhere on the site. No result/comprehension. Best advice: Ignore the posts. Don't reply. I we all do that, maybe he will go away. (Doubtful, but we can try).
I've asked DUMB questions here before, so I guess this may help our "wayward friend"
-A single post to this person(I won't name names but any regular certainly knows who this is) telling them that this is a LARGE site compared to others on the same topic, in fact probably the biggest and certainly the best.
-Though this person could do this themselves, based on the types of posts they put up, mention a particular area of this site they may find useful i.e. Subway Car Roster, Subway FAQ's, etc
-And finally, if they must ask 60 questions about the same topic(when and if they discuss one)to put it all in ONE OR TWO POSTS instead of the, um, multitudinous posts with entire scrolls having this person's name 20 or 25 times.
Perhaps we should also recognize that this person maybe a new railfan and at least help him out a bit.
If all concerned put a little forward, we could all move ahead with a less cluttered message board and one more railfan.
Like they say in the court dramas "Asked and answered". That's been tried in earlier post replies. Zip results. I think he's "one of those...." so gentle hints don't work. Maybe he'll mature (or find some other venue to bother), but that's doubtful.
We've had to deal with this type at BSM, and the results were as described except that he won't go away (the visits ARE getting farther apart) and he bugs the other transit provider almost as much.
Maybe this has been answered, and I apologize if this is repetitive but I didn't see any posting on it: where will L, M, J and Z trains receive maintainance when the WillyB shuts down? Can they get all the maintenance they need where they directly connect to yards? Or will the severed link via Nassau St. to the Coney Island prevent certain kinds of maintenance?
Mike Rothenberg
Most can probably be done right at ENY. If cars ever need to be done in Coney Island or somewhere, they can be hauled through the Linden yard, and over the LIRR Bar Ridge branch to the BMT Southern div. This is what was done 11 years ago when the bridge was closed.
Not only that, but ENYD shops have since been rebuilt, and functions not being able to be done there 11 years ago can be performed there today.
Eric B: if and when you here that cars are going to be moved over the Bay Ridge LIRR tracks -- please by all means alert all concerned as this would be an excellent photo op along that right-of-way.
Thanks, Doug aka BMTman
HEY!! they are taking down the last 3rd ave station. This week walking to the Gunhill Rd station I notice worker on the old 3rd ave platform breaking up the wooded platform and breaking up the waiting rooms. By next week it will be all gone.(Spoke to a worker) Also they seal up the stair going from the street level to the 3rd ave platform and look like they may do the same for the upper Mezz area.
This was Notice on friday, time @500
Life will not be the same. This is wher my Old man took me for my first subway ride when I was 5 years old.(Been hooked like a crack head from that day on) seam like yesterday. I'm now 36
(Yes I'm shouting)
Jr: It funny that you should mention that. I took(or rather taken) on my first ride at 149 St on the southbound.
Best Wishes,Redbird
HEY!! they are taking down the last 3rd ave station. This week walking to the Gunhill Rd station I notice worker on the old 3rd ave platform breaking up the wooded platform and breaking up the waiting rooms. By next week it will be all gone.(Spoke to a worker) Also they seal up the stair going from the street level to the 3rd ave platform and look like they may do the same for the upper Mezz area.
This was Notice on friday, time @500
Life will not be the same. This is wher my Old man took me for my first subway ride when I was 5 years old.(Been hooked like a crack head from that day on) seam like yesterday. I'm now 36
HURRY GET YOUR LAST PICTURES (Yes I'm shouting)
they are tearing it up and no one arranged for us railfans to go in there beforehand. This is an outrage.
The Federal Transit Administration TEA-21 NEW Start Project Authorizations (see http://www.fta.dot.gov/library/policy/t21nsta.htm , http://www.istea.org/guide/tea21/3030.html , or http://www.apta.com/govt/legis/tea21/t21nsear.htm)
lists under the status of "Authorized for Final Design and Construction" a project for "8th Avenue Subway Connector". Can anybody describe what this project really represents (such as Fulton Street local to WTC local track connection, which is what it I think it is) and where can one find more details on this project?
That hardly seems likely. There is about zero chance of the WTC/Court St. connection being built. I'm not even sure that was the original plan, I think the tunnel from Court St. was to come in north of Chambers St. station. At any rate, they surely will not tear up the basement of the WTC and its shops to run a new subway line through it.
The "connector" could be anything. Probably just a redesigned transfer passage, either at 14th St. to the 'L' or, more likely, at 34th St. to Penn Station.
The stub at Court St. was supposed to be a lead-in for the 2nd Ave. line, with a connection to the dead-end local tracks at WTC, with a stop at South Ferry to boot. It makes one wonder just how valid such a plan would have been. For one thing, the BMT Broadway line cuts right in front of the IND where it suddenly veers over to Trinity Place, and it was already in place when the IND was being built. Of course, back then, the WTC didn't exist. Those WTC tracks would either have to nosedive to dodge the existing IRT and BMT lines, or swerve over and duck beneath the 1/9 line. Besides, as was already mentioned, they'd have to tear up the plaza at the WTC itself, and any station at South Ferry would have to be fairly deep, the way Whitehall St. is.
It might very well be more trouble than it's worth.
What about the proposal for a Eight Avenue Local connection using the original Second System Worth Street provision? (Actually that was what I was thinking about when I composed the original question).
Anyhow with the lack of response to that question, must I assume that none of the SubTalk reader regulars truly knows anything about the Eighth Avenue Subway Connector proposal that is listed amongst some rather big ticket projects in the TEA-21?
The information on the three addresses you listed seemed to all say the same thing.
If it's really that big someone either knows and hasn't responded or is trying to get more information.
I'll keep looking myself....
The recent RPA Metrolink proposal, as published, does contain at least two subway sections that should be very difficult to engineer and build, namely, the Water Street Subway near Whitehall Street and the Atlantic Avenue connection to the existing LIRR near Flatbush Avenue. The Water Street routing requires either very deep tunneling to pass under all of the many existing subway tunnels, or else threading through the maze of tunnels. The Atlantic Avenue connection will require underpinning three different levels of subway (4th Ave IRT trackway [not used], 4 Ave BMT, IRT Flatbush Avenue, and the BMT Brighton line) or else proceeding in a very deep tunnel that will probably require a fairly steep grade to get back up to existing LIRR tracks in the line west of Vanderbilt avenue. I think the 1940-ish Engineering News Record listed the Sixth Avenue subway near 32-33rd street as essentially the most difficult railroading construction ever undertaken on the planet, which is my candidate for the most difficult. What do the subway engineering aficionados have as are other candidate for the title of "Most Difficult Subway Engineering on Earth"?
The construction of the Jubilee Line in London probably is the most difficult job insofar as winding through existing lines and other obstructions. The Athens Metro, now somewhat completed, had similar problems, although the obstructions were unknown artifacts, and existing historic structures had to be both supported and strengthened to withstand vibrations from operating trains. The Los Angeles subway is perhaps also up there in complexity, especially given the high earthquake standards that must be met.
I don't know if this ranks as the most difficult, but certainly sounds like it is one of the more challenging ones: Washington DC Metro's Green Line link between the two existing segments had to dodge an underground river and then tunnel beneath a cemetery. They wound up placing the two tubes one atop the other. If the Washington Post article can be believed (a transcript of it was forwarded to me), the section beneath the Rock Creek Cemetery is 800 feet deep. I wonder if this is not a typo. I never heard of a subway going THIS far down.
If anyone wishes to read the transcript that was forwarded to me, post here or e-mail me and I'll forward it.
Wayne
I though the deepest station on the Metro was only about 250 feet. An 800 foot depth would require a heck of a grade uphill and downhill between stations, and while Rock Creek is a pretty deep gulley (I would guess the cemetary is nearby) I don't remember it being 70 stories deep.
Whoever sent you the transcript probably should have sent the Post's correction notices from the next day's paper.
Yes, agreed. I am taking this depth report with more than a grain (make that a shaker) of salt. I can not in my wildest dreams picture a subway tunnel being 800 feet underground. The cemetery is actually east of the Creek itself, bounded by (clockwise from north) Gallatin Street NW, North Capitol Street, Rock Creek Church Road NW, a property boundary running northwest, and New Hampshire Avenue NW (it has five sides). If you look down the tunnel from the underground end of the Fort Totten station, you can see it drop away pretty quickly. It doesn't look like more than a 10-degree or 15-degree grade. According to my map, the line looks like it could cut across the north end of the cemetery before it curves southwest into New Hampshire Ave NW, if you draw a straight line from Fort Totten. Georgia Ave-Petworth will be at the intersection of NH and GA ave's NW and then there will be a little reverse curve, first right under Park Road then hard left going down 14th. Columbia Heights station s/b about Columbia Road or Irving Street or between the two.
I will be down in DC later this year to investigate this.
Wayne
Boston's original Tremont St. Subway between Park and Government makes for an interesting ride as you manouver around the foundations of several buildings and two cemetaries. For a 'simple' cut and cover job, this section required some engineering effort. There are about 7 curves in five blocks!
The construction of the Stockholm Underground met with a not so few difficulties due to the geography and history of the Stockholm region. Stockholm is situated across a inlet region from the Baltic Sea to Lake Mälaren, spread out along lots of islands, mountain ridges and what once was marshland.
When constructing the 4-track tunnel between the stations of Gamla Stan (the old town) and T-Centralen (Central Station), the tunnel was driven through a huge layer of silt and spoft clay, as well as a medieval rubbish-dump. The solution adopted was to deep-freeze (!) Tegelbacken (the silty region, a downtown area with lots of government offices) by pumping a saline cold-medium in pipes through the ground. When it was frozen solid, foundations could be poured and the tunnel stabilized.
From the late 60:ies and onwards, the cut-and-cover method was replaced with deep rock construction. The Stockholm region rests on some extremely solid rock, and tunneling through this solved most of the messy problems associated with clay and silt. Almost all newer parts are made of deep rock tunnel.
My favorite line is the No.5 line. Because of all the Diffrent Termanals it goes to. In the Bronx you can be sent to Dyre Ave or
E 238 St. where you lay your train up. In Manhattan you go to Bowling Green or may get turned at Brooklyn Bridge and look at the old city hall station. In Brooklyn you can go to Flatbush,Utica,or New Lots. Not to mention you may be rerouted down the Bway-7 Ave line. Now if you have that run where you go Light to Bowling Green and then go
in service Uptown to E 238 ST Then who knows. One day I was put in service at Grand Central and told to make all stops to Bowling Green.
When I got to Bowling Green the Dispatcher told me to go in service at South Ferry. Then made all local stops to 96 ST. Then made all stops to E 241 St.
Inconsistent service patterns to confuse the customers!
Yes you can be very confused rideing the No. 5 Line during Rush Hours.
my favorite and still is the B line(west end) i grew up near the ninth ave sta. in bklyn and always remembered that busy sta. with the culver suttle in operation and the busy 36st yards in the backdrop ..
Yes, but at least our beloved Redbirds still have route AND destination signs up front, (and most 5 trains are made up of Redbirds) so you'll know where the train is headed at a glance - providing it's been properly signed up.
I didn't realize that 5 trains were turned around at Brooklyn Bridge on occasion, but I'll believe it. Just think - the operator gets a view of City Hall station out of it! Cool!
As for my favorite line, that's easy. It's the one immortalized by Duke Ellington, the A line. Thanks to the express dash up CPW, it's still the quickest way to get to Harlem - if your train consists of R-38s. I miss the R-10s, though.
My favorite line is the L.
Do you think they should use the #10 to designate the rush hour #5 train? I have seen #10 signs on R62A equipment, though only between the cars. Perhaps if one sees #10 they wouldn't confuse it with the rush hour #5 express. Ditto for the Pelham diamond #6 - they could use #8, which they also have as a green sign.
Wayne
There has been talk on the Pelham Line to put up No. 8 Signs to
represent the No. 6 Parkchester Local service. But that was talked about long a go but still no No. 8. To do that they have to make Parkchester an all R 62 fleet AND THE Redbirds to Pelham. Ofcouse the No.6 Line supervision probably won't like the idea because the people in the Pelham area will complain about not having an R 62 to ride to Pelham with. About limiting confusing it probably won't work. The riders think the 6 Diamand is a Lexington Exp but get a wake up call when we stop at canal St.
The No. 10 sign on the 5 line. That may be a good sign to use on the New Lots or Utica bound trains. But theres only 8 trains to and from New Lots but it worth a try exept for one Problem. The No. 5 runs redbirds and there is no No. 10 Signs on them. So that will have to wait for the new trains if the TA really did consider that. But right now I am going to enjoy the redbirds.
I think it would be a good idea to designate the 241 St #5's as something else;say #8,also the 42 St Shuttle should be #10. It is confusing to have four routes on the system with the same "S" designation. 42 St, 63 St, Rockaway Park, and Franklin. I know the Franklin is temporarily suspended and the 63 St Shuttle is supposed to end in the spring. The Rockaway Shuttle should use its proper sign"H".
Redbird
Perhaps they should use #0 for the 42nd Street shuttle.
I'm thinking they have #8 reserved for what's now the diamond #6.
Say, have you seen the Purple #11 signs (diamond) yet - I have seen one (on the end of car #1677) and there's also #12 and #13 (they're red for 7th Avenue)
And YES YES YES bring back the "H". And run it to Euclid like they used to, though that might be difficult with "C" traffic in and out.
Wayne
Why don't they just go back to double letters? :)
Bring Back the QT, QB, QJ, RJ, MJ...
Then you couls call the Franklin Shuttle the FS or, to represent the lines it connects, the QA, or the DA, or even the DC.....
The the Times Square Shuttle could be the TS or the GS.....
-Hank :)
I had thought of using either 0 or 8 for the shuttle. I think on the inhouse identification, it is sometimes referred to as the 8.
When the new cars come, hopefully, they'll retain the digital signs, making new route numbers even easier.
And if they do use digital signs up front, hopefully they will be legible and discernable from a distance!!!
I believe the final design has a standard curtain on the front bulkhead. I hope we won't see an introduction of anything similar to the R32/R38 head sign EVER. Talk about a mistake. Unless they can make the sign colored and as large as the standard sign (and keep the glass in front of it clean) it doesn't work well. In fact, I can't stand those 'standard' matrix signs on the buses, because they never clean the glass, which makes them impossible to see during the day, and because the lamps that light them usually fail, and never get replaced, which makes them impossible to see at night. The new matrix signs, with the LEDs as part of the matrix are much better, and very visible from a distance.
-Hank
Hear, Hear! The head end signs on the R32 are SO BAD I can't tell what letter they carry until the train is on top of me - and THEN, if it happens to be a round letter, I often can't tell if it's a "C", "G", "Q" or something else ("O" I DEFINITELY saw once on a "Q" train; it was #3918). What an exercise in futility. The R38 and R32-GE signs are a little bit better - they are larger and the dots are bigger. It's no sweat telling an "A" from a "C".
Wayne
It would help if they replaced the flourescent front(bottom) lighting with the new individual dot LED lighting used on the new orders of buses. It is so much clearer. While they're at it, they could use multi-colored LED's. I've already sent a letter to Car & Equipment making these suggestions.
Does anyone have a complete listing of present and future signs
Thank you
Steve
Does anybody have or knows of somebody that has photos showing the roof of the R38 Subway cars.
Am looking for photos that show the rivet detail and/or seperate panels that make up the roof.
We are producing the R38 Subway cars in HO Scale and would like to make the most accurate models possible, hence the requirement for the roof info.
Will pay what is necessary to get the photos we need.
As I have responded earlier, I will attempt this feat from the Children's Cathedral at Utica Avenue if I am unable to do it at 59th Street-Columbus Circle. I expect to take these pictures on February 11.
Wayne
Does the #6 line terminate at South Ferry or Bowling Green in the 70s?
Yes, at one time when Lexington Ave trains served South Ferry - The #6 was extended from Bklyn Br-Worth St to South Ferry during the late night hours. Other times it was served by the SS or #5.
How many Work Cars ( Formaly Passergers Subway Cars ) in the yards or on the tracks?
An you know that the new Logo with MTA? I hate the new Logo they have now but i like with M logo and before that was TA. Well i like the M logo not MTA i dislike the new Logo and They should bring the M logo back.
Please speak English. And make a point while you're at it. Thank you.
I
Sorry about my previous post error, but Dave, there are some mutant questions lately. And most of them come from people who fail to post an E Mail address. This suggests to me that some posters are going by different names and answering their own questions. Is there any way for you to do some kind of modification in the system so that a message would not post unless an E Mail address was present?
Forget it. My brain cells are clogged because it's late. They'll just put down phony E Mail addresses.
According to this site, this car is at the Coney Island Yard. I have a picture of it as part of October's Nostalgia Train. Yet, I'm positive I saw it this afternoon on local channel 9's showing of Malcolm X, in the opening scenes set in Boston. Anyone know any details of this car and that movie?
Yup, these cars were painted for the Boston Elevated Railway specifically for the movie. There are photos of them at http://www.nycsubway.org/r30trip/coney.html. I think the scenes were filmed here in NY.
-Dave
Well, the movie was filmed here in NY. All 3 units were done over for the movie. Unfortunately, while the cosmetic makeover was completed, the Triplexes weren't mechanically operable. The man who supervises the maintenance of the Museum Cars was away during that time. There was no time for Spike Lee and company to wait for him to return, so filming went on as planned. As it turns out, the cars were pushed by the South Brooklyn Rwy Diesels N1 and N2 over the Myrtle Av El (M) at Wyckoff Av. Interesting, huh? The last time the SBK diesels pushed and pulled the D Types was on a fan trip back in 1975 over the SBK lines near Bush Terminal.
-Constantine
Of course, an accurate Boston El paint job would be solid olive green, well faded with streaks of rust and no lettering except for the car numbers painted on the windows...
D-Type triplex 6019 was filmed Malcolm X, at Wyckoff Ave and Myrtle Ave on M line. Spike Lee Made those movies in New York not Boston.
Have the MTA is planing to hire more Cleaner for trains and buses??? I been waiting almost 7 years now for Cleaner for MTA.
Please don't ask here. Buy the "Chief", the Civil Service Newspaper with the red printing on the top for info on TA exams. After you take the exam, you can check with the NYC Dept. of Personell as to where they are on the list.
Two Market-Frankford M-4 cars have been wrecked at 69th Street yard.Apparently One train of M-4 cars was being tested for brakes and plowed in to the side of another M-4 set. The Cars sides just peeled away like aluminum foil. I think ADTRANZ probably used a poorer quality of stainless steel.Shoot when the ALMOND JOYS derailed and hit the I beam at 30th Street Station the car body side did not peel away it just ripped open from the force of the I beam cutting through it.
How do you know this? Are these cars only visible from inside the yard?
No a good friend of mine in SEPTA management informed me of the accident and got me in to see it. I was not allowed to take pictures but Im still going to try.
Back in 1986, car 2777 was leaving Coney Island Yard on its' maiden trip when it was broad sided by an errant flat car. By 1993, the car was finally repaired and ready to return to service. It does happen.
Actually, it was 2755, not 2777, that was broadsided.
[Back in 1986, car 2777 was leaving Coney Island Yard on its' maiden trip when it was broad sided by an errant flat car. By 1993, the car was finally repaired and ready to return to service. It does happen.]
David
Absolutely correct
The one set of M-4s that were wrecked was 1031-32. I dont know what the other set was. 1032 side was sheered opened in the center of the car below the window with the corrugated fluting peeled back like aluminum foil. I touched the section that was wrecked and you were able to bend the stainless steel. It appears they used a cheaper grade of stainless steel then around the window area.Now I know how ADTRANZ ws able to reduce the weight of the car, epecially since the first production models were significantly over weight.Ah the low bidder what do you expect.
Has there ever been a serious incident involving an ADTranz product
caused by SHODDY WORKMANSHIP?
What the heck is up with this company?
No serious accidents yet, but LOTS of minor bugs, irritations and what-have you. Look at the M-4's: late, not to spec, oversize, weight and so forth. SEPTA got a state-of the-art signal system for the subway-surface otut of the deal. (Better for AdTranz than contract penalties).
Workmanship?? Ask the guys at 69th Street, the North Avenue Light Rail Shop (Baltimore) and on and on.
I saw #818 in the aftermath of the accident. The EXACT SAME THING happened to our beloved #4260 on August 15, 1994 (except it was a concrete wall rather than steel I-beams).
Are the outsides of the M-4 cars like the DC Metro cars (i.e. brushed aluminum that falls apart at any moderate inpact)?
Speaking of AdTranz - didn't they make the cars for the ICE train that derailed in Germany last year?
(DC Metro cars are made by Rohr and Breda)
Wayne
I thought that side weakness was characteristic of all subway cars. Their ability to withstand frontal impacts is far greater than with side impacts.
Yes, any side impact to any subway car can be a fatal blow. But whether the car suffers merely a serious dent and a bent frame (#3669, #8884, #4260) or is shorn open as described above (#5282, #1437) can mean the difference between injury and death for the passenger.
Wayne
remember that lightweight cars which are cheaper to run by and large also are weaker. So its a constant game of trade'offs. R1/9's were more durable but heavy cars like that tear up r.o.w.and torque bridges
Due to the number of door and window openings on the side of the car, significant reinforcement in this area would be difficult. Since structural engineering is not my strong suite, I have this question to pose:
In the incident like the one at 135th St. the car was sheared into two pieces due to the lack of any significant structural members in the side of the car (there were no injuries because the car was empty at the time). Had there been a structural member in the car side, the car might have crushed against the tunnel wall but not split into pieces. Which (splitting or crushing) would likely result in fewer injuries and/or deaths?
That is a very good and valid point you pose, Steve. Combining sidewall crossmembers with a sill and floor that is sturdier would probably result in a car that resembles a BMT Standard in weight and bulk, not what today's energy-conscious engineers have in mind. When #3669 hit the wall back in 1974, it resulted in a dent that intruded about 3-3 1/2 feet into the seating area proper. But when #1440 did essentially the same thing in the Union Square wreck, the two sides wound up almost touching each other. I do believe at least one, maybe two of the fatalities occurred in this car. This also leads me to believe that the floors and sills of R32 cars (and others of their generation) are sturdier than those of more modern 44s/46s/62s/68s. I come to the conclusion that the only way to make a subway car less vulnerable to side-impact carbody penetration and/or splitting is to make it too heavy to be efficient in this day and age, something that just won't fly.
Wayne
Perhaps some of the engineering stats could be had? cornerpost withstand numbers. I am sure I have the wrong terminology but the number expresses the force the corner should withstand before deforming. As a for instance the CB&Q gallery cars apparently were built to a higher figure than other Chgo area bi-level coaches--source Trains Magazine. So a comparison of this number for say R 1/9, R 27/30, 32 and 46 would be interesting particularly if at the same time one looked at gross weight etc.
The sides of the M-4's are corrugated stainless steel.
In the New York Post Monday February 8 page 21, is an article on the flashy new advertising ads mini-billboards which will be installed above 1,100 subway entrances throughtout the city starting Monday April 1.
After you have seen the article, your thoughts as always are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
[In the New York Post Monday February 8 page 21, is an article on the flashy new advertising ads mini-billboards which will be installed above 1,100 subway entrances throughtout the city starting Monday April 1. After you have seen the article, your thoughts as always are most welcome.]
The article isn't in the Post's online edition. Even so, the idea sounds pretty good to me. The TA may not be a profit-motivated private business, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't try to maximize its revenues. And advertising is a useful source.
Subway Q/A-'Q' for Quiz and 'A' for Answer it!:)
1. I make a stop at the same street I run on in the same borough. Who am I?
2. I am not a shuttle, but I only run in one borough. Who am I?
3. I cross the same line once as subway and once as an el. Who am I and who do I cross?
4. I am a major crosstown street, but only have one station "all to myself". Who am I and which station/line am I referring to?
5. I make but 5 stops on an outbound(from Manhattan) trip. Who am I?
Yes, these are trick questions, but the answers are for real and some refer to more than one line! Good luck!
Some of these questions are sort of ambiguous, but hey, I tried anyway.
1: Eastern Parkway, Whitehall Street, Canal Street Lower Platform...
2: There are no lines (other than shuttles) that are in the same borough 24/7. (Could you be thinking the 1/9? Because it's not; even considering the real political Bronx/Manhattan boundary.) The C (on weekends) runs only through Manhattan. But then again, lots of other lines are in a single borough depending on the time of day (R, B, 5, all at night).
3: the 7/Flushing line crossing the Sixth Avenue F line
4: 79th Street
5: Either the L or the Z... unless you're not counting the beginning terminal station as one of the stops, in which case J is the answer.
My answers were....
1.Whitehall St(N/R),Bushwick Ave.(L), BroadSt(J/M/Z), Grand Concourse(4)and Franklin Ave(FS)
2. Weekend C, 5 and 6, Late night B & R
3. The #7 over the 'G'
4. 42nd St/6th Ave opposed to 42nd St-Port Authority BusTerminal, 42nd St-Times Square and 42nd St-Grand Central.
5. The 'L', #7 and 63rd St shuttle.
I read on here somwhere about an new Athens Subway. Anyone have the skinny? How extensive and where it goes, compatable with the one existing line to Pireas, and construciton involving Preservation of existing Archeological sights and discoveries during excavation.
Lord knows that they needed a subway system badly with all the Pollution and traffic prolems.
Has the new subway affected traffic, such as the odd even Licence Plate system they have had in the city center for some time. Or the Electric trolly system which was fairly archaic, although perhaps not by Hellenic standards.
Number of lines? Passengers?
Who has the skinny?
Try this webpage:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/7843/
Here's "the skinny" on the Athens subway, courtesy of http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/7209/EHStory.html
ATHENS SUBWAY FACT SHEET
Information from HSAP Traction Dept.
Statistics
Weekday Passengers 0.26 mio
Monthly Passengers 6.5 mio
Annual Passengers 78 mio
Annual Revenues 7 billion Drs
Peak Car Requirement 192
Weekday Revenue Miles 31,933.69
Annual Revenue Miles 9.58 mio
Length in Miles 16.2
Service
Weekdays
Peak 3 Minutes (Central segment)
Base 6 Minutes
Evenings 10 Minutes
Saturdays
7/8 Minutes during the day
15 Minutes in the late evening
Sundays
8 Minutes during the day
15 Minutes in the late evening
The present route of the Subway was occupied by the Athens-Piraeus and Athens-Kephissia steam commuter railways.
Subway Construction began in 1895 to reach Omonoia Sq. in the heart of Athens
Electric operation between Omonoia and Piraeus Stations 1904.
Hellenic Electric RR takes over the Athens-Piraeus line and the Electric Transit Co. takes over the Athens-Kephissia Line in 1926.
The Kephissia Line closes down in segments from 1928 to 1938 to allow conversion to electric subway.
WWII put an end to subway conversion in 1940.
During the early 1950's the Electric Transit Co. transferred the abandoned Athens-Kephissia alignement to the Hellenic Electric RR.
Arrangements made in 1950 to purchase modern trainsets from Germany.
Subway operation reaches Kephissia in 1957.
Surface Route 3 to the Royal Pavillon converted to buses in 1960.
Control of the subway is transfered to State-owned HSAP Janary 1, 1976 and plans are made for 2 more lines.
Surface Route 4 to Perama converted to buses in 1977.
A newly formed company, ATTIKO METRO, offically starts building both new lines in 1992.
The subway cars are not air conditioned. I doubt this makes the EU happy.
I rode the Piraeus-Athens line back in 1983. I remember having to open the doors manually when the train stopped at the station, but that's about it.
There's a map of the new lines (but little other information) at the following English-language site: http://www.ametro.gr/
Waiting for me upon my return from Thailand was my copy of Peter Dougherty's Tracks of the New York City Subways, 2nd edition. What a nice welcome home! Thanks, Peter, for making the labors of your love available to us all.
There is a Old SubStation for the 3rd ave El still standing with all its old equipment still in it. The bird have taken over the place and someone have strip the copper for the Power Generate. But it is like it was at its hey days. Most of the dials and button are there. It like if you hit a few of them the place may start up. (I know but hopeful thinking) As I was standing inside yesterday thanking a bird who live there for the find gift he gave me on my coat you can almost hear the Generate humming. Then a cat came out of one Generate and scare the you know what out of me, it was time to go.
They have remove the front gate and the green barn door are open. They are open wide enought so you can take a good look in or walk in. If you are going to walk in please bring a friend or two. Across the street there the back for the Gunhill postoffice and nothing else on the block. On the corner there a small drug den but they don't brother know one(there trying to keep a low key). The Substation is on E.211st 200feet east from Whiteplain road. take the 2 train to gunhill and go downstairs, after you pass the faregate exit right. you willbe on Whiteplain rd facing E.211st. walk down the street 1/4 block and your there.
I've been wondering about that place. It is clearly visible from the platform at Gun Hill Road. Was it in use until recently? It is hard to believe it would simply have been sitting there unused all these years.
You say it is "going" now; any idea what will become of the site? Or of the equipment within it?
The 3rd ave Substation at E.211st shut down in the mid 70's when a new substation came on line a few blocks up. The new substation is by the old interlock tower north of gunhill rd station. The old substation was to be turned into a art place of some kind back in the early 80's but they fond asosto( Misspelled)in the place. By the way they have been removing that cancer stuff from the old power line at gunhill rd station.
What is the difference between the Triborough System and the Dual Contracts?
The Dual Contract lines were lines built and jointly operated by the IRT and BMT(or was it BRT at that time?)
They were the Astoria line( Queens 'N') and the Flushing line(#7).
The Flushing line was built with provisions so that BMT sized rolling stock could operate on the line for BMT/INDcars( at 10' wide and 60-75 feet long) couldn't operate on IRT lines (8'9" wide and 51' wide). The concrete at the edge of the platform is thin so that it could be cut away for BMTsized cars.
Asfor the Triborough system, I'm not quite sure about that, but I do believe it included the Second Avenue Subway(a term so annoying at this point I cringe when I hear it.)
In the "Building of the NYC Subway" section of this site I do believe there is a description of theTriB system.
(You'll have to forgive me, this damn spacebar can't seem to act right.)
I had another slip of the brain,
TheTriborough System was the Lexington Line(4/5/6) and the 4th Avenue line(B/M/N/R).
I'm having another now....:0:)
To be precise, the Triboro System was a proposal to build new subways serving Brooklyn, Manhattan and the Bronx. Construction of the 4th Av. Subway and the Lexington Line were part of this. A new operator was to be chosen by the city - the BRT was looking for this segment.
It evolved into the Dual Contracts which also involved the IRT. As a result of this, the IRT got
Lexington Av. Subway including Pelham & Jerome Lines
7th Av. Subway
Nostrand Av. Line
White Plains Rd. Extension
New Lots Extension
Van Cortland Park Extension
Third Tracks on 2nd, 3rd & 9th Av Els
Steinway Tunnel Upgrade
The BMT got:
4th Av. Subway
Sea Beach Line
West End & Culver el structures
Prospect Park Connection (Flatbush Av.)
Further upgrade of Brighton Line
Broadway Subway
Nassau Subway
Manhattan Bridge
14th St Subway
Broadway and Myrtle (north of Broadway) El Rebuilds
Jamaica Av. Extension
Carnasie & Fulton rebuilding east of East NY
Fulton Upgrade on inner end.
Both got:
Astoria and Corona Els. in Queens
As a sidebar...the Lex Ave line was actually under construction before they assigned it to the IRT...so it was built to 'regular' 10 ft clearences...which is why the platforms on the Lex are unusually wide (and considering the traffic, a good thing too...)
Not only the Lexington Ave. line - all Dual Contracts tunnels (and elevated structures) were built to IND/BMT dimensions. Only the original Contract One and Contract Two tunnels cannot accommodate 10-foot-wide cars. Compare the two straightaway runs down 7th Ave. and Park Ave. There is more clearance between the rails and I-beams on the 7th Ave. line than on the lower Lexington Ave. line.
But is it true that not just platforms, but also signals and through-spans are placed too close to the track, blocking 10ft cars? I've heard that the 10 ft cars still cannot be run down the middle tracks of the Jerome or Flushing lines from the A div./B div connectito just short of the first express stations becuase of this. (That's something I would like to see, and they should photograph)
You're probably right. There was a story a while back about an R-10 which snuck into a train of R-12/14s that was headed out to Corona Yard on the middle track of the Flushing line. All went well until the train reached 61st-Woodside when crru-u-u-nnnchhhhh!!! The R-10 attempted to blaze its own trail through the station.
Sounds strange that they could get an R-10 out to the Corona Yard, since the E/F/N/G yard is three miles away. Plus, how did the train get past Junction Blvd. to reach Woodside?
The train probably was headed from Coney Island to Corona. Since it entered Queensboro Plaza on the BMT side and then took the crossover, the first obstruction would have been at Woodside. Junction Blvd is between Woodside and Corona.
London Underground has shared trackage between the District and Picadilly Lines. Just before the portal for the Picadilly Line there is an oversize car detector which prevents District Cars from attempting to enter the tube tunnel. (Far messier than sending a 10 foot car down Jerome Av.) It sets all signals against the move and may even open a derail!
I know what you mean. District line rolling stock is much bigger, since that line was built by cut-and-cover. I read once that the reason the deep tube lines have smaller tunnels is that it cost four times more to build a deep tube line than a cut-and-cover line. Or was it four times more to dig a deep tunnel to the same dimensions as a cut-and-cover tunnel?
BTW, I remember one distinctive feature on London's tube trains which Montreal's Metro trains also have. Just after the doors would close, a bell in the motorman's cab would ring once, "dink". I presume that would be the same thing as an indicator light in New York.
In today's Philadelphia Daily News, there was an article about the downright frigid temperatures on SEPTA's trains, the El and Subway in particular.
A man(he was called the Phantom Rider-Bobw?:))went and took the temperature on the subway(cars# 525, 681 and 691), both the M-3's(car # 815) and M-4's, the trackless trolleys, the old and new buses and the RR.
The subways and buses were about as warm in the 51-61 degree range except for them-4's(71-74F)and the new Ikarus buses(68F).
The regional rail was the warmest overall type of vehicle with temperatures around 70 degrees.
As a somewhat knowledgable railfan, I had to disagree with some comments made in the article.
A-First of all, the Phantom Rider can't be Bobw(:)because he knows what a lousy service record the M-4's have(or at least display in service often) so the disparaging comments such as "...at least for commuters lucky enough to catch one of the new El trains....Unlucky El riders get stuck in one of the 39-year-old Budd trains...." steam my clams.
B-Iwas wondering if during the week we will see letters to the editor about how the RR trains are usually warmer than the subway commuters.Though they have to be on the train longer, does that make suburban commuters entitled to a warm, fully functioning train and city commuters not?
C-They of course made the point about the floor level heaters on the M-3's that burn your socks but leave the rest of you freezing.
So in conclusion, I've never really had a problem with the temperature on the trains. You have to remember that this is a subway and notthe Titanic(sorry). SEPTA depot officials say the temperatures are set when trains and buses leave the depot, but get cold along the vehicle's route.
That's fantastic. Try keeping the heat on.
For 'Net access to the PDN, try www.phillynews.com
In the article, there was made mention to SEPTA spokesWOMAN Stephan Rosenfeld.
Even the DN jives 'em:):):):)
No, Jack, it's not me! I met the Phantom Rider (if it's still the same guy) almost 20 years ago. I guess he or his successor is still around...
I didn't see the story but I'm a little surprised. The buses are always too hot and, of course, there are no windows to open for relief. This is why we heat-sensitive riders always resort to opening the roof hatches for air. Of course, this backfires on rainy days when the hatches won't close...
But the bus drivers get really pissed when you open the hatches. Once I was on the 125 from KOP and between there and Gulph Mills someone in the back of the crowded bus had opened the hatch and the bus driver wanted to know who it was.
When they wouldn't reaveal themselves the driver stopped at Gulph Mills, closed the doors and called the local police.They got the man and escorted him off the bus. So you can't even do that!
One thing that I thought would always help the problem of Subway platforms is Platform Edge Doors. I know with the current breaking falicies of the M-4 they may be worthless, but think about it in a perfect world...
Have fully climate controlled stations, that are more secure, easier to keep clean, and more. Noise levels would be cut down by the glass, and no one could fall onto the tracks... see the London underground page for more info...
Platform control doors in New York would not be feasable on the IRT until they retired all the Redbirds, since even though the cars are all the same length, the R-62/62A and the coming R-142s will have doors directly opposite each other, while the Redbirds' doors were always pushed two seats back from the cab area, putting the doors at a diagonal to each other.
As for the BMT/IND - Forget it! Not only do you have the same problem with the door angles on the R-32/38/40/42s compared to the R-44/46/68, but you also have the 15-foot difference in length to contend with. The platform doors would have to slide up into the ceiling like a garage door and be about 20 feet wide each to match up with all they different door positions.
The only place platform doors would be workable is on the Eastern Division, which can handle only the 60 foot cars (since there are no 67-footers available), but where the bulk of the stations are elevated.
The offset on the doors only appears to put them in a different place. Realistically, those doors are all the same distance from each other and the car ends on each side. If you cut a redbird in half (and we may soon get to do this experiment) and took one half and placed it so the cut is against the uncut side (ie, toast one side of two pieces of bread, place them toasted side to untoasted side) the doors will line up to within an inch or so. But you're right about the IND/BMT system, where the doors on the 2 different car lengths would require multiple openings that would probably fail in daily service. You also wouldn't be able to equip all IRT stations, because of limited view and curves The time has come to stop making excuses for those idiots in society who don't know to stand back. What next, jersey barriers on street curbs to keep cars from running up on the sidewalk?
-Hank
There's also the problem of `platform door failure' to think about. I was on the tram at the Dallas-Fort Worth International Airport back when it first opened, and the platform doors had a nasty habit of not opening when the train doors did (or the trains themselves did not align with the doors). This left you taking a wonderfully slow trip around the D-FW aiport (Think of an fully-loaded R-16 trying to climb the Smith-9th elevated section in an ice storm and you get the idea) while your plane is getting ready to leave.
I could just see a crowded train's door on the Lex opening up and a crowd of people smashing into a glass door on the platform. The doors would last about as long as the carpeting did on those R-44 cars.
Like I said, perfect world =)...
I was actually centering this discussion in Phila, I don't really know that much about NYC Transit. It would be slightly more feasable in Phila simly because all El cars are being replaced, and all BSS cars are also the same.
"Platform Door Failure" is of course also something I did not consider, but I figure if you set them up similar to the mechanisms on the trains, they should last with regular maitenance. In the underground, the doors can also be slid open from trackside.
Of course, in Phila; the underground stations would have to be completely redone, which most need anyway, and need to be made more acessible.
The drivers on the artics welcome the ventilation! Although there was one once who made a similar complaint to me when I opened the "hatch". I asked whether he would rather have the hatch opened or one of the emergency windows flapping. He relented.
I guess you got a reasonable driver...or an uninformed one.
When we finally made our way back on to 76, the driver I mentioned was chatting with some of the people up front, saying that if one of the hatches blew off the top of the bus, she could lose her job. Truth or just covering herself up?
Let's not forget that subway and bus riders in winter most likely are wearing coats. Keeping the cars at normal room temperatures would be too hot for the coat-wearing riders. Now suburban commuter trains are a different story, as most riders are able to take their coats off.
Remember also that subway trains make more frequent stops and have 3 or 4 sets of doors, which are thus opened more frequently making it harder to keep the cars warm.
True indeed, and truer if you rode an elevated line on an end of the train not subject to being covered by station canopies..the rain, snow, and wind blasted in as soon as the doors opened! I can remember going to school on the Jamaica Line in the middle 60's; there was Skip-stop service provided by the 14 and 15 inbound from 168th St. The 0757 departure was a 14, which usually was a BMT Standard, or an R16; which deadheaded in from the ENY Yard. Many times this train had clearly been stored with all the doors open, because during snowstorms, there was always a PILE of snow INSIDE the car..we always had to clear a seat and stomp a path in from the door! One time the vents were all open (BMT Stndrd) and the FANS were on HIGH..all during a snowstorm! But they ran..and ON TIME! I will say the old BMT Standards did seem to have a better heater than the R16's....the car was nice and warm well before arriving at Bway Junction...not true with the R16's!
That's not surprising. The BMT standards outperformed the R-16s in almost any category, and that includes lousy weather. Come to think of it, the R-16s were outperformed by almost every other car class. That's not taking anything away from the BMT standards. There will never be another car like them (or the R-10s, for that matter).
I don't know if trains are or were stored in yards with their side doors open; however, the storm door at the very end of a train could have been left open. There is a photo in Gotham Turnstiles of a train of BMT standards laid up on the middle track of the Astoria line with its side doors open.
The worst in Phila in my book are the Budd El cars. The heaters are undersized for the cars and at either terminal the trains sit outdoors with the doors opened for 5 minutes plus. With all the stops, it's no wonder that the cars are iceboxes in the cold weather. I recall riding on cars so cold that the windows steamed to the point at which no one could see in or out them.
The M-4's are supposed to have a modification to allow only one set of doors per car to remain open at the terminals to prevent this from occurring. Let's see what happens.
I was at the 161 St. uptown "D" platform today and saw a pigeon walking about on the platform. Now upstairs on the elevated '4' line I would expect it, but in the subway?
Do you suppose he flew (or walked) through the transfer area from the elevated portion of the station? They are doing some construction there, there is a wooden door at the top of the escalator that may have been open earlier. My guess would be he flew in this door and it was later closed behind him. I have never seen a pigeon in an actual underground subway station before; the closest I have seen would be at the Morris Park station on the '5', where they routinely fly into the underground portion of the station from the open-air portion, and sometimes even a bit into the tunnel between Morris Park and Pelham Parkway.
It is quite common for pigeons to travel on London Underground Trains. Edgware Road seems to be the most popular. They usually travel a couple of stops and get off. I did travel with one on the Central Line (deep level tube) some time ago. It must have got on at a surface level station before it went underground. They board the trains looking for scraps of food and are usually rewarded. A half eaten McDonalds quaterpouder with cheese seems the most popular made3 even more delicious by a kicked over Coke which by now is going hard and sticky. I think the official LT Policy is that they are vermin.
Sometimes i see pigeon's at the Kingsbridge Station of the D train also. How these flying rodent's get underground at the above station beats me.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
I saw one at the lower level of 168th St (1/9 platform)!
I've seen them there too. I figure they just fly right in through the tunnel portal. I've also seem them inside the Staten Island Mall, and occasionally in supermarkets. I just have a single question: Does the pigeon have to pay a fare to ride the train?
-Hank :)
The fare was deposited on the floor, the seats, coats, etc...
Standard pigeon s***. (Unless on of the GoodFeathers.)
He must have taken the elevator.
Pigeons, and birds in general, do seem to have a tendency toward getting into strange places. Just last Saturday I spotted a bird swooping around the Edwards Supermarket in Farmingville. The only way into the place is via two automatic doors that are closed most of the time, and possibly also through a loading dock. It was sort of cute, until it dawned on me that our feathered friend was flying over the fruits and vegetables.
I've seen pigeons in Penn station before. I think the get in through the LIRR entrance, as they seem to gravitate toward the LIRR concorse. I heard when the AstroDome was sealed in, a whole flock of them were trapped inside. Also that astroturf was created because real grass was unsucessful inside, but that's another story.
This is getting off subject, for which I apologize. When the Astrodome originally opened, the roof was transparent to allow the sun inside. A special grass was developed for indoor use and was put down on the playing field. The real problem was that outfielders couldn't follow the flight of the baseball on fly balls because of the sun coming in through the roof. The roof was then painted, which solved that problem, but then the grass died due to lack of sunlight. Enter Monsanto, who developed the synthetic playing surface which bears the name of the stadium for which it was specifically made.
BTW, Mickey Mantle is credited with hitting the first home run in the Astrodome, in an exhibition game.
I'm not surprised; I've seen several at Columbus Circle when the station isn't busy. The garbage pile on the center platform is probably the big draw.
A pigeon is a logical denizen of the subway: A rat with feathers!
Now, if you see a seagull (the other feathered rat) down there, that would be more unusual!
The seagulls prefer the elevateds -- they hang out at Stillwell and on the Rockaway line.
There was once an E train of R-6s which sounded like a flock of seagulls as it started to pull out of 42nd St.
Dear friends and colleagues: I happen to notice that today there was a posting by "R33 Redbird."That's not me.In the future I'll sign as follows:Larry,RedbirdR33.
Best wishes,Redbird
We've had some good discussion over which is our favorite subway car.I'd like to list mine but split them up according to which generation they belong to.The first generation would be the equipt
ment purchased by the original owners:IRT,BRT/BMT and IND R 1-9.
The second generation would be the cars that replaced them the R-10's thru R-42's. The third generation would be the R-62's and up. I admit I'm not quite sure where to place the R-44's and R-46's since they did replace the last of the R-1/9's.However the R-10's thru R-42 were a mechanically homogenous group whereas the R-44's and R-46's were not and also their 75 foot size places them more with the later cars.
1st Generation:Lo-V's,I was too young to really remember the Hi-V's and Flivvers,the Steinways were nice but a bit rough riding. The Lo-V's gave great service for many years and later formed the backbone of the Work Fleet.
2nd Generation: No contest,R-29,33,36 Redbirds and Bluebirds.The R-26's and 28's are nice but again seem to ride a little rougher than the Redbirds and Bluebirds.
3rd Generation: This is tough.My personal opinion is that they lack character and resemble silver sausages.I'd have to say the R-110A's
since they seem to have some individuality.
If you see a bias to the IRT your right.
Best Wishes to all,Larry,Redbird R33
I personally would lump the R-44s and R-46s into the second generation group, since they did allow the last of the R-1/9s to be retired.
Now, back to your question:
First generation: R-1/9s, hands down. The only other first generation equipment I ever rode on was BMT standards, and you know how I felt about them back then. I never rode on any prewar IRT rolling stock.
Second generation: R-10s, no contest. The A line will never be the same without them. End of subject. The R-32s and R-38s come in next, with the Redbirds as a group being a sentimental favorite. I have a soft spot for the R-32s, since I remember when they were brand-spanking new. My very first subway ride was on an N of R-32s.
Third Generation: single R-62As. They have get-up-and-go, and at least you can look out the storm door window. Which is more than I can say on both counts for the R-68s.
1st generation- Low-V.nothing more to add here!My all-time favorite
2nd generation: R44/46- Introduced the ding-dong door closing and multi-color seats.
3rd generation-R62 single cars.
Actually, I read somewhere that the BMT Bluebird back in the 30s had the `ding dong' sound when the doors closed. Apparently, the TA didn't think it was a `must' for the system for another 25 years, until the R-44s were ordered.
I understand the Multisectionals had door chimes, or was it one of the experimentals (Zephyr or Green Hornet)?
You may be right, though.
I will put my two cents worth in, having missed the original post by a few days:
1st Generation: 1938 WF Low-Vs, with their sickly green paint, jumbo fans and ogee roofs. Second place: R7s/R9s with FIBERGLAS seats.
2nd Generation: Slant R40s. 'Nuff said. Second place: R16s.
3rd Generation: Begrudgingly, R68As, esp. the ones with the black floors. (5122-1-3-4; 5058-7-9-60 etc). The R110B is nice too, but there aren't enough of them.
Wayne [MrSlantR40]
In reading thru the threads..I am wondering what is the maximum allowed speed - civil speed and posted - on the system, and where this would be; it seems that now that I am a periodic visitor to NY, the subways - read B division - seem slower than before I left. I very vaguely seem to remember a 50 posting somewhere - probably on the route of the "A", but that's the highest I can drag out of my memory. Any one have this info?
It seems that this perceived slowing started about the time of the replacement of the R1/9's and the D units.
R62 and R62A does have #1 to #7 and #9 circle also diamond is #4,#5,#6,and #7. I never heard #8,#10,#11,#12, and #13 Roll Sign on R62.
The other numbers as described do exist. I saw R62A #1744 sporting a green #10 sign back on January 28. These are for future route designations, no doubt, and have been widely spotted and reported.
They run all the way up to a red #13, and someone reported a red #14 as well, but I can't confirm this. You may see some of these once the Redbirds (which do not have them) are fully phased out.
Wayne
I was looking at Illustrated Subway Cars Roster and Cars Wrecked/Scrapped while in Revenue Service. I saw a R40M #4461 J train with no nose with heavy damage. That the same train that motorman was kill in Wreck into M train at Williamburge Bridge in 1995? I thought they scrapped that car and why they keep that R40m #4461? They should never kept that train because motorman was kill in that train. God bless you
Pending litigation likely
Actually, I believe that #4461 will be returned to service when the repairs are done, not merely kept around until the court cases are settled (if that were the case, there'd be no need to repair it).
I stated several weeks ago that I would no longer respons to posts without an E-mail address. Hopefully this will be the one exception!
I have the "CFR" (code of Federal Regulations) about railroads. I also have the NYCT Rule book and the complete Policy Instruction manual. No where does it say that a car that is involved in a fatality, should not be rebuilt. On what do you base your belief? More importantly,besides posting inane messages here, what do you do for (fun)?
They probably elected to repair #4461 because despite the heavy carbody penetration as the result of the collision, the frame and sills withstood the blow. #4664 was definitely not so lucky.
Other cars that were seriously damaged, repaired and returned to service include R42 #4612, R40M #4501, R38 #4063, R27 #8217, R68 #2755, R42 #4918, R42 #4938 and #4939, R46 #5546, R46 #5796.
(there are others, I am sure).
The carbody repair folks at CI (AND 207th Street) are experts.
Wayne
Maybe you have discussed this.....
But why did The TA Repeal it's rule against strollers around 1992/93.
( am i right, or were they always allowed? )
I belive Steve answered this some time ago. Ruth Messinger was the person who got the rule changed.
Because it was mentioned here, I found the article on the x-bus signs for the non-existant routes on Staten Island, it'll be there until Wednesday, at least.Phantom Routes
-Hank
For the second time in three weeks, a local person was killed by a SEPTA commuter train.
This happened at the Gwynedd Valley station on the R5 to Doylestown last night.
A local man was awaiting a train to Center City. As the train approached the station, the security gates(for there is a grade crossing near the station) went down and hit the top of a PennDOT truck. A piece of the gate flew off and hit the man in the head, knocking him out. He then fell by tracks as the train approached.
This time it wasn't because of someone on the tracks but an unfortunate freak accident.
The Post reports a problem with the trucks on
certain subway cars. Why on these cars, and why now? Has
this ever been a problem before? Click for
story
How come the R 44s and R46 and it also look the R 62s are are haveing problems like cracked under carriges and it doen't look like much will be done. So does that mean were all at risk when we ride the trains? Maybe an Road Car Inspector out there can answer there Questions. Also read the story that Gary W has
There's not much that CAN be done about it. Metals fatigue, it's a fact of life. This has probbably been a problem throughout the history of the system. I've heard the LIRR is having the same things happen to their M-1s. A lot of why the GG-1 was taken out of service was fatigue. You can do regular monitoring, and I suspect the TA is doing so already. I'd also assume, though I'm by no means an expert on truck design, that any crack large enough to be a serious issue is also large enough to be rather visable. Besides, crack detection is fairly advanced these days, with ultrasound, magnaflux, etc.
As far as figuring out WHY the cracks are appearing, that would require quite a good study of the design, and probbably testing a truck in service with a bunch (like a few hundred) strain gauges on it to see what's going on. Nothing new either, but not the easiest of tasks. Made even more fun by the harsh environment that is the NYC subway.
Anyway, I'd hardly stop riding the subway because of this, given that I've not heard of any accidents that were caused by truck failure, outside of the traction motor drop on the market Frankford line a few years back, though I did hear that some LIRR train dropped a motor in Jamacia the other week. Maybe we're all concerned about the wrong transit system?
I'm more worried about the tracks on the Manhattan Bridge. I read a summary of an inspection report on the A/B tracks from a year to two ago that recommened upgrading the tracks TO the level required for safe transit service, and painting the bridge IMMEDIATELY.
Are the cars the:
R-33
R-38
R-44
R-46?
The problem of truck cracks is a serious one but in light of the NY Post article, must be viewed with perspective. As stated, there have been 70+ incidents of cracked trucks in the past 3 years. With over 11,000 trucks that's a failure rate of less than 0.2% per year. Also remember that of the 70+ incidents, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM has been found during routine inspection. None of the cracks has led to an "in-service" failure, much less a derailment. Finally, it was Car Maintenance that found this problem and reported it to Engineering (not the other way around).
The first cracked truck was found at Jamaica Shop (on an R-46), as was the last one (on an R-32). I must say that the last one was an eye opener. Of the thousands of collective years of experience at Jamaica Shop, none of us has ever seen one quite like it. But again, it was found during insoection and not as a result of a failure. The men and women who do the daily car inspections around the NYCT system do an excellent job.
As to why the trucks are cracking, that's under investigation. Fatigue is the most likely conclusion but as yet, engineering has yet to make that determination definitively. However, some of the trucks now in service are the original ones, delivered with the cars. Yet, the Buckeye trucks under the R-46s seem particularly prone to one type of crack and they are a relatively new truck.
In perspective, cracks due to stress and fatigue are commonplace on jet aircraft. We all know that a stress crack in a wing spar, up 35,000 feet at 600 miles an hour can be far more catostrophic than an equalizer bar crack down 30 feet at 40 MPH. Despite that, most of us still fly. We trust that the inspectors will find these failures before they become a problem. For the record, I ride the trains every day without worry.
(Note to Davie Forster: RCIs do not find these types of cracks. Routine inspections are done by Car Inspectors)
Thanks Steve for the currection car Inspectors find that stuff out not Road car Inspector.
Sorry confusing I may have caused.
To quote Yogi Berra, it's deja vu all over again.
I seem to have read somewhere that the R-10s had truck cracking problems when they were new, but that had to do with casting methods.
I'll say this much: it's nice to know that maintenance and routine inspections are a top priority these days.
The Post story on the new carcking problems got me thinking -- Since the Flivvers were delivered 90 years ago, has they been a really bad fleet of cars on the IRT line? It seems like all the problems we hear about -- the slowness of the R-16s and the R-68s, the re-do of the R-40s (a design rather than a mechanical problem), and the truck problems of the R-46s and the various troubles with the R-44 -- all are on B division cars.
Is that because of their bigger size/weight, or that the IRT cars have always had fewer untested bells and whistles put on them than the BMT/IND cars have?
No IRT cars were ever ordered when the TA went through their radical design period comming up with bad designs. All cars ever ordered for the IRT were already designed for the B division. The R-10's came with the bad trucks, so when the r-12's came, they came with the r-10 type replacement truck.
However, the R-110a's are the IRT's lemons. They have cracked trucks and other assorted problems.
Folks should remember that the 110a was a test train and some components were bound to fail. Those components that failed or proved unreliable would not be included on the new fleet. The other side of the coin is, the new technology that was tested and proved its self during the test may be safely incorporated in the new fleet.
I think its unfair to call 110a test train a lemon.
I didn't include the 110A for that reason, just as I wouldn't include the R-11 for the BMT, since both were basically experimental single-train orders. But it does seem as though for better (air conditioning) or worse (75-foot cars with locked doors) the B division seems to be where the NYCTA/MTA has liked to try its innovations.
Lest we not forget these:
SMEE brakes (R-10s)
P-Wire Brakes (R-44/R-46)
Hydraulic Brakes (R-44)
Fly Wheels (R-32)
Current Collectors (R-46)
Air Bag Suspension (R-44 and R-46)
Static Converters (R-42)
Single handle Controllers (R-44/R-46)
fluorescent lighting (R-10)
AC (R-38s)
Large End Signs (R-40)
Electronic Side Signs (R-44/R-46)
etc. etc. etc.
Actually, the first air-conditioned NYC subway car was IRT R-15 6239. It was retrofitted in the 1950s. In addition, 10 IRT R-17s were delivered with air-conditioning (6800-6809).
David
Don't forget about the precipitrons on the R-11s, which were supposed to sterilize the air and ended up sterilizing everything and everyone inside the train!
Based on the articles in the News and the Post today, they ought to try bringing that back for the E train. Even if it didn't keep the line any cleaner, at least the people who are throwing all that junk onto the floors won't be having any kids who'll do the same, so that should clean the line up in about 20 years or so.
The IRT was also an innovator. Today's cars are all Low-V rather than High-V. Original transit cars were High-V with full current going through the cab controls. IRT introduced the Low-V with their cars ,some in fan service called "Low-V"cars. For their time, they were the new technology trains . AFter they proved themselves, all cars since have been Low-V.
Long live the Low-V, my all-time favorite subway car.(Yes, I have been on 4 fan trips on them-once to the Rockaways and three times for an all-day excursion leaving from Grand Central Shuttle Tracks.!
I especially like the "Steering wheel" handbrakes and the four sided marker lights at the tops of the cars. The "wicker" seats and slat signs are also great.(Of course, today the seats would be slashed by the end of a trip and signs gone within 2-3 stations.)
I think you have to consider that the IRT has used the same basic car for almost 50 years. The BMT and IND are the proving grounds for the TA as far as innovation.
Fellow posters, in the few days that I've been following this site I've seen lots of good messages and, unfortunately, a few bad ones. Accordingly, I'd like to suggest the following revised rules for posting on this site, in the spirit of those stated by Mr. Pirmann:
1. No posting until you have read the entire site (http://www.nycsubway.org). Many of the simple questions I have seen here are answered on this site. If it's about NYC rail transit and it's not answered on the site, it's probably not a stupid question and this is the place to get an answer.
2. No flamage of any kind. If a particular post bothers you, ignore it. Responding negatively only gives the poster the thrill he/she seeks. Nastiness, when ignored, will go away and seek satisfaction elsewhere.
3. Answer a request for information only if you have it. Don't invent an answer; there are enough people out here who do know and wrong information only confuses the issue. If you do make an honest mistake, however, admit it and you will be forgiven.
4. Try to use correct spelling and grammar. Again, no one's perfect, but the effort would be appreciated by all.
One additional suggestion to everyone reading this: if you live remotely close to NYC, join the Transit Museum and participate in their tours. I know that I have learned a lot about things I have seen but never understood (or thought I understood but really didn't) and about a lot of places and things that I would never have had the chance to see otherwise. If you can afford to be on the Internet you can afford to join!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
One further: (not observed by Anon_e_mouse) Post your e-mail address (if you're on the net with an isp, you have mail) so that posters who want to follow up can do so personally, rather than post it and possibly start a flame war. (I know, there are not supposed to happen here, but........) Several of us have made new friends because of SubTalk and e-mail,
If you're on the net, period, you have no excuse for not having a valid email address. There are more than enough 'freemail' sites that there should be no excuses.
-Hank
Just to add, if people don't start using complete sentences, I'm gonna send my creepy goggled mouse to your house. I mean, come on, third grade english! Any literate person over 9 years of age should at least be able to write a complete sentence.
-Hank
You are, of course, assuming (remember the REAL meaning of "assume") that modern (post 1980) education teaches English grammer and sentence construction.
I learned it, I use it, I just can't spell. A complete sentennce is different from poor spelling. If I say : 'I Like trains, they run on traks in Brooklin and Manhatten' You know what I'm saying, spelling errors and all. If I say: 'These is those trains. Theys ares in the subways.' How much sense does it make? Typos? OK, no problem. My new keyboard is 3" smaller than my old one, and I have big fingers. Leads to lots of typos. And I've yet to meet anyone (with the exception of my English 8 teacher in high school) who didn't appriciate a spell-checker.
-Hank
What's a spell checker? (just kidding)
I learned a long time ago that one must never assume anything.
DOES ANYBODY HAVE KNOWLEDGE OF WHEN OF THE FIRST OF THE R-142's ARE DUE TO ARRIVE? (OR IF THEY DID ALREADY) ANY INFO WOULD BE HELPFUL THANKS!!!
The R 142 did not arrive yet. But there has been talk of them arriveing around about the end of the year. Maybe someone else will have more Info. to share
The R 142 did not arrive yet. But there has been talk of them arriveing around about the end of the year. Maybe someone else will have more Info. to share
The first train of R142 will arrive in the Spring of this year.
Arrival is alleged to begin around mid-April to early May. And turn off your caps, please!
-Hank
I know this is a terrible pun, but it won't be long before we'll all be singing, "Bye, Bye, (Red)Birdie(s)". Sorry, but I couldn't resist.
I can hear the hisses and boos...splat!!
Yep, the first of the R142's could be here in two months...lets keep are fingers crossed! For those who will miss the redbirds, don't worry, because I think about 300 of them will still be in service even after all the R142's arrive.-Nick
But for how long?:(
I don't know, but probably until the next shipment of IRT trains come in, which would be in the next few years. The question is where the remaining 300 redbirds are going to be assigned, are they going to be scattered on all the lines, or on just one or two of them? I know the R62's are going to the #7, but perhaps the redbirds should remain there instead because it's a partly elevated line, and the redbirds look so authentic when you see them from the highways.-Nick
I think they should have repainted those World's Fair cars back to blue and white years ago. Perhaps before they're completely gone.....
-Hank
Yeah, the #7 won't be the #7 without those old red cars eeking and screaching and grinding around turns. The stainless look will kill it. Why can't the TA at least paint their eqipment so it looks nice?
I dunno...painting on stainless steel? Maybe not painted all red, but maybe a blue stripe like the R46's and other cars used to have. However, the MTA likes everyhting to have as modern as possible look;which is why those blue stripes were taken off in the first place. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if the R62's went in for rebuilding soon (they are between 14 and 16 years old already), and came back with electronic signs like the R46's did, and maybe a few other surprises too.-Nick
Yes I have heard that as soon as the R 142s come in the R62 are supose to be rebuilt. Maybe someone has more Info. on that.
Has the TA gone through with having those annoying "automatic" female voice station announcements like on the prototypes??
>>Has the TA gone through with having those annoying "automatic" female voice station announcements like on the prototypes??
Boy, I hope not. They put recorded announcements in the new cars on the Boston Red Line, and it's sucked all the character out of that ride, having some accentless robot chirp, "Now approaching... Harvard Square!" instead of a local voice growling "Haahvahd."
Personally, I like the computerized messages better. While sometimes they may seem annoying, you always know what stop is next, and other important informaion. No longer do we have to guess what the mumbling conductor is saying, and frankly I won't miss that at all.-Nick
Theres nothing like hearing a live voice.
I much prefer the automated station stop announcements (and associated LED displays) in the new Boston red line cars. With live humans I may or may not get any announcement at all, and I may or may not understand what I hear. The automatic announcements do sometimes malfunction though, which then makes them worse than no announcement at all.
The blue stribes on the stainless cars were removed for economic reasons, not cosmetic. Why pay to paint something that doesn't need painting? Personally, I like the all-steel look. Gives it a bright appearence. With the subway, the only thing people care about are if the train is on time, if they can get a seat, and is it clean. Paint on the cars (with the exception of graffiti, which gives a bad impression) makes no difference.
-Hank
Hank, this is very true. But that also means that not too many people are interested in going back to the worlds fair color scheme, why repaint when the red looks fine?-Nick
Hopefully the TA wanted to keep the traditional door chime instead of that ANNOYING BEEPING.I think it would drive me up a wall.BEEEP BEEEP BEEEEEP.See?I payed no attention to it then,it was a prototype.This is now the future of new york city subway.BEEEEP BEEEEP BEEEEP.
From what I used to hear, the 7 was supposed to keep the redbirds until the end. Only when all of them are retired, would the 62's be shifted over.
If a post a couple of months ago was right, the Redbirds on the 7 have one of the best MBDF numbers on the system, so you would figure the MTA would keep them around if they're that reliable.
On the other hand, since corrosion is a big problem, they might want to go back and swap the southern terminals for the 2 and 3 and run the Redbirds on the 3 from Flatbush Ave. to 148th Lennox. Outside of the Times Square shuttle that would be the closest you could get to a completely underground (and out of the weather) line on the IRT.
On Sunday, I saw a pair of R32s (4806 & 4807) on the Manhattan-bound express track of the F train, seemingly laying up in the station. The end rollsigns read "Not in service" but the side rollsigns claimed that the cars were on the Z. Both cars were unmanned, but one had a clamped to various handholds and parts of the benches. I couldn't see the front of the equipment, but the whole setup looked brand-new and a good bit more complicated than a stereo.
I haven't the foggiest idea what these cars were doing. Any ideas?
-Daniel Casey
(((((((Bzzzzzzzzzzz)))))))) Wrong. 4806 & 07 are R-42s. R32s don't have an end sign roll. Track Geometry cars are designated 0TG01 and 0TG02. They do not look like subway cars. I don't have the list of cars involved but I would suspect that those two cars are part of the CBTC program and were part of a test.
You are wrong about the TGC numbers. The correct ones are TGC1 & TGC2
On the car they display that numbers as you stated but in the computer they are designated stated in my post
What computer are you refering to?
The R42 cars selected for the CBTC program are as follows: 4612/13, 4694/95, 4758/59, 4762/63, 4806/07, and 4836/37.
What station? What was clamped to various handholds? And Those are not R32 car numbers....R40 or R42, but definately not R32.
-Hank
[What station? What was clamped to various handholds? And Those are not R32 car numbers....R40 or R42, but definately not R32.
-Hank]
Right on the numbers; I'm not much of a car spotter. This was on the Manhattan-bound express track of the F, about halfway down the 7th Avenue station in Park Slope. Clamped to various handholds was some kind of custom-built metal rack: about ten feet long and three feet deep. It supported plywood shelves, and on the shelves were stacks of various electronic components, most the size and shape of VCRs-- what kind or what possible function I can't say, since they faced away from the windows. It looked for all the world like a very complicated, custom-built stereo of some kind.
-Daniel Casey
4806 and 4807 are R42 numbers. According to my records these are part of the automatic train control (CBTC) test train. 4612 and 4613 are two others; I'll have to look up the rest. They hang out on the bypass between 7th Avenue & Church while they go through their paces.
The "Z" sign is very believable (so would "J", "L" or "M") since they are all Eastern Division cars.
Wayne
From PATH employees: The reason PA-3 cars (700 series) are in work service is due to door problems. Many days I have ridden and seen these cars with oen or more door leaves or both in a pair being cutout. The intent is to retire all PA-3 cars and scrap the K cars when the new cars arrive. The new cars are on hold due to problems with the FRA rejecting OPTO and PATH's insistence on OPTO.
I have no info on when the new cars are coming or what they will look like or who will build the PA-5 cars.
What cars are on the PATH now? When were they purchased? There is a new order places/being placed?---Could someone elaborate?
Check out the PATH Roster. All the PA car classes (PA1, PA2, PA3, and PA4) are still in service.
--dave
p.s. Getting tired of hearing these "Check out the...." posts huh? :-)
A follow up to our most excellent host's excellent post:
PATH wants new cars, and PATH needs new cars. When they are bought they will be called "PA-5" cars.Boarding and exiting PATH at Newark Penn Station I pass by all of their storage yard and see all their trains in the various yards and have seen increasing numbers of 700 (PA-3) series cars in work service. They are still not painted yellow but thet wear a big W and a small Mw (for Maintenance of Way) and have the windows covered by the same material that makes up the side body of the car.
The hold-up is the FRA. PATH is subject to the FRA rules. FRA has said no many times to OPTO. PATH has also tried many times to get out from the burden of FRA regulations but they are always turned down.
Dave can correct me if I am wrong but some of the PA cars date to 1961 or early 60s. Only the PA-4 cars(the 800 series- the ones with 3 sets of doors on each side, the stainless steel cars) are 1987-1989.
I hope this clarifies the issue
Is the whole PATH system subject to FRA or only the portion out to Newark Penn Station?
Your doing "locomotive" motor inspection on each and every car like the LIRR does on their MU's??
Ditch Lighting?? (hehe)
Unlike the NYCT, the signaling on PATH in it's entirety meets FRA. They use double rail AC track circuits with impedance bonds.
The entire system is FRA. All doors have grab bars inside and outside and are subject to FRA inspections like LIRR. They ahve tried to get out of FRA regulations but they cant get it approved so they have to contend with FRA.
It is my understanding that inspection frequencies are more frequent and when to replace is morer stringent than the subways face. I'm sure that Steve (trainmaster7)can elaborate more on FRA standards vs transit's standards on repair vs replace.
Due to a switch near their Harrison Car Maintenance Facillity(HCMF) from the yard track crossing(no switch) the PATH NY Bound track and joining the AMTRAK main line and another switch near the tunnel portals used also by conrail(And whatever RR will use the tracks now) the line is FRAand why they wont allow PATH to pull out of FRA regs.
Amazing, Thanks
Hello! I am looking for plans to the BMT multi-section cars. Especially the BLUEBIRD cars, and the multi's that were built by Pullman Standard and St. Louis Car Co.
Thank you!
Why? What are you up to? tell us. .............please?
I am thinking of building a set or two, if I can ever decide between etched brass or styrene plastic. It would make more sense for me to make styrene masters, and then do urethane resin castings of the cars from these masters. I've done it before in narrow-gauge On2, so the only hard part will be all those @#$%^&* rivets!
Another plan request, this time for the "mean-looking" type D. Thank you!
I don't have plans, but do have some pictures, interior and exterior.
Would this help? They are recent, taken just last October 18. The middle ("B" car) is shorter than the end ("A" or "C") cars.
Their unit numbers are 6001 thru 6120 A, B and C.
Wayne
I have the Greller book, which has a decent set of photos. I'm surprised that the plans aren't more readily available. Thanks for the info.
Spiral bound photocopies of original NYCTA plan sheets. 8.5x11"
format, chock full of information. Contact me by direct email. Thank
you. Includes the following:
New York City Transit Authority
Car Maintenance Department General Equipment Drawings
Electric Locomotives
General Electric/ALCO steeplecab #5
General Electric steeplecab #6
General Electric steeplecab #7
Diesel Locomotives
Whitcomb #9 (originally US Army #7980)
General Electric #10 & 11
General Electric #50-53
General Electric #54-59
General Electric #60-62
Subway Passenger Cars
IRT Division Q type: #1600ABC-1629ABC (2 pages)
BMT Division type A, B, BT #2400-2799 (2 pages)
IND Division type R-1 #100-399
IND-BMT Division type R-4 #400-899
IND-BMT Division type R-7A #1575
IND-BMT Division type R-11 #8010-8019
IRT Division type R-12 #5703-5802
IRT Division type R-14 #5803-5952
IRT Division type R-15 #5953-5999 and 6200-6252
IRT Division type R-17 #6500-6899
IRT Division type R-21 #7050-7299
IRT Division type R-22 #7300-7749
IND-BMT Division type R-30A #8352-8411 (2 pages)
IRT Division type R-33 #9306-9345
MOW Service Cars
Contract R-3: Motor Flat Cars #20010 & 42
Contract R-3: Pump Car #20128
Contract R-3: Trailer Dump Cars #35/36 and 20137-20140
Contract R-20: Telescoping Boom Crane Car #20153
Contract R-20: Traveling Crane Cars #20151/52
Contract R-20: Trailer Dump Cars #20141-20144
Trailer Hopper Cars #H250-H279
Trailer Flat Car #20023 after 1954 rebuild
Tank & Weed Spray Car #20048
Trailer Tank Cars #20122-20125
Trailer Rail Handling Crane #20149
$12 postpaid in the USA.
I'm looking for the specifications and/or histories of three locomotive from the Manhattan Railway: #21, #159 and #303. I believe that the first two were built by New York in 1886, and the third by Baldwin in 1881. I'm looking for cylinder size, driver diameter and disposition.
Try this:
Tribute to the "El" Forney steamers
1/48, O Scale News, May/June 1987 page 16
( 0-4-0T, 0-4-4T, ELEVATED, ENGINE, FORNEY, "FRANK, JOSEPH H."
from the model magazine index search page at:
http://www.accurail.com/tm.exe
This is a really nice drawing:
An elevated railway Forney
Narrow Gauge and Short Line Gazette, January/February 1989 page 50
( 0-4-4T, DRAWING, ENGINE, FORNEY, "GEBHARDT, ED", LOCOMOTIVE
Good luck!
Some additional info for you Steve:
Elevated Railway forneys
Built by Rhode Island Loco Works +/- 1893
drivers: 44"
cylinders: 13"x21"x18"
weight: 60,000lbs.
pressure: 180psi
brakes: Eames vacuum
cross-compound or simple (as ordered)
Chicago had 35 locos, similar to the ones built for NYC. An ex-Chicago loco resides in the Museum of Transportation in St. Louis.
If you can lay your hands on it, "Modern Locomotives" published by the Railway Gazette in 1901 is an excellent source of information.
There was a period of time from about 1973 when the KK Av Bway-Bklyn Lcl stopped running until 1989 when the Z began that the J provided all service on the Jamaica Av Line. During this time J's ran skip-stop service southbound on the Jamaica Line like they do today during the AM rush making either "A" or "B" stops. Since only the J was running how on earth did they tell the trains apart?Thanks in advance.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Stations along the Jamaica line were marked as A, B, or AB depending on which of the skip-stop services stopped there. I don't believe the trains themselves were marked as such. This is based on what was written in Seeing New York, which came out in 1976.
Steve: That's true but since the roll signs had no provision for such a sign I wonder if the trains carried cardboard placards or something.I know the station had "A" or "B" or "AB" signs posted but I wonder if they just relied on PA announcements.
Regards,Larry,Redbird
I have tried to confirm this with a map, which I cannot find anywhere On-Line; but I seem to remember a time when the "J" was both a circle and a diamond on the map, the diamond indicating the rush hour "J" Express, the circle indicating the all times "J" local. The only confusion would be if you got on a train at a "AB" station, otherwise you would know if you were on a train making "A" only or "B" only. When I rode this line in the later 60's and early 70's, in rush hours you could ALWAYS tell without looking at any signage...the Exp trains always were SRO at the very first stop 168th ST, and got more crowded as they went inbound, the locals never got a crowd prior to Bway-ENY where generally everyone got off switching to either the "L", an Exp "J" or went downstairs to take the "A/E"'s.
The "KK" was an interesting trial; I wonder if it would have been more successful if it had run EXP in Bklyn; it MIGHT have been a somewhat quicker ride to lower Manhattan, than taking the E/F or the "A" from Southeastern Queens. Of course, something would have been needed for local service between Myrtle and Bway-ENY, so I doubt it would have worked out.
Someone has posted a query about utilizing the Atlantic Ave corridor LIRR for service to continue into Manhattan....wow..sure would be a FAST trip from Jamaica, even making Woodhaven, Eastn Pkwy, and Nostrand...altho Fulton and the "A/C" is just two SHORT blocks away ...stations before Flatbush Ave! Made that sometimes on the way to school when I was running late..really quick! For sure if it could be done it would divert a WHOLE LOT of folks from the "E/F" and possibly "J" lines in the rush hours. The cost benefit would have to be judged!
What about some of the more creative visitors to this page bumping heads into designing baseball hats with the "subway" logo (with Dave's permission) so that we can identify ourselves?
Especially with the spring and summer weather coming up!
Oh, you know what happens when things start to get into the "merchandise mode".
First the hats, then the books and t-shirts, and then "Subway Buffs and the women who love them on the next Jerry Springer":)
That's a great idea. Whenever I'm on a Transit Museum tour, I'm always wondering who are the people from SubTalk.
And how about shirts with our SubTalk names on them!!!
Yeah, it has nothing to do with "merchandising" just one simple thing to identify each other like a club/
Souds good to me. I know that by now I must have run into some fellow SubTalkers (and BusTalkers).
Wayne
Thats a great idea. Maybe that could be possible. I know i probably see lots of you on those trips. Specaly on the Low V trip. I'm usally talking to TSS Morrison before the trip starts to get some insite on the trip. I bring the radio and my son brings the Scanner. It a fun event. I'm usally in the last car when leaving Grand Central.
Before we go ahead we need to ask our beloved site host if we can do this project. We could add say a dollar or two to the cost with the extra going to site expenses.
Davwe- how about it-do we have your permission
I think it's a great idea but the "Subway" part of logo isn't mine to give away. I'll ask Jason what he thinks. The design would probably work better with the "Subway" token logo up top and "www.nycsubway.org" written out below rather than the way I have it in the banner. Easier to read, probably will look better too. Anyone know how to get embroidered patches made?
-Dave
I have arranged for some custom embroidery in the past year, both for my employer and for a model RR group. There is an initial setup charge that can get to be very expensive for a complex design; I suspect, unfortunately, that the multi-token logo would be prohibitively expensive unless it could be amortized over a thousand pieces or more. Perhaps an outline of a subway car (for all you Redbird fans out there, a red outline on a black hat might be nice) with www.nycsubway.org shadowed behind (www.[subway car with subway written on the side].org)? David, if you can get the approvals from Jason and whoever else might be needed, post it here and I will contact you offline about getting an estimate. I'm not an artist, so there will need to be some discussion in this forum of the desired logo and a volunteer to prepare a .gif file that can be used by the embroidery firm.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There may be some argument as to which car should be depicted, since most of us have our own personal favorites (R-10 for myself; slant R-40 for Wayne, etc.). However, a Redbird would be a good choice, since they seem to be loved and appreciated by almost all of us Subtalkers.
Just a thought.
If we do go with this - I guess I need to get another handle. it would be kind of boring to have a shirt or hat with "Wayne Johnson" printed on it :-).
Last night I took subway to Penn Station, LIRR to Lynbrook then N32 bus home. When boarding N32, I thought I would get a free transfer as
I was within 2:18 limit. When I dipped, the farebox deducted $1.50.
I know that when I transfer at Mott Av (Far Rock) A train to N32 it
is always a free transfer. How does the bus farebox know when to
accept a transfer from the subway. Does the driver program at certain
stops. Sounds too complicated to me. Please clarify.
The time limit for a free transfer is officially two hours. Sometimes it adds up to asnother 18 minutes but dont count on the extra time. the program is at the main computer in Brooklyn. Station agents and/or bus operators have nothing to do with the programming
The time you 'swiped in' to the metrocard system is recorded on the card (along with what subway station or what bus route) Your second swipe, the equipment reads the time/location off the card. If the what/where info allows a transfer, (ie, not a subway-subway or NB Bx1 to NB Bx2, for ecxample) a simple math equation (based on a central time check that is uploaded to the buses, and directly to the computers in the turnstiles) takes the time encoded on the metrocard and subtracts it from the current time. If the result is <2:18, you get the transfer. Otherwise, a fare is deducted. That' the simple version, I suppose. My girlfreind wrote a program that simulates the way this works for her C++ class...
-Hank
Okay, so it sounds like I should have gotten a free transfer. I was
definitely under 2:18.
Is it possible that it is set up so that transfers can
only be made to Nassau County buses from lines that
intersect with those buses? That would explain why it
would work from Far Rockaway, but not from where you boarded the train to get to Pennsylvania Station.
On second thought--that can't be either. The system can't know that you didn't take an A from Pa.Station to Far Rockaway. Could the buses somehow only accept MetroCard transfers from certain locations?
You would be surprised how much data is recorded on the MC & how big the tables are in the farebox.
Our Vault Pullers know every time they do a major update, i.e. the Probe time slows down ...
Mr t__:^)
On second thought--that can't be either. The system can't know that you didn't take an A from Pa.Station to Far Rockaway. Could the buses somehow only accept MetroCard transfers from certain locations?
There IS a "map/table" built into the system so that not ever customer gets a free Transfer.
Basically the intent is to provide a free Transfer if you're continuing a trip, i.e. going North, transfer to a connecting North or East/West line. S-o-o-o-o subway-LIRR-LI Bus wouldn't count.
At this depot we discovered that the TA brain surgeons at software central had forgotten a few legitimate transfers (they were local to express bus transfers where the customers were being charged 4.50 vs. 3.00. i.e. "Step Up fare" vs. 1.50 + 3.00). We told them ... they corrected the "table".
Mr t__:^)
From what I recall of the original Metrocard brochures, LI Bus transfer rules regarding transfers from the subway are pretty detailed.
The rules seemed to indicate that you could only transfer from subway to bus at the subway station. Once you'd made that transfer, you can transfer to certain other LI Bus routes, but not all. One example that I know of is that you can't go Subway to Jamaica, N4 to Lynbrook and then N32. I have no idea why. (someone once speculated that it was because the N32 already has a subway connection at Far Rock).
I have tried to go subway-LIRR-LI Bus a few times (N15 at Rockville Centre, N79 at Mineola, N32 at Lynbrook) -- it's never worked.
In the case of the N15 and the N79, they may be programmed not to accept subway transfers without an intervening LI Bus transfer. On the N32, it would seem that there must be some way that the card reader knows that it isn't at Far Rock.
As I theroized in another part of this thread ... I feel that the "Free Transfer" routes are programmed into the Farebox "Tables". Your comments seem to add to this theory.
Mr t__:^)
P.S. Understand that once you get the first free Transfer, just ask the friendly bus driver for a paper/mag Transfer and you COULD keep riding a bus all the way to Montauk, such a deal !!!
Mr t__:^)
I saw a tease this morning that FOX News At Noon is going to have a piece on subway cleanliness.
I suppose that the TA is finally going to address the trash problem on the F train which has been hip deep in litter and spills for longer than anyone can remember. I don't ride every line but think most people would agree that the F train is far and away the most neglected as far as cleaning goes and now that the reliablility of the service along the F line has fallen into such steep decline, it seems the TA has been left with no choice but to throw F riders some kind of bone.
If anyone has a chance to watch FOX at noon, please post a critique.
Thanks.
ill be coming into town this week...is there any newsstand that reliably has the Funpass in the WTC???
Thanx...
I've found the FunPasses at the stand on the PATH fare-entry level (it's the island stand... not the one next to the escalators).
Todd--I bought a few about a month ago at the Hudson News Stand next to the escalators. I guess they both have them.
Hi Guys,
Just wanted to know if there were any subway fantrips scheduled for 1999? The MTA used to do this in the 1980s every now and then but such trips have become less and less frequent. Though, I can't understand why since most of those fantrips would occur on Sundays when service levels were reasonably low servicewide. Also, does anyone know how much a fantrip would cost?
Cheers,
MIKE
For subway fan trips, check out the Nostalgia Trains run on occasion by the Transit Museum. Their web site is at http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/museum/index.html
It's not all-encompassing - the ERA usually runs one each year in the fall, and it's possible that someone else might arrange for one - but it's a start.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Trip costs range from $25 for the Nostalgia Train to $40+ for the Railway Preservation Corporation's Lo-V Fantrips. There have been 3 Lo-V fantrips in the past 3 years all during September. I'm sure there will be another one this year.
--Mark
I should have asked this in my last message....does anyone know if there will be any R-10, R-16 or R-30 fantrips in 1999? If so, can someone please tell me the date and what the cost will be. I would be on the next plane up to NYC!
Cheers,
MIKE
There aren't any R10, R16, or R30 cars in "service" for fan trips. There are 2 R10's and several R16's still around but they're not in good enough shape to run. I heard some talk of a possible R1/9 trip with some of the RPA cars but that's just a rumor. Coney Island has also begun to restore R4 491(ex 401) for possible future trips. The Low-v's will probably make a trip or two this year. I heard the D-types are heading in for work; maybe the Standards will finally come out of restoration for a fan trip...
I **know** for a fact that there are R-10, R16 and R-30 trains hidden somewhere in the system. But no one wants to fess up and tell us where. Could someone "anonymously" post the whereabouts of some of these subway trains. I found two R-16s over by the Coney Island yards off Shell Rd (??) or was it Stillwell Avenue? They were painted red- same shade as the IRT redbirds. But where are the rest? And I'm not talking about the yellow worktrains.
Cheers,
MIKE
Hey Mike These is few Old Subway Cars Hidden at Yards. There is only 5 R16 and i don't know there any R16 somewhere at Yards. #6305 & #6339 are at Coney Island Yard, #6387 are at NYTM, #6398 are at TMNY, and 6452 are at used to be P.S.248 at Brooklyn now NYCT Training Facility. R10 is at Coney Island Yard, and #3189 is at Pitkin Yard for Training Car. R30 #8392 is at Coney Island Yard and #8506 is at NYTM. I don't know there any more R10,R16 and R30 subway cars out there.
Heh. You guys must have the same dreams I do. Only mine is the LIRR has a secret fleet of MP-54s that they use when I'm not around ;) I know it's a dream too, because in the dream, when I finnaly find the fleet, it's in pristine shape =)
On monday while working on the 4 line I saw the following:
While passing the Concourse yard, from the elevated structure I saw what looked like 2 graffiti(sp? sorry) cover R 10's. This was at the very North end of the yard in the area were they are storing wrecked
R 62's (or are they R 62a's?).
Thats a R 62 witch was desroyed in the 14 St. wreck.
The cars at Concourse are R12's or R14's, one of them might be 5851.
Why those trains sitting at Concourse Yard? Are those cars going to scrapped or repair?
Wow....those look like R-12s to me (don't recall the R-14 series) circa 1947 or so. Shorter version of the R-10. Wow- I have never seen these cars at the Concourse yard. Too bad their condition is so poor. Perhaps the MTA wouldn't mind giving those cars away (for a few bucks, of course). They are obviously not worth salvage for the MTA- but to others, hmmmmmmmm. I have visions.....
Cheers,
MIKE
Those are not R-10s. They are R-12s or R-14s. I don't remember which.
There is an old story about an NYCTA employee some years ago who kept moving the Low-V cars around from yard to yard under cover of darkness to keep them from being scrapped. Whether or not this is true, I don't know but I think the story is in Stan Fischler's first book. In any event, there are few New Yorkers today who look at the Redbirds as a nostalgia item, but in 10 or 20 years they will be remembered fondly as the 'old' trains. The main line cars from R-17 to R-36 are probably the biggest fleet of standardized subway cars ever built. Except for paint and some details, they looked alike, MU'ed with each other and served well for forty years. They also could MU with the various cars built for Flushing too, the R-12, R-14, R-15, R-33WF and R-36WF. Hopefully a train of these compatible cars will be saved for the Museum Fleet. An early single unit(R-17 to R-22), an R-33WF, and a pair each of R-26, R-29, R-33 and R-36WF would make an interesting museum train exhibiting the subtle changes which took place as these cars evolved. With the exception of the early car, all of these are still in service and could be selected by condition for preservation.
By comparison, the R-16, R-27 and R-30 never were as dominant on their division as the Redbirds. Standardization was lost with the arrival of the R-32, and each successive order was altered in some way until the arrival of the R-46 which was a close match for the R-44. Thus while the B-division had variety and small groups of cars, the A-division had standardization. The one thing I miss from the early MTA days is the Blue Stripe. It made the cars a little brighter in appearance.
Well, you already have four such cars at the Transit Museum, each in its original livery. And they're all coupled together! Voila!!
I never missed the MTA blue stripe, because I associate it with the decline of maintenance and the rise of graffiti on the subways in ther 1970s.
On the other hand, I wouldn't mind seeing the World's Fair bluebird paint scheme on the 7 one more time before they retire the R-33/36s
I thought the silver-and-blue scheme was nice, since once the older equipment had been repainted, everything looked uniform. It was unfortunate that the graffiti epidemic hit shortly after the repainting began. Deferred maintenance only compounded things.
A friend at work (x-DivA Conductor) says he heard that cracks are being found in the underbody's (not the trucks) of R44/46's. Anyone hear anyting about this?
I didn't get a chance to follow up further with him.
Sorry Dave, didn't see the thread about this down below. Dang I've been gone too long.....
Ugh
I wonder what type of turnstiles everyone likes on subtalk? I like the 1922 General Electric turnstiles with big wood spoked wheel used on the IRT. I call them the "crashing bahemoths". They make a neat thuck noise when the token is deposited in the separate box with the counter. These turnstiles should have been retrofitted with a separate add-on box with a Cubic Western swipe reader. They need to be at Fulton Street and Wall Street stations on the Lexington Avenue IRT for historical value of the station. NEAT STUFF!!!!
Weren't those turnstiles also used on the IND as well? I liked them, too. Roosevelt Ave. still had the old wooden turnstiles until only a few years ago. Even the station signs above the platforms were still original until recently. Too bad they weren't kept.
The IND turnstiles were different that the 1922 GE powered off the third rail.
What is your favorite abandoned station?
City Hall
Although hopefully not permanently abandoned, my favorite is the BMT Canal St. station for the Manhattan Bridge tracks. I have a lot of early memories waiting there for the Brighton Express to go to Brighton Beach.
As far as abandoned elevated stations - the upper level of Broadway-Myrtle.
my favorite is the ninth ave (bklyn) lower level culver shuttle stop boarded the culver shuttle here many times in the late 60s and early seventies until it was discontinued in 75 also crocodile dundee movie was filmed here...
Worth Street. Buried down there somewhere, Heins & LaFarge's original cartouches still adorn the walls.
Wayne
I have a great fondness for the 91st Street Station. Back in the 1970's when NYC was too broke to pay for public schools (we had a half day every Monday and Friday), and Law enforcement (you remember the '70s don't you?), back when the Upper West Side was filled with vacant lots and 2 story buildings along Broadway. Back when Amsterdam Avenue was dangerous, we use to poke around down there and marvle at the wasted past of a city that once was but could never be.
the one that billy batson used to become captain marvel.
For some reason there is not that much notice on a major service disruption this weekend. There is no No. 1 service from 96 St to 137 St.
So No. 1 trains will run from 137 St. to 242 St. on the Bronx end.
Then the other service is No. 1 trains will run from 148 Street-Lenox Term. to South Ferry. To make things more intresting the No. 2&3 trains will make all local stops from 96 St. to Chambers St.
This sounds like a very crazy G0. Also some crews are doing 4 trips out of 148 St. I thank god only have 3 trips
Sounds like trackwork from 96 to near 100th. When I see the official GO summary I'll post more info.(from 103 to 137 there are 3 tracks so it has to the stretch from 96 to near 100th)
Last weekend they did some Electric work North of 116 St on the Downtown Local.
Please note theres a change in this GO. There is NO No. 1 service from 137 St.-BWAY to South Ferry. The No. 3 Line service is spilt. There will Be No. 3 trains running local from 148 ST-Lenox Term to New Lots Ave with regular 9 car trains. Also the second service is from 148 ST. Lenox Term. local to South Ferry running 10 cars with the No. 1 line cars with No. 1 crews.
Satuarday on my tour I found that the No. 3 signs confussed lot of people. Between South Ferry and 96 ST. People keeped asking wheres the No. 1 train or wheres the local. Is this an Exp. Does this train go to Brooklyn. The Plublic Adress Systerm was working but the passendgers just did't get it. To make thing worst some New Lots bound No.3 trains were reroute Exp. and when you have two No.3 train making a connection it got more confussing. One Conductor saying "This is a Brooklyn bound No. 3 train" and the other "This is a South Ferry bound No.3 train". that was a sample of what it was like.
Please note theres a change in this GO. There is NO No. 1 service from 137 St.-BWAY to South Ferry. The No. 3 Line service is spilt. There will Be No. 3 trains running local from 148 ST-Lenox Term to New Lots Ave with regular 9 car trains. Also the second service is from 148 ST. Lenox Term. local to South Ferry running 10 cars with the No. 1 line cars with No. 1 crews.
Satuarday on my tour I found that the No. 3 signs confussed lot of people. Between South Ferry and 96 ST. People keeped asking wheres the No. 1 train or wheres the local. Is this an Exp. Does this train go to Brooklyn. The Plublic Adress Systerm was working but the passendgers just did't get it. To make thing worst some New Lots bound No.3 trains were reroute Exp. and when you have two No.3 train making a connection it got more confussing. One Conductor saying "This is a Brooklyn bound No. 3 train" and the other "This is a South Ferry bound No.3 train". that was a sample of what it was like.
All in a days work David. No matter what signs you would put on the trains during that kind of a G.O., people would still be confused.
I'm just glad I was'nt there. ;-)
I worked the 5 this weekend and they have split service G.O. there also. There were no problems, and things were great for the crews. Regular crew had no shuttles to make at the end of there regular trips because of single track operation North of 180 St. There's one dedicated shuttle train and seperate crews. This caused 30 min wait on Dyre line. Customers were not happy to say the least.
Something that really irritates the hell out of me whenever there's a GO like this -- SO MANY PASSENGERS ARE IGNORANT!!!!! THEY DON'T KNOW THE FIRST DAMN THING AS TO HOW THE SUBWAYS ARE RUN AND WHY THERE ARE GOs. !!! 9 out of 10 don't even know what a G.O. is!!!
(General Order).
All they know is that service on their line is messed up and they are inconvenienced. A classic example happened when I got off the #2 train yesterday at Chambers Street to change to the South Ferry 3 train -- I overheard two people (totally confused, mind you), blaming the service disruption on MAYOR GIULIANI.
How more arrogant can a person get?!?!?!
Yes I worked the No. 5 line during those past G.O.'s. The people just get mad waiting for a shuttle. Did you ever work the No. 2 line before the Lenox REHAB. Going from E 241 to Flatbush was a nightmare.
My first day on the road as a Conductor was 01/06/97. I think the first time I worked the #2 was during the Invert. My first month was almost exclusivly on the #6. The first day of the Invert I was on the platform at 96st(Westside). Everybody was confused, including me!
When you say nightmare, #2 line pre invert, would you please elaborate.
The 30 min wait between shuttles on Dyre stinks, and it was cold this weekend. At 180st this weekend I was called an A**hole, Jacka**, Bald headed f**k, and countless other mumbelings. For every shuttle, 3 #5 trains terminated at 180st. If you happen to be the Conductor on the third train, Watch out. The costomers from the first and second train were pretty hot under the collar. I just ignored there "Pleasantries" and paid attention to my train which I was cleaning out for a relay.
One guy yelled out from the crowd, "Are we expected to stand here all night?" I could'nt hold my mouth any longer. I turned to him and said, "No sir, you are not expected to stand here all night. During these times when we are upgrading and rebuilding your transit system we do appreciate your patiance and cooperation, if you have another question it would be my pleasure to assist you". People started to smile and laugh, most had seen the abuse I took walking down the platform. Now while walking back, most must have thought I would've snaped.
So now who is the real A**hole.....
What I went by nightmare was Holding doors from 3 Ave to 96 St some stops waiting 3 mins for them to let the doors go. Then 96 St if that was your last stop they yell "HELL NO WE WON'T GO". So in lost my cooland said Ok I'll wait in till hell frezes over I get payed to wait for you to get off so this train can go back Brooklyn.
I also worked the No. 6 Line in 1997-98
I have 208 Daily and 210-6 Sat last pick i had
212-6 Daily and 202-6 SA
Ok David, you were talking about the period during the Invert. The first few months were a nightmare. Particularly during the time of the day when the whole invert. inverted, around 12 in the afternoon. They had some real cool jobs during the invert. There were jobs in the PM were you had a Put in at 96 st to flat. then back to 241st, and you were done. The AM had the same jobs just in the opposite.
And boy were those AM jobs fun during the first few weeks. Nothing like getting a train to 96th St and telling everyone (again) that this is the last stop, there is no Bronx service from here, go back to Times Sq. and shuttle over to catch the 2.
Sounds like some good PR (public relations) work on your part. What did that guy have to say after your spiel?
There are times when I have to deal with impatient and irate customers in my line of work, and while no one has ever cussed me out, my first reaction would be, "I'm no worse than you."
The guy said nothing, and I just walk on back down the platform to the crew room, hopeing no one said anything else. Which they did'nt. If you were to say "I'm no worse than you" and confrontation ensued, you would be wrong. I know it's difficult, but the TA does not want you escalating a situation. I live it every day. I am not perfect, but I have read there Blue Book (instructions related to customer relations) and they want us take abuse in stride and to say your sorry as often as possible.
When these situations occure, I think about the almost $20.00 hr I will be making and do I want to lose a day or more of pay because of this IDIOT! I say no. Then I think Blue Book: Yes sir, No sir, I am very sorry sir, can I help you with alternate travel sir..........I think you get the idea.
When you put it that way, you're right. You don't want to lower yourself to their level. One of our guiding priciples in my company is respect for the individual. While it doesn't mean be nice to people, it also doesn't mean be rude and obnoxious. Fortunately, the number of individuals who do hurl gutter epithets constitutes a very small minority.
If I may step into this with another perspective...I am a high school and ASA softball umpire, and one of the first they tell us about handling arguments is: If you answer an irate person with a civilized answer, the irate person usually has no idea how to handle it. Also, we are told to count to ten, because usually again the irate person will run out of things to yell by then (USUALLY....). I have been a working umpire for 8 years now, and I think Ive only ejected about 2 people the whole time......
How would you deal with a Leo Durocher type of personality? How about Earl Weaver? I know I'm getting off base here (no pun intended).
I too worked this G.O. People do not listen. I would tell them there is no number 1 and thery'd ask for the 9! I'd tell them there is no number 1 and no number 9 and they'd say "where is the number 1".
I would announce each arriving train-reeling off the list of stops and still they'd say "Does this go to 96th street?"and oh yes- sometimes the tower would slip a train in on the express track and they'd sday that we dont know what we are talking about! Ah, Life!
Face it, NYC has plenty of sheep and sheep are just plain stupid. If you take a sheep and turn it over it can not roll over-it will literally die that way while a dog or cat will roll over.
Some people did get the message. I even had some who actually told some of the sheep! (and yes, some of the sheep did move!)
That is part of working with the public and yes, I do enjoy my job. I enjoy working G.O. jobs because I can help customers one on one rather than behind glass.
where you on the Plat at 96 St or were you on the road?
Anyway I couldn't put that any better then you did it was real messed up and Times Sqaure mad it worst.
I was on the platforms at Times Square. I spent most of the time uptown but I also did Downtown. The ower did not help matters when they sent some "surprise" trains down the express track.
I did get a thrill Saturday Night/Sunday AM- I saw a track crew remopve and replace a section of rail--fascinating. They first used a huge wrench to loosen the bolts, knocked out the retaining clips, sawed through the joint and then in a tug of war lifted the new rail into place with choreographed moves like the Rockettes and then reassembled the rail. My hat off to the track crew (and their supervision for letting me watch while I was doing my own job and for ansawering my questions.)
You hit the nail right on the head - people do not listen, plain and simple. On the one hand, you almost want to say, "What part of that don't you understand?" Then again, you'd probably get written up for saying something like that, so it's not worth it.
BTW, I don't suppose the track crew formed a chorus line once they were finished and started kicking their legs up in unison the way the Rockettes do at the end of each and every dance routine they've ever done (Yes, I've seen the Rockettes at Radio City Music Hall a few times).
That they did not do! They went on to another section of rail. By the way, the rail section weighed only 1300 pounds!
Why do sheep need shepards? Because they are STUPID, will eat the grass down to the roots, and then stand there and starve. The shepard's main job is to move the sheep around so they can't eat the grass down (and kill the grass), and also protect them from the preditators.
Just like some humans.
I've learned something after almost 20 years on this job: Don't come to work looking for intelligent life because there is none here.
I know that's cynical, but you really have to let it go in one ear and out the other. It is not worth losing your job over somebody who is really complaining to your uniform, not to you personally.
Thats the exact same attitude I try and take every day. I let them have there say, and then I ask, "Is there anything else I can help you with?" It's not easy, and when I start to lose my cool I think, I like this job, I'm a professinal(glad spelling is not critical) and I'm not earning $6.00 an hour.
Oh yea, every now and then someone will ask "what are you a wise ass?"
I will say, "absolutly not sir, it is my desire to assist you in all area that I can control." That will usually shut them up.
On Monday 2/15 I rode the #3 from 96/Broadway to Park Place. The conductor on my train (left 96 @ approx 11:30 AM) made excellent annoucements at every stop - "#3 making all local stops to New Lots - change at Chambers St. for South Ferry train." Most customers seemed to understand the GO.
Also - there was am armada of buses waiting on the NB side along Broadway to swallow up #1 customers - so nobody was waiting long to board an uptown bus. Interesting to note that many buses' SB destination signs read "#1 Subway to 96th St" (did not notice a similar NB sign). Apparently one advantage to the digital signs is that almost any destination can be programmed in.
Two questions:
(1) What work was being done that required suspension of #1 service between 96 and 137?
(2) How come the NYC Transit web site made no mention of this in its summary of service disruptions?
Anyone out there have the answers to the above?
While this question is directed to our resident Railroad Clerk (subway-buff@mindspring.com) anyone else should feel free to respomd if you have information.
In the course of an average weekday during your shift, approximately what percent of total fares are still paid with the token. I am talking about what is deposited in the turnstiles not how many tokens you might sell.
To any Bus Drivers out there - on one of your averages runs what percent of cash fare is paid by the token?
First: our title is Station Agent.
Tokens vary but on the average in manhattan it is 65-80% MetroCard. In some stations such as East Broadway (F), 36thSt (N/M/R) the token sales are near 50%.
Some stations I have worked (I cant remember which ones) still sell more tokens (Pulled from the wheels) then cards.
Another item to consider is token sales--what I push out of the booth. During AM and PM tours (Shifts) we empty the wheels 2-3 times during our tour plus when we start. Those tokens are then re-sold to someone else.(meaning we might pull the same tokens from the wheels 2-3 times during our tour. I have seen tokens with colored nail polish, paint, etc. and have seen them 2-3 times during my tour.
I hope this answers your question.
I get the general idea.
Getting rid of the tokens in a year or so is going to be tough for the TA in some stations.
Thanks to all
An interesting twist. Station Agents no longer work in a "Token Booth". We now work in a "Station Service Booth."
I asked the question yesterday in training about tokens phaseout and the answer was that "they" do not know when the token will go away.
We have been discussing our workload--we now have something else to do! When we get deliveries-be it MetroCards, Tokens, Senior Citizen, Disabled or Block Tickets we must use our terminal to issue a receipt to the delivery person. If they deliver tickets and cards and tokens/money we have three receipts!
We also now have to enter our closing info into the terminal or face discipline if we wipe out the info!
At some point they claim they'll do away with our manual paperwork but like the death of tokens I'll believe it only when it happens.
***opinions expressed in this post are my own and not those of MTA or NYCT****
Based on useage, i.e. customer deposits ... at this DOT "private" depot ...
- Cash, about 20%
- Tokens, about 2 % (tokens used to be equal to cash)
- MC (all forms), about 80 %
As you might expect, it's more important that the farebox records the MC dips then it used to be ... well here anyway, at the TA they don't care quite so much since they already have the money.
Don't jump all over me on this ... I mean that the TA bus folks care more about service, while we have to care equally about service & farebox operation :-(
Mr t__:^)
You may want to cosider TA bus revenue to base metrocard use on. With the DOT routes, on weekends and non-rush hours, the fare is one dollar payable with coins. So, you if you are not going to transfer to a subway or an express bus, pay with change and ask for a paper metrocard transfer to another local bus.
Paul, I assume that all the DOT "privates" fareboxes work the same as ous, i.e. at 10 AM the farebox AUTOMATICALLY changes the local "fare set" to ONE dollar vs. 1.50. It is also called the "shoppers special". From 3 to 7 PM it goes back to full fare. At dispatch central, in our depot, we broadcast a reminder to the drivers. There's also a "off peek" fare on the express routes. Now I have ASSUMED that you still get a free Transfer to the subway when you pay the dollar by MetroCard. If this wasn't the case folks would have to pay twice & I'm sure Rudy would have heard an earfull about it.
P.S. You can't get a paper/mag Transfer from an Express bus, i.e. the farebox won't issue one, so you have to use a MetroCard there to get a free Transfer.
P.P.S. We still carry some of those long paper things for folks that want to transfer between our Express buses in Queens.
Mr t__:^)
Paul is correct & I'm wrong, sorry about that.
I actually called upstairs to confirm what I thought then made the mis-statement, then the dispatcher saw me & corrected himself.
So, you have to pay in cash off-peek to get the Shoppers Special fare
Mr t__:-(
Please tell me there is a good set of plans for this beast available. I REALLY want to build a set. Photos anyone?
Thank you.
There has been some discussion today about our old friends the R-16's.
There was an incident back in either the late 60's or early 70's when an R-16 from the Concourse Yard joined up with some R-17's for a run on the Jerome Av Line. The train apparently made it as far as the Kingsbridge Rd Station and managed to scrape the platform a bit before the crew realized the mistake.BTW the R-16's managed to cover quite a few bases back before Chrystie St. They provided all service on the #15, all pm service on the # 14 as well as the occasional run on the #10 or #16. It was a real treat to see them there because it was the only time you got to see the #10 or #16 signs displayed.
I had heard about an R-10 mixed with some R-12/14's being brought up the ramp onto the line, and a rumor anout the R-16 being tested on the Pelham line (must have been trucked to pelham yard.
I had just asked on another thread whether signals and through-spans block the wider cars as well as the platforms.
The Multisectionals also displayed #10, 13, and 16 signs depending on which route they ran on. I read in Subway Cars of the BMT that their sign mechanisms didn't work properly in later years; consequently, they often displayed incorrect markings.
Anybody catch the story on Grand Central Tonight On 60 mins. II?
It basically showed the "bad" Grand Central Story from 10 years ago on homless, violence, etc.. Then They showed the "new" GCT.
One thing they metioned that all the homeless are gone, but there not.....they just moved to the GCT subway station. Check it out any night.
Yes I saw that and could not beleve the lies I heard about the Homeless being taken off the street. That one homeless man looked like the one I saw Panhandleing on a Uptown No. 1 at Times Sqaure. Thats no suprise since the No. 1 Line seems to have more homeless then any other IRT line I've worked on.
I agree, it seems like the 1 trains have a lot of homless on them, also, the last few years it seems like coney island is getting alot more as well.
Can anyone tell me what elevated station in New York has the most
original and ornate features (station houses, stairways, railings,
etc.)?
Right now, the 207th Street station on the #1 line would rank right up there. Lots of gingerbread, fancy ironwork etc. Similar style stations are 125th Street and 215th Street, both on the #1.
Wayne
An you know the new Logo is MTA? I don't really like the new Logo but i like the old Logo like big M Logo. Before the is was big TA Logo. Well the best Logo is big M Logo and i really hate MTA Logo. I don't understand why MTA spent money on new jerk Logo with MTA Logo. From Big letter M to middle T to small A .
In the Ny Daily News for Thursday February 11, page 28 and page 29, there is an article on the subways losing the war on dirt.
The dirtiest prize is the E train and the cleanest is the #7 train.
After reading this article your thoughts are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
I hope this subject is ok.
Also there is an article in the Thursday February 11 NY Post page 7 on the cleanest and dirtiest subways in NYC.
Your thoughts are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
I agree with the MTA that the Straphangers are not truley able gauge the amount of grime in the subways. My line, the D, is usually filthy but last weekend it was spotless. If the Straphangers had checked it last weekend it would have been voted the cleanest even though it's not. Probably the cleanest are the cars which are used the least, or for the fewest stops like the shuttle trains and the dirtiest are the ones that run 24 hours with the most people. The subways could definitely be cleaner but there are more pressing issues (2nd Ave. subway).
Are there more pressing issues? It seems to me that the cheapest and easiest thing to fix is the cleanliness of the subways. All it will take is a few more personnelle on each end of the line to go through and clean it, five minutes on each end is plenty of time. I'd imagine that it would be cheaper than running more trains. I get the N train coming right out of Ditmars, it is often dirty when I get on. Clearly it had not even gotten a once-over.
Obviously you exaggerate. It would take far more than 5 minutes in each terminus to clean the trains to an acceptable level. With the strength of the unions, no doubt the cost to keep the trains clean is only slightly less than the cost to build the Second Avenue subway.
Sometimes cleaning the trains is not simply a matter of sweeping and mopping. If you doubt me, take a trip to Parsons-Archer Station any night between 1Am and 5 AM. Upstairs you have the E line (10 cars) and downstairs you have the J line (8 cars). You would think that if there were 25% more cleaners upstairs than downstairs, both trains would be equally clean. Not hardly the case. You can count them if you want to but there are more homeless on the E trains than there are passengers on the J. The homeless come on with foul smelling bundles and fouler smelling clothing. They make cleaning the cars so difficult that some trains do not get adequately cleaned durring the night. By the AM, some cars smell so badly that some people opt to stand in a crowded car rather than sit in one that smells.
Okay, the subways are dirtier. But then, they are also being used by more people. Why does it always seem as if the TA is blamed as the cause of the dirt? Do we want the trains taken out of service more so they can be cleaned? They are swept at the end of the lines, aren't they? What more can the TA do? Maybe we should do something about the cause of the dirt---the inconsiderate passengers who make the mess.
Daily News:
Subways Losing War on Grime
Post:E-Gad, These Subways Are Filthy
There is a very good reason the 'E' train is so dirty. It's a haven for homeless; board one at Jamaica Center any morning and you'll see. It never goes outside; it runs all night; the R-32s that run on it have bench seats, so it's easier to sleep on; you don't get thrown off at either terminal (a la F at 179th; G at Smith-9th; D at 205th; G/R at 71st-Continental). The '7' has similar specifications, except that between underground terminals there are many elevated stops. I am a daily '7' rider and find much homeless paraphanelia every morning at Main Street.
I disagree with the article, as I said in a post on cleanliness yesterday, The F train is far and away the most unclean. The reason for this is Neglect. The TA refuses to clean it. Especially at night when the trains are hip deep in trash, food, vomit and spills. The only other lines might even fall into the same league as the F is because the trash piles so high that the flux of passengers can't help but kick bottles and other debris onto the platforms (which are also never cleaned) when the exit the trains. I'm serious. The doors open and the trash spills onto the platform! The filth situation has been unchainged in the 8 years I have been riding the F. People seem to be complaining a little more these days, but I believe that this is due to the drastic decline in service the line has seen in the last 15 months. Delays, Delays, Delays, Waiting 15 minutes for an F during rush hour (without an anouncement) and then having 3 or 4 trains come in the space of 4 minutes and all of them too full of passengers to even get on. What's more the F often goes express either without an anouncement or, with an inaudable announcement. Not to mention the fact that the PA system is usually turned up to a deafaning screach and passengers must suffer a continuous high pitched for their entire ride. The F is the most unreliable line during rush hour and at night it is far worse. Oh yes, did I mention the trash?
Don't go complaining about the F, you guys have it great. When I'm waiting on the 6th Avenue line for my D train I almost always see to F's go by first. And late at night, the D train is twice as crowded as the F. In addition the D train crawls over to Brooklyn while the F speeds across the river. Finally, you F riders have those brand new trains with the digital signs. Nothing like that on the D. So don't you complain, the rest of us have it much worse.
Actually the D train R-68s (1986) are 11 years younger than the F line R-46s (1975).
The city needs cleaners to clean the subway cars, but i disagree to put work employment program (WEP) to clean the subway cars because they don't belong to MTA and never took the test? I took the test 7 years ago and i pass but i been on waiting list almost 7 years now. I am very piss off with the mayor because of budget cut and i don't think (WEP) shouldn't work for MTA because they lazy and i know how they are. I am sick of tired of hearing about budget but i know they have money and didn't want to spent it to hire more cleaner. Look they hired bus driver,more police, fix on the street and why hired more clearner? Hey city don't be cheap. P.S. i never vote for Rudy because i never trust him and i think he the worst mayor in whole new york city.
Interesting that the Daily News article shows you a picture of the #7 train (I'd recognize those picture windows anywhere) but the caption for the picture infers that it's an E train :)
--Mark
Actually, it can vary from train to train on the same line. Today, #5408 on the "A" was quite clean, while on the same line later, #4041 was an absolute pig sty, food, soda cans, beer cans, etc on the floor. I saw a clean "E" AND a filthy "E" at West 4 one right after the other. The filthy "E", #3540-3541, 3938-3939 etc. all needed a good cleaning. The other trains I rode on today ("Z"s, "J"s, an "R", some "B"s, a "D" and the R110B "C" weren't that bad. "J" #4912-4913 had some ground-in dirt on the floor; maybe they can go over it with the buffer next time it's in ENY yard. There was no litter, however.
The "R" #6011 had litter but the floor looked OK (no stains).
Are the homeless keeping the "E" from being cleaned. I see posters up
that say "This doesn't have to be the end of the line" (staged photo showing 'homeless lady', shot at Court Street), touting an outreach program. What happened to that noble idea? Did that, too, go the way of all flesh?
Wayne
The homeless like the E because it is all underground......that business about homeless outreach is all lip service as the cops don't want to get near those people due to their foul smell would get THEM sick also. You ought to see what a hard time the train crews have getting those homeless off the trains when it is lay up time.....It is hard to keep those E trains clean because they don't lay over too long at the terminals & Parsons-Archer is a very busy place: A mopped floor gets walked on right away and the train goes down the road before the floor has a chance to dry.....the M probably came in as the second dirtiest because there are NO car cleaners assigned between 3PM and 11 PM. There used to be just one cleaner assigned to Met. Ave. on that tour who used to mop spills, vomit and sweep but that job was eliminated.
Lip service,eh? Boy that makes me MAD! Forgive me if I'm sounding like an old hippie liberal, but if they SAY they have a program to combat homeless in the system, and they ADVERTISE it as such, they ought to have such a program in place. The homeless do not belong in the subway, no matter what their circumstances are. I realize there are too many social/political/governmental/behavioral/etc. issues underlying this problem, but if they mean what they say, they should be prepared to back it up with the appropriate action.
Wayne
There is an old homeless man who uses crutches who insists on riding the M shuttle all night. He needs help. He stinks up the cars. He curses me out several times a week because if he is on my trains, I have to get him off twice since the shuttle starts out with 4 trains and goes down to 2 after 1 AM. The cops don't want to be bothered. This guy urinates all over himself and on the floors. We should call the cops you say? Then the cops have a foul attitude with us and the old man comes right back the next nite. The merging of the TA & NYPD forces has made uniformed police presence nil. I think NYPD feels the subway is one large shelter. I wonder how many "homeless squads" are in the Transit Bureau?
Unless I mis-read the post, I think what Bill meant was that there is a program but they are not to be found where they are needed. They seem to avoid the areas like Parsons-Archer terminal.
The homeless also like the No.1 line. In the early hours on the morning there are homeless in every car! Once I saw 6 homeless laying down in the operating car. It seems like they go to sleep between 96 St and Van Courtlandt then panhandle from 96 to 34 st. Then relax from 34 to South Ferry. Two Satuarday's ago i had a homeless person harass my Conductor. So I called Control at Houston St. They said "Blow for police in route". I get to Times Sqaure no cop. The person got off at 72 Street on his own. Now i know if i have a serious problem just sit and wait for the Police regardless of what Control Center Sez. Also I carry a scanner with the Transit Police channels and Police Dispatchor never reported the problem over the air.
I agree with you David - if that were me running that train I would have locked it up tight and started the 3-3's right then and there. These b******s they think society owes them something.
Wayne
Ah, but wait Wayne. The signal for police is long-short-long-short, and Control Center tells us to signal. But alas, the cops were never told in the academy what the signal is! But in my own negative way I'll say this: If they knew the signal, they would probably go the other way!
See my post from yesterday about subway cleanliness.
I read the article this morning and noticed that more or less the expresses are dirtier than the locals.
Anyway, I think all of that comes down to the riders.The people who have the cleaner subways probably have clean streets and homes in their neighborhoods.They respect the way they get around I guess.
Before delving into the rest of the postings in this thread, let me try to clarify the report data. The data was taken from the Passenger Environment Surveys which are done monthly. This was the data compiled throughout 1998. The E line, which was rated (a very embarrassing) worst is a lot cleaner now than it was at the beginning of the year. The data really gives a mean rather than an accurate reading.
A friend of mine has a question. How come a person cannot transfer from the uptown #6 train at Bleecker St to a B,D,F and Q train at Broadway-Lafayette and vice-versa.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Because of the way the platforms are aligned with the IND mezzanine. The southbound Bleeker St platform was extended to the south, enableing the BOT to just break down a wall to connect it to the IND. The Northbound platform was extended to the north, and would require a passageway be dug from the north end of the southbound platform to what is the south end of the northbound platform. Not as easy, since it requires digging under 4 in-service tracks without interrupting service too much, or as cheap as breaking down a wall.
-Hank
I transfer from the D/Q to the uptown 6 every morning. It cuts about 5-10 minutes from my commute to the Grand Central area.
Just use an unlimited ride card and it doesn't cost any extra! And it gives you a break from the underground for a minute. I just wish there were a decent coffee place at the corner.
You can transfer using an unlimited ride card, but it still would be better to have a direct transfer, eliminating the up, down and re-swipe. I think it would be worth it to move the northbound platform to the south, even though this would but it close to Spring Street, which also has a northbound platform which is further north than the southbound station.
In a less political world, maybe they would build a brand new station right at Houston, with entrances on both sides of Houston for each neighborhood and right over the B/D/Q/F, and eliminate both Bleeker and Spring, which are very close together. I'll bet the savings from having one less station to man would pay for the improvement. Moreover, with real estate what it is these days, they could probably rent the unused stations out.
Houston St. from Sixth Ave. to the East River is essentially the `newest' street in lower Manhattan, having been widened out after the IRT's Lafayette St. line (Elm St. back then) and the BMT's Broadway lines were built. That's why you have the unusual situation of no stations on Houston. By the time the IND came along, Houston St. had been expanded to its present width, I believe as a way to connect east side traffic to the newly-built Holland Tunnel. That's way there's no northbound 6 transfer (or N/R transfer for that matter) at Broadway-Lafayette.
Why the TA went with the IND-style `off-center' platforms when they expanded Spring, Bleeker and Astor I don't know. Maybe some of the city transit engineers actually liked the 42nd St-Eighth Ave. station design.
I think is has to do with the buildings along Lafayette St. The line twists and turns all the way from Brooklyn Bridge to 14st, and since the line was opened in 1904, I'm sure many buildings were built that abut the underground (or in some cases, are atop) line.
-Hank
I submitted some photographs of Substation 21 on Willow Place in Brooklyn Heights to be posted on nycsubway.org. I know all will enjoy when and if it gets posted.
The pictures will be posted. Please be patient. Dave is very busy and has many projects waiting to be added. Substation 21 is on the list.
Well lets place blame where it lies... it's more along the lines of "I'm a complete idiot and forgot to meet 'Buff to pick up the photos last night". Sorry 'Buff :(
-Dave
Instead of running hundreds of buses to Manhattan a day, why doesn't the MTA just provide a shuttle connection between SIR and an super express service to Manhattan. Broadway has open capacity via the never use middle tracks (Queensbridge shuttle won't be affected much)and it connects to major lines that distribute passengers to Manhattan. By doing this, they can learn to run trains at a higher speed so they won't have to use as many units. Buses can be reconfigured to act as feeders from Grasmere and only the necessary high-volume express buses need to go to Manhattan (ie. X1,X10,X17,X22[OOPS, most people don't know about that South Shore route under consideration]). If the Manhattan Bridge could be resignaled to allow trains to cross faster than pedestrians, everyone can benefit from this change.
ALL the SI express buses are 'high-volume' at this point. On many trips even the MCI buses are now filled to capacity. Using buses as feeders to the N/R trains would only cause more congestion on the already congested BMT 4th Avenue - Manhattan services.
The Broadway express tracks are currently out of service due to the closure of the south side tracks on the Manhattan Bridge. Up until 1989, they were very much in use; in fact, at one time, there were three express services along Broadway, although they didn't all operate 24/7. One of them was the Sea Beach, or N, believe it or not. I've ridden many an N train on those tracks.
Given the current situation with the Manhattan Bridge, we may never see it fully open to subway traffic again, let alone resignalled.
Some problems, Grasmere only has one staircase, and the overpass is a small one lane in each direction street. Is there room for the buses to line up?
Your not getting any more speed over the bridge. Even with the south tracks open the timing on the grade timers will never be increased in the current state of mind of the TA.
Staten Islanders WANT a one seat ride into the city. Why pay extra and switch modes of transportation?
The plan for the Grasmere Transit Center includes a new station near the Staten Island Expressway.
-Hank
I don't know if you caught this, but the proposed city budget cuts off NYC local tax funded capital grants to the TA. Instead the city proposed that that money will be used for the Astoria to LaGuardia connection and, later, the #7.
I don't know what to think of this. True, the existing system has needs, and I hope this won't be used as an excuse for disinvestment. On the other hand, it seems that if the City contributes more to the TA, the state just contributes less (it cut off capital funding for the MTA years ago) and diverts the MTA's own revenues to the commuter railroads. The suburbs do not contribute anything to the LIRR and Metro North -- the state contributes for them, using money collected in large part in the city. Also, while loss of funds pushes the TA to improve efficiency and cut costs, additional revenues just disappear into the system.
Perhaps this could be part of a "new deal." The MTA must find a way to fund its operating and capital costs using fares, toll surpluses, and its own dedicated taxes. That would free up city money for acutal improvments. And perhaps Nassau and Suffolk would be willing to pay for the LIRR to GCT, rather than expecting the city to do it.
Just to clarify which is the make and which is the subject. Pleas read prior post.
[The suburbs do not contribute anything to the LIRR and Metro North -- the state contributes for them ...]
Well I don't know that I agree with that. I'm pritty sure Nassau & Suffolk put in something ... I do know that is a absolute fact at LI Bus, which is why they exibit some healthy independant thinking, i.e. they don't automatically agree to what the MTA or TA decides.
[ ... re #7 & N extentions ..] Rudy doing politics as usual, but good for him, i.e. if he can get the MTA/TA to do more then STUDY these two extension that would be a good thing.
BTW what's happening with the "5 new lines" ... another study :-(
Mr t__:^)
We as a society have become used to filth. I regularly see people littering on the trains, leaving their trash, spitting out their sunflower seeds, inter alia. This human garbage must be dealt with severely, they degrade the quality of all of our lives. Similarly, those who put out their cigarettes on the ground, do they not think that they are littering? Unbelievable scum these people are. Everytime I ride the SI Ferry I see these animals throw their trash into our harbor. I'd like to throw them overboard. The MTA must crack down, a $500 fine would hit the spot.
I think you have a point here. There is only so much money you can spend picking up after people, if people feel they have a right to litter.
That said, people get sick and there are accidental spills. In the parks, you find more littering when the garbage pails are full (doesn't seem to be a TA problem).
I don't know that a $500 fine will stop anything, since people just won't pay it. In some states when you are caught speeding they put you in jail until you pay or post bond. The loss of time would be a threat to the poor, who can get of paying if they have no money, and to the rich, for whom time is more scarce than money. Two hours delay might be an appropriate penalty for littering.
[I don't know that a $500 fine will stop anything, since people just won't pay it. In some states when you are caught speeding they put you in jail until you pay or post bond. The loss of time would be a threat to the poor, who can get of paying if they have no money, and to the rich, for whom time is more scarce than money. Two hours delay might be an appropriate penalty for littering.]
How about "banishment" as an alternative? Here's how it would work: If a person is caught committing some offense on the subway, he would be immediately served with a notice forbidding him from using the transit system for X period of time. Obviously, the length of X would vary according to the offense. Littering or smoking might be worth a 48-hour banishment, while pulling the emergency cord as a prank could get six months and serious vandalism a lifetime ban.
It's fairly safe to assume that no one will actually obey a banishment. Much the same is true with driver license suspensions - everyone keeps driving anyway. But if someone disregards the banishment and then gets caught in the subway or on a bus, hit him hard, really hard. 30 days' imprisonment without early release under any circumstances would be a nice start. Again, there's a parallel with driving, as operating under suspension is a fairly serious offense. And figure that if "banished" people keep using the subway, at least they'll be on their very best behavoir to minimize the chances of getting caught!
People and cops don't really care about the fine and all they want it $$$$$$ in there pocket. They don't want to pay or spend money on fine. P.S. I don't trust Cops
Then why is the Metro in DC so clean? Stations and car interiors alike are spotless! As I recall, eating and drinking in the system is forbidden, and they mean it -- fines and arrests do occur.
I think that station design has a great deal to do with how people behave. In Montreal and Toronto there is little unfinished surface, everything is tiled, painted and brightly lit. On the other extreme, many Boston stations look like dumps when they are clean. New York falls in the middle, many stations look good and the incentive is there to keep tham that way. However, some stations (especially express stations, and local stations with island platforms) tend to look dirty because the walls behind the tracks are harder to keep clean and reflect less light. If the station is dark and dingy to begin with, people are more likely to use it as a trash recepticle.
Yes, you're right re:WMATA Metrorail. Even the most rowdy passengers do not eat/drink or litter in the system.
The D.C. Metro established the policy on food and drink back when the system opened in 1976, so people they did not get accustomed to bringing (and dumping) those things in the subway. The New York system evolved in an era when all sorts of concessions, vending machines, etc were sold right on the subway platforms, justifying the right in some peoples' minds to leave their trash where they bought it.
Because there are still many news stands within the subway, any kind of food/drink ban in New York would doubtless face legal challenges from here to forever, since the operators would claim the MTA is violating their franchise agreement (D.C. Metro sells its newspapers on the system by way of coin racks at station entrances -- some of the suburban stations will have as many as 20 racks in a row lined up outside)
In addition to the no food or drink policy, I think it may help that the entire system closes nightly for about 5 hours. Since there is no one in the trains then, a complete and thorough cleaning is easy.
-Mike
No one will ever succeed in closing the Subway system at night. It would be political suicide.
(Closing the subway -- political suicide) After all, in whose neighborhood would you put the homeless shelters? The subway is perfect -- it isn't in anyone's neighborhood, at least not for long. That's 75 percent of what late night service is about these days. If it wasn't for all the rules, the could outfit a fleet of retire Redbirds just for this purpose, and move them around the city all night. As it is, the subways are an unofficial shelter system.
Personally, I favor replacing infrequent subway service with frequent bus service in the late lights. It would be cheaper and -- if the buses had a traffic signal over-ride -- faster.
I wasn't advocating closing the subway at night just noting what WMATA does. It would be unthinkable to do that here.
Mike
I hope it doesn't close as many people have no other means of transportation. WMATA Metrorail stops from about 12:30-5 AM and being a New Yorker it drives me nuts.
Wayne
We've discussed this numerous times before. To find lay up locations, to secure stations, to recirculate equipment to serve all stations promptly due to long routes are definite problems. Maybe you don't use the trains overnite, but I can assure you this is a 24 hour system. The only times it is dead is between 2 & 4 AM, except Friday & Saturday nites.
Yes, you are on the right track. Smoking should be banned within 50 feet of TA property, ie, the street near a subway entrance. Right now we have people leaning on the turnstiles and exhailing smoke onto the platoform and they somehow think that that's not a problem. Also, I recomend a $100 fine for throwing a cigarette butt on the street or out a car window anywhere in the state. Jail for multiple offenders. Smoking should be banned in public parks and within 50 feet of a school, library, courthouse or bus stop. Is the city not obligated to provide a clean safe and designated area to wait for a bus? I recomend random a police crackdown two days of every month.
As far as sunflower seeds go, I have seen police officers spitting sunflower seeds in a subway car on more than one occasion and I have also seen people (including one police officer) clipping their nails on the train!
That kind of behavior made me want to bring my portable electric razor onto the subway in protest. After all the TA has no sign telling passengers that they can't shave on the train in the morning.
Yes, its bad, but at least its not the LIRR. The policy of not cleaning the cars on the weekend, combined with a greater sense of entitlement, leads to a mess. I hated riding those things. I do my off peak travel by car now.
People have criticized tha TA for a long time about garbage on the subways and buses, but I've always felt that the passengers are largely responsible for the filth, rats etc. It's very common to see someone eating candy and/or drinking a beverage and they'll put the refuse in the trash - if they're near one. Most of the time it goes on the floor, especially on buses where there are no trash receptacles. Many people also teach this bad habit to their children also. Then what really amazes (and agner) me is that these same people will complain bitterly (and endlessly) about the conditions. Go figure. I know of a couple of individuals that are ready to shoot you if you litter in their homes, but they throw their trash in the floor of the transit system as if it's the designated place for garbage. I admit that I eaten a candy bar, chips/drink a soda on the transit system, but when I did, I always put the trash where it belongs. Sorry for the long post, but this has always been a sore spot for me.
Wayne
There is nothing wrong with drinkin a container of coffee on the train if you throw it away when you're done. As I said before, there needs to be a crackdown on violators. If people who flick their cigarette butts on the street or out their car window (Littering) are never challenged for their offence, then it sends a message that the city is willing to put up with litter in all its forms. That, it is, in effect, official city policy to always look the other way and not care when someone leaves trash on the train or in the park or wherever.
Once again I suggest that they have a special task forcer of a dozen or so officers who write tickets on two or three random days every month. The fine should be $100 to start whith second time offenders facing bannishment from parks or subways or wherever and possible jail time. If you throw a cigarette butt out the window of your car you should get points off your liscence. Two or three offences should lead to the suspension of your liscence or your car should be impounded untill you pay a stiff fine.
You're right something needs to be done. I've been using WMATA's Metrorail for 2 years and the most I've seen is the occasional newspaper and when you do see a newspaper that's been left behind it's always on a seat and not scattered throught the subway car/bus or platform.
Yes, there are too many two-legged rats running around in the Transit system as it is.
In many ways this city is a tradgedy of the commons, with each treating shared property like a free-for-all to be exploited. Remember when a bunch of Scandinavians donated wooden mini-soccer field to a housing project, and a bunch of fun-lovers burned it down for a thrill the first night it was there?
It seems to me that most of us agree that the major
blame falls upon the passengers who make the mess. Isn't
this a quality of life crime? Rudy, are you
listening? The Daily News in the second part of its
editorial(scroll down) today calls for shared blame and
fines:Editorials
The E is the dirtiest of course. It is filled with bums, sorry, homeless people living in their filth.
The second problem is the passengers preference for eating, esp McDonalds and fried chicken.
I am not racist, just making an observation.
BTW, G&D = Gross and Disgusting.
My most striking incident in this catagory occured back in the mid-80s while riding the #5 toward Brooklyn. The cars were the recently restored R-26 types. As the car I was in was crowded, I wanted to move into the next car -- I opened the end door and was about to transverse the anti-climber/treshold plate when my (thankfully) sensitive nose detected a noxious odor. I looked down and saw a nasty mound of crap on the next car's anti-climber! Obviously, a homeless (or maybe non-homeless) commuter thought the IRT cars were public toilets! Needless to say I thanked my nose for saving me a new pair of sneakers!
Anyone else with similar stories?
Doug aka BMTman
I've encountered cars that smell like human crap a couple of times a year. However, you can usually see the poor person responsible for ther smell, someone who can not control himself...
B ut back in the '80's, I lived on the Concourse line and that was probablky the worst one. Homeless people would occuppy a whole car and break into the conductors cab to turn out the lights and/or adjust the heating/ac. This happened on a regular basis. My friends and I referred e cars as "sleeping cars."
Perhaps people would not use the trains as toilets if there were plentyful clean public toilets in NYC
> Perhaps people would not use the trains as toilets if there were
> plentyful clean public toilets in NYC
Maybe. But as a Londoner, have you ever smelled Leicester Square around 7am on Sunday morning? If you've been there you'll know what I mean :-)
-Dave
Dave -- not to mention as a current LIRR rider, I can say that many a time the morning rush hour aboard the M-1s (with unkept bathrooms) can be a REAL challenge to a person's respiratory system if you know what I mean!
Doug aka BMTman
My last post on the subject because it deals more with sociology than it does transit!
[Perhaps people would not use the trains as toilets if there were plentyful clean public toilets in NYC]
Do you really think so? Go into some of the restrooms that are open. People must be really proud of their 'creations'. They never flush so the rest of us can admire their works. Lets face it, some of us are anti-social slobs.
To not be disgusting or converted to residences, a New York Restroom must be staffed. To afford staffing, there must be a charge. Thanks to the New York State legislature, that is illegal.
P.S. in addition to having the 2nd worst credit rating (behind Louisiana), it has now been crowed the 2nd worst managed (behind Alabama) by Governing Magazine.
Oh yes, many times, on average once monthly in the late 60's and early 70's when i lived in Queens and rode the "E/F" and also on the "A". Men pausing between cars and urinating on the sides of the cars; and these were NOT Homeless types or bums, but folks in suits on their way home form work, just too damn lazy to get off and use the restrooms!
Also, on an R38 passing thru W 4th ST, a couple in the midst of intercourse,didn't phase them in the least that the train was in service and picking up passengers..who at least vacated to other cars in the consist..but the look on faces as the train pulled into the station was absolutely priceless!
Also on a "F" between QP & 71st AV..a flasher who repeatedly flashed a mother and daughter....a group of us told the conductor at Roosevelt to have the cops at 71st Ave, and just before the station, we jumped him and held him, witnessed and he got arrested and did some time....so folks this stuff isn't new!!! But is IS G & D!
Well, (we're going back to 1973 and 1974 now) ther was "Old Mary", the Queen of the Queens Boulevard line - an elderly woman in her 60s or 70s who could clear an R44 in no time flat.
Then there was the guy who became violently and DRAMATICALLY ill aboard car #4376 ("F" line betw. Parsons Blvd & 169th Street) - HE cleared the car within 30 seconds, myself included.
Wayne
Last Sunday night, I was checking the 'R' lay-ups along 4th Avenue north of 59th Street. On the train adjacent to 53rd St. we found that a homeless person got onto the train, kicked out the crew door glass, turned on the heat and then moved his bowels in the car. I notified the vandal squad of the NYPD (formerly transit police). The following night, the same miscreant vandalized another 3 R trains in the same area. In the process of vandalizing the 3rd, the vandal squad arrested him and charged him with criminal mischeif and trespassing. Of course, we found out that he has an almost unbelievable number of prior arrests for the same charge. [Of course some fine representative of the legal profession will try his best to get this guy off instead of seeing that he gets the help that he needs.]
Dear Sir/Madam:
I took the BMT R train through the Montague Street Tunnel from
Brooklyn many times, and noticed at the Court Street station, there
is a route indicator for the train operator to select the proper
route of the train. The operator pressed the N/R button as usual for
the R train, but the M button had a message saying: "NO 75-FOOT
SUBWAY CARS PERMITTED ON M LINE!" Why can't the 75-foot R-44s, R-46s
and R-68s operate on the BMT J, L, M and Z Lines? They are all the
same division, with the same clearances for any IND and BMT Line.
Could the R-110BS and future R-143s operate on every IND-BMT
Line? When the R-143s arrive, which cars will be retiring from
passenger service? Which cars will operate through the new 63rd
Street connection when it opens in August 2001? Will the IND-BMT
R-44s, R-46s and R-68s be transfered throught the IND-BMT network?
James Li
> Why can't the 75-foot R-44s, R-46s and R-68s operate on the BMT J,
> L, M and Z Lines?
The curves along the Broadway (Brooklyn) elavated neat the Williamsburg Bridge and the curves at Crescent St are too sharp and can cause these cars to sideswipe each other if thay happened to meet at those points. They were built to handle 67' cars - not 75' cars.
> Could the R-110BS and future R-143s operate on every IND-BMT Line?
Yes.
> When the R-143s arrive, which cars will be retiring from passenger
> service?
This is subject to debate but my thinking is that the R-42s will be the first to go.
> Which cars will operate through the new 63rd Street connection when > it opens in August 2001?
Don't know.
> Will the IND-BMT R-44s, R-46s and R-68s be transfered throught the
> IND-BMT network?
The R-44s and R-46s, probably not. I'm sure there will be some movement of R-68s but I'm not sure what it is.
--Mark
What operates through the 63rd St. connection will likely be determined by what is then running on the Q. It is unlikely that the R-46 fleet would be split up so it will probably continue to dominate the F, G and R.
Here is a possible scenerio, assuming that the R143s do not set off a scrap drive.
The new cars would likely displace R-42s from East New York. By consolidating the R-40 fleet at East New York, the entire R-42 fleet could be assigned to Coney Island for the Q. This would give the Q a consistent appearance, the Slants could take over the M and the J/Z would get a mix of new cars, Slants and R-40Ms
200 new cars displace 200 R-42 from East New York to Coney Island; about 160 of these would be needed for the extended Q.
Swapping the 170+ R-40s at Coney Island for the remaining R-42 cars at East New York would consolidate the R-40 fleet at East New York and the R-42 fleet at Coney Island This would provide 330 cars for the extended Q service and a few spare trains.
The R-32 cars freed from the 63rd St. Shuttle would go to boost availability elsewhere
Since the 143 order is going to be so much smaller than the R-142s, and with the future opening of the 63rd St. link, I don't think any `B' division cars are targeted for the scrap heap any time soon, they're just going to augment the current fleet.
You are correct. The R143 fleet is an "add to", not a substitute for. As for the flip-flop R40/R42, they're probably going to send my favorite Slants from the "L" (4398-4449) packing to CI to beef up the "Q"s, along with the R40Ms. They'll have to pick the 40M's out of their consists; they're all mixed up with the 42s.
Wayne
Has R-143 even been ordered yet?
I do believe they have, sometime back in early January.
The firm order was for 112 units, with an option for an additional 100.
Wayne
R143 112 new subway cars???? Why don't they make over 300 R143 subway cars to replace older subway cars?
Because the Second Generation B Division cars are in such good shape they don't warrant replacing! To wit, 590 out of 600 R32 cars are still rolling after 34 years; 196 out of 200 R38s still going at age 32; 292 out of 300 Slant R40s still going at age 30; 99 out of 100 R40Ms still rolling along at age 30 (the 100th one is in the shop getting a facelift) and 390 out of 400 R42s are still in operation at age 29. That's 97.9375% of the combined fleets, still going, and going, and going...
Increased ridership points out the need for additional cars.
Wayne
Nevermind the fact that many, if not most, of those R 32s are going strong and in good shape too. I'll repeat it again for anyone wjho missed it - I'll be surprised, and awfully dissapointed, if those cars don't make it to at least age 50...
I dare say that the R-32s are probably the best second generation subway cars around, and are in the same class as the BMT standards and Triplex units when it comes to reliability. Not to take anything away from the Redbirds, which are mighty good cars in their own right, but the stainless steel skin of the R-32s and the corrosion resistance it provides will be the single most important factor in terms of longevity.
Even though they still look great, I still think the R-32s looked better with their original blue doors. And if they could bring back the roller curtains on their bulkheads, or at least a LEGIBLE route sign, they'd be perfect.
Let us hope that when the R32s get their second (and deserved) GOH, say, sometime around 2005, they'll rectify the sign situation.
Wayne
I think that we have seen the last of the large scale GOH Programs similar to the one the TA went through during the late eighties and early nineties. During that time, the TA paid Morrison Knudsen alone more than $900,000,000.00, not to mention Buffalo Transit, Sumitomi, and Nab. Since then, SMS, while not a perfect system, has managed to maintain the equipment so that a GOH program would not be necessary. I think the next big overhaul program for the R-32s will be to replace the floors, which are in need of attention. This should insure that the R-32s will survive through the first decade of the 21st century.
If the R-32's go through another GOH, I would also like to see them re-retrofitted with the traditional front sign assemble (perhaps with an electronic twist), and the Transit Authority could do me a personal favor by returning the straps and blue doors.
BTW - I am sending this from Innoventions West Side at Epcot Center down south -- no IRT lines on this west side, though (unfortunately!!!)
Perhaps if the straps are deemed unacceptable, they should install the same kind of handholds that the R38 use. Much more comfortable, reachable by short people and in the corners, the handicapped. And the same lighting too. Yes, blue doors as well, but dark blue on the outside, leave them silver inside.
Wayne
Oh, I loved that light blue shade on the inside of those R-32 doors! The R-38s also had that shade on their door interiors. If the R-10s had the fastest doors in New York, the R-32s get my vote for the smoothest operating doors right from the start. The R-27/30s come in at a close second, and the BMT standards deserve honorable mention. Once in a while, a standard would have a hyperactive door which would whip open and slam shut, literally bouncing off the cemter post.
Actually, the end signs & markers are still on the R32's. They are just covered up.
Yeah, if they were to use the LED-lit dots like the new bus signs, it would be way more visible (and it can be multicolored. They should have blue by then to for the full color spectrum), and why not make them bigger, like the original signs, and why not have a digital destination next to it. Then, they would look pretty much like they originally did
Those signs can be funny because sometimes you can be riding in trains that does not exist. For example, I saw an E train coming in as a W train. The signs on R32 are really bad. But mistakes also happens on most train, on the windows of an R-46 E train I took saids B to 21-Queensbridge and sometimes, R-44 and 46 have the signs in opposite direction like an F sayings its going to 179 St queens when its goin to Coney Island. Also, on R-68s, the window signs sometimes appear as A, M, etc. But the R-32 is the worst, at least all other trains have their front sign straight but not the R-32, they come in in all different sorts of shapes.
That's a good one! It's like the time I saw a "Q" train (it was #3918) signed up as an "O". The R32 can display any letter (A-Z) and any number (0-9). The signs on their bulkheads are totally, utterly, completely useless and they look awful too, like someone with a big fist popped 'em. They really should pull the bulkhead plates, get out their tin-snips or Sawz-All(TM)'s and put in some realistic signs, ones that people with 20-50 vision like me can read.
AND THEY SHOULD CLEAN THE GLASS! How tough is THAT to do?
Wayne
Great Question: Actually, you need a car inspector to remove the sign, then a cleaner to clean the glass and then a car inspector to put the sign back. Same problem for the side signs on the R-68 and R-68A.
Oh dear, I wasn't trying to be snide! I had no idea that it was such a complicated operation! When Peggy and I were on our trip January 28, we discovered a shaded lamp with a cluster of bulbs in one of the stations (I think it was 177th-Parkchester), and one lonely bulb was lit. I remarked to Peggy why don't they change them; I could easily have done it (so I thought), she explained that two people were needed to do it - an inspector to verify that the bulbs were out, and a maintenance person to change them. And to boot, the bulbs are special reverse-threaded ones, so going over to Duane Reade for a package of lite bulbs would have been useless! Go Figure! 8-o
Wayne
It doesn't need to be that complicated. I can assign a Car Inspector to do the entire job. By contract, I can work an hourly employee below his title 40% of the time. Would I do it? I would try not to. Too many things to factor into the mix. The morale of the employee being required to do work of a lower title and the Cleaner who would complain that I'm violating their pick by not assigning them work that they are legitimately entitled to.
By comparison, the maintenance shops are far more flexible than the overhaul shop when it comes to making a repair. For example, if I want to replace an air compressor on a car, I assign 2 car inspectors and in 2-3 hours, it's done. Not in the overhaul shop. You need a CME to disconnect the electrical, an ABM to disconnect the pipes and who knows what to drop the compressor out.
Sounds like an MBTA bus shop job. Start with a sheet metal man to take off the cover. Then an electrician to disconnect the wiring. Next comes a pipefitter to disconnect any pipes. Then the machinist to unscrew the bolts. Next a rigger to get the part out. And after they are all done putting the new part in, along comes the cleaner to polish up the finish. In the carhouse one or two repairmen do it all. Unfortunately, when the Boston El first got buses, they made it a separate division from the rail equipment, and everyone got into the unionizing act...
Even better - I saw one arrive at the Manhattan-bound platform at Queensboro Plaza signed up as the 'X'!!! It wasn't until Whitehall Street that the motorman realized he probably should change it to 'N'.
Back in the good old days, when side destination signs were actually illuminated, I would sometimes see various cars in a train with either the wrong sign, or on occasion, BOTH signs backlit!
Nothing tops a "Coney Island" sign on an R-32 illuminated in green. "57th St." is a sentimental favorite, sine the very first subway train I ever rode on had that destination backlit - in green.
Just in time for their big four-oh celebration!
Here is the proposed 2001 car requirement assignment, from the May, 1997, NY Div ERA Bulletin:
J/Z 80 R-40m, 88 R-42
L 136 R-143 (216 purchased)
M 104 R-42, 48 R-143
N 90 R-32, 50 slant R-40, 140 R-42 (170 assigned)
Q (ext. to 179th) 104 R-68, 168 R-68A
This was before the B & Q switched cars, and doesn't reflect that change, so the B still has the 200 R-40's. So go figure what they'll send out on the Q now. The simplest thing would be that the N keeps 50 R-68's instead of the R-40's, and the Q would be all slant R-40. But can anyone see them sending the R-40's to Queens? I've heard that the 60 ft configuration works better out there (why the E has 32's, and one reason the new cars were made 60 ft again), but would they use the 40's?
This also that the Manhattan Bridge will still be in the present configuration (stage of work) then.
Why on earth would they purchase new cars and send a third of them to a line that is about five local stops long, the M? Its a complete waste of space...
Can you spell OPTO during shuttle operation?
That sounds like future OPTO to me.
I said it before, and I'll say it again: If your system started from Day 1 as OPTO, no problem. (And the data is there to back up the position.) If your system started from Day 1 with 2 man operation, it's bad. (And the data is there to back up the position.)
If it's Boston, New York, or Philadelphia. It's BAD!!!
If it's Baltimore, Atlanta, Cleveland, San Francisco/Oakland - it works!!!
The OPTO / no OPTO arguement will never be solved.
If it's money - it will happen. If it becomes a political question, it might not.
Here in Boston, the Blue Line switched to OPTO a few years ago. Keep in mind, of course, that the Blue Line runs four-car train. There was the usual outcry that crime would rise, etc. And of course the union objected, citing loss of jobs. The compromise was that the T would take the conductors (oops, "Guards") and move some to other lines and promote others to "Inspectors" who would ride the trains and monitor the platforms. Nice thought. What happens in reality? The "Inspectors" often ride in the front cab with the operator, and (guess what?) open/close the doors on the left-hand side so that the operator doesn't have to get out of his seat. This is most often true during off-peak hours.
By the way, the total trip time of the Blue Line has increased about two minutes since OPTO has been introduced, due to the fact that operator has to go to the other side of the cab to open/close the doors at many stops.
Bottom line - here in Boston, OPTO has been successfully implemented on one subway line, but it's unclear if there has been any cost saving.
My aunt says that trip times in Chicago have also increased since OPTO was implemented for the same reason. The Red and Blue lines still have conductors in the subway portions.
I would (being a Slant R40 fan myself would welcome the return of these cars to Queens, where they got their start. If they are kept clean and in good operating order, there should be no problems with them.
BTW try using font color FFD720 for your Broadway Gold and try bolding the characters so it shows up better [b] [/b] (angle brackets). The orange is FF6820.
Wayne
Now with the Williamsburg Br. closing in a few months, they should be able to run 75 ft cars from Bay Pkwy to Chambers or Essex. (Digital readings for this are even on the R-44/46 side signs!, and of course, most of the R-68's have the signs for it too). Yet, a track worker at the Marcy/Hewes switch reconstruction in December told me that the new tunnel lighting on Nassau St is a barrier. Would anyone else know about this?
Why does everyone want to see 75 footers on the Eastern Division?:)
Much like Redbirds on the '7', I think the Eastern Division has a sort of look to it with the 40 Slant/M's and 42's that would be a bit ruined by the long cars.
Just my opinion......
And don't worry. The R-143's are probably going to look just like the 42's on the inside. I like seeing things different, and I miss the transverse seating. I would love to see them park a B division car on the middle tracks of the 1(anywhere between Dyckman and 242), the 3 (Junius-- requires deisel locomotive), the 4 (between Woodlawn and Burnside), or the 7 (QP and 61st St). (But as I've said elsewhwhere, there may be other obstructions besides just the platforms.
BTW When the bridge is closed, Nassau will not be connected to the Eastern Div., but only to the Southern and the IND, yet it still would be an opportunity to see the cars go where they normally don't (I did see a 4 car 46 parked in the middle of Chambers for the filming of a movie a couple of years ago. Coming from Fulton, I see it with the yellow signs on the track rising out of the stub, and for a minute, being tired and sleepy, I think I'm on the N approaching Canal!
The only thing decided as to current ENYD cars' reassignment once the WillyB closes is all slants being transfered to CIYD lines. Which R40 mod & R42 cars going to the Bay Pkwy end and which cars will be staying "in the East" has not been determined yet. But don't look for 75' cars on the M from Bay Pkwy. It will be a rush hour only service and the TA will not put newer cars on a part time line (B & Q swap). 75' cars are not allowed past Broad St. Why? Because it says so on the punch at Court St! And just before you enter Fulton St, there is a small sign on the wall restating that fact! I don't know why, maybe the 75 footers would side swipe the new Nassau St. line lighting around curves. Certain things we just don't question, because some departments do things without informing other departments as to why.
It is probably that nasty reverse-curve on the northbound tracks just south of Chambers Street. Some of the loudest screeches in the entire system come from here. A 75-footer would be a very tight fit in there. I don't know if they modified that tunnel like they did between Cortlandt and City Hall on the N/R.
The reverse curve north of Chambers almost as bad but it looks like it's out in open tunnel, where the old branchoff to the Manhattan Bridge once was.
Wayne
It can't be the curves themselves, because someone was telling me at the ERA meeting that when the D's used to go through there, they did
use R-44's (I remember the D going through there, but it wasn't R-44 the times I was on it). Someone also said there was some kind of G.O. years ago where N trains were laid up there, and then N trains have taken the wrong turn.
So if anything, it might be the lighting, as Bill suggested, and I had heard. That wasn't always there.
(I did see an R-46 in Chambers for the filming of a movie, a couple of years ago, but I don't know which way it was brought in.)
I would guess the signs banning 75ft cars are based on the assumption that the M is going all the way over to the Eastern Div. It could still be because of the lights, though,
No one touched on the R-44 fleet possibly because they're here to stay and more than likely, will stay exclusively on the A line
Phooey! Either that or the R-44s have become a forgotten afterthought.
Dear Sir/ Madam:
When the 63rd Street Tunnel connection opens, what service will
be extended to the IND E, F, G and R Lines? Will the IND G train be
cut back to Court Square at all times for good? Will they have IND
G trains to Forest Hills during non-rush hours, like weekdays 10am
to 3pm, evenings, nights and weekends? Will there be new V, W and Y
trains running as well? How will service operate during then?
James Li
It looks like the only change will be an extension of the Q to Queens. The G would serve its present route Court to Smith-9, and the E or F might become the second local since the Q will be dumped onto the express tracks east of Queens Plaza. The R is local by default! This works whether the Q runs IND or BMT in Manhattan.
I would guess if the Q runs express to 179th the F will become the local while the E remains express from Jamaica Center to Queens Plaza. Expect some howls from Sixth Ave. riders when that happens, but since the Broadway and Sixth Ave. lines are within no more than a block of each other from 57th to 23rd St., that seems like the most likely option.
How many R-32's are on the 63rd St. Shuttle and where did they come from?
My only wonder is what kind of service across the tunnel and down both 6th Avenue and Broadway there will be. Will Broadway get the 'Q' and will we see this 'V' train? I don't know if it'll even be necessary with the increased train service(E/F/G/R/V/Q?) unless it's an express and they cut the 'G' off(why not at Queens Plaza instead of Court Square so that 'G' riders can still at least transfer to a Queens Blvd train?) which is what they'll probably do.
And would the 'Q' become a full-time train or at least extended from just rush hours and middays?
I think the simple solution is the most likely: Cut off the G (unfortunately), keep the E and F and R as they are, and extend the Q to the Queens local via the 63rd St tunnel. Having the Q running in one direction and the V in another would require more cars, and the TA is trying to get by with as little as possible.
The one thing they might do is go with 18 E trains and 12 Fs, instead of 18 F trains. Since you only have 12 F trains in the other direction, that's a lot of trains going one way rather than going back to pick up more passengers in Queens.
Last October, there was one 8-car train of R-32s on the 63rd St. shuttle. No idea where they were borrowed from. When it reached 34th St., several passengers asked if it continued on to 23rd St., and the motorman told them to take either train across the platform (the S terminates on the southbound express track). I remarked that even if our train were to continue south, it would skip 23rd St. anyway, since it was on the express track, and the motorman replied "They don't know that," or something to that effect.
Was it cut off at 34th St. and not further down the B-way express tracks because there was only one 8-car train? Couldn't they have gotten more or were there none available?
I'm sure a lot of western Queens-LIC/Manhattan commuters would have appreciated that.
The 63rd St. shuttle was initially supposed to run between 57th St. and 21st-Queensbridge. It does just that during nights and weekends. During weekdays, it operates to 34th St.; apparently it was realized that there would be sufficient ridership to justify such an extension, plus there would be a means for Q passengers to transfer to the shuttle at 34th St.
There is only one train because service is limited to the use of a single track between 57th St and 21st-Queensbridge. Both trackbeds had to be torn up and redone; only one could be done at a time without shutting the line down completely. Last October, the shuttle train operated on the Queens-bound track, which was redone first.
When I was riding the Broadway line this past Friday evening, I saw two trains of R-32s on the Queensbridge Shuttle. One was in the Broadway/57th Street station northbound on the A4 track; the other heading southbound from 42nd Street to 34th Street on the A3 track.
They do run 2 8-car trains of R32, lettered for 63st Shuttle (Yellow S) I was surprised they actually have that route sign. North terminal is 21st/Queensbridge, and the south terminal has been alternately 'South Terminal' and '34st/_____', which, if I saw the peeling sticker right, is actually a 34st/6Av sign.
-Hank
You're both absolutely right. I do remember seeing two trains. Usually, they pass each other at 57th St.; the train from Queensbridge switches over to the southbound express track just to the north of the station. It then stays on that track to 34th St. After leaving 34th St., it briefly wrong-rails on the southbound express track, then switches over to the northbound express track before reaching Times Square.
Many riders on the Manhattan n/r aren't old enough or have not been in NYC long enough to know that there were ever expresses. During the brief time that the N ran express and over the bridge in the late 80's or early 90's, before the current construction, there would always be more than a few riders watching in shock as the train passed their station by. Especially those whow would get on at 49th, a local stop before the train switched to express.
My observation of the riding pattern on that line is that there is almost a complete turnover of passengers between midtown and the downtown stops. It just takes too long to go from uptown to brooklyn.
I guess trains to Queens via 63rd could change that, as well as the Manhattan bridge being reopened (probably not in my lifetime).
I remember the contingency plan implemented in 1995 when the Manhattan Bridge was closed to all subway traffic during middays and weekends, and doing a double take when I saw the signs above the express tracks at stations along Broadway. The Q provided all service on the Brighton line, making all stops all the way to Coney Island, then entered Manhattan via the Montague St. tunnel. It ran express along Broadway, switching over just before Prince St., and continued out to Queensbridge. I rode a few Q trains just for the fun of it; too bad the R-68s were assigned to that line at the time. It would have been even more enjoyable with the R-32s or slant R-40s, not just in terms of speed, but the railfan view as well.
I believe many were borrowed from the N stock, with a few coming over from the E.
I show the following units: 3524-3525 (N), 3626-3627 (N), 3570-3571, 3648-3649 (N), 3652-3 (E), 3674-3675, 3816-3817, 3842-3843 (E), 3846-3847, 3858-3859 (N), 3874-3875, 3902-3903, 3908-3909 (N), 3920-3921.
Those without letters in parentheses were spotted on the S originally.
One thing I am beginning to notice: the three camps of R32s (C, E and N) don't swap too often. In other words, once an E, pretty much always an E. The only swapping I see is between the A and C (Pitkin), and I saw Es and Rs (Jamaica) exchanging cars last year. Ditto with the N and the rare Q (Coney Island).
Wayne
Check out my Williamsburg Bridge post and get your erases ready.
One thing that I've noticed is that the R-32s have always had a close association with the N. Granted, they're not synonimous with the N the way the R-10s are with the A, but I get the impression that there have always been a least a few R-32s assigned to the N line since they first appeared in 1964-65. Most of my early rides on the N were on trains of R-32s; other cars included R-27/30s, R-42s, R-46s, and R-68s, even slant R-40s once or twice. In fact, the last time I took an N to Coney Island, I did so when a train of slant R-40s pulled into Pacific St. The express run down 4th Ave. was OK, and, of course, the view was second to none.
Check Steve's post of R32 reassignments when the WillyB closes. I doubt if you will see R32's on the N when that happens.
In my response I stated that I believe the passengers are largely responsible for the filth problem in the transit system. I realize my statement may imply that all passengers litter in the subway. That's not what I meant to say or imply. I should've explained that I know there are many of us who do not use the system as their personal trash can. Please accept my apology.
Wayne
Have you ever noticed the wood strip bolted to the edge of all stations platform edges secured by wood blocks? They are often painted yellow. Why is wood used?
The car threshold plates at door openings are at least 6 inches above the platform edge. This does not meet ADA requirement for wheel chairs and other convenances. What is the reason or is a carry over from the old days?
Wood is used because it's cheap. Cars sometimes rock as they enter the station, and this will damage the platform edge. Using wood (or more recently, plastic) keeps the platforms from absorbing as much of the impact (however slight) and also allows the gap between the car and platform to be narrowed or widened if necessary.
As far as the gap itself, if the station isn't accessible, it doesn't need to be ADA compliant.
-Hank
When I was redesigning and testing the signaling for the Archer Avenue Extension for Union Switch & Signal, I noticed some interesting attributes on the drawings and in the tunnels at Van Wyck Blvd. I walked the tunnels many times in 1986 and 1987 and found the following:
1) The entire grade separated tunnels for tracks D1A and D2A were built as part of the Queens lines contract under Public Works Administration (PWA) project No. 2741 in 1935 and 1936. The original tunnel lighting was installed and operative. They were called tracks D5 and D6 in the 1935 and were destined to go the Rockaways.
2) The tunnel was built originally from Van Wyck Blvd. to the middle of the present interlocking at Jamaica-Van Wyck.
3) When the Archer Avenue Extension was added the original tunnel was left original except for the addition of ties and track.
At Parsons-Archer, the tail track goes under the LIRR to allow for a several train storage. We provided rear home signals and red automatic signals with AK feature on these tail tracks. A Central Instrument Room (753CIR) is located deep in the tunnel on track D2A bench wall.
Correction to this posting. The line from Van Wyck Blvd. station would be called the Van Wyck Blvd. line and would terminate at Rockaway Blvd. and not go to the Rockaways.
I kind of figured the provision for the Van Wyck Blvd./Archer Ave. line was built at the same time as the rest of the Queens line; given the numerous bellmouths elsewhere, it makes perfect sense. I'll bet it certainly made things a whole lot easier when construction on the Archer Ave. line began.
There is a footnote in Peter Dougherty's track book which states that the E tracks extend approximately 3000 feet either after they turn right beyond Parsons/Archer, or for a total distance of 3000 feet beyond Parsons/Archer, including the right-hand turn. Don't you think they could have put in another station along the way?
I have a City Planning Commission map from 1969 that shows two planned extensions beyond Parsons-Archer. I believe what is now the E train would have run along the LIRR right-of-way through Locust Manor to about Springfield Blvd. (The new RPA "Metrolink" plan proposes this too, except going to Laurelton.) I guess the route would have been under Guy Brewer Blvd. for a few blocks before coming to the surface.
The other line would have extended the J/Z to about 190th Street-Hollis Avenue. It is possible that some of this would have been above ground, but I never heard any details about it.
The tail tracks at Parsons-Archer end at stationing 755+00 I believe the station platform end is at around 733+00, so there is approximatly 2200 feet of tail track. I will pull my track plans to find out.
There were some plans to extend the line however, they were conceptual only. I remember a station at Bailey Avenue and a yard towards Springsfield Blvd. I have the plans and will advise next week on Subtalk.
The tunnel turns south at 163 St and goes as far as South Road.I worked on the underpining of the LIRR viaduct
What is you favorite interlocking and interlocking plant?
A station called Van Wyck Blvd. with no street by such name!!! What do you think?
What about E 177 St and Parckchestor I walk around that area to find E 177 St and I could't find E 177 St. Since the station was built before the Cross Bronx EXPWAY. Could it be that the Cross Bronx EXPWY be where E 177 St. used to be?
Unfortunately yes,East 177 Street was torn up and replaced by that open ditch we call the Cross Bronx Expressway.Remnants of East 177 still exists in a few area though. The correct name for the station now probably should be "Hugh Grant Circle","White Plains Road," or "Parkchester."
Regards,Redbird
Okay where's 23rd Street and Ely Ave??
You come up on 44 Drive?
(I don't know Queens from a hole in the ground)
I know that Queens has allot of holes in the ground. It's called the subway.
Van Wyck Blvd was of course replaced by the Expressway. If you have any interest in local history, you know that most of the streets in Queens were renamed in the '30's.
Ely Ave=44 Dr
Lowery, Rawson, Bliss, etc on the Flushing Line
OK, which one was Van Alst? 21st Street or Jackson Avenue?
Of course, there's the bunch on the "A" line - 80th-Hudson, 88th-Boyd, 104th-Oxford, 111th-Greenwood.
Wayne
21 St, according to my 1928 map.
Ah, but there used to be a Van Wyck Blvd. at that location. The Van Wyck Expressway cuts through there now. Same deal with Willets Pt.-Shea Stadium. There was a Willets Pt. Blvd. which approached Roosevelt Ave. at an angle. The Shea Stadium parking lot obliterated that street, although it may still exist beyond the parking lot. Another example: older maps are marked 75th-Puritan Ave. on the Queens line. I haven't been able to locate a Puritan Ave. on any of my New York City maps.
[Another example: older maps are marked 75th-Puritan Ave. on the Queens line. I haven't been able to locate a Puritan Ave. on any of my New York City maps.]
Most Queens streets had their names replaced with numbers back in the 1930s. While the old street names have otherwise long since fallen into disuse, they live on in the names of some subway stations.
If you look on Hagstrom's 5-borough street atlas, Map 26/Page 60, you will find 75th Road between Metropolitan Avenue and Burns Street with Puritan Avenue in parenthesis. Within the boundaries of Forest Hills Gardens, all street signs (the private FHG variety, not the familiar white-on-green) are marked as Puritan Avenue. When the IND subway extended to Forest Hills, many of the numbered streets still carried the pre-1920s names as well. 75th Avenue (Road?) between Austin Street and Queens Boulevard was the new designation for the easterly projection Puritan Avenue.
Now how do you explain Slattery Plaza?
I've never seen Slattery Plaza on any of my maps nor on any of the street signs in the area. Perhaps the intersection of QB and Woodhaven Blvd was known as Slattery Plaza back in 1935 or 1936.
Wayne
There was a discussion of Slattery Plaza's name on nyc.transit some time back. It's probably been a couple of years, and I can't remember the answer. But you should be able to find the discussion via DejaNews.
Yesterday(2/11/1999) I was returning to Newark Penn aboard PATH and spotted these being unloaded froma flatbed trailer into a warehouse near PATH's Harrison Station (Just to the New York side of the New York bound PATH track). These cars are white and at a quick glance resemeble SEPTA's new light Rail cars used on their subway-surface line. I do not know if these cars are for the Newark City Subway or for the Hudson/Bergen Light Rail. My guess is they are for the Newark CIty Subway. PCC Fans--hurry, their day is fading fast!
Don't think the end is too near for the PCC's. The new shop facility/line extension is just under construction. Nothing has been done to the overhead, so any LRV's arriving now will have to be fitted with trolley poles. Supposidly the LRV's will be articulated cars, SEPTA's Kawasakis are single units.
Guess we have to stay tuned.
The Hudson-Bergen line and Newark city subway will have identical LRVs, but the Hudson-Bergen line will get them first, because they will have a portion of line ready for testing this spring. The PCCs in Newark have about another year to go.
The LRVs will be articulated, with a partial low-floor design.
I am trying to do a special project dealing with the history(past and present) of the nyc subway system. I am coming up to ny for a week in march and I would really like to spend some time shadowing and important subway "official" through a daily day. Hopefully I could go with this person to key locations of the subway system. I was wondering if anyone knows who I should contact. Please email me back!
Just wanted others opinions on what they think of the TA Museum's gift shop.
Besides the well-stocked book racks, and the enamel-plated station signage for sale, the shop is El Lameo!
First of all, those T-shirts are late in coming. I remember trendy "head" shops in the Village and Lower East Side that had those subway number and route sign Tees and sweat shirts years before the TA Museum "discovered" them.
And those silly toddler items like plastic wind-up steam engines and other knic-knac type junk have little relationship to the theme of the museum. There appears to be a lack of imagination on the part of the curator/operators.
One of the things that would certainly make money -- and appeal to the railfan -- which I'm sure most of us in these boards are -- would be a series of subway car T-shirts. Different shirts could be made to feature R-40 slants, R 1-9s, R-10s, R-46s, etc., etc., etc. The possibilities are there for many fanish (and sellable) items.
Lastly, I cannot fathom why the TA Museum has not gotten any of Image Replicas to offer the public. The reasonable prices -- about $130 for a three car train of R-21 types -- would be a big seller to tourists and local folk as well. I can understand not wanting to carry the brass stuff since the pricing was steep for most of us, but there should be SOME kind of subway models available. And no, models of MetroNorth coachs DO NOT count as subway cars!
Later, Doug
I agree with the idea of T shirts with different subway car images. I'd grab one with an R-1/9 or R-10 in a heartbeat. They have them at the Illinois Railway Museum depicting the different cars in their collection. I bought one with an image of CTA's Green Hornet 4391.
This all comes down to a matter of taste. 99% of all gift shops in North America are filled with junk. I happen to like your Ideas but others might think they are for "train geeks" or something. Anyway, if I ran the tranist gift shop I would stock the shelves with things like Fake Vomit or paperweights made from chewing gum scraped from actual subway platforms or a section of the third rail that you can plug in so that when your friends touch it they get a shock. My taste could be considerd diferent, but still, my ideas are more related to the TA than the Junk in their own museum.
I suggest you stock the shelfs of gift shops and the Transit Museum with jars of genuine steel dust for the NY Subway. They probably sell authentic rust from the Titanic some where!!! How about selling New York City bottle water?
I agree that it is a good idea for gift shops to carry interesting gifts like steel dust and Titanic rust. Anythink to make a buck.
I was with the Material Division when they did the first inventory in 80 years and found lots of stuff they didn't need. They held an auction at the Transit Museum. I showed up to see if anyone would come, and barely got in. Perhaps you remeber it -- it would have had to have been 1987 or 1988. There was a frenzy at the table where motorman's badges were for sale, and the old signs went in a flash. But there really isn't much on a subway which makes sense out of context.
There is a flea market at PS 321 in Park Slope every Saturday, and one of the vendors sells pictures of old Brooklyn. We bought a picture of trolleys passing near Bartel Prichard Square in Windsor Terrace and framed it on the wall. The Transit Museum should try to buy up as many negatives showing subways/els/buses/trolleys and related infrastructure as they can get, then sell mid-sized photos. They should also try to compile a book of route maps of all the rail transit systems in the country, then and now, and sell that -- a worthy project for a historical musuem.
Any idea on how often the Matrial Division does inventory nowadays? Or rather, will their be an auction like that in the near future?
New York City Transit's surplus material is currently listed online.
Ahem. Wrong link. Try this one...
New York City Transit's surplus material is currently listed online.
The inventory company that does our once a year inventory does the TA. Some of their crew even had to go to TA School to get clearance to walk the tracks to some out of the way locations.
I've heard stories of thousand dollar motors counted in one shop and suddenly appearing in another??
The museum used to have some cool surplus before the MTA went somewhat corporate: Streamlining the M's and so on... In the late 80's and early 90's I remember the old bus fare boxes they would sell and other miscellania. Perhaps the best items were the casual hats for the lines that conductors wore at that poeriod. I had a 4 line painrter's hat that I wore to death.... Now they sell rail road stuff which while nice, doesn't compensate for their lack of TA items.
I wonder how open the museum is to suggestions and/or how available is some of the surplus...
You want to know why?
It seems that Museum Curator Thom Harrington has this thing about getting big $$$ at the annual Gala so he puts away most of the old items that we buffs would buy in a second. What we might be willing to pay maybe $50 for, he can get some rich corporate big shot to pay $500 for at the gala.
I have been after the people at the Museum for ages trying to get them to part with some of the good stuff. So far the most they have offered are some numbers signs from scrapped cars (there are a few at the Museum gift shop - I was there last week).
I have been told that when the Grand Central store finally opens they will not male the mistake they made in the first store (High prices,, low selection, etc). We will see what happens.
Having worked at the 207th Street overhaul shop some years ago I maintained relationships with the good people I worked with. After reading about the cracked truck problem here at SubTalk, I called over there to ask what their ideas were.
The current thinking is that why these cars are suffering now as opposed to why not say R12's or 30's 15 years ago is this. The casting techniques used today should be better, and we know that the science of metallurgy has definitely progressed. The trucks that (mostly) seem to be affected were provided by Japanese manufacturers, whom we all know to have excellent quality control programs, so why then the cracks?
It's not the trucks, that are different, but the operating enviornment that's changed. See 20 years ago most of the subway was laid wih traditional (type I) track. The good old wooden cross tie in ballast. Now the maintenence free type poured concrete track is prevalent. The old stuff "gave" to the motion of the train passing over. This made for eventual distortions of the track and consequently a poor ride for the passengers, but it was easier on the trucks. Now the motion of the suspension is all absorbed by the truck frame.
The "F" men at 207th St. had been noticing excesive wear in the trucks for some time, and now the cracks, too. So that's the theory in vogue at the Truck shop up there. It's based on educated guesses though, and NOT hard data. It'll be interesting to see the actual engineering analysis.
Erik
I totally agree with that. If I recall, during the R46 cracked truck litigation some years ago, Rockwell International said the same thing: the roadbed is too hard. And today, there is even more concrete. I used to operate the old RR from Astoria to 95 St. It was virtually all ballast underground, now that has changed to concrete.
Yesterday, when I was reading the "War on Grime" article in the NY Daily News I noticed that the lines not mentioned were:
The Times Square, Franklin and 63rd St. Shuttles
The 'H' Rockaway shuttle
The #9
The 'Z'
Which led me to wonder "What constitutes a subway line?". I can see the '9' and 'Z' as they only appear at rush hours connected to the '1' and 'J', respectively.
But why not the shuttles? And the 'C' and 'Q' are connected to other lines at all times when they run but were included.
What gives?
Well the Franklin Avenue Shuttle doesn't run anymore, so that would've been impossible.
And the Q uses one station no other train uses until it stops running then the B takes over no?
That one station a line??
57th and 6th Ave
I was looking out my window from a project in the Bronx and noticed a #5 train comprised of OPTO cars making its way up to Dyre Av. It's nothing out of the ordinary being that 20 R62As from Pelham have to cover the shuttle service during the midnight hours. What WAS peculiar is that I noticed that the set of R62As on this train were consecutively numbered with new trucks (1651-60). They appear to have drawbars. Does this mean that the 6 line is getting 5 car units of R62As? Also, 1909 is out of service, so what do you do to make up for this car? Steve, are you out there?
How do 5 car unit arrangements affect the 3, 7, and shuttle? Is it safe to assume that a group of R62As will remain single to cover the lines I just mentioned?
Personally, I really don't see the value of linking the cars into 4 or 5 car sets (R62/68/62A/68As). This arrangement is not flexible considering how accident prone these cars might be. You lose one car, you wind up losing 3 or four others as a result. This tends not make any sense if there are no spares available to be put into a train. Basically, you have to put two accident trains together to get one good train. I still say that single units are more flexible than anything else regardless of how many repititious components are out there.
What's the easy solution? Leaving couplers on the ends for easy reconfiguration of the units? Spares may still not be available to put on a train. So the 3 or 4 good units wind up on a deadline as a result.
-Constantine
Lets start with the last point first:
Linking is a trade-off. When you link, you cut maintenance costs and icrease reliability. Linking removes electric portions, master door controls, master controllers and brake valves. Once removed, these components cannot fail nor do they have to be maintained. On the other side, linking reduces flexibility. If you hold one car for repairs, you now hold 3 or 4 OK mates. Again, on the positive side, that lack of flexibility forces maintenance shops to work smarter and more efficiently.
As for the 3 and the 7 lines, I assume that a certain number of R-62 single car units will have to be maintained for the 9 and 11 car consists used on those lines. It's no secret that the #7 line has single car R-33s just for this purpose so maintaining single car R-62As would by no means break new ground.
As far as the Pelham fleet, I do not believe that they are linking their cars (yet). More likely, the cars chosen for the Dyre Ave. line were sent as a block for the conveinence of keeping track of them. Being in consecutive order is because only certain cars are set up with transverse cabs (red marker on the roof). One correction about the cars having "Draw Bars". The draw bar is the device which connects the coupling device to the car body. The coupling device may be the usual H2C coupler or a link bar (what you were referring to) but all cars have draw bars. Again, I doubt that the Pelham fleet has begun linking yet.
Ostensibly any car can be converted to transverse cab - i.e. #1431-1432-1433-1434-...1438, with all five of the others (1435-6-7-9-1440), well, we know what happened to THEM.
I saw some consecutives on the #6 - 1691-2-3-4-5 was one and also
saw #1700-1699-8-7-then 1743. I don't know what happened to #1696. I have never seen it.
Wayne
Hey Wayne Do you remember the Union Square wreck in 1991??
#1435 (end damage- 5th car)
#1436 (end damage- 4th car)
#1437 (split in half crosswise- 1st car and still standing at concourse yard)
#1439 (end,side and roof sde damage-2nd car)
#1440 (endand massive side impact damage-3rd car)
#1696 (out of service status unknown) Also go to Illustrated Subway cars Roster and Cars Wrecked/Scrapped While in Revenue Service
Yes I remember that one well - I have copies of all four NYC dailies (Newsday was a daily paper back in 1991) showing all the grisly damage and mangled stainless steel. All the banner shots show #1437 split in two (her "A" end survived) but none seem to show the horrific damage done to the third car #1440. One Newsday photog, with some police in tow, managed to get an interior shot of this car showing the huge gash in the car's right side, with one row of seats folded back upright and the side with the damage almost touching them. Some folks have insisted that the lead car was #1440 but it really was #1437. I am awaiting the NTSB report to arrive and I will examine it, hopefully setting the record straight in the process.
Wayne
I remember the wreck in 1991 and I used to take #6 train to work at houston st but i forced to take the R or N to work and going home to switch at 59st to take the #6 train home. It took about a week or more to cleanup the wrecks.
I know years ago there was a collision on the #1 line between an R62A and a work train. I think it happened at 103rd St. could that be missing 62A? It was on the southbound track
Hey Gonzo go check Illustrated Subway Cars Roster and Cars Wrecked/Scrapped while in Revenue Service.
R62A #1969
Yes that was at 103 st and the motorman on that No. 1 train was a friend of mind. He said he had a green signal entering 103 st. The invergation turn out there was a signal problem but they tryed to hang the motorman.
Some questions for you:
1) How did they try to hang the train operator after the incident?
2) Did he/she lose any pay?
3) Is he/she still on the job?
4) What would you do diferently?
1. They tryed to say he keyed into 103 St.
2. He loss pay pending investigation but got payed after he was cleared of any wrong.
3. He is got his job back but retired
4. Ever since I have been going slower around curves and even more so after the G line Collision
In response to your replies to my questions, I offer this;
1) Human error is always suspected until mechanical failure is proven or ruled out.
2) Civil Service law prevents a person from being suspended without pay for more than 35 days.
3) Once the initial supposition was proven wrong, he suffered no loss in pay, even though he did not work.
I agree that for any of us, suspension is a drastic step, punitive in advance of the facts and punitive to the family as well as the employee. It seems like a knee-jerk reaction by the agency and something that the TWU and the SSSA MUST address in contract negotiations. Fortunately, the TA corrected the wrong. Unfortunately, such injustice has a chilling effect on the rest of the work-force. It's a drastic step that is mis-used far too often. Placing a person on modified duty would seem to serve the same purpose until all the facts are known. I can appreciate that after such a situation, this person would opt for retirement. I've seen it far too often. One of the problems is that the people making such decisions have not risen through the ranks.
That was R62A #2256 - she went pell mell into some poor old R21 work motor and messed his face up REAL GOOD. She got a broken bonnet and a bent anticlimber for her troubles. A few weeks at 207th St and she was as good as new.
Wayne
I shudder to think what would have happened if that R-62A had picked a fight with a BMT standard. The standard would have walked away, laughing.
Oh dear that's a frightening thought! The Standard would have squashed the R62A like a bug, perhaps leaving it a flat car!
(Shades of Union City, PA 1917). Did you read RedbirdR33's posts about the 1936 pile-up of R-1s and R-4s between 7th Ave-Park Slope and 4th Avenue? That sounded pretty grisly - it takes brute force to telescope an R-1 or R-4.
I saw a picture of an El Wreck on the #1 line which happened back in the 1950s. It happened on the centre track and involved Lo-Vs. The train that got hit didn't appear to be badly damaged - a smushed end -
but the train that did the hitting - the front half of the car was obliterated! All that was left was the superstructure back to the center door. It happened at W.230th Street and Broadway.
Wayne
It makes one wonder just how today's cars are designed and built comapred to those of yesteryear. Notice I didn't mention a Triplex - you know who'd win that confrontation. Apparently, the only instance of a fracas involving Triplexes happened in 1955 at Stillwell Ave, and who knows what they fought about. (an R-16, perhaps?)
Anyway, that pileup on the IND is mentioned in Building the Independent Subway; not much info except that additional R-9s were ordered to cover the casualty losses. It did say improperly set handbrakes were the cause of the crash. You know, I had the impression that 1575 may have been one of the cars involved in that pileup, but apparently this was not the case. What sort of mishap did 1575 get into which resulted in its metamorphosis?
Steve: I just read your previous post about the D-Types.I had never noticed the coincidence of the dates before.As to the wreck of 1575 I've checked several sources and can only say that the car was wrecked in 1946 and rebuilt in 1947.I'd like to hear the details of that wreck from anyone familiar with it. The only R-16 involved in a wreck was the 6494 which hit the block at Broad Street on 9/26/57.It was because of this wreck that R-11 8010 was returned to service. Apparently Broad St was a dangeous place in those days. I see that a B-Type 2330 was wrecked there on 2/25/53.
Best Wishes,Larry,Redbird
Hmmm. I was under the impression that 6494 had its face rearranged by a BMT standard - a knuckle sandwich, if you will, and subsequently had its good end grafted onto 8127 later on. Just what was it that made Broad St. so notorious in those days?
Steve: R-27 8217 did indeed have a run in with AB 2761 on 7/24/61 at Coney Island. It was sent to 207 Street for rebuilding using the undamaged end of 6494.I really don't know what was going on at Broad St but maybe some adjustment had to be made to the signals.
Regards,Larry,Redbird
We are forgetting #6304, which was disemboweled when she was literally pushed into a concrete curtain wall by R40M #4501, who was in turn being pushed (driven blind from the third car) by the cars behind her.
This May 20, 1970 wreck just outside Roosevelt Avenue killed two people and injured a few score more. Two thirds of this car's left side was shorn away by the impact.
Wayne
When link bars are used rather than couplers,how difficult does it become to remove a single car from consist for shop work? e.g. the 3rd car of a 5 car set?
Removing a car is more involved when a link bar replaces a coupler. First, there are two Litton-Veam connectors that must be disconnected (electrical). Second, the trainline air lines must be opened (pneumatic). Finally a trunion bolt is removed from the link bar (mechanical) and then the cars may be seperated. Linking them is done in reverse but is far more tedious. Putting the trunion bolt back is like threading an 80,000 pound needle with a 3" thick tread.
Steve- I have seen some four car units-I have seen while walking udner the 4 line several trains with this set up :5 csr series, single car, 4 car series (based on car numbers.) Are they linked or just luck of random arrangement?
To the best of my knowledge, all R-62s are linked. Mis-mated cars may be the result of replacements put into the consist due to long-term maintenance. Jamaica has 2 such 4-car units where one or 2 cars in each unit were out due to long term maintenance. The 2 okay pairs were mated and put in service and when the 2 long term O/S pairs were completed, they were put together and now run as a 4-car unit (The TAs version of Bob & Carol, Ted and Alice)
And I think I know who those are - 5614-15 w/6202-03 AND 5616-5 w/6204-5!
Oh, BTW, by the process of elimination, I THINK I figured out who #3418's wife is: it's #3863. ScrapMaster Constantine says that #3904 and #3559 are both fire-damaged and I have no reason to doubt him.
Wayne
Those cars were mismated even before that fire. As previously stated, when the cars were at M/K, some cars needed more work than others. So rather than holding a completed car waiting for its' mate, M/K got the OK to return cars as mixed marriages.
And they go along with the TA's version of Felix and Oscar, the Odd Couple R-32s.
I wonder if Bill Clinton has ever taken a ride on the New York Subway? Maybe they would stop the whole system until his private passes. Could you imagine the outraged passengers. Do they stop the subway when his parade car passes over subway lines or under elevated structures?
I may be mistaken, but during presidential visits I believe they halt service around the area for security reasons.
Yes, Just a couple of weeks ago the N was stopped, I believe in or around Astoria (go to nyc.transportation newsgroup for the original post) So that the presidents motorcade could pass under the EL.
I think we may confidently assume that neither the current
President nor any recent President has ridden the New York
subway while in office. Though the picture of a few
hundred Secret Service types having conniption fits is
most entertaining.
However ("I'm not making this up, you know!" -- Dame Anna
Russell, on whom be peace), on the morning of October 21,
1957, Queen Elizabeth II did ride the Staten Island Rapid
Transit -- not, to be sure, the actual electrified transit
operation; but the royal train from Washington to New
York, mostly via the Royal Blue Route, used SIRT trackage
between Staten Island Junction on the Lehigh Valley and
Stapleton on the SIRT. From Stapleton she was motorcaded
back to the St. George terminal (through which the royal
train had previously passed), from which point she was
carried to South Ferry Slip No. 3 on the U.S. Army ferry
_Lt. Samuel S. Coursen._
(The Army, in case you're curious, had found itself in the
ferry business due to the need to transport military
personnel to and from Ft. Jay, on Governor's Island.)
Why this way rather than a straight shot to Penn Station?
It seems that the Queen, in all probability not a railfan
but one with a certain sense of How Things Are Done, had
specifically asked to be brought into New York so as to
"approach the city the way it should be approached -- by
water," from which she would see "the fabulous skyline ...
something I have often seen before in pictures, a sight I
have always wished to see."
(Hmm...Great-Great-Grandmum, Victoria, would definitely
have used the first person plural for that last clause
even if one had been so imprudent as to have awakened her
at 4:00 a.m. at Camp Kilmer; and she in all probability
would have been the last European royal to have done so.
Our gains of the last century have not been without their
losses.)
Source: _New York Times_, October 22, 1957. (In which HM
had a certain amount of competition from Sputnik I.)
[I wonder if Bill Clinton has ever taken a ride on the New York Subway?]
I'll bet he did while a law student at Yale. He most likely traveled to the city on occasion during that period, and as a student probably couldn't afford to ride taxis.
I bet ya ol' Bill would've taken the subway when in NYC if he had only known how many well-endowed interns take mass transit. ;)
I SALUTE TO THAT!!!!
And if he did ride the subway, chances are Mr. Bill wouldn't remember doing so.
That depends on your definition of "subway"
This depends on your definition of the President of the United States of America in accordance with the Constitution.
Which makes me wonder about Mr. Bill. Enough said.
For security reasons, it would be a great risk for the President to ride the subway. When the President is in a motorcade, say, on the Grand Central Pkwy. to LGA, train traffic on the N & 7 is disrupted. I was working on the J on the day Pope John Paul II celebrated Mass at Aqueduct. After Mass he was in a motorcade on the FDR Drive. My train was held at Essex St. and all car/truck traffic was prevented from crossing the WillyB till he pased by.
Speaking of the pope, what about the time he celebrated Mass at Shea Stadium in 1979? What sort of disruption was there on the 7, if any? I remember reading about the pope making a reference to New York's skyscrapers and pronouncing it as "skyscrappers". I don't mean to drag religion into the fray, but I personally admire him very much. He even has Lithuanian blood, from his mother's side. Can't go wrong there.
Why is concrete used as flooring material on the old subway cars like the R1-9's. Allot of weight to carry around and it neats painting periodically.
Concrete is not used for subway car floors
RAIL TOPICS
Staten Island Railway
The expansion of afternoon Peak express service by 3
additional trips
Departing St George,,at 450 PM ,,616 PM,,631 PM
Connects with Whitehall Street Ferry at 420 PM ,
545 PM ,6 PM
Effective Apil 1999
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This is Official Material
I was wondering if any of you have ever seen anyone defy the third rail by touching it and not getting electrocuted.
I bring this up not because I think it would be neat to do, but I've seen it done.
I was waiting for a North-Bound Red Line train at the Belmont Street Station on the CTA Red, Brown, & Purple lines when I glanced at the tracks and saw a pigeon or bird sitting on the third rail.
I just hoped that the bird wouldn't reach down and touch the other rails, I like animals and wouldn't like to see that happen.
I believe to be electrocuted you have to make contact or complete the circuit. Anotherswords, If you only touch the third rail and no other metal object like the other tracks, you will be ok.
I have never tried it and never will, I have stepped on the edge of platforms before, but don't intend of ever doing it.
Anyway, my point is I'm glad the bird was ok and want to know if you have any similar stories. I DON'T want to hear about people getting electrocuted.
BJ
Yes, I have seen someone touch the third rail about 35 years ago on the LIRR at Douglaston station. They did not get shocked. I would not touch it however, if you touch it without touching the running rails or ground you should not get shocked. DON'T TRY IT. On these newer transit system the negative return is ungrounded so touching a carbody is the just as harmful as touching the third rail. Think about that.
> On these newer transit system the negative return is ungrounded so > touching a carbody is the just as harmful as touching the third
> rail. Think about that.
Huh? Only if there is a major failure of insulation within the car, causing part of the "floating" power circuit to come into contact with the car body. Just what systems are you talking about anyway?
All modern transit system like WMATA, MARTA, etc. On MARTA the trucks have a ground cable to the car body. The car body is connected directly to the running rails through a ground brush on the axle which is the negative return. The negative is floating above ground to prevent corrosion of utility lines by causing negative currents from flowing through ground back to the substation. If you desire to dispute this, try touching the running rail or car body and a true earth ground and you will be shocked. Have you ever wondered why tie plate fasteners for running rails on direct fixation track are made of neoprene? Must people think it is for ride quality. The main reason to electrically isolate the running rails from ground.
I think you will find that insulated fishplates are installed in order to isolate track sections in signal blocks.
I'm talking about insulated fish plate or IJ's. I'm talking about rail fasteners which are used instead of tie plates. There primary purpose is to keep the rail above ground while allowing the track circuits to work.
Please forgive me. In my last statement I thought you were refering to the bolted plates that joined the rails.
I think you will find that the noeprene strips under rails fitted with clips is to provide resilliance. The metal clip holding the rail is itself is grouned to the concrete effectivly bridging the neoprene.
Simone, that is not true what you are saying. The Pandrol clip or ones made by other manufacturers would have a nylon spacer under them where they make contact to the rail on concrete ties. On direct fixation track a large neoprene fastener is used for electrical isolation. This is very important in rapid transit and commuter rail systems that use the running rails for negative return. In Britain on the Underground it does matter much because the 4th rail is used as a negative return.
I thought the reason for insulated Pandrols when using concrete
ties is because concrete has a much higher leakage conductance
than wood, especially with re-bar :) The ties would quickly shunt
the track circuit.
In theory, you can touch the 3rd rail and as long as you are not grounded, not be hurt. In practice, however, I wouldn't try it. There are too many variables. 3rd rail insulators can have creepage, the ground can be wet and so can your shoes. I try to show Mr. 3rd Rail all the respect due him.
Isn't the third rail shielded on the entire system? I know in the old days they were uncovered on the els because of the design of the pickup shoes on the old cars. By shielded I mean isn't there a wood cover over the rail? If there is how would anyone ever be able to step or stand on the rail?
Yes, the third rail is "shielded", no, it's not a very good cover. Metro-North has UNDERRUNNING third rails, which in theroy are safer still. People still do get hit by them. Boston still runs an uncovered rail by the way, as do a lot of the systems in England. Go figure...
All the third/fourth rail systems in England are unsielded. I think that there was only shielded system that ever ran on a regular basis in England, from Manchester to Bury. This was because it was felt that the 1200 volts DC used for that particular system was a bit on the high side.
Sorry, forgot the Docklands system, collector shoes make contact with the bottom of the rail. Not sure whether the top is shielded though.
Sorry, did not make your last message. Docklands is shielded on the top and collected from below.
When the MOW uncovers the third rail and there is service they place signs up (NYC that is) that say (I think) "3rd Rail Alive"
Funny way to describe it if you ask me.
In both Baltimore and DC the third rail coverboards bear signs reading
DANGER; 750 Volts. All the poles at Light Rail stations have signs that warn of high voltage overhead.
As to wildlife, we've seen and heard pigeons ground themselves between the 12.5 KV trolley and the station structure (Pennsyvania Station, Baltimore). The result (always) is a loud "BANG!) followed by a wee bit of smoke. No charred feathers, though. However being close to the scene will scare the s*** out of you. No lie!!
An ATK friend of mine once noted "There was a little girl pigeon sitting on the trolley, and a little boy pigeon sitting on the beam. They touched beaks, and that was the HOTTEST piece he ever got."
I did witness an AEM-7 ground a pigeon who was sitting on the contact wire. When the pantograph touched the bird's feet, the resulting "bang" blew the pan off the roof of the motor. Nobody on the platform got hit, thankfully.
Wow! I never knew that trains could lose their pans that way...
When the main line from London to Hastings was electrified a few years ago (unshielded 3rd rail) there were a problems with badgers attempting to cross the line and getting killed. I recall a magazine article saying that engineers/conservationists had gone back to the line, identified the badger runs and cut gaps in the rail accordingly. This was in pre-privatisation days.
Max, I believe the Docklands is shielded.
I remember hearing one many years ago about a graffitti artist getting a rude awakening while relieving himself in the tunnel between Sutphin and Van Wyck Blvd (he survived). Here's one thing that always made me nervous - at Broadway-Nassau, isn't the third rail on the same side as the platform, at least on the Brooklyn-bound tracks? God forbid if someone should accidentally fall from the platform - there's nothing to indicate the third rail is there.
Wayne
Even more creepy - in at least one station in Boston, it's not only under the platform - it's *uncovered* too. Also, the LIRR used to run low platforms and third rail for years, and sometimes did put the rail on the platforn side. Look at early pictures of the old Garden City stop, among others.
What worries me is I see kids (and adults, who should know better too), crossing LIRR tracks all the time, often casually stepping over the rail, putting their feet between the two, etc. Why doesn't the LIRR have any sort of PR campaign directed towards this? It's always a dangerous activity, and more often than not, the people involved have no clue how dangerous it is.
On the SIR, until last year, there was third rail on the platform side @ Grasmere and Bay Terrace. When the Grasmere crossover was removed, the third rail was moved to the outside of the line, away from the platform. A few weeks later, the relocated the Bay Terrace rail. Except for these 2 stations, and Tompkinsville, and crossover areas, all the third rail is between the 2 tracks.
-Hank
You thought that was dangerous, Here in Chicago the CTA has no 3rd rail covers on the entire system!
The rail is always opposite side of the platform, but still, that is dangerous!
Especially for the Blue Line Douglas/Cermak branch in Cicero where it runs at ground level, Ravenswood Brown line at groud level and Puple line at ground level!
All of these have island platform stations at ground level!
You hear about people always walking the tracks every summer and getting electrocuted! This really makes me mad. The only warning the CTA has is big signs between the tracks at crossings opposite the stations that warn you. For the almost 100% Spanish population of Cicero, this would be bad if they are only is English!
Also, if a little kid strays just a little bit from His/Her parent walking on the side-walk accross the tracks, they are history.
The only area the CTA has protection against this is the wealthy suburb of Wilmette where the Purple line runs at ground level. Because the town could pay for it there are barriers on the tracks at all times except when trains pass.
BJ
That crossing on the Brown line sounds incredibly dangerous. I am surprised that the CTA hasn't had multi-million dollar lawsuits on its hands over this. Protecting the crossing would surely cost less than what a jury would award in a wrongful death suit. At the very least, put covers over the third rail in the vicinity of grade crossings!
Then again, people aren't supposed to just walk over train tracks, and you should at least be somewhat aware that the third rail is electrified. Besides, covering the rail at croissings does nothing for the CTA - the second you make something idiot proof, along comes a better idiot...
Witness the electrocution of some girl on Metro-North's Hudson line the other year - The third rail on that line is VASTLY more covered than CTA's. The sad thing is that the father was fishing with her on the edge of the tracks (in itself a dangerous idea), and had let her cross *unatended*. Who's fault is her death? Metro-North's of course...
Finally, are they even able to put covers over the third rail? certain types of pickups don't allow for this to be done.
The Metro-North third rail as you know is an overunning one,i.e. it is suspended from brackets and the shoes touch the bottom of it. This makes it somewhat higher than the subway third rail and more difficult to cross over. It requires a very high step for a grown man and is made more difficult if the right of way slopes away from an outside track. I work for MN and can only reemphasize the extreme danger of a third rail or any type. Even veteran railroad workers use extreme caution and cross the rail only when necessary. The decision to allow a young child to cross a busy four track main simply defies explanation.
Larry,Redbird
I think it's called lack of plain old common sense.
RESPECT is the key word here. Any kind of exposed electricty is dangerous, be it third rail, downed power lines or the outlet over your sink. The object is to teach your children to respect electricity and use appropriate caution. The examples we set as adults are very important, and children will copy our actions!
BTW, fishing along train tracks is TRESPASSING, as well as reckless endangerment of a child. That man doesn't deserve a plugged farthing from Metro-North
Gerry
Apparently constant exposure to network television programs cause a total reduction in common sense. I grew up with TV, as did most of us, BUT...we found lots of things to divert our minds away from TV drivel.
Therefore, we instintivly know things we've been taught: electricity and machines are dangerous if not properly used/respected. However, a sizeable portion of the population doesn't. We see them on the roads, doing stupid stuff on transit (discussed ad infinitum previously) and other stuff that flies in the face of good 'ol common sense.
My own observation about the CTA based on two trips to the Windy City - uncovered third rail because CTA cars have a gravity type shoe that drops from the shoe beam directly along the top of the third rail - not a protruding shoe that is perpendicular to the shoe beam such as the LIRR and NYC Transit use. It would be physically impossible to install a protection board atop the CTA third rail.
What I meant to say was does the Central Line run right-handed at White City? Thanks again
Larry,Redbird
I think that the oldest subway yards is 240st yard and 137st yard on #1 train
The yard at 148th St. and the Harlem River (Lenox Ave. line) is mentioned in the 1904 IRT book as the primary site for train storage and repair. 240th St. isn't mentioned, so I'm sure it came later.
One of the oldest BMT rail yards (originally BRT) is the 36th Street yard that was the terminal for the old Culver Shuttle and a station along the South Brooklyn Railway (the Railway still passes through the yard enroute to the larger Coney Island yards via the 'B' West End line).
Wayne: I just saw the 1970's version of "King Kong" and you are absolutely correct. He did tear down the Astoria Line and wrecked havoc with an RR train on that line. Of course you know what the train's consist was; yes the good old R-16's. It seems everybody beats up on those poor cars. Best Wishes,Larry,Redbird
Did you see the near-perfect mockup of the interior, complete with slanted door-motor pockets (the fans were too small and the cross bar was missing from the storm door window)? Alas, poor #6316, I knew her well...
Wayne
I was impressed by the acuracy of the signage.I cloud clearly read "Astoria" and "RR Broadway Local." That was back in the days when the "RR" was colored dark green.
Speaking of mockups, did you know that nearly all interior car scenes in The Incident were filmed inside a mockup of World's Fair Lo-V 5674? Let me tell you, it sure could have fooled me! Believe it or not, the cast and crew weren't even allowed on TA property for filming (needless to say, the TA wasn't too thrilled about the idea of making a movie as gripping as The Incident).
That was a mockup?!? Boy, the set designer had to have done his/her homework! Everything was right on the money - the little partitions by the sides of the (wicker, of course) seats, the porcelain straps, the jumbo fans...The only quibble I had was the scene, supposedly shot at Mount Eden Avenue, shows the sharp curve of 210th-Williamsbridge - right borough, wrong line. Say, I wonder if the WFLoVs ever ran on the #4 line...that WAS the line they were supposed to be on, no? They certainly ran on the #8 - that's where I rode mine on.
I had forgotten the name of the movie, thanks so much for reminding me. Now I'll have to comb the TV pages and watch for it.
Wayne
Wayne: When the World's Fair-Steinways came over to the mainland from Queens in 1948 they were asigned to the #6 Lexington Av Lcl.In October 1955 cars 5653-5665 went to the 42 Street Shuttle while the remainder went to the #2 7 Avenue Express.Starting Oct 4,1962 all WF cars were sent to the 3 Avenue El.Bill Zucker wrote a good article in the Nov and Dec 1981 NYD Bulletin about these assignments.
Best Wishes,Larry,Redbird
The movie producers went so far as to write to St. Louis Car Co. for specifications on that car. The mockup was built entirely of wood, and was mounted on a swivel stand. Strings of lights were mounted on the outside and illuminated sequentially to give the illusion of tunnel lights flashing by a train moving at 30 mph. The mezzanine and token booth were also studio mockups.
The film crew spent something like four nights filming scenes on the actual elevated structure and underground stations, pointing their camers through train windows. The cameras were hidden in paper bags or boxes; transit cops became suspicious when they heard a whirring sound, whereupon the film crew was asked to leave. It was a bit trickier with the platform scenes. The actors weren't ejected, since they each paid the fare, but they couldn't spend a whole lot of time on any given platform because permission had not been granted to film on TA property.
You can find out more about this by visiting www.imdb.com and looking up The Incident. It's very fascinating, and I must say, the mockup subway car was meticulously done. The only issue I would have would be the Woodlawn-Jerome Ave. destination plate; it's all by its lonesome. Didn't the WF Lo-Vs have three plates in a vertical row the way the other Lo-Vs and Hi-Vs did?
And I Did! Boy that's a realistic-looking Steinway! I'm comparing it to the one in the Car Roster- they nailed just about everything - the ogee roof, the lights, the straps, the big fat fans (biggest fan housings I ever saw). Maybe they will restore the one remaining WF Lo-V that waits at Coney Island. These were unique cars, for sure.
Wayne
Just FYI..the URL is imdb.com..otherwise you get a swedish bank....
You're right - sorry about that. Must have gotten my letters reversed.
MTH is coming out with a new set of O gauge subway cars. The new set will be a four-car unit (unfortunately R-40/42 like the last set) but with E signs (no liter on the floor) and no blue stripe. There will also be a 2 car dummy unit add on set and they are also making a 2 car dummy set with the blue stripe for those who bought the last ones.
Now, if they could only come out with S Gauge subway cars for those of us who are into American Flyer.
I wish that MTH would come out with their subway cars in HO since I (and other railfan/modelers) already have a couple MTS brass NYCTA cars and some of the old Q-Car Company resin models.
"Now, if they could only come out with S Gauge subway cars for those of us who are into American Flyer"
I suggest that both of you (modeling in S gauge) write to the manufacturer. (((((((((Grin))))))
Steve B, Did you know that there is a former IRT motorman, now living in Montana who scratch builds subway equipment in S gauge. The last time I corresponded with him he had some for sale. He was always fond of the IRT's older cars.
Karl, thanks for the info! You may email me privately if you wish, if you have this gentleman's address.
You mentioned you now live in PA. This is off the subject, but I'm curious about the long-gone seventh tunnel of the Pennsylvania Turnpike. This tunnel was somewhere west of the Allegheny bore, and as I recall, had a sharp right turn heading west right at the west portal. It was there in 1962, but by 1965, when we were heading home from New York, it was gone. Later, two additional tunnels were eliminated (Ray's Hill and Sideling Hill) when a new roadway section east of Breezewood opened in 1969-70.
Here are some sites that have info/pictures about the Pennsylvania Turnpike abandoned tunnels:
http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~mn2n/turnpike.html
http://www.en.com/users/johnb/patpke1.shtml
http://www.his.com/~halem/turnpike/
http://www.athenet.net/~mgk920/pennatpk.html
Quite interesting. Enjoy!
-Dave
Verry Interesting!! I remember the old tunnels as we used to visit my Aunt & Uncle who lived in Cleveland. All 7 were in service at that time, but the Turnpike ended at Irwin (near Pittsburgh). Later the 'pike was extended to the Ohio line, but until the Ohio Turnpike opened in the early 1960's, the Turnpike ended at the tollgate, became a 2-lane road which led to US 30 for the trip to Cleveland.
My father remembers those days. He says there were no speed limits even in the early 50s (people would be doing 80-90 mph), and every so often he'd spot a car on the side of the road with smoke pouring out of its engine compartment (not steam, but real smoke - we're talking burned-out engine). The tunnels proved to be bottlenecks; there would be cops waving motorists along.
The Ohio Turnpike opened in 1955, and the Indiana Toll Road followed a year later. My folks used to use US 20 through Ohio; it was in pretty sad shape by the time those superhighways opened.
Dave - thanks for the website info! I will look into it.
Maybe this topic was discussed before I came around, but Dave, have you ever considered a chat room on the page?
I am working on writing a bot to create a chat room in IRC. If anyone knows what irc is, you can join channel #SubChat. If you you dont know what irc is, check out MIRC.com. It is very popular, and very entertaining if you know how to use it.
I don't have the server capacity to host any sort of chat room. SubTalk is bad enough. But, there's room in this world for everything so if someone else wants to run it .... :-)
Fred....I am familiar with irc. Whic server is it on....dalnet, undernet, efnet, etc.?-Nick
I am still getting the scripts to write the bot, however, once I am done it will be on Efnet. I guess I am going to call the channel SubChat, however I am not sure whether to make it private or public. You are welcome to place a bot in the channel if you wish
About the only way to do this is to have a specific day & time for subtalkers to "invent" a chat room on their respective internet provider,
I heard the williamburg bridge are going to close the J,Z,and M service and torn down the track and repair new track. So how will the service going to be????
OK here's what I have heard so far:
"M" service terminates at Marcy Avenue
"J" service terminates at Myrtle Avenue
"Z" service terminates at Eastern Parkway
"M" southern division service rush hours only between Essex and Bay Parkway
"J" shuttle between either Chambers or Broad and Essex
"J"/"Z" skip-stop in both directions during rush hours (may be extended slightly from its current schedule)
"L" service being beefed up
"A" weekend express service with attendant "C" local service
Shuttle buses between Marcy and "L" station at Bedford/North 7th St.
May be shuttle buses over the bridge to Essex/Delancey
None of this is chiseled in stone yet and is ** subject to change **.
Wayne
You say the L is being beefed up. What about the rush hour A/C? Won't lots of people be changing? At least they could run the E, with 12 train instead of 6 Cs, to Euclid it could run local in Brooklyn and express in Manhattan.
These are the current car movement plans for additional service when the Williamsburg Bridge closes:
XX Slant 40s from East NY to Coney Island (numbers to be announced)
80 R-32 Phase II cars from Coney Island to Jamaica (Jamaica -2 Cars)
82 R-32 Phase I cars from Jamaica to Pitkin (Pitkin +82 cars)
E line service will be increased by 4 trains to accommodate Parsons Archer J/Z customers. F will be reduced by 4 trains.
More to follow:
While waiting at the downtown 14th Street station at about 8 p.m. last night, a two-car work train came by. I didn't get the car numbers but they were the typical IRT-dimension, yellow-colored cars. What I thought interesting is that they were signed with a diamond 7 in the bulkhead route boxes; thought "Not In Service" in the destination boxes. I wonder why the diamond 7 was chosen?
The crew is fooling around if ya ask me. The diamond 7 is for the express service 7 so since they weren't making all the stops and they had IRT cars... Sounds better then putting up a round 5 and maybe it was closer then the diamond 6?? (If there was a diamond 6 when those cars were in service, got to ask a sign expert).
That had nothing to do with the #7 Flushing Line. That train was probably #7 Revenue collector, signed up that way to be ID'ed by the towers.
In December, 1971, I was part of the "Subway Seven" who rode the entire system for a world's record. We sponsored this through Polytechnic Instutite of Brooklyn were I went to college. We rode the entire system in 24 hours. It was not a record because others had the record in the 1960's. There were some clowns in 1988 that traveled the system in more than 26 hours when the Archer Avenue Extension opened and they got the record from Guiness. Two friends of mine in the 1973 broke the record at 21 hours, 8-1/2 minutes and were in Guiness until 1988. My friend that was record holder with Guiness contacted Guiness and Guiness could not produce a log of the trip and went solely by news media coverage. The moral to the story, the Guiness Book of World's Record is a fraud.
I could go on and on with story along with NYCTA involvement and my letters and responses to Guiness. This is an excellent topic for Subtalk or my E-Mail.
When you say you rode the entire system what exactly do you mean? Every line from end to end? Or were you allowed to skip the express trains? Or what about lines which have multiple termini, did you have to ride to each terminus? Or did you have to ride to each station?
As far as I know, the rules are that you must ride on a train through each of the stations on the system, not necessarily stopping there. Express trains or skip stops are ok. Since the old J line was a long local with little or no express service it may have been used as a starting or ending point in the past. As the system exists today it connects with the E express, creating more possiblilties for routings. Pelham and 205th might make good starting/ending points today.
You are absolutely right and that is what we did in 1971.
Youv'e got my friends+I talking. We will go for the record soon. (I'm not saying we will break it, but it will be fun to try!)
Also--Is there any record for length of time? I'm sure some bums have been on for a good 2 or 3 days. I would like to try that as well this summer.
I'm not sure it would be a good idea to go for a longest-time-on-the-system record. In fact, I'm sure it wouldn't!
Besides the obvious homeless community's competition, you have to wonder what kind of condition you'd be in when you finished. After all, if you spend a long enough time doing anything, you'll never want to do that again as long as you live.
It's terrible to imagine it... my love of subways directly causing my hate of subways?
Of course, I'm all for the whoever-can-ride-the-whole-system-fastest contest. Just riding the whole system without leaving would be a great feat, let alone doing it in the fastest time possible.
We were planning this on the board some time ago, but just as we were finally getting plans together, someone else did it....
-Hank
Given the reduced train speeds one encounters today (an overreaction, IMHO), the speed record may stand for some time.
I think the reason I feel the way I do about the subway has to do with the fact that I experience it in small doses (once a year for a few days). After a few days, the novelty starts to wear off. My sister, who lived in the city for 12 years and was a daily subway rider, told me more than once that I would get tired of it if I had to deal with homeless people, panhandlers, delays, etc., on a daily basis, and she may be right. Of course, she's not exactly a transit buff, but she did like the slant R-40s when they first appeared...
When i was a teenage i took every lines in the city, but i missed some stations. The station i have never went it 205st "D" line in the bronx, Bay Ridge ave, 77st, 86st,and 95st "R" line in the brooklyn, 179st "F" line in the Queen, 104st, 111st, and Lefferts Blvd "A" line in the Queen. Boy is was fun to ride in the subway cars.
We rode the entire system and skipped stations when the platforms where less than 100 feet alignment from the track we were riding on. We rode each route and had to double back on some occassions. Compared to the system 1988, the system in 1971 was bigger with the following routes still in service:
Third Avenue El in the Bronx
Culver Shuttle
Jamaica Avenue El to 168th Street
In 1988, the Archer Avenue Extension was the only additional line to transverse. This does not compare to the number of stations and length of lines taken out of service since 1971.
So this new 63rd St. connection is the newest....ANYTHING(besides cars) in 11 years?
I'm wondering if anything new will come of the bridge rehabs.
When will they shut down, incidentally. I want to get one more ride in during this century(Unless they shut down in 2001:))
How far are the tunnel portals on the Manhattan side from the abutments of the Manhattan and Williamsburgh Birdges?
Can you see the portals form Grand Street and Essex Street, respectively?
If you stand at the north (Jamaica-bound) end of the platforms at Essex Street, you probably can see the portal on a sunny day. If you look geographically south behind the Jamaica-bound platform you can also see the abadoned trolley terminal, still intact after fifty years.
At Grand Street the portal is not visible due to the curve necessary to reach the Manhattan Bridge tracks.
I posted some messages a few months ago looking for info about Subway Riding Records. I too am a former holder of the "Speed" record through (not neccesarily stopping at each station) the entire system. This was in 1968 for a record of 22 hours and 39 minutes on June 16th. Did it with 2 friends, all Brooklyn Tech students. There were at that time various classes of competition with different rules, we did the Class C which is the out-and-out fastest. I've tried to follow the history of the record since then, but can't find any accurate source. By the way, my official certificate is signed by several people, one of which is Don Harold, who's name I've seen mentioned here. If you see this Don, you may not remember me, but what about Bob Stannish? (the brains behind the record run).
Any one with ACCURATE info on offical records, please post it!! Thanks.
Rich,
It is pleasure to find one of the record holders from 1968 like you, that I briefly recall referencing in 1971. Lets discuss on E-Mail.
Why not make the riding record part of the NYCSubway Site. If someone wants to post a subway riding record attempt the documentation should include the departure location and time, arrival location and time, and train route for each leg of the journey. Since the key to setting a record is routing and connections. Late hour reroutes should be valid, if documented. The documentation should allow any sub-talker to sit down with the schedules and verify that the times and routings are valid. Of course, luck in making connections is the biggest factor in such a trip.
When I broke the record in 1967, there was an Amateur New York Subway Riding Committee which verified any claims to a record. Documentation required was just about as you suggested. The 1st Car#, Time and location of each connection was required. It took over 6 months for the data to be verified! Does anyone know what happened to the A.N.Y.S.C ?
You are absolutely corrected. Mayer Wiesen and Charles Emerson for their October 8, 1973 record of 21 hours, 8 1/2 minutes was highly documented and audited by Steve Zabel of the NYCTA, conductor and respected railfan. When we did it in 1971 at a time 24 hours, 18 minutes we keep a log exactly like you descibed. I still have mine.
When a team of people did it in 1988 they didn't submit a log to the Guinness Book of World's Records and Guinness printed the false record based on news media coverage only. This is fact and I have the letters and documentation to prove it.
Footnote, myself and other individuals who did the rally in 1971 did not apply for a record with Guinness because we did not beat yours Rich.
Someone suggested posting this sort of thing to the web site-- I'll put an entry in the faq if someone wants to assemble it and mail it to me.
-Dave
David,
I would be willing to do that when I get the time. I also will send photographs of MARTA to you. When is Substation 21 going to be posted? Please E-Mail me.
Steel dust can placed in special container and provided with a magnet. It could moved around from the outside into cavities in the container to spell out the workds New York Subway. COOOL GAME
Id also like to see someone take a cup of steel dust and dust a light coating inside the ground relay and ceramic grid insulation for a nice fourth of July. Id also like to see a flat car "add" to R-68 2755.
I think I had a toy like this..it was a bald head on cardboard, covered with a plastic sheet. You'd use a magnetic pencil that would arrange small black particles into hair, a beard, a mustache, whatever...
-Hank
What do you guys think of the tunnel lighting on the Lexington Avenue subway with those mercury vapor or sodium vapor lamps point away from the direction of traffic?
I assume that they are shaded away from the direction of traffic so that the train operators don't get spots in their eyes - those lamps are rather bright. It might make reading signals a bit difficult. You can see similar lights on the Concourse IND line. I rather like those big flourescent bulbs you see in the Canarsie Line tunnels and a few other places as well - some of them are shaded on the traffic side as well. Some lines ("G" crosstown, 60th Street tunnel) have flourescent bar fixtures. The best illuminated tunnels I have seen are in the LA subway (have not been there personally - have seen via the media). DC Metro's not too bad either.
Wayne
I think they put some in at Atlantic Ave on the D/Q. First time I thought a train was coming from DeKalb!!
They're GREAT for taking tunnel videos :)
--Mark
And we all know how important that is, don't we :-)
Until next time,
Anon_e_mouse
It's real important if you have to work on the signal cases, train stops, signals and switch machines in the subway. REAL IMPORTANT!!!
Well, very important. Tunnel visibility is very important to the train operator.
--Mark
OK. Heres a question maybe someone might have the answer for. Riding on an N or R downtown in Manhattan, you arive at Whitehall St. Just past the station, you can see two things. One, on the right hand side, you can see a boring as if a new line was to be started. HOwever there are no tracks and it is not long enough for a whole train. Also on the left hand side, you can see a space between the two tubes and it appears to be some sort of plant in there. HOwever, the train never goes slow enough for me to get a good enbough glimpse.
Any ideas on either of these two phenomena would be appreciated...
Part of the question I can answer. The pockets in the wall were for a proposed Construction Rt #32"Battery -East River-Atlantic Av Route which was of course never built.I'm not sure about the plant but when the station was built it could hold a seven car train of Standards.It was lengthened to hold an eight car train (of Standards) in the late 1920's. The northbound platform was extended south and the southbound platform was extended north. These were very narrow extensions and were used for unloading only. There were gates that prevented access to the extensions from the main platform. When the platforms were extended to hold a 10-60 foot R-Types these extensions were either closed off or incorporated into the new extensions.
Best Wishes,Redbird
No NO those tunnels are the walled off section of the rail link to Staten Island!!! It's TURE!!!
Just kidding ;-)
Lou: I do believe that while the orginal plans for those bellmouths was for a Battery-Atlantic Av Line a later proposal would have connected them to Staten Island.
Regards,Redbird
I am looking for information about the defunct Rochester subway. Any maps or photos appreciated.
On the Rochester subway, the Rochester Chapter of the NRHS put out "Canal Boats, Interurbans, and Trolleys: The Story of the Rochester Subway," copyrighted 1985, a softbound 128-page book in a wide 8 1/2 x 11 size with lots of pictures and fold-out maps on the inside back cover. It's by Amberger, Barrett and Marling; ISBN # 0-9605296-1-6.
I also have a videotape called "The End of the Line: Rochester's Subway," with a 1994 copyright by Animatus Studio in Rochester. It runs about 45 minutes.
You might try Kevin Farrell in Boston; I notice from his last ad that he now has a web site at . There are other dealers who might have them; I would also try Ron's Books or Arnold Joseph.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Another source for these materials might be the gift shop of the New York State Transportation Museum in Rochester. Although I didn't get my copy there, they did have both the book and the video on my last visit.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Addendum to my previous post on the Rochester subway. I put the graphemic brackets around Kevin Farrell's URL and that apparently got deleted. It's www.trainbooks.com
Sorry
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
> I put the graphemic brackets around
> Kevin Farrell's URL and that apparently got deleted
Not deleted.. (It's still in the text of your message) It's just that your browser treats the > and < as html markup commands. stuff inside them is assumed to be markup not printable text.
what is the punishment for being caught with your rollerbaldes on whie on the train. I heard it was a 60 dollar fine. Is this law enforced much?Many of my friends, howver, wear their skate wile on the train. They say thyeve never had any trouble, and as long as your not being a nuisance they wont bother you ( seems like the correct policy to me) and even if you get botherd unless your over 18they usually wont do anything to you.
the only time you caould cause trouble with skates on is if its crowded and you have to stand, things can get dicey when the train makes abrupt starts and stops. I can also see why they wouldnt want some idiot on skates to fall on the tracks.
I don't know the precise penalty ($60 is probably in the ballpark), but wearing rollerblades in the subway seems like an amazingly stupid idea. Why take the risk?
It's just a bit more stupid than the pea-brains who ride their bicycles on the platform. The thing is that the NYCT already has a rule about bikes in the system but since the NYPD assimilated the Transit Police, it's become a non-law.
While rollerblading on the train or platform is a bad idea, perhaps an indoor rollerdome might be a good use of all those empty IND plaforms. During winter nights and weekneds, pay with a Metrocard and you get to roll around a designated, three block long course. 7th Avenue in Park Slope would be particularly good for this purpose. This city is terrible short of recreation space. Anything to increase revenues and traffic in the station is a good thing.
7th Ave in Park Slope is hardly an empty platform. Try those first few stations in Queens on the 7 train
I'm not sure I'd want to "kiss" one of those steel I-beams holding up the mezzanine while rollerblading in it :)
--Mark
(Rollerblading in the mezzanine -- smack into an I-beam). They could pad the I-beams. The way I look at it, its better than getting hit by a truck or (if rollerblading in the park) running over my kids.
Maybe they get the ticket on "Unsafe Riding" which I know they can write you a ticket for that if you ride between cars.
When I was 19, I was coming home sick (with the flu) and had to "be sick". I went between cars when the train wasn't moving and did my thing. Got a ticket for it, I think it was $40 or $50 at the time (1986), don't remember. Just went with my doctors note and was told to be "sick" in the car next time. Hey at least I didn't pull the the emergancy brake cord for the "sick pax" in the 34st-west4th 6th ave tunnel.
If Amtrak's trains arrive in New York at Penn Station, what route do they take from the north, let's say, from Montreal? Is there an underground link from Grand Central?
The trains follow the Metro-North Hudson Line south to Spuyten Duyvil.They then cross the Harlem Ship Canal and run down Manhattan's West Side on what was known for many years as "The West Side Railroad" of the New York Central, actually this was the original mainline of the Hudson River Railroad.Just north of the 30 Street
Frieght Yards a new connection was built into Penn Station.
Redbird
I was recently looking at a road map of NYC with above-ground rail tracks, and I couldn't find any links that would allow the trains to travel from the Manhattan West Side New York Central rail line to, say, cities like Providence or Boston.
Do trains in that direction still go over the Hell's Gate bridge via Long Island? I know they did in the past, but I haven't heard much about them recently and I haven't been in town.
Now a more in-depth question: I recently read about the proposed Penn Station - Grand Central rail link. If the above paragraph is accurate, will Amtrak routes reaching New England be rerouted via GCT? And if so, what will become of Hell's Gate?
I may have misinterpreted your original posting.The trains that come down the Hudson Valley follow the route I described.However trains on the Northeast Corridor coming from New England do indeed use the Hell Gate Bridge then run through Queens and cross the East River at 34 Street to reach Penn Station. The tracks then continue west under the Hudson River to New Jersey and from there south to Philly and Washington.
Regards,Redbird
Trains going upstate mostly use Hell Gate.
The connection to GCT is a branch off from the LIRR in Queens, not a connection in Manhattan between Penn and GCT. Here is a report from www.railpace.com/hotnews/
"TUNNEL ENGINEERING STUDY: STV Incorporated, a wholly owned subsidiary of STV Group, Incorporated, in joint venture with Parsons Brinckerhoff (PB), has been selected by the New York City Metropolitan Transportation Authority (MTA) Board of Directors to provide tunnel engineering services for the East Side Access project for approximately $184 million. The project entails extending Long Island Rail Road (LIRR) service to Manhattan's east side into Grand Central Terminal. The tunnel engineering contract has a construction value of over $1.4 billion. The entire $2.3 billion East Side Access project is the largest single construction program ever undertaken by the MTA. The tunnel engineering portion encompasses the construction of new soft-ground tunnels in Queens that will connect to the existing 63rd Street tunnel, and new hard-rock tunnels under Manhattan's west side leading to Grand Central Terminal, as well as a new station in Sunnyside, Queens and new yards and maintenance facilities. The joint venture's work involves planning, preliminary and final design engineering and construction phase services. The LIRR is the busiest commuter railroad system in the country, yet its only entry into Manhattan is Penn Station on the west side. Penn Station has already reached its capacity and is constrained for future growth. The East Side Access project will ease congestion at Penn Station by offering direct service between Long Island and east Midtown Manhattan. An early study found that over one-half of the LIRR's customers work within the Grand Central Terminal area. Providing service into the terminal will save nearly 100,000 commuters more than 30 minutes each day, reduce traffic congestion and improve air quality. (STV via Steve Benkovitz- posted 2/02"
Just to summarized all the information I've received. Amtrak trains coming in to New York's Penn cross Hell's gate at reach Manhattan via Long Island. Do trains such as the Adirondack from Montreal use the route as suggested by RedbirdR33 along the Hudson (West Side Railway) and into Penn at 33rd Street? There must be a tunnel under Riverside Park. Also, when is the proposed tunnel into GCT from Long Island due for?
Many thanks.
Amtrak trains to New England (New Haven and points north and east) use the Hell Gate route to/from Penn Station. Amtrak trains to upstate New York (Albany and points north and west) use the Hudson River route. As for the tunnel connection from LI to GCT, it is at least a decade away, even though the tunnel under the East River has already been built - these trains will use the lower level of the 63rd St. tunnel, whose upper level is now used by subway trains to Roosevelt Island and 21 St./Queensbridge stations. Connecting the tunnel to GCT is the hard part; a connection on the Queens end also needs to be built. And yes, there HAS been some discussion of connecting Penn Station and GCT directly in Manhattan. Whether or not that will actually be done is still an open question.
Only trains on the Empire Corridore use the west side of manhattan. Trains bound for Albany and and points NorthWest of their go up the westside of manhattan using dual mode DC electric thrid rail underunning shoes and diesel (MetroMorth is Overrunning 3rd rail).
All service to Boston is via AC overhead via east river tubes then Hells Gate. There is an engine switch at New Haven (? Not sure if they wre gonna move the engine change point like they did in Philly) to diesel and most trains split service along the water to boston and in land to Springfield.
Just a follow -- AMTRACK is electifying the water route to Boston, so there will be all electric service soon.
AMTRAK's new Electric locomotives have some