 | |
| |
Looks like I may be the first post of the new year! Here's my question: Are trip hammers on the #7 line on the IRT side (right) or IND/BMT side (left)?
Trips are IRT-style on the Flushing line: on the "on" side
(right side).
I asked this once before and got no answer: As built for
dual operation, where were the trips on the Astoria and Corona lines?
Since the #7 line has BMT/IND signals, the 'trip cocks', mounted on the cars, and the 'stop arms' on the signals are on the 'opposite' side. Standard IRT trip cocks and stop arms are mounted on the cab side. This is the reason that Corona cars need no protection when operating over the BMT to Coney Island Yard.
> Since the #7 line has BMT/IND signals, the 'trip cocks', mounted on the cars, and the 'stop arms'
> on the signals are on the 'opposite' side. Standard IRT trip cocks and stop arms are mounted on the
> cab side. This is the reason that Corona cars need no protection when operating over the BMT to
> Coney Island Yard.
Wrong! The #7 line has standard IRT signals, with the trip cocks and stop arms mounted on the right. When operating over the BMT to Coney Island, the Flushing R-36 cars do need the protection of a Flushing R-33 car in the lead. The Flushing R-33's are equipped with tripcocks on both sides, although only those on one side are activated at any given time.
The BMT Astoria line, on the other hand, has normal BMT signals, with trip cocks and stop arms on the left. But the two lines were originally serviced by the same trains. So the question was: as originally built, where were the stop arms on the Flushing and Astoria lines, on the right or the left? I suspect on the right, IRT style. I believe the Flushing line operated continuously during the period in 1948 (or was it '49?) when the Astoria line closed briefly for conversion to BMT specs (I was going to say "standards", but that sounds like a bad pun). I would bet that, in addition to shaving back the edges of the platforms, the stop arms on the signals were also moved from the right to the left side of the trackbed at this time.
Now, you have new signals on the Astoria line, with all homesignals & switches controlled by Queensboro Plaza Master Tower. Before the new signals, there were IRT signals, with the trips on the left side of the motorman. Leaving Queensboro Plaza going toward BeeBee Ave., the homesignal there was, until the new signals, IRT aspects, the only one on the BMT/IND. When going local to Astoria: top green & bottom red. I believe for the middle it was a top red, bottom yellow. Here was the only place where a BMT/IND train could actually, legally, without keying by, pass a red signal.
Actually having worked the Astoria line before and after the conversion maybe I can set some facts straight. The line north of Beebe Av did have the big bulky cases of the IRT boxes, but the lenses were configured to BMT (G-Y-R top to bottom) with a red "K" underneath the automatic masts not on the middle track. There was also an "end of signal control" fixed signal south of Astoria Blvd on the middle track
but I can't remember where the signals began northbound. There were no grade timers leaving Astoria Blvd and the ones entering Queensboro Plaza, especially the home signal were dead slow. 4 ball north (60 St cut) has basically not changed because with the lack of a new punch at home signal #4 OR Lexington Av, Continental Av trains continue to ring the bell at 59 Street.
Happy New Years Everyone.
Unfortunatley, I had a tough ride to a party in Queens yesterday afternoon (4/5, 7). It reminded me of the tough ride home I had on Christmas Eve (A/C, F). On getaway days, people leave work early. Does the TA advance the rush hour schedules, running rush hour service from 2:00 to 6:00, or otherwise adjust?
If so, it doesn't do enough. Each day I left work between 2:00 and 3:00 p.m., along with the rest of the office. If I'm not mistaken, Wall Street operated only a half day. Depsite the fact that many people are not working this week (crowding was light on Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday) the getaway trains were more packed than those at any other time during the year. Waits between trains were long. There was no express service on the Flushing Line at 3:00, when I arrived at Grand Central.
I have observed the same problems on the Wednesday before Thanksgiving, and on the Friday before three day weekends/Monday holidays. I can only guess than by 6:00, the TA is running frequent service of empty trains.
So is there a getaway day service adjustment? If not, there should be.
They should run Weekday Schedule as well on the Saturday before Christmas, at least on the Sixth Avenue Line. Crowding on this line was severe about 4PM on December 19. A weekday schedule, including "Q" service, would have helped here.
Wayne
The TA has supplemental schedules for holiday days as well as the holiday eves. Most holiday eve supliments include an earlier rush hour AND extra trains.
Who [at the Transit Authority] would I address [either an exact individual or more general category] if I wanted to write a letter discussing the subway car fleet?
I know it would be somewhere in the Division of Car Equipment, but I need more specific information.
Thanks in advance
PS - A complimentary $10 Metrocard to the first person who can provide me with the necessary info (just kidding, of course . . . ;-)
[Who [at the Transit Authority] would I address [either an exact individual or more general category] if I wanted to write a letter discussing the subway car fleet?
I know it would be somewhere in the Division of Car Equipment, but I need more specific information.
Thanks in advance]
PS - A complimentary $10 Metrocard to the first person who can provide me with the necessary info (just kidding, of course . . . ;-)
Carlo Perciballi
Chief Mechanical Officer
MTA New York City Transit
Division of Car Equipment
370 Jay Street, Room 406
Brooklyn NY 11201
There is a book available, probably at the NYC transit museum, that has pictures and information on every subway car that was ever built for the IRT, BMT, IND and MTA.
Last Thursday evening, December 24, around 10:30 pm, I was waiting at 72nd Street for the uptown local. As the train pulled in I noticed something unusual. I asked the people standing next to me if my eyes were deceiving me or if that was really a 13 sign I saw on the front of the train, and they confirmed by observation (and asked me where the 13 train went). Once I boarded, I noticed that one of the side signs in my car also was turned to 13; the other one was at 1, but it had a destination of Utica Avenue. (When I commented on this, one of the other passengers responded that it must be going to New Jersey.) The 13 was in a red circle, incidentally.
Sounds like a combination of the #1 (from 242d-Broadway) and the #3 (to Utica Ave/Eastern Parkway). If it goes express between 96/Broadway and Chambers, it will be the old IRT Broadway/7th Ave. express service which stopped running 40 years ago (Feb. 1959).
Sorry, it ran local, at least from 72nd to 86th. I can't vouch for where it went from there, but all signs other than the one Utica Avenue one I noticed gave the usual 1 endpoints of 242nd and South Ferry.
As has been posted in nyc.transit and probably here, there are readings on the R-62's for 8,10,11, and others. They are for possible express routes especially for the Bronx.
8 would be the express for Pelham. The red 13 would imply perhaps a 7th Ave Through Express on White Plains Road.
If you want to go back in time the 13 was the BMT designation for the Fulton St el service from the 14th St subway. See this URL for a scan of the R-11 sign:
http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/rollsigns/r1bmtend.html
The Green Hornet also carried a #13 sign when it ran along the entire length of the Fulton St. el.
LIRR Diesel trains are not allowed in the tunnels and Penn Station. While NJ Transit and Amtrak diesels come into Penn tunnels and station. I might have seen a LIRR double-decker in Penn Station (not sure). Is the only reason LIRR diesels are not allowed in Penn is the size problem?
diesels are not alowed in the tubes from nj or penn station. nj transit and amtrack use only electric motors. it is not size problem but a smoke problem. there little to no ventilation in the tunnels
The Amtrak Genesis IIs (700 series) use the East River Tunnel to Penn Station from Sunnyside Yard and they are not electric (or am I mistaken) .
They are dual-mode
Diesel and electric (third rail), just like the [much] older and venerable F9's.
LONG ISLAND R.R. PURCHASED 3 FL-9 FROM METRO-NORTH TO USE FOR SERVICE INTO PENN.STA.,AND HAS ALSOPURCHASED DM30'S TO SUPPELMENT THAT
SERVICE.
No diesel locomotives at all are permitted in Penn Station because of the lack of tunnel ventilation. Both Amtrak and NJ Transit are subject to the same restrictions as the LIRR. As far as I know, the LIRR's protect locomotives at Harold Tower (used to rescue stranded electric trains from the tunnels) have had their exhausts specially modified to make them more suitable for tunnel operations.
You probably did see LIRR bilevels in Penn Station. These cars are part of an experimental trainset that's been in use for the past few years, running mainly on the Port Jefferson line and pulled by a older diesel locomotive that's been specially converted to run off the third rail as well as on diesel. Unfortunately, it's been quite unreliable, hence its nickname of the Bitanic :-) The LIRR's new bilevel cars also will be able to operate into Penn Station once the new order of dual-mode (diesel and electric) locomotives arrives.
On more than 1 occasion I have seen Amtrak Diesels in Penn Station
I believe they are pulled in by electrics from the Sunnyside yards
and leave under their own power via the West exit. Some mornings
their is a definite diesel fume smell in the station.
The one exception might be the west side Amtrak service up the Hudson. Does anyone know if those tracks are electrified?
They are not electrified. However, back in the days when it was the NY central west side freight line it was electrified. When Amtrak with the help of Sen. Alphonse D'Amato relaid double track on the west side it was not electrified. I think you can still see the ruins of NYC electrical Substations in Upper Manhattan. I wonder if Sen. Charles Shummer will be as good a friend of transit as Sen. D'Amato was?
D'Amato was a good friend of transit in the suburbs, but an enemy of transit/education/etc. in the city. He shifted funds, rather than increase them. As for clueless Chuck, he won't even do that. What a choice we had.
Give Chuck a chance. Al got too big for his own pants. He turned into a boss. You can than Al for Governor Pataki. Plus, he was the first guy to be after Bill & Hillary's butts from the day they moved into the White House.
For those interested ,,,the new Store is opening on or approx the 28th of the month
Right now,,there is a small counter and a few shelves in place,,outside of the store
Hello
I live in Paris and I was surprised to learn how many collisions or severe accidents happen in the subway in New York.
In Paris, this never happens (It happened only five or six times since 100 years).
Can anybody explain to me this discrepancy?
Gabriel
Gabriel, I live in England and at first I was also surprised at the "miles per casualty" record of the NYCTA Subway operations, BUT and it is a big but!! look at the system, look at the map, the level of service is twice that of say London Underground or the Paris Metro and services operate 24 hours a day.Like the London Underground system New York has trainstops/Tripcocks that "trip" trains that pass a signal at danger or fail to slow down at a restriction this is the main safety feature and in most cases the Last line of defense.
I would say that if you compare the accidents to number of movements ratio New York City is no different from Paris,London or any other world metro system. Further replies will follow to your and my response I am sure !!!!!
Rob :^)
Well the NYCTA is twice as big as the Paris Metro. The Paris Metro has less curves and less tracks. If you look at the Map on the site you will see how complex the NYCTA is. Also the 3 main reason for the worst accidents in the NYCTA are durnk drivers, Malfunctions on the swiches/lights, no knowledge of the route. Look also at the accidents section and will the one of the 3 reasons are the cause of the accidents.
I VIOLENTLY take issue with the drunk driver characterization. The only time that was true was in the Union Square crash. Most collisions happen due to inattention. The findings on the WillyB crash was that the Motorman fell asleep while operating. His blood/alcohol was "clean". You will find that in the overwelming majority of collisions the motorman was not impaired by drugs or alcohol.
Well the NYCTA is twice as big as the Paris Metro. The Paris Metro has less curves and less tracks. If you look at the Map on the site you will see how complex the NYCTA is. Also the 3 main reason for the worst accidents in the NYCTA are durnk drivers, Malfunctions on the swiches/lights, no knowledge of the route. Look also at the accidents section and all of the accidents have at least one of the 3 reasons as the main cause.
You accused motormen in the worst accidents being drunk, yet you typed "durnk" and posted the same message twice. Am I on to something????????????
Hey C James, why don't you get out that spelling book of yours.
Spell? He should get a life! Those stupid papers he reads should be burned. His mentality is typical of a few supervisors I deal with. Totally ignorant
[Spell? He should get a life! Those stupid papers he reads should be burned. His mentality is typical of a few supervisors I deal with. Totally ignorant]
Based on things he's said before, I believe that C. James is only 13 or 14 years old. There's no need to be so harsh on him.
Peter Rosa is right; C James is thirteen. Let us cut him some slack.
His youth may cause him to have a different (not necessarily correct) perspective on the events described. When I was about C. James' age, the fatal accident on the IND at Roosevelt Avenue occurred. My own reactions to this incident were approximately the same as C.James'; in terms of how handled I it (I wrote a lengthy [free verse] poem describing and memorializing the incident, hand-illustrated it [R16 and R40M details included] and it got published in the literary magazine at school). No doubt C.James loves the subway as much as I did at his age, and as much as I still do at the age of 44 (and as much as my fellows here at Sub Talk do). To see something bad happen to something you hold dear is traumatic. Youth tends to over-melodramatize these situations. By the same token, to paint all operators involved in accidents as being under the influence is wrong (misinformed), and your ire is justified under these conditions. Perhaps C.James could benefit from a visit to www.ntsb.gov (as described by Peter Rosa) to see all of the unvarnished truth and to get the unbiased facts. As the years go by, the angst of youth inevitably gives way to maturity and level-headedness.
Let us all be of good will.
Wayne L. Whitehorne
I have a son who is about C. James' age (14). He also like trains, we go on trips together and we can hardly wait for our AMTRAK trip to Florida in August. I was quite upset about the drunk reference as you may have read my original response. It has been hammered into my sons' head by myself, my wife & school (and to my 10 year old), that drinking, and doing drugs will bring yourself down, your family and others. Robert Ray is paying the price. He is the cause of lots of new restrictive rules on all transportation workers not only in the TA but nationwide. I tell my sons drinking, drugs & smoking (brown lungs) are financially draining as well to support your habit. You will not find hard liquor in my house. I buy one case of beer a year. I seldom have a cold one! If you have a beer in my house, that born on date ain't too good! His statement was of the typical TA & newpaper thinking however: automatically a guy who makes a mistake is into drinking or drugs. That is not so. Most mistakes are made because of inattention, fatigue, or carelessness. Lots of people have erasers on the pencil to correct their mistakes, but our mistakes are very much out in the open.
It certainly sounds like you have the right idea about educating your children about the perils of alcohol, tobacco and drug use. More power to you. I don't have children, but if I did, I would no doubt endeavor to educate them the same way. I do not drink (my choice, total abstinence), but I do smoke (about one pack a day), something I wish I did not do. I have been contemplating Nicotrol 21mg patches, If the price of cigarettes continues to go up I will no doubt quit.
I am not in agreement with the broad brush with which C.James painted those involved in accidents, etc. It is a shame what happened in August 1991, but inevitably one bad apple will ruin it for the whole bunch.
Regards,
Wayne
I don't agree with C. James either. His statement,however,indicates a common public misconception: that alcohol & drug abuse is widespread among transit and railroad employees. Much of this stems from the Amtrak incident at Chase,MD. in 1987,in which a set of Conrail locomotives ran a STOP signal and collided with an Amtrak train,killing 16 people. The Conrail engineer admitted to the use of alcohol and marijuana. At later investigative hearings he stated that he felt he was being singled out;after all,"everybody else does it".
Naturally,the media jumped on this;alcohol and drug use is now cited as a possible cause by the media in every accident.
This incident and its attendant publicity led to federally mandated random drug & alcohol testing for railroad operating employees. In the 8 or so years tests have been conducted,the FRA reports that the annual positive test rate has been consistently below 1%. I've yet to see THAT make the headlines.
NYC transit workers are a proud and tough breed no matter what classification or division they work in. We are proud of what we do every single day and defend any unjust accusations against us. Im sure those who responded to Chris did not know his age however.
There is one positive thing about the media wanting to blame transit accidents to drugs and alcohol. It is well known that all transit workers in this country do a damn good job and that we are professionals so that they must be a explaination as to why a bad one occasionally happens. I remember preliminary reports of the Union Square crash were that crack vials were found in the cab Ray was operating from.
Speaking of the Union Square wreck, does anyone know what's become of Robert Ray? He's probably been released from prison by now. I wonder where he's been able to find work, as he obviously has had to change careers.
Wayne, I have 2 unique perspectives of the Roosevelt Avenue incident. I am curious about what you know of the incident. I'd also be interested in anyone elses perception of that accident.
The way I recollect it is thus: R40M GG led by #4501 (ex #4301) was disabled on the local track at Roosevelt with brake problems. R16 GG was routed around the disabled train and arrived on the express track at Roosevelt. The two trains departed the station at approximately the same time, with the R40M being operated blind from the third car (an unwise practice) The operator of the R40M did not see the R16 switching back to the local track in front of his train. He may have left the station below key-by speed (4 MPH) and accelerated slightly. In any case, the R40M continued forward on the local track even as the R16 switched into its path. As a result, the forward car of the R40M train came in front-to-side contact with the fifth car of the R16 train (#6304). This contact caused the R16 car to derail right to left from the rest of the train and it came into frontal contact with the edge of the curtain wall between the express and local tracks. This impact sheared open the front of the car just at the left edge of the storm door frame and continued back along the left side of the car as far as the #6 door, exposing much of the car's left side. There were two fatalities among the R16's passengers. The front of the forward car of the R40M was seriously damaged at the left (sign side) corner, breaking her bonnet and extending damage into the seating area opposite the operator's cab. It was subsequently repaired and returned to service, where it remains today.
Wayne
The reason I asked was because I was there that AM, on my way to school. I remembered seeing a Road Car Inspector running up and down the platform, preparing the disabled train for movement. I was really impressed with how the RCI took charge of the situation. That was the first time I ever thought of working for the TA.
Of course, what ultimately happenes was that the first 2 cars of the dis-abled train were completely isolated (air and electric). Therefore, there was no communication to the 3rd car where the motorman was. The conductor went to the head car and the RCI was in the 2nd. Using their flashlights, they were going to flag the train into the clear. (BTW - the RCI was not on duty. He was on his way to work and stopped to help).
The R-16 was re-routed around the dis-abled train and was being crossed back to the local track. The dis-abled train also began moving and for whatever reason, they flagged the motorman through the homeball and into the side of the road train. The train did not trip because the first 2 cars were isolated and had their brakes cut out. Of course, I could see it coming but just stood there, mouth open, watching.
Well, the aftermath turned out to be somewhat ironic for me. The RCI, who was not qualified to flag a train, was blamed for the entire incident. He was arrested and charged with manslaughter. I don't know what if anything ever happened to the motorman or conductor. (The RCI was cleared about a year later and was given his job back but never was permitted to work the road again). I went on to do my thing until for several years until I heard that the TA was hiring RCIs. In school, they taught us about the possible consequences of our actions and cited that incident among others. 3 years later, I became a supervisor. In February of 1985, I was running the Car Desk at Jamaica Maintenance Shop. One of the car checkers who would be working for me was a short, white haired gentleman with a heavy Irish Brough . It was that same RCI whom I watched so admiringly and who, only seconds later was held responsible for the first deaths on the system in decades. He worked for me until he retired in 1988 or 89.
I met the train operator of the disabled train. We had spoke for a few mintues at St. Mary's hospital about 6 years ago we I had worked for an ambullette company, before my employment at NY transit. He had told me that he felt it was wrong that he got fired, since he was just taking orders and following the instructions of the conductor and Road car inspector. Being a transit buff you could have imagined the possibilities of my meeting him and how surprised he was that I knew so much information about the accident. I was like a child plugging him with questions abut the fateful morning.
It truly is a small world.
I didn't know that he was fired. Thanks for the information
Wow, Steve, what a way to start :)
I have a couple of questions...did this all take place at Roosevelt
Ave? I.e. the b/o train was on D1 track and the RCI responded there
and BCOd it there? The "popular" account of this accident has
the train laying down at a previous station, BCOd there, and
is already moving light through Roosevelt.
Is it possible that 1 track had the ball, and the tower (which
is on the north end of the n/b plat) dropped it and gave the
lineup to D3 while the local train had already started moving?
Of course it would be speculation at this late date but either was equally possible. However, one thing I am sure of; The RCI 'responded' to the situation while he was off duty and on his way to work. For a long time, he was the "Never Volunteer - MYOB" poster boy for the RCIs.
Thank you for sharing that experience. I remember the date clearly - Wednesday, May 20, 1970; I heard about it as I was ready to leave for school (it happened at 7:42am) and I was deeply moved - this was the first time I had heard of loss of life in a subway accident (the last fatal accident I believe was August 24, 1928). I had always known the subway to be a safe place, this incident (and the one that followed in July at Hoyt-Schermerhorn) made me think again. In the summer, Dad and I visited Jamaica Yard one one of his off days (and with the permission of one of his NYCT friends) and saw #6304 from a safe distance - seeing the amount of damage to her, it was a miracle that there was no greater loss of life.
#4501 was repaired at CI I believe, using some sheet-metal from #4200, a Slant R40 damaged in a yard accident, and she got a new bonnet as well. I've seen her recently on the "J" and "L" lines in my travels.
Wayne
I was in High School at the time. I remember everybody from Greenpoint late for school that day! As for the accident, it was a big topic in my training for motorman. As far as I'm concerned, it was improper flagging procedures by the crew of the GG train. The procedure now is the person flagging must be constantly talking to the operator. The operator must stop immediately if he doesn't hear commands of the flagging person in the front.
You guys are arguing with a 12 year old. Cut the kid some slack!!!
Mr. Rivera, who the HELL told you that. Were you at Union Square? You'll beleive any thing you read in the papers. Being a fourteen year
veteran, I know if I killed several people in an accident, I would probably not be able to keep calm and take control of the situation. Drinking after the accident was something that your liberal newspapers would not report. They also reported that Robert Rays cab had a crack vial on the floor. Do you think he smoked it too? Why didn't you state
that we do drugs too? I remember the newspapers quoting several witnesses as stating the motorman was RUNNING up the stairs to the street. Do you ever see a whino or men RUNNING out of a bar? If you do you also see little green men driving our buses and trains. Stop drinking yourself, as "drunk drivers" may be a problem on our roads bridges and tunnels but Not our system. Talk to workers, not just news reporters and get the full picture.
You are correct in that it can't be determined conclusively whether the alcohol found in the Union Square motorman's system was consumed before or after the crash. But it has been documented - see the NTSB report, available online at www.ntsb.gov - that he had been operating the train in a highly erratic manner almost since the beginning of the run. That at least creates a very strong suspicion that he was intoxicated at the time of the crash.
I jumped the gun about my original statement about his fitness for duty. But, if I recall, his blood-alcohol level was quite high, and the investigators felt that, given this level, he couldn't have gotten that intoxicated so fast so soon after the crash. Again, I may be wrong about that. The fact remains that he came into work at the last minute, the trin actually left a few minutes late & he put 5 cars out of the station at Mosholu Pkwy., the first stop down the line, according to the conductor.
One of the reasons why air and train travel is statistically
so much safer than automobile travel is the provision of
redundancies. In a car, usually only ONE thing needs to go
wrong to result in an accident (e.g. driver takes eye off
road). If you look at the history of railway accidents in
the modern (post 1910) era, you'll see that in almost every case,
at least TWO, and often a lot more things had to go wrong at
the same time to cause the accident.
The list of things that went wrong in the Union Sq incident
is long. First, Ray was known up and down the A division as
a screwup. His Dispatcher failed to detect or act upon his
condition upon reporting for duty. His Conductor and a NYCTPD
officer who was on the train during a portion of the trip also
failed to act. The inadequate protection of turnouts by the
signal system at Union Square and dozens of other locations was
known within the TA for many years before the accident (this
is what the WHEEL DETECTORs address). GC Tower should not
have left the ball fleeted in. And of course, most people
believe that the Motorman was legally intoxicated at the time
of the accident.
This is not a soapbox posting about morality, responsibility
or liability. Just pointing out that when bad things happen,
there is always more than one reason.
P.S. Cut C.J. Rivera some slack. He's 14. Hey should start
coming down to Murray Street on the 3rd friday of the month
and began his railducation through the ERA.
I don't believe
alchohol or drug impairment is currently a problem in NYCTS,
although it may have been more of a problem back then than it
is now. Bill is correct: inattention is the primary cause of
most accidents. That can be caused by intoxication; it can also
be caused by being overworked.
It's interesting you mention the conductor's failure to act as a contributing cause in the Union Square wreck. As I recall from the NTSB report, under the operating rules in effect at the time the conductor wasn't certain whether he had the authority to take the train out of service. He did warn the motorman, but may have thought that he'd be subject to discipline if he pulled the brake cord or otherwise stopped the train. As a result of the crash, the rules have been revised to make the conductor's duties more clear.
Hello Peter,
Do you have the Union Square NTSB report in PDF (Acrobat Reader) format? I simply must clear up the lingering doubts as to the order of the R62s involved and the only way to find out is via NTSB.
To all others interested in obtaining same:
It's not readily available from NTSB, rather NTIS and they want $28.50 for it.
Catalogue number PB92-916304INZ
order@ntis.fedworld.gov
Thanks,
Wayne
Wayne, I have the downloaded NTSB report on my work computer. I can save it to a floppy and send it to you. Most likely, it'll be at least Thursday or Friday before I can do that.
I am *really* annoyed that the NTSB no longer makes its reports available online!
Actually, they DO (up to a point), I will E-mail you with my address and the Williamsburg Bridge Accident of June 5, 1995 PDF file (zipped - RAR9603.zip, containing RAR9603.pdf), if that is OK with you. (I always send ZIP files, all e-mail systems seem to handle them OK).
Regards and many thanks in advance,
Wayne L. Whitehorne
NYCT with its 468 stations and over 700 miles of track is much larger than the Paris Metro, so there is a much greater margin for incidents here. Most of the incidents reported here can be laid to either mechanical failure or human error. Here's a sampling:
Feb 3 1998 Rear end collision on elevated structure - Human error -operator ran red lite
Nov 20 1997 Rear end collision underground (minor) - signal malfunction
Jul 15 1997 Derailment underground - mechanical fault of switch
Jul 3 1997 Derailment underground - mechanical fault of switch
Jun 5 1995 + Rear end collision on bridge - operator fell asleep
Feb 9 1995 Rear end collision on elevated -operator ran red lite
Aug 15 1994 Derailment in tunnel - human error - tower operator threw switch
Oct 7 1993 Rear end collision underground (minor) - operator ran red lite
Aug 28 1991 + Derailment underground - human error - operator was intoxicated and was speeding when he crossed a switch
Jul 26 1990 Rear end collison (minor)-operator ran red lite
(+) fatality
Taking the number of daily trips into consideration, and there are thousands upon thousands, and the number of people moved daily, the New York Subway has to be among the safest in the entire world.
Perhaps it is the press that is magnifying these incidents...
Wayne
In 1997, the NYCT logged more than 59,000,000 revenue miles. That's car miles in revenure service. I wouldn't begin to estimate the non-revenue miles. In 1998, it'll wind up being more than 60,000,000. In 1999, we are gearing up for a 250,000 mile per month increase due to additional revenue trips. If you can get the same figures from the Paris Metro or the London Underground, I'd be curious to see a comparison.
Obviously, one collision is one collision too many. And certainly, a motorman involved in a collision probably just made his last move. But, every collision resulting in injury/property damage will make front page news. It is sensationalistic journalism at its best. It sells newspapers! Same hold true with bus accidents which has been front page news as well lately. We can all drive our vehicles a little more slowly, but that is for another messageboard! Yet I would dare say, our ratio to "successes" vs. "failures" is second to none.
What I meant is that only one accident was caued by drunk driving (The Union Sqaure Crash) Only one is due no knowlege of the tracks(The Malbone Street Crash) The other crashes and accidents are due to Malfunctions in signals and tracks. I am very sorry for not being more specific.
Christopher Rivera
Yesterday WNBC ch 4 in NYC ran a GREAT report on how apparently the only place to buy a Metrocard Funpass was at the Metropass Bus!! SURPRISE SURPRISE!! Love to here the MTA exuse on this one!!
The problem seems to be that there just aren't enough locations for a city this size, and that the vendors that have them have been selling out very early. The latter problem will problem be fixed, but the obvious solution remains:sell them in the token booths.
( but the obvious solution remains:sell them in the token booths. )
amen to that. Can anyone tell me why they can't sell these metrocards by vending machine? to simplify things they can make the machine collect the money electronically, i.e. only credit or debit cards accepted, no cash. If you need to use cash go to the token agent, Why an Agent of the MTA does not sell ALL their fare instuments is a mystery to me.
> Can anyone tell me why they can't sell these metrocards by vending machine?
I *Thought* I saw a flyer indicating that they WILL be sold in the vending machines, but it was so cold this weekend that I may have been hallucinating.
--Mark
Oh, yes, they will be sold in vending machines.
Now, could you kindly direct me to the nearest MetroCard vending machine?
Ah, that's a good one - almost like trying to find an "O" train!
Seriously, if enough people make enough noise about the (un)availability of these passes, I do believe the kind folks at Jay Street will get the message. You'd think they'd supply the vendors with an adequate allotment of these....go figure!
Wayne
I will point out that the ad in today's NYTimes claimed that they will be available in vending machines at 68 and 59-CC on January 25.
The same hallucination also said something about the vending machines being installed in June. I don't remember where.
--Mark
I'm sure the fun pass won't be sold on the MetroCard Bus any more once the initial supply runs out due to the TA being embarassed by Channel 4. Maybe that will embarass the TA/MTA to bring them into the booths. The transaction time would be short since they can be pre-packaged.
I was in NYC New Years Day with relatives from Boston. I met them at Grand Central and proceeded to the 2 newstands open to get the Funpasses. Both were sold out (this was 11am). I wasn't going to walk everyone to the MetLife building, the other place they claimed to be available. And the outside newstands were closed for the holiday. And I wasn't going to look for the MetroCard bus (which I saw hours later parked in Times Square).
What a boondoggle. The Funpass is no Fun to get. It reminds me of posts I saw on this site regarding the daily CTA pass that you couldn't get. Who's the (*#*(&^$ that decided that they won't be sold at the most OBVIOUS place to get one, the token booth? Wonder if this person used to work for CTA .... (Say, what will the new name of the token booth be once the tokens are phased out ... the MetroCard assistance center?)
--Mark
Ah, the Chicago daily pass. I once tried to get one. I was driving into Chicago (from ~150 miles south) and wanted to park the car somewhere and hop onto the L. I called the CTA and asked if there was anywhere I could both park the car and buy the daily pass. I was told that all of the Orange line stations south of the Loop sold the pass and that many had park-and-ride lots. So I drove up to the Orange line (I ended up parking on the street since all the spots in the lot were filled, but whatever), ventured into the station, and was told that the nearest place to buy the card was at the Midway Airport station, which I was proudly told was only a few stops away on the Orange line. When I pointed out that the $1.50 fare I'd have to pay to get there would negate any benefit of the pass, the attendants concurred. I ended up spending less than $5 in fares anyway, so I'm glad I was prevented from buying one -- but I hope the NYC pass doesn't turn into the same mess.
Did you try the concession stand? In the Orange Line stations other than Midway, it's NOT the CTA personnel that are selling the Visitor Passes but the newsagent/concessionaire. Only at Midway, O'Hare, and Rosemont stations have I seen stand-alone CTA-operated machines that dispense Visitor Cards. (The list of sales locations the CTA gives out on its pamphlet and website is out of date: it doesn't mention these machines.) At the other sales locations you buy it from a clerk or storekeeper,and not CTA personnel.
That's because, for security and anti-embezzlement reasons, CTA station agents don't handle money anymore. They give directions or tell you how to work the card-vending machines, but they don't sell tokens, collect fares, or even make change.
Concession stand? I don't think I saw a concession stand. If there was one, would it have been inside fare control? That's about as useful as making me go to Midway. Besides, why couldn't the station agents direct me to the concession stand?
There was a concession stand at Midway station -- outside the fare-paid area -- the last time I was there, about 5 or 6 months ago, and considering the station's traffic, I would doubt that if one concessionaire left, the CTA would lose much time finding a new tenant.
I hear the excuse that booth agents don't want to be overloaded, but consider this: Yes, it is an additional product, but it is a very simple product - one card, one price. It is a slightly simpler transaction than most token transactions, which is what it replaces. Plus you can eliminate many people coming to a booth more than once in a day, so you have slightly fewer people aproaching a booth at all.
I think the booth agents equate an aditional product at their booth with additional people at their booth demanding that new product, but that is not that case. This SIMPLE product replaces the more complicated token transactions for the most frustrating customers - tourists.
This is simply my opinion - I would very much like to hear what others have to say about this. Does my logic make sense?
Don't put it on the agents that they don't want to sell it. Blame the TA/MTA. The MTA board made the decision where the passes would/not be sold. The TA & any other big business feels this way about their employees vs. their workload: If you don't like it, then QUIT. The time it takes for an agent to explain to a customer the reason why the pass is not sold at the booth despite the fact the pass is heavily advertised at the booth, that clerk could have sold him the pass, but the booth wouldn't have the software.
I wasn't trying to place blame on booth agents. I apologize for making it seem that way.
However, workload is the only explanation I have seen for not selling them at the booths. Regardless of who makes the decision, I belive my argument against the workload excuse is a valid one.
[ The time it takes for an agent to explain to a customer the reason why the pass is not sold at the booth despite the fact the pass is heavily advertised at the booth, that clerk could have sold him the pass, but the booth wouldn't have the software. ]
That's an excellent point - not only might workload be reduced by selling the FunPass at station booths, but NOT selling it will INCREASE workload and frustration among booth agents.
IS THERE another explanation for the MTA deciding against selling FunPasses at station booths, other than workload??
The TA/MTA were pressured into the one day fun pass by the politicians because of the artifically high surplus (caused by lots of MetroCard money being paid up front before the ride is taken). A person who may go shopping via subway only, for example, from home, shops, another stopover, then home (3 fares) would have a 50 cents savings over the standard fare. I really don't think the MTA/TA really wants a one day pass because if they sell a lot, they would be inundated with riders, it would be rush hour all day because many, many more trains would have to be added, additional car mileage=more wear & tear on the equipment=more money needed for maintance & shorter car life, etc. The TA/MTA may feel that operating expenses may go so high that the pass would be a money loser in the long run. So you make it harder to get. This is the TA/MTA mentality, in my editorial opinion!
If it were my railroad I would be out shopping for more units. I would
probably try and have at least 6500 and maybe even 7000 on the road if I could (but I can't - I can only suffer along with the rest of the riders). And I wouldn't be buying tin cans either - I'd have the engineers specify solid stuff like the R32, R38 etc. And the aforementioned bunch (along with their angular friends the R40 plus their cousins R40M and R42) would head off for another trip to the Fountain of Youth round about 2002.
Wayne
I would consider a carbody design like that of the BMT standard. Now, THAT was one tough bastard, if you'll pardon my French. At least it wouldn't be cut in half if it were to derail and crash into a curtain wall. Come to think of it, a BMT standard could have taken a few pillars out and emerged unscathed. Of course, it would have both route AND destination signs up front - something which should be put back on the R-32s and R-38s.
Amen to THAT, my friend! No more #1437's or #5282's...Perhaps I would consider stainless for the exterior skin only, but inside it would be at least a double layer of reinforced carbon steel, treated with some sort of rustproofing finish.
Speaking of BMT Standards - I keep hearing conflicting stories about the R143s - some folks say they'll be 60 feet, others say 67. I am going to wait and see when they are delivered. Have you heard anything?
PS Let's ditch the dinky R32 end signs and do what you suggested.
AND the R32GE have larger signs than the rest of the R32- like the R38
but they have a plain rectangular rubber grommet around the outside, not like the R38s which have "feet" on the lower corners. (Saw this on #3937 which was laid up in Dyckman Street's center tracks 12/26/98)
Thanks,
Wayne
I'm not so sure that the success of the FunPass would result in a huge ridership increase. I could see people using transit instead of walking for short distances - because they are using a FunPass that day, but I don't think such short trips by a few people would affect the system to the extent you describe.
I primarily see the FunPass simply replacing tokens for people who would be riding the system anyway.
Gee ... isn't having significantly increased ridership a GOOD problem to have? As a business, wouldn't I want to have MORE customers? Isn't the MTA in the business of moving people?
Yes, I think the FunPass is going to lead to increased ridership but I don't think it's going to inundate the system to extremes, especially if the sales of the pass are concentrated in Manhattan for tourists. So limit the sales to Manhattan token booths south of 59th Street, for example.
Customers seeking out the funpasses are going to be mightly dissatisfied when they don't find one. I know I was on New Years Day.
--Mark
Yes, increased ridership is a good thing to have. It also creates more JOBS. All I was trying to point out is that overhead & car mileage/maintance costs would increase due to more service necessary to be provided. To that end, the cash generated by the extra ridership may be insufficient to pay for these costs.
This post is based on actuyal happenings in the booth, but some items have been santizied for security concerns:
We go to the assigned booth and identify ourselves to the person already in the booth. If more than one we ascertain who we will relieve.
We test the alarm system and empty the turnstiles. We then count the tokens using a mechanical counter. We then look at their report to see how many tokens, the four kinds of pre-coded metrocards, block tickets, senior/disabled tickets. g.o. tickets, keys, property (megaphone, counters, books, flashlight, etc.) we then count everything in the booth -if it matches good: if not try again, still bad- they pay or if large enough call for supervisor.
After we are happy with the money we look at their paperwork again and their bag with their deposit. we watch them deposit their bag in the safe and sign their report. They then sign odff the computer and go home.
during our shift- they may pick=up from the safe-if so we must leave the booth and watch them empty the safe. a supervisor may call for number of tokens. others may be in our station and we have to sign their time. If we work nights, we set-up funds for part-time booths. we also verify when the p[art-tiem booth returns to be sure they have eneyrthing they should and watch them deposit their bag (if they deposit it at our booth). If there is an emergency we issue block tickets, accident reports, call police, fire, lighting maintenance. monitor tv cameras, elevator/escalator alarms,etc.
we do all this without closing the window!
I think the TA has a master plan to stop doing one & two fare sales. Can you say E-Z-Pass ... ,i.e. by selling a weekly or monthly unlim pass or a value pass it cuts down on the traffic & lines at the Token Booths ... we've also heard that THEY want to get the Token Booth Agents out of the booth, well they can't be walking around being helpful if they're stuck in the booth selling tokens & one-day passes.
P.S. Maybe I'm just an old fart, but I don't like buying a LIRR ticket or tokens from a machine.
Mr t__:^)
Yes, you make perfect sense. My stand on all this is - I am one of those people who stand to save money on this since I exit and re-enter the system frequently during my trips - the Fun Pass is a Metro Card and since it is a Metro Card it should be sold wherever all other Metro Cards are sold - mainly, at the Token Booth. Even the Mayor wanted them sold at token booths but he was shouted down. If there is enough hue and cry about the unavailability of this card it should reach the appropriate set(s) of ears. The only problem is - will they listen?
We shall see, we shall see...
Wayne
For those interested in signal systems, I have completed the scans of the Conrail Signals from the 1979 Rulebook. The 25 pages, which include the aspects, indications and definitions, are zipped into one file (311 KB) and are free for the asking. Also available are the Old NYCT, Path, LIRR and C&O/B&O.
Hello all,
I am a NYC Transit buff who collects subway tokens. Not much value, but a hell of alot of family memories. My grandfather worked for the NYC Transit Authority for over 30 years (as well as the Independant). I collect all the tokens, and look to expand my collection with the commerative "Archer Ave." tokens as well as the original token issued in 1953 (the dime sized with no "Y" cutout. I collect ALL NYC Transit tokens. If you have some in good condition and want to sell, let me know. If you have any questions about the tokens history, just ask. If you have some token trivia or info, please write. I am always looking for more information. I also have some New York City Transit Police patches to trade for tokens. Brand new and duty worn.
Thanks for reading,
"Joe Buff"
If you want tokens, the Transit Museum gift shop located in a vintage subway station at Boerum Place and Schermerhorn St in Brooklyn sells collectors sets. Included are all tokens from 1953-1995, and two special tokens one of which, is a 75th Anniversary token of the founding of the NYC subway (1979) and a special token to commemorate the opening of the Archer Av line (E,J,Z) in December 1988. They come in a special case, so I would suggest you come and check it out!
For info, call the Transit Museum at (718) 243-8601.
Sincerely,
Constantine Steffan
Constantine,
Thank you for your information. I have been to the Transit Museum many, many times. In fact I have bought some of my old single tokens there. The collector set, I have never seen or knew to exist. I will definately look into it. THANK YOU very much for the information and help.
Joe
Joe, Do you know of the AVA, Am Vecturist Assoc ? They have a catalog of transit tokens through out the US & some foreign too. Basically anything that says "ride" on it of can be atributed to a transit company is listed. They publ a monthly newletter too.
In NYC you'll also see listed: H&M One Fare; Ave B & E Broadway; 3rd Ave RR; IRT Co; 8th Ave lines; Brooklyn & Queens Transit Corp; NYC BMT Div (1/2 fare); Jamaica Bus Inc, North Shore Bus Co ... I have just picked out a few from the NYC listing.
I subscribed so I could figure out what some of the old junk was that I found when I got this job ... you can't sell it if you don't know what it is. People aren't beating don't my door for it, so I'm becomming a bit of a buff. So long a I sell more then the cost of the membership to the orgn., the boss doesn't complain too much.
Anyhow I know of several local "TT" orgn. (NJ, CT), they're small groups, except of AVA.
Mr t__:^)
I've collected a bunch of NYC subway tokens over the years myself. AFAIK, I have examples of every one except the first dime-sized token without the Y cutout, and the Archer Ave. opening commemorative. I'll have to ask about that token set the next time I'm at the Transit Museum.
Many interesting threads, especially from Steve who ended up working for the TA after seeing an incident occur.
In London, London Underground operates 4 squads of Emergency Response Units (E.R.U) that attend collisions/derailments etc etc in addition to a E.R.U. Command and control rig that is used as the incident control point. My question then is:
What sort of Emergency response crews does NYCTA operate (not including Transit Police/NYPD ESU)
how many teams ?? where are they based?? are they a dedicated squad or do they perform other jobs inbetween calls..???
Thanks in advance for any replies.......
Rob :^)
The Emergency Response Unit is a segment of the Division of Car Equipment. They function in several ways. Their primary identity has always been having Road Car Inspectors stationed strategically throughout the system. They respond to virtually all car equipment failures and emergencies. The second function are the EDVs which are trucks which cruise around the city, monitoring the radio and responding to calls for assistance. The third function is the coordination which is done from 2 locations. The emergency response function is done from 370 Jay Street on the 3rd floor while the train trouble control function is done from Box Street in Brooklyn.
In the event of a colision or derailment, the Division of car Equipment as well as RTO all become subordinate to the Maint. of Way people who control any accident scene. It is their responsibility to clear the tracks and repair what needs repairing to restore service ASAP.
During such incidents, the response by NTCT employees is magnificent. In the case of the July 3rd A train accident, managers, supervisors and hourly worked together to clear the road in an unbelieveable 20 hours. Most of the managers and even some hourly were volunteers. We do tend to rise above our petty differences when we need to.
On Dec 15, 1999 watch how quickly the T.A. will forget how magnificent we really are as we go to the bargaining table for the new contract.
Harry, I suppose you're right, much the same way that the TWU forgets it. Management's job is to manage the best service as economically as possible while the TWU will try to get as much for its' members and give the least to the system. When a balance is struck, you have a contract. I have a copy of the "Schedule of Working Conditions" dated July 30, 1943. You'd be suprised what people back then had to endure and how far you have come. You also have to understand that the people who negotiate the contract are not the managers who are in the field. We are a different animal... Every manager up to and including the Chief Officer of every division knows he/she can't get it done without the hourly employees. The fact that the system works so well is a tribute to the mutual cooperation and respect in the field (isolated cases not withstanding).
Now a question for you:
Several posters here, specificly, Bill, Mike, Damage and yourself seem to have very little positive to say about the system and the job in general. My questions are:
1) Are you all in RTO?
2) Why is it that RTO personnel seem so much more disgruntled?
3) Why do you stay in a job that you seem to dislike so much?
Please don't take this personally but when I find one of my employees with a similar problem with the job, I ask very similar questions. You can't do a good job if you are unhappy....
Yes, I am in RTO. Why am I disgruntled? Because I don't feel we get proper respect. Our passengers are very hostile. We only hear complaints, never compliments. I am operating equipment which is is underpowered and do not stop the way it should. The cabs on the cars I normally operate the R40/42 are freezing. The cab heaters are vertically across the floor (not horizontal like the R32) and all they do it heat up the radio brackets which should be removed as they are not needed. In good weather, the cab windows don't stay in the position you put them, they slide back & forth. I get a bad taste in my mouth when I had to go down for a "random" at 10 PM, after I had been working for 5 hours. Were they suspecting me of drinking during working hours? What about the time I came into 36/4th Ave. and we reported that a old man was on the platform close to the express track on the ground? Now, I was on the local track, but TA police accused my train of hitting him & I was taken out of service. How could my train have hit him & catapulted the man to the express side. They needed a fall guy and it was me. I didn't get out of Command Center till after 1 AM & had to be in the clinic at CI at 8AM. Then, the Labor Relations guy said because he was going on vacation, I would have to stay on the platform until he got back! That left a sour taste in my mouth. And my hours & work location was changed, during the time which my wife sho doesn't drive had an important doctors appt. & I had to pay cab fare because I couldn't take her! That whole thing left a bitter taste in my mouth. I can go on, I guess it is sour grapes! I hope others have the courage to respond. I like operating trains. I just want to be able to have a decent operating train, with defects fixed, and not be the guy
Sorry, my keyboard decided to stop typing in mid sentence........I don't want to be the guy who is treated like just another pass number. My record is spotless, I have 201 sick days in the bank and when you consider 12 a year for 19 years, that is good. I have never had any cautions, reprimands ar suspensions either. I have a family & mortgage and I wouldn't do anything to jeopardise that by messing up on the job. I want us to be the best paid in the country because the lives of more people are in my hands than the engineer on LIRR or METRO-NORTH. We spend more time on the road than them in the course of a workday, and we never can go home early on our last day of the week or the day before a holiday. Sorry to vent Steve, but you asked! I hope the others who you challenged will answer the question too.
Bill, there's nothing wrong with venting and I thank you for your frankness. I see things largely from a Car Equipment perspective and find the level in dissatisfaction in RTO jobs and with CTAs in my division to be comparable. I'd rather not comment on the specifics of your dis-satisfaction but I want to make clear one issue that you raised (for the sake of everyone else).
The 'Random' in Random testing is just that (Not to be confused with Mandated EAP/UAP re-checks). The pass number/names of all covered employees (in safety sensative titles) are placed in a computer. The computer 'randomly' selects a pre-determined number of eligable names from each division at any time during the employee's tour. They then have 2 hours to report for testing. I was very suprised that in RTO that can mean taking a crew member off the train in mid-trip for testing. The selection is done purely electronically and without human input. I hope this explanation helps to mute the anger that the random test causes.
Yes Steve I am in R.T.O. I don't dislike my job entirely. What I dislike most is the lack of respect we get from management. For example, at the terminal where I work out of, we have six heaters that haven't been working since 12-28-98. Management was notified, but nothing has been done. Also in September 1998, the lights in the Mens room went out. There were temporary lights hanging in the bathroom; the kind you see at a construction site. The situation persisted for two months. What kind of treatment is that? Also, it would be nice to hear a Superintendent or a T.S.S say to you that you are doing a good job. I have yet to hear that from either party. My record is spotless. I am sure if you asked anyone in R.T.O if they think they get respect from management they would say no.
Well Steve let me tell you about myself. Im a thirteen year "veteran" started in Stations" in 1986, conductor and train operator in 1988. Im a union rep with a love for my job and its history. I know that in history the TWU fought HARD for the "40 hour week", something all of us enjoy. When I go to work I forget about section 2 of the TWU By-laws (work less for more pay) because I was once a passenger myself and it is my turn to get them home "safely". I hope I didn't imply I dislike my job, it sure is one of the most interesting of those in public service. I have no rule violations and one reinstruction since 1986 because I do take pride in my job. There is nothing wrong with the job, just the people who manage it.
The problem especially in RTO is that many runs contain excess cab time (6 1/2+) hrs, hostile confrontations between supv and hourlys, sick leave crackdowns (worse then those descibed in the lawsuit filed by N.Y.F.D. three months ago) frequent violations by management of a contract that would make Mike Quill turn over in his grave. While I realize that customers have a right to a safe, clean, and efficient transportation system, certain shop men such as those in the New Directions slate, have their rights as a union violated by unfair dismissals and retaliation by supv. for enforcing a safe and efficient
workplace, especially by whistleblowing to higher authorities.
With a STRONG union at contract time, such as in the case of the LIRR engineers a few years ago on their three day walkout, perhaps we can show the contract negotiators for the MTA that we are human too. My complaint is primarily against RTO labor relations where a button missing on the uniform will stand for the missing 10 days of the check. Sometimes I am convinced because of the 70% suspension pay clause, they have now a monitary goal to hand out discipline.
Safety is another worry of mine, as I hear everyday of poor braking trains and buses, poorly lit walkways and emergency exits with tripping hazards, rodents, uncollected trash and unsanitary crew quarters systemwide. I guess in short, Steve, if I worked for a mainline railroad with full support of the BLE Id be doing the same job I am now and liking it more but where I am now I wouldn't hate it any less; to me its now a job which pays my bills and only the job will change if we do.
Let me add to my previous post about this subject: In my terminal, we have a trickle of water out of the fountain. So low, we can't drink it. Supt. notified, phone calls made, no repairs. AVA's: recently, one of my coworkers was denied an AVA to go to a wedding. He requested it 30 days in advance. Why was he denied when there were 15 people extra board that day on his shift? A phone call by the dispatcher got him the day, but there was no reason to have to go through this. One day, several years ago, when I was off on Fri/Sat., my wife & I got a nice one nite package deal in Atlantic City. I requested an AVA on the Thursday before, as we would leave Thurs. AM & return Friday PM. I was denied the AVA. I only found out Tues, nite of the denial. I went to the Crew Office (Jay St. at the time) to show them my reservations. They didn't want to know about it. I told them I couldn't get a refund on such short notice, they still didn't care. I went to the union, and one of them went into the office with me. After arguing, they granted it to me. The man who I was arguing with said sarcastically: "You better make sure you show up on Sunday, we'll be looking for you." That experience left a bitter taste in both my mouth & my wifes'. You don't forget those things. I don't like this entrapment stuff when management deliberately delays us & our passengers by tinkering with the signals & causing them to go red to make sure we do not key by without permission. They always set this up just outside a station so if your radio is defective, they run down the platform toward you and tell you verbally to key by because they don't want to show a statistically late train! Speaking of statistically late, when will the Division of Car Equipment do what is necessary to make the cab doors more secure? Constantly daily, kids break in & yell on the PA's. We have a delay to lock the doors up, but since the delay is short, less than 5 minutes, no report is ever made & it is as if the vandalism never happened! And what about the latest random urinealysis I took (I got called for 3 randoms in slightly over 12 months). Before I went into the restroom, I had to take off my flashlight because they were afraid I had a vial of urine in place of the battery! I would have been happy to unscrew the flashlight to show them, but they wanted no part of that! Sorry to bore you guys, but Steve wanted to know why my attitude toward management is foul. Management treats us like children in grade school. These negative experiences you never forget. I actually enjoy my job, my record & outside responsibilities prove I will not do illegal things to jeopardise my job. Just let me get people from point A to point B and let me be.
> Sorry to bore you guys, but Steve wanted to know why my attitude
> toward management is foul. Management treats us like children in
> grade school.
I think the reason that people (riders) have little sympathy is that this is the same all over. I haven't ever worked at a place where the worker-bees are respected by management. Being a consultant is even worse. I think everyone could list examples like Bill's no matter where you work. (I don't work for the MTA.)
-dave
It all comes down to respect, and unfortunately, in this society there is too little of it. At the Seashore Trolley Museum, Todd Glickman, myself, and about 15 others carry the title of Inspector/Instructor. As such we not only operate our equipment, but also dispatch, train and observe many other volunteer operators. We are faced with a very difficult situation because we sometimes have to remove someone from service who is there because he enjoys doing the job for nothing! The ratio of I/I's to operators is much smaller than on a real transit system though, and we all know most of the people we are dealing with.
A system like NYC is huge and impersonal, but the bulk of the workers in the field are much like Seashore's volunteers - they enjoy what they are doing and they are there because they want to be there. Clashes between the rank and file and management usually end up being taken out on the riders, and unfortunately, they lose their respect for both in the process. The middle management people can make a difference - if they remember that they are in the middle, and need to be both the supervisors and supporters of the rank and file, as we are at the museum.
If you read my post regarding my recent visit to NYC, you saw that I commented mostly on the things being done by the rank & file, because without them, the system wouldn't have improved so much over the last 15 years. Steve appears to be a member of middle management who cares about his job and the people who work under him. If everyone in his position had similar attitudes, there would be fewer unhappy employees. Random testing is a necessary nusiance, and unfortunate result of our societal deterioration. Many of the other problems mentioned in this thread are unnecessary, and show a lack of support from those in supervisory positions. I suspect that many of the problems cited are not caused by MTA policy at the highest level, they are caused by people not caring a damn about those under them. This gives the rank and file good reason to escalate their demands every time the contract comes up for renewal.
I apologize to anyone in the class targetted by this rant who does not qualify; I like to look at the bright side, and NYCT does have a bright side, thousands of men and women who faithfully do their jobs under challenging conditions 24-7-52. The Redbirds and R-32s are fine examples of what these people have done, so are the clean cars and stations, announcements detailing delays, and smooth running trains. I often cite NYCT as a system that works - despite its problems. Thank you to everyone out there who makes that happen - at all levels!
BTW - I realize that not everyone at the low end is a saint, but again, in many cases respect from above will breed respect from below.
Gerry
Management's typical disregard for us who actually run the trains is typified by examples suchas work programs. 5 mind numbing trips on the "L" or 14 minutes at a terminal after close to 2 hours on the train. It's real easy for those heartless creeps who write those work programs to do this and then call it a "productivity gain" They're not the one who has to deal with it. When they get hungry or need to use a bath room then they just get out of the cushy chair transit provides them and go. But if I have to go , well it's an embarrasing call over the radio to notify control that I need to go. then I have to be trated like a child an scolded over the radio for all to hear and admonished at the terminal not to let it happen again
Or better yet! How about the train schedrules Which have no basis in reality, 15 minutes to go a distance which only takes 12. That way if your'e 3 minutes late your still on time , or in reality so a union rule book slowdown will not be effective. Managements pettyness has gotten really crazy in the last few weeks. They have been harrasing pople over the smallest of issues, a button, leaving a cab door open, not signing out (like the fact that train arrived wasn't enough) or like what happened to a motorman I know.
He took sick day and handed in a doctor's note as required, on the day he was sick he left the house for a few hours to visit the doctor and the pharmacy. He called the T A as required to notify them, but he's a HIP member and they are as bad as the DMV so he was out more than the alloted four hours, so he followed the policy and called the TA to update them, and was told that TA no longer accepts updates (somethig the union told him as well) Thinking nothingmore of it until today a month later when the TA docked his pay one day FOR NOT CALLING IN AND UPDATING! I love the subway BUT I HATE THE TRANSIT AUTHORITY!!!!!!!!!!
Management's typical disregard for us who actually run the trains is typified by examples suchas work programs. 5 mind numbing trips on the "L" or 14 minutes at a terminal after close to 2 hours on the train. It's real easy for those heartless creeps who write those work programs to do this and then call it a "productivity gain" They're not the one who has to deal with it. When they get hungry or need to use a bath room then they just get out of the cushy chair transit provides them and go. But if I have to go , well it's an embarrasing call over the radio to notify control that I need to go. then I have to be trated like a child an scolded over the radio for all to hear and admonished at the terminal not to let it happen again
Or better yet! How about the train schedrules Which have no basis in reality, 15 minutes to go a distance which only takes 12. That way if your'e 3 minutes late your still on time , or in reality so a union rule book slowdown will not be effective. Managements pettyness has gotten really crazy in the last few weeks. They have been harrasing pople over the smallest of issues, a button, leaving a cab door open, not signing out (like the fact that train arrived wasn't enough) or like what happened to a motorman I know.
He took sick day and handed in a doctor's note as required, on the day he was sick he left the house for a few hours to visit the doctor and the pharmacy. He called the T A as required to notify them, but he's a HIP member and they are as bad as the DMV so he was out more than the alloted four hours, so he followed the policy and called the TA to update them, and was told that TA no longer accepts updates (somethig the union told him as well) Thinking nothingmore of it until today a month later when the TA docked his pay one day FOR NOT CALLING IN AND UPDATING! I love the subway BUT I HATE THE TRANSIT AUTHORITY!!!!!!!!!!
Hi folks,
I'm in the process of stitching together the track maps of Coney Island Yard. Everything looks OK except for one aspect. If you know the track numbers in CIY these will make sense.
In the main shop building, my documents show tracks 46, 49, 50, 52 and what looks like 23 entering from the "right" side (south side) of the building, but I have no drawings showing whether they simply dead-end in the shop or continue out the back side.
Track 46, 49 & 50 seem to go through the truck shop and the machine shop. 52 appears to pass near the carpenter shop and I can't figure out what's with track 23.
I have the drawings up on my web site at
http://www.quuxuum.org/pjd/coney.html
Any comments, corrections or suggestions are appreciated. Please e-mail to pjd@ilap.com or reply here in SubTalk.
Thanks and Cheers,
Peter Dougherty
Publisher
Tracks of the New York City Subway book
Could someone tell me if or when the J/M/Z will stop running over the Willie B bridge? I heard that they are going to fix the bridge and service will be stopped for an extended period of time. Is this true?
They should be starting on this five-month project in May 1999. This means that the "J" terminates at Myrtle Avenue (along with the "Z"),
the "M" runs 24/7 shuttle service from Marcy Avenue. There will also be a shuttle from Broad Street to Essex Street on the other side. Passengers are being encouraged to change at Eastern Parkway for "L" or "A"/"C" service. "A" and "C" service will be beefed up, with weekend expresses running. There will also be a shuttle bus from Marcy Avenue to the Bedford Avenue/North 7th Street "L" station.
This is all subject to last-minute tweaking...
Wayne
The motormen & conductors of the BMT/IND will start picking new jobs coinciding with the WillyB closing in early February. When the official book of jobs comes out that we will pick from, I will report on it. Because the J/Z can't all be turned back at Bway/Myrtle middle, the rush hour Z will terminate at Eastern Pkwy. with the J making all stops from Eastern Parkway to Bway Myrtle, so I have heard.
The closing will be May 15. The outside window will be eight months. It is a very complicated job to remove the steel and replace it on the bridge with traffic on the roadways.
You all are getting this from the inside? I find it strange that they would sent the M to Marcy and cut the J back at Myrtle. And they're still going to have Z skip-stop on the Jamaica line when people will probably take the E or A instead?
You bet. The work is scheduled to occur next year, beginning in the spring. And since you don't live in the suburbs, they don't have to do anything for you, you're just stuck. At least I have some confidence that when the work is done the Willie B can be relied upon at least for the intermediate term. No such confidence in the Manhattan Bridge.
Actually service will be sespended in the early May for 6-9 months. As for south B;klyn "M" sevice int will still operate in a reduced fastion Bay Parkway to Chambers St on a 10 Min Headway during rush hours. The "J" will operate a shuttle in Mamhattan between Broad and Essex Sts Weekdays 6am - 9pm. In conjuction will this closure the C will recieve weekend service to b'klyn Starting in may. Also the Spring suface Pick ( Brooklyn Division ) will also going into effect at the same time as the bridegs closes. It will include inhanced B-39 Williamsburg Bridge service And a Shuttle connecting Bridge Plaza with the "L" train.
The C was going to be extended into Brooklyn on weekends regardless because of the increase in ridership along Fulton st.
If travel on Fulton St is increasing, why not make the E an express and send it to Brooklyn as the Fulton Local? That would eliminate the switch at Canal. The only thing substituting the C for the E gets you is less cars serving Brooklyn, but if the demand justifies it, you'd be better off letting the express be express.
>>If travel on Fulton St is increasing, why not make the E an express and send it to Brooklyn as the Fulton Local? That would eliminate the switch at Canal.
Would make 50th Street tricky to represent on the map--one express train stops there, the other doesn't. Otherwise, no serious objections here (except that I go from Lexington to 23rd pretty often); but wouldn't extending the E route mean that even more trains wold have to be assigned to it to maintain frequency on Queens Boulevard? I'm sure that route is still a higher priority than the Fulton Local.
Depends - how many people are willing to take the Fulton Local into Manhattan? And if you keep the frequency the same as it is now during rush hours how bad will the congestion be between Hoyt and Chambers, where all traffic will be funneled into 2 tracks?
It occurred to me recently. nycsubway.org hosts pictures and maps and such of the New York City subway system. I've looked and been unable to find a similar site for the Long Island Railroad. Does anyone actually have a collection of old pictures of Long Island Railroad stations and trains and such? If not, or if people have them but have no time to turn them into a site, it might be an effort worth putting in.
Try this unofficial website -
http://www.pipeline.com/~robertwa/lirr.html
Hey what's the deal,
Every morning and every evening, I have to walk through a flock of smokers just to get to the turnstyle. Typical Smoker Mentality says that smoking is okay on TA property so long as you haven't entered the system, but what does TA policy say about it??? Enforcement???
Any timetables about banning smoking system wide, including bus shelters. Where can I sign.
As far as I know, smoking is banned everywhere on subway property. That would include stairways and other areas outside the fare-piad zone. Whether the law is enforced with any degree of diligence is another matter.
What's the deal with subway property anyway?
How many feet from the first step to the subway entrance?
If someone is standing outside the station, but leaning on the kiosk can they get a ticket for smoking??? If an army of smokers created a smoke screen to block a subway entrance, how many feet from the entrance would they have to stand to do it legally?
What is the TA property issue with regards to bus shelters???
Does the TA have control over that property? Can they ticket people for smoking in a bus shelter? Inside? Outside? How many feet from the bus shelter? If there is no bus shelter, can they ticket smokers for standing in or near a bus stop??? (leaning against the bus stop sign) how many feet from the curb does the TA claim for Bus Stop use. Do TA restrictions; Spitting, Radio Playing ect. Apply in this space?
Who paints the Yellow Line? The TA or the DOT?
A bus shelter is a sidewalk, owned by the city. DOT paints the line and erects the no smoking sign, at the request of the TA. DOT allows a private contractor (TDI) to erect bus shelthers -- they do, to get revenues from the ads.
Cigarette smoke kills me, but lets not go do far here. No smoking on the sidewalk?
No smoking in public!
To me it is simple. Cigarette smoke is a dog and their dog is in my yard. I want that dog on a leash.
I don't think that cigarettes should be banned, I don't think that they should be excessivly taxed and I don't think that anyone over the age of 18 should be denied the right to purchase ciagarettes or to smoke.
Just not in public.
In your own yard or your own house you can take your dog off its leash, but not on the streets or the subways, elevators or bars, resturants or parks or beaches or plazas or other public places.
If the city wants to set up a special dog run for smokers in the park or the beach or the plaza, I'm all for it. But I want it separate and enclosed.
You come off sounding like a nazi. What next, ban people chewing gum in public? After that, is it people with bad breath? And then what? Women? Children? Protestants? This is way too slippery a slope to even attempt discussing here.
-Hank
Suppose that dogs could roam free in public, and then someone suggested that there should be a new law requiring dogs always be kept on a lead. Would that person be accused of being a Nazi? Like it or not, the slippery slope is already occupied.
Smoking has been banned in transit systems for a long time, and for good reasons. Here in Boston I am faced daily with people who feel that it is acceptable to smoke on the platform, but (thankfully) extinguish their cigarettes to get on the train. The perception that the platform is "open air" is unfortunate, especially to nonsmokers who avoid secondhand smoke for obvious health reasons. I should be able to walk to the train station and come to work every day without having to breathe someone else's smoke. The question of smoking in bus shelters is valid. Is a bus shelter so much different from a train station? I do not propose prohibiting smoking on sidewalks or parks, because I can steer clear of smokers if I so choose. If, however, I'm a captive in a bus shelter on a rainy day, I'd like to be able to breathe without aggravating my allergies.
Smoking was banned on the London Underground (indeed, all UK underground stations I believe) for an even better reason; the King's Cross fire. I don't have the death toll to hand, but there was carnage.
Legally, in the City of New York, a painted curb has no signifigance or legality. Only signs and fire hydrants (15' from them, thank you) need be obeyed. Bus Stops are 100'. And with the wonderful new law that was passed several years ago, a single sign is legal for an entire block, unless it has a regulated distance (IE, bus stop)
-Hank
Sorry, that is definitely excessive (banning smoking on public sidewalks). Cigarette smoke dissipates rapidly. Stay a few feet away from the smoker and you will not notice the smoke.
On the other hand, if smokers deliberately surround a non-smoker and blow smoke in his face, that could be considered a form of assault.
And what of the smokers who block doorways and subway entrances and monopolize park benches and bus shelters?
One night at about 12:30 am me and a few other people boarded an empty uptown #2 in the last car (so when we get off were at the 93st exit at the 96th street stop.) At 72nd street two people boarded the car in which we were riding, opened the window and started smoking, blowing the smoke out of the window. We werent there for to long and being that we were in the back of the car (smokers were at the front) we didnt smell the smoke. We got off at our stop, and as far as we know, the train left and they continued smoking. This was a first for me.
Do transit car have smoke detectors?
Thanx
Thomas
I use to live on the Upper West Side and the last car of the 1,2,3 trains is known, notoriously, to West Siders, as the smoking car. Those of us who use the 93rd Street exit are quiet use to the smoking car culture that has existed for many years.
I don't know about smoke detectors, but I was riding on a mid-day F (14 to Delancey). One of the passengers was screaming at the top of her lungs at, well, nobody in particular (despite this, some poor guy was responding quite sheepishly -- but she was ignoring him). All the passengers were enjoying this until she lit a cigarette and the car began to fill with smoke -- remember, this is an R-44 (R-46?), so we couldn't escape. I didn't stay on much past this, but I did mention it to the conductor on my way out.
About 14 or 15 years ago (mid 1980's), I was riding on a SEPTA bus,
and there were 2 signs posted...one in the front of the bus, and one
in the rear, that read "No Smoking, violations will result in $300
fine or 10 days imprisonment". Several girls in their late teens
boarded the bus, and went to the rear, near where I was sitting, and
one of them right away lit up a cigarette. I immediately called her
attention to the No Smoking sign, and she responded sarcastically by
saying "I can't read". I've never smoked, and I'm VERY anti-smoking.
I just can't understand why some people who smoke can't wait until
they reach their destination to light up, instead of lighting up on
the bus or train, risking getting into trouble, as well as making it
uncomfortable for the other passengers.
This story reminds me of something I saw last summer while taking the bus up to Woodstock. A woman and her small child,(about 6) were riding on the back of the bus. At one of the scheduled stops,(not theirs) the woman got off to smoke a cigarette and left her child, in spite of his pleading, on the bus. "I'm just going to smoke a cigarette" She complained to the boy. The boy was never in any danger, but the message was clear that her 6 year old boy was the second most important thing in her life.
It just goes to show how addicting those cancer sticks can be. I'm just thankful my father quit smoking when he did, in June of 1962. He probably wouldn't still be around today, enjoying his retirement, had he not done so.
Sorry if I stepped on the soap box.
[I just can't understand why some people who smoke can't wait until
they reach their destination to light up, instead of lighting up on
the bus or train, risking getting into trouble, as well as making it
uncomfortable for the other passengers.]
It's sort of an anti-social act of defiance. By smoking on the train or bus, they show that they consider themselves too superior to be bound by petty rules.
"I just can't understand why some people who smoke can't wait until
they reach their destination to light up, instead of lighting up on
the bus or train, risking getting into trouble, as well as making it
uncomfortable for the other passengers."
'It's sort of an anti-social act of defiance. By smoking on the train or bus, they show that they consider themselves too superior to be bound by petty rules.'
Actually, I think it's more proof (as if more proof is needed) that smoking is addictive. The smokers **need** the fix of their drug (nicotine), and a half-hour or 45 minutes on a train is just too long to go without a fix. And we've all heard stories about what lengths addicts will go to to get their fix -- breaking an ordinance and getting fined is small potatoes by comparison.
If a TA rider were to sue over being forced to breathe second-hand smoke while waiting for a bus, would they sue the city or the TA?
they'd sue no one, because smoking isn't banned in open, public areas by any sort of law. If the bus stop is on private property (like the B42 waiting area at Rockaway Parkway) it is a summonsable offense. But the sidewalk is first a sidewalk, and then a bus stop. What are you going to do, sue the next person who crosses your path with a cigarette?
Don't mark me as a smoker, either. I can't stand it. My dad has smoked 2 packs a day for 45 years, and he's got emphysema now. He's also up to 3 packs a day. My father the moron. (and if you know him, you can tell him I said that.)
-Hank
I can't help but feel that the city is responsible for providing a clean, safe and designated area for persons to wait for public transportation. On the sidewalk you might be free to avoid smokers, but providing a waiting area for smokers, and not one for non smokers seems discriminatory.
Our society has made two big mistakes: taking everything that the majority consider wrong and making illegal, and taking everything that isn't illegal (or everything that can't be proved beyond a reasonable doubt) and pretending it is not wrong.
It a good society, if you were bothered by smoke you would ask someone to do you a favor and stop, and the person would either stop or suffer the indignity of being considered an asshole. But people are afraid to ask, and unafraid of being considered an asshole. Hence the tendency to regulate everything through law.
Before banning smoking at bus stops, I have my own list of things to make illegal. Dogs in public (even if they pick it up, some remains). Bikes in Prospect Park (I'm more afraid of my kid being run over by a bike than by a car). Getting into the express checkout at the supermarket with more than 15 items, then arguing about the price. Double parking. Getting into the subway doors and then just stopping. Riding down the left hand lane next to a backed-up exit, and then cutting in. Etc. etc. Smoking at a bus stop is no worse than these.
Larry, What are we to do? Smokers are assholes. The simple fact that we have to have laws banning smoking in the subway or in elivators, ect. is testimony to their assholeia. And, as we have discussed above, they still smoke on the subway in spite of the law!!!
I realize that my approach may seem harsh to some people, but look what we're dealing with. I ask people not to smoke every chance I get. But I resent the burden of having to ask, especially when people should know better, or when the law is clear. I am not saying that smoking or tobacco shold be banned, what then, gives smokers the right to want to ban smoke-free environments?
I don't care about cancer, I am fighting for the right to be just as big an asshole as smokers have always been. Perhapse that's the only way for them to see how they behave. In effect my being an asshole about the smoking issue, IS my asking someone not to smoke in the only language they understand.
Addicts are addicts, regardless if the addicting substance is legal or not. Science has proved that nicotine is as addictive as opiates, but tobacco is a legal product. An addict will do ANYTHING to obtain the "hit". Thus, the woman who "just going to have a cigarette" was ignoring her child. Smokers on transit are just feeding their addiction. If somebody was smoking crack in public, the law would (hopefully) do what's right.
We have no ashtrays in our house (nobody in our family smokes), so my daughter's boyfriend goes outside every 25 minutes or so to get his nicotine "hit".
Tobacco was reviled in the 1600's as "that vile and filthy habit". We're 300 years from then and its still a vile and filthy habit. I've buried too many people who kicked off due to tobacco. My father, stepfather, and several friends.
We rag all the smokers we know personally, not to irritate them, but to (hopefully) get them to quit, or at least cut down. A couple have.
Which is a more reasonable restriction on individual rights for the common good? Prohibiting smoking in outdoor bus stops, and diverting the resourced needed for enforcement? Or prohibiting offensive body odors (ie. drug addicts living on the street and not bathing, or massive does of perfume) in enclosed subway cars? I vote for the latter, and not just because I ride the subway frequently and the bus infrequently.
Going back to a legal point, odiferous people have not been shown to necessearily cause a health risk, while smoking has been shown indisputably to cause a health risk. Your freedom argument is so broad, it seems, it might also apply to asbestos or anthrax. What's more many communities have laws against obtrusive billboards and other eyesores all be it they are not a direct health risk. The library has the right to enforce silence where sound is not necessarily a risk. Even the subway doesn't allow you to play your radio. Why is there not a big deal about this issue? Radios don't cause cancer. To me its not an issue of cancer, its an issue of courtesy. My being an asshole about this subject is my opportunity to show smokers the same courtesy they show to non smokers. After all its a free country and I have the right to be an asshole too. And what's more what choice do I have? Smokers insist on ruling not only their own behavior, but the behavior of non smokers as well. Well I demand equal time as the boss of common courtesy. I don't wish to be right, I wish to be fair!
> Addicts are addicts, regardless if the addicting substance is legal
> or not. Science has proved that nicotine is as addictive as opiates, > but tobacco is a legal product. An addict will do ANYTHING to obtain > the "hit".
Really? How many smokers commit robberies in order to get their nicotine fix? Millions of packs of cigarettes are sold daily in this country, very few are stolen. Perhaps most smokers will not "do ANYTHING to obtain the 'hit'" afterall, addicted or not.
The nicotine addict (smoker) will do almost anything to get their hit.
Read the posts in this thread. From the jerks who insist on smoking on transit to the woman who ignored the plaintif cries of her child to my daughter's boyfriend, they are all getting their "hit".
Tobacco is legal, that's why tobacco products aren't usually stolen.
I am trying to find out what the NY City subway fare rates would have been from 1929 to 1944. If you can help, please email to spiderhill@usa.net. Thank you!
Fare was 5 cents from Oct. 27, 1904 until July 1, 1948.
Andy, Wasn't there a difference in this, i.e. initially you bought a ticket for .05, later they installed turnstiles that took .05, then they went to a token when the fare was more than a single coin ????
Mr t__:^)
That's about right. When the IRT opened in 1904, passengers bought pasteboard tickets from what was then called a change booth, and deposited them in a large wooden box which was manned by an attendant. The attendant operated a lever which chopped the tickets up into useless fragments; hence the term "ticket chopper". Turnstiles came later and rendered the ticket choppers obsolete, although they were still used at Yankee Stadium as late as 1948.
The IND lines had turnstiles right from the start; up until not too long ago, some stations still had the original wooden turnstiles like the ones at the museum. They were originally marked "Deposit coins here". While the fare was still a nickel, that's what they accepted; when it went up to a dime, they were modified to accept dimes. My parents still remember the 10-cent fare and dropping dimes in the turnstiles.
Tokens came into use when the fare went up to 15 cents in 1953. A problem surfaced when it was discovered that slugs (even play money!) could activate the turnstiles. This may be the reason for the cutout Y which was subsequently adopted.
Actually, the cutout Y was a feature of NYCTA tokens from their very beginning in 1953.
Interestingly the AVA (Am. Vecturist Assoc.) catalog lists TWO tokens, both the same size as being issued 1953 ... the solid version is listed first, and the "Y" cutout second. The third issue (1966) was about the size of the Bulls Eye & had a "Y" cutout, the fouth (1970) went back to the solid design.
Question: Anyone know what the "Aqueduct Special" looked like, I suspect they used the Express Bus token for this purpose.
Mr t__:^)
I think the same dime-sized token was used up until the fare went from 20 to 30 cents in 1970, at which time the quarter-sized token was introduced. It wasn't until 1980, when the fare went from 50 to 60 cents that the solid token without the Y cutout went into use. While its diameter stayed the same, it was also thinner than the previous token. I still remember using the dime-sized tokens when the fare was 20 cents in the late 60s.
I wear my token cuff links when I'm playing in a concert, and my token tie clip if I happen to be wearing my straphanger or subway map neckties.
Of course a nickel in 1904 was worth 13 cents in 1948 dollars -- the fare was effectively cut by nearly two-thirds. The result -- the save as the "save the fare" political "heroics" of the 1960s -- the collapse of the subway. There is only one way to get something for nothing. To leave those who inherit the future with nothing.
P.S. a nickel in 1904 is 92 cents today, adjusted for inflation. And that 92 cents paid for it all, including profit, although the city ended up paying most of the capital costs in the end. But in transit, like in other fields, the pay of the average worker has increased much faster than inflation. In transit, unlike other fields, productivity has not increased enough to make up the difference. Hence OPTO, automated signals, etc.
First sorry to the rest of you for this post ....
I've got your e-mail but having trouble with my reply getting rejected
by the Mail Demon :-( I tryed early this AM thinking it was the volumn of traffic later in the day, but it failed again. I thought it was the connection from us to edu, but doesn't account for AOL failure.
Josh I copied Accounbt@AOL
Jack I copied Postmaster@UPenn
Just a quick post to tell all you track watchers that the Docklands Light Railway in London United Kingdom will as from the last train on
8th January 1999
cease to serve Mudchute and Island Garden station, a new terminus at Crossharbour(for London Arena) station will be the END of the Island Garden Branch.
This is in preperation for the extension of the D.L.R. under the River Thames and towards Lewisham.
Rob :^)
Metrocard Vending Machines: What does the timeline look like for installing them? When will they start - when will they finish? I know the plan is to phase out tokens, but do they also plan to phase out booth sales once Metrocard vending machines are system-wide and tokens are no longer sold?
Driverless Trains: What's the scoop? I read on here a while ago that this was where the MTA was heading. Is this just a rumor? Are the R142 and R143 being built with any kind of ATC system in mind?
Just curious - thanks in advance for any info!
I was wondering...is the MTA making a commitment to make sure that the Year 2000 computer problem doesn't effect trains and buses? If so, what are they doing to solve it, and where can I read more about it? Times Square 2000 is going to be chaotic enough;just think what will happen if the trains stop running!-Nick
Well, I doubt it will affect the Metrocard system, being as I have a card that expires 2/29/00!
-Hank
The fare system has been based on a four digit year from day one. For those of us who have to enter 1999 all the time it's a pain !
Mr t__:^)
For Buses Scheduling, Payroll and timecard are still done on old early 80's Wang computer. If you walk into any bus depoy crew room in NYC you will be greeded by this Wang and look into the office they are litter all over the place. Let's see how the pick 2000 work. Maybe we all be doing our timepoint the old timers way. pen and paper. Feel sorry for the guys on the extra list. That a new report they have to time out. lets not talk out payroll.
I'm sure the MTA's old computers will go down. But this won't affect subways and buses, it will affect payroll, timecards, sick leave, and purchasing. Do the still use the old Materials Managment System? It was not even real time -- you found out what you had left at the end of the week. And, commodity management has a Wang too. Maybe they had better buy some extra parts and supplies this year, while they have a surplus, in case it takes two months to get the thing up and running again.
I wonder if the MTA bought any Betmaxes.
I'm sure the MTA is pleased that subway fares will work, and maybe the busses fare problems will be fixed too. But what about the MTA's computer equipment;particularly the equipment used to track where all the subways are, as well as the signal system?-Nick
Having worked on or for every rail carrier in the metro area except PATH, I can say that the TA treats their people with the least respect and the most contempt. I was a conductor with freight trains, and I was trully in charge of my train. Respected for my abilities and treated as an expert in my field. The engineer dared not move MY train without consulting me first.
Here I'm just a door man. Supervision treats me as if I don't know what I'm doing (like I'd really gotten that much training) My Motorman acts as if I'm irrelevant, refusing to even notify me over matters affecting the routing of MY train, or worse yet many of them ignore us as if we were just another part of the train. No wonder management holds us in such low regard, ie; OPTO.
Last week my train needed to be moved with other than head end operation, something I am very familiar with, and probably have more experience with than most work train motormen. The Train Service Supervisor who showed up made a mess of things, I had to stop the fool from cutting out the brakes on half the cars( it was a motor problem to begin with) Then the megolomaniac refused to let me do my job and let me flag MY train. He insisted on doing it! What ? Are we conductors, or DOORMEN?
On my train I talk on the radio unless the motorman sees a dark signal or some thing. When it breaks down, I'll fix it. When a dispatcher asks why we were late, I answer. And most of all, we dont move unless I say so. Every motorman I work with knows this. Except the moron I worked with to night, I cleared the train of passengers to return to the yard, and he took off as soon as the home signal cleared, not knowing weather or not I was aboard, and after a long buzzer signal. I never told him to go. Of course I read him the riot act, but like 99% of the motor men out there he thinks because he drives the damn train that makes him the boss. Just like management wants.
I have a little story that may bring a smile to your lips ...
I was invited to a meeting a South Ferry (DOT bldg) Friday 12/18. The meeting was at 12 noon ... yuck, it was also the day of our Christmas Party ... double yuck. The consequences of cancelling the meeting weren't worth my inconvience, so I went.
I got a lift from one of our dispatchers to the Whitestone Expressway where just as we arrived a MCI coach was aproaching. The door opened & the driver said "good morning Thurston" to which I responded "good morning Renolds". It was a cool but sunny day so the trip up the LIE overpass afforded a spended view of the NYC skyline as we neared the tunnel. This Express terminates at 34th & 6th where there's a McDs just a half block from the stop. After a quick bite I boarded the 6th Ave IND for my trip downtown. Now some would say "why didn't you walk one block over to 7th Ave & take the 1/9" ... nah that wouldn't be any fun. The first train in was a F local, I let it leave without me. The next was a B express which I took one station, then decided to wait for one more express. As luck would have it a Q Slant 40 arrived. I don't think I've had the pleasure before, so I rode it for one station (that counts ?), then got off to switch to the IRT Lex. The Lex ride was fine until I got off one station too early, by mistake. There were a couple of guys taking a survey in the station & since the platform was empty they approached me. Things went OK until they asked how many times I used the station ... I replyed zero ... the guy objected, I said, with a smile, zero is a number, he smilled back & wrote down zero. As part of the survey they ask for your first name, since mine is a bit unique there may be someone at the TA who is cursing under his/her breath at that darn Thurston not being content to cause trouble in AFC, he has to try a screw up their surveys too :-)
I arrived a the meeting just 15 minutes late and appologized for my tardyness due to the fact that I was delayed waiting for a Slant 40 .. I got a couple of strange looks. At the end of the meeting we were talking about e-mail use (some there have just gotten access), I made the statement that it's a valuable tool and I have leared things on the net from friends all around the World, the comment was made that "we know" :-)
After the meeting I entered the South Ferry station and noticed the wheel water sprayers that has been talked about here. It was a trip back memory lane for me (I use to take the 1/9 from 116th to 34th). I boarded a R62 and rode it to Chambers, then ran across the platform & looked down the track for an express. The R62 had holding lights, so I kept one eye on the light & the other on the express track. They kept the R62 until a Redbird came along. The engineer had to keep holding the her back because she wanted to fly.
At Penn I was able to catch one of the last Babylon line off-peeks. The ride there was uneventful until we left Kew Gardens ... someone was buzzing the engineer. After some trouble with the intercom it was determined that we had a sick passenger. The engineer called ahead to Jamaica. The passenger was bleeding so they needed to wait for EMS to take him off. Meanwhile the engineer was informed that a empty Westbound train was being turned over to him so that the Eastbound trip could be completed. As we departed the initial train the customers were grumbling (all they knew was that we had a sick passenger). They grumbled some more when they realized that the new train was a couple cars shorter. As I left the train at my station I overheard an announcement that my train was 15 minutes late.
I arrived at home only about 10 minutes earlier than normal ... some times things look a little glum, but they turn out alright in the end.
Mr t__:^)
I've heard conflicting stories about how many new cars are on order. Are enough A division cars on order to replace all the Redbirds? How many IND/BMT cars are on order after the recent "service improvement" spending? Are the deals done? And when will they arrive?
There are 680 IRT R-142's on firm order from Kawasaki as well as 400 R-142A's from Bombardier. There is an option for an additional 230 R-142 as well as an additional 150 R-142A.
There is an order, recently placed, with Kawasaki for 100 R-143 B-Division cars, with an option for 112 more.
Expect to see the first R142s arriving in 2000, so I hear. Some reports have the test trains arriving as early as this spring.
Unit #s: R142: 6301-6980 (option: 6981-7210)
R142A:7211-7610 (option: 7611-7760).
None available as of yet for R143: I would bet they start in the 8000s range (like the R27-30s).
Wayne
That sounds like almost 1500 A division cars, including the options. I guess that with 1,150 A division cars from the 1980s, that will just about replace the fleet.
From 100 to 212 B division cars ain't much. How large are they -- is 100 cars 10, 11 (one spare), or 12 trains (four spare) trains? It appears that the stainless steel cars are expected to last forever.
The R143s will mark a return in size to that of the BMT standards - 67 feet in length. I believe they are heading for former B-Type territory: the Eastern Division, namely the L, squeezing out the Slant R40s (they're bound for the N, so I'm told) and some of the R40Ms and R42s. Since Canarsie Line stations measure approximately 520 to 536 feet in length, I would think they would operate in four-car sets, two to a full consist. (67x8=536). Since they're thinking of "computerizing" the Canarsie Line sometime down the road, perhaps this new equipment will be compatible with that concept.
Wayne
[The R143s will mark a return in size to that of the BMT standards - 67 feet in length. I believe they are heading for former B-Type territory: the Eastern Division, namely the L, squeezing out the Slant R40s (they're bound for the N, so I'm told) and some of the R40Ms and R42s. Since Canarsie Line stations measure approximately 520 to 536 feet in length, I would think they would operate in four-car sets, two to a full consist. (67x8=536). Since they're thinking of "computerizing" the Canarsie Line sometime down the road, perhaps this new equipment will be compatible with that concept.]
Not so. Some time ago, the concept was changed. Now the cars will be 60-footers arranged in 4-car sets.
David
This is the first I've heard of this. Veddy interesting, indeed.
4 car sets with 2 blind motors in between 2 cab motors?
--Mark
That's what it sounds like - short R46's. I was surprised to hear of the change of plans regarding the car length - although I will reiterate that I have heard both 60 and 67 feet mentioned as the car length. I will wait and see when the test train arrives just how long they will be - let's just say "60-something" feet long.
Wayne
I have been hearing about the option to buy additional cars from the R-142/R-143 orders. My question is do they normally buy these optional orders or is it anyones guess what the TA will do?
This Sunday 1/3/1999 I was at brooklyn Bridge on the Lex- A downtown 6 pulled in and discharged as normal-only some passengers did not get off. From uptown side I alerted conductor who promptly cleared the train (and thanked me.)
Monday night and Newark Penn, the NJT train pulled in and upon boarding I noticed that it my car, the doors were open on both sides of the car (meaning someone could have walked from the train and fallen to the tracks.) I called for a crew member- two came running and upon my informing of the problem, the head condcutor corrected the problem and thanked me for the safety issue.
In class we were told of Transit's "eyes and Ears Network" where we are the eyes and ears of Transit. I take it personally and considerr msyelf "on duty" anytime I am on any train (for any transit system) and as such provide assistance as required should the need arise.In a major emergency if I were on the scene , in uniform or in civilian clothes. I would render assistance. I carry my credentials anytime I use any carrier (Even if I am on a pleasure trip and paying my own fare.)I provide travel assistance to other passengers as needed.
A true transit worker should do that- we provide a public service and as such I am a public servant, a willing servant.
Nice to see I'm not the only one who feels that way, I've got at least a dozen stories like yours. My personal favorite is the time I helped evacuate a stalled R in the Montague St. tube on the way home from a college class. Just happened to have my work bag with me ( vest, flashlight, keys, radio,etc.) Do you think I ever got recognition for that? NO! Well that's the TA for ya.
SubwayBuff-
As I've said before, you represent the finest in our transit employees. To where can one write to the TA to commend an employee?
I will make two short comments:
1. I'm glad that when you alert staff or offer help that you aren't given a negitive responce instread of thanks & prase.
2. I too have the same attitude, but restrict my interest in helping to my company mainly because a lot of TA staff have no idea who Queens Surface is & therefore might not appreciate my input. Since I use to hand out the checks as one of my many hats in this small company I know a lot of the drivers by name. I've always gotten at least a smile and mostly a thank you when I offered help. One that comes to mind was a blocked in bus on College Point Blvd. The street are verry narrow there & some dummy was doubled parked. Anyhow, I acted more like a traffic cop then anything else to untangle the grid-lock. Cliff thanked me & I proceeded to complete my lunch time errand.
Mr t__:^)
I ´ll visit New York on february 7 th., during three days (until february 10 th. in the morning). I 'stay at SALISBURY HOTEL (57 th. street, between 6th. and 7 th. street).. I 'll want to go by subway to South Ferry and to Arthur Ashe Tennis Stadium at Flushing Meadow-Corona Park.
I saw the subway maps in Internet, but I have doubts with the combinations (to go to South Ferry, I must take 1or 9 from 14 th. street in a combination with L, What line can I take to 14 street, from Salisbury? How can I combinate?.
Second, From Salisbury Hotel, How can I go to Tennis Stadium?.
Any information you can offer me, will be very, very grateful.
For South Ferry, walk a block and a half west to 8th Avenue and take the 1 or 9 south to the last stop, South Ferry.
Or just walk a half block west to 7th Avenue and take the N or R to Whitehall Street. In either case, you shouldn't need to change trains at 14th Street.
I'm not sure exactly where the stadium is, but if you call I'm sure they'll be able to tell you what the nearest subway station is and how to get there from the station.
The station will probably be on the 7 line. To get to the 7, again walk to 7th Avenue and take a Queens-bound N three stops to Queensboro Plaza. You'll be able to pick up the 7 directly across the platform.
(In the afternoon, some 7 trains run express in Queens -- the signs on the trains will show a 7 in a diamond rather than a circle. When you call the stadium, you should ask if the express stops there -- if not, wait for the local or get on the express but know where you'll have to get off and change to the local.)
To get to the tennis stadium, take the 7 to Willets Point. The tennis stadium is on the other side of Shea Stadium, across the Long Island Rail Road tracks.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH, DAVID'S (SHANSKE AND GREENBERGER). YOURS ARE VERY, VERY AFABLES. ONLY QUESTION MORE: HOW MANY BLOCKS THERE IS FROM TENNIS STADIUM TO WILLETS POINT?. FOREST HILLS IS NEAR?.
ANY INFORMATION ON FILES ABOUT NY, YOU WOULD SEND ME BY E-MAIL.
REPEAT, AND I'M VERY SURE: YOURS, THE AMERICANS, ARE THE MOST ORGANIZED COUNTRY OF THE EARTH.
It is about 700 meters from the station to the Tennis stadium, via a ramp that leads directly from the subway station. As for Forest Hills, it is about three miles as the crow flies, but to get there by the Subway, get off the #7 at 74th Street-Broadway, and go downstairs via the escalator link and take the "E" or "F" train one stop to 71st Avenue-Continental station. Take the Queens bound "E" or "F" train. Warning: the #7 express does NOT stop at the 74th Street-Broadway station; you must take the #7 local.
Wayne
PS you can leave your caps lock off.
Arthur Ashe Stadium is about a 5 minute walk from the Shea Stadium / Willets Point subway stop. Forest Hills is not close enough to walk to. To get to Forest Hills from Willets Point, take the 7 train back toward Manhattan. Get off at 74th Street and transfer to the E or F train going toward Jamaica. (Go down the escalator at the front of the 7 platform for this transfer.) Get off the E or F at 71st/Continental (the first stop). You will need to walk about 2-3 blocks south to reach the old Forest Hills tennis stadium (there will be many people on the street in this area to direct you).
From Forest Hills, you can take the R train back to 57th and 7th for your hotel. The R leaves from the same station as the E and F.
Forrest Hills ... another option would be to take the LIRR from Penn at 34th. Not every train stops there, so make sure you pick the right one, ALSO you'll need to be in the front of the train because the platform is short. The LIRR trip will cost more then 1.50, but you'll get a nice view of NYC skyline & NJT/Amtrak "Sunnyside" yard if that's of interest to you (as a bonus, the walk to the stadium is shorter).
P.S. the #7 line comming back to Manhattan also is elevated for a nice view of the city.
Mr t__:^)
At 10:44 AM this morning at 86th St./Lexington Ave., I boarded a Dyre Ave.-bound #5 train with marker lights set to green/red. It is the first time in a number of years I have seen marker lights set to anything but red/red. Are they using them again for some special purpose? Or was this basically a mistake?
I've also seen this sort of thing a few time recently, too.
Other than green/red on the front of the #5, I've also seen red/amber on the front of a #7 (express) and red/white on the last car of a #5 (this past Sunday).
Don't know the reason.
Maybe a few nostalgic motermen out there?
Does anyone know about the new Orion order for the DOT. I know the buses are supposed to be placed on the express routes. How many were ordered, and what will be the fate of the MCI's and the RTS's in local service??
In addition, what will happen to the white Orions currently used by Green line. The more time they are spent there, the more damage and vandalism will occur to them.
Green is keeping the white ones, they are just not painting them. Queens Surface has painted Diesels , painted CNG and now white CNG Orions.
Happy New Year, everyone! If I don't get held up again Iwill be going to NYC on my birthday next month. Anybody got anything new to see? And incidentally, what kind of cars are they using on the 63rd St. shuttle?
R-32s.
I don't know when you were here last, so it would be difficult to tell you what is new.
Oh no! Oh yes! OI VAY!! Here are a few more tantalizing questions on New York subway rolling stock down through the years. There won't be as many this time. Enjoy!
1. On a 3-car set of BMT standards marked as such, what did the letters BX stand for?
2. On the BMT standards, the conductor's door controls were in the wide post between the center doors. How many buttons did each console have altogether?
3. It is widely known that the R-1/9s could not operate in multiple unit with any other equipment. However, all 1703 of them could, and did, operate with each other. The Lo-V fleet included two groups of cars which could not operate in m. u. with so-called standard Lo-Vs. Name these two groups of cars.
4. Even today, there are several fleets of cars which are totally incompatible with any other equipment. Name one of these fleets.
5. At one time, the R-10s and R-16s provided service on two different routes at the same time. Name these two routes.
6. Name the two routes which the R-38s and slant R-40s were initially assigned to.
7. When originally delivered, the R-32s were all assigned to the BMT Southern Division. On which route were the first units placed in service?
8. As most of us know, the BMT standards had no end signs to identify a train's route or destination, so passengers had to rely on the marker lights if they wanted to know which route a particular train was operating on as it pulled into a station. Which route was such a train operating on if its marker lights were set to red and white?
9. Name the four contract numbers of cars which were joined into married pairs by couplers at the blind ends when originally delivered.
10. Which cars made their final revenue run on March 31, 1977?
3. The low-V standards could not operate with the low-v Steinway motors.
4. The R44 and R46 are incompatible with any other fleet in the system, including each other.
"Not as many questions", you say?? :)
I'll try some:
> 1. On a 3-car set of BMT standards marked as such, what did the
> letters BX stand for?
Somethng about the 3 car set being semi-permanently coupled but it actually stood for something?
> 2. On the BMT standards, the conductor's door controls were in the
> wide post between the center doors. How many buttons did each > console have altogether?
4?
> 3. It is widely known that the R-1/9s could not operate in multiple
> unit with any other equipment. However, all 1703 of
> them could, and did, operate with each other. The Lo-V fleet
> included two groups of cars which could not operate in m. u. with
> so-called standard Lo-Vs. Name these two groups of cars.
Steinways and Filvvers
> 4. Even today, there are several fleets of cars which are totally
> incompatible with any other equipment. Name one of these fleets.
R-44/R-46
> 5. At one time, the R-10s and R-16s provided service on two
> different routes at the same time. Name these two routes.
no idea.
> 6. Name the two routes which the R-38s and slant R-40s were
> initially assigned to.
E and F.
> 7. When originally delivered, the R-32s were all assigned to the BMT
> Southern Division. On which route were the first units placed in
> service?
Brighton
> 8. As most of us know, the BMT standards had no end signs to
> identify a train's route or destination, so passengers
> had to rely on the marker lights if they wanted to know which route
> a particular train was operating on as it pulled into a station.
> Which route was such a train operating on if its marker lights were
> set to red and white?
I'll guess Astoria.
> 9. Name the four contract numbers of cars which were joined into
> married pairs by couplers at the blind ends when originally
> delivered.
I hate multiple choice answers :) I'll guess R-26, R-27, R-29 and R-30.
> 10. Which cars made their final revenue run on March 31, 1977?
Now this one I KNOW and I'll even score some bonus points with the answer. This 8 car train of R-9s was inserted into the J train schedule as a gap train, and "interested persons" were notified of its placement in advance. The train left 168th St / Jamaica at 8:01am and arrived at Broad St at 8:52am. Then it ran empty via the Sea Beach Line and the Coney Island Yard to the great train yard in the sky.
So how'd I do??
--Mark
OK here's my two cents worth (I have not looked at the answers of Mark or Hank):
1. "BX" meant "trailer" or "bunch with a trailer in it"
2. Four I think (not really sure)
3. Composite cars and Gibbs Hi-V?
4. The R131 (R110-B)
5. R16: EE and GG; R10: A and HH (not 100% sure of this)
6. E and F
7. The QB
8. ??? (Brighton was white-white) I don't know (Sea Beach was
triplexes) - 4th Avenue Local maybe?
9. I am going to guess: R26, R28, R29, R33.
10. What was left of the R-6, R-7 and R-9...
Wayne
r-44s were never compatible with any other cars because of there size
in length and couplers,also braking was different.r-46s for the same reason.
1. On a 3-car set of BMT standards marked as such, what did the letters BX stand for?
A set with two power cars and a 4000 series trailer in the middle.
2. On the BMT standards, the conductor's door controls were in the wide post between the center doors.
How many buttons did each console have altogether?
Eight (8)
Top row: 3 buttons: Center one opened all doors, side buttons were to
open storm doors at ends of cars (yes, these were powered on the Standards).
Bottom row: 5 buttons (l to r): close left storm, close doors to left, close doors at conductor's positon, close doors to right, and close right storm.
6. Name the two routes which the R-38s and slant R-40s were initially assigned to.
E & F
7. When originally delivered, the R-32s were all assigned to the BMT Southern Division. On which route
were the first units placed in service?
Q (Brighton Exp)
8. As most of us know, the BMT standards had no end signs to identify a train's route or destination, so
passengers had to rely on the marker lights if they wanted to know which route a particular train was operating
on as it pulled into a station. Which route was such a train operating on if its marker lights were set to red and
white?
Sea Beach Exp (now the N train)
A while back there were postings about a cubic farebox which some of the NYC Dept. of Transportation routes like NY Bus service might use. The farebox was supposed to take dollar bills along with coins and the metrocard. Whatever happened to this plan or in that case proposed farebox?
- Cubic makes all the Fareboxes & Turnstiles in use by TA & DOT "privates".
- The TA version uses the bottom from the prev. mfg., GFI. It's only a can that gets vacumed. SIRT is also part of this.
- DOT now has two versions: NY Bus has one that takes dollars and they are a significant part of the input in those boxes. The rest of the "seven" still have the initial version that only takes coin, tokens & MetroCards.
- LI Bus has the same farebox as the DOT "privates"
- NJT has a Cubic box, but it doesn't take any kind of magnetic fare card.
- There's one overall mainframe system that stores the data from the TA & DOT & LI Bus operations. There is about 7 computers that have pieces/copies of this data. NJT is NOT part of this TA system.
Disclaimer: I'm not a official source of this information, just a nosy SubTalk buff.
Mr t__:^)
The NY BUS Service fareboxes do not take dollar bills. Instead they have a metal box on the side in which the rider deposits the money. The farebox is the same that is on all the privates. Liberty lines also uses a metal box on the side for those wishing to pay with dollar bills.
Paul thanks for the correction to my post !
Coincidentally, this AM, I was talking to a Cubic source in NYC about another matter & I asked about this. He confirms that NY Bus Serv is using a drop box for the bills right now & said the add-on unit will probally arrive this Spring. As you all might suspect I don't hesitate to ask questions because of my nosyness, but sometimes I don't get the whole story the first time around. Technically, we'er in competition with the other "privates" so officially some of this stuff is none of my business, but in practice we'er found it benificial to get along with each other, so we do.
P.S. Dave ... I also adv. this site A LOT & encourage anyone who will give me the opportunity to say so, to sign-on & give it a try ;-)
So, Ted, Harry, Cathy, Jeff, Steve, Tim, John, Mike, Ed, etc. got your ears on yet ?
Mr t__:^)
FYI, SIR has these fareboxes, but they're only used (barely) to print transfers. I'd have to look in my box to find one, but they come out with a route number like '123' Nothing goes into these boxes.
-Hank
Those Cubic fareboxes look very strange sitting atop the GFI vacuum bases. By the way, the type of Cubic box that the MTA uses are unique. No other operator uses this type of farebox.
Fifth Avenue Coach had early Johnson Type J boxes and Grant fareboxes with built in money changers (they had chimes and gongs for every type of coin when deposited). Grants were also used by Triboro Coach and Green Bus Lines. NYCTA had Johnson Type "D"
MaBSTOA and NYCTA changed to Johnson (later Keene) K-25s. They had a coin return drawer.
Later they had vaults (exact change required). These were replaced with vacuum bases. These were sold by the Transit Museum. Then came the GFI electronic boxes with the vacuum bases. I think these lasted the shortest time since they were replaced by the Cubic boxes.
What next?
Jorge,
I don't get the impression, from talking to Cubics & individuals at other cities, that the NYC "IFU" is unique to NYC. Unless you just mean the Cubic/Keene combination (top/base).
Huston had one of the first of this type, it still takes bills. A number of other cities, both in the US & outside, have configurations similar to the "privates" box. Chicago is still an interesting exception ... they retained the GFI box for coin & bills, then strapped on a "shoe box" to process dip cards & transfers. BTW, the Chicago cards look exactly like NYC, except for the graphics !
Also, Cubic isn't the only game in town. CT has a GFI box that COULD
the same job. Right now it's a time/pass based swipe system, i.e. the card has "rides" vs. value on it. Can you say "Travel Card" ?
P.S. I'm still interested in trading out-of-town dip/swipe cards for some of mine ... how about for a "Then & Now", i.e. Rockefeller Center Christmas trees or "Jazz In Motion", incl photos of new/old Rs ?
Mr t__:^)
Atlanta's MARTA and CCT have the GFI boxes with an add on swipe unit for their cards.
Great input, this nosy guy thanks you for the update ;-)
Back in 1996 when I talked to someone there they had 682 GFI's on the buses & 160 Cubic for the rail.
I read something about the Worlds Fair that seemed to indicate that they had replaced the GFI with a NY kind of box. I never pursued it, so this is valuable information to me, thanks !
P.S. Some of us "privates" recommended that DOT do this "shoe box" mod vs. replacement thing, it would have been cheeper, the GFI boxes weren't all that old & we could have kept the bills. Rudy even got into this at the end, but the die was cast & the rest is history. My current job is a bit less stressful, so maybe Virgal & Larry did me a favor ?
Mr t__:^)
SEATTLE METRO's GFI fareboxes have a Swipe Reader built in below the coin slot and next to the bill eater
Zack, Thanks for the input. I knew that Spokane had about 115 Cubic fareboxes, but didn't know what Seattle had.
BTW, CT Transit probally has the same box that you're talking about, also we had some here (before the switch to Cubic). They came from Liberty Lines in Westchester.
Mr t__:^)
The TA replaced the Keene K-25 vacuum based fareboxes (originally in black and stainless steel repainted to an awful blue) with the GFI "Faremaster" electronic farebox (mounted on a vacumm base; in lifeless stainless steel. UGH!)
The TA placed the K-25s, minus the counting mechanism, on sale at the Transit Museum and advertised on several industry magazines.
Faremasters were replaced by the Cubics. What became of the Faremasters? Are they for sale? Price? With counting mechanism? Where?
In fact, what happened to the private's "Cents-A-Bill" boxes? Are they for sale? etc???
I have an ex-TA K-25 (with a counting mechanism from some place else). Right now it will not count nor will stop its cycling. Can any one help?
Ours were bought by a junk dealer, however he came back wanting keys to the equip., so I suspect they were installed somewhere out-of-town.
Re: Fixing an old one ... last week I was at the Woodside Elect. Shop, they had some of the old GFI components on display, i.e. before & after. A Farebox mechanic at LI Bus showed me a couple of GFI components (they had the older box) s-o-o-o-o ask around. At this depot everything went to the junk dealer, we were about to move to a new building so it was my opporunity to clean up a little. (I kept a key & a "bullet" for old times sake, the bullet makes a nice paperweight)
Mr t__:^)
The very tragic incident of the young lady being pushed in front of an 'N' train this past weekend points out several of this societies ills and inconsistancies. Clearly this was another mentally incompetant person floating through the subway system, benignly until he snapped. The tragedy is that an innocent person lost her life when he did. Other victims were the train operator who became an unwilling accomplice to the crime, the young ladies family and friends, and the thousands of people who were delayed due to the accident. In addition, each of us has become a victim because each of us now feels a little less safe and a little less trusting of strangers. But besides the victim herself, the MTA will likely be the biggest victim of this tragedy.
Inevitably, a lawsuit(s) will evolve from this horrible tragedy. The doctor who set this person loose on society and the facility that released him can not be held responsible. The legislature that passed the laws that permitted or mandated this person's freedom will not be held responsible either. The family of the perpertrator will be held blameless too. However, I can assure you that the legal system will come foward with some bizzar rationalization as to why the MTA was liable for this death. Once again, society will be victimized in the name of the victim...
From my own layman's standpoint, I see no way that the MTA or NYCT can be held liable for the unfortunate death of this woman. From what I have heard and read the blame lies with the NYS Department of Mental Health - they saw fit to release this person without properly ensuring that he was stabilized. Some schizophrenics have been known to be violent if they do not take their medication, such is the case here. At the very least, people who have exhibited violent tendencies should be monitored to ensure that they are taking their medication. Up until the late 1980s, many such people were hospitalized for extended periods, then the practice stopped. I know from first-hand experience about mental illness - both my common-law wife and her brother suffer from some form of this disease. I am not advocating that the rights of the mentally ill be taken from them - merely stating that those who have exhibited violent behavior be monitored to ensure that this behavior not re-occur; i.e. make sure that they take their medication.
Wayne
From what I read in the Times this morning, this fellow had not exhibited any violent tendancies...
"From my own layman's standpoint, I see no way that the MTA or NYCT can be held liable for the unfortunate death "
I'm no lawyer but let's see:
Lawyer to TA - "Approximately how many homeless and mentally disfuntional people use the subway system for shelter or refuge?"
"What doe the TA do about the homeless or mentally disfunctional living on the trains and in the stations?"
Lawyer to the TA "How often are customers warned about the possibliities of being pushed in by a mentally unstable person?" "When was the PA system at that station last checked?" "When the token clerk saw the assailant enter the system, why didn't he or she notify the police?"
Lawyer to TA - "When was the last time Train Operator XXXXXX had a physucal for fitness for duty?" "Were his vision and reflex time checked?"
Lawyer to TA - "What is the stopping distance of an R-68 at 30 MPH?"
"At what speed did the train enter the station?" "When was the last time that the Xth car in the train had a brake problem?"
Any more questions?
Question for John B. Bredin. Would a lawywer refuse this case? (Note back in the 1980s junk bond boom, every bank said they turned down more deals than they bought -- but SOME bank bought EVERY deal).
If filed, would a motion to dismiss succeed? If the lawsuit names everyone in sight, could a motion be filed to waive the TA part of it?
I don't think you can underestimate the threat to the city's economy this sort of thing represents. The city's economy relies on people who can afford to pay taxes (which support the subways, among other things) deciding they want to be here. But it is a counter-intuitive choice, since it is a much different life from the rest of the country.
The "of course" life is in the suburbs. So no one decides not to live in the suburbs due to the risk of dying in an auto accident, but I'll bet there are people deciding not to move to NY because they don't want to risk death on the subway. Anecdotes beat statistics every time.
Good question. Just from the experience with the firms I've worked for, I'd say we would take the case, with the focus being on the psychiatrist and the Mental Health Department for not adequately caring for their patient, the assailant. It shouldn't be too hard to find a psychiatric expert that would say that good medical practice requires supervising and checking up on patients with severe mental illness. Surely, it's not reasonable medical care to throw a mental patient into the proverbial deep end of the pool and then walk away, posting no lifeguards.
We'd probably name the TA and the motorman, but only for discovery purposes and to have them in just in case our expert says the motorman could have stopped in time. (Because the TA's liability and that of the motorman are linked, the TA's attorney would probably represent the motorman, and he or she would not be put to the expense of employing counsel.) For malpractice reasons, you don't want to exclude any serious potential defendant from your complaint and then find out later that they may be the party responsible but they're out for good on the Statute of Limitations. It's better to name everyone in the complaint, with generic "kitchen sink" allegations of negligence, and then drop people out later once you have better information. Lawyers have to worry about being sued too!
Incidentally, this is where the public gets the impression that when someone's injured, the lawyers sue everyone with even the slightest connection to the injury. Technically, we do, but with the purpose of having everyone subject to discovery -- in the typical accident case, we don't have much information beyond our client's version of events, the medical reports on our client, and police or accident reports -- and with the knowledge that many if not most of the people named in the complaint will either be dismissed out or will settle for mere nuisance value.
If we sued the TA in this scenario, they would probably lose a motion to dismiss the complaint but would eventually win a motion for summary judgment. The difference is that the first motion is made right after the complaint is filed, and the only issue for the judge is whether, ***assuming all allegations of fact in the complaint are true***, the complaint states a valid cause of action. On the other hand, when the TA makes a motion for summary judgment, after there has been discovery but before a trial, the standard is whether there are any facts in serious dispute. Unless we can present witnesses or physical evidence that the train could have stopped, the testimony of their motorman that it could not have stopped in time will win them the motion.
"Anecdotes beat statistics every time."
Boy, isn't that the God's honest truth!! Perception IS reality. Actually, perception is stronger than reality, because it's difficult to change a perception, especially a strongly-believed one, by demonstrating reality. "The entire city is a slum." (I love this one, which one encounters in the suburbs of Chicago too. Ever hear of the Gold Coast? Lincoln Park?) "The subways are dens of violent crime used only by the poor." (All those twentysomethings getting on the L at Belmont in $500 suits and alpaca coats are janitors?) And, of course, "civil litigation is a lottery with no rules, where people win millions of dollars for no good reason." (If that were so, would I be practicing land-use law now or would I still be at the personal-injury firm down the street?)
Let me add something. None of us know what happened on the subway that day. We were not there.
Did the N train come to a stop in a reasonable amount of time? I dunno. You dunno either. Could the N train have stopped sooner if the MTA maintained them better? spent a little more money on better parts? changed the brakes? adjusting the thingamajiggy? Would the woman have fallen out of harm's way if the tracks were designed differently? the platforms were built differently? Would Mr. Psycho have pushed the woman if he was forced to take medication? if she hadn't looked at him or whatever? if some doctor somewhere had given him different medication? if his family gave a shit in the first place? I dunno. You dunno either.
Part of what our legal system does is force people to think about these questions before the accident happens. Of course, courts can only act after the accident happened. (By and large, the rest of government leaves well enough alone, too. If you'd like to pay more in taxes, though . . .) Someone has to test the status quo and convince someone with authority that the status quo is unreasonable and should change. The only question is, who decides. There are three possibilites: 1) no one decides because there is no mechanism for effecting change, 2) a judge or jury decides, or 3) the legislature or the mayor or the department of transportation, etc. makes the same decision as #2.
Before jumping on the court and lawyer bashing bandwagon, consider this: the legislature refuses to tax to raise $ to adequately treat the mentally ill. The governor, etc. released these folks into the streets. The City of New York goes to great lengths to avoid paying money for anything it doesn't have to. None of these groups have been willing to get serious about treating the mentally ill. Those institutions did nothing the last time someone was pushed in front of a train. Or the time before. Or before that. (Well, OK, those victims weren't cute blonds, maybe this time . . . .) Was there really nothing reasonable that oculd have been done to prevent this tragedy? Without the lawyers and the courts, it is very unlikely that anyone would test that question, except to rant and rave.
--mhg
City and state refuse to pay for things? Do you live here? New York's state and local taxes, as a share of its residents income, are higher than in almost any other place. People earning $25,000 in NYC pay a higher share of their income in state and local taxes than those earning $150,000 in most of the country, and those earning $150,000 in NYC pay even more.
Larry,
Whether New Yorkers pay more or less in taxes than people living elsewhere has nothing to do with _how_ that money is spent by New York City and New York State. I know you understand that. What are you trying to say? "City and state refuse to pay for things?" doesn't mean anything.
The fact is that the City and State, as well as the Federal governement, have dropped their one time commitment to the comprehensive care of the mentally ill, leaving that responsibility piecemeal to private groups and to whichever state and municipal services run into these people in the course of their business (e.g. police, hospitals, shelters).
--mhg
I have tried to stay out of this but I cant. Let's see: remember the guy who killed someone at the Post Office somewhere-we dont here blame the post office or dont use the post office. there was the fast food place where someone killed a kid-we dont hear stop going to that fast food chain. While it is regrettable, crime is a part of life- once in Memphis, TN a woman got killed by a car while she was sitting at a bus stop bench. The car was hit by another car which cause the first car to hit the sidewalk and the bench- we dont hear "bus benches are bad."
(People are killed in Post Offices but we don't hear that Post Offices are dangerous).
Yes we do! The term "going postal" didn't enter the English language in recent years for nothing. Likewise, the school violence issue. You get two or three killings in a row, and it becomes a hot topic. Suddenly, every time someone catches someone else with a pocketknife in their locker anywhere in the U.S., its national news, instead of not even making the local paper. So it seems like something bad is happening every day. How about airline safety? It just so happened we got two years worth of crashes in one year, and there was a big outcry. We had no crashes last year. Yes, it was in the paper, and I saw it, but it wasn't in the National Enquirer.
Like I said, a series of coincidences and anecdotes trumps statistics every time. We can say subways are safe until we are blue in the face -- I've done it with my non-city relatives many times (you're not taking your kids on those trains are you?), but it won't matter. Did you hear any reports that no one was pushed on the subway tracks yesterday? Neither did I.
It's worse for us city dwellers, since the suburbs are the middle and upper income "of course" choice. If enough rednecks let loose with AK-47s, people will be afraid of rural areas too. But no one will ever be made to feel that their child died in an auto accident because they chose to live in a suburb.
> How about airline safety? It just so happened we got two years
> worth of crashes in one year, and there was a big outcry. We had
> no crashes last year. Yes, it was in the paper, and I saw it,
> but it wasn't in the National Enquirer.
Again, statistics can say anything you want. The article in the news recently stated that *American* airline carriers didn't have any fatal accidents last year. But don't forget SwissAir and others. SwissAir's planes fall under FAA regulations because they fly here so to discount them from the statistic of air safety is misleading. 8 of the last 12 flights I took were on "non-American" carriers (British Airways and Air France). Excluding these from the statistics would indicate that for whatever reason their safety standards aren't the same as the American carriers but the regulations are the same for each, foreign and domestic airlines, if they fly in the U.S., right?
Just another example of statistics that can be used to prove any argument...
[Like I said, a series of coincidences and anecdotes trumps statistics every time. We can say subways are safe until we are blue in the face -- I've done it with my non-city relatives many times (you're not taking your kids on those trains are you?), but it won't matter. Did you hear any reports that no one was pushed on the subway tracks yesterday? Neither did I.]
Subway incidents unfortunately tend to get wide attention. This is true even among the non-New York media. Consider that Kendra Webdale's murder was one of only a few U.S. news stories reported on cnn.com's main page. Non-multiple murders hardly ever get that sort of attention.
The same can be said for Denver International Airport. If the train system breaks down, it gets national attention. It's been working fine since last summer. Same thing concerning anything else that happens out there. Then we hear about what a waste of money it was, etc., etc.
BTW, it looks as if they're going to attempt to fix the inbound portion of the automated baggage system, which delayed the airport's opening in the first place. The outbound part of the system has been used since Opening Day, and it has always worked fine. The inbound portion got overloaded during the holiday crunch three years ago and was shut down. I personally still have no complaints about DIA. IMHO, the day will come when people will say it was a good thing it was built when it was. The 2nd Ave. line may open before that happens, but....
I have a complaint about DIA...
It caused Continental to have to drop it as a hub, and service to parts of the west on Newark's principle airline haven't recovered until now with the new partnership with Northwest.
> Other victims were the train operator who became an unwilling
> accomplice to the crime
I'm sure not too many people even thought of the indelible stamp that has been placed in this train operator's memory having seen the crime and knowing that his/her train was involved and nothing could be done to stop the train in time. I cannot imagine it. it must have been horrible.
I hope the MTA offers him/her counseling services if the t/o feels he/she needs it.
--Mark
According to the Post, the MTA is providing counseling. Of course, according to the Post, the blame for this killing lies with former Governor Carey. Always nice to have someone to blame.
--mhg
The policy of the Office of Mental Health is to reduce the census of the state mental hospital plain and simple. I am a psychiatric social worker and know first hand the policy and procedures of OMH. After care is provided for clients who are discharged, but definitely not
enough to support all the clients in the community. For example, the
Staten Island slasher was scheduled for semi-discharged from the hospital.Because the client's lawyer felt he should be given the
opportunity to live in the community. My clinical assessment in this case is
that once this client is discharged he would stop his medication and
aftercare treatment. Thereby presenting a risk to himself and the
public at large. In the same vein, you cannot lock someone up for the
rest of life and throw away the key.
Communication must be maintain with the proper authorities when
a client escapes and the community at large. Increased funding for
support networks to intergrate the client back into the community.
Workers who make home visits to support clients in the community need
to be increased and not downsized, to prevent further tragics in the
community
If I'm not mistaken, didn't Gov. Pataki recently propose releasing 2,000 potential Andrew Goldsteins -- mentally ill people with criminal histories -- while cutting back on funding for group homes? You don't suppose that, wherever they might have come from, these people will be wandering around Scarsdale, do you? The only question is IND, BMT, or IRT. The Murdoch led post hit Carey, with good reason. What about Pataki?
Larry, good point about our beloved governor, George "Potato-head" Pataki and the Post.
BTW, did anyone besides me notice in the papers that this nutzoid -- Goldstein -- actually ADMITTED to police that he pushed the young woman to her death? If I recall correctly, most Schizofrenics DON'T recall their violent incidents (ie, like having a "blackout"). So, in theory he SHOULD BE held accountable for his actions since he seemed to be congnizent of the crime.
Later, Doug aka BMTman
I do not think psychiatry that easily. Schizophrenia is not a one size fits all disease, for starters.
Would someone tell me the evidence that Goldstein has a violent history? Have not seen it in the news, though being away from New York I have seen a lot less news on this than y'all. Someone compared him to the Staten Island Slasher. Well, that individual obviously has a violent history. Very different story.
David, Mr. Goldstein did have a violent history while he was an
inpatient at Creedmoor Psych. Center as stated by a fellow social
worker. And as for the Staten Island slasher he did not have a
recorded violent history. Currently, he has not exhibited any violent
outburst since his admission to my state psych. center. In fact he is
currently working in a rehab program, so depised his history he is a
client slated for discharged. (I would not agree with his discharged)
But again, Albany's primary concern is to discharged clients to
the community at all cost. Not that I agree with this policy, but that
is the current OMH policy.
I have one policy to blame for this accident - DEINSTITUTIONALIZATION. In the 1980s, mental hospitals began releasing thousands of mental patients onto the streets and many of them became homeless. If the government was responsible and cared for society rather than the bottom dollar of keeping these patients out of society, the young girl killed at 23rd Street would still be here with us today. I've worked in a state psychiatric hospital, and believe me, a lot of these people seem like the most normal people. But you never know, because the guy you're playing checkers with one day could have killed his mother the previous day.
There is NO cure for schizophrenia. The only hope is for them to take their meds. BUT, when their condition improves because of the meds, it makes them feel that they do not need to take their meds anymore. When they stop taking their meds, they become dangerous. Schizophrenics need to stay under constant lockup and supervison for the betterment of society. We can't afford to lose even ONE person. Imagine if that person was your daughter or your sister.
I am sorry but I very much disagree with your opinion on public policy and schizophrenics. Clearly the lack of follow up care after deinstitutionalization was a disaster. Perhaps deinstitutionalization has gone too far; too many have been released. Certainly, there are going to be mistakes in the system. Even if every schizophrenic is locked up, FOREVER (precisely what you advocate), some doctor somewhere will miss a diagnosis and some schizophrenic will not get locked up and maybe hurt someone. (More to the point, doctors would avoid making diagnoses...) What do you want, national compulsory checkups - maybe with 48 hours of observation - at the age of 19 or so, with those who are schizophrenic immediately caged up? That's bananas! There are millions of schizophrenics out there...
Should we also imprison every criminal forever because they are more likely to commit crimes? Should we imprison those between the ages of 13 and 30 since that age group commits so much crime? Not policies that are compatible with a free society, or any sense of fairness or justice, imho.
One idea that might help is to require deinstitutionalized mental patients to take their medication under supervision. This is similar to what's sometimes done with tuberculosis patients. If the mental patients fail to comply, then they should be re-institutionalized. Properly executed, a program of supervised medication would allow many people to live at least semi-normal lives while protecting the public.
However, deinstitutionalizing patients AND adding supervision is a shift of resources around the state.
The purpose of New York State is to shift money from undeservring people (those living in NYC) to deserving people (those living elsewhere). When patients left the hospitals in the 1970s, the hospitals were kept open and people kept their jobs. That's why the money wasn't there for outpatient care. I guess the idea was that all the problems would be dumped into NYC, which everyone else would abandon.
Will they really reduce employment in these upstate mental hospitals, with or without adding care in the city? Government employment has been going down in the city, but up everywhere else in the state, since mid-1990. I guess some people believe life is getting a little too good in Brooklyn. As I said, the only question here is IND, BMT, or IRT.
[The purpose of New York State is to shift money from undeservring people (those living in NYC) to deserving people (those living elsewhere). When patients left the hospitals in the 1970s, the hospitals were kept open and people kept their jobs. That's why the money wasn't there for outpatient care. I guess the idea was that all the problems would be dumped into NYC, which everyone else would abandon ... as I said, the only question here is IND, BMT, or IRT]
Hmmmm. I don't know about Upstate, but at least in the case of Long Island, the mental hospitals weren't kept open despite having had most patients discharged. Kings Park and Central Islip have been shut down completely in recent years. Pilgrim State's still open (the only state facility for the island's 2.6 million population), but I believe on a much reduced scale.
As far as the dumping of problems onto the city is concerned, well, I suspect that the transit system is at least partially responsible. Figure it this way - deinstitutionalized mental patients aren't likely to have cars, so unless they stay with family members, living in largely transit-less suburban and rural areas would be quite difficult. Now the city, with its comprehensive, 24/7, relatively inexpensive transit system will make mobility far easier (note that this applies just as well to low-income carless people in general). The transit system's offer of mobility to everyone is of course one of its best features. But it can also be a curse.
The Hudson Valley Psychiatric Center(?) is also essentially closed, except as a prison. So is Millbrook. When the state psychiatric centers closed, the people working there, mostly civil servants, could not simply be fired. But that was something like 15 years ago.
Part of the reason why so many crazies ended up in the City is that the State released them to the care of their families, or to their last known addresses. Proportionatly many people live in the City, so lots of crazies ended up here. The fact that people come to cities because cities offer them greater opportunities than elsewhere is no more or less true for those with mental problems that for those without (even though the opportunities each group seeks may be different).
I suspect that the real appeal of the subway is that it provides one opportunity in particular, shelter, 24/7. Parks and city streets just don't compare when it's cold out.
--mhg
[I suspect that the real appeal of the subway is that it provides one opportunity in particular, shelter, 24/7. Parks and city streets just don't compare when it's cold out.]
Yes, that's right. It could be that the shelter aspect of the subway system is considered even more important than the transportation aspect.
Which brings up yet another legal argument that lawyers might make in the Webdale case or the next time a rider is attacked by a skell - that by not using a DC Metro-style distance and time based fare system, the NY subway creates an environment conducive to antisocial behavoir. Never mind the fact that such a fare system would require exit swipes and would be totally contrary to the one-city-one-fare policy that's almost always been followed. Mark my words, some lawyer's probably thinking of this line of reasoning already.
Why can't it be that this disturbed man pushed someone in front of the train and leave it at that. Sure, the family can try to go after his assets, but seeing as he probably has none, there should be nothing else to do. But that is not what will happen. The TA will get sued and waste part of their surplus in court costs defending themselves. It's that same story every time.
This is such a tragedy and now I make sure that I don't stand too close to the edge when awaiting a train.
I do not think that the distance pricing keeps any homeless people out of the Metro. At any station you can turn around and ride back (I have, many times) so there is no problem staying on the train indefinitely. In fact, if you come back to a spot close to where you started, it is a cheaper ride than in NYC. (I never figured out what happens if you get off at the station you started at, but it is a good bet that it is the minimum fare - $1.10 when I left DC).
What keeps homeless folks off the Metro is a) overnight closure (which has been discussed here) and b) aggressive strict police. The Metro is, if anything, over-policed. Do not eat on the Metro, it is fairly likely to cost you $100!
[I do not think that the distance pricing keeps any homeless people out of the Metro. At any station you can turn around and ride back (I have, many times) so there is no problem staying on the train indefinitely. In fact, if you come back to a spot close to where you started, it is a cheaper ride than in NYC. (I never figured out what happens if you get off at the station you started at, but it is a good bet that it is the minimum fare - $1.10 when I left DC).]
I had thought that if you try to exit the DC Metro more than four hours after entering the system, the exit gate won't release and you have to see the station agent. That would be a deterrent to skells even though it probably wouldn't stop them entirely. I may be in error about how the time system works, however.
At any rate, as I mentioned elsewhere in this thread, the skell issue may not be relevant at all to the Kendra Webdale murder because Goldstein wasn't a skell in the first place, and as far as anyone knows may not have been in the subway system for a prolonged period before committing the crime.
You could certainly be right. I would have thought some of my adventures after the "Blizzard of '96" on the Metro (no work for a week) were longer than four hours, but I am not sure of that...
Yes, well, wouldn't it be nice to have someone to blame? After all, if you think the crazy guy really is crazy, you can't blame him. What a problem -- there MUST be someone to blame. This is America, and everything bad that happens must be someone's fault. So, clearly someone must be held accountable, but who? How about someone who isn't here to defend himself (blame Governor Carey or Ronald Reagan for deinstitutionaling the mentally ill -- see today's Post). Blame someone who doesn't exist (blame the victim, or "society"). Blame some amorphous group so that there is no need to identify an individual (since no individual presents itself (blame doctors, commissioners, and hospitals for not keeping this guy locked up forever, blame the MTA for operating the subway that killed her, blame the government for not "doing something"). But for goodness sake, blame someone! Let no tragedy go unpunished.
--mhg
Mark brings up a good point. Sometimes people snap - and some of them who snap are insane. Blaming this on deinstitutionalization is a vast oversimplification. Blaming it on the doctors who worked with this fellow is jumping to a conclusion - really no more fair than if you read that a woman was hit by a train, and based only on that, blamed the motorman.
Deinstitutionalization had major, major problems - namely the lack of follow up care. However, if you think that deinstitutionalization itself was bad, do some research into the condition of US mental hospitals prior to that process. Here's one to look up: Byberry (sp?) which was in Philadelphia. Truly a horror.
I've read that the mentally ill are less violent than the population as a whole. Even in schizophrenics, I do not think that the rates of violence are that high. I do not think it is fair to assume that those who treated this man should have been able to see his violent potential. Treating these folks is not trivial! Note the article in the NYTimes today about how this man's aquaintences found him very gentle and un-violent.
Lastly, consider that if the mentally ill were frequently hospitalized (ie incarcerated) for being mentally ill and therefore possibly dangerous, they would avoid treatment even more than they do...and more tragedies like this one would occur.
The mentally ill certainly need treatment. But locking them up is not the treatment they need! Sometimes bad things happen - we cannot always blame someone.
[Sometimes people snap - and some of them who snap are insane. Blaming this on deinstitutionalization is a vast oversimplification. Blaming it on the doctors who worked with this fellow is jumping to a conclusion - really no more fair than if you read that a woman was hit by a train, and based only on that, blamed the motorman ... Sometimes bad things happen - we cannot always blame someone.]
You're correct, but the problem is that our legal system always looks for someone to blame even if there is no fault in a logical sense. As a result, the MTA may very well be held liable for this incident.
"...our legal system always looks for someone to blame even if there is no fault in a logical sense."
I'm sick of generic statements like this. "Our legal system" is not based on the philosopy that behind every injury is a fault. With the exception of product liabilty, where you have to show a defect in the product, the law does not allow a person to collect damages except when their injury was caused by the **unreasonable** (or intentional) action or inaction of the person or persons who is/are being made to pay damages.
The problem is that many **people who are injured** (not "the system") feel that someone must be at fault, and bring a lawsuit. So that every injury that IS caused by someone's fault can be remedied, the system cannot turn away a complaint that states a legal cause of action, however weakly backed-up the allegations of fact are, until there's been at least some gathering of information (discovery). If after discovery the plaintiff cannot put up witnesses or evidence that show he's right, to counter the defense's witnesses or evidence, then the case is dismissed, and rightfully so. However, if the plaintiff does have serious evidence for his case, then the matter goes to trial. When reasonable people can differ over who is right, there is no "frivolous" lawsuit, even if it turns out that the plaintiff loses.
The fault is not in "the legal system" but in the perception or belief of the public (or parts of the public) that someone is responsible for every injury. This perception was not created by the reality of the system: nearly three-quarters of all lawsuits are dismissed, nearly a quarter settle, and only a few percent precede to trial. Maybe it was created by the perception of the system as a lottery, perpetuated by anecdotal evidence and biased news coverage of a few sensational cases. Or maybe it has to do with the modern belief that since life has been made longer and safer by technology, perfect and absolute safety can be achieved.
Any possibility that the perception was created/enhanced by the advertisements (all over the subway, I might add) that scream -- "Injured in an Accident Call 1-800-555-5555"???
That's right John, maybe its different in Chicago, but here in NYC the idea is that if you are injured you deserve compensation. Negligence has nothing to do with it. The ads don't say "did someone else's mistakes cause your accident?" They just say if you were injured, we can help get you money. The ones on radio are even worse. (Wasn't there a law at one time that lawyers couldn't advertize? Perhaps it was a good law.)
Lawyers turn down cases if the defendent does not have insurance or reachable assets, not if there is no real negligence. Companies are increasingly unwilling to offer insurance in Brooklyn. On the other hand, insurance companies try to get out of legitimate claims by refusing to pay and stalling in court for years, ruining people through lawyers' bills. Sorry, but I don't consider myself ignorant, and it seems to me that the legal/insuance industry has become one big ripoff.
[... but here in NYC the idea is that if you are injured you deserve compensation. Negligence has nothing to do with it.]
It doesn't even have to be physical injury. My guess is that not only will Kendra Webdale's family sue the TA, but so will some of the subway riders who were on the platform at the time and saw the incident. They'll claim that they suffered emotional trauma by what they witnessed. No doubt it wasn't a pretty sight, but the facts remain that (1) it is an extreme stretch of the imagination to think that the TA could have been in any way negligent, and (2) people shouldn't be able to collect money for such things at all.
By the way, although it's been expressed on this board and elsewhere that plaintiffs' lawyers in fact do screen out frivolous personal injury lawsuits, things work differently in the real world. Lawyers are so thick on the ground that many of them can't afford to turn away cases with even a slight chance of success - the old "beggars can't be choosers" theory. Witness the fact that law school graduates still face a significant degree of unemployment after several years of nationwide economic growth. In many cases, going to law school is no longer a carefully thought-out career choice; it's instead a fallback position for liberal arts graduates who can't do math, can't do science, can't do computers, and therefore are unprepared for jobs in growing fields.
Okay, that's my rant for the evening :-)
We have commercials like that in Denver, too. Attorneys who specialize in wrongful injury shout that they'll "fight for every dollar you deserve."
The terms "wrongful" injury and "deserve" are not used in NYC ads. Its more like "Injured, even slightly? You may be entiled to a significant amount of money." As I said to John, it may not be that bad in Chicago, but it is in NYC. Perhaps it is a localized problem.
[The terms "wrongful" injury and "deserve" are not used in NYC ads. Its more like "Injured, even slightly? You may be entiled to a significant amount of money." As I said to John, it may not be that bad in Chicago, but it is in NYC. Perhaps it is a localized problem.]
These "Have you been injured" ads are found in most places these days. While driving down to Florida last year, I was quite amused by the motel-room phone book in some one-stoplight North Carolina town off I-95 - the rear cover had a glossy ad of that sort from some law firm, and the yellow pages display ads were chock full of similar crap. Making a return trip a few months later, I found almost the same situation in another small town phone book, this one in South Carolina. The lawyer glut is pretty much a nationwide phenomenon, so the ads crop up everywhere.
The fault may not be that of the legal system but I don't see lawyers saying to prospective clients that their suits are frivalous, or the courts are too crowded for this crap, or "you are being unreasonable". The fact is that even in the most bogus suit, the lawyers get a fee, win, lose or whatever. My former attorney had a little statue of Ben Franklin on his desk. The slogan on the base simply said, "Sue the bastards." Need I say more?
As I'm reading the various comments, this comes to my mind in reference to this case or people intentionally jumping in front of a subway train: a lawyer would sue the TA for negligence because the trains enter the stations too fast. Can you imagine the havoc to this railroad if a motorman would have to reduce the speed of his train to 5 to 10 MPH at the point he enters every station? Sure, virtually no one would ever be struck by a train again, but.......
I can see the day coming when some lawyer will file suit, saying the MTA should put up some kind of system like the airport tram at Dallas-Fort Worth has -- a glass wall at the edge of the platform, with sliding doors to match up with the train car's doors. Never mind that the different car lengths on the BMT and IND would make that an improssibility, they'll say it would prevent someone from being shoved onto the tracks, and some jury will believe them, because the MTA has `deep pockets'
There is a train service supervisor working in the 'C' division who several years ago, as a motorman on an 'F' train, struck a jumper at 15th Street. The jumper, who survived minus some body parts, sued the TA and this person personally. he did not prevail but to think that a lawyer could try to pedal a case like this and that the courts would entertain it isnothing short of frightening. It makes reasonable people suspect the legal industry and view lawyers as prostitutes.
The Famous LIBERAL attorney Ron Kuby is suing the Motorman on that Flatbush bound #2 train that hit the person who was allegedly chased onto the tracks by police at, I believe, was Winthrop st. He claimed the train should have stopped in time.
Kuby would know. It's a good thing lawyers don't let facts or common sense get in their way...
"he did not prevail but to think that a lawyer could try to pedal a case like this and that the courts would entertain it is nothing short of frightening."
I agree that the attorney should not have taken the case, and I've never denied that there are some attorneys who will take any case (hence the lurid ads on the subway and TV).
But the courts have **no choice** BUT to entertain every case brought to them, at least up to a point. The court clerk HAS to accept every complaint filed with the proper fee, even if it's the proverbial pro-se case accusing the CIA and the Vatican of reading the plaintiff's thoughts by radio. A judge can throw out a complaint right away, but ONLY if, assuming all the alleged facts are true, the complaint doesn't state a legal cause of action. Later, a judge can dismiss a case if the plaintiff has no serious witnesses or evidence, but that can't be done until after discovery is complete.
Do you know at what stage this case you mention ended? Was it thrown out right away? Was it dismissed before trial? Or did the case go to trial and the plaintiff lost?
The media leaves out "little details" like that, which are actually vital information. Just as newspapers libel someone on page one and retract on page 23, the media reports frivolous lawsuits on page one and reports their dismissal on page 23.
I honestly don't know those details
I wonder if anyone has ever jumped in front of a southbound A train as it roared into 42nd St. As if it could stop in time....
It is a difficult issue indeed. I think the real blame lies with the whole concept that "mentally ill" people should be distinguished from "criminals" and not subjected to the penalties prescribed by law for their acts. Basically, this notion is nonsense.
The person who did this has apparently comitted violent acts before. If he had been prosecuted for those acts and sentenced to prison time, he might not have done what he did a few days ago. I say "might not" because human behavior is inherently unpredictable, but it seems to me that the odds would have been a lot better.
I hope that he now will be convicted of murder and receive a 25-years-to-life sentence, rather than being judged "incompetent" and sent to a "hospital". We need to return full jurisdiction over violent and criminal acts to the criminal justice system and remove it from the medical profession. This will not only protect society from "mentally ill" criminals being released without significant punishment, but also protect harmless but eccentric people from being deprived of their freedom because someone thinks them "mentally ill" (like the so-called "Roby Ridge" case last year (or was it 1997?), as well as many others we never hear about). It works both ways.
Aargh. I may have to stop reading this thread.
1. Everyone says that Goldstein has a violent history. References please?
2. At least IMHO there is a sense that there should be some justice in the justice system. Mental illness is a very real thing, and it is a biological condition, not just an excuse that people come up with when it is convenient. There are many cases where someone does something with impaired judgement that kills someone - and we do call all of them murder. People have certainly abused the insanity defense, but thats not an indictment of the defense itself.
3. I think the revolving door of the insanity defense is greatly exaggerated. John Hinkley Jr. is still in St. Elizabeth's for shooting Reagan, 16 years or so after the fact. How many people serve 16 years in prison for attempted murder? There are many famous cases of criminals serving their sentences and being released and committing another crime. Can anyone name a famous case of someone committing a crime, being judged insane, being released from the mental health system after being judged sound, and committing another crime? I am sure there are a few, but I honestly cannot think of any...
Ok, enough ranting. Sorry to go on for so long on something so off topic...
I agree. I can't imagine how any rational person(s) could come to the conclusion that the MTA is responsible for this unfortunate incident. However I won't be surpised if and when a lawsuit is filed against the MTA. I imagine it will allege that the train was operating too fast upon entering the station, I'm sure it will attempt to find some reason why the train's crew was unfit for duty. and they the MTA should safeguard against the type of crime. My quuestion to those people are: If they were in the MTA managements shoes - what steps would they take to prevent these incidents. We all know that the police cannot be in all places at all times.
It's very unfortunate and my heart goes out to the victims' loved ones and the train operator - but I'm sure the lawyers have started salivating already.
Steve, don't worry. The facts won't matter and the truth won't get in anyone's way. The victim's survivors will look for someone to pay. The perpitraitor certainly won't have the proverbial pot to P in and the only "deep pockets" within striking distance will be the poor old NYCT. Thus, the transit system will pay.
The victim's folks could argue that the NYCT should have police in every possible location to prevent crazies from doing this sort of thing. Since NYCT didn't do this, it will be at fault. The token clerk should have known by sight that this was a disturbed person and took action. This didn't happen also. The t/o should have been able to stop at a prescribed distance to avoid the victim. Didn't occur either. Add it all up and bring a blank check - NYCT will lose.
In my line of work, I've seen people way over the legal limit get into auto accidents and kill and maim innocent bystanders. Yet, the governmental body, my employer, is held as the responsible party, since road designs never take the impaired driver into account, and how could he/she possibly see lane markings, signs, etc in that state? You may shake your head in disbelief but it happens all the time. And the "deep pockets" always pay. The days of personal responsibility went the way of nickel beers and free lunches (and 5-cent subway fares). Our utterly stupid way of dealing with these bastardizations of the legal system will only perpetuate this sort of nonsense.
Off the soapbox now...
Perhaps the problem here is "joint and several liability" -- that everyone who is in any way liable must pay the whole bill. Everyone will agree that Goldstein is mostly responsible for not taking his medication. Some will assign some blame to whoever did not monitor the medication. But, the TA will be asked to prove that it did not contribute in any way to the accident. In any way.
That is not provable. You can always do more, at a price. You could require people to stand off the platforms until a train pulls in, then hold the train in every station for five minutes while people board. It would take two hours in packed trains to get anywhere. Is it worth it? Does it matter? Look at the hysterical bill to require all apartments to be retrofit with sprinklers at a crushing cost of $4,000 per apartment.
So, lets say the TA is found one-tenth of one percent responsible. And a human life has infinate value, but we need to put a figure on it, say $50 million. None of the other guilty parties has money in anywhere near proportion to their blame. The TA's proportion is $50,000, BUT under joint and several liability, the TA is made to pay the whole thing.
That's the problem.
It's interesting that you bring up joint and several liability, because here in Illinois, it has been curtailed by statute. I haven't practiced personal injury law in a while, but I believe the statute now provides that a party must be at least 25% responsible before they can be held jointly & severally liable. If they are less than 25% responsible, they are liable for only their portion of the damage award.
I have no problem with getting rid of joint and several liability. It's not essential to the plaintiff getting a "full remedy under the law", and as you argue, it gives more than a full remedy because a defendant can be made to pay more than his/her/its fair proportion of the damages.
What I am opposed to is numerical caps on damage awards, mainly because once a number gets locked into a statute, there arisess a constituency (mainly businesses and their defense attorneys) that will oppose increasing it even in the face of inflation. What sounds like an damage cap adequate to compensate the average plaintiff now might not be so after years of inflation. Look at the limits in a typical workers' compensation statute and you'll see what I mean. I had to tell a client, who was in severe pain and had very limited use of his arm (he was in a skilled trade where his arm is his livelihood), who was shocked at how little his employer had to pay for his injury that if he had DIED due to his job, his widow would have gotten about $250,000 max.
Typical lawyer point of view, someone else must pay. Maybe he will go out and buy some life insurance now that he realizes how little his widow would get.
I have no dispute that the legal actions you describe COULD happen, but to me it is a little disrespectful to the victim's family to publicly pronounce that they WILL pursue the legal course of action you describe, with the questionable ethics it entails. Not everyone sues for everything, thank god.
(Many posts have made this same assumption).
[I have no dispute that the legal actions [suit against TA] you describe COULD happen, but to me it is a little disrespectful to the victim's family to publicly pronounce that they WILL pursue the legal course of action you describe, with the questionable ethics it entails. Not everyone sues for everything, thank god.]
Thanks for making this point. I guess it's been assumed without real basis than Kendra Webdale's family will look to the TA for money. While I'm sure there will be a lawsuit, it might very well be limited to Creedmore and the shrinks who treated Goldstein.
Look at it this way, one of the alleged grounds for liability that's been mentioned here (including by me, I'll admit) is that the subway made no attempts to keep out skells. Leaving aside the issue of whether the TA has the legal right to exclude them, the fact remains that Goldstein _was not_ a skell - he had an income source, via disability benefits, and a place of residence.
You are correct that this is not a done deal, but in my experience it's extremely likely that the victim's family/successors will sue NYCT. The unfortunate part of this whole problem is as you've mentioned - who cannot use PUBLIC transit? Can anyone really be kept out for subjective reasons? Sure, those that are intoxicated could be, but then again aren't those who have too much to drink encouraged not to drive? How else, then, are they supposed to travel? Removal of the homeless, crazies, and similar "skels" sounds easy, but wait until the good-hearted types decide that they too have rights to be on transit. The fact remains that little can be done to protect the innocent folks who ride transit, walk the streets, etc. We live in a society (sometimes I wonder about this term!) which maybe is a little too free, since one person's freedom may infringe upon another's.
As much as I hate to see it, the lawsuit is probably coming...
Check your recent history. One celebrated case comes to mind. A family from out west came to NYC to see the US Open. While waiting for a train in midtown, some punks tried to rob the mother. One son came to her aid and was stabbed for his trouble. TA was sued and settled out of court. One could argue that the person brought about his own death by trying to stop a robbery when common sense might have dictated that he not resist. It was said that the token clerk did not act properly and so the TA was held liable. That's life in NYC.
Case #2: A youth (with a long record) robbed and beat a 70+ man in a subway station. During the commission of the crime, he's shot and wounded by a TA police officer. Jury awarded him meggabucks because the officer used excessive force. The old man is now suing the youth for using excessive source. Wanna bet that suit goes nowhere.
Finally, the most celebrated crime in NY Subway history, the Bernie Getz case. Bernard Getz shot 4 pieces of garbage who had attempted to rob him on a subway train. All survived but one is permanently in a wheel chair for life. He was convicted of carrying an unlicensed gun. Darrell Caby, the paralyzed miscreant sued and won megga bucks from Getz but the lawteam of Kuntsler and Kuby either never named the NYC Transit System or they never prevailed.....That's one for the good guys...
If anyone is to blame for this horrific murder, it is the courts of the state of New York. The courts over the years have ordered the de-institutionalization of the mentally ill. This also has given us the mentally ill homeless problem. The person accused in this killing was a resident of a group home in Canarsie. By NY law your community board (if you live in NYC) can not block a group home unless your neighborhood is 'saturated' with such facilities. For years mental health 'advocates' have told us that these group homes are nothing to worry about. Legitimate security concerns are brushed aside as just the 'nimby' symdrome. Why didn't the supervisor in that home make sure that this guy was taking his medication? The mental health advocates will try to minimize this horror by continually calling it an 'isolated incident', tell that to the young woman's family and friends.
I will go on record as saying that this was an isolated incident. There are tens of thousands of mentally ill people in the NYC area. Should they all be institutionalized (imprisoned, essentially) because of this incident?
Every day, people are killed by people under the influence of alcohol. Should we thus declare that any business that sells alcohol is a hazard, and must be closed? Those killed by drunk drivers have families...
This is a really tough issue. Having a place for people who have problems which could lead them to cause problems is necessary, but people will fight to push them somewhere else. That includes the mentally ill, drug abusers, beggers, and criminals released from prison. It also includes bars, and teenagers.
Someone advocated requring community approval for group homes in NYC. If that were the case, there would only be group homes in poor minority neighborhoods, and many people would be on the street. In the suburbs, they burn these things down. That is also why the state will not allow community approval of bars (here is your alcohol connection).
The courts have held that these folks must be allowed in public, so that is where they end up -- parks, sidewalks, trains. This contributes to the "privitization" of space -- new suburbs are built with guard houses and private roads, or with no sidewalks -- and the decline of cities. Perhaps if group homes were spread out there would be less hostility, but they are not. The new trends seems to be the conservatives decide to bus people with problems to areas with concentrations of liberals, punishing the generous with an excess social burden. It is nasty business.
This may be an isolated incident but by no means the first time. Several years ago, a violinist (Renee Katz I believe)was pushed and had her hand severed. What is for sure is that the potential for similar icidents is always present. On the E train for example, during the midnight hours every train has 20 or more homeless. Virtually all are anti-social and some are potentially dangerous. They create a hostile environment on the trains and in the stations. They interfere with the TA employees in the performance of their duties. They are instructed not to confront these people. The police will also not take any action against any of the homeless unless they are laying on the seats or creating a disturbance. The homeless outreach program is not mandatory......
On 2 Jan, I took the from WTC to midtown, departing on the 5:06 a.m. Walking from the back to the front of the train while it was waiting at the terminal for departure, I counted about 30 individuals whom I would have guessed were "living" on the train at the time.
As a matter of fact, recently, I wrote a memo regarding the impact'homeless' individuals were having on the late night cleaning operation. In a survey, we found an average of 22 per train. Keep in mind that the survey was done before the really cold weather set in.
[As a matter of fact, recently, I wrote a memo regarding the impact'homeless' individuals were having on the late night cleaning operation. In a survey, we found an average of 22 per train. Keep in mind that the survey was done before the really cold weather set in.]
Is that an average figure for all lines or just on the worst ones? It's long seemed like the E attracts the most skells, through I've heard they can be pretty thick on the F as well.
They like the lines which stay underground for most or all their trips. Also, the E relays (changes direction) in both terminals, rather than having to relay to a tail track. The F wouldn't have as many since the crew should dicharge the trains at 179 St. before they go to the relay position.
The homeless aka alcoholics, drug addicts, and the mentally ill were unwelcome in most communities. So when the problem reached its peak, any open-minded neighborhood was deluged, and so was the city which became a social landfill for less generous communities elsewhere. So now they are unwelcome in all neighborhoods. Other cities such as Hartford have banned additional social service agencies and programs, on the grounds that they merely make the city the place of choice for people with problems. An advocacy group recently named New York and San Francisco among the least generous cities for the homeless. That is nonsense. The group presumably believes that these cities can be shamed or bullied into doing more for troubled people from around the country.
When confronted with a difficult issue, politicians duck and rationalizing voters punish anyone daring an equitable solution. The "non-decision" if for people with problems to be dumped in our "neighborhood," the subway, which makes the subway the place that no one else wants to be. Perhaps a non-decision has been made to make the subway a de facto shelter system, then blast the TA for how smelly and dirty the trains are. Its a political winner.
Todd: What you say seems to confirm something I've noticed.,that the homeless are again coming back onto the subways.The E, of course, would be a favorite route since it is entirely underground. I've also started seeing beggars near the turnstiles again. I've seen then in the Grand Central railroad terminal also. I wonder if this has anything to do with the merger of the TA and City police? The TA police had made great strides in getting vagrants and other undesirables out of the subway but there seems to be a slackening off of this policy. I have nothing against the poor souls who are down on there luck, but it seems that we move very quickly from the pathetic ones to the dangerous and obnoxtious ones.
Redbird
Well, I guess the existence of this discussion group proves that nearly anything is suitable for a web discussion group.
I found out about this page today, when I took my friends (father and three kids) from New Zealand to the Transit Museum at Court Street. They found it more interesting than the Lubavitcher Rebbe's World Headquarters, which wasn't surprising. Daddy wanted to see that. The kids liked the trains. I liked the new exhibits, particularly the collection of signs.
I hadn't been there since 1994, when my dying father, Paul Lippman, insisted that we go to it, so he could say goodbye to his world, which was heavily bound up in the subway. He was born and raised in Washington Heights, and rode the subway with regularity to visit his cousins in Brooklyn and The Bronx, and to make deliveries for his father's drugstore. When Dad was going to NYU, he rode the Third Avenue El back and forth, studying for tests.
Grandpa rode the last horsecar line in New York, so it figured that Dad would make the last voyage of the Third Avenue El in Manhattan, on May 12, 1955. The train pulled in at Gun Hill Road, and everybody started tearing it apart with screwdrivers. He yanked a lantern off the train. I inherited that. I also inherited his Low-V sign rack, with three destination signs for the West Side express he rode all his life.
His trains were the Low-V and the D-Type, and mine were the R-12 and the R-15. I rode them a lot, going back up to the Heights from Greenwich Village to visit Grandpa. I got a kick out of the No. 1 train, which rattled through all kinds of odd things -- the 91st Street station, the 125th Street viaduct, the 137th street yard, and the cavernous 168th Street and 181st Street stations. My favorite stations were the ones in Upper Manhattan. At 191st Street you could ride an elevator up to St. Nicholas Avenue or walk down a long passageway to Broadway, which was an interesting contradiction. If we were adventurous, we'd hike over to Bennett Avenue and enter one of those secret entrances to the Independent line's 181st Street and 190th Street stations. They were like castle gates.
But the best rides for Dad and I were the elevated lines in Brooklyn and The Bronx. I loved the disintegrating Culver Shuttle and the Franklin Avenue Shuttle, surely two of the most ridiculous segments of the nation's mightiest subway system. I found it hilarious that this huge and titanic operation could include the absurd one-track Culver shuttle and its lone train.
The Franklin Avenue shuttle was equally funny. Botanic Gardens had one single lightbulb at platform level, but a fine collection of sunflowers standing guard over its entrance. The conductor opened and shut the doors at Dean Street in a matter of seconds, and the Franklin Avenue station looked like it hadn't had maintenance since 1918. The whole line looked like an interurban trolley route.
But the ride I remember best was the Third Avenue El in The Bronx. They still used Low-Vs then, ancient Steinways and World's Fair surplus cars, and then a string of battered R-12s, all marked "Shuttle" on the front. Nobody bothered to mark the Third Avenue El in The Bronx's trains as the 8. Not many people rode the El. The stations were all falling apart. Later on, friends told me how they narrowly missed being hit by bolts and metal falling from the crumbling structure. I can still see all the broken windows at Fordham Road and the empty coal stove at 180th Street. It was a slow, winding, leisurely train ride through a decaying urban nightmare. But I loved it all the same. So did Dad. So did Grandpa.
They closed it on April 29, 1973, and I missed the last train. Dad and I had bigger things to worry about. Grandpa had just had the first of the heart attacks that would kill him in two years, and he was hospitalized. The line's closing had hurt him. Logically, he was at the Lebanon Hospital in The Bronx, next to the El. Just as logically, his room lookd out onto the brooding, abandoned pile of black metal. It glared at him. He glared back. We went to visit. While we talked (mostly about the San Francisco Giants, our favorite team since 1908), we heard a distant whistle -- the last fantrip ever to run on the Third Avenue El. Grandpa winced at the rumble of the Low-Vs up the line. He never heard them again. He moved to Florida, and died there in 1975.
He died around the same time as the Culver Shuttle, and Dad and I went out for that funeral. Nobody else did. Ridership was down to nearly zero, I guess. The bemused token clerk let us unscrew a few metal signs, and we rode back and forth a few times, then off to Coney Island. Sometime after that, the city decided that 168th Street in Jamaica didn't need an elevated line, and we went out for that wake.
This event was better-attended. The local merchants had the peculiar notion that if people couldn't get there by train, their business would do better. They had a bluegrass quartet on the station, and everyone was happy. The MTA rolled out their historic train of D-types, and we went out to 168th Street. We asked the bemused token clerk if we could unscrew a sign, and we did. I told the clerk, "I'm sorry you've lost a job."
"Hmph," he answered. "Tomorrow I'm pushing tokens in The Bronx."
After the festivities, we stood near the D-type. An NYCTA bigshot told the motorman, "You can go anywhere you want, but drop the passengers before you take this into the yards."
"Suits me," said the motorman, and Dad yanked me into the train, and we rattled off with 10 other lucky riders on the last voyage of the QJ train (Brighton Express) virtually nonstop to Coney Island. Passengers waiting for their train were mystified to see this ghost roll by. One person, bouncing onto the platform, snapped her fingers in disgust at missing the train. "She missed it by 30 years," Dad said.
The plans didn't work. 168th Street came down, and the neighborhood's businesses went broke. The Third Avenue El came down, and The Bronx still hasn't recovered. The Culver Shuttle rusted away over 39th Street for 10 years, providing boccie players with cover in the rain, and me with 10 light fixtures and two wooden signs, but the area still hasn't recovered. In fact, the MTA did a lousy job of securing the premises -- twice I walked into the 13th Avenue station, up the stairs, onto the platform, and down the track to the Fort Hamilton Parkway Station. The latter's men's room was converted by local junkies into a heroin shooting gallery. Cutting back mass transit doesn't benefit anybody but scrap dealers.
In 1977, I went to Stuyvesant High School, and helped found the school's subway magazine, Straphanger, with Doug Cohn and Eric Schutz. Some friendships are permanent, some are temporary. These friendships were permanent. 15 years later, Doug and I were at Eric's wedding.
The next time Dad and I got together for a subway event was in 1989, in happier circumstances. They opened the Queensbridge extension, and Dad and all my subway friends got together. We took the train to Coney Island and boarded the first train to go northbound from 57th Street and 6th Avenue. We joined in a little history. Dad was impressed by the new stations. I thought they looked a little fragile. By 1998, I noticed that Lexington Avenue was starting to appear run-down -- and the line was being run as a shuttle while they tore out asbestos and replaced the track. Another triumph for the MTA, I thought. It didn't help that the Giants were losing the World Series in four straight.
Dad suffered a series of strokes in 1989, and by 1994, he was nearing the end of the trail. I was by then a Navy Journalist Second Class, and was going from my duty station in Japan (TV production) to New Zealand (public relations for the US Antarctic Program). Dad was in poor shape. He couldn't understand Charlie Chaplin movies, and if he couldn't figure out a Chaplin plot, he couldn't follow anything. But he knew the details of his life, and the stories of his childhood, and he wanted to be sure I passed them on to my children -- kids he probably knew he would never see.
So we trooped down one last time to the Transit Museum in Court Street, and through sheer will and force, he regained his energy.
We wandered through subway cars, and sat in them, discussing their features. We fingered the gate cars' gates, the old maps, and sat for what must have been hours in the D-Type. Dad was full of energy.
He talked of riding in the turret of three-car 67-footer units to Brooklyn. Of how you knew the single door on a Low-V didn't work because the conductor shoved a newspaper in it. How nobody would vandalize the destination sign racks on the Low-Vs. How it was so baffling to him that there was this circus of lights and trains on the left as you rode southbound on the Broadway Local into Times Square (No Number 1 train for him). How we'd closed the Third Avenue El. The Myrtle Avenue El. The Culver Shuttle. The Queensbridge extension.
I gave him my memories -- sawing off the signs from the Culver shuttle, riding the first train out of Jamaica Center, writing the first issues of the Straphanger, developing subway orientation tours for incoming NYU freshmen, presenting the Transit Museum with London Underground strip maps (purchased from their museum). Mostly, it was just train rides. R-11s on the Franklin Avenue shuttle. R-40s on the LL. R-27s on the RR. R-1/9s on the CC. And, inevitably, towards the end, back to our common subject -- the Third Avenue El in The Bronx.
He was happy. He knew his world had been preserved, and his values passed on. He knew I had just proposed marriage to the only woman I ever loved, and also knew he'd probably never see his grandchild. But he was talking to that kid through me.
After we went to the Transit Museum, he had energy for one last excursion, up to his old neighborhood in Washington Heights. He found his buildings in better shape now (as condos) than in 1938. He bade them farewell, and told me where his apartments were, which businesses were drugstores (apparently every corner) and were now Dominican grocery stores. Then we went home, and he sat down in front of the TV set, and began to slip away, while I flew to New Zealand to defend democracy. In January, Kathy took him to the hospital. He walked in cheerily. He never came out.
The city of Christchurch re-opened a trolley line in its downtown area with three historic streetcars (and added a fourth from Australia later) in February of 1995. I braved the large crowds (5,000) and hauled my camcorder, and rode the first streetcar to rumble down the streets of Christchurch in 50 years. The tradition went on.
I married Kathy on March 29, 1995, in Christchurch. Dad died in New York five days later. He was asleep. Not in a coma. Asleep. That's what the doctors said. Mom was there. She told him I'd just got married. He nodded. She said she'd be allright, she had money. He nodded again. Then he spat onto the mattress. Mom called for the nurse, and while they changed the sheets, he died.
Wallis Enid Muraca (our girls get Kathy's last name) was born exactly two years and one hour after Kathy and I were married, in Christchurch. By then Dad was a heavy boxful of ashes, parked on his workbench in the basement in Hoboken. Nobody quite knew what to do with the box, so there it sat quietly. Dad was right. He never got to see his grandchildren. I knew I'd have to tell them the stories.
But Wallis is only 22 months old, and her main interests in life are playing with toys, and Teletubbies. I need to practice telling Dad's stories to a young and appreciative audience. And I hadn't been to the Transit Museum in years.
I got out of the Navy last January, and came back to New Jersey. Now I do public relations for the city of Newark. Not my first choice. I wanted to stay in New Zealand. All my friends were there. But some of them came here, specifically the three children of my pal Dave Hornstein. So today I took them to the Transit Museum.
I renewed my family membership (originally taken out in my father's name and mine) and took them down to the trains. I wondered how kids from New Zealand would react to 70-year-old New York rolling stock. Turned out they loved it. The trains were gleaming from restoration, with neat rattan seats, funny turrets in the D-types, and had signs that said they were the Lexington Avenue Super-Express. They liked that stuff. They were interested. They wanted to know what these trains were about.
So I told them, "Well, my grandfather rode the last horsecar trolley in New York, and my father made the last run of the Third Avenue Elevated, and I was on the first train out of Jamaica Center...."
I had a receptive audience.
Wallis will get her turn in about eight years.
David H. Lippman
30-32 Garden Street
Newark NJ 07105
dhlippman@juno.com
What a beautiful story! Back on October 18, 1998, I got to actually ride the D-Type from 57th Street to Coney Island (via Brighton) and back (via Sea Beach). What a grand old lady she is! And she even did 45 MPH for us up the express track on Fourth Avenue. Every time I see something in the subway system that has been lovingly preserved, whether it is a vintage train at the museum (my beloved R-16 #6387) or a newly-restored mosaic (the 1905 cartouches on the Lenox Avenue line or the fine terra-cotta eagles at 33rd Street), I get a good feeling all over - that the past means something and is worth preserving. Too often the past gets swept away in the name of progress. Your experiences are priceless and I thank you for sharing them.
Wayne L Whitehorne
Wayne ... I videotaped this trip. Got the 45 mph under 4th Ave from the rear of the train.
Do you remember what you were wearing that day? I'd like to review the tape and see if I can now recognize you!
--Mark
Black denim jacket and a "N" colored gold golf type shirt, black jeans, black Nike Air Pound sneaks. I have a black Targus bag over my shoulder and had my Rx shades on.
Wayne
Say, Wayne, what pitch would you say those Triplex motors got up to at 45 mph? On the R-1/9s, that would equate to about F# above middle C. One those trains got up to speed, it seems a half-step increase in pitch probably worked out to a 5 mph increase in speed.
#6095C was resonating at EXACTLY F# above middle C during her brief flight up Brooklyn's Fourth Avenue, estimated speed of 45MPH.
I made note of this since you had mentioned bull gear pitches prior to October 18 1998. What a great old train she is! You should hear the air brake music it makes: k-choffffffffffff...pfssssss...and finally (after the doors close) pifst!
Wayne
What a pity that I still haven't ridden a Triplex train! One of these days, Alice, one of these days...
You probably thought I was going to say "BANG ZOOM!!"
I get the impression that the brakes on the Triplex units were different than those on the BMT standards. The standards would give off a "Tcchhhhhh" just as the train came to a full stop, but there was no "hssss" immediately afterwards as on the R-1/9s. I don't remember hearing any air sounds after the doors closed, or before the motorman applied power.
Those assorted air sounds were simply fascinating.
Welcome home friend. I'm glad to see that the cynicism that affects so many of us here hasn't affected you. I too have my memories, although you are most fortunate to have had two fine figures in your life to share them with. If you are interested in doing more than just looking at the vintage rolling stock, E-mail me at ERIK6398@webtv.net
Hey Wayne! 6398 blows the doors off of ol'rusty (6387)
Hello to you , too! Thanks for sharing your story. We look forward to hearing from you regularly.
I knew a gentleman who also remembered horse cars in New York in 1916. He was a close friend of my father's family back in Lithuania, and came to the U. S. back at that time, presumably through Ellis Island. In the process, his surname got changed. We stayed in his house in Paterson for two months in 1967 when we first moved out to Jersey.
My favorite subway memory by far would be the R-10s on the A line; several other Subtalkers share this sentiment. There's nothing like thundering along CPW on one of those trains. The R-32s are a sentimental favorite. I remember them when they were brand new and miss their trademark blue doors.
I also echo everyone's sentiments about your stories. Unfortunately my grandmother who passed away a few years ago was the only one who REALLY shared my enthusisasm of the subways. For many years she lived at Flatbush and Nostrand Aves(and before that just off the Parkside Ave station on the D), and used to take me to Brighton Beach and Coney Island when I young. As I got more and more into subways, I would continually ask her if we could take different lines to Coney Island. At Parkside, hoping on the D(or the M) was the easiest thing to do(but she would ALWAYS allow us to change at Church Ave for an express when many times we'd get the same local back at Brighton Beach). When she moved down to "The Junction," it was probably MUCH easier to take the B44 to the B36 to get to Coney Island, but....
even when she got older, and had extreme difficulties walking..she would patiently board the 3 at Flatbush Ave, we'd ride back to Atlantic Ave, and would make the LONG walk(for her) over to Pacific Street to the B or the N.
Until last summer, I had never taken the F to CI. I was in NY on Subway Series weekend(Go Mets!) so I decided to take the trip. Even though it wasn't the same riding an R44/46(compared to an R32 or 42 on the D!)...I felt she took the trip with me..and was suddenly in the mood for a ham-and-cheese sandwich sliced diagonally(my favorite back then cut in her special way).
What great writing! Have you thought about submitting this story to Passenger Train Journal or The New Electrinc Railway Journal? It makes wonderful reading.
Were you able to ride the last R-9 trip that left Jamaica/168th St in March of 1977?
--Mark
Maybe we need a web site section of personal anecdotes like these...
-dave
You took the words right out of my mouth, Dave. I still remember the two guys on the (LL), one of whom turned to his friend as our train of BMT standards was entering 6th Ave. and hollered, "Hey, Ron! Next stop, Havana!"
Or maybe a "Best of Subtalk" section, with really good essays like this one. Beautiful job, David!
Yesterday I boarded an uptown #6 at Brooklyn Bridge, car #8660. This car's interior has been refurbished with R-62 type grab bars above the seats (eliminating the metal straps) and new poles at the ends of the seats.Also, a new design has been implemented for the steel armrests at the end of the longitudinal seats. The ceiling has been simplified with new panelling and new grey colored paneling above the windows have been installed. I have not heard of this type of rebuild for the redbirds, and apparantly, all other cars in this train were not rebuilt in this manner. Does anybody know if this is a unique car or are other redbirds slated for this refurbishment? With the arrival of the R-142's later this year, I didn't think that any serious consideration would be given to rebuilding these cars again.
I used to notice that one 12 years ago, right after the rebuilding was complete. (The panel above the windows is not simply gray, but stainless steel, and some of the wall panels are stainless steel, as well as the cabs. That was the only car done like that; I don't know why. I used to wish it was on the 2, since it looked so much like a new car, but I brlieve it originally was on the 2, before the R-26-29's were rebuilt and pushed most of the 8600's to the 6 where that have been ever since.
I don't know exactly when #8660's interior was done. I would've thought that it could've been a pilot for the R-62/62A's but they were delivered before the R-28/28 and R-29's were rebuilt. Another thought is that perhaps the TA had entertained the idea of retrofitting all of the R-29's (or even all redbirds). I had forgotten about 8660 as it's been years since I last rode in it.
Prior to rebuilding the 8600's operated on the 1 & 3 lines. These are pretty much the only R-29's that moved to another line after rebuilding.
8860 is still in service with the stainless steel trim.
I think mate 8861 is the same way.
If memory serves, that pair was a prototype for the redbird
rebuild program. It was rejected in favor of the baked enamel
finish.
Back in the mid '80s before the R-42 overhaul program, 8660 was rebuilt with the stainless steel plating over the door panel swing covers as a test to see if it could be done on the other M&K rebuilds.
Why it was done on the R-42s and not older GOHs is a question???
Are the metal straps slowly disappearing from the system? Am I the only one who misses them?
Are the straps disappearing? -- Yes.
Are you the only one who misses them? -- No.
I am also fond of the straps (my favorate types were the ones on the R-10's, R-16's and R-17's).
I guess that people find bars to be more convenient and practical than straps, but subway cars have been doing pretty good for years with the straps . . . I guess nothing lasts forever.
A little something about straps - a few years ago, I went to a large thrift store in the eastern suburbs of Stamford, Ct. It specializes in estate sale surpluses and is fairly well-known in that city. I even remember seeing a brochure of it. On the outside were several rows of olive green poles with the porcelain straps still on that were salvaged from lo-v IRT cars. Unfortunately, I forget the place's name and exact location. If anyone out there knows the place and location, you may want to go, but expect to overpay. Still, where else can you get a subway artifact like this?
I have a strap which I picked up at Cityana Gallery back in 1979. It appears to be a later version; i. e. stainless steel and nor porcelain.
I'll visit NYC on February. I´will want to know if the subways are dangerous. There are very much robberies? How can I to defend?. In what part of subway is convenient to trip (middle?).
have any number of lines more dangerous that oters?. For example, lines 1, y 9 to South Ferry are more dangerous that N, R. I don't Know!.
I think that 1, 9 are dangerous because leave Harlem and Bronx zone, meanwhile, N, R, leave Queens zone.It is the way?.
Excuse the nuisance, I accept suggestions.
Leandro.
It can be difficult to determine which lines/times are safer than others. Consider the recent pushing murder being discussed here. It happened on the N line, which is often thought of as one of the safer lines.
Even so, there are some rough guidelines. The safer lines probably include the N, R, 1/9 and 7, while the more dangerous ones are the A and C in Brooklyn, both ends of the 3, and the Bronx portions of the 4.
I think the answer is the trains are not dangerous anywhere except in the middle of the night. The stations can be dangerous in poor neighborhoods. The poor neighborhoods are in north/east/central Brooklyn L, J/M/Z, A/C, 3; and northern Manhattan/the South Bronx (4, 5, 2, 3, B, D). But I have never felt threatened in any of these places.
The only time I have felt uneasy is during non-rush hour transfers which are not across platforms. I used to use the 1 to A transfer at 168th frequently before the crack epidemic hit. Haven't used it since.
What time is the best to trip in subway?, less dangerous?.
If you have any access to a NYC subway map(on paper, probably) there are some guidelines that are given. If youfollow some links from this site( go toTransfer Station, then to NYC transit related sites. Some of them contain the best times to travel.
In general, Avoid the subway at off-hours(in the afternoon before 3 pm) and especially at night!!!!
Manhattan is generally safer than the outer boroughs(Brooklyn and The Bronx in particular) but if you feel confident, you can explore those areas with some level of security.
Try to ride in the cars with more people and never go to an area where theraren't a good number of people, especially in the complex stations like Times Square/42nd St.
Visit the NYC MTA website at www.mta.ny.us fo rmore information.
Enjoy your trip!
As some of you may have observed I print off items I think are of value to others in my company, one of those is our maint. person. This AM we were talking about premature brake lining failures that are occuring on 1997 Orions V's at one of the other "privates". The mfg. is telling them that "no one else is having that problem". I've told him that a fair number of the SubTalkers are employees at the TA and elsewhere, so I would be happy to post the question & let him know what kind of reply, if any comes back.
So, friends & colleagues please tell me what you can about this.
P.S. You can click on my name in this post to send me a private message or respond anonymous, because we'er just interested in how widespread this problem is & don't want to get anyone in trouble with the suits upstairs !!!
Mr t__:^)
Somebody in MetroCard Central has made the life of us collectors a bit more difficult ...
Last year they sold some space on the back of their cards to NY Univ.
I acquired a card today that has the exact same wording as the old one, B-U-T the words are larger, i.e. it's different card.
P.S. It's been a while since our Token Booth source has previewed us on what's comming out in the near future. If it's not too much trouble, would you be kind enough to do us another favor ?
Mr t__:^)
Which line of subway or train show an interesting landscape?.
The line 7 is a subway or train?.
If anybody know, I hope your answer. Thanks.
The best view from the train is either the F train where it's elevated around downtown Brooklyn. You get a beautiful view of the Manhattan skyline, the Verrazano Bridge, the Statue of Liberty, and other parts of Brooklyn. Also nice is the D train between Sheepshead Bay and Coney Island - you get a nice view of the ocean and the Coney Island amusement park along with cool Russian billboards.
The 7 train is underground in Manhattan and above ground in Queens.
Could you please describe the Buenos Aires system? Tell me about the contrast between the newest line and the oldest line.
When you ask if it's a subway or train, do you mean elevated or outside as opposed to a tunnel?
If so, these are the elevated or outside portions of the subway.
1/9-from Dyckman St. to 242 St.
2-from149 St to 241 St
3-From Sutter Avenue to New Lots Avenue.
4-From 161 St to Woodlawn
5-from after 149 St to Dyre Ave(to Nereid Ave at rush hours via '2')
6-From east of Whitlock Ave to Pelham Bay Park
7-From east of Vernon/Jackson Aves to Willets Point(it becomes subway again after that)
A/S-From after Euclid Ave to Lefferts Blvd/Far Rockaway/Rockaway Park(highly recommended ride!)
B-from 9th Ave to Coney Island
D/Q-from Prospect Park to Coney Island
F/G-from Caroll St to 9th Avenue and then after Church Ave
N-From Queensboro Plaza to Ditmars Ave and from 8th Ave to Coney Island
L-from after Bushwick Ave to Rockaway Parkway
J/Z-from Marcy Ave to 121 St(subway again after that)
M-from Metropolitan Ave to Marcy Ave(for rush hours, from 9th Ave to Bay Parkway on 'B'
All the rest of the time, you will be underground. Hope that helps!
Who know the meaning of the different symbols that figure on subway maps (circle, diamond, square?)?.
A number or letter in a circle simply denotes what line that is.
A square indicates a terminal, or the final stop of the line and a number or letter in a diamond means that the route only runs there during rush hours(6:30-9 am[usually towards Manhattan] and 3pm to 8pm[usually to an outer borough]).
When unsure, ask someone, preferably an MTA employee(they will probably be in uniform).
The NYC Subway Map ("The MAP" has the definitions of the sysmbols on it.
The psoting by Jack spells it out though.
Only a questions:
What it means the circle, diamond and square on subway maps?
How are the most common robberies on subways?
Line number 7 is a subway or train?.
The subway: How many blocks stops the subway or there is a subway station?
What is the line more safe: 1,9 or N,R.?
I accept all type of suggestions, because I'm travelling to New York City on February 6 th., during three days and I want to take advantage
to the maximun the few hours in the City.
In the Central Park are the robbery very frequent?, or not?.
If anybody, answer some of my questions, I will be very, very grateful.
> Only a questions:
> What it means the circle, diamond and square on subway maps?
Diamond: rush hours only.
Circle: Operates outside of rush hours (not necessarily at all times).
Square: Terminal station (end of line).
> How are the most common robberies on subways?
If you mean how common are they, they are fairly rare.
> Line number 7 is a subway or train?.
Huh? A subway is a kind of train. The #7 is subway in Manhattan and the first two stops in Queens (Vernon-Jackson and Hunterspoint Avenues), then elevated the rest of the way, except for the last stop (Main St.) which is subway again.
> The subway: How many blocks stops the subway or there is a subway station?
Look at the map. The distance between stations in central Manhattan varies from 4 blocks to 10 blocks.
> What is the line more safe: 1,9 or N,R.?
Hard to say. I would guess the 1,9. About six years ago I was attacked on the N,R line. But crime is down a lot since then.
> I accept all type of suggestions, because I'm travelling to New York
> City on February 6 th., during
> three days and I want to take advantage
> to the maximun the few hours in the City.
> In the Central Park are the robbery very frequent?, or not?.
> If anybody, answer some of my questions, I will be very, very
> grateful.
Good luck. And practice your English.
Hey Leandro!
You and I will be visiting NYC on the same day! I'm going to be there on the 6th of February as well for my birthday!
Small world,huh?
As for your questions, Central Park is more dangerous at night than the day. I would suggest staying below 72nd St at night when in the park.
WHERE DO YOU LIVE?
I live in Philadelphia, a city about 90 miles south of NYC(the next MAJOR stop south of NYC via Amtrak).
If ever visiting the US again, try Philadelphia(sorry, folks.Gotta plug my hometown).
Though not as big or exciting as NYC in basically every respect, this city has many historical sites and a nice subway system(when riding one of our subways, it mayeven remind you of NYC).
Of course, to most New Yorkers(aswell as the rest of the country), Philly is either another city between NYC and Washington or the town from "Rocky".
Woe is us:)
Philadelphia has Independence Hall and the Liberty Bell, not to mention the first U. S. mint. Can't complain about that.
Speaking of the Liberty Bell, is it still located at the same exhibit area as in 1976, or is it back in Independence Hall now?
The Liberty Bell is still in that glass monstrosity in Independence Park.
Of course you can't touch it any more. People's touching it caused discoloration and is now barred off.
Maybe there was concern that it might crack further. I often wonder what pitch it rang at.
I've only been in Philadelphia once, in 1970, at the old Lithuanian Hall, and can remember PCCs cruising by. Unfortunately, I didn't get to see the Liberty Bell.
Better yet, don't even go to Central Park at night.
But during the day, Central Park is a beautiful place to spend some time and walk around in.
Among my favorite areas of the park:
The very bottom of the park, around 59th thru the 60s, entering from the 5th Avenue (east side) side and walking across the bottom and then up the west side.
The Conservatory Gardens (103rd Street or so and 5th Avenue)
The top of the park, entering at around 103rd Street and Central Park West and walking in a north-western direction -- there is a creek and even a couple of small waterfalls with a few paths that wind around it. If you come up by the ice skating ring near 110th Street, you can walk around the pond over to the east side and back down 5th Avenue to the Conservatory Gardens. Yep - Central Park is a wonderful place to just walk into and wander around.
To get there, take the B or C train to any stop between 59th and 110th Streets (west side), or the #4 or 5 train to 59th Street (Lexington Avenue -- walk 3 blocks west to the park) or 86th Street (Lex - walk 3 blocks to the park). YOu can also take the #6 local to any stop between 59th and 110th (although I wouldn't recommend using any Lexington Avenue stop above 86th and walking to the park -- the Upper East Side east of 5th Avenue and above 90th is a not-so-nice area).
You can also take advantage of the buses: m10 (Central Park West, both directions), the m1, 2, 3, or 4 (Madison Avenue going north -- walk one block west to the park)/(5th Avenue going south -- right next to the park). The m66, 72, 79, 86, and 96 Crosstown buses all operate east-west across the park and take you from the east side to the west (m66 and 72 use the 65th Street transverse, m79 uses the 79th Street transverse, the m86 uses the 86th Street transverse, and the m96 (in addition to limited m106 service) use the 96th Street transverse.
In addition, the m2, 3, and 4 buses also cross the park on the northern end (110th Street ) and the m5 croses the park on the southern end (59th Street).
BTW - M- means 'Manhattan' - all buses based in Manhattan have the M-prefix.
B is Brooklyn
Q is Queens
S is Staten Island
Bx is The Bronx
and
X is Express (double-fare ; $3.00 for most X routes).
I hope you enjoy your stay in New York and hope you enjoy Central Park as much as I always do!!!!!!
Don't neglect the other parks. My favorite is Riverside Park, running along the Hudson River north of 72nd Street. Unfortunately much of the park is not actually along the river but rather along the Henry Hudson Parkway. There are a few points where the park crosses the highway, though. To get there from midtown board the M5 bus at any major street along Sixth Avenue (during the day the M5 makes limited stops, so it doesn't stop every two or three blocks like most other buses). It will take you through Columbus Circle, up Broadway past Lincoln Center, and across 72nd Street to Riverside Drive. It then runs up Riverside Drive, alongside the park, as far as, I believe, 120th Street -- get off anywhere that looks interesting. As with Central Park, you probably want to avoid Riverside Park at night.
Two blocks east of Riverside Drive is Broadway. This section of Broadway isn't the one full of theaters; rather it's the main drag of the Upper West Side, and you might find it interesting. To get back to your hotel, take the 1 or 9 train from any station on Broadway to 59th Street-Columbus Circle, follow signs to the 57th Street exit, and walk a block and a half east. Or take the M104 bus, which follows the same route as the 1/9 but above ground. (If you're on Broadway north of 110th Street, you can also take the M4 bus, which crosses at the north end of Central Park and runs down Fifth Avenue along the east edge of the park.)
Incidentally, when I was very young my parents would occasionally treat me to a ride on the M5, which was still running double-deckers at the time (I think it was the only one left -- my parents claimed it was because of the traffic lights).
Leandro, you have been watching to much TV !!!!
I live in England and come over to New York once a year for vacation.
CRIME is not everywhere, the city is safe for visitors but you should observe a few common sense tips and be "streetwise". After hours travel in the centre car with the conductor and wait on the platform in the signposted "off hours waiting area".
As a tourist I feel safer in New York than I do in some parts of my own country!!!!
Also get a Metrocard, this saves having to purchase tokens and "display your money" every time you want to use the subways or buses.
A circle= All trains stop
A diamond= Rush hour only service (in to town am from town pm)
a square = a terminus
the no.7 train is a subway and offers great views of Manhattan and also goes to Shea stadium (LETS GO METS!)
.
Enjoy your stay in the Big Apple you will find most Transit authority staff willing to help you, I have only praise for the men/women who keep New York moving.
Rob Morel
London
United Kingdom
Do you know where you'll be staying on Sat.Feb 6 - perhaps I can come into town and show you around a bit.
Feel free to e-mail me
Wayne
BTW-the "Z" wears a circle sign but really should wear a diamond since it only shows up during rush hour.
does anybody know if the b line runs express in bklyn on weekends and does it stop at dekalb ave i have to work this weekend and i have to adjust my travel time accordingly i usually ride it on weekdays boarding at 36th st. station around 610am and it is usually pretty reliable..the trains have been pretty clean considering the bad press it had lately .....thanks
The train runs express in Brooklyn and Manhattan. It ends at 57th street and 6th ave.
No B train worth its salt EVER shows its orange mug at DeKalb Avenue. Get off at Pacific Street and hop on an "N" or an "R".
Wayne
Wayne- sorry! but they do sometimes stop at DeKalb- late evenings when they run Local on 4th Ave in Brooklyn they do stop at DeKalb!
Does anyone know the answer to the question originally asked but not yet answered: does the B train stop at De Kalb Ave. on weekends?
Mike Rothenberg
No, the B train does not stop at DeKalb Ave anytime.
Mike: I'm working from the NYCT B train timetable issued March 1998.
Sat and Sun service,northbound trains leaving Coney Is between 730p and 1130p run lcl in Bklyn and stop at Dekalb.Southbound leaving 57 St;Sat 615a-655a,Sun 634a-734a stop at Dekalb and run lcl in Bklyn.
Otherwise almost all B's skip DK>
Regards,Redbird
Do you think that information will appear on maps? I tend to doubt that.
Steve: I think you're right.The combining of the subway and commuter rail maps was not a good idea unless it was planned as a special edition. The service guide part of the map is arranged in a very confusing format. For instance,a train is listed as a Nassau St Exp (local service) . Is it an exp or a lcl? I would like to see the reverse side of the map carry more detailed info about the routes, such as the #2,4,5 rush hour service to New Lots, the Lenox Shuttle trains to 148 St in the late weekend pm and early Sunday am.The maps are issued often enough that this material could be updated.
Regards,Redbird
When I worked on the B line occassionally when I was a new Train Operator, the B would stop at Dekalb ave occassionally. Here are the general times: Early A.M hours,northbound and southbound(6:00a.m for example) probably if there is no Q service yet.P.M hours ,Manhattan bound platform only(7:30p.m- time when B starts running as a shuttle to 36st).The reason probably being worktrains on the express track and by-pass tracksbetween 36st and north of DeKalb aves.Also, they turn R train lay-ups on F4 track north of 36st. In addition, they probably want two services going into DeKalb ave,Manhattan bound,for people going into N.Y.C for the evening(6 ave service that is)
I was wondering if any MTA employees could help me out-
I need to find out how far away from a subway entrance is a vendor allowed to sell. This relates to my job, and it would also be helpful if anybody had a phone number I could call to combat illegal vending near the subway.
Thanks very much!
P.S. You can reply to me personally at the above e-mail address if you would like.
Since I work in the Downtown Brookyn area, I often go to the Transit Museum gift shop to browse and do some reading.
One of the newest additions there is their line of "Official Subway clothing". This includes T-shirts with the route and/or number logos; a denim-type shirt with buttons made from genuine decommissioned subway tokens; ball caps and another set of T-shirts with images of some old-time bus and subway ads. The thing that ticks me off is that most of the clothes only go up to size L (large). I don't know about you guys, but I'm a 2XL and other fans I know my age need sizes of at least 1xL. I registered my complaint at the shops counter, but suspect that that was like whistling in the breeze.
Anyhow I'm just curious to know if anyone else has any similar complaints about the TA Museum gift shop.
cya Doug aka BMTman
They've had XL and XXL ($5 premium on XXL) in the past, perhaps they've just been sold out.
-Hank
I wish they sold the bus depot stickers.
Me too....they used too...I have an old Yukon sticker and an ENY Base Shop sticker.....can't tell you the number of times I've requested it...
-Hank
Just a little note to all. North of the Atlantic ave station is a series of switches. They enable the uptown local to cross over all eight tracks to the downtown local side. All these switches were done over in the last year by the Track Construction Department of the T.A. It is the only place in the entire system with this arrangement of slip switches. There is also a connection from the northbound #2 track at the north end of the platform to the L.I.R.R . Supposeidly for August Belmont to take his private train out to Long Island.
August Belmont had that connection to the LIRR put in specifically so he could go to Belmont Park on his private subway car, the Mineola. No revenue runs were ever made over that connection. Is the physical track connection still there? I heard it was long gone.
The tracks are no longer there. They put a wall up between the LIRR tracks and the platform. The space there is used for storage of materials.
You can still see the remnant of the spur -- from the northbound 2/3 track if you ride in the first car. It looks like a resisted wall that curves out from the tunnel wall. If my thinking is right, that trackage would have run into the #1 or #2 track of the LIRR.
I believe the tracks had been removed as long ago as the early 1930s.
Doug
Just to be clear on this, there is no actual track connection between the LIRR and the IRT at Atlantic Av anymore. The remains of the inbound conection from the LIRR to the IRT can still be seen at the north end of the northbound lcl platform. The only evidence of the outbound connection from the IRT to the LIRR is the off center roof columns near the south end of the center platform.
Regards,Redbird
I always thought there was 4 tracks at the Atlantic Av IRT. There is also the Nevins St spur, which would make it 5 tracks wide at that point.
What do they need that arrangement of switches for?
If they want to turn an Uptown (inbound) local at Atlantic Av, they send the train in to the Nevins St spur. The Train Operator changes ends and then proceeds Downtown (outbound).
I'm looking for the sticker "Don't Lean on Doors" they used to use in the subway. The shop had a whole box of them but I stupidly only got one. If anybody knows where I can get some, please let me know!
Thanks!
I understand how you all feel as I agree they're badly stocked. The transit museum in Philadelphia has a far superior selection of books, videos, and even jewelry such as tie pins. Around 1989, I bought a $4.00 set of a tie clip and cufflinks from our transit museum gift shop with Kawasaki IRT cars on them. I haven't seen them since.
The store employees aren't transit buffs like us. That may be why our concerns go in one ear and out the other with them. My suggestion is to write your concerns to Gabrielle Shubert, the director of the museum, or in the guest book. DougBMT - you're so right over the lack of 2XL shirts. The museum could make lots more money if they'd stock adult sizes. Let's wait patiently and see.
$4.00 for a tie clip AND cufflinks? That's pretty good, considering I paid quite a bit more for my token cufflinks. I think they're gold-plated, except for the tokens themselves.
I wouldn't trade these $4.00 cufflinks and tie clip for anything except for something that has pre-WW2 subway stock, but I neglected to mention that the clip has bent once before and I righted it, so it requires TLC. One of the cufflinks broke and I had to give it a heavy epoxying. As you can probably conclude, the quality left a lot to be desired. Even though I didn't get a bargain, it's something a subway buff would treasure, as I will forever.
I agree with the people writing responses to this message, it wouldn't cost the MTA that much to make up some extras of stickers that they have laying around the depots. Another interesting idea would be if they started selling actual train photos, Depot hats might be an interesting idea to sell also, but that is a long shot. If anyone has been in any TA building, you would notice some very good photography on the walls. I guess the MTA doesn't know that there is actually a market for this type of thing
A friend of mine from NEW JERSEY sends me videos of the subway under N.Y,C. Occasionally he videotapes rats eating food thrown on the tracks As I live on the west coast of CANADA and have not had the opportunity to travel your wonderful system I would appreciate anyones observations on the the problem of rats in the subway
I'm not sure it's a problem, but rats are part of subway life. We do put down poison. Rats also need water. And there is plenty of water dripping into the subway because we have a lot of real estate. If I'm ever walking on the tracks, I always make sure my keys are jingling so the noise will set them running. Amusing subway true story: a few weeks ago, a Manhattan bound B train, around 6:30 PM, was delayed at 79 St. due to a rat in one of the cars. A policeman made noise with his nightstick to scare him out.
more importantly, do the rats pay full fare?
How big was the rat on that B train? Maybe he was expecting slant R-40s and wasn't thrilled about being on R-68s.
Rat's don't just plague the TA's revenue facilities -- its employees work in rat holes as well. When I was in Materials Management, we worked in the former Howard Clothes building, which was partially abandoned, at the foot of the Manhattan Bridge. One day, the garbage men showed up to collect the garbage from the bay, and part of the ceiling collapsed. Hundreds of rats came tumbling down on them, then went running off through the rest of Brooklyn. These guys were so terrified, they refused to remove garbage from the loading bay anymore, so TA workers had to move it to the street.
Rats would sometimes run through the office floors, but only during a fire. That's how we could tell the infrequent fires from the frequent false alarms.
I saw a HUGE IV.Rattus Norwegicus sitting blithely on the third-rail cover at East-Broadway not too long ago. When the "F" train came in he scurried off. This rat was as big as my cat Sylvester.
Wayne
At 23st, on the F ,there are rats on the platform frequently.
Sssufferin' sssuccotash!!
Our former next door neighbors had a black cat with a white triangular patch just below its collar, only its name wasn't Sylvester.
And the old lady on the other side had a canary.
Once while on my way to Brooklyn via the L to Lorimer St, transfering to Metropolitan Av (G), I was standing at the platform at Metropolitan I heard some noise. I was a trash bag moving full of rats. You could see their heads and tails moving around the bag (some of which were BIG). There had to be at least 50+ of them since they were coming out of the bag and running under a closed off constuction site at the end station under the stairway. A guy standing at the platform told me that that was nothing. According to him, one day while on his way to work with the usual morning rush, the group that was just transferring from the G to the L was going down the stairs. All of a sudden, the front of the group stopped and went the back up the stairs while some women started yelling. He figured that someone got shot or stobbed but it really was a shockawave of rats coming down the platform. That was truly digusting when I heard that.
Why are trash bags kept in stations? Those same bags were there on my return trip a day later.
Can it be concluded that BMT and IND lines have worse porblems with rats (bigger and more common) then IRT Manhatten lines. Ive seen small rats on the 1,2,3, 9 lines in Manhatten but no where as common as on the Brooklyn G and L lines. I also noticed that a lot of more signs for posion control substances have been posted on the F,G,L lines in Brooklyn and Queens then in Manhatten. Is this just me?
Thanks!
Thomas
I used to work on the lower level of Grand Central Terminal and the rats down there were so big we didn't call an exterminator we sent for the SWAT team.Actually many of the rats,especially down on the "Burma Road"had more seniority than some of the railroad workers.
Okay - what's the 'Burma Road'?
Steve: There were originally two "trucking subways" running crosswise under the lower level of GCT.One is the 43 Street Trucking Subway and the other is the 45 Street Trucking Subway. Trucking in this case refers to baggage trucks. The 43 Street Subway was unofficially renamed the Burma Road due to the large steam pipes in the subway which case very hot and humid conditions. The name was applied by railroad workers returning from the Asian Theatre of Operations (ATO)during World War II.
Regards,Redbird
Once when waiting on a train at GCT, I got some entertainment from watching a rat scaling a smooth surface on the adjacent platform. Very persistent critter!
In reality the Subway is a perfect environment for rats. They have food, water, places to hide and sleep, reasonable warmth and few enemies (mostly car wheels). Thus they thrive and become part of the culture of the subway.
[In reality the Subway is a perfect environment for rats. They have food, water, places to hide and sleep, reasonable warmth and few enemies (mostly car wheels). Thus they thrive and become part of the culture of the subway.]
What's remarkable about rats is that they can thrive in just about any environment. Unlike almost any other mammals (the two-legged version among them), rats can live in any of the Earth's climates including the Arctic, jungles, barren mountainsides, and deserts. They can eat anything (including but not limited to each other), reproduce at a dizzying rate, climb sheer walls, graw through lead pipes and concrete blocks ... come to think of it, when we see rats on the subway, our attitudes should not be revulsion, but rather respect!
Don't forget that they are disease carriers. For those of us with a Historical bent, remember the Black Death??
(Hint to those with WayBack machines: Avoid the Dark Ages!)
[Don't forget that they are disease carriers. For those of us with a Historical bent, remember the Black Death??]
You are right ... but note that rats, almost alone among mammals, have virtually never been found to carry rabies, the deadliest animal-borne disease of all.
I have seen cats in tunnels, but never in a subway tunnel. Anyone ever seen a cat in the subway?
I think rats may be a bit too big and nasty for most cats. Still, seems like there's a lot of meals down there.
[I have seen cats in tunnels, but never in a subway tunnel. Anyone ever seen a cat in the subway?]
Subway tunnels probably are too wet for a cat's liking.
ive sen a lot of rats lately especially on the 1/9 2/3 line at the chambers st sta some of them are as big as cats...they run all over the track area even though the signs are up that they (the ta) laid down poison..
The Pelham 1-2-3 novel speaks of cats living in the abandoned trackways leading to Grand Central Tower, where the mainline turned west onto 42nd St.
I've never seen them, but once in a while I hear one that somehow got trapped in the tunnel at my station.
Cats can easily bring down a cottontail rabbit (I know, our cats out in Montana used to always bring them home). So a NYC subway rat, which I would say is about 1/3 the size of rabbit, would be no problem for a cat.
There are some universal human traits - and one them, germane to this thread, is overestimation of rat size. Cat-sized rats are a matter of perception rather than reality. In fact, the largest rats do not much exceed one pound. Why are there so many reports of giant rats? Partly, this may be due to the illusion of size resulting from the long tail. But for the most part, I attribute it to the general feeling of revulsion that rats produce.
Several years ago our (BSM) Track Super was doing some spot tamping on the line. He set his jack under a tie where there was an outside "hole" in the ballast. As he jacked, he heard a distinct "squeak". He checked his jack, found nothing out of order and continued his work. When he went to remove the jack, there was something stuck to the foot. The something was a rat, the back of which looked like an ordinary rat's a**. The front of the rat, however was now rather bloody, and flat - in the exact shape of the jack foot.
The track crew once discoved a good sized rat in the bottom of a 55 gallon drum. It got in, but couldn't get out. (Which was somewhat strange - rats are pretty good jumpers.) Being the kind-hearted sadist that most track guys are, they decided to put the rat "out of it's misery". Thus followed a period of assorted shots from a pellet gun, a coulple of blasts from a cutting torch, and other assorted mayhem, one the track guys finally got an asphalt tamper and forcibly dispatched the rat.
This was considered great fun. I guess you had to be there.
(These stories releated during Dispatcher's Office "bull sessions".)
Pete: You may have a point. The rats in the subway system are no where as dangerous as the alligators in the sewer system.
Unlike reptiles, rats eventually stop growing. Like other rodents, they multiply pretty fast.
There are no alligators in New York's sewers. Maybe down south, but not in New York. Even if there were, the low water temperature would keep their metabolism on the slow side.
Pete: Isn't it true though that the demolition of the 6 Avenue El was started by a forty foot gorilla????
Let's just say it was a foreshadowing of things to come. King Kong came out in 1933; the 6th Ave. el was dismantled in 1939.
Rats are part of urban/suburban life. I live about 50 miles from NYC. Recently, some new houses were built in my area. Subbenly, I had a dozen rats feeding from my bird feeders in my backyard because their habitat was disturbed.
In the subway, most of us who frequent the tunnels, expect to see rats and are not shocked by them. They usually yield to us and steer clear. Of course there is the exception like the one I encountered behind the Parsons/Archer station this morning. I was going from the cleaner facility to the platform and had to pass the area where the trash is stored when I encountered what looked like a brown furry
R-9. It would not move so I did. I crossed the tracks and we both went about our business.
Some of those rats can get pretty big. A friend of ours encountered one such critter once while working in an elevator shaft. Scared the wits out of him.
I remember driving out of Jamaica yard one night,when I saw this huge rat that looked like a cat.It was going towards a Co-op establishment across the street from the yard.It had a skinny tail.That's how I knew it was a rat.
Might have been a possum. They have many around Willow Lake. There are also some very large rats around jamaica Yard too...
I'd say rat infestation is a pretty big problem where MTA crews store garbage that's been collected from the trash baskets on the platfrom until the refuse train rolls in late at night. The garbage bags that are filled up are stored (usually) in a room or gated off area on the platfrom. One evening while waiting for an A train at 42nd Street, I heard a lot of squeaking and scurrying from behind a locked gate at the end of the platfrom. Investigating from a safe distance I saw at least a dozen or so rats happily muching away in a pile of trashbags waiting for pickup.
Rats tend to stay away from humans and are easily scared off by loud or sudden noises and will congeregate in isolated areas that contain a lot of food or trash debris. A busy subway platfrom will be rat free while an isolated or abandonded passegway where there's a lot trash lying about will not. Likewise you'll sometimes see rats cavorting under the platform and on the tracks looking for food.
In addition to diseases born from ticks and flea infested rats, there's also the problem of rabies which is a serious health hazard.
[In addition to diseases born from ticks and flea infested rats, there's also the problem of rabies which is a serious health hazard.]
As I mentioned elsewhere, rats have virtually never been found to carry rabies.
About 7 years ago I went to the Transit Museum's auction. as well as auctioning off some items including turnstyles, a bus, and even a subway car. They also had items for sale. I bought an old fare box (the one with the clear dome to see the change drop). I also bought train decals "do not hold doors","no riding between cars", "MTA" logos, and fare box stickers. They were selling alot of transit related items such as metal station signs, old TA keys, etc.. Anyone know when there will be another one? Or when was the last one?
***BONUS QUESTION: Is there anywhere to buy a old subway turnstyle, wooden slam gate, or iron railings? I asked a worker installing the new turnstyles who said that the TA sells them to Yankee, Shea, and other stadiums. Who do I speak too, that will not think I am crazy, just a buff..
Thanks again,
"Joe Buff"
I tried to get some too but my search turned up nothing.
I' ll visit NYC on February 7 th. and I'll arrive at Newark Airport (I believe that is in New Jersey City).
How many minutes there is from Newark Airport to 57 st. and 7 st., in Manhattan?.
I'll want information with prices of taxis, limusine, shuttle and How is the tramit when I arrive at airport? Where must I go?. What is more convenient?
What about Newark Airport?
Please, if anybody know, report me.
Excuse me for my english that is not very well.
You can get a taxi to midtown Manhattan for about $20 from Newark.
Someone on this site site may be able to tell you exactly how to get to the nearest PATH station, which doesn't cost nearly as much.
Via PATH(a type of commuter subway that runs between NYC and points in New Jersey across the Hudson River) you can travel to either the World Trade Center downtown or to the terminal at 33rd and 6th Avenue. From there, you can connect to the N/R and ride a Queens-bound train to 57th St/7th Ave.
There is a subway map available on this site and at the MTA site at www.mta.nyc.ny.us.
One question short more:
20 dollars by person, because we are 4 person with 2 suitcases. -the taxi drivers take 4 people.
Theks very much.
Leandro,
No, $20 for the trip. Tip is about 15% of that, or $3. Enjoy!
By the way, since 57th St and 7th Av is the location of the famous Carnegie Hall, you might appreciate an ancient joke on that subject. If you were to ask, "How do I get to Carnegie Hall?", the response would be "Practice!".
Bob Sklar
Bob,
23 dollars by person (in taxi), because we are 4 person with 2 suitcases. -the taxi drivers take 4 people.
Where is the plattform?
How many minutes the trip is?
How many millas the trip is?
Where do you suggest that I start to go, arriving on sunday?
Thanks very much.
The Port Authority (which operates the airport) has a full list of bus services on its web site: http://www.panynj.gov/aviation/egtsmain.HTM - Ground Transportation
The Newark Airport main web page is http://www.panynj.gov/aviation/ewrframe.HTM - Newark Airport
To go from Newark Airport to a hotel on 57th St. I'd suggest using the Gray Line Air Shuttle (http://www.graylinenewyork.com) which is $14 per person and will deliver you right to the door of your hotel. You can make arrangements at the Ground Transportation counters in the airport terminals. (In your case this will be Terminal B-International Arrivals. Ground Transportation is on the arrivals level once you pass thru Immigration and Customs.)
Your other alternative is a taxi which will run you probably $50. (I think someone said it was around $20 but that's wrong-- it's $35 to my house 5 miles away in New Jersey. To go to the city takes 2-3x as long and you have to pay the tunnel toll.) A taxi is not going to fit 4 people w/ luggage comfortably unless some of those people are children.
-Dave
from www.nydailynews.com
The long-awaited MetroCard vending machines are set to debut this month — marking the first step in what could be the eventual elimination of token booths.
The ATM-like dispensers will accept cash, credit cards and debit cards. But the machines will give no more than $5 change — and the single-ride cards they issue will be good for just two hours, the Daily News has learned.
Transit Authority officials yesterday remained mum on the coming of the vending machines, which would represent a major change in the way millions of commuters use the world's largest subway system.
The machines will debut Jan. 25 at the 59th St./Columbus Circle and 68th St./Lexington Ave. stations. The TA plans to install 1,000 machines systemwide, starting this spring.
The agency's long-term plan is to replace traditional token booths with the machines at most stations, while transforming token booth clerks into station attendants, who would give directions and otherwise aid passengers.
Officials have said the token could be eliminated by 2001, but they stressed no decision has been made.
Here's how the new vending machines work:
Using an on-screen keypad, riders can recharge an old card by inserting it into a slot and choosing an amount; get a new one; or buy a $17 weekly, $63 monthly or $4 daily MetroCard pass.
The machine gives a receipt — but it will not sell tokens.
Instead, straphangers who want to purchase a $1.50 ride will be offered paper MetroCards that must be used within two hours of purchase.
Transit activists don't like the sound of that. "Tokens don't expire, and this card will, and the token's good for years and the card's good for two hours," said Joe Rappaport, coordinator for the Straphangers Campaign. "It seems like a recipe for long lines at the automated vending machines and no relief for straphangers."
Also, the machines will dispense no more than $5 in change for any transaction — meaning, for instance, that riders can't buy a $4 day pass with a $20 bill.
Sources said the TA is limiting the amount of change so that people don't use the machines to break large bills.
Meanwhile, officials said they are still reviewing whether to change the policy that prevents passengers who have unlimited MetroCard passes from using the card more than once every 18 minutes.
Original Publication Date: 01/07/1999
we are not going away anytime soon. First of all- even with 1000 machines there are 468 stations. the stations will need at least 2 machines per station- many will need at least 4 (due to no crossunder or crossover.) Next- stations like Times Square,Grand Central, etc. will need at least 2 per entrance. Next point- look at banks. ATMs have been here since the 1970s and people still use human tellers. The humans are still in the banks. Finally- I remeber the first generation of token machines when they sold for 15 cents. The machines always ate your money.
The papers are famous for not telling the whole story.
I for one am looking forward to the machines, but not due to the human vs. machine factor. It's the credit/debit card vs. cash factor.
We just don't carry much cash anymore, its a pain and (despite the lower crime rate) a risk. Our paychecks go into checking automatically, and all our bills (except the city water bill) come out of checking automatically, including the full balance of the credit card bill. The credit card pays for just about everything, including gasoline, at point of sale terminals. We get a record of everything except petty cash purchases, to review our budget. The TA is one of the few cash hassles left. It will be great to just swipe a card and get a monthly Metrocard, and a receipt. My wife's card is running out right now, and I'm going to have to go get another $60 to buy her a new one.
On the other hand, changing banks or credit cards would be tough for us, since everything is linked to everything else, and the year 2000 could be an SOB.
Chicago has had Transit Card vending machines for some time now. The machines unfortunately don't take credit or debit cards, only money. And you're right about how many machines a station has to have.
But the CTA **has** sucessfully disconnected station agents from the handling of money. You can buy Transit Cards only from the vending machines (or from off-site vendors, mainly the big supermarket chains, Dominicks and Jewel/Osco) and get change from a change machine or from the concessionaire if the station has a concession stand. The station agents help people operate the vending machines and tell people how to get where they're going -- I believe the station agents are now called "customer service representatives" -- but they no longer handle the CTA's money in any way, shape, or form. So, in a sense, you're right that you're "not going away any time soon".
John sounds to me like YOUR suits have been talking to OUR suits. Who said the MetroCard was invented here, wasn't me ;-)
Mr t__:^)
I need to rephrase question #5, as the wording appears to be misleading. The answers will be posted in a few days; meanwhile, here's what question #5 should say:
5. At one time, the R-10s and R-16s provided service on the same two routes at the same time. In other words, there were two routes which had both R-10s and R-16s assigned to them at the same time. At the risk of making it a dead giveaway, here's another clue: one of the routes was on the IND; the other on the BMT. Name these two routes.
Sorry for the confusion.
The A and the QJ.
-Hank
Hi Guys,
I have a collection of rail transit videos -- the very best being a tape entitled "Trolley -- The Car That Built Our Cities." Perhaps, you have a copy. This video was produced by a company called Gloria Transit Mundi which I do not believe is still in business. The tape is very professionally done and features a rich mixture of historical and comparatively recent footage along with very informative narration. Can anyone recommend a video or vidoes that may be comparable to this landmark presentation. Thanks so much.
LP from Laguna
Transit Gloria Mundi is very much in business. I know the owner very well. Splendid gentleman, knows the transit world very well, and is a first class camerman/director/producer.
He lives in Baltimore, and visits us at BSM quite often.
You might write to them at 6 East 27th Street, Baltimore, MD 21218
To Dan Lawrence,
Thanks for the information about Transit Gloria Mundi.
LP from Laguna
I don't remember where was the place that John Lennon death in New York.
Somebody Knows?
Sounds like you need a comprehensive travel guide, Leandro.
I'm no Beatles fan, but if I recall he was shot in front of his apartment at the Dakota on 1 W. 72nd St. There is a memorial to him in Strawberry Fields in Central Park across the street.
To get there via subway, use the uptown B(any time except nights) or C to 72nd St and Central Park West(which is 8th Avenue above 59th St.)
Hi,
We all appreciate your interest I'm sure but this isn't the place to be asking generic tourist questions. Please try to keep on the topic.
Thanks,
Dave
If you remember there where just Blue MetroCards. Then came Gold. The the free tranfers. Then the buy 11 rides for the price of 10. Then the fun pass. And now they have MetroCard phone cards. What are in the furtue for the MetroCard? Will it just end up to be an all in one thing?
I've never seen the MetroCard phone cards - where can you get them?
I saw the ad for them on the buses. their caust 25 dollers.
Eventually they'll be replaced by EZ-PASS
Dought that ... the TBTA & TA don't like each other, so can't see them collecting money for each other ... UNLESS George makes a SUPER AGENCY ... I hope not 'cause the TA is too big already. What they need is more small "private" companies that are motivated to make "service" the number one priority :-) And I know just the model that they can use He He He :-)
Mr t__:^)
Looking over the Long Island Schedules which I collected on my recent trip, I noticed that on the City Terminal Zone schedule there is listed a 3:24 train from Long Island City to Jamaica. Separately there is a 3:40 train from Hunters Point Av. to Jamaica. Both are listed as arriving at Jamaica at 3:57. A train for Port Jefferson at 4:00 is the only eastbound diesel train departing Jamaica after 3:57 and before the next arrival from Hunters Point Av. All other trains at Jamaica during this period originate at either Penn Sta. or Flatbush Av. My question is:
Do we have a misprint on the schedule (Its possible, there are duplicate train numbers on the Montauk Schedule) meaning that the LIC train also stops at HPA (one train not two)?
Or is the run from HPA a shuttle run with MU cars? (I threw this one out because HPA shows up on the 4:00 PJ Schedule without a J note)
Or does the LIC train actually arrive Jamaica earlier and depart as the 3:50 to Oyster Bay?
Or a diesel shuttle LIC to JAM (would be wasteful since it is a long route with no intermediate stops anymore)?
The City Terminal Zone schedule is the only one where the actual trains are listed, not just departure times from each location.
Gerry
The trains are one and the same. The train leaves LIC at 3:24, HPA at 3:40 and arrives Jamaica at 3:57. Trains from LIC can reach Jamaica either via the old Penny Bridge routing or by connecting with the main line at Hunterspoint Ave.
I saw an episode of Taxicab Confessions not too long ago, & a man who must've been some sort of detective (he said he was, but you never know) got into a cab & started talking of an incident where a man was killed as he was wedged between the train & a platform itself. In all my time living in NY, I don't recall something like that happening. I've heard of people getting pushed in front of trains(like that poor lady from Fredonia) or even beging electrocuted on the 3rd rail.
So has there ever been an incident when a person was pinned between the train & the platrorm? Or is that an urban legend?
It was the plot of an episode of "Homicide: Life on the Street" a season or two ago. Mostly urban legend. Trust me, you are most definitely not going to be able to be wedged in between train and platform-- at most, maybe your foot/leg. Torso, no way. Unless you are in London and not minding the gap. :-)
Dave, you must have missed the extensive thread we had on this subject a few months back. It is definitely an 'Urban Legend'. I witnessed 2 such incidents in my years as a road Car Inspector. I can also introduce you to a friend of mine, also an ex-Road Car Inspector who was given a commendation from Mayor Koch when he actually helped extract one such person alive. The person ended up a quadrepalegic and my friend says he will never do anyone that 'favor' again...
Dave, you must have missed the extensive thread we had on this subject a few months back. It is definitely an 'Urban Legend'. I witnessed 2 such incidents in my years as a road Car Inspector. I can also introduce you to a friend of mine, also an ex-Road Car Inspector who was given a commendation from Mayor Koch when he actually helped extract one such person alive. The person ended up a quadrepalegic and my friend says he will never do anyone that 'favor' again...By the way, the TA refers to such incidents (unofficially)as 'Space Cases.
Actually, the story was based on the episode of Taxicab Confessions.
-Hank
There has been such incidents. They are called "space cases". This is a term used by the former NYC Transit Police and the N.Y.P.D. These incidents happens when a person is caught between the train and the platform. As the train moves the body is turned. The body becomes wedged in the 3 inch gap between the train and platform. There is no immediate death because the blood is still circulating in the upper half ot the body (same theory as EMS uses when a patient loses alot of blood. They place "mass trousers" or inflatable pants to keep the blood circulating in the vital organs). Police officers are trained (and have done) to speak to the person, get the facts of the incident, get notifications for family, and any last words or requestes. This is called a "dying declaration". Try to explain to a person who is living that as soon as Emergency Service puts air bags between the platform and car he will "bleed out" and die. If you want to see real life, walk in my shoes...
Just for the record, they're called 'M.A.S.T. Trousers', and they inflate to keep blood flow above the waste. They're also used to immobilize a patient and as an emergency splint. I don't know what the initials stand for.
-Hank
M.A.S.T. = Military Anti-Shock Trousers
Does anyone remember these old cars? In the late 1940s surviving cars in the 200,600,700,900,1200,1300 & 1400 series were still in revenue service. The 700s were used exclusively as third rail ice scrappers but the rest were still used in passenger service if only in rush hours. The 200 series were trailer cars but all others had motors. One of the nicest rush hour runs was between Bridge-Jay ST and 111th St on the Jamaica line. The 600s,900s,1200s & 1400s could be mixed together but the 1300s were always in separate trains with an occasional 200 mixed in with them. Does anyone out there know why? I think the Last-Lex on Oct.13th,1950 ended the careers of all of them except for the 1300s which ran for more years on the Myrtle Ave Line. Why couldn't the 1300s run in trains with the others?
I'm sure some of my colleagues out there are familiar with Passenger Train Journal Magazine. PTJ published a Commuter Rail Annual in 1994. They also published a Light Rail User's Guide in 1992,1993 and 1994. Does anyone know if there are more recent editions of these annuals?I have not seen PTJ on the newstands lately. Thanks again for the help.
Redbird
Passenger Train Journal folded two years ago. The publisher, Pentrex, is still in pusiness as far as I know, putting out Rail News and Vintage Rails magazines. However, the light rail annuals (and the one-shot equivalent publication for commuter rail) seem to have died with PTJ. Too bad!
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Thanks for the info. I seem to recall that about 1994 or 95 PTJ became much less of a general interest rail magazine and more like a bland copy of one of those airline magazine,all show,very litle substance.
Regards,Redbird
I have two questions:
a) Can anyone refer me to stores or sites that carry current or vintage subway art?
b)I'm also interested in retrieving a photograph (online or otherwise) of an IRT car with the sign "Flatbush Avenue--Brooklyn"...to go with the sign I just bought at an auction...I'd appreciate any information you could provide to me on this!
What does your sign say?
Chances are it's a metal plate with the destination stenciled on it. The only prewar IRT cars which had cloth rollsigns of any kind were the World's Fair Lo-Vs, and then they were located on the front bulkhead at the motorman's end. Metal plates were still used on the car sides.
Has anyone noticed the computerized messages in the GCT subways saying "let the people off the train first, Please...." While I find this to be a good idea, the tone of the voices are rather irritating and rude, and are at a louder volume than necessary. Does anyone agree?
This Morning I boarded an uptown E train at WTC to go to Penn Station and pick up photo supplies. At Canal St, I changed to the A (R38) which was waiting directly across the platform. I boarded the last car (being that itr was closest to where I needed to be when I got off) and took a position at the storm door. While staring out the storm door, I noticed that the chains and guards were dangling off the end, and not secured in front of the door. I figured that the train had been cut at some point in the morning. Stupidly (because it just was) I gave the handle of the door a quick pull. Anyone care to guess what happened?
By this time, we were passing through the 23st station; being the train was pretty crowded, it made no sense to me to squeeze my way 5 cars up to the conductors position. So at 34st, I exited the train, and ran down the platform, waving franticly to the conductor. When I got to him, (out of breath) I explained about the storm door, he spoke to the motorman over the IC, and then left the cab to go to the rear of the train to lock the door (I did recieve a Thank You). But the passengers who had seen me run the 1/2 length of the platform decided I was of no help to them, and as I walked to the 33st exit, iw as cursed at, and somebody called me an 'interloper', among other names. No one outside of the rear car even knew what I had done!
For that, I'll keep my mouth shut next time, and let some kid fall off the train.
-Hank
Hank, what you did was and is a smart move. For the people who cursed at you and called you a interloper, there is a saying that i found and is fitting for this ''Illegitimus Non Carborundum Est.'' which means in english, ''Don't let the Bas...ds grind you down.''
Charlie Muller of the Bronx.
I agree. nice work!!!
Maybe they'd(crowd of unappreciatives)fallen out of the door, they'd have a better understanding for someone who tries to do something good for a change.
It seems these days it isn't worth it trying to help people.
As my mother used to say, "you always end up with a big, fat boot in your backside".
Hank, The worst thing you could do is to look the other way the next time ! Just think of how you would feel if you read of this guy/gail who was killed because they fell out the back of that train !!!
Maybe one of our subway Supt friends will post how you could report this to TA mngt, so the crew also gets a little official thank you.
At this depot they do a little something for the driver when a customer writes us about an extra kindness by one of them. This week I said congradulations to Roger & Dominick (I had no idea what eather had done but saw their photo in our newsletter). Roger said that all he did was jump on the back stairs to try & get the Wheel Chair lift to work, it did & the cutomer was able to get on board.
Mr t__:^)
Was the door locked and just not latched properly or was it unlocked (handle moves)? The fact is that the crew would not get an 'Official thank you'. In all likelihood, they'd get an official reprimand or time in the street. The fact is that the crew that made up that train is responsible to insure that the safety chains are in place and the storm doors on the open ends are locked properly.
Definately unlocked, but latched. I was prettyy surprised when it opened. And contrary to what I said before, in all likelihood, I would alert someone the next time. I'll just npt go back the way I came.
-Hank
[But the passengers who had seen me run the 1/2 length of the platform decided I was of no help to them, and as I walked to the 33st exit, i was cursed at, and somebody called me an 'interloper', among other names.]
All of which goes to show that even reasonably intelligent people (smart enough to know what "interloper" means) can be schmucks too.
[All of which goes to show that even reasonably intelligent people (smart enough to know what "interloper" means) can be schmucks too]
He might have been a personal injury lawyer,waiting for someone to fall out!
In all seriousness you did the right thing. The Conductor's quick action,as well as the "thank you" are proof of this. The remarks the passengers made were out of ignorance;either they didn't know what was happening or didn't understand the accident potential. Had I been there,I would have done the same.
I agree. You definitely did the right thing. Someone pulled a big oopsy and forgot to lock the storm door. Chances are you might have made it to the fifth car before reaching 34th St., considering the fact that uptown A trains crawl past 23rd St. for whatever reason.
I occasionally like to give the storm door handle a casual pull while looking out the window. Luckily, I've never had a storm door pop open; maybe I'm pushing my luck.
Once, on a BMT standard, I saw a 2x4 wedged diagonally against the storm door handle; apparently the door handle was unlocked and the door wouldn't stay shut. Could the storm doors on the standards be opened manually even though they were electro-pneumatically powered?
A few years ago I had "assumed the position" at the front of a LIRR M-1. I noticed that the cross-handles were in the up (unlocked) position. So I tried the door handle, and (you guessed it), it was open. I knocked on the engineer's door, and told him. He scowled at me and asked me if I had a key and had unlocked it!
-Todd/reporting this week from the Annual Meeting of the American Meteorological Society, Dallas, TX
[A few years ago I had "assumed the position" at the front of a LIRR M-1. I noticed that the cross-handles were in the up (unlocked) position. So I tried the door handle, and (you guessed it), it was open. I knocked on the engineer's door, and told him. He scowled at me and asked me if I had a key and had unlocked it!]
You experience reminds me of something that happened on the LIRR near Forest Hills one evening about six months ago. I was standing by the rear door of the last car on a packed Ronkonkoma-bound train (pardon the redundancy), when a man walked back to where I was standing and said "excuse me." I figured that he wanted a look out the rear door window so I stepped aside. He then pulled on the door handle but found it was locked. I told him we were in the last car; he looked through the door window, said "you're right" or something to that effect, then turned around and walked back toward the front of the car. He probably was so eager to find a seat that he hadn't bothered to look before trying to open the door - it was still light out, so even a quick glance would have make it obvious he wasn't going any farther. If the door hadn't been locked, this careless rider probably would've gotten the biggest and maybe last surprise of his life (I doubt my warning would've registered in time).
Well, the anger at being rebuked by some idiots will go away a lot faster than the pain felt by someone's family if they are killed falling out...Nice move.
When I was in Chicago, I found or saw open front and back doors several times in HOT weather. I could only conclude that that was legal, at least at the time. Hard to believe, but true!
Actually it was standard practice in warm/hot weather on the Illinois Central electric MU's for the rear slider to be open. Many evenings I rode there. On the L the end doors were hinged.
I have a photo in one of my books of a London Underground train from the days in which there were still hand-worked sliding doors on the district line. A set of passenger doos on the side is wide open. The caption claims that it was common practice in hot weather for passengers to open the doors during hot weather to let air in between stations. I am not entirely sure that I believe this.
But on all Chicago L cars, there is a set of chains (three across, connected by a vertical chain down the middle) to place across the end doors if they are at the front or rear of the train. I have never seen a train where the chains were not hooked up. It would take some considerable effort for an adult (never mind a child) to defeat this barrier and fall off the train -- one would have to do it on purpose.
They've got them here too. That's what inspired me to try the door. The chains weren't attached, they were dangling off the end of the car. And it would be pretty easy to fall off, if you slipped under the chains, which in NYC have over 1' of clearence from the theshold.
-Hank
What do you mean by "never again"? So what if you delayed the train. By reporting so you enabled the train crew to make some much needed overtime, avoiding a trip downtown for urine testing and most importantly saving some dumb shmucks life who shouldn't be allowed out there in the first place. You tell the complaining passengers that if the TA didn't care about their safety as much as we do, we would scrap the order for R-142s and 143s and instead purchase used refrigerated boxcars from Confail for their riding comfort. You did a very good deed and Id bet that the "thank you" did come from the Conductor in charge of that train at 34 Street
I noticed on the Michael Adler map that the Greenpoint Av station (G line) is shown as a middle island station. And on a Peter Dougherty map the same station is with 2 side platforms.
Which one is OK?
Greenpoint (or as the wall tiles say "GREENPT") Avenue station is (and always has been), two side platforms, just like most of the other "G" line stations (exc.Bedford Nostrand/Van Alst/Court Sq).
Wayne
This week we had a customer who claimed that our farebox ate his brand new $130 Unlim Express Metro Card. He said it came out of the ticket unit and fell inside some where ... well first it's very unlikely that the card did that, i.e. there's no way for the card to "come out somewhere". Anyhow the bus came in & went out again a couple of times before my guys got to open it up. You guessed it ... no card inside.
The problem is that WE didn't sell the guy this card & he didn't know what the serial number of the card was (we could "negitive list" the card & be willing to provide him one of ours as a replacement while we went after the TA to get reimbursed for our action). The customer isn't very happy right now.
S-o-o-o-o, if you have a lot of "value" on that MetroCard you're carrying, PLEASE take the time to right down the S/N somewhere, just in case.
Mr t__:^)
If he said $130, he was lying. As for the card coming out somewhere, didn't you say you had the same boxes as the TA? If so, then don't you have some kind of acrylic box that stores the used transfers? Sounds like attempted fraud to me....seem this kind of thing when I worked as a cashier.
-Hank
A new article in today's Times (Next Stop: Subway's Past) features two photographs from the web site of the 91st St. abandoned station. (That link will probably break after today so I will try to fix it tomorrow if you're reading this late.)
-Dave
I'm Leandro Ignacio Schiavi and I'll visit NYC on February 7 th., during three days. Since, I'll stay there a little time, I'll want How many minutes in subway to take advantage at the maximum. I'll stay at Salisbury Hotel (57 and 7th. street) You know?
The question is:
1- How many minutes there is from 57 and 7th. street until South Ferry?. What line you advise me to trip (1 o 9; N o R)?.
2- How many minutes there is from 57 and 7th. street until Villets Point (Tennis Stadium) (7 line)?.
3- Which are the hours more difficult?
Thanks you very much!.
Leandro.
Try the N/R from 57th and 7th and it will let you off at Whitehall St, which is the last stop in Manhattan .From there, South Ferry is a short walk.
You could take the 1/9 by either walking to Columbus Circle(59th and 8th) or at Times Square(on the N/R, Times Square is AFTER the next southbound N/R station).
That's right by Carnegie Hall, one of the most famous, if not THE most famous, concert hall in the world.
To get to Willets point, take the N to Queensboro Plaza and change to the 7 to Main St. across the platform. The Willets Point station is right next to Shea Stadium; you can't miss it. It's about a half-hour ride on the local; if you go during the afternoon on a weekday, there is express service which also stops at Willets Point. The Flushing (7) line is heavily used and is relatively safe during the day.
Dejame anadir que la linea #7 pasa por el vecindario "Jackson Heights," donde tu puedes encontrar mucha gente Colombiana, Ecuatoriana, Mexicana, y Argentina (sentirte como si en S.A.!). Entre las estaciones "Woodside" y Junction Blvd.," si quieres dar un paseo por la Ave. Roosevelt debajo del ferrocarril, hay muchos sitios donde puedes comer despues de haber visto los estadios Ashe de Tenis y Shea de beisbol, y tambien ver tiendas abiertas por gente de tu continente. Otra cosa - los estadios estan rodeados por un parque grandote, pero eso es todo. En el invierno, todo esta quieto.
Hay muy poca gente negra que viaja por esa linea y por eso, hay poco riesgo. Al fin de la linea - una parada despues de Willets Pt., se encuentra el segundo de los 4 pueblos Chinos de la ciudad. Tambien se encuentran muchos Koreanos. No creo que es una seccion turistica.
Para las lanchas hacia la estatua de libertad y las islas Staten y Ellis, las filas no deben ser tan grandes debido al invierno. Te digo que si quieres dar la ida o vuelta por el tren #1/9, eso te deja directamente atraves del terminal de la lancha isla Staten. La N/R no corre con buena frecuencia y camina a baja velocidad. El riesgo en Manhattan es mas que en la #7, pero si te escondes la camara en el abrigo y no sacas ni un mapa, debes estar seguro. En estos dias, los trenes tienen una muchedumbre desde la madrugada hasta casi la medianoche. Ademas, como hay mucha gente hispana y latinoamericana viviendo aqui, no sera dificil encontrar uno/una que te puede dar direcciones. Los dias del New Yorquino antipatico estan en el tiempo pasado, G.A.D.!
> Hay muy poca gente negra que viaja por esa linea y por eso,
> hay poco riesgo.
Hey, this qualifies as a derogatory comment. Maybe we could do without these the next time you post?
Thanks,
Dave
Yep, it's broke. But there's a new article today, about Phase One of the Times Square Renovation
-Hank
and that link vrings up that old fave Page not found
THe NY Times web site only leaves the news articles up for a day. The weekly sections like Arts stay up for a week, and certain others are available on an ongoing basis (Book Review & Cybertimes for instance). Unfortunately you have to be pretty quick to read the Times articles on the day they post them because they are gone the next day.
[THe NY Times web site only leaves the news articles up for a day. The weekly sections like Arts stay up for a week, and certain others are available on an ongoing basis (Book Review & Cybertimes for instance). Unfortunately you have to be pretty quick to read the Times articles on the day they post them because they are gone the next day.]
Expired articles sometimes can be retrieved from the archives, but it'll cost you. Another gripe I have with the Times' site is the way there are so many "server error" messages.
... on this morning's 6:57 to Flatbush Avenue from Ronkonkoma. Just before we platformed at Jamaica, the following exchange came over the PA for everyone to hear:
[Conductor] Engineer, can you do an MA reset as soon as we leave the station?
[Engineer] Nope.
[Conductor (sounding puzzled)] Do you mean the whole train's dead?
[Engineer] Nope. I just don't feel like doing it.
Alas, I had to get off at that point to catch a Penn Station train, so I didn't get to hear the rest of the exchange. Pity.
I really enjoyed some of those exchanges on the LIRR. My favorite was on one of many late afternoon trips into the city, which began with the usual announcements as we were pulling into Jamaica:
Cond: Attention please. This will be an EXPRESS train from Jamaica to New York Penn Station. This train will *NOT* stop at Kew Gardens, Forest Hills, or Woodside. It is an EXPRESS train and it will NOT stop ANYWHERE until PENN STATION NEW YORK [repeat two times or so, as usual].
Other Cond: Uh, Joe, the sign says we're making all stops...
[Pause]
Cond: Attention Please. TODAY ONLY, this train will stop at KG, FH, and Woodside, and New York Penn Station. TODAY ONLY, this train will make SPECIAL STOPS at ... etc.
You could just hear the annoyance dripping from the guys voice.
One thing about LIRR: the information flow is very good on that system. Those signs they have at Penn and Jamaica are very helpful. I do not understand how anyone could ever get on the wrong train.
[One thing about LIRR: the information flow is very good on that system. Those signs they have at Penn and Jamaica are very helpful. I do not understand how anyone could ever get on the wrong train.]
It does happen. New Year's Eve, I was on a Ronkonkoma train (earlier than my usual one) that was running express to Wyandanch after Jamaica. During the time we were stopped at Jamaica, at least 5 minutes, the conductor repeatedly announced that Wyandanch would be our next stop. He named all the stops between Wyandanch and Ronkonkoma and warned that anyone going to a different station was on the wrong train. This whole spiel was repeated a couple of times. Yet a woman in her early 20's got on at Jamaica, well before the train left, and then asked the conductor - after we left the station, naturally - if the train stopped at Hicksville.
By the way, despite the woman's pleas, and an appeal on her behalf by a couple of men sitting nearby, the conductor refused to order a special stop at Hicksville. The woman had to go to Wyandanch and backtrack, which given the reverse-peak schedules would have added at least two hours to her trip.
That train sounds like the 5:23 from Jamaica. When I rode it, no matter how many announcements were made, invariably someone would run to the conductor and say they got on the wrong train and needed to get off at Mineola. Usually we would stop. On the 4:51 from Penn Station, the first stop is Hicksville (no Jamaica Stop). Dont tell the conductor that you got on the wrong train because he won't stop the "Silver Bullet".
I'll visit NYC on February 7th, during three days.
The question is ;
Somebody Knows Salisbury Hotel (57 and 7th.street)?
Is there Salisbury Hotel in a good place?
How many floors had it? more or less.
Hey Leandro,
I tried e-mailing you, but it kept coming back as "undeliverable".
Can you e-mail me with your correct e-mail address? I want to help
you, and provide you with information on New York City, and transit
system. I live near Philadelphia, which is another interesting city
to visit, and it's only 1 1/2 hours from New York City by (Amtrak)
train. Just click on my name to send me e-mail. Hope to hear from
you.
El Salisbury esta a media quadra de una estacion subterranea en la calle 57 y la 6ta avenida. No es super-lujosa, pero parece comoda desde la calle. Creo que el edificio tiene mas o menos 11 pisos. El vecindario no es un arrabal; la gente que vive alrededor es bastante rica. Estacionamiento si alquilas un carro sera carisimo. Yo se que tu viaje te va requerer estar sentado casi 11 horas en un avion. Espero que no te aburres hasta la muerte!
Por su informacion, si quieres visitar el museo de nuestro tren subterraneo, esta a 2 cuadras al sur de la estacion Borough Hall de las lineas 2, 3, 4, y 5.
Ademas, he leido que hay por lo menos un vagon de 1912 del tren subterraneo de Buenos Aires que se ha puesto en algun museo. Me lo puedes confirmar? Nuestro museo del transito ofrece como 2 veces al ano (365 dias, NO el fundillo! No tengo la ~ propia!) una excursion en un tren antiguo de 1928 del la division BMT. Perdon que mi macquinilla no tiene los acentos o la ~ sobre la n. No fue hecha para espanol!
For those of you who don't speak Spanish, I not only gave Leandro pointers about our Salisbury Hotel, but also asked him about something I read many years ago - I saw a picture of a very small section of a 1912-vintage subway car from Buenos Aires's subway that was restored and placed in some kind of a museum setting in one of the city's subway stations. The little bit of that car suggests a design like the BMT Standard/1928 Philadelphia cars/Boston Cambridge cars. I also mentioned about our BMT Triplex nostalgia train and the transit museum. His English seems a bit choppier than my Spanish. If he responds in Spanish, I'll try my best to translate. Argentine and Puerto Rican (my) dialects are quite different.
In the meantime, does anyone out there know about this vintage subway car from the first days of Buenos Aires's subway?
I have, on many occasions, been involved in public policy decisions in which opponents came up with all kinds of absurd predictions, and got their names and wacky ideas in the paper (ie. of the Costo Warehouse opens in Sunset Park half the local stores will close). No one ever goes back and says wait a minute, you were full of it! And when the next issue comes along, their point of view is treated just as seriously. There is no credit for facts, no penalty for bullshit, and memory or accounting.
With that in mind, how about all those people who lampooned the TA for the Metrocard? Some people have had swipe problems (I haven't) but what would happen if the TA proposed going back to tokens, with no free transfers and a single flat fare? The same anti-change nitwits who objected to Metrocard would object to that. The TA hasn't crowed, and the Daily News among others hasn't eaten it, and that's a pity. There are key lessons here:
1) Progress is good.
2) There is no progress without change.
3) New things start out working poorly and then improve as the kinks are worked out, so they are easy targets early on.
We live in the biggest small town in America when it comes to change and technology. Elected officials just love to jump on the latest anti-change bandwagon that is rolling by.
Sad to say, there are people who want things to stay the same. We have plenty of them out here in Colorado. It's the if-it-ain't-broke,-don't-fix-it-we-like-it-just-the-way-it-is mentality. We don't want or need a new airport; we don't want baseball; we don't want light rail; we don't want any stupid Winter Olympics. It goes on and on. It's enough to make you sick.
[Sad to say, there are people who want things to stay the same. We have plenty of them out here in Colorado. It's the if-it-ain't-broke,-don't-fix-it-we-like-it-just-the-way-it-is mentality. We don't want or need a new airport; we don't want baseball; we don't want light rail; we don't want any stupid Winter Olympics.]
But you eventually got three out of those four examples (and if the experience of Utah's anything to go by, probably are lucky not to have gotten the fourth). What major public works projects have NYC gotten in recent years?
EXACTLY!!! What major works HAS NYC done in the last 20-30-40 years?? These are the same jerks who;after there hadnt a major accident involving a bus in who knows how many years;suddenly in cold weather and ice on the roads,theres been a small spate of them; and these guys (Mr Dear from Brooklyn is the worst!) come charging out out demanding all sortsof expensive,probably unnecessary regulations.
Knee jerk politicians are the one of the worst plaugues visited on us in the last 30 years or so...I blame television....(sorry for the rant folks..)
NYC got Disney to move into Times Square. Is that a public works project. Maybe Disney can get a 42nd street light rail project going. They seem to do a good job with transit at their theme parks maybe times square can be their next theme park and there can be some improvements in the Big Apple. Think about it the Monorail to Broadway.
Metrocard in its original form (the old blue cards) was a failure. The Daily News kept saying, in order for it to succeed, there have to be discounts associated with using it. The MTA resisted for years, then finally gave in. When the discounts were offered, Metrocard succeeded. So the Daily News was in fact right from the beginning.
My point about eating crow is that no one ever calls someone on the ridiculous statements they made in the past. For example, federal transport officials said at a meeting I was at several years ago that isn't it foolish to invest in subways to Manhattan when everywhere transit and central business districts are being abandoned? The next time that guy shows up and says something, no one is going to say "hey, why should be listen to you, you said that and you were wrong!" They just go right on spouting the same nonsense.
[My point about eating crow is that no one ever calls someone on the ridiculous statements they made in the past. For example, federal transport officials said at a meeting I was at several years ago that isn't it foolish to invest in subways to Manhattan when everywhere transit and central business districts are being abandoned? The next time that guy shows up and says something, no one is going to say "hey, why should be listen to you, you said that and you were wrong!"]
You said "several years ago." If that meeting had been in 1991 or 1992, based on conditions at the time those comments may have seemed quite reasonable with respect to Manhattan,
(Their predictions of doom might have been quite reasonable in 1991). I didn't think so. The point is, they were wrong and I was right. Doesn't that mean my point of view should carry more weight next time?
The turnaround of NYC was fairly easy to predict in 1991. I actually got an op-ed published in Newsday on Jan 18, 1994, just after a bunch of people predicted that NYC would gain just 100,000 jobs back by 1998 (actual gain nearly 300,000). What I pointed out was that the "flight from the city" ended in the late 1970s, and if the city didn't go down then (as many did) it would go down now -- the suburbs lost jobs just as fast. What happened is that the 1980s boom caused the Northeast to become overpriced (relative to the rest of the U.S.) and information technology caused information-based industries, which are concentrated in the Northeast, to restructure. We lost several hundred thousand clerical and middle managment jobs. The same things happend to other regions during the 1980s, and they came back once the adjustment was complete.
The beef? The same people are making the same arguments than New York really is doomed, even now, and getting their idiotic point of view in the newspaper! A few of months ago I had to write essentially the same paper as five years ago, expaining what happened in the 1980s and that it wouldn't happen again just because the stock market retreated from its ridiculous highs. Same thing with transit -- won't everyone be driving as incomes rise? I had to point out, again, that the share of NYC households with 1+ cars was about the same in 1990 as in 1960.
At some point, people must stop looking around. Maybe their hard drive gets full, so they can produce output but can't accept any input.
A few years ago the administration in office wanted to dismantle public trasportation support. Their Idea of mass transit was two couples in one Town Car going to the country club. They did not see the need for public funding.
Broad generalizations are scarry at best and you are right they shoot from the hip with bull and never get called on it to justify the statements or assumptions.
Urban centers like NYC, Chicago and some others are doing great. The edge cities are not a great places to do business and have no charm.
A city has a sole that people are rediscovering.
Hi, fellow buffs; I read in the Daily News of 1/7/99 that these machines will sell, among other cards, a "paper" Metrocard at $1.50(for one ride, obviously). My question:in addition to the 2:18 time limit to be used,will there be a transfer issued, or, like previously using a token, is this entry without any transfer privilege? Gerry Josephs
My understanding is that there is no transfer available with the paper card. Just like a token (except that it is invalid 2 hours or so after purchase).
Dear CTG, Thanks for your help...Gerry Josephs
I was able to obtain a bit more detail from a source at 130 Livingston Plaza (Brooklyn):
- It will be a Green Card, no pun intended, that's the color of it.
- It is only good for TWO HOURS FROM THE TIME YOU BUY it, and no good outside on the surface fleet ! AND don't walk to the next block & try to use it in that subway, cause it won't work there.
- No free Transfer either, even though it is Transfer stock except for the color and graphics (who said Transfers were no good on the subways Turnstiles, wasn't me).
The guy said to me that the restrictions were clearly written on the card, I replyed "no comprendo ..." he didn't laugh :-(
The TA is trying to be consistant here, i.e. if you buy a subway ride now for cash, you won't get a Transfer, although you can put the token in your pocket & use it later or on a bus. This fare media type would seem to indicate that the TA is more serious then Chicago was about getting the Token Booth Agents relieved of the job of SELLING.
Disclaimer: I don't work for the TA or DOT, so I'm not making a official announcement here, just passing a little info along to my friends.
Mr t__:^)
Man that sucks!
When I come into the city like at Penn Station, I'd buy two tokens at the same time, one for my return trip. But now it sounds like you can't even do that since you can't use your card at other stations. I think they're going backwards on this deal.
Does seem like a stupid idea. You want to cut down on the wear and tear on the machines, so why a one ride card instead of a round trip, two ride card? I guess the feel the need to have something available to someone who only has $1.50. However, for someone coming into town rarely for one specific trip, a round trip card is what you need.
With $3.00, you should be able to buy a regular $3.00 Metrocard at the machines. These restrictions are apparently only for people who don't want to, or can't, pay $3.00 up front.
Is it possible that this is intended as an anti-homeless measure? That is, people who can just manage to scrape up $1.50 at a time will not be able to ride with the same priveleges as others, and that is the way the MTA likes it? It sounds awfully stupid, and perhaps truly "mean-spirited", as they say.
Well, I think the official line is that it is to keep people from using the vending machines as change machines. Also, they will only give up to $5 change.
I wonder if is also to discourage buying single use cards, to cut down on card consumption and machine wear.
These seem like pretty good restrictions to me...if you are going to be going for more than one trip (as in Jersey Boys case), it makes sense then for someone to but the Funpass for $4,that way they can make more than a round-trip...make stops etc..if your ONLY gonna make a round trip..you buty a $6 pass thats good for a year.( which ive been doing ever since the MC has come out..)...assuming the $6 is still available of course......
The reason the 'advocates' were screaming about the apparent demise of the token WAS the idea that the poor..disadvantaged,could only afford to scrape up the $1.50 at one time....
Lots of folks buys subway tokens like it's the last time that they'll ever need one. I remember the lines for "ten-packs" on Mondays. I used to always have at least one extra in my pocket to avoid the line, then go out at lunch time or buy another ten-pack on my way home.
I'm sure there are a lot of occasional riders too (it's raining, they get tired of waiting for a cab or bus to come buy, etc.)
Mr t__:^)
P.S. Sorry I forgot to include this tid bit ...
The first two places that you can buy a One Ride Green Card is:
- Columbus Circle (assume it's good on both IRT & IND lines, that will be a good test).
- Lex & 68th IRT, who will be the first to try & use on the BMT at 5th and 63rd ?
- Each station is to get 5 machines
Mr t__:^)
Why is the MTA doing this? Are the plastic Metrocards considered too expensive to "waste" on a $1.50-only card? It seems to me that the extra expense of stocking the paper cards and programming the system to distinguish them from regular Metrocards would more than offset any savings. And it really seems unfair that, if someone has only $1.50 on them at a given moment, they should be unable to make a trip that requires taking a subway and a bus, when others can make the same trip for a cost of $1.50.
The answer for many people may be to pick up a discarded Metrocard in the station, then refill it. Apparently, refilling a used-up Metrocard with $1.50 is OK.
Maybe, maybe not. The TA was earlier in the year, looking at paer for all metrocards. I think the deal on the paper singles is environmental. If you're just buying one ride, you're not going to use the card again. By making it paper, it will do too things: Be easily recyclable, and biodegradeable. So if it's dropped to the tracks after entry, it'll disintegrate in a few months.
-Hank
I do know they were testing laminated paper a few years ago. I wonder if this is what they are going to use.
I think the laminated paper MetroCards were the ones they were dispensing out of the ATM machines a couple of months ago as a test.
Someone revealed they were going to using green-colored xfer stock.
-Hank
Paper vs. plastic seems to go against their policy that all MetroCards look the same ?
The MVM (ATM) machines will also carry a more paper looking MetroCard, i.e. the color of the plastic ones, but shorter service life. I haven't heard if that's what they intend to put the Fun Pass on or if the machine dispence it for what ever you buy (plus the one-ride green card). They've been testing for some time now in a few stations & bus routes (I have a few of them ... want to trade ?).
I'll bet the Subway Agent won't put 1.50 on a plastic MC that you might find on the ground.
- If it was a time (unlim) card it's dead
- For an old value card $15 is the cheepest deal (U get 1 free ride)
Mr t__:^)
That's the laminated cards-- paper encased in plastic covering.
What threat does snow pose to long distance or high-speed trains?
That would depend largely on the propulsion system and/or the means of electric delivery. Most immune tot he effects of snow are diesel locomotives which are virtually immune to snow's effects. Next would be th ediesel/electric locimotives. If the traction motors or motor leads get wet, from the snow, there can be problems. The electric locomotives can have the same problem but in addition, they can also fall victim to snow/ice covering the 3rd rail or snow and ice causing overhead catenary to come down. Snow on the rails actually has little effect since most current equipment is equiped with 'snow brakes'.
I understand that New York now has the equivalent of a Daypass.
How much does one cost and are there discounts for purchasing more than one??
They call it a "Fun Pass", it cost $4 and is good for the rest of the day (after you first use it ... actually to 3 AM the next morning). The card also has a expiration date printed on it, so you have to start using it before that date, about a year away.
These are not to be confused with the "One Ride" card that will be on sale soon ... you don't want one, trust me.
Mr t__:^)
Here they are!
1. BX on a 3-car set of BMT standards indicated the middle car was a 4000-series motorless trailer.
2. There were 8 buttons altogether on each door console. Ed Sachs described what each one did in his posting. I couldn't have put it better myself. Thanks, Ed!
3. The Flivers and Steinway Lo-Vs could not operate in m. u. with the standard Lo-Vs, or with each other, for that matter.
4. The R-44s and R-46s are totally incompatible with all other equipment. On top of that, they cannot m. u. with each other!
5. During the mid to late 50s, the R-10s and R-16 carried passengers on both the A and the #15-Jamaica routes at the same time. 50 R-16s came over to the A in 1956 to help inaugurate Rockaway service; they were returned to the BMT in 1958 or thereabouts. 30 R-10s went over to the Eastern Division in 1954 and remained there until 1959.
6. The R-38s and slant R-40s were both initially assigned to the E and F lines.
7. The first R-32s were placed in service on the Q/Brighton express.
8. The red-and-white marker light combination belonged to the Sea Beach express.
9. The R-26, R-27, R-28, and R-30 cars were initially joined into married pairs with couplers at the blind ends. During GOH, the R-26s and R-28s received drawbars; the R-27s and R-30s did not.
10. The R-9s took their last curtain call on March 31, 1977. Mark Feinman was kind enough to provide some specifics pertaining to that event. Thank you, Mark! Was 1689 part of that consist, by any chance? I heard once that it did, in fact, run on that final day.
Thanks to all who took part. I stand corrected if there are any errors.
Hi there,
I'd like to know if anyone knows on what routes does the MTA plan to use the new R-142 and R-143 trains when they come out, supposedly this year?
Thanks,
- Jose
R-142
-Supposedly to the #1 and 2, and some R-62's are to be transferred to the #7
R-143
-They are to go to the 'L' as far as I've heard.
I believe that the #2,& 5 Trains will get them first,as far as the r142s are concern
I heard that the L train will be the first line to get the r143s
The R142 will be on the 2 and 5 at first; the E180st (Unionport) shop is being rebuilt to serve as a maintainence base for them. The R143 will be exclusive, in the beginning, to the L, where they will be testing a new signal system that allows for near-automated control of the trains early in the next century.
-Hank
Thanks to all three of you for your response.
I was wondering since the nearest stop to me is the Roosevelt Avenue Stop on the E/F/G/R/7. I was thinking that it was time the #7 got updated cars, so, at least from what one of you said, some R-62s will be transferred to that line.
Thanks again,
- Jose
I was wondering -- does anyone know if the 7 holds the record for the longest time with the same trains (R-33 WF and R-36 WF). I know other models were in use longer, but because they were on the main lines, they were mixed with other models. Outside of one time about 15 years ago when I remember an R-15 being hooked up to a group of R-36s on the Flushing line, and the brief R-62 test, the 7 has had the same trains since jst before the World's Fair began in 1964.
J.Lee: This doesn't answer your question but you might find it of interest. When the World's Fair opened in April of 1964 there were not quite enough Bluebirds (R-33WF and R-36WF) on hand cover the service. So some Redbirds(R-33ML)were sent over from the mainline to help out. In order to make up an eleven car consists a few R-17's were used since they were single units and possibly because of the maroon paint scheme. Remember that the Corona Yard had a car washer to keep the cars clean and for a while the Flushing was very colorful.
Regards,Redbird
My first trip on the Flushing line wasn't until the World's Fair started, so I missed the change-over. The time I saw the R-15 MUed with the regular R-36s I wasn't even on the subway, but headed towards Manhattan on Queens Blvd. as the train was pulling out of the 46th St. station. I don't remember what year it was exactly, but it was after they repainted the Flushing cars from their World's Fair design to the stock MTA silver and blue.
Some of the World's Fair R-36s were painted silver and blue in 1979-80, when other equipment was repainted in that scheme for the second time. They were skipped over in 1970. Others kept their original colors until the MTA came up with the brilliant idea of painting the cars white in an attempt to win the war on graffiti.
The R-15s began their careers on the Flushing line, as a matter of fact; however, they migrated over to the mainlines once the R-36s were firmly entrenched.
During GOH, a group of R-17s filled in for the single unit R-33s, including Shoreline's #6688. They were even painted Redbird red.
In any event, it can be safely said that the WF R-36s hold the record for having served the same line exclusively for the longest time. The R-10s on the A come in second. Here's an idea for a future quiz: the R-36s are to the 7 as the R-10s are to the A.
Particularly significant, because some of the R-10's were even painted in the World's Fair R-36 scheme in the 60's!
Eric: I think the nicest paint scheme the R-10's ever had was the Pullman Green one, with there distinctive roof profile they looked very smart. They tried a Pullman Green scheme on some R-33's but somehow it didn't look as good.
Regards,Redbird
When you think about it, the period from 1963-69 probably had the biggest variety of larger orders of trains ever delivered in the subway's history. You could always tell a main line R-33/36 from the World's Fair ones, The R-32 had it's own look, the R-38 was slightly less unique, but still different, and then came the R-40, R-40M and the R-42s. Even the old TA logo looked more colorful that the bland M Transit they adopted when the MTA took over.
Now, unless you're a rail fain, telling apart the R-44s from the R-46s from the R-68s isn't easy. At least the R-142/R-143 will have the own unique look, though its still hard to picture the IRT in the nar future with nothing but stainless steel trains in revenue service.
Well, not quite the same scheme, but it was close. That was my personal favorite color scheme on the R-10s: white with the broad aqua band around the bottom portion of the car, with a narrow aqua band at the belt rail. I believe the entire R-10 fleet sported that scheme for a time (in 1967-68, anyway), until they received a half-and-half white and aqua treatment before the silver-and-blue colors came along. Mr. R-10 himself can correct me on this if I'm wrong.
Just a small point. Since the R-62s are linked in 5-car units and the #7 runs 11 car trains, it'll likely be R-62As on the #7 line. Not the same thing by a long shot....
Correct me if I'm wrong on this Steve,but can't the R-62 and R-62A mu with each other.
Redbird
Hi there, thanks for your responses.
If it's true that R62s and R62-As can MU with each other, then 11 car trains can exist with those two units during regular hours, similar to how 10 5-unit R-36s and an R33 are used currently.
For example, figuratively, an 11-car R62 setup could look like this with the current MTA numbering:
1545-1544-1543-1542-1541*1723*1606-1607-1608-1609-1610
R62 R62 R62 R62 R62 R62A R62 R62 R62 R62 R62
- part of unit
* coupled
In addition, I believe that the #7 runs some rush hour trains with 10 units, so 2 R-62 units could be used too.
- Jose
Theoretically it could be set up like that, but I bet that some of the #3's cars will wind up there, with unjoined cars from the #1/9 going over to the #3. The #3 can only run nine-cars. I don't see the Kawasaki R62 going anywhere but the #4 line anytime soon.
Wayne
With the kind of configuration you suggest, I would bet the single unit would be on the north end of the train. In relation to the Conductors position, on the flushing line, when running 11 cars, there are always 6 cars north and 5 cars south. This will put the conductor on the current indication board as well as keeping with the standard of keeping the two availabe conductor position next to each other.
I was under the impression that the R-62s and R-62As are not intermixed. Even so, if the R-62As are being reworked into 5-car sets, the remaining single cars should be able to run in m. u. with them.
10-car trains of R-36s are run during the summer months because the single unit R-33s are not air conditioned.
I don't see all R62A's being linked into 5 car sets because the #3 runs 9 car trains due to 145 St. station being able to accomodate only 4 cars. Also, due to increased ridership, the #7 ran 11 car trains all summer long.
Actually, the reason for the 3 running 9-car trains is Lenox Yard not being able to hold a 10-car train. And who says that they'll all be 5-car sets? They can just as easily make 2-3-4 car sets, if they wanted to, a 9 or 10 car set (impractical, I know)
-Hank
would there be a way to have Lenox yard hold 10 car trains/ How expensive would it be to extend tracks for the extra length? or can it be done?
I must admit that I've never been in 148th St. yard. In fact I worked the IRT only in emergencies. I suppose it would be possible but NY real estate costs being what they are, and the questionable benefits derived, I doubt that it would be done.
There are 2 reasons for not MUing R-62s and R-62As. They may be overlooked when the #7 line gets new equipment but I suspect not for these 2 technical reasons.
R-62s have GE propulsion and R-62As have Westinghouse. In theory, the trainline functions are the same and the can co-exist in the same train consist. The problem is that Westinghouse cars use air engines to control the propulsion functions. These air engines are controlled by solinoids with small coils while GE uses large contactors and a cam controller driven by a pilot motor. Specifically, GE prop. has 4 large contactors with large coils, the 'S', LB, P1 and P2. When the motorman goes to coast, the electric fields in the coils of these contactors collapse rapidly and form a transient spike over 10 times the level of the nominal voltage of 37.5 volts DC. (Basic electricity so trust me) This spike travels back along the trainline 'GS' wire until it gets to the operating master controller. GE master controllers are built to handle these transients but Westinghouse propulsion, which uses much smaller coils, does not. Therefore if you had an R-62A as the controlling end with 10 R-62s trailing, the transients would make short work of the westinghouse master controller resulting in a train which could not take power from the head end.
Second is the fact that R-62s and R-62As have dis-similar brake systems. Again they are compatible but are generally not mixed in revenue service. Of course, there is always one exception to any rule. The R-32s have both NYAB (phase II) and WABCO (phase I)air brake systems and while all have GE propulsion, the R-32 Phase IIs have Westinghouse master controllers. R-32 phase Is and Phase IIs are kept seperate except at Jamaica Shop which has 'special dispensation' to run mixed consists. Of course the R-32 Westinghouse master controllers have been modified with extra supression to handle the GE transient spikes.
Don't these coils in the SCM group box already have snubber networks
across them to absorb the transient? Obviously if so, they aren't
working that well since this is a documented problem. Do the
GE master controllers have a snubber or solid state arrestor across
the contacts or is it just that they have bigger contact fingers?
The GE Master Controllers have larger contacts and significantly larger shunts than the Westinghouse counterparts. Particularly vulnerable is the 14C or GS contact. As I said, the transient spikes can and do excede 400 volts in a 10 car consist. The GE master controller is built to handle these transients so the 'inadequate' suppression on the SCM contactor coils is a non-issue unless a Westinghouse Master controller is used..
This problem has manifested itself on the R-46s too. The R-46 NYAB Master Controller uses Licon Micro-switches instead of contacts. The transients cause arcing in the micro-switches. The ozone produced within the switch, by the arcing, does over time cause significant deterioration of the micro-switch housing, leading to pre-mature failure. The R-46 is currently being retrofitted with Solid State Switches which are not suceptible to transients. Similar failures are also being found in NYAB brake valves which uses Licon switches in the electric self lapper. Obviously, this is being due to the large transients caused by the collapsing fields of the A & R magnet valves during normal brake operation.
BTW - I appologize to those not so technically inclined for the long- winded explanations of this problem. However, it does point out that subway cars are a bit more sophisticated than the old Athern Hustler with the rubberband drive...
Why no snubber across the poles of the A&R magnets?
Why no snubber across the poles of the A&R magnets?
Traditionally, the electric self lapper was a pair of contacts mounted on a pendulem under the brake valve. There was a fairly large capacitor for suppression but the contacts took a pretty good beating and periodically needed cleaning. Wabco still uses this arranement but because the electric self lapper could take that beating, no suppression was ever put on the coils because it was not necessary. With the incorporation of the NYAB self lapper, micro-switches were used. While Licon rated the switches for applications with high transients, they just don't stand up. NYAB even incorporated it's own RC suppression circuit and that too fails to totally do the job.
Steve,
Love the "boring" stuff! Keep it coming!
BTW, re the Daily News article on R-143 seating: The article stated that the cars are slated for the A, D, and F routes. Last I heard, they were headed for the L route to work in conjunction with the new CBTC (Communications-Based Train Control) signal system. Has that changed, or has the Daily News once again printed something in hopes that if they say it, it will be so?
David
We, in the field are the last to know anything but a recent key personnel shifts would indicate that the R-143s are still slated for the L line. They may also run a couple of 'show trains' on the A,D, and F lines but they are still slated for the East.
WINS got it mostly right, although they pretty much regurgitated the Daily news report. WINS added the important words 'such as'; as in 'The new cars for the lettered lines such as the A D and F....'
-Hank
Since the A, D and F all are stored at differnt yards, putting the R-143s on those lines (As opposed to E and F or the A and C) would be a return to the 1960s and 70s, when cars were sent out to almost every yard at the same time.
Besides, it's been over 60 years since the Canarsie line actually got to debut a new car model (The handful of R-40Ms that made it there in 1969 don't count), instead of taking every other line's hand-me-downs.
A very good point, a possible show train on these lines makes some sense, but to spread the new fleet among four shops (Pitkin, 207, Jamaica and Concourse) would be a training nightmare. It always makes sense to concentrate a new fleet at one location so that the shop crews get familiar quickly without having to keep being diverted to other cars.
As far as the L is concerned, and East New York in general, the yard has a reputation for being where equipment is sent to die. With no 'real' express service and long lines with many stops, tight curves, and steep grades, this is a punishing group of routes which saw the end of both the standards and the R1-9 series. The R40-42 cars which are assigned there now have served well, but I think that the last cars assigned there new were the BMT multi-sections! The people who ride those lines deserve to see new equipment, if only once in 60 years!
Gerry
Didn't the R-16s also end their troubled lives at East New York, or was it Fresh Pond Yard?
East NY yard was the maintenance Facility while Fresh Pond Yard is only a storage facility. Cars are assigned to maintenance facilities only and not storage facilities. The storage facilities are satellites of the maintenance facility. East NY has two, Fresh Pond and Carnarsie. The R-16s were based at East NY at the end of their careers.
If you want the complete details of those last twenty or so R16's and the final days in 1988 before theywere hauled away, please E-mail me ERIK6398@webtv.net
I was there for all it.
On the contrary, this technical stuff isn't boring at all, IMHO. I've learned a lot about stuff like this in the past year, and appreciate it very much. Your explanation on the coupler pins, specifically the door controls, answered a long-standing question I had as to whether the R-10s could run in m. u. with other cars.
Speaking of controllers, why were the GE controllers on the R-16s such a maintenance nightmare when they worked fine on the R-17s?
I'm glad that you find the technical side interresting. Unfortunately a few of my Car Inspectors are just 'Parts Changers' without any interest in the whys.
I only worked on the R-16s for a few weeks before they were scrapped. The GE controller was called an MCM type Model 17KG1137D1, as I remember it actually had two cam controllers in it with 2 pilot motors. One for power and one for braking. That alone made for extra work. In addition, I believe that the R-16 GEs were referred to as "Flat Bottoms". The control groups and grids were completely enclosed. A fan on the motor-generator was responsible for the cooling of the grids. If the M-G failed, there went the ball game. The R-17 had a GE Controller referred to as a PCM type, Model 17KG137E1. As for the Westinghouse control groups on both contracts, the R-16s used a model UP631A and the R-17s used a UP631B. I never worked on R-17 propulsion so I can't compare the 2.
I'm afraid that's partially incorrect, Steve. Both R16 and R17
GE cars used almost identical MCM control groups. The differences
between 17KG137D1 and E1 are minor...somewhere I have an MCM book
and I could look it up.
The PCM was GE's earlier design. It dates back to the early 1930s,
as it was one of the control systems initially being considered
(and ultimately rejected) by the E.R.P.C.C. (see; "The PCC, the
Car That Fought Back"). PCM was an outgrowth of GEs earlier PC
(pneumatic cam) group which can be found on selected LoV, R1-9
and AB cars. The M in PCM refers to additional Magnetic contactors
that allow it to do dynamic braking. PCM groups can be found on
R10-15 GE cars. Other than the usual problems with air-operated
things, they were very rugged and reliable systems.
The MCM design was the Edsel of GE switch groups. It uses two separate cams, each driven by a 38Volt pilot motor. One cam is
used to make up the grid resistance combinations. The other cam
sets up the general circuit combinations (coast,series,parallel,brake)
and has cam-driven contacts analogous to S, P1, P2, B1, B2 etc.
on the SCM group. I don't know why GE decided this was a good idea,
but based on how quickly they dropped it and went to SCM I guess
they realized it wasn't a good idea afterall.
As you (Steve) mentioned, another glorious feature of MCM is that
the grid resistances are stuffed in a box under the center of the
car, and air from a fan mounted on the motor-generator set is
ducted in and blown over the grids and cams. As you recall, it
wasn't a pretty sight if the M-G failed and all this cooling air
disappeared. Burning hot grids right next to wiring harness, well,
you get the picture. As a result there was a modification made
(mid-1960s?) that prevented the line switch from coming in until
the M-G was proven to be running, and running at the higher speed
(the M-G on MCM groups rev'd up when power was taken). Cars with
MCM groups exhibit a 1-2 second delay in taking power.
The GE R-16s were notoriously bad. The 17s were a little better.
Maybe its was teething pains. The R21 and R22 also had MCM and
weren't great performers either. They were retired a year or two
before the R17s.
Well, since both pre-dated me, I'm happy to be corrected. However, GE did not learn it's lesson with dual cam controllers. The R-46 had a similar arrangement before the SCM-1s were installed. I also believe that the LIRR SCM-4 has 2 cams but this is only by word of mouth.
If you got the info from Geno's book then I see the page that
is in error. It's a good book, but unfortunately a bunch of
little errors crept in. It lists the correct GE part # for
the R17 control group, but incorrectly calls that a "PCM".
One of the joys of the museum biz is that you get to re-create
first-hand the headaches that the original operators of the equipment
must have had. You get to uncover design flaws in equipment whose
designer probably died before you were born. And of course, you
don't have a fleet of thousands of spares and a warehouse full of
parts inventory.
So I'm familiar with the MCM as applied to the R17 car class,
since I maintain one at the Shore Line Trolley Museum. Erik Dina,
who seems to be around this board, works on an R-16 at Kingston, though I think that's a WH car.
I don't have much on the original R46 controls, and they are fascinating to me as an example of analog computers. I think the
dual-cams were split up one for motoring and one for braking, whereas
on MCM, one was for resistance (and field shunt) and the other was
the "circuit controller". I have an M-1 electrical set around
somewhere and I'll look up how that works.
As for transient suppression, the most effective place to kill the
spike is right across the coil that is being interrupted. Try a
.1 microfarad poly capacitor in parallel with a TVSS (transient
voltage surge suppressor, basically a fast-acting Zener diode)
rated for about 50 volts standoff, 1500VA. Hook it up directly
across the coil terminals, or as close to as practical. The problem
with snubbing the arc at the m-c contacts is there's a lot of impedance between the spike source (the contactor coil) and the spike suppression. Put a scope across another "innocent" trainline that isn't part of the propulsion circuits (like L1) and I'll bet you
see a hundred volt or so induced voltage spike.
Say, how is 6688 doing these days? I saw it parked outside the last time I visited Shoreline in July 1995. Took some pictures of it. I hear it still runs great.
6688 is doing just fine. It is stored indoors, btw, although
it spent some time outdoors in 1995 because of track work.
Runs fine, and comes out several times a year for public operations.
I take it the doors on 6688 still work, too. Do they use the high-level loading platform, if it carries visitors?
Yes, all of the rapid transit cars at Shoreline are loaded and
unloaded at the high-level platform. You should come and visit
again.
Some of us should come visit for a first time :(
Never been there. Maybe in the spring......
-Hank
Jeff, et., al.,
Will there be a time this Spring when they bring some of the rapid transit cars out of the barn for a run, i.e. are there special days when they are in use or do you have to make a request of some type ?
Todd, et., al.,
How about the heavy rail cars in ME, are they normally running or only on special days/events ?
P.S. I have very fond memories of the NINE NYC trollies & rapid transit cars that I rode this past October on "NY Days" at Branford's Shore Line !!!
Mr t__:^)
The cars (at Branford)only come out at certain times of the year particularly for the special events. I don't think Branford takes special requests for the equipment. If a movie is being filmed, and you pay them to use the equipment that's a different story. The problem with running the Rapid Transit Cars on a more frequent basis is that they eat up Branford's electric bills. My understanding is that the Museum pays their electric bills on a peak/off peak period. Peak meaning more money/more demand, off peak meaning less demand, less money. So in summary, the cars are run when the electric bills are at their lowest. This doesn't mean that they don't have to run the cars, only when it is at their convenience.
In the spring, I know there will be a members day for the members of Branford to run some cars (qualified and non-qualified operators). I can't wait to be in the cab of the R17! There will probably be a photo shoot of equipment, especially equipment that's been in their barns for quite a while. I'm not sure of anything else going on so Jeff H. can fill in the missing blanks (or clarify anything that I have said). Branford has a web site, so check out the site at http://www.bera.org for the calendar of events.
If you have spare time maybe you can go up to Branford and help them out. I've been working in the the shop with those kind folks repairing the Museum equipment (cars, signals, etc.) in whatever way I can.
In all honesty, I think that someday 6688 should be restored to her former glory of maroon red with the old canvas signage in the windows. Someone tells me the R17 will be in the shop for work in April.
Cheers,
A Branford Member
Thanks for the tip on the Web site, I didn't have it, now I do.
Re: Helping out, my understanding is the membership fee is the same whether you're a part time or more regular helper/operator. I am tempted, as my mom lives up the raod a piece (about 1 hour). My problem is the wife, she just doesn't understand this fashionation with "those dirty old subways".
Mr t__:^)
<How about the heavy rail cars in ME, are they normally running or only on special days/events ? >>
We run into the same electricity complications that Constantine spoke of at Branford up at Seashore. Also, we have 2 loops(one at each end of the line), and I believe a larger incline on our mainline than Branford, so there is a MUCH bigger draw on current for a heavy rail car(800,1440, 420 etc.) in our neck of the woods. For the most part, they only come out for VERY special events(trolley parades, members days, etc.), and might see some mainline time if either a) all the moons are in line, or b)probably if someone makes a serious donation to the power costs of the trip.
Unfortuantely, I have not had the pleasure of coming to Branford for a NY Day yet(since I joined Seashore). It seems to coincide with our members weekend year after year. I'll get down there soon!
Jeremy
Thanks for the input ... I'm thinking of a Warehoue Point or ME trip in the near future.
Mr t__:^)
<How about the heavy rail cars in ME, are they normally running or only on special days/events ? >>
We run into the same electricity complications that Constantine spoke of at Branford up at Seashore. Also, we have 2 loops(one at each end of the line), and I believe a larger incline on our mainline than Branford, so there is a MUCH bigger draw on current for a heavy rail car(800,1440, 420 etc.) in our neck of the woods. For the most part, they only come out for VERY special events(trolley parades, members days, etc.), and might see some mainline time if either a) all the moons are in line, or b)probably if someone makes a serious donation to the power costs of the trip.
Unfortuantely, I have not had the pleasure of coming to Branford for a NY Day yet(since I joined Seashore). It seems to coincide with our members weekend year after year. I'll get down there soon!
Jeremy
Thanks for the input ... I'm thinking of a Warehoue Point or ME trip in the near future.
Mr t__:^)
Let's get it right. It is Shore Line not Shoreline
The next time I find myself in that neck of the woods again, I will try to make it over. I used to come down on Sunday during my annual college homecoming trip; at the time I would book the last flight out of JFK to Denver in the late afternoon. Lately, I've opted for an earlier flight (out of LaGuardia now), so I can get home a little earlier.
I had a chance to witness a trolley parade at Shore Line in August of 1980, and had a chance to ride on R-9 1689. It was fun to open and close its doors. They also had the H&M car running that day.
Just curious, are you a Jets fan or a Broncos fan?
Next, does RTA run specials on game days? Does the line even go to the stadiums?
-Hank
To be honest, I am a longtime New York sports fan, having lived back East for 13 years. I had mixed feelings when the Giants beat the Broncos in December; back when those two teams met in Super Bowl XXI, I was rooting for the Giants all the way.
I have never thought of myself as a Broncos fan as such. Put it this way: there is only one team I truly bleed for, and that is Notre Dame. I'm a Catholic from South Bend whose grandfather taught at Notre Dame, so that just about sums it up. I was happy for Denver when they won the Super Bowl last year, and am happy for them now. Although I was pulling for Denver yesterday, had the Jets won, I would have pulled for them in the Super Bowl. I remember the Jets beating the Colts in Super Bowl III, BTW.
When the Mets and Rockies meet, or when the Mets and Yankees meet, I'm for the Mets all the way. I will NEVER root against the Mets! I will say I was happy for the Yankees when they won the World Series. It looks as if George and Yogi have buried the hatchet.
Getting back to your question, RTD runs shuttlebuses from various locations in the metro Denver area to Mile High Stadium. The light rail line doesn't run by Mile High; the closest it gets is at Colfax/Auraria, where you can transfer to the Colfax bus. Two-car trains are operated during sporting events on weekends.
A collection of responses.
1) Ooops, yes technically it is Shore Line. But everyone says
it like it were one word, and in fact some of our own merchandise
even spells it this way. Judges say we'd also accept "Branford".
2) There is a larger power cost associated with running the heavier
cars. The penalty is much higher Monday-Friday during the day
because of demand peak charges.
3) These cars, including 6688, are scheduled to operate for public
riding at least two times during the year. New York weekend,
which has been held in early October for the past few years, and Members' Day, which is normally the 2nd or 3rd Saturday in May.
As soon as the 1999 program schedule is available, it will appear
on the www.bera.org web site.
4) On Members' Day, members of the museum are invited to operate
the equipment, including the subway and elevated cars, under supervision of a qualified pilot.
5) Members who have held streetcar qualification at our museum for
two years are invited to expand their qualification to include selected rapid transit cars, after training. Hostler training
(non-passenger moves) is also available to members who are active
in the car shop.
6) Basic membership in the museum is $15 per year, and includes our
monthly newsletter and an unlimited pass. For more information,
including an online membership form, see http://www.bera.org/member.html
Why Jeff, how come you didn't say that before? I wouldn't mind hostler training!
Everything that Mr. H. says is correct. If not for the large power consumption then it would be possible to run the rapid transit cars more often. I must admit that I'm all for Rapid Transit Operation. Unfortunately, rail fans don't always get what they want.
I'm just glad some of these cars were saved. Hopefully a few of the redbirds will be salvaged after their retirement.
It should be noted that another R4 has been officially added to the Transit Museum collection. Car 401 (sometimes designated 491) is a former Jamaica Shop school (training) car. Car is in Coney Island Shop for restoration work (the beginnings of). Two side doors have to be replaced because of an air conditioning unit mounted on it. The spare doors are slated to come from Seashore's R1 175. 175 served as a parts source for R4 800 and R7 1440. The 175 is currently used to store supplies at Seashore.
Pictures of R4 401 (491 - school car) are on this site.
-Constantine
It should be noted that the driving force behind that R4, and the entire TA museum car fleet is a hero in my book. A man I am proud to call friend, Mr. Mike Hanna.
Hi Eric. TSS "east" is watching. I am proud to have acquired many R4s in my private collection in Greenville, NJ.
I think it may take quite a bit of lobbying to get Shore Line to go for a set of Redbirds. Ditto for Seashore and Warehouse Point. I know I brought up the subject of acquiring another R-1/9 at Shore Line, so 1689 could have a partner, so it would be easier to play conductor, etc., etc., and was told, basically, fat chance.
The only possible exception might be if any single R-33s become available.
Jeff, The last bit of engineering I did was when I redesigned the GS circuit of the R-46 Master Controller back in 91 or 92. Engineering took all the credit since they had to sign off on the drawings. I now leave all the engineering to them (hahah).
Actually, with respect to Gene Sansone's book, he likely got the informationfrom the same place I get mine, the "Revenue & Non-Revenue Car Drawing" book.
Thanks for the input and when you find the M-1 info, let me know.
Steve
One of the biggest problems with MCM is the multitude of interlocks and relays required to get the correct cam running in the correct direction and to swap back and forth in the correct sequence. On the Picture Window PCC cars in Boston, the KMC camshaft has an off position, dynamic brake position, coast position, three power positions, and three field shunt positions, in both forward and reverse, for a total of 17. The KMC has 29, and runs up in the third power position, and down in either coast or dynamic brake. And that's on a car without series-parallel transition! The only conventional contactor is the line switch.
BTW MCM is motor-cam-magnetic and SCM is simplefied-cam-magnetic.
The Picture Windows were the first cars with MCM and it was still in use when the second group of 01100 Orange Line cars were delivered in 1958. The latter group were of the series-parallel variety as in NYC. SCM was used on all subsequent car orders with GE equipment, but while the Orange and Blue lines use SCM exclusively, the Red Line uses Westinghouse control, and even went so far as to scrap GE equipped cars first when the 01400s were retired.
GE PCC control, like MCM, is very reliant on interlocks and relays, and it took a lot of cleaning and adjusting to get a GE PCC which hadn't run in 15 years going at Seashore.
Gerry
OOPS - the second camshaft is the KMR...
For a real thrill try GE 17KM3A1 PCC control ("air" cars). That's
pretty complicated, although not as bad as MCM.
An interesting academic question: Why did GE flip-flop so many
times between unit-switch and shaft designs, not to mention the
flirtation with pneumatic designs. Look at the history:
GE-Sprague:All-electric, conductive shaft & fingers, 4 electric logic relays.
MAll-electric, unit-switch.
PCElectropneumatic cam. All logic via cam interlocks.
PCM Electropneumatic cam. Some additional logic relays. A few electropneumatic contactors.
Air PCC Electropneumatic rheostat. Electropneumatic and electric contactors and logic.
Elec PCC Electric cam, contactors, logic
MCMDual electric cams. All logic in cams.
SCMElectric cam, electric contactors, solid-state logic.
The complexities of the GE PCC (Air Car) control, as well as the under-car placement, was one of the primary reasons that GE cars tended to have higher road failure rates. The WH equipment was easier to adjust and maintain than the GE. A shopman making routine adjustments/maintanence on a GE usually got dirt down the back of his neck, so GE's tended to be ignored until they failed. WH cars were more likely to get the routine stuff, so they tended to fail less.
Fortunately the GE air car which I got running is an MU car with 17KM12 instead of 17KM3. The biggest problem was the ABR (accellerating & braking relay) which was both dirty and miswired. In Boston, the GE MU air cars fared pretty well until eventually being retired between 1979 and 1982. Boston had only 1 17KM3 car, and it was junked in 1953!
Our Washington car was built with 17KM3 but upgraded to 17KM12.
The all electrics, which were converted to MU cars in 1960, were the revolving door cars, they would be turned in, checked by the shop (no trouble found), released and turned in again on the next trip. Ours at Seashore had a plug which was beyond anyone's capacity to fix before the charging circuit failed and the car was shunted aside. It hasn't run in 20 years!
I would tend to disagree with that generalization. The GE SCM controller family is perhaps more intricate and more prone to overall failure than the Westinghouse XCB248 family of controller (approximately the same generation of controllers). However, despite it's simplicity, the Westinghouse controller and it's overall reliability, it is far more prone to catastrophic failure. Key to this is that the Westinghouse controller relies on a logic circuit to control coasting current. When the logic senses coast current rise above 140 amps, it orders a contactor, the J/BDC to close and in effect kill the coast current. However, the J/BDC has been proven to be extremely unreliable over the years, despite all of westinghouse's modifications and reccommendations. PATH has also found this problem to be significant. After a dozen years of fighting this system, the NYCT will replace all (1,550) Westinghouse XCB248 controllers with the E-Cam (same as on the R-44) controller over the next two to three years. The GE SCM-1 will remain in service...
In re-reading the above post, I realized that one of points I was trying to make was incomplete. Coasting current should be roughly 35-50 amps. When it excedes 140 amps, the J/BDC is supposed to pull in and pull the current to zero. If this does not occur, the coast current continues to build, especially when coasting at 35 or 40 MPH. When it gets to 300 to 400 amps and higher, the grids begin to overheat, damaging high and low voltage wiring in the vicinity.
I'm assuming XCB248 is WH's part # for "CAM" control? I can't
find my drawings on this, and I don't remember how it works.
Where is J/BDC contactor connected in the main motor circuit?
Btw, Dan's critique of GE control was concerned only with their
"PCC" control, known as 17KM3 (air-electric) or 17KM12 (all-electric)
I would have to concur that it is overly complex and difficult to
service when compared with the WH equivalent.
My critique was based on "drag jobs", which was when you had to push in a disabled car. (Usually your leader.) Most times the drag jobs involved bringing in a 70 or 7100 (our [BTC] GE cars. WH cars (73 & 7400's) had a lower road failure rate. Although WH cars did fail, not as often as GE's. I remember pushing a dead 7100 (my 15 line leader), which failed westbound on Fayette Street between Gay and Holliday Sts. Somebody has a picture of just my feet under the rear end of the 7147, banging on the drawbar pin, which happened to be rusted. A couple of hits with a switch iron freed that one up. Oh, yes, it was pouring rain in April, 1963. BTC's shop forces were up to their proverbial necks in disabled cars. As control equipment was being deluged on a regular basis, it was a minor miracle that more cars didn't fail.
A word of further explanation on "Coasting Current"
On cars with dynamic braking the control circuit sets up in braking mode as soon as power is removed. This involves connecting the motor pairs in parallel, with the starting resistance connected between the fields and armatures of the motors. Thus A1 and A2 acting as generators feed F3 and F4, and A3 and A4 feed F1 and F2. A variable resistor and a limit relay 'braking' coil are connected across one pair of fields. Since this circuit will cause a braking effect immediately, there are adjustments made to have the control circuit merely follow the speed of the car so that braking will begin immediately when called for. On Westinghouse PCCs this involves biasing the limit relay above the normal level by shorting the resistor in series with the braking coil and shunting one pair of fields by closing the F2 contactor. GE also shorts the equivalent resistor, but allows the ABR to close completely before shunting the fields by closing FS1. Thus a GE PCC car will always get a quick burst of dynamic brake before coasting. Both varieties do retard slightly while coasting, but the Westinghouse system will actually add resistance to the circuit on a downgrade by reversing the pilot motor as speed increases. GE's controls will not do this.
The coasting current is the current in one pair of motors (actually the two armatures in one truck and the two fields in the other) as measured across a shunt. The control circuit actually measures the voltage across a pair of fields, since the normal coasting current is far less than the equivalent in motoring, and will not create enough of a magnetic field in the series coil to operate the relay.
If anyone is familiar with the 1948 Red Arrow Cars and have ridden or operated them, you may have noticed a perceptible delay when the operator steps on the brake pedal. This is because there is no coasting circuit and the controller has to catch up to the car speed.
I'll pass the topic back to Steve at this point since I am not as familiar with the circuits in RT cars, but the basic system will be much the same.
Excellent discription Gerry. Of course (for everyone else) connecting the fields of the motors of one truck with the armatures of the motors of the other truck and vice-versa, this is what is meant by cross excitation. In MU cars, it works the same way using the t/line wires to tell each successive controller what going on up front. On NYCT cars, when the 3 wire is hot, all cars are told to run to coast and prepare for braking. What is critical is that this is independent of the speed of the train but the current generated is not(meaning: the faster the train coasts, the more current will be generated).
My favorite example of this was the run between Columbus Circle and 125th St on A3 track (IND). Before the speeds were lowered, the train operator would be in power for roughly the first 2 minutes of the run and then if he was experienced, could coast for the next 5 minutes.
For argument sake, lets say a train is traveling at 45 MPH and brakes at 3 MPH/Sec., the train would take just 15 seconds to stop in full service. Smooth out the stop and you still have a maximum of 20-25 seconds of generating dynamic brake current. The grids will handle the dynamic currents for this length of time without a problem. However, if coasting current is not controlled, it can approach the levels equal to that of dynamic braking. The grids were never designed to withstand several minutes of high currents. Therefore, if coasting current is not controlled, the grids will overheat and melt. The train operator may feel a slight pull-back on his train but if it's only one car, he may never notice it. This is the critical weakness of the Westinghouse control package. The devices used to control the coasting current, the J/BDC (J switch/Build down contactor) and the JMR relay, are notoriously unreliable. This is why I perfer GE control packages.
6398 suffers from this problem, however I have been more concerned with the cosmetics as of late. Soon, very soon.
Your example of the express jaunt from 59th to 125th hits right at home. I remember, on a northbound A train of R-10s, it seemed that the train continued to gather speed until it reached the storage track between 72nd and 81st, at which point it was flying. From there on, it was off to the races. It's a shame the R-10s didn't have speedometers. I would have loved to have seen exactly how fast they were going.
Here's a tech question for Gerry: Have you worked on GE
air-electric (17KM3A1) PCC control? Branford's 1001 has it.
According to the GE "documentation", the following happens
in conjunction with coast and brake.
While the car is motoring, an awkward contraption called the
spotting relay is supposed to track the car's speed by measuring
the voltage developed across one of the motor field windings.
The position of the spotting relay's rotor corresponds to the
speed of the car.
When the car goes from power to coast (both pedals are up), the
B1/2/3 contactors come in to create the figure-8 dynamic braking
circuit. The fields, however, are fully shunted. Therefore,
little EMF or torque is developed. The spotting relay is supposed
to now command the main resistance drum (and TS and C2 which
effectively multiply the number of notches by 4) to the proper position based on the speed of the car at shut-off.
During coasting, the Accel/Brake Relay (ABR) regulates current.
The shunt winding on the armature is used and the resistance normally in series with it is partially shunted. This yields a setpoint of
approx 10%, so the ABR tries to maintain 20-30A of coasting dynamic brake ("spotting") current. The drum (and TS and C2) therefore
progress to maintain this as the car slows.
When the brake pedal is depressed, the fields are unshunted.
The resistance in series with the shunt coil of ABR is increased
and the ABR acts to regulate braking current in the 0-400A range,
depending on how far down the brake pedal is pressed. The drum
continues to progress accordingly.
If you're not intimately familiar with this control, well, consider
this a tutorial. Otherwise, let me know and perhaps you could
answer a vexing question I have....after studying the circuit
diagrams and verifying the actual wiring, I do not believe that
the spotting circuit actually works as described.
The description of the ABR and its related circuits all match the 17KM12 pretty closely. The big difference here is the air control and the four pass cycle as opposed to two on the 17KM12.
On the 17KM12, the B3 contactor controls the direction of the drum, and the ABR controls the speed of the drum. There is a device called a coasting relay, which sets up the various ABR circuits based on the No. 6 train line wire. (on coast/off brake)
The actual spotting is done by the ABR. The spotting relay on the 17KM3 seems to be a device to determine where in the cycle the drum is and make sure that the drum is operating in the right direction and that the right contactors are in to match the speed.
I always have wondered just how the 17KM3 was controlled, it took a while to master the 17KM12. If you think this is a little heavy for subtalk - e-mail me!
Yep, I think I'll take it offline and email you since this forum
pertains mostly to NYC subway stuff, and PCC controls are a little
off-topic.
One more point:
Armature Voltage as opposed to Field Voltage is more porportional to car speed, and is independent of the reverser when motoring.
Steve: They don't make rubber bands like they used to. But seriously I've learned a lot from your disertations on the complexities of the electrical and coupling systems of the equiptment.Many thanks for the info. Redbird
Does anyone know when? I dont want to miss the Redbird farewell.
Perhaps the M line would get some R143's, sufficient to cover the Nite/Weekend/ Holiday shuttle service. Perhaps OPTO is in the future?
Hi,
One Person Train Op would be a good idea with the M's short route.
- Jose
Are there plans to add information on trolleys? I see that there's something on the history of buses on the site
Just seen the movie "The Siege" which opened in England this weekend.
Without spoiling it for those that haven't seen it yet.....RTS 5187 is
destroyed in the film, shot in Brooklyn and Lower Manhattan.
Any info about this bus......was it surplus before the movie company got it??? any other links related to this bus???
Regards
Rob :^)
Sorry but I don't know, but on the topic I just wonder if there are ways of geting a hold on one of those buses. Do they ever auction one off or sell them?
I saw the movie and I thought it was 5287, but I could be wrong. It's quite possible that it was an old NYCTA bus. Usually I can spot a bus that's not a legit NYCTA bus in movies. NYCTA is now taking delivery of Nova RTS, numbered in the 5000 series, before this - NYCTA has never had RTS numbered in the 5000 series.
Bus looked "legit" it had"purchased by the port authority" lettering where New York City bus lettering usually is and also displayed a circular "depot" logo...so some research obviously done !
Good film though!!!!!!!
Rob :^)
The bus used in the movie was actually a MTA NYCT BUS, but the number had been changed as there was and still no 5187 in the TMC RTS or NOVABUS fleet as it has not been delivered yet. 5187 will be a 1999 Nova bus and is expected to be assigned to the Westside Depot in Manhattan The depot sticker on the bus came from Flatbush Depot. If I can I will try to find out the # of the bus this week that was purchased for the movie
I can't wait to see the RTS bus blow up. While they are at it maybe a train or two of R-44s. While they are at it, light a few sticks at 370 Jay Street.
The number was 5287. For purposes of filming, 2 scrapped 1981 RTS' were purchased by the movie company from the scrap company. 5287 was was never used by NYCT as an RTS number.
Wasn't 4199 the 'Blue Bus'? That's a frequent movie/tv star. It's been in several episodes of Law and Order, and I think I saw it on Spin City once.
Speaking of Law and Order, a recent repeat on A&E had the cops running to catch a train for montreal from Penn Station, which as a filming location seemed to be Hoboken Terminal.
-Hank
One day during the filming of that movie, I saw 4199 at Manhattan & Nassau Ave's in Greenpoint. It was not "the 4199" belonging to Kingsbridge. It had a worn out Castleton sticker on the rear left. I also saw in the shadows the real number: 1648. That bus is ownred by a private movie company supplier, so that actual bus can & will be seen in various movies with the number being changed.
There's a Staten Island company that provides cars to movie compnanys in NYC called 'Movie Cars' or something like that. He was by the Stapleton station, but vandalism (rocks thrown from the trestle) prompted him to complain to the city so much they gave him a sweetheart storage deal at the old Homeport.
-Hank
I work with automated building controls, both pnuematic and electronic.
I am looking for information on the operation of track relays in the N.Y.C. Transit system.I believe that they operate on the shunt principle.I have downloaded NXSYS ,but it pertained more to tower operations.I would appreciate any websites.Please E mail me
Thanks John
The following is a long and technical post which contains information
that I've never seen on the net. I hope this is helpful.
The track relays in use in the NYC subway system are, to the best of
my knowledge, all 2-phase AC track relays, either USS Model 15, GRS Model 2A
or GRS Model B-2. The system uses single insulated joints (as opposed to
double IJs and impedance bonds) and uses mostly 60 cycle AC, although 25 cycle
is still in use in a few older parts of the IRT and BMT.
I will describe the operation of the track circuit when used with the GRS
2A track relay. Other track circuits are similar in principle.
I don't know of any websites that provide this information per se, so
I'll reproduce it below in ASCIIgrafix. Please excuse the crudeness
of the diagram, but I know of no way to attach a drawing to a subtalk post.
AC signal power is distributed at high voltage (2400, I think) and stepped
down locally at each signal box location to 110 AC. The track transformer
steps this down to a voltage that is varied based on block length but is
typically 6-12 volts (open circuit, i.e. no train in the circuit). The
voltage is applied across the rails via 'bootlegs' which are small pieces
of wire that jut out from the trackbed and are attached to the web of the
rail via a compression fitting. You can see these from the platform.
Track voltage is always applied from the far end of the block, with respect
to the normal direction of traffic, and is received by the track relay which
is located at the near end of the block, near the signal that protects
the block. The 1 ohm resistor in the track transformer circuit is to limit
the short-circuit current through the transformer when a train is standing
directly across the bootlegs.
On a single-insulated system, one rail has insulated joints, the other is
continuously bonded. The latter, "return" rail is connected at various
points to the traction power ground return via huge (500MCM) feeder cables.
The return rail carries all of the traction return current, which can be
sizable. A 10 car train draws about 4000A on starting.
If for some reason the return rail were to become an open circuit between
the train and the nearest traction feeder attachment point (or become
high-resistance), as can happen when a rail joint fails, that traction
current, which is the tail end of 600VDC, is going to want to get back
to ground somehow. For the sake of illustration, let's say the nearest
traction bonding point is at point 'c' in the return rail. The front
of the train is at a-a, and there is a break in the bonding of the
return rail at point 'b'. Traction current is going to see a low DC
resistance from point a, via the signal rail, through the resistor
and secondary of the track transformer, around the break at 'b', and
back to the return rail. The 7A fuse is there to protect the secondary
winding against the catastrophic damage that would result if several
thousand amps tried to flow through it. Easier to replace a $2 fuse than
a $200 track transformer.
Now, back to vital train detection theory. When explaining track circuits,
the first cut explanation says "you hang a relay across the rails at
the head of the block, and the only way it can pick up is if voltage
gets to it from the far end of the block, which can only happen if the
block is clear and there are no broken rails". In actuality, the circuit
is a little more complicated than this. Look at the left insulated joint.
What happens if it fails and no longer separates Block 10 from Block 11?
You could get a false clear. The track relay would be receiving energy
from the previous block and a train at a-a might not shunt the circuit
because the energy source is a lot closer than the shunt and there is
a bit of impedance in the track.
With DC track circuits, which you'll only find on non-electrified lines
for what should be obvious reasons, you fix this by using opposing polarity
at each insulated joint and using polarity-sensitive track relays.
So, for argument's sake, in Block 11, the signal rail would be the positive
rail, and in blocks 10 and 12, the signal rail would be negative. An
insulated joint failure would provide the wrong polarity voltage across
the track relay and it wouldn't pick up.
Well, how do you do this in AC track circuits? Given two wires with an
AC voltage across them, there is no real sense of polarity without some
outside reference source, because the relative polarity of the wires
reverses 50 or 120 times per second. But, we do have a global reference,
namely the AC signal mains.
"Polarity" sensitive AC relays have two windings. One winding is connected
to the track circuit, the other to a local reference voltage, which is
typically 55 VAC and is provided from another winding of the track xfrmr.
The GRS 2A track relay has a small rotary armature. If there is current
flowing in the track winding, and its phase matches that of the current
flowing in the reference winding, the armature rotates
in the correct direction to pick up the contact arm. If the polarity
is reversed, the armature will want to rotate in the other direction,
which will not clear the relay. If either winding has no current flowing
through it, the armature will not move at all, and gravity will drop
the contact arm down. Therefore, the only way this relay can fail is
to "fail safe". It can falsely indicate a train in the block, but it won't
give a false clear.
Because energy is supplied to the relay via the local reference winding,
the relay is extremely sensitive and will pick up with about 10 mA in
the track winding. That's pretty good considering the relay weighs about
20 pounds and the contact arm that is being lifted is a few pounds.
Compare with a 3-phase HVAC contactor of similar size that might require
1/2A at 24VAC to engage.
OK, so what's that box with the "L" and "R"? An additional circuit
trick. There will always be a little bit of DC inbalance in a single-joint
track circuit resulting from traction current. There is no way the track
relay can falsely pick up from DC current flowing through it, since
it depends on the rotating magnetic field being set up by 2 AC currents
to turn the rotor. But, iron has this funny nonlinear B-H relationship
between excitation current and magnetic flux. A DC current will induce
a static magnetic field that will drive the iron into saturation and
generally mess up all of the AC properties of the relay and make it
fail (safe). That's kind of a pain to have the track relay drop out whenever
a train takes power in the block.
The clever way that is dealt with is as follows. First, the track relay
in fact has 4 windings: one PAIR of local windings and one PAIR of track
windings. The local windings are simply connected in parallel. One leg
of the track circuit is run through a "balancing reactor",
which is a device containing a resistor and an inductor in series, with
a tap between R and L. The inductor has the same DC resistance as the
resistor. DC current enters this balancer in the center and sees an
equal resistance path through either the inductor or the resistor and on
through one of the two identical track windings back to the other side of
the track circuit. Therefore, equal DC currents enter in opposing polarities
and the net DC field is 0. The AC track current, which we want to sense,
sees a much higher impedance through the inductor than the resistor and
therefore flows unequally, with most of it going through one half of the
track winding where it causes the rotor to turn.
The fuse is there to protect the track relay against traction return
current. The resistor can be adjusted along with the track transformer
voltage to establish the correct sensitivity for the track circuit.
Typical practice is that the track circuit must shunt (detect a train)
if a shunt of 0.06 ohms (60 milliohms) or LESS is placed across the rails
at ANY point within the track circuit. 0.06 is assumed to be equivalent
to the worst-case (maximum) shunting resistance of a train. Certain
specialty work cars (e.g. the Sperry Rail Car) exceed this shunting value
and require special protection because the signal system is not guaranteed
to detect their presence.
110VAC-------+-------------------------------------------+-------------
| |
110VAC------------------------+------------------------------------------+
| | | |
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv Track Xfrmr vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
^^^^^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^
| | 1 Ohm | |
| | +/\/\/\-+ |
| | | |
| | Fuse 7A S |
IJ | | | IJ |
===========| |+=======================a============+=| |====================
Block 10 | Block 11 "signal" rail Block 12|
| "return" rail |----------+
================+=====================a=======b======+=================c====
| | |---|--+
|------| | | +--|---+
| | VVVVV VVVVV
| +--+
| | L|-----+
| | R|-+ > ROTOR
| +--+ | >
S Fuse | +-+
| | | >
| | | >
| +---+
| |
| 1-2 Ohms |
+---/\/\/\/\---+
1.He needed a train for trainspotting. 2.He got mad after having to use the PORT AUTHORITY BUS TERMINAL washrooms.3.Did not like Bombardier- Kawasaki trains wanted an all american one.4.He did'nt have the correct fare-his ape suit had no pockets to hold subway tokens in.5.After too much shift work he went BANANAS.6.Some one let him off his leash after too much Starbucks coffee.7.His girl left him for a chimp and flew back to HOLLYWOOD.
I've always assumed that King Kong tore down the 6 Avenue El, but I'm trying to remember if the el had two or three tracks in the movie.If it had three then I don't think it could have been 6 Av,maybe 9 Av. Of course this is the real King Kong we are talking about and not that 1970's imposter who did a number on the J train.
Redbird
<< I've always assumed that King Kong tore down the 6 Avenue El, but I'm trying to remember if the el had two or three tracks in the movie.If it had three then I don't think it could have been 6 Av,maybe 9 Av. >>
Had the be the 6th. Ran past the Empire State Building, didn't it?
I don't know Dave. The King may have been coming from the East Side and missed the 34 Street Trolley so he decided to ride the 3 Avenue El.
It's obvious Kong was just trying to help out the city. He obviously knew the IND Sixth Ave. line was being built in 1933 and that the Sixth Ave. Elevated would no longer be needed, so that was the natural line to tear down.
Kong wasn't stupid enough to tear down the Second or Third Ave. Els when there was no replacement being built for them. That's why we have politicians.
He probably got fed up waiting for the West End Line to arrive
If I remember the 1976 movie correctly, King Kong waylaid a 95th Street-bound "RR" train, which was made up of R-16s led by #6316.
In the interior mockup shots they got the angled door pockets and porthole storm door right but got the fans wrong - they were too small.
Wayne
Wayne: What on earth was the RR doing above ground in Brooklyn? It certainly wasn't the Astoria elevated that he tore down.
Redbird
Yes I do believe it WAS [supposed to be] the Astoria Line in the 1976 King Kong. Don't forget, King Kong was being debuted at Shea Stadium, so perhaps he merely waded along the Grand Central Parkway (imagine the traffic jam!).
I clearly remember the green "RR" sign over the end door of the doomed R16. He really didn't tear the el down; merely derailed the "RR" and tore up some of the track. He was slightly zapped by the third rail too.
And in the original 1931 Kong, that was Lo-V Steinway motor #4977 that felt the King's wrath.
Wayne
Wayne: This gets curiouser and curiouser.What was a Steinway doing on the 6 Avenue El.if it was the 6 Av El?
As for that 1970's imposter you might be right but I seem to recall that a short time after beating up the RR he turned up at the WTC so I always assumed it was the Broadway-Brooklyn El. I suppose I'll have to break down and rent the two films now to find out.
Was it the "Crocodile Dundee" movie where there was a subway scene shot at Hoyt St(IND) I believe where they used at least five different trains for one scene and the diffences were obvious even to the laymen.
That might have been "The Warriors", which had featured some scenes shot at Hoyt-Schermerhorn. As for our friend Croc, the final scene was shot at a really great place - the abandoned Lower Level at 9th Avenue on the "B". Look close - you will see the "9th Avenue" tablets and the 1915 Vickers art deco "Globes" frieze even though the station is signed up as "Times Square" or whatever. BTW even though the lower level of 9th Avenue is long closed and the tiles may have fallen from the walls, there are glimpses of what it looked like (at least the "globes" pattern) visible in the stationhouse and stairwells. Nice pale deco aqua with blue, brown and yellow accents.
Wayne
The lower level at 9th Ave. was labeled as 59th St.-Columbus Circle in Crocodile Dundee. The IND service information above the tracks was correct.
In The Warriors, Hoyt-Schermerhorn was disguised as 96th St. There was no continuity whatsoever in terms of train markings.
Hoyt-Schermerhorn was used for two different station disguises in Nighthawks - 57th St and 42nd St. It was also used for Crocodile Dundee II - and was actually labeled as such!! One of the outer platforms was used, along with an A train of R-38s.
Getting back to King Kong, he tears up the 6th Ave. el just before it turns west onto 53rd St. Why? He was looking for Fay Wray's character. It had two tracks in the movie. As for the Lo-V, it obviously couldn't run on the el, but as has been said before, the average Joe Moviegoer probably wouldn't know the difference.
P. S. Construction of the 6th Ave. subway began in earnest in 1936-37. It had been deferred until the Fulton St. subway had opened to Rockaway Ave.
I think you are looking too deep into things for the motivation when the answer is quite simple. Itr was his first starring role, it was in the script and he didn't want to lose his S.A.G. card. The story that Anne Darrow became homeless when she was fired from her job with the IRT after a sex harassment suit is only urban legend.
I think you are looking too deep into things for the motivation when the answer is quite simple. It was his first starring role, it was in the script and he didn't want to lose his S.A.G. card. The story that Anne Darrow became homeless when she was fired from her job with the IRT after a sex harassment suit is only urban legend.
Fay Wray always said that she played opposite the biggest leading man in Hollywood.
Whatever happened to Fay Wray?
;)
-Hank
<< Whatever happened to Fay Wray? >>
She Fay-ded away....
---Dave
Could we have a rim shot, please? How about a Horshak (sp) laugh?
Two other possibilities as to why Kong took out his fury on the 6th Ave el:
1. He tried to unsuccessfully punch out a BMT standard and hurt his fist; didn't hurt the standard one bit.
2. He tried to lift a Triplex train off the track, but it was too heavy.
Maybe he took a chunk out of his knuckle on the corner of the safety bar trying to take out a Slant R40.:o)
Wayne
Nope. She went 'Ape-S--t'.
:p
Now name the movie :)
-Hank
Do they conduct tours of the so-called sealed track that has an acess at atlantic ave and court street?
Yes, tours are given. I believe the next one will be in the spring. Contact Bob Diamond at bowtrolley@email.msn.com.
There's info on the tunnel and the Brooklyn trolley museum project at http://bjr.acf.nyu.edu/railinfo/text/btm.html.
Thanks for the info. Tom!!!!!
Dave,
I was browsing the site and came across the Newark City Subway PCC page. I noticed that some of the captions of [pre-NJT] photographs are incorrectly marked as "NJT PCC #. . . ", when they should be "PSNJ, or Public Service PCC . . . "
Just thought I'd point that out.
Dear Friends: If fortune smiles I may be down in the Miami area soon and of course plan to vist the Miami Metro and the AGT System(Automated Guideway Transit/People Mover).I know there are people movers in Jacksonville,Orlando Airport,Walt Disney World. Does anyone know if there are additional system at say Miami Airport or Tampa Airport or someplace else? Thanks again for this and all previous answers.
Redbird
Try the following website for Florida Transportation providers. www.apta.com/sites/transus/fl.htm
Thanks much.Redbird
Tampa Airport has a shuttle system running between the main terminal and the gate areas. Two car "trains" are used;each "train" has its own separate track. The appearance is that of a horizontal elevator. Airport people tell me the system was designed by an elevator company (Otis?) and uses elevator type technology. The ride takes less than 1 minute.
Fitz: Thank you. It sounds very much like the Orlando Airport System.
Redbird
Tampa International Airport also has one of it's people movers in a single car setup. I think it's the one that goes to the now closed Airside D?
Gonzo
Thanks. I might get a chance to check it out.
Redbird
As I recall,the entire system originally used single cars. The additional cars were added as the airport expanded. At the time of my last visit (November),two car units seemed to be the rule. If they ever finish whatever it is they're doing at Airside D,I expect that it will also go to two car units.
Hi again,
Now that I know somewhat about the future of the R-142s and R-143s, could anyone who knows tell me about what the MTA plans for the B/Q once the construction at Queens Plaza is complete?
I have a feeling that the G will now start at Court Square because of this?
- Jose
I was through there Saturday - got a local-only southbound "E" which took us on the newly-constructed local track. There is an army of men and machines down there! The construction is proceeding nicely - the shells of the connection track and their trackbeds are in place. They are still doing ironwork and concrete work, though. Northbound there was no local service. Our "E" (R32s) took a wicked left-right leaving Queens Plaza which I believe led us to the old layup track.
Since "B" service goes up CPW during the day, "Q" service should make its debut along Queens Boulevard. I have no information about the final plans, however. There also may be a rush-hour "V" train as well.
Wayne
Thanks for writing.
So if the Q is extended (along the local I assume) and there's a rush-hour V train, there would be 5 lines at once!
This would also mean that Roosevelt Ave/Jackson Heights would be a big transfer point, since the project won't take the Q or V to Queens Plaza.
- Jose
I have read a lot of speculation here as what some would like to see the TA do when the connection opens. I'm sure that many ideas as to service plans & proposals are being floated around at Jay St. with no decisions made as of yet since they have a couple of years for them to make their decision as to the service plan.
You're right - Roosevelt Ave. will become an even more significant transfer station than it is now. One scenario being tossed around includes running the Q to Continental Ave. and the new V to 179th St. Both would run express; the F would become a local. The E and R would not change. The G will be permanently cut back to Court Square; that appears to be a done deal.
Assuming that this happens, what will be of the V, and where will its other destination be? The color determines whether it follows 7th Ave/Broadway (R line), 8th Ave (E Line) or 6th Ave (F Line).
I'm not sure if it is too early to ask.
- Jose
It's either the Q or the V, not both (unless the Q is returned to Broadway by that time). The V would go to second Av, or perhaps somewhere out along the Culver route (especially if the Manhattan Bridge is completely closed) If it's fully open, then the V could provide an additional Southern div service (but I've never heard any plan like this, and once again, it would only be with the Q back on Broadway)
The F would never become the local, (unless they move it to 63rd, and send the V through 53rd). 53rd St feeds directly into the express, while 63rd forks into both express and local, so sending 53rd St service local would mean more switching, and perhaps bottlenecks.
Right, its two locala and two expresses through to Manhattan after 63rd St opens. One thing they could do is have the expresses bypass Roosevelt Ave during rush hours. Those in outer Queens would have the option of stopping at Queens Plaza (E) or going straight to the new tunnel (F) at Forest Hills. Those in inner areas would have the same choices -- to Queens Plaza (R) or right in (Q or V). The stop at Roosevelt could be resumed off peak.
How would you like to hear "next stop Roosevelt Island" in Forest Hills?
Then the train would have to skip 21st-Queensbridge.
-Hank
Well, the V signs on the trains are Orange with a 'via Sixth Ave' message, and there is also a yellow W sign (I cna't remember the legend)
I wouldn't be surprised if they instituted some type of skip-stop local service on Queens Blvd. You'd have the R and V as skip-stop 6th/Bway service, the E, F, and Q Express....
-Hank
I was at Court St last year and it seems that track E2 has been redesignated D2. I wonder why this was necessary? I know that Court St will become a terminal when the Queens Plaza construction is done. Is E2/D2 to be the only connecting track to the Queens Mainline?
So what would happen with the stretch of track between Court Square and Queens Plaza? Will it be used for train storage or can they use it to put the 'G' on Queens Blvd. at another time?
Depending on where G trains are laid up, that track connection could still be used for yard moves. They'd be crazy to tear it out.
And there is still D5, east of Queens Plaza. It is now a lead to D4 (Queensbound exp) while the area is reconfigured for the connection, but will in the end become a center layup again. In fact, there will be no reason they could not terminate off-hour G trains at Queens Plaza again, since that is where they terminated the whole time before the construction. (the new cnnection is past this point, so new 63rd St service would not be affected)
That is one wicked switch curve going out of Queens Plaza from D4 to D5. The E train of Phase II R32s I was on Sat.afternoon screamed and howled as the operator swung into it, accelerating as he went.
Wayne
Did anyone hear the news about two LIRR car burned by arson on Saturday evenings news on CBS radio?
It happened on a lap-up track just east of the Huntington station before the electricifaction ends as Park Avenue.
It disrupted service for thre hours according to an article in todays Newsday.
check the article at www.newsday.com
It seems to be an unlucky spot. About 10 years ago a west boound Port-Jeff / Huntington shuttle hit a low-boy carrying a front end loader that had gotten stuck at Park Avenue. Two M-1's were destroyed. The Power Pack engine ended up facing East alongside Kleet Lumber and the front end loader ended up in Kleet Lumber
And two MP-75 coaches (#2704 and #2711) bit the bluddy dust as well.
The M-1 that got its face messed up had its number re-issued.
By the way did this incident involve M-1s/M-3s or MP-75 coaches?
The article described the cars as being made of "heavy steel"
Wayne
Can anyone assist me in obtaining a written listing
of the IRT Destination Signs R33 R62 (circa 1990s)
Thanks
Steve
FDNY
This is another request for assistance
Can anyone assist me in obtaining Routing Details of the Queensboro Bridge Shuttle operated by Queens Surface Transit
Thank you
Steve
There was talk ,during the LIC Transportation Study,of a shuttle to be funded and operated for the Steinway Merchants Association
Does anyone have any further details
===Did this ever start running??
THank you
Steve
I asked the "suit" of our Transportation dept. about this. To his knowledge, no one at DOT has asked us to provide any such service (our Q101 plys Steinway street).
P.S. Re the FREE shuttle across the 59th Street bridge ... once the walkway/bikeway comes back (once construction finishes) that NYC bargin will go by by).
Mr t__:^)
The Steinway merchants don't like paying taxes, but they want the city to build them a parking garage. Someone in my agency said she told them "the era of big government is over."
Clearly they want to tap into the growth on Northern Blvd, which would be no bad thing. Of course those with a pass can take a train to Northern Blvd and bus us Steinway after that, as long as they don't run afoul of the 18 minute rule.
Lexington Av-63 St Station was built on two levels with two tracks and a single island platform on each level.The north tracks were for the 2 Avenue Subway and the south tracks for the 63 St Line to Queeens.All four tracks are in place but the 2 Avenue tracks end at bumpers at the east end of the station. I would like to know why the TA built that great big wall down the middle of the station. This will require major reconstruction if the 2 Avenue Subway is ever built.(Yes,yes I also believe in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy)
Redbird
The MTA is now studying the East Side
1--2 Av from 63 st to 125 Lex Av Subway
2--LRV in Lower Manahttan
3--Various Bus Route improvements on the Lower East Side
This is part of the MESA study
---I have the Engineering Drawings
The 2nd Av Subway will come off your 63 st Tunnel
,and proceed under 2 av to approx 123 st
will then veer west to connect via a passageway to
the IRT Lexington Av Subway
The MESA study proposes to run 2nd Avenue trains across 63rd Street and down the Broadway BMT express tracks (to City Hall, Whitehall St., or Brooklyn, perhaps depending on the time of day).
There is also a Lower Manhattan Access Study which is looking at various options for the lower part of the 2nd Avenue line, including a spur to Grand Central and dual subway-Metro North service below 42nd Street.
I suspect the reason for two different studies is that the MTA wants to revive the 2nd Avenue line, but they don't want to do it as one massive project. They would do the upper part first because there are two segments completed in East Harlem (1972-78) and there is unused capacity on the Broadway BMT.
The upper portion of the line would almost have to head west at 63rd Street, since there's no driect transfer points at Second Ave. except for (under the proposal), Grand St., Houston St. and 14th Street, unless they build a United Nations stop on the No. 7 and connect it to a new Second Ave. line. Otherwise, it would make the line useless for anyone trying to go from the upper east side to the west side of midtown Manhattan.
Concerning this issue,
1. Were there ever plans to have a subway under 34th St.? I don't live in NYC, but how useful would a line there be(in terms of bringing passengers from Queens, say a Penn Station-Bell Blvd(Queens) line)? I don't think quite THAT far out in Queens, though.
2. Why wasn't there a station at around Avenue D on the 'L' in Manhattan(Lower East Side[and where is Alphabet City???])
Did somebody kill that or was it just never in the plan?
3. And finally, about the suggested station at the UN, how deep would that station be? Since the East River is about a block away I would assume it to need a good long elevator.
[Why wasn't there a station at around Avenue D on the 'L' in Manhattan(Lower East Side[and where is Alphabet City???])
Did somebody kill that or was it just never in the plan?]
As far as I know there never had been a plan for an Avenue D station. That's most likely because the L tunnel is close to the river crossing and hence quite deep at that location.
In the 1960s or 70s, there were plans floated for a "jughandle" loop serving Avenue C, not too far from where an Avenue D station on the L would have been located. It was part of a much broader expansion plan that never went anywhere.
Alphabet City refers to the areas around Avenues A, B, C and D on the east side of Manhattan, south of 14th Street. Avenue A is the westernmost of the avenues with Avenue D closest to the East River. The area hit hard times in the 1970s and 80s, being noted as a center of the drug trade and its associated violence. Much of the area has since been on the upswing, with Avenue A in particular being quite trendy (though the eastern end, by Avenues C and D, is still rather skanky in parts). A complete renovation of Tompkins Square Park, which is right in the center of the neighborhood, was a major factor in this revival. Many people who are priced out of more established neighborhoods have been moving to Alphabet City. My prediction - if this hasn't already begun - is that the very name Alphabet City will slowly fall out of use and be replaced with something trendier :-)
Just a quick follow-up to this. Those who moved to Alphabet city to escape rising rents only delayed the inevitable. I've never witnessed a faster gentrification of an area. There are very few blocks in the east village that do not have new apartment buildings under construction - especially between B and C. This of course will only agrivate the need for subway station closer than Lexington, 14th street or 2nd & Houston.
[re growth in Alphabet City]
I suppose that rapid development could make a subway stop useful. I can't figure out where one could be built, except maybe for a (very deep) Avenue D stop on the L. As far as I know, the Avenue C "jughandle" plan was abandoned at least 30 years ago with no actual construction.
Here at City Planning, we have four answers to the "crisis" of people not being able to afford to live in Manhattan. The Bronx, Brooklyn, Queens and Staten Island. I never could afford to live in Manhattan (without sacrificing other parts of my budget more than I was willing to). What was the subway for, after all?
Back in the early 1980s, when I was a junior economist at the Port Authority, I recall a conversation with someone who was looking for an apartment in Inwood, at the very northern tip of Manhattan. He was complaining about how hard it was. I suggested Kingsbridge, where I was living, just two more stops on the #1. When I get my mail, he replied, I want it addressed to "New York, New York" not the Bronx.
A little later, one of my wife's co-workers was complaining about her Manhattan rents. I suggested Windsor Terrace Brooklyn, where we had moved. You don't move to New York from Minnesota (where she was from) to live in Broooklyn, he replied.
Pleeeze.
<< My prediction - if this hasn't already begun - is that the very name Alphabet City will slowly fall out of use and be replaced with something trendier :-)
It's a little too colorful a name for the comfort of real-estate agents and yuppies, who all are calling it part of the East Village these days. (My favorite bit of RE-speak, though, I saw in a Voice classified ad last year for an apartment on the corner of Rivington and Clinton: "LoHo"--i.e., "Lower-East-Side-Ho.")
On the other hand, now that the Westies are firmly a thing of the past people are starting to say "Hell's Kitchen" again; when that neighborhood was first gentrifying everyone there insisted on the antiseptic "Clinton."
If the Houston Street tunnel leading to the South 4 St. complex in Williamsburg had ever been built as part of the IND 2nd System, we would probably have a station at Houston and Avenue B or C. As things stand, the easiest way to get a little more subway access in the neighborhood would be to open new entrances to the L First Avenue/14 St. station at Avenue A--the platforms extend nearly the full length of the block.
As a matter of fact, there was supposed to be a station east of 2nd Ave. on the Houston St. extension before the East River tunnel.
I don't think there were ever plans for a 34th St subway, but I always thought that was a good idea. I had suggested it should branch off the 2nd Av subway, or connect with the Montauk div. like 63rd St was supposed to. Since the railroad tracks are under 32nd or 33rd St, perhaps use a couple of those tracks and build stations at the main avenues, and youw would already have the tunnel, and just connect it to the Montauk branch in LIC.
There were ideas years ago of a 48th St line.
The 1969 Plan for the City of New York called for "new transit technology" lines on 48th St, 57th St, 34th St, and 23rd St.
Re: 2nd Avenue transfer points:
The original plan had stations at 48th Street and 57th Streets, I think. I believe the Regional Plan Association suggested stations instead at 42nd Street (with a passageway west to the far end of the 7 train platform) and at 53rd Street (with a passage to the E-F trains). Keep in mind that the stations would actually be two or three blocks long (e.g., 42nd-45th Streets and 53rd-56th Streets). Now that thirty years have gone by, the plan will have to be restudied anyway.
Re: Gentrification
It's true that people moving in from other areas usually want to live in Manhattan. But housing costs in the other boroughs are starting to get unreasonable too. The supply of housing throughout the city is not keeping pace with the demand.
Considering what the MTA has done with many of their long tunnels (33rd between Sixth and Seventh, for example), the long transfer tunnels would probably be considered as new off-hours areas for the homeless.
The 63rd St. connection would make a 53rd St. tranfer tunnel mostly redundant, anyway, while a 42nd St. tunnel would have to be over a block long, since the Grand Central Station on the No. 7 begins between Third and Lex. A 14th Street link to the L would be a lot easier, since the Third Ave. station there begins east of Third and runs almost all the way down to Second Ave.
Anyway, if they did extend the Second Av. line past 63rd and down to Houston St., a UN station on thre No. 7, with a Second Ave. transfer (and an entrance right below the Tudor City overpass), would probably be needed for passengers coming from Queens who wanted to go downtown without having to deal with Grand Central or Times Square.
I've often wondered what the complexities involved in creating a UN Station on the 7 would be. Would it be simpler than, say, extending the Shuttle by cut-and-cover to First Avenue?
(Extending the shuttle to 1st Avenue?).
That's my suggestion too. You'd extend the shuttle east, with stations added at 6th Ave (transfer B, D, F, Q) and 5th/Madison Aves, along with a station right over the Lex. The shuttle is one level up from the Lex now, so all you have to do is re-route the corridors. Then it could stop at 3rd, 2nd, and 1st. It could be a fully automated line, with three car light rail trains, no seats (since you'd only ride for a minute or two), doors covering nearly the entire sides of the train, and one train every minute.
Then you could extend the #7 west. Between the two, you'd have a complete crosstown, with double service in the most dense area (Grand Central to Times Square).
Of course, this would probably be #5 on a list of transit priorities, and it unlikely #1 will ever be built. My top five would be:
1. Astoria Line to LGA
2. Connections to improve Brooklyn service/protect against the loss of the Manhattan Bridge
3. 2nd Avenue Line on the Upper East Side.
4. #7 to the west side.
5. Shuttle extension to the east side.
The shuttle may be "one level above" the Lexington Ave. line, but that level is used as the mezzanine for the Grand Central subway station. I don't see how the shuttle tracks could possibly be extended through there. It would require a very major redesign of the station, splitting in in two. Certainly, there would not be room for the shuttle to pass over the Lex. line and still have any sort of mezzanine over the shuttle platforms. I don't think the MTA wants to build new stations with a one-flight-down from street to track level (no crossover) arrangement. And the disruption while 42nd St. was torn up for shallow cut-and-cover construction on the shuttle extension would be awful. With modern elevators and escalators, it might even be easier to build a new station on the #7 line just west of 1st Ave., although that would still be a difficult project, as discussed here before.
You'd have to extend the shuttle down 43rd St and the #7 down 41st St. I agree that 42nd should not be torn up. That's why the 42nd St trolley is not going forward.
It seemed to me that the corridor from the end of the shuttle to the Lex was at the far southern end of the station, and that many other East West corridors are available farther north. Recall that the shuttle is on 42nd, and the station lies north of 42nd.
Given the current terrorism threats and high security such as a cop on the city hall IRT platform while the trains screech around the curve empty, would the UN want a subway station and avenue for terrorists?
It might be better for a second avenue station on the 7 line
To hook up with the Second Av. line in the next millenium (or the one after that), the station would have to be built between First and Second Ave., and probably with elevators at the First Ave. end. It definitnely would have to be put before the cross over, which if I rmember right from the roof collapse incident about 20 years ago, is just east of First Ave.
Parsons was right: stations 50 feet underground are no good. You lose too much time going up and down.
Also, there isn't much at 1st Ave. & 42nd Street. There isn't much on 1st Ave. in either direction, either. More people would find greater convenience if the station were located at 2nd Ave. Given the likely depth underground that a subway station would be that close to the river, it is unlikely that any terrorist could do anything underground that could seriously disrupt the U.N. complex itself.
--mhg
The station could carry the name United Nations, with an exit at the east end below the Tudor City overpass, and then have a Second Avenue exit at it's west end, where the transfer to the long-hoped for Second Avenue line would be located.
I think calling the station `United Nations'would incease the chances of it actually getting built, since the U.N. is a major New York attraction and have a subway stop near there sounds logical. Call the station `Second Avenue' and I think more of a NIMBY reaction (or in this case, a NIMS- not in my subway - reaction) from Flushing line riders would set in, since there would obviously be major delays while the station was being built.
Besides all the problems involving siting, one has to consider that it is difficult to mine out a station shell around an existing deep tunnel. You can't use a shield, its too deep for slurry walls, dynamiting in rock could damage the existing tunnel, and if in soft ground, the earth would be very unstable etc. etc.
If it could be built this would be an expensive station to operate - starting 11 car trains on steep grades.
As far as extending the shuttle east is concerned, remember that the shuttle and Lexington tunnels do connect - and must continue to. The single track which now passes over one track of the Lex line was part of the original subway. Bringing two tracks due east would be disruptive at a minimum but might be feasible. The access from GCT may have to change to accomodate this. The question would be "Is it worth it?"
Another thought was taking over one of the East River Tunnels at 31st or 33rd for a new crosstown line. The fact of the matter is that these tubes are already at their limit. Restricting AMT/LIRR/TNJ traffic to one pair of tubes would result in major service cuts. The only feasible way to connect a Second Av. line to the rest of the system below 63rd would be at 14th St where platforms already exist or at Houston St. Unfortunately the very nature of the system makes connections at 34th, 42nd, 53rd or 59th a difficult undertaking.
Finally, when considering the need for some sort of a connection on the east side, one must ask why the designers of the 53rd and 60th St. tubes didn't include a connection to the els on 2nd & 3rd Avs. Admittedly, politics rules out 53rd, but the city was looking to improve services when the 60th St. hole was bored, and many other connections were made when this line was constructed. (Times Sq, 14th St., Atlantic/Pacific)
Transit on the East Side (the els) therefore had a historic north/south orientation and the 2nd Av subway will resume that trend - IF it is ever built!
As far as extending th 42nd St shuttle east, I was just looking the other day, and was wondering what is above the Mezzanine?
I know it's not the street, or GCT because that is a few flights up the exit stairs. The passageway coming from the shuttle (which the tracks would go through if extended) is higher than the Mezzanine, and connected to it by a ramp. What if instead of the ramp down to the mezzanine, a ramp was built up and over it for the tracks? Does anyone know about this?
The TA was able to build the 59th-Lex express station in the late 1950s, which involved not only digging out the platforms beneath the local but building an underpass beneath the 60th Street tunnel. The Lex express is four levels deep at 59th, so doing the same on 42nd beteen First and Second Aves. should be possible.
As far as the grade goes, it would be steep, but that hasn't stopped the TA in the past. Check out the grade on the south end of the Rector St. platform on the N/R.
I'm pretty sure the underpass that is part of the 59st/Lexington Ave station complex is actually the originally planned tunnel....
From http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/rails/disused.underground.html
Permission assumed, as it is linked to/part of this site
Lexington Ave (partly built)
BRT Broadway Subway.
Open: Never used as a station, as is by 1918. Part used as an underpass, open probably 1918.
Remains: 2 separate tunnels, 1 trackway and platform each.
Best view: The "eastbound" platform section is an underpass between the two platforms used by train 6, 59th St station, near the south end. The "westbound" is visible only as a door high in the south wall of the Lexington Ave station of the N R trains.
The BMT Broadway line (N R) was originally planned to reach Queens by running over the Queensborough Bridge, and because of the narrow streets, separate 1-track subways were planned for it in 59th and 60th Streets. The Lexington Avenue subway was started before the bridge plan was abandoned, and to make things easier later, the work on the Lexington included building the sections of the 1-track lines that crossed right under the Lexington local tracks. The 2-track subway built in 60th Street under the revised plan had to be deeper than the single track since it was approaching a river tunnel.
The underpass (59th St platform) has been renovated, 1995-1996, with new tile that imitates the 1918 style (and so has the express station down below, which dates back to 1962, not 1918).
They did a lovely job restoring the tile at 59th Street (both Lex upper level and BMT). Both stations are faithful to the original Vickers designs; in fact the Lex BMT station is a full restoration, cleaning and reglazement of the original. They did a good job.
The lower level of 59th-Lex IRT now has IND-style tile (without the little black plaques) - the color is Midnight blue with a Hunter green border - a color combination unique to this station.
Did we forget to mention the "Blooming" mosaic in the mezzanine. Definitely unique. See "Station-by-Station" for close-ups of this psychedelia.
Wayne
You are right, the shuttle is at the southern end of the GCT subway station, but that still leaves the issue of crossovers and access to the rest of the station. I do not believe there is room for two levels (crossover+track level) above the Lex. line tracks, which would
make access to/from the new shuttle platforms extemely awkward. And the Lexington Ave. tracks get even closer to the surface south of GCT - at 33rd St. they are one level down from the street.
Moving the suttle platform closer to GC would force them to put in a crossunder, at about the level where you change escalators going down the west end of the 7 platform, not only to get from one side of 42nd to the other, but to get to passngers to the center platform on the shuttle line, since there would no longer be an end-of-platform access area.
If they ever do build the Second Ave. line, adding a UN station on the 7 would make more sence than extending the shuttle eastward, because it would give Second Ave. riders a transfer both to Queens and to the west side of Manhattan, while Flushing line riders a shortcut downtown and acess to the upper east side.
1. Astoria Line to LGA
2. Connections to improve Brooklyn service/protect against the loss of the Manhattan Bridge
3. 2nd Avenue Line on the Upper East Side.
4. #7 to the west side.
5. Shuttle extension to the east side.
The number one priority should be Astoria Line to LGA!??!? No, your number two should be the number one priority. Number 2 will affect all of Brooklyn. Right now service levels over the Manhattan Bridge are far below potential, with that fixed the entire system will improve. The line to LGA will help a large number of people but won't improve the entire system and certainly won't help as large a number of people.
Affect isn't the word. Number two would absolutely cripple Brooklyn if the bridge were to be closed to all subway traffic.
Most likely, the wall was put in to block off the unused trackways leading to the 2nd Ave. line. If that line is ever finished, I would imagine the wall will be removed.
And it won't be that much reconstruction. It was built as a temporary "knockout" wall-- made thin and out of lighter concrete so it could be easily removed.
Steve: The way they do things now days they will probably shut the line down for six months and substitute abus shuttle over the Queensborough Bridge. It didn't seem to make much sense to build a wall where one wasn't needed.Still we will not have to worry about it until they start building the 2 Avenue Subway.(Yes, I still believe in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy.)
Best Wishes, Redbird
Eric: My apologies. That last posting should have been to you,not Steve.Sorry,Redbird
Supposedly Grand Street (B/D/Q), which looks like a 2 track station with side platforms, is really a 4 track station with 2 center island platforms. Originally a cross the platform transfer was proposed from the 6th Ave trunk lines to the second ave subway. 2nd Ave subway trains would stop ou the outside ("local" side) of the platform, 6th Ave trains on the inside. Supposedly the trackways (and some of the platform) are behind the wall.
The thing is, I've never seen a door or any kind of "entrance" that would get behind this wall.
--Mark
I believe Grand St. was designed to be expanded into a 4-track, two island platform station, and that the walls are nothing more than knockout walls. There is a segment of the 2nd Ave. line just south of the station whose trackways spread apart as they approach Grand St.
Is anyone else having trouble with http://www.nycsubway.org? Either I'm having a network problem or a new home page is up with lots of missing info.
I just uploaded a new set of pages. Make sure you aren't looking at an old cached copy. If anyone else does have problems with broken links please clear your cache first then try again.
-Dave
Well, I cleared the cache, and reloaded a few times, and it seems the problem I'm having is that even in 800x600, the page is W I D E., and isn't displaying normally. I need to check it on the desktop here.
-Hank
Using MSIE 4.0 with AOL 4.0 the page is *W-I-D-E* even after clearing my cache, then tried with Netscape 4.04, it displayed without a problem.
Cheers,
Michael Adler
USPS, City Letter Carrier in Denver, ColorFUL Colorado
The problem is caused by a bug in IE 4.0 for PC and the way it reads style sheet (CSS) files. The same page loads perfectly in IE 4.5 for the Mac...
Interesting because I always heard that the support for style sheets in IE was much better than that in Netscape. (I design the site using Netscape 4.x. I don't have, and don't want, an IE installation on my machines.) Anyway , I removed the CSS from the main start page, but I can't remove it from everywhere. I plan to use the CSS more and more as I learn its features.
-Dave
P.S.... many sections of the site have had the CSS for some time now. I had not until now received any complaints.
indeed the new format is nicely laid out, but in Netscrape the background color you have chosen does not work well with my preferencres for white type on black pages. That said, I owe you a VERY LARGE THANKYOU for the site in general.
Well, you're right, but I think that's a bug in Netscape that it doesn't force the background of table cells to be your preferred background. I can't accommodate everyone's weird color choices. The document makes suggestions of black text, white background, yellow colored cells. If NS overrides some of the backgrounds and not others... not much I can do.
-Dave
FYI:
I tried Macintosh versions of Netscape 4.05 and Netscape Communicator 4.5 on two different Power Macs.
All displayed perfectly.
It's different, especially in the 5 hours since I was last on the board. I think what's bugging Timothy is that it doesn't look like the old home page. Subtalk is at the bottom, not like it was, that may be the problem. I usually go right to Subtalk after arrivieng on the Home Page, I did need to look for the link.
Just by chance, is that the SF Pcc in the psuedo BTC Paint on the Home Page?
My cache wasn't the problem, nor was I bothered by the page's different appearance. I could see that the page wasn't loading properly, and it looks like I was right.
Since I test software for a living, I have three computers on my desk and rebuild them from scratch almost daily. It's a real pain not to be able to keep files locally, as well as having to reset my preferences all the time. If anyone ever needs a web page tested on a clean, uncorrupted machine, just drop me an e-mail and I'll pull it up on one of my PC's.
TSS
> My cache wasn't the problem, nor was I bothered by the page's
> different appearance. I could see that the page wasn't loading
> properly, and it looks like I was right.
Hey, it's not like I wasn't taking your comments seriously. "Best viewed using Netscape." :-)
I happen to like the new format, and it waorks fine on all the computeres i use
Unfortunately, I work for a software company that is all but in Microsoft's pocket, so our standard browser is IE4 SP1, but we do have to support all browsers and platforms. I enjoy a break from the routine when I can install Netscape. :)
The page is great. I use IE 3.02(standard version) and Netscape 4.5 with 128 bit encryption. I have no problems with either browser.
To those having problems: The URL for netscape is www.netscape.com
start with the standadr version and then add the 128 bit encryption to it. The current version is commincator 4.5 which has e-mail, and it does have some slight page editing capabilities. Oh yes ti does have a live-update feature. ( I use WIN95).
TO DAVE: The page is great. unfortunately you cant please everyone.
I think the new page is superb! As is the rest of this site. Host to send cheques to....
All subway cars built from the R-10's thru R-42's could and sometimes did mu with each other. Can the R-44's mu with the R-46's and can they in turn mu with the R-68/68A's. Thanks again.
Redbird
In short NO. R-46s and R-44s can't MU with any other cars or each other for 3 reasons. The R-44 and R-46 use an Ohio Brass type coupler while all other NYCT revenue cars (except the R-110s) use an H2C coupler. Therefore, they can only be coupled using an adapter. Second, most NYCT revenue cars other than the 44s, 46s and the 110s use a Wabco BL37 electric portion to make the trainline electrical connections while the 44s and 46 use a NYAB electric portion which is not compatible. R-110s use high tech (RF coupling). Finally, the R-44 uses a Westcode brake system which has no feed valve and therefore the brakepipe is not regulated. Therefore it can go to 135 PSI to 150 PSI where all other NYCT equipment has a feed valve and BP is regulated at 110 PSI. That's the primary reason why R-44 and R-46 can't MU. The R-26s, I believe still use BL26 electric portions and can't be run with other redbirds....
Thanks Steve.Redbird
>The R-26s, I believe still use BL26 electric portions and can't be run with other redbirds....
R26 or R36? If the BL26 is the older, 3-row portion, as opposed
to the newer 4-row portions, then I thought the only cars that
still had the BL26 were the Corona fleet? I remember this came up
in 1991 when we were looking for spare pins to separate the
PA on/off trainline from the H1 heat/fans/ac trainline.
Why would the feed for the P.A. have to come from the electric portion pins? I thought the idea was to have the P.A . on all the time. I notice on some smee equipment if you drop out the HH! circuit breaker you have no trainline mic or amplifier pa. In the old days dropping P.A. CB will drop it out and further when you had kids in the cabs playing around, you could turn off the trainline momentary and trip out the energized mic. You cant do that any more because the PA is probably fed from the circuit breakers themselves, not trainline pins.
Since there was no PA on the original SMEEs (e.g. R10) as delivered
(I think the R16 was the first order delivered with PA, I'm
sure some one will correct me if wrong), it was necessary to kluge
the PA over the existing 21 trainline pins available. The H
trainline (or is it H1 or HH?) was already there to turn the heat
and fans on and off (later the AC too) for the entire train. What
they did is define a third logic level. In addition to OFF (0 Volts)
and ON (38 Volts), a level of 24 Volts is used on the H wire.
Both the HVAC control relay and the PA amp control relay hang
off the H wire. The PA relay is biased so it needs the full 38
volts to pick up. The HVAC relay picks up on 24. Turning off
the Heat/Fan/PA momentary switch in the cab grounds out the H
trainline (via a limiting resistor), dropping out any stick relays,
and leaves the H trainline at 0 volts. No PA, no Heat/Fans.
Turning the Heat/Fan/PA momentary to ON causes the H trainline to
latch at 24 volts via a stick relay. The Heat and Fans are enabled
on the train. The PA amps remain silent. When you press the push-to
-talk button on the PA panel, it applies full 38 Volt battery voltage
to the H trainline and the PA relays pick up and turn on the PA amps,
delivering output to the speakers.
The actual audio signal (as opposed to this control signal) is
carried over the L1 (Lights) trainline. Because the audio signal
is AC, it can be capacitively coupled onto the trainline and not
interfere with or be disturbed by the operation of the L1 trainline.
You need this separate control signal otherwise you will be
continuosly listening to noise (this still happens when the PA relay
is out of adjustment or stuck in).
Obviously this "feature" of not being able to keep the fans off
and use the PA was known for a long time. In 1991 ( I think) there
was a smoke condition in the Clark St tubes and a stuck train
got into trouble with this. I believe there was a fatality indirectly
related to the incident, but don;t quote me. Naturally, this
long-dormant problem all of a sudden became a fresh crisis and
the dept I was working in at the TA at the time had to drop everything
and design a fleet-wide mod to separate the PA and HVAC controls.
I left before it was finished....I think we wound up disconnecting
the Enercon feature (which was using #6 wire) and using that for
PA control on the 3-row-portion cars. The newer cars (R62 up)
already came with 4-row portions and separate HVAC, PA and ICOM
control lines.
I don't know much about the BS 26 of BS 37 IDs but I do know that the portions under the H2c on the redbird equipment overhauled by M&K does have a fourth row of contact pins while the ones rebuilt by 207 Street has only three. When I worked transfers both were compatible; brakes doors and motor power. The only time H2c is not compatible would be when GOH cars are M.U.d to museum smee equipment, as their contact pins do not have their side sign pins, as well as energy cons installed.
As a side question to this, is it possible for the 68/68A to MU with other H2C equipment? Obviously, this won't work for revenue runs, but I don't see any reason it couldn't be done to move equipment.
-Hank
R-68 and R-68A have H2C couplers with BL37 electric portions. They can MU with any other smee car with an H2C coupler and BL37 electric portion. There are two technical 'buts' here but they do not affect compatibility.
The R-11s as delivered could not m. u. with other postwar equipment. #8010 was later modified so it could do so. Mixed consists were the rule on the IRT for years before GOH; as I've said before, I don't ever remember seeing a solid train of anything on the IRT during the late 70s. The IND/BMT was another story. Mixed consists were run during the late 60s and early 70s, but not as much as on the IRT. The only mixed trains I ever saw were D trains of R-32s and R-42s.
While we're on the subject of mixed trains, is there a logical explanation as to why the R-10s continued to run in solid trains while the R-12s and R-14s did not? If the reason for not wanting conductors to have to work the trigger boxes on the IRT is true, then why wasn't it applied to the IND? The only reason I can think of is that the routes on which the R-10s ran were mostly underground while most IRT routes are elevated once they leave Manhattan, and that conductors on the R-10s weren't subjected to the elements as much as their IRT counterparts.
Not that I have any complaints about the R-10s running in solid trains. Indeed, they deserved to run as such. I prefer solid trains, anyway.
The entire R-11 fleet was overhauled in 1964 to MU with standard SME equipment. They were then technically called R-34s.
The R-10s ran out to the Rockaways for many years so I doubt that weather was the criteria used for mixed and non-mixed consists. I think it was that the R-10s were assigned to Pitkin shop where, in the 70s & 80s, there were no other SMEE cars that they could MU with. In the IRT. it seemed that standardization of 'shop fleets' was not such a priority as in the B divison so there was more of a hodge-podge of cars in each IRT shop. BTW, the 10s ran in 7 car consists on the G line for a few years. They were kept at Jamaica for service but went to Pitkin for inspection and repairs
Were the trigger boxes on the R-11s still functional after the R-34 rebuilding, or were they deactivated?
I've ridden the G only a couple of times, so I'm curious as to how long the station platforms are. Are they the IND standard 660 feet? There is a 1966 photo in Gotham Turnstiles of a 7-car A train on the elevated stretch along Liberty Ave. The caption says that it's headed by three R-10s. Well, if you look close, you'll see that the first three cars are sporting the then-new white-and-aqua paint scheme, while the rest of the cars still have the older colors. Then again, maybe the author didn't know that the R-10s could not m. u. with the R-1/9s.
Speaking of which, how long have shop fleets been standardized on the B division? It must be something that has occurred since GOH, as mixed consists were run in the early 70s on IND and BMT routes.
When the 6-car R-46 units are unavailable for G service, RTO requires 10 car R-32s for safety reasons. Therefore, every G station is in excess of 600 feet in length.
I was on the G last Saturday - they were running 4-car R-46 units:
(6090-1-3-2; 5730-1-3-2; 5898-9-901-900 were among them). Have they decided to go from 6-car to 4-car on the G?
Wayne
Wayne,
I highly doubt that the G line is going to fully utilize 8 75' cars (2 sets of ABBA units). Perhaps, they decided to run a full 8 car train because they had no 2 car (AA) units to run.
Speaking of car assignments, I spotted something out of the ordinary at Concourse Yard, today. I spotted a mixed consist of cars from the N line. The train was made of 2 R32s, an R68, and another pair of R32s on the other end of the consist. This a Coney Island shop train, so why is it at Concourse? Also, at the far end of the yard under the IRT yard approach was a pair of R32s. Other than that, you had your usual R68s, R68As, a train of Kawasaki R62s, and one lone pair of R33s, 9236-37.
Steve can probably shed some light on this.
Would anyone know if R33s 9152-53, 8980-81 are off to scrap? They've been sitting around 239 St Yard since the 2-3-98 accident. I would've thought they would have been towed by diesel to the grave yard at 207 St.
-Constantine Steffan
R32's are typical horses(cars in atransfer train only for motor or train length rules) and thats why they were hauling the shitcan up from the Coney Island main shop. After they will probably return to the south alone or with another set of bad cars. hose r33's will probably be there till the rest of the r33's get scrapped. Typically the TA wont scrap wrecks, until the rest of the car class goes.
On weekends the line is OPTO and uses 4 car trains
The G line always ran short trains on the weekends. I remember back
in the 50s and 60s when the GG line ran 3 car trains (of R-1/9s) on weekends.
Oh gosh Wayne, I made a slight mistake when looking at this message. I saw the R46 numbers and thought you were talikng about an 8 car train.
As subway buff had mentioned, the R46s are OPTO on the weekends. I've seen OPTO signs in various locations. They haven't done it on the R 36th St Shuttle, have they? I'd expect that someday the M shuttle will get it, when the R143s arrive.
-Constantine
OPTO has not come to the M and not come on the R Shuttle (and I have not seen OPTO S signs on either section)
They actually could have OPTO on the M in May, when it will be a shuttle all the time, and never go over the Bridge where the clearance problems for the 75ft cars are. They could use the 2 car units from the G. It would be so nice to see this over here for a while, especially since it looks the new R-143's will lwind up looking alot like the R-42's inside.
I don't know why the night time R shuttle isn't OPTO. I never even realized or thought about that one.
The other clearence problem for 75' cars on the Eastern Division would be the reverse curve from the B'way line to the Myrtle line.
-Hank
Without going across the Williamsburgh, how would you get the R-44/46/68's onto the Eastern Division? There's no connection with the L, either, and as far as I know, they haven't connected up the E and J at Parsons-Archer.
They could go over the bridge one way to get them over, perhaps right after passenger service has ended, so that nothing is going the other way (that's the problem on that curve). Also, they could be hauled over the LIRR Bay Ridge branch and through the Linden shop to the L line tracks. This is how cars were moved back and forth 11 years ago when it was closed.
Also, I'm not sure the curve into Myrtle is a barrier. I heard that a bicentennial fantrip with R-46 cars ran to Metropolitan as well as Canarsie.
The curve going into Myrtle is probably got the same problem as Essex Street - trains could sideswipe each other. Also, on the "L", the curve just outside of Graham Avenue - a wee bit too tight, wethinks.
Wayne
Were the door chimes in tune with each other?
Just out of curiosity, does the middle track at Bedford-Nostrand have any platform signs indicating no service on it? I've only ridden the G four times in my life, the last time in October of 1987, and remember seeing an "All trains this side" sign with an arrow pointing to the outer track.
Ed Sachs mentions seeing 3-car trains on weekends way back when. I seem to recall seeing 3-car AA trains in May of 1967 (3 or 4 cars, one or the other). I got into the habit early on of counting the number of cars in a train as it left the station. Speaking of the AA and the R-1/9s, I enjoyed the run from 59th to 72nd on such a train. You had a good, long run, and the bull and pinion gears would reach E above middle C.
The AA train generally ran 4 cars through the 50s and 60s (it didn't run in rush hours).
I also recall 4 car trains on the F and D lines on weekends.
The BMT southern division lines generally ran 6 car trains in non-rush hours, with 3 car trains late at night (BMT standards). I recall in the 1960s, after the R-27/30s arrived, the RR train running 4 car trains on weekends.
During the late 60s on Saturdays, I vividly remember seeing 4-car AA trains, 6-car E trains, and 8-car A trains. As Christmas approached, AA trains became 8 cars long, while A and E trains had 10.
I'm just fuzzy about the AA trains I rode on a couple of Sundays in May of 1967. They were either 3 or 4 cars, probably 4.
Yup, the AA indeed ran four-car trains on the weekends. I vividly remember the M as well and the 3 doing it also. I am sure we all remember "making that run" from the front of the platform back down to the 4-car marker when we realized it was a short train. I have many memories doing it with my father(for a time he lived up on CPW), as we'd transfer from a D to an AA. I also have many memories of being on a D as we'd fly past a short M train on the Brighton line.
Here's a question..and correct me if I am wrong..but I seem to remember when the IRT(at least, if not all lines) used to run 4-car trains, the conductor would be using the cabs in the 1st/2nd car...am I remembering this wrong??
The #7 line ran four cars in the evenings around 1980 for some time.Presently, the #6 line runs five cars after 11:00pm.I believe the conductor operates in the second and third car when the train is bound for Brooklyn Bridge.The #6 used to run seven car trains on the weekends(R62As).When they ran a redbird on the weekend, it was an eight car train.
Mike,
When the 6 line is running 5 cars at night the conductor operates with 3 cars south & 2 cars north. In this case the train operator makes a 6 car stop and the conductor is on the board. The night 6 only operates to 125 st. & Lex. The conductor is "supposed" to change operating positions so that he would have 3 cars north, for the trip back to Pelham, but most don't.
When you say "the #6 used to run 7 car trians on the weekend" I'm not sure how long ago you are refering. Any way, as early as last year they were cutting train on the weekend's (I'm not sure what they are doing now, hav'nt worked a weekend on the 6 in awhile). The conductor would have 4 cars south & 3 cars north, for an 8 car stop and you got the board. Train went thru the loop, now you got 4 cars north, and you know the rest. I hated 7 cars on the weekend, Lex line could use 12 cars and you would still not have enough room. One good thing about 7 car weekend's, it created a platform (Drum Switch) job at Pelham. The Conductor would change the operating position on the arriving trains (Nice Job).
Safe Trip,
Michael
One of the oddities here in Boston, is that on the Orange Line, the conductor is in car #5(full width cab...each married pair doesn't have conductor's cabs in the middle). I asked one once why she wasn't in the fourth car. Her response was if the train came uncoupled, she'd be able to stop the last two cars.
Here in NYC Transit, when every there are 2 transverse cabs at the same Conductors operating position, you will see him in the cab that is part of the second half of the train. This is for the same reason you mentioned in your post. If there should be a "Pull-apart" the conductor can take the action necesary to stop the rear half of the train, should any action be necessary during a pull-apart
That has to be the silliest thing I've ever heard. Do those cars still use Van Dorn couplers, or are they link-and-pin? If the train uncoupled, the brakes would automatically activate from the loss of air pressure in all but the most unusual circumstances.
-Hank
I guess it's that "unusual circumstance" they are concerned about.
Tradition is a hard thing to change.
Here is another of the silliest things you may have ever heard.
At present, when a train is running lite (out of service) and there is a conductor on board, he is required to ride in the last car, ready to set hand brakes in the case of a pull-apart.
I don't make the rules, but I must be conversant with the rules.
I was refering to seven years ago when I was a conductor.I didn't know that the Train operator stopped at the 8 car marker for 7 car train and at the 6 car marker for a 5 car train.BTW, I also remember having a 5 car train going to Brooklyn Bridge one time.We left Pelham Bay about 10:00pm.We were super late as a result.
The cutting of trains on the Pelham line only resumed sometime last year. I was told that years ago there used to be a 5 car stop marker and a five car Conductor board and the same for 7 cars. Do you recall this?
I was told that a new line supt. did not like the look of all the different colored boards and all those car stop markers and considered it a saftey problem.
Now on the Pelham every thing seems to be neat and orderly. You will only see 4,6,8,&10 car stop markers, and one white with black strips conductors inication board. Where there is an S stop marker there are white and balck striped boards for each of the aforementioned train lenghts.
On the 1 (B'way) line, which recently started running 5 cars at night, they went with special boards and car stop markers.
It seem each line Supt. does what works best for them. It's kind of fun and tends to keep you on your toes!
Back on January 9, I had to "make that run" at Greenpoint Avenue as a four-car "G" came into the station well short of where I had just taken a picture of a station name tablet near the India Street exit.
The operator, in sole command of the #5898 bunch, saw me and politely waited the half-minute or so it took me to run down to the first car.
Wayne
I used to have to "make that run" at 42nd St. if an 8-car A train happened to pull in instead of a 10-car train. When the R-32s first appeared on the AA, they were so quiet that I wouldn't even know a 4-car train was there until it started to leave. Of course, southbound locals didn't roar into that station the way A trains did.
Back in the late 70s on the West Side IRT, 1 and 2 trains were 7 cars long on weekends, while 3 trains would be 5 cars. The conductor would be situated between the first and second cars on a 3.
3 trains were five cars...that's it...so I wasn't crazy that i thought i used to see the conductor in the first car too!
Also, what about when you'd be riding in the front car of a 4-car set of R38's on the AA..you pull into 59th St and there is a full length R42 across the platform on the D pulling in at the same time.
Or for that matter the obligatory local to express change ANYTIME you pull into an express station!
I've been known to board an express train in the middle and make my way to the first car through the storm doors on Redbirds, R-32s, R-38s, R-40s, R-42s, and R-62s. On 75-footers, I'd move up to the next car at the next stop.
I used to be old hat at "walking up" while in motion - I used to be old hat at riding out between the "A" ends of a Slant R40 (until I got me a tickie-poo back in 1983) - I'd wait until there was a nice juicy curve THEN I'd yank the storm door open and saunter out, enjoying the opera as I went. I'll still cross while in motion but I do so with extreme care - and NEVER between the "B" ends of a Slant R40 or R40M - there are no grabhandles.
Wayne
In the 1950s and 1960s, downtown (Brooklyn bound) Lexington Ave. express trains (now the #4 and #5 lines) operated with the conductor between the first and second cars.
At Bowling Green the conductor would also open the right-side doors of the first car to the Shuttle platform (Bowling Green - South Ferry shuttle).
I assume this didn't happen when the #5 went to South Ferry.
That's probably true. The shuttle ran when the 5 (and later the 6) was not running to South Ferry. When the new R units arrived, 5 trains running to South Ferry were rerouted to the outer loop track once the gap fillers were reworked to mate with the new door arrangement.
I believe that the inner track and platform at South Ferry were only used for the shuttle trains (at least from the 1950s on). The outer platform was used by all other trains, including Lexington Ave. expresses, even before the introduction of the R-type cars. The old IRT cars worked just fine with the gap fillers -- the center one hit the car center door, and none were needed for the end doors (just watch the triangular shaped gap!).
There were four R-12s which were modified so they could open only their center doors when they stopped at the inner loop. That was the issue with the inner loop - because of the sharp curve, trains could only open their center doors, and on the R units, that wasn't possible. Chances are that Hi-Vs with manual end doors were used on that shuttle until they were retired.
> Chances are that Hi-Vs with manual end doors were used on that shuttle until they were retired.
That is correct.
Yes, as a matter of fact, the 6090 Bunch (6090-1-3-2) were all pitched at "E-C", unlike the quirky 6022 Bunch. 6090 Bunch was a new add to my numbers; hadn't spotted it before. In fact, spotted a total of 26 R-46 that day (Jan 9), leaving me only 28 units left to spot.
I'm noticing 'odd bunching' on the R44's where the lowest numbered unit in the bunch divides by four (4) - usually the lowest only divides by two. For the most part, the units are consecutive.
AND - I had a lovely ride on the "E" today, from 23rd and 8th all the way to Sutphin Boulevard. Took only 38 minutes. And I was at the RF window of #3773 for the entire trip. God Bless our humble (and durable) R-32s! I could hear the ratchet click of the operator's handle as he changed speeds (and I wished I was the one behind that door). After Queens Plaza we diverted to D5 track due to the construction. A beehive of activity down there today, esp. on the northbound side. It's starting to take shape but is a long way from completion. We had one nice run of about 45 MPH from just after Grand to 67 Avenue.
Wayne
Did you manage to sneak a glimpse at the speedometer? Last October, I found I could make out the speedometer on R-32s, R-38s, slant R-40s, and even Redbirds by looking through the hinges of the cab door. If you know where to look, you can spot it. And the operator will never know about it. I couldn't imagine the subway without the R-32s; I know you feel the same way about your slant R-40s.
The Queens line has some stretches where good speeds can still be attained, even with the R-46s. I remember all to well my first jaunt on that line in the spring of 1968. Our E train hit F# above middle C at about 36th St.; it was flying.
Now, if only the R-38s on the A could get uo to 45 by the time they reach 81st St. the way the R-10s (and slant R-40s) used to....
BTW, did you ever encounter harmonious bull and pinion gears on the R-1/9s? I rode a few of those trains whose gears emitted two pitches at once as they accelerated, about a major third apart. A very pleasant sound, if I may say so myself. Now, get this: I heard the same thing on few District line trains in London in 1978. The best analogy would be the fighter plane sound you often hear in war footage; it can be heard on a few McHale's Navy episodes as well.
No, Steve; I didn't get to sneak a peek - I was fixed on the track ahead. It's a real thrill to ride an express. Once our T.O. got out of his GT signals near Elmhurst he brought the R32 up to about 35 or so and we coasted around the curve outside Grand Avenue. When he hit the max allowable speed sign (10 cars out of the curve), he gave #3773 the most juice that he could safely give her, and it was a nice, even trip at about 45MPH under a steady Green signal all the way to just past 67 Avenue, when he let up and we coasted smoothly into 71st-Continental. A very nice trip by a very good operator. No cowboy stuff, just pure "rapid transit".
From Queens Plaza to 36th Street, where you mentioned the R-6's burst of bull-gear muscle, we proceeded under stately caution at no more than 20 MPH due to the army of construction workers in the area, toiling away at the 63rd Street connection. Once clear of this beehive of activity, we resumed under full Green signal. There are GTs in the bypass track, the operator paid them full respect. Once clear of the curve where the bypass track rejoins Broadway, he gave it a little burst of juice on the straightaway through 65th Street local station and came safely to Roosevelt.
Boarding time 23rd Street: 2:43; departure time Sutphin Blvd: 3:21.
Wayne
The R-32s are definitely no slouches when it comes to speed. They always ran effortlessly, and still do. I liked Gene Sansone's reference to them as "jumping like jackrabbits". Once, at 81st St., I saw a Bronx-bound D train of R-32s zoom by without making nearly as much racket as an A train of R-10s. As I like to say, the R-10s thundered along while the R-32s streaked by (like lightning). When the slant R-40s rumbled on the A, they rocketed along, and still do on the Q. (Like my metaphores?) And for good measure, the R-1/9s howled (hauled) ass. (I know, boo, hiss!)
Thinking back, that E train may have also hit F# at about Elmhurst Ave., as well as 36th St. Those rows of I-beams which have always fascinated me were nothing but a blur; that train was moving.
Here's another bull and pinion gear oddity: I was on a train of BMT standards once on the Canarsie, and as the ascending glissando of the gear melody played itself out, an odd embellishment could be heard at about C-C# one octave below middle C, almost as if the motors were saying, "awwwrrrr-mawwrrrr". It had to be an acoustical phenomenon. I must admit I miss those old car sounds. Michael Winslow of Police Academy fame would have a field day imitating those old cars.
The mst memorable sound from the R-7/9s I recall wasn't even while I was on the train -- it was the echoing hum of the motors as they came down the L from Sixth Ave. to Union Square. In terms of sound quality for the train's motors, it was the Carnagie Hall of tunnels.
When an R-40M/R-42 would come down the line, you always got a tinnier sound, and more wind, since there apparently was less space for the air to pass over those trains then there was on the roofline of the R-7/9s.
I used to hear nice R-1/9 sounds outside the trains as well. From the southbound platform at 42nd St., northbound AA and E trains would hurry past, bull and pinion gears whining away. After getting off at Lorimer St., if a GG train happened to be pulling out of the Metropolitan Ave. station. you could hear that familiar ascending glissando from the mezzanine before exiting to the street.
Generally, an approaching train is characterized by a deep rumble which gets louder as the train draws nearer. With the R-1/9s, the gear whine wouldn't be heard until the train was almost there, but it was clearly audible.
True what you say about mixed consists on the mainline IRT before GOH and the advent of R62 & R62A's. But eventhough they mixed car classes, GE & Westinghouse were segregated. The 1,3 & 6 ran Westinghouse, while the 2,4, 5 and GC shuttle ran GE. Today, the #7's married cars will be solid GE (yellow stickers under the number board) or Westinghouse (black sticker). As for the single car (always the 3rd north), they are all Westinghouse. The M/K rebuilt R42's (4550 to 4839) have GE controllers, while the Coney Island rebuilds (4840 to 4949) have Westinghouse, yet they are mixed together. I heard that the CI's have GE electrical equipment tho. In addition, the M/K's have WABCO braking; the CI's have NYAB. Presumably, the same protocol applies at ENY as in JAM as far as mixing rebuilds together.
On the R-32s, which were all re-built by MK, 1/2 were GE/Wabco and 1/2 were Westinghouse/NYAB. They are segregated at Coney Island and Pitkin but are run in mixed consists at Jamaica.
Do they at least keep the G.E. cars on the ends?
Currently, there is no need to keep Westinghouse cars burried or GEs on the outside. The Westinghouse Master Controllers have been modified with heavier GS fingers and additional suppression.
Ah. good, because I remember the postings from last week. It's been a while since I left C.E. work and I have'nt kept up with a lot of the details as I should. But I will say this, although not as satisifying to complete a job in RTO, it is more exciting, and most of the time, fun.
But God I really miss those field shunting coils. Never really powered adequately, at least 460HP was close. Now the ArrowIII cars I once worked on @760HP, with AC motors, there is POWER! Long live AC!
Yes long live Ac, the "Allburn Cutter" used on rental from Metro-North to slice up 1437 at Union Square.
The MTA website list a service notice for the No 1 trains informing us that the No 1 will run exp at certain times between Times Square and 72 St. It says that for service to/from 50/59/66 Sts to take a train to 79 Street and obtain a paper transfer for service in the opposite direction. Why 79 St?? Can't on echange to trains in the opposite direction at 72 St with or without a paper transfer or am I missing something here.
Redbird
It's not possible to change direction at 72d Street without paying another fare. It's not like 96th Street. Also, the stairways and platforms are very narrow - permitting a free "up and over" paper transfer would create a safety hazard.
Andy: That's just my point. The service notice tells people to change at 79 ST and obtain a transfer to cross to the other side. One could just as easily obtain such a paper transfer at 72 ST,
Regards,Redbird
Yes, but you forgot the rest of the message. 72st has two too narrow platforms, each with two staircases where people can't pass each other. Too narrow to safely allow what would be large numbers of people changing trains there. It's probably the origin station with the highest usage outside of the Manhattan CBDs.
-Hank
No comment on the transfer point, but I will mention that IMO this diversion was not handled properly. Early Sunday evening I needed to get from 86th to 59th, usually a quick trip. A few minutes after swiping in a muffled announcement came over the PA system that said something about locals running express. Looking around, the *only* posted service announcement was *inside* the token booth -- *none* were posted where a casual rider who wasn't specifically looking for it would see it before paying the fare (let alone after paying the fare). (Remember that 59th is a major transfer point, and riders who are transfering there also have the options of M104 bus to 59th and walk or M86 bus to CPW and C train down to 59th. Once they've swiped in at 86th, though, it's too late for either of these.)
The train took over 20 minutes to come, by which time the platform was quite crowded. (Four or five SB expresses passed through the station during that time.) Finally the train came, and of course it was crowded (as usual, it would have been much less crowded by the doors if people had moved into the center of the car). As we pulled out of 79th, a nearly empty 2 train passed us on the express track and of course we were held before entering 72nd (the switch is north of the station). Why wasn't the empty 2 held and the full 1 allowed priority access, especially since the 1 riders were being subjected to a service diversion? The one positive aspect of the red signal was that it gave the conductor an opportunity to announce the diversion while the riders could hear it clearly (and they were listening). ("After 42nd this train will make...is scheduled to make all local stops.")
One of the most interesting things about a system the size of New York is the opportunity for many small sub groups of cars or special built vehicles. I recall when the R-38's could be split between the 190 non-ac units and the 10 ac units. Then there was the split in the R-40's(Wayne please note)200 slant-end,non-ac,100 slant-end,ac, and 100 modified end,ac.Even today this persists such as the R-33's and R-36's being split between the mainline and Flushing Line.
Then too there are the small car orders;ie 10 R-11's,10-R-110a's and 9 R-110b's.
What I'm asking about are the special built passenger-type cars that were built for revenue collection.There were the IND R-8A's nos 66 and 67,the IRT Lo-V 5302 built without a center door and I wonder of anyone can think of any others.
Regards, Redbird
The king of the Oddballs must be #1575, the R-7 which got a second life as an R-10 after a 1946 road accident. Then there's #3348, the R32 sex-change recipient (formerly #3659), #8217, which wound up with the rear end of #6494 (sort of half-R27, half-R16), the little band of BMT standards that got converted to trailers and then back to motors,
the SIRT cars that wound up on the BMT, #8660-8661 (note the recent postings) with the different interior, the special R12s modified for use only on the South Ferry Shuttle (#5703-4-5-6), the oddball R68A #5058-5057-5059-5060 with the black floors, Slant R40s with Broadway Gold signs that have white letters (i.e.#4320), and all 23 (so far) R32 Odd Couples. I just spotted a new one Saturday - #3468 with #3445.
There are more out there.
Wayne
How about the 10 ac R-17's 6800-6809,and the lone ac R-15 6239.There were the ten R-22's with that speckled green paint and pink fibreglass seat 7515-7524 and the 50 World's Fair-Steinways which I think were the only single-ended-single unit cars to run on the IRT.(As oppossed to married pair and quintruplets)
1575 LOOKED like an R-10. Mechanically and electrically, it was still an R-7A and stuck out like a sore thumb when running with its sister R-1/9s. It was one-of-a-kind, all right.
BTW, on the Odd Couple R-32s, which car would you say is the Felix car and which one would be the Oscar car (sorry, I couldn't resist)? Maybe they could put together a couple of trains of all-odd couple R-32s and play the Odd Couple theme on the PA system.
If you've read Gene Sansone's new book, he remarks that the early married pairs with couplers at the blind ends were known as "Protestant" marriages, and that later drawbar-joined married pairs were known as "Catholic" marriages. I hope those odd-couple R-32s got annulments first...
I know, I need to quit while I'm ahead. And it's only Monday.
I usually refer to the Even numbered unit as the "husband", or the Oscar car and the Odd numbered unit as the "wife", or the Felix car.
EXCEPT for #3348 -which is the Oddest of the Odd.
Wayne
Now that I think about it, I do remember seeing a number of mismatched R-32s, and this was before GOH. Ditto for R-27s and R-30s. Of course, since the latter two series were joined at the blind ends with couplers, it made for easy swaps.
According to the Transit Museum:
There are two type of married units--catholic and protestant (which refer to the ease of separation.)
The Cars of the subway book for the public (not the real name)also uses this term.
Can't think of any non-passenger cars right now - but there are many examples of unique passenger stock - the BMT's Green Hornet, Zephyr, BlueBird, and Multi-Units; the IRT's 50 (Steinway) cars built for the 1939 World's Fair; even the BMT 200 car group of R-16s.
How about the 50 BX trailers and the first 12 Steinway Motors which I understand were called the "Boilers." The R-38's could qualify too. I think they all the smartest looking of all the stainless steel cars.
They R38 certainly are handsome since their rebuilds - with the soft lighting, curly bars and brushed stainless steel accents. And they are fast and relatively quiet. I'm beginning to get fond of the R32s as well, having ridden in a number of them recently. But nothing beats the weirdest-looking of all subway trains - the Slant R40.
Wayne (SlantR40 till the end)
Wayne, what took you so long? Just kidding. I've been an R-32 fan since July 21, 1965. They need to bring back the blue doors and bulkhead signs. And the fluorescent green lights for the side destination signs. Hey, it's nice to dream, isn't it?
Know what the most unusual thing was about the R-38s originally? The blue band around the belt rail. I remember seeing them during rush hours on the E and thought, whoa, that's weird. That band was totally unnecessary, IMHO.
I always liked the stainless steel over painted surfaces, but then I also liked the original interior color scheme-- light blue walls and darker blue doors. So years ago, I had thought of a way you could have both:
Use clear blue "stain". It would give you the color, but also show the stainless steel underneath. (Like on many soda cans.) That should look nice. That's what they should do with the R-32's, and what I wished they had done with the redbirds!
The Redbirds have carbon steel car bodies, which need a protective coat of paint. Stain won't do the trick. Unfortunately, carbon steel doesn't stand up to corrosion the way stainless steel does, and many Redbirds have fallen prey to its ravages.
How about red tinted stanless steel on the next generation of IRT cars? Or go really retro and put the word `Interborough' above the car windows.
Not a bad idea!
How about modeling them after the redbirds, with a modern twist -- sash windows (including on the storm doors), straps, bench seating (already coming), and either a light gray/dark gray coordination or black/dark green or light green coordination.
Also would like to see lights down the center of the ceiling and air conditioning vents resembling the fan coverings (similar to the current redbirds).
On the front, at least bring back destination signs!
I was talking about the doors, not the bodies. I would have used deep red stain on at least the outside of the doors to try to match the paint of the body.
But then what about covering them or somehow redoing them as stainless steel, as they did with an R-16 as a test?
One of the nicest things I remember was standing at Queensboro Plaza (Upper Level) back in 1965 and seeing nice clean Bluebirds arriving on one track and sparkling new Brightliners arriving on the other.
Redbird
Those Brightliners (R32s) still have plenty of sparkle, both inside and out, especially the Phase II with their shiny stainless steel accents. The ones I saw on the "E" Sat. were in particularly good shape, clean within and without.
Wayne
Wayne: It's seems the Brightliners have been rebuilt into three configurations.
1st) The 10 cars rebuilt by GE;3595-5,3880-1,3892-3,3934-7
2nd) Phase I rebuilds
3rd) Phase II rebuilds
Question: Of the remaining 584 cars;3350-3593,3596-7,3882-3891,3894-3933 and 3938-3949 which are Phase I and which are Phase II.
Regards,Redbird
They're down to 584 now? I'd better check with Constantine Steffan and make sure my Master Scrap List is in order. Last time I looked I had 592 active. As for the Phase I/Phase II - there is no order to it, just like the R46. For example: 3630-3631 is Phase I; 3686-3687 is Phase II. Look for either paint (Phase I) or stainless steel (Phase II) on the door frames. This will take a lot of rides on the "E" and "C" and "N" (and the "A" too) to dope out as I would have to examine each car in the consist, in the absence of some sort of master list.
Perhaps Steve has such a list...
Wayne
Wayne: Do you remember when coming of age for a railfan was when you were tall enough to look out the front window on your own without a parent holding you. The slant end R-40's lowered that theshold for many with those tall narrow window. Of course the door became a little tight to squeeze through as we got older.
Redbird
On my numerous rides back and forth on the #15 train, I would always have to have my Dad pick me up to watch out of the porthole front windows of the R-16s. The R-27/30s posed no problem for me. Of course, I was a bit taller on August 3, 1968, when I first stepped aboard #4175 at 179th Street.
Wayne
That's interesting. We were in Farmingdale visiting my aunt and uncle on that very same day - August 3, 1968. I remember going out to Fire Island and swimming in the ocean. In fact, my uncle still has a tape recording of us shooting the breeze at their apartment. He liked to record conversations for posterity - with the tape recorder in plain view, BTW.
My first railfan experience on the subway was on a Bronx-bound D train of venerable R-1/9s on September 5, 1967. On that particular train, we just happened to board the first car at Rockefeller Center, and I took my place at the front window. We only went as far as 59th St., where we changed directions for Port Authority. My mother even said we needed to "take the A train", and one just happened to be sitting on the southbound express track. Now, I didn't KNOW that the R-10s ruled supreme on the A back then; I was still learning the ropes, so to speak. All I know is I kept looking for some sign to identify it as an A train, and didn't see one. It was those roofline signs. Then, as it left the station, I looked at the end signs and said out loud, "What luck. That was an A train!" I still remember that as though it were yesterday. We ended up taking a CC to 42nd St.
A month or so later, I was riding in the first car in earnest on virtually every train I took - except on the Brooklyn-bound Canarsie. It wasn't until 1969, possibly even early 1970, that I began riding in the first car of Brooklyn-bound LL trains. I never rode in the first car of a Brooklyn-bound Canarsie train of BMT standards; Manhattan-bound, probably from the second or third time on beginning in the fall of 1967.
When I was 9 we moved to the West Bronx where I got my introduction to the IND. My first ride was on a R-42 on the D and to my delight the storm door window was low enough for me to see out of. I'm sure my parents were happy about that also. On my next trip a R-44 showed up and I was somewhat disappionted because I was several inches below the cutout in the glass. Then shortly after that one day we were waiting for a D train (Tremont Ave was our home station) during the start of the PM rush hour and a R-1/9 showed up. I think I saw/rode R-10, 32, 40. 40M and 44 during my first two trip on the IND and I was totally fascinated with the IND.
According to the Revenue & Non-Revenue Car Drawing book, the R-8a was a flatcar #0F407 - 0F410, built in 1939 for the IND. At 9'10" wide, these cars could only operate on the IND or BMT.
Right now, the only specially built non-revenue cars in service are the R-127s & R-134s (not including the maintenance of way equipment) which look like R-62s with one set of doors per side and no windows. They are used for pulling the refuse flat cars.
Steve: The R-8 order was for one flat car with a crane #71 built by Magor. The R-8A order was for two revenue collection cars built by St Louis #66 and 67.
Redbird
Here's another anomaly -Redbirds #7773 and #7821 with their jaunty R22 end doors, complete with drop-down windows. Ahhh, those were the days, my friends! Every time I got a #5 with an R21 or R22 up front I would drop the front window after Mott Haven to hear them squeal their way around the Jughandle coming into Mott Avenue. My fellow passengers didn't like that but did I care? Nah!
And the R40Ms with their Brake Test numbers (back in '69) - AS18,AS19, CB22, CB23 etc.
Wayne
Same thing with a 2 or 3 headed by an R-21 or R-22. You'd get a nice gale in your face as the train would whip past a series of local stops. The BMT standards had drop-sash windows on their storm doors, too.
One of my bizarre subway dreams involved an A train of R-1/9s whose first car had a drop-sash storm door window (and no headlights). I was so excited to see this train in my dream that I really didn't care!
Hey Steve -here's a "moosical" odd-ball: #6022-6023-6025-6024 on the
"F", an R46, has door chimes that sound at C and A-Flat. The other four cars in the train had the normal D-sharp and B chimes.
*** SOUR!!! ***
Wayne
Actually, the "normal" interval on those door chimes is E and C. I think I've heard one car with C and A flat, and one with D and B flat. In any case, it's a major third, which is a nice, consonant interval. Now, if you have two sets of cars whose chimes are collectively a major second apart, you've got dissonance. If they're a minor second (semitone), apart, fillings start to rattle and dogs may start howling. Now, if those chimes were a tritone apart, OI VAY!!
Music theory was always one of my strengths, what can I say?
Back in the pre-air conditioned subway days there was nothing as good as riding in the first car with a drop sash window and just letting the breeze blow in.
Apparently the R-8A contract was for several types of cars. In an older version of the same book, the 2 cars you referred to, are listed. The cars #66 & 67 were 42'9" long with IND height and width. Both were built as trailers. In 1962 both were renumbered to 20176 and 20177. Sorry for the mis-information.
Steve: In checking back I need to correct something I said also. The IND had three separate orders for non-revenue equiptment.The R-3's came first in 1931 and were built by the Magor Corp. This included Flat Cars 01-06,Side Dumps 31?-36, Drill Motors 41,42,Box Supply 51,Pump Car 56,.
The R-8 was for one Crane Flat # 71 by Magor in 1939.
The R-8A's wee built by St Louis and included the aforementioned Revenue Collection Tlrs #66 and 67. I must now add to this Flat Cars 7-10.
I noticed that you had the 20000 srs renumbers. Were the R-8A ever renumbered into the three-digit work car series?
Best Wushes,Redbird
There were two cars in the R-17 series - I think 6608 and 6609 - that they equipped with red plastic seats with slight ripples in them (far less than the current seat design) instead of the typical gray seats. And there were also those cars in the R-1/9 series mentioned in another thread that had vents put into the door windows.
The oddball subway cars seem to be disappearing now. I can't think of any cars since the R-42 series that would qualify (though the entire R-44 series could be called oddball for another reason)
J Lee: I think you are referring to the 10 ac R-17's # 6800-6809. They had red marron bucket seats similar to the R-62's. Of course we could divide the R-44's into the ones running on the TA and the ones running on SIRTOA.
Redbird
Your right about those numbers. By the way, I remember at one time reading an old story that the Transit Authority tried to put Musac on one of the trains, which I think was an R-17, but I'm not sure. Does anyone remember this?
Does anyone remember there were about 3 R44 cars that had carpeting installed back in 1973? I think car #310 was one of them.
They ran on the 'D' line for a brief period. The carpeting didn't last too long.
My info lists 8 cars with carpeting,#328 to 335. After proving to be a cleaning and maintenance headache,the carpeting was removed around 1975.
It's hard to believe-- noone mentioned the 10 R-32's that were rebuilt by GE like th R-38's!
Is there any remaining evidence of the original H&M Line to Newark, such as the Passaic River Bridge, old Harrison Staion and Park Place Newark,Thanks
Redbird
Don't think there's any evidence left - the old route was abandoned in 1937 when Newark Penn Station opened. But it's probably worth a walk around the area to see for sure. The old line would be geographically north of today's route.
Yes it would be. I wonder why the H&M went there in the first place.
Redbird
Roger Arcara documented the remains of the entire and remains of the old line back in 1961. We made a Black & White (silent) motion picture of the trip and numerous stills. I would guess that this material may still be in his estate.
At that time there was a single track still in (Freight?) use across the bridge that dead-ended shortly after the bridge structure a what was the old terminal. We walked across the bridge from the junction to the end of track. The new bridges and terminal realigned everything and eliminated the Manhattan Transfer station.
Thanks for the info.Redbird
How does graffiti appear in the subway system? I have ridden the subway many times, and notice it quite frequently in the tunnels. Also, how is the Transit Authority able to keep the subway cars graffiti free?
It gets in the tunnels as unauthorized people entering those areas. As for the cars, NYCT cleans graffiti off the cars as soon as a car cleaner gets to it in the terminal or yard.
I'm going to NYC on February for three days and, there, I'm staying at Salisbury Hotel (57 th. and 7th. street), therefore, I'll want to know how the Salisbury Hotel is? (how many floors, more or less?, Is confortable?, Is in a good location?
Thanks you very much. I accept all types of suggestion about that and the city, in general.
What was going on that the station at 116 and Lenox(2/3) wasn't done on 10/12/98?
Are they done with it? What's the next line improvement?
The station was totally renovated-- new platforms, wall tile, floor tile, ceiling, etc. The earlier project was to address the water problem.
I'll want to know : How many minutes takes the trip in subway:
1)- From Columbus Circle (59 st.), line 1 or 9, until South Ferry?
2)- From Times Square (42 st.), line 7, until Willets Point?
In Internet: Is there any address to investigate this?
You should take a look at the official Transit Authority site at
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/ (Click on NYC TRANSIT when you get there.) They have all the "official" sort of information that you ask for.
-Dave
[You should take a look at the official Transit Authority site at
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/ (Click on NYC TRANSIT when you get there.) They have all the "official" sort of information that you ask for.]
Note that the official site no longer has subway schedules. Supposedly they're in the process of being revised ... which *presumably* will take less time than the Manhattan Bridge!
Assuming no delays in service, it takes about 22 minutes from 59th St to South Ferry, and 30 minutes from Times SQ to Willets Pt.
Today's Daily News has a photo of what the upcoming R-143 subway cars are supposed to look like. They are flat bench-type seats. The article text dwells on why they have bench seats rather than what it calls the "conversational" seating of cars like the R-42, R-44, and R-68. (Answer: to accomodate more total riders, sitting and standing.)
I have no problem with that, but why are the seats FLAT? They appear to have no curvature at all, just flat horizontal and near-vertical surfaces. The R-40's had seats like this, and they were very uncomfortable. Why not seats that conform to body curves, like those on the redbirds and R-32's? Those are comfortable seats.
Oops. I meant to say that the R-44, R-46, and R-68 cars had the "conversational" seating. The R-42s have bench seating, of course. Not quite as comfortable as the redbirds and the R-32s and '38s, but a lot better than the '40s.
I guess when they decided the bucket seats were no good, they felt completely flat was the safe side, forgetting about the R-26--38 type (ans also, the 110A uses it. Or perhaps "bench" seats means that form, since actual park benches are shaped like that, and perhaps the mockup was completely flat because it was easier to make, and it was just to give an idea of what it looks like.
What bothers me is the decision to eliminate the back to back window seats. The eastern div. is the only place on the B division that has no window seats (not since the R-16, and I wasn't over here then) So with this, on top of the decision to make them 60 feet, it looks like these cars will be almost identical to the R-42's/40's that make up all the service over here now. From the picture, it looks like even the lights will be the same. So even with new cars after 30+ years, everything will look the same over here. Perhaps so they can retrofit the old cars with the new technology (as I've heard they would do if more are needed) and then they can all run together.
Sometimes I wish they would just tear out all the tight curves so R-44--68 and 110B could run over here.
If I recall correctly, the TA went back to the bench type seating due to passenger complaints about the bucket seats used on the R62/62A contracts: some NY fannies can't fit comfortably into a "molded" seat. I see nothing wrong with the bench type seats used on the R32/38, but those on the R40/42 are extremely uncomftorable. Then again, any new seat must be one piece rather than two piece, so you won't see seats like the R32/38. This is because the seat bottoms have a tendency to be removed and thrown onto the roadbed by vandals.
I picked up the article in 30th St. yesterday and read it. Those things would press your butt into a perfect corner! Will they be able to change them in time as Mr. albert says?
And as for the "conversational seating", why are they afraid to have people look each other in the eye? Is it a New York thing?
(P.S.-where was the photograph of the R-143 taken?)
Hello,again; Would anyone out there know if the Metrocard Vending Machine will be handling any Reduced fare transactions,e.g. one ride card@75cents?Also, will the station agents be handling those full fare cards ($1.50)at the same time the machines do, temporarily, at least?
The MVM (ATM) machines will issue new cards, vs. service existing cards that you may have liquadated. Reduced fare customers (Sr & Disabled) have picture ID cards that need to have money added to. That will still require the services of you're friendly agent.
[Full Fare cards at 1.50 ...] I assume you mean "value" vs. "unlim" cards. I assume the MVM will be able to issue either card, it's just an encoding routine & doesn't require different card stock (except the "One-Fare/green card". The "MetroCard" the machine issues will be slightly different from the one the agent issues, but it will LOOK the same, if you hold it at arms length, i.e. don't look at it too close.
Mr t__:^)
Subway stations have bathrooms? I have seen them many times when riding the system. Is it possible for me to use the restroom before and after I take a train? I have never been in a bathroom on the subway. I have read tourbooks, and they say I shouldn't use them. How come that is? If you gotta go, you gotta go!!
There are VERY FEW public restrooms left on the New York subway. However, many stations used to have them, and the signs may still be present in many places. So, it's not possible to (legally) use the washroom before or after riding the train, unless you use a public washroom off Transit Authority property (which is not what you were asking). I say legally, because of course there are uncouth people who use the stations as public toilets without benefit of using a proper toilet or urinal, if you know what I mean.
As to why you shouldn't use the washrooms where they do exist: homeless people sometimes live in there, and drug adddicts sometimes use them as "shooting galleries". I know I'm not going to drop my pants on a floor where there's used drug needles and who knows what else!
There was some discussion a few days ago about a Sperry Rail Car on the subway system. Were you gentlemen talking about No 402 ex NHRR
which took a trip to Germany in 1958? Is it still in use? How does it's operation differ from the Track Geometry Car?
Thanks,Redbird
Hey, Redbird.
I'm not sure, but the Sperry Rail Car I'm familiar with is the one that looked like a modified trolley car (PCC type) known as SPS 402. It used to be seen "hanging out" in the Coney Island yards. It is featured in the book "Brooklyn's Waterfront Railways" on page 40.
BTW, there is the Plasser/American Geometric rail car that I used to see fairly often parted off to a siding by the Jamacia LIRR terminal.
Hope that helps you out.
Doug
That track geometry car @ LIRR Jamaica Station is not the same one used by TA. LIRR version has different markings on the side and looks larger.
.. and there are 2 TGC cars, right? Didn't they get overhauls recently?
--Mark
I believe there are 2 but my resourse book only lists one. I am not aware of any overhaul....but it could very well be true.
To get to the original question, and please correct me if I am wrong, the Sperry car examines the rails for defects (cracks or internal failures), while the track geometry car would examine the alignment (cross level, superelevation, grade, low joints, kinks etc.).
There are two track geometry cars, TGC1 and TGC2 from 1984. It is in my opinion that they should have gotten some kind of upgrade in the years since their delivery. There's also Sperry Rail Car 403 which runs around the system on occassion. I also know that there's an inspection car at Coney Island which has the body of a bus mounted on a(n) (R20?) flat car. You gotta wonder when was the last time that odd ball was used.
Does anyone know how the Vaktrak is doing on the road? Last I heard, she was restricted from entering certain yards or at least certain sections of various train yards....
-Constantine
Gerry I believe your assessment is correct. But I'd like to hear from more of the "regular crowd" before I end up with my foot in my mouth
To Constantine: I recall seeing that road inspection car back in 1979 over by the 36th Street BMT yard during the great (and quite memorable) "Diamond Jubliee" open-house to commemorate the 75th Anniversary of the subway system.
The car did indeed look like the top half of a GMC-type bus sitting atop a flat car. It was (at that time) painted in the famous silver w/blue strip TA colors. It was outfitted with numerous sealed-beam headlights on the ends if I recall correctly. Certainly one of the more bizarre-looking MOW equipment.
Doug
The inspection car (don't have its number handy) is used mostly for visiting politicians and others touring the system. Oddly, it's not covered in any of the versions of the "Revenue & Non-Revenue Car Drawings" books that I have.
Doug: The car that you speak of was an R-20 Flat Car originally numbered X-116. I believed that it was used periodically for inspections of the subway tunnels conducted by the fire department.
Regards,Redbird
Redbird:
Thanks for the info on the TA road inspection car. I always wondered about it.
Doug: Your welcome.I used to see that car very often during the 70's sitting in the back of the Westchester Square Yard. Apparently it was seldom used.
Regards,Redbird
I'm pretty sure I spotted this car on the layup track between 34st and 42st on the 7th Ave IRT last Thursday. Too many lights (all dim) to be anything else.
-Hank
Doug: I think thats the one. I wonder how the function of the Sperry Rail Car differs from the MTA's Track Geometry Cars. Thanks
Redbird.
I know I already asked this question,but I was still unsatisfied.If you can answer a question like:"When you first drove the subway(I mean about the time when you were still learning),how did it feel?"If you can answer this question,I'll be glad to hear from you.
I have never driven a subway but have driven a streetcar. I was a bit like driving a bus but the acceleration was much faster and there was no steering wheel and that was kind of different. Going through switches is kind of different too. You can see where they are set and you just ride through the bumps as you push through the tongues and cross over the frogs.
There were some photos in Monday's Daily News (1/11/98) of bench type seating on new subway cars. Were these photos taken of a mockup or of an actual piece of equiptment that has been modified?
Thanks,Redbird
I remember 15 years ago when the R68/68A/62/62A were arriving the uproar over the 'conversational seating' being too small for some fat butts......
-Hank
That looked like a mockup. There was one made for the B div cars, and it was displayed at 207th last May.
What went wrong on the CTA last week. Usually they are very good at handling snow. What fleet of cars was causing the problems, the Boeing cars or the Budd cars?
The big story is that the 2600-series cars have a design flaw whereby they are vulnerable to powdery snow being blown into the electrical equipment under the car, causing shorts and thus failures. This probably never came up before, or at least not on this scale, because the snow is usually heavy, wet, and clumpy, not light and powdery.
I forgot to add that the other problems with the Blue Line (because there were car shortages to a lesser degree on ALL the lines), which shut the line down from Jefferson Park to O'Hare, were that:
1) IDOT (Illinois Dep't of Transport) snowplows, clearing the Kennedy Expressway, forced the snow against the fence, and the fence ultimately against the third rail, knocking it out of position.
2) The IDOT snowplows built up ramparts of snow against the concrete barriers between the CTA ROW and the expressway lanes. (Some portions of the median-strip line have full concrete barriers, some have low barriers topped with a fence, and some just have the fence.) These barriers are purposely designed that they CANNOT serve as a ramp for a car hitting them at high speed to go over them and onto the tracks. But the snow against the barriers created just such a ramp, and an out-of-control automobile indeed went "up and over" onto the tracks!
So, the CTA and a portion of the public blame IDOT (and not CTA) for the major disruptions on the Blue Line.
John, Is the Blue lines trolley (light rail) or subway type cars, if trolley mfg by Boeing in Renton, Wash. ... don't they have SNOW up there ????
Mr t__:^)
The CTA rapid transit ('L') is considered a heavy rail type operation, although the cars used are relatively small and light-weight, closer in size and weight to LRVs than NYC subway cars.
There are 200 Boeings in the fleet (2400 series, built 1976-78), but these have been performing well in the snow. The cars with the snow problems were the 2600 series, 600 cars built by Budd during the 1980s (this series comprises half of the CTA L fleet).
Thanks for the info. about the 2600 cars. I heard bits and pieces on the news but could not put it all together. I heard about the 3rd rail allignment problem but I came in on the middle of the story and was not sure if it was IDOT or the CTA plows that bent it. Did the bent 3rd rail also dammage some cars?
How are things this week? I hear it's almost normal.
Put it this way: a typical New York subway car would be considered a heavyweight in Chicago. Case in point: the heaviest cars ever used in Chicago were the all-steel 4000-series units, which weighed in at about 38 tons. That's about what an R-17, R-21, or R-22 weighed, and a few tons more than a new R-32. By contrast, the 3200-series units weigh, I believe, 27 tons apiece.
IMHO, the 2600s are not without their faults, either. Their doors seem to rattle and roll when they open and close, and the ride is NOISY, especially in the subway portions, almost as much as on the 6000-series cars.
I believe the last trolley to run in Chicago was in 1958!
Yes, indeed. Green Hornet #7213 made the last run on the remaining southern half of the #22 Clark-Wentworth route in the wee morning hours on June 21, 1958. There are several published photos of this car on that historic run. It had a "last streetcar to run in Chicago" poster taped to its front, and a "Farewell Windy City trolleys - final run 6-21-58" banner on its side. Last year's CTA calendar has a photo of the motorman and conductor posed together in front of it at its southern terminal. It's just too bad that I'm too young to remember streetcars in Chicago.
I was 7 when the last streetcar ran. My uncle was a streetcar operator who did not want to transfer to buses and left the CTA for a bit but later went back to work in the shops till he retired in the mid 70's
I remember the electric buses and riding them but I just have a vague recolection of seeing the streetcars. My dad was pretty good at avoiding the remaining lines.
I rode the 4000's and 6000's quite a bit on the "L" Many of the 6000's were built from the post war PCC cars.
To say that the 6000's were built from post war PCC trolley cars is a bit misleading. The post war PCCs were scrapped by St. Louis Car Company, and many of the components (including trucks, motors, seats, and window sashes) were re-used in the 6000 series cars. The car bodies themselves, however, were new.
True but trucks and controlers make a pcc and the 6000's were pcc's
They tried to modify the bodies but they were too wide and it was easier to build new bodies. The trucks were also beefed up and the third rail equipment was added.
If I remember correctly (seeing pictures of them and one movie which featured one - forget the name) - the CTA 6000s had the PCC saucer shade "bullet" lights. Was this a PCC regulation that required this lighting? The Newark PCC trolleys have them, and the PATH Class K Cars have them too (some of them still exist as work motors).
Wayne
The interior lights came from the streetcars and one of the design features of the PCC project was interior lighting and even distribution of light.
As I understand, the problem they ran into when trying to modify PCC bodies was that Chicago's PCCs, both the prewar Blue Geese and postwar Green Hornets, had their bodies mounted on the trucks 3 inches off center so they wouldn't sideswipe each other on the streets. Apparently, streetcar tracks in Chicago were laid closer together than in other cities, even though the track was standard gauge.
As for the 6000-series fleet, the first 200 cars (6001-6200 or thereabouts) were built from all-new components. Their blinker doors ran straight down the car sides and did not match the tapered contour of the carbody itself. The remaining 570 cars were built using parts cannibalized from the Green Hornets; their blinker doors did follow the carbody contour and blended in nicely with the car's exterior. The Illinois Railway Museum in Union has several examples of both car styles, as well as both surviving Chicago PCCs.
There are some parallels to New York's rolling stock. Like the R-1/9s, the 6000s could not m. u. with any other cars. Like the R-10s thru the R-42s, all rolling stock from the 2000s on can operate together. I assume the 3200s are compatible with earlier equipment; if not, I stand corrected.
I vivdly remember seeing, and hearing, the 4000s on the Evanston Express; unfortunately, I never had a chance to ride them. I say 'hearing" because I could always tell when a 4000-series train ran past my grandmother's apartment. They had a distinctly different sound from the 6000s. The clackety-clack sound on expansion joints was much more audible with the 4000s, probably because they were quite a bit heavier than the 6000s.
For a while the 6000's ran on the rubber sandwich PCC wheels too. As time went on they were converted to the solid forged wheel that is standard on the CTA now.
The 2400s initially came with wheels which featured aluminum hubs and outer steel flanged portions. There were problems with slippage, and one steel portion actually came off its hub. The 2600s came with solid steel wheels.
BTW, the first 6000s came in the same paint scheme as the Green Hornets: mercury green and croydon cream, with a swamp holly orange band around the belt rail. It wasn't long before the green-and-white scheme came along. The 2000s were originally painted that way, too.
I'm not positive of the chronology, but it's my recollection that the 2000s (1964) were the first "L" cars to appear in the dark green and white scheme. The 6000s and 1-50s began being repainted into these colors only after the 2000s had been delivered. And, of course, the most familiar version of the earlier green-cream-orange scheme was itself a simplification of the as-delivered livery of the first two hujndred 6000s, which had an additional green band at the level of the standee windows and some additional striping.
By the mid-Fifties, CTA had already begun repainting the postwar PCCs in a simplified green and cream livery, a darker shade than the origional mercury green (though not as dark as the later rapid transit green) and without the orange belt rail. Not all of the fleet had been repainted at the time streetcar service ended in 1958.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
I believe the green shade used on repainted streetcars was Everglade green. And, yes, the standee windows on both the early 6000s and Green Hornets had a mercury green stripe. Green Hornet 7213, which made the last run on June 21, 1958, was sporting the newer two-tone paint scheme. 4391, which survives at the Illinois Railway Museum, kept its original scheme until it was removed from service.
You're probably right about the 2000s being the first cars to have the mint green-alpine white scheme. I rode the L for the first time on April 1, 1967, just before we left South Bend, and the 6000-series cars we rode were green and white.
Your uncle's sentiment was shared by most of the 120 remaining carmen when streetcar service ended. I believe that 20 retired along with the cars; most of the others who refused to drive buses were reassigned to desk jobs until they retired. Did your uncle do any "barnhopping" as carbarns were converted to bus garages? Some carmen moved to as many as three or four different barns which still operated streetcars; one such fellow drove clear across the city near the end every day in order to do so.
I was 19 months old when the last streetcar ran in Chicago. Interestingly enough, we have some film footage, shot on that very same day by a gentleman my parents knew, on the then-brand new Skyway; back then, it was called the Calumet Skyway.
I heard the stories when I was older. I do not know how much seniority he had or how long he could hang on. His first job that I remember at the CTA was after he went to the shops and he was repairing radiators. He finished his career in the rappid transit shops.
My Grandfather was a conductor on the "L" until he died in 1954. I never had a chance to talk to him about his job and my dad never talked about it much but they lived near the 61st st car house for the south side "L" so I assume thats where he worked out of.
I AM INTERESTED IN TRADING GENUINE NYC TRANSIT POLICE PATCHES (NO LONGER A POLICE FORCE, MERGED INTO THE NYPD) FOR OLD NYC TRANSIT TOKENS. I HAVE DUTY WORN AND NEW PATCHES (YOUR CHOICE). LETS TRADE AND HELP BOTH OUR TRANSIT MEMORABILIA COLLECTIONS. PLEASE LMK WHAT KIND OF TOKENS YOU HAVE (DESCRIBES SIZE, MARKINGS, AND WRITING).
THANK YOU,
TRANSIT BUFF
Just received my Nov/Dec 98 edition of "Metro" a trade magazine.
An article by Jeremy Zitter within is titled "Transit's Mad Scramble to Solve Y2K". MTA Depty CFO Robin C. Stevens is quoted as saying
"MTA ... start(ed) the compliance process early, in 1995 ... has spent $25 million ... and expects to spend at least $30 million total."
This info being provided without further comment.
Mr t__:^)
Since I'm in NYC only three days, My family and I,'ll trip very often in subway (Line 1,9; station by station), therefore, the question is:
Is convenient to buy token for each trip realized?, or
Is there another card convenient (cheaper) if you realice very much trips ?
Thanks you very much to whoever.
All the fare options are explained on their official site. http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/
You can buy $4 daypasses for each of your family (each person has to have their own) for unlimited travel. Ask at your hotel where the nearest place to get the daypasses is- the token booths do not sell them.
It certainly isn't convenient to buy a token each time.
--
Todas las opciones del precio se explican en su sitio oficial http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us /
Usted puede comprar $4 daypasses para cada uno de su familia (cada persona tiene que tener sus el propios) para el recorrido ilimitado. Pregunte en su hotel donde está las cabinas el lugar más cercano conseguir los daypasses simbólicas no los vende.
No es ciertamente conveniente comprar un símbolo cada vez.
(Translation by babelfish.altavista.com)
And Dave, this is what the Babelfish says when I give it its Spanish back: (*Shudders*)
All the options of the price explain in their official site http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us /
You can buy $4 daypasses for each one of your family (each person must have his the own ones) for the limitless route. Ask in his hotel where the place is the cabins closest to obtain daypasses symbolic does not sell them.
Every time is not certainly advisable to buy a symbol.
Heh. I know it isn't very good. But I figured i'd do my part to overcome the language barrier. :-)
Besides, while Babelfish may produce some odd translations, it costs a goose egg ... and we know that old saw about gift horses and mouths!
The bus operating agency has changed its name to Miami-Dade Transit Agency. Thwe current fleet consists of: Flxible "Metros", GMC "RTS" (they are ready for retirement) Ikarus articulated and NABI (ex-Ikarus) 40 footers.
The color scheme appearing on the new NABI's is beginning to be applied to some Flxibles. It looks very good.
Saw one NABI that has a plexiglass partition next to the driver separating him/her from the passengers (not behind but next to the driver).
Cubic fareboxes are used. This is the standard model 1030, takes coins, dollars, MetroRail tokens and swipes MetroRail transfers.
By the way, the buses still issue paper transfers!
>Saw one NABI that has a plexiglass partition next to the driver separating him/her from the passengers (not behind but next to the driver).<
(--ie: it was like a booth in a subway car)
They were thinking about doing this in New York years ago. I don't know what ever happened to that idea.
I remember in the late 70's or early 80's Green buslines did equip some of their buses with this type of partition to protect operators that were being victimized on certain dangerous routes, but I dont know how many buses were so equiped and how long the program lasted.
While the Willie B is closed, the Fulton St line will have to take up some slack. Currently, with the A express stopping at every three stations, everyone who can gets on the express. The C local runs infrequently, stranding those at local-only stations for long waits, but remains under-used.
While the Willie B is closed, I suggest running the E, which has more trains, on the express tracks in Manhattan and as the Fulton St local over in Brooklyn, while terminating the C at World Trade Center. The E would provide service every five minutes to local stops, and the local to express merge at Canal St would no longer be needed. And, I suggest having the A train bypass Utica Avenue and Nostrand Avenue stations, running exress right from Broadway East New York to Hoyt-Schemerhorn.
The inability to transfer to the express would put all of Bed Stuy on the E, which would be better utilized than the C is today, but more frequent E service would balance the loss of the A -- travel times would probably be the same or faster. Meanwhile, those forced onto the A by the service disruption would have a really fast ride beyond the transfer with the J/Z. So would existing A train riders.
During the disruption, I believe the demand would justify the four to six additional trains per hour running between Chambers Street and Eucid Avenue. And, I'll bet many of those who ride the J/Z today would continue to use the Fulton St line after service is restored, if the service pattern is maintained.
What does the MTA have planned? Last I heard, it will offer more off peak service only, not more Fulton St service at rush hour. In addition to stuffing Bed-Stuy, Bushwick, and East New York riders in like chickens (cattle travel better), there would be no way for me to transfer to the A/C at Jay St. More rush hour service is required. If the TA does not have enough trains, it would be better off eliminating the trains to nowhere (the J/Z beyond Broadway and the M), shifting the trains to the other lines L, Fulton St, G -- and running connecting buses.
Why should people at Utica and Nostrand lose express services.
That's just what they're going to do-- increase the other services with cars from the J, M & Z, which not only will be cut off, but will only run 6 cars, freeing up more for the other lines. So the C probably will get more service, and not need to be switched with the E.
(It's when the Manhattan Bridge closes that they might send the E to the Rockaways and the A local to Euclid, to pull people away from Montague St. Only now they've messed it up as the Franklin will only be able to handle 7 2-car trains per hour.
Here's a question: why are C trains still 8 cars long when all other trains on 6th and 8th Aves. are 10 cars long? Historically, the IND ran 10-car express trains and 8-car local trains while the IRT has been running 10-car local trains for years. Could it be that since the C is the only IND line in Manhattan which runs local over its entire route, they've stuck with the old IND philosophy? With the upcoming beefed up service on Fulton St., they should seriously consider running 10-car trains on the C, unless there may not be enough R-32s or R-38s to make this possible.
If they are taking cars from the J, M, Z,, is there a chance to see R-42's on the C? And if so how would they get the R-42's on the A&C lines?
They'd probably route them out of Essex Street and up the Chrystie Street connection to B'way-Lafayette and on to 207th via 6th Ave, 53rd Street and CPW, switching over to the "A" tracks at 135th Street.
They'd probably head back to Pitkin via the 8th Ave. line.
Wayne
I have not yet seen the exact details, but the 48 ENY slants (4398 to 4449--missing 4420/21/27/28) would be shifted to Coney Island for the N/Q, with other various shifting of R32's between CI & Pitkin and Pitkin & Jamaica. As the start date approaches, the exact assignments will be availiable in the field.
I've always assumed they run eight cars on the C because the C is rarely full even at that shorter length (although it's been a while since I rode one at rush hour, so correct me if I'm wrong).
As you express addicts know, adding C trains won't help, because everyone will pack the A until you can't breathe. Its that way now, with lots of empty space on the C. That's why I suggested adding locals (to reduce the wait in local-only stops) and making Utica Avenue and Nostrand Avenue local only as well. Outer areas get the A, and a fast trip. Inner areas get the C. Just like the 125th to 59th run.
Did anyone catch the new Discovery Channel program "Inside the Lines". Monday night's epidsode was about the evolution of the subway. It metioned subways around the world such as ours, London, Paris, Moscow, Budapest, LA and others. If anyone did see it what were your thoughts. If not I'm not too sure but I think you can order a copy of the program from the Discovery Channel. The program was titled "Inside the Lines: Evolution of the Subways."
Yes, I saw it. It was very enjoyable, technically correct, and not too technical. A good overview of some interesting systems.
Good show. It focussed more on NYC than other cities. There were interviews with "TA" officials, the usual historic footage, and an upbeat message about how the NYC subway has made a comeback.
You can buy a copy of the tape from the Discovery channel. I think it was about $30.
Bill
In reading through many of the postings, but especially amongst my co-workrers I've noticed that the old titles of stations and routes are slowiy falling out of use. I encourage all of my fellow enthusiasts and especially those employees of the TA to follow my lead and call things by the proper title.
As a Conductor I Typically refer to 34st on the 8th Av route as "Pennsylvania Station" rather than just 34th.
Older people like this, but the younger generations should not be allowed to grow up without knowing those great names like "Brighton Express" ( I almost never actually say Q whan I work there ) So, every one please call 'em as they are :
N-Broadway local, Sea beach local
R-Broadway/4th av local
#1-Brodway local
G-Brooklyn Queens Crosstown
Pennsylvania Station
and so on and so on. People will respect you and think you really know your history as a knowledgable and informed Railfan/Railroader.
I think you are correct to a large extent. When we were writing the codes for the Luminator Side Signs, some of the old terminology was 'snuck' in. The one that comes quickly to mind is on the "F" train. The Side Signs still refer to it as the "Culver Local".
However, if you notice, some years after the Archer Ave. extension was opened they found that on late night E trains, it stopped at two consecutive stations called Van Wyck. To eliminate confusion, one is called Jamaica-Van Wyck (Archer Ave Ext.) while the original station is now called Briarwood-Van Wyck....
AHA!...So youre the one responsible!! Nice to see transit employees with a sense of history...When I first saw that 'Culver Local" side sign i almost cried........THANK YOU!!
Don't forget: the R-32s and R-38s also refer to the old BMT Southern Division titles on their side route signs on pertinent routes (example: N-Astoria/B'way/Sea Beach), much the same as the R-27s and R-30s did when they were new. The more recent subway maps also have the Southern Division names next to the appropriate route. IMHO, those colorful titles will probably never go away entirely, and it would be a shame if they were allowed to do so.
Personally, I still refer to the N/R in Manhattan as the BMT Broadway line. My sister gets caught off guard when I do this. The L is still the Canarsie line to me. The IND as a whole is still referred to as the 8th Ave. subway; in fact, as late as 1978, the entrances along Queens Blvd. were marked, "Queensborough-8th Ave".
P. S. The A train will always be just that, with or without the R-10s. It may be a bit slower today, but it's still "the quickest way to get to Harlem".
History in a system is important, but sometimes a change is necessary. The E train still terminates at the same place but no-one calls it Hudson Terminal any more. On the other hand, the name Downtown Crossing in Boston gives me fits! I still tell people to change at Washington, and they still get lost, because that name is shown in small type and is less visible through tinted windows on a dimly lit platform.
New York has preserved a good part of its underground history. I was quite impressed with 50th St. Station on the IRT and several others which I passed through on the east side. It works approaching its 100th anniversary, the platform extensions were done in good taste, and you can still get the feel of the 1904 architecture. This isn't the case in Boston, where aluminum column casings, indirect lighting, and spray-on dirt (sound deadening material) make for a truely dismal environment. Only the shape of the original station remains, and the extensions are furnished in "Early Cinder Block" or "Raw Poured Concrete" styles.
NewsDay on Tues. Jan 11th ran a article by Matthew Cox about a change in the State Senate:
Owen Johnson of Babylon has moved to a better paying job (they get a basic salary plus different size "stipend" for committees, etc). Replacing him as Chairman of the Transporation Committee is Senator Caesar Trunzo of Brentwood LI, a 26 year veteran.
"In an interview yeaterday, Trunzo said he has no immediate plans for the committee. He said he is looking forward to a new challenge after serving 14 years as chairman of the Civil Service and Pensions Committee." He will get a $15,000 stipend vs. $9,000 in the former post. Johnson will now get a $34,000 stipend.
"Long Islanders have controlled the Transportation committee since 1955, with the exception of a four year stretch in the 60's"
Copyright Disclaimer: I have identified the source, author and quoted less than 400 words.
Mr t__:^)
I'll want to know :
I'll go to NYC on february 7th. for three days.
I want to go to SHEA STADIUM and NATIONAL TENNIS CENTER, from TIMES SQUARE St. until WILLETS POINT-SHEA STADIUM, by subway # 7.
When subway arrives at Willets Point; How much blocks, meters, or kilometers must I walk?
National Tennis Center is open all the year? Can I to enter to visit NTC? I visit US Tennis Association, but I don't found e-mail address to answer them.
Are distant the Shea Stadium from National Tennis Center.
I'll be very, very grateful to Who respond me.
The Willets Point station is between the tennis center and Shea Stadium. I don't know about the tennis center, but unless you're buying tickets for a game in the summer, Shea Stadium is closed.
-Hank
Can anyone fill me in on how MTA New York City Transit determines passenger loading values at each station of the subway system? Do they have checkers assigned to each door of each car? Do they also make estimates passengers already on the vehicles?
AFAIK, they don't count passengers on the train, but they DO count paid fares, which was fairly easy with the old turnstiles, and probably much simpler now with the electronic turnstiles and the EFC system. Based on this, train frequency and capacity, they can extrapolate loadings. And I'm sure they have a slew of accountants who do just that.
-Hank
The one hole in that system is that it doesn't track how many people leave the stations, as Washington Metro does with its farecards. If you assume a certain percent of passengers travel to Manhattan, you can come up with the cordon counts often referenced. As far as line loadings are concerned, it's more difficult, for example a passenger boarding at Stillwell Av. has three different choices for reaching Dekalb Av. and four for reaching Manhattan. When the 63rd St. connection opens, there will be a similar array of possibilities for the Queens Blvd Line. Because of this, only fares collected is an exact science, everything else is some form of estimate, based on a formula which may or may not be accurate.
The turnstiles also count exits. While it is impossible to track patterns on the TA system, it is possible in a system such as WMATA or BART, where an exit swipe is required. So the NYCTA can find out:
Total Entrys
-Token Entries
-Farecard Entries
-Special Entries (turnstile released for PO/SC/FD/EMT etc)
Total Exits
The computer software can distiguish:
Free Transfers
Weekly Cards
Monthly Cards
Daily Cards
Pay-Per-Use Cards
This most certainly makes the bookkeeping a lot easier.
-Hank
W-e-l-l let say that the system has most of this detail in it somewhere. The rocket scientist who designed the reports (don't know that anybody was asked what they wanted) assumed that we wanted eveything to come out in "portrait" format, i.e. 8 1/2". The result is that a lot of the detail is combined into general headings. DOT has been told that for a small fee that the TA will write a new layout. Interestingly none of the bean counters in the TA have been interested in expanding the scope of the reports (we would all benifit if THEY asked for it for themselves).
e.g. MetroCard & mag (paper) Transfers are all "Transfers received", cash & MetroCard full fares are all "Adult Fare".
This said, we try and use the detail within the reports to plan schedules adjustments & monitor driver/run activity, e.g. just this week I was asked to provide reports to a city agency. The reports clearly showed that folks were getting on our bus on the run at the time the city agency alledged we weren't providing service.
Mr t__:^)
The turnstiles have mechanical counters for:
entrances, tokens, cards, exits. However- we usually do not count exits because many kids love to keep spinning the wheels thus adding to the exit count. At times supervisors do record exit totals.
As a station agent all we record are tokens and that is done from the computer. When we empty the turnstiles (pull the wheels) the total of tokens is sent to our computer. We then count the tokens we pulled to make sure the numbers agree. If not- we pull again taking manual readings from the top of each turnstile and do the math.(The display at the top will show numbers when the wheel is opened.) We then compare that with the computer-agree is good, bad is booth audit which is bad news!
Hank,
NYC Transit does employee what they call Traffic Checkers. I often see them standing on the platforms. They wear the saftey vest and a button with there offical title.(Sorry, Can't remember what the button says) When they are checking a line you will see them at just about every station along the line. I am pretty sure they are making notes on the passenger loads. Other than that I am not sure what they are doing.
The routine changes depending on the goal. Sometimes they're just counting, sometimes seeking more detailed information.
Some of you may recall the story I posted of a trip I took underground December 18th. At Wall Street on the Lex there were two guys, dressed as you said, with clip boards & asking a lot of questions of who ever they caught, they caught me ... I had some fun with them :-)
At this "private" company we do surveys in several ways: The Dispatchers may count folks, in addition to maintaining "headways" & dealing with breakdowns & incidents with customers; we have a couple of checkers that ride different routes (retired employees & others that work part time for us). One summer we had a bunch of siblings of mngt staff that were involved in a big survey effort. I had the pleasure of getting up early on Sat & Sun to bring in my kids for this. I tryed, without sucess, to charge them for the transportation.
The effort made me a few new friends in the Transportation Dept.
Mr t__:^)
Based upon what I have read from various folks who have been kind enough to share information about passenger loading values, it doesn't seem to me that MTA New York City Transit can gauge whether say a 3-minute headway or a 4-minute headway is more appropriate for a given line. For example, a line with a 96-minute cycle time ( running time plus recovery time) would require 32 trains every 3 minutes but only 24 trains every 4 minutes -- quite a difference even considering the imperceptible variation in the level of service to the traveling public.
A wonderful show with a rich blend of historical and newer footage. One statement -- that New York is the only system in the world with a four-track subway for express service -- is not true. Philadelphia's Broad Street Subway has had four-track express service since the late 50's. Also, the Northwestern Elevated in Chicago, a distant precedessor of the CTA, was constructed as a four-track elevated in the early 1900's with local stations spaced about every third of a mile and express stops every mile.
Maybe they don't do their homework on the not-so-large systems. Even Boston gets some attention for being the nation's first subway. We must be the largest overlooked system in the world!
Philadelphia, unfortunately just another exit on I-95 between NYC and D.C.(We don't even get initials:))
You have to settle for Philly.
It can be safely said that New York had the first four-track subway line for local and express service. Chicago didn't get its first subway until 1943 (State St.), and then it and the subsequent Dearborn St. subway are both two-track lines.
Let us not forget London Transport
---various 4 Track Express area--Metropolitan Line
I beleive,,also ,,that Paris RATP has 4 Track Express Sections in the Centre of the City
Steve
North-west London has quite a complicated network of tracks. The Jubilee line is effectively a local Metropolitan Line service (the stations to Stanmore were once served by the Metropolitan Line).
There two tubes (Jubilee Line) and two tunnels between Baker Street and Finchley Road, where everything surfaces and there is cross platform interchange (express on the outside, local on the inside), but passing next to Finchley Road is two tracks for the British Rail marylebone Service. From West Hampstead, there are six tracks running paralell, then briefly eight at Wembley Park there are eight tracks (the Metropolitan increasing to four tracks so that some trains can skip Wembley park). At Wembley park, there is again cross-platform interchange between Jubilee Line and Metropolitan Line local trains.
From Wembley Park, the two Jubilee Line tracks proceed to Stanmore and six tracks (four Metropolitan Line and two British Rail) proceed to Harrow. Some Metropolitan Line trains run express between Wembley Park and Harrow on the Hill, where there is a cross-platform interchange between the two. Harrow is also the first stop for British Rail, but trains serve the south side of the station away from the Metropolitan line service. These tracks are electrified, and LT occasionally experiments with services that are non-stop from Finchley Road to Moor Park which also use these platforms.
From Harrow, two tracks go to Uxbridge and four to Moor Park. British Rail and Metropolitan Expresses share the fast tracks. Unfortunately, cost-cutting meant that the two southern tracks were express while the two northern tracks were local. This causes irritation at Moor Park where cross-platform interchange between express and local trains is not offered. On the other hand, the Watford Line never carried much traffic, it ends far short of the town centre (there are proposals to link this line with a virtually disused British Rail line to give a direct link to the centre of Watford).
From Moor park, there are two tracks each way. Metropolitan Line trains only to Watford, British Rail and Metropolitan Line trains share two tracks to Amersham. From Amersham, British Rail trains run to Aylesbury, as Metropolitan Line steam trains once did a long time ago.
So there you have it. In reality, the Metropolitan Line is a main-line commuter service that was merged with the rest of the Underground. The express service gives a time of approximately 40 minutes from Amersham to Baker Street (fast from Harrow on the Hill).
The other four-track express is between Hammersmith and Acton Town on the Piccadilly/District line. This post has got much too long and I know less about the service pattern in any case. Then there were the plans for express Northern Line and central Line tubes. Unfortunately, World War II put a stop to these. If only...
I seem to recall that the District line's Earl's Court station has four tracks with across-the-platform connections, but by the time you get to Gloucester Road, the line becomes a two-track line, and stays pretty much that way out to Tower Hill. I can't say what happens after that, as that was the only stretch of that line which I rode on back in 1978. If I'm not mistaken, the Circle line also ties in with the District line past Gloucester Road.
I still wish I had ridden on the original 1863 portion when I was there...
I think Earl's Court is actually 3 track, but I could be wrong. It's been a while since I lived in South Kensington.
Two of the tracks in the station are for the eastbound direction where one side of the platform departs for Gloucester Rd. while the other goes to High St. Kensington. Remember that the District line is a large cross with Earl's Court at the center. (Edgeware Rd. in the North, Upminster in the East, Ealing Broadway/Richmond in the West, and Wimbeldon in the South).
There are two more tracks deep underground at Earl's Court for the Picadilly line which acts as an express from Hammersmith through Acton Town.
Earls Court definitely has four platforms, with the two platforms on the south side serving Hammersmith, Olympia and Wimbledon. There is complicated pointwork either side but the Edgware Road and Wimbledon branches diverge very quickly, so this section of the District line cannot really be said to be four (or three) tracked.
Incidently, the Victoria Line originated from the plans for an express Northern Line tube, but in the end it was felt that if money should be spent, it should be on new destinations rather than old. However, in a sense the express role was served anyway. With current schedules, Stockwell to Euston is three minutes faster by Victoria Line than by Northern Line, while Stockwell to Kings Cross is four minutes faster.
I also rode the Piccadilly line from Earl's Court to Piccadilly Circus and also Leicester Square. My sister had asked me to locate the College for the Distributive Trades, which she attended in the fall of 1978; I was there in late May.
I don't think there is any segregated running anywhere between the four surface lines except at terminals and junctions.
The original 1863 section looks even better nor than it did in 1978. In several cases, the brickwork lining the platforms has been sandblasted and reproduction fittings have been added.
The Paris Metro itself doesn't have any express sections but the RER (sort of a cross between Metro and commuter rail operations) has some four-tracked sections in "downtown" Paris (i.e. around Chatelet-Les Halles). I wouldn't call it express though-- I think it's just four tracks for capacity purposes, and not some trains skipping some stations.
-Dave
Actually, Philly isn't even an exit on I-95 between NY and DC. The branch of I-95 though Philly does not directly connect with the branch of I-95 coming south from NY.
North (east) of Philly I-95 becomes I-195 when it crosses into New Jersey. This road then heads south and east to the Jersey Shore.
The NJ Turnpike magically becomes I-95 somewhere north of exit 8. So philly even got screwed in the construction of I-95.
There is a planned interchange between I-95 and the PA turnpike, which is connected to the NJ turpike by a spur, but I don't think construction has started yet.
Sorry, but I-95 DOES go through Philadelphia.(If it doesn't, how does the Frankford line run in its median.) The I-195 is reachable if you cross the Delaware Memorial Bridge, which also leads to the New Jersey Turnpike.
The interchanges in Delaware are very confusing, and drivers can easily wind up on the wrong route.
Dan is correct. I-95 was to be built through central NJ from I-287 to the ring around Trenton (about where I-95 mysteriously becomes I-295). Due to opposition, it will not be built. The NJ Turnpike has been "designated" as I-95 from (I think) Exit 7A to the GW Bridge.
Someday, an interchange is to be built between the PA Turnpike and I-95 north of Phila. At that point, the NJ Turnpike will officially become I-95 from the GW Bridge through the PA Turnpike connection. The PA T'pike will become I-95 from that point to the new I-95 exit (it is now I-276 from Valley Forge, where I-76 leaves, to the Delaware River). What is now I-95 from the new interchange north into NJ would conceivably become I-295.
Got that?
I never said that I-95 doesn't go through Philly. I grew up in philly about 2 miles from the Bridge Street exit and less than a mile from the Market Frankford El. What I said was that If you were travelling from NY to DC on I-95, you wouldn't have an option of exiting in philly - because south of exit 7a (as Bobw said) you wouldn't actually be on I-95 anymore.
What I should have clarified is that I-95 from NY to Philly is not a continuous road.
To get to I-95 in NJ from I-95 in PA you have to:
Get off at the 413 exit travelling north from Philly (after having passed through all of philly on I-95). Take 413 to 13. Then take 13 to the PA turnpike. Cross the bridge to the NJ Turnpike and take the Spur road that feeds into the real turnpike. (Depending on where you are in philly there are other options but they all tend to end up taking about the same amount of time)
Since I live in NY and my boyfriend lives in philly - I know this trip all too well.
My statement wasn't meant as an attack on what you were saying but rather a gripe about how confusing I-95 is between NY and Philly.
Hopefully they will fix this as Bobw mentioned in his post.
I'm trying to find out more about the slopeback RTS's that the NYC DOT had in the late 70's and early 80's. I remember that Triboro coach, Green lines, Jamaica buses, and if I'm not mistaken both Steinway transit/Queens Transit had them.Did Command have them?? What were the interiors like. I know that most went to Green lines later on and I would like to know which were the original lines that ran the ones with the green hard seats and which were the lines that ran them with the tan soft seats.
I don't know the original numbers, but Green (1001-1012) and Queens Surface (188-98, maybe others) are still running them.
At Queens Surface the former Bridgeport RTS-03 (non-slope-back) ARE numbered 193 thru 204. The former Liberty Slope-Back's WERE numbered 177 thru 192 (they all went back to Liberty before 12/31/98). It could very well be that we had other Slope-Backs numbered 188 thru 192, but that's before my time ...
Mr t__:^)
I recall the Port Authority running RTS buses at the Airports especially JFK. Also, some of the car rental companies had a few
The PA used to use slopeback RTS's at Newark too. I haven't seen them in the past few years, instead, now they run newer RTS's (don't know how new -- by the sound of the engines, they're most likely pre-1992). Now they also have a good deal of Orions, both high- and low-floor models.
Avis at LAX used them also. When I went on my honeymoon (11-13-93), we left JFK, and I heard them there with 8 cylinders, and at LAX, they had the same things, but with 6 cylinders.
I never rode them at Jamaica Buses, but at Green Bus Lines (1001-1015) all had the hard green seats. BTW - I saw one recently on the Q60, but I could not get the fleet number. I never did ride them at Tri-boro either as these (and the GMC of Canada, fishbowls) spent nearly their entire careers on the express routes. If I remember correctly Queens/Steinway Transit had only 2, which were numbered 1 & 2. Thurston can probably verify this. I pretty sure that Commands first RTS came approx. 1983. Command had just a few, I believe it was 351-355. These buses had the dark tinted windows and a dot matrix destination on the front only.
Just as some side info, even the TA had a slopeback RTS sometime around 1978 or 79. It ran on Flatbush avenue for awhile (B41) but I don't know if this bus was owned by the TA or if it was lent to them for testing. I remember the interior all white like all the other early RTS buses, and it of course had that door that was flush with the rest of the side panels. I wonder if this bus was later sent to be used on one of the private lines since the TA then bought the Grumman 870.
I believe this demo RTS went back to GM. It's quite possible that it could've ended up at one of the privates especially since the NYCTA didn't buy any series 01 or 03 RTS's.
When I cut thorugh 30th St. today I asked an attendant at the RR counter if they sold FunPasses at 30thSt., since they sold regular Metrocards, I assumed they would, and they said they don't. Do they sell them in Trenton and if not where can I acquire one?
Hudson News in both the World Trade Center and 33rd St. PATH stations sell them. I bought 5 of them for future use at the WTC PATH station last Friday.
Also it's avail in and around Penn Station ...
BUT it's NO FUN to collectors, i.e. they're using the standard issue MC :-( Back in '97 they had a MC that said NYC Fun Pass, incl. a stylized Manhattan skyline, Brooklyn Bridge, Statue of Liberty, Unisphere & skaters at Rockefeller Center (well you don't know where they're actually skating)
Mr t__:^)
How exactly do the FunPasses work? I've never used one but will have to in about 3 weeks.
They look exactly like the other flavors of MetroCard, i.e. the "Value" that you put money in & can share amoung four friends (all at the same time) and incl. free Transfers, OR the Unlimited/Time card ... in fact this is a version of the Unlimited card.
You pay $4.00 and it's good in the subway & on buses for the rest of that day (actually to 3 AM the next morning). The only place it won't work is on the Express bus, a $3.00 fare. There's also a 18 min "lock-out" so you can't "pass it back to a friend".
There is also a new "One-Ride" card comming out as a test in two stations Jan 25th. It's like a token, good for one ride with no transfer privilages. The color is green & it looks like a Transfer.
So, if you'll be here for a week buy a bunch of 24 hour Fun Passes, of a Unlimited Weekly, or a value card. When the Unlimited cards expire, you toss them, but you can add more rides/dollars to the value card. I like the latter because I'm not a regular subway rider, so I put $30 on it & get two rides free, then have a year to use up the value, and have another year to transfer the remaining value to a new card.
Well, I hope this isn't too confusing, Mr t__:^)
How many grade crossings are there on major rapid transit systems(i.e. Chicago, Washington, Boston-I know NYC and Philly have none)?
Chicago has a good number of grade crossings on the CTA rail system, all at the outer ends of the system.
The Purple Line makes two grade crossings along its private right-of-way in the suburb of Wilmette, the crossings being protected by chain-link gates that are closed except when a train is coming through (no other grade crossings on the CTA system have this). Otherwise, it is strictly elevated.
The Yellow Line, which is the remnant of an old interurban line (Chicago, North Shore, & Milwaukee) has a few grade crossings where it runs in a private ROW in the suburb of Skokie. This line also runs elevated and in an open cut.
The Brown Line has a few grade crossings in some Chicago neighborhoods near the end of the line, where it runs fenced-in up the middle of an alley parallel to Lawrence Avenue. Other than that, the line is elevated.
The Cermak Branch of the Blue Line has street operation at the very end of the line, in the suburb of Berwyn. The rest of the Cermak Branch, up to where it meets the Forest Park Branch, is elevated. The Blue line then proceeds as expressway median, subway, elevated, subway, and espressway median again to O'Hare Airport.
New York had one grade crossing on the Canarsie line at E. 105th St. which no longer exists.
Denver's light rail line has two high-speed grade crossings along the private ROW stretch which are gate-protected, and one grade crossing beneath the Colfax Ave. viaduct which is on a sharp curve. Consequently, the trains are running fairly slowly at that point, and the crossing has a signal flasher and bell, but no gate. The LRV operators do not blow the horn at this crossing, but do so at the other two - the typical long-long-short-long when approaching a grade crossing.
The new extension currently under construction is entirely grade separated and will not have any grade crossings.
[New York had one grade crossing on the Canarsie line at E. 105th St. which no longer exists.]
I recall reading somewhere that there are two grade crossings of public streets near the 241st Street yard in the Bronx. In both cases, yard leads rather than mainline track cross the streets, which is why the Canarsie crossing is usually considered the last one on the NY system. It was at least a couple years ago that I read about the Bronx crossings, and unfortunately I can't remember the source. I've never been up to the area and none of the maps I've looked at seem to help much. Does anyone know?
Here's a trivia question: What's the only grade crossing by an LIRR electrified line within city limits, *other* than the Borden Avenue crossing in LIC?
At Little-Neck Parkway on the Port Washington line in Little Neck.
Is that correct?
Wayne
[At Little-Neck Parkway on the Port Washington line in Little Neck.
Is that correct?]
Yep, that's it! What's interesting to note is that despite its grandiose-sounding name, LNP is lightly traveled in that area, really little more than a side street.
Once LNP crosses N Blvd it becomes a bit more meaningful. It becomes divided between the Grand Central and Union Turnpike; at 83 Ave it becomes a formal boulevard, with six lanes for a time on either side of Hillside Avenue. At it southernmost end (s. of 86 Ave) it is a four lane boulevard with a divider. BTW one of my former addresses was 87-62 LNP (from 1981 to 1984). My subway/bus story during the blizzard of 11 February 1983 is another story; I was living there then.
Wayne
OK, Wayne, you've piqued my curiosity. How big of a blizzard was it, and what happened? BTW, on Christmas Eve in 1982, we got almost two feet of snow in Denver.
The snow started on Friday, February 11, 1983 between 11:30 and Noon. By the time it was 12:40pm we were getting some serious snow but no wind. I was working in Williamsburg at the time, Bedford Ave & N.4th, right near my beloved "L" train. The night before I got both our cars off of LNP (it is a snow-route) and took the Q36 bus and "F" train that morning, (changing to an R10 "GG" at QP then to the "L" at Metro Grand). We were dismissed at 3 PM. Rather than go back up the "GG", I took the "L" into Manhattan thinking I'd get a seat on the "F" at 14th Street. By this time the snow was really coming down. I get to 6 Avenue, hop over to the "F" and wait. Snow's coming through the grate. Then the "F" comes, #906 (now #6080). No seats! I had no choice but to tough it out. It got worse and worse. By 47-50th, half of Queens was trying to get on this "F" train. We couldn't load at either 5 Ave or Lex. I don't think we even stopped at 23-Ely. No one could get on or off. There was a near ten-minute delay at QP because people were blocking doors. It was chaotic on the train. People were fighting to get off and on. The platform at QP was wall to wall. We did unload some at Roosevelt and 71 Avenue, but it was still SRO. I finally made it to 179th Street and a huge line was waiting for the Q36. I had no hat on; snow piled up on my head and around my feet.
It was miserable. The line went round the corner of 179th Place. We had 7 inches already. Finally, a half hour and I get on the bus. It took us one hour to get to LNP. We got rerouted down Hollis Court Blvd due to snow on 212th St. By this time it was dark (after 6), and 8 inches on the ground. The blizzard was in full fury with 40 MPH wind and blinding snow. I made it up the hill somehow and ran the one block home. I got into my snow clothes and headed out to Key Food on Hillside & 256th to grab a supply of milk, bread, beer, food etc. The snow ended the next morning at 9AM and we were stuck with over a foot and a half of snow, with a huge drift piled up the steps and against the front door. I made a snow angel and flailed my way out and down the steps; my head popped out of the drift halfway down and my neighbor ran up the side of the mound to assist me. A garbage truck and a bus were marooned in the middle of LNP along with several other vehicles. I didn't get my cars out until Sunday night. Needless to say I didn't go to work Monday, and on Tuesday took the bus & train again.
Wayne
At least that F train didn't break down the way that E train did in 1968.
In case you're wondering where I was headed in Brooklyn during the three years I rode the Canarsie to Lorimer St., it was Annunciation Parish at N. 5th & Havemeier Sts. There was a Lithuanian Saturday school there at the time. In 1970, the school moved to Richmond Hill. The first Lithuanian settlement in Brooklyn was in Williamsburg, BTW.
That's right around the corner (well, almost) from where I worked- I worked at S&S Corrugated Paper Machinery, 160 North 4th (betw. Bedford and Driggs). Our entrance was on Bedford between N.3d and N.4th and I used to use N.3rd and Metropolitan Ave. to park the car all the time.
There was a row of abandoned tenements on the s. side of Metropolitan between Driggs & Bedford that always gave me the creeps. Plus an abandoned gas station in the triangle formed by Bedford, Metropolitan and N.3rd.
Wayne
Metropolitan Ave. goes right by Annunciation Church, too; I've been to Mass there a number of times. There's a triangle in front of the church formed by Metropolitan Ave., N. 5th, and Havemeier Sts. The very first time we rode out there, on Sept. 23, 1967, we got off at Bedford Ave. After that, we got off, and boarded at, Lorimer St. for the next three years. I haven't been back to the area since November 1972.
I've brought this up in nyc.transit, but actually there are more than a half-dozen grade crossings in NYC. Most of the LIRR crossings take place along the Montauk Branch: 88th St, 73 St, Maspeth Ave, 48 St, Borden Ave, as well as the one on the PW Branch.
The (mostly?) inactive Bushwick Branch crosses Morgan and Varick Avenues at grade, without signals.
The SBR formerly ran under the old Culver El and along McDonald Ave, making numerous grade crossings.
The Ridgewood Branch used to parallel Wyckoff Avenue. The tracks were ripped up decades ago, but some signs remain.
[I've brought this up in nyc.transit, but actually there are more than a half-dozen grade crossings in NYC. Most of the LIRR crossings take place along the Montauk Branch: 88th St, 73 St, Maspeth Ave, 48 St, Borden Ave, as well as the one on the PW Branch.]
Also the NYRR/NYCH's lines near the Brooklyn waterfront, which have some crossings and street-running tracks. They include the Third Avenue crossing that connects to the subway.
Little Neck Parkway and Borden Avenue are the only grade crossings on electrified lines. LNP is by far the busiest of all.
[The (mostly?) inactive Bushwick Branch crosses Morgan and Varick Avenues at grade, without signals.]
I'm pretty sure that the Bushwick Branch is completely defunct now.
I agree Peter -- Bushwick, if not totally defunct, is in limbo like the SBK grade trackage by 3rd Ave. and 39th Streets. (Not abandoned, but used so rarely, it almost seems that way).
Doug
SBR service under McDonald Avenue ceased in early 1978. One re-activated RR crossing on S.I. at South Avenue near Chelsea Road, no actual train service yet but will be used for freight in near future.
I can answer for WMATA-DC Metro - No grade crossings whatsoever.
Wayne
The single subway/surface line in Edmonton, Canada has a few grade crossings on its former CN or CP railbed. Incidentally, when you're in the underground stations, not only is there no third rail (all pantograph), but you can barely hear the train when it arrives! It's silent as a ninja! There's also a bridge crossing over the North Saskatchewan river with a fairly picturesque view of the downtown.
In Chicago, I know of 2, possibly 3 lines with grade crossings. The Skokie Swift in the northern tip of the city has a few, but I don't know how many. Also, the line formerly known as the Douglas branch has some, most notably across busy Cicero Ave. Please note that neither of these lines operates on weekends, so if you want to take shots or videos of the trains crossing the streets, plan on doing so during the workweek. On the Douglas branch, I believe between the 54th St/Cermak terminal and Cicero station, there's also a derelict station and it's all original. Another derelict station is on the Lake St. el, and it's very ornate. One other ornate station was preserved and is absolutely stunning (Ashland, I think). You have to be careful around there though, because this area - near United Center arena, is raunchy.
I've never ridden the Ravenswood el, but I understand at its northern end, it goes at ground level. This may indicate more grade crossings.
The Douglas branch actually parallels Cicero Avenue, so there are grade crossings at the major north-south arteries like Central.
The Purple line has two grade crossings up at the Wilmette end of the line. One is at Maple, which actually is at the southern end of the yard serving the Purple line terminal at Linden. I am not sure of the other cross street. Interestingly, the two tracks are blocked by cyclone fences, which swing open individually to allow passage of a train. There is no third rail, so trains do occasionally get caught on the gap.
The stretch of track between Linden and Central stations is actually quite pretty, as you rise from grade level once past the second crossing, passing by the school where my children go and a local golf course, over a bridge, with a nice view over to Northwestern's football stadium.
Well, this may be nitpicking. But just north of the Union station yards, the Red line does cross a service road. Not at all a public road, only accessible by vehicles that can enter Metro's yard, but it is a paved road, and the crossing has a crossbuck and all that...
I am pretty sure that London has none.
The Glasgow Underground (the Clockwork Orange as it is sometimes known) also has none (it is completely underground).
The Tyne and Wear Metro has lots.
I don't know about Liverpool. It almost certainly has them though.
saw this bus on the gowanus this am and thought it was a green bus. however it said command bus. it was totally white. did orion stop painting their buses prior to delivery?
The Green and Queens Surface are white. QS adds red stripes to the side. This is a command bus, most of which have been painted. I wonder what the Triboros will look like?
Queens Surface has an ORANGE stripe thank you ! Triboro is Red.
P.S. I've seen some obviously TA buses stripeless too (on Woodhaven Blvd at the Hot Dog truck, it's a good spot to have lunch & watch buses from Green, Cammand & TA go by).
Orion is having problems getting the buses out on time, so the customers are taking them missing a few items not critical to operations, e.g. painted stripe. We apply the front part of the stripe (that contains our name), add a farebox & send them into the field. Some of the other "privates" were even running buses with out fareboxes for a while just to "make service".
Mr t__:^)
This also seems to be commom practice charter/tour opertors who order MCI 102-D3, DL3 and EL-3 intercity coaches as well as others.
I remember with the NYCTA Grumman 870's - the w/c lift eqipped buses were delivered last and many went into service without radios/antennas and some without license plates, but they were in NYCTA colors.
I just wonder if and when Green will paint their 5500 series Orions.
I don't know why they should delay ... as far as I know they'll get to keep them.
Mr t__:^)
Posted here was information on a news item in the Times about a new flavor of MetroCard.
As you may have recalled I called someone at the TA in Brooklyn to confirm this. Well, my call motivated them to obtain some samples, write an official letter to NYC-DOT, who officially notified all the "private" bus operators ;-)
The letter provides few more details:
- The card is "Transfer stock", this I suspected.
- The MVM will also issued "value" or "time" cards, I suspect they'll LOOK like the current MC, but be on the plastic coated stock that they've been testing for a while.
- The two month "Test" begins Jan 25th with 5 MVM (ATMs) at each of the 2 staions mentioned before.
- The MVMs take cash, debit or credit cards.
- The "green card", i.e. One-Ride, is good for two hours from time of purchase, AND also good on any TA/DOT mode, i.e. bus or subway, BUT NG on Express (hay you want everything) ... maybe it will count as 1.50 toward the Express fare of 3.00 (i.e. Step-Up) ... we'll let someone else try that.
Disclaimer: I don't work for the TA or DOT, & I'm speaking for myself, but the details should be correct.
Mr t__:^)
I stopped in at the Tranist Museum today and bought a few of the $4 Fun Passes (they come in handy from time to time). The ones I got today had a picture of a Ferry boat on the back. It was entitiled:
"the Ferry Boat" Alfred Stieglitz 1910 (I don't know if that is the name of the boat or the photographer). Based on the design of the boat and the number of people on it I would say it is probably an early Staten Island Ferry.
I need to post a subway map from 1979. It has the AA, CC, GG, LL, QB and RR lines.
Does it also have the JFK Express Line and the logo for the "Diamond Jubilee-75th Anniversary" at the bottom?---Also, this map should also reflect the south side of the Manhatten Bridge as being still in service
Does anyone out there know where I can get my hands on some 1970-1980 busmaps, either archives I can study or where I can trade or buy? If anyone out there is willing I have several 1970 subway maps I am willing to trade of some bus operator uniform shirts, brand new to trade also.
I have a lot of the old maps. Some have the drawings on the cover of the batwing buses. My interest to trade is in destination signs. Let me know.
Does anyone out there know where I can get my hands on some 1970-1980 busmaps, either archives I can study or where I can trade or buy? If anyone out there is willing I have several 1970 subway maps I am willing to trade or some bus operator uniform shirts, brand new to trade also.
Anyone seen that Dunken Doughnuts commerical that has the women on the MetroNorth train? She has a box of doughnuts before the speeding train enters a tunnel. When it emerges on the other side, her doughnuts are all gone but the other passengers all have "sugar powder" mustaches!
Very clever commercial, execpt that they made a mistake -- any rail fan with notice that the interior of the MetroNorth cars are clearly the LIRR M-1/3 cars. The shots of the cars going into/out of the tunnels are MetroNorth coaches. Check it out and report back here to confirm my info.
Doug
Are you sure they're not Metro-North M-2 cars, which are almost the same as the M-1s? See if a unit number's visible somewhere (gotta have a eagle eye for that) on a door or car end. You can tell by that what kind of car it is.
Wayne
I don't know about interiors, but the woman DEFINATELY boards an LIRR MU train at Jamacia. All further exterior shots are of Metro-North coaches on the Hudson line. The interiors are definately MUs.
-Hank
Oh, it gets better...
Notice the following (I picked this up on the first viewing)
Yes, those are M -series car interiors. Ok. now, notice. Those are shoreliners (?), and we see no locomotive in site anywhere....
And notice that distinctly ACMUish sound patched in too....
Ah...but my question is does Metro-North REALLY have a way cool tunnel and how long is it and on what line?
[Ah...but my question is does Metro-North REALLY have a way cool tunnel and how long is it and on what line?]
There's the Park Avenue tunnel leading into Grand Central, about 2.5 miles in length. There's also a stretch in the Bronx, near the barely-used Melrose station, where the tracks (Harlem and New Haven) go under an apartment building for a distance that's long enough to seem like a tunnel. Other than that, no real tunnels on the New Haven or Harlem lines, dunno about the Hudson line.
There are a couple on the Hudson Line, but the commercial alters a major point that would otherwise remove the entire punchline - the interior of the train would not plunge into pitch darkness when it enters a tunnel.
Artistic License - It's a good gimmick!
Good point!
I guess the folks who made that commercial weren't familiar with the details of electric transit!
Very good observation!
cya Doug
Yes, especially saying that the train they were showing were diesel :)
Noticing the inconsistencies is what seperates us railfans from the non railfans. The average consumer wouldn't notice this. Tell that to our families & they would think we're nuts! Most subway/railroad commercials are not true to equipment the way we know it. I saw an IKEA commercial Sunday: they outfitted an imitation R32 with furniture. The commercial which really gets to me is that for some pain reliever: some woman is on a train that is going 300 MPH who has a headache! And to top it all off, it looks like she was able to read the trackside ad promoting the product she just took to relieve her pain.
Actually, the station the lady is seen getting on the electric train is not even a MNCRR sta. I think it is either a LIRR or Amtrak.
Secondly, the tunnell is about 1/4 of a mile north of the garrison station on the Hudson line. The tunnel is only a couple hundred of feet long, and it is only on the northbound tracks, and yes it is a desisel train being pulled to Poughkeepsie due to the fact that there are no third rails on the hudson line north of Croton-Harmon.
Who cares about Drunken Donuts on trains or is it Dunken Donuts. I saw an add for Frank Ski and I don't care who he is or Whitney Houston!!! The best add I have ever seen is as follows:
I LIKE SUBWAYS BMT
MY SANDWICHES BLT
AND MY CIGARETTES WINSTON
What we need in an add with a big picture of a corned beef and pastrami sandwich from the Carnegie Deli. The sandwich must be on rye bread and about 3 inches high in the middle. What do you think or do you like those lousy Drunken Donuts?
No offense, but Carnegie Deli is a tourist rip-off. For *real*
New York Deli, try 2nd Ave Deli or Katz's Deli, both on the Lower
East Side.
I havent seen it for a few days..but I thought that the diesel was one of those that MN bought for their PJ service (sorry dont know the model..) It looks like the diesels that NJT uses..only with MTA livery....
My first reaction on seeing the tunnel was that it was the Otisville tunnel on the M-N Port Jervis Line..which is about 15 miles from my house.......
[Anyone seen that Dunken Doughnuts commerical that has the women on the MetroNorth train? She has a box of doughnuts before the speeding train enters a tunnel. When it emerges on the other side, her doughnuts are all gone but the other passengers all have "sugar powder" mustaches!
Very clever commercial, execpt that they made a mistake -- any rail fan with notice that the interior of the MetroNorth cars are clearly the LIRR M-1/3 cars.]
To make this ad really true-to-life, the woman would have opened the box only to find that mice had eaten all the doughnuts!
On the '2311' out of 242st on the one, train was turned at 168st due to a man under at 157st. From the talk of the TSS who rode the train to 168 and the contractors on the platform at 168, the person was struck by a work train. Wound up not getting to work until almost 1am, when I would have been at worst 10 minutes late. Wound up on an A train at 2345, and in Brooklyn because I forogt that Fulton St on the A is called B'way-Nassau. Cost me another fare to walk to the Borough Hall IRT station from Jay St because there was no Manhattan-bound A service.
-Hank
I'll want to know :
I'll go to NYC on february 7th. for three days.
I want to go to SHEA STADIUM and NATIONAL TENNIS CENTER, from TIMES SQUARE St. until WILLETS POINT-SHEA STADIUM, by subway # 7.
When subway arrives at Willets Point; How much blocks, meters, or kilometers must I walk?
National Tennis Center is open all the year? Can I to enter to visit NTC? I visit US Tennis Association, but I don't found e-mail address to answer them.
Are distant the Shea Stadium from National Tennis Center.
I'll be very, very grateful to Who respond me.
The National Tennis is a five minute walk from the station. When you
exit the train, walk on the boardwalk that goes over the subway yard.
You will see the tennis center on your right. It is open year-round as they have indoor courts. I don't think you can get into the Arthur
Ashe stadium, though you can walk the grounds.
Didn't you ask this yesterday?
It's less than a mile from the station. Convert to metric is left as an exercise to the reader.
Please, this is not a general tourist board. Please take general tourist questions elsewhere.
And, What's the site that I can ask about general tourist questions?
I searched in all pages of NYC and don't found anything.
Here's one I found:
Ask Joe The Doorman: Are you planning a trip to New York City?
Is there a question about the Big Apple you've just gotta know?
http://www.nyctourist.com/askjoe.htm
Also check out Yahoo! New York and Sidewalk New York I think they both have chat/message board systems.
-Dave
Follow the signs and walk over the boardwalk over the Corona Yard and between the maintenanace and transportation buildings of Casey Stengel and over the LIRR station and you are there
I don't think there is much tennis in Feb.
Does anyone have an updated material regarding service plans,,once the 63 St Tunnel opens??
I know that there was a study done,,a few years ago ,regarding this .
Thank you
Steve
I was told my grandfather died while moonlighting as a subway maintenance worker in the 50's. Anyone know of a resource where I could uncover details/facts?
There is a plaque in the lobby of the NYC Transit Authority building at 370 Jay St. Brooklyn. It list all the people who died while serving the T.A. It also lists the date as well as there title. I know this is going a little backwords, but it is a start. I am sure someone on these message boards either works there, or has occasion to go there and can take a few minutes to check for you. He can also be researched by his "tax number", this is the number all T.A. workers are issued and kept track of. Again, I am sure there is someone on the boards who has access to the information.
GOOD LUCK on your search.
"Joe Buff"
Transit Buff
I was fighting with the TA mainframe yesterday (the responce time was realy bad), it gave me the chance to catch up on my reading ... :-)
The Nov/Dec issue of Metro magazine, a trade, had a very short item about Seattle & since Zack just gave us a little input about the GFI fareboxes there, I thought you all might like a little more data:
"7 Agency Colition Wants Smart Cards ... A coalition of seven Puget Sound transit agencies will issue a request for proposals this fall for a smart card system. "A single card will replace about 300 different passes now issued by the agencies," said Paul Toliver, director of the King County DOT in Seattle. "New fare discounts and purchase options will be available to all riders." Up to one million cards are expected to be issued.
Separately, on page 23 of the same issue is an adv from GFI for their "Odyssey Revence Center" farebox ... it takes coin, bills, SMART CARDS, dip cards, mag. transfers and credit cards. So, unless the "suits" are mad at GFI it would seem that we know what farebox they're going to use.
Mr t__:^)
I recall a lot of postings on the LRV plan for JFK incl. routing options, but I don't remember anyone saying that it was going to be a driverless system :-(
A two page article in the Nov/Dec issue of Metro, a trade, by Cliff Henke talks about existing/proposed systems in Atlanta, Taipei, Ankara, Paris, Copenhagen, Kuala Lumpur, Singapore, Hong Kong, Vancouver, Detroit and NYC (JFK). They call them "AGT", Automated Guideway Transit, vs. LRV.
Peter Stangl, remember him ... says ...the JFK job will use a new generation of the MK II vehicles used in Kuala Lumpur's new Putra line. Stangl may also have something to do with the Vancouver Skytrain, since it's also a MK II, as is the Atlanta system.
There are a few more details about the JFK system, e.g. 8.4 mile, billion dollars system, etc., but this we know already.
Copyright Disclaimer: I've purposely mentioned the publication & author and quoted less than 400 words.
Mr t__:^)
I attended a presentation about the JFK system at a NY Division of the ERA last year. My recollection is that it will be driverless, however there will be roving "police" for security (sounds dicey to me especially since international visitors who may not be NYC-savvy are on board). Does anyone recall anything else from this presentation?
-tg for cbs news.... dallas! (but on the way back to snowy boston)
The last item I found of interest (to me), in the Nov/Dec issue of Metro, a trade, is about the Smart Cards system in Hong Kong, by Cliff Henke. This system was a pilot in Dec. '95, and expanded Sept. '97.
As a collector of dip/swipe/smart cards I found interesting that ...
"we actually ran out of cards,: says Floyd Diaz. "The original contract called for four million cards to be issued. Creative Star (the transit operator) has sold 6.5 million per year and the system has been upgraded to handle more than that." ... "There are more cards in circulation than there are inhabitants of Hong Kong, partly because they are seen as a COLLECTOR'S item by both residents and tourists,"
I don't have one yet :-(
I did get some hansom transit cards from Tokyo in an interesting barter trade. I'm very happy with the cards & hope that my friend across the sea is equally pleased with what I sent him.
Mr t__:^)
Where can we get bus depot logos?
Also interested in the old black with white letter "MaBSTOA" patch used after the city took over the bus operations (I think the NYCTA had a similiar patch but with the letters "NYCTA").
As well as the new "M" uniform patch.
Special interest in Fifth Avenue Coach driver's badge and patch.
Please advise
Was reading a lot of posts about the expanding the Shuttle and the #7 there were a lot of good ideas.
I however have always envisioned a 110th Street crosstown line with connections to the #1 at Broadway, the IND at CPW, the #2,#3 north of the park, the #6 at Lexington and theoretically the 2nd Avenue line.
My line would run east into Queens and stop at Astoria to connect with the BMT and then make stops at La Guardia and Shea Stadium and perhapse beyond. Such a line could provide additional crosstown service, ease congestion on the varius Queens lines and provide easy access to La Guardia from both the North and the South. Extending an existing Queens line to La Guardia would not be so convenient for people in the Bronx, Harlem and Washinton Heights.
Another notion of mine has always been a PATH or PATH-Like line with the following stops.
Newark Airport
Downtown Newark
Meadowlands/Sports Complex
110th and Broadway
110th and CPW
110th and Lexington
Astoria
La Guardia Airport
Shea Stadium
Perhapse they could run one on top of the other.
Just day dreaming.
I had always thought about a crosstown at 125th; it would be more convenient to those who transferred to and from the other lines b/c you'd be hitting express stops at the IRT-Lexington and at the IND. That would make the route basically faster from everywhere, even from downtown (you won't need to transfer to the locals).
Of course, tunneling under 110th just sounds so much easier; you'd only have half the private-property-infringement complaints where Central Park borders it.
And then there's the dilemma of the TA's long-term transit plan:
1. Take any profit and store it.
2. Wait until something brakes.
3. Fix it with aforementioned cash.
That's why we haven't gotten any major route extensions in...how long?
It's too bad they don't want to apply this method to the Manhattan Bridge.
What about an 86th Street Shuttle, connecting Broadway, CPW, Lexington and proposed 2nd Avenue??
72nd Street Shuttle?
23rd Street??
Canal Street???
What about a line with the following stops?
86th and York
86th and 2nd
86th and Lex
86th and 5th
Columbus Circle
(Then passing under the colliseum sight to continue down 9th Avenue)
57th and 9th
50th and 9th
42nd and 9th
34th
23rd
14th
and down the West Sige drive, (above ground) to Battery Park City???
One option is to build underpasses under the major crosstown streets (a la the 1st Avenue underpass under 42nd St), then give the crosstown streets signal priority and put bus lanes at the curb.
That would certainly work on 86th St. You'd put underpasses under 86th on 1st, 2nd, 3rd, Madison, and 5th, Columbus, Amsterdam, and West End. Then you'd give 86th St 3:1 signal priority over all those streets, speeding the 86 bus across.
The same plan might also work on 23rd and 57th Streets. These streets could serve as a "loop" for express buses circulating though Midtown.
UNfortunately, I'm told that each underpass cost $50 million.
First and 42nd is kind of unique in they were able to build the First Ave. tunnel while they were building the Unied Nations, and unlike today, where the area is coveted real estate, at the end of WWII First Ave. was far less desireable, with the area around the U.N. mnainly industrial (which is why the pre-WWII Tudor City is basically a flight up from the rest of the area). Because of that there were no NIMBY problems when the tunnel was built.
Any other avenue they put a tunnel under (Third, Madison, Ninth) would have to have the same wide areas they have on First Ave. at 41st and 48th streets for local traffic to get on and off, which would probably mean tearing some buildings down -- Major protests, TV cameras everywhere and for most politicans, not worth the effort.
In a perfect world, they'd build the Second Ave. line and put express bus-only lanes underground either next to or above it, which would take a lot of the north-south congestion off the east side and speed the trips in from the other boroughs to midtown and lower Manhattan, but don't count on it for the next few millenium.
David, I am in the process of filming a Subway documentary where me and a friend (The Cameraman) ride the entire subway with one fair. We would also give a little bit of history wile we where ridding. The film would air on Manhattan Neighborhood Network in several parts. I was wondering if I could list you web site, with others, in the program.
Be my guest! :)
-Dave
I know that the NYCTA had a few grumman express buses. What were there numbers and how many were there?
In addition, some Grummans were equiped with a front wheelchair lift. How many of those were there and what were there numbers?
Someont told me that some Grummans had 2 by 2 seating and I think I remember those. How many of those were there and what were there numbers?
I didn't quite answer your questions the first time.
There were 200 wheelchair lift equipped buses I knew most of the 870's numbers, but not all of them, but I'll give at a try
Lift equipped buses:
NYCTA Approx: 451-564
MaBSTOA Approx 811-910
Buses without lifts:
NYCTA 199, 201-430???, PA1-PA95
MaBSTOA 601-810, PA96-PA175
Again, I don't know how many were express buses, but I'm sure the low 400's were expresses w/o lifts and approx the last 15 500's were and had w/c lifts.
I know that the NYCTA had a few grumman express buses with soft seats. What were there numbers and how many were there?
In addition, some Grummans were equiped with a front wheelchair lift. How many of those were there and what were there numbers?
Someont told me that some Grummans had 2 by 2 hard seating and I think I remember those. How many of those were there and what were there numbers?
A few Grummans did indeed have 2x2 seating (both transit and suburban config.)
I'm not sure about their TA/MABSTOA numbers, but NJ Transit operates those very buses, which are numbered 1500-1600 and 2000-2518, many of which still have the original seats. They will be around for only about another year or so, so move fast if you want to ride these.
Yes, you're right there were a few of them. First with the NYCTA Grumman 870 most of buses (600 give or take a few) did not have w/c lifts while 200 of them did have w/c lifts.
The lift equipped buses were numbered 4XX and 5XX at NYCTA and 8XX and 9XX at MaBSTOA. The last of the TA lift equipped buses (I believe 551 to approx 564 had padded seats. These buses also were 96 inches wide (all others in NYCTA fleet were 102 in. wide) and they had 8-cylinder, 8V-71 engines (all others were 6-cylinder 6V-71 engines). This group operated on SI express routes.
There were some more NYCTA Grumman 870 (6 cylinder, 102 in. wide) express buses and I think they had the high back cushioned seats like the GM and TMC RTS express buses. These buses I believe were numbered in the low 400's and were at Ulmer Park depot before the NYCTA withdrew them from service.
Then there was also #100 that was a demo. It was 102 inches wide with an 8-cylinder engine and it had cushioned seats. #100 was renumbered 199 and assigned to Queens Village depot's express route X68 (it was the X18 at that time).
Also many local Grumman 970's would get assigned to express runs.
A direct rail link to Newark airport from Manhattan makes sense. Newark is now the busiest of the 3 metro area airports. A short eastward extension of the NJT/Amtrak NE corridor line north of Elizabeth, NJ would be able to loop through the airport terminals via the industrial area west of the airport. This one-seat rail extension will cost much less than the proposed 'light rail' service to JFK. A joint MTA/PA/NJT project could be funded at reasonable cost to each agency with much less disruption to residential communities than the JFK link will cause.
there is monorail project under construction now will do that. work has begin on the stations on the NEC. the monorail will travel over rt1-9 and over the NEC.
Today's NY Daily News features an article on a new sportsplex on the West Side, over the railyard. Included is a new MSG, and a domed stadium attached to the Javits Center.
The plan likely would cost billions of dollars, but Giuliani provided few details and no cost estimate. It includes a proposal to extend the No. 7 subway line from Times Square to a new station near 12th Ave. and W. 33d St.
-Hank
This article is also in the New York Post for Friday January 15. This sounds like a good idea, but where is the money coming from to extend the #7 line and would they not have to do the work on the #7 line before they build the new MSG and the new football stadium if this comes about?
Charlie Muller of The Bronx.
Could it be that Rudy or one of his staff has been monitoring this site & picking up on some of our great ideas ????
Mr t__:^)
City Planning pushed the transit extension as a necessary component of a West Side sports complex, to overcome environmental/traffic objections. But don't hold your breath. The MTA has refused to study the issue, focusing instead on improved connections for suburban commuters, including those in NJ.
Well, they could kill two birds with one stone by extending the 7, putting stops at Ninth Ave. (Port Authority) and 11th Ave., then running it under the river to New Jersey to help the commuters there
What has been said here by others, incl. yours truely, is that they could turn South & use the unused lower level single track platform at 8th Ave, that would take care of the Port Auth, then turn West at 34th to get the new Sports Complex & Javits ... then goto NJ.
Mr t__:^)
I understand that the Flushing Line is at the same level with the 8th Ave., making it hard, if not impossible to extend west.
I believe it is at the same level as the lower level track/platform. Story goes that this track and platform were built with the specific purpose of preventing a westward extension of the IRT line.
In any event, as this track is rarely used, severing it to allow the #7 line to be extended westward would not be a great loss.
There was a small article in Friday the 1/15 issue of Newsday. It incl. a diagram that show stations for METRONORTH as well as #7 and LIRR. So how do they plan to get MetroNorth there, via the West side track ?
Mr t__:^)
I noticed a newly-installed selector box at the end of the Manhattan-bound R train platform at Bay Ridge Avenue (the last stop before the N train joins the R on Fourth Avenue), with buttons for "local" and "express."
Does anyone know if the TA has any plans to regularly run Fourth Avenue expresses from 95th Street in the near future? Or the distant future? Or what the box is for, otherwise?
Thanks!
I believe that in the late 1950s, the 4th Ave. "Banker's Special" runs (95th St - Nassua Loop) used the express tracks between 59th and DeKalb (maybe only in the off-peak direction).
Mike Stanton mentions putting switch controls at Bay Ridge Avenue for choosing the local or express track at 59th Street and Fourth Avenue. Is there a similar board in place at 8th Avenue on the Sea Beach? It would seem that the major reason for those controls is to get rid of a tower and get rid of a few more employees.
Ed Sachs mentioned the Bankers' Specials--the Fourth Avenue Specials ran express from 59th to Chambers from the 1930s, with a stop at Pacific. From the mid-1950s until the end of service, whenever that finally was--I had moved north by then--a stop at 36th Street was added. That happened at the same time that they added 36th to the rush-hour Sea Beach stops.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
There are no current plans for an R express. However, that doesn't mean that the R trains have no reason to run express. The train operator might 'punch' for the express line-up to get around a stalled train, or if he's running light back to the yard or to lay up a train.
Late at night the R runs as a shuttle from 95th St., and runs up 4tk to turn north of 36th St.
Maybe there should be an R express to replace the N. The N essentially duplicates the B/M and is close to the R and very close to the F from Kings Highway to Coney Island. With free transfers, wouldn't it be cost effective, at minimal inconvenience, to eliminate the expense of maintaining tracks and stations along the N, and beefing up service on the R and maybe the B/M? These lines are all close together, compared with those in other parts of the city. Maybe this could help justify peak period B/M and even F service.
What do you think?
Mike Rothenberg
Because of the track arrangements at 59th St., it makes more sense operationally to have the N train run express and the R local.
I remeber that in the 50s they decided to route all IRT west side locals up the Broadway Line and all expresses up Lenox to avoid having trains cross over at 96th. Having the N run local and R run express would cause similar operational problems.
I agree with Ed Sachs's comment about it making more sense to leave N as express (or restore it 24/7) and R as local through 59th Street/Fourth Avenue. But as an old Bay Ridger who used the Specials almost every day going to high school in Manhattan, it would be nice to see specials, such as one that would run 95th Street-4th Avenue-Sixth Avenue express. (It would also be nice to see "4th Avenue" on the electronic signs--it seems pretty rotten to see "Culver Local" on the IND but not see "4th Avenue" on the BMT.)
Ed also mentions the 1950s decision to change IRT West Side service so all locals went up Broadway and all expresses up Lenox. The reason was not to avoid having trains cross north of 96th--what happened was that the TA reneged on the promise to rebuild 96th so the southbound (especially) delays could be alleviated. It was another one of those typical TA things (like the "temporary" interruption of Lexington night-time express service--how long is it since 59th Street was finished?).
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Lexington Ave. express service (#4) ran 24/7 during the 1960s and '70s, stopping at 59th St. Sometime in the 1980s it was discontinued, I don't remember any claim that this was a "temporary" measure.
Dan Schwartz's mention of 24/7 expresses on Lexington is the first time I've heard mention of that. With family in Brooklyn and my living upstate, I didn't have occasion to ride the line late at night for many years and wasn't aware the service was restored for a while. But why was it then discontinued again? Aren't there a lot of riders on the East Side at night? Are there so many more riders overnight on Sixth Avenue or Seventh Avenue that they both get local and express service but nobody else does?
I really wonder how many riders are discouraged from riding the subways late at night by the TA's policy of reducing almost all service to locals and also reducing the number of routes operating (look at BMT Broadway--reduced from four 24/7 services to one). What are the figures over the years when the changes have been made? Maybe the TA executives' limousines should be reduced to one vehicle once a day in each direction so they share in the results of their lack of concern for riders.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
My Hagstrom's map from the mid-60s does have a Lexington Ave.-Jerome Ave. local listing which ran during the late hours much the same as today's 4.
As for the West Side having both local and express service 24/7, both the 1 and 2 operate at all times, do not share a common terminal, and run on separate tracks between 96th St. and Chambers St. This line is heavily traveled at all hours, so it has the best of both factors going for it.
My idea was not to make the N local and R express: my idea was to eliminate the N line from 59th St. to Coney Island entirely, considering how close the R, B/M and F lines are and adding a new service in addition to the R service from 95th St. that would follow the N route to Astoria. It would go express in Brooklyn from 59th St. to Pacific Street, and if the Manhattan Bridge ever opens again to Broadway service, would continue as an express up Broadway. Shutting N service along its route from 59th St. to Coney Island still leaves a train-intensive network on southern Brooklyn, with little additional distance for current N riders to get to the R, B/M and F lines. Existing bus transfer priveleges would also minimize the impact, if any. The result would still leave the area with transit lines closer than now exist in many areas of Queens and the Bronx. The N, and B/M essentially intertwine and seem duplicative so I don't see a loss in transit patronage from the area. But the cost of maintaining transit
in the area would drop because the N infrastructure, stations and station personnel could be eliminated. No one would lose their jobs because overall attrition, retirements, etc. would quickly allow the affected people to be assigned to other areas. And the existing operations on the R, B/M and F would become more cost-effective since more people would be using existing stations and more fares would be collected without, I believe, needing more station agent staff. With more riders on the B/M and F lines, peak period express service on them would be more justifiable and likely to happen.
Mike Rothenberg
If Mike Rothenberg would really want to get rid of "redundant" service in southern Brooklyn (where, I would guess, he does not live), wouldn't it make far more sense to get rid of one of the elevateds like the Culver or the West End rather than closing down the Sea Beach cut which would leave a gaping wound across those neighborhoods. At least the surface streets are already there and once the elevateds are gone, the street would still be usable. The cut wouldn't be very useful for anything, even paved, since it wouldn't offer a limited-access route to places where a lot of people would like to drive. Or would he fill the cut in and make it a bike path?
We shouldn't forget that the people of the City paid for that route to be a rapid-transit line--it's bad enough that they were given minimum express service on the route, which the TA as operator has reduced even further, but it still belongs to the people who paid for it.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
This gets to the problem. Yes, the lines are redundant, but given where they are there is no way to get rid of one and still leave everyone served. The Sea Beach is in the wrong place, but the West End is an old el. You'd almost have to build one new line to replace two old ones.
The TA should keep the Sea Beach line for three simple reasons:
1. It's there already (no construction required)
2. It works fine (except maybe the express tracks, which they've let fall into disrepair)
3. The money they'd save by not using it would probably disappear in a shell game. All the execs would get Christmas bonuses for a couple of years.
The whole concept of eliminating the N brings back the terrifying memories of the Third Avenue El's fate. Granted, this WAS in Manhattan, but it's the same concept. The TA decided that the line was duplicating the Lexington Avenue Subway, and in addition, bus lines could support the population of the Upper East Side. The promised "Second Avenue Subway" STILL hasn't been built (the execs stole that cash too).
There is absolutely no good reason for eliminating a functioning subway route. 62nd Street is not exactly around the corner from 86th Street, nor is West 7th Street that terribly close to New Utrecht Avenue. The only places where there might be a little bit of duplicity is around the transfer point at 62nd and New Utrecht.
Plus the Sea Beach line is almost entirely in an open cut and is rather solidly built. There are numerous bridges, tunnels, overpasses, station-houses etc. It would be somewhat more complicated to remove this almost-all-concrete structure than it would be to dismantle a box-girder elevated.
Wayne
Whichever, the lack of a Broadway express is a glaring omission on the subway map. Somehow, some way, it should be brought back. Not to mention it's probably my favorite subway ride on the NYCT system...
We probably won't see Broadway express service again until either the south side tracks on the Manhattan Bridge reopen, or the 63rd St. connector is finished, or maybe both. The express tracks have been reballasted, so it stands to reason that there is every intention of eventually restoring express service. The way things stand now, trains would have to merge at either end, which would cause potential delays and make any time savings moot. I like the express run on Broadway, too, BTW.
I'm looking for a list of train schedules leaving Grand Central Station:Manhattan. I am unable to find the appropriate site. Please help and e-mail where I can find train and subway schedules leaving from that station. Thank You.
david salazar
dsalazar@uclink4.berkeley.edu
Go to http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/
select metro north commuter railroad and you can look up the MNCR schedules
On Wednesday night, two men were killed when they ran on the tracks in front of an airport-bound R1. They got through via a hole in a fence during some type of domestic dispute.
I have posted before about how lax SEPTA seems to be about security, particularly around rail transit(RR tracks and the Frankford Yard).
Many a time have I been on a passing RR train to see children playing on the other tracks(particularly on the R7 tracks, shared with HIGH SPEED AMTRAK TRAINS!!!)
Frankford Yard might as well be a public facility, the way it is kept wide open in some areas.
Any thoughts?
You read right. 11th Avenue/Whitestone line. I just did this earlier today. How does this route sound?
(via 34th St.) *11th Avenue/J.K. Javits Center, 8 Avenue/Penn Station(1/2/3/9/A/C/E),5/6 Avenues/Herald Square-Empire State Building(B/D/F/Q/N/R/S), Lexington Avenue(6)[Manhattan]||[Queens](via street around Border Ave.)5th St, 23rd St, 27th St, Hunterspoint Avenue,(via Greenpoint Avenue) 43rd St, 47th Avenue, 51st St,58th St, 69th St, 76th St(via Elmhurst Ave)Queens Blvd(G/R), Roosevelt Avenue(7), Junction Blvd, 104th St, 108th St, 41st Avenue,{tunnel portal} Shea Stadium(7), Willets Point Blvd., Main St(Idon't remember which street, but it's perpendicular to Main Street,of course),Union St, 31st Dr,25th Avenue, 20th Avenue, 14th Avenue*
This line has 28 stations and two tracks until Hunterspoint Avenue where a third track emerges for rush hour service to: Hunterspoint, Queens Blvd. and Roosevelt Ave., Shea Stadium, Main Street and 20th Avenue. After 20th, it merges with the two main tracks.
I figure there could be track connections between the 7 and 8at Roosevelt Avenue/Elmhurst Ave and at Shea Stadium where the 8 would have a yard lead to the Corona Yard.
Crazy, huh? This is just something I did to console myself at the thought of losing the Redbirds. If this route were to ever be built(HA!)it would be an extreme move just to hold on to the Redbirds.
Actually, if they extend the 7 to Javits Center, I believe that would be the first new IRT station addition since they hooked up the Dyre Ave. line to the 2/5, and the first new construction since either the Nostrand Ave. extension or the Main St. Flushing station, a mere 70 years ago.
The city, and later the TA and MTA, put a much bigger priority on expanding the IND lines (because of their larger car size) so the best chance to save the Redbirds for a while, at least, would be probably as rush hour cars on the Eastern Division of the BMT (with platform extenders), after the 63rd Street tunnel opens and the IND-BMT is supposed to be short of rolling stock.
Wouldn't be the first time that ex-IRT equipment went to the BMT. In the late 50s, the Culver and Franklin shuttle lines operated with modified IRT low-Vs (with door sill extensions and opposite side trip cocks).
Actually, a new IRT station was opened in 1968, namely 148th St.-Lenox Terminal (the entrance to which is really at 149th St. and 7th Ave.).
The lower level at 59th St.-Lexington Ave., which opened in 1959 (I think), was also a new set of IRT platforms. Whether it qualifies as a "new station" depends on your definition, I guess.
The Redbirds are unlikely to be kept because of their corrosion problems. Once they are gone, NYCT will be running all stainless-steel cars.
You're right. I was thinking of a completely new extension to a station, since 148th-Lennox was built into the edge of the yard area and 59th was created on the exsisting Lexington Av. express line.
A 7 extension to 11th Ave. would be the first time since the 20s that an IRT line would get a new station along with a tunnel extension to get to it, though judging by the voices against Rudy's plan, the IRT may have to wait another 70 years before they get a line extended (If Guliani really wanted to tick some people off, he could have unveiled a plan to continue the 7 extension from 33rd-11th by using the old NY Central overhead tracks to go downtown -- the people in Chelsea would have loved that)
Actually, the MTA announced about a month ago that they would retain 120 cars that they had planned to retire, and I think these were to be Redbirds. There were several articles in the press about this, but only one of them mentioned which cars were to be kept. Can anybody confirm where this was stated?
It would make sense to keep that many Redbirds. Look at it this way: 1080 new cars are or will be on order, and there are approximately 1200 Redbirds. IMHO, they'll hand-pick those cars with the least amount of corrosion, and hopefully some of them will be single R-33s.
I know I'd like to see a few Redbirds retained.
Does anyone know why the NYCTA has the ceiling fans in the subway cars running and also with little or no heat that normally comes from underneathe the seats. Case in point is the IRT #7 line which has the ceiling fans running constantly and hardly any heat from below.
The 39 R-33s with fans have 1960s technology heat controls. In the cars with AC, the HVAC control is far more sophisticated. All NYCT cars are designed to maintain an interior car temp. between 59 and 72 degreed F. When the temp drops below 59 degrees, the floor heat contactor picks up and when the temp rises above 71 degrees, the AC comes on. The blowers run constantly although they will run at low speed when the AC is off or in low cool. There is also ceiling heat for when the car is either very cold or when the AC is in high cool (to help de-humidify). In addition, the temperature sensors are staggered so the AC at both ends come on at 1 or 2 degree seperation (for example: the #1 end will go into low cool at 72 degrees but the #2 end will not run until temp reaches 73 or 74 degrees)
The idea of having the fans run when heating is that the floor heat will cook your ankles but do little else when left to its own devices. The fans keep the air moving and circulate the heat. This is the same idea as those slow running ceiling fans in everyone's homes. (And boy do those remind me of the fans in IND R1-9 cars!
Gerry
Hi all.
If any of you fellow Subtalkers are going on this tour (1/17), I'd be interested in any new historical information on the portions of the West End, Sea Beach (and maybe Culver) lines that you will visit. I would like to incorporate this information into my writeups on BMT history where applicible. Full credit will be provided to any contributors, of course.
Thanks.
--Mark
i heard back in the late 50s and early 60s there used to be an express bullet service on the sea beach line that used to run express from 59st sta. in bklyn. to coney island non stop for beach goers in the summer months does anyone know if trhis is true???thanks ..
The "express bullet" on the Sea Beach ended in 1952 or 1953. I rode it as a kid from 59th Street.
The service was the Franklin-Nassau, which started at Franklin, making the stops to Prospect Park, then running express down the Brighton Line, using the upper level at West Eighth Street, and into Stillwell on old Track 'A'--now Track '1.' It then ran non-stop to 59th, and then stopped at 36th, Pacific, and Chambers. It was run on summer Sundays and holidays. (I think the service listings said "Weather permitting.") In the other direction, they used Stillwell Track 'C' or 'D,' now '3' and '4,' and the upper level through West Eighth to the Brighton express tracks. I think they were restricted to six BMT Standards because of the short length of the tail track south of Chambers Street.
An old BMTer in the mid-1950s BMT Trainmaster's Office at 370 Jay Street told me that in the late 1920s and through the 1930s, they ran those trains out of Stillwell to Chambers to connect to the Lower East Side and the Williamsburgh Bridge lines on "no headway"--as fast as they could load them up, they moved them out.
Actually, the ramps up from street level at Stillwell and from the Norton's Point trolley ramp on the Coney Island lines were wall-to-wall people in the late afternoon every weekend and holiday; that was true through the 1940s and into the early 1950s, before the TA eliminated expresses and before Robert Moses eliminated most of the amusement district and converted the beach into front yards for those apartment houses.
In 1952 or so, the Sea Beach trains from Chambers to Coney Island were not packed, but there were a fair number of peole standing from 59th to Stillwell. It was a great ride in either direction.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
> I think they were restricted to six BMT Standards because of
> the short length of the tail track south of Chambers Street.
I don't know about the tail track at Chambers St., but the stations on
the Franklin Shuttle route only had platforms long enough for six car
trains (except for Botanic Gardens). I believe that the terminal track
at Franklin Ave. could easily accommodate 8 cars, but the last two
would have been off the platform.
I had also read somewhere that they ran the lightweight,stainless-steel, 1930's-constructed articulated, "Zephyr" on the franklin-nassau service. They placed a white, round "plate" on the front of the train(to identify the service) and called it the "white ball express". The "zephyr", during the '40s and early '50s, was part of the equipment makeup of the franklin ave service on the BMT.
BMT standards used on the Franklin-Nassau special also had a white ball on the right front pantograph gate. There are such photos in Subway Cars of the BMT; in fact, one of the photos has Shore Line's very own 2775 with a white ball plainly visible.
Other than the Franklin-Nassau special, the NX was the only other revenue service ever to use the Sea Beach express tracks. A wasted resource, IMHO.
Just a thought on Brooklyn Transit.
One Word - Competition
Four different companies opened routes to Coney Island - thus the stretch from Prospect Park to CI is overserved by the subway.
Even the IRT line out Nostrand Av serves some of this area (more competition)
Other BRT predecessors pushed corridor service out Myrtle and Lexington Avs and Fulton St. The Broadway Line intersected all of these, and to the south the IRT added its Livonia line, followed by the 14th St. line along the north edge. Then the IND came along and built a line along... Fulton St.
Thus parts of Brooklyn have - or had - a plethora of service and other parts are still waiting for transit over a hundred years later!
I was on the web today and found a site with some interesting information about the Schuylkill Valley Metro. I didn't know it was to have a route into Center City.
Does anyone have further knowledge about what this will ultimately turn out to be?
How can I view this site ,,also
Steve
www.subways.net
I don't remember it exactly, but I got to it through there.
Depending on who you listen to, the SVM will either:
1. Leave the "Callowhill Cut" (a/k/a the City Subway branch of the former Reading Lines) at 17th SB, via 17th, Ben Franklin Parkway, Arch, 15th to Market, contraflowing on the north side of Market St between 15th & 16th (which would be its terminal). Return via Market, 16th, to the Cut.
2. Leave the Cut at 15th SB and run directly on 15th to Market. This would serve the proposed baseball stadium on the Inquirer site better.
3. Leave the Cut at 17th SB, via 17th, Franklintown, 17th to Chestnut. Return via Chestnut, 16th, Vine, Franklintown, 18th to the Cut. (An option here would be to operate two-way on Chestnut further into town. This track could also be used by the proposed Historic Trolley.)
4. Leave the cut at 12th SB, using Route 23 tracks on 11th & 12th to at least Chestnut. Problem with this is that the Cut no longer is continuous beneath Broad St - the Inquirer has expanded in this area.
Of course, there are many (I'm in this group) who believe that all the speed, convenience, etc advantanges of the SVM will be lost on any on-street trackage and that the line should be routed into the $330 million Commuter Tunnel.
Do the SVM plans call for it to be another regional rail line (R9), using the same type of rolling stock as existing lines? Or will it be an extension of another line, such as the MFL, Broad St, or PATCO...
My worst fear is that they will create something else altogether - the last thing we need is another rail system - we already have six incompatible types of local rail!
SEPTA has studied light rail, electrified commuter rail, and diesel rail cars. So far, light rail seems to be the mode of choice. However, some rail enthusiast groups want commuter rail. Personally, I think a 62-mile light rail line is a bit much. As I've expressed in a separate posting, I also believe this line needs to serve the Commuter Tunnel and not get stuck in on-street traffic. If you think an exclusive transit lane will work in Center City, take a close look at the soon-to-be-decommissioned Chestnut Street "Transitway".
Chestnut St?
And going in the opposite direction, I'm assuming Walnut St?
I don't think any extra traffic or a totally separate rail line would be good for those streets, they are packed with non-moving traffic all the time!
I can't think of any routes into CC without it running on either Broad or Market, or on 20th St. or the BF Parkway. Any other street and you just be creating another traffic grind.
I like JFK Blvd. It would run parallel to the RR lines and could have a major station there or even tying into the RR lines before the 20th St. portal.
No, Chestnut St! Someone obviously thinks bringing two-way transit back to the Transitway makes sense. I thought we learned it didn't a few years ago when 42 got moved back to Walnut St. I guess not!
The problem with trying to find new routes in CC is because the streets are either too small to even have station entrances on the corners, already have lines or are too far away from where people go
(let's consider CC bounded by Vine Street, South St. and the two rivers)
Broad, Market and JFK Blvd are gone because of their existing routes.
N/S streets in the running could be 20th, 16th or 5th. 8th St has PATCO and the Ridge Avenue line, and of course Broad St.
The Parkway sounds good if it turned into some kind of line along Callowhill(?) or Arch St.
Chestnut I don't at all like, but I think Walnut is fine.
Spruce or Pines Sts? Would any of those residents want rapid tranist there? It may drop property values!!!!!
Finally South Street. A popular youth spot, but space is quickly becoming scarce for a tree, let along a station entrance, and you certainly couldn't put one in the 11th-5th St zone!
It sounds like the best course of action for any new rapid transit in the city is to come from a residential neighborhood and the connect to an already existing line.
Sad, but true.
You are correct, sir! That's why I think the solution requires billions! Of course, there is always some capacity on Broad St and in the Commuter Tunnel...
I was wondering if anyone was ever interested in making a live chatroom based on our favorite forum-Sub Talk?
gonz
I have a script for the creation of web-based chat. And I know someone who wouldn't mind hosting another chat room.
Generally, my problem with the subways has been that they don't go anywhere near my home. Which is in Bayside. This time, I have the problem of too many ways to go, and I'm trying to figure it out. I want to go from Bedford Pk Blvd. either on the 4 or D train, or I could take a bus to the 1, down to the Transit Museum. There are a lot of routes to go there. Any advice on what is the best one?
The way I always go, is to take any IRT 2,3,4, or rush hour 5 train to Boro Hall. Then it's just a short walk to the Transit Museum.
Take the 4 to Borough Hall (1st Stop in Brooklyn). At that station use the staircase to the left of the Token Booth. Walk 1/2 block to Boerum Place, then left 2 blocks to Schermerhron St.
or
Take the D to any station on the 6th Av line (thru Broadway-Lafayette) change for the F. Take the F to Boro Hall-Jay St.
(You can also chnage fro the D to the A train at 59th St and take that to Jay St. At Jay St use staircases at the middle of the platform. At Wilhouby St walk 2 1/3 blocks to Adams St. Go left 2 blocks (it is Boerum Place when you cross to the other side. Procedd as if you took the # 4.
So you can see (as you already stated) there are many ways to get there
The #4 is definitely a more direct route, as it goes straight down the east side of Manhattan. With the D you'd be riding to the west side and back for no good reason, and changing trains as well. Take the #4 to Borough Hall. Go upstairs and right out through the turnstiles, then left. You will be about a block and a half away.
I'm doing research for a play that takes place in a NY subway station in 1964. Does anyone have any ideas where I could find info and/or photos of the subway around this time?
We're re-creating the interior of a train, a platform and the entrance to the subway, including the ads that may have been up and how they were displayed. I'm particularly interested in finding a contemporary map of the system, with info on how it was displayed.
Were the trains and platforms clean or not at that time? Was there grafitti already? We're looking for the general feel of the system.
I'd appreciate any feedback on the subject. Thank you.
The map used then was the red/green/black line "Worlds Fair Map". I think there's a section on maps somewhere on this site. It was displayed on a panel inside the car much as it is today.
For period equipment, see the following pages in the "NYC Subway Car Roster" - R1, R4, R6, R7, R9, R10, R12, R14, R15, R16, R17, R21, R22,
R27/30, R26, R28, R29, R32, R33, R36. Also see BMT B-Type. The R32 and R36 were first delivered in 1964.
There was NO graffitti.
The stations were so-so; not spotless but by the same token, not filthy. Depending on the station, you will want either flourescent or incandescent (IND stations mostly) lighting.
By the way, which station and train are you recreating?
Wayne
I HAVE A 1964 W.F. MAP. THE INSIDE WAS WRITTEN ON. (AS A KID, I HAD NOTHING BETTER TO DO). THE W.F. BACK SIDE IS PERFECT.
THE R10,12,14,15'S HAD CANE SEATING. THE R16,17, 21, 22 HAS RED PADDED RED SEATS. THE I.R.T. CARS WERE NEVER CLEANED, EXCEPT THE #7 (BECAUSE OF THE W.F.) THE SUBWAY WAS EXTEAMLY DIRTY. AFTER 9 MONTHS IN SERVICE, YOU NEVER KNEW THAT THE R33'S WERE RED. THEY LOOKED LIKE THE R22'S.
POSTERS: DOUBLEMINT GUM, MISS SUBWAYS.
VENDING MACHINES IN MAJOR STATIONS (UNDERGROUND) GUM (CHICLETS, DENTYNE) 1 CENT EACH. THEY HAD MIRRORS ON THEM.(CARE TO COMB YOUR HAIR?) SODA MACHINES. (CUPS) 10 OR 15 CENTS.
THESE ARE SOME OF MY MEMORIES AS A KID.
Thanks for the response, it helps a lot. Anyway I could get a picture of the map? Or do you know of anyone on the web who put one in their website?
Thanks again!
Why not take a look around *this* web site?
http://www.nycsubway.org/histmaps/ - Historical Maps
Thanks for the info! Just the kind of stuff I'm looking for.
I don't know yet which station we're doing. The production designer put me in charge of finding out as much as possible so he could base his designs on fact. Unfortunately I'm in Los Angeles and can't go to NY, otherwise I'd go straight to the Transit museum. I have been there before and it's really interesting.
I'll check out the pages you recommended. Hopefully I'll find some images I can give to the Production Designer. I'll also be going to our central library to see if they have anything.
Thanks again!
You may also wish to check out the Line-by-Line, Station-by-station section. Click on the link and you'll go there. There are hundreds of station pictures, past and present within the subsections.
Let me know which station you choose and I will supply you with whatever detail information that I have.
Enjoy your mini-tour!
Wayne
Try giving the NYC Transit Museum a call at (718) 243-3063. They should be able to give you an old subway map from that era and some of the ads that were run during that time. They might also have some photos showing the conditions of subway stations and related areas. Ask for Mr. Malcolm Martin. Let him know you are researching for a live performance.
Good luck. Doug
Thanks, BMT Man!
I'll do that on Monday. It's really neat to see how many people are interested in the subject and willing to help out.
Have a good one!
The subway fare was 15 cents in 1964.
The Triplex units were still in service on the BMT Southern Division that year. Their phaseout began when the R-32s started arriving in the fall.
The last Lo-Vs were withdrawn from service on the IRT mainlines that fall. Those which remained were assigned to the 3rd Ave. el.
On the IND, it was all R-1/9s, with the R-10s reigning supreme on the A line.
I remember a Milky Way ad on the R-32s which featured a girl with chocolate all over her face and a big grin. There was a caption which asked, "Do all minors (sp.) dig Milky Way?"
In The New York Post on Sunday January 17, 1999 there is an article about plans to unveiled for a massive project under 2nd Aveune, with five new lines and three tunnels connecting the East Side to other parts of New York City.
This proposed 20 year Metro East plan would help relieve crowding along Lwxington Ave- the only subway line on the East Side.
After you read the full article, your thoughts are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of the Bronx.
Can you post parts or Hilights of the Article
Thank you
steve
Read the Article On Line:
http://www.nypostonline.com/news/9118.html
-Michael
A new article on the Second Ave line is in the Monday January 18 New York Post. In it Mayor Rudy Giuliani says it is so big it might get approved. He also says the scope of what was put out by the Regional Plan might be a pipe dream. More of your thoughts on this is most welcome.
Charlie Muller of the Bronx.
I am making a correction on my previous message in the 1st sentence, it should read it might NEVER get approved Mayor Giuliani warned yesterday.
Charlie Muller of the Bronx.
I never got to read the article. It's no longer on the Post's website. What exactly is the plan? I read the NY Times article today in which Guliani says that first priority is the bring the 7 further West. That's important but hardly a priority compared to the East Side, the Manhattan Bridge, and LGA.
Yeah, well Giuliani's plan to bring the #7 further west is not as simple as it seems. The Flushing train extension plan is part and parcel of his "pie-in-the-sky" proposal to build a multi-use Sportsplex on West Side Manhattan.
If the stadium plan is a no-go, then I am sure this #7 line west side expansion will never get done. Both projects are intertwined.
Doug
I too was rather upset about Giuliani's prioritization. The 7 extension, though certainly a great idea, pales in comparison to the absolute need for new lines on the east side. When will the politician realize that "if you build them, they will ride"? A half assed second avenue line terminating at 63rd street would probably do more harm than good. We _need_ a line which goes from 125th street to the South Street Seaport. If the politicians were really concerned about building a city that attracts new business and is truly prepared for the 21st century, they would build the 2nd avenue subway.
The NYT mentioned 5 new lines along 2nd avenue. Does anyone have any information about that?
I would also add that the notion of building a line that terminates at 63rd Street along 2nd Avenue is racist. The people of Harlem need subway service too.
[I would also add that the notion of building a line that terminates at 63rd Street along 2nd Avenue is racist. The people of Harlem need subway service too.]
Joey, the line wouldn't TERMINATE at 63rd Street...that would be useless! The line would connect with the existing tunnel under E. and W. 63rd Street and the trains would then go down Broadway, probably using the express tracks.
BTW, the Regional Plan Association is good at drawing lines on subway maps and saying, "Build This!", but not so good at saying who's going to pay for it, or how.
David
It sounds like you are implying that the line would only be built SOUTH of 63rd.
All the plans I've heard of, with a Second Avenue line that stops at 63rd, involve building the line NORTH of 63rd on Second Avenue. The line would proceed south from Harlem (probably also the Bronx) and then curve into the Broadway Line at 63rd.
Two of the five lines would serve Harlem.
At least one and maybe two lines would serve Jamaica.
Two would serve central Brooklyn and Bedford/Stuyvesant.
1 ("W"): Co-Op City via Harlem down 2nd Ave to 63rd then down Broadway to Whitehall St.
2 ("Y"): 125th/Lex or 125th/2nd down 2nd Ave to Water St, through new tunnel to Brooklyn and on to Jamaica.
3 ("V"): Laurelton/Jamaica Center via Queens Blvd to 63rd, down 2nd Ave, then through Lower East Side via Ave. C and connect with Rutgers St. tunnel and existing "F" line to Kings Highway.
4 ("P"): Grand Central then down 2nd Ave to Water St, through new tunnel to Brooklyn and on to either Jamaica or Kennedy Airport.
5 ("U"): Grand Central then down 2nd Ave to connect w/Nassau Street and through Montague Tunnel following "N" line out to Bensonhurst.
NOTE: THE LETTER DESIGNATIONS ARE MINE ALONE.
Wayne
(Racist) That's why I wrote the MTA suggesting that the line be built from 63rd St to East Harlem with NO STATIONS, then be expanded to the Bronx. If the MTA builds a line serving the Upper East Side, then Black racists will accuse it of racism. Meanwhile, white racists will object on the grounds that people from Harlem would use the train to get to their neighborhood.
So I propose that the line have a station or two in East Harlem and connect to the (Pelham Line) 6, then run as expresses. All trains from the Bronx would run express. Since Blacks and Latinos, but not whites, would get the benefit of the line, the Black racists would be happy. And, of course, limo riders on the Upper East Side would not be bothered by having 2nd Ave torn up -- you'd just tunnel under the whole thing.
Meanwhile, you'd build a turnaround for the Lex Local after 125th, which would be just for the Upper East Side, further pleasing those closet white racists. Hate to adjust plans to hate, but its there, so I guess we have to deal with it.
Unless this is supposed to be a "modest proposal" commenting on racism (by both whites and blacks), this is about the most utterly useless proposal that I've read so far!!
Isn't the whole purpose of the Second Avenue Line to relieve pressure on the Lexington Avenue Line, which would not be seriously accomplished if the entire Upper East Side is skipped by the trains (only the 125th and 116th Street Lex stations would have alternative Second Avenue service in your proposal)? And isn't there enough service to the Bronx as it is?
As to 'closet white racists,' this is asinine. I've never heard of people unwilling to live on the Upper East Side or catch the subway there because the Lex (already, without the Second Avenue Line) goes into Harlem, nor on the Upper West Side or CPW because the 1-2-3-9 and A-B-C-D pass through Harlem. And if there are white people unwilling to live there because the subway (ALREADY!!!!) connects to Harlem, they are more than outnumbered by the tens of thousands of people who not only live there but also take the Lexington subway, which is why a REAL Second Avenue project is needed in the first place!
[As to 'closet white racists,' this is asinine. I've never heard of people unwilling to live on the Upper East Side or catch the subway there because the Lex (already, without the Second Avenue Line) goes into Harlem, nor on the Upper West Side or CPW because the 1-2-3-9 and A-B-C-D pass through Harlem.]
Racial fears may have an effect on Long Island Rail Road commuting patterns. Commuters heading to lower Manhattan may be able to get there faster by taking the LIRR to the Flatbush Avenue terminal in Brooklyn than to Penn Station. Yet according to some reasonable-sounding claims, many riders nevertheless stick with Penn Station because getting to lower Manhattan from Flatbush Avenue requires getting the IRT subway at the adjacent Atlantic Avenue station. All four of the IRT lines serving Atlantic Avenue (2,3,4,5) originate in largely black neighborhoods, so the ridership on their trains is probably 90% minority when the trains arrive at Atlantic. Apparently that's too much for some LIRR commuters, though I've never heard of any incidents that would justify these fears (after all, most of the IRT riders, just like the LIRR commuters, are heading to work).
It's possible for LIRR riders at Flatbush Avenue to get the (considerably whiteer) N and R subways, but those lines offer a slower trip into lower Manhattan and probably have no time advantage vs. Penn Station.
Oh, I don't doubt that minority ridership of transit sometimes affects a town or neighborhood's attitude toward the extension of rail service to that town or neighborhood. Not in every case (for example, the St Louis Metrolink was built, despite the fact that it terminates in black and impoverished East St. Louis), but some, and more so in the suburbs than the city.
But I repeat that, in the case of the Upper East Side, an argument that residents would oppose a Second Avenue Subway because it could bring Harlem residents into the neighborhood just doesn't hold water, because the Lexington Subway does just that RIGHT NOW, and middle class and upper middle class (and upper class) white people still live in the neighborhood and ride the subway there, in sufficient numbers that the Lexington Subway overcrowding problem exists.
Crowding may have also been a reason. Historically, the IRT was so crowded you couldn't get on. That was the case when my wife was commuting in from the island circa 1985. But I've been riding it, after a walk through Prospect Park, and believe it or not there is plenty of room on the #2 and #3 almost all of the time. People pack onto the #4 and #5 until you can't breathe, but leave space on the local. Maybe Long Islanders should try it again, as long as they aren't express addicts.
That's slightly debatable. By the time any #2,#3,#4,#5 train arrives at Atlantic Avenue during the AM Peak, it already crowded to capacity. There are a considerable number of commuters who use the Flatbush Avenue line as a route to lower Manhattan. There are also a considerable number who use Penn Station and the "A" train. There seem to be less crowded conditions on the southbound "A"s, at least from my own observations. If I were commuting - I'd hop on the "M" train (if I arrived at Pacific Street during its window of operation, which I think should be extended by a half hour.) Twelve minutes and I'm at Wall and Broad.
Wayne
[That's slightly debatable. By the time any #2,#3,#4,#5 train arrives at Atlantic Avenue during the AM Peak, it already crowded to capacity. There are a considerable number of commuters who use the Flatbush Avenue line as a route to lower Manhattan.]
You're right that many LIRR riders do use Flatbush Avenue. From what I understand, however, the numbers are way, way down from years past (granted, to some extent that may be attributable to the "migration" of lower Manhattan jobs to Midtown). Supposedly, the LIRR runs as many rush hour trains to and from Flatbush as it does not because the ridership demand is there, but because they claim there isn't capacity at Penn.
As far as IRT crowding is concerned, I've found that (as mentioned elsewhere on this thread) the 2 and 3 do have some capacity at Atlantic Avenue, while the 4 and 5 are indeed jammed.
(Never heard of people on the Upper East Side worried about people coming down from Harlem.)
As a fellow land use professional, as you can imagine that's where this stuff comes out. When Toys R Us wanted to put a store on 86th St, the neighborhood went ballistic about the "outsiders" this would bring in, and how it would change the ambiance. A bullshit rezoning went through to keep a movie theater out of a site at Lex and 59th, same reason.
Yes I'm serious. To cut crowding on the Lex, you have to get someone off. The Manhattan only plan gets Manhattanites off, but leaves Pelham riders with a long local ride. My plan gets Bronxites off by shooting the Pelham line (which would have to convert to B division -- I think it is possible per prior threads) down to Midtown via Second Ave. Either way, less people on the Lex. MTA way, Bronx riders have a longer ride, Manhattan riders have a shorter walk. My way, Bronx riders have a faster ride, Manhattan riders have a longer walk.
Of course, if we had the money we could three or four track it.
This article doesnt really say much about anything happening but you can read it at http://nypostonline.com/news/9118.htm
Lots of ideas in the article -- maybe too much in these days of fiscal limits.
The story doesn't prioritze any one route, but I would hope they would use the one with the Co-Op city/Amtrak extension in the Bronx and (apparently) the Nassau Loop/Montague St. tunnel route though lower Manhattan, since that would show the general public they're trying to use existing lines to cut costs. They could also save a couple of bucks by sharing the L line track on the planned link between 14th and Second and Ave. C, where it would turn south to meet the F and the Rutgers tunnel.
The Second Ave. line alone is going to be expensive enough -- adding up the total cost of all those projects (probably in the $15-$20 billion range) and trying to get the funding for all at the same time would stop anything from being done.
While building the Manhattan side of the 63rd St connection, 'ramps' were built into the 2nd Ave subway. Also, the tail tracks at parsons/Archer on the E line already extend roughly 2,500' beyond the station. The original plan was that this segment would continue along Merrick Blvd, Francis Lewis Blvd. and Springfield Blvd. to Rosedale Queens. The plans have been completed for 20 years so all that would be necessary would be to update them and do the environmental impact study. Of course with 'NIMBY' and local political wannabes, this could take another ten years before the first shovel tastes dirt.
The online article does not show the diagram of the proposal, which is in the printed NY Post. This is a very ambitious plan. Let us all hope that it comes to fruition. This, however, leaves me with several questions.
1. No mention of the Manhattan Bridge dilemma was mentioned.
2. The Bronx portion, no doubt, will connect in the Port Morris yard south of 132nd Street, as originally planned.
3. The Avenue "C"-to-Rutgers Tunnel is a surprise. They'd have to tunnel under the existing "L" line from 2nd Avenue to Avenue "C". And connecting to the Rutgers tunnel is another question-once the line gets off Avenue "C" and onto Pitt Street, where does it go to connect with Rutgers? Does it connect on the Manhattan side or does it through another tunnel to connect on the Brooklyn Side.
4. Does this plan mean that the LIRR Flatbush Avenue line will be ceded to NYCT?
5. Are they going to resurrect the plan to reuse the LIRR track to Laurelton Station or use the plan described by Steve, which goes under the local streets?
6. The connection to GCT is shown on the diagram as a spur going west from 2nd Avenue and ending at GCT.
7. In order to re-route the "N" to this line, they'd have to hook it into the Nassau St. subway at Chambers Street (using the old Manhattan Bridge connector?) What do they do about Astoria? Run the "R" there?
If so, what about the 60th St-Queens Plaza connection? Is that now obsolete?
I'm sure I'll come up with more questions.
Wayne
They spoke about this in the late 1960's. Again in the early 1970's. If you really beleive all this, I know someone who wishes to sell you part of the Brooklyn Bridge! It is nothing but spectulation.
You are right! I have the TA brochure (7/1969) detailing similar plans and a NY Times (6/20/1971) 31-page section going into even greater detail regarding the 'expansion'. Unless the RPA is printing money somewhere, forget-about-it!! The RPA people are in dreamland, they don't have real jobs so have plenty of time to concoct these wonderful plans.
>>The RPA people are in dreamland, they don't have real jobs so have plenty of time to concoct these wonderful plans.
Aw, c'mon--I have a real job and I still find time to come up with wonderful plans. You're right, though, that the RPA is purely an advocacy group, not any kind of government agency; that's why, as many have noticed, their recommendations implicitly or explicitly contradict MTA planning and policy in many specifics, and why cost isn't any kind of concern to them. Nevertheless, I'd rather have on the public record a prioritized 20-year plan for regional transit, to be realized in stages as funding permits, than the MTA's present black-box strategy process, which seems to consist of waiting to see what falls down and then starting to fix it.
31 pages?!? Wow ... gotta check this one out!
--Mark
The 31-page NYT item is from way back in 1971 when the original, never completed subway expansions were first proposed by the MTA. The main NYP library might have it, or maybe even the NY Times itself has it filed away in a box somewhere. The MTA had all these great plans that evaporated in the NYS/NYC fiscal crises of the early 1970s.
NYPL - http://www.nypl.org
NYT - http://www.nytimes.com
Thanks ... on my next trip to NYPL I'll be sure to have a look.
--Mark
For the sake of those of us who for whatever reason do not have access to the Post either on line or on newsprint, could posters please at least let us know what you're talking about? For example, Wayne Whitehorne writes,"in order to re-route the 'N' into this line, . . .' what's the line? Or, "Does this plan mean . . .?"--what's the plan? I'm sure there's some way to handle this without gross copyright infringement.
Thanks for helping those of us without ESP.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
In answer to a couple of your observations:
1. a new tunnel from Water St to Atlantic Terminal would be pretty close to the Manhattan Bridge, and offer a possible alternative. With a short connection to Grand St, this could be the replacement for the bridge that has been suggested for about 45 years now, but was always dismissed as being too expensive.
7. It didn't say that the N would be reouted. This is a new line, that would run with the N in Brooklyn
Running a line from Harlem to Janaica via Water Street? Who would take that? Plus, the line would seem to duplicate already existing A/C service to East New York and J/Z service east of there.
So long as they want to build a link from the Second Ave. line to the 14th St. L for that Ave. C hookup, they might as well use the East River tunnel as well, and run the line along the L's tracks to Graham Ave., then build a new line along Metropolitan Ave. to hook up with the J/Z where it goes underground past 121st St. That route would serve an area that currently has little subway access, except for the M at 67th Street.
Oh well, at least the Second Ave. project will be back as a topic in the mainstream media for a couple of days.
I got the paper and saw the diagram. The Water St connection is west of Montague St. I assumed it was further up by Fulton or something. I don't know why they would build a new tunnel down there and not one to replace the Manhattan Bridge, which they've always said was too expensive. (Wait till Larry gets a load of this).
It looks like they are assuming the Bridge will be fully closed. The Co-op City line will run express on Broadway, but switch over to the local to go to Whitehall. The 2nd Av line will run through the Grand St station with a switch connection, and you'd think some Bridge service would be routed up 2nd Av (The Bensonhurst route could do this, instead of Montague), but nothing is mentioned.
In answer to another of Wayne's questions, the Av C line would simply swing west to connect to the F line. No new tunnel is mentioned there; the crossing says "existing F tunnel"
Funny, the new tunnel to Atlantic could be used to bring LIRR and perhaps also Metro North to lower Manhattan, as people have been suggesting. I wonder what made them come up with these ideas when there are so many others that have been pushed back for so long.
Unfortunately, I was unable to get a copy of the paper, which showed the route. Can somebody fax me a copy of the paper that showed all of the new RPA proposed routes (including the new 2nd Avenue Subway)? My email is brothanubi@aol.com. My fax number is 212-531-0141 (att: Joe Pressley). Thanks!
Ditto for me on the faxing of the article ... you can fax it to (914) 357-0249. Much appreciated.
--Mark
I've just returned home after spending the weekend in Newcastle (England). This city has its own metro system. The view from the front of the cars is superb, in fact the front seat faces out of a full width window giving an un-restricted view. The cabs are of course half width. Apart from the NY subawy cars does any one know of other systems which have have good front views ? Alas no views are possible on the London Underground, Paris Metro, of Brussels Metro except on the pre-metro trams where you can elbow the driver out of the way. I feel that the front facing view really makes a subway ride just that little bit more exciting. What is going to happen when the Redbirds go ? Will the view be lost forever?
Ride the new Philadelphia M-4 el cars. They have a great railfan seat opposite the 1/3 cab for the operator. I love to ride them and listen to the crisp station announcements thru a superb P.A. system. They picked out a female voice to do the announcements, and she is really easy to understand.
Come pay Phila. a visit!
Chuck Greene
Its actually suprising that every other city went to or is going to full width cabs,but here in Philly on the Market-Frankford cars they have a nice railfan window.Usually SEPTA tries to go with the flow with other transit systems just because they are doing it,but not this time.Kudos to Septa.It just ashame the M-4s are ugly with its horrible roof line aong other numerous problems.
Well, Simon, the days of the railfan window may be nearing an end on the IRT - however, they are supposed to be giving 120 Redbirds a reprieve (not sure which models; probably will be R36s) so you'll still get a front window there; as for "B" division, there are still hundreds (well over a thousand) R32s, R38s, R40s (elongated window!), R40Ms and R42s still knocking about, and will be for some time to come; I was on R32 #3773 yesterday at the RF window all the way from 23d Street to Sutphin Blvd on the "E". A great ride, esp.on the Queens Boulevard express tracks.
Wayne
Wayne, you are making me jealous. I cant wait to get over again. If the Redbirds are reprieved - well thats just great. Perhaps a trip also the Philly.
And in addition to the surviving railfan windows on the subway, they can be found on Metro-North's and the LIRR's MU cars. A railfan window view on an LIRR train in the Atlantic Avenue tunnel is just as fun as anything on the subway.
Agreed, Peter, provided that the engineer closes his compartment door and the crew makes the front two MUs available to the passengers.
I think a ride up front on the Babylon express is quite enjoyable.
Wayne
Ah yes, the infamous M-1 cab door. Doesn't some regulation out there say they MUST keep that door closed?
Oh yes, and Septas old Market equipment had a feature that no other cars had: an OPENABLE railfan window!!! It just multiplied the fun by a factor of 1000!!!! Ok, maybe to those railfans who aren't used to being blasted with wind at 40 mph, but for me it was (literally) a blast! That, and you could smack your arm against the t/o's window and scare the crap out of him. (maybe this is why new stuff has non opening windows?)
> Septas old Market equipment had a feature that no other cars had: an
> OPENABLE railfan window!!!
Ummm, lots of NY subway equipment had a railfan window that opened, starting with the D-Types and ending with the R-22s. In fact, if you're fortunate to ride the 2/5 and catch redbird 7773 at the front situated in just the right way, you'll be able to treat yourself to an open railfan window. One of the storm doors was replaced with one from an R-21/22.
--Mark
Even earlier than the D-types were the BMT Standards which had railfan windows that opened. The old gate cars on the els sometimes ran with open doors in front, but I guess that wouldn't really count.
I always found the circular windows (R-11, R-15, R-16, R-17) really uncomfortable to try to lean on to get that wonderful air full of steel dust and underground odors into my lungs. There was hope when they put the square opening windows on the R-21/22s, but alas, the IRT/IND tradition reasserted itself after that and we've had no more opening railfan windows. And now they're taking away even the non-opening window style. (Of course, the BMT itself painted over the end windows that would have been great railfan seats on the Standards and the Triplexes even before the IND showed up. That was one of the few negative things the BMT did. 8-( )
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
The R-1/9s also had windows up front initially. As was the case with the BMT standards, these windows were painted over or replaced with metal panels. R-1 #100 at the Transit Museum has a bulkhead window, I believe, while R-4 #484 does not.
Hey Mark;
The old El cars in Philly did have a opening window, but you really got a blast of air in your face while watching the view!
Chuck Greene
Even better, I believe the driver's side window on some LIRR MP-54s could open also. At least I vaguely remember seeing one that did once, when I get near one again all try to get a closer look...
I knew NYC subways had openable railfan windows, but not since I started railfanning (hey, I'm ONLY 20 :) Ahh, and Path does too, but they're locked. Besides, Path is so anal that they'd probbly chuck you off the train if you did open it.
I'm used to being blasted in the face, so I found the Philly stuff to be freshing and fun anyway...
I was fortunate to have many a "blast in your face" experience railfanning in the early '70s. I'll never forget the R-9 I rode on the F train one summer in '74 approaching West 8th in Brooklyn ... the front door was unlocked! So naturally I opened it :)
--Mark
[Agreed, Peter, provided that the engineer closes his compartment door and the crew makes the front two MUs available to the passengers.
I think a ride up front on the Babylon express is quite enjoyable.]
Usually I've been able to just squeeze around the open engineer's door and still enjoy the railfan window. Actually, having the open door behind me is not such a bad thing, as there isn't the "on public display" feeling one sometimes gets :-) I've never had an engineer say anything when I go around the open door - that might be because they really aren't supposed to have the doors open at all.
While a window view on Babylon is okay, Ronkonkoma is more enjoyable IMO because of the street-level running vs. Babylon's embankment. I'm looking forward to window rides on the other MU lines.
Chicago's 6000-series L cars actually had a railfan seat at the operator's end. This practice was continued on later equipment as well. Unfortunately, OPTO has put an end to all that. The front area has been roped off on the 2200, 2400, and 2600-series cars, according to my aunt. At least on the 3200s, you can still see through the full-width cab thanks to plain old windows. Too bad they didn't do that on the R-68s...
Yes, it's roped off, but you can still sit in the second seat behind the "railfan seat" and enjoy the view.
--Mark
What's the rationale behind making it virtually impossible to see out the front of the cars with full-width cabs? I am assuming "operator privacy," but why? Bus drivers don't get any privacy, so why train operators?
It's not privacy, it's glare. Bus drivers don't have to look down a dark tunnel. Even with good headlights, it can be difficult to see track obstructions with glare from the cabin behind. Heavily smoked glass or an opaque wall makes it easier to see far ahead into the tunnel.
I should have thought of that. During night operations at Seashore last summer I was operating Third Av. Railways #631 in the dead of night, and was very glad I had the curtain behind me. Even with that, I had to keep my face pretty close to the windshield to be able to see the tracks in front of me, as #631 has about the brightest interior lights of any of our cars.
... and one of the least effective headlights. :)
Yeah...that didn't help much, either!
Baltimore's Cars (and I suspect Miami's - same design/builder) have a forward facing seat in front of a window into the (ugh) full width cab. You get the view that motormen on right hand cabs get. (Our station platforms are ALL on the left, the operator has a full view of the platforms at every stop. (And the head better be out the window, looking back BEFORE closing the doors.)
Some time ago ther was an offer on Subtalk to E-Mail R44/R46 reumber lists.I have only just got my own E-Mail so I would appreciate the poster getting in touch as I would like the R44 list
r-44 car numbers were as follows 100-199,as of1/97
If anyone has the January 1999 NYCT Agenda on upcoming proposed changes for bus & subway routes, please post on the subtalk.
Thanks,
John
I usually do
Steve
FDNY
It usually comes out,,after the 15 of the month
I had to transfer at Canal Street the other day from the Broadway BMT to the JMZ, and while I walked through the Broadway express station, I thought about everything that's been said about fixing it up.
Does anybody know when (if?) they're going to be opening up the Manhattan bridge south side tracks again (and, as a result, start up the Broadway express service)? I know it's supposedly a very expensive project, but I can't find out any details anywhere. Could somebody more informed than me shed some light?
Hi all. I was talking to my pricipal about my subway line. He said that I might be able to recive a grant from the board of Ed. If I can give the Subway Line in deatail. I have a station plan but I have have no station plan and no track map. Can anybody design a track map and station plans. I will send you the details. From how long the stations are to the roads which the tracks will be under and the names of all the stations. If someone can help it would be a great thing. Thank you for your time.
Christopher Rivera
Contact the Regional Plan Association. They are the ones proposing the plan, but it has very few details.
Do you have a phone number that I can call?
Christopher
The RPA has a web site: http://www.rpa.org/
I looked at the RPA web site, albeit briefly. Anyone know if a summary of their MetroEast proposals are posted there? I didn't see it ....
--Mark
Christopher,
I am very interested in the 2nd Avenue Subway project. Regional Plan Associates has a website at www.rpa.org.
Ill take care of those windows for you as I did to the Arrow IIs
Recently the TA issued a bulletin to operating personnel restricting the top speed of these cars to 45MPH. By rule only, not electrically. Does any one grasp the signifigance of this? A few weeks ago they conducted acceleration testing of the trash motors on the Rockaway flats, and lo and behold.......they can hit 60MPH! Of course this is unfettered by the dead weight of the flat cars they typicaly haul, however those evil folks at Transit can't emasculate these cars! Otherwise they'd never be able to pull any weight up a hill. Ha, take that you B#$%@!&*!
Oh, by the way. The R127/134 motors also have one other factor making them the true thoroughbreds of the system. They stop on a dime. Dispite being much lighter (no A/C or Door Motors,Etc.) They still have a full 80PSI of brake cylinder pressure! Gee, how did those criminals ever forget to modify those cars so the brakes are long too?
Ah, yes. I look foward to working the garbage train.
Yes you can "clean up" when you work the garbage train, modify it and put in a 5 hour late clear. By the way Scivoni and Bonamo loves stainless steel so I will get my greedy fingers on the R-32s with their railfan windows. HAHAHA
The point was to illustrate how management has endangered everyone who rides and operates trains in the subway by tinkering with things which were fine for fifty years. For no better reason than I can find other than saving money. A mantra on the 13th floor.
So if all you can think about is your late clear, then by all means, make sure I'm the road behind you so I too can enjoy taking the TA's O.T.
Speaking of safety, the number one pyzon here at Schivoni and Bonamos will be recieving some R-40/42s courtesy of missing inshot valves thanks to the NYCTA (Name Your Crime Training Academy) removing them as Layton Gibson was layed to rest. Where are you F.R.A.?
Speaking of R-127s, how can they be hauling garbage when thew should be hauled AS garbage?
Inshot valves? Oh, subway cars don't need those. They only cost money to maintain, and cause the brake shoes to wear out faster. Costing more money. Our Motormen get 5 1/2 months of training, they can stop with less brake! And now with more ridership, the cars will be heavier, so when the dynamic isn't enough so what? That 300 or so amps will handle it. It's not worth risking the flat wheels to have sufficient brakes, when we have slowed everything down to a crawl to hide the fact from the unsuspecting public that there's nothing wrong with the basic design of the signals, it's just we're too cheap to keep our brakes up to snuff.
Of course you can prove that inshot the blanking of the inshot valve has resulted in any accident. By all means, post the data. Inshot was removed because it was redundant, replicating the function of the snow brake. Me thinks you are barking up the wrong tree. Full service braking on cars without inshot is the same as pre-removal specifications, 3.2 MPH/Sec. Of course, if you have contradictory data, I'd love to see it.
If the F.R.A. mandates that their equipment must not be modified, then why have I only scrapped one NJ Transit train, while since 1990 I have been receiving cars every week from NYCTA? With inshot valves running with composition shoes the 3.0 MPH deceleration was consistant, whether fanning brakes or with dead motors. Where do you get 3.2? R-44 trains are like the energizer bunny. they keep going and going and going out of the stations (GOLD TRIANGLE MODS) Why would you fix something that isn't brokken anyway? How would you feel if I went under your automobile and changed your master cylinder (in likeness to your J-relay)? Not to say that your judgement should be off to the point that you would smash into another train but an emergency brake should be just that. WHERE IS IT???? Maybe that extra 9 PSI you guys claim they put out is minimal but should Mr Gibson be dead because of it? Screw the passengers who pull the cords because I'd rather see a trainload of injuries than one death.
You are absolutely right! No matter how you tweak load weigh, it only affects stopping distances if the train was initialy put into braking from emergency FIRST, and not by service and then emergency. Which by the way with out an inshot valve to add extra brake pressure to help the dynamic when the trains fully loaded the train will always take exta distance to stop. Around 300 amps @ 50PSI on the straight air guage is all you get, EVER! all you gotta do is check the meter and the guages at a few stops during you trip and see for yourself.
If Steve modifys all his cars at Jamaica yard without that extra braking effort, Ill soon be a rich man; I can get rid of stainless steel at $5.00 lb.
Look, this ping-pong bullshit is starting to wear a little thin so let's clear up a few points.
First, "Steve" does not modify his cars at Jamaica Yard. I follow System Upgrade Bulletins (SUBs) issued by our engineering department and signed off by someone with a PE License. When a car is modified in this way, it is thoroughly function tested before release to service.
Second, you have still not provided one iota of proof that the modifications to any equipment has in any way negatively impacted on the performance of it. I, on the other hand, have proof in the way of braking charts that show just the opposite.
Third, Why is it that with the exception of the Williamsburg Bridge incident, has the NTSB not cited equipment modification as a cause. The fact is that human error (or human failure) has played the major role in every single public transit incident since before the Titanic.
The fact is that the 'Screeching Brake' problem became a problem because lazy train operators and conductors took trains out of service for unusual noise much like they do now for nickle spots when years ago, cars with 3" flats completed the trip.
You asked if I would let you get under my car and replace the aster cylinder and the simple answer is no! But if the engineers at GM told you that your car was being recalled because the master cylinder might ---------, would you dispute them.
You do a dis-service to the NYCT, the public and yourself when you post wild, unsubstantiated allegations which are untrue and have no basis in fact. I say again, if you have proof of what you say, post it along with the source. If not, it's time to grow up or shut up.
I say again, you provide the track, I'll provide the unmodified cars. Then we can compare some'32 or other cars. Or better yet, let's stop B.S. ing come out on my train, and I will be glad to demonstrate the effects I was decribing. Wild unsubstantiated fact? I live it every day!
See no mtter how many reports the TA doctors, the facts are if you do the test in other than real world conditions you get bad resuls. Run any contract car to speed and hit a fixed trip. Yes you are going to get short stopping. But stop under actual day to day coditions as I described earlier, and I would be happy to demonstrate this if you would like to get out of that office.
Steve you are way too experienced and knowledgeble to not at least come out and see what I'm saying. Please come and see for yourself, and then you too will see why I feel this way.
One job I had 10 years ago was @ Sumi-rail. We G.O.H. the R40 cars. We did new car acceptance testing. Any way we could figure out to put those cars to the limit, any crazy idea we came up with we did. EVEN THEN under certain conditions, the brakes stopped a wee bit long. So although I have but a few manuals, I have my memories as I know the truth.
So don't obviscate or try and deny what you probably suspect is true. Come out of the office with me and try and remember what it was like to be an RCI and I will demonstrate in many ways the differences between modified and un-modified air brakes.
Into the flame war....
First, to 'Schivoni': You are treading a thin line. Making statements while deliberately misrepresenting your identity
is an act of fraud.
To Erik: As someone who has been around railways for almost 15
years, you should have picked up by now a very important principle.
By your statements concerning the order in effect to limit speed
of the garbage motors, it appears you haven't. The safety of
the railway depends on you, the motorman, and indeed all of the
personnel of the railway, to comply with rules, bulletins and
properly delivered train orders. You have stated that you will
simply ignore this 45 MPH rule. One can't just ignore a rule because
it is inconvenient, annoying, or contrary to one's philosophy of
operations. That's as basic as it gets. As operating personel,
that understanding should be as primal to you as the instinct to
move your brake handle to the right when you see danger.
I'll grant you that the management infrastructure of the TA is
pretty bad. It's been worse, but it's still pretty bad. It
has been my observation over the years that in RTO, the m/m
and c/r are treated poorly. They operate in a punitive and
retaliatory environment. That's still not an excuse to knowingly
violate the rules.
As far as the R127/134 performance, I'll bet they fly. Don't
be too smug about the field shunt issue. They could very easily
be removed without affecting their use as tugs. The field shunting
only increases torque above about 35 MPH.
I don't understand what you said about the green automatic signal.
You looked out your cab window and saw a green signal, but you were
already in the block controlled by that signal?? How is that possible, unless the signal was behind you? The IJ isn't that far
in advance of the signal head that you can actually see the signal
change red from the cab window.
Now, on to braking and signal spacing. We've been through this firestorm before on Subtalk. As an engineer, I don't like to make statements without empirical data to back it up. I don't have the
most recent TA stopping distance test reports that were done in 1996
after the WB incident. Braking performance is a very complex field
and there isn't a single number that you can magically apply to a car
to completely summarize it and use for comparison in a meaningful way.
For example, the "classic" SMEE car of your choice (e.g R10) had a
spec emergency braking rate of 3.0 MPHPS. You surely know that cast-iron brake shoes have a friction vs speed characteristic that
exhibits sharply higher friction at lower speeds. Obviously, since
the SMEE braking system doesn't have rate of deceleration sensors
or any other closed-loop control, the emergency brake rate is going
to be a function of speed. You dump the train at say 45 MPH and
you get a certain amount of BCP. If that pressure at that load
and grade condition gets you say 3.0 MPHPS at 45 MPH, it will be
higher, maybe 4.0, maybe 5.0, at say 10 MPH. I just don't know the
actual numbers. The limit of deceleration is the adhesion coeff,
i.e. the limit of static friction at the point of contact between
wheel and rail. If the braking effort produced at the wheels attempts
to exceed the adhesion limit, the contact goes from rolling to
slipping and the braking rate actually goes down. Old news. You
know that except on nice dry rail, an emergency application on an
R10 would probably lead to some flats.
So, my point is, citing a brake rate of 3.2 MPHPS, as Steve did, is
a little misleading. The real issue is actual stopping distance
vs initial speed, both in full service and emergency. With comp
shoes, the friction-speed curve is more linear. If we compare car
A with iron shoes and car B with cobra shoes and say that the emerg
brake rates are equal at a value of X MPHPS at speed Y MPH, the actual
stopping distance mathematically must be longer for car B.
Now, I'm going to provide some first-person facts that are
admittedly a little dated. When I was in Car Equipment in 1991,
I was in the office of one of the managing engineers. One of
his projects was the deployment of the then-new J14 relay valve.
He proudly showed me a chart of braking rate vs speed at a variety
of SAP pressures. I believe it was for the 26/28/29/33 fleet.
It compared the performance of the new valve against the older
(J-16C?) valve. I said "oh yeah, that's much better, look at that
curve". But I didn't realize I was pointing at the old valve.
He said "no no no, that's the old valve, THIS is the new valve".
Well, I was incredulous. "But, this has gotta reduce braking
capacity by 10-20%". His answer: "Upper management wants to improve
passenger (they weren't customers yet) comfort, reduce injuries due
to heavy emergency brake applications, and reduce flats"
What can I tell ya? That's what I saw and heard. That's true. Doesn't mean what he said was accurate, etc. But the poorer braking
performance of the GOH'd fleet was something I verified anecdotally
by speaking with many motormen and observing their operation. Again,
anecdotes and subjective analysis are no substitute for properly
collected experimental data. It could be that the feeling of weaker
brake is the result of the higher top-end speeds of the GOH cars,
reducing the feeling of control over the equipment. Could be, though
I doubt it.
Now, that was a long time ago. After the WB accident, the TA did
extensive brake testing. They did modify the brakes at this point
to increase the nominal emergency brake rate, as well as reduce the
top speed by modifying the field shunt logic. [ An aside, they did
not, as Erik suggests, "remove the field shunt coils". ] I don't
have the test results, so I can't draw an objective conclusion
about the effect this has had on braking distances.
About the inshot valve: Had it been my call, I wouldn't have
removed them. But I don't think the effects of removal are as
severe as has been suggested. First of all, the role of the
inshot valve to provide additional brake cylinder pressure, up
to 35 psi, while dynamic braking is effective, is a historical
one. That's the way inshots functioned on true SMEE brake packages.
Outside of museum cars and maybe some work motors, nothing in the
system actually has this system anymore. We say "SMEE", but the
actual brake package is WABCO RT-1 or the NYAB equiv. Under this
system, the inshot valve does not have a supplemental pressure
function, it only provides 5 psi of spotting pressure to hold
the shoes lightly to the wheels. So, conclusion #1, removal of
the inshot valve from current passenger equipment could not have
caused a reduction in braking effort above 50 psi SAP pressure.
The inshot valve does have a role, however, of making sure the
pneumatic friction brakes are "ready" when the dynamics fade away.
Also, with iron shoes, inshot pressure served a pre-heat function,
but that, again, is historical. What happens in those few seconds
when the dynamic braking circuit reaches its last notch? The
Lock-Out Magnet valve de-energizes and allows the called straight air
pressure to be applied to the cylinder. Erik says '2-3 seconds to
charge 60+ feet of piping". That time estimate is very high.
Here's an experiment you can perform at home, kiddies. Take your
favorite redbird. Charge it up. Release the brakes. If you are
on a incline, apply a hand brake so it doesn't roll (safety first!)
Attach a rope to the emergency brake valve and take the other
end with you to the roadbed. Pull the cord and watch the
brake shoes. Do you really think it takes 2-3 seconds for the
brakes to apply?
I know some ways to dramatically improve the emergency braking
of the present fleet and retain passenger comfort. It would
cost a lot of money and would probably get f-d up. Not my call.
Disclaimer: I am not affiliated with MTA NYCT. These opinions
are my own, solely.
First of all Eric did not state he would ignor the bulletin on the 45 mph speed limit; that bulletin says NOT to exceed it. Work trains should not exceed 25 on straight track and 15 on curves. Have you ever seen a work train do more than 10 on overtime in the morning? If you do please contact the Transport Workers Union at 212-873-6000 and let one us handle that crew. Second Eric is a conductor so you should be praising him for ensuring your safety that he noticed on his 3-car observation that the signal was green. Last but not least those R-127s were purchased years ago. I track tested them as a T/O on the Sea Beach at 50 MPH w/o flatcars when they were new. This bulletin restricting their speed came out two weeks ago so so one deliberately violates bulletins.
I'm sorry..I thought Erik Dina was a motorman, not a conductor.
I misunderstood his original posting about the R127 cars. You
are correct that a restricting order on this equipment to 45
is redundant since there are lower speed restrictions already
applicable to work equipment. Have I ever seen work equipment
exceed 25 MPH? Umm, I'd have to say yes, frequently.
TA brass is quick to crucify the crew when something goes wrong.
It doesn't really make sense, since the TA is just as responsible,
but it makes people feel better. "Oh, it was just this one bad
apple. We've fixed that problem" Much easier than "oops, looks
like we have a few hundred spots in the system where this same
problem could happen tomorrow"
Were there documented cases of false clears at Steinway street?
I dunno. Maybe someone who is in possession of the facts,
not rumors, can establish this. But what exactly did Erik witness?
Last monday I was at Elmhurst Avenue on D1 (Manhattan bound) on the IND in Queens. My R
train had stopped and as I looked out the window I saw a very disturbing sight. Automatic signal
1440 was still clear even though my train was occupying that block! Of course I called Command
Center to notify them. They took the matter very seriously, thank god, and the signal maintainers
and Motor Instructors all responded quite quickly.
This shows very clearly that the rear end collision at Steinway Street on D2 last year WAS
probably caused by a faulty signal as Motorman Sales claied. But since with the TA, the crew is
ALWAYS at fault, to them he had to be lying. Dispite the TA's own testing that showed that
particular signal to have indicated green several times after trains had passed, Mr. Sales is still
He said the train was stopped, not that he was doing his 3
car length observation. I'm sure he'll clarify this. But even
if this was a bona fide false clear, that isolated incident doesn't
prove or disprove that the signal involved in the Steinway St.
accident malfunctioned. I'm not saying it did or it didn't.
That would be speculation on my part. I'm just pointing out an
error in logic here.
You COULD, as Eric seems to be doing, stretch that logic to:
If it occurs on signal x it could also have occured on signaly.
-Hank
One of the first rules of 'Problem Solving' is never assume because yesterday X occurred because of Y, then if X happens again, it again must be Y as the cause. That is time wasting and counter-productive. If, in fact, the incident Erik reported was true, that proves ONLY that the one signal malfunctioned. It does not prove that any other signal malfunctioned.
I have no reason to dispute Erik's report of signal trouble because he has been quite helpful in giving me significant information privately. However, I found no official document to substantiate the info. he gave. Likely, there was some confusion as to the date and I hope that Erik will clarify it for me. But back to your point, I agree that Erik is stretching logic.
If It could happen once, then it can happen again. I was told by a staff rep. from the union that in Mr. Sales defence that after the incedent the signal @ Steinway St. did malfunction several times more. As witnessed by signal maintainers stationed there to monitor that signal.
Absoulutely Amazing - a scrap dealer who "knows" technical stuff about the cars he scraps. ONE in a MILLION!!! Every other scrap dealer knows
the scrap price of the material he salavages.
Of course, this just may be damage.inc in another guise.
The following comment by the man who really knows what he writes says it all.
Any time you can arrange a test I can provide un modified cars. I'm sure you will agree that the R46 cars weigh about the same now as before. Power is less, answer then, why less B.C. press? I can't think of a valid reason, and the people I 've asked don't know either. See, inshot isn't the only reason why the brakes suck nowadays, just one of several mods, that alone don't amount to much. But when combined over the last ten or so years give us the dangerous conditions we have today.
Let's say Layton Gibson was'nt paying attention, as he passes that yellow, and then he sees the RED, thinking "oh s#$&%!" So he applies a full servie brake, never mind that from 50PSI to 80 on the S.A.P. that there's no difference in brake effort. He realizes that he isn't going to stop in time. He dumps, or he trips on the signal, either way it's not important. See with out the inshot holding the shoes ready against the wheels what happens is this=
The train is relying completely on dynamic to stop, and as B.P. is vented and the E.C. opens, all dynamic is lost.
Then the L.O.M. opens and allows that pityful ammount of air to charge 60+ feet of piping and then 4 brake cylinders. The time for this and then for those COLD brake shoes to become effective is about 2 or 3 seconds. At 40 MPH thats a couple of hundred feet. 380 tons of steel is a lot of kinetic energy to dissipate, and it's much better spent on wheels than on the anti-climbers. Thats why stopping distances were increased, thats why WABCO designed the valve and thats why they RECOMENDED IT NOT BE REMOVED, thats why Layton Gibson is dead. All because the TA was to cheap and didn't wan't to hear any more squealing brake complaints.
Could you explain what this "inshot" is?
Railcars that use dynamic brake to stop offer tremendous advantage in component wear. However, dynamic brake created a problem. When the dynamic brake faded, the air brake would apply and it was thought that the cold steel brake shoes were not immediately effective until they warmed to operating temp. In order to overcome this, an inshot valve was used. During dynamic braking, while the lockout magnet kept air from the brake cylinder, the inshot valve kept 3-5 PSI on the cylinder to 'warm' the brake shoes. This improved the stopping performance of the trains. This was 1940s and 50s technology.
Now, fast foward to the 80s. The cobra brake shoe becomes the industry standard. It has two advantages over the old steel shoe. First, no steel dust. Second and more importantly, the coefficient of friction of a composition shoe is higher than steel and is not temperature dependent. This is significant for 2 reasons:
First: Brake cylinder pressures can be lowered somewhat for the same brake effort. Significant but not pertaining to this discussion.
Second: The inshot valve was no longer required because it was not necessary to pre-heat the brake shoes before stopping..
When the dynamic is active and there is no pressure to the brake cylinders, inshot's most important feature was to hold the brake shoes "at the ready" so as dynamic faded at 3MPH or more critical should there be a loss of dynamic at speed then the brake shoes would become immeadiately effective. Rather than waiting 2 or 3 seconds for 60 or so feet of piping to charge and then waiting for the brakes to grab..... see several hundred tons moving the time of two seconds at even just 40MPH travels a couple hundred feet. The differences of that space can be the difference of whether or not you hit the train in front of you.
The signals are spaced on a formula of a train stopping in predetermined distance. If you change the balance of the equation, by toying with the brakes then you have created a dangerous condition. To correct for this the TA lowered speeds by removing the feild shunt coils from the motor circuit. And the added benefit for them was reduced power consumption, and now we all suffer.
If I understand this, the only thing this valve will do, in combination with 'cobra' brake shoes, is apply the friction brakes IF the dynamic fails?
And my next question:
Isn't the brake pipe ALWAYS charges, and the air brake works by REMOVING air from the system, allowing the springs to force the shoes against the wheel? Or am I confused with something else?
-Hank
If I understand this, the only thing this valve will do, in combination with 'cobra' brake shoes, is apply the friction brakes IF the dynamic fails? How does this affect an emergency braking situation where you are REMOVING all the air from the system? Isn't the brake pipe ALWAYS charged, and the air brake works by REMOVING air from the system, allowing the springs to force the shoes against the wheel? Or am I confused with something else?
-Hank
The only thing this valve will do is this:
Under dynamic braking, the dynamic current activates a device called the 'LOCKOUT' magnet. This valve locks out brake cylinder air so we do not get a condition known as "AIR OVER DYNAMIC", under normal braking conditions. The "INSHOT" valve, regardless of brake shoe type, will allow approximately 5 PSI to enter the brake cylinder to keep the shoe 'warm' and against the wheel. In theory, this was so when dynamic brake faded, the air brake would be ready to do it's thing without a lag.
The reference to Cobra Brake Shoes was only meant to illustrate one point. The Cobra Shoe has more linear braking characteristics regardless of temp. or wheel speed (than its' predecessor, the steel shoe). As to whether the 'INSHOT' valve should be used or not, has advantages or not, I firmly believe that (because of the other changes in the brake systems over the years) the removal of the 'inshot' valve has had absolutely no impact on performance or safety on any NYCT revenue rail car.
Eventhough I have never operated one, my daily observations dispute this. 36 St. yard is assigned EP06 to EP10. They are visible from the south end of the Ninth Ave. station of the West End Line. 4 are needed with 1 spare. I can assure you that a week doesn't go by when I see a pair of revenue collection yellow R21/22 cars pinch-hitting for the R127's. Sometimes, a pair on both trains!
I cannot vouch for their maintence reliability, however I do know that as G.E. cars, and because of the nature of the duty they see, it wouldn't be surprising if a lot of the time those cars are dead motors. When the overload trips on the controller there's a counter, kinda like the one on your VCR. 5 is the magic number, after that better sound taps.
Last monday I was at Elmhurst Avenue on D1 (Manhattan bound) on the IND in Queens. My R train had stopped and as I looked out the window I saw a very disturbing sight. Automatic signal 1440 was still clear even though my train was occupying that block! Of course I called Command Center to notify them. They took the matter very seriously, thank god, and the signal maintainers and Motor Instructors all responded quite quickly.
This shows very clearly that the rear end collision at Steinway Street on D2 last year WAS probably caused by a faulty signal as Motorman Sales claied. But since with the TA, the crew is ALWAYS at fault, to them he had to be lying. Dispite the TA's own testing that showed that particular signal to have indicated green several times after trains had passed, Mr. Sales is still restricted to platfor duty.
I think it's painfuly obvious to any one who takes the time to see, that Management is desperately trying to cover something up. Possibly to avoid lawsuits.
They are lucky I didn't get any more than the two R-46s that smashed into the wall at 179 Street. Do you know what stainless steel sells for today on NASDAK?
I don't understand your posting? Are you saying that you bought 1054 and 941 for scrap?
I know the TA switched number plates on me but 2 cars out of 1000+ is no loss because I sold some back to the T.A. for a profit, only to buy them back at the original price.
Me thinks you are sniffing too many of your own fumes tonight. There were 754 R-46 cars - 2 lost at 179th St (sold to MK) and the other 752 are in my custody for safe keeping. No numbers were switched on you the #941 & 1054 you got are Lionel numbers.
Perhaps you should consider picking out of Jamaica Yard cause you definately lost your P-wire. I was refering to the R-9s your beloved employer squandered money on twice. Would you sell your car, buy it at book value, then trade it in. If so then you are a typical company man on the 13 floor of the TAs Hall of Shame who like most of the Nat Fords and Joe Hoffmans, waste money on traction gel, only to have more flats. By the way check out the TT reports in the Rockaways last week when we had the ice storms. There were two alcohol trains in the Rockaways with numerous TSSs. Did you drink it before those trains left the yard? Why was service turned at JFK all night with TWO Deicers at work? Shame on You! I hope your MDBFs drop to the level of "Mr. Beane"s IQ
Yep, Now I know that schivoni & bonamo is really damage.inc in the guise of a supposed scrap dealer. The best thing we can all do is avoid getting into a post discussion with this fool. NOTHING we can say or do will get this so-and-so to agree with anyone with a rational point of view.
Dan, I think you are correct....On with a rational discussion
[Yep, Now I know that schivoni & bonamo is really damage.inc in the guise of a supposed scrap dealer. The best thing we can all do is avoid getting into a post discussion with this fool.]
He probably got the name from a well-known scrap metal company in Connecticut, Schiavone and Sons. Note that he didn't quite get the spelling right ...
And "bonamo" made me instantly think of "Bon Ami" cleanser. Only the slogan for that product is "Hasn't scratched yet," while "schivoni & bonamo" (curiously without capital letters, like "damage, inc.") has definitely tried to (verbally) scratch all the railfans here.
Besides that, didn't Naporano get most of the R1-R9 series?
Mr. Schiavone prefers to do his railfanning from a scrapped perspective. Steve, you insomniac! How long have you been lurking out there.
The thing is that 1054 and 941 were not scrapped, at least not in the traditional sense. They were sold to MK for parts (especially stainless steel patches). In 1992, 1/3 of car 941 was sent to Buffalo, NY where the new R-46 flooring was tested for fire resistance. Specs called for it to withstand flame at 1,550 Degrees F. for 20 minutes. It went 35 minutes and the interior floor temp reached a bit over 150 degrees F.
If you have all 752 R-46 cars in your custody, then the animal I rode on the A last month must have been an R-44 or R-68. There was no Builders Plate (damn railfans). Hard to tell without a roster since the renumbering and dumbing down of the fleet's individual characteristics. In the old days the R-44s had the same numbers as the R-1s and the R-46s picked up from there.
It was an R-44, Gerry. They're only found on the (and the Rockaway (wish I had an icon for the blue H... the train of my "yout," as grandpa would have said.
A while back we had a thread here on how to tell and R-44 from an R-46; as I recall one of the easier ones to spot is that the R-44 has a very narrow motorman's cab door, while the R-46's is wider.
Another way, other than the car numbers, is to look where the blue band used to be along the side of the car. On R-44s, it has been painted silver; on R-46s, the area is bare, unpainted stainless steel.
If it was the A you rode on, it was no R-68, it was an R-44.
The roster unit numbers for R44 are 5202 - 5479.
The roster unit numbers for R46 are 5482 - 6208 all numbers
and 6210 - 6258 even numbers only.
Wayne
There's another way to tell the difference: the R-44s and R-46s have electronic message signs on their sides which show the route letter, the routing, and destination. On an A train, such a sign would show a large A at the extreme left (from the outside), with an alternating "8th Ave. Express/Lefferts Blvd. or Far Rockaway or 207 St. Manhattan". When such a train enters a different borough, the routing changes also. An F train, for example, will say, "Queens Exp." while running in Queens, then change over to "6th Ave.-Culver Local" in Manhattan and Brooklyn.
The R-68s have roller curtains with a route letter at one side and adjacent upper and lower destination signs.
The R-44s and R-46s have the same messages (1,042) of them down-loaded into the Sign Control Unit memories. They are interchangable and an R-46 can display A, C or H signs and the R-44 can display E,F, G and R signs. In fact, both can display any of the lettered routes.
Does that include the Eastern Division routes? Since neither the R-44 or the R-46 can run on those lines without sideswiping each other, did they even bother programing in the J/L/M/Z destination assignments?
Does it do this automatically, or does someone have to punch buttons?
-Hank
The conductor must change the message code manually. Most messages were written with 3-4 lines to makr this unnecessary. For example the F train might say:
Large Box would say 'F'
(Line 1) to 179th St.
(line 2) Manhattan Local
(Line 3) Queens Express
This would be covered under one message code and should suffice for a complete northbound trip.
You can't smash into a wall at 179th Street station since there is no wall. The upper and lower level tail tracks (4 on each level) end at 189th Street. It's been that way since 1950. Get the facts right!!!
Yeah and he should also learn to spell NASDAQ without the 'K'
"I think it's painfuly obvious to any one who takes the time to see, that Management is desperately trying to cover something up. Possibly to avoid lawsuits."
I don't know about the rest of your message, except that others here have expressed the same opinion that NYCTA has a bias towards finding human error over mechanical failure. But blaming the crew doesn't get the TA out of a lawsuit: an employer is legally responsible for the negligence of his or her employees in the course of their employment even if the employer didn't directly do anything wrong. So, going after employees through the disciplinary procedure actually makes it easier for someone who is suing to prove their case ("See, even the TA agrees that their employee screwed up!").
Except through the eyes of lawyers (who as a group have very few principles) and through the eyes of hourly employees (who seem bent on discrediting management), your statement:
"I think it's painfuly obvious to any one who takes the time to see, that Management is desperately trying to cover something up. Possibly to avoid lawsuits."
has no validity what-so-ever. What is management trying to cover up? Where is your proof that anything has been covered up? All you have is a disgruntled employee who, without first hand information, stated that the signal might have malfunctioned. Would the statement "Might have malfunctioned" hold any value in any court in the land? As far as I know, the only person posting on this site who saw that particular signal on that particular morning immediately after that incident, was me. When I saw it, it was red. Could it have been green or yellow when that train went through it? If you can demonstrate that it had a mechanical defect I'll agree. If it had a history of malfunctioning, I'll concede the possibility. BUT until either a defect can be demonstrated or history of problems can be shown, there is no evidence to support such a claim.
Finally, as you yourself said, what does the TA have to gain by blaming the employee? Whether it were the employee, mechanical failure or even vandalism, the TA would still be liable. In fact, on the issue of liability as I understand it, it would seem to me that a finding of mechanical failure would be more advantageous to the TA since the Signal Manufacturer and the failed component manufacturer would all share in the liability. So where does that leave your argument?
The point was that the fact that there is a history of problems with that signal should have given pause to them before assuming that the man was lying.
By the way, R46 pre over haul; same weight , same power (less now) 80PSI brake cylinder.
Post overhaul 68 PSI, why? Composition shoes then and now. so why fix something that wasn't broken? Please don't tell me that doesn't effect stopping distances?
See on the railroads this crap doesn't go on because there is oversight from the FRA. Do any thing to a locomotive (yes subway cars are locomotives) and you must get FRA approval.
Erik, I'm quite sure that you are sincere but perhaps mis-informed at least about the facts in my area.
Fact #1, R-46 gained weight during overhaul albiet a ton or less per car.
Fact #2, Power is the same as pre-overhaul, 460 HP per unit, even now but the gear ratios have been changed from the pre-overhaul.
Fact #3 Brake Cyl. Pressure may or may not be the same as pre-overhaul but I will check that out as I still have the original Mtce. manuals in my office. However, the Tread Brake Units were changed during overhaul from Wabco to NYAB. The pressure now is what is required to give the equivalent brake with the old WABCO equipment.
Now as for the imfamous signal, let's look at it logically. If there is a culture in the TA of "We must blame someone" then based on the Department of Subways organizational structure, your argument makes less sense. Department of Subways is divided in half with RTO, Car Equipment and Stations under the 'Service Delivery' umbrella while 'Maintenance of Way' includes 3rd rail/Power, Infrastructure, track and signal. If the signal had any sort verifyable history of similar failure, do you think that the Chief of Service Delivery would have accepted responsibility for the incident when the 'Chief of Maintenance of Way' should have been responsible. I think we both know that neither gentleman involved would assume responsibility for such an incident when the other was ultimately responsible. The fact is that had the signal been held suspect, the signal maintainer (or the signal supervisor) and not the train operator would have been held accountable
[The fact is that had the signal been held suspect, the signal maintainer (or the signal supervisor) and not the train operator would have been held accountable]
I just thought of a twist on the whole "responsibility" aspect. According to the original posting, the train operator in question has been reassigned to platform duty - less desirable, I'm sure, but he's probably still drawing his regular salary. In many private businesses, a worker who had committed (or been suspected of committing) an error of that magnitude wouldn't be assigned to a lowlier job, he'd be "re-engineered."
Of course management covers up. Far above you in the hierarchy, Steve, is a politician who doesn't want any unneccessary issues brought up during his or her term. Unless a problem has been identified as worthy of political/financial resources, they'd just as soon not have it brought up. Do bureaucrats lie? Not good ones, but they tell the truth and nothing but the truth, and not the whole truth.
Witness the various statements coming out (or the ones you hear privately which do not come out) about the long term viability of the Manhattan Bridge. If Giuliani/Pataki were coming into office, were aware of the issue ahead of time, and decided to use it to attract votes, you'd have a whole different "truth." How about the shinkage of the car fleet in the past decade. Did anyone announce it? I heard an MTA official say they wanted to run more trains, but there aren't enough cars, and they are not supposed to talk about it.
So it isn't paranoia to assume that if there is something modestly wrong, the MTA doesn't run out and publicize it. Virgil's head would be on a platter if he did. When word gets out anyway, the result is political/legal over-reaction. Ie. trains moving at three miles per hour.
I think Mr. Littlefield is the only one who quite got what I was trying to say. That is the TA culture of the lowest emplyee who can be blamed - will be. That was my point, and that after seeing a signal stay green with a train occupying the circuit, I can believe him.
Normally the signal goes red when the first car enters the block and the trip arm rises when the last car enters (previous block now unoccupied). Not knowing much about signal circuits, could the trip arm circuit become crossed to the relay for the wayside signal in a manner to hold the signal green until the whole train was in?
The subway is not under FRA juristiction.
But I believe the Staten Island Rapid Transit is, and all R-44s with cabs are considered locomotives under FRA rules. So what might an SIRT R44 have, under FRA rules, that NYC Transit R44s do not? For example, I think there is an FRA mandated period of inspection for all locomotives (60 days?) where NYC Transit may have a different period (90 days?). I also think the SIRT R44 has additional grabirons on the doors that NYCT R4s don't have.
--Mark
ooops ... meant to say R44s not R4s in the post above.
--Mark
HAD. The SIR is now exempt from FRA rules because it isn't permenantly connected to a US common carrier. Before GOH, the cars had FRA-Mandated grabirons at each door, (possibly) special glass*, headlight dimmers, speed recorders, and a few other things I currently lack the reference material to mention. They lacked (and still lack) trip cocks. After GOH, all that remained were the headlight dimmers, and a year or two later, new speed recorders were installed. During GOH, two 4-car sets of R46 operated on the line. I never bothered to record the numbers, unfortunately. (Oddly enough, they used the 'Train to the Plane' symbol on the destination sign.)
As for the inspection period, and self-propelled railcar (ie, having a propulsion system on-board) needs an FRA-mandated inspection every 91 (or 89) days. (I'm sure that it's NOT an even 90) There's also a required maintainence schedule. AFAIK, many government-operated systems have an exemption of sorts from the FRA rules because the equipment is supposed to be regularly inspected and maintained. So this would include both A and B cars, cab equipped or not. This is part of the reason NJT has switched from MU cars to loco-hauled trains, less required maintainence. I've never seen an FRA blue card (loco inspection) for a piece of SIR equipment.
As for my '*' next to 'glass', anyone who rode the SIR in the days before the GOH finally got underway will remember that all the windows, with the exception of the cab windows, were semi-opaque plexiglas, due to vandalism. When the R46 came temporarily in 1990, it was the first chance I ever had to look out a clear window and see what was on the line.
-Hank
HAD. The SIR is now exempt from FRA rules because it isn't permenantly connected to a US common carrier. Before GOH, the cars had FRA-Mandated grabirons at each door, (possibly) special glass*, headlight dimmers, speed recorders, and a few other things I currently lack the reference material to mention. They lacked (and still lack) trip cocks. After GOH, all that remained were the headlight dimmers, and a year or two later, new speed recorders were installed. During GOH, two 4-car sets of R46 operated on the line. I never bothered to record the numbers, unfortunately. (Oddly enough, they used the 'Train to the Plane' symbol on the destination sign.)
As for the inspection period, and self-propelled railcar (ie, having a propulsion system on-board) needs an FRA-mandated inspection every 91 (or 89) days. (I'm sure that it's NOT an even 90) There's also a required maintainence schedule. AFAIK, many government-operated systems have an exemption of sorts from the FRA rules because the equipment is supposed to be regularly inspected and maintained. So this would include both A and B cars, cab equipped or not. This is part of the reason NJT has switched from MU cars to loco-hauled trains, less required maintainence. I've never seen an FRA blue card (loco inspection) for a piece of SIR equipment.
As for my '*' next to 'glass', anyone who rode the SIR in the days before the GOH finally got underway will remember that all the windows, with the exception of the cab windows, were semi-opaque plexiglas, due to vandalism. When the R46 came temporarily in 1990, it was the first chance I ever had to look out a clear window and see what was on the line .
-Hank
If you weren't so busy bashing lawyers, you bloody peabrain, you would notice that the quote (HINT FOR THE UTTERLY CLUELESS: IT WAS IN QUOTES!!!!!) was from someone else's message and I was DISAGREEING with it. If you didn't have it in your head that attorneys are always the bad guys, you would have seen that I was agreeing with you, or at least not disagreeing with you.
"Except through the eyes of lawyers (who as a group have very few principles)..."
Hey, what's your profession, jackass, so I can list every nasty half-baked sterotype of YOUR daily occupation!?!
You know, you are correct that I missed your quotation marks. However, I doubt that changes my perceptions about the vast majority of lawyers. That's a PR problem that didn't start with me nor will it end with me. As for this Pea-brained jackass, I'm a manager in the MTA. We've already heard the stereo-types,,,,,,,,,,,,,,take your shot.
This discussion raised a technical question. (Let's get back to transit!)
If you put a NYC Subway car in emergency (either by the trip, broken pipe or hose, pass emer valve or master controller/brake valve, do the dynamic brakes continue to function? The question of brake cylinder pressure may be less appropriate if the dynamics go to max in emergency. In normal braking they operate down to less than 10 mph anyway.
No, that's one of the "features" of SMEE. If the brakes are
in emergency (insufficient brake pipe pressure to keep the
Emergency Braking Contactor closed), all propulsion and dynamic
brake functions go dead. An emergency stop is air only, while
a full-service stop is dynamic + air. I'm not sure of the original
reasoning behind this...perhaps it was because WABCO wanted to make
sure the emergency brakes worked even if the lock out magnet failed?
Just a technical point but on Westinghouse, the Emergency Contactor is held 'UP' by Brake Pipe pressure. When the Brake Pipe goes to atmosphere, the EC drops out and the CB+ finger opens, taking the supply voltage from the controller. GE SCM uses a pressure switch. When BP reaches 90 PSI, the pressure sw. engages 2 micro-switches. Each one pulls in a relay, either ER1 or ER2. When BP goes to zero, the ER1 & ER2 open taking the supply voltage from the group Sw. box. One of the main reasons this is done is because dynamic braking fades at low speed and pure air braking is faster.
Either way, during emergency braking, the dynamics are not operative.
This has been the design of SMEE since the beginning. An
interesting historical/engineering question might be "why?"
WABCO must have had some reason for wanting to kill the dynamics
during emergency braking. Perhaps the concern was that the combined
tractive effort of friction and dynamic braking would exceed
the available adhesion and lead to skidding?
On the PCC car, in emergency the dynamics still function, as
do the track brakes and tread brakes. The PCC brake pedal
has an "oh shit" position...push it all the way to the floor
and it latches there, so you can run to the other end of the
car before you hit whatever it is you are going to hit :)
True, in fact the circuits which operate the contactors and pilot motor for dynamic braking are fed from a separate fuse or circuit breaker to insure that the dynamics continue to work even if the control fuse blows!
Tough profession John. But at least you are not having to defend journalists.
As long as we're on the subject of stereotypes, I do have to mention the law firm I work for is offering a classroom course called 'What to do while waiting for the Ambulance'
I laughed pretty hard, and then did a bit of checking to find out that this is a First Aid/CPR course for firm employees.
-Hank
I remember an article in the newspapers a couple of years back in the Post stating that signal lighting voltage be turned down to save money on light bulbs burning out. If the transit authority as a whole blamed "cowboy motormen" in the '80s for the derailments, remember the rulebook slowdowns that resulted. Did the derailments and switchbox fires go away as a result? Am I guilty because I followed orders so the TA can blame me? In school car I was told that trains will not run by themselves. Perhaps Steve can verify there was a bulletin issued back around 1990-91 by CED mandating that R-44 have ALL handbrakes and a cord pulled when laying them up because the trains would charge their own brakepipes and then release the straight air and roll into bumping blocks at terminals. You guys can blame inshot or the employees or management all you want but the F.R.A. forbids any tampering or modifying of brakes/signals/rails without their permission and those railroads caught on the 92 day inspection would be fined by the F.R.A. I say let them run this disaster area, because PATH, tripcocks and all does not have these problems.
Yes, there were incidents of pre-overhauled R-44s self-charging and releasing. This does indicate two critical points, though.
First: There was no management cover-up. A bulletin was posted warning all operating personnel of the potential problem. No person, to my knowledge, suffered any sanctions because of this condition.
Second: Although I have no knowledge that this condition was due to one, management took the position that maintenance shops could no longer 'engineer' solutions to maintenance problems and all modifications had to be approved by engineering and signed for by a licensed PE.
The fact is that the NYCT does not come under FRA rules. This does not mean that our procedures are less safe than class I railroads. Our Truck Shop has AAR certification, for example. Our inspection cycles have smaller windows than the FRA mandates (66 days as opposed to 92 days).
Finally, your point about making modifications to equipment under the FRA. I have personally been at joint meetings with PATH, which does fall under FRA rules, where they openly admitted to making changes to components of one manufacturer where the manufacturer strenuously objected to the changes being made without their engineering approval.
I think while some want to blame the people and the people want to blame the equipment, we need to step back and look at the 'BIG' picture. I ride the LIRR 3-4 days a week. They are no better than the NYCT and in some areas, there maintenance is quite deficient. They violate FRA rules on a daily basis, running cars without operating dynamic brake (and you can smell burning shoes on almost every train). This leads to thermal cracks in the wheels due to the high speed/high temp of the friction braking. However, the difference is that on the LIRR you run with one to two miles of seperation between trains at MAS. Hard to have a collision like that (but they do occasionally). Wanna try this on the NYCT. It can't be done. You can't compare the NYCT to Path or LIRR or NJT because it is unique unto itself and we must collectively come up with joint solutions to the problems.
All of this discussion of accident/cover-up/fault/etc. brings to mind the awful headender in Feb 96 on CSX between a MARC push-pull and AMTRAK F40 led Capitol Ltd. Eleven citizens paid the price including the three person crew of the MARC commuter train. The NTSB report RAR 9702 which is online is sobering reading. The baseline unanswerable question was did the engineer see the correct signal aspect or did ne misread/ignore it? But underlying this is the issue of a signal location removed during track modification which if still in service might have prevented the tragedy. At the time I assumed the signal removal was simply typical save a buck management behaviour. While I still believe the signal should have remained, it turns out the considerations for and against are far more complex.
Wouldn't it also be possible to blame a mechanical error on a human mistake? Ultimately, the system is designed, built, and maintained by humans. So a failing signal could be blamed on poor maintainece, wwhich in turn can be blamed on the poor guy who did his best to fix the thing....
-Hank
I would like to know about your story. You indicated you were looking at signal D1-440 and its was clear. Was the signal at the time yellow or green? Was a train in front of you and what was the location of the rear of the train in regards to how many red signals behind the leading train?
As you probably know, the signaling on the Queens Line dates back to 1935 and was designed with complete failsafeness in mind in accordance with the AAR and the signal industry standards. AC Line Controls are used in this territory for signal control and I'm sure that the original design would not give you a false clear signal. There are reasons why a false clear would occur including a swap in track circuit leads and a shorted insulated joint by steel dust. Also, any changes in the signal circuits involving the HS, D and T relays could cause a false clear. Maybe a shelf mounted relay without a coupler was changed and the wiring was installed incorrectly. This territory is in a unit case area with all circuits and equipment at trackside.
Please give more specifics and I will review the control lines in that territory for you.
Steady false clears are pretty easy to figure out, and are usually
caused by something stupid, for example, maybe the H relay had to
be replaced, and it was a Type K or a DN11 without a plug coupler,
and the maintainer swapped the front and back contact connections.
That's pretty obvious and usually doesn't get too far. The intermittent false clears are more insidious. I'd debate your
assertion that swapping the RB and RN leads would cause it or
a bridged IJ...because of polarity staggering of track circuits
both conditions should always drop the track relay. The most
frequent cause of false clears is failed wiring insulation within
the relay case that allows local AC energy of the correct phase
to cross into a track or line circuit.
Do you have the signal circuit drawings for this territory (QB
line?) I've been looking for that!
If the RB and RN track leads are swapped and the IJ shorted by steel dust or other foreign matter than the track relay will pick from the feed end of the adjacent track circuit. The IJ locations at Elmhurst Avenue station (in the vicinity of signal D1-1440) are on one rail only and lend for a false clear under the conditions I described. What I meant is the signal system would function normally with both the feed and relay end track leads swapped. When the IJ shorts with a train in track circuit, then the track relay will pickup under a train.
GRS type K and US & S DN11 relays are not used on the Queens Line. AC Line Controls are used and this territory has GRS relays. Type L and Model 2 relays are used.
I would like to know what your experience is in the signal industry. We don't appear to understand AC Line Controls!!!
CORRECTED COPY
If the RB and RN track leads are swapped and the IJ shorted by steel dust or other foreign matter than the track relay will pick
from the feed end of the adjacent track circuit. The IJ locations at Elmhurst Avenue station (in the vicinity of signal D1-1440)
are on one rail only and lend for a false clear under the conditions I described. What I meant is the signal system would function
normally with both the feed and relay end track leads swapped. When the IJ shorts with a train in track circuit, then the track
relay will pickup under a train.
GRS type K and US & S DN11 relays are not used on the Queens Line. AC Line Controls are used and this territory uses
GRS relays Type L and Model 2 relays.
I would like to know what your experience is in the signal industry? You don't appear to understand AC Line Controls or NYCTA signaling!!!
Ah, a boolean logic error. AND. Yes, if:
The polarity of the track relay leads is swapped
AND
The polarity of the track transformer leads is also swapped
AND
The IJ is bridged
THEN
A false clear of the track relay will occur
How it would happen that both ends of the track circuit get swapped
is beyond me. Anytime you change a vital track circuit component,
you are supposed to do a shunt test at both ends of the circuit, and
in a single-rail system, you should bridge the IJ at the track
relay side with the previous block clear and verify that it
drops the TR.
I understand AC line circuits just fine. My fault. For those sideliners, GRS Type K and USS Type DN11 are both DC relays.
GRS Model 2 and L (did they really install those big obsolete jars
in 1936?) are AC relays. You did mention that this was AC territory,
and you did mention that it was a GRS installation.
No battery whatsoever, eh? I guess not.
Whenever I've seen a loss of AC signal power, the lights went dark
too. I guess the City of New York didn't opt for backup DC signal
lighting voltage. And/or are these the signal heads that have the
little lighting transformers in them?
As I said, I haven't come across much typical circuit documentation
on the IND stuff. My interest in railway signaling is purely
historical/academic, btw.
Everything I told you regarding AC Line Controls is true. The IND and BMT did this all the time in the early days.
By the way, I'm a Senior Engineer and I write specifications for train control and signaling and I have worked on NYCTA for Union Switch & Signal in the mid 1980's. I placed into service the new signaling at Livonia Yard, designed signaling for the 13 tracks next to the car wash at Coney Yard, worked on 8 new tracks in Westchester Yard and redesigned the signaling for the Archer Avenue Extension including the tie-in's at Van Wyck Blvd, Parsons Blvd, Union Tpke and 71st-Continental Avenues.
I have always been very interested in the New York City subways. It's been a hobby that I've wanted to really develop. For some time, I have loosely followed plans for a Second Avenue Subway in Manhattan. Yesterday, I saw on New York's NY1 that there are plans to build a Second Avenue Subway that would extend into Brooklyn and Queeens. NY1 also showed a map of where the subway would run in Manhattan, Brooklyn, Queens and The Bronx. Apparently, a related story ran in one of the city's dailies; however, I have been unsuccessful in locating the paper. Where will the subway run in the Bronx, Queens and the Bronx. Do you guys have access to the proposed route or where could I obtain this information? What about stations? New York 1 mentioned that a group called Regional Plan Associates submitted the proposal. Do you have any information? I am VERY curious! Your help would be appreciated.
Sincerely,
Joe Pressley
Joe, Do a search by topic to pick up on previous threads on this subject.
I can tell Joe where the stations would have been in the 1968-72 plan (keep in mind that they would have been two to three blocks long): [on Water St.:] Whitehall Street, Wall Street (north end at Maiden Lane?], Chatham Square, Grand Street (at Chrystie St.), [on Second Ave.:] Houston Street, 14th Street, 20-23rd Streets, 31st-34th Streets, United Nations (45th-48th Streets?), Midtown East (probably at 57th Street), 72nd Street, 83rd-86th Streets, 96th Street, 106th Street, 120th Street (maybe up to 123rd St.?). In the Bronx there probably would have been stations at least at Mott Haven, Hunts Point Avenue, and 180th Street-Morris Park Avenue.
Did everyone see Michael Aronson's column in
today's Daily News Bring Ghost Stations Back to
Life?
[Did everyone see Michael Aronson's column in today's Daily News Bring Ghost Stations Back to Life?]
Interesting column, but there was a rather glaring error. It said that the City Hall station can be seen by staying on a 6 as it goes through the turnaround loop. Unless I missed something, that hasn't been permitted for at least the past few months. In addition, the column implied that the 91st Street IRT station has been all but forgotten. That's quite a stretch, as its existence is well known and in any event it can be seen from the 1/2/3/9 lines.
As I requested on the Post article from Sunday, could posters provide some kind of summary (not the text, because of potential copyright problems, but the basic idea) of what an article is about? I just tried to connect to the News, but was refused.
Thanks for the consideration.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Sorry about my original post not linking. Try it
now:click here
Another reason they were closed was no room to lengthen the platforms to 10 cars/
Couldn't they have lengthened Worth Street by going north rather than south? I've been along there numerous times; it doesn't seem THAT close to Canal Street, whose south end is almost right AT Canal i.e. it extends north from Canal. They would need gap fillers or a moving-platform arrangement there due to the 40-degree curve.
Wayne
Whilw they could have, Worth street was also only one block away from an entrance to the Lengthened Brooklyn Bridge Station which was renamed "Brooklyn Bridge/Worth Street".
Also- Gap fillers are not popular and they have been trying to avoid them . Such a reason is why Myrtle av (Flatbush Av) was closed- SOuth end of DeKalb had gap fillers- the station was lengthened-- to the North and switches put in at Myrtle.
> Such a reason is why Myrtle av (Flatbush Av) was closed- SOuth end
> of DeKalb had gap fillers- the station was lengthened-- to the North
> and switches put in at Myrtle.
I assume you're talking about the ghost station Myrtle Ave on the BMT Brighton Line. It has gap fillers? Where - the northbound platform is straight as an arrow. I thought the station was colsed when the DeKalb interlocking was redone in the '50s.
Since we're talking about this station, anyone remember the name of the "art" exhibit that was placed on the platform (it was "animated" and appeared to have characters moving as the train moved past it)?
--Mark
It's possible, but unlikely that the southern end of DeKalb ever had gap fillers. Keep in mind that the BMT standards and Triplex units did not have the same door arrangement the way the IRT Hi-Vs and Lo-Vs did.
And, yes, the Myrtle Ave. station was closed in conjunction with the rebuilding of DeKalb and its interlocking plant. The entire southbound platform was sacrificed in the process. On the northbound side, you can still see the white tiles on the curtain wall from a passing D train.
It's possible, but unlikely that the southern end of DeKalb ever had gap fillers. Keep in mind that the BMT standards and Triplex units did not have the same door arrangement the way the IRT Hi-Vs and Lo-Vs did.
And, yes, the Myrtle Ave. station was closed in conjunction with the rebuilding of DeKalb and its interlocking plant. The entire southbound platform was sacrificed in the process. On the northbound side, you can still see the white tiles on the curtain wall from a passing D train.
As I mentioned, it's 40+ years, but I wasn't talking about moving gap fillers at DeKalb but simple wooden planking running parallel to the curving platforms perhaps a foot below the platform level--so the door placement differences between Standards and Triplexes (or R-types, Compartments, the ex-SIRT 'E' types, or whatever else might come through on a BMT Southern Division route) wouldn't matter. Those tracks were slightly banked, too, weren't they?
Times Square on the Shuttle had similar planking.
With four decades of useless information cluttering my brain, it's possible that my memory is mistaken, but I don't think so. We'll have to find some 1950s or earlier BMTers to compare memories.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
If anyone would remember, it would be Mr. BMT himself, Ed Sachs. I rode through DeKalb for the first time on my very first subway ride in 1965, but can only remember going over the Manhattan Bridge and the shiny, brand new R-32s we were on (plus the "Do all minors dig Milky Way?" ad, plus the "57th St." signs illuminated in green). By that time, of course, that whole area had been rebuilt.
Since Steve asked ...
Definitely no moving platform type gap fillers at DeKalb. I recall the planks under the platform on the curve of the southbound Brighton line track (now the southbound tunnel track). They may have been on other tracks, also.
As for the variety of equipment regularly operated through DeKalb prior to rebuilding:
BMT Standards.
BMT Triplexes.
IND R1s (opeated regularly on the 4th Ave. Local in late 40s-early 50s).
Ex-SIRT cars (but usually in short trains which avoided the curved section of platform at DeKalb).
Also - re: Myrtle Ave.:
Platforms were straight, so no gap fillers would have been needed.
During DeKalb rebuild, when station was extended northward, a new entrance was built at the north end which had stairways to the street only about a block from Myrtle Ave. (this may no longer be open).
And, of course, the southbound Myrtle Ave. station platform no longer exists, was a casualty of the rebuilding from a crossover into a flying junction.
DeKalb is the station that had the fillers, and they were of the kind that exists at the Times Square Shuttle. If you go to the extreme South end of the station and look past the do not cross the track sign and look towards the platform you'll see where the platform still exists and the "fillers" but here again they are not of the SOuth Ferry, 14th street, Brooklyn Bridge type.
Although I'm trying to remember back forty plus years, I don't remember the old DeKalb Avenue station in downtown Brooklyn having moving gap fillers--there were flat wooden guards (2" x 6" or 2" x 8") several inches down from the platform surface so that if you slipped, your foot would only go down a short distance rather than all the way to the trackbed. The 42nd Street Shuttle had similar wooden guards at Times Square. If memory serves, they were painted yellow at both stations and I think there were incandescent light bulbs under the edge of the platforms. DeKalb had them on the south end of both platforms, as I recall.
The switches on the northbound side at Myrtle/Flatbush are still as they were before the rebuilding (except the sidings for the bypass and the Bridge local track from DeKalb after the ramps for the H-tracks are long enough for ten cars--used to be eight Standards or equivalent in D, R, or other types).
On the southbound side, there was a scissors crossover north of Myrtle (now replaced by the grade-separated crossing, with its redundant track from the South side of the Bridge to the Bridge track going into DeKalb) and then another scissors just north of DeKalb to separate the Brighton from Fourth Avenue.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
To Gary Wengeroff--
I'm not sure what you did, but the sustituted link to the News worked even though the original didn't. (And it's Tuesday afternoon--newspaper article tend to disappear after a day. Maybe the News is different.)
Thanks,
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
There was a stray "break" tag in the middle of the link - don't know how it got there. I saw it pop up in the URL box just above the SubTalk window (I'm using Netscape Navigater 3.0) All I did was put my cursor on the stray characters and delete 'em. The link worked just fine.
Wayne
The Daily News' website is organized very differently from the Times. Some articles are available years after they first go up at the news, others vanish...it's an excellent reference archive that's free, unlike the Times' archive.
-Hank
[The Daily News' website is organized very differently from the Times. Some articles are available years after they first go up at the news, others vanish...it's an excellent reference archive that's free, unlike the Times' archive]
In addition, the Daily News' website (and the Post's) usually works well. Contrast that to the Times, where there seem to be an inordinate number of "server errors."
The B,C change was the worst subway line change. What would happen if the A were to go to Bedford and the B go back to 168 and the C go to 207 Street. Or what might be better is all the line return back to what they were a year ago.
I think it had to do with car assignments by yard. Currently, both the B and D run R-68s (yuk), and by running the B to Bedford Park, Concourse Yard can concentrate solely on servicing R-68s. Over on the C, you have R-32s and some R-38s, with the rest of the R-38s on the A as well as the R-44s. 207th St., therefore has all of the R-44s to deal with, along with R-32s and R-38s.
Have you heard, Steve - R32s have been seen (and ridden on) on the "A" over the last month or two? I think this is a prelude to the spring 1999 service changes, when the Williamsburgh Bridge will be out of service. These R32s are part of the Pitkin/207th Street ("C") pool.
Wayne
I believe it. I actually rode an A train of 8 R-32s and 2 R-38s tacked on at one end last October. The only other A train of R-32s I ever saw prior to that was in 1968 or 1969 at 14th St. And it crawled past 23rd St., too.
Now, if they could bring a few slant R-40s over to the A...
Now THAT had to be the good old R32-GE and they are 3594-3595, 3880-3881, 3892-3893 and 3936-3937 PLUS whatever loose R38 was lying around. 3934-3935 are gone, they're parts cars for the other eight.
I would love to see a Slant R40 on the "A" but they've never been there since GOH - the way I remember them on the "A" was with the blue interiors/seats. One, 4380-4381 I had the pleasure of riding out to Rockaway on as a Fulton Express. What a rush!
Wayne
i remember a few years ago there was a few redbirds in revenue service on the C line....Does anyone know when they stopped using them, the numbers of the cars that was used, and why they were used on the C line?
These were the R-30 cars (painted the same color as the red cars on the IRT lines). They weren't IRT redbirds, if that's what you're thinking.
Somebody here mentioned an idea to transfer some IRT Redbirds to the B division (with modifications, of course) to fill in a car shortage when the 63rd Street connection opens. Instead, if there indeed is a car shortage, why doesn't the Transit Authority resurrect a few R-30's as an interim measure, and leave the remaining IRT redbirds in familier territory.
[Somebody here mentioned an idea to transfer some IRT Redbirds to the B division (with modifications, of course) to fill in a car shortage when the 63rd Street connection opens. Instead, if there indeed is a car shortage, why doesn't the Transit Authority resurrect a few R-30's as an interim measure, and leave the remaining IRT redbirds in familier territory.]
Whatever their virtues, the R-30's lack air conditioning, and it seems to be TA policy to run a fully airconditioned fleet (I guess they've more or less forgotten about those few unairconditioned Redbirds on the 7 ...) Besides, I'm not sure how many R-30's still remain - weren't most of them scrapped already?
Thats what i heard that all but a handful have been torched, kind of stupid they should have kept some for reserve fleet.
Are there enough R-30s still resurrectable to make it worthwhile? If not,and if the MTA is going to get rid of at least 700 or so A division Redbirds when the R-142s arrive, you might as well keep the others for rush hour B service on some of the less-heavily used lines than deal with a car shortage on the B division after 63rd St. is fully open.
I think there are probably only enough R30 left to cobble together a train or two at most. Forget about A/C; it would make them too heavy.
There is a technical reason for not retrofitting them with A/C.
I wouldn't mind seeing some in service, air-conditioned or not. Whatever R30 are left are probably pretty rusty by now, being carbon steel bodies.
Wayne
I think you can only put Redbirds on a self-contained line B line, since the platforms would have to be extended. And the L is out, since they want to go with the new signals.
The only use I can imagine is providing extra express service out in Brooklyn. For example, you could use Redbirds for the Brighton Local and have everyone change to an express at Prospect Park. Or you could have Redbirds run as a Culver local, with a change at Church for trains to Manhattan and through -- express service during rush hours on the middle track. The C would work also -- it could turn around post Hoyt-Schemerhorn.
But in all cases you'd need just as many trains to bring people to Manhattan, so it wouldn't save you anything unless you turn around the Manhtattan Trains early.
Thinking outside the box about Brooklyn transit 30 years from now: How about a system in which four car trains run OPTO into Downtown Brooklyn and turn around -- with service at least twice as frequent as today and expresses on every line. You'd change there for the longer through train to Manhattan. Two waits, but more expresses and shorter headways for both trains.
The IRT Redbirds could have extentions installed on them, rather than the platforms. This was don with the last of the IRT Low-Vs, I believe....I've seen pictures of them with a kind of angled sill along the beltline.
-Hank
They ran those Low-Vs on the 'Culver Shuttle' for a very short period of time...when the BMT was VERY short of equipment..relieved by *TADA* by the delivery of the R-30s.....
Wasn't it true that the R-30s, even after overhaul, had miserable MDBF rates? I heard that was one reason they were retired prematurely, in the opinion of some.
Latest press reports today Monday 18th Jan, state that test running on weekends with passengers will begin next weEk between Stratford (Eastern terminus) and North Greenwich Station. This will be a free service and is designed to "iron out the bugs" on this section.
Trains from the new Stratford Mmarket Depot will be used.
Still no date for complete opening of new section from Green Park
through to Stratford.
Regards
Rob :^)
London UK
Hello in London, Rob
Thanks for the latest Jubilee Line Extension news. Have other posters on this board downloaded the London Transit video ride on the Jubilee Extension?
I found it quite a lot of fun, to sit in the motorman's cab and go through the underground and surface tracks, with an overview of each station on the line. It makes me want to hop a plane and travel to London to ride the line in real life when I get the opportunity.
It did take about 20 minutes to download the video on my Sony P.C. But it's worth the wait. You can find it by using nycsubway.org's connection to the London Underground system, then going to the Jubilee Extension page.
Reggie
ytc6666@aol.com
Press reports say that line will be open FREE to passengers between Stratford and North Greenwich stations from next M O N T H and not next week as posted on Monday.
Remember on target opening date is to coincide with year 2000 exhibition at the "Millenium Dome" currently near completion at Greenwich......... 11 months and counting!!
Regards
Rob ;^)
I've moved back to Philly after a nice 1 1/2 years in Hoboken, and
am looking to explore the subways down here now. Does anyone have
any track maps/abandoned station/general info on the Broad Street or
El lines? Thanks!
-Lee
I have some but they've been loaned out to subway-buff temporarily for a new page in this posting. When they come back, we can chat about this.
The only abandoned station I know of in Philadelphia is on the PATCO line, just before the trains go on the bridge to Camden, NJ. I don't remember the name of the station. All I remember was seeing something in a decor similar to the Broad St. stations.
As for the el, please photograph the western elevated portion right and left, as it may soon be torn down in stages while new structure replaces the quaint stationhouses and latticed metal. Also take pictures of the inside of the old Almond Joy cars if you can even get on one. They're on their way out and the only one that'll be saved is already at the Pennsylvania Trolley Museum in Washington/Arden, southwest of Pittsburgh.
On the Broad St. line, see if you can see the nostalgia train. It's kept at Fern Rock, although I've heard the trains don't take the full loop around the yard anymore. The beautiful old cars may be visible from the station.
There is another phantom station that was going to be used on the Northeast Extension of the Broad Street line.It was sitting under the parking garage of the old SEARS complex.It may have been destroyed when they imploded Sears to make way for the new shopping center.I know this was not a station but there is an unusd subway tunnel probably about a block long at 10th& Arch Street,it never being used because it was meant for a short cut subway connection between the subway and the el.Instead they built the Ridge Avenue spur as the short cut.
The phantom station on PATCO is Franklin Square, the last (or first, depending on your direction of travel) station on the line in Phila. It looks like a Broad St line station because all the former Bridge Line stations (16th to Broadway-Camden) looked this way. Observe the closed portions of City Hall-Camden and you'll see the same motif.
The only other closed station on the Phila system is Spring Garden on the Ridge Spur.
To the best of my knowledge, the Sears station, which was actually beneath a parking garage close to the Adams-Whitaker intersection, was destroyed when the complex was demolished/imploded several years ago.
The Arch St tunnel (which exists in two segments, one near 10th and the other between 12th and 13th) was built as part of a Center City loop subway. The portions on 8th St and Locust St were completed in part and now are used by PATCO and the Ridge Spur (8th St only for Ridge). The Arch St segments were sealed off and today contain utility lines but nothing else. Another stretch of subway exists in the Henry Ave bridge over Lincoln Drive in East Falls.
You certainly know your Philly stuff. What kinds of lines would you like to see in Philadelphia?
I've always wanted to see a Roosevelt Blvd. line and something to both NW Philly(Mt. Airy, Germantown) and something to SW Philly, possibly along Woodland Ave.
In addition to your dream lines (and the Roosevelt Blvd one might be a reality someday!), I'd like to (selfishly) see something to the Roxborough/Manayunk area so I can ride it instead of the stinky articulated Volvo buses. Ideally, my system would be:
A southwest line (either Woodland Ave or rapid transit on the Airport High Speed line)
Two northeast lines - one up the Blvd, the other along Amtrak R/W which could branch off either the Frankford el or the Broad St subway
A Rox/Man line, using the Henry Ave bridge provisions and beneath Ridge Ave
A Chestnut Hill line, using the CH West R/W and tieing into the Broad St subway
A Center City delivery loop via Arch St, 5th St, Walnut St and 22nd St with branches at the west to serve 30th St Station and at the east to serve Penns Landing
This would be complemented with the following light rail lines:
A Delaware Ave line from Pier 70 to Penn Treaty Park, meeting the Frankford el at Spring Garden
Extension of Route 10 to Overbrook rail station
Extension of the subway-surface tunnel beneath Chestnut St to Penns Landing
A Roxborough line via the R6 R/W thru Cynwyd and West Phila, tieing into the subway-surface at Route 10's portal (36th St)
Conversion of Chestnut Hill East and Fox Chase (with a branch extended along the ex-Reading NY Short Line to Woodhaven Rd) rail lines to light rail, operating along a portion of the regional rail trunk (ex-Reading) to a new Center City tunnel which would tie into the extended subway-surface subway, thus allowing at least 3 current sub-surface lines to run through Center City - my choice would be to send 13 and 36 to the new Penns Landing terminal and run through 10, 11 and 34)
Conversion of trackless route 66 to light rail with a branch to the terminal of the Blvd rapid line at Southampton Rd - this branch would operate via Franklin Mills
Conversion of bus route 52 (52nd St) to light rail
Upgrading of trolley routes 15 and 56 to light rail (15 is currently under design), modified as follows:
15 - Overbrook station (via 63rd St) to Richmond & Cumberland only
56 - Ridge/Wissahickon transfer, via Ridge, Allegheny and Hunting Park to regular route at HP & Erie, extended to Torresdale rail station from existing Cottman loop via Torresdale, Linden and Amtrak R/W
What do you think? Anybody got a couple of billions sitting around with nothing to spend it on?
At last!
Somebody who thinks the 52 would make a good trolley!
Also, the extension of the SS tunnel sounds good, but do you think it would stay under Market St?
Maybe it should run along Arch St to put rapid transit literall at the doorstep of the Convention Center and the Greyhound Bus Terminal.
Maybe at the 13th St loop it could go north to Arch, stopping at 11th, 10th and 8th Sts, turn down 5th, stop at Market St(it would of course have to be deeper than the El) than run along Chestnut to Penn's Landing, making it more conveniant than walking up the stairs to Market than a block west.
I think both of you are ignoring a far easier way of seeing a lot of the serivces you would like to see in the Philly area, namely the upgrading of the electric commuter lines (read Regional Rail lines in Septa parlance).
On transit systmes in better run countries, like Berlin and Munich's in Germany (after which the Septa system was suppsoedly patterned following the opening of the Center City tunnel), the trains run every 10-20 minutes all day on every line, there are car-floor level platforms at every stop, the trains have their own dedicated tracks (mostly) and the trains run on an honor system of fare collection with enforcement via fines and jail time for violators. This same system could very easily be implemented in Philly with a minimal capital budget. In fact, we already have something very similar called the PATCO line, which is a tremendous success. Imagine how much traffic relief could be achieved if lines like the Chesnut Hill West, Fox Chase, Paoli, Media/Elwyn, Lansdale, and Warminster lines were run like the PATCO line with fast, frequent, inexpensive service.
The main works would be raising most of the platforms (hardly a herculean task - Metro-North and Long Island have done it and NJT is doing it now) and installing the center doors on the Silverliners, with door control by the engineer in the cab. Conductors could ride the trains on Amtrak's lines to satisfy FRA rules (essentially 30th St. to Trenton, Wilmington/Newark, and Downingtown/Thorndale). The now unneeded conductors, trainmen, and ticket agents could be put to work either as new engineers or as police/ticket rule enforcers enhancing public safety at stations.
A few projects here and there to extend the reach of the system, such as extending service up the short-line from Cheltenham Jct. to Neshaminy Falls, suburban extensions such as Fox Chase-Newtown, Norristown-Reading, Norrisotwn-Lansdale, Lansdale-Lehigh Valley, Elwyn-Wawa-Oxford/Rt. 1, Frazer-West Chester (from Paoli via the abandoned northern right of way into town), Warminster-Ivyland, Yeadon-Newtown Square, Conshohocken-King of Prussia-Frazer, Allen Lane-Fort Washington/Blue Bell, could then be tacked on at fairly minimal costs (commuter rail is not very expensive to build - it is costly to operate if you do it the stupid way it is done now). The High-Line and Delaware Extension could be re-electrified to provide serivce to sports events, concerts, boxing matches, etc. at the S. Philly stadiums.
Your remaining pot of dollars could then be turned to a few easily built subway extensions and trolley improvements. Some examples:
1) The Market-Frankford could be extended up to the Roosevelt near Harbison Ave. and continue on the surface in the wide median up to Rhawn Circle, jumping over Cottman Ave. in the process (while requring only Ryan and Tyson Aves. to be closed at the boulevard). if you go much further you require longer platforms in the tunnel, which would cost $$$'s galore.
2) The Broad St. line could be extended up Stenton and Ogontz to the Cheltenham Mall/Ceaderbrook Shopping Center area.
3) By joining the Norristown and Manyunk lines at Miquon, the commuter trains could rise above the flood prone Miquon area and use the Manyunk branch into town. Meanwhile, the Norristown line could be hooked up to the Broad St. Subway at N. Philly station by demolishing the existing island platforms and making side local platforms. The line could then be extended from Manyunk under the hill Roxborough sits upon to Andorra and beyond via Ridge Ave. The Chesnut Hill West line could be brought down to 16th St. jct. on the Norrisotwn line right of way to take its slot and avoid the inevitable delays on Amtrak.
4) Extending subway-surface trolley service along the 42/Spruce route towards 69th St.
5) Extending trolley serivce down Henry Ave. from lower Roxborough, along 29th St., the City Subway, and 20th St. into the subway surface tunnel.
6) Extending the 36/Elmwood line to the airport via the current commuter rail right of way then down the middle road loop behind baggage claim, while simultaneously rerouting the commuter rail from near Island Ave. cross-country to the north end of the airport line, then along in front of the old Scott Paper headquarters through Westinghouse and Lester to the Amtrak line at Chester and following that to Wilmington.
7) Extending Patco under Locust to the Schuykill River, then swinging up to Chesnut to provide a connection to 30th St. Sta., then along Chesnut to stations in the 33rd-34th St. and 38th St. areas to serve Drexel and Penn.
8) Providing some sort of connection to bring more lines from Jersey (such as from Burlington, Mt. Holly, Glendora/Deptford, Glassboro, and Penns Grove) into the city. Whether this would involve a new tunnel, or reclaiming the two outer road lanes on the Ben Frankline Bridge for rapid transit I don't know.
9) Extending subway-surface routes somehow to Penns Landing and eastern South St./Society Hill. Maybe a route along Arch St. and down Second St. would work best.
Well, that's my pie-in-the-sky dreamland. I think you get a lot mroe bang for your buck with this, especially if the commuter rail can be made to not eat up so much of the Septa operating budget. And if it was so improved, you wouldn't need to replace a lot of it with duplicative rapid transit lines.
Andy Byler
Your last point is why I don't think much of the regional rail system. It DOES chew up a large portion of SEPTA's budget, especially considering the ridership it gets. The fares are way too high. The whole basis of operation, with railroad crews and conductors, is way behind the times. The whole RR system could easily be converted to light rail, operationally, and then the changes in fare collection would make sense. Any continuation of Silverliner cars, push-pull, etc is only retaining the past. The newest 'liner's are approaching their 25th birthdays. SEPTA should think seriously about the purchase of high-performance light rail cars to re-equip the lines one by one, and then meaningful extensions of service to new territory can begin.
As much as I like you proof-of-payment idea, let's come back to reality. This is Philadelphia, not Portland, not San Diego, not many other places. This will not work here until the mindset of the population changes. Regardless of how much the penalty is, the courts and police in this town just won't enforce and it will become a joke. I would much prefer a PATCO-type fare system with gates at the heavier stops and on-board ticket swipes/validators for the lighter ones. I noticed that POP fare works in St Louis only because of the heavy presence of inspectors - on a visit there last year, I noted that people made sure they were off the cars by Laclede Landing, the last stop in St Louis before crossing the Mississippi. No wonder why - this is where the inspectors boarded. Same at the stop at Busch Stadium outbound.
I like some of your ideas, but I also note that you want to better utilize the regional rail lines. Yet you suggest some new territory for service also. We have different dreams but they are similar in many ways as well.
Insofar as South Jersey service, I didn't touch the subject. There are very strong anti feelings on rail there now and while I don't understand them, they exist. Why PATCO has never branched out, based on its success, is beyond me. I suspect the political realities and suburban fear play into this.
>The whole RR system could easily be converted to light rail, >operationally, and then the changes in fare collection would make >sense. Any continuation of Silverliner cars, push-pull, etc is only >retaining the past.
See, I don't think that linking a particular kind of fare collection to a particular kind of mode is the best way of thinking about the problem. One of the nice by-products of endless "what's light/heavy rail?" debates on m.t.u-t. a couple of years back was the idea that modes are merely historical combinations of varying options: different r-o-w, different fare collection systems, et cetera.
With that in mind, there's no reason to convert Septa RRD to light rail or any "new technology" to obtain quick, cheap, and lasting improvements in service. Better fare collection and high platform boarding are a matter of station design and capital budgets. Fares might be too high, but a fundamentally different fare structure is hard to envision. Crew changes--eliminating jobs--on a systemwide scale would be difficult to accomplish even with excellent labor-management relations. There are, however, a lot of common-sense improvements that we all can see are crying out to be made *now*.
-Daniel Casey
What I'm advocating is not merely a change for the sake of change, but a change to reflect the service the lines provide. The only reason the regional rail system has conductors, railroad-style cars, etc is their heritage as railroad lines. You can't transfer from a SEPTA bus or rapid transit line to a regional rail line and vice versa the same way you can transfer among City Transit lines. I ask why not, other than artificial boundaries. Here's an example from my personal commute.
I ride an express bus for a one-seat ride from my home to my office and back every day. For this service I pay one token each way. The bus is 1/2 block from my house. I could ride regional rail for better than twice the cost, which would require me to drive to the nearest RR station (1 1/2 miles + away) and back. Since I only own one car that is otherwise in use during the day, I'd need to buy another car. The total time savings is about 5 minutes. Why would I do this?
However, my bus passes a RR station just before it goes into express mode. Thus, it is competing with the RR line in some respects. Wouldn't it be better for the bus to terminate at the RR station and allow me to buy a 40 cent transfer to continue my ride into Center City Phila on rail rather than ride a bus which must compete with other traffic on a crowded expressway? The artificial barriers prevent this.
SEPTA spends an inordinate amount of its capital and operating budgets on RR when over 85% of its riders are on City Transit. Why not integrate RR and City Transit the same way that City Transit, Red Arrow and Frontier have been integrated? Why the class distinction (and is it just that - keep the city dwellers and the suburb'ites separated)? To me, the bang for the buck is to get rid of the outdated RR rules and methods and look to becoming more efficient to keep costs down and productivity high. One big way to do this is to look to light rail technology as the wave of the future for the RR lines.
[To me, the bang for the buck is to get rid of the outdated RR rules and methods and look to becoming more efficient to keep costs down and productivity high. One big way to do this is to look to light rail technology as the wave of the future for the RR lines.]
Good point about fare structure; I remember, as a kid, trying to pay for a ride from Merion to Bryn Mawr and hearing an RRD conductor explain that "tokens mean nothing to me." Further integration of the RRD into City Transit operations is also a laudable goal.
But I think you overestimate the degree to which operating rules are tied to particular modes. I would have to see an overwhelmingly compelling reason to scrap commuter-style equipment, and work rules aren't one of them. You'd probably face more political pressure against such a massive, job-cutting capital investment as you would against trying to reform the work rules in regular contract negotiations. It seems silly to transform the equipment and infrastructure just to surreptitiously change work rules.
A bigger issue, for me, is compatibility: the FRA is not going to like lighter railcars running a few feet from heavy NEC equipment. Even if you retained commuter-style running on lines that also served a long-distance market, light-rail-izing the other lines would prevent their extension (more accurately, "restoration") to more distant terminals. A trolley from Quakertown, Allentown, or somewhere along the Bound Brook line? A better use of capital dollars would be to bring back diesel running by ventilating the tunnel in Center City or investing in new dual-mode equipment.
And finally, in making the "light rail" cars large, fast, and comfortable enough to sustain the kind of passenger volume one currently sees on the RRD, or could envision with more frequent stops in the city and better integration with City Transit, you'll probably end up with something much closer to "heavy rail" equipment. Pretty similar to what we have now.
-Daniel Casey
As I noted before, I'm not looking into a wholesale change just for the sake of change. Within the next 10-15 years nearly the entire Silverliner fleet will be ready for replacement. I think that in itself presents an opportunity for change. Perhaps not all RR lines can be successfully converted, but most of them can. I hope that something along these lines can be done to integrate the Phila regional system. If not, I think transit in our fair city is in serious trouble.
Ok,
Some of the ideas sound good. But the El running in the median of the Boulevard?
Forgive me if I start to sound NIMBY, but I don't think that would be so hot.
When I think of a Roosevelt Blvd. line, I thought of having the stations underground and having a mezzanine from either side ofthe Blvd.instead ofrunning in the median(Would you want to have to cross it to get to the El? It's a 12 lane death rally!)
And what to do if it were to cross say, Oxford Circle?
I think that the street looks as beautiful as it can get because of that GENEROUS median, and it would be marred if the El were to run along it.
Next, I like the idea of extending PATCO to the Drexel/Penn area. Being employed in the area, I have many NJ acquaintances who would certainly appreciate that instead of having to ride the El all the way to 8th St.
And finally, as for the South Jersey connections, if they're fighting this light rail project tooth and nail, I don't think they would be very supportive of something connecting them to the city. Most SJ commuters either already take PATCO or prefer the bridges(AFAIK).
In response to some points raised by my Philly dreams:
1) Having lived in Wenonah for 3 years until last June I can tell you exactly why S. Jersey is living in fear and loathing of any sort of rail transport - crime. These people seriously believe that the swarthy hordes of Blacks and Puerto Ricans in Camden are going to swoop down into Woodbury, Wenonah, Pitman, and Glassboro by riding the new Patco line. Once there they will run riot, steal everybody's color TV and stereo system, and rape all the women while mugging the men. If this ridiculous vision were not so passionately believed by so many of the residents down there it would be laughable - but it is. Most of these people are deathly afraid to even enter Camden, lest bad things happen to them there. I have actually seen the frightened suburabnites make a convoy to drive "safely" through Camden to Immaculate Conception Cathedral for a special Mass. The way around this problem is simply brute force - ram it down their throats. Of course Patco to Glassboro is no more going to cause a crime spree than it did in hoity-toity Haddonfield. But don't try telling refugees of Philly and Camden now living in the S. jersey suburbs that.
2) Part of the reason that the Roosevelt was built with such a wide median was to put a rapid transit line up the middle of it. Having to place it in a subway would be extraordinarily costly, what with subways running at $100+ million per mile nowadays. Placing the Market-Frankford line there will no more ruin its looks than the green line trolleys up here in Boston where I now live "ruins" the look of exclusive Beacon St. and Commonwealth Ave. where it runs up the median of those Boulevards. The whole idea I had was to see the elevated dip into a subway along Bustleton Ave. up to the Roosevelt, where the first station would be located. It would the reach the median in the surface just past Harbison Ave. and run on the surface to just south of the latitude of St. Vincent St. There it would go airborne over Cottman Ave., with a stop on the birdge while the express lanes dip under that street. It would then rejoin the median at north of Guilford St. and run along it until south of Loney St. there it would dip under the express lanes at Rhawn Ave. and continue to and underground station between there and Holmes Circle. Beyond Holmes Circle there is no practical inexpensive Roosevelt Blvd. right of way, because the wide median vanishes. There is also not as much population density along the Blvd. north of there.
3) Converting the commuter rail system to light rail would be extremely costly and unnecessary. First, it would be less comfortable, as light rail cars do not offer as smooth a ride or as nice of seats as commuter rail (as the advocates of making the Shucykill Valley Metro a trolley will discover when they pull their collective heads out of their ass). Second, it would be incompatible with the existing system(s) without regaging and re-electrifying. Third, it would be even slower than SEPTA's already pitfully slow service, as trolleys cannot reach the speeds that commuter rail does. Fourth, it could not be done on Amtrak's lines, which would require retaining the commuter rail tunnel. Same goes for the lines which see freight service all day, such as the Norristown, Airport, Fox Chase, Chestnut Hill West, Warminster, and Lansdale lines. Fifth, why reinvent the wheel when what is needed is fine tuning? The commuter rail lines need a lower cost structure, more frequent service, and higher speeds. As I pointed out, the S-Bahn commuter train system in Munich and Berlin is essentially a better version of what we suffer with over here. We *could* have a system like that if our collective will power was put to it, *and* it would *not* cost a lot of money compared to other alternatives one hears.
4) I am all for automatic fare collection if it could be done, because that is even better than proof of payment. I am not sure, however, how much fencing would be required to achieve "blockout" of fare evaders on the commuter rail lines. I know that this was done on Metra Electric quite sucessfully a number of years ago. It would be nice if the fare cards produced under such a system also worked in the swipe machines of the subway, buses, and trolleys. Perhaps a free transfer arrangement could be set up at 30th St., Suburban Station, Market East, Fern Rock, and North Philly/N. Broad. If my Reading/Miquon-Manyunk bypass/Broad St. subway pipe-dreams were to come to pass, Manyunk could be another free trnasfer point. Something would have to be done, under such a scheme, to make the subway-surface cars system compatible - perhaps onboard validation would be needed there - otherwise barriers would have to go up downtown.
Andy
Not to belabor the points but I will clarify:
2. The wide median of the Roosevelt Blvd has nothing to do with rapid transit. When the Blvd was originally built in 1915-20, it was built as two distinct roadways with a very wide median between them as a sort of parkway. The current service (outer) drives were these roadways. The opportunity for the inner drives was seized in the postwar 1940's and these were gradually added through the late 50's. The Northeast subway was always conceived to be a subway beneath the north-side roadway and only used the Blvd from Broad St to Whitaker Ave, where it would branch off to follow the Pennway St right of way at grade. Later, when the Northeast Freeway was proposed, this line would have used the median of the Freeway (also to be built on the bed of Pennway St). It was never proposed to follow the Blvd median. The median itself was (and still is today), strangely enough, part of the City's Fairmount Park system.
3. I don't agree. Light rail can be built to commuter-type standards with high-performance cars and high levels of comfort. Portland's line is over 35 miles from end to end, and there are some riders who use it for this distance. I do agree that the Schuylkill Valley Metro makes little sense as light rail, but even the extreme commutes on the regional rail system, i.e. Downingtown (30 miles), Wilmington (about the same), Doylestown (similar), aren't out of the realm of possibilities for light rail. Let's face it - the Silverliners will wear out someday (and people will probably bemoan their demise just as some don't like to see the Budds leave the El), and this will present an opportunity for a wholesale change. I'm not saying scrap it today, but I'm planning for this eventuality.
I agree with your feelings on suburban fear of the cities, and this is an unfortunate truth. It's too bad that people don't realize that the inner city element they fear so much is already driving cars (yes, these folk own cars! Heavens!) and reaching the suburban outposts without the benefit of transit. When's the last time you saw someone carrying a TV on public transit?
By the way, real Phila folk spell it "Manayunk".
I will agree with your history of the Roosevelt for now, although the pictures from the 1920's which I recall seeing in Philly historical picture books show four roadways starting from a wye shaped junction at Broad St. I believe the original four roadways may have narrowed to two at Oxford Circle back then, but I can't be sure. I'll have to check these before I get back to you on this.
As far as Light Rail systems being the equivalent of Commuter rail systems, I must disagree. I am a railway design engineer and I am certain there are no lines termed light rail lines which approach the service of a Commuter rail line. The closest example might be the Riverside line in Boston, which uses a former Commuter rail branch. However it certainly is not a Commuter rail line anymore. It is much more akin to a heavy-rail line using light-weight vehicles (kind of like the Philadelphia and Western - aka the Norristown High Speed Line). I think what you are essentially thinking of is more along these lines, or somewhat like PATCO than something like all of the light rail lines in this country. The type of service provided by PATCO is what our commuter rail lines should be like, and there is no reason present equipment could not be modified to provide it with some capital upgrades on the lines. In any case, massive conversion work would only make sense if there was not an existing electric system already in place, as was the case with the Boston Riverside line.
Yes, as far as black inner city crime goes, I always thought the most hilarious image would be one of these criminals running with a color TV in a trash bag to the PATCO stop and waiting calmly for the train with the police hot on his tail. Then again maybe it is not so far-fetched. When I was young, my dad and I once ran into a man on Germantown Ave. near Carpenter Ln. who offered us the new color TV he had in his trash bag for $50. When we refused the transaction he calmy continued walking down the street towards the neighborhood of Germantown.
Finally, I didn't know that a spelling error disqualified my birth in Overbrook and childhood in W. Philly and Mt. Airy from giving me "real" Philadelphian status. Anyway, real Philadelphians I know may spell in Manayunk, but they say it Ma-ny-unk, just like we also say Ol-o-ney instead of Ol-ney or Ac-a-me instead of Ac-me.
Andy Byler
And don't forget to say "Bridge and Pratt" as if it were an intersection of two streets! This one always gets me laughing! The latest comes with the "rebirth" of what we knew as "Manny-yunk", which, now that it's genteel, is starting to be pronounced "Man-a-yunk".
I'm a transportation engineer also, unfortunately not specifically in railways. While the light rail vs. heavy rail debate goes on (and the old P & W defies all current definitions), I personally think that light rail cars, such as the Duwags used in Pittsburgh, St Louis, Denver, San Diego, etc (or the Portland cars, either class), could work on the RR lines. The closeness of stations on many of the existing lines, e.g. Paoli, Chestnut Hill (East and West), Media, almost begs for a lower-performance car than the Silverliners.
Don't forget the abandoned station at Spring Garden St. on the Ridge spur.
And yes, the trains DO take the full loop around the yard on Sundays.
Spring Garden on the Ridge Spur makes me feel at home-- Covered with graffiti resembling 91st and Broadway in NYC
It's been great the response I've had so far. Thanks everyone.
I've been having trouble finding photos of the signage that was up at that time, such as platform and station signs (maps that were up, warning signs, directions, etc.)
Anyone know how I mught be able to come across some? And stuff like what did the light fixtures look like?
The signage was usually black letters on a white enameled steel sign suspended by square rods and brackets from the station ceiling. Many stations have mosaic signs, or tablets; these are essentially unchanged from 1964, with some exceptions where stations have been renovated (i.e.3rd Avenue/149th St Bronx) Station signs where suspended from the ceiling had a Roman font for IRT/BMT stations or Sans Serif font for IND. Some BMT and IRT stations had white letters on a dark blue background.
There is a photo in the Subway Car Roster under R40 called R40-AS22.jpg which shows an IND station with an original "NO Smoking/Spitting" warning sign. The photo, taken in either 1969 or early 1970, shows the 71st Avenue IND station with much of its late 1930s look intact. Note the incandescent lighting.
Click here to see this photo.
If you are planning to recreate an IRT or BMT station with its mosaic tablet, it is suggested that the mosaic frieze above it be duplicated as accurately as possible. If an IND station, a tile band of two colors substitutes for the mosaic frieze. Once you have decided on your station, I will give you the exact (RGB) colors and frieze or tile band dimensions, plus the appropriate pattern.
White Tiles mesaure exactly 4.25" inches square, the same as standard bathroom tile.
Lighting was mostly flourescent tubes as you have today on IRT and BMT lines. IND station lighting was bare 36-Watt Incandescent Bulbs, (use 40-watt GE standard, NOT soft-white) either single bulbs set in a ceiling socket or suspended from the ceiling on an iron rod OR a cluster-fixture containing between two and four bulbs, either set close to ceiling or suspended on an iron rod where the ceiling was higher than normal. I think only a very few IND stations had flourescent light in 1964, mostly in the center of Manhattan (i.e. 47-50th Street, 34th St-8 Ave, 14th St-8 Ave and 42nd St-8 Ave).
Wayne
I picked up a flyer today that said SEPTA is closing the west part (30-69 St) of the El for the next four Sunday mornings to "renew the third-rail electrical power line...to improve service on the line and to enhance the operation of our new fleet of [MFL] cars."
I've seen postings here before that mentioned the "new power needs" of the new M-4 cars. So I assume that means the new cars require *more* power? But haven't there been advances in power efficiency since the 60s? Especially with new braking technologies, etc?
The cars have air conditioning so they will draw more power than the Budds when the AC is on. Also, probably more importantly, the third rail in that stretch of the line has become seriously deteriorated, as I have been told.
The WHOLE LINE is seriously deteriorated!!!
The third rail in often bare in places (even under pltforms), and at 69th street is in overgrown with grass. As are the tracks in a lot of places. I'm seriously amazed that that line runs as well as it does, because it's in such lousey shape.
...and for this reason, SEPTA is planning to rebuild the nearly 100-year old el structure on Market Street.
I was in Philly recently driving around downtown and saw tracks on the street level. Are these still in use? They look like trolley tracks.
Strange to go to the subway station on Market Street and see what they call a subway (Compared to New York). A single car operation. Do they run multiple cars during the week?
What you saw underground was our "subway-surface" light rail. It serves four stops in center city via subway tunnels, although throughout most of the city it runs on the street tracks you saw. It replaced the PCC trolleys that used to run here.
We do have two traditional subway lines, like in New York. If you visited the 19th or 22nd street stations, you might have noticed tracks in the center of the tunnel. These serve the blue line, which always runs in 6-car trains.
For pictures of the two subway lines, as well as the LRVs you saw, see:
http://www.nycsubway.org/phila/septa/
You apparently did not travel far enough in town. Philadelphia runs subway lines resembling any others you've seen. The El, a two track line that runs from the northeast to Upper Darby and the Broad Street subway, which if it doesn't remind you of a NYC subway, nothing will.
We have PATCO, a commuter line similar to PATH but unlike NYC we still have trolleys(even PCC's at the holidays).
And no, the city trolleys never run in MU's because they can't. The lines out of 69th St. Terminal(101 and 102)run in two car MU's all the time as does the NHSL(the 100).
SEPTA does run two car trains in the subway-surface. The cars are equipped with long shank couplers that fold under the ends for storage. When coupled, there is over eight feet between coupled cars, so makeshift flexible barriers are placed between the cars. (They ave even ised sections of snow fencing, which makes for a real professional look.
Trains have been used on Routes 10 and 13. Rush hours (Load Line in Philly terms) only.
The long shank couplers are used, supposidly because standard couplers would cause the car ends to hit at certain places in the subway. Remember the Kawasaki's have what are USLRV ends on CLRV bodies. Makes for a funny clearance envelope.
The two-car trains no longer run due, in part, to the long distance between coupled cars. As Dan noted, tape and "snow fencing" was used since passengers and pedestrians developed the habits of walking between coupled cars. When you see any coupled cars these days, it indicates that the set is out of service and one car is merely pulling or pushing the other due to disability, etc.
Although you have to admit you hate to see the old el go.But then again its better then Boston who is tearing down there last elevated.SEPTA is at least keeping an el in West Philthadelphia.
Damn straight the whole lines deteriorating!
The stations I always worry about are 63rd St. and especially Millbourne. They closed that station last week because of the ice and snow the city recently experienced.
I worry about the bare stretches of third rail. The kids from local schools around 46th St. at times like to play chicken with the trains, sometimes even getting on the tracks!
Hey;
I haven't been here in a long time! I will be able to access the internet more now and visit here allot more.
My question is what went wrong in NCY with the Stom of '99? I case you didn't here, here's what happened here in Chicago.
CTA Rail ( L & Subway)
Red Line: Overcrowded trains on monday and shuttle bus accompanying trains From 95th/Dan Ryan to Loop to relieve overcrowding tuesday--friday. Still very crowded and waits by the end of the week going down from 1 or 2 hours to 15 or 30 minutes for a train.
Blue Line: Shut-down between Jefferson Park and Ohare because of third rail problems and passengers shutteled between JP and Ohare Tuesday--Friday.
Entire Rail System: Monday all commuters expierenced delays because 1/2 of the CTA's cars that were purchased in the early 80's will short out if fulffy snow get under them and 150 of them did. ( I believe 2600 series). Tuesday--Friday it was better because the cars slowly got fixed and back into service and CTA ran trains Express to Loop when the got overcrowded and no one else could board. Blue Line problem was fixed by Wednesday, but passengers were shuttled till saturday because their was a shortage of cars due to the 150 shorting out monday!
Purple Line Express : None, it didn't run until next week Monday. Only shutteled passengers between Linden and Howard to get on the crowded REd Line. Cars normally used for express were used on other lines where needed.
What do you think about this and what happened in NYC with the storm, proabaly nothing this major!
I think that the CTA did everything well, except the Evanston Express, it should have ran and shuttle busses should have ran on the Skokie Swift and Ravenswood from Belmont to Kimball if needed.
BJ
Metra;
Many delays, not as severe as the CTA, but trains haven't been on time for some commuters since 1998. My Aunt had to wait 1 and 1/2 hours past the time her train was suppost to come. I can't really say that well because the media doesn't cover Metra delays as well as the CTA. All they do is play those Metra commercials that say Take Metra instead of Driving in Winter!
BJ
How did the South Shore do?
Hey;
I haven't been here in a long time! I will be able to access the internet more now and visit here allot more.
My question is what went wrong in NCY with the Stom of '99? I case you didn't here, here's what happened here in Chicago.
CTA Rail ( L & Subway)
Red Line: Overcrowded trains on monday and shuttle bus accompanying trains From 95th/Dan Ryan to Loop to relieve overcrowding tuesday--friday. Still very crowded and waits by the end of the week going down from 1 or 2 hours to 15 or 30 minutes for a train.
Blue Line: Shut-down between Jefferson Park and Ohare because of third rail problems and passengers shutteled between JP and Ohare Tuesday--Friday.
Entire Rail System: Monday all commuters expierenced delays because 1/2 of the CTA's cars that were purchased in the early 80's will short out if fulffy snow get under them and 150 of them did. ( I believe 2600 series). Tuesday--Friday it was better because the cars slowly got fixed and back into service and CTA ran trains Express to Loop when the got overcrowded and no one else could board. Blue Line problem was fixed by Wednesday, but passengers were shuttled till saturday because their was a shortage of cars due to the 150 shorting out monday!
Purple Line Express : None, it didn't run until next week Monday. Only shutteled passengers between Linden and Howard to get on the crowded REd Line. Cars normally used for express were used on other lines where needed.
What do you think about this and what happened in NYC with the storm, proabaly nothing this major!
I think that the CTA did everything well, except the Evanston Express, it should have ran and shuttle busses should have ran on the Skokie Swift and Ravenswood from Belmont to Kimball if needed.
BJ
Metra;
Many delays, not as severe as the CTA, but trains haven't been on time for some commuters since 1998. My Aunt had to wait 1 and 1/2 hours past the time her train was suppost to come a week or 2 after the storm. I can't really say that well because the media doesn't cover Metra delays as well as the CTA. All they do is play those Metra commercials that say Take Metra instead of Driving in Winter!
BJ
Couple of items mentioned
New Fare Promotions
Mail-N= Ride Metrocards 1999
----for the visually impaired
New Ride Now and Pay Later Plan
Unlimited Rides
Pay a Bill by Credit Card or Check
\
New Buses 1999
350 40 FT Orions
55 CNG New FLyer Low FLoor Buses for Gleason Depot
10 Buses Low Floor Hybrid Electric Manhattanville
260 New FLyer Artic Buses
Maintenance Facilities
1999
Fresh Pond to become THe Brooklyn Division Office
Crosstown will become a Unit Shop
Zerega Av Faciltiy to become the Central Maintenance
Facility replacing ENY
Jackie Gleason to become CNG Fueling and Repair
Rebuilds
Coliseum by late 2000
100 st by 2001
Automated Vehicle Locator and COntrol\
1999 Pilot
M15
M31
M35
M57
M66
M116
There have been a couple of test/pilot programs going on for a while now:
[New Fare Promotions
Mail-N= Ride Metrocards 1999
----for the visually impaired]
[New Ride Now and Pay Later Plan
Unlimited Rides
Pay a Bill by Credit Card or Check]
---------------------------------------
As part of the LIRR Mail-N-Ride some Sr/Disabl have been offored a "Pay Later" LIRR ticket/MetroCard.
The TA picked up on this (I don't think they started at the same time) and now some Seniors have them(we've seen a lot of clergy with them).
At the farebox it caused problems, because the TA didn't tell anyone that they were doing this, so we saw one cent fares & challenged a few customers.
This program is going to be converted to pay first & ride later, can you say E-Z-Pass. For the TA group it may cause some problems, but the LIRR group is mostly credit card users already.
Mr t__:^)
Hi I would like to know the address of where to write to the MTA about service cuts on the G line. It is disgusting and ridiculous of its service cuts on the G line and I will like to know the address as to where Greenpoint, Brooklyn can petition to about increasing service and suggestions. This line is the main source of public transportation for the neighborhood to get into Manhattan. Thank you for your help.
To my knowledge, there haven't been any service cuts on the G, or anywhere else for that matter, in recent months. However, you can write to NYCT about anything, at:
Customer Assistance
NYC Transit
370 Jay Street, 7th Floor
Brooklyn NY 11201
David
If they do decide to build a subway line on 2nd av why would they only make it 2 lines? All subway line should be built or have been built with at least 3 tracks. Think of all the 2 track line that have delays. If one train gets stuck the whole line is screwed
If and When they build the thing, it will likely be computerized with reverse-signals the whole way. So the the extra tracks COULD be unecessary.
-Hank
Of course the early 1950s, the people of the City approved a half billion dollar bond issue that was supposed to get them a six-track Second Avenue subway (six tracks at least from Delancey to 76th Street). It was the anti-express TA that reduced it in the 1970s to two tracks.
Bi-directional signals aren't new; center express tracks have them, the 42nd Street Shuttle has had them for years, and when they reduced the Culver Shuttle to a single track, that route did also. And people shouldn't forget the TA's proposal to build the Nostrand Avenue extension as a one-track subway with passing sidings at stations. (after the TA backed down from its position that if they were really going to have to build the Nostrand Avenue extension promised as part of that bond issue, it would have to be an elevated line).
By the way, if the TA is the operator of the New York City subway system, doesn't the City still own the lines (and cars)? If that's the case, why should the TA (or the MTA) have anything to say about where lines go? Those should be political decisions by elected people, not bureaucrats.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Supposedly, it was calculated that with higher speeds, fewer stations, and cab signaling, a two-track line would have ample capacity. I agree that a third track would be a good idea for emergency reroutes.
The Interborough Rapid Transit Company (IRT) in 1904 published a book describing in great detail the contruction and equipment used on the original IRT subway. This book was limited to a printed quantity of 200 given out diginitaries at the opening of the subway on October 27, 1904.
I recently obtained an original copy of this book. It is my understanding that the original printing was limited to 200 copies and the next printing was in 1969 by Arno Press. Can anyone confirm that this is true. Also, does anyone have knowledge of how many copies of the 1904 printing still exist today and what parties own these copies.
My E-Mail address is chrisr23@juno.com.
I'm not sure this will help: From the jacket of the 1969 edition: "To celebrate the occasion (the opening), the original edition of this book, which was limited to a scant 200 copies, was distributed among the high-ranking guests."
Heh, I found the origional printing of that book at a book fair once...I thought it was cool, my mom didn't think it was that cool...I think the price tag was what did it for her. I recall it being around 75 or so...
Oh well. I didn't know they were a special printing, though I was kinda assuming they weren't widely printed, as I never heard or saw anything like it before...
You made quite a find, apparently.
And, like the 600 buck Wurlitzer 2204 jukebox I once found (or maybe it was a 2200 afterall), I didn't get it because it was "too expensive" at the time. Of course, not like a working Wurlitzer 2200 series machine is worth big bucks, but that was still half what they normally fetch (figure 3 - 4 k for them, the big bucks these days are 50's Seeburgs, notebly the V series)
I've noticed when I let my parents control my pocketbook, I often pass up the good deals :/
According to today's Post the MetroCard
vending machines have arrived near the Columbus Circle IND token booth and will soon appear at the IRT Lex & 68th St.station. Evidently they will not be in operation until Monday although the article isn't very clear on that point. That is, either the Columbus Circle machine is in operation now and the East Side machine will be put in place on Monday or both will be in operation starting on Monday.
The TA plan is to turn them on Monday Jan 25th. I assume that Cubic & the TA will want to make sure they work first (my Cubic source told me that training has been going on for some time now, s-o-o-o- unless they got dropped or something they should work).
P.S. We have one of those "Green Cards" posted for all our drivers to see what they will look like, if we do get one presented to us. One of my labors of love is to make up postors that incl. collections of various stuff we get as a fare. It used to be more fun when we got bills :-( To my friend Jim K. in the Windy City, and Ootani in Tokyo, your transit cards made my last poster. (I like to incl. odd stuff so it doesn't look to "official", that way more of them look at it & MAYBE they even learn something)
Mr t__:^)
I'll stay at Beacon Hotel (Broadway, between 74 and 75 th)on February 7th.
What subway's line is convenient to take (1,9 or 2,3)?
Which is faster to go to South of Island?
Which is less dangerous?
What's that area on day and night like?
Thanks you very much!
The 1/9 and the 2/3 both operate from the same station (72nd Street). The entrance to the station is less than 200 meters from the Beacon Hotel. Take whichever train comes first -- the time difference is less than 5 minutes.
The neighborhood is as safe as New York gets -- both day and night.
I'm a subway modeler who scratch builds cars. I'm looking at the R62 and R68 and I need to get photos and get dimensions of both. I have the various car drawings in the Greller, Sansone and the TA shop drawings, but I need to get underbody details, take measurements, etc.
So, does anybody know if there's somewhere within the TA where drawings of the cars exist and if I can get copies of them? Also, how do I get permission to visit a yard or car shop where I can photograph and make sketches?
Does anyone have the drawings for August Belmont's private subway car the Mineola IRT #3344? Also, does anyone have photographs of the Mineola on the IRT property?
So far I have never seen a shot of the "Mineola" on the IRT or LIRR (August Belmont had investments in the LIRR as well as having built the IRT). According to history books Belmont kept the "Minny" on a spur from the Lexington line directly beneath his Belmont Hotel. When he wanted to treat his friends & visiting diplomats to a trip to his famed Raceway on Long Island, he directed them to the basement of his hotel. There they would descend in an elevator and enter his secret station platform and treat them to wine/champagne, caviar, etc. aboard his private subway car that would travel to Brooklyn and at the Atlantic Ave. station would be switched over to the LIRR tracks (notice how even today the two stations are almost interconnected?). The "Minny" would continue on over the Flatbush line trackage through Jamacia and terminate on a spur that put Belmont and his guests right onto the racetrack grounds! Talk about "Door-to-Door" service!
Good luck with finding pictures, though. Let me know if you find anything.
Doug
Where WAS that mysterious spur? Is it still there?
Oh yeah, and does anyone know anything about the spur / pltforms for the Waldorff Astoria, other than they are on GCT's lower level, and were last used when the Alco PA was introduced?
The hotel spur entrance is still in place, blocked off by a steel pull-down curtain. It's off Track 1 of what is now the 42nd St. shuttle.
Philip, A couple of other facts:
- As was posted here recently ... at Atlantic Ave off the North end of the 2/3 there is a ROW, then a wall. Beyond that wall is the LIRR platforms (actually a passenger walking area in between the end of LIRR and the ROW to the 2/3).
- "Minny" was acquired by Shore Line at Branford (NH). I haven't seen it there, but there is a photo of it on page 59 of their "Ride Down Memory Lane" publ. They do have a CT Co private car that is in one of the barns most visitors go through.
Mr t__:^)
Philip, A couple of other facts:
- As was posted here recently ... at Atlantic Ave off the North end of the 2/3 there is a ROW, then a wall. Beyond that wall is the LIRR platforms (actually a passenger walking area in between the end of LIRR and the ROW to the 2/3).
- "Minny" was acquired by Shore Line at Branford (NH). I haven't seen it there, but there is a photo of it on page 59 of their "Ride Down Memory Lane" publ. They do have a CT Co private car that is in one of the barns most visitors go through.
- There also remains a door at the other end of the shuttle (that is right there in public view). It went to the Knickerbocker Hotel.
Mr t__:^)
The Mineola has been seen by me at BERA in 1988. It needs allot of work. Also, the knickerbocker Hotel has nothing to do with the history of Minnie. I do have photos of Minnie at BERA.
Minnie was at BERA in 1995. I have it on videotape. yes, it does need a great deal of work. But some of the stained glass was still in it.
I don't know if it's still at Branford. If it isn't, legend says Railway Preservation Corporation has it somewhere for possible restoration, assumed to be someplace in Brooklyn, but not on NYC Transit property.
--Mark
It's fascinating how "legends" are born! The Mineola is at Branford.
It is not being stored in a secret underground vault in Brooklyn :)
R.P.C. is not currently involved with the car.
The car does need a considerable amount of highly skilled wood
restoration work. It has been evaluated by several experts in
the field. The car was kept outside for many years before being
brought to the museum, where it was stabilized and an indoor storage
location was provided for it. This exposure to the elements caused
some interesting effects. There are some areas of the car that
are almost perfectly preserved, while other pieces of wood only a
few feet away have completely disintegrated.
Minnie was lucky to have survived at all, as I have read. Wasn't it found on someone's farm?
Minnie is believed to be the only car of its kind ever built. Connecticut Company's parlor car, #500, is one of perhaps fifty such parlor trolley cars which were ever built; I don't know if it's the sole survivor. It's in fairly decent shape, and it runs. I saw it being operated back in August of 1980.
Seashore has four examples of trolley parlor cars:
Boston Elevated 925 was designed for public charter. It is a 20 foot 'box' built in 1894, by JM Jones (I think). It operated in that fashion until about 1915, when it was converted to a wrecking tool car. It came to STM in the year I was born (1954), and at age 105 is still operable. Though it lost most of its appointments when converted to a work car, it still has a beautiful sign "Special Car" in stained glass at one end of the clerestory. The El also had a twin to this one, car 924, a small director's car, a director's SNOW PLOW (alledgedly) and Car 101 the private car of General Bancroft the El's president. 101 was said to have been equipped with third rail shoes for operation on the Rapid Transit Lines and may have found its way as far as the Bronx in its travels afield. (It wasn't equipped with slot plows so it couldn't make it into Manhattan except under tow). It ended its days as the 101 Diner on Route 1, amid allegations in the late 1940s press that the (Boston) MTA brass had a super trolley car for touring the system.
"City of Manchester" was built in 1898 by the Briggs Carriage Co. and was the property of the Manchester Street Ry. It was purchased for the private use of the company president but was also available for charter at the princely sum of $5 per Day. After retirement it was sold to a local family who converted it to a childrens playhouse. Seashore obtained the body in the late 1950s and immediately set about restoring it to operating condition. Much of the bevel plate glass in the car is original, and it is available for occasional use at the museum, especially for children's birthday parties!
The "Berkshire Hills" dates to the early 1900s and was the property of the Berkshire Street Railway of Western MA. Like the "City of Manchester", it was also devoted to both official use and charters. It too was retired at an early date and became a diner, which later was absorbed into a larger restaurant building. Known as the Coach Light Restaurant in latter years the building was vacant when a fire damaged the car in the early 1990s. After thirty years of pleading, the car was finally released to STM several years ago, and is back on the rails though restoration will be a major project thanks to the fire damage. The late Peter Charow devoted many years of effort to the car's acquisition.
Seashore's newest parlor car was built in 1931 by ACF for the Indiana RR, where it served as the president's private inspection car. After that system closed it was sold to Lehigh Valley Transit and served commuters from Allentown to Upper Darby as their car 1030. Still equipped with easychairs and love seats, it operated on a regular run and a premium fare was not charged. Later it was equipped with coach seats and served in that fashion until retired in 1953 at the end of service. STM member Tom Ruddell spent 20 summer vacations restoring the body and mounted a major fundraising effort to reproduce the seating and make the car operational. Like "City of Manchester" it is an occasional part of STMs demonstration fleet.
Thanks for the info! It's nice to know that other upper class parlor trolley cars were spared from the scrapper's torch.
How about a copy of your video tape. I believe it is still at BERA. I will check it out.
Is this entrance the same as one shown in Stan Fischler's book? The one in the book is a cable chamber (vault) outside the curve of the shuttle. It is crazy to think that high profile guests would enter the Mineola car at track level. The car never had steps. The real entrance was closed-in in the 1970's with concrete and was on a brench wall used as a platform. Did you ever see the entrance?
Don't believe what you see in books!!! Check your facts first.
ESPECIALLY when you're talking about Fischler's book. It takes small parts of urban legend and lots of repetitiveness and inaccurate facts and turns them into a book..
-Hank
Last summer we had a thread about the effect of a hurricane on the Coney Island Yard. I asked if there were any evacutation plans and got little response, but some said that the yard probably would not flood.
Since then I have found my Office of Emergency Management Map. A category one hurricane is expected to leave the area dry, but a direct hit by a category 2 or better storm would put the Coney Island Yard under 20+ feet of water as the Coney Island Creek backs up and Coney Island itself goes under.
I rode by there today while doing census local review (finding housing units the census bureau says aren't there for the 2000 count). The yards are at grade right next to the creek, at most a few feet above high tide level. Fifteen feet of water would not do much for half the B-division fleet.
So I ask again, are there plans to pull the trains to high ground in case of a hurricane? How about keeping the trains out of the tunnels in case water comes over the top and pours into the Montigue Tunnel from Whitehall Station, for example.
Police Commissioner/Mayor takes this stuff real serious. Hope there is a plan.
The best place thing for the Coney Island Yard to do is build a really tall at leat 15 Feet Jetty around the Coney ISland Complex and the N Train tracks. For the yeard it's self of the yard were hit by a hurricane Coney Island should not worry about the water it should be worried about the electricity that the water will conduct but that will never happen.
Well, if I thought that the CI yard would really be under threat from hurricane, I would run as many units out of the yard as possible to the Brighton embankment (laying them up four abreast), and also up to the unused "F" express tracks between 7th Avenue and Church and the Fourth Avenue express tracks. Storing them on box-girder elevated structure would be unwise. Whatever wouldn't fit on the above would be run out to whatever yard tracks/layup tracks were still available.
Wayne
As many slant R-40s as possible first, of course. Right, Wayne?
For sure! I can just see them riding the storm out, hunkered down in the safety of the Brighton Line cut.
Wayne
What about all of the old cars in the yard?? Like the R-10s,8's would you get them out before them?
Catagory 2 storms aren't that much; are you sure?
From accuweather's web site
Category 1 storms have winds of 74-95 miles per hour, making them the weakest of hurricanes. Even these storms can generate a storm surge of 4 or 5 feet above normal high tide.
Category 2 storms have winds of up to 110 miles per hour, and can push a storm surge of 6 to 8 feet.
Category 3 storm winds can reach 130 miles per hour. This is the cutoff for "major" hurricanes, with commensurate storm surge potential of 9 to 12 feet.
Category 4 winds can be as high as 155 miles per hour, and such a storm brings a 13 to 18 foot storm surge.
Category 5 storms, with winds greater than 155 miles per hour, are very rare. These monsters can have storm surges of over 20 feet. Only 2 such hurricanes have hit the U.S. this century - Camille in 1969 and Andrew in 1992.
I don't see how we can get 20' of water in CI Yard from a Cat2 storm. I can definately see 110mph wind gusts blowing trains off of elevated segments. When was the last time such a major storm hit the NY Metro area? Maybe our resident traffic and weather guy can give us some more clues....
-Hank
A direct hit at CI from the strongest part of a Cat 2 or stronger hurricane would be a very rare event. While hurricanes can be hundreds of miles in diamater, the area that has the strongest winds/storm surge is usually only a few tens of miles in length. For CI to be in the "target" of this area (which is just to the 'right' of the eye of the storm as it moves forward), the eye would have to pass just about right over Manhattan. That means that there will be substantial damage to a lot more than CI... and the city would have a lot more to worry about than the fleet at CI yard.
That being said, the metropolitan area as a whole is certainly at risk. Nobody knows if/when a Cat 2 or stronger storm will strike the area; despite what you might hear from (other) media, there is no way to predict the frequency, location, intensity or track of hurricanes before they form. These storms are less frequent in the NYC area, as the water temperature is colder... and hurricanes need a water temperature of 80F or higher to grow/remain strong. So a storm would have to be moving pretty fast, and right at NYC, to be a major threat in that regard. None-the-less, I agree wholeheartedly that the TA should have a congingency plan should NYC be placed in a hurricane watch area (which typically gives 24-72 hours lead time).
I hate to pass the buck, but my personal belief is that the NYC area is much more vulnerable to substantial infastructure damage from a strong earthquake than from a hurricane. And not just subways, but elevators, water mains, electrical, telephone... you name it... they're all going to fail when a big temblor strikes -- and it is not as unlikely as you would think in NYC. However, I'm a meteorologist, not a seismologist -- any rock jocks out there?
And that's transit and weather together...
[I hate to pass the buck, but my personal belief is that the NYC area is much more vulnerable to substantial infastructure damage from a strong earthquake than from a hurricane. And not just subways, but elevators, water mains, electrical, telephone... you name it... they're all going to fail when a big temblor strikes -- and it is not as unlikely as you would think in NYC.]
I vividly remember the scene, just about a year ago, when a large water main broke on Fifth Avenue near 20th Street. To say this was an enormous mess would be the understatement of the year. So the thought of an earthquake's doing similar damage at many locations is quite sobering indeed.
Fortunately, there are no live volcanoes or faults in the vicinity of NYC, so the chances of an earthquake in the Big Apple are pretty slim. San Francisco, on the other hand....
I read once that Hurricane Hazel struck NYC in 1954; there was no mention of subway havoc. I remember when Agnes dumped a ton of rain on the Northeast in 1972. The Daily News went so far as to label 1972 as a "Leak Year"
Actually, earthquakes can and do occur in the NYC area. You can read all about it from the National Earthquake Information Center:
"On August 10, 1884, an earthquake caused large cracks in walls at Amityville and Jamaica (intensity VII). The shock was felt strongly at New York City. In addition, 30 towns from Hartford, Connecticut, to West Chester, Pennsylvania, reported fallen bricks and cracked plaster. The total felt area was estimated at 181,000 square kilometers."
As I said before, I'm more worried about earthquakes wrecking havoc with NYC's infastructure than hurricanes. With hurricanes, we usually get a few day's warning. And while the strongest of hurricanes will cause severe damage regionally, a CAT 2 or 3 will have its greatest effect right on the coast - where early evacuation and preparation can mitigate damage.
Earthquakes occur with little or no warning, and with NYC's old undergound infastructure, the consequences could be devastating. My recollection is that a few years ago, there was a magazine article on exactly this subject (with scenarios as to what would and wouldn't survive), though I can't recall the reference. Maybe Larry can find out what the city's preparedness level is for this possibility?
I remember reading a story in the Daily News' Sunday magazine about 30 year ago about a fault line that runs diagonally across Manhattan. It enters on the west side around 125th Street and crosses through the Midtown area, leaving on the east side beneath the Canarsie line at 14th Street (I'm surprised the MTA has never used this excuse for only sending one train through the Canarsie tunnel at a time -- we don't want to disturb the fault line)
I'm assuming the line entered Brooklyn at some location, but I don't remeber anything in the story about that.
I dont remember details, but a science fiction story told of another fault near the wall street area.In the story Manhattan Island started sinking in the downtown area due to all the skyscrapers from 59th down. In the story what saved NYC was the 125th street fault which gave way and upper Manhattan was saved!
back to reality: the New York Magazine article told that the big problem will be liquefaction where the soil turns to mud and eveything sinks. Battery park City, WTC, Broadway/168th are such examples. Many NYC hospitals are located.
If I find the article I will post more details (I will not scan it due to copyright.)
Lets' get real here. Resources are not unlimited, and you have to make choices. The "earthquake advocates" make the threat out to be more than it is. We are not on a plate boundary, and thus have little risk of a "Great Earthquake." There is a risk of a smaller earthquate, which would do damage, but damage that could be repaired.
Meanwhile, we have a disaster which has already occurred -- it is so much more expensive to build in NYC than elsewhere than the cost of living is sky high, and when the economy grows real estate values explode because its so hard to expand the supply.
It's like the 3rd Water Tunnel and the Manhattan Bridge. Does any other city have a spare water tunnel, just in case one of the first two were lost? Meanwhile, at least part of the subway capacity for the Manhattan Bridge has been lost already, but no one is digging a new tunnel for that.
I agree with you on the bridge . I just was adding my knowledge on the thread. The only way we'll see a new subway tunnel is when gridlock results from the total closure of the bridge on a permanent basis. (of course if we get the olympics-I donot think so- then maybe the feds will build the tunnel like they did for Atlanta (and they even used our new bus fleet and NJT's new fleet beforw we got them!)
Just like it took the big blizzard for the LIRR and Metro Noerth to improver snow fighting it will take a disaster before the bridge is replaced (tunnel).
If I were worried about earthquakes I'd live in an area with no faults!
[Just like it took the big blizzard for the LIRR and Metro North to improve snow fighting it will take a disaster before the bridge is replaced (tunnel).]
If it only were so easy. After falling apart in the storm, it was relatively easy for the LIRR (Metro North had handled it much better) to improve its snow-fighting capabilities. But if/when the Manhattan Bridge is closed completely to subway service, even the least complicated relief plan (hookup to the F tunnel) would take years to complete. In the meantime, as we all can imagine, chaos would result.
(Manhattan Bridge failure -- years to replace). This is exactly why the bridge must be replaced before a shutdown occurs. The result will not be years of gridlock. It will be a "social adjustment scenario."
The commute to Manhattan would become hell, not only for those lines which now cross the bridge, but for other lines which absorb transferring passengers. But population turns over quickly, and those with jobs in Manhattan would avoid moving to Brooklyn. The loss of their spending power would lead to job losses on local commercial streets as well. Existing homeowners might try to sell and get out, but their property values would fall. Rents would fall further. The poor and jobless from elsehwhere would move to Brooklyn, depressing those areas further. Some housing would be abandoned, and population would fall.
All this would reduce subway and road traffic until a new equilibrium is reached, with Brooklyn a much poorer place. By the time a replacement for the bridge was built, it would no longer be needed. It is possible, however, that the negative social conditions created by a Manhattan Bridge related decline would set off a vicious circle, leading to more income and population declines than those caused by the Bridge alone.
This "social adjustement" scenario would be more intense if, at the same time the bridge is lost, the MTA completes improved commuter rail connections to Long Island and New Jersey. My house in Windsor Terrace is now worth far more than a house of comparable size on the south shore of Long Island, a big change from 20 years ago. The poverty rate is way down here. Lack of investment in Brooklyn, and lots of investment outside, could reverse that trend big time, as it did in the 1950s and 1960s with the construction of the highways and the decline of the transit system.
Of course, better transit to the suburbs and city at the same time would make the whole region better off. But the MTA and Port Authority seem determined to spend my money elsewhere.
Somehow I doubt that a earthquake strong enough to cause extensive infrastructure damage ie. collapsed subway tunnels and water mains will hit NYC. There have been a few small quakes from a few small faults, but without a real fault its hard to have a devastaing quake. Moreover, aside from that double decker highway, SF didn't have too much damage from Northridge. I didn't hear about aquaducts failing, or subway tunnels cracking. As far as I'm concerned, the threat of an earthquake is just one more reason to stay off the BQE.
re: Stay off the BQE ... Actually, some of the highways in the NYC area look like mines were dropped on them from the recent freeze and thaw cycles .....
--Mark
[Somehow I doubt that a earthquake strong enough to cause extensive infrastructure damage ie. collapsed subway tunnels and water mains will hit NYC. There have been a few small quakes from a few small faults, but without a real fault its hard to have a devastaing quake.]
Subway tunnels are probably safer, but many of the city's water mains are old and fragile. There have been a number of major breaks even in the absence of earthquakes.
The article was in New York Magazine. It said that PATH with cast iron tunnels would probably be knocked out as would sections around the WTC due to landfill. The Els would also be in peril due to length.
Now- even if the subways survive imagine how long it would take to repair a 50 ft watermain(one of the large water tunnels!) and to pump out the subway and repair damaged signals, turnstiles, etc.
A small earthquake would not be fun, but it would not be a catastrophic, economy wrecking failure either. Shut off mains and bottle water in many areas, even for a year, would not wreck the city's economy. The loss of an aquaduct or several subway tunnels, are a large share (10%+ of the housing or commercial stock), or a couple of key bridges (ie. the GW) which could take a decade to replace, might.
What you worry about is having the city so damaged that businesses flee, tax revenues fall, and the city is abandoned rather than rebuilt. On that score, I'm more worried about a hurricane or the loss of half the subway fleet. I have little confidence that the rest of the country would kick in with disaster relief, they way they do for other places. The politics are too anti-NY.
Just to clarify, you did say LIVE faults, ie, active ones. There are several faults in the NY Metro area, including one that runs almost directly beneath 125st.
-Hank
[Just to clarify, you did say LIVE faults, ie, active ones. There are several faults in the NY Metro area, including one that runs almost directly beneath 125st.]
This fault line is at least partially responsible for the decision by the IRT's builders to send what's now the 1/9 line across 125th Street on a viaduct.
Yes, I did say live, such as the San Andreas Fault in California.
(Storm surge). The hurricane advocates have been saying that the flood effect of a hurricane on NYC would be exaggerated because of the shape of the shoreline, leading to a much stronger surge. But I may be misinterpreting the map, and at a category 2 the Coney Island yard may be flooeded, but not by 10 feet.
The article said a hurricane a century ago put Coney Island under water, cut the Rockaways in half, and cut Manhattan Beach off from the rest of Coney Island. It is little-remembered because the area was undeveloped at the time. The 1938 (I think) hurricane was the strongest to hit the Metro area, but NYC took the weaker west side while the East End of Long Island took the brunt.
One group which is taking the threat seriously is insurance companies. One dropped me and another wants to jack up the rate and put a $10,000 deductible on in case of a hurricane. And my house sits atop the terminal morraine.
Per the posting by Erik, I checked the original Pullman Standard Work Manual for the R-46. Before overhaul, the R-46 had a full service Brake Cyl. Pres. of 95 +/- 2 PSI. This contrasts sharply with the current 68 PSI on the same car after overhaul. As I suspected, however, the braking efforts were virtually identical indicating that the size of the TBU cylinder and the 'mechanical advantage' of the TBU itself allowed the NYAB Tread Brake Unit to operate at a lower Brake Cyl. Pressure. This is not unusual when you consider that the brake cylinder pressure of a clasp-type brake (like the R-32) is just 32 PSI.
This also raises an interesting point. If the inshot valve permits 5 PSI into the brake cylinder on dynamic brake, on the R-32 this would be roughly 16% of a full service brake, while on a post overhaul R-46 it would be just 7% of a full service brake. On a pre-overhaul R-46 it would have been just been 5% of a full service brake. Clearly, based on this comparrison, inshot would have a varying effect on braking depending on the contract it was used on. If there was such varience in the effect of the inshot on braking, how can the effect of it's elimination be judged qualitatively?
Jeff or Erik?
Well, Steve, it is my *opinion*, which I detailed in an earlier
posting, that the recent removal of the inshot valve would NOT
have had any significant effect on stopping distances. In other
words, I agree with you. I'm not sure what the reason for removal
was...something to do with squealing wheels? If it had been my
call, I probably would have not ordered that the inshots be removed
altogether. There's an adjusting screw, and maybe I would have
experimented with taking the inshot pressure down 50% first.
You raise an interesting point: because of the varying relationship
between brake cylinder pressure and braking effort, 5 psi means
different things to different equipment. Again, there is that
adjustment on the inshot valve, but I've never seen any instructions
that say anything other than "set it to 3-5 psi". Don't calculate
the amount of braking effort produced by inshot pressure as a straight
percentage of full service BCP however, because the equation relating
the two would probably take the form e=kp-c, where e is braking effort, p is pressure, and p and c are constants. c represents the
force needed to overcome the brake return spring and friction losses
in the brake rigging.
This also, indirectly, brings me back to another point. One can't
make valid comparisons of braking performance based on single isolated
numbers such as brake cylinder pressure or rate of retardation at
one particular speed, load and brake call.
Exactly, and this is the point I've been trying to make all along. I hope that some of the 'Nay-Sayers' see the light.
Steve:
I put a related question in the other thread, you may want to give it a look.
Jeff explains it rather nicely, however the both of you seem to be moving away from my original thoughts. See inshot held the shoes at the ready so to speak, and as I detailed in an earlier posting, this is as I have seen on occasion, critical when going from service to emergency braking in a panic situation. Thank you for the answers to my R46 question, Steve, I never workred on R46's or with NYAB @ NYCT, only on the Railroads.
And for the actual decel rates, when I did Acceptance on the R40's I saw the data, even then they didn' stop as good as they did before GOH. So I have to disagree with anyone who says the trains stop the same.
I disagree with you. Whether an R-46 enters the wall at 189 Street or the revenue collector gets rear ended the "G" force will always be the same. Just look at 1437. 55 to zero in a few seconds is great stopping power. God bless the Hall of Shame!
Now to publicly restate my privately made pledge. The discussion of mechanical defects, engineering failures and cover-ups are serious subjects and some very irresponsible charges have been made by people like Mr. Damage, who purport to be NYCT employees, knowledgable about the subject or both. However, I take exception to the fact that Mr. Damage and others make these irresponsible charges under a nom de plume. If they have the courage of their conviction, or some special legitimate knowledge, then they should be willing to stand tall and say what they want to say and be prepared to defend it. If you have to hide behind a rediculous nickname and refuse to post an E-Mail address, I will no longer consider your argument worthy of a response.
Don't forget that making any kind of charges in a public forum, such as Subtalk, can lead to headaches for unintended personnel. Please don't put Steve or anyone corresponding here in a position to be sued or used as a witness in a lawsuit or criminal case evolving from an incident on a train. Talking about how it works is fine, but getting into the details of incidents, and individuals actions can make things dicey.
Yeah but don't forget half of it kept going 100 feet down the track with its nose almost at the 14th Street station entrance. The impact was sidewise (just ahead of the #3 door) and the rear half of it got tangled up in #1440's face. See the photo. The NY Newsday front page photo shows this angle even better. A truly unfortunate and tragic incident.
Wayne
Ah, welcome back Erik. Can you clarify exactly what you saw
at Elmhurst Ave? You said the train was stopped in the station.
Did you actually mean that your train was pulling out of the
station and while you were making your platform observation you
saw that automatic stay clear after the train passed it?
The point that I (& Steve) was trying to make about this incident
is that even if you did witness a bona-fide false clear, that
neither proves nor disproves anything about the signal at Steinway
St. that was in question in the other incident. It does disprove
the hypothesis "a false clear is impossible in the NYCT signal
system". But, I don't think anyone was advancing that hypothesis.
We know that false clears do happen, they are very rare, and they
can usually be attributed to vandalism or poor signal maintenance.
What happened at Steinway is another matter. I know the official
account was that the m/m claimed the signal was green, I don't
know what the c/r's testimony was, and the official conclusion was
that the signal was red but the train was so close to the IJ that
it effectively keyed by without the m/m being aware of it. Any other
facts to the contrary are certainly interesting.
You are right -- the TA does seem to blame the person in the field
where possible. I've heard of train crews being taken out of
service, forced to take a BAT, and harassed over something that clearly could not have possibly been their fault. Again, my
theory is that it is easier to fault "one bad apple" in the system
than to face up to what could be more serious deep-running systemic
problems.
OPTO: Bad news, IMHO. If I were a motorman, I would not want to
go out over the road alone. I realize the economics, but maybe this
is the point where you reach the price/safety crossover and stop
economizing.
Inshot valves: Erik's argument is, essentially, with the removal of
the inshot valves, braking response in emergency is poorer. He cites
two main factors: the pre-heat of the brake shoes that occurs with
the inshot feature, and the time required to charge the brake cylinders with whatever the full-service BCP is on the car in question, as well as the lost motion in the brake shoes.
I would counter that while these are all valid points, the net
result on actual stopping distances is probably negligible.
First, composite brake shoes do not have a high dependence on
operating temperature. Second, the actual time required to charge
the brake cylinders is small...I could get out the textbooks and
compute the flow rate in 60 feet of 1" pipe, but I'd guess it is
about 1/10 of a second. Third, automatic slack adjusters minimize
brake shoe lost motion.
My overall estimate is that it takes about 1/4 of a second to
get the tread brakes applied from full release, and I suggested
a static test to confirm this.
As I said in an earlier post, if I had been the decision-maker, I
would have probably not removed the valves. But I don't think it
was the safety disaster Erik makes it out to be. Looking at
overall emergency stop distances from various speeds and comparing
as-delivered performance with current numbers might be an interesting
exercise though.
Jeff, let me thank you for restating my position to Erik. However, let me correct you about the 'low man on the totem pole' hypothesis that Erik and others think is prevalent in the TA. In RTO and to some extent DCE, Supervisors and managers are being penalized for significant failures of their subordinates. There was recently a rash of related problems of trains leaving Stillwell yard. The Manager was held responsible for failing to correct the deficiencies. Line managers are penalized for signal run-thru's and wrong routes. Thoese responsible for yards are held responsible for switch run-thru's and derailments. In DCE, if there is a pre-mature failure (usually within 10 days or 1,000 miles of inspection) the supervisor and the car inspector are being sanctioned. While an hourly employee's sanctiions usually amount to a possible suspension or optional 30% fine, Supervisors and managers are sometimes subject to the same, poor performance ratings which can translate into no raises or possible demotion.
The signal in question was first observed as I was entering the station, and then again after we stopped, and remained yellow, the whole time.(It has no green aspect) And as for my figures being slightly off and the response time not being as long as I say for the brake shoes to be effective, I invite any one who reads this to come aboard my train, and I will gladly demonstrate all of the deficiencies that I have posted before. The manuals and drawings all may say one thing, however the ral world is proving to be somewhat different than expected.
E-mail me at ERIK6398@webtv.net, and I'll arrange a demonstration.
I sent you an E-Mail on this subject with a realistic answer to your questions.
Regarding the Steinway St. incident:
The train operator involved, Steven Sales, sued and won reinstatement as a train operator, in large part because of heavy-handed tactics employed by the Transit Authority to bolster their case against Mr. Sales.
The TA attempted to cover up testimony by the conductor on the train, and by a cop who was on the platform, who verified Mr. Sales' account.
Members of the Labor Relations department were found to have threatened retaliation against Mr. Sales if he went public with his side of the story. Mr. Sales subsequently told his story to a reporter for NY1 news.
Finally, it was discovered that the car stop marker at Steinway St. had been moved back 20 feet before the NTSB had arrived to conduct their investigation, in order that the TA could bolster their case against Mr. Sales.
I have one question though- Why is this guy's name on the CONDUCTOR'S daily assignment sheets for a platform job all the time? Is he restricted? Because if what your saying is true, (I'm not saying I don't belive you. I do) then what else are those bas%$# covering up?
the IRT R110 is back on the road. Today I was on the Bronx 2/5 and saw it going Bronx Bound on the center track. I get to E 180 and it is on the track there waiting with many "suits" (thanks to Thurston for the term) on board and at platform side.The train operators were complaining about the single controller handle. When I could get a word in I was told ity is being tested again. When the train passed me at least one car had new or rebuilt/serviced/overhauled trucks.
The r110-a I believe had a problem with their trucks cracking. Strange, these heavy outboard bearing trucks that are used in Japan
had problems here while the lightweight inboard bearing trucks on the r110-b had no problems at all.
Maybe IRT lines are harder on the equipment?
Also, I know the NYCTA has been playing with inboard bearings again, but does anyone know if they are also testing radial trucks?
Also, does anyone have a photo of the R-46's inboard trucks? I was kinda curious as to what they look like.
FWIW, I've heard the LIRR has been having problems with their electric fleet trucks cracking.
The R-46 Rockwell truck is on display at the Transit Museum on the platform. The motors however have been removed. These trucks were defective from the start. The NYCTA was the only agency to ever use these trucks, and it was found in an investigation that numerous officials in the TA were paid to overlook the defects.
For more information about the problems with the Rockwell trucks, in any library with a New York Times collection, check out the year 1979 and 1980. In the section New York / transit, the articles with the stories about cracking problems are in bold text and are easy to spot.
How long has that truck been at the museum? I don't ever remember seeing it there.
Nor do I. I know they had an early R series, and a the current one, but I never remember seeing the rockwell one, unless it's a new (as in last 6 months) addition...
There were three trucks on display. However, there was no sign for the Rockwell trucks.
One of the trucks came from an R-1/9. You can plainly see the spur-cut bull and pinion gears which gave those cars their characteristic moaning and groaning as they accelerated. The other truck which I've seen came from an R-10. On it, you can see the helical-cut bull and pinion gears which resulted in much quieter operation.
Easier than that....it's an arch-bar truck. All cars after the R10 have cast trucks. Big, heavy monster, one piece cast frame. The arch-bar truck is several pieces bolted/welded together. It's been said that this was the one weak point of the early cars.
-Hank
What was(is) the last anyone saw of 110B? Is it running? and if so,WHERE???
I saw it on the C last October. It's down to 6 active cars; the other three are being cannibalized for parts.
Wouldn't that be the R110B?
I believe you're right. Oops!
Anyone ever see or read the book 'Subway Art' My opinion of it is that it glorified the vandals, but I'd like to see some other opinions.
-Hank
I have the book. I bought it back in 1986, after my first trip to
New York City. A lot of the "artwork" is very impressive. I just
can't figure out why the vandals would pick subway trains to use as
their canvas. Why not freight train cars? Also, if they really wanted
to, they could make a lot of money for their talents, by (legally)
painting murals, and pictures to sell.
Ok, I don't think I've ever seen this discussed in here before, so
forgive me if it's sacrilegious... :)
What would it take to get a faster computer for subtalk? Is it a
windows thing that could be made 50x faster for around $400?
Or could a few of us pool our resources and find something between
us so that the message index doesn't take 2 minutes to load?
Then there's always the PBS-style pledge drive! :D
Sorry guys. It's not a windows thing. Although a nice fast PC would run Unix and could host this I'm not about to go out and buy it. The site costs me over $1000/year in ISP costs alone-- servers this big don't get a free ride for long. It runs on an old Sun workstation and isn't powerful enough to handle the load.
That being said, look around the site. Notice- no advertising, no commercials, no fancy proprietary plugins, etc. This is done from my own pocket and with a little assistance from some others.
Now, if someone wanted to hand me a Sun Ultra-class machine like an Ultra-1 I wouldn't turn it down. Remotely administrating a Linux machine is not something I'm going to try to do, however.
I'm sorry the site is slow but really, if it bothers you so much, go visit our competition. :-)
-Dave
Dave,
Hmm, not a cheap thing to run. And kudos for the lack of webjunk.
I guess I was thinking more along the lines of voluntary donations.
Heck, if all of us regulars gave $10, you'd have...well, over time,
maybe something. :)
-Lee
Dave,
I think you have done a great job with the site.
Just wanted to let you know you are appreciated.
I'll second that. I truly feel as though I never left the East Coast, thanks to this website. Let's appreciate it for what it is.
Dave,
Not to worry - I know of the foibles of Unix. The HP Server we installed at our shop is running UnixWare 7.0.1 - the R-16 of operating systems. We have download and applied so many patches it looks like the exterior of a Redbird R26. We have many print server issues to deal with, plus a number of bottlenecking problems with our older Wyse 30-35-60 terminals. All the Net Terminals run great.
Only problem is - less than half of our users have them.
What's the issue with remote administration - I'm just curious. (We have two Linux boxes at the shop as well)
In the meantime, no complaints here. Keep on keepin' on!
Wayne
My web page is served on the R-32 of computers - a DEC Vax. Running VMS even. We average 80+days between crashes, even with the heavy loads / abuse you'd expect in a university setting. Of course, the thing cost $500,000, so I wouldn't take anything less. The bad thing is this though: the school is looking to get rid of the machine, which is bad because then expected replacement(Win NT) will never handle the load...
too many students / professors can't stand the VMS operating system, which contains dandy's like this:
To clear the screen you type: TYPE/PAGE NL:
To change directories: SET DEFAULT disk_name:[directory.subdirectory} etc...
My account is DSK_STUDENT:[NASADOWSK].
You get used to it, really, you do. I personally love thing (wrote my entire web page on it!), but everyone else hates it...
Hahahah...VMS....Wow....I used to administer that a long time
ago. Of course, no real VMS guru would type SET DEFAULT...you'd
certainly abbreviate that SET DEF, and us UNIX types used to make
a bunch of system-installed aliases so CD worked. Of course, VMS
told you about an invalid directory path later, when you tried to
use it, rather than when you issued the command.
To David: is this web server cpu-bound, io-bound, or is part of the
"slowness" network latency and packet loss?
I'm no VMS guru, I just happen to be the college student who uses it. Yes, probbably the ONLY student here who uses it. There is something to be said for an IRC client that doesn't take you down when it crashes....
That and the dorm room network hates Macintoshes and won't let them connect out every other 10 minutes. They say this is a problem with my machine, even though everyone else with a mac has it to. Computer services swears Windows machines don't have this problem - go figure..
Oh yeah, ever run Decwindows? My sysop hates when I do that :)
DecWindows? No, but I was SysOp on a Dec PDP-10 while in high school. My project/programmer number (PPN) was [10,1]. I also learned FORTRAN IV on a machine at Adelphi that used punch cards. No, I'm not that old, but having these computer memories makes me old enough to have ridden R1-9s and Standards before they were retired!
Computers have taken an incredible leap forward... but we miss our nostalgia trains, don't we?
My first job in 1984 at IBM was to replace an application submitted with punched cards!
I learned PL/I on a Cyber something-or-other, also using punched cards as input. Woe unto you if you dropped the deck and didn't number the cards! I had to learn to type on one of those punched card machines. Yikes!
--Mark
Speaking of legacy computers, maybe a year ago I came across some tidbit concerning a man who did all the word processing for his home-based business (I think it was insurance, not sure) using an Apple Lisa. He still had the original software suite and claimed to be satisfied with his system. Dunno what kind of printer he was able to use.
For those who haven't heard, the Lisa was the very first computer that used icons. Apple naturally had big expectations. The Lisa came out in 1983 or thereabouts, but its nearly $10,000 price rendered it a huge dud in the marketplace. What few sales Apple was able to make dried up to nothing when the Mac came out a year later. Eventually, Apple sold its inventory to a reseller in Utah for practically nothing; the reseller had no more luck and ended up burying thousands of Lisas in a garbage dump.
The Lisa is a prized collectable now. I've seen screenshots of them, they sure look interesting. BTW, they *can* run Macintosh software with a few minor mods (installing a thing on the CRT and swapping a chip)
My shrink used to use a Kaypro II until about 2 years ago.
In elementry school, we used Comodore Pets...
My first computer was a TI99/4A...I learned in school first on Tandy Model I's, then Model 3's, 4's and finally the CoCo. Intermediate school was Apple II, II+, IIe. High School was the IIe and IIgs, and then up to a Tandy 1000. Then I started building 486-based machines in a repair class. I'm managed to use CUNY's old VM system, (hated it) Macitosh, PowerPC 6500, Atari 800, Coleco's ADAM, and the Commode-Door Vic-20 (no lowercase!) By far, the worst was that ADAM. At home, I started with the TI and moved up through the Apple line with a IIe, //c, //c+, and finally inherited a 286-based machine from my fathers office (his gift to me for teaching him to use it after he got an upgrade to a 386) I've upgraded it piece by piece to a Pentium class machine, and that's why I don't own a car. And just to keep this a tiny bit on-topic, I played every RR simulator game I could lay my hands on, from RR Tycoon to A-Train to RR Tycoon II.
-Hank
my pc memories: I started with an Atari 800XL and soon hit a wall with only 64K (064!). I bought the new 800SE with 128K and used the old opne at church to automate my sunday school records. That lasted two months before I twinned my XE. I ran a clone of lotus 1-2-3, Syncalc taht could even share data with Lotus! and a database- SynFile that could handle d-base! and a graphing program-- syn=graph. I ran at the blistering spped of 4.77mHz.I even outran a min-computer network!
then came Bill Gates with MS-DOS and "forced" software makers to abandon first first the 8 bit 65C02 models, then the Apple II (I never had one), then the Atari ST (16 bit machine-never owned one.)
FInally I went to MS-DOS and now windows (Gates "forced" me to windows.I remember the Atari had a menu for DOS and Gates pushed the command line and belittling a GUI such as Diamond DOS,(that was before windows! )
my pc memories: I started with an Atari 800XL and soon hit a wall with only 64K (064!). I bought the new 800XE with 128K and used the old opne at church to automate my sunday school records. That lasted two months before I twinned my XE. I ran a clone of lotus 1-2-3, Syncalc taht could even share data with Lotus! and a database- SynFile that could handle d-base! and a graphing program-- syn=graph. I ran at the blistering spped of 4.77mHz.I even outran a min-computer network!
then came Bill Gates with MS-DOS and "forced" software makers to abandon first first the 8 bit 65C02 models, then the Apple II (I never had one), then the Atari ST (16 bit machine-never owned one.)
FInally I went to MS-DOS and now windows (Gates "forced" me to windows.I remember the Atari had a menu for DOS and Gates pushed the command line and belittling a GUI such as Diamond DOS,(that was before windows! )
[The Lisa is a prized collectable now. I've seen screenshots of them, they sure look interesting. BTW, they *can* run Macintosh software with a few minor mods (installing a thing on the CRT and swapping a chip)]
You know, you're onto something there. After I made my first posting about the Lisa, I checked eBay to see if any of them were being offered. Lo and behold, there was one out to bid (the less-valauble second generation, for that matter) and the bidding was up to $425. Heck, a little bit higher and the price will be close to that of a *new* Pentium ... though still a wee bit less than the $5,000 or so it originally cost :-)
I was helping someone at work with a personal computer they had brought back from the dead. How about this? An IBM-PS2 55-30 (Canadian Model) 386SX/16, 1MB RAM (Expandable to 2MB) a 40MB HDD, and a MCA bus. (SEE? a BUS! We're still talkin' transit :) Base Price? $5,049! That was 1987. Now, the same money will buy a dual PII NT-Server.
-Hank
Back in 1982, 1983 and 1984 I worked at a place that used punched cards and a Honeywell GCOS 3.0 mainframe! THIS was the BMT Gate Car of computers, no doubt. After having dropped the General Ledger update card deck (600 cards) for what seemed like the 1,000th time,
our MIS director got Honeywell in to install some patches that would allow us to use catalogued procedures on disk and a rudimentary editor. We thought we were on top of the world! Next year, PC's came out and three years later I got my first (still have it) - a 286 12mhz with a 42MB Priam hard drive, 1.2MB memory (was an option) and an amber monochrome monitor. I thought I died and went to heaven until the color PCs came out - THEN the 286 became a 386 (which it still is). The old HD is gone, it has a 420MB drive in it. I use it for storage and plan to keep it as an antique. Current machine is good but obsolete - 200Mhz Pentium II MMX w/64MB ram.
Wayne
Wow, talk about drifting off the SubTalk scope, after David posted
that stern warning at the top of the page :) If you want to
take this "offline" I'll tell you some debugging steps you can
use to isolate the problem with the Mac. I'm one of the "systems
folks", though not at your university :)
P.S. Yes, I've run DecWindows/VAX Workstation Software.
P.P.S. I think I owe you a set of drawings on some ancient
Westinghouse turret control groups.
SubTalk is almost entirely CPU bound - processing and sorting the threads on the index page and message followup screens. Next biggest culprit would be the fact that there isn't enough memory (only 64Mb) and the motherboard can't take more. I'm working on some things to alliviate this a little (SubTalk will probably move to a different server that is of higher capacity.)
Hmmm, lots and lots of MOSFETs, resistors, and all sorts of other neat electronic stuff. Verrrrrry interesting....
Mosfets??? What the heck is a Mosfet? :)
I have 8 or 9 radios in my room now.
1 is even solid state :)
The backdrop is a theramin from the 1930's That's the thing that makes monster movie music effects I think...
The tubes are: 6K8 (3 of them), 5V4, 6F6, 6B8, and VR150
I have the actual schematic on my machine BTW, I think it came from an article written by Robert Moog years ago. Anyway, I "needed" a backdrop and it was the only thing I had handy :)
Dave, I'll add my vote of thanks for what you do for us ;-)
I enjoy this site & look forward to logging in !
P.S. It is very interesting to note that many of us have similar back grounds & interests (computer sys opns, love of things that roll underground ... could it be that because most computer shops end up in the basement that these two are a natural fit ... nah B-)
Mr t__:^)
Since I have a fast univeristy Ethernet connection I can tell the site is kind of slow, however I don't find it a problem. I'll add this is by far the most amazing web site I have ever seen. There is so much good info here and there are not banners or junk like that.
[Since I have a fast univeristy Ethernet connection I can tell the site is kind of slow, however I don't find it a problem. I'll add this is by far the most amazing web site I have ever seen. There is so much good info here and there are not banners or junk like that.]
You've got it right. And there are two other things to consider:
1) Because Subtalk is a strictly noncommercial site, we should be patient when it sometimes takes a while to load. It shouldn't be held to the same standards as a big corporation's site. Now, a slow corporate site - the NY Times and Bloomberg financial news are prime examples - is a lot harder to tolerate.
2) Let's all the eternally thankful that Dave didn't put Subtalk on Geocities!!
Some of us have pledged funds, but have yet to come through (guilty)
-Hank
Sometimes the ambulance chasers have a point. Ie. yesterday a woman was walking under the elevated A to Lefferts when glass fell off a subway car (presumably from a window) and hit her. She is in critical condition. How the hell did that happen?
That window was the motorman's window (or at least the window of a motorman's cab]. From what I hear, the window seemed to just pop out.
Oh, and by the way -- it was an R-44. Any shocked faces?
Is it too late to sue Pullman again?
Actually, since it was an A train it would be St.Louis Car Co. (R-38 or R-44). As to the TA being negligent, one should not make assumptions until the criminal investigation has been concluded.
Actually, could be MKCO (the overhaulers of the R32s) too - there has been more than one train of R32s running round on the "A" lately, although I would bet it was an R44 that lost its window. Those R44s - I call 'em SRRs - Shake Rattle and Roll. I was one one last year, #5210 I think; we were clanking along St.Nicholas Avenue above 125th Street and suddenly the plastic cover over the light above the door popped out - right onto the head of a surprised passenger! It was not the original light cover (it looked like a handmade replacement made of white plastic). The guy whose head it fell onto was not hurt, he merely laughed and kicked it under the seat.
It's not that I dislike R44s - they are stylish trains, but some of them sound like they are shaking apart at the seams.
BTW Steve- (these are at Jamaica Yard) - I saw #3418 on the "E" last Sat. but did not catch his mate. Do you know which car it is paired with (it's not #3419 - she is with #3740). It is either #3559 or #3863, I think. If I can get this unit # then I complete the Odd Couples list at 25 pairs. (#3904 is the other odd car out).
thanks,
Wayne
Speaking of R44 shaking apart at the seams, most of the GOH cars on the SIR have diagonal cracks from the top of the door motor cover panels to the door frame and window frame. On most of the MK Rebuilds I've seen, the walls were cut at this location.
-Hank
Seems like most transit cognoscenti do not like the R44/R46, but they are nice for the passengers. I'm glad they are on the F. However, I've heard them called the Cadillacs of the fleet, and I guess they are like Cadillacs in the 1970s -- plush, but unreliable.
The fake wood is a little tacky, but the orange/cream/tan/brown color scheme is better than gray benches. The interiors of some cars make you fell like you are riding in steerage while the first class passenger ride in cars and cabs above.
(plush, but unreliable.)
Must take issue with that description. When new the R-46 had airbag suspension and performed at about 5,000 MDBF. The airbag suspension, which gave te cars a really plush ride, are gone but so is the 5,000 MDBF. (Actually, pre-overhaul R-46 were up to 16,000 miles)
Since overhaul, the cars are performing at about 80,000 miles MDBF. The faux wood panels were kept over from the original car although they are now made of formica over 1 1/4" ply to reduce vandalism. The marlite walls are also far more durable than the stainless walls on the R-68/68A. By far, the R-46 is the best looking car in the fleet.
As for performance, the R-46 is the largest fleet by assignment in the NYCT system. All 752 cars reside in the same location. The emense size of the fleet make all performance improvements slow in showing results. But there will be results and the R-46 will break the 90,000 mile barrier.
Ah, so there is another fan of the R46. What, then, will the new cars look like? Will they have earth tones and marlite walls, or gray benches and stainless steel? Hey, the 1970s are back.
Yeah, have you seen That 70s Show? And back in the 70s, we were waxing nostalgia for the 50s.
The 70s may be back in terms of the R-46s, but at least the graffiti is gone. I personally don't dislike the R-46s; it would just be nice if you could see through that full-width cab. Just my opinion...
(See through cabs) We've had this discussion before -- why not have clear glass so customers can see out the front? Some train operators on Subtalk said they don't want to have people looking over their shoulder while they work -- that was the last comment in thread. Well, what about bus operators? They don't seem to be demanding pillboxes to isolate them from public view.
I'd like to see three glass panels -- one on the door, and one on each side, with the seats removed to make more room for more people to look out. The center panel should be as deep as on the R40, so little kids could look out too. Why not dim the lights in front of the first set of doors too, to cut down on glare.
I don't think that most operators object to "People looking over their shoulder while they work". The fact is that when the door is open or the glass is clear, the glare in the vision glass (windshield) make seeing clearly, extremely difficult. Even using the polarized glass does not eliminate the problem completely.
I personally like some of the shields on the R-44s I encounter. Instead of a sheet of tinted/painted glass it is a piece of peach colored fiberglass with a 2 inch diameter hole carved in it. No need for paint to fade like some of the R-46s that those @#$#%$^$@ car inspectors paint a thin film of black paint over. No need to get reinstructed by TSSs for placing newspapers over them. NO GLARE on them.
I think a good compromise has been found here in Boston. On the Red Line 1800-series cars, for example, there is a full-width cab. The cab door, in the center, is solid. There is a window on the right side, behind the operator, with a curtain which is usually closed to prevent glare (though often you can peek through the edge to see the controls :-) On the left side is a large window between the passenger compartment and the cab compartment, and a similarly placed window between the cab compartment and the outside. This allows good viewing out the front of the train from the front-left corner (and first seat).
The Blue Line 0600-series cars have a similar arrangement, and since they run OPTO, the front left window also allows the operator to look into the first car while operating the left-side doors.
Granted this is not the same as standing at the storm door on a Slant-40, but it's better than no railfan window at all!
Sounds like the current PATH cars, except PATH lacks a full width cab.
-Hank
For the operating crews, the difference between the R44 & R46 is comparable to the difference between the darkness and the light of 12 midnite to 12 noon. First, the R46 cab door slides open, the R44 door pushes open making the cab even smaller than what it actually is. Also, the reverser key on the R44 is right in your gut. If you are even the slightest bit portly, you are squeezed into the R44 seat behind the console; if you have long legs, they are squeezed in as well. Not to mention the hump you have to straddle near your knees. On the R46, there is plenty of leg & gut room, with the reverser slot at the left side of the master controller. The R46 cab is like that of a luxury car, while the cab of the R44 cab can best be described like a VW. The similarities of the two car classes ends in the cab.
Of course the original design of the R-46 was superior to the R-44 in many ways. However, overhaul hurt the R-44 cab ammenities more than it did the R-46. The original R-44/46 master controller was flat and therefore afforded lots of knee-room underneath. When the Master controller was changed during overhaul, it had a pneumatic section which the old master controller did not have, hence the lack of knee room. The seat on the R-44 is a vast improvement over one of the original proposal by one of the M&K engineers. That 'seat' was comprised of a knee rest and back rest only and the operator would have been forced to operate either standing or kneeling (I was told that this is done in Australia). One thing that is lacking on the R-44/R-46 cab door is a vent similar to the ones incorporated on the R-68/68a. That vent provides for sufficient air flow so the operator doesn't need to keep a shoe paddle in the door during the hot weather,.
The R-44's were overhauled twice. The first time was in 1984 when the original P-wire controller that was also used on the R-46 was replaced with the current Westcode controller which did have the pneumatic section that took leg room away from the motorman. However, the R-44's still performed poorly after this overhaul.
The second overhaul took place between 1990-1991 and was done by both MK and the TA. However, the overhaul mainly repaired deficiencies in the car structure, and reconditioned the equipment and corrected other problems that the cars had.
I pleaded with the manager in charge of the R46 overhaul to
consider keeping the linear controller. Oh well. It
was the most comfortable controller in the fleet, although it
made it a bit awkward to operate standing. Of course it had
the fatal flaw (which the FRA would probably have been concerned
about if they were concerned about the TA) that should the
operator pass out and fall face-down onto the console, the tendency
would be for the controller to be pushed forward to the full power
position and possibly the spring-loaded rotating handle would be
obstructed from returning to the deadman position.
In the incident where car #1054 hit the wall at 179th Street, the master controller was found in a power position (I have photos indicating such). Although it was presumed that he died before hand, the motorman obviously pushed the handle up into power (on a down grade). Standing and operating the R-44 or R-46 was not awkward as it was prohibited by School Car Instruction to stand while operating the R-44 or 46 except with the hostler(The only such restricted cars).
Thats why all trains should have CONDUCTORS on board!!!!!!!!!
Not knowing the full situation Steve described, I can't judge whether a conductor could have responded to prevent that wreck. But from a point ov view of public safety, I agree that OPTO, with the exception, possibly, of two car trains, does not foster safety. As well as a backup in a dangerous situation, the conductor represents another pair of eyes and a helping hand in case an emergency arises between stations. The same goes for being able to see completely through a train from a conductor's position (one area where Boston scores higher than NYC in my view).
I can't answer the R-32 question off the top of my head.
The car involved in the tragic incident was an R-38 (car #4076).
Gee, I wonder if the R-16s ever had a problem with windows falling out... Let's see, their doors wouldn't open, controller problems, etc., etc.
The inside cab door windows on the R-44s aren't immune to popping out, either. I saw that happen once.
According to the news reports this was vandalism- probably some anti-social person who wanted to get some "kicks" (an emotionally disturbed person I might add.)
Short of bars over all windows there is very little that can be done to totally prevent vandalism.
I sympathize with the victim and family but the TA can not prevent random vandalism!
what next- wee'll get sued by rat lovers for killing their rats- some on!
***disclaimer: While I am an employee of NYCT this post is my personal opinion and not that of MTA or NYCT***
Here's the story that ran today on WCBS regarding the new machines, as reported by my colleague Vicki Allen:
"STARTING MONDAY - NEW YORK CITY TRANSIT PRESIDENT LAWRENCE REUTER SAYS RIDERS CAN TRY OUT THE NEW METROCARD VENDING MACHINES AT EITHER THE 59TH STREET COLUMBUS CIRCLE STATION OR AT 68TH AND LEX. THESE STAINLESS STEEL MACHINES WHICH RESEMBLE A LARGE ATM CAN HANDLE
TRANSACTIONS IN 8 LANGUAGES INCLUDING FRENCH, SPANISH, KOREAN AND JAPANESE AND THEY'LL SELL YOU ALL TYPES OF METRO CARDS. THAT INCLUDES THE NEW 1 DAY FUN PASS OR A 30 DAY UNLIMITED RIDE CARD. OVER THE
NEXT YEAR AND A HALF THE MTA PLANS TO INSTALL A-THOUSAND METRO CARD VENDING MACHINES IN 185 OF THE LARGEST VOLUME STATIONS."
(One thousand vending machines, but only at the busiest 185 (out of 460+ stations).
Sounds like I'll have to buy my Metrocard in Manhattan, if only the highest volume stations will be included. Since these will be the only places to buy the one-day pass, which the MTA is known to be against, the location of those vending machines is likely to become a political issue -- ie. how come a family who lives along the G can't buy four fun passes for a trip around town but a family at 68th and Lex can?
> (One thousand vending machines, but only at the busiest 185 (out of
> 460+ stations).
And only TWO until next June.
--Mark
Mark, et., al., ... it's only a T-E-S-T ...
BTW at LI Bus they couldn't wait for the TA so they went & bought a different type of machine. You can't put an existing card in it & it probally isn't fluent in quite as many languages, but you can buy the same pre-packaged value MetroCards avail. at a Subway station, i.e. $6, $20, etc. If anyone needs more detail on this I have a colleague at LI Bus, he has access to the internet, but I can't get him on Subtalk ... YET :-(
Mr t__:^)
Anyone seen the oldest rapid transit on earth known as Manhattan Elevated car 41 or the G Trailer being transported from 207th Street Yard to the Court Street station (New York Transit Museum) a month or two back? I think the readers of Subtalk would like to hear the tale of it's trip. I sure would like to see photographs of same.
I've been a naughty webmaster and I haven't finished the 'G' story
on the museum's web page. I'm waiting for some photos to be
delivered to me. Brief summary: The car was towed (by New Orleans
car 850) to the end of the museum's rail in East Haven. There
it was winched onto a low-boy trailer, where it rode on its own
trucks on top of snap track. G arrived at 207 St yard around 4PM
on November 10. It was unloaded on the car delivery track.
The air hoses on G were modified (at the museum) to mate with the
air couplings on TA diesels. A VanDorn to MCB coupler adapter was
used to make the iron coupling. The train consisting of the diesel
on the south end and G on the north proceeded at about 8PM down
the 8th Avenue line, diverted over 6th Avenue to Jay St because
of a GO in effect, and backed into the Transit Museum's trackage at
Court Street. The diesel was cut away and delivery completed shortly
after midnight
Where you there when it happened? I sure would like to see photographs. Good job in delivery to transit museum.
This is another good example of a museum group and the industry working together. Car G, as I recall, is the oldest piece of such equipment extant in the country. It's being at the Transit Museum also helps bring Shore Line before it's biggest constituency: The people of Metro New York! Hopefully both SLTM and NYTM will benefit by this effort!
Gerry from STM
Car G is the oldest surviving rapid transit car in existence, period. It's even 26 years older than the oldest surviving all-steel passenger car, subway or otherwise, Gibbs Hi-V 3352.
G is the oldest surviving rapid transit passenger car.
There is another rapid transit "car", equally as old as G,
a flat car from 1878. There's not much to it, but it is preserved
at Branford too.
I stand corrected.
I show two IRT Flat Cars on the Branford Roster, M-1 and M-8. Would these be the ones that you are speaking of?
Regards,Redbird
Which roster are you looking at? Not the online one. You had
me worried for a second that I had M-1 still listed there!
There wasn't really anything left of M-1. It was de-accessioned from the collection September 1986, according to my records. M-8 is indeed the 1878 Manhattan Elevated flatcar that I mentioned. It is
historically significant not only as the oldest surviving rapid
transit work car, but also for the trucks which have cast-iron
spoked hubs and pressed-on steel tires. It is believed that these
are the same type of trucks that were originally under car G
(when it was passenger trailer #41). The present trucks under
G are post-1900.
Jeff: I was looking at a roster in a book called "Trolley to the Past" by Andrew D.Young. The book was printed in 1983 and therefore would not reflect the demise of M-1. Many thanks for the update on these two pieces of equiptment.
Redbird
Talk about abandoned stations, I have something for you to talk about. Near Pitkin Yard is the abandoned 76th Street station and maybe the 84th Street station that never saw revenue service. It is owned by the City of New York. It was planned to have a two track connection to Pitkin yard and a four track connection at the existing bulkhead on the storage tracks at Euclid Avenue. The control machine at both Pitkin Yard and Euclid Avenue is the first General Railway Signal NX plant installed on the old Board of Transportation. The first Union Switch & Signal NX-UR Plant was installed for control of Westchester Square Interlocking and Westchester Yard. Presently, Westchester Yard is controlled by a code system in a new tower controlling the entire Pelham Bay Line. This contract was performed by Safetran and L.K. Comstock. The original relay room at Westchester Yard is still controlling the yard only.
Anyone viewing Subtalk who has extensive knowledge of NYCTA signaling?
> Near Pitkin Yard is the abandoned 76th Street station and maybe the
> 84th Street station that never saw revenue service.
Can you see remnants from a passing train or somewhere on the street? This is the first I've ever heard of this.
--Mark
No way that you can see it from a passing train. I have the General Signal Arrangement plans for it.
I'm willing to bet those stations you speak of are on that four-track line which continues beyond Euclid Ave. and is not used by revenue trains. Past Euclid Ave., A trains switch over to another track which takes them past Grant Ave., then onto the elevated structure over Liberty Ave. Perhaps at one time there may have been plans to extend the line as a subway further out to Queens.
You don't have to bet me. They have never been used and there is no signaling at 76th Street.
A few questions - when were they built and what state of completion were they left in? How far does this unused line extend? Was this supposed to be part of IND system 2? I assume these are local stations...
Wayne
To the best of my knowledge it was built in the mid 1940's. 76th Street was a 4 track local station and 84th Street was a the same.
you've got to be kidding!
As far as the Second System is concerned, the Fulton St. subway was originally supposed to follow Liberty Ave. beyond Broadway-ENY, then emerge onto the Dual Contracts elevated portion where A trains operate today. A takeover from the BMT, if you will. It would have continued along Liberty Ave. past Van Wyck Blvd, then swung over to Brinkerhoff Ave. (110th Ave. today), then to Hollis Ave., ending at Springfield Blvd.
As built, the subway portion beyond Broadway-ENY was finished out to Euclid Ave. by 1942, "and slightly beyond", according to Building the Independent Subway, except for track and signals. Just how slightly is the big question. Again, you can see the four tracks beyond Euclid Ave., but there's no way to tell just how far those trackways extend. They don't lead to Pitkin Yard, do they?
The four trackways don't go to Pitkin:
Steve: The four mainline tracks at Euclid Av A1,2,3,4 extend to bumpers that end just east of the yard leads K5,6 that extend from Pitkin Av yard to east of the Grant Av station. The yard leads from Euclid Av to the Pitkin Yard are A5,6 and branch off from the mainline tracks east of the station. The stub end mainline tracks were used for storage and layups at one time and may still be used for that purpose today. I recall that sometime in the 1960's or 70's a layup train hit one of the bumpers and either killed or injured the motorman. If the mainline tracks had been extended east over Pitkin Av there were plans for a station at 76 Street. This is east of the bulkhead where the tracks now end and to the best of my knowledge that station was never built.
Regards,Redbird
I would like to know if you already have the January 1999 NYCT Agenda with proposed upcoming changes for subway & bus routes, if so, can you post it on the subtalk. I appreciate it.
Thanks,
John
Hi
I should have it,anyday ,now
Steve
How much electricity does the New York City subway systems use during rush hour?
A lot :) :)
According to NYC Transit's Facts and Figures (1995), the power required to operate the subway system during peak hours is about 495,000 kilowatts. Annually, the subway uses 1.8 billion kilowatt hours, enough to light the city of Buffalo for a year.
--Mark
I saw "money train" for the first time over the weekend, and while I know most of the props were made for the movie, does the "big board" shown in the movie exist, or is it all done in fragments. I know MNRR has a big board above grand central station which is closed to the public.
The modelboard shown in "Money train" was a prop. A real one is under construction at the new control center which is being built on 53rd St. Actually, there was nothing in that movie that was accurately portrayed. The "Money Train" was built in Coney Island Overhaul Shop for the movie but was just another prop.
Actually, the current Command Center has a working modelboard of the 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 & 6 trains.
The only accurately portrayed train and station would be the 4 where it stops at 33rd St. right when Woody Harrelson has his pocket picked. The action presumably takes place late at night, since that is the only time the 4 runs local in Manhattan.
The movie "Money Train" was a big piece of garbage. The actors where real bad the token booth scene has appauling. Also, Pelham 123 the remake was bad and it was firmed in on the TTC. ITS ALL TRASH, GARAGE, TRASH.
Actually, I personally liked "Money Train" strictly as an action movie, even though I know (like everyone else) that the story was a load of toilet trash -- totally unrealistic.
Yes, the money train car depicted was a customized R-21 commissioned by Columbia Pictures to be built by the TA at the Coney Island shops (where BTW, it was recently residing).
One of the non-action sequences -- like outside Wesley Snipes' apartment house -- was a location in Bed-Stuy since you could clearly see the Franklin Ave. Shuttle going past in the background (Obviously shot just before the closing on that line).
Doug
Considering the movie came out at least a year before the rebuild was started....
I love watching Money Train and picking it apart. It was a decent action movie, with a good plot, but the technical details were sorely lacking. Of course, Joe Moviegoer doesn't give a damn about technical details, unless he lives in the filming location, or the represented location. Worse depictions of the NYC Subway in movies? Die Hard 3 and the made-for-tv remake of Pelham 1-2-3
-Hank
One point to remember about Money Train is that the tunnel/station scenes weren't filmed in the system. The production company used an old rail tunnel in Los Angeles, building the mockup of a station.
It's hard for me to say anything even halfway decent about Money Train. Actually, the only reason it isn't the single worst movie I've seen in recent years is that I've also seen Exit to Eden and Showgirls.
Only the stunt sequences involving moving trains were shot in LA. Having been to the Public Affairs office at Livingston St, I can vouch for the filming in several actual stations, including Union Square on the IRT.
-Hank
You are quite right Hank. At the big finale of "Money Train", the scenes were shot in the station at Fort Hamilton Pkwy (or Church Ave.) on the F line.
Most of the spectacular action was of course filmed in LA on an unused rail spur in a frieght yard. An entire subway station and tunnel section were recreated in great detail. As a matter of fact Wesley Snipes is quoted as saying something like 'Man, if anyone from New York came down to this set they'd swear they were in the subway in Mid-town Manhattan!'
BTW at all the expense of having the Coney Island Shop customize an R-21 into the 'star' of "Money Train" you'd think that a "Making of..." behind the scenes kind of video would have been shot either by Columbia Pictures themselves or the TA crew that did the reconstruction work. A step by step building of the finished car would have been interesting.
Also, if I am correct the shop went and transformed the R-21 mechanically -- after a number of viewings, I am almost certain they removed the traction motors and retrofitted the car with a diesel engine. Anyone else come to the same conclusion?
Later, Doug
If you look very closely during the action sequence in which Harrelson and Snipes are hanging outside the car, you'll note that the tunnel roof is quite tall, even more so than the 4th Ave. tunnel roof.
And, as we all know, Wall St. in the movie is Union Square in disguise. I wonder if they thought of using Hoyt-Schermerhorn.
Hi all.
You might want to take another look at the article I wrote describing the biography of the Automated Times Square - Grand Central Shuttle. I have some new / corrected information including:
- I previously identified the fire as suspicious. The fire was not suspicious - it was an electrical fire that quickly got out of control. A brief description of the fire is now included in the article.
- RedbirdR33 posted a few weeks back that a motorman discharged his passengers in the station and then returned his train to Times Square. This is no legend .. the article has his name.
- There was a different kind of proposal for the shuttle even before Patterson's days at the TA. That's also briefly described in the posting.
Enjoy!
--Mark
I have all the signal circuits for the entire Automatic Shuttle. COOOOL!!!!
Nicely done!
Do you suppose you could make a slight correction in the Brighton line description? Specifically, the QT Brighton local via tunnel did not operate at all times by the time the R-27s entered service. It shared the same hours of operation as the Q: Monday-Friday from 6:00 AM to 7:00 PM. The QB via bridge had the Brighton line all to itself when it operated during evenings, nights, and all day on weekends. In other words, the QB and QT never operated at the same time.
I'm just curious------For so long, the idea of there being a Second Avenue subway has been something of a fantasy. What makes you believe that things will be any different this time?---Is it possible that this is just some more political rhetoric? In the early 70's, the Second Avenue subway was actually under construction in some areas and it was never completed---now it's 25 years later, I find it very hard to believe that we may be seeing "the light at the end of the tunnel"--I'll believe it when I see it. Your opinions please----Convince me otherwise.
I'll believe it when I see it, as they say. A very ambitious, but also a very expensive plan. Castles in the air....
Wayne
Here is the Regional Plan Proposal as reported by the Tri-State Transportation Campaign:
"Current east side access plans revolve around MTA's Manhattan East Side Alternatives (MESA) study. The agency is considering building the Second Ave. subway from 125th St. to 63rd St. at an estimated cost of $3.5 billion dollars. Below 63rd St., trains would run on the unused N/R express tracks.
But the Regional Plan Association (RPA) has constructed a more comprehensive region-wide plan to serve NYC's needs if the forecasted 650,000 additional jobs are added to the city's work force over the next 20 years. The centerpiece of RPA's plan, MetroEast (see map), is a Second Avenue subway, using rapid transit vehicles able to operate on all lines in the existing rail and subway system.
MetroEast calls for five new lines:
Co-op City (Bronx) - Whitehall St (Manhattan): Travels north-south via the Broadway (N/R) line express tracks in lower Manhattan, east-west from Broadway to Second Ave. via 63rd St., north-south on Second Ave. to 125th St, under a new tunnel from the Harlem River to West Farms (south of the Bronx Zoo) and along Amtrak's existing right of way serving Parkchester, ending at Co-op City.
125th Street (Manhattan) - Jamaica (Queens): Travels north-south via Second Ave. from 125th St. to Water St., to Brooklyn via a new tunnel under the East River, to the Atlantic terminal in Brooklyn, and along the LIRR right of way in Brooklyn to Jamaica.
Grand Central Station - Jamaica (Queens): Spurs from Second Ave. at GCT, travels to Queens via new tunnel and tracks used for the 125th St. - Jamaica line. Could continue to Kennedy airport.
GCT - Bensonhurst (Brooklyn): From GCT, express service along Second Ave., through lower Manhattan, to Brooklyn via existing Montague St. tunnel used by the M, N, and R trains and onto Bensonhurst via the existing N train line tracks.
Jamaica/Laurelton (Queens) - Kings Highway (Brooklyn): Service along Queens Blvd. connecting to Manhattan at 63rd St. and Second Ave. Runs north-south along Second Ave., east-west on 14th St. under a new tunnel, and north-south under Avenue C, connecting to Brooklyn via existing Rutgers St. Tunnel (F line)."
I would guess that you might see some of this actually done, but in stages. Look for 63rd Street to 125th Street to be done first, because two sections in East Harlem are already done. Grand Central to the Nassau Street Loop might be next. The least likely (or perhaps most distant) elements: the new tunnel to Brooklyn and the 14th St.-Avenue C connection.
(Could it happen?) I have taken my lessons from personal finance, and from the 3rd aquaduct.
Most people know they are not disciplined enough to walk around with cash in their pocket for a week, and then have some left over for savings. The only way Americans save is "FORCED SAVINGS," in which they intentionally trick themselves by taking their money away up front, then living off the remainder. Payroll savings plans are an example of this. So is homeownership -- the largest asset people accumulate, since they are required to pay both principal and interest. Whole Life, which includes both insurance and a savings vehicle, is another example. Now people are introducing an automatic withdrawl college savings plan as well.
Politicians are even less responsible than people, since they are only concerned about their own term in office. New York State politicians are worse than politicians elsewhere. Major investments like the subway benefit the future. Politicans like to announce them, since they get credit, but when budget time comes along and all the unions and advocacy groups show up, the money disappears.
The only way this happens is if a dedicated revenue stream is created which neither the MTA, the City or State can get its hands on, no matter what. That's how the water tunnel is being built, with water bill money (which the Mayor tried to seize by having the city "sell" the resevoirs to the Water Board, which would have run up a crippling debt and would have had to raise rates without the infrastructure improvements).
My suggestion is a new personal income tax surcharge on city residents for new transit lines (which cannot be stolen for raises or maintenance that Pataki has promised anyway) and new and rebuilt schools, coupled with an equal (as a percent of income) surcharge on the commuter tax for the LIRR and Metro North improvements like LIRR to GCT, Metro North to Penn, and direct conections to Lower Manhattan. Keep the city and suburban money separate, so Brooklynites don't get screwed (again). And couple the whole thing with a cut in the Vampire State income tax, so we aren't paying any more. Make the surcharges last for 15 years, and built the improvement over 15 years, for cash. And put something in that forbids the Mayor, or the next Mayor, from selling the subways to the MTA and blowing the money.
"And put something in that forbids the Mayor, or the next Mayor, from selling the subways to the MTA and blowing the money."
So, these new transit lines would be totally separate from the existing system? Isn't one of the NY subway's most useful features the ability to transfer from every line to every other line in several different places? Under the present system, a new line or extension that would run to an unserved or underserved neighborhood doesn't have to "go everywhere" (i.e. downtown, Midtown, East Side, West Side) as long as it has connections with other lines that do.
What you are proposing is a NON-system. Would the MTA allow your "Independent Subway" to punch holes into its tunnels so that there are physical connections between the stations of the two systems? Would it allow free transfer, or would it assess its own fare when one leaves your system and enters the MTA system?
New York had three separate systems, with no free transfer between them. It didn't work, because it wasn't efficient (duplication galore and multiple fares), and they unified these systems for the very reasons I mentioned above. Ah well, everything old is new again!
You misinterpreted.
What I want to avoid is 1) raising a special tax to build a new Second Avenue Subway, as I proposed 2) the MTA issues bonds, and "buys" the EXISTING subways from the city of New York, finacing the bonds using the revenues that were supposed to go to the new subway and 3) the City uses the bond proceeds for tax cuts, social service spending, etc. depending on who is in power.
Confused? This sort of stuff goes on in New York all the time to get around the constitutional requirement that a budget be balanced, so the politicians can reward their friends. In the early 1990s the state "sold" the land under Thruway and a bunch of other roads to the Thruway authority, and used to money to cover a deficit. The Mayor wanted to sell the resevoirs to the Water Board to run a back door deficit -- if he had gotten away with it, money wouldn't have been available to complete the third water tunnel.
Now there is a lawsuit worth fighting. These deficits were run illegally, so NYC and NY State residents should not be required to pay them back. The pension money for those POL and their cronies should be used instead.
I just saw a group of NYC politicos hawking this subway on NY1. Various flavors of a 2nd Avenue subway have been proposed since the 1920s. It is the ultimate transit pipe dream. We all know that no magic revenue stream will appear. So why is this being resurrected again, and why at this particular time?
(p.s. regarding water charges, in 1995 one dollar gave you approx 95 CuFt of NYC water, that same one dollar today gets you 80 CuFt of same NYC water.)
Yet NJ Transit is moving forward with an ambitious rail expansion program. This has generally not been reported by the New York news media, but I suspect that the public here is going to notice when the first lines across the river open next year.
Currently under construction for NJT:
Montclair Connection and Electrification
Bergen-Essex Light Rail (Hoboken-Bayonne)
Secaucus Transfer Station
Planning:
Camden LRT
Elizabeth connection to Bergen-Essex LRT
Newark Connection (Monorail from NE Corridor to Newark Airport)
-Hank
[Currently under construction for NJT:
Montclair Connection and Electrification
Bergen-Essex Light Rail (Hoboken-Bayonne)
Secaucus Transfer Station
Planning:
Camden LRT
Elizabeth connection to Bergen-Essex LRT
Newark Connection (Monorail from NE Corridor to Newark Airport)
-Hank ]
To which should be added:
Newark-Elizabeth Light Rail
North Extension of Newark's Light Rail
Hoboken-Butler-Sparta Commuter Rail Line
West Shore Commuter Rail Line
Andy
[Yet NJ Transit is moving forward with an ambitious rail expansion program. This has generally not been reported by the New York news media, but I suspect that the public here is going to notice when the first lines across the river open next year.]
It hasn't gotten much notice because to the average New Yorker, the state of New Jersey exists at the very fringe of consciousness. If New Yorkers think about New Jersey at all, it doesn't extend much beyond the Meadowlands (if they're football fans) or Atlantic City (if they're gamblers), with the rest of the state just a vast wasteland. What's ironic about all this is that New Yorkers consider themselves sophisticated "citizens of the world." Sorry folks, the average resident of rural North Dakota has a more cosmopolitan outlook than you do.
Here in Chicago, we have the same odd relationship with Northwest Indiana. Lake and Porter counties in IN are connected to Chicago by commuter rail (South Shore Line), and indeed many towns there are right across the state line from Chicago neighborhoods and are closer to downtown than many towns in IL that are clearly considered suburbs.
Nevertheless, a common phrase in commercials is "Chicagoland and Northwest Indiana" stores, or dealers, or whatever; i.e. NW IN is not part of Chicagoland. In the minds of many Chicagoans, Indiana is "far away," even though it's closer than the neighboring counties in Wisconsin, which nobody doubts is within Chicago's orbit (road trips, vacation homes, etc.). It's true that NW Indiana has a mainly industrial base that makes it relatively independent of Chicago. But there are a thousand clues, small and large, that most people in Chicago and the surrounding Illinois counties don't think of Indiana as part of the metro area.
[Nevertheless, a common phrase in commercials is "Chicagoland and Northwest Indiana" stores, or dealers, or whatever; i.e. NW IN is not part of Chicagoland. In the minds of many Chicagoans, Indiana is "far away," even though it's closer than the neighboring counties in Wisconsin, which nobody doubts is within Chicago's orbit (road trips, vacation homes, etc.). It's true that NW Indiana has a mainly industrial base that makes it relatively independent of Chicago. But there are a thousand clues, small and large, that most people in Chicago and the surrounding Illinois counties don't think of Indiana
as part of the metro area.]
Interesting observation. But what makes New York unusual is that city (or at least Manhattan) residents lack any concept of a "metropolitan area." In this peculiar worldview, civilization essentially stops at the Hudson and East rivers. Not only is New Jersey beyond their comprehension, but so are the suburbs that are within New York State, such as Long Island and Westchester. Even the city's outer boroughs are not quite on the map. For example, many Manhattanites regard desirable Brooklyn neighborhoods such as Brooklyn Heights and Park Slope - areas that most people from anywhere else would regard practically as extensions of Manhattan - in the same manner as we would think of Madagascar or Bhutan.
Why this strange geographical sense? Partly it's a result of the New York Times, which (1) is extremely Manhattan-centric, and (2) has a virtual monopoly upon the thoughts of the Manhattan elites (the city's two tabloid newspapers, the Daily News and the Post, are considered fit only for semiliterate cretins). But in large part, more in point for this board, is the high extent to which Manhattan residents are dependent on mass transit. I'm hardly going to say that transit is bad. But it does have a "narrowing of the mind" influence, in the sense that areas off convenient transit routes are hopelessly remote.
<<<(the city's two
tabloid newspapers, the Daily News and the Post, are considered fit only for semiliterate cretins).>>>
Well, Peter, I wouldn't go that far.
[<<<(the city's two
tabloid newspapers, the Daily News and the Post, are considered fit only for semiliterate cretins).>>>
Well, Peter, I wouldn't go that far.]
That's not my view. But, unfortunately, it is the view of the Manhattan elites whose lives revolve around the Times. Note that Broadway shows advertise heavily in the Times - even though, alone among advertisers, they're forced to pay higher rates - but ignore the tabloids. In addition to tourists, Broadway shows appeal mainly to the Manhattan elites (I use "elites" in a somewhat sarcastic manner).
Yet even though New York is a transit-oriented city, the Times does a rather poor job of reporting about transit issues and transportation in general. I sometimes spot factual errors in the stories they do run, which makes me wonder about what kind of misinformation they must be spreading about tax policy or the Balkans, about which I don't have any other sources to rely on.
They do have a lot of articles about automobiles (a special section on Sundays and a column on Fridays), and much of this is fluff which fits in nicely with the auto ads. The paper also has an obsession with problems in the taxi industry, which is usually covered from the point of view of the passengers, not the drivers. The medallion leasing system, probably one of the causes of poor service and reckless driving, wasn't mentioned until someone who actually worked in the industry wrote a letter to the editor about it.
< I sometimes spot
factual errors in the stories they do run, which makes me wonder about what kind
of misinformation they must be spreading about tax policy or the Balkans, about
which I don't have any other sources to rely on. >
Good point. In Nov the Toronto Star did a five part story comparing metro transit systems in DC, NY, SF, ATL, and Toronto. Being familiar with three of the systems, I spotted several errors. Earlier when MTA was still internally debating the "pass" pricing strategies I took the trouble to phone up the Times reporter who had misreported both pricing and usage data for the Bay Area. P.S. listen to BBC or better yet read non-US press for foreign news with at least different biases and errors not inspired in Wash.
> P.S. listen to BBC or better yet read non-US press for foreign news
(Breaking my off topic policy, but ... ) I agree. I'd love to get BBC1, BBC2, and Channel Four here at home. (At least so I could watch 25-to-1.)
-Dave
[Earlier when MTA was still internally debating the "pass" pricing strategies I took the trouble to phone up the Times reporter who had misreported both pricing and usage data for the Bay Area.]
As a general rule, I've found the Daily News to be the best of the city's papers when it comes to reporting on transit matters. They seem to have the knack of reporting stories from the riders' perspectives, while I suspect the Times relies way too much on MTA press releases. The Post's coverage is okay, but sometimes rather superficial.
Actually, the News and Post really are that bad. Its unfortunate that New York Newsday, which was targeted toward non-snobs with a brain, did not succeed.
Anyway, Manhattan really is that important. I say that as a Brooklyn resident who is not semi-literate, and therefore know where the money comes from. It is the richest county in the United States by far, and generates the wealth that supports us all. Most of the Metro Area's better off, even those who do not live in Manhattan, either work in Manhattan or work in companies which are where they are to be near Manhattan. Or work for a government which relies on taxes from Manhattan. Then there are the second home areas for Manhattanites and semi-Manhattanites. Garden City is as much an extension of Manhattan as Park Slope.
The real parochialism is elsewhere in the region, where people do not understand the extent to which they are dependent on New York City in general and Manhattan in particular. What it really comes down to is money for politicians. If a local store owners gives a campaign contribution to a local poltician, then that's the economic development that matters. The idiot politicians do not understand where the money comes from the supports the store. That's one reason why those idiots at Brooklyn Borough Hall never complained about the Manhattan Bridge. They think everyone in Brooklyn drives to work in Brooklyn and has their own reserved parking space, just like they do.
[Anyway, Manhattan really is that important. I say that as a Brooklyn resident who is not semi-literate, and therefore know where the money comes from. It is the richest county in the United States by far, and generates the wealth that supports us all. Most of the Metro Area's better off, even those who do not live in Manhattan, either work in Manhattan or work in companies which are where they are to be near Manhattan. Or work for a government which relies on taxes from Manhattan. Then there are the second home areas for Manhattanites and semi-Manhattanites. Garden City is as much an extension of Manhattan as Park Slope.]
I certainly don't deny that Manhattan is the economic center of the region. But that still doesn't excuse, in my opinion, the way many of the Manhattan elites think the rest of the world is meaningless. We're all interconnected, and it's foolish not to accept the fact that other areas are important too.
You get the feeling there was a curse put on the 2nd Ave. line when it was first proposed. First, the Depression put a damper on things, not to mention wiping out the IND Second System. Then WWII came along, followed by a fellow named Robert Moses. Then, after construction finally got under way in 1972, the city went bankrupt a few years later and put the project on indefinite hold.
I am interested in modeling the IRT 7 Flushing Line (generally from the 1950's to pre-World's Fair 1964-65) and am looking for suggestions regarding the availability of car models, track, and elevated struc- tures to make the scenario as realistic as possible.
I have read about the plastic models available from Images Replicas, and they seem to be reasonable facsimiles (although expensive). Can anyone tell me if they are a good buy? Has anyone out there actually assembled the models? What did you do to power the cars? What other sources exist for IRT modeling?
Nowhere can I find any discussion of how to recreate the actual ele- vated box girders, supporting stanchions, stations, signals, and other parts of the system. Would appreciate any help you can give.
1 I am part way thru assembling a trio of cars. they seem sanely designed. 2. the Bachmann GE 44/70 tonner drive appears to have proper wheelbase/driver diameter. I expext to find a way to affix the sideframes and then mount the unit in one car. that will be sufficient power for a 6 to 10 car Lex LCL. As to el structure, you should look up some articles in MR by Eric Bronsky- a Chicago modeler whop has done exquisite stuff AND some masters-- see a Walthers Cat. Also Micro Engineering makes city bridgework which I think can be adapted.--I have the parts but the project has been delayed.
Check out The Transfer Station right at this site. Scroll the page down about 1/2 way - there's a section on modeling resources. Be sure to chck out Pat Villani's page - he runs a board similar to this one (Model SubTalk) that's a great way of seeing what others have done.
I have 2 of IR's sets - one R-17 and one R-22 that I haven't put together yet. They sell them assembled now if you don't want to do it yourself. As for his prices, if you think those are expensive, they're cheap compared to the N scale R-36WF models that NJ International used to sell. Those were in the hundreds of dollars. I also have 1 and 1/2 sets (2 powered, one trailer) of R-15s, in brass, that MTS Imports used to sell (HO scale). I can't even pronounce what I paid for them :)
If you live near southern New Jersey, you might want to check out the East Penn Traction Club's trolley meet being held April 30th and May 1st of this year. Lots of people (myself included) who share your interest will be there. Info is available at their site.
--Mark
After going down the 7th Ave line and around South Ferry and up to Wall St on the Lex for the third time in my life, I'm wondering if there could possibly be any more unusual temporary detours, and I don't mean long-term things like the Lenox shutdown over the summer. Most unusual after the South Ferry switch for me, would be an early 1990 reroute of an M train (I was cutting school at the time) over the Manhattan Bridge to B'way Express, and on to 21st/Queens and return to Brooklyn via B'way Express and the Montague tunnel. This was before there was any kind of service from the Broadway line to Queensbridge and about 3 months before the temporary re-opening of the B'way bridge line.
-Hank
I vividy remember the D train detours in the early 80s when the north side of the Manhatttan Bridge closed during midday hours for construction. Trains would leave Broadway-Lafayette and travel via the now-closed Chyrstie St cut to Essex St, stop to pick up a second train operator, proceed about 15 car lengths onto the Williamsburgh Bridge, reverse into Essex St, drop off the second train operator and then run non-stop through the Nassau St Loop via Montague St tunnel to DeKalb Ave. I think the brochures said to plan an extra 30 minutes for the trip.
--Mark
Back in 1983, I was on a Manhattan-bound F in Brooklyn on my way to Delancey St. At E.Broadway, we were informed that the trainwas going to be re-routed. Our next stop was Essex St SB. Handy for me, since the bank I worked at was right up the stairs, but you had to see the puzzled looks of everybody else. Unfortunately, I don't know where the train went to after that.
I can't imagine how you would have gotten to Essex st. without going through Delancey and Second Ave., as the connection between the Sixth Ave. IND and the BMT is just South of Broadway-Lafayette. Also, you'd have had to change ends and go backwards from the F tracks to end up at Essex.
My next question is "Why?" I'm not even sure if an eight car train of R-46's would fit in the Essex St. Station! Perhaps you were coming from the other direction?
How's this for a fantasy detour:
While at Woodside, on a Manhattan-bound train, we hear:
"Attention please. Due to (mumble-mumble) this train is being rerouted to Times Square via the BMT express. We will run express to Times Square, via the Queens Plaza crossover, 60th Street tunnel, and Broadway express. Please watch your step when exiting the train at Times Square!!!."
No problem...I wear size 13 shoes!
Got you beat....15! :) And once stuck in the doors of an F train..
-Hank
And when the train would reach Times Square, the conductor would repeat a gazillion times, "Watchyerstep, watchyerstep, watchyerstep."
Wonder if the train were to just dump its load then and there.
What the hell! -- run the sucker all the way out to the Island on the Brighton Line!
Yes - but a big problem with such a move is that the crossover is only on the upper (northbound) level at Queensboro Blaza. A crossover on the lower level used to exist but no more!
One early Saturday morning almost 20 years ago, there was a motorman who didn't know the move. He forgot to pick up the "pull" man at Essex St., saw he was on the bridge (albeit the wrong one) and kept on going. They couldn't get him on the radio either! So off he goes to Bway Myrtle! This guy was completely lost! The towerman there (not there no more) told him to relay the train on the J line north of Bway Myrtle and take it back south toward Dekalb!
If this was a ten-car train, I hope they didn't make any station stops!
That was commonplace when the Chrystie St. connection opened. You're not speaking of a D train during the special reroute in 1982, are you?
I guess you had to be there.
In the mid-1980s, I took a D train from Brooklyn to Manhattan via the Montague St. Tunnel--but the D train was able to use the 6th Avenue tracks. Here's how:
--D train switched to J/M tracks in the Montague St tunnel
--After entering the Williamsburg Bridge just after the Essex Street station, the train reversed and used the Christie Street connection and re-entered the D tracks, stopping at Broadway/Lafayette.
While all this was going on I had no idea where I was being shanghai'ed, since the motorman made no public announcements.
The most unusual detour I have ever seen involved northbound E & F trains. Prior to their replacement, the switches at 75th Ave would frequently fail. On occassion, northbound trains would be sent down the yard lead (D6 track) into jamaica yard where it would loop the yard, through the car wash and out of the yard, back to the main line via D-10 track. The trains would bypass 75th Ave and Union Turnpike. The look of astonishment on the passenger's faces as they looped the yard was classic. This move is no longer permitted with customers aboard the train, however.
That sounds like one hell of a move!!
Too bad it can't be done anymore. Why is it no longer permitted?
Although the loop track in Jamaica Yard is considered Main Line trackage, it is not certified to carry passengers. I don't know the reason for the change. However when the switches at 75th Ave were redone, the general order called for a similar move but customers were bussed around the construction.
Was the Manhattan-bound express-to-local crossover switch just past 75th Ave. removed at that time? It was at the same location where E trains are normally switched from local to express.
The customers were bussed during the time when the switches, just south of 75th Ave were removed for replacement. The original 'detour' I mentioned usually occurred durig switch failure on the north-bound side.
The customers were bussed during the time when the switches, just south of 75th Ave were removed for replacement. The original 'detour' I mentioned usually occurred during switch failure on the north-bound side.
1st of all,does fox 5 have a website?There was Saturday a New York minute segment on the what NYC TRANSIT plans to do.All I was able to catch was the plan to at least complete the 2nd Ave line.Was there more?
To everyone who watched Sesame Street in the early 1970's, dig back into the darkest reaches of your memories. I remember a fantastic musical skit called Subway. There was a mock-up of what could have been an R 1-9, a BMT standard, or any other brownish colored car. Picture this mock-up full of Muppets singing about the subway and crowding... I specifically remember the verse "Ohhh, my stop just went by (Kermit); ohhh, you've got your finger in my eye! (Prairie Dawn)..."
Anyone else remember this?
I remember this and have seen it within the last 5 years. I guess they still pull out the classic bits now and again. :)
I'd pay good $ for a copy of that piece. I wonder if there's any way to get my hands on old Sesame Street episodes...
Contact:
Children's Television Workshop,
C/O WNET-TV
450 West 33rd Street
New York, NY 10001
They run classic bits all the time. Today I saw two of my personal favorites, 'C is for Cookie', and 'Rubber Ducky' :) Ah, to not have to find an excuse to watch....
-Hank
There's also a great episode of Mister Rogers' Neighborhood where he takes a tour of the Arden Trolley Museum. I have that one on tape!
The song is used as the theme of the following otherwise unremarkable public access show on Manhattan Neighborhood Network:
Adventures Of Subway Girl, The
A well known super hero? A cape avenger? No! Just your average NY chick, in her journey through life, and what better means, than the subway. Weekly#147 Fri, Jul 24 at 12:30AM on Ch:57.
You can read the lyrics here: Subway "Buy a token now for a ride that’s super-wow on the subway!"
Has anyone seen the new DiGiorno Pizza commercial with a man on the Chicago el(on a 3200 train) looking at people who live along the line through their windows eating pizza?
In one scene I thought I saw a five car train and they run in even number units, right?
My qujestion is this - do the ELs really come THAT close to people's windows?
Yep, they sure do in some places. This is especially true on the Red line between Sheridan and Fullerton.
And, yes, the 3200s are arranged in married pairs and operate only in even-numbered consists.
When I was a kid I used to run to the window to see the "l" go by at my aunts house and they sure seemed like they were that close to me.
Now when I ride trains the windows still seem close but the shades are usually not up. On a nice Sat. AM in the summer when you get closer to town there is some interesting scenery on the sundecks at the top of some of the new 3-4 floor condo units just east of the red line.
Can you use metrocards at every sub-station? If no, which stations can you use metrocards?
MetroCards can be used at :every subway station, St. George in Staten Island, all local bus lines in NYC-NYCT,MABSTOA and the private lines (Such as Queens surface).
You should say 'DOT Franchised Lines', as there are many 'private' servuces that attempt to offer bus service. These include NY Bus Service and Liberty Lines Express, Bronx; Command Bus, Brooklyn; Queens Surface, Jamacia Transit, Green Bus, and Triboro Coach in Queens and parts of Brooklyn. All of these companies also offer x-bus service to Manhattan.
-Hank
What is interesting here is how WE talk about the various parts or operators of service, e.g. on the subway we'll say: IRT, BMT, IND, Brighton or Sea Beach lines. WE know exactly what each means.
The "surface" division has the same lingo, e.g. TA, MTA, NYCT, MABSTOA, SIR, DOT, "privates", but a novice will have trouble seeing a difference in the TA fleet since they all have blue stripes. In addition the DOT "privates" seem to be using the same equipment with only a unique stripes for each (not something that a novice may pick up on right away). Add to this other bus operators in NYC, e.g. Varsity and the water gets very muddy. I LOVE IT !!!!
Any-how to answer the original question: In the subway, whether they be under or above ground, if it has a turnstile then it's TA and the MetroCard works there (as opposed to PATH, MetroNorth, Amtrek, LIRR). Now I just have to add a bit more confusion, on ther LIRR they use a two sided card, so one is for the LIRR, then flip it over for the TA.
If the bus has a farebox inside, then the MetroCard might work .... you have to look out for companies like NJ Transit, that farebox is made by the same company, but only takes coin & bills.
Aren't you glad that you asked THIS group that question ????
Mr t__:^)
Here in Chicago we are worried about having only one portion of a train line ready to fall down and having to add longer platforms and handicapped access to stations.
The Douglas branch of the Blue Line is the problem, it is no longer then 10-miles from the interchange to the terminal at 54th/Cermak in Cicero.
This and the extension of Brown Line platforms to serve 8 car trains instead of the now 6 car max due to heavy rush-hour ridership.
These will be the main topics the CTA will be concerned about to get funding for from the State of Illinois in June. It is almost certain that they will get the funding because Chicago Expressways
(which also really need repair) are included in it. Also the government aproved the transportation act it is included in and the State only has to fund 20% of it while the government covers 80%.
Anyway, after these renovations are done the CTA will be in a good state of repair with clean, friendly, on-time service like they want. And be ready for possible rail extensions. Also right now the CTA has finished cleaning our 2 subways in Chicago and will continue to clean all of the Stations continuosly. They even are talking to people that will train their employees in classes to be the most helpful and friendly to customers and satellite trakcing of busses so they don't get bunched up together.
My point is, how is the Subway doing in NYC? What I mean is, how many stations and or Elevated lines are ready to fall down? I've noticed some pictures with no roofing at all over station does this really still exsist. How old are the trains that run in NYC, our oldest cars are almost 20 years, from 1980.
Also, what is on the planning board for renovating the Subway in 1999?
Just wondering, every little detail would be useful
BJ
BAD NEWS:
Cars: Newest 15 to 20 years old, most 25 to 40.
Bridges: Trains to large areas of Brooklyn rely on two suspension bridges which are shaking apart, continually half closed.
Extensions: only one short stretch per decade, in Queens only.
Elevated: the Flushing line had to be rebuilt twice recently. I believe the Broadway Brooklyn line is suspect.
Deep, deep in debt.
GOOD NEWS:
Our Medicaid spending is higher than yours. There are brand new hospital wings and parking garages all over town. Most are empty.
At least we aren't talking about the schools, which are worse. The roads aren't so great either.
We're building a third major water tunnel. We don't need it, but it will be there if one of the other two break.
Things were worse in the 1970s. The cars run better now than they did back then, when they were new.
Transit is cheaper here, and there are two workers on every train and 24 hour service on all lines, which you don't have.
Ridership is way, way up. Trains are more or less on time. The share of riders traveling to the central business district via subway is much higher than in Chicago.
Lots of jobs for planners doing "studies" of transportation improvements which never occur.
Chicago transit did not do well in the 80's and early 90's
Federal capital funds were cut and needed modernization did not happen. The RTA that provides local funds moved funds from the city where transit ridership was high to the burbs to run empty yellow buses that expend the burbs fair share of the funds.
METRA is doing well and works well, and the CTA does a good job despite being underfuned from Downstate, Washington and the burbs.
The new METRO card type fares seem to be working well in Chicago as well as NY to increase passenger revenue and ridership. The easiest new transit rider to attract is to get an existing rider to ride more.
The revitalization of older neighborhoods is also helping. Younger people are discovering that living in a vibrant city can be fun. Chicago and NY of today fit that description. That could not be said of the 70's.
Mayor Daly is behind transit and transit capital investments. I do not know where Mayor G. stands on transit investment. I expect he is not such a big transit fan.
The new TEA-21 program will help with long term capital needs but it needs to be funded close to authorized levels.
ISTEA was funded beteween 90 and 95% for Highway funds but more like 60% to 70% for transit funding when compared to what was authorized.
This session should be interesting in Congress, if they ever get to work.
(Mayor G and transit). Infrastructure and debt are Mayor G's weak links. The fact that he continued the debt increase of the Dinkins years, and the lack of new investement for 35 years, has been pointed out by the critics. To be fair, with money freed up by years of tight budgets, more school rehab/road rehab etc. is going on now than in recent memory. But Mayor G himself has raised the bar, and people expect more.
I thought that Mayor G's strategy was to get transportation improvements if possible, but make the state/MTA/Port Authority, which are sucking out all our money, pay for them. But he has lost that battle -- our tax dollars from those sources are going to the suburbs. So I'm not sure where he stands.
My most pro-Giuliani co-workers claim there is no evidence the Rudy is anti-investment, since City Planning only dared to suggest two plans to him -- the airport connection and the #7 extension. He endorsed them both, along with at least part of the 2nd Avenue subway, a new convention center, stadiums, a bigger capital plan for schools, etc, etc. But he's got to get the money. Give the Mayor credit. At least he has cut spending on other things, so it is at least possible to think about new public works.
Probably the biggest "lost opportunity" was the failure of Mayor Giuliani's plan to sell off some of the city's public hospitals. I don't remember much about the plan's failure as I wasn't working in the city at the time and didn't pay much attention. But it's sort of in the back of my mind that the health care unions ("save our [cushy, overpaid] jobs!") and the Upper West Side limousine liberals ("we're abandoning our poor [whatever they are]!") were the main obstacles. But clearly, the burden of 12 or 13 public hospitals is daunting, and diverts a huge amount of money that could be far better spent on transit improvements. Nassau County, which given the state of its economy and its level of taxation should be rolling in riches, is instead running huge deficits due mainly to the endless money drain of just one public hospital.
And there's absolutely no reason to believe that the city's having so many public hospitals contributes anything to the public's well-being. Chicago and Los Angeles each have just one public hospital, and needless to say their residents aren't dying off in droves. They're too busy laughing at New York for squandering so much money ... and too busy expanding their transit systems.
Just to shed a little more detail on Larry's post:
the NEWEST fleet of cars is eleven years old (model R68A, 1988);
the OLDEST fleets of cars are 40 years old (model R26,R28) and are due for retirement within a year or so; the others fall somewhere in the middle - 1961 thru 1985. We have a 35-year-old fleet of nearly 600 tireless cars which serve our "B" division; Model R32. These trains, which had a general overhaul in 1988-1989, look and ride as well today as they did the day they were delivered in 1964 and 1965. The people who maintain these trains have to be commended for keeping them running at their advanced ages. One fleet (the R40 model, 1968) is averaging well over 100,000 miles between breakdowns due to the vigilance of NYCT's maintenance workers. We have had our "lemons" too, most notably the 1954 R16 model, retired in the late 80's (the 1972 R44 model also has been problematic). But as a rule, the maintenance folk are extremely vigilant when it comes to upkeep of the trains.
The stations - that's another story. Some excellent, some good, some not so good, some decrepit. I'll elaborate in another post if you wish.
Wayne
NOTE: I don't work for NYCT (wish I did) but do use the system frequently and do keep an eye on conditions (for my own purposes).
I do work for NYCT. There are two problems--one is money--sure they could renovate more stations and buy more cars, but would you pay maybe $5 for one ride or maybe a 10-15% tax increase. They are working as fast as money will allow and they are concentrating on ther larger stations first.
The other problem is the tracks and structure- here again a problem is money. Plus you have the fact that you must repair with the system running and that adds to cost and time.
A third problem which can be overcome if the city fathers dont cave in is NIMBY-- "yes we need more subways." Politicians:"We'll build it under x street" People: "what x street- you'll kill my flowers, my pool will get dirty, we'll get bad people int the area, ad nauseum" Politicans: "OK it is Y street". then ... (you know the rest...)
Just to also mention that there are no stations in danger of falling down; and of the 2 decrepit suspension bridges bringing trains from Brooklyn, the Williamsburg will be completely rehabilitated within the next 5 years (a shutdown of train service is scheduled for this spring for major upgrade and repair work) and the Manhattan Bridge may never again see full service, even though it's been constantly under reconstruction for the last 15 years.
-Hank
Not all CTA cars are 20 years old or newer. The 2200 series cars date from 1969, and the 2400s from the mid-1970s.
BJ, First lets get the record streight, the TA no longer has any AUTHORITY ..... in their name that is, just NYCT for short :-)
Mr t__:^)
I noticed and allot of chit, chat back and forth about NYCT that is not confirmed. Where is some stuff you all can talk about.
What is CBTC and ATS. Firstly, CBTC is Communications Based Train Control. Trains will communicate with wayside antennas or beacons in zones and the position of that train will be transmitted to the following train. Very close headways can now be obtained by the following train knowing the speed of the leading train and its position at all times. The old brick wall principal of block design will be history. It will be possible to have headways of 30 seconds or less. It's coming guys, like it or not and the LIRR will follow. Tests will be conducted on the Culver Line (F train) middle track starting at Church Avenue. The Long Island Railroad will participate. The entire 14th Street-Canarsie line will be tested with CBTC and commissioned for revenue service.
ATS stands for Automatic Train Supervision is used on NYCT for the new Control Center moderization project. A work station will be installed at Queensboro Plaza to control Queens Plaza and 36th Street Interlocking on the Queens Line. This is a first for NYCT. Queens Plaza is now being reconfigured to the 63rd Street line.
Why don't you guy tell me what you think of this? THIS IS ALL FACT!!!
"Trains will communicate with wayside antennas or beacons in zones and the position of that train will be transmitted to the following train. Very close headways can now be obtained by the following train knowing the speed of the leading train and its position at all times. The old brick wall principal of block design will be history. It will be possible to have headways of 30 seconds or less."
I know that such a system was (or is very soon going to be) installed in the Transbay Tunnel of the BART system in order to increase the tunnel's capacity without having to add (exceedingly expensive) new tunnels. This is especially interesting because the tunnel is a "choke point": there is no alternate route for BART trains from the east side of the Bay to San Francisco. I don't remember where I read this, but they were calling the system "floating block" or "rolling block" to contrast it to today's fixed blocks.
They were going to install a system like this on the Jubilee Line Extension in London, but they ran into enough problems to scrap it for the time being and install a standard fixed block system instead, pushing back the line's opening by a year.
For more info, see:
http://www.jle.lul.co.uk/misc/millennium/index.htm
You guys out there really amaze me that nobody knows the answers to my questions on the Mineola car IRT #3344. I willing to be bet that nobody knows anything on the two experimental composite cars for the IRT subway called August Belmont #1 and John B. McDonald #2. The August Belmont was converted to a Motormans Instruction and the John B. McDonald was scrapped. I have articles with photos on these.
Why don't you guys study real history of the New York subway and elevated lines and not this recent stuff which is boring. How about Alfred Ely Beach's subway. You guys probably don't know of him. The real good rail fans are Don Harold, the late Herman Rinke of the ERA and Ed Watson, Bernie Linder and many others.
GIVE THIS SOME THOUGHT.
David,
Get a life.
Hey man, give this some thought: relax the 'tude a little bit, okay?
Respectively, read my response to Jeff H. I was trying to affend anyone out there.
CORRECTED COPY
Respectfully, read my response to Jeff H. I was trying to affend anyone out there.
I made a gross typo in my last two messages to you David. They should read as follows:
Respectfully, read my response to Jeff H. I was NOT trying to affend you or anyone out there.
You still didn't get it right. The word is OFFEND....
OK, Back to transit...AGAIN!
There was also an experimental steel IRT car before the Gibbs cars were purchased. The number 3348 rings a bell...
The IRT was a very innovative operator. They obloleted more equipment in a few short years than has happened since - with the possible exception of the BMT in the 1930s. The major difference there is that after the TA took over the BMT, they kept buying the obsloete stuff.
I've seen the experimental Gibbs car listed as #3342.
Gerry raises an interesting point: How innovative was the
Interborough, and when? Certainly the road when opened in
1904 was up to the finest standards and practices of electric
traction at the time. The IRT also showed initiative in cars,
not only having the first steel rapid transit fleet, but in
quickly adopting the electric brake (ca 1910) and Low-Voltage
GE "PC" control (1915).
I think it could be argued that IRT innovation ceased more or
less with the 1916 LoV order. The car body design had already
been frozen in 1910. By the 1920s, the IRT had become a very
conservative, traditional company that lagged far behind the
BRT/BMT.
I agree fully that by 1916 the IRT had ceased innovating at its previously hectic pace. Prior to that, however, the pace was rapid, so much so, that two large fleets of cars, the Composites and the Hi Vs were obsoleted before they were 15 years old. Perhaps something that slowed the pace down at the IRT was the need to keep both fleets in service until the 1950s, without the resources to upgrade them to more modern standards or replace them. As far as body design was concerned, the layout was forced by the configuration of many stations with gap fillers and other door specific designs. The few Worlds Fair cars of 1939 were limited to the Corona line by the door arrangement and Steinway gearing. The subways themselves prevented a larger car from being adopted.
The Boston LRV and the R-46 are examples of what happens when you try to catch up with too much technology too fast. The only beneficiaries of those orders were the lawyers. It cost the US two carbuilders!
Add to that, IRT cars kept the old-fashioned metal plate route and destination signs until the R-12s arrived in 1948. The 1938 World's Fair Lo-Vs had roller curtains on the motorman's ends, but still kept the metal plates on their sides. BMT subway cars had roller curtains right from the start, beginning with the BMT standards.
There weren't all that many stations with gap fillers, and then they were on the original Contract One route: Union Square, Brooklyn Bridge, and South Ferry (actually part of Contract Two). Even then, only the southern ends of the platforms at Brooklyn Bridge had gap fillers, and they were rendered unnecessary when the station was lengthened northward in the early 60s.
When the Dual Contracts lines were built, curves at stations were avoided altogether or were very slight. The IND followed this practice.
While the IRT was innovetive, I'd say the BMT was even more so.
OK, I'll try to cut through some of this oddball attitude and
actually take a stab at this. Oh, but first an aside: What do you
mean yourquestion about the August Belmont & John B McDonald?
Not only did no one answer it, but I didn't see you ask it. But
I have seen that question in a popular NYCT online trivia contest (is
it Joe Korrmann's page?). It's hardly a difficult question.
You ask the question of, to paraphrase, "why are today's railfans
(or at least the subset to be found on SubTalk) uninterested in
and uninformed of the 'older' subjects", in other words, if I may
place words in your mouth, why isn't the newer generation of railfans
into what the older generation liked? Or perhaps, and maybe this
is taking it too far, "why don't y'all like what I like?"
Oddly enough, this is a question that railway museums such as ours
face. We find (subjectively and informally, no real studies have
been done on this) that people have a strong interest in "nostaglia"
items that invoke memories of their youth. That's what gives them
that "warm fuzzy feeling inside". People are also interested, to
a lesser degree, in their "roots"...seeing how their parents and
grandparents lived. When you have a collection like we (Branford)
do, concentrating on cars built 1900-1940, the number of people
from whom that experience was primary (their childhood) diminishes
as the years go by.
I suspect that you would have found, among some of the great railfans of previous generations, the same historical tunnel vision for which you chide today's railfans. Were the great railfans of the 1950s
interested in early 19th century railroading? I would suspect no more
or less than the great railfans of the 1990s (try coming to an ERA
meeting if you don't believe there are any...and no I don't consider
myself to be one) are into, e.g., the Brooklyn elevateds of the 1880s
and 1890s.
Of course in any generation there will be a wide range of interests.
I wasn't old enough to say "train" when the Myrtle Avenue shut
down, but my interests are primarily the early part of this century.
The key to retaining the ear of future generations is to collect,
organize and attractively present the information now, before those
first-hand accounts fade away, and, of course (plug plug plug) to
support museums and historical institutions that have committed to
preserving this material.
David, Jeff has hit the nail on the head, at least from this writers prespective.
Steam engines, I don't care too much for them. I have a couple in HO scale, but like my diesels better.
Trolleys, the PCC is for me while the others are of interest, like Jeff said, I rode the PCCs & never saw any of the others in operation. My wife did, but she doesn't care to ride them again.
Subways, Hi-V & Lo-V ... last year I had no idea what some here were talking about, then I rode a Hi-V/Lo-V set at Branford (Oct 98). The Q type, the BMT Standard, the RedBirds .... I can relate to these.
The older equipment, it's OK. When I purchase a ticket at a Museum or buy a book, I don't mind if some of the money goes to restoring those old things.
I find the same conflict in my token/MetroCard hobby ... the token purest don't want anything to do with the guys that collect that plastic stuff, paper is OK, but plastic ... you can't be a real collector if you like that stuff.
You better wake up Dave, because the hobbiest you embrace are dieing off.
Mr t__:^)
Thurston,
You mention, "You better wake up Dave, because the hobbiest you embrace are dieing off". This in part may be true and it could be unfortunate since it is important to understand and preserve history. Even today, many railfan books are published are on the old equipment, lines and cars. There is more books published on these subjects than ever before. Most decisions made by engineers in the design of rapid transit lines, equipment and rolling stock in the first half of this century was less influenced by politics than it is today. NYCT will probably never get the Second Avenue subway into service. The political well power is not there. By the way, I am a Senior Engineer in the industry involved with train control and signaling. In the mid 1980's I was the engineer for US & S to reverify and test the circuits for the Archer Avenue Extension. Only if you were in the industry will you understand and political influence that plagued the Archer Avenue Extension. Nothing but road blocks in the way. I can assure you that newer transit systems go in faster than New York.
Don Harold opened the New York Transit Museum in 1976 for the Bi-Centennial year only. It is still is open today and is expanding in it's tours and annexes. The interest is there and is not dieing.
David, First you may note that I always end my post with a "smilie", this is so the reader doesn't think that I'm responding in a negitive way ... that's easy to do when you write because there's no facial expressions, so the smilie substitutes ;-) [that's a winky]
My only point was that society keeps changing, so what was interesting, important, valuable yesterday, may not be tommorow. If you're a family man i'm sure you know this well. I've found it very interesting that things I though were going in one ear and out the other are all of a sudden important to my 4 kids. S-o-o-o-o we'er listing to you, but for now I prefer a Redbird to a Q type :-|
[that's a blank stare, no facial expression]
Another indication of the changes in society, re buffs, is the absence of Trolley & Passenger rail magazines. I have several different ones that got smaller & smaller then went out of production :-(
Well, David I glad you're not mad at me or the rest of us. This site is a great place to exchange ideas ... Thanks Dave P.
Mr t__:^)
Thurston,
I agreed that society and times are changing. In the railway signal industry we are getting away from relays and using microprocessors. Yes, I'm a family man with a son in college.
Thurston, what do you do for a living? Are you in the industry?
What are your specific interests in NYCT. Did you know that I worked closely with Bernie Greenberg on his Interlocking program on nycsubway.org through hyperlink. Look at credits.
Who is this Motorman Al? Maybe he will calm down. Read his message.
Thanks for your understanding.
David, where are you in the industry? Did you go to Brooklyn Tech with Bernie? Tell me about the special car used by VIPs.
Jeff H.,
Your collection of rapid transit cars at BERA is nothing but terrific. I haven't been to BERA (Shoreline) since 1988. At that time I received a personal tour by Ted Eickman and Bill Wall of the Mineola, IRT Motorman Instruction cars 884, G Trailer, BRT Motorman Instruction car 999, Lo-V, R-17 6688 and many others. With the limited funds you guys have, you people do a great job. What is your involvement there?
I was not trying to affend anyone in my note. It seems that it happened anyway. I was trying to stirup interest in the history aspect of the IRT and Beach's subway. I think it is important for railfans today to understand the history in order that the present can be appreciated. Most things done today are an evolution from the past. This is especially true in the train control and signal industry. BERA is the greatest representation of the history end. CONGRATULATIONS.
Jeff, do you work in the industry? You seem to be knowledgeable in railway signaling.
What is the latest story on the restoration of the Mineola car? Is it still at BERA?
My involvement in BERA: I'm on the Board of Trustees. I'm the
webmaster. I'm currently the primary maintenance person for
the operable rapid transit fleet. We also have a few signals and
I help maintain those.
I think I gave an account of the Mineola a few days ago in a
different thread. I'll do it again and hopefully be consistent.
The Mineola was stored outdoors for many years prior to coming
up to Branford. It was, I believe, stored on a gentleman's estate
and used a hangout away from his wife. After arriving on the
property, it was a few years before an indoor storage spot was
ready for it.
The car is an example of the fine wood craftsmanship typical of
that era. All the years of exposure to the elements took a toll,
although not always a predictable one. There are places in the
car where the wood seems almost factory-fresh, and only a few feet
away a large piece of lumber will be completely rotted through.
Also, all of the below-the-floor major equipment: group switch,
compressor, trucks and traction motors, are long, long gone.
Over the years we have acquired most of the necessary hardware
which we believe to be historically equivalent and correct for
the car.
The museum has engaged the services of several experts in wood
restoration of this type -- and there are only a few in the
country, and received varying estimates of the material and labor
costs for the body work. It is a daunting figure, certainly beyond
our usual budgetary means, but the looming centennial of the IRT
provides a strong fundraising lever.
Yes, the car is at BERA. When the funding has been secured and
a contractor selected, it might happen that the car body is shipped
off the property to be worked on elsewhere. It is also possible that
the work will be done on-site. At this point it's just speculation.
As for the move of car "G", I was not actually present. The account
I gave was related to me directly by the RTO supervisor who handled
the movement of the car.
If that supervisor would happen to be "B. W." give him my regards
[Why don't you guys study real history of the New York subway and elevated lines and not this recent stuff which is boring. How about Alfred Ely Beach's subway. You guys probably don't know of him.]
Gotta disagree on this one. Most everyone who's at all knowledgeable about the subway knows about Beach. His experimental subway has been well-documented and is a central part of subway history.
It's too bad Rosenthal wasn't around in Alfred Eli Beach's day.
Sounds like this guys blows more hot air that Beach's pneumatic fans. What do you need, a prize? I'd kick you off of my train.\
Anyways, there is a new secret transit project unde (a la Mineola), a 1 car train, elegantly styled, designed to shuttle VIPs around the city completely unbeknowest to all straphangers. Let's see what you know about that one.
I was wondering Motorman Al how long you have been a motorman? Calm down, I was only trying to stir up interest in Alfred Ely Beach and others. You are blowing things out of portion. I do know the New York City very well.
Let's turn you message into a friendship.
I would like to know about the new subway to car to carry VIP's around town. Maybe, it's a R62A which will work on all divisions.
By the way, do you know about Communications Based Train Control (CBTC). It will happen on the Canarsie line. Check out the web site www.tsd.org. By reading this site you can learn more about the future of NYCT.
What are your interests in NYCT? Maybe you and I can strike up a good conversation.
What lines do you operate on?
Anybody know where I can obtain old NJ Transit (and possibly Public Service) bus schedules?
I tried contacting NJ Transit's website and I was told that they don't have any.
Are there any archives of some sort from where I can purchase them?
Thanks
If you didn't know, I am going on a trip over the subways. I will try to ride the intire subway with one fair. I will also try to brake the record at fastest time. (I Belive the standing time is somewhere around 18 hours) I would have a frend come and film the trip, and I'll put the hole thing on public access. While ridding I would give some facts about the subway and point out abanden stations. So over the next week if you see a kid with a camra being pointed at him, it's most likeky me.
P.S. I need a little help with a tittle. If you could give me any suggestions a would appreate it.
Thank You
Patrick Gerrity (AKA P Gitty)
Pat, Why not start your ride on the surface (bus), get your FREE transfer, then continue traveling the rails ... it'll raise the bar, i.e. now those that follow will have to get more creative to break you mark ... good luck.
Mr t__:^)
It seems to me that since the ability to transfer between the outer ends of the J and E came to be that there has been no official record established. Thus any time you can document may stand as a 'new' "modern record". At least until the Queens Plaza connection opens or the Manhattan Bridge reopens :)
Good Luck
I saw an article in the Times today talking about the PA's plan for the JFK rail link. Supposedly, this BS system won't even be direct and will make people change at Jamaica even though there is a direct connection between a JFK rail loop and the A line at Howard Beach. Somehow it also invloves an new elevated structure through St Albans and the area eventually. At the community meeting no one but members of the PA supported the idea and the mayor has already given approval.
Just wanted to vent over the idiocy and wastefulness of thr POrt Authority and New Jersey's control over New Yorks resources.
Dont forget that multi-million dollar PA tunnel to nowhere some years back in a vague attempt to link JFK and LGA.
Residents of the area don't want a monorail through their neighborhood. Anything other than a one-seat ride is a bad idea, but right bnow there doesn't seem to be a viable option.
There was a much better plan--called Apple Corridor--that would have utilized the LIRR tracks from about 63rd Drive to Howard Beach. NIMBYs voiced heated opposition.
The NIMBYs of South Jamaica and St Albans also object to the monorail--but it seems that some NIMBYs have more say than others.
I think you have more then one plan mixed togather ...
The driverless JFK light-rail goes up the Van Wyke to Jamaica.
One of the five new lines would use one of the two LIRR Babylon lines from Jamaica to the city line:
- Would incl. St Albans station vs. Laurelton & Locust Manor
That line would also use/share the LIRR branch from Jamaica to Atlantic Ave in Brooklyn.
Back to you orig. waste thread ... only the JFK loop & connection to the IND Howard Beach station is authorized at this point ... so there's years ahead where anything can happen. I would say that most on this site feel as you, that it should be intergrated with the LIRR somehow so that it either continues to the OTHER airport or to Manhattan.
Mr t__:^)
There is still a proposal that has a slim chance of being considered that would use the Rockaway Branch ROW from JFK to Jamacia for a one-seat ride from Penn Station to JFK; this plan is refered to as the Apple Corridor, and is unrelated to the RPA plan.
-Hank
But the Rockaway ROW doesn't go to Jamaica, it goes to the LIRR main in the Rego Park area (there's the remains of a duck under there).
(I haven't seen the plan so pardon my absence of knowledge ... you seem to be saying that it goes North for a while then leaves the ROW to go East ???)
Mr t__:^)
I may be missing something here but as a lifelong NYC resident I still can't understand why we can send a man to the moon but not build a short track connection from Howard Beach to JFK. Admittedly the IND Fulton St Line is the long way around, extending the Rockaway Line north to Whitepot Junction would have made more sense. Yet it would still be a one seat ride to Manhatan's Central Business District rather than the "train to the monorail to the plane." Didn't we make this mistake with the JFK Express.
Redbird
You're right of course ... Larry & others have given reasons for it. It is realy said that all these public agencies don't seem interested in providing SERVICE. If they're just going to MANAGE the existing plant ... why do we need so many of them ????
Others have also commented about what is being done in other cities that are being strangled by the auto/truck traffic. Even NJ has undertaken major programs. I hope they go forward with the 2nd Ave line, even if it's just 1/2 of it to start (upper or lower).
That would be a beginning ... maybe folks in the Bronx, Brooklyn & SI would rise up & demand more mass transit in their back yards ... well there is always hope.
Mr t__:^)
Redbird, thats exactly my point. The JFK express, and what an express it was, wasn't useful especially because of the bus transfer at HB. The only difference now is that instead of a bus, you have a monorail from the PA.
I actually used the subway to get hme from JFK a year or so ago. The worst part about it was the bus from the terminal to the station. Ill-explained, somehat redundant bus network, a driver with a horrible attitude that hit every pothole, and there were a lot of them, and a bus that sounded that it was about to fall apart with every pothole.
To hell with NIMBY, drive a one-track spur through HB and correct this problem once and for all...
I think your commonsense issues are missing a couple of political absurdities.
1) The line will be financed in part by a special tax on airline passengers. In exchange, the airlines have insisted that it not be part of any other mass transit system, and be usable only by those heading to and from the airport.
2) NYC representatives at the state level care about money for "their" non-profits, not transportation. Transportation is something they trade away. A Long Islander has held the leadership of the state legislature's transportation committee for 30+ years. The spur to Jamaica is to serve LI. Long Islanders may not ever use it, but they like the idea of empty transit vehicles going to and fro in case they ever want to.
"The line will be financed in part by a special tax on airline passengers. In exchange, the airlines have insisted that it not be part of any other mass transit system, and be usable only by those heading to and from the airport."
Haven't the airlines realized how useful an airport railway is to them from their experience with it in other cities -- cities where there was no hog-tying requirement of exclusivity?
An exclusive service, with a premium fare, cuts out the crowd that really uses the airport train, even more so than business passengers: the airline and airport employees, many of whom do not have an automobile available and a good number of whom cannot afford to regularly pay a premium fare to the airport.
Nowhere else that a train runs to the airport have the airlines insisted on segregated service. Boston, Philadelphia, Baltimore, Washington, Atlanta, Cleveland, Chicago, St. Louis, and San Francisco all have REGULAR train service to the airport. What is so different about New York City?
Just to pick nits-- San Francisco doesn't have rail service to the airport. Construction of a BART extension to serve SFO is muddled in as deep a political quagmire as the New York proposals have been. At least I hear they have broken ground for the BART extension but the controversy is still raging.
[Just to pick nits-- San Francisco doesn't have rail service to the airport.]
Nor does Boston. There's a bus shuttle required.
"Nowhere else that a train runs to the airport have the airlines insisted on segregated service. Boston, Philadelphia, Baltimore,
Washington, Atlanta, Cleveland, Chicago, St. Louis, and San Francisco all have REGULAR train service to the airport. What
is so different about New York City?"
John, the answer to your question is the subject of the intial message intiated by myself, the Port Authority...
But according to what I've read on this board and elsewhere, it is the **airlines** that are insisting on a segregated system, not the Port Authority. The same airlines operate in cities where the train service to the airport is part of the regular transit operation and is not a special service. The same airlines SHOULD realize the advantage to them when airline and airport workers can commute to and from the airport without fighting traffic and at regular fare (rather than the premium price of a segregated service).
Kev: It's interesting that you should mention that. In October of last year I visted JFK and found that there was a new sub-contractor for the bus services;Caravan Transportation. While I was at the airport the intra-airport buses were far and few between. A little later I was at Howard Beach sitting on one of their buses for 25 minutes, apparently the driver went on a break and there was no one to relieve him even though there were supervisors from Caravan there.Other buses (Terminal Loop B and Employee Shuttles) came and went but no one made any attempt to re-route a bus to the Terminal A Loop. Not only were there airline passengers trying to get a flight but there were airport employees who were going to be late for work. I finally got disgusted and took the reliable New York City Subway (A train,R-38) which did come on time and had a nice ride to East New York.
Regards,Redbird
The 6th Avenue IND station at 14th St isn't express, right?
I was looking thorugh the R-32 photos(#76) and saw the caption "14th St(B)-11/14/70"
Did it stop there then?
[The 6th Avenue IND station at 14th St isn't express, right?
I was looking thorugh the R-32 photos(#76) and saw the caption "14th St(B)-11/14/70"
Did it stop there then?]
14th Street is strictly a local station for the F train. The 6th Avenue expresses use a separate tunnel and can't even be seen going through the station - or more correctly stations, as the Brooklyn- and Queens-bound F platforms are physically separate. I suppose expresses have been diverted to the local tracks, but that's probably uncommon.
Why was it never built express like it's western counterpart?
The main problem in building the 6th avenue subway involved the PATH trains already situated under Sixth Avenue. The local tracks were built on the outside of the PATH tracks for the most part; the expresses had to go underneath them in a separate tunnel.
Some of the F stations, although they appear separate for uptown and downtown trains, are actually 4-track stations. With the walls removed, there would be two island platforms, one for downtown PATH and F trains, the other for the uptown.
The main problem in building the 6th avenue subway involved the PATH trains already situated under Sixth Avenue. The local tracks were built on the outside of the PATH tracks for the most part; the expresses had to go underneath them in a separate tunnel.
Some of the local stations, although they appear separate for uptown and downtown trains, are actually 4-track stations. With the walls removed, there would be two island platforms, one for downtown PATH and F trains, the other for the uptown.
Not sure why they built the 14th street station local; I'm sure it was probably just simpler because of the track layout.
And probably because the 6th Av line is almost all express stations anyway. If 14th was express, then 23rd would be the only local.
Which is the way the 8th Ave. line is set up -- 23rd is the only local stop between 42nd and West Fourth.
Back in the 70s the B ran local during non-rush to 57th St. - 6th Ave. Rush hours it would run on the express track with the D and continue to 168th-Washington Heights while the late, lamented KK train would handle the 57th-6th run.
I suppose there's one good thing about having 14th Street as a local station - the terrific express run between W4th and 34th :-)
Especially if you're up front aboard a Slant R40Q!
Wayne (love those Slant R40s)
Those express tracks under the mess on 6th Av. were a fairly recent addition. They opened about the same time as the Chrystie St. Connection. Prior to that the inner tracks ended at 34th St. and reappeared north of W. 4th. The service was primarily focused on the D which was the only through line (to Coney Island via Culver). F and B service terminated at either Broadway Lafayette or 34th St. Since all stops north of 34th served all tracks, there was no need for expresses or locals. The southbound tracks cross over each other between 47-50 and 42, facilitating the tie-in with the 53rd St. line.
The tunnels near 34th St. are really stacked, with the Broadway Line nearest the surface crossing at Broadway and the 6th Av. line below. The PATH tunnels end at 33rd St. Station with the 6th Av. line below and the 33rd St. East River Tubes still deeper. The 6th Av Local tracks then rise up outside the PATH tracks, while the 6th Av. express tracks remain below. Next comes the second pair of East River Tubes at 31st St. From this point to south of 23rd St. the configuaation remains the same, but the 14th st. line passes under the PATH and Local tracks at 14th St. while the express tracks dive even deeper. Next the local tracks descend to join the rising express tracks, while PATH turns off to the west above and the 8th Av. line comes in from the west to replace it. Add to that an abandoned PATH station at 19th St. and you have a very complex series of tunnels and stations which must dovetail with each other, unseen to the public above. REMEMBER too that most of this was constructed with the 6th Av. El rumbling ABOVE the same street, plus the usual maze of water mains, sewers, steam pipes, cables and other underground stuff!
Does anyone know if there is a map of 6th Avenue comparable to Joe Brennan's wonderful map of all 6 tracks under Flatbush Avenue in Brooklyn, which includes a profile view of the lines? (http://www.nycsubway.org/histmaps/IRTBrooklynC3.gif) It would be very interesting and useful to this discussion. I wish that I had the time and recources to make one if it does not exist.
I am not convinced that the Hudson Tubes stations are behind the IND platform-side walls at 14th Street or behind the IND track-side walls at 23rd Street. I think that PATH is higher than and to the south of the local IND platform at 14th Street and deeper than the IND 23rd Street local platform. (The IND is one level below the street at 23rd Street, while there is a mezzanine between the platform and the street at 14th Street. It seems to be the reverse for PATH.)
I have counted the steps at 14th Street, and the downtown PATH platform is at least a dozen steps closer to the IND mezanine than the IND downtown platform. The downtown PATH station also seems to begin just barely north of 14th Street and head south, while the IND platform has its south end around the middle of 14th Street.
As for 23rd Street, I am pretty sure the PATH station has to be lower than the IND station as it is a flight of stairs down from the IND platform.
> As for 23rd Street, I am pretty sure the PATH station has to be
> lower than the IND station as it is a flight of stairs down from
> the IND platform.
It's a flight down, and then a flight up! You go down from the IND mezzanine and then cross under the downtown Sixth Ave. trackway, and then back up to the PATH tracks. The PATH fare control is in the underpass.
-Dave
My first trip on PATH was out of the 23rd St. station, back when it had the incandesent lights and with an R 1/9 D coming into the station. Definitely one of the weirder subway entrances in the entier MTA/PATH system.
By the way, does anyone know how people got access to the PATH at 23rd St. while they were building the Sixth Ave. local tracks? If the station stayed open during construction, that must have been something to get into.
I think it also bears mentioning that the original plan for the 6th Ave IND was for the local to use the PATH (ex-H&M, aka Hudson Tubes)tracks. Unfortunately for the city, and maybe fortuneately for George McAdoo, the tunnels had been built to the IRT spec. No good for the standard RR-size cars of the IND.
-Hank
That's what I understood, too. It was determined that the cost of retrofitting the PATH tunnels to accommodate 10-foot wide cars would be prohibitive. Consequently, the IND built a two-track line for local trains between 34th and W. 4th Sts., and plans for the express tracks were put on hold for 20 years or so. The express tracks opened for service the day after the Chrystie St. connection opened - November 27, 1967, to be exact. Since the 57th St. station wasn't ready yet, only rush hour B and D trains used the express tracks initially; during non-rush hours, the B terminated at W. 4th St. when it ran (it didn't operate during nights and Sundays), and the D shared the local tracks between W. 4th and 34th Sts. with the F.
Until the Manhattan Bridge changes in the 80's, and then the opening of the 63rd St tunnel, the B was local all times except rush hours.
If I remember correctly, the B was created after Chrystie Street opened in 1967 and it initially ran express along 6th Avenue. Then, when the 57th Street-6th Avenue station opened in 1968, B trains during Non Rush Hours ran to 57th Street ran as a 6th Avenue Local and B trains during Rush Hours ran to 168th Street ran as a 6th Avenue express.
Mike
If I remember correctly, the B was created after Chrystie Street opened in 1967 and it initially ran express along 6th Avenue. Then, when the 57th Street-6th Avenue station opened in 1968, B trains during Non Rush Hours ran to 57th Street as a 6th Avenue Local and B trains during Rush Hours ran to 168th Street as a 6th Avenue express.
Mike
Yes, in the 1970s the B train ran local on 6th Ave. during non-rush hours, terminating at 57th St. These trains stopped at DeKalb Ave., as well as at 14th and 23rd Streets. During rush hours (defined broadly, starting around 3:30 pm for the pm "rush") B trains skipped DeKalb Ave., 14th St. and 23rd St. and ran to 168th St. Washington Heights, making local stops along Central Park West. I think this arrangement was changed some time in the 1980s.
The reason for the rather unsual staiton layouts at 14th and 23d Sts. on the IND 6th Ave. line is historical. When the original 6th Ave. line opened in Dec. 1940, it was four tracks from 53d to 34th Sts, two tracks between 34th and West 4th, and four tracks again south of West 4th to 2nd Ave. The interruption is caused, of course, by the PATH (then Hudson Tubes) tunnel from 33d to 9th Sts. that was already there when the new subway was built. There was room only for two more tracks between 34th and West 4th, and each was built as a separate tunnel alongside PATH. An earlier idea to have the IND "steal" the Hudson Tube tunnel was quashed because PATH
is built to narrow IRT dimensions.
When the DeKalb-Chrystie-6th Ave. project was conceived and built in the 1960's, the gap was closed by building two express tracks far below 6th Ave., below the existing PATH and IND local tracks. The design for this tunnel included provisions for stations at 23d and 14th Sts. This tunnel opened in Nov. 1967.
The 14th/6th Ave. complex, BTW, is the only location in NYC where all four subway systems come together. Here, you have the IND and PATH on the top level, and the BMT Canarsie line in the middle. On the third, lowest, level are the 1967 IND express tracks Finally, a block long underground passageway, constructed originally for the Canarsie Line in 1928, connects the IND, BMT, and PATH to the IRT 1,2,3 station at 14th St. and 7th Ave.
>An earlier idea to have the IND "steal" the Hudson Tube tunnel was quashed because PATH
is built to narrow IRT dimensions.
Plus the fact that the city considered making the IND to IRT dimensions. Then it would have been able to be fully connected to the PATH, and also the IRT, instead of the BMT. That would have been interesting. It would have been the IRT that would have had the numbers replaced with letters, and the BMT would have kept the numbers. I'm sure they would have connected the IND to the IRT, but I just wonder where, though.
(What if the IND had been built to IRT specs?--where would the systems have connected?)
Nevins St. lower level would probably have been the first connection made between the IND and IRT, since it was a provision for the very route later taken by the G along Lafayette Avenue. I would guess the IND would have connected to some of the els in the Bronx, too, as has often been proposed for the 2nd Avenue line.
Technically, they also come together at the World Trade Center, although the only available free transfer there is from the IND to the IRT.
-Hank
Just something I've noticed-
Why do people refer to the 7th Avenue IRT as the 1/2/3 when there is a 9, but refer to the BMT Nassau line as the J/M/Z when only the Z and 9 appear at rush hours?
I've only seen the 9 in a rush hour diamond once-last year during the Lenox Rehab. I picked up a pamphlet about it and alternate routes in Penn Station.
The first use of IRT route numbers began in 1948 with the R-12's but for the next ten years or so only the Flushing Line used them.Widespread use of the #1,2,3 started in the late 1950's when R-types were assigned to the Broadway-7 Av Line and so have been in use for about 40 years. The #9 is a relative newcomer starting I believe in 1989 and sort of a doppelganger to the #1.
The situation with the Nassau St Line is more confusing.Although some Southern Division trains used routes letters prior to Chrystie St;ie M,S,TT the Eastern Division trains used route numbers if R-16's.
The complete use of route letters started in Nov 67 with the openning of Chrystie St .First we had JJ,M,QJ,RJ, then M,QJ,RR, then J,M,R. The 4 Av-Nassau service (R) was replaced by the re-routed M. The Z also is a relatively new service but since the service pattern has been pretty much static for the past ten years the J,M,Z has become commonplace.
Redbird
(As of April 1966 [pre-Chrystie] - Brighton service was "Q" (the day express), "QB" (the bridge), "QT" (the tunnel, the yang to "QB"'s yin), West End was "TT" (Nassau Loop or W.End Shuttle), "T" (the default West End), then there was (and continued to be) "RR" (4th Ave) and the familiar and current-day "N" for the Sea Beach. Franklin Shuttle continued to use #7 on its R11's. I think the "M" Bankers' special had stopped running in 1964 - don't know if any trains ever wore this sign. The Eastern Division continued to use numbers (R16) or nothing at all (BMT Standards and "Q" cars) right up to November 26, 1967. I THINK there were some R27/30s on the Eastern Division prior to Chrystie Street, used only on the #15. I am not sure if they had numbered curtain signs, but I would think that if they ran on the #15 they would have had to.
Wayne
The Bankers specials ran right up to the Wednesday before Chrystie (Thursday was Thanksgiving, Friday it was closed for the reconfiguration). They did display M when R-27-32's were used
The 27/30's never had number signs, and did not run on the Eastern Div until after Chrystie. It was the 16' s that ram there with the numbers.
I was in New York on that very Friday, November 24, 1967, but didn't ride any BMT trains - at least not to Brooklyn. The most significant event that day was my first express jaunt up CPW - on a D train of R-1/9s. My mother wanted to go to this yarn store on the Grand Concourse in the Bronx - Goldman's. I can't recall if the first car had headlights, but do remember that the train coasted for some distance before the motorman reapplied power at about 103rd St. The motors responded with a resounding F# above middle C.
BTW, I was also in New York on July 1, 1968 - a brutally hot day, as I recall. We rode out to LaGuardia to meet my aunt on an E train of R-1/9s whose first car was dark, but at least it didn't break down. Back in those days, you could walk out to the gate area to meet passengers; there were no metal detectors or security checkpoints. We headed back to Mahnattan on the 7 - another first - then on a 1 to Lincoln Center, where my aunt was staying. That afternoon, my mother and I took another trip to the Bronx to that same yarn store, this time on a D of R-32s.
Steve: You bring back some good memories.Back in the later part of the 1960's NYC railfans more or less fell into three groups;the IRT,the BMT and a small but loyal group of IND fans. It was a hard time for trolley fans as the last NYS trolley ran in 1957(QBRY) and trolley systems all over the country either were extinct or closing, much different form the situation today.
I am not trying to leave out the PATH,SIRT or suburban railfans. PATH still required a 40 cent ticket to go to Newark which was collected by the conductor east of Journal Square. SIRT had a plethora of grade crossings. The railroads still had original owner equiptment and bore great names like PRR,NYCRR,NHRR,CNJRR,ELRR and others.In less than a year we had three major rail developements;CNJ Aldene Plan (Apr67),Chrystie St (Nov 67) and the Penn-Central merger (Feb 68). Yes it was an interesting time.
Regards,Redbird
Ahh, those R-4's on the D...I got an especially ancient-looking one N/B out of Kings Highway on September 12, 1970 - we passed up at least two QJ's on our way back into Manhattan via the Bridge...The featured units: #561 (the lead car, with lazy paddle fans), #608, #613, #530, #553, #778, #425!, #695, #639 and #708 at the rear. They groaned a mean F# too as we went from KH to Newkirk but were lower and slower going over the Bridge. They sounded just like the D-Types on the De Kalb curves. They even took the curve out of Grand Street in typical D-train fashion- 30-35MPH.
I was on a B of Slant R40s that duplicated this little feat back in September '97 (before their transfer to the Q). That T.O. showed no fear at all. I also saw a B of Slants back on December 19, although I believe this now considered an anomaly (they're almost all R68As).
Wayne
If I'm not mistaken, Sept. 12, 1970 was a Saturday, which would have meant the QJ went only as far as Broad St. Anyway, do you ever recall seeing an illuminated side destination sign on any R-1/9? Back in 1967, it was still common to see them, but by late 1968 and early 1969, you almost never did. My strongest such memory was while running alongside a southbound D train from 81st St in May of 1967, with "Coney Island" plainly visible as I-beams provided a flickering effect. I also got a big kick out of seeing "Coney Island" backlit in green on the R-32s.
As I recall, the BMT standards also coasted downhill through the 14th St. tunnel. The motorman would reapply power before the train reached the lowest point in the tunnel, whereupon the motors would sing out a resounding F#, gradually rise another whole step as the train picked up speed, and then slowly start dropping in pitch as the train labored uphill.
I'll bet that B train really rumbled along 4th Ave. and then 6th Ave. Those slant R-40s make some noise of their own.
Yes, now the hazy memories are becoming clear - it was the post-Chrystie rides on the "QJ" that I remember as being R27/30 - those prior were invariably R16 - I remember complaining to my Dad about not being able to see out of the porthole front window, and he would pick me up so I could watch. I remember Crescent Street being a very shaky station (it is better now, but the original shed has survived with a new roof and entranceway). We'd occasionally have to change trains there as we would be on a train (#14) that terminated there. I also remember seeing a mixed consist of R16 and R27/30 on the "QJ" back in January of 1969; Jan.29, 1969 to be exact (we were in the Cypress Hills Cem. area for my great-grandmother's burial- she passed away 30 years ago yesterday at 93)
Wayne
I was curious: how were Broadway-Brooklyn trains (#14 and JJ) turned back at Crescent St? How much, if any, dwell time was there? Also, were the side route signs on the R-16s backlit, and if so, what color? As I've said, I rode on those cars only twice and almost never saw them otherwise, so my experience is very limited.
You also mentioned seeing a mixed consist of R-16s, R-27s, and R-30s. Admittedly, those cars looked very much alike, so they would have blended very nicely. There's a new photo in the car section of a pair of R-32s coupled to the end of an RR of R-16s on the Astoria line. So perhaps the R-16s were intermixed more often than originally thought.
Steve: Then as now there was a third track between Crescent St and Cypress Hills for turning back the #14 Broadway-Bklyn Lcls. In those days it could only be accessed from the Crescent St end and ended in a bumper about 2/3 of the way to Cypress Hills Station. Now the center track can be reached from both ends.
I do remember seeing R-16 signs illuminated with a white light for the destination and a green one for the routes I believe, but I was too young at the time to say this is a fact. I do know that the use of the green light did not last long into the 60's. Wayne would probably know.
Regards Redbird
Thanks for the info. It's been a while since I've ridden the Jamaica line; my memory has gotten fuzzy. I had forgotten about that middle track between Crescent St. and Cypress Hills.
End signs on R units were always backlit in white - both route and destination. Side destination signs were originally backlit in green on the R-27s through the R-38s on the IND and BMT, and from at least the R-21s through the R-36s on the IRT. I'm tempted to say the R-16s and R-17s fall into that category, too, but I'm not certain. Only the Triplex units had white or green backlit end signs, depending on whether the train was running via Montague St. tunnel (white) or Manhattan Bridge (green).
You're right: by the 70s, side destination signs, when they were illuminated, were backlit in white. They're not backlit at all now.
Steve: I'm relying on dim memory but I seem to recall that the R-16 with the green lights. I believe that the green light was used for the terminal the train was going to and the white light for the terminal it was coming from.
Redbird
I believe that all cars in the R-16 thru R-38 series had illuminated side signs for destinations only. Green was originally used to denote the actual destination. At the edge of the glass was the decal reading TO: with the arrow below it;this was only visible when the sign was lit. The signs were activated by the position of the Motorman's reverser key. Individual cars could be adjusted by using a key operated switch in the cab. At "loop" terminals,they could be changed by pressing the "Loop Changeover" buttons in the operating cab.
AFAIK,they fell out of use in the late '60's,probably a high maintenance item. Around '71 or '72 there was a cleanup/fixup campaign that saw them returned to working order,with white rather than green lamps.
The R-1/9s also had "TO" decals with arrows on their side sign boxes as well. Their signs were always illuminated in white, using incandescent bulbs. I have seen the key switch in the cab of Shore Line's R-9 1689. Its signs do light up; at least they did in 1980.
My sign box is rigged so that I can light up either sign. I used to have a timer so I could set it to come on while I was out; it was really cool to pull into the garage and see "Coney Island" backlit or whatever terminal the curtain was set to.
I've noticed when the signs are missing, that the R-68's have the sockets for lights in the side destination signs. I don't know why they never used them, and why it seems they have given up on it.
I get the impression that the MTA started to get away from illuminated side destination signs with the arrival of (take it easy, Wayne) the slant R-40s. None of the equipment delivered since then has backlit side signs - at least not to my knowledge.
The Triplex units ushered in backlit destination signs; the R-1/9s followed suit. Back in 1967, it was still common to see illuminated side signs on the R-1/9s. A year later, I almost never saw that. As light bulbs burned out (and they were wired in series), they weren't replaced anymore.
When the R-7s and R-9s were transferred to the Eastern Division in 1968-69, they were fitted with new roller curtains in their side signboxes, and at the same time, the light bulbs used for sign illumination were removed. The philosophy was since the new cars on the way didn't have backlit side signs, they weren't going to bother with that feature on the old cars.
Other postwar rolling stock so equipped still utilized this feature through the 80s, only the fluorescent lights were now white instead of green. During GOH, this feature was done away with; consequently, the side destination signs on the Redbirds, R-32s, and R-38s are no longer backlit. Only the R-44s and R-46s have anything resembling illuminated signs; their electronic displays are unique to New York's subway trains.
I was unaware the R-68s even had light sockets, although it wouldn't surprise me. That same style of sign box is also used on the R-40s, R-42s, and R-62s.
I think the bottom line is that it's more of a maintenance issue, and it may be felt that it's a superfluous feature which isn't all that necessary. Personally, I would much rather see a return of front end destination signs in addition to the route sign, which thankfully the Redbirds still have.
This particular mixed consist I saw was mixed red cars (R16) and black (well, charcoal grey) cars (R27 or R30). It was w/b on the "QJ" line approaching Cypress Hills Cem. sta. They do resemble each other on the outside (except for the storm door windows-R27/30 are rectangular where R16 are round with a bar across the middle). Interiorwise, they are markedly different - seating (both the position and color of the seats- R16: transverse groups in charcoal grey fiberglas, originally red vinylette; R27/30: longitudinal seats in Coral Pink); handholds (R16 are curved; R27/30 are triangular), the light lenses were similar, the R16 had more crosshatched vents in the ceiling panels; there were handholds curving from the lateral seat to the ceiling etc). The interior paint was similar with R27/30 being a little more of a gunpowder blue color and R16 being grey. The fans were the same.
I am trying to recall whether there was green sign lighting on the R16-I seem to recall that there WAS, at least for the destination marker. I don't recall if the route marker was lighted. The R27/R30 cars were lit with white light. I miss those coral pink seats...
Next time you're in NYC, Steve, come to the Museum and see #6387 and #8507 (a widow) on display in their (near-)original conditions.
Wayne
I have seen both of those cars at the Museum. 8507's interior is just the way I remember the R-27/30s. You're right: the R-16s, R-27s, and R-30s looked much more similar exterior-wise than interior-wise, the most significant difference being the transverse seats on the R-16s vs all-longitudinal seating on the R-27/30s.
Here's an interesting question: I had the impression that 6387 and 8507 are coupled together at the Museum, although I may be wrong. I can't recall which direction 8507 is facing with regard to its blind end. Would they be able to m. u. together just as they are; i. e., could a widowed R-27 be coupled at its blind end to an R-16 and still run in m. u.?
Steve: I know this doesn't answer your question but I seem to recall that on the IRT during the middle to late 1960's the single unit cars;i.e.R-17,21,22, could be seen coupled to a single R-26 or R-28, though I couldn't say if one used running dead or not.
Redbird
The #1 Nassau St-Brighton Exp (Bankers Special) ran right up until Chrystie St,if R-Types were used they carried the M designation on the front and side signs.
The #2 Nassau St-4 Av Service also ran until Chrystie St,if R-Types were used M signs were carried in the am rush. In the pm rush M was carried on the front route sign while S Special was carried on the side route signs.
I do not believe that any R-27/30's ran in revenue service on the Eastern Section of the BMT, however I know that about three train sets of either #1 or #3 trains deadheaded from Chamber St to East New York after the am rush and again deheaded back to Chambers St for the pm rush. I remember seeing these deadheads at Broadway-Myrtle Av as it was quite an unusual sight.
Regards,Redbird
And speaking of diamond signs - why isn't the "Z" a diamond sign? Every one I've ever seen has it round in both front-end side roller curtains. Was this just a mistake or were they planning "Z" service beyond the limited rush-hour runs it now makes?
And yes, "Z" service sometimes DOES go the other way, but only as far as Eastern Parkway. I rode one a year or so ago from Broad to Eastern Parkway; it left Chambers about 8:45AM
Wayne
Wayne: I was under the impression that the Z actually operates in both directions during the rush hour, simply making the same stops as the J in the direction of light traffic. I know the TA maps say it only runs in direction of peak traffic but I think this is done to avoid confusion for the public and because there simply isn't time at Broad Street to change the signs.
Regards Redbird
It sounds as if the RJ had the same arrangement during its short-lived run in 1967-68.
At the present time, there are two B trains in the evening hours that run on the F line in Brooklyn and Manhattan. Here's the story. The two trains leave Stillwell ave and operate "lite"(not in service) over the F line to W4st.They go into service at W4st and proceed to 57st/6ave.I have no idea why they do this.Just in case I didn't make it clear, The B makes all stops from W4st to 57st/6ave.On the return trip,it operates via the regular express route unless otherwise told.
Since not too many people are going toward the city that time of evening, they do this to prevent congestion with work trains leaving 36 St. yard going toward Manhattan.
Dave,
If possible, how could one send photos to you to put on the site.
I'll be in town in two weeks and saw a task for me today.
I was going through the car roster page and saw that there are only 6 photos of the R-68!
I will take photos of more, if you can use 'em(R-62's as well).
Now do the R-68's run on any other line than the D/Q?
If you'd like to send photos (and we are desperately lacking of R62 and R68 as you noticed, even R44/46 are pretty slim pickins) you can do the scanning yourself and just email them to me; or write me privately for my address and you can mail them to me and I'll scan them for you.
thanks!
-Dave
I believe some R-68's are on the B now too. Also, if you run into the R110A (on the 2/5) or the R110B (on the C), I'm sure more photos of them would be appreciated also.-Nick
The B and D lines are all-R68 and the N also uses a good deal of them.
I could probably rustle up about a dozen or so R68 (mostly R68A) pictures from my own collection. I'll make note to shoot some more when I'm out on the "B" "D" or "N" lines.
Expect to see a zip file on your doorstep by the end of the weekend.
Wayne
I would like to know if you happen to have bus desination reading signs for NYCT bus routes & if so, can you post it on the subtalk starting with Staten Island & if NYCT happen to add future readings to it, can you add that on to it but can you send it to me in this type of format, here is an example:
S66:ST GEORGE
FERRY
Please note FDNY that I do not give out my e-mail address to anyone so it would be best to post it on the subtalk.
I appreciate it.
Sincerely,
John
Please contact me at smokiecat@webtv.net
It is too numerous to list here,If you need a special route ,,I will help you out
steve
I would appreciate if you can post the express bus readings & if there are future express bus readings, can you post it on the subtalk but post it in this format, for example:
X27:BAY RIDGE
SHORE RD
Sincerely,
John
If anyone is interested there is an hour long speech at http://www.hope.net on metro card hacking. It is in the right hand column under "METROCARD PANEL"You will need the free real audio player to listen to it. Wether you support metro card hacking or not(I don't), it is very interesting. It gets into how the metro card works, etc.. It is however about a year or two old. The man giving the speech is supposed to be the top metrocard hacker in NYC. He says he does work for the MTA, and has for almost 20 yrs. He is accused at the end of being an MTA informer who is spying on Metro Card Hackers. It is interesting.
This hacking idea first got attention some time ago (possibly a year, coinciding with how long this speech's been online). It involved putting a vertical fold in a used-up MetroCard. Somehow that was supposed to trick the readers into thinking there still was a fare remaining. Needless to say, the readers were reprogrammed to reject the cards, and a few people got busted trying to do it.
Hey My called home and my parents said that they rode on the new subway cars the R143's. They said that they had green seats and that the LEd display showed the time as well along with the destinations. I thought they re supposed to tell what side the doors are opening? Well are they now test running it. This happened yesterday on the C line. How long now till the are in service?
I though they were not test running or introducing them until later this year?
If it was on the line, then it was the R-110B test train... the R-143s were just ordered, so they haven't been built yet!
Yep, it was definitely the R110B...they have green seats.-Nick
I just wanted to say that ther is an error on thhis site station by station section. On the G line, you mention Nassau Ave, as having no crossover, when in fact it does have a crossover outside and inside the fare control on the south end of the station. I just wanted to bring this to your attention.
When we go to do the "G" line photo shoot on January 28, 1999, I will put this on my list of things to be checked out and will correct the blurb if necessary. We've already made a few other corrections to that section...
Wayne
There are many, many more errors in the "station by station" site. I e-mailed in 4-5 pages of errors I found, mostly on the Broadway/Brooklyn, Fulton St. and IRT Broadway lines, but not a one has been corrected.
Please e-mail me the list and I'll check out the stations mentioned and e-mail you a reply.
If there are errors, I'll send a revision to Dave P-our webmaster. Better yet- if you want to visit those stations together also let me know. The IND especially has many closed exits and there is evidence at the stations such as tile covered/painted over. five square patches at the ceiling which marked five incandescent bulbs which denoted a styairway. Alaso on the IND there are beams in the ceiling running parallel to the tracks- that too denotes a stairway-active or removed.
Also please rememner- the subway is a dynamic system- exits are closed permanently or termporarily.
I am not exactly a teenager and have ridden the system since the 1950s--the Lo V cars were still running when I started riding as were the BMT triplexes and standards. I remember when the IRT also ran the Hi V cars with their "phone cord" type cables on the doors which was visible when the doors were open (the door pockets were glass.)
We thank you for your interest in the site.
I was just checking if you have already got the January 1999 Agenda & if so, can you please post it on the subtalk.
I appreciate it.
Sincerely,
John
The agenda is late this month
I spoke to my connection,,I should have it within the next 2 weeks
It usually comes out ,,bet the 15 and the 20 of each month
Steve
I just wanted to know if you still have the express bus readings for Staten Island & Brooklyn & if so, can you please post it on the subtalk, in addition, if NYCT added future express bus readings for those two boroughs, add that on as well.
I appreciate it.
Sincerely,
John
Please contact me ,,directly,,at smokiecat@webtv.net
There are too too many to post here
The agenda is the only thing that will be posted in SubTalk
Unfortunately, reading through the items posted on Subtalk in the last couple of weeks, there has been a series of posts where personal attacks have gotten in the way of the original question asked. My system is not equipped with a fire extinguisher, nor do I plan to equip it with a flame thrower. Steve, from Jamaica Shop, has been a frequent victim, as have lawyers, subway middle managers and posters who really only want to find out some information about a subway issue.
The world is not all sweetness and light - but NYCT, despite itself, does a pretty good job of moving millions of people. And it's the people out there in the trenches who make that happen.
Whether or not we love them, lawyers are a necessity, and someone to be damned grateful for when you really need one!
If someone out there asks a question, however dumb - or however many times asked, it's because that individual either wants to know the answer or wants to share that answer with the rest of the posters and have a little fun doing it!
Lastly, its the insights from the people on the trains and in the shops, such as bill and Steve, who provide some of the most accurate information about the system. We should be thankful about their insights, rather than castigate them for representing the system or explaining its way of doing things.
Dave Pirman has done a great job putting this site together (it blows away a lot of similar sites), despite the monetary cost and a slow computer and so on. PLEASE DON'T TURN IT INTO A GARBAGE DUMP!!!!
Gerry has said what Dave and others have also said: keep it civil, and NO off topic or inflamatory stuff.
That said, there are MANY posters, like Gerry, Steve, SteveB, and a carload of others who are civil, post replies that are insiteful and add to the knowledge of others who visit Subtalk. I myself have benefited from the various viewpoints.
Dave does a wonderful job (and MUCH out of his own pocket.) that is not driven bt money. It's the love of something that many don't stop to consider what life would be without it.
It's why people like Gerry, Todd, and even myself devote considerable time and effort (and money) at various homes for aged traction equipment.
(30)
I agree with Dan Lawrence, let's keep it civil. This Subtalk is to talk about subways around the world. If you want to go off topic or say inflamatory stuff please go somewhere else.
Charlie Muller of the Bronx.
I'd like to take this opportunity to show my support to those who wish to keep this site civil. There is no place here for personal invective or other bile-spouting. If you wish to sling mud at each other or rake each other over the coals, please don't do it here; that's what we have E-mail for. If you don't have e-mail, restraint of tongue and keyboard are most certainly in order. This is a special place; I am among those who have made many new friends here. Let's keep it that way for all.
Wayne L Whitehorne
I have to agree with Wayne and the others who have spoken out against the rude and sarcastic comments some of the posters use. Unfortunately this is not a new trend among railfans. There have always been those who seem to lord what knowledge they have over others and are quick to criticize the young or uninformed. We all follow our particular interests,for some of us it is history,others equiptment,still others stations. We are particularly fortunate that many contributors to this site work in the transit industry and so are "in the trenches" daily. Their insight and expertise cannot be ignored. We are also fortunate that many younger fans are contributors as they have the time to spend much more time riding the system and bringing us back current news,those of us who are older and working 40 hours a week simply don't have the time to do this and really appreciate their input. I get especially upset when I hear comments like ridiculous, stupid and the like. I have been mistaken on some points and was grateful to receive civil corrections from colleagues who were more knowledgeable. As to whether or not or not all the really good railfans are gone I can only say this. Others have been here before us and will be here after we are gone. I'm sure that back in the old days when light rail meant horsecars, there were buffs who knew the kind of horses and how many were stabled at each barn, they probably knew the horse's names too. I apoligize for such a long post but I felt this had to be said. Thanks to Dave Pirmann also for a most excellent website which I am learning consumes a considerable amount of time and money to keep in operation.
Regards,Redbird
The quality of information on this board is excelent and I really enjoy it. It is nice that people who know what they are talking about take the time to share their information with us that are not so knowlegable about, and particualty the technical information. Some people get some ideas in their heads and can't let the truth get in the way of what they heard. It's their problem but we sometimes have to listen to it.
I have been to traction museums where volunteers are answering questions of gurest with incorect information. I bite my toung and move on not wanting to contradict them and embarase them. They may be repeating misinformation that they have heard or are just improvising.
Good information is hard to find, thats why I love this site. By the Way, I know who is telling the truth and who is winging it when I read it. Thanks to Dave and all of the regulars who keep this site informative and accurate.
I can relate to hearing erroneous information at trolley museums. The very first time I was at Shore Line, a very young volunteer was leading a tour through the barns and referred to North Shore interurban car #709 as a PCC. Less than a minute later, he took the group past Brooklyn's PCC #1001 and referred to it as something other than a PCC (I don't recall specifically what he referred to it as).
There was another museum member who was a conductor on the 7 at the time (August 1980). Could it be one of our present Subtalkers?
At the Seashore Trolley Museum we are constantly working to improve the quality of our tours. A few years ago, our Visitor Experience Committee and Operations, Safety, and Training Committee worked together to develop a full guided tour (that incorporates a narrated main line ride and shuttle ride to one of our exhibit barns). We have provided scripts to our tour guides, though they are encouraged to vary the talk based upon the make-up of the group (where people are from, if there are repeats, etc.). We do our best to "monitor" the facts and provide suggestions for improvement to our guides.
Note that the vast majority of our guides are also our operators/conductors. We would be very pleased to have some volunteers who are interested in serving primarily as docents (guides), but they're tough to find! As with most volunteer operations, we're usually pretty well staffed on the weekends, and very thin during the weekdays, especially outside of peak summer vacation season.
So... that being said... anyone interested in joining our ranks of volunteers (tour guide, operator/conductor, etc.) should send an email to carshop@gwi.net for more information. Our training classes begin the last weekend in April. We're located about 90 minutes north of Boston, and yes, we have a number of "regulars" who come from as far away as New York City and Philadelphia! Last year, a SubTalker joined Seashore for the first time, and became one of our regulars.
I did not intend to pick on museums in my post. God bless all of the volunteers that work very hard to preserve a rich heritage of traction.
My comment was to point out the fact that there is a lot of information out there to digest, some of it very technical. All of the museums that I have had contact with do a great job at that, and the Association of Railway Museums newsletter that I receive dedicates a great deal of space in each issue talking about recruiting, training and retaining good people.
I hope to visit seashore on my next trip east.
ps. A good freind of mine reminds me, everyone wants to operate the train but no body wants to clear brush from the ROW. Both are important though.
At Seashore we've learned that "tech talk" is really only of interest to rail fans, and that's a very small percentage of our visitors. When a rail fan visits of course we're willing and able to tell all. But for our regular public tours, the philosophy is to relate trolleys (and rapid transit and buses since we have them too) to people's lives, through an historical context. We talk, for example, about how the growth of mass transporation, especially the streetcar, changed the nature of the city and suburbs. We weave in personal context wherever possible - for example - how a city streetcar served as a school bus for many. Or how a suburban route would allow a farm family to get supplies. And so on... Today as an Instructor, my job is to teach our new operators how to operate the cars safely, as well as communicate the importance of our Museum and its collection to our visitors, so that they'll support us by coming back, telling their friends, and possibly even donating or joining.
When I joined Seashore 12 years ago (after hearing they were bringing R4 #800 and R7 #1440 north!), my first tour included descriptions of the special light bulbs used and the difference between facing point and trailing point switches. I was fascinated, but the non-rail fan families on board were, well, bored. Things sure are different now!
This change at Seashore has done wonders for "customer satisfaction." Perhaps my colleagues from Baltimore, Shoreline, Warehouse Point, and other museums would like to offer how their museums approach this?
At BSM we relate a bit about the car the visitor is on. i.e "you are on car 1050, built 100 years ago in 1898." We then briefly relate what the streetcar did for Baltimore, how the city grew on its streetcar lines. Questions are, of course, always welcome. Information about the Museum is contained in the Visitor's Guide, which every visitor receives when the pay admission. The guide has capsule car information, as well as the usual non-profit stuff. It also includes a membership application, which has recruited a number of new members.
As the car talk at 28th Street Loop ends, the operator/motorman invites any further questions to take place at the Visitor Center (North Avenue Loop). These usually ilicit both streetcar history and questions about Baltimore. Car house tours are given, a handout of general car info is given to each trainman.
New trainees are cautioned in the Informational Talk part of the course that the public is NOT interested in the things that railfans are.
You have found the key to most visitors and most visitors are not "Railfans" per say.
A typical visit should be a lot of fun, a little history and a nice day to remember.
Speaking of technical - I found that discussion of GE vs westinghouse, MCM Vs SCM, etc facinating. Kinda like Ford V Chevy :) But everytime someone mentioned whatever relay, I kept looking for my schematic and hey! I don't have one!!! Can someone possibley scan in the schematics for these things so the NEXT time we start talking, those of us with an interest can pull it up and follow along? I know these things are *complicated*, but I can probbly follow it if I looked at one...
Speaking of Museums. Hey Todd - WATCH OUT!!! I got my Wide Glide over Xmas break and it looks like I'll be taking a few real trips this summer...I'll have to mail you in a bit about comming up there for a day or so - I wanna see what pics I can get of that MP-54, maybe I'll do a web page on it. Who knows, maybe it'll stimulate some interest in it.... Pictures of my new bike will be posted in a few weeks in case anyone cares ;)
Unfortunately, those schematics are huge, D or E size prints, or books of letter, legal or 11x17 pages. I do have a 3 page Boston PCC schematic in letter size. E-mail me your address and I will send it to you. Available in several versions (GE(17KM12(tread brake/drum brake/all electric)/MCM)/West(tread brake/drum brake))
Ah yes nothing finer then a ride in a open/summer trolley on a warm afternoon ...
Mr t__:^)
Do they talk about the 5 foot, 4 (or 4.5) inch gauge which was unique to Baltimore?
I personally would love to serve as a tour guide at a museum, or operator, or conductor in the case of R-1/9s (love those trigger boxes!). However, I could see myself getting long-winded, especially when it came to describing a personal favorite car. I'd really have to watch myself and not start spewing out "gee whiz" facts.
Well, since Todd invited discussion from his colleagues ....
Todd, I think you'll find almost universal the realization
among railway museums that you need to present more than just
a ride. Branford (Shore Line) was one of the early adopters
of the visitor-centric approach, over 20 years ago.
As the "trolley era" recedes into the past, a larger percentage
of the visitors have no memory or connection with what you are
exhibiting. They make that connection by visualizing how their
lives would have been affected had they been living in the era.
As a few people wisely noted, tech facts are boring and even
intimidating to the average visitor. We even go so far as to
assure our tour guides that it's OK not to know exact dates
on every piece of equipment. Sometimes major factual errors
slip through, such as Steve B's example of the North Shore PCC :)
Usually another member will take the errant tour guide aside
later, out of earshot of the public, and correct the mistake.
Btw, Baltimore Streetcar Museum does a great job. It helps that
they have a very tightly focused mission: Baltimore. It makes
the local history angle a lot more playable then when your target
audience spans a 200 mile radius. Hey Dan (Lawrence): How's 3715
doing?
<among railway museums that you need to present more than just
a ride. Branford (Shore Line) was one of the early adopters
of the visitor-centric approach, over 20 years ago.
As the "trolley era" recedes into the past, a larger percentage
of the visitors have no memory or connection with what you are
exhibiting. They make that connection by visualizing how their
lives would have been affected had they been living in the era.
As a few people wisely noted, tech facts are boring and even
intimidating to the average visitor. >>
I certainly agree that you need to present more than just a ride, the key ingredient is what we do on that ride. You are correct that most of our visitors(I am one of Todd's colleagues at Seashore) do not have the connection with what we are exhibiting. That is the toughest job our tour guides have. If we can make that connection, the visitor will take something home with them. That is my goal when I give tours. I try and relate something too them(whether they take public transit to work, where they live(to show them if we have any cars from their area or so they can understand how trolleys expanded their city), the development of trolley/amusement parks(by metioning specific parks and that they were built by trolley companies, etc.) In fact, some of us are working right now on how to give our visitors a better experience in 1999 as we will be celebrating our 60th anniversary.
I volunteered last summer at Shoreline and enjoyed it so much I can't wait to do it again this summer. I would keep my tours very simple and to the point presenting the history of streetcars from horsedrawn to light rail today. Generally your visitors aren't big time buffs so there is no need to get very technical. However when I do get a buff then I can direct more technical and detailed answers to that person. Children are very hard to keep focused on your tour since all they are really interested in is the ride itself so with the big groups of children (schools,camps, etc) I would really keep it short and sweet. The whole point to the museums is to be hospital and have fun and not long winded and boring, and your group will see your enthusiasm. My year ended with a letter mentioning me to the museum as being jovial which really made it all worth it. I have found that all the museums I have visited always have these types of folks who volunteer. My favorite museum however that has a very hospital group is the Baltimore streetcar museum which is about a four hour ride from where I live but is worth it!@
Fernando brings out an interesting aspect of doing tours - children.
At Seashore we use some of the following:
Connect the mail car with Mr. McFeeley (mailman on Mr. Rogers Neighborhood). He was on the car when he visited STM.
Use of upper deck by fishermen on Blackpool car. Crews would hose down after trip - thus sparse appointments.
Brooklyn car and Trolley Dodgers.
Use of City of Manchester as a children's playhouse after retirement.
Simple things which hook to things familiar to children and their imaginations. Most of all though they love the ride on an open car!
I would have to agree with Fernando Perez. At the Transit Museum, tour guides are taught to be short and sweet. Basically, you want to inform the visitor of important items relating to the history of transportation (NYC that is). This technical talk is fine provided that you're talking to all the right people who know what you're talking about. To be honest, I don't consider myself to be very big on the technical stuff. I'll leave that to guys like Jeff H. and Steve who very good insight on operations in the NYCT system. I know a little bit about the mechanics of subway trains, but nothing like those who have had involvement in NYCT. I'm a dedicated historian and are considered as such even though some may call me a railfan (buff). The railfan (buff)terminology is acceptable considering that I keep up to date with current events in the various transit/commuter rail systems. And no "antibuffs" can slam us for an interest that we have. Just to make a long story short, tour guides at the Transit Museum also modify their tours based on the age of that particular group. What I might say to adults, is not necessarily what I might say to children of 7 or 8 years of age. I'm often praised for my knowledge of the NYC subway system. It doesn't mean that I know everything. I do make mistakes on certain facts and learn the right stuff from my fellow colleagues. Tours are something that the guides can always make improvements on.
For Fernando: I started helping in the car barn at Branford. Hopefully, I might become a tour guide there if I can get the streetcar training in March.
Sincerely,
A Dedicated Historian (Buff)
Fernando,
You hit the nail on the head....HAVE FUN! I joined Seashore three years ago, and was primarily interested in operating(especially 800/1440 :)). Part of the job is being a tour guide, which I was extremely nervous about at first, but have gotten better over the years. I am not a technical whiz, and have honestly not been very enthusiastic about learing the history, but I have studied. My turning point during my first year. was I realized I was saying the same things at the same points during the tours. I bored myself! I tried to put myself in the visitor's shoes...and connect to them. If I can share my enthusiasm with them, they will respond(and have). I learned it goes over a heck of a lot better to talk "with" them instead of talking "to" them.
Jeremy
I agree wholeheartedly. I know in the past Ive been guilty of some bad stuff, but it is because of this page that I have met so many who share the same interest as myself like Gerry,Jeff H, Dan, Adam, George B. and Subway buff and it was all possible because of this page. And I hope to meet more of you in future events and meetings and expand my horizons even more.
Please don't spoil it. It is terrific site and one which has given me a lot of pleasure. It has prompted me to make three trips to NY and on the last I had the honour of meeting up with one of the site's main contributors. My sincerest thanks to the host for producing a site to be proud of.
I do agree with Gerry also. This forum was designed to link together a very unique brand of person--The transit buff and we all owe Dave Pirmann a big debt of gratitude for uniting all of us-young and old alike. Novices and subject matter experts. Once again hats off to Steve, Wayne, Thurston and everyone else who contributes their knowledge and insights to this forum.
Gonzo
I agree totally, and although I have perhaps spoken intemperately once or twice, I'll resist that temptation to do so in the future. This forum has become a tremendous source of relaxation for me as well as a great source of information. I've used much of the constructive feedback I get at my work location too. Thanks to all who have participated....
Not too shortly ago, I heard that the R143 had been ordered but am unaware of their numbers!
Does anyone know how many MTA actually ordered and when they will be introduced?
Thanks in Advance,
Adrian
AFAIK there is a firm order for 112 of them with an option for another 100. Now, if somebody could only give me a hint as to what their unit numbers will be.... do I hear 8100?
Wayne
I believe the 100-1300 series was freed by the renumbering of the R-44/46 for the "new generation" fleet.
Actually, The first hack of the "blue" metro-card involved a guy who used is 8 track player to "record" the info on the magnetic stripe. He than taped the copied stripe to a piece of cardboard, and was arested the first time he used the card.
In the Sunday January 24 Ny Daily News page 34 is an article that the #7 train faces huge financial, engineering and political hurdles, would take years to plan and build, and could amount to nothing more than a political pipe dream. It could return the city to an era of monumental public works projects.
Your thoughts on this after you read the article are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of the Bronx.
Here'a the link to the Daily News article:No. 7 Train Plan Faces Hurdles
There seems to be major concern in extending the #7 west about diverting around the lower level of 42nd and 8th Av.
Why bother? Why not simply sever D3 track and pull up the rails. Then run the new ROW through the tunnel/station that's been dormant for over 25 years. Shore everything up from below, break through the tunnel on both sides and run the #7 right through.
One thing I don't know is what are the relevant elevations of both the IRT and the IND through there? In other words, are the floors of the IND tunnel at about the same depth as the floor of the IRT? I suspect not, and by a large margin; I'm sure the IRT is significantly deeper than even the lower level of the IND, but I have nothing to back up this supposition.
My books show that the IRT starts a shallow downgrade of 0.5% west of Times Square's platform for exactly 570 feet to the bumper block, and the IND is perfectly level through 42nd St on D3 track.
Cheers,
Peter Dougherty
Publisher
Tracks of the New York City Subway book
I read the Daiily News article which correctly references the need for a #7 westward extension to go under the lower level of the IND 8th Ave. line. It is incorrect to say that this level was "never used" because the Aqueduct specials and E trains used it in the 1960's and 1970's.
More important, the exisiting #7 Times Sq terminal ends close to the east wall of the IND lower level. My guess is that the existing #7 station would have to be lowered in order to fit under the IND. Quite a massive, disruptive engineering job, to say the least. Maybe another possibility is that a new tunnel would have to be dug one block south at 40th St. for a rerouted #7 to go west. I guess that Guiliani's advisers were out to lunch on this one. Looking at a map and drawing a straight line is a lot easier that going down in the tunnels and seeing the reality.
These views are my own only.
If they could destroy the BMT Mytle Ave. station back inthe 1950s to build the flying junction for the DeKalb Ave. renovation, I'm sure they can eliminate the lower level at 8th Ave. if necessary.
As far as the cost goes, let's face it, any new line built is going to cost a bundle. The Second Ave. line probably is more important for the city (provided they do it right), but the cost for it could be three times the 7 extension's price.
As for the disruption, back in the 60s I remember Sixth Ave. between 53rd and 58th streets was all wooden planks while construction of the first leg of the 63rd St extension was being built. Even 30 years ago, I'll bet that five block stretch handled more traffic than 41st between Seventh and 10th Ave. does, even with the Port Authority bus ramp.
Unless you built a deep tunnel line, any new subway is going to create the same problems a 7 extension would. It's just up to the public, the city and the MTA to decide where their priorities lie and if they have the ability to ever get a new line in Manhattan built.
If the "suits" in the MTA & TA are finally serious about the 2nd Ave project then they should lock arms with Rudy & go for both projects. The Statium plan will make money for the city ... Rudys just wants a mass transit way to get there (LIRR, Metro-North, TA) so we don't need a big parking garage ... good for him. The TA should use this opportunity to get the 2nd going that is sorely needed.
Mr t__:^)
The Flushing Line tracks extend west from the Times Square station for about a block and end at the east wall of the lower level of the 42 St-8 Av Station. In order to extend the #7 it would be necessary to destroy the lower level station and underpin the 8 Avenue Line while working under traffic, this would be a major project. Several years ago there was a proposal to extend the #7 to New Jersey and this would seem to have more merit. The construction would still be daunting and might require the #7 to terminate at 5 Av for a few years. A new tunnel to Jersey would provide much needed relief for the Penn Station Tunnels.Also isn't it planned to extend the 42 St Light Rail Line down to the Javitt's Center or did this go the way of the 2 Avenue Subway?
Redbird
The #7 would not connect to the Amtrack tracks as posted in the
New York Times article. If this would be done, the Flushing Redbirds
would have to be modified to meet FRA regulations.
The #7 line is also connected to the N line. The N line is connected to other line. Will the whole system be affected?
By the time they finish dithering and start digging, the R36s will have rusted away. As for FRA I'm not sure - the #7/N connection is not used for revenue service. Someone more familiar with the regs will have to answer that.
Here's a suggestion. To avoid severing the lower level of the 8th Avenue/42nd Street station, why not start the descent IN the Times Square station itself, at the west end, where the IND-type tile is.
Make it a 10-to-15-degree grade. You'd have to dig up the TS station trackbeds one at a time, and close that end of the station platform.
Perhaps you'd be able to clear the 8th Avenue line this way.
NB: How far is the west end of the TS station platform from the east wall of the 8th Avenue line?
Wayne
We have so tied ourselves in nots with procedures, so much of our money is diverted to those elsewhere, and the construction industry is fat, corrupt, and overpriced, that we can't do anything. That's the essence of the article and the argument. The #7 is not a substitute for the airport link, or the 2nd Avenue subway. If the predators are somehow overthrown, we can do all three. If not, we can't do any.
i think that means sharing the open cut with Amtrak, not connecting the tracks.
That gives me a sudden think! What if they extend the 7 line, and build the extetion of the Astoria line to LGA and somehow manage to build out the existing flushing line to BMT/IND dimensions? Direct service from Javits (and the hotels that would no doubt spring up in the area should the stadium be built) to LGA...
-Hank
The Steinway tunnels are the main stumbling block to that plan, though you could get a Times Sq.-Flushing link via 60th St. A 7 line that ends at Queensboro Plaza seems a little silly, though.
From what I understand, the #7 extension to New Jersey was one of the options considered in the Access to the Region's Core study (a joint NJ Transit-Port Authority-MTA effort). At the moment, they seem to have settled on two additional commuter-Amtrak tracks under the Hudson and then a continuation of them as a Penn Station-Grand Central link. The idea seems to be to give more NJ Transit rail riders a one-seat ride into Manhattan, rather than having them transfer to the #7 in New Jersey.
As for 42nd Street light rail, that seems to be in limbo right now. It is not an MTA project, but rather a joint private-public effort between the 42nd Street Development Corp. and the New York City Dept. of Planning. Mayor Guiliani has not given a high priority to this recently.
It's noteable that Rudys' plan does NOT incl. NJ Transit/PATH. If he evers expects to get Mr. Hess & the Jets he better revise the plan.
Mr t__:^)
The mayor is perhaps overly optimistic (to understate a bit) with his timetable for this. To qualify for even the chance at federal funding, the project would have to come out of an MIS (Major Investment Study), now (under TEA-21) probably to be renamed an Alternatives Analysis, coupled with a DEIS (draft environmental impact statement). Even if no federal funding is desired, an EIS, or at least a NYS equivalent would be required. This process (AA/DEIS) would take several years, and would generally have to look at various other alternatives, such as the 42 st trolley proposal.
As a subway extension without any of the new sports facilities is likely to not be supportable, the two projects then become linked through the process and the EIS needs to evaluate the impacts of the sports stadium. Given that the whole project is controversial, it would be likely to move very slowly.
As for the technical aspects, it is true that the lower level of 42 St is in the way, but that is irrelevant--this track is essentially abandoned anyway. However immediately beyond this is a portion of the bus terminal that was constructed in the 1980's under 41 st and could presumably not be abandoned. It is feasible to dip under all of this, but that requires starting construction further back towards Times Square (though not in the station itself, as I recall). Still, its not as straightforward as it might seem on a map.
I've read the posts about the problems going West on 42nd & the idea of going North from the L line. I'll have to say that the L line idea seems to be a better one considering obstacles & capacity.
Politically I think the #7 route has a better chance, & I come back to the variation of turning South onto the 8th Ave lower level then going West at 34th. I am also wondering why no plan seems to exist to add extra tracks to the #7 from Queensplaza so it wouldn't have to go from 3 to 2 tracks ??? Why not add a pair ... maybe the answer is that the Lex & 7th & 8th on 42nd couldn't handle the additional traffic ???
We've also talked about extending the Shuttle East ... I won't even entain the idea of extending it West (knowing the track layout there)
Mr t__:^)
I have personal doubts in the plan put forth by the mayor for two reasons. First, the technical aspects of such a project, as stated in other posts in this thread, are quite overwhelming. Second, the #7 line is already overutilized and additional capacity is not a viable option.
I think that the mayor & the MTA should possibly lower their sights, geographically, that is. My proposal would be to extend the 14th St. 'L' line west and then north. The reasons are simple:
I. Construction would be easier since there are fewer man-made obstacles in the way.
II. The extended route would provide the Soho/Tribecca Communities the Subway service needed for continued growth.
III. With the new CBTC signal system and R-143s, the L line will have the additional capacity to serve the Javits Center/MSG complex.
IV. Construction costs and time can be minimized through the utilization of the old NY Central viaduct for the north-south portion of the project. This line already runs down, under the proposed MSG site and adjacent ot the javits Center.
Since the L line and the #7 line intersect virtually all major N-S subway routes in Manhattan, the accessibility would be roughly the same.
Steve, your proposal (quote:
I think that the mayor & the MTA should possibly lower their sights, geographically, that is. My proposal would be to extend
the 14th St. 'L' line west and then north. unquote)
It's a good idea, but (and I *know* I'm going to get in hot water over this one but I gotta say it anyway) by extending the 7 you get a one-seat (stand ) ride for those more likely to use a massive sports complex (for those $60-a-seat Rangers Games) than you will from a line that serves Bed-Stuy and Bushwick. I'm sure that will weigh in on the politicos' minds (and I use the term loosely).
Besides, let's say the Yankees are part of this proposal. Extend the 7 and you could truly get a one-seat subway series !
Cheers,
Peter Dougherty
Publisher
Tracks of the New York City Subway book
A midtown link to the west side - including a connection to Grand Central and all the Metro North and New Haven riders - would be almost a manditory demand for Leon Hess, or whoever the Jets owner would be when the stadium was built.
Also, the problem with using the NY Central tracks for the L is the same one I mentioned last week when I suggested extending the 7 down the west side from 33rd street to WTC -- the people in Chelsea would go nuclear over having a 24/7 elevated line running through their neighborhood. (If they ran the 7 south, combining it with the West Side Highway/Hudson River Park rebuild by putting it elevated above the center median down to WTC would be the best way to avoid the NIMBYs)
The fact that Manhattan starts slanting in at about 30th St also hurts the ability to extend the L line uptown -- 11th Ave. doesn't begin until 22nd Street and 10th Ave. starts just a few blocks below 14th, so an underground L would probably have to turn north at 9th Ave. and then west at 30th St.
As to the routing Steve is technically on better ground, but PJD probably has the sounder current political calculus. IMHO, IT(they , many should get built post haste, and I sympathize with Larry;s frustration over the cumbersome decision and funding processes. I would howeever underline that using the L is ultimately better on two counts. 1. by definition the BMT/IND row can throughput more warm bodies per hour at marginal cost increase, and 2. Adding useful destinations to a less sardine packed line is a better use of money. All that said build 2nd ave first.
Hi Folks,
Just a quick note to say that the Second Edition of my Trackbook is now in the printer's capable hands. many of you have already ordered the new edition from me, and I'm sure you will be pleased to hear that it will be shipped from Niagara Falls, NY next Friday. Most of you should have it by Tuesday the second at the latest.
If you haven't already ordered it, I can ship you a book if I get your order by next Friday. I'm having 50 printed and about 22 are pre-sold. If I ship from Canada, add about 10 days extra for shipping (and storage; thanks Canada Post!). If you are ordering directly from me, I'll be glad to sign your copy on request.
For those of you who aren't familiar with the book, please visit my site (below) or e-mail me directly (pjd@ilap.com). It's 120 pages in total this time around, with 24 pages alone dedicated to every yard in the system, chaining codes, the new alignent at Atlantic Ave. on the "L" and oodles more.
To all who have ordered and enjoyed previous versions, all I can say is a warm and grateful Thank You.
Cheers,
Peter Dougherty
Publisher
Tracks of the New York City Subway book
I just wanted to let you know that I don't give out my e-mail address because of various reasons but if you haapen to have future express bus readings for Brooklyn & Staten Island with future new routes or future extension of a express route, please post it on the subtalk. If you can't post the future express bus readings, please drop me a line.
I appreciate it.
Sincerely,
John
No such listing exists,,for now,,only present signs
To the general posting public:
Does anyone know if Historical Landmark status could be given to a short railroad line such as the SBK? If such a thing is possible, certainly South Brooklyn is a line worthy of such a designation.
Any ideas???
Doug
South Brooklyn is a histerical railroad. Costco should build a bigger parking lot over the track inside the former Davidson Pipe Factory (Only after the second generation SMEE equipment departs the system). I would also send SBK 1 & 2 to Naporano Iron & Metals with some redbirds and R-40s too. What junk! This way SBK has a historical value as they would be the engines that would get rid of railfan windows.
Damage: You are a talented comedian, but don't give up your day job. :)
Doug: It's too bad that when you ask an interesting question you get an inmature response from someone.
The SBK had many interesting features not the least of which is the 38 Street tunnel and 9 Avenue Lower Level. Where else do you have a common carrier railroad with trackage rights over a rapid transit system. Also when the Willie B is closed the SBK becomes very important for connecting the Eastern Section Lines to the Southern Section Lines.
Regards,Redbird
Oh bother! If you want to pick on a fleet of cars pick on the R44s!
They rattle and clatter and sound like they are falling apart and IMHO aren't worth another GOH. I was on one where a door panel popped open on the wall side while it was stopped at 175th Street (THAT's scary! - they took it straight out of service) And the one (#5210) where the light panel fell on some poor guy's head. Did you see how #5282 fell apart like a cheap sweater? That wouldn't have happened to an R38! Now, the R32s, R38s AND the R40s - THOSE are worth every ounce of the stainless steel that Naporano &co won't get anytime soon! Long may they rule!
Wayne
Don't forget the R-42s, too. Now that they're all on the Eastern Division, I never see them anymore because I haven't been on any of those routes in a long time. If the R-143s do wind up on the L, as has been suggested, maybe we'll see some R-42s elsewhere. Or is the L served exclusively by slant R-40s these days?
I agree with Wayne: the slant R-40s are excellent cars. So are the R-32s (they're tops!). So are the R-38s. And the Redbirds.
No, Steve -there are but 48 Slants on the "L" - those numbered 4398 through 4449 (minus, of course, 4420-4421 and 4427-4428 with 4426-4429 being the Odd Couple). That is six full consists. (Eastern div. running 8-cars) The others are spread out among the "Q"s and "N"s, with one train still plying the "B" as of 12-19-98.
Some of the R42s may indeed wind up serving elsewhere once the R143s arrive. I have heard through reliable sources that the slants on the "L" are ticketed for the Southern division ("N","Q" etc.)
Naporano won't be seeing these cars anytime soon! :o)
Wayne /mrSlantR40\
I'LL WANT TO KNOW IF M1 BUS IS GOING TO HARLEM AND SOUTH FERRY? CAN I GO TO HARLEM, WITHOUT GET ON THE BUS AND THEN FOLLOWING TO SOUTH FERRY?
THE SERVICE ON SUNDAY: IS GOOD? FREQUENCY OF BUSES? IS FASTER?
I'LL STAYED AT BROADWAY, BETWEEN 74 AND 75 TH. STREET, WHERE CAN I TAKE THE BUS? THE BUS STOP EACH THREE BLOCKS?
I MUST TRAVEL WITH TOKEN, OR METROCARD?
HOW MANY MINUTES FROM 59 AND FIFTH AVENUE TO SOUTH FERRY?
THANKS YOU VERY MUCH!
First: The M1 operates between 147th Street 7th Ave-Harlem and 8th Street-4 Ave on weekends and nights. During weekdays it is extended to South Ferry. Sunday there are fewer buses, but it will amke the trip faster since it's less traffic. From 75th and Broadway you would need to take another bus or subway to get to the M1. by bus you can take the M104 along Broadway toward 42nd St/1 Ave UN to 5th ave and 42 street and catch the M1 on 5 th Ave between 41st and 42nd streets. You can use token, Metrocard or $1.50 (coins only). If you use cash - you must get a transfer.
One small point ... the Transfer you can ask for by paying cash on a bus is only good to another bus, i.e. NG to subways.
Mr t__:^)
I would appreciate hearing from anyone regarding the use of OPTO on London Transport. This is a major system with long platforms and curves and many station peculiarities like the New York System.
Thanks in advance,Redbird
I believe all the lines but the Northern are OPTO as of now. The Northern line is awaiting new rolling stock. Cameras along the platforms and video monitors outside the driver's position allows the driver to view the entire length of the platform. Also during rush hours many of the stations have what we might call platform conductors to ensure everyone's safely loaded.
As David has said, all London Uunderground lines are operated by train operators only, with exception of the NORTHERN LINE which is awaiting new stock being delivered currently.
Trains on the CENTRAL line and JUBILEE line have facility for platform camera images to be displayed in cab, although this is not fully in use on those lines.
Cameras are the norm on all other lines with up to 8 images being displayed at the car stop mark at the "head end" of the platforms.
In addition the station supervisor and his station assistants are posted at various points on the platform (especially during rush hours) to assist with crowd control ensuring passengers are allowed to allight before those on the platform join.
The quality of the camera pictures is very good and shows the length of the train displayed on average of about 4 or 5 screens.
Many "BIG" passenger trains on suburban mainline routes are also operated under the DOO (P) Driver Only Operation (passenger) system.
1999 will go down in History as the grade of Guard disappears from London Underground passenger operations.
regards
Rob :^)
A changing of the guard, so to speak.
The major problem with OPTO is one of safety. As Rob says the Central and Jubilee have in cab displays. But when this is not available and the driver leaves the platform and enters a tunnel views of the platfrom as the train is leaving are impossible. A few years ago a boy was killed by being dragged into the tunnel after being caught on the doors. I can't remember the details but perhaps someone can enlighten me it may even have been the Central line and perhaps Holborn. Staff on platforms seem few and far between except at major stations. For some poeple as in NY to travel with a guard is very reassuring.
Just a comment on OPTO. The basic "problem" concerning OPTO is that if your system started from Day 1 with it, then no problem. See WMATA, MARTA, MTA (Baltimore), Miami. If the system started with conductors (or Guards), then OPTO is bad.
WMATA and MARTA are excellent examples of OPTO in large systems. The biggest problem in implementing OPTO in "old" systems is habit: The trains have run with two people since before I was born, so that must be the best (only) way.
IMHO
Can't speak for other places, but the transition seems to be going smoothly on the Market-Frankford line here in Philly. The old Budd M-3 cars, now being phased out, had standard two-person operation. The new AdTranz M-4 cars are strictly OPTO, using a system like London's Central and Jubilee lines, with a monitor in the cab and cameras along the platform.
You are probably right. Londoners got used to OPTO when the Victoria Line was built with the intention of running automatic trains from day one (no curved platforms etc.). This taught passengers that there was nothing routinely dangerous about having the driver open and close doors and decide when to start.
From the point of view of passenger safety, I don't think that the guard was ever seen as a safe area from attacks. In London, the guard has traditionally ridden in the rear carriage-inconvenient to walk to in many stations-and on some lines (Piccadilly 1973 stock, others too) rode in the rear driver's cab: no use to keep an eye on passengers at all.
However, the Northern Line is traditionally seen as a dangerous line south of the river, and so we may well see these issues becoming of more importance.
The last carriage with the guard has always been a refuge for late night travellers who wish to keep themselves to themselves, and ladies at all times. Somehow security cameras, perceived to be unstaffed stations,emergency station call points, and faceless train operaters dont give the same degree of comfort. A comparison of crime statistics both before and after the introduction of OPTO would be interesting.
In addition to many platform and other safety alterations, many London Underground lines are now fitted with C.S.D.E equipment which is C orrect S ide D oor E nable
which only allows the Train Operator to release the passenger doors on the correct (platform) side, and will not release the doors on the non platform (wrong) side if they are released in error.
Passenger safety is also being "improved" by more British Ttransport Police and London Underground Revenue Iinspectors patrolling trains.
Rob :^)
When I lived in London, being South of the River, and not having any intention of going near Brixton after dark, it was always either a bus or a Southern Region train home. Southern Region trains always had a separate compartment for the guard, and so again there was no passenger reassurance. One the other hand, the late trains home were always very quiet (this was the Orpington line from Victoria). Busy, but generally filled with sensible people. Perhaps living off the Underground was a good thing after all.
I totally agree that "if your system started from Day 1 with [OPTO], then no problem. See WMATA, MARTA, MTA (Baltimore), Miami." But I disagree that "the biggest problem in implementing OPTO in "old" systems is habit," although it IS a problem.
The new systems were designed for OPTO, with straight stations and train cars with full-width operator's cabs. The older systems have cars without full-width cabs, stations on curves or other "blind spots," and other such physical obstacles to implementation of OPTO.
For example, Chicago has only a relatively small portion of its car fleet that was built for OPTO (the 3200 series cars), and these are placed on lines that have been OPTO for some time (Yellow Line and Brown Line since the mid-1990s, and the Orange Line since it opened, also in the mid-90s). The other cars use a jury-rigged system of propping the motorman's door open and using a plastic tape to rope off the front of the first car. And only the relatively-new Orange Line was built with OPTO in mind, while the other lines have a significant number of stations on curves or with otherwise-obstructed views of the whole platform. Several million dollars were spent on a closed-circuit television system in these stations.
If you exit the Hoyt/Schermerhorn station (A/C/G in Brooklyn) to the right of the token booth, (towards Bond street) you'll see a series of huge stylized letter L's on the wall. Anyone know what its all about? The coridor to the left (towards Hoyt) has empty spaces on the wall but no L's.
Just a guess,
but maybe for nearby Livingstone Street?
-Michael
Regarding the "Big L" in Hoyt Shermerhorn station, is it possible it was an entrance into Loesser's Department Store? (I may have the name spelled wrong; it rimes with 'foreclosure,' though.) That was probably the most elegant of the old Fulton Street department stores; it merged with Namm's sometime in the late 1940s, I think, and even the merged store disappeared after that.
Does anyone know if the Brooklyn Eagle is archived anywhere on a web site? That would be an excellent source of such information. It's possible that the paper had a reference to the 'L' or even ads from the department store that mentioned a subway entrance.
Also, I remember that Abraham and Strauss had an entrance into the IRT which came in very handy when one had to lug something heavy like a set of dishes; you could slide them onto the train.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
> Also, I remember that Abraham and Strauss had an entrance into the
> IRT which came in very handy when one had to lug something heavy
> like a set of dishes; you could slide them onto the train.
I remember that, too. From the basement level, you could enter the IRT platform without traversing stairs. Wasn't this at Hoyt St, too? (2/3 lines)
--Mark
The store entrance was below the basement. They had a "subway floor" under the basement. There was also a crossunder. It is now closed. The L on the IND is Loesser's.
We took a photograph of one of the "L"s Thursday and we plan to include this in the Hoyt_Schermerhorn street station description for "Line-by-Line" Fulton Street Line.
Also coming soon - Children's Cathedral - all ten views, plus the rest of the Utica rehab project.
Wayne
[Also coming soon - Children's Cathedral - all ten views, plus the rest of the Utica rehab project.]
Children's Cathedral?
Oh, I am sorry! I named it and didn't describe it. At Utica Avenue, in the ramps leading to the exits are mosaics based on childrens' drawings entitled "Children's Cathedral 1996". It is really quite lovely.
Wayne
[Oh, I am sorry! I named it and didn't describe it. At Utica Avenue, in the ramps leading to the exits are mosaics based on childrens' drawings entitled "Children's Cathedral 1996". It is really quite lovely]
Thanx for the info. I'll have to check that out sometime.
NOW THAT THE METROCARD VENDING MACHINES ARE OPERATIONAL, WE LEARN THAT THE SINGLE-RIDE TICKETS, @1.50, are indeed valid for a bus ride(with transfer, if requested), and are also valid at any station, (not only where purchased),why is there a time limit (of two hours)to use the darn thing?The token does not have such a restriction.Why did the TA decide to time code this green card at all?
Green Car incl. Transfer ? I was told that wasn't so ... could you expand on your knowledge. I think you can use it once on a subway or a bus. The bus farebox should keep it, but someone will have to try this.
[Why the time limit] ... well, it's for those folks that either only have enough for one token or are buying their last token ever ... some folks buy them one at a time for some reason. So, if you are going to take a couple of rides or more they want you to buy the One day Ulim card.
Guess how One day/24 hour Unlim Local cards we get on our lines ..... would you believe 300 to 400 a day (divide by two and subtract some qty and you have the number of cards) ... no wonder folks are still having trouble finding a vendor who has some left to sell.
I just don't understand folks ... if you make a round trip to work why would you want to pay $4.00 for $3.00 worth of service ???? I would use the value card (incl. some free rides) and have a couple of 24 hour unlim cards in my wallet to use if I was going to make multiple trips that day.
Mr t__:^)
Did anyone see the Sunday Review section of the Inky yesterday?
In it three area residents vented about the inefectualness of SEPTA's operations, how customer service is deplorable and one person even compared Chicago's Metra to our RR system(guess who came out looking better?)
Any comments on this, if you've read the section?
Yes. I can speak to two of the letters fairly (I'll reserve comment on the third, for the sake of fairness - but it was right on the mark, wasn't it!).
The King of Prussia letter was somewhat on the mark, but I don't agree with the concept of no fare discounts. Frequent riders should be encouraged and rewarded. But, more info is needed for the infrequent user, if for no other reason than to turn him/her into a regular customer.
I'm not sure about the Chicago letter. Is Metra really all that much cheaper than SEPTA? I don't know much about Chi-town but I do know that none of the "downtown" rail stations is all that close to where commuters must go, and there is a hefty add-on to Metra passes for those who want to have CTA priviledges. SEPTA's Trailpass offers unlimited use of City Transit and Suburban Transit (within the proper zone) in addition to rail access. I think we need more info on this since it appears to me to be comparing apples and oranges.
The Phila letter, well, what an author! No doubt about it, that guy knows what he's talking about!
"I'm not sure about the Chicago letter. Is Metra really all that much cheaper than SEPTA? I don't know much about Chi-town but I do know that none of the "downtown" rail stations is all that close to where commuters must go, and there is a hefty add-on to Metra passes for those who want to have CTA priviledges. SEPTA's Trailpass offers unlimited use of City Transit and Suburban Transit (within the proper zone) in addition to rail access. I think we need more info on this
since it appears to me to be comparing apples and oranges."
I read the letter, and I agree that it is very hard to compare Metra and SEPTA fares without knowing how big a SEPTA zone is versus a Metra zone (which happens to be five miles). The letter seemed to equate SEPTA Zone 5 with G zone (30-35 miles from downtown) on the Metra. However, comparing the fares to Central Philadelphia with a Metra commute to downtown Zone A, one has to go as far out as J Zone (45-50 miles outside the city) to exceed the fares being charged in Zones 5 and 6.
On the other hand, it's true that one has to shell out $36 on top of a monthly pass to have unlimited use of CTA (city buses and L/subway) and Pace (suburban buses) during weekday rush hours (6:00-9:30AM and 3:30-7:00PM). And Chicago does not have a weekly pass or an off-peak discount on the one-way fare, though it would seem at first glance that Metra one-way fares are cheaper than SEPTA off-peak one-way fares.
As to the downtown terminals, it is not fair to say that "none of the 'downtown' rail stations is all that close to where commuters must go." The downtown stations of the busy Metra Electric line are right on Michigan Avenue and one short block from the Loop L. The LaSalle Street Station is in the financial district (in the same building as the Stock Exchange and across the street from the Board of Trade) and next to stations on both the Blue Line subway and the Loop L. It is true that the two busiest terminals are west of the river from the Loop and are about two blocks from the nearest L or subway stop, but there are considerable office buildings west of the river as well as in the Loop proper, and there is good bus service from the terminals to all parts of downtown. On the other hand, we don't have the advantage of SEPTA's common terminals for all suburban lines, nor do any suburban lines pass through downtown (all Metra lines terminate downtown).
If you could let me know how large a SEPTA zone is, we would have a logical basis for comparing fares.
A SEPTA fare zone changes every 5-7miles. We have 7 zones,The Central Philadelphia zone, which is from Center City to around Temple and a circle around that, and then go from 1 to 6, with only 1 station, Trenton on the R7 in Zone 6, yet West Trenton, which is farther away is a Zone 5 station.
If you can get your hands on an R1 schedule, they have a fare zone map.
Septa Fare Zones are approximately set at 5 mile distances from City Hall. There are a few exceptions, you will quickly notice, where some heavily used stations get knocked up a little early to the next zone (such as Bryn Mawr and Jenkintown). Wilmington and Claymont, on the other hand, should be Zone 5 but are actually Zone 4.
Metra compares much more favorably with customer service, which SEPTA seems almost congenitally unable to give. However, SEPTA has by far the best overall schedules in terms of frequency of any agency in the country. SEPTA also has the best service pattern and station location for its downtown, with all major areas of employment served directly by the system; i.e. 30th St./University City for the Penn/Drexel area, Suburban Station for west and middle Center City, Market East for east Center City, and Temple University for the Temple area. Further, there is not a system in the country with better access to the Airport, and better overall interconnectivity by use of through passes than SEPTA.
SEPTA is an undiscovered and underutilized gem. A few extensions to places like King of Prussia/Valley Forge, along the Turnpike and the 422 corridor, along with better customer service and higher speeds would turn the system into the best on the continent. I have commented on these needed improvements elsewhere. Even Toronto's much vaunted system is split into seperate transit and commuter rail services. Whether this will be accomplished remains to be seen.
Andy
Agreed!
The reason SEPTA irks me so much is because they have so much potential but seem to have no problem keeping their butts on it instead of pumping a few dollars into it and making something special.
When Jack Leary took over I was hoping he'd pick the system up, as I heard he'd done in St.Louis before he came here around 3 or 4 years ago(?).
How many times have we heard a "SEPTA's really gonna change this time" campaign?
If they're "serious about change", mean it and do it!
There are small changes going on around the system, such as the move to the smaller buses on some lines and increased service on others, but I agree that more is needed. Unfortunately, Leary seems to have fallen into the "status quo" mode and many of the best folks at the Authority are jumping ship.
"Further, there is not a system in the country with better access to the Airport [than SEPTA]."
It's true that the R1 is a fairly direct route to downtown Philadelphia. However, other U.S. cities also have rail connections between the airport and downtown. And while these cities operate rapid transit (Chicago, Cleveland, Washington) or light rail (St. Louis, Baltimore) to the airport, SEPTA operates the link as commuter rail, with a 30 minute headway, weekdays and weekends alike. 30 minutes is a good headway for commuter rail, but rather poor compared to other U.S. cities with airport rail (with the exception that I think Baltimore's system also serves the airport on 30-minute headways). I know that the one time I traveled to Philly with a group, the rest of the group rejected my suggestion to ride the train into town when they found out how long it would be to the next train.
As for Baltimore, the Penn Stn. -BWI line now runs on a 17 minute headway. We finally have all 18 of the Adtranz cars accepted, bugs fixed (mostly by the MTA Light Rail shop) and all available for service. The 17 minute headways on both lines are staggered so that the headway on the shared section (Mt. Royal to Linthicum) is 8 minutes. 2-car trains are usual on weekdays on both lines.
The Airport Line is a perfect example of a line that could and should be light rail in all ways. Headways could be 10 min or better most of the day. Stops could be added at 61st, 70th and the ramshackle pile of lumber at 84th (Eastwick) could be improved, and the line could be raking in the revenue. Instead, SEPTA insists on 30 min headways, a $5 fare one way, and cars with two single doors at the extreme ends (if the crew decides to open them) which take forever to board and unload, and then calls this "Airport service". It has to be better!
about the defective/malfuntioning M-4's, an R-62 on an uptown #2's lights were half lit, although ALL doors opened and closed. When the train left the station and accelerated, all lights turned on and stayed on for the rest of my ride. Does anyone know why this happened/happens on both the M-4's and R-62's
My point was not to praise the frequency but the location. The frequency ought to be every 10 minutes. The location between the baggage claim and ticket counters at all terminals is great. I cannot think of another system with such good access (although BART's extension, which I am designing the track and contact rail for right now will come close with direct access to a couple of terminals). All the other's that I've visited, such as Chicago (both airports), Washington, Boston, Baltimore, etc. all required rather lengthy walks to the trains (I am not familiar with the exact locations of the Cleveland and St. Louis stations). The only airport I've ever been in with as convenient a train station location was Frankfurt, Germany, where you get off the plane and go the ticket ocunter area, descend the stairway and are directly on the platform for the trains.
If we ever get someone at Amtrak inkling for some creativity in revenue seeeking, they'll someday figure out how to make money by running airplane "flights" between places like Washington, BWI, Philly, Harrisburg, Newark, and New York using the train, just like the Lufthansa "flights" run by the German Federal Railways between Frankfurt and Cologne and the Ruhr and Stuttgart.
Andy Byler
Washington National (DCA) has excellent rail access. The old Metro station at DCA was in the middle of the parking lot, but they just added a new terminal, with a Metro station virtually built-in.
SEPTA has an advantage over Washington because the trains stop at every terminal, but Washington has an advantage because the rail service is subway, not commuter rail. Imagine the Broad St Line running to the airport...
BWI also has a rail station built-in - in fact, you don't even have to cross a road - it's part of the terminal, although it is commuter rail.
"BWI also has a rail station built-in - in fact, you don't even have to cross a road - it's part of the terminal, although it is commuter rail."
You are confusing the MARC commuter rail with the new light rail extension. The light rail station is, as you describe, connected directly to the terminal. The commuter rail station is about five minutes by shuttle bus from the airport terminals. The main difference is that the light rail runs more frequently than the commuter rail, but the light rail goes only to Baltimore, while you can catch commuter trains to Baltimore or to Washington DC.
Ooops. Thanks for clarifying. You are quite right.
Many thanks for the OPTO responses.
A number of years ago when I was in London I rode the Holborn-Aldwych Shuttle of the Piccadilly Line.It was I understand a single track line that only ran during peak hours. I wonder what the purpose of this construction was? Was it originally planned to extend the Piccadilly Line south to the Thames and if so why was it only single track? Thanks again in advance.
Redbird
I believe I read (maybe in "Rails thru the Clay" - a 25 pound history of London's tube lines -- both in price and weight!) that it was mostly for extra service for evening theater crowds from the Holborn-Strand-Covent Garden area. This line is closed now, by the way.
This short Branch closed after the last train on 1ST October 1994 and is now used as a location to shoot movies,pop videos and TV adverts.
It is also rumoured although not confirmed that a 1972 Mark 1 tube stock set (3229-4229-4329-3329) has been moved into the platform and is stabled in the tunnels to allow a complete film set of station and train!!
The line is still connected to the PICCADILLY "main" line at Holborn
and is still in an operational state.
Regards
Rob :^)
(p.s. missed travelling on the last train (Boo-hoo!) as i had to work, but a friend of mine "did" the last train which was standing room only!!
Rob: I was fortunate to ride another single track line when I was in London, the Epping-Ongar Shuttle which I believed used a former railroad right-of-way. We have had some single track operations here but usually as a downgrading of a two or three track line. The Culver Shuttle,155 St-167 St Shuttle in it's last days, and the Bowling Green Shuttle among others. Thanks for the info.
Redbird
London also has the single track Chesham-Chalfont&Latimer branch of the Metropolitan line. A nice ride-- 4 or 5 miles or so. View from the cab:
I think that the Mill Hill East branch of the Northern Line is also single track. There is definitely only one platform face at the station. It runs over quite a spectacular viaduct at one point, and was part of the London and North Eastern Railway. Many many years ago, there used to be a single track branch to South Acton
I am pretty sure that there is only single track running on the New Cross branch of the East London Line, although I think that the New Cross Gate branch is double track. The Kensington Olympia branch may be another likely candidate, other possibility is the shoreditch section of the East London Line.
Anyone want to correct my guesses? How about other major metro systems?
Redbird,
Epping to Ongar is now closed, although are rumours that it will reopen as a preserved line, but not with preserved Underground trains. The line has quite an interesting history but was always doomed to fail. It ran outside the London area, and the county councils outside London have a long history of being reluctant to subsidies the Underground. As a result, the fares charged along the line were quite spectacular.
Two recent closures on the Underground were quite sad, but worse was the length of time it took London Transport to remove their presence from their publicity. For at least a couple of years after the closures, tube maps were being given out with the lines still on. Not many tourists want to travel to Ongar or Aldwych, but this is still the sort of sloppiness that I am sure would not have been tolerated when London Transport was first formed.
The Piccadilly Line was originally intended to be two lines. One from Finsbury park to Strand (the street that Aldwych Station is on) and one from West London to Piccadilly. When American financier Charles Tyson Yerkes was buying up tube construction projects in London, these two schemes were merged to give one single tube line from Hammersmith to Finsbury Park. However, the section from Holborn to Strand was still built, and in fact has twin tunnels and station platforms at Aldwych.
Aldwych is in an awkward part of London. Not quite the shopping area (further west) and not quite the working area (further east), it never really served any purpose, and the late night theater specials soon faded away.
There was a suggestion to extend the line to Waterloo, which would have made it somewhat more useful, and for conspiracy theorists I have read claims that one tunnel was actually constructed in secret for the wartime government. I have suggested elsewhere that extending both ways, giving a new cross-London tube from Waterloo to Euston would be a valuable and cheap addition to the Underground system.
Alternatively, Aldwych station is withing easy walking distance of the London Transport museum, which has belatedly realised that preserving old Underground trains in working order for railtours might be a good idea. Having a couple of preserved trains on the line would be a good use for all, although I suspect that the necessary work would cost far too much money.
Max: Thank you for the info, I didn't know the line had been constructed with a two track capacity.
Regards,Redbird
Is the A line faster than taking a taxicab? How much does the one-way fare cost on the A line from Howard Beach to Manhattan?
All depends on (1) the time of day or night you are travelling; (2) your ultimate destination in Manhattan. Cost is vastly different - $1.50 for A train (or can use $4 FunPass for the trip) versus maybe $30/$35 for a taxi to Mid-Manhattan, not including tip and bridge/tunnel tolls.
Mention your specific destination in Manhattan and I or some other subtalker can give you detailed travel directions.
If you can catch the shtttle bus quickly and the A is express in
Brooklyn, it is always faster. Sometimes it can take longer to get
to Howard Beach, than it takes to ride the train to lower Manhattan.
From personal experience I'd have to disagree.
As Andy said, it all depends on the time of day. Taking the A from West 4th to Howard Beach took me about 50 minutes from the time of departure. But A trains that actually go to Howard Beach only run about every 20 - 30 minutes depending on the time of day. (Call MTA for the exact schedule (718) 330-1234) Once you're at Howard Beach you have to wait for the appropriate shuttle for the terminal you want. I think there are two - A and B.
I had to wait about 10-15 minutes for the correct shuttle. That trip then took about 20 minutes to get me to the right terminal. All together it took me about an hour and a half for the trip - not including time spent waiting for the A. It's a pretty dull, miserable trip. I wouldn't do it again unless I was travelling alone, at rush hour, and really tight for money. And I'm only a 5 minute walk from West 4th Street.
Unless it's rush hour, a taxi will usually be faster - at a steep premium. $30+ tip to Manhattan vs. $1.50.
I guess that is why they terminated the JFK Express train a few years back.
Ilove the mci bus because it looks good.
They're comfortable, durable and very fast too.
the governor stops them at 60 but the mayor will issue a ticket beyond 50 as that is the speed limit on gowanus and si xpwy and he is a strict law enforcer.
Well, I can't say that I'm suprised that they're governed. I guess when they go to the NJ Turnpike everything must run right past them because I really don't think NJ Transit buses are governed and I've paced Greyhound MC-12's and 102D3's at over 70 MPH. Well the NYCT MCI's will probably never come close to the speeds they're capable of reaching. I didn't know that the Honorable Ego was cracking down on buses.
i believe the speed limit on nj turnpike is 65 mph so nyct buses are not even up to that. he is cracking down on buses especially since he doesnt care fot nyct and his inability to control them.
Yep! That's his way. So now NYCT bus operators have to amke sure they're not over 50 MPH and then on the NJ Turnpike they have to stay out of everyones' way. In addition to that - try to stay on schedule. It certainly could get frustrating
If people who drive cars have to do the speed limit then buses and trucks should do the speedlimit also. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.
Just because a person drives a bigger vehicle (Buses and trucks) it does not give them special rights to go over the speed limit.
Not to toot my own horn but i been driving for 23 years and never had an accident or got a ticket for going over the speed limit.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
I see your point. Now I will say (and I not at all ashamed) - In my 15 years of driving - I've never had an accident, but yes, I have gotten 2 speeding tickets. I freely admin that I was speeding and I deserved them - now I'm just more careful and I along with many drivers will always speed, but I'm not reckless. There is a difference. My opinion is that the best practices for driving is to keep up with the flow of traffic (including buses and trucks). I drive the Capitol Beltway and I-95 between Wash DC - NYC often and the flow of traffic is usually 5-10 MPH over the posted limit. I pass many state troopers and they simply do not bother with the vehicles that's keeping pace with the flow of traffic. Now of course you'll have the some crazies out there who are clearly speeding past traffic that's already cruising along at 70 MPH and those are usually the one's who get pulled over. I say this to say that (in my opinion) for - Mr. Giuliani or anyone to chase after buses doing 55 MPH in a 50 MPH zone is quite petty. Even NJ with it zero tolerance let drivers have a small margin. Also, I think those that are going too slow are just as dangerous as speeders.
theres been a cop with a radar gun on the gowanus every day. he is between 65 st and the vz bridge so we regulars know to maintain limit there. i think maniacs going at high speeds should be stopped but this pettiness of 5-10 mph over is ridivulous.
Guliani must be mad because he has no direct control over the buses. At that speed on the NJ turnpike they must be the slowest on the road. How about other buses(charter buses and NJ transit buses)? The NJ MCI and new Vanhool and Neoplane can go pretty fast.
A charter bus(one of those new European ones) that I was on went up to 85 on the NJ turnpike.
Yes Jack, I agree with you and Trolleybus. It's very petty, but I've come to expect that sort of thing from Giuliani.
I don't know how fast NJ Transit's Flxibles are, but I know their MCI's and Greyhound buses routinely exceed 70 MPH - and with the 65 MPH speed limit on the NJ Turnpike that's quite normal. It's too bad that these buses have to be tied down at such a low speed.
BTW - Do you remember early last year when Giuliani started giving speeding tickets to vehicles exceeding the 30 MPH limit on city streets. Then a Daily News reporter followed Giuliani from Manhattan to Staten Island and Giuliani's car was well over the limit several times. Of course the reporter put this in the paper and a very predictable Giuliani became defensive and attacked the reporters' integrity.
Speed limits are supposed to be for safety but often they are politicaly motivated. Driving too fast for conditions is not good and some of the recent gambling bus accidents going to Atlantic City demonstrate that point. If transit is to be effective bus lanes that take commuters out of standing traffic makes the most sence if the corridor does not support a higher density rail mode.
Mayor Guliani DOES control over 1,000 city buses, while the TA controls about four times that much.
Mr t__:^)
You're right, but I'm sure he'd love to control the TA also. The spot (mentioned by Trolleybus) is at a point where only TA express buses pass.
the mci that nyc transit now leases will only max out at 60mph due to transit governing it at that. i would never drive it on nj turnpike for you must look like a fool.
Why does the C-Train run with only 8 cars (480 foot trains) while the A and most other ex-IND except for the G run with 600-foot trains?
It's not due to an concerns about platform limitations such as on the BMT Eastern Section lines. The C duplicates the A route over it's entire length and there may simply not be the need for the extra capacity.
Redbird
Also the C shares much of its local service with two other lines in Manhattan -- the E from WTC to 50th St. and the B from 59th to 145th. Unless a local passenger wants to go straight up or down 8th Ave. past the 53rd St. cutoff, there's no reason to wait for the C if an E or B arrives first.
When the Williamsburgh shuts down, you may seen 10-car trains on the C to handle the overload out of East New York.
It seems that the IND lines had a tradition of running 10-car express trains and 8-car local trains, or more specifically, 8-car trains which run exclusively as locals. My guess is that even though IND engineers went to great lengths to induce local riders to stay on board their trains to their final destinations, people still prefer taking an express over a local. I know I fall into that category.
[It seems that the IND lines had a tradition of running 10-car express trains and 8-car local trains,]
It does seem that way. During my youngster days I remember when you could not find a 10-car on the BMT with the exception of 8-car train of R-46s on the N. Also I remember the B train maxing out at 8 cars until we had the split B & D services in the late 1980's.
Keep in mind that BMT stations along the Broadway line were lengthened to accomodate 10-car trains of 60-foot R units; most of this was done after the Chrystie St. connection opened. You can plainly see which station ends were lengthened (northern end at Union Square; southern end at 34th St. and Times Square). They didn't have to be lengthened all that much, maybe 60 feet or so; they were built to accommodate 8-car trains of BMT standards, which came to 536 feet.
Speaking of the Broadway line, has anyone ever noticed what they did at 28th St? It seems the platforms were lengthened southward, so much so that the northern ends were walled off maybe a car length from the mouth of the tunnel, and the original tilework is still visible. Was this done intentionally, or was it a case of "Oops! We went too far"?
I don't know - I'd like to get a picture of that at 28th Street.
It looks like they did the same thing down at Rector Street except some slap-happy painter covered up the tablets! BOOOOOOO!!!
We were on some R32 "C" yesterday, all eight-cars. We did not see the R110-B. We visited Hoyt-Schermerhorn, and I took a picture of the "L" on the wall - I promptly called up my Mom in VA and asked her what the department store was - she says "Loesser's", pronounced "Low-zhers".
The store went out of business years ago but the building still stands. You can plainly see where the store awnings once were. It is an office building now, housing city agencies. We also stopped at Utica, where we finished photographing Children's Cathedral, a fine mosaic collection, based on actual childrens' drawings. And we visited Euclid, Grant, Howard Beach, then on the way back, Liberty and Broadway-East NY. We capped it off with a ride at the RF window of #4130, a fine R38, for the express run back to Hoyt-Schermerhorn.
Wayne
Wayne
The "C" train, in Brooklyn, is more crowded than it has ever been. The trains run with only eight cars. Why don't they expand the trains to ten cars apiece (like the "A" train which speeds past the local station customers each rush hour).
I don't think the TA has enough cars to make 10 car C service at this time. Sometimes with the A being 10 cars long, and people transfering into an 8 car C train at an express/local stop, the first and last cars may get a double load. Do you ride in an end car? Do you ever watch your train leave the station to see if each car has similar passenger counts?
For those interested parties,,please read
4 IRT Weekday 10 AM to 2 PM
6PM to 630PM
Provide additional midday and evening service to and
from Manhattan
8 trips added bet 10 AM and 2 PM
1 trip added bet 6 PM and 6 30m PM
5 IRT Weeday
provide additional NORTHBOUND peak period service
1 trip added bet 430 PM and 5 PM
2 trip added bet 6 PM and 630 PM
7 IRT Wekday
provide additional evening service to Queens
13 additional trips provided betweenn 630 PM to 1 AM
1 IRT Saturday
6 Trips added bet 10 00 AM to 2 PM
6 trips added bet 7 PM tp 10 PM
1 IRT Sunday
19 additional trips round trips bet 9 AM and 8 PM
operate a 6 minute headway from 1030 AM to 8 PM
IMPLEMENTATION MAY 1999
----------------------------------------------------
BX 5 MODIFICATION
SOUNDVIEW REROUTING
OLD ROUTE VIA STORY,WHITE PLAINS RD,BRUCKNER EXPWY
NEW ROUTE VIA STORY ,WHITE PLNS RD,LAYFEYETTE
AV,CASTLE HILL AV,,BRUCKNER EXPWY
IMPLEMENTATION EARLY 1999
____________________________________________________
Discusssion of the M100 Northern and Southern
Extensions from 9/7/97
Northbound Routing via Broadway ,to 220 st
Return via 9 Avenue,West 215 St,Broadway
Southbound Routing via East on E125 St,NOrth on 3
Avnue,East on E127 St,Right on 2 Avenue to
stand ,Ret via 2 Av,West on East 125 St
Routing now permanent
____________________________________________________
X11 Proposed Service Revision and Extension
Implementation in March 1999
Extend X11 to Wild Avenue (West of Wild Av)
at the Visey Paper Plant Turnaround,,same turnaround as the s62 s92 off street turnaround
It sounds as if the first batch of R-142s is on the way. One thing, though: if they're adding all those additional trains, which is great, they must be planning on keeping more Redbirds around than was previously thought.
That would be nice (especially for the many Redbird fans here)! The body rot must not be as bad as previously thought, though some of the R26 cars are in a serious state of decay - case in point: 7822-7823;
7768-7769 etc.
I would think a fleet of 6500 units or more would be enough to provide all the additional service needed.
Wayne
Hi am planing to take yards pictures at the Livonia, Lenox, and Pitkin Yards.How can I enter that yard and take pictures. Cause I want to add pictures to the yard.
Chrsitopher Rivera
You can't without trespassing-- and unless you've walked around live third rails before (and don't want a juvie record) I'd recommend not even trying. Don't forget the razor wire and guard dogs (do they have dogs?).
Most of the yard pix on this site (at least those taken more recently) are from open houses or guided tours or fan trip trains that enter the yards.
Be a responsible railfan-- trespassing is a big NO.
All of the previous advice is true. You don't want to get arrested or fined for trying to add some shots to the collection of your (and our) favorite hobby.
However, here's something to consider if you have alittle extra time on your hands and have an approachable, outgoing personality: go to the front gate or the employees entrance to the yard (if there is one) and let them know you're a railfan and would like to know if anyone is interested in taking some shots of the equipment for you. Even offer a cup of coffee, etc. Sometimes a little bit of hospitality can go a long way. If they do agree to this, be sure the camera is one that is "expendable" in case it gets dropped, or (dare I say) gets lost by the employee. You shouldn't hold them responsible since they are doing you a favor, possibly on COMPANY time.
Give it a try. In any case, good luck.
Hmmm, all this got me thinking of a useful addition to Subway Resources. I would imagine that for most yards there are accessible vantage points that allow for decent photo opportunities. For example, you can see the East New York yard pretty well from the Broadway Junction platform on the L. How about a listing of these spots?
I would advise getting a safety Waiver or Permission,,or you could be Arrested for Trespassing
Steve
NYC Fire Dept Opertions
Chris: The 148 St-Lenox Terminal Station is in the Lenox Av Yard.If you have a telephoto lens you might also get some good pictures from a Circle Line boat. As for the other two yards you might be limited to looking in the front gate, Pitkin as I recall is surrounded by a stone wall. I'm not sure about Livonia. I would advise against going into the yards on your own. Railroad yards are dangerous especially if your attention is focused on your camera, also you could be arrestted for trespassing.
Best Wishes,Redbird
I can only re-emphasize everything that has already been said here. A subway yard is an extremely dangerous place. Trains can move on any track, in any direction, at any time. The 3rd rails are protected by circuit breakers set at such a high current that you'd likely not even appear as a blip on the model board. You can trip and fall on the slippery, un-even terrain and may not be seen until a train goes into emergency and a motorman walks around his train and finds you under the first or second car.
Also keep in mind that the NYCT system is on a heightened state of security due to possible terrorist activities. What might have gotten you ejected with a strong warning, just a few years ago, will now certainly get you arrested. My advice to you would be to enjoy the photos already on this site and if there's some specific photo you want, post a request. Someone may already have it in their collection and will likely E-mail it to you for the asking...
If you're willing to settle for the LIRR rather than the subway, there is a legal and safe way you can walk right through the middle of an active yard. Every weekday, one of the new bilevel trains leaves Jamaica for Long Island City from platform one at about 8:15. At LIC, the train has to use a temporary wooden platform located on one of the middle tracks (the bilevels lack low-platform boarding capability). Because the platform is located at the west end of the yard, with the main exit for the Vernon-Jackson 7 train station toward the east, passengers use an asphalt path that runs through the yard. It's pretty impressive, with trains looming on either side. When you get near the exit, there's a yard worker to direct passengers across several active tracks (once again on an asphalt path) to the north side of the yard.
I posted a question on Jan.7 at 8:50 PM regarding the above subject. Illness has kept me off the net ever since -- I can't even find my original question. Does anyone out there know in regards to the old open platform gate cars, why the 1300 series could never be coupled with any of the other series, i.e. 200, 600, 700, 900, 1200, & 1400?
The answer seems to be that, in fact, the 1300s were mixed
with other equipment. There is no technical reason why they
can't be coupled to and run in train with other gate cars
such as the 12/1400s or 600s. I wouldn't call it a smooth ride
because of slight variances in acceleration rates and notching,
but photos and filmstrips do exist of this mixup in passenger
service.
If I come into a windfall of spare time, I'll try to get
Shore Line's 600 series car to run with our 1200 series car,
and maybe one day one of our 1300 series with it. Of course
we don't really have the substation to support all that without
bringing up the rotary converter.
Thanks Jeff, I was beginning to think that the question I asked was just too old for this site. My interest period was limited from 1944 to 1950 when as a kid I considered myself an authority on gate cars. I know for sure that during that time the 1300s were segregated from the rest of the fleet. The 200s being trailers were used with each but that seemed to be the only possible mix. I lost track of all of them after the last Lex on Oct 13, 1950 because they no longer ran by my house (Cresent St on the Jamaica Line). I think all but the 1300s were scrapped after that. It's too bad that one of the 900s wasn't preserved because they were very special to me. I think 902 was my all time favorite. I would wait several trains just to ride a 900. You could do that when you're a kid.
Glad to see someone has and interest in GATE cars. I rode the Mrytle Avenue elevated from Bridge-Jay Street when going to Polytechnic Institute of Brooklyn. Of course I rode the Q's. Never rode a Gate car in service. Karl, did you ever ride past Bridge Street to Sands Street and Park Row? Tell me about your experiences of that and the Lexington Avenue Elevated from Grand Street to the Broadway Brooklyn line? I have many photos of this stuff and I find it cool. Do you remember Adams Street station and if so, do you have photos of same?
Ahh...Someone else remembers the gate cars. Bridge-Jay Street was the last stop during my generation. I did ride the Last Lex on the evening of Oct 13th,1950. The train was made up of six 1300s and ran from Eastern Parkway to Bridge-Jay and return. This ended gate cars running past my house (Crescent St on the Jamaica Line) during rush hours. The old cars were fun, they had a rattle and clatter all their own. The clank of the gates, the bell signals, the motor whine are things I would love to hear again. I wish I had some pictures. The only pictures I have are the ones in several books published. I'd love to find a picture of #902, it was a particular favorite.
Karl: There is a wide range of age groups on this website which helps to make it interesting,of course if somebody tells you he remembers laying track with August Belmont he'll probably try to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge too. I remember as a young lad riding Gate cars on the IRT Dyre Av Line when it was the #9 and a shuttle. We lived in the south Bronx and used to vist a religious shrine called"The Grotto" at St Lucy's Church near Pelham Parkway. This is just a personal observation but it seems that for most of us their favorite car was the one which they first became familiar with in their teenage years when they could first venture out on their own.My favorite is the R-33 Redbird.
Best Wishes,Redbird
RedbirdR33: Thanks for your response. I thought that maybe I was too old when I posted my first inquiry on Jan 7th and didn't get a single response. While not ever visiting your area in person I feel like I know it through the pages of the book "Westchester's Forgotten Railway" I was recovering from a major illness in the mid 1940s and was housebound when my dad gave me a project. I was to look out my bedroom window and write down the numbers of all the Gate cars that went by on the "el" that were painted green. This was the start of my interest. Weeks later on my first day out of the house my parents took me for a Gate car ride to celebrate. We boarded the first car of a three car train at Crescent St. The car was #902! The ride only lasted ten minutes because they took the train out of service at Eastern Parkway and I was already to ride to Bridge-Jay St. I rode many gate cars in the ensuing years and many of them were 900s but I never got to ride on 902 again.
I am relatively new to the site but think that I have explored it fairly well. I haven't noticed any photo credits or reference to Edward B Watson. When I moved from New York forty years ago, he was the man to contact for a picture of a certain car or to answer a tough question about the transit system. Is he still active in transit matters, or did he leave the city too?
Karl: I am sorry to inform you that Edward B.Watson passed away on April 12,1991.There was a short obituary in the May,1991 issue of the ERA New York Division Bulletin. One of Mr Watson last works was to co-author "The Brooklyn Elevated" with James G.Greller.Its a great book made all the better by his photos.
Regards,Redbird
Redbird: I almost missed your response. Thanks for answering. I am sorry to hear about Mr. Watson -- I guess he must have been up in years. I never met the man personally, but I talked to him on the phone several times forty years ago. He was very knowledgeable about transit matters and could always be counted on for correct information. I have the book you mentioned as well as "Brooklyn Trolleys". Is it possible for someone who lives in another state to subscribe to these ERA Publications? I guess it's obvious, since I live several hundred miles away, that I can't be a volunteer!
Thanks again. Karl B.
Karl: The Brooklyn Elevated book was published by NJ International Inc. ,77 West Nicholai St, Hicksville,NY 11801. I don't know about the Brooklyn Trolley book but neither of these were ERA publications.The ERA has a website now so you can contact them direct.http://members.aol.com/rob110178/era.
And they will mail you info.
Best wishes,Redbird
Karl - We have members and subscribers from all over the country. The New York Division ERA Bulletin usually as a good historical article on New York City (written by Bernie Linder, who you probably know) in each monthly issue. Annual membership is $30.00. Write to New York Division ERA, PO Box 3001, New York, NY 10008
Redbird and scedman: I have been off for awhile and just now found both of your messages. I want to thank you both for your information regarding ERA. As soon as I can, I will go to the website to see what I can find out. Several times in recent years, I have been shown copies of a picture publication called "Headlights", which I supect is published by ERA. I've never had the opportunity to actually read an issue, but I did get to scan several issues at train shows. I saw one issue that semed to be devoted entirely to the old gate cars! I am assuming that this is the same ERA that we've been talking about. Thanks again, both of you. Karl B.
Karl: Headlights is published periodically by the (national) Electric Railroaders Association or ERA. They also have a New York Divison which publishes a monthly Bulletin.The website will put you in touch with both. Best wishes,Redbird
Unfortunately Mr. Watson passed away a number of years ago. Jim Greller who written books on the Brooklyn Elevated, Brooklyn Trolleys and the NYCTA Rolling Stock was close to Ed Watson towards the end of his life. I believe he works for NJ Transit however I'm not sure.
D. Rosenthal: Thanks for the response! I have a number of Mr. Greller's books including the two that he did with Mr. Watson. I may be away from N Y but I try to keep in touch through books such as these. Mr. Watson found me a picture of my favorite gate car #902 many years ago but it was a distant shot in the Coney Island yard. I never was able to find another picture.
Karl: I have just the one memory of riding the IRT Gates on the #9 Dyre Av Line, and even that I had to research in later years.I do recall riding Q's and MUDC's on the 3 Avenue El when it went down to Chatham Square. I am told that I rode the #13 Fulton St El in the early 50's which also means C types. In those days to get from the Bronx to Rockaway we would take the IRT Lexington to Fulton St and then the IND A to Rockaway Av or Bway East New York, then transfer to the Fulton St El to I believe Rockaway Blvd and get a Green Line bus.
Quite a roundabout route.
Best Wishes, Redbird
RedbirdR33: I moved from New York in 1962 and have only been back for short visits ever since. My last visit was in 1982 and that was by automobile. I did get to Rockaway once by train before I moved but that was on an R-16. Thinking about it now, it sure would have been a nice ride to make on a gate car, especially to stand on one of the end platforms. I wonder if even a work train of gate cars ever got to Rockaway. I doubt it because I think the Rockaway Line had a covered third rail and the gate cars had a shoe type pickup which required an uncovered third rail. Speaking of the R-16s, does anyone know why the 6400s were delivered before the 6300s? That always seemed backwards to me
Regards, Karl B
Karl: I don't know about the R-16 delivery order but the old BRT did operate BU Gate Cars to the Rockaways from about 1898 to 1918 via the Chestnut St Incline off the Jamaica El. This was during the period of joint BRT/LIRR services.
Regards,Redbird
Redbird: Hey! I'm old, but I'm not that old!! I do have a vague recollection of the LIRR running on ground level on Atlantic Avenue at Crescent Street. They must have put it underground when I was very young! I delivered the "Long Island Press" in that general area in the early 50's and always wondered about the strange steel protrusions from the el structure. I also wondered about the square block between Fulton Street and Atlantic Avenue at Chestnut Street that had no houses on it. It wasn't until recent years that I learned of the old connection between the el and the LIRR. I'd better close now-- us old guys need a lot of sleep!!!!
Regards, Karl B.
Hi, i lived in an apartment house near the Fresh Pond el station and it's train yard behind the trolley barn(got any photos of the barns ? ) we used to play in the barns quite a bit,and on the gate cars as well, it was here i almost died when i could'nt get up onto the platform,so i jumped onto the 3rd rail with both feet then attemped to reach onto the platform when loud crack and a bright flash sent me crashing down onto the ground, it was winter and i had on those rubber boots you put over your shoes with the metal tie downs on and gloves, the boots had a good burn mark across the bottoms and the gloves were also burned,needless to say my friends NEVER AGAIN played in that train yard........but did continue to use the gate cars to go to Westinghouse h.s. at Jay st in Brooklyn for one year then replaced by the q's the gate cars were my favorites in the summer some side panels were removed and sitting at the Metropolitan ave end station the smell of electric and the oil on the wooden ties blended with the soft smell of the trees is still very much in my memory,such was the gate cars....something most this generation will never get to know or love, my favorites was the new dark green cars it seemed they went faster....but then later there was a mixed train old colors brown or black....and the conductors opening the gates by hand and ringing the bells untill the train would start moving.......gota go.....bye
Karl M: It's not too often that I find someone else who spells their name with a "K"!! That was some scary experience you had in Fresh Pond Yards! I guess you know how close you came to not being here today! My parents were divorced, and my dad would pick me up on a Saturday afternoon -- we would ride a Standard to Myrtle Avenue, change to a Gate Car, and ride to Bridge-Jay Street. We would then ride back to Metropolitan Aveue where we would leave the station, buy a coke and some of those foot-long pretzel sticks, walk across the street, and sit on one of those benches outside the cemetery. After a visit, we would take the Gate Cars back to Mrytle and the Standard back home. I would look forward all week to those trips. I thought of that area between Fresh Pond Road and Metropolitan Avenue as being out in the country! Unfortunately, I don't have any pictures of the Gate Cars or yards, other than those in my mind. I didn't get my first camera until I was out of high school.
Best Wishes, Karl B.
Karl, welcome aboard! You're never too old to talk about subway trains or gate cars. There are a few Subtalkers who were regular BMT Southern Division passengers back in the 40s and 50s. You're probably the first gate car customer we've had, let alone a Lexington Ave. el rider; your recollections will add a valuable dimension to Subtalk.
Steve B: Thanks for the welcome. Being away from New York so many years makes me feel like an antique when I see the messages being posted about your current equipment. The most recent cars that I was at all familar with were the R16's and now even they are history. It's funny but when they made their debut (6400's arrived before the 6300's), riders seemed to welcome them as a nice change from the old Standards. I'm sorry that I was so slow in answering but my time on the net is very limited.
The R-16s have the unique distinction of being the only postwar cars other than the R-11s to have had the old BMT number markings on their roll signs as delivered. I'm sure they were welcomed at first, since they alleviated a serious car shortage on the BMT; however, as the years went by, the R-16s became more and more troublesome, both from an operations and a maintenance standpoint. Chances are the deferred maintenence of the late 70s shortened their lives more than anything else. I rode them only twice in my whole life, and then for very brief rides.
The BMT standards were in their final years of service when I rode them on the Canarsie line in the late 60s. I didn't particularly care for them back then because they didn't have any route or destination signs on the ends. They will be remembered as perhaps the most durable subway cars New York has ever had.
My first subway ride was in 1965. Two years later we moved to Jersey and my love affair with subway was rekindled and grew to where it is today. I'm out in Colorado now and make it out to NYC about once a year.
Steve B: Colorado!! Wow!! I thought I was a long way out of town just being in Pennsylvania. If I remember correctly, the brand new R-16's (6400's) started turning up on the Jamaica Line in 1954. Several months before they arrived two trains of R-10's went into service on the run to 168th St. I was told that they were there to familiarize the crews as to what to expect from the new equipment. I was so used to riding the R-10's on the IND it really shocked me to see them on the Jamaica Line. I never ever did get used to those red numbers on those cars. Did they carry red numbers their entire career?
I beat both of ya.....i'm out here in Oregon......ducking the indians arrows and side steping MAX'S light rail cars...which i might add is a hell of a lot quiter than the BMT gate cars heading out to Metropolitan Ave....did you know that the best fireworks came in the winter ? i mentioned before living near Fresh Pond Rd,well at street level the old trolley right of way is under the EL, which is enclosed between main streets by cyclone fencing,well in the 60's portons of the EL had no 3rd rail wood covering as a result when we received a good ice rain the gate cars ,and the steels 3rd rail shoes would arc due to ice buildup.
At night i could see a train coming several stations away just by the sky lighting up from the arcing,but a better sight was at street level at Fresh Pond Rd looking along the EL,as chuncks of blue would fall from the EL above onto the old trolley route, i'll never forget seeing that,the late 60's ended this spetcial as 3rd rail covers were installed,does anyone else rember this winter sight ?
Karl M. - Do I remember!! In the 1940's and the early 1950's, all of the third rails were uncovered on the BMT el lines. This included Broadway, the Jamaica Line, the Myrtle Avenue, the Fulton Street, and we must not forget, the old Lexington Avenue Line. The pick-up shoes on the Gate Cars were mounted in such a way that the third rail could not be covered. I lived less than 100 feet from the Jamaica el's structure on Crescent Street. Sleet, snow, and ice of any type produced beautiful blue lighting all over the neighborhood whenever a train went by, accompanied by some sizzles and some pops!! All of the Gate Cars had brushes mounted in line with their pick-up shoes to brush the third rail. In addition, all of the 700 series Gate Cars were withdrawn from revenue serivce permanently and coupled together in pairs. They were run between regular trains and had special large broom-type brushes to sweep the third rail. I also noticed what appeared to be fifty-five gallon drums sitting on the open platforms of these special snow trains. I often wondered why the drums were there, and what was in them? We still had our lighting effects whenever a train went by, but perhaps it would have been more sensational if the special snow trains were not used at all!
I just wanted to remind you all, that the last wooden el equipment operated on the 3rd Ave El in Manhattan before 1955 and 1960 in the Bronx were (except the Q's) all originally open platform cars.
There was also a work train of non-rebuilt open platform cars in service until the the wooden equipment was replaced by the low-v and Steinway subway cars.
Those rain and ice coverd third rails gave us plenty of exciting scenes along the structure.
No, the red (actually, reddish-orange) numbers were changed to white when the aqua blue paint scheme was ended and the R10s were painted silver/blue, back in the early 1970s. A few years earlier, about 1970, units #1803-1852 got new unit numbers: #2950-2999. These units had their new numbers as plastic or vinyl stickers stuck over the old ones. I remember seeing them peeling off. When the cars were repainted, they got new enameled metal plaques with white numerals in the traditional font. The numbers on the plaques stayed white until the cars were retired in the late 1980s.
Wayne
Wayne: I do remember correctly, don't I, that the R10's were the first cars with florescent lighting? I was so used to incandescent lighting that it was a real treat to ride the IND A train with such bright interiors. When they started running these cars to Jamaica, we really thought we were coming up in the world!! As the R16's started to arrive, florescent lighting sort of became old hat! I also thought that the R10's moved out a lot faster than the Gate Cars or the Standards! I would still love to ride one of those old cars again, especially the Gate Cars.
Karl B.
Indeed, the R10 was the first "B" division car to have flourescent lighting, as were their IRT counterparts, the R12 and later in 1949, the R14 (though this was before my time - I was born the same year as the R16). The R10 was the first SMEE braking car. They were also among (if not the) fastest cars ever to hit the rails. In the days before speed regulation, these cars would roar up Central Park West (and along the Fulton Express) at 55 MPH, and they were capable of doing 60. Among the other distinctive features of the R10 were their ogee roof design, their unique signs above the windows and their unique "caged" fans. I really miss them!
Wayne
The R-10s were also the first cars to have four motors per car, in addition to the SMEE package. On top of that, they were the last cars to have air-operated doors. Thirty of them were sent to the Eastern Division for precisely the reason Karl B gave: to give crews a feel for 60-foot equipment on the way. They remained there until 1959 or thereabouts; if I'm not mistaken, they were even repainted in the same olive drab the R-16s wore originally. At the same time (1956, I believe), 50 R-16s were assigned to the A to help out when the Rockaway line opened. They were sent back to the BMT somewhere around 1958.
While the R-10s were noisy, they could flat out move. I rode many an A train up CPW for the sheer thrill of rocketing past station after station. If you were standing on the uptown platform at 81st St. when an A train happened to thunder past at full speed, you got quite an earful.
There are several of us Subtalkers who sorely miss the R-10s, myself included. They will always be synonimous with the A line, having spent the bulk of their careers there. The A line will never be the same without them.
I was born a month after the last Subway Series in New York, and 19 days after trolley service in Brooklyn came to an end.
Steve B, From what you say I guess that you never had the opportunity to ride an OP in regular service. There was nothing like it. It's a feeling that can't be explained. Looking back I have to admit that a five car train which needed five crew members was really not very efficient for the transit system. I miss New York, I miss the R-10's, I miss the Standards, but most of all, I miss the Open Platform Gate Cars.
No, I never did have the opportunity. I do remember seeing the Qs on the Myrtle Ave. el before it closed up shop, and then I thought they looked a bit peculiar. Well, duh, they were wooden cars, after all.
I also missed out on the Triplexes (barely) and Lo-Vs. The Hi-Vs were pretty much gone by the time I was aware of things.
I mentioned before that my first subway ride was in 1965. We were visiting the city while on vacation, and were living in Indiana at the time. New York was our last stop before heading home. I am a native Hoosier from South Bend. We moved out to Jersey in 1967 and the rest, they say, is history.
BTW, there was to be a Gate Gar Fantrip (NYCTA) a while back - did it ever happen?
With this classic oldtimer (sorry!) thread going on I've got to ask (again!) a S. Division question, MAYBE someone knows the answer to:
There are conflicting reports about the ramp used to get to the 5th Ave El from the 9th Ave station - some say the yard tracks near the 9th Ave Sta, others say using the extra set of ramps a little further west that noone recalls having tracks (and R. Presbrey says in a photo caption for the 1975 SBK fantrip - that these ramps were apparently only used temporarily during construction of the rebuilt junction).
Anyone have MEMORY of this one?????!!!!!!
Hey Steve and all:
Born in Brooklyn in 1956 and grew up in Bath Beach. I was always as a little boy standing under the West End El at Bay Parkway. Always Standards, but something curious happened every weekend by 1963; there would be no standards but all the trains would be R-27s! Then back to the weekdays and the return of the standards. Asked my friend Don Harold about this and he stated this was true, on the weekends all service on the Southern Division was provided by the 27s!
Lo and behold, by 1964 the standards were removed to the Sea Beach and the West End received the D-types in return, where they ran their last.
It's a tossup between the ABs AND the D-types as to my favorites, to me they go together like peanut butter and jelly, you can't have one without the other. Oh well, I collect HO models of subway cars, and these 2 are my favorites, (I'm a Southern Division BMT fan but will also tolerate those R-9 intruders on the Culver line, the IRT is a distant, and I mean distant, third)
Hope to hear more from everyone, this NYCsubway.org site makes me realize there are more subway fans then I thought there was.
Mike
So it's true, then, that the Triplexes weren't used on the West End until the twilight of their careers, if not earlier. This is an oft-repeated story, but I missed their last revenue run by one day! We were in the city on July 21 and 22, 1965, and rode on BMT Southern Division lines exclusively; while we did take a midday TT on the West End once, we didn't see any Triplex trains. We left for home on the 23rd, which was the end of the line for the remaining Triplex units.
I was also born in '56, BTW.
Steve,
It's true, like I said the ABs ran during the weekdays, then the new SMEE R-27s took over ALL Southern division service on the weekends!
Finally during 1964 the switch occurred between the West End and the Sea Beach. That is why the D-types made their final stand on the West End. Funny, but since I was so young I didn't know the nomenclature of the cars, I kept asking my grandfather who worked on 86th st. (hence my always being at Bay Pkwy and 86th st.)what were the Sea Beach cars doing on the West End!
Will get around to seeing Don Harold next week, I will then ask why the switch was made. He's got some funny stories about the TA, especially when they were scrapping all the old cars. For example. when a train of rebuilt ABs accidently wound up on the scrap track at Coney Island and got cut up! Well wouldn't you know they had to renumber some unrebuilts with the scrapped numbers.
Also at least one time a D-type ready for scrap was hooked up to a regular West End road train and went into service! Don says it took at least till 9 Ave before they realized at least one of the units had no interior due to the stripping prior to scrapping!
Must say that while I like the 2nd and 3rd generation cars, without the whine and growl of the old motors, the subways have not been the same. (the r-62s do make some whine while accelerating and do make unique brake noises, but they are IRT, and it just is not the same.
Some interesting notes: Get your pictures now of the Coney Island terminal, it's being rebuilt soon. Also, the "L" line between Sutter and Eastern Parkway will be rebuilt entirely so that only 2 tracks will exist, the rest of the structure is coming down.
I will keep you posted on any news I come across.
Keep in touch
Mike H
You're right about the moaning and groaning of the spur-cut bull and pinion gears on those old cars - it was music to my ears!
Did they really renumber those BMT standards which were rebuilt? I wasn't aware of that.
I think one reason for the switchover of equipment was the fact that by the mid-60s, West End Express service was no longer a 24/7 operation while the Sea Beach still was. It had been scaled back to a rush hour and Saturday service; Mon-Fri it ran roughly from 5:00 AM to 10:00 AM and 3:00 PM to 8:00 PM between Astoria and Coney Island, and Saturdays from 5:00 AM to 8:00 PM between 57th St. and Coney Island. They may have been keeping the practice of using the oldest equipment on part-time routes. Although the standards were older, a number of them were still running on the Eastern Division.
Maybe you could find out just how many Triplex units were still in revenue service on their final day.
P. S. When the R-10s found themselves on the CC after being displaced from the A, chances are some people may have wondered why the A cars were on the CC.
According to Don Harold, it really did happen re: the switching of numbers due to the wrong cars (rebuilt ABs) being on the scrap track and being cut up!
Hopefully, work schedule permitting, I'll be getting together with Don and my friend, Bill Mangahas (he makes the subway calendars)and I'll ask all of the questions you asked.
Its interesting, but according to Don and others, the D-types were probably the best running piece of equipment, they went to the scrapper running beautifully, and this after receiving virtually no maintenance whatsoever for years!
It was explained to me that the reason that the TA decided to scrap the D-types ahead of the remaining ABs was that the TA wanted to go with standardized CONVENTIONAL rolling stock only, and that the D-types were viewed as oddballs.
By the time of the demise of the D-types, virtually all of the ABs operating on the Eastern Division were rebuilts. (not withstanding the switched cars, etc.)
Keep in mind what I said about the Coney Island terminal and the "L" line between Atlantic Ave and Sutter Ave. Contracts will be let out on both projects soon.
I too missed out on the Q-types, never rode them, though I did see them at night a couple of times with my father driving down Flatbush Ave over the Manhattan Bridge. As a final to the Myrtle Ave El, I was on a field trip with my school to the Navy Yard in the winter of 1970 and viewed the el being torn down from the Brooklyn-Queens Expressway.
Oh well, keep in touch
P.s. anyone collect models of the subways in HO, O, or any scale?
Mike H
Yes, I've read about the fact that the Triplexes received almost no maintenance during their careers. It's really a shame they didn't stay around longer; they could have really come in handy a decade or so later when deferred maintenance became a household term. While the rest of the fleet was falling apart, they would have been humming right along. Heck, I'll bet they'd still be running strong today, as well-built as they were, as long as corrosion hadn't set in. Of course, nothing lasts forever, and things do wear out eventually. Technology becomes obsolete, and spare parts become unavailable. All of this would have happened sooner or later - sooner with the R-16s, probably much later with the Triplexes.
If I'm not mistaken, the Multisectionals were still running great when they were retired, although some were withdrawn due to truck problems.
BTW, there was to be a Gate Gar Fantrip (NYCTA) a while back - did it ever happen?
With this classic oldtimer (sorry!) thread going on I've got to ask (again!) a S. Division question, MAYBE someone knows the answer to:
There are conflicting reports about the ramp used to get to the 5th Ave El from the 9th Ave station - some say the yard tracks near the 9th Ave Sta, others say using the extra set of ramps a little further west that noone recalls having tracks (and R. Presbrey says in a photo caption for the 1975 SBK fantrip - that these ramps were apparently only used temporarily during construction of the rebuilt junction).
Anyone have MEMORY of this one????!!!!!
Hello Mike,
I just saw a 1910 postcard view of a ground level station at Bath Beach with the open cars (presuably w/trolley poles).
Where would have that line been? Was the line converted to trolley car service after the the line was rebuilt?
Steve, Picked up on Karl's message and became very interested..
Open platforms are/were a great memory. Lived on Linwood St. in East NY, boarded trains at Cleveland St. {1930's[ My father was regular open platform rider on the Lex Ave. line to Sands St. , he worked for Con Ed at Hudson Ave. I was a frequent rider to downtown Brooklyn on the OP's. In fact rode over the the Brooklyn Bridge when the Lex line used it. At that time it was possibible to stay on the platform in good weather as the trainmen were lenient. The open side cars were a real treat riding on the street side was comparable to Bungee jumping. The OP,s operated on the J line as
far 111th st. during hours. I am also in PA
Serge M, Hi! We must have been neighbors so to speak. I delivered the Long Island Press on the entire length of Norwood Ave for five years. If that wasn't fun trying to sell a Queens' newspaper to people in Brooklyn. I never knew there was a problem riding the open platforms. Passengers could not ride on the front or rear platforms but could ride any platforms between cars. I just moved to the opposite side from the station as the train entered the station. Did you by any chance get to ride the Last Lex on Oct 13th, 1950? It was a sad but a memorable experience. My dad surprised me the next week with one of those interior steel destination signs lettered 111th St. I still have it and it brings back a lot of memories.
Hi Karl ,Perhaps we were neighbors, believe it or not we read the
LIP because of a schoolmate delivering it. I attended PS 108 at Linwood & Arlington and HS at Manhattan Aviation Trades located
on E 63rd in Manhattan at the timr, I was a Jamaica Line rider for many years. I became a railfan at the age of 6 and never lost it.
I witnessed the construction of the East New York shops and the
opening of the ext. from Chambers to Broad Sts.I was thinking
about the destination signs on the OP's , is the the one you have red & white ? My memory is still fairly sharp and I try to be as accurate as I can be in my reminiscing.
Hi Serge, I lived off Crescent St on a one block long street called Campus Place. I attended PS 171 at Ridgewood and Lincoln Ave and high school at Franklin K Lane on Jamaica Ave near Elderts Lane. A classmate of mine lived near you, his father had an optical shop on Fulton St. I think the name was Podos. I'll bet you even remember the Embassy Theatre and the Arlington Ave Library. Do you remember the LIRR running on the surface on Atlantic Ave. As a kid I looked forward each day to rush hour when the OP's would start running out to 111th St. I kept a record of all of the OP's that were painted green. The sign that I have is painted black with white lettering. Do you remember the Embassy Carriage Shop on Fulton near Logan? That guy had the biggest selection of Lionel Trains in Brooklyn. I delivered the LIP on Norwood Ave for almost five years.
Ah, yes, Franklin K. Lane High School. I was there once, in early 1968, for a recital concert by a Lithuanian family a la the von Trapp Family Singers. They didn't get very good reviews and slid into obscurity shortly thereafter. Anyway, I actually talked my folks into letting me ride the subway first, and I took a JJ, which was the letter equivalent of the old #14 and #15 routes, of R-27/30s all the way out to 168th St. and back to Elderts Lane. I missed the entire first half of the program, which my mother thought was better than the second half.
Speaking of the JJ, during PM rush hours, it mimicked the #14 Broadway-Brooklyn local, and ran from Canal St. to Atlantic Ave. or Rockaway Parkway or Crescent St. During AM rush hours, it ran in skip-stop service along Jamaica Ave. with the new QJ route, terminating at Canal St. The rest of the time, it ran as the old #15 Jamaica local to Broad St., even though route signs on the R-27s and R-30s billed it as the Nassau St. local. On July 1, 1968, it was dropped with the introduction of the rush hour KK route, and the QJ took over for it.
Steve: This was another of the Chrystie St stories. The R-27's and up had a route reading "KK Nassau St Lcl" which was intended to replace the old #14 as you said. Instead the TA used the JJ for two very different services;the off hour Jamaica-Broad St run and the rush hour Bway-Bklyn Lcl services.
Redgards,Larry,Redbird
Yes, you're quite right. There are photos of R-32s showing their KK signs up front. It would be interesting to find out the rationale of using the JJ marking to cover two different routes. Maybe the JJ was considered an interim marking, to be used until the KK as we knew it was implemented on July 1, 1968. Supposedly, changing ridership patterns brought about the end of Broadway-Brooklyn-to-Canarsie service.
Hi Karl, Gate car topic is leading down memory lane. There was a card & gift shop on Fulton just beyond Crescent St. which sold balsa airplane kits sometimes while waiting for store to open I would around block Campus Place. Yes I recall the toy store at Logan St, actually
there were two Schwartzallels [Spelling ?] on corner and another next
to it. One of my Lionels came from there.Embassy & Loews Warwick
were regular haunts.There was a section of elevated structure leading off the J line between Euclid & Pine toward the LIRR remains
of a Rockaway connection.I lived on the corner of Linwood & Atlantic
{north Side] living room faced the LIRR el structure so I watched thousands of LI trains before they "ditched" it. Freight yard at Montauk Ave where East NY Vocational is now I left Brooklyn in 1943 to offer my expertise to the US Navy in order to win WW2 and
winning it [with some help ] I drifted away from NYC. My interest in
transit is new and I have a lot to learn about todays system. Oh yes Dr Podos was a marker for correct car door for Canal St.[ Cleveland St
Sta.].
Hi Serge: Talk about a small world! The store you are talking about was called the Sterling Art Shop, later Sterling Gift Shop. My step-father clerked there during most of WW II and for several years thereafter. This was after he was let go by the NYC because of an eye problem. The best place to get models would have been Sonny's Hobby Shop which was in the same building as the Embassy Theater. A lot of my trains came from the Embassy Carriage Shop as well through my paper route earnings in the late 40's.
I think the elevated structure you remember was between Euclid and Chestnut. It was gone during my time, but the stub of it still remained attached to the el on Fulton Street, and that whole square block between Fulton and Atlantic was an empty lot. I guess you must have left NY before they started painting the open platform gate cars green. That paint job was what started my interest in transit. Nothing looked better than one of those cars in a fresh coat of green paint with a grey roof! I often wondered why they were painted in the 40's, only to be scrapped shortly after the Last Lex in October, 1950.
Incidentally, what IS a Schwartzallel? Is it somehow connected to the Embassy Carriage Shop? Karl B.
Hi Karl, Re Schwarzaffel, I believe that was the Empire Carriage store
in my day.I left NYC while the transit fare was still a nickel ! At time the
gate cars were brown or grimy, what shade of green were they done in? Does the Transit Museum have OP in collection ? Also do you
recall the Warwick St. station on the LIRR when it was elevated on
Atlantic Ave?
Hi Serge, I forgot, you left the city in 1943. My first dealings with Embassy Carriage Shop was Christmas 1947. The owner was a WWII vet so he was obviously not there yet in your time. I do remember the nickel fare though, it went to a dime around 1948. They started to paint the gate cars green around the end of the war. I think the first car painted was #938. That was the first one that I saw. They never finished painting all of them. The green was sort of a medium green that was very attractive. I have no pictures so I can't give the green a name, perhaps someone else here can. There were no OP's saved but they did rebuild three Q cars to look like OP's and gave them a maroon paint job that probably existed before both of our times. They don't look right because they did not restore the clerestory roofs. The three cars are at the museum. I am a Lionel operator but I do not have any transit models, I wish I did! I have a very faint memory of the LIRR at ground level at Crescent and Atlantic. Regards, Karl.
Hi Karl, Yes apparently there were changesof owners of the toy store.
My Lionel fstable consisted of a 248 Box cab electric, a260E steam,
the ptride of the fleet The City Of Denver. WishI had them now. I
am in HO & N. Thanks for the info on the paint on thr OP's I'm glad
that didn't look like Model Diecasting"s Overtons. Sorry to hear that none were saved but I will still make it to thr Transit Museum.
The BMT played a major role in my life, to many of us of that era it was what a car is to most people today. When I had to travel it meant using the J line or Lex or any other as needed. OP's intigued me for some reason. I have picked up a lot of info on the web site but the changes in the transit system are tremendous..
Regards-Serge
Hi Serge, I am one up on you. I still have my childhood Lionel. Mine was a little later though, all postwar Lionel.
If you get a chance, check the museum roster at this site. There is a picture of #659 that you can bring up to view. It looks very faded to me and I suppose it's possible that the museum has repainted the car as well. I am afraid that it is all but impossible to find a color picture that would truly depict those new green paintjobs of the late 1940's. I'll keep looking though.
Last fall I came across a floor plan I drew up as a kid where my family could make a nice home out of two of those cars. A kitchen, dining room, and living room in one, with three bedrooms and a bath in the other. The cars would have been set end to end so you could still operate the gates. I sure was a dreamer!!
Regards, Karl.
There is a three-car set of open platform el cars at the Transit Museum. If I'm not mistaken, they were rebuilt into Q cars in 1938, then re-rebuilt to their original appearance some 20 years ago.
Steve B Did you see my message in this thread on Feb 20 21:43:26, especially the second part? The major difference to me is the absence of those clerestory roofs. I have never seen the re-rebuilt cars in person, but from pictures I see other differences as well. They now have subway-type third rail shoes. They no longer have the original couplers either. The platform gate hardware looks a little different as well. I would imagine the hardware is not the same as the four cars up at Branford. I wonder if this hardware came from 3rd Ave OP's or was specially constructed for this re-rebuilding. Do you know how the maroon color was selected? Is this the original color that the cars were delivered in back at the turn of the century?
When the Q's were transfered from Brooklyn to the Third Av El they were placed on IRT Composite Type Maximum Traction trucks which lifted them up a few inches. If you vist the TA Museum and see the Q or the three BU's you will notice right away the higher floor as compared to the other cars. When the Q's returned to the BMT in 1957 it was found that they could not clear Dekalb Av due their increased height so the roofs were lowered to the present height. The BMT had always had some difficulty with the clerestory roofs on the el cars after the Fulton St El was closed west of Rockaway Av and the 5 Av El was razed. Eastern Division elevated equiptment had to run through Centre St to reach the Coney Island shops, however the BU's with there high roofs could not clear the Nassau St Line so the trains form East New York would relay at Chambers St and run over the Manhattan Bridge south tracks to reach Coney. The placing of the Q's on the Composite trucks only exacerbated the problem, so the roofs were lowered.I understand that the maroon color was applied to the Q's when the returned to Brooklyn in 1957.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, Redbird - You have enlightened me once again! I guess that is really all the more reason to say that they look different than the open platform gate cars as I remember them. It turns out that the floors are now higher too.
Goodbye for now, I hope to return if and when we can get our computer problems solved. Karl B
Since the M-4 has been introduced on the Market-Frankford line, I have noticed what seem to be serious reliability problems with the new M-4 fleet.
Electronic signs not lit or not working at all, audio announcements not working or barely audible, and only one-half of a door opening are just some of the many problems I see every single week. Keep in mind that the vast majority of these cars are less than a year old.
This morning I boarded a car at 34th street, and every other cabin light was off. A few seconds after the train started moving, they magically came on. Mid-day today, I rode a car where only the left half of every door opened on one side of the car. Am I just having really bad luck with these new cars, or is the electrical system on these cars fundamentally flawed?
To give SEPTA and AdTranz credit, they do seem to have fixed problems with the audio announcements being triggered at the wrong times. (Such as hearing "Please stand clear of the doors" when the train was going full-speed between stations...) And they managed to come up with a pretty good fix for the poorly-designed emergency door-release handles. But what about these other problems?
Are these sorts of problems simply to be expected with new rolling stock, even though testing has been complete for over a year now?
To those of you that remember, when the M-4's first came out, I was their biggest fan. Now, after I've been proven 60% wrong, I'd rather keep the M-3's.
The biggest problems I've noticed are always the doors and the brakes.
I've been on trains where the train overshot the platform by 2-4 cars.
And I've never been on a ride without some kindofdoor problem.
They've been spending all this money and shutting down the West Philly El to upgrade the 3rd rail, why don't they upgrade the cars!!!
Just put them into 69th St overhaul and fix those suckers for the riding public!
As for the lights, are you sure that wasn't because of any breaks with the 3rd rail?
I have about 50/50 reliability with riding the M4-s... my favorite falicy so far was the ride four weeks ago with the announcement system ONE STOP OFF the entire route. I was tempted to ride to see what would happen at FTC.
Rich - almost sounds like something our Alma Mater would throw together?
D
-fellow drexel is major
Ok, so we have M-3's and 4's. Are there any -1's or -2's (is that
even right?) stored in yards anywhyere?
-Lee
Unfortunately, no. The 1906 Brills were scrapped en mass in 1961. Two 1922 Frankford Brills were kept as work equipment, but I believe they are long gone now. Perhaps one of the Philly regulars can update this.
Remember, PTC in the 1960's was controlled by National City Lines. Presevation of any equipment was low on their list.
I think the '22 cars are still around, but if they are, they'll probably go when the Budds get demoted to work service.
Hey guys speaking about those M-4 cars. I would just like to add that I have been on trains that over shot the station. But has anybody been on one that was backing? Three weeks ago I boarded at Frankford and every time the train pulled out of a station it seemed to buck about three times then it would be fine. Was this the train or maybe the operater having problems? It's a shame these cars are having these problems because they do ride nice and are quiet.
Who built the M-4's?
AdTranz - that "Quality???? Shop". The company that can't deliver an order on time or to spec. SEPTA's been burned by them with the M-4's, and got a $22M signal system instead of contract penalties. The Baltimore MTA got 18 LRV's that were late, had ride and control problems, and refused to MU properly with the ABB built original 35 cars. The MTA shop worked the bugs out, all 18 now operate properly. (Interestingly, the AdTranz cars bear builder's plates that state "Built by ABB Traction, Elmira New York." Nary a mention of AdTRanz.)
Betcha 3-1 that when we need more LRV's, AdTranz is denied bid rights. Wonder if local defense contractor/transit builder AAI Corp. will get in the LRV assembly business?
Nevermind the stellar reliability of the AEM-7 / ALP44, yet another quality ABB product. I've heard the M-4s won't let you throw the controller into the highest notch and accelerate from a standstill like every other train since the turn of the century has been able to do. Apparently, the computer complains about this, instead of handling it, like eveything else does. At leat Baltamore fixed their LRV problems, the Boeing crap that Boston and San Francisco got forced into buying has never worked right from what I hear. I know the Boston cars are lousey (they whine like hell too), and the SF cars screw up signal systems, etc. I heard Boeing didn't even get the wheels right when they delivered the first ones.
What scares me more than anything is that ABB makes nuclear power plants, and there are a number of ABB plants in the US operating (though in all fairness they can't possibly be worse than the Babcock and Wilcox reactors, though B&W doesn't boast of their impact on the nuke industry - they built Three Mile Island)
Don't know about the ALP44, but the AEM7 was built by EMD under license. The Boeing "Bombs" show you what happens when you get equipment from somebody who never built a rail vehicle before and tries to. Garratt was not a traction motor/control shop, either. The original 35 ABB Traction cars were built right - three "test" cars, work out the bugs on them, them built everything else. When MTA began receiving cars every three days, it took only four days to test and accept. When the cars received their five year overhaul, other than some water found where it wasn't supposed to be, nothing major was found. The cars have been available for service 98% of the time. That's how happy MTA was with them. By the time the contract extension for the additional 18, ABB Traction had combined with a unit of Daimler-benz to become AdTranz, and the rest is bad history. Our three extensions opened in 1997, all 18 were finally delivered in 1998! They were supposed to be delivered BEFORE the extensions opened.
The sorry story of the M-4's is generally well known. AdTranz has a major part of the blame, but there's enough tar to coat SEPTA, who has a sorry history when it comes to railcars since the Kawasaki's.
I was just in 69th Street shops today with a well known SEPTA RAILFAN Bob Hughes. An M-4 set 1015-16 was in the shop with everything torn apart inside.Didnt get the story on what was going on but when I do I will post it.It ashame that set was about a year old and is probably being retrofitted to MAYBE perform better.
B Division Motormen & Conductors are scheduled to begin picking Monday 2/1/99. It will take effect late April or early May (exact date to be announced). The WillyB will be closed 24/7; the B/Q will resume regular service between 57/6 & 21 St./ Queensbridge; and C service to WTC will be a thing of the past. You will see J/Z skip stop service in both directions between Eastern Pkwy. & Parsons Blvd. during the AM & PM rush. The M will terminate at Marcy Ave.; the J at Bway/Myrtle; and the Z at Eastern Pkwy. (during the times of its' operation). I can't be specific as to number of trains per hour on various lines and headways because timetables have not been distributed yet and train lengths as well have not been announced on the C, M, Essex to Broad shuttle, etc. There won't be too much M service from Bay Pkwy to Chambers St. during the AM rush: all 10 CIYD put ins will make a 1/2 trip to Chambers St. and lay up for PM service. And the first train won't leave Bay Pkwy. until 7:05 AM and won't arrive at Broad St. until 7:44! Essex to Broad shuttle service (Chambers on weekends) will operate from 6AM to 10 PM 7 days per week. Looks like lots more service on the E/F thru Queens as well as the L due to the WillyB closing. The C will not run 24/7 as some on this site have thought. From canvassing the jobs, here are the hours of operation I came up with: M/F from 168 St.: 5:18 AM to 9:56 PM. From Euclid Ave.: 5:57AM to 10:19 PM. Saturday from 168 St.: 5:39 AM to 9:54 PM. From Euclid Ave.: 5:53 AM to 10:07 PM. Sunday from 168 St.: 6:59 AM to 10:10 PM. From Euclid Ave.: 7:13 AM to 10:22 PM.
Will the A run Fulton Express on Weekends when C runs?
The A will run via Fulton express on weekends when the C runs
When will the B Divison Pick be in Effect.
Late April or early May, the same time when the A division pick goes into effect. They will begin to pick after the B division people conclude theirs. Needless to say, it doesn't take the A division too many weeks to pick. Both divisions will pick up increased non rush hour service, including weekends, at the time of implimentation.
I can ALMOST understand the need for frequent RTO picks because train service is (or has traditionally been) seasonal. In the Division of Car Equipment, virtually every hourly employee gets to pick a job, based on seniority, twice every year. The picks take over one month to conduct and as a manager, I find the frequent manpower switches can be disruptive. There is the collecting and re-distributing of tools, re-assignment of lockers, transfer of personel files and re-arranging vacation picks, all which must be contended with on a twice-yearly basis. Of course there are also advantages to picks. It allows an employee to 'better his lot' by continually enabling him (or her) to pick a job with better hours, closer to home or better days off, every six months. This also keeps boredom down, allows problem employees to make a fresh start and permits some to stay one step ahead of the disciplinary process.
I am quite sure that in the other operating divisions of the NYCT, bi-annual picks are also done. My question is, how is this handled in the private sector (where I have had little experience)? For example, does GM alow employees to pick different line jobs periodically? [I've heard that in companies like Saturn, jobs are rotated to maintain interest]
Picking on the railroads is similar, but differs in that there is continual picking. Ie; If I have more seniority than you and I like your job, then it's mine any time I ask for it, and now you do the same to someone under you. This goes on constantly, and only the senior people have any kind of continuity in thier work schedrules. Amtrak is worse as thier seniority is nationwide! It takes 18 or more years to get a job an Pensylvania station or 22 or more for Sunnyside yard.
I've heard that general seniority does not relate to the AUTOTRAIN and that they have their own list....
Don't know about that. My information comes from working out of Pennnsylvania Staion a few years back with NJT. As a car inspector there I used to talk to some of the Amtrak guys sometimes.
An odd note though; If you were originally an employee of PennCentral Then you had transfer rights after the breakup, meaning If you had decided to go to Conrail, say and you were'nt happy. Then you could transfer over to Amtrak. Some guys went back and forth a couple of times. I' not sure if they can still do that though.
These railway pick systems are pretty humorous, all this meticulous
attention to seniority! I didn't realize Amtrak had the system
Erik described -- imagine having your job picked out from under
you on a day's notice! At least with the TA system, you get 6-8
months of stability. But of course it takes forever, because it
implements a strictly ordered serial decision process. Motorman
Joe with file number 1234 can't make his decision until Motorman
Al with number 1233 makes his first, and so on down the line.
This is not the norm in the private sector. I know folks
who have gone to work in quasi-blue-collar positions in places
such as Con Ed, New York Telephone and Domino Sugar. In some
cases, you get hired into a particular shift and job function
and as things change, you have to apply individually to change
it and move up. In other cases, there is some sort of rotation
system in effect that keeps new employees interested and exposes
them to all of the aspects of the business operation. At least
the rotation is planned and predictable. Eventually
they settle down into a permanent position.
My father is an "A" mechanic at ConEdison. He replaces natural gas piping and such. I'll try and remember to ask him how it works over there.
On the MBTA in Boston a new pick is done every 3 months in coordination with timetable changes. HOWEVER workers can only pick new work within their current rating station (carhouse or bus garage). Workers forced out by schedule changes can bid in elsewhere based on seniority. Every two years there is a system pick where everyone can pick a new rating station. This covers every trade covered by the carmen's union, bus drivers, motormen, guards, car repairmen, car cleaners, collectors, and porters (station cleaners). Other trades also pick within their own trade. A bus mechanic (machinists union) can't easily become a car repairman (carmen's union), but can get Everett Shop work on parts for cars where his union does the work.
Workers can bid on work which becomes available anywhere during a rating, but only if nobody already at that rating station wants it. Seniority of course decides when more than one person bids.
Rating Stations are:
Rapid Transit
CABOT (All Red Line except Mattapan Ashmont)
WELLINGTON (All Orange Line)
ORIENT HEIGHTS (All Blue Line)
Surface Lines
Central
CABOT (Cabot and Albany Bus Garages)
ARBORWAY (Bartlett St. Garage and Mattapan-Ashmont Trolley)
BENNETT ST. (Part of Charlestown Garage and North Cambridge Carhouse)
CHARLESTOWN (Remainder of Charlestown Garage and Fellsway Garage)
RESERVOIR (Riverside, Reservoir, and Boston College Carhouses)
Suburban
QUINCY (Quincy Garage)
LYNN (Lynn Garage)
It's interesting that even within the TA there are different rules that apply (for the most part) to union/title/authority:
MABSTOA is all Manhattan & Bronx depots save 126th (that's TA). For bus operators they can switch depots once a year at the system pick. Then there are 3 depot picks a year (usually March, June, September).
Maintainers in the OA can switch specialties, but then must go to bottom of the list for that pick. Next pick, if they stay in that specialty the get back the seniority of where they would have been based on hire dates (the normal method).
TA 126th, Queens Village, Flushing (Stengel), and Jamaica each have separate seniority lists for bus operators. If a driver switches depots the go to the bottom of the list.
The bus maintainers in Queens are one list for each specialty and can freely switch without loss of seniority.
Brooklyn (Gleason, Flatbush, Fresh Pond, Ulmer Park, ENY) are one seniority list for all the drivers. They have one system and three depot picks a year. The mechanics in Brooklyn depots plus the Base Shop at ENY are one list for each title.
Staten Island has one list for bus operators and each of the maintenance titles. When an employee arrives in SI he/she is at the bottom of the list.
This leads to an interesting situation where a new driver gets into Staten Island and later a driver with 10 years on the job decides to got to SI too, the 10 year vet is less senior to the new driver!
Then there is the way work is picked:
In Brooklyn there are separate schedules for school open and school closed day. Drivers there can pick different runs for each day of the week. Then if they have to work on Sat and Sun, they can pick any run on the route they picked.
In the rest of buses, all of the work is fully packaged, that is you pick the run, days off and weekend work together. This includes the day off relief jobs packaged with 3, 4 or 5 different runs.
The Plant & Equipment group in buses maintain the depots and other buses locations. Their members can switch within all TA or OA locations, but changing from SI to Brooklyn or Queens changes their union. But some of these titles actually pick with the subways maintainers of the same titles.
In Rapid Transit, the crews pick a weekday run, their days off and weekend work if needed separately. The day off relief jobs can be made up by the employees as regular jobs are picked.
The Stations Department pick a booth and tour. If the booth is open seven days, they pick the days off. The day off relief clerks pick from what's left. They have to wait for all of the regular work to be picked.
In the power control center, they do not pick. A whole 'watch' works together (perhaps as many as 20 employees). They have a annual scheule of days off and tours that rotate. So over a year every watch gets all tours and day off combinations. The only way to move up and switch watches, is through jobs becomming open on other watches (by retirement or promotions) and then submitting a bid for the opening.
One correction: BY CONTRACT, there are a minimum of three Picks a year for Bus Operators. However, in practice there are four Picks, and in some cases there are five (in 1998, for example, Jackie Gleason and Ulmer Park each had five Picks). The Picks generally correspond to the seasons.
David
Help! I am VERY interested in the latest round of proposals regarding the new subway lines. I was little older than a toddler when the line 2nd Avenue line was proposed in the 70s and have followed the issue ever since. Can you guys humor me for a second? Let's fantasize that this thing is actually built (complete with service from Co-Op City all the way down 2nd Avenue and into Brooklyn and out to Queens via Atlantic Avenue). Do any of you know what stations would be built? I grew up in Bed-Stuy and live in Fort Greene, Brooklyn and am especially concerned about the stations that may be built along Atlantic Avenue. What about along 2nd Avenue and in the Bronx? What about through the Lower East Side and into Brooklyn. I am REALLY interested in this project and hope that some version of it (if not the complete version) is built. Help me find out this information my fellow straphangers.
Thanks.
As has been talked to death and back here, the infamous non-subway was to have the following stations:
Whitehall St, connecting to the N/R
Pine/Wall St,with afull mezzanine from Wall to John Sts
Chatham Square
Grand St, running alongside the B/D/Q
Houston St
7th St
14th St
23rd St
34th St
42nd St
And I'm not sure about stations past that, but it was to be connected to the 63rd St line.
There is a whole section about it in the "Building the New York Subway" section.
How far down Atlantic Ave. could it have gone? Isn't the LIRR on Atlantic Avenue?
The LIRR on Atlantic would be converted to LIRR, today's article says.
What does that mean?
How would the new subway line run down Brooklyn's Atlantic Avenue on the LIRR tracks? Does this mean that the LIRR would be discontinued or would new tracks be created thus widening the elevated strucutre along Atlantic. Someone sent me a list of proposed station stops? It listed only one stop at Utica Avenue and then another at Broadway Junction. Those seem rather far apart.
I pulled up RPA "Metrolink" report. No station stops from Atlantic Avenue terminal to Jamaica Queens. Why is that? What about using the Nostrand Avenue and East New York/Broadway Junction stations that currently exist for the Long Island Railroad. At the very least, I'd think that a station would be built at Utica Avenue and also at Woodhaven Boulevard. What do you all think?
This seems to be the least thought out part of the RPA's plan. Unless they widen the tunnel under Atlantic, you would just be swapping the LIRR serivce for a new subway line, and if they share the tracks, the subways would have to follow the stricter federal guidlines, as PATH does.
Add to that the previously-discussed problem of trying to snake a new line through from South Ferry into Brooklyn and then over, under and around all the other existing lines to the Flatbush Ave. terminal, and it seems like someone at the RPA just wanted a high-speed connection between Jamaica and downtown Brooklyn and didn't both to weigh the real-world problems or costs involved.
It would be cost-effective to reuse the existing (but abandoned) Woodhaven station along the LIRR as opposed to building another one at Woodhaven Boulevard. It is located approx. at 102nd Street. They would only have to expand the entrance area for purposes of fare control, and install new lighting.
BTW, west of there there is a branch-off leading to the former Rockaway ROW that could be used if they ever resurrect it for JFK service. It is single track and would require crossing at grade but it is there nevertheless.
Wayne
If you want the full plan just go to www.rpa.com its available there.
You can download the complete RPA Metrolink report (36 pages with lots of maps) at http://maestro.com/~rpa/metrolnk.html
BobA.
Could you please tell us what search engine you used to find the Metrolink report and at the same time is the web address correct?
Thanks, RonJ.
Yes the address is correct; I just tried it. (there's no www)
The RPA home page is at http://www.rpa.org
The LIRR would be converted to Subway, today's article says.
I don't know what made me hit "back" before responding.
What article? NY Post? Daily News? Times?
I will assume the stations already in place INCLUDING WOODHAVEN which would no doubt get a second life would remain with any additional A.A. line stations a good question. At least one elevated stop, say, around Kingston/Schenectady/Utica area - near the Nehemiah houses would be good.
Wayne
As most of you know the 10 MVM machines were turned on at two locations in Mahattan. The report from my TA source is that they're selling a lot of MetroCards.
Interesting fact: Out here in Queens somehow we got two of them on our local service. We only have express service to Mahattan, so how did these two get to Queens within the 2 hours to dip it into our farebox.
Addition input: I was now told that if you initially use the card on a bus, Mahattan or elsewhere, you can ASK for a magnetic Transfer to get you on another bus (the farebox SHOULD keep the Green Card). However if you use it on the subway no Transfer. I'll bet the card is good for two hours PERIOD, so use it on the subway & when you get to Queens dip it on a bus. I would be interested in someone trying this.
[Anyone remember my first report that the Green Card wouldn't work on a bus ? The tail is still wagging the dog here]
Mr t__:^)
Thurston,, why not try this: code a Green card at , say 68-Lex (hot off the press) and try to use it like a Regular Metrocard(which will be valid at 63-Lex.
And yet another proposal for the TA to ponder: From
The Daily News(once
again)13B Rail Plan Would Add Line, Cut Trip Time
As Yogi Berra would say, it sounds like deja vu all over again. Can everyone say Second System?
What do you mean by second system? Do you mean a separate subway system that is not fully compatable with the current one? Like BART and MUNI in San Fran?
I am referring to the IND Second System or Phase 2 portion of lines which were proposed in 1929, but were never built due to the Depression. They are discussed elsewhere on this website.
This is just another rehash of the RPA plan.
-Hank
I know that there are portions of the Grand Concourse subway that are above ground and even one station where you have to go down to the street from the subway.
My question is, to anyone who uses Philly's Roosevelt Expwy(US 1 north of I-76, which later becomes Roosevelt Blvd.), you'll notice that when Broad St crosses over, there is a large metal underside that appears big enough for the BSS to travel through. Does it pass through there, or does it pass under the Expressway like it does at Vine St?
The D & C line in The Bronx are TOTALLY underground in a tunnel. Your info is incorrect.
The Concourse IND line is underground withal; the Kingsbridge Road station is strange in that you go down to enter and then up to the platforms. Could you be thinking of the nearby Jerome Avenue #4 IRT line, which is three blocks west and elevated from 157th Street and River Avenue to its terminus at Woodlawn?
Wayne
Doesn't the Concourse line go over the Cross Bronx Expressway?
Good point! Yes it does go over the Cross Bronx Expressway. But do not forget: the subway was there long before the expressway. They dug very deep, under the subway tunnel for the expressway. Vvvery interesting! When riding on the Cross Bronx,one would never know that behind that wall, is the C & D train.
One very small observation: the C no longer runs on the Concourse line. During rush hours, the B supplements the D as of last March.
Wayne: I think what Jack means is that although the stations are underground they can be accessed from underneath say by a crosstown street. I believe this occurs at several of the Concourse Line stations. However Jack's question seems to be about the Broad St Line in subway passing over a highway. There is a similar case here in New York where the Jerome Avenue Line in subway under the Grand Concourse passes over the NYCRR (okay MNRR) Hudson Line tracks near Cardinal Hayes High School. The 4 Avenue Subway does this also at some point south of 59 St-4 Av. The Brooklyn folks will know exactly where. Maybe some of the Philly people could answer Jack's question.
Regards,Redbird
Yes, Kingsbridge Road is a fine example of this: KBRd ducks under the Concourse (well, the one-lane service-roads do intersect it), and down underneath the Concourse is an entrance to the subway. I am not sure if this is still open. I do know that the entrances on the SE and SW corners of KBRd and Gd.Concourse have been shut and sealed over; the entrances on the NW and NE corners are still open, as is the one in the underpass, I do believe - please correct me if I am wrong. You do have to go upstairs from the mezzanine level to platform level at KBRd. I use KBRd station when I go up to visit my brother-in-law and it depends on where I'm taking off from in Manhattan whether I use the "D" or the #4.
Wayne (KBrd is ultramarine blue w/a cobalt blue border)
I'll bet you'd take the B if the slant R-40s were still assigned to it.
Peg and I were up and down the G line today between 8:30AM and 11:45AM and I ran into yet ANOTHER unusual door chime - in car #5927. This chime sounds at "A" and "F" with harmonics, almost exactly duplicating the opening notes of "Stand Or Fall" by The Fixx (c)1983. This is the ONLY UNIT in the bunch which does this.
Oh, we also saw #8660 on the 6 line going in the opposite direction and made note that ONLY #8660 has the Kawasaki bars, #8661 is same as she ever was. (for those who made mention of this in posts a few weeks ago).
Man am I tired! I spent nine hours in the subway to-day!
Wayne
"I've been on the subway for nine hours"
Wayne: It's a tough job but someones has to do it.
Best Wishes,Redbird
Nine hours?!? Surely you must have ridden some slant R-40s at some point.
I've done some marathon subway riding myself on occasion. My mother and I went into the city on July 20, 1967 to do just that. I don't remember every train we took, but a few highlights stand out. An A from 42nd St. all the way out to Broadway-ENY. My first experience with the R-10s (how does everyone feel about "Thunderbirds" for an R-10 nickname?), plus the first time I noticed we were on an express as we rocketed past a local stop with I-beams flashing by ("Hey, we're skipping this stop!"). From there, it was the Canarsie all the way back to 8th Ave., then to Union Square. It marked the first time I saw and rode a train of BMT standards, and at the time, my first impression was one of disenchantment, to say the least. No signs up front; that did it. From Union Square to DeKalb on probably an N; I do remember seeing a pre-Chrystie St. Q train of R-27s. From DeKalb back to Manhattan to 34th St. (saw the abandoned Myrtle Ave. platform), then to Rockefeller Center, where we took a tour of NBC Studios and caught a glimpse of a taping session of the original Match Game with Gene Rayburn. After all that, my mother wanted to know how long it would take to get to Coney Island, but we didn't go when I said it would take an hour. Otherwise, we would have missed our bus home from Port Authority.
Getting back to those door chimes, what sort of harmonics did you hear? If the chimes on 5927 sounded A and F, and if the chimes on the other cars sounded E and C, you would have nice, parallel fifths, which were considered a no-no by most composers, and which we were always reprimanded for by music theory instructors.
It actually sounded like "F" and "C" were blended in ever so slightly with the "A" and "F". The chime sound was very pleasant. Since we were inside the car we could barely hear the chimes in the other units. I did try and listen at Fulton Street (we got on at Clinton-Washington). It DID sound like "Stand or Fall". I would love to get my hands on a studio version of that song - the Greatest Hits by the Fixx has it as a live track. The album with the studio version is out of print. I should have bought it when it came out. It was a 45 too. Rats.
As for the Slants - we rode NOT A ONE (Peg was directing the photo shoot) - BUT we did see TWO of them in opposite directions at Lorimer Street at the same time. Westbound had #4400 at the front, #4418 (my Christmas Card car) at the rear; Eastbound had #4412 up front with #4439 at the rear. We rode on twelve different R46's on the "G" and about eight different "A"s, mostly R44s with two R38's thrown in for good measure -#3980 and #4130.
Wayne
Ah - our paths must have crossed as I was on the north end of the G line until noon (1/28)
Perhaps, we went as far as 21st Street-Van Alst station then turned round and headed back to Hoyt-Schermerhorn. It took us three solid hours to cover the stretch from Fulton Street to 21st Street. We got off at every single stop and took pictures at each.
21st Street-Van Alst station looks like there is a spring running through it. There is standing rust (or mineral) water in the mezzanine (behind the iron fence) and also there's a huge glob of brown and orange gook on the southbound wall with water running right out of it. The ceiling needs a paint job right away, maybe this is from the moisture.
Wayne
Wayne: If you stopped at every station on the Crosstown Line. I would
say that you paid your railfan dues for the rest of the year. Given the long headways on the G I'm surprised your back even now. I was on the C the other day and saw a mismatched pair of R-32A's,3548-3593.
Best Wishes, Redbird
Here's the tale of the tape:
8:25am lv HoytSchermerhorn
8:28-8:33am Fulton
8:36-8:47am Classon
8:49-9:01am Bedford-Nostrand
9:07-9:17am Flushing
9:20-9:36am Broadway
9:38-10:09am Metro-Grand with a diversion to Lorimer Street BMT
10:12-10:24am Nassau
10:30-10:40 21st-Van Alst
10:43-10:54 Greenpt
11:02-11:14 Myrtle-Willoughby
11:20-11:28 Clinton-Washington
11:34 back to HoytSchermerhorn
A very interesting line with many variations on the IND themes.
Wayne
To repeat a question from a few weeks ago:
Are there any signs at Bedford-Nostrand directing passengers to the outer tracks? I can vaguely remember "All trains this side" signs with a long arrow on each sign pointing away from the middle track.
The signs are there. they say "All trains on opposite track." you read this when facing the middle track on either platform.
Also, along Chrystie St. in Manhattan, somewhere between Grand and Delancey, there's a short section of expressway underneath the subway tunnel. It was built in the 60s when the Chrystie St. subway was built in anticipation of the construction of a Lower Manhattan Expressway from the Manhattan and Willaimsburg bridges to the Holland tunnel.
From every account of this that I've heard, no one has ever offered conclusive proof. I'm convinced this is just urban legend.
-Hank
I remember seeing photos (of the freeway underpass under the subway on Chrystie St.) in the newspapers during the construction in the 1960s. I guess going through old NY Ti mes archives (or maybe other newspapers) should turn up the proof.
The Concourse Line is totally in a tunnel, but it is very unusual because at at least four stations - 167th, 170th, 174th/175th, and Tremont Ave. - the east-west streets pass under the subway and Concourse roadway. The station fare control areas can be accessed from below, as well as in the conventional way from above. 174th/175th is probably the most unusual because the cross streets are far below the Concourse. There, you can leave the subway into a mezzanine and then go down or up, depending on your destination. This is also adjacent to the Cross Bronx Expressway, which passes below the subway tunnel. At 167th, 170th, and Tremont the crosstown buses stop in the underpass and permit direct access "up" into the subway station.
The reason for all of this - the Grand Concourse is built atop a natural high ridge, and the perpendicular cross streets go up and down.
Just a bit of correction - The x-town buses on 167th Street (Bx-35) , and 170th Street (Bx-11) no longer stop in the Concourse underpass, nor do they go through the tunnel. They now take the side (service road) and stop at the Concoure. At Tremont Ave there is no access to the station from the underpass and the x-town bus (Bx-36) has always operated above the underpass, with stops on both sides of the Concourse. Also, I believe the underpass access to the 167th St & 170th St stations are now closed. At 174-175th Sts. used to have an entrance from 175th Street (under the Councourse) but it's now closed. At KB Road westbound Bx-9 buses used to stop in the underpass, but that's a thing of the past. I believe the underpass access to KB Road station is still open.
Re.167th Street and 170th Street stations - yes there are closed entrances there. You can see where they've been tiled over. I remember that 170th Street had quite a staircase leading up to the north end exit. It's gone now...
I catch the BX9 at street level on the NE corner KBRd & GC. What a damned crowded bus it is!
Wayne
Way back in the old days I attended classes at Taft High School and used to take the Bx 35 167 Street Crosstown bus and get of in the tunnel underneath the Concourse. Although the tunnel had two lanes there were four lanes at the bus stop with the bus having exclusive use of the inner lanes. I'm not sure but I believe there was access to the subway by going upstairs. I also used to ride the Bx 36 180 Street Crosstown but that was a big dissapointment as it used the service road to cross the Concourse.
Redbird
Way back in the old days I attended classes at Taft High School and used to take the Bx 35 167 Street
Crosstown bus and get of in the tunnel underneath the Concourse. Although the tunnel had two lanes there were
four lanes at the bus stop with the bus having exclusive use of the inner lanes. I'm not sure but I believe there
was access to the subway by going upstairs.
Yes, you're correct. To access the subway from the bus stop you had to walk upstairs. All of these (Grand Concourse) underpasses were somewhat unique. At 161 street on the north side there is an entrance to the subway, but the x-town bus (BX-6) never did stop in the tunnel.
At 167th Street - there was the center lanes for the bus stop. Now cars just drive through the former bus stop.
At 170th Street (BX11) the road widened at the bus stop allowing traffic to pass a stopped bus on the left side.
At Tremont Ave there is no subway access from the tunnel nor are there any pedestrian walkways. The x-town bus (BX-36) stopped on both sides of the Concourse at streel level.
Burnside Ave (BX-40,42) No subway stop here and no pedestrian walkway. Buese stop at Concourse at street level.
Fordham Road - The Concourses' main (center) road actually pass underneath Fordham Road. There is no subway access in the tunnel and no pedestrian walkways. The Concourse buses (BX-1,2, BXM4A,B) stop at street level.
Kingsbridge Road - Tunnel has subway access from the north side only. BX9,26,28 buses stop at street level.
Bedford Park Blvd - Tunnel has subway access on the north side only. The BX26 buses has always stopped at the street level.
The "bus lanes" at 167th St, under the Concourse, with their "bus platforms" were originally designed for trolley cars. The trolley tracks used the "bus lanes"
There were not only stairways up to the subway from the bus/trolley platforms, but also from the sidewalks.
I always knew that the Grand Concourse line was in a tunnel, but I meant that it crosses over streets IN that tunnel, and not as an el.
Sorry, for any confusion. I've never been on the Concourse line, which is one of my projects when I'm in town next weekend.
The Concourse line is a three-track line with a reversible express track used by D trains during rush hours in the peak direction. The express run itself isn't much of a thrill these days, as the R-68s assigned to the D plod along at around 25 mph. It's got to be one of the slowest express runs of any line, IMHO.
Thank you to all who responded to my post and were kind enough to correct some errors. It's been 25 years since I travelled to the Concourse area on a regular basis, when I was on the faculty at Morris HS'a annex (Morris Ave. & 170th). I guess things have changed a bit since then. I took the D train to 170th and often would exit in the tunnel and walk east. The buses stopped in the tunnel in those days. An interesting footnote is that the 170th Street Crosstown (BX-11) was always a bus route, but the 167th Street Crosstown (BX-35) was a trolley until about 1948, when the entire 3d Ave. Railway Bronx network changed over to buses. That's why the 167th St. underpass had the unsual bus platform in the middle - the trolleys ran down the middle of the roadway.
BTW, when my wife was a young girl she lived very close to the 174/175 Station and she clearly remembers going "up" to catch the D train at that station. And to Redbird - she's also a Taft graduate ('66).
I have seen the original planning documents for the Roosevelt Expwy (US 1) in the U. of Penn Library. The expressway does indeed pass beneath the Broad Street Subway. This is the reason the expressway dives to the degree that it does at this point. Of course, the subway was there at least twenty-five years before the expressway.
Incidentally, that expressway was to continue well beyond the current Hunting Park Avenue terminus where it becomes Roosevelt Blvd., and there were a number of proposals to put a subway line down the middle of it.
How, if possible, could I see this book?
This is correct. The Blvd passes under the subway. The bridge you see carries the subway.
An interesting story here - the sign facing northbound Blvd traffic, mounted on this bridge, says "Clearance 14 Ft". The lettering on this sign is some sort of moulded thick lettering which is mounted on the sign sheet. Several years ago, the "1" broke loose leaving the message "Clearance 4 Ft". A low bridge!
By the way, the Broad St subway crosses under other rail/highway junctions at Vine St (the Race-Vine station concourse was shortened slightly when the expressway was built here), Callowhill Cut, ex-Reading SEPTA main line at Lehigh Ave (the reason North Phila subway station is so deep and why it is 1/2 block north of Lehigh), and ex-Reading freight line north of Pike St.
I know this is off the subject, but I couldn't resist.
That reminds me of a Looney Tunes cartoon in which Sylvester smashes into a low bridge in Venice while chasing Tweety on a speedboat. There's a sign on the bridge which says, "Ducka you head. Lowla bridgeda".
Sorry, folks, I didn't make that up...
Just one of so many reasons why I'm hoping the order gets screwed up and Philadelphia ends up with the R-143's:):):):):)
Wouldn't that be a hoot!
It would have been even funnier if Philadelphia had wound up with the R-44s.
Not so fast! When the SOAC cars roamed the Broad St line in '74-'75, they were always followed closely by a regular Broad St train which was the old cars (between 36 and 46 years old). The party line was that the SOAC train, only two cars, couldn't handle the crowds. The REAL reason was that the SOAC train was very unreliable and on several occasions had to dump its load and limp back to Fern Rock. I recall a ride on which the following train was literally right behind the SOAC's, which had had trouble at nearly every station stop along the line that trip. I always thought it was interesting that the destination sign was stuck on the message "Service to Fern Rock". A motorman I knew kidded about this meaning that the train returned to the yard so much it was best just to leave this sign in place!
Anybody get to use the new vending machines yet?? Whats the experience like??
I used one to buy a card on Monday this week. The user interface is clean and overall the transaction was surprisingly fast. I used a credit card and I was impressed at how quickly the transaction was verified. I'm sure this will slow down once the system is used heavily.
The best thing about the experience for me is that it issues a receipt.
One note, the machines couldn't handle ATM card transactions yet - only cash and credit.
I tested the vending machine at 68th Street. I agree with Francis Sabilla: the machine is easy to use. I didn't find it all that fast, though, and worry about the machine's ability to handle all that much traffic.
you can bet that once these machines are used heavily and you know they will they'll never stand up to the constant use and abuse
you see the way people beat a phone for some change!!!
oh yeah I forgot I bought a funpass at the machine at 59th columbus circle I too didn't find the machines all that fast..
technology WOW...
you CAN buy the funpass at these machines....right? Also any idea on the priority on which stations get the machines first? My guess is that Grand Central or someplace will down on the list until all the bugs are worked out..
I seem to recall reading somewhere a long time ago that the highest NYC Station above sea level is actually one of the subway stops on the IND 8 Avenue Line;175 St,181 St or 190 St. It is actually higher than the Smith-9 Sts Station. Would anyone be able to confirm this?
Thanks Redbird
Actually Smith-9th is the highest. What you are likely confusing it with is the deepest subway station which is in Washington Heights. It's either 181 St. or 190th St on the IRT depending on who you listen to.
Steve: Thanks.Redbird
I also heard Roosevelt Island/63rd st tunnel was the deepest. Does anyone have depth in feet of these stations?(Washingtopn Hioehgts IRT and IND, 63rd st IND)
During an emergency some time back, I had the occasion to use an 'emergency' exit at Sutton Place/53rd St. The depth of the tunnel was marked at 93 feet. Since The 63rd Street tunnel spans the same river, 10 blocks north, it stands to reason that there would be no need to go significantly deeper for that tunnel. As for the 190th Street station on the 1/9 line, the number I remember is 180 feet below street level. I don't know how that translates to sea level in that area.
Another related point on that issue. The 63rd St. Tunnel was floated in and sunk into a trench in the riverbed instead of being driven through below the bottom. It might actually be shallower than some of the conventional tunnels.
Yes, the 63rd St. tunnel was built by the sunken tube method. What about the portion under Roosevelt Island itself? Was it bored through?
[I seem to recall reading somewhere a long time ago that the highest NYC Station above sea level is actually one of the subway stops on the IND 8 Avenue Line;175 St,181 St or 190 St. It is actually higher than the Smith-9 Sts Station.]
I have heard that the last few stops along the 2 line in the Bronx are the highest above sea level as they run along a high ridge. From a Metro North train in the valley below, the height of the 2 line is quite evident. Smith-9th is the highest station above surrounding terrain, but this terrain is itself at sea level (Gowanus Canal).
The lowest is on the 1/9 line. It is 181 ST.
Isn't the deepest station Roosevelt Island now?
According to the MTA WebSite the deepest station is 191 St.
But Roosevelt Island is probably the lowest below sea level (rather than street level).
The 181st or 190th St. stations on the A might have the highest entrance on the system, since both sit atop the ridge that runs along the Hudson. But the station itself is well below ground, so the tracks are likely higher above sea level at Smith-9th Sts.
The highest subway station is Smith-9th Street station of the Gand F trains in Brooklyn, 83 feet above street level, or probably the sealevel position of Gownus Canal, which it crosses. Iys sudden ride and fall back undergound is reminiscent of Boston's subway system.
That is the traditional answer. However, it's only accurate if we are talking about 'above street level'. Someone earlier raised the possibility that some of the lines in the Bronx, while only 30 feet or so above street level, the street is significantly above sea level so there is likely more than one correct answer depending on your interpretation.
After Geting off the Broad Channel Shuttle At 4:00 This morning One of the A trains in the Yard (#'s 54** w/ elec. Destination Sign) Had A Destination of "Long Island RR" On all the cars, and no letter was given???
Any Ideas??
Yes, that is a code on the R-44/46 electronic signs. It also has "Metro-North RR" as well. I believe these are for when service is out on portions of those railroads, and subway service is substituted. Often, in the yards, they toy with the signs and display not normally used listings.
The guy with the same name as me is absolutely right, and I myself enjoy changing the signs to say things that are relevant to what is happening to my train at a given time.
Switching over to LOCAL when my "F" is against the wall is but one of the hundreds of codes the book contains. Steve elaborated on this a few days ago. Unfortunately most crews don't have the book that I have( cannot reveal my source) and are lmited to the few that are printed on the cab wall.
I got the entire list too, and it's pretty fascinating. Also included is the T (West End, via Bway, 6th Av or Nassau), and both the M and J shuttle that will run on Nassau when the bridge closes could have R-46's displaying "Essex", "Broad", "Chambers", via Nassau, and the old D via Nassau to 6th Av is in there as well as B, D, N, Q, as well as the R to Chambers and Essex; the V to various 6th Av. destinations and the W to various Bway destinations, the X from 21st St to WTC, and the once proposed A to Brighton Beach or Coney Island! The ERA published this list in its Bulletins over the course of about 4 years ending last year,
Good for you! IMHO, every train should display correct information as to the route it is operating on. At least when the R-46s ran on the E, they did say "8th Ave. local", which is more than I can say for the R-1/9s, as fond of them as I am, and their "E/8th Ave. express" route signs. For the longest time, I felt the same way about the E train (incorrectly marked as an express when it ran local in Manhattan) as I did about the BMT standards (no end signs at all). I have since come to realize that the E and F are oddities of sorts, since they do run express, but not in Manhattan.
Are The buses numbered like the subways ( model or year ), or is it just random numbers
Don't know about NYCT, but in Baltimore the MTA numbers buses with the first two digits being the year of purchase. i.e. 9023 is a Flxible Metro bought in 1990. And so forth. The only exception is a 1987 order for 135 buses, so that series also includes 7000's.
At NYCT the fleet numbers on both subways cars and buses are just fleet numbers. NYCT cannot use the UMTA style fleet number system (like MTA in Baltimore) because each order is usually for several hundred buses/subway cars. NYCT pretty will use the next block of numbers that's large enough to number the equipment.
If you're referring to the R-XXX number (ex R-46)... This is the NYCT's contract number. Buses get the model number from their manufacturer. Ex.. Some of the most recent buses are:
Year Mfr. Model NYCT Fleet #
1999 Nova T80206 (RTS II-06) 4900-5249
1998 MCI 102-DL3 1860-2039
1998 New Flyer D-60 1070-1109
1996 BIA Orion V 631-680
The TA apparently tried this with the first order of Orions (101-172) Original numbers were 93001-93072.
-Hank
I think they changed back because they had trouble putting these 5-digit numbers in the maintenance computer and the defect card holds only 4 numbers to fill in the boxes (doesnt it? I never noticed)
Has anyone ever seen the Mainframe Computer for the Metro-Card system. I heard it is on Jay St., Is security tight around it??? Also, has anyone heard if metro card hacking is becoming a larger or smaller problem.
Security is in general tight around Mainframes.You pretty much have to know someone that has acess to the machine room well in order to get inside the room. Not surprising given that they are delicate things, and even a small one like my school's Vax 6640 is worth at least $500,000. My guess is that it's an IBM mainframe of some sort. Maybe an AS/400 (though those are minis). Certainly big bucks there.
I can tell you our mainframe (we call it the DARK ROOM where it is) is key code access only and only about three people have access to it. Even the console operator can not get into the room, has to call the operations manager. (IBM 9021 Model 982) All of our DASD, RAMAC and RVA units are in the room too (storage devices).
There seems to be a lot of talk about this new East Side Line and Links to Atlantic Avenue and JFK via LIRR tracks. I assume that this means a new East River tunnel to meet the foot of Atlantic Avenue at Redhook. The question is, what would be the stops along Atlantic before the new line reaches the LIRR tracks at Flatbush Ave?
Hoyt-Clinton?
Court St./Boreum Place?
Henry Street?
Incidentally there already is a tunnel under this streach of Atlantic that dates back to the 1840s and was used as a rail link between the Redhook docks and the LIRR.
An alternative notion:
What if the LIRR built a jog off of their Atlantic Avenue tracks to connect to JFK, and the city gave the LIRR a right of way to extend LIRR tracks along Atlantic. A new tunnel under the East River could connect this LIRR/JFK Line to a stop under or near World Trade before continuing up the West Side, (say via the route of the old New York Central, only underground) to Penn Station. This would not only link Penn Station, World Trade and the Atlantic Avenue Subway stop to JFK, but also provide one seat, JFK rail service to Long Island residence and provide an aditional Manhattan-LIRR connection to ease congestion on existing East River crossings. Theoretically this train could cross the Hudson as well, and link New Jersey to JFK via a one seat ride. The nice thing about this idea is that it utilizes lots of existing infastructure:
LIRR Tracks along Atlantic Ave.
Unused Tunnel under Atlantic Ave.
New York Central remnants along the West Side
Existing Penn tunnels and tracks to New Jersey
Just a thought.
What if, instead of the LIRR, this JFK link was an Extension of the #7 train, down the west side with stops at:
Jacob Javits
Penn Station
14th St. (to meet an extension of the L)
World Trade
Court St. (and Atlantic)
Atlantic Ave. (to meet many lines and LIRR)
JFK via LIRR tracks
It's amazing to me that any one of us can dream up any number of usefull lines but as long as any of us live New York (the port of entry to North America) will never have a train that goes to the airport.
Back in the early 19th century, trains ran down the center of Atlantic Ave. at ground level. The tunnel was built in 1844 by cut-and-cover as a necessity because steam locomotives of the day could not negotiate the grade at that location. It would probably have to be deeper than it is if it were to be used as a lead-in to an East River tunnel.
If they wanted to, they could tie the LIRR tracks to the dead end IND local tracks at WTC. Those tracks were supposed to be connected with the stub end tracks at Court St., where the museum is today, and the 2nd Ave. line would have branched off this connection. The only question would be where the river tunnel would go, probably between the Clark and Cranberry tunnels, or the Clark and Montague St. tunnels.
The problem with connecting with the stub end WTC tracks is the same problem the MTA would have connecting with the unused lower level of City Hall on the N/R -- there are already so many crossing tunnels there, it would be a major job to thread a line further east or south from those stations.
The City Hall line would have to make a sharp left to go down Ann St., beneath the 4/5 to get to the East River. Going straight would be blocked by the A/C tunnel at Fulton St., while the WTC station is sandwiched by the N/R on Church St. to the east/south and the 1/9 to the west.
Of course, all those lines also come together in downtown Brookyln, so trying to convert the LIRR track to subway use and snake them thruogh the already-jammed Atlantic Ave.-Flasbush Ave. interchange would prsent even more headaches.
It was originally planned to build the BMT Broadway Line as a double track line from City Hall south to Whitehall Street. Except for the lower level at City Hall this was not done. If they did decide to do it today and connect the tracks to some line in Brooklyn it would involve tunneling through solid granite probably neccesitating blasting.
Redbird
What should happen is to connect the WTC terminal tracks to the BMT line just south of there, thereby avoiding the slow BMT S-curve south of City Hall. I suppose the BMT local could terminate at City Hall just as easily as the IND does at WTC, or it (or the proposed 2nd Ave. line) could lead into the Nassau St. line north of City Hall somewhere, and the Broadway/Bklyn line could go up 6th Ave. In Brooklyn a connection could be made from the BMT tunnel to either Schermerhorn/Court Sts. (for the Fulton St. local) or to Atlantic Ave. (for the LIRR replacement line). Will any of this come about? No!
The Court St. stub itself is relatively easily accessible from the west in terms of an East River tunnel. The real problem, as has been mentioned, would be to try to snake an extension, or any new line, for that matter, through lower Manhattan. It appears that the BMT Broadway line blocks off the WTC terminal tracks where it veers over to Trinity Place; consequently, any extension from WTC would either have to nosedive or take a sharp turn and possibly duck beneath the 7th Ave. line. Since the BMT line was already in place when the IND line was built, one has to wonder what the planners really had in mind. On top of that, such a line would have to duck beneath the South Ferry loop and Battery Park in order to avoid the Joralemon and Montague tunnels. There was a proposed South Ferry station on the IND Second System line, but it probably would have been pretty deep.
Atlantic Ave. would be easy until you got to that tangled web at Flatbush Ave., as long as any East River tunnel was dug deep enough to pass beneath the old 1844 tunnel as well as the existing IRT and BMT lines.
Bottom line: ain't gonna happen.
I agree on the mess at Atlantic and Flatbush. You have the existing IRT on the same level as the LIRR, then you have a connecting passageway below that, and the BMT line to Prospect Park another level down. At some point you have to tunnel deep enough to get under all of this. West of there is the BMT 4th Av. Subway, and further west is the IND line, with its double deck section at Bergen St and the spaghetti junction north of there. This requires any tunnel to be far below the existing Atlantic Av Tunnel, making that useless for any new work. In fact, since that tunnel is brick, it may be undermined by new construction below, and collapse. :(
The other question would be whether there is enough room west of the portal for the approach to expand to four tracks for the junction, and drop deep enough at a reasonable grade to clear the mess described above. Finally, if there has to be a station below the existing stations, you probably need to excavate a minimum of six car lengths (510 feet) directly under all of those other tunnels and stations. Any way you look at it - this is a BIG project! ...And Second Av. (a simple cut & cover job) is still waiting as we approach the 50th anniversary of the demise of the 3rd Av. El.
And according to their maps, the old 1968 plan of converting the LIRR Locust Manor branch (forget its real name-Atlantic branch?) is alive once again. This is going to have some impact on the Babylon, Long Beach, Far Rockaway, and West Hempstead branches. Are they going to make the St.Albans branch four-tracks? There appears to be room for at least one track but not for two.
Wayne
The history of the Flatbush Ave. (Atlantic branch) is an interesting one.
Is anyone aware that before 1914 Brooklyn's Broadway Junction included not just the els of the BMT, but also had the LIRR Flatbush line running at grade with the Bay Ridge Branch line crossing it north/south at grade. It was a MESS of trackage and as motor traffic increased the decision was made jointly between the city and the LIRR to build a viaduct for the Bay Ridge (then, aka Manhattan Beach branch) while continuing grade for the Flatbush line. Atlantic Avenue over the tracks was elevated, with maintenance/side street traffic on either side of the LIRR East New York station. Most commuters don't even realize that another branch of the LIRR is running beneath them (barely used of course) as they ride to work on M-1s as they pass/stop at E. New York.
Doug
Please clarify where the Bay Ridge Tracks are at ENY. I am aware that the LIRR tunnel here is really an elevated road over the tracks, but one statement in your post suggests the Bay Ridge tracks go under the Atlantic Branch and another suggests they cross it on a viaduct. It's been over 20 years since I've been through there above ground.
At the location that the LIRR Atlantic Avenue Line crosses the Bay Ridge Line, the Atlantic Branch Line is just about street level (the tracks may be actually one to two feet below the street surface but for all practical purposes grade level). The Bay Ridge line goes under through a rather long underpass which reaches from about one short block south of Atlantic avenue to about one block north of Bushwick Avenue.
All of this is visible from the L-train platforms at Atlantic Avenue Station which goes over both and is about only 50 feet east of the Bay Ridge depression.
There is (or was) an abandoned but usable high level platform on the LIRR Bay Ridge Branch roughly adjacent to the Atlantic Av Station on the BMT Canarsie. I was there on a LIRR Fantrip about ten or so years ago. In the summer it is very hard to see because of all the green folliage.
Redbird
If anybody has an interest in models of New York City Subway cars, and plans on attending the Amherst Railway Society Train Show at the Eastern States Exposition Center in West Springfield, MA. this weekend (January 30 & 31) stop by and see us.
We have just received the samples of the BMT R38 Subway Cars, and they will be on display at the show.
We are usually located in the main building (better living) along the wall net to Overland Models.
Joel
MTS Imports, Inc.
Now, if they could only put them out in S gauge....
I know that there is an exit from the D train from the Bedford Park Station at 204th st. and the Concourse. Is it also an entrance there, or is the only entrance at Bedford Park Blvd. Thanks.
The entrace is at Bedford Park is full time the 204 is also an entrace but only for a limited time from 10:00 to 6:00 other times it is only an exit
The exit nr 204th-Concourse is also a part-time entrance. I don't remember the hours that the token booth is open.
The token booth at the 203rd street end of Bedfor Park blvd station is open until about 2 pm. unless they keep the token booth open later. After that is is an exit only. The token both clerk also closes the turnstiles at that time. They close the 203rd st entrance at about 10:30 p.m. at night. This i know cause i catch the downtown D train at Bedford Park Blvd at 10:35 pm and they are closing the gates that lead to 203rd st at that time.
To Get on the D train after 2pm you have to go to the Bedford Park Blvd end of the station to catch the trains.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
One thing that i forgot to add is that the 203rd st entrance of the Bedford Park Blvd station of the D train is the token booth and the entrance opens at 6am and the token booth closes at 2 or 2:30 pm in which the 203rs st entrance becomes an exit only to 10:30 pm when then they close all the gates at the entrance and on the platform.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
I've mentioned that I'll be visiting "the friendliest town in America"(:) next Saturday. I'll be going via the R7 and NJT but was thinking of taking PATH into the city instead of that long tunnel into Penn Station. How much does it cost and how do I do it, if I can, from Newark?
I used to use this for my commute every day when I briefly lived down near the World Trade Center.
Buy your ticket RT to Newark rather than Penn station. You'll save a few dollars. ($10.45 rather than $14, I think . . .)
Have a crisp 1 dollar bill in hand when you leave the train in Newark. Assuming the NEC is on the right track - the transfer is only cross platform with the fare gates accepting bills in the middle. It's only $1 for PATH.
If you're planning to visit downtown, this approach makes sense. IF you're only visiting midtown, you'll regret taking PATH. The branch from Journal Square to Midtown is PAINFULLY slow. Also, PATH only runs about once every 20 minutes on weekends. So the wait could add quite a bit of time to your trip.
Take the World Trade Center train. Then take the subway. At WTC you can get:1/9(Cortlandt), 2/3/A/C/E Park Place/Chambers/World Trade Center; N/R Cortlandt Street. If you exit and go around Ciy Hall park there is the 4/5/6 At Brooklyn Bridge/City Hall.
Subway is $1.50 per person each way. I suggest a fun pass at $4 bought outside the system.18 minurte wait between uses
Hi everyone. I want to create a subway portfolio and give pictures to David P. I would like to know if there was a person who is a train driver of a subway line because I would love to take pictures.That is something that I always wanted to do. Thank you for your time.
Christopher Rivera
There are several Conductors and Motormen here, I am a Conductor. Feel free to E-mail me. I know who some of the others are, but they'll have to 'fess up on their own.
Saw the R-110B today on the downtown C Line waiting at 168th street Washington Heights.
People were oooing and ahhing at the "new" train.
-Michael B.
How long have they been running after the overhaul?
And didn't any of them remember riding these 9 "new cars" sometime before?
Maybe the same thing will happen in 20 years when they overhaul and bring back the M-3's after the M-4's fall apart on the stretch between 15th and 30th:)
That poor beast of a machine has seen better days....
does anybody know if they are doing any work on the express tracks on the b line in bklyn its been running local in the am weekdays and it adds time to my trip from 36st to w4thst i usually board the b at 36st at 610am and for the last week it has been making local stops including dekalb ave which it never did before...thanks
IS THERE PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION OF ANY KIND IN PUTNAM COUNTY?
Rail service is provided by Metro-North(212-532-4900 or 800-638-7646).
Local bus service is provided by Putnam Area Rapid Transit (PART) 914-878-3480.
Today at 6:00pm BCAT( Brooklyn Community Access TV) Aired "Transit Transit" It is either a monthly or weekly show about the NYCTA with ALOT of in station and behind the scenes shots. It also talks alot about service being done to lines now. You could try to call BCAT to find out how and when to catch it again.
If anyone else has seen the show before, How often does it run?
The show airs weekly on Broadcast Channel 31 (WNYC) on Saturday at 3:30 PM but is only updated once a month. (That is: The January episode is shown each week in January, the February episode is shown each week in February - you get the idea).
I have been watching (and Taping) these shows since 1997 and generally they are pretty good.
I goofed. It is on Broadcast Channel (UHF) 25 WNYE. It used to be on 31 until Bloomberg bought it.
It is, however, on Saturdays at 3:30 PM as I had mentioned in the other posting
"Transit, Transit" is a shameless propaganda tool the Transit Authority funds at the rate of between $3-5 million/year, money that could be better spent returning conductors to subway lines converted to OPTO.
The last time I checked, that "shameless propaganda tool" is called advertising, a/k/a publicity, a/k/a PROMOTING RIDERSHIP! People complain that transit doesn't promote itself enough to encourage additional ridership, but then when a transit agency does engage in publicity, someone squawks that the money is being wasted.
"...between $3-5 million/year"
Oh, yeah, THAT princely sum is enough to restore the conductors replaced by OPTO. Right!
Here, here. Got to advertize and publicize. Transit use is like and alternative ifestyle in our auto-oriented society. Someone needs to fight the culture war on its behalf, and convince young people that riding the subway makes them special, not a loser. It is clear that a prior generation -- those now holding political office -- absorbed the opposite message. So I always tell kids about that show and this site. In fact a girl who babysits our kids is doing a school project on the subway right now.
How much money is the auto industry spending to convince you that your self-esteem depends on the car you drive? I say that my vehicle cost $2 million and I expect it last 40 years.
I was riding on PATH,January 27, and noticed a dead car on a WTC-NWK LCL. The car was closed to passengers and the lights were out.This does not seem to be an uncommon experience on PATH. I get to ride the subways about twice a month and cover a lot of territory when I do and I can't really say I seen any dead cars on the TA in quite a while. Has anyone seen dead cars on the TA in recent times?
Redbird
At NYC Transit, the dead car, would be called an "isolated car". This would be done for any number of reasons, a dirty car inroute(Body fluids, Major spill of some type). In my litttle over a year as a conductor I have never had to isolate a car. I assume it must be a rare occurence.
Just approximately 2 weeks ago.I was back in the stomping grounds of the n.y.c. subways.My friends & I boarded a downtown 6 train at Bleeker street.(Hate those redbirds).Anyway the front car doors did not open.I don't know if there was a spill or what,but we could not ride in the first car
At PATH,the term used is "CTP" (Closed to Passengers). In addition to the sanitary reasons that Michael cited, there might be mechanical defects such as missing windows or door failure that would prevent safe use of the car.
Just curious -- has anyone else had trouble in getting into the Penny Bridge website?
Besides SubTalk, it was my other favorite rail/transit website. There was plenty of interesting info on all the small Waterfront Railways including NYCTA's South Brooklyn Railway.
I hope it hasn't bitten the dust like so many other good sites.
Doug
When did you last have trouble? I was at the site about a week ago and it was fine. I'll agree with you, losing that site would be no fun.
Peter -- I was trying to check it out earlier tonight. I got an error message.
I also get a queasy feeling of an immient demise for any site that has not been updated in nearly a year.....hope my fears are wrong.
Doug
I tried it late Thursday evening, and got in just fine. So there's no immediate worry. But you are right about the lack of recent updating. What that means for the site, I just don't know.
I just visited the site, it was slow loading up but otherwise o.k.
I have the following issues of Joe L. Diaz' very good early 70s railfan magazine "The Street Railway Review" for sale:
Vol. 1 #4 -- P&LE (Pittsburgh) Brill trolley on cover.
Vol. 1 #6 -- cover: IRT shot 9th Avenue el northbound at Liberty Street.
Vol. 1 #8 -- cover: CTA #4271-72 southbound headed toward the loop.
Vol. 2 #2 (#14) cover: Cleveland Railway Peter Witt # 4008 on the Brookpark loop.
Vol. 2 #3 (#15) cover: Steinway Lines #1680 on Northern Blvd. in 1937
Vol. 2 #4 (#16) cover: Sacramento City Lines trolleys at "K" and 8th Streets.
Vol. 2 #5 (#17) cover: Chicago & West Town Railways trolley with B&O railroad steam engine in b.g.
Alot of the articles and photos have a distinctly mid-west bias, but the magazine was professionaly produced with excellent picture quality and nice traction book & model reviews.
Serious inquiries please contact Doug at Shado183@juno.com
How many red trains currently operate on the 4 train?
I assume you mean Redbirds?
I don't know how familiar you are with the "railfan lingo", but railfans tend to call 'em redbirds.
I'm not the best person to ask, but if you look in the Subway FAQ's, there is a section that has all the rush hour car allotments.
For the #4, you would want R-26/27/28, not the WF(World's Fair)33/36's,which are on the #7.
You'd usually find them on any IRT line except(AFAIK) the #1/7/9/GCS and I think the #6.
As of 1995, the line had 70 R-33's, I do believe the last of the Redbirds before the WFcars and the R-62's, the first stainless steel IRT cars.
Approx 7-10 car trains are assigned, 6 or R-33's and 10 R-36's.
Redbird
My observations have revealed that only 9200 series cars (and the stray six 9300s) of the R33 fleet are on the #4. The lowest numbered cars of the 9200s are on the #2 line (including the two 9200 series that are mismatched [9225 and 9112]). So I would guess that there are at least eighty 9200-series (and 9300-series) are on the #4.
I haven't seen any R36s on the #4; those that are not assigned to the #7 are found on the #6. This includes all of the R36 Mainline (with the three square dropdown windows) and some of the R36WF - units from #9480 up to #9521. We saw many of these R36 on the #6 yesterday.
Wayne
Wayne: Your probably right about the actual number of R-33's assigned to the #4. I was going by service requirements not total assigned cars. I think that one train of R-36's is assigned to #4 service as there have been persistant reports of this for the past year but I have been unable to verify this. The #6 as you say has both R-36ML and their cousins from the #7, usually you can ride both in the same train. Since the R-36ML's are such a small fleet its a bit of a treat.
Every now and then a stray R-33 train will also turn up on the number #6.
The #5 is one of three lines that I can think of that has mixed consits. You will see R-26,28 and 29's in the same train. The R-33 and R-36's tend to stay with their own.The #7 has R-33 and R-36's in the same train and the C has mixed GE rebuilt R-32 and R-38's. Opps
almost forgot the mixing of R-40M and R-42 on the Eastern Section of the BMT.
Regards,Redbird
The C also has mixed consists with R38 and MKCO-rebuilt (non-GE) R32. Here's a bunch from the Jan 19 trip: 4044-45, 3974-75, 3994-95, all R38s, and 3434-35, which is R32 MKCO with the stainless steel inside the door frames.
The ones with the enamel are the higher numbered cars; 3800 and 3900.
I found this to be so far without exception. However, I did not ride any Odd Couples where one was a low number and the other high (i.e. 3502/3905, 3520/3891, 3890/3383, 3862/3521, 3918/3601 etc.) If I ever do get one of these I will make note of the door frames in each.
I DID see one R33 on the 6 Thursday - they're from the Wakefield yard lot. If I ever do spot the R36 on the 4 I will put asterisks next to it.
Yes, the R36WF and R36ML do run in the same consist up on the Pelham line. We were on two such mixed bags. Not too tough to spot the difference with the windows. Interiors are identical though.
This is such fun...
Wayne
I had a major, unrecoverable system crash and lost my data. Does anyone have the ding-dong door closing sound in WAV format? Thanks. I will back up the sound so I wont lose it again.
Try ftp://nycsubway.org/pub/subway/sounds
I added the door chime WAV file as my sound for closing a program. I have run WinNT Workstation 4.0 and when I shut down I usually chose "Close all Programs and login as another user" - It's quite interesting to hear the chimes sounding continuously as each program closes. It sounds like a jammed pack Jamaica bound F train attempting to close it's doors at 5th Ave-53rd St at the height of the PM rush hour.
Wayne
I'm using it for "minimize" and "exit windows"; also for "question".
It is quite authentic. I wonder what was used to record it, as I would like to sample some wheel noise in the future.
Wayne
How about some good old bull-and-pinion gear moans and groans? I'd love to be able to rig something like that up in my Jeep. Come to think of it, I've had snow tires which came remarkably close to duplicating the R-1/9 sounds. Unfortunately, my Michelin X-ones are very quiet tires, so the ride is more reminiscent of an R-10 in terms of drive gear noise. (With my 8AVEXP license plates, I had to put in a plug for the R-10s.)
Has anyone tried the new vending machines?
A friend at work charged a 30 day unlimited to his AMEX got a choice of a free candy bar (in gold AMEX wrapper) or a water bottle.
He found the process easy and quick but would not go into detail...
I tried the vending machine at 59th Columbus Circle not bad.Bought a $4 day pass and ended up selling to a friend. Touch screen to start transaction and given choice to what type of metrocard to purchase. Not really any faster than going to a token booth. Plenty of TA Brass around really a smart way to spend money huh. I guess Station Agents around to assist but plenty of Supervision around just for a formality I suppose.. In my humble opinion its really a way for TA to eliminate jobs .... plain and simple
Was just wondering if anyone has heard anything more about what service changes will be made when the 63rd Street tunnel comes into service?
Redbirds can be found on the following IRT Lines.
#2 all R-33ML
#4 about 7 trains R-33ML and R-36 (1 trains of MLorWF)
#5 all Redbirds;R-26,28,29,33ML
#6 about 160, R-29,33(a few) and R-36ML and WF
#7 all Redbirds R-33WF and R-36 WF
Notes ML=Mainline,standard windows, WF=World's Fair,picture windows.
#1,3,9,S all R-62A
#4 remainder is R-62
#6 remainder is R-62A
I think the R-110A is running on the #5 but I'm not sure.
Redbird
There have been some recent postings on a multi-billion transit plan including the Second Ave. subway and a tunnel from lower Manhattan to Brooklyb. Maybe this will all not come to pass. But if planning for it will be started, could the tunnel planned for lower Manhattan to Brooklyn possibly be used, with the right connections on both the Brooklyn and Manhattan sides, as a replacement for the Manhattan Bridge tracks used (or that were used), by the B, D, N and Q? Maybe this would be the time to "piggy back" a Bridge alternative onto this proposed new tunnel?
Politicans and planning committees always like announcing brand new projects more than replacement projects, so a Manhattan Bridge replacement tunnel isn't as exciting as drawing up an entirely new Second Ave. system like the RTA just did.
If I ever get my two cents in on this project, I'll point out that one of its two greatest flaws is that it leaves Brooklyn dependent on the Manhattan and Williamsburg bridges despite a new tunnel. If yelled at, I'm sure the RPA would alter its plans, though I'm not sure the plans will make a difference.
The other flaw is the idea that more capacity is required in the system as a whole, given the expected growth of the city's economy. I have argued that the system has plenty of capacity, given that it is already developed, there is room for more rush hour trains on many lines, peak hour's share of ridership is falling, and new signals will allow more trains per line. The problem is the distribution of capacity -- not enough on the East Side, too much on the West, not enough crosstown links -- and the possible loss of capacity due to the bridges. That, and the need for faster travel, are the real needs, not more tracks overall.
Nonethess, at least its a comprehensive plan -- for those who do not live on Staten Island.
There have been plans for a Second Avenue subway since 1930,
the city never had enough money to complete it. In fact our city was so poor that in 1970's it decided to dig only a cheap two track line.
Now that our city has a budget surplus, I suggest that the MTA dig
a two-level tunnel with three tracks each. The upper level having local stops every six blocks, similar to the pre-1940 el., amd the lower level having high speed express trains. In the Bronx, it should have three branches, elevated: one on Third Avenue toward Williamsbridge, another on Boston Road toward Co-op City, And finally
one along the Amtrak ROW and Lafayette Ave. toward Hunts Point, Clason's Point and Throgs Neck.
South of its Chatham Square terminal, it can connect with the 4 and 5
lines toward Bowling Green and South Ferry. In some areas it can connect to the 63 street line and 6 avenue line. Finally in Lower East
Side, south of 23 street, one branch can go on Allen Street and another on the Bowery and connect again at Chatham Square, similer to the old el. lines that went this way in Lower East side. What are Your plans for the new subway? And let us not forget the long-delayed plans to create a Nostrand and Utica avenue lines in Brooklyn.
I don't think the downtown plan would work, because the MTA does not want to build any extended-length project to IRT gauge (The Times Square-Javits Center extension of the No. 7 being the only exception I can think of). Any downtown connection would have to be to the Nassau St. loop on the M/J/Z, while any line to the north would either have to adapt Amtrak ROW to BMT/IND use or convert an IRT Bronx line (probably Pelham Bay Park) to the 10-foot !ND/BMT cars.
According to RPA plans, they're not going to touch any of the existing Bronx lines. The Co-Op City line looks like a full run up Boston Road with stops at 149th, 161st, 169th, [they ought to put one in for Charlotte Gardens although the kink in the road there might prevent this] West Farms Square (transfer to #2 and #5 lines), then onto East Tremont for a few blocks, then onto the Amtrak ROW with stops at Parkchester (Unionport Road), Bronx Hospital Center (Eastchester Rd), then back underground with three Co-Op City stops - South, Center and North.
Wayne
What is so special about Co-Op city that it should have three stops? I've never been to that neighborhood. What are its demographics?
Co-op City is a very large housing developement on the site of what was "Freedomland,USA." I believe there are about 20 to 30 buildings anywhere from 15 to 30 stories tall spread out over a lot of territory. Sections 1 to 4 are grouped together on the west side of the Hutchinson River Parkway while Section 5 forms a satelitte unit to the east. This may be why 3 stations are proposed.
Redbird
Could someone tell me more about the "long delayed plans to create Nostrand and Utica Avenue lines in Brooklyn?" Would these lines somehow be connected to the Second Avenue subway. Additionally, I got my hands on planned station stops for the Brooklyn, Bronx and Queens branches of the proposed 2nd Avenue Subway. Along which streets or routes would the subway run in the Bronx, Brooklyn and Queens? I am especially interested in the Brooklyn route(s). Is any of the non-Manhattan branches new construction or does it use existing construction. I understand that a portion of it will run up Brooklyn's Atlantic Avenue. What would happen to the LIRR (if anything)? Help! J. Presley (brothanubi@aol.com)
The details of these long delayed subways are well covered in the Building the New York Subway Section of the home page for this site. In a nutshell, the plans for these lines date back to the Contract 2 extension of the original IRT subway which were planned about 1910. The original IND full plan in 1922 included them as well as the IND expansion plans known as the "IND Second System" released in 1929.
The RPA plan to which you refer is detailed in their web site which is. http://maestro.com/~rpa/metrorep.html. The RPA plan includes some of the 1929 plan for the northern section but deviates signficantly in the parts south of 42 Street in Manhattan. A pivotal Bronx section is their new Third Avenue subway. Their plan also shares the existing Amtrak Right of Way, much like the Boston Orange Line, I suppose.
The only new Queens construction appears to be super-express bypasses at 74-Roosevelt and Continental Avenue on the Queens Boulevard (E,F,R-Lines) and a connection at Jamaica Center with the Atlantic Branch (Laurelton Section) tracks.
The only new Brooklyn construction would be a new route from a New East River turnnel to the existing LIRR terminal at Atlantic Avenue and Flatbush, which might be incredibly difficult to build because of the already existing three levels of tracks in the vicinitiy.
The most recent plans for Nostrand and Utica Avenues were put forward by the MTA in the late 1960s. The Nostrand line would have been a straight extension of the Nostrand Avenue subway (#2 train) out to about Avenue W. The Utica Avenue line would have run from Eastern Parkway to Avenue U/Kings Plaza. I assume it would have been an extension of the express tracks of the Eastern Parkway line, in which case it might have been served by the 4 train.
Also proposed for Utica Avenue was a leg of the IND Second System (1929): full details are elsewhere on this site, but, in brief, the route would have come from new river tunnels between the Lower East Side and Williamsburg, via Bushwick Avenue to Stuyvesant Avenue, where it would have turned south (passing over the Fulton Street line in the recently discussed shell visible from the platforms there) and continued via Utica to around Avenue S; it would have turned west, met an elevated extension of the IRT at Nostrand, and then continued on Nostrand out to Sheepshead Bay.
The RPA plan hasn't mentioned reviving this route, although it could certainly be plugged in to the Atlantic Avenue line if that's converted to transit use.
Since by the RPA's own estimate, the Metrolink project will cost about $12 Billion (which really means $20 Billion). I don't think anyone has to worry about who is going to be served or not served by lines that will never be built. The RPA also states that "The price is affordable in the context of our annual gross regional product, now approaching 800 billion dollars", but does not go into any detail beyond that regarding how the project would be funded.
From the RPA- http://maestro.com/~rpa/metrorep.html
Tunneling (two-track) $5.775 Billion
Tunneling (four-track) 1.440 B
New Surface Tracks 75 Million
Upgrade Atlantic Branch 260 M
Stations 2.475 Billion
Broadway Line Improvements 100 M
Queens Boulevard Line Improvements 450 M
New Connection to Airtrain 100 M
Rolling Stock 1.235 B
Yard capacity 950 M
TOTAL = $12.860 BILLION
Since by the RPA's own estimate, the Metrolink project will cost about $12 Billion (which really means $20 Billion). I don't think anyone has to worry about who is going to be served or not served by lines that will never be built. The RPA also states that "The price is affordable in the context of our annual gross regional product, now approaching 800 billion dollars", but does not go into any detail beyond that regarding how the project would be funded.
From the RPA- http://maestro.com/~rpa/metrorep.html
Tunneling (two-track) $5.775 Billion
Tunneling (four-track) 1.440 B
New Surface Tracks 75 Million
Upgrade Atlantic Branch 260 M
Stations 2.475 Billion
Broadway Line Improvements 100 M
Queens Boulevard Line Improvements 450 M
New Connection to Airtrain 100 M
Rolling Stock 1.235 B
Yard capacity 950 M
TOTAL = $12.860 BILLION
A few years back, while I was at NJT, I had the opportunity to attend a class on Cab Signalling. It was only a brief one on how to test and inspect the units at their initial terminal. I learned a bit about how the system works and I have some thoughts about it and how we could apply them here at our favorite transit system. Which is after all just another railroad.
One of the problems the subway faces today is that the system has signals which are too closely spaced to keep trains a proper distance apart. Another is that using signals that use a time to distance formula to control the speed of a train through an area of a tight curve or a steep downgrade can often lead to undesired emergency stops.
In an effort to increase safety, the Authority reduced the available power to our Motormen so as to reduce speed. Sounds as if they didn't trust the Motormen to obey the speed limits. But that's another issue.
The effect was to make an already lethargic railroad (because of it's tight curves and closely spaced stations)
positively SLOW. Every where else trains don't loose speed going up hills, Engineers simply apply more power, to maintain speed. Just like driving in your car.
Now since the instalation of spedometers a few years ago, the technology is already in place to limit maximum speed to say 45MPH. which seems to be what the TA considers the safe M.A.S.
I hope this doesnen't sound to crazy because I'm not that knowledgeable on this subject. But with the new CBTC signaling proposed for the "L" line will that eliminate trackside signals or is it a combination of the two? Also can you actually eliminate all trackside signals with a system as complex as NYCT? Thanks for any imput.
CBTC will eliminate the 'need' for the traditional signals so long as you only run trains equiped with CBTC. However, since non-revenue equipment will not have CBTC equipment, nor will other revenue cars that might be used, the CBTC must be integrated with the current signal system. One aside: Twelve (12) R-42s (as well as the R-143s)will also be equiped with the CBTC equipment. [R-142s will not have the equipment nor will they be convetable]
An interesting aspect of cab signalling in Boston has been that whereever it has been installed, it has completely supplanted the wayside signals.
From a motorman's point of view, would you rather coast and allow gravity and friction or light braking to reduce your speed approaching a slow zone or would you rather bomb up to an invisible block limit at 45 mph, and suddenly get an automatic maximum brake application slowing you to 25! If you overrode the automatic control you would still have to use maximum brake to slow in time to avoid getting big-holed. The key is not knowing where the speed limit changes, expecially following traffic, until it does.
I have read about systems that do not have this problem - they have a display in the cab showing upcoming speed changes, so the motorman can slow ahead of time.
For everything you ever wanted to know about CBTC, see:
http://www.tsd.org/communic.htm
At the locations where there are permanent speed restrictions, the motormen or engineers generally know where and when to slow down. From my experience as an engineer, I always did.
Erik, as an engineer, perhaps you can clerify the difference between the following signal meanings (in practical terms):
Approach - Slow /
/
Slow - Approach -
/
Restricting -
\
Thanks
In re-reading my previous posting, I think I was unclear as to what I meant (forgive to weak attempr at replicating the signals). What I'm interested in is, in practical terms, what is the difference between
"Approach-Slow", "Slow-Approach" and "Restricting"
I have the rule book definitions. Also, are the meanings the same for freight and passenger service?
Okay, Approach slow in practical usage is one leading to an interlocking. To bring a train to the next signal at a lower speed, however not requiring you to be prepared to stop. A big deal with freight as opposed to MU's.Say I'm coming from Harlold east. The Automatic signals west of Jamaica (just to back up the ASC when a train looses it cause theres so much volume there) Will descend from clear to approach medium and then approach slow. These are speed signals, most of the time but not neccesarily they don't mean theres a train infront of you.Then the first home signal will display either a slow clear(self explanitory) or slow approach which means be prepared to stop at the next signal. On automatics you won't see slow approach.
Resticting is what we like to call the F*** you signal, because anything that happens after you pass it is the sole responsibility of the engineer. Generally it's seen entering yards or secondary tracks, or in a situation whre the block operator is allowing you to enter an occupied block at an interlocking. In traiing we had to memorze word for word the definiton of "restricted speed"
"A speed not exceeding 15MPH at which a train can be stopped within half the range of vision, short of the next signal, another train or obstruction looking out for broken rail or crossing protection not functioning."
Unless otherwise provided( school car joke)
As for differences in rules for frieght as opposed to passenger, it's only in rule 409 and 410 territory that there are differences. When the cab signal indicator displays anything other than MAS (least restrictive) the train speed must be reduced to restricted speed. A 55 code or a 30 code still meant 15 MPH to freight. This is because freight train braking is so long and the signals were meant for passenger trains in order to maitain a safe distance the LIRR people weren't taking any chances. Can't say as I blame them. Their safety record is great considering all the "dark" territory single track main they've got.
There are five named speeds. Resricted, Slow, both 15, medium at 30MPH and Limited 45(only in Amtrak territory) and the maximum authorized speed, which is the speed lowest of the two between the equipment you are operating or the track you are on. Hence the names of many of the signals. Most mainline track was well over my frieght trains MAS of 45 MPH. The ore cars are only good for 30.
I miss the rail road, but it's good to be home.
12 M/K rebuilt R42's already have the CBTC equipment installed. They test the cars various times on the F Line (I believe the S/B express track between Seventh & Church Ave's). The cars have not seen passenger service for some time. The numbers are: 4612/13, 4694/95, 4758/59, 4762/63, 4806/07 and 4836/37.
Thanks for the info (I did get your E-mail, thank you).
I have made note of this in my R42 pages and R42 worksheet.
4612 adds yet another chapter to his history - he was raised from the dead back in 1971 after smashing his face into #3629 in a Manhattan collision. I saw him up at 207th Street while they were doing the rhinoplasty.
Wayne
I suggest you check out www.tsd.org to learn about CBTC on the Canarsie Line. On this project, the track circuit will be replaced with new ones while the interlocking signals and stops will remain.
As a driver in the Stockholm Underground, I can tel you that cab signalling works just fine! The Stockholm underground has been fitted with complete cab signalling since its inauguration 1950. The equipment was originally made by Westinghouse & Union Switch & Signal, but later modified and produced by Swedish signalling companies (Ericsson and SATT. The system, which is still in use today, uses a signalling current in the tracks (fixed block trackcircuits) to give a speed code to the cab equipment. If a train overspeeds, it is automatically braked with a service brake application. Under some circumstances, the system applies an emergency brake. The lines are wholly track-circuited, with the depot yards as an exception. Our wayside signalling is mainly used for route indication at points (switches), as well as regulating the progress of engineer´s trains. No speed signalling is given by the wayside signals, with an exception for "Stop-then proceed at caution", but this signal is also indicated by the cab equipment. There are no tripcocks etc whatsoever, all train control and signal enforcement is handled by the signalling electronics.
This system is now being replaced on Line 1 (where I work) by a Siemens-designed state-of-the-art moving-block ATP system. Even though the track is still divided in track circuits, the blocks can move, and the maximum permitted speed change continously (depending on the exact position of trains, points and whatever). The system also allows the Line Controllers to implement new speeds and other variables for every track circuit directly, from a computer in the control room. The system is supposed to support ATO operations sometime in the future. However, the installation of the new signalling system has met with terrible difficulties, and is now about 2½ years late, with massive cost overruns.
Well, that´s how we do things in Stockholm!
A few years back, while I was at NJT, I had the opportunity to attend a class on Cab Signalling. It was only a brief one on how to test and inspect the units at their initial terminal. I learned a bit about how the system works and I have some thoughts about it and how we could apply them here at our favorite transit system. Which is after all just another railroad.
One of the problems the subway faces today is that the system has signals which are too closely spaced to keep trains a proper distance apart. Another is that using signals that use a time to distance formula to control the speed of a train through an area of a tight curve or a steep downgrade can often lead to undesired emergency stops.
In an effort to increase safety, the Authority reduced the available power to our Motormen so as to reduce speed. Sounds as if they didn't trust the Motormen to obey the speed limits. But that's another issue.
The effect was to make an already lethargic railroad (because of it's tight curves and closely spaced stations)
positively SLOW. Every where else trains don't loose speed going up hills, Engineers simply apply more power, to maintain speed. Just like driving in your car.
Now since the instalation of spedometers a few years ago, the technology is already in place to limit maximum speed to say 45MPH. which seems to be what the TA considers the safe M.A.S.
Now in a similar arrangement to what the big railroads use I suggest a micrprossesor which would monitor speed be attached to the current spedometer mechanisms. Should train speed exceed the speed limit, this would in turn energize a sequence of solinoid valves which would isolate the motorman's brake valve and then charge the straight air pipe with regulated air to 80PSI (full service brake).
This would allow the TA to return to full power on all the rolling stock and end the days of going down the 60th St. river tube at 55 then coming up at 18MPH.
The foot pedal we used to use for the radio could even serve as the acknowledge switch. (when exceeding the speed limit the system allows the motorman a few seconds to reduce speed on his own, this requires him to acknowledge using the switch. Or else it is assumed the motorman is incapacitated.
The cost of this on the railroads was about $200,000 per vehicle. Yes not cheap, but probably cheaper than a wreck.
Expanding on this idea would be to have a simple antenna on the trucks to pick up a signal emmited by the signals on the track conveying a speed limit through a given area. Then with a simple reduction of the speed limit at various points you could remove the time signals. Even further would be to place signal emiters on all the signals along the track, having speed limits drop lower in decending order the closer one train got to the one infront until finally it would be forced to stop by the track mounted trip arm.
I'm not suggesting a complete cab signal system for the subway,(like Chicago) only a rudimentary system which would augment, not replace the existing one. It would be cheaper probably, and maybe even less difficult than the one the TA is proposing now?
We have a lot of bright people visiting this site, every one weigh in. Let's hear your thoughts.
Erik
There is nothing wrong with the block signal system for NYCT. the problem stems back to the Williamsburg Bridge accident of June, 1995. A study was done by Parsons Brinckerhoff to check the safe braking distances of the entire system. The cars of recent times have faster acceleration rate and high top speeds than the cars of yesteryear that the signal system was designed for. All new signal systems on NYCT like the Pelham and Sea Beach lines take the newer equipment into account. The top speed of trains has been slowed down to emulate the cars the signal system was design for. The laying out the block or track circuit lengths is based safe braking distance and desinged headway required.
NYCT today has a form of cab signaling for governing moves over certain crossovers. This is accomplished by wheel detectors and microprocessors and I'm sure you know about them as a Conductor. I agree that cab signaling with overspeed protection is an excellent way to go and the cost of the system is less than $50K for carborne set. I could get into the design however, I'll leave that for an E-Mail.
Hello again. I just wanted to know if in fact there is a crossover at Nassau street station both inside and outside the fare control. Dave said he was going to check on January 28, when they were going on the G line to redo some pictures. Thanks.
Jason
Just a word of reassurance, we did a three-and-a-half-hour shoot at every single station of the G line between Fulton and 21st-Van Alst on Thursday. We took 50 pictures. We also brought the transcripts from the Crosstown web page with us and made copious notes, so there will be a number of changes made to the station descriptions. I will be editing these station descriptions over the course of the next few days. Then they will be submitted to Peggy for her review, then I will scan some of the photos, probably three for each station. When all this is done it will be delivered to Dave for publication.
Yes, we did take a picture of the Nassau Avenue crossover and we plan to include it. Most of the photos came out quite well and will need a minimum of retouching. I'm probably going to send one (Broadway) out warts (and stalactites) and all.
Figure about a week to pull all of this together.
Wayne (and thanks to Peggy for her assistance and valuable input).
Latest figures for train operators (drivers) and Guards (Northern Line only) who are employed by London Underground as of January 1999
is 3,289 with a basic salary of £25,500 (Train Operators/Drivers) &(£17,500 Guards)
How does this compare with New York City Transit operations
Number of Motormen ?
Number of Conductors?
Basic salary ?
Also what is the training period to reach the position of Conductor, then Train Operator and Motorman??
As usual any replies gratefully received !!
Rob
London UK :^)
Where could i get plans or diagrams for subway cars
and Operator Manuals? Please e-mail me with any answer
thanks
This is a test.
Testing followup
This is MUCH faster than before. Thanks you!
Now that my cookies are gone (someone ate em) I'll test out my other handle. That is MUCH MUCH better, thank you!
Wayne
Yeah, this sucker is faster now..
Nickle bet this thread somehow or another turns into a discussion on either the Manhattan Bridge, 2nd ave line, or the R-46 brakes ;)
Just remember you statred it. (DAVE the new host runs great)
Could the 2nd ave. line be routed over the Manhattan bridge using R-46's if the brakes could hold them comming down the approach ramps.
There you have it.
Again dave thanks for Sub-Talk and keeping it on line.
This server is much faster this so much better. The R-46 might hold if they are new and improved brakes
Dave - much kudos on the faster box! :)
> Could the 2nd ave. line be routed over the Manhattan bridge using > R-46's if the brakes could hold them comming
> down the approach ramps.
Hmm, what's the highest point on the bridge? And how does it
compare with the Philadelphia El roadbed back around 1965?
Thanks Dave. This is working great. This is my opportunity to make a slight change in my Subtalk tag: Bill will now be known a Bill from Maspeth.
The new site is "subway" fast. I love the stuff on this site!!
Nice going and thanks to Dave P. Now if I could only learn how to type!
Chuck Greene
Dave: The new system is much faster. Thanks;Redbird
YES! MUCH FASTER!!
thanks
Thomas
Here, here. Before, it was about the same as riding on a D of R-68s in the Bronx on an express run. What express run?
Now, it's as if I were on an A train of R-10s thundering along CPW.
You da maaannnnn!!!
Super job, Dave! The new server works great
That's our Dave - always making the site the best.
Zoom!! (Thats' almost as fast as ride on the Middle Branch Bridge)
oops!! Goofed! Left last e out of name. Cookie had wrong me. I am bad.
Dave, however is the man!!
Wow subtalk at the speed of light - thanks David
Hi all,
Just to let everyone know.. the SubTalk portion of this site (and incidentally also the search engine) has been moved to a faster machine. It's a virtual host which means some older browsers are going to have trouble accessing it (like NS and IE prior to version 3 of each).
I will probably be moving it once more so what I would do is keep http://www.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi as your bookmark and let that page direct you to the proper server. In any event if all of a sudden it appears SubTalk is gone, check that URL for the location.
The new server has 3x the CPU power of the old one so it should process SubTalk requests much faster. Plus, it isn't handling any of the rest of the site traffic.
Enjoy,
-Dave
Dave,
Lookin' good!!
Wow! Now that was fast. This is great Dave. It reminds me of our new MSExchange server.
Congrats and thanks!
Wayne
Oh please. I like to think the site has been more reliable than the typical MS server. :-)
-Dave
Yes, Dave you're right - It's much more reliable. I should've explained that I talking about the server itself which is incredibly fast and not the software which can be quite tempremental.
Wayne
And so it has been. THANK YOU!!!
This site is *much, much* more reliable.
Dave, the speed increase is fantastic!!
Thanks for all your efforts; the results are worth it!
What type of Server did you get and it much of put you back a pretty penny? Thank you.
My wife hate it because now that means more time with Subtalk and less time with wifetalk.
With me, it should mean more time with her, and she should like it. Most of my internet time was waiting for the Subtalk boards or index to come up, especially earlier on, when it has to reload every time.
Dave -- congrats! This baby is waaaay faster!
Nice to be able to get 'on board' alot faster now.
cya, Doug
Thanks Dave it's looking good!
Terrific new server! And one more thing, Dave - looking at the new URL, I guess we all can tell which is your favorite line :-)
Dave,
I noticed that some new R-68 photos have been put up(thanks to you and Wayne Whitehorne).
Though you can only get to the new photos through "Captions Only" and not clicking on "R-68(21 images)".
Jack,
Make sure you don't have that page (r68.html) cached. I just brought it up from here at work and it seemed fine to me. Try ensuring you have a fresh reloaded copy.
-Dave
WOW!!!!!
Much improved! The difference is very much noticeable. Thank you!
Now I have another reason that the Brighton line is my favourite line!
--Mark
Without the J,M,Z line going out later on this year what is the plan for the 3 lines and the plan for the R-143 coming in 2000 why don't the MTA make changes so that the J,M,Z can be able to haver these new cars and so will the L line. Will this plan be able to happen?
First, service plans:
"M" terminates at Marcy Avenue
"J" terminates at Myrtle Avenue
"Z" terminates at Eastern Parkway.
"J"/"Z" skip-stop runs in both directions (go figure).
"M" service from the other end (Bay Parkway) is slightly reduced
(again, go figure - not enough equipment)
A shuttle will replace the "J" in Manhattan.
"A" express and "C" local service extended to weekends, approx. same hours as weekday (up to 10 PM) (they should make this permanent).
"L" service will be beefed up to meet increased demand.
Equipment plans:
112 R143s firm order. There is an option for another 100.
All are scheduled to become "L" trains; if they pick up the option, you may see some of them on the "M" as well.
"L" SlantR40 will go to Coney Island to become "Q"s and "N"s.
Probably the R40M will be transferred out as well (only 99 units with one coupled to an R42-will be 100 once repair to #4461's nose is completed; they are working on it). These could either go to Pitkin to beef up the "C" or to Coney Island. Some of the R32s on the "C" may wind up on the "A" (I've already seen some of this).
Wayne
Hate to tell you guys, but I heard from one of the M supervisors: on the ENY side of the J & M: 4 cars on the M and 6 cars on the J/Z, even during the rush!!!!!!!!
Is anyone aware of any books or other reference materials which document the construction of the North and South Shore Lines (SIRT) on Staten Island, or is a history of those lines? I haven't had much luck trying to track anything like that down, and would appreciate any direction which might be helpful...
Thanks in advance,
Freddie
There is an excellent book called"Staten Island Rapid Transit" piblished by Silver Leaf Rapid Transit in 1965.Unfortunatlely it is now out of print but I'm sure the Staten Island Historical Society would have one in their library that you could look at.
Redbird
I can tell you that they either 'never possessed it, it was stolen, or we can't find it at this time'
-Hank