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I read some time ago that the Girard trolley route was to be turned into an LRT route.
Has any progress been made? Shopping for cars? Construction for a ROW on Girard?
Just curious.
I guess SEPTA has been busy with the new MFL cars and the strike.
Here in Toronto the TTC is putting down half a mile of new track to connect the harbourfront line to the Exhibition grounds.
Construction started on the project this week and they hope to be finished by August 2000. Not exactly a fast pace, but I'm not complaining.
At least the TTC is expanding its streetcar service.
No work has been done yet thought I've seen ads on the el for anyone who would be able to help design and build ADA compliant LRV's.
Right now, SEPTA's concern is getting back customers. Lines can be built with more ease than a clientele.
"Right now, SEPTA's concern is getting back customers. Lines can be built with more ease than a clientele."
Very true. But wouldn't increased trolley service help to bring back the lost riders?
It may. But let's look at this.
First of all, it would be replacing the old 15 trolley which is great for railfans, but not so good, as SEPTA has to put up money for new cars, DEFINATELY TRACK IMPROVEMENT and possibly accomodating stops in W Philly to deal with a LR train.
Second, people have been used to the 15 bus for a while. Whenever I talk to my freind Ray who lives in W Philly about this, he'd say something like "Trolleys are always getting stuck in traffic by somebody who's double-parked". He may not be the best gauge of opinion in W Philly, but that's true.
Finally,(here I go into my right-wing persona) SEPTA may figure that riders from the city(read:less affluent areas) will ride whatever SEPTA puts in front of them because they have no way to get around.
I would love to see the line redone, but SEPTA has always seemed like it was run and operated by serpents to me and just aren't interested in projects like these. They probably would have started long ago if they really cared and now that we've had a strike, though not wrong, SEPTA's really going to pour on the butt-kiss.
A shiny new system may just do the trick, but if you really want your riders back, get cracking and fast. SEPTA permanantly lost 8 riders a day during the strike. While the system is running again, sitting on your hands wont get riders back.
OK, I'm done.
I have only been to Philly once (last February) so I don't know much about the system. If putting trolleys back on Girard is not the best use of capital dollars, what is?
I have a few complaints (possibly misguided considering my limited time in Philly), that soured me on SEPTA a little. All would have cheap solutions compared to buying new trolleys.
1) The level of service on the MFL and BSS. I don't know if I just had bad luck, but I was on the system on a weekday morning rush, a weekend midday and a weekend night and the service was terrible everytime. Coming back from a 76ers game at night(from Pattison BSS to 34 st. MFL took over an hour!) No exageration. My friend and I were waiting with many other people for the MF train at city hall for 25 minutes. There was no announcement made about delays. The other trips were not as bad, but I seemed to be surprised at how long the wait was everytime. Is my experience rare and has SEPTA considered increasing the headways for its heavy rail?
2) Improper signage about how to pay for subway and non-user friendly rules. After the 76ers game there was a bit of a line up at Pattison as was to be expected. They had a token maching but it was out of order. They had a guy there telling people it was out of order which I found extremely helpful. They had too booths open. The first one we lined up at had all the token prices. We got to the front of the line and asked to buy two tokens for $3. The attendant rolled his eyes and said he didn't sell tokens and that we'd have to go to the other booth. I asked him if I could just put the $3 in the box and he said no. So we had to line up at the other booth, buy the tokens and then put the tokens in the box. It didn't make much sense and was very aggravating.
3) No single map of the system. This is a must for tourists and occasional riders. If SEPTA wants to kiss the publics butt as Jack says, then they should make a system map available for free.
I must say that as a railfan I loved the elevated track and the subway surface cars. But to be honest, if I were not a railfan, I would probably not take SEPTA again.
Can't say that I blame you. SEPTA has never beenone to let you get much for free. They even put up signs at stands with free RR schedules that say "These are expensive to print, please take no more than two".
SEPTA isn't too user friendly and does nothing to help with confused tourists. They put all the emphasis on the Regional Rail(just readthe Philadelphia Visitors Guide-avaiable free at 30th St-Amtrak) and none on city transit, save for the 76 bus and the subway to Pattison.
Naming is also not helpful. Once long ago, I knew someone visitng
Philadelphia who had to get to El to where he was going. When hegot here, he looked all over for signs "To the El". Market-Frankford Line may be nice, but even city residents don't call it that and would give you a blankstare if you asked for directions to it, just like if you said the blue line. If SEPTA would display "To Market-Frankford Line-The El" or something like that it would help a lot of people.
As for your experience, if it took more than an hour to get to 34th from Pattison once you were on the train, something was wrong. It doesn't take nearly that long driving! Even on the Schuykill Expressway(anyone who uses this highway knows why this is somehwat amusing).
If SEPTA doesn't promote using anything but the RR for just about anything not between 30th St. and City Hall, why have evrything else?
It appears that you got a dose of SEPTA - Serious About Change. I think this means they're serious that you better have the change to pay your fare and ride the system!
To add to previous comments and maybe stray back to the subject of the post, SEPTA has advertised for interest for 12 articulated LRV's. This is the first phase of the Route 15 rebuilding project. As strange as it sounds, the cars will NOT be used on 15 but will probably go to Route 13 and this will free up 15-20 Kawasakis for Route 15 service. Thus, the 21st century light rail line will be served by 20-year old LRV's. And, to top this off, there are NO plans to do any major rehab of the K cars to serve the line.
While I like rail transit, I am also a customer. SEPTA abandoned the last of its surface rail lines due to high operating cost, dwindling customer base, and the ability of buses to provide the same or even a superior level of service. Even with the separated R/W on portions of Erie Ave, the Route 56 car line ran much slower than its bus replacement since cars could be (and constantly were) blocked by double parkers, delivery trucks, etc. The mere reintroduction of rail vehicles onto the former rail lines, with no other improvements, will certainly not improve service.
SEPTA is entering into a re-design of Route 15 as a modern LRT line. The problem remains that less than half of the line has any possibility for segregated R/W, and SEPTA does not want to spend lots of money on this. The passengers, who can be served at curbside by buses, will need to venture into the center of the street to wait for cars, and even in so-called protected zones, they are very vulnerable to the many reckless auto drivers on the streets today. Of course, the biggest ruse is that LRV's follow today's trends in the leading cities, and the most progressive areas are bringing back rail transit. Try as it might, Route 15 still doesn't get riders downtown, where many want to go, like the lines being built by other cities. To get to Center City, riders will still have to transfer to the Subway or El, just like they have to do today. So, what advantage does the reintroduction of streetcars offer?
Transit funding is scarce. As a customer, I'm already paying one of the highest transit fares in the country, and I'm not getting nearly the service I could and should if SEPTA were really "serious about change". The Route 15 will require a significant investment and its riders will certainly not pay a fare any higher to cover this. The bottom line remains, is it worth it, or is it merely a political ruse? If you haven't guessed, my answer is (b).
Sorry you had a bad day on SEPTA! I just got back from a day of riding the MFSE & BSS (also the Ridge subway) and had a good time. There was a few long waits (7-10 minuutes) but it was because there was track repair jobs all over the MFSE "el". I rode all M-4's and they performed flawlessly except our operator overshot one station by just a little bit and had to back up. They will get used to the new trains very soon. On the BSS (Broad St. Subway) if you look thru the smoked window of a operator's cab(sit in the second car just behind the cab)
you can view the speedometer (digital). We hit 60 mph between Olney
& Erie Aves!
I really think SEPTA IS GETTING THERE!
Chuck Greene
The M-4's are infamous for always shooting over-the-mark, once by FOUR CARS!
I've noticed a disturbing trend here in Philly. There have been at least five incidents in the past year and a half of people either falling or getting pushed in front of trains, namely the El. Most recently was a man at 15th St.
How often does that happen in NY? I've personally lost someone as a result of them falling in front of a subway train.
Jack, Obviously I can't comment on NYC incidents but over this side of the Atlantic a subway(TUBE)train versus passenger accident is known as "one under" by staff.Traditionally the pre-christmas period is very busy with regards to these accidents and whilst I would say I have never heard of anyone being deliberatley pushed into the path of a moving train sadly each year many people are struck and fataly injured by moving Tube trains.
All London sub surface stations have a pit in between the running rails to offer some protection should anyone fall on the trackbed but as the power supply sytem uses a fourth rail in between the running rail clearance is still very tight.
London Underground operates several Emergency Response Units (ERU)
who attend these incidents as well as many other operating emergencies
and they are kept very busy with regards to number of jobs!
The new Jubilee line extension from Green Park station to Stratford in East London, will include platform doors which align with the train doors making it impossible to enter or fall on the tracks as the platform doors are not opened until the train doors are!!!!! this is a first for London and if it is sucessfull then other lines will be adapted although the ability to run different types of car with different door spacing maked this impossible on many lines...........
Hope this helps.
Rob
United Kingdom
Platform doors are used on People Mover trains at Chicago's O'Hare and Denver International Airports. O'Hare's system is elevated while Denver's is underground.
P. S. It's now official: they're not going to pursue building backup walkway tunnels between concourses at DIA because of cost. To say it was overlooked in the first place is an understatement, to say the least.
Rob
All my readings on the JLE say that the platform doors were not for safety but for temperature/air speed regulation.
Max Roberts
Also UK
I won't dispute your point Max, obviously temperature/air speed regulation and the management of air flow is very important on sub surface lines I was only relating the JLE as an example of what can be done to improve safety.Anything that creates a safer environment
for the passenger and of course the operating staff can only be on the plus side.
Rob
Rob,
This is completely true, and a safer environment can only encourage travel at times traditionally held to be unsafe.
I was alluding to the possibility that LT will extend platform doors if they successfully improve air flow (their specified purpose) but may not think about safety considerations.
Would platform doors require automatic train operation in order to be reliable, in which case the Victoria line will be the only candidate in the near future. Having said that, I was once on a Victoria line train that undershot every platform from Brixton by about six feet until it was taken out of service at Victoria (the driver manually repositioned the train at every stop).
Max
Max, with most lines fitted with the CSDE (correct side door enable)
feature I am sure that this operating safety system could also be linked to controllinh platform doors.
The question regarding Automatic Train Operation is a good one...
as The Central and Jubilee lines still have sop boards on the platform with a chevron area a green area and a chevron area....the train operator aiming to stop within the green area!!!.
That problem on the Victoria line you encountered reminds me of the famous incident a few years back when the train operator gave the start command but found a door to be obstructed (no interlock) and went platform side to close the door. The interlock was made, and as the start signal had been given off the train went, to be safely stopped at the next station but with no one to release the doors.That made the London Evening Standard Front page and also several of the national papers who looked at it in a humorous way, rather than highlighting the fact taht the safety systens brought the train to a stand!!.
The "piston" effect of trains moving air within a tunnel is also very intersting, not least following on from the Kings Cross Fire, and I wonder, if perhaps you do also, if platform doors would create a slightly better performance with the air being moved steadily rather than escaping at each station?????.
Rob.
I can only speak for NYC because recently, I looked up that exact information for a student's school project. The results even suprised me. I classified the incidents into 3 groups. From Mid-October to mid-November the results were:
Persons struck by trains: Roughly 3 per week during the period I checked. Most were jumpers and roughly 65% survived, at least to the point of being removed alive. Some were found as a result of a BIE with no clue as to how they managed to come to be under the train. Presumably, they fell from between cars or were on the tracks illegally. Note: on one particular day during this period, there were two such incidents on the 'E' line.
Persons not struck by trains: Too many incidents to count. More than 4 per day. Most were on the tracks illegally for various reasons. Virtually all fled the scene.
Persons struck by trains while on the platform: That's right and the train never left the track. This includes intoxicated persons who walk into the sides of moving trains or scholars who want to see what happens if they stick their foot in front of a moving train. There was roughly 2 such incidents like this recorded per week.
During the period I mentioned there were no reported 'Space Cases', the type of accident depicted in a much discussed episode of the TV show Homocide.
Amtrak must have put out another press release, since all of the local news stations ran a story about the high-speed rail service scheduled to begin next fall. Supposedly, two trainsets will begin running between BOS/South Station and NYC/Penn Station next October, with two trainsets added per month through 2000.
The one new piece of information in the story was a quoted fare: $112 each way. There was no mention of off-peak, round-trip, student/senior, or advance-purchase discounts, but I would guess (and hope) that the AMTRAK marketing gurus will do that.
As a point of comparison, the two air shuttles (USAirways and Delta) that run hourly service from BOS-LGA charge a peak, walk-up fare $200 each way; a round trip is $406 including taxes and fees. There are various discounts available which can cut this in half for those eligible.
Even at roughly $225 round-trip for the train, I'm willing to bet that the airlines will lose a lot of business travelers to the train given that the train will take three hours from downtown to midtown, which compares favorably with the time to get to/from the airports and central business districts.
By the way, here in the Boston area, line poles and associated hardware are up along much of the BOS-PVD section of the main line. It looks like wire will appear soon!
> The one new piece of information in the story was a quoted fare:
> $112 each way
Yikes! This is more than double the current fare. (I just booked a r/t trip NY-Penn to Boston-Back Bay for $96.) The $225r/t fare has to be the reserved first-class fare a la the Metroliner vs. Northeast Direct service on the NYP-Washington corridor. I hope. Otherwise the train doesn't look so attractive even with all of the upgrades they will have done.
-Dave
High Speed is a misnomer. The trains will not exceed 150MPH, and that'll only happen for a couple minutes at peak. The fact is, trains could go faster in the 40's in this country. For truly high speed service we need to emulate Germany and Japan and develop Maglev technology (which was originally discovered in the States) for speeds up to 300 MPH and 0 to 300 in one mile and 300 to 0 in one mile.
I vote that we all start calling the new Amtrak service Amtrak Faster-Train service.
Re: Amtrak faster then the 40s' ?
Well they are "easing" a number of curves, but you're right, the speed will still be down from what it could be.
Re: [need to emulate Germany and Japan and develop Maglev technology
for speeds up to 300 MPH]
As I've said a couple of times there is a ROW, well at least most of it is still there (no tracks after Middletown CT), between NH & Boston that was called the "Airline" route. It could be built up to 300 MPH standards from scratch. Most of the Middletown to Boston piece is rual, so just cows would claim NIMBY.
Meanwhile, what there're doing is costing a lot of bucks, it's a start.
Mr t__:^)
Yes, they should be faster, but let's cut Amtrack a little slack. Even if the train's top speed was not increased at all, the continuous electric service between Bos and NY will be a huge improvement over having to wait in New Haven while they switch engines to and from Desil. They have also promised other perks over the airlines like comfort, better food (we'll see) tray tables designed for LapTops, and electrical outlets at each seat. Not to mention the time, cost and hassle of interfacing at both airports. Any system can always be better. I am hopefull that they will be competative.
> They have also promised other perks
How about a railfan seat :)
--Mark
Yes, the line from NY-Boston will not be as fast as lines in Germany, France, and Japan. You get what you pay for. Feel free to write your legislators and ask them to provide funding for amtrak to keep upgrading their line to get to faster speeds. The countries above spent enormous sums of money on those lines. Any upgrade from 150 mph will be very very expensive, as it was in europe.
You are incorrect when you state that trains were going 150 mph in the 40s. There has never been service at that speed anywhere in the americas. Some folks have run some trains awfully fast, but no one has offered service to the public at that speed.
Also, maglev technology has not been used anywhere in a system that actually transports anyone. The Germans have been trying to develop it for 20 or 30 years, the japanese too. So far, they have gotten a lot of articles written up in Popular science. I think that's about it. From all indications, Maglev will simply be a much much more expensive way to move a train at a given speed. It will be a while before a maglev moves passengers any faster than the french move them on TGV, and it will be awfully expensive. To move them faster will require dealing with similar right of way problems....
Finally, Maximum Speed Is Overrated. Consider the airplane. It goes several hundred miles an hour but does not cut it for short trips because air travel has unavoidable slow segments. Hopefully, amtrak is focusing intently on getting trains up to "cruising speed" as soon as possible after leaving the platform. This is the best way to cut running time. As you increase the maximum speed of a train, the cost goes up approximately exponentially. However, the time savings are rapidly diminishing.
Todd, the current issue of Railway Age had a picture of the new locos AMTRAK will be using for this service. If the mag. hasn't been taken from my desk, I'll scan you a copy.
I could sware I saw catenary wire up along sections of the NEC near Sharon, Mass, when I was there visiting family last week.
--Mark
When will the 2 and the 3 train work be done?
Of course it will!!!!
The only question is when.
What work? The Lenox Ave tunnel is finished, all thats left is the rehab of 116st. Unless there's something going on that no one has mentioned before...
-Hank
The only thing I can think of is the late night 2 running around the South Ferry loopfrom Wall St (Lex) to Chambers St, while track work is done at Wall St (7th Ave) and Park Place
Visited my sister this past weekend & she handed me some notes on this bus line:
- SEAT = SouthEast Area Transit
- Serves New London County: Waterford, Niantic, Groton, Mystic, Norwich and the casinos (I got the impression this was charter work).
- Sounds like they have 40' RTS type buses, seats 46 w/20 standees
- Fleet = 25 buses
- More info:
- a. call: 860-886-2631
- b. write: Route 12, Preston, CT
Mr t__:^)
Check out my website at http://members.tripod.com/~MUNI/
Does anyone know of a web site that has rosters of Amtrak equipment (locomotives and cars), both past and present?
Thank you.
ALL MAJOR RAILROADS HAD STEP STOOLS AND ASHTRAY STANDS FOR THE COMFORT OF THEIR PASSENGERS. AS WELL AS DINNER WARE FOR THEIR DINING CARS. DID THIS ALSO APPLY TO THE LONG ISLAND RAILROAD?
ARE ANY OF THESE ITEMS AVAILABLE IN THE COLLECTABLE MARKET AND WHAT PRICE RANGE?
I saw something on here about more freight rail. I think this is a must. But also there should be other bolder alternatives for moving freight about in Downstate New York.
Pipes and electrical cable can be used to move energy into Manhattan. Gas and Electrical heat can make a difference as far as traffic and pollution from oil and coal trucks. There could even be some kind of limited oil pipeline set up to service larger building complexes, say down around Wall Street, or it could be built into the expansion of Battery Park City or the new Trump buildings on the train yards on the west side. Oil could be deliverd via a shipping terminals on the Hudson.
Also, improvements to the sewage system could allow for Garbage disposal units to cart refuse that would otherwise go into Noisy, Street-blocking, Desil burning sanitation trucks. I read somewhere that 6 percent of city refuse is organic food matter that might be disposed of via drain pipes.
Efficiency is another weapon against freight traffic, and pollution.
Any thoughts???
I have thought about moving goods by pipeline. Imagine what the city's roads would be like if water had to be trucked in and out. In that sense, natural gas heat and how water is better than coal or oil. I'll never forget the oil trucks trying to get though the blizzard of 96, while gas flowed to my furnace by pipe. One could say that's one more reason to favor gas heat, or (perhaps someday) a gas/rooftop solar combination.
But what else can we really move in a pipe? The private-sector will never make a profit installing oil pipelines to every building. Gasoline need only go to gas stations, but even these are too dispersed to serve profitably, and the airports already gets kerosine by pipeline.
It's like railroads. You can get stuff to the metro area by rail or pipeline, but freight movement within the area must be by truck. There is no other way. So all these proposals will not remove trucks from the streets. They will only remove trucks from the Hudson River Crossings, if containers can be loaded from trains and boats to trucks east of the river rather than west. This whole get the trucks off the roads argument is nonsense.
The only way to get fewer trucks is to produce and use less stuff, with less packaging. We're heading that way for other reasons. There are far fewer trucks making pick-ups and deliveries in Manhattan that 30 years ago, for better or worse. If you want to stop people going through Manhattan to avoid the tolls, than toll the East River Bridges.
Another Idea to reduce truck commerce might be the mail.
If government checks, Like Social Security, Welfare, Unemployment, Disability, Child Care, City,State,and Fed Pensions, And Governement payments for contracts, and loans were all electronically billed and deposited, that would take a lot of mail out of the Postal System.
If the State, or even the Post Office, created some sort of tax, or tax incentive, to get the Gas, Phone, Long Distance, Electric, Water and Cable companies on an electronic payment plan that would be a lot of mail too.
Remember, there are millions of telephone customers and each month they get a bill. The bill is then returned, with a check, by mail. That's 2 pieces of mail per month per customer, and that's just the phone company.
With a little thought, there might even be a way to get the credit card companies and department stores doing electronic billing and payment.
The question is: What percentage of the mail is made up of BILLS that could be billed and paid electronically. In my house, I would guess 15-18%. And let's not forget the millions of city, state, and Fed checks that come through the mail!
Also, I get my gas from Brooklyn Union Gas. They Bill me every other month. So even without Electronic Banking, they have found a way to reduce their mailings by 50%!!!
If they have 300,000 customers, that's a million dollars in stamps Each month! And a million dollars in stamps for their customers as well! 12 million dollars a year, not counting handling or the cost of paper. And let's not forget about the paper, which has to be shipped via truck to the billing location, and carried off in the form of trash at the end of the day.
That's a lot of trucks!
That's a lot of paper!
That's a lot of stamps!
Traffic! Pollution! Noise! Trees! Sanitation Salaries! Mail Room Salaries! Envelope Making Machine Electricity! Printing Machine Electricity! Real Estate for Sanatation Garages! And On and On.
The junk mail is far worse than the bills where I am.
Electronic billing is feasible only for those people who have a computer at home. Most people don't have computers. You won't be able to eliminate the lowest common denominator - snail mail.
Also, people have to agree to let utilities, credit card companies, etc, have access to a bank account that they automatically debit from month to month. But you need to acknowledge to these people that a bill is due. If you don't have an e-mail account, how do you do that?
You can certainly reduce the need for snail mail but I don't think a utility or any company would be able to outright stop using it.
Then again. Lets visit this issue in 50 years and see how far we've progressed.
--Mark
> I read somewhere that 6 percent of city refuse is organic food
> matter that might be disposed of via drain pipes.
For the longest time, use of a garbage disposal in your sink's drain was illegal in NYC. I don't think this is true anymore; nevertheless, old habits die hard.
--Mark
For those of you who may want to know, SEPTA has changed their homepage at www.septa.org
Maybe they are serious about change.
I was just skimming thorugh the 5-Year plan for Strategic change at www.we'vefinallyupdatedourwebsiteSEPTA.org.
For those of you not following the conversations between myself, Bobw and a few others, they do mention the plans for extending the NHSL, creation of the Schuylkill Valley and Cross-Country(???) Metros and surprisingly, the need for new light rail service, particularly along Girard Avenue(the 15).
Maybe there's hope for SEPTA after all.
Now I'm going to vouch to get them to get pictures of the equipment in the site(one or two per vehicle-bus, subway and el, RR, etc).
How 'bout dat?
The new website looks good, and they even 'speellled everithing write" unlike some previous gaffes....
Like the idea of pics though - they tried a little one in the upper left; seems like they are *getting there!*
I'm looking to add to my collection of monthly bus/rail passes. I am interested in recently-expired weekly/monthly passes from the following cities: Boston, MA (prefer Combo, Combo Plus and higher); Chicago, IL; Pittsburgh and Philadelphia PA (anything except the Cross County Pass, I have no interest in those); San Francisco, Los Angeles and San Diego (any weekly and/or monthly passes will suffice); Miami, FL (as many as one can spare). In return, I can send out MTA MetroCard fare cards from New York City.
My home address can be obtained privately via e-mail.
Thanks.
Sorry, but I doubt you'll get any expired passes from Boston. If you save them for a year and mail them to your auto insurance agent, you get a rebate on your policy. For me, it's $75/year, or one free month of commuting! Such a deal!
I got a million old transpasses from 1996 on up to the middleof this year and a trailpass.
Jack, I want to be your best friend ! I have about 3 dozen, mostly recent MC & a few out-of-town.
Sorry, I was unable to send you a private message, but click on my name above & send me one so we can talk off-line.
Mr t__:^)
On the Red Line when it comes out of the subway after the North/Clybourn Subway Station all the way to the Addison Street Elevated Station. Workers have appeared and equipment on this section for about 2 YEARS now.
Will the work ever be done and what are they doing that take so long?
Alos the Red Line's Elevated section are over 100 years old, will they ever be renovated or are they built strong enough to last forever? The Chicago Tribune is quoted as saying the Elevated Structures were built to hold more then twice the weight of stations and trains and could last "forever".
And finally, when will the renovation of the Douglas/Cermak branch of the Blue line begin and the extension of Brown Line platforms to put eight car train service into effect?
They have had the ground level portion of the Blue Line's Douglas/Cermak branch renovation planned out and posted on the CTA Web Site for about 3 months now. Recently the renovation plans for the ground level portion were taken down and not replaced. I wonder if they planned out the whole line's renovation and are planning to post it with a start date soon. That is my other question, when will the renovations start, Blue & Brown Line?
Thanks again
BJ
On the Port Jefferson line, in between Syosset and Hicksville there is a station Landia. Now I have never seen it or never saw it on a schedule. Yet if you call the LIRR phone number for schedules, they have the station Landia. Why is that?
There IS? Since when? I'm not disputing this fact, as I have not been over that way in over ten years. I remember seeing it on timetables back in the 1960s, it didn't even have a platform (just a black-and-yellow sign on a white post), and it was closed around the early 70s. Have they rebuilt it, i.e. new platform? Is there parking? Is it still at Robbins Lane? I thought the LIRR was CLOSING stations, not opening new ones.
Wayne
I'm not sure where the station is. Just call either 718-217-LIRR or 516-822-LIRR, then follow the instructions for schedule info and type in Landia!
It won't give you sched info, but it acknowlages it. I didn't even know there WAS a station there, I guess they axed it after the M-1s came. Oh yeah, the phone thing still thinks Richmond Hill is open.
Others to try:
Penny Bridge
Glendale
Fresh Pond
Haberman
Mill Neck
Hillside Facility (for employees only, why the hell do they even HAVE this station, and why does every freaking train have to stop there?)
Woodhaven Blvd doesn't work.
Bonus points if they have departure times for any of the above.
And even more bonus points for anyone who can get and scan a ticket for Landia!!!!!!
And even MORE bonus points for anyone who can do above THEN get on a train to huntington, ask the conductor where it is, show him the ticket, and get dumped off there!!!!
I actually used the Landia station when I was a teenie weather weanie in the early 70's; my aunt and uncle lived near-by. But the station was eliminated around then. Now if you pass by on an MU you can vaugely imagine that there was enough room for a mini-platform by the Robbins Lane crossing. But if you don't know where to look, you'd never get the idea there was a station there 25+ years ago.
Boland's Landing is sort of a "phantom" LIRR station. It's an employee-only stop at the Morris Park diesel yards, located west of Jamaica on the Flatbush Avenue line. Unlike Hillside (the other employee-only stop), Boland's Landing doesn't appear in the timetables or on the Web site, although trains do stop there.
The platform at Boland's Landing is a rather crude wooden affair, just two cars long.
There is also an 'employee only' platform at Harold Tower in Sunnyside yard. Now the biggie question of the day. Where is there a similar platform for NYCT employees? Bill and Mike are disqualified.
Hmmm...I know there is a platform below MTA HQ for the "money train", but that couldn't be the answer, it'd be too much of a giveaway :)
I believe Belmont had his own platform for Mineola uder some hotel he owned, though I don't know where or if it's still around...
I *do* know that the Waldorff Astoria has, or at least had a connection to a platform in or near GCT on Metro-North. The last known use of it was the intro of the Alco PA locomotive I think...
August Belmont did, indeed, have a spur running into the basement of his Belmont Hotel. I believe the original Contract One line runs (or ran) through the basement where it turned west from Park Ave. to 42nd St. The spur entrance is still there, most likely at the shuttle track which connects to the Lex, although it has been closed off. That's how he would take his guests on his Mineola from his hotel to Belmont Park via the LIRR by means of the former track connection at Atlantic Ave.
Steve,
My guess at your quiz:
How about on the #7 line just before Corona Yard? I've been on trains that have been "flagged" to stop there.
There is or was an employee-only stop on the N train in the Coney Island yards.
Peter,
Good guess but wrong. Last month, the Chief Transportation Officer put out a bulletin reminding train operators about unauthorized stops. The one he used as an example was the particular one that you mentioned......
Good answer Todd. That's one of 6 onthe NYCT. And Peter, my appologies to you. I mis-read the bulletin. You were correct.
According to the bulletin, all stops between stations must be approved by Control Center except at the following locations:
1st Ave on the #7 Line
111th St Tower on the #7 line (Todd)
Adjacent Stillwell Yd, B & N lines (Peter)
North Channel Bridge, South Channel Bridge, and Hammel's Wye on the A line.
[According to the bulletin, all stops between stations must be approved by Control Center except at the following locations:
1st Ave on the #7 Line]
What's located there?
I had heard at First ave the staircase leads to the U.N. Not kidding.
[I had heard at First ave (on the 7) the staircase leads to the U.N. Not kidding.]
Now that would be interesting! If true, that must be one long staricase, given the tunnel's depth so close to the river crossing.
Maybe there's a secret elevator. If this stop does, in fact, lead to the U. N. buildings, that would be one of the TA's best kept secrets.
I've seen photos of an old trolley tunnel along 42nd St. from 2nd Av. to the bottom of the hill where the FDR Drive now runs. Wasn't the (7) line East River tunnel originally built as a trolley tunnel? Perhaps there was a station or connection.
Bob Sklar
I do recall seeing something in Newsday way back (probably about 10 years ago or more) about a proposal to rebuild and reopen the Landia station. The thought was that it would ease parking problems at both Syosset and Hicksville and also support some of the commercial development in that area.
I had assumed that the proposal had died as quickly as it had surfaced, but perhaps the LIRR programmed Landia into their phone system in the event it resurfaced.
Possibly you mean ISLANDIA? I believe there is such a station on the LIRR. It is probably recent, as I never even heard of the town Islandia until I found it to be the headquarters of Computer Associates (the software company who bought up just about every other non-IBM mainframe software company around!).
How about it? How far back in time do the town and station Islandia go?
Bob Sklar
[Possibly you mean ISLANDIA? I believe there is such a station on the LIRR. It is probably recent, as I never even heard of the town Islandia until I found it to be the headquarters of Computer Associates (the software company who bought up just about every other non-IBM mainframe software company around!).]
There's no LIRR station at Islandia, and no line through the town for that matter. Central Islip is probably the nearest station.
The reason you haven't heard of Islandia is probably because the name is relatively recent. It was carved out of an adjoining town or towns sometime in the 1960s, as far as I know. There really isn't much there besides CA and some other offices, no town center as far as I can tell.
Not only is Landia on the LIRR information phone service. For the heck of it I typed in Union Hall Street station. Now as your train creeps towards Jamaica or right after Jamaica towards East, that station is not in operation form and has been abandoned for some time.
For the record (though it's probably been posted already) LANDIA station was located in Syosset, at the intersection of Robbins Lane and the Huntington branch. It never amounted to much, just a few white posts and a black-and-yellow sign (later white-and-blue). It didn't even rate a platform. It closed in the 70s.
Wayne
This stop, more than likely, serviced the employees at Fairchild Camera & Instrument in its heyday....much as the old ML stop at Rt. 110 for Republic...
[This stop, more than likely, serviced the employees at Fairchild Camera & Instrument in its heyday....much as the old ML stop at Rt. 110 for Republic...]
Older maps show a Grumman Aircraft stop on the main line between Hicksville and Bethpage. It most likely was closed after the line's electrification in the mid-1980s. There's no remaining trace, as far as I can tell, so there probably wasn't an actual station facility.
Even when Grumman station was active, there was no trace of it! It was basically a stretch of dirt located where South Oyster Bay Road crossed the railroad line. It didn't even rate a sign. South Farmingdale station (just east of Main Street) was another one without a platform.
BTW - a friend of mine sent me a NY Times clipping (recent) "Firsts By Rail" which shows an antique LIRR train, might be a MP-41 (has square windows in front, not portholes), two cars, sitting at a station. Where the heck was this photo taken? It looks like somewhere in the Garden City/Country Life Press area (note the curved track at left).
I noticed the 'X' braces between the poles in the background - they had these types of poles along the abandoned W.Hempstead-to-Country Life Press link (maybe still do). But I can't place the station!
Anyone who knows where this photo was taken, either e-mail me or post a response.
Thanks
Wayne
My uncle worked at that Grumman plant in 1968-69; he played an active role in the design of the LEM life support systems on the Apollo spacecraft. He and my aunt lived in Farmingdale, practically right on the LIRR tracks. The Farmingdale station was right there. My mother and I rode out there once in July 1969; I don't believe there was a station platform.
I asked him if anyone tried to get a hold of him during the crisis on Apollo 13 (he had moved to Chicago by then); he says some people did.
As a young child, I remember a stop between Bethpage and Babylon just south of Conklin Ave (I think) and south of the point where the tracks branch off from the Ronkonkoma line. Does anyone remember this stop or know what it was called?
I believe that was South Farmingdale. When I was in high school I would visit my cousins in Brightwaters by riding from Albertson to Bay Shore via Mineola and the link from Hicksville to Babylon.
Sometimes I could convince the conductor to sell me a "direct" ticket from Zone 7 to Zone 10; others would force me to buy two tickets (Zone 7 to Zone 4, then Zone 4 to Zone 10). Each conductor thought his was was the right way.
Last week I saw a Conductor sell a Gentleman a ticket from Deer Park to Manhassett. That's zome 9 to zone 4 for an amazing $11.50 (off-peak) because he had to go to Woodside (zone 1). The RR with a heart.
About 15 years ago the LIRR policy was that you could buy an indirect ticket from a station agent for the cost of the longest leg of your trip. These tickets were not available on the train.
For example, I could travel from Rockville Centre to New Hyde Park via Jamaica for the cost of a one-way ticket from RVC to Jamaica. But if I travelled from Oceanside (where the ticket office closed at 10 AM) to NHP, I'd have to pay for each leg of my trip (including paying a penalty fare for the Jamaica to NHP leg if I didn't go downstairs at Jamaica to buy my ticket at the office).
Does anyone know if this is still the policy for indirect routes?
The Boston MBTA Purple Line Commuter Rail has an interzone fare schedule of $1.50 for the first zone, plus $0.25 for each additional zone. Suchadeal!
[As a young child, I remember a stop between Bethpage and Babylon just south of Conklin Ave (I think) and south of the point where the tracks branch off from the Ronkonkoma line. Does anyone remember this stop or know what it was called?]
That probably was South Farmingdale. As far as I know, it was the only stop on the Bethpage-Babylon stretch of the Central Branch.
You are correct. The exact location was the north side of the tracks just east of Main Street Farmingdale. A faint remnant can still be seen, a few white posts lying on ground in the weeds. The clearing is still there too.
Maybe one day they'll put a stop in for North Lindenhurst or West Babylon along this route. I don't know why they never electrified it. Runs not too far from my house.
Wayne
[Maybe one day they'll put a stop in for North Lindenhurst or West Babylon along this route. I don't know why they never electrified it. Runs not too far from my house.]
Having some stops on the Central Branch might not be a bad idea, but keep in mind that they wouldn't have much service. As far as I can tell, the line gets only a few peak-direction Montauk trains during each rush hour. There's no service on weekends or at nights, and I don't think there's anything during mid-days.
I've seen the 9:02am weekend train use this branch occasionally, in fact, I've been on it a couple of times when it did. There is a train that comes through about 1:36am bound for Patchogue or Speonk. There's also a westbound that goes by at 1:07am. In mid-afternoon, one train comes through eastbound at about 3:38pm. I hear these guys so often I can set a clock by them. The distance from my house to the Albin Avenue/John Street crossing in West Babylon is 0.6 miles.
Muncy Avenue crossing is even closer as the crow flies, only 0.45 miles, but there's no street that leads there directly. Plus the crossing itself has been closed off to keep trucks out of the Muncy Avenue neighborhood; industrial park's back there, complete with a Gershon car-and-appliance-crushing plant, Strahl & Pitch's House of Wax and Elm's huge cement farm.
Wayne
Thanks for the information. I hadn't realized that there was that much service on the Central Branch. Maybe a station or two would be a good idea ...
Wayne,that train that passes at 1:36am is the 1:03am out of Jamaica bound for Montauk.I've been on that train a couple of times.
Yes, and when I hear its horn, I know it is past my bedtime. That is train #2702, according to my trusty timetable. We live just on the other side of the Van Bourgondien Park, which borders the Our Lady Of Grace church property, which in turn borders the tracks. I don't mind hearing the train whistles at all. In fact, it sounds like the new bilevels are prowling this line at about 7:40am..the horn is distinctive.
Wayne
[We live just on the other side of the Van Bourgondien Park, which borders the Our Lady Of Grace church property, which in turn borders the tracks. I don't mind hearing the train whistles at all. In fact, it sounds like the new bilevels are prowling this line at about 7:40am..the horn is distinctive.]
You're right about the bilevels. They've been running for the past month or so on the 6:53 from Patchogue to Long Island City. It leaves Babylon about 7:30, so it would pass by your area around 7:40. I usually go from Medford, but once a week or so (including today) I take the 6:53 for a change of pace.
Ahhhhhhhhh, nothing beats those nice wide seats on the bilevels ....
Perhaps one reason that they do not put a station there is that they would then have to provide real service along that line. Right now they can divert those trains to the main babylon line if need be, and the service frequency is still low. If they put a station there, pretty soon people will want trains to stop there! And wouldn't Babylon passengers be mad to lose their non-stops?
[Perhaps one reason that they do not put a station there is that they would then have to provide real service along that line. Right now they can divert those trains to the main babylon line if need be, and the service frequency is still low. If they put a station there, pretty soon people will want trains to stop there! And wouldn't Babylon passengers be mad to lose their non-stops?]
Low service frequency on the Central Branch shouldn't be a complete bar to a new station. I usually ride from Medford, which has only a handful of trains each day, the last one leaving Penn Station at 5:41 pm. It does require some planning - if I have a lot of stuff at work and might have to stay late, I'll go from Patchogue instead. But most of the time, Medford works okay, and in fact the number of daily riders seems to have increased modestly. Being considerably closer to Penn Station, I'm sure that a West Babylon or South Farmingdale station would attract a good deal of ridership.
As far as the diversions are concerned, you are right, with a stop or two along the line it would no longer be possible to divert Central Branch trains along the Valley Stream - Babylon line. But other lines don't have any such flexibility either. Finally, I wouldn't imagine that Babylon riders would mind too much. Not that many people get on or off at Babylon, and many of the Central Branch trains already have intermediate stops at Hicksville and/or Mineola.
I rode the J from Jamaica Center to Broadway Junction today, and the thought came to me...
How bad would a storm have to get for the J to be taken out of service? I would imagine that riding that elevated train, especially the double S-curve, through a very bad storm (rain OR snow) would not be much fun.
I think it depends on the equipment, to some degree. The story goes that the R-16s didn't fare too well in snowy weather. Back when they ran on the Eastern Division, if a snowstorm was bearing down on Brooklyn, the R-16s would be sent to the Canarsie line, and BMT standards would go to work on the Broadway, Myrtle Ave., and Jamaica lines. It would take the equivalent of the blizzard of 1888 to knock those cars out of action.
Reminds me of a particulary bad snowstorm in early (Jan/Feb?) 1961. At that time, some of the R27s had been delivered and were in service on the Brighton Local (QT) line. When the bad snowstorm hit, the R27s were exchanged with the Standards still running on the 4th Ave. Local (RR) line, which at that time was totally underground (I guess, pretty much the same route as today, 95th St to Continental Ave.).
I don't know if the R27s had similar problems in the snow as R16s, or the TA was just being skittish with their new cars based on their experiences with the R16s.
I'll bet the Triplexes weren't fazed by heavy snow, either. One has to wonder how 4th Ave. local riders reacted the first time they saw the R-27s. Probably "Huh? What's an RR?" Then again, they may have just looked at the marker lights.
In snow, elevated lines are typically the last to close if accumulations are high. I think the F stayed open all during the Blizzard of 1996, if I remember correctly. The Brighton Line closed mainly because of the open cut section.
I don't ever recall outdoor lines closing because of heavy rain, unless open cut sections on the Sea Beach or Brighton Line got flooded.
Believe it or not, I think falling leaves in the fall pose more of a hazard than rain or snow. Ever try stopping your car on wet leaves?
--Mark
Actually, all the outside lines shut down during the blizzard. The TA ran service on indoor lines only, using the limited number of trains stashed on the ROW. It was a good plan, but little publicized. Newsradio88 and the Mayor, at the command center, said nothing about the subways on Monday and Tuesday.
Recall that the blizzard started late Sunday, and lasted all Monday. Tuesday the Mayor urged city workers, and everyone else, to stay home, and then charged a vacation day.
On Wednesday, we tried to go to work. We heard from a neighbor that the TA had plowed out 4th Avenue station, and single F was shuttling between Church and 4th, where you transferred to the 4th Ave line. But we had to drop the kids at a babysitter on Prospect Ave, so we walked down to 4th Avenue and squeezed on. There is no way anyone at 9th Street transferred to the F at rush hour -- to crowded -- but we made it. The only elevated line running on Wednesday was the Flushing Line, where resources were directed. The other Brooklyn El and Open cut lines were not open until Thursday, at the earliest.
Side streets in Park Slope/Windsor Terrace were not plowed until two weeks later, and then by back-hoes. Bus service was trashed. The TA appears to have waited too long to pull the buses off the street, and lots of them were trapped, including several on Prospect Park SW.
Fortunately, the air warmed and melted a lot of the snow over those two weeks.
We haven't had a decent, sleddable snow in the two winters since.
At least they didn't try to pack the snow down using garbage trucks. We got dumped on in Denver back in 1983 during Thanksgiving weekend (about 18 inches), and then-mayor Pena came up with the aforementioned brilliant idea. After the garbage trucks did their thing, we got hit with an arctic blast in mid-December which kept temperatures below zero for 115 straight hours. All that packed-down snow froze solid, leaving streets rutted for months. Snow removal is a major political hot potato in Denver. Contrary to popular belief, Denver doesn't get anywhere near as much snow as the mountains do.
BTW, how many of you remember the blizzard of February 1969? Mayor Lindsay was greeted with insults when he visited Queens (after the E and F lines got Wayne's new slant R-40s). I rememeber hearing on the news that only local service was operating on the Brighton line; I can't recall if any lines were completely shut down. At least we got a couple of days off from school, even though we had to make them up in June.
[re trying to get to work after the blizzard]
I took Metro North's New Haven line in from Connecticut on the Tuesday after the blizzard. It arrived at Grand Central only a few minutes late. Apparently not many other trains were running as a huge mob tried to board the train as I was trying to get off. There were a couple of diverted Amtrak trains at Grand Central, quite an usual site.
Now the next day, Wednesday, I rode in on Metro North's Harlem line (my usual route in those days). Tuesday went fine, so Wednesday should be even better, right? Not quite. The braking system somehow got fouled with snow north of Katonah, and we were stuck for almost four hours until a "rescue train" could be dispatched.
PATH was out from Newark to Journal Square till Wed. The stretch from Journal Square to the tunnel portals was never closed.
NJT ran on a sunday schedule for Mon- Wed. and only opened the end doors-even on the high platforms.
Since then both have bought jet snow melters
Hi Mark! Talking about slippery leaves, I just pick up a flyer SEPTA put out giving excuses about slippery rails and their solutions to this problem!
Chuck Greene
Have you seen their bills about what SEPTA does in bad winter weather?
Such as storing subway/el cars in carhouses and tunnels and even not running the 35 because of Manayunk's you'd-have-to-be-some-kind-of-masochist-to-enjoy-riding-your-bike-up-them hills.
The "Fall is a slippery season on SEPTA" bills are prominent this time o' year.
As a dweller at the top of "them hills", I can vouch for the tens of 35 riders (I think there might be 11 or 12 of them) who are inconvenienced by slippery hills. The 35 is always my "barometer" of how bad road conditions are in my neck of the woods...
Seriously, SEPTA has a strange winter policy, at least on the bus routes. It leaves the judgement up to each operator. You should see these hill climbers (9, 27, 32, 65) just pull over and stop if they have any doubt that they might not make it. I've been on fully-loaded buses where operators merely pulled over at the bottoms and tops of hills and violated the "social contract" by exclaiming that that's as far as the bus is going today.
I used to like snow...
Does anyone know the results of the multi-weekend Manhattan Bridge inspections that eliminated train service on tbe bridge those weekends?
Mike Rothenberg
I was driving along Atlantic Ave on day when I looked over to my right and saw something different. Normally there would be trians stored in the yard for the LIRR lines. Instead, I could have swornI saw buses being stored there. At first I thuoght that I was seeing things because it was a night, but later that week at daylight, I saw it again!!! Does anyone have any expalination for what I saw or am I just delerious. If i am not why is there busesd fbeing stored there? Is it for repairs or additional service? Please let me know.
I rarely pass through that area, but it's quite possible that you saw buses being stored. NYCT currently has many older buses stored in various locations.
Probably a spillover from nearby ENY. They've been doing that for years.
it is called carleton storage lot.nyct keeps o/s buses there pending scrapping or return to service.
The buses being stored there are awaiting scrap,unfortunately. The 9000 series Novas should be scrapped as far as Iam concerned.Especially Fresh Pond Depot 9000s
BTW The Fresh Pond Depot 9000s Inotice have lots of scrapes on them along the sides.The other Novas from other depots don't.
Re: Fresh Pond scrapes
Thats because of those subway pillars you have to weave your way through, I did my 7 days of training there and i was the lucky guy to pull the bus out every day.
What is the TA going to do with the thru express tracks north of 180th street? Are they goin to use it again for #5 thru express service to 241st? Also, since the 2 and 5 changed Bronx terminals why did they in the first place.
Terminal change for the 2 & 5 lines??? I've never heard about this.
According to Joel G., the 2 and 5 swapped terminals in the Bronx to what they are today on June 13, 1965. The present service pattern for the Thru Express also took effect the following day - Monday the 14th - with one qualification. Back then, it terminated at 241st St.; today, it only goes to 238th St.
Well... That explains it. The swap actually took place before I was born.
The scary part is the fact that I remember 1965 quite well, even though I was still a kid. June 13 happens to be my parents' anniversary; they're at 52 years and counting. July 21 was a red-letter date that year; I rode my very first subway train that day. It was a hot day, but it actually felt quite comfortable on the 86th floor of the Empire State Building. The day before, we rode into Penn Station (what was left of it) from Linden, NJ, and took the LIRR to the World's Fair. On the way back to Manhattan that evening, my folks said we would be going to the Empire State Building the following day, and my father pointed it out to me through the train window. The only detail I can recall from Penn Station was that the loudspeaker in the waiting area (was the main waiting room still standing then?) was LOUD! Our train to Linden left from track #2. There used to be a stop at North Elizabeth back then after Newark. I remember hearing the conductor calling out that station.
Ah, memories. I can still see that first N train of shiny new R-32s...
"There used to be a stop at North Elizabeth back then after Newark"
It's still there! Although 9 out of 10 trains don't stop there, it is still there and in use.
I know you're always talking about just missing nostalgia train trips, so I'll try to break this to you gently, but you missed another red letter day just 2 days later. On July 23rd, 1965, the D-Types were retired from revenue service.
--Mark
I know all about that now. The kicker is we were in the city on July 21 and 22 and rode on the BMT Southern Division both days along Broadway and 4th Ave. Our trips to Manhattan were on N trains of R-32s, since they went over the bridge and were marked "57th St." On the 21st, we were at the Empire State Building and the Statue of Liberty; more than likely we ended up on an RR on the way back from Whitehall St. to 36th St. in Brooklyn. On the 22nd, we took the Circle Line around Manhattan. We even took a West End local from possibly 36th St. to 71st St., but it was during midday on a train of (I think) R-32s. Being the observant type, I know I would have noticed a Triplex train. Chances are that only a few of them were still running by then, and we didn't happen to catch one. If we were off the subway by 3:00 PM, that would explain it, too, since the West End Express didn't resume operation until that time.
That's OK; I gave away my Nolan Ryan rookie card along with my other baseball cards in 1973 when we moved to Connecticut. AARRRGGHHH!!!! I did keep my 1968 Tom Seaver card, though.
THE NO 2 AND NO 5 LINES IN THE BRONX EXCHANGED TERMINALS ON SUNDAY,APRIL 18,1965.THE PURPOSE FOR THIS WAS TO ESTABLISH A FIXED ROUTE FOR NO 2 TRAINS BETWEEN 241 ST AND NEW LOTS AV (NOT FLATBUSH) AT ALL TIMES 24/7.PRIOR TO THIS NO 2 TRAINS RAN BETWEEN 241 ST AND NEW LOTS LATE NIGHTS ONLY AND BETWEEN DYRE AV OR E 180 ST AND FLATBUSH AT OTHER TIMES.THE NO 5 LEXINGTON AV EXP WOULD RUN BETWEEN DYRE AV AND SOUTH FERRY/ATLANTIC AV/UTICA AV AT ALL TIMES EXCEPT NIGHTS WHEN DYRE AV SHUTTLE WOULD RUN. THE NO 5 LEXINGTON AV THRU-EXP WOULD CONTINUE TO RUN 241 ST-UTICA M-F AM RUSH STBD,PM RUSH NTBD.NOTE AT THIS TIME NO 5 EXPRESS MADE ALL BX STOPS WHILE NO 5 THRU-EXPRESSES RAN EXP BETWEEN GUN HILL RD AND 3 AV-149 ST WITH A STOP AT E 180 ST.PASSENGERS BOARDING AT LOCAL STOPS ON THE WHITE PLAINS RD LINE BETWEEN GUN HILL RD AND E 180 ST COMPLAINED THAT THEY LOST LEXINGTON AV SERVICE SO ON MAY 3,1965 THRU-EXPRESSES BEGAN MAKING LOCAL STOPS NORTH OF E 180 ST.HOPE THIS HELPS.
Now that East New York depot has the B40,45 and now the 78 is it possible to do some restructuring of service maybe? For example combining the 78 and the Ralph Avenue/Broadway/Willamsburg Bridge Plaza sections to for a complete Ralph avenue bus route, while the 45 or even the B65 could be extended to Broadway junction via the eastnew york avenue section of the B40 route. Is it a possibilty or is a pipe dream?
With the recent anouncement that the suplus would go back in to the system and would mean about 700 more trips(from what I heard) for trains and more cars will be needed, will the M train finally be returned to Ninth Avenue on the B line during the middays?
Not likely because of the very low ridership south of Broad st although Iam in favor of it.
No, it's only for Rush Hour service where possible
I have three questions. One why did the #2 and#3 lines exchange brooklyn terminals. Why did they also change the terminals of the # and #5 in brooklyn? Last, I was standing up at new lots avenue one day and I realized that people were waiting for the # 4 to come out of the yard while lettin #3trains leave? Would it be more sensible to let the #4 operate to New lots at all times or just during rush hours and have the #3 serve local at utica avenue? This is the same situaTION THAT I SEE ON THE Brighton line. I would like to know what is going on.
(why terminate #4 express at Utica or Q express at Brighton Beach and have locals continue?)
It has to do with the way the tracks are arranged. At Brighton Beach, the express tracks are next to each other inside the local tracks (as is usual). If an outbound local train terminated at BB, it would then have to cross both express tracks to get to the Manhattan-bound local track, blocking any express trains trying to pass through at the same time. But express trains on the inner tracks can switch back and forth without interfering with through service on the outer tracks, and that's what is done. The layout at Utica IRT is more complicated and I don't fully understand it, but for some reason it is also configured to reverse the express trains and send the locals through. (It may reflect a planned extension of the express tracks along another route?)
When the 4 goes to New Lots it runs local from Franklin to New Lots.
In 1967, when the Christie St. connector opened, the TA tried having the Brighton line express (D) run through to Coney Island and terminating the local trains (QJ and QB) at Brighton Beach. This arrangement only lasted a year or so before returning to the traditional arrangement of terminating the expresses at Brighton Beach and running the locals through to Coney Island. Undoubtedly the reason was that the expresses and locals had to cross over each other north of Brighton Beach.
Also, before 1967, Brighton Beach operated as an out-and-back terminal. There was no crossover between the two express tracks north of Brighton Beach, and the express trains turned in the layup tracks between Brighton Beach and Ocean Parkway.
And, the pre-1967 Bankers Specials (Brighton-Nassau) trains ran through to/from Coney Island, but they used the local track from Brighton Beach to the crossover south of Kings Highway, stopping at Neck Road and Avenue U.
That arrangement (D to Coney Island, QB and QJ to Brighton Beach) lasted until August 18, 1968, when these routes swapped terminals. The D did run all the way to Coney Island, making all local stops in Brooklyn, from 8:00 PM to 6:00 AM on weekdays and all day on weekends when the QJ ran only to Broad St. I still have a pamphlet which outlined changes taking effect on July 1 and August 18.
Also, prior to July 1, you had the NX terminating at Brighton Beach along with the QB and QJ. That must have been pretty interesting.
Especially with the latter coming in from the south end of the station, and the former from the north end....
-Hank
The express tracks have stub ends east of Utica Av, and also combine into a single middle track which comes out of the tunnel along Portal St. and abruptly ends at East New York Av. At one time there were plans for an IRT line to run down Utica Av. to Kings Hwy or Kings Plaza, I'm not sure which. Presumably this would have connected to the ends of those express tracks and come down Rochester Av, swinging around on East New York Av. to Utica.
If there is more information on the IRT Utica Av. line, I would like to know about it.
Thanks.
Bob Sklar
I wasn't sure if they ever planned to extend that branch of the IRT to Kings Plaza (the Flatbush line was considered, of course). That stub end must be well past Utica. It was the IND that was supposed to run down Utica.
I have heard that there are plans to rearrange the tracks to switch the express and local, but I haven't heard about it in a while.
Re: Service on Utica Ave ...
IND vs. IRT service would seem to make more since, i.e. two different lines serving the area to give folks a choice & avoid transfering at Jay Street (area) or Manhattan. With a transfer at Eastern Parkway & Utica folks could catch the 4 at the beginning. Sounds like a win win, why aren't they planning to do it ?
Oh yes, THEY don't want THOSE people being able to get to the Mall.
Mr t__:^)
The 1969 plan had the IRT extended down Utica Avenue to Flatbush Ave, running elevated once it got in the coastal flooding area. The Nostrand Avenue Line was also extended way down there. The Franklin Avenue interchange was proposed to be rebuilt. All these were from the original MTA plan, under which the suburbs got half the surplus from the city's TBTA tolls. Many of the improvements promised to the suburbs have been built.
Thanks Mark for your very good info on the proposed Utica Ave. IRT line and the also never finished Flatbush IRT line that was supposed to extent down Nostrand to the Gerristen Beach neighborhod (Just north of Sheepshead Bay).
Two things that may have prevented the extension of the Flatbush line was the fact that much of southern Brooklyn was former swamp land. Building and then reinforcing tunnel walls would have been a bitch. The second thing: at that time (1969) those more suburban-like neighborhoods (one-two family dewellngs) along the proposed routes would have fought tooth and nail to avoid the noise and loss of sunlight that would have come with an elevated line.
BTW, speaking of proposed TA projects, does anyone recall some years back a much discussed project of connecting the Brighton and Culver lines through some sort of shuttle service? I believe the line was proposed as a one or two track service and would have been built beneath Prospect Park to connect the 5th Ave stop on the "F" with the Prospect Park stop on the "D". Would have been a good idea since there was no real way to get to the F or D except to go all the way South to Coney Island or into Manhattan at West 4th. Anybody recall that proposal?
It came up again due to the Manhattan Bridge problem. The train would curve off from the Brighton north of Propsect Park station, go under the park and into the express tracks of the Culver. The Brighton would run non-stop to Jay Street/Borough Hall. The idea was to allow the Brighton to bypass the bridge. It was turned down because it only helped the Brighton, not the other lines threatened b the deterioration of the bridge.
> ... the fact that much of southern Brooklyn was former swamp land.
> Building and then reinforcing tunnel walls would have been a bitch.
This didn't stop Mayor Hylan from proposing a third subway system (this was before the IND proposition), part of which would have run UNDERGROUND in Brighton Beach and Sheepshead Bay. How this feat was going to be accomplished technologically was never made known, given the line's proximity to the Atlantic Ocean and the Bay.
This, and other tidbits, will be coming soon in the "Brief History of the IND" document I'm working on (slowly) for the line-by-line pages.
--Mark
I'm surprised that very little, if anything, about the Second System has ever appeared in print (except for the 2nd Ave. line and Flatbush Ave. extension). Even Building the Independent Subway makes no mention of the Second System.
I know about the NYTimes article summarized on this site; I'm hoping, later this month, to check out the microfilm of this article myself. Maybe I'll find something.
I do have information about a proposal Mayor Hylan made in 1922 that was the "precursor" to the IND, I guess. For example, he proposed a trunk line down Nostrand Ave in Brooklyn (I think - I don't have the info with me at present), then it turned west onto Emmons Ave, then ran via Emmons and Neptune Ave and Brighton Beach Ave to Surf Ave, to I guess, Stillwell Ave. This was an UNDERGROUND proposal. How he would have done this with the proximity of the tunnels to the Atlantic Ocean is anyone's guess. Submarines, maybe :)
He also proposed a 10th / Amsterdam Ave trunk line. That almost came to be, as we got an 8th Ave trunk instead.
--Mark
There was even a Flatbush Av line that ran the entire length of Flatbush Av. That is something that is needed.
Hylan's 1922 proposal had this line running all the way to Floyd Bennett field!
--Mark
The IND was supposed to be extended down Utica Ave to Ave U (there was no Kings Plaza at the time - interesting foresight, though). 4 tracks. I don't know about proposed stations.
The IRT Nostrand Ave line was supposed to be extended under Nostrand Ave to Voorhies Ave in Sheepshead Bay. 2 tracks. Flatbush/Nostrand was never intended to be its terminal, which explains why it doesn't have an island platform, but 2 side platforms.
--Mark
The Utica Ave. line was supposed to swing over and join the Nostrand Ave. line at Avenue U or thereabouts, and the two lines were to terminate at Voorhies Ave. It would have been an across-the-platform transfer from IRT to IND.
I saw the never-used shell at Utica Ave. while riding on the Fulton St. line in October.
> I saw the never-used shell at Utica Ave. while riding on the Fulton
> St. line in October.
You mean you went IN IT? Or you just saw the trackways in the roof of the Utica Ave station?
--Mark
Just for your information, I travel to Utica Ave. on the A on a fairly regular basis...there are double doors that lead to the shell of the never-completed Second System station. Occasionally, these doors are left open, and one can walk in and take a peek around...which I have done, and which I assume is what Steve B did.
Where are the double doors? I went to that station to have a look around and as far as I can tell they've covered up all the entrances from the station and mezzanine to the shell. They've even completely walled off what appears to be 2 pedestrian walkways that connected the 2 token booth areas (and if the utica ave. line existed, would have provided access from above). I presume these walkways were sealed off due to security reasons.
With the high ceilings, the shell's crossover and ramps to the platforms, it kind of resembles a scaled-down Herald Square station.
I saw the trackways in the roof or ceiling of the station. I've ridden on that line before, but thought nothing of it until I found out about the Second System on this website.
Sorry for the confusion. That station certainly does have a high ceiling, doesn't it?
Yes, it does. Then again, so does 7th Ave (Brooklyn) on the Brighton Line. And there are those 2 staircases that have been closed for years and years ... hmmm, I wonder :)
--Mark
For many years, my grandmother used to live at "The Junction"(Flatbush Ave and Nostrand Ave), so I was a regular user of the Flatbush line to go see her(I lived at Grand Army Plaza). From what I remember, I thought public complaints had alot to do with the #2 and #3 swapping destinations, because if you remember back in the 70's and 80's, the 2's and 5's used to get all the nice IRT equipment(i.e. Redbirds), while the 3's and 4's always seemed to be running less asthetically appealing cars.
Back in the 70s and early 80s, just about every piece of equipment looked the same - desecrated by graffiti.
I seem to remember that the Brooklyn Terminals have been swapped back and forth a few times. In the 60s the 2 went from Flatbush to Dyre, the 3 from New Lots to 145 St, the 5 from Utica to 241 St, WP Rd. and the 4 went from Flatbush Avenue rush hours and late nights. Then they switched it so the 5 went from Utica/Atlantic to Dyre, the 3 went from Flatbush to the new 148 St, the 2 went from New Lots to WP Rd., and the 4 still went to Flatbush rush hours and late nights. Then they switched the 2 and 3 to their current configuration and stopped the 5 from ever going to Brooklyn again, except during rush hours. The 4 now goes to Utica and New Lots (late) and the 2 always goes from WP Rd to Flatbush. Probably in 5 years they'll switch something again. My great aunt told me that for her switching the 2 to WP Rd and the 5 to Dyre was the way she remembered it being in the 1940s, so to her it was a return to normal. Go figure...
The track that is located between Myrtle Avenue and Broadway junction is just sitting there. with the need for an increase in service will the middle track be used the same way as the section betwwen Marcy and myrtle?
Is there a 1999 New York Subway Calender this year??? Just curious....
Yes ... picked one up in October at Branford. The TA museum has 'em 2
P.S. BUT there will be NO "Mega Bus Calendar" this year.
Mr t__:^)
The 1999 New York City Subways Calendar can be ordered from:
Newkirk Images
PO Box 237
Dept C
Copaigue, NY 11726-0237
Mine's hanging above my desk here at work...
Can someone verify if there will be a new 1999 Bus Calender,
I am also looking for last years Bus Calender--Can anyone help me out
Steve (thank you)
Sorry, but no Mega Bus Calendar this year (1999).
For back issues & other comments contact Andy: agyanks1@aol.com
Mr t__:^)
What images are on the '99 calendar?
Are there any modern-day units (built after, say, 1964 such as the R32), or are they Q-type and Low-V images?
What images are on the '99 calendar?
Are there any modern-day units (built after, say, 1964 such as the R32 and the R40), or are they Q-type and Low-V images?
Also, does Newkirk have a toll-free or other telephone number for orders, or a web site?
Cover: 3rd Ave El @ South Ferry ~1946
Front Page: BMT ads for green hornet, multisection, bluebird, Third Ave El @ 161st St in 1956, R32 cars on NY Central Mott Haven Bronx
January: R32s @ Bay 50th (B) 1980
February: BMT Q 1622 & A/B types @ Fresh Pond Yard 1968
March: Low V's in front of Yankee Stadium 1962
April: NYCTS MUDC 3rd Avenue El @ 34th St. 1955
May: WF R33/R36 lead car 9624 @ Willets Pt. 1964 (a Doug Grotjahn photo which I think we have on the web site)
June: SOAC cars @ Ft Hamilton Pky (Sea Beach) 1974
July: R7 1537 on KK @ Williamsburg Bridge (with bridge dedication plaque), 1968
August: R12/14 cars on 3rd Ave El in Bronx @156th St. 1972
September: R1/9 cars on Rockaway Trestle 1972
October: Q types on Myrtle El @ Jay ST. 1969
November: R62 cars on the #1 @ 207th St. 1992
December: Snow Plow 20187 (IRT Low-V) on Sea Beach line, 1965
Newkirk's web site is at:
http://www.netstuff.com/
Click on HOBBIES and scroll down for the NYC Subway merchandise.
This is NOT Newkirks web site...when you order the calender from these guys...ALL references to Newkirk are obliterated!! Just so you know.....
And the $17 price is almost twicw the advertised!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oops Sorry
They're only asking $14 for the 1999, which is still a $5 markup.
FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO ARE IN MANHATTAN, I USUALLY CAN FIND THE CALENDAR AT "THE RED CABOOSE" (MODEL RAILROAD STORE). IT IS LOCATED ON 45TH ST. BETW. 5TH & 6TH AVES. IN MIDTOWN.THEY SOMETIMES HAVE BACK ISSUES AT REDUCED PRICES.
Thanks for the correction!
Netstuff must be buying bulk and selling it as their own, along with a $5 markup.
Best to follow Todd's posting and buy from the real source:
>>>Posted by Todd Glickman on Wed Dec 2 12:41:07 1998
The 1999 New York City Subways Calendar can be ordered from:
Newkirk Images
PO Box 237
Dept C
Copaigue, NY 11726-0237 <<<
To save time...How much IS the calender from Newkirk? Including s&h,tax,etc...??????
Today's papers are all reporting a Pataki news conference announcing an even-bigger-than-expected ($379M) MTA operating surplus, and his plans to spend it on service improvements including more cleaning and maintenance, and the big surprise: after the new car delivery, 'an additional 120 cars, previously scheduled to be taken out of service, would be refurbished...the combination of new and rebuilt cars would be used to expand subway service by 330 weekday trips by the end of next year.' (NYT, p. B4.) I assume this refers to the IRT redbird fleet! Any word on details?
According to Steve, they are going to some sort of overhaul on the R32 cars including putting in new floors.Maybe the Redbirds are includedin the overhaul somehow.They seem to be very reliable.
Unlike the stainless steel R-32s, the Redbirds are prone to corrosion because of their carbon steel skin. I got a good look at some of them while in the city in October, and in some cases, the corrosion was plainly visible beneath the red paint, especially beneath the windows. Time to break out the Bondo! Some are in better shape than others, though. I still don't see why a group of Redbirds with very little or no corrosion could be hand-selected and retained.
Speaking of floors, I did notice a few R-32s with what appeared to be detached floor panels around the doorways. Heck, I still remember their original tile floors!
Redbirds? Bondo? Look at the 8600 (#6 line) and 8700 (#5 line) R29's they're Mondo Bondo! Also big blobs of rust at the bottom corners of the doors. Funny, because it isn't every car. Some of the R33s are in mint condition, also a number of the R28s (7860-7959) as well are in very good shape, especially the interiors.
They ought to repaint the ceilings on the 9100 and 9200 series R33s - the all-white looks kind of tacky. At least paint the grilles and blower housings beige, like they did on the #7. And the all-beige treatment on the R26 and R28 is boss - gives off a kind of R38-ish glow inside.
And DO refurbish our R32s, R38s and especially our Slant R40s - the workhorses of the "B" division - long may they roll!
Wayne
You quoted only part of the article-- the rest of that paragraph gives more useful information:
"Included on the mass transit shopping list laid out by Pataki Tuesday were 112 new subway cars, which would be acquired in the next 12 months. An additional 120 cars, previously scheduled to be taken out of service, will be refurbished" (New York Times)
Almost certainly the 112 cars are the future R143 order. I've heard that the R40 fleet would be the ones being refurbished as well as the new floor project on the R32's.
-dave
Are they eliminating any cars besides the R33/36s when the 142/143 order comes through?
With all the new subway cars coming to NYCTA {R-142/R143}. Will the present fleet of about 5800 cars increase or decrease? With ridership being up shouldn't they have more cars for the future?
R26, R28, and R29 will also be going. They'll start with the absolute worst of them, going by body deterioration. Unlike when they scrapped the older R types, a lot of the equipment on the current cars will be salvaged, since a lot of it is universal to the majority of the fleet. I actually wouldn't be surprised to see them leaving CI on trailers, because the trucks are rebuilt on an almost daily basis.
But the determining factor in 'what goes first' will be body deteriation.
-Hank
Today I worked at Hoyt Street Brooklyn IRT working gates. I saw many redbirds. The 78xx, 90xx, 91xx are in bad shape- rust holes near the windows, door sills, door frames. Some looked decent but most have served their purpose. Let them repose in subway Car Paradise-save some for fan trips, of course!
The 8570-8599, 86xx, and some of the 87xx are just as bad! The 85xx and 86xx even have faded redbird paint. It's hit or miss with the R26 and R28 - I have seen quite a few R28 that seem to have no rust at all (they're the ones you don't like the paint scheme on, the all-beige interiors with no white). A classic example of this one is #7870-7871 and #7896-7897. Those with the least rust should be fit to ride. Otherwise, send 'em out.
Wayne
It's true. I keep hearing that the R-36's would be the first to go, but even though they are the oldest rebuilding job, they are the newest car bodies of the redbirds. Since they are the IRT counterpart of the R-32's and the BMT counterparts of the R-26-33's-- the R-27/30's are gone, they should get rid of the older cars, and redo the 36's real nice like the 32's, and paint them plain silver, or even cover them with some sort of stainless steel or aluminum covering as was done to an R-16 in a pilot for a proposed rebuilding of those cars.
379M is a heck of a lot of money. I'm very happy about the proposed service improvements as well as the existing improvements. I used to wish for this sort of thing years ago. I almost wish I was still living in NYC.
does anyone, steve in particular, have any detailed info. the papers were not too clear. do we know for definite what is being bought(buses and trains) and refurbished? also, who is being hired, are they all cleaners?
good job Gov. Pataki!!
WHY NO MEGA BUS CALENDAR THIS YEAR (1999)?
IS THERE A CALENDAR ABOUT THE LIRR FOR 1999? WHERE CAN I GET ONE?
Sorry no calendar this year (99), but you can get back issues.
For more specific info contact agyanks1@aol.com
Mr t__:^)
Could someone please describe the area for the LIRR/subway in Penn Station once you walkin from that main hallway. I can't remember it!
Though I'll be making a return visit next week, I need a little help!
Penn Station is layed out like an enormous H (trackwise). At the lowest level, are the Amtrak, NJT, LIRR tracks. There are 21 of them. Platforms are not uniformly distributed, some being 'island platforms' while some have access on one side only.
Up one level you have the LIRR waiting area with a very large train announcement board and a long row of ticket windows. Running East-West is a long corridor with merchants lining one wall for the entire length. The East end of that corridor ends at the 7th Ave Subway and the west end of the corridor, at the 8th Ave. subway.
One level up is the Amtrak/NJT waiting/ticket area. There are other merchants scattered around the perimeter. To the east is the exit to 7th Avenue and Madison Square Garden. To the west is the exit to 8t Avenue.
I hope that helps....
Penn Station is layed out like an enormous H (trackwise). At the lowest level, are the Amtrak, NJT, LIRR tracks. There are 21 of them running east-west. Platforms are not uniformly distributed, some being 'island platforms' while some have access on one side only. To the east, trains pass under the east river into Sunnyside Yard and onto the Amtrak Mainline to New England or the LIRR mainline. To the west, under the Hudson River to New Jersey
Up one level you have the LIRR waiting area with a very large train announcement board and a long row of ticket windows. Running East-West is a long corridor with merchants lining one wall for the entire length. The East end of that corridor ends at the 7th Ave Subway and the west end of the corridor, at the 8th Ave. subway. Both subway lines run north-south.
One level up is the Amtrak/NJT waiting/ticket area. There are other merchants scattered around the perimeter. To the east is the exit to 7th Avenue and Madison Square Garden. To the west is the exit to 8t Avenue.
I hope that helps....
There have been many changes in the last few years. A new central corridor on the LIRR level, midway between 7th and 8th Aves., connects all nine LIRR tracks (13 thru 21) and provides elevator access for those unable to use stairs. The new 34th Street entrance is next to the IRT 1/2/3/9 subway entrance, and provides both escalator and elevator access between the street and the LIRR level. A west end LIRR concourse, west of the 8th Ave A/C/E subways, opened in the late 1980's.
BTW, all platforms serve two tracks except for LIRR track 17, which has its own platform. Looks like an island platform, but Track 18 trains do not open on the Track 17 side.
Does anyone know when N Train Service over the Manhattan Bridge will be reinstated?
If you know, please e-mail me at NYYR2C00l@aol.com. Thanks.
I have a question concerning the Orion bus design. I noticed that buses here in Norfolk, VA where I'm at now have buses that look identical to the Orions, but according to the placard, they were built by North American Bus Industries. Are buses made to set designs?
Maybe it's another name of the company. I know it's also called Bus Industries of America (BIA). Up here in the train clubs, someone had pictures of them, and they were Orions. I havent been down there in 6 years and didn't know they got newer buses than the 700 Flxibles. When I was in Norfolk St. '84-86, it was the 300 Rohr Flxibles, the 400 Grummans and the 500 35ft RTS's, all 8 cylinder, and then there were the 100 Bluebirds and 200 minibuses (didn't know the manufacturer). I recently saw a picture of a 60's old look (they continued to be made after the advent of the fishbowls!), that said TRT (I always wondered what they had before).
I had been wanting to get a closer look at those Orions to compare them to NYC's, but I don't know when I'll ever be able to get down there again. (I hear they're still tearing down what's left of the city, and are doubling the Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel.)
Well here at this depot we have Orions diesels from Sept '97 and CNG model Vs from Aug '98. The mfg plate inside simply says Orion Bus Industries Inc ... Oriskany, NY.
P.S. only the diesel has a Orion plate on the front, the CNGs don't adv who made them outside anywhere.
P.P.S. The parent company is at Mississauga, Ontario. In the trades the only difference in adv is Inc. vs. Ltd.
Mr t__:^)
the parent company is western star trucks holding corp. it should be noted most bus manufacturers do not put their logo on bus when dealing with nyct or dot and thats understandable.
I recall reading somewhere that Orion was bought by a subsidiary of Volvo....
-Hank
That was Nova that is now Volvo, i.e. GMC/TMC -RTS
Mr t__:^)
Volvo tried to sell buses in the USA in the late 80's. Madison Wis had some. They did not stay in the USA though but did recently buy into Nova.
Orion is and has been a Canadian company. It marketed buses competed in up State NY as BIA or Bus industries of America to meet buy America regs se by Congress.
They almost did not survive a few years ago and were bought by Western Star. The VA buses were probably finished in NY by BIA
that is american icarus. philadelpia has those buses too.
I'm only in my mid 20's but I have been riding the subways all my life. When I started riding the trains I remember seeing cieling fans in the cars. Does anyone know when these type of cars were phased out. I can also remeber seeing in some stations the remains of old vending machines on the platforms. When were these machines taken out? I also remember the old token booths that were wooden and pretty much dark inside. I'm sure everybody remebers the awful grafitti trains of 70's and 80's. Another thing I can recall was seeing an old fashioned train run on the 7 line as part of a nostolgia trip. Did this train run only once or was it a weekly thing.
What are some of your favorite memories of subway, things that we don't see anymore, things that were rather symbolic of the subway system?
The last cars to have ceiling fans were the R-10s, R-12s, and R-14s. All prewar equipment had them, too. The last of the prewar cars, the R-7s and R-9s, were retired in early 1977. The R-12s and R-14s were gone by the mid-80s, and the R-10s made their last runs in 1989.
The nostalgia train on the 7 is the museum Lo-V train. Fantrips are scheduled periodically during the year. Someday I'll be in New York when one of these trips is scheduled.
I remember the graffiti epidemic all too well. It got to the point where it bordered on the repulsive. Now if they could only do something about the scratchiti...
Memories? Too many to list, but here are a few: the blue doors and side destination signs illuminated in green on the R-32s when they were new. The R-1/9s with their throbbing air compressors and pneumatic door sounds as the conductor worked the trigger boxes; the moaning, groaning, and whining of their traction motors; the thrill of riding in the first car with no headlights and seeing only tunnel lights. The R-10s when they ruled the A line and thundered along the express run up Central Park West. BMT standards on the Canarsie line.
>The last cars to have ceiling fans were the R-10s, R-12s, and R-14s. All
prewar equipment had them, too. The last of the prewar cars, the R-7s
and R-9s, were retired in early 1977. The R-12s and R-14s were gone by
the mid-80s, and the R-10s made their last runs in 1989.
All equipment up to and including some early R-40 Slants had ceiling fans. The equipment that still exists has been upgraded to A/C except for the R-33 cars (single units) assigned to the Flushing line.
>The nostalgia train on the 7 is the museum Lo-V train. Fantrips are
scheduled periodically during the year. Someday I'll be in New York when one of these trips is scheduled.
The Nostolgia train is not made up of Lo-V's. You are thinking of the once a year Fan trip sponsered by the Railway Preservation people.
BMT D types are ususally the cars used for the Nostolgia train trips.
My fondest memory of the subway is the sounds made by the motors of a Lo-V train.
R-38s 4140-4149 were the first air-conditioned cars, and I can still remeber the looks of people getting on for the first time back in 1967 (happy faces on the E train!) Also going to the World's Fair on the R-33/36 cars with the picture windows and the lower window doors (gone when they did the rebuild) and the blue and white paint job (the TA did a lot better job in paint color selection for the interior and exterior in the 1960s than the MTA managed in the 70s -- remember the yellow/green and gray color combo for the insides of the cars when they went to the blue and white exteriors? That was a color scheme that almost cried out "Graffiti Me!")
The lower window doors were NOT REMOVED during the rebuilding!!
Okay, okay, some of them were, but there are plenty of Flushing R-33/36 cars that still have the low-window doors.
Speaking of these cars, please see my other post regarding the Flushing cars . . .
> The Nostalgia train is not made up of Lo-V's. You are thinking of
> the once a year Fan trip sponsered by the Railway Preservation
> people.
Ahhh, but there was ONE Nostalgia Train trip of the Lo-Vs on the Rockaway Line on 7/06/1996. Every once in a while, the Transit Museum attempts to use different equipment. Remember that last year's D-type trip to Canarsie was REALLY supposed to be a D-Type trip to Lefferts Blvd, with a cross-the-platform transfer to the BU cars. The BU cars weren't used because of asbestos on the car bottoms.
--Mark
One memory that I will NEVER have is the trip that happenned way back in 1975 while I was in High School.
Here it is: The ERA sponsored trip of BMT "D" Types over the original street trackage of the South Brooklyn Railway along MacDonald Ave! The trip went from (I think) the Ninth Ave. station adjacent to the 36th street yard. Then it proceeded among AUTO traffic along the SBK trolley tracks to the Coney Island yard at Ave. X.
Now, if anyone who answers to these posts was among the riders that day (no need to give away your age of course), please feel free to post a message to let those of us (the unfortunate ones) know of what that trip was like. I for one am interested in hearing your story.
That trip was typical of many great fantrips that used to be run by fanclubs like the ERA and The Polytechnic Institute of Brooklyn (anyone out there from Poly?), that actually used varied equipemt and ran on interseting routed for many many hours!
Todays trips are mostly "canned". Does anyone know if the ERA does anything in this vein nowadays?
The ERA SBK trip covered 9th Ave lower level, 36th St Yd, SBK via Davidson Pipe yard, the SBK Interchange (at the scrap yard) to the NYCH yard area via 2nd Ave and the Bush Terminal building famous corner turn and 1st Ave trackage.
Later it went via SBK under the Culver Shuttle, under McDonald and down to Coney Yard.
BTW:
I have photos of this trip - which along with my hundreds of culver and Eastern Div El collection (old lampposts, signs, wooden platforms) - I am waiting to buy a scanner to scan... Anyone (Dave?) can give me experienced viewpoint of whether a 600x1200 optical (9600x9600 software) unit is useable? Any specific models recommended?
> I have photos of this trip - which along with my hundreds of
> culver and Eastern Div El collection (old lampposts, signs,
> wooden platforms) - I am waiting to buy a scanner to scan...
> Anyone (Dave?) can give me experienced viewpoint of whether a
> 600x1200 optical (9600x9600 software) unit is useable? Any
> specific models recommended?
If you are really serious about it, and you have slides (or negatives), I'd look into buying a dedicated film/slide scanner (not a flatbed with transparency adaptor). I use the Minolta Quickscan 35. The Nikon ones are good too (a friend has the Nikon Super Coolscan). The Minolta does 36-bit color at 2820 dpi (hardware). The picture quality is 10x better than from a print for two reasons: A) flatbed scanners (at least the one I have) aren't as good, and B) Prints suck compared to the original medium. A good slide/film scanner will set you back from $900-$1500 unless you go top of the line...
In the meantime, I'm willing to scan stuff for you. :-)
-Dave
Actually, I have a problem with a part of the negatives: certain rolls have changed color! Have you seen this effect? The prints are OK.
I will probably correct some of the material with photo-editing SW.
Thanks for the offer to scan. I'll figure out what I am doing before my next visit to the US in the spring/summer.
Regards.
I'll have to dig out my video of Class of '44 and verify the car numbers on the Triplex train used in that movie. Chances are the same three units which survive today were the ones they used. An oddity: the train was empty as it swept past the camera. Does anyone have any idea which station it pulls into?
BTW, I graduated from high school in 1975.
HI there...
I'm an NYU student, and I am doing a project/paper regarding the New York City Subway system, and how it is presented(or misrepresented, if that be the case) as a tourist sight. I'd love to hear some insight into whether people think of the subway as a New York tourist sight, memories or impresssions regarding the subway that were presented from movies/TV, ideas, etc. Anything you might have to say. Thank you!!!
Cari Kessler
Read the front page of today's NYT Metro section.
Cari,
I've been a resident of NYC most of my life. I was out west between 1964 and 1982 and during that time, whenever the NY subway was mentioned in any newspaper, TV show or movie, it was nearly always a cheap sensationalist crime story. My cousin from Las Vegas, visiting NY for the first time in the summer of 1997, wouldn't even ride the subway with me!
I can't deny that these crimes take place, but the subway's image definitely suffers from this cheap publicity, while petty criminals and terrorists are given exposure which they do not deserve.
Those tourists who can see beyond this probably would think of the subway as an attraction. Although things have improved since the early 1980's, they are still likely to find it "dirty".
Bob Sklar
I stand corrected. I was referring to ceiling fans whose blades were in plain view. It's true: all other non-air conditioned cars had ceiling fans, too. As for fantrips and nostalgia trains, I tend to lump them all together.
All prewar equipment had spur-cut bull and pinion gears which caused the moaning, groaning, and whining most of us are familiar with. The R-1/9s were music to my ears, as were the BMT standards, lack of route signs notwithstanding.
Ahhh, those beautiful bull gears! A jam-packed R-6, most likely #1277 or maybe #1233, with the battleship grey G.E. fans [the ones with the curly blades] whirling overhead, pulling out Queens Plaza on the "F" line (with that little PFSSS coming from the valve under the transverse seat), getting up to a full-throated F-sharp (above middle C) in the bypass...or a non-A/C Slant R40, half of its lights out (maybe #4246 or #4268 or #4314), soot stains around the fan housings,
the end doors opened up, roaring along between Roosevelt and 71st Avenue...Ah yes, I remember it well...
Wayne
Speaking of the R-6s...
I had yet another strange subway dream last night in which I was at Van Wyck Blvd. and several E trains of R-6s whined their way along the express tracks. What's so strange about that? Well, for starters, the station was outdoors, and the trains were running left-handed! I was standing on what would be the Manhattan-bound platform, and an F train of R-46s HEADED FOR 179TH St. pulled in.
Just a few nights ago, I had another dream in which an old-time D train pulled into the station I was at (don't know which one), and the first car was R-1 #282. No headlights, one large pane of glass in the storm door, the doors opened and closed as they always did, and the train moaned and groaned as it accelerated. It moved, too! And I was loving it! Admittedly, nothing strange there.
Then there was another weird dream in which I was waiting for an A train at 59th St. for a nice joyride up CPW. Much to my surprise, a prewar A train pulled in, with the first car sporting a drop sash window in the storm door! Huh? The R-1/9s, as we all know, didn't have such windows in their storm doors. Other than that, the first car had no headlights, and everything else was normal (doors, moaning and groaning, etc.).
Other dreams: being on an express which had stopped on the express track at a local station and jumping down to the trackbed and scrambling up onto the station platform; no express tracks on the 8th Ave. line, just trackways; trains being signed for one route and showing up on another.
I'm usually good for one or two such dreams per month. Of course, the R-10s have appeared in my dreams, too.
One of my more vivid dreams involved an accident between an "E" (R-6) and an "F" (R44) train near 169th Street station - on the express tracks. In another one I saw an "O" train, an R42, with a lime green sign. The "O" had a slash through it, like the Scandinavian "O".
I belive the station was Bay Parkway on the West End line. I have also had dreams of IND stations with wrong color tiles (i.e. light blue at Roosevelt Avenue), stations that don't exist, R-6s, R-10s etc.
My most recent dream (about two weeks ago) was a mundane dream of a Slant R40 ride on the "L" train, with me getting off at Lorimer Street and walking up the stairs straight into a bar! (a place I Never Go).
Wayne
Unfortunately, the slant R-40s have never appeared in any of my dreams. Nor have the BMT standards. The R-1/9s and R-10s usually take center stage. Here's a really weird dream I had once: Chicago's 4000-series cars running on the Concourse line. And another: Flushing trains running on the surface of Roosevelt Ave. near Shea Stadium, with pantographs. They had horns which blasted a B flat major triad in root position (how's your music theory?), then the B flat would slide down a half-step to A - kind of like the horn of the train which runs over Wile E. Coyote in those Road Runner cartoons (only it goes from E flat to D). Then there's the 8th Ave. line running on the street surface at 23rd St. with I-beams sticking up out of the street; trains running on the street without track, making for a very noisy, bumpy ride.
I'd say my ultimate dream (or nightmare) is a ride on a train that doesn't stop anywhere; it just keeps going and going and going. Finally, you just want to scream "Let me off this train!!!" Then the alarm clock goes off....
"B flat major triad in root position" -- Bb-D-F-Bb . . . in other words, a Bb Chord in root . . . yes, I know my music theory (to a certain extent -- I am also a violinist and sax man).
Anyway, I also have strange subway dreams sometimes, but one that stood out happened a few months ago.
I was on the #7 train on a Friday evening. I remember checking my watch, and it said 18:33 (6:33 PM -- my watch was on 24-hour, and it's also like that in reality).
The stops were all out of sequence (the stop before Main Street was 8th Avenue) and the entire Flushing Line was underground. The train I was on consisited of Redbirds, but the last two cars were very old (can't remember what kind--probably LoV's or something -- something a *little* before my time) and the interior walls were painted turquoise or teal, and the cars had incandecent lights. The rest of the train was Redbirds, but the air conditioning units were re-replaced with the fans, which were painted black. The ceilings were white. Although the train no longer had air conditioning, it still felt air conditioned. I also remember a Caribbean or African festival of some sort and in celebration, the interior of the first two cars (Redbirds) were decorated in Christmas-type lighting (but were colored red, brown, green, and yellow). The lights were run above the windows and the main interior lights were turned off.
But wait -- there's more!
Later on in that dream, I was in the Port Authority bus terminal and it was around midnight. The bus gate assignments were all changed for some reason, and I had to get a bus leaving from Gate 551 (there are no 500-series gates in the PA). But the most amazing thing was how the terminal was set up.
The bus ticketing area was the same, but the large set of escalators that go up to the mezzanine was completely different.
First of all, it was positioned differently. Instead of being almost parrallel to the ticketing area, it was facing almost perpendicular, and the 8th Avenue exit was further to the left.
The mezzanine was at a much higher level than it really is. In addition, at the top of the escalators, was a HUGE waterfall (absolutely collosal) which was where the Hudson News Stand would be, and there was a extremely large white wall, lined with gothic stained glass windows which were MIND BOGGLING IN SIZE. Each of the windows was a bus gate (single-numbered) and between them was a small water fall (maybe four feet tall). Piped-in choir music was also present. It was almost like heaven opened up (I could not see the ceiling -- only an extremely brilliant white blaze).
I also had a lot of trouble finding the 500-series gates (I finally found them -- behind and to the left of the water fall).
When I got to gate 551 (the lounge was carpeted and dimly-lit, almost like an airport lounge), all I could see were RTS buses with green stripes (like Green Bus Lines buses), but they belonged to a Connecticut transit operator. Each of the buses were also packed. My last thought in that dream was,
"How the hell are all these people going to survive a trip to Connecticut on a packed RTS transit bus?!"
P.S. -- This is not my only transit dream!!!!!
My favorite memory of the subway system is the graffiti which covered the outside of the trains. I know a lot of people didn't like the graffiti epidemic, but it brings me back to the early 80's which was when I was growing up and it brings back a lot of good memories from then.
Some of my favorite memories:
R16 cars on the EE and GG lines; R10s in general, mostly on the A, tracking down the R42s when new (and taking their numbers), riding the Jamaica line on R27/R30s,
getting stuck for an hour and a half on an R-6-3 ("E" line, between 50th Street and 7th Avenue, Nov. 29, 1968; car #991; we were ROASTING), seeing the R44s for the first time, THEN seeing R44 #124 covered cab to blind end and roof-line to sill by the handiwork of one "Killer I" (in black, flourescent yellow, orange, red and white);
my first rides on the Culver Shuttle (1968), and the Fulton Street line (April 1969), getting a short ride in a cab courtesy of one of my father's friends (Dyre Avenue line, August 1963), my first ride on the Canarsie line (August 8, 1964), the same day, an express run on the "N" - D-type Triplexes, fans a-buzzing (I revsited this on Oct.18 1998), my first R32 (Nov.23, 1964 - "QB" line), my first Slant R40 (August 3, 1968), and on and on...
Wayne //mrSlantR40//
Well, I could give such a long post on all the many and great memories of riding the New York City subway and other transit systems, but that would probably be the basis of a book based upon my own lifetime experiences. However, I will personally say that the most influential and one sole profound aspect of myself becoming a lifelong avid transit buff, when firmly established at the young age of four, were definitely the R-10's operating on the IND "A" line (eventually to my own personal amazement and fascination).
The R-10's are my all-time favorite subway cars, which to this day I still considered them a true classic and very memorable fleet for my own personal experiences and enjoyment in riding and photographing; and the "A" Washington Heights-8th Avenue Express is hands down my all-time favorite transit route, where I have had the most exciting and thrilling adventures as a passenger.
On many occasions, I would really go out of my own way in riding and photographing the R-10's where ever they were being assigned and operated on whatever line (especially on the "A" line) no matter what the situation and timeframe they (and myself included) were. But after their retirement of forty years in service during the fall of 1989, I personally thought that the true excitement and joy in riding any subway line since then had vanished forever.
I truly have so many fond and wonderful memories of the R-10's; and to this date still, I dearly miss them all being operated in revenue service. The once wide-eyed excitement and fun in riding the New York subway today for me personally is no longer in existence today, and I am now simply oblivious of anything that is happening now or for plans in the future. Although the R-38's now assigned to the "A" line would considered okay in my opinion, but that route is now a complete stranger to myself without even the presence of the R-10's operating on any portion of that line's tracks.
Finally, there is one big and important connection between my birthdate of October 16 and the R-10's. On Sunday, October 16, 1977 (my 19th birthday), I had witnessed perhaps the very last time in which each and every "A" train operating on that day's assigned scheduled fleet was an R-10. During the next four days, it was a mixture of cars used including the very *cantankerous* R-44's, and on Thursday, October 20, 1977, the slanted R-40's (as newly assigned replacements) pushed the R-10's off the "A" and sent them over to the "CC" line, thus ending almost 29 full years of dominance and rule on the former line that they called *home* since their beginning there on Saturday, November 20, 1948.
-William
("Mr. R-10")
Hello again, Mr. R-10!!
As I've said before, I feel the same way about the R-10s as you do. That goes for the A line as well. The A line will never be the same without them. That's where they belonged. Everything about them was unique: the air compressors, door sounds, door speed (fastest doors of any car, IMHO), and of course, the unmistakeable racket they raised as they rocketed along CPW. The R-38s are OK, but they'll never take the place of the R-10s. Small wonder, then, that I would stubbornly wait for an A at 42nd St. on Saturdays from 1967 to 1970. That plus the fact that I refused to take an E at any cost, even if the slant R-40s did look cool (sorry, Wayne). Little wonder, again, that I took as many express trips along CPW as I did whenever time permitted (never missed a bus from Port Authority, though I came close once).
One observation: I believe the A line began to be "invaded" by other cars prior to October 1977. I rode a southbound A from 59th to 42nd on the famous runaway racetrack on July 28, 1976, and it was made up of either R-44s or R-46s. At the same time, there was an AA or CC of R-10s on the local track.
Incidentally, no one has figured out my 8AVEXP license plates yet. I'm still waiting for someone to come up to me and say something like, "That's the A train in New York, isn't it?" or "That's a subway route in New York, right?"
I think one of the fondest memories I have occurred back in the spring/summer of 1991 when I was in HS. I happened to be in the Ozone Park area of Queens exploring the remnants of the LIRR Rockaway Beach Line. Later on that day I decided to hop on the C train to Rockaway Park and catch the Q35 bus back to Brooklyn. As luck would have it, what should arrive at Rockaway Blvd but a full 8-car train of R-27 redbirds. Got on board and once the train cleared the interlockings at Rockaway Blvd and Liberty Aves, the motorman cranked the motors up big-time. I beleive we hit about 45-55 MPH once the train started crossing Jamaica Bay.
Back then, those cars were on the verge of having their death warrants signed by a supervsior at Jay Street, new paint job notwithstanding. Against this was a backdrop of some very loud rumblings that the C train would go the way of the dodo bird in the next round of budget-cuts. Needless to say it was heartening to be aboard a freshly repainted set of redbirds with all windows and storm doors braced open to cath the seabreezes off of Jamaica Bay. (No form of air conditioning could match a fresh salt-laden breeze being caught on a train pushing 50 MPH).
This scene would not last much longer of course. A year later weekday C service out to Rock Park was replaced by rush hour-only A express service and the redbird R27s were out of service for good in May of 1993.
Now it's almost 10 years later and I can still recall distincively hearing the warble of 30-year old traction motors as a train of soon-to-be-gone Redbirds made one of it's last dashes to the Ocean.
One of my fondest subway memories would have to include the times I spent riding the Franklin Avenue Shuttle during the time that the R-11s were that lines' primary rolling stock.
This was around 1975-76, the height of the period where all manner of rolling stock was popping up on different lines of the system. Unfortunately, it was also the era of much of the more destructive "graffiti art" that permeated the NYCTA.
Another fond memory that I should mention was my "accidental" ride on the SOAC test train of fall 1974. I recall that these futuristic looking cars (there were only two) had a huge "BART-like" bay window/motorman's cabin, and dimensions of what would later be the R-44/46 series of cars. The interiors were too awesome for NYC subway service as the seating was that of commuter rail lines (airline-type seats), and both cars had full carpeting throughout. Also one car even sported a "coffee table" where commuters could sit around this small table and chat, drink coffee or read a paper. It was pretty wild to think that the US Department of Transportation had commissioned Boeing to tote these cars around urban transit systems when their interior decor was certainly not made for the "daily-grind" of most major cities' subway systems. It was fun nonetheless to at least have ridden the Brighton line for a day in "luxury".
One of the best memories I have is sitting on a Q type at Metropolitan Avenue on a mild October in the late afternoon toward the end of the evening rush.this was before that gigantic warehouse was built and the area was covered with fields.Q Type windows opened from the bottom and one could sit facing forward with the window open and gentle breezes blowing accross the field in the fading Autumn twilight.In those Halcyon Days many parts of Brooklyn still had a bucolic atmosphere.
A particularly good memory of mine is Oct. 3, 1969 - the last run for the Q types up and down the "MJ" line (Myrtle Avenue El) - my parents and I made three trips up and down the line that evening. We even got some souvenirs (lite bulbs, a fan, a leather strap)
Wayne
You were lucky for an R-27 to push even 40 back in the "days" considering Pitkin yards miserable MDBFs and dead motor syndrome. They did have a nice whine, especially the WH R-30s when you could hear over their tremendous flat wheel conditions. When I worked there I asked for the TEN by name; anything else went to the yard.
Believe it or not, some of the grafitti was pretty imaginative.
I remember, as a kid, there was some writing on one of the
trains that said "Welcome to Hell" with some pretty intricate
artwork that my brother and I can remember to this day. I think
it was on the #7 Flushing line. Also the gum and candy machines in the underground stations were symbols of a bygone
era. Keep up the memories!!!
One memory I have is as a kid going to the Bortnx Zoo by subway. One day we were subway to meet my father at Times Square. A train pulled in. My mother said it was our train and I said it was not. She said it was and to get one. I was right! We pulled into 138 and Grand Concourse and then I got the I'm sorry. After that I was never doubted again. She thought that I did not want ride an "old Train" (lo-V), and now I love those trains, but wanted a "new train" (R17? or whatever).
One memory I have is as a kid going to the Bronx Zoo by subway. One day we were subway to meet my father at Times Square. A train pulled in. My mother said it was our train and I said it was not. She said it was and to get one. I was right! We pulled into 138 and Grand Concourse and then I got the I'm sorry. After that I was never doubted again. She thought that I did not want ride an "old Train" (lo-V), and now I love those trains, but wanted a "new train" (R17? or whatever).
I remember that one! I think it was #9645 - it had a volcano, skulls, a devil with a pitchfork (pretty authentic-looking), all kinds of flames, it covered one whole side of the car. They had cut out the windows when I saw it; still it was pretty impressive. NOTE this is not in any way condoning the defacement of public property; merely a commentary on the graffiti example.
Wayne
I remember seeing a train covered with graffiti similar to the one about "welcome to Hell". Only this read Happy Halloween. The whole side of the train was covered with a Halloween scene. The scene included an orange sky, haunted house, a black tree without leaves, a black cat sitting on a fence, a full moon with an outline of a witch on a broomstick flying by the full moon. There was also a graveyard on with many tombstones.
I remember seeing a #1 (I think) around 1980, when they were repainting cars a second time in silver and blue, in which one of the cars appeared to have had a whole can of paint just splattered all over the exterior. Everything was obliterated, even the windows. I didn't pay much attention to the "artwork", since I felt graffiti as a whole was pretty disgusting.
Perhaps they had one for every season -- I also remember one that had 'Merry Christmas' painted accross the side. I think it was an R-29, and I saw it on the #2 train.
I have a Christmas card from a few years ago with that very car! It's an R-26 whose number I can't recall at the moment. I'll have to dig out that card.
That car made a Christmas Card? Sounds like my kind of card!
Did it say Hallmark on the back? ;-)
THE CHRISTMAS CAR # WAS 7752 ITS NOT HALMARK
ITS FOTOFOLIO
Is this card still available? This would be neat to send out to some of my subway-loving friends.
BTW- I've seen #7752 twice over the course of the last year or so, and have ridden on it once, on the #5 line while on my way up to The Bronx. Someone should give him a shot or two of Bondo.
Wayne
You may recall a NY Village Voice centerfold from the late '70s or very early '80s that had pictures of subway cars covered from top to bottom with grafitti "murals". At the bottom of the page were descriptions of all the cars followed by the statement "these cars have since been defaced by the MTA" meaning that they were painted.
--Mark
All this talk about surpluses it would be nice to see the whole subway fleet overhauled with state-of-the-art subway cars. What does everyone envision in the future for our subway system, let's say 50 to 100 years from now? What would everyone like to see?
50 years from now I would love to see futuristic trains that have electronic maps in the cars that will pinpoint the exact location of the train your'e riding on that specific line. It would be nice to the 2nd Ave line running up and down the East Side. Another line possibly running along 10th Ave in Manhattan. A possible link between Saten Island and Brooklyn. Subway stations where above the platforms would be television monitors broadcasting the history of the subway system, news of the day and information about tourist attractions. These T.V.s will be in DVD format and can also broadcast other interesting things. A system where there would be restaurants or oter types of eateries nestled deep in side the tunnels where one can watch the sleek futuristic trains zoom by at high speeds. Elevated tracks that will be more attractive so they can be built in places where they would pose a problem today. In the subway cars instead of "paper" advertisements have video screens where numerous advertisements can be shown. Imagine a subway system where you can look out your office window and see trains not crawl along as they do now but zoom across the tracks. Having super-express trains that can bring us from the far ends of the outer boroughs to Manhattan in no more than 5 minutes. There would also be self-cleaning toilets in all the stations. This may be a little far-fetched, but what about for the 200th anniversay of the opening of subway having a place where you through the means of advanced virtual-reality have an experience as if it were real the opening day of the subway in 1906. There would also be a super-link between the major three airports and mid-town Manhattan. On the subject of information, the trains would be able to show information in various languages. Imagine all of this in the future and possibly much more. Could it be 50, 100, or 200 years from now? Maybe we'll never see this come to be or amybe we'll some of these dreams come true. The visions of the future may be different from each of us.
What are your visions of the future for our subway system? They maybe nothing more than pipe-dreams for all of us but it is nice to dream of the future in any way that makes us feel good. So I say to all of us sweet dreams. Share your visions of our future.
Nice vision, but don't you think that when any of this is invented that people would have any beter ways of getting around then the subway? They would problely be more focus on buses then the underground.
I don't follow. Why would there be more focus on busses than the subway?
Re: Buses instead of sunways / light rail: Face it, this country has a facitnation with quick and cheap transit systems. Hence the use of buses and diesel powered commuter trains. Personally, i don't think busses are very effective. But they are cheap. That's all that matters in the US these days. That said, I doubt the Subway will dissapear anytime soon. It will most likely expand.
50 Years from now:
2nd ave line built. Brightliner fan trips (: Computerized signal system, entire fleet has regenerative braking. Speeds somewhat higher than today. A new Queens line gets built, and a Statan Island link also. Light rail pops up far Queens / Nassau, possibly with direct subway / LIRR connections. Airport line built at turn of century is abandoned because of low use and a general decrease in air travel due to High Speed Rail system that sprang up along the East Coast. Amtrak no longer exists, and passenger rail is privatly run again, and very sucessful.
Stations are much like toady, but automated vacuum trains and cleaning machines keep them cleaner. Self cleaning restrooms are installed. Central security system is installed, though controversial. Automated info kiosks and Metrocard vendors displace token booths. Booths get converted to security boxes in busier stations. Laser beam system warns / stops comming trains if a person falls off the platform, or is leaning too far over. If a person falls off, third rail power is removed, and security alerted. Intercom instructs person not to panic in 15 different languages.
Service is much much more frequent, as the system tries to cope with an exploding ridership. A general shift in attitude towrds public transportation, helped by $3.00/gallon gas prices, and high ($2.50/gal) ethanol prices (due to demand outstripping supply). Prices of latter are expected to drop as production ramps up, and demand levels off.
Most surrounding NY area RRs are electric, or in the process of electrifying. Nuclear plants located on LI, in NJ, and upstate NY make electricity cheaper. Shoreham unit #1 is replaced by two, next generation designs. Public attitudes toward nuclear power have shifted dramatically.
Penn station arrival/departure monitors are HDTV, and broadcast public service messages at normal intervals.
Grand Central has had its trainshed entirely redone, and looks even more spectacular than it does now. Metro-North has rewired Danbury, and extended the New Haven overhead all the way to GCT, and converted the Harlem line to overhead.
Ok, so that wasn't all subway, but that's my idea of what NY area mass transit will be like. I don't expect major changes, but just a gradual evolution of what we have now.
And Slant R40 fan trips too! (I'll have a pair of them in my backyard at my retirement home outside Winchester VA)
Also: IND is extended east of 179th Street; the old LIRR Rockaway branch becomes the link to the airport; the "N" gets extended to LGA,
some of the original IND second-system ideas begin to get dusted off,
the oldest cars running are the R68s and R68As, with a reduced fleet of R32s and R40s in mothballs for emergency re-use (all retrofitted with state-of-the-art features).
Wayne
[Also: IND is extended east of 179th Street; the old LIRR Rockaway branch becomes the link to the airport; the "N" gets extended to LGA, some of the original IND second-system ideas begin to get dusted off, the oldest cars running are the R68s and R68As, with a reduced fleet of R32s and R40s in mothballs for emergency re-use (all retrofitted with state-of-the-art features).]
Now Phil's posting, to which you responded, involved the subway 50 years from now. Is that your time frame also? If so, that would mean that the still-available R32s and R40s would be over 80 years old!
Sure would, Peter. We can dream, can't we. Anyway, they're stainless steel, nothing's going to rust 'em; I think with proper maintenance that they can reach 50 years and maybe quite a bit more, if the TA's willing to let them run. Here's a suggestion for the next R32 and R40 overhaul: let's replace the interior lighting with the R38 style of backlit advertising panels. Why they removed it in the first place is beyond me.
Wayne
And put those good old route and destination roller curtains back in the bulkheads of the R-32s and R-38s (let's not forget about them).
You my wish to look at London for a glimpse of a subway in fifty years time. We already have $5.00 a gallon gas. I'm afraid all you will have to look forward to is one man operated trains, a less frequent and crowded sytem, a doubleing of fares over 3 years, no staff around at many stations particularly at night, frequent signal failures and delays. But you might get some comfy seats.
Okay so that's the pessimistic view, but let's dream. Indeed 2nd Ave, Rockaway LIRR to JFK, RAIL links to SI, N to LGA, the NYC Connecting rebuilt to an integral part of the system, and since LIRR has long since serviced both GCT and PENN, re configuration of former NYC/NH hardware to PRR, NJT, LIRR with thru services like ConnDOT to JFK over Hell Gate, NEWARK to JFK, On the subway side, most of IND ph 2 and some serious crosstwon lines in Manhattan, As to hardware we can hope for R32 quality in the future when railcar building resurges. As to whizz-bang electronic location finders on board I don't care, but a god send would be monitors at each station with the next three trains displayed in real time.
The info screens would be an excellent idea but I suppose most New Yorkers know which train is going where and so on. The screens giving real time information would help frustrated passengers who have see several trains pass through with no idea how long there the wait will be before the one arrives going to there chosen destination. There are however two type of time in London one of which is LT time in which an LT minute can be up the three normal minutes.
NYCT has plans on installing such a system. There are several prototypes in testing at this time. When the system specs are decided and installation begins then at some point they will be able to tell you exactly when the next train will arrive and where it will go. The system will also be able to interact with crowd conditions and alert the booth if passenger levels climb above a certain level. The view in the booth will show the crowd area for supervision to resolve such as closing the fare control till crowds drop.
One day, I was working at 5th av/53rd street and crowds backed up from the platforms to the fare control and started backing up towards the street. The on-site supervisor instructed the main station agent (I worked as an assist) to close the turnstiles until the crowds diminished- we stayed closed for about 10 minutes! (Police were also already on-site.)
Whilst it is important that information should be provided. It is very frustrating to be given in accurate info which sadly is sometimes the case here in London.
The monitoring of passenger numbers on the platforms is another big step forward in subway/underground safety as overcrowding can spell disaster. In Lille, France they have platfrom doors along the edge of the platform which open when the train arrives. I saw a mock up of such a system at Westinghouse here in England which was intended for use on the Jubilee Line extension.
I don't think that platform doors are the answer to overcrowding. Although they will make conditions safer when there are a lot of people on the platform, there will still need to be a procedure for stopping people reaching the platform when things go wrong. Remember Hillsborough? [People crushed to death against crowd contro barriers at a soccer stadium because the police let too many spectators in]
Overcrowding in any subway / underground system is dangerous and preventative measures should of course be carried out. I feel that sometimes with only video cameras around and no staff on hand a situation could rapidly develop. With cost cutting exercises taking place on all fronts there is always the potential for a disaster. The barriers refered to may minimise the risk of people falling into the path of a train on a crowded platform.
Personally, I would be happy with just clean trains, the graffiti removed between the stations, efficient service and lots of seats. All the dreams of 50 years from now are nice, but who is gonna pay for all that!
I'll help pay for it.
What is your opion of new subway sustems that have no turnstiles to enter like the LA Metro?
I think it is stupid. They say that it makes the station more accessible and safer. I think a turnstile or fare gate makes the station safer, children cann't get to platform level and posssibly get to the electified tracks. As far as hadicapped access, install wheel-chair turnsitles like the CTA has or have gates or other ways for handdicapped people to enter like NYC.
I do think that it should be harder to enter the system without paying your fare instead of just jumping the turnstile. There should be some way that it would be impossible, just think how much more money the MTA, CTA ect... would make! The people who do this don't have enough money for a transportation alternative and would be forced to pay. The high-barrier gates aren't the answer though, the get stuck to much and I personally think they suck!
BJ
Please imagine that the subway is an extension of the PUBLIC sidewalks, and then think about turnstiles every time you cross a street or turn a corner. The "fare" is an obsolete feature leftover from private operator times, and like unto turnpikes operated by the same tax gougers who run the rest of the 'state' we already have paid for these infrastructures many times over. If you believe in "user fees" then I have less quarrel, BUT do you believe in user fees for all tax built systems-like local streets, libraries, fire depts., etc.?? It is mostly a question of how you wish to apportion the costs, AND what political-social-economic fantasy you subscribe to.
Operating any transportation system, air, rail, hiway is expensive. I think it is only fair that the user pay for all or part of the cost. All forms are transport complain that they are inadequately funded. the hiway people say they need more money to repair the roads and bridges, the airlines say they need a more modern traffic control system, heavens knows transit needs to be expanded. . If eveything were "free" there would not be enough money to maintain the current transportation systems much less make needed capital improvements. The passenger railroads and the NYC subway were staved for capital and they declined. I think the user should pay something if only to keep the riff-raff off the trains.
Free tolls? Free food? Free housing? Free internet service? Right to consume, no obligation to work? I think that was tried. It degenerated into from each according to his stupidity, to each according to their greed. We have enough of this in NYC as it is. Do you still think that government spending favors the poor? That was true for about 15 minutes in American history, and its over.
HEY, WAIT A SECOND:
You Guys totally MISSED my point! It is isn't free to ride the subway in LA, you have to buy a ticket, but it is on a "Trust" system that you will buy that ticket and sometimes roaming fare-inspectors will ride the trains.
I think that everywhere should be similar to the Paris Metro. You have to buy a ticket to ride, have to enter with the ticket through a turnsitle and roaming fare-inspectors occassionally ride the trains to check if everyone has their ticket and if you don't have a ticket you are taken to jail immediately if you don't have the $150.00 to pay the fine. I rode the the Metro for 4 days when I was in Frace and saw no inspectors, but still thought this was a good idea because almost every person under the age of 25 jumped the turnstiles.
I do think though that we shouldn't be force to pay taxes towards public transportation and every time we use it have to pay a fare!
BJ
Dear Larry, There is 'free' and "free" I did not say life is a "free" ride, AND I would point out that as a self-employed person... That notwithstanding, since the TA never has and never will be able to cover total expenses out of the farebox, the pricing is quite arbitrary. I offer as recent evidence, the change from the two fare ripoff which had existed from dim history to the transfer "privilege" with Metrocard. This was heralded as a techno feat. Au contraire, many other transit properties had implemented paper based free or cheap transfers between rail and bus years ago. So my point is that this change was a long overdue reform of an inequitable IMHO setup. Did this make use of a bus "free?" No it simply recast the user fee structure and guess what--INCREASED usage and net income. As to thequestion of fares in general, I remain of the opinion that since they are a small fraction of the "total" budget they are merely a "token" (pun intended) and as such could be lowered or eliminated. BTW, has NYC implemented individual water and sewer charges for tenants yet? When I lived there thirty years ago water was unmetered=free. Here in cal I pay $35+ a month for these, yet the entity is a government-tax supportted organ.
As to POP, it seems to work well in Sacto, San Jose, Portland etc.
(Metering) Yes, metering has been implemented, and guess what, usage fell. The overloaded sewage treatment plants are below capacity. People are fixing leaks.
But seriously, I have become cynical about "free" government services. The fare accounts for over 70 percent of the operating costs of the subway, less than 40 percent on the bus. If they were free, the TA would defer maintenance, just as they did to keep the fare at 5 cents. Meanwhile, suburbanites would get free commuter rail, with a seat, and with some of my tax dollars, while the subways fell apart.
BTW the public schools employ 3.3 percent of the workers in the city, 5.6 percent in the U.S., and 6.7 percent in the rest of New York State. All are free, but the NYC education is worth nothing. The poor are subsidizing the rich (surprise)! Free means we all pay in taxes, and the politically powerful determine who gets what. Better? Not in New York.
At least you have term limits at the state level.
Oh for gosh sake, Larry! 1. the purpose of gov't is to enforce UPward redistribution of wealth-get a grip. The only time the king(or the governor or selectman) gives up anything is in response to serious public pressure. 2. the 70% percent figure is opposite here. the local transit agencies must raise 30% from fares in order to obtain subsidies from state etc. 3. very little is genuinely free--your response about water I think is correct.--but imagine meters on the streets and sidewalks. 4. as to taxes, if I ran the asylum(its no longer merely a zoo) I wouldn't pay a nickel toward either the defense crooks or the highways. Since I can't drive ... However in fact even though I buy no gasoline my general tax load pays for traffic police, highway patrol, traffic light maintenance, street repair, ad nauseam. Im turn if the cost of US war capability in the mideast were added to gas at the pump Exxon might die and the subways would be sardines 24-7 So, basically we come back to, democracy awful as it is in practice is still the second best method for allocating so called public resources,(first is of course enlightened despotic rule by ...). And gov't also is the referee between so called private interests. As the last real example of genuine laissez-faire is the illegal dope trade, I view ALL other economic endeavor as somewhat regulated and subsidized one way or another--priced butter recently despite the yuppies drinking skim milk? If you want fares ok, just remember that the whole structure bears NO objective relation to any nominal cost of providing the service. After all in the current era TWU would not have as good a deal for its members if it were in a 'private' operation and in turn perhaps such an operation would be less willing to serve any but the most lucrative routes. enough
We have "free" roads and "free" sidewalks and "free" elevators so why shouldn't we have "free" subways. Actually, Clayborne Pell wrote a book called Ride Free, Drive Free a few decades ago in which he makes a compelling case for free public transportation. He argues that motorists would enjoy far less congested highways when the gas tax helps pay to get the rest of us off the roads and onto transit.
Has anyone totalled up how much tax money is spent each year on road maintenance, traffic signals and computer monitoring, traffic police, emergency services, etc. just for New York city alone?
For the record, I'm also against driving free.
Turnstiles serve other purposes in addition to fare control. They also register the nunber of entries. Even if the system were free then there would still be a need to track entries into the system as well as exits from the system. Supervisors can and do maintain logs of entries and exits. The AFC turnstiles also record tokens .
disclaimer***while I am a NYCT non-supervisory employee, opinions expressed are my own and not those of MTA or NYCT***
Does anyone have any idea why the tinted glass on Boston's Orange line cars are two different colors? There are brown-tint and bluish-tint panes adjacent to each other at each window and on the door panes, too.
Mike,
The address given on your maps, m-adler@ix.netcom.com, doesn't seem to work anymore. Anyway, I have two questions about the 1920 system track map of the Manhattan & Bronx Els.
1: There doesn't seem to be any means by which a northbound 3rd Av. El can proceed from 125th St to 129th St to the Bronx. A switch seems to be missing somewhere.
2: Was 156th St really an express station then? It sure wasn't in 1964, the last time I rode the line. It was a local station with the usual wall platforms.
Thanks for any information about these questions.
Bob Sklar
1: There doesn't seem to be any means by which a northbound 3rd Av. El can proceed from 125th St to 129th St to the Bronx. A switch seems to be missing somewhere.
2: Was 156th St really an express station then? It sure wasn't in 1964, the last time I rode the line. It was a local station with the usual wall platforms.
Anyone want to confirm this? my track maps are in storage at my sister's place.... send me any corrections.
Thanks,
Michael Adler
adler1969@aol.com
adler@nycsubway.org
---------------------------
USPS City Letter Carrier in
Denver, ColorFUL Colorado
THE BEST SOURCE FOR THIS INFORMATION IS THE TRACKS OF NEW YORK NO 3 MANHATTAN AND BRONX ELEVATED RAILROADS 1920 BY ALAN PAUL KAHN AND JACK MAY PAGE 23 HAS A TRACK MAP OF THE 120 ST TO 161 ST AREA.IT WAS POSSIBLE FOR A 3 AV TRAIN TO STOP AT 125,THEN 129,THEN PROCEED TO THE BRONX.HOWEVER,IF THE TRAIN WAS A 3 AV THRU-EXP IT WOULD HAVE STOPPED AT THE UPPER LEVEL AT 125 ST,THEN OPERATED THRU 129 ST ON THE UPPER LEVEL(NO PLATFORM)DIRECTLY ONTO THE HARLEM RIVER BRIDGE AND ONTO THE UPPER LEVEL TRACKS IN THE BRONX.156 ST WAS A THREE TRACK LOCAL STATION WITH TWO SIDE PLATFORMS.THE MAP ON PAGE 23 IS IN ERROR SHOWING IT AS AN EXPRESS STATION.THIS IS A MINOR ERROR IN AN OTHERWISE FINE BOOK.HOPE THIS INFO HELPS.
i heard something about him making a citizens arrest of a bus driver for an illegal left turn. does anyone know if this is true and if so please some details.
The Toronto Transit Commission bought 50 Orion VI low floor CNG buses that have been totally unsatisfactory. They went into service this year and were pulled a couple months later. The reasons? A seating capacity of only 29 and the more serious problem that the bus structurally cannot handle more than 58 passengers total even though about 66 (including standees)can fit (cram) in there.
The TTC has also had problems with Orion V CNG's, that now seem to be fixed. The New Flyer buses of the 1990's are rusting pre-maturely.
The result?
The TTC has purchased GM newlook fish bowls from Montreal and rebuilt their own fishbowls that are less than 20 years old.
Have US agencies had the same problems with Orions and New Flyers?
[The Toronto Transit Commission bought 50 Orion VI low floor CNG buses that have been totally unsatisfactory. They went
into service this year and were pulled a couple months later. The reasons? A seating capacity of only 29 and the more serious
problem that the bus structurally cannot handle more than 58 passengers total ]
Souldn't this have been something they knew about before purchasing them?
I was in SEPTA's Transit Museum today, and I happen to notice a new
book about SEPTA's rail system, called "Trains, Trolleys & Transit,
A Guide To Philadelphia Area Rail Transit" by Gerry Williams and
published by Railpace Company, inc.. Even though the book just came
out about a week ago, the transit museum was completely sold out of
them, except for the display copy. The cashier told me that they
won't be getting anymore in until after the holidays. After looking
at the display copy, I just fell in love with the book, and had to
have it now, so the cashier sold it to me for a discount, since it was
a little "beat up" from people looking through it. It is a great book,
and a must have for any transit fan. It is paperback, 112 pages, and
is chock-full of color photos, and descriptions of every regional
rail, and rapid transit line.
Yes, it's a good book and it's quite useful for anyone, whether they have knowledge of the Phila operations or are just seeking such. I advanced-ordered a copy from the Railpace magazine folks, who published it, for $25. I'm not sure what the list price is, since the advance price was supposedly at a discount. Knowing the Transit Museum store, the book will no doubt be pricey there.
Not only are the photos good and the coverage comprehensive (everything on rails that carries passengers in this area is covered, and even trackless trolleys rate a small section), but there is something for nearly everyone to learn here. I thought I new most things about transit and rails in this area, yet until I read the book, I didn't realize that all Silverliner III's (St Louis-built) came with left-side engineers positions. I thought only a handful had been modified to that configuration for some reason.
Can anyone assist me in obtaining a copy
thank you
Steve
I ordered it directly from the publisher. You may want to contact it for more info:
Railpace Inc
PO Box 927
Piscataway, NJ 08855-0927
I don't know if Railpace is on the 'net. Might be worth a try.
Railpace.com
How do you like the Book
How is the coverage of Regional Rail Ops
Thank you
Steve
SEPTA IS ONCE AGAIN OPERATING THE WELCOME LINE TROLLEY ON THE CENTER CITY LOOP.SERVICE IS RUNNING ON SATURDAYS AND SUNDAYS AND POSSIBLY FRIDAYS FROM APPROX.10AM TO 6 PM.CARS RUN ABOUT EVERY 15/20 MINS. CARS LEAVE FROM ARCH AND 12 ST WHERE THERE IS A PASSING LOOP SOUTH ON 12 ST,THEN EAST ON BAINBRIDGE,NORTH ON 11 ST,WEST ON NOBLE,AND SOUTH ON 12ST TO ARCH.CARS MAY BE BOARDED AT ANY SEPTA STOP ON ROUTE AND RUN IN A CONTINIOUS LOOP.SERVICE IS FREE SPONSERED BY LOCAL MERCHANTS.FRIDAY NOVEMBER 27 FOLLOWING CARS WERE IN SERVICE PCC 2799(RED ARROW PAINT SCHEME),PCC 2168 (PTC GREEN SCHEME),ALSO ONE LRV.
Does anyone know if the speed limits will ever be raised on all subways to what they once were? I remember rocketing into Manhattan on the Brighton line. It now takes a good 5-7 minutes to get over that wonderful Manhattan bridge.
And what about the R-you-moving? line which runs like a snail, crawling especially through the DeKalb Ave. swamp, and for some reason, between City Hall and Canal St.
By the way, the closed R/N Canal St. station is quite a cool site. Check it out before they clean it up. It offers a Planet of the Apes atmosphere.
Also, will they every run an express N along Broadway again?
IMHO, they'd have to upgrade the signals first. I seem to recall that trains did, in fact, go faster over the Manhattan Bridge at one time. That very first N train I rode back in 1965 did anything but crawl over the bridge. At one point on that ride, probably while still underground, my father called out over the din that we were on an express.
The Canal St. station leading to the bridge is an express stop; R trains have always operated via the Montague St. tunnel, which is presently operating at full capacity.
If and when the south side tracks reopen, the N might run express again; however, if the north side tracks are shut down and the B and D, as well as the Q, are rerouted, the N will probably continue to run via the tunnel and remain a local.
N and R trains ran express downtown only this past weekend from 57th/7th to Canal St. Got it on video now, too, since it's been a LONG time that I've done that.
On this same train of R-32s (and a different set heading to Queensboro Plaza), a speed of 56 mph was recorded traveling under the East River. And I know that the downtown ride on the 6th Ave express from 34th to W 4th has also been mentioned as a speed alley.
--Mark
Whoa!!! 56 mph ?!? They didn't call the R-32s jackrabbits for nothing. Was this in the 60th St. or Montague St. tunnel?
60th Street tunnel. Montague has more speed control signals than 60th. One of the signs in the 60th St tunnel actually has a "GT 50" sign.
--Mark
Do any of the NYC private lines have web sites??
There are two:
1. NYCDOT has a Web site similar to the TA
2. NY Bus Service = http://www.nybus.com/
Also Queens Surface & Green Bus have internet connections, e.g.
info@qsbus.com
Mr t__:^)
I was not living in NYC at the time they were testing the R-110's on the A, however yesterday I rode An A Train Out to Far Rockaway and I noticed that About half of the hanging bars in the Stations that line up with the counductors window(Most of them Are Just Black And White Striped) Said "R-110" On Them. Why would this be?
Those R-110B conductor boards were put up for the test of the R-110Bs on the line, as the conductor's position lines up differently than with the R-44 and R-38 cars' boards normally used. I suspect they're still there in case the R-110B is ever used again on the line; they're not in anyone's way, and it's easier to leave them there "just in case" than take them down! But for now, the R-110B is only operating on the since only six of the nine cars are operational (the other three are being used for parts).
test
I would like to discuss for a moment the issue of communiting for eastsiders. I am a new resident to the Upper East Side, having just moved to from East 35th Street. I had no Idea that my communte to midtown would be such a hassle. What makes me angry is that for 70 years a second avenue subwayline has been in the works. Still we are waiting for its completion. Is there a citizens group that is working on trying to get our government to finish the job it started??
With the surplus in the MTA budget is there a way to have this project completed. If you have any suggestions on what can be done, please respond.
Thank You ,
Daniel Margolis
Would you like to Spearhead such a group?
Yes, I would but my time is limited if many would get involve and help, I think something could be done. I could only contrubute a few hors a week to such a cause. Maybe if many people got togather and went to a MTA meeting, that might be a start. Got any suggestions on organizing such a group??
I'll join . . . .
First do the research that is what I am doing and when I am ready to have a meeting with the chairman I will let everyone know also I found out that you have to do alot of research.
Christopher Rivera
The MTA surplus would be hardly a drop in the bucket in terms of what it would cost to complete that line. When construction finally began on 1972, the projected price tag was $2 billion for the 14.3 miles from Whitehall and Water Sts to E. 180th St. In today's dollars, that figure would be doubled at the very least. I don't know how much was spent on the few segments which were completed before the city went bankrupt. If the project were to be scaled back and the line built from 63rd St. to 125th St. (and two of the completed segments exist along this stretch), the price tag would be less, but still substantial.
With all the setbacks through the years, it makes you wonder if this line, as badly needed as it is, just wasn't meant to be.
Just before election day I met a candidate for public office on my way to school one morning at 86th and Lex. His name was Robert Bellington and the flyer he shoved in my face mentioned the completion of the Second Avenue Subway as part of his agenda. I don't know if he won, but I would think the first step to spearhead such a group would be to get someone experienced with propaganda, more specifically a politician on your side.
Did you offer to shake his hand? I would have said, "You've got my vote. You da maannnn!"
This Fall we had politians making house calls in my Village, it's a opportunity for folks to say a few words to them. They also press a lot of flesh on the LIRR platforms.
Mr t__:^)
I would like to discuss for a moment the issue of communiting on the East Side. I am a new resident to the Upper East Side, having moved from East 35th Street. I had no idea that my commute to midtown would be such a hassle. What makes me angry is that for 70 years a still uncompleted second avenue subway line has been under construction. Still we are waiting for its completion. Is there a citizens group that is working on trying to get our government to finish the job it has started?? With the surplus in the MTA budget, is there a way to have this long overdue project completed? If you have any suggestions on what can be done, please respond.
Thank you,
Daniel Margolis
dmargolis12@yahoo.com
DOES ANYONE OUT THERE KNOW WHETHER THE FIVE WEEK (NOV.7TH TO
DEC.6TH)PROJECT WILL BE EXTENDED? ALSO, WHAT IS THE TARGET DATE FOR LONG_TERM shutdown>
as far as i know this is the last weekend of the general order. no new general order has come out......yet.May 1999 is the target month for the bridge to close.no definitive date in may though.
Dear Mike, thanks for your input re: J Shuttle. If you know anyone who
has the answers to my schedule questions, please contact me:
gerryjay@yahoo.com ... Thanks Loads, Gerry Josephs
DOES ANYONE KNOW AT WHAT TIME (EXACTLY) ON SATURDAY MORNING DOES THE FIRST J SHUTTLE TRAIN LEAVE MYRTLE AVE. BOUND FOR HEWES STREET? WHEN DOES IT DEPART HEWES?
ON SUNDAY NIGHT, WHAT TIME DOES THE J SHUTTLE ARRIVE AT AND LEAVE HEWES STREET? WHICH TRACK DOES IT RUN ON? BROOKLYN BOUND, OR MANHATTAN BOUND? PLEASE LET ME KN0W VIA E-MAIL, to gerryjay@yahoo.com
spotted on the gowanus this morning at 8:30 orion 6351 and a companion63xx. they were headed to si nj vz bridge. anyone know where they were going?
Perhaps Atlantic Diesel in Lodi N.J.
With respect to the escalators at the Atlantic Ave. Station of the EBT, they were not removed in the 1930's. The elevators continued in service until 1950 when one of them short circuited and started a major fire in the station. The station was closed for weeks and trains continued in service through the fire blackened station. I rode through the disaster area in the Summer on the way to Revere Beach (change at Maverick to trolleys at that time).
It is most unlikely that B&N, Bay State St,Ry or any "foreign" company ever operated cars into the EBT as the congestion due to an inadequate track layout at Court St. limited the capacity of the tunnel. The BERy had all it could handle with its own East Boston lines entering the tunnel! This situation was not eased until the extension to Bowdoin Station and the exit to Cambridge St. was opened in 1916 allowing through service between East Boston and Harvard Square in Cambridge.
Conversion of the EBT to 3rd rail trains ended the use of the Cambridge St. exit, but the exit was used by trolley locomotives moving EBT rapid transit trains to the Cambridge Subway. The East Boston line had no maintenance shop of its own, so its cars were served at the Bennett St. shops of the Cambridge-Dorchester line.
When I boarded the #7 train at Times Square this evening, I noticed something a little unusual in the single R-33 in its consist.
The interior lights were the same as in the mainline rebuilt Redbirds (post-rebuilt lighting with the new cases and mid-ceiling lighting removed and replaced with the metal panels--also didn't go out at the crossover). The fans were still there though, and blowing away during the 75 degree heatwave on December 4th.
Was 9336 retrofitted with this lighting as a pilot to re-rebuild the Flushing fleet?
I looked at the other cars -- same lighting as before. 9336 was the only one I saw with the updated lights.
Maybe it went in for a little general overhaul.
If I remember correctly, there were a couple of GE R-30s retrofitted with the low voltage D.C. lighting before they bought the farm. I remember there was an R-33 single with the Midland Ross door operators
still installed. They are an odd fleet probably the only ones with their variable load valves too.
> They are an odd fleet probably the only ones with their variable
> load valves too.
Is that what makes the quick, high-pitched sound right after the doors closed? I rode on the #7 this weekend, and I was surprised that they still did this. Do any of the R-36's still have the variable load valves?
It was a gas to ride an R-33, complete with the fans that blew warm air around. I noticed that the fan covers looked a little beat up though, and one looked different, like it came from another car. Couldn't get a good look though, because I had to get off.
That is, indeed, the load valve. The R-36s did that as well the last time I rode them out to Shea in June of 1996. None of the other GOH cars make that sound anymore. As I recall, even the R-10s used to make that sound.
Some of the R33WFs had different louvers on their fan housings, kind of similar to those found in the R15s (now THOSE were unique with their four-porthole windows and little square handholds, the kind you could just about fit your fist into). If I remember correctly, car #9311 had these louvers, others may have had them too. And Slant R40 #4150-4151 had them too (they were later replaced).
Wayne
What ever happened to "Bat Wings" on city buses? Those were the self-illuminated signboards that ran along the edge of the roof of New York City Transit and some New Jersey Transit buses facing people on the sidewalk.
I guess they might hurt fuel efficiency since they stuck up from the roofs. But they were only used on local bus lines, not express lines. They were more visable than other signs because they lit up with florescent lights from inside.
I didn't know they were called "bat wings" till I saw a photo of one of the vehicles from the 1970's in the collection of Bus Fest pictures in another place on this web page. You also notice them in some movies from the '70's when a NYC bus goes by, such as "Annie Hall" and "The Goodbye Girl."
Not that the MTA needs the extra cash with its 378 Million Dollar Surplus, but I'm sure the added revenue from the signs could be put to some use if they brought back bat wings.
Three groups of NYCTA/MABSTOA GMC 5303's were equipped with the large outside signs, or "bat wings". Five prototypes came in 1965 (5521-5525). Following were 200 in 1966 (6700-6899) and 682 in 1967 (8001-8202 and 8301-8780). Finally a portion of the 133 from 1969 (8801-8933) were also so equipped.
I don't know why the signs were eliminated - I always liked them on the outside, especially at night. Inside the bus, though, the signs made it difficult for standees to see street names. Remember also that the signs added about $2000 to the cost of each bus (remember, late 1960's dollars) and added weight at a time when fuel costs were becoming an issue.
Please make that 6701-6899. 6700 did not have wings. I have been on that bus in 1969 on the Bx. 15 (Gun Hill Rd.)
Yes, you are correct about 6700 not having those illuminated signs. The order was actually 6701-6900. 6700 spent most of it's life at the Coliseum depot in The Bronx.
Another problem with the `bat wing' buses were the side desination roll signs. The ones on the driver's side started to malfunction about two years after they went into service, while the one on the side with the doors they gave up on in the mid-1970s. THe MTA also spent a bunck of buck on `M' stickers to paste over the `TA' and `OA' logos that were on the front of the signs (stickers and frequent paint jobs, from green to blue to white, being the linchpin of the MTA's preventive maintenance program in the 1970s for buses and subways)
I thought the signs were ugly. It made the bus look like a rolling billboard. I also remember that after a while the destination signs would break and the illumination behind the signs would fail.
I also think that with today's "Shrink-wrap" and full body advertisements, "Bat-Wings" are out dated.
Crosstown, when it was a working depot, had 8041-8080. The first time they ran one on the B39 (WillyB route) was the last time--tight clearances on the bridge meant an unwanted encounter between the bridge structure & a wing. BTW: toward the end of their lives, some had the wings removed. That area was not repainted & stuck out like a sore thumb!
For those who want to refresh their memory of what the "Bat Wings" looked like see 1998 Mega Bus Calendar, Sept 27 page, for a GMC Fishbowl ('76 in MBSTOA colors on 8/14/82).
Mr t__:^)
Also - Remember the two later MaBSTOA experiments with these signs. There was 1975 Flxible 53102-6-1 #7753 that originally was assigned to the 54th St depot. Later it went to other MaBSTOA depots. The there was the 1980 Grumman Flxible 870 #631. This bus was assigned to 132nd St depot and later when the NYCTA started creating Grumman 870 and GMC RTS depots it was sent to 54th Street depot.
I just rememebered another thing - There was the advertising racks mounted the A/C units on 1975 and 1977 Flxible 53102-6-1 in Manhattan. I didn't like those at all.
It'll be interesting to see an RTS or Orion with the "bat wings", however I doubt that will happen again. I remember that up until the mid-80s there quite a few "bat wings" busses assigned the Ulmer Park garage. When I was a kid back then, they used to be assgined to the B1 B4 and B64 busses which ran thru my old neighborhood of Bay Ridge.
They were displaced by newer GM RTS busses(3000 and 4000 series).
On another note, from the mid-80s thru the mid-90s it seemed like Jackie Gleason and Ulmer park was a magnet for GMC fishbowl busses from all around town. While you had lots of RTS vehicles arriving it was a better then even chance that you would get a fishbowl or Flxible
(1970s era) on any route based of those 2 garages alone. While attending Kingsboro College in the early 90s, I always managed to board a fishbowl on the B1 line. Every so often the B1 would have a Flxible that still had the MaBSTOA decals on the sides and a Manhattan Bus Map beind the driver's seat.
Oh well nowadays it's almost all RTS country with CNG and standard Orions. Personally I'm glad that the MTA started picking up the Orion model. Plenty of windows, fast running, simple design, definitely an improvement asthetically over the RTS which tries to look modern, but ends up looking like a prizefighter that was beaten up the point of looking swollen and bruised.
Speaking about "Bat Wings", check out the January 1999 issue of Railfan to see what AMTRAK is doing with their new west coast TALGOs
Cadilllac Tailfins return.
IMHO The orion has all of the style of a bus designed by Captain Kangaroo, who could take a shoe box and make it into anything. Just get out the markers and draw the windows and wheels.
And also "Shaft", and thre Odd Couple show.
The city just isn't the same without them. I wished that the tour companies would have gotten some. Some of the double deckers have advertizements above the first deck windows, and that is somewhat reminiscent of the wings. The taxicab roof signs also seemed to fit in with the wings, and not only are those still used, but now they have added neon lights to them. That would have been cool on the bus wings.
I recall these buses being taken out of retirement in the early 80's during the Grumman fiasco. The ones assigned to Hudson depot on the M14's I rode on frequently. I use to look at the destination sign assignment number sticker and see they were once assigned to Brooklyn on the b41's, etc.
Some senior operators have told me that driving these buses on certain routes was very difficult. Like on the triboro bridge, the wind would grab the bus and move it over one lane. These operators at the time were rookies and were very fearful of this situation!
Sometime around 1981-83 Hudson depot had rec'd all (or at least most of them) of the 8300 that originally operated out of Kingsbridge (8301-8371). A few that were converted for express service remained at KB. I don't remember all, but 8368,8370,8373 & 8375 were some of them.
I do remember them on the B-41, where I grew up.
Of course, when some of them were "Blitzed", (rebuilt by the Blitz Co.), the wings were removed, and they became the 50xx, which were all at 100th St., and Queens Village until they began to be dispersed before retirement.
The original "Bat Wing" bus was #3472. They were placed on the bus in 1964, and they were different than the other wings. The corners were not rounded, they were straight sharp edges. It also had no destination curtain and the logo was lettered for MaBSTOA but with the initials "TA" in the center. The original ad was:
New buses coming ...to serve you better.
Correction to the "Bat Wing" roster: 5516-5525 (not 5520-5525) and 6701-6900 (not 6701-6899)
The 5516-5525 had a white sticker with green "MaBSTOA" letters placed over the driver's window and front door and no logo on the wings.
One last item. The sign curtains on the 8301-8780 (MaBSTOA)advertised the area served (ex: 15 Jackson Heights [It was the 15 and not Q32.While 8001-8202 (NYCTA) were actual destination curtains. By the way, do we remember the roof-top radio blisters these buses brought from the factory?
I actually have sign curtains from 2 depots from the bat wing buses. One from Ulmer Park and another from a Bronx depot. I would pay up for one from Flushing Depot. Very fond memories of Bus #8038 on the Q15 to Beechhurst. They never ran the buses very much on the Q14 & Q15 due to the overhanging trees on 149th and 150th Streets.
These were my favorite buses for many years. I grew up in the Bronx and rode them often on (#8301-8371) Kingsbridge routes. You mentioned #8038 on the Q15. I didn't know that Flushing depot ran these buses. Were there many of them at Flushing depot. Even though I grew up in the Bronx I was a bit familiar with Flushing depot buses as I saw them often on the Q44 at West Farms Sq.
It seemed that Flushing ran 8001-8040 and Jamaica ran 8041-8080 or something like that. Through Flushing Main St., I would see the Q17, which is how I remember the numbering. I can still remember riding on a World's Fair-style #7 train and seeing a bat wing bus at Flushing depot signed up for the 17A!!! How great was all that!!!
Actually, those buses only lasted in Queens for 2 or 3 years. When the 4300's & 4400's came in, the Flushing ones went to Fresh Pond & the Jamaica ones went to Crosstown. To the best of my memory, Crosstown never put in side sign curtains, they were either blank, or had an improper Queens sign posted.
How many remember the difference in the engine sounds in the 8000 series Bat Wing buses depending if the air conditioning was on or off/broken? They made this strange whine. Also with the a/c working, those buses were pitifully slow.
Yes, I remember - They sounded completely different when the A/C was on. I came to like that sound and sorely missed it when they were retired. I rode a WMATA TDH-5304 with A/C on and it sounded the same. BTW - WMATA still operate numerous GMC Fishbowls during peak hours and the A/C work on most of them.
if im not mistaken these bat wing buses (ta8800series)also had side motorized destination signs does anybody remember that??these turned out of the ulmer park depot in bklyn in the 70s and later were used on staten islands castleton depot
I drove the 8000s and most of the GMC's/Flixibles that followed. The air conditioning sound on those (and older fishbowls) came from the fact that the a/c was belt driven as a power take off from the engine. It took 20 to 25 per cent of the power. Later buses (8800, 4300, 6000 series and all Flxibles above the 4600 series used electrically driven air conditioning without belts which took less power and did not make any particular sound.
Well that explains why I never saw these buses as they were probably in Brooklyn by 1970. I used to see Flushing buses laying over between trips on the Q44 near to W Farms Sq on my way to and from school. I immediately knew that the Flushing buses were "different" from what I was used to which was MaBSTOA buses at Kingsbridge, Coliseum and West Farms depots. I can remember when the 4400's and 7100 Flxibles were the new buses at Flushing depot.
I remember the 4300s in QV (on the Q44A (now Q46)) when i always talked my mom into taking the bus to my grandmother's house 10 blocks away when i was like 6 years old
The 5516-5525 series also had the "Manhattan and Bronx Surface Transit Operating Authority" lettering below the windows on the sides of the buses, since it couldn't go along the roofline as in the past. The 6701-6900 order then used the "OA" plaque at the front of the bat wings.
Were 5516-25 the ones withough the A/C? You'd think there were more than that, since you saw so many of them running in Manhattan in TV and movies. Too bad none of those were saved.
5515-5525 and 6701-8900 did not have A/C. All 8XXX including the 88XX were air conditioned.
The first NYCTA/MaBSTOA buses purchased with air conditioning were the TDH 5303s with bat wings (TA #s8001-8202; OA #s8301-8780). All subsequent orders came with a/c.
In fact, during the winter months a silver metallic cover was placed over the a/c condenser grill on these buses.
By the way, these buses had a white roof instead of the standard green paint.
In the early 1980's 126st depot had an 8000 still in it's original green. I think it was 8198 or something close to that.
Slightly different subject -- Does anyone remember the first test air conditioned buses the TA bought in the early 60s? I think they were in the 3200 series and I remeber they had the silver strip running next to the front side lights and the square light casings on the side (the silver strip disappeared and the casings were rounded off by GM after that).
I can vaguely remeber those buses later in life, I think running on Staten Island. Of course by then the air conditioning didn't work, but the AC on buses for a long time wasn't really reliable.
Those buses were originally owned by Fifth Avenue Coach and were #1 - 10 in FACO's original order for New Look (Fishbowl) GMs in 1960. When MABSTOA took over FACO's routes in 1962, these buses were of course inherited with the rest of the FACO fleet. They were repainted the standard one tone dark green of the 1960's TA bus fleet, and renumbered 3211-3220. The original soft seats were replaced with NYCTA standard issue fiberglass, longitudinal in the front half and red transverse in the rear. I remember these buses turning up all over the city - for a while on the M104 Broadway; then another time on the B68 Coney Island Ave.
The larger group of ex-FACO Fishbowls without A/C were renumbered in the 3100 series and generally ran on Bronx routes out of Kingsbridge Depot - such as BX 1, 2, 11, 19, 20, 34, 35, 37, 38, 41. I'm using the old route #s, not today's revised ones.
I do remember these fishbowls (TDH-5301) on Kingsbridge routes. I guess this explaines why these buses had the split (2 pieces/red & black) destination sign while the NYCTA 5301's had the traditional one piece sign. Also - I didn't the ex-FACO fishbowls have a side sign just behind the front door. At this time - I guess it was about 1989-70 Kingsbridge also had a few Old-look GM's (in their two-tone green) operating. I'm guessing they would have been TDH-5105's??? My memory of this time is somewhat vague because I was turning 5 yrs old in 1970 - but I was fascinated with buses and subways at the time. From our Window I could actually distinguish a West Farms (BX36) from a Kingsbridge (BX20) by the type and the radio antenna on top.
These buses did have a sign box directly behind the front door. However, the MaBSTOA & NYCTA non-bat wing buses had a sign box directly in front of the rear door. the MaBSTOA readings were the route and routing (106 42 St. Xtown) The word "crosstown" was not spelled out!
Also, the old loks you referred to were not TDH 5105 but TDH 5106s.
The only 102" wide old look buses that were operated in NY were the TDH 4510's.
But Carey Trabnsportation did operate used TDH 5105s, ex-New Orleans,
in the mid 1960's along 42 Street. I believe this was a shuttle between Penn Station and Grand Central.
Thanks for the explanation. Like the bat wing test buses in the 5500 series, the 3200 ACs were ones I would see once in a blue moon growing up, and I could never figure out why the TA would have bought AC buses in the early 60s, then go back to the non-ACs until 1968. Since Fifth Ave. Coach bought them in the first place, then the TA's first air conditioned bus order was actually the 8000 series.
I also remember the split designation signs, which I associated with the old GM buses (with the `eyeglasses' rear windows) that had the front destination signs extended slightly out from the front of the bus. I think those were also the first buses with the `self service' rear doors.
I did ride the A/C FACO buses while they were at KB. If I remember correctly... didn't some of them have grey seats in them. I was very young and used to MABSTOA which used green seats or green/red seating - and at this time TA and OA buses being transferred to different depots generally stayed in their respective divisions - Unlike now where a bus at Ulmer Park today can get sent to Gun Hill tomorrow.
once an old bus is at Ulmer park, it aint going anywhere else!!!!!
these bat wing buses 8800 series had side motorized destination signs if anyone can remember ulmer park depot had these and in the early 80s were in staten island
> The larger group of ex-FACO Fishbowls without A/C were renumbered
> in the 3100 series and
> generally ran on Bronx routes out of Kingsbridge Depot - such as
> BX 1, 2, 11, 19, 20, 34, 35,
> 37, 38, 41. I'm using the old route #s, not today's revised ones.
Which brings up the question - why were the route numbers changed anyway? Perhaps one-third to one-half of the Bronx bus bus routes had their numbers changed: the Bx38 became Bx3, Bx13 became Bx22, Bx29 became Bx15, lots of others, without any significant, or in most cases any, changes to the routes themselves. Why was this done?
I'm not sure about the Bronx, but in Manhattan, they changed some of the route numbers because there was duplication between the MBOSTA-operated line numbers and those under TA operation (The M15 was the route designation for both the First/Second Ave. line and the 23rd Street Crosstown for years, until the finally changed the 23rd designation in the 1970s)
It was about 1980 when lots of Bronx bus routes switched numbers. I heard it was to reduce confusion. For some time after the change some buses had a placard in the windshield that had the old route number with a line through it and the new route number next to the old.
There were two major renumberings of Bronx bus routes.The first was on July 1, 1974 when the bus maps were introduced.This eliminated any duplicate numbers and also the ABC routes,i.e. Bx12A,Bx12B,Bx15A,Bx15B etc. The second renumbering occurred in 1984 and this is the puzzeling one as many routes simply changed numbers for no apparent reason.In at least one case two routes;the Bx-30 149 St Crosstown and the Bx-31 Southern Blvd were combined and the new route called Bx-19 149 St-Southern Blvd.Some routes such as the Bx-21 Bronx-Astoria and Bx-32 St Ann's Av also quit running at this time.Sorry I don't have more info.
I have in my eclectic collection a sample of the split front destination sign from one of these buses. Among the cool readings is one for "FREEDOMLAND". If anyone cares, I can provide a list of the readings. There is a mix of terminals in both the Bronx and Manhattan.
Sign is in really good shape, except for some fraying along the sides. (The canvas/cloth is chipping away.)
There is one bus roll sign I would love to get my hands on. It would be one out of an Intercity Bus Co. bus. They were the orange-and-brown buses that ran out of Port Authority and the GWB bus terminals. They operated Northeast Coach Lines, which had a line that ran right through where we lived in Pompton Plains. These were the buses we used to take into the city. There were various route numbers which I remember seeing as the driver would change signs: 30, 35, and 41, among others, with destinations such as Ridgewood, Paterson, Culver Lake, and the one I remember best, Newfoundland. The were numerous New York destinations: 30/New York/41st St. 8th Ave./Port Authority Term; New York City/P. A. Term. via Lincoln Tunnel; and New York Express, among others.
Intercity was already bankrupt in the late 60s, but kept on rolling. They were still in operation when we moved to Connecticut in 1973; I don't know if they're still around.
Intercity and another bankrupt North Jersey operator, Orange and Black Bus Co., continued in operation through the 1970's under NJ Dept of Transportation supervision. A subsidiary company of Transport of New Jersey (TNJ) called Maplewood Equipment Co. was set up to operate Intercity and Orange and Black routes; I believe NJ DOT had title to the buses. In 1980 or so, when NJ Transit was founded, the first bus companies it took over were TNJ and Maplewood Equipment.
The name "Maplewood Equipment" was of course reflective of the fact that TNJ's bus operations were based in Maplewood. TNJ was the successor to the best know of New Jersey's bus companies, Public Service.
I remember a reference to Orange and Black Bus on a radio commercial for Palisades Amusement Park narrated by a Hal Jackson following a jingle for the park itself: "Palisade has the rides, Palisade has the fun, come on over," etc. Sandy Becker used to plug it, too, on Channel 5. Now, THAT was a big park! I think about it whenever I'm heading up the Henry Hudson Parkway and approaching the GWB, and look across the river to where it used to be. We managed to "come on over" a few times in 1967-68, but never had a chance to check out the monorail which was added in, I believe, 1969.
Re: Freedomland ...
That land has laid dormant for a long time, but soon a new type of family entertainment facility with exist there ... a movie & Toys-R-Us
The Gun Hill TA bus depot also uses some of the land, but you can't board any of the rides there ....
Mr t__:^)
Looks like a driving range or something with those big poles there.
By the time the TA and Fifth Avenue Coach bought fishbowls the look of the front lights was already established. In fact, I don't think they ever had a square light housing.
The closes bus to J. Lee's description "...with square light casing and silver strip next to the front side lights..." is the Flxible-Twin Coach operated by Fifth Avenue Coach in 1961 as a demo. (These features were found on the very early Flxible new looks) It was numbered 100 and it was a model F2D6V-401-1. Its side windows were the "strange" configuration that CTA used at the time.
This bus did not have air conditioning. It eventually wound up as part of Chicago Transit Authority's vast Flxible-Twin Coach fleet in the early 1960s.
The early air conditioning demos that operated in New York City were those used by Fifth Avenue. #3100, TDH 5106 (today its part of the Museum fleet with a great color scheme!) and #3200, TDH 5105, it wound up in New Orleans (See the home page for Motor Bus Society [www.motorbussociety.org]).
I can't speak about FACO, but the TA definitely had the original fishbowls (TDH-5301) with the square marker lights. The TA 10XX, 20XX and 21XX had these lights.
I remeber the square marker (side orange) lights on the TA's First Ave. M-15 route back in the 60s, when the 500 series ran on the line. The 3600-3700 series which also ran at the same time (before the 8100 bat wings arrived) had the oval lights. I also think the 500 series had the all-green interior seats, while the 3600-3700 had the green in front with the red behind the exit door.
I'm a bit too young to remember the 3-digit fishbowls, but I do remember the 3600 at 126th St depot. I thought the the front seats on these were gray.
How about the 1 and 2 digit fishbowls? I can certainly remember buses on the Q15, with numbers like 69 (it had a funny horn, too.) I do remember seeing fishbowl #1.
Bring 'em back
Front destination signs on those guys out of Flushing were one piece cloth or canvas, just saying "15 BEECHHURST" or "14 WHITESTONE" or "12 CITY LINE". The operator had to crank the sign all the way to between the Q28 and Q31 readings to get to a sign that said "TO MAIN ST. FLUSHING SUB." Still gives me the chills, but I'll get over it.
Oops! Sorry to my fellow bat wing enthusiasts. I read J. Lee's message to fast for my own good. I thought he was talking about the directional signals on the side of the headlights.
Yes! FACO had the square marker lights and the silver strip. On the these early fishbowls the green standee windows were longer. They reached past that odd shape quarter window. Beginning with the TDH 5303s the marker light casing was rounded off (reverting back to the ones used on the old looks on the back sides of the bus, not the front because those had a longer streamline). And the green standee windows were shortened to end even with the quarter window.
If memory serves me right, the TA took the silver strips off the marker lights when the "M" logos were applied. Correct?
While looking through some of my files I found a news clipping from The Daily News dated April 1967.
The photos show MaBSTOA #8387 crushed by a 250 foot crane that had collapsed landing on the door side of the bus and on the bat wing. The accident happened at East 42nd Street and 2nd Avenue. No one was killed. According to the article the bus was nearly empty.
Interestingly, the picture of 3200 on the MBS web page looks suspicisously like DC Transit, which had a number of 5105 with AC, as well as GM Fishbowls from GM's first prodiction, which had square clearence lights (markers). This was in 1959, and the 5105's dated from 1958 or so.
The owner of DC Transit liked the colors on the 3200 and had his fleet of TDH 5105s delivered with the same scheme.
I remember that the destination/route signs were changed individually. For the curb side, there was a set of control buttons on the forward sign of the exit door mechanism housing. The driver would either lean out the window or hang out the exit door while pushing "up" or "down" buttons. For the driver's side, I do not remember where the buttons were placed, but I do know that they had to be near the driver's seat as he/she would have to hang out the driver's window to position the sign properly.
Agreed. Queens/Bklyn/Bx routes used actual destinations while Manhattan buses used the routes "104 Broadway" similar to the much smaller signs on older fishbowls.
Anyone want my Bronx Depot bat wing dest. sign?
The controls for the wing signs on the street side were located on the driver's control panel under the window.
I remember one driver who changed the sign by staying on the bus and using the rear view mirror!
These buses were the best?
Charles, I Would love the sign curtain. How do I contact you?
Regarding the fishbowls in the 8801-8933 series. Which buses had wings?
By the way, the wings on #7753 (a Flxible) was different than those used on the GMs.
I thought that 7753 had identical "Bat Wings" as the fishbowls. The "Bat Wings" on the Grumman 870 (#631) were definitely different - I think they were a bit smaller.
RE: Side signs all buses - It seemed that the rule was that on NYCTA buses the side signs displayed route number and destination while on MaBSTOA buses the side sign displayed route number and main street or area of operation (ex. "38 University Avenue", ")
In the Bronx I do remember an exception "12B Orchard Beach" "12B Pelham Golf Course" There may have been more.
Last night (Friday) I was comming back to Jamaica. I was luck enough
to get on the new double-decker diesel trains. There were nice inside
brand new seats, large windows on the doors, and a large washroom which flushes twice, once it flushes, second it releases the value to the tank. That sound is loud and scared the s**t out of me. I sat on the top level. The bottom level, I think is too low. You see people's feet when the train pulls into a station. Not to mention someone can kick the window. The had the heat on full blast for the most of the trip. The speed for the whole trip was diesel.(SLOW)! I though the new trains were going to go a lot faster.
On the top level there are two-single seats facing each other. The are very narrow so if two people seat there, there will be no leg room. The crew had trouble with the train, they had to reset the computer several times.
The trouble began when we got to Hicksville. A truck broke down on the crossing at Mineola. The crew came up with a plan. We rolled to Babylon and then followed the local train to Jamaica. Arrivel 1.5 hours behind schedule.
I heard & read in the NYCT Staten Island Transit Needs Assessment Study in the College of SI Park-n-Ride that NYCT was exploring a third route between Staten Island & Brooklyn which will start at the College of Staten Island. Does anyone have any information about this new route & if so, please post on the Subtalk.
This will be tied in with the S79
What has been proposed, repeatedly, since 1994 is an 's63' route, which would either travel the service roads to the SIE to Clove Rd to Victory Blvd and then the college, or follow the same route as the current s53 sservice, and then turn down Victory Blvd to the college. They've been talking about it (and expanded x10 service) for the last 4 years. They finally expanded x10 service in September. The s63 has yet to move past the 'proposal' stage.
Interestingly, there are codes for the signs for the s59, (Richmond Ave bus, former s4) to operate to the college, but there is no such service as of yet.
-Hank
Hi, I'm hoping someone can help us with travel directions from Hoboken to Radio City Music Hall. We will be traveling from Philadelphia to Hoboken, and would like to jump over to NY to see the Radio City Christmas Show. We looked into info on the PATH and the Ferry, but neither appear to get us close enough. Any help you can provide would be appreciated!!
The easiest way is to take PATH to 33rd Street. Then switch to the subway (you don't have to go outside, but another fare is required - $1.50). Take the uptown B,D,F or Q train two stops to the 47th-50th Street-Rockefeller Ctr. Station.
I was curious to know how a new bus gets to NYC. Is it driven in or loaded on a low-boy for a miles free drive and what's the first stop for a new bus. Is there a central receiving area for new buses.
When I was at Mother Hale depot in 1996 we received our 9000's by flatbed tractor trailer trucks. One or two a day for about a month!
does anyone know if the buses come with NYC markings on them when they are delivered. what about the buses that went to atlanta two years ago for the olympics, did they identify that they were nyc buses.? thanks
Yes, new buses are delivered with NYCT logo/fleet numbers in place. Those 1996 Nova RTS that went to Atlanta did have NYCT markings also. I believe their was another decal (probably Olympic or MARTA) applied to the buses also. It seems that when these decals were removed that also removed the NYCT and fleet number from the side. Many of these 89XX and 90XX buses are at Jamaica depot
I think the method of delivery depends on the property. SEPTA and NJ Transit, for example, ferry drivers to the manufacturing plant who drive the buses back to the operating property. I have also witnessed large fleets of buses going to other properties on the Penna Turnpike, I-70, etc.
When I worked for a 'private' school bus company (Pierce Coach Line, Roslyn) we would pile into a van on a Friday evening, and drive through the night to High Point, NC where we would pick up mint school buses. We'd start the journey north, in convoy, on Saturday morning. Then we'd overnight in Newark, Delaware (at the Holiday Inn as I recall), and complete the trip back to LI on Sunday. The buses did not yet have our company name painted on, and we used temporary license plates as the permanent registrations had not yet been done.
The NYC "privates" also loaned some buses to Atlanta. They kept their colors & were diven in a convoy. We had a lot of volunteers, but a private company drove them their & back. They (Atlanta) also ran the piss out of them while at Olympics.
Also the new Orions are driven down from upstate NY.
Mr t__:^)
Back when the Grummans were out of service, I remember driving Washington DC 5306 type buses out of Amsterdam Depot. Alot of TA operators and some Mabstoa were taken to Washington to deadhead back with these buses. Is it true that some of those were lost when the Edgewater Piers collapsed. I know they also lost a few 8000s, some with those "batwings". Also alot of the 46-4700s were renumbered. Those "flexibles" had the large rear 3 piece windows. Were they renumbered to 7400s?
Yes, those Flxibles were 4000-4204 TA and 4600-4720 MABSTOA and they were renumbered in the 72XX, 73XX and 74XX series.
Correction: That was MABSTOA 4600-4727
Thanks Wayne. The 44 and 4500s were model 5306s?
The 4300 & 4400 were assigned to NYCTA and I believe they would be T6H-5305A since they're 102 inches wide. 5306 would be a 96 inch wide bus such as some of those WMATA fishbowls that were in New York. The 4500 were a very small group of MABSTOA express buses (#4500-4505) These were either T6H-5309A or 5310A - my guess is 5310A.
Does anybody have a somewhat complete listing of all NewLooks (Flx and Fishbowl) delivered to NYCTA/MABSTOA listed by year, make and model up to and including the Blitz remanufactured GMs?
And the years that these buses were on the property?
And what depots that each group more or less served in?? (Like I can remember some mid 70-s Flx's that served in Flushing Depot when I was a kid in the 7100s series, and a sprinkling of green 3700s, and some old Flxs without a/c in the 5600s)
din 1996 they did come on flatbeds. mci and nova buses currently are driven by transporters(employees of the manuf.) WHO ARE THEN FLOWN BACK TO THE PLANT PROBABLY AT NYCT EXPENSE. buses arrive at atlantic diesel in lodi nj. drivers from nyct go there and get them.
the ferry has free busses. they have one that goes across 33,42, 49 steets. there are also packages for the show and the ferry.
When did they start a ferry from Hoboken to midtown? I thought the only ferry from Hoboken went to World Financial Center.
The ferry from Hoboken operates to the WFC. However I believe that last year during the Holiday Season there was weekend service to the 38 Street Pier.
Another option is to take either NJ Transit bus #126 or the Red Apple Hoboken-Port Authority bus to the Port Authority Bus Terminal
(personally, I would recommend the #126 -- the fare is slightly higher [$1.50 vs. $1.25 for Red Apple], but NJ Transit's buses are generally newer and in better shape).
From the PABT, take any northbound (uptown) 8th Avenue subway train (A-C or E) to 59th Street, cross to the opposite direction and take a southbound 6th Avenue train (B or D) to 47-50th Streets.
BTW, if you're travelling from Philadelphia, why don't you take the train directly into the City? Follow the same subway directions as above to get to Radio City.
NJ Transit also offers special packages in which they give you free transportation to New York (train or bus -- but NOT to the George Washington Bridge Terminal!) with certain show tickets.
1-800-626-7433 is NJ Transit's information number. Ask, and you shall be informed . . .
PATH won't get you close enough? Pooh! Here's what to do: Take the PATH train to 33rd Street, hop off and grab yourself a B, D, F, or Q (if it's running) train and go TWO STOPS to 47-50th Street, Rockefeller Center. The station's right at RCMH's front door.
Wayne
Would anyone have a listing -- alphabetical, computer textfile (.txt) preferred -- of current stations within the MTA/NYCTA system?
Let's try this from a different platform, ok?... Would anyone be able to send me an email attachment [pharley@fix.net] of an alphabetical listing of current stations within the MTA/NYCTA subway system -- or direct me to where I might find such a listing (i.e., at a WebSite)? Your help would be greatly appreciated, and would be rewarded in the project my associates and myself are working on. Thank you, and Happy Holidays...
Try:
http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/rails/linearmap.html
-dave
Thank you, Dave. That's quite helpful.
Let's try this from a different platform, ok?... Would anyone be able to send me an email attachment [pharley@fix.net] of an alphabetical listing of current stations within the MTA/NYCTA subway system -- or direct me to where I might find such a listing (i.e., at a WebSite)? Your help would be greatly appreciated, and would be rewarded in the project my associates and myself are working on. Thank you, and Happy Holidays...
Try:
http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/rails/linearmap.html
-dave
Thank you, Dave. That's quite helpful.
For help on a short story, I would like to correspond with any
Female Subway operators on the number 1 or number 9 lines. You
don't need to be working that line now, just have worked it in
the past. Thanks. Paul Gloeckner Seattle, Washington
what are the realistic chances of scoring a high-paying job after being with the system for a while and working up the ladder?
"High paying job" is all relative. To some, an entry level job with the NYCT System can be considered high paying. For example, a Cleaner now earns in excess of $17/Hr. That's almost $36,000/year without overtime or night differential. Maintainers and Inspectors earn around $22/Hr. Some, like RCIs and Electronic Equipment maintainers are earning over $24/Hr. (that's just about $50,000 without night differential and overtime). i've known of Train Operators who have earned over $100,000 but the Williamsburg Bridge incident put the brakes on such abuses. As for moving up the ladder, Supervisors earn mid to upper 50s while managers are all over the place depending on the work location and responsibility.
By the way, most don't 'score' a high paying job. Except for the occassional 'nepatism' incident or the 'affirmative action flash', most people with the higher paying jobs, have earned them or at least have paid their dues.
You know, all this talk of NYCTA jobs lately had me wondering: wouldn't it be funny if, say five years from now, we all found out we all were working for the TA? Hey, it COULD happen :)
Side note: The few train ops I've talked to really seemed to enjoy their jobs. Is this a normal thing for the NYCTA?
As we've seen from some postings, there are some people who not only hate their TA Jobs but hate the organization as well. Then there are the others who love trains and view their jobs as getting paid for working at their hobby. The majority do their job competantly, their feelings hovering somewhere around neutral.
I make no bones about the fact that this is the best job I ever had (and I've had a few). There are a few others, like Subway-Buff who kept pounding on doors until one opened. If love and dedication to the job make a difference, she'll be in supervision before long. As far as jobs go, you could work for worse organizations.
I agree,I work for the FD Dispatch,I love my job,and also view it as another Hobby ,beside Rapid Transit topics
It is a nice feeling to wake up,and go to work ,on a job and hobby Site ,,at the same time
Steve
$50000 a year salary probably won't buy you much in the NYC metro area.
What do you mean when you say a train operator making over $100,000 is an abuse? You sound like the NY Post or the Daily News. We don't take home that money and we have 5 1/2% pension deducted from our take home pay. First of all, I don't know of anybody working the road making that kind of money. Maybe a work train guy, who isn't constantly moving a train around , because at times when there is so much work going on, particularly on weekends, no one qualified is around for a relief. Secondly, the abuse is if a train operator signs on & goes home. If he/she is actually out there on the property working, it is not an abuse. Remember: ABUSE=PADDING THE PAYROLL. And that was not done. Finally, I grew up learning if you work long hours, you have a better chance for financial success.
According to "Cinders" (Phila Chapter NRHS's newsletter), five Budds will be retained in the fleet for revenue collection - all single unit cars. These will be 617, 625, 628, 629 and 632. So, there will be some rejoicing for Budd fans after all.
can anyone tell ma about the following??
a) how many new MCIs are on order. and are they going to replace Staten Islands Express bus fleet?? They have taken over the streets of Midtown. I read that some of their 9250s went to Jamaica and Queens Village, to replace the relics. is that true? if so how many?
b) with the surplus will theybe buying new buses, and if so does this include the new 4900s and the 5000's where are they going to?? which depots??
thanks guyz
180 new mcis are on order. yukon has received 129 of them. the rest are being delivered to castleton.there may be an option for 100 more. 3 orion 111-113 went to queens and a few 9200s. depots in all boros but staten island will receive novas 4900-5249.i can give you the list if you want.
For those of you that missed the trip to the catacombs of the NYC subways ... here's a brief description of what we saw:
- Trains & more trains wizzed by: A,B,C,D,E,F,N,R,S (Times Sq), and 1,2,3,7,9
R32, R38, R46, R62A, R68 (one of these is the BMT Slant).
- Towers: At 42nd St & Essex St
- 8th Ave & 42nd - the lower level one track (unused platform)
- BRT Trolley terminal at Essex St. (we could still see 5 or 6 loop tracks & O/H wire still where they were left 50 years ago)
- August Bellmont's secret entrance to the Knickerbocker Hotel
- Platforms at 42nd: Shuttle, N/R, 1/2/3/9, A/E/C, 7
- Platforms at West 4th: Add - B/D/F/Q
- Platforms at Essex St.: F/J/M/Z
It was a lot of history & a lot of walking with time for a slice & a Bud midway ... I enjoyed it very much ! Thanks to Andy Sparberg and his two assistants (Mark & Clarence).
P.S. I also met up with several SubTalkers !
Mr t__:^)
Thurston.. you mean to tell me you were able to get tickets even though you said it was sold out?
=(
It was just dumb luck. They have a waiting list, and sometimes a friend may end up with an extra ticket, i.e. I didn't sneak on !
P.S. Anyone who wants to know more of the details of the trip, please feel free to click on my name & send me e-mail off-line. I'll be happy to reply. But please understand I'm not a buff (at least not yet) so my knowlkedge may be limited.
P.P.S. I discovered another SubTalker lives on the LIRR Babylon line & ended up ridding home with him (there's almost 1/2 dozen that I know of ... for me it makes this site even more friendly ... I'm just an old country buy at hart that use to know everybody in town).
Mr t__:^)
> please understand I'm not a buff (at least not yet)
Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.
--Mark
Yes, and you'll love it. We are EVERYWHERE!!!!
Mr. t:
Sounds like you had a good time. Could you provide a little more info on the 8th Ave. lower level station? How did you get down there? A thread here a few months ago mentioned that the staircase on the downtown platform had been boarded over.
Also, was there any mention of any trains using that platform recently, such as during emergencies or diversions? Or could you see any evidence of use? You may recall that in that thread, one of our SubTalkers claimed to have passed through the station during a diversion!
Todd, et, al, Re: 8th Ave at 42nd Street
- Our host said that one of the long term plans for this level was to allow the #7 to turn onto it, then proceed to 34th where it would use the lower level there as a termius. Phase II might have been to allow the #7 to coutinue under the 8th Ave for a while. Such use would require an expansion to two tracks first.
- The track config. allows the E, Southbound (there's only one track) to come in from Queens (it's already under the A/C at 50th). I could see only Southbound signals, it was RED, & was told the the 3rd rail was probally live.
- Getting there: We went down through a locked door & were told it was the only access (about mid platform). Others ventured further up & down the platform ... I've seen the size of the rats before, & decided not to push my luck.
- Activity, it was dark & hard to see the shinnyness of the rails, maybe someone else looked closer.
Mr t__:^)
So they actually did leave one staircase accessible to the lower level. There used to be several all along the southbound platform, but they've all been cemented over. I vivdly remember the southernmost staircase; you'd never guess it was there now. Was there any mention of the escalator which led from the extreme southern end of the mezzanine to the lower level? (It, too has been cemented over.) I remember seeing it as well; it was marked, "Entrance to Aqueduct Subway Special". How about all those years when the northern end was used as an underpass between the downtown and uptown platforms? I remember using it a few times in the late 60s.
I understand the 7 tracks end right at the other side of the wall of the lower level at 41st St.
If the 7 tracks are right on the other side of that wall, has anyone proposed taking the 7 across the unused E track and extending it west to the Javits center? While bringing it down to 34th street would be helpful (assuming that there is excess capacity along 8th ave) for some riders, getting subway service to the Javits Ctr. would also be good... Of course, it would cost a lot more.
How would 7 trains be able to serve the 8th ave. line at 34th? They would not reach the platforms!!
If they ever do the West Street rebuild and fix up the Hudson piers, you could even think about running the 7 over to the Javits Center and then down (or more likely above) the center median of the highway the way they do in Chicago and on I-66 in Virginia and sent it down to the World Trade Center.
Or, since there was some discussion ont he board a few months ago about the 7 going across to N.J., you could run the lines directly under the lanes of the northern tube of the Lincoln Tunnel at 40th Street, which would probably save a bunch of money over a brand new tunnel. Of course the Port Authority would have a stroke over someone messing up their tunnel, but a train from, say, a park-ride at the Meadowlands would be a lot faster than that backup at the toll booths is every day.
Ah.. the Jersey perspective...
I don't think it'll ever come over to Jersey. Why... NY tax money. They won't fund anything out to New Jersey while they still feel Port Authority is favoring New Jersey. New Jersey wouldn't have any part of it either because they'd want it to go through Port Authority, a.k.a. PATH, and not NYCT.
Would be a neat idea.. mighty expensive and I do think PA would have a serious cow with them messing up the Tunnel... Stop it at Hoboken too.. near Stevens and the train station.
One West Side improvement could occur. If the LIRR to GCT is ever built, there would be some leftover capacity at Penn. In that case, Metro North has toyed with the idea of running Hudson Line (via Spuyten Duyvil Bridge) and New Haven Line (via Hell Gate Bridge) to Penn Station (the Harlem Line has no direct way to get there).
If Metro North Trains indeed came down the West Side, they might try a station at, say, 72nd St. Perhaps some old stations on this line already exist. Upper West Siders are as rich as Westchester residents, so perhaps the Metro Northers wouldn't mind having them stand in the doorway for a few minutes before switching to the subway at Penn. This would take pressure off the 72nd St stop on the IRT.
Hudson & New Haven line service to Penn is a neat idea, but I doubt a 72nd street stop would fly. The tunnel is already under Riverside Park at that point, isn't it? If so, it would likely raise the ire of park advocates, not to mention incur a substantial expense building a station so close to the river (shades of Westway) and within an already-existing tunnel. I doubt you'd find many Upper West Side commuters willing to face Penn Station crowds just to avoid 72nd street IRT crowds.
However, I doubt that you'd have much capacity freed up at Penn after a switch of some LIRR service to GCT. By the time that happens, Midtown Direct and Amtrak high-speed might be victims of their own success, creating a capacity crunch under the Hudson (and, depending on where things turned around, under the East River too). Some Regional Plan Association report from a couple years back seemed to be aware of the IND 42nd street obstruction, and thought it could be overcome. They called for the #7 to be extended to Secaucus Transfer and the Meadowlands. It might be easier (maybe even cheaper) to couple this with a new Amtrak/commuter rail tunnel rather than try to get something out of the Lincoln Tunnel's Jersey side.
-Daniel Casey
I've heard rumors that Metro-North will be offering New Haven Via Penn in the near future. IMHO, that'd be WAY COOL, if only because a)It'd make my life easier and b)railfan seat ride over the Hell Gate!!!
Heck, maybe the could rebuild and reopen a few NYW&B......
Anyway....
Yeah, it'd would be cool, but I don't see it happening anytime soon. Any new New Haven equipment is still gonna have to retain dual power (I've heard rumors of loco hauled, al la NJT), because the New haven line can easily swamp Penn with trains.
If this is done and the 7 is extended to the Meadowlands, wouldn't the whole Redbird fleet have to meet FRA regulations? This is hard to do on such old cars.
I think so long as you did it with tracks dedicated only to the 7, the FRA rules wouldn't apply. If they ever do link up the IRT and PATH in the future (right now I think New York has the only subway system completely within city limits) then the FRA rules would come into play, or you'd have to get a waiver for PATH which would probably lead to a union dispute.
PATH has tried on numerous attempts to be relieved of FRA regulations and every time PATh was told "NO!" Ther reason PATH has to use the FRA regs is due to a connection between their HCMF (Harrison Car Maintenance Facillity) and the AMTRAK Northeasdt Corridor.
IF NYCT ever connected the subway to PATH then PATH type cars must be used(they have different trucks and I believe they are slighly shorter than IRT). Also since there would be a connection then NYCT would need to comply with FRA regs system wide . (I say system-wide since the 7 connects to the rest of the subway via Queensboro Plaza.) Steve can fill us in but among the items needed are compressors for each car, couplers instead of drawbars, internal and external grab bars for each door. Also, here again Steve can comment, the FRA regs would increase maintenance due to more stringent requirements and crew costs also would rise. The only was NYCT would escape is with tracks reserved for NYCT only with no PATH connection.(Cross platform would work with no track connectionsd.)
[PATH has tried on numerous attempts to be relieved of FRA regulations and every time PATh was told "NO!" The reason PATH has to use the FRA regs is due to a connection between their HCMF (Harrison Car Maintenance Facillity) and the AMTRAK Northeast Corridor.
IF NYCT ever connected the subway to PATH then PATH type cars must be used(they have different trucks and I believe they are slighly shorter than IRT). Also since there would be a connection then NYCT would need to comply with FRA regs system wide.]
I had thought FRA regulations applied only if transit cars shared tracks with mainline railroads - in other words, a non-revenue connection like the one in Harrison shouldn't matter. Or is this not correct?
Don't forget Ditch Lighting and how LIRR added the triangle lights to the MU fleet to comply.
Nope, FRA regs are in effect for LIRR, each MU unit is considered a engine or locomotive and has to be inspected as such.
A lot said for electric locos hauling unpowered units like NJT no?
FRA regs state that its regulations do not apply to "Rapid transit operations in an urban area not connected with the general railroad system of transportation". They don't distinguish between revenue and non-revenue. In fact, PATH has two such connections;the aforementioned one at Harrison,and another with Conrail at "C" yard in Jersey City. In the Jersey City case,Conrail actually operates over PATH trackage for a short distance to serve a local industry.This might be construed as "revenue" service,the revenue being Conrail's.
In any case,these connections were the reason for FRA's refusal to exempt PATH from its regulation. This case might also be why NYCT removed its connection to LIRR at Linden.
But technically, doesn't the trackage for the NY&SBRR(sp?) count as a connection to an existing railroad? Or has the area around the docks been pretty much cut off?
As explained to me,the South Brooklyn (SBK),is FRA regulated. As SBK handles the actual interchange with other railroads,NYCT remains isolated from a direct connection with the "outside world". The exact details are something for the lawyers to ponder.
AFAIK,the trackage west of 3rd Ave. is still in service. Recent threads on this board report that the the track was rebuilt to allow for construction of a store and its parking area,indicating plans for continued use.
---You would think that the catenary-powered New Haven trains could travel to Penn Station without problems, but I have heard it suggested that they can't, because the voltage or frequency on the Hell Gate section of the line is different, and the New Haven MU equipment can't handle it. Does anyone know for sure?
If they plan to do this, they probably should open stations at Co-op City and Parkchester. Maybe one in Astoria too. That would provide a Bronx-Queens transit link without passing through Manhattan. How about puting platforms along the Queens approach to the Hell Gate Bridge where it crosses over the "N" line Ditmars Ave. station? Stairs (and elevators for the disabled) leading to/from the "N" platforms. I don't suppose that will happen--for one thing, where would they put the turnstiles?
New Jersey isn't in love with the PATH any more than New York is. Besides there are already interagency service agreements in the area to serve as an example. New Jersey Transit operates trains on behalf of the MTA (Metro North) to Port Jervis and the MTA (Metro North) operates trains on behalf of Conn D.O.T. to New Haven. There is no reason that the MTA (NYCT) couldn't operate trains on behalf of NJT or something like that.
The fact is another rail tunnel between NJ and NY will have to be built within the next 20 years. But there are already plans on the drawing board for twinning the tunnel to Penn Station which would provide the needed capacity without involving the already overburdened #7 train.
Speaking of which (Penn Station, that is). I just rode in and out of Penn for the first time in 5 or 6 years. What a stinking hole. This is no station to serve as the gateway to New York City. Amtrak should bite the bullet and return to Grand Central :-)
If you added enough trains to cover the extra distance, I don't think the 7 would be that overburdened by extending the line to NJ, since most people coming in from either Queens or New Jersey would be getting off at Times Square, 5th Ave. or Grand Central and not traveling all the way through Manhattan.
My feeling about the tunnel is it just seems like it would be less exepensive to run the 7 straight across 41st Street and then under the north tube of the Lincoln Tunnel, where you could just dig below the roadbed and put the tracks in, instead of going through the dredging and prefab-tunnel placement ordeal they took so long to complete on the 63rd Street project. SEPTA already has a line running into N.J. from Philadelphia, so it's not like having the MTA do it would be breaking any revolutionary ground.
[My feeling about the tunnel is it just seems like it would be less exepensive to run the 7 straight across 41st Street and then under the north tube of the Lincoln Tunnel, where you could just dig below the roadbed and put the tracks in, instead of going through the dredging and prefab-tunnel placement ordeal they took so long to complete on the 63rd Street project. SEPTA already has a line running into N.J. from Philadelphia, so it's not like having the MTA do it would be breaking any revolutionary ground.]
Wouldn't construction on either end of the Lincoln Tunnel make total mess a lot worse? And just how do you get a train out of the Jersey side, anyway? It would seem to involve boring or blasting through the palisade (imagine doing that in the middle of all that traffic) and would entail *very* deep level stations for a substantial part of its legnth over there. In my original message, I suggested doing a double tunnel across the Hudson, i.e. two levels of tracks, like 63rd street--not a shared set for both Amtrak and subway.
And I'm assuming the Septa line you're talking about is the Lindenwold line, which isn't run by Septa or NJT but PATCO, an offshoot of the local bistate port authority. It's like the NY/NJ port authority in that it pisses everyone off, but differs from its more commonly known upstate cousin in that it doesn't actually *do* anything in the process.
-Daniel Casey
No I think he means that the R7 runs into Trenton, the R3 runs to West Trenton and the R2 runs to Delaware. Also NJT runs into 30th Street station (Phila.) for the Atlantic City Line - similar to the way it runs into NY Penn Station.
I cannot imagine how it would be less expensive to put a tunnel under the lincoln tunnel than did a new one.
First, the lincoln tunnel is a heavy structure that is designed to be resting on something. You can't just go and dig a hole underneath it. Things are generally waterlogged mud down there, so the new tunnel would have to support the lincoln tunnel - and thus be much heavier and costlier.
Next, how are you going to get underneath it? Nowadays, tunnels are made while floating and submerged into a pre-dug trench. This is because it is cheaper than tunnelling. You obviously cannot do that if you are putting the tunnel under one thats already there.
Lastly, there are major safety concerns. Digging under the lincoln would cause some risk of a rather catastrophic failure of the lincoln - from it being shifted & cracking open. This would be BAD if anyone was in there. So now you have to close the lincoln while you are digging the new tunnel. Not popular...
The northern (third) tube was built after the central and southern tubes, and is slightly seperated from the others, so you would still have four lanes open -- which admittedly would tick a whole bunch of people off, but I believe the Lincoln tubes were not pe-fab and sunk into the river, but were dug out, like the Holland (or the Steinway tunnel for the No. 7)
The topography on the Jersey side would create problems (real deep under union city, then probably elevated to get over the Hackensack River), but the number of passengers 20 to 25 trains per hour could carry under the Hudson from all those parking lots at the Meadowlands would definitely help some peoples' commute.
But as has been said, you would have to jump through a thousand hoops to ever link up the IRT and the PATH, and whoever the governor was when they closed the north tube to do the construction probably would lose the Northern New Jersey vote next election in a landslide, so this idea will probably remain in the pipe dream category for a long time.
But it still would be a lot more expensive than just building a tunnel independently from the Lincoln tunnel...
If the world went my way, I would have either the 7 or a IND-size line go from Times Sq. over to 10th Avenue, down 10th past the Javits Center through Chelsea, then turn east at 14 St, run on the L train tracks as far as 1st Avenue, then separate off, and have a station at 14 th St and Avenue C, Tompkins Sq (8th St.), Houston St. and Avenue C or B, then terminate at the 2nd Avenue (which already has its main entrance at 1st Avenue) stop on the F line. You get two subway-deprived neighborhoods to get subway service with construction of about 2 miles of ROW. Then one could go right from Flushing to Yonah Schimmel's Knishes at 2nd Avenue and Houston St. Ah...
And Katz's for brisket sandwiches! seriously, as a first maneuver a new station @ 14 & C would be a good idea, second, extend the L west & then north to serve the western Chelsea area. Logically it should tie into the IND as a tenth ave line at 53rd or perhaps to the 63rd st line under the park Note that these improvements are incremental but also relatively low disruption to existing services while in construction
You'd have to gouge the Avenue "C" station out of the tube, but that's doable. New stops along 10th Avenue: 19th Street, 26th Street,
34th Street (Javits center), then east under 42nd Street to terminate near 8th Avenue. All two-side-platform configurations (except the Times Square station, which would be the same as Myrtle Avenue), consistent with the designs along the remainder of the Canarsie line, with the appropriate station decorations (i.e. the 1920s geometric design with the hexagon icons). (Maybe they'll let me choose the tile color schemes! I have about twenty variants in my scrapbook ;-)
Love that Canarsie Line!
Wayne
I also had such an extravagent fantasy, but it involved the 6oth St line. Rather than turn south onto 7th Avenue, it would run over to the NY Central cut (room for two more tracks?) then down past the Javits and into 14th St. Service from Astoria to Canarsie. Next up, you connect a line along 2nd Avenue to the 60th St Tunnel and the 14th St tunnel. Da Loop, and trains from either tunnel could run it in either direction, clockwise or counterclockwise, before going back the way they came. The # 7 would be extended to the NY Central cut, for a transfer.
And maybe the slant R-40s could run on it. What do you think, Wayne?
Running the line out to 10th Ave. would be pretty straightforward - at least until you got to the Hudson River tracks leading into Penn Station.
Interestingly enough, the Canarsie line still ranks up there on my all-time list of most frequently traveled lines, even though I haven't been on it in years. I can still hear those BMT standards whining away at Ab above middle C at the lowest point in the 14th St. tunnel...
I'll be at the railfan window of #4399 when she makes the first trip up the new route. And the same folks who so lovingly recreated the twelve-foot stretch of mosaic at Graham Avenue will do the honors for the four new stops (I'll provide the basic design and color schemes)
How's this sound: (from my Canarsie Line Outtakes scrapbook)
19th Street: Icon-blue; background-mixed browns; main band- lt blue, lt yellow, white, dk blue; edge bands and borders- brighter yellow; diamonds- lt blue on brown; corner triangles: lt blue
26th Street: Icon-mixed green/brown; background-mixed olive/yellowish greens; main band- cream yellow, green, brown, beige, a few whites;
with a porcelain black border; edge bands and borders - chartreuse, tan, olive green, peach, w/white border; diamonds- yellow on brown.
corner triangles- cream yellow
34th Street: Icon-cobalt blue/indigo; background- black,grey,indigo;
main band- bright orange, yellow, cream, sky blue, very light grey;
edge bands and borders - sky blue; diamonds - orange on black
corner triangles- sky blue
Times Square: Icon - maroon/dark blue ; background - mixed dk blue & brown & tan; main band - lt blue, beige, tan, brown, dark blue; edge bands and borders - light blue/white border; diamonds - yellow on dark blue; corner triangles- tan or beige.
Icon will have letter "T" on it.
I can dream, can't I?
Wayne
Wayne- why 26 and not 23 (like 8th ave line and 6th ave line). The 23rd station could have exits at 23, 24 and 25 like at 8th ave,
Just to be different! Also 23rd would be too close to 19th (look what happened on the PATH) and there's a housing complex at 26th & 10th.
It would cover 28th Street AND 23rd street. I suppose there's the bus transfer issue though...
Wayne
Wayne has a good point but then why is 18th street on the # 1 still open when PATH closed 19th street and 18th on the Lex is gone?
Good question! Maybe because 14th Street-Union Square is just a little bit south of 14th Street itself. I remember Barney's being a retail presence in the area (no longer). Perhaps the neighborhood had some say in the matter. Anyway, the 18th Street station has undergone a facelift, with solid brown IND-style tile bands at the station ends, and nicely restored tablets with pearlescent tile lettering.
Wayne
Yet despite 18th Street's proximity to the much busier station at 14th, it seems to do decent business.
It may have to do with the fact that the 14th St. station at 7th Ave. extends down to 12th St., while Union Square, offset platforms and all, extends north of 14th St. Consequently, the now-abandoned 18th St. station at Park Ave. would be closer to Union Square than the 18th St. station at 7th Ave. is in proximity to 14th St.
Re: #7 & #8 at 34th ...
If you've ever come out of the LIRR and wanted to board the 8th Ave trains you may remember that you enter the subway system, then go UP to the platforms. This lower level at 34th is where the #7 could go with very little expense, vs. going further South or West.
Mr t__:^)
There have been lots of plans to extend the #7 -- either to a park and ride in NJ, or to the Javits. It comes down to transportation being a low priority, and the greedy construction industry/unions pricing themselves out of jobs.
It would be nice if budget policy was a tradeoff between taxpayers, schoolchildren, the sick elderly, etc. Actually, it is a question of who gets the money, corporate tax breaks, teachers, hospital workers, construction companies. The "customers" do not matter.
The construction unions and companies have lost this battle to Medicaid over the past three decades. If they were not so greedy -- if they could deliver new subway tunnel at $200 million per mile fast enough to have it open within one political term -- that might change.
Well, getting the 7 to the Javits center would extend service to a place that does not have it. How many 7 riders have a final destination of 34th St.? My impression is that that is not a large employment district. A lot of work to go one stop down 8th Avenue.
Plus, the lower level track is only one track and does not exist all the way to 34th. So a lot of construction would need to happen on an active line, somehow...
Re: [How many 7 riders have a final destination of 34th St.? My impression is that that is not a (lot) ... A lot of work to go one stop down 8th Avenue.]
My view is that it would be a start, i.e. a 2nd Ave type project seems to be too much for the politatians to undertake ... so extending the #7 to 8th Ave would have a lot of benifit all by itself, then you have to terminate the line somewhere AND 34th & 8th has a lower level available ... you mignt not even stop the #7 at 8th & 42nd, just go directly to 34th if the goal is to get to 8th Ave.
For the next phase you would then have several options:
- Continue down 8th & maybe turn onto the L
- Go further West
-- a. Javits Center
-- b. New Jersey
- Turn North after Javits and go for the pass ship terminals
- Turn East, via LIRR and take over the LIC branch and make a few stops on the way to Jamaica (with the LIRR Dual Modes maybe the LIRR doesn't want need that line anymore)
So they should have a GRAND PLAN, but if it has pieces that will have benifits along the way maybe it'll actually get started ????
Mr t__:^)
I wonder if there is any way to squeeze the 6th Avenue Path past Herald Square. If there were, NYC might be persuaded to allow the taxpayers of New Jersey to extend the PATH north of 33rd St, then west under the river, for a loop through Midtown -- if NJT took over the PATH and stopped draining the city via the Port Authority. I want city money and suburban money kept separate -- the city is drained enough as it is.
Perhaps it could swing over to, and up, 5th Avenue, and extend out to the parking lots in the Meadowlands and Secaucus, along with the new transfer point for Midtown Direct. NJT riders to Hoboken could get closer to their Midtown jobs via PATH -- those to Penn could get a free transfer since PATH would be an NJT line.
A subway should be able to 35,000 people an hour down a track in modest comfort -- comfort enough for a 10-15 minute ride. That's 140,000 people in two rush hours, given that trains would be coming in from both directions. Only 217,000 Manhattan workers lived in Northern NJ in 1990 (census data), and many worked Downtown -- which is served by a separate PATH line.
Re: [I wonder if there is any way to squeeze the 6th Avenue Path past Herald Square ... ]
I too have thought that extentions to the PATH on 6th Ave would be an excellent idea. The fact that it doesn't connect with either Penn, Grand Central, or Times Square seems to most limit the convience of it's use.
Mr t__:^)
PATH WAS supposed to be tied into Grand Central; the present terminal at 33rd St. was intended to be temporary. I don't know if it would be that easy to extend that line any further along 6th Ave., though. It's pretty well boxed in. The IND line surrounds it at 33rd St.; plus you have all the tracks out of Penn Station, plus the BMT Broadway line. It was difficult enough to thread the 6th Ave. line through that area; doing the same with PATH may be next to impossible.
I guess you'd have to move some of the fare collection areas, stairways to the platforms, etc. but if you could get it across to 35th St, you have the closed off tunnel to 40th St.
Hows the idea of connecting the Path to the 7 (either this way, or in the West Side or NJ somewhere--since that what this part of the thread was about), and severing either the connection to the N (If it was to be run by Path) or the NJT connections in NJ (So it could be TA and not have to meet FRA rules)
What ever happened to the plan to replace both the MTA and NJT with a Regional Transportation Authority. Anyone else heard of this
I guess you'd have to move some of the fare collection areas, stairways to the platforms, etc. but if you could get it across to 35th St, you have the closed off tunnel to 40th St.
Hows the idea of connecting the Path to the 7 (either this way, or in the West Side or NJ somewhere--since extending the 7 West was what this part of the thread was about), and severing either the connection to the N (If it was to be run by Path) or the NJT connections in NJ (So it could be TA and not have to meet FRA rules)
What ever happened to the plan to replace both the MTA and NJT with a Regional Transportation Authority. Anyone else heard of this
I wonder if there is any way to squeeze the 6th Avenue Path past Herald Square. If there were, NYC might be persuaded to allow the taxpayers of New Jersey to extend the PATH north of 33rd St, then west under the river, for a loop through Midtown -- if NJT took over the PATH and stopped draining the city via the Port Authority. I want city money and suburban money kept separate -- the city is drained enough as it is.
Perhaps it could swing over to, and up, 5th Avenue, and extend out to the parking lots in the Meadowlands and Secaucus, along with the new transfer point for Midtown Direct. NJT riders to Hoboken could get closer to their Midtown jobs via PATH -- those to Penn could get a free transfer since PATH would be an NJT line.
A subway should be able to 35,000 people an hour down a track in modest comfort -- comfort enough for a 10-15 minute ride. That's 140,000 people in two rush hours, given that trains would be coming in from both directions. Only 217,000 Manhattan workers lived in Northern NJ in 1990 (census data), and many worked Downtown -- which is served by a separate PATH line.
The subway would be better off peak too. NJ residents want to drive. I'd bet they'd rather drive to a quick subway connection -- used only by other suburbanites -- than get on a commuter train which runs once every hour.
[re idea of running PATH in a loop through Midtown, out to northern NJ via a new Hudson tunnel]
[The subway would be better off peak too. NJ residents want to drive. I'd bet they'd rather drive to a quick subway connection -- used only by other suburbanites -- than get on a commuter train which runs once every hour.]
Interesting timing. There's an ongoing discussion on nyc.transit about extending PATH service into New Jersey (by taking over some NJTransit lines rather than this idea, however). Anyway, it's been claimed that NJTransit riders greatly dislike PATH, and this dislike, much more than the convenience of a one-seat ride, is why Midtown Direct service has been so popular.
When the subway was originally built(PATH) didn't the city subway companies have any problems with them coming in and building lines? I could definately see PATH having a problem with having the IND build around and under the line, or were they built simultaneously?
PATH was built first. Originally, the IND 6th Ave. line was supposed to take over the PATH tunnels for local service, and a separate tunnel was to be built for express service. This plan was shelved when it was discovered that the PATH tunnels were built to IRT clearances; it would have been too costly to modify the tunnels to accommodate 10-foot-wide cars. Consequently, the IND built a two-track ROW initially around and below the PATH tunnels, and a new "temporary" PATH terminal at 33rd St. replaced the one at 28th St. The express tracks were added in conjunction with the Chrystie St. connection.
Steve B wrote:
>PATH was built first. Originally, the IND 6th Ave. line was supposed
>to take over the PATH tunnels for local service, and a separate
>tunnel was to be built for express service. This plan was shelved
>when it was discovered that the PATH tunnels were built to IRT
>clearances; it would have been too costly to modify the tunnels to
>accommodate 10-foot-wide cars. Consequently, the IND built a two-
>track ROW initially around and below the PATH tunnels, and a new
>"temporary" PATH terminal at 33rd St. replaced the one at 28th St.
>The express tracks were added in conjunction with the Chrystie St.
>connection.
Your account of the 33/28 situation is innacurate. The original terminal for the H&M (PATH after 1962) was at 33 Street, there was also a station at 28 Street. When the IND was built, H&M needed to move their terminal southward to allow for the IND. The current station is really at 31/32 Sts. H&M decided not to change the name. 28 St. was closed because it was too close to the new station and therefore unneccessary.
I stand corrected.
I don't see how they could extend it. The Path ends at 32nd street and would have to cross both the IND and BMT Lines. If you remember, there used to be a walkway between the 34th and 42nd
Street stations of the IND, between 34th and 40th Streets. It was sealed off a few years ago due to crime. I had read that this was tunnel originally built by the H&M (PATH) when they planned to extend the PATH all the way to Grand Central. That never happened and the IND tiled it to look like their own.
[If you remember, there used to be a walkway between the 34th and
42nd Street stations of the IND, between 34th and 40th Streets. It was sealed off a few years ago due to crime. I had read that this was tunnel originally built by the H&M (PATH) when they planned to extend the PATH all the way to Grand Central. That never happened and the IND tiled it to look like their own.]
I heard a different story. The former 6th Avenue El had had a station at 38th Street. When plans were developed to replace the El with the IND subway, which of course wouldn't have any stations between 34th and 42nd Streets, merchants around 38th Street complained that they would be too far from the nearest entrances and might lose business. To keep them happy, the city built a long passageway with an entrance at 38th Street - in that sense, the passageway could be viewed as a *long* entrance way.
When was the 38th St. entrance closed? I used to use that walkway during the mid 1970's and I don't remember that entrance.
I guess my original post was unclear. I was suggesting that the 7 go east on 42nd beyond 8th, to wherever it makes sense to head south for the Javits Ctr. Service to a new area for your $$$. Yes, this would cut the 2nd, unused track for the E, but they could leave it in as a diamond for emergencies if they wanted...
What do you mean when you say that there is space for the 7 at 34/8th? Sure, they could dig out a new station under the one that is there, but it would be awfully hard to do that without closing the IND line down. Are you saying that there is already a 2nd, unused level there?
My objection to going south on 8th ave is you are heading into a very crowded area. It would be awfully hard to thread another line through the existing IND and the railroad tunnels at 34th (just like it would be hard to extend the PATH north!)
Re: #7 at 34th & 8th ...
- The E from the lower level at 42nd comes up to rejoin the line South. At 34th the IND platforms are West and up from the pedestrian walkway. This walkway parallels the IND platform (N/S), also from the LIRR you walk down an incline from the LIRR 8th Ave end.
- Our host, Sunday, said that this area (walkway) was built with the intention that it could be used to continue the lower level 42nd ROW South & terminate it at 34th.
- I agree with you and others that more far reaching extentions for the #7 would be a better way to go, BUT this small ext. to 34th on the IND would let the #7 serve ALL the up/dwn town lines.
Mr t__:^)
I always thought that there actually was a plan to extend the (7) towards Javits Center. There is what appears to be a sealed subway entrance in the small park across the street from Javits on 11th Av. and W. 35th St, as well as sealed stairways along 11th Av. One of the other Subtalkers suggested, however, that this might have been intended for the Amtrak line passing underneath.
Bob Sklar
[I always thought that there actually was a plan to extend the (7) towards Javits Center. There is what appears to be a sealed subway entrance in the small park across the street from Javits on 11th Av. and W. 35th St, as well as sealed stairways along 11th Av. One of the other Subtalkers suggested, however, that this might have been intended for the Amtrak line passing underneath.]
What you're seeing are remnants of an old New York Central station dating back to the days of local service along with West Side line. It wasn't associated with the subway in any way.
As far as I know, nothing's ever come of the 7-line extension plans besides talk.
Service to the Javits Center could be done easily, quickly and "cheaply" by building an island platform on the north side of the LIRR West Side (Caemmerer) Yard and running shuttle trains consisting of LIRR MU equipment between Penn Station and this new platform. New transfer facilities would not even be necessary - people can simply use the MetroCard, or even make it FREE during Javits Center events. Sometimes you could even get the event sponsor to pay for it. Heck, they sometimes ALREADY pay to run shuttle BUSES they charter themselves between various points in midtown and the Javits Center.
--Mark
If the #7 tracks are RIGHT across the wall, there may not be enough room, in terms of turning radius, to connect them to the lower level Eighth Ave. track. I don't think the MTA wants to build any really tight turns on new construction.
Obviously the #7 IRT cars cannot stop at IND platforms, new platforms would have to be built, but the existing lower-level tunnel could at least be a start toward building a line to the Javits Center that would run south on 8th Ave., then weston 34th St. How much this would save over building a new tunnel west on 41st St. and south on 11th Ave., I don't know. The third alternative would be providing access from Penn Station, perhaps via what is now the turnoff for Amtrak Empire Corridor trains. All these alternatives should be considered if rail service to the Javits Center (or proposed new Yankee Stadium) is to be built.
Re: Escalatror & #7 end of track ....
- Escalator - You can still see part of that escalator on the lower level. It was said that the upper level end may have been just walled off vs. taken apart & bricked over, i.e. there was a wall in about the right place.
- #7 end of track ... two others have said here that the layup tracks do in fact extend right to the wall of the 8th Ave. With the flexibility that the 63rd St tunnel gives the IND, it would seem even more a good idea to extend the #7 further West.
Mr t__:^)
You're probably right about the mezzanine being walled off where the escalator was. That whole southern end has been reworked along the rest of the mezzanine. Before the Port Authority Bus Terminal was expanded, the subway entrance from the terminal was just north of 40th St. A ramp led down to the mezzanine; immediately to the right there used to be a hamburger stand. If you turned right after reaching the mezzanine, there was a token booth across from the turnstiles leading to the southernmost paid fare zone which included the southernmost stairs to the downtown platform. The escalator was beyond these stairs at the southwestern corner; I would occasionally walk over and glance at it. It was normally fenced off with one of those telescoping steel gates. Sometimes it would even be running.
After expansion, the subway entrance from the bus terminal was moved one block to the north. I was there last fall while making the long walk from Times Square to "take the A train" and thought I saw two rows of turnstiles across the mezzanine at the entrance to Port Authority. (Yes, there are, in fact, stores along the mezzanine, although not as many as there used to be.) I'm going to have to check that area out once again during my next visit to New York.
Although I have never lived in New York, I still consider 42nd St. as my home station because of all the times we came in from Jersey by bus to Port Authority and board (A) trains there. Whenever I go through that station now, it brings back many memories (R-1/9s lumbering in, R-32s and slant R-40s gliding in, R-10s somewhere in between).
While at 42nd & 8th one Slant R-40 came by & several R-32s (w/digital Route markers). The 40 was in the worst shape of all I saw, that includes the Redbirds on the 7th Ave.
Mr t__:^)
What line were the slants running on?
When I spoke of the R-32s and slant R-40s gliding into 42nd St., I was referring to the late 60s when the R-32s were on the AA and the slants ran on the E. They used to enter that station quietly; since I would be standing by the express track, I wouldn't even know an AA or E had pulled in until they had almost come to a stop. The R-1/9s, on the other hand, would give themselves away easily; you could feel the floor vibrate as they approached. Once there was an E train of R-6s which, as the motorman applied power, squeaked like a flock of sea gulls as the motors moaned and groaned to life. I thought I was at Coney Island for a moment.
Re: Slant R-40 ... I think it was a N at 42nd Street
I did take a closer look at the tracks (with a flashlight) they are not shiny at all. I would say it has been quite some time since anything has gone over these.
BTW - The entire platform and station walls were cleaned up by the station department just for the tour. There was some graffiti on the curtain wall but according to the transit manager on site, that was very recently applied.
>Also, was there any mention of any trains using that platform >recently, such as during emergencies or diversions? Or could you
>see any evidence of use? You may recall that in that thread, one of >our SubTalkers claimed to have passed through the station
>during a diversion!
I remembered that thread, and because of that I asked out tour guide specifically whether ANY trains were EVER rerouted down there during a problem and he specifically told me that it is quite possible a revenue or non-revenue rerouting occurred here whereby the passengers passed through the station but the trains did not stop and NO passengers have ever been DROPPED OFF here since 1976.
P.S. It was great to meet some fellow subtalkers on the tour!
Of course, only E trains could be rerouted via the lower level. There would be no problem resuming their normal route, since there is a crossover switch to the southbound local track just before 34th St. at about the same location where the express track merges with the track ascending from the lower level.
BTW, when was the Aqueduct Special officially discontinued? The Disused and Abandoned Stations section mentions the lower level being used from 1959 to 1981.
Various posters wrote:
> The track config. allows the E, Southbound (there's only one track)
> to come in from Queens (it's already under the A/C at 50th). I could
> see only Southbound signals, it was RED, & was told the the 3rd rail
> was probally live.
And both the third rail, and the tracks, were rusty. I think the third rail was also UNCOVERED. You could also see along the track wall where stickers were applied to make the station appear that it was 47/50th for the filming of "Ghost". Funny seeing lots of 42s followed by the occasional 47 and 50.
> Getting there: We went down through a locked door & were told it was
> the only access (about mid platform).
Until this summer, there was still an open staircase in the southern portion of the upper platform. It wasn't even covered by fencing or anything, just a simple, waist-high swinging gate. This summer, it was cemented over, but there is a metal plate in the new cement work that, when lifted, shows the stairs underneath. We accessed the lower level through a locked door found under one of the staircases approximately mid-platform.
> Others ventured further up & down the platform ... I've seen the
> size of the rats before, & decided not to push my luck.
It was pretty clean, actually. (Chambers St (1/2/3/9) has a large track rabbit population now. Even videoed about 15 seconds of them for my future "Mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom" segment I'm shooting :) The tile is a pale yellow. The north end of the lower level has some flourescent lighting and a staircase to the upper platform is easily seen. The top of the staircase has been cemented over. The large station mosaic that says "42nd St" actually looks NEW. About 1/3 of the way down the platform, still on the northern end, is a door sealed with a metal gate marked "station dept". Reaching through the gate, I opened the door and you could see a corridor that leads to the express side of the southbound upper level. You could also see where signs were on the wall that probably said something like "IND trains to Brooklyn".
The south end of the platform still has the escalator shell leading upstairs and various signs indicating transfers to the upper level, all in the older back lettering on white background style. One lone sign remains on the northern part, directly across from the metal gate that "hides" the corridor from the upper level. The gate used for the Aqueduct Specials remains, well, what's left of it.
It was also strange to see a sign for an escalator to the upper level where no evidence of one exists anymore.
> Also, was there any mention of any trains using that platform
> recently, such as during emergencies or diversions? Or could you see
> any evidence of use?
If I remember correctly, the lower level was used just after the D-Type to Canarsie trip this past March/April. Ford Motor Company of the UK chartered the D-Types for three days for their top sales people, who were awarded a trip to NY for their efforts. Part of that trip was a ride on the D-Types, and I believe they boarded at the lower level of 42nd/8th Ave.
--Mark
Where exactly is the secret entrance to Belmont's hotel? It must be next to what used to be the southbound local track on what is now the 42nd St. shuttle.
Secret? Nah. Andy exagerrated a bit.
At the eastern end of the downtown platform (track 1) there is a door with "Knickerbocker" over it. That is an entrance to the Knickerbocker Hotel which once was above the station.
What is it an entrance to now?
And where are the other "secret" entrances to the subway that Andy alluded to during the tour?
The "Knickerbocker" entrance at the Times Square shuttle station presumably connects to the basement level of what used to be the Kickerbocker Hotel. It's now an office building, located at the SE corner of 42nd Street and Broadway with a large Gap store on the ground floor. This entrance surely must be sealed off, as it would provide access to the fare-paid zone on the subway (turnstile arrangements obviously were different when it was last in use).
The Belmont entrance is something entirely different, located at the Grand Central end of the shuttle. Stan Fischler's book _The Subway_ has a picture of what he believes is the old entrance. Belmont's private siding is described as "just north of the southbound platform" of the Grand Central shuttle station. I'd assume that means the nonrevenue track that connects to the Lexington line.
You are correct, Peter. We saw the Belmont private siding and site of the old hotel entrance on a "Day One of the IRT Tour" (Joe Cunningham, tour gide) earlier this year. The area is accessed through what is now a construction zone, along the south side of the corridor that runs from the east end of the GCT station of the towards the main portion of GCT.
After yesterday's (Sunday) Unification TOur, I went on a tour of my own. One stop was Canal St, because I wanted to check out the former express stop and its deplorable condition. While waiting on the downtown local platform, I hear this very load roar, louder than a typical subway train. Looking for a train, I see two very bright headlights. Figuring this was a worktrain, on went the video camera, and in comes the new vacuum train! Man was it loud. The cab of the train (full width) is something out of the United Federation of Planets starships. Lots of buttons, from the quick glimpse I got, and there were 2 or three people in the very roomy, French Metro-style cab. The last car of the train seemed to have the vacuum on. After it went by, I looked at the condition of the roadbed ... it didn't look much cleaner to me. So, either the vacuum was on and the bag was full, or the motor for it was on but not the suction. Anyway, it was a nice surprise.
When DOES the vacuum train normally do its cleaning? I'd think it's done during the late night hours.
--Mark
--Mark
Mark are you going to have any videos available on the unification tour?
Yes, as well as my own tour shortly thereafter. Stay tuned.
--Mark
Mark,
You just missed the Vacuum Train when you got off at Queensboro Plaza after the tour! It pulled into the upper level of the station on the 7 tracks, and proceeded up in the direction of Ditmars Ave. in Astoria on the N express tracks!
It was a bright yellow train and the cars has the number VC-1 I think.
I thought that seeing the Vacuum train was a great way to cap off the tour!
Now THAT'S a move I wish I got to see. Funny, I waited on the lower level of Queensboro Plaza for about 15 minutes for the R32-based N train to pull in and I didn't hear it .....
--Mark
It was standing in the station for a while, along with our N train, because they noticed a guy laying at the edge of the station who was passed out. His head was almost a foot away from the tracks and the train operator was afraid he would move and fall into the tracks.
I saw VakTrak (as they call it) northbound on the Lexington Avenue line at 125th Street station on Nov 07 1998, at about 11:37am.
The unit numbers are VT101 thru VT105. It is very very loud, at least 100DB. It is also as described -yellow cars, a cab for VT101 and VT105, the middle three cars are the "bag" I guess. Anyway I took a picture of it (as best I could) as it lumbered along, an impatient #4 train led by #1441 right behind it.
I think VakTrak ran into water on the roadbed at Park Place station, it looks like it kicked up brown muck onto the wall as it vacuumed.
Is VakTrak supposed to operate if water is in the drainage trench?
Wayne
A friend showed me a couple of Chicago cards with with graphics. I guess the suits are talking to each other again ... anyhow he only had one of each. Do the three "Js" (or anyone else) from the Windy City have some to trade ?
Hopping ... Mr t__:-0
For those that may want to know ... at this depot the new Orions came in (from the factory) with the Unisphere/Quality Control/Pride of the Fleet (logo) ... guess they're automatically added to the Quality group.
Mr t__:^)
When watching a report on how Giuliani was closing-off City Hall Park on Eyewitness News, something just triggered my memory to pull a file that I have completely forgotten about:
Does anybody remember a few years back (maybe around 1990-91 or so), there was some sort of a bus operating in Lower Manhattan, but it was quite unusual. The driver was on the right (wrong[!]) side, and there were two sliding doors on the left side (similar to subway doors). People boarded the bus via a glass-enclosed platform (one of which was located on Broadway right next to City Hall). If I remember correctly, the buses were painted gray and white (similar to the old Public Service scheme, but not quite . . . ). There was a name for this service, but I just can't remember what it was. For one reason or another, it didn't last very long.
What was this all about?
I remember years ago around 1981/82 NYCTA was testing two buses a Hino built bus and a Renault built. Also, years before theat, There were 2 double decker buses running on the M-4 and M-1 lines.
Gonzo
I actually have pictures of said buses, when they were parked at 132 St. Depot. I remember seeing one or the other parked at the M4 terminal opposite Madison Sq Garden.
These pictures are now in the possession of our esteemed website host.
I remember seeing a double decker testing on the B-41 in the 70's, then in '79, before the new wave of buses started coming in, I saw a slope back RTS testing on the B-41. (around the same time they stated appearing in other cities)
Bootsy.I rode the service you mention on April 30,1992. I believe that it ran for about a six week period around that time but it may have been a little longer.The buses came on loan from the City of Curitiba,Brazil.This may have been some sort of USDOT demonstration project.The buses were shipped by boat.The route was designated M-9998L south Ferry Loop but this was shown only at the bus stops,not on the buses.There were four stops in a continous loop.South Ferry to World Trade Center to City Hall to South Street Seaport to South Ferry. The builders plate read Volvo/Marco Polo/Nordica and the bus I rode was numbered B-586.As you know the buses required a precise alignment between the bus and the sliding doors on the raised platform.This slowed performance and combined with the Lower Manhattan traffic may have had something to do with cancelling the project. The service was free but you entered the platform thru a turnstile to count the number of riders. I hope this info helps.
It is a sort of test project, in that Curtibia (population approx. 2 millions) wanted to build a rail transit system but didn't have the money.
Instead, on the busiest routes, they:
*set aside special bus lanes,
*gave precedence on the traffic lights to the buses in these lanes (they have some sort of radio transponder to trigger the traffic lights), and
*allowed people to board these buses only at raised, enclosed platforms where they paid the fare upon entering the enclosed area.
In short, it was a sort of street-running light rail system using buses and was advertised and treated as such (rather than as just an express bus route). It has by all accounts been a great success, and some other cities have copied it. There was an article on cities copying the Curtibia system (but not describing in detail the Curtibia system itself) in the recent issue of Transit magazine.
Kudos to David.Being a native new yorker myself, is is always gratifying to see a major part that makes new york city what it is
today.
Kudos to David.Being a native new yorker myself, is is always gratifying to see a major part that makes New York City what it is
today.Our subways are the heartbeat of the city and it is excellent
to see someone devote a website to such an important part of the city
KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!!! (The BusFest'98 feature broughtt back memories especially the batwing advertisements)
Ditto for me too. I'm also a military member, and this is pretty much my link to NYCT goings on. Also, gotta thank Regulars like Thurston, Steve, Wayne, and the rest of the group who also sharre their hobby and work experience with us "nuggets"
Gonzo
I was taking a look at the South Ferry outer loop station today
and noticed something strange (apart from the fact that the trains
departed before the gap fillers retracted) - the water sprinklers
between the two tracks. I think the inner loop had some too, but
not fully covered like the outer. What gives?
Sounds like an attempt to quiet up things down there. I've noticed this two, they useually spray before the train comes.
It makes sense.
Ever notice how elevateds seem to be quieter in the turns on rainy / drizzly days?
Water is cheaper than flange lube.
Water uses only a simple sprayer.
It's environmentally safe. (r)
Oh yeah, and it evaporates too.
The LIRR uses these funky flange lubricator things instead. Port Washington line has tons of them beyons Bayside.
The sprinklers are there to prevent track fires. The wheel flange grinding against the guard rail (the extra rail seen around curves) could cause a spark which could start a track fire. Ideal here because this is a very heavy curve. Also cuts down on the noise.
It's main purpose is noise abatement. Preventing track fires is just a small bonus.
Also good for removing all that salt and road grime :)
Seriously, City Hall Loop and Fulton St (4/5) have these sprinkers, too.
--Mark
OK, so that's what they're there for. Interesting. BUT, don't they
make for totally evil conditions, vermin-wise? Underground & wet
seems like it would lend itself to rot & vermin very quickly.
The ties in the station are a special, very hard, very heavy wood that is rot resistent. At South Ferry track workers have to be very careful where they walk, ties are very slippery & slimy from the water.
Yes, every time I have ridden the "J" on a rainy day, the Cypress Hills and Crescent Street curves go very quietly. There are countless other places where these sprinklers would work wonders:
My top ten:
1) N/R north of Cortlandt Street
2) #5 entering/leaving Mott Avenue (149/Concourse)
3) #2/#3 north of Fulton Street
4) #2/#3 west of Park Place
5) #2/#3/#4/#5 north of Nevins Street
6) N/R north of Whitehall Street
7) #4/#5/#6 north and south of Grand Central
8) #7 west of 5th Avenue
9) L between Grand and Graham
10)#4/#5/#6 in Union Square station
Wayne
The gap fillers are automatic, and (depending on which is the 'right' way) retract either when the train presses against them, or the train moves out of a signal block, or the voltage is removed from the grounding rail (there is an additional car length of third rail on the platform side of the loop)
I know the redbirds have a shelf under the door sills for the rollers which activated the older system.
-Hank
The gap fillers at S.Ferry retract once the train has moved away from its 'stop here" position. This movement breaks an electro-magnet link that operates the fillers (that loud sound you hear right before they retract). The fillers at Union Sq are pushed bak into place by the train itself.
When was the last non-UMTA (now FTA) bus order in NYC Year, make, model and number series?
What was the first UMTA funded bus order? (same info) Were they the Grummans?
Can anyone assist me in obtaining the ORIGINAL or
Copies of the Original Document showing the Track
Plans of the IND
UTICA AV
S4 Street
Bedford Nostrand
Chrystie Street and the connections to 2nd av Manh
,,etc etc
This is part of the 1929 (approx)plan
Do you know where or who might have these plans
I have seen Joe K.Drawings,I would like to see the
actual Contract ,or contract proposals
Thank you
Steve
Ive noticed that NYCT hasnt had the bus timetable page up for about the last three months. All it says is that they are working on a new way to present the schedules and they would rather not show outdated schedules. makes sense, but how long does it take to present text files in a new way??
As Iwas driving home at about 2:30 am this morning,Inoticed an Articulated bus on the L.I.E. heading eastbound.Iwas at Exit 50 at the time.On several other occassions, Ihave noticed regular Orions and Novas heading in the same direction.I couldn't keep up with it since I get off at exit 51.If anyone knows who works on these buses in Suffolk county,please respond. Thanks.
Im taking the station agent test on the 19th
finally i get my chance to work for the MTA
:)
now i got the test study book
but if there is anyone out there who has taken it in the past
can they tell me what should i expect on this test and how long does it take for them to call u back after the test is grade????
I know i shouldnt go quitting my job yet (even though im dying to!)
I have read with interest the various posts regarding this train, here in London England London Underground Limited also operates such a train which is 5 cars:
Driving Motor
Filter Car
Nozzle Car
Filter Car
Driving Motor
All painted in yellow livery and numbered TCC1-5 respectivley.
This train only operates during "non traffic hours" that being after the passage of the last night train (approx 1AM) until the first morning service (approx 5AM).
Does NYCTA operate any other engineers vehicles as a complete set , I've only ever seen works cars towing flat bed cars when on Vacation in NYC, and that was during traffic hours at around 11:30!!
Must be some Vacuum bag to change after cleaning!!
Regards
Rob.
NYC has no 'non-traffic' hours. The subway system operates 24/7, with some stations partially closed, and only 1 short service (3 stations) that is replaced by a bus. Pretty much the only times that service isn't disrupted for work is 5am-10am and 3pm-7pm (rush hour)
-Hank
The London Underground tunnel cleaning train sounds remarkably like our new vacuum train. We operate a few other similar 'unit trains' such as our rail grinder.
In NYC, the subways run 24/7. Therefore anytime the vacuum train operates a general order must be written, similar to any time trackwork is being done. The track section is closed and trains operate on a modified schedule around the G.O. area.
Why can't the Vacuum train run in regular traffic on a line - like the garbage trains do?
[Why can't the Vacuum train run in regular traffic on a line - like the garbage trains do?]
I believe it runs very slowly, possibly less than 5 mph. That's way too slow for it to run with regular train traffic.
HELLO OUT THERE FELLOW BUFFS, I AM SEEKING RECENT BUS RECAPS, WORK RUN ROSTERS(GLOSSARIES) AND OTHER SCHEDULE PARAPHERNALIA. ALSO, IF ANYONE HAS THE EQUIVALENT FOR RAPID TRANSIT, PLEASE CONTACT ME: GERRYJAY@YAHOO.COM ... THANK YOU, FELLOW BUFFS
With the Mayor pushing the idea at every opportunity, many Americans are aware that NYC's crime rate has fallen to the level of the mid-1960s. But have there been any media reports about soaring transit ridership? This certainly is a "story," since its so contrary to trends over the past 50 years.
I agree.NYCT has made significant gains in improving the equipment and
services over the years.The increased ridership is a result from that
effort.I Can't hardly wait to see the R-142's.You bet i will riding in
them when i'm back in town!!! GO MTA!!!
I once heard that three yellow lights up and down is proceed, three yellow lights across is stop, and three diagonal is slow. Is this correct? Yet what does it mean if you have for example, three lights up and down, then below that three lights diagonal? Also in Penn Station there are double red and green signals? Why double red or green?
Welcome to the wonderful world of RR signaling!
The diagnols, and horz and vert lines are what are called "position" signals. They eletrically replicate the more or less gone semaphore signals. PRR used them around here. Eventually, someone realized you could just make the signals different colors, like red, green, yellow, blue, etc. And thus, we have the "color" system, like what Metro-North uses. They're cheaper and smaller, and fit well into tunnels too, so the PRR used them in the Penn tunnels. Then some rocket scientist (actually, he wasn't, you see, this was before rockets. I don't know what we called rocket scientists before there were rockets) figured out that you could make lights blink.
Obviously, there is a system to this maddness, and every RR used their own system of signals, more or less modified for their use. They all follow the same basic idea. Since the LIRR was onwed by the PRR, they use a variant of the PRR's signaling system.
Those position signals are read as one thing. So, if you have a vertical over a horizontal, it has a certain meaning. It not like what alot of people think where one signal is for expresses and the other for locals.
Oh yeah, watch out the front of the train before you head under after woodside, and you'll see flashing signals. I don't know anywhere else on the LIRR where flashers are used. Oh yeah, and comming back, heading into Jamacia, you'll see smaller, square position signals above. I believe these are used by the LIRR and nobody else.
If you poke around long enough on the web, you'll find explinations of these various signals for the PRR, etc. If you want the LIRR, ask here, becvause I *know* a few people around here have digitized versions.
BTW, while we're on the subject, Steve, did you ever finish digitizing Path's signals, and does anyone have ANYTHING on Metro-North's, other than flashing green supposedly means to proceed under cab signals?
And, that's one other thing to remember - the LIRR uses cab signals too, and that's the bell you hear going off every now and then (to let the engineer know the signals changed). Thus, there are really more "signals" along the tracks - you just don't see them.
Sometimes a single signal is sufficient, and there isn't one below it. In this case:
Verticle = Clear
Diagnal = "Approach", meaning to approach the next signal being
prepared to stop. If it's aiming in the other direction and
has a light under it, it means "Caution"
Horizontal = STOP A light under it makes it "Stop and Proceed"
Obviously, these rules go out the window when you have two signals ontop of each other (in which case the combinations and indications get bizzare)
Here's the best signal link I know of on the Web.
The only thing I'll add to Phil's detailed comments is that a pair of signals usually relates to a switch after the NEXT signal. The position of the lights gives the Engineer advance knowledge of how the switch is thrown.
At Penn the Brakeman will also talk about the "hanger" (signal hanging from the ceiling) in his communication with the Engineer. On some tracks the Engineer has to park the train PAST the signal. Since he can no longer see it, the Brakeman has to tell him when it's green.
Mr t__:^)
The signal you are describing does not exist on the LIRR, at least not in the LIRR rule book. Diagonal over vertical does exist and it's called "Approach Medium" meaning approach next signal at medium speed. In ASC territory approach at speed indicated displayed on Cab Signal indicator, not to exceed 35 MPH.
By the way, I have the LIRR signal system scanned if you want it. And yes, Phil, I have PATH completed too...
The SIR has a variation on the position signals, position signals with color. Vertical green, diagonal yellow, horizontal red. I believe that this system is a holdover form the days when the Baltimore & Ohio RR owned the line.
Yes, and the history of CPL is that the B&O was also briefly owned by PRR. BTW Position Lights evolved after an horrendous wreck where it was believed a color signal was misread.
Yes, but when PRR controlled B&O was before position light signals were used by either line - semaphores on both until the 1920's.
In Penn Station all over the tracks are double red stop lights I guess. Why double red? One red I guess means something else?
On most Class I railroads the saying goes, "If it isn't all red, it isn't red at all." Two aspects give a much greater variety of meanings than can be gotten from single signal aspects. Actually, since the LIRR uses AMTRAK ROW, the signals are AMTRAK too. Here are some of the 2-Aspect signals used:
Green over Red -- Proceed
Green over red (flashing) -- Absolute Clear
Yellow over Red -- Approach
Yellow over Green -- Approach Medium
Red over Green -- Slow Clear
Red over Yellow -- Restricting
Green over 2 Reds -- Medium Clear
Does anyone know exactly when Queens Transit Corp. and Steinway Transit Corp.merged. Usually when a merger occurs on company goes out of business and the other changes its name. Which was the surviving company.
The two companies merged into Queens Surface in 1986. However, both had been under common ownership since approximately 1940. The original owner sold to a new owner in 1986 who changed the names and applied a common name to both sets of routes. However, since Queens and Steinway buses looked indentical, the pre-1986 common ownership was not exactly a secret.
Left over from Steinway here are a bunch of Steinway & Queensborough Bridge tokens. If you'ld like to purchase a piece of history send me e-mail directly. I'm also willing to accept other froms of barter, i.e. recently I traded for some Tokyo Transit cards & cookies to a SubTalker in Japan, the Transit cards have lovely photos of their equipment & the sender sent along a description of the route each card was used on.
Mr t__:^)
Dies anyone have exact routing details ,bidirectional ,of the shuttle ,,between 2 av and 60 and Queensboro Bridge Plaza
Thank you
As best as I can recall (the trolleys stopped running 41+ years ago):
Cars began westbound trips approximately where Northern and Queens Blvds meet, on north side (near street signs that say JFK Plaza). Proceeded north along the middle of today's westbound approach to the lower level. Cars then entered the outboard lower level QB Bridge roadway. Two stops were encountered westward - above Vernon Blvd. and above Welfare (now Roosevelt) Island). Cars then entered the underground station on the east side of Second Ave. between 59th and 60th Streets. Return trips followed the eastward outboard bridge roadway, with the same two stops. Cars then continued along the Bridge Plaza to a point next to today's NYC municipal garage, where the cars turned for the return trip to Manhattan.
Since they stopped letting folks walk/bike accross the Queensboro Bridge, Queens Surface has been asked, by the Mayor for a small fee, to provide a special "bike shuttle" accross the bridge. It is also part of the Q101 that turns North in Queens and goes up Steinway, then tunns around on Riker's Island or just before it (two different "runs"). To get on Roosevelt Island, take the Q102.
P.S. Several other buses routes also use the Queensboro Bridge, but the Q101 is the successor to the Trolley service.
Mr t__:^)
Is this small fee to the bicycle rider or walker only using the Q101 to go over the bridge, or is it a additional subsidy Guliani is giving to Queens Surface. Is this "bike shuttle" part of the Q101 in service, and if so, how much does it cost the rider?
Re: [Is this small fee to the bicycle rider or walker ... or ... is it additional subsidy Guliani is giving to Queens Surface ?
Is this "bike shuttle" part of the Q101 in service, and if so, how much does it cost the rider?]
Who says there's no more FREE lunch ????
- The "Shuttle" is free, it's assoc. with the Q101, that also goes over the bridge, but the real Q101 is $1.50 & continues on.
- The "small fee" is what Rudy gives us to provide the service ;-)
Sorry about that, just having a little fun with my fingers :-o
Non-disclaimer, this is an official answer ... Mr t__:^)
Is this small fee to the bicycle rider or walker only using the Q101 to go over the bridge, or is it a additional subsidy Guliani is giving to Queens Surface. Is this "bike shuttle" part of the Q101 in service, and if so, how much does it cost the rider?
Re: [Is this small fee to the bicycle rider or walker ... or ... is it additional subsidy Guliani is giving to Queens Surface ?
Is this "bike shuttle" part of the Q101 in service, and if so, how much does it cost the rider?]
Who says there's no more FREE lunch ????
- The "Shuttle" is free, it's assoc. with the Q101, that also goes over the bridge, but the real Q101 is $1.50 & continues on.
- The "small fee" is what Rudy gives us to provide the service ;-)
Sorry about that, just having a little fun with my fingers :-o
Non-disclaimer, this is an official answer ... Mr t__:^)
I know they welded the tracks on the Brighton line in Brooklyn, but are they doing the same elsewhere? If so, shouldn't that allow an increase in speed, of course with new signals?
Needless to say, the Brighton line Q express doesn't scream from Kings Hway to Newkirk they way it used to.
The run from Prospect Park to Church Ave. is nice and smooth on a Q of slant R-40s. The rest of the run, well, I wouldn't blame it on the trains themselves.
I'd have to say the express run on 7th Ave. down the 34th-to-14th straightaway has been upgraded. The Redbirds I rode in October ran smooooooth down that stretch. I really wished they didn't have to stop at 14th St.
It was mentioned on a previous thread that 100-pound rail is used in the subway, while 115-pound rail has been installed on elevated and open cut sections. While 115-pound rail does permit higher speeds, it all boils down to signalling capabilty. IMHO, the TA has taken a cautious approach regarding speed since the Union Square and Williamsburg Bridge accidents, to the point of overreacting. It would be nice if the R-38s could take that express jaunt up CPW as fast as the R-10s used to.
Welded rail should run smoother,quieter and be easier to maintain than jointed rail. (no click clack)
Speed is more of a factor of track geometry and signaling rather than rail weight or connections. I will be interested to hear from the track Guru's though.
There are a lot of factors that go into the speed allowance
calculation for a section of track: ballast (or other track
support structure) type and condition, condition of ties,
axle loading, curvature, rail weight and section, and type
of joints. Most of these come into play at higher speeds
(50+) than you're likely to ever see in NYCT's operation.
Of course, if you let the track get really, really bad as
the TA did in the late 1970s, these safe track speed numbers
will start to come down into the 10 MPH ballpark.
> The run from Prospect Park to Church Ave. is nice and smooth on a Q
> of slant R-40s.
I shot some cab video last march on the Brighton Line between Brighton Beach and Prospect Park aboard an R-32. It's so smooth in that stretch that the video looks like it was shot using a tripod when in reality it wasn't.
As for the speed, the trains have speed govenors now that kick in when the train accelerates to a certain speed. However, if the train is at full throttle when its on the downgrade between Ave H and Newkirk Ave, watch out!
--Mark
That goes for A trains heading south between 50th and 42nd Sts. as well. Talk about an adrenaline rush! I shudder to think what would happen if there were a derailment. You'd have a disaster which would eclipse the Malbone St. wreck.
There are no speed governors on NYC Transit Equipment. The speed is controlled to some extent by controlling the armature current through the traction motors. A true speed governor would control speed at a pre-determined rate. While a NYC Transit train on level tangent track might achieve speeds of 40+ MPH, however, add a substantial grade and speeds can vary by 40-50%......This can hardly be considered a governor.
Steve,
Will the R-142/142A and/or R-143 orders have some sort of governor to ensure that speed is maintained on upgrades? As you noted, the existing equipment has no such device, and the trains tend to slow down on upgrades.
David
According to today's NY Times on-line the One-day unlimited ride pass will be available starting January 1st for 4 bucks. They'll be able to be bought at Newstands, deli's(?) and hotel lobbies and eventually vending machines in subway stations but not at subway information booths.
You can find the article at Single-Day, Unlimited-Ride Metrocards to Go on Sale January 1
Also, the article stated that the one day pass would be good from the time of its first use till 3 am the next day, and therefore most users wouldn't get 24 hours out of it. What if I used the one day pass at 1:00am. Would the pass expire two hours later at 3:00am, or 26 hours later, at 3:00am next day? According to the wording of the article, it should be the 26 hours, although I bet it will be the two hours.
Caution: Rudy Giuliani & George Pataki would LIKE the 24 hour cards to be good after 12 Midnight. Their desire has been passed to the software guys in Tenn. Depending on how difficult it is to program will effect WHEN it will become a benifit for the riding public.
Just a personal opinion ....
Just set the turnstiles to run on Pacific Time and everything should run perfectly :-)
I hope they sell those at Penn Station and Grand Central... PLEASE!
Who can we push on to make sure its available to visitors who come in from outside the city and don't stay in the hotels?
Does anyone know what restrictions, if any will be placed on the new one day unlimited pass, as to 18 minute lockouts for same train station,same bus route, etc.?
REPLIES TO: GERRYJAY@YAHOO.COM Gerry Josephs
Re: [Does anyone know what restrictions, if any will be placed on the new one day unlimited pass, as to 18 minute lockouts for same train station,same bus route, etc.?]
- It is a UNLIMITED MetroCard, so the 18 passback "lockout" applies.
- It is NO GOOD on the Express buses, hay don't get greedy.
- I'm not able to confirm, with my TA/Cubic sources, that the 3AM feature will work, initially, so after midnight look out. One source said the TA software folks can do this themselves, if true maybe it will be there.
Disclaimer: Personal comments here, I don't speak for the TA or DOT.
Mr t__:^)
Dear Thurston, Thanks for your help.Gerry Josephs ./
It is my pleasure ... just part of the friendly service. Mr t__:^)
I Certainly hope that these passes will be available at key LIRR stations, i.e. Babylon (my home station)... if not, how can I make my voice heard.
As for programming the cards: they'll probably have the current date encoded in them in century-year-month-day format i.e. 19981209 (so the dates compare logically) Then the turnstiles will probably be set up to read like this:
assuming the turnstile reader knows the current date (19981209) and time (24 hr format - 1948)
if (date in turnstile reader) = (date on card) OK, open the turnstile.
if (date on card) is LESS THAN (date in turnstile reader) AND current time is less than 0300 (24-hr clock) OK open the turnstile
OTHERWISE DONT open the turnstile.
Wayne (20 years programming come June 1999)
Wayne Whitehorne wrote:
<< if (date in turnstile reader) = (date on card) OK, open the turnstile. if (date on card) is LESS THAN (date in turnstile reader) AND current time is less than 0300 (24-hr clock) OK open the turnstile
OTHERWISE DONT open the turnstile. >>
So once you buy a card, all rides from midnight to 3am are free. All expired cards would work under those settings, since their date would be less than the date in the turnstile. Did you mean if the date on the card is ONE less than that in the turnstile?
Yes, I did. It's easy enough for the computer to figure that out. They would probably use a Julian date conversion routine in the software to determine the exact difference in the dates. The simple arithmetic would not hold up when the month changed. Most computers I have dealt with (including the ones I'm dealing with now) convert dates to Julian format before computing the number of days from date A to date B. The illustration that I originally gave was oversimplified.
Wayne
I'm curious about the references to 'Julian Date Conversion.' Is that the pre-Gregorian Julian calendar (Julius Caesar's corrected calendar) that we were on until 1752 in England and the colonies or is it some other use of the label? If that's what you're talking about, why would anyone want to go back to the Julian calendar?
There's currently a thirteen-day difference between the two calendars, which will go to fourteen at the start of the new century in 2001--if your use of 'Julian' does mean 'Julian,' as in 'Caesar,' what's going to happen between 1 January and 15 January in 2000 and 2001? (The Y2K problems in the religious groups still using the Julian calendar are going to be fun to watch, too.)
Maybe this is just another of my requests for clarification of jargon for us layfolk, but thanks for the clarification anyway.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Basically what we mean by a "Julian Date Conversion" is where we take the date (in CCYYMMDD format) and turn it from 19981207 into a computable value. Here's an example:
Take the century/year and divide it by four.
If there's no remainder it is a leap year (LEAP YR=TRUE)
If LEAP YR = TRUE
yr-days = 366
ELSE (otherwise)
yr-days = 365.
Then: Days-for-year = (century/year * yr-days). ( * means multiply)
For this year the result is (1998 * 365) = 729270.
Next, the month. This is sticky. We have to store twelve values.
Jan = zero, Feb = 31, Mar = 59, Apr = 90, May = 120, Jun = 151, Jul = 181, Aug = 213, Sep = 243, Oct = 273, Nov = 304, Dec = 334.
Basically what we're trying to find out is how many days were in LAST month. We use the current month as an argument to pick out the appropriate value. Since we're in December, we'd pick 334.
Then we add this to 729270 + 334 = 729604. Next we add the days (10),
which gives us 729614. If Leap year = TRUE, add 1 more.
Today's julian date would equal 729614.
Yesterday's would be 729613. These could be compared or the difference taken between them for purposes of comparison.
Wayne
Thanks for the explanation; it's an interesting calculation to see. But I still wonder why it's called 'Julian' rather than 'Aardvark' or 'Fisher' or 'Zanzibar.'
I'd also point out that there is apparently a mistake in the initial calculation. The first instruction is to "Take the century/year and divide it by four. If there's no remainder it is a leap year (LEAP YR=TRUE)."
If you take the century years of 1900, 1800, and 1700, and divide by four, there's no remainder, but those weren't leap years.
Thanks again for the information.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
For Century Years to be Leap Years the year MUST be divisible by 400. Thus, 1600 was a leap year and 2000 will be.
First, sorry to the rest of you for this personal note ...
Ed, my reply to your e-mail won't go through, hasn't the university paid their elect. bill or is the Apple II Server over taxed :-(
Mr t__:-o
> They'll be able to be bought at Newstands, deli's(?) and hotel
> lobbies and eventually vending machines in subway stations but not
> at subway information booths.
WCBS Newsradio 88 reported a few days ago that the unlimited day pass will be sold at token booths after all. NYC Transit was concerned about long lines at token booths and overwhelming aditional demand on an already crowded transit system. They have since relented and decided to sell the passes at token booths now.
--Mark
At least to relieve "overcrowding" sell them at for example the newsstand right at the entrance to the WTC station for the E and C...this way you have a choice....
At least to relieve "overcrowding" sell them at for example the newsstand right at the entrance to the WTC station for the E and C...this way you have a choice....notto mention vedning machines...esp at the busier stations....
I have been scouring booths looking for a bulletin on these cars. When I ghet ome official nfo I will post
Okay, so now that we have discussed signalling, how about routing. How do the various towers, HAROLD, JAY and HALL in particular, know
which trains are which as they do not have destination markers like the subways do?
Okay got my first ever ride on the new MCI Buses on the X1 Staten Island route. Rode Richmond Ave to Rector St. I liked the extra room for my 6'8" 300lb frame accross from the wheelchair lift. Kinda like the Orion's extra room for seats behind the rear exit door (they had more).
So how does the wheel chair lift work?? I notice there is no overhead bin over the seats and assume the "wall" swings up and out. Anyone know how you would board and secure a wheelchair??
Re: Wheelchair lift ...
Our new Orions have the lifts in the front (diesel) & rear (CNG) ... it sounds like a different device then ours. As far as securing, we STRAP 'em in.
Mr t__:^)
From what I've been told, the entire serction of the bus side above the luggage racks opens outward, and a platform comes out from under the bus floor. As for secureing, they use straps just like the standard buses do, but instead of folding up, the seats fold and rool to clear space. You lose 6-8 seats with 2 wheelchairs, 4 seats with one. It takes 5-10 minutes to load a WC passenger.
-Hank
Did any NYCTA TDH 4510 survive the scrappers yard? I know that Pacific Electric's sole 4510 is alive and well(?) in southern California.
Anyone have a photo of Triboro Coach's TDH 4510 they acquired from the TA?
Comments about this great unique model?
Sorry if this has already been asked a million times but I can't seem to
find any reference to it in these pages:
Does anyone know what the yellow light above the center door on IRT cars
(sometimes blinking, sometimes steady) indicates? As I can see it does not
relate to doors being open (the red indicators) and as the train continues
in service even with the light on, I presume it is some kind of warning.
Thanks in advance,
Rob Bondy
Flashing Yellow: Emergency cord box/cover opened. Sounds alarm in train. Idea is to thwart vandalism for unnecessary emergency cord activation. This modification only in IRT division. Solid Yellow: motors in that car not taking power, although this condition can exist even with the yellow light not illuminated.
Which StatIon Is The Deepest Underground. I believe it is Rosevelt Island, However some people tell me the express tracks at 59th+lex are deeper.
More than likely, Roosevelt Island has that honor now. Prior to that, the deepest station was 191st St.-St. Nicholas Ave. on the 1/9, 180 feet from street surface to track level.
Does anyone know if Metro-North Finished The Study On extending the hudson line branch past poughkeepsie, and up to tivoli on the Hudson River Line?
Metro-North to Tivoli?! There's not much room for parking down there where I think the old station must have stood, and it's a much less logical terminus than Poughkeepsie, or Rhinecliff for that matter. I can't imagine Tivoli residents being that gung-ho about a station; it's not very densely populated around there, not a whole lot of commuters. I've spent some time there over the past few years and let me tell you it's a *wierd* town. Couple of very nice restaurants though.
-Daniel Casey
I've also heard talk of an extention to Rhinecliff. While it might have some merits, there's a degree of risk as well. Experience elsewhere in the region has shown that there is a time/distance limit beyond which you won't attract many commuters. Consider LIRR to Greenport, the LIRR's Montauk line east of Patchogue, Metro North to Waterbury, and Shore Line East. None of these distant lines have enough ridership to keep from being major financial drains. On the other hand, Metro North to Dover Plains and the Metro North/New Jersey Transit service to Port Jervis do quite well.
What I'm getting at is that Metro North should not extend the Hudson line to Rhinecliff unless they're reasonably sure that there will be a decent amount of ridership (though figuring this out won't be easy). Poughkeepsie might be the commuting limit on that line, although that's not carved in stone.
I don't know about the other lines but Metro North makes it difficult to commute from Waterbury Ct to NYC if you work "bankers hours". I haven't checked the schedule in a couple of months but the first train from Waterbury in the morning does not get to GCT until after 9 am. If you make it too difficult to commute by offering inconvenient times or poor service people won't use it.
I ve always thought that MN would be better off extending the 3rd rail to Poughkeepsie- they did it for the Harlem Line;and I think a faster ride would be better for ridership,although there are probably some disadvantages... But all in all. it would be good. Another thing- during the recent tie replacement project they DID put in the long ties capable of holding a 3rd rail-something to think about....
Will the 7 line be getting any new cars soon? Why doesn't the 7 line have any new cars?
The R-62s will most likely take over for the Redbirds on the 7 once the R-142s begin arriving in earnest sometime next year. Most of the Redbirds will be retired then. The WF R-36s have served the Flushing line ever since they arrived in 1964, which must be a record for an exclusive car assignment to any line. Even the R-10s didn't last on the A line for as long the R-36s have on the 7. The Redbirds will be missed by those of us who are fond of them.
I have the latest copy .
There are alot of changes in Subway or Bus Operations,also reflecting Service Improvements secondary to the Budget .
If you would like more info ,,contact me directly at smokiecat@webtv.net,,and specify Bus or Subway in your request
I dont want to tyoe the entire thing out,,if there is no request from anyone
Let Me Know
Steve
Hi,
Can anyone tell me why steam can be sen coming from the road grates even when the air temperature is 70 degrees?
Why are their Nitrogen cylinders standing around New York?
Thanks in anticipation.
Hugh FIxsen
NY has steam pipes running underground. Lots of building get heating by steam, and cooling too (yes, it *is* possible). Sometimes steam leaks out of a valve, or something...
BTW, your seeing water vapor, not steam. Steam is a gas, and is invisible.
Nitrogen containers? Nitrogen has lots of uses. Hospitals use it, Telcos probbly use it, Con Ed, the T/A. When you need to create an inert atmophere (say, to prevent explosion), or need to purge out a line (say, blow gas out of a gas pipe), nitrogen does the trick. Cheaply and safely too (air is 70% nitrogen BTW). When you get to repair / industrial processes, you'd be amazed at what kinda things they use...
Usually when you see a tank of Liquid Nitrogen standing around
on a street corner, you'll see a little hose coming out of it,
duct-taped to the roadway or sidewalk, and running into a telco
manhole. This is a "temporary" repair measure when the jacket
of an underground copper "trunk" cable (the kinds that contains
a few thousand pairs of copper wires) fails and water enters
the cable. Pressurized nitrogen is introduced into the core
of the cable. It travels down the cable to the point of the
breach and tends to blow out any accumulated moisture and
provide a barrier against future moisture ingress until such
time as the telephone company can replace the cable.
E ----Northbound Weekday Evening to Queens
1 trip added bet 4pm and 430 Pm
5 trips added bet 630PM and 10 Pm
F ====NB Weekday Evenings to QUeens
1 Trip added bet 4PM and 430 PM
4 trips bet 630 PM to 10 Pm
N ----NB to Queens Weekdays
1 trip added bet 430 Pm and 5 PM
1 trip added bet 630 PM and 7 Pm
R ----Weekday Service to Queeems
1 trip added bet 430 Pm to 5 Pm
1 trip added bet 630 PM and 7 PM
L---Saturdays
provide additional service bet Blyn and Manhattan
15 additional round trips bet 7 AM and 6 PM
L---Sundays
Provide same
7 additional trips bet 1 PM and 8 PM
Effective May 1999
____________________________________________________
A trains Weekend Express Service between Euclid Av and Hoyt St
C trains extended to Euclid Av on Weekends via Local
effective May 1999
____________________________________________________
X1 and X14
Eliminate Battery Place Loop
all buses via Tunnnel ,,Greenwich St and Trinity Place
Effective December 1998
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
X17 and X31
all buses via E23 st and the FDR to the Tunnel
Afternoon Peak Period
Effective December 1998
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Q88
Reroute WESTBOUND Buses via Horace Harding Expressway ,Right on 94 st ,,Left on 59 Avenue,Left on 92 St,Right on Queens BLvd to Stand
Return via Regular Route
Effective December 1998
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
M10
NORTHBOUND buses via West St,SPRING St,,Hudson St and 8 AVenue
Effective Winter of 1999
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
IRT CHANGES
4-----8 trips added bet 10 Am and 2 PM
1 trip added bet 6 PM and 630 PM
Weekdays
5 ====Weekdays
1 trip added 430 PM to 5 PM
2 added bet 6 PM and 630 PM
7 ====weekday
13 trips added bet 630 PM and 0100 AM
1 ----Saturdays
6 trips added bet 10 AM and 200 PM
6 trips added bet 7 PM and 10 PM
1 ----Sundays
add 19 addtional round trips bet 9 AM and 8 PM ------6 min headway bet 10 30 AM and 8 PM
effective May 1999
====================================================
BX5
all buses reroute via Bruckner Expressway ,Castle Hill Av,Lafeyette Avnue,,White Plain ROad
Story Avnue
effective early 1999
====================================================
FOLEY SQUARE AREA CHANGES
effective early 1999
M1 Northbound via Church St ,Vesey St,Worth St,Centre Street
M1 SB no Changes
M15 City Hall Branch
via Park Row bet Chatham Square and City Hall
M!5 South Ferry
via Allen St,Madison St,St James Place,and Pearl,,,both directions
M22 Southbound via
Madion st,Pike st,, East Broadway ,Worth St, Lafayette St to Chambers St0
Noting the above-mentioned Foley Square area bus reroutings, does this mean that the planned reconstruction of Foley Square is about to begin - AND - maybe, JUST MAYBE, they will find and plug the horrible leak that is slowly and inexorably turning the BMT Chambers Street Station into rust and dust....THEN and ONLY THEN can they get about to the business of rehabilitating that station, something that is badly needed. Never in my travels through the system have I seen a leak on the scale that exists at Chambers Street BMT. It is a sieve, truly a sieve.
Wayne
BTW - I have ten pages of notes on things I'd like to see done at Chambers BMT. If anyone's interested, I'll transcribe it and pass it along, and I'll scan my hand-drawn sketches too.
[Noting the above-mentioned Foley Square area bus reroutings, does this mean that the planned reconstruction of Foley Square is about to begin - AND - maybe, JUST MAYBE, they will find and plug the horrible leak that is slowly and inexorably turning the BMT Chambers Street Station into rust and dust....THEN and ONLY THEN can they get about to
the business of rehabilitating that station, something that is badly needed.]
Agreed. Could that "leak" be the spring which fed Collect Pond, the little lake which predated Foley Square? Apparently, the thing became so fetid, polluted, and disgusting that it was paved over outright (sometime in the early 19th century, I think).
The reason for Foley Square is due to heightened security ,due to numerous Fed and State Bldgs in the area,,---this is NOT my opinion
There was a SPRING there? Or still IS? OY!! That's going to be the devil to fix, it is....how do you stick a plug in a spring?
I wish them all lotsa luck in this one.
Oct 31 1997 found me at Chambers, a bright sunny morning, not a cloud in the sky. But downstairs you needed an umbrella. Puddles and standing water everywhere, especially on the northbound and center platforms.
Wayne
If everyone thinks Chambers St is bad, you should try a few yards away in the sub-basement of the Supreme Courthouse (60 Centre St) It is a like a musty muddy cave down there. That was where some of the older court records were kept, and those of us who worked in the record room had to go down there all the time. The pond literally oozes up through the solid concrete floors, and it has rotted the old floor coverings, and corrodes up the shelves. They had to take all the files out and send them to archives, while they plan to fix the problem. But it's already taken its toll on my health, as I get bronchitis much easier since I've been wotking there. Before, I never used to get sick.
And to answer the original question, yes, they have been redoing the area for months. It's like a maze the way they have closed off areas and you have to go around and about to get to the train.
Since we're on the subject...
My Mom grew up in a small bulding (which is no longer there)one block from what is now Foley Square, a stone's throw from the courthouse.
She said the basement would CONSTANTLY get flooded, because there was a sub-basement that had flowing water passing through it, like a little stream. A couple of years ago, while she was doing some historical research in the area, she found out that the buildings that were built on that site still had problems with flooding and sinking sidewalks (just like Eric B. stated). The whole neighborhood is like this, and always had been.
After seeing Chambers Street, I wondered why they didn't hit this problem when the areas were being excavated for the subway, they surely had to have reached these "streams" or hit some water somehow.
While growing up, I always remembered the East Broadway station having water fall though holes in the walls and ceilings, and wondering if the walls would collapse one day!
East Broadway still drips, although it isn't quite as bad as it was
when I used to use that station in the 70s and 80s.
There's one stubborn drip along the southbound side of the platform edge, near the escalator. It's nowhere as bad as Chambers Street.
Wayne
[There was a SPRING there? Or still IS? OY!! That's going to be the devil to fix, it is....how do you stick a plug in a
spring?]
New York has defeated springs before. On Washington Square West there's an NYU dorm, Hayden Hall, that used to be a residential hotel of the 20s. Apparently there was a spring on the site, discovered or rediscovered while the hotel was under construction, and the builders recognized the problem this would present in the future. Rather than plug it up or ignore it, they managed to channel the water, forcing it through pipes to a small peeing-cherub (I think) fountain in the lobby.
The fountain is still there, relegated to a small anteroom; I saw it once or twice when I was living in the dorm a few years ago. But there was no water coming through, making me wonder if the spring had dried up of its own accord, or if the fountain had been shut off, leaving the spring to corrode the foundations of that horrible dorm...
-Daniel Casey
Hey, that is significant. I was just looking at the construction sign they put up in Foley Sq. and it said they were going to build a big fountain. Maybe this is how they will channel that spring.
I can't believe there's no extended service for the D or Q trains. There is often standing room only over the Manhattan Bridge at 3 in the morning for crying out loud!
effctive Spring 1999
A service willl be Express to Euclid
C Servcie Extended ,via Local to Euclid
These are proposed Service Changes for Weekend Services
While it may be good to see extended Fulton Street express service, wouldn't it also be nice to see the lines the TA has eliminated 24/7 express service on to get expresses back at least at the same time new express routes start?
Examples are Lexington Avenue ("temporarily" suspended to build the new express station at 59th Street some 40 years ago), Fourth Avenue (after forty years of expresses, apparently done to get people off those BMT trains), Eighth Avenue, Broadway, Queens Boulevard.
Why should Utica Avenue/Fulton Street passengers have expresses when 86th Street/Lexington, 179th Street/Hillside, 59th Street/Fourth Avenue, 14th Street/Eighth Avenue and other lines don't? Let's be fair to the whole city--night and weekend riders pay the same fare as rush-hour people.
Ed Alfonsin/SUNY at Potsdam
Hear hear! What a fine proposal! Let's start with the trunk lines in Manhattan that lack expresses: A and C. I'll bet a cookie that once the 24/7 Brooklyn express starts, you'll see ditto in Manhattan. Then, we turn our attention to the Lexington Avenue line 4 and 6 service, bringing back nighttime local and express trains. In 2002, once the 63rd Street connector opens, Queens Boulevard would get Q service, which kills two birds with one stone: Brighton express 24/7 PLUS maybe the E gets to play the 24/7 express train along Queens Boulevard along with rush hour/midday Q expresses to 179th Street. The Broadway lack of express service won't get resolved until the Manhattan Bridge project is complete, whenever that is. Look to see a repositioned Q express there, running via 63rd Street out to Queens once all is said and done.
Wayne
And if the slant R-40s remain on the Q, we'll be treated to a nice express run in Queens as well as in Brooklyn! Not to outdo the R-38s on the A, of course.
But it won't be 24/7. Just weekends and evenings, meaning 8-11, 12, or 1. Some of those lines you mentioned have expresses for most of those times.
Don't begrudge this side of town. Ever try getting over here on evenings or weekends, with all local service, incredibly slow bus runs, no M into Manhattan, poor connections, etc.? We need it, even when the bridge is open!
aS i SAID IN AN EARLIER POST,IT IS VERY POSSIBLE WHEN THE BRIDGE IS FINISHED,24/7 A LINE EXP AND C LOCAL SERVICE MAY BE A REALITY.
I know what you mean. You'd think the late night trains are mostly empty, but about a year ago I needed to take the downtown local from 68th St around midnight for a period of time. It was PACKED, almost as bad as rush hours (which is a solid wall of humanity by the time it reaches that station). Part of the reason is because the #6 stops running about that time. If any trunk needs 24/7 expresses or at least more night service, it's the Lex. Ave.!
M Service
Metropolitan Av to Marcy Av Brooklyn
24 hours 7 days a week
J / Z Service
Jamaica Center Queens and Myrtle Av ( Z will operate bet Jamaica Ctr and Eastern Parkway )
24 hrs ,7 days a week,, (Z will operate Rush Hours ONLY)
Off
Stops-----off peak and Weekend via Local
--- ------Rush Hours Local Myrtle to Eastern Pkwy ----------Skip Stop bet Eastern Pkwy and Jamaica ==========Center
Manhattan Subway Shuttles Between Broad St and Essex St ( Chambers St on Weekends) from 6 Am to 10 PM daily
South Brooklyn M Service will operate bet Bay Parkway and Chambers St ,,Rush HOurs,,730 AM to 9 Am and 330PM to 7 15 PM
Additonal L Service on Weekends and Rush Hours
A/C additiona service in Brooklyn during Rush Hours
...addtional Late evening Express and new weekend express to match new Weekend C Local service
Queens Blvd Corridor
Peak Hours,service diverted from F to E,with putins from Union Tpke ...During evening hours ,additional F Servcie to be added
BUSES
B39 shuttles bet Williamsbridge Plaza and Norfolk St on the Manhattan Side==No Fare on this route
Service to added on the B26,B38,B43,B46 and B52
I read in this that they are planning to divert some peak hours service from the F to the E...why??? why???
The F is crowded and mobbed enough already...to take service away from it is crazy....
Why are they planning to do something this stupid???
[I read in this that they are planning to divert some peak hours service from the F to the E...why??? why???
The F is crowded and mobbed enough already...to take service away from it is crazy....
Why are they planning to do something this stupid???]
Think about it, Barry. The E and the J/Z both start their trips at Jamaica Center. If the J and Z are not going into Manhattan and the E is, where are those people who get on the J/Z in Jamaica going to go? Answer: to the E. The Union Turnpike put-ins will probably allow people who get on past the Archer Avenue Line an opportunity to board E trains, as the E trains out of Jamaica Center are likely to be packed.
David
Two questions...
What do you mean by the Union Turnpike put-ins?
Secondly, you may have a valid point...but especially with a huge MTA surplus, why is it necessary to screw over F riders, who already cope with mobbed peak hour trains, to give the E the service it needs...it seems you could do it without screwing up F train service.
"Union Turnpike put ins" will be trains that begin their trips at Union Tpk.
No, you cannot just run more F trains without decreasing the frequency of some other train. That is because the line is at capacity at Queensborough Plaza. Adding more trains will lead to a traffic jam, resulting in loss of capacity. That is why the MTA is spending many $$$$ on the 63rd street tunnel.
I am not sure if the line east of QB plaza is also at capacity.
They should have had E train put ins at Union Tpke years ago.
They once did, but then moved them to Archer.
What about sending the R back out to 179th, just for this diversion?
Maybe weekend Fulton St. express service will be permanently retained after the Williamsburg Bridge project is completed.
It was interesting to read about E train put-ins at Union Turnpike. Assuming that such trains will begin their runs on the express track, does that mean that E trains from Parsons/Archer will make local stops before reaching Continental Ave? Also, what equipment would be used for put-ins? Do the R-32s or R-46s have Union Turnpike or Kew Gardens signs? While this is impertinent, I have seen "Queens-Kew Gardens" signs on salvaged R-1/9 destination roller curtains (none of my curtains have this sign, though).
The rumor is that after the bridge work is done ,Fulton st express service will be 24/7 meaning the C line to Euclid 24/7.If the E put-ins out of Union Tpke come out of Jamaica yard,then an occassional Parsons bound E train will operate local from Continental ave because the put-ins will have to turn back to go south on D4 track north of Union Tpke.(yard lead is north of union tpke). Iwas thinking they also could lay-up on the F line on D3 tk north of VanWyck blvd.F line service shouldn't be affected by this.Any F layups to Jamaica yd will have to go via the local tk and will have to get onto the yard lead right away.Both R46 and R32 have Union Tpke signs.This shouldnt matter because they are just going into service there,not terminating there.In fact a couple of years ago,there was a slow speed order between Jamaica Van Wyck and Supthin blvd.As a result,several Queens bound E trains terminated at Union Tpke and operated to Jamaica yard to alleviate congestion at Jamaica center.They had Jamaica center signs on them.The conductor was required to make a special announcement on affected trains
I just remembered that what they are more likely to do is operate the E trains that are stored on the lay-up tracks at Parsons-Archer,lite(not in service)to UnionTpke and go in service there.
Why don't they just cancel the M train between Chambers and Bay Parkway.
Then they can increase B, N, and R train service in that area.
NOBODY uses the M train in southern Brooklyn.
It was a waste to begin with.
SOME people do ride it! Eventhough the loads are relatively light due to not as much employment compared to years ago in the Wall St. area, those riders are paying customers! If the M is cut out, the West End Line loses a good chunk of its service. You can't add more B trains because the merge with the D/Q. You probably have this dislike for the M train because it doesn't take you where you want to go!
On the other hand, maybe the guy has a point.
Lots of Rs turn around at Whitehall during the rush hour. Let's say you ran those extra Rs down to the West End instead of extending the M. No difference coming in. Going out, however, West Enders would walk over to the N/R and get one train every 2 1/2 minutes heading home. As it is, they wait up to 10 minutes on Broad St for the M. My wife used to take the M to Union on her way to Park Slope some times, but I convinced her to take the 2/3 instead. Somewhat longer walk; much shorter wait.
I disagree.First of all lots of R trains don't turn around at rush hour.There are 2 extra trains that come from City Hall during the P.M rush.They turn at Whitehall and go into service to Queens.I don't think 2 is a lot.Second, your point of West Enders walking to the N/R and getting a train every 2 1/2 minutes.Are you kidding me! Thats funny because every time I pull into Court Lawrence sts or Dekalb ave the platform is packed with people.Even though the M line runs a 8-9 minute headway during rush hour there are times in Brooklyn when you get 2 M trains in a row because of lousy N/R service.As a result,we get called upon to provide service to 95st lots of times.BTW we also have to go to Stillwell frequently because of the USUAL delays on the Bline. I guess if the M is eliminated there will be huge gaps in R or B service if those lines are late which is every day. BTW the only time lots of trains would get turned back at Whitehall is if there is a big mechanical problem between Rector and Canal sts.
Hey Larry on 12-4 When I was at Bay Parkway,I observed 3 M trains arrive at Bay Parkway before a B showed up.
(Service on B, N, R is so bad the infrequent M often arrives more frequently than these trains).
No doubt the BMT is bad: I avoid it like the plague. According to the census of population, from 1980 to 1990 subway ridership fell 11 percent in the community districts served by the BMT southern division while rising 18 percent in the rest of Brooklyn.
If the Broadway and 6th Ave lines are so bad, and the Nassau Line is better, how about terminating all Rs at Whitehall, and replacing R service with J/Z service to 95th St in Brooklyn? The route would be the same in Brooklyn, and Lower Manhattan would still be served, but you could go to one station and still have many trains going by which would get you as far as DeKalb/Pacific. As it is, if you are going to , say, Union St in Park Slope you can either go to Rector and have one train every six minutes (allegedly) or Broad and have one train every 10 minutes. Put both on the Nassau St, and you get one train every four minutes at the same station.
J/Z to 95th St? Why, you'd be resurrecting the short-lived and long-forgotten RJ rush hour route of 1967-68. Then again, if it proved to be popular.
Larry Littlefield writes, "No doubt the BMT is bad: I avoid it like the plague. According to the census of population, from 1980 to 1990
subway ridership fell 11 percent in the community districts served by the BMT southern division while rising 18 percent in the rest of Brooklyn."
It ought to be clear from those figures that the TA's long program of more and more cuts on those lines becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
The elimination of express service and reducing lines to shuttles certainly don't attract riders. It would be interesting to see the ridership figures from 1950 (pre-TA), 1960 (post-Culver and dropping of night expresses), 1970 (post-Chrystie) to see what damage to the BMT the TA has really done.
Just one example--from 59th Street/Fourth Avenue to 34th Street/Herald Square at 3:00 a.m. in 1956 on a Sea Beach ('N')--stops were 59th, 36th, Pacific, Canal, 14th, 34th--six stops. In 1998, same trip: 59th, 53rd, 45th, 36th, 25th, Prospect, 9th, Union, Pacific, DeKalb, Lawrence, Court, Whitehall, Rector, Cortlandt, City Hall, Canal, Prince, 8th, 14th, 23rd, 28th, 34th--twenty-three stops, with your butt sliding back and forth at every stop on the fibreglass seats.
The running time, too, is an awful lot longer nowadays.
I'm surprised the ridership isn't down even more--it's probably only the traffic on the Shore Parkway/Belt/BQE/Gowanus that keeps more people from abandoning the subway completely.
When do they start paving the 4th Avenue express tracks so they can run the bus that would be all that's needed to carry the remnant of passengers left?
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
(and a Brooklynite in Exile these many years)
Keep in mind, too, that back in the good old days, N trains ran over the Manhattan Bridge, which saved a significant amount of running time into Manhattan. Interestingly enough, it was the West End line which experienced cutbacks in through service; the Sea Beach was a 24/7 operation except during the late 70s thru mid-80s. Late night and Sunday express service in Brooklyn was dropped at some point prior to that, though.
--twenty-three stops, with your butt sliding back and forth at every stop on the fibreglass seats.
The above line struck a nerve with me. Longitudinal seating on trains and buses that stop frequently is very uncomfortable. I wish subway cars and buses had more transverse seating and less longitudinal seats.
He had to have gotten an R32. R68s and R46s have the transverse seating, and they serve both "N" and "R" lines. Why don't they put in
bucket seats (like the R62/62A) on the R32s next time they go in for an overhaul? Ditto for the R38, R40, R42.
Wayne
Personally, I think even 58 years past unification, and the fact that Mayor Hylan has been dead just about as long, there seems to be a lingering pro-IND bias in the TA's operation as far as priorities are concerned. I'm not saying everything is perfect on the city-created system, but sometime it looks like the projects that benefit the IND system get priority over those that would help the BMT and IRT (the Manhatann Brigde, reworking the Nostrand Ave. crossover for the 2-5 in Brooklyn)
I've had that feeling since the late 60s, when the MTA planned to shift the Pelham Bay line from the IRT to the IND for the proposed Second Ave. line and they started running three Sixth Ave trains (B, D and F) to Coney Island. But I'm sure IND riders (especially on the F in Brooklyn, judging by the posts) may have a different opinion.
2 problems: as soon as you make a line longer mileage wise: you are increasing the odds of lateness; & your plan would cause lots of people who are now taking one train have to take two!
By the time she takes the longer walk......and waits that precious extra 4 minutes for the M.......she can ride the M which is much less crowded than the 2/3.......
WAY TO GO BILL!
Why dont they make the M train terminate on Dekalb or Pacific and then go right back to Metropolitan. Maybe with the shorter line they could run it on the weekends all the way till at least Broad st
Dear Friend, I agree totally with your suggestion re: the M. I live near Marcy Ave.(ground zero).
If they wanted service to Broad st, then they would run the J train down there on weekends.Where would you turn M trains back to Metropolitan ave if you terminated at DeKalbave orPacific sts? BTW on 12-10 and 12-11 ,One M train on each day was sent to Stillwell ave via the Sea Beach line.Big delays in N service.M TRAIN TO THE RESCUE ONCE AGAIN. M LINE RULES!!!!!!!!!
Thursday 12/10 PM rush: at least one M train rerouted over N line to Stillwell due to delays in N service. Friday 12/11 PM rush: one M train rerouted to 95 St. due to delays in R service. Same PM rush: one M train (mine) rerouted over N line to Stillwell due to delays in N service. Do I need to say more? This is an everyday occurrence with at least one M train daily not going to Bay Pkwy like it is supposed to, not to mention getting sent thru to Stillwell B due to late trains there. Because of all this, service returning to Metropolitan is inconsistent. The last time I looked, The on time performance for the M was much higher than all the other southern division lines. The M personell have a motto: "We're not yellow, we go anywhere". We bail those other lines out all the time. Eliminate the M, who is going to bail out the next B,N or R train?
WAY TO GO BILL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There is no place to turn at DeKalb; if you turn at Pacific, what happens to the B & N trains which has to use the express track where you want the M to turn? Think about it!
Is this the official word? Where did you get it from?
I would also like to see the B18 extended the few blocks to the Plaza, and maybe some routes extended over the bridge (Who wants to change several times?)
Also, they should have limited stop service on the B54 and B38
I don't know why they proposed skip-stop service on the L in 1991 along with a series of drastic cuts(such as the C and Aexp. being replaced by the Q to 207th), but won't consider it now.
Here's an idle question: when do they say it'll be over?
Has anyone seen the picture of the Advanced Rapid Transit (ART) Train the PA has ordered for its rail link program. if you go to bombardier.com, Click On English, Then Transportation,Then Transit Systems,Then New York there is a picture and info. My question is, Is that what it will really look like, and where will the tracks that lead up to the abondoned el off the A route start. In The Airport, Or more near howard Beach?
Who remembers the Fifth Avenue Coach and Surface Transit old looks, #series 2600s and 3000 respectively, with the protruding sign box?
These buses were taken over by MaBSTOA in 1962. For some reason, the destination signs were reversed.
These buses had fluorescent lighting, push out rear doors, the rear seat was half moon shaped. And the driver had a door partition! MaBSTOA quickly removed this item. FACO buses had Grant fareboxes and Surface had the old Johnson "D" models.
Surface Transit also had 10 Mack C-49s, #series 3000, with the same options, except the protruding box.
I remember riding a bus with the half-moon rear seats, but I don't recall anything else different about it. I only saw this bus once on the M13 back in around 1979 or so. Was I on the bus mentioned here, or was this some other oddball?
The TA also had some TDH 5106s with hard plastic seats in the half moon shape. They were pink in color! They were in the 9000 number series. The windows were not the traditional lift type instead they were the sliding type. #9098 is in the Museum Fleet. I don't believe they had any other oddity.
YES! I remember that the seats were pink!
There were also some funky early Flxibles on the M13 for awhile. They appeared around the same time as the 7000 series, though I imagine they had been transferred from somewhere else, as they were considerably older.
Question: Are you guys talking about a group of GMCs that had both Bat Wings & Frankenstein Brows or were the FRANKS a different bus ?
Second question: Did the depot folks call them that too or is it just a buff handle ?
E.G. The add on Cubic unit to the GFI farebox is called a Shoe Box, but not by the mfg. They give you a dirty look, but know what you're talking about ;-o
Mr t__:^)
The TA's 7100-7208 series old looks had the half moon seats, too. Yes, they were pink. The fishbowls with the red seats in the back to which we referred earlier in this string also came numbered in the 3600-3700 range. I remember seeing them run out of Flushing and Jamaica. From the outside, one noticeable difference was the tail lights. Older fishbowls had lenses which were "countersunk", while this series, and later fishbowls in the 1960s had more of flush-mounted taillights.
Two different types of bus models. The "bat wings" were only placed on GM fishbowls. The "brow" were GM old looks that Fifth Avenue Coach Company purchased in 1958. In fact they were the last TDH 5106 bus models ever built!
The protruding box is said to have contained fluorescent lighting equipment. This box was located in the exterior front of the bus above the windshield were the destination sign curtain is located.
The desing reminded me of the Frankenstein monster's brow.
Miami, Florida had GM fishbowls with bat wings and Flxible fishbowls with bat wings. Both type of wings were different. The GM chrome sections sloped down and back. The Flxible chrome sections sloped down but forward.
No manufacturer brochure from this period, mid 1960s-1970s, showed this option.
P.S. The only buses to have this protruding sign box were the Fifth Avenue Coach/Surface Transit (later they went to MaBSTOA, in 1962) TDH 5106s (built 1958). No other company had these!
Thanks for the info. Mr t__:^)
I remember those buses. They ran on the Bx12 line. They were the first buses (at least that I was aware of) NOT to have the "step down to exit" rear doors that automatically opened when someone stood in the rear door stairwell at a bus stop. Why they had the destination signs stick out like that I don't know. That was years before the "bat wing" buses.
Has anyone been out to Washington Square Park this afternoon? There's a guy out there with a prototype for his "Combustion Free" transit car. I didn't have time to check it out today, but I read something about it a while ago. It may well be more ingeneious than it is practical but at least someone is THINKING!!!
It works by gravity. Passengers board a rail car at an elevated point. The car slides down a rail towards its destination using the force of gravity. While the car is sliding, it uses the weight of the passengers, who have climbed a flight or two of stairs to board the train, to lift a counter weight, which is later used to raise the empty car, at the bottom of the run, to a new elevated platform, where new passengers are waiting to board for the return trip.
I am not saying that all the bugs have been worked out, but this is the kind of bold thinking we need to plat the seeds of the ideas of tomorrow.
If anyone is near the north side of Washington Square Park, Check it out!
And some of my classmates at MIT "invented" a perpetual motion machine too. Look closely at the design, and you'll find that in this world you don't get somethin' for nothin'!
Something for nothing is not the claim of this system. It claims to be "combustion free" not "energy free" The energy that runs the train comes from the passengers legs when they climb the stairs. Their weight carries the train downhill and also hoists the lightweight Passengerless train to a starting position for the return trip.
1. Let's say the train weighs 1000 lbs.
2. Passengers, weighing another 1000 lbs., climb the stairs and board.
3. The 2000 lb. Train slides down the rail.
4. While sliding the 2000 lb. train hoists a counter weight which weighs 1100 lbs.
5. The passengers get off at the bottom, leaving the 1000 lb. car.
6. The elevated 1100 lb. Weight is released, hoisting the 1000 lb. car
to an elevated position for the return trip.
7. More heavy passengers board and the process is repeated.
The train runs on energy stored up from the exertion of passengers climbing stairs.
As I said in the first place.
So I guess the first step is to invent a 1000 lb train, eh?
Let's see. If F=m*a...
That was just an example as to how it works.
Go see the prototype.
And open your mind a little.
Sorry to say it Chris, but such a system could never be approved, because it discriminates against the handicapped, who can't climb stairs. Of course you could have an elevator just for them, but that would use electricity, which would require combustion. Moreover, the handicapped would never accept being forced to ride in a segregated elevator (remember the public toilets we were supposed to get?), so you'd have to lift everyone in an elevator. I'm surprised there aren't a bunch of activists picketing this guy already.
I'm sorry, I though it was a neat Idea.
And since when have the handicapped had equal access to NYC subways anyway???
(Since when has the subway had handicapped access).
Here in NYC, everything old is good, and grandfathered. Thus the subways are good even without handicapped access. But anything new must meet millions of requirements, since anything new is bad, and we must be protected from it. Anything new that makes a profit is bad because that means the greedy corporations are exploiting us. Anything new done by the government is bad because that means the powers that be are imposing a conspiracy on the community. The only thing that might not be bad is a something new produced by a non-profit organization and funded by the government and serving the elderly. Perhaps if the "zero combustion transit" were presented as such, it might fly. Perhaps the inventor can find an example of one from the "good old days" and claim to be engaging is "historic preservation."
Larry, Larry, Larry. I do not think it is fair to blame the handicapped on the lack of transit invesment in NY. And, I will put myself on record as saying that I think ADA is a very good thing.
Back to the subject, Chris. Do not confuse skepticism with close-mindedness. A couple of years ago, there were people saying that any fool with a chemistry set could get fusion going in their kitchen, solving the worlds energy and pollution problems. Well, they were not open- minded. They were wrong. And I do not think Todd is close-minded.
Todd points out that you need a lot of people to get a significant weight compared to a train. A subway car weighs something like 100,000 lbs, or so. If you put a counterweight on it that is heavy enough to lift it, then the train will go downhill v e r y slowly. It will come back uphill v e r y slowly. And it probably will not work because of friction.
Sorry about that!
Other problems:
What if it is a quiet time of day and only a couple of people want to ride?
Would this really be economic for a short line. How deep would a long line like the A have to go in order to be gravity driven?
It's just plain physics. Remember:
= *
:-)
This guy's prototype was small like large passenger van and seemed to be of much lighter construction than, say, the IRT. And this is just some JOE from Texas, not NASA or Boeing. I never said that I thought this was the way of the future, I was only marveling at the original concept. I'm sorry I brought it up.
If this system operated with no frictional losses, and if the height of the stairs was 20 ft., it could obtain a top speed of 25 feet per second, or about 17 miles per hour.
Energy input = mgh = 1000 lbs x 32 ft/sec2 x 20 ft.
= 640,000 fps energy units
Kinetic energy likewise = 640,000 units = 1/2 mv2
where m = 2000 lbs, but 1/2 m is again 1000 lbs, so v2=640 ft2/sec2, and v = 25.3 fps.
That is with perfect efficiency, which doesn't exist.
Again I apologize. Both for bringing it up, and for they guy who brought his prototype out for people to look at. Its a good thing that everyone missed it. Otherwise their minds might have been corrupted by a notion. If I could be allowed to continue to post messages from time to time, I promise not to mention anything that does not conform to the strictest MTA standards of what is real and what makes sense. Pondering is a diversion, the IRT is forever.
Let's not be cranky. Just because lots of people don't agree that this particular idea is practical doesn't mean people don't want to hear what you want to say. These discussions should not be taken personally.
Yes, this has been an interesting discussion. So don't apologize for posting! Just don't take things personally.
If you work in science or engineering (I do) you have to get used to the fact that you will be wrong sometimes. Conclusively proved to be wrong. Not someones opinion - just wrong. We cannot take that personally, or progress would not exist. Einstein got a lot of things wrong, for instance.
The reason people get annoyed sometimes - particularly engineers, for instance, is that someone who comes along with a scheme that seems so simple is often implicitly implying (Chris C. was not) that any idiot could have thought of this and if they weren't such eggheads, they would have. They get tired of being assumed to be dumb...
This certainly also applies, to say, decision making at MTA. Just this week somebody posted something to the effect of "Those \$%^&%$* at the MTA are screwing us F riders by switching trains from the F to the E!!!! Why don't they just run more Es and leave us alone? Idiots! Well, they cannot do that. But people assume that they know the whole story and that the slob at the MTA is just an idiot. Insult first and ask questions later.
Yes, this has been an interesting discussion. So don't apologize for posting! Just don't take things personally.
If you work in science or engineering (I do) you have to get used to the fact that you will be wrong sometimes. Conclusively proved to be wrong. Not someones opinion - just wrong. We cannot take that personally, or progress would not exist. Einstein got a lot of things wrong, for instance.
The reason people get annoyed sometimes - particularly engineers, for instance, is that someone who comes along with a scheme that seems so simple is often implicitly implying (Chris C. was not) that any idiot could have thought of this and if they weren't such eggheads, they would have. They get tired of being assumed to be dumb...
This certainly also applies, to say, decision making at MTA. Just this week somebody posted something to the effect of "Those \$%^&%$* at the MTA are screwing us F riders by switching trains from the F to the E!!!! Why don't they just run more Es and leave us alone? Idiots! Well, they cannot do that. But people assume that they know the whole story and that the slob at the MTA is just an idiot. Insult first and ask questions later. No wonder few decision-makers from MTA post here....
Back again with three vexing questions.
How long is the incline that takes:
The 'E' from mainline 8th Avenue to the turn to 53rd St?
The 2/3 from Broadway to the turn to 104th St?
And typically, how far is the platform from the beginning of the incline?
Also, how long(in feet) is the typical city block in Manhattan? Isn't it something like 20 blocks(between streets not avenues)to a mile?
Yes, in midtown Manhattan, there are 20 blocks per mile.
The incline for the E where it branches off from the 8th Ave. mainline begins about halfway between 42nd and 50th Sts. heading north, or Queens-bound. The diverging switch from the express track is located just past the tower at the north end of 42nd St. (at which point the line is beneath 44th St), while the switch from the local track, which E trains use, is further north. The mainline tracks climb uphill at this point. The lower level platforms at 50th St., where E trains stop, begin slightly further south of the mainline platforms. In fact, the southern ends of the lower level platforms are visible from above before the mainline express and local tracks resume their side-by-side alignment. I'd have to say the incline is no more than 3 or 4 blocks long.
I don't think these is any typical length between an incline and the end of a platform; in fact, some inclines begin before the station ends!
Anyone have an idea on which station in the system is built on the biggest slope from one end to the other. Rector Street on the N/R comes to mind. The tile row that runs near the platform leve at the north end is up near the ceiling at the south end. Herald Square IND also has a pretty good uphill incline.
I can think of two others:
- 7th Ave Brooklyn (D/Q)
- Grand St, Manhattan (B/D/Q) - a reverse incline! The center of the station is at the lowest point.
--Mark
Can anyone provide details on this bus? It was seen in service Thursday, December 10 on the M-60 route heading towards LaGuardia Airport. The bus seems to have C.N.G. tanks on the roof, but they were about half in size than any other C.N.G. bus seen in regular service. It also did not have alloy wheels. Is this a NYCTA rebuild? Thanks for any info.
its an experimental bus. i havent seen it yet but it may be a hybrid like the orions. from what i heard it sounds like the nova lfs(low floor).
Is there anybody who knows about the Old Bethpage branch?
This branch turned off the main line between bethpage and farmingdale and headed north east along round swamp road.
I would like to know when it was abandoned.
So THAT's what I saw one time out on the Green Course! I had no idea it went so far up. One old map of mine (now lost), showed a spur off of where the two branches (Ronkonkoma and Bethpage-Babylon) diverge, with the tracks going only as far as I guess Central Avenue (looking at my current Nassau Hagstrom). Anyone out there who knows more on this please fill me in.
Thanks
Wayne
If you go on that horse path that runs along Round Swamp, in the thick trees just before the fire dept practice field, you will find the remains of an old engine round house.
Well I won't be up again that way until the Spring [this time I get to RIDE on the Green! :o) ] I'll put a note in my notebook to go look for it after my round. It must have been abandoned at the same time as the section from Uniondale to Farmingdale - didn't that section get taken over by the Vanderbilt Motor Parkway or run alongside it or was the LIRR the ROW just north (along Orchid Road and Polaris Drive in Levittown)
Wayne
[ It must have been abandoned at the same time as the section from Uniondale to Farmingdale - didn't that section get taken over by the Vanderbilt Motor Parkway or run alongside it or was the LIRR the ROW just north (along Orchid Road and Polaris Drive in Levittown) ]
vanderbuilt pkwy never took over the section of railroad from
mitchellfield to bethpage. it ran along side (north side) of it through bethpage and parts of levittown.
this section was once part of A.T.Stewart's Central RR of LI.
this line ran from flushing meadows past creedmore and floral park. it cuts through garden city (used today) crossing the LIRR original Hempstead branch, then uniondale, mitchell field, salisbury, eastmeadow, levitown, bethpage and on to babylon (babylon to bethpage still used).
my understanding is that portions was abandoned in the 30s and 40s (from tower B to bethpage).
levitown eastmeaddow portions were used for freight until the 50s.
some trains supplied materials during the building of levitown.
i have a picture (late 40s to 50s) of the right of way near newbridge road where the single track ran parallel to the LICO high tension wires. the track was north of the wires.
getting back to the old bethpage branch issue -
this branch use to turn of the main line at new merrits road crossing
posibly followed powell ave (now homes) to round swamp road.
this branch, has as far a i know, nothing to do with the Central RR of LI.
I remember the Creedmoor branch being used by coal trains as late as 1963. There was a wooded area south of Hillside Avenue (between 235th Court and 239th Street, now a ballfield), where these tracks could still be seen. By 1968 this spur had been abandoned, but some stretches of track (west of Cross Island Parkway; the section from the main line to 249th street, crossing Jericho Turnpike on a trestle) remained well into the 70s. When they redid the hill at Little Neck Parkway and Jericho Turnpike round about 1982, the trestle was taken down, the rest of the right of way became a parking lot. I doubt if any of the tracks remain, although you can still see the underpass beneath the Cross Island Parkway.
Wayne
According to Seyfried's "The Long Island Rail Road - a Comprehensive History" (7 volumes), the Bethpage breanch WAS built by the Central RR and opened for service in June, 1873 for frieght only, specifically to bring bricks from the Bethpage Hills to A.T. Stewart's new Garden City. Previously, the bricks had to be hauled to the Central line near Jerusalem by horses. Passenger service on the branch started in November, 1874. I don't know for sure when the branch was abandoned, but I think it was a few years before WWII.
Check out my LIRR History Website for more info on the Central Branch at http://www.pipeline.com/~robertwa/central.html
I've lived in New York City my entire life and I never go anywhere. And my interest in the history of the subway makes me want to join up witht the Transit Museum's tours. Alas, many of you have the same idea, and we end up with a 40 person waiting list. The question is, can anyone think of what kind of tours I could do solo, minus someone letting me into special places and guiding me. Things worth seeing for someone who doesn't go anywhere. I know there are abandoned platforms and stations visible to a subway traveller, but can anyone think up a good route in which to see them?
Hello All. I just wanted to know if they are any subway tours scheduled for the Christams holiday, between Dec28-Jan 15. The reason is I will be home from college and would like to take a tour of some cool places of the subway. I have been very interested in the subway since I was a little kid. You probably have seen my name here a few times mostly an advocate for the G train loop into Manhattan or to that effect. I would appreciate any information.
Thanks
The "Routes Not Built" tour originally scheduled for late November was postponed due to illness. It is tentatively scheduled to occur in early January, but I do not know when. You may want to call the NYTM and inquire about cancellations to that tour because of it being rescheduled. Other than this tour, there's nothing planned yet for the time frame you're looking for. The museum calendar for the winter and fall isn't due until early next year, too.
You could always go on a tour of your own armed with a subway map. Here's an example:
- Start at Gun Hill Road (2/5) and you can see remnants of the lower level platform serving the defunct 3rd Ave EL
- Take the 2 to 96th St, transfer to the 1. Riding the #1 will allow you to see 91st st. Take it to Times Square, get off and see where the shuttle route used to connect to the line under Broadway. You can see the former private entrance to the Knickerbocker Hotel. You might also want to talk around the Times Square interchange because there's a lot there. Look for old mosaics on the wall or faded signs of times gone by.
- Take the shuttle to Grand Central. Walk around Grand central - it was recently redone.
- Take the #6 downtown to Brooklyn Bridge. That will allow you to see 18th St, the 14th St side platforms and Worth St. At Brooklyn Bridge, walk towards the Chambers St (J/M/Z) and get a glimpse of the closed side platform. (You can't ride around City Hall Loop anymore. Security issue with an upcoming federal terrorist trial at Foley Square).
- Take the #4 one stop to Fulton St and transfer to the 2 or 3 uptown. Take the 2 or 3 to Chambers St. Transfer at Chambers St to the #1 downtown and ride around South Ferry. You can see the inner loop and parts of that inner platform as well.
- Take the 1 back to Chambers St, then take a 2 or 3 into Brooklyn and get off at Nevins St. Transfer to a Manhattan bound train, but while walking underneath the platforms, look to your right for a door with slats in it, and look through it. You'll see a small part of the lower platform at Nevins St that never opened.
- Return to Manhattan with the train of your choice (2/3/4/5).
That's just one idea, I'm sure others will have good ideas, too.
--Mark
You can also ride the IND and see provisions for Second System lines which were never built. At Bedford-Nostrand Aves. on the G, there is a middle track which was put in for a planned extension along Lafayette Ave. At Utica Ave. on the A/C, there is a station shell built into the ceiling, in plain sight, for a never-built Utica Ave. line. And at Roosevelt Ave. on the Queens line, there is a built-but-never-used terminal station at the eastern end of the mezzanine outside of the paid-fare zone which would have been the terminus for a line out to the Rockaways. It's used for material storage and as a police station.
You can't really see much at Roosevelt Ave. since practically all the eastern mezzanine has been closed off. But if you can, catch a local G or R train at Queens Plaza and ride it to 71-Continental. Pick a train where you can see out the front window. Take note of the 63rd St. connection, and the various stubs of planned, but not built, additions and alterations. The stubs and ramps (on the Manhattan-bound side) east of Roosevelt, part of the Roosevelt Ave. terminus, is probably the most comprehensive.
If I'm not mistaken, there is another bellmouth on the Queens line west of 63rd Drive-Rego Park which would have provided access to the Winfield spur to the Rockaways for Manhattan-bound trains.
Is it true that the connection used by the Archer Ave. line was put in when the Queens line was originally built? There was supposed to be a branch down Van Wyck Blvd to 120th Ave. or thereabouts. I rode an F out to 179th St. once ten years ago, just before the Archer Ave. line opened, and saw the ramps past Van Wyck Blvd.
There are stubs around there, located one on each side. Don't remember what it was for though, it could have been another planned connection to the Rockaway line. However, would it have been much faster than the current route? And it connects to the local tracks to boot.
If you join the Transit Museum, you get "early notice" of tours, and the opportunity to sign-up before the general public. If you call right away when the brochure comes out, you shouldn't have to worry about waiting lists for tours.
On Wednesday 12-9,Iwas on a westbound Ronkonkoma branch train.As we approached Hillside Maintenance Facility,I noticed more double deckers on a side track that was on a curve.I got 1 number:5026.I don't know whether they had that one in service or not.Anyway, there were a loy of cars there.Also at Hillside,there was a freight move going on.It involved MP15 151 with a NYand Atlantic logo and LIRR GP38 276.Does anyone know if the LIRR has some sort of working arrangement with NY and Atlantic or is the LIRR starting to sell their GP 38s to NYand Atlantic?
It was my understanding that some of the LIRR fleet without HEP (Head End Power) was to be sold or given (unsure of the money change) to NY and Atlantic as well as some of the Cabooses though a Caboose is no longer required for most of the frieght movement on the LIRR.
Last time at Hicksville (Divide tower) we had to wait for a Geep in LIRR colors to clear a move over the divide before we went to Hunington (this was the weekend diseal Hicksville to Pt Jeff) about 3 months ago.
AFIK, none of the old LIRR fleet has hep, hence the need for the "Power Packs"
That statement is wrong to a degree. The 2700 and 2800 series coaches were once MU's powered by third rail DC. When they were converted to push-pull coaches, the traction motors were removed and the power packs were then created to power the cars ie: air-conditioning, heating and lighting. The 2900 series cars were always push pull. They had small diesel generators underneath each car to provide the air-conditioning, heating and lighting. Thus no power pack is needed for trains consisting of this fleet.
By the way 2700/2800 cars are not put into service on the same trains as 2900 series cars.
A friend of mine read in the Riverdale Press a few days ago that the mta will tear down #1 train stations in the bronx. The stations in question are 242nd street, 238th street, 231st street and 225th street. This means that the folks who use these stations will have to take a bus or other means of transportatin to the 215th street station in Manhattan. Has anybody else read or heard about this?
I have been away on vacation and out of the loop for a while.
Charlie Muller.
[A friend of mine read in the Riverdale Press a few days ago that the mta will tear down #1 train stations in the bronx. The stations in question are 242nd street, 238th street, 231st street and 225th street. This means that the folks who use these stations will have to take a bus or other means of transportatin to the 215th street station in Manhattan. Has anybody else read or heard about this?
I have been away on vacation and out of the loop for a while.
Charlie Muller.]
This is EXTREMELY unlikely. 231st Street and 225th Street were recently rehabilitated. More importantly, there's a subway yard and shop at 240th Street. Even if service above 215th Street were to cease, the line would have to remain open so the yard and shop could be accessed.
David
There was a plan to end the train at Dykman (& use the 207th St yard in the mid-1980s). At that time, Kingsbridge was primarily occupied by elderly whites, and the line was little used. But the neighborhood has since changed. Such a proposal is unlikely to ever be approved.
I had read a similar article which seemed to indicate that the entire Bronx #1 line would be torn down to alleviate congestion and crowding further down the line.
Or the line could be extended a few stops, and have the same effect forthe line. New capacity is added, and the line has more traisn per hour, relieving crowding. As to new passengers at new stations, there would be some, but many of the passengers would be ones that got on at 242nd Street. Crowding would be relieved, and the line would be more attractive, vs. tearing it down and making the line unattractive to riders from the bronx.
I think the #1 in the Bronx will maintain the status quo for the forseeable future. While the #1 is not a particularly fast ride to Manhattan from 242 nd St, I doubt if the Bronx politicians will allow this subway line to be torn down. I also don't think there is much point in extending the service up Broadway to the Yonkers city line. Yonkers has Metro north and Riverdale has express bus service and a Metro North station.
Or the line could be extended a few stops, and have the same effect for the line. New capacity is added, and the line has more traisn per hour, relieving crowding. As to new passengers at new stations, there would be some, but many of the passengers would be ones that got on at 242nd Street. Crowding would be relieved, and the line would be more attractive, vs. tearing it down and making the line unattractive to riders from the bronx.
This makes no sense. Would adding some trains help to alleviate crowding? How congested is the line north of 137th St, anyway?
--Mark
My experience is that the 1/9 fills at 242nd & most of the folks travel all the way down the line (a bunch gets off at 116th, but lots more are waiting to get on from 242nd thru 96th).
Mr t__:^)
Can you imagine the following -
DETROIT - GM announced today that it would quit making Buicks.
"We have to many customers," spokesman Joe Driver said. "Our factories are too busy. We had to do something."
***
Not bloody likely, is it?
I have no idea if this is really being considered, but the idea of cutting a line because it is doing its job too well is obscene. Why not improve signalling, etc., to improve capacity.
I was wondering if the museum buses that the TA has were they fully restored before being put into museum status, or did the TA just designate a delivered bus as a potential museum piece?
Sounds like something must have been taken out of context. There are still plenty of people on the #1 train in the Bronx -- certainly as many as on most other lines at the outer-borough end of their run (except perhaps the 7 and the E/F).
Perhaps a plan for rebuilding the station was misinterpreted? The entire structure at 242 shakes (a bit too much for comfort) as trains enter and leave the station.
Another thought, if the line were to end at 215 or before, Metro-North would lose its connection at Marble Hill (which has come in very handy for many Westchesterites when there were troubles further down the line).
The Regional Plan Association did have a proposal in the 1980s to replace the Broadway el by extending the A train north under the Harlem River and along the Putnam Division right-of-way. Then the 1 train north of 207th Street would have been rerouted across the Harlem River (I suppose on a new bridge) and under Fordham Road. As far as I know this plan never got any attention from the MTA; the RPA has put out a lot of plans over the years that are simply ignored.
A better idea would be to leave the 1 train as it is and extend the A under Fordham Road and 188th Street to about Webster Avenue.
Probably even better would be to extend it from 207th alog Fodham and Pelham pkwy to at least the 5 train, if not the six. All of the Bronx lines are north-south lines and to get from one end to the other by pub trans i difficult.It would definitey get serice due to the lnkage of PP area, Fordham, and INwood for shopping and otherwise.
Going to Pelham Bay Park would be ideal, but at the glacial pace the MTA is expanding, I wouldn't expect any of this to be done soon. There is one Bronx project that is on the MTA radar screens, however. If they do the 63rd Street to 125th Street segment of the Second Avenue subway, they might extend it to 149th Street at the Metro-North tracks. This would give rail commuters another place to transfer to the subway, but it would also allow a transfer to the east end of the 149th Street-Grand Concourse station.
I heard they were going to link the proposed section of the Second Ave. subway to the IRT at 125th. If so, this would make a river crossing inefficient and possibly quite difficult - it would parallel the IRT too closely.
Since the plan is to run the 2nd Avenue over to 125th St on the Lex, I think the line should continue through the tunnel and up the Pelham Line. A second Loop should be built for the Lex local, which would run only in Manhattan, reducing the crowding that way. It would be a faster ride for Bronxites then the crawl down the #6.
Actually, the MTA (according to their Manhattan East Side Alternatives brochure) might consider converting the Pelham line to B division standards so that it could handle Second Avenue trains. (One of the ideas back in 1968-69 was to convert part of the line for this purpose.) They haven't actually done any studies to figure out if this is feasible (taking into account tunnel widths, curves, etc.)
As for the other posting about a new Harlem River tunnel: the new station at 125th Street and Lexington Avenue is supposed to be parallel to and slightly below the existing station. I'm not a civil engineer, but it would seem feasible to continue the line under the river even if it was close to the existing tunnel. (How close are the three tubes of the Lincoln Tunnel to each other?) It seems that it would be a good idea to have this additional capacity to handle future growth.
It seems that savy New Yorkers have found ways to stretch their metrocards even further. Here's how it works: Employers offer "company" unlimited metrocards to employees for "business purposes". These cards are given in place of raises or bonuses. Employees are happy to get a free metrocard, which they would have had to buy on their own,(and which they can use whenever they want), while the employer can reduce taxable payroll as well as write off the cards as a business expense, a la Petty Cash. The employee need only take one "business ride" per month to make the whole thing legit. In fact, it seems, that even if the employee doesn't use the card at all, for "business" rides, companies should still be able to claim a tax deduction for empowering their employees with the potential of using it. Kind of like that telephone in the kitchenette that noone ever uses or office supplies that sit in the closet.
I dought that it's a "unlimited" MC, because the first time you use it the 30 day clock starts. I suspect it's a "value" "Transit Chek" that has a specific amount of value (rides) on it, but doesn't expire for a year or so.
===============================================================
I have discoverd a NEW type of MetroCard out there, it's a pay after the fact card & is in the hands of a "test" group of Seniors & Disabled customers. Initially it started as a "Mail-N-Ride" option, but now some other folks in NYC have it. We've seen some clergy using it.
I understand that the "suits" are going to offer it more widely to the public (Sr/Disabled) next year sometime, but you'll have to charge the card with money first, like the "E-Z-Pass". Why ... it seems somebody up there is sympathetic to hardship/difficulty that some in the above group have in getting to a subway station to add value to their MCs.
A TA that cares about it's customers ... ohhhh could it be true ?
Disclaimer: The above are rumors & not policy, plus I'm just speaking for myself & not the TA or DOT.
Mr t__:^)
The November MDBF numbers have been finalized with a few suprises.
Jamaica Shop set its' all-time high MDBF at 118,194 miles (pat on the back)....
The E line had the highest Line MDBF at around 250,000 miles (pat on the back again)
The F line had the second highest line MDBF at around 208,000 miles (pat on the back still again).
The fleet MDBF reached 102,978 miles (a record for sure)
Concourse Shop in the south and Jerome in the north were the division leaders at 140,000 and 150,000 miles respectively.
[The November MDBF numbers have been finalized with a few suprises.
Jamaica Shop set its' all-time high MDBF at 118,194 miles (pat on the back)....
The E line had the highest Line MDBF at around 250,000 miles (pat on the back again)
The F line had the second highest line MDBF at around 208,000 miles (pat on the back still again).
The fleet MDBF reached 102,978 miles (a record for sure)]
Out of curiosity, what lines/yards were the cellar-dwellers?
Ill bet Pitkin Yard won the "Basement Bertha" award again. Those numbers sound as fabricated as the cleanliness and on time performance stats. Did you know if a train is more than 5 minute late T.A. is considering it on time? If there is a G.O. in effect usually it adds additional time. The T.A. shell game continues.
Give the guy a break ... the numbers are obvious better then they've been, which means that the staff is working toward making the cars last longer on the road with out a problem ... that's a good thing.
All RxR play the same game with "on-time" ... BTW bus companies due it too, it's SOP.
In my 11 years riding the LIRR I observered that the trains were "on-time", were clean & the A/C worked ... most of the time (with 1/2 between trains it's obvious when it's late or leaves early). On the 1/9 I got to know what scheduled time was on the downtown train just after 5 PM ... it was there within a minute or two most of the time.
Shit happens, but by & large I think they do a pritty fair job.
Dispite our best effort, shit happens at my depot too. The point is we try vs. not giving a dam whether or not we makes schedule or what the equip. looks like or if it will make it to the end of the run.
P.S. I didn't count to ten here, so excuse the rambling ....
Mr t__:^)
I don't know why the give monthly figures, since a short term glitch or just luck can bias them so much. Perhaps they should issue a three or six month moving average, or something. Its kind of like the economic data for one month. You need a few months to know for sure if something is going on.
Every system of transportation, probably all over the world, has a late pad in which a run is considered on time. (Otherwise, nothing would ever be on time if the timer has a watch with enough precision - unless it was early, which is usually just as bad!)
The question is whether the error time is reasonable. Given the length of most routes in NYC, the number of stops, and the number of passengers, I think a five minute pad is very reasonable on every line except maybe the shuttles.
Where did you get these numbers from, Steve?
If those numbers are true, then hopefully the R-32s will soldier on well into the next millenium. Ditto for the slant R-40s...
My posting of the MDBF numbers for November have provoked some interesting questions. I'll try to respond to as many of them as I can remember.
First to "Damage" - Yes, Pitkin was at or near the bottom but that's because they have several logistical problems to deal with. Despite that, their MDBF would be envied by many other systems. By the way, Pelham had the lowest Northern MDBF. You are correct that stats can be skewed but as long as they are skewed in the same way across the board, they remain statistically valid. There is no evil conspiracy to inflate the MDBF. The system is very unfair to the Division of Car Equipment.
To Michael - I got the MDBF numbers from the same official source that I got them from last month. Trust me, they are real.
To Larry - Most shops use the 12 month moving MDBF trends to accurately portray their progress. One month numbers can easily get skewed by factors not related to actual performance. However, the 12 month moving MDBF is made up of 12 individual monthly reports like this one.
Peter - I trust I answered you
Thurston and Steve B - ^5
My posting of the MDBF numbers for November have provoked some interesting questions. I'll try to respond to as many of them as I can remember.
First to "Damage" - Yes, Pitkin was at or near the bottom but that's because they have several logistical problems to deal with. Despite that, their MDBF would be envied by many other systems. By the way, Pelham had the lowest Northern MDBF. You are correct that stats can be skewed but as long as they are skewed in the same way across the board, they remain statistically valid. There is no evil conspiracy to inflate the MDBF. The system, as designed, is very unfair to the Division of Car Equipment when apportioning delay charges.
To Michael - I got the MDBF numbers from the same official source that I got them from last month. Trust me, they are real. I review them virtually every morning.
To Larry - Most shops use the 12 month moving MDBF trends to accurately portray their progress. One month numbers can easily get skewed by factors not related to actual performance. However, the 12 month moving MDBF is made up of 12 individual monthly reports like this one.
Peter - I trust I answered you
Thurston and Steve B - ^5
How are the Slant R40's and the R32s making out in the MDBF sweepstakes? Jamaica's full of R32s; looks like they're doing well.
Wayne /mrSlantR40/
East NY slants & Ms 240,000 Miles MDBF
Coney Islans Slants 146,000 Miles MDBF
R32 Phase I Jamaica 335,000 Miles MDBF
R32 Phase I Pitkin 70,000 Miles MDBF
R32 Phase II Jamaica 159,000 Miles MDBF
R32 Phase II Coney Island 121,000 Miles MDBF
The Daily News reported a proposal for a major public/private park on Randalls Island. Pretty much the only way to get to Randall's Island is to drive over the Triborough, with a long wait much of time. Any suggestions?
How about a (real) trolley across 125th St, crossing all the subways, and over the Manhattan wing of the Triboro. I know I have criticized trolleys before here, but I believe 125th carries less traffic and is better able than 125th to lose a couple of lanes, and that the Manhattan span of the Triborough is less congested than the Bronx to Queens span, allowing it to lose a couple of lanes as well. True? At the very least, a bus route could be run across that same corridor.
There's already a bus that runs to Randall's Island. It's the M-35 unless that was changed.
How about a simple street bridge from 132nd St. and St. Anns Ave. in the Bronx? The waterway separating Randall's Island from the Bronx is so narrow one can almost (not quite) walk across it.
The current park on the island was developped by Robert Moses in conjunction with the building of the Triboro Bridge. The Triboro toll system is based on the assumption that the Triboro is the only vehicular access to the island. One pays a toll entering the island, none leaving it.
I would like to see things rearranged so that you paid a toll for use of the Queens to Ward's Island suspension bridge only, and no tolls for the bridges between Randall's Island and Manhattan or the Bronx.
For those of you who may not know, at the present moment Randall's Island is a park. Yes, the entire island is classified as a park!
Re: 125th Street traffic vs. trolleys ...
One summer my son & I drove along 125th on our way to the West side, there a lot of traffic there, i.e. we would go South or North to try and avoid the 125th problem.
Me t__:^)
As part of a talk that I am giving for a family friend whose mother was a "Miss Subway", I am looking for any historical information, preferably on-line, that I can use to discuss the history of the promotion.
Any responses are much appreciated
Laura,
This question has come up a couple of times before and with pretty slim results. Your friend's mother, having been a Miss Subways, probably knows more about it than any source on the net, at least that I've found.
Maybe she'd like to write a little essay about her experience as a Miss Subways for us! :-)
-Dave
You might try to find Ellen, the owners of "Ellen's", a restaurant near City Hall. She is also a former Miss Subways, and the restaurant is decorated with Miss Subways memorabilia. You walk down Chambers and see the old ads with the various Miss Subways in them.
At train stations, there are signs that say MU 8 or MU 10 etc. I think that is for the train to stop at. But what does MU stand for? Also in Penn Station I saw a sign on the tracks that said. MU 12, then under that L 2-3. What does the L mean?
My guess is it means "line", or better put, which tunnel the train can go out of. You';ll notice signs hanging by the tunnel entrances labeled "Line 1" through 4 in LIC...
MU stands for "Multiple Unit", ie electric train.
The used to say "M-1" years ago to denote that only the M-1s should use it as a stop point. I'm not sure how they did it with the MP-54/70/72/73/75 etc...
The MP-class LIRR cars - does anyone have a list of what they were; i.e. what's the difference between MP-54 and MP-75.
Were the MP-75 the last electrics before the M-1s? (i.e. the 2500/2600 series cars that saw their last days on the West Hempstead line?)
Which types were the old grey ones with the portholes at the ends?
I needs some blanks filled in here...
Wayne
I bnelieve the MP designations are in PRR style translatable as Motorized Passenger 54 feet between colision posts--nearly identical cars ran on PRR in commuter service especially in the Philly suburban service and the north Jersey precursors to NJT
"Nearly"
The difference is that the PRR ones were 11kv traction. Septa rasn them until at least 1982, possibly later.
The LIRR got theirs first, too.... also, I've never seen a round roof PRR one...
The MPs on the LIRR were as follows:
MP-41 (1905 or so) The first. Much like IRT cars of the time, narrower, shorter than later stuff. Retired late 50's, last seen on the Mitchell field run I think. No known left in existance.
MP-54 (1909 - 1940 or so) The classic. Came in traditional and round roof types. Had the classic round windows at the ends. I believe those windows can open on some cars too. BM baggage/Mail variants were made, and at least 2 incomplete ones exist. Used a vertical andle controller like current NJT MUs have. At least 2 complete ones exist, one at Warehouse Pt CT (functional but not run recently!) And the other up in Maine. Gimmie a status Todd! Had no speedos at first, but some were fitted with Speed Control. Many variants. Gone after 1972
MP-70 (1930? - ?) Stretched MP-54, to 70 feet. Might have lasted slightly longer than the 54s as diesel cars. Same windows as 54s
MP-72 (1950's - 60's ?) The ZIP!!!! Much like the ACMU, but with auto doors. Actually, I believe they are very closely related to each other. Still in service as diesel cars. Name comes from their high acceleration (zip!). Had single square window in the front, and I think a traditional type controller.
MP-73 (1930's) The BiLevels. Self Propelled doubler deckers, another LIRR "first" Gone in the late 60's, they were cramped, and difficult to clean, collect tickets in. They also packed people in.
MP-75 (1960's) The last LIRR MP-types. These retained the round windows of earlier MPs, but the windows were bigger. Also had AC, and were the largest of the MPs. Still used as diesel cars, look for the welded over headlight cutout at the car ends, and door weather stripping... A few were used on the SIRT (I have a shot as my desktop pic on my Mac). Converted to Diesels in the 70's. catch them while they last. No idea what kinda controller they had.
M-1 (1969 - 76 or so) The origional "Metropolitan" we've all come to love and hate. Features high top speed (at least 110), and semi auto operation (check out the ATC notch on the controller, past P4). Also features a single handle controller, that is GE's less clunky cineston knockoff (Cinston is wabco I think) Best feature is the "railfan" window on the front door. Worst feature is the engineer's door always being open ;)
M-1a (170's?) Metro-North's variant, with openable windows.
M-3 (1987) Gotten for the Ronkonkama electrification, heavier than the M-1, and a few extra HP to boot.
C-1(?) (1994 or so) The double decker test set
C-3(?) (1998-) The new double deckers, 5000 series is cab, 4000 is trailler. Get used to them, they'll be around a long time (hopefully)
M-7 (????) Rumored replacments for the M-1. Expect AC inverter traction, pray for bigger windows, openable windows, and better AC, and no full width cab!
Phil,
Seashore's MP-54 is sitting patiently on a yard track, awaiting volunteer time and money. First, of course, we need a project manager who has the time to give (preparing a restoration plan, leading the fundraising, etc...)
Dang...I'd LOVE to get a lookie in person at it, or at least a shot of it. I'd say bug the LIRR for donations, but I'm sure they could care less. Hmm... I'd love to see it get restored, and possibly even run on the LIRR.
Anyway, what are the chances of getting up there this summer to look at it? I've seen the outside of the one at Warehouse PT, but they were too busy to guide me on a closer look :(
I do know they've run theirs, and that it was functional at least as late as the early 80's, and may still be. It has been fitted with a pole. I stupidly didn't get the number of it :|
Seashore's MP-54 (4137) is stored on yard trackage in a "public area," so visitors may see the outside. A volunteer or staff member can arrange for an inside look... hope to see you next summer!
Well, *if* I get my new Wide Glide and a pair of saddle bags, I'll try to hit up there (with a camera of some sort, though my dad won't let me borrow his Nikon :( Actually, I'm also thinking of Altoona PA in search of the ellusive GG-1 with a publicly viewable cab and insides (supposedly some museum there lets you into one) Ahh. And general milling around the Northeast, though ihn august if anything, since It'll give me time to get the new bike worn in. Well, that is if I get one :|
The cars were an adaption of a standard PRR design of coach (P-54) for electric service. Interesting sidelights on the MP-54 series.
Early cars had steamcoach roofs, weak collision posts and were preferred in the middle of trains in latter years. (MP-54)
Next group were beefed up (MP-54A)
Next two groups were arch roof (MP-54B, MP-54C)
Last group went back to steamcoach roof (MP-54A1)
There were also Trailers (all arch roof)(T-54), Baggage Motors (all steamcoach roof) (MB-54) and Combines (all steamcoach roof) (MPB-54)
Numerous rebuildings created control trailers, blind motors, and other variants.
A very interesting series of cars. There is a good article in a defunct publication called "Electric Lines". Very informative if you can find a copy
Cars at Seashore and Connecticut are both MP-54A1 (Built 1931).
Thanks for the information - now here's one for you:
What were the unit numbers for the MP54 plus the MP70, 72, 73 and 75?
What kind were the 1300 series and later the 7400 series?
Thanks
Wayne
Without a roster in front of me I won't try to quote specifics, but the numbering system was haphazard, and there were some renumberings as cars changed status.
Seashore's MP-54A1 was renumbered from 1137 to 4137 as an example.
Are there any classifications between the letter and number trains?
(How come not all the letters of the alphabet are used, and why are they replaced by numbers?)
In general, the letters represent BMT/IND lines while numbers represent IRT lines (except the Times Square/Grand Central Shuttle which is designated with the letter 'S'). In the early days, the BMT also used numbers but I can't give you a date as to when they switched to letters. The IND always used letters, single letters signifying expresses while double letters signified locals. Since the IND used letters from the beginning of the alphabet, when the BMT switched to letters, they took letters from the middle and other end. Those deliniations became less obvious once the Chrystie St. cut was opened and lines were re-aligned in the late 60s. I hope that helps.
Letter markings began to be used on the BMT in 1960-61 with the arrival of the R-27s, and then only on the Southern Division at first. All BMT number markings were officially dropped in November 1967 when the Chrystie St. connection opened. By that time, only the Eastern Division still used number markings on those routes served by R-16s.
The BMT used a number classification system probably starting in 1925 with the delivery of the D-Types.The only other BMT equiptment to carry route numbers were the Green Hornet,Zephyr,and Multis. The vast majority of BMT equiptment;Standards,Q-Types,C-Types,BUs did not carry route numbers,only route names.The BMT did use route numbers on their subway maps.The first equiptment purchased by the City after Unification;R-10,R-11,R-16,also carried BMT route numbers.Starting with the delivery of the R-27's in 1960 route letters started to be used beginning with Route J thru Route TT. The IND used route letters from the beginning .Route A thru HH were used though not all operated at the same time.The IRT used route numbers starting in 1948 with the delivery of the R-12's.IRT route numbers were not assigned to IRT Els or shuttles. However starting in 1967 the letters SS were used for the shuttles and Rt 8 was assigned to the 3 Avenue El in the Bronx.
An interesting sidelight on the route letters used by the BMT Brighton, 4th Av, and Myrtle Lines. For Brighton, these were Q (Broadway-Brighton Express, QB Broadway-Brighton Local via Bridge and QT Broadway-Brighton Local via Tunnel. 4th Av had an RR for the usual local service, and an RJ for service terminating on the Broad Street line. The Eastern Division lines stayed with numbers until Chrystie St. but had Letter designations. JJ for Jamaica service, LL for 14th St., and M for Myrtle Chambers (express???). Myrtle El service was MJ (where the J came from on that one is a mystery), but in each case the second letter specified something totally different from what it meant otherwise B-Bridge, T-Tunnel, J-Just about anything :)
Chrystie St. created the QJ which combined Brighton and Jamaica Service oops-now the J meant what it did as a single or double letter.
And of course the NX (Double letters meant local but the normal N was an express and since this ran express over the normal routing of the local part of the N, creating an N which didn't stop on the N line. thus the X. Since the train started on the Brighton Line, maybe a QN might have been better.) In any event it made one or two less stops than a Brighton Express and served the same area of Midtown Manhattan via a longer route. With no through service to the Bronx why bother to ride it? Nobody did! (It probably had the fewe=st stops of any non shuttle line in the city...
Brighton Beach
West 8th
Stillwell
59th
36th
Pacific
Dekalb???
Canal
14th
34th
42nd
57th
)
You forgot that the Bway-Bklyn was KK.
MJ meant Myrtle-Jay St.
The NX didn't stop at DeKalb Ave. The X denoted the nonstop run on the Sea Beach line.
The RJ was the 4th Ave.-Jamaica rush hour service. It ran all the way to 168th St. One curious thing: the RJ was a peak direction-only service, but it wasn't clear as to which direction. The 1967 TA map says, "AM Northbound, PM southbound". This leads to the conclusion that it ran from 95th St. in the morning and to 95th St. in the afternoon. However, since JJ trains did not operate between Crescent and 168th Sts. during PM rush hours, that would have left the QJ all by itself on the Jamaica-bound trip. There was another footnote: "During PM rush hours, from 6:20 PM to 6:55 PM, RJ trains operate as expresses along Broadway-Brooklyn." That would seem to indicate that they ran to Jamaica during afternoons.
Remember that any trip to Brooklyn is considered southbound and you might have the explanation to this mystery. Then there is the possibility that trains ran local outbound from Manhattan, and ran back non-stop to make another run in. Add to that the fact that neither line has a yard at the terminal and you get the impression that it was a two-way operation. In any event, the running time to Jamaica is so long that a trip could originate at 4PM at 36th St (time consuming pull in w/ reverse move), run to 95th, back to Jamaica, and pull in at East New York and rush hour would be over. And since normal practice is to pull back to the originating yard, you end up with a pull-in from East NY to 95th - taking even longer. Scheduling a subway system as extensive and interconnected as New York's is no small task!
I did some more thinking after my previous post and have concluded that the RJ must have run from Jamaica in the morning, and to Jamaica in the afternoon. The QJ ran express along Broadway in the peak direction during rush hours, so if RJ trains also ran express during PM rush hours along Broadway, they had to have been Jamaica-bound. There is a photo in Subway Cars of New York of a train of R-27s at Coney Island Shops signed as RJ/111th St. Maybe that's as far as some of those trains went along Jamaica Ave. Is it possible that they could have assumed a different identity while operating in the non-peak direction, or did they deadhead?
Here's another thought: could it be that the QJ and RJ were descendents of the Bankers Specials? There is some similarity; the major difference was that they could no longer deadhead over the Manhattan Bridge from the Nassau Loop because that connection was now severed. Plus they both ran local in Brooklyn.
Has any Subtalker ever ridden on an RJ during its brief stint?
It was common practice for a train to change identities running inbound after an express run outbound. As I stated previously though, there is a good chance that these runs were yard moves anyway.
I remember one morning many years ago I took the original M bankers special Brighton Exp. When we got to Broad St. (via the "H" or southern tracks of the Manhattan bridge), the MOTORMAN changed to head sign to :TT Bay Parkway. So I rode from Brighton to Bay Parkway on the same train without changing ends. That is how the Nassau loop operated to those who wondered how it worked.
That must have been the R special from 95th St. Thatt's the only one that went over the bridge peak direction. The Brighton went through the tunnel, and deadheaded over the bridge.
The 4th Av specials before had always gone back as Culver locals until that line was reduced to a shuttle.
In 1967 I rode a northbound TT West End Local with R-27's from 9AV in the late afternoon going towards Chambers St via Tunnel.After we left Court St the motorman changed the front rout sign From TT West End to M Nassau St. The conductor walked thru the six car train and changed the side route signs to S Special. We made all stops to Chhambers then continued onto the Manhattan Bridge south side (H) tracks to Dekalb Av then made all lcl stops to 95 St.I believe that during the morning rush both Brighton and Fourth Av Nassau St service used M-nassau St Exp signs.During the evening rush the Fourth Av trains used S Specials signs while the Brighton used M-nassau St Exp.Of course if Standard were used (occassionally they were)then the sign readings would have been different. Please not this is prior to Chrystie ST.
According to Ed Sachs, the BMT standards which had large roller curtains had a sign which read, on one curtain,
via Tunnel thru (1/4 size)
Nassau Loop (1/2 size)
then via Bridge to Brooklyn (1/4 size)
I have a route curtain from a standard, courtesy of Mr. Rollsign himself (Charles Fiori), which I'll have to check again to see it it has that marking. It has every possible BMT express and local route, similar to the original route signs on the R-1/9s. Not all were used, such as 4th Ave. Exp., and Sea Beach Local. I'm sure the Triplex units included all possible combinations too. Was that so?
Speaking of the TT, most maps listed it as a "via tunnel" route. I can't remember if my 1948 Hagstrom's BMT map, which referred to it as "West End Short Line", said "via tunnel" or "via Nassau Loop". "Via Nassau Loop" would imply via tunnel, then via bridge, or vice versa. My mid-60s Hagstrom's map has "via tunnel" for the TT.
Steve here's an interesting sidelight to the TT story.Back in August 1965 there occured the Great BMT Flood at Lawrence St which effectively cut of all BMT service between Manhattan and Brooklyn. This happened on a Sunday and thru service over the bridge was not restored until Monday's PM rush. The tunnel was out until Wednesday morning. The way the TT works into this story is that on Tuesday after the evening rush RR trains were run between Manhattan and Brooklyn via Bridge.In order to provide service to lower Broadway Line a TT West End Local ran between Astoria and Whitehall St until Wed morning when the tunnel was reopenned. I rode this service and we had R-32's on the train.Regards,Redbird
What caused the flood? It must have been a water main break or something. As I recall, the East Coast had suffered a severe drought, to the point where water pressure was quite a bit lower at faucets and the like. My father remembers having to ask for water at restaurants during our vacation that summer.
The flood was caused by a watermain break on Willoughby St near Lawrence St early in the morning of August 22,1965.Your father is quite correct that there was a servere drought that summer and the watermain break aggravated an already serious situation.
I personally remember seeing low water flow out of faucets when we stayed with my cousins in Brooklyn in July. I can also remember visiting their parents on, I believe, 72nd just off New Utrecht, and being mesmerized by West End trains rumbling past all evening long.
Steve. Here's some info on the 6 Av Watermain Break of 12/7/62.The following special services were run from 12/7/62 to 12/24/62.
Rt C 8 Avenue Exp ran between Bedford Park Blvd. and 34 St-6 Av during rush hours. Exp between 145 St and 59 St in both directions. Exp on Concourse between Tremont Av and 145 St am rush stbd,pm rush ntbd.
CC discontinued during the emergency.
D 6 Avenue Exp ran between 205 St and Church Av or Coney Island during non-rush hours.Exp between 145 St and 59 St,via 8 Avenue between 59 St and West 4 St.
DD 6 Avenue Lcl ran between 205 St and Church Av or Coney Island during rush hours making all local stops.
The markers for the C were W-W. The markers for both the D and DD were Y-W to Chuch Av and G-Y to Coney Island.
Note that the so-called 8 Av Exp ran on 6 Av and the so-called 6 Av Lcl and Exp ran on 8 Av.
Regards,redbird.
I printed that poster from the other website. It also mentions that the AA ran only during rush hours and the BB during non-rush hours - essentially the two services flip-flopped operating times. In addition, the F terminated at 34th St. instead of Broadway-Lafayette.
I don't feel the TA was concerned about whether a train marked as an 8th Ave. service was operating via 6th Ave. and vice versa. They were simply utilizing a couple of train markings which happened to be available. Technically speaking, it can be said that there was a DD service at one time, albeit in an emergency situation. That would leave the FF as the only available IND marking which was never used.
Steve that's correct.I believe that the FF was the only one of the original IND Routes that was never used.
Maybe the DD should be included in the IND route listing with a footnote that it was used as a temporary marking due to a water main break, but was never a regular route marking.
Yes indeed.Some mention could even be made of the first EE Queens-8 Av Lcl that ran for a short time way back in 1936 or 37.
I didn't know there was an EE back then. When the Queens line first opened as far as Roosevelt Ave., the E made all local stops. Maybe it was listed as an E, but marked EE. Perhaps someone could shed some light on this.
Steve. When the Queens Line did open as far as Roosevelt Av on 8/19/33 and again when extended to Continental on 12/31/36 The E provided the service and made all local stops.When the line was extended to 169 St on 4/24/37 the E ran between 169 St and Church during rush hours and ran exp between Cont and QP.The EE ran the same route during non-rush making all local stops.This only lasted a short time until 7/1/37 when the Crosstown Line was completely opened and the E now ran exp at all times while the GG provided local service.
Regards,Redbird.
What were the EE's terminals? Continental Ave. and Hudson Terminal, perhaps? And do any maps exist which mention this route? You've piqued my curiosity.
Mark. From 4/24/37 to 6/30/37 both the E and EE ran between 169 St and Church AV, the E during rush hours and the EE during non-rush.As this was a very short period of time and the IND was openning numerous extensions at the same time I don't know if the EE got it's name onto a subway map. Perhaps someone out there has an IND map of the period.
Regards,Redbird.
The (EE) service was indeed on a map. My list of subway maps shows that it was discontinued in 1976, replaced by the .
Todd. Thank you . The EE that we are looking for was the first EE Queens-8 Av Local which only ran for a short time back in 1937.The more familiar EE was of course the EE Queens-Broadway Local which ran from 1967 to 1976. I really don't know if the old IND published any pocket maps though I assume they must have.
Regards,Redbird,
I remember that the EE only ran Monday thru Friday from about 7:00AM to 8:00PM. Other times, to get to Lexington and 59th you had to switch to the Flushing Line at Roosevelt, and then again at Queensboro Plaza which was most annoying. If I recall, that train was originally the RR. During the EE run, the RR went to Astoria.
After the demise of the EE, they gave us the N until they swaped the N, running it to Astoria, and giving Queens BLVD back the truncated R.
Correct - and I remember seeing all kinds of trains on the EE (yes, the sign was bright orange): mostly R16s but R40Ms, R38s, and a large number of R6 (and high-number R4s) could be found there. I do believe I saw a Slant R40 once, it was marked "S" (don't think the R40 signs included "EE" or "GG" back then; just "E", "F" and "S"). There were R40M which had the "brake test" unit numbers, that began with "AS" and "CB" too. Rode on "CB22" Nov 4 1969 (Election day) from QP to 34th Street. Had a nice bumpy ride aboard a KK train on the way home - it was vintage R7 and R9 stuff. Saw the first R42 on same line - one of the cars was #4918 (he of the new nose) and mate #4919.
Wayne
Speaking of 4918...it is now back & running...finally. But...it was on the head end of an M train Mon. 12/14. It laid up that nite to Fresh Pond Yard. On the midnite, as it was being checked for AM service by midnite personel, it was found to have a dead motor & trainline wise, it would intermitantly be necessary to hit the side door bypass for the train to take power!
Sounds like he (#4918) has stage fright! Did they give him his meds and set him back on the road? (Dead motors are nothing to fool with.)
Maybe he had a case of R-16-itis.
Wayne
Is it true that the R-4s and R-6s which ran on the EE had the "8th Ave." subscript on the bulkhead route signs taped over? It would make sense, since they didn't actually run along 8th Ave. While I never rode an EE, the closest I ever came to seeing one was during the winter of 1967-68, when the trains were stored on the Broadway express tracks during weekends. Imagine my consternation when we got to Union Square after transferring from the Canarsie, and I looked down the express track to see a train marked EE just sitting there! Then an N pulled in on the local track and made all local stops to Times Square. I was crushed. At 23rd St., I glanced over to the train parked on the express track, and saw the "EE/8th Ave. Local" route sign of an R-4 or R-6.
Once I understood the concept of local vs express, thanks to the A train, I was hooked on express trains.
Some but not all. The lower numbered cars (700, 800, which were R4), often had the "8th Ave" under the "EE". I think that the "Whitehall Street" destination in the side sign rolls was also an addendum; the original IND side rolls didn't have that on them since it was a BMT station. Either that or they were given a new roll with more destinations on it somewhere along the way. I remember riding on one venerable old R6 of the "EE" back in 1968 as it groaned and creaked its way around the Cortlandt Street "S" curve at 5 MPH. You could hear the air discharging (chhhhhhffff) as it negotiated the serpentine. They didn't screech much, either; mostly made loud rattling, rumbling and groaning sounds, unlike the vocal R27s and R30s which shrieked and screamed as they wound around the "S".
Wayne
As I recall, the TA modified the side signs on the 1100's, 1200's & 1300's for EE Whitehall St. service. Invariably, a different car would wind up there.
And the end signs had 8th Ave. either blocked out or replaced with a new EE.
I believe that many of the old IND cars (R-1 through R-9 series) did acutally have BMT routes and destinations on their roll signs prior to 1967. I don't know if they were there originally or added later.
The R-1s did do some test runs (including, I believe, carrying passengers) on the Sea Beach Express line (now the N line, then the No. 4) prior to the opening of the IND in 1932. Also, from about 1949-1954, several sets of IND cars (R-1s, I believe), were assigned to the 4th Ave. Local (now R, then No. 2) line. In fact, throughout the 1950s, a train of IND cars would show up now and again on that line.
-- Ed Sachs
Over the years, the R-1/9s had various signs spliced into their roller curtains as new lines and extensions opened, and other signs were removed. Examples: Jay St.-Boro Hall, Fulton-Rockaway Ave., Jamaica-169th St., and Queens/Kew Gardens. I also remember seeing Chambers St. appearing on some R-1/9s in place of Hudson Terminal; all of my IND curtains have Hudson Terminal. R-9 #1689 at Shoreline has most of these signs on its curtains; it also has E/8th Ave.-Houston signs.
I would imagine that those IND cars which spent time on the BMT may have been fitted with BMT roller curtains. This was the case with the R-1s which ran on the Sea Beach in 1931. When the R-7s and R-9s were transferred to the Eastern Division, they received brand new roller curtains, some of which were spliced onto older, existing curtains. The IND route curtain in my sign box has such a newer curtain spliced next to the A sign. I also have an Eastern Division destination curtain which was spliced to an older curtain which may have been used on those R-1s operating on the BMT. It has Astoria, Queens Plaza, 57th St.-Manhatt'n, Times Square, City Hall, and Chambers St.
My guess is that Whitehall St. was added to those R-1/9s which were assigned to the EE. Since they also ran on the QB (and the B), it stands to reason that 57th St. would have also been added.
Following up on Steve B's comments on sign curtains, the R-1s assigned to the Fourth Avenue in the late 1940s had BMT indicators. There was "2" over "Fourth Avenue" on the signs on the end of the cars but no numbers used on the sides. I don't think they carried 'Via Bridge' or 'Via Tunnel' signs on the side curtains, either--just the two terminals and the route on the larger lower sign--that read 'Fourth Avenue Local'--can't remember if there were abbreviations. I never had the opportunity (or the nerve) to turn the cranks to see what else was on those signs. I was a bit too young and scared to do it (and too short to reach the bulkhead signs).
With regard to all of the discussion of sign curtains, is it possible that the in-house curtain shops kept records of what they printed? Or are there copies in the records or archives of the car builders, since many came with signs already installed, or their successors?
It would be great if the Coney Island curtain unit could make some new signs for trains like the Triplexes. It's a shame to see them running without all their signs.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
I remember seeing the EE with the following signs.
Front bulkhead read: "EE" (no subscript) Forrest Hills and "EE" (no subscript) Whitehall Street.
But I can't remember the side reading. What were they??
The side route sign for the EE service of the late 60s (on R-1/9s) read:
EE| via Broadway
I posted scans of those R-1 side route signs yesterday. Here is the URL: http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/rollsigns/r1sideroute.html
Last week I posted the End route signs for the BMT numbers (R-11), IND A-HH and IRT 1-9 from the R-12's. There is a link to the sign menu from the above URL.
I enjoyed looking at Joe's scan of the R-1/9 side route roller.
I find it interesting that they added a
B|via 6th Ave.
indication, as I never saw it being used. They used the
B|6th Ave. Express
indicaton for the B (6th Ave-West End service).
What was more interesting was what they used on the R-32s. The roll signs on the R-32s were modified, with a single letter "B" (black letter on white) pasted over the "BB" on the bulkhead and side signs. Thus, while the R-1/9s read "6th Ave. Exp.", the R-32s on the same route read:
B|6th Ave. Local
with the "B" black on white and the rest of the sign white on black.
Also of note - in the months after Christie St. opened before the extension to 57th St-6th Ave opened in 1968, the midday "B" trains terminated at West 4th St. None of the cars used on the "B" had a "West 4th St." terminal indicator on their roll signs, they usually were just blank for the north terminal.
The TA wasn't ready for the Chrystie St. opening in regard to signs. For example, R27/30's ran on the QJ & RJ, yet they didn't get signs until well after the opening.
My IND side route curtain has the "B/via 6th Ave." sign.
I remember seeing exactly one train of R-1/9s signed up as a B, and it was deadheading up 6th Ave. Its side route signs were set at the original "B/6th Ave. Express" designation, and its motors moaned along at about an F# below middle C (about the same as a prewar A train skipping 23rd St. on an uptown run).
I vividly remember the B pasted over the BB on the R-32 roller curtains. In fact, if you observe the slow-moving B train during the opening titles of Welcome Back, Kotter, you can see the pasted-over B on the side route signs.
Chances are that those B trains displaying blank northern terminal signs while terminating at W. 4th St. were re-signed to 168th St.-Wash. Hts. during rush hours. Interestingly, the R-32s had the IND terminal information reversed on their roller curtains, compared to the R-1/9s. For example, the D's northern terminal on the R-1/9s appeared as "Concourse-205th St." On the R-32s, it was "205th St.-Concourse." (Actually, you could make the bulkhead destination sign on an R-1/9 read "205th St. Concourse" if you wanted to, since the "Concourse-Bedford Park" sign was right next to the 205th St. sign.)
My 1968 subway map shows the EE terminating at Whitehall Street. While the R train continued unto 95 Street/Ft. Hamilton. Where were the EE trains kept during their layover since the station is three track and two platforms?
Did the EE use the side terminal reading: 71Sst St. Continental Ave.?
My 1968 subway map shows the EE terminating at Whitehall Street. While the R train continued unto 95 Street/Ft. Hamilton. Where were the EE trains kept during their layover since the station is three track and two platforms?
Did the EE use the side terminal reading: 71st St. Continental Ave.?
Yes, the EE operated between 71st-Continental Ave. and Whitehall St. Most likely, they would layup at Jamaica Yard, since the yard leads are directly east of Continental Ave.
Make that Kew Gardens Yard.
I remember seeing a few (of the R-16 persuasion) asleep at the center tracks in Canal Street-Chinatown station. Perhaps they also used the lower level at City Hall. This was in 1973 and 1974.
Wayne
EE trains were also laid up on the Broadway express tracks on winter weekends during the late 60s.
Wayne:I'm back.AOL has finally solved there modem problems.I recall that the EE Broadway Lcl ran M-F 6a-8p between Forest Hills and Whitehall St. This was supplemented by rush hour short turns between Forest Hills and Canal St and I believe these relayed on the lower level at City Hall. The lower level was also used for midday and I believe evening layups.
Regards,Redbird
The New York City Transit's Fact and Figures pamphlet for 1996 has two very interesting photos.
Page 14... interior view of Low V's metal signs. They read...
LEX. AVE. EXPRESS
WOODLAWN ROAD-JEROME AVE.
UTICA AVE. BKLYN.
Page 15... exterior close up (from the platform) of R-1/9 signs... They read...
JAMAICA-169th ST.
BKLYN-CHURCH AV.
E 8th AV-HOUSTON
EXPRESS
The door pocket window has asign that says "WORLD'S FAIR" the photo caption claims to be 1939-1940.
I think I've seen that photo of that particular E train. I'd like to find roller curtains with both the Jamaica-169th St. and E/8th Ave.-Houston Express signs still intact. And Jay St.-Boro Hall, for that matter.
All R-1/9 cars had the following on their roll signs:
A-8th Ave. Express
AA-8th Ave. Local
B-6th Ave. Express
BB-6th Ave Local
C-8th Ave. Express
CC-8th Ave. Local
D-6th Ave. Express
D-6th Ave.-Houston Express
DD-6th Ave Local
E-8th Ave. Express
EE-8th Ave. Local
F-6th Ave. Express
F-6th Ave.-Houston Express
FF-6th Ave Local
GG-B'klyn-Queens Local
HH-Fulton St. Local
S-Special
When the Chrystie St. changes went into effect in 1967, the EE replaced the RR (R-27/30's) on the B'way BMT/Queens IND line, bringing with it the R-1/9's. "8th Ave." was blackened out (probably with India ink), making the sign read "EE Local". Some even had revised roll signs reading "EE Broadway Local".
And also with it (by 1969) came those balky but beautiful R16s.
Plus a smattering of "brake-test"-numbered R40Ms.
Thanks for the rollsign info
Wayne
I have that sign box! Complete with a crank held by a offset bracket I made for it. I started reading your list of destinations and thought they sounded familiar! Bought it at the New haven Museum many years ago.
Chuck Greene
Ditto here. The crank handle for the route sign, which has all of those markings, is still intact. The conduit, junction boxes, and light sockets for the lower destination sign are still in place and are functional. I also picked it up at Shoreline in August of 1980.
Unfortunately, the bulkhead IND route curtains I have do not include 6th Ave.-Houston for the D or F.
I beg to differ. One of the two sign boxes in my collection does not have the "Houston Express" variants which is why I bought the second ine--all at Transit Museum store.
Actually, the original sevice via 60th St. tunnel to Continental Ave, which began around 1955, was the Brighton Local (Mon - Fri, 6 am to 7 pm, other times to 57th St.). BMT standards until late 1960 when the R-27s started to appear.
In Jan, 1961, the Brighton and 4th Ave. locals (QT and RR) switched Queens terminals, and the 4th Ave. local (RR) ran to Continental or 57th, and the Brigton (QT/QB) to Astoria all times. This lasted until Nov., 1967, when the Christie St. connection opened, at which time the EE service was instituted.
The RR did resume operating to Astoria when the Chrystie St. connection opened.
Speaking of the Brighton, it is true that the QB and QT did not operate at the same time, at least by 1965, isn't it? My mid-60s map had the Q and QT both operating Mon-Fri 6:00 AM to 7:00 PM (without saying anything about the Q running local in Brooklyn middays), and the QB running all by itself during weeknights and all day on weekends.
That's right. The Brighton local was either QB (when running via bridge) or QT (when running via tunnel). QB and QT never operated at the same time.
-- Ed Sachs
Steve That is correct. The QT ran approx M-f 6 am to 7 pm and the QB ran at all other times. The Q running local in Brookyn middays was not mentioned in subway service guides but it did run local.This is just a personal observation but it seems that at sometime in the 1950's the TA went on an anti-exp bias and did whatever they could to make subway rides longer.I know that locals serve more people at more stations but the further out you live means its that much longer to travel.
Regards,Redbird
There is a photo in Under the Sidewalks of New York of a Q train of then-new R-32s running local on the Brighton line. Curiously, there is another photo from around 1956 of a Brighton express of Triplex units marked 1/Astoria.
Steve. This adds a little more to my previous response. This was the era of the stealth service on the TA. You could look in vain on the pocket subway map for any mention of the Brighton-Nassau or 4 Avenue-Nassau Services.We were told that the was a #5 Thru-Exp but not what stops it made or didn't make.Ditto for the Jamaica am skip stop service.You had to be a railfan or a regular rider to know these things.The N (of course,)ran local in Brooklyn at nights and on Sundays but this wasn't mentioned either.The TA today does a much better job with getting out the info on when the services are running and what stops they are making.
Regards,Redbird
That's true. My Hagstrom's map does mention the A as running local in Brooklyn.
That is a brief period. That said, you're probably right - the EE may not have appeared on maps. However, since the R-1/9s had all possible express and local route signs, all they had to do was change the route signs and perhaps one marker light. Here's the $64,000 question: did the E run express in Queens only, as it does today, or did it also run express in Manhattan and live up to its billing as an "8th Ave. Express"?
I don't know about way back when, but at least in the late 60's-early 70's the E ran express on 8th Ave. (and Fulton Street in Brooklyn) during rush hours when it went to Euclid Avenue and Rockaway Park.
My 1964 WF Map shows "E" service as Express in Brooklyn.
My 1968 MultiColor map shows "E" service as Express in Brooklyn
with a few trains per rush originating at/terminating at Lefferts Blvd
My 1974 Map shows "E" service as Local in Brooklyn.
My 1976 Map shows "CC" service replacing "E" service.
Wayne
E service varied down through the years. The 1955 express service section on this website lists the E as running local in Brooklyn during rush hours back then. I get the impression the MTA started to streamline services during the mid 70s, with trains keeping the same terminals whenever possible. They must have figured that since the CC already operated during rush hours only (back then), it would make better sense to simplt extend it to Brooklyn, and have the E permanently terminate at WTC.
That's ridiculous. Are you sure it wasn't the QT, which covered that entire portion of the line? The TT didn't run on any part of it.
Eric. Remember I said that was during a water main break when regular service was not running. During the pm rush hour that night the following services ran over the Manhattan Bridge Brighton Local and Exp Q and QB,West End Exp T,and Sea Beach Exp N.During the day the RR had run from Forest Hills to Whitehall St but after the rush it was routed to Bkyln via the bridge. In order to cover the Whitehall St service a local was placed in operation between Astoria and Whitehall St and signed TT, since the RR was already running over the bridge as was the Brighton Local QB not QT. Remember this was an ad hoc operation that only ran for several hours until the following morning when the tunnel was re openned. I mention it because for a short time a least the TT made the big time and got a run on Broadway.
It's true that water main breaks can result in unusual routings and markings. There is a poster of service disruptions on the IND due to a 1962 water main break at 23rd St. and 6th Ave. in the joekorner website. During certain hours, there were special trains marked C and DD. That had to be the only time the DD marking was ever used on the IND. I wonder what marker light combination was used for it. I may set my signbox for those routes one of these days...
Getting back to your observation, I think you're right about the TT running up Broadway for the only time in its career. It certainly didn't run there normally. BTW, I checked my Hagstrom's 1948 BMT map last night, and it does say "Via Nassau Loop" for the West End Short Line service. In those days, its terminals were Chambers St. and 62nd St.
Prior to the DeKalb reconstruction, Brighton Specials ran over the Bridge in the morning, skipping DeKalb and Myrtle, and signs would be changed at Broad Street for a return to Brooklyn probably as a Culver Express. It was the only Brighton service to skip DeKalb on a regular basis.
The afternoon Brighton service started at Chambers and went south through the Tunnel.
In response to another question, the large sign curtains on BMT standards had two Nassau Loop destination signs. One was for counter-clockwise operation, used by Culver Expresses and Fourth Avenue Specials ("Via Bridge thru Nassau Loop via Tunnel to Bklyn") and the other for clockwise (West End Short Line locals)--"Via Tunnel thru Nassau Loop via Bridge to Bklyn"--and I think both used the as the spelling long before it became fashionable to do that.
I don't remember Brighton or Fourth Avenue Specials using the 'Loop' destination signs; in the morning I think they were both signed for "Broad Street," and in the afternoon with their Brooklyn destinations.
I also think that both just used "Express" as their route designations on the BMT standards, but could be suffering from memory loss on that issue.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
The RJ service was a little confusing,but what wasn't confusing about subway service after the Chrystie St Connection.Maybe this will help. The RJ ran from 11/27/67 to 7/1/68 Mon thru Fri rush hours in both directions.AM rush stbd 5 trains left 168 St to 95 St from 528am to 619am. The 619am train ran exp on Bway-Bklyn.AM Rush ntbd 5 trains left 95 St from 746am to 833am,three ran to 168 St,two to Eastern Pkwy.PM Rush stbd all 5 trains started at Eastern Pkwy and made all stops to 95 St.PM rush ntbd 6 trains left 95 St and ran to 168 St from 537pm to 625pm. The first 5 of these ran exp from Essex to Eastern Pkwy. Hope this helps.
Thanks for the info. Pity the BMT passenger of the 60s. First you had the implementation of letter markings, which was confusing enough. Then came the Chrystie St. connection with even more reroutings and dropping of all number markings and BMT titles. The slogan "When in doubt, ask a Transit employee" became meaningless, as TA personnel were just as confused as everyone else. Then on top of all that, the old reliable BMT rolling stock which two generations of Brooklynites had grown to love was gone by the end of the decade. One Flatbush native summed it all up: "It was bad enough when the Dodgers left for Los Angeles, but Brooklyn isn't Brooklyn without the old BMT cars."
Steve. The 1967 Subway Map is misleading when it says that the RJ only ran ntbd in the AM rush and stbd in the PM rush. It ran in both directions. During the AM rush stbd 5 RJ's left 168 St for 95 St between 528am and 619am following this the QJ's began running. During the PM rush ntbd 6 RJ's left 95 St for 168 St from 537 pm to 625pm. The first five of these trains ran express from Essex to Eastern Pkwy. During the time that they ran ntbd there was approx. a 45 break in ntbd QJ service and the RJ's from all Jamaica service.
So, there were numbers & letters assoc. with subway routes from the 20s, so why did the TA publish a map in 1964 WITHOUT any numbers or letters ?
This map has line/branch NAMES, e.g. New Lots; 6th Ave; Jerome; Pelam Bay Park; 4 Ave; Crosstown; Lefferts; etc.
Mr (confused) t__:^)
The BMT adopted a number code in 1925 when the Triplex units arrived. However, these numbers were never used on maps, and were not consistently applied to trains. Besides, most Brooklynites identified train routes by their titles: Brighton, Sea Beach, West End, Culver, etc., instead of 1, 4, 3, and 5, respectively.
The IRT number code came along later, in 1948, with the introduction of the R-12s. For a while, only the Flushing line featured trains with actual number markings. Then in 1955, the R-17s arrived and were assigned to the Lexington Ave. local, which became the 6. As new equipment replaced the old, number markings gradually appeared on other routes. The last Lo-Vs were withdrawn from the mainlines in late 1964, so it's possible that they may have purposely omitted IRT number markings on maps until route markings could be applied consistently on all trains. That goes for the BMT, too. My mid-60s Hagstrom's subway map has number markings for all IRT routes and BMT letter markings, but only for the Southern Division, which by 1965 was served exclusively by R-27s, R-30s, and R-32s. Eastern Division routes continued to be identified by title only, since BMT standards were still holding down the fort there, supplemented by the R-16s, which still had number routes on their roller curtains.
IND letter markings should have been applied to maps all along, since that letter code was adopted when the IND opened for business. My 1948 IND map has these letters next to each corresponding route.
Steve B, Thanks for the addl info. ... maybe my '64 "TA" map was a World's Fair special (has the R-33 in colors & map of Wld's Fair on the back & if you fold it right it says "World's Fair Subway Map"). At the time I was commuting from Sunnyside, so it would have been the map I picked up at 40th Street. I also have a '68 map that has letters (single & double) and numbers for all three boroughs.
Anyhow I'm glad I kept this early subway map so I can figure out what you guys are talking about.
P.S. "Culver Shuttle" in Brooklyn, any ROW left ?
P.P.S. "Nassau Loop" in Manhattan, could the B/D/Q still turn South after entering Manhattan, join the J/Z, then go back to Brooklyn ?
Mr t__:^)
No ROW left for Culver Shuttle except what sticks out of the tunnel mouth e. of 9th Avenue. All built up with houses, condos &c.
The Nassau loop connection was on the south (N) side, I think. It's been closed off and the only way to resurrect it is to punch out the wall and cross at grade or join the southbound track and switch over at grade; I don't think they're going to do that.
A stub of the tunnel still exists n. of leaky olde Chambers Street.
Watch out of the front of a "J" and you'll see it as you take the sharp switch, leading off into the gloom.
Wayne
I don't think there's a wall between the H tracks from the south side of the Manhattan Bridge and the tunnel under Centre Street going to Chambers. Walls were chopped out for the H tracks to swing over to the Broadway express alignment to go into Canal Street. I think there are some new walls on the north side so it wouldn't be possible to run back into Canal from the Chrystie approach tracks coming off the bridge (it's a while since I've been there, so my memory may be off on mid-1960s concrete placement).
The tracks from the bridge going to Chambers have been removed, last I heard, but could probably be put back very easily and if a grade crossing were allowed, both Broadway and Nassau service could use the south side of the bridge. There would be plenty of capacity for both, given the TA's cuts on the BMT Southern Division and the likelihood of further cuts.
What was once a set of healthy services (used to be 24/7) into Nassau Street has been pretty much destroyed by the TA, so it would be unrealistic to expect the connection to be rebuilt (though it used to be great fun on the afternoon 4th Avenue Special to go from Broad, Fulton, or Chambers over the bridge to Pacific, 36th, 59th and then the 4th Avenue local stops to 95th Street). It might be nice to have at least a connection from Nassau into the Brooklyn-bound bridge tracks again for some afternoon rush-hour specials for the Brighton and Fourth Avenue people, as in pre-Chrystie days--and that could be done without a grade-crossing.
I've often thought that now would be a good time to start some new construction on the Manhattan end to put in an underpass so all Brooklyn-bound trains from Broadway and Chrystie would be on the south side of the bridge and all Manhattan-bound on the north (or even the other way around). That way, the bridge wear-and-tear would be balanced a bit better.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Isn't it true that the south side tracks of the Manhattan Bridge saw only rush hour service for most of the 52 years prior to the realignment with the opening of the Chrystie St. connection? They were used first when the 4th Ave. and Sea Beach lines opened in 1915, and trains terminated at Chambers St. before the Broadway line was finished.
I rode a Manhattan-bound Q of slant R-40s over the bridge in October, and you would never know that the north side tracks once led to Canal St. The left side is totally walled off as the train swings north into Grand St. Same thing on the south side: the tunnel to the Nassau loop is also walled off.
About the only way the Nassau Loop will ever again be used to capacity would be if they finally do build the Second Ave. subway and then connect it up to the Nassau St. line heading downtown at Delancey Street. That would also give the line access to the BMT Southern Division through the Whitehall Tunnel -- assuming they ever get the N going back over the bridge again.
Of course, running Second Ave. along Nassau Street (which is aleady four tracks to Chambers) would bypass the planned Grand Street D/B/Q connection on Chrystie St, along with the already-dug Chatam Square section and the Water Street line down to South Ferry, but they could run two lines downtown and just split it off at Delancey, like the M-15 splits at Chatam Square to go to South Ferry or City Hall right now.
There was supposed to be a connection from Nassau St. into Chrystie and Houston in the original Second Avenue plans (look at the first annual report of the TA, for example, to see the routing). Given all the split routes of recent years and the closing of the Manhattan Bridge, it might have turned out to be a useful alternate route.
From the 1920s until just after the TA took over, the Manhattan Bridge tracks connecting to Centre/Nassau Streets were also used on summer Sundays and holidays for the Franklin-Nassau service (which ran from Franklin Avenue, express down the Brighton through Coney Island (usually coming in on Track 'A,' now Track '1,' Manhattan-bound, and Tracks 'C' or 'D,' now '3' or '4,' Franklin-Avenue bound). The route then went express on the Sea Beach and Fourth Avenue, with stops after Stillwell at 59th, 36th, Pacific, and Chambers The route was one of the first axed by the TA most likely because it was unusual (and BMT).
BMT Southern Division Nassau Street service during rush hours was really busy until the TA started its severe cutting (reducing the Culver to a shuttle between 9th Avenue and Ditmas Avenue, for example, and eliminating all express service when Chrystie opened).
The morning routes over the Bridge and south along Nassau were the Brighton Special (the only Brighton service to skip DeKalb and Myrtle), Fourth Avenue Special, and the Culver Express, with West End Locals coming in the other direction from the Tunnel and returning via the Bridge. An occasional Culver Local at the end of rush hour also went back across the Bridge.
In the afternoon, Culver expresses came across the Bridge (skipping DeKalb and Myrtle), then made the three Nassau Street stops, also Court and Lawrence, skipping DeKalb (the only three-route signaling in the system--Tunnel to DeKalb bypass got a green or yellow over blue--green on the bottom was Brighton and yellow was Fourth Avenue). Brighton Specials started at Chambers and ran through the Tunnel, making all stops to Prospect Park (I don't think there was ever rail on the ramp connecting the DeKalb bypass to the Brighton track).
Also in the afternoon, Fourth Avenue Specials started at Broad, then stopped at Fulton and Chambers, crossing on the Bridge, skipping Myrtle and DeKalb, and running express on Fourth Avenue. West End Locals did their regular run "via Tunnel thru Nassau Loop via Bridge to Brooklyn," as the sign curtains said (except on the smaller signs, which only said 'Nassau Street'), going over the Bridge and stopping at Myrtle and DeKalb.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Perhaps one of our Subtalkers could answer this question:
What was the switch arrangement like at DeKalb prior to 1956? I understand that the entire interlocking plant was significantly reworked in the late 50s, at which time the Myrtle Ave. station was closed and the southbound station platform eliminated. Wasn't there a three-way switch somewhere with that blue signal?
In response to Steve B's questions about DeKalb, I don't remember the exact year that the rebuilding was started, but it was later than 1956, wasn't it? To me, the strangest thing about spending all that money to rebuild DeKalb is that all it really amounted to (beyond longer platforms) was to move the delays from the Brooklyn-bound side to the Manhattan-bound side.
Before the reconstruction, except for the connection from the Manhattan-bound Brighton to the bypass track, there were no switches south of DeKalb. Trains from Fourth Avenue came in on the east-most track (currently the 'Bridge' track), Brightons came in on the track which is now the 'Tunnel' track, and expresses bypassing the station were on the current 'express' track. Immediately north of the station was a scissors crossover, with the Bridge/Tunnel/Bridge tracks as now, except that expresses could also use a single crossover from the bypass track to run into the Tunnel. I don't think any regular service ever used that crossover.
Beyond Myrtle, the arrangement was as it is now, but the two tracks going to the north side of the Bridge (from the Myrtle platform and the DeKalb skip track) were both extended to hold ten IND-BMT cars instead of the eight BMT standards--that meant that a train that had stopped at DeKalb that was waiting for a DeKalb-Myrtle bypass train to get ahead of it on the Bridge north of Myrtle would clear the switch so that a train heading for the south side of the Bridge would be able to move down that grade.
On the Brooklyn-bound side, the track from the south side of the Bridge and the track from the north side came side-by-side, with a scissors crossover just north of Myrtle so that Brighton expresses could cross to stop at Myrtle, for example, and Fourth Avenue Specials could cross to the express track to skip Myrtle and DeKalb. The trains from Nassau Street seemed to thread through all kinds of unused tunnel sections instead of just running straight into Myrtle. (That was all reconfigured when the underpass trackage was installed, part of which seems redundant, giving the H-tracks double access to the DeKalb local track but not to the bypass.)
Just north of DeKalb, there was a scissors crossover between the Bridge track coming from the Myrtle stop and the track coming up from the Tunnel route. From the Tunnel track, there was also a single crossover to the bypass track (used by Culver Expresses)--that's where the blue signal was. As I mentioned in my earlier post, green or yellow over yellow meant moving to the right to the Fourth Avenue local track at DeKalb, green or yellow over green meant straight ahead to the Brighton, and green or yellow over blue meant moving to the left to skip DeKalb and go down the Fourth Avenue express track.
Thus, there were no switches south of DeKalb the way they are now. The effect of it all was simply to move the delays from one end of the station to the other and in retrospect one has to wonder whether it was worth it. I think the cost at the time was $27,000,000, but my memory may be off.
(On Fourth Avenue, the single crossovers on both sides north of Pacific to allow Fourth Avenue express service to stop at DeKalb were part of the original track configuration also, but I think they've been moved because of tunnel clearance problems with 75' cars. The trailing crossover between the express tracks is original, too.)
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Ed Alofsin's description is pretty accurate, except that there wasn't
any connection south of DeKalb from the Brighton Line to the bypass
tracks (at least not in the mid-1950s shortly before construction
started on the new arrangement).
Ed Sachs mentions that there wasn't a connection from the Brighton to the DeKalb bypass track northbound. There was. I don't know what year the track was removed, but I rode the Brighton Special on it while I was in high school (1953 to 1957). It was probably one of the first casualties of the DeKalb Av reconstruction.
There seems never to have been a connection on the southbound side from the express track to the Brighton, though it would have been easy to install. With this one exception, the entire DeKalb track arrangement was mirror-image from one side to the other.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
I do recall what looked like an abandoned trackway to the left of the northbound (Manhattan bound) Brighton line track about halfway between Atlantic and DeKalb. Could this have been the connection? It was obliterated early in the reconstruction in the mid-1950s.
- Ed Sachs
Following up on the comment about DeKalb from Ed Sachs, as I recall, the connection from the Brighton northbound to the DeKalb bypass was very shortly after leaving Atlantic Avenue station. Your identification seems to be right.
On the southbound side, the ramp to the Brighton (without track on it) was also visible from the bypass track.
It's many years since the DeKalb reconstruction was started, and trying to remember all the details from the construction is difficult. Was the Brighton access to the Tunnel track moved over a bit, so it wound up closer to the bypass track as it descended into DeKalb, or is that track in its orginal location? If that track hasn't been moved westward, then the descending ramp to the bypass track Manhattan-bound should still be visible (and in fact restorable). The Brighton track to the Bridge local track in DeKalb was all new, as was the wye used by trains coming from Fourth Avenue.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
My guess is that the current Brighton track to the "via tunnel" track at DeKalb is where the connection to the bypass track must have been.
Ed Sachs writes, 'My guess is that the current Brighton track to the "via tunnel" track at DeKalb is where the connection to the bypass track must have been.'
You're basically right. I don't know the exact distance, but I remember that not very far after leaving Atlantic, there was a switch that allowed the descent to the DeKalb bypass track. Don't forget that the track from the Brighton to the outer ("Bridge") track at DeKalb is all new construction. Originally, all Fourth Avenue trains stopping at DeKalb came in on that outer track and all Brightons stopping came in on what's now the "Tunnel" track, with the switching north of the station (which is why I say the main effect of rebuilding DeKalb, other than being able to run longer trains, was to shift the delays from the southbound to the northbound side). The redesign also reflected the TA's general favoritism toward Manhattan over the other boroughs.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
> Originally, all Fourth Avenue trains stopping at DeKalb came in on
> that outer track and all Brightons stopping came in on what's now
> the "Tunnel" track, with the switching north of the station
... which would explain why, if you look at the northbound (Manhattan-bound) platform and follow the tile wall until it meets the "new" construction, the girders holding up the station roof start to curve towards the "tunnel" track, as if a switch was once there. So the northbound platform was extended over where this switch was and this switch was just before the downgrade to Lawrence Street. Is this right?
--Mark (who wasn't born until 1962 :)
Right. Also, there is a break in the wall between the tunnel tracks and the bypass tracks where the crossover was.
The old south ends of the platforms are probably still there (behind a wall) also. The south end was on a curve, and this made for difficult boarding/deboarding due to the gaps between the platform and the train doors. Gap fillers were never installed due to the variety of equipment run (standards, triplexes, and 60' R-series cars).
Come to think of it, I always wondered why this was so. At the southern end, you have a curtain wall between the tunnel tracks and bypass tracks. Then, at the section which was extended northward, you can see the other platform; the curtain wall ends. The next time I'm there, I'm going to try and get a good look at where the platforms were at the southern end.
Yes, the old south ends of the platform are still there, and now I know why!
--Mark
Even allowing for the fact that the platforms were lengthened towards the north, there doesn't seem to be enough room for switches between the current wall tracks and the tunnel tracks. Also, was it ever possible for a train on the bypass track to reach either the Brighton Line or the tunnel?
Bob Sklar
The way the downtown DeKalb Av station functioned was as follows:
North of the station, before the reconstruction:
From the eastmost track (currently used by trains going to the Bridge), Fourth Avenue locals, Culver locals (non-rush), and West End locals (rush) crossed over to the Tunnel track. West End expresses (non-rush) went straight ahead to the Bridge.
From the second track (currently used by trains going to the Tunnel),
Brighton expresses and Brighton Bridge locals (QB, after letters cames in) crossed over to the outer, eastmost track (currently the Bridge track). Brighton Tunnel locals (QT) went straight ahead down the incline and around the curve into to Lawrence Street.
From the bypass track, no regular service operated into the Tunnel, but there was a crossover which could be used if needed. Services skipping DeKalb were Sea Beach express (all hours), West End express (rush hours), Culver express (rush hours), Fourth Avenue Special (morning rush), Brighton Special (morning rush).
Southbound, the westernmost track (currently arrivals from the Bridge only) was used by Fourth Avenue locals (crossing over from the Tunnel track into DeKalb), West End expresses coming from the Bridge (non-rush), West End locals coming from the Bridge (rush hours), Culver locals (non-rush).
The second track (currently arrivals from the Tunnel) was used by Brighton expresses (crossing over from the Bridge track), Brighton locals from Broadway coming from the Tunnel, and Brighton Specials (evening rush).
The southbound bypass track was used by Sea Beach expresses (all hours), West End expresses (rush hours), Fourth Avenue Specials (evening rush), all of those three coming from the Bridge, and by Culver expresses crossing over from the Tunnel track.
As I've said before, other than having longer platforms, the only significant change at the station is that the delays to get into the station were shifted from the north end of the station to the south.
Hope this clarifies the operation at DeKalb before the rebuilding. I don't know if 75' cars could have handled the crossovers; it's moot, anyway, since the affected trackage is all gone now.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam.
The last time I was on the Manhattan Bridge south side tracks (I can't remember when, though), it was possible to see the tracks coming from the Nassau St. Loop. They ran right up to where they connected to the bridge tracks, and there was no wall. They were being used for storage and trains were visible on them.
Bob Sklar
The connection from the tracks on the south side of the Manhattan Bridge (H tracks) to the Nassau Loop was broken in 1967 when the south side tracks were connected to the Broadway Line. It is no longer possible to get from the Nassau Loop to the Manhattan Bridge.
As others have posed the question, what would it take to connect the northbound Loop track (out of Chambers) to the southbound southside bridge ("N") tracks? Is there a wall there or is it just missing tracks? We're talking a one-track connection here for openers.
Wayne
Steve. I have to hand the 1938 World's Fair Edition of the BMT Rapid Transit Lines and they do use route numbers in the service guide portion of the map. The use of the route numbers on the subway maps for BMT Lines may have been discontinued when the BOT took over operation of the trains in 1939.
You're probably right. My 1948 Hagstrom's BMT map does not show number markings at all; in fact, it doesn't even mention the Culver line, even though it does appear on the map! There is a broken red line between Church Ave. and Ditmas Ave., where the IND was eventually connected to the Culver line. The Board of Transportation must have figured it wasn't worth showing number markings on maps if they couldn't be applied consistently on trains. And, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, most Brooklynites used the BMT route titles when speaking of trains instead of numbers.
My 1940 BMT map DEFINITELY has route numbers all over the place at terminals along, the routes,etc. After the city took over it is possible that they discouraged Hagstrom,etc from using the BMT numbers,but, of coure, this is just a guess....As far as the IRT is concerned, the #8 was never used on any train as there were almost exclusively the old Worlds Fair Lo-Vs used on that line until 1969, and the TA never bothered to order #8 on theur roll signs for the other rolling stock as they knew they would closing down the line very shortly..(the same also goes for the MJ in Brooklyn...which also existed only on the 1967 map, and no where else....)
I'll have to hunt down an earlier BMT map for my collection. I do have the BMT numbers straight now. You're right about #8 never appearing on 3rd Ave. trains; the R-12s which ran on that line were marked "Shuttle". Ditto for the Myrtle Ave. el; its trains were never marked in any way, be it #11 or MJ. I still wonder why the multisectionals weren't used on that el even though they did run on the #10 Myrtle-Chambers line.
Steve. The Multi's were ten feet wide and the Myrtle platforms from Broadway south were only 9 feet wide, also there may have been a problem clearing the signal masts.Also when the R-27's started to arrive the TA began retiring all non standard equiptment,i.e.Sirt MU;s,Lo-V's,BX trailers,Multis and the non rebuilt standards. Regards,Redbird.
Probably the main reason that the Multis's never ran on the 'MJ' line was that, as steel cars, they were "qualified" to run in the subway. Up until the early 1960s, the BMT was always short on steel subway cars, borrowing R-1s from the IND, ex-SIRT cars, and ex-IRT low-Vs, as well as using wooden El cars as shuttles to serve the outer ends of the West End and Culver lines.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the Myrtle Ave. el built to wider specs? I've seen photos of the Q cars when they ran there, and they seemed to have been fitted with extension plates at the doors. Otherwise, when they reached the Dual Contracts portion east of Broadway, there would have been a substantial gap between the cars and the platform edges.
My recollection from the 1960s was that the platforms between Broadway and Bridge-Jay were cut back far enought to accommodate 10' wide cars.
Just curious - before the Q's, with extension plates, were assigned to the line in the late 1950s, gate cars were used. These were also 9' wide cars. Were they also fitted with extension plates of some sort?
- Ed Sachs
Ed. The Gate Cars were able to operate on stations with 10 foot clearances because there was a conductor between each pair of cars who could advise and assist passengers over the gap. The Q's were rebuilt from Gate Cars for service on the IRT Flushing Line which was built to 9 foot clearances.When BMT service to Flushing was discontinued in 1949 the Q were sent to the 3 AV El whcih again had 9 foot clearances. When they finally returned to the BMT they were assigned to run on the Myrtle Av El. The platforms from Central Av north had been cut back to accomadate the Standards as part of the dual contract construction.There was no reason to cut back the platforms from Broadway south.You may be thinking of the Fulton St El which had platforms cut back to accomadate the C Types which although they were 9 foot wide had side extentions at platform level on the side of the cars to cover the gap. The C Types could not run on a 9 foot wide line while the Q's could. Hope this helps,regards,Redbird.
The Myrtle Av El after the dual contracts was rebuilt to clear 10 foot wide cars from Central Av north.Stations from Broadway south could only clear 9 foot wide cars. The Q Types when they returned to the BMT after their sojurn on the 3 AV EL were fitted with flanges at the door sills. These flanges were slightly higher than the platform so on the 9 foot wide sections they rode over the platform and on the 10 foot wide sections they served to fill the gap.
Thanks for the clarification. That makes sense.
Just looked at some of the old photos, and indeed they do show that the door sill extensions on the Qs did indeed override the platforms on the Mytrle Ave. line west of Broadway.
Reaching back into my memory, I do recall the step up into the Qs when they ran on the Myrtle Ave. line. Whey they were modified in the late 50s to run on Myrtle, they must have been jacked up a few inches so the extension plates would clear the platforms west of Broadway.
Ed YOu raise a good point. When the Q's went to 3 Av they received trucks from the IRT Composite cars which they were replacing. This caused all sorts of mischief. The Composite trucks were of a maximum traction type I believe and slowed the Q's down considerably.The raised height also meant that the IRT platforms were shearing of the marker lights which were located to the side of the Clerestory (did I spell it right) section of the roof. The markers were relocated away from the roof ends but the Q were lucky to manage 35 mph downhill with a good tailwind.
Regards,Redbird.
When the Qs returned to the BMT in the late 50s, there was consideration given to installing 1300 series trucks, but that would have required extensive rewiring. The clerestory roofs had to be lowered due to tight clearances, in addition to the marker lights being relocated. I remember seeing Qs at the Broadway station from the front of a QJ train, but never rode them.
The Composite trucks were a motor-trailer set with two motors on the motor truck. If the wiring harnesses were changed or not I do not know, but since the 1300's that made up the Q sets were the same arrangement (motor-trailer) I doubt it. The Composite trucks had motors of lower horsepower than the 1300 trucks, so you still had 4 motors per 3 car set, but lower horsepower, thus, lower speed.
The truck were changed because the 3av in Manhattan could not support the weight of the Q sets without some kind of modifications. The reqular stock for 3av was 4 car MUDC sets.
The recreated 1300's in the Museum are unreconstructed Q sets, still with the squashed clearstories. Since they spent $ to unrebuild the BMT Q modifications it is strange that they did not rebuild the roofs. Go Figger.
All of this brings to mind another question.
The Qs went back to the BMT after the Manhattan section of the 3rd Ave. El was abanadoned in 1950. Following that (at least from the early 1960s through the end of service), the remaining Bronx section of the 3rd Ave. El used subway cars (Low-Vs at first, later the 1939 Worlds Fair cars, and finally R-12s).
I recall in the early-mid 60s some newspaper articles about plans to purchase new light-weight cars for use on the 3rd Ave and Myrtle Ave Els.
Question: Was there a weight restriction on the Bronx section of the 3rd Ave. El? If yes, how did they manage to operate subway cars on it in the 60s and 70s? Or were these cars modified to lighten them somehow?
I mistyped. The Manhattan section of the 3rd Ave. El was abandoned in 1955.
- Ed Sachs
I was curious about the weight limit on the Bronx portion myself. Suposedly, the R-12s were modified to run on the el, but I have no idea what would have been done other than using lighter trucks..
There was an R-39 contract in the works for lightweight rolling stock suitable for use on the el, but once it became apparent that the Myrtle Ave. line would be shut down, the order was not placed.
Steve.See my response to Ed Sachs. Recall that the El north of Fordham Road was built under the Dual Contracts and could handle the heavier cars. South of Fordham the El was much older but had been strengthened when the third track was added also under the Dual Contracts.
Regards,Redbird.
Even so, how do you explain the R-12 phenomenon of 5-car trains causing rivets to pop? Maybe the structure was on the verge of collapse.
No I don't think so Steve, but I think that it relates to the total weight of a train in a given area. Remember that the Composites could run on the exp tracks of both the 2Av and 3 Av El's with passengers but in the opposite direction they ran on local tracks without passengers. When the Q came to 3 Av they were placed on Composite trucks for better weight distribution. Perhaps some of our colleagues who have a good knowledge of steelwork could fill us in on this.
Regards,Redbird.
One possibility is the wear and tear angle. A heavy train running on the express tracks makes far fewer starts and stops than it would running local. On the other hand the modifications made to the cars on the Bronx section may have been to mitigate this wear and tear by reducing accelleration rates and top speed. This can be done by cutting field shunts in during starting, reducing motor torque and locking them out when running at speed, reducing top speed. Of course reducing braking performance in a similar manner would be ill advised, so this source of wear and tear could not be mechanically controlled. An experienced motorman can stop a train smoothly and without undue stress on a structure, or as they say "without spilling a drink in the dining car" :)
The Worlds Fair cars were older technology, with lower accelleration rates, and did not require such modifications. They were also geared slower for the Steinway Tunnel grades. The R-12 and R-14 cars were also designed for Steinway service, but were much higher performance and could be degraded by field shunt mods.
Gerry Thanks for the info. When the R-12's were assigned to th El they did have there braking and acclerartion somewhat modified to ease stress on the structure.
Regards,Redbird
Once again, that makes sense. Being postwar cars, the R-12s had higher acceleration and braking rates due to the new generation propulsion system introduced on the R-10s. You might say that slowing them down was a harbinger of things to come, the way things have turned out.
BTW, next time you watch The Incident, listen to the increase in pitch as the World's Fair train used in the movie gathers speed after making a stop. It's a fairly rapid increase, probably due to the way those cars were geared for the Steinway tunnels. By contrast, the motor pitch on the R-1/9s and BMT standards increased more slowly.
Steve.I wasn't aware of that.I'll make it a point to see the movie.Thanks,Redbird.
R-39? How far did this contract ever get? Was an engineering drawing or draft ever made of this car?
--Mark
Ed. The Q's and MUDC's continued to run in the Bronx until Dec,1956 when they were replaced by six car trains of Steinways.In 1961 a Lo-V Trailer was added to each train replacing a StM.Starting in Feb 1962 the World Fair-Steinways were assigned here replacing most but not all standard StM.also a this time the trains were cut to five cars. The R-12 were placed in service starting in Oct 69 and I understand from a now deceased TA friend that on the first day five car trains were operated but the strain was too much and the El had rivets popping all over 3 Av so it was decided to run only four car trains. Steve B is right when he mentions the R-39 Order. It was to be for 120 lightweight cars to run on the 3 Av and Myrtle Av Els but it was never placed. I might add then when the StM were placed in service the Q's were sent home to Brooklyn and the MUDC's went to that "Great Coney Island Yard in the Sky"(read scrapper).
Regards, Redbird
How did the IRT have enough surplus R-12 in 1969 to be able to send some to Third Avenue? The World's Fair cars had been in service since 1964, so this surplus must have existed for awhile, unless there were reductions in service that I'm not familiar with. Also, I assume that the R-12s went to other lines after April, 1973, although I heard at the time that some were scrapped.
It is interesting to note that the MTA started with grand schemes of expansion in 1968, but its actual legacy was to cut back the system (Third Avenue, Myrtle Avenue, and Culver Shuttle). They are getting their act together now, but the history of the first 15 years of the MTA (or indeed the city itself during that period) is nothing to be proud of.
Paul. I don't believe there were any service cutbacks at that time but that it was a question of necessity being the mother of invention. The car stiuation on the El was deteriorating.Remember that in 1968 the museum Lo-V's were placed in service here to help cover the runs.The assignment of a 50 R-12's would not have severely impacted the main IRT service at this time and in 1971 a further four
R-14 were also added(5803-5806).
Regards,Redbird
Redbird: Thanks for the info. I've noticed that most of the old Third Ave. platform is still in place at Gun Hill and White Plains Roads, but that is supposed to be removed when the station is renovated.
Someone else posted the info. that the Second Avenue line was supposed to replace the el service. Actually the Second Avenue line would have run along the Northeast Corridor (ex-New Haven line) and on the New York, Westchester, and Boston trestle to 180th Street and Morris Park Ave. The MTA 1968 plan had a Third Ave. "replacement" service along the Harlem Division, but I don't think there were ever any details about how to build this. I suspect that this proposal was listed to give the plan "balance" but there was never a serious intention to build it.
Paul:You very welcome.What I can tell you about the Second Av plans is my own recollections so don't accept it as gospel. Your right that one branch was suppose to follow the Harlem River Branch(NHRR) to Whitlock Av and connect to the Pelham. This would have meant turning back #6 trains from Manhattan at Hunts Point which would not have made much sense.The other branch was I believe to connect to the White Plains Rd line between Grand Concourse and 3 Avenue.That is probably the reason that destination signs for those those station appeared on the early R-Types.The use of the Harlem Line by 2 Avenue trains was a non-flyer from the start as in NYC days that line was quite busy even with railroad trains much less adding in the subway. It may have been put forward to create an excuse to raze the El in the Bronx. As for the lower level at Gun Hill it remauned in service for some years after April 73 for layups and storage. I have a few photos of R Types on both level after the El stopped running. I think they used it up until the ties needed replacing and then they closed it.
Best wishes, Redbird
Redbird: I think there were indeed several versions of the Bronx end of the Second Ave. line proposed during that period.
Yes, I do think that the MTA was not really serious about replacing the Third Avenue el. When I heard about the Harlem Division proposal, I thought that the only way it would work would be to expand the right-of-way to six tracks. That would have required digging out the side roads and replacing them after adding the new tracks. That would have been a difficult and expensive project, and not something that the MTA would get involved with in that corridor even now.
Happy holidays!
Paul
Paul as an aside to our discussion it was originally planned to have a connection between the Contract I IRT Station at 149 St-Gd Concourse and a station on the NYCRR main line. This is the reason for the upper passageway parrellel to and a level above the southbound platform. This passageway runs from the interchange area with the upper level to a point approx 3/4 of the way to the east end of the southbound platform and ends at a wall. There are stairs leading down to the platform.If you return to the interchange area there is a sign made up of ceramic tiles indicating New York Central trains with I believe and arrow pointing into the passageway. This sign was still there at least two years ago. The NYC station was never built because the railroad decided that it would be impractical to stop trains in the middle of a busy junction.
Best wishes, Redbird
Actually, this is similiar to one of the plans the MTA is mulling over now. (It's just a concept; they haven't done any engineering studies to see if it's feasible.) The Second Avenue subway would be extended to that area and a transfer station built for Metro-North. I guess the existing IRT station could be tied in too. Of course, there is still the railroad junction to deal with, but now that the subway and railroad are run by the same agency, there might be more motivation to solve the problem.
The R-12s which ran on the 3rd Ave. el more than likely wound up on the mainlines after the el closed; however, they almost never ran in solid trains again.
The 3rd Ave. el was supposed to be replaced by the 2nd Ave. line. Enough said. We all know what happened there.
The Myrtle Ave. el was probably slated for dismantling anyway. It was an aging, unrebuilt structure which couldn't handle steel subway trains. I think the feeling was it had outlived its usefulness.
The Culver Shuttle had very low ridership when it was closed.
I remember when the 3Av El was closed and replaced by the Bx-55 bus. The TA promised a bus every minute to replace the El trains in rush hours. A bus every minute on Third Avenue! That would look like an elephant stampede out of the Bornx Zoo.
The Myrtle El was another sad story.We talk about long subway rides. Try riding the B-54 bus from Broadway south.
Regards ,Redbird.
Thurston. Starting I believe in the late 1950's the TA issued the color division map,black for IRT Lines,Red for IND and Green for BMT.The front part of the map which was displayed on subway cars carried no route or service info but only names of individual lines. Apparently you were expected to know what services went were on your own. If you picked up the pocket version from a token clerk you would have found a service guide on the reverse side.However the service guide only used route letters for the IND and route names only for the IRT and BMT even though the D's,R-16's and IRT R types displayed route letters. The 1964 edition for the World's Fair did not carry the service guide as the reverse side carried info about the Fair.Starting with the 1965 map route letters were shown for the IND and BMT Southern Section Lines. Starting with the 1966 map route letters were finally shown for the IRT lines. It was not until the Chrystie St Edition of the Subway Map in Nov 1967 that route designations (ltrs/nums) were shown on the front of the map. Hope this helps. Redbird
The very first edition of the 1967 map also showed different colors for each of the shuttles: orange for Culver, gold for Franklin, light blue for 42nd Street, dark blue for South Ferry, black for Lenox, and green for Dyre. This was the one with "RJ", "NX", "JJ" and other long-lost services on it. The following year, the shuttles all became green and the "KK" appeared.
Wayne
Wayne. I see from the same map that at time (Nov67) there were as you say six routes using the SS designation. When the Myrtle El closed in Oct 69 a seventh was added for the Myrtle Av Shuttle. This persisted until the 1972 edition when the Lenox Term Shuttle was designated Rt 3 and the Dyre Av shuttle was included in route 5.This left four SS routes 42 St, Bowl Gn, Culver, and Franklin.Bowl Gn and Culver were both discontinued and 42 St and Franklin were redesignated Rt S. We have a similar stiuation today were there are three S routes and will be a fourth when the Franklin Shuttle returns.
I do believe I remember that edition BUT all the trains running on the Myrtle Avenue Shuttle, and they were of the R-7 and R-9 variety (with the occasional R42 thrown in for the rush hour), were invariably marked M.
I took a snow-day ride on the "M Shuttle" on Dec 27 1969 it was a sloppy, messy, beautiful trip, with some R-types with heat on, some with heat off, lights on and off, fans on and off too. Rode on PATH for first time that day too & also Newark PCC trolly.
Here's some "M" numbers from 12/27/69: (4-car consists) 1734, 1711, 1654, 1630. 1774, 1616, 1567, 1467 (red vinyl & wicker seats); 1790, 1798, 1701, 1508.. etc.etc. 1755, 1502, 1462 (red vinyl/wicker), 1619
"M" R42s in the Myrtle yard: 4886-7; 4904-5, 4888-9, 4908-9
Wayne
Wayne. Thanks for the info.I didn't know that but one of the most obvious problems after Chrystie St was lack of proper signage.Here's a little bit of transit trivia.The MTA published a book called "Seeing New York,The Official MTA Travel Guide" in 1976. It contained strip maps of the subway lines and the Broad Channel-Rockaway Park Shuttle was designated SS. To the best of my knowledge that is the only time I saw SS used for that shuttle.
My 1976 map shows the following Rockaway Park services:
A 8 Av Exp. Between 207 St and Lefferts Blvd at at all times. Through service or connecting service at Euclid Av or Broad Channel to and from Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park at all times. Express in Brooklyn rush hours.
CC 8 Av local Between Bedford Park Blvd. and Euclid Ave or Rockaway park rush hours only.
No mention of "HH" or "SS" at all.
Wayne
Wayne. That's what my map says also. The Rockaway Round Robin was considered part of the A and the Rockaway Park Shuttle was part of the CC.When the TA went over to single numbers the H was created for both shuttle services. I find this first listed in the Fall 1985 revision of the subway map. The booklet to which I referred was a one time publication that had general info on all the MTA services including the Port Jervis and Pascack Valley Lines being run by the Erie-Lackawanna Railway. Regards,Redbird
Say, I have that same book, too. It even has the Bowling Green shuttle, referring to it as an extension of the 5 to South Ferry when the 5 wasn't running in Manhattan. There is, I believe, erroneous information on the N. The book states the N ran local in Manhattan at all times except rush hours, when it ran express in the non-peak direction. If I remember right, just the opposite was true. Normally, the N ran express in Manhattan; during rush hours it ran local to Coney Island in the morning and from Coney Island in the afternoon. During this time, it also made short turns at Whitehall St. during rush hours, replacing the EE which had been dropped.
Oh and Wayne, I'm curious: how do you keep track of car numbers and assignments? Do you keep a notebook with you and just write down everything you see, or what? I did that back in 1984-85 while trying to note marker light combinations. Once, while noting the green-white marking on a D train of R-32s, the motorman looked at me real funny and wanted to know just what the $%#@ I was doing. When I told him, he said, "That should be right. Right out of the Book of Rules." I still wish I had paid attention to the marker lights way back when.
As I have been doing since April 7, 1969 here's how I do this:
In the subway: If I don't have many numbers of the series, I write everything down that I see. I also include a balloon (circled letter or number) indicating the line I saw them on. This is also true if I am taking a census (like I'm doing now with R32-38-40-42).
If the series is near complete (90% or more), I spot off of my short list (more on this below) and circle the ones I see.
Back at home: I crosscheck the numbers I write down against my Master Numbers Book, in this case, Volume 7. Any numbers that are not written in the Master book are new, and I fill the blank in the appropriate column. If I get more than 90% of a car type, I create a "short list", which is in the front of my in-the-subway notebook. As these get circled while on the road, they get filled in the master book. I use a light-colored pencil to cross out the ones I have already collected.
On the computer: I use Lotus 1-2-3 which keeps a sheet for each cartype. Same procedure as the paper method. If I see it and it's not on the list, I fill it in. Each sheet is color-coded and organized the same way as the Master Numbers Book is.
Wayne
Thanks for the info. I think you've earned the title of Mr. Numbers, as well as Mr. Slant R-40. You da man!!!
And to think that I wrote down the marker light combinations I saw on a 4x6 piece of paper. It's in one of my desk drawers now.
Do you remember the blizzard that hit New York on Christmas night in 1969? We were visiting friends in Glen Cove, and it took us four hours to get home in Pompton Plains, NJ. A few days later, we went into the city for the day, taking in "A Boy Named Charlie Brown" at Radio City Music Hall. We even boarded a D train from the center platform at 59th St. that day. Those were the last days of the 20-cent fare; I still have a number of 20-cent tokens.
Yes I do - it wasn't so much a blizzard - more like a 7-inch snowfall.
But there were blizzard-like conditions during the storm.
Saturday, Dec. 27, 1969 found my Mom and I aboard an R42 of the QJ at 9:30am bound for Myrtle Avenue and a quick run up to Metropolitan Avenue and back (we went up and back twice, enjoying the messy R-7s and R-9s). Back at Myrtle/B'way after the second pass on the M Shuttle, we hopped on an R27/30 QJ to Canal, then we got an RR to go two stops to Cortlandt Street. I was at the front window for the S Curve coming into Cortlandt; it was an R27/30. We got off and went to the OLD Hudson terminal (with the loop tracks and the dangling Casablanca type fans) and in came this PA-1 PATH train, howling, hooting and screeching like a banshee. We went all the way to Newark and then got on the Newark Trolley. It was lovely riding along Branch Brook Park with the new fallen snow. Up to Franklin Loop and back we went. My Mom was very impressed with the trolley; it reminded her of the trolleys in DC and Brooklyn. Back to the PATH and a change at Journal Square. Since it was Saturday, we went to Hoboken then back up to 33rd Street. Mom and I went to Macy's and Gimbels to take advantage of some post-Xmas sales, then we boarded an F train which was an R-6 to go to Rock Center to see the Tree. After a bite to eat at a local restaurant (I forget which), we got back on the F and it was a Slant R40, number 4188. I stood fast at the long front window all the way to 169th Street. A very nice trip! Poor Mom was all tuckered out, though.
Wayne
Casablanca fans, huh? We've got three of them in our house. Good fans, too.
There used to be a Howard Johnson's restaurant at Rockefeller Center on the west side of 6th Ave. We ate there a couple of times in the spring of 1967. One Sunday, either May 7 or May 21, we rode into the city by bus from Paterson, and took an AA up to 81st St. and the Museum of Natural History, only to find it hadn't opened yet. My father asked a gentleman how to get to HoJos, and he gave us directions: AA to 59th, D to 47-50th. And so we did - R-1/9s all the way, motors humming along, "Coney Island" lit up on the D train. Heading back to the museum, we changed back to an AA at 59th, and it left the station side by side with the D train we got off of. It was interesting to watch the D descend at the point where the express and local tracks trade places, and reemerge on the opposite side. And, of course, at 81st, an A train roared past before we had exited the station. At that time, I hadn't grasped the concept of local and express tracks, and wondered why there was a separate track separated by I-beams with trains passing by without stopping.
As I mentioned yesterday, it seems that map publishers were reluctant to put route markings on their maps until they could be applied consistently on all trains. Take the BMT, for instance. Sure, you had the Triplex units, the multisectionals, the oddball units, and even the R-11s and R-16s, all of which had bulkhead signs with number markings. Still, the BMT standards outnumbered all other BMT units combined, and of course they had no route signs. Because of their sheer numbers, the standards ran on just about every given BMT subway route every day. There were exceptions, but for the most part, none of the BMT routes were served exclusively by rolling stock equipped with route signs. Four routes came close: the Canarsie (multisectionals signed up with #16 to Rockaway Parkway; #13 to Lefferts Blvd.); Jamaica (15) and Myrtle-Chambers (10), both of which used R-16s (and a few R-10s); and the Brighton (1), where most of the Triplex units were assigned. The Franklin Ave. shuttle deserves mention, too, since the Zephyr ran on it, as well as the R-11s, with #7 signs. In other words, you were more likely to encounter a train with a number marking on the Eastern Division than the Southern Division.
By 1965, the entire Southern Division had new equipment (R-27s, R-30s, and R-32s) with letter route signs. Since all trains on that division were now consistently marked, it was felt appropriate to start including letter markings for Southern Division routes on maps.
Does anyone know what city still uses unmodified RTS busses with the backs slopped. I would like to know.
Philadelphia may have a few old RTS slopebacks left running around.
Hey guys from Phila., can you verify?
Chuck Greene
No, Chuck, too late - they're all gone from the property. I believe the last ones in service were withdrawn about a year ago. The Ikaruses (Ikari?) killed them. Their demise was, in the opinion of this writer (who occasionally had to ride one), too slow - they did not age well, and most developed a very irritating rattle.
As far as I know, one of the 35-footers, I think 4459, was saved for use as a crew bus by Light Rail Operations. It was painted orange and had a rest room added.
Washington DC had a number of slopebacks which received the modified AC unit on the slope, slightly revising the look of the rear end, although the modification was not very attractive (it was easy to tell it was an add on, unlike others on other properties which were hard to detect). These may still be in operation, and if so, are coming up on 20 years of age next year. The last I saw, most were confined to the Virginia bases.
I remember the Westchester Cty bus line had some of those slopebacks years ago. These too were bacfitted w/ the A/C mod.
I live in "BEE LINE" territory and there were some earlier this year but now I haven't seen them since February. Your confirmation is correct, I took a trip to Nimco Shredding in Newark across from Naporanos Iron and Metals where last year they handled the destruction of the Septa models. In June I did see 2 Bee Line buses being run through the press.
Kenosha Transit has one in service. It was delivered new to Fond du Lac Wis. on 1978 0r 79 and has been in service since. I received some minor structiural repairs and new paint in 1997 and openeing windows in 1998 so it can be operated without the AC running.
It is in tripper and spare revice but it looks good and runs well.
I went to NIMCO again today and seen a GREEN Line 1979 RTS II , probably out of the Rockaway garage. There were tons of Washington DC merto flxibles and 5306s as well. The Septa RTSs were somewhat still there. The TAs entry for the "Rodeo" was 2499 as of Dec 13, 98.
Bobw,
Those WMATA RTS's are still running and since WMATA still has many GM fishbows (mostly 5304, but some 5301, 5306 and Flxible 53096-6-1), I don't those RTS's are going anytime soon Unless WMATA gets another big order of buses. WMATA recently took deliver of Orion V's. I know the order was for 262, but 50 of them were bought by NYC-DOT and are at Green Bus Lines and Queens Surface Corp.
Where exactly is NIMCO - I would like to drive there and see what's there.
Wayne
Thanks. WMATA sure gets the mileage out of its buses! SEPTA's RTS's were probably ready for the junkyard in the early 90's but a few more years were squeezed out of them, literally.
Are the WMATA RTS's still concentrated in VA? When I was last there for an extended visit in '95, this seemed to be where they were all hanging out.
I believe many of the GM fishbowls still in service were those leased out to SEPTA in '79-'80 and NYC later. Is this the case? I thought I recalled many of the 6500-6600 series here when the buses were leased, in addition to the 6800-series Flxibles. SEPTA temporarily renumbered all the leased buses by subtracting 4000 from the WMATA number and placing the coaches in the 2000 series.
Bobw,
Yes, Most of WMATA's RTS's are in VA, but there are a bunch of them on the MD side also.
Also of the GM fishbowls many of them are 1300, 3800, 6400,6500 and 6600's. There are also 2500, 2600 and 1400's. Those that were in NYC were mostly 6400, 6500 & 6600, but there were some 1300's also. At the time NYCTA renumbered them into the 1700 and 1800 series.
I was always surprised that the 6800-series Flxibles and their WV&M counterparts (I think they were 2800's?) went to their demise as quickly as they did. Theses were the first Flx's I ever saw in person back in spring '71 (just before SEPTA bought some). I don't recall that these lasted very long on WMATA, for some reason, especially given the long life of their GM counterparts.
What was the exact reason WMATA rejected these Orions which ended up in NYC DOTs hands?
Nimco Bus Division is located on Dureymos Av in the "Ironbound" section of Newark. Nimco Shredding is across the street where the pressed steel is processed.An exit (Dureymos Av) off routes 1 & 9 will get you there, just north of Newark airport. They obviously handle MANY contracts and it is kind of sad to watch as "Coaches go in but they don't come out". Some of them are driven in on their own motor power too. Many of the "Blitz" buses were. They are just north on the block from the NJT Dureymos Av garage if it is any help to get there. There is another salvage company up the block which handles heavy trucks too such as NYC garbage trucks.
Don't you mean "Doremus" Avenue?
I know where that is -- Ferry Street and Wilson Avenue will take you there from downtown Newark.
Sorry for my mispelling that is what I meant to spell.
Queens Surface has a few active RTS-02 Slopebacks w A/C that were loaned from the Bee Line/Liberty (6 down from 16). These too will go back soon now that the Orion V CNGs have started comming.
Mr t__:^)
P.S. I heard this AM that the last 6 of these Slopebacks at Queens Surface will go back to Liberty before the end of this month. So, you guys have a few more days to catch a ride on one before they go back into storage, or are sold/scrapped.
Mr t__:^)
Thurston, are those the Westchester Bee-line slopebacks or the former Bridgeport slpoebacks??
The, fromer, Bridgeport's aren't Slopebacks, they're -03A vs. -03s. There are an even dozen of them that the boss bought from DOT & are in a little better shape then the "Liberty's", so they'll stay here for a while longer.
Mr t__:^)
Does anyone know where I can find out who the artists are whose work will appear in the New York Subway System in the near future?
Anyone going to the show at Fort Washington, Pa. on Saturday?
I'll be there with my new "el" radiant tee shirt on.
Show is on Sat. 12th, and Sunday, 13th.
Chuck Greene
I may go but it won't be Saturday - more likely Sunday.
Hi, I read Steves post about Lirr signals. Can any explain what these
signals mean? ie, what does "Medium Approach" and "Absolute Clear"
mean?
Green over Red -- Proceed
Green over red (flashing) -- Absolute Clear
Yellow over Red -- Approach
Yellow over Green -- Approach Medium
Red over Green -- Slow Clear
Red over Yellow -- Restricting
Green over 2 Reds -- Medium Clear
According to the LIRR Rule Book:
Medium Clear - Proceed medium speed except in ASC territory, train will be governed by speed displayed on cab signal indicator, not to exceed 35 MPH within interlocking limits.
This usually means that the train will be taking a diverging route.
Absolute Clear - Proceed: Track clear to next interlocking signal. Approach next interlocking signal prepared to stop.
According to the LIRR Rule Book:
Approach Medium - Proceed approaching next signal at medium speed, except in ASC territory, train will approach next signal governed by speed displayed on cab speed indicator, not to exceed 35 MPH.
Medium Clear - Proceed medium speed except in ASC territory, train will be governed by speed displayed on cab signal indicator, not to exceed 35 MPH within interlocking limits.
(This usually means that the train will be taking a diverging route.)
Absolute Clear - Proceed: Track clear to next interlocking signal. Approach next interlocking signal prepared to stop.
I was traveling last week on the 6:21PM out of Penn Station to Hicksville and my one way ticket was punched. Yet they never collected my ticket after Jamaica. So I took the ticket when I got off the train. Now I looked at the ticket and it hit me. So I ask this question. Is there a meathod to how they punch the ticket? Meaning, if I got on again at Jamaica could I use it like I transfered? And that other thing the conductor sticks in the seat with your ticket. That numbered paper. Does that mean what zone you came from?
Also, If you buy a ticket on the train they give you that nice long receipt. On the back there is a space for the letter "B". What does B mean?
For the first question, the answer is a qualified yes. On the ticket there is an 'E' and a 'W'. When you boarded at Penn Station, the Conductor punched twice around the 'E' side of the ticket. On leaving Jamaica they usually punch a 3rd time before they take the ticket. If your ticket has only two punches, you can use it from Jamaica - eastbound (or westbound if it's puched on the 'W' side) This only applies to the stock tickets and not to the paper tickets sold on trains. (This is how I understand the C/Rs procedures to work. I offer no guarantees)
Each zone has a number: Elizabeth, North Elizabeth is 2, Linden is 3, Rahway is 4, MetroPark is 5, Metuchen 6, Edison 7, New Brunswick and Jersey Ave 8, For princeton Junction they tear the seatcheck and for trenton they just unch E or W. Going towards NYC a tear is Newark and just E is NY Penn.(I'll leave raritan and the Coast line and Hoboken division to others.)
I've had a similar experience to Russ's on SEPTA's regional rails. A couple of times I've boarded at University City and rode through Center City on R6 in the late evening. All tickets get lifted before entering 30th St. Crews change at Suburban Station. Upon leaving Market East, tickets get lifted again for the outbound. If you don't ask for your ticket back before 30th, the crew wants to charge you again, but they don't tell you this. Why anyone would get on at UC and not continue through on the same train or change to another at 30th, Suburban or Market East is beyond me. But, the crews don't tell you to hang onto your ticket and they don't tell you you'll need it again.
In some cases, it's possible to travel between Jamaica and Penn Station for free. Conductors sometimes aren't able to check tickets on really crowded rush hour trains.
Re: Punching once, twice, etc.
You paid for two Zones, he/she punched that you used up the first, but basically it would be hard to use it again (buy first zone & use the unpunched second ???). I he/she takes your ticket & you're still on the train the next time by you'll get asked for more money.
Re: The "Other thing" ... that piece of paper tells the Conductor if he got you already, so the next time thru he'll gab the paper and walk right by you.
The others are right, sometimes they'll miss you altogather, but Daily tickets are much more expensive then Monthly, so you would have to get missed a lot to make out. Some people try hiding in the toliet, but they check that too. Some folks try walking past a conductor who is taking tickets, but they'll usually come back after you. I walked to the front car last weekend & the guy asked to see my ticket when he came back to the front.
Mr t__:^)
[The others are right, sometimes they'll miss you altogather, but Daily tickets are much more expensive then Monthly, so you would have to get missed a lot to make out. Some people try hiding in the toliet, but they check that too.}
Considering the condition of LIRR restrooms, someone would have to be a *real* cheapskate to restort to that trick!
Not that I would endorse fare evasion of any type, but those little things they use are seat checks (Amtrak uses em too). They tell the conductor where you are going, not where you came from. Notice if you will anyone changing at Jamica, sometimes conductors will return the tix to the passanger (needed on the next train) fold over the end of the seat check a different way then the seat checks for pax staying on the train (who's tix they collect).
During Rush hours all bets are off IMHO, I even rode NYP to Smithtown on Thanksgiving and never had my ticket lifted (that was a crowded train).
Something I've always wondered...
When a train reaches a terminal, there is a sound of escaping air after the train has stopped. I have alwats assumed that this is the dumping of air which applies the brakes at the terminal stations.
2 questions about this:
1) How is it done? Do the Train Operator simply let go of the controller after the train has reached the terminal causing the air to dump and the brakes to apply, or is there some type of switch/button that is pushed to make this happen.
2) How does a Train Operator let go of the controller while the train is stopped at a station en-route without dumping the air. I would assume he would move the "key" to neutral and then let go of the controller. Is this true, or is there another way.
Thanks,
Mike B
Yes Mike, by releasing the controller at the terminal, you apply the emergency brakes. This is required by the rules as you must test the dead man's feature at the end of every run. Enroute, you negate the dead man's feature by placing the brake handle in the full service position, applying the maximum service brake.
Steve can elaborate on this but on the standard cars, the brake handle must pass through the emergency position to reach the handle off position, thus, the process of removing the handle forces the train into emergency. If I remember my SMEE equipment well enough the Compressor on each car then maintains the application until a brake handle is inserted somewhere and the emergency pipe recharged.
Boston's old East Boston Cars at Seashore work this way. If you are really fast you can get the handle off without enough air escaping to dump the train, but that is not a good practice.
At intermediate stops, there is an air interlock on most equipment which deactivates the dead-man when full service is reached. I know that the Gibbs Car at Seashore requires removal of the reverse key to lock out the dead-man. I am not sure on the R4 or R7 cars but all of these are train air cars, and use a totally different braking system. SMEE arrived with the R-10/12 and is one of the reasons why 1575 couldn't run with the cars it looked like!
On NYCT "SMEE" style cars (with separate brake and controller handles)
handle-off is beyond emergency, so you need to dump to get your
handles off, unless of course you are a naughty top-sider.
The deadman can only be negated by putting the brakes in full service.
The R44 and R46 cars were both delivered with single-handle slide
controllers. If memory serves, you had to come all the way back
to emergency before you could get your "skate" key out.
Now both series have "Cineston"-style rotary single handle controlers.
Not sure about the R44, but it seems on the R46 you can get your
reverse key out in only Full Service. You don't hear R46 trains dump
at the terminals. Steve, do you remember the CEE engineering reason
for this?
On R1-9s, LoVs, HiVs, ABs, D Types and many many other "train-air"
(schedule AMRE, AMUE, AML, etc.) systems one can remove the brake
handle without dumping, or even putting the brakes in full service.
The deadman is killed by centering the reverse key and has nothing
to do with the degree of brake application.
I'm not sure what you are referring to on the 46s. All equipment is required to dump at the terminals. R-46s are no exception. There was an attempt by CEE to silence the brake release and the dump but that never had much support and was dropped.
Back before overhaul, we sometimes would not dump the 44s or 46s at terminals. Since the emergency feature on both was electrical, this was possible. It was done because it was common to lose P-Wire when the train was dumped and recharged. So we tried not to dump them...
My memory of the pre-GOH R46 fleet is growing dim....I thought
one had to bring the controller handle all the way back to
EMERGENCY in order to turn and remove the "skate" key.
On the GOH R46 with NYAB controller, the reverse key can be
removed in FULL SERVICE.
On conventional cars, 37 Volts applied to the EMV wire would dump the train while on Pre-Overhaul R-44s and 46s, 37 volts was used to hold the EMV circuit (the absence of battery voltage on the EMV wire would cause the train to "go into the hole". With this arrangement. If the operator (operating from one end) left that end in charfe, went to the other end and put that master controller into the "Max-Brake" position, then went back tot he original position and put that handle into the emergency position, the train would not dump. We referred to this as "Taking over the Charge". It was used to prevent P-Wire loss at terminals. Oddly enough, since two master controllers were activated at the same time, P-Wire was lost until one master controller was placed into emergency and switched off.
BTW - you are correct about the reverser on the current R-46. The reverser key can be removed with the handle on the full service position. However, with the key out, the handle is locked there.
How about the Redbirds? I saw the operator take the reverser key out. The deadman was engaged and the brake handle was in full service.
Can the controls be moved with the key out?
How about the LIRR and MNCRR?
What is the deadman like on Amtrak?
On any dual handle system on the NYCT you can remove the reverser key with the brake valve in any position. The only condition is that the master controller MUST be in the coast position.
LIRR and Metro North so not have reverser keys. They have reverser levers which are unlocked by the use of a console key.
LIRR and MNCRR M cars are like the old R44/46 controllers just place handle in full service, Amtrak is ciutting edge and uses nothing of the sort. Should an engineer fail to operate some sort of control ( horn cock, bell, brake or throttle, etc.) for more than a specified amount of time then a warning tone sounds increasing in volume and pitch for 90 seconds until either the acknowledge button is depressed or the trains brakes are applied automatically.
On cars like the redbirds, the brake and control are separate entities, the only interrelationship is that you cannot remove your hand from the dead-man unless the brakes are in full service. You can only remove the reverse handle when the controller is in coast (or off). Once you do the controller is locked, and can't be moved until a reverse handle is inserted and placed in either forward or reverse. If the brake valve is like the ones on the East Boston Cars, when you go to take the handle off, you place it in emergency, lift up slightly and then move it to handle off and lift it out. This feature prevents accidentally missing emergency.
On CTA 4000 series cars there is an interesting relationship between the dead-man and the reverse handle: If you push down the dead-man with the reverse handle in neutral, the handle pops out. If you are standing and male, it hits you where it hurts. :)
Oh! That's what you meant about the pre-GOH R46. Yes, I remember
that technique of changing ends, usually best when there was a
switchman on the other end, because otherwise you needed an extra
skate key. Ah....I miss the old 46 consoles, especially Wayside
Regulated Speed Mode :)
During the days of P-Wire, only on the 44's were you able to have a MOTORMAN on each end in which one would be able to take over operation of the train in the opposite direction in a relay position without having to apply the emergency brakes before changing direction. We were taught the name of this was "tooling".
Steve:
If the motorman removes his key in full service as you indicated is possible, that leaves the control circuits locked but the brakes set up in apply. My experience tells me that he might be able to go to another controller, insert his key and actually release the brakes on part of the train since the straight air pipe would be vented on his end but still being fed from the other controller. The electric part would probably function from the end where the key was since it is usually fed from a master reverser contact. This could create a sticky situation. Obviously the feature is designed to allow the motorman to remove his key while going to remove debris on the track, or when being relieved, without having to recharge the train. Any thoughts?
Gerry
If the m/m were to leave hir position at the front of the train
with the brake valve still in full service, the master controller
OFF and the reverse key centered and removed, then go to another
control position, insert the reverse key and place it in forward
(or reverse) AND put (presumably a spare?) brake handle in and
place it in release, the train would be stuck in emergency because
that brake handle will have passed through the emergency position
on the way to release and, once dumped, the train will not be able
to recharge because the other valve at the front position will be
blowing air into the brake pipe.
If you could somehow get past this hitch, then, I'd theorize,
you would have a varying straight air pressure between the two
control points. What the values would be is guesswork. Let's
assume that the valve up front is feeding some straight air. There
will be some pressure > 0 at the other valve. Since that valve
is in release and the SAP will be >0, the self-lapping section
will stay over towards release, energizing the trainline R wire.
So, all of the other brake valves in between will be venting the
straight air pipe, including the head-end valve, which will not
be energizing the A wire because the reverse key is centered and
the 3AB wire is dead. So, in conclusion, I'd hypothesize that
some small straight air pressure would exist between the front valve
and the other active valve.
What you are talking about becomes very technical but I'll try to walk through it. What you suggest is not technically possible under normal conditions. On the R-46 controller, with the controller out of the 'Handle Off' position, there is a switch (M-6) which is closed, applying B+ to the electric self lapper which would be in the 'apply' position meaning the A switch would be closed. This would keep the Straight Air Pipe at full Service levels if the brake system were charged. If you went to another position and were able to get past the 'emergency' position (which is possible)and tried to release the brakes, the air volume on the 'A' magnet valve, by design, is greater than that of the 'R' magnet valve. Therefore, the brakes would never release fully.
If you cut out the AB breaker in the non-operating position, then you'd get an electrical release trainline BUT you'd still have a pneumatic application from the non-operating position. The brakes would never fully release, at least not at the front of the train.
There are ways to get around all that but I'm not gonna give it up now. I may want to use it in an updated version of "The taking of Stillwell 123" ........ Just kidding
OK them method of energizing the A circuit via a power handle off interlock makes this much less plausible, I am used to systems where this is fed through a reverser interlock, but, the reverse handle can only be removed in handle off.
Season's Greetings
Gerry
As long as it's not filmed in Toronto, right?
I cannot speak specifically about 44s & 46s, but the theory would apply to some extent there as well. Unless someone can break out a car manual and show me otherwise, there is no way that you can charge that train again once *any* service is already applied on the train (unless, of course, you isolate the second car that you are charging, which defeats the purpose of this discussion).
Should anyone attempt to charge a car at a second point on a train, while the first one is applied in any manner, the second car cannot charge, and the train is going to begin to blow straight air. You would see the needle on the gauge waver back and forth.
This same effect is noticed if there is a leak.
I think that I may have missed the question that started it all, but this is in response to Gerry's post.
+Mike
The premise was that (on a cineston type controller) if the motorman was fast enough in getting the handle from the handle off position to the apply position without dumping the emergency pipe (you have to pass through emergency), it would be possible to partially release the brakes on a long train while the other end was still in apply. The key to doing so is how the a wire in the train line is fed. If it is from the reverser (as in the cars I have experience with), you could get the release. If it is through an interlock on the master control you would not be able to since the self-lapper on the original end would hold the 'A' wire hot. (this is the way Steve says it is on NYCT).
On the pre overhauled R-44s the emergency vent valves were normally open in emergency, they would be fed 36 volts d.c. to close the coils and therefore the valve when the master P-wire controller was placed to "charge" position. Because you did NOT have P-wire until the emergency contactor was closed (train fully charged) if the train was charged, you could place the controller on the other end of the train to CHARGE then have your relay partner place his end in shutdown without de-energizing the EMVs. R-46s should have been the opposite, because they always dumped no matter what you did. As far as cheating ME 42 valves this way, I noticed it is easier on NYAB valves to quickly swipe a TOP SIDED valve from full service to handle out without dumping the train and vice verse. The B2s A & R function is fed trainline by having both the circuit breaker closed and the valve in full service to full release range. Emergency or handle out de-energizes the B2. Centering the reverser while the train is charged
only opens the 3 and 5 wire, as far as brakes are concerned, preventing dynamic brake.
You are correct about the NYAB Brake Valve as compares to the WABCO equivalent. In fact, it's easy to 'Quick Charge' an R-46 too. It has to do with the way NYAB positions the emergency check valve in the brake valve assembly. However, you are wrong about the pre-overhaul R-46. The R-46 EMV circuit was the same as the R-44 and opposite all SMEE equipment. If you lost the EMV feed, the EMV would open, putting the train into emergency. I also seem to remember that you could take over the charge on an R-46 also but would bot bet on it right now....
That's right. #1575 remained an R-7A from a mechanical and electrical standpoint and could not run in m. u. with the R-10s. It only LOOKED like an R-10, so naturally it stuck out like a sore thumb in a train of sister units. I never saw that car in revenue operation, though. One question: did its doors open and close as fast as the doors on the R-10s, or did it keep the same door engines as on the R-1/9s?
SEPTA and NJT are installing these on their electric fleet. They are added on units and even have the flashing feature found in the newer push pull cars.
The LIRR installed ditch lights on it's loco fleet about 2 years ago. All the MUs had headlights installed, thereby causing the old headlights to be referred to as ditch lights too. I believe that 'ditch lights' are now required by the FRA.
Those ditch lights on the LIRR MU's really kill their look, IMHO. They are almost repulsive to me.
NJ Transit MU's always had ditch lights . . . what do you mean they're just installing them?
These are the high-beams above the end doors, no? I HATES 'EM!
They look awful! And many times I've been driving along Hoffman Avenue in Lindenhurst or West Babylon at night and here comes an MU on the El and that light is blinding. Trains stopped at Lindy station heading east can be a bit of a problem - the light's right in my field of vision. Can't they dim them like the original headlights?
Wayne
If it's blinding you, it's doing it's job. I'd assume it can be dimmed because dimmable headlamps are required by the FRA. Those 'cyclops' headlights ruin the look of an MU? They didn't look so great to begin with! But, if you are seriously considering the 'look' facotr with that new headlight on LIRR MUs, you've never seen MNCRs. That one looks like a pimple! A least the dual lamp on the LIRR doesn't look dinky.
They are FRA Mandated for all locomotives (and control cars)on railroads with grade crossings. It improves the visibility of the train to traffic. The MUs also had a circuit installed that allow the original headlights, now the ditch lights, to flash alternately when the horn is sounded, or by a switch activation.
-Hank
I guess they did the best they could in retrofitting the headlamps - but up close they look pasted on (again, the best they could do.)
They kind of intrude on the smooth crown of the MU end (which is similar to that of R42/R44/R46 and others) - aesthetically not the best, but FRA rules are the rules, so...safety first. They DO get in your eyes when you're driving on a road parallel to the tracks.
Wayne
Personally, I'd like to see some study that actually shows these things being more visable before mandateing it. But then, the FRA also prohibits passenger trains from doing greater than 110 I think. Go figure..
The New Haven line has no grade crossings, yet they have these lights.
Headlights flashing with horn? I wouldn't be surprised, the M-1s had lots of goodies that were either never used or disabled.
I believe the FRA rule came from the NTSB finding of several accidents at grade crossings. I'm seraching the NTSB site but most of the stuff is on Aircraft stuff.
I wonder if PATH has to add them, they have one grade crossing on the citybound Newark line near the shops? lol.
The grade crossing you saw is used only by PATH personal and PATH
trucks and cars. I'm pretty sure they are very careful when they go over the crossing. By the way, I think it's on privity property.
[The New Haven line has no grade crossings, yet they have these lights.]
While there aren't any grade crossings on the New Haven main line, there are some on the New Canaan branch.
Our light rail cars in Denver have that feature, too. There's a button marked, "Wig/Wag" on the operator's console. The headlights will flash alternately as a train pulls into a station and when running downtown. On the separate ROW stretch, the wig/wag feature is not used. I rode that line last Saturday, and on my return trip, the train was pushing 60 mph, up into the red line area on the speedometer. The speedometers read up to 65 mph; the portion above 55 is outlined in red.
BTW, construction on the southwest extension along Santa Fe Drive is proceeding on schedule and under budget. They're saying it may cost $14 million less to complete that section than originally planned. All crossings will be grade-separated; all bridges are now in place. There is a flyover bridge still under construction; it's located where the light rail line trades places with the Rio Grande and Santa Fe railroad tracks. I personally can't wait for the extension to open!
The new lights are wire in parallel to the older lights on the LIRR MUs, meaning they also mimic their operation. If the 'ditch lights' are dimmed, the new lights should also be dimmed. There are (were) a few wired backwards but have most likely been corrected. As for dimming the lights, LIRR rules call for dimming the lights for several reasons such as approaching another train or on entering a station. There is no rule covering operation when tracks parallel a road used by autos
The new lights are on the front of the train car- not the sides by the doors. they supplement the high dual headlights. The new ones are add ons such as NYCT added to older cars.
The ones on the sides illuminate the low platform area.
I was the inquiring girl from not that long ago, that was searching for subway accidents and related information. I doing well on my project now, and I would just love to thank all of those people that assisted me!! Thanks again!! Nice meeting all of you and have very happy holidays!!
Sincerely,
Amanda
After an outage and change of ISP, Model SubTalk is back! We're now at http://www.monmouth.com/user_pages/patv/railroad.html.
So, join us and enjoy discussions of modeling activities.
Last Sunday, with the weather being the spring-like conditions that it was, I decided to use the day to do a little detective work in trying to locate any of the now defunct railroads that once thrived in Kings County. I drove over to the old Bush Terminal yard and saw the remnants of a once busy freight yard. Their were two worn Alco diesels along side a graffiti-covered caboose. A partially restored steam locomotive with the initials BEDT was sitting on a siding. It was used as late as the 1960's on a freight line called the Brooklyn Eastern District Terminal that once dominated the waterfront in the Williamsburg/Greenpoint area.
Having lived in Brooklyn most of my life (now a Nassau County resident), it was a surprise to find the amount of rail history (and not just subway-related) that is a part of the borough.
The last time I visited the Transit Museum, I picked up a very good book called "Brooklyn's Waterfront Railways"(by Jay Bendersky ISBN# 0-0620237-0-1). It is a fantastic pictorial guide of the various railroads that unloaded the float barges during the earlier part of this century. Even as late as the early 1980's many of these lines were still in operation. One of them, the New York Cross Harbor is still around, but not as active as it once was. The NYCHRR will occassionaly use the Bay Ridge LIRR branch in moving freight from it's Bush Terminal yard to various points east.
Although technically not part of the waterfront railways, the book covers the operations of the South Brooklyn Railway, the TA's freight division (On my trip I discovered that SBK's waterside trackage has been severly reduced since the publishing of the book in 1988). Currently, the new Costco warehouse at 39th bet. 2nd and 3rd Avenues has limited the SBK to a single track run down 39th that crosses 3rd to enter the NYCTA "B" line trackage. From there the diesel-driven freight line goes the length of the New Utrect elevated and terminates at the Coney Island yards. Too bad the old South Brooklyn trackage of McDonald Avenue is now only a distant memory.
When I get my photos more organized (and scanned), I will create a website devoted to the subject of Brooklyn's rail freight history. I'm still a die-in-the-wool subway buff, but I've found room for this much neglected facet of rail history.
Later, Doug (aka BMTman)
[Currently, the new Costco warehouse at 39th bet. 2nd and 3rd Avenues has limited the SBK to a single track run down 39th that crosses 3rd to enter the NYCTA "B" line trackage. From there the diesel-driven freight line goes the length of the New Utrect elevated and terminates at the Coney Island yards. Too bad the old South Brooklyn trackage of McDonald Avenue is now only a distant memory.]
Is the SBK line to the waterfront around the Costco store still active? Around a year ago, I checked it out and it didn't look active. While the line directly around the store obviously is new, the part that crossed Second Avenue on the west side of the store looked long out of service - there was an old asphalt spill that blocked one of the rails.
Peter, good point. My impression is that the SBK continues to have running rights over the remaining trackage. Although I am sure that it is now quite rare to see any activity along the route. If the 39th and 2nd Avenue dockside yard was abandoned then I would think that Costco would have taken steps to have the lone track removed or paved over for more auto parking. The SBK track sits sandwiched between the Gowanus Expressway's 39th Street off ramp and the Costco on-premises parking lot. (Their auxillary parking facility is across the street and directly beside the SBK yard with those rotting IRT cars).
BTW, do you get to that area often. I would be interested in hearing what info (photos, stories, etc.) that you have gathered over the years relating to SBK or any of the Bush Terminal/Army Terminal railroads.
cya, Doug
[BTW, do you get to that area often. I would be interested in hearing what info (photos, stories, etc.) that you have gathered over the years relating to SBK or any of the Bush Terminal/Army Terminal railroads.]
I've been in that area only once. It's a bit too far for me to check it out during lunch hour, but I'll try to get down there again soon.
Look closely at the connection to the B line. You can see it from thrid ave or the elevated highway. They installed a new fence just at the mouth created by the 4th Ave overpass the goes right across the mouth of the overpass. Closed and locked and I thought I saw a red signal at that point as well.
I'm saying that it is abandoned but that the TA is locking up there side and not relying on the always open fence at 3rd ave.
I just got back from an inspection of the 36th Street carfloat connection area. This is only my second trip to the area, the previous one having been about 18 months ago. There's quite an accumulation of dirt and other gunk in the slots along the rails where the line crosses 3rd Avenue, particularly on the east side of the avenue. Yet the asphalt spill blocking the 2nd Avenue crossing behind the Costco store is gone. Most notably, there are many more abandoned subway cars in the yard west of 2nd Avenue than there were a year and a half ago. Back then, the nearest cars were far enough away from the fence along 2nd that it was impossible to make out any numbers. Today, cars line the tracks to within maybe 100 feet of the fence. Among others, I noticed R30 #8419 and an R32 since converted to a work train, #3479. Finally, as just noted in the earlier posting, there is an operable signal visible east of 3rd Avenue.
All in all, I'd say that the line doesn't get much use today, but is not abandoned.
To Peter and Lou: thanks for your additional observations.
Yes, I too noticed the secondary gate at the mouth of the tunnel to the 36th Street rail yard (and the "B" line). When I get my photos scanned, one of the shots will be of that area beneath the Gowanus 39th Street northbound off-ramp. The area in my shot has a dilapidated gondola sitting among piles of trash and other crap between the gates of 4th and 3rd Aves.
And thanks to Peter's investigation that confirmed my feelings on the old SBK dockside yard -- hardly in use but NOT YET officially abandoned. (And I doubt that would ever happen since, supposedly, the only route out of the city for NYCTA cars for rebuilding/scrapping is via SBK to the float barges. Am I correct?)
cya, Doug
[And thanks to Peter's investigation that confirmed my feelings on the old SBK dockside yard -- hardly in use but NOT YET officially abandoned. (And I doubt that would ever happen since, supposedly, the only route out of the city for NYCTA cars for rebuilding/scrapping is via SBK to the float barges. Am I correct?)]
I don't believe that the old SBK yard is in fact the only way out for scrapping or rebuilding. As far as I know, the subway still has a rail connection to the NY&A (ex LIRR) within the Linden Iron Shops, and in any event the cars could be hauled away by flatbed truck.
It would be interesting to see how long the abandoned cars now in the SBK yard remain there until taken away for scrapping. Something tells me they're not likely to be going anywhere anytime soon.
I also note from a friend in the Treasury Dept (read IRS) that New York Cross Harbor is in some money troubles with the IRS as well as their creditors and both states. I can't get any further info though and this might have had effect on it's operation(s).
One of their customers was a waste treatment place that shipped half hight sealed containers. Are they still shipping via rail I wonder?
Hi Lou. Thanks for the tip. I was wondering about Cross Harbor. I used to see those blue diesels running along Ave. I when I lived over by E. 32nd Street near the Flatbush/Nostrand Junction area. And when I took my "self-guided tour" of the Bush Terminal area trackage earlier in the month, most of their equipment was collecting mothballs. I saw two of their diesels with their windows boarded up.
To my knowledge gathered that day -- I went from one end of the borough to the other -- is that I found two legitimate customers of the Cross Harbor along the Bay Ridge line: a plastics company on Utica Ave. and Glenwood Rd. in the East Flatbush/Rugby section, and a scrap metal recycling firm in East New York at Junius St. and Pitkin Ave. Other than those two facilities, I know of no other customers on Cross Harbors route (at least on the eastern end of Brooklyn). That's not to say that they may have other companies in the borough of Queens as the route heads north. Hopefully, you'll get other postings that may help out in regards to that waste treatment transfer business. (Illegal perhaps?)
[And when I took my "self-guided tour" of the Bush Terminal area trackage earlier in the month, most of their equipment was collecting mothballs. I saw two of their diesels with their windows boarded up.
To my knowledge gathered that day -- I went from one end of the borough to the other -- is that I found two legitimate customers of the Cross Harbor along the Bay Ridge line: a plastics company on Utica Ave. and Glenwood Rd. in the East Flatbush/Rugby section, and a scrap metal recycling firm in East New York at Junius St. and Pitkin Ave. Other than those two facilities, I know of no other customers on Cross Harbors route (at least on the eastern end of Brooklyn).]
On its Web page, nyrr.com, the Cross Harbor (now called New York Regional Rail) seems to paint a much brighter picture of its business. They claim to have four carfloats in operation, up from two, and mention some new customers. At least as far as the Bay Ridge line segment is concerned, their claims do appear a bit exaggerated. Two customers does not a thriving rail line make.
Note that the Cross Harbor/NYRR might be doing better at the northern end of its territory, serving the Red Hook port facilities. They claim to have two of the carfloats dedicated to that service, carrying mainly cocoa imports.
Actually, I think the Bay Ridge line is still part of MTA - customers along it are served by NY & A. My impression is that the NYCH interchanges little with the NY & A. I think it might take quite a bit longer to get a train up the Bay Ridge line than across the harbor, leading to some very long total transit times. This line seems like a good thing for the city to look at for reducing the trucks on the streets.
I believe almost all of NYCHs customers in Brooklyn are alongside the water. They've also been a perennially shaky company, as far as I can tell...
[Actually, I think the Bay Ridge line is still part of MTA - customers along it are served by NY & A. My impression is that the NYCH interchanges little with the NY & A.]
Right you are. NY&A does run the Bay Ridge line, with the Cross Harbor/NYRR listing it as an interchange with the NY&A rather than one of its own operations.
[I believe almost all of NYCHs customers in Brooklyn are alongside the water. They've also been a perennially shaky company, as far as I can tell...]
Well, Cross Harbor's/NYRR's stock closed today on the NASDAQ Bulletin Board (used for thinly traded stocks) at - this is not a mistake - 17.5 cents per share. Yet they do mention some new intermodal agreements and new equipment.
I should have corrected myself in the past for referring to the Bay Ridge Line has the route of the NYCHRR. I had almost forgotten about the New York Connecting Railway. I recall seeing a train of boxcars being pulled by one of the NYCRR diesels while waiting for an evening rush-hour M-1 at Jamacia station. Their diesels have the same color markings as that of the LIRR with the exception of their line logo being a triangle with small lettering.
Most of the remaining dock railways I'm certain are barely ekking by nowadays, what with the Teamsters running roughshod over the local politicians. It's pathetic, but the United States is one of the few countries in the "western world" that relies more on truck rather than rail freight for long-haul deliveries. And we're supposed to be high-tech and ahead of everyone else!
Wayne & Peter: I took a snapshot of the SBK lot earlier this month (it's so small now that I can hardy call it a yard - sigh!). When I get the roll developed I will then be able to better identify the cars.
But to confirm with Peter, I recall most cars were of the R-27/30 class. Most where sadly, in horrid condition - windows busted out - doors appeared to be missing (or at least non-functioning) - and at least two were in yellow "Maintenance of Way" color schemes. I think one was a former "silver fox". More on this later.
cya, doug
I didn't know that R32s were leaving for the farm!
Anyone out there know of any other R32s which are now in work service?
Was that car solo or did she have a mate with her? Let me know so I can keep my records straight. That leaves 593 R32s still in revenue service, if I have it right...
Also - the "among others"...what kinds were out there?
Thanks
Wayne
[I didn't know that R32s were leaving for the farm!
Anyone out there know of any other R32s which are now in work service? Was that car solo or did she have a mate with her? Let me know so I can keep my records straight. That leaves 593 R32s still in revenue service, if I have it right...
Also - the "among others"...what kinds were out there?]
As far as I could tell, the R32 was solo, but by that point I was so pressed for time I was just getting a quick look and might have missed its mate. I'll have to try again, when I can look at greater length.
Most of the other cars looked like R30s.
It will be a dark day for sure if and when the R-32s are put out to pasture. Let's hope that doesn't happen for a long, long time
Ditto for the slant R-40s.
A stainless steel Brightliner work train?
God, I feel old.
The SBK Is operating through the Parking lot belonging to Costco, though not very frequently yet. There is a fence around the track, but it is still capable of fitting a train through it. I am however not sure if a 75 Foot Subway car will clear the curve with it's overhang
Doug, if you are seriously into NYC area freight send me an EMail.
[A partially restored steam locomotive with the initials BEDT was sitting on a siding. It was used as late as the 1960's on a freight line called the Brooklyn Eastern District Terminal that once dominated the waterfront in the Williamsburg/Greenpoint area.]
I'm curious about that structure and what went on there. Was it a transfer station for grain of some kind, loading the contents of carfloats onto trucks (or vice versa)? It's still fairly accessible, and a fun/wierd place to go: kids running around, a few homeless people encamped here and there, a burnt-out Volkswagen, et cetera. The buildings at the rear of the site still have huge hoppers that loom up above you in the darkness. Also a great accidental graffiti museum featuring an *extremely* rare and classic piece by The Lady Pink.
-Daniel Casey
I have a small web page that I started just recently on the NY&A and other LI RR traffic (http://trainweb.com/locollection/apple.html). I was wondering if anyone be interested in a email forum on "real" rail traffic (LIRR, AMTK, small RRs like the NYRR-NYCHRR, NY&Atl, and CP/CR/NS/CSX lines in our area rather than the subways). I have a spam free host available as well as other possibile well established hosts.
I would like to cover anywhere in the greater Metro area (NY, NJ and CT)
Please email if you are interested! I'd like to have some organization soon!
Alan
Does anyone know of a publicly available source for ridership statistics by station for any or all of the subway, LIRR, MN and NJT?
I've seen numbers thrown around in various news articles from time to time, but I've never seen the source cited.
I just recently heard that NYCT plans to start a new X13 bus running along the X15 route in Manhattan but will operate to East Midtown Manhattan. If anyone has any information in regards to the new X13 coming to Staten Island, please post on subtalk.
Thank you,
Mike
This might help you ,,a bit
X13 E Midtown
Via West
via Madison
X13 Richmondtown
x13 Ar Kill Rd
Richmond Av
X15 Downtown
Loop
X15 Richmondtown
X15 Richmond Av
via Ar Kill
Hey come on now, I remember the X13 but then they renumbered all the buses and the X13 became the X1/4/5/6. So the X13 returns!!!
There was a proposal ,variation of the x15 ,,to upper east side E 57 street,,recently
Steve FDNY
If anyone has NYCT bus electronic readings, can you post it on the subtalk.
Sincerely,
Jihn
If anyone has NYCT bus electronic readings, can you post it on the subtalk.
Sincerely,
John
Contact me at Smokiecat@webtv.net
steve
I can give you them,but only certain routes,there are too many too give you the entire 5 Boros and Subway Shuttles
Again,contact me on Smokiecat@webtv.net
Bus route Q-32 5 Av-Madison Av-Jackson Hts,Formerly M-32,M-15 used to be a MaBSTOA route. Now it is split between the Hudson Pier Depot (MaBSTOA) and the Casey Stengel Depot (TA).Can anyone please tell me if it considered a TA or MaBSTOA route. Thanks in advance for this and previous info.
The dispatchers on the line (Penn Station) and sometimes 82 Street-NB operate on the Manhattanville patch since the Penn Station dispatcher also watches the M4 line. The runs are divided up about 20 (001-020)runs in Stengel, and 18 in Hudson(101-118).
Mike. Thank you for your response. I guess what I am trying to ascertain is if route Q-32 is considered a TA route or a MaBSTOA since it is split between a TA depot and a MaBSTOA depot. Originally it was a MaBSTOA RT M-15 later renumbered to M-32 and then to Q-32.
Redbird,
I'm wondering if NYCT goes as far as to designate routes as OA or TA. I guess before the Q32 (I preferred M32) was split between both Casey Stengel and Hudson - it and all other were OA or TA routes by default. Until recently bus routes generally operated out of one depot. I do remember in the early/mid 1980's that the Q49 route which replaced the J train from Queens Blvd to 168th Street along Jamaica operated out of both ENY and JAM depots.
The TA wants the public believe TA & MABSTOA are unified. After all, there are no duplicate bus route numbers. If a route is transfered between TA & MABSTOA it is the same route #, but if the driver likes to work that particular route and the responsible agency changes, he has to find another route. There is no MetroCard restrictions between TA & MABSTOA properties. Before MetroCard, even Transit Employees were no allowed to ride the other agencies' vehicles for free, but that now is changed. It was done, because everybody looked the other way & it was a courtesy to your fellow Local 100 brother/sister. MABSTOA spouses had a pass to ride MABSTOA buses , but the spouses of the TA workers did not have this perk for TA properties. Employee MetroCards changed all that as all employees had to scan their cards, token clerks were being spied on to make sure MABSTOA drivers had to pay to go to work on the subway! And a MOTORMAN or conductor on his way to work, say on a Bronx bus, had to pay. Payback time! But a problem came in: If a MABSTOA driver had to make a relief on the road somewhere and had to take the subway to get there, he had to pay! So now TA & MABSTOA have Universal Passes & the MABSTOA spouses no longer have that perk.
The only other spilt routes which come to mind are the B82 in Brooklyn (ENY/Ulmer Park) and alledgedly the M4(MV and hale), but ive never seen a Hale bus on the 4.
Until the new pick that started last week, the Q44 was split between Casey Stengel (50 runs) and Jamaica (about 10 runs including the 2 hawks) since September 1995. Last Sunday with the new pick all the runs reverted back to Stengel. I have heard talk that thw 44 will be extended to Fordham Plaza and may be split with KB in the near future, but i'm not sure.
> I have heard talk that thw 44 will be extended to Fordham Plaza and > may be split with KB in the near future, but i'm not sure.
Any idea what the route for such an extension would be?
Mike M wrote
"Until the new pick that started last week, the Q44 was split between Casey Stengel (50 runs) and Jamaica (about 10 runs including the 2 hawks) since September 1995. Last Sunday with the new pick all the runs reverted back to Stengel. I have heard talk that thw 44 will be extended to Fordham Plaza and may be split with KB in the near future, but i'm not sure. "
What were the two "hawks"?
Josh
NYCT employees refer to overnight runs as "Hawks". I had a friend at Green Bus lines and they called their overnight runs "Night Car".
"Hawk" is the term used for the buses than run overnight, Most lines have one bus on them with a 60 minute headway overnight, with some variations. This particular line has two since it's alomost an hour from one end to the other.
The Q-32 has gone through some transformations since 1925.
This was originally route 15 - Jackson Heights Line operated by Fifth Avenue Coach Company (began in 1925). In 1962 it was taken over by MaBSTOA and remained the route 15. This was changed to the M-32 and still later to the current Q-32. This route was never the M-15!
However, there was an M-15. This was operated by the TA along First/Second Avenues. This was the former M-13/M-15 routes operated by the East Side Omnibus Company and taken over the city in 1948.
But to make things more confusing, New York City Omnibus, a Fifth Avenue Coach subsidiary, operated a route 15, 23 Street crosstown.
(At the same time that Fifth Avenue started the route 15 they also began the route 16 Elmhurst Crosstown. This became the #16 under MaBSTOA and later changed to the Q-89 until it was discontinued)
Under Fifth Ave. the 15 (and 16) were based at Northern Blvd. and 76 St. garage. in 1962 they were transferred to 54 St. and later, only the Q32, to Hudson Pier. (The 16 had to go all the way to Queens to start its trips!)
Check out Mr. Joe Brennan's work on this site. Go to table of contents under Usenet Post Index go to History & Reference.
Jorge. Thank you for your response. You are absolutely correct. I never realized that the 15 (Jksn Hts) was not designated M-15,which leads to another question.I have a 1969 Manhattan Bus Map by the MTA which lists all Manhattan routes. The only ones prefixed by an M are the TA routes 1,3,7,11,15 and the 100 series routes. When was the M prefix assigned to all the other routes.
The 100-series routes were formerly Surface Transportation/3d Ave. Railway routes. Prior to the 1946-47 bus conversion, these routes were designated by a mnemonic letter (e.g., Broadway was the "B" car). When buses took over, the routes became M100 Broadway Kingsbridge, M101 Third/Amsterdam. M102 125th St Crosstown (effectively abandoned in favor of the BX29 - now BX15), M103 59th St. Crosstown (no longer operated), M104 Broadway, M105 10th Ave. (abandoned in the late 1950's), and M106 42d St. Crosstown (now M42).
The M prefix appeared on route sign curtains initally around 1972. In 1974 MABSTOA/TA Manhattan routes were officially renumbered to end the duplications found between TA and FACO/NYC Omnibus routes, including duplicates within FACO/NYC Omnibus. It's interesting that at one time there were no less than three Route 15's - 1st and 2nd Aves., Jackson Heights, and 23d St. Crosstown. The 23d Street route crossed the other two within a few blocks of each other. I also remember some route sign curtains that used the designation "QM15" for the 5th/Madison/Jackson Heights route.
Could anyone please tell me which of the Manhattan Routes are still run by the TA and not MaBSTOA.I ask because four of the five historic TA routes ;M-15 1 Av-2Av,M-27 49-50 Sts Xtown and its sister M-50,M-66 66-67 Sts Xtown formerly M-7, and M-31 York Av formerly M-11 are based at the TA Depot at 126 Street. Yet the other former TA route M-22 Madison-Chambers Sts Xtown is based at the MaBSTOA Hudson Pier Depot. Also when the Av B & East Broadway routes were taken over by the city, did they become TA or MaBSTOA routes. Again thanks in advance for your help.
At this time 126th Street depot (TA) operates the M15,M31,M35,M57,M66 and M116. Also Ave B and East Bway routes were taken over by MaBSTOA and assigned to Hudson depot.
Wayne. Thank you for your response. A further point;Rt M-3 49-50 STS Crosstown,later redesignated M-27 now operates out of a MaBSTOA depot.Does this mean that it was transfered from the TA to MaBSTOA.I wolud also like to know if there is still any real difference between the NYCTA and MaBSTOA since both agencies seem to have been blended together. There used to be different pay scales and union contracts.TA buses would carry the logo M-Transit while MaBSTOA buses carried the logo M-Surface.It would be interesting to see how the actual franchises still read. Again thanks.
Others can be more specific than me, but MABSTOA drivers are not Civil Servants while TA drivers are. To combine TA with MABSTOA would cost the TA money and an act by the legislature. For example, TA drivers get more sick days than MABSTOA drivers. And it is easier to fire a MABSTOA driver than a TA driver. Yet TWU Local 100 represents TA 126 St. & Brooklyn depot drivers and Manhattan & Bronx drivers under MABSTOA. Another union represents Queens & Staten island drivers.
Redbird,
TA and MaBSTOA are still very much separate. Internally, that is. Externally, MaBSTOA is supposed to be a thing of the past. So it seems that the only differences that were eliminated were Name/Logo's on the buses. All are now NYCT(A) and no more MaBSTOA. However, behind the scenes TA and MaBSTOA are very much alive. It's a bit tricky now, but years ago there were differences between MaBSTOA and TA buses. I always referred to them as "MaBSTOA" and "TA" buses. Since I grew up in the Bronx I knew a lot about MaBSTOA buses and routes while I struggled with TA buses and routes.
For as long as I can remember buses were always sent to other depots, but generally TA buses wnet to other TA depots and OA buses went to other OA depots. They rarely crossed the line. The first time I noticed TA buses at tan OA depot was around 1980 when several 10XX, 21XX and 21XX GM Fishbowls showed up on Coliseum routes.
There were some orders that went to the TA only - such as the Non A/C Flxibles (5600 and 5700). Even in later years I've never seen these buses operating at MaBSTOA. Also the 1968/9 GM Fishbowls (43/4400) (88/8900) were TA only buses.
TA buses (many or at least most of them) that were delivered in the green paint scheme had gray seats. MaBSTOA buses had green seats. Those with foward facing seats in the rear section were generally red at both TA and OA. This wasn't always the rule, because I vaguely remember seeing an older (TA) fishbowl with all green seats - including the foward facing seats in the rear section of the bus.
Fleet numbering was also different. For an order of buses that went to both TA and OA depots - the TA buses usually had lower numbers Examples: 1975 Flxible 53102-6-1 TA had 7500-7659 OA had 7700-7937.
This practice ended with the delivery of the 1984 GM RTS. These buses were the first to not have MaBSTOA decals.
All of these external differences have gone away and buses now regularly get sent from TA to OA depots and vice-versa but TA and OA are still different.
Wayne
TA - 12 sick days OA - 5 days
TA - run pay for vacation OA - 8 hour pay for vacation
TA - 1 year probation OA - 6 month probation
some other differences that dont come to mind right now........
oh, OA has 'payroll' numbers, TA calls them "pass' numbers
I would like to mention that we(T.A. workers)see things differently as to how Local 100 is run.They believe that the leadership is very effective.(also Brooklyn division T.A. drivers and 126st).Well you know what. I AM READY FOR WAR!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thats right.Iam sick and tired of Local 100 busdrivers voting for ineffective leadership and LOUSY CONTRACTS.STARTING DECEMBER 15 1998, THE BATTLELINES WILL BE DRAWN. SUBWAYS VS.LOCAL 100 BUSES FOR A GOOD CONTRACT!!!!!!!!!!!!
The follwoing routes now run out of 126:
M15,31,35,57,66,116.
The 27 is now out of WestSide.
Dear Subtalk,
My subject is actually Alfred B. Nobel, but I would like to know if in the construction of subways how long it took to make them with dynamite and how much you actually needed to use.
Travis,
This is not an official site of New York City Transit (the organization which now runs the Subways in NY). None of us have anything directly to do with the building of the subways. You should probably contact the Transit Museum's education department and arrange some time in the archives. Their number is 718-243-8601.
-Dave
While riding the B train from Coney Island last summer, I noticed a
Redbird subway car sitting in what appeared to be a playground, that
was about one block off to the right, as you are looking out the front
window, in the vicinity of the Bay Parkway Station. Can anyone tell
me what that car is used for, and if it's a real or fake subway car?
How long has it been there?
It's a real subway car. The playground you saw is outside the former PS 248, which is now a NYC Transit training facility. The car is R-16 6452. The R-16s were never "redbirds," but this car was painted to look like one.
David
I beg to differ - in the late 60s and especially in the early 70s the R16s WERE painted red. I remember these on the "EE" and "GG" lines, and watching the TV footage after the May 20, 1970 crash at Roosevelt Avenue (in which #6304 lost her innards) these cars were plainly red, with grey and light blue interiors. They were soon afterwards painted in the silver/blue paint scheme.
Wayne
The way the R-16s rocked side to side during their final 10 years of service, putting one in a playoground next to a bunch of slides and swings seems appropriate.
So that explains why they were so slow!
I have never ridden on any R16 in which the speed ever exceeded my own estimate of 40 MPH. Even when I got one oddball on the F in 1974, it was noticeably slower than even the R6s which remained. BTW that was #6412 leading the brood on that one-time trip; they were not red; they were silver/grey with the mint-chocolatechip-green interior paint job. The EEs that I rode on back then never went that fast through the 60th Street tunnel either. And the ceilings were peeling and flaking badly. I have made note of the difference between today's "redbird" color scheme (with black roof and silver accents) as opposed to the solid (and brighter) red paint that the R16s sported in the late 60s.
Thanks for the info
Wayne
That chipped paint was a by-product of lack of heat in the cars. I don't remember if I'd ever operated any R16's on any line besides the M, but definitely operated them as a vacation relief conductor on the LL. You were always concerned about the ability of the cars to make it up the hill in the 14th St. tube. Those cars couldn't get out of their own way, probably, as single cars, were too heavy. I remember riding them on the RR when they had the 95 St. stick-on paper signs on the exterior. I'm sure I rode them, but don't recall. I wish I rode one on the F, just for the novelty. I would bet they weren't going much faster than 15 MPH as they were inching up to Queensboro Plaza. BTW: I was working the RR one PM rush in my rookie days with an R27/30. After I cleared the last timer in the tube, I knew I had a problem: the motors didn't pick up and I died coming up the hill adjacent to the Queensboro Bridge. I was scared s...less! I reset, took power and waited!....As long as she didn't roll back....Somehow she limped into Queensboro Plaza. I left the Plaza on the post around the curve going into BeeBee Ave. Going up the hill to Washington Ave., she died again. I discharged there to the complaints of passengers! I guess they weren't too observant! At DITMARS BLVD., the RCI checked the motors & found 3 dead (8 car train). Obviously others were dropping out &/or not coming in with the load of passengers. The train went lite to the junkyard.
I THOUGHT IT WAS DITMAS BLVD.
Ditmars Blvd is in Queens (Astoria Line).
Ditmas Ave is in Brooklyn along the Culver line.
--Mark
Speaking of the 14th St. tube, I used to feel the same way when the BMT standards were still around. Their motor pitch would drop noticeably as they would labor uphill, as low as B below middle C. Had any train come to a stop, I would have half expected the motorman to step out of the cab and walk down the length of the train saying, "OK, everybody out and push!" (I'm being facetious) As if a group of people could really push a train weighing nearly 300 tons uphill without getting electrocuted.
I rode the R-16s only twice, once on a #15 over the Williamsburg Bridge, and once on an M along the Nassau St. line for a couple of stops, so I never had a chance to see just how fast they could go.
The R16, for all of their novel features (curvy straps and handholds; round porthole windows, etc.) were as slow as molasses. Even as locals along the "EE" and "GG" they were slow. The one "F" trip I was on one that I mentioned, this train just loped along at 30 MPH, fully loaded, along the express tracks. I would have hated to have been fuming in the R6 "E" (heat on, fans off no doubt - it was summertime!) which was snuffling along behind it.
Wayne
The R-16 always had that unique look coming into a station -- loping along, each car rocking side to side kind of like the train in that old Bugs Bunny-Yosemite Sam cartoon. Plus the redone slanted side walls to house the door motors made the inside even look strange. If there ever was a subway car built to be a local, the R-16 was it.
The R-16s were heavyweights, quite possibly the heaviest of the 60-foot postwar cars (but still a far cry from the BMT standards), which may explain why they weren't as fast as some other cars. There was one plus: they did return to nice, large, and legible roll signs on their sides. Were they ever illuminated in green, or did that start with the R-27s?
As I've said before, I rode the R-16s only twice and then for no more than a couple of stops, so I can't say I had any bad experiences with them. They did look strange with those slanted door pockets, which 6387 at the Transit Museum still has. It's just too bad they had to die a slow and painful death.
Unfortunately, 6387 is not in original form, and undoing the TA's work would cost a bundle. Speaking of R16s that belong to the Museum, there are two others that haven't been restored yet: 6305 and 6339. Also, now that we are on the issue of PS 248, there may be an additional R16 on the way into the Museum collection. 6452 may be heading back into Coney Island Yard. A friend has informed me that the TA doesn't think that the R16 is sufficient as a training car anymore, so there's discussion that they may replace the car with an R30. 6452 is rather unique being that she's the only car of her kind to be painted into the modern TA scheme of the present time. I'd certainly welcome another R16. Can you imagine a Nostalgia Train of 4 R16s!?!
-Constantine
Nostalgia Train of R-16s eh? Based on feedback here, don't put it on an upgrade :)
But DO put them on the Jamaica El .....
--Mark
To create the proper effect, a nostalga train of R-16 would probably have to run s-l-o-w-l-y along the Broadway line to 60th and Lex, where it would break down and everyone would have to get out and wait for a nostalga train of R-30s following right behind.
...complete with #15 signs.
At least 6387 is sporting its original olive drab paint scheme - or something close to it, anyway. How much bigger, or how different, are the door engines which replaced the original ones?
To my knowledge, no one ever goes inside that R16 at PS 248. It is there to show new employees things we take for granted: basic things like the location of the third rail, the shoes, wheel flanges, etc. Putting an R30 there would probably serve a different function. I don't see 6452 going to the active museum fleet. Those GE cars were disasters. Having a museum fleet of 6300's would be more manageable. BTW: ever notice that large rust spot on 6387?
Yes I saw it (too bad), someone should fix it ***needs more than Bondo***. Her interior ceiling's peely, too [as it should be :o)]
And why NOT use 6452 in the R16 nostalgia train - just don't use it as the operating car.
Wayne (particularly fond of R16s too)
Yup. Well the R16 6387 should have gotten that taken care of before she came back into the Transit Museum. My informed source, who I feel is credible says that the return of the R16 was a rush, rush situation. She had been out for four years just to get truck work (1993-97). Museum personnel knew she was cracked there, but no one did anything about it. They just ordered her back in. The cracks have black tape right now. It needs a few patches here and there.
Mr R40, (WAYNE) 6305 and 6339 are quietly reposing in the salt air of Coney Island Yard. 6305 is in an all silver paint scheme, while 6339 is still in the grafitti grunge silver and blue scheme (at least the last time I was at C.I.). Maybe one day they'll be fixed, but right now they don't have a prayer. Also, the R16s should be signed for the Jamaica El if she ever runs that way.
Car 6398 seen on this site is awaiting a new floor and MINOR body welding. The interior is 95% completed and will be cosmetically accurate by the end of 1999.
For 6398's new do: Make sure those are vinyl floor tiles: light grey marbleized with a dark grey marbleized tile every few squares (one dark grey surrounded by eight light or every other tile, but no dark grey tile should be touching corners). I saw the preliminary photos of him - I like his bottle green paint job. If you have "EE" or "GG" on the roll, that'll do the trick (don't think they were ever on the "CC").
If not, sign him up as "M" or "RR".
BTW are you using red leatherette seats or grey fiberglas benches?
I suppose either one will be accurate.
Can't wait to see him fully restored!
Wayne
Don't forget, if they're the EE, GG or any other mid-1970s line, they have to use the colored roll signs that were unique to the R-16.
The colored side route signs were unique to the R-16s; the multicolored bulkhead route curtains which were installed in the destination slot were also used on the R-32s and R-38s. Heck, find some original number roller curtains and use them. Sign it up as a 15.
At this time 6398 has had the entire floor covering removed. We have sketched out the orginal floor pattern and have photographed it as well. The signs we have available are salvaged from some un rebuilt R32's. These black and white gems only have letter designations but our good friend Anthony Mazzella had reproduction end route signs made with numerical designations. As for the seating reproducing the originals would have been to expensive, so we borrowed a TA idea and we sanded the fiberglass replacements and painted them the original shades of red. As for the rustproblem it was only three small patches. In selecting 6398 from her sisters the most important criteria was #1 good wheels, little hard to change those without 207 street and the drop table. Rust was second (6398 was also tops there ) and the the rest of the general condition was not as important because we were going to have to restore the car any way. Every one is welcome to come up to Kingston and see our work in progress, and check out our R9, Lo-V, Q car and the rest of our extensive collection.
If you ever decide you can do without one of the original R-32 curtains, let me know. Those curtains did not keep the old BMT titles the way the R-27 curtains did, except for the TT/West End sign; the other Southern Division markings had a "Broadway" subscript and nothing else.
Has anyone reproduced the original R-16 side route curtains? There is a side view of an R-16 in Gene Sansone's book with a 14/Broadway Brkln Local sign visible.
Thanks for the information! One of these days I'll venture up there and see how she looks. She is getting a coat of olive drab or charcoal grey paint, no? Interior color would be various shades of grey.
Does it still have the sloped door-mechanism pockets, which were not part of the original scheme of things?
Wayne
the interior is the exact shade of grey and blue as delivered by ACF. The retro fit door operators are still in there because restorng the originalswas way too much hassle, besides most of us remember them that way anyhow.. Exterior is the O.D. green from the factory. Color matching is easycause when we sanded the old layers of paint the original was there to sample for a match. Ask more questions , I love to show off 6398.
Have you been able to match the gold decals that show the unit number inside the car (on the rear of the motorman's cab)? Now THAT nth degree of detailing would be WAY COOL.
Best of luck with your restoration! When she is reborn, I will be there to ride her. If I think of any more questions I'll field them!
Wayne
A few of the side destination roll signs appeared to be original. Can original bulkhead curtains be had?
all of 6398's signs are original. In the archives @ TMNY we have signs from practically every type of car. Currently we have the mylar signs from R32's installed because of their durability and ease of cleaning. The linen signs recovered from R27/30 type cars tended to be yellowed in certain routes and they also tear quite easily, so to preserve them they are not installed. The end signs are handled similarly. R10 destination signs look best because of the different way certain terminals were designated ie: "FOREST HILLS" as opposed to "CONTINENTAL AVE" the original R16 end route signs are still archived but not installled because the "15" routes on every one salvaged were so yellowed and brittle that in several cases simply rolling the sign curtain would tear them. Our friend Anthony(where are you)Mazzella had very expensive linen reproductions of the numerical end roue signs made up a few years ago and sometimes we put them up.
Thanks for the info. By original, I meant the curtains that the cars came with in 1955. That's OK. You're right about canvas - it does become brittle eventually. My roller curtains are also on the brittle side, so I try to keep them signed the same. One thought: could it be that the mechanism itself is binding? The way those mechanisms were made, both supply and take-up sides rotate at the same time and at the same speed. My bulkhead route mechanism gets hung up as you approach the beginning of the curtain, around the BB sign on the standard IND route curtain, and you have to work the crank handle back and forth to sign it up for the A.
we actually have the original dip in water type decals from the TA that a dear old superintendent gave us. unfortunately they were so old that when wetted they disintergrated. I still have a few left that i'm taking to a sign shop to have reproduced. unfortunately again this stuff is really expnsive for three motormen and a conductor to buy all the time. Especially since two of the motormen are MIA most of the time!
I see. And this car is runnable? Can you put it under trolley wire?
Perhaps in the future, you folks can go to work on other rapid transit cars.
As for 6387, she'll need that work again. At least 6398 is getting the attention she needs.
Cheers,
Constantine Steffan
Say, Wayne, have you seen the photo in the R-16 section of one such car (whose number escapes me) coupled to a slant R-40 in Jamaica Yard? Yikes! Needless to say, the slants could blow the doors off the R-16s.
Start a Slant R40 and an R16 side by side (reverse signals cleared) at 71st-Continental Avenue - the Slant R40 makes it to Roosevelt before the R16 gets to Woodhaven. For all their quaint charm (and I do have to give it to them there), the R16s were abysmally slow. They did have numerous features that made them visually appealing, but they were stuck in first gear.
Wayne
I rest my case. Gene Sansone points out in that new book that the GE (I believe) R-16s were a maintenance nightmare, specifically, the controllers. The TA spent a fortune trying to keep those particular cars running. Were those the 6400s?
Yes. They but on the other hand they had the same SCM controllers as the GE R-17s (the ones with the air cooled grids). Somehow they lasted till '89 though and were not a nightmare as far as dead motors were concerned. The GE 16s were banned from the Manhattan Bridge back in the 70s because of stalled trains.
If you had a race between an R-16 starting at Grand Street and it's modern equivalent in terms of speed, the R-68, across the Manhattan Bridge, any guesses on which one (if either) would win.
I would have to say the R68 would win by a snout. The 68s are not as bad as the R16s; at least they do maybe 40 or so on the "D" run down CPW. The R16 would be hard pressed to get to 40, let alone maintain it. The Kawasaki R68A seem to be better than the ANT-Westinghouse R68s. There are two sub-manufacturers for R68- one is Jeumont/Schneider and I forget the other one (the lower numbers:2500, 2600 etc).
Wayne
Speaking of speed does anyone remember the good old Q-Types on the Myrtle Av El in the 1960's. They were lucky to make 35 mph downhill with a good tailwind.
Yes I do! Those old clunkers were the slowest of all. I rode them several times between 1966 and 1969 (including Oct.3, 1969, the last night they ran). I never remember them going any faster than say 25 MPH. And a couple of times I was on them they had trouble starting from a station stop. They would balk and hesitate and the lite bulbs inside them would blink on and off.
Wayne
What hurt the Qs was the fact that they were fitted with Composite trucks when they were transferred to the 3rd Ave. el for better weight distribution. Apparently, the motors on those trucks didn't have as much oomph as the motors on the original trucks. I've heard stories that the motorman would cut power halfway between stations and coast the rest of the way. Remember Denny Doyle's comment in the original Pelham 1-2-3? "It's the train; she bucks all the time, especially in that switching position. She's a dog."
As for the drag race across the Manhattan Bridge between an R-68 and an R-16, I'd say the R-68 would win by default. Chances are the R-16 wouldn't make it over the bridge. Everybody out and push!
BTW, I rode a D train of R-68s up CPW in October, and I don't think it got over 30 mph. It just loped along. Same thing in the Bronx. Some express! Even the R-38s I rode on the A were hard pressed to hit 40 (38, tops). I'll bet the good old slant R-40s could easily hit 40 and then some on that stretch. Of course, we all know what the R-10s could do. 50 easily.
One thing you guys seem to be forgetting is that all equipment was modified after the Layton Gibson train accident on the Willie B. Because the cars field shunt coils are at 100% field strength the 115 H.P. traction motors are practically dropping out at 100 amps at 25 MPH. The R-68s I broke in on when new easily topped 50 MPH on level, tangent track. Although the R-16s were the heavyest in their class to their dying days, with the same 100 hp traction motors as the R-10s, getting one on the BMT J and M center track to at least 45 was no problem provided it was a westinghouse propulsion unit. Modern technology has come a long way since the "Q"s as newer cars are weighed down with air-conditioning and other features. Look at the R-38s before their overhauls...ceiling fans and 100 H.P. motors, they could not sustain 55 like they could when we tested them arriving from M&K 14,000 ponds heavier. I personally think the R-10s were best, providing the RCIs at Pitkin showed up and worked.
Nothing could top the R-10s in their day. IMHO, slowing the trains down was an overreaction. CPW is not the same as the bridge. The signals had something to do with that accident on the Willy B; I remember reading that those signals were more in tune with the acceleration and braking rates of the BMT standards and not the modern equipment.
I think the Q cars stopped on straight air only. No B2--No electric brake, so you wouldn't want to go too fast with passengers.
If you like, I know just the person to ask about that, besides we've got one rigt here at the Trollry Museum of NY.
I don't think electric-assist would have been important to the ever cost worried BMT in the the depression era because they ran such short consists, and air can propogate pretty fast in a three car train.
Bill. Sometimes the Q's did not stop. There was one time back in the mid-sixties when a Q rammed the SIRT MU being used as a yard office in the Fresh Pond Yard. I believe it knocked the SIRT clear down into the LIRR Montauk Branch. The Q made of had wooden construction but it seemed like the SIRT got the worse of it.
Regards,Redbird.
I don't think that incident was the "fault" of the Q car. This is what happened: If you look at the exit of Fresh Pond Yard, you will see a very short non electrified spur track ending in a bumper block. There, many years ago, sat that ex-SIRT MU car. When a train leaves Metro or no train is entering /leaving the yard the iron is lined up for a move to the block. On that day, a train of Q cars which could not be operated from the head end was being flagged out of the yard. There was a breakdown of flagging communication because when the head car arrived at the homeball leaving the yard, the train kept going straight rail because it didn't have the signal/switch to leave the yard and that yard office car was in the "way". Hence, the crash. Happy Holidays to all!
>I think the Q cars stopped on straight air only. No B2--No electric >brake, so you wouldn't want to
>go too fast with passengers
From the floor down, the Q types remained the 1200s & 1400s BUs from which they were converted. Air brake equipment was Westinghouse
Air Brake schedule AML. This predated the AMUE air brake equipment
found on the perhaps more familiar pre-war cars such as the LoV,
AB std, D types and R1-9. The 'E' stands for "electric brake".
It should not be confused with dynamic braking. None of these cars
had that. All of these systems are not "straight air" -- they are
"westinghouse automatic air brake", commonly called "train air"
or "reduction" brakes.
The electric brake feature on train air systems serves the same role
as it does on SMEE -- to quicken the propagation of the motorman's
command back through the train. Without electric brake, a change
in the brake pipe pressure would take a few seconds to go from the
motorman's valve all the way to the back of a long train. To offset
this problem, schedule AML braking used an M-19 traction brake valve
with an equalizing piston which smoothes out the brake pipe reduction.
It takes about 6 seconds to make a full service reduction (20 lbs)
on this equipment. So, to get a feel for how this impacts operation,
imagine your nice, responsive SMEE brake valve (ME42, 42B, 43,
take your pick) was filled with molasses. You want to slam the
valve from release straight back to full service, but it takes you
6 seconds to do so. In other words, you have to make an appointment
to stop.
The Qs were certainly slower than the R16s, at least if one compares
against a train of R16s with no dead motors. Since those were
extremely rare.......
On the one hand, NYC Transit applauds itself on having reduced the red flag areas (bad track, 10mph max speed limit) from 500+ in the '80s to zero now, enabling increased speeds.
On the other hand, all rolling stock was retrofitted to be unable to achieve desired, faster speeds because of the Willy B accident.
Would the installation of wheel detectors in these "accident prone" areas like Union Square or the Willy B be sufficient to prevent accidents of the type that occurred, without having to modify the entire fleet to have slower speeds?
I mean, even Connecticut raised their speed limit to 65 in the eastern part of the state :)
--Mark
As I said before, IMHO, slowing the trains down was an overreaction. As far as I know, they didn't slow any trains down after the Malbone St. wreck. (I could be wrong.) Of course, if braking abilities have been compromised, there would be justification. Perhaps if there were some means of limiting voltage or current to specific blocks at those areas, kind of what happens when a model train hits a section of loose fitting or dirty track and slows down due to voltage drop. Or installing timing signals in such locations.
P. S. You mean speed limits are 65 in eastern Connecticut? The most I ever saw anywhere was 60 just before the Arab oil embargo in 1973-74. Outside of Denver, speed limits are 75 on I-25, I-70 eastboun, and I-76 eastbound.
When something adverse happens in life, we take ACTION to prevent it from happening again. The TA philosophy: all too often a REACTION. Again, in the case of the WILLYB incident, no signal modifications were ever made in the wreck area.
> P. S. You mean speed limits are 65 in eastern Connecticut?
Yes. On I-95 just east of Branford, for example, the speed limit goes from 55 to 65 until the junction w/ I-395, then it's 55 until the New London Bridge, then it's 65 again to the Rhode Island border.
--Mark
That explains everything. I usually pick up I-95 at New Haven where I-91 joins it, and head west (south) to New York. I like the fact that it's free now. My father remembers one toll booth in particular: at the Connecticut River. On this particular Sunday back in 1967, traffic was backed up at that particular barrier, all for a ten-cent toll.
Constantine when can I start repainting their interiors and fixing up their signs? I rode in #6339 on February 16, 1970. I'm so glad to hear she's still around! If they get the four together I'll be the first in line to get tickets. Let's sign 'em up as "EE" and have ourselves a nice ride.
Too bad there aren't many 6400 series left though.
Wayne
Gee, that's about the same speed as the R-68s manage today. Too bad that E train of R-6s couldn't just switch over to the local track and blow past that F train at a feverish pitch. And to think that 50 R-16s spent time on the A line back in the 50s. I wonder how they managed on the jaunt up CPW back then. Supposedly, the R-16s were even intermixed with R-10s occasionally. OI VEY!!!!
It's not in a playground. It's in a school yard but the TA runs the school for ADULTS to play on this car .
Matter of fact due to crowding in this school district, the Board of Ed wants the school back and the TA won't give it up...
Yes, and no.
The R-16s were indeed painted red in the late 1960s -- FIRE ENGINE red. The cars were never painted in "redbird" colors: maroon with a silver roof and black trim (also known as "silverfox").
David
The original Redbirds were of course the R-29's with that brilliant Tartar Red paint scheme.They were followed by the mainline R-33's and R-36's which also had the same scheme.The Flushing R-33's and R-36's (Picture Windows) had a Blue and White paint job and were known as Bluebirds. Starting about the middle 1960's I think a red paint scheme was applied to many of the other R-types on both the IRT and BMT. I seem to recall that this was a duller red and that the car skirts were painted black. I don't believe this scheme was applied to all the cars before MTA Silver and Blue was used. When the first of the GOH IRT cars were placed in service they had the Red,Silver and Black scheme they still carry. They were called Silver Foxes but I don't belive this name ever received wide usage.
When the R16's & R17's were painted RED in 1967 the interiors were never painted. It was not until 4/70, when they started painting the R17's silver / blue stripe they painted the interiors that deadful shade of green, with the doors a light shade of gray.
I remember seeing and riding red R-27/30s during the late 60s. Their interiors still looked the same as the one at the Transit Museum. The doors had that purplish-blue interior shade which was OK, but not as appealing as the light blue applied to the door interiors of the R-32s, R-36s, R-38s, R-40s, and R-42s. Of course, nothing will ever compare to the dark blue door exteriors on the R-32s when they were new...
In the Ny Post for Sunday December 13 on page 7 is about the E-Z passes. In the article it shows a few names who work for or used to work for the MTA and get E-Z passes for life. It also has names who are Public Servants who get E-Z passes for life. Your thoughts would be most welcome on this material.
Charlie Muller.
MTA stands for Money Thrown Away pure and simple. Once again our overbloated managerial staff put the TA surplus to good use. Instead of hiring new train crews to staff the new service changes they plan for the oncoming B division pick they arranged THEIR next ride home in advance. I guess they figured all the tollkeepers that were forced to say "Thank You" to passing motorists a few months ago should be checked on periodically so naturally the beakies should be armed with an EZ Pass account tags. The overpaid Joe Hoffman and Nat Ford were probably the first to get them.
Are these free EZ passes good on the NYS thruway? PA crossings? What about when other authorities open EZ passes on their roads? I wondewr how other groups feel about having these freebies on their roads.
I you really want to get mad, how about all those free parking spaces in Manhattan. Who is against tolling the East River Bridges? The CEOs could afford the tolls, and would welcome less traffic. Everyone living in Manhattan, or traveling there by subway, would benefit from less pollution. But those with free parking are the politically powerful.
Cops even when off duty can park wherever they want anytime with that Police ID card they place in the windshield. Yes, it's not right, but other cops won't ticket out of courtesy to their brother cops. As a transit worker I have no right to park in a bus stop and wouldn't. But they can & get away with it. Case in point: I work by the Caldor Middle Village Store. Cops park in front of the bus stop all the time. Big parking lot upstairs. Others get ticket, not them!
I doubt if those guys will get one. It is really for past & present MTA board members, politicians and assorted VIP's. I hope some newspaper gets the names of those with the free EZ passes under the terms of the Freedom Of Information Act for publication. BTW: I am an infrequent user of MTA Bridges & Tunnels, so I wouldn't give the MTA the satisfaction of letting them hold my money while I make no interest on it (while they do) for an extended period of time. With this and the MetroCards, MTA is getting a lot of money upfront from people before that person uses the service (ride the subway/bus or cross the bridge/tunnel). What I object to is people like myself being penalised for NOT having the EZ Pass. Case in point: last August, about 1:30 AM on a Sunday, after making great time from Middletown with a car load of young ones, I waited 20 minutes just to pay the toll on the Triboro Bridge. Only 2 manned booths were open.
I am looking to buy one or more of those bullseye Archer Avenue Extension Commerative Tokens.
I was wondering if anybody was interested in making a deal or could anyone point me in the right direction?
Thanks!
Make an offer, I have several
I'm jealous! I didn't get one. And I operated the first train (a J) into that terminal!
I beat you, I rode a track dolly down from 121 St.
Do you want/need any CDTA (The transit authority in Albany) tokens?
Steve-
I sent you e-mail through your own account. Did you receive it or should I resend?
--Adam
I got it and you should have your answer waiting
I wish to publically say, I apologize for sounding so harsh in my previous post, but living in NYC and enviorns, the buck shrinks mightly quickly. This is a strange place where the hourly worker, if he/she get enough overtime, can make more than his boss!
Not harsh at all Bill and I understand where you are coming from. The person I was referring to actually parked a van in jamaica Yard and virtually lived there for a year. He went out in 1993 or 1994 with $105,000. Unfortunately, he passed away before he saw a full pension check. He earned every penny and I'm sorry he didn't live to collect. However, there are abuses in the system, like the bus maintainer who was killed last year. He died when a bus dropped and crushed him. It was found later that he was slashing air bag suspensions to create overtime.
As for the 2nd part of your post, you, again are absolutely correct. Hourlies can and do earn more than some managers. However, good managers manage OT so this does not happen. Finally, knowing what your hourly rate is, I doubt that I could push a train that many hours to earn as much as I currently earn in my position. If you can, safely, you deserve the $$$$$$$.
This is not done too often anymore, but I do remember in times past you would find a motorman who would actually hang out at a terminal or yard waiting for overtime to happen. There was actually a motorman who was told to stop calling for o/t because he was making too much money. He devised a plan: he would call up for o/t but use somebody elses name & pass # for o/t. Naturally, that guy never showed up and alas! he was there to get the job. Now, the guy who was inked to do the job got written up! When they started to see who always got an RDO in this manner, the pattern was established that the same guy would always just happen to be there! And, despite all the money this guy made, he would steal peoples' lunches & drinks at Stillwell Ave. crewroom. Well, one day, he drank out of somebodys' Nestles Quick container one time too often. The "owner" mixed a concoction of milk & ExLax! He was out sick for a week and that was the end of his career stealing lunches!
Yeah, but did it also cure his penchant for "happening to be there" for overtime? Talk about a freeloader! That's pretty good - milk and Ex-Lax. Rather than confronting the guy, give him a taste of his own medicine, so to speak. Or, in another manner of speaking, the guy took the bait and fell for it, hook, line, and stinker. I know a guy who was told that Ex-Lax was just the same as Baker's Chocolate, and, well, I think I'll just leave it at that.
[This is a strange place where the hourly worker, if he/she get enough overtime, can make more than his boss!]
That's not by any means unique to the Transit Authority or to the New York area.
That is the truth. We had a bus operator on the MTA (here) that actually earned more that the Admistrator (who earned $125,000/yr for the "privledge" of going before the Maryland General Assembly every year to justify the agency's budget, in addition to running the agency). However he did not have musch of a social or family life!
Several interesting posts regarding this topic, here in England, following the Clapham railway Accident in December 1988, a new set of guidelines where introduced known as the "Hidden 18" recomendations
after the Judge Sir Anthony Hidden QC who chaired the public inquiry into the crash. Without going to deep into that crash, it was basically caused by a signal maintainer who had worked for months on end without a day off and long shifts (12 hours+) who failed to secure a disconnected wire correctly causing a short circuit which led to the fatefull day when a signal did not return to danger even though the block section ahead was occupied.
To overcome this problem the Hidden report set 18 recomendations which
for operating staff (drivers/guards/conductors) led to the following:
1) Not more than 72 hours to be worked in total for each week
2) Not more than 13 days consecutive to be worked
3) A minimum of 12 hours break between shifts.
:
Being employed for the last few years as a Duty Crew Manager, managing
overtime is a real problem. Overtime even in the best diagrammed services is still required usually to cover for sickness,train failure or to "recover" the service following disruption (points failure/adverse weather/Mishap etc etc).
These rules regarding hours are enforced by regular audit and patterns
on who is working the most are compared with incidents of that particular staff member to see if any pattens develop.
Does the NYCTA have any such hour regulations (either within its own
rules or issued by the Federal Authorities??).
The opportunity to earn large ammounts is their,no doubt about that, but at what price?? The worst case I have ever seen is a driver living in a camper van (motorhome) in the depot car park, before he was moved on by myself and the depot "suits" !!!!!!
regards
Rob :^)
The TA, for as long as I can remember, always mandated 8 hours minimum between tours. After the Williamsburg Bridge 'incident', even more stringent restrictions were put on train crews. I'm not sure exactly what those restrictions are but I'm sure Bill can.....
You used to be able to work both your RDO's but no more. If you have a picked run, from one day to the next you must have 10 hours off in between. This is because some junior people who work AM's are sometimes stuck with a late AM Sunday job and an early AM Monday job. This is used to take into account possible late clearsas well. If you are turned close to your ending point on your last trip, you can call for a change of assignment for your next days' job if you will have less than 8 hours off. Finally, if you have finished at your regular time on your last day of work, and call to work an RDO on your first day off, you must have 9 hours off to allow for traveling from your house to your work location.
Correction overtime hounds. TA bulletins state you must have 8 hours off between tours at ALL times. Extra extra list employees SHOULD have twelve hours off between tours as per 1994 contract. The crew office will not assign RDOS that will conflict with picked jobs. There are no 9 or 10 hour windows; if I work a double tour which does happen occasionally, you will have 8 hours off before work the next day, except storm emergencies.
Of course the Crew Office won't assign an RDO that conflicts with your regular job! I'm just reporting what the crew office tells the MOTORMEN & Conductors! When we pick, that 10 hour window you deny is printed on the Memo. Finally, the 12 hour rule for Extra- Extra people is constantly violated for "the good of the service".
This mornings Monday morning headend ride on a Slant 40 Q (North Motor 4181) was refreshing on top of the great football weekend.
Coming into Newkirk Ave, some "teens" decided to play chicken with this stick of 10 Slant40's. They left their leg sticking out over the right of way from the platform to see who would keep it there the longest (I'm guessing at this from my vantage point of the front storm door on the said arriving Q).
Platforming without incidient the train operator opened her door and called the wayward youth up front from the back of the car. She said
"Keep on doing that, you have my permision, I get 5 days off with full pay if I hit you. I'm off to the islands and your off to the hospital hopefully only missing your leg. Matter of fact tommorrow I might just speed up when I see you doing that, I do need those free days off".
Good shocked look on the kids face before the mask of "hey now I'm tough, this chick don't know what she's saying look" comes over him and he saunters away.
I've got to hand it to all train operators, TA, LIRR or whatever. I can't imaginge anything worse than a jumper and living with that, well except these dump kids that hang body parts over the tracks (sit on the ledge of the platform until the last minute) that's worse than a someone who wants to end it all.
In my youth(my far, far, FAR away teenage days) I was propositioned to play chicken with an oncoming train(the El) a few times and once actually sat at the edge of the platform but got right back up a second later.
In my case, peer pressure, but then common sense kicked in. Don't people(i.e. kids) realize that if a train speeds into a station with you sticking your foot in front of it, it would be the same thing as when you see a car drive thorugh the arm at the entrance to a parking lot. Your leg getting broken off is the least that could happen.
What ever happened to common sense?
Common sense has been legislated out of existence, IMHO. Then again, many kids think they're invincible, or just don't think, period.
I too sometimes have to put these hoodlums. They think we won't say anything. And their own parents are the first to complain about other kids doing that! The fact is, she wouldn't get 5 days off for cutting a leg off! You get 3 days off if you kill 'em! BTW I am making light of this, but truthfully, you really don't want to kill anybody as it will be on your conscience for the rest of your life, but you do want to scare the kids into thinking they are not immortal & our trains are not toys.
I seen many buses that look like RTS except they are newer and have the tailpipe on the roof. Looks cool. They also have LED signs and LED taillights and turn signals. Why are the city still running
RTS and not all Orions.
Speaking of Orions, why are their engines so much louder then the RTS? Is RTS short for something?
All NYCT RTS's purchased since 1994 have their tailpipes on the roof. These RTS's and Orions (purchased since 1994) have the same Detroit Diesel Series 50 4-cylinder diesel engines. This engine is very powerful and fuel efficient but it's also noisy. RTS's and Orions purchased prior to 1994 had Detroit Diesel 6V-92TA 6-cylinder engines.
When the RTS was introduced in 1977 - GM called it the RTS II-01. It sttod for Rapid Transit Series. The II indicated two axles. This was there because the Federal Transbus which never happened was a three-axle model. GM never did drop the II designation. The 01 is the series. The original slope-back RTS's were 01 and 03 series. There was never an 02 series. The first square back RTS's in 1981 were 04 series. 06 series was introduced in 1986 just before GM sold the RTS line to TMC. NovaBUS now owns the RTS's line and it still produces the 06 series which represents most RTS purchases. There is an 08 model that has a flatter front end, wider front door and the wheelchair lift is installed in the front door. I know that CTA (Chicago) has RTS II-08 series buses.
If I recall, the 08 series was really made for CTA since they had the requirement of the wheelchair lifts on the front of the buses like their Flxibles. These buses were also made a little narrower to safely maneuver around their El system.
Currently, there are only 4 manufacturers approved by the TA to build buses for it, and then, only 1 model from each (with variations)
This is due to the stringiant rules they imposed on themselves after the Grumman Flxible disaster of the early 80's. Each manufacturer submits each model for testing and evaluation under normal service conditions. Recommendations and changes are made. The bus is then (hopefully) accepted for use by the transit authority. Until 1992, the only design approved was the RTS II, by GMC and the successive corporations that purchased the bus manufacturing business.
Competitive bidding allows competion now in the manufacture of buses for the city and the TA, which is why there are now 4 +1 experimental(soon 5) types of buses to be roaming the streets.
MCI 102DL3 (Express Service from Staten Island)
RTS II-03/04/06 (All Services)
Orion V (All Services, also CNG Powered versions)
New Flyer D60 (Articulated Local)
Orion VI (Hybrid Diesel/Electric experimental)
Soon to be joined by
New Flyer x40LF (low floor 40' bus, possibly CNG powered)
-Hank
It's interesting that LI Bus is buying the Gillig Phantom, a full size bus, but the TA isn't AND it's not even on the biders list. Is that because Gillig doesn't want the business ?
Mr t__:^)
Not that they don't want the business, just not with the T.A. Ever notice the smart contractors, such as Kawasaki only deliver a 2 to 4 hundred car order? Imagine companies such as Pullman Standard, or Grumman delivering mass quantities of goods with warranties that will drive anybody bankrupt to an organization that erradicated half of American subway car builders. Sumitomo now only rebuilds freight equipment and it is likely that M&K will never redo subway cars after TAs finnegling with warranty repairs. It is more apparent now then before that to do successful business with a state agency, you must do as little as possible. Kawasaki says in business as long as they have because Westinghouse-Amrail and BOMBadier built the bulk of previous orders.
A few years ago I heard (from a NYCTA employee) that NYCTA was interested in buying MCI (Now Nova)Classics, but MCI wasn't interested .
No, because MCI was the same company as TMC which made the RTS's. The TA just wanted to stick with RTS's, and from what I heard, the rear wheelchair lift may have been one of the reasons. (In Classics, they were only in the front). I wish they had gotten Classics. I also heard that when Nova took over, they only wanted to build Classics and discontinue RTS, but both NYCT and NJT insisted on RTS.
Speaking of buses, does anyone know the history of Flxible before Grumman bought it? I heard that the company only starting making buses around 1970. I don't think I saw any of their buses in New York before that. Also, is it true that company got out of the bus business about two or three years ago?
The TA bought their first group of Flxibles back in 1965, which I beleive were the 5600-5700 series. No air conditioning and a BIG rear window, while the box over the rear exit door with the little button for the bell always looked like it was going to fall apart. As far as I know none of those buses ever were used on the TA routes in Manhattan.
The 5600/5700 Flxibles never did come to any MaBSTOA depots. I don't know when Grumman acquired Flxible. Flxible had been building buses at least since the 1950's in fact Flxible used to build intercity buses.
Started as the Flxible Side Car co. I can remember seeing some of their buses at Kennedy Airport in the mid 60's. They had no rear window at all, really strange looking. (I guess you could drink them pretty.)
The 5600-5700 series Flxibles ran virtually their entire careers in Queens (Flushing and Jamaica depots). They were not the first TA Flxes, though. Those were the 1965 vintage 5001-5165 series, which ran most their careers in Brooklyn (Flatbush and Ulmer Park Depots) and later on could be found on Staten Island. None of these two series ever ran out of MABSTOA garages. MABSTOA Flxes first appeared in 1970 (4601-4728) on Bronx routes out of Colesium and West Farms. Later on, of course, many series of Flxes ran out of all MABSTOA garages - the 1974 7300-7400s, the 1976 7700-7800s, and the 1978 9000s.
Grumman acquired Flxible in the late 1970s, just in time to build the ill-fated 870 model.
The intercity Flxibles that two posts allude to were actually a strange looking bus that many airport bus providers used, not just in NYC. The windowless rear area, which was round-shaped, had baggage storage space.
What I remember is the sloped rear bumper-I always thought they did it to discourage riding on the back of the bus. I also recall the "dash" lights were to the left of the driver between the driver's side window and the windshield.
Memphis, TN had 16(700-715) of these and they were hated by the drivers. One of these number 700 was very different with split windows. MATA (Memphis Area Transit Authority) rewrote the specs after that to ensure only GM bus purchases. The Flxibles were finally scrapped. Oddly MATA later bough about 60 AMC buses which were also junk and later scrapped. As of 1997 theye still ahd 100% GM (or their heirs) fleet.
The Memphis Flxibles were NOT scrapped, but were sold to the Southern California Rapid Transit District around the 1977-1978 energy crisis. I believe that #700 became #5735 in Los Angeles. As LA had a large fleet of similar Flxibles, the buses lasted into the mid 1980s when LA's 1000+ bus fleet of RTS's was delivered.
The intercity models were the Clippers, from the '40's and '50's. Some of the Trailways companies had them. You can see them on the Twilight Zone episode where a woman, and then a man see themselves at a bus station.(She sees herself taking off on the Flxy Clipper. There was also a big Flxible coach that was Trailways' answer to the Scenicruiser.
Flxible originally came out of Twin Coach, I believe. The Bus fan magazines have alot of infrmation on this stuff.
Flxible bought the Twin Coach city bus business about 1953. Prior to that, they were a relatively small intercity coach manufacturer building the 25-33 passenger Clipper model. The Flxible intercity coaches used by Trailways came in the mid-fifties and lasted until about 1970. By that time Flxible was a large manufacturer in the transit market and remained so until sold to Rohr industries and then Grumman. The Flxi ble intercity coach tools and dies were sold to Mexico and became the basis for the Dina coach; Flxible style buses were still being built into the early nineties.
Weren't the 9000 Flxibles were the ones with the first `special railings' for the disabled, which ran down the middle of the bus, along with the split post in the middle with multiple handles? I remember the center bar was such a disaster during rush hour on the M-15 that they lasted only about a year.
No, It wasn't the 9000's - it was the 1975 Flxible (7500-7659,7700-7937). I never did like those 7000's Unlike the lower 7000.
That's not quite it. Any purchaser wants the best possible warranty. The major problems that Pullman Standard and St. Louis car ran into were that the entire car was new. 75' Length, Rockwell Trucks on the R46, trainline electronic systems, cab signals were all new to the system, and untested. And each problem led to further problems.
St. Louis was in trouble before the R44 order as was Pullman. In the late 60's-early 70's era that these cars were ordered and built, every major railroad in the northeast was bankrupt. The passenger train, its cars core to the business, was a dying breed. No RR was buying new products, save the municipal authorities, where there were often problems of payment and in the case of the NYCTA, the near-bankruptcy of the municipality it served.
Kawasaki stays in business because railcars are not its core business. They started by manufacturing planes, steel, ships, etc.
Bombardier is also a super-corporation, building everything from Jet-Skis to subway cars to Helicopters to the TGV. They have the resources necessary to support a large manufacturing program and warranty service to a consumer of their products.
As for MK, they also made some bad judgement on business, and were the cause of their own problems.
-Hank
MARTA in Atlanta has a number of these low floor new flyers. The odd feature is the raised rear portion of the bus (up 1 or 2 steps after th rear door).Atlanta's are CNG and feature a retarded to slow them down.
...a retarded what?
Sorry for the typo- it should have read "retarder" (slows the bus down when it goes down hill) A dask warning light comes on and the bus slows.
i think you mean a retarder even though some of my colleages may fit the description of that other word.
Speaking of new buses, Yukon is still parking MCIs on the street, and the Edgewater lot is now apparently full of RTS.
-Hank
There are two different widths of RTS bus. I remember noticing when they first came out that the ones run by Command looked narrower than the MTA's. Now I have read that there are 96" and 102" wide versions, both of which are run in Boston--the 8000 series are 96" wide with 6 cyl Detroit Diesels, and the 0xxx series are 102" wide with series 50 4 bangers. Why the difference? Only 6" can't make a bus a whole heck of a lot more maneuverable, can it?
Interesting note: #300 is a training bus and has alloy wheel rims.
In the U.S. all buses are either 96 or 102 inches wide. Many agencies seem to prefer to 102's, but some wi;; order 96's for special reasons. I believe SEPTA purchases 96 inch wide buses because many Philadelphia streets are narrow. CTA (Chicago) uses 102, except for a few for a route that runs under the el. In NYC area NYCT deals only in 102's. An exception is when NYCTA bought the Grumman 870's - all but a few (#55X) for Staten Island expresses were 102's. These SI expresses also had 8-cylinder engines. Usually 35 foot buses are 96's also, but there have been some 35 foot 102's also. Until the 1980's intercity buses in the U.S. were only 96 inches wide. I heard that until the 1980's many states would not permit a 102 inch intercity buses. Both MCI and Eagle had experimental 102's in the late 1960's. Today most intercity buses are 102's. In NYC Command and QSC 1985 & 1986 RTS were 96's. Green Bus Lines and Jamaica Buses also have a few 96 inch wide RTS. Also all NYCT buses purchased since 1994 have the DD series 50 4-cylinder engine.
Speaking of Alloy rims, why dont any of the new buses that the MTA purchased ('98-'99) have the alloy wheels that they used to have ('94-'97)?
An expensive option is the reason I heard
I heard problems braking especially in inclement weather.A few older RTS buses already have them:3160 in Ulmer Park, and 2 8100s in E.N.Y depot. BTW, 9600 at Fresh Pond never had Aluminum wheels.
Yes, alloy rims make the bus lighter and tougher to handle. In the last few years, we have been lucky with the lack of snow/ice. If we have a wet winter...look out! The 8100's in ENY, which were the experimental/prototypes, and the last time I saw them, still have the alloy rims are: 8102 & 8127.
Just thinking that it's snowing and I'm nowhere near the route of the Bx1/Bx2 to see how those artics (sic) handles snow and ice on a hill...
-Hank
Just by listening to the TA trunked radio, there are many many stuck buses on the island and south brroklyn and south queens.
Thurs. 12/24 will be an interesting day in the Dept. of Buses. Since we haven't had appreciable snow for the last 2 winters, alloy wheels, and the large number of new drivers hired within the last 2 years, it should be an interesting day statistically!
Those artics on the BX1/BX2 will probably be OK. The steep hill on Fordham Rd between Webster and Valentine Aves may prenent a challenge for the artics on the BX12. The hills on W Fordham (Bx12) and W Kinsgbridge (Bx9) can be a concern too - plus amny buses deadheading to/from Kingsbridge Depot travel these roads.
RTS stands for "Rolling Ton of Scrap" because its average life span turned out to be 12 years. 3600 series buses are being stripped on the abandoned conrail tracks at 225 Street adjacent to the southbound I-87 expressway. Unlike the reliable TDH 5306 "BLITZ" buses, some of which were 8000s built in 1968 these RTS buses are being recycled before they are paid for.
these buses were only meant to last twelve years. nyct is still running some 1981-1982 models on staten island though.
On the old Putnam division tracks? When did they start scrapping stuff there? Typically they stored maintenance equipment there.
Continuing with my enamoration of the Times Square station, I was wondering if anyone here knows of any legal limitation of the depth of a subway station(i.e. fire codes, earhquake or terrorist safety, emergency, etc) for subway systems.
No one would build a station 300 feet underground, but could they if they wanted to, legally?
Also, are all the really deep stations accessed by elevator(168th, Roosevelt Island, Clark St)?
They do have elevators. Roosevelt Island also has escalators- i think 3 very very long ones with landings in between. Court Street N/R has elevatoers at the Clinton St end and escalators from the bmt lower mezzanine to teh IRT mezzanine.
Deep tunnelling has the advantage of not disrupting street traffic; however, it necessitates installing escalators or even elevators. I understand that London's deep tube lines were used as bomb shelters during WWII. Moscow's Metro lines are pretty deep as well; one station had the world's longest escalator.
From a station agent's viewpoint: while they may be nice from surface traffic standpoint--dont tear up the street, deep stations are logistic nightmares when the elevators stop. Last week I was at Clark street and one elevator quit--I had a backup of people even to the piont where some used the emergency stairs. Also recently, I heard on the scanner that all were out and police cleared the station and trains did not stop. I also recall the recent replacement at 168 on the #1 where trains were bypassing the station for 6 months. Escalators are prone to breakdowns and malcontents playing with the stop buttons. Have you ever hoofed up to Smith and Ninth from the street? I worked that station and did just that--rough! Alot of senior citizens use the station and I fielded numerous compliants about 2 or 3 of the 4 elevators being out. Even after you climb the two long escalators, you still have two sets of stairs before reaching the platform. NYCT is installing a third escalator for each level (Street to intermediate, intermediate to crossunder)and according to the official NYCT web site, they will replace the other escalators.
Another factor- if a station ever has to be cleared in a hurry the deep stations are a nightmare and I hope I am not in a deep station if the station ever needs to be cleared--even with police help.
***disclaimer: while some information is based on official data, the opinions expressed are my own and not those of MTA or NYCT***
You're absolutely right - trying to evacuate a deep station can be difficult. Luckily, the number of deep stations in New York isn't all that great. There are tradeoffs to either cut-and-cover or deep bore tunnelling.
Most sub surface deep level stations were used as Bomb shelters during the Air raids of World War 2 in London.
The deepest point is near Waterloo station on the NORTHERN LINE which is 70ft (21.3 metres) below sea level.
Hampstead station also on the NORTHERN LINE has 181ft (55.2metres)
lift shaft to reach its platforms which are 221ft (67.4metres)below ground.
Some parts of the London Underground have also been used to build aircraft components during the war, mainly on parts of the system that did not have a trackbed at that time.
Rob :^)
Which Are The Highest And Deepest Stations In The Subway System.
And
While not at all elevated and outdoor stations But at MOST it seems that the MTA does not want you to see out of the platform or anyone to see in. Some exceptions are on the IRT. It can't be security, for barbed wire would easily take care of that.
Just Wondering
Highest elevated: Smith-9th Street. Runners-up: Broadway Junction (L) and Gun Hill Road (2/5).
Deepest underground: Roosevelt Island. Runners-up: 191st Street (1/9), Lexington/53rd Street and Lexington/63rd Street.
Those are windscreens you see on the station platforms, ostensibly for passenger comfort on windy days. I think they are atrocious. They rob the stations of any Dual-Contract architectural charm they had. Ditto for those loopy lamps with the big grey shades (like on the Jerome Avenue line) although the ones on the Flushing Line (33rd-Rawson, 40th -Lowery and 46th-Bliss) are better. When I saw those on the Westchester Avenue (2/5) line, ruining the 1905-era station platforms I almost had a heart attack. They took the beautiful globe lights out of Jackson Avenue station and replaced them with these monstrosities!
Wayne
Here in the States, Washington, DC's Metro System takes the cake for deepest stations in a SUBWAY (Portland, OR has a lite-rail station that is 240 feet down it is called "Washington Park"). In DC, two stations on the Red Line are at least 200 feet below the street: Forest Glen (211 ft; elevators) and Wheaton (200 ft; escalators). Woodley Park-Zoo station (180 ft) is way down there too; so is Dupont Circle (about 150 ft).
Forest Glen and Wheaton stations are located just outside the District itself in the Maryland suburbs. My ears go POP when the Red Line train descends into this "modern tube".
BTW Rob - the Yerkes Tubes have the caisson shields on the insides of them, correct? (that would be Bakerloo, Piccadilly, and part of the Northern lines).
Wayne
The Caisson shields (which date back from when tunneling was an art form!) still exist on the lines you mention (Bakerloo,Piccadilly and Northern) but in several places (particularly the NORTHERN) extensive repairs have taken place due to ingress of water which led to the closure of the "CITY" branch of the NORTHERN line for a few months during 1995. A new method of tunneling called NATM which stands for something like New Austrian Tunneling Method was trialled on the JUBILEE line extension due to open early next year and the HEATHROW
rail link. This tunneling method involves digging out earth then fixing metal wires to the sides and spraying it with concrete!!!!
A collapse at Heathrow led to this method being halted
for a while but it appears that this method is now the industry standard in Europe with the final tunnel lining being conventional interlocking concrete sections. Come back Caisson shields is all i can say!!!!!
Regards
Robin :^)
The shield is the device used to excavate the tunnel and not the method of lining the tunnel. In London and NY a full shield was used creating a circular tunnel section. A "roof shield" was used in Boston resulting in a semi-circular, two track tunnel with a flat floor. The methodology used for tunnel lining also differs, with Boston using reinforced concrete, while NY and London use the cast iron or steel rings. When the tunnel is holed through the shield is dismantled.
As an alternate to using a huge shield, the method you describe requires partial excavation, creation of this initial wall which allows complete excavation followed by construction of the main structure.
Rob,
We have a subway between NYC and New Jersey called "PATH" (Port Authority-Trans Hudson), which was opened in 1907. The two sections beneath the Hudson River, as well as portions under land (NYC Side, from river's edge to just north of 9th Street stop) have the tube construction, complete with steel rings. I wonder if this qualifies it as a "Yerkes Tube". Clive's Underground Guide is a great site. I wish it had photo illustrations. Nevertheless, it is detailed to the nth degree.
One of these days I'm going to fly to London and spend some time on the Underground. I'm curious to see what's at "Elephant And Castle"
and at the stations called "Oval" and "Angel". (looks like I'm going to be spending some time on the Northern line).
Quick question - what's the sharpest turn you have down there (above ground and surface don't count)?
Thanks,
Wayne
Wayne,
Unusual station names in London tend to be pubs, but Oval is a cricket stadium. Elephant and Castle is probably one of the nastier places in London, certainly south of the river, I have always felt distincly uncomfortable there at night [N.B. this is probably an over reaction. I have never been attacked in London ever].
If you are in London, Southgate is a must-see station, built in the 1930s it looks like a flying saucer has just landed. Also useful, the LT museum has produced a map which shows the listed stations in London.
Difficult that one Wayne, many locations have Flange lubricators in
place to cut down on wheel" screech", but the Circle line which uses the Northern part of the Hammersmith &City Line and the Southern part
of the District Line has some interesting curves. Train planners have to keep an eye on car allocation to avoid unequal tyre wear with trains doing the same circuit clockwise(outer rail) or anti-clockwise
(inner rail). Many curves are deep underground and some even s bends so the sensation of speed versus curve is hard to judge.
Oval station and the Angel relate to geographical areas, the Angel station being a showpiece since its island platforms were rebuilt into a two face platform station.
Elephant and Castle on the Southern end of the Bakerloo line is also a geographical place name with a large shopping centre being above the station.As to date 10 of the new trains have entered service on the NORTHERN Line, if you want to view the last 1967/1972 stock still operated by Guard and Motorman you have around 8 - 10 months left to ride them!!!.
Another sharp curve is on the Surface section of the DISTRICT Line when it branches off to reach Ealing Broadway station shortly after passing over the GREAT WESTERN Main Line.
regards
Rob:^)
That should read 1962/1972 stock on the Northern Line...slight type
error!!!!
Rob!!!
So London is going OPTO, huh? What's the earliest vintage equipment on the District Line these days? When I was in London in 1978, I remember riding trains built in the 20s on that line.
Also, do newer cars still have full-width motorman/operator cabs? I was disappointed that I couldn't look past the front of the train into the tunnel. I would dearly love to be able to see the tunnel along the oldest segment of the Underground.
All London Umderground lines are currently OPTO except the Northern Line, which currently has Guards until the new 1995 stock enters service in 1999 .
The District line uses stock introduced in 1980 built by Metro-Cammell of Birmingham which replaces the flared skirt co/cp stock which you probably remember. All driving positions on ALL cars are full width so front views are non existant. However all is not lost as several cab ride videos are available, details if you want them, let me know.
Of all the "surface" profile stock, all has been refurbished and repainted EXCEPT fot the District line cars which are awaiting finance
so the official sources say although most of the stock has had engineering modifications and is generally in very good shape. One last point is that this District stock uses "Tube" profile wheels , considerably smaller than "surface" stock wheels!!
Rob :^)
Rob,
Are there any plans about what to do with the A stock? Crossrail looks unlikely to happen in even the mid term, and the A stock is beginning to get very old indeed. I also has a dreadful ride at speed, I am sure that this puts people off.
Docklands light Rail has THE sharpest curves i've ssen anywhere (some seem almost right angles!!and yes the Tyne & Wear Metro along with the Manchester Metrolink offers forward views. The Waterloo & City Line i am led to believe curves around deep foundations common in the city and i am sure thats what effects the Central line also.
The A stock used on the Metropolitan and East London Line is now all fully refurbished and of the original cars built only 6 Driving Motors and 5 Trailer cars have been scrapped to date with one Trailer car converted to dispense Rail Adhesion Improver during the Autumn leaf-fall-sandite period.
I use the "Met" line ever week and the ride quality especially North of Moor Park station is very bouncy but that is more a condition of track problem than with the cars.
With regards to ride quality the local press "The London Evening Standard" are making a big fuss about something called "Kangaroo" effect which is common to C69/C77 stock operating on the CIRCLE and Hammersmith and City lines. When the Train operator "notches up" to take power some motors are slower to respond than others so the train jumps forward then feels like it is jumping back!! the cartoonists
have had a field day showing various Kangaros in the TUBE system!!!!
More tales from London soon!!!!!
Rob
Rob,
The track north of Moor Park might not be the best in London but the diesel trains from Marylebone cope with it far better. The contrast between 38 years old electric train (albeit refurbished) and virtually new diesel train on the same journey is quite incredible.
Yes,London certainly is strange with Mainline trains running over the same lines with joint running powers such as North of Harrow on the Hill to Amersham (Metropolitan), Harrow & Wealdstone to Queens Park (Bakerloo)&Gunnersbury to Richmond (District).
I recentley travelled from Harrow & Wealdstone to Wembley Central on a 1972 MKII Bakerloo line set and the ride quality was terrible, if you were holding a drink in your hand it would have spilt!! The same journey next day but on Silverlink Metro Class 313 unit was much better.
I recall an incident when i was based at Willesden as a Crew Supervisor when a class 313 unit accepted a wrong signal routing and actually went on to the District Line at Gunnersbury. That unit went so far past the limit for BR trains some electrical and signalling equipment on the LUL side was damaged. The unit was rescued by fitting an emergency "TIGHTLOCK" adaptor coupling to a class 31 locomotive and hauling it back onto the 3rd rail proper. The Richmond Branch was out of action for most of the day as a result.The worst possible situation of course is when a unit fails and the unit in rear is not compatable to couple and assist......
Any similar recollections Max???
A few years ago if you asked the driver nicely he woul;d let you ride in the cab but only outside of the rush hours and on quiet stretches of line. The oldest section is I believe between Paddington and Farringdon. There is still stock running built in 1960.
I still kick myself for not riding the Circle Line all the way around once when I was there, since it covers that original 1863 segment.
Steve,
If you ever return to the UK, you should try the Tyne and Wear Metro system at Newcastle. There are 1/2 width cabs on the trains and some of the views are very drammatic.
When I was in London two years ago, there were trains that had "London Transport" written accross them. These cars were on the Northern Line I think. Were these the 1962 stock?
I remember thinking they were ancient at the time. They certainly have not stood the test of time very well.
The NORTHERN LINE operates 1959/1962 and 1972MK1 stock, the stock you describe sounds like 1959/1962 stock. The London Transport lettering was dropped about that time in favour of the "BULLSEYE" Red circle with Blue line containing the word "Underground". This was due to London Transport making London Underground and indeed London Buses
seperate companies.
The 1959 and 1962 stock is being phased out in favour of new 1995 stock, which will be One person operated, bringing an end to crew operation on the entire system. To date only 10 of the new trains are in service and the 1972 Mk1 stock is being phased out first and then the 1959/1962 stock.
Several of the 1959/1962 stock are "pencilled in" to become works cars or "pilot" units and the 1972 Mk1 stock will be used to strengthen other lines.
This is much better than the SCANDAL on the Jubilee line, where the 1996 stock has replaced 1983 stock, the 1983 stock has been sent FOR SCRAP!!!!! (a few cars retained for works cars and several trailer cars kept). The reason behind this scrapping is that the 1983 stock has single leaf doors and to rebuild them with double leaf doors to improve station loading time would cost to much.
The national press has had a field day with photos of 1983 stock being cut up!!!!! What price is progress ????? !!
Rob :^)
If the 1962 stock had been looked after with greater care in its twilight years perhaps you might be saying the opposite. Still it does have rivets and it will be a shame to see them go, bit like the Redbirds really. A few years ago when the similarly aged Central Line stock was being disposed of the old units were offered for sale to the public by way of the railway press. It would be interesting to know whether anyone bought one or indeed if anything similar has happened in the States. Do any preservation gruops own old Subawy cars ?
Simon. I was stationed outside of London back in 1969 and rode the Undergound frequently. Several kinds of car groups sported the red livery but I did not know that the "redbird" nickname was used for them. We have some car groups on the New York Subway that were originally called Redbird,R-29,R-33 Mainline and R-36 Mainline.These cars were purchased in the early 1960's and had a brilliant red paint scheme. In the 1980's all the older R-Types on the IRT,R-26,R-28,R-29,R-33 and R-36 were rebuilt and repainted into a red paint scheme with silver roofs. The were designated at first as Silver Foxes but the Redbird name is now unofficially applied to them.
Regards,Redbird.
Perhaps others may correct me but up till around 1960 all LT stock was Red, as well as the buses. There were Green Buses but these operaated well out into the suburbs. LT then adopted a policy of aluminium stock which ended up as a plain silver finish. They even turned out a bus in aluminium finish. This was the gleeming new image of the sixties. Very gradually stock was replaced (the last of which I believe was the 38 Bakerloo stock ) and red trains were no longer. But now we have red ends to Units and red doors and even a red set of 62 stock (not too sure of current status)we may well end up with a "Redbird" in a few years time and things will have turned full circle. I did notice that the R33 -36 replacements are to have Red ends or am I just dreaming. Subways and Undergorund should always be Red.
Simon. Thank you for the info. I have seen designer's drawing of the R-142's and your right it does look like there will be some Red on the car ends and side fronts.Though I don't know if this will carry over into actual production. At first look it would seem that stainless steel is far more functional since it does not require painting. Unless there is some kind of trim or ribbing I find this a very bland surface, ref our R-62 and 68's. I also have heard that London Transport has started painting stainless steel cars to cover the "ghosting" effect caused by acid washing of graffiti.
Regards,Redbird.
That's fairly common in the U.S.-- there are a lot of railroad/transit museums that have items of rapid transit significance. There's a group in the NY area called the Railway Preservation Corporation. They own quite a few subway cars and maintain them with the assistance of New York City Transit. They own three BMT Standards (1920's vintage, being restored), four IRT Low-V's (1920's also, all in running condition), as well as two R1 types, four R6 types, one R9, and one R10 representing the period 1932-1949. Most of these are out at Coney Island Yard. This is in addition to the fleet of cars owned/used by the New York Transit Museum.
A roster of New York cars at museums is here.
The question is... since there is at least one old NYC subway car (not operating) in England, are there any London cars in the U.S.? I do not think so. But I think it would be very neat to see a LU tube stock train at Exchange Place on the PATH (a very Underground-like station).
-Dave
Well you do have the original London Bridge somewhere in the USA !! lol lol, but seriously some 1962 Central line stock (4 car set) is in an auction over here and the 1983 stock withdrawn from the Jubille line is being sent for scrap without even being offered for sale!!
I think part of the sale process involves having the vehicle stripped and checked for any Asbestos insulation (required by English Law) so this adds a considerable sum of ££ or$$ to the purchase price as only 3 locations Nationwide have a license to do this.
To many TUBE/subway fans over here, seeing the 1983 stock being moved on flatbed rigs up the Motorway to the Scrapyards in Yorkshire is a sad sight and although some trailer cars are being saved for re-use (re-building) I think the decision to dispose of this stock may well be regretted in years to come.
Rob :^)
David, I think I must have missed something but where over here is the subway car you mentioned. I hope that someone from LUL reads these pages and with a little immagination....... I do have a book which was given to me as a present on my seventh birtday. It shows a District line set which looks similar to a LoVo. The caption to the picture indicates that it can from the USA. As soon as I aquire a scanner I will post it to these pages if OK.
Another question somewhat related...
The 1938 tube stock was a major change in the design of equipment for those lines and many of the changes introduced in those cars remain features of tube stock to the present day. Have any of these cars been preserved, either by LT or by groups in England, and do any 1938 cars still exist on the UndergrounD.
Season's Greetings
Gerry
1938 stock:
One four car set is preserved by the London Transport Museum but is kept at a depot in complete 4 car status and i do not know if it is still operational. (last heard of stabled at Cockfosterd depot).
Island line= /Network South East/ (British Rail) operates 5 two car sets on the Isle of Wight with a further 5 two car sets stored or withdrawn, these units converted to operate on 3rd rail rather than 4th rail system.
The London Underground Weedkilling train (2 car) is also converted from 1938 driving cars.
A new museum located at Ealing Common will have room to house the 1938 4 car set and much more when it opens in 2000, this museum will provide access to the "hardware" that the restricted current museum at COVENT GARDEN can not house.
With regards to colour the current livery on all stock is red front blue bodyside skirt/white upper and red doors although the District Line "D" stock has not been painted nor has the 1959/1962 stock on the Northern Line slated for withdrawl next year.
The unpainted aluminium look saved time and money with regards to paint but once the graffiti artists took hold cleaning led to the ghosts of their artwork still being visible.
One ROUTEMASTER bus was also delivered in aluminium only finish...to save money on painting.....this too soon weathered and looked dull, so no more were done.
I think thats everyones questioned answered for current threads!!!!!!
Rob :^)
London Undergrounds Tunnel Cleaning Train uses 1938 stock driving motors in its 5 car formation also.
Back to the COLOUR questions.......Mainline railways (British Rail)
insisted on having yellow warning panels from the mid 1960s onward in an attempt to improve visibility to lineside staff of approaching train.
Nowadays all traction units MUST by law carry an operational headlight whilst moving on running lines, so the need for the yellow warning panel has reduced, and certain classes of locomotive and units reflect this with very small yellow ends.
A few years back it was said that London Underground stock that operated over British Rail metals.......mainly:
Queens Park-Harrow & Wealstone (BAKERLOO)
Richmond-Gunnersbury (District)
Harrow on the Hill-Amersham (Metropolitan)
Should also carry yellow ends !!!!! but this never took place (thankfully)much to London Transports delight!
On the Northern line a "heritage" set has been running around since 1990 painted in 1920s livery of red with maroon doors and silver roof. This 7 car set is:
DM 1044 2044 9045 DM 1045
DM 1030 2030 DM 1031
Trailers
And let us hope the entire 7 cars are retained when they are due for withdrawl during 1999.
Rob :^)
Buckinghamshire Railway Centre (somewhere near London) has R6 1144, which is truckless and being used as a cafeteria. I just recently received some photos of it taken by Terry Walden, courtesy of Phil Marsh. Here they are:
-Dave
Lovely! And the old GE fans are still there! Imagine if they had a seating arrangement like that back in the days when he lumbered along the "E"... :o)
Wayne
The Buckinghamshire Railway Centre is located at Quainton Road railway station which is 44 miles North West of Central London, nearest big Town is AYLESBURY (6 miles south).
Although Passenger services operated by "Chiltern Trains" operate from London MARYLEBONE to AYLESBURY, the line North of Aylesbury, passing Quainton Road is used for freight traffic only.
If you plan to visit Buckinghamshire railway centre check out the following site for travel links in this English County (Buckinghamshire)
www.pindar.co.uk/bucks/browse.html
.
On popular weekends during the Summer sometimes vintage buses link Aylesbury station with Quainton. If you have a road map, Quainton is signposted from the A413 Winslow to Aylesbury Road.
Travel info from Rob :^)
David, How on earth did it get there ? The site is only about 50 miles from where I live so I shall have to try and check it out over the Cristmas break. Thanks for the info.
Rob,
I have always assumed that the curves on the Central Line between Liverpool Street and Bank are nasty, they certainly ruin all chances of the Central Line ever having a decent service. There is also a very nasty curve on the Waterloo and City Line near Blackfriars (I assume) which feels physically sickening. The steepest curves of all are on the Docklands Line, but I guess that they don't count.
>One of these days I'm going to fly to London and spend some time on >the Underground. I'm curious to see what's at "Elephant And Castle"
Well if you fly into Heathrow you can spend your first 50 minutes there on the Picadilly Line. Or now you could take the more expensive Heathrow Express train and make the trip at 100 mph in 15 minutes for 3x the money.
As for "Elephant And Castle," it's a massive, uninviting roundabout (traffic circle) with a pink shopping center (i.e. pink elephant), some high-rise council flats, a train and a tube station. Some friends of mine used to live there so I've spent several London vacations crashing at their flat. By London standards it's a bit rough but that means it's probably safer than SoHo or the Upper West Side.
From what I've heard the area's name comes from L'Enfant du Castle. I know nothing about French so I'm sure I just murdered that. Anyway, child of or in the castle which got bastardized into elephant and castle.
Well, thanks to all (Rob, Francis, Max, and of course Simon) for all your LU information. Of course I'm going to take the Piccadilly Line from Heathrow. It is too bad about Aldwych being closed; that's the LU equivalent of the South Ferry Inner Loop station.
Lines I'd like to check out:
Northern,
Bakerloo,
Victoria,
Metropolitan,
Hammersmith and City, and
Circle.
I am looking at either 2000 or 2001 for my trip.
Wayne
You must take a Metropolitan Amersham train from Baker Steet to Harrow on the Hill and see the A stock "really cooking" - almost as good as a Redbird. Also the East London line and Mark Brunel's tunnel under the Thames. Stratford in east london where the central line rises to the surface and to meet the main line service and then burrows into the tube again. Plus lots more...
Yep, the "FAST" Metropolitan services really fly, especially through Wembley Park, another place for some speed is the Jubilee line Southbound from Baker Street to Bond Street.
The Central line between Mile End and Stratford also produces some good running except for passing through the emergency exit half way between those two stations when the air pressure changes.I wonder if the Jubilee Line extension will offer any fast stretches (if and when it opens that is!!)
Rob :^)
I tried to pull this quiz by my dad and he couldn't get everything right. Can you?
1. Name three lines with two stations with the same name or number.
2. Name two stations with switches that if used could add new routes to the subway(Hint:These switches may or may not have been used in regular service before).
3.Name the line that has a station with three tracks, then 6 tracks, then two in the next station then offset platforms at the one after that.
4. Name the non-IRT line with three consecutives express stations on a major thoroughfare with one station connected to an IRT line(I'm not telling you the borough).
And finally...
5. Name 3 major trackways constructed after 1965 and all 3 in some way affecting the same subway line(i.e. 8th Ave IND, Brighton Line, Woodlawn line).
Maybe you'll fare better than "Mr. Subway" Jack(sorry, dad.)
1. 86 Street, 96 Street and 103 Street. The lines are the 1,2,3,4,5,6,A,B,C,D.
2. The Connection between the F and the J,Z,M lines.
3. The 1 and 9 Line before the 137 Street Station
4. I can't see it but the closest is the B train with 4 express stops till it connects to an IRT line.
5.Unknown
You are good at quizes but can you beat my quiz?
Christopher Rivera
P.S I will write the Quiz as another response.
Here's my two cents woith:
1. The first two are easy:
a. R: 36th Street (Northern Boulevard, and 4th Avenue)
b. D: 7th Avenue (53rd Street, Flatbush Avenue)
The next one splits hairs:
c. B: 50th Street (New Utrecht Avenue, 6th Avenue) but technically the latter's called 47th-50th Street-Rockefeller Center. Same could be said of F's 23rd Street-6th Avenue and 23rd Street-Ely Avenue stations. ALSO: both branches of the 5 line have Gun Hill Road stations.
2. West 4th Street station and Essex Street station
3. My guess is the C: 145th Street, 135th Street, 125th Street (the "C" only uses two tracks), 116th Street. I could be wrong
4. 4th Avenue BMT: N when it runs express, 59th Street, 36th Street, Pacific Street, all under Fourth Avenue, with the last one connecting to the IRT lines.
5. The B line: Chrystie/Houston to Manhattan Bridge (1967); 53rd to 58th Street under 6th Avenue (1968);
58th/6th to 21st-Queensbridge (1988).
Let me know if I passed
Wayne
Hey, pretty good. Here are the answers I had in mind.
1-B-50th(Manhattan) and Bay 50th(Brooklyn), D-7th Ave(Manhattan and 7th Ave(Brooklyn) and E-23rd(Manhattan) and 23rd-Ely(Queens)
2-Broadway Junction and DeKalb Aves.
3-The 1/9(3 @ 125, 6 going through 137 St. yard and 2 @ 137 and offset platforms @ 145.
4-6th Ave IND-34th, 42nd and 50th with 42nd connecting to the IRT Flushing line. I suppose I could have said four express stations, becuase only expresses(B/Q) stop at 57th.
5-63rd St. tunnel(when finished), Chrystie St. tunnel and the Archer Avenue spur.
Here is my quiz. This is twice as hard. Good luck!
1. Name the only line in history that started in Queens and Ended in Queens? (Clue it was only during Rush-Hour)
2.Name the only subway line to have a movie?
3.Name the tow longest Locals in the World they are in this City.
4.What they K Line replace in 1979? (It was a double letter line)
5.What was the main reason for the N becoming a local.
6.What was the reason for the M train moving from Coney Island as it's rush hour terminal to Bay Parkway.
1. That would have to be the E from 179th Street to Rockaway Park. A few oddballs went to Lefferts too.
2. The 6: The Taking of the Pelham 1-2-3.
3. The C and the R.
4. The AA.
5. Manhattan Bridge repair rerouted the N into the Montague Tunnel and made it a local train.
6. Expanded Q express service along the Brighton Line made the D the local and made the second Brighton local redundant; so the M was sent to the West End. I remember when the M actually ran express between 36th St. and Pacific.
Wayne
1. GG
2. #6 line- "The Taking of Pelham 1-2-3"
3. A train & N train
4. HH
5. Unknown
6. Unknowm
Here are the answers
1. It was the E train for 179 to the Rockaways
2. I twas the on the 6 line. The Taking of the Pehlam 1,2,3
3. The C,R and 4, at night. The 4 line is the Longest Local in the world with 54 Stops comapired to the C which which had 39 Stops. Well The original C was the Longest
4. Cause of Contrution work on the Bride the line was rerouted.
5.With the Manhattan Bridge Constrution finished the Q train was now a sixth avenue line and now they had the new Brighton Express.
Christopher Rivera
Did the Times Square Shuttle ever operate R-12s and/or R-14s? How many and what fleet numbers did it operate?
Don't remember any R12-14-15 cars on the 42d St Shuttle. Prior to the early 60's the 1939 IRT World's Fair cars provided the service. Beginning in the early 60's I remember R17s for many years.
In addition to the R17s that ran there, I do remember an occasional R21 or R22 as well, but not a full consist. Usually it amounted to one car in the train.
Here's my "SS" numbers from way back when (1969/1970)
6645, 6525, 7664, 6663, 6607, 6609 (the museum piece), 7063, 7143, 6657, 6507, 6618, 6654, 6680, 6239 (THERE'S AN R15!- that's the OTHER museum piece), 7593, 6839, 6844, 6877, 7082, 7080, 6629, 6614, 6598, 7110, and 7054.
Wayne
Yes in 6/68, I rode an R12 on the shuttle. The entire train consisted of R12's.
For $64,000, did the conductor work the trigger boxes?
BTW, R-17 #6609 was featured in The French Connection. I think 6671 was also in that movie; I actually have the numbers written down (imagine that!) and will verify this.
Meanwhile, downtown, just before they closed the Bowling Green shuttle, they had 5700-5701 working that line, with only the center doors on each car operating (because it ran on the inside track of the South Ferry loop with the left side opening, the center doors were the closest to the platform instead of being furthest away, as they are on the No. 1 at South Ferry)
5700-5701 were 1939 WF Lo-V's. (so was 5702) I show 5703-5704-5705 and 5706 as the specially modified Bowling Green-S.Ferry shuttle cars.
Wayne
Wayne. I stand corrected.Your right.It too bad they don't run the Bowl Gn Shuttle any more. It a long walk from Bowling Green to the Ferry Terminal especially in bad weather. I remember there used to be a conductor on that train who had a small broom and if the cars got a little dusty he would sweep them out. Those oldtimers took care of their equiptment.
Right, Wayne. I got the numbers wrong.
P.S. Do you remeber if the outside number plaques were hte ones with the off-orange numerals?
These R12 cars DID have their R10-style livery, complete with orange numerals on their number plaques (located at the beltline, as opposed to up high), when I saw them and rode them on April 11, 1969.
The interiors were grey with battleship grey trim and lateral fiberglas seats. I had such fun listening to them screech and squeal around the inner loop that I went back and forth on it several times.
Bowling Green had not yet been renovated, BTW.
Wayne
Here are a few questions concerning those modified R-12s:
Was there a separate set of buttons or switches for just the center doors? Did the conductor stand on the step plates and work the trigger boxes at Bowling Green, or did they just open the center doors at both Bowling Green and South Ferry?
I too would love to have the South Ferry Bowling Green Shuttle back >GHey maybe they can use those Box Motors that haul the garbage train around when they are not being used??? They only have a center door. Nahhhh...
My recollection, the one time I rode the shuttle, was that the center doors of the cars were only used at SF but that all doors opened at Bowling Green. I can recall the trip quite well as it was the first time I'd ever seen the conductor operate the doors from between the cars (my experience with NYC was quite limited, and here in Phila conductors were always located in cabs - in fact, they NEVER left the cabs like in NYC (that was a big shock to me too!)).
"as it was the first time I'd ever seen the conductor operate the doors from between the cars"
For the past three years at Seashore, we have perioically put 800/1440 in our trolley parades to give railfans some subways to salivate over. One of the things I have wanted to do each time, but have either been operating in the parade or forgot to coordinate with the parade coordinator, is to stand in the conductor's position between the cars and have it discussed that back then, they used to have to be out of the cabs.
If I were at Seashore, with those two cars being operated, you wouldn't be able to pry me off the step plates with a crowbar. I'd be opening and closing the doors to my heart's content. I used to get the biggest kick out of watching conductors work those trigger boxes. That's why I'm so disappointed the Transit Museum had to lock the storm doors on the cars and put up railings between them - all because some kid's parents wouldn't hold his hand. One rotten apple ruins the whole bunch...
One thing I've always wondered: did any conductors ever get seriously hurt while stepping onto or off of the step plates? Since the train would be moving while they were doing this, you'd figure one slip and you're a goner.
Don't have any info on injuries,but I would guess there were some. I spoke with some friends who worked these cars in service.They recall that on longer lines(A,D,F) they would have to climb those steps close to 100 times a day,each time with the possibility of falling between cars. As cars were rarely or never washed,the uniform was filthy by the end of the day.Outdoors there was rain,snow,and cold to contend with.Then there were those morons who got their jollies by spitting at or throwing things at Conductors,who,in this position,were virtually defenseless.The novelty would wear off very quickly.......
You're absolutely right - the novelty would wear off very quickly, plus it can get tedious after a while. I'll admit I look at that sort of thing from a subway buff's point of view. My sister, who rode the subway to work every day when she lived in the city, told me more than once that if I had to use it daily, I'd probably eventually get tired of it. She's probably right, too.
P. S. There's still some degree of defenselessness even inside a cab, specifically when looking out the window for the required 3 car lengths while leaving a station.
>> One thing I've always wondered: did any conductors ever
>> get seriously hurt while stepping onto or off of the step
>> plates? Since the train would be moving while they were
>> doing this, you'd figure one slip and you're a goner.
Especially between the "D-types": wasn't anything between you
and the roadbed. The "C's" too. The "Q's" received
a pantograph gate (a la IRT cars) when they were
refitted for use on the Manhattan El's.
Wasn't the "shoe-horn" covers over the door control
handles installed because of an incident where a C/R
slipped, hit the handle and opened doors where they
shouldn't have been opened ?
Good point: the Triplex units didn't have pantograph gates the way the R units did. At least, if the Triplexes were operating as single units, the conductor stayed inside the car. They had a set of door controls inside, as well as outside.
Unfortunately, the doors don't work(as of yet). You should see the battle to ride between the cars when we get the rare opportunity to take it out on the mainline. The first time I operated the car, the project manager was yelling SO loud..(and hooting and hollering) while I was in parallel coming down our mainline. He was having so much fun, he almost forgave me for accidentally dumping the train(you'd think after 27 years of front window watching...I would have been programmed to reach for the whistle with my right hand instead of my left!!!).
The last time I ran 800/1440 at Seashore I had it signed up as HH as a reminder of those days I lived in Howard Beach.
There's a picture of the R4/R9 train at Seashore in my photo album.
My present boss grew up in Howard Beach; however, he's not into the subway. He and I are both UConn alumni, and we were both there at the same time, but never crossed paths.
BTW, the late Lithuanian tennis great Vitas Gerulaitis was also from Howard Beach. In fact, my parents know his parents.
I believe that the numbers assigned were 5700 to 5703 thereby making up two 2 car trains. The door controls were specially modified. At South Ferry both leaves of the center door on each car opened. At Bowling Green the center doors opened and one leaf only of each end door.
Wayne,
Thanks for the Times Square Shuutle fleet numbers.
What cars are being used on the shuttle today? In 1989 I was in #1420, an R62 "borrowed" from the #4 line.
The 42 St Shuttle has been using R-62a's for the past few years.I've seen cars from the 1600,1700,1800,and 1900 series.
They use R62A's from the Weschester (#6) fleet. At the open house late last summer, I saw a notation on a greasebooard in the barn that the cars there were showcase cars: no scratched window cars run on that line. Of course, with the short trip on the shuttle & the large numbers of people riding, vandals wouldn't get the chance to scratch without being noticed by someone.
I get the feeling that the showcase label has been around for some time as far as the 42nd St. shuttle is concerned. Back in the days of the graffiti epidemic, the R-17s on the shuttle were just about the only clean, graffiti-free cars in the entire system. It was a refreshing sight, to say the least.
I have a news clippling from the Daily News dated January 1, 1966. It deals with the transit strike coming to an end. Some excellent photos are featured in a two page spread.
One shows the interior of an R-12/14 with the motorman shaking hands with a passenger as a welcome back gesture. The captions relates to the fact that this is the Times Square shuttle. The small destination sign is partly visible and the word "square" can be read. The train also has the small grab handles that were installed on these cars after they left the Flushing Line.
I don't recall this stock working the shuttle. So did they and for how long? Anybody have numbers? Also, back then was the crew made up of a motorman and conductor? (Today it is made up of two motormen, correct?)
The transit strike began on January 1, 1966 and didn't end until the 12th or thereabouts - just as Mayor Lindsay was sworn in.
The strike started as Lindsay took office, and TWU boss Mike Quill took him to the cleaners, leading Robert Moses to say "You elect a matinee idol mayor and you get a musical comedy administration."
The city pols' desire to get another layer or buearcracy between them and responsiblity for the subway after the `66 strike, along with the New Haven Railroad's bankruptcy and Rockefeller's desire to take the Triborough Bridge Authority away from Robert Moses, were the main forces behind the creation of the MTA in 1968 with William Ronan (Motto - "To hell with preventive mainternence, just slap some more of these `M Transit' stickers on the trains and get those candy machines out of the subway") as its first chairman.
That's when the MTA became known as the "Wholly Ronan Empire". There was also a two-word editorial in one of the New York papers one day: "Ronan stinks."
BTW, I checked my slip of paper with the numbers of the R-17s which appeared in the shuttle sequence of The French Connection. They were 6548, 6609 (now at the Transit Museum), and 6671.
Earlier this year, the MTA said that the R142's would start arriving in April of '99...which is now only a few months away. But the big question is how accurate this date is....you never know what kind of delays you will have. my predicition is that maybe they will start arriving in may or june, but probably not until july or august. While most of them are supposed to be here by the end of '99, I think many will still be finding their way here in 2000. Okay, thats my two cents...who's next?-Nick
If you start seeing NYCT cars at the Kawasaki plant in Yonkers, alongside the Metro North tracks, then you'll know that they are on the way.
The shells for the cars would be shipped from the main plant in Japan then put on a boat and shipped to the Yonkers facility for final assembly. Whatever installations that are not completed by Kawasaki would be in turn completed by TA crews at 207 St or Coney Island shops. As I recall the R127s and 134s (work motors) made their way from Yonkers before arriving on TA property.
Bombadier cars are an entirely different issue. You'd better go to their Vermont plant to see what's going on with their share of the lion's order.
-Constantine
Quick question for anyone familiar with SEPTA's Broad St Subway: There appears to be a lower level to the Pattison Station. If you look through the bars in the center of the platform, there are stairs that appear to lead down to another platform of some kind. What's down there? Is it actually another platform or just maintenance tunnels of some kind? If it is another platform, was it ever used for revenue service?
This question has probably been asked before, but I couldn't find it in the archives, and I've always been curious.
The lower level is used during events at the stadiums nearby. This splits the load of passengers in half instead of all being on the same platform. Only used at these times. The subways pull out with a frequent headway during these events.
Chuck Greene
Not to contradict, but I've been told varying things about the lower level. I know it was out of service for a LONG time a few years back due to a bad turnout leading from the upper level, but I understand that this has been corrected. Is the lower level back in use? I've been to some major stadium events (and with three sports arenas in the area now, sometimes having simultaneous events, there are some big crowds) and I've only seen it used once, many years ago. ????
I was at a Phillies game this summer and neither the lower nor the upper level was being used. Unfortunately, we were there during the strike...
Does anyone have an updated drawing or set of drawtings
thank you
Steve
Rich. Pattison Station was built with two levels. Each having two tracks and a single island platform.Each upper level track can hold two 8 car trains while each lower level track can hold 3 six car trains. It was planned that at the end of major sporting events several trains would be positions at various points on both level to handle the crowds. This system was found to be impractical and all trains now used the upper level. The two lower level tracks merge into a single track and ramp to the upper level to connect to the northbound track. It is possible that SEPTA may station equiptment on the lower level during sporting events then relay them to the upper level when the games are over,but I'm not sure about this. Hope this helps.
Because of the very relay you mentioned, the transfer of cars from lower to upper gets to be very disruptive, considering that regular service is still going on during the "jockeying" times. In my experience, as many trains as can be stored on the upper level are held there, with others usually kept on the SB express track at Walnut-Locust and dispatched southward as space at Pattison permits.
I think you are right.The lower level platform seems to be narrower than the upper level one and can only be reached by narrow staircases. I was there earlier this year and it did not look like those stairs received much use.
If you take notice the next time you're there, the lower level is completely beneath the upper level platform area. While the upper level platform is intentionally wide (and you know why if you've ever been there post-event!), I think the intent of the lower level was to have folks descend and board waiting trains, rather than have riders dwell there waiting for the trains. In any event, as I noted previously, in my experience on the line, the lower level is seldom in use. Even on the weekend of the Million Woman March (Oct '97), when the line was a major factor in the transport of crowds to Center City from the stadium and Navy Yard parking areas, I do not believe the lower level was opened. I have also been told by various SEPTA operating and supervisory personnel that it would probably be better for all involved if the lower level were sealed off entirely to prevent against vandalism, etc.
Rich. One correction. It seems that the lower level is used during major events.
The ad I saw this past summer called Absolut Citron is in this past Sunday's NY Times Magazine. It shows taxicabs forming the Absolut Vodka bottle.
The scene is S. Broad St. in Philadelphia, facing south from Chestnut, with the center island somehow missing. But you can see orange Broad St. Subway entrances on both sides of the street (and some well-know building on the street, and a Chestnut St. street sign on the left). The Broad St. entrances making it fitting for a posting here.
I haven't seen the ad in about 8 months. I mentioned it then, but some had missed it so I'm citing a new appearance of it (I'll bet some of you thought it was 5th Avenue in NYC...).
The streetlamps on 5th Avenue had curlie cues in the crooks of their arms (you can see new ones along W.42nd Street around the Library; they add a nice touch; too bad there aren't more of these). The Phila streetlamps are cousins; the shades are different - squarer rather than bell-shaped.
Speaking of ads - isn't that Exchange Place station and a PA-1 (or PA-2) type PATH train in a Salem ad? (train's blurry, can't get the number)
Wayne
That is A Path station in the Salem ad, i've seen it but couldn't tell you where.
And how could one mistake S. Broad St. for 5th Ave? Isn't 5th Ave. one way south as Broad St. is two way?:)
Underground for now.
Well the taxis are all facing one way. When the staged (or computer-generated) the ad, they got all the cars to face one way. But if you look closely you can see the white stop line on half the street. So some provincial people could mistake it for one-way 5th Avenue...
Way back in the 1970's the MTA ran three Culture Buses. They were M-41 Culture Loop I,B-88 Culture Loop II and Bx56 Culture Loop III. They ran on the weekends and I believed used express buses. The Bx56 was a TA route even though it ran in MaBTOA territory. Would anyone have info regarding starting and ending dates for these services. Again thanks. Redbird.
I don't know the dates, but I do know that the BX56 was very short lived, while the B88 and M41 operated to about the early 1980's. Yes, they did use express buses. I never saw the BX56, but I rode the other two many times. The B88 operated out of Jackie Gleason (then it was Fifth Ave depot) and the M41 came out of 100 Street depot.
I have one of the old metal bus stop signs for the Manhattan Culture bus. I also think that on the Ulmer Park front sign I have, there is a simple "Culture Bus" reading. I will look and report back.
Right before entering Grand Central Station On the uptown express there is a little hose device spraying a fluid on the tracks 24/7. This is the only place I have ever seen this done. What is it and why is it done?
There are several places water is used to cut down the nose the wheel flanges make on curves. There was just a thread posted here last week about the South Ferry (#1/#9) stop. Someone listed all the places they "sprinkle" water on the tracks, I don't have the list though but that thread still might be here or in the archives.
Unless this is something new, you have the use correct but not the lubricant. They are referred to as greasers - mainly because the inject grease onto the flange side of the rail as a train passes. This is fairly common throughout the system but I have never heard of water being used.
There are a few locations where the "water system" is being
used for curve lubrication. When a train approaches, jets
start spraying a liquid mist which is picked up by the back
of the wheels. I don't know if that liquid is really pure water,
or some other lubricant, but this approach is distinct and different
from the more conventional flange greasers which apply globs
of Texaco-411.
I know that Toronto has had good success with water to reduce flange noise in subway tunnels. I know that is used for sure at the Queen loop on the harborfront LRV line and may be used elsewhere. It works well in tunnels where the temperature is constant but at or above grade it may not work so well in the winter.
Greese works well if it stays where it belongs but if it gets on the rail head or wheel face it has a tendance to reduce braking effectieness.
I know that Toronto has had good success with water to reduce flange noise in subway tunnels. I know that is used for sure at the Queen loop on the harborfront LRV line and may be used elsewhere. It works well in tunnels where the temperature is constant but at or above grade it may not work so well in the winter.
Greese works well if it stays where it belongs but if it gets on the rail head or wheel face it has a tendance to reduce braking effectiveness.
Can someone tell me...
On the Unused Broadway tracks, below and sometimes between the N,R tracks, Where do these tracks terminate in either direction???
Which station have stops for these tracks?
Where do they connect to other lines?
I would also like to ask the same questions for the 8th Avenue tracks under and sometimes between the current, in-use 8th Avenue tracks.
And also the same question for the unused tracks on the 6th Avenue line which I know run out to Brooklyn. How Far? Do they go into Queens also? How far? What are the stops. I know that there is a stop on this line under Bergan Street because I often go down there when they leave the door open.
Also, where might these unused IND Tracks connect with other IND Lines?
Does anyone have something comprehensive on these unused lines???
The track maps should be able to answer all your questions about what goes where. See: http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/.
They clearly show the track situation on Broadway. I'm not sure what unused tracks from 6th Ave. to Brooklyn you are talking about. I can't think of anything that would resemble that situation except for the south side of the Manhattan Bridge (which is Broadway to Brooklyn, not 6th Ave.) The track at Bergen Street lower level begins near the junction between Jay St & Hoyt/Schermerhorn and they rise to become the center tracks on the Smith/9th Viaduct. They too are shown on the track maps. The only unused track under the 8th Ave. is at 42nd St. lower level (also shown on the track maps) which was recently discussed here in detail. There are some central sidings (one near Penn Station and others in uptown Manhattan) also shown on the maps.
-Dave
I am having trouble with the track map. And also trouble reading it.
What are the stops for the unused tracks that run along the F Line. I can see the tracks between the F Line at 9th and at Carroll Streets. I know that they go under Bergan Street because I have been down to that closed platform below. I assume that this track runs to Manhattan. ??? and becomes the unused track in the middle at 2nd Avenue and perhapse beyond. Where? What stops does it make? Are there other unused platforms for this like, as there are at Bergan Street?
As for the 42nd Street Lower level, is that just a lone station that's not connected to anything or is there a line there somewhere?
What are the stops along the express tracks on the Broadway line? I know there is a lower level to City Hall Station. What are the others? And what are the start and end points for this line?
> What are the stops for the unused tracks that run along the F Line.
Starting at Jay Street: Berget St (lower level). 7th Ave / Park Slope, Church Avenue. Between 7th Ave and Church Ave, the express tracks diverge from the local tracks similarly to the way they do on the Queens Blvd line between Queens Plaza and Roosevelt Ave. These tracks are used during trackwork on the local tracks or when service diversions occur due to stalled traisn and the like.
> I assume that this track runs to Manhattan. ??? and becomes the
> unused track in the middle at 2nd Avenue and perhapse beyond.
Nope. They combine just south of Bergen St from 4 to two. The 2nd Ave platform express tracks were intended to connect to a massive station in Brooklyn at S 4 St that never occurred. Those trackways only run a few hundred feet.
> As for the 42nd Street Lower level, is that just a lone station
> that's not connected to anything or is there a line there somewhere?
42nd/8th Ave lower level runs southbound (downtown only). It was used between '69 and '81. More recently used filming the movie Ghost.
> What are the stops along the express tracks on the Broadway line? I
> know there is a lower level to City Hall Station. What are the
> others? And what are the start and end points for this line?
The express stops under Broadway and 7th Ave are 57th/7th, 42nd/Times Square, 34th/Herald Sq, 14th/Union Sq and Canal St. The lower level of City Hall was intended for a route never built. These express tracks are only temporarily abandoned; they'll see express service when the south side of the Manhattan Bridge opens early in the next century.
--Mark
Thanks Mark.
I am intrigued by the express tracks at 2nd Ave. that never happened.
What was the intended route to Brooklyn and where were the start and end points of this forgotten line???
The unused center tracks at 2nd Ave. were to continue under the East River and join two other lines - one originating from stubs between Canal St. and Chambers-WTC and running under Worth St. and East Broadway, the other turning east from the long-proposed 2nd Ave. line - at an immense 6-track junction at S. 4th St. The only station you could compare it with would be Hoyt-Schermerhorn Sts. There is a shell for this never-built station in the roof of the Broadway station on the G line, but you cannot legally enter it. From S. 4th St., there would have been a major two-level trunk line along Broadway which would have had one line turning easterly at Myrtle Ave. and eventually continuing to the Rockaways, the other turning south at Stuyvesant Ave. and continuing south under Utica Ave. The Utica Ave. station on the A/C Fulton St. line has a shell built one level above the existing tracks for this proposed line; the trackways are plainly visible. This was all part of a comprehensive network of lines known as the IND Second System. The Depression wiped out all of these plans. There is a section elsewhere on this website which goes into more detail about the Second System; I believe it's under Historical Operations.
Greetings all from Boston,
May get a chance to hop a ride on the T tonight and do some exploring.
JB
p.s. Went to NYC last weekend with my parents who INSISTED upon the park n' ride instead of the train to subway. Made more sense, but I wanted the train option!
Have fun, Jersey Boy! If you pass the Resevoir station on the D Green line, Cleveland Circle on the C Green Line, or Chestnut Hill on the B Green Line...let me know cause my college is 5 minutes from there. If you get a chance, take the red line to Ashmont (NOT Braintree), then you can take the PCC cars to Mattapan. Also, you'll notice that there are some older red line cars, as well as some brand new ones, all state-of-the-art (built by bombardier) like the future R142's.-Nick
Here are a couple of sugggestions to add to Nick's.
The Blue Line is worth every minute of the ride, tiny cars, railfan's window, wayside signals, lots of time lights, steep grades, curves, change from 3rd rail to pantograph, ocean views, visible yard at Orient Heights, former Boston Revere Beach & Lynn ROW north of Wood Island.
Skip the Orange Line - not worth it since els torn down.
Both Red Line branches are good. Ashmont has Mattapan Line at end, Braintree has some good speed runs, excellent views from Bridge over Neponset R., races with Commuter Trains. North end is mostly underground but has some redeeming qualities. Ride to Harvard and back recommended. Harvard is interesting dual level station with bus tunnel (also dual level) adjacent. Curve at south end of station rivals BMT Eastern Div. Els - only underground. Remains of two former stations at end of curve (one on each side of tracks). Longfellow (nee: West Boston, aka: Salt & Pepper) Bridge Crossing is on center reservation, fantastic views of Boston & Charles River. After Charles-MGH train is on el structure into tunnel through the side of a building. 01800 series cars preferred for Red Line rides
Green Line between Park and Lechmere is a MUST! Twisting tunnel skirts building foundations and graveyards. Two way loops at Government Center. Haymarket Station is on center trackways of four track subway. You then enter remains of old Haymarket Sta. followed by shoo-fly into former Orange Line tunnel and portal then reverse curve onto NEW open deck el structure with highway ramp above, views of subway construction, then curve onto 1912 el structure, many views of Big Dig highway work. Also another Charles River crossing with view of Red Line, Science Museum and ramp to ground level at Lechmere Terminal. Check out yard in middle of loop.
Best surface ride on Green Line is (B) Commonwealth Av., steep grades, center and side reservations, Y junction at Chestnut Hill Av., BU, BC, Cardinal's Residence all on route. (C) Beacon St. is straight, flat, tree lined reservation, from Coolidge Cor to Portal is part of original 1889 trolley line. (E) Huntington Av. line is straight flat reservation to Brigham Circle, then some street running. Outer end closed since 1985. (D) Riverside line is typical commuter rail line through people's back yards some scenery but mostly boring.
Mattapan Line passes big Red Line yard, bisects cemetary, flyover with view of Neponset Marshes, then hugs Neponset River to Mattapan. Bridge construction at Lower Mills, busy grade crossing at Central Av., also crosses Capen St. in pretty residential neighborhood. Busy Mattapan terminal on Boston side of river, small yard, outdoor maintenance shop. Station facade matches Fields Corner Sta but no back or sides.
Enjoy!
Gerry
Hi again all.. Very briefly while I'm taking a short break...
I technically rode each of the lines, although not everywhere.
I started by taking the Orange Line from Malden into the city to spend some time at Quincy Market. It is a rather dull line, aside from the unusual platforms where the doors open on both sides heading back.
I then walked down to Downtown Crossing to take a leisure run out to Mattpan, however at 9:00 at night, the platform was packed worse than Penn Station during rush hour. I'm guessing some serious delays were the cause. So I took a Red Line train out to Alewife. I noted that when we got to Park St., they forced everyone to get off the southbound train that arrived at the same time. I guess they wanted to get people off the platform at Downtown Crossing and have the people at Park wait for the next train which was 2 mins behind the other. I noticed 4 trains or so pass southbound each station we went through. Anyway, my red line train was one of the newer ones. When I got to Alewife I waited for about 5 trains for an older train, but none came and I gave up. Boy are some of those curves near Harvard TIGHT! There's a nice view from that bridge over the Charles River of the Financial District (Prudential building, etc.)
I then got off at Park Street to go to the Green Line. I decided to cut it short and head off to Government Center. Both Green Line stations are NEAT! Lots of action in and out and in every which way direction. Watch your step crossing Track 4 at Park!
I then took a Blue Line all the way out to Wonderland. I think I liked this line the best.. neat tunnels and the switch from third rail to catenary was very brief and hardly noticable. I wish I had time to watch the switch from the outside. The grade timers were very frequent, and the operator barely passed through before they changed yellow/white from red. I also noticed that the conductor in the front cab got off about 2 to 3 stations after the airport and came and went from the front door of the train. I was disappointed at the lack of a free crossover at most of the stations, so payed my extra fare to head back out to Malden. Unfortunately my nose decided to take a red leak (frequent in dry heat like that produced by subway HVAC) and didn't have any tissues. I was able to convice the helper conductor on the train back to give me some very badly needed tissues, lest I leave blood all over their car and station.
I don't think I'll get another chance to get into Boston, I'm staying in Woburn on business travel and leave back to Newark Thurs. night.
Does anyone have detailed info
M8
M9
======bus Routes including Round Trip Routings
THnak you
Steve
The 1974 "Manhattan Bus Guide" shows the M8 and M9 on the map but does not show them on the list of routes and hours of service. There is a little note that "M8 and M9 routes are operated by the Avenue B & E. Broadway Transit Co." The M8 ran from the Hudson River along Broome, Allen and Grand Sts. to the FDR Drive, returning on Grand, Varick, Canal and Broome Sts. to West St. The M9 ran 15th St. and Park Ave. So. along 15th St., Third Ave, 14th St., Ave. B, E. Broadway to the Bowery, returning along Division St., Essex St., 3rd St., Ave. B, 14th St., 3rd Ave., 16th St. to Park Ave. So. I should add that this is how I read the map, which isn't always all that clear. Does anyone have a better reading or knowledge of the routes?
My recollectionfrom 66-70 was that the (M9) ran all ther way to Park Row--the Northbound stop was a block north of where J&R is at 15 PR, thence same as the 1st Ave line to Chatham Square then as you describe except 14 to Park Ave South, then right turn to stop on Park
The Av B Company had a third route. It was the M-7 Yorkville or 110 St-World Trade Center Exp.When the City took over this service it became the x90.Note that the M-7 designation duplicated MaBSTOA's M-7 6 AV-7AV_Broadway run.
Hello again folks!!! This just in.... Someone spotted the R110Bs in test service on the N line recently and said that it crossed onto the Flushing line from Queensboro Plaza and made it's way into the middle track at Rawson St. Is there any confirmation about this? Apparently, the B division cars will clear the Flushing Line up to a certain point. Your info is greatly appreciated.
-Constantine
The R-110B was used to test the R-143 Pre-production trucks on the N line about 2-3 weeks ago. I had not heard that it made it onto the Flushing line. However, that will be easy to check out as 2 of my former employees were doing the testing.... I will find out & report.
Both Flushing (really Corona) and Astoria lines were built to Dual
Contract specifications, which provided adequate clearances for
B division equipment. Platforms on A division Dual Contract stations
have an extra-long overhang. They were designed to be easily
converted to 10' width if needed just by removing the excess
platform width.
In fact, when it first opened in 1917, the Astoria Line had platforms
for the narrower rolling stock. Service on both Corona and Astoria
lines was provided jointly by the IRT and BRT companies, with
the BRT using its "BU" (wooden elevated) cars. The wider AB
subway cars coming up from the BRT/BMT 60 St tubes had to terminate
at Queenboro Plaza. In fact, if you explore that station area today,
you can still see the trackways for the "tail track" that allowed
the subway trains to pull into QBP upper level, discharge, relay east
via the tail track, which extends almost to Rawson Street and is
south of the Corona line trackage, change ends, and return via the
lower level for departure back to Manhattan.
In 1949, the Board of Transporation elected to "exercise the option"
and cut back the platforms on the Astoria line, made some track changes, and from that point forward Dual Service was a memory.
Perhaps someone can answer this question: What was the deal with
the trip cocks during these pre-war days of dual-service?
Constantine's report of the R110B relaying at Rawson St is interesting, because RTO rules generally prohibit a movement where
the head car won't have trip protection.
Well Jeff, I hope that Steve can shed some light on this situation. All of your facts are correct. The structures were built to Dual Contract standards. The lines were jointly operated. The IRT had its hand on both lines just a few years before joint operation. I don't really understand how they could have had joint service. This must have cramped both lines let alone confuse the passangers with different trains running at different locations (at Queensboro Plaza). If I wanted a BMT train but I took an IRT train from 30th Av, I'd have to transfer at Queensboro Plaza. The problem here is the transfer wasn't free because of the different companies. So the trip could have been a waste of time. There were a lot of tracks and a lot of trains. This was one complicated situation.
I always wondered why the structure on the side of the Flushing Line ended abruptly before Rawson St. I always thought there had been a physical connection at Rawson St, but was cut. I'm wrong to say that. This layup track was a better alternative in turning AB Standards and D Types than to turn it right in the station.
As far as the trip cocks are concerned, I really don't know what the deal is. They tested something on the cars.
I don't know why the BMT/IND trains couldn't operate the entire Flushing line. The Flushing line is not physically connected with the IRT, so the most logical thing they could have done was to modify the line to accept larger cars. The IRT cars could be put on other assignments.
-Constantine
The MTA would probably have to spend zillions to buy land just to modify the stations in Queens west of QbP to accept B-Div cars...
Why? Other than the fact we are dealing with the MTA, why would they need to buy land to chop 2 feet off the edge of the platforms? The only other thing I could think of is they'd have to shave the tunnels into manhattan. Oh yeah, and Main Street. But other than that, it probbly wouldn't be an expensive thing, though granted shaving out those tunnels alone would make it pretty damm expensive...
The Steinway tunnel would be the killer as far as the budget goes. Remeber, they were originally built for trolleys and the MTA had troubled running the R-62s in there a few years ago without losing some parts.
I suppose you could run the IRT cars just between Times Square and QBP, but that would only create the exact opposite situation from the pre-1949 problem that was mentioned earlier. IRT riders would have to transfer at QBP for BMT cars.
Of course, if in some distant day in the future they ever extend the 7 west into New Jersey, ending the line at QBP would make a little more sense.
I think conversion of some of the Dual Contract IRT lines was
talked about in conjunction with the 2 Ave subway project.
The Flushing line is not an option because of the Steinway Tubes.
They just barely clear the IRT cars as is. As for other places
on the Dual Contracts A division, well, they may have been designed
to clear B division tolerances, but a lot of pipes, cables, signals
and other annoyances have been installed since and some of them
will only clear the IRT stuff. You'd also have the minor surgery
of changing all the trip arms and adjusting the third rail height,
plus I'm not sure if when the platform extensions were done enough
extra length was put in to accomodate 606' trains as opposed to 510.
Oh, and just to re-address something Constantine brought up. When
service opened on the Astoria and Corona lines in 1917, there were
indeed separate fair controls and platform areas for the BRT and IRT.
The BRT never exercised its right to operate over *either* of these
elevated lines until 1923. At that point, they entered into a
revenue sharing agreement with the IRT and the gates came down.
So, the transfer from, say, an IRT 2Ave/Corona train to a BMT steel
at QBP was a free one.
Forget the matter about the Steinway tunnels discussed in this thread. There is NO WAY an A-Division car will be able to clear the sharp curves between Queensboro Plaza and Vernon/Jackson. The curves have to be softened a bit, requiring more real estate to accomplish that.
The only one that might cause a problem is the underground curve just out of Hunters Point Avenue - the others are on elevated structure. The sharpest one, just west of Queensboro Plaza, doesn't look much tighter than the one at Cypress Hills on the "J". Perhaps a 60-foot car would be able to clear, but not a 75-footer. If there's a problem with trains passing each other, softening the curve of an elevated structure wouldn't be impossible. It's underground where it becomes problematic.
Wayne
In 1969 there were plans to convert the outer ends of the 2 and 6 trains to B division standards so that these lines would feed into the Bronx part of the Second Avenue subway. At the time I heard that all that was necessary was to cut back the platforms (and maybe extend them for longer trains). Are these lines built to the same Dual Contract specifications as the Flushing line? Would it really be that easy to convert them to the B division? (Obviously the 1905-vintage el for the 2 and 5 below 180th Street couldn't be changed.) Did the Dual Contract specs. assume 60 foot or 67 foot cars?
Given that 67 feet was settled upon for car length on the BMT portion of the Dual Contracts, I'd have to say that would be it. It wasn't until the IND entered the picture that 60-foot cars came into being.
There were plans to convert the Pelham and White Plains Rd. elevated segments to B division standards when the 2nd Ave. line was first proposed back in the 20s.
About 15 years ago when I was on jury duty at the Bronx Courthouse I used the opportunity to vist the remains of the 9 Av El tunnel thru the Highbridge section of the Bronx.The Jerome-Anderson Avs Station platform was party in tunnel on the Anderson Av side then came out to an embankment and el structure on the Jerome Av side. Apparently it could be reached from either side.The stairs leading down to the platform from Jerome Av were in a building and bricked up.From the Jerome Av side you can climb up a small embankment a see a portion of the platform.Of course the tunnel is walled shut but there must be some kind of access to it.The station on the west end was Sedgewick Av and it was partly on an embankment and party on el structure over the NYCRR/MNRR tracks. The embankment part is in the open and under the Major Deegan Expressway, somewhat similar to Lenox Terminal. The two platforms were both intact. I wonder if anyone has more recent info about this site. PS The Sedgewick Av Station is in a isolated area and I would not recommend anyone visting it alone.
As of December 31, 1998 (About two weeks away), The CTA will stop selling tokens and as of the end of March 1999 ( I believe) they wil stop excepting them.
I have to head over the local Metra station soon and get a ten pack before they stop selling them?
Are there any plans in NYC for distant future for the Metro-card to replace tokens completely?
My view is that it is good to stop selling tokens, but at the same time the CTA needs to break down and put the AVM (Automatic vending machines) that sell the fare cards in the major bus stops and food stores where tokens used to be sold.
What is your view???
BJ
(800) 888-8802
I was very tired when i posted the original message and still am, but i messed up in two places, one the first question mark should be a period and the phone number at the bottom isn't mine but that of a local retail store which I meant to paste else-where and pasted it there by mistake, sorry
BJ
"My view is that it is good to stop selling tokens, but at the same time the CTA needs to break down and put the AVM (Automatic vending machines) that sell the fare cards in the major bus stops and food stores where tokens used to be sold."
Dominick's and Jewel/Osco already sell wrapped, pre-charged Transit Cards along with tokens. I believe they charge $10 for a card with $11 on it and $20 for a card with $22 on it (the same 10% bonus the AVMs in the rapid transit stations give). These cards are the usual rechargeable TCs but I don't think the stores that sell cards have machines to recharge them.
Maybe CTA should consider a desk-top machine for adding value to TCs so that the stores could recharge them instead of having to sell new cards. Anything is better than the absolutely asinine "pack of ten cards, each one with $1.50 on it" that the CTA will be selling in stores to replace the token. AAARGH! Why not sell ***one*** card, with $15 value on it?!?! That's supposed to be the idea behind the Transit Card in the first place!
As to AVMs at major bus stops, they would have to protected from the weather and have access to electricity, and the machines are so large (about the size of a soda vending machine) even without an enclosure around them that they would nearly block the sidewalk. Maybe at major off-street bus terminals, but not everyone rides all the way to the terminal and most of the major bus terminals are at rapid transit stations anyhow.
This same problem (access to machines/sellers of cards) exists in NYC, particularily further out, i.e. LI Bus. It looks like the MTA is comming around to embracing a technology that will let you carry a card with NO VALUE on it, i.e. your account is charged with value either by check or credit card. If you let the value get liquadated, they negitive list the card & it won't work anymore. Can you say E-Z-Pass ???
Mr t__:^)
Orion 144 caught fire on the Gowanus Expwy while running on from Yukon Depot to manhattan for an express trip. A dispatcher came upon the scene and assisted with extinguishing the fire and was taken to the hosp for smoke inhalation.
Mike,
I took a look in the "Insiders Guide" for this bus, but noticed that it doesn't have bus#s, therefore can I confirm that 144 is a diesel Orion V ?
Mr t__:^)
Yes, Mr. T you're correct. 144 is part of NYCTA's first Orion order from 1993. Also 144 is one of those that originally had the 5-digit (93044) fleet number.
I was on the train with my friend and on the back of my ticket it said where I purchased my ticket. Yet my friends ticket said "extra service." We both purchased the ticket at the same station. What does extra service mean?
Did the conductor punch a box marked "extra service"? If so, it probably was just a mistake.
I'll have to find out! He got it at the station, not on the train. I don't know if that helps?
When you purchase an LIRR ticket at the station, the agent stamps the ticket with the date and station name. A ticket is not supposed to be honored without this validation. This is done to thwart theft of tickets from stations. I recall reading a Newsday story from a few years back which told of some thieves who stole thousands of tickets from one of the stations, but didn't spend the time to individually stamp each ticket before making off with the tix. The tickets they stole were worthless.
My guess is that "extra service" probably is used for stamping machines which are moved from station to station in anticipation of increased demand from a special event. Which station did you purchase the ticket at?
It was at Hicksville. That could be true. Even though the ticket was purchased in the morning. That night was the Billy Joel concert.
I had occasion to visit NYC for a transit weekend on Dec 4,5,6&7.
I had the pleasure of going on both the "unification tour" on the 6th and "taking the A train uptown" on the 5th. I want to say that I think both Andy Sparberg and Joe Cunningham did fine work leading the tours and giving presentations that catered to hard core railfans and those just generally interested. Seeing the Lower 42nd st. station (both days) and the essex streetcar loop were particular highlights.
I also made a point of riding peak direction expresses in the Bronx and els in Brooklyn and Queens.
On the 7th I went to Newark by PATH to ride the subway there. I have two questions I hope someone can answer for me. First, what is the subsidy for PATH and who pays? $1 for that ride is a great deal.
Second, there is a crossover track near franklin loop on the Newark subway. Why is it still there? I know they used to use double ended cars before the PCCs, but the line has obviously been completely rebuilt since then.
Thanks in advance for help with those questions and once again thanks to Joe and Andy if they are reading this.
The first two letters in PATH, the PA = Port Authority. The Port Authority runs the bridges & tunnels between New York & New Jersey. The subsidy comes from the motorists.
[[re PATH subsidies]]
[The first two letters in PATH, the PA = Port Authority. The Port Authority runs the bridges & tunnels between New York & New Jersey. The subsidy comes from the motorists.]
Plus a few other sources. In addition to the bridge and tunnel tolls, the Port Authority makes profits on the airports, the seaports, and the World Trade Center. It loses money, big time, on PATH and on the Port Authority Bus Terminal. As far as I know, toll revenues aren't specifically earmarked for PATH; instead, net revenues on the moneymaking activities go into a general fund for subsidizing PATH and the bus terminal.
Don't forget the bus terminals at 42nd Street and the George Washington Bridge Bus Term as well.
Right, I'd forgotten about the George Washington Bridge bus terminal. The Port Authority doesn't break out the terminal's financial performance from that of the bridge itself, so it's not possible to figure out how much the terminal loses each year (the GWB itself is a *huge* cash cow).
For 1997, the Port Authority Bus Terminal had gross operating revenues of $28.6 million, but a loss from operations of $43.1 million. PATH had gross operating revenues of $64.7 million and a loss from operation of (gasp!) $138.7 million ...
Yesterday I took the LIRR to see the Miracle On 34th Street, that's right Old Saint Nick on the 8th floor of Macys'. BTW, if you haven't been this year, they renovated the space & Santa Land is completely different now. My wife didn't like it, but I was tried of the old Santa Land, this is different & EYE liked it. The puppet show is now free, but very crowded (it's one flight up).
Anyhow ... we rode up front, my 5 year old grandson with his nose pressed to the door window and just before we entered the tunnel the motorman let him sound the horn. For the return trip, my wife & I stayed to shop at Conway & Odd Lot while my daughter took the boy by herself back home. He insisted that they ride up front. The conductor gave him a "Souvenir" ticket 2 1/4 X 3 1/2 ... what a nice idea. He showed it to me, but said I couldn't have it ... he knows I collect such things :-( Here comes the funny part ... when we got home Grandma asked him what he liked best about the day ... he replyed riding the train and sounding the horn ... I'm proud of this little guy !
Mr t__:^)
Tuesday's Newsday has a very detailed article, by freelance writer Kelly Campbell, about the Vak Trak ... it reads like a adv but for us buffs provides a lot of info. There's even a small photo of the train about to suck up a pile of paper in the track ahead of it.
Copyright disclaimer: I've mentioned the source & writer & quoted less than 400 words, so no "infringement".
Mr t__:^)
Today I noticed what looks like another employee-only platform on the LIRR. It's located on the south side of the tracks just west of Floral Park, probably accessible only by Hempstead trains. The platform's quite small, just a one-door-of-one-car affair, though the yellow safety strips make it quite visible. I can't say for sure that it's brand-new, although I probably would have noticed it already if it had been around. It isn't readily apparent what the platform's meant to serve, especially because it's only a short distance from Floral Park.
Could it have something to do with the switching for the Belmont Park line? I can't recall if the line breaks off between Bellerose and Floral Park or between Queens Village and Bellerose.
The Belmont Park spur breaks off between Queens Village and Bellerose, west of the Cross Island Parkway, right about the City line. There is a connection west and east, forming a wye. As for the platform you mentioned, I haven't been back to Floral Park since 1988 but if I ever do go back there I'll check it out.
Wayne
What you saw is the support platform where a new signal hut will be installed (as part of the Hempstead Branch Reverse Signaling Project).
The middle to late 1960's were a watershed time for the late,great BMT. On any given day a group of young railfans could be found at Coney Island Terminal.(The Holy of Holies).They was always good conversation and many of the BMT crews were friendly or at least tolerant of us.We used to be allowed to change the roll signs on the R-27's operating on the T Broadway-West End Exp.In the evening T's arriving at Coney were sent back to Canal St for layup from about 715 to735pm. They ran exp from 36 to Pacific and then via tunnel.I wonder if anyone else remembers this.
What did you end up signing the trains as? Also, what time period was this (before 1965, after 1965)? I know that the last Triplex units ended their careers on the West End in 1965; did the R-27s supplement West End service back then? The R-32s also saw action on the West End after they arrived.
Steve. Let me correct my earlier staement slightly.The time I am referring to would have been 1964-65-66.This was a transitional period as you know seeing the last of the D-types and the coming of the R-32's with an occassional R-27 thrown in.Usually when an R-type would arrive we would change the north destination to Canal St,leave the south destination as Coney Island and then change the Route Sign from T to TT.I confess I had this a little confused but I was going back 30 years.The train was signed as a TT West End Local even though it ran exp on 4 Av. I think they didn't want to call it a T Broadway Exp since people might think it was going over the bridge to Bway. Regards,Redbird.
There was a transit panel at City Planning yesterday. The MTA was pushing the Broadway Express extension up 2nd Avenue to 125th St. That 2 1/2 project is expected to cost $3.5 billion, more than $1.2 billion per mile.
A group led by the RPA was pushing Metro East, which included the complete Second Avenue Project, with a second express track to carry a suburban connector service from Grand Central, through a new tunnel, onto the LIRR Atlantic Branch to Jamaica, along with connections to the Rutgers Tunnel, the Nassau Loop, the 63rd St tunnel to Queens, and the Bronx.
No one knows how either would be paid for. The Metro East group believes a long term plan, which attracts support from a wide variety of city and suburban interests, is more likely to receive funding. The MTA believes getting the first thing done is more likely to generate support for getting the next thing done.
Explanations as to why these improvements cost so much were not sufficient, in my view. I did not get the feeling that MTA planners are up nights trying to figure out ways to cut costs. Their main concern appears to be zero local construction impact, and a high enough estimate so there will be no overruns. But once the money is there, the contractor will figure out a way to get it, so there is no possibility of doing it cheaper either. I pointed out that the Nassau loop cost $105 million per mile in today's dollars, the 6th Avenue subway cost $300 million per mile, and the LA subway cost $200 million per mile. They claimed that these comparisons are misleading.
The total income of all city residents is about $252 billion per year. The city budget is about $33 billion per year, with another $8 to $10 billion in federal and state tax dollars collected here and spent on "more deserving" people elsewhere. At these prices, it will be hard enough to afford the 2nd Avenue line the MTA proposes, let alone the entire Metro East proposal.
Who is that renovates stations, NYCT employees or outside contracotrs?(or both). I presumed it was outside contractors but the workers always wear NYCT safety vests and a plaque at 36th Street in Brooklyn says that the work was comlpeted by NYCT. thanks
Bryan- It is both. Some stations wre done in house and others by outsiders. It depends on the lowest bid. cleaners- call the station manager whose name is near the booth. The vests are requried for working near train traffic.
36th Street- ah yesh - what a scrubbing/cleaning/glazing job they did back in 1996! They had guys up there on the scaffold car w/what smelled like the worst kind of cleanser known to man (muriatic acid?)
in protective gear, masks, goggles, the whole nine yds. They had wire brushes and were scrubbing away to beat the band. It came out GREAT.
And it wasn't that colorful to begin with...
They did well. Ditto for Pacific Street (neat sea foam green accents)
Now, can they duplicate this feat at DeKalb Avenue? We shall see.
When will they ever get to Chambers Street BMT, my pet dungeon.
Ö wot a sorry mess that is!
Wayne
About how often are stations giving a hard cleaning with a mobile wash team and tile cleaning unit. there are several stations in which the wall tiles seem extremely dirty. At 36th Street in Brooklyn, there is graffitti that has been on the southbound local track wall for weeks! thank you, and could anyone report or tell me how t report this ugly site.
Bryna- thanks for caring. I'd call the field manager whose name is posted near the booth.
There was an article in the Boston Globe this morning which said that the Paris Metro was going to experiment with "station deordorizers" (i.e. perfume). The test stop will be Les Invalides which has a reputation for being one of the more odiferous.
The renovation work being doen at these two stations seems to be taking forever! What is the timetable for completion and does anyone know if they are anywhere near on schedule. thanks
You mean they haven't finished yet?!
The last time I was in Union Square was April '97. What's going on?
Even better -- I used the exit from the shuttle on the northwest corner of 42nd and Madison in June of 1996. There was a sign there that said this station exit would be under constrction beginning on June 30, 1996 and continuing through the Spring of 2000. I haven't been back since, but I can wait to see how the MTA's four-year project is going to end up looking.
Last time I was there was November 7. They are still doing tilework in the mezz's and along the s/bound #6 track wall (putting up concrete blocks prior to finishing the wall). They were REALLY IMAGINATIVE for choosing the color scheme for the 4/5/6 walls: SOLID WHITE. C'mon, guys! And they still have to scrub-a-dub the sea green/powder blue/yellow ochre frieze down in the Canarsey line station although the new tile panels are up, they have to fill the gaps between em.
I'd say Union Square station is about 75% done, maybe a bit more.
14th Street/8th Avenue? That's a whole 'nother story. They did the platform surface (IND), but the wall's still a patchwork quilt. Looks awful. I guess they're going to do what they did at Canal and Chambers. The stairwell's partly retiled but much needs to be done still. The Canarsie line station - same as it ever was. Does anyone know what the plans are down there - i.e. are they going to put up new tile, fix up the old etc. If new tile, will it match the rest of the Canarsie Line stations (i.e. BMT geometric motif) or be a rehash of the mock IND (dual-contracts) style.
I'm going to ride this Saturday, I'll stop by 14/8th & take some pictures.
Wayne
Someone posted a note about legalities of subway depth.
I think what they were asking was:
Could a train go so deep that property rights and zoning restrictions could be avoided?
Like that giant water main that runs under NYC.
Could a train run from say Newark to La guardia, or La guardia to JFK, only, run so deep that it could cut a direct path without reguard for the property or topography above???
In theory, such a train could rise to or near the surface at its given destinations to avoid the Elevator issue.
Its a far out idea, and sounds expensive, but in theory, a lot could be saved by cutting a straight path through the grid, and by bypassing existing infastructure (Gas, Water, Phone, Electric, Steam, Sewage etc.) which are already in place. Not to mention other issues like property and zoning.
Imagine a super deep express train that runs in a straight line from World Trade to La guardia, or from The South Street Sea Port to Washington Heights. Or from the Upper West Side to JFK
Does not the giant water main go under someone's property, or does it follow along below an Avenue, like the cut and cover subway??
In theory, property rights in land extend to the center of the earth. So I think the water tunnel does stay mainly below streets, parks, and other city-owned property; in those cases where it doesn't, easements were presumably secured from the property owners. The payment for such easements is probably nominal, since the "fair market value" of such deep rights would probably be held to be correspondingly small.
Physically, a problem with truly deep tunneling would be to provide an adequate air supply for people in the tunnels. You would not want to dig the tunnel deeper than venitlation shafts could be practically built. Or even emergency exits - unless you had a redundant power supply that was absolutely guaranteed to work even if the main power grid went down, regardless of what happened on the surface, and such absolute guarantees simply don't exist.
Everybody did OK on Subway Quiz 1. Can you do Subway 2?
1. Name two stations where you can get IND, BMT and IRT trains within the same complex.
2. Name six two-level stations
3. Name the line that runs on the same street in two boroughs.
4. Name four stations named for nearby buildings.
5. Name a station you can take ANY line to via ONLY ONE connection, if needed.
6. Name the longest unused stretch of track.
7. What are the west, north, south and easternmost stations?
8. Which lines never run under or stop at a "Broadway"?
1. Atlantic Avenue and Times Square
2. 59 Street, 125 Street, 86 Street, 149 Street, 149 Street, and 59 Street.
3. N Train in Queens and in Manhattan.
4. Grand Central, Rockerfeller Center, 8 Street NYU, and Times Square
5. ?
6. The Sea beach Express Tracks
7. ?
8. The 4,5,6,Q,F,E,S Franklin Shuttle
1-World Trade Center(A,C,E,1,9,N,R) and Times Square(A,C,E,N,R,S,1,2,3,7,S,9)
2-63rd/Lexington, Wilson Ave(L), 5th and 7th(53rd), West 4th and 125th St/Lexington
3-A/C-Fulton St. downtown and in Brooklyn
4-8th-NYU(N/R), City Hall(N/R), Borough Hall-Brooklyn(2/3/4/5) and World Trade Center(A/C/E/N/R/1/9)
5-Times Square(A/C/E/N/R/S/1/2/3/7/S/9 stop there already)
B/D/F/Q to A/C/E @ West 4th, G to A/C at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, H at Broad Channel, J/M/Z to A/C at Fulton St, L to N/R at Union Square, Franklin Shuttle to A/C at Franklin Ave, 4/5/6 to Times Square Shuttle at Grand Central
6-190th(A), 241(2), Far Rockaway(A) and Coney-Stillwell(B/D/F/N)
7-Third track on Broadway El(J/M/Z)
8-H, 6 and Franklin Shuttle never stop at or run under a "Broadway"(the Times square Shuttle and the 7 count because Times Sqaure is the intersection of 7th Avenue and BROADWAY at 42nd, the L stops at Union Square which is Park Ave. and BROADWAY at 14th St.)
All the other lines run under a "Broadway" or stop at "Broadway" or "....-Broadway".
I got my "Broadway" on the "L" from one of my favorite stations of all
BROADWAY JUNCTION.
Let's have another quiz!
Wayne
I'll do my best..
1. How many switches are there on the system(You can find the answer by reading one of 12/16's evening posts)?
2. What 3 forms of transportation ran on Greenwich Avenue in Manhattan?
3. Tell me how I can run a train from Coney Island to 207th St and then to Coney Island without retracing my Brooklyn route?
4. Thoretcially, in midtown Manhattan, how often could you have an IND subway station.
5. Why can't R-44's, 46's, 68's or 110B's run to Jamaica Center?
Read each question CAREFULLY! There may be a "track" question:)
Here are the answers to Wayne's requested quiz.
The answers are:
1.There are 2,651 switches on the system.
2.The city's first el, part of the M8 bus and the A,C and E trains.
3. Coney(D), along Brighton, switch at West 4th, up to 207th St. Back down 8th to 6th Ave. IND on 'B' to Coney Island(via 4th Ave. BMT and West End line).
4. Because the longest IND stations are 660 feet long(2.5 blocks long in midtown Manhattan) you could theoretically have one every 3 blocks.
5. They cannot travel on the Broadway El, but there's always the Queens Blvd. 'E'!
> Why can't R-44's, 46's, 68's or 110B's run to Jamaica Center?
I know about the tight curve clearances and sideswiping possibilities of the R-44, R-46 and R-68, but I thought the R-110B at 67' long, didn't have that problem ....
--Mark
The R-68 is 67' long. And it can run to Jamaica Center, but on Queens Blvd.
With due respect, the R-68s are 75 feet long. If they were 67 feet long, as were the BMT standards, they could run on the Eastern Division.
I do believe that 75 foot cars be they R-44,46 or whatever have operated over the Jamaica Line curves at Crescent St.I don't recall if it was in regular service or some kind of fantrip.It must have been very interesting since it is hard enough for the 60 footers to get around that curve and was even harder for the Standards.Does anyone know if I am correct in this? Thanks again for all the info.
Redbird
I think they tested ok at Crescent and Cypress Hills (there's no sideswipe danger at Cypress Hills due to the gap between the tracks; not sure about Crescent). The 75-footers have a sideswipe issue coming into Essex Street. There's also a too-tight curve on the "L" just outside of Graham Avenue. Plus there's the matter of the 528-foot and 516-foot platforms on the Canarsie Line (and others).
Wayne
Isn't it true that truck placement can be a factor on tight curves? The trucks on the BMT standards were closer together, relatively speaking, and were further from the car ends than on other cars.
Re: 2 level stations, question #2 .... you posted your answers as ...
63rd/Lexington, Wilson Ave(L), 5th and 7th(53rd), West 4th and 125th St/Lexington
What about the elevated ones:
- W 8 St (D/F)
- Queensboro Plaza (7/N)
--Mark
I should have mentioned those. There are plenty more two-level stations on the system but I only wanted six. I didn't want to fry anyone's brain.
I also would like to know what are all the open-cut stations are. I know they aren't all on the Brighton line but I don't know where the others are.
The Sea Beach line is all open cut. So is the West End from the subway portal to 9th Ave.
I think that Gun Hill Road on the Dyre Avenue is sort of an open cut station. Part of Morris Park too (although the south end is above street level, the north end is underground!)
Sea Beach is open cut from New Utrecht to 86th Street. **8th Avenue** and ** Fort Hamilton** look like they may be surface.
Brighton Line open cut: Prospect Park, Parkside, Church, Beverly, Cortelyou and Newkirk.
Don't forget Botanic Garden on the Franklin Shuttle is open cut too.
Wayne
1-TIMES SQUARE-42ND STREET,FULTON ST-BROADWAY-NASSAU
2-86 ST-LEXINGTON AV
KINGSTON&NOSTRAND AVE 3 TRAIN
81 STREET-MUSEUM OF NATURAL HISTORY B&C TRAIN
NOSTRAND AV -FULTON ST A&C
WILSON AV L TRAIN
3-1&9 BROADWAY FROM TIMES SQ TO 242 ST-VAN CORTLANDT
4-CITY HALL N&R,WORLD TRADE CENTER E&C,66 ST LINCOLN CENTER 1&9,161 STREET-YANKEE STADIUM 4,B&D
5,6&7 NO ANSWER
8 -6,FRANKLIN AV SHUTTLE,
1.
a. Times Square, including its transfer to the Eighth Avenue line.
b. Fulton Street/Broadway (IRT) Fulton Street/William (IRT)
Broadway-Nassau (IND) and Fulton Street/Nassau (BMT).
xtra: Roosevelt Avenue also - the R qualifies as BMT.
2. I'll go you better:
a. 59th Street/Lexington
b. 86th Street/Lexington
c. 125th Street/Lexington
d. West Fourth Street/6th Avenue
e. Wilson Avenue (L)
f. Lexington Avenue/63rd Street
g. Fifth Avenue/53rd Street
h. 7th Avenue/53rd Street
i. 50th Street/8th Avenue
j. 145th Street/St.Nicholas Avenue
k. Queensborough Plaza (elevated station)
l. Bergen Street/Smith (lower level's abandoned)
m. Gun Hill Road/White Plains road (lower level's abandoned)
n. 9th Avenue B (lower level's abandoned)
o. 42nd Street/8th Avenue (lower level's abandoned)
p. City Hall N R(lower level's abandoned)
3. The 1/9 lines run along Broadway in both Manhattan and The Bronx,
4. City Hall, Borough Hall, Chambers St-World Trade Center,
Aqueduct (if you count the racetrack as a building),
Pennsylvania (Penn Station IRT), Grand Central.
5. I'd have to say "Times Square"
6. The Sea Beach Express tracks.
7.
North: 241st Street/White Plains.
South: Coney Island/Stillwell Avenue
East: Far Rockaway/Mott Avenue
West: Rector Street (1/9)
8. #6 Line, Franklin Shuttle, Rockaway "H".
Hope we've made the grade
As long as we're adding to the list of two-level stations, how about:
q. West 8th Street (Brooklyn D and F)
r. 72nd & Central Park West (B and C trains)
s. 81st & CPW
t. 86th & CPW
u. 96th & CPW
v. 103rd & CPW
w. 110 (Cathedral Pkwy) & CPW
x. Jamaica Center (E and J/Z trains)
y. Sutphin Blvd.
There's gotta be a letter z out there.
Yes there's a z):
Borough Hall on the 2/3 line!
Wayne
Uh oh ... we're out of letters .. there's the lower level of Nevins St Brooklyn (2/3/4/5) (actually, just a part of it which can still be seen if you transfer from uptown to downtown) .....
--Mark
Yes, and we forgot Nostrand Avenue, Kingston Avenue and Utica Avenue on the Eastern Parkway IRT. Shame on me! <|:-o We'll have to double up on the letters, old IND style (aa, bb, cc...)
Wayne
Well, I'm glad we found a few more, because I realized today that one of the stations I listed is not bi-level after all. Scratch 110/Catherdral Pkwy & CPW on the B and C lines from the list.
Well, I'm glad we found a few more, because I realized today that one of the stations I listed is not bi-level after all. Scratch 110/Catherdral Pkwy & CPW on the B and C lines from the list.
You can also include as two-level: Delancey Street, Utica Avenue(IRT), Nostrand Avenue (#3), and Kingston Avenue (#3). As for stations named after buildings, how about Museum of Natural History, City College, Hunter College, etc.
How about stations named for places, instead of streets? I don't mean dual-named stations such as 81st-Museum of Natural History.
-Hank
34th St.-7th Ave. was originally called, simply, Pennsylvania. At least the tilework on the local platforms suggests this.
How about Willets Point-Shea Stadium? I don't think Willets Point Blvd. exists anymore, at least not around Shea.
Then there's World Trade Center. Is Chambers St. referred to at all?
How about Times Square or Grand Central?
Try...
Roosevelt Island
Broad Channel
Rockaway Park
Willets Pt/Shea Stadium
Pelham Bay Park
Woodlawn
Morris Park
World Trade Center (E)
Bowling Green
South Ferry
Prospect Park
Brighton Beach
Sheepshead Bay
Howard Beach
Aquaduct (racetrack station)
Cypress Hills
Brooklyn Bridge/City Hall
City Hall
-Hank
Also:
Jamaica Center
Metro Center
Grand Army Plaza
Columbus Circle
Canal Street - Holland Tunnel
Union Square
Broadway - East New York
Canarsie
Flushing (Main Street)
Queens Plaza
Queensboro Plaza
Slattery Plaza (Woodhaven Blvd)
Newtown (Grand Avenue)
I didn't realize there were so many!
Mark
I almost forgot - Corona Plaza on the Flushing Line!
Those are all streets, or co-names, with the exception of Queensboro Plaza, which is not in my Hagstroms, although Queens Plaza is....
-Hank
The also runs on the same street in two boroughs- Broadway in Manhattan and Broadway in Queens.
I just received a letter from the TA-AFC group which says, in part:
1-day Unlimited Ride Time-Based Farecard will be introduced to the public on New Years Day January 1, 1999 ... valid ... from the time of first use until 3:00 AM of the next day ... e.g. if the pass is first used at 12:02 AM (just after midnight) Tuesday, it will be valid for use until 3:00 AM, Wednesday ... passback restriction is the same ... (as other unlimited MCs) ...
Well guys & gals I think that answers most of your questions on the subject ???
I don't speak, officially, for the TA or DOT, but the subject letter is on TA stationary, so it's pritty close to official ...
P.S. Also HEARD on the radio (yes Todd it was WCBS) that Rudy is still objecting to where the cards are sold.
Mr t__:^)
Thank you Mr. t for listening to WCBS... I read on the news wire that Rudy is asking for a reconsideration of the vote to restrict the card sales to "tourist spots" and include token booths as well.
Transit and Weather Together... this weekend!
The hard line stance by the TA against selling the one day MetroCard at station booths will result in more public harassment of the clerks. The front line employees always bear the complaints of the public for management blunders. The TA will make their clerks look bad if this goes thru.
So does this mean that if I bought a one day metrocard at 11:59 PM it would expire 3 hours and one minute later?
[So does this mean that if I bought a one day metrocard at 11:59 PM it would expire 3 hours and one minute later?]
No, only if you first used it at 11:59 PM. It doesn't matter when you buy it.
Good makes a point Todd !!!!
Sometimes we forget that some of you folks aren't employees or are infrequent visitors to this site, sorry about that :-(
After you purchase the card it is GOOD for about a year, the exact date that the card expires is printed on the back. When you make the first use of it the clock starts. The only exception are some of the LIRR Mail-N-Ride cards that expire at the end of the month vs. the regular 30 day time cards that expire after 30 consecutive days.
So, the one day card is good for the rest of the day that you start using it plus until 3 AM the next morning.
Mr t__:^)
So does this mean that if I first swiped a one day metrocard at 11:59 PM it would expire 3 hours and one minute later?
Yes, but the target audience for this card is tourists. It is also useful for people travelling the city for a day of errands, shopping, etc. For the most part, neither of these groups would start their day at night, and neither would will still be awake at 3:00AM.
It might be too difficult to implement a 24-hour card for technical reasons, or maybe they are worried about someone who uses it in the afternoon, then the next morning. Perhaps they would consider this "cheating".
You Railroad Clerks (opps sorry, forgot the current political correct title) we be happy to know that the MTA Board turned down selling the cards at the booth.
Stores and Hotels only, I assume a store within a hotel qualifies too? >G<.
They said news stands too. Let us hope that these include those news stands at Penn Station. Not to mention Atlantic Avenue too.
I really don't feel like hunting around for one when I arrive in town.
Maybe the locations of these vendors will be publicized. That's the least they can do for us.
Wayne
HAPPY HUNTING!
I have a feeling that if for instance the Card is available for sale at the World Trade Center newsstands (there's one right in front of the "E" train entrance, and another two pretty close to the N/R entrances) they'll be flooded with customers who want to buy a Card but don't buy anything else. Which will be the swift end of them selling the card unless something's in it for them. But for $4, how much can the MTA afford to pay the vendors? They are already complaining they will lose money on the one day card.
Ya get the feeling that this will be fixed ONLY when enuff people are SCREAMING aboutit that Pataki will (finally!) step in??
I'd guess that the MTA is expecting the vendors to sell the cards "as a service" which will also bring people to their stands and into their stores. Do the stores that sell the pay-per-ride cards make anything on them? My wife and I own a small retail store and we refuse to use our space to sell somebody else's product. What the MTA seems to expect is for a store to handle the cards, be responsible for them, and be responsible for the cash that they generate--all this with probably little or no profit.And this does not take into account the possible long lines that will interfere with the vendors' real business or the possibility of shoplifting while the store is overcrowded with people looking to buy a non-profit item. If you were in a rush (imagine that in NYC) would you go into a store if it looked over-crowded? Maybe we should ask the vendors.
What if you were to tell your customers that they could only by a metrocard if they also bought something else at your store?
You would probably get objections from both the customers and the MTA (who think they're doing the vendors a favor).Besides--you really can't force anyone to buy something other than what they want- which in this case is the card. If all the other MetroCards are as popular as the numbers show aren't the token booth lines shorter anyway? How can the MTA justify not selling their own cards? Maybe they are just worried that they will sell too many and lose cash flow? But isn't that what they said about the other cards? Can you say "surplus"?
The lines at booths: the people buy $3 metrocards. Many buy 2 or 3 cards- we do not have a repeat function so we have to go through all the steps for each card. We also still have people buying 1 token-and we see them 3 and 4 times in one 8 hour day.
Some newsstands at WTC already say tokens or metrocard with purchase only.
While not giving all the details- the process of changing shifts in a booth is quite involved. We must check the paperwork of the person whio is leaving and count everything to make sure we agree. We must also empty the turnstiles and count those tokens and make sure they are the same as the computer says we should have-if not it is back to the turnstiles for manual readings and then verify those against the computer. Good- we relax. No good- hello supervisor and booth audit!
We then sign the other person's paperwork and they can leave--oh yes, we alaso count keys, and check that eveyrthing that sdupervisor says is in the booth is really in the booth. Yes- relax, No-Hello supervisor!
Already we count: bills, change, tokens, 4 kinds of wrapped metrocards, senior citizen tickets, disabled tickets, block tickets, g.o. tickets, etc. we do all this with the booth open! banks, supermarkets etc. get to close for the shift change but we stay open unless there are two open windows in a booth when one window will close for the shift change.(stations such as Penn Sta, 5th ave/53rd, 59th columbus circle, etc.)
New York must be a tough town for making money. In real estate, small businesses, construction, every article I read about NY someone is complaining,"I can't make any money". Why doesn't the MTA just sell the card at the subway station or would that violate their policy about making things too easy for their customers?
If the MTA , "can't make any money" on the card do what everyone else does and raise the price of the one day pass.
The last time I was in the city I saw a TA adv. for a "Then & Now" MetroCard. It looked just like last years. Sure enough it's the same in every way except the expiration date ... so collectors beware.
Tourist, and other SubTalk friends it's a nice card for a souvenir with a photo of the Christmass tree at Rockafella Center '31 & recently.
Mr t__:^)
The best place to buy the Then & Now (a/k/a the Christmas Tree MetroCard) is at the Transit Museum gift shops (don't believe the ads that said you can get it at Rite-Aid, only a couple have them).
The gift shops are at:
The Museum in Brooklyn, The Visitors Center at 1560 Broadway (between
47th & 47th Streets) and at Grand Central. You can also get the Cloisters MetroCard holder at these locations (for $1.00 + tax)
Before any of you say "but it isn't open yet!!!" The Museum has set up their cart and display shelves directly in front of where the new store will be. The hours are Weekdays 8 AM to 8 PM (subject to change). Saturday I believe the hours are from 8 AM to 4 PM.
For anyone who does not know where the new store/cart is located, go thru the right side passageway next to the West Stairway. The store is to the left of the Station Master's office.
P.S. - To Museum Members: The 10% discount does not apply to Metrocard Purchases. People are always asking so I thought I
mention it.
One more thing - The GC store is now scheduled to open around Mid-January 1999.
I would like to get information about the proposed future uses of the 63rd Street tunnel connection to Queens. I understand that there is a lower level which was plaaned to provide LIRR access to the upper east side of Manhattan. At 63rd Street and 2nd Avenue there is a large ventilating tower with an adjacent lot now occupied by an antique dealer (this appears to be a temporary type setup). There is actually quite a large underground complex below the dealer (I remember that much of the tunnel excavation was performed from this site). I always thought that this was the proposed site of the LIRR terminal (the 2nd Ave subway could connect here and, in fact, part of the construction set in place subway type gratings on 2nd Avenue between 62nd and 63rd). I also recall that several years ago a right of way was approved for the LIRR to use one of its semi-active freight lines in Queens as a way to get to the tunnel. What further developments, if any, occured in this plan?
Can anyone provide information on this site and the tunnel in general?
Iam interested in its constuction. Are any pictures or plans available of the two level architecture?
Thanks for your help.
Tony
The 63rd St. tunnel(formerly B/Q, now S) is in the process of being connected to the Queens Blvd. subway(E/F/G/R) and is expected to throw a couple of lines out of whack(i.e.-the 'G' permanantly cut back to Court Square). Project should be done by the end of next year.
There was(is?) a lower level built (or planned and never built) intended for use by the LIRR for a new connection to Manhattan to a new eastside terminal. Never built.
There are a few pictures of stations on the already constructed tunnel
and some posts in the USENET index.
Stick around this borad, because this is a topic brought up QUITE often.
The 63rd St. East River tunnel is a two-level, four-track structure. The lower level was to be used by LIRR trains, but is currently unused.
So, the lower level just sits there, totally unused? Heck, is there even any acess to it at all, or is it sealed?
There is access to it from the Queens end and from stairways in the Roosevelt Island Subway station. Recently some Washington mucky-mucks toured the tunnel as sort of a 'Dog & Pony show' designed to shake loose some sheckles to finish the LIRR connection to Grand Central Station by 2011.
[There is access to it [the lower level] from the Queens end and from stairways in the Roosevelt Island Subway station. Recently some Washington mucky-mucks toured the tunnel as sort of a 'Dog & Pony show' designed to shake loose some sheckles to finish the LIRR connection to Grand Central Station by 2011.]
I had read some years ago that the lower level was partially flooded. Was/is that accurate?
I heard that a bit of pumping was necessary prior to the tour but this is common for river tunnels..
In relation to one of the previous articles about the transbus and the RTS, I have a question and some thoughts. I remember seeing transbus, the one with three axles and a low floor. I think I also remember seeing an RTS that looked exactly like the transbus with the difference being a high floor and two axles. This RTS looked similar to the current RTS II but the headlight and bumper arrangement was totally different, just like the one on the transbus. Could this have been the RTS I?????
There was never an RTS I. When GM introduced the roman numeral was intended to indicate the number of axles. At the time UMTA's Transbus specs were 3-three axles, low floor etc. GM, Flxible and AM General built Transbus prototypes, but Transbus never became reality. The RTS line never did drop the RTS II designation. In the early 1980's GM built an articulated RTS (series 04) prototype, but it never did go into production. This could have been an RTS III also.
The new nova rts buses that I have seen only in Nova promotional pieces have a bumper and headlight set up much like the trans-bus pictures that I remember. You may have seen the latest and greatest from Nova, the current owner of the RTS (Nova is now owned by Prevost/Volvo)
In the opening credits of "NYPD Blue", just as the credits end, you are made to believe you are in a subway train speeding out of a station and into a NYC police badge. Does anyone know what station that is?
That is UTICA AVENUE on the "A" line, as taken from a train on the Express track. Note the deep maroon tiles. The clip was filmed prior to the station renovations.
Wayne
I always chuckle a little when I see the start of NYPD Blue when the shot of the Flushing Line under renovations flashes on. This same scene has been used as long as the show has been on, and I guess that's about 5 seasons now, and the Flushing Line work is long done.
I didn't get all the information, so I'll ask you, did they shut down the 2nd St. El station last night because of the fire at 2nd and Arch?
As far as I know, no. While the area bounded by Market, Delaware (oops, Columbus Blvd), 5th and Spring Garden was closed for quite a while, I-95, Vine Expressway, Ben Franklin Bridge, and the el were untouched.
Ironically, Fireman's Hall, Phila's fire museum, is across 2nd St and about 150 feet north of the fire site.
The Utica Ave on the ``A'' line, that is used in NYPD BLUE , i think was also used in the movie ``The Warriors'' after the credits are done in the beginning of the picture. Can anyone verify that?
Charlie Muller.
The opening subway shots of The Warriors were done on the Fulton St. line. Nostrand Ave. is visible in one scene, with a few local stops also providing a backdrop. Of course, if they wanted to be really authentic, they would have filmed scenes set in the Bronx on actual IRT lines. Except for R-42s at the very beginning, all other equipment in the film consisted of R-27/30s with no continuity of route or destination markings.
The MTA finally "finished construction" of the Facts and Figures page, which is mostly about the subway.
Check it out, for those of you with technical but basic questions.
Does anyone have info on Divisions of the Transit
Police and the Corresponding BOro
I know that Manhattan is Division One
Can anyone advise about Bronx,Brooklyn and Queens
____________________________________________________
Also
Radio Lingo
I know that
1) BIE==Brakes In Emerg
2) TOS=Theft of Service
Are there any others??
Can you asssit me
Steve
The official NYPD WEBSITE has recently been updated to include all precincts and divisions including the Transit Police section.
This site is excellent for reference and icludes all Transit Divisions, the commanding officer and the stations/lines covered.
Also in the same thread is an item on surface transit police (buses/taxis)
Regards
Rob :^)
Here is a basic rundown of the NYCPD-TRANSIT DISTRICT LOCATIONS:
Manhattan South Division
1--Columbus Circle/59th Street on the A
2--Canal Street on the A
4--14th Street Union Square on the N/R Bway Line
MANHATTAN NORTH BRONX/DIVISION
3--145th St./St. Nicholas Avenue on the A
11--161/Yankee Stadium on the D
12--E. 180 Street/Morris Park (located in Spanish Style Depot fromerly of New York, New Haven and Westchester
QUEENS/BROOKLYN EAST DIVISION
20--Jamaica Ave/Van Wyck on the E (Formerly was at 169 Hillside in the Early 1980's, then Roosevelt Avenue on the E, F, G lines
23--Beach 116th Street Rockaway Park
33--B'Way East New York on the A
BROOKLYN SOUTH DIVISION
30--Hoyt Schmerhorn on the A
32--Eastern Parkway on the 4
34--Coney Island Stillwell Avenue on the D
Does anybody know if Peter Doughterys new 2nd edition of NYC subway tracks book is available yet? I think it was supposed to be out by mid December. I haven't seen anything posted yet.
I have the version number 1.5.4 which was released in July 1998.
Well worth the investment....
I ,too,have the Book,withthe Brighton Line Photo on the Front Cover,,excellant reference guide
Steve
I'll second that.
I have a copy of "Tracks of the New York City Subway,"Revised Edition dated 1997.Pages titled"Brooklyn N,P and R show the Culver line as B trackage from Ditmas Av to Coney Island. I believe that Culver trackage uses the old BMT "C"designation from Van Siclen to just north of West 8 St,then "A"trackage from West 8 to Coney Island on the lower level. At one time the Brighton tracks from Ocean Pkwy connected to both levels at West 8 St.This connection was broken sometime in the late 1950's I believe. Could anyone tell me if the Culver trackage from VanSiclen south has been changed from the BMT C
to IND B.Thanks in advance,Redbird.
Redbird posted the following message recently
===begin quote===
I have a copy of "Tracks of the New York City Subway,"Revised Edition dated 1997.Pages titled"Brooklyn N,P and R show
the Culver line as B trackage from Ditmas Av to Coney Island. I believe that Culver trackage uses the old BMT
"C"designation from Van Siclen to just north of West 8 St,then "A"trackage from West 8 to Coney Island on the lower level.
At one time the Brighton tracks from Ocean Pkwy connected to both levels at West 8 St.This connection was broken
sometime in the late 1950's I believe. Could anyone tell me if the Culver trackage from VanSiclen south has been changed
from the BMT C
to IND B.Thanks in advance,Redbird
===end quote===
My engineering drawings (dated 1991) indeed show it as you describe, however from riding through that stretch personally, I'm certain that all the automatic signals carry the B1 or B2 designation. It's likely that these were all changed around at about the same time that the Coney Island Master Tower was commissioned.
Cheers,
Peter Dougherty
Publisher
Tracks of the New York City Subway book
Peter.I havn't been down that way myself in a while and your info on this is probably more current then mine. Thank you for the prompt response.The Tracks is an excellent book and represents a lot of hard work.I'm looking forward to the new edition.I have a further question if I may. The IRT actually uses two systems to designate trackage.The Station Department uses the system that you show. The signal department uses a system tied to the line letter codes like the other two divisions,odd numbers are used for northbound and even numbers for southbound.I wonder if you plan on refencing the signal coding in your new book. Again thanks and best wishes.
Redbird
Redbird wrote:
===quote===
The IRT actually uses two systems to designate trackage.The Station Department
uses the system that you show. The signal department uses a system tied to the line letter codes like the other two
divisions
===unquote===
This is a good point. I got a note about that from a number of people, the most recent of whom was bdmnqr@aol.com a little while ago. There is a definite signal numbering scheme in place, and I presently *do* reference it (albeit briefly) in the more recent versions (1.5.5) of my book. I have the whole list of designations here in front of me.
Before I devote a page or more to this numbering scheme, however, I'd really like to know who still *uses* it to refer to track numbers. Train Operators, tower personnel and anybody else in operations uses the 1-2-3-4 designations that I use in the book. In addition, in the signal drawings that I have, they also use the 1-2-3-4 designations rather than the track numbers used on signal identification plates. I really believe this track numbering scheme is not used by anyone any more, although the line letters are very much in use, at least from the signal department's point-of-view.
For those interested the line letters are as follows:
BB Upper Broadway 242--96th
B Broadway 96--42nd
C Corona Main--Times Sq.
D Nostrand Flatbush--Franklin
E Eastern Pkwy Boro Hall--New Lots
F Lenox/West Farms Tremont--96th
J Jreome Woodlawn--125th
K Clark St Chambers--Boro Hall
L Lexington 125th--42nd
M Joralemon St Br, Bridge--Boro Hall
MM Original 1904 Route Times Sq.--Br.Bridge/City Hall loop
MV S.Ferry Loop between 2 switches
P Pelham Pelham Bay Pk--125th
V 7th Avenue 42nd St--S.Ferry
W White Plains 241st--Tremont
Cheers,
Peter Dougherty
Publisher
Tracks of the New York City Subway book
Thanks for posting that. I has wondered if you ever got my e-mail.
Funny thing, just yeaterday, I was using the 43rd St exit of the shuttle, and near the steel plate crossing, on one of those column markers like I had mentioned before, I saw an "S4" designation. I don't know if they officially changed it, but the signals themselves did say MM, at least back when I was gathering all the route letters.
Ron, the Second Edition will be out by mid january 1999 or by February 1 the latest. This is cause pete dougherty has work considerations. Mail yor money order or check now and peter dougherty will get it to you.
Charlie Muller.
Yup that's what the web site says:
http://www.quuxuum.org/pjd/trk-book.html
Hi folks,
Thanks to all for the very kind words about my book. The current version is 1.5.5, and only a small handful of copies remain in my stock. This version was printed around Labour Day and contains many changes since version 1.5.4 came out earlier in the year.
With regards to the second edition, I've hit a couple of small snags (nothing serious, but my time is now at a premium). I had planned on releasing it this month, but it looks like late January before it will be ready to hit a Mailbox Near You. The second edition will have all the yards, SIRT and PATH track drawings, and a re-drawn colour signs and signals page..
I am still looking for a couple of things that I would also like to include in the second edition, and that I have not been able to find thus far.
One, I need the locations of all towers and master Towers (my info is dated, but probably still usable). Second, I'd like info on power distribution and generation, typical voltage and current levels at different points and for different uses (I.E taction versus stations versus signaling, etc). Any help will be greatly appreciated!
Cheers,
Peter Dougherty
Publisher
Tracks of the New York City Subway book
Thank you all. All my Archer Ave. tokens are spoken for. I have tokens set aside for only those that I promised them to. The others have been referred to an alternate source. I do not do this for a living (selling my books and memorabilia) but it's been rewarding that I've been able to raise a fair amount for the March of Dimes without having to coerce friends and employees or shake down my grand daughters (kidding). I just wanted to thank everyone who has supported our fund-raising efforts in this way.
BTW - we still have books (((((((Hint))))))
and there is no truth to the rumor that we'll be selling redbird master controllers next year....
Thanks again
On Wednesday December 16, 1998 i brought two new books on subway systems. Here are the titles. ``Trains, Trolleys & Transit, A Guide to Philadelphia Area Rail Transit.'' by Gerry Williams Published by Railpace Company Inc. P.O. Box 927, Piscataway N.J. 08855. This book came out in 1998. The 2nd book is ``Transit Talk, New York's Bus and Subawy Workers Tell Their Stories.'' By Robert W. Synder. This book came out in 1997. You can get a copy of this book at the New York Transit Museum, MTA New York City Transit, 130 Livingston Street, Room 9001, Brooklyn New York 11201. The Transit Museun co-published this book with Rutgers University Press, New Brunswick New Jersey.
Charlie Muller.
How is the coverage of the Regional Rail operations??
Steve FDNY, i did not get a chance to really get into the book about the SEPTA.
Charlie Muller
Charles ,Can you take a look an let me know about Regional Rail Ops Coverage
Steve FDNY, I do not have the book with me today Friday dec 18. The best thing is to try to get the book or maybe someone else can answer, cause sometimes i do not always bring the book with me to work where i use the computer to get in the subtalk.
Charlie Muller.
The section on the regional rails is VERY comprehensive and is perhaps half the content of the book. The only thing missing is a good track diagram, but the narration covers many of the details.
As I described to someone previously, I thought I knew quite a bit about my own city's transit and rail operations. The book "learned" me a good bit that I didn't know. I would recommend it highly, especially for the bargain price.
(Forgive me if some of this is jarbled. My spacebar is acting funky today.)
Anyhoo, as part of my time-to-time musings I draw lines that don't exist on subway maps. I got to one of my many NYC streetmaps and was drawing the route of an imaginary #8. It was a crosstown line from 35th St(to avoid the Penn tunnels)and across the river into Queens and couldn't really think of a good street to put it under.
What street might you putone under?
Join it with the LIRR Montauk Branch, (with the recently closed stops at Maspeth, Fresh Pond, Glendale and Richmond Hill) which would become apart of the subway system. I always wished they had a 34th St crosstown line and that it connected with this RR branch. Perhaps they should convert a couple of the tracks and tunnels to subway, building stations at the avenues, and connect it to these tracks, instea of waiting to connect them to 63rd St.
Years ago there *was* a plan to transfer the LIRR Montauk line's Queens portion to the subway. It would have been part of a "superexpress" to previously unserved sections of southeastern Queens. Neighborhood opposition in the Glendale area killed off the idea, with the city's fiscal crisis of the middle 1970s possibly also playing a part.
Today, there really doesn't seem to be a sufficient employment or population base along the line to make a subway conversion a viable idea.
My only thought is there is a City Impound yard near one of the stations (right under the BQE Bridge with the Polish name). Would be great with Public transit to bail out your car.
Yesterday I was in car# 2316 on the 1/9 line. It was the car with the conductor. I had never seen this before, where you can't go into the next car. Yet the conducter is inside this little room. What is that?
Did you look at the other end of the car? There was an exit there. What you were likely looking at was the transverse cab.
Hmmm ... then how do passengers in the end cars walk into the first 5 cars of the 1/9 train to get off at South Ferry if the conductor is using a transverse cab in the 5th or 6th car? Is the train held longer at Rector St to allow pasengers to change ends?
--Mark
That's an excellent point. You would hope they do exactly that.
I just ended a week on the 1/9 line. The transverse cabs do present a challange dealing with South Ferry. What they should do is have a Conductor at Rector St. who ushers the customers to the front half of the train. I have never seen a bulletin authorizing the operating Conductor to take the time at Rector St. to usher customers to the front of the train. I don't understand why there is no clear cut policy on dealing with this situation. There was a Memo issued this week regarding the issue of allowing passangers to pass thru the transverse cabs a South Ferry. It states to the effect that all doors related to the transverse cab should be secured open and to allow, not only leaving customers thru, but boarding customers also. But you may not find this to be the situation if you were at South Ferry. Ultimate safety on the train rest with the train crew and not a memo.
As transverse cab are new to the 1/9 line, I predict that there will be many more memo's issued until the kinks are worked out, and a way to secure the cab doors in the open position devised. :-)
I agree with you.This seems to be something of a hit and miss procedure. Some conductors make the announcement at Chambers St and some at Rector St. Some give passengers time to walk up,some don't. Some make the announcement after they leave Rector St which makes it very difficult for anyone in the lasts cars to get to the front before South Ferry.If the doors between the 5th and 6th cars are now blocked by full width cabs it become impossible to do this when the train is moving.
These are all very good points. In a recent NYTimes article about the phasing out of the railfan window and transverse cabs, an offical with the MTA was quoted as saying "Our job is to get people to a certain place" In response to people angry about the little jail cell-like peep hole used in transverse cabs.
I remember when I started as a Conductor in 1991, our class was told that at Rector st we had to walk along the platform and see that everyone was off the train in cars 6-10. At our Train operators union meeting this past Wednesday, someone brought up the point about passengers walking through the transverse cab.Hopefully something will be done.
That must be one of the R62a's they have joined in a five-car bunch.
#2331-2-3-4-5 is another one. No doubt they've sealed the "A" end of #2316 into a transverse cab. (his mate should be #2317, followed by #2318, #2319 and #2320 at the other end).
Wayne
On Route 110 in Farmingdale, just north of Conklin Street and right next to an LIRR bridge over Route 110, there are two sets of old, abandoned concrete steps that lead up to track level. I checked it out, and there is no sign that there ever was a platform up there remaining.
Does anyone know if this was ever an operating station, and if so, when it was opened, and when it was abandoned, and what its name was, and any other details?
That is (or was) the Republic LIRR station. It was abandoned in the 1970s. With all the new development up and down the Route 110 corridor maybe they should reopen it with a connection to a bus line. Don't know if there's room there for the manadatory parking lot, though.
BTW- got my first look Fri Dec 11 at the All New Improved Huntington Station. WOW!!! What a job they did! 5-story parking garage (looks a bit like DC' metro's Prince Georges Pza.) and all - neat walkways over New York Avenue (with red, orange and purple decorations). Pretty impressive. One day I'll go back there during daylight and explore it further.
Wayne
You're right about the station - it was called Republic. However, it was not abandoned till about 1986, when the Main Line to Ronkonkoma was electrified. It was never an ordinary commuter station because it is located away from any residential areas. Most of its customers were reverse commuters who traveled from Queens, Brooklyn, and Manhattan to work in the now-abandoned Fairchild Republic factory. That's why the station did not have the typical large parking lot.
I stand corrected! I thought it was closed at the same time Grumman was. BTW - the new Conklin Street is under construction (the old "S" curve section is still there up to New Highway) - the Farichild building is gone and the survey markers for the curbs are in place. Looks like a few months (maybe 6) from completion.
Wayne
[You're right about the station - it was called Republic. However, it was not abandoned till about 1986, when the Main Line to Ronkonkoma was electrified. It was never an ordinary commuter station because it is located away from any residential areas. Most of its customers were reverse commuters who traveled from Queens, Brooklyn, and Manhattan
to work in the now-abandoned Fairchild Republic factory.]
This was a case of fairly decent timing - the aircraft factory went belly-up just about the time the Ronkonkoma line was electrified and the station rendered obsolete. It's interesting to speculate whether the LIRR would've built a high-platform station at Republic if the factory had remained in business.
As Wayne mentioned, there is quite a bit of commercial development along the Route 110 corridor, which could in theory make a reopened Republic station useful for reverse commuters. But even leaving aside the issue of shuttle buses, expanding reverse commuter service is problematic as the main line has only two tracks east of Floral Park.
As it is at Republic - it's a one-lunger through there all the way to
Deer Park where it becomes two tracks again.
They DID build a high-level platform at PineLawn, as short as it is.
Wayne
[As it is at Republic - it's a one-lunger through there all the way to
Deer Park where it becomes two tracks again.
They DID build a high-level platform at PineLawn, as short as it is.]
Last Wednesday evening, I was sliently cursing out the fact that the main line in mostly single-track east of Farmingdale. I was on the 5:41 out of Penn Station, heading for the Greenport connection at Ronkonkoma, when we came to a dead stop not far from the old Republic station. The conductor came on the P.A. to announce that the second train ahead of us (probably the 5:22 to Ronkonkoma) was diabled at Wyandanch because the brakes couldn't be released. Of course, the single track meant that we couldn't be routed around the stuck train, and we ended up sitting there for over an hour before the problem could be solved.
Is it true there was an LIRR station at Jamaica Ave. on the mainline from Penn. Sta. called Westbridge? If so, how big was it, what purpose did it serve and when was it abandoned?
Yes....you're right. The old Westbridge Station was located where the Main Line crosses over Jamaica Avenue. The station opened in the early 19-teens but was closed by World War II (I'm looking at a 1941 station listing that shows no other stations between Kew Gardens and Jamaica).
It was a small station built to serve to immediate neighborhood in the vicinity of Jamaica Ave. and 127th St. The opening of the Jamaica Ave. elevated, which passed high over the LIRR tracks, no doubt siphoned away much potential LIRR patronage.
Between which stations on the Pt. Jeff line did the Kings Park spur branch off on?
The Kings Park spur branched off just east of the Kings Park station, which would put it between K.P. and Smithtown. There are traces of it still visible on the grounds of the former Kings Park Psychiatric Center, but the connection to the Port Jeff line, which was somewhere behind the K.P. fire house, has been severed. There is no trace of the grade crossing at Main Street but you can see a little bit of the R.O.W. near Patiky Street and Okst Street. More visible if you go off into the woods on the KPPC grounds. This was probably another one of those coal spurs that the State Hospitals had (Creedmoor, Pilgrim and Central Islip all had rail spurs).
Wayne
Speaking of state hospital spurs, there no longer seems to be any trace of the Central Islip spur visible from the main line - in fact, I can't even figure out a likely route for the right-of-way.
Basically you start where the smokestacks are (on the hospital grounds) and work your way towards the railroad from there. These spurs were used for coal deliveries to the hospital heating plants. While I don't doubt that there's no trace of the CI spur left now, I did see a tiny bit of it crossing a road after a round of golf at Gull Haven (on the hospital grounds). Saw this on the way out of the facility, must have been back around 1990 or 1991...
Wayne
Also on the main line between Woodside and Forest Hills, there was Rego Park. Does anyone know why Rego Park was abandoned and when?
Rego Park looked like it was on the Main Line, but it was actually part of the old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch. From White Pot Junction, just west of today's Forest Hills Station, you can still see the remnants of two tracks outboard of the existing ML Tracks 3 and 4. These tracks were the Rockaway Beach Branch, which turned geographically south at White Pot and continued all the way to the Rockaway Peninsula. Rego Park Station was at the 63d Drive bridge, just west of White Pot. Only Rockaway Beach trains served it.
In 1956 the Rockaway Beach r.o.w. south of Liberty Avenue became part of the subway system. The remaining remnant from Rego Park to Ozone Park became the little used Ozone Park branch, abandoned in June 1962, when service was down to one train each way using a single track. So to answer the question, Rego Park station was abandoned in 1962, and all traces are gone.
There have been ideas about re-opening the old Rockaway line to provide service to Kennedy Airport, but neighborhood opposition (principally in the Rego Park area) and other factors doomed them before anything could be done. Presumably the start of construction on the entirely separate Port Authority Airtrain means that the Rockaway line is gone for good.
On Wednesday,12-16,I was waiting for a downtown train at 72st and Broadway. I had just missed a downtown #1. I waited approximately 9 minutes for another train. A #3 arrived on the local track.I boarded the train and the conductor stated that the train was making all local stops to South Ferry because of a delay in #1 service. I think it was all unnecessary. All they had to do was tell the passengers who wanted stops south of Chambers st to transfer for an N or R train at Times Square. BTW, this was at 8:45 pm. I would understand the re-route if it was sometime during the midday hours.
>> I think it was all unnecessary<<
What about customers waiting down the line below 42nd St. Or even south of Chambers?
They also wanted to get a train in service north bound to cover the stops before Chambers northbound as well??
I rode from 59th to 66th or 72nd on a 3 once which was running local. This was during midday, however. Conversely, I have also ridden on a 1 which was running express. And to top it all off, I have seen a 3 on the local track and a 1 on the express track at the same time! Go figure.
Mike, forgive me for being annoyed with your posting. I realize that for most here, this subject (trains) is a novelty, a hobby, or a passion. However, don't confuse your interest and limited knowledge of the subject with the ability to make informed, split-second decisions on re-routing service or running a railroad. There are considerations far beyond what seems to make sense to you, when there is a service disruption. Things like:
** Maintaining a flow of trains in both directions,
** Providing alternate service around the disruption,
** Having equipment in proper place to resume normal service,
** Avoiding paralyzing congestion at terminals
** Having crews, despite diversions, in place for normal service.
The console train dispatcher who's decision you are questioning, made his decision based on years of experience (which you do not have), with considerations you didn't take into account and is held accountable for those deccisions, which you are not.
Train dispatching is not my field and every once in a while, during a disruption in service, I think of adding my two cents about what 'should be' done. Then, I think that I would not want that console train dispatcher or a train buff telling me how to move a stalled or derailed train either. Then I keep my mouth shut and go with the decisions made.
Please do not be offended by my comments. I love talking trains with buffs any time. I just see red when a buff says he knows the expert was wrong and that he could do it better.
Hey Steve, you should put in a suggestion stating that when there is a delay of less than 10 minutes,regardless of the line,lets re-route anything and everything in order to provide service. Iwas only on the platform for 9 minutes before the 3 came in.Maybe if a Brooklyn bound G train is scheduled to arrive at Queens Plaza at 10:34 for example and is at Steinway st, Why don't we send an F train to plug that 3 minute delay via the Crosstown local. BTW I am offended by your comments.What do you mean limited knowledge of the subject? Are you calling me stupid or something?
No, I never said you were stupid. You don't have to be stupid to have limited knowledge of a subject. Obviously, I was not the only person who found your suggestion without merit.
How do you know the delay was only 9 minutes? The 1 line uses a 10 minute headway at that hour. It is entirely possible that a train stalled on the ramp from 103st to 96st. That would put a serious crimp in the service, no matter what. There's no easy way around that. IIRC, for downtown service, you'd have to cross over to the middle track at 137, then to the northbound local track past 103 (thus also delaying uptown service, which would be screwed up enough as it is) and wrong rail to 96st, and cross to the downtown express track, after crossing the uptown express track, which can't be done without a reverse move that would interrupt service on the Lenox line as well.....
-Hank
This seems like a perfectly normal and reasonable service
adjustment. What's the problem?
The problem is since I missed a #1 train 9 minutes earlier there was no need to re-route a Brooklyn bound 3 train. If the delay was perhaps 15 minutes or more then I think it would make sense to re-route a train to South Ferry.Are passengers that board between South Ferry and Cortlandt st that special that they deserve some other train as soon as there is a problem? Especially at that time of night? I don't think so. Let me give you an example,suppose there is a big delay in Queens bound N train service. Do they immediately send an R train to Astoria? Never.
The simple answer to your question is 'NO' since diverting an R train would create a hole in 'R' service. A more practical solution (if the hole in service were large enough) would be to take a southbound 'N' and discharge it and turn it northbound. However, this is by no means analogous to the original situation you referred to. Running an express via the local tracks to cover a hole in local service is done frequently and most customers accept it as necessary even if it does not benifit them.
I understand what you're saying in terms re-routing an express to a local.It's happened to me several times before.I'm not against that.I just think that the decision to send the train to South Ferry during non-commission hours was made too hastily.Who knows maybe they changed their minds by the time the train got to Chambers st.I got off at 34st.At that time of night that train was probably scheduled to lay-up at Livonia yard since the #3 is not a 24hour line.Thats why I stated that they may have changed their minds.Also, I doubt that if the train went to South Ferry, it would procede north all the way to Van Cortlandt Park to cover the delay in #1 service.
I'm going to stick my neck out on this one. I will be the first to admit, as a MOTORMAN, my comments are biased but here goes: I have a schedule/work program. I want to follow it. I want to go where I am scheduled to go. I don't like being late, I want my full lunch period, I want my recovery time between trips so I can be alert at all times, and I want to finish on time. Just like you do in your job. In the case of the slight delay Mike described, the gap station dispatcher, not Control Center, makes the decision on a reroute. The gap station dispatcher, will tell Control what he/she did. In the case of a blockage, the Control Center makes the decision on reroutes. In my opinion, all that had to be done was have the #3 make local stops to Chambers St. & have the #1 train which was late make express stops from 96 St. to Chambers St. True, I'm not a dispatcher, and yes, I'm paid to do and not to think. But in the case of this reroute, you are robbing Peter (#3 customers going toward New Lots Ave) to pay Paul (#1 line customers). Now # 3 customers have a delay since their train got rerouted to South Ferry. In my duties, working the road as a MOTORMAN & Conductor for over 19 years, I, of course, been rerouted numerous times. Just a few weeks ago, I was rerouted to 95 St. They bought me straight in (1 Track) at 95 St. As soon as I got out of the cab, I could see thru all the storm doors headlights of an R at 86 St.---2 minutes away. So my customers who wanted to ride with me down the West End Line got inconvenienced and many lost their seats at 36 St. to stand on a crowded B train. How many times was I rerouted to Stillwell from Bay Pkwy., and a B train pulled in beside me just as I was changing ends at Stillwell with another one waiting at "The Creek" for me to leave to make room. Just a week ago Friday, I was rerouted to Stillwell N from 36 St. My train at Bay Pkwy has an 11 minute relay at Bay Pkwy. while I have a 21 minute recovery time. Because of the reroute the next arrival had to take the place of my train going back: just 3 minutes relay time. Needless to say, that train left Bay Pkwy late as well as the next scheduled interval because my train was missing. So now, you plug a hole in N service and have a delay in M service. Again, robbing Peter to pay Paul! When I got to Stillwell, I needed to go to the toilet. The dispatcher for the N line was worried I went down to Nathans! Excuse me: we are people, not machines! So now I get back to Bay Pkwy., am right behind another M train which left almost 10 minutes late for short relay (my train still missing) : the second late M train with me right behind. Now my conductor and I left Bay Pkwy 10 minutes late on the train we had from Metropolitan, lost our recovery time and lost 10 minutes off our lunch period. We were tired: we were on that train for 3 hours by the time we got back to Metropolitan. With stopping, going, being alert for grade timers & speed limits, that is like sitting behind the wheel of your car on the LI Expwy. for the entire length in traffic! Us train crews would like a little consideration too, to be treated like professionals which people tell us we are. How many of you sit behind your collective desks for 3 hours straight without a little break to stretch your legs? Or have to go to the bathroom when you get to a certain time or place?
Thank you Bill Thank you Bill. Finally a voice of reason. I have an idea: Lets say there is a 7 minute delay in Bronx bound D service. Why don't we send a Queens bound F train to 205st to plug the delay in D service????????????????????? AT 3:00AM THAT IS! HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!!!!!
At 3am, you might. Depends on your headways, and the length of the delay. BAD is waiting at 23st and B'way for 45 minutes for a 'N'ever train, and finally they announce the delay, 'of undeterminete time' (yes, that word)and the next train through is a 6-car G train....
-Hank
Mike, once again you are proposing an outrageous proposition to prove an inane point. Of course an 'F' train would not be re-routed at 3 AM, creating a 40 minute hole in F service to plug a 7 minute delay in D service. The 7 minute delay would stand. At that hour, there is little that can be done about delays.
As I stated in an earlier posting, delays are very fluid situations and there are many possible solutions, short and long term which can be used by train dispatchers. They are, at best, judgement calls that are made on the spur of the moment. Usually, they help to resolve the situation but other times, the situation may change and the solutiion employed was not the best, in hindsight.
As for Bill's response, I understand his positon as his time between runs is important ot him. However, the needs of the train crew and the needs of the public may sometimes be at odds with one another. For example, if there were a delay in northbound A service, a northbound C might be re-routed. Instead of terminating at 168th St. it will be sent to 207th St. If you are the crew and you are scheduled for a lunch break or scheduled to finish when you get off the train, you might not be happy about the re-route but if you are on that C train and the next northboung A train is 20 minutes away, I'm quite sure you'd think that the crew's lunch could wait. By the same token (parden the pun) Bill may not be happy getting a "No Lunch" or a "Late Clear" that day.
Abolutely, sometimes the needs of the public & the needs of the train crew are sometimes at odds. But we are told to come to work well rested. Fine. But, if you don't get your scheduled break between runs & are "in & out" all day, you could easily make a mistake in judgement which may cause a station overrun, or "run" a work gang, etc. When you drive your car, police tell you to take a break once in a while. The same should be true here. If I am a professional, I wish to be treated like one, not like the machines we operate!
It's certainly true that you have to wait the full brunt of the delay before they reroute another train, and the delayed one is right behind it. (this happens to me at Myrtle waiting to go towards Metropolitan. It takes a long time before they will reroute a J or Z, and then when they do, the M is right behind it) What good is this? You would think that with all the work they did everywhere to upgrade communications, they could manage it better than this. If I could conceivably call a freind at another station down the line to tell him of a problem, then why can't the people sitting in the control booths get information to one another faster.
And they do seem to prefer some lines over others when it comes to reroutes like that.
Towers do not communicate with each other as well as they should. I may be delayed by a train going out of service at one end of the line, yet when I get to the terminal, my dispatcher asks me where did I lose my time, because the info on my lateness was never passed up. This was very prevalent long ago when I worked the D: it was like 2 lines! Somehow, passing info down the line somehow got lost between W4th & DeKalb.
Something like this has been happening on the M almost every day. At Myrtle, they often hold it not only for two expresses, but then also a Manhattanbound J (reverse peak direction in the PM rush). Last week the conductor was complaining that they hold us for so long, and then he gets aked why he's so late. I think it's ridiculous that the reverse peak J gets priority over the peak direction M.
Then on the other hand, if I manage to catch the J ahead of it, hoping to connect to the M before that, it is often blocked out of the station until the M leaves and makes the turn onto Myrtle. That is also ridiculous. In order to make them connect, the it has to be operated manually. Maddening. The Myrtle el to Jay St should have been left as the primary Myrtle service. Then I could just run up and catch that, and they could hold the M's or not replace them when delayed as much as they want.
You are absolutely correct. One of the problems there is there is no Tower Operator at Bway Myrtle. It is controlled from the ENYD Master Tower. When your tower is where the trains are, the towerman has a better feel for what is going on. But being that the tower is at ENY, many times they forget those red lights on the board are trains, with passengers, with a schedule. The purpose of a Master Tower is to have fewer towermen man more interlockings from a Central Location. The TA saves on labor costs, while the capital program pays for new signals, cables, communications, etc. Great concept, but bad in practice.
Do you have a list of towers /master towers and the lines they control. It would be a great addition to this site- even if you just have your division, someone else might have the other.
ENY Master Tower controls the following: Marcy, Bway/Myrtle, Metropolitan, entrance to Fresh Pond Yard, all switches north & south of Eastern Pkwy., entrance to ENYD., Alabama Ave., Crescent St., 111 & 121 Streets on the "J", and Atlantic Ave. on the "L".
Thanks bill. Do you listings for any other tower/master tower?
59st Master tower controls 59st Columbus Circle,125st,135st,145st,72st spur tk.Queensboro Master tower: N line from Ditmars blvd to 11st. cut,#7 line from Queensboro plaza to south end of Hunterpoints ave.I'm not sure if they control the train order signal at the south end of Vernon-Jackson ave.
Murphy a/k/a/ 38th St. Master Tower. So named for Towerman Joe Murphy who was in the reserves. He was killed a number of years ago in the Persian Gulf in Operation Desert Storm when his unit was activated. He was an older gentleman with several children. I believe he was killed running over a land-mine while he was driving a jeep. Stations are: 36, 59, & 95 Streets/ 4th Ave. Old Sixth Ave. Tower & associated new home signals were just cut in between 59 St/ 4th Ave. & 8th Ave. on N line. Murphy controls that too. Stillwell Tower in CIYD controls the Brighton Line from Newkirk Ave. to , Stillwell Terminal, all moves to/from Stillwell & CI Yards and all moves within CIYD. (ENYD & FP have hand throws). DeKalb controls: itself, Pacific, leads to/from Manhattan Bridge, Lawrence, Home signals at Court St., and Brighton line to Newkirk Ave. City Hall controls the Nassau cut (where the M goes its' own way, but you must punch at Court St. CORRECTLY, the entire Broadway BMT, but they can give local control to Whitehall, 57/7, & Lex/60th St. Essex controls the entire Nassau St. route. Essex & City Hall were actually the first of the Master Towers before it was in vogue to call them that. Queensboro Plaza controls 11th St. cut (where N&R seperate), Queensboro, all #7 line from Hunters Point to Woodside, BeeBee Ave., & DITMARS Blvd. 111 St. on the 7 controls the yard, 111 St., Willets Point & Main St.. Someplaces may not have homeballs or switches, but they do have model boards & holding lights at various stations. The West End line form 9th Ave to Bay 50 st. has local control, but a Master Tower plan is in the works. New concept on signals for safety reasons, but it will slow the railroad down a little more in case of signal trouble: When an automatic signal has to be keyed by, the train operator will have to stop on the insulated for a full 10 seconds before the stop arm will go down. I believe I have most of this right, maybe mike can correct items that I may have overlooked/incorrect info.
Thanks Mike and Bill. Does anyone have the IRT list?
Indeed you are correct!BTW, I want to re-route a Queens bound R train to DITMARS blvd to plug a 4 minute delay in N service, at 5:10pm.
How are you measuring the delays? The schedule time difference, the time from the last 'regular' train to the first 'reroute', or the time from the last 'regular' train to the next train on the delayed line?
-Hank
Don't confuse apples and oranges. A delay is the deviation in time from the schedule. A hole in service is the extended time you have to wait for the next train during a long delay. You can have trains running 20 minutes late that come 5 minutes apart and there is no need for a re-route, However, a protracted hole in service needs to plugged if possile (Mike's sarcasm not withstanding)
right....that's why I never understand the '30 minute delays' on the Ferry...it only runs every 1/2 hour, so.... Have we been talking about a hole, or a delay? This all started with a discussion on the 1/9 and the 3. Perhaps thaere was a problem on the 3 into Brooklyn that accounted for the reroute? We have no confirmation of what the cause of the delay was, do we?
-Hank
The problem was on the 1 line because the 3 was rerouted onto the local at 96st making all stops.A Brooklyn bound 2 passed us along the way.
Wouldn't it be a good idea to plunk down part of the surplus for part time tower operators then?
I believe if the Met ave bound M train has the line-up(signal) at Myrtle ave, then because of the design of the interlocking machine,the J train cannot enter BWY Myrtle.A couple of years ago, I used to work the J on Mondays,and I used to have to wait to get into Myrtle ave sometimes because the Queens bound M was crossing in front of me.
I only recall one instance where a J or Z was re-routed to Metropolitan ave;about 6 years ago. I was the conductor. It is very rare that a J or Z is sent there.
It's been a month since I've been to the city, but it's time for another weekend of Transit & Weather Together. Does anyone have any good information on when/if there is consistent use of the new LIRR bilevels on weekends, especially Saturday afternoon? I'm going to try again for a ride...
Saw one last night on the 8:53pm Jamaica to Montauk job. I like the
LCD display signs. Interesting seating configuration, 2x2, not 2x3.
I like the LCD display signs. I wonder how long they will last?
Remember the roll signs on the M-3s? Those lasted about one month!
Don't know the weekend schedule.
PS: Are you available for first or third grade show and tell. My
kid's school is right by the Lawrence train station. You could cop a
ride on the Far Rockaway branch!
I'm not sure about the weekends. But if by chance you can be in the city on a weekday, you can catch the bilevels on Track One at Jamaica around 8:15 in the morning and ride them to Long Island City.
Dont know about Bilevels tho I hope one comes to Babylon at 902AM -
Tomorrow I will be in the City taking pictures of stations and seeing the Christmas sights (store windows, the Tree, etc.)
Want to hook up in the afternoon and hunt down some Slant R40s?
E-Mail me or post here...
Wayne
Boarded the S79 the other day and placed my Unlimited (7day) MetroCard in the slot and POOOF, it went into the transfer bin. Strange looks on the bus operator and my faces.
The Bus Operator had to remove the transfer catch bin, gave me back my card. I put it back into the reader and the display said "Read Error". At this point the driver waved me on.
On the way home, the card read but then beeped displaying $0.00. This driver demanded payment. Would not belive me that it was an unlimted card. I paid the fare, went to the token booth and got that silly envelope to mail in the metrocard.
Got back from the TA saying there was nothing wrong with the card so I'm out 3 days on my 7day unmlimted card.
This is the 2nd time I've had a card go bad on me and the second time a bus operator blamed me for trying to beat the system. The first time I transfered from the B82 to B64 and the card wouldn't allow me to board. The bus operator at that time said it was the 19 minute lockout and that I was trying to beat the system by swiping two people on an unlimited card. Had to walk up to 86th St from Bath Ave to get a token. Ugh...>End Vent Mode<
Would you believe I had a conversation with the TA Central Elect. Shop at Woodside (O/H Fareboxes, Turnstiles, etc.) and mfg (Cubic) this week ?
What is starting to happen is what I've suspected for a while now ... the R/W heads on the Fareboxes are getting worn. There's a cleaning PM that is done to both the Turnstile & Farebox, but the R/W head isn't going to last for ever. There's also a spring in the Farebox that keeps tension on the card so it gets a good read.
P.S. The system design is that it NEVER keeps the MC, i.e. it should always be returned, even if it's expired or out of $ ... S-O-O-O if it goes into the "Capture Bin" that means ERROR.
P.P.S. The Token Booth Agent should be able to tell you everything about the card, if it was a "Value" card you could just say it doesn't work so good, transfer the money to a new card. With "Time" cards I don't think they have a way to deal with a bad card, so it's send it to Brooklyn for a refund time .... sorry about that.
Disclaimer: I don't work for the TA or DOT, but am happy to shed a little on this problem for my friends !
Mr t__:^)
Just another perspective -- I've never had a problem. Perhaps they send the defective readers and cards to areas whose subway lines rely on the Manhattan Bridge. After all, they've gotten away with years of inferior service -- and the threat of future catastrophe -- without any political fallout. I guess they figure that transit riders in these areas will accept anything.
So I'm not the only one who's felt that the Brighton Line has gotten nothing but the pits vs all other lines from the MTA
Have you noticed how many groups are lobbying for laws which require a certain level of service -- more people covered by Medicaid, fewer children in a class, etc. Once these laws are on the books, they take priority no matter what the effect on other public services. They grab it first. With the city's economy up, everyone is trying to grap the money.
There is no law that says transit service must be decent, or that crowding must be limited, or that transit has to exist at all. So transporation is last in the queue. Remember that next time your state legislator takes credit for a law mandating this or that service. 30 years of below average spending on transporation, despite above average taxes, is enough!
[Have you noticed how many groups are lobbying for laws which require a certain level of service -- more people covered by Medicaid, fewer children in a class, etc. Once these laws are on the books, they take priority no matter what the effect on other public services. They grab it first. With the city's economy up, everyone is trying to grap the money.
There is no law that says transit service must be decent, or that crowding must be limited, or that transit has to exist at all.
So transporation is last in the queue.]
Part of the problem may be that transit lacks a committed band of supporters compared to these other services. Take smaller class sizes as an example. The teachers' unions are all for that idea, obviously enough, and are willing to lobby hard on behalf of laws requiring smaller classes. As I'm in an unusually un-cynical mood right now (could it be the Christmas spirit ... or simply the fact that it's a payday Friday afternoon?), I'll also observe that some parents feel strongly about that as well. Medicaid is pretty much the same. The hospitals and the health care unions are strongly in favor of more Medicaid $$$ and will do everything they can toward that goal.
Transit unfortunately does not stir these passionate feelings. While almost everyone in the city uses transit or is at least affected in some way by it, transit improvements are not a do-or-die goal for many people - sure, almost everyone wants better transit, but relatively few people are willing to make any effort toward seeing that come true. Even the transit unions are unlikely to do much; a big expansion in transit spending might be a major increase in hiring, which in turn might mean less overtime.
Well the best thing I've come across on the MTA/TA web site, subway schedules are gone. They suggest you can get one at your subway station and that they are working on the page(s).
For people who travel in the wee hours, the online schedules help me a lot. A lot when I needed make a connection and arrive at a certain time. For example I need to get to Grand Street (on the G or L (Lorimer) arriving at 7am Sunday. What F train do I get to make the connection. Am I better off with the B82 to the L (at least I'll know when the 82 is coming from the Guide a Ride but I'm not walking over to the F just to get a schedule).
Was there such a LARGE change to the current schedule that they had to take them down while they work on the new ones??
Yes I know I can call 330-1234, but it was much faster with a readable hard copy (you should see my penmanship) on the web.
[Well the best thing I've come across on the MTA/TA web site, subway schedules are gone. They suggest you can get one at your subway station and that they are working on the page(s).]
It's also worth noting that the site lacks a Mailto link or even a list of e-mail addresses. These sort of things are standard on any corporate site. Could the MTA and the NYCTA be trying to *discourage* e-mail? Inquiring minds want to know.
Their site is probably designed to be useless. The lack of feedback options makes it the worst governmental web site I've seen to date. By contrast the New York City web site is slowly adding more feedback and complaint options. What makes the MTA site even worse is that when it did display bus & train schedules, they were out of date or did not show an effective date. They must have some bizarre security concerns, like some web-kid will get into their systems and trap people in the metro-card turnstiles.
Anytime you want to leave feedback, leave it at the NYC web site:
http://www.ci.nyc.ny.us/
Trust me, it does get forwarded to any other city agency - I've seen it happen.
Feedback is less valuable than you think. When I E-mailed the Mayor that the condition of the Manhattan Bridge, and its impact on subway service, was hurting Brooklyn, his staff E-mailed back that it is the MTA's responsibility, not the city's. No doubt if I sent a similar E-mail to the MTA, they would say it's the city's bridge so whatever happens to the subway over it is not their problem. Fortunately, I run into MTA people in meetings and they tell me that directly, so I don't need to E-mail them to get this response.
Larry, when you asked Rudy's staff: did you tell them the "condition" is no trains running over the south side? Dumb question by me, but those guys never ride the subways, even his MTA board appointees, and probably think there is sparadic and unreliable service rather than none at all. And while you're at it remind them that Rudy's gang is closing the WillyB in May, and not the TA. You may suprise them of that fact!
(Closing the Willie B) At least I have some confidence that when the Willie B reopens, subway service will be available for the forseeable future. With the Manhattan, I'm just waiting for them to finish their billion dollar fix and find that the new structural elements have just redistributed the strain, something else is cracking, and sorry no more subway service.
[when you asked Rudy's staff: did you tell them the "condition" is no trains running over the south side? Dumb question by me, but those guys never ride the subways, even his MTA board appointees, and probably think there is sparadic and unreliable service rather than none at all.]
Some of the MTA board appointees probably think the Third Avenue El is still running!
They have been supposedly working on presenting both subway and bus schedules in a *new* way for the past three months.
The Queens Blvd. connection will not have a new station, right?
It's just the tunnel to the local and the express lines?
Correct, there will be no additonal stations between 21st Queens Bridge and the connection to the Queens Blvd line just after Queens Plaza southbound.
They did build a ventilation tower at 28/29th streets right next to the old Long Island City High School (Now the MultiNational High School). I wished for a station there since I work right down the block (the tower is built on the old site of a parking lot).
for one thing the connection from the Queens Blvd to the 63rd street tunnel was to bypass the congestion at Queens plaza so plans were never drafted for an additional stop between 36th st and 21st Queensbridge. I think the idea was for one express route to enter Queens plaza for instance E, and the F line to bypass and enter the city via the 63rd street tunnel. Anyone have any other info to throw in?
I think this actually was a case of poor planning -
While they're spending all of this money for this project, why didn't they just build a new station and hook it up with Queens Plaza?
The line-by-line descriptions provided for each line of the subway system are excellent! Is there similar information available for the regional rail network? I am particularly interested in knowing which lines are operated on elevated structures. Thanks.
I don't think that there are line-by-lines for any other rail system but the NYC Subway, but that's an interesting area to which this site can expand. Are you (or anybody else) interested???
There is one for Washington DC (put up last summer), and by early next year, one will be put up for SEPTA/PATCO by our line-by-line expert, Peggy Darlington.
Wayne
I don't think many rail lines in the NYC area other than the subway system have extended elevated structures.
There is of course the Park Ave. viaduct on Metro North. It emerges from tunnel at 97th St., but is actually on a stone embankment until (about) 110th. Then it is an iron "el" structure up to and including the bridge over the Harlem River.
Penn Station in Newark is also on an elevated structure, but that is about it, AFAIK.
Does anyone know of any other "el" structures on NYC-area rail lines other than the NYCT subway system?
There is also the Atlantic Ave. El structure in Brooklyn, that carries
the LIRR.
There is also the former New York,Westchester and Boston iron el structure in the Bronx which runs from 180 St-Bronx Park Station(next to E 180 St) to a junction with the Amtrak Northeast Corridor Line at about 174 St.Although no longer in use it is still standing.
I think this has been cut for the construction of a new bus depot in the neighborhood. It ends abruptly a block or two after the station.
--Mark
The former NYW&B viaduct ends at the property line of where the replacement for the Coliseum bus depot will be built, that is to say on the south side of E. 177th St. The part that no longer exists is the part that sloped down to meet the New Haven (now Amtrak) tracks, at a 3% grade (according to the NYW&B pages on this site). The structure over the traffic lanes of E. 177th St. is used as a support for a highway sign pointing motorists to the Sheridan Expressway.
You can see how the structure comes to an abrupt end by looking out the right window of a northbound #2 or #5 just south of E. Tremont Ave. station.
The LIRR has numerous stations on elevated structures.
To wit: Floral Park, Hicksville (Hempstead line, Main line),
Lynbrook, Rockville Centre, Baldwin, Freeport, Merrick, Bellmore,
Wantagh, Seaford, Massapequa Park (Massapequa's on embankment),
Amityville, Copiague, Lindenhurst and Babylon on the Babylon branch.
These are all concrete elevated structures. Numerous stretches between stations on these are either at grade or on embankments, though.
The Far Rockaway "A" and "H" lines are on former LIRR concrete elevated structures.
Wayne
One for the CTA's 7 Rapid Transit (L) Lines exsists. Go to the CTA web site (http://www.transitchicago.com) and then click transfer and then click CTA FAN Page and click the Rapid Transit detailed information.
The same guy also has a Metra Rail fan page, but I don't think that station descriptions are listed . The only Metra Stations that are Elevated anyway are the ones on bridges like Western Avenue.
BJ
Thanks for pointing out the site! I didn't know the Brown Line ran at grade near its north end - I thought only the Kimball Station was at grade. The photo of California station was particularly nice.
One thing - the line-by-line pages lack the detailed descriptive information like the kind Peggy (and in a few cases myself) provided for NYCT line-by-line pages. Maybe they'll be added down the road. Otherwise, very nice and very informative website. I DO hope they get the funding they need for their capital project - it would be a sin to close a whole branch of the system down because some pols got in the way...
Have a happy holiday!
Wayne
Do you have a picture of a GMC TDH5308 at Broad & Olney in Philadelphia with the center door open?
Okay I have decided to make a quiz this one is a pretty hard one.
1.Where is the Sharpest Curve in the entire system?
2.What are the open cut stations along the L line?
3.Which city has the only people pushers to push people in the Subway Car?
4.The 4, and the A are the longest Express in the World what is the Shortest Express when it is along it's Main Road Route.
5.Which 2 Routes in the city travel more along it's Brooklyn Road than in Manhattan.
Bouns: Which numbers are which to be used on the new Lines along the Lexinton and 7th Avnue Lines
1) The sharpest curve in the system is actually located in the NW corner of Jamaica Yard (as gauged by the Track Geometry car)
2) Wilson and Bushwick-Aberdeen
3) Tokyo (New York too but they don't work for the system)
4) I would guess the E line
5) Many including the 'L' 'J' and 'M' (which runs Brooklyn-Manhattan-Brooklyn)
Bonus) what new lines???? Did I miss a meeting???
1. On revenue track: Northbound N & R betw. Cortlandt & City Hall.
2. There Are None on the L.
3. Tokyo
4. J, Z
5. J, L, M, Z.
Bonus question: #8 for Pelham Exp; #10 for Lex (now #5) thru express. #11 for Flushing Express, #12 and #13 are Red, so they'd have to be for 7th Avenue.
Rumour has it there is a #14 sign on the R62 roll too. Dont know if it is red, green or purple.
Wayne
What about the F? Its Brooklyn run appears to be considerably longer than its Manhattan jaunt.
Steve. I havn't been to the TA Museum at Court St in about two years.I understand that IRT Car G is now there on loan.There used to be an R-16 there also.Would you know if it's still on display.Thanks.
Redbird
Hi,
I'm not Steve, but I visited the Museum last Friday and can answer your questions.
R-16 6387 is still at the Museum. Car "G" is also there, on loan from Shore Line Trolley Museum (Branford).
David
David,many thanks,Redbird.
When I visited the Museum in October, there must have been filming going on at the far end of the platform; it was roped off. There was a drum set all set up in #6387 along with lighting and the whole works. Get this: even a couple of storm doors were open between the R-11 and R-16. How long is car G supposed to be there? I don't believe I've ever seen it even at Shoreline, even though I know all about it.
A nice book
--contains Photos,Charts,,Rosters,Train Numbering systems
Contains info on-
City Transit Division
Market Frankfort
Broad St
subway surface lines
Surface Streetcars
Trackless Trolleys
Historic Trolleys
Red Arrow Lines
Norristown
Media and Sharon Hill Trolleys
Regional Rails
Train numbering system
PATCO
Atlantic City Line---NJT
AMTRAK
Conrail Freight
----need I say more
Steve
Steve FDNY, i see you got the book. I was going through it a little bit earlier today when i got home from work. I hope you enjoy that book.
Charlie Muller.
Charlie
I too,got the book tonite,,when I got home
I love it ,,very similar to the book on NJT Operations
I highly recommend it to anyone who is interested in SEPTA
I am looking for as much Operational Material onthe Regionals ,as available
Steve FDNY, i think there is a book story in Grand Central or you can try the transit museum in brooklyn and maybe they can give you a list of material on other transit regions. Also maybe someone here in the subtalk can help you.
Charlie Muller.
This is a great book. It covers everything in immense detail and the pictures our sharp and detailed of the transit vehicles. This book is a must for every Phila. rail transit fan. It covers both old and new
so you get a feel as to what has happened, etc. What a bargain at $29.98.
Chuck Greene
I see the Chuck Greene is another satified customer of the book of Trains, Trolley and Transit A Guide To Philadelphia Area Rail Transit
sice i brought my copy on Wednesday Dec 16 and announced it on the same day. I picked mine up at the Red Caboose at 45th Street between 5th ave and 6th ave here in new york city.
Charlie Muller.
BTW , I picked up my copy at the Greenberg's train show last weekend in Fort Washington, Pa. There were two different vendors who had the book on the table. I can't really tell you which vendor I ended up buying from. Enjoy the book,aren't the pictures great?
Chuck Greene
Went to the SEPTA museum store today and they are all sold out, so it would help me greatly if anyone told me where in the city I can purchase one.
BTW saw the 11St trolley today at Market St. The first car was was a modern LRV but about 20 minutes later a PCC in Red Arrow color scheme lumbered by. It was great to see!
order from Railpace Magazine
I haven't seen the book in any of the usual Phila haunts (and there ain't many of them left!). At the Greenberg show on 12/13 two dealers had them but told me they couldn't hang onto them - people were snapping them up like crazy. The SEPTA Museum is supposed to get some early in '99.
Actually, I saw the book at (1) vendor, (only one left,) walked around another half hour on Saturday, while seeing it at the second vrndor, then bought it at the first vendor. The same book stayed at the first guy over 1/2 hr. Guess I was real lucky to get it. It is mavelous !
Chuck Greene
Does anybody have a list of no-longer used depots in OA and TA and the years they were in service????
Mike here's a list of MaBSTOA in 1979.Manhattan
54 Street 806 9 Av at 53 St
Kingsbridge 4065 10 Av at 218 St
132 Street 605 W 132 St at Broadway
146 Street 721-39 Lenox Av
100 Street 1552-64 Lexington Av
Amsterdam 1381-1401 Amsterdam Av at 129 St
Hudson Hudson River at 15 St
The Bronx
West Farms 1825 Boston Rd at 175 St
Coliseum 1100 E 177 St at Devoe
The only one I have current info on is West Farms. It was a two building depot.One building has been razed and the other looks like a burned out shell.Maybe some of the others can flesh out this info. Regards,Redbird.
Also Coliseum was torn down about 2 or 3 years ago.Construction is non existent because a lawsuit is pending between the T.A. and the historical landmark people.It turns out that they were trying to get landmark status for Coliseum since at one time it was part of Starlite amusement park,which explains all of the land.The T.A apparently ignored them prompting the lawsuit.With regard to West Farms,I heard that they may tear down whatever part is left and build a shopping center on the land.
The only TA depots that were closed were Crosstown in Greenpoint Bklyn, and Edgewater in Staten Island. Both of these need to be reopened. I heard that SI would be getting a new depot, but it might not be at Edgewater.
Crosstown has been taking out their scrapped buses as of late so you never know about that location as a possible depot for maybe 3 lines perhaps.
It should definitely get the 24, 39, 43, 48, and 61.
The 18, Q54 and Q59 also terminate closer to it that they do to Fesh Pond.
Do you think it has the capacity to have buses for all those routes? I've only seen it from the outside. I'm not sure about the inside. You may have a better idea if there is room.
I don't know, and have never seen it. Perhaps they'll do some rebuilding and expansion before reopening.
I heard today that they are thinking of building another maintenance facility on the grounds or somewhere on Box st.
Staten Island has needed a third depot since Edgewater turned fishbowls into fish food. Currently, the TA is using a yard at the old Edgewater site for temporary storage of RTS that are currently awaiting disposition wuth the arrival of the MCIs. Problem now is that you can only store 8 MCIs in the space that used to take 10 RTS or Orions, and Yukon windsup storing many buses on the street outside the depot, and even as far as 1/4 of a mile away! Castleton has had capacity problems for a while, and most of the fleet assigned there is parked in a fenced lot on site. Castleton is supposed to be rebuilt 'soon'
-Hank
I totally agree that Crosstown Depot should be re-opened, if only to ease the need for storage space in Brooklyn. One need just look around ENY Depot to see what I mean.
can anybody give information or refer me to someone/somthing that would have historical data on Queens bus toutes and when they were established whetether they be private or city-owned??
Thank You
There was an excellent post by Andy Sparberg Sept. 15th, and a bit more info. from him on Dec. 9th, I will repeat some of his text:
Mayor LaGuardia was one of the major forces that replaced the extensive Trolley line system in NYC with buses in the 30's. He wanted a strong group of private bus companies.
"In Queens, four zones were established - A (Northwest); B (Northeast); C (Southwest/Rockaways); and D (Southeast)."
"Zones B and D were franchisded to North Shore Bus, C to Green Bus, and A to Triboro Coach. Queens Transit, Steinway Transit, and Jamaica Bus also received franchises to suceed prevoius streetcar operators. Fifth Avenue Coach and BMT (BRT ?) also operated in Queens."
North Shores' operations were taken over by the TA in '47. Green, Triboro & Jamaica exist today. Steinway & Queens merged officially in '86 to become Queens Surface ... "however both had been under common ownership since aprox 1940."
Mr t__:^)
During the past few weeks now, Triboro Coach, Command Bus, and Queens Surface have introduced their new Orions to their existing fleets. At the time when the Orions came to Green Bus Lines about two years ago, a driver told me that the MTA helped in subsidizing the purchase of the company's own Orions. I wonder if the MTA also helped with the purchasing of the newest Orions due to the success of the Metrocard.
-Garfield
I didn't know of any Orions at Green Bus Lines other than those that arrived earlier this year - that were originally supposed to be in the WMATA fleet.
Re: [... a driver told me that the MTA helped in subsidizing
the purchase of the company's own Orions ...]
The TA is staffed to do a lot of research & testing that the DOT isn't. If it's good enough for their 4,000 buses in NYC, then it's probally good enough for the DOT's 1,000, so the DOT "privates" may "me-to" on equipment that the TA buys. But, sometimes they don't. Sometimes the Mayor will make the fare slightly different on his 1,000 buses ... remember the 1.00 off peek fare in Queens. However the TA doesn't provide ANY financial support, e.g. all the fare data is collected on the TA mainframe, but DOT has to pay, in a couple of different ways, to get that data. That's not necessarily a bad thing because the DOT doesn't have to have a mainfrane & all the folks it requies to keep it running.
Re: Orions ....
DOT picked up the last 50 diesels on a Wash DC order. 44 went to Green, 6 went to Queens Surface.
What you're seeing now are 179 Orion CNG's: Queens=70, Triboro=60, Command=45, & NY Bus Serv=4. BTW Green doen't have a CNG station yet so that's why they aren't getting any of these.
Mr t__:^)
I understand that Green Bus is supposed to get some RTSs from Command.When are they ever going to get a bus that is brand new?
Green Bus Lines recently rec'd some new Orion V's (diesel). Some of them still haven't gotten their GBL colors applied yet.
I thought those buses ran briefly in D.C. Very briefly that is. BTW, I was at Queens surface last night. They have about 16 new Orion CNG buses in. The number scheme is out of order. Most of the buses weren't painted in the Queens Surface paint scheme yet.They appear to be express buses because of what appears to be soft seats in them. Can anyone verify? Also Triboro has several CNGs in,some painted some not. One more thing,Green bus has only 2 buses painted,5501 and 5502.
I can't say for sure, but I don't think those WMATA buses ever operated in service before coming to NYC. WMATA has rec'd the complete order of Orions. A couple of things I'm unclear are: The WMATA Orion order was for 262 buses (including some 30 foot models). I don't know if WMATA decided to keep 212 buses and sell the extra 50 or if they may have been an option. I believe it's possible that the buses were never on WMATA property or if the were WMATA put them aside to be sold.
The way I heard the story, those buses didn't meet WMATA's specs, and were rejected upon delivery.
-Hank
the only QSC CNG Orion I have seen is 510
This explains why the Green Bus and Queens Surface (700-05) Diesel Orions have a different rear light design from NYC Bus and the new CNG Command and Queens Surface models.
Yes, and those high mounted (Yellow) turn indicators on the back give them away as being WMATA buses.
To add to a posting thread from earlier this month, I've noticed a couple of things on the NJT bus routes in the Phila area.
One, I saw 1534 on route 419 today. It probably was reassigned from the north since those low numbers generally have not been in the Southern Division. This is one of the ex-NYC buses. A handful of them, 1600-10 +/-, were sent to the Southern Div when they were purchased by NJT.
Two, the above and occasional trips on interstate runs served by 1700 series buses. This has not happened for quite a while, and it appears to be starting to occur regularly again.
A handful of them are at Nimcos Bus Division in Newark awaiting destruction. Ride them now while you have the chance.
Bob or maybe someone else do you have a listing of the NJT bus depots and the routes that are assigned to them. Bob the one you posted for SEPTA a while back was great and really appreciated.
I know the Southern Division:
Newton Ave (Camden) - 401, 402, 404, 405, 406, 407, 409, 410, 413, 415, 419, 450, 451, 452, 453, 455, 456, 457 and seashore runs
Washington Twp (ex-Turnersville) - 400, 403, 408, 410, 412, 454, 459, 460
Atlantic City - seashore runs and 552, all 500-series AC local lines
Mercer - all 600-series ex-Mercer Metro lines
The ones in Northern NJ I know a little bit about are:
Market Street (Paterson) - 72, 74, 161, 191 (I think), 192 (I think), and many 700-series routes that were formerly operated by Community Bus Lines.
Big Tree (Belleville) - 13, 39
Orange (Orange) - 11, 27, 28, 29, 92, 94, maybe a few others.
Ironbound (Newark) - 62, 108 (I think) in addition to others (probably the 1 and 25)
Oradell (Oradell) - most of the 160-series - 162, 163, 164, 165, 166, 167, and 168
Speaking of interesting reroutes, one does occasionally happen on the 2 and 5 lines. On Monday and Tuesday night, the southbound track in the area of 149 St 3rd Av was shut down for rail replacement. They should have gone express right? From say 174 St to 3rd Av, the train would have operated express, then wrong rail on the nothbound track through 3rd Av. Absolutely not! The TA personnel had another idea. The train would run local, but still have to get to the uptown track. There was no switch from the southbound track to the northbound track directly at Jackson Av. So, extra train operators were posted at Jackson Av. Everytime a southbound train came into the station, the motorman would release his brakes. The other operator would board the train and charge it, and he would go off with the train in the opposite direction! The passangers must have been dumbfounded. Hopefully, the conductor explained that they were backing up a short distance over the switch into Prospect Av, the middle track. The question is: Does one save time with a train that makes all stops and backs up a short distance, or is it more beneficial to go express?
-Constantine
Constantine,
You forgot the 1st cardinal rule of the TA: Don't inconvenience the customer (not that they always follow it).
If they ran the trains express then all the customers on the intermediate stations would have to go uptown to E 180 St to get a downtown train. Unlike many other lines (for example the Pelham Bay or even the Concourse line) there are no express to allow for short trip exchanges between uptown/downtown.
Allan
As long as everyone seems to like the brain-teasers, here are a few pretty simple ones.
1) What was the name of the first movie with scenes filmed in the 63rd Street Connection?
2) What two facts make car #3348 an oddity.
3) Referring to LIRR M-1s or M-3s, in what operational ways do the even cars differ from the odd cars.
Bonus) Geographically speaking, The 'M' train does it, so does the 'F', the 'N' and the 'R' train too. But the 'M' does it differently and I can't think of any others that do. Can you?
OK, I'll bite!
#1: "Nighthawks" (1981) with Stallone - Chase scene in tunnel; (workers don't even stop welding as the bad guy, Stallone and Billy Dee Williams run through the work area).
BONUS:
The 'M', 'F', 'N' & 'R' all start in Queens, loop through Manhattan, and end in Southern Brooklyn.
However, the 'M' only does it's Brooklyn leg during rush hour.
And, before the 63d St.tunnel rehab and shuttle started this year, so did the 'B' & 'Q', (depending on the time of day).
Another oddity about the "M" (the rush hour service) is that it's the only train to enter the same Borough twice along its route. (Queens-Brooklyn-Manhattan-Brooklyn). I can't think of any other lines that do that at this time. (Our recent discussion of Nassau Loop services would provide other examples.)
Doesn't one short section of the L route cross over the Brooklyn-Queens border briefly near Halsey Street? If so, that would make it another example, albeit an oddity...
The curved section of track between Halsey Street and Wilson Avenue is within Queens County. Also - since Wyckoff Avenue defines the Brooklyn-Queens border for a stretch, with the "L" running beneath, this would mean that the westbound tracks are in Queens with the eastbound tracks in Brooklyn.
Wayne
Well, as for my oddball friend #3348 HE was formerly a SHE - #3659 to be exact. This car was converted to Even Number (forget whether you call it "A" or "B") from Odd Number when it was rebuilt.
The plaques on the exterior are different: At the "A" end it looks like the number is engraved on metal or heavy plastic; at the "B" end the old traditional number style has been used.
The number is OUT OF RANGE for R32, it is wearing an Ex-R10 number.
(R32 range is 3350-3949).
BTW - three more full R32 consists were spotted on the "A" today.
AND a Slant R40 on the "B". AND an R46 on the "E".
Wayne
1) Nighthawks was the film
2) Car #3348 did have a sex change and although an R-32 does not have an R-32 number
3) LIRR even cars are Motor-Alternator cars, don't have lavatories and are always the east end of the pair.
Bonus) M, F, R and N all cross the east river twice. However the M is the only one that currently crosses once by tunnel and once by bridge.
(until the Q resumes to 21st St)
OK, one last quickie:
Which is the ONLY line with more than 2 stops that never goes above the ground?
-Hank
The'E'from the WTC to Jamaica Center is all subway.
The C also shares this distinction when it is running only to WTC. I can see where you're coming from, as the E runs over the same route at all times.
Yep. Interesting that no one thought of the R as qualifying....(It doesn't)
-Hank
I thought of it, but I'm curious - where does it go above ground?
Can someone explain to me something that's been bothering me for a long time...how did streetcars switch tracks, especially the conventional cars? Was there a mechanism on the trolley wire that affected this procedure?
Is it also true that the PCC cars had a gizmo on the dash that activated the switch?
There were two methods, (three counting accidental xovers);
1. The swithch iron (manual) - this was a lever inserted into the uderground switch stand and then mover in the direction of the switch points. This required a two man crew, the motor man and the couductor to use the switch iron. After a while, routes were established that required less switching or at the turnback a spring or hard xover was used that did not require a swithch iron.
The electro-magnetic - whereby a signal could be transmitted through the track to the switch machine and the desired route was set.
These, in some case were set up so that no intervention was required,
assuming the sun moon and stars and the time of day and day of week were right. This method require only one crew member to operate, the motorman.
Mellow One was partially correct in referring to the manual "switch iron" for throwing switches. One thing to remember about streetcar switches is that specialwork in paving usually makes use of single point switches, a "live mate" which has the point (the movable piece) and a "dead mate" which simply has the proper flangeways for movement in both directions.
At busy junctions, electric switches were installed. An electric switch is a regular street switch that has had an electric motor (actually a 600 volt solenoid) and control equipment installed. The position of the switch point (either straight or turning) is controlled by the motorman of the car simply by having the power on or off as the trolley pole passes through a contactor. On most systems, power off ("drift") set the point straight and power on ("pull") set the point to the diverging route.
The control equipment was set so that the air compressor and heat/light current did not affect the switch.
When the PCC car was introduced, the designers realized that the operator could not limit the amout of power being drawn (due to the automatic acceleration of the PCC control) so they added an auxiliary circuit that draws the equivilant of one point of power, for acctuating electric switches. This was usually operated by pushing a switch on the operator's gang switch panel marked "Track Switch".
Modern switch control today uses a variant of the V-TACH system. See Boston or Philadelphia for examples.
The traditional method survies today at several Museums, including The Baltimore Streetcar Museum, The Pennsylvania Railway Museum (Arden) and others.
That's streetcar switch operation in a nutshell.
SEPTA's variant of this is actually called "VETAG". On the subway-surface lines, the operator sets his route on a box on the console/dash and the switches automatically align when necessary. The "VETAG" system has wire contact points at various locations around the network of lines and can locate cars as well as set switches.
In certain places electrically-controlled switches remain and the cars have the capability to send the electric impulse as described in Dan's response. If you travel around the SEPTA lines you will see several locations with an "Electric Switch" sign on the span wire. Several of these are on the infrequently-used switches, such as those leading to the diversion route and some seldom-used short turn locations.
Some of the systems use radio frequencies and have antenea in the nose and tail of the car to reset the switch after the car has passed.
I think they work almost like a garage door opener type of a system.
Does anyone have any info on these systems??
The VETAG system used by SEPTA is a variation of the radio type. I think Tri-Met's light rail line (Portland) uses a radio setup also. ?
Some electric switches also worked this way. For a turnout on an infrequently-used loop, turnback, etc, the electric switch would always reset the turnout for the main line once the car cleared the turnout. Some lines also had spring switches which worked in a similar way.
In Baltimore we had one-way electric switches that were reset to the straight when the next car arrived at the point. We referred to them as "Safety Switches".(Our rulebook requires (we still use UR&E /BTC rules at BSM.)full stops at ALL facing point switches.
Some properties referred to them as self-restoring. I believe PRT/PTC called them Semi-Automatic. Either way, for the diverging route, get out the switch iron.
SEPTA still requires streetcar operators to stop at all facing point switches also, except where they are controlled by signals (i.e. the subway).
The simplest circuit used for electric switches involved a short piece of metal insulated from the trolley wire and connected to it through a small resistor. This was called a "pan". When the car passed over the pan drawing power, a voltage would be developed across the resistor and operate a relay which in turn applied trolley voltage to the solenoid in the switch. A contactor in the overhead before the pan would turn on the power feed to the solenoid via another relay while the operation of the solenoid to the other position would shut off the power. In Boston a coasting car would always select the left option and a car under power would select the right option. Where MU cars were being operated, there would be another contactor immediately after the pan which would lock out the power after the switch had thrown. Several carlengths down the straight and diverging tracks would be an unlocking contactor. This prevented the second or third car in a train from activating the switch while the first car was passing over it.
In the subway the pan was interlocked with the signal system, and the locking and unlocking contactors were unnecessary. A pair of buttons were provided to select the correct direction in the event of a mistake. On the street the penalty was get out the switchiron.
In Toronto a special device on the trolley shoe took the place of the pan. This was called a Necessity Action device and if it was not activated the car would take the normal route for that location. Self restoring switches were also used in Toronto, and some of both types were equipped for MU cars as well. Track maps issued by TTC show what variety of switch is at each location.
The N/A system that TTC developed and uses simply removed the electric switch from the power circuit. They simply removed the resistor from the pole box and installed one on every car. By pressing the N/A button (on PCC's and CLRV's) or the N/A pedal (on Witts and TRC cars) the diverging route is selected. Doing nothing selects the straight route. It's disconcerning to come from a property with standard electric switches and see TTC cars operate at traffic speeds at intersections with specialwork. MU routes (Bloor and Queen) had locking and unlocking contactors at all N/A switches. The locking contactor was acuated by the first car's pole and the unlocking contactor was actuated by the second car's pole.
The really amazing thing about the N/A system was that TTC developed it in 1947 and 48. It absolutely eliminated accidental electric
switch accidents, yet no other system ever adopted it.
Inertia rules the street railway industry.
That's "E"asy - that would be the E - home of the R32.
Wayne
Under the current schedules we could also add the Rt S 63 Street Shuttle.Redbird.
True, I suppose I should have worded it either 'regular service' or 'non-shuttle' oh, well. And now that I think about it, the C does indeed qualify, at all times (Euclid Ave is underground, and has been the last stop for the C for a few years now....) So there are 2 lines.
-Hank
The refirbished station at Chambers/WTC has many tiled "eyes" on the walls. Does anyone know the significance of this? Sometimes the subway can be creepy enough with people staring at you... now the walls too!
And I thought the walls had ears. Oh well, so much for that old cliche'.
Hello Todd!
Following your suggestion, I went back from WTC to Chambers Street and there are even MORE eyes staring out from the wall, watching every move. Some are very creepy looking - baleful stares. I went up the "E" platform to get an "A". On the back of the staircase near the north end of the station - MORE eyes, looking back at me. I don't know what the signifigance of this is other than it's Subway Art. I think they're amusing. Just as long as the pupils don't contain little cameras! And everything in Chambers St/WTC is funereal purple.
There are two shades - the deep blue-violet of the "C"/"E" station and the more Concord Grape found at the "A" platform, which is quite similar to the original Plum/Prune (except now it's got a Mourning Black border to go with the Funereal Purple). And they DID finish putting up the new wall tile panels. Looks nice EXCEPT they overdid it with putting "CHAMBERS" on each one (should have been every other one). However, they DID duplicate the original IND font. NICE.
Cheers,
Wayne
Last evening I entered the 18th Street station (downtown) on the line to head to WTC. There was an announcement that downtown local service was suspended due to a train with its "automatic brakes engaged" at South Ferry. I could see the tail lights of the previous train, stopped, just south of 18th street.
So I went out to the clerk, and asked for a transfer. He gave me a paper transfer normally used for senior citizens. I walked over to the 8th Ave./14th Street station to catch a downtown and told the clerk there "There is a train BIE at South Ferry, and the IRT clerk gave me this to get me back into the system here." He said to me, "If you can tell me what 'BIE' is, I'll let you in." I did, and he did!
A BIE is Brakes In Emergency- that is when the train's brakes are put in emergency either by someone pulling the cord, a train runs the signal (the tripper arm hits the brakes), or something on the trckas hit the brake control or maybe something on the train broke causing the brakes to apply.
The clerk should have given you a block ticket rather than the senior citizen ticket. Block tickets are kept in each booth for such emergencies. The reason (my guess) that you were not given a block ticket is due to the clerk's unwillingness to call the field office to advise that the block tickets were being issued.
Indeed when I told the clerk at 8th/14th that BIE was Brakes in Emergency he had a shocked look on his face that a "regular customer" could know that! But I'm not a regular customer... I'm a SubTalker!
... and Todd could have been inconvenienced (unless he's much older than he looks :)
Would the booth attendant be within his/her right to refuse someone who has a senior citizen transfer who clearly is not a senior citizen? Even if a legitimate reason was offered for its use, such as the train with BIE?
--Mark
on the receiving end we must accept these tickets when presented. On the issuing end we are told to ask for ID before giving a customer the ticket.
The problem with the "paper" that they give out due to a "block" on the subway is that you can't normally get back on the train, i.e. it's only good on the surface (buses). The "pink" is a "block", the two different "whites" are for Seniors & Disabled, since i've met you in person, your problem is that you look neither Senior or Disabled B-)
Mr t__:^)
Yesterday after going with my mother to Main Street. The Train on the Second Track was an Express R-33/36 Train. On the right the train that was being a local was an R-62 or it looked like on. It had a silver color and the destination sign I coun not look at the number sign cause my mother said that the train was going to leave. Has anybody also seen a R-62 on the 7 line?
Christopher Rivera
Chris,
It's unlikely you saw an R-62 on the #7 line, since none are assigned there and it would take a great deal of effort (described previously in SubTalk) to get one there. However, what you probably saw was a garbage train. The R-127 and R-134 refuse motors were built by Kawasaki to the same general carbody specifications as R-62s.
David
When the new orders for the R-142/R-143 cars arrive will the total fleet size stay about the same? It seems that 1080 cars will not be able to replace the whole Redbird fleet. Unless the TA's goal is to reduce the fleet size. Appreciate any imput on this. Have a good holiday guys.
The R-142/142A purchase (1,080 cars) was never intended to replace the entire "redbird" fleet of about 1,400 cars. The intent was to replace cars on about a 1:1 basis, but the plan now is to increase the IRT fleet by retaining 120 of the "redbirds" that were supposed to be replaced by R-142/142As. The next IRT purchase (planned for 2000) should replace most, if not all, of the remaining "redbirds."
David
Ron back in the late 1960's when car groups R-12 thru R-36 were all in service the IRT Fleet numbered 2860 +/-.Today's fleet runs from R-26 thru R-110A numbers 2570 +/-.A loss of 290 cars. If the TA replaces R-26 thru R-36 (1410 cars) with 1080 R-142's that will be a further reduction. No wonder there is a shortage of equiptment, but I believe there is an option for more cars on the R-142 order.
Regards,Redbird.
<< Ron back in the late 1960's when car groups R-12 thru R-36 were all in service the IRT Fleet numbered 2860 +/-.Today's fleet runs from R-26 thru R-110A numbers 2570 +/-.A loss of 290 cars. >>
Wasn't there more trackage then, as opposed to today? What was left of the 3rd Avenue line (from 3rd Ave./149th St. to Gunn Hill Rd.), for example. That would necessitate the need for more cars.
My notes also show that as of 4-16-90 there were 2188 cars in the Division A (IRT) fleet. If this is correct then the fleet has increased in size over the last 8 1/2 years.
Dave the IRT Fleet in 1990 is virtually the same as it is today with the exception of the R-110A.By that time all R-12,14,15,17,21,and 22 had been retired and all R-62 and 62A were in service.The fleet size would have been as follows :
R-26 110
R-28 100
R-29 236
R-33 540
R-36 424
R-62 325
R-62A 825
Total 2560
I have seen the 2188 figure also and I believe that is what was required for daily service not including cars in the shop or undergoing repair.The R-33 figure should be 533 as six of the mainline R-33 had been scrapped by that time and one R-33 WF was in the transit nuseum. Hope's this helps.
Redbird.
We've had a bit of "attrition" here, so...
Five (5) R62 are gone (1437,1439,1440,1436,1435)
One (1) R62A (1909)
Six (6) R33 - (8884, [8885 is a work motor] 9152-3, 8980-1)
Assume all R26, R28 and R29 are still up and running (looks like they are), and you've only lost twelve units in eight years. Not bad.
I have to hand it to the R33s - they take all kinds of bumps and jolts and keep on running (witness the multi-unit crash of July 21, 1998) -
all of those are back in service.
I wonder what would have happened back in '91 if that ill-fated #4 train had been made up of 9200 series Redbirds. Probably nowhere near the amount of wreckage and carnage that resulted. When #8884 cracked up in '97, he got out of shape - his body bent but it did not break.
Wayne
Wayne One of the things that struck me (no pun intended) about the 14 St Wreck of the R-62s was the remarkable similarity between those photos and the ones of the Malbone St Wreck.The Malbone St wreck was wooden BU Gate Cars but the 14 St Wreck was of course R-62s which I believe are the heaviest cars ever built for the IRT.
What happened to 1909? I missed that one.
The 6 R-33s were they all involved in the 239 St Yard Incident.
Thanks,Redbird.
Wayne. You seem to have excellent records on the NYCTA Car Fleet. Perhaps you could help me with this. I believe that five R-32/32A were not rebuilt and scrapped before GOH. The numbers were 3616,3629,3651,3669,and 3766. This means that there must be a single R-32 somewhere with no mate,legitimate or otherwise. This also doesn't include 3659 which had the sex change operation to 3348. Any info would be helpful.
Thanks,Redbird.
Redbird -
He is #3620, and he moulders alone at Coney Island Yard, with a frame problem that prevented his rebuilding. His mate, #3621, has not been accounted for, but I'm sure that she is remarried.
Do you have Lotus 1-2-3? If so, I will E-mail you my two R32 sheets (separate workbooks actually), one with all the numbers I have seen (which is all of them since April 7, 1969), the other one is the new Census, showing the lines that I have spotted them on since January of 1997. Having "spotted" all R32, R38, R40, R42's, I decided that a census of all of them was in order, since they are nearing their golden years. So I broke out my pencils and notebook and began re-spotting all of them. The R32s have been annotated as to which lines they were seen on, since they are numerous. R38 ("A" and "C"),
Slant R40 (either "N", "Q" or "L", though one was seen on the "B" Sat. and there is unit number segregation from 4398-4449 to the "L")
and R42 (they swap lines frequently so it's not practical), did not get these notations, though I may go back and re-do some of it in 2000 when the 63rd St.connector opens and "Q"s become more numerous.
These files are up to date as of December 19, 1998, when I added 24 units to them. They include the "odd couples" lists as well.
So far there are 21 "odd couples".
Wayne
Hey Wayne, I'd like a copy. Why not just post your spreadsheet on the site?
--Mark
Wayne Thank you. Would very much appreciate it. I do have Lotus 1-2-3 and my e-mail is RedbirdR33@ AOL>COM. As you probably my focus is on history and while I am very interested in the car types my access to recent and up to date info has been somewhat limited.Again,graditude.
Redbird.
Wayne has forgot to tell you, but they were designed by our line-by-line guru Peggy Darlington.
If you'd like a wks or wk1 version of the template please e-mail Peggy on the site.
Only #9152-9153 and 8980-8981 were involved in the February 1998 wreck at the Wakefield Yard Lead. #8884, the last car of a southbound #2 train, split the switch branching off to President Street and came in contact with the wall, bending his frame so badly he was scrapped on the spot. There was impact damage at the bottom of the car body, with a large but not penetrating dent in his side. The accident occurred on July 15, 1997. #8885, now a widow, has retired to be a work motor- according to sources a grease applicator car.
Other R33 that are gone are #9114 and #9213 (fires), plus #9224 and #9131, unknown reasons. All were lost some time ago. This makes odd couples of #9212 and #9115, as well as #9130 and #9225.
#1909 was involved in an accident up at Hunts Point back in 1996. She was in the middle of the train when she derailed and also smacked the curtain wall between the tracks. I believe she is up at 207th Street yard, awaiting disposition as to repair her or scrap her. She has quite a bruise in her just to one side of the center door.
I will address the R32 post separately.
Wayne
Wayne. Many thanks for the great info.
Redbird
Taking it one step further, what would have happened with a train of, say, Hi-Vs or Lo-Vs? I'll leave the BMT standards out of this, since they wouldn't fit in that particular tunnel stretch, but it would still be interesting to speculate.
Based on what happened on 8/24/28 at Times Square, I would say that the Low-Vs or Hi-Vs would have suffered the same fate as the R62s.
The Redbirds would have hit the wall, bounced off it (perhaps with a sizable dent or even a carbody penetration), but they would not have split as did the R62.
Wayne
Dave I was only thinking of the R-Types, but your right there were approx 60 or 70 old cars assigned to 3 Av El service. The breakdown was as follows, 50 World's Fair-Steinway Motors,7 or so standard Steinway Motors and about 12 or so Lo-V Trailers.Also starting about 1968 or early 69 the five museum Lo-V motors were assigned here and lasted until replaced by the R-12's in October,1969. 11-5 car trains set were required for service in the mid 1960's but when the R-12's were assigned the requirements were only 8 or 9 four car trains.
Regards,Redbird
According to my info, the R142 has 680 coming (6301-6980) with an option for an additional 230 (6981-7210) AND the R142A has 400 coming (7211-7610; the old R22 numbers) with an option for an additional 150 (7611-7760). That would be enough to retire the entire Redbird fleet, but I do hope they retain a few hundred of them, just to fatten up the fleet. A fleet of 6000+ units would be optimum IMHO.
Wayne
Let's face it - it won't be long before there will be a "Farewell to the Redbirds" trip, complete with banners and whatever other hoopla they decide to have. Hopefully, there won't be a "Farewell to the Slant R-40s" fantrip during our lifetimes. That goes for the R-32s and R-38s, too.
Now that the MTA is going to all-transverse cabs, I wonder if they could bring back the slant design, or a modified version of the slant 40, sometime in the future. If one end of only every fourth or fifth car was done that way (or the 2/3 slant out - 1/3 slant in style of the old Expo 67 trains, if anyone remembers those), and nobody was traveling between the cars because of the transverse cabs, I don't see what the problem would be. And it would be nice to keep some kind of slants on the system after the R-40s go.
It could certainly work. Witness BART and their ABBBA consists.
I also think the idea of retrofitting the R-40 slants with transverse cabs was studied. I suppose it was decided not to do it (I think one door would have to be cut out to make room for the opposite side window).
--Mark
Actually, it was the R-42s that were being looked at for possible conversion to transverse cabs. Until recently, it was presumed that the R-40s would be around for a limited time before they were scrapped. Recently, the NYCT started looking at what would be necessary to extend the life of the R-32, R-38s and R-40s by 5 - 10 additional years...
I remember those trains on the Expo Express. Their slanted noses reminded me more of Chicago's 2000-series cars then the slant R-40s. They were coupled into 3-car sets, and generally ran in trains of 6 cars.
i really think that this is a huge problem. having a graffitti free car is runied by the scratches all over. it is sad that nearly all cars are stricken with this problem. i know the TA tried an experiment that failed. is there anything being done now to try and find a solution? how often does NYCT replace windows on average? also, as far as the cars that were bought in the 80's, is there anyway to get the scratches off their metal walls? it truly has become a problem
I agree . . . someone needs to invent glass that can't be scratched. Is that really possible?
I think that whomever does that should be given a free lifetime Metrocard!
I can understand that it's difficult to combat the problem on our subways; but what about the buses. Are bus drivers keeping watch towards the rear of the bus at possible vandals in action. I'm already seeing vandalism on our newest buses and often wonder if scrathitti can be reduced if bus drivers took more looks towards the rear since mostly all vandalism occurs in the rear.
-Garfield
How can they look towards the rear if they're supposed to watch the road as they drive? Mr. MaBSTOA will tell you my feelings on the subject :) But I honestly don't expect a driver to watch the rear of the bus while driving. But short of a cop on every bus or train car as a deterrent, it's not going to happen.
Buses on Staten Island now have a relativly thick plastic sheet over the windows, which is supposed to be easily removed and replaced when scratched, without allowing damage to the windows.
-Hank
As far as NYC transit scratchiti was on the buses, currently hidden cameras are in the Bronx artic's to video tape the nice people who do this.
Please don't expect our transit personel to play hero. We are not armed, we are not trained in fighting off rowdies. Suppose some bus operator, for example, has some kid arrested for scrathitti? The next day, or week, or whatever, that punk & his friends may come back and do bodily harm to that driver. It is up to the TA management in conjunction with the NYPD to thwart this vandalism. If the driver gets hurt and has to stay out of work, or God forbid a permanent injury, are you going to support his family??????
I never mentioned anything about bus drivers to play "hero". And yes God forbid if one ever tried to be one he/she might encounter bodily harm. And to answer your question, my condolences will definitely go to his/her family if ever an tragedy like this should happen. Take into account of a situation like this: If a group of knuckleheads decide to get rowdy on a train and begin to pull the emergency cords what's the end result. After multiple warnings from both conducter and motorman, the train will be pulled out of service leaving riders frustrated and sometimes quick to argue and go after the misfits. Now if a bus driver sees vandalism taking place on windows, shouldn't he/she warn the offenders that if they continue, the bus will pulled off the road. Usually by doing this, others riding the bus will get angry, argue and perhaps take it higher than that. I've seen this on some occassions where riders on a train will get down on someone's throat for holding the doors after repeated calls from the conducter to release the doors.
-GarfieldA
Bus drivers & train Motormen have radios, they can & do call ahead for assistance.
Mr t__:^)
TA's biggest problem may be scratchitti, but the most serious is the fact that the trains now have about 30% less service braking today as opposed to before the GOH programs. Serious about safety, yeah right!
Hey guys I have another idea with this vandelism problem. I know this may sound a bit crazy but if it were allowed to happen I'm sure it would have some impact on the situation. Hou about canning like that one kid got for vandlizing those cars overseas. Of course in this country how dare we even think of such a thing. After all there only children out to have a little fun. Right cut me break.
"In Uncle Al's time everything was different. People might not have been wild about cops, but they feared them. Try a word like 'pig' and you would wind up in the basement of a precinct house getting beaten to a pulp by a succession of joyful sadists. And in Uncle Al's father's time, police work was even simpler; most problems were solved by a beer-belly Irish cop hauling off and kicking some harmless kid in the ass. Well, the policeman's lot had undergone quite a change in his family's third generation of cops. People called cops pigs and nobody laid a hand on them. A lieutenant would chew your ass if you booted a kid's behind (and if it happened to be a black behind, you could start a riot and maybe get stomped to death before a 10-13 brought help."
-from "The Taking of Pelham One-Two-Three", p.251.
Tell me this is not true.
I'm definatly not condoning police brutality, but kids get away with a little too much these days.
Tell me about it. The same holds true in schools. Kids are getting away with stuff which wouldn't have been tolerated in my day. I'm an ex-teacher myself, and I don't miss it at all. Granted, I never was too big on corporal punishment, but nowadays, all you have to do is look at a kid in a funny manner and he just might pull a gun on you.
The reason all this is going on is that if a teacher is accused of being too harsh with kids,the LIBERALS will always make an issue about it.
Reminds me of a story I heard about life in Catholic School back in the 1960s. One teacher (who later ended up in a mental ward) got so upset when anyone made a sound that he lined the students up against the blackboard and punched each one in the face, slamming the back of their heads against the board. I've heard other similar stories from that era.
Seems like things always go to absurd extremes.
That's a bit extreme. Nuns were known to do that sort of thing - or at least threaten to do such things. I'm Catholic myself, and went to parochial school through fourth grade, until we moved to Jersey. One nun I had used to threaten people with a meat chopper. She never actually hauled off and belted anybody, but did threaten to sharpen a kid's finger the next time he had to sharpen his pencil. One of the other nuns often threatened to shake someone's clothes off, or knock two heads together. I think their bark was often worse than their bite.
"She never actually hauled off and belted anybody, but did threaten to sharpen a kid's finger the next time he had to sharpen his pencil."
Unless the kid's purposely going up to the pencil sharpener with a whole bunch of pencils with the intent of making noise, what is the point of this? If the kid doesn't write stuff down, they fail. If they sharpen the pencil so they can keep writing, they get disciplined. Especially when your age is in single digits, you don't always have the foresight to have multiple well-sharpened pencils on your desk at the beginning of class.
I went to Catholic school from preschool to college, and corporal punishment was rarely imposed. I only had two teachers who regularly used force of the stereotypical "hit the hand with a ruler" type, and both were Christian Brothers, not nuns. It's a very odd experience to be (just turned) 18, old enough to vote, and have a person throw an eraser at you without you being able to do anything about it.
I never had nuns, but my wife did. Their philosophy was "Be afraid of the teacher, this way you will learn". That attitude was extreme. I had Christian Brothers from 6th grade thru high school. When one of those guys threw an eraser at you for not paying attention, they seldom missed! We figured those guys practiced on each other in The Brothers House!
My kids are in Catholic school, but we went to public school. Hearing these stories, I'm amazed that the other parents who went to Catholic school are sending their kids there. I looked around the school for homocidal nuns before signing the kids up, and found none. So much for the "Good Old Days."
I attended Catholic school for first grade. There's only one thing I can remember with any degree of vividness - the day a fellow student tried to spit on me in the recess line. The nun who was the principal saw me ducking back and forth trying to avoid the spit (naturally, she didn't see the spitter). She hauled me out of line and slapped my face so hard I got a bloody nose.
Now that same year, President Kennedy was assassinated. I have only the dimmest memories of that, but I can recall the face-slapping like it happened yesterday.
I think we're getting a little off-topic, here...
I POSTED THIS MESSAGE IN AN EFFORT TO GET SOLUTIONS OT THE PROBLEM. STOP TALKING ABOUT THIS b.s. AND LETS CONCENTRATE ON THE ISSUE
See my comments on terminating night subway service on many lines.
Also, if there is a problem in a car (ie someone scratching), what are your options? Pulling the cord stops the train. Perhaps there should be a button to push if you see vandalism or crime in progress, so the train operator can be notified and contact the tower, to see if a police officer or at least a station agent with a camera (to take the perp's picture) could meet the train.
You're right, the thread did get pretty much off-topic ... parochial school anecdotes may be amusing but don't have that much to do with scratchitti. Or do they? It seems like the whole scratchitti problem is symptomatic of an ongoing breakdown of authority in our society. Or, more precisely, a loss of the *fear* of authority. We can't go back to the days of eraser-throwing and face-slapping parochial school teachers. And I'm not going to wallow in nostalgia and say that those were the good old days. But at least back then, youths in New York and elsewhere feared (if not necessarily respected) authority and didn't go around defacing subway property.
Today, in contrast, we have a whole new breed on the loose - semiliterate youths with colossal egos and double-digit I.Q. scores, from multigenerational welfare families, and who most importantly of all are completely lacking in fear. They'll trash subway cars with complete freedom, not worrying in the least that they might get caught. Indeed, the police are probably more afraid of them than vice-versa. I'll be the first to say that there has been some success in reducing the rate of violent crime (although I'd like to see a few more years of declining rates before declaring victory). But that success hasn't saved the subway windows from destruction.
Happy thoughts for the holidays, huh ?
Kids today are brought up in an environment which questions authority at every step of the way. In our day, you were taught to respect someone in a position of authority. It's almost as if today's attitude in general is "I don't have to," or worse, "Who's gonna make me?"
Like New York, Scratchitti is becoming more popular here in England
with most TUBE lines having windows damaged by this form of vandalism.
London Buses fleet is also similarly treated and some routes have been converted from double decker operated to single decker operated
in an attempt to cut down on damage. Make no mistake about it, just as Graffiti(tagging)is vandalism, Scratchiti is also...Vandalism= crime and so the cycle continues.
Most if not all London Buses have video cameras fitted to the upper deck which is reveiwed after the vehicle is noticed as being damaged
and several prosecutions have resulted.
Some mainline stock has also had cameras fitted in each car and these also have resulted in prosecutions although i have not seen ant TUBE trains fitted with cameras yet.
On a slightly different thread, London Buses are now being fitted with forward facing cameras which take pictures of vehicles ahead using or obstructing bus lanes and the film is used as evidence and a traffic ticket issued to the offender. Rob :^)
> Kids today are brought up in an environment which questions
> authority at every step of the way. In
> our day, you were taught to respect someone in a position of
> authority. It's almost as if today's
> attitude in general is "I don't have to," or worse, "Who's gonna > make me?"
People have been saying things like the above for decades. But let us not forget that this nation was founded by people who questioned authority, such as that of King George. How's the Boston Tea Party grab you as an example of attitudes toward "authority" in the late 18th century?
Unfortunately, there don't seem to be any physical solutions, hence the "conversation" turned to the "social" issues behind the problem, then to other ramifications of those social issues...
The only direct solution would seem to be scrtchproof glass, so: is there any possibility of manufacturing such a product at a reasonable price? I mention price because the solution that occurred to me first would seem to be truly prohibitive in cost--putting a diamond coating (even a microscopically thin one) over the glass. Or would it? Would a layer of carbon a few atoms thick, arranged in a "diamond" pattern, provide the necessary resistance to scratching? Could such a coating be deposited over a surface the size of a subway window? Could it be done in quantity and at a reasonable (== what?) cost?
If not diamond, maybe cubic zirconium? Is that the same as boron nitride (BN), which I understand is the hardest man-made substance?
I was riding on the Washington, D.C. Metro last night, and I noticed that the windows are made of something called "MARGARD" made by GE. I would assume by the trademark that it's intended to be scratch-proof. Now, Washington isn't nearly as a rough a town as NYC, (heck, Metro cars are even _carpeted_,) but I've never seen a scratch on a Metro window, so maybe the stuff works.
I forgot to check the car number, but the most recent trains were delivered in 1991 - I imagine they've improved on the technology since then...
Those would be the 4000 series Breda Cars. I noticed the same on the 3000 series cars when I visited DC last August. And I don't want to make an issue of this, but there are some parts of DC that are extremely rough, namely the far Southeast and far eastern Northeast. The Metro, though, keeps crime to a bare minimum with numerous cameras in the stations and vigilant watchmen in the station kiosks, who won't hesitate to call a cop even if they suspect something is going on. All in all Washington DC Metro is a very safe transit system. And there's no scratchitti OR graffitti either.
Wayne
[And I don't want to make an issue of this, but there are some parts of DC that are extremely rough, namely the far Southeast and far eastern Northeast. The Metro, though, keeps crime to a bare minimum with numerous cameras in the stations and vigilant watchmen in the station kiosks, who won't hesitate to call a cop even if they suspect something is going on. All in all Washington DC Metro is a very safe transit system. And there's no scratchitti OR graffitti either.]
On the other hand, the NYCTA hasn't yet learned what security cameras are!
When I went to Catholic grade school, the teacher used to have us hold out our hand and we would get slapped with a couple of wooden rulers which were rubber banded together. As we got to the upper grades, you would get wacked in the butt with a paddle. If you told your parents, you got more when you got home ( in most cases). If the parents didn't like the discipline, they were told to take the child out & go to public school. In high school, you would get detention and grade schools stopped that kind of discipline because younger, liberal parents started making a big deal about it and the Catholic schools started to get declining enrollments due to higher tuition. The decline of religious vocations also contributed to the rise in tuition as more & more lay teachers had to be hired.
Single biggest problem? Beating out overcrowding, poorly served areas, aging infrastructure, station appearance, and competition from other modes? Hogwash.
Scratchitti (or "scratch bombing" as it's more commonly known) is a pretty minor problem, even aesthetically. It's monochromatic, not particularly visually intrusive, and it's not even as common as interior graffitti was at its height. Moreover, it doesn't have the cultural momentum that ink-and-paint graf retains even today. I doubt it will last another ten years.
-Daniel Casey
Re: scratchitti being "not particularly visually intrusive".
I have to agree with this one. Being a CTA rider, I remember going to high school on buses that had a lot of graffitti on them (I hesitate to say they were "covered" in graffitti, as that would be a bit of an exaggeration). Now, almost every CTA bus has considerable scratchitti on it. But I don't get that same "why doesn't somebody do something /collapse of Western Civilization" feeling from scratchitti that even just pictures on the Net of NYC subway cars covered in real graffitti gives.
At the present time the oficial policy is to replace only very heavily scratched glass or glass with offensive writings, drawings or symbols. As for the stainless steel, there are ways to re-grain the stainless inside and out. The 3M company developed process is fast and relatively inexpensive.
One of my mother's favorite songs from her childhood (in the 40's and 50's) is one about a man who doesn't have enough money to get out of the system (I think in Boston) and has to ride back and forth forever.
Has anyone heard of such a song? If so, any guess as to the name of the song and the performer?
Thanks and Happy Holidays!!
It's called "M.T.A.", and although I don't know who wrote it, it was a popular song for the folk band The Kingston Trio.
-Dave
I don't know who wrote it either but if you listen carefully at the end you will find that the song (at least the Kingston Trio version) was actually a campaign song for whatever election was going on at the time.
From the lyrics, it seemed that the Boston MTA had started (or tried to start) a policy where you had to pay to get off (similar to the Rockaway line in NYC where it used to cost an extra token to exit at the stations on the Rockaway peninsula). The protagonist of the song, "Charlie" didn't have enough money to get off. Hence, the words "...he may ride forever 'neath the streets of Boston..." and "..fight the fare increase, vote for George O'Brien, get poor Charlie off the MTA..."
The song was a hit in the very early 1960's..
Does anyone know if any of this was based on fact?
<< it seemed that the Boston MTA had started (or tried to start) a policy where you had to pay to get off >>
In the '60's and early '70's, passengers boarding a Green Line car to Riverside or down Commonwealth Ave., who boarded at one of the underground stations, paid a half-fare to enter the station and a half-fare exiting the trolley.
Oh, how I remember riding the PCC's between Woodland and Science Park!
There are still pay-to-exit stations at Quincy and Braintree on the Red line in Boston; one more token to leave (or swipe your Zone 2 or higher pass). It takes two tokens or the appropriate pass to enter at these stations.
Not only is it a true story, but George O'Brien just passed away a few months ago. The Boston Globe ran a story about all this at that time.
I found some information for you from the following website:
http://www.cgrg.ohio-state.edu/~spencer/FF/F.html
Here's a summary of what it says:
"The MTA Song" provides an interesting example of the folk process. In the late 19th century, Henry Work wrote a song called "The Ship That Never Returned" ("Did she ever return, no, she never returned, and her fate is still
unlearned..."). This was the indirect forerunner of "The Wreck of the Old 97". In 1948, J. Steiner and Bess Lomax Hawes wrote a parody of it called "The MTA Song", a humorous poke at Boston's Metropolitan Transit Authority, who had raised the subway fare. The song is about a man named Charlie who can't get off the subway because he lacks the nickel that must be paid before exiting ("He may ride forever 'neath the streets of Boston, he's the man who never returned..."). The
song was actually a campaign song for a politician who promised to repeal the fare increase. In the late 50s, it was recorded by
the Kingston Trio, who had a popular hit with it, though the politician "George O'Brien" is fictitious [!??!!?].
Hawes, Bess Lomax (1921- ) sister of Lomax, Alan, Bess is both a collector and a singer-guitarist. She assisted in the
production of the Lomaxes' books, and joined the newly-formed Almanac Singers in the late 40s. She co-authored (with
Jacqueline Steiner) "The MTA Song" about the same time (see folk process). She has played at major festivals and taught
folklore at US universities.
I am virtually certain that the lyrics to this song were posted to nyc.transit or one of the Boston transit related usenet newsgroups about a year and a half ago.
--Mark
Thanks to all who responded, I've been able to locate a CD by the Kingston Trio with M.T.A.
I'm sure my Mom will love it.
Happy Holidays to all.
I HAVE BEEN A NYC SUBWAY FANATIC FOR MANY YEARS AND I AM QUITE DISAPPOINTED TO SEE EXPRESS SERVICE DISCONTINUED. THE F TRAIN FOR MANY YEARS HAD RUN EXPRESS FROM 179 ST IN JAMAICA, TO 71 AND CONTINENTAL IN FOREST HILLS. THIS WAS STOPPED (FOR SOME TIME NOW) REASON GIVEN BECAUSE OF THE NEW JAMAICA ARCHER STATION FOR THE E TRAIN. THAT IS NOT AN EXCUSE TO STOP F EXPRESS SERVICE. THE R OR G TRAINS CAN CONTINUE TO 179 ST FROM 71ST AND CONTINENTAL RUNNING LOCAL, THEREBY GIVING THE F TRAIN THE RIGHT TO ONCE AGAIN USE THE EXPRESS TRACKS. I LOVED THE F TRAIN RACING FROM CONTINENTAL TO 179 ST DURING RUSH HOURS. BY RUNNING EXPRESS AGAIN, IT CAN LOOSEN UP THE CONGESTION AND USED TRACK THAT IS JUST WASTING THERE.
You would still have congestion getting into 179st with the additional service.I remember one night it took me 15 minutes to go from Parsons Blvd to 179st because of congestion at 179st.That takes into account using both relay positions(place where trains go to turn to go in the opposite direction). It was even worse sometimes when the G went up there late at night because they were laying up F trains at the same time G service was terminating.The point is no matter what,you are going to encounter some sort of delay , at the least,between 169st and 179st because of trains at 179st or south of 179st.
179th has a total of eight relay tracks on two levels. Four are from the local track and four are from the express.
For years (since 1953) until the R train was cut back, two services were provided to 179th.
Also you don't have enough manpower to relay those trains to the other side. In addition, you have trains laid up in several spots already. The four relay tracks on the local can only hold one train per track so if you have a train laid up on one or two tracks down there,thats 2 less spaces available.The relay positions on the upper level hold 2 trains per track for a total of 8.It isn't that simple.You cannot just have a train enter 179st and relay it around.You have to place it in the proper position in order to have the train make its scheduled interval,and at the same time lay up your scheduled trains.The reason I said lay up trains is that I wasn't sure if you knew that they store trains there.
The reason why service was dicontinued was two fold to inprove the reliabity on the R and to save money. By the way express service will return when 63rd Street opens anyhow.
Does anyone remember when the F ran exp on Culver in the post Chrystie St days.During rush hours all F's ran exp between Bergen St and Church and Coney Is F's ran exp in the direction of traffic between Churcu Av and Kings Highway, This was gradually whittled away until there was exp only between 18 Av and King Hwy,that too has ceased.It was said that the people in Park Slope complained when the F's ran exp so they made them locals.Unfortunately this condemned the citizens of southern Brooklyn to one of the slowest subway rides in the world.
The major reason why express service on the Culver line withered away has to do with the Bergen St. lower level platform. When that platform was in use, there was a transfer between the F express on the lower level, and the GG local and F Kings Highway local on the upper. So, if you got on at Carroll St. or Smith-9th St., and a GG entered the station, you took that to Bergen St. and waited for the next F-train. When Bergen St. lower level closed down, and was detiled, a rider who got on at Carroll or Smith-9th street lost the transfer between the GG local and the F-express on the lower level thus laeading to a reduction of service and neighborhood complaints. Eventually the F-express was reduced then eliminated. If express service was to ever resume on the Culver, the lower level of Bergen St. would have to be rennovated, something the TA has yet to do.
[When that platform was in use, there was a transfer between the F express on the lower level, and the GG local and F Kings Highway local on the upper. So, if you got on at Carroll St. or Smith-9th St., and a GG entered the station, you took that to Bergen St. and waited for the next F-train. When Bergen St. lower level closed down, and was detiled, a rider who got on at Carroll or Smith-9th street lost the transfer between the GG local and the F-express on the lower level thus laeading to a reduction of service and neighborhood complaints. Eventually the F-express was reduced then eliminated.]
I wasn't aware that "Bergen Lower" (as I think of it, a reflex from hearing references to Toronto's "Bay Lower") was ever in use at all. Why bother to strip a station of its tiles in order to mothball it?
With the F-express running local past Bergen anyway (only two tracks to Jay, York, and under the river), there would only be a change in the frequency of service (two F services instead of one--was the headway on the local much longer than it is today?) rather than quality.
The only obstacles to F-express and a G to Church or King's Highway is the presumably minimal work that needs to be done on Bergen Lower, rolling stock, and the people to operate it.
-Daniel Casey
I lived in Brooklyn for a short time in 1972 and remember passengers at Bergen St Station straddling the stairways to catch the next F to Manhattan since the trains from Coney came in on the lower(exp) level and the ones from Kings Highway came in on the upper(lcl)level.There was a similar situation at Delancy and Essex when both the KK/K and F
were running and passengers would wait on the stairwells for the next northbound Sixth Av train.
Redbird
They were stripped due to water seepage buckling the wall tiles. That, and the fact that, especially in the AM rush, station dwell time upstairs & downstairs was lengthier than normal due passengers not knowing which platform the next "F" would arrive on. So you had passengers "not in place" for the next arrival.
> Unfortunately this condemned the citizens of southern Brooklyn to
> one of the slowest subway rides in the world.
True, but not slower than the N local. What a long, boring ride through Brooklyn.
--Mark
Mark.I think we could start a whole column on the slowest and/or most boring subway rides. I agree with you though the N does seem to be going for some sort of record as the slowest train on the system.Another long stretch as I recall was the No 6 from 125 St to Hunt's Point. I know its not that long a distance but the train seemed to take forever.Do you have any other canidates?
Regards,Redbird.
I'll give you one: the "A" to Far Rockaway when the "C" doesn't operate. Local in Manhattan, local in Brooklyn, local in Queens.
How about the 4 during the late hours when it runs local?
My mother always felt the J was a slow, tedious ride along Broadway-Brooklyn, although I didn't think so.
My candidates for "long boring rides" besides the N:
- D from Coney Island to DeKalb Ave
- C during weekdays
- B (only if you catch R-68s which have no railfan window)
- F from Coney Island to 53rd St
- R (not quite as bad in Brooklyn but still poor)
- 2/5 from Flatbush/Nostrand to Franklin Ave (OK - not that long)
--Mark
[My candidates for "long boring rides" besides the N:
- F from Coney Island to 53rd St]
How about the F out to 179th? It's underground all the way, and certainly qualifies as looooong.
how about my ride to school every day. Utica Avenue to Bedford Pk. Blvd. on the 4. about 1:45
How about the Canarsie Line from 8 Av to Halsey St. It pokes it's head above ground at Wilson Av but buries itself again at Bushwick-Aberdeen.
Redbird
And then it comes leaping out of the tunnel! A ride on the Canarsie Line is NEVER boring for me - I get to marvel again and again at the beautiful tilework left there by Squire J. Vickers & Co. Also if I wait around for one of the Slant R40s that live there, I go for the elongated railfan window. And those curves! Ahhhh, that's a subway ride!
Wayne (L's my middle name)
Too bad neither one of us ever rode the multisectionals when they ran on the Canarsie. They were anything but boring. I hear they used to whip around those curves, and can only imagine how fast they went through the 14th St. tunnel. They didn't have "Hold on" signs for nothing! Of course, I was born in 1956, by which time the A was running out to Lefferts Blvd. and the multis had been reassigned to the Myrtle-Chambers line.
[how about my ride to school every day. Utica Avenue to Bedford Pk. Blvd. on the 4. about 1:45]
Yep, I'd say that would count as a pretty wretched ride ...
re: F under Queens Blvd ... I don't think that's as bad as the others. It runs express. (Overnight is another story).
The L train I don't consider boring because you can always get the cab view. I don't consider the cab view on the L boring at all.
The same can be said of the 4. How can the express run under Lexington Ave be considered boring :)
--Mark
Mark .You right,when you can look out the front window the whole run is more interesting.However when we were all a little younger we had to ride where our parents rode and sitting in the middle of a train looking at dark walls wasn't very much fun.Of course now knowing what we do about turnouts,unused or planned lines and general history it make the ride where our parents rode.Still I can't work up much enthusiasm for the 14 Street-Eastern District Line but I concur that the N0 4 is a facinating ride.
Best Wishes,Redbird.
Mark. Forgive the typo in the previous message. What I meant to say was riding the trains now with all that we know about the history and operations make the trip far more interesting.
Regards,Redbird
Here, here. I second the notion. I rode the L regularly from 8th Ave. to Lorimer St. for three years, and never considered it boring, even though it's a local route. Then again, 10 minutes isn't an eternity, either. Looking back, I was fortunate to have been a regular passenger on that line during the transition from BMT standards to R-7/9s and finally R-42s.
Other than that, any prolonged ride on a local would be boring to me. I still don't like the idea of stopping at every station. Call me Mr. Express Addict.
Even express rides can be boring, especially if the express lopes along while locals blow right by. Can anyone say D trains of R-68s? What a mismatch! Booorriiinnnnggggg....
Happy holidays, everyone!
I remember as a kid that my mom would never ride the first car. So whenever we went to her doctor on 86th St & 5th Ave, Manhattan, we'd take the D from Brighton Beach to Atlantic Ave and transfer to the 4 or 5 and take that to 86th. Back then, the fleet was comprised of R-17s. I remember how fast the light bulbs would pass in the windows and would sometimes be afraid that the motorman would lose control of the train and that we would crash.
Even then, I remember Atlantic Ave being dark, dank and dirty. I think it's getting a major facelift starting in 1999.
--Mark
Mark: I lived in the Bronx and every year usually after school ended we would take a trip to Coney Island. We took the IRT to 14 Street and changed to the BMT.For some reason we always seemed to get a Brighton train outbound and that was very exciting because of the Manhattan Bridge crossing and the beatiful run on the embankment fron Newkirk Av south not to mention the view of the ocean and Coney Island itself as you neared the terminal.Coming home was another story as we always seemed to end up on the Sea Beach and had the long interminable ride staring at those concrete walls. Don't get me wrong on this the Sea Beach is a fascinating line but when your a youngster sitting in the middle of the train your point of view is somewhat limited.
Regards,Redbird
When I lived on Kings Highway in Brooklyn and went to high school on Church Ave and Ocean Pkwy, I used to take the B-5 to Kings Highway / East 15th St, then an M to Coney Island and transfer for an F to Church Ave, even though it was more direct to go by bus (B-41 to Church Ave/Flatbush Ave, B-35 to Church Ave/E 5 St) and I didn't have a train pass.
I quickly learned to use construction paper in the same color as the train pass and fling it real fast to the token booth clerk, making sure the coast was clear first :) Worked most of the time.
Once it didn't work and I learned what the word "alias" was :)
--Mark
A few words to my good friends about the L train. When the letter codes were assigned to the BMT the J was chosen for Jamaica and the K for broadway-bKlyn and M for Myrtle.It was seen logical the the 14 St Line was given LL for long-long ride, although it has gotten faster and now has only one L. (Just kidding)
Redbird.
BOO! ( i HATE puns!)
Back in 1968, running times began to appear on maps. The LL had a running time of 35 minutes from end to end, and this was when the BMT standards were still around.
Ah, yes; but in 1968 the LL was an R-7 and R-9 operation, with a sprinkling of new R42s (I feel very old calling R42s new) - I rode on a brand spanking R40M on there Aug. 4, 1969. We could only go as far as E.105th St cause they were still rebuilding the Rockaway Parkway station which had burned up the previous summer. 'Twas #4300 and #4301, before their renumberation to AS- or CB- whatever and the later fateful encounter with an R16 at Roosevelt Avenue the following May (#4501 - she was mashed but she did survive - the R16 was not so fortunate- she split the concrete piller).
Wayne
I remember seeing R-7/9s on the Canarsie for the first time in January of 1969. The standards lasted until, I believe, August. By the time the school year began that September, the standards were gone. I don't remember for sure if the R-42s first appeared on the Canarsie before the last of the standards departed from the scene. I do recall seeing and riding the R-42s that fall. Back then, they would still use the Brooklyn-bound track between 8th Ave. and 3rd Ave. for train storage
on winter weekends, and Brooklyn-bound trains had to wrong rail until just before 3rd Ave., where they would switch tracks. On the R-42s, the conductor would announce, "Brooklyn train, Brooklyn train, this is an LL train to Brooklyn" at 6th Ave. and Union Square.
I know the R-7s and R-9s were on the LL by the Spring of '69, because we took a class trip and got on at the First Ave. station, and rode on the unmistakeable Car No. 1575, with the modified R-10 interior. The other memorable thing about that ride, in a preview of the 1970s maintenance program, was that one set of doors on the right side of the car did not open at all at First Ave., which left a lot of people scrambling for the adjacent doors.
By that time, the R-1/9s were receiving little, if any, maintenance - probably just enough to keep them running. After all, new cars were on the way. I was under the impression that the R-7s and R-9s which wound up on the Eastern Division received a little more attention. While sticking doors became commonplace, I personally don't remember seeing that on those cars which ran on the Canarsie.
BTW, how did the doors sound on 1575? Did they open and close the same as the R-10s, or did they act the same as the doors on their sister units? I never saw or rode on 1575, interestingly enough.
I don't remember the exact same sound on 1575 as on the real R-10s, though I do remember it didn't have that low-pitched sound the normal R-1 through 9s made when their doors opened. I do remember standing inside the car at Third Ave. watching to see if anyone would stand in front of the broken door and waiting for their reaction when nothing happened. After that, the doors opened on the center platform at Union Sqare, 6th and 8th, so the broken doors weren't a factor.
I LOVE IT ALL.BUT THE RIDE I LOVE THE LEAST,IT HAS TO BE THE "THE L TRAIN".OTHER THAN AT B'WAY JUNCTION,WHERE IS THE ACTION?NO SWICHES,NO EXPRESS SERVICE,NUTTIN'.IT SUCKS!
My aunt used to live on 76 st in Jackson Heights, and we used to stay there overnight and go to Coney the next morning..taking the F train all the way...talk about long and boring!! I wonder why we never just took the 7 to Queens Plaza then the N..certainly a shorter trip in those days! (late 60's..)
I took the Brighton for the hell of it this morning. When the doors opened at Atlantic, the stench of urine was overpowering.
What is boring is the G train between Queens Plaza and Hoyt/Schermahorn Steeets. The middle track at Bedford Avenue dosen't do much for me.
That middle track was put in for a never-built extension along Lafayette Ave. which would have linked up with the Myrtle Ave. Central Ave. line. It splits in two, then ends where the G turns north toward Myrtle-Willoughby Aves. Apparently, this track arrangement would have permitted through service (there are switches on either side of the station at Bedford-Nostrand) or turnbacks.
There is also room for a middle track at Classon Ave.
[That middle track was put in for a never-built extension along Lafayette Ave. which would have linked up with the Myrtle Ave. Central Ave. line. It splits in two, then ends where the G turns north toward Myrtle-Willoughby Aves. Apparently, this track arrangement would have permitted through service (there are switches on either side of the station at Bedford-Nostrand) or turnbacks.]
That's what I had assumed, but I've never seen any reference to a Lafayette line, either on its own or as a replacement for Lexington service. It's not described in the IND Second System summary posted elsewhere on this site; where'd you find out about it?
Turnbacks seem a more likely use, given that the third track is about halfway between what would have been the G's two major transfer points; Hoyt-Schermerhorn and the roughed-in Broadway station. If the line were to branch and run up Lafayette I would have expected a more elaborate junction. Having bidirectional service on one track is not very IND-ish.
-Daniel Casey
The IND Second System summary in Joe Korman's website at www.quuxuum.org mentions this planned extension along Lafayette Ave.
My guess is that had this extension been built, through trains would have switched over at the point where the two tracks are present; trains turning back would have terminated on the middle track. I wouldn't be at all surprised if it was intended to replace the Lexington, if not the Myrtle Ave. el.
Come to think of it, that extension is not included on the 1929 map in the 12 Street and Transit maps book which is also mentioned on this website.
In Stan Fischler's book, "The Subway", he claims the middle track was for a Bedford Avenue Line which was never built.
Mark
Mark. I did say that the N seems to be going for some kind of a record as the slowest train on the system. This is of course when it shows up at all. The Broadway-Manhattan Service has really declined.The fastest train now is the S 63 St Shuttle between 57 St and 34 St. Its a sad day for the BMT when a shuttle outruns the main line honchos. Years ago we used to say that the IND was called the Independent Subway because it came when it wanted to.
Regards,Redbird.
Very true. The 4th Ave Brooklyn and 7th Ave / Broadway BMT subways were at one time the showcases of the BMT. It's sad what they've become.
--Mark
Rob, you might be interested in something I discovered Monday night this week in exploring sections of the NY Subways web site. Under the 'History' section, there was a heading for '1955 New York Expresses,' which, naturally, I looked at, only to discover it was something I had posted on Usenet four years ago.
Except for Sixth Avenue (West 4th to 34th) and extension of Fulton express service from East New York to Euclid Avenue, everything else has been cut, cut, cut.
I think even the rebuilding of Franklin Avenue, needed as it is, is being done in such a way (short platforms, for example) as to make certain that no trains will run from Franklin south of Prospect Park, even though having Franklins cover the local would allow all Brighton Manhattan service to run express in Brooklyn.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potdam
(Even the way the Franklin Ave shuttle is being built will discourage local service to Fulton) Not if Subtalkers are riding. You only need two cars to take people as far as the next express station, where all the subtalkers would get off. Maybe if you could run it OPTO it might pay.
How much are people willing to "pay" in wait or transfer time to get an express? The TA can't afford to run 3/4 empty trains. Would you be willing to give up the West End and ride the bus to the Sea Beach if it were express? -- you could put 20 trains an hour on the Sea Beach, with 10 of the skipping stations if you moved the trains from the West End.
The TA seems to try to minimize wait time, with more locals. It seems that Subtalkers would rather wait (or transfer) then move fast (or at least not have their guts sloshed around by stops).
Larry Littlefield misquoted me about the Franklin rebuilding. What I said was that I thought part of the TA's plan in shortening the platforms was to ensure that "no trains will run from Franklin south of Prospect Park, even though having Franklins cover the local would allow all Brighton Manhattan service to run express in Brooklyn." When the Brighton was first connected into DeKalb, in fact, the normal local service for the Brighton was from Franklin Avenue and locals service lasted during rush hours well into the TA era. The Franklin is being structurally converted into a permanent shuttle-only route and I think that's really unfortunate for the future for people who use the Brighton.
Having both 6th Avenue and Broadway expresses on the Brighton would seem to be something that Brighton riders would find attractive. Fourth Avenue riders used to have that choice and no doubt appreciated the option. Perhaps there could be some rush-hour specials that would run local along the Brighton in Brooklyn and express in Manhattan, but the TA historically seems to think that specials are something to be avoided at all costs, no matter how convenient they may be.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
> Perhaps there could be some rush-hour specials that would run local
> along the Brighton in Brooklyn and express in Manhattan, but the TA
> historically seems to think that specials are something to be
> avoided at all costs, no matter how convenient they may be.
Let me take the simplistic view here. Wouldn't a "special" get in the way of already tight schedules and therefore impose delays on existing subway lines? Is it worth imposing an inconvenience on many people for the convenience of a smaller number of people?
The QB used to be such a local that ran local in Brooklyn and express in Broadway in Manhattan. Later on it became the Q. But the Manhattan Bridge south side has been closed for so long and rider's habits are now so well engrained that I wonder if restoration of such a service would be beneficial. I guess we'll see when the north side of the Bridge closes :)
--Mark
Rider's habits will be pretty scrambled when A & B tracks of the bridge are closed for (a minimum of) two years. After that, anything is possible.
It comes down to whether enough people will go out of their way to take a special to fill the train. If so, little changes. If not, you end up with more crowding on the other trains.
If you look between Hicksville and Mineola there are tracks that feed of the main line that go into some factories. They seem long abandoned. Does anyone know why/when they were abandoned?
[If you look between Hicksville and Mineola there are tracks that feed of the main line that go into some factories. They seem long abandoned. Does anyone know why/when they were abandoned?]
What you're seeing are just old industrial spurs rather than remains of actual lines. Most likely they were abandoned gradually over the years as rail freight became less important on Long Island and trucking took much of its business.
In the NY Post for Sunday December 20, 1998, page 40, is a article about unused bridge and tunnel tokend are making a mint for the MTA's bridges and tunnels division. The toll-collection agency has amassed a $22 million windfall from motorists who brought but never used discount tokens and truck tickets.
Your thoughts on this article are most welcome.
Charlie Muller.
I have several rolls here, want to buy one :-(
(Our buses & Dispatcher used to use them, now we have E-Z-Pass)
Mr t__:^)
I can comment on the Metrocard aspect: A metrocard including the unlimited cards (until they are used for the first time) have an expiration date on the back- right now the date I've seen at most booths is 02/29/00- the cards can be exchanged for a new card until 1 year after this date--in this example 02/28/01. After the redemption period expires any money is "donated" to MTA--it is lost forever.
When the card is expired the station agent will transfer any money to as new card--the computer will automatically refuse to add any money if the card is already expired.
I can comment on the Metrocard aspect: A metrocard including the unlimited cards (until they are used for the first time) have an expiration date on the back- right now the date I've seen at most booths is 02/29/00- the cards can be exchanged for a new card until 1 year after this date--in this example 02/28/01. After the redemption period expires any money is "donated" to MTA--it is lost forever.
When the card is expired the station agent will transfer any money to a new card--the computer will automatically refuse to add any money if the card is already expired.
For those of you who think Statiuon Agents have cushy jobs:
Yesterday was one of those days for NYCT-especially the IRT. When I entered the system I sawe a redbird holding at Fulton (Manhattan)for a long time and another at Wall (Manhattan). I get to Hoyt (Brooklyn) and never sawe another 2 or 3. I told the agent in the booth there was a problem. I no sooner finished my comment when they announced the disruption. I then asked her to call the supervisor and to open the block tickets. I then got the megaphone and cleared the station (no flooding in Brooklyn.) The supervisor arrived about 20 minutes later to find a calm peaceful station while expecting to find bedlam like there was at Atlantic Ave. About 30 minutes later a smoke condition temporarily knocked out the A,F,G at Hoyt Schermerhorn. I spent four hours at street level advising potential riders of alternate service.
Oh yes- at the same time of the South disruption a sick passenger caused Bronx trains to run express from E 180 to 149/3av.
I told the agent in the booth that the trains will be out about 3-4 hours--and hit it on the money. Around 5 pm trains resumed. Even aty 930pm there were still wet spots at Manhattan stations from Wall to Park Place and slow speed in the tunnel from Clark to Chambers.
When I got to Newark Penn more problems- a child walked off the train and walked straight into the gap between train and platform. I played traffic control while NJT, NJT Police, EMS tended to the child.
that folks is ..all in a day's work! (and you thought we had as soft job!)
SubwayBuff-
I would want you working in my station if there were problems!
You sound like you can handle these difficult situations well and smoothly. As someone once said on here, I don't think it'll be long until you're in Supervision.
But you should have been on the road at the time you first came on. Aside from the water main break at Wall St (7th Ave), the Broadway drawbridge was stuck in the open position, disrupting 1 service and the gap fillers at 14 St SB local track were out of service. This resulted in 6 trains either running express from 14th St to Brooklyn Bridge, or making all local stops but bypassing 14th St. Now, your job is to relay this info to the customers before you take them hostage, so that they don't try to hurt you when they leave. Keep in mind though, that a lot of them do not speak English - or at least don't understand simple things like "This is the last stop. All customers MUST leave the train." and most of the rest won't listen, because they know that the Conductor can't speak clearly and /or doesn't know what he is saying. Unfortunately, I can't speak to everybody one-on-one while I'm operating.
I won't forget that Saturday any time soon.
I was on the #3 that day and as you may know they do not reroute the #3 train.
I was on my last trip of the day 1228 New Lots to Lenox. We get to Atlantic Ave, holding lights. Nothing is getting thru the Clark street tubes because of a water main break near Wall St. We are turned back via the Nevins spur, in service to New Lots. Spent the rest of the afternoon making trips between New Lots & Atlantic Ave.
#2's got rerouted up East side.
So much for going home at 1333hrs. Plus side- Made 4 1\2 hours plus Bonus!!!!
Guess what? Paris now has their Metro stations smeeling of perfume.
They scrub the tiles and floor with thr perfume in the detergent!
What remains is a slight smell of perfume. People were complaining about the common grease and oil odors that all subways have. Some say
the perfume is helping,others say it makes them sick! What do all you SUBTALK fans think?
Chuck Greene
They should try that here in New York. Everyone who rides the nyc subway know's that the smell in the subway of urine, grease and other odor's can be overwheming. It might help mask the unnatural odor's.
Charlie Muller.
Urine is a natural oder. Body oder is a natural oder.
Perfume is unnatural. Cologne is unnatural
You must be very popular,especially on crowded trains. Have any views on flatulence?
Yeah I do, smartass -- that's natural too.
I don't know about you, but I never heard of a dog wearing Canoe or a cat wearing Estay Lauder.
Or how about Colgate on the breath of a Lion?
Hope it didn't pass too high over your head.
Get a sense of humor, for crying out loud.
It WAS made in jest...Talk about no sense of humor!
On the serious side,I have VIVID recollections of the days before A/C cars and meaningful station cleaning. Such as holding my breath in the passageways at Union Square,14th & 8th and Times Sq. due to the stench of urine. Or being in a crowded non A/C car next to someone with questionable hygiene practices. Or how a single unwashed skell can render a 75 foot car uninhabitable. As natural as these odOrs may be,they AIN'T pleasant when uncontrolled.
This reminds me of a funny story.
My father used to work in the fur trade. One day in the late '70s, he was working with skunk fur. And we all know how nice skunk smells. Anyway, after working with the fur for a while, I guess my dad got used to the smell and it didn't bother him.
At 5pm, he left for home (worked on W 27th St in Manhattan). Middle of rush hour. He walked to 34th St to pick up a Brooklyn bound D train. Got on as usual, even got a seat. The seasoned rider he was, he promptly closed his eyes to get some quick Zzzz's. When he opened his eyes at Broadway-Lafayette just to be aware of his surroundings, what a surprise - the entire car was empty. He thought the train was taken out of service, but when he looked into the cars in front of and behind his, they were packed. He couldn't understand why ... until he remembered what he worked on that day. With a laugh, he closed his eyes again and enjoyed a rare rush hour ride on the D train with a carfully to himself.
I guess maybe he forgot to shower in tomato juice? :)
I'm surprised, to this day, that he wasn't thrown off the train.
Happy holidays!
--Mark
Why, (from what I have seen) do most NYCTA employees flash their pass on MNCRR and LIRR and normally get on for free but if a MNCRR or LIRR employee tries to do the opposite the station agent wont let them through?
NYCT, LIRR and MNRR are all MTA agencies. However, the official policy is that NYCT passes are not honored on the other two nor does NYCT honor LIRR or Metro-North passes. However, there is the matter of courtesy. Since AMTRAK and LIRR employees belong to the same unions, there is a reciprocal courtesy extended. Some LIRR and MNRR conductors also extend a courtesy to NYCT employees and I'm sure that some clerks at Penn Station, Grand Central Station, Sutphin Blvd. and flatbust Ave. extend a similar courtesy. Traditionally, railroad passes have been honored across the country and for the most part, I have found this to be true, especially outside of NY...
A further point here. I believe that MNRR Non-Agreement people(management) have passes good on all agencies but agreemnent employees do not.
you're probably right.Last Wednesday, I observed 6 people show some sort of pass to the conductor on the L.I.R.R. all in suits.
Back in 1986 on the Staten Island Railway, the MTA President got on and the conductor asked him for his fare. The Chairman showed the conductor his MTA ID, the conductor said that it was not good on the SIRT and he would have to pay.
At that point someone pointed out to the conductor exactly WHO this person was and with a sly grin the MTA chairman told the conductor he was totaly correct in asking for fare and that his MTA ID was not good.
I wonder what the SIRT bosses did to the conductor??
I had my school pass at the time >G<.
He probably got commended and chewed out. Several years ago myself and a friend (who's a NYCT employee) were railfanning SEPTA'S Norristown line and when he identified himself at a TA employee to the SEPTA operator - he immediately extended the ride-free courtesy to us.
Damned if you do and damned if you don't, huh?
You are lucky. Years ago with a train operators pass before the metrocard I was asked to pay a fare on a MABSTOA bus on the BX 9 bus. I couldn't stand that people were railfanning for free on mainline railroads but I had to pay to go to work on the same system I work for. The MTA bosses SHOULD pay ALL their fares considering their overblown salaries
The unofficial motto of the TA is "divide & conquor". That bus driver probably made you pay for one of 2 reasons: (1) some clerk of TA bus driver made HIM pay; or (2) he was a rookie.
I disagree.The driver probably felt that since it was a subways employee,MAKE HIM PAY. THEY DON'T GO ALONG WITH SONNY HALLS' GIVEBACKS. Tense times ahead between buses and subways.
I disagree. See my posting of Tues. 12/22 @ 18:02.
Yeah I saw it.I knew all along you were a bus driver supporter.
If you have an axe to grind please dont do it here mike, this page is dedicated to transit fans employees and all others. It does not look nice when outsiders see the divisions at battle over union politics which bottom line is destroying ourselves! When you see pictures of transit workers at rally's and strikes they are all there together, not Train operators, bus operators, etc. If you have a problem with your local or division then you run or vote for your man, leave it out of here already!
I always vote for the people I want(new directions).However,The candidate for vice president in our division was rejected by the members in our division, but overwhelmingly voted by your division and Brooklyn T.A. drivers.
I remember one day I decided to take the local to Croton Harmon and then connect with the express to poughkeepsie about three years ago on MNCRR from NYC. While waiting for the connection at croton an Amtrak to Abany pulled in. The conductor asked me where I was going and I said I was waiting for the train to poughkeepsie, He told me that I was free to get on and I said no thanks, knowing that even if I had to pay, the MTA does not want anyone riding Amtrak between NYC and Pougkeepsie anyway. So the next day I went to Penn and looked for the same train to Albany, and it was the same 21 yr old conductor I saw the night before. He honored my pass (at the time I had a Dependant pass), and I took the Adorandak express to Poughkeepsie. I never saw him again.
I remember some years ago - two MaBSTOA bus operators were waiting at 225th St-Broadway (probably just finishing their runs on the old BX20) for a ride over the Broadway bridge to the Kingsbridge depot. Many times they would catch a M100, BX10 or a dead-heading bus, but on this day a Liberty Lines Express bus stop for the two MaBSTOA b/o.
I have to pay for both systems. However, there are some that will refuse to take my tixcket (NJT) or will swipe me in PATH).
I do provide train service info for both systems and assist as needed such as giving PATH conductor subway info from WTC when their midtown line was out and the accident at Newark Penn the other day when a child fell between the train and station platform- kid was OK> I just kept back th crowd and told the passengers that "there is a medical emergency outside the train. we should be moving shortly.
Once I got to ride AMTRAK for free( not a train honoring NJT tickets)
Its much easier for a bus operator or railroad conductor to extend the courtesy but it is harder for clerks to do so with the advent of metrocard turnstiles. Also we at NYC must worry about undercover riders (supervision) watching us do this. On the buses it is offical policy that everyone dips there card in the box, and if they dont dip they pay. Even the Transit bureau police have a metrocard they must swipe.
But I heard that some MABSTOA busdrivers don't accept Dept of subway passes because of union politics.Contract time coming up.Subways vs buses.
There are two type of passes for NYCT employees- if they have the letter E on the pass then that person pays for MABSTOA.
Now for subways: IF it is a MABSTOA pass with orange or green picture background and the letter E, then that person must pay for the subway.
NYCT and MABSTOA passes with the letter U and red or blue picture background can ride for free: Subway, all NYCT and MABSTOA local bus lines. Private lines such as Queens surface are not free (according to the rules at least). MABSOTA employees may be admitted for a comfort break but they have to sign for the key.
Now SIRT: Even NYCT employees (including MABSTOA) must pay unless they are a SIRT employee. (I do not have the rules on whether SIRT employees have to pay on the subway).
****disclaimer: while this post is based on the official rules, it is my personal opinion and not that of MTA or NYCT**
Opinion: since SIRT, private lines are all the same fare all MTA employees should be able to ride any of those with the pass. I further wish that we be allowed to ride LIRR and Metro North within NY State. I also think that since we'd be riding free that private line employees have free rides too. PATH: I think a deal with the PA and MTA should allow reciprical free rides.
Staten Island local bus is NYCT and we ride for free. All express bus rides we have to pay regular fare (according to the rules.)
I disagree. We are one big happy family! The word "union" is synonymous with "united" and that is what all Local 100 members are. Subways and buses united!
Bill, just a reminder. The rule book prohibits the wearing of tinted lenses, even if they are 'rose colored'.
OK OK Im going to stop my union politics and work toward unity.What do you have to say Mr. Mabstoa. Are you with me or against me?
As of last week I was promoted to a supervisory position (dispatcher) so I can't be with you, but in spirit I am! Bottom line we as transit workers must rise above the circumstances and let all the buffs throughout the world who come on this page see we are professionals and not a bunch of bums. Especially the few of us that have access to the internet as we do, its our chance to let it shine, and I apoligize to any fellow transit workers that I offended in the past due to my short temper!
Does anybody here in the Philly area remember a song back I think in the 70's titled "YOU CAN'T GET TO HEAVEN ON THE FRANKFORD EL'? I beleive some local group recorded it.
What I do recall of it was that it's much older than the 70's. It was old when I was a kid in the early 60's! Every so often a DJ on the oldies station will dust it off and play it.
Yes, I'm responding to a nearly four-year-old topic.
"Frankford El" was by The American Dream, 1969, produced & engineered by Todd Rundgren.
Susan--are you out there? Have you seen the light bulbs on the 14th St. IND Sixth Ave. (F train) platform and in the mezzanine of that station?
Yesh - in fact I was there Saturday taking photos in the picturesque mezzanine and corridor that leads to the "L" train station. What lovely ambient light! I also saw a closed stairway that I had never seen before in there, complete with the decorative "Canarsie line frieze" at the top of the stairs. BTW they are starting to scrub the tile band down there (the "L" station), bits of the original colors are slowly emerging from years of gunk, grunge and grime. They need to get the guys who cleaned up Pacific St. and 36th Street to really do it right. The IND station is also lit with the incandescent lights in the mezz.
Wayne
Speaking of taking pictures, where are some other good stations to take pictures of? I have been wanting for a long time to take a weekend and practice my photography taking pictures of NYC subway stations. Any suggestions?
Broadway Junction is an excellent spot. The elevated structure is among the most complex anywhere in the world, serving the J/Z and L lines with some structure from the old Fulton El still remaining.
And to add to Peter Rosa's suggestion for BJ (I have 18 pictures of it), ANY station on the Canarsie Line (while you're out there)- Wilson , Bushwick-Aberdeen, Jefferson, Morgan and Montrose are quite nice; try your hand at flash settings by taking a picture of an IND tile band (where it's on a trackside wall), the original decorations up and down the Lexington line; Coney Island-Stillwell (from the footbridge),
the IRT Flatbush Avenue line, Borough Hall on the 4/5 (a MUST!), the Eyes at Chambers/WTC (plus the somber funereal purple tiles), countless others. I have about 1100 pictures of stations and trains so far. FYI - use 400 Speed Film. Kodak 400 Gold max is the one I use exclusively.
Wayne (fresh off another photo trip-12/19/98)
Do you have any good suggestions on how to take good pictures of Flushing Express trains as they zoom through local stops?
I tried this on a couple occasions from the platform of the 52nd Street station, once on a clear day, the other on a moody, drizzly autumn evening, both times producing very blurry results. It seems next to impossible to get a good shot.
What about the Port Authority Bus Terminal? I've taken a few pictures of buses from the 3rd floor arrivals platform on Friday afternoon rush hours (excellant opportunity) and again, got blurred pictures.
I'm also wondering if photographing in the bus terminal is permitted. I did it on a few occasions and nobody even glanced in my direction.
When photographing moving trains, you must use a film with at least a 400 Speed. Even so, you may get blurring if the train is moving away from you at better than 25 MPH. If you want to photograph trains at speed, try 800 Speed film, but you may get grainy results. I have taken pictures of trains moving towards me successfully with the Kodak 400 Gold Max film. But Rule One is: NEVER fire your flash in the face of the operator. If you want to take a flash picture of the front of a train, wait till the train is fully stopped then aim the flash to the far right of the operator's seat. Better still - take your front-end photos at the train's terminal, wherever that may be.
Rule Two is: try and get as few people in the photo as possible, and if you can't avoid people, try and make sure their backs are turned.
Suggestions for interior photos: If your interior is shiny (R62, R68, etc.) aim the flash for an advertising panel. For front-window shots:
angle the camera slightly before shooting the picture. Outdoors, you don't need a flash to do this. For tile walls, especially IND tile which is highly glazed, try and angle it so you don't catch the reflection of the station lighting in the tile band. You'll get the hang of it.
Wayne
If you want to freeze action, you need to use a faster shutter speed. With an SLR camera and 400 or 800 speed film, this shouldn't be a problem; with a point-and-shoot, it's easier said than done. Even so, a blurred express train gives the impression that it is, in fact, moving. You can also try panning while holding down the shutter release. Follow the train's movement with the camera. The train will remain in focus while everything else will be blurred. A slower shutter speed should be used.
14th and 8th is being relit with new fluorescent lites. They are not finished wiring them at this point.
NYCT has long range plans to send all non-fluorescent light fixtures to their retirement--projects are underway on the N line in brooklyn and Delancey on the F. Accortding to NYCT's web site there are plans for more relighting of stations.
Station mezzanines, too?
--Mark
The projects include and emphasdize the mezzanines, stairways, passageways-- all areas.
All station platforms have had fluorescent lighting for some time now. The IND mezzanines are a different story; some of the ones which still have incandescent lighting are pretty dimly lit.
Some stations still have incandescent lights: Eastern Pkwy. on the J for one. Also, (help Wayne) on the L, I think Bway Junction, Atlantic Ave. and Sutter Ave.
Correct. Atlantic still has the 1916 Dual Contract lamps with the iron shades. No flourescents under the eaves either. But there IS flourescent light in the mezzanine and in the fare-control area. BJ is still incandescent - on the southwest leg of the citybound platform there are still cages over the lampshades. Sutter has the original 1907 hook-armed lights but many (if not all) shades are missing, leaving bare bulbs. There is flourescent light at the fare-control but not in the wooden walkway. Eastern Parkway (J) is still incandescent, with some original Dual Contract lights at the west end.
The other elevated stops on the "L": Livonia has sodium-vapor on the open platform, with flourescent under the eaves; so does New Lots.
E. 105th is all recent lighting, Rockaway Parkway dates from 1969.
Wayne
Just remember the best reason for incandescents if owning stock in ConEd
Ther ends of 9th ave on the B line also have incandescent lighting- and it works.
Several photos of the Dual-contract lights (east end) as well as their
1960s replacements (west end) were taken September 19 during my fairly extensive 9th Avenue photo study. Nice station! Even has tile in the mezzanine and stationhouse, presumably that's the same pattern as what is downstairs on the lower level. Same kind of design as DeKalb/Pacific/36th/59th stations. Nice lamps too at the east end - they have different arms than the ones on the Eastern division. - corners are rounded.
Wayne
Just was curious to know if anyone out there has any idea when (not if) this classic line will reopen?
I remember the days when that thing seemed like it was being held together with band-aids and Krazy glue!
In 2000, they are supposed to be finished with the project. Minus Dean St., of course(:()
... and it won't look like it's a patchwork quilt of gum and band-aids anymore!
--Mark
Total rebuild for the track and stations (except Prospect Park, that was rebuilt during the Brighton Line station rebuilds).
In addtion there will be a transfer to the IRT and the removale of the need for a paper transfer and Franklin Ave as well as ADA improvments.
The tracks and track bed is gone from Prospect Park as well as from the Map!!!
Can't wait for the IRT connection when the D line goes down the tubes with a block between the Park and Atlantic Ave.
Talking about re-routes, I still remember one time when I was in High School (early 1960s) when the train I was on stalled (or perhaps, one ahead of it did) at Prospect Park. The following local (QT train of R-27s) pulled in on the Franklin Shuttle track and proceeded to Franklin Ave., from which point I transferred to the A train to Manhattan.
Of course, in those days they were still operatining weekend service from Franklin Ave. to Brighton Beach/Coney Island, and the stations on the Franklin line were long enough for 6 car trains.
I am a Bus operator driving a bus replacing the Shuttle. As the posting in my depot say: dec 1999. But talking to some worker on my layovers they be online by Oct 1999 or sooner. The demo work is done, some of the over pass is in place, They are ready to lay track from Empire blvd to st john place ( about 3 weeks away). There are half way done with the Empire Blvd over pass and that there started on that last month.
They say it may be open in the later part of july but the 2,3,4,5 train connection won't be open tell Oct. This is all hearsay
Hi All,
Is anyone already or will take some photos on the Franklin Av while under re-construction? it would be a nice addition to nycsubway.org website (Before reconstruction, during and after)
Have a happy holidays,
Michael Adler
USPS Letter Carrier in Denver, ColorFUL Colorado
Today at around 10 to 4pm, pulling into rector st. the astoria bound slant R40 (N) train stopped about 10 cars short. It stayed stopped for about 10 minutes. Here is what I remember of the dialouge between the train operator and the conductor over the PA. If anyone could interpret for me I would appreciate.
The conductor asked the train operator what happend and he said he lost the rear indicator. He said he would radio it in and that someone must be foolin around in the rear car. He went back to the rear car and then asked do we have indication to the operator. One of them then said 42-91 #8 pannel. The circut was defective and the circut panel was ajar and was open ups some how.
What Happened?
Sounds like #4291 lost her door indication! Oh well, my toys DO break down occasionally... Could have been vandalism, don't know for sure. No train ever proceeds on its own without proper door indication. They usually limp into the next station, discharge their passengers and head off to the Shoppe unless the crew can rectify the problem.
Were you let off at Rector Street?
NB this is based on my own layman's eyes, perhaps one of the techs (Bill or Steve or mike) could elaborate.
Wayne
When doors are closed and locked in the sections to the right and left of the conductor, two red lights come on at the conductors position. One for the front cars of the train & one for the rear cars of the train. After that, the conductor will turn the key left to run which will light up a "small box" (white bulb on 60' cars) which tells the Motorman he can move the train. An interlocking in the controller unlocks allowing the MOTORMAN to take power. In the case cited, the conductors' red indication light would have gone dark in the rear section of the train, simultaneously as the MOTORMANS Indication "box" also went dark. So they make sure both lost "Indication", noting which section the conductor lost his. The conductor investigates which car the problem is in. Hopefully, he will find a red light illuminated in the rear of the trouble car almost up on the roof by the a/c exhaust. Again, hopefully, he will see another red light or a fault light by the trouble door. Hopefully, I explained it clearly......hard to explain.......easier to show!
Is that the same idea inside the LIRR M1 and M3 cars. Those two red lights?
Sounds like Rule 42.e.1 " train must stop if: 1. Both T/O and Cond. lose indication or". He also gave the number of the car that had the problem. Here is a little look at Rule 42, I didn't copy the whole thing just some of the stuff you experienced.
Rule 42:
The TRAIN OPERATOR'S INDICTATION or Automatic Starting Signal is the light in the train operator cab that illuminates when all side doors are closed and locked.
The CONDUCTOR'S INDICATION is the light or lights at the Conductor's operating postion that illuminate when all doors are closed and locked, and when the zone or drum swithes are set correctly.
......
SIGNAL NEEDED TO START TRAIN
(a) A Train Operator must no move the controller handle to start a train carrying passangers until the Train Operator Indication is lit....(buzzer paragraph)
(b) Terminal Failure Rule
(c) Indication Problems: Train removed from Service
(d) If the train Operator Indication Or Conductor's Indication fails to work after the train has left the terminal, the train mustbe stopped. It may continue carrying passangers if:
1. The Conductor has indication although the Train Operator does not. In this case the train operator may move the train wothout the T/O indication being lit, but he/she muyst first recieve two long buzzer signals from the Conductor before starting from each station.
....2 & 3
(e) Door Problems
A train must stop if:
1. Both T/O and Cond. lose indication or
2. The Train starts with a side door open
3. A side door or doroors open wihen the train is moving or
4. A guard light stays lit when doors are closed in staion.
The crew myst try to find and fix the door or doors causing trouble if this can be done....
From what I am reading, it sounds as if you may have the conversation reversed. The Train Operator has one indication circuit but the Conductor has a front and rear zone indication. If the was the conductor's indication, it sounds like car 4291 was in the consist and the #8 door panel was not closing fully or someone tampered with the Free Wheeling Door Switch or the Obstruction Sensing Switch. In any event, since it occurred between stations, I'd suspect vandalism...
Earlier this Sunday, an Amtrak passenger train derailed in Texas. About 7-8 passenger cars jumped off the tracks resulting with a few injuries but no fatalities. I assume that everyone here knows of Amtrak's troubles over the past few years with it's trains jumping the tracks resulting in injuries and also death. Does anyone have any ideas why this is the case with Amtrak but not with other rail lines such as commuter lines and subways. You don't hear every six or seven month's of a subway or commuter rail car(s) jumping the tracks as often as Amtrak.
-GarfieldA
I was going to say 'because Amtrak runs more service on fewer dedicated lines' but most commuter systems are the same way. The real reason, I suppose, is because Amtrak is a hot-button news item. Freight trains derail on a regular basis, many of them on Amtrak routes. But you only hear about the spectacular ones. Death, destruction, major injuries are all 'flag' items on the AP newswire...
-Hank
Here in England derailments only make the news if major disruption( all lines blocked) or serious injury/fatal injury occurs.If a train operator is having a bad time with the press then any incident will be gathered by the"news-hounds" and a story from nothing invented.
Dealing with derailments in my current job, many many small derailments , buffer locking incidents, heavy impacts and yard/depot mishaps occur every week and do not usually get media attention as the scene is usually cleared within a few hours or so.
Amtrak derailments usually show up on English Television News also
usually obtained from Associated Press wires with some video clips.
I think this is so as Amtrak is the Nations passenger carrier, unlike England where the former National system British Rail has been split into 20 or so Train operator companies who use the tracks/stations and signals of a nes national company called RAILTRACK.
One last point a derailment over here is know by staff as "being on the floor" any similar types of names use Stateside??
Regards
Rob :^)
Happy Holidays to all readers of Subtalk
I don't have any data, but it does seem that Amtrak safety is poor relative to the airlines. It seems that there are almost as many major Amtrak derailments in the U.S. as major plane crashes, at a fraction of the volume.
But the typical passenger train accident is not equivalent to a major air disaster, which may leave few if any survivors. There have been, of course, truly devastating rail incidents, most recently this year's German ICE disaster, but the usual passenger train accident is more akin to a hard landing, or run-in with clear-air turbulence, from which most passengers walk away relatively unscathed (until the time comes for litigation -- but that's a different story).
It would be interesting to learn if Amtrak really has a worse safety record per train-mile or passenger-mile than commuter rail. If the answer is yes, I suspect that it would relate mostly to the fact that commuter territory is much more likely to have grade separations.
Also, in describing these as "Amtrak" accidents, we should remember that almost everywhere outside the Corridor track maintenance and dispatching are the responsibility of the contracting freight carriers, not of Amtrak itself.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
I recall seeing data on relative safety by mode several times (can't find it at home, don't remember where). As I recall, buses always come out safest -- safer than rail. I remember this because it makes no sense to me -- a bus shares a road with vehicles driven by us amatuers, while a train is on a dedicated ROW and operated solely by pros.
I think it's because the vehicles driven by "amateurs" tend to be a lot smaller than the bus, and therefore the "amateur" is likely to be more careful when coming in proximity because in a crash, he/she is MUCH more likely to be the fatality!
over on this side of the pond we commonly refer to "going on the ground" for derailments. Amtrak gets an un fair rap for the wrecks they have had lately but if you look carefully it's not really their fault in many of those cases, and besides you can walk or be carried away from most train accidents, can't say that about plane crashes.
Most AMTRAK derailments/incidents are at grade crossings. In most cases the media will report "The train crashed into the truck at the railroad crossing." This implies that the truck had the right of way. Excuse me, but I always thought the train had the right of way! All I know is after not taking a good/go away vacation for 15 years, our family is going to Orlando in August. My older son & I are going AMTRAK, my wife and younger one are flying. I am more concerned for their safety more than that of my big guy & mine!
So what can it be. Who's at fault. Is it debris on the track. The physical condition of the train operator which had an effect on his work. Or is it the condition of the tracks. I would think issues like this would happen with subways in inner cities with all the trash and illegal dumping that's around. But not with Amtrak.
-GarfieldA
Depends on the kind of trash. Paper waste, bottles and the like won't bother a train, but ties and rails or similarly large &/or hard items will probably derail it. Also remember that Amtrak trains run 60-70 mph and decelerate slower than NYC subway trains. Another thing is there a way to automatically stop an Amtrak train if it gets to close to a train in front of it? I'm talking mainly about lines which only have long-distance passenger and freight trains.
Rob, I work for the Metro-North Railroad and if we have a derailment we usually say "the train is on the ground."
I was distracted so much while in my car stopped at Atlantic Ave & Nostrand Ave waiting for the light to change by the extreme brightness of the lights on LIRR train. At that time the train was at the Nostrand Ave station with it's extra bright lights cascading down to the street below. I found the headlamps to be aggravating as I tried my best to shield my eyes until I can drive off. The found the headlamps to be much brighter than the two lamps at the bottom.
-GARFIELDA
I believe that the extra headlamp is now required by Federal law. It
came out of the grade crossing accident outside of Chicago a few years
ago when the school bus got stuck on the tracks. Any trains that go
over grade crossing must be equipped with them. That is why you don't
see them on the NYC subway!
I have some good & bad news:
-The bad, the last 6 RTS SlopeBacks at QSC have seen their last revenue run. 3 alredy went back to Liberty, the remaining 3 probally will go back this week.
-The good, I was told that Liberty plans to keep one of them, probally our number 177, s/n 273. It was in pritty good shape & I understand that Libery is going to restore it, like the TA does. More than that I don't know.
Mr t__:^)
I was walking around in Redhook on Sunday and I have always noticed a lot of exposed rail tracks along these streets. Also noticed the same in Vinigar hill and down between the bridges. I've always been curious about these. Not sure if these ancient tracks once belonged to a trolly line, Perhapse connecting the Ferry, at the foot of the Brooklyn Bridge, or if they had something to do with freight as it is clear that these waterfront areas have a history of docks and
warehouses.
I know that trolly service once ran along Bergan Street in Borum Hill. because I've seen pictures. Also, ancient trolly tracks peek through the streets in varous places in Brooklyn's interior.
Anyone know a good source for the history of trolly service in Brooklyn and New York City???
There are several books: New York Railways, which chronicles Manhattan streetcars operated by that company, most of which were closed by 1936; TARS (possibly) or Third Ave. Railway System, which operated lines in Manhattan until 1949 and the Bronx until 1952.; and , I believe, Brooklyn Trolleys, which chronicles trolley operations in Brooklyn until service ended in 1956.
Try finding these books, maybe a bookstore can order them for you. They are a bit expensive though.
BROOKLYN- 'Brooklyn Trolleys' by James C. Greller & Edward B. Watson, published by NJ International (1986) ISBN 0-934088-17-9 (might be out of print).
MANHATTAN - 'Third Avenue Railway System in Manhattan', published by NJ International (1996) ISBN 0-934088-34-9.
'Third Avenue Railways' - The Green Line, published by NJ International (1994) ISBN 0-934088-30-6.
'Across New York by Trolley' by Frederick A. Kramer, published by Quadrant Press (1975) ISBN 0-915276-13-5 (most likely out of print).
Chris> You might wish to contact the Electric Railroaders Assoc.,New York Division. They publish a monthly magazine called the Bulletin and back in the 1970's they did a very detailed history of all the Brooklyn Trolley Lines.
Redbird
An excellent source is Stan Fischler's recent, superb memoir entitled Confessons of a Trolley Dodger From Brooklyn. He covers all of the major Brooklyn trolley routes of the 1940's, complete with route and equipment descriptions.
Some of my thunder was stolen in recent posts, but here goes....
1.Four lines run on me. I have but four express stations and run all locals. I have received more "connections" to me somehow than any other line in the past 25 years. I live with the Costanzas. What line am I?
2. I'm an express but I like to do some local work on the weekends. I took Elaine to a lesbian wedding. Who am I?
3. I run in 3 boroughs but only stop in two. Who am I?
4. I can get you to only 3 consecutive squares but take a wrong turn at the canal. Who am I?
5. 200-207(A), BFB to Woodlawn(4), 137 to 145(1/9). What do we have in common?
6. I have 3 bi-level stations out of 6 on one of my most important routes. Only two are express stations. Who am I?
7. Name three places you regularly see A-Division and B-Divison lines?
8. I am IRT yet never get the "raspberry". Who am I?
Some of these are trick, some require TV time, some require a map and a knowledge of the subway and some require a knowledge of outdated slang. This is my Christmas present to my fellow buffs, so don't break it. You won't get another until New Years.
1) I think of Broadway, but there are only 3 lines (including the shuttle) that run on it now (but the D and E have come over during weekend reroutes), and there are 4 exp stations if you don't count the unused Canal St.
3) The L is kind of like this (bumping into Queens), but on the neighborhood map, most of the Halsey St station is on the Queens side (I'm not sure about the entrance though), so I'm not sure if that counts.
4) The Broadway express tracks?
5) There are yards or yard leads in between them
8) both the 3 and 7 never go to the Bronx
Eric already got a bunch, but here are some more:
1. Queens Boulevard main line: E 8 Av Local, F 6 Av Local, G Crosstown Local, and R Bwy Local; express stations at Queens Plz, Roosevelt Av, Forest Hills, and Union Tpk; recent connections to 60th St. Tunnel, Archer Av Ext, and (shortly) 63rd St. Tunnel. Costanza lives someplace in Queens.
4. N train stops at 42 St-Times Square, 34-Herald Square, and 23-Madison Square (although the 28th St stop keeps them from being consecutive), and doesn't go onto the bridge tracks at Canal.
6. Lex Av - Penn Station on the E is a busy six-stop run at all times, and 5 Av, 7 Av, and 50 St. are all bi-level; 50 St. is local only.
And the answers are......
1. The Queens Blvd. line(E,F,G,R). All four are locals and the line has four express stations-Queens Plaza, Roosevelt Ave., 71st Ave and Jamaica-Briarwood. The Costanzas lived on Queens Blvd.
2. The #4 is a weekday express and runs local along the Lexington and Brooklyn IRT's on the weekend.
3. The 'L' makes a short jaunt into Queens but has no stops there. It of course also runs in Manhattan and Brooklyn.
4. The Broadway express tracks stop at: Times Square, Herald Square and Union Square and then make the turn at CANAL St.
5. As well as yard leads, these areas have a different number of tracks than the stations I mentioned on either side of them.
6. The 8th Ave. IND: W 4(express, bi-level), 14(express), 23(local), 34(express), 42(express, bi-level) and 50(local, bi-level).
7. That was a trick question! You may have interpreted it as "where can you see A-Division and B-Division cars TOGETHER". You can see them at any station an A or B division line serve, but not next to each other.
8. The IRT that never gets the "raspberry" or "Bronx salute" are the 3 and 7.
Jamaica-Briarwood? Did they finally change the name of Van Wyck Blvd Station?
I meant to say Union Turnpike. And yes they did change the station name on the map.
To anyone who knows these stations, which would you say is the highest
Tioga or Allegheny on the MFL?
(Now I can be e-mailed since I finally got this darn thing working[except the spacebar!!!!!!!!!]).
Of the two, my guess would be Tioga, given its closeness to the Amtrak overpass just a couple of blocks to the north.
If you're talking about the entire Frankford El, I think Somerset is the highest of the bunch (right after the twin bridges crossing the ex-Reading).
For anyone with an interest in Chicago rapid transit, let me put in a plug for History of the Chicago "L," at http://nsn.nslsilus.org/graham/transit/CTA/history/. As the name implies, site emphasizes history, but there is also a section of recent news articles.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Where did you find this? I live near Chicago and am always searching for more information on the CTA!
The only other site I knew was the CTA Transit Enthusiasts page linked via the cta's web site tranfers section.
Thanks for the link
BJ
I think I first heard of it through one of Aaron Renn's "The Weekly Breakdown" postings on the chi.general newsgroup a couple of months ago. (By the way, if you're not familiar with TWB, it's worth looking up -- the tone, as the name implies, is frequently negative, but it's a good source for current news and anecdotes on the CTA and, to a lesser extent, other Chicago transit operators.)
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
It is a great site, especially for those of us who grew up in the
Windy City! I think I found out about it on this website!
If anyone on this board knows anything about a high school summer internship program with the MTA, MTA: MNCR, or MTA:LIRR PLEASE send me an e-mail.
thanks in advance
Dear Sub-talkers:Since we've been keping in the Holiday Spirit with our short quizzes,here's my contribution.Hope you enjoy it.
1)How many Metro-North Railroad stops are there in Manhattan?
2)Name three abandoned PATH(or H&M)stations even if they don't exist anymore.
3)Name three bridges that the IRT uses or used to reach Manhattan.
4)How many Bluebird Compartment Type cars were there.
5)What was the "Broadway Battleship."
1. Three: Grand Central, 125th Street and Marble-Hill.
2. 19th Street, 28th Street, Manhattan Transfer. Also the old Hudson Terminal counts - it's a vault now.
3. Broadway Bridge at 225th Street; 9th Avenue line bridge to former Sedgwick Ave/Jerome-Anderson stations and on to the Jerome Ave. line
and the bridge used by the former 2nd Ave/3rd Ave Els.
4. 25 - 8001A,A1,B,B1,C, and four other multisectional units. 8002-8005. (8000 was the Green Hornet?)
5. It was a huge Double-decked Trolley Car, #6000. It also had an extra-wide side door.
Wayne
1)How many Metro-North Railroad stops are there in Manhattan?
Technically, three. GCT and 125th St. are on Manhattan Island and in the Borough of Manhattan. Marble Hill is not on Manhattan Island, but it is in the Borough of Manhattan. It's site was part of Manhattan Island before the Harlem River was rerouted early in this century.
2)Name three abandoned PATH(or H&M)stations even if they don't exist anymore.
19th and 28th Streets on 6th Ave., and Hudson Terminal.
Also Manhattan Transfer and the original H&M Newark station in NJ.
3)Name three bridges that the IRT uses or used to reach Manhattan.
Broadway Bridge (still in use by 1/9).
Queensboro Bridge (use by 2nd Ave. el.)
Third Ave. el bridge over Harlem River (not the same as vehicular Third Ave. Bridge).
Also 9th Ave. el Bridge (originally used by Putnam Div. of NY Central (or its predecessor)).
4)How many Bluebird Compartment Type cars were there.
There were five BMT "Bluebird" cars.
5)What was the "Broadway Battleship."
??? A BMT Standard?
I always wondered two things about the Manhattan Transfer:
1. Where was it exactly located?
2. Is that the same Manhattan Transfer the doo-wop/soul/r&b group names themselves after?
Bootsy; I believe Manhattan Transfer was located approx at the site of the present Hudson Tower,maybe a little further west.
Regards,Redbird.
<< Is that the same Manhattan Transfer the doo-wop/soul/r&b group names themselves after? >>
Yep. I saw them a few years ago in St. Louis, MO and asked that question.
The Broadway Battleship was a streetcar with what appeared to be huge, protruding bumpers. There is a photo of such a streetcar in Under the Sidewalks of New York, taken when the Dual Contracts lines in the Times Square area were under construction.
BMT standards was a good try, though. They were certainly built like battleships, weren't they? The same can be said for all New York subway cars. Of course, if the standards could be likened to battleships, then the Triplex units could be thought of as aircraft carriers.
1. Three (Grand Central, 125th St and Marble Hill). There are other abandoned stations once used by the New York Central.
2. 28th St, 19th St and the original Hudson Terminal. The station at 33rd St. was also moved south from its original location.
3. Broadway Bridge (carries 1 & 9 today), railroad bridge connecting 8 Av. at 159th St. to the Bronx (carried 9th Av. El), and the bridge to the Bronx from the end of 2nd Av. (carried 2nd Av. and 3rd Av. Els)
Also (come to think of it), the Queensborough Bridge once carried the 2nd Av. El.
4. Ten(?)
5. No' a clue!
Happy holidays!
Bob Sklar
Bob for answers see Dec 21 2317 and 23:19 postings. I know that the 9 Av El Bridge was called the Putnam Bridge but I don't know if the 3 Av El Bridge had an official name. I believe it made landfall on Alexander Av in the Bronx and then crossed over to 3 AV.
Best Wishes for the Holiday,Redbird
Information from a bit of memory but mostly from Gene Sansone's "Evolution of New York City Subways: . . . Transit Cars."
To clear up the BMT Compartment Car ('Bluebird') confusion, there were six units, each made up of three car bodies, with the bodies labeled A, B, A-1. The first unit was built in 1938, and I think would not train with any of the others. The others were from 1940, and the rest of the order was canceled by Mayor Laguardia according to conventional wisdom. They were numbered 8000 A, B, A-1 through 8005 A, B, A-1.
For stopping purposes, they were counted the same as D-Types--three car bodies = two cars, so if three of the units were operating, they would stop at the '6' markers at stations.
The Green Hornet was number 7003 (renumbered from a curious 7000A, 8000B, 9000C, 8001B, and 7001A, according to Sansone). Like the Multi-Sections, that had five car bodies riding on six trucks. The Zephyr was another experimental multi-section with five bodies, numbered 7029.
I've never heard of counting 'bodies' as 'cars' when talking about articulated units. No one ever thought of a Brighton or Sea Beach with four Triplexes as having 12 cars--they had the equivalent of 8 cars, which is where they would stop--some stations had a special "8" marker for the Triplexes since they did not space out exactly the same as BMT Standards.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Ed. This is most interesting. I did not know about the stop markers. I know that a D Types being 137 ft long was roughly the eqiuvalent of two A/B's. The Multi's being 179 ft could run with three units again roughly equaling 8 A/B's. All five Bluebirds together could make a train of 400 ft. The Green Hornet and Zephyr of course always ran alone.
Regards,Redbird.
Ed> A little more info. I don't believe that the Green Hornet,Zephyr or Bluebird 8000 ever had MU couplers,only non-electrical ones for towing if necessary. It was planned to make the Green Hornet and Zephyr compatible with the Multis which is probably why thet were renumbered to the top and bottom respectively of the Multi series.
(7003 GH,7004-7028 Multis,7029 Zephyr)However the war interviened and this never happened. Indeed the Green Hornet was sent off to help
the war effort because of her aluminum construction. It was also planned to get new couplers for Bluebird 8000, but then again the war stopped that.
Regards,Redbird
Redbird--
I believe you're right on the both the Multis and the coupler of the first Clark car. I've sometimes wondered what the BMT would have looked like if 500 or so Compartment cars had been built--they probably wouldn't have been scrapped until 1975 or 1980. We could then speculate about what IND or IRT Post-War cars would have looked like with all those Bluebirds flying around to be compared with.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Think of the wear and tear on track that could have been saved with a lightweight design like that! It seems the powers that be placed firm trust in heavyweight equipment, figuring that it would stand up better to the heavy volume of passengers. That's why New York subway cars have always been overbuilt.
Hey guys, I'm from Southern California. This web site is great!!
Back in the late 1950's when I was a teenager, I rode the IRT Woodlawn Express (#4 Line). When we were in the vicinity of Yankee Stadium, I remember seeing the trackways that led to the 9th Avenue El. There also seemed to be a tunnel portal west of the line. Was that tunnel used for rapid transit?
Quiz Question: By 1900, New York, Chicago and Boston had constructed elevated railways for rapid transit. What other city also had rapid transit trains running on an elevated structure? (Hint: This city is not on the East Coast).
Hey guys, I'm from Southern California. This web site is great!!
Back in the late 1950's when I was a teenager, I rode the IRT Woodlawn Express (#4 Line). When we were in the vicinity of Yankee Stadium, I remember seeing the trackways that led to the 9th Avenue El. There also seemed to be a tunnel portal west of the line. Was that tunnel used for rapid transit?
Quiz Question: By 1900, New York, Chicago and Boston had constructed elevated railways for rapid transit. What other city also had rapid transit trains running on an elevated structure? (Hint: This city is not on the East Coast).
The line that you speak of opened in 1918.It connected the 9 AV El at 155 St with the Jerome Av El at 167 St. The line crossed the Harlem River on the Putnam Bridge of the New York & Northern Railroad which was leased to the IRT.It was necessary to tunnel through a high ridge
in the Bronx,hence the short(three or four block)tunnel. There were stations at both ends of the tunnel,Sedgewick Av on the west side and Jerome-Anderson Av on the east side. Portions of both platforms were still intact and recognizable at least 10 years ago and I don't believe that has changed. The tunnel is still intact though sealed.
Regards,Redbird
I recall the shuttle from the 1950s. It operated as 2 car trains of old IRT cars (Low-Vs? - could have been Hi-Vs for all I knew at the time).
Up until the mid-1950s, it used both tracks and the trains relayed north of 167th (I believe that the crossovers are still there). For the last couple of years of operation, only the southbound track was used, with a single train running back and forth on the single track (sneaking in between southbound Woodlawn trains at 167th).
Ed I recall in dim memory seeing these trains cross the Harlem River. I am also told that I rode it once to go to some function at the Polo Ground but I was a little young to remember it. The Composites did run here until 1950 when the Hi-V's took over and they lasted until 1953 when the Steinways showed up. I believe they closed out the service.I visted both surviving platforms when I was on jury duty in the Bronx and was surprised how much was still intact and seemingly forgotten.
Regards,Redbird
Speaking of the Polo Grounds, it's too bad that the shuttle didn't survive until the Mets played their first two seasons there in 1962 and 1963.
Maybe you were going to see the Giants before they moved to San Francisco. The Mets used the Polo Grounds in 1962 and 1963, but by then the shuttle was no longer in service.
The football Giants moved to Yankee Stadium in 1956.
Steve.I have always found this line to be one of the most intersting.The El actually went subway, as oppossed to the subways running on el structures.There seems to be very little info in print about it and the bridge over the Harlem River.I understand that there was a plan at one time to extend the Lenox Av Line accross the bridge to connect with the Jerome Av Line. The reason I have heard that this wasn't done was because the subway 3rd rail shoes would not clear the tunnel. I know the subway cars assigned to the shuttle had modified shoes but I don't think it would have been that hard to make some cuts in the tunnel wall to accomadate the subway cars.
Regards,Redbird.
You can still see Sedgwick Avenue, but Jerome-Anderson is another matter. No way you can see it without a little trespassing - it's too overgrown with vegetation to be seen from a distance.
I would have to say San Francisco but then I think you might be referring to the Key System.
Kansas City is the only other regarded as having an elevated rapid transit railway. Although this system and one built in Des Moines? Iowa was built for trolley car use.
Kansas City is the correct answer. Before the structure was used by streetcars, steam-driven trains used the structure. Point your browser to "8th Street Tunnel" for more info.
Would you be thinking of Sioux City, Iowa? Incredible as it sounds, the Sioux City Rapid Transit Co. operated a 1.125 mile elevated railway beginning in April 1891--initially steam-powered, and electrified by the mid-Nineties. After merger with the local surface system, it was abandoned some time between 1901 and 1903. See CERA Bulletin 114, _Iowa Trolleys_, pp. 147-8, for the skimpy details.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Actually, I was not aware of the Sioux City service that you described. Kansas City (really both Kansas Cities) was the system that I was thinking about. Point your browser to "8th Street Tunnel" for more info.
You guys know your rail transit,since I'm answering several people
I'll list the answers here.
1)MNRR Stations in Manhattan. GCT,125 ST and Marble Hill
2)Abandoned PATH Stations;here's what I have:original 33 St(destroyed when 6AV subway built),28 St,19 St, Hudson Terminal,Manhattan Transfer,Park Place-Newark and the Harrison Sta on the line to Park Place.
3)4 IRT Bridges to Man.:Broadway Bridge(1/9),Putnam Bridge (9AV El)
3 Av El Bridge and the Queensboro Bridge(2 Av El)
5)The "Broadway Battleship" was New York Railways car #6000, the only double deck trolley ever to run in NYC.
See next post for Bluebirds.Redbird.
There were a total of six Bluebirds built.#8000 a,b,a1 built in 1938 for the BMT (last car delivered to them).Five more 8001-8005 a,b,a1 built in 1940 for the New York City Board of Transportation.The first unit always operated alone as it did not have MU couplers. It ran as an extra train behind a regular run because it capacity was limited(84 feet long with all three sections. This unit was sidelined about the time the others were delivered and plans were made to have couplers made however WWII intervened and this never happened.
Wayne:When the Green Hornet was delivered in 1934 it was numbered 7000-8000-9000-8001-7001 renumbered in 1936 to 7003 a,b,c,b1,a1.
The Zephyr was numbered 7002-8002-9001-8003-7003 when it was delivered in 1934 renumbered 7029 a,b,c,b1,a1 in 1936.
Redbird
The Bluebirds fell victim to Mayor LaGuardia's anti-el attitude. He didn't like the idea of els in the first place, and wanted them dismantled. 50 Bluebirds were ordered; Clark had just begun building the first five units when the order was cancelled. Those first five units were completed and delivered, but that was it.
Steve. There was a total of six Bluebirds though. The first was #8000
which was delivered to the BMT for testing in 1938.In 1939 as you know the BMT was unified into the subway system. The Clark Equiptment Company had already begun work on the next five units and I believe there was some legal obligation the City had to meet when they took over the assets of the BMT. This led to the next five units being delivered in 1940.#8001-8005. This is the group that you almost always see pictures of. #8000 never ran with her sisters. I never saw them but I understand that they were some of the nicest looking rapid transit cars ever built.Does anyone have a personal recollection of these units?
Regards,Redbird.
Whats up fellow buffs, this is my first time posting on this message board. I have three questions.
1--I know there used to be a connetion from the LIRR Bay Ridge Branch to the L train i think it was? Is this connection still open??
2--Is every line on the subway linked? Meaning, can a train go from the F line to the 2 Line?
3--I work for the New York Cross Harbor Railroad and today at work we were sending 11 subway cars to scrap at Naporano in NJ. They were red, like you see on the 7 line, one car number was 8493, what model designation are these and are these the ones used on the 7 line?
Thank you for your help, and please forgive my ignorance.
Jay
Hello Jay,
Welcome!
1. The BR Branch had a connection to the Canarsie line directly when
LIRR ran the LIRR freight operations (as you know, NYA is now
the lessee). It is still connected indirectly via the Linden Shop
yard trackage which links up to the BMT Csnarsie and IRT New Lots
lines there.
2. Subway trackage is very intertwined, but there are points of
isolation, such as the isolation of the Eastern Div BMT from the
Southern Div, such as right now with the Williamsburgh Bridge
being out of service to trains. The above old connections actually
provide a (LONG) workaround.
3. These R-33 Redbirds are the last of the SMEE cars of the previous
generation.
What do you do at NYCH?
I would appreciate hearing about:
1. NYCH trackage/operational changes.
2. Do you have any info/maps of
trackage, especially the BR yard between 5-8th Avenues on 65th St?
3. What freight traffic are you interchanging with -
a. NYC Transit
b. NYA (LIRR - Bay Ridge)
4. Is the trackage of the NYCTA *WITHIN* the 2nd-1st Ave/38th St. yard
being used (besides the need to turn there onto the southbound
2nd Ave street trackage?
Thanks (in advance) for your help as well!
Regards,
Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto
I have a question for Jay Jay. How many cars can you carry at once, and how long does it take you to get rail cars across the harbor? Bear in mind that they are considering a very expensive freight tunnel, in which trains would emerge at 15th Ave (due to the grade) and then be pulled backward to the waterfront (What about the Buckeye gas pipe?). How much time is saved, and how much capactiy is added.
I know they have 4 three track barges but don't know how long they are. I've also seen the video about them, and sometimes when I'm on the Staten Island Ferry I see the car floats.
Try their web page www.nyrr.com
The WillyB is not closed yet. That will happen in May. For a newcomer to this hobby, the IRT cars have 3 side doors, BMT/IND cars have 4. 8493 is an R30. Wish JayJay can provide us with a complete listing of the 11 cars.
Ok, here i go, i have a bunch of questions to answer, first on the NYCH, i am a brakeman, i do conductor work, i am not qualifed to load the floats alone though, and i had just about finished qualifing for engineer, but they denied me, which i dont blame them, because i am leaving to go work for Conrail. With these subway cars, i know they are coming, but no exact dates, with these 11 we just handled, they were in the yard at 39 st and 2nd ave for a month or two having asbestos removed. Next time i am at work, ill ask my friend if he has the car number, i would have taken them, but the cars were very beat down with grafitti. As for capacity on a float, it depends, on car lengths, and which float we are using, we have 4 floats, 2 of one size and 2 of the other, we used one of the smaller ones yesterday with the subway cars, and the 11 cars we fit on were as many as we could have put on. If it was the bigger float, we pobably could have fit another 3-5 cars. As for operationl changes on the NYCH, recently we have not been working much becasue of a decline in business which will be over soon, the bosses have been signing alot of new agreements. On the Brooklyn side, Alco S4 is used, we recently repainted it black with yellow on the walkway sill and on the cuting lever and the such. On the NJ side, a EMD SW1200RS is being used, in the shops in Brooklyn, Alco S1 is backup. Over at 65 st there is our interchange yard, and then the big yard next to the water, the interchange yard extends from 4th ave to about 8th ave, and consits of 3 tracks. The two closest to the subway is where we dropo the cars, flip a derail and put on a skate, the outside track near 65 st is the runaround. The yard next to the water is unused, it is owned by the city and the NYCH is hoping to get it, there are two nes electric float bridges being built there next to the sewage treatment plant as i type this. With the NYCTA, we give them, new cars, and gondolas of rail and 3rd rail, we have a gondola right now in NJ for them with 3rd rail. We get from them, scrap, like the 11 redcars, and we took about maybe 15 of the flats that are on the worktrains. With the NYA, we get alot of scrap from them in gondolas, and we give them, actually not much, a boxcar here and there and occasionally a tankcar with corn syrup. Also sometimes stuff for the LIRR, like a couple of months ago we handled there new bilevels, that was pretty neat. Finally, the tracks in the yard at 39 st
Hey, Jayjay, you're "the man". Thanks for all that great info on NYCHRR operations.
Well, now I know for sure that those 11 subway cars you picked up are the ones I photographed last month in that small yard across from the new Costco outlet. I haven't gotten the roll developed yet, but recall some of those cars were the yellow "MOT" ones that had seen better days.
BTW, so far as I know, that yard is owned/operated by the TA's freight division, South Brooklyn Railway Co. I assume that your train crew went up 2nd Ave. from Bush Terminal and entered the gate there? Or did your crew first do an interchange of the 11 cars with South Brooklyn at Bush Terminal and then you guys loaded them on the floats? At this point I'm not even sure when/if the SBK is still functioning as it used to. (That freight line used to be affiliated with the Davidson Pipe Co. on 2nd Ave.) Can you help me out with these inquiries?
Anyhow, much appreciated your previous messages. Keep 'em coming.
cya, Doug
P.S. To Benzion -- drop me a note when you can.
Whoops, forgot this part.
The yard at 39 st, we go there to interchange with the NYCTA, but also we go there with boxcars to a a warehose behine that yard, we go straight thru it and come out in this big like, lot next to these warhouses where the boxcars are loaded with coco beans.
If anyone else has any questions about the NYCH feel free to ask, becuase i think i will have alot about the NYCTA.
Jay
He is referring to the loading dock area near the last few buildings near the water. I have seen(smelled) some undetermined waste products loaded there for disposal. (Do you know what those are JayJay?).
BTW, this is near/at the old 39th St. Ferry terminal -- does anyone know more particulars on it - I haven't seen any trace of it...
[BTW Doug, I'll get back to you soon -- sorry for the delays -- want to answer in detail...]
8493 is one of the R-27/R-30 series cars, recently retired.
Do you get advanced word of subway cars coming for scrap? (You'll be getting a whole slew of them in the next few years :)
--Mark
Jay If the car was 8493 it was an R-30 that had undergone General Overhaul (GOH) in the mid 80's.Originally there was a total of 550 cars in groups R-27/R-30/R-30A all of which were virtually identical. A total of 162 were rebuilt and painted in the Fox Red paint scheme that you saw on the Flushing Line. However these cars were 60 foot long and 10 foot wide and only ran on the lettered routes(BMT and IND.The numbered routes are former IRT lines and their equiptment is about 51 feet long and 9 feet wide.Hope this helps.
Regards,Redbird.
8493 did not undergo overhaul in the mid 80's. The cars which did were the GE R30's: 8250-8411. The 8493 was a Westinghose car which ended her life with some yellow "boxes" painted on her side. This paint designated use as a "horse" in the pool of cars for the refuse collector. She was not needed anymore when the R134 cars were delivered to 207 St.
Bill. You are right. What threw me off was when he said it had a red paint scheme.
While we're on the subject of R-30s, does anyone know for sure if some of them weren't used in Money Train? Granted, it wasn't one of the better movies around, but the Redbirds in it looked legit. I'm sure nobody cared that one car got totally wasted by that R-21 masquerading as the money Train, since they were retired anyway.
[While we're on the subject of R-30s, does anyone know for sure if some of them weren't used in Money Train? Granted, it wasn't one of the better movies around, but the Redbirds in it looked legit. I'm sure nobody cared that one car got totally wasted by that R-21 masquerading as the money Train, since they were retired anyway.]
I believe those were R-30s in _Money Train_. All of the cars had been purchased from a scrap dealer, with the subway scenes filmed in a mock-up tunnel in Los Angeles.
Boy, was that movie a stinker ... granted, it wasn't in the same Hall of Shame as _Exit to Eden_ or _Showgirls_, but close.
Hey, Jayjay. I almost forgot about your first question re: connection between LIRR and subway lines.
Yes, there used to be a connection between the Bay Ridge Line and the Canarsie "L" line just past the TA Linden Shop above Linden Blvd. The remnants of the switch trackage looks to have been recently removed (less than 10 yrs.). This is something that I also recently photographed. It when from the westbound BR track to the southbound "L" train track just outside of the New Lots Ave. station on that line.
The replacement for that switch-over is the relatively new el structure that runs from the Linden shops (as Benzion mentioned) and forks into a "y" set-up where one arm goes to the IRT New Lots line, and the second converges with the Canarsie "L" just before the Livonia station. That's one of the main ways in which cars/equipment can be easily moved between divisions or sent over to the waterfront for removal and/or retrofitting. Hope that helps your inquiries.
My final question : As far as I can tell there are two active customers of the NYCH along the Bay Ridge line. One is a plastics manufacturer on Utica Ave. and the other is a scrap metal yard that runs parallel to the Canarise line near Pitkin Ave. Is this accurate?
Again thanks for your assistance.
Doug
I'll like to know about the Steam Engine you have in the barn. is that the same steam Engine that was park at kent ave for many years. If so I know who has the Bell that was missing. It looks like you guys are rebuilding it. Are you rebuilding to work?
(Jr: Want to be a motorman) :-)
Some time ago - I recall reading a post(s) that stated that NYC DOT buses are not permitted to do charters. Is this a rule that was introduced in the last few years??? The reason I ask is because I remember when Jamaica Buses used to do charter often. Until the 1980's their buses displayed the ICC-MC XXXXXX number on their sides.
Also - Liberty Lines also used to do charter work. Liberty used to have MC-8 and MC-9 coaches that were used on charters. They were used in regular line service too, but the MC-8's rarely saw line service during their last days at Liberty. It was sometime around the mid-1980's when MCI coaches at Liberty dissappeared. My understanding is that Liberty had a class A charter license which permits them to operate in 48 states, Canada and Alaska.
I don't know why charters are not permitted anymore. Maybe because NYC buys them the buses, charters will cause more mileage/more wear & tear, and NYC wouldn't get a piece of the charter fee. Interesting note: some of those 1969 Flxibles, which had a different more powerful engine than the TA ones, survive today. They have their original low 200 series numbers, but are owned by a different company. They are found shuttling horse racing fans from the parking lots to the entrance gates at Aqueduct & Belmont Race Tracks.
I neglected to mention those 1969 Flxibles were originally from Jamaica Bus.
Yes, I remember those Flxibles. I've also noticed them at Belmont also. In fact it was usually (203,212 quite often) these buses that I saw doing charters at Jamaica Buses. I also heard that they had (have) an overdrive gear also and were very fast. It would make since that NYC-DOT would not permit these buses to do charter work, but does that mean that older equipment at the privates were not purchased with NYC funds???
I'm fairly certain of this: those buses were purchsed by Jamaica bus. I think the city only started purchasing buses for the privates around the time when the RTS came out.
[I don't know why charters are not permitted anymore. Maybe because NYC buys them the buses, charters will cause more mileage/more wear & tear, and NYC wouldn't get a piece of the charter fee.]
It also may be an issue of fairness. Because they have city-supplied equipment and receive subsidies, the DOT lines (Triboro Coach, Green Buses, etc.) could charge less than truly private lines. That could be seen as an unfair advantage. It's the same principle behind the laws in most states that prohibit prison-made products from being sold in the open market.
It's not a NYC-DOT rule that forbids charters, it an UMTA rule - it was initated by the private charter industry, who felt that a public transit authority that gets buses with Fed $ from "unfairly" competing with them, who have to pay for the bus with their own money.
The voice of doom sounds again. Here is my response. People should just break the law, and force people to sue, and then lie and cheat. With a few exceptions (ie. murder) the law is a fraud and should be treated as such.
I have reached this conclusion after many years in government. For a politician, the best way to get money is to sell out the general public for a special interest by passing a regulation. That's a sure winner. But enforcing such a rule is a loser. So there are all types of rules which are not enforced, hundreds of thousands, not of them legitimate. But as long as the special interests are around, and getting some profit from them, they cannot be changed.
Look at the NYC zoning resolution. Would any politician dare to shut down the 15,000 or so NYC businesses with no quality of life impacts which violate the zoning because they are on the wrong block or side of the street (vision of 1961 -- let put all of these types of stores here, all the repair shops there, etc)? No, no one would dare enforce these rules. But would the City Council ever approve of getting rid of these stupid rules. No way! Then (God Help Us) a Black person might feel free to open a business, perhaps even a COMPETING business.
Lobbying to get rid of this stupid rule will not work. Not unless you are prepared to pay millions in contributions -- several times, if they think they can get more out of you. But lets say the MTA suddenly announced, with big fanfare, NEW SPECIAL SERVICE! During off-peak hours, get together 35 people and pay in advance, and we'll send a bus to take you ANYWHERE IN THE CITY at a particular time point to point! Christmas shopping in the Manhattan for your Church Group (the charter could go one way -- home with the packages)! The outing to Shea Stadium for your company! Etc.
So the private bus companies sue. Then you lanuch a press campaign blasting them and the politicians, enticing a few self-promoters to pick up the cry (WE PAID FOR THE BUS, AND WE WANT TO USE IT)! Then you settle -- the MTA will set up the toll free number, but give the customer a choice of operators including he privates bus companies as part of the program. It's still illegal, but you keep doing it.
Would I like to have a simple set of fair rules that apply equally to everyone? Sure, but its not available. In the lawyerocracy, the only reason to follow the law is if you can't afford a decent attorney. The lawywers have set it up that way.
I think you have hit the nail on the head. It is very unfortunate that things have come to that in this country, but they have.
Probably the worst thing about having so many "laws" that are not worthy of respect is that it undermines respect even for those laws that are worthy of it.
The only reasonable thing to do, as I see it, is to internalize a "simple set of fair rules that apply equally to everyone" and to live your life by those rules at all times. Hopefully, by doing so you will also be setting an example for others on the benefits of living this way. And perhaps one day in the future (we can always hope) the nation will "officially" return to such a standard.
Some may think there would be disagreement as to just what such rules entail, but I think in general there is very little such disagreement.
Basically, it all boils down to the principle of non-aggression or "non-initiation of force." Or as a great thinker put it many years ago, "Do not do unto others what you would not have them do unto you."
Well I guess that rule can't be too old, because in the mid 1980's I rode Academy's MC-9A #PA6698 on a Six Flags-Great Adventure charter. Also, I know that NJ Transit buses did quite a few charters also - They used to be a common sight at the Bronx Zoo parking lot along with Jamaica Buses also.
Maybe they just broke the rule and no one stopped them. Maybe the TA should do the same. Heck, I'd rent a bus just for the hell of it. We throw a big bar-be-que party for our friends at our house every October. One year I'd rent a couple of buses and travel around Brooklyn just to do it if the price were right. The TA could really add to the quality of life by offering charter service at cost in the off peak hour -- with three prices for one way ($60?), two way ($120?), and drive around for a few hours ($200?) and direct special buses right from neighborhood main streets to gatherings and events.
As per the MTA website for AM rush hour:
N from Coney Island to 57th St, Midtown: 1:04
F from Coney Island to Rock Center: :56
D from Coney Island to Rock Center: :56
B from Coney Island to 34th St. :50
R from 95th St to 42nd St: :50
I think 40 mintues is about as much as a human being should be subjected to. That leaves 20 minutes for the walk to the train, the walk from the train, and a change of trains, and gets you in in less than an hour. BTW you can get from Broadway-East New York to Broadway Nassau on the A faster than you can get from Pacific to City Hall on the N/R. Anyone here able to run two miles in less than 17 minutes? You could get off, run over the Brooklyn Bridge, and beat your train to City Hall.
[As per the MTA website for AM rush hour:
N from Coney Island to 57th St, Midtown: 1:04
F from Coney Island to Rock Center: :56
D from Coney Island to Rock Center: :56
B from Coney Island to 34th St. :50
R from 95th St to 42nd St: :50]
I'd say the R is probably the most boring of these. At least the others are partly above ground. Not much to see from the R :-)
Given the fact that the D runs local in Brooklyn, it takes as long to go from Rockefeller Center to Coney Island on it now as it did when we took it on April 30, 1967. We had just moved to Jersey, and were visiting the city for the first time. Back then, the D still ran on the Culver line, making all stops. I remember just wanting to ride the subway, and my father suggested going all the way to Coney Island, and so we did. Man, was I excited! It took just under an hour, and was anything but boring to me. It must have been the R-1/9s with their moaning and groaning that got to me. We ended up going back to Manhattan on the BMT, probably on an N of R-32s at first, then for some reason changed to an RR once we reached 4th Ave. As we waited for our train to leave Coney Island, I kept wondering if its doors were blue on the outside; there was an identical train sitting next to ours (either a QB or TT of R-32s) whose doors were blue. After changing to the RR, I watched the train we had been on as it pulled out, and sure enough, its doors were blue. (Duh!)
What can I say? I still miss those blue doors on the R-32s...
The elevated portions on the F are the most fun to ride, otherwise the subway looks like the subway. Do operators that run total subway routes get more depressed than operators who get above ground once in a while? At least driving bus you can see what the weather is doing. You may not like it, but at least you can see it.
For flight crews it must be nice, because even on rainy days, they spend a part of the day above the clouds in the sunshine.
I disagree. Even though the N is open cut to 59th St from Stillwell, there still isn't much to see. The N wins hands down.
--Mark
If one of every type of car in service in NYC today(except the R-110's) were to race down a 1-mile straight-away which train would win? I know it is silly, but it's been on my mind.
Interesting question.
If we don't include cars that have been retired, I'd have to guess the R-32s or the slant R-40s.
If we DO include retired cars, I'd have to guess that it would be a tie between the R-10s, the Triplexes and the R-17.
--Mark
Don't forget the multisectionals. They could probably beat any other car off the line. On a one-mile stretch, acceleration rate would be a major factor. Postwar equipment would have the edge here. The R-10s could accelerate as much as 60% faster than their prewar counterparts; the same could be said about the R-17s vs the Hi-Vs and Lo-Vs.
Conrail will soon be history....Does Anyone know if Norfolk Southern Or CSX will handle the freight work in NYC, LI, and Downstate NY, Or will it be divided between the two of them? It seems that they have been dividing up the areas of the country Conrail services instead of sharing the work in each area.
Long Island will continue to be served by the New York and Atlantic Railway. Conrails Hudson Line and River Line, coming down from Albany, NY will both be owned by CSX. In North NJ, CSX and NS will both operate up to a certain area where they will hand there trains over to a new terminal railroad, which is the Shared assets, (SAA, CSAO, Baby conrail), this RR will be owned by NS and CSX, it will perform all switching and servicing of customers in the North NJ area. The locomotives are supposed to stay painted for Conrail, so Conrail blue and the name will actually live on, for a little while at least, i think that as soon as they figure out how to properly carve up the area, they will proced to do so.
Jay
Calling on all Metrocard transfer privilege mavens: I would like to know exactly which station combos are ok for walk transferring between the 4,5,6,N,R, and the Queensbridge 63st Shuttle at Lex.63.For instance, may one code in at Roosevelt Island and re-code at 51Lex.?Also, are the only code-ins on the "S" at Queensbride and/or R.I.? Or, can one code in at, say, 57-7th and re-code@63-Lex.?You may direct your responses to Gerryjay@yahoo.com , as well as the message board. Thank you. Happy Holidays to all.
If you want the N or R from the Queensbridge Shuttle - change at 57th St instead of getting off at Lexinton Av (63 St).
For the 4,5,6 stay on the Shuttle until 42 St and Shuttle to Grand Central or
at 57 St take the uptown N or R 2 stops to Lexington Av (59 St).
Why worry about leaving the system and re-entering (which I don't think you can do for these lines at the moment from the 63 St line) when you can do regular transfers with only a tiny bit more effort.
Thanks for your response.I really wanted to examine the available priviliges. When the TA gives you something for nothing, it is worth checking into.
That really isn't the point. Signs have been posted saying that the 60th St./63rd St. transfer on Lexington Ave. is available, but without giving full details. I'd like to know just what the allowable parameters are too, even though the actual need for this transfer is questionable.
My best guess, and it is just a guess, is this:
1) Free entry at Lexington Ave./59th St. station for anyone who entered the system at 21st St./Queensbridge or Roosevelt Island stations (only) within the past two hours. Does not count as using your transfer.
2) Free entry at 63rd St./Lexington Ave. station to anyone whose last Metrocard use was entry to the subway within the last two hours at any station EXCEPT 63rd St./Lex., Roosevelt Island or
21st St./Queensbridge. Does not count as using your transfer.
There is no way to know who exited at 59th St./Lex., so basically they have to allow nearly all subway users to re-enter the system at
63rd St./Lex.
Why doesn't the TA install MetroCard encoders in stations from which free MetroCard transfers are permitted? Just place them along the wall near (inside) the turnstiles. The rider swipes before he leaves, and proof that he has been in the station is encoded on his card; if he enters the other station within, say, 18 minutes, no fare is deducted.
Hey, buddy, can you do me a favor and swipe this card through that reader over there?
-Hank
Valid point, but it's still more secure than the current system as long as the system also verifies that the card has been used for entry into the system within the past two hours (or whatever). That is, insist that (a) the MetroCard has been used to enter the subway system within the past two hours and (b) the same MetroCard has passed through the station in question. Currently the temporary free transfers only verify (a).
Besides, not many New Yorkers would be willing to hand a stranger a MetroCard unless it had no value left.
Hi, fellow buff; Thanks for helping to clarify the train-to-train transfer. I had tried to get a response from many station agents. They either ignored the question, or gave me other (inaccurate) suggestions.Your analysis sounds about right.
Dear friends,please forgive some unscientific memories.The Q's as I have said before were notoriously slow with the Composite trucks and yet they were regarded as venerable senior citizens by railfans in the 1960's.They were the last of the old el cars and a link to bygone days. When we heard about the run in between the Q-Type and the SIRT MU at Fresh Pond we assumed the worst. However the Q had only a bloody nose and the SIRT was sprawled out on the LIRR. It kind of like your grandfather getting into the ring with Buster Douglas and knocking him flat on his back.
Redbird
Most photos we see of the Q's were 3 car trains. Don't forget, they ran as 6 car trains during the rush. They would be added before the Myrtle/Chambers trains came out, and would be cut after they were laid up. I remember watching the men at Metropolitan adding these cars up. It was quite an operation. Those guys WERE Motormen, not train operators. One guy would hold the drawhead in place, another would insert the hook, another would insert the pin. Then, they would insert the MU cables-no such thing as an electric portion as is today. When the second piece would arrive, they would gingerly bring both trains together, insert the second pin and connect the cables. Real men.....Men who weren't afraid to get his hands dirty....unlike today.
Imagine that - a wooden car getting the better end after a run-in with a steel car. That's like David vs Goliath. The Jets beating the Colts in Super Bowl III. The Mets beating the Orioles in the 1969 World Series. I remember both events.
Now, what if that Q had hit a BMT standard?....
All bets would be off.It is a shame though that more use wasn't made of the SIRT cars on the BMT.Their design was strongly influenced by the Standards. Its too bad they were here for such a short time.
Regards,Redbird.
The SIRT MUs ran until 1971 on Staten Island. At that time they were 46 years old. They were replaced with the R44 equipment that is in service today. For a brief period LIRR equipment was used until the R44s arrived. For years there was some old SIRT cars parked on the rails near the West Shore Expressway, they are now gone, probably scrapped.
One of the cars was (alledgedly) shipped to Branford. The otherr car belongs to the NY Trolley Museum in Kingston, and is stored on the Con Edison property in Travis, according to someone from the museum (I'd have a name, if I were home)
-Hank
SIRT car #388 was shipped to Branford/Shore Line Trolley Museum
in 1992. Kingston (TrMNY) lists car #353 on their roster, not
on site. I think this is the one still down in S.I. at the
Con Ed plant. They also had another S.I. car, a trailer, on
the property that was vandalized and may have been scrapped.
I have seen SIRT #388 at Shoreline. It has been repainted, but from what I gather does not run. It was on a storage track, next to BMT standard 2775, which was also sporting a fresh paint job. Kind of appropriate, don't you think?
The SIRT cars were indeed similar in terms of general dimensions to the BMT standards. The chief differences were end vestibules with single doors plus one set of twin center doors and harsh, angular lines. Had the subway tunnel to Staten Island been built, the SIRT cars would have been able to navigate through BMT tunnels quite comfortably. For many years it was thought that the SIRT cars could m. u. with the standards, but after the TA acquired 30 surplus units (25 motor cars and 5 trailers), it was discovered they would not do so. The motorized units saw service on the Culver and West End lines, and were retired when the R-27s arrived. The trailers never saw subway service.
I believe we have #366 at Seashore. I haven't seen it myself, but I have it from a good authority that it's sitting under a tarp somewhere on the grounds!
Indeed it is at Seashore. A while back I sent Dave a picture of it to post on the Museum Roster Page. Dave -- if you can't find it I'll try to locate it again for you.
Would have been naught but kindling wood, methinks. The Q would have telescoped twenty feet or more had it hit a BMT Standard at 20+.
The accident at Fresh Pond - the SIRT unit sounds like it rolled over onto its side?
Wayne
Wayne. The incident occured in the early hours of Jan 14,1966. Q-Type 1609C hit SIRT 2925T head on and pushed him down into the LIRR cut though I believe the SIRT stayed heads up.
Regards,Redbird
Thanks Redbird! I have made note of that in my "Q" Car sheet.
Don't have any BMT/SIRT numbers though...just some of the old 300 series that I saw when they were still in SI service. Those were the most rickety cars I have ever ridden on, even more so than the "MJ" Q cars! It felt like they were going to fall apart as they went. You could hear valves wheezing and steam hissing and they NEVER got above maybe 25 MPH. I had three trips out to SI - one in '69 and two in '70. Next time I went out there = "Ding Dong": 400 series R44s.
Wayne
We did have one SIRT trailer car that was burned to the frame by arsonists and was scrapped a few years ago. Speaking of which is there still a time delay between the dingdong and doors closing on those 44s
The R-44s as originally built had a 5 second delay between the chimes sounding and the doors closing. It was quickly realized in the rush-rush world of NYC that this would never work and the delay was removed. At least on the NYC subway R-44s.
Sounds like the delay was not taken off the SIRT R-44 set.
--Mark
The time delay was removed from the Staten Island R-44s when the cars were overhauled c. 1990.
David
Thanks for the info!
--Mark
Wayne. I first rode the SIRT in 1964 when it still had numerous grade crosssings.In those days the fare was 20,25 or 35 cents depending on far you traveled.During the week there was half hourly base service to Tottenville with half hourly trippers to Great Kills.There was a short period from about Jun 72 to early 73 when five LIRR MU's ran there also to help out until the R-44's arrived.See my e-mail for more info,
Regards,Redbird
Nobody messed with a BMT standard and got away with it That was one tough car. Just ask R-16 #6494.
Hear,hear.Steve was that the R-16 whose undamaged end was connected to an R-27?
Redbird
Yep, it sure was.
Tonight on my way to work, unless I was hallucinating, I saw what were likely 3 subway cars on trailers on the Gowanus Westbound by the BQE. They were wrapped in white plastic, that had 3 'dips' in them, approximately where IRT doors would be...any other ideas?
-Hank
[Tonight on my way to work, unless I was hallucinating, I saw what were likely 3 subway cars on trailers on the Gowanus Westbound by the BQE. They were wrapped in white plastic, that had 3 'dips' in them, approximately where IRT doors would be...any other ideas?]
Being sent to an offsite maintenance facility?
Didn't look like it. They were heading west/south. Maybe returning from, but what's being overhauled now?
-Hank
At the present time, no NYCT equipment is undergoing any off-site overhaul.
Here's a question perhaps one of our TA or "private" employees can answer -- I thought this one up while riding the Q-33 to the while heading to the WCBS XMAS party last night... I almost added some $$ to my Metrocard at Roosevelt Ave. when I wondered:
If I board a bus and dip my card, then go to a subway token booth and ask that the contents of the card be transferred to a new card, or that additional funds be added to the same card -- is the free transfer retained so that I can then enter the subway? Or does updating and/or tranferring wipe out the transfer?
IT must have been some party. I tuned in this morning at 5 and both
Jeff and Pat were AWOL!!
I heard those sleepy voices at 5:00 a.m. too... I was waking up at a LGA hotel for my 6:30 a.m. USAirways Shuttle back to Boston.
Wayne and Daria, who filled in, WERE at the party, and they were still there when I left at 9:45 p.m. to catch the ! So was Craig Allen. Our dinner table was truly Traffic & Weather Together: Craig Allen, Ron Anderson, Chris Maget, and me along with others.
While I don't qualify as an expert I can possibly relate my own experience. I say possibly because I remember being in that situation and If I'm not mistaken I took the chance that the transfer would still work. It did work. What I'm not sure of is whether I followed through with my original plan to add to the card in the middle or changed the plan. I think out of the need to take a bus first I did stick to the original plan.
Had to take my girlfriend to JFK for a 4:30am flight last night so I took the A. Well, it runs local, which gave me all the more time to see what goes on underground at that time of night.
- I saw a man passed out on the floor, he didn't move from 42nd to Howard Beach, He was probably dead, And it was in the conductors cab!
- I saw a bunch (10+) of kids spray painting in 4 foot tall letters on the queens bound platform of kingston throop, all the way from front to end, in green and red. They covered the whole length of the platform. When the train pulled in all they did was run.
- I saw a teen ager (about 17) threaten his girlfriend with a box cutter for about 3 stops, then when he was done, he carved up the seats for another 2 stops.
After I dropped my girlfriend off I decided to go to Rockaway Park. (I hadn't been there in a year)At broad Channel there was a drunken man trying to punch the conductors TV's out of their cases above the platform.
-And they want to put un-manned R-142's on this line in a year or two???????They will be destroyed
I said it before to universal criticism -- we would be better off cutting back the subway and running limited stop/express bus service in its place in the late night hours. The late night subway is dangerous to public safety, open to vandalism, and has a huge cost per ride. It is also slow, since there is no express service and frequent shuttles.
I'd bet that running the IRT to mass-transfer stations at the Hub in the Bronx, Boro Hall in Brooklyn, and Queens Plaza, and buses in the other boroughs, would be faster, cheaper, and safer. With the stations dark, you couldn't move around without a flashlight, and light sensors could alert the police. Would a limited-stop bus down Atlantic Avenue/Conduit/Cross Bay really take longer than an A train making all local stops?
[I said it before to universal criticism -- we would be better off cutting back the subway and running limited stop/express bus service in its place in the late night hours. The late night subway is dangerous to public safety, open to vandalism, and has a huge cost per ride. It is also slow, since there is no express service and frequent shuttles.
I'd bet that running the IRT to mass-transfer stations at the Hub in the Bronx, Boro Hall in Brooklyn, and Queens Plaza,and buses in the other boroughs, would be faster, cheaper, and safer.]
The more and more I think about your idea, the more sense it makes. While I don't necessarily agree that late night service should be cut back quite as far as you suggest, maintaining 24/7 service at nearly every station is an idea whose time has passed, if indeed it ever had arrived. It's interesting to guess the extent to which the farebox recovery rate would increase if late night services were reduced. My suspicion is that the savings would more than pay for the increased bus costs.
But don't hold your breath. The unions would fight any such plan to the death, and we'd hear cries of discrimination from the lower-income neighborhoods.
(The unions would fight any such plan to the death, and we'd hear cries of discrimination from lower-income neighborhoods).
The hue and cry would be against change, period, but I do not propose cutting service or employment, but increasing the frequency of service by running more buses instead of few trains to residential neighborhoods.
We have a situation now where bus service virtually shuts down in the overnight hours. Moreover, train service is expensive when lightly used because you have a high fixed cost (manning stations, signals) etc. with little variable return. The current solution is to de-man the stations, remove the conductors, and increase the hellishly long headways. That will just lead to more vandalism, and more crime.
The limited stop bus service would be better than the direction we are heading, and cheaper than running trains every 10 minutes with manned stations, conductors, etc in the middle of the night with virtually no one on board. Better that people use a train which runs every five minutes or less to get across the rivers (full stations, full platforms, full trains, nice and safe), then a bus or van which runs every 5 -- 15 minutes to get home from the transfer point. That is certainly what I would prefer.
But wouldn't it take a few hours to pull all the trains into the yards after 1:00 am, just to start pulling them out at 5:00 am for the morning rush?
(Time needed to turn off, turn on, stations if some lines replaced by special buses at night). I guess you'd have to have the last through train run through the CBD just after midnight in each direction, and the first to pull through just after 6:30 in each direction, so yes there is a limit to how long the stations would be closed. Enough for some savings, however, enough savings to pay for the enhanced bus service which would represent a service improvement.
The other thing is, it would be safer to do track work when the line was shut down completely. A crew could do some work on the "inbound" track starting at, say, 11:30, then switch over to the outbound track in the morning.
The other idea someone mentioned -- run expresses to the end of the line with local buses above, and close local stations -- has some merit. You'd have to run the trains more frequently, however, to avoid two long waits -- one for the train, and one for the local bus. These days, buses run every 40 or 60 minutes at night.
Somehow, I don't think people are pulling their hair out figuring out how to run better-cheaper late night service, other than the obvious -- cut service and remove station personnel and conductors, vs. run more empty trains and buses at an exhorbitant cost. Got to think the unthinkable here.
When I first visited Toronto in the mid-80's I found it hard to believe that the subway didn't run all night. But it never did from the start and people accepted it. Each line very clearly posted first and last train times in each station and you were directed to "night bus" replacement service during closed hours. It seemed to work. And Toronto isn't a particularly unsafe city - the main reason for the shutdown was more related to economy. The lower volumes of riders in the overnight hours could be better handled by bus.
SEPTA tried this in '92 after several false starts, during which the TWU complained bitterly about safety, service levels, etc etc. After it was tried, riders were found to like it better - they felt more comfortable on the street, they felt safer on a bus rather than an unmanned subway car (in most instances), and the bus service was more frequent so waits were shorter. No one bothered to ask the riders BEFORE the switch - the only voices heard (loudly) were those of the TWU.
The bus substitution continues to work well, and there is allegedly talk of busing the subway-surface cars which for some dumb reason still use the subway overnight on the three lines which have "owl" service. It could probably work in NYC.
What would the running time for a bus be on the D from 205 St. Bronx to Coney Island? What about the F from 179 St. to Coney Island? What about service reliability? I would afraid to find out what it is for the A from 207 St. to Far Rock! Lots of traffic lights! Lots of bridge construction/lane closings during the midnite hours. The fact is, the lines in NYC are too long to substitute buses & besides, in some locations, finding a place to lay up all those trains off the mainline would be a definite problem.
Also, the "L" would have to take a long detour to get from First Ave. to Bedford Ave.!
(NYC subways too long to substitute buses -- running time).
First of all, I'd continue to run the IRT to the Hub in the Bronx, Downtown Brooklyn, and Queens Plaza (7). With everyone from Manhattan getting on just a few lines, you could run half-full trains every few mintues. There is nothing worse than the long wait for a train in the middle of the night on an empty platform. And look at the map -- with the IRT alone, no one would have to walk more than one block!
At one of these transfer points you'd board your bus. I envision a happening scene, with 20 buses/vans set to leave as the subway passengers arrive and get on, food vendors present, musicians, and -- most important -- a cop or two.
You'd follow the daytime subway and bus routes sometimes, but you wouldn't have to -- this would be a unique service. You'd use Ocean Parkway, Ocean Avenue, Eastern Parkway, Linden Boulevard, etc. in Brooklyn, Queens Boulevard, Northern Boulevard, etc. in Queens. You'd certainly use the Councourse. The key thing here is the lack of traffic, and the need to stop only when someone gets on or off. Could a bus (with lights) beat a subway (with stations) down a boulevard? Not during the day. But at 2:45 a.m.?
BTW there is talk of installing technology which allows an approaching bus to change the light. I don't know if buses could be allowed to do that in the middle of the day -- it would screw up signal timing. But in the wee hours, why not? A bus would never hit a light.
What about Far Rockway? With the money you'd save by closing all those stations, why follow the A line? Instead, the Far Rock Night Owl bus could leave from Queens Plaza, get on the LIE and run express to Woodhaven, then run down Woodhaven/Cross Bay to serve those areas. A lot faster from Times Square, I'd say. Or, it could leave from Brooklyn and run non-stop down Flatbush Ave to, say, Marine Park (Flatbush would be served by an "inner" bus) and then over the bridge and down the peninsula.
Why do we need a subway? Because it allows people to bypass the traffic on the streets and highways, and because you can serve huge volumes of people. Buses crawl along, and can't handle that many people. But at 2:45 a.m. there is less traffic, and fewer people. The bus becomes better.
I agree with Bill's post about some lines being way too long for complete substitution, thus I would also agree with Larry's thoughts on what I'll call retention of "key" subway lines which could feed replacement bus lines. But, there could be problems when bus routes start to wander too far from the replaced subway lines:
1. What happens if one misses the last bus? The "normal" bus network would need to be structured such that patrons could be directed to alternate service if this happens. In Phila, this is minimal since both "owl" bus routes follow their respective rapid routes almost exactly.
2. Need for some overlap - again, the SEPTA way is to start bus service just before rapid service ends, giving some overlap between the two. The duplication allows some riders to make choices and not necessarily get stranded or inconvenienced for long periods of time. This gets more difficult when the routes don't coincide.
I've heard the arguments about lack of storage space for trains and the 1:00 AM departure from 207th doesn't get to Far Rock until 2:30 AM, etc, but I think the idea has merit.
I have riden the system late at night and to far flung areas. I would rather ride the train (in the car with the train operator or the conductor-if present, than a bus which is open to random crimes on every corner. Subway crime at night would be further reduced if people would observe the off hours waiting area signs and rode in groups- and yes, run shorter trains. Also-if the police would keep out the homeless and panhandlers for the rest of the night and if the penalties for "anti-social" acts were raised to a substantial level they might think twice before commiting these acts. I could see it now-$10,000 for fare beating-first offense and $25,000 for second plus undercover cops in every station might reduce this problem.
It sounds like a classic situation for Rudy to experiment with one of his "Zero Tolerance" policies for disorderly conduct.
Any ideas?
[Also-if the police would keep out the homeless and panhandlers for the rest of the night and if the penalties for "anti-social" acts were raised to a substantial level they might think twice before commiting these acts. I could see it now-$10,000 for fare beating-first offense and $25,000 for second plus undercover cops in every station might reduce this problem.]
Imposing such high fines would be an exercise in futility because people simply would refuse to pay. Look at all the motorists who manage to run up tens of thousands of dollars in tickets and never bother to pay. What might work is to impose mandatory jail sentences for anti-social subway behavoir. For instance, to follow up a recent thread, the penalty for "scrachitti" could be 30 days, preferably in some sort of "boot camp" facility like those used in some states. Most subway vandals and other criminals suffer from grossly inflated senses of self-worth, so a little ego deflation is just what the doctor ordered. For this to work, the laws would have to be crafted so that prosecutors and judges have no discretion whatsoever to impose lesser penalties; once again, there's some precedent for that, with some states having no-plea-bargain drug penalties. Sure, this sort of system would be tough, but sometimes tough solutions are what you need.
[I'd bet that running the IRT to mass-transfer stations at the Hub in the Bronx, Boro Hall in Brooklyn, and Queens Plaza, and buses in the other boroughs, would be faster, cheaper, and safer.]
This might work, but I'd move those transfer stations much farther out. Or here's another thought: why cut back *expresses* during night hours? Run shuttle buses to serve local stations and surrounding neighborhoods, and you might be able to cut travel time as well as cost.
That being said, I think that reinforcing a 24-hour city, rather than cutting it off at the knees by further reductions in service, is a better option. Being able to stay out and get around all night is an aspect of quality of life that New Yorkers take for granted.
-Daniel Casey
I think that there are a few points that we are all missing:
1) Standing out on the streets waiting for a bus for an hour in the middle of the night during the winter is COLD.
2) Standing out in the middle of the street waiting for a bus for an hour is a great way to get yourself killed or at the very least, mugged. You think it's any safer than the subway??? I think not. Try doing that in Jackson Heights. That's how I almost got myself killed.
3) The pride we have in our subway system is that it's pretty much OPEN ALL THE TIME 24/7. So you don't have to worry about not being able to get home when you want to go home. I've been in Boston after the subways closed and there is NO way to get back home.
Shame on you SubTalkers for advocating a cutback in service. You sound like the MTA now.
Points taken, but
1. No one is talking about an hour wait on the street - at least I'm not. If a schedule is printed and followed, and timed connections can be made to other lines, this may work better.
2. Standing on cold el platforms is better?
3. People can get killed and mugged on subway and el platforms also.
4. Service enhancement, as opposed to service reduction, is what I think is important. If folks don't ride at night because they feel unsafe (the main problem riders were abandoning rapid transit here in Phila, despite statistics that showed otherwise), isn't it better to provide a mode on which they will feel comfortable?
I said it before to universal criticism -- we would be better off cutting back the subway and running limited stop/express bus service in its place in the late night hours. The late night subway is dangerous to public safety, open to vandalism, and has a huge cost per ride. It is also slow, since there is no express service and frequent shuttles.
I'd bet that running the IRT to mass-transfer stations at the Hub in the Bronx, Boro Hall in Brooklyn, and Queens Plaza, and buses in the other boroughs, would be faster, cheaper, and safer. With the stations dark, you couldn't move around without a flashlight, and light sensors could alert the police. Would a limited-stop bus down Atlantic Avenue/Conduit/Cross Bay really take longer than an A train making all local stops? Even at 2:45 pm, when no one is on the road.
The current on-line edition of Metro-North's "mileposts" as an article on the Grand Central North access project. One paragraph in the article is particularly intriguing.
Now would probably be a good time to confess that the 45th Street Passageway isn't really a new passageway at all. It's actually made from an existing tunnel known as the "45th Street Trucking Subway." Back when the Terminal served trains such as the 20th Century Limited, a lot of mail was delivered by rail. It was off loaded into the "subway" and carted to and from the Post Office.
Does this mean that there is a passageway connecting Grand Central with the Grand Central (or the main?) post office? Anyone have more details on this passageway? Is the access project using the entire passageway or just a portion?
--Mark
Mark. I have worked in Grand Central Terminal and walked through both trucking subways. The 43 Street Trucking Subway is known as "The Burma Road" to the railroad people because the hugh steam pipes that run through it generate tremendous heat.Thsi one is not included in the North-End Access project. The 45 Street Trucking Subway again ran completely accross the tracks while underneath the lower level.I remember there was a small motor pool down there for the little gas trucks we drove around the terminal.I do believe this one connected to the old post office but I do know that the tracks 14 and 15 had mail shutes and conveyor belts and were used for loading the RPO.
Tracks 11 and 13 were used for express packages.
Regards,Redbird
Interesting! Thanks for the info.
--Mark
Mark,
The Post Office in question is the Grand Central Post Office (45th & Lexington).
It used to be a lot larger than it is.
Here's some more info: A lot of mail was delivered through the Grand Central Station Post Office (the trains stop at the "terminal," but the mail is delivered at "stations"). A whole series of stub tracks underlies the Post Office -- trains could be backed in or brought through the turn-around tracks to directly beneath the station. Obviously, mail could be offloaded and delivered to the P.O. through the 45th street tunnel. Probably (don't know b/c this is so long ago), dedicated mail trains were parked at the E. side of the terminal near the P.O., while long-distance expresses, which carried some mail, were located to discharge passangers easily, with the delivery of mail through the tunnel being a second consideration.
The entire tunnel is _not_ being used for the N. access project (at least, pedestrians can't use it). There are no platforms under the P.O., so no one will be entering the tunnel there. Also, there are and no entrances/exits east of Park Ave.
-mhg
Can anyone supply info on the B & O bus service from their old Jersey City terminal that deposited passengers in the grand Central area accross from station, supposedly in the basement of the Chanin bldg? Can one view any remnants of this service? I understand there was a turntable to turn the buses because of the narrow confines of the bldg.
I have a question for my fellow sub talkers who are learned in old BMT lore. I know that some AB's had small sign windows and some had large. When did this begin? Was it with the 2600's, the first Presed Steel cars or did it start with some of the ACF cars. Again thans in advance for any info.
Regards,Redbird
Not sure which ones had which type of signs, but I do know that the ones with smaller roll signs were older. Also, the smaller roll signs were in the "door pocket" area, and were obscured from inside the train by the doors when they were open.
Another note -- the 4000 series standard trailers had large roll signs, but not in the same location as the 2000 series motors (the motors with large signs had them in the windows nearest the center door, while the trailers had them one window further from the center of the car).
-- Ed Sachs
Ed. I didn't know that about the BX's. Thanks for the info.
Redbird.
Gene Sansone covers that in his new book, which I'll have to check. I believe the 2500s and up had the larger signs. 2204 at the Transit Museum has small signs; 2775 at Shoreline has large signs.
BTW, I unfurled my large route curtain which graced one of the standards, and it does not have a 4th Ave. Exp. sign. So apparently the BRT never had any intention of running such a service. This curtain does have, however, "14th St. Line", in addition to "14th St. L'c'l" and "14th St. Exp". It also has "Nassau Street", but not "Nassau Loop"; "Via Bridge" and "Via Tunnel", but no "Via Bridge then via Tunnel to Brooklyn". It even has "Broadway/Brooklyn Exp".
Dear Friends;here's a story to warm your hearts on a cold winter's day. As I'm sure you know the 42 St Shuttle suffered a disasterous fire on April 21,1964.The fire totally destroyed the train on Track 3 and the cars were scrapped on the spot(6595,6597,6601 and 7740).The train on track 4 was the automated train which was heavily damaged and never returned to service.(7509,7513,7516).The nice part to this story is about the motorman on the track 1 which was in service. When his train arrived at Grand Central he saw smoke comming from under the platform and hastily discharged his passengers and them immediately rushed his train back to Times Square.He must have been one of those old IRT men who above all would "save the equiptment."
Regards,Redbird
[The nice part to this story is about the motorman on the track 1 which was in service. When his train arrived at Grand Central he saw smoke comming from under the platform and hastily discharged
his passengers and them immediately rushed his train back to Times Square.He must have been one of those old IRT men who above all would "save the equiptment."]
In other words, he dumped off the passengers at a station where there was a major fire in progress but got the equipment out of harm's way?
I thought the story was that the mororman, seeing there was a fire in progress, dumped his train, reversed and returned to Times Square ...
I have info on this at home ... I'll check if this info is included and let you all know.
--Mark
No Peter,not quite that way. When he arrived at GCT he saw smoke coming from under the then wooden platform over the former tk 2. It was not yet a major conflagration but a stituation that needed prompt attention.He and his conductor saw to it that the passengers exited the area.Then instead of running themselves they returned to the train and moved it back to Times Square.A commendable and heroic act.
Redbird
Does any one knows how the automated train worked at the 42st shuttle back in the 60's?
I rode the automated shuttle the first day or two of operation. It pulled into the stations very slowly, and then came to a hard stop with a jerk. After a couple of weeks of tuning, the ride was much smoother.
At the time, the TWU was very much opposed to automation, and the startup of service with the automated train was, I believe, delayed several days (or weeks) until an agreement could be worked out with the union. The agreement was that a qualified motorman was to ride on the train at all times which it operated. He just sat in the train, riding as a passenger. (I don't recall if that lasted or not).
In general, the automated train ran all day. It was on track 4. Track 3 was used rush hours only -- in non rush hours the track 3 train was generally parked at Grand Central with the doors open in the second and third cars (4 car train) to allow passengers to use it as a "bridge" between the two platforms.
I've heard that that fire was deliberately set, quite possibly as a form of protest against automation. It was so intense that some of the overhead steel beams buckled. BTW, the wooden walkways were filled in with concrete after that fire.
Steve> I've heard that the story too but I don't know the veracity of it. I do know that for about two months after the fire Track 4 was only for westbound service and Track 1 only for eastbound service.Meanwhile Track 3 was rebuilt an a concrete platform installed over Track 2.Naturally platform conductors were stationed at both terminals to direct passengers.It must have been quite hot because as you say those steel beams did indeed buckle.
Regards,Redbird
Folks ....
Here's a biography of the automated GCT / Times Square IRT shuttle train. I hope to get to the library next week and get some more info about the fire and the investigation afterward, since I don't have much on it. If anyone has info on this, I'd be happy to add it to the biography. Also, I know it was called SAM but I do not know what SAM stood for; do any of you know?
Information for parts of this biography was obtained from the Sept 1974 edition of ERA's "Headlights".
If anyone wants to add or correct anything to the attached, please let me know. One thing I'd like to know is that the Headlights article mentioned that the GE R-22s were considered less reliable than the Westinghouse R-22s. Was this true in general or just for the automated train tests? If so, why? What aspect(s) of the GE cars were deemed unreliable compared to the Westinghouse cars? I'd like to add this info to the attached biography.
Dave .. feel free to take this post and place it in the "NYC Subway in History" section of the web site.
(And coming early in 1999, a brief history of the IND for the "Line by Line" section. Really!)
Enjoy!
--Mark
SAM: The Automated IRT Shuttle Train, Born 1959, Died April 21st, 1964
Early in 1959, the chairman of the NYC Transit Authority, Charles Patterson, gave a speech on the future of rapid transit. One of his prophecies was the notion of automated transit equipment without motormen or conductors. General Electric officials got wind of this speech, and pointed out to him that the technology for such a feat was already available at that time. GE proposed that they should be given the opportunity to demonstrate the technology.
A few months later, Patterson held a meeting with GE and Westinghouse (traction), General Railway Signal (GRS) and Union Switch and Signal (US&S) (signals) and WABCO (Westinghouse Air Brake Company - brakes), and floated the idea of automating a short subway line. The Times Square - Grand Central Shuttle was selected as a candidate. At this meeting, various proposals for the automated shuttle were discussed, and an agreement was reached. The NYCTA would supply the cars; the signal companies would provide the necessary equipment for the cars and the Shuttle, as well as the technicians to perform / oversee the work. It was interesting that Patterson bought off on this proposal; he was also considering the idea of turning the Shuttle into some kind of rubber tired guideway that would have been sponsored by a major tire manufacturer and rubber company.
The Sea Beach express Manhattan-bound express track, the TA's "proving ground", was once again selected for testing the automation. The area of track used was situated between New Utrecht Ave and 18th Ave, since that area of track best represented the Shuttle track and could be used without interfering with regular subway service.
The automation basically worked like this:
While the train is sitting at the station, the doors would remain open. Automated commands would tell the train to keep the doors open. At a prescribed interval, these commands would stop, telling the train that the doors should close.
Once the doors were closed and indication was given to proceed (doors are locked), another series of commands would accelerate the train to 30mph. These commands would be sent to the train through the running rails. As long as these commands continued, the train would remain at 30mph.
Approaching the other end of the shuttle line, the train would pass over an insulated rail joint, and new commands slowing the train down to 6 mph would be given. Never having been on that train, I would surmise that the braking affect was sudden and not necessarily smooth.
Passing over yet another insulated rail joint (now inside the station), the 6mph commands could no longer be given to the train, causing an air brake application to stop the train within a certain tolerance.
Once stopped, door open commands would be sent to the train from wayside equipment, causing the doors to open, control of the train to be changed to the opposite direction, the lighting of the appropriate side destination signs and the headlights at the (new) front of the train.
The entire series of commands would be repeated in the opposite direction, ad nauseum.
The decision on how much to slow the train and how quickly was based on tests done by the NYCTA using R-22 cars on the Sea Beach Line in the fall of 1959. These tests were done under manual operation, and using two different types of brake shoes - conventional (cast iron) and Cobra (special composition). The tests concluded that an accurate stop within acceptable tolerances could be made using the Cobra shoes at a speed of 6 mph.
Early automation tests were done in February and March of 1960 using the following R-22 cars:
End car 7686 was outfitted for ATO by US&S
Center car 7675 was outfitted with testing equipment
End car 7654 was outfitted for ATO by GRS.
The early tests revealed the unreliability of the braking equipment as well as battery voltage regulation on the GE-based cars. Two Westinghouse-based cars were coupled to the train and after running tests using this 5-car set, it was determined that the Westinghouse cars would perform more reliably. As a result, the original three R-22s were discontinued from further use in the automated train and were replaced as follows:
7516 with US&S equipment
7509 with the test equipment
7513 with GRS equipment
Tests continued into April as the automation system was checked and adjusted, and analysis was conducted to determine where bast to place the insulated rail joints that would be used to slow and stop the train. Further analysis was done into June of 1960. It turned out that the placement of the insulated rail joints was based on the train having new sets of brake shoes in all the cars; shoes that were broken in needed less stopping distance. It was also calculated that the automated train would take 95 seconds to travel between stops, vs. 85 seconds for a manned train.
The TA, figuring that you could never be too safe, installed grade time stops on the Sea Beach Line test area, and tested them in the early months of 1961. They wanted to ensure that, in the event of a runaway train, backup devices would be satisfactory to stop the train. (Basically, this was the predecessor of the wheel detector - if a train passed between two points faster than a predetermined time, the trip arm would remain up causing the train to go into BIE as it passed the trip arm.)
The automated train, now called SAM, was demonstrated to APTA officials in October, 1960, and to the Interstate Commerce Commission in March, 1961. Also in March of 1961, both US&S and GRS were awarded contracts to automate the Times Square - Grand Central Shuttle train running on track 4. Equipment for the cars was delivered and installed at Coney Island Shops, and again tested on the Sea Beach test track in the summer of 1961. The system was expected to be operating by October 1st of that same year.
The automated train was actually running during the fall of 1961 without passengers, running tests to ensure its safety and operation. On January 4th, 1962 at 3:17pm lasting until about 7pm, the first automated train in the US began revenue service. Although not needed, in deference to the TWU, a motorman rode the train at all times but did not operate it. The following day the train ran according to the regular shuttle timetable for track 4. Signs were posted all over track 4 indicating that the train was being automatically operated. The motorman did not ride in his cab. The public didn't seem to care (except, of course, for the railfans).
The automated train ran daily from January 1962 until April 1964, and the equipment proved reliable. Some people complained about the braking; the cobra brake shoes squealed more than conventional brake shoes, giving people the perception of a rough stop. Tests revealed no difference between the automated train stopping and a manned-train stopping.
On April 21st, 1964, a small but intense fire of suspicious origin engulfed a manually operated train on track 3 and melted it away. Steel beams holding up the station roof actually buckled and 42nd Street was closed for a time. There was fear that the street would collapse into the station. R-17 Cars 6595,6597,6601 and R-22 car 7740 were carted away from the station as scrap. The automated train was sitting on track 4 and was significantly damaged. Ironically, the wayside / relay equipment, a short distance away from the train, was not touched at all. By this time, the TA management had changed, and the management of 1964 was not interested in running the automated train. Two cars of the train (numbers unknown) ended up being scrapped; the other became an IRT clearance car.
While automatic train operation ended in NY, the successful implementation of ATO during the first 4 1/2 years of 1960 set the precedent for systems like San Francisco's BART and PATCO's Lindenwold Line.
Does any one have any pictures of the fire?
How automated are the Lindenwold PATCO trains? The motorman (driver? :) does seem to do something with a selector of some kind...
I am not sure, since I rode them a long time ago, but the operator hits a "start" button and the train goes to the next station. The train can be manually controlled by disengaging the control level from it's locked position and using it as a single controller(power and braking from the same stick). This is done during icy conditions , etc.
Chuck Greene
According to "The Lindenwold High Speed Line" by Vigrass,PATCO can operate either under full ATO or in a mode called "Manual-ATC" (Automatic Train CONTROL). In this mode,the train is operated manually,but under the guidance of the cab signal system. Since PATCO's ATO provides only one acceleration rate,manual operation may become necessary under slippery rail conditions. The book also states that PATCO Train Operators are required to make one trip per day in the "Manual-ATC" mode to maintain their operating skills.
In addition to what Fitz writes, I heard an operator on the Lindenwold line explaining to some riders that the underground sections of the line in Camden and Philadelphia are operated manually. (I don't know about the river crossing.) That was during the summer of 1997. The railfan seats on the PATCO cars are probably the best in the country--upholstered, plush, on the right side of the car, with the operator seated to the left (like an automobile)--and no partition. A great line to ride, with a nice variety of operation, including looking for closed stations.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Ed, which closed stations were you thinking of? The only ones that
come to mind are Franklin Place just over the bridge and the old
Lindenwold shore train depot, under the current NJTransit/Amtrak
(well, used to be Amtrak) depot at Lindenwold. Are there more?
Franklin Square is the only closed station on the line (Lindenwold is still partially used, but not a PATCO station). Depending on the time you ride, 9th/10th and City Hall might also be closed (they are not open after hours and on weekends).
There are parts of City Hall that are closed off but still visible.
Lee (and Bobw)--
I was definitely thinking of Franklin Place, but not any other specific stations. But are there traces of the operation from Camden into Philadelphia before Lindenwold was opened? Wasn't Camden elevated?
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
The former Bridge Line portion of PATCO (15th/16th to Broadway) has always been subway, except for the Ben Franklin Bridge portion. The only pre-PATCO vestiges of the Bridge Line remaining are:
1. The 3-track yard beneath the Ben Franklin Bridge, north of the Camden subway portal. This can been seen better from Phila-bound trains. It was the only yard of the Bridge Line and cars were stored here (maintenance was performed at PTC/SEPTA's Fern Rock shop on the Broad Street subway). PATCO has never used the yard for passenger car storage, although the occasional work train can be seen here. I've been told that PATCO considered using it for storage of midday layups, but decided against it, especially since the track arrangement requires trains to back onto the Phila-bound track against the flow of traffic (i.e. entering it is easier than exiting, although trains from Phila would also need to cross over north of City Hall to enter it).
2. The short stub south/east of Broadway with a third trackway angling away from the Lindenwold-bound track. A storage track was to be installed here for the Bridge Line trains but never was.
Bobw--
Thanks for the information about Camden--next trip there, I'll be watching more closely.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
MARTA is automated too. The human operates the doors and makes the first trip of the morning in manual. The train starts by itself. Once I was on a MARTA train-North line, wrong railing due to earlier delays. I saw the train operator walking through the train to change ends and yes the train was going full tilt!
The human can run manually if the computer shuts down.
The Washington, D.C. Metro is also fully automatic. The driver only controls the doors and makes the voice announcements. (Although it'd be nice if the voices were automated, too - not all Metro drivers have great speaking ability.)
After reading the various responses, I would add the following:
1. PATCO trains have the capability to operate without "drivers", just as WMATA and BART (and there is a well-known story of a WMATA train going off on its own without a motorman, but I won't repeat it here). The PATCO motorman makes announcements, sets the brake at stations and controls the doors. Once the doors are closed and locked, the motorman releases the brakes (actually, the controller is a single-lever model similar to the R-46) and the ATO takes over.
2. I've heard versions of the stories that each motorman must make one manual trip per shift and that the west end of the line (the former Bridge Line in Camden and Phila) is run manually. Thus, I'm not sure which is true. I have heard that on wet days the motormen must operate manually just in case the rail adhesion is a little off and the impulses that come thru the rails aren't received properly. In this event, the motorman must follow the speed restrictions given on the console via signal (the indications are red, red/yellow, yellow, yellow/green, and full green). I have also heard on 6-car trains that motormen must take special care with braking to hit the 6-car mark at each station and not overrun them.
Wasn't that the one where the Blue line train ran away and mashed itself into an empty standing train at Foggy Bottom? At least thats the story I was told...NOT the accident at ShadyGrove
Wayne
No, the one I was thinking of was an unattended Red Line train. The operator left it for some reason at Rhode Island Ave and closed the doors behind him (her?), at which point the train continued along the line until about Metro Center. There, a supervisor keyed on and took over.
AFAIK, no system of this type permits train movements without an operator in the cab. If the operator left the cab with the train in motion,a MAJOR safety and rule violation was committed.
Might this have been a second operator,assigned to assist with the move?
I don't have any pictures myself, but I did look at the microfilm from the NY Times of April 22 and 23rd, 1964. One of the melted cars had no roof or walls lengthwise - only the fronts where the storm doors are were standing. Another picture showed an empty hull. The seats, the doors, the floor ... all gone. Nothing but ashes and melted steel hanging like water dripping at Chambers St .....
Now that I got some info on the fire, that'll be added to the revised edition of SAM's history and I'll get that to Dave ASAP.
The NY Times articles I checked did not mention what SAM stood for. I'll have to make another trip to the library someday soon and check out the Times from 1/4 or 1/5/61, when SAM first started running - perhaps I'll find more stuff there.
--Mark
Looks good so far! Are you going to go into any detail on the IND Second System?
Speaking of which, here's a street question. There is a reference to Brinkerhoff Ave. in Queens, where the present day Liberty Ave. line was supposed to be extended past Lefferts Blvd. It would have followed Liberty Ave. to Brinkerhoff Ave., then Hollis Ave. to Springfield Blvd. Looking at a present map of New York, there is no Brinkerhoff Ave., but there is a Linden Blvd. in that general vicinity.
What is Brinkerhoff Ave. known as today?
Brinkerhoff Avenue, apparently. My Hagstrom shows it in Map 12 Grid Loc. N12. It runs from Dunkirk Avenue (LIRR) to Farmers Blvd. then it turns into 109th Avenue. To find it first find Hillside Facility then look for where Liberty Avenue, Dunkirk St. and 104th Avenue all come together. It's 6 blocks south. Or look at where Liberty and Farmers Blvd come together. No doubt they planned to use 109th Avenue as part of this route, as it leads right to Hollis Ave. This would have been subway, no?
Wayne
Thanks for the info. Presumably, the Liberty Ave. extension would have been elevated, but this is unclear.
I was using a AAA map of New York. It has each and every street in the city. There is an unmarked thoroughfare at about where Brinkerhoff Ave. should be, perhaps that's it.
I'll bet they didn't have room to print it on the map; you may find it in the index (if there is one), marked with a asterisk (*).
Wayne
I dug out my AAA map again last night and located the streets you mentioned. There is no listing for Brinkerhoff Ave. in the Queens street index. It seems to be an unmarked extension of Liberty Ave., and much shorter than I thought. And, yes, 109th Ave. does lead right to Hollis Ave.
I think I've finally solved the Brinkerhoff Ave. mystery.
I checked an older street map of New York from the early 50s which was done in the same style and font as my AAA map, and it does show Brinkerhoff Ave. as beginning at 111th Ave. and 141st St., a little beyond the Van Wyck Expressway, and ending at Liberty and Dunkirk at 109th Ave. On my AAA map, that same street is 110th Ave. The 1929 "wish list" map from the 12 street and transit maps book shows the Liberty Ave. line swinging over to Brinkerhoff Ave. at about the point where it begins, then to Hollis Ave.
> Looks good so far! Are you going to go into any detail on the IND
> Second System?
I didn't get the chance to check the microfilm of the NY Times from 1929 that described the Second System, so I probably won't have much info on it other than what's already posted to the site.
But I DO have info on a system Hylan proposed that PRE-DATED the Independent City Owned System, and could be considered his "first pass". That I will include in the article.
--Mark
Someone E/Mailed recently asking me about our pick. I'll share it if you are interested. First: the simple stuff. You are in the IRT or BMT/IND. I will speak of the latter. You can pick Vacation Relief: periodically, the crew office will send you a list of jobs w/ the persons' name on vacation. You list your choices in numerical preference order. Awards are based on seniority. The TA week begins with the Sunday midnite jobs, and ends with Saturday PM jobs. Extra/Extra people are those who have no job. They check the assignment sheets day to day for their job. You are subject to having your shift (midnite, AM or PM) changed week to week along with your days off (RDO). Regular extra list people pick their shift & RDO's for the whole pick. Now for the average guy/gal who picks a job: in accordance to what you pick, you are in a shift & section. We discussed shifts already, now here are the sections: North: A/C/H/J/L/M. South: B/D/N/Q. Queens: E/F/G/R. The "H" is the Rockaway Shuttle, the Franklin Shuttle is in the south, and the "Z" is incorporated in the "J". You pick in seniority order. If you are on the road when you are scheduled to pick, you leave choices. Since each person picks 5 days of work and there are 7 days to cover in a week, it is pre determined how many people will have RDO's on all day off combinations in order to have all jobs covered all days of the week. First, you pick your daily job. If your RDO's are Sunday/ Saturday (S/S), the daily job is covered all week. But if someone has weekday RDO's, TF for example, then he/she will pick weekend jobs. Finally, you have RDO relief. That person will pick weekday jobs of those who are off. For example, if that person is off TW, then he will pick the Monday job of someone who is off either SM or MT. He is off TW, then he will pick a Thursday job of someone who is off WT or TF. For Friday, he will pick the job of someone who is off TF or FS. He may want the same job on T & F. Of course, he will pick a job on Sat. & a job on Sun. Holidays where Sat. or Sun. schedules are operated: seperate pick. If your RDO is on a holiday, you are off. Those who normally work on this weekday holiday would pick either from a Sat. schedule or a Sun. schedule, in accordance to which will be operated. For example, since Christmas is on a Friday, we will have a Sunday schedule. If your RDO's are TF or FS, you are off automatically even though you have a Sunday job. Since less people would be needed to work than on a normal Friday, the difference will have the option of picking off until the quota is filled. Everyone else will pick a job. So someone who is normally off on Sunday will pick a Sunday schedule job & work Christmas Day. With RDO relief, you could have a different work location & line most every day. For example, someone in the north could work the "A" from Lefferts one day; the "A" from 207 St. another, the "M" out of Met another, and so on. Seniority rules. The bus drivers have "pre-packaged " jobs. You will always work out of the same depot. The only problem is: if you like a daily job & it has RDO's of TF, and you have the seniority for S/S, and want those days off, you have a choice to make! The TA wanted the motormen & conductors to have a pre-packaged pick but the arbitrator ruled in favor of the workers, because traveling to your location & seniority go hand in hand. If you have any more questions, ask it here or click onto my E-Mail address.
Wow! I'm totally confused :)
Actually, I do have a question regarding Picks. Are there certain lines that are considered more favorable to operate over others?
--Mark
I've thought about that a long time -- what I'd pick if I were an operator. I think I'd go for the for the following reasons:
* Mostly el, so interesting scenery, and get to watch the weather :-) But the tunnel used is "historic."
* Great curves from QBP to HP.
* Opportunity to run express at times.
* Redbirds. (I know, they're not Slant-40s, but...).
* Trips that aren't too long, reducing fatigue and boredom.
* Great Asian food at the Main Street terminal!!
Plus, you'd catch a glimpse of Shea Stadium. And if Mark McGwire were a lefthanded hitter, one of his home runs might hit a train. Ken Singleton hit a shot that cleared the back fence in right field back in June of 1971, and Dave Kingman hit one off the team bus behind the back fence in left field once.
And we all know what route or routes Mr. Slant R-40 would pick.
I'd probably pick the A myself. Even without the R-10s, the express jaunt up CPW would be too good to pass up. I'd just hope I didn't wind up with a train of R-44s. Then there's the southbound runaway run from 59th to 42nd...
I've been working on the 7 this week - just somethings to keep in mind:
1.- Its not bad when the weather is nice, but on a day like today, its freezing out there.
2.- During your average 8 hour day, you make 5 roundtrips from Main St to TS - all day long, its back and forth. After3 or 4 trips you start to forget which way you're going.
3.- Those curves you like - so do the kids who throw rocks at the train on weekends. Back in Aug, I had three rockscome thru 3 seperate windows, each a good 3" in diameter. Luckily, no one got hurt.
4.- 5th Ave and GC. Heading to Main St, everyone is in the back where you can't see them as they come rushing down the stairs to get on the last train to Queens in their lifetime. (Those headlights in the tunnel are going someplace else).
I would have initially agreed with Todd, but your perspective is also very worthwhile. It's one thing to be a railfan operating it; it's another not to be. Would you then prefer a run like the "E" train - not too long, some express, some local .. enough to make it interesting but more, um, "climate controlled"?
--Mark
E train? Yawn! Give me the J any old day; I'll take any excuse to go through Broadway-East NY and Chambers St., which are two of my favorite stations.
Most try to pick lines near where they live or easy to get to from home. The midnite A is tough because you go "against the wall" all the way. some jobs for your first trip-and-a-half. Less popular jobs are ones that start after 5 PM because you finish very late & if you don't have a car, it may be tough to get home. The only Bronx line in the BMT/IND is the D, so you may have a big trip just to get to work. To many the R is depressing not only because you are underground all the way, but you get tortured when you see that ray of light just before you cross into the 11th St. cut. To many, the L is depressing (apologies Wayne), because you have many grade time signals which stay red until you proceed at the acceptable speed rather than the yellow with the S underneath. The A is really a good line but the R44's ruin it if you aren't a small, short legged, skinny person. There is very little room behind the console. Some will like or dislike a certain line because of their feelings about the equipment. I, myself, prefer cars which you operate with 2 hands except the R68/68A because the motorman's seat is hard as a rock. The R46 is an excellent operating piece of equipment if you like one hand operation. But what one person likes, somebody else dislikes.
Thanks for the positive comments on the R-46.....
> ... but the R44's ruin it if you aren't a small, short legged,
> skinny person.
Agreed ... even the cab door is narrow.
--Mark
we pick twice a year, like Bill in RTO (Rapid Transit Operations). We can pick in person, phone, or by mail. If we do not pick a job one will be selected for us "based on what we picked last time."
There are several kinds of jobs:
EXTRA- we call every day for the next work day's job. On our second day off we call for the following work days' job.
5 DAY-- we work that booth 5 days a week- we select when we want off based on availability.
RDO--(Regular Days Off)--they work the booths the 5 day people leave off when they are off. You can work five different booths or you can work a booth 2 days or 1 day--you select from available booths.They could be anywhere in the city.ie-Rockaway park Sunday and Monday, Jamaica Ctr Thursday, Times Square Friday. Jay Street Saturday.
VACATION RELIEF-- You work for someone who is on vacation.(You follow their schedule. Lets say I was RDO with job above and you worked my job you'd have the schedule shown.
Based on seniority you select AM, PM or Nights. Of courtse starting time within these three shifts vary.
[There are several kinds of jobs:
EXTRA- we call every day for the next work day's job. On our second day off we call for the following work days' job.
5 DAY-- we work that booth 5 days a week- we select when we want off based on availability.
RDO--(Regular Days Off)--they work the booths the 5 day people leave off when they are off. You can work five different booths or you can work a booth 2 days or 1 day--you select from available booths.They could be anywhere in the city.ie-Rockaway park Sunday and Monday, Jamaica Ctr Thursday, Times Square Friday. Jay Street Saturday.
VACATION RELIEF-- You work for someone who is on vacation.(You follow their schedule. Lets say I was RDO with job above and you worked my job you'd have the schedule shown.]
Are any of these types generally considered more or less desirable than the others, or is it usually a matter of personal choice?
While it is largely a personal choice, usually the very unbusy stations go to high seniority people.
Some agents like busy booths and others like slower booths. some want Saturday and Sunday so they pick vacation relief. Right now being low seniority I get the leftovers. Starting in 1/1999 I do get to go back to nights. I have the next to the last night extra job.
Like RTO we have extra/extra jobs for those just out of class or if their booth is closed for renovation or if a holiday falls on their regular work day-ex:this year Christmas is Friday. IF the agent works a booth that is closed on holidays such as inside a building that is closed or let;'s say broad Street on the J then they will be extra/extra.
I hope I answered your question. let me know if you'd like more info.
Thanks for the information!
Hi all Metrocard mavens,I need to know if the unlimited passes expire promptly at 12:00 midnight, or 12:01, or perhaps as late as 3A.M.on A.M.,theyhe day after it appears on the card.Arethey modeling the one day pass on this basis?Perhaps the station agents(formerly,token clerks)would like to tackle this one.
the passes expire **at midnight* on day 7 or day 30. The clock starts when the card is first used.
You buy a 7 day card at 10pm on Monday and use it for the first time at 11pm Monday. The clock has started. It will expire at midnight on Sunday.
I just saw the official bulletin on these passes.
here are the high points:
1- they'll look like any other Metrocard.
2- They'll be good for "up to 27 hours". If you start using it at 10am *Monday* it will expire 3am *tuesday* (substitute whatever day you want.
3- The booth can not add money to these card or fix any problems such as they stop working.
4- You must wait 18 (eighteen) minutes between uses.
5- They will **not** be sold in booths.
6- They will be sold in the MVM (Metocard Vending Machine) when the machines are installed in a particular station.
7- They will be sold at outside Metrocard sales outlets.
8-***they are good for ***o n e** person ****o n l y ***
**the above post, while based on official material is not official MTA or NYCT positions and not official press release***
[ 4- You must wait 18 (eighteen) minutes between uses. ]
Is this at one station or for the whole system? I know in Philly, they have a similar (30-minute?) timeout period, but it only applies only to that station, to prevent pass-backs. But if it applied to the whole system, and you didn't have to wait long for trains, you could get locked out of the system when you shouldn't...
[ 5- They will **not** be sold in booths. ]
This has been brought up several times here. But what is the MTA's reasoning again? Is it solely to avoid adding to workload to booth operators?
[ 8-***they are good for ***o n e** person ****o n l y *** ]
Isn't this just the 18-minute rule, or is there some additional restriction?
the 18 minutes: system wide. Let's say you rode the bus in front of your home and took it 3 blokcs to the train. You will have to wait 18 minutes. You board at 242 and magically appear at Rockaway Park 15 minutes later- yes, wait the 18 minutes!
The reason or not in booths: in one word- workload. Management and union agree on this. It is not easy in the booth!
The one person rule- this is a variant of the 18 minute rule. When the unlimited passes were announced some decided they would buy just one pass for their entire family. This is to stop that.
The only way to share a pass is if you are not using it.
I agree with you about the workload concept. When you take tokens vs. MetroCard, it takes longer to make a transaction especially if the card is not pre-encoded. But the public doesn't care about the workload, some think we all have the cushiest job in the world which is free from stress. But.....there will be complaints to the agents as to why don't YOU sell the card HERE. They public doesn't want to know that the MTA board said "No"; they will blame YOU. After all, doesn't the TA tell us "YOU are the TA's representatives to the public." If I were a token/MetroCard seller, I would be at a loss to justify this reasoning. True, the public complains to the workers, but only a fraction will write a letter to the TA/MTA.
I have not been to NYC recently. Is the Metrocard only sold by token agents or do they have vending machines that can sell them? If the token agents are overworked why don't they use vending machines in the subway stations that can take debit or credit cards.
Been noticing all this talk about the one-day pass. When is this supposed to happen?
January 1, 1999. The cards are on sale now why I don't know since they can't be used till New Years day and only available at newstands.
For an out-of-towner, can someone let me know exactly WHERE these daypasses will/are on sale??so on a day trip I dont spend half a day looking for a salespoint?? Thanx........
From the official brochure on the pass:
Theuy will be on sale at out of system vendors of metrocards including Hudson News,Gristede's, Sloan's, varied check casahing outlets, Time Square Visitor Center, Transit Musuem stores in Brooklyn and Grand Central and when they installed the newe MetroCard Vending Machines.
As of this time they will ***not*** be sold in the booth and the agent in the booth will not be able to fix problems with the cards. They are not refillable.
They expire at 3am on the day after first use. Example--you buy on 1/2/1999. You start using it at 9am on 1/3/1999. Your card expires at 2:59am on 1/4/1999 (yes, I did say 2:59am).
Now personal opinion: in talking with a number of other station agents we expect that at some point we expect that we will have to sell these cards. Rumor has it that the pre-coded (wrapped) $6 card will vanish at that time.
***disclaimer- while some info is based on official sources, opinions expressed in this post are my own and not those of MTA or NYCT***
Hi,everyone. If I may add my two cents,(or$4), it appears that the TA did not and probably will not eliminate the 18 minute station lockout ,and the existing bus corridor lockouts are also remaining.As such, it is not entirely an unlimited card.
The 18 minute feature is because someone got the idea of swiping one card for the whole group. They are working on changing the 18 minutes to just the same bus line or same station-please stay tuned.
However let me add this much- **if** a customer says that their card does not work we ask them to let us check their card. If they refuse we make them wait. if they agree we check the card on our computer. IF the computer shows they came from bus or another station we'll usuallu let them in the one time. If they tell us that they paid for someone else we make them pay (or if we see them swuiping someone else into the system.
In any organized society limitations have to exist. You dont go into a crowded movie and scream "fire" or hand a note to a bank teller "give me your money-this is a stickup." (you can but face the punishment that will be forthcoming.)
The cards are unlimited- we do not say 5 rides a day or 60 rides a week or ... All we say is 18 minutes between uses. In a perfect world we would not need a passback system since all would be honest and not try to defraud the system. Even my pass as an employee has a passback restriction and even I can not ride express bus or the SIRT train for free. Even I cant leave to buy a burger and come right back- I too have to wait for the elapsed time between uses (my limit is less than that but I wont say what is is.)
If the 18 minutes is a problem buy a regular card and use the bus/subway or subway/bus transfer feature. If you want to pay for friends buy them a pass or buy a fun pass for your friend.
It is funny- we do not gripe at the supermarket for restriction on cuopons but we do complain about the subways. Please give us the same courtesy.
[ The 18 minute feature is because someone got the idea of swiping one card for the whole group. They are working on changing the 18 minutes to just the same bus line or same station-please stay tuned. ]
First: great to hear they're working on fixing the 18-minute rule as far as one station/line vs. the whole system - it just makes sense!
Second: theoretically speaking - what's wrong with using one stored-fare card for a whole group? I was travelling in New York recently with a group of about 20 people. It would have been nice if we could have purchased just a few cards for all of us, instead of the group leader buying a gazillion tokens and handing them out.
The only problem might be congestion at the turnstiles, but if you eliminated the 18-minute rule for stored-fare cards, but kept it for time-based pases, the MTA would not have to worry about passbacks, because each person that used a stored-fare card would use up one fare on the card - just the way it should be...
[Second: theoretically speaking - what's wrong with using one stored-fare card for a whole group? I was travelling in New York recently with a group of about 20 people. It would have been nice if we could have purchased just a few cards for all of us, instead of the group leader buying a gazillion tokens and handing them out.]
There's nothing wrong with it. A stored-value card will allow up to four transfers. This means that up to four people can be swiped through in the subway at the same time, using the same card; if the four people then get on a bus, the card is dipped in the farebox ONCE, which cancels all four transfers.
I guess the group leader just didn't know this.
David
Sorry...didn't notice that your group included 20 people.
As long as it had enough money on it (easily enough accomplished at any "token" booth), the card could have been used to allow all 20 people into the system. Only 4 of them would have gotten free transfers to the bus system, though. It seems to me, though, that if your leader used tokens, a transfer to the bus system wasn't important to the group at the time.
David
No! One pay-per-ride (the traditional kind of card) can only be used to pay for four people.Attempt to pay for number 5 and the turnstile will display a message "transfer count exceeded" and prohibit further use for two hours. I know- I have had to explain this to customers who thought it toook their money. I explained that it is like at ATM- the bank limits the number of visits to an ATM per day and a maximum withdrawl-even if you have a million dollars in the bank.
for a group: The leader buys enough fare cards so there are no more than four people using one card.
I repeat- maximum of four people per card even if you do not transfer to the bus.
[ One pay-per-ride (the traditional kind of card) can only be used to pay for four people. Attempt to pay for number 5 and the turnstile will display a message "transfer count exceeded" and prohibit further use for two hours. ]
Thanks for the info - I didn't know you could do that using the transfer feature.
But then why do they place a limit at 4? And why the two-hour lockout? As I said originally, if you've paid for 20 fares on a card, I don't see why you can't use them all at once...
[why the two-hour lockout? ]
It's actually 2 hours and 18 minutes. The free transfer is meant to be used during one continuous ride. So that a person going to Kings Plaza, for example, would take the subway to Kings Highway, Brighton Line and then transfer for free to the bus. No if that person is coming from Staten Island or the North Bronx it may take up to 2 or so hours just to get to the Kings Highway station but that person still has a right to the free transfer. However, the MTA feels that after 2 hours and 18 minutes people would no longer be using the free transfer to augment a contiguous ride, instead they'd use the transfer for a free ride. For example, you live in Uptown and take the subway to work downtown. You work all day and then ride the bus back for free using the transfer. That's why it's not allowed.
[ ...However, the MTA feels that after 2 hours and 18 minutes people would no longer be using the free transfer to augment a contiguous ride, instead they'd use the transfer for a free ride.... ]
Wait - so you're saying that you could swipe four people in at one time using one stored-fare card and it would only subtract one fare from the card???
Yes. ONLY if you paid for four people at the bus or at the subway if you started on the subway.when you started four fares were removed.
When you start you swipe four times. Then you change for the bus (or from bus to subway.) Then you swipe (or dip in the bus) and the crad remembers you paid for four.
[ ...However, the MTA feels that after 2 hours and 18 minutes people would no longer be using the free transfer to augment a contiguous ride, instead they'd use the transfer for a free ride.... ]
Wait - so you're saying that you could swipe four people in at one time using one stored-fare card and it would only subtract one fare from the card???
I'm sorry I came into this late, but there seems to be confusion. The 2:18 interval is for the transfer priviledge of pay per ride cards. Since they can be used immediately (for up to four riders at four fares), the TA wants to limit the visit grandma for an hour and return for free (assuming a 1:00 running time to grandma).
There is only an 18 minute lockout on certain bus route combinations in Manhattan on the unlimited cards both day, 7 and 30 day versions. Here's the quote:
'Restriction: Once you have used an unlimited ride
card, you cannot use it again for 18 minutes at the
same or any other subway station, or on the same bus
route. Also, an unlimited ride card will not work again
for 18 minutes when you travel between Fifth Av and
Madison Av buses; Lexington Av and Third Av buses;
the M27 and M50; the M31 and M57; the M96 and
M106; the Bx40 and Bx42; and southbound and
northbound Bx1 and Bx2 buses. '
The MC general URL is:
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/metrocard/mcgtreng.htm
[However let me add this much- **if** a customer says that their card does not work we ask them to let us check their card. If they refuse we make them wait. if they agree we check the card on our computer. IF the computer shows they came from bus or another station we'll usuallu let them in the one time. If they tell us that they paid for someone else we make them pay (or if we see them swuiping someone else into the system. ]
But what about Please Swipe Again at this Turnstile fiasco.
If a customer has trouble we ask them to "let me check your card". IF the card checks out asd an unexpired fun pass, most station agents will go ahead and let the person in for free. if it is "just used" it depends on where it was used but even then most station agents will elt msot in for free.
If the customer refuses to let us check the card (to see what kind of card they have) then we will not let them in until they either manage to swipe correctly, or they jump(and then they are a fare beater and we challenge the customer to "pay your fare" [and the cops will be glad to give them a ticket]
Please if you are having problems with **any** metrocard do not go to anothet tunrstile. Instead, go to the booth, wait in line and talk to the station agent. Most of us will be quite friendly and will let you in if the card can be read. Please give us a chance to help you with the metrocard.
Hi Peg
It's 1999 now - so theoretically my next trip to NYC should allow me to use the $4.00 pass. Do you know if the Hudson News vendors at Pennsylvania Station will be selling them? If not, which vendors/stores at Penn will sell them? Also anyone at Atlantic Avenue in Brooklyn...
Thanks for clarifying the rules regarding the 18-minute rule. Here's my scenario: I get on 10:00 AM and ride around until 12 Noon. I get off to grab a smoke at Boro Hall. I get back on, swiping my card at 12:10. No problem since I first swiped at 10:00. I go one stop down the line to Lawrence Street to buy lunch at Blimpies. I can't re-enter until 12:28, correct?
Thanks,
Wayne
Yesterday I found that the newstand just outside of fare control at the World Trade Center PATH station sells the $4 FunPass MetroCards. I bought his last three :-)
Not withstanding Todd's success ... there was a item on one of the TV news shows that said they couldn't find anyone selling the Fun Pass. Specifically they went to Hudson News & the employee had no clue of when or if they were going to get the card.
Mr t__:^)
For those of you in the Brooklyn area, you can pick up the $4 Metrocard "funpass" at Shop Rite Of Brooklyn [where coiencidently I work] located at 1080 Mcdonald Avenue The store is located at the Avenue I Station on the "F" line. They are available at the customer service desk
Will they be on sale anywhere in the immediate vicinity of Jamaica Station? I.E. any of the shops/stores along Sutphin Boulevard between Archer and Jamaica Ave.?
Wayne
I think the bottom line is this: Until the TA/MTA comes to their senses and sell the fun pass in the stations, it will be hard for the newstands, etc. to keep up with the demand--they'll never have enough! People won't be too happy when these guys make up a new rule: "No one day fun pass without a purchase of another item from this store." LOL!
Well if that be the case, I'll be buying lots of Diet Pepsi for sure :o-)
PS I wish to e-mail you on another subject. May I?
Thank you,
Wayne L Whitehorne
Here's another Brooklyn location: the newstand on the corner of Ave U and Coney island Ave.
- Funny location for a "tourist pass."
Does anyone know where I might be able to get a one day pass outside of NYC? I live in West Virginia.
That's a real problem ... but you would think the suits at the TA would have thought of it ... after all if it's for tourist, why not provide a way for them to BUY them through a travel agent or over the phone ????
At this "private bus company" we sell the $30 and $120 cards over the phone. Just have you credit card ready or send a check (out-of-town they may give you a problem with a check ... I'm not in sales). On the LIRR the big blue machines take credit cards too. I think the new ATM style machines that are going in a subway station near you will also take credit cards ... but I'll let our Subway Agent friend confirm this.
P.S. We won't be selling the "Fun Pass", why because it would be a big money loosing proposition, i.e. staff to sell & mail them with NO profit to make up for that cost.
Mr t__:^)
The new MVMs (MetroCard Vending Machines) will take credit cards and ATM (Debit) cards. They will also give you directions in multiple languages. I have not yet been trained in these machines so i dont know yet what the final features are/will be. (yes, all station agents will receive training on what we will do with these machines which rumor has it will be just to assist from inside the booth- rumor says we wont fill or empty. More later after I get training. The first will go on-line on 1/25 at 59th st (1/2/3/9/A/B/C/D) and 68thst (4/5/6). More wil come in 4/1/1999 at station s including Sheepshead Bay (D/Q) and others ( I dont have a list in front of me- presumably we will be given a list in training.)
Now personal opinion: ***if*** these machines are as reliable (ha-ha_ as the first token vending machines in the 60s they will fail.but if they work like ATMs they wil work but here again many people still use humans at the bank and post office and NJT.
***disclaimer: While some info is based on official sources, this post is not the official opinion of MTA or NYCT.
Hi folks,
I've been reading your posts, and took notes. The scrappings and accidents have been noted and I sent email to webmaster Dave about what I read (in case he doesn't read them). In the future, if anyone has anything to report please send to webmaster Dave.
Most Sincerely,
Constantine Steffan
Does anyone out there have info re:numbering &@depot assign. for the hybrids? How about any technical info?
6350-6354 assigned to manhattanville. 6355-6359 yet to arrive.
Dear trolleybus, thanks for your help. Can you please enlighten me about bus 9900? How many in this series?Where assigned,etc?Thanks
9900 is at Manhattanville.
When the IND first opened in the 1930's, the letter designations on the trains were supposed to indicate the origin (Washington Heights, Concourse or Queens) and the Manhattan trunk line (8th Ave. or 6th Ave.) on which the train travelled. Single letters denoted expresses and double letters meant locals. I believe they were as follows (correct me if I'm wrong on any of these):
A, AA - Washington Heights - 8th Ave.
B, BB - Washington Heights - 6th Ave.
C, CC - Concourse - 8th Ave.
D, DD - Concourse - 6th Ave.
E, EE - Queens - 8th Ave.
F, FF - Queens - 6th Ave.
G, GG - Bklyn-Queens Crosstown
H, HH - Court St.
My question is: Prior to the Christie St. connection, which of these designations were actually used at one time or another, and which were never used? Was there ever, say, a DD or FF?
Bob A.
There was no 'G' or 'H' back then, all others correct. But not every letter designation was used in actual service.
I do not believe that the "DD" was ever used because the 6th Ave Subway, just like its El Predessor, mad all stops on 6th Ave.
The 6th Ave El was always a 2 track structure and for most of its existance, the subway had only two tracks in service and none of the stattions were ever constructed as local train stops only.
That was an interesting post about the "DD" running special as a local on the 8th Ave Line. The "CC' had always been the rush hour locals on the 8th Ave line, but I guess they had to run the "DD" as a non rush hour local on the 8th ave line. Is that true?
The "CC" terminal in the Bronx is Bedford Park.
The "DD" would have been 205th St with the "D".
The "C" train never ran when I rode the line in the 40's, 50's and 60's. So, I would have to assume the "C" terminal would have been Bedford Park also. The southern or Brooklyn terminals may have varied except for the "D" after the Culver connection, and then it was always Coney Island/the Stillwell Terminal.
Oh, I forgot, there may have never been a "B" train because of the lack of 6th Ave express only stations.
That's right. There never was a B service prior to the Chrystie St. connection. The BB came into being in 1940 along with the D and F lines when the 6th Ave. line opened.
The 6th Ave. line was supposed to be a four-track line right from the beginning. Why that didn't happen right away is another story. Prior to 1967, the express tracks at 34th St. were used by BB trains which terminated there during rush hours, and F trains when they didn't run to Broadway-Fafayette Sts. There is a maze of scissor switches between 34th and 42nd Sts., including TWO sets of scissor switches between the express tracks.
The express tracks were finshed and ready for use when the Chrystie St. connection opened in November of 1967. However, because the new 57th St. station wasn't quite ready yet, the express tracks were used only during rush hours at first by B and D trains. During other times, the D ran on the local tracks south of 34th St., then switched over between 34th and 42nd (and north of W. 4th St.); the B terminated at W. 4th St. during non-rush hours when it was running. The 57th St. station opened on July 1, 1968, at which time the B began terminating there at all times except rush hours. At the same time, D trains began running express along 6th Ave. at all times, while B trains ran express only during rush hours initially.
During the water main break in 1962, CC service was suspended, and the AA and BB swapped hours of operation while keeping the same terminals. Trains marked DD ran during non-rush hours via 8th Ave. and made all stops; D trains ran during rush hours along the same route (express in Bronx peak direction, but only between Tremont Ave. and 145th St.; express in Manhattan between 145th and 59th Sts.). C trains ran during rush hours between Bedford Park and 34th St.-6th Ave., running express along CPW.
There was a C express route from 1933 to 1940 which ran during, I believe, rush hours. It ran from 205th St. to Jay St.-Boro Hall and was dropped when the 6th Ave. line opened.
The water main diversion marked the only time the DD marking was ever used. The FF marking was never used.
Steve: How are you doing. The C 8th Avenue Express ran from 7/1/33 to 10/24/49.The Grand Concourse Line from 1940 to 1949 was served by the C,CC and D.
PS One of the R 1/9's at the TA Museum is signed up DD 6th Avenue Lcl. The other sign reads HH Fulton St Local.
Best Wishes Redbird
That's interesting about the old C route. My 1948 Hagstrom's IND map does not list the C. Then again, it has a few other inconsistencies such as the HH operating between Broadway-ENY and Court St. The Court St. stub is still shown even though the shuttle that served it ended operation in 1946.
They vary the sign settings on R-1 #100 and R-4 #484; I always see something different whenever I drop by the Museum. I did pose for a picture next to 100's sign box when it was signed up as an A.
P. S. I set my sign box for the emergency C route of 1962. The DD setting will be next.
Steve: I have found the Hagstom's Maps to be good,up to a point. Sometimes either because of space consideration or the editor's unfamiliarity with the system something is left out.The TA used to have this fault too as a mentioned about the early 1960 subway maps.
Either they didn't list certain services or they didn't tell you where the services stopped when they did. Please note that the R-16 on display has the post Chrystie St colored route signs. This was from the era when every route had a different color.
Regards,Redbird
I take it you're referring to R-16 #6387. It has a potpourri of signs ranging from original side destination curtains in all caps to the multicolored route curtains you alluded to. I'm pretty sure I saw route and destination curtains in one of its bulkheads, neither of which was original 1955 vintage. It would be nice to see it with at least one original BMT number curtain. The first train of R-16s I ever rode on was a #15 over the Williamsburg Bridge in September 1967.
Steve: How about the MM intended for the 6Av-Myrtle Service that never materialized. There were however one or two KK's that left 57 St-6 Av in the am rush and ran to Metropolitan Av to lay up I believe at Fresh Pond Yard. This was a holdover from the pre-Chrystie St days when a # 14 left Canal St in the am rush and also ran to Metropolitan. I think the sign curtain for the MM was blue but I'm not certain.
Redbird
Someone posted once that the MM sign had a dark green background similar to the CC.
Yesh, that wuz me: My Dad's 1970-vintage R32 curtain roll shows it in glorious green: MM
That curtain also includes: HH, JJ, and TT.
Wayne
Actually, the 14th St and 23rd St stations on the 6th Av line apparently were envisioned as local stations. Their tile color is the same as that for W. 4th St. There were expresses tracks coming into W. 4th St. from the south and into 34th St. from the north. It only took another 25 years to construct the connecting track!
Bob Sklar
The engineering problem was the H&M (PATH) line.
Well, almost... West 4th Street is darker (same as Bedford Park Blvd. and Carroll Street in Brooklyn) - 14th & 23rd are the same (almost) as Hoyt-Schermerhorn (maybe a shade darker in the middle). But they're all green nevertheless. 6th Avenue line follows the standard IND pattern - Red, Yellow (34th Street's former color), Green, Blue (B'way Lafayette's old light blue is gone - very dark blue now), Purple (some of these have faded to blue over time).
Wayne
According to Joe Cunningham, these stations can be made into exppress stations- there is enough room on the express level to add the stations hould they be desired/needed.
One other point: by the time the 6th Ave. subway opened in 1940, the 6th Ave. el had been dismantled. It ended service in December 1938, and demolition was completed in 1939.
There is a photo in Building the Independent Subway of a C train on the first day of service on the Concourse line. I'll have to check if the upper destination sign was set for 205th St. or Bedford Park.
Yes, that what I said, the 6th Ave subway replaced the 6th Ave El.
Question, In the interim, was there extra bus or trolley service on 6th Ave. It has always been a busy street.
After King Kong took down the structure outside the Hippodrome, it was all downhill for the 6th Ave El.
Another rememberance of the 6th Ave El, I saw a 20s post card showing Trinity Church and a good sized park next (south) to the church.
In the background was the El Station and structure.
Never having seen the 6th or 9th Avenue Els, there are probably some very interesting operational and engineering aspects of the lines.
The 9th Ave Line was the first iron (steel) elevated railway anywhere.
There was probably no extra bus service (NY Railways trolleys had stopped running in 1935, replaced by NYC Omnibus buses) because:
(1) the street surface was torn up for cut and cover construction;
(2) there were (still are) parallel subways on Broadway, 7th Ave., 8th Ave.
Also, remember that it was the Depression era and the IRT's Manahttan els were suffering from passenger losses due to the newer, faster, parallel, IND subway along 8th Ave. The removal of the 6th Ave. subway probably did not create the crush on the Lex IRT that resulted in 1955 when the 3rd Ave. El was removed without any replacement line.
This is just speculation based on some facts - I was not alive in 1938; in 1955 I was on the scene but still a youngster.
My grandfather took numerous photos of New York while visiting the U. S. in 1936; among them are two pictures of what appears to be the 6th Ave. el. He also photographed a train pulling into an el station as seen from the platform. This line, however, has three tracks while the 6th Ave. el had two.
Around 1965 or so, due to a water main break, the 6th Ave. line was closed between W. 4th St. and 34th St. for a week or more. (This was pre-Christie St.) During this period, the F train terminated at 34th St., the BB ran all day (168 St/Wash Hts to 34th St/6th Ave), the D train was retagged DD and ran local from 205th St. to Coney Island via 8th Ave., Houston St., and the Culver line. There was also a C train which ran rush hours express from 205 St - I don't remember where the south terminal was (maybe Hudson Terminal, now WTC).
-- Ed Sachs
Here's a gif of the poster (at the JoeKorNer hosted at quuxuum.org) describing the service provided during this water main break.
In 1934, the following "train desintation signal letters" were in use:
A - Washington Heights - Brooklyn - 8th Ave Express (I assume by the map, to Church Ave)
C - Bronx Concourse-8th Ave-Borough Hall, Brooklyn Express
CC - Bronx Concourse-8th Ave Local (I assume to Chambers St)
E - Queens-8th Ave-all local stops (in 1934, it only ran to Roosevelt Ave; I assume the Manhattan terminal is also Chambers St)
GG - Queens - Brooklyn Crosstown Line (in 9134, it ran only between Nassau Ave, Brooklyn and Queens Plaza, Queens.
In 1934, AA, B, BB, D, EE, F and HH didn't yet exist although they seemed to be planned for.
Kinda makes you wonder what the train names would have been if the IND second system were ever built.
--Mark
Mark:Great work on the 42 St article,very interesting. The AA did run from the opening of the IND 9/10/32 to the opening of the Concourse Line 7/1/33. It then went on a seven year sabbatical until the Sixth Av Subway opened on 12/15/40.
Redbird
"....while we work around the clock on a 24 hour basis."
Gotta love it....
-Hank
That C train which was used during the 1962 water main break terminated at 34th St.-6th Ave. I'm sure it seemed a bit odd to have a train marked as a C running via 6th Ave. and another train marked as a DD running via 8th Ave. Emergencies will do that. At least the R-1/9s had those signs available. BTW, I set my signbox for that unique C train: Concourse-Bedford Park and 34th St.
If I'm not mistaken, almost every letter of the alphabet was planned for the entire IND, Phase One and Phase Two routes combined.
I am pleased to report that someone finally made the New York connection with my license plates. This gentleman first said, "That must be the IND," then referenced Duke Ellington's Take the A train. He was a graduate of Columbia. I congratulated him for being the first person to identify my plates.
P. S. For those of you who didn't know, Dick O'Neill passed away in November. He played Frank Corrall in the original Pelham 1-2-3. My favorite line of his was, "Oh, nothing: a train is down, its radio's dead, the power's off, and it's dumped its load. Aside from that, everything's ginger peachy."
Bob>Here's a short list of IND services;
A 9/10/32 to the present
AA 9/10/32-7/1/33 and again 12/15/40-5/6/86 when it became the K
B 11/27/67 to present,never ran as an IND service
BB 12/15/40 to 11/24/67
C 7/1/33-10/24/49 and 12/7/62-12/24/62 due to a 6 Av watermain break
CC 7/1/33 to 5/6/86 when it was changed to the C, no relation to
the above.
D 12/15/40 to the present
DD 12/7/62-12/24/62 again for the watermain break
E 8/19/33 to the present
EE 4/37-6/30/37
F 12/15/40 to the present
FF never ran
GG 8/19/33 -5/6/86 changed to G
HH see next post.
Redbird
HH Court St Shuttle 4/9/36-6/1/46
HH Fulton St Local (used by R-1/9's for Rockaway Shuttles) Shuttle trains officially started carrying HH signs on 2/1/62 prior to that the would use shuttle or whatever.
Hope this helps
Redbird
In the late 1950s, the Rockaway Shuttles usually carried the 'A' train designation.
-- Ed Sachs
'G' and 'H' weren't part of the original IND lettering. One you left out is 'S,' 'Special,' used for the World's Fair in 1939-40 and later for various services (I rode a Yankee Stadium to 34th St-6th Avenue 'S' train in the 1950s, for example).
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Ed: I've heard differing versions of the World's Fair service.Did it operate as an S Shuttle between the World's Fair and Forest Hills? Did it operate as an extension of the GG between World's Fair and Smith-9 Sts? I've also heard that some E's ran to the Fair to at certain times.
Best Wishes,Redbird
GG trains served the World's Fair spur daytimes and evenings, extended from the normal terminal at 71st-Continental Ave. E trains also served the spur from 8:24 PM until 1:00 AM to carry homeward bound crowds, alternating with the GG. After leaving the Fair E trains stopped at normal express stops (Continental, Roosevelt, Queens Plaza) and terminated at Hudson Terminal (today's WTC).
Above information is from Frederick A. Kramer's book, Subway to the World's Fair.
Also note that the IND charged 10 cents for its World's Fair service. Exiting passengers had to pass through another 5 cent turnstile; boarding passengers paid 10 cents at the same turnstiles.
Andy:Thanks for the info.Ehat I wonder is this though.Since the GG served the Fair which made sense.Was there a second service designated S only running between the Fair and Forest Hills?
Merry Christmas,Redbird.
I don't think so. Kramer's book shows a picture of a pre-Fair opening test IND train with an "S" designation on the signboard, but there is no mention in the text of any shuttle between World's Fair and Forest Hills. Remember that the IND Queens Blvd line was new then (opened in 1936 as far as Union Turnpike; 1937 to 169th/Hillside), and didn't carry the mobs it carries today. With GG service extended during the Fair's run, there was no need for an additional shuttle. Remember that on the old IND sign curtains, "S" stood for "Special", not "Shuttle".
Andy Sparberg is probably correct about 1939-40 World's Fair service. I didn't recall the picture in Kramer's book being pre-opening, but I could see the photo with the 'S' in my mind's eye as I was typing. And 'S' was always 'Special,' as I mentioned in an earlier post, never 'Shuttle' (until the TA went on its binge of trying to get people to stop thinking of some trains as expresses and others as locals).
I could never understand who at the TA was so insensitive to World War II survivors living in the City as to have 'SS' trains running on the subway. They carefully avoided 'P' and 'PP' trains, apparently not to offend those squeamish about bodily functions.
Happy holidays.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Ed: People have been taking a P for many years at a variety of stations. I still wonder though if the S was used as a substitute for
the GG when the fair was open.Perhaps to make it more attractive to the public, that it was a "Special" train. Do you recall the short lived special on the GG line for the 1964-65 Fair. It ran non stop I believe from Hoyt to Roosevelt in the late morning. It only lasted about two weeks.Best Wishes for the Holidays.
Redbird
That makes sense Andy. I remember that the R-33WF and R-36WF cars had a reading for "World's Fair" and a front sign for "7 World's Fair". Of course these were only used for the two seasons that the fair was opened. Speaking of Kramer's book did you happen to notice that on page 19 thre are two photos of R-12's misidentified as World's Fair - Steinways.All the best,
Redbird.
I certainly did notice that error. The roof vents looked identical, but the front ends and doors are clearly different styles. I fondly remember the R12's - after years on the Flushing line they were intermingled with newer IRT equipment on all Broadway/7th and Lexington services. It was rare to find them in a solid train - except on the 3rd Ave. in its final Bronx years - and then only four cars long.
I remember seeing the Steinways on the 42d St. shuttle in the late 50's and early 60's - do you where else they migrated in their careers besides 42d St. and on the 3d Ave. (Bronx) elevated?
Best wishes for a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
During the late 50s and early 60s, the 1939 IRT WF Steinways appeared on the 7th Ave. Express trains (2 & 3 lines). As with the R-12s, R-14s, and R-15s in later years, they weren't used in solid trains, but were intermingled with older equipment (presumably older Steinway cars). It seemed to me that the WF cars were used at the ends of the trains to take advantage of the head-end roll signs (I distinctly recall seeing a 7th Ave. express pull into Times Square southbound with "New Lots" prominently displayed between the marker lights).
Even though these WF cars had head end roll signs, the side destination signs where of the metal-plate variety.
Right before their end, I can remember nine R-12, R-14 and R-15s grouped together on a single No. 3 train, the only time I can recall even that happening on the main line. It was about that time I think the TA began trying to put out trains consisting of, if not identical model cars at least ones that most closely matched each other.
I never saw a solid train of R-12s, R-14s, or even R-15s on the mainlines. In the case of the R-12s and R-14s, the reason I was given was they didn't want the conductors to have to move in and out of the cars to open and close the doors.
I would like to see the ORIGINAL letterings on the
NY subway, like the EE,HH,BB,TT,and the RR(as well as the
QJ)Nuff said.
Double letters were dropped in the mid 80s. The feeling was that it had gotten too confusing, since there were some double-lettered routes which ran express at some point, such as the QB. Double letters originally indicated local-only service. I must admit it still seems strange at times to see trains marked C, G, and R instead of CC, GG, and RR, all three of which, BTW, have always been local routes.
1) Why are there only 5 cars on diesel trains?
2) Why do some diesel trains deadhead to Jamaica or Points East, while some have diesels at both ends of the trains.
5 cars is a standard length, they can run up to 8.
If a train has head-end power, oe going to a terminal with a run-around track, it does not need a cab at the other end.
[5 cars is a standard length, they can run up to 8.]
Or even longer. Some Montauk trains in the summer have as many as 14 coaches. Before electrification of the Ronkonkoma line in the mid-1980s siphoned off much of its ridership, the Pt. Jefferson line sometimes had diesel trains with as many as 20 coaches.
Presumably the advent of the bilevel coaches will result in some shortening of the diesel consists. For example, the 6:53 from Patchogue to Long Island City now has four bilevel coaches, while it used to have five of the old single-levels.
Would anyone have infomation or recollections of the #13 14 St-Fulton St Exp and the #16 14 St Exp.I know that both these service used Multis but the #16 also would use AB's.Thanks again
Redbird.
The 14th St Fulton began in 1936 when the multis first came, and the 14th St exp began, I believe, when the connection to Canarsie opened in 1928. Both services ended in the late 50's, but a provision was made for it on R-27-38 signs with a single L in addition to LL. In the 1991 proposal, there was supposed to ba a new skip-stop service with a new "K" line (provided on R-110B front sign), and I had heard that it was earlier proposed as the "Y". With the Williamsburg Bridge closing this spring, I don't know why the idea hasn't been revived.
The real question is why didn't the 14th St-Eastern Line get a 3rd track like every other subway in the system? Without the 3rd track, an "express" won't get you much farther than the red light behind the next local. The G only has two tracks, but it is a short line from end to end, so expresses are clearly not needed. Everything else has three or four tracks, yes?
The G may be short, but it is one boring ride
The real reason for the G line not having a third track is that the line never enters Manhattan - it feeds passengers to Manhattan-bound trains at key points in Brooklyn and Queens. There is no predominant rush hour movement on the G except maybe along Queens Blvd SB in the AM peak and NB in the PM peak.
While the G and L are the only lines that are completely two track, many key segments of other lines have only two tracks, which limits the use of any third or fourth tracks for express service. Examples:
A from Howard Beach to both Rockaway terminals.
J from Eastern Parkway to Jamaica Center
M from Broadway/Myrtle to Metropolitan
#7 from Times Square to Queensboro Plaza
# 1 from 145th to Dyckman
#5 from E 180 to Dyre
#2/#5 Flatbush Branch from Rogers Jct to Flatbush Ave.
#2/#3 from 96th to 135th Sts.
How difficult would it be add an express track to the Jamaica-ENY line? It'll probably mean moving a lot of those storage containers, and finishing the express structure north of Alabama Avenue. Lord knows the J could use express service.
The cost would be prohibative, people would say "you may as well spend more money & put the line underground" and finally, between Alabama Ave. & Crescent St., there is no room. The remaining houses are too close to the 2 track structure as it is.
The E 180 St - Dyre Ave stretch is actually getting a third track (in fact, it may already be done). The primay purpose of the track is to acceptance test the R-142s; the secondary reason is to allow trains to bypass disabled trains on the current set of tracks. If you get a stall between Dyre and E 180 St, there's no escape route for trains behind the stall.
The Sea Beach Line is likewise going to have one set of express tracks torn up and the other one is going to become bi-directional. No dbout the R-143s will be tested there.
--Mark
(Apologies if this is a duplicate--the cat walked across the keyboard earlier so I don't know whether my earlier response was sent or not.)
FWIW, since RedbirdR33 asked for recollections, I rode both the 13 and 16 expresses in the 1950s. With good timing, there didn't have to be significant delays (no more than the mix of Flushing Expresses and Super Expresses on the '7'). And locals would be out of the way at Myrtle Avenue, so a bit of lost time, if any, could be made up east of Myrtle.
One part of express service that seems to get left out of all the discussions is passenger comfort--skipping six stations may not seem like much, but when you've ridden all the way from Lefferts or Canarsie, a reduction in the number of decelerations and accelerations would have been welcome. And the BMT as a company was noted for its attention to passengers and their comfort, something that partially survived under City operation of the subways but is just about completely gone in these days of obsessions with setting records for fare-box recovery. I doubt if automobile fees pay 65% of the costs of maintaining streets, policing, traffic lights, highway bond issues, and the like--why should transit be held to a higher standard than rubber-tired vehicles?
Passenger comfort, especially during non-rush hours, should be important--in some cities it is, such as Washington, where lower fares reflect the less frequent service in non-rush hours. Compare the 1955 Sea Beach (4, N) with today's--who would want to ride that from 59th Street to Times Square late at night, for example, when you could drive it in perhaps 40 minutes? Or Gun Hill Road to Bowling Green late at night--in the mid-1950s, you at least had express service from 125th Street south.
Bring back 14th Street expresses, Eighth Avenue expresses, Lexington Avenue expresses, Fourth Avenue expresses, Hillside Avenue expresses, and after that's done, start a program of 24-hour expresses in outlying areas like the three Bronx IRT routes. If Washington can run both ways on a single track on the Green to Red Line connector, so can the IRT!
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Ed:Thanks for the info.I agree with you that the skipping of even a few stops helps to raise the comfort level of the ride. It may not seem like much in terms of absolute time but it gives you a break from that constant starting and stopping motion every few minutes.A hypotethical passenger boarding at 149 St in the Bronx might enjoy his exp run to 42 St but the passengers coming from say 241 St have to wait at least a half hour or more before their trains run exp.Metro-North does the same thing to their expresses in the name of direct service. The explanation is that only about three minutes is added to the run, but once you add three or four stops the run for the long haul passengers in now fifteen minutes longers.
Regards,Redbird
You wrote, I doubt if automobiles fees pay more than 65%of the costs....--why should transit be held to a higher standard than rubber-tired vehicles?
I don't think transit should be held to a higher standard but as I am sure you realize it is. Did you notice lately that to fund the local share of a transit or commuter line many metropolitan areas require an election to raise taxes or float a bond issue before anything can be built. Needless to say voting a tax increase is very unpopular and the vast majority of these proposals get voted down. The latest one to bite the dust was revival of the Northwestern Pacific Railroad ROW as a commuter operation. When was the last time there was an election to raise taxes to fund a road?
I'm as much of a transit advocate as anyone, but let's not get carried away here. Drivers pay for the capital cost of the car, the car operator (themselves), insurance, maintenance, and repair. In short, compared to a bus drivers cover 100 percent of their cost.
Drivers do not pay for the road, the traffic signals, the police, and (often) parking, nor removal of trash from the waste bins on the street, nor the sidewalks they walk on at their destination. How would the subways do on an "auto equivalent basis." You'd subract the cost of maintaining the right of way and operating the signals from operating costs. Perhaps you could call the station's "public buildings" and subract that as well. But you'd have to add in the capital cost of buying the cars.
Of course, cars also pay gas taxes and tolls. But probably not enough to compensate for their use of scarce road space and air pollution. Leaving these controversial items aside, an "auto equivalent" accounting is the comparison most likely to sound fair to non-transit users. It would be useful politically -- wonder why no one calcualtes things that way.
My guess is that the subways could be breaking even on an "auto equivalent basis" right now, perhaps excluding the overnight hours. Buses fare less well -- they could be considered a "social service" item. Same with mass transit almost anywhere else.
Then again, the private vans break even on an "auto equivalent basis." I just read about a group that promotes a big increase in bus service -- a stop on every corner. They want more tax dollars -- perhaps we could cut the schools again, or levy a tax on rich people and businesses who move out of the city -- hard to collect, eh? Just think, all we have to do is allow it.
Interesting comment you make, about how the dollar vans break even on an auto equivalent basis while the city buses obviously don't. My suspicion is that the vans are *not* a guaranteed moneymaking idea. Sure, some van routes are highly profitable - but others are not. We don't hear about the unprofitable routes because the van operators just give up after a while and try elsewhere. There's none of the public outcry that would accompany a plan to cancel a city bus route.
Those vans make a profit by operating illegally, without insurance, required DOT inspections, overloaded, and in many cases without drivers licenses.
ANYONE can make a profit if they're not paying the costs associated with their businesses.
-Hank
As any Chicago L patron of 50's-80's could tell you skip stop AB works just fine and is much nicer than all stop. Sadly CTA recently is on a starvation diet imposed by suburbanites who are unwilling to pay for 'urban contemporary' transit.
Merry X-mas everyone
to Jr want to be a motorman and the rest of you merry men and women a merry christmas and a very happy new year to all and to all a good night.
Charlie Muller of the Bronx, New York City (The Big Apple)
Old topic, but it sparked a thought. The GM "fishbowls" owned by Five Mile Beach Bus in Wildwood (NJ) had bat wings. I believe there were 5 buses numbered in the 70-series, and they were T6H-4521's which were delivered in the '69-'70 period. Anybody know any more?
Does anyone have the answer to these question? Thanks for your help.
1. ___ Junction is the old intersection between the
LIRR mainline to Penn Station and the Rockaway
Division.
2. ____ Wye is the location south of Broad Channel
where the Rockaway Line divides to two lines.
3. ____ Station is the intersection of the Bay Ridge
Division and the SB Ry.
4. The ____ Line is the only line where fares were
reguarly collected by the NYCTA on the trains.
5. The ______ station (SIRT) contained the smallest
high level platform in the world.
6. The ____ transit yard contains a car float dock.
7. One could board a bus to _______ Point from the
Stillwell Ave. station.
8. Broad Channel and The ____ were railroad
stations within Jamaica Bay.
9. The ____ Tunnel is the only four track subaqueous
tunnel in the NYCTA.
10. The longest elevator shaft in the NYCTA is
located at ______ Station.
11. The rail interface between the national rail
network and the NYCTA is at _____.
12. The original name for the tunnel connecting the
Flushing Line with 42 Street is the _________Tunnel.
13. Besides the Rockaway Line, which other
NYCTA line(s) were, at one time, owned by the
LIRR?
14. For Lo-V and later rolling stock, to what does
the specification "SPC" refer?
15. What was the designation for the only regularly
scheduled, seasonal train to run on the Sea Beach
express tracks?
16. What was the designation for the only regularly
scheduled, non-seasonal train to run on the Sea
Beach express tracks?
PEOPLE
17. _______was chief engineer of the Public Service
Commission for the First District (this was in the days
when the PSC actually performed a public service).
18. ____ was the NYCTA chief engineer who died
on a subway station.
19. ____ was the first director of Special Inspections
for the IRT Co.
20. ____ called the then-mayor "Mayor Linsley."
21.Which champion bicyclist raced a LIRR train?
22. _____ Place in Brooklyn was named for a LIRR
president.
Stations and Electrification
23. What is the name of the SIRT stop named for a
Proctor and Gamble product?
24.What was unique about the Lackawanna's
catenary system of overhead power?
25. Which LIRR branch was abandoned four years
after it was electrified?
These are the ones I can answer:
1) Flying Junction?
4) Dyre Avenue Line
9) 63rd Street tunnel
10) 191St Station IRT
12) Steinway Tunnel
13) The Sea Beach Line?
17) William R. Wilcox
Please let me know how I did and the answers to the remaining questions.
Mark
22) Borum Place
25) Whitestone Branch
2.- Hemmels Wye
4.- Dyre Ave to E.180
7.- Norton's Point
10.- 181st St on the 1/9
12.- the Steinway tunnel
23.- Port Ivory
3.- 9th ave- although I'm pretty sure its actually in 39th St. Yard.
9.- Lexington Ave between 125 and the Bronx. However I don't know where the split is in relation to the river.
6.- I couldn't find one on my track maps.
1) Whitepot Junction
2) Hammels Wye
4) Dyre Avenue Line
6) 207th St
7) Rousses Point
9)63rd Street
10) 181 St
11) 36th St
12) Steinway
14) Series-Parallel Cotroller
20) Michael Quill
22) Hansen Place
Some good questions
1) Whitepot Underjump
2) Hammels Wye
4) Dyre Avenue Line
6) 207th St
7) Rousses Point
9)63rd Street
10) 181 St
11) 36th St
12) Steinway
14) Series-Parallel Cotroller
20) Michael Quill
22) Hansen Place
Some good questions
Well I can't answer ALL of these obviously but I will try and answer as many as I can...
1. WHITE POT
2. HAMMELS
3. PARKVILLE.
4. far rockaway?
5. ATLANTIC
6. 207th street? (it's next to the river)
7. NORTON'S point
8. the RAUNT (don't know where it might have gone)
9. 63rd Street
10. 191st Street
11. Linden Shops
12. STEINWAY
13.
14.
15. White Ball express
16. The "NX"
17.
20. QUILL
21. MACDONALD
22. hanson?
23. can't find one - OLD TOWN?
24.
25. The section of the LIRR that ran through Rosedale and Cedarhurst,
eventually joining the Far Rockaway branch
Wayne
White Ball Express? Did the Triplex units have such a sign? Just curious. Maybe Sunny Summer Sunday Special, if you like alliteration.
That title reminds me of a sneaker that Uniroyal/U. S. Rubber used to make, the Red Ball Jet. My father used to work for them, and he'd buy those sneakers for us.
The seasonal service was called "Franklin-Nassau," but with variations. On the Triplexes, there was a "Coney Island Express" sign which I never saw used, since Franklin-Nassau used Standards at least in the 1940s and 1950s.
Downstairs at Stillwell Avenue, the old train directory board had, as its first listing, "Sea Beach Express to Chambers Street Track A"--and it had a swing-down sign on hinges that read, "Not Running." The hinged sign was raised or lowered by a cord on a pulley so it could be changed from the floor level (sort of like a flagpole cord).
Sometimes the route sign on the trains just read "Nassau Street" or "Express," but they never used the 'Nassau Loop' signs.
As for 'White Ball Express,' that might have been a nickname (employee?) because Franklin Avenue service carried a metal white circle, maybe six inches across, on the buffer (is that what those gate-like things are called?) opposite the operator's position. I've never heard 'White Ball Express,' but that doesn't prove anything, and it certainly would make sense.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
"Nassau Street" makes sense. My BMT standard route curtain has that designation, along with "Express" and "Local", for that matter.
These look like the questions from Joe Korman's (JoeKor) subway quiz page.....
-Hank
Yep, I was right. These questions are from the New York Area rail and transit quiz, located http://home.earthlink.net/~joekor/railquiz.htm
-Hank
(WITHOUT cheating...I SWEAR!!)
1. White Pot Junction
2.Hammels Wye (1 & 2- see CHANGE AT OZONE PARK)
3-??
4.Dyre Ave-before the tie-in to the rest of the system...
5-??
6. 207th St-see pic in orig ed of UNDER THE SIDEWALKS...
7 Nortons Point
8--I forgot!
9 the Lenox Tubes of 1905!
10 191st on the "A"
11 Concourse Yard???
12 the Steinway Tunnels
13 part of the old Culver Line...i believe...
14 ???
15&16. the Sunday Summer Express
17-oooo I should know this......
18-???
19 Frank Hedley??
20 Mike Quill
21 Barney Oldfield??
22 Boreum Place
23 24 25-?????
Since everybody has missed #5, here's the answer: Wentworth, the last stop on the SIRT South Beach Line. The station had a small waiting shelter and was only long enough for the first door of a car - the smallest rapid transit station in the world!!
I don't want to duplicate the answers to the "easy" questions but I will take a stab at 21 and 24.
21. Mile a minute Murphy
24. It was 3000 Vdc.
I know that part of the answer to #25 is the branch connecting the Montauk and Port Jefferson lines.
Could you gives us some info of where to find the rest.
"Twas the night before Christmas and all through the yard,not a BU
was stirring,not even the Q. The R-10's were nestled,all snug in the barn, while out on the mainline even the Lo'V's were gone....."
Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night.
RedbirdR33
Twas the night before Christmas and all down the line
not a train was moving all because of mine
With seven dead motors and a guard light too
Grids are a glowing with a blown contact shoe
The R.C.I.s crowing with the tools on his back
and command centers asking why their railrods off track
But the passengers faces are all turning red
with visions of overtime dancing in my head
On work train, on shuttles, on with the TAs blight
Merry Christmas to all, and may your train run light.
Happy Holidays from "DAMAGE INCORPORATED"
December 25, 1998 12:40am
To all my friends and fellow transit and rail buffs I wish you all a very Merry and Joyous Christmas! May the spirit of the season be with you all and may your holiday be filled with peace and happiness.
Wayne /mrSlant||R40_____\
Thanks for all your contribtions and keeping this website more than just entertaining! All you guys and gals are experts in transit and it's really fun to hear everyone's views and news. After a day at work it's fun to log on and see what's happening! Merry XMAS to all!!!
Chuck Greene
How many of you wound up getting a subway-related item for Christmas? My sister got me a necktie with the Manhattan portion of an early 90s subway map reproduced.
Merry Christmas to all.
My question is, i see the Sperry Rail car parked in the Coney Island yard near McDonald every year for a few months or weeks at a time. what i was wondering, when does it operate, and does it ever leave the subway system, is it still owned and operated by Sperry??
I never have seen it go thru 36th onto the NYCH, and thats the only link to the national newtwork correct?
whats the stroy behind this?
Thanks
jay
Merry Christmas, Jayjay!
I don't know if this helps any, but I have a book called "Brooklyn's Waterfront Railways" -- have you heard of it? It has a picture of the Sperry Rail Service car at Bush Terminal in the summer of 1980. This may be a different car entirely, since it looks like a modified PCC type trolley car. It is on page 40 of the book. BTW, Jayjay, the book covers alot of the "busy years" of your line, NYCH as well as the now defunct BEDT and Atlantic Terminal railroads that fell victim to the decline in rail use during the early 80s.
Say, did you get a chance to see the posts I left in reply to your earlier postings? Check 'em out.
Have a Happy New Year to you and yours!
Doug aka BMTman
Thank you sir, have a happy new year as well. I have that book as well, damn fine book. I asked some guys at work about it as well, and they said that the Sperry car hasnt been thru in years.
Thanks
Jay
That is not true. The Sperry car does make the rounds after the PM rush. It does nothing for about 2 months, then after that it makes the rounds throughout the system. That takes about a week, then it lays up again. Next time it runs, I'll give a rundown on where it ran as to what I pick up on my radio. I have no idea what that old clunker does in relationship to what those 2 modern geomotry cars don't do.
Isn't the Sperry rail car actually an old New Haven rail bus? The rail bus was an idea of a New Haven chairman who believed that unused routes was track being wasted. He came up with the idea of using rail buses on lightly used lines but before the plan was put into effect he was ousted, and the plan was shelved. The rail buses built were sold off, some of them to Sperry. The rail bus, built by Mack, does look like a PCC car (or does a PCC car look like a Mack bus ;-)) and runs on a diesel or gasoline engine (I don't remember which) like a regular bus.
I think I actually saw it in action at 34th Street, and it was noisy as hell! Kind of like a loud roar.
There was one parked on a siding at Braintree station on the MBTA for awhile last year. I don't work out there anymore, so I haven't been by to see if it's been back.
Alas, the Sperry Railcar has seen better days. It's duties are now being performed by the Track Geometry Car (0TG01). Also designated as an R-59, it was built by Plasser American for $1,463,000 in 1984. For those who have the Revenue & Non-revenue Car Drawing book, it's drawing #235.
Hi, everyone. Happy holidays!!
In the spirit of the season, what does your New York City transit wish list contain, for 1999?
Mike Rothenberg
1. The 4400 (and 4398-4399) series cars stay on the "L".
2. 24/7 "A" express and "C" local, including Brooklyn.
3. Early completion of the 63rd St. connector so the Slants can make their triumphant return to Queens.
4. Ten more years of life for R32, R38, R40, R40M and R42.
5. At least some surviving Redbirds.
6. A "V" train, Continental to Church and an "F" express in Brooklyn
7. Express Service to 179th Street.
8. 24/7 "Q" service including Brighton Express or at the very least
weekend daytime service.
9. Weekday service on the Saturday before Christmas.
10. A way to make the VakTak stop spewing water all over the walls.
11. A plan to renovate Chambers Street BMT that includes restoration
of the original station design (like they did at Broad St.)
12. Completion of the renovations at 14th St./8th Avenue including an
original BMT-style tile band at the "L" station.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all!
Wayne
Rather simple list this year:
1) Railfan trip of BMT standards/Triplex or R-32s along Bay Ridge line (pulled by diesel) from the Brooklyn Army Terminal to the Linden or East New York shops.
2) A model railroad company to produce AFFORDABLE models of R-32, 38, 40/40M, and/or 44-46 cars. The market is out there for those cars if they want it.
I would also like to see a fan trip of all the trains in the Transit Museum -- this inlcudes the R-1/R-4/R-7 , the R-11/R-16/R-30 and the R-12/R-15/R-17/R-33 train sets.
They couldn't all be operated in the same train, obviously, but if they ran the trainsets (like I grouped them above) on different occasions, I don't see why it can't be done.
a commitment!!! to build the 2nd ave line asap (kinda like the freeway repair in LA after Northridge--get it done yesterday everyone else shut up!) and more express services more of thed time!
I'd like to see a long-term plan for the Manhattan Bridge other than shutting down two of the tracks back and forth. The Southern Division is going to be jacked up as long as all four tracks are not available. Work up a design for track connections from DeKalb to the Cranberry and Rutgers tunnels.
Happy Holidays to all!
Here's my wish list:
1) Begin construction on the Second Avenue subway, and COMPLETE it this time!
2) Replace the Manhattan Bridge.
3) Replace the Williamsburg Bridge.
4) Put only R-32s and R-40s on the N train!
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$???????????????
I'm interested in the political and financial dynamics of why the Lenox Ave. tunnel was repaired (what were the problems, cost, and responsible agency[ies?], and will it be successful), why the WillieB is slated to be repaired (problem[s], cost, responsible agency[ies], and will it be successful) and why the Manhattan Bridge has been under repair for so long without 4-track operation (problem[s]), cost so far and estimated to complete, responsible agency[s] and their positions, why it hasn't yet succeeded, whether it ever will succeed, contingency plans if all service on it must stop and who is [or should] be making them).
Thanks.
Mike Rothenberg
The Lenox Avenue Line structure is part of the New York City Transit System, which is operated by MTA. The Manhattan and Williamsburg Bridges' structures are not part of the New York City Transit System. The bridges are not under MTA's jurisdiction at all.
David
That's right, with two entities involved, its easy to point fingers and ignore the problem. That's also why the MTA got cut more in a budget crisis -- no one would know who to blame. Also, the working assumption is that the Manhattan Bridge will be repaired and then everything else will be OK. Changing that assumption would be expensive, so no one does it.
The TA has repaired the Lenox Ave Line several times. With the current state of the art in grouting technology, this time it will probably be successful and stop the water inflow.
The Manhattan and Williamsburg Bridges are the responsibility of NYC Dept of Transportation, Division of Bridges. The transit work on the Manhattan still has to be redesigned. The current contract on the Williamsburg will result in a major change to the elevated structure west of Marcy Ave station.
The current Williamsburg Bridge project will be replacing the Manhattan approach, the supports under the tracks across the entire bridge, the rails, and the signal system.
If anything, the difference between the work on the Manhattan and Williamsburg bridges is one is a study in how to do it right, and the other is how to screw it up really bad.
-Hank
Is it possible that when the Williamburg Bridge renovation is completed, in "record" time, that it might catalyze a review, by individuals, politicians, agencies, etc. as to the Manhattan Bridge problems, and finally lead to agencies taking responsibility to have to answer for the years, and megabucks, put into an unsuccessful project? Maybe B,D,N,Q (even R and M) riders could find a way to unite and show clout by demanding a replacement tunnel to connect Brooklyn to the Christie St. and Broadway lines, and end this "black hole" (or should I say "green hole"?) that's eating up so much money, without noticeable results?
By the way, does anyone know how many riders take the B, D and Q trains over the bridge (and, separately, how many take the N, R and M trains through the tunnel) on a weekday? If these are significant numbers and they are made public, then maybe grass-roots leadership might develop to force the responsible agency(ies) to accept the fact that they must act to get a replacement tunnel built, or (if it can really be done) get the bridge fixed once and for all.
If all train service on the Manhattan Bridge is forced to stop, who will point the fingers at who, as to failing to get the job done? And is anyone thinking about the train riders affected?
Mike Rothenberg
(How many riders use the bridges). The figures are in a report I have in the office. But how many of those riders are native born suburban whites who are eligible to vote and vote Republican? Not too many.
People are too shortsighted. Only the total loss of the bridge for an extended period will make people understand how much their economic prosperity is tied to subway service, and how much subway service is threatened by the deterioration of the bridge. No politician will get credit for solving a problem which no one is admitting to and which, therefore, does not exist.
Needless to say, if the Manhattan Bridge were to be closed to all subway traffic, it would severely cripple the entire Southern Division. You could probably forget about express service of any kind on the Brighton and 4th Ave. lines, and the B would most likely be reduced to a shuttle, along with possibly the R.
It's a sobering thought, indeed.
Not only would the Southern Division be impacted, but also the Sixth Av Subway which carries four lines - three of which use the bridge! The Broadway Line via Whitehall is at capacity with the current M, N, R setup. A complete closure would make Atlantic/Pacific a MAJOR transfer point as the already overcrowded IRT would have to pick up a lot of the slack.
The G could be cut back to Hoyt St. N and Q service could operate as a big loop through Stillwell, terminating at Atlantic Av. for a transfer to the IRT on the Q side. The B could be discontinued south of Broadway Lafayette with the M through routed to Stillwell at all times The D could be extended via the West 4th connection and the crossovers north of Jay to create a second Culver line running express between Jay and Church and running express to Kings Hwy with the prevailing traffic.
Not a pretty thought...
You can't terminate the G at Hoyt. No place to relay. They can relay past Bergen St. tho. But it is on the main line, so F service would be plugged.
The D could simply revert to its pre-Chrystie St. routing. All you would have to do is switch it over to the F tracks at W. 4th St. The Rutgers tunnel is underused as it is. The MTA should seriously consider putting in a connection from DeKalb to the Rutgers tunnel. It would definitely a difference on the Southern Division.
"(How many riders use the bridges). The figures are in a report I have in the office. But how many of those riders are native born suburban whites who are eligible to vote and vote Republican? Not too many."
Is politics THAT different in NYC than the rest of the country? I only know where I live, Chicago, but I have seen politicians go after the votes of -- and more to the point, bring capital improvements to the neighborhoods of -- city dwellers and non-whites.
The Green Line of the L was rebuilt at a cost of several hundred million dollars, even though it has relatively low ridership for a rapid transit line (higher than most bus lines but lower than some of the busiest routes) and is paralleled by other rapid transit lines, because it serves mostly minority neighborhoods and it would have been political suicide to shut the line down.
["(How many riders use the bridges). The figures are in a report I have in the office. But how many of those riders are native born suburban whites who are eligible to vote and vote Republican? Not too many."]
[The Green Line of the L was rebuilt at a cost of several hundred million dollars, even though it has relatively low ridership for a rapid transit line (higher than most bus lines but lower than some of the busiest routes) and is paralleled by other rapid transit lines, because it serves mostly minority neighborhoods and it would have been political suicide to shut the line down.]
You've just described the Franklin Avenue Shuttle in Brooklyn. After decades of neglect, the line is being rebuilt at high cost even though it has relatively low ridership and bus service is an adequate substitute (as is happening for the 18+ months the reconstruction will take). As with the L's Green Line, the Franklin Avenue Shuttle serves mainly minority areas, and closing it down entirely would make sense from an economic perspective but be disastrous politically.
(It would be suicide to shut down the line). Yes, it would be political suicide to make a decision to shut down a line. But the TA is a state operation (the city just provides the money), and (due to anti-Democratic ballot access rules and deal between Democrats and Republicans) state legislators serve until death or indictment. So they do not have to piss people off by making decisions. They make non-decisions.
A non-decision has been made that there is no need to replace the Manhattan Bridge. If the bridge continues to crack and rust after the latest fix, no politician will be blamed. "Useless bureaucrats" at the TA and city DOT will be blamed for not pointing out the problem. But the politicians have decided that the problem will not be pointed out.
A non-decision had previously been made to abandon the Franklin Ave shuttle, but people got wise and it did not work.
From NYCT Operations Planning's 1996 Cordon Count (the most recent I have available):
PASSENGER COUNTS FROM BROOKLYN TO MANHATTAN (SUBWAY)(24-hour weekday period)
Clark Street (#2/#3): 62,673
Borough Hall (#4/#5): 94,632
High Street (A/C): 100,645
York Street (F): 59,225
Court Street (M/N/R): 48,897
Bedford Avenue (L): 60,088
DeKalb Avenue (B*/D/Q): 88,603
Pacific Street (B*): 34,489
Marcy Avenue (J/M/Z): 54,155
Total: 603,407
*Indicates service that changes from express to local during the weekday
PASSENGER COUNTS FROM MANHATTAN TO BROOKLYN (SUBWAY) (24-hour weekday period)
Bowling Green (#4/#5): 77,365
Wall Street (#2/#3): 62,980
Broadway-Nassau (A/C): 97,683
East Broadway (F): 52,362
Whitehall Street (N/R): 45,504
Broad Street (M): 4,871
First Avenue (L): 63,694
Grand Street (B/D/Q): 116,505
Essex Street (J/M/Z): 41,977
Total: 562,931
In these counts, nearly 40k persons did not return to Brooklyn??? And on a more detailed note many seemed to vary their routing--28 k more easterly than westerly over Manh Br. Very Interesting. I would love to know how to access more of this data. Please advise. Thank You in advance.
The design of the Willy B leads to a stronger bridge. According to NY City engineers in charge of the Willy B, it is really three bridges joined together--the Bridge to Brooklyn (inner and outer), the Bridge to Manhattan (inner and outer), and the transit structure in the middle of the "two" roadway bridges.
The Manhattan Bridge has the transit structures on the outside of the bridge. According to NY City engineers in charge of the Manhattan Bridge this design causes flexing of the bridge, espeically when one train would enter from the Manhattan end on the "Broadway tracks" and another from the Brooklyn end on the "IND tracks".This same flex is happening when only the IND tracks are used. I toured the bridge with the transit museum. We walked acrossed the bridge and personally observed the large movement of the bridge which never had stiffening trusses.
Lenox is different- we do not have to deal with the city but only wirh transit structures.
Firstly, Happy Holidays to all SubTalk users, perhaps you could answer these few questions for me..???
To become a Motorman /Train operator with the NYCTA how long and what form does the training take???
How much is classroom based and how much is spent "on the road" train handling???
Also how is the performance of the new motorman monitored by line management???
.
I am currently a duty crew manager on the railroad system here in England and would like to compare operations in NYC with our current standards which closely monitor the new driver with regards to SPAD incidents (Signals Passed At Danger).
Thanks as usual for any replies,
Regards
Rob :^)
++ NOTE the term Motorman is used to describe male/female staff and NO discrimination is applied++
I heard recently but didn't get all the news that NYCT was looking into a sixth bus depot for Brooklyn. If you heard of everything about this new depot & where the MTA Real Estate plans to built it, please post it on the Subtalk.
Sincerely,
Mike
Supposedly turn over Jamaica Depot to Brooklyn Division.
Build a new jamaica Depot at Merrick and Springfiled Blvds in the old UPS building. The old Jamaica Depot would run the Queens-Brooklyn routes (q24,54,55,56,etc) thus not taking any pegs or personnel from Brooklyn Division.
Something like that
Forget about that happenning the TA dropped the ball there were to slow in closing the deal.
Before they build additional storage capacity in other boros, they NEED to build additional capacity on Staten Island. Before it was a want for a third depot. Now there is a pressing need.
-Hank
No doupt about that I hear its in the works possibly it would be a strictly express depot that would make a lot of sence. Also through B'klyn and Queens both are in need of new facilities as well preferbilly in in the south end and in on the Merrict corritor repectively. So in total three depot are needed in TA land, OA is ok because Colliseum is do to reopen with in the next two years.
Two years is being generous since construction is non-existent at Coliseum because of a pending lawsuit. I was up there two months ago and the construction equipment was in the same position as it was one month prior to that. I'll have to go up there and give an update later on.That was my favorite depot. It should have never been torn down.
I agree but I herad from some body tha was up there with in the last month or so that ground has broke.
I guess they should have just waited for the 'immenent' structural failure.
-Hank
I guess we should tear down any structure that is a historical landmark or is in the process of being named a landmark.
If it is as structurally unsound as the Coliseum was, yes. Landmark Status does not remove to obligation of structural maintainence. GFB that something collapsed there. FYI, Landmark status will not save a structurally unsound building from demolition.
-Hank
There is a building at Myrtle and Bushwick aves that is falling apart and is a landmark. There is a fence around the property. I believe Muslims used to live there.
Not knowing the property, I can't really comment. But if the city buildings department comes in and says "this building in in immenent danger of collapse/poses a safety hazard" then steps must be taken. There are about 10 stages of'disrepair' a build can be in that require vacate orders, 3 of them require immediate corrective action, and 1 of those 3 requires demolition as soon as feasible.
-Hank
That building I described is definitely in imminent danger of collapsing. I'm surprised nobody from the area has notified the buildings department.
You're taling about the house with one of the front porch support beams missing? I see this every day. I don't know what's the story with that. They should try to save this victorian brick house, and the one across the side street from it, which looks like it had some interior wrk done, but then stopped.
That's correct. The one with some interior work done had a realty companys sign attached to the front of it last I saw.
Still, no work has been done on it for years. It's just been sitting there like that, almost as long as I've been over here.
Best location for a 3rd SI depot would be in the South Avenue / Chelsea Road area. It is mostly industrial and commercial and affords quick access to the West Shore Expressway and the SI Expressway.
This is most likely talking about eh rebuilding or reopening of Crosstown, in Greenpoint. It should get the B61, 39, 43 and 48 (which it probably had before). To relieve the long Brooblyn-Queens routes, it could also take the Q54 and 59.
Andy. Here's is what I have on the assignment of the World's Fair-Steinway Motors.1938 to 1948 # 7. When the new cars started arriving they were transferred to the #6. They stayed here until late 1955 when the R-17's displaced them. 5653 to 5665 were then assigned to the 42 St Shuttle while the remainder went to the #2 7 Avenue Exp. They stayed there until Feb 1962 when they were transferred to the 3 Avenue El where they stayed, of course, until April,1973.
Hope this helps,best wishes Redbird
Correction: The W. F. cars remained on the 3rd Ave el until 9/69,(with other low V's), when the R12/R14 took their place. Indeed the 3rd ave el closed in 4/73. They were in extremely sad shape when i rode in them in the fall of 1968.
My own experience with WF Low-V is limited to one trip - May 24, 1969. They were in no worse condition than the R6/7/9 cars were. Interesting bunch of cars - they had older Low-Vs mixed in the middle of the trains. The roof line was like the R12 but they had fans like the R6.
Big fat fan motor housings - I believe they were Westinghouse. I liked that front end window with the divider. Signs where set or visible read "Shuttle". When I rode the 3rd Avenue El for the last time on April 16, 1971, the R12s had taken over. During one of my 1970 trips to 207th Street there were a bunch of WF Lo-V there that had been converted to work motors, with the number "3" prefixing their regular 56xx (or 57xx - did see 5701 there) number.
Wayne
Wayne The last day of service for the old IRT cars was Nov 3 1969.The
numbers for the last train were 5641-5670-5353-5636-5676. I rode the el on Oct 18,1969 when I was home on leave. There were only trhee trains of old cars in service that day.Here's the numbers
5679-5684-5340-5658-5466
5669-5483-5356-5666-5655
5641-5670-5636-5353-5676
Regards,Redbird
There are photos in Gotham Turnstiles taken in late 1968 of the Lo-Vs on the 3rd Ave. el. The World's Fair Lo-Vs were apparently always intermixed with other Steinway Lo-Vs. You can see car #5674 in several photos; that's the car used for interior scenes in The Incident.
Joel Your right,but the last day was Nov 3,1969. I was thinking of
the end of service.
Regards,Redbird
I was up late Christmas eve and could have sworn I saw a jolly fat guy in a red suit in the motorman's cab of an R-30 Redbird over at Coney Island. It looked like it was filled with wrapped presents up and above the windows. And the car was being pulled by -- get this -- a team of reindeer! (I gotta lay off the spiked eggnog!)
Happy Holidays to all!
And you get a special gift for being #20000
Are you sure it wasn't a dream? I've had some weird subway dreams myself, but Santa has never appeared in any of them.
Does any have any updates of Bus Routes ,in the West Farms area involved the BX09,Q44 etc
Thank you
Steve
BTW,this is due to construction
Sorry,,for the 2 postings
Does anyone have a complete Bus Roster of the TA and all other pre==Transit Authority Operators in the NYC Area.
I am looking for the following--
Fleet Numbers'
Mfgr
Model Numbers
Dates put in service
thank you
Steve
Does anyone have any detailed routing info on the Bus Shuttle connnecting MarcyHewes and the L Train Station
Thank you
Steve
yes . firist of all if there is one it will run from Bridge Plaze down B'way and Betford Ave North and Driggs Ave South. M trains will terminate at Marcy Ave and there will be an temparary island platform bilt with extension and stairs which will drop Passengers right at the plaza.
No. I've heard that that extension has been dropped.
Where are car rosters available for these two systems?
Andy: This is a correction to last night's post. Joel noticied it. The last train of old cars (read IRT pre-war) ran on the 3 Avenue El
on Nov 3,1969, which makes Oct 69 the last full month that they were in service.When I said April 73 I was thinking of that ERA Fantrip using all six museum cars. I think that may have been the only time the six museum cars ran together.4902 was later sent to Court St and one of the motors is now at Branford I believe. All six cars never actually made it to the El as one became BO and was set out at Westchester Yard.
Regards,Redbird
Dear friends:When the R-11's were assigned to the Franklin Av Shuttle they usually ran in two three car trains and a third train of one R-11 and a pair of R-32's. Does anyone know if there were ever three-3 cars trains of R-11's in operation at the same time.I was overseas at the time this was going on so my info is spotty. Thanks in advance
Redbird
The R-11 was incompatible with any other equipment when first built in 1949. Therefore, the R-11s ran only with each other. In 1964-65 the ten cars were overhauled and the cars became R-34s although they were still referred to as R-11s. The original intent was to make them compatible with the R-32s purchased for the BMT division. However,by the time they were scrapped, I vaguely remember them in 3 car consists on the franklin Shuttle, the R-32s returned to mainline duty.
I don't remember them being in a 3 car consist either. Whenever they ran in Franklin shuttle service, I remember 1 R11/34 with a pair of R27/30 or R32. This may have been done for safety reasons as to avoid it being necessary for the conductor to have to climb the steps to operate the doors. Not because of falling thru the cars, but avoiding lowlifes who wanted to intentionally injure the conductor while he was doing his job. I remember them running on the Culver shuttle, but I forget it was a solid train or being mixed with other models. They ran sometimes on the B as an 8 car train in the early days of Chrystie St. between Stillwell & W4th St./168 St. with #3 signs. They also ran as a 6 car train on the Canarsie Line with a #16 sign. I believe there are pictures of these cars in service elsewhere on this web site. Also, I believe there is 8018 pictured with collision damage in ENYD. I do not know if that was before or after R34 conversion.
Bill. They did indeed run in three car trains, usually though only two trains were solid R-11's.THe third train was usualll mixed as you say with an R-11 and an R-32. I wonder though in later years if all ten R-11's ever operated in a together in a single train.
Thanks, Redbird
It's possible that the R-11s could have operated on the Brighton line as a solid train, but of 8 cars if the platforms weren't yet long enough to accommodate 10-car trains. New York Subway Cars has a photo of the R-11s on the B in 1968 with #3 signs and the destination sign marked, "57th St.-Manhatt'n via Bridge". Gotham Turnstiles has a photo of one R-11 coupled to a pair of R-32s at Franklin Ave.-Fulton St. One R-11 was modified to run in m. u. with later equipment after R-16 #6494 picked a fight with a BMT standard. Bad decision.
Even though the R-11s had trigger boxes, they had electric door engines. The R-10s were the last cars to have air-operated doors.
Steve:Thank you. The R-11's ran on the Franklin both in solid trains and mixed with R-32's.I never recall seeing all three train sets made up of R-11's though. Usally there were two solid trains of R-11's and the third was mixed one R-11 and two R-32.
Regards,Redbird
You're right RedbirdR33, I recall that mixed configuration too toward the end of the Franklin run of the R-11s. I in my remember during my high school days walking between the cars and noticing the stark design differences in the ends of the 11 and 32s.
In the 1998 NYC Subways Calandar, the photo for the month of February clearly shows a Franklin Shuttle of at least 2 R-11s at the Botanical Gardens Station. Photo dated 12/65
I am requesting your assistance in obtaining Detailed routing materials on this carrier
-----every street
=====every turnaround
-----every short turn
Thank you
Please call me,if you wish
Steve
914 668 9218
The Queensborough Bridge Railway last ran in either late 1956 or early 1957.However the Green Line Q 60 buses continued to use the underground terminal on the Manhattan end for some time after that. I remember riding a bus from Calvary Cemetary accross the bridge into the underground terminal. The trolley tracks were still visible. This may have been in 57-58 or 59. Would anyone have information regarding how long the buses continued to use the trolley terminal after the end of trolley service. Thanks in advance for this and previous info.
Redbird
The Queensboro Bridge trolley made its last run on April 7, 1957. My recollection is that the old underground terminal below the bridge entrance was never used again by any transit vehicles. Remember, the bridge trolley was a Steinway/Queens route as the Q101 bus still is - and the Q101 never used the old terminal. The Q60 is a Green Bus route and would not use the old terminal if the Q101 did not. What you probably remember on the Q60 is exiting the bridge along the north side and making a dogleg turn onto 60th Street just outside the old terminal entrance. I don't believe the Q60 buses have ever used the old terminal. For many years they ended their runs on 60th Street just east of Second Ave, just outside the terminal.
Where is / was the terminal, and does it even exist satill? Was that funny structure by the bridge the entrance / exit to the terminal? Also, I've heard there's a trolley terminal adjacent to some station on the J/Z/M in manhattan in plain view. Does anyone have any details on this???
Yes that would be at the Essex Street station, on the south side of the Queens-bound track. It hasn't been used in many many years but it is still there.
Wayne
As a matter of fact, the trolley tracks, and supposedly the overhead wires, are still in place.
A few of the stairways should still be there, but all the kiosks have been demolished except one, and the actual opening to the stairway has been covered with cement. When they were rebuilding the entrances to the bridge years ago you could actually look right into the terminal and see the cobblestones, tracks and stairways while riding on the tramway. Quite a view!
The QB Bridge terminal was located between 59th and 60th Streets on the south side of 2nd Ave., directly under the vehicle entrance to the lower roadway. The kioks still visible there were the entrance/exit to the terminal.
The other trolley terminal you allude to is at Essex Street Staion (under Delancey Street) of the J/M/Z trains. It was a turnaround for BMT (later NYC Board of Transportation) trolleys that crossed the Williamsburgh Bridge from various Brooklyn routes. It was closed in December 1948 when buses took over.
Too bad you didn't ask about this two months ago. On December 6
I led a NYC Transit Museum tour that viewed this terminal. The tour will be run again in 1999 - stay in touch with the Transit Museum for details. The date is not final yet.
About 3 PM today I got off a soutbound "A" train at 181st Street to take pictures, figuring I'd get the next "A" ten minutes later. I saw a northbound "A" being held in the station. Five minutes or so later they ordered it out of service, put up the "Not In Service" signs etc. and just sat there. NO southbound "A" came. Another ten minutes later (about 3:30) they announced that the northbound "A" being held (and still marked out of service) would be heading southbound; they signed it up Lefferts and I headed across to board. Wonder what happened up the line?
Wayne
Maybe there was a power off situation north of 181st or switch problem at 207st terminal.
According to what I was told, there was a police action of some sort at that time.....
Good Lord, I just missed it (whatever it was)!
Thanks; I was just curious. I didn't encounter any other problems yesterday.
Wayne
I did some checking and found the following was the actual cause of the delay. A southbound A train had an emergency brake application at 200th St. Without going into too much detail, apparently the Train Service Supervisor who responded to the incident found problems with the way the crew performed their duties. In addition,the train operator claimed an injuty. The crew was removed from the train, which was sent to the yard for inspection.
Well, I thank you for that information - I shudder to think of an R44 going into EB - there's enough loose stuff in them as it is.
Anyway it's fortunate that the yard's right there. Hope the T.O. wasn't hurt too badly. BTW the five pictures I took at 181st came out quite nicely - one of them an overhead shot from the catwalk and another looking down the same walkway. Interesting station, 181st Street. I had no idea that the walkway was there. Before Sat. I had never gotten off there. You never know what gems you'll find down there.
i remembered when the first r44 came out,my dad was a dispatcher at lefferts blvd.he always said they can never match up to the r10,what a waste of metal.to this day i kinda agree with him.the r46 is much
better model.
Your dad was absolutely right - nothing can top the R-10s. They were one-of-a-kind.
Just wondering if the R110's are still running...and if so, where? Is the R110a running on the #5? Is the R110B done with its R143 testing on the N, and now back on the C? Please, if anyone has had R110 "sightings" recently, info would be appreciated.Thanks :)-Nick
as of x-mas eve they ere on 27 tk in 207 yard two units the third is in the insp shop. from recent sightings since only two units are serviceable th run on the c. the third unit inthe barn looks to be ready soon but thats just aguess based on observation, im PM and the tech's all go home early.
Well, it's great to be back in NYC! I drove down on the 23rd and bought myself a 7-day pass. I have to use it three more times to make it worthwhile.
Now, for my question: My sister just found a really nice apartment in Inwod, near Dyckman St on the A. She works by the Morrison-Soundview stop on the 6. I figured a few possible ways for her to get to work would be the following:
1. A to 125th St, M60, 100, 101, or Bx15 to Lexington Ave, and catch the 6 Northbound;
2. A to 42nd St, Shuttle to Grand Central, and 6 Northbound;
3. Bx12 to Pelham Bay Park and catch the 6 Southbound. For this option, will she have to change at Parkchester for a local 6?
Any other ideas? Thanks!
If it were my commute I would choose option "A" unless the weather was bad, then I would choose option "B". Then there's always the scenic route: BX7 to 225th St then BX9 to Jerome Ave then #4 to 125th Street and then #6 to Morrison/Soundview. Isn't there a bus (or buses) that go to Parkchester?
Wayne
If she goes wih the first option, will a monthly metrocard work, or will she get tripped up with the 18 minute rule? Or does that not apply to monthly cards?
Assuming she gets on the "A" at 7:30: she rides to 125th Street (about 15 minutes), then gets a "xfer-ok" to the crosstown bus, which will take about twelve minutes. It's now about 8:00. She then boards the Lex Subway, outside the 18-minute window. Yes, the 18-minute window would apply but the free transfer would negate it. If she goes all the way downtown to transfer (at 42nd Street, she could take the "E" over to 51st Street, but it would take longer to ride up on the #6)
it wouldn't be applicable because she would be staying on the subway all the way.
Wayne
Does anyone know exactly how the R44's reached 81 MPH ? Cause the feild shunt coils couldn't reduce the motor feilds that much, could they? Or was it the motors were configured in full paralell? ie; 600 VDC across each armature. I found a wabco manual for the R44 cab signals in the summer of 86 and it explained a lot but not this, and ive always been really curious, when I worked @ LIRR I learned their propulsion, but never made the conceptual leap between the two, Steve, I know youre up on this maybe you know ? Cause it makes my brain itch every time I cross the flats.
The R44 and R46 use 300V motors. The high balancing speed reported
in that early 1970s test on the LIRR is partly attributable to
the higher trolley voltage (750 vs 600) used there. Another factor
is gearing. R44/46 used 117:23 reduction. Earlier SMEE cars used
123:17. The smaller reduction factor means the axle spins faster
relative to the armature.
Oddly, I thought that during the R44 and R46 GOH programs, the
gearing was changed to a higher reduction for lower top-end speed
and better acceleration, but the data I have here do not support
that memory.
Actually, according to what I've been told, the gearing was changed during GOH but I don't have the documentation handy to support it. However, it was not the gear ratio and higher track voltage alone that lead to the high speeds. There was a difference in the field shunting coils which lead to those speeds and the speeds attained by the R-46 out in Colorado on the former DOT test track.
The only docs I had handy were in Geno's book. It lists
both pre and post GOH R44 and R46 at 117:23 gearing. Of
course, there are other technical errors so I don't necessarily
trust it. My recollection from the good ole days of the 46
was that the cars were initially geared for higher top end and
lower acceleration. If I recall, the top notch on the master
controller in regulated speed mode was 75MPH...Erik Dina could
tell us for sure unless he no longer has the artifact he used to :)
All that high-speed stuff was designed for 2 Ave and maybe
future trackage rights over the Long Island, neither of which came
to pass. I distinctly recall that the pre-GOH R44 and R46 cars
did not accelerate as well as their SMEE counterparts, but once
they got going...wow. Much like today's field shunt mods, the
groups were modified to prevent the cars from reaching their
rated balancing speed of 75MPH. I don't have any drawings on
the pre-GOH cars, so maybe you could tell me what the trainlines
looked like. I remember once in a rare while a train would
get out which could be switched into WAYSIDE REGULATED mode and
it certainly did move. Once the cars came back from GOH, they
were effectively SMEEd. They accelerated better, but didn't have
the same top-end. OTOH, no more loss of P wire.
Thanks guys I knew some one would hav some answers. I remember the R46's used to have a circuit breaker on the off side of the cab for the cab signal and reglated speed controller but by the time I was old enough to start getting involved, the componenents were already startig to disappear one by one. The R44 console (my CONSOLATION prize) that I salvaged during the westcode modification has controller points of 0MPH_COAST 3MPH-SWITCH 10-SERIES 15MPH 25 -PARALLEL 50MPH and 70 MPH, but thats going frommemory, because the console is put away until I can build another layout. Great thread so if anyone wants to continue.............
By the time I came to the NYCT, the ATO had been removed from the R-46 (Operationally). That 'circuit breaker' was referred to as the 'Transfer Switch' and, as I recall it, would engage an alternate P-Wire Generator in case of a failure.
Could somebody tell me the difference between a master tower and a auxilary tower? Are any of these towers on a 24 hour operation?
While at the 28th St. station on the east side a few nights ago, I noticed evidence of a closed crossunder. Does anyone know how long the crossunder has been closed for, and why it was closed?
There was one at Astor Place, too. I seem to remember it was closed in 1983 or thereabouts for security reasons, if my memory serves me correctly. Perhaps the two closings coincided?
A lot of crossunders, entrances, hallways, etc. were closed in late 1992 after a woman was raped in the passageway that ran under 6th Ave. from 36 to 40th streets. I don't know for a fact that either of these crossunders were closed then, but an educated guess is "probably."
--mhg
I think both were closed about the time the station renovations were begun.
The station they need to open an underpass up at is Bleeker Street, so B,D, F ad Q passengers can finally intermingle with those on the uptown No. 6.
Agreed. That underpass is one of the top four or five projects on the MTA's list of things to do one day (along with the 2nd Ave. Subway and other things). The biggest concern is safety, for two reasons. First, since the uptown and downtown 6 platforms are not entirely aligned, the passageway would have to be in the middle of the downtown platform to get to the bottom of the uptown platform. This makes for a very long walk from the parts of the station that have people in them. The other safety issue is that the downtown platform is very narrow, even by IRT standards, and can't accomodate a lot of traffic. It's too bad, really, it would be a great transfer.
--mhg
For those who don't know what the Floral Park Station looks like. There are 3 platforms and I believe 4 tracks. 2 on one side, 2 on the other. 2 side platforms and 1 island platforms. The station is used exclusively by the Hempstead Branch on one side. For both East and Westbound. Yet on the other side of the island platform, the two tracks and platforms are served by the main line. I have never seen a main line train stop there. Do they ever?
One or two AM (think its two) and one PM train stop there; they're Huntington branch trains. Don't have my Blue timetable with me so I can't give you the times. I think one's 8:21am.
BTW F.P. station was elevated in 1961. The same design as Freeport.
My Dad used it all the time going back and forth from Intertype in Brooklyn (before he joined the NYCT).
Wayne
I believe that Bellerose station (just west of Floral Park) similarly has limited service from the main line as opposed to the Hempstead line. One of the people who gets on with me at Medford commutes to Bellerose. He gets the 6:57 Brooklyn train at Ronkonkoma, gets off at Mineola, and switches to another train for Bellerose. Service must be limited because I've heard him say that missing the right connection at Ronkonkoma or Mineola is a major problem.
I vaguely remember that there was one MU that went to East Williston (there IS third rail and a high platform there) and that train also made a stop at Floral Park (platform A and north side platform B) but I don't know whether they're still running this one. If they were it would be on the Oyster Bay timetable. I don't think there's a crossover to Bellerose; the switches are all west of there. Maybe your friend commuted from FP station (it isn't all that far away; less than a mile) itself.
Wayne (a former denizen of the Village of Floral Park AND of FP Queens Co.)
Bellerose has only one island platform for the Hempstead Branch. Therefore, any service from bellerose for the Main Line would be for the more athletic passengers...
[Bellerose has only one island platform for the Hempstead Branch. Therefore, any service from bellerose for the Main Line would be for the more athletic passengers...]
Now that I think more about it, the rider said that he worked in Bellerose and got a connecting train (from Medford/Ronkonkoma) at Mineola. That's not quite the same as saying that he commuted to the Bellerose station. As Wayne suggested, he might use Floral Park.
if my momery serves me right only hempstead branch trains stop there
not any other east bound trains do.
Ok...I know of one staation that's nearby (actualy close to Mineola), where I believe only ONE train, in the morning, stops at. Anyone else know the train station I'm, thinking of?
Hint: it's the only station on that line that can offer a direct trip to NYC
Yes - that's East Williston. Think I may have mentioned it elsewhere.
For a minute I was thinking "Clinton Road" but thought better of it. :o>
Thanks
Wayne
To clear up some items on this and subsequent postings on the subject:
Three LIRR weekday main line trains stop at Floral Park. Two are eastbound and use the middle platform that is shared with WB Hempstead Branch trains:
6:21 AM Tr #1608 to Huntington
8:34 AM Tr #1612 to Huntington
One is a westbound peak train, 7:40 AM to Penn Station, Tr #1501. It uses the north side platform. This train originates in East Williston, the subject of one of the postings. It is the only MU that serves East Williston (there is no comparable EB train), originating there at 7:28 AM. Note that all Oyster Bay Branch diesels stop at East Williston as well. Therefore, East Williston has only one MU train stopping each day but a multitude of diesels as well.
There's a fourth. The 4:53AM train from Flatbush to Huntington stops at Floral Park.
On another note, I did notice one odd train in the schedule. The 6:00 AM train from Farmingdale to Penn stops at Bethpage, Hicksville, Queens Village and then Jamaica.
Over the past few years, I have noticed in the schedules a few main line trains stopping at Queens Village and sometimes Hollis. This has generally occurred when the Main Line's Brooklyn connection at Jamaica was a train originating in Hempstead. Having the main line train stop at Queens Village and Hollis prevented a delay by having one or both trains wait to cross each other west of Bellerose. The train noted above is the only one I could find in the current schedules.
What are all of those tracks that go up the west side of manhattan to westchester?
Those Track Connect Penn Station to the Metro North Hudson Division,used by AMTRAK Albany Bound Trains
Steve
Those tracks once ran via elevated structure from the yards west of Penn Station to a freight terminal near where the Holland Tunnel entrance is now located. Over time the line was cut back to about where Bank Street is now located. Freight service lasted until the early 1980s, with meat packing plants in the Gansevoort Market just south of 14th Street being the last customers.
Today the elevated line is completely abandoned. As noted, Amtrak uses the west side line north of Penn Station.
In a recent thread, someone asked for a roster of the MP-54 series cars. The following is derived from a listing printed in Electric Lines some years ago. Car numbers are those in place at the completion of the series. Some cars were renumbered as more were delivered the following are the designations:
P-54 Steam Trailer
T-54 Electric Trailer
MP-54 Electric Motor Car
MPB-54 Electric Combine Motor Car
MB-62 Electric Baggage Motor Car
MPBM-54 Electric Combine Motor Car with RPO Section
Motor Car Suffixes:
A, A1 Railroad Roof
B, C Arch Roof
D1 Railroad Roof Converted from Steam Coach
392-421 T-54A Standard Steel Car Co. 1921 - 30 Trailers converted from P-54 Steam Coaches
422-431 T-54B ACF 1921 - 10 Trailers
482-511 T-54 (Unknown) 1927 - 30 Trailers
837-856 T-54B ACF 1923 - 20 Trailers
857-906 T-54A ACF 1920 - 50 Trailers
907-926 T-54 Standard Steel Car Co. 1915 - 20 Trailers
927-951 T-54A Standard Steel Car Co. 1916 - 25 Trailers
952-996 T-54A Pressed Steel Car Co. 1927 - 45 Trailers
1135-1154 MP-54A1 ACF 1930 - 20 Motors
1155-1179 MP-54A1 Pressed Steel Car Co. 1930 - 25 Motors
1205-1219 MB-62 ACF 1910 - 15 Baggage Motors
1348-1349 MPB-54 (Unknown Builder & Year) - 2 Combine Motors (Express)
1350-1364 MPB-54 Standard Steel Car Co. 1910 - 15 Combine Motors
1365-1369 MPB-54 ACF 1911 - 5 Combine Motors
1370-1381 MPB-54 ACF 1913 - 12 Combine Motors
1382-1384 MPB-54 ACF 1914 - 3 RPO Combine Motors
1385-1399 MPB-54 ACF 1914 - 15 Combine Motors
1401-1420 MP-54A ACF 1909 - 20 Motors
1421-1450 MP-54 ACF 1908 - 30 Motors
1452-1551 MP-54A ACF 1910 - 100 Motors
1552-1601 MP-54A ACF 1911 - 50 Motors
1602-1621 MP-54A ACF 1912 - 20 Motors
1622-1636 MP-54A ACF 1913 - 15 Motors
1637-1676 MP-54A ACF 1914 - 40 Motors
1678-1697 MP-54B ACF 1920 - 20 Motors
1698-1737 MP-54C ACF 1922 - 40 Motors
1738-1777 MP-54C ACF 1923 - 40 Motors
1778-1783 MP-54A (Unknown Builder & Year) - 6 Motors (former PRR MP-54)
1784-1843 MP-54C ACF 1924 - 60 Motors
1844-1883 MP-54C ACF 1925 - 40 Motors
1884-1943 MP-54C (Unknown Builder) 1927 - 60 Motors
1944-1983 MP-54D1 (Unknown Builder) 1927 - 40 Motors (converted from P-54 Steam Coach)
Totals:
230 Trailers
52 Combines (including 3 RPO)
15 Full Baggage
626 Coaches
693 Total Powered Cars
923 Total Fleet
I don't have data on any cars not listed here.
Happy New Year
Thanks for the information!
I have one question - would you have the unit #s of the cars wrecked at Richmond Hill and Rockville Centre? (Old photo appears to show one at RVC as #1319 - not on list above - might be #1819 or #1919) also the last car on the Hempstead Train at Richmond Hill is clearly a MP54 (A or A1) but not sure on the Babylon train - account said it was "a shiny grey coach made of a special steel" - indicating that it may have been relatively new - maybe a later MP car type (though it looks like the two cars are the same length judging by the photo) -it seems to have a railroad roof and round porthole windows at the rear, like the MP54s. You can clearly see how the roof of this car (the Babylon train) has been smashed down in the archive photo.
Wayne
1319 is a possibility on the RVC car if the wreck occurred before all of the fleet was in place. As I mentioned, cars were renumbered to make everything fit. If the car in the picture is an arch roof car one of the other numbers is a possibility.
IIRC, the original fleet started at 1041? following the original Gibbs Cars. There may have been a jump around the baggage cars and combines, and trailers may have been numbered in the same series. Later cars got higher numbers, then the originals were renumbered up to create a single series. The original cars from 1908 got higher numbers than the 1909 cars in that particular reshuffle, then the vacated space was filled with the last order. Any trailers numbered in with the motors were renumbered down, making that series not chronological also. Finally there was a renumbering from the 1xxx series to the 4xxx series during the last rehab.
Sorry if I can't be of more help...
Gerry
Thats OK! Thanks for the info. Two photos I have (NB-both Newsday) of the RVC wreck. One is a head on view of an ARCH ROOF car neatly split down the middle, lying on a 45-degree angle with another MP-54 next to it. All that's left of the front is the motorman's cab porthole window and the carbody surrounding it. The other shows one car (the same car, maybe?) lying upside down. The car number is visible in one of the forward side windows. This accident happened in Feb. 1950.
Wayne
While I was going to high school in the late 80's, I used to ride the 7 train to school. I used to always see a service notice and articles in the paper about a thing called the 'Fisk Interlocking Project'. What was this all about and is any sign of the project visible today and where is it located exactly?
The project replaced the switches at Fisk Interlocking, located between the 61/Woodside and 69/Fisk Ave. stations on the #7 line, hence the name "Fisk Project." The switches permit crossovers between the local and express tracks at that location. If you stand on the platform at the west (operationally south) end of the 69/Fisk Statiion, you can see the switches.
BTW, when the line was built in 1917 the present Queens street numbering system did not exist - so the station was called Fisk Ave. Today's name preserves the old and the new. Other Flushing line stations are similar (e.g., 33/Rawson, 40/Lowery).
I was in NY over the weekend with a fellow Seashore member, and we did some fan-tripping. Our destination of choice was Pelham Bay Park(He hadn't done the trip in a while, and I was on my inaugural excursion that far north on the #6).
We went up in an R68-set(non transverse cab up front), and decided to wait for a set of Redbirds coming back. While waiting, one set of R68's pulled in that were numbered all in order(1551-1560 I think). I am not sure I have seen more than 4 or 5 cars in sequence, I know I have never seen all ten.
Also, the trip back to Brooklyn Bridge took under an hour(that surprised me). The motorman heard the two of us talking "serious subway talk," so after a half-dozen stations or so, he opened the cab door and chatted with us for the rest of the ride. I have always been someone who would transfer to an express just to save a few minutes...I might start rethinking that now(I don't think we were passed by many expresses, and the running time between 125th St and Brooklyn Bridge is probably not much less on the #4 or #5).
I also noticed consecutive car numbering in five-car sets on the #6 line R-62s (not R68s, which are IND/BMT cars!) this weekend. Really, they are R-62a's (R-62as ?); the R-62s proper (built by Kawasaki) run only on the #4. Another sub-talker mentioned that the cars are being assembled into these sets in preparation for being permanently coupled with "drawbars". Very likely full-width cabs will be installed too, as the TA has announced its intention to eventually have the whole fleet so equipped.
Oops...I called them R68's didn't I!!! That's what I get from a whole weekend of riding the D train. R68 on the brain.
If the entire R-62 fleet is reworked into 5-car sets, what will they do about running 9-car trains on the 3? The only solution would be to keep enough Redbirds, including the single R-33s, to provide service on that route. Not that I would mind still having our beloved Redbirds around...
I was under the impression that some of the R-62s would remain as single cars for that very reason.
The R68A fleet is in four car sets as well. Operator controls have been removed from all but the full width cab ends.
They'll probably make up a few 4-car sets, or 2-car sets for more flexibility. I doubt seriously that they will put all the R62's into 5-car sets. Most likely, it'll be mostly 5-car sets, and a few sets of 2 or 4 cars, and a few dozen single cars.
-Hank
I BEEN AWAY FOR AWHILE.SEEING R68S ON THE B TRAIN,& A COUPLE OF R62S ON THE 5 TRAIN WERE SURPRISING TO ME.
ALSO AT THE 14TH STREET/8TH AVENUE STATION,THERE'S A CLOSED OFF WALKWAY THAT CAN TAKE YOU TO THE 14TH STREET/7TH AVE STATION.
SHWEET HUH?
.
Please turn off your CAPS LOCK! It's annoying and it makes your messages difficult to read.
-Hank
I just wanted to wish all Subtalkers best wishes this Holdiay Season and that you all have a safe and happy New Year. May you always get the correct line up in life.
Thanks to Dave too for a great year on Subtalk.
Now I have to let the lawyers speak since the last time we had some problems with ethnic slurs I wanted to be completely clear on my above wish!!
Happy New Year,
Lou from Brooklyn
"Please accept with no obligation, implied or implicit our best wishes for an environmentally conscious, socially responsible, low stress, non-addictive, gender neutral celebration of the winter solstice holiday, practiced within the most enjoyable traditions of the religious persuasion of your choice, or secular practices of your choice, with respect for the religious/secular persuasions and/or traditions of others, or their choice not to practice religious or secular traditions at all..and a fiscally successful, personally fulfilling, and medically uncomplicated recognition of the onset of the generally accepted calendar year 1999, but not without due respect for the calendars of choice of other cultures whose contributions to society have helped make America great, (not to imply that America is necessarily greater than any other country or is the only "AMERICA" in the western hemisphere), and without regard to the race, creed, color, age, physical ability, religious faith, choice of computer platform, or sexual preference of the wishee."
(By accepting this greeting, you are accepting these terms. This greeting is subject to clarification or withdrawal. It is freely transferable with no alteration to the original greeting. It implies no promise by the wisher to actually implement any of the wishes for her/himself or others, and is void where prohibited by law, and or revocable at the sole discretion of the wisher. This wish is warranted to perform as expected within the usual application of good tidings for a period of one year, or until the issuance of a subsequent greeting, whichever comes first, and warranty is limited to replacement of this wish or issuance of a new wish at the sole discretion of the wisher.)
It seems like the dollar vans are a perenially favorite topic on discussion on Subtalk and elsewhere. Their pros and cons have been debated endlessly. Yet it seems to me that they might not merit all the attention they've been getting. Look at it this way - the vans have been around for years now, but as far as I can tell they haven't spread beyond a relatively few neighborhoods in Brooklyn and Queens. They don't seem to have caught on elsewhere in the city, let alone in the suburbs or other cities.
I'd be interesting in knowing just how many "official" bus routes actually face significant competition from the dollar vans. My guess is that it's a much lower percentage than one might imagine from all the discussion on the issue. Any ideas?
We'll never know how significant private vans could be, since the City Council has put in place a moratorium on additional licenses. So it is impossible for new vans to comply with the rules and operate legally, with insurance, etc. It is unreasonable to object to them on those grounds.
The B46 is by far the worst for the vans.
The B41 is pretty bad also. One company however, I forget the name, but they are painted white is actually awarded a franchise by Rudy to operate on Flatbush Avenue between Empire Blvd and Kings Highway only as a way of augmenting bus service. We're supposed to be friend ly to these guys (i.e. not block them in).
All other vans and cars are illegal.
At one point they were operating in the Bronx on the BX41 between Fordham Road and 241 Street-WPR and on the BX18 between Jerome Ave-170th St and River Park Towers. I haven't noticed them in a long time now and I sort of forgot about them. I heard that some cars operated in Brooklyn on the B36 route also.
This morning I saw four cars being pulled from Holben Yd. to Hillside by diesel. The four cars were mixed marriages;
9712 (collision) mated to 9726 (unknown damage)
9059 (fire damage) mated to 9048 (windows and doors tapd over)
I assume that there are, then many mixed marriages currently in service. Does anyone have other examples?
This morning I saw four cars being pulled from Holben Yd. to Hillside by diesel. The four cars were mixed marriages;
9717 (collision) mated to 9726 (unknown damage)
9059 (fire damage) mated to 9048 (windows and doors tapd over)
I assume that there are, then many mixed marriages currently in service. Does anyone have other examples?
Yes - I have the following:
9718 and 9725 (you have correctly described their disabled mates above - spotted Dec. 26, 1998)
9187 and 9502
9053 and 9120
What happened to 9717 - serious damage? I didn't hear of any accidents on the LIRR - maybe it happened in the yard.
Also - early 90s - there was a bad accident at a grade crossing in Huntington - a diesel train hit a stuck truck and cracked into a lumber-yard, destroying coaches 2704 and 2711. It also mangled an MU sitting on an adjacent track - number 933x (couldn't see the last digit - had to have been even facing east; it was the end car) BUT I have since seen 9330, 9332, 9334, 9336 and 9338. Did they repair it or did they do like they did with 9625 - renumber it? (9625, wrecked at Babylon in the 80s. 9233 is now wearing 9625).
Wayne
Where's Holben yard?
isn't that hillside yard or is it behind morris park engine facility
You caught me. I meant to say Dunton, where the old electric car facility was - pre Hillside. Holben was the old freight facility wher Hillside was built (I think).
No, I never heard of Holben prior to this post. I'm still learning about the L.I.R.R.
I took my last "therapy" subway ride tonight before I return to Boston, and ended it with a speedy zip from 34th to West 4th in a Q train of R40's, led by #4315. Two questions:
1. How late does the Q run?
2. I saw inactive Wheel Detector signals on the approach to West 4th. Does that mean the days of full-parallel from platform to platform are over? I assume these will be activated soon. If so, I'm glad to have taken the ride I did tonight. The motorman definitely made the trip worthwhile.
The wonderful Slant R40s on the Q run approximately from 6:00AM to 8:00PM, Monday thru Friday. It irks me no end that this valuable service does not run beyond these hours. The only positive I can gather from this that it saves wear and tear on the Slant R40s. The only places I can get a Slant R40 on the weekends is the N or the L; however, on Dec. 19, 1998 I saw one show its angular face on the B.
More than likely you will see expanded/extended Q service once the 63rd Street-to-Queens Boulevard connection is opened in a few years. I hear they're pushing to get it done by the end of 1999.
Wayne /MrSlantR40\
wayne, did u just say that they are trying to get the 63rd street connection done by the end of 1999??? i couldnt imagine that! what is your source?
As a regular Q rider I've gotten a Q as late as 9:30 at 47/50 St. The signs posted on the route say 8:30 to 9:00pm as the latest it runs.
The online scheudle has the first Northbound at 6:08 and the last southbound at 8:34 but I know as far as southbound I've have gotten later Q's. But the Schedule reflects 21st/Queensbridge as the terminal and that trip is almost an hour. I don't know if they made later Q's when they terminated at 57th St.
The online schedule lists the last train at 8:34pm southbound:
21 St/ Lexington 47-50 Sts/ W 4 St DeKalb Church Brighton
Qnsbridge Av/63 St Rock Ctr Av Av Beach
8:34p 8:38p 8:42p 8:47p 8:58p 9:07p 9:20p
And northbound:
21 St/ Lexington 47-50 Sts/ W 4 St DeKalb Church Brighton
Qnsbridge Av/63 St Rock Ctr Av Av Beach
7:42p 7:54p 8:03p 8:15p 8:20p 8:24p 8:30p
They did extend the hours this past year, I believe during the spring pick, probably at the same time when it was cut back to 57th.
Well, extended hours is somewhat of a misnomer considering that it was pushed from 8:30 to 10 PM Southbound and no Northbound extended hours. In addition, I've never seen a Q depart 57th later than 9:33. The Brighton Line, more than any other, needs extended express service. It's extremely frustrating to have standing room only trains in Brooklyn on weekends and even late nights with few people entering and exiting at the local stops. Express trains are a must for the Brighton Line, especially on weekends. Let's push for that.
Standing room only in Brooklyn: some cars are packed, others are relatively empty. For example, Brighton/Coney Island bound, that first car literally empties out at Church Ave. Those who complain about standing during off peak may find lots of seats a few cars away. Also, you have to have extended hours northbound. Otherwise, the train couldn't get to 57/6 in the first place to make the southbound trip!
The most optimistic predictions call for the 63rd St. connector to open in 2001. Actually, it'll likely be 2002. Hopefully, by then the NYCT will have found the rolling stock to provide service through it.
The wheel detector should be inactive unless the homeball just north of W4th St. displays a "Bottom Yellow". The wheel detector is there for protection for the diverging route only.
I feel much better now! :)
THE IRT CARS BUILT BY THE BOMBARDIER COMPANY APPEARS AS IF THEY ARE COMPLETED.DOES ANYONE HAVE COMMON KNOWLEEDGE AS TO WHEN THEY WILL BE DELIVERED,&AND IN PASSENGER SERVICE?
WHO ARE THE MANUFACTURERS OF THE R143 CARS,IS THAT KNOWN YET?
The R143 contract was awarded today to Kawasaki for 100 cars with a 112-car option.
How come nothing on the MTA website of news media about it? Didn't they hold a press conference?
-Hank
You and I both know that the MTA is not the most diligent in updating their web site in a timely manner. I suspect the press release came from Kawasaki. Here it is entirely:
Kawasaki Rail Car Awarded $190 Mln Contract From New York City
Yonkers, New York, Dec. 28 -- Kawasaki Rail Car Inc., a unit of Kawasaki Heavy Industries Inc., a Japanese maker of transport equipment and heavy machinery, was awarded a $190 million contract for 100 new subway cars for New York City.
The New York City Metropolitan Transportation Authority board awarded the contract to Kawasaki Rail Car, which is based in the New York City suburb of Yonkers, New York. The contract includes an option for Kawasaki Rail Car to build as many as 112 additional cars.
Kawasaki expects to deliver the cars in 2001. The company said within a few years, 1,300 out of 5,800 subway cars owned by New York City Transit will need to be replaced.
Kawasaki Heavy Industries had 1997 revenue of about $10 billion. The
company's American depositary receipts, each representing four shares, were unchanged at 8 7/8.
If anyone is interested, there is a clipping on ABCNews.com about GM introducing its new Desil/Electric busses for testing in NYC next year. Perphaps many posters have heard from other sources.
The claim is that the new busses use 40% less fuel and drastically reduce pollution. The key being using electricity for stop and go drive (where most desil fuel is burned) and using a smaller constantly running desil motor to keep the batteries charged.
In all it sounds great. I am curious to know if these busses are also quieter than the current deafaning NYC buses. It seems like they would be.
According to the article GM is bidding to sell hybrid trucks to the Post Office as well.
One can only hope that the fed will not buy them as a political handout to GM.
As I understand it, 70% of the pollution created by a vehicle in its lifetime is created during manufacturing.
I hope that NYC the Post Office and other organizations are reasonable about the trasition to the new vehicles, as replacement without atrition may cause more pollution than would be prevented by the new technology.
Way Cool! Finally - hybrid motor vehicles! From an engineering and environmental point of view, but not being an engineer, these seem really cool to me. The future of motor vehicles should involve hybrid vehicles and fuel cells. (Electric cars are basically stupid, it seems to me...)
While I cannot assess this purchase, I do not think that this is a pork barrel program. This makes sense for pollution reduction. Also, where did you hear the 70% figure? I think it would be way off for most kinds of pollution - way way off. Especially for busses, which go many miles before being retired.
The Wall Street Journal on 12-28 had a lengthy article on it.There website is www.wsj.com
I'm all for the electric Hybrid bus. It could make a big difference in NYC.
Diesel fumes also discourage riders, and anything that cuts down on them improves the quality of life. Moreover, since buses only get 6 - 10 miles a gallon or so, and many lines run mostly empty during off-peak hours, the buses are a bigger polluter than cars at that time! Less pollution, and fuller buses due to more off-peak travel, would bring the polluiton per passenger way down.
Tuesday, December 29, 1998
New Bus From GM
Apple test run
for enviro-friendly vehicle
By BRIAN S. AKRE
Associated Press
General Motors said yesterday it is developing a fuel-efficient diesel-electric bus that will be used to haul commuters during initial testing early next year on New York City streets.
GM says it could save transit fleets millions of dollars in fuel costs while also reducing pollution.
The combination diesel-electric powertrain is expected to cut fuel consumption by 40%. GM is applying the so-called hybrid technology to a commercial vehicle first because it considers that a more logical and potentially profitable use than in passenger cars.
The world's largest automaker introduced the futuristic EV1 electric car at the same show three years ago. Despite the hoopla surrounding it, demand has been weak in large part because the car has limited range before its batteries need recharging at special electricity stations.
Hybrid engine technology involves combining two fuel systems to power a vehicle, typically electricity and a conventional fossil fuel. In the case of GM's bus, the wheels will be driven by an electric motor. A diesel engine about half the size of a conventional bus engine will run at a steady level to keep the batteries that power the motor fully charged.
Most of the pollution from conventional diesel-powered buses results from hard acceleration. With the hybrid running at a steady state, pollution will be reduced significantly.
The technology is similar to gasoline-electric hybrids being used in cars, such as Toyota's Prius subcompact sedan on sale in Japan and scheduled to arrive in the United States in 2000. Honda recently said it would export its two-seat V V hybrid car to the United States next fall. Those cars, however, use both the gasoline engine and electric motor to drive the wheels.
While still studying applications for passenger cars, GM is placing more emphasis on commercial vehicle fleets for near-term use.
GM said it planned to announce details of the bus program at the press preview of the Greater Los Angeles Auto Show this week.
Here's a quiz devoted solely to New York subway rolling stock. Some questions will be easier than others. Enjoy!
1. Most of us know that the BMT Triplex units ushered in route and destination signs. They also had another distinctive feature not found on any other subway equipment. What was this feature? (There is more than one correct answer.)
2. The BMT standards made their debut on June 22, 1915 with the opening of which two subway routes?
3. Who was President of the U. S. when the BMT standards first entered service? Who was President when the last units were retired?
4. Name at least five car types which were equipped with BMT number route curtains at some point during their careers.
5. The R-10s were innovative cars. Name three new features which they had. They were also the last cars to have this feature. What was it?
6. R-1s 100 thru 144 did not have something which their subsequent sister units did have. What was this something?
7. The R-6s, R-7s, and R-9s had two features which the R-1s and R-4s did not have. What were they?
8. Like the R-10s, the R-16s also had firsts and lasts. They were the first postwar cars to have what feature? They were also the last cars in two respects as delivered, one of which pertains to 60-foot cars, the other to the BMT in general. In what respects?
9. Which postwar cars were the first to have door controls in the motorman's cab?
10. The first postwar IRT cars (R-12s, R-14s, and R-15s) were initially assigned to the Flushing line only. Why?
11. The R-17s were the first postwar IRT cars to be assigned to a mainline route. Which route were they assigned to initially?
12. These were the first cars to be delivered from the factory with headlights. Can you name them?
13. Although this may be subject to debate, it appears that these cars have the honor of having served one line almost exclusively since they were delivered for the longest period of time. Name the cars and the line they faithfully serve.
14. The term, "Brightliners" was applied to which cars when delivered?
15. Name the last cars to be equipped with front end route and destination signs, as well as marker lights.
16. Which futuristic cars had to be modified for the sake of passenger safety?
17. The route signs on the R-27s and R-30s as delivered were unique in what respect?
18. What do the R-11s, R-44s, and R-46s have in common?
19. Which IRT cars were the first ones to be delivered from the factory with a bright red paint job?
20. During the 60s, a contract was drawn up for purchase of lightweight equipment suitable for use on the Myrtle Ave. el, but the order was never placed. What was this contract number?
21. True or false: the R-10s ran exclusively in solid trains for their entire careers.
22. When the Chrystie St. connection opened, each subway route was color coded. New rolling stock on the IND and BMT had corresponding colored route signs. Some, but not all, existing rolling stock received new multicolored bulkhead route curtains. Which three car types received these new signs?
23. True or false: when the R-7s and R-9s were transferred to the Eastern Division, they received both new route and destination bulkhead roller curtains.
24. True or false: when the TA began applying the silver and blue paint scheme to rolling stock in 1970, the World's Fair R-36s were not repainted at that time.
25. True or false: like the BMT standards, the Triplex units could operate on all Eastern Division subway routes.
Al least these two questions sound familiar. They come from a book on the New York subways that I cannot recall the name of. Without the book in front of me (it's at home), I can answer these ones:
"3. Who was President of the U. S. when the BMT standards first entered service? Who was President when the last units were retired?"
Wilson was President when the BMT Standards went into service, and Nixon was President when they were retired.
"16. Which futuristic cars had to be modified for the sake of passenger safety?"
The slant R40s, because, as originally designed, they were "smooth" in front and had no handrails or other means to keep people crossing between cars from falling off the train.
5. The R-10s were the first cars to have flourescent lighting and the last to have pneumatic doors.
9.. I think the R-15s were the first to have door controls inside.
11. The R-17s were initially assigned to the #6 line.
12. I think the R-22's were the first to be delivered with headlights.
14. R-32
15. R-38
16. R-40 Slant
18. I'm just guessing on this one, but I think all three clases were intended to ultimately serve the 2nd Avenue subway.
19. R-29?
20. R-39 rings a bell . . .
21. False
24. True
Ok Steve your challenge is accepted.
I will tell you right off the bat that I can't answer all of these; I will do the best I can.
1. The little round drum compartments between the cars; the single-panel door with the four square panels and chicken wire,
2. Fourth Avenue and Sea Beach (9th Ave Lower Level opened same time)
3. Woodrow Wilson (1913-1921); 1969 would have been Lyndon B.Johnson
4. Multi-Sectionals (7000 series), Green Hornet, D-Type Triplexes, Zephyr (the Bluebs only had the destination name) and the star-crossed but classic R-16's.
5. a. Flourescent Lights.
b. SMEE braking schedule
c. Fans in little round cages.
d. (the last feature) Fans in the little round cages (R12/14 had these too).
6. Would that be a divider between panes in their front storm door?
Or did ALL R-1s have this. I can't quite remember.
7. I'm not sure on that one! They all kind of looked alike (except for the fiberglas seats in the R7s and R9s).
8. Public Address Systems.
They were the last to have BMT number signs. Not sure on the
other.
9. R-11 (B Div.) R-15 (A div.)
10. Did this have to do with clearances in the Steinway tunnel
or maybe they had a dedicated yard for them at Corona.
11. I think the Pelham Line (#6).
12. Multisectionals?
13. The R-36 has served the Flushing (#7) line for 34 years- since
1964.
14. Ah, yesh - THE R32s.
15. The R38s.
16. My Beloved Slant R40s, of course - the crazy gates between the A ends.
17. They were linen.
18. They're all air conditioned. And they're all stainless steel.
19. The R15 I think.
20. R-39
21. True, I never saw a mixed consist with R10s.
22. R32,R38 (with squared letters) and R16. R16 got matching side signs too (wish I had one)
23. I believe that is true. I rolled one way back in '69 and didn't find anything lower than "JJ" on it.
24. True - they got painted white later on then redbird red.
25. False - I don't think the Triplexes ever ran in Eastern Div- only on the Sea Beach, Brighton and West End.
How did I do?
Wayne
Oh Boy! another quiz!!! here we go....
1. a) the end signs lightedup in diferent colors depending on the route [i.e. "Bridge" or "Tunnel"]
2 the Sea Beach and Broadway lines
3 a) Wilson b) Nixon
4 1) Triplex 2)Multi-sections 3)"Green Hornet" 4)"Zephyr" 5)R-16
6)R-32 ( I got Pictures!!) 7) R-11 8) R-10 (during their 1930 test runs)
10. Because they could run on the old Interborough lines because of the old lines having platform extenders oriented twords the old Hi- and Lo-Vs
13. R-36- on the Flushing Line...
14 R-32
15 R-38
23. False
24 True
25 False
1. Most of us know that the BMT Triplex units ushered in route and destination signs. They also had another distinctive feature
not found on any other subway equipment. What was this feature? (There is more than one correct answer.)
The backlit destination signs, of which only the "To" destination which was illuminated was visible, along with the illuminated "via Bridge" and "via Tunnel" windows below the route roller.
2. The BMT standards made their debut on June 22, 1915 with the opening of which two subway routes?
Fourth Ave. and Sea Beach
3. Who was President of the U. S. when the BMT standards first entered service? Who was President when the last units were
retired?
Wilson and Nixon
4. Name at least five car types which were equipped with BMT number route curtains at some point during their careers.
Triplexes, Zephyr, Green Hornet, Multi-sections, R-1, R-11, R-16.
5. The R-10s were innovative cars. Name three new features which they had. They were also the last cars to have this feature.
What was it?
6. R-1s 100 thru 144 did not have something which their subsequent sister units did have. What was this something?
Are you referring to the gold "City of New York" lettering on the sides?
7. The R-6s, R-7s, and R-9s had two features which the R-1s and R-4s did not have. What were they?
8. Like the R-10s, the R-16s also had firsts and lasts. They were the first postwar cars to have what feature? They were also
the last cars in two respects as delivered, one of which pertains to 60-foot cars, the other to the BMT in general. In what
respects?
9. Which postwar cars were the first to have door controls in the motorman's cab?
R-15?
10. The first postwar IRT cars (R-12s, R-14s, and R-15s) were initially assigned to the Flushing line only. Why?
The door arrangements did not mesh with the mechanical gap fillers on the other lines.
11. The R-17s were the first postwar IRT cars to be assigned to a mainline route. Which route were they assigned to initially?
#6
12. These were the first cars to be delivered from the factory with headlights. Can you name them?
13. Although this may be subject to debate, it appears that these cars have the honor of having served one line almost
exclusively since they were delivered for the longest period of time. Name the cars and the line they faithfully serve.
R-10s on the A train.
14. The term, "Brightliners" was applied to which cars when delivered?
R-32
15. Name the last cars to be equipped with front end route and destination signs, as well as marker lights.
R-38
16. Which futuristic cars had to be modified for the sake of passenger safety?
R-40 (slant front)
17. The route signs on the R-27s and R-30s as delivered were unique in what respect?
The had the southern division route names along with the word "Broadway". On earlier cars, what is now the N line was the "Sea Beach Express" and on later ones it was the "N: Broadway Express" (yes, it really was an express line). The R-27/30 were the only ones which had "N: Broadway Sea Beach Exp."
18. What do the R-11s, R-44s, and R-46s have in common?
19. Which IRT cars were the first ones to be delivered from the factory with a bright red paint job?
20. During the 60s, a contract was drawn up for purchase of lightweight equipment suitable for use on the Myrtle Ave. el, but
the order was never placed. What was this contract number?
R-39.
21. True or false: the R-10s ran exclusively in solid trains for their entire careers.
22. When the Chrystie St. connection opened, each subway route was color coded. New rolling stock on the IND and BMT
had corresponding colored route signs. Some, but not all, existing rolling stock received new multicolored bulkhead route
curtains. Which three car types received these new signs?
23. True or false: when the R-7s and R-9s were transferred to the Eastern Division, they received both new route and
destination bulkhead roller curtains.
True
24. True or false: when the TA began applying the silver and blue paint scheme to rolling stock in 1970, the World's Fair R-36s
were not repainted at that time.
True
25. True or false: like the BMT standards, the Triplex units could operate on all Eastern Division subway routes.
True?
Someone has started a discussion group on Chicago area transit over at Yahoo. It doesn't seem to have a lot of members yet, but it looks pretty busy anyway, and it seems like the best available site for those of us who want to discuss Chicago transit and who don't have Usenet access. The address is:
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/chicagolandtransitforum
I am modeling a subway and need help with the destinations for a #5 South Ferry train. On the sides of the train in the window, there is a split with three signs vertically. The top says Dyre Ave, and the bottom says Lexington Ave. Express. I was wondering what the middle one says? Any help is greatly appreciated.
THE #5 REGULARLY DOESN'T TRAVEL WITH A SOUTH FERRY SOUTHERN DESTINATION SIGN. WHEN THE NORTHERN TERMINAL IS DYRE AVENUE, THE SOUTHERN IS USUALLY BOWLING GREEN.
At one time, the 5 did run to South Ferry prior to 1977, switching over to the outer loop (1/9) track, but not at all times. So to answer your question, the lower destination sign; i. e., what you refer to as the middle sign, would say South Ferry.
The 5 still uses the inner loop at South Ferry to turn around when it is running to Bowling Green; however, it is considered a non-revenue move and passengers are not permitted to stay on board.
I've starting putting together some plans for my fourth tour of the NY Subway which should take place all being well some time in March 99.
The air fare is quite reasonable and not a problem but htels in NY are priced through the roof. On my last tour I stayed at the Best Western in Queens and it was not a problem commutting in every day. Does anyone know of a reasonable hotel, modestly priced which is near a station about half an hour or so from NYC from which I can commute.
Any help and sugeestions would be appreciated.
Depending on your budget, there are reasonably-priced hotels in Manhattan. I've stayed at the Larchmont, 27 W. 11th St., several times; rates are from $55 to $70 per night for a single. The cheaper rooms are quite narrow, and go fast, so book well in advance if you want one of those. It's a bed-and-breakfast type of arrangement; bathrooms are down the hall.
As for stations, it's only a couple of blocks from the W. 4th St. IND station in one direction, and 14th St.-6th Ave. the other way. A few blocks east and north, and you're at Union Square.
There are some hotels in downtown Brooklyn that should be more affordable than those in Manhattan. Also, Flushing at the end of the #7 has a bunch of hotels. The Sheraton LaGuardia is there (yes, the Sheraton LaGuardia is in Flushing not near the airport!) and a few others all right around Main St. station.
You might check with various airlines-- I've found that booking a ticket thru the airline's travel agency (e.g. British Airways Tours) can price an air+hotel combination at about what airfare would cost if I went and bought it seperately, esp. offpeak.
-Dave
(planning his next tour of the London Underground...)
Umm Sheraton LGA is almost as much as the city prices but it is two blocks from the IRT 7 line. I seem to have a file around here from the Compuserve Travel forum with discounts for staying in NYC. I'll look for it.
For anyone who has seen the Herricks Road 'grade crossing elimination project', it's now pretty obvious that the new overpass is being built to accommodate a 3rd main line track. The rebuilding of the Mineola blvd. overpass seems to confirm this too. Will this project be continued to completion or is it for future consideration? What will be the extent of the 3rd track? Will Mineola be rebuilt ala Hicksville, with 2 Island platforms?
Funny how heavy service improvements always seem to happen in the suburbs, and not in the city. Someone must have noticed that houses in Brownstone Brooklyn sell for more than those on Long Island south of the Terminal Moraine. Can't have that. How about a third track on the L for express service? How about rebuilding 96th St so #1 service from north of 137th can run express and #3 service local? How about the 2nd Avenue subway? Etc., etc.?
[Funny how heavy service improvements always seem to happen in the suburbs, and not in the city. Someone must have noticed that houses in Brownstone Brooklyn sell for more than those on Long Island south of the Terminal Moraine. Can't have that. How about a third track on the L for express service? How about rebuilding 96th St so #1 service from
north of 137th can run express and #3 service local? How about the 2nd Avenue subway? Etc., etc.?]
Suburban transit service sure could use more "heavy service improvements." Monday night on the LIRR, I was one hour late getting to Medford, thanks to a disabled train ahead of us at Wyandanch. You sure get a lot of disabled trains thanks to 25-year-old and poorly maintained equipment. Yesterday, I figured that lightning wouldn't strike twice and I'd make it home on time. Well, I did get to Ronkonkoma on time, only to hear the annoucement that the connecting train to Greenport (which stops at Medford) would be replaced by a bus, with the bus to be arriving in 10 to 15 minutes. Actually, the bus showed up 45 minutes late, a rattletrap school bus with seats too small for anyone larger than Calixta Flockhart or Starvin' Marvin the Ethernopian, and with a driver who didn't know the area at all. Once again, I was an hour late getting home. All this for $214 per month.
I know the L.I.R.R service is lousy. This past Sunday,I boarded a train at Deer Park at 4:59pm.(YEAH IT ACTUALLY GOT THERE IN TIME).The first two cars were closed off. When we arrive at Wyandanch,the doors don't open for three minutes. It seems like the crew didn't know who was supposed to get the doors. Next, we arrive at Hicksville only to sit there for approximately ten minutes because we made a connection and they decided to open the first two cars to passengers.They gave everyone ample time to walk on the platform, which is only right.However, they should have had the two cars in service as soon as it left Ronkonkoma, especially since it was bound for Penn Station. On the 11:12 Penn-Ronkonkoma, the train arrived at Penn station at 11:10,two cars were closed off. The crew must have not anticipated the heavy ridership due to WWF wrestling. They had to prepare the two cars for service. We didn't leave Penn until 11:17pm.Lousy service.
The LIRR could use the GCT connection, which it may get, and locos which can draw power from a diesel-generator or a third rail, so you can get a one-seat ride, but in general its problems are labor related, not capital related. They just don't do a good enough job. Twenty five year old equipment? The R44-46s are 25, and will surely be running at age 40 or 50.
I happened to see a show on train in India on PBS last night. You should see the commuter rail into Bombay. Packed in like they are on the Lex, but for two hours! The doors stayed open, and people hung on while hanging out at 60 miles per hour. And some die each year. They are using 100 year old steam locomotives from the Brits on some lines.
[I know the L.I.R.R service is lousy. This past Sunday,I boarded a train at Deer Park at 4:59pm.(YEAH IT ACTUALLY GOT THERE IN TIME).The first two cars were closed off. When we arrive at Wyandanch,the doors don't open for three minutes. It seems like the crew didn't know who was supposed to get the doors.]
These door-opening delays seem to plague the LIRR. I commuted for three years on Metro North and they almost never had anything similar. But on the LIRR, delays of a minute or two are commonplace, with longer ones (like the one you describe) by no means unheard-of.
Speaking of service on the LIRR, when is the next strike scheduled for? It will be interesting to see if Pataki caves in like Mario did the last time.
I rode one of the new 5xxx RTS's this morning, but since it was before 0700 I didn't notice much except the VELOUR SEATS!!! I can't help thinking it won't be too long before they're all gummed up and disgusting from spilled coffee or whatever. Also, those LED destination signs sure are neato!
Oh yeah...what's with that strange time-delay PA system?
All mew rts's from now on will have the valor seats. As for the delayd pa system it's a 5 second delay from the time the driver speaks into the the Mic to it's heard by the passengers.
I understand that it is a five-second delay; I'm wondering what the reason is for this feature.
It's just like Win98; It's feature, not a BUG.
-Hank :)
The reason for the delay is because the mic is a handsfree microphone. The message is first recorded by the operator and upon finishing of the message then the annoucement is played and heard by the customers. The actual mic is about a foot away from the operators mouth but can record the message with the operator speaking at a normal tone. The recorder is activated by a foot pedal and upon releasing of the foot pedal the message is played. This all being for safety of course so that the operator is not distracted with speaking into a hand mic and reaching his neck over for the "gooseneck" type of mic.
BTW on the subject of new buses I noticed on a New Jersey Transit web site that they are getting about 600 and change RTSs to replace ALL of the original NYCTA 1980 model 870 Grumman buses, so get pics now
How much longer is the RTS design going to be around? It is already a 20-year old design . . .
Someone here mentioned a proposed articulated RTS -- why hasn't anything materialized of it?
Don't get me wrong - I don't dislike the RTS, but I'm just curious.
Articulateds: Sometime around 1983 GMC built a prototype articulated RTS (04 series), but it never did go into production. A couple of years earlier GM of Canada had built several articulated fishbowls. The front end was restyled to create a wider front entrance. This new front end design carried over to the Classic that were introduced later. They operated a a few transit agencies in Ontario including TTC (Toronto) and Ottawa. Later MCI built some articulated Classics also.
According to the NJ Transit bus operations roster they will buy 620 Nova buses in 1999. If those are the same bodies figure at least until
2010 when they start falling apart. Im shocked they got the mileage they did out of those 870s.
Back to the original string - here in Phila, the 400 Ikarus buses that aren't so new any more (coming up on 2 years of age) feature cushioned seats. For at least as long as SEPTA has been around, buses destined for City Division garages got plastic seats, with a handful for "premium" service, charters or suburban assignments got cushioned seating. This ended with the RTS order in '80, at which time all City Division buses got plastic and Suburban Division buses got cushions. As noted in another posting, the feeling was that suburbanites didn't slice the seats (and, for the most part, this was true).
When Germantown Depot closed in '92, the roster was greatly rearranged, and some of the cushioned seat buses wound up assigned to City Division garages. Lo and behold, seats weren't slashed (the fad must've become passe). The same holds for the Ikarus buses also, although the seat backs are becoming covered with marker graffiti once again (unfortunately). The seats don't seem to be stained very much either, surprisingly, especially since SEPTA operators do not enforce the food/drink ban (I get more and more nervous about folks with hot coffee!). The M-4's also have cushioned seats (much more comfortable than those plastic things in the Broad Street cars). It appears that cushioned seats are the way of the future on SEPTA.
On the RTS design, yes, it is 20 years old. Keep in mind, though, that the "old look" first appeared in 1940 and hung around in the form of the 3501/2 model through the early 70's, and the "new look" was around from 1959 through the 80's. The lack of change in bus design is not unusual.
I wish NJT luck with the RTS. From experiences here in Phila, they developed an annoying rattle after 7-8 years of service and it only got worse when the AC units were placed on the roofs. I like buses of all kinds but I don't have a soft spot in my heart for the RTS. The longevity of NJT's Flx's is a tribute to NJT's maintenance. I'll be sorry to see them go.
Personally, I dislike the RTS (Return to Scrapper; Return to Sender; Rolling Ton of {Excriment}). It bothers me we now have a second generation RTS replacing the original RTS. These buses are just a combination of fiberglass & plastic! Their passenger capacity is much lower than the fishbowls & present day Orions. Years ago, the fishbowls ran with improper maintance. If todays RTS' got the same level of maintance as the fishbowls, the TA would be hard pressed to make service level requirements. I rode 5061 Christmas Eve across the Fulton Mall on the B38. Brand new bus. It rattled while stopped, rattled while moving. If I didn't know anything about ages of buses, I would have sworn it was an old bus that just got a good cleaning! The RTS is junk. New junk replacing old junk!
Yeah but on the bright side it will keep the employees at Nimco Bus Division in Newark busy for the next decade or two. Just watch them in action at 303 Duremos Av in Newark as they smash them to pieces. HA HA HA! The leases aren't paid off yet as the TA squanders your tax dollars on a bus that barely squeaks past 12 years of service. For the new year I can't wait to see the "teething pains" that the new buses that NJT will buy to replace their ex-TA/Mabstoa 870 Grummans. I noticed 1711 running on the Bx20 today with its peeling paint and window trim falling off. They are stripping 3605 inside a lot in 207 Street yard with some 36 and 3900s in the vacant lot at 225 Street along the southbound I-95. I remember the 5000 series blitz buses with 1966 registrations before they were retired. Merry Christmas MTA
P.S. for you TA/Mabstoa guys and gals there will be NO RAISE
12-15 years is the average lifespan of a transit bus in daily service. And buses in New York see a lot more service than buses just about anywhere else. And tell me, where are you going to find a bus that DOESN'T incorporate wood, plastic, or fiberglass in its design? As for the RTS onl;y lasting 12 years, you saw 1711 in the Bronx with peeling paint and trim falling off. That's what happens if you don't maintain them. 1711 would have been built in 1981, wouldn't it. And that makes its service age what? 18 years....
With rebuilding, some of these buses are going to last another 10 or so (7500s) Just like those Blitz rebuilds that finally disappeared in 1993. And many of them sat in lots for a few years before being rebuilt during the Grumman crisis. So they didn't all see 28 years of service.
-Hank
The 7500s suck. They were rebiult by an outside contractor. They put this small sterring wheel on it the doesnt turn that far. It's like driving those cars in Disney World.
The 7000s were done by TA themselves and kept the prigimnal sterring wheels and they seemed much better.
So now I know why Ulmer Park got the 7500's from ENY!
is there any way to get a tour of this place?
I understand the following RTSs in storage will be rebuilt:3660 3664 3661 2678.
One question: Where did this information come from?
it has a 4 cylinder engine. the orion is a much worse piece of junk.
Is there the chance that the MTA (LIRR, Metro North) will be giving free rides on New Years Eve?
For NYCT the answer is ****N O ***
(according to an official bulletin there will be extra open booths, extra people and several "black boxes" in use.)
New Years service -- this gets back to my idea of special bus routes (charters). There is a fireworks display at Grand Army Plaza in Brooklyn. Although we live just across the park, my wife says being in the crowd is part of the fun. How do we get there with a 4 and 6 year old, and get them home. Drive? Where would we park?
Why doesn't the TA have special buses picking up and taking people to events such as these? Regular buses would require changes from two or three routes with infrequent service from this location, and the subway would be roundabout for those who do not live on the correct lines. In general, mass transit can only efficienty bring people to a dense center (ie. Manhattan). But special buses could serve a temporary dense center express (ie. the beach, the fireworks, Shea Stadium), especially if they are reserved ahead of time.
Other questions no one asks in New York: why is Prospect Park West still a one way street?
Orignially, the trolleys ran both ways along the park, and not enough space remained for two-way traffic. The switch to buses required the B75 and B69 to squeeze down 15th St and run up 8th Avenue -- not a good thing. Few people use the B69 as a result, so it is very infrequent. There are three moving lanes in one direction on PPW, with one moving lanes in each direction on 8th Avenue but that is misleading. Double parking always blocks one of the lanes, so you are left with single lanes anyway. And while one-ways increase traffic capacity, since Prospect Park SW is one lane in each direction, it doesn't get you anywhere. One 8th Avenue doesn't put you on Grand Army Plaza. Instead, Union St backs up the length of the block.
Why not one moving lane in each direction on each street, with angle parking alongside the park -- more park parking for non-residents on summer Sundays, and for residents year round?
[why is Prospect Park West still a one way street]
Well, whatever it takes to discourage driving in this city needs to be done. If that means turning all street into one lane, one ways, then so be it. This is a pedestrian city and let's keep it that way.
You talk like a single person who lives alone. I need my car because I have a family of four. It would be tough to buy food. I need my car because I get off work at 1:30 AM. Tough to use the once an hour bus at that hour. Most times, I'll drive my car to a subway station. I need my car to visit my mothers' grave site. I only put on about 4,000 miles a year on my car. A car free city would take away a large tax/revenue source.
The Boston MBTA gives free rides systemwide (bus, subway, commuter trains) from 8:00pm New Year's Eve through end of service after midnight. Service is extended until 2:00 a.m on the bus and subway lines (which usually end by 1:00 a.m), and there are 2:00 a.m. departures on the commuter trains from North and South Station (usual last departures are midnight).
Yours truly, however, will be holding down the seat in the weather center, forecasting 'blowing and drifting confetti' on WCBS. See you on the !
And The Eyes will be watching us all from their ghostly perches at Chambers Street-H&M. Happy New Yr, Todd; may 1999 be full of Slant R40s for you (and a return to extended Qservice.
Wayne
Doesn't PATH supply free service on New Year's Eve?
Is PATH service extended up to 42nd on New Years?
If they do, I want to ride the first train!!!!!!!
if they do it will be the first "subway" system in the nation to go through solid rock! and withotut tracks!
(seriously- there is no way for PATh to go to 42nd).
My understanding was that they tried this several years ago, and while successful, there was apparently an increase in vandalism. The assumption then was that people are less likely to destroy something they had to pay for.
-Hank
Does anyone have a complete listing
Thank you
Steve
smokiecat@webtv.net
When reading the messages recently, I noticed there are a lot of messages that negatively comment towards low-income and minority families. I really don't appreciate these comments, since I live in a not-so-nice area and many of my friends are on welfare and live in housing projects. It's really not fair to cut down on people because they don't have as much money as you. Please try to stay away from this kind of talk in the future. Thanks.
Matt. I second your opinion. I work for the Metro-North Railroad and vist several stations a day in the course of my work. You would be amazed at some of the messes we see at our stations in so called affluent towns.It seems that some regard the railroad as a personal dumping ground for household refuse and human waste. In some ways I have found the subway riders by and large to be more respectful of their transit system. To simply brand a people by a group regardless of the criteria is wrong.
Redbird
Moreover, trashing the subway did not arise with the ethnic transitions of the past few decades. Gum coated the platforms, and trash catchers were required on the tracks, long before.
Still, it is understandable that people who do respect the common good are angry at those who are nasty and selfish, regardless of their background.
Larry.I appreciate what you are saying. To those of us who love these trains it is very hard to see them scarred and defaced. Do you recall the graffiti epidemic during the 70's and early 80's. It was enough to break the heart of the staunchest railfan. Do you recall when they had all those vending machines on the platforms? The ice cream machine
in particular would break down quite often and the melted ice cream would run all over the platform. The soda machine was another "Rube Goldberg." It consisted of a cup,syrup and seltzer. Sometime you got the cup,sometimes the seltzer,sometime the syrup,sometimes you got two out of three,like the syrup and seltzer but no cup. Banning of those mechanical bandits from the system was a step forward.
Best Wishes,Redbird
[I work for the Metro-North Railroad and vist several stations a day in the course of my work. You would be amazed at some of the messes we see at our stations in so called affluent towns.]
I've noticed, through commuting on Metro North and now the LIRR, that men in suits tend to be ruder than women or casually dressed men (pushing, hogging seats with papers and other stuff, leaving trash behind, etc.)
Is there ever a time when men aren't ruder than women?
Who says? I find women, in general, to be every bit as rude as men when commuting.
[Who says? I find women, in general, to be every bit as rude as men when commuting.]
That was originally my comment. I do think that suit-wearing men tend to be ruder than women or casually dressed men. But keep in mind this is a strictly unscientific observation, with a lot of exceptions, and of course YMMV.
Right on, RedBirdR33!
I live on Long Island, the supposedly "nice, clean, crime-free suburbia", but I could swear on my last dollar that the M-1s I ride every morning to the city are filthier and more foul-smelling than any subway train I can ever remember!
And it really gets worse during the holidays when the rowdy "grunge crowd" boards the cars drinking beer (which I feel the MTA should reconsider and BAN from all trains). They end up regurgitating their last meal and then when they DO USE the on-board toilet facilities, they end up trashing them in the process!
The subways by and large (except for that plexi-scratching) are overall cleaner than other public modes of travel anywhere in the region. (Can't talk about Metro-North -- I'm not a customer.
BTW, Have a Happy New Year everyone.
cya all in 99! Doug
I don't know if this is still the case, but before we had a car the LIRR wouldn't clean up on the weekend. So every LIRR train I ever rode was filthy, since I never got to see the rush hour.
This gets back to another issue -- food and drink on the train. If you have food and drink, you are going to have spills, and that is either an expense or a mess. But food and drink is also an amenity for those who have long rides, and eat breakfast on the train. It's a difficult question. I think fear of trash is the reason the TA kicked almost all the vendors out of the system.
But after Allen Keiper left the T.A. the trend changed to bring the added income back from the rentals of these news stands. I remember in the 1960s in the Times Square station you could buy a Nedicks Hot dog which leads me to this question. Did Gooliani change the laws or statutes from the early years to read no eating or drinking on T.A property or is this another chapter of his desire to rule the world? There never was to my knowledge any rules, health code or otherwise prohibiting food or drink. Even checking the rulebook I was issued in the 80s doesn't bar meals on the system. Smoking or spitting are the only codes posted on the original IND signage on most platforms.
The rule prohibits the carrying of liquid in an open container. There is no prohibition against eating in the subway -- to my knowledge never was -- but there most certainly is one against littering.
David
The philosophy on lots of things change when the TA president changes. When all those food stands closed down (I miss Nedicks orange drink at Grand Central & that mustard at Delancey St. which had that slight taste of sweet pineapple!). The thinking was food scraps, paper litter & sticky/spilled soda would lead to more nourishment for the rats. Also, it took up space needed for passenger flow in many cases. Certainly the TA wasn't thinking of the rental income, but probably should have. Maybe the TA should have put their own people at the concessions. At least that aspect of the operation would have shown a profit!
I'm always suspect when a person, such as yourself, posts a controversial message but doesn't include an E-Mail Address. Are you afraid of the Mayor. Do you think he's got a special squad of detectives out looking for you for your childish mis-spelling of his name?
The reduction in news stands and food vendors in the subways began during the Simpson era as a means to reduce crime. I too miss the Nedicks stand at Roosevelt Ave. as well as the Pretzel stand on the Mezz. Both of them were gone long before the current Mayor. Likely, the went during the Koch era. Certainly, they were gone during the non-administration of David Dinkins.
The vendors have not all disappeared. There are new, clean looking stands at such stations as 179th St, Parsons Archer and Union Turnpike (for example). The difference is that these stands are built into walls and not out in the middle of passageways where they obstruct passenger flow and create hiding places for those with criminal intent.
[The reduction in news stands and food vendors in the subways began during the Simpson era as a means to reduce crime ... The vendors have not all disappeared. There are new, clean looking stands at such stations as 179th St, Parsons Archer and Union Turnpike (for example). The difference is that these stands are built into walls and not out in the middle of passageways where they obstruct passenger flow and create hiding places for those with criminal intent.]
Could this be misguided reasoning? I suppose freestanding vendors' booths could serve as hiding places for criminals. But the presence of vendors also may well be a deterrent to crime. Were there ever actual studies of the issue, that you know of?
Beside the crime issue I think is also a question of convenience for the transit rider. If you were driving a car you could eat and drink why not allow subway passengers to buy a snack? I know it causes litter but so do people throwing fast food wrappers from their car. It is against the law to litter and we clean the roadways, the TA will just have to clean the stations and make the subway food vendors keep the area clean.
Back in the 80's, I remember a stand at the Delancey St. Station on
the F train, that served hot dogs, along with other snacks. If I
remember correctly, it was permanently built into the station wall.
However, I haven't taken notice during my more recent trips to NYC if
the hot dog stand is still in operation, as I rarely use Delancey St.
Station. Back in 1986, while I was taking one of my first rides on a
New York subway, I had transfered from the J to the F at Essex/
Delancey (northbound), when I noticed the smell of hot dogs filling
the subway station, which then I thought was quite unusual, since it
is not seen here in Philadelphia. The only venders I've noticed in
Philly's subways are the usual newspaper/magazine vendors, mostly in
Center City stations.
Steve, sorry but I must point to your "non-administration" label on fomer Mayor Dinkins. True, he was out playing Tennis more times than we can remember instead of mayoring, nonetheless, the so-called "reductions in crime" that Guiliani always harps on had it's start with the Dinkins Administration with the "Community Policing" policies which did in fact get more cops out from behind desks (and patrol cars) and on foot patrols once again. I don't recall the statistics, but I know many people felt safer again once the beat cop returned to the local neighborhoods. I just wanted to state this for the record.
BTW, are you aware that the reduction of crime in NYC may not even be attributable at all to Guiliani. A friend recently pointed out that the crime rate in ALL major cities throughout the U.S. had gone down dramatically ever since the Million Man March in D.C. He said that Louis Farrakan told the youth there that they should refrain from criminality and look inward to aiding themselves and their families. I had totally overlooked this aspect, since living in the New York area, I really never got to 'look at the big picture' so to speak.
Any thoughts? Doug
Of course this is based on my own personal perceptions but I disagree for several reasons. First, I was caught in the fringe of the Crown Heights rioting. David Dinkin's lack of action bordered on criminal neglect (as well as putting my life directly in jeopardy). Secondly, had Louis Farrakan had the result you allude to, not only would crime be going down but there would be a decided demographic shift in the prison population which has not occurred. (of course, I don't think any one mayor is responsible for the reduction in crime)Back to Farrakan, I feel he is singularly responsible for the reduction of Black on Black crime but is responsible for the increase in bias crimes committed by blacks. I think he and Leonard Jeffries have, in effect, given black youth the perception that anti white crimes and specifically anti-semetism is okay.
Now this may be inflamatory and again I stress that this is solely my opinion but the so-called black leaders have tacidly told a large segment of black youth that it is okay to defy the police. I am not suggesting that the police are nearly always correct but I do know that confronting a person, who can use deadly force, can lead to deadly consequences. When you tell black youth to take the guns from police men and use them against them, you are inviting tragedy. Statements like that are irresponsible and I think the media's enpowerment of people like Louis Farrakan has had the opposite effect on crime.
(A personal note: Prior to his promotion, my son-in-law, who is a Sgt. on the NYPD, was on patrol in the East NY section of Brooklyn. He made a routine traffic stop, which turned out to be a stolen car, driven by a 16 year old, with a loaded 357 magnum on the front seat. Had he not stopped the youth from picking up the gun, ....... well, you can imagine the headines about a white cop shooting an unarmed black youth in front of 300 witnesses)
Finally, I am not sure that there is such a significant drop in crime or if it is just a refinement in the reporting through centralized data gathering which might eliminate double counting of crimes. The rest may be attributable to the extremely low unemployment rate. Working youth are far less likely to commit crimes.
Steve,
I agree with you on several points. First and foremost, TEENAGERS SHOULD HAVE JOBS!!!!!!!!! My son, who is soon to be 16 has already been employed for a year now. I don't say this just because it'll keep kids from causing trouble, but it sure helps. It helps to encourage(or, in many cases CREATE)a sense of responsibility.
Secondly, Louis Farrakan reminds me of a person Ionce knew who(on a lesser scale) had the same ideoloy he does. If it's wrong to opress, discriminate against or kill someone because they are black, why is it okay if they are white or jewish?
But I have to differ with you somewhat. You said "I feel he is singularly responsible for the reduction of Black on Black crime".
You don't at all think that maybe it was the black community's
willingness to improve themselves that contributed to that fact?
No doubt jobs for teens are a good thing. One of the big differences between the Northeast and the rest of the country is the attitude toward work. Fortunately, my family moved from NY to Tulsa when I was 16. I worked as a busboy, diswasher, cook, bellhop, painter movie usher, all night gas station attendent, cub reporter, and phone interviewer (market research). The experience was a 100 percent positive. I was busier, but my schoolwork got better as my capacities expanded. In Tulsa, everyone worked.
In the New York area, poor kids can't get jobs, and affluent parents think it is socially unacceptable for their children to do the sort I work I did. They're just raising the next generation of jerks.
Does the TA hire part time teens, perhaps those at the Transit High School? Better to get them when their 14, and get them used to the pride of bringing home a paycheck, before they get used to loafing around.
[Does the TA hire part time teens, perhaps those at the Transit High School? Better to get them when their 14, and get them used to the pride of bringing home a paycheck, before they get used to loafing around.]
I can just imagine what the unions would say about that ...
You are correct, of course. It was the community and not Louis Farrakan that is responsible for reduction of black on black crime. Perhaps what I meant was it Louis Farrakan, Al Sharpton and their ilk have raised the consciousness of the issue. At least they have done so far more effectively than did Jesse Jackson when he raised the issue with his story about finding himself walking on a dark street with three black youths following close behind him. He said that at that moment he would have felt safer if the 3 youths had been white.
I guess in a transit sense, it's perceptions like that, right or wrong, that affects ridership in certain areas and on certain lines....
Is it true that you can have open containers of alcohol on the MTA's various transit options?
[Is it true that you can have open containers of alcohol on the MTA's various transit options?]
Yes to Metro North and LIRR trains, no to the subway and buses.
I suppose that once again I have a divergant view:
Matt, I appreciate your sensativity about the subject, however, I think it's unfair of you to want to censor other peoples' free speech rights because it makes you uncomfortable. I grew up in one of those neighborhoods. I raised my family in another. Does that qualify me to speak my mind? I have opinions about low income neighborhoods just as I have about more affluent ones. I also have opinions about my own neighborhood which is neither. I also work in all sorts of neighborhoods as part of my duties. Here's a bit of advice which you are free to take or not.
This is a site about transit issues. Transit issues involve more than cars, tracks, signals and stations. It involves politics, jobs, legislation, neighborhoods and social issues. I deal with all of them on a daily basis. If you want to discuss transit issues here or anywhere else, be prepared to confront negative comments as well as positive ones. If you disagree with the opinions expressed, say so, civilly and with facts. If I disagree with you or anyone else, I will do the same. You can't say that it's okay to criticize the middle class and well-to-do and say the poor get a pass. Being poor does not come with immunity from criticism.
I agree with you, Steve, that the poor should not get a free pass when the upper and middle don't, but I am talking about the way some folks on this forum automatically accuse the low-income class of vandalizing and trashing the subways and stations. I am sure there are middle class and probably wealthy youths that come on and tear things apart also. To say that the low class is the blame would be unfair.
I also have experiences in 2 neigborhoods that became rundown in the 60s and 70s.
From my experience there versus other older poor neigborhoods is that the attitude of the people there was very different. While in the immigrant neigborhoods of the past (and some today as well, like Jackson Heights) there was a social/cultural attitude of the work ethic and wanting to belong-to and build society, in the other group of neigborhoods, fostered by a quick ease-our-concience welfare/free-housing approach of the liberal times, the community lacked this self-help, work ethic, and what developed was a generation of kids who instead of working their way through college, got into drugs and violence/crime-oriented mind-rotting disco/rap music. Then came a feeling of wothlessness, envy of others, resentment and of course:
crime (a lot of crime - as I know from personal experience).
, and only envied the well to do even more. welfare/housing-projects and created neigborhoods were occupiedespecially in I would say that
"..and what developed was a generation of kids who instead of working their way through college, got into ....
violence/crime-oriented mind-rotting disco/rap music.."
What exactly do you mean by this statement?
In brief, as a result of the aimlessness and idleness of a welfare lifestyle, the kids are simply not guided into productive pursuits, such as advanced education.
If they were encouraged and guided by "with it" parents to scrimp/save and work, apply for aid/scolarships in order to go to college or at least a trade school, they could pull themselves out and up, just as the many immigrants who had no resources did.
Instead, the kids remained idle, failed/dropped out of school, and spent what little money they had on drugs, boomboxes, hip clothes, etc. And the "culture" that was "hip" to them was raucous, mean and violent rap music or mindless disco, further pushing them away from a proper mindset of self-help/education/work-ethic which was their only hope!
Benzion, while I agree that some inner-city youth have "fallen between the cracks" of society due to their parents not being very parent-like. Also, the music categories of "disco" and "rap" are popular across racial/economic lines and are listened to by people who would not fall into your category of "bad people".
BTW, another factor not discussed in regards to the lowered crime rates in the city is one that I noticed from having lived (up to two years ago) in the "Flatlands/Junction" area: the newest wave of immigrants -- Haitians, Jamacians, Koreans and Dominicans -- tend to raise their children with the "old fashioned" work ethics that they had in their homelands. Most of the new Caribbean peoples are Church-going and bring up their children to respect other peoples property and to stay in school to better themselves. Sad to say, but it is the American born kids (both black and white) that have the behavioral problems and act like the world owes them something.
Just my observation.
cya, Doug aka BMTman
I aggree that the immigrants of today as well, who have a value system/faith system do a much better job of raising kids who will make it.
The issue about rap music is one which I can answer from my perspective of being around for several decades...
You see, the "acceptance" of rap music by more people today (not so many in fact), is only a further lamentable spreading of negative anti-culture. The same is true of the most significant media we have, accepted now by most people: television. The fact that it became accepted by some other groups because of media hype and the popularity of strret culture doesn't in any way make it OK. It simply proves that it is now a ruination for "good" kids as well!
I can tell you plain and simple, as a religious person in a community of others who all don't use TV (except perhaps for the news or some other very selective issue), that not being wrapped up in this quicksand gives our kids and in general our community a totally different approach. You can't imagine how much better life is when you are not constantly soaked in the views/fantasies/troubles/culture/noise created to profit the media moguls. You can have YOUR OWN MIND, your own values, time to think, freedom to be original, etc, etc. It is like walking around free while others are under house arrest!
In any case, the point is that certain bad habits have over the years spread, and that's why we have had graffiti, rudeness, indifference and crime rise and rise. The society of today simply accepts after a while, every new phenomenon no matter how vile, as an incontestible alternative lifestyle, and no matter how detestable, we refuse to say NO. This is not merely liberality it is a lack of belief in absolute values.
Now we have come full circle - and you know why those religious immigrants' kids turn out better...
I have to agree with you about TV -- it's lousy for kids. It isn't the shows I object to -- they display a variety of values and outlooks, and I don't believe in conditioning children to one point of view by shutting out others. It won't work when they hit 18.
But between the shows you have ONE point of view pushed in one message after another: your worth as a person, in every sense, depends on the things you have, which depends on the things you can buy. And you must have it now, without waiting, without sacrificing, without taking other people's needs into account. It's not only more important than God, your community or your family, it's even more important than your own future. It's like indoctrination. I'd almost say it was a conspriracy, except it would be impossible to maintain a conspiracy of such scope.
Of course, part of this message is that your self worth depends on your car, which is one reason why Subtalkers practically belong to a counter-culture. We would be better off if our values were shaped in Hollywood. They are, in fact, shaped on Madison Avenue.
Even regarding the point you disagreed with me on - not shutting out other views "it won't work when they turn 18" - I think you might want to hear how it is to raise kids "otherwise":
As a parent you can AND MUST, *instill* the non-materialistic (spiritual) values you mentioned. This CAN'T BE DONE if you don't shift the balance of inputs the child receives in favor of the philosophy you believe in, during his FORMATIVE YEARS. THEN, he will be able to cope with other views and the crass brainwashing of the media and popular (so-called) culture, without being bowled over.
THIS WORKS. From experience in my community. It is just another big lie when people tell you that that can't or shouldn't even try to guide/filter/direct your child - YOU CAN AND YOU MUST.
...with love and time together (not in front of that infernal machine), and it doesn't hurt if your value system has roots in an "external" source - God.
It's not that I don't try to alter my children's environment. The fact that I live in Brooklyn on purpose, and limit "junk TV" is proof of that. It's just that eventually what they do must be a choice. Doing things because your parent forces you becomes immediately replaced by doing things to fit in with your peers. I saw this when I went to college.
Getting back to the subway, there are businesses worth billions of dollars which rely, for say one-third of their sales, on people buying cars (or features of cars) they do not need in order to get sex/self esteem/fun/respect of peers and other things other than transportation from A to B. Mass transit is portrayed as the transportation of the losers, when it is portrayed at all.
I find the idea of reverse brainwashing distasteful. On the other hand, the fact that interest in the subway (books/this site/TV shows) has become trendy among the fashionable young (ie all those people writing in wanting to do shows about the subway) does not hurt, either. It might not be such a bad idea for the MTA to do some real advertizing (on MTV, say), promoting transit as a cool, worldly, and eco-sensitive lifestyle rather than just a way to get from A to B, hard as it is for me to say it.
Some good points there Larry. Although Ben-Zion also has some things of value to consider.
On the subject of MTA advertising the use of subways & buses as "cool" and "in" -- I am in total agreement. The last time I saw a TV commercial advocating the use of mass transit was a couple of years ago with Gov. George Pataki as stiff as a board delivering a spiel to viewers about the vertues of buying a MetroCard?! They can certainly do better than that. In no way did that commercial make one feel that riding the NYC subways was cool, fun or helping to preserve the environment. Too bad they don't have better Marketing Directors!
Later, Doug
Speaking of cars, does anyone else out there have a Jeep? How about subway-related personalized license plates?
Absurd as it is, there are SUVs in Brooklyn, but no I don't own one. With row houses five feet back from the front property line, it is very difficult to see around corners in Brooklyn (typically one lane, one way streets). If an SUV gets parked on the corner, you can't see anything. If you pull out and another SUV hit you sideways, your kids are goners.
The fact that people who have to park on the street with nearly every spot taken buy these things proves that people are manipulated by advertizing. Hard enough to park a Saturn Wagon, since the turning radius is not that good.
I used to laugh at people who live in densely-populated city neighborhoods, who rarely go out to the suburbs, never mind the country, who nevertheless buy these huge 4X4s.
However, after the recent blizzard here in Chicago, I don't laugh at them anymore. I still won't go out and buy an SUV myself, but these people suddenly don't look as foolish as they did two weeks ago.
(SUV buyers in the city not foolish in a blizzard). During blizzards, alternate side of the street parking is suspended. So I just cancel any discretionary out of town trips and leave the car there, buried under the snow, for a week or two. If you work in Manhattan, or the business areas adjacent (Downtown Brooklyn, Long Island City, the Hub) you don't have to drive. During the Blizzard of 1996, Brooklyn wasn't plowed for serveral weeks, but it wasn't a problem. And an SUV wasn't a solution -- there would be no place to park when you got back.
Snow removal is a big, big, political hot potato in Denver. It was the main reason one mayor was voted out of office; his successor was second guessed for using the city's garbage trucks to pack snow down, instead of plowing it, after an arctic blast froze everything and left side streets rutted for months. The funny thing is, Denver doesn't get dumped on nearly as much as most people are led to believe. It snows much more in the mountains than it does in Denver.
SUVs are extremely popular out here, for obvious reasons. And I must say my Jeep has gotten me out of a jam more than once. What a lot of people don't realize is that 4-wheel drive only helps you get going; it does NOT aid in stopping. These people think they're invincible in an SUV. I've seen more than SUV go barrelling by me on I-25 in a snowstorm at 65 mph (like an A train of R-10s at 81st St.), only to wind up flipped over in the median.
I am very concerned about the crash effects of SUVs. There is no question they have their place in rural America, which is where they were before they got trendy. But they are wrecking havoc in the city.
You many not have heard, but the Brooklyn Bridge (which was thought to be the best of the three because they banned trucks, buses and trains to limit the weight) is in danger. They are installing huge new structural elements on an emergency basis from street level to support the bottom of the bridge. On an emergency basis (diverting money, no doubt, from the Manhattan Bridge)! One of the reasons given -- the pounding from 6,000 pound SUVs. (But neither DOT nor the MTA is willing to admit that million pound trains are a problem, since neither wants to pay for a replacement).
The Metro Area has a very good solution for the SUV problem. Base the Parkway prohibition on vehicle weight (according to the manufacturer) rather than whether they are commercial or not. Small deliver and commuter vans could use the parkways, but huge SUVs could not. Immediately, those who did not really need SUVs would decide not to buy them to have full use of the roads.
[I am very concerned about the crash effects of SUVs. There is no question they have their place in rural America, which is where they were before they got trendy. But they are wrecking havoc in the city.
You many not have heard, but the Brooklyn Bridge (which was thought to be the best of the three because they banned trucks, buses and trains to limit the weight) is in danger. They are installing huge new structural elements on an emergency basis from street level to support the bottom of the bridge. On an emergency basis (diverting money, no doubt, from the Manhattan Bridge)! One of the reasons given -- the pounding from 6,000 pound SUVs]
But let's not forget that the SUVs of today weigh little if any more than the average family cars of 30 years ago. While there's been a shift in the noncommercial vehicle mix over that time - from many heavy cars and few SUVs, to some heavy SUVs and many light cars - the average vehicle weight probably hasn't changed much. There undoubtedly are other factors contributing to the Brooklyn Bridge's structural problems, sheer age possibly among them.
I've been saying the same thing repeatedly on NYC.TRANSIT, and no one believes me...
-Hank
[I've been saying the same thing repeatedly on NYC.TRANSIT, and no one believes me...]
I know. It's hard to figure out what's going on. Is it that people hate SUVs so much that they're willing to blame them for the Brooklyn Bridge's deterioration? Is it necessary to find *some* responsible person or thing, rather than just concede that bridges, like any structure, eventually deteriorate? At least with the Manhattan Bridge, design flaws were easily identifiable as the culprits.
Now hold on here. I'm not sure I agree that SUVs weigh no more than the cars of 30 years ago. That may be true of the smaller vehicles, but not of the largest, which weigh over 6,000 lbs. (My knowledge of vehicle weights comes from the annual auto issue of consumer reports). Were the cars of yesteryear over 6,000? I doubt it, despite the switch from steel to aluminum. Perhaps some dual transit/car buff could answer that question.
Todays SUVs are made from mainly aluminum not steel and are lighter weight. The only exception might be the huge SUVs like the Chevy Tahoe, Suruban and Yukon. The mid-size SUVs dont weight over 2000 pounds. That's like two passenger cars. The new trend now is towards mini-SUVs. They are much smaller, lighter and won't override your bumber in an accident. Much cheaper too.
There only mass-produced vehicle that use aluminum body or frame componants is the Audi A8. Aluminum is an expensive metal to manipulate, and most car companies are only beginning to experiment with it. (Ford made an Al Taurus) Some cars have aluminum engines, some just aluminum heads. The most common material in cars after steel is usual some type of plastic. But most of the car is still steel. SUVs are almost all steel. Fiberglas and some plastic has made it into the most commonly damaged parts (usually front and rear fascia)
According to www.cheverolet.com, the heaviest available FACTORY Suburban C/K 1500 (which I believe to be the heaviest vehicle that can be registered as a passenger car) weighs 5,293lbs, and has a 2,007lbs cargo capacity, so fully loaded, this vehicle weighs 7,300lbs. That's over 3 tons. The Brooklyn Bridge has a 4-ton weight limit. I can't find any weight info on a few other vehicles I tried to check out.
-Hank
The SUV driver is the real menace, especially our SI housewives barelling down Amboy Road in the rain, while on their cell phones of course. It's time for me to trade in my trusty 1990 Camry for something with more firepower.
Nonethess, Staten Island isn't the scariest place in the city to drive. Queens is. Brooklyn would be, but with so few wide streets and so much traffic you are never going more than 15 miles per hour when you get into an accident. On Queens Blvd, however, those going 50 and shifting across 8 lanes to get around people mix with those going 20 and pulling into driveways. Sheer terror.
My Jeep's curb weight, according to the owner's manual, is 3,096 pounds - quite literally, a ton and a half. Cars in general have gotten much lighter, compared to those boats from the early and mid-70s.
As I recall, some Cadillacs from back then weighed in at roughly 5,500 pounds. It's quite possible that other jumbo, full-size cars from that era also tipped the scales at around 5,000 pounds.
Let's face it - nothing lasts forever. The Brooklyn Bridge is 115 going on 116. John Roebling, who designed it, certainly was no dummy. I wouldn't doubt that age, along with vehicular wear and tear, have taken their toll on the bridge. I wonder what the maximum practical span would be for a steel arch bridge such as Hell Gate. That sucker will probably still be standing, strong as ever, 100 years from now, I'll bet.
I'd say it's pretty clear that while there's a greater mix of vehicle weights on the road today (relatively light cars and relatively heavy SUVs), the average weight has gone down over the last 25 or 30 years. For example, if you take the total weight of the next 100 or 1,000 cars to cross the Brooklyn Bridge, I'm just about certain that it'll be less than it would have been in 1970. Another point to consider is that pickup trucks - which are relatively heavy, many SUVs being built on pickup platforms - are among the most popular private vehicles in the United States but are rather rare in NY.
So I agree, the Brooklyn Bridge's deterioration is due to something other than SUVs.
The height of SUV's and pickups, not the weight, is the real problem for the road. These vehicles sit higher than cars and tend to "jump" in the front. Thus, current highway guard rails (or guide rail, depending on which side of the fence you sit, no pun intended) can easily be vaulted by such vehicles. Studies are now underway to see what can be done, short of raising the rail elements. Due to the weight and centers of gravity of these vehicles, even when they don't lift when they hit the rails, the height of impact tends to force the vehicles to overturn, rather than deflecting them along the rail.
On the Brooklyn Bridge, Roebling erred on the conservative side, using what today's engineers call a factor of safety (or intentional overdesign) to compensate for unknowns. Little was known about suspension bridges when the BB was built, so the thought was to make it extra-strong. Although the concept of factor of safety was not known at the time, today the BB has a factor of safety about 9 (i.e. it can withstand 9 times its expected design loads/stresses). At present, engineers generally use factors of safety of 1.5 - 2.
There are two major enemies of bridges today. One is overloaded vehicles - the pounding these cause takes a heavy toll. The other is de-icing chemicals - road salts, etc - which deteriorate steel gradually. If you look at comparable el structures, railroad bridges, etc you will note that they tend to be in much better shape and last longer than highway bridges. The two factors mentioned above are the main reasons why.
(Brooklyn Bridge -- nothing last forever). Unfortunately, the national non-plan has been to replace infrastructure which wears out in the Northeast with new infrastructure in the South and West. Perhaps I should follow my money to Denver -- but you'll have to expand that rail transit system first.
Well, as I've previously mentioned, our existing light rail line is being extended 8.9 miles to Littleton. This will be known as the Southwest Corridor. Construction is moving along on schedule and under budget, and service is expected to begin in July 2000. There is a possibility that it may be extended further to Highlands Ranch in the future.
Two other lines are in the planning stages: one would run along I-25 down to Lincoln Ave. in Douglas County, a distance of about 13 miles, with a 4-mile spur along I-225 to Parker Rd. This would be known as the Southeast Corridor. Our new governor has made improvements to I-25 a top priority, and that includes a light rail corridor. The other line is a spur through the Platte River valley which would serve Elitch Gardens Amusement Park, the Pepsi Center currently under construction, Union Station, and Coors Field, with a future extension out to Denver International Airport. There is talk that the Platte River Valley spur could be started this fall, and finished in a year.
A line out to Lakewood has been discussed, but has met a lot of NIMBY opposition. It would run through largely residential areas, whereas the Southwest Corridor is being built along an existing rail corridor, and the Southeast Corridor would run along I-25.
Back in November of 1980, voters rejected a referendum which would have called for 0.1% sales tax increase to fund light rail construction (I told you people out here "just say no" to a lot of things). Had it passed, these lines I've alluded to would have been built for a lot less money.
Ridership on the existing line has exceeded expectations so far. Heck, the trains were so crowded initially that several bus routes which had been rerouted to serve as feeders had to resume running downtown; RTD had to order additional LRVs just to keep up with the demand.
"Unfortunately, the national non-plan has been to replace infrastructure which wears out in the Northeast with new infrastructure in the South and West. "
After a recent trip to Atlanta which has a 16 lane mega-highway with (unused) HOV lanes slapped on the sides cutting through the heart of the city. . . I'd have to agree with your statement. That trip also proved to me that it doesn't matter how many lanes you build into a highway system, it will still be a parking lot at rush hour.
"Unfortunately, the national non-plan has been to replace infrastructure which wears out in the Northeast with new infrastructure in the South and West. "
After a recent trip to Atlanta which has a 16 lane mega-highway with (unused) HOV lanes slapped on the sides cutting through the heart of the city. . . I'd have to agree with your statement. That trip also proved to me that it doesn't matter how many lanes you build into a highway system, it will still be a parking lot at rush hour.
I think your jeep is lighter than the average SUV, isn't it? The trend is to make those @!#$ things heavier and heavier...
I don't know about NYC, but nationally SUVs are just about 50% of "car" sales. Not good news in these days of global warming... Further, I think that it *must* be having some impact on average vehicle weights. ("Small" cars are also getting bigger these days.) But the average vehicle weight is not as important as the extreme, and some SUVs must be heavier than any Cadillac. Isn't the Surburban ~ 3 tons?
Lastly, there are a lot more SUVs sold today than there were Cadillacs sold in 1957...
(I am still skeptical about this theory, but becoming less so...)
[I don't know about NYC, but nationally SUVs are just about 50% of "car" sales. Not good news in these days of global warming... Further, I think that it *must* be having some impact on average vehicle weights. ("Small" cars are also getting bigger these days.) But the average vehicle weight is not as important as the extreme, and some SUVs must be heavier than any Cadillac. Isn't the Surburban ~ 3 tons?]
Actually, pickups are the best-selling vehicles in the United States, accounting for almost half of all registrations in some areas. Pickup weights are comparable to SUVs, which might be expected as most SUVs are built on pickup platforms.
As I'd mentioned earlier, the relative scarcity of pickups in New York tends to weaken the "heavy vehicles" theory of Brooklyn Bridge deterioration. I still think sheer age is the main problem.
Actually, most SUVs have about a ton on a pickup. There's the extra bodywork, seats, interior stuff, more powerful A/C and engine equipment required....
-Hank
OK, I'll jump in. But relating SUVs to Global Warming? Having just returned from a week-long conference of the American Meteorologial Society in Dallas, believe me -- there's still a lot of controversy regarding climate change. But that's WAY off the subject.
I drive a Chevy Tahoe (weatherpeople need 4WD to get to work in the bad stuff, you know!). I am alive today thanks to its size. A few years ago, I was struck broadside by a full-size sedan that ran a stop sign at 20 mph. The policeman who investigated (and arrested the other driver) told me that had I been in a similarly sized sedan, I'd be a gonner. There was considerable damage, but insurance took care of that, and I walked away unscrated (thanks to my seat belt, of course). My Tahoe and I are still very happy together.
Back on subject, even with 10 days in Dallas, I didn't get a chance to ride DART. But the locals tell me it's quite successful.
Well, next Saturday is another transit and weather together day in NYC. I have a FunPass in hand...
My wife just got hit the other day by a Lincoln Navigator. The other driver walked away with one wheel sheared off. Our Dodge Stratus has a much shorter hood than it did earlier that day, but my wife also literally walked away with a sprained knee.
Yes, the big fellas take the damage better, but they do their share also. As I noted in a previous post, many highway guard rails will need to be adjusted to appropriately protect these vehicles. And, even with the adjustments, there is no guarantee that drivers will be protected properly, mainly due to the high center of gravity of the SUV's and pickups (and pickups are worse since there is so little weight in the bed area). Of course, the other big problem is that drivers really don't know how to properly handle the trucks.
The worst drivers when it comes to snow and ice are those #$@%@#$% SUV driver, who think 4WD makes them immune to the laws of physics. I've seen some pretty wild driving the last few weeks, with the ice and snow storms that have been hitting us, but by far the worst is from those SUV drivers.
(Of course, another subect entirely are the morons who decide that the shoulder, or worse, a grass median, is a lane)
-Hank
That's the beef I have with the ads for these behemoths - people think all you need to do is get behind the wheel and you miraculously become a better driver because you have 4WD. What a farce!
My personal favorites are those who have cars which can barely move enough to get out of their own ways and bald tires who decide they have to get out during the icy weather.
We have plenty of those #$@%@#$% SUV drivers out here in Colorado, too. Many of them are transplants from warmer climate areas who have little, if any, experience in driving on snow. Come to think about it, some of these people have difficulty driving when it rains. But since we average only 12-13 inches of rain a year, that might be understandable.
Very true... My first car was a 1975 Ford Torino, a "midsize" car back then, which tipped the scales at 4100 lbs. I never got better than 12 mpg with its 400M V8 and 2bbl carb. My current ride, a 1986 Chevy Caprice, very much a full-sized car both in 1986 and even more so now, weighs in at just 3600 lbs and easily gets 20 MPG on the hwy, despite a 305 V-8 with a 4bbl carb and 144,000 miles on the odometer!
As much as I hate SUVs for a bunch of reasons, I am a little skeptical about this damage theory.
However, keep in mind that the damage done is not a function of the average vehicles weight (which Peter's post sort of implies). One vehicle that is too heavy and 9 light vehicles is worse than 10 vehicles that are all a little heavier than the 9 light vehicles, but not "too heavy."
I don't have an SUV, but have a car almost as big as a truck.
It's a BIG 1969 Chrysler 300. You know, one of those nice and comfortable gas gusslers from the days of plentiful and cheap gas.
I like classic cars of the 50s and 60s era. Of course this is my second passion (another classic, the R-10s, R-38s and R-40s come first).
Doug
Absolutely!!! Sorry I misunderstood your point. Happy Holidays
I agree and feel the same as you Matt. In general all groups (low, middle and upper class) of people are criticized for something, but very often the poor people referred in such a negative (almost sub-human)tone.
I grew up the Bronx and I've heard all sorts of comments. I've relocated to the Wash DC suburbs near Silver Spring and Chevy Chase, Maryland and people's mouths hang open when I tell them that I grew up in the Bronx. They are even more shocked when I tell them that I often go back to visit friends and relatives.
I know that they are amazed that I seem to "fit in" in this nice area only to find out that I grew up in the Bronx. The wide-eyed looks tell me that as a person who grew up in the inner city - I'm not expected to have much success and I definitely not expected to reside in Montgomery County, Maryland.
Problems such as the ones you described often seem to come from lack of knowledge and experience.
Do you think your neighbors assume you should be robbing stores because you grew up in the city(and New York City at that)?
Unfortunately, it's things like the "social gap" that cause these types of divisions among people. They are surprised you grew up in the city.
Do they have different reactions to, say, the person if they were black or white?
When people talk about the lower class, 9 times out of 10 they are probably referring to some minority group. As bad as it sounds, there seem to, in mnay cases, be major differences in the way black and white people view each other and how each is treated in society.
This very "elitist" view that some people have is why groups tend to disassociate themselves from or shun other groups of people for reasons as stupid as where they were raised.
And it seems like a problem that isn't getting better.
Problems such as the ones you described often seem to come from lack of knowledge and experience.
Do you think your neighbors assume you should be robbing stores because you grew up in the city(and New
York City at that)?
Yes, I think you're correct. I'm not sure of their exact thoughts, but they may think that people from the inner-city are generally into some sort of negative activity. Many of my neighbors are nice people but they were raised to believe that the inner-city and the people in it has little or no hope.
I know that within NYC and surrounding areas some people expect the worst from those in the poor areas. I've said this before in the past - This type of narrow-minded thinking causes so many unnecessary problems makes the U.S. a laughing stock to the rest of the world.
I think you're right - RE: It seems like a problem that isn't getting any better. Collectively, America needs to wake up and stop prejudging other people.
"This type of narrow-minded thinking causes so many unnecessary problems makes the U.S. a laughing stock to the rest of the world."
"I think you're right - RE: It seems like a problem that isn't getting any better. Collectively, America needs to wake up and stop prejudging other people."
So only Americans, and no other people in the world, stereotype poor people? Or city residents vs. rural residents? That's why most nations has the equivalent in their comedy of the "hillbilly" or "hick"? That's why many nations have the equivalent of the "Midwestern" or "BBC" accent for radio-television announcers, while the "New Yawk" or "cockney" accent of lower-class city-dwellers is rarely heard on the airwaves except as low comedy?
Or are you using the stereotype (PREJUDGMENT!!!!) of the "ugly American": all Americans are narrow-minded and biased while all foriegn people are sophisticated and broad-minded?
Actually, I think things might get better. The civil rights revolution coincided with a crime/drugs/single parenthood wave. People just wanted to get away from each other. If it were not for that coincidence, things might have been different, at least in NYC. As it is, the bigots are leaving and dying, and will soon be gone.
The last place they will be is the city government, especially the elected officials. Thank God for term limits.
[ As it is, the bigots are leaving and dying, and will soon be gone. ]
Actually, the bigots simply have taken on a different complexion - literally. Cases in point: Al Sharpton, Khalid Muhammed, Sonny Carson, the people behind the _Amsterdam News_, etc.
Speaking of bigotry, if there's one non-tragic element about the Kendra Webdale incident, it's that it involves no racial issues. At least we can be thankful for that.
I agree about Khalid Muhammed, but must take you to task regarding Al Sharpton. Sonny Carson is almost a non-issue these days if he is even still around.
Sharpton cannot be thrown into that group if you consider that he came to the aide of the WHITE off duty city cop and firemen that were threatened by Guiliani with being fired from their jobs for having appeared in a parade float where they had caracatured black teens. One of them even made fun of the black man killed by the rednecks in Texas as he was dragged to death. So, in all fairness you cannot put Sharpton in the same boat as Muhammed or Carson.
At least I have seen Sharpton as a more reasonable person and worthy of consideration.
The Amsterdam News today is indeed a far cry from the descent paper it once was. (I believe it is run by a different publisher than years past??)
Doug
Excuse me, but Racist Al Charlatan IS to be lumped with those racists. Remember the 125th St. clothing store arson? Wasn't it he who called the store merchants white interlopers - IN THE U.S.?!?!? HE AND THE NASTY RESIDENTS OF THE AREA ARE THE INTERLOPERS! And do you also remember the day-of-outrage marches he led through Flatbush over Colin Ferguson's racist murders on the LIRR, just like the ones in virtually crime-free Howard Beach and Bensonhurst? No you didn't, because he would never show solidarity with whites against criminal blacks! Does he ever shoot off about black interlopers in formerly crime-free housing projects in Canarsie that were caught victimizing elderly white residents as soon as integration was forced? But of course not! How about other America-haters who'll quake in their boots if you suggest they move to the land they love - Liberia? He'd always defend them. And yes, I see racism on occasion on the subway, with white brothers and sisters always the victims.
I don't know if Wilbert Tatum is still the head of the Amsterdam News, but he reputedly used it as a forum to attack his personal enemies. What it's like now is beyond me. Remember, those who read and love it and the City Sun will be the first to blast any publication or person who speaks up for decency and lawfulness.
I regret having to spew such comments, but I speak for good and against evil, which I continue to see during my subway rides.
> Excuse me, but Racist Al Charlatan IS to be lumped with those
> racists. Remember the 125th St.
> clothing store arson? Wasn't it he who called the store merchants
> white interlopers - IN THE
> U.S.?!?!? HE AND THE NASTY RESIDENTS OF THE AREA ARE THE
> INTERLOPERS!
Er, excuse me, I don't much care for Al Sharpton either, but "he and the nasty residents of the area" are hardly "interlopers". Most of them are the descendants of slaves who were brought to the U.S. against their will. Yes, we abolished slavery 135 years ago, and blacks today should not use it as an excuse for their failings. But it does mean, unquestionably, that they are not "interlopers" and must never be considered as such. Their families have been in the U.S. longer than most of ours.
I agree with Dan. Mr. Standard, you do not know your history of this country much since you seemed to have gone on a tirade quite abit.
First, Sharpton DID NOT set nor endorse the fire that destroyed that business in Harlem. Also, it should be pointed out that the store's owners did harm to a resident/shopper and at least deserved a protest of some kind for his actions. The fire was WRONG. But I do not have a problem with Sharpton's call of white (or other) shop owners as "interlopers" since I think whites would have a problem with black shop owners in their neighborhoods -- wouldn't you agree???
The Howard Beach neighborhood has it's own crime (hidden within the Bergen Hunt and Fish Club). It has it's own "thug" situation that is quite famous as we all know. BTW, being within ear-shot of JFK makes that neighborhood quite undesirable. So much for Howard Beach.
Now, about the integrating of those projects (like in Canarsie). I don't condon the acts of the thugs that went around and terrorized the white AND black residents -- but it also must be pointed out that the height of all that stuff -- the late 60s and early 70s -- coincided with the great influx of heroin and other addictive drugs into the urban area. Much of the street crime was commited by youth who robbed/mugged/terrorized people not so much for racial reasons, but to get a fix for their drug habits.
BTW, Colin Ferguson was a nutzoid like the pusher we saw the other day. He fired indiscrimintely on an LIRR train. As the case progressed, it was found out that he (Ferguson) was on that particular train looking to kill his former employees' "Personnel Dept. Director" (he blamed his job loss on this person). Not seeing her on the train -- he snapped and fired in the car using no particular aim at all. So how is that racist??? It was a crazy and unfortunate act like the wacko who shoved the girl in front of the train.
You seem to like to see things as black vs. white when the race factor is not even there.
Doug
[I agree with Dan. Mr. Standard, you do not know your history of this country much since you seemed to have gone on a tirade quite abit.
First, Sharpton DID NOT set nor endorse the fire that destroyed that business in Harlem. Also, it should be pointed out that the store's owners did harm to a resident/shopper and at least deserved a protest of some kind for his actions. The fire was WRONG. But I do not have a problem with Sharpton's call of white (or other) shop owners as "interlopers" since I think whites would have a problem with black shop owners in their neighborhoods -- wouldn't you agree???]
Sharpton did not explicitly call for the firebombing of the Harlem store. You're correct in that respect. And I'll give him enough benefit of the doubt to guess that he probably was quite dismayed at what happened. BUT - he either realized or should have realized that all his speeches/tirades about white interlopers just might prompt some unbalanced character to decide to settle some old scores. Freedom of speech is of course an important right. But sometimes people have to be careful in what they say - that's particularly important in the case of someone like Sharpton, who wields considerable influence in some segments of the community.
I agree Peter, those in "the public eye" should be more careful with there comments in certain situations.
Doug
"But I do not have a problem with Sharpton's call of white (or other) shop owners as "interlopers" since I think whites would have a problem with black shop owners in their neighborhoods -- wouldn't you agree??"
No, I wouldn't agree, not one bloody bit. Any person who can raise the capital to open a business has the right to open it in any neighborhood he or she pleases (zoning permitting, of course). No American is an interloper in anyone else's neighborhood. As a matter of fact, I would have no problem with a minority shop owner in my white neighborhood. If you count Indians and Asians as minorities, they are already here, and I've never seen any trouble about it beyond the very occasional sarcastic comment (but even the people making the snide comments still do business with the minority storekeepers).
I can't see why whites would oppose a black-owned store, as such, in their neighborhood. If you're talking about a very segregated and insular neighborhood that doesn't want any black people in the neighborhood period, they wouldn't be any happier about a white-owned business with black employees. And being in the majority, they are a lot less likely to buy into (or act upon) the "THEY are taking money out of OUR neighborhood" logic that gets non-black merchants in black neighborhoods into trouble even if they are honest and respectful to their customers.
"You seem to like to see things as black vs. white when the race factor is not even there."
An odd comment to make, since your statement quoted above either advocates commercial segregation or presumes that it exists and that whites would automatically oppose a black-owned store in their neighborhood. If that isn't "seeing things as black vs. white," nothing is.
One of the problems is not enough Blacks open their own businesses, or if they do, they limit themselves to their own communities, just 12 percent of the population. I read a census report that said more than half of all business owners had close relatives who also owned a business, so it seems to be a cultural thing. It certainly isn't in my background, either.
Of course, when New York's minority enterprenuers try to go into the mass transportation business...
(White bigots replaced by black bigots). You have a point.
People are people. Those with too weak egos to think highly of themselves as individuals will gather together to look down on other people as groups. Here, its skin color. In Bosnia, it was religion. In India, its caste (same color, same relgion). In Rwanda, well, who knows what that was about anyway. In high school, it was jocks vs. freaks vs. nerds, etc. You go to Soho, they don't necessarily want to keep people who are black out of their neighborhood, just people who aren't hip enough to wear black.
Unfortunatley, these are the sort of people who show up at public hearings. And sensible policies get warped by their predjudices.
Sonny Carson, Leonard Jeffries and Louis Farrakan are devout racists and a danger to civilization. Unfortunately, in the heat of the moment, some other people make statements which had they thought about it first, would never make those statements. I include Al Sharpton in that catagory. Not necessarily because he is not a racist but because he's smarter than the average racist (Tawana Brawley not withstanding)
In this catagory one might also want to include the current TWU Local 100 President Willie James. Mr. James, unwisely and publicly referred tothe MTA management as 'Those Meatballs" possibly referring to some of their herritage. I say unwisely because after 3 important pension bills had passed and just awaited the Governor's signature, Governor Pataki vetoed all 3. This was a stunning blow to Willie James and a tremendous boost the 'New Directions' faction of the TWU. Do you suppose the Governor was punishing Mr. James for his imprudent Racist Remark? just a thought!!!
There is no greater cost of racism (or at least the relative political power of different people who group themselves as racist) right now than the evolving solid waste management system.
In order to move garbage as far away from white people over age 45 as possible, the city has refused to go with direct transfer to rail in Brooklyn and Queens (the trains with the garbage would have to go out through Queens, Peter Vallone's district, and perhaps be loaded near but not that near Bay Ridge). Instead, it administration has decided to have individual garbage trucks from Queens and Manhattan drive up to 50 miles outside the city (100 miles round trip) to unload. Imagine the cost of fuel, wear and tear, and overtime!
The could load trains along Review Ave near Newtown Creek, far from any residents, and in Sunset Park. We will pay for this for God knows how long. How long with the contracts be for?
One of the problems with Racism is that since the 1960s, it is uncool to have a policy that explicitly sticks it to Black people. So you have to work around it by sticking it to areas where Black people live, even if other people also live there.
So only Americans, and no other people in the world, stereotype poor people? Or city residents vs. rural
residents?
Or are you using the stereotype (PREJUDGMENT!!!!) of the "ugly American": all Americans are narrow-minded
and biased while all foriegn people are sophisticated and broad-minded?
First, Please do not put words in my mouth. I never said nor did I imply that this is an American problem. If you think so - you're certainly entitled to your opinion.
I guess I should've been a bit more thorough in my earlier post. America - has much more resources and potential (in my opinion) than any other country, yet we have these problems that without a doubt holds us back. Again, I'm not saying that other countries don't have their own problems with stereotyping etc., but I was speaking about America here.
Yes, I am Black and native born American.
I agree that saying America needs to improve its bias problems is not per se a statement that other nations don't have the same problems. However, the other quote of yours that I cut and pasted into my message was:
"This type of narrow-minded thinking causes so many unnecessary problems makes the U.S. a laughing stock to the rest of the world."
If you're not saying the problem is uniquely American, why would you say that the rest of the world is laughing at the problem as manifested here in the U.S.?
I said this because of what I hear from friends and old classmates who were born abroad. We we would talk - at times they would go into what people outside the U.S. actually thinks of the U.S. and it's citizens. The U.S. is seen as sort of a big brother or the police - but here it is telling other countries what to do and not to do, but meanwhile it's still plagued with stereotyping and other problems.
Again, my intentions was not to offend you or anyone else.
Wayne wrote:
[I said this because of what I hear from friends and old classmates who were born abroad. We we would talk - at times they would go into what people outside the U.S. actually thinks of the U.S. and it's citizens. The U.S. is seen as sort of a big brother or the police - but here it is telling other countries what to do and not to do, but eanwhile it's still plagued with stereotyping and other problems. ]
As one Australian has sung:
"US Forces give the nod
It's a setback for your country..."
Hopped a diesel to LIC yesterday AM at Jamaica. Much to my dismay, the train went down the main line through Hunterspoint Avenue. Do any
LIC jobs go through the mid-Queens line, or did they eliminate that
when they closed all the stations (Richmond Hill, Penny Bridge, etc).
[Hopped a diesel to LIC yesterday AM at Jamaica. Much to my dismay, the train went down the main line through Hunterspoint Avenue. Do any
LIC jobs go through the mid-Queens line, or did they eliminate that
when they closed all the stations (Richmond Hill, Penny Bridge, etc).]
No, some of them still use the mid-Queens route (technically known as the Queens portion of the Montauk line). There's a train originating in Patchogue that follows the route stopping in Jamaica about 8:15, usually on Track One. There's something particularly interesting about this train. Because it's a bi-level, it has to use the sole high platform at LIC, which is located near the western end of the yard. As a result, when you leave the train you get to walk right through the middle of the yard to reach the main exit, which certainly isn't the sort of opportunity one gets everyday. And the Montauk line through Queens is itself quite interesting. It offers a mix of scenery: the Morris Park diesel yards, the run through Forest Park (which seems like the middle of nowhere), residential areas in Glendale, the Fresh Pond freight yard, and finally the Maspeth and Long Island City industrial areas.
I believe according to the current schedule, 4 trains per day in each direction use this branch. This past summer, I rode the line from Jamaica to LIC in the head end. It easily ranks among the most interesting rides on the LIRR.
I boarded the BMT at Brooklyn Borough Hall today. An electronic sign said that N trains ran every 8 minutes (7.5 per hour), that M trains ran every 10 minutes (6 per hour) and that R trains ran every 10 minutes (6 per hour). That's a lot less than even a few years ago, and well below the capacity of the Montigue Tunnel. The schedule the MTA just deleted had 10 N and 9 R trains at rush hour, along with the 6 M trains, for 25.
There seems to be a low fewer D and Q trains as well. The Hub Bound data show the number of trains over the Manhattan Bridge from 8 a.m. to 9 a.m. falling from 28 in 1994 to 22 in 1996. The number of trains over the Williamsburg Bridge fell from 20 in 1993 to 14 in 1996. Total trains in Brooklyn fell from 157 in 1994 to 146 in 1996.
Where did all the B division cars go?
[There seems to be a low fewer D and Q trains as well. ]
No kidding, there's a lot fewer. It's not uncommon now that I have to wait up to 20 minutes during a weekday for one of these trains! The MTA significantly cut down on service this year so that they could show a surplus and then make people happy by saying that they're going to extend service on a number of lines when actually they're just going to be renewing service levels of a few years ago, and not even fully at that.
Maybe the MTA wants to save wear and tear on the Manhattan Bridge by running fewer trains, so the powers that be can say it really doesn't need to be replaced after all.
If you wait for 20 minutes during a weekday, there is a delay in service. The mid-day schedule is a D train every 10 minutes, a Q train every 10 minutes. That translates to a train at most stations every 5 minutes on average.
True they have been closed long ago. I just have to ask, I'm wondering, were there lavatories at each station at one time? Or was it random?
Actually, there is at least one lavatory open and available
for customers at all times in each station. They are located
at either end of the station, just beyond where the tiles end.
If you see a small swinging yellow door that says something about
tracks, that's the stall door. BYOTP.
Of course I'm kidding, and I do not advocate entering upon
or crossing the tracks.
AFAIK all subway stations built as part of the original
B(r/m)T, IRT or IND lines had passenger restrooms. Not sure
about some of the recent additions such as Archer Ave, 63 St or
even 57/6.
57/6 definitely had lavatories when it opened in 1968. Unlike those that had existed in most stations, these were outside the fare-paid area. I remember using the mens' room there some time in the 1970s; it was in pretty good shape.
I believe both of the out of service stations we visited on "Day One on the IRT" earlier in the year had had rest rooms. (91st Street? west side; 18th Street east side)
Unfortunately, the lack of rest rooms is another example of something for nothing at work. They passed a state law that said you can't charge for restrooms. But since people can't afford to provide something for nothing, public restrooms disappeared. Restrooms have to be cleaned, stocked, and given what can happen in NYC, attended.
They should simply ignore the law and put the stations out to bid, just like they should ignore the law that bans the use of our buses as charters during off-peak hours (and just like they ignore the law forbidding additional private vans, and the laws which make it impossible to open new health clubs in NYC legally, etc.).
When I was in Tokyo a few years ago, I was impressed that every station had a free, clean, and safe restroom... and most were NOT within the paid-fare zone, so available to the general public by just entering the station.
The Atlanta GA subway has a small restroom at each station for the use of one passenger at a time. The stations are under camera surviellence so access to the restroom is controlled. The restroom door is kept locked to minimize illegal activity, i.e. prostitution, drug sales, robbery,etc.. To use it you pick up the security phone adjacent to the restroom door, talk to the security officer and he buzzes you in.
As I mentioned in my post describing my recent visit, my train was stopped at Wall St. for a few minutes. While we were waiting there, I noticed the mens room at that station (Contract 2) with a VERY VISIBLE mosaic over the door announcing its presence, and a VERY VISIBLE padlock announcing its status. :)
Here in Chicago, I don't think that there are ANY public restrooms on the rapid transit. However, most of the old L stations never had them, and the newer portions of the system were built without them. As to employee washrooms, the modern station agent booths, installed original on the O'Hare and DanRyan lines and retrofitted in many other stations, have a tiny washroom built in. The station agent actually has to pass through the bathroom to get into the booth!
I recall using a men's room in the paid area of a station of the State St. subway in the late 1960s. I fear that these no longer exist, or are closed off and no longer accessible.
[They should simply ignore the law and put the stations out to bid, just like they should ignore the law that bans the use of our buses as charters during off-peak hours (and just like they ignore the law forbidding additional private vans, and the laws which make it impossible to open new health clubs in NYC legally, etc.).]
Larry, no discussion of illegal activities on this message board.
Some restrooms are still open such as New Utrecht (B/N), Boro Hall (2/3/4/5/N/R/M), Stillwell. many of these are used by homeless and are often torn up with broken fixtures. The problem is that they would have to have a tough cop stationed at each restroom for the entire length they are open. The rest became employee locker rooms-many still with the fixtures in place, storgae rooms (still with dfixtures in some cases), or a unisex (one employee at a time) employee restroom and based on signage and fixtures you knew what the original use was.
Even the employee restrooms in many stations, too many to list, are barbaric-we walk through water, holes in the wall and floor, no modesty doors and partitions, etc.
I am sure Steve, Bill and some others will verify this post is true.
I am not complaining- the public must come first. Most stations do have an employee restroom.
As an example of what will happens look at the PATH level public restrooms at WTC--the homeless have taken over and the cops dont even try to remove them anymore. Penn is also the same way.
***disclaimer:opinions are my own and not those of MTA or NYCT***
Isn't that one of the reasons that they are beyond the fare-control area? And don't most end-of-line stations (South Ferry being one exception) have facilities?
A couple of thoughts. First, outside of those for employees, who by nature are captives to the system in several respects, are lavatory facilities for the public really necessary? Here in Phila I can't think of too many subway/el stations that have such facilities, or ever had them. The only one I can definitely say has this is 69th Street Terminal, and even these are only open during very restricted hours on weekdays.
Second, on the IRT fan trip back in September, the public restroom at Parkchester-177th was available for those needing to partake (the crew room facilites were also made available, but some of us took advantage of the public version). I found it remarkably clean and vandalism-free, with fixtures there and working, at least on the men's side. Is this an unusual situation or did NYCT crews do a special job knowing the fan trip was going to happen (and given the realities we all face, could this special treatment even occur)?
Gary,
Yes the Transit Authority does "prepare" for trips or visits. I have seen many hours of power washing, painting, concrete repair, lighting replaced, etc... for special visits. If the Mayor of NY was to come to kick off some new program in the subway, these transformations would take place overnight. How do I know? I was the Transit cop who would be fixed (sometimes with several others) on the station to make sure that it stayed in "mint" condition, at least untill the visit was over. That is not to say this is the norm. I have seen countless hours of hardwork on behalf of the transit workers to make the station look good for the general public. I spent 8 1/2 hours a day on patrol and seen the transformation. Ask any New Yorker who has not been in the subway in 5 years to take a ride. They would not recognize the system today. The problem with the public bathrooms is also one of crime. It is hard enough to prevent a robbery on an open platform or train, no less an enclosed bathroom. That's really being caught with your pants down. Not to mention the lewd and illegal conduct that also took place in the bathrooms. They also became "home" to the homeless. I know what it's like to have to leave the station and "beg" a storeowner (in full uniform I might add) to use their bathroom. Its a inconveince yes, but makes for a safer environment.
Just my opnion,
"Joe Buff" a.k.a.
"Transit Buff"
Crime, vandalism, intimidating and anti-social behavior would all be problems for subway lavatories. But not if they were ATTENEDED by someone well paid enough to be on the ball enough to prevent these, calling in the cops if and when necessary. Subway lavatories would also be filthy, unless they were attended by someone who enforced rules, and cleaned frequently and thoroughly. USABLE subway lavatories would be EXPENSIVE, and not worth diverting money from other aspects of customers service, raising fares, raising taxes, cutting wages, etc.
If offered on a FOR-PAY basis, however, all those problems disappear. Drug dealers, prostitutes, etc. would not hang out in the restrooms if they had to pay to get in, and got hasseled out every ten minutes. The cost to non-users would be minimal. Crime would be less frequent when observed by an attendent. The restrooms could be located outside the fare-paid area, to serve the general public. And yes, they could be cleaned. If the TA offered to allow businesses to bid for the right to renovate, and operate, public restrooms for a charge, would anyone bid? I think so. How about if the TA renovated the restrooms, and just charged rent, and they offered them. I'm sure that would work.
Unfortunately, 30 year ago our state legislators generously gave use free restrooms, by forbidding anyone from charging. I'm sure we are all grateful, since they required other people to give us something for nothing. Maybe we should track them down, drop on our knees, and lick their shoes for their generosity. Except for the fact that now we get nothing. Even where public restrooms are provided free, there is no incentive to put any money into them, so they are horrid.
Larry, unfortunately, the "pay toilet" wouldn't deter the "homeless" from living there. They would merely find/beg for a dime/quarter/whaterever get in the stall and then "hibernate" there till springtime!
One approach that is getting to be quite common these days -- and not too pleasant, I might add -- is that of the stall-less toilet. Yes, this deters the homeless from "nesting", but the commuter/average Joe has to do his/her number without privacy.
Sadly, this is what one has to face if toilets are to be re-introduced into the transit system.
cya, Doug
P.S. Wasn't it comedian George Carlin who said in the 70s: 'the New York subway system IS the world's largest mobile bathroom'?
I think the #6 line crews were especially happy to see a group of passengers who actually enjoyed the subway system, rather than the regularly often hostile passenger who would rather not ride the subway at all.
I waited countless hours to guarantee a ride on a Redbird. 'Course with the R-110's running on the Brighton Line and Slant Q's (traverse cab on back) on the express the opportunities are non-existant on my usual commute. Tonight I'm planning a marathon run on the L to see the new token booth installed at the Canarsie station, I hear they're using the '83 MTA logo for old time's sake!
Michael
P.S. I want to create a discussion group for Gay or Bi subway fans.
If there is any interest, please email me @ msweisbur@su.edu
We don't (at least I don't) take S.O. into account for purposes of these discussions. All people who wish to discuss transit issues are free to post here as long as they observe the rules of Online Etiquette. I hope you enjoyed your ride on the L. For Redbirds, get off at Atlantic and find a 2 or 5 train on the IRT. Love those Slant R40s on the Q (and on the L too)!
Wayne
I had a chance to vist the Transit Museum today. Car G is now there and in good condition.Its so old though it makes the BU's look young.
Flat Car OF 125 was also there and there was a mockup of a subway car bearing the number 6301 taking up about 2/3 of the length of the flat.
Is this the mockup for the R-142's?
The Transit Museum Gift Shop in Grand Central Terminal is not yet open but they have moved a few sales tables outside the shop and are selling some books and transit memorabilia from them,but I did not
see any subway or bus maps for pickup.
Redbird
Yes, that is a mock-up of the R142s though I don't know if they will look exactly like that once delivered. I think there will be some subtle changes in the interior details. From my info (Joe Korman) the unit numbers will run from 6301 to 6980, eclipsing the R16 and R17 fleets and breaking some new ground. The R142A will have higher numbers, starting at 7211. (6981-7210 are for the option end of the R142 order; there's an option for 100 additional R142A as well).
Wayne
This is the mockup for the R142s. Actually, the model has been there for a couple months, so it's quite old (I'm a tour guide, I should know!). One of my pictures is on this site (interior shot). The model was on display in 1997 at 130 Livingston St (TA Headquarters). TA personnel were trying to promote the car. They wanted to know what the folks thought of it. There were mixed reviews....
The R142s are scheduled to arrive sometime in 1999, spelling the end of the REDBIRDS.
The R142 mockup will be departing the Museum soon, go back to the yard, and most probably be taken apart.
Happy New Year,
Constantine Steffan
Will the R-143 mockup then be moved there? I was s upset when I missed that at 207th. I thought it was going to be the 142 mockup again, so I skipped it. (The poster didn't say it was a new one)
Sorry, Eric. That seems unlikely that the R143 will be here. I'll check anyway. My understanding is the car will go out and the diesel locomotive sitting on A1 (Rockaway Bound) track in front of the D-Types will be pushed back over to A2 (Manhattan Bound trk) and placed in front of Money Car G.
Best Wishes,
Constantine Steffan
Took a day completely off and traveled with a friend to NYC to take in a show. With some time free we rode a few subway lines and were generally impressed!
Itinary:
50th St. Lower to Lexington (E) R-32
GCT to Atlantic (4) R-62
Pacific to Stillwell (B) R-68
Stillwell to Jay (F) R-46
Jay to 34th (A) R-46
34th to 50th (1) R-62
50th to 34th (1) R-62
Observed three interesting events:
4 train was held at Wall St. due to disabled train ahead with brakes in emergency. Several detailed announcements were made with above information. Delay was less than five minutes.
While F train was awaiting departure at Stillwell car cleaner entered car, observed a 'tag' on a door window, and immediately removed same.
When F train arrived W. 8th St. motorman exited cab and announced that there might be a delay due to trouble ahead. He heard a radio message, re-entered cab and proceeded immediately. There was no delay.
Overall everything gets high marks, especially the BMT-IND which I hadn't ridden for some years. Cars were almost spotless, despite it being evening rush on a rainy day! Stations were clean, well lit, and unlike in Boston, bear a semblence to their original architecture.
Observed no dark cars, mismatched accelleration rates or poor operation. R-38 cars rode particularly well. R-46 ride was a bit bouncy but not objectionable. Scratchitti seems to be the biggest visual negative. PA Systems were seldom effective - either too soft or too loud. The announcement of 'X' for Avenue X and so forth seemed quite harsh and hard to understand on the R-46 with the loud PA.
Full width cabs used different methods to block car lights from cab door. R-62 had plastic tint applied to glass, which was partially peeled back allowing some unobstructed viewing. R-46 had glass spray-painted - heavy runny globs in some spots. Both methods left something to be desired, from an asthetic point of view rather than a railfan one.
Overall the system seems to be getting the job done. Didn't get on a C or D so I didn't get a chance to see any of Steve's work, but compared to the last time I did any extended riding, the system was far better.
Gerry
While riding the #5 Lexington Av Thru-Exp today I noticed the builders plate on R-26 7760 reading "St Louis Car Co.Builders, Morris-Knudsen, Rebuilders." Do you think we should tell the good people at M-K that the R-26's were built by ACF.
Redbird
According to my records, R26 and R28 were built in 1959 by St. Louis Car Company. The R21s were the last IRT cars built by ACF. The R22 were also St.Louis Car.
Here's a quickie list:
WFLV StL 1938
R12 ACF 1948
R14 ACF 1949
R15 ACF 1950
R17 ACF 1955
R21 ACF 1957
R22 StL 1957
R26 StL 1959
R28 StL 1959
R29 StL 1961
R33 StL 1963
R36 StL 1964
R62 Kaw 1985
R62A Bom 1986
R130 Kaw 1993 (aka R110A)
R134 Bom 1994 (work motors)
R142 Kaw 1999
R142A Bom 2000
Wayne
Wayne: I know,but it seems Morris-Knudsen doesn't.
Best wishes, Redbird
Wayne, According to the Revenue & Non-Revenue Car Drawing book, some of your data is incorrect. This is according to sheet #1 of the book.
R-17, 21, and 22 were built by St. Louis Car Co.
R-26 & R-28 were built by ACF
You are absolutely right - I went back to Master Numbers Book #2 and there it was - R17, R21 and R22 all StL and R26, R28 - ACF.
But it's wrong in Book 5 and Book 7. Needless to say this is going to get corrected right now. Thanks. I don't know how I got this info mixed up but sorry for any incorrect info given out.
Wayne
Wayne: The R-17,21 and 22 were built by St Louie. The R-26 and R-28 were the last cars built by ACF (unless we mention the WF Monorail) .
After that ACF became American Machine and Foundry (AMF). Apparently M-K used a standard plate for all rebuilds and wasn't aware that some of the cars were built by ACF and not St Louis.
Best Wishes,Redbird
[Wayne: The R-17,21 and 22 were built by St Louie. The R-26 and R-28 were the last cars built by ACF (unless we mention the WF Monorail) .
After that ACF became American Machine and Foundry (AMF). Apparently M-K used a standard plate for all rebuilds and wasn't aware that some of the cars were built by ACF and not St Louis.]
Redbird,
Are you sure about ACF becoming AMF? Last I checked, ACF was in the freight car business, and AMF was very much a separate company. I believe the World's Fair monorail was an AMF product.
David
Dave: That's correct. The monorail was built by AMF.I do believe though that ACF became AMF though I can't document it. Perhaps they merged with someone or formed some kind of subsidiary.Regards,Redbird
ACF did remain in the rail business though no longer building passenger cars. It is interesting however that the carbuilders wanted orders on the magnitude ot the TA's but eventually such orders put them out of the business.
ACF R-28
StLC R-44
P-S R-46
Only Budd (R-32) survived to fail somewhere else.
Of course Boston has also sunk a few carbuilders - such as
Newburyport
Wason
Laconia
Pullman Standard of Worcester (Osgood Bradley)
Boeing Vertol
The days of small lots of cars have passed, and the tooling costs and experiments in new technology can sink a bigger order. (Rockwell built the defective trucks for the R-46 but Pullman-Standard absorbed the fallout)
Pullman Standard was building the Superliners for AMTRAK at the same time they were building the R46. P/S took a financial hit on them too.
Boston didn't sink Boeing-Vertol, the US Standard LRV did. Memo to the airframe industry - stay out of the railcar business - every airframe builder that did is now out - the aforementioned B-V, plus Rohr - they even tried bus building - and got out of that, too
Note--Boeing the parent is still very much in business courtesy of the Feds--DOD/ et al, and also built a decent batch of L cars for CTA. These were apparently serviceable as their key design features were spec'd by CTA based on good experience. Unfortunately for Boston and especially San Francisco, the LRV's were a disaster. Some of this was just dumb design, some poor choice of materials. etc. Sadly two cities were unable to pick a better vendor and got stuck with junk. Rehabbed PCC's are outperforming the LRV's in SF--and the new LRV-2's by Breda seem to have major teething tantrums. It may be that the last really good cars built for the TA were the 32's (yea BUDD) and the 40's although the slant ends are an eerie reminder of the insane BART cars. I remember them as delivered and they pioneered locked end doors because of the immense porches.
I clearly remember the "A" end doors being locked when I first saw the Slant R40s back in 1968. The porches you describe have been made safer with the addition of safety railings and gates between the "A" ends; I believe the railings were added around 1971 or so, give or take a year or two. The pantograph gates were added later. Aesthetically this is murder on the eyes, but these car ends are about as safe as they come. I can't picture a Slant R40 without these additions nowadays. One thing they haven't done (yet) is to put grab bars on the "B" ends (like they have on almost every other type of 51-foot and 60-foot car) so crossing between "B" ends of any R40 (Slant or 40M) is ill-advised.
Here's a question - did Budd build the 140 or so M-3 cars delivered to the LIRR in the 1980's? If not, who did? I think Budd still builds tractor-trailer truck bodies, but I could be wrong. As for the R32s, they are indestructible - they should see 50 years service if they are maintained properly.
Wayne
Hi Wayne! Happy New Year.
I used to be a mechanical designer for Budd back in the 80's.
We produced many, many semi-trailers, flatbeds, containers and chassis's at that time. In 1985 an idiot named Bill Thayer took our
"failing" company over, ran it for 3 years, and then ran the company out of money and ultimately out of business in late 1987.
So the bottom line is "Budd" does not make truck trailers no mo'.
Chuck Greene
Wayne, In the "Revenue & Non-Revenue Car Drawing Manual" it was noted that R-40 Slants 4250 - 4349 were originally delivered as 4350 - 4449. Also R-40M cars 4450 - 4517 were delivered as 4250 - 4317. The renumbering was done in 1971. (do your books reflect the re-numbering?) There was no notations about when the high rails being added to the slants but the original drawings do show that they were delivered with pantograph gates. The R-40M drawings do not show the pantographs, however.
Yes I have notations regarding the renumberings. Only my first notebooks and Master Numbers Book #1 show the former R40 and R40M numbers. The notebooks also contain some of the Brake Test R40M numbers (AS19, CB22, etc.) that were from late 1969. Master Numbers Book #2 and forward contain the current unit numbers.
Maybe (original numbers) 4318 thru 4349 were the brake test cars?
These were certainly R40Ms. I saw them on the "EE" train almost exclusively.
Also - R40M #4501 has a notation stating that she is wearing parts from Slant R40 #4201 due to their respective collisions; maybe we could verify this.
Wayne
Wayne, my understanding was that R40m 4501 was wearing parts from slant R40 4200, not 4201.
Perhaps Steve could clarify this....
Cheers,
Constantine Steffan
I put down #4201 as the donor car for #4501 because #4200's "A" end was pretty badly mashed up - (see the photo in the R40 gallery) unless #4201 got banged up as well? I'll amend the comment next to #4501 (R40.123) to read #4200 - Steve has indicated that he doesn't have data on that at the moment.
Speaking of R40M's: Did you see Steve's photo of #4461 taken on her hospital bed - in the R40 gallery? Her face is a mess - maybe they've
made some progress since then.
Thanks for the info,
Wayne
Wayne,
It's true that 4200 was mashed up pretty badly, but I believe that her sides were used for 4501 while a new nose was fabricated for the R40M. The nose, I'm sure came from the factory....
-Constantine
Yes, that would certainly make sense in light of the collision damage shown to #4200 - the left side panel around the door (needed to match the fine-grain corrugation of the R40M) looks usable. The nose coming from the factory is probable too - that's where #4612's came from.
Thanks,
Wayne
You are correct. According to my 'Bible', cars 4518 - 4549 were delivered as 4318 - 4349 and had trucks equipped with package (tread brakes) units. I have no data about 4201/4501 but that info is not covered in the book.
Saw your picture of #4461 in the Shop with her "A" end under repair - a nice picture! It is in the R40 gallery. Was it taken recently? How is she doing - are they still working on a new face for her? (she would have been #4261 as originally delivered I believe - must make note in original notebook next to the number)
Thanks,
Wayne
Very observant.. Slant 40s ended at 4449. I don't know how the re-numbering came about but I'd look for the car to come out of Coney Island with either a new number or an R-40M Bonnet. That picture was taken in July when I was in Coney Island to check on the progress of one of my cars which was undergoing a prototype overhaul...
I think 4450-4549 (as originally delivered) were the a/c'd Slant R40s - (they called them R40A?) and they became 4350-4449 as currently numbered. As for #4461- she needs more than just a new bonnet and storm-door - the cab housing, the drop ceiling, a/c unit, interior wall panels and light fixtures - all gone! Not to mention the #1, #2, #15 and #16 door panels and #1 and #8 door frames... This is kind of like what happened to #4612 in 1970 or 1971 when he got tangled up with #3629. I saw that work-in-progress at 207 Street Shoppe back in 1971 and he was in approximately the same shape as #4461 except he didn't have damage to the car sides; just the front end. They had him stripped down to the repaired frame and the bonnet assembly was sitting against the shoppe wall awaiting installation. #4612's been in service since the repair.
No R40M numbers are available currently. R42 numbers (odd) available are 4681, 4685 (mate is paired w/4727), 4715, 4767. Of course they could always renumber her #4951..
Thanks for the information,
Wayne
A close friend, who retired after 43 years, told me of his work in the wreck gang many years earlier. He told me that before the arrival of the stainless steel cars, welding 2 undamaged halves (of collision damaged cars)together to make one good car was the rule rather than the exception. I don't know if these cars ever saw revenue service, however.
If memory serves the second level of safety framing came before I moved west in summer 1970. and yes they were dangerous before--I once saw a patron riding on the porch outside the frames.
The southbound trackway at the former "Broadway-Canal St" station has had the tracks and ties completely removed for most of the length of the station.Also most of the wooden walls have been removed so you can see the tiles. It is still a very dismal place and upstairs at the Centre St Line platforms the situation isn't much better. Are these two stations scheduled for a facelift anytime soon ?
Thanks Redbird
There are plans in the MESA Study for major changes to the Track Layout,alignments,,etc ,re this station
I wonder if this is also related
Steve
Steve: I wonder what changes they could be contemplating? This station was the only part of the Canal Street Subway that was ever built.Northbound from the station the two tracks become the express tracks of the Broadway Subway with crossovers to the local tracks.
Southbound they run directly onto the Manhattan Bridge(south or west side)It two bad they didn't retain the connection to the north side of the bridge even if they would have had to spike the switches as a safety measure. It would have provided an alternate route in case of an emergency.
Regards, Redbird
Which stations are involved? The unused Canal St. Station connecting to the Broadway line? Or the Canal St. Station on the Nassau/Centre St. line? Or both? What is the purpose of any track changes?
Happy New Year!!
Mike Rothenberg
If you think that's bad you should see Chambers Street BMT!
I don't have words to describe it but I will paraphrase this little tidbit: - Stink; Stank; STUNK!*
Bah, Humbug! Ptui! Bring your hard hat and an umbrella. It's appalling!
Wayne
*(courtesy of Theodore Geisel [Dr.Seuss] "How The Grinch Stole Christmas")
Wayne: I used to ride the #15 Jamiaca Local back in the 50's when we visted relatives in Richmond Hill and Chambers Street was nothing to write home about then,dank,dark,dismal. I do recall that thecenter platform was in use during the60's by #10 trains. They would opendoors on both sides and relay on the tail track south of the station. Speaking of dismal stations what about the Bowery.
Regards,Redbird.
I went to Bowery on September 19, 1998, a Saturday morning. I was there from 9:45am to 10:10am and took about eight pictures. My findings? Actually, what got me was the emptiness of the station - there was NOT A SOUL THERE save myself and the station agent, who was in his mezzanine booth. I was ALONE. I found the station to be fairly well lit with flourescent light, on both platforms. The friezes, tile bands (with their Grecian design) and tablets are in good condition in some places, not so good in others. Some water damage is evident, but not nearly on the scale of that at Chambers. There has been some tile erosion due to water as well, but not nearly as bad as, say, Tremont Avenue on the Concourse line. Where the tile is intact, it has been cleaned, and this is more prevalent than you would suspect. Some areas, however, are still grimy with track dust and soot. The east end of the station needs some work. Closed and abandoned exits lend a creepy air to the station, but the platforms around them are well lit. The escalator was kaput. The east mezzanine is lit with incandescent light, with the fixtures set in recessed bowls placed flush with the ceiling, like the north mezzanine at Chambers Street. The Grecian designs and bas-reliefs are fairly intact here. The ambient light is nice; however there are a few flourescents along the walls for accent. I found Bowery to be in better shape than I expected. I give it about 4 (0=Chambers, 10=Astor Place or any recent renovation w/period restoration). Canal Street is decrepit and rates a big fat 2. They really have to do something about the falling tile on both the curtain and side walls. I hear they did the platform surface over but nothing else.
Wayne
[I went to Bowery on September 19, 1998, a Saturday morning. I was there from 9:45am to 10:10am and took about eight pictures. My findings? Actually, what got me was the emptiness of the station - there was NOT A SOUL THERE save myself and the station agent, who was in his mezzanine booth. I was ALONE.]
Last I heard, Bowery station had fewer than 100 entering riders a day. That's by far the lowest of any Manhattan system and indeed the lowest systemwide except for a couple of A stations in the Rockaways. Dean Street on the Franklin Shuttle had about the same numbers yet was closed a few years ago for low ridership. I truly can't figure out why Bowery hasn't been closed.
Peter --
Do you recall when/where you saw the stats on ridership by station? I've always been curious about such numbers.
Thanks for any info,
Chuck
> Dean Street on the Franklin Shuttle had about the same numbers yet
> was closed a few years ago for low ridership. I truly can't figure
> out why Bowery hasn't been closed.
Did Dean St have a fire or something about the platform being in such bad shape someone fell through it??
--Mark
>> Dean Street on the Franklin Shuttle had about the same numbers yet
>> was closed a few years ago for low ridership. I truly can't figure
>> out why Bowery hasn't been closed.
>Did Dean St have a fire or something about the platform being in such >bad shape someone fell through it??
I don't know about a fire, but the wooden platforms at Dean Street were so rotten they actually had large holes in them. Someone easily could have fallen through.
There are some pictures of Dean Street on this site - look under "Farewell to the R-30" or something similar.
> There are some pictures of Dean Street on this site - look under
> "Farewell to the R-30" or something similar.
Ha! Those pix are mine! I actually took some at Dean St in the former off-limits area of the platform where you could have easily fallen through.
--Mark
Um, the Franklin Shuttle pictures that are in the R30 fan trip section are all from Park Place. There aren't any from Dean Street. (Dean St. has two side platforms. The first three pictures on
http://www.nycsubway.org/r30trip/brighton.html are all from a center platform which has to be Park Place.) Sorry Mark! :-)
-Dave
It's been a while since I've been on the Nassau St. subway, but it always seemed to be depressing. Don't forget: the section from Essex St. to Chambers St. is the oldest BMT subway segment in the city; it predated the Dual Contracts and took five years to complete.
Brooklyn Bridge station has been fixed up nicely. Chambers St. is literally right next door and is dilapidated. Go figure.
Steve: The Bowery used to be called the "Street of Forgotten Men." I think we could apply this epithet to the train station there. As several sub talkers have already remarked it is a very lonely station.
I recall when the # 14 was still running and all four tracks were in use. Only Essex Street seems to have gotten something of a face lift.Regards,Redbird
Ah, yes, the Bowery flophouses with beds for 20 cents per night.
The middle tracks at Bowery lead to the deadend tracks at Canal St., don't they? If I'm not mistaken, the #14 terminated at Canal St., and then it ran only during rush hours.
That's right.# 14 trains arrived and departed Canal St from what we would call the northbound exp track as there was only a single switch north of the station. Trains were no longer using the southbound exp track at Canal St in the 1960's. If one had arrived there it would have had to do a double reverse move north of the station to leave. I don't know when they stopped using the southbound track but it may have been in the early 50's.Regards,Redbird
Wait a minute, Wayne. You give Chambers Street a 0, which is somewhat fair, but you give Canal, a station so decrepit it isn't even functional a 2? Somethings wrong here...
I was reeeeeeaallly stretching it by giving Canal J/M/Z station a 2.
It is on my list of ten worst stations. By the way, Bowery is not.
Other really ratty stations:
De Kalb Avenue (D/M/N/Q/R)
Lawrence Street (M/N/R)
191st Street(1/9)
Atlantic Avenue (D/Q)
Flushing Ave (G)
Tremont Ave (B/D)
Times Square (1/2/3/9)
42nd Street (A/C/E)
59th Street (A/B/C/D)
Wayne
Got to be some 4th Avenue stations on such a list.
BTW, it seems that the elevated/embankment/open cut stations are not as bad. No such stations are your list of the worst, nor on mine.
Yes, 59th Street-4 Ave is mighty mungey - I'll include it as well.
36th Street has undergone a facelift and a compleat re-glaze (they did a superb job on those tiles) Pacific Street (once was on the list) has been prettied up as well. The local stops are not all that bad - not great but not among the worst. Union Street in particular has been refurbished (with those wacky murals).
The only elevated stations I had on my list were:
Dean Street (gone), Park Place (under renovation), Franklin Avenue (ditto), Sutter Avenue (hallelujah - it's been fix'd up some) and
Central Avenue (M) (paint job & new lites so it's not TOO bad).
I've been to Bowery recently (last Sept. 19). It's off the 'worst' list but it still needs some work. The cleaning of the wall/curtain wall tiles has helped. It is a lonely place but I don't agree with those who have advocated closing it.
Wayne
>>I've been to Bowery recently (last Sept. 19). It's off the 'worst' list but it still needs some work. The cleaning of the wall/curtain wall tiles has helped. It is a lonely place but I don't agree with those who have advocated closing it.
I think Bowery's pretty cool, too, but given the low use level I can't advocate sinking any real money into the place, unless it could be proven that fixing the station up would attract customers; which I can't see, given the proximity of Grand Street and Spring Street with their direct access to midtown. I don't want to see it closed, but I can't think of many reasons to keep it open. Like that of York Street (which was discussed here a few months ago), the station's location reflects pre-war use patterns, when that corner of the Lower East Side was even more densely inhabited and the Bowery itself a busy light-manufacturing district. These days it's obviously not much of a destination for Eastern Division commuters, and Grand Street has stolen the neighborhood traffic.
I was on a Brooklyn-bound M a few years ago with some guy across the aisle regaling his companion with (utterly fictional) horror stories about the Williamsburg lines; he claimed Bowery was so terrifying that conductors would refuse to open the doors there late at night....
[Other really ratty stations:
42nd Street (A/C/E) ]
Why? 42nd has been rebuilt in recent years and seems physically in good condition.
Yes, I will agree that they have done a fine job of fixing up the mezzanine area (42nd/8th), but the only thing they've done is put a new surface on the platform. The wall tile there is HIDEOUS. And the ceiling needs paint. They need to do what they did at Chambers/Canal/7th Avenue/B'wayLafayette - new pre-fab tile panels are seriously in order at 42nd/8th.
Wayne
42nd and eighth will always suffer from a problem the designers created back in the late 1920s when they opted to split the northbound and southbound platforms. That allowed the IND to essintally have a four-block long station running from 40th to 44th, but it means most of the passengers waiting for the express trains will forever be staring off into the dark abyss of the other side of the tracks.
It's kind of fun to watch the downtown A roar past (especially in the R-10 days) while you're on the uptown platform, but it does limit what the MTA can ever do about sprucing up the station. The same holds true for the local stops between 72nd and 116th -- you're always looking at the blank back wall of the express track (and boy, we're those stations loud back in the 60s and 70s when the A zoomed past before they put the noise dampeners in).
It is not so bad where the tunnel walls are exposed at 42nd St/8th Avenue - my pet peeve is the white tile with the yucky purple band, which is in sad, sad, sad shape. Grant it has been there for 50-plus years, but it appears that they have made no effort to keep it in shape (water leaks? vibration erosion etc?) The same is true at 14th St-8th Avenue, where there are no fewer than five different shades of yellow/gold/yellow-orange/orange-yellow/orange in the tile band, no doubt they've patched it umpteen times. There are hints of renovation there; my guess is that sooner or later there will be panel tile with a gold band and brick-red border (like they have in the mezzanine). If they did at 42nd Street what they did at the Chambers Street-H&M (WTC) station on the "A" line, the station would look a whole lot better.
Wayne
Come on now. My old "home station" doesn't look that bad. It seems a bit strange to not see the stairways to the lower level anymore.
I'll admit that I didn't initially comprehend the platform arrangement at 42nd St. when we started boarding (A) trains there in 1967. I remember the first time I saw an uptown AA lumbering and moaning past the downtown platform, and couldn't understand why a local was skipping a station. A few weeks later, we were heading uptown on - what else? - an A train, and as we left 34th St., I looked over at the local track and it finally made sense. It was about that same time that the entire concept of local vs express sank in, too. Once I figured out that A trains didn't stop at 23rd St. while AA and E trains did, I was hooked on the A train and express trains in general for life. Hence, the making of an express addict.
P. S. Maybe a few slant R-40s will wind up on the A....
Well, I guess that they *could* put a nicer looking wall on the far side of the far track at these "one - sided" platforms. But that would be a bit extravagent.
Better - put a wall between the tracks. That would really keep the Ctrl Park West stations quiet. It would suck for us railfans, though.
On the whole, I'd rather see them spend the money on improved ventilation, though.
H\In terms of noise, the IND Eighth Ave. line definitely was the worst-designed line on the entire system, with the local stops along CPW (I'm guessing they did it tht was so they would'nt have the uptown platform entrances on the same side as the park), and the 42nd and Eighth stop. Chambers-WTC isn't as bad, since the E train slowly clunks in and out of the terminal station while it passes the A platform.
Between the noise abatement on the IND and the water spray on the screetchiest sections of the IRT, the MTA has done a better job of cutting the decibles in recent years, though it would be nice if they'd allow the trains to get back up to their pre-1980s speeds on the express runs.
Today's rolling stock is quieter as a whole, IMHO, so curtain walls wouldn't really be necessary. Keep in mind that the older rolling stock was noisier to an extent, with the R-10s being the noisiest. You knew when an A train was coming when you were standing on the uptown platform at 81st St. The roar of the R-10s was deafening.
BTW, the 4th Ave. line does have curtain walls at local stations between the local and express tracks between the Manhattan Bridge and 36th St. The walls are even tiled at the stations themselves; the tiles are still visible at the abandoned Myrtle Ave. station.
There is another reason for this-- the platforms are extra wide and theis was the only weay short of making a wider tunnel.
The platforms are extra wide to handle the passenger load.
The Broadway and IRT stations have been under reconstruction for four years. The work was slowed when the contractor caused a building to collapse. The lower level station is used as a passsage and will get new tiles, eventually.
What exactly did the contractor do to cause a building to collapse? It may sound like a dumb question, but it piqued my curiosity. Would it qualify for a Darwin award, or was it a case of "Oops!!"
Using a process called jet grouting, which creates a column of concrete by cutting the soil with a high-pressure water jet. The concrete pump failed but the jetting continued. This caused a void under the building which weakened the foundation. The building had to be torn down.
Yes the building (on the NE corner of Canal & Lafayette) is gone but the area around the intersection is still a bluddy mess. At least it was last time I went to Pearl...
Wayne
Why were the tracks in the canal street station removed?
On the southbound platform of the Centre St. J station at Canal St., a nice reconstruction has been done with the mosaics cleaned up and new white tiles done over the older ones - a bit tacky, but not as much as what's been done at some IND stations, with their pre-fab panels. The northbound platform is still untouched. I refuse to go through the old B and D platform, as it's so dirty and hokey. I half expect a rat, mouse, or mugger to confront me. It's a worse situation than the Chambers St. station on the Centre St. loop, which could be one of the grandest stations in the system, given its lofty ceilings.
On the 6 line's northbound platform, a pre-fab panel was placed on the wall towards the front of the station about 2 years ago. Also, there's lots of spray paint markings done by the workers who'll redo the station. I guess the building collapse might be responsible for the lack of progress here.
on the lower platform (Bridge platform) past the plywood near the J stairts, I have seen homeless.(I told the cops who did nothing! When I came back 8 hours later same cops, same homeless)
Dear friends; would anyone know of a newgroup for transit matters call www.nyc.transit or something like it.I don't think its affiliated with any agencies. Thanks in advance for this and previous help.
Redbird
Try this: News:NYC.transit
Many thanks,Redbird
Gary: I've made severalattempts and can't get through to this web site. Have you ever used it and would youknow who runs it. Thanks again, Redbird
It's not a web site, and no one runs it.
It's a *newsgroup*. Ask your ISP how to access them. Chances are you have to set a news server in your browser preferences (probably "news.yourisp.com"). Then you should be able to access it.
Just because most browsers (NS & IE) can access newsgroups doesn't make them web sites.
Or try this: go to www.dejanews.com. Under search put the newsgroup address--news:nyc.transit.
Gary: Thank you very much. I am newly come to this computer business and the difference between a web site such as this and a newsgroup were not entirely clear to me. Again,thanks.Redbird
Thank you very much to all for the help.
Redbird
I tried the News:NYC.Transit
---was unable to bring that up,,is that the correct format
Steve
I'm on aol, and I can only get to that or any other newsgroup by following the links through the "internet" icon. It can't be typed in anywhere. I don't know how the other browswer access them.
You also can access nyc.transit (or just about any other newsgroup) through the Web by using DejaNews (www.dejanews.com)
nyc.transit is not a website, it's a newsgroup. You need a program such as Microsoft News to access it. I think it's a free download from Microsoft's website.
Redbird asked for a Newsgroup.
"Dear friends; would anyone know of a newgroup for transit matters call www.nyc.transit or something like it.I don't think its affiliated with any agencies. Thanks in advance for this and previous help"
I think what you are talking about is the newsgroup easily found in AOL called alt.nyc.transit You can get to it from AOL. If you aren't on AOL, try www.dejanews.com, and the newsgroup is called nyc.transit
jeremy
On this site for example at the Crescent St. Station on the J/M/Z line. It says that the mezzanine was removed. Why was this done? Are there other stations like this?
They remove mezzanines from elevated stations for various purposes, usually it's to give more clearence to the street below.
-Hank