Due to security concerns the Transit Museum has suspended the following tours ion addition to those already suspended:
Union Square Station Wednesday Tours
Command Center Wednesday Tours
For those who missed the other cancellations they are:
Day One on the IRT
City Hall Station Wednesday Tour
The Wednesday Tours are held each Wednesday of the month around Noon. The only one left is the power center (The Electric Slide) and in my personal opinion I expect that to be the next victim.
I'm not exactly sure what the security risk here is. Terrorism? If that is the case - why does anyone feel that getting rid of tours of abandoned stations is worthwhile - a terrorist would rather blow up a jam packed station (say, times square, or penn) than an abandoned one...
I think the point is that the transit museum is under city hall.
[I think the point is that the transit museum is under city hall.]
The former City Hall IRT station is under City Hall. There have been plans floating around for opening a Transit Museum branch there, but so far nothing's been done.
Why "security concerns" should result in cancellation of the Union Square tours is beyond me. Union Square is nowhere close to City Hall. Come to think of it, these "security concerns" sound a lot like the products of a paranoid imagination than anything grounded in reality.
Perhaps the logical response is to write letters and/or make phone calls. Show the city of New York the power of subway enthusiasts!
Why "security concerns" should result in cancellation of the Union Square tours is beyond me. Union Square is nowhere close to City Hall. Come to think of it, these "security concerns" sound a lot like the products of a paranoid imagination than anything grounded in reality."
I agree with you that there is no logical reason to cancel tours of Union Square station. However, on the "products of a paranoid imagination," remember that:
1) The World Trade Center conspirators were planning to blow up more than just the WTC.
2) The FBI and other law-enforcement agencies intercept several (needless to say, they won't say how many) terrorist plots every year -- domestic and foreign -- before the plots can be placed into action. They (understandably) like to brag that they do this, but (less understandably considering the public right to know) are very thin on details.
The point is that we don't know what the FBI, NYPD, etc. is telling Rudy and Co. about threats to city buildings. Maybe the cancellations are over-reaction, but maybe they aren't, either.
Even paranoid people have some real fears. If we let it get the best of us though we will have to telecommute because we are afraid to go out. Then all we will need to worry about is getting bombed at home.
NYC has so many great things to see. I hope they do not close them all because of fear. Perhaps security is an excuse for not wanting to allow public access behind the scenes to us mere mortals.
When we start changing our life styles, disrupting routines and spending excess amounts of money, time and energy to avoid terrorist activities, the terrorists are winning.
I do believe in safeguards and planning for terrorist activities; but at some point the prudent measures become paranoid reactions. How much sacrifice is enough, and how much is too much?
Personally, I'm a little bit if a risk taker, and would be willing to continue as normal a routine as possible in the face of terrorist threats. BUT, to err on the side of caution is acceptable. Tough choice.
I heard on the last Bronx Els tour that the Command Center tour was cancelled not out of a security issue, but because it got a bad writeup in the press.
--Mark
Maybe there were too many four-letter words being used by personnel. If the Command Center is anything like the way it was portrayed in the original Pelham 1-2-3...
According to the letter sent by Mark Watson, the Transit Museum's Director of Education, to Transit Museum members:
"News Flash! The Transit Museum regrest to inform you that, due to security and public safety concerns expressed by the respective operating personnel, we have had to suspend two of our Wednesday lunchtime tours: 'Union Square Revealed' and 'Command Center Alert.'"
Depsite the wording, I would suspect that the Union Square tour was suspended for safety reasons rather than security reasons. I cannot imagine what safety concerns would exist at the command center.
Has anyone have an update on how the M-4's are doing?
How many cars are on the property at this time out of the planned total of 220? Has the power been fully updated so all M4's can run at once and not M-3 & M-4 mixes? Weekends seem to be mostly M-4's because the headways are far enough apart to allow this.
I was driving under the Market Street El in West Philly yesterday
(Saturday), and saw the reflection of an M-3 ("Almond Joy") in
building windows along Market Street, as a westbound train passed.
I guess the "transistion" is far from complete. We will still see
(and lovelingley remember) the M-3's for a long time to come. A full
deck of M-4's a somewhere in our future!
As of the El fantrip two weeks ago, there were 68 M-4's accepted for service, with about a dozen more on the property. Even on that day, with well-publicized information locally that M-4's were providing all weekend service, we saw at least 3 trains of Budds in service on the line. Of course, 6-car trains of M-4's were in operation, same for Budds, while 4-car trains had been advertised (something must have been going on - perhaps the AIDS walk?).
Yesterday, I saw a train of Budds on the I-95 median portion of the el, which further disproves the weekend M-4 dictum (and Tim saw one also - maybe the same one?).
I have heard from SEPTA sources that there should be half the order on the property and accepted by the end of the year. This would mean that 110 M-4's would be available for service by then. Given the delivery and acceptance schedule to date, this is not impossible. This would also mean that total M-4 service is likely by next fall, meeting SEPTA's last scheduled target of the end of '99 for the retirement of the last Budds.
With all due thanks to Joe Korman, whose information I am merely passing along here, apparently the R142 and R142A unit numbers have been decided on as follows:
R142 and R142A Unit Numbers and Manufacturers
R142 primary order6301-6980Kawasaki680
R142 option order6981-7210Kawasaki230
R142A primary order7211-7610Bombardier400
R142A option order7611-7760Bombardier150
R143 (BMT) order was not listed - I'm going to guess that they will start with 8101 and run to 8316. (100 primary order/116 option order)
Again, thanks to Joe K. for solving this mystery.
Wayne
100 and up was cleared for the new generation of cars byt the renumbering of the R-44s and 46s
The prototype at the Museum was numbered 6301 - I would guess that Joe K has some inside info - anyway, there are only 1200 3-and-4-digit unit numbers available starting w/100 (R62s start with 1301), and the largest contiguous block of numbers does begin at 6260, running all the way up to 7749. The planned orders and option orders are 1460 cars. We will see for sure when the first ones arrive. In the meantime, I have left the series numbers blank in my Master Numbers Book, just to play it safe.
Go to http://www.transportation.bombardier.com/htmen/4_0.htm
for a sneak peek at the R142s.
Wayne
What I was suggesting was that the low numbers will probably be used for the R-143's
Try this web page on the Bombardier cars.
http://www.transportation.bombardier.com/htmen/A1A.htm
Yes, but I can't blow up the GIF image so I can't see what the unit number might be. Is that black area above the storm door for a destination sign or is it just decorative? I'm basing my information on that published by Joe Korman in his JoeKorner, which is usually very reliable info. The prototype was numbered #6301.
We will find out for sure what the new car numbers will be next year.
In the meantime, four new (blank) pages have been been christened in Master Numbers Book Number 7 for the R142 and R142A.
Wayne
Thanks for the confidence. While I won't divulge my sources ;-) they are very reliable.
Any significance to the assignment of a 4-digit car number? I mean - why not number the new tech trains starting with 10000 for example?
--Mark
Maybe their databases have a Car 10K problem. Hahaha. :)
-dave
You've been working too hard, Dave .. :)
Actually, it isn't so far fetched, now that I think of it ....
--Mark
I've never seen a five-digit car number on any URBAN transit system anywhere in the U.S. - AMTRAK's car numbers are all five-digit
(44972, 21250, etc.) - I get the feeling that their computers are set up to handle a four-digit max (we call this PIC X(4)).
I thought the LIRR was going to break 9999 when the M-4's (i THINK that is what they call them) began arriving, but no, they stopped at 9946.
If you want to be technical, the D-types and the Q-cars were five-character car numbers, four numbers and the letter "A" "B" or "C" and the Multi-sections were six characters in some cases (7015A1, 7020B1 etc.) I've only seen three and four-character unit numbers for revenue cars since I've been collecting numbers.
Wayne
Boston's subway fleet (at least on the red line, not sure about the orange and blue lines) have car numbers that are 5 digits (although the first one is always "0" zero). Not sure why they do this but the cars really are marked 0xxxx.
-Dave
I know this isn't entirely kosher for this group, but the first order of Orion buses on NYCT was numbered in the 93xxx range for a short while (I'm not really sure why, except a possible tie to year of manufacture). Since then, the 93 prefix has been dropped and the numbers reverted to xxx. Also, Montreal has buses numbered with five digits, generally hyphenated as xx-xxx.
I can't be sure, but perhaps someone else knows the answer here - my recollection is that Montreal's Metro cars are five digits, similar to the bus numbers. Any better memories here?
In Boston, it appears that all rapid transit cars have a '0' for the first digit. From what I've seen, it goes back to the very first days of the Boston El.
Giving buses the year of manufacture as the first digits is becoming more commonplace, whether it be on school buses or transit buses. I live in Suffolk County and there's a Gillig Phantom bus that goes by my house #9333 and also an Orion (I think) #9617. I wonder what's going to happen when we reach Y2K - 00xx? 2000xx?
If anyone hears what the numbers of the R143 are going to be, do pass it along. What's up with that order, anyway? Any delivery dates?
I do believe this will be an addition to the fleet. Maybe NYCT will do the right thing and pick up the 116-car option order in addition to the 100 planned.
Wayne
There are two buses that matter the most RTS'S 4212 AND 2678
And the reasoning for this absurdity?
-Hank
Why is this an absurdity?Those happen to be my favorite NYCTA RTS'S. If you have a problem with that TOO BAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Im sure you have a favorite car class in the NYCTA. You don't see me questioning you about that.
Entire classes yes, a SPECIFIC bus or 2...that's odd. I mean, my dad will always want an MG (for reasons I won't go into, but you can guess freely) What is so special about a 1985 and 1982 RTS? They're not the first, they're not the last, and by all accounts, not unusual in any way.
BTW, Favorite car class will have to be the R11/34, which I have never rode. For what I have, I'll go with the R38, without the digital sign.
-Hank
At least we agree on something ,I like the non-overhaul R38.
Please explain why
BECAUSE I SAID SO.WOULD YOU BE QUESTIONING ME IF THE NUMBER BEGAN WITH A 9.
Yes.
-Hank
The TA had temporarily bought some V-8 powered suburban style fishbowls for SI express ervice years ago, and these were 5 didit beginning with "0". One was numbered 01100.
Trailways had been using 5 digit numbers, and some of the branches that still survive, such as Adirondack and Carolina, still use them.
In Boston, the Blue Line has FOUR digit numbers, but the Red and Orange Lines have five digit numbers, all with leading zeros as Dave described. In fact at the Seashore Trolley Museum, we have ex-Orange Line car 01000.
Our bus driver (Freddy) can help us here, but I think that some NYCT buses have a fiuve digit number (without a letter).
Not anymore. The 100 series Orions originally were numbered 930xx, and were relettered and repainted shortly after the MTA logo switch to the 1xx series, with the last 2 digits remailing the same.
-Hank
From what I gather, the 1080 R-142s on order are from the two primary orders. This means that if the optional orders are exercised as well, there would then be enough new cars to allow retirement of all the Redbirds. Is that a safe assumption?
Yes - there are 1,395 Redbirds of all varieties currently operating (R26, R28, R29, R33, R33WF, R36ML, R36WF). The entire R142/R142A order totals 1,460 cars, so there would be 65 additional cars (13 units of five each) available - enough for 6 full trains and a shuttle.
Wayne
Since the heavy message traffic this weekend on SubTalk about the F train you know what had to happen to me this morning!!!!
F train arrives Kings Highway local track 7:31am, held with holding lights until 7:33am. We make good time, only two or three times he had to open and close the doors as people held them. 15 minutes to Prospect park, doing goood.
We get to 4th Ave, wait 3 or so minutes: "Next Stop Jay Street. Due to an earlier incident we are going express to Jay Street, Next Stop Jay Street, StepINStandCLEAR...DingDong"
(A G just arrived from 71st st). We pass two F trains as we go over the canal (Strange looks on peoples faces as we pass).
Now this is a first for me, I have never rode express here. Ahh too bad the R46 crew door window is painted black and the little peep hole in the center is covered on the other side, no head end look this trip.
I did like looking at Carroll Street disapearing as we sunk down. A little while later we seem to pass through a station, there was one modern EXIT sign on the south tracks but he place was dirty dingy, hadn't seen the light in a while.
What station was that?? Was it a lower level to another station??
Needless to say we arrive a Jay and from that point on it was CRUSHVILLE. "There is an F train right behind" 4 or 5 times to get the doors close. I guess your normal Monday Morning on the Forever Train.
> there was one modern EXIT sign on the south tracks
> but the place was dirty dingy, hadn't seen the light
> in a while. What station was that?? Was it a lower
> level to another station??
This is the lower level of Bergen St. See this past weekend's threat about the film "Jacob's Ladder" for discussion of it...
-dave
So you ran express on the local track until 4th Ave and then they switched you to the express tracks? Interesting.
--Mark
The F frequently goes express when there are service delays, which there frequenly are, but from Jay to Church only because the G tends to get in the way. Going in I don't get to see the expresses since they bypass Prospect Park station entirely. Going home I have the option of hopping an express and getting off at 7th Ave, and waiting for the local there or just walking home.
Bypassed stations alway oppose an express. I wouldn't mind if (a the G were extended to Church AND b) another local started at Church, so bypassed local stations would still get 12+ trains per hour. Those at Carrol St, however, would not be as well served, since the G goes to Hoyt and not Jay. The lower level was intended for those at 4th Ave, Carrol, and Smith/9th to change from the local G to the express F onto Jay St.
Why was the tiling removed at Bergen St. at the first place, and why did they bother to retile the upper level in the early 90's when it didn't need it while the lower level was left to rot?
Anybody know where I can get 64 of the old bullseye tokens in use between 86 and 95? These would be used as a decorative element on furniture being designed for the lower concourse at Grand Central. Thanks to anyone who can help.
I think that the the transit museum sells them. Im not sure.
Try contacting the NYCT. I know they had a recent contract bid to scrap those so I don't know if there are any left. The Transit Museum doesn't have any of the Bulls-eye
Both below may have some of various old tokens:
1. NYCT Treasury Dept Room 212 - 370 Jay Street - Brooklyn
2. Queens Surface Corp. - Click on my name to contact me directly.
Mr t__:^)
Queens Plaza used to be a major transfer point for G riders into Manhattan. Since they opened up Court Square as a transfer station to the E and F lines, Queens Plaza I believe has decreased in ridership. However, I believ that is is stupid to cut G service to Court Square because there are many G riders that could and have to use the R line for upper Midtown. It is so stupid to take two trains just to get to Queens Plaza to transfer to the R line. I do agree they should swing the G line into the 53rd tunnel and down 6th ave as a local and then back through Hoyt Street as a loop.
I don think that running the G train in such a loop would be possible due to the lack of tracks connecting the G to the A or C trains at Hoyt. Also, I am not sure if the turn into the 53rd street tunnel is possible as well.
It might be feasible to tie the G into the 53rd St. tunnel west of 23rd-Ely. You could have the connector branch off between the 21st-Van Alst and Court Square stations. The Manhattan-bound trackway would have to duck beneath both lines (or possibly pass over the 53rd St. line depending on how deep it is at that point) while the Brooklyn-bound trackway would not have to dodge anything.
At the other end - Hoyt-Schermerhorn - you would simply have to install crossover switches between the G and A/C tracks. That might be easier said than done, though. There is no room west (north) of the station due to diverging routes, and the G tracks start to descend just east (south) of the station in order to trade places with the Manhattan-bound Fulton St. tracks. Currently, there are scissor switches between the Fulton St. local and express tracks just east (south) of the station, but they could be relocated - there is plenty of room further down the tunnels. I rode the Fulton St. line two weeks ago, but was unable to get a good look at the eastern (south) end of the station. There is a curtain wall separating the G and A/C tracks.
Let's not forget something: the G line was not intended to enter Manhattan when it was built, nor were any provisions made to permit it to do so later. Over the past 60 years, travel patterns have changed to the point where having such a "circle line" sounds like an excellent idea. Even so, the 2nd Ave. line will probably be finished before the G enters Manhattan.
The G, unfortunatly, doesn't do what was originally intended, which is function as a feeder for 3 different lines to Manhattan. Since only 2 of the original plan exist, and the northern connection it makes has become overcrowded with both people and trains. Ridership at Queens Plaza did not go down as a result of the G changing terminals, it just eased the flow of trains through the station.G riders who boarded at Queens Plaza to go southbound now take the E or F a single stop to transfer. Northbound G riders simply take the R, or whatever train is running local there at the time. The only inconvienience is to passengers who need to get to the R, or passengers who need a local station north of Queens Plaza (and south of Court Sq on the G), but south of 71/Continental. Having observed the habits of subway rders for some time, I have discovered that most people will change to an express no matter what, even if it turns out that they catch the same local they got off of.
-Hank
You just described me to a tee. Call me Mr. Express Addict.
With re: Most people will change to an express, no matter what....
Although I sometimes think that the trains are deliberately timed to discourage people from changing between expresses and locals (I mostly ride the 1,2,3,9, changing to the local to go north of 96th St), there is one more reason to do it for anyone with about 20 years of memories:
I returned to the city in 1982, about 6 years after the infamous "deferred maintenance". If I was not already something of an express addict (from the 1950's and early 1960's, when trains ran faster and more often, or so it seems), I would have become one then. Every time a train stopped at a station, one had to wonder whether or not they would ever get the doors closed again! It seemed as if every other day I was on a train which was taken out of service for this reason, having to wait forever while they moved the train out of the station, and then joining hundreds of others crowding into the next train.
It was at this time of my life, BTW, that I learned the great art of boarding the train between cars. I was already past 30 at the time!
I enjoy the (probably false) supposition that the reason a fence was built around most of the 96th St northbound local platform is that someone saw me board an uptown local between the cars from there, while the express platform was really jammed with people who had probably waited a half-hour or more for a local.
Some years ago no less a man than Evil Knievel did commercials telling the kids that boarding a subway train between cars was the stupidest thing they could possibly do! He must really have needed the money!
YVY
YVY, Do you get off the 1/9 at 116th ? I did for 11 years. Mr t__:^)
Mr. T,
Actually, I usually get off at 110th, although I may get off at 116th on Monday or Thursday, when I have to move my car. I must be one of those rare birds that actually enjoyed the recent service changes due to the Lenox Av. Rehabilitation. It was good to have the "3" at my stop, which I don't think has happened regularly since about 1958.
YVY
Evil Knievel was right. Let's just leave it at that. I'm probably the biggest express addict around, but have never attempted to board a train between cars, and have no intention of ever doing so.
HELP! Ive been out of the loop for quite a while...What ever happened to the one day MetroCard??? Last I heard it was supposed to be out by Oct or so......
It's interesting that you mention the day passes ... they seem to have faded out of public attention with nary a mention. Same as you, the last I heard was October.
The TA never liked the day pass. So they proposed making it available at suburban commuter rail terminals, and fancy hotels, but not to regular transit riders in the city. Well, that didn't go down well. But perhaps the day pass is already available. I think they still want it for tourists.
If your from Upstate ask you State Senator. I'm sure YOU could get one.
Septa's new M-4 cars are more trouble than there worth. Every time I ride
them there is a problem. Stuck doors bad brakes you name it and went wrong.
My son loves them but he's a D student so that shows u how much he knows.
The Budd cars may be old, noisy, hot in the summer cold in the winter
but at least there is some reliability left in them. Thanks for the
handicapped stations information BobW.
Of course, you know the bad news is coming. And SEPTA still has no plans to save any of the Budds in any shape or form. Too bad. I've lamented here before about SEPTA's lack of historic sense - it allows the old Broad St fleet to go away, its 3 "museum" cars from the line are sitting in Fern Rock yard, with one inoperable from what I've heard, of 1000 GM "old look" "Green Hornet" buses it saves none, the list goes on. It does point to the one PCC it's saved in its building's basement, in its "museum", as its tribute to the history of transit in Phila. And it's busy trying to buy a couple of old ACF-Brill buses, examples of which never ran in the city, as a single addition to the museum (the two will apparently be "melded" together to result in one bus - what is this, Frankenstein?).
On the good news side, the M-4 reliability is apparently getting better...
Yeah, Septa is pretty bad, but consider this:
The LIRRR has not a SINGLE MP-54 preserved, the only old double decker preserved is the prototype, there is only one DD-1 left in existance (preserved), no MP-41s. I know of only 2 of the LIRR type MP-54 cars in existance. Even the RR museum of LI has none, instead, they have a few incomplete BM cars, and an RS-3 (ok, that's historical), and some sort of plain old PRR steam job of which I'm sure there are a few others laying around (including the one in Mittchel field). In short, there is virtually nothing but photographs prevered of the LIRR's eraly, and also somewhat important, electric history.
BTW - I believe the first train to leave Penn station was an LIRR train...
On the brighter side, let's not forget Budd's contribution to New York's subway - the R-32s. 33-34 years young and still rolling along. They still looked better with blue doors, IMHO. Let's hope they're still around for a long time to come.
Of course, if you want to get technical, you could mention the R-11s, but that's another story.
Yes, bless our humble R32s. I've never seen trains as rugged as these, my love for Slant R40s nonwithstanding. As for the doors, they can always repaint them. They DID look better with blue doors. And while they're at it, if they get another trip to the overhaul shop (which should be due around 2002 or so), LOSE THOSE SILLY DIGITAL SIGNS! They're illegible in most cases - can't tell a "C" from a "G"
from a "Q" from an "O". I saw a "Q" one time it was the weird one, #3348, I could have sworn it was marked "O". I never saw an "O" train before. I'm sure the crew meant "Q". Or maybe there was something wrong with the dots on the sign. Anyway I REALLY don't like those signs.
O Well,
Wayne
You are right about Budd. I used to work for the Budd Co. Trailer
Division and we were very quality orientated. I am sure the railway was the same way . Now everything today is high quality or you will
lose your shirt!
Chuck Greene
Those blue doors gave the R-32s a distinctive quality. Remember how they painted the doors blue on the R-40s and R-42s in the early 80s, as well as the R-32s? In terms of ruggedness, you'd have to rank them up there with the likes of the R-1/9s, BMT standards, and Triplexes.
Know what else I miss on the R-32s? Those green illuminated side destination signs. More than anything else, I remember that first N train I rode and how those shiny, brand-spanking new R-32s had "57th St." all lit up in green on the sides. Seeing "Coney Island" illuminated in green on Brooklyn-bound trains was a treat, too. Come to think about it, all cars from the R-17s thru the R-38s had their side destination signs illuminated in green when new (I don't know about the R-16s), but the R-32s stand out in my mind. I'm tempted to put green light bulbs in my IND sign box, but since the signs on the R-1/9s were lit up in white, it wouldn't be authentic.
You're absolutely right about those dopey pixel electronic signs. They're not worth squat and are next to impossible to decipher. They could have kept the bulkhead roll signs on the R-32s and R-38s the way they did on the Redbirds, but no-o-ooo! Man, I'm going to miss the Redbirds! You should have seen me two weeks ago whenever a train of Redbirds would pull into the station where I was waiting. You would have thought I was talking to my month-old nephew: "Hello, Redbirds, hello Redbirds..." Maybe a few of them will still be around next year.
The digital bulkhead signs on the R38 I can live with - they are larger, and have that funny rubber frame around them - the R32 signs I can not stand. As far as I'm concerned that modification was a total waste of time and money. They'd have been better off doing what they did to the Redbirds - invest in new mylar rolls with up-to-date color bullets in them, but as you said, No-o-o. FOOEY!
Otherwise, I'm glad to see the R32s still going, odd couples and all.
(maybe they'll all get 'reunited' some day).
I remember some of the Slant R40s (esp. on the "F") when new they had green flourescent bulbs backlighting the magenta F sign. Perhaps these flourescent bulbs were from the same lot that illuminated the side signs on R32, R27/30 etc. I certainly saw green sign lights on the R27/30s back in the late 1960s.
The Triplex had Green bulbs for Bridge, White bulbs for Tunnel, according to the fantrip brochure. These signs are still in place in some of her windows. What a wonderful old train!
I'm taking another field trip tomorrow, up the #6 and #4 lines.
Then I meet Simon Billis at 3:15 at Queensboro Plaza, we'll be taking a Redbird tour.
Wayne
Did you ever ride the slants on the E or F in Queens when they were new? If that ride I took on the R-1/9s back in the spring of 1968 along that line was any indication, I'll bet those R-40s just screamed down the express tracks.
I will ride those Triplex units one of these days if it kills me. Why, oh why didn't we wait for rush hour on the BMT back in July of 1965? (I don't even remember seeing any BMT standards back then, either. Just R-27s, R-30s, and R-32s)
The BMT standards (what were left of them; the earliest ones were probably gone by then) were exiled to Ye Olde Canarsie Line and Ye Older Myrtle Avenue Express.
I posted earlier regarding my experiences from 1972-1974 with the then-relatively-new Slant R40 fleet. My first experience in one came on August 3, 1968 on the "F" from 179th Street. I was so thrilled by it that I stayed on all the way to Coney Island. Dad particularly liked the elongated front windows. The train wasn't A/C either; the A/C slants didn't show up until way late in 1968, maybe early in 1969. I saw my first A/C Slant R40 on April 7, 1969 - on the "E".
Wayne
I also remember the blue doors.
Remember the thin blue stripe of the original R-38's and the thick blue stripe of the R-42's thru R-46's?
Also, do you remember the longer windows on the front and side doors of the R-42?
Now, without the stripes, the trains look boring. And without the smaller windows, the R-42's just don't look right.
All this talk about subway "Budd" cars is nice BUT ...
I ALSO love the single unit diesel version !
Mr t__:^)
I was riding on a Brooklyn-bound G train this morning. As we left the 36 Street station we were going very slow. I looked out the window and saw that we were running on that new track. The trackbed of the original south-bound local track bed was already torn up. So what will be the track numbers of each of the six tracks?
I was on the Newark Subway this past weekend and noticed that at Penn Station, the trolley cars were arriving and departing on the inner platforms, and cars were being stored on the outer platforms.
Why the shift?
Just curious.
I've seen that a few times over the years, and I always wondered. I hope someone clues us in.
BTW, does anybody know if there's been a date set for the Last Roundup of the PCCs?
Yesterday, the entire regional rail system of Septa was shutdown because of a single power outage somewhere. The ENTIRE system, from Trenton to Wilmington, from Doylestown to Norristown was shut down for about 40 minutes. At around 6 pm the lines started rolling with the exception of the R1.
How is that possible?
It's called a non redundant power supply system, which is probbly because Septa is still 25hz ac, not 60 hz ac likke Metro North and parts of NJT.
As is a good portion of the NEC, which means, in therory, one could STILL run a GG1 - but nobody wants to because they're not cool like steam locos are, and they're filled with those evil PCBs, just like half of the power transformers in the world are....
I'm *certain* the NY / Penn area of the NEC is, from the Hell Gate bridge down at least...
Peggy,
I have reason to believe you did not receive the El tour I was going to send. If you see this message, please let me know.
If you did not receive it, it was because of a mistake on my part.
Also, do you still need photographs of stations/cars?
Jack -Did not receive. I can still use photos-especially of stations. Please e-mail me and I'll send you a list of what stations I'd like-so far I have PATCO and Broad Street (and the Spur) research completed.)
Due to other committments, Market Frankford is on hold but still planned-I'll be on Vacation In January and look for completion by then-including forwarding to Dave.
I don't know if you've heard, but a former transit cop and comedian has a show on about being a transit cop on the subway. I airs on Monday on UPN 9 at 9:30, up against Monday Night Football, so if I were you I'd tune it in soon because it may not last. It takes place in Stillwell Terminal, where the guy used to be posted, and at his small house in the suburbs (typical).
The sexual innuendo jokes were a bit lame, but it was good to the see a subway train on TV that was not covered with Grafitti. Of couse there was a mugging, a couple of homeless people, and a few references to bad smells, but you can't have everything. And the opening credits show the actual subway.
And the set looks like no subway station I've ever seen....
-Hank
It's not just the show that may not last. There has been speculation that the whole UPN network might not be long for this world.
NO!!!!
No UPN means no star trek and besides the subways thats my other passion!!!!
I would love to see an episode where they either go back in time and hop on a NYC subway (a real one) or even show what is left of the subway in the 24th century.
[NO!!!!
No UPN means no star trek and besides the subways thats my other passion!!!!
I would love to see an episode where they either go back in time and hop on a NYC subway (a real one) or even show
what is left of the subway in the 24th century.]
Star Trek Voyager is UPN's highest-rated show by far. Unfortunately, it's just about the only show on the network that's more than a blip in the ratings - probably not enough to keep the network afloat without help.
As far as the subway in the 24th Century is concerned, the episode will show people *still* waiting for completion of the Second Avenue line :-)
haha
and they will still be waiting for the other tracks on the manhattan bridge to open. And the 4,5,6 will still be packed!
Heh
And, the R-32 will most likely *still* be running.
But on a worse note - tmy guess is the LIRR would still be using a few M-1s or M-3s at that point, and Oyster Bay *still* won't be an electric line!
I don't think any of these will be true.
The Federation is such a perfect place in Star Trek land. Poor service, NIMBY's, and transit politics just wouldn't occur. Besides,
who needs subways when you have transporter technology? =) They never play up New York in Trek either.. it's always San Francisco where all the government is.. the rest of the planet is just one big tourist attraction... sorta like Washington, but without the crime.
As far as real predictions of service in the 24th century... I'm sure subways will be outmoded, much like the horse and buggy. I can imagine a far more 3-dimensional world than we're used to as well. Open Spaces will be a thing of the past.. ooopps.. they already are..
well in the star trek world i know that new york must still exist and if they can preserve the crappy golden gate bridge why not the subway hahaha
i would just love to see what their impression of NYC is
You don't need Star Trek for subway time travel, just try Diresta. All I saw in the show was working class whites of the traditional New York breed and a native born black thrown in for diversity. Those folks are getting a little thin on the ground, especially on the BMT southern division. The homeless person was an old white "bag lady", 1970s vintage. Don't see too many too many of those either. It could have been called "That 70s Show", except they eliminated the graffiti.
Could have done a lot more ethnic humor, with the growing diversity of Brooklyn. Yakov Smirnoff (whatever happened to him) would have been a good co-star representing the Russians.
SIR's 3 locomotives are all back in action. Yesterday morning 821, 057, and 407 were running up the Clifton shop tracks to get to work. 407 has regained her hood, but is missing some doors; 821 is still the same, and 057 has been repainted from her ex-NYCT 'safety yellow' to a dark blue with red and white stripes, with the MTA pacman and 'Staten Island Railway' along the bottom of the cab. That GE looked WAAAAAYYYY out of place sandwiched between the 2 Alcos, especially considering that it's 1/2 the physical size.
-Hank
No pix Hank??
It's been awhile since I saw all three out and about on the property. Were the cabooses following and are they still yellow with blue trim??
Sorry, I don't bring my camera to work with me, too much to lug home, and not enough opportunity (and I'm also tired).
At the time, it was just the 3 engines, but today I discovered that we also have another GE, 058. So that's 4 locos for our dinky little rail line. There are shortline freight operators with less motive power!
-Hank
Wow, I would never even think SIRT would have 4 engines. Didn't mean it in a nasty way Hank, I'll get you a camera to mount on your hat for next time.
I didn't take it in a nasty way....and that hat-cam will certainly come in useful! Make sure it has a Mets logo on it :)
-Hank
Over the weekend I spotted a news report about people blocking the doorways on the subway and Stan Fischer (I think that's his name) who wrote The Subway was talking about the situation. All in all it was a total fluff piece.
I also saw The Lost World this weekend, I didn't remember the scene towards the beginning with the subway when I originally saw this movie. Anyone care to venture what station and model car was used?
BTW, I hope that I get several transit related questions on the Logic Reasoning portion of my GRE this weekend.. I nailed those on all my practice tests!
Which of the New York State And City Canidates Plan to do the most for the MTA and it's riders? Which Plan to do the least?
Just Wondering since it's not as hot a topic as yankee stadium, etc.
I voted for Golisano. He's figured out where the upstate Republicans and downstate Democrats are pouring money down the drain to reward their special interests. He didn't mention transit per se. But if we weren't spending so much more than the rest of the country on Medicaid statewide and lots and lots of high paid state and local government workers in the rest of the state, there would be more money left for areas in which we spend less than average -- ie. transportation.
Fact of the day -- public schools account for 3.3 percent of the employment in NYC, but 6.7 percent in the rest of the state. The U.S. average is about five. The city has 37 percent of the school kids and contributes 50 percent of the state taxes, but will be down to 25 percent of state school spending in a few years.
The City School Distirct of the City of New York:
9 Billion Dollar Agency funded from City/State/Federal (so non mayoral agency) Larger budget than 13 States.
1 Million Plus Students largest single school district in the country.
3rd largest public property manager in US with 1,200 plus sites (does not count tempoary or portable buildings) only the Department of Defense (#1) and the United States Postal Service operate more square footage than NYCBOE.
Operates buildings built in the 1800's over 50 built before 1900. 250 or so still Coal Fire boilers for heat under a special excemption from the 1970 (or so) clean air act.
Largest payroll in the of any other city agency.
School spending in NYC -- $38 for every $1,000 earned by NYC residents. National average -- $48 for every $1,000 earned by U.S. residents. School spending in the rest of New York State -- $64 for every $1,000 earned by residents of the rest of the state. Fortunately, they don't have to pay for all of it. Some of it is redistributed from the underserving children of the city.
BTW as late as 1990 local government was the same share of the economy in Upstate NY as in the city. Not anymore -- its way, way higher. It will be interesting to see what Pataki does. Can he really drain the city anymore? Or will he demand that the rest of the state get its act together and stop wasting so much, as the city has?
[School spending in NYC -- $38 for every $1,000 earned by NYC residents. National average -- $48 for every $1,000 earned by U.S. residents. School spending in the rest of New York State -- $64 for every $1,000 earned by residents of the rest of the state. Fortunately, they don't have to pay for all of it. Some of it is redistributed from the underserving children of the city.]
But wouldn't the relative numbers of school children have a major effect on these figures? Compared to the rest of the country, and presumably to the rest of the state, NYC has a low proportion of school-age children in the population.
(Fewer school children)? Only if you don't count those creatures in the city's public schools as children. Those immigrants have lots of offspring. It's just the native born who move to the suburbs when their offspring are school aged, thereby changing them into children.
What it means is the city's schools are rotting away. And there were 35 in the kindergarten class in the local elementary school the year my oldest would have enrolled (we chose Catholic school, which we can afford, but others cannot). Other yuppie types get their children into special "gifted" programs which are more like normal schools.
No, the city really is being drained buy the rest of the state -- but I would agree that all that extra money you get out there doesn't mean that you personally benefit. It just feeds the machine. That's why I voted for Golisano.
But this figures per student is general education?? Don't the dollars for special education through the numbers way off??
I find it hard to believe that NY spends less than average on transportation. Do you have any statistics to back that up?
Take all the money the City of New York spends on transportation -- both street and highway and transit subsidies, operating and capital, (from the Annual Report of the Comptroller). Divide by the total personal income of NYC residents, from the Bureau of Economic Analysis. You get $5.72 in spending for every $1,000 of income in FY 1997.
Get the comparative figure for all local governments in the nation, from the U.S. Census Bureau. In FY 1995, the latest available, the national average was $10.64. New York's City's spending gap is about a billion per year. It also spends less than average on education, parks and a wide variety of other services, despite taxes which are much higher than average.
All the money goes to 1) the health care and social services industries, mostly through the nations most extravagent Medicaid program (Democratic patronage) and 2) an unusually large number of unusually well paid civil servants in the rest of the state (Repulican patronage). The budget deal each year protects these priorities, and screws everything else.
All this gets written up each year in the city's Annual Report on Social Indicators (I write the economics chapter). I also intend to once gain extoll transportation, and blast health care and wasteful spending in the suburbs, in the mayor's Stategic Policy Statement (I get the economics chapter again), though I doubt this information will survive the 15 layers of review or even that the City Planning Dept. will manage to publish it.
If you want my point of view straight, with graphs and charts and without translation into bureacratese let me know. I've written it up (Wordperfect format) and can try to E-mail it to you.
Al D'Amato was the best candidate beacuase as chairman of the Senate Banking Committee, he could get large amounts of financing towards mass transit. Now that he is out and the charimanship will probably end up with Phil Gramm, New York could be a big looser.
Al D'Amato's MO was he'd agree that the federal government could suck $1.00 out of NY and put just 80 cents back in, as long as he could steer the 80 cents to his friends and supporters. If you weren't one of the people on TV for whom D'Amato secured money, you're better off without him.
Under the recent federal transportation act, New York State, whose 7 percent of the US population pay 8 percent of federal taxes, got 5 percent of federal transporation spending. Could it get worse? I suppose, with clueless Chuck in charge. But D'Amato didn't help.
Why should a bus operator mind if passengers board through the back door (let's assume the front of the bus is crowded) if everyone is eventually going to enter the subway system? The fare gets paid on the latter half of the trip. What would a cop do if he/she caught you boarding through the rear? Again, you're paying later.
Rich you need to understand two points:
1. The TA needs to record the traffic so they can plan for enough buses so there not always crammed.
2. Of the 5,000 buses in the city, 1,000 aren't part of the TA. So we "privates" want the fare paid on our bus so the TA has to write us a check for it. Otherwise the TA keeps the money & Rudy has to tax you so he can write us a check. It's realy more complex then this, but you get the point. We "privates" also want to record the traffic. Right now we're trying to justify the purchse of more buses.
Disclaimer: I'm speaking for myself, not the TA or DOT or the Mayors office.
Mr t__:^)
BUT - You are only paying later IF you are going to enter the subway system...
[Why should a bus operator mind if passengers board through the back door (let's assume the front of the bus is crowded) if everyone is eventually going to enter the subway system? The fare gets paid on the latter half of the trip.]
There certainly is no bus route where *everyone* enters the subway system (or boards from the subway). Many people, maybe, but not everyone.
OK, board a bus, and prove that you're getting on the subway.
-Hank
Does anyone know what those light on the LIRR MUs mean?
They are located just above the conductors' position. I think red, yellow, blue?
How about those above the engineer's cab? Red, Yellow and Green.
I saw them change from green to yellow when the Speed Bell sounded. Can they be replicas of the signals? If so, what are they doing on the outside of the cab?
By the way, why do LIRR motormen have to operate with the door closed?
RE: The conductors position:
Red usually means doors are open.
Blue usually means control or motor trouble on the car.
No idea on the rest...
RE: The conductors position:
Red usually means doors are open.
Blue usually means control or motor trouble on the car.
And as far as operating with the door closed, it is in the interest of safety. Especially in the tunnels and at night, light from inside can foul the engineers view. Railfans asking questions are also a safety hazard :)
No idea on the rest...
The lights over the cabs on the M-3s
Red = Doors open
Green = 0 Brake Cylindr pressure
Amber = Air Brake applied
Outside on M-1 and M-3 are the same as the above.
I have no idea what the blue light is...
My ride on the M-4's was better today. At least there weren't any
of the usual problems tonight. Were projected to have a very very cold winter.
Philly transit fans, Will the M-4's survive a real philly winter? Last
winter was mild and i mean mild. Will septa have enough budd cars for this
winter for the rush hours should the M-4's run into problems this upcoming
winter? I hope septa dosen't pull all the budds out of service to soon it could
be a long winter for all us Blue line riders.
Something i noticed but can not really confirm.
Are the R32+R38 bigger than the R40+R42?
I mean inside is there more space or is it just an optical illusion because the R32+R38s lighting is darker
And why are they not switched around from lines to lines
i wouldnt mind seeing the R32+R38 on the LJMZ
Their demensions (outside) are the same. Inside I guess it may vary slightly. The R-40 would probably be slightly smaller due to their slanted number one end. The R-32 and R-38 certainly are able to operate on the BMT Eastern division, but I've never seen them out there.
I wish they would send some over here to the Eastern division.
Cuz im tired of seeing the same slants and R42s every day. I miss those day when i was little when u didnt know what kind of equipment was going to turn the curve on Wilson ave
In addition to R-42's (and R-40) I can vaguely remember thr R-1/9's and I think everyone has ridden or seen the R-16 and R-27/30 on the J,L and M lines.
The R-7/9s were transferred to the Eastern Division in 1969 when the last of the BMT standards were being retired. I rode them on the Canarsie line, and occasionally on the QJ.
The R-32s ran on the QJ briefly during the early 70s, and one Subtalker - I can't remember who - verified that they also ran on the Canarsie for a brief period of time. They also saw service on the M. Put it this way: the R-32s have run on just about every IND and BMT route you can think of during their fruitful careers. (Did they ever run on the HH?) The same can be said of the R-16s, R-27s, and R-30s.
I rode the R-16s only twice, if you can believe it: once on a #15 on September 23, 1967, and once on an M in late October of 1986.
Yes I saw one on the "HH" in August of 1977. One end was marked "CC",
the other "HH".
I got to know the R16s when they ran on the "EE" and "GG" between 1970 and 1975 or so. In Jan.of 1969 I saw a mixed consist of R16 and R27/30 on the "QJ" at Cypress Hills; mixed red and charcoal grey cars.
The R16 got repainted the next year 1970.
Wayne
I don't work for NYC Transit but I think the reason why you don't see the multitudes of equipment on lines anymore is because it is more economical to service similar equipment in one location. That's one of the reasons the B & C changed terminals and the B got R68As. Both the B & D trains are serviced out of Concourse Yard or Coney Island.
--Mark
But it didnt stop th MTA in the past to mix types of equipment
I mean its a whole train of different equipment not two type of equipment in one train.
The reason we try to maintain unified fleets for several reasons. Some of those reasons are:
Maintenance Efficiency: Maintenance personel become familiar with a particular car class.
Material Logistics: It's easier to maintain parts for one or 2 car classes at a location.
Customer Concerns: People become accustomed to *their* trains.
Service Logistics: Certain car classes cannot be mixed in revenue service.
Some shops (like Concourse) have just 1 car class while Coney Island has 4. A plan was proposed, last year where a 3-way swap between Coney Island, Concourse and East NY Yards which would have left Coney Island with 2 car classes instead of 4, East NY would stay at 3 and Concourse would stay at 1 car class. The plan was not implimented due to political concerns.....
To answer your first question, the dimensions ot the R-32 through R-42 car classes are essentially the same in and out. There are some seating capacity differences.
[The reason we try to maintain unified fleets for several reasons. Some of those reasons are:
Customer Concerns: People become accustomed to *their* trains.]
Some time ago R-40 cars were temporarily assigned to the Q train. As many of us might recall, this stirred up quite an outcry from the Q riders, who didn't like the R-40s. As I recall, they bellyached so much the assignments were soon changed.
[Some time ago R-40 cars were temporarily assigned to the Q train. As many of us might recall, this stirred up quite an outcry from the Q riders, who didn't like the R-40s. As I recall, they bellyached so much the assignments were soon changed.]
If you're talking about the September 1997 assignment change, which put R-40s on the Q line, as of this afternoon (11/4) they were still there. I was happily perched at the front window of 4353 on a southbound Q!
Yes, the Q appears to still be 100% Slant R40. However, during my trip to Brooklyn on Oct.18 I saw at least five trains of them on the N line. #4193 and #4320 were among the ones posing for pictures at Coney Island. #4282 and #4283 were even sporting diamond W signs in their side windows. On the way back, a large flock of Slant R40 Q's were seen resting on Coney Island Yard's layup tracks.
There is also a group of 48 Slant R40 which ply the L, numbered 4398-4449 (w/o 4420-21,4427-28)
LONG LIVE THE SLANT R40!
Wayne
The Q is all Slant 40's, Slant 40's also appear on the N line. I ride the Q each day, and the N pass my window at Queens Plaza. N also has R68's and a R32 sometimes in there.
Wayne, you've certainly earned the title of "Mr. Slant R-40", just as William Padron is known as Mr. R-10.
It seems that the N line has had a handful of slants for the last several years; I've ridden them on the N once or twice. Too bad the N can't run express in Manhattan right now. The R-32s have never really left the N entirely since they've been on the scene, IMHO. I personally associate the R-32s with the N the way the R-10s are synonimous with the A. I guess it's simply due to first impressions - the very first subway train I ever rode was an N of R-32s.
Mixed consists were in vogue during the late 60s and early 70s on the IND and BMT. There are photos of R-27s, R-32s, and R-42s all coupled in the same train. Maybe the TA wanted to see just how these cars would run together. The only mixed sets I ever saw were R-32s and R-42s on the D; that used to drive me nuts. In every instance, the first two or four cars would be R-32s; the rest would be R-42s. I just prefer solid trains. Maybe that's why the R-10s were so appealing. They ran almost exclusively in solid trains, even though they could, and occasionally did run in mixed sets, which I never saw.
P. S. The A train I rode out to Lefferts Blvd. on had 8 R-32s and two R-38s tacked onto one end. Go figure. OK, at least those cars are near-lookalikes.
why werent the R10s rebuilt. They seemed to have been trustworthy cars. Hey they did it to the redbirds
The R-10 GOH rehabiliation program of December 1984-February 1986 was really simply an interim measure to get the entire car fleet in a non-graffiti condition and state of good repair, plus the long anticipated arrival of their replacements in the form of the R-68/68A fleet. The R-10's were actually nearing the end of their useful service lives, but the so-called rebuild program of 110 Westinghouse units were originally planned for an additional five years. However, even these dark green-painted cars were being begun to be removed from service between March and October, 1989. Each car to be redone in this group cost $65,000 each in-house at the NYCTA's 207th Street Shops. If these same R-10 cars selected were to be rebuilt by an outside contractor in the mid-1980's, it was reported by the project engineer on the scene then it would cost at least much more in terms of dollars and time (the R-10 engineering in-house designs were completed in a three week period).
However, back in 1975, the Coney Island Shops was in the process of giving a real overhaul on car #3192. This pilot project on this unit include the installation of a R-42 type front end, full-width motorman's cab, air-conditioning, and R-44 class interiors. Unfortuanely, this program never did not get off on the right foot, and subsequently #3192 was only 25% completed. There was an unconfirmed rumor that rebuilding this one R-10 car as originally planned would have cost more ($357,000) than buying one new R-46 car (at $275,000 each). So the project was shelved, and the car languished inside Coney Island Shops until #3192 was finally scrapped in 1980. In my personal R-10 memorabilla collection, I have one of its four car number plates (but now restored to its original orange-on-grey scheme) in my proud possession.
-William
[why no rebuild of the R-10s]
Wasn't another issue the cost of installing air conditioning?
But how did they manage to install air on the redbirds? If im not mistakened the ceiling of the r10s is an open space with small fans attached
I really could not give you an honest answer at this point if the cost of installing air-conditioning on R-10 car #3192 was the main culprit in dropping the concept of rebuilding the fleet. As one would question, I can tell you that on my three inspection visits on that car while I given a group guided tour at Coney Island Yard in the 1970's, all of the fans and center stanchions were removed, but only one provision for an air conditioning system was installed near the motorman's cab like the R-44/46's. However, I personally believe that no real substantial electrical work was ever really performed on the car itself.
Also, the concept of rebuilding a fleet of cars was revive when they attempted to really rebuild two R-16's (#6392 and #6429) at 207th Street Shops circa 1979-1980. More substantial work was performed on the latter car, but again the proposed program was halted (I am not going to even second guess or speculate on this matter why). In the end, the next major capital car fleet project would somehow lead to the acquistion of the R-62 to R-68 passenger units.
-William
Yes we saw #6429 at the 207th St. open house in 1980! She was all dressed up as an R44 inside. I WISH that they'd have continued that project, at least kept #6429 as a museum piece or something. I will have to content myself with the charms of #6387, unless I want to drive to Kingston to visit #6398. Standing inside #6387 is about as pleasant experience as I've ever had in the subway. I wish they'd change her signs from "A" to, say, "EE" or "RR" however NO OFFENCE MEANT TO THOSE (including myself) WHO LIKE THE "A", I've never seen an R16 on the "A" (not to say there has never been one there).
Wayne
The Ogee roof of the R10 does contain open space. The twin fan clusters are attached to short arms that sprout from the top of the center poles, not to the ceilings themselves. The only thing on the ceilings are flourescent fixtures (running down the center) and vents on the sloped sides of the roof's crown. This same feature can be seen on the IRT's R12 and R14 cars. The Worlds Fair Low-V had an Ogee roof too, with standard paddle fans attached. According to my photos, the BMT Multisectionals also had the Ogee roof style. THEY had the small attached fans, smaller than those found on the R10/12/14.
Wayne
(With thanks to William A. Padron for the lesson).
> P. S. The A train I rode out to Lefferts Blvd. on had
> 8 R-32s and two R-38s tacked onto one end
Tuesday night I spotted a train of mostly R38's with R32 3880-1 on the C at the Times Sq/Port Authority station. But, the R32's were in the middle of the train not on the end. Having personally missed out on the days of mixed consists this always strikes me as weird but I've seen the R32/R38 mixed train a few times now...
-Dave
Those are the R32GE! No air conditioning, even though it looks like there is. The compresser cradles are broke and they won't fix 'em; costs too much. #3880-3881; also #3594-3595, #3892-3893; and #3936-3937 are the R32GE. Also #3934-3935 but they're mouldering away at 207th Street, their bones picked clean for use as parts cars.
These R32 look exactly like R38 inside, curly bars, ceiling style,
PA speaker placement, doors, backlit advertising signs, the whole nine yards. I did a double-double take first time I saw one, then I took some pictures.
Wayne
I also have seen mixed consists of R-32GE/R-38 several times on the A/C lines. Once just before the B/C northern terminal switch - I think I saw a pair of R-32 (from MK) in a train of R-38's on the C line. I also missed the mixed trains on the IND/BMT with the exception of the R-42/R-40M on the D line and once I saw a 4-car train on the B line with a pair of R-42's and a pair of R-40 slants. I never cared for trains with mixed consists. Those IRT trains (prior to R-62/62A) drove me nuts because I was nearly impossible to find a solid train or even a train in which all of the cars were the same color.
Back in January of 1969 (during my first Subway Solo, from Atlantic to Church on the 7th Avenue) I ran into a mixed bag of R15, R17, R21 and Redbird. Some were red (Redbird), some red with black/yellow stripe (R15), some black (R17 and R21)... There looked to be about one of each kind of car except Redbird, there was a pair.
Somewhere in the back of my head is a memory of R12/R14 cars running in mixed consists with other IRT cars - I can't see how this is possible, since the doors on the R12/R14 were operated from outside the cars like the R10, no?
Wayne
Well, these best I could possibly say that the IND R-10 car side doors were actually *pneumatic* (or air) operated during their service life.
When the IRT R-12/14's were on the IRT Mainline routes, it was said their car side doors were *electrically* operated, and each unit had a blue interior guard light installed opposite the motorman's cab. It was through this method that it was possible to run these cars in mixed consists on the both the Lexington Avenue and Broadway-7th Avenue trunk routes, and you probably most likely never seen them operate in the middle portion on mixed trains for the conductor to ever used in opening the doors.
Of course, the fifty assigned R-12/14's to the Third Avenue (Bronx) elevated line always ran in solid trains, as well as the four assigned R-12's to the Bowling Green-South Ferry Shuttle (with some real door operation modifications done on the latter line here).
-William
I have two things to say:
First, I have seen bothe the R32 mixed with the R38 recently. But more comman is an R40/R42 combo. I've seen these A LOT on the J and M trains.
Second, since I went around the South Ferry Loop to the Lex Line on a 2 train, it occured to me that the Bowling Green shuttle had to change ends, since there is no track connection back to that shuttle platform.
-Hank
Now that you mention it, you're absolutely right! I just checked out some consist lists from my original numbers book and the R12/R14 cars are either the second, third, eighth or ninth in the consist. Here's some from Aug. 4, 1969 on the #3: (nine-car consist)
#3: (8/04/1969)
7474 - 5893 - 7381 - 7401 - 7641 - 8672 - 8673 - 8812 - 8813
(r22) (r14) (r22) (r22) (r22) (r29) (r29) (r33) (r33)
#3: (8/04/1969)
7526 - 5894 - 8814 - 8815 - 6540 - 7090 - 5906 - 5917 - 7370
(r22) (r14) (r33) (r33) (r17) (r21) (r14) (r14) (r22)
#2 shows a similar alignment: (ten-car consist)
#2: (9/20/1969)
9038 - 9039 - 5949 - 6699 - 7404 - 7657 - 5992 - 5968 - 7684 - 7162
(r33) (r33) (r14) (r17) (r22) (r22) (r15) (r15) (r22) (r21)
Thanks for filling in a blank for me!
Wayne
The way I remember it the R12/14/15 always had electric doors. You wouldn't hear the swish of air as with the R1/9 or R10. Air doors were prone to more problems particularly in the cold weather unlike electric doors. The R12/14 would require the conductor to stand between the cars for door operation and they had no PA systems. The R15 was the first model with conductor controls inside the cab. I'm not sure if they had PA systems tho. This is why these cars were not used at the conductor position on the main line. Also, it was dangerous to get out there onto the steps for door operation. Many conductor injuries occurred because of vandals throwing objects at the conductors, or hitting them in the head while the conductor was looking the other way. Remember many years ago when the R1/9's were on the LL, the conductors would wear hard hats? I had quite a few near misses when I was a conductor operating R10's.
Dear Sir/Madam:
Dodes anyone have a list of all the schedules for the 1964 World's Fair map? This way I can attach it to the map. Please send
a response with 2 weeks, because the message I sent in early October
got lost, and was on this same topic. I need to know which of these
trains run all times, part time, etc.
IRT: 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,42nd Street shuttle, South Ferry SHuttle, Lenox
Avenue Shuttle
IND: A,AA,BB,CC,D,E,F,GG,HH
BMT: J,JJ,KK,LL,M,MJ,N,Q,QB,QT,RR,SS (Culver & Franklin Shuttle),T,TT
James S. Li
OK, one more time, from the top, with feeling.
Most of this information is taken from my Hagstrom's mid-60s subway map. There is always a possibility of an inaccuracy or two.
IRT
1. Broadway Local: 242nd St. and South Ferry at all times. Additional trains to 137th St. 7:00 AM to 7:00 PM daily.
2. 7th Ave. Express: Dyre Ave. and New Lots Ave. at all times.
3. 7th Ave. Express: 145th St. and Flatbush Ave. Mon-Fri 5:30 AM-9:00 PM; Sat. 6:00 AM-midnight; Sun. 7:00 AM-midnight.
4. Lexington Ave. Express: Woodlawn and Atlantic Ave. or Utica Ave. 6:00 AM-9:00 PM daily. To Flatbush Ave. 9:00 PM-6:00 AM daily making all local stops.
5. Lexington Ave. Express: E. 241st St. and Atlantic Ave. or Utica Ave. or New Lots Ave. Mon-Fri 6:00 AM-6:00 PM. To South Ferry Mon-Fri 6:00 PM-8:00 PM; Sat. 6:00 AM-midnight; Sun. 7:00 AM-midnight.
6. Lexington Ave. Local: Pelham Bay Park or E. 177th St-Parkchester and Brooklyn Bridge Mon-Fri 5:00 AM-8:00 PM; Sat., Sun. 7:00 AM-midnight. To South Ferry Mon-Fri 8:00 PM-5:00 AM; Sat., Sun. midnight-7:00 AM.
6. Pelham Express: to Brooklyn Bridge-Manhattan AM rush hours, from Manhattan PM rush hours. Express in Bronx, local in Manhattan.
7. Flushing Local: All times.
7. Flushing Express: To Manhattan AM rush hours; to Main St. Flushing PM rush hours.
7. World's Fair Super Express: To Willets Point. middays; to Times Square evenings. Nonstop between Queensboro Plaza and Willets Point.
(8). 3rd Ave. Local: All times. This marking never appeared on trains.
Lenox Ave. Shuttle: 135th St. and 145th St. Mon-Fri 9:00 PM-1:00 AM. 145th St. station closed 1:00 AM-5:30 AM Mon-Fri and all day weekends.
42nd St. Shuttle: All times.
Bowling Green Shuttle: Mon-Fri 6:00 AM-7:00 PM.
BMT
The BMT division experienced a major transition during the 1960s. New rolling stock began arriving in 1960, signalling the beginning of the end of the first generation equipment. The IND letter code was expanded to encompass BMT routes as well in anticipation of the opening of the Chrystie St. connection which would result in both IND and BMT divisions being fully merged. In 1964, there existed a potpourri of route designations on the BMT, ranging from no markings at all on BMT standards and number markings based on the BMT number code adopted in 1925 to letter markings on all new cars delivered in 1960 and later. Since all new cars were initially assigned to the Southern Division (4th Ave., Sea Beach, West End, Brighton), the new letter markings first appeared on those routes. Stations on Southern Division routes featured large signs which cross referenced the new letters with the corresponding old BMT route title. Even so, there was much confusion. The slogan, "When in doubt, ask a Transit employee" became futile, because even TA personnel were confused! Letter markings were not implemented on the Eastern Division until 1967, and even then it took two more years for letter markings to appear on all trains, by which time the last of the BMT standards had been retired.
Corresponding number markings are given for those routes which were also served by older rolling stock equipped with bulkhead route and destination signs. All number markings were officially dropped with the opening of the Chrystie St. connection in November of 1967. Letter markings not used in 1964 appear in parentheses.
(J). Jamaica Express: (Trains equipped to do so carried #15 signs.) 168th St. and Broad St. Skip-stop to Eastern Parkway Manhattan-bound during AM rush hours; may have run express between Eastern Parkway and Marcy Ave. to Manhattan during AM rush hours and from Manhattan during PM rush hours.
(JJ). Jamaica Local: (Trains equipped to do so carried #15 signs.) 168th St. and Broad St. Skip-stop to Eastern Parkway Manhattan-bound during AM rush hours. All stops at all other times.
(KK). Broadway-Brooklyn Local: (Trains equipped to do so carried #14 signs.) Canal St. and Crescent St. or Rockaway Parkway PM rush hours only.
(LL). 14th St. Local: (Trains equipped to do so carried #16 signs.) 8th Ave. and Rockaway Parkway at all times.
M. Nassau St. Express: Rush hour Bankers Special. Chambers St. and Coney Island via Brighton line and Montague St. tunnel to Manhattan AM, from Manhattan PM, deadheading over the Manhattan Bridge. Express between Kings Highway and Prospect Park.
(M). Myrtle Ave. Express: (Trains equipped to do so carried #10 signs.) Metropolitan Ave. and Chambers St. rush hours only; to Manhattan AM, from Manhattan PM.
(MJ) Myrtle Ave. Local. All times. Trains never displayed any number or letter markings on this route.
N. Sea Beach Express: (Also marked as #4.) 57th St. and Coney Island via Manhattan Bridge at all times. Skipped DeKalb Ave. during rush hours. Local in Brooklyn during late nights and Sundays.
Q. Brighton Express: (Also marked as #1.) 57th St. and Brighton Beach via Manhattan Bridge Mon-Fri 6:00 AM to 7:00 PM. May have run local in Brooklyn during middays.
QB. Brighton Local via Bridge: (Also marked as #1.) Astoria and Coney Island 7:00 PM-6:00 AM Mon-Fri and all day Sat.-Sun.
QT. Brighton Local via Tunnel: (Also marked as #1.) Astoria and Coney Island Mon-Fri 6:00 AM-7:00 PM. Note: all older trains running on the Brighton line carried #1 signs whether they ran local or express.
RR. 4th Ave. Local: (Also marked as #2.) 95th St.-4th Ave. and 71st-Continental Ave. via Montague St. tunnel Mon-Fri 6:00 AM-7:00 PM. To 57th St. other times.
T. West End Express: (Also marked as #3.) Astoria and Coney Island Mon-Fri 5:00 AM-10:00 AM and 3:00 PM-8:00 PM. 57th St. and Coney Island Saturday 5:00 AM-10:00 PM.
TT. West End Local: (Also may have been marked as #3.) Chambers St. and 9th Ave. or Bay Parkway Mon-Fri 7:00 AM-6:00 PM; middays to Coney Island via Montague St. tunnel. Shuttle between 36th St. and Coney Island 10:00 PM-5:00 AM Mon-Sat and all day Sunday.
Franklin Ave. Shuttle: All times
Culver Shuttle: All times.
IND
A. Washington Heights-8th Ave. Express: 207 St. and Lefferts Blvd. at all times. Local in Brooklyn.
AA. Washington Heights-8th Ave. Local: 168th St. and Hudson Terminal (WTC today) all times except rush hours.
BB. Washington Heights-6th Ave. Local: 168th St. and 34th St.-6th Ave. rush hours only.
CC. Concourse-8th Ave. Local: Bedford Park Blvd. and Hudson Terminal rush hours only.
D. Concourse-6th Ave. Express: 205th St. and Coney Island at all times. Express in Bronx to Manhattan AM rush hours; from Manhattan PM rush hours. Additional service to Church Ave. middays.
E. Queens-Manhattan-8th Ave. Express: 179th St. and Hudson Terminal. To Euclid Ave., Far Rockaway, or Rockaway Park during rush hours running express in Manhattan and Brooklyn; express in Queens only during other times.
F. Queens-Manhattan-6th Ave. Express: 179th St. and Broadway-Lafayette St. Mon-Fri 5:30 AM-9:00 PM. To 34th St.-6th Ave. other times. Express in Queens between Queens Plaza and 71st-Continental Ave. at all times; express to 179th St. during rush hours (possibly middays stopping at 169th St).
GG. Brooklyn-Queens Local: 71st-Continental Ave. and Smith-9th St. at all times.
HH. Fulton St. Local: Euclid Ave. and Far Rockaway or Rockaway Park all times except rush hours.
There you have it!
##Trying to elaborate on Steve B's account, from memory
##(as best as I can after 34 years)
IRT
1. Broadway Local: 242nd St. and South Ferry at all times. Additional trains to 137th St. 7:00 AM to 7:00
PM daily.
2. 7th Ave. Express: Dyre Ave. and New Lots Ave. at all times.
3. 7th Ave. Express: 145th St. and Flatbush Ave. Mon-Fri 5:30 AM-9:00 PM; Sat. 6:00 AM-midnight; Sun.
7:00 AM-midnight.
4. Lexington Ave. Express: Woodlawn and Atlantic Ave. or Utica Ave. 6:00 AM-9:00 PM daily. To Flatbush
Ave. 9:00 PM-6:00 AM daily making all local stops.
## Atlantic Ave. midday weekdays. Flatbush Ave. during rush hours. (express in Brooklyn). To Utica Ave. on weekends (express in Brooklyn). Nights to Flatbush Ave. (local in Brooklyn).
5. Lexington Ave. Express: E. 241st St. and Atlantic Ave. or Utica Ave. or New Lots Ave. Mon-Fri 6:00
AM-6:00 PM. To South Ferry Mon-Fri 6:00 PM-8:00 PM; Sat. 6:00 AM-midnight; Sun. 7:00
AM-midnight.
## Utica Ave. rush hours, Atlantic Ave. midday weekdays.
## Also Thru-express service rush hours (S. bound AM, N. bound PM), express from Gun Hill Rd. to 3rd Ave/149 St, stopping only at E 180.
6. Lexington Ave. Local: Pelham Bay Park or E. 177th St-Parkchester and Brooklyn Bridge Mon-Fri 5:00
AM-8:00 PM; Sat., Sun. 7:00 AM-midnight. To South Ferry Mon-Fri 8:00 PM-5:00 AM; Sat., Sun.
midnight-7:00 AM.
6. Pelham Express: to Brooklyn Bridge-Manhattan AM rush hours, from Manhattan PM rush hours. Express
in Bronx, local in Manhattan.
7. Flushing Local: All times.
7. Flushing Express: To Manhattan AM rush hours; to Main St. Flushing PM rush hours.
7. World's Fair Super Express: To Willets Point. middays; to Times Square evenings. Nonstop between
Queensboro Plaza and Willets Point.
## Worlds fair trains stopped only at Times Sq, Grand Central and Willets Point. They didn't stop at Queensboro Plaza.
(8). 3rd Ave. Local: All times. This marking never appeared on trains.
Lenox Ave. Shuttle: 135th St. and 145th St. Mon-Fri 9:00 PM-1:00 AM. 145th St. station closed 1:00
AM-5:30 AM Mon-Fri and all day weekends.
42nd St. Shuttle: All times.
Bowling Green Shuttle: Mon-Fri 6:00 AM-7:00 PM.
BMT
(J). Jamaica Express: (Trains equipped to do so carried #15 signs.) 168th St. and Broad St. Skip-stop to
Eastern Parkway Manhattan-bound during AM rush hours; may have run express between Eastern Parkway
and Marcy Ave. to Manhattan during AM rush hours and from Manhattan during PM rush hours.
## Yes, did use express track between Eastern Parkway and Marcy.
## did not stop at Marcy.
(JJ). Jamaica Local: (Trains equipped to do so carried #15 signs.) 168th St. and Broad St. Skip-stop to
Eastern Parkway Manhattan-bound during AM rush hours. All stops at all other times.
## AM rush hours to Canal St., did not run PM rush hours.
(KK). Broadway-Brooklyn Local: (Trains equipped to do so carried #14 signs.) Canal St. and Crescent St.
or Rockaway Parkway PM rush hours only.
(LL). 14th St. Local: (Trains equipped to do so carried #16 signs.) 8th Ave. and Rockaway Parkway at all
times.
## Rush hours half the trains turned at Myrtle Ave.
M. Nassau St. Express: Rush hour Bankers Special. Chambers St. and Coney Island via Brighton line and
Montague St. tunnel to Manhattan AM, from Manhattan PM, deadheading over the Manhattan Bridge.
Express between Kings Highway and Prospect Park.
## Also Bankers Special from 95th St/4th Ave.
(M). Myrtle Ave. Express: (Trains equipped to do so carried #10 signs.) Metropolitan Ave. and Chambers
St. rush hours only; to Manhattan AM, from Manhattan PM.
## Express from Broadway/Mytrle to Marcy Ave. (did stop at Marcy). Trains ran both directions, but only ran express to Manhattan AM, from Manhattan PM.
(MJ) Myrtle Ave. Local. All times. Trains never displayed any number or letter markings on this route.
N. Sea Beach Express: (Also marked as #4.) 57th St. and Coney Island via Manhattan Bridge at all times.
Skipped DeKalb Ave. during rush hours. Local in Brooklyn during late nights and Sundays.
Q. Brighton Express: (Also marked as #1.) 57th St. and Brighton Beach via Manhattan Bridge Mon-Fri 6:00
AM to 7:00 PM. May have run local in Brooklyn during middays.
## Yes, local in Brooklyn middays.
QB. Brighton Local via Bridge: (Also marked as #1.) Astoria and Coney Island 7:00 PM-6:00 AM Mon-Fri
and all day Sat.-Sun.
QT. Brighton Local via Tunnel: (Also marked as #1.) Astoria and Coney Island Mon-Fri 6:00 AM-7:00 PM.
Note: all older trains running on the Brighton line carried #1 signs whether they ran local or express.
RR. 4th Ave. Local: (Also marked as #2.) 95th St.-4th Ave. and 71st-Continental Ave. via Montague St.
tunnel Mon-Fri 6:00 AM-7:00 PM. To 57th St. other times.
T. West End Express: (Also marked as #3.) Astoria and Coney Island Mon-Fri 5:00 AM-10:00 AM and
3:00 PM-8:00 PM. 57th St. and Coney Island Saturday 5:00 AM-10:00 PM.
## Via Manhattan Bridge, skipped DeKalb rush hours.
TT. West End Local: (Also may have been marked as #3.) Chambers St. and 9th Ave. or Bay Parkway
Mon-Fri 7:00 AM-6:00 PM; middays to Coney Island via Montague St. tunnel. Shuttle between 36th St. and
Coney Island 10:00 PM-5:00 AM Mon-Sat and all day Sunday.
Franklin Ave. Shuttle: All times
Culver Shuttle: All times.
IND
A. Washington Heights-8th Ave. Express: 207 St. and Lefferts Blvd. at all times. Local in Brooklyn.
AA. Washington Heights-8th Ave. Local: 168th St. and Hudson Terminal (WTC today) all times except rush
hours.
BB. Washington Heights-6th Ave. Local: 168th St. and 34th St.-6th Ave. rush hours only.
CC. Concourse-8th Ave. Local: Bedford Park Blvd. and Hudson Terminal rush hours only.
D. Concourse-6th Ave. Express: 205th St. and Coney Island at all times. Express in Bronx to Manhattan AM
rush hours; from Manhattan PM rush hours. Additional service to Church Ave. middays.
## Coney Island via Culver line (now served by F train).
E. Queens-Manhattan-8th Ave. Express: 179th St. and Hudson Terminal. To Euclid Ave., Far Rockaway, or
Rockaway Park during rush hours running express in Manhattan and Brooklyn; express in Queens only during
other times.
## Express in Queens west of Continental Ave/Forest Hills only.
F. Queens-Manhattan-6th Ave. Express: 179th St. and Broadway-Lafayette St. Mon-Fri 5:30 AM-9:00 PM.
To 34th St.-6th Ave. other times. Express in Queens between Queens Plaza and 71st-Continental Ave. at all
times; express to 179th St. during rush hours (possibly middays stopping at 169th St).
GG. Brooklyn-Queens Local: 71st-Continental Ave. and Smith-9th St. at all times.
HH. Fulton St. Local: Euclid Ave. and Far Rockaway or Rockaway Park all times except rush hours.
A couple of questions:
--If 145th Street was closed all weekend, where did the 3 originate it's service on weekends? 135th Street?
--I'm presuming the 5 ran a late night shuttle from 241st to 180th Street.
I also find it surprising that some lines stopped running earlier during the week (e.g., 9 PM) than on the weekend.
Michael
Mike,
Your questions point up two errors in Ed's post:
1. The 145th St station was closed 1-5:30 am weekdays and about 9pm-5am weekends. It was opened weekends during the day.
2. The #2 train ran late nights from 241st St to New Lots. In all the years the Dyre Av. line has been in service (since 1941) there has never been, to my knowledge, any late night service other than Dyre Av. to 180th St. It has been known variously as the "5" (present), "SS" (1970's-80's), and the "9" (before that, although I don't believe the number appeared on the trains). I have seen it on bulkhead rollers of IRT cars from the late 1940's and early 1950's.
Bob Sklar
Hold the phone!
I have a 1964 WF Map right here: says the following regarding IRT:
7th Ave Exp: runs ALL times between E241st St-White Plains Rd and
New Lots (this would be the 2)
Lex Ave Exp: between E180 or Dyre AND Utica or Atlantic 6am-6pm M-F.
Between E180 or Dyre AND South Ferry 6PM-8PM M-F; also 6AM-Midnight
on Sat., 7AM-Midnight on Sun. (this would be the 5)
Lex.Ave Thru Exp: 241st-White Plains to Utica or New Lots, M-F.
rush hours only (this would be the Diamond 5)
Dyre Avenue Shuttle: 8PM-6AM Mon-Fri; 8PM-8AM Sat; 9PM-6AM Sun.
(this would be the 5 "S")
ALSO: re. the Jerome service:
Lex Ave Exp. 6AM-9PM M-F; 6AM-12 MID Sat/Sun between Woodlawn and
Utica or Atlantic
Lex Ave. Local 9PM-6AM M-F; Sat/Sun 12 MID-6AM between Woodlawn and Flatbush - runs LOCAL in Manhattan. (these would be the 4)
And the Lenox:
5:30AM-9PM M-F; Sat 6AM-12 MID; Sun 7AM-12 MID between 145th (now 148th) and Flatbush Avenue (this would be the 3).
Lenox Shuttle: 9PM-1AM M-F only; no service to 145th 1AM-530AM M-Sat
and 1AM-7AM Sunday.
Hope this doesn't create more confusion. If you'd like I'll scan the service guide and send it down as a JPG file.
Wayne
It was sometime around 1964/65 that the 2 and 5 swapped north
terminals. Before that the 2 ran to Dyre and the 5 to 241/White Plains
Rd. The original 1964 WF map shows the Dyre Ave. Line as
"7th Ave", later maps (after the swap) show it as "Lex" or "Lexington".
Not all trains ran through to Dyre Ave. Half the trains would turn at
E180 St (this was true of both the 2 and the 5).
Up until the mid 1960s, most of the station platforms along the Dyre
Ave. line were short, and only half the train would open dooors. This
included the Dyre Ave. terminal station, an ugly, temporary looking
wooden platform on the east side (across the track from the current
platform).
The #2 & # 5 swapped The Bronx Terminals On Sunday, June 13, 1965, at 12:01 AM.
I was informed privately that the 2 and 5 switched terminals in the Bronx on June 13, 1965.
Thanks to Ed Sachs (Mr. BMT) for providing additional BMT info. I posted an appendix on a couple of additions/corrections which mentioned the JJ and T.
Sorry if I wasn't clear about the Lenox shuttle; 145th St. was NOT, in fact, closed all weekend, only when there was no shuttle service during the late hours. I'm still learning about IRT service patterns back then, I have the BMT and IND down pat (almost).
One possible correction: the JJ or #15 may have terminated at Canal St. during rush hours.
BTW, the T operated via the Manhattan Bridge the way the B does today.
I've got an interesting observation to add to the discussion about bus speeds. It's been noted that crosstown buses can be very slow. Well, it looks like some avenue buses won't be competing in the Daytona 500 anytime soon.
I decided to walk up Sixth Avenue on my lunch break today. As I turned the corner from 14th Street onto Sixth, I noticed an uptown M5 bus just pulling away from the stop on the corner. I decided to see if I could keep up with the bus for a few blocks, though that wouldn't last long because it was a Limited bus and therefore wouldn't be stopping again until 23rd Street. I walked at a reasonably brisk pace but wasn't running or anything.
To make a long story short, "keeping up" wasn't the right term. After trailing it for no more than a block or two, I caught up with and *passed* the bus at 26th Street. And there was no construction or other unusual traffic delay on Sixth Avenue. By 27th Street, I was a block ahead of the bus. It would have been interesting to see how much longer I could keep ahead of the bus, but then I saw a smoky fire toward the Seventh Avenue end of 27th and, of course, had to go investigate (the fire turned out to be just some trash in a Dumpster, and by the way didn't interfere with Sixth Avenue traffic in any way). All of which goes to show that for 13 blocks, a limited-stop bus traveled at less than walking pace.
You bet they're slow. For the past couple of days, I've been traveling around Manhattan checking the census bureau's count of the number of housing units against city estimates in buildings with big discrepancies (no wonder the city's census counts are so low). I've hopped a bus every now and then, since the buildings were all over the place. But I made better time when I walked, especially when the wait is factored in.
Of course, in London they restricted auto access to the City (IRA concerns) and bus speeds dramatically increased. If they tolled all the crossings, then raise the tolls until traffic were reasonable, maybe crosstown subways would not be needed. Remember, CEOs would love it because they could afford the tolls, and there would be less traffic. Its those civil servants with perks who oppose congestion pricing. It sure won't happen in this administration.
back in the early seventy i went to school in ny at eighth ave an w.31st. i had to take the bus (from nj) into port authority. i found the it was fast to walk than to take the subway or the bus. i usually made better time than the buses on eighth.
You're right - it would be faster to walk. Port Authority is 9 blocks north of where your school was; that's less than half a mile. Now, if you had to walk through pouring rain, that's another story.
We have an anachronism in London which also does its bit to speed buses. Bus conductors are still used on many city centre routes, which speed boarding considerably as passengers can get straight on the bus without needing to pay the driver. Unfortunately, accountants hate them and so I predict that they will all be gone within the next few years, partly because the buses designed for them are at least 30 yers old and are beginning to look really decrepit.
London has more dedicated bus lanes. And it is not in any way a grid. You don't have crosstown vs. avenues. I think a grid pattern tends to maximize the number of stops you must make at intersections. Bus stops in London can be pretty far apart. They also seem to run much more frequently than in NY.
On the other hand - at least NY has 24 hour subway service. Nighbusses in london are a nightmare. Slow, expensive (more than daytime fares), infrequent, crowded . . .
Quite a few Night Bus routes run every fifteen minutes during the night on the main sections. Many run every 30 minutes to the inner suburbs. As for being crowded, well you can't win. If they were deserted then people would be complaining about how unsafe they felt riding alone on an empty bus. Safety in numbers.
I don't think that Londoners are particularly bothered by the lack of a 24-hour tube service (which would not be much use South of the river in any case). The shutdown at midnight enables cleaning and repairs to take place, and must reduce the potential for vandalism. The shutdown also saves a fortune, no one could expect night train services in London to cover staffing costs, and any extra drain on resources would reduce the quality of the system during the day. Of course, if we had a 24 hour service then Londoners would be up in arms if there was an attempt to end it, but one doesn't miss what one never had, and all in all I think that the Underground is better off working 5AM to Midnight.
Is there any other subway in the world that operates 24 hours like NYC subway?
I don't know for sure, but I thought CTA (Chicage) offered 24hr service.
CTA still has 24-hour service on the Red Line (which serves the most heavily populated neighborhoods) and on the O'Hare and Forest Park branches of the Blue Line.
There used to be 24-hour service on the Green Line, the Purple Line, and the Cermak branch of the Blue, but it ended in April. I must note that with the exception of the suburban Yellow Line, even the lines that close at night only close for about two to four hours between about 1 or 2 AM and about 4:30-5AM.
With the present 24-hour rail system, there is coverage northwest, north, south, and west. If the Orange Line were run on a 24-hour basis, then there would be early-morning rail service southwest as well, but since Midway closes at midnight, there is little demand for night-owl service on the Orange.
If the night buses were more extensive, this would actually be a decent early-morning system. Unfortunately, the CTA has a VERY sparse "owl service" bus system, with lines two miles (OR MORE) apart in places! For example, between the #81 Lawrence (4800 N) and the #77 Belmont (3200 N), a distance of two miles, there are NO other east-west lines in the post-midnight hours, though there are three lines in the area in the day (#78 Montrose at 4400 N, # 80 Irving Park at 4000 N and #152 Addison at 3600 N). And there are no north-south lines west of Pulaski (4000 W) in the Owl system, even though the city limits is about 8000W!!!
The Berlin U-Bahn has a 24-hour service on two lines on Friday and Saturday nights. Other candidates are possibly Moscow and Tokyo, but these are harder for me to get details of.
Yes, NYCT buses in Manhattan travel very slowly. If they went any slower they'd be standing still. At one point I was on the list to become a MABSTOA bus operator, but the thought of crawling along Manhattan streets was not good. I would have happily taken a Bronx route. I don't know for sure, but I always thought that NYCT buses (especially Manhaatan) have too much time to complete their runs. Why else would they drive so slowly. Any other place you will have buses keeping pace, and sometimes overtaking some of the cars, especially at NJ Transit and WMATA.
Why are buses so slow? They stop three times on every block, once to pick up passengers, once for the light, and a third time to pick up passengers who arrived while the light was red. The lights are on 1:1 signal timing where two main streets intersect (ie. 42nd and Broadway), so the waits are long. This kills the crosstowns. The bus lanes are blocked by parking, loading, and turning, and the crosstown routes have not bus lanes.
This gets back to why subways replaced horsecars. Manhattan traffic is too heavy for mass transit to get anywhere on the street. At least in a cab or car you go from point to point, without having to stop to pick up or drop off others.
[Why are buses so slow? They stop three times on every block, once to pick up passengers, once for the light, and a third time to pick up passengers who arrived while the light was red. The lights are on 1:1 signal timing where two main streets intersect (ie. 42nd and Broadway), so the waits are long. This kills the crosstowns. The bus lanes are blocked by parking, loading, and turning, and the crosstown routes have not bus lanes.]
But the less-than-walking-speed M5 I outpaced yesterday didn't have these disadvantages. As an express, it made only one pick-up stop (at 23rd) between the time I started pacing it at 14th and when I pulled ahead at 26th. It also encountered only one major intersection, once again at 23rd, and there weren't any blocked lanes or other obvious delays on Sixth Avenue. So the bus *should* have been able to keep up a decent pace. The fact that it couldn't speaks volumes about the state of Manhattan traffic.
I saw on the bibliography page the Robert Bang and Roger Arcara books about the Westchester.
Does anyone have info on how to get copies?
I've photocopied some of Arcara's book, it's at the New Rochelle library if anyone is interested.
The later edition of Westchester's Forgotten Railway includes almost all the material published (at that time) to date.
The exception is the ERA Headlights issue which was publishes about the same time as the original issue of the Book.
Any other material, other than newspaper clippings of the time when the Westchester was operating or being abandoned, remains unpublished by whoever may have that material.
Mr. Arcara had a silent film of a trip up the original (White Plains) line. However, I do not know of the disposition of Mr Arcara's estate.
An image of the original book in on my home page geustbook at
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Prairie/1346/geobook.html
I have a question concerning subway signaling. Can a tower or the train control center clear signals down any line to read either green or red etc. like was portrayed in the movie PELHAM 123? Or was that just pure Hollywood?
It's not quite that simple. The vast majority of signals are referred to as *Automatics*. They are controlled strictly by the block occupancy. Protecting interlocking plants are signals called *Home Balls* or *Home Signals*. These are the signals controlled by the towers. In Pelham 123, there were no trains in front of the subject train so, all automatics would already be green. Therefore, all that would be left to do would be to change the Home Signals green. Again, with a clear track, not a problem...
the other evening I was returning ont he B line near 38th street yard and saw a three aspect signal with displays (in order from top to bottom) as:
red--white (Lunar White)--red.
I know a bottom white is a stop, but what about a middle white. I also know from the media that a white signal under an automatic red means no key by.
(ps- my rules book is abridged- meaning stations related rules only.)
Don't go by aspects and indications of other railways. NYCT
is unique. R/LW/R is a fairly rare signal. It is the interlocking
("home ball") version of a plain old single-shot, or "loony white"
timer. See
http://www.nycsubway.org/signals/timesig.html
How exactly do they change car assingments, and move the cars from one terminal to another. it must take lots of logistics to move em so how exactly do they do it?
I have occasion to take the F into Brooklyn fairly often...I have noticed that York St. looks like no other IND station I have ever seen, i.e. the large circular tiled columns, the general feel of the station...it has the feel of one of the old IRT stations.
Does anyone know why York St. was built like this, looking in such contrast to other IND stations?
The reason for the round ceiling is that it is actually built into part of the Rutgers tunnel. Other stations that lead into the river tunnels that have curved or rounded ceilings are: Broadway/Nassau IND, High Street IND, Lexington-53rd Street IND, Clark Street IRT, Court Street. BMT. The closest cousin to York Street is the nearby High Street A/C station.
York Street is unique among IND stations in that its blue (formerly violet) tile band is only one tile high and the black tile captions sit on it rather than below it. The fat round columns are found nowhere else in the system - there is even a pair with a tile wall curtain connecting them - and blue border tile at the top. My best guess is that these columns are needed to support something above the ceiling between the two tubes at that point in the station- if you look, they're only found near the north end of the station, not at the south end...perhaps it has something to do with the placement of the mezzanine (I've never been up there) or something beneath the street.
Wayne
The fat round columns are supporting the Manhattan Bridge.
David
Is it the bridge or the ventilation tower that sits above the station that the colums are supporting??
Surprised I didn't see anything about this yet. Picked up a flyer at GCT today advertising the shutdown of the Willy B for 5 straight weekends, starting Nov. 7-8, 6am Sat-10pm Sun.
J service will operate Jamacia Center-B'way/Myrtle only, A special shuttle train from B'way/Myrtle to Hewes St, a shuttle bus from Hewes St (J) to Bedford Ave (L) with a stop at Marcy Ave, Frequent L service all weekend, and frequent B39 service from Marcy St to Delancy/Essex (F) In many words, it indicates continuous tranfers will be free paper. (J-shuttle bus-B39-F) There will be regular M shuttle trains as far as Central Ave, and a transfer to the L at Wycoff is reccomended for all M passengers, and no service on the Nassau St line.
-Hank
According to the General Order, every other J train will turn at Eastern Parkway,and Myrtle ave.M trains from Metropolitan ave will operate on a 20 minute headway during the hours of this G.O to Myrtle ave.Those station announcements don't always tell all the facts
Another part of this is switch replacement at Marcy Ave.: The Manhattan bound switch from the exp. to lcl; & the Jamaica bound switch from the lcl. to exp. For all 5 weeks J/Z Express service between Marcy & Bway Myrtle will be local between these 2 points. The single track shuttle from Hewes to Bway Myrtle will alternate sides in accordance to which switch is being replaced that particular weekend. The G/O calls for long trains to be operated on the J&M, but curiously calls for a 4 car exclusive use shuttle from Hewes to Bway Myrtle.
OK, that answered my question as to why they couldn't just send the J all the way to Marcy.
They probably should at least extend the B-39 to Hewes then.
> The G/O calls for long trains to be operated on the J&M, but
> curiously calls for a 4 car exclusive use shuttle from Hewes to Bway
> Myrtle.
This would be consistent with NYC Transit's recommendation / expectation that passengers would change to the A or L at Broadway Junction.
--Mark
This is the first time I can think of where a short train was being operated with a major g.o in effect.Mind boggling
As one person mentioned here in Subtalk, this will be the preliminary work for the five weekends; then a complete shutdown sometime in Spring 1999. I read the flyer myself but I don't understand why are the trains terminating at Hewes St instead of Marcy Ave. In my observation, more people board at Marcy Ave then the Hewes St station.
Wayne--
As part of the preliminary bridge work, they are also rebuilding the switch at Marcy Avenue (where three tracks become two). Next year, this will become a primary turnaround when trains don't run over the bridge.
BTW: The switch work is why trains are running local between Myrtle and Marcy during the week until December 4.
Michael
From the official flyer:
J runs between Jamaica Center and Broadway/Mytle.
J Shuttle (Jamaica bound platform for now) from Hewes to Broadway Myrtle.
Shuttle bus from Hewes (J) to Bedford (L) with a stop at Marcy (J).
Options:
from jamaica they advise to use the E or change at Eastern Parkway for the A or L.
From Koscuisko to Sutphin they advise to change at Eastern Parkway for A or L.
From Broadway/Myrtle they advise using the M to Wyckoff for the L (or the J shuttle to Hewes for shuttle bus to Bedford on the L)
For Flushing Ave ro Lorimer- J sdhuttle to Hewes for shuttle bus to Bedford on the L.
For Hewes or Marcy shuttle bus to Bedford on the L or B39 bus to Delancey/essex F.
For Chambers or Canal- take the 4/5/6 from Chambers (Brooklyn Bridge) or the 6 at Canal to 14 and change for the L.
note that Fulton Street and Broad Street are already closed weekends on the J. For Bowery they did not list service but I suggest grand street for the B/D to W4th for the A. Change at 14 for the L or at Easterrn Parkway for the J to Jamaica Center.
On another front I have a flyer on the renovations at 81 and Cenmtral park West (B/C). The cost 10.5 Million. Includes: structural repair, new wall tiles, floor tiles, new lights, better fare control areas, better access to the musuem and "an MTA Arts for Transit and American Museum of Natural History artwork display." (Quote from the brochure.)
While I do not know what this art will be, I hope it will be a dinosaur- the object most assoicated with the museum of which I am also a member. (I have no news from the musuem about the project and do not know if the museum is paying for any part of the project and if they are what the amount or scope would be.)
$$$10.5 Million for 81st Street-CPW???!!! I hope they put a few thousand dollars aside for cobalt blue tile so they can create a top band there. They're probably going to bury the "81"s like they did at 110th Street (although a few sample "110"s DID survive the all-white onslaught).
And what, pray tell, are they going to do about the Chambers St. BMT?
God only knows what THAT's going to cost to fix seeing the above tab.
Wayne
What adds to cost here is the fact of two levels and extra stairways. Another factor is the extended exit from the S exit to CPW-this is also tiled, and the stairs from the Fare Control to the museum. The walls to the lowrr level are fully tiled and are set back from the main platform. I imagine also, that the art will add some cost!
All new projects receiving fed funds must include artwork of some form and I've always been surprised that the museum did not "Advertise" its presence in ways other than in the station name . It has also surprised me that Transit hasn't really promoted the access to the museum from the station other than directional signs in the tile.
As far as chambers BMT, the cvapital program contracts call for remedial work at the Nassau Street stations including Bowery and Chambers-so I guess that might mean "limited renovations"
Thanks for the information!
The Capital Projects list - is that out at the main NYCT site? I'd like to go see if anything's on the stove out there re. renovations.
Limited renovations will probably work at Bowery (patch the tile, paint, clean up the dust and grime, try and undo some of the ugliness - there are parts of both the side wall and curtain walls there that are in pretty good shape, others are falling down)
Chambers Street - that's another story. They need an army of Master Plumbers to plug and fix all the leaks there THEN come the structural repairs - have you seen the ceiling over the n/b tracks about mid-station? The ceiling's ruined - the bare ironwork is showing and it's rusted beyond belief. All of this has to be repaired. A lot of ceiling is peeling and has to be refinished. Then there's the issue of the station aesthetics - much of the beautiful marble, terra cotta/faience, and tilework on the closed platform needs to be fixed - never mind that the platform's closed, this is part of the overall look of the station and SHOULD be preserved. That 1960s wall has got to go - or at the least be replaced by something like the original work. (No Grecian motif here - just plain geometrics: rectangles and diamonds) THEN there are the lights. My idea is to remove the flourescents and replace them with Halophane fixtures (the kind you see in Home Depot or Edwards) with SODIUM vapor light or extremely bright halogen bulbs - NO mercury vapor. These will approximate the original fixtures, which they have removed. Then we remove all grime and put some kind of lights back onto the sides of the tiled columns.
In other words, do what they did at Broad & Fulton to Chambers.
This is my own opinion; not that of NYCT or any of its agencies.
BTW - did you get my mail?
Wayne
Does $10.5M for 81/CPW include ADA access?
-Hank
For the Capital Projects list go to:
www.mta.nyc.ny.us
from the left side click on Capital projects. Then click on New York City Transit.
As far as ADA (to answer Hank) I have not seen any info on whether elevators are planned, but here is my personal opinion:
the notice says "Better access to the American Museum of Natural History." and not "Elevators".
based on that I'd say maybe there will be a ramp from the upper level to the museum which is already ADA accessible. If that were true, the station would be ADA accesible by using 181 to change directions (and via using the museum itself to access the street.
Still opinion: Elevator(s) should be installed.
**opinions expressed are my own and not those of MTA or NYCT**
Heading up I-287 North between the Turnpike and US1, I spotted one of the MTA MCI busses heading south towards SI in Edison yesterday morning at about 8:00 AM. Didn't catch a number for the bus, but certainly not consistant with the express route from SI to Manhattan.
I think the bus may have been coming from Atlantic Diesel in Lodi,N.J where some T.A buses are serviced.
I don't think that it coming from a garage in Lodi makes much sense.
Lodi is a long long long long way from Edison.. and is not by any means on the way to or from any portion of New York from Lodi. Are the MCI's serviced elsewhere perhaps?
Anything is possible.I know also for a fact the new Novas(junk,I don't like them) do get some sort of service in Suffolk County L.I somewhere.Definitely east of exit 51 on the L.I.E because Ihave seen them numerous times commuting to and from work.Also saw articulated 1104 going westbound on monday.
On a couple of occasions I've seen TA buses W/out the blue stripe heading South on Woodhaven Blvd. (at the Hot Dog truck at St John's Cem.).
Mr t__:^)
Hmmm ... Are NYCT Express Buses authorized to use a different route into Manhattan (after making their last pickup stop) if there is traffic or a closure? I know the Verrazano has a 3 week construction project tieing up one of its Manhattan bound levels.
I know when I use ShortLine from NY to the PA Bus Terminal, the operator will sometimes use a different route to get to the Lincoln Tunnel bus lane if NJ17 or I80 is tied up.
--Mark
Another time, I was on NJT #163 bus going to Paramus one Friday evening, and instead of taking the Turnpike Extension (eastern spur), like they normally do, the driver took Route 3 to 17 north . . . I thought the whole purpose of using the Turnpike and I-80 was to avoid the horrendous traffic conditions on 17.
Should this driver have been written-up? He didn't stick to the bus route, and these trips are even designated in the timetable with a 'T', denoting 'Turnpike Express'.
Re: The drivers alt. route ...
I'm sure he got radio instructions to make this route change. He/she is paid by the hour so if the trips takes longer it's O-T time.
Mr t__:^)
Between The Bronx and Manhattan New York Bus Service and Liberty Lines buses routinely use alternate routes to avoid traffic especially during rush hours. In Queens I've seen TA expresses take an alternate route also. Another example is the M98 Limited Stop route - This is a rush hours only route between East Midtown and Inwood and along the way it operates non-stop between E. 125th Street and W. 179th St, Washington Hgts. via the Harlem River Drive. Many times when the Harlem River Drive is backed up I've seen M98 buses bailing out at the 135th Street exit.
At my company we have a number of Jeeps maned with supervisors that scatter in the field for the AM and PM rush hours. Amoung their jobs is to investigate traffic problems & make suggestions to the Dispatcher at our Depot. This activity is in place through out the entire NYC system (TA/private/bus/subway). The goal is to maintain "headways", i.e. if the schedule says a bus/subway every 3 minutes then that's what they are trying to ensure. They are also involved in breakdowns/accidents/illness & replacement equipment that may be required ... but then most of you knew all this.
Not too many years ago we didn't have radios in the buses, it was harder to react quickly to a problem on the road. Maint. uses these radios too, e.g. If I discover a problem with a farebox, from one of the reports that I run, I can ask the Dispatcher to call the driver & have him/her drop it off at my office when he/she comes back to the Depot.
Disclaimer: Speaking for myself vs. company policy
Mr t__:^)
Edison is too far off the beaten path to Manhattan, and I287 to I80/280 would take much longer than a route via Brooklyn. My assumption would be it was either on delivery, being serviced, or possibly even sent to an NJT garage as a demo of the wheelchair lift. Any NYCT bus detour must be pre-approved by some desk jockey somewhere. For the Richmond Rd rebuilding project, s74,76, and x15 buses were re-routed to North RR Ave between Delaware Ave and Seaver Ave. Prior to the re-route, several trees were cut back.
-Hank
Has anyone here seen the episode of "Homicide" entitled alternatively "The Subway" or "The Accident"?
If anyone has, then you know what the scenario is: person falls into (or is pushed into) the space between two subway carriages and the platform. The train is slowing down for the station but has not stopped, and the person, stuck in the space, is twisted around by the train. The pressure of being trapped is keeping their body together, even conscious, but if the train is moved, they will break into two pieces at approximately the waist and die nearly instantly.
A real-life incident which inspired the episode ***allegedly*** occurred on the New York City subway. Did such an incident occur?
It is my assertion that the space between the carriages and the platform is too big for this, and a falling person would not become stuck but would fall through clear to the tunnel floor. Am I right or wrong?
Ugh....NOT THIS STORY AGAIN!!!!!
I've heard this one from so many friends who heard it from "reliable sources", that I am almost CERTAIN that it is an urban ledgend.
Popular varitations include that the person has his family come to say their final goodbyes, etc.
But I for one, can not see how this could actually happen, and for that matter, what would be so special about keeping the person pinned/supported by the subway cars that they could not be freed alive and saved.
It just doesn't seem, in my mind, to add up. Maybe it happened ONCE, but I doubt it.
Nonetheless, it's one more reason to stand behind the yellow line :)
A variation on this urban legend involves a man caught in a factory machine. He's trapped so tightly that he can't be removed, and restarting the machine will be instantly fatal. So the man's family is brought to him for a tearful goodbye, and then his grim faced colleagues restart the machine ...
Like most urban legends, this one is of uncertain vintage, though it could have been inspired by the famous short story "The Monkey's Paw."
Back to transit, one place where a person quite easily could fall between a car and the platform is at the Atlantic Avenue LIRR station. On Track One in particular, the gap can be close to a foot wide.
One thing is for certain, the NYPD/ESU people would definitely
have to get the victim out and make some kind of attempt at saving the person's life. If soemthing like that was allowed to pass w/o the cops trying to extricate the person, one could almost see the end results:
1) A hefty lawsuit from the victim's family naming the MTA, NYPD and the City of New York as defendants(Which is pretty much a given in any subway accident, nowadays.).
2) A snootful of bad publicity stemming from the accident. i.e.
Screaming banner headlines in the "Daily News" and "New York Post", TV reporters self-rightousely exploiting the mishap for a new "consumer crusade", endless debate and discussion on local talk radio for at least a few days or so.
Either way, it is a quite a tale. But to paraphrase an anonymous NY City comissioner when asked about alligators in the sewers some years ago. "I hate to ruin a good story, but....."
Earthdog
Subway Rider & Urban Legend Fan
P.S:. I think the original version of the tale that Peter Rosa cited in his last post, could be found somewhere on the Web. A good place to start would be: http://www.urbanlegends.com .
Before you chalk it up to "Urban Legend", I would reccomend that you read my posting further down in this thread. They may not be able to speak or smoke a last cigarette but I've seen it happen.
Not a happy story, Steve. People think I'm paranoid about a lot of things regarding my children, with keeping them far from the edge on the list. So I printed out a copy of your post for later use. The problem is that Prospect Park has a center platform, and when the kids get far enough from one edge they are too close to the other for my comfort, especially if they insist on running around. I'll feel less bad about yelling at them to stay still after this thread.
I don't think you are paranoid at all. Perhaps if people took the potential dangers more seriously, we wouldn't have nearly as many tragedies. My first two space cases came on consecutive Saturdays at the B'Way Laffayette Station (both southbound too). In addition I've seen:
A teenage boy riding the roof of a #1 train, crushed to the roof when the train entered the tunnel and he was struck by a passenger bridge over the tracks in the station.
A homeless person sleeping in the space between the station roof and the street at the Prince St. station. He was sleeping (in the nude), rolled over and fell in front of an R train.
A customer jumped in front of a G train. His arms went between the 3rd rain and the protection boards as the wheels went across his back.
A woman hanging onto her purse which was caught in the door of an F train at the Union Tpke station. She was pulled tot he end of the platform where she contacted the wall at a considerable speed and then was pulled under the train.
A subway train can take a human body and reduce it to something unrecognizable in a fraction of a second. Back in the 60s, those of us who took Driver's Ed. saw a very graphic film called "Unsafe at Any Speed" which included some very graphic scenes of traffic accidents. The MTA should produce a similar film and send it to every school in the NY Metro area for "Student Commuter Education". Perhaps we would not see so many kids killed or permanently disfigured if they saw what could happen to them from subwway horseplay.
[A subway train can take a human body and reduce it to something unrecognizable in a fraction of a second. Back in the 60s, those of us who took Driver's Ed. saw a very graphic film called "Unsafe at Any Speed" which included some very graphic scenes of traffic accidents. The MTA should produce a similar film and send it to every school in the NY Metro area for "Student Commuter Education". Perhaps we would not see so many kids killed or permanently disfigured if they saw what could happen to them from subwway horseplay.]
Although I haven't seen it, I've heard on good authority that there's a video that shows a woman being hit by a Metra train outside Chicago. Somebody was videotaping the passing trains at a station and happened to catch this incident.
I couldn't help but notice this rather morbid addition, so I figured I'd tell of my experience last month.
We were approaching the station during rush hour, and naturally I couldn't breath or here the pleasant though automated next station announcement. We pulled into the station at speed and before we new it there was a scream and then a crunch and the train lurched to a very sudden stop. The jumper had hit the train before hitting the tracks so he didn't set off the guideway intrusion alarm that could have stopped the train. Anyway, the police came, and after an hour they opened the doors and interviewed a hysteric 12 year old boy who happened to have been sitting up front. Not to sound too graphic, but due to the location of the exit escalator, we all had to walk by the front of the train and notice the not-so conspicuous blood on the coupler and the white front of the train. The point is, when someone is hit by the train it can be extremely traumatic for those on board who have to sit knowing that their is a dead person under the train, and it was an experience I do NOT want to relive.
Don't you think it was traumatic for the motorman also?
That is my only fear inb the subway, being at the front of the train, watching out the window (my usual MO) and seeing this happen. I've been on only one train that had an 'accident', although I would tend to call it 'idiot interference' person lost their left leg (according to the news reports) afdter attempting to board moving 4 train between cars at Union Square, of all places.
-Hank
What train was this????????
The one where the person hit the train instead of the tracks?
I've seen it; it is now part of an A&E documentry on crossing accidents. Comes it in favor of the RRs...situation was a stopped train on a local track, she steps in front of it, looks towards the camera (opposite direction from the train she had gotten off) and steps directly into the path of express operating on the center track, in the same direction as the train she had been on. The body slammed into the cameraman rather violantly, and the tape ends.
-Hank
Just think of what that camaraman went threw
Yesterday afternoon (Nov.7) at about 6:25PM Simon and I saw (from the front of #9124) some imbecile (others watching had more graphic words for him) wandering on the express tracks at the north end of the 72nd Street station. It looked for all the world like he went between the last two cars of the southbound #3 which was stopped there! The motorman of the #2 tooted his horn a few times and the wanderer reappeared behind the #3 (he apparently went behind the last car) and went off behind the curtain wall of the s/b platform and into the tunnel. We then went on our merry way to 96th St. This guy could have killed himself out there, walking over third rails and around moving trains etc.
I have more adventures to share from yesterday, they'll be in separate posts.
Wayne
When I was in NY this summer, there were some bored kids amusing themselves on the 7 by going between cars and climbing up on the gates that separate the cars. This was obviously idiotic and nervewracking even to watch, but thrilling I guess for those stupid kids. They were always a slip away from the rails, or the street.
I am suprised that NYCT lets people walk between cars. I guess I'm not used to it as you are not allowed to walk between cars in Toronto.
I also saw what Hank was describing, a guy jump between cars on a moving train as it was leaving the station, so he wouldn't have to wait for the next one. This happened at Grand Central on Lex exp during rush hour. I guess he didn't want to wait two minutes for the next train.
And if the person is injured or killed through no fault of the crew, they are taken out of service, have their time cut pending restoration to duty, go down to Jay St. to submit to mandatory urine testing, go to the TA doctor for a full physical on the next business day, and have their work location & work hours changed probably to some smelly & demeaning platform job until the results & investigation are complete. Since many of us pick hours & work location to coincide with our family schedules, this can create problems at home if we have young children and the spouse works as well.
There are bilingual labels on every storm door which say, "Riding between cars is prohibited!" This isn't a problem on the 75-foot cars, as the storm doors are kept locked. I'd have to say that some people are either thrill seekers, or just plain stupid.
I was on a B train of slant R-40s a few years back, and made my way to the first car while running on the West End elevated portion even though it was pouring rain. Of course, I waited until the train had stopped at a station before attempting to walk between cars.
"Riding between cars is prohibited!"
That statement is unclear though. "Riding" could mean staying between the cars as opposed to just passing through.
It seems to be genearlly accepted that it is okay to walk between cars while trains are moving.
In fact on the 1 train, the conductor tells people to "move to the first five cars" before it gets to South Ferry. As he says this between stations (at least when I was on). That implies that passangers are supposed to move between cars if they are not in the first five. Since most people don't count how many cars are ahead of them in the train when they get on, everyone moves forward. I thought it was good fun to move between cars while the train was moving along, but it probably isn't the safest thing.
Getting back to my original point, perhaps it should say "Do Not Enter" on the doors. That is clear enough.
I've always interpreted "riding between cars prohibited" meaning staying outside the cars is prohibited. I often walk between cars while the train is moving, heading for the front, although I try to avoid curves and I probably wouldn't want my kids doing it. Back in the early 1980s, lots of people spent the whole ride between cars -- I thought this is what the prohibition is against. If the TA means otherwise, perhaps the sign should say "no passing between cars except when the train is stopped in the station."
[I've always interpreted "riding between cars prohibited" meaning staying outside the cars is prohibited ... If the TA means otherwise, perhaps the sign should say "no passing between cars except when the train is stopped in the station."]
That was my interpretation as well. Note that PATH makes it clear that passing between cars on a moving train is a no-no. I can't recall the exact wording right now, but it leaves no room for doubt.
I would point out that there are sometimes safety reasons for passing between cars while the train is moving --- such as when there is some menacing person in your otherwise empty car, and you want to move close to the conductor.
Also, I've never heard of a single accident in NYC Subway history in which someone was hurt while simply walking between modern-day cars on a moving train in an orderly fashion -- as opposed to climbing the side gates, jumping on a train between cars, etc.
(If there were any such accidents, I bet they were on a pre-modification slant R-40.)
But I bet there have been none or very, very, very few.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
The announcement is supposed to be 'Use the platform at Rector St to move to the first 5 cars to get off the train at South Ferry' There is supposed to be a 1 minute wait built in to the schedule to allow this as well, according to 2 conductors I spoke to. The real 'but-heads' are the ones when we are stuck before the platform, train stopped, and the announcement is specific to the point of 'past the conductors position' Nobody counts, apparantly, and the forst car gets crowded with people afraid they missed the stop.
-HAnk
When I five directions for people to go to South Ferry IRT I tell them to ride in front of the conductor so they wont have to walk between cars. I tell them the curve is very sharp and it is not the safest thing to change cars in the curve.
According to official policy, we are the "Eyes and Ears Network" (official term). By that we are to call for police/ambulance/etc if we see a dangerous condition.If there is no booth available we can call from a pay phone and make a report later. I have told people to get inside a car. I advised them to get inside or I'd call the police-you may not care about yourself but think about the other customers. (They went inside.)
I have followed this policy- having police called twice: once for a drunk harassing passengers at Times Square BMT (With assistance fromt he booth via call-back box) and again on a train in Brooklyn with 4 youths throwing lit matches (The conductor called the police, I had to identify the youths you were ticketed and removed from the system.)
In both cases I needed no documentation since the booth (first case) and conductor (Second case) took care of the case.
In fact it was on the test I took, that if we see someone get hurt and we are off duty, we should get help for the person and stay until help arrives. Even when I am off duty, if a customer wants help or looks like they seem to be lost, I offer assistance which is accepted 99% of the time. I even get asked PATH, Metro North, LIRR, Amtrak, NJT questions. Once in Philly I was even asked SEPTA, PATCO, and yes-MBTA questions! (One PATCO employee actually thought I worked for MBTA in Boston!)
Like Steve, I try not to see too much but if the condition, or potential condition is serious I "must" get involved for the safety of others. In fact I try to ride up in the front car on NJT and PATH so the crew knows I am on board if needed (and yes, I do pay my regular fare- I do not ride those systems for free.) In fact, many passengers on those systems ask me about subway or commuter rail or even Amtrak info! Once on PATH, the midtown service was suspended due to unknown reason. I gave the conductor on ym World Trade Center bound train the info for alternate service via subway and the conductor advised the passengers of the choices. I even stood at the platform for several moments to see if anyone required subway info (they did not). I am a public sevrant and as such I look out for the public
"Riding between cars is prohibited!"
That statement is unclear though. "Riding" could mean staying between the cars as opposed to just passing through.
It seems to be genearlly accepted that it is okay to walk between cars while trains are moving.
In fact on the 1 train, the conductor tells people to "move to the first five cars" before it gets to South Ferry. As he says this between stations (at least when I was on). That implies that passangers are supposed to move between cars if they are not in the first five. Since most people don't count how many cars are ahead of them in the train when they get on, everyone moves forward. I thought it was good fun to move between cars while the train was moving along, but it probably isn't the safest thing.
Getting back to my original point, perhaps it should say "Do Not Enter" on the doors between cars. That is clearer.
"Although I haven't seen it, I've heard on good authority that there's a video that shows a woman being hit by a Metra train outside Chicago. Somebody was videotaping the passing trains at a station and happened to catch this incident."
The videotaped incident you speak of is included, along with three or four staged incidents, on an Operation Lifesaver video that they go around and play in the various Metra stations. The OL people set up a video machine and a table with their safety pamphlets (very good, very comprehensive) and coffee and donuts. The donuts encourage the commuters waiting for the train to come over, take a pamphlet, and maybe watch the video (3-5 minutes long).
The incident looks like it happened some time ago, because the locomotive is a F9 of some kind, in Burlington Northern livery, rather than one of the presently-used locos in Metra paint. OL stops the footage a split-second before the woman is going to be hit. The staged incidents are actually more gory, including footage of an automobile with dummies inside being smashed by a train and dragged down the tracks.
I would bet that if you mailed away to OL, they'd sell you the Metra safety video, including the aforementioned incident. (I doubt they'd sell the incident tape!) They sell rail safety books, posters, and videos. I don't know the address for Illinois OL, which operates the safety program on the Metra system, but the national address is www.oli.org and you can link from there to the local chapter.
Those are BN E9s, and the incident occured within the last 5 years...
-Hank
Your mention of children playing on a narrow platform reminds me of an incident I witnessed at Reservoir Station on Boston's Riverside Line back when the Picture Window PCC cars were still running. I was riding an outbound car at the time, and two boys were playing on a somewhat snow covered (slippery) platform. One boy lost his footing, and slid onto the rails just as a car pulled into the station. As far as I know the boy lost both legs. The motorman never saw him due to stairs and a curve in the tracks emerging from a long dark underpass. The (T) posted a six mph limit at that location soon after as a precaution against a repeat. The platform was later moved east and widened when the area was rebuilt, improving the visibility but the six mph limit remains.
Rail stations are not a place for horseplay!
Gerry
That's an ancient urban legend. The version I like is the one where the cop goes upstairs to buy the poor twisted guy his last beer. Notice how a priest or rabbi never comes to comfort the guy in this tale, I wonder what that means.
But since we are on the topic of gruesome transit deaths - Way back in 1975 a local moron tries to hitch a brief ride on the doors of a 'F' train pulling into Avenue I. Unfortunately for him the train was only passing through. I guess that whatever drugs he was on clouded his judgement. He lost his grip at about Foster Avenue and was sliced crossways at his chest. He and his guts were splattered all over McDonald Avenue. They closed the street for hours to find and mop up this awful mess. Legend also has it that he briefly survived the initial slicing and was screaming as he fell to the street, I just don't see how. Worse than Humpty Dumpty. Hope I didn't ruin anyone's dinner.
That sounds more like legend than truth. A person severed mid-chest would have heart/lung damage that would be likely instantly fatal. Cut a bit lower and they may survive a very short time although I doubt it. However, imagine a limb severed by a subway train. Axle load of roughly 10 tons means 10,000 pounds of pressure per wheel across the wound. That much pressure tends to seal the wound behind the 'cut'. It's hardly permanent though.
What do you mean by "carriges." The space between a subway car and the platform is too small for a person to fall between, except in places like Union Square, a curved station where the gap is filled in by moving wooden platform extenders after the train stops. The area between the cars is too large for a person to become trapped -- they'd fall though to the track and face danger from the wheels.
"Carriages" = "Coaches" = "Cars". I tend, in everyday conversation, to use carriages or coaches when I'm referring to a railway car so that the listener is not thinking that I mean an automobile when I mean a rail car.
The space in question is the space between two cars *and* the platform.
Yes I saw this episode; it was filmed I believe at the Shot Tower station in Baltimore (which they renamed "Inner Harbor"); it starred
Baltimore Metro #117 (and her mate #116). It was quite maudlin and did NOT have a happy ending. As soon as #117 was moved, the protagonist died.
I have a novel "Under Ground" by Michael Daly; chapter Four of this grisly book discusses a similar incident involving a #1 train at Times Square, perhaps one of the writers read the book and picked it up. I haven't heard of anybody getting stuck between car and platform in the NYC system; people getting their bags caught and being dragged, yes.
I am ever mindful of my own Targus bag and the closing doors when I travel.
Wayne
The episode was certainly filmed in Baltimore, but at the Johns Hopkins Hospital end if the line. Part of the station (the eastern end, toward the tail tracks) was renamed "Inner Harbor" with signs pasted over the regular Johns Hopkins Hospital signs. The cars used were 116-117 (Budd, 1982; married pair) and the MTA thoughtfully provided a large sign informing patrons what was actually going on.
Having taped the documentry on Channel 13, and seeing how they did the 'trap', I'm surprised they left the car numbers in place. That was the only way a layman could tell that it was a prop wall between 2 different cars. I thought it was an excellent episode. As for whether it can actually happen, the setup is that they were pushed and fell between the 2 subway cars; had the train been stopped, he would have hit the trackbed. As the train was in motion, he got squeezed in between the car and platform edge, his lower body twisting as the train moved him against the platform (like a rack and pinion steering set; the train being the rack)
I would believe it entirely possible, if the train were moving fast enough. If it moved slowly, in all likelyhood the victim would have fallen completely through the space, and killed by the train as it rolled over him.
Now the big question is, has it ever happened? Well, in 150+ years of train service of all types, I would have to believe this occured at least once, somewhere.
-Hank
Cunningham & DeHart's "History of the NYC Subway System" (Part III) describes an incident occurring on 10-7-74. It reports that "a child was trapped between an "AA" train and the 135th St. platform. Riders leaned their weight against the car to tilt it so the child could be moved. In spite of their cooperative teamwork the boy later died."
Don't know anything about the mechanics of being trapped in the subway.
Being trapped by something very heavy is a fairly common situation, as accidents go. It happens in auto accidents (and has been the plot of both CHiPs and Rescue 911). It also happens in earthquakes all the time. What can happen is that the trapped person is injured in some way that does not become life threatening until the weight is removed. The victim may have serious internal injuries, severed blood vessels, or even amputated arms, legs, etc., and not even feel pain or is not aware of the injury (depending on the situation). The pressure from the heavy object prevents the victim from bleeding to death. However, once the weight is removed, the person goes into shock and bleeds to death in short order.
Stories of people having "last goodbyes" probably have nothing to do with restaring the machine (as in an earlier post) but with the fact that, before modern medicine, EMS, etc., people knew that the injured person was unlikely to survive, and so they contacted the family before freeing the trapped person. I suspect that this sort of accidental death is less common today that even 20 years ago, mostly due to improved trauma facilities.
--mhg
I did not see the episode you are referring to but unfortunately, I have been involved in four (4) such incidents during the 2 1/2 years that I was a Road Car Inspector. They are tastelessly referred to as 'Space Cases'. In such an incident, the body is crushed and twisted as it's rolled between the car body and the platform edge. In all four incidents I was involved in, the person was alive when I arrived at the scene. To extracate the person, we use air bags to push the car body away from the platform edge. Sadly, it is the pressure of te car and platform that holds the person's internal organs in place. In all four incidents, as soon as we relieved the pressure, the person expired.
Many years ago, a friend of mine responded to a similar incident at Smith-9th St. He got all of the passengers off the train and had them push on the car body to free the person who was trapped. The person survived because of his quick actions and he was given a commendation by then mayor, Ed Koch. He subsequently learned that the person survived but is now a quadrapalegic. My friend says that knowing the outcome, he'd never do it again......
I don't know if any of you have seen these. On HBO they stick cameras in a taxi cab in various cities and the cab driver tries to get the customers to talk to do what ever comes natural. There have been sex in the back seat and people talking about how they murder people.
On one of the first ones (I think they are up to 6) there is a NYPD ESU officer talking about an incident that supposedly happened in our subway exactly like what happened in Homicide.
Intresting no? Cab story thing could be a total fake as well... That's television.
The writer for "Homicide" episode "The Subway" (re-named and listed in tv guides as "The Accident" by NBC) saw the HBO "Taxicab Confessions" episode and used it as the basis for the story. PBS ran a 2 hour documentary on the writing and filming of the episode this past Wed., 11/4/98. Included was the entire 40 minute finished episode--without commercials! You might be able to catch a repeat of it, the title is: "Anatomy of a Homicide: Life on the Street".
The problem and the outcome is exactly as Steve described. The victim lives as long as he isn't moved (about 30 min). But, as his condition worsens, the bags are inflated to move the car away from the platform, he is extricated, and before BCFD and EMS get the stretcher out of the station, he is dead.
The episode won a Peabody Award. Both the screen writer, James Yoshimeura, and the actor who played the victim, Vincent D'Onofrio, received Emmy nominations. Andre Braugher, who plays Det. Frank Pembleton won an Emmy for best actor.
As I am writing this, I am watching the subject episode on Channel 13 (PBS). It looks very realistic although I do not remember the victim bring so lucid. In any event, the scene is very realistic and extremely hard to watch....
Just a quick note...on the opening page, it says subway signals: a compleat guide instead of complete guide.-Nick
It might not be an error -- there was once a book on fishing called the "Compleat Angler" (written before there was a commonly-agreed spelling), and many writers title their guide to a particular topic "The Compleat (whatever)". It's meant to imply that the thing is the definitive guide to that topic.
"Compleat" is in my dictionary (Oxford Concise). Maybe yours is defective :-)
-Dave
I've never seen it spelled that way, but I'll take your word for it.-Nick
From the WWWebster Dictionary
Main Entry: com·pleat
Pronunciation: k&m-'plEt
Function: adjective
Etymology: archaic variant of complete in The Compleat Angler (1653) by Izaak Walton
Date: 1526
It is now official, the RNC will hold "GOP 2000 In The Cradle of Liberty."
Any thoughts for the public transportation upgrades, successes or failures?
If SEPTA has any sense, they will try to operate the system at peak efifciency during the convention and should give conventioneers a break on fares.
Because Republicans tend to have a suburban or rural constituency, they are not very familiar with urban transit, and tend to believe all the nasty stereotypes about it (slow, dirty, only poor and minorities as passengers). If that stereotype can be dispelled in at least some conventioneers -- especially the clearly-false belief that the middle class doesn't ride transit -- it certainly wouldn't hurt when funding time rolls around.
My congressional district in the City of Chicago had a Republican Congressman for one term, and being that he represented an urban district, he pushed for more federal money for the CTA. It was somewhat of a shame for him to get replaced by a Democrat -- it was (at least in my mind) worth more to have a pro-transit voice on the right side of the House aisle than to have another Democrat, who would tend to vote pro-transit regardless.
That's a big "if", John, since we know where SEPTA's heads are usually buried. But seriously, SEPTA does have opportunities here, especially since the convention activities will be taking place at the First Union Center, right next to the Pattison end of the Broad Street Line. With many of the hotel rooms in Center City, 10-15 minutes away by subway, it would make sense to promote this heavily. As of right now, however, no improvements are planned for large-scale changes in the system (and none could likely be in place by the time the convention rolls around, anyway). What will probably happen is that SEPTA will run "Phlash" buses between hotels and the Center, since the city officials will probably not want to subject convention-goers to possible adverse conditions (and crime, which will get publicized heavily) on the subway. Let's hope they come to their senses.
Can't expresses/Convention specials be run from the major hotel areas (City Hall & Walnut/Locust) to Pattison upper or lower level?
This can't be any worse than Army-Navy at Vets Stadium, except it's spread out over several days and throughout the day, rather than a 4 hour time period. But (here's the catch!) with prior planning(!!) with the RNC Program Committee, the major crunch times could be figured out ahead of time, and extra trains ready to go. Think of the potential PR value.
Yes, expresses could be run from Walnut-Locust to Pattison. Even though this portion of the line is only two tracks, stadium expresses do it all the time for sporting events.
However, I am reminded of the Million Woman March just over a year ago, where the subway was to be a major portion of the transport of participants. It failed miserably, mainly due to miscommunication. Trains were supposed to circulate every couple of minutes from Pattison to City Hall and back, but the supervisors and others involved decided that, instead of running express trains, all trains would go local. The line was miserably overcrowded for the entire day, and another "genius" decided to drop the short-route trains and run the additional service on the entire line. Since the number of extra trains on duty was determined to be what would be needed for 'x' headways on the southern portion of line (which takes an express about 12 minutes to traverse one way), spreading these extras over the whole line meant that the service wasn't able to handle the crush loads on the southern end. This would be a good example of how NOT to handle RNC traffic.
The Army-Navy game, even though we only get it every other year lately, is usually handled smoothly. Then again, many attendees do not use the subway to get back and forth to the game.
SEPTA definitely has a role to play here and could gain itself some praise and honor if it plays the cards the right way here. With no malice toward SEPTA, its track record is not the best in these instances, and failure is a distinct possibility.
Today's Phila Inquirer had an interesting story on the M-4's. It can be accessed at phillynews.com. According to the story, 80 cars are on the property now, with all due by the third quarter (i.e. September) '99.
Perhaps they'll all be here in time for the Republican convention.
Hey, Bob . isn't that great news about the convention? Now if we can only keep the transit system running! We should have all the M-4's
running by fall 1999 like the newspaper said, and hopefully all the bugs worked out of them by then.
Chuck Greene
My feelings on the convention are mixed. It's nice to have it here, but at what cost and disruption to those who live and work here? The more Phila becomes an "it" city with visitors and conventions, the more those of us who are here 365 days of the year (366 in 2000) are inconvenienced greatly for the sake of "image". I guess I'm getting a little cynical as I get older, but...
2000 is not a leap year.
1800,1900,and the rest of the 00 years aren't.
2000 IS a leap year. The rule is every 4 years, except for the 100-year mark, UNLESS the year is also divisible by 400.
-Hank
Thanks for the "assist". We're going to have the same problem with when the 21st century starts also, since many folks mistakenly believe that 2000 will be the first year of that period, when in fact it will be the LAST year of the 20th century.
ABC News also had a story on tonight on the misspelling of the word "millennium". Most folks leave out one 'n'.
I was listening to WWDB on Sunday and the overnight host was talking about how the city will "suddenly change" when the convention arrives. More street lights on South Broad St/Ave. of the Arts/Tindley Blvd(how 'bout Jack St?)
Cleaning up lots and they even qouted the Inky as going so far to say "clear drunk and hardcore homeless people from the streets".
To where, kennels?
She also said that they would clean the subway stations at Pattison and the City Hall complex. I'm sorry, but I don't see the delegates in the subway.
It's too bad. Maybe those delegates need to see some urban problems up close and personal. The way folks are talking around these parts, that ain't gonna happen in Phila in '00. Those delegates will be on express buses in special lanes on Broad St and other local highways.
You've heard of course about all the "special changes"(read:putting citizens out) that will occur beacuse of "20Con".
Broad St. and lanes on the Walt Whitman Bridge(anyone who uses that bridge won't like this) will be reserved at times for the delegates. Alternate roadways? 13th Street? Yeah, right. To NJ? "Oh the Ben Franklin is only 5 miles that way".
I hope the convention brings all the great benefits that NBC10(:) purports, and I guess we'll have to live with the inconvenience, only for a week.
Maybe they should push next years' Rolling Stones concert back a few months to give the Republicans some freindly competition:):):):)
Do any models of NYC subway cars use electronically controlled pneumatic brakes? Freight railroads are experimenting with them. ECP brakes activate the brakes on all cars instantaneously, reducing slack action and stopping distances. It is also claimed to reduce wear and tear on brake shoes.
When the cubic turnstiles were first activated for the test metrocard period in 1993, they used a blue metrocard that looked similar to the blue card used when the card was sold to the general public with the exception that instead of having the card say MTA it actually had the "M" on it. Does anyone have this card and if so, could they post a picture of it.
I have about a dozen old blues, incl 3 w/graphics, but all are MTA.
However I do have a "Test Period Only" Transfer that has "M". It also says "For use on subway at 149th St & 3rd Ave only" and is dated October 14, 1992. I also have a couple of orange Trans @ 1.25.
Mr t__:^)
I have often wondered how BMT and IRT
handled their "joint" operation in Queens.
I remember seeing the hashed markings on therse
lines when I was a child in the forties.
But I di not get to ride these lines until the eighties.
To my understanding, there were 8 tracks on 2 levels at Queensboro Plaza, which led to the Queensboro Bridge, Steinway Tunnel, Flushing line, and Astoria line. These were all IRT-spec lines. The BMT ran trains from the 60 st tunnel to QBP, and passengers transfered to the IRT-type cars (or BMT Q cars) for the Astoria or Flushing lines.
-Hank
Hank -- Tanx
This leads to two new questions.
1. Did both IRT and BMT run to both Astoria and Flushing?
2. If the BMT ran Q cars which are IRT spec, where did they
terminate in Manhattan? For example some onbe going to Coney
Island would have to change BMT lines/cars someplace.
(1) Yes. BMT elevated-type trains (Q types and earlier ones) ran from QB Plaza to both Astoria and Flushing. IRT 2nd Ave. elevated trains ran from South Ferry to Astoria and 111th Street via Queensboro Bridge (service ended in 1942). IRT steel subway cars ran from Times Square to Astoria and Flushing.
(2) BMT el trains from Flushing and Astoria teminated at QB Plaza on the now-vanished north side. The inbound Flushing train became the outbound Astoria train, and vice versa. BMTsteel subway trains to/from Manhattan and Brooklyn (60th Street tunnel) ended at QB Plaza, where BMTpassengers had to transfer. These trains were usually Brighton or 4th Ave. locals. Of course, BMT passengers could also transfer to IRT trains or 2nd Ave. el at no charge - this was the only free interdivisional or intercompany transfer in NYC until 1948. BMT subway trains could not run north of QB Plaza because both Astoria and Flushing lines were IRT specs.
In October 1949 this was revised to the present setup. The Times Square-Flushing route became solely an IRT route. The Astoria el station platforms were cut back to BMT main line clearances and through service on the Brighton and 4th Ave. locals was operated to Astoria. A simple cross platform transfer was established between the BMT and IRT. The northern half of the station was closed and dismantled in the late 1950's.
> Of course, BMT passengers could also transfer to IRT
> trains or 2nd Ave. el at no charge - this was the only free
> interdivisional or intercompany transfer in NYC until
> 1948. BMT subway trains could not run north of QB Plaza
> because both Astoria and Flushing lines were IRT specs.
Actually, you couldn't tranfer between the South (IRT) and North
(BMT) sides of Queensboro Plaza without paying another fare.
However, if you rode out to one of the stops East of there on
the Astoria or Flushing lines, you could make the tranfer.
Here is the Queensboro Plaza Rundown...
Southernmost pair of upper/lower tracks were and still are the connection to the Steinway Tunnel
The next pair north were the connection to the 2nd Av. El via the Queensboro Bridge. They are now connected to the 60th St. Tunnel.
Double crossovers east of the station on both levels provided a connection between the two routes and the Corona/Astoria Lines. Trackage from here continued on the upper level to the two branches.
The next pair of tracks to the north were dead-ended west of the station. These were used to turn BMT El trains arriving from Astoria and Corona and allow them to connect with the tunnel trains across the platforms. I am not sure whether those tracks continued to a dead end west of the station or not.
The northernmost pair of tracks were used as a terminal for 60th St. Tunnel Trains, and were set up for 10 foot wide equipment. A tail track east of the station was constructed on the former Astoria structure while the Corona structure was modified to serve both lines.
The BMT structures ran on a lower level than the IRT and emerged between the express and local tracks of the latter. Today the remains of the leads to the north half of the station can be seen on both branches. The IRT express tracks were later cut back east of the junction on the Corona line.
Gerry
I was just wandering the 'www.silive.com' website, and discovered the forums there. I have to say, my fellow Staten Islanders are a bunch of misinformed, 'all for me and none for anyone else' idiots...Just read the transit forum....and you'll get a kick out of the rest as well.
-Hank
One thing I wonder is, does the secession referendum SI passed still have legal weight. If all that is needed is a "home rule" message from the Council, SI might find itself kicked out of the city in the next administration.
All that seccession needs to be voted upon in the state house/assemply is a home rule message which will never come.
-Hank
(Home rule message?) Who knows what will come? Say Moynihan retires and Rudy wins his seat. That makes Mark Green, a Rip Van Winkle liberal (hasn't noticed anything that has happened since 1973), the Mayor for a year, since he is the current Public Advocate. He may want to shed Staten Island, and its conservative votes, to get re-elected. Its a nightmare.
My favorite scenario is Mark Green against Rudy for Senate -- the loser is the Mayor. Of course Pataki can run for Senate. Who the hell is Mary Ann Donohue, the new lietenant governor?
I would immagine that the Island generates less in tax $$'s than it receives in services. How would they operate if not part of the city?
What are the state aid formulas like? How would they change?
Actually, all the studies show about an equal balance. As for infrastructure, like fire dept, police, etc, the theory is that since the island has been paying for these services for so long, they continue. There were extensive studies done and published in the "BI" era, so you'll have to go to the library to find the info.
-Hank
Is there still much pro-seccession sentiment on Staten Island? A few years ago, there was a lot on the news about it, but lately it seems to have faded from view. Were the prospects of higher property taxes enough to dampen the enthusiasm?
The Staten Island Secession Commission released a report on the feasibility of secession, which I was asked to review.
It assumed that the state would allow it to limit public employment on Staten Island to Staten Islanders, while allowing Staten Islanders to hold New York City jobs, that New York City would be forced to supply water to Staten Island at cost while Staten Island would be able to charge high rates to use the landfill, that Staten Island would continue to use Rikers Island prision, that Staten Island would be forced to accept less than its per capita share of NYC debt, etc. etc. On that basis, it found a modest rise in property taxes would be required.
You could say Staten Islanders were sold a bill of goods. But a poll at the time found that most Staten Islanders were in favor of seccession even if a one-third rise in property taxes would be required.
Just duscovered that there are at least three (3) different Continental Airlines MetroCards:
- Orig = "Work Hard Fly Right"
- "It's How You'd Run An Airline"
- "Want The World ? We're Selling Tickets."
Mr t__:^)
I found three Continental Airlines MetroCards, Each with "Work Hard. Fly Right" near the lower right corner.
In larger letter towards the center of the card, one reads "OUR PRIORITIES ARE SIMPLE. THEY'RE YOURS." The other two are the latter two you described: "It's How You'd Run An Airline" and "Want The World ? We're Selling Tickets."
Is there another with just "Work Hard. Fly Right" on it?
Also, any idea of the story about the one with a blue back with a white skyline and the MTA logo in the middle of an apple in place of the use instructions? I found one with a 12/31/99 expiration on it.
Marc,
- The 1st one I believe was "Work Hard Fly Right" only.
- I haven't seen the "Our Priorities Are Simple. They're Yours", if you've got a extra I'ld love to trade (send me a private message).
- White skyline ... nope haven't heard about it, but then there are a number that I know I don't have. Maybe someone else can comment.
- Hoping for our Subway agent friend to announce the new batch that are comming ?
Mr t__:^)
I found three Continental Airlines MetroCards, each with "Work Hard. Fly Right" near the lower right corner.
In larger letter towards the center of the card, one reads "OUR PRIORITIES ARE SIMPLE. THEY'RE YOURS." The other two are the latter two described previously: "It's How You'd Run An Airline" and "Want The World ? We're Selling Tickets."
Is there another with just "Work Hard. Fly Right" on it?
Also, any idea of the story about the one with a blue back with a white skyline and the MTA logo in the middle of an apple in place of the use instructions? I found one with a 12/31/99 expiration on it.
Marc,
P.S. re dates ... I have several expiring 12/31/99 and one 01/31/00.
When they're initilized, in Maspeth, they get a expiration date, it's about a year. If the card ends up being a "unlimited" then you have to START using the card before that expiration date, e.g. for 30 day it would be 11/30/99. If it's a LIRR Main-N-Ride, then the date has no bearing on the use. And for a VALUE card you can keep filling it back up until you near the expiration date, i.e. you DO NOT have to throw the card away when you use up the money, although collectors love to get cards in pristine condition ;-)
Mr t__:^)
Here are the new cards that I know about:
Contintenl Airlines (Already discussed on this site)
A fouir card set---not available at token booths**on health care in NYC. Obtain from metrocard merchants, NY Historical Society or the Museum of the city of new york.
When I see bulletinsd for new prmotional (graphical) metrocards I will post on this BBS.
once again the health care set is ***not* sold in the system.
This week they started issuing cards with expiration dates above the year 2000. I guess the Y2K bug will not affect the MTA. The only change I noticed is that on the back the strip to write things on is gone. I got mine @ Nevis St.
I think, personal opinion, that they did a "quick fix" for Y2K with the cards. They probably made 1993 or 1994 the first year, so 92 will be the last year (or maybe they did 57?[the year the TA started])
I will check the cards in 01/1999 to see what happens- whether they will be "expired" or if they are still good. I will post the results of my personal experiences.
Yesterday, I decided to finish riding the #1/9 line to the end and
took the A train from Columbus Circle to 168th street. I waited for an
R38, and, around 3:45 pm, headed north for what I had hoped was going
to be a thrill-a-minute express ride. :) Was I ever wrong. :( The
posted speed limit down there seemed to be 35 and the motorman (who
oddly enough had his door clamped open an inch or two) averaged about
33 the whole way, maybe reaching 36 for couple of seconds. Was I ever
disappointed. Was it ever faster?
As a former IND "A" train rider, that route had seen its original glory speed even back when the R-10's ruled that line.
On two separate occasions as documented by myself and Wayne ("R-40"), the R-10's were able to operate between 59th Street-Columbus Circle and 125th Street (once in each direction) in a total running time of just five minutes (rather than the scheduled seven) on that portion alone.
Many others (even myself) would also tell about the mad speed runs on this route (among others) between 59th Street and 42nd Street going southbound, and between 181st Street and 190th Street going northbound
(although they now have timer signals on the latter section I mentioned).
My last personal ride on the "A" line north of 59th Street-Columbus Circle occurred on June 26, 1998 going southbound from 190th Street (now my former home station). Now I must be contented in riding the IRT #7 Flushing and/or IND Queens Blvd. corridor routes going between Manhattan and my new home in Jackson Heights.
-William
I rode several A trains along CPW and 8th Ave. during my visit three weeks ago, mostly on R-38s with two R-44 rides thrown in when I wasn't able to wait for R-38s. Top speed for either class along CPW was 38 mph. Surprisingly, there was no dropoff in speed with the R-44s, especially on the runaway dash from 59th St. to 42nd. Both classes of cars reached 43 mph, although it seemed as though they were doing at least 55. The same was true between 34th and 14th Sts. with speeds of 36-37 mph while skipping 23rd St. and approaching 40 mph on the downhill run to 14th. IMHO, the R-10s used to do about the same along those stretches. Here's one theory: it may be that the R-10s gave the impression that they were going a lot faster because they were a bit noisier. I won't dispute the notion that the R-10s were faster along CPW than the R-38s and R-44s are today, simply because they were. So were the R-1/9s, R-32s, and slant R-40s.
From my own experience of standing on the uptown platform at 81st St., the R-1/9s used to howl past, the R-10s thundered by, and the R-32s streaked effortlessly. BTW, I liked Gene Sansone's comment in his book on how the R-32s were referred to as "jackrabbits". The R-10s, meanwhile, were known as "German Pinzers".
Nothing will ever take the place of the R-10s. Nothing.
P. S. I wonder just how fast the slant R-40s ran along the Queens portion of the E and F lines when they were new. If the R-1/9s could fly along that stretch, I can just imagine how the slants fared!
I remember the R110 A train passing by at 23rd street
It passed by pretty fast with a humm that reminded me of being on the inside of a plane when it was taking off.
Many years ago (1972-1974) I used to live in Elmont LI and work in NYC and I used to seek out the A/C'd Slant 40s whenever they were available. (I used the "F" rather than the "E", preferring the express.) The R-6s and Slant 40s ruled the roost on the "E" and "F" lines. I remember many a trip where the Slant R40 or the R-6 would reach (ESTIMATED) speeds of 50+ MPH along some stretches. One spot where they would really rip was on the Queens-bound Express between Union Turnpike and Parsons Blvd. R40s in particular liked to take that broad curve between Van Wyck and Sutphin at top flight speed, although the R-6s didn't fare badly if the light was green. The Bull gears would get up to A-Flat above Middle C when they got to 50+.
The R-6s would also bounce from side to side and up and down in the 53rd Street East River tunnel. The Slant 40s provided a smoother ride. I used to call the Non-A/C Slant R40s "Hotboxes" (borrowing the term used to describe an overheated wheel journal bearing) because they got uncomfortably hot in the summer, their high-power blower fans nonwithstanding. These fans would collect soot and track dust and distribute it around the housing and car ceiling. Some of this dust actually got in behind the backlighted advertising signs, making the lights seem dimmer. The R40A's didn't have this problem, as they were born with A/C. The bellwether for the A/C cars was always the unit number: 4350 thru 4449. I had the pleasure of riding #4316 and #4399 on Saturday. Nothing beats a Slant R40.
Wayne
Don't tell me you have absolute pitch! (I do.)
A flat above middle C translates to hauling ass in anyone's book. You're really moving at that pitch! The BMT standards used to hit A flat regularly when they would bottom out in the 14th St. tunnel. By the time they got to 1st Ave. or Bedford Ave., they would be moaning at about D flat. The highest pitch I ever remember hearing on the R-1/9s was F# above middle C: on an uptown D along CPW (I never did get a chance to ride an A of old-timers on that stretch; in fact, I could count on one hand the number of A trains of R-1/9s I ever rode) and on that memorable ride back in 1968 on an E in Queens, of all trains.
Those R-1/9s were music to my ears. I loved the way they moaned, groaned, and whined, plus their braking sounds and door sounds. Not to mention watching the conductor work the trigger boxes while perched on the step plates. The real irony is that I rode more trains of IND old-timers on the Canarsie in 1969-70 than I ever did on the IND lines themselves! Most of my IND rides back then were on A trains of R-10s and D trains of R-32s.
In addition to being a subway aficionado, I have been musically trained since the age of 6. I played the violin (still own one, and am terribly rusty), then switched to guitar and bass in my teens.
The "A Flat" of the R6 Bull gears represent the very top speed these trains reached, the straightaway approaching Parsons Blvd. I also remember hearing "F" and "F#" from those on the express runs.
Some of the door chimes go "E"-"C", some go "F"-"Db", some go "D#"-"B". Ever been on a train where each one sounds a different pitch? Then there's #1992 on the #3 - the chimes are reversed.
My next musical project - listen to and digest "Eroica" (Ludwig's #3)
Next subway photo project - photograph and document the erection of the new tile panels at Chambers Street's "A" platform, which I understand is currently underway.
Wayne
Well, I declare - a fellow musician. As Mel Allen used to say, "How about that?" I have a BS in music education, and never put the drumsticks and timpani mallets away since leaving college. (I tell people that absolute pitch is good for only one thing: tuning timps rapidly.) Beethoven ranks as my all-time favorite composer; I've played all of his symphonies except the ninth. The Eroica is a great piece of music; Beethoven broke new ground with it. Did you know that you could take the first theme in the funeral march movement and, with a little alteration, turn it into "I've Been Working on the Railroad"?
Anyway, back to whining traction motors. While I did get to ride trains of R-1/9s on every IND route except the HH and the old BB and new B before they departed from the scene, these rides were few, no more than a dozen on any given route, and most of them were on locals. For the most part, their bull and pinion gears would reach D or E above middle C regularly. The first D train of R-1/9s I rode up CPW (one of three that I can remember) reached F#, as did that E train in Queens in 1968 (also the first of three on that route). The only other significant express jaunt I ever took on those cars was on a Manhattan-bound rush hour E running express along Fulton St. in July 1969, passing an A train of R-1/9s along the way. I went all the way to Far Rockaway on the outbound trip, and that A train of R-10s rocketed between Howard Beach and Broad Channel!
Yes, most of the door chimes sound E-C. I've heard them as low as D-B flat, and, yes, I have had to endure a train whose cars had door chimes which were not in perfect unison with each other. Ouch! It's enough to make you run your tongue along your molars to make sure all of your fillings are still in place. I haven't encountered the one yet whose chimes are reversed. Would you prefer that the slant R-40s had chimes, or is it just as well that they don't?
BTW, if you remember the old Concentration game show from the 60s with Hugh Downs, the doorbell sound when they ran out of time also sounded E-C.
Have either of you guys ever heard the violinist who plays the William Tell overture on the F train. I've got no musical talents but he's quite god.
YES! I heard him playing aboard the F in car #6111 on August 29, 1997 between Queens Pza. and Roosevelt Avenue. He did "William Tell" and a nifty excerpt from Rimsky-Korsakov's "Flight Of The Bumblebee" - with a slick pizzicato move at the very end. I gave him two bucks for that.
Wayne
I once heard "Take the A Train" played on alto sax at 59th St.-Columbus Circle. At least the guy picked the right line to play it on.
Last month, four gentlemen serenaded everyone on the A train of R-38s we were on with the Ballad of Gilligan's Island. I think they got off at 59th St., or moved on to the next car. Nothing earth-shattering.
I like my Slant R40s just the way they are, although I do think that door chimes have their purpose. The 1964/65 Path PA-1 cars have been retrofitted with them, so I suppose putting them into the pre-R44 cars wouldn't be impossible. Last Sat. I heard an "F" at 42nd/6th close up with what sounded like three different pitches - one of which may have even been a quarter-tone! OUCH!!! This doesn't seem to be a problem on the R62s and R68/R68As.
Wayne
When the R-44s entered service, there was a delay (4 seconds?) between the sounding of the chimes and the closing of the doors. It was removed after only a few years because it turned out to be an invitation to passengers to hold the doors. The Staten Island R-44s actually kept the time delay until they were overhauled. Without the time delay, the door chimes seem pretty useless to me.
David
See what I mean? Some of those chimes are indeed a quarter-tone off. (I've already had a few fillings redone - with porcelain, to boot.) You're right: the R-44s and R-46s have this problem, while the R-62s and R-68s don't.
SEPTA's Broad Street cars are different still: They go ding-ding when the doors close and then after the train starts movign comes the ding-dong.
It's really bad when they get 'out of tune'
I've been on trains where the bell goes dong-DING! or has been either a soft 'ding' or an odd 'dong'...
-Hank (ring-a-ling-a-ding-ding)
That oddball would be #1992 on the No.3 line, maybe there are others.
I've also heard one (don't have the number - it's an R46) that goes
"ding-clunk".
Wayne
Yeah, I rode that car once, forgot the number. I was on one that only went "dong". I don't mind it: it gives the cars some personality, a little like the cars in Shining Time Station!
Why doesn't that surprise me?
How many of you remember the doorbell on Captain Kangaroo's Treasure House? It used to go, "ding-ding-ding-dong, ding-ding-ding-dong", with the "dong" an octave lower than the "dings" on a G (along the same lines as the show's theme song). On one show, the doorbell was busted and went, "ding-ding-ding-klunk, ding-ding-ding-klunk".
Just something I remembered form my days as a kid. I can't believe I actualy watched that show.
Steve,
"I've been working on the railroad?" Try the second theme of von Suppe's "Poet and Peasant Overture"! I'd bet anything that the above-mentioned song was lifted directly from there!
Bob Sklar
(another musician)
Funny you should mention Poet & Peasant Overture.
That's entirely possible. I've played that piece more than once, and know the exact section you're talking about - nice cello solo, BTW. Just didn't think about it.
I wonder how many of us Subtalkers are musicians.
I just recently traded in my 8mm camcorder for a Hi8 model, which I
believe produces much better quality picture and sound. I haven't used
it yet, and I'm planning on putting it to the test today or tomorrow.
I'm going to be shooting videos of Philadelphia's Market-Frankford
and Broad Street Lines, as well as PATCO, and the Regional Rail Lines,
and I'm planning to make copies, and sell them. Can anyone tell me
how to do this? If I was to privately sell my homemade videos, Would
I have to charge sales tax? I'm not planning on opening a business, I
will be just doing this on the side, as a hobby. I just want to know
what is legal, and what is illegal, when it comes to recording and
privately selling homemade videos. The videos will have very little,
or no narration. Hope someone here can point me in the right
direction. Thanks.
Timothy
> I just recently traded in my 8mm camcorder for a Hi8 model, which I
> believe produces much better quality picture and sound.
Very true. Hi8 sometimes has "dropouts" on the tape but it's part of the format, from what I hear. The sound is also better, especially if if records in stereo. Use Hi8 HMP (high metal particle) tape as opposed to HME (high metal evaporated) if you're going to create a master and then duplicate it many times. It's supposed to hold up better than the metal evaporated kind.
> I'm planning to make copies, and sell them. Can anyone tell me
> how to do this? If I was to privately sell my homemade videos, Would
> I have to charge sales tax? I'm not planning on opening a business,
> I will be just doing this on the side, as a hobby. I just want to
> know what is legal, and what is illegal, when it comes to recording
> and privately selling homemade videos. The videos will have very
> little, or no narration. Hope someone here can point me in the right
> direction.
When people order my tapes, I duplicate them "on demand" from 8mm/Hi8 to VHS. There's virtually no picture quality degradation doing a first generation copy from 8mm to VHS, from what I've seen. You could also pay someone to duplicate the tape for you, but sometimes there may be a minimum number of dups required that may be too high for you.
[Gut Feel ON]
I'm no tax expert so I'll just give you my gut feel on taxes. Theoretically, anything sold is subject to sales tax. Of course, private sales of things are not likely to be verified or chased down by tax assessors. Bottom line is, if you're not sure, contact your local department of taxation/revenue and ask them. The rules may vary from state to state. If you plan to do this at train shows, for example, you'll have to get a sales tax certificate in the state in which the show is conducted, you will be required to collect sales taxes and then send them to that state's department of revenue. It's no big deal because you'd be considered "seasonal" meaning you don't do business all the time. You could also state that your prices include all applicible sales taxes.
If you sell across state lines, I *think* you don't have to collect sales taxes. Supposedly it is up to the purchaser to pay the sales tax to the state. It's like out of state catalog sales. You'll see on the order form "residents of XX must apply y.yy% sales tax"; the implication is that purchasers on any other state than XX are responsible for paying the sales taxes themselves.
I believe there is a 3 year moratorium on collecting sales taxes for Internet sales, to help promote the Internet as a sales medium and/or to get more people an incentive to use it.
As for what's legal or illegal, as long as you don't record people directly, and focus on the trains, you should be OK. Otherwise, you'd have to get their permission to have them in your video first or you may risk trouble. News organizations frequently do this when they interview people. You also don't want to go anywhere off limits to passengers unless you have permission OR you have some kind of press pass. Most agencies, but not all, don't seem to mind the use of a camcorder "without peripheral equipment" such as a tripod; if you decide to use a tripod, you may be stopped by police asking what you're doing or if you have a photo permit.
[End Gut Feel]
I never had any trouble shooting videos on SEPTA property. I can tell you it is illegal to use camera or video equipment on Boston's MBTA, as I was surprisingly advised by a dispatcher at State Street on the Blue Line.
You will find that it is not only fun to take the videos, but it's even more fun to watch them from the comfort of your own living room and sharing them with others who share your interest. I started doing it simply because someone asked me a few years back if I'd sell him a copy of a video I was doing at the time (back in 1994).
You might also want to check out
my videos page on this site.
Good luck and have FUN!
--Mark
To Timothy:
Mark makes some excellent comments regarding sales tax. Assuming that you're in Pennsylvania, I'd suggest that you look up Pennsylvania Code Title 61 Section 32.4, which gives some examples of "occasional sales" that don't require tax registration (you might be able to find this online, start with www.state.pa.us). Note that the first example is a "housewife selling a used vacuum cleaner." This seems to contemplate an activity level that is much more isolated and informal than what you propose. So my suggestion is that you get a tax registration, you'll probably find the process a lot easier than you might expect. One thing to keep in mind is that if you sell your videos without registering or collecting sales tax, the state tax authorities can go after you at any time in the future, without any statute of limitations. Would they bother you? Unlikely. But they could, so for that reason if nothing else you should keep things legal.
Yup sales tax laws differ from state to state and how much from county to county.
New York State requires out of state mail orders to collect sales tax if they sell retail within the state. Though Gateway for some reason collects tax anyway...
Funny how this tax thing came up just as we were talking to Gateway.
[Yup sales tax laws differ from state to state and how much from county to county.
New York State requires out of state mail orders to collect sales tax if they sell retail within the state. Though Gateway for some reason collects tax anyway...]
According to the Supreme Court, a mail order seller has to collect sales tax on shipments into a state only if it has a "physical presence" in that state. While usually physical presence is established by having a retail outlet in that state, there are other ways. For instance, Gateway might send service technicians into New York to handle complicated problems with their computers. That would be enough to create physical presence. Or it's possible that Gateway simply wants to collect the tax so its New York customers don't get hit with use tax bills (something that would not create too many satisfied customers).
Interesting. When I bought my Dell, I was told over the phone that "I am responsible for paying my own sales tax". They did not collect it from me. When I required service (defective graphics card), they sent a contractor to perform the service - Dell personnel didn't actually do it themselves.
--Mark
[Interesting. When I bought my Dell, I was told over the phone that "I am responsible for paying my own sales tax". They did not collect it from me. When I required service (defective graphics card), they sent a contractor to perform the service - Dell personnel didn't actually do it themselves.]
Dell is being careful to avoid creating a physical presence in your state. Their plan won't work in all states, as many consider the use of an independent contractor to perform warranty work to be a form of physical presence. Also, their caution about your responsibility to pay your own sales tax (technically called use tax) is smart customer relations. If someone buys from an out-of-state computer vendor without getting any such warning, and later gets a use tax assessment, they're unlikely to be a repeat customer.
This week, the Toronto Star had feature length articles on the NYCT, MARTA, WMATA, BART and the TTC. The link to the aritcle about the TTC is:
http://www.thestar.com/thestar/editorial/toronto/981106NEW01_CI-TORTRANS6.html
From there the articles about the other cities can be accessed.
Got an "official" word back from TA-AFC group. The one day unlim. MC is not comming this year. Apparently it's introduction has something to do with the "ATM" type machines that are about to be installed in small numbers. Early next year is what I was told.
Disclaimer: I don't work for the TA or DOT.
Mr t__:^)
I'd also therorize that maybe they're waiting for the new subway cars given that a one day "fun" pass might cause a rather LARGE increase in subway useage - and the current system appears to be getting stretched in terms of handling the ridership.
Of course, I'd much rather see the TA not being able to meet ridership demands than running empty trains around.
I've heard that ridership in Chicago is also up? maybe mass transit is becomming the in thing now?
Just wondering Thurston, who the hell do you work for????
To any who are querious ... I've sent Fernando a private message, so I for some reason YOU too just have to know, ASK (just click on my name in this message).
Mr t__:^)
About a week ago, you (Dave) mentioned that you would have new info on the delievery date of the R142's. If you have it, please post it. If you don't have it yet, when do you think you will?-Nick
I don't think I ever said that.
I don't work for New York City Transit.
The NYCT employees who post here will surely have more information and in a more timely manner than I would.
-Dave
Ok, maybe I had a misunderstanding then. If anybody has new info on the tentative arrival of the first R142's, please let me know. Last I heard was April '99, and the delievery completed by early 2000.-Nick
A while back I made a post asking why a passageway between the IND and IRT at a station was closed. In one person's reply, they noted that there are a lot of these passageways which are closed because of security concerns (i.e., the city is afraid of being sued by someone getting mugged in one of these passageways.)
Couldn't the TA reopen all the closed passageways, and at the same time protect the city from liability, by posting a sign by each passageway saying that it is unmonitored, and that you use it at your own risk?
This way the city would be protected from liability, and those of us subway riders who would like the added convenience of these connections being available, and whom are perfectly capable of protecting ourselves, would have them available to us. If you are scared of using a particular passageway--DON'T GO THERE!
[Couldn't the TA reopen all the closed passageways, and at the same time protect the city from liability, by posting a sign by each passageway saying that it is unmonitored, and that you use it at your own risk?]
A sign of this sort is unlikely to protect the city from liability.
From this week's
From this week's Subway Diversion Notices. So now the east side's even and the west side's odd?!?
2 to Bronx will run on 4 5 line
5 to Bronx will run on 2 line
3 no service between Times Sq and New Lots Av
WEEKEND Sat 6:45 AM to 11 PM; Sun 10:15 AM to 11 PM, November 14 and 15, 21 and 22
During this time, there will be no uptown service to or from the Hoyt, Clark, Wall, Fulton Sts and Park Place 2 3 stations.
* Bronx-bound 2 trains will run on the 4 5 line from Nevins St to 149 St/Grand Concourse. Transfer to the 5 at the Bowling Green station for uptown service to 2 3 stations. There will be normal southbound 2
service in Manhattan.
* Bronx-bound 5 trains will run on the 2 line from Chambers St to 149 St/Grand Concourse. There will be normal southbound 5 service.
* There will be no 3 service between Times Square and New Lots Av. The 3 will run between Times Square and 148 St only. Use the 2 to reach Brooklyn.
Perhaps one of our TA (oops, NYCT/Subways) SubTalkers has seen the GO, and can tell us how the downtown (5) running on its "normal route" will deadhead to become the uptown (5) running on the "2 line?" [An interesting, but impractical way would be to use the South Ferry loop -- in reverse!!]
Not really, this is just the reverse of what the 2 was doing. The 2 was running around South Ferry, and crossing to the lex line after the loop. A 5 train coming down the Lex line would cross over to the outer loop, run through the station, and then run to Chambers St, probably non-stop.
-Hank
Precisely. There is a crossover switch from inner to outer loop track before the station, and another crossover from outer to inner loop track after the station. They were used quite a bit when mainline Lexington Ave. trains were rerouted to the outer loop at South Ferry once the new R units began arriving. The section on disused and abandoned stations covers this arrangement in greater detail.
Say what you want, but the South Ferry loop comes in mighty handy for such reroutes.
Does anyone know what trains the BI levels are run on? Or where I could find out. I would really like to get some shots of them. I am aware that the new train is or was out of service due to braking problems. I know they are operated on the BI-LEVELS, I'd like to try to find them in the Morning if I could. I just saw the FL-9AC Train with the BI Levels Eastbound at around 5:10 at JAMAICA, But I would like to shoot them during daylight preferably morning hours.
Thanks
Charles
And as a follow-on, if anyone (Andy?) knows about weekend schedules, I'll be in NYC on Saturday Nov 14 with a few hours free in the afternoon... if they're running and some SubTalkers want to get together for a ride...
Both today and last Friday, the new bilevels were running on the 6:54 from Patchogue to Long Island City. I usually go from Medford rather than Patchogue, so I don't know if the 6:54 is always bilevel or just Fridays. The train stops at Sayville, Oakdale, Great River, Islip, Babylon, Hicksville and Mineola, reaching Jamaica at about 8:15 and Long Island City around 8:40.
On Tuesday of this past week, Isaw 1 bilevel in Jamaica Station at approximately 4:40pm.It was headed onto the Oyster Bay branch.Sorry it was Wednesday.
>On Tuesday of this past week, Isaw 1 bilevel in Jamaica Station at
>approximately 4:40pm.It was headed onto the Oyster Bay branch.Sorry
>it was Wednesday.
(!)
Are you certain it was Oyster Bay? also, you say one bilevel - yuou mean one train or a one car train?
yeah one whole train #422east end #5007 west end. 2 cars in between i couldn't get the other numbers.On the side it said Oyster Bay. The lettering was black with yellow background
There is a person selling a "NYC 8TH AVE SUBWAY DESTINATION ROLL SIGN FROM ORIGINAL INDEPENDENT SUBWAY CAR" (sic) on Ebay.
For more information:
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=39552881
I See! Sounds like the entire apparatus, crank and mechanism included. $250 is a little out of my budget right now, but I'll keep my eyes open out there for other roll signs etc. I would like Santa to put an R32 front-end curtain sign (circa 1970) in my stocking this Christmas. (Multicolored, mylar, must have "HH" "JJ" "MM" and "TT")
Wayne
Hey Wayne, I have an old N.Y.C. rollsign that reads from "A" to "HH" with an "S" for special I bought at the New Haven trolley museum about 15 years ago for $20.00. The sign is a "side sign" with the trains
primary route, like "AA" -8th ave. Local . I even had my shop make
an offset bracket to hold the crank in place. The bracket is screwed to the roll sign box. Not really authenic, but I don't have a full size subway car to put my box into! Also have one of those color
inside roll signs that show the whole route with every stop. My sign is from an "E" & "F" train. Lastly, I also have a Red Arrow front sign out of a bus, with all the Suburban stops - says "69th
Street Terminal" about 6 different places, so you don't have to wind
the thing from one end to other after each trip. Most everything
goes back to 69th st.
Sorry the stuff is so expensive now!
Chuck Greene
That was when they still had that sign shop next to the trolley stop at Farm River Rd. Apparently, the shop was closed and dismantled after the gentleman who ran it passed away. I bought an original IND sign box complete with signs for $60.00 back in 1980. That sucker is heavy; with the signs in place, it weighs 100 pounds! It had BMT Eastern Division signs, but they had IND signs available and I was able to acquire them. The route curtain has all IND combinations including both variations of the D and F (both 6th Ave. Express and 6th Ave.-Houston Express), as well as the Eastern Division routes spliced next to the A/8th Ave. Express end. The lower destination sign still has the original light sockets and wiring, and the interior side is painted that light green tint which I remember seeing on R-1s and R-4s.
Those boxes were sold as-is; apparently they were removed from the cars as they were being scrapped using bolt cutters. Every mounting screw was cut off; I managed to get them all out with the help of a pair of cutting pliers and lots of Liquid Wrench.
If that guy is, in fact, asking for $250 for that destination curtain, I would hope the mechanism is included. Even so, it does seem to be a bit steep. I picked up my destination sign at Cityana Gallery back in 1978 for something like $40. They had what appeared to be a BMT destination sign from an R-27 or R-32, but I didn't go after it. I wish I had now.
if somebody reads this message can you POSSIBLY tell me how i can get my hands on a t-shirt with the subway map on it??!! i had 1 when i was younger & know that i live in florida i wanna show off my home town (BROOKLYN IN DA HOUSE!!!!!!) can anybody out there in cyberspace help me out?
'I left my heart.....in NEW YORK CITY......'
HOW 'BOUT THEM YANKEES??!!!!!!
Looking for an updated List of IRT Destination Sign Readings,,Circa 1997-1998
Thank you
Steve
Looking for all New Readings for the R-44 R68 Cars ,,circa 1998
Thank you
Steve
I am requeting assistance ,,from anyone who knows the PART Bus Routes ,in very detailed explanatory detail
Please get back to me ,at smokiecat@webtv.net
Being from cold spring, and now living in brooklyn I think maybe if you check www.pcnr.com they may have a schedule. If not, I'll Keep looking 4 you
The MIT Department of Urban Studies and Planning invites
you to an:
OPEN HOUSE
for prospective students of color
Monday, November 16, 1998 (7-9)pm
Double Tree Guest Suites NY
1568 Broadway, New York City
47th St. and 7th Avenue
Learn about Master & PhD degrees
Meet faculty, students, and alumni
Hear about financial aid
Get tips on applying
To RSVP or get more information
contact us at: duspmin@mit.edu
or (617) 253-9403
Visit our web page at http://web.mit.edu/dusp/www
What are the temperature and humidity aims of the NYC MTA, for regulating inside the subway car?
Please provide me with a list of temp. and relative humidity.
On all NYC Transit cars, the HVAC logic is designed to keep the in-car temp. between 60 and 71 degrees. At 59 degrees, the heat comes on and above 71 degrees, the #1 end AC comes on.The #2 end AC will cut in at 72-73 degrees. There is no provision for regulating humidity at a set level, however, there is overhead heat which operates during high cooling to reduce the moisture in the air.
Even a World's Fair R33 with just fans is better than the average underground platform on a hot humid summer day!
This post is perasonal opiniom and not that of MTA or NYCT.
From what I have read, the NYCT is concerned about hot stations. The new cars will be cooler running due to regenerative braking. Also, an air-conditioned platform, thanks to Grand Central Terminal, is coming to the Grand Central Subway Station.
From what I have read, TWU is also concerned about our well-being (Yes, I am a TWU member and Transit employee). This past summer I saw a petition drive to run the emergency fans at 168 on the #1 to cool the station.
If you are talking about cooling all underground stations not having ventilation chambers you are talking big bucks. I am not saying it would not be nice but if I had to choose between new cars, more cars, safer system or A/C in stations, I would choose the former and yes, I have workerd in booths with bad A/C. This spring overnight one booth was so hot I asked for, and received permission to remove my required sweater vest and the supervisor made an emergency call to A/C repair (and they usually dont make emergency calls). They fixed the A/C two hours later and I survived with just a "soaked uniform"( from the sweat). My compliments to that supervisor!(Who I will not name here.)
Again- the above post is personal opinion and not that of MTA, TWU, TWU Local 100 or the NYCT.
Sorry I didn't post this sooner like before November 1st, but I haven't been able to access the board in a few days:
------------------------------------------------------------------------ New CTA Fare Options Begin Nov. 1, 1998:
On November 1, 1998, November 15th, December 15th, and January 1, 1999, Transit Cards will become even easier to use.
------------------------------------------------------------------------•November 1, 1998: Transit Cards can be purchased from station vending machines. The minimum purchase amount for a new card will be $1.50 rather than $3. Also, every $10 added to a card's value will receive a $1 bonus. Add 11 dollars in value by spending 10!
------------------------------------------------------------------------•New Passes will be created, beginning on several dates below. All of these are active the first time you use them, for the number of days shown. They are sold on the Internet, and at neighborhood Currency Exchanges, Jewel, and Dominick's stores.
On Nov. 15, 1998 the $5.00 One-Day Fun Pass will be available.
On December 15, 1998 the 30-Day Pass will replace calendar month passes. These are $75 full-fare and $35 reduced fare.
On December 15, 1998 the $20 7-Day Pass will be available.
These passes cannot be shared, nor can value be added to them, because
they are unlimited use passes for a continuous number of days.
------------------------------------------------------------------------•January 1, 1999: Packs of Ten One-Ride Transit Cards will be sold where passes are sold, replacing tokens. CTA will continue to accept tokens until May 31, 1999.
Ten full fare cards worth $1.50 each will be sold for $15.00
Twenty reduced fare cards worth $0.75 each will be sold for $13.50
For more details, call 1-888-YOUR-CTA.
Your opion, BJ
Most of what the CTA is doing here makes perfect sense.
Giving out the Transit Card discount at $10 instead of $20 is a good idea, and the one-day fun pass is a great idea (but what's the difference between that and the already-existing one-day Visitor's Pass??)
What makes no sense to me is selling ten packs of Transit Cards, each with one ride on it. Isn't the whole point of a Transit Card that you can put as much or as little money on it as you want? It's a waste of plastic (and thus money) to sell ten one-ride cards instead of one card with ten rides on it. How can the same people come up with three or four good ideas and then one real doozie of a bad one?
John/BJ @ ORD, Re new fares at the windy city ....
I agree this doesn't seem to make much since ... 10 Fun Passes at 15,
that's 1.50 each for a round trip, why would anyone buy anything else?
Unless these are one-way cards ... do they want to get rid of the token THAT bad ?
I think the value card that you can keep filling up makes much more since. Unlim cards suit some folks just fine too. But why get rid of the token & find another reason that folks have to keep going back to the agent/ATM ? Unless the mfg gets some kind of commision based on the volume of sales via his machine. This be true I hope the suit on the top gets fired !
Disclaimer: I don't work in Chicago & am speaking only for myself.
Mr t__:^)
"10 Fun Passes at 15, that's 1.50 each for a round trip, why would anyone buy anything else?"
No, they are selling ten regular, value, Transit Cards for $15. Each card can still be recharged like the Transit Cards sold by the machines.
"... do they want to get rid of the token THAT bad?"
CTA has set a deadline in 1999 (they stated the date, I think it was May 31, but I'm not sure) for the token's elimination. The only way the ten-pack of single-ride cards makes sense is as an analogy to the token. Still, why not a single card with $15.00 value?
"But why get rid of the token & find another reason that folks have to keep going back to the agent/ATM ? Unless the mfg gets some kind of commision based on the volume of sales via his machine."
No, the ten-packs will not be sold in train stations or out of machines. They will be sold where tokens are sold now, at CTA headquarters, currency exchanges (ugh!), and Jewel/Osco and Dominick's (the big supermarket chains). The station agents don't sell anything, the station vending machines sell and recharge value Transit Cards only, and the airport stations have Visitor Card vending machines (and selected locations sell Visitor Cards over the counter).
I think the sale of transit cards and passes at off-station locations like supermarkets makes perfect sense. But Jewel/Osco and Dominick's can just as easily sell $15 prepackaged value Transit Cards as they can ten packs of $1.50 cards.
Windy City John, Thanks for the addl info.
I hope the suit there doesn't come to a meeting where the big suit here hears him brag about this or we'll get it too. Unfortunately I hear there's another software change comming for the fare collection system, maybe they already talked to each other :-(
Mr t__:^)
The One-Day Visitor's Pass has never existed. It's only an idea and apparently the idea's been changed to One-Day Fun Pass.
Disclaimer:I do not work at Happy Fun World or the NYC Touris Bureau
The One-Day Visitor's Pass has never existed. It's only an idea and apparently the idea's been changed to One-Day Fun Pass.
Disclaimer:I do not work at Happy Fun World or the NYC Tourist Bureau
Are they still using subway token coins? I wish to get some 4 or 5 coins but I cannot get them because I'm in Japan. Anyone can help me?
I hear they are made in Manchuria, Kindly send the Chinese there 8 American Dollars and a note that says "YOU QUIT THE SENKAKU ISLANDS"
A Patriotic Taiwanese/Chinese person
The TA in Brooklyn may have some, in addition to the current one at 1.50. Or contact you local bus company. There are a few who are willing to be bothered with such requests, AND guys like me even belong to the AVA, a token collector's assoc.
Contact me directly for more details.
Mr t__:^)
Hello there.
I live close to the Metrorail in D.C but I have a question about the Subway.
I just came back from seeing "Seige", and it looks like near the Brooklyn Bridge a subway train elvated but it seemed to be going very slow, Why?
thank you
d.suriano
That wasn't the Brooklyn Bridge - that was the Williamsburg Bridge, and that was an R42 train, probably a "J". They're limited to 15 MPH on that stretch of track, partly by antiquated signals and in response to a NASTY crash there on June 5, 1995 in which a motorman died.
Which Metro line do you live near? I'm a Metrophile as well as a NYC Subway fan - check out Metro Line-By-Line:
http://www.nycsubway.org/washdc
Wayne
I remember reading that those signals were geared more towards the acceleration and braking rates achieved by BMT standards. Sounds as if it's time for a signal upgrade, as well as a bridge rebuild.
I was wondering if there was anyone out there who has pictures of the Union Square side platforms that could be posted on this site...
With the Giuliani administration's paranoia
over security issues, it may be a long time before tours of those side platforms resume...
It sure would be great to have those pictures posted on the "Disused and Abandoned Stations" part of the webpage!
I'm not sure what's left of those platforms now ... Union Square has been undergoing renovaions for quote a while.
Back in the summer of 1997, Union Square was torn up and you could see the bare metal supporting the streets. You would have seen the IRT subway, too, but that was walled off with wood. What I was able to get on video was a good shot of some of the pillars and the "14 in Eagle" mosaic.
Gotta get me that "Snappy" thing ... :)
--Mark
The uptown side platform didn't appear to be included in the reconstruction of the station, except for the cutting of those peekaboo windows into the wall; I assume it's still intact. The floor of the new passage between the IRT fare control (at 14th and Fourth Avenue) and BMT fare control (at 15th and University Place) was built partly over the downtown side platfom. Looking into the work shed, you can see the original wall there has been cut into, leaving freestanding columns carrying the mosaic decoration and the 14-eagles (which are not on site at the moment, however--I hope they're being cleaned). From the current downtown platform the lower portion of the side platform is partly visible through a grill (though unlit).
Barry's original point is a good one, though--it would be nice to have photos of the original state of the platforms. I'd also be interested to see pictures of the original ornament at Bowling Green and Hoyt Street here.
The TA uses 100 pound rail. Why don't The TA use 120 or 150 pound rail for a better faster and smoother ride? I belive the rail joins won't fail as much, the road bed won't take as hard of a beating and the new light weight wheel trunk the R142/143 use won't fail like the R-46 first wheel trunk did in 1975. But what do I know, I'm just a common man riding this swaying train that weight in about 78,000 pounds that uses only 100 pound rail. Just a note the new Jersey City LVR are laying 150 pound rails, Newark TROLLEYS uses 120 pound rail and about every other subway uses a larger rail. 1+1=3 3=derailments
NYCT uses 100 pound ARA-B section rail. That's a very old
standard and I think NYCT is one of few customers that orders
it. To convert to another section would mean a lot of re-tooling
and inventory obsolescence.
Using a heavier rail might provide some small improvement in
resisting vertical deflection. At an average 10 ton/axle load
and a maximum speed of 45 MPH, anything heavier than 100 is
really over-engineering. Another issue to bear in mind is that
bigger rail is also taller. Add an inch of rail height and you
get into all sorts of clearance and alignment "issues".
Problems with the Rockwell R46 trucks were part manufacturing,
mostly poor track conditions. The rail section was not a factor.
It was the failure of NYCTA to do routine inspection and maintenance
during a "deferred maintenance" period of the 1970s. Little things
like rotten ties, broken joint bars or bolts, loose guard rails,
etc. contributed to battering the trucks and derailments, culminating
in over 500 "red tag" restrictions by the early 1980s.
Are you sure the new Jersey LRV project is using 150???
That's nuts!
150? They don't use that in Powder River! SIR is using 115, and I believe I've seen 3rd rail marked 150....
-Hank
Heavier rail is less likely to go out of alignment and would contribute to a smoother ride. Boston is now standardized on 115 instead of 85 as used previously. However, Boston's system is small compared to NYC, and the investment required to change the standard might be substantial.
I recall a few years that new rail was installed on the Brighton line which made the car doors higher than the platforms. The press ripped the TA, wondering how anyone could be so stupid as to buy rail that was the wrong height. If 125 vs. 100 lb rail was the thing that made the rails higher, I doubt we'll be seeing heavier rail anytime soon after that reaction.
So, that's what happened, huh? I think the TA's mistake was not taking the height differential into consideration when the rails were laid down. Of course, that's not the first time the TA pulled an oopsy concerning height. When the R-32s were delivered, they were a tad too tall for tunnel clearances at DeKalb. Apparently, no one thought that maybe, just maybe, the R-32s might sit a skosh higher because they were much lighter than their predecessors.
I will say this much: the express run on the Brighton line is feather-smooth from Prospect Park to Church Ave.
While I'm not exactly sure what type of rail is used on our light rail line in Denver, it's probably in the 115-pound range, since our LRVs reach speeds of 55 mph on the private ROW section. (It helps to have speedometers in plain sight inside the operator's cab.)
>>> Heavier rail is less likely to go out of alignment and would contribute to a smoother ride
There are 3 variables in track alignment: gage, cross-level,
and longitudinal level. All are dependent on the fastening
system (e.g. spikes vs pandrols) and the track support (e.g.
Type 1 ballast, Type 2 wood half ties in concrete, etc.) The
weight of the rail has very little effect on alignment.
Smoothness of ride is also a product of many factors. Weight
of rail is one of them. A heavier rail is stiffer and resists
vertical bending, especially at rail joints. That's important,
but there is such a thing as over-engineering. Rail size is
determined by the kind of traffic that passes over. Sure, you can
place the heaviest rails that will fit, but it costs money to
buy all that extra steel and to handle it.
TA uses two sizes,100 lbs rails underground and MOST of the rails on the outside
are 115 lbs. The 115 lbs rails are a few inches higher.
Yesterday I had the pleasure of the company of Mr.Simon Billis for a three hour and forty-five minute "mini-tour" of some of the IRT and BMT lines. Basically the trip went as follows: Queensboro Plaza (7) to Times Square to Union Square (6) to Broadway Junction and back (L) to Borough Hall (4) to 96th Street(2) and back to Penn Station (2). Simon got his wish for Redbirds (2,7) and I got my wish for a Slant R40 (L). He's going to spend two more days touring the system then he's back to England. Simon and I plan to take more tours of the system in the future.
The motorman of the "L" train out to Brooklyn gave us a thrill, whistling through the 14th Street Tunnel at a top speed of 50 MPH. #4399 was the operating unit. He played the GT signals like a Stradivarius before finally opening up at the all-greens. The motorman of the northbound #2 also gave us the rocket ride from Times Square to 72nd Street (we were held up there by some fool wandering around on the tracks). The operating unit there was #9124, a fine old Redbird.
We couldn't get to Astor Place due to a G.O. diverting the #6 to the express tracks (they were working on the wall at Union Square). Before we entered the infamous #1437 Switch, our #6 stopped with our car in the abandoned 18th St. station.
All in all, an extremely pleasant day was had by both of us.
Wayne
When I work the L, I don't take those timers fast like the motorman you had today. How do I know there is not a train ahead? How do I know the signal won't clear if there is a signal problem? If that timer doesn't clear and he "hits" the signal, technically that is a collision. If a motor instructor or superintendent is riding, he can take the motorman out of service for not having his train under control. Then he has to deal with the Jay St. bureaucrats. No thank you! And they are waiting for us motormen to screw up like a bunch of hungry sharks because they have to justify their jobs. Remember when Motorman Gibson ran a red signal on the Willy B? He paid the ultimate price. I'd rather keep my job than give out thrills!
Both Simon and I were watching those GT signals closely - we were both
amazed that he didn't "hit" one of them. I can't imagine what would have resulted if he DID - perhaps we would have come to a very unpleasant stop, and the passengers (including ourselves, no doubt, since we were standing) would have gone flying. I agree wholeheartedly with your conservative approach to GT signals - I used to watch them on the Queens Blvd. express between 63rd Drive and Woodhaven (inbound), between Elmhurst and Grand (outbound) - the motormen would always slow to about 25 or so well ahead. Still - what a rush!
Wayne
YEAH BUT THOSE GRADE TIMERS ARE A LOT FASTER ON THE QUEENS BLVD LINE THAN ON THE CANARSIE LINE.THATS WHY THE L IS SO SLOW.
The other day I saw a 6000 Orion at Amsterdam. I didn't have time to go in it to check it out but a dispatcher at 129 St told me that its a brand new Orion. Anyone have any info? I was under the impression that the next series of Orions were strictly CNG's for Jackie Gleason. This Orion also did not have chrome rims but were painted white, so maybe its a rebuild?
It's a new bus. I think there are 360 in this order. The CNG's for Jackie Gleason are to numbered in 700-8XX seroes.
My source (thanks Andy) says the VI has a lower floor than the V.
He also said they're comming next year & the number is more like 212 vs. 360, but the TA was trying to get some more 360 - 212 = 148 ?
So if you want to ride a NEW Orion you'll have to take LI Bus, Queens Surface, Triboro or Command ;-)
Mr t__:^)
Mr T.,
Yes, The Orion VI is a low floor bus (and Orion V Standard height floor). I didn't realize that the TA decided to purchase The Orion VI. I do know that they were purchasing the New Flyer D-40LF (CNG) buses for use at Jackie Gleason. The D-40LF (DD Series 50 Diesel) are also used by the Roosevelt Island Operating Corp. I never seen the Orion VI in operation, but I know that Toronto Transit Commission (TTC) uses them.
RE: NYCT bus fleet: I'm happy to see anything other than RTS arrive. It's not that I dislike the RTS (even though it's never been my favorite), but there are so many of them (over 3000). I guess it's good from a maintainence standpoint.
Actually, there are 350 buses in this order (6000-6349). They are diesel Orion Vs. The low-floor Orion VIs (6350-6359) are equipped with a hybrid diesel-electric propulsion system, in which electric motors are powered by a generator that in turn is powered by a diesel engine. The Gleason Depot order is for 190 New Flyer D40LFs, powered by Compressed Natural Gas. They're scheduled to start coming in by the spring of 1999.
David
David, Thanks for the detailed reply !
I don't claim to know a great deal about bus models and such, but working in a depot this past four years (though not directly related to bus maint.) I'm learning & am happy to share what I know & absorb from others who do. Our mutual friend upstairs says hello (understand you know two others here).
Mr t__:^)
Thurston et al:
I did some more checking: the MCI coaches cost $389,000 each, give or take a shekel.
David
P.S.: Say hi to our mutual friend upstairs.
Those wheels are aluminum, not chrome. I don't see why they would be painted white at all, because you don't need to paint them. Personally, I like the Alcoa wheels better than the white painted steel...more of a modern look, which the Orions need desperately.
-Hank
Re painting the alum wheels ... maybe it's related to ID who owns the wheel & tire. We used to paint them orange so Green or Triboro would give them back if the vendor screwed up.
Mr t__:^)
Did anyone catch The Learning Channel 3 hour broadcast Sunday night??
I was flipping the channels and caught a few pictures of the Subway inluding overhead shots of the motorman's cab as the train was being operated.
I thought NYCTA had strick guidlines on showing actual controls of a subway car. Many movies that have cab shots never show the true controls, how did TLC get the shots??
I taped the rebroadcast that started at 11pm and will be watching it as soon as I get home but in the mean time did anyone catch it??
Why do they have the strickt controls on the controls of the subway car?
Well I watched the tape yesterday. There is a short 15 minute segment of "MegaTech" about the NYC subway and how people run it. They show a platform conductor, a dispatcher, a tower with one of the "new"er switch machines (button throws, I wished they showed an old fashion switch machine). Couple of head end shots underground with voice over that the signals used in the subway are just like the ones used on the street. They showed the command center and a couple of those desk dispatchers talking on the phone and such. You can catch a couple words here and there "Okay Proceed on signal" type stuff.
They also had a few seconds (twice) of like over the head shots of a train operator operating the train which is the first I've seen.
There is a repeat of the three "Mega Tech" programs on The Learning Channel (TLC) Sunday, Nov. 15. starting at 3:00 pm EST. The episode, "Below New York", which Lou discussed, airs at 5:00pm ET.
(Below New York - The underworld of New York City, larger than the city above, is a critical factor in what makes this city tick. Learn what's there and what it takes to keep The Big Apple going.)
(Program two, "Subterranean Secrets", shows tonite; Program three, "Military Master Builders", airs on Wed nite, 11/11. -- All are repeated on Sunday, 11/15.)
Watched the video of 'Below New York' this afternoon. I have NEVER seen a factual show (as opposed to fact-based fiction or fiction) full of so much misinformation and mistakes. Subway 'Toll Booths', manually controlled signal system, using footage from the 70s and 80s to illustrate a recent water main break....
-Hank
Three more of the 16 very early RTS-02s are leaving our property this month, that leaves just six, they're being replaced by Orion CNGs. So if you want to ride/photo these coaches with the dog house on the back (A/C was an after thought back in 1979) better come to the streets of Queens soon.
Mr t__:^)
Which lines are they used on?
AC was not an add on but the AC did not work. The condensor was infront of the radiator and if it was warm enough to run the AC you could not run the AC without over heating the bus. Since the windows did not open the bus had to be pulled from service.
The dog house moved the condesor to the rear where it lives on all later RTS's.
The early RTS's made "New Looks" or Fishbowls as they were known look pretty good from the maintenance depertment.
AC was not an add on but the AC did not work. The condensor was infront of the radiator and if it was warm enough to run the AC you could not run the AC without over heating the bus. Since the windows did not open the bus had to be pulled from service.
The dog house moved the condensor to the rear where it lives on all later RTS's.
The early RTS's made "New Looks" or Fishbowls as they were known look pretty good from the maintenance depertment.
What lines are they used on, and what are the fleet numbers of the buses?
The six older RTS-02's are 177, 180, 181, 183, 184 & 189.
177 regularly make the East River Ferry run (490/491), but the other five fill in as required, we use they spareingly ... you might see them on the Q25, Q65, Q66 or Q101.
So if you see a bus with a orange strip & 'Queens Surface Corp", then look for one of these numbers.
If you need more detail click on my name above & send a private message.
Mr t__:^)
A TA bus driver had explained to me that the brand new coach buses that are now on city streets cost have a price tag at close to about half a million dollars. For anyone who has not seem them as yet, you can find them on the X1 and X10 express bus routes which runs up 6th Ave and 5th Ave/Broadway in Manhattan. These buses are (to my knowledge) on Staten Island express bus routes only. All I can say about this is there must've been some surplus for the MTA if it's true that the buses carry that price tag.
-GarfieldA
They may cost close to $500,000 each (as opposed to an RTS, which costs about $285,000), but it should be remembered that a) they seat 57, as opposed to 39 on an RTS express, and b) used over-the-road coaches, especially ones that are used in the kind of service NYCT's are [one or two relatively short round-trips a day, weekdays only for the most part], have a substantial resale value, so NYCT can expect to get some money back when it's time to retire these buses (yes, I know there's no restroom, but that's easy enough to retrofit).
The TA won't sell them in 25 years, when they will finally die completely. I would think that previous experience has shown that municipal authorities will use an item until it will no longer function, like the 20 year old New Looks tthat were finally retired in 1993.
The cost of the bus also figures in several years worth of maintainence provided by MCI. TA mechanics don't do so much as change the tires on those behemoths. The TA got more bus for the money, figureing they'll carry more passengers and operate at least 5 years beyond the fleet average. So I expect to be riding that MTA MCI in 2020.
-Hank
Just saw in USA Today that the citizens put the halt to any expansion of the Los Angeles subwau system . North Hollywood will be the last stop! They would rather have light rail! Cheaper to build and run.
What does everybody think?
Chuck Greene
Just saw in USA Today that the citizens put the halt to any expansion of the Los Angeles subwau system . North Hollywood will be the last stop! They would rather have light rail! Cheaper to build and run.
What does everybody think? please reply
Chuck Greene
One more reason not to live in LA....
I just saw two commercials today with rapid transit cars in them. It's the first I've seen each. One is an ad for "Atlantis" in the Bahamas, with PATH cars featured in a strange way (you need to see it to appreciate it). The other is part of SEPTA's blitz to win back riders, and it features M-4's at the end of the piece, touting the "new El cars."
I'm a PATH rider and general subway buff. I've seen the Atlantis/PATH commercial, though with the sound off.
My first impression was that they wanted to contrast the day-to-day humdrum commuting experience with the escape that Atlantis offers.
Not terribly effective for me personally, of course, since crawling around PATH and NYC Subway trains and facilities IS one of my favorite escapes..
"My first impression was that they wanted to contrast the day-to-day humdrum commuting experience with the escape that Atlantis offers."
Which reminds me of the absolutelty asinine commercials for the Molds-mobile Alero. The slogan: "Stop commuting, start driving!" (With the letters, oddly enough, in colored circles similar to those used by NYCTA to indicate subway lines.) The commercial shows people stuck in heavy traffic while the announcer intones dully "Stop commuting," and a driver speeding on an deserted winding road while the announcer excitedly blurts "Start driving!"
DUH!! Like a million other car commercials, the imagery is that **somehow** if you buy the car in question you will not be stuck in rush-hour traffic but will be able every day to slalom to and from work at 75 mph on your own private winding mountain road. This image, especially when compared to the "humdrum" experience of riding transit, is why many people don't ride transit. People know in their conscious brains that the reality is the traffic jam, but in their subconscious fantasy, they are on that mountain road and are damn well not going to stuff themselves on a subway instead.
Better than the buick ones which show a bunch of people cramming into a old, steam powered train, all being squished on each other, then this person stretched out in a buick driving around like it's a nice day and she's out for a drive.
Funny, I've never found driving into the city to be a pleasent experience, and this is comming from a Harley owner who curses when he misses a bad weekend of riding. I hate riding through NYC because of the potholes, the cabbies, and the damm traffic moves so slow, I'm always worried I'm gonna overheat, and on hot days believe me, it ain't fun sitting with an 883 CC engine between youre legs throwing off tons of heat (but when you get to the bridges and onto the LIE.....)
Anyway, it's interesting that the ad for the Intrigue actually features an Amtrak train in it. Hell, at first, I thought it WAS an Amtrak ad because they show the train cooking along and everything, ands they almost never show the car...
Go figure. Maybe GM still thinks that railroads are their mortal enemy or something (which is funny given that GM is the #2 locomotive maker in the world...)
Last week, the TA installed 20 or so of those light bulb strips that look like surge protectors with long extension cords all over The Dekalb (D)(Q)(N)(R) Station. From The Entrance all the way to the end of the platform. On the celings and on the walls. I normally see these lights in tunnels to give workers more light while construction is going on. Dekalb had enough light without them, so does anyone know if Dekalb is scheduled to get an overhaul soon?
There is a sign at the end of one of the plaforms stating that the TA will be doing work on The Nassau Line and they are sorry for the inconvinece, however it appears to have been posted in the early 80's.
This month's edition of Hemisphere magazine, the in-flight mag of United Airlines, has an article by Stan Fischler (whom I had the pleasure of interviewing on WCBS last year). The article is a broad overview of subway systems worldwide, and he praises many of them. But it was heartening to see that he still ranks ours in NYC as "#1."
By the way, I'm in Lawrence, Kansas right now... and there sure isn't any "electric therapy" here! But I'll be at my weather post in NYC this weekend. Anyone want to go in search of LIRR bi-levels Saturday afternoon? E-mail me...
Damm...I'm stuck in CT until Thanksgiving - you gonna be in NY then?
The real question is whether the IRT beats the BMT and IND...:)
1 - What was the result or the findings from the multi-weekend inspections of the Manhattan Bridge, some time ago, that required train service be suspended?
2 - There have been some postings not long ago about moving the northside (6th Ave.) track services (B,D,Q) over to the southside (Broadway) tracks, in a few years, so the northside track area can be repaired. Does that mean that the bridge peoople know finally how to solve the problem(s) that have kept the southside tracks unused for a decade or more?
Mike Rothenberg
Answer to #2.
The plan is to fix the south side tracks by 2001, shift the trains to the south side, then fix the north side tracks by 2003. I rode over the bridge today. The track-bed (stringers, track, 3rd rail) are being replaced. It appears that new track is now in place from the Manhattan side to the Brooklyn Tower, with additional rail sections on the site ready to be placed. They may finish early.
The next question is, then, for how long? The problem is that the heavy trains cause the bridge to shift, and this causes the metal to crack. It is also rusting, and is covered with peeling lead paint (signs in the work area say "Lead Paint: Poison -- do not eat or smoke." The engineers claim that the bridge is being stiffened, and this fix should last for 30 years (starting from several years ago) -- with ongoing maintenance and reconstruction. That's what they told me in the kickoff meeting on the new East River Alternatives study. But the fixes have failed to stop the cracking before.
That's why I believe the bridge must be replaced, for subways and perhaps for trucks as well (a la the Brooklyn Bridge), in the next couple of decades. Spending a billion dollars to buy a few years was a mistake, but it shouldn't be compounded by failing to implement a permanent solution. To me the Manhattan Bride is like a sword hanging over the borough.
It was a bad idea to put the subway tracks on the outside portions in the first place.
That said, I'm curious as to what was accomplished when the north side tracks were redone in 1985-88. Are they going to have to be re-reworked? I have this sickening feeling that subway trains will continue to be shifted back and forth, back and forth between both sets of tracks while the bridge remains in a state of perpetual repairs being done, and that we may never see both sets of tracks open at the same time ever again.
(Only one side open at a time, indefinately). I believe that's the optimistic scenario.
I thought that the multiweekend closings were used to build pedestrian access to cross the bridge.
Unless I am missing something--the ped access is on the side with the **closed** tracks, not the 6th ave tracks. The walkway on the 6th ave side is an emergency walkway for access by trackworkers/emergency personnel only.
Does the MTA have any plans to deal with the "Scratch-Itti", or all of the scratched in Grafitti in it's cars? It is ashame to see these cars abused like this so often. Will the R-142's be "scratch" Resistant?
I think the only thing that can be done to defeat the scratching is to give people permission to shoot the 'artists' on sight. But that will never happen. And people thought graffitti was bad....
-Hank
I really dont know which looks worse. At night when Im going home I see the number one train going between 133st to 120st on Bway, right by my job at Manhattanville depot. When a train passes by and you see the damage done by the mutant warriors who destroy our trains this way it appears that we are living in the set of the Road Warrior or Escape from New York. Im shocked to see some buses at Amsterdam which were former Walnut buses. You literally can't see out the windows with some of the damage being three or four feet high. I've said it before that graffiti was bad and unsightly but scratchitti is more sinister and violent in nature.
I just want to know how it gets on the inside of the driver's window.
-HAnk
What are you insinuatating Sir?
Not only has it epanded to the Subways, Busses, and Taxis, Now Metro-North and The New York Amtrak Locals Are Having Huge Problems With It. Metro North Just got over their last problem of people stealing the "Watch The Gap" stickers by putting them in between double-paned glass. Now the scratching is showing up all over the bathrooms, windows, and glass waiting booths at the stations.
Is there any material that is scrach free that could be used?
Not only has it expanded to the Subways, Busses, and Taxis, Now Metro-North and The New York Amtrak Locals Are Having Huge Problems With It. Metro North Just got over their last problem of people stealing the "Watch The Gap" stickers by putting them in between double-paned glass. Now the scratching is showing up all over the bathrooms, windows, and glass waiting booths at the stations.
Is there any material that is scrach free that could be used?
That the drivers and/or mechanics abuse the vehicles. I've seen buses with graffitti over the drivers seat; popular for buses out of Yukon is 'Dave Sucks (xxxx)' More common is 'Slow Bus' or 'S**t bus' or destination codes for the sign. And how can they scratch up the window under/over the side sign? Can't the driver SEE?
-Hank
While operators do write messages to each other as you stated, an unofficial way to describe defects of a bus, this is not unique to us only. This practice goes back to the Brooklyn streetcar days. And yes some idiots do like to scratch the black around the side destination sign. However I have not ever seen scratchiti in the operators compartment side window as we described happens in the back or on subway doors. And if a operator were to do this he truly is a mutant warrior! Believe it or not when an operator is being trained he is taught to read what it says by the destination code box because it will describe problems with the bus. I've seen similiar messages in subway operator cabs and even on route destination selectors in tunnels! I know many of you dislike transit workers but we are people too!
No excuse for the graffitti. I always thought that 'problems with a bus' were for filing on the defect sheet, isn't that what it's provided for? (I realize this does not stay with the bus) But when the media attacks the condition of the transit system, they blame all the vandalism on 'youth' I can assuredly say, it's not all 'youth', because I work in a law firm, and there's graffitti all over the bathroom walls. The elevators are scratched up. You'd figure you only had adults in the building, huh?
-Hank
The transit industry as with many other blue collar jobs does attract unruly types. We are not bad guys however. Sure a defect card is supposed to be used for defects, but once a defect card is in the hands of the mechanics and whoever they go to after that, just try to get your hands on them despite the fact that CDL law says we as operators have a right to see them for the past three days. I mean it was a childish thing for the train operator who let you operate his train and risk his job, but would a college educated lawyer let you do that. No, only a blue collar type of transit worker would. BTW, does you building get delivery's by messengers? Maybe these are the same culprits who do the trains!
I would Just like you to know that I think MTA employees are some of the most abused people in the NYC infrastructure. Having a father who went from Norfolk So., to the now Defucnt SEMPTA, then MTA MNCRR, I have never seen one group of people recieve more abuse and poor treatment than MTA employees. Every time I see someone jam their foot in a closing subway door and then curse at the conductor when he wont open it, I think to myself that the motorman should just take off with the jerk in the door, and remove the world of one more problem. It is amazing that people try so hard to find things wrong with a system (i.e. yesterdays Daily News Column) who's only purpose is to serve the people of NYC for $1.50 all day, 24/7. I enjoy having discussions with the clerks, motormen, and conductors, for I find them to be some of the nicest people in NYC.
First - let me state that I have no hatred or vendetta again the MTA/NYCT or it's employees, but I have seen the type of abuse to buses that you mentioned. I haven't noticed any scratchiti on drivers' windows, but I have seen many buses with the type of remarks (and destination sign codes) written in the front of the bus. I haven't seen it lately, but during my school years I can remember much of it. One example of it were the 1981 GMC RTS that were equipped with the relatively underpowered Detroit Diesel 6V-71 engine. Of this group a few MABSTOA buses (2281-2300) at Kingsbridge (and 1298-1317 SI x-buses) had the more powerful DD 6v-92TA engine - All of these buses had the word "TURBO" written next to the fleet number at the front of the bus. This was back in the 1980's on MABSTOA buses at KB,COL,WF,146 and AMS depots, but thankfully it seems to be a thing of the past now. Hopefully, it will go away on Staten Island buses too.
I agree with you Wayne. What I am refering to is little remarks written under the destination code box. While improper its the unofficial way we tell each other whats wrong with the bus. POS, slider, fast, slow, roach coach, etc are all code words we understand.
Defacing property as you mentioned, by the fleet number, I do not appreciate. For example in the summer I had a really bad, slow 3000. Next to the number a employee wrote S#$%box in large magic marker letters. This is very embarrasing as a employee because it doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out who did this. Its a bad reflection upon me. The damage inflicted by the side destination sign as Hank described is another one. But I NEVER have seen scrachiti as described in the first thread in the drivers compartment window. And this was my only contention to begin with. If you really want to see some nasty stuff go to the restrooms in the depot!
Yeah, one other thing to add along those lines...'creative' editing of the 'please do not talk to driver....' sticker
-Hank
Or how about one on the train operators cab door that says "Please to do talk to train operator while train is in motion!"
You still haven't addressed the scatchiti in the drivers compartment window Hank!
The vandals break into the cabs all the time. It's quite easy. We have cheesy locks & cheesy cab doors. They can be pushed open in an instant. The R46 has a a very small latch which can't hold the door closed. One strong pull opens it. They also scratch the motormans windshield on the outside, while operating cars are buried within the consist by standing & scratching between cars.
Yeah, I've seen this. I hope one of the dirtbags falls gets diced by the train.....
But as for the scratchittl on the driver's side bus window, _I_ don't have to address it, the TA does. I say what I've seen, but since I don't work for any agency that can do anything about it....
-Hank
You should address it because you have made a serious allegation. This thread started about the topic of scrathiti in the subways and buses. Then you make a allegation that mechanics and bus operators are doing it in the b/o compartment. Upon further reading of your posts you gripe about GRAFFITI in the B/O compartment and then scratching on the side dest. sign and lastly cutting up the do not talk to operator sign. IF YOU MAKE A SERIOUS ALLEGATION AS YOU DID PLEASE DONT WATER DOWN THE ISSUE, STICK TO YOUR GUNS!!!
I am sticking to my guns! While the scratchitti on the b/o's window isn't widespread, the rest of what I've mentioned IS. And it's all along the same lines as well, employee abuse of the equipment. While employees may NOT be sctaching up the side destination sign, it is certainly close enough to the driver that he/she should be able to stop it remove the offender. If he doesn't feel the risk is worth it to remove the offender, then call a cop.
But damage to the sign door over the driver, farebox, and stairwell is impossible for a vandal to have done.
-Hank
Anyone can walk into a depot and do damage if no one is looking, just like vandals can hit subway cars laid up in a yard or underground facility.The "E"line lay-ups get hit by vandals with grafitti sometimes(D4 TRACK KEW GARDEN TRAINS),in addition to the"R line lay-ups between 53st and 45st in Brooklyn.
Then security is too lax. At Yukon Depot, near my home, If I'm standing by the depot for more than 5 minutes, I get asked what I'm doing. Yukon is now ivercrowded, and they're parking buses in the O/S yard and along both sides of the street adjacent to the depot. They have a guy in a depot truck driving up and down the street, with his strobes ablaze, watching the buses.. Oddly, they keep the new MCIs outside, instead of putting them in and parking the older RTS out there...
-Hank
Right now, the bus dept. is a victim of its own success. Edgewater depot is condemned. All divisions need another depot. ENY parks buses under Broadway on the street during midnite hours. Yet, I'm sure if the TA comes up with a place to build a new depot in Staten Island or anywhere else, the NIMBY's will be out in force.
I WANT MY COLISEUM DEPOT BACK.
Edgewater was condemned because they mangeed to put fish in fishbowls :)
Yukon opened just before this had happened. There's still a storage yard used for derelicts at Edgewater, but the city already HAS a site for a third depot on the island, which has been called for (in addition to relocating the 120 and 123pcts, and an additional engine company) for years. However, the city sees development $$$, and the site for the third depot (in a manufacturing zoned area with little development) for a retail complex and school, a project which itself has been stalled several times. I'd suggest the homeport, but the existing buildings are all wrong for it. Castleton needs to be replaced as well, since the majority of its buses are stored in a fenced yard adjacent to the depot.
-Hank
Why not rebuild edgewater? if its a dock like i hear it was than tear the existing down and install a new concrete pier in its place, than you have a useable edgewater without fishy fishbowls.
PS. what happend to thoes fishbowls? are they still down there?
To the best of my knowledge, they were lifted out, dried out, and put back in service. I can't see how being immersed in water could seriously damage a vehicle beyond ruining the upholstry. Everything else can be dried out over a period of time. Worst case, they needed new engines and brakes. A through inspection would probably clear up potential problems.
All the piers and associated buildings that were Edgewater Depot have been demolished. Additionally, the depot itself was a political sweetheart deal involving former SI Boro President Gaeta. The land is no longer city owned, to the best of my knowledge.
-Hank
I noticed something odd while looking at a Queens bus map. The Q22A bus, operated by Green Bus Lines, runs a mile or thereabouts from the Far Rockaway A train station to the Bayswater section of Far Rockaway. What's strange is that it makes only *one* trip a day, weeksdays only, leaving the station at 7:40 am and returning sometime after 2 pm (presumably the equipment is used on another run between those times). My initial thought was that the Q22A is a school run. But then I noticed that the service guide on the back of the map specifically mentions other school runs, but says nothing about the Q22A. What's up?
Maybe it is an Employee run?
There used to be an express bus on Staten Island's north shore that when to Brooklyn (only express bus to do that) Jay Street. Funny Jay street where the TA is??
It wasn't an 'employee special' They had one AM trip in and one PM trip out (x8) It was also the first TA express route (as R8x)
Service was ended about 1990, due to lack of ridership. After Metrotech opened, it was attempted again, with a private company as the operator; it too failed for lack of ridership.
-Hank
I would still think of it as an employee special because of the one run to and from Jay Street. If it had run on the south shore I would have taken it since I was working at 110 Livinston St at the time. To much of a trip up north and the extra fare to boot.
We know the original Contract 1 and Contract 2 subways were built with tight dimensions, and cannot accomodate B division cars. We know the Lexington Ave line north of Grand Central was built to larger dimensions, as was the Astoria line, since the platforms were shaved down and it was converted to BRT service. But do we know if the Dual Contracts specified the same tunnel specifications for both the BMT and the IRT? If the platforms were shaved back, could B divison trains run on the Pelham line and the Jerome Avenue Line (even the tunnel portions)?
Under the Sidewalks of NY, the only subway book I have read, is unclear on this point, which relates to 1960s era plans for the extension of the 2nd Avenue Subway to the Bronx.
BTW, have any of you transit buffs ever actually read the Dual Contracts? I was over at the Science, Business and Industry Library today, and just for the heck of it I searched on the on-line catalog. They have a copy, but you have to ask for it a few days ahead of time and come back to get it. I wonder if anyone ever went through the trouble.
Larry, howsabout scanning & posting--its a public doc--no copyright.
(Scanning in Dual Contracts)
Don't have a scanner & don't know how. If anyone else could do it, I could tell them where to get it.
Unfortunately I don't think the SIBL is a lending library.
You'd have to do the scanning there. In these days of small scanners and laptops that's not as hard as it sounds but it's a lot of work..
-dave
> I was over at the Science, Business and Industry Library today
Where is this library located?
--Mark
In the old B.Altman department store. 34th bet. 5th and Madison, I believe. See www.nypl.org
-Dave
I had asked someone at the ERA if B div. cars could run from the Concourse Yard down the center track of Jerome Av to just before Burnside, and he said that "through-spans" and signals would block it.
They are placed closer to the tracks, which are closer together on the A div. On places like the Williamsburg Br. have the IRT like widths, the signal is very short so the car body clears it, or it is above.
(Are there through spans (the low steel walls that come up spanning overpasses) on the els? Aren't they only on embankments?)
I had heard that some train of R-12's with R-10's on the ends went up the ramp, and was luckily stopped by a tower operator. I've heard different stories as to how far it had gone.
I also heard that some test was done with an R-16 on the center track of the Pelham line in 1983. I don't know how they got it up there, but it was when they were talking about converting it to B div with the 2nd Av line connection. For some reason, It couldn't clear. Does anyone else know about any of this?
[I also heard that some test was done with an R-16 on the center track of the Pelham line in 1983. I don't know how they got it up there, but it was when they were talking about converting it to B div with the 2nd Av line connection. For some reason, It couldn't clear. Does anyone else know about any of this?]
Unlikely. The decision to stop construction on the Second Avenue Subway was made in late 1974, and the contractors had all gone home by the end of 1980 after completing the three sections we've all been talking about (E. 110th-E. 120th Streets, E. 99th-E. 106th Streets, and under the Manhattan Bridge). If an R-16 WAS on the Pelham Line in 1983, it probably wasn't to test Second Avenue/Pelham clearances (although connection to the Pelham Line was in the 1968 plan). Besides: How could it get there? While the Pelham Line, including the subway portion, was built to Triborough Subway specifications, the platforms extend too far into the trackways in order to accommodate the narrow IRT stock, to allow BMT/IND stock to pass through. The same goes for the rest of the IRT: narrow tunnels and/or wide tunnels with platforms extending into the trackways.
David
Are you certain the Pelham Line was built to Triborough Spec? Where did you get your information? Which other IRT lines, other than the Pelham and the Lexigton, are built to Triborough Spec? Just curious. You never know what might happen in the next 30 years.
I'm pretty sure the Pelham Line was built to Triborough specifications, though I'm working from memory here and can't remember the source. I believe the newer parts of the IRT "H" system (Lex above Grand Central, 7th Avenue below Times Square) were built that way, as was the Pelham.
I looked something up (for a change). Pages 49-51 of "Under the Sidewalks of New York" (newer edition) describe the Triborough System. The Lexington Avenue, Pelham, and Jerome Avenue Lines were part of the system; apparently, the Seventh Avenue Line was not.
David
Since you've been so kind as to answer my question, perhaps I should let you know my interest. The MTA has an (unfunded of course) plan to build the 2nd Ave subway from 63rd to a tranfer to the Lex at 125th. It's been criticized, by the RPA amoung others, for just helping a few rich people on the Upper East Side. It would also require tearing up 2nd Ave.
If B division trains can run on the Pelham Line, I'd suggest running the 2nd Ave in a deep tunnel with no stations, except the two planned for in the already-built sections, then into the tunnel and up the Pelham Line. That would make every train from the Bronx an express. Meanwhile, you'd build a turnaround for the Lex Local at 125th -- Manhattanites would have the 6 all to themselves, so it should be able to accomodate the traffic on the Upper East Side.
It isn't going to happen anyway, but it's nice to think about.
Had the 2nd Ave. line been built as originally planned, the Pelham and possibly either the Woodlawn or White Plains Rd. lines would have had their platforms shaved back a la the Astoria line to accommodate 10-foot wide cars.
The upper Lexington Ave. line north of Grand Central was built to Dual Contract a/k/a Triborough specifications, as was, I believe, the lower 7th Ave. line south of Times Square. The extensions past Atlantic Ave. may have also been built with roomier tunnels, but I'm not sure. While riding on the IRT last month, mostly on Redbirds, I looked carefully at the distance between the rails and tunnel walls, and there seemed to be more space along the upper Lex and lower 7th Ave. tunnels.
I heard that story about the R-12s and R-10s, too, except in the version I heard, the R-10s raised quite a racket with the platform edges. Oops! Now, if there had been BMT standards involved, we probably would have read about how they tore up a platform and escaped with nary a scratch.
So then they must have gone through Burnside, then, or down the local track.
Did you read in USA today about the voters shooting down any
further expansion of the heavy rail system past North Hollywood?
They like light rail better! Those Califorimons!
Chuck Greene
After living in a suburb of Los Angeles for almost 10 years I can say that I would agree to a halt of the "red line" subway construction. I have ridden this subway in the past and it is nice and speedy. The problem is the earthquakes. California has too many of them. In a more earthquake-stable place, like New York City it is perfect to run underground.
Another aspect is money... I recently read that the LACMTA (the transit agency that operates most of the busses and the subway in L.A. doesn't even have enough buses to run a daily schedule... Some of the buses it does have are over 18 years old! They spend more time broken down than in service. When they were asked to buy new busses, they said that they don't have the money, yet they spend like mad on a subway system that isn't even 20 miles long...
Remeber that the one thing that kept SF and the East Bay connected after their last major earthquake was BART. It ran 24 hours a day to make up for the loss of the Bay Bridge. In that case the subway survived while the roads failed.
After LA's worst earthquake, didn't CalTrain keep some commuters in the northern suburbs connected while portions of I-5 were knocked out?
I just don't think the earthquake logic holds up. Why build anything in LA since it could ultimately kill you in an earthquake. In the mean time the population of LA dies a slower death from the chronic pollution.
The financial reasons are more defendable.
Re: Earthquakes & no money at LA.
I would have made about the same comments as Francis did here, but I would like to pursue the "earthquake" issue a little further. My first reaction is that Els are more prone to earthquake dammage then subways, but if they're both vulnerable to this ... then you're left with rapid transit at street level. So where can you do this close in to LA. Close a street to cars & give to light/heavy rail ? Doesn't seem like the suits at LA MTA thought this out very far. Maybe, like the ostrich, they think by burying their head in the sand the problem will go away ... hay, maybe everyone will move back to New York.
Re: Old buses, LA doesn't have the corner on that one either. At my depot we have a few RTSs from 1979, that's 19 years. Fortunatly replacements are on the way.
Mr t__:^)
I think they figured in earthquakes in the design. The REAL problem out there is the way the construction was mismangaed for so long. To my understanding they are nearly $1B over budget, and 10 years behind schedule. Why did they EVER get rid of the Red Car? Only toon could come up with that looney freeway idea! :)
-Hank
"Did you read in USA today about the voters shooting down any further expansion of the heavy rail system past North Hollywood? They like light rail better! Those Califorimons!"
Considering the California car culture, and the usual vocal-minority opposition to rail plans, the fact that they want light rail is a damned sight better than nothing! They could be proposing "busways" (ugh!) or HOV lanes (double ugh!), as the anti-rail types often do in order to kill off rail plans (and then once the rail proposal is dead, they have no intention of putting in busways, HOV lanes, or anything else other than more roads).
On the other hand, continuing the line as light rail when it was started as heavy rail means people will have to change trains at some point. In the face of automobiles, a rail system in LA has to be convenient above all else, and the lack of a one-seat ride may turn away some riders. That may end up being worse money-wise than just completing the Red Line in the heavy-rail mode.
There's a bunch of coverage of the vote on the LA Times site (latimes.com). From what I can glean, the proposition specifically prohibits spending on subways--i.e., trains underground--without making the distinction between light and heavy rail; if the Valley extension was planned to run on surface ROW after North Hollywood, it could still go forward as a one-seat ride. (Conversely, if the light-rail Green Line is extended to LAX, it won't be able to go underground.) The East LA and Mid-City extensions are definitely tabled, however.
The image of the Red Line sinkhole in Hollywood pretty accurately conveys the financial mismanagement of the LA MTA since the project began, and the vote reflects the county-wide exasperation with the agency more than it does a preference for cute trolleys over big heavy trains. Nevertheless, it's hard to argue against halting the line at North Hollywood to see how much of a success it proves to be before expanding it further, and making the stabilization of the bus system the priority in the interim.
The LA subway program was halted because costs escaleted to $200 million per mile, including costly stations.
I'm looking at the literature for the East River Alternative Study, which arrived today. In its East River Crossing Study, the MTA estimated the cost of a single, 1/2 mile connection from the DeKalb Ave tracks to the Rugters Tunnel to be $700 million dollars -- ie. seven times the cost per mile that lead to the shutdown in L.A.
Therefore, neither the MTA nor the City will fund any replacement for the bridge, despite ongoing (report through 1998) new problems with cracking and corrosion. Its just patch and hope, indefinately.
This demonstrates the damage absurdly inflated construction costs have done to the city's future. The question -- why? I can only conclude that what I read about construction in "Underboss" by Sammy the Bull Gravano is the reason, that construction is a rigged racket in which the hoods got greedy and are killing the golden goose.
Or maybe it's the strength of the unions and high cost of labor.
I recommend scrapping the bridge and just using a ferry to cross the river.
Or maybe it's the strength of the unions and high cost of labor.
I recommend scrapping the bridge and just using a ferry to cross the river. It's the cheapest way and rather than having good service, the MTA needs to make money. Government must be run like a business.
The bridges are literally falling apart! Its a disaster waiting to happen. Both the Willy B and the Manhattan were neglected too much. Whats gonna happen when a rush hour D train comes falling down from the manhattan bridge into the east river. I think of that ever time i ride the J train over the bridge.
I think they caught up with the damage to the Willy B in time to do something about it, which they have been and are in the process of doing. Don't forget, the design of the Manhattan Bridge complicates the engineering of repairs. I wonder how the bridge would fair, structure-wise, if the lower roadway were removed? It is essentially two seperate bridges with the lower roadway joining them.
-Hank
[I recommend scrapping the bridge and just using a ferry to cross the river. It's the cheapest way and rather than having good service, the MTA needs to make money. Government must be run like a business].
And all the TA riders from Brooklyn to Manhattan have their commute times lengthened by at least 1/2 hour. How much do you think new facilities on both sides of the river for connection to the ferry would cost? Do you use the subway at all to travel from Brooklyn to Manhattan?
I'd say that the citizens in Brooklyn are lucky you're not making the decisions.
By the way, the MTA, nor any other operating authority "makes money" on their services. Do you propose to scrap these systems?
[And all the TA riders from Brooklyn to Manhattan have their commute times lengthened by at least 1/2 hour.]
If that's what it takes to get this system to make money, then that's what needs to be done.
[How much do you think new facilities on both sides of the river for connection to the ferry would cost?]
I reckon it's a lot less than rebuilding the Manhattan Brigde or building a new tunnel under the river. I suppose we could scap the ferry idea and just get rid of the East River crossing at that location. There's a dozen other ways to cross the river.
[By the way, the MTA, nor any other operating authority "makes money" on their services. Do you propose to scrap these
systems? ]
The entire systems don't need to be scrapped, they need to be streamlined. If Singapore's subway system can be profitable, so can New York's.
Anything that is new, or not prone to vandalism, will cost less to maintain than anything that does not have those benefits.
If the unions are strong, their strength must be used for some purpose other than rising incomes. The NYC average construction worker earned more per year in 1963 than in 1989, or 1994, when adjusted for inflation. And there are one hell of a lot fewer. Someone told me that a union carpenter's benefits come to $60 per hour (including unemployment). It seems that hourly costs are so high, work is sporadic and scarce. But because work is sporadic and scarce, workers think they have to get it while they can. A vicious circle, but it can't explain $700 million.
Josh writes, "I recommend scrapping the bridge and just using a ferry to cross the river. It's the cheapest way and rather than
having good service, the MTA needs to make money. Government must be run like a business."
Government is not a business--why should it be run as one?
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
[Government is not a business--why should it be run as one? ]
New York City's government is not sustainable at this level. If the government were run like a business, the citizens wouldn't have to worry about higher taxes. The city's income would be garnered from its money-making ventures such as an efficiently run subway system.
If you mean that government should be run more efficiently, no doubt. But if you mean that government must turn a profit, that is utterly preposterous! Not only are there essential government services which could not earn a profit because there's no way to pin down people who use the service in order to charge them -- streetlights, street sweeping, traffic signals, parks, etc. -- there are some which the public, for good reason, doesn't WANT to be seeking a profit.
Imagine if the police department had to clear a profit. Murders would be ignored for the sake of issuing tickets (there's no profit in investigating a homicide), and tickets would probably be issued to many innocent people.
Imagine if the courts had to turn a profit, and judges were paid based on the amount of fines they assessed (as justices of the peace used to be). Not-guilty decisions by judges would become as rare as a snowflake in July in the Bahamas.
Imagine if the fire department or the EMS had to be profitable. "Pay now or we won't take you to the hospital!" "$500 in cash before we even hook a hose to a hydrant!"
Re: Govenment run as a profit ... BUT some groups within govenment already are run that way, e.g. the TA's Central Elect. Shop is a "Profit Center", i.e. they charge their "customers" for the service they provide. Within the TA it's just Monopoly money being passed around (I charge you to fix the Turnstile, you charge me to use the Computer system to test that the Turstile works, etc.) When they charge folks like my company, then they're adding money. So, if they can get enough outside customers (not just this one shop, why not take over the "Sunnyside Yard" and fix Amtrak coaches for a fee, etc, etc.) & they bump up the fare, they come closer & closer to paying for operations from income.
Granted, this system wouldn't work in many of the examples that our Windy City friend mentioned, but it does have some merit, just as the possibility of government getting out of the operation business & letting private industry run it (at a profit) for them.
Mr t__:^)
The NY subway actually does come close to making a profit, if only operational expenses are considered. I've no doubt that with a little tweaking it could be made profitable. Of course, capital expenditures are a different matter.
The 'profit' idea makes me think of the reason you can't charter a TA bus: Unfair Advantage. The bus was purchased with public money, and therefore using that bus to make money is the gov't competing with private business.
-Hank
Re: Charter a bus ... I think there unwillness has more to do with lack of interest. Which depot, which bus, which driver, would it be senior guys at OT or guys/gals on "the board", i.e. standbys waiting to fill in should someone call in sick that day. ????
At my depot we OWN a few buses & have no problem chartering them out.
It's not something we make a lot of noise (adv) about, so we don't do it a lot.
Mr t__:^)
I'm sure the subway could make a profit on an "auto equivalent basis." That is, with the right of way paid for by tax dollars, like the streets. All they would have to do is allow the TA to eliminate unprofitable routes --- ie. night service, Staten Island, etc. Then allow the private vans and express bus companies to serve these routes without subsidies, perhaps at a higher price, perhaps at a lower wage. The one system covers over all kinds of hidden subsidies. I asked the Director of Planning if the TA tries to estimate the average and marginal cost per ride on each route, by each time of day (you'd have to make some assumptions about allocation, but it could be done). He said no one wants to know, because it could be problematic depending on "whose ox is being gored." My guess is that people like Josh are on the receiving end of the money. The complainers always are in here New York.
[I'm sure the subway could make a profit on an "auto equivalent basis." That is, with the right of way paid for by tax dollars, like the streets. All they would have to do is allow the TA to eliminate unprofitable routes --- ie. night service, Staten Island, etc. Then allow the private vans and express bus companies to serve these routes without subsidies, perhaps at a higher price, perhaps at a lower wage. The one system covers over all kinds of hidden subsidies.]
This illustrates the subway's "balancing act." It cannot operate strictly in the manner of a private business concerned only with shareholder value, but neither can it operate strictly in the manner of a who-cares-about-cost social service organization. Some balancing point has to be found - and that's not an easy task because there's no consensus on where this point should be. My opinion is that the subway goes somewhat too far toward the social-service end of the spectrum. For instance, 24/7 service is maintained at virtually every station even though demand (not to mention revenues) may be lacking. There's no crushing need for overnight service at 28th Street on the N, to give an example that just occurred to me. It's no huge sacrifice to require anyone who wants to catch the subway at 3 am to walk to 23rd or 34th. Now this isn't to say that all overnight service should be dropped even though it probably isn't cost-effective. There is a need for at least some level of service during those hours, and the subway's social-service responsibilities require it to provide that service.
As I've said, I'd be willing to replace late night subway service with buses in most of the system, save for the IRT as far as the Hub in the Bronx, Queensborough Plaza, and Brooklyn's Borough Hall, where transfers would be made. Buses could move along pretty quickly in the middle of the night, people might appreciate being above ground, and there would be a free transfer. But the point is, the same people who complain about government waste often object to real choices. Government spending on others is waste, government spending on me is a God-Given Right.
I wouldn't be in favor of any route cut backs. There is plunty of business out there, it's just a matter of making it attactive to those that don't use it now (Yes, this is a can of worms, but it doesn't change the fact that more/better mass transit is the only logical way to serve the public better in NYC)(and yes, there will always be those folks that need/want to drive for some reason).
How about:
- Stretching out the intervals of off-peak service, BUT publish a schedule (Yes, they do now but try and get one easily). Then customers could better plan their trip (safety/connections). What would be so bad about a 20 or 30 minute interval if it connects (bus to subway ... subway to subway)
- Vans/mini-buses make good enomic since on lightly travled routes. Park the 40 footer at night & service it. Make a Jr driver group (relax the hiring requirements & let them prove they can show up on time & drive safely). Rush hour add them within route to handle peeks and valleys of traffic.
- Elimate some of the mngt fat in operations & make the drivers more accountable. You don't have to watch them all the time if they know you're holding the big stick. Most staff knows who the rotten apples are, if nobody does anything about it, mngt looses respect. Also, most people want to be good or think that they are good. Pat them on the back once in a while. It doesn't take long for the staff to appreciate that the boss REALY cares about there wellbeing !
- Profit ...nah, what would you do with it, but you could come very close & that would be the goal. I think the public would understand that, then maybe we could work on changing the mind set about free highways ... there's always hope?
Well Larry, lets see who else has something to say about this ?
Mr t__:^)
How about:
[- Vans/mini-buses make good enomic since on lightly travled routes. Park the 40 footer at night & service it. Make a Jr driver group (relax the hiring requirements & let them prove they can show up on time & drive safely). Rush hour add them within route to handle peeks and valleys of traffic.]
Not a bad idea, but the unions would never allow it.
- Elimate some of the mngt fat in operations & make the drivers more accountable. You don't have to watch them all the time if they know you're holding the big stick. Most staff knows who the rotten apples are, if nobody does anything about it, mngt looses respect. Also, most people want to be good or think that they are good. Pat them on the back once in a while. It doesn't take long for the staff to appreciate that the boss REALY cares about there wellbeing !]
Again, it sounds like a decent idea, but there are too many well-entrenched bureaucrats in the TA who would fight it.
For all the talk about management fat, the TA is not top heavy for an organization of its size. Of course it has the entire MTA on top of it, but that is another matter.
One issue is that government agencies have been slower to replace clerical staff with voice mail, word processing, electronic data interchange, etc. I remember when I was there and they exceed five clerical workers and replaced them with me and a computer. The union was not amused. No doubt the clericals are still there doing something, if they had not retired.
You'll notice that the MTA is posting purchasing solicitations on their website, but bid are still delivered by hand. It's only a matter of time before under $10,000 can be bid for on the computer, a buyer can click one mouse, and all the paperwork is done. And, then the storeroom can click one mouse upon receipt, and all that paperwork is done, and the vendor gets paid without the touch of another human hand. That'll eliminate lots of jobs. Metrocard will similarly eliminate lots of people who how have to manage cash, especially if they go to credit card sales by machine. Electronic vehicle tracking will allow the TA to reverse the large number of dispatchers in the field with a few hooked up to consoles.
We may never get down to just people driving the vehicles and fixing the vehicles, but that's the way its going. It just takes the government a little longer to move in that direction.
[One issue is that government agencies have been slower to replace clerical staff with voice mail, word processing, electronic data interchange, etc. I remember when I was there and they exceed five clerical workers and replaced them with me and a computer. The union was not amused. No doubt the clericals are still there doing something, if they had not retired.]
I worked as a clerk for the superior court in Connecticut from March 1991 to August 1993. The courthouse didn't get pushbutton telephones until the beginning of 1993, and still didn't have computers by the time I left. And this was a busy courthouse, serving a county with a population of about 150,000 (Middlesex).
But if you really want to see out of date stuff, work for the DC government. When I taught there, I became an expert in using a ditto machine. And there was no sign of pushbutton phones when I left in 96... DC government is really really scary.
(NYC's government not sustainable at this level) Where are you from?
I've got news for you, from the Bureau of Economic Analysis, U.S. Department of Commerce, Local Area Personal Income Series. The earnings of NYC's local government employees, including the Transit Authority and the City University of New York, accounted for 8.6 percent of the total earned in the city in 1996.
The earnings of New Jersey's local government employees, excluding NJ Transit and public universties (which count as state government), accounted for 8.6 percent of the total earned in NJ.
The earnings of local government workers in Upstate New York (excluding Albany County), excluding the State University of New York, accounted for 11 percent of the total earned upstate. Throw in state government (still excluding Albany, the state capital) and you have 16 percent of the money earned upstate. We know where it comes from.
The earnings of local government workers in the New York suburbs accounted for 11.6 percent of the total earned there, not including SUNY, the Long Island Railroad, and Metro North.
More recent employment data from the New York State Department of Labor. In 1997, the public schools accounted for 3.3 percent of the jobs in New York City, and 6.7 percent of the jobs in the rest of the state. From June, 1997, to June 1998, local government employment fell by 10,000 in NYC while rising by 10,000 in the rest of the state (state government also fell, by 11,000).
So NYC is not spending more, except on Medicaid, most of which goes to a small group of elderly people who have given their money to their kids and declared themselves poor. Even here, the city's share of the exhorbitant spending is going down, and the rest of the state's share is going up. And the people who really cash in at the expense of NYC government commute in, they don't live here.
I'm really sick of this cut the government criticism coming from the rest of the state, and the rest of the country. It's time we had representatives who would cut off our money to those who sneer at us, rather than letting it flow out in exchange for a few bucks for their pals. Once again, I say lets cut out the Vampire State. You pay for yours, we'll pay for ours, and we'll cut out the middlemen in Albany.
How in the world is it possible for a one-half mile segment of subeay to cost $700 million? Do the engineering studies actually justify this? Or is this simply due to New York City's unique "black hole" (or should I say "green hole") when it comes to money.
I can't believe it. Do you? If you make a connection to the tracks on the Brooklyn side of the bridge, west of DeKalb and tunnel down, away from utilities, and contine under the East River all the way to Manhattan, then split them with one branch connecting to the lower BMT City Hall station, I think you would be avoiding lots of utilities. It would be dug under lots of existing lines. It could be done entirely (or almost entirely), as underwater tunnels are dug, with no (or little) disruptive cut-and-cover activities. The other branch could be connected to the existing (unused) tracks that led from Nassau St. to the south side Manhattan Bridge tracks. With little additional tunneling, it could be curved north to join the tracks on Christie St. and continue on as they now do. This short tunneling effort to make the connection would replace the current north side tracks that turn onto Christie St.
It would be interesting to have outside independent engineering estimations of what was proposed for this short-sighted Rutgers connection approach, and also what I propose which would allow for both Broadway and 6th Ave. routings as the bridge had been able to handle. One other thing: There's no reason why, I think, that the tracks on the "new" lower level Chambers St. express platform couldn't continue past Canal St., using its existing center tracks. Canal St. would then become a local stop, and the free transfer to the IRT and Nassau St. lines could remain as-is. With the Manhattan Bridge connnection to the Broadway express tracks no longer existing, the Canal St. express tracks could be tied in, a bit north of the station, with the main Broadway express tracks going north, by continuing them, with some construction, over the bridge tracks that rise up from the now-unused Canal St. express station. Actually, they would replace them, in my concept. So there could be seamless four-track Broadway
service from Chambers St. north.
Maybe that might cost $700 million, but I really don't know. Maybe it might cost less. But it would provide the permanent, complete solution to this intractable problem.
what do you think?
Mike Rothenberg
"Nevertheless, it's hard to argue against halting the line at North Hollywood to see how much of a success it proves to be before expanding it further, and making the stabilization of the bus system the priority in the interim."
The problem, IMHO, is that the LA Red Line is commonly referred to as the "subway to nowhere" (contrast to the relatively heavily-traveled Blue Line, which can take you to the beach, or the Green, which connects by shuttle bus to LAX). I don't know if this is hyperbole or not (Hollywood hardly seems like "nowhere" to me) but if the Red Line really does "go nowhere," ceasing expansion will only guarantee that it will not be the success it has to be to justify expansion in many people's minds. The solution to a subway that goes nowhere is to have it go somewhere!
I have a question, for anyone who knows: have LACMTA and the myriad other public bus authorities in LA reorganized at least some of their bus lines to feed passengers to and from the rail system, rather than keep up the old route system and thus at least partially duplicate and compete with the rail system? Having the buses coordinate with and not duplicate the rail seems to be one of the factors in making new rail systems successful.
It's true that right now the Red Line doesn't go much of anywhere, but the Hollywood segment hasn't opened yet (scheduled for the coming spring). From there, in a couple more years, the line will proceed in a tunnel through the Santa Monica Mountains to North Hollywood, which despite the name is quite a distance from Hollywood proper in the San Fernando Valley. The Universal Studios theme park is en route, and I think it gets a station. It's at that point that construction will be halted, but it seems like there could be enough 'somewheres' on the route by then to make it viable.
Sketches of the Hollywood stations are on the LA MTA site; they all incorporate bus transfer stations, but it doesn't say how bus service will be reorganized to feed the subway.
Why is this car in the TA museum when all the other cars of this type are atill on active duty?
Forty of these single cars were purchased to make the 11 car trains on the Flushing line. At the present time all the 39 other cars in the fleet are sufficient to protect the 29 trains for rush hour service. If service is increased, I suppose 9306 could be returned to service.
Since the #3 line which uses nine car trains is running single unit R62A's, there is no need for the R-33 there either.
9306 was never rebuilt, either. It has the distinction of being the only car in the Museum whose sister units are still in active service. I listened in once as a member was talking about that car to a school group. He quizzed the kids as to which line 9306's sisters operated on; I don't remember if anyone guessed the #7.
Speaking of the Transit Museum, why do they keep the storm doors on the trains locked now, whereas before, they used to be open?
I think I know why, but I just want to get another opinion.
There was an incident 2-3 years ago in which a kid fell onto one of the tracks when he leaned over between cars, or something like that. He wasn't hurt badly, but his father raised a big stink about it. Apparently, the kid's parents weren't holding him by the hand even though there are signs posted to that effect.
To make a long story short, that's why there are those railings blocking off the gates on the ends of the cars, and why the storm doors are kept locked. I was really bummed, because I loved to climb up on the step plates on R-1 #100 and R-4 #484 and pretend I was a conductor.
Information would be appreciated on road numbers of all F40PH still in
service and current status of the E60 fleet.Do the E60s run specific
passenger trains?
The E60s are still around, they seem to pull the heavier trains. You never see them in CT. AFIK, they have been derated in power, and restricted in speed.
Does anyone know a history of these things, and what the problems with them are? I've heard that they've had lots of problems, and are somewhat prone to derailing, but never anything specific.....
The aging E60's are still in service with Amtrak but I don't think NJT has any left in service.
E60's are the the only engine that can haul those roadrailers or whatever Amtrak calles them. The AEM7's can't handle the breaking system or something like that.
Anyone else noticed how popular these themed restaurants are in NYC? First it was "The Rock n'Roll Cafe"," then came "Planet Hollywood" and "The Motown Cafe". Wouldn't it be cool if there were a restaurant with the subways and/or buses as a theme?
How about the entrance made from the front of an R1-9 series car. Then inside the walks are lined with huge blown-up pictures of classic subway trains from the Third Ave. El to the Broadway Junction. The waiters/waitresses would be decked out in old-time conductors uniforms. The food would all have different names like: The Sea-Beach Line Fish and Chips dinner -- or The Culver Cheeseburger Deluxe. And of course by the bar (called The Third Rail) there could be authentic straphangers for those requiring balance between drinks!
I think the time has come for NYCTA railfans to have a "place of their own."
Any interested parties, please feel free to post additional thoughts/conceptual plans here.
Thanks, BMTman
This map, found on this site is great but no longer accurate. Any plans to update?
Anyone else noticed how popular these themed restaurants are in NYC? First it was "The Rock n'Roll Cafe"," then came "Planet Hollywood" and "The Motown Cafe". Wouldn't it be cool if there were a restaurant with the subways and/or buses as a theme?
How about the entrance made from the front of an R1-9 series car. Then inside the walks are lined with huge blown-up pictures of classic subway trains from the Third Ave. El to the Broadway Junction. The waiters/waitresses would be decked out in old-time conductors uniforms. The food would all have different names like: The Sea-Beach Line Fish and Chips dinner -- or The Culver Cheeseburger Deluxe. And of course by the bar (called The Third Rail) there could be authentic straphangers for those requiring balance between drinks!
I think the time has come for NYCTA railfans to have a "place of their own."
Any interested parties, please feel free to post additional thoughts/conceptual plans here.
Thanks, BMTman
[Anyone else noticed how popular these themed restaurants are in NYC? First it was "The Rock n'Roll Cafe"," then came "Planet Hollywood" and "The Motown Cafe". Wouldn't it be cool if there were a restaurant with the subways and/or buses as a theme?
How about the entrance made from the front of an R1-9 series car.]
Theme restaurants appear to be a concept whose time is passing. Just recently, Television City and Night Gallery failed, the Fashion Cafe is circling the drain, and on a nationwide level stock in Planet Hollywood is selling at pocket-change levels. The essential problem with theme restaurants is that they attract a large number of customers - once. Repeat business, the "secret" to almost every restaurant's success, is lacking.
By the way, I've heard that there is a deli on Staten Island that does use half of an old car (R9?) as its entrance.
There is also a partial subway car at a resturant in some obscure part of long island (Farmingdale?), and, by Wallingford in CT, there's an entire old subway car from some system, I can't tell if it's boston, NY, or philly though....
Ellen's (Starbucks?) Diner next to the Winter Garden Theatre on Broadway (Manhattan) is owned and operated by a former Miss Subways. The entrance is a mocked up IRT Redbird with no side doors and the inside has some pictures of old trains and some of the old advertisements that used to be displayed on the trains.
There is also a deli on Richmond Ave on Staten Island (not too far from the SI Mall) that has an R9 in it. I don't know its name.
Your idea is novel, but how many people would go to the restaurant if the real thing is right beneath their feet?
--Mark
The deli is Golden's; they have 3/4 of an R1/9 in the restaurant, which you can sit in and eat.
As for theme restaurants, the problem is 2-fold. First, they really cater to tourists, thus the 'no repeat business' Second, their prices are too high for the average New Yorker to walk in and eat. I wouldn't mind decorating a regular diner wiht subway memroabilia (ala Applebee's Restaurant) but I'd have to draw the line at the thematics.
A serious problem you'd have with the entrance being an old subway car end is fire codes and the ADA...
-Hank
[As for theme restaurants, the problem is 2-fold. First, they really cater to tourists, thus the 'no repeat business' Second, their prices are too high for the average New Yorker to walk in and eat.]
Add a third factor - the food usually is mediocre at best.
Apparently noones ever heard of a certain chain of sub sandwich shops I think its name begins with "Subway".....
There is a place at the end of N line in Astoria called "The Last Stop Cafe". I think it has an entrance molded out to look like an subway car. I don't know if its still there but its a cafe/snack bar. Don't know about the food or the prices because I have never actually been in there.
Subway is a national chain; however, I don't recall seeing much in the way of subway-related decor in the few that I've visited (San Francisco, Chicago, probably a few other places -- not one of my favorites!)
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
There's a Subway franchise on Boylston Street across from the Copley Station of the MBTA Green Line in Boston. The owner is a subway fan, and has adorned the walls with memorabelia (including NYC stuff!)
[There is also a partial subway car at a resturant in some obscure part of long island (Farmingdale?), and, by Wallingford in CT, there's an entire old subway car from some system, I can't tell if it's Boston, NY, or philly though....]
The Wallingford restaurant is called the Yankee Silversmith Inn. At least that was its name a couple of years ago, the last time I went by it - we all know how restaurant names change :-) Anyway, I believe that the old rail car on display is from a regular, mainline railroad, not a transit system. It seems a bit larger than a subway car. But I'm not sure of that, mainly because I last saw it during my pre-railfan days!
Down in the Tampa-St. Pete/Clearwater area, there's a chain of pizzerias called Lenny n Vinny's New York style Pizza. Has a lot of old signs and handrails and other stuff. Their prices are medium and the food's mediocre
I used to live in Hamburg, NY, which is about 15 miles Southwest of Buffalo. At the corner of Armor Duells Rd. and Abbott Rd. in Hamburg is Hoak's Armor Inn. They actually have an LRV dining area out front, painted in Buffalo Metro colors. I'm not sure, however, that it's actually a Buffalo car. Unfortunately, I wasn't much of a light rail fan until I moved to Boston, so I never paied much attention to it. I'd sure love to know more about that car, so if anyone has any info...
Anybody know whatever happened to the R-1/9's that supposedly went to Houston to be used as restaurants?
I believe it was Car 175 that was in Houston. It was sold to the Seashore Trolley Museum in Maine to serve as a parts source for the R1/9s 800 and 1440.
-Constantine
I believe the restaurant in Wallingford is the Yankee Silversmith, and it has a railway coach, not a subway car. At least it's not a New York subway car.
There was a TV show called Night Gallery, hosted by Rod Serling, at one time; it was similar to Twilight Zone.
Of course, there are Subway sandwich restaurants whose walls are covered with accounts of Day One on the IRT.
The one in Wallingford, Ct is an Philly Market St. Car. It is located south of the center of town just off US 5. It sits next to Amtrak's Springfield line. It's a pizzaria. The Yankee Silversmith with its parlor car is on the north side of Wallingford, also on US 5. Went by the pizzaria last Friday night. Lights were out. Maybe went out of business.
I was at the Yankee Silversmith once, in 1973. We had just moved to Cheshire from New Jersey. The only thing I can really remember is the ceiling fan in the rail car (or maybe it was in the lobby). It made me think about the R-1/9s and their clerestory fans.
I'd like to see a restaurant on the top floors of the Williamsburg Savings Bank building (which is primarily occupied by dentists). I'd go there just for the view, day or night. A subway theme wouldn't hurt -- almost every subway in Brooklyn (except mine) stops nearby, along with the LIRR. I wonder what the state of the building and its upper floors is. Perhaps the elevators are not good enough. It seems a natural to me.
The Subway sandwich chain is subway themed, with maps on the wall and a sandwich called "BMT". It is a Connecticut-based national chain which only recently came to New York, with a few locations.
Perhaps they could open a fancy specialty restaurant, sort of like the fancy Wall St. McDonalds, and the nearby cyber-Burger King. That would probably fulfill your wish. It could even include a museum giftshop
Subway started in Bridgeport I think. I once had a class where Bob, from Bobs Discount furniture (ANYONE in CT or Mass knows who I'm talking about - he really isn't that annoying in real life, actualy, he's pretty cool) talked to us. Apparently, he had an oppertunety to part own the Subway near UConn (Stores, a HUGE campus). He turned it down, which was a bad move, because that is by far thew most sucessful store in the chain. Subway is a pretty old chain anyway, I've known about them for years...
They're not newcomers to New York, either. They have, however, had some major expansion lately. But they've been around NYC for years...
-Hank
Funny you should mention UConn - it's my alma mater. There was a Subway trailer right by the group of dorms which included mine (South Campus, which no longer exists; new dorms just opened this fall); however, I never bought any subs, or grinders, as they're called in New England.
That Bob guy wasn't the same one as in those Bedding Barn commercials back in the 70s, was it? Those were pretty funny: either he'd have a pie thrown in his face, or be pulled out of camera range by a big hook, or he'd be wearing a bathrobe. All the while, he'd be talking about 78 rpm, kind of like John Macheeta (sp) in those Federal Express commercials.
I can just picture the menu:
The BMT - (B)acon, (M)ayo and (T)omato
The IRT - (I)talian bread with (R)ussian dressing and (T)urkey
The IND - (I)rish soda bread with (N)achos and (D)ijon mustard
The Second Ave. Subway - an empty plate
The Manhattan Bridge - a broken plate
The Token - a disappearing plate
The Lexington Ave. Line - a plate overflowing with too much food
The R-40 - comes on a slanted plate
The Bedford to 1st Ave. Special - only one piece of food on your plate at a time
The Metrocard - all you can eat this month for $63
Should I stop now? :-)
Can you add the following to your menu?
Nassau Loop - If you order it, it's interesting, but it takes forever to get it and just as long to eat it.
42nd St Shuttle - Made and served by the same person (one man), not available after midnight.
Broadway Express - The ingredients are only available sporadically, but it's worth the wait.
But seriously, there is (or was - can someone confirm) a restaurant in Montreal, on Ste. Catherine St., called "The Tramway" with a trolley theme. The outside doors resembled the folding type found on most trolley cars, and menu items had names that evoked trolleys. I recall seeing it several times during a visit four years ago. Can anyone verify if it's still in business, or whether it's gone the way of Montreal's trolleys?
How about:
R-10 - comes on a plate which plays, "Take the A Train", and makes lots of noise.
Triplex - comes on a plate made of solid lead - ceramic-plated, of course.
I couldn't resist adding a few more:
The R-46 - comes on a plate with an electronic readout, out-of-tune ding-dong sounds, and lots of hairline cracks.
The R-32 - comes on a fluted stainless steel plate with blue edges.
The R-16 - may not be available at all times; it all depends on whether the plate needs repairs.
Let's not forget the R-38: comes on a plate that's half fluted and half flat, and has curly handles at each edge.
Wayne :o)
That's pretty good. How about:
The R-11: comes on a plate equipped with a precipitron which sterilizes itself (and everyone else around it!).
The Hi-V: comes on a steel plate equipped with a built-in stun gun and a "Danger - High Voltage" label in plain view
The Redbird Special: comes on a - what else? - red china plate; offer good while supplies last.
The "L" train special of the day - comes on a hexagonal plate!
The "Wilson Avenue" comes on a plate shaped like a tombstone!
Wayne
One neat idea may be placing the restaurnat in the labrynth of tunnels between the Manhattan ridge and DeKalb since theres so much room there , including an abandoned station, as well as enough activity. However, I doubt the MTA would sanction this... But it'd still be pretty neat...
BTW the Noah's New York Bagels chain in the Bay Area features Subway maps street signs AND tiled signage
I don't know if anyone mentioned them but there is a chain of sandwich restaurants called "SUBWAY",(get it, submarine sandwich). The wallpaper in their stores contains old New York City subway maps and newspaper articles about the subway from the 1880's to the 1930's.
"Subway"s are everywhere - the map they have up isn't THAT old - probably dates from 1974 or so - it's a Hagstrom's Atlas Map I think.
It shows the 6th Avenue/Broadway "KK" as single "K" and still shows the "EE" to Queens (before the "N" took over in 1976).
Wayne
There is a chain of Cozzoli's pizza restaurants in metro Denver featuring New York-style pizza by the slice, stromboli, cannoli, and other Italian delights. One of these restaurants has a huge subway wall map from probably the early 80s; the one at the mall across the street from us has photos of New York - the Manhattan skyline, East River crossings, etc.
The pizza's pretty good, if you like New York-style.
There is a tavern (bar) on Westchester Ave near the Pelham Line terminus that is called "The Third Rail". They have some neat murals on the walls depicting the Westchester Ave El. The bar is said to be popular with TA employees.
One has already been opened and it is not the Subway sandwich bar which exist in all parts including my home town. It is the Sbarro Pasta and Pizza restaurant at 34th Street Penn station on the 1,2,3,9lines. Part of the basement overlooks the station platforms so that you can eat and watch "redbirds" all at the same. The foods' all right too.
Here in Philly Land, there is a Subway hoagie(I don't know what you guys up there call 'em) on 15th and Locust that has all the walls decked out in photographs of Low-V's and ancient subway maps(joint service to Astoria and Flushing).
********NOTE*********
To those of you who watched "The Cosby Show " a few years back, did you ever notice the sign in Theo's room behind his bed that said "Subway to Van Cortlandt Park, Harlem, ......."?
It's an old sign.
Jack, beware! While Subway makes a decent sandwich, anyone in our fair city who mistakes one for a gen-you-ine Philadelphia hoagie is asking for trouble and a one-way ticket out of town!
There's something I really dislike about Subway the sandwich place. Their subs normally come with all sort of goop on them - lettuce, tomato, onion, pickle, etc. Now all I want is meat, cheese, mayo or mustard, and sometimes olives. But when I ask them for it like that, they actually get annoyed. Like I'm some sort of freak for not wanting it loaded with vegetables. Sorry, I hate that attitude.
Perhaps because I'm from NYC, and a good chunk of my friends are Jewish, but I pretty much go with meat as well. Of course, that pretty much eliminates a real Philly Cheesesteak too.
You can always get a Philly cheesesteak without the cheese. To add to Peter's peeve, I visited a place called "Steak Escape" out west last summer. It's a chain that says it captures the taste of Philly steak sandwiches. I asked for one of their specials without the lettuce, tomato, etc (with all that junk on it, here in Phila it's called a steak hoagie), and then asked the server if anyone from Phila had ever commented on the quality, etc. She had not been aware of this, and then I told her she was about to get the opinion of a Phila boy (the sandwich was fairly good, but places outside of Phila can never get the rolls just right). The server then told me that most eastern folks order the sandwich without all the accoutrements, which she thought was odd...
There's always the good ol' Fat Cat, and the other Fats...
Dave P. should (I hope) know what I'm talking about ;)
"Now all I want is meat, cheese, mayo or mustard, and sometimes olives. But when I ask them for it like that, they actually get annoyed."
That's almost exactly how I order my sandwiches at Subway -- meat, cheese, mustard, pickles, and that's all -- but I have **never** been given any trouble about it or had them cop an attitude about it. Maybe it's the Subway locations you go to -- complain to the manager or the owner (I believe they are individually-owned franchises).
Not subway-themed, but at least transit-themed: the Trolleyman Pub, operated by the Redhook Brewing Co. at their brewery in Seattle. The brewery is in a former carbarn, and their in-house restaurant/brewpub has a lot of Seattle trolley memorabilia scattered about.
And even a rolling transit-themed restaurant: Around 1960, the lounge sections below the domes on the California Zephyr coffee-shop cars were redecorated as the Cable Car Room -- complete with a photo-mural looking out the front end of a car descending Hyde Street toward the bay. These remained in service until the CZ was discontinued in 1970; I believe some of the cars ended up with Amtrak, but I don't recall seeing the cable car decor after the end of the CZ. No doubt if they were rebuilt, Beech Grove overlaid the murals with purple carpeting.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Last year, many people lamented and complained when the R-68A and R-40 Slants were swapped between the B and Q line. I tried to explain that there were sound maintenance reasons for the swap. Well the numbers are in for October and they indicate that it was the correct move. The MDBF on the B line has more than doubled since the R-68As were moved there. But the real news is that the MDBF on the Q line is now flirting with an unbelievable 200,000 Mile MDBF.
Also, E line has jumped back to about 180,000 miles MDBF since the R-32s were moved back there. The #4 line was the highest rated line at roughly 230,000 miles MDBF.
Steve- can you post the whole results?
Actually, MDBF is computed 4 ways: By Car Class, By Car Class/Shop, By Shop and By line. It would take aconsiderable amount of time and space to post the entire result. However, since we were speaking about line MDBF, I'll post that, rounded to the nearest 1,000 miles:
(The H, FS and Grand Central Shuttles are included in the overall MDBFs only...)
A = 73,000
B = 123,000
C = 43,000
D = 142,000 (yeah Concourse)
E = 186,000 (Way to go Jamaica)
F = 87,000
G = 117,000
J/Z = 51,000
L = 53,000
M = 72,000
N = 92,000
Q = 200,000
R = 48,000
South = 84,000
1/9 = 72,000
2 = 88,000
3 = 62,000
4 = 223,000
5 = 78,000
6 = 81,000
7 = 132,000
North = 93,000
Fleet = 88,000
I can't believe the difference between the MDBFs of the R40s on the Q (200K) and the R-42s/R40Ms on the J/Z (51,000). I always thought the R40s would be the first to go, even before the R32s and R38s, but now I guess I'm not so sure. What do you think could account for the difference? J/Z trains doing more starting/stopping than the Q trains?
--Mark
The original hypothesis was that the R-40s were in need of TLC. By moving them to the Q line (a part time line), they were able to get the needed additional maintenance to get those cars into a good state of repair and keep them there. Unfortunately, East NY Shops has no such part time service. However, my point was that this decision, which was made unilaterally, by maintenance personnel, was met with a tremendous public outcry but was the RIGHT decision....
> However, my point was that this decision, which was made
> unilaterally, by maintenance personnel, was met with a tremendous
> public outcry but was the RIGHT decision....
Agreed, and it was a good one from a railfan standpoint, too :)
--Mark
Agreed. You get a nice view of the Brighton line, and the slant R-40s get to strut their stuff on an express route.
To reiterate what Steve said earlier, the East New York R40 and R40M combined had a MDBF of 170,000. Not bad. I bet if you take the R40M out of the equation, the MDBF goes to 200K. I rode #4399 on the "L" last Saturday, and she was in fine shape, full of pep, everything working and in place, not bad for a 30-year-old. Her brood included mate #4398 and #4404-4405, #4442-4443 and #4408-4409, all in great condition.
Wayne
It sounds like my beloved Slant R40s are truly in their prime at the tender age of 30 Years.
How is the MDBF for Slant R40 on the "L"? (there are 48 of them there)
Wayne
Unfortunately, the R-40s and R-40Ms are lumped together at East New York. The East NY R-40s ran at 170,000 miles MDBF for October. The Coney Island (B) R-40s hit an amazing 213,000 MDBF Miles.
We are going to be starting our March of Dimes Drive again shortly. Unfortunately, we ran into some problems with our Non-Revenue car fleet drawing book. However, we do have four different books we will be shamelessly hawking for this worthwhile charity.
The new one is called "Subway to the Worlds Fair" by Frederick A. Kramer. It's a softcover 32 page book about the NYC subways to the 1939 World's Fair. The book is 32 pages with more than 40 Photos of the two subway lines to the world's fair. There are some great ones of the IND line which passed through Jamaica Yard en route to the fair. It also has detailed info of the joint IRT/BMT service to Willets Point Station.
In addition to that book we have the 1998 Subway Guide, the 1995 Subway facts book and the "Revenue and Non-Revenue Car Drawings" book (1998 version).
The donations requested are (Including first class postage)
Subways to the Worlds Fair ........ $12 (About the same as Amazon.com)
1998 Subway Guide ................ $ 5
1995 Subway Facts Book ............ $ 5
Revenue & Non-Revenue Car Drawings .$29
Some of the above are in short supply but we will try to accommodate anyone who is interested. Well, that's my last pitch for 1998. If anyone is interested, E-Mail me and .......... well you know the drill by now. Last year, the NYCT was the top March of Dimes fund-raiser in New York at $156,000.00. We intend to do even better this year. Thanks in advance for your support..
Steve
Today on Channel 4 they showed that a yard on the 5 in the Bronx was causing to much dumping. What is north of the Dyre Avenue line is it the Pehlam Manor Yard or does nobody, cause I will find out- someway. I like mystries of the subway.
C. James Rivera
There's just a 2 track stub at the end of the Dyre Ave line.
I never heard of a "Pelham Manor Yard". The only one I know of on the Pelham Line is Westchester Yard between the WestChester Square and Middletown Road stations.
--Mark
Well that is strange because how come I see a yard type signal after the station. Also they said that the Yard was in Pehlam Manor section of the Bronx.
I saw the report in question. At first, I thought they were referring to the area around Pelhan Yard (#6 line). However, after thinking it over, I believe that they were actually referring to the area adjacent to the Dyre Ave Line ROW.
Mark,
I e-mailed you several days ago, asking about 8mm/Hi8 video tape.
Did you get my e-mail? If so, why no reply?
I haven't received any e-mail over the last few days, despite the
fact that I have written to a number of people. I don't know whether
or not my e-mail is working, or people are just not responding to
any of my messages.
I've seen your posts here on SubTalk several times since I e-mailed
you, therefore, I assume that you got my message. I would really
appreciate a reply from you, even if you can't answer the questions
I put in my e-mail message. Hope to hear from you soon.
Timothy
As of 2 days ago, I didn't receive any e-mail from you. I didn't check last night; I will check again tonight. And don't worry - I respond to all e-mail.
--Mark
e-mail received and reply sent.
--Mark
I got your reply. Thank you very much.
-Timothy
Okay guys.... the SubTalk board is overwhelmed enough without this sort of thing. Obviously your email works. Please don't overburden SubTalk as well...
Recently, I was scanning through the illustrated car roster on this site to find some more pictures to use as wallpaper for my PC at my office. Scanning through the R32 photos, and having grown up on the Brighton Line, I found a nice photo taken at Parkside Ave on the Manhattan bound side.
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/slides/r32/r32-parkside.jpg
(It is on the 121-130 page of the R32 photos)
After further investigation, there is an interesting sight on the right side of the photo....the gates of an R1-10 series car. It seems AWFULLY close to either the local or express in the photo, and it would have to be a TREMENDOUS optical illusion if it was actually a CI-bound train.
Does anyone have any ideas as to how it could have been so close?? Is there signaling entering the Parkside Ave station that would have held up the QB???
Just curious...theories are welcome.
Thanks.
I would suspect it was a fan trip or other special movement. Even with signals the trains wouldn't be that close in service.
Anyway, funny you should mention that photo. Joe Testagrose posted it again recently and I'm putting up a cleaner copy of it right now. The new name of the image is
www.nycsubway.org/slides/r32/r32-3943.jpg
-Dave
Oddly enough, out of the hundreds of pictures on Subway Resources, this picture is the one I selected for my work PC wallpaper a couple of weeks ago!
ANy other photos to reccomend?? I have seen alot, but not all of them. I am looking for some good ones.
My choice is the R4 #800 at 190th Street. It's a great shot of the car in the Subway... and I've run it at its home for the past 10 years, Seashore!
Todd, And I thought you just RODE trains & DROVE buses !!!
Mr t__:^)
Mr. t...
As any member of a trolley museum will tell you, operating streetcars, interurbans, and rapid transit equipment is a thrill. I can still vividly remember when a kid taking the HH to the A to the AA to visit my aunt on W. 75th street, and standing on the platform at 72nd street waiting for that precious moment when two locals would screetch into the station and two expresses would zoom by, all at the same time! I knew of course that I'd never get to OPERATE one of them... but alas, now I can thanks to the museum preservation movement of which I am a proud member.
It's hard to recommend any, as there are so many choices. I just went through them at lunch one day and selected one that seemed interesting (even though I didn't notice the peculiarity that's been mentioned).
My favorite (PC wallpaper) is:
r16-6336.jpgR16 6336 @ Neck Rd. (M) 23-Dec-76. Photo by Doug Grotjahn. Collection of Joe Testagrose.
The reason I chose this one is the location. Neck Rd station was "my station" when I was growing up in Brooklyn.
[My favorite (PC wallpaper) is:
r16-6336.jpgR16 6336 @ Neck Rd. (M) 23-Dec-76. Photo by Doug Grotjahn. Collection of Joe Testagrose.
The reason I chose this one is the location. Neck Rd station was "my station" when I was growing up in Brooklyn.]
Uh, that one harkens back to the subway's "decorated" era. Thanks for the suggestion, but I'll pass :-)
I vary my "wallpaper" from time to time; currently I have R-10 3336 at Far Rockaway on the A. It's a case of the best car on my favorite route sporting my all-time favorite white-and-teal blue scheme with the band at the belt rail. There's no caption on the photo, but I downloaded it from the subway car photo section on this website.
I can still visualize an A train of those cars in that scheme rocketing past 81st St...
A few of my favorites:
the 2 side shots of green R-10's crossing the Rockaway trestle
the picture of two E trains - an R44 and R1/9 - side by side at the Rockaway Park yard.
I like walls. Right now I have the PC at work (not the UNIX box) set to Bowery BMT station from the Nassau Street collection; at home, I have a nice Jefferson Street BMT station icon and directional sign from the Canarsie Line gallery.
Wayne
It would appear from the photo that there was some delay in service (at Prospect Park, most likely) and Comand Center had the train operator of the follower 'key' up to the R-9. This is sometimes done when one train is going to be evacuated through another, OR to get another train into a station to be discharged. It's not likely a fan trip since they would NEVER put a road train on the same track with a special.
[It's not likely a fan trip since they would NEVER put a road train on the same track with a special.]
Also note that the man at the railfan window of the D seems to be wearing a suit and tie. That's an unlikely choice of attire for a fan trip, even considering that people dressed more formally back then.
Another odd element - the coupler on the QB is bright and shiny, while the rest of the car is rather dingy.
Some more observations:
Don't the people in the QB train window seem to be leaning and straining to see the D train?
And doesn't the D train seem both a good bit higher and a LOT more tilty than the QB?
[Some more observations:
Don't the people in the QB train window seem to be leaning and straining to see the D train?
And doesn't the D train seem both a good bit higher and a LOT more tilty than the QB?]
Not so sure about the first one. But you're right about the D train, it's definitely got quite a tilt to it. Presumably that is related to the photographer's angle in some way.
Is Parkside on a curve at all? Maybe the express track is banked for higher speeds. That would explain the tilt.
The D train is moving at a fast speed... that's why its tilted. If it wasn't tilted, good old centrifical force would push it off the track!
[The D train is moving at a fast speed... that's why its tilted. If it wasn't tilted, good old centrifical force would push it off the
track!]
But it looks like there's another train directly ahead of the D on the same track.
Parkside is on a gentle curve and the express tracks are superelevated in this area to allow them to take the curve at high speeds. The express tracks on the Brighton Line were traditionally elevated from the local ones; I never paid attention to see if this is still the case after the recent track replacement programs.
--Mark
<>
after further looking at the photo...the QB's motorman has his arm resting on the window which leads me to believe Steve's theory. He proabably "keyed in" to the station, and was waiting for traffic to clear.
On the commuter line that I use to go to/from work every day, the Lowell Branch of the MBTA "purple line," there is a station on a curve called Wedgemere. So that trains can pass this station at MAS (70 mph on this stretch, I believe), the track is superelevated. However, nearly every train stops at this station, and passengers slide on their seats (to the left outbound and to the right inbound when facing forward) and struggle to remain upright at this station stop. During winter weather, I've seen people slip very easily on the steps heading on and off the train when ice/snow accumulates on the steps which are at an angle to the platform.
I've asked the old-time conductors why the station was built on a curve, especially since the next station (Winchester Center) is just a half-mile down the track. So far, no one has an answer that makes a lot of sense!
I agree about the key-by theory. That man on the Manhattan bound D train is too well dressed to be on a fantrip :)
--Mark
Could it be that the D train is being layed up on the express track? The gate on the side edge of the picture is another layup train in front of it and it might be the conductor in front window. Maybe?
Actually it couldn't or wouldn't be the case. That particular location is not and has not been used as a lay-up location.
At that time northbound trains were brought that close to one another south of the merge point near the Prospect Park station.
Also R1/10s were on the Brighton 'D' line after the major 1967 route changes.
Just had a thought about a situation that could possably hapen. If need be say for a car shortage could the M-4 cars be mated up with the M-3 cars? I figure the answer is probably no but maybe somebody could verify it.
Not exactly. Apparently the coupler height is different. On the fan trip last month, another participant pointed this out to me. As long as both types of cars are in operation simultaneously, the M-4's have to have the coupler adapter on the end cars, on the chance that they may need to mate with the Budds for emergency purposes. This is limited to pushing, pulling, etc.
While browsing through the pictures opf the beloved R-10's, I noticed one in the Coney Island Yard, but outfitted with the front of an R-42! The car number is 3192. Would anyone know anything about this? For me, its almost a disgrace to out fit a classic like the R-10 with the front of a homely R-42... --Kev.
That car was just a test bed for a proposed new look for the R-10 if it had been rebuilt. The new look would have all R-10s completely rebuilt and remodeled with R-42 fronts and R-44 interiors. Nothing ever materialized of it and the unit (as far as I know), was scrapped.
I think the same sort of thing was also done to an R-16.
I saw this car at an open house at the 207th Street yard when I was a kid. I remember being rather unimpressed, as R10's have been my favorite cars since I became a subway buff shortly after birth. Does anyone have an idea what year this open house might have been? My recollection does not include the date, unfortunately, but I do remember the presence of that R10 made ugly with the R42 front!
I don't know about the R10/42, but I saw the R16/42 #6429 at the 207th Street open house in 1980.
The seats in #6429 were the same as R44 but they were along the wall, not grouped as they originally were. It was signed up as "A".
Wayne
I've seen a picture of it. The whole body was redone in stainless steel. I wondder why they never pursued these rebuilding projects.
New York Subway Cars has a photo of this car. It mat have been back in 1978-79. If anyone would know it would be Mr. R-10 himself, William Padron.
R-10 car #3192 was to have been the prototype test unit to be the proposed rebuilding of the entire fleet with R-42 front ends, R-44 interiors (including a full-width motorman's cab), air conditioning, etc.
The car simply languished inside Coney Island Shops 1975-1980, with no real substantial work done any further. #3192 was ultimately sent to the scrap line at Coney Island Yard in 1980.
The rumor I heard that one of the reasons that the project never materalized is because it would have cost $357,000 on totally rebuilding each R-10 in this manner, much more than buying one R-46 car purchased brand new in 1975 at $275,000 each.
But, of course, the R-10 GOH rehab project of 1984-1986 of refurbishing 110 Westinghouse-equipped units was done in-house at 207th Street Shops. Each unit to be redone cost $65,000 a car, and the green painted cars would be in service until the last "farewell" fantrip excursion run on Sunday, October 29, 1989.
Don't forget...the very first ten-car R-10 train was placed into service on the IND "A" line fifty years ago this month on Saturday, November 20, 1948. Today, only two cars (#3184 at Coney Island Yard and #3189 at Pitkin Yard) are in existence today.
-William
And I'll bet that train thundered along CPW the way its sister units would for years to come.
Didn't the extension of the Fulton St. line to Euclid Ave. open at the same time?
The opening date for the four-station extension to Euclid Avenue was Novermber 28, 1948. Grant Avenue came in 1956; Broadway-East New York opened in 1940.
Wayne
I thought Broadway-East NY didn't open until 1946. From what I've read, the tunnel and trackways were finished all the way to Euclid Ave. by the early 40s, but track and signals weren't installed until after the end of WWII. There may have been track as far as Broadway-ENY before then, to allow A trains to reverse direction and switch tracks after Rockaway Ave. Brian Cudahy alludes to that in the original Under the Sidewalks of New York: "This section of the municipal subway was almost complete before the start of the war, but not quite."
I am looking for information about transportation in NYC,the figures and statistics,and more essay-like stuff about,for instance,the influence of the development of public transit systems on the develoopment of the city,...about urbanism too.
This is on study purposes,so I demand serious information.
Thanx
Does anyone have an updated listing of IRT Desination Signs,presently used
Thank you
Steve smokiecat@webtv.net
Does anyone have an updated listing of IRT
Desination Signs,presently used
Thank you
Steve smokiecat@webtv.net
Does anyone have updated Drawings of the Track
layouts ,showing Interlockings,Platform locations,,etc
Please respond directly to Smokiecat@webtv.net
Thank you
Steve
If you need Material describing any Routes,street Routings,turnarounds,Short Turns,Feel Free tocontact me
NYC Transit
LI Bus
NYC DOT-6 carriers
Westchester Cty Bee Line
Liberty Lines
Smokiecat@webtv.net
What is the plan to expand service on the east side? What has become of the 2nd avenue subway? Are there tunnels? Are there any other dormant lines on the east side?
Tim, May I suggest that you call up the previous threads by topic, i.e. 2nd Ave ... and you find a lot of detail there over the past couple of months.
Mean while the short answer to "any plans ... exist tunnels ... dormant lines" is YES, YES, YES.
Mr t__:^)
Five detached segments of the 2nd Ave. line were built before further construction was halted because of the city's fiscal crisis of the mid-70s. This doesn't include the Chrystie St. connection, which is considered part of that line. The station at Grand St. is designed to be expanded to a four-track, two island-platform station by simply knocking out the existing walls, and there is a segment just to the south which underpins the BMT tunnel approaches to the Manhattan Bridge whose trackways spread apart as they approach the Grand St. station.
The 2nd Ave. line project hasn't been killed officially, but is on indefinite hold. One thing is for sure: it is badly needed.
Can anyone tell me what SEPTA's rules are, when it comes to people
taking pictures and video taping in subway/elevated stations? Because
today I was in Philly to make a day of video taping and photography
on the Broad Street Subway and the Market-Frankford Line, and as I
entered the mezzanine of City Hall Station on the Broad Street Subway,
there were two transit police officers standing near the token booth.
I was just about to start video taping trains pulling into the station
as seen from the mezzanine above, when I decided to inform the officers what I was doing, and to make sure it was ok. They told me
that absolutely NO video taping or photography is permitted on SEPTA
property without a permit, and that if I was to be seen taking pictures or video taping by a SEPTA police officer, I would be arrested on the spot. They told me that if I wanted to do my video taping, go to customer service at SEPTA's headquarters to get a permit. I did just that. I talked to someone in Government Affairs,
who told me that there is no problem with me taking pictures and video taping, as long as I'm not interfering with operators, or creating a safety hazard, and that I DO NOT need special permission. So I took
that person's name and phone number, and returned to City Hall Station, and showed it to the officers. One of the officers took the number, and called from the token booth to verify that it was ok for me to do what I wanted, then I went my merry way.
Does anyone think that I really would have been arrested if I just
went about my business without first asking the officers? I've video
taped, and taken pictures on the subway countless times before without
anyone confronting, or stopping me. Why would they have done it this
time? Is it likely that those officers were just being plain @$$holes,
and were just trying to scare me? Hope someone can explain this
situation. I just want to know if in fact I do risk getting in trouble
whenever I take pictures on transit property.
Whoever gets an official answer to this query PLEASE E-MAIL ME with the official word as I have been tapped for assignment for SEPTA and PATCO station pictures, scheduled for late January 1999.
I don't want to go down there only to be slapped in handcuffs!
Thanks in advance,
Wayne
Unfortunately SEPTA's policy is completely unclear on this issue. When I was down in Phillidelphia, I was approached by a couple of police officers at one of the stations. the officer told me I needed a permit. I went down to Government affairs, again the same thing happend, they told me that there was no problem. The odd thing is that the exact situation happened last week, I spoke to a different person in Government affairs and they told me that I should call their office anytime I want to go out and shoot, so they "could let the police know where I am" I plan over the next two weeks to write to septa and get their policy in writing.
Tim and I chatted about this on the El fan trip last month. As far as I can tell, there is NO SEPTA policy on photography in the subway system. The only rules are those of safety and common sense. I have asked this question many times to various SEPTA folk and I usually get the same answer. They have almost unanimously told me, however, that the cops like to bust chops, especially since the cops think that someone is spying on them (and that's usually the reaction that one will get from challenging employees, who really think you have something to do with management and they don't want to be pictured doing something they shouldn't). My advice - play dumb and fire away.
> Does anyone think that I really would have been arrested if I just
> went about my business without first asking the officers?
Unfortunately, yes. I'd suggest you write ot stop by SEPTA HQ and get written documentation (a pamphlet, if available) on SEPTA's photo policy, or perhaps a letter from the individual you discussed this with, as proof of you not doing anything illegal. I usually carry excerpts from NYC Transit's photo policy pamphlet, just in case.
--Mark
You had mentioned that unfortunately, I would have been arrested if
I went about my photography and video taping without asking the
officers. Is it Very likely that they would arrest me on the spot, or
is there a more likely chance that they would just approach me, asking
what I was doing, and inform me that what I was doing was not allowed
without a permit, and possible just give me a warning? Also, in such
a situation, Would "acting dumb", or telling the officer that I didn't
know that photography or video taping wasn't allowed, save me from
getting into trouble?
If I was ever approached by a police officer while video taping or
taking pictures, What would be the best thing for me to say or do
that could keep me from being arrested, or getting into any
unpleasant situation? Would attempting to quickly leave the station
before the officer has a chance to slap the handcuffs on me be a good
idea?
I was at Union Station in DC on tow occasions taking photographs. Once I was not bothered the other time the security officer asked what I was doing I told him. He informed me that the area was for boarding passengers only but allowd me to finish my shoot and then I left. Sometimes they don't want to bother watching yoy or will be afraid that you will ge out of bounds where you don' belong or wher you can get hurt. Be careful out there.
A security officer (maybe the same one?) questioned me at the Clarendon DC Metro station. I politely but firmly told him the nature of what I was doing, and that probably the very photograph that I just took would be out on the Web in the near future, which, of course,
it is. This was enough of an answer for him to let me finish. All of the other Metro pictures were taken without question or incident.
Wayne
A study which came out early yesterday afternoon found the following subway lines the worst system: A,6,1,9. The best were the M,L,C and I believe the 7. To me it's pretty obvious that these lines with the exception of the 7 are ranked the best. These lines are not used as much even during the rush hours. I feel that the M(during the rush hours) does an unnecessary trip to Bay Pkwy in Brooklyn. I give the #7 line very good marks. There's a train every 3-5 minutes during most of the day. Even though the trip from Times Square to Flushing is short, delays are very unlikely.
-GarfieldA
The 7 is the best? I think thats the worst line. The trains on that line are ALWAYS crowded and Ive never seen a bigger bunch of freaky people on that thing... The M? The train that most of the day does a 5 station route between Brooklyn and Queens? And when it does go into Manhattan, it goes ito the Nassau Loop, which I think is great for the historical aspect, but in terms of convienence? Not really...
One thing the 7 has going for it is the fact that it doesn't share trackage with any other line, making it less prone to delays. Neither does the L, but since it has no express service, I wouldn't put it in the same class as the 7. One other thing the two lines have in common is that they have popular equipment: Redbirds on the 7, slant R-40s on the L, with a side order of R-42s. (Where are the R-40Ms these days?)
Most of the R40M's are on the J and Z lines, with a smattering mixed in on the L (4486-7; 4490-1; 4522-3 all spotted as L's; there are others too.) There are six consists of Slant R40 for L service (4398-4449; four units are gone);
the rest is truly a mix. I'm not sure if there are R40Ms and R42s dedicated to the L alone or if they move back and forth in the Eastern Division - kind of think that they do.
Wayne
As noted, the R40 slants are used on the L exclusively. All the other cars assigned to ENY are considered one unified fleet. All car models are mixed together, no preference is given to run certain models on one line or another. Cars are swapped daily because J trains are laid up at nite at Fresh Pond & Canarsie Yards. Trains with cars scheduled for Mileage inspection are usually swapped with "clean" consists into J service to save a move from Metro or Canarsie to ENYD as several J's are scheduled to lay up at ENYD anyway. Also by swapping cars/trains between all 3 lines, all cars will get their turn going thru the wash at Canarsie & Coney Island as the M lays up 8 trains at nite there, and a few less during the day.
Also with the J line running 4 car trains after 9:30pm on weeknights, this leads to extra cars stored in any of the three yards which leads to the majority or even all cars going through mileage inspection, washing, etc.
-GarfieldA
How did the G train fair and the E and F train in this survey. For service I would say the G train because on the weekends and sometimes on the weekdays you could wait like forever for a train to come.
In that survey, the N train was the only one that improved with regard to cleanliness and on-time service. I beg to differ with the on-time assessment. I have found that lately, the N trains are as late and as crowded as ever. There is a very simple answer: PUT MORE N TRAINS IN SERVICE DURING THE MORNING AND AFTERNOON RUSH HOURS. Yeah, I know about that extra N train that only goes to Canal Street, but hey, it's NOT ENOUGH! I'm sick and tired of being crammed into a train like a bunch of cattle.
Human Nature: the average passenger will always think HIS line is the worst, because he doesn't ride the outer reaches of the others! They all have their operational problems. We are now paying for what was not done in the past: new construction for the future. And as we approach the new milennium: THE FUTURE IS HERE & WE'RE NOT READY. Funny, the politicians point the fingers at the TA. But the politicians of the past are the ones which have dealt the TA the cards: no significant new routes for eons, only extentions. Will the politicians of today be ready for our chilren & grandchildren in the future? I don't think so. 30 years ago as a teen living in Greenpoint, I watched the heavy equipment sink the 63rs St. tunnel sections into the East River. Look at what we have today: another meaningless extension instead of a COMPLETELY new line thru Queens.
Adam, assuming you live in Astoria, I've got a suggestion about how to make the N train the best in the system, with more trains, the newest and cleanest cars, and a cop on every station and in every train, forever, with no cries of favoritism from anywhere else.
Push to have the Astoria line exended two blocks north into the manufacturing zone, the around to LaGuardia Airport. They're doing a "study" to make what is, in essence, a political decision -- based on NIMBY. Count on some Astoria residents to show up at meetings, and file lawsuits, insisting on a brand new billion dollar line which comes no where near them. Count on the state and city not to fund it. Count on other Astoria residents not to bother to do anything.
For much less money, the MTA could extend the existing line. The six trains per hour that would have gone on a separate line would instead come down the Astoria Line, which would then have 16 to 18 trains per hour at rush hour instead of ten, and 12 trains per hour off peak instead of six (the extra trains would presumably turn around at City Hall or Whitehall). As the city's "front door", this line would always get the newest and best cars, would be kept spotlessly clean, and would be heavily policed to make sure tourists and businesspeople don't get ripped off on their way into town.
I believe the airport riders would also get better service. For five to ten minutes extra travel time (a lot both ways every day, not much on an occasional ride to the airport) the wait for a train would be much shorter -- every four to five minutes instead of every ten. And you can bet those six train per hour in a separate train would not be full. The operating costs of that special train per ride would be a horrible drain on the rest of the system -- not as bad as the SIRT, but bad. Even going down the Astoria Line, a LaGuardia train could still get to Time Square in 40 to 45 minutes. A cab ride cross-town could take that long these days. Downtown would be 55 minutes away.
Why the separate train? Race, class, and NIMBY. NIMBY in Astoria (with force -- Peter Vallone is the Speaker of the Council, and you don't hear him demanding a new train to the airport). Snobbery that says that people rich enough to fly wont' want to get on something that looks like a NYC subway (I'm the only person in this entire agency that rejects that idea). Someone needs to mention that Astoria is not exactly a slum.
I would sure support that, Larry. As one who flies into LGA and heads into Manhattan at least twice a month (and I've been doing it for 10+ years), I can tell you that things have gotten progressively worse over the past few years. In particular, the route of the Q-33, the "most direct" route to the subway (E/F/G/R/7 at Roosevelt), takes much longer than it used to. There have been new traffic lights installed along the route (82nd St?); seemingly more people are double-parking and blocking the way on the narrow roads; congestion from shoppers has gone way up, and even getting out of the airport is getting worse due to increased vehicle (especially taxi) traffic.
The M-60 can be an alternative, but it too suffers from the on-airport congestion, plus it has to wind its way over to the Marine Air Terminal before heading out towards its connection with the [N]. In addition, it operates less frequently than the Q-33; and for the return trip, there is no sheltered waiting area along the GCP when transferring from the [N] as there is for the Q-33 at Roosevelt Ave.
Extending the [N] directly to LGA in my opinion would be the best thing that could happen to the NYC subway system.
Just a quick comment on the N train. N service today is limited by the Manhattan Bridge debacle. That line has always been the showpiece of the BMT. Normally it ran express on 4th Av., skipped Dekalb at rush hour, crossed the bridge, and ran express up Broadway. Except for the local running at both ends, is was a very fast trip with little interfering traffic. Today, with the slow grind through lower Manhattan along with the R, the N is a slow local with little hope for a speed-up until the bridge reopens. Regardless of whether the line is extended or not, the N headway is linked to the R for most of its route. The longer slower route also means that to maintain the existing headway, the N actually needs more trains than it did as an express. An extension will add passengers without the capability to add service.
And as I have read in several other posts, the possibility exists that when the South Side of the bridge reopens, the D and B will join the N on the Broadway express tracks, and the Q won't have a home in Manhattan. This creates the old (pre-Chrystie St.) situation, without the connection to the Nassau St. line to funnel off traffic. The D could turn back at 57th or sub for the Q through to Queens via 63rd, and the B could join the N going to Astoria, but now we have two expresses for every R going through the tunnel to Queensboro Plaza and the R riders will complain... This could however handle the airport extension (if it was done in time) but once the bridge was finally fixed the B&D would return to their normal routes (Broadway is the Q's normal route) and things wouldn't be any better.
It's a complicated mess and more traffic on the N won't help much, unless something else gives somewhere.
Hey, Gerry. Two thoughts after reading your detailed description of how BMT routes will have to be adjusted for an extension of the Astoria line.
1) express and local service on 6th Ave.
2) Your assesment of the situation omits the D train from The Bronx.
Does that really make sense?
Remember, life goes beyond Brooklyn and the BMT.
A former Concourse line rider.
1) express and local service on 6th Ave.
2) Your assesment of the situation omits the D train from The Bronx.
Remember, now, that the major culprit here is the Manhattan Bridge, and the fact that the south tracks can't connect to Chrystie St. without digging a short new Subway (cut and cover under the Manhattan Bridge Approach, and crossing an existing unused subway at 90 degrees). Bronx service for the D & B would probably terminate at Broadway-Lafayette under these conditions. (The F would be unaffected) Thus we have split service on the B & D with Bronx service running under 6th Av. and Brooklyn service under Broadway. 34th St.-6th Av. would be a required transfer point for through riders. The upshot of this would allow the B to extend over a lengthened Astoria line along with the N. Once the system returned to normal (BDF under 6th, NQR under Broadway) you are back to just the N going to Astoria (though you could boost service between Manhattan and Astoria by running local trippers from lower Manhattan to Queens. They would have to run local however since otherwise they would mess up the N & R (express Canal to 57th only gains 3 minutes), and would probably run in bunches with the N. on Astoria/LGA)
Unfortunately there is too much interplay among the existing lines to allow for much innovation of any sort. A four track Second Av. line with a connection to Astoria or an el on Second Av with a connection across the Queensboro Bridge :) would do better than any combination of existing routes at handling a lengthened Astoria/LGA service.
This comes back to my old point that the IRT did it right. Don't mix expresses and locals, or they will foul each other up!
Subway service to LaGuardia airport would make more sense than even a single-seat ride to Kennedy airport. And that's not to mention the plan now under construction, with the Jamaica switch.
Luggage is the key. If there's one thing above all that will push airport riders to take a taxi or direct bus over a rail link, it's the presence of cumbersome luggage. And it also seems likely that LaGuardia passengers will have less luggage on average than their Kennedy counterparts, given the former airport's emphasis on shorter-distance flights.
"Why the separate train? Race, class, and NIMBY. NIMBY in Astoria (with force -- Peter Vallone is the Speaker of the Council, and you don't hear him demanding a new train to the airport). Snobbery that says that people rich enough to fly wont' want to get on something that looks like a NYC subway (I'm the only person in this entire agency that rejects that idea). Someone needs to mention that Astoria is not exactly a slum."
Have these people ever rode the train from the airport in cities that have it? I use the Blue Line (Chicago) every day, and there are plenty of business people on the train with their luggage. When I have to fly out of Midway, I take the Blue downtown and change to the Orange Line to Midway. It's a bit slower than driving from my house to Midway (about an hour by car, about an hour and a quarter by train), but a lot less stressful -- Midway and Cicero Avenue are all torn up for construction. There are lots of suits and ties on the Orange trains, getting off at Midway. As to race, both the Blue and Orange pass through Hispanic neighborhoods between the airport and downtown, and nobody takes any notice of it.
I've only been in NYC on business once, but with the cab fare to and from LaGuardia (yes, I was reimbursed, but I still don't like shelling out a $20 bill plus tip, except for a good dinner) and with the few bags I carry, I would kill for a subway running from LaGuardia into Midtown.
(Don't like paying $20 for a cab). The plan which is most prominently mentioned is a separate express luxury train which covers its higher costs with a $10 to $15 price. The idea is to be price-competitive with a taxi, not with buses or subways, to appeal to the dicerning traveler.
I just don't get it. Faster, commuter rail type service makes sense to JFK, since a local train would take forever to get to Midtown. But the N train gets from Ditmars (the Astoria terminal) to Whitehall (at the tip of lower Manhattan) in 38 (off peak) to 43 (rush hour) minutes as a local. A fast connection from there would add just 10 minutes more. I'd bet Times Square could be reached from the airport in just 30 to 35 minutes.
I think one of the fears is that if beggers found it easier to get to the airport, the airport would be flooded with them, and this would be bad for the city's image. I think that's why the Port Authority wants expensive service, or no service at all.
"I think one of the fears is that if beggers found it easier to get to the airport, the airport would be flooded with them, and this would be bad for the city's image. I think that's why the Port Authority wants expensive service, or no service at all."
I have never encountered a beggar at O'Hare (45 minutes from downtown by Blue trains) or at Midway (30 minutes by Orange line). The closest thing to beggars at the Chicago airports are musicians playing for money, but there are only a handful of those in the subway station/garage area and the tunnels to the terminals, and none in the terminals proper. Also, the musicians seem to actually know how to play music, and are not torturing a violin as an excuse to beg.
It seems to me that there is greater justification for kicking beggars and the homeless out of an airport than there is out of something like the Port Authority Bus Terminal. While there are no beggars at the Chicago airports, there are plenty at the Union Station entrances. However, again there are no beggars **inside** the train station, due to the diligence of the Amtrak and Metra police.
With the terrorist treats, most of the airlines in NYC dont let you into the terminals without a plane ticket anyway
Excuses Excuses!
"With the terrorist treats, most of the airlines in NYC dont let you into the terminals without a plane ticket anyway."
That is exactly what I meant when I said that there's more justification for kicking beggars and homeless out of an airport than there is for doing the same in a bus station.
However, how does requiring a ticket to be in the terminals work with the new ticketless domestic air travel?? I haven't been issued an air ticket the last three times I flew on business. All I had to do was show my ID when I checked in at the gate to get my boarding pass.
[With the terrorist treats, most of the airlines in NYC dont let you into the terminals without a plane ticket anyway]
Anyone can walk into one of the terminals at LaGuardia or Kennedy airports without a ticket. After all, there are ticket sales counters in the terminals. At least at LaGuardia, tickets are required only for entry past the security checkpoints into the boarding councourses.
Somehow, I don't expect that many skells would flock to the airports to beg even if there is convenient transportation. Part of the reason there are so many beggars in Manhattan is that New Yorkers are so generous. Upper West Side-types are big givers, what with their ample supplies of guilt - not to mention their sizeable bankrolls. Travelers from other areas, as would be encountered in the airports, aren't likely to be so free to give. Soon enough the skells would get the point and head elsewhere.
I can get to the airplane jetways at JFK without a ticket, try American Airlines where American Eagle flies out of (Terminal 9). You get to the securtiy check point, say you have an electronic ticket on Eagle and half the time they don't even ask the flight number. When they do ask for the flight number, they have day's list of flights, they check it and your through.
Cross country flights leave from the same bunch of gates (I love seeing the ATR's and Saabs next to the DC10's).
I've done it.
Could someone please clarify something for me? If the N is indeed extended to La Guardia, will it be in the form of an elevated line or a subway. If it goes underground after Ditmars, I'm wholeheartedly in favor, as it will be one step towards putting the Astoria N line underground where it belongs. Secondly, it should have both express and local tracks. There are a great deal of people who live in "upper Ditmars" who stand to benefit from an extended line (not to mention the Ryker's Island employees and multitudinous visitors).
<< Could someone please clarify something for me? If the N is indeed extended to La Guardia, will it be in the form of an elevated line or a subway. If it goes underground after Ditmars, I'm wholeheartedly in favor, as it will be one step towards putting the Astoria N line underground where it belongs.>>
I lived in Astoria for many years, and let me tell you, if the N train were put underground, I would be protesting really loudly. No, not because I love the elevated line so much, but because of the insane cost of doing so. While putting the N underground along 31st Street may be a relatively "simple" thing to do, what about in the Queens Plaza area? Can you imagine the traffic disruptions that would be occurred at the 59th Street bridge. Driving in the area would be impossible. There are so many things that the money could be used for to improve Astoria service in other ways, some more practical than other, but all better then putting the N underground. Some things are running more trains per hour, a subway down 21st street (this could connect with the 63rd tunnel), a route to the Bronx, etc. Just my 2 cents.
Josh
If the N train were extended to LaGuardia, the extension would almost certainly be elevated -- even if the Astoria line itself were put underground -- because that close to the water a subway would be waterlogged. Which is where the opposition would come from. It's only two blocks from Ditmars Ave into an industrial area with no houses, but there are residences in those two blocks (four blocks, with two on two sides of the street). We can skip the improvement, try to make them swallow it, or buy them out. I'm for buying them out -- with the money saved by not building a separate ROW over the BQE, as has been proposed, the city could afford to do it. It could resell some of the land for commercial development, allowing the Ditmars commercial area to expand, and build a park on the other blocks.
As for a stop in the industrial area near Astoria Heights, would Astoria Heights residents even want it? I've heard that this is a neighborhood desperate to keep out "outsiders." If they would want it, its a fair thing to ask.
I, too, have thought of a Rikers Island spur. The idea would be to have a special shuttle running direct from Queensborough Plaza, up the new LaGuardia connection, and off on a Rikers Island spur, with no stops, during visiting hours. The LaGuardia connection would pass right by the Rikers Island Bridge. The spur might be able to be built as a one-track elevated across on the bridge. The visitors would have to take the train to Queensborough (or drive and park), then get on the shuttle, to get to Rikers. Guards could take it too. I'll bet that would be a hit in the neighborhood. People there hate the guards more than the prisoners.
On the other hand, there are many who want a separate line altogether so that out of towers don't have to mix with ordinary New Yorkers on the subway. Imagine their horror at the idea of airport passengers looking over and seeing a train painted in prison stripes on the next track carrying people to visit the city jail.
Will adding more trains on the line work?? During that time when the #2 trains were running on the Lexington line; it was pure hell. I just hate the fact of waiting and waiting in between stations and the train creeping along the tracks waiting for congestion to clear. Add to that a packed car of riders. I'm not a "N" rider, so I can't make any comment on how the situation there is, but I think by adding more trains like on the Lexington line will do more bad then good.
-Garfield
I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW IF IT IS NECESSARY TO HAVE A WRITTEN PERMISSION IF I WANT TO MAKE PICTURES (FOR PERSONAL USE) IN THE SUBWAY SYSTEM. IF IT IS, COULD ANYBODY GIVE ME THE ADDRESS WHERE THE PERMISSION IS OBTAINED?
Not this again.... please, see the FAQ. www.nycsubway.org/faq.html
-dave
A guy from Queens claims that the junction between the Queens Line and the Astoria Line into the 60th St tunnel is a crossover junction. It shows on the track maps as a grade separated junction. Which is it?
The line is the 11th street connection. It is grade separated on both ends. However, there is a crossover at the midpoint between the two tracks gd1 and gd2.
Well the station PA's work, at least at Church, Parkside and Prospect. Wednesday morning rush (7:30ish) a train went BIE (Brakes In Emergency) just before 7th Avenue.
We heard announcements that all D/Q service was "Not Running Between 7th Ave and Dekalb Ave."
This caused some confusion to pax since we were not moving at all and the following annoucment stated ways to transfer at Altantic/Paciffic and that some B trains were stopping at Dekalb.
Then many annoucements were made that "Due to an earlier inncident trains are moving but are moving slowly at 7th Ave". This drove customers crazy since we were sitting at Prospect Park for over 30 minutes as this same annoucement was made. Not once annoucement was made from the PA or the conductor that the Franklin Ave shuttle bus could be used as an alternative (though how you could crame an 8 car load of pax onto one bus that runs every 10 minutes).
We finaly were moving and we did proceed slow entering 7th Ave as there were signal maintainers along the walls (maybe the trip arm came up under the Q to put it BIE since they are 200,000 MDBF???)
Having customers informed is great, but usless and misleading information just makes customers crazy. The repeated "Please be patient" after 20 mintues with the conflicting annoucments caused a lot of needless tension. Even though it is no fault of any TA empoloyee, maybe an "We are trying our best to restore service".
What ever happened to the crew annouceing the job number of the train when there is a long delay?? Does the TA still give out transit delay slips? I need the info so I won't be docked time for arriving late due to transit delay. The conductor of my D woulnd't tell me when I detrained....
Oh well....
Just got in a 4th Continental Airlines & don't know if I now have the set of four, so if someone knows, please advise:
-- Work Hard. Fly Right (1/2 globe extends 1 1/4 from LH edge)
-- Want The World? We're Selling Tickets.
-- It's How You'd Run An Airline.
-- Our Priorities Are Simple. They're Yours
Also:
- St. Luke's-Roosevelt vs. BethIsreal (hospitals) ... same graphic image, I thought they were different companies.
- Center Care ... with life expectancy time chart 1650 thru 2000 = New one, graphics goes from B/W to color ... I like it.
Mr t__:^)
November 13th, 1998
Dear Sir/Madam:
Recently I saw todays subway markers' roll signs on some R-32,
R-40s, and R-68 cars, showing that other markers existed. Can you
give me a list of the other colors of other lines between S and Z?
I saw a V and W sign. Someone told me there is also a Y sign. Are
there any others like O, T, U or X? Are these treserved for the 2nd
Avenue Subway , or will be used when the new 63rd Street connection
opens?
James Li
Can anyone tell me what the photography/video policies are on other
city transit systems, such as Chicago, Boston, Baltimore, Washington
DC, NJ Transit, etc.?
Of the cities mentioned, Which ones would I most likely, as well as
least likely run into problems, if I was to take pictures and shoot
videos on their transit systems without inquiring about permission?
Although I've already been to Chicago twice, and have taken countless
pictures of the "L", I'm eventually planning on returning with my
camcorder. I'm also planning to visit Boston, Baltimore, and
Washington DC, to ride, photograph, and shoot videos of their subway/
light rail systems.
Thank you very much for any help and advice on this.
I have tooken numberous pictures of Seattle, and Tacoma, WA's bus sytems and only once encouterd a hostile operator, so bacecally if you dont make a fool out of yourself than you shouldent run into any problems.
http://members.tripod.com/~busdude/index.html
some of my pictures are up there
Tim over here in England, the London Underground allows photography at all public places but flashlight photography is BANNED at all locations especially the deep level lines due to safety risks. As a courtesy you should advise the station supervisor of your intentions and of course you must have a valid ticket as all London Underground lines operate a penalty fare system..no ticket £10 fine.Press and professional photographers are different and must contact London Undergrounds public relations office for permission.
Hope this helps !!
Rob
I just returned from a trip to Beantown (Boston, Mass) where I photographed the famous Green Line trolley system and the Blue, and Red Line subways w/o any problems from their transit personnel.
My experience is that if you look and/or act like a tourist, you can ususally get the okay to take a picture of any equipment wherever you may be.
BMTman
Here in Boston, the MBTA will tell you that photography is "against the rules," and the police will ask you to stop. But if you press them and ask for chapter and verse, they can't tell you what it is. Common sense rules apply -- don't use a flash (that gets them REAL mad), and don't make a spectacle out of yourself. I've never had a problem that way. However if you really want to go at it, you can apply for a photo permit from the MBTA.
For those interested parties
January Schedule Changes for Following Bus Routes
M6,M23,M42,M66,M72,M79,M86,M96,M100,M106,
Bronx--5,6,8,9,10,12,29,31,39
Brooklyn---3,17,20,24,26,35,36,63,71,74,82
Queens=====2,5,17,27,36,44,46,58,83,85,88,
S Island---44/94,,53,,74,78,79,
X1,x27,x28,x29,x32,,x51,,x63,x64,x68,x90.x92
IRT 7
Intro Midday Express, in the Express Service Direction
--January 1999
May 1999 Subway Changes
6 additional trips on the IND E,,evenings bet Man and Queens
5 Additional trips on the IND F,evenings,bet Manh and Queens
2 additional evening peak trips on the BMT N bet Man and Queens
2 additional evening Peak trips on the BMT R bet Manhat and Queens
15 additional round trips on the BMT L on Saturdays
7 additional round trips on the BMT L on Sundays
IND A and IND C Weekend Changes
May 1999
A Trains express between Euclid Av and Hout St
C Trains extended to Euclid Av
World Trade Center Terminal Tracks for IND E
---use BOTH terminal Tracks
X1 and X14 December 1998
Morning Rush Hours
all Buses ===eliminate Battery Place portion
X17 and X31 December 1998
Afternoon Peak Hours
All Buses,,via East 23 st and the SB FDR Drive
Q88 Westbound Reroute
December 1998
All Westbound Buses via Horace Hrding Expressway Service Roads,Right on 94 St,Left on 59 Avenue and Continue on Regular Route
M10 Northbound Service
Winter of 1999
All buses Northbound,,via West St to Spring St
This is for your information only
Steve smokiecat@webtv.net
NYC Fire Department
Just thought I would let anybody know who might have an interest in the Light Rail project planned for the Camden to Trenton line. Well bids were accepted for the project and BECHTEL had the lowest bid at $452 million to build the line plus another $151 million to maintain and operate the line for 10 years. One scarry note is that Bechtel will use ADTRANZ to supply them with the cars. Remeber were still waiting for all the M-4s to be delivered. Also it is the only LRV in the USA to use dissel powered cars. Can anysone tell me why dissel instead of electric? Probably cheaper.
Diesel powered light rail? Aside from not being able to drive around and obstruction on the line, or share the line with other vehicles, how is that better than a bus?
It's cheap, and this contry has some problem with electric trains that i don't understand.
Diesel sucks for RR applications. The only advantage to a diesel light rail I can see in that it has a MUCH lower rolling friction than a bus, so it SHOULD accelerate quicker / use less diesel. Of course, and electric will still beat the crap out of it, and be quieter to boot..
The idea was to use something like the Regio Sprinter and save on the initial electrification costs to keep the project price tag down to some extent. The line could be (and likely would be) converted to electric 20-30 years down the line, when the Sprinters wear out.
Would that make this line cars called LRDC or Light Rail Diesel Car??
I've missed RDC's from the railroads, but I haven't missed them that much 8-)
I've heard them called "diesel LRV's" but not LRDC's. My recollection of the RDC's I rode, Reading's and PRSL's, is that they tended to be noisy and definitely smelly.
For starters, for whatever psychological/etc. reasons, people like riding rail a lot more than busses. I think this has a lot to do with a smoother ride.
Diesel LRVs certainly could be designed to go over 55mph on long stretches without stations. Can't do that anywhere in a bus in South Jersey during rush hour.
Rail also has built in capacity, ie one can couple cars together. Diesel in no way limits this since each car has its own power.
Light rail of any kind improves property values in ways that busses do not. So there must be something.
Really, the only disadvantage is in the slower acceleration, and perhaps the noise, though I bet they'll be quieter than busses.
Oh, and light rail vehicles will last a lot longer than busses, without all the vibration.
Maybe also a more direct route since it's quicker to constuct a
RR right of way in a field than a new highway? ;)
The line will use existing railroad R/W's where possible. This is also supposed to keep costs down.
Will suburban commuters use buses? South Jersey has a very good bus system that NJT has expanded greatly. There are several cross-county lines which tie to the radial lines at malls, hospitals, and PATCO stations. Yet, these buses often roll around empty or close to it much of the time. Why folks won't use them is the same as anywhere else - private cars are too convenient. Of course, PATCO is the success story in this area and NJT has attempted to emulate it with the LRT hybrid alternative offered for South Jersey. Hopefully, it will catch on and relieve some of the gridlock. I'll wait and see.
The really strange thing about the South Jersey Light Rail Line is that back 60+ years ago when Public Service was dumping its streetcar system in favor of ASV's and buses was that they converted several lines to gas-electric streetcar conversions. Didn't last long, as PSNJ converted the Camden lines to 100% bus operations before WWII.
"Those who do not remember the past are condemmed to repeat it."
I think some of the advantages you cite are, in fact, the advantages of a private, grade separated right of way. As stated before, I think busways are a good solution for a mid-density area (ie. Staten Island) especially with fuel cells coming down the pike. Of course, if the rails already exist, its cheaper to use them than to tear them up.
Today's (Friday) Daily News has an article about the TA surplus, and how people have plans to spend it.
Links are provided at the bottom to related articles that ran on Wed. and Thur.
http://www.mostnewyork.com/today/News_and_Views/City_Beat/a-10765.asp
Not many politicians talking about real investments. Perhaps because they don't care what happens when their term ends.
I say they should stop borrowing money. It's not a surplus if you're borrowing money for capital improvements, then promising to pay for it out of the farebox.
I saw the MTA Board NYCT Committee Agenda, which is where the Daily News got some of its figures. The current surplus is not $173 million, as stated in the papers. It's $61 million (nothing to be sneezed at, for sure, but hardly the boon the papers are making it out to be). NYCT had anticipated a $112 million deficit through September but instead had a $61 million surplus; $112 million plus $61 million equals $173 million, but only $61 million of it is surplus. BTW, today's Daily News features suggestions from riders and elected officials as to how to spend the $248 million surplus projected by City Council Speaker Vallone; it totals over $5 BILLION!!!! (Most of it's City Councilman Gifford Miller's suggestion to build the Second Avenue Subway.) Last I checked, there's no way to spend $5 billion of a $248 million surplus that isn't even real.
Well, surplus or no surplus, we need to get 2nd ave line finished off.
That, and maybe a replacement of the manhattan bridge (though that would get fed funding I'd imagine)
I just hope this surplus doesn't go towards Guilani's sucking up to the Yankees...
When you talk about all the money involved in such a large system, any auditor can cook the books to show a surplus or deficit any time he wants to. You can be sure of this: when contact time comes around on 12-15-99, the books will be cooked to show a huge deficit. The TA gets a lot more money up front today with METROCARDS than it ever got with tokens. It was easy to buy a few tokens at a time, but a bigh hassle to buy a METROCARD. The MTA is also getting lots of money up front with this EASY-PASS. I wouldn't buy one on principle alone.
This fake surplus is going on at a much greater rate at the federal level. Thanks to a whopper of a payroll tax increase (on low and middle income workers) in 1982, the social security fund is in surplus, at least for a while. It is loaning that money to the rest of the federal government, but the rest of the federal government doesn't count that as debt (because people my age won't be getting social security anyway), so it says it has a surplus.
As Ross Perot said, if any CEO passed a budget like the federal and state governments do, they throw them in jail. The biggest advantage that the private sector has is that the government controls it, and prevents this sort of stuff. The government has no such advantage.
Using the 'surplus' for capital improvements would do the most long term good for the transit system. But our elected officials have to placate the 'gimme' mentality of the average voter. Here on S.I. the bus driver's union is pushing for a $2.00 x-bus fare. I'd rather see 'surplus' funds fund more coach buses and SIR infrastucture work.
I have a question for my fellow train buffs regarding the R17. As a kid in the 80s, I never kept track of the what cars were operating at what particular time. All I got to enjoy was a car covered with graffiti. Does anybody recall the last time the R17s ran in passanger service? What about the first time they entered service in Redbird Paint? I recall seeing a picture of the R17s in Redbird Paint during a fan trip. Would anyone have the numbers of the R17s that were painted to the Redbird Scheme (supposedly 12 cars were reapinted for service on the 42nd St Shuttle)? I recall a few of these wound up in work service. 6688 wound up at Branford (fortunately) and others such as 6665, 6699 went to scrap. I'm surprised they didn't last as long as the R10s, or for that matter the R30s. As I recall, the R30s survived until 1993 never getting AC even though they were married pairs. It's just a thought, seeing these cars modernized even though they didn't last long. A temporary gap measure I suppose, until overhauled or new cars were in place. Too bad the R21/22 didn't get the same treatment. They went to scrap wearing the splatters of vandalism. The Hi-Vs lasted some 54 years before going to scrap. I feel that you can keep a car running for years provided it gets the proper maintenance (50 years perhaps?).
The AC issue is something that people have always complained about. People can't live without air conditioning, but the reality is that we didn't always have air conditioning. As I tell folks at the Transit Museum, the El Cars of 1903/1907 didn't even have fans; you had to rely on the open window. If you were in a convertible el car, you were quite lucky. Think of it! There wasn't deodorant back then. There some pretty stinky situations.
Perhaps my master numbers guy Wayne Whitehorne (Mr. R40?)or my other source of info Jeff H. can answer the R17 question.
-Constantine
Constantine: www.Railfan.net is posting Joe Testagrose's photos at the rate of 10/day. The postings from 10/19/98 through 11/02/98 contain 128 R17s taken between 1969 and 1979. These may be of some help if the experts don't come through.
Thanks, Marty. Actually what I wanted to know was which cars were selected to be painted into the modern red/silver/black combination of the present time. My understanding of it is that these cars were assigned to the 42nd St Shuttle for years, even before their cosmetic makeover. As I recall, an R17 6677 and an R21, 7075 were painted green. There weren't that many green cars around. Was red more appealing? Perhaps. I don't see any green cars today. The only exception to the rule was the R10. I wonder why the R10 wasn't painted red. Wouldn't that have made for a strange sight.....
-Constantine
Six R-10s were painted red in 1962. Their numbers are posted elsewhere on this website.
The R-17s were single cars, NOT married pairs. Their farewell tour was in early 1987. Two survive: 6688 at Shoreline in Redbird red, and 6609 at the transit Museum in its original maroon livery. I understand that the R-17s which were painted Redbird red were sent to the Flushing line to fill in for the single R-33s while they were being rebuilt.
Except for the WF R-33s, none of the other IRT single cars were rebuilt.
(By the way, Joe's subway shots are loaded into the www.nycsubway.org collection by car type. I usually do uploads of his new stuff every couple weeks. http://abpr.railfan.net/ has the daily archive though.)
I remember seeing the R17 as late as 1984, on the #4 line. Toward the latter years of their lives, they were found only on the #1, #4 and #6 lines, If I remember correctly:
#6500 series were on the #1 line
#6600 and #6700 were on the #4 line
#6800 series were on the #6 line
Original livery was olive green (same as the R16, which are their cousins), then they were dark, dark charcoal grey. Next color I remember seeing them in was the grey/blue scheme. Then the graffitti came. The last time I saw a train of R17 they were dirty white.
The interiors were beige, the doors were chocolate brown.
#6720, #6716, #6734, #6712, #6685, #6707, #6738, #6796, #6748, #6718
according to my notebook from March of 1984.
I do not recall seeing any of them painted red; this is not to say that some of them were. They probably went to scrap about 1985 or 1986, at the tender age of 31 years. Far too short a life for a subway car.
Wayne
Thank You Wayne L. However, some cars managed to break out of the graffiti grunge particularly 6665, 6688, 6699, 6677(green), 7075 (green). Let us not forget that the R10s were painted in green too. Green wasn't so bad I think.
P.S. Go get a tee shirt at the Transit Museum. It has your favorite station mosaics....
-Constantine
Say Constantine:
What do you think of David's photo of 6556 in the R17 Roster section. It's dated 6/28/64. Doesn't that look like a faded RedBird paint scheme. I know that a group of R17s went to the Flushing Line early in their lifes. Did they get the black roofs then, or are we being tricked by an earlier color showing through?
The photo you are referring to was a picture of the R17 in its original paint scheme of 1955. R17s were maroon, while all other cars up to the R30 were olive green. This car 6556, looked awfully grungy. It got half of a wash. It also received fake destination signs. Apparently the R17s didn't have signs for Flushing. Black roofs weren't applied to the any car until the 1980s.
-Constantine
Some 40-50 R-17s were sent to the Flushing line in the early 60s before the R-36s arrived. There are photos in Gotham Turnstiles taken on the #7 in 1963. The R-12s and R-14s were still running in solid trains; the R-17s were mixed in with R-15s.
You would have thought that all postwar IRT cars had route signs for all lines. Maybe they figured the R-17s were ordered for the mainline routes and that Flushing signs wouldn't be needed. On the other hand, the R-36s had signs for all routes, which came in handy for those cars which spent time on the mainlines.
Yeah Steve! I couldn't understand why R17s didn't mix with the R12/14s or for that matter why all car classes didn't mix together on the Flushing line. When the R12/14/15s got to the mainline IRT in 1964, they were mixed with everything else. As for the signage issue, the cars should have had all of their signs. The TA never envisioned sending the R17s to Flushing because they had been spending their time on the Pelham Line. Interestingly enough, R33 married pairs were sent over to help out during the time new R36s were coming in..... These car had their signs, right? R33s in the 1990s are still relied on as substitute for R36s on the 7.
Also, R12s/14s had Astoria signs which are rather unique. 8 to Ditmars? I don't believe R12/14s ever ran to Astoria before the line became BMT in 1949. 5760 at the Transit Museum still has the old signs.
-Constantine
#8 was apparently reserved for the Astoria line, which was also the BMT designation. No trains on either division ever displayed this number.
The explanation I got (which may or may not be correct) concerning the R-12s and R14s is that once they went to the mainline routes, the powers that be didn't want conductors to have to move in and out of the cars to work the trigger boxes. That's why these cars never ran in solid trains on the mainlines and were not located at the conductor's station. They did run in solid 4-car consists on the 3rd Ave. el and were marked, "Shuttle". The R-15s had their door controls in the cabs, yet they, too, never seemed to run in solid trains on the mainlines, either. To me, seeing one or two R-12/14s in a 10-car train made them stick out like sore thumbs. Personally, I prefer seeing solid trains.
Except for the R-11s, all cars from the R-10s thru the R-42s could run together. I had been under the impression that the door controls on the R-12s and R-14s were modified to allow them to m. u. with other cars, since they resembled the R-10s so much, but this was not the case. The R-12s had electric door engines, while the R-10s had pneumatic engines.
Speaking of the R-17s, I never saw them in solid trains except on the 42nd St. shuttle. Come to think of it, I didn't see solid trains of anything on the mainlines until the Redbirds emerged from rebuilding, and then there would be trains of 10 consecutively numbered cars!
I do remember some of the painted red. 6688's red paint was done by the TA. Just before they were scrapped, the TA did a major overhaul on the single car R33's (Corona). Some R17's were painted red and snuck into the train consists there while the 33's were away. 6688 was one of them.
We ran this story here on WCBS Newsradio-88 this morning at 11:06 a.m:
They can't add hours to your day, but you may get a 27-hour MetroCard, just in time for some New Year's Eve celebrating.
Governor Pataki calls for the transit proposal the one day "Fun Pass" for Big Apple tourists, it allows them to get around town after midnight on the same MetroCard they bought the day before... for four dollars.
As for MTA officials, they say they have heard nothing about the 27-hour MetroCard.
-Todd Glickman for CBS News, New York.
I have been waiting ages for the all day (and night?!) Metrocard to come out, and finally I hope they get together and get it out to us. Making it available past 12:00 AM is a great idea for all of us late-nite partyers!
Re: 27 hour MC ...
If you listen carefuly you can hear a grumbling sound comming the South (Tullahome, Tenn). The Cubic folks just love it when George comes up with these ideas.
P.S. Some of them may have their ears on ... I've been telling a few of them in NYC & Tenn what a great site this is & how they might benifit from just listening in !
Mr t__:^)
Didn't some years ago the TA or whomever allow free subway's on New Years Eve??
Was it only after midnight for a few hours or something.
Here in Chicago, the CTA has a one-penny fare on New Year's Eve and early New Year's Day, for the obvious purpose of discouraging drunk driving. It starts in the evening (9 pm?) of 12/31 and ends the morning of 1/1 (7 am?) -- I don't recall the exact times.
Free New Year's eve service on the MBTA has been a tradition here in Boston for years. I've been unable to take advantage of it, however, as every New Year's evening for nearly 20 years I've been fast asleep in midtown Manhattan... and waking up on New Year's morning to deliver my favorite weather line on the radio: "Today we'll have blowing and drifting confetti!"
Yes, I believe this to be true, although it may quite possibly be one of those giant rumors!
Can anyone help with this question; it's one I've been interested in for some time.
I think this practice should begin again. Let's see if the MTA can get their party spirits back again! Hey, you've got a pretty big surplus anyway, so what's one night gonna do to the revenue???
Last New Year's Eve coming back from Times Square on the subway was the best part of the evening with all the drunk guys on the train!!!
Adam,
I remember the MTA doing this at least once during the last ten years. I can't remember which year, but I do remember that they discontinued the practice. Why, I don't remember. In any case, it was well before the advent of Metrocards.
Bob Sklar
Have there been any plans to connect the nyc subway system with
the staten island railroad by building tubes connecting lower manhattan or brooklyn..
In the 1920's a tunnel under the Narrows was actually begun, designed to connect the BMT 4th Ave. Line to the Staten Island Rapid Transit (SIRT). As part of the plan, the SIRT electrified its lines with a third rail and 67' cars compatible with the BMT. NYC Mayor John Hylan, and long time BMT enemy, and NY Governor Al Smith both secretly killed the project before the tunnel had progressed very far.
Thirty years later, when the Verrazano Narrows Bridge was planned, Robert Moses, the head of Triborough Bridge and Tunnel Authority (the VZ Bridge parent agency) refused to allow any transit tracks on the bridge, effectively removing any hope for rail transit between Staten Island and the other four boroughs.
i am a student doing a project about the subject .
i was very intrested in the information that you had on the link.
i would like to know if you have the location of the tunnel and how far did they get with it.
hope to hear from you soon
alon
The Transit Museaum in Brooklyn has information on the topic. Visiting the Transit Museaum is also a fun way to spend the afternoon.
I need some pics of chinatown NY....and Flushing NY for my website. if anyone can find it for me..please sent it to me e-mail....thanks for your time
When the first wave of 67-foot cars were being scrapped
in the early 1960's, wasn't car #2321 shipped to Florida
to be used as a restaurant ?
Can someone confirm this and update on the cars' disposition ?
In culling my collection, I am happy to make the following available. They are all in good condition. Lucky purchaser will not have to assume P & H. Cost is all in.
1) Coliseum Depot Front Sign, Red/Blue version. $50
2) Crosstown Depot Front Sign, Red/Blue version. $40
3) R44 Side sign, with strip maps. This is the original equipment, with the bar-codes, Route in the middle and destinations on either side (platform side). There are readings for the A, AA, B, CC, & D. Readings include the Rockaway loop, D from Bedford Park. There are probably 12-15 readings all told. THIS IS NOT A COMPLETE ROLL, but probably missing very little. $40.
4) Side dest. sign from R12-14. Readings include Polo Grounds and 167th St-Jerome. $10.
Reply to my e-mail address "oldschool58@yahoo.com". FCFS
Does anyone remember an animation sequence that occured within the tunnels of the d-line once the trains left the Dekalb Avenue station?
It was there in the 80's. One sequence was of a rocket going into the sky. Any recollections on this would help, especially if someone can tell me who painted the animation. Thanks for helping my research project.
Could this be the "artistic endeavor" now sitting
in ruins on the abandoned Myrtle Avenue station platform
(seen from the right side of the train, after leaving
DeKalb Avenue, but before the "Y"-switch which,
when negotiated at high speed, throws passengers
against the left side of the car) ?
>>"Y"-switch which, when negotiated at high speed, throws passengers
against the left side of the car) ? <<
Hi Speed??
Your kidding right??
Even when there's an General Order on the weekend and the B ain't running, the D hasn't taken that interlocking at speed in years...
One night about 6 years ago, It did take that switch fast, and it was quite a jolt. I was pretty surprised and thought we were lucky we didn't derail.
I remember as a child around the early 80's the same you are describing. I remember my family and I for some reason where going to Brooklyn one night. As my brother and I were looking out of the train windows we saw what we called a cartoon in a tunnel in Brooklyn. I'm not to sure where exactly this place was but it was right after we arrived in Brooklyn. I wrote to this bulletin board once before and someone pointed out to me it was the abandoned Myrtle Ave. train station. The train could have been either the D or F or whatever other train went past the "cartoon tunnel" coming from the 47-50 Rockefeller Ctre Station at that time in the early 80's. One other thing back in high school about 8 years ago my friends and got into a conversation about the subway. I mentioned to him about this animation. From what he told me there used to be a movie theatre above this station where the people were able to go straight from the theatre to the subway station. He told me that this movie theatre had burned down. Can anyone clarify this about the movie theatre?
This animation sequence was at the old Myrtle Ave. station Manhattan Bridge bound. I believe art students from Brooklyn Poly were given permission to put it there. It was visible from whatever train via bridge stopped at DeKalb (not the F). BTW: around 1960 when DeKalb was reconstructed, that Myrtle Ave. station was closed, the side from the bridge was demolished to reconfigure switches.
Does anybody have information about NYCTA's present and future assignments of articulated buses? They are now running on Bronx routes 1, 2, 12 and 55. They were also tried out on other lines, including the 41. Are there any in service in other boroughs? According to a TA handout, more articulateds are on order. Has any decision been made about which routes will get them next?
At this thime they New Flyer Artics (D-60) still show up on the BX41 at times. I don't know for sure where the next buses will be assigned, but if I had to guess. I'm sure many (or all) of them will go to the Brooklyn bus division on routes such as the B41 and probably other routes that operate out of Flatbush depot. In Manhattan, I could see them being assigned to the M15 route also. These are only me guessing. Maybe some of our fellow SubTalkers has the info.
Wayne
Currently, articulated buses run on the following bus lines of the
MTA New York City Transit: Bx1 and Bx2, Bx55 (the bus line that has
existed ever since the Third Avenue EL was dismantled back in 1973,
I believe). I do not usually see those buses on the Bx41, but they
tend to be prominently featured on the Bx12.
Ccording to the roster at http://members.aol.com/Glenn6398/index3.html, the artics operate out of Gun Hill Depot exclusively on the Bx12, and out of Kingsbridge Depot on the Bx1, Bx2, Bx55; with any extras available running on th Bx41.
-Hank
The articulates are next slated for Flatbush depot. I mechanic told me that maintainence equipment is being installed there for the articulated buses. Also when the M100's where out of KB some morning runs were assigned artic's. I read in the newspaper several months ago that Department of Buses increased there purchase of artics because of the success of their operation with some being slated for Manhattan service in the future but the article did not state where.
I am sending you something,,in a seperate mailing
Steve
Liberty Lines (the Bee Line) in Westchester also has articulateds. They come down this way, so you're likly to see them too.
Mr t__:^)
The Bee-Line articulateds are M.A.N. (German manufacturer) and they are getting pretty old now - Of course you can't tell by their appearance as, Bee-Line equipment is always in excellent condition. They were delivered around 1982/3. I've heard that they are well liked and they rec'd an overhaul in the early 1990's and roof mounted A/C units were added. There are 61 of them and they regularly operate into the Bronx on routes 60,61, 20 and 20X. Years ago, during a Metro North strike these buses (and other Bee-Line local buses) operated into Manhattan during peak hours.
Wayne, Thanks for the detail !
If you have the "Mega NY Area Bus Mega Calendar" you can find photos:
- 1996 = #621 on the July 14th page.
- 1997 = #661, in Playland wrap, on the May 4th page.
- 1998 = A NJT Volvo #9126, on the Dec 20th page.
- 1998 And last but not least a TA, on the pack cover.
Liberty (Bee Line) is one of the seven "privates". I don't know if that relates to only Bronx routes 60, 61, & 20. I had assumed, from the way they've have talked in meetings, that they provided Express service to NYCDOT (Guess I should have asked, because you know what happens when you assume !)
Mr t__:^)
Mr. T,
I don't have the calendar - do you have info. on obtaining it??? I realize that Liberty Lines is a DOT private, but I always thought their operations were a bit unique from the other privates. Please correct me if I'm incorrect, but here's the way I thought it was:
Liberty Lines Express (Bronx-Manhattan expresses) are NYCDOT expresses. Bee-Line (Westchester and Westchester/Bronx) local routes were funded by Westchester County, Hence their Westchester County paint scheme. The BXM4C/D Westchester-Manhattan Express also part of Westchester Bee-Line, as it only passes through the Bronx, between Yonkers and Manhattan. When Bee-Line started operating the BXM4C/D in the early 1980's it was my belief that some special arrangement was worked out between Westchester County/Liberty Lines/NYCDOT because this route used regular Liberty Lines buses until their MCI's were delivered. Before the MCI's were delivered, the GM fishbowls assigned to BXM4C service had a letter "L" added to the fleet number. ex: L-1523.
Wayne
The "NY Area Bus Mega Calendar" is avail. from TSI Calendars -
PO Box 123 - Merrick, NY 11566 at $24.95 + $5 UPS shipping.
It appears that 1996 thru 1999 are available. They also adv a Commuter Rail Calendar, but I haven't seen it. I know one of the photographers of the bus calendar, so I'll ask to see what it looks like. They also, apparently, were Traction fans untill 1987.
The price is a little stiff, but it incl. a lot of photos since the calendar only displays a week at a time.
Disclaimer: I don't sell these or receive any type of consideration for same & am posting ONLY because someone asked.
P.S. My first two issues were Christmas gifts, it hooked me on this and the subway calendar (I already have my 1999 edition), which is published by another group.
Mr t__:^)
I hope these articulated buses are something other than Grumman Flxibles! Does anyone recall that both LA and New York purchased those buses, probably during the late 70's, and both had to either return or otherwise disposes of them due to cracks developing in the undercarriages.
Any info? By the way, is Grumman still in the bus business?
Bob Sklar
Nah Grumann is out of the bus business....These new buses will come from either New Flyer, Orion or Nova.
Look out for the new hybrid bus...It will be the wave of the future, runs on diesel-electric.
Re: Grumman's "Flxible"
1. Flxible was bought by Grumman (easrly 80's), sold to Flxible Corp. who made the Flex Metro 82 - 95, & got out of business '97.
2. Many of the NYC Flxibles ended up at NJT & LI Bus, where some still ply their routes. LI Bus is down to about a half dozen, NJT has more.
3. The "frame" cracks were by a sub-contractor, but Grumman took the heat for it. Recently some of the old RTS's were found to have corrosion problems in the frame area.
Mr t__:^)
NJ Transit will soon be drastically reducing their number of Grummans starting in April pending delivery of new Nova's (don't know what kind-- probably more RTS's).
I got an R32 on the A this morning, about 10:07am southbound from 34th St-Penn Station.
#3404-3405, #3510-3511, #3876-3877, #3891/#3520 (odd couple) and #3654-3655 were the unit numbers.
Just curious whether this is an oddity or another shift in equipment.
BTW - the new tile is up at Chambers Street. The job is not quite finished yet - they have detail work to do plus they have to do the cutout panels around the signals - you can still see the old tile in these spots. Slightly different shade of purple than that at the terminal platform - a little more like the original. The terminal platform wall tile is more of a blue-violet.
And those EYES! They're everywhere, watching you.
Wayne
Those are former Jamaica Cars moved last week to Pitkin/207th St. for A line service. The move is 'permanent' in that Pitkinwill be maintaining the cars. In addition - 4 R-68s were moved from Coneyt Island to Concourse. More moves coming......
Those are former Jamaica Cars moved last week to Pitkin/207th St. for A line service. The move is 'permanent' in that Pitkinwill be maintaining the cars. In addition - 4 R-68s were moved from Coney Island to Concourse. More moves coming......
Probably just cars for C service that find themselves on the A. It happens all the time, and they even get mixed with the R-38's and GE 32's.
Funny you mention that - according to my R32 Census list (I write the line I spot them on next to the unit numbers) all but the Odd Couple spotted in that "A" consist today were originally spotted as "C"s.
They could have switched over to "E" then back to "C" and now are "A".
Any more moves please pass 'em along and I'll keep my Census list etc.
current.
Thankx
Wayne
Speaking of the R-32s:
Where is #3348 camped out these days? I looked for it last month while in the city, but didn't spot it. I did see 3350-3351 on an E train. (And I usually don't pay much attention to car numbers, although I have seen the R-42s used in The French Connection - 4572-4573.)
Which numbers are the GE units? I know what they look like; their bulkheads still have the outlines where the roll signs and marker lights used to be, but haven't seen them.
#3348 was spotted Sunday Nov 15 1998 at about 10:40AM (with his/her mate #3549 in tow) smack in the middle of an E train into and out of Chambers Street-WTC terminal. The Oddest Couple has also been spotted on the R back on the morning of Sept 19 1998.
The R32GE Unit Numbers:
3594-3595
3880-3881
3892-3893
3936-3937
3934-3935 These two are used for parts.
I'll have to check out their bulkheads next time I spot one. I'm not sure if they have the rubber outlines (like the R38 does) or are plain square signs (like the rest of the R32). When I find out I'll post it.
The R32GE looks exactly like the R38 inside - backlit signs, curly bars, cage bars around the car end seats etc.
Wayne
And, as I understand, the GE R-32s are usually coupled with R-38s.
Yes, absolutely. Since there are only eight R32GE operable, they would have to mate up with either another R32 pair or an R38 pair in order to make up an "A" train - the eight by themselves can make up a "C".
Sunday's little development (seeing a Non-GE R32 on the "A") - you may indeed see the R32GE with another pair of R32 filling out the consist-
I'll keep my eyes open for them.
Wayne
There's one catch: I'm out in Colorado.
Anyway, that particular A train I rode on had non-GE R-32s with the smooth bulkheads around those illegible pixel signs. Even that's not such a big deal in Manhattan with the A, since the D uses (ugh!) R-68s. It's when you're waiting for an uptown local and have to distinguish a C from an E that things get dicey.
I'd still like to see the R-32s back on the D, if not the A. They made quite an impression when they first appeared on the D back in late 1967 - at least to me, anyway.
BTW, did the slants ever run on the D? I remember seeing R-40Ms mixed in with R-42s on D trains in 1984-85.
No, I don't believe there were ever slant R40s on the D.
The only lines that I ever remember seeing Slant R40s on were:
A (their second home)
AA (occasionally, when they were on the "A")
B (their third home)
E (their first home)
F (also their first home)
L (48 of them live here now)
N (a current part-time home)
Q (their current home)
S (when it was the Aqueduct Special)
Wayne
)mr SlantR40(
Yes there were! Beginning in 1983, 2 of them spilled over from the B. I used to see them layed up beyond Brighton Beach when I got out of school, and sometimes they would begin their run then. I didn't ride the line for the next 2 years, but then when the Bridge closed, they were all assigned to Coney Island and a bunch of them did run on that part of the D, and then spilled onto the Q and even R, until the D got all the new cars, and the N and R switched. They were then rebuilt and ran mostly on the B, and then from time to time appeared on the N and Q. In early '92, there was a series of reroutes with a D shuttle from Prospect to Coney Island that used some slant 40's, but mostly 42's.
Thanks for the information! I wasn't doing that much travelling in that part of Brooklyn back then, so I missed that. I never saw them on the "R" either, but with all the temporary moves they've made over time, chances are that a few wound up there.
Also - I think there's a picture in the R40 archives showing one in service on the "CC", back in the late 70s or early 80s (when they were mainly on the "A") - shows it along the Rockaway Park part of the FR branch. What I had posted was purely my own sightings; sorry for the confusion.
Wayne
Unrebuilt slants were occassionally ran on the CC in the spring of 1981. I remember that perfectly, as I was switching in Concourse Yard at the time and on a few rare occassions one would show up there. That was during the time when us new motormen spent time working in the yards, but no more! During one of the Manhattan Bridge closures (1984?) when the B to Astoria ran 8 cars and the R was still going up there, both lines were still laying up trains in Astoria middle at the time. The trains wouldn't come out in the same order they went in, so sometimes a R would become a B & vice versa. Hence an R40 slant winding up on the R.
I t's Train Operator,not motorman.
Let me say this publically for all those here in Cyberville: When I got the promotion, they promoted me to MOTORMAN. It was changed to be geneticaly correct when females got promoted in large numbers. It should have been left as MOTORMAN. Because the letters "M A N" are also in WOMAN. TRAIN OPERATOR takes something away from the responsibilities, but those have never changed, maybe even got increased. We do lots more than move the train. We troubleshoot; we get on the roadbed and get our hands greasy when we move & secure drawheads (with one exception); we don't walk on the train from a platform: we have to find it sometimes in the bowels of the system. We get up-close-and-personal with the subway rats on occassion! We do things we aren't required to do, but do it anyway "for the good of the service". Any body can "operate" a train, but it takes a certain amount of smarts to be a real MOTORMAN. A rookie TRAIN OPERATOR must earn his MOTORMAN title, like when the babies in the wild have to start hunting for their own food for the first time.
I am no rookie. 5 years doesn't qualify as being a rookie.At the end of your post,you undeniably state that "A rookie Train Operator must earn his Motorman title".So in fact you we're at some point a Train Operator until you built up your seniority and became a motorman.GOTCHA HA HA HA HA HA HA.Inconsistincies in your statements. I rest my case.
PLEASE GIVE SOME INFOMATION ABOUT THE TRAINING OF TRAIN OPERATORS, WHERE ITS DONE IN NYC , HOW LONG AND THE PAY SCALE.ALSO IS THERE A DIFFERENT TRAINING FOR IRT BMT. THANKS ,JIM
Last month, I rode an A train out to Lefferts Blvd. consisting of eight R-32s and two R-38s. That marked the first time I've seen R-32s on the A since around 1969. You won't get any complaints from me, though; I wouldn't mind seeing A service provided exclusively by R-32s and R-38s.
That mixed consist would probably have been the R32GE, as there are only eight of them (R32GE) in service: 3594-5, 3880-1, 3892-3, 3936-7
with 3934-5 for parts. The train is usually capped off with an R38, last one I saw was 3968-9. The one I saw Sunday was ten regular (non-GE) R32's. Needless to say, I was quite surprised to see it.
Wayne
Lately, I have seen the destination signs on N trains stating that they end up in Bay Parkway, Brighton Beach, or other odd locations. Is this a mistake and what is going on???
ALL N trains to Bay Pkwy all weekend due to a General Order.
Bill,
Thanks for the quick response. Any idea why they issued this "General Order"? Was there work being done on the tracks from Bay PArkway to Coney Island?
N Trains have been running on the West End during the weekends to Bay Parkway. Manhattan bound trains are even running on the express track.
They are doing switch work near 8th Ave. station.
Which Bay Parkway station is being used as the N terminal, West End or Sea Beach? (I'm excluding Culver, because that would look too much like the old Coney Island Express service from Chambers to Franklin. 8-) )
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Went to Chambers Street/WTC this morning to check out the new tile they've installed there. Here's my review:
* The job isn't quite finished yet; it will look a lot better once they fill in the niches and seams between the panels. The cutout panels around the signals aren't up yet either, so some of the old tile is still showing. All the plaques aren't up yet either, speaking of which...
* There are TOO MANY plaques although the lettering is dead-on original IND typeface. Nice touch. They would have been better off
doing like they did at Broadway-Lafayette, putting a plaque on every other panel.
* The two station locations actually seem to have different color tile bands - the "E" platform is darker and more bluish; the "A" platform is very close to the original shade - the reddish cast to the purple shows up nicely under the station lighting.
* They will probably clean it up once everything is done - there's quite a bit of dust etc. on the new tile.
All in all I give it a "B".
By the way - whose "eye"-dea was it to put up dozens (if not hundreds) of mosaic eyes in the station mezzanine and corridors, even on the backs of the staircases (on the "E" platform)? It is a novel concept for sure, but a wee bit disconcerting considering just how many of them there are. The one at the head of the exit stairs, NE corner of Park & Church certainly qualifies as an "evil eye". I'll post the picture of that one when I gets it developed.
Wayne
There was much discussion about this a few weeks ago about NYCT buses on the New Jersey Turnpike in the morning. According to my latest Staten Island Bus Map from Sept. 1996, during the AM rush, all X31's (operates to 57 St/ 3 Ave. between 5:55 AM to 7:50 AM every 15 minutes) and 4 trips of the X17 from Woodrow Road/Hugenot Ave. to 57 St./3 Ave. at 6:10, 6:40, 7:00, & 7:25, all operate over the Goethels Br. thru New Jersey. Presumably, they would then pick up the NJT to Route 3 to the Lincoln Tunnel, then go crosstown. The pool of buses used then were local buses converted to express: 4873 to 4888. Since these buses are crossing state lines, they need a sticker on the windshield, something these buses had. Presumably now, with MCI's coming in, some of these would need stickers to be used on service via the New Jersey Turnpike.
When the srvice originated, it used some of the 'converted' RTS. A few months later, new RTS were used on these runs. With the MCIs having arrived (and being parked on the street because the depot is overcrowded) most of the NJ trips are with the MCIs. Most of the older RTS are no longer running in x-bus service, but all the new RTS, and the original 100-series Orions are still there. My main question is, what are they going to do with all those extra buses?
-Hank
As Staten Island is to become all MCI's and Orions, the extras that aren't old enough to be scrapped will be shifted to Brooklyn, replacing older stuff there.
Some of the 37xx and 38xx RTS buses are being used on the S76, S78, and S79. It looks like they are going to be in local service until the next batch of new local buses arrives in 1999.
I've yet to get a MCI on the X6 :-(
Still getting RTS's without the convert job too.
Wife got a MCI but she took the X1 from 57th since for over an hour no X6's showed up on Friday, 2.5 hours to get to South Shore....
I told her to walk over to the X5 next time. But that's it for our Express bus trips until 25th (day before Turkey) I am not looking foward to that.
What a guy !!!! Rides on the surface then goes down stairs to work !
Mr t__:^)
I know a bunch of 1984 and 1985 GMC RTS were converted for express service, but I thought that 4873-4888 were delivered as express buses.
Hi...
When I was around 10 and living in the Cincinnati area, (about '58), we'd pass some concrete structures on the way into the downtown area that I was told was the remenants of a subway system that never saw daylight --ok, bad pun :)-- a subway system that was never completed. Would anyone have any leads as to where I can find information on this? I've searched the Web under various keywords and have not come up with anything.
Any leads are much appreciated!
Ron
The most complete account I know of is a chapter in Cincinnati Streetcars No.7 by Richard M Wagner & Roy J Wright ISBN 0-914196-27-8 Publisher Trolley Talk 59 Euclid Ave. Wyoming OH 45215 (from my copy)
The basic story very like 2nd Ave NY project halted because of lack of funds during a period of intense political lameness--then sealed up and unused save for a water main installed through part of the tunnel some years back. All ready for Martian archaeologists to write imaginative dissertations.
Here's another book you might want to try:
The Cincinnati subway: exploring the subterranean queen city.;
Relevancy: 83; Focus; Simpson, Louis; 06-22-1994; Size: 15K; Reading Level: 8.
You're not the only one who's looking. I found this at www.trolleycars.com
Email John and see if he's found anything.
I'm attempting to locate any information on trolley subways in the US, both abandoned and in use....The Cincinnati
subway, built and never used, is my first project...Any assistance or direction would be appreciated..........
Thanks
John Walter Thomas
TrolleyJWT
John Walter Thomas
USA - Monday, June 02, 1997 at 19:42:24 (EDT)
You could also try this issue of FOCUS:
The American Geographical society's
<< FOCUS >>
SUMMER 1994 VOL.44, NO.2
IN THIS ISSUE
IMM.IUMI,
The Cincinnati Subway
Louis Simpson 13
Josh and David- thanks for your help!
I had to get to Delancy Street on Saturday and I live along the J route. Now i knew the bridge was closed to all subway traffic but i didnt know it was this bad!
Why dont they just have a friggin shuttle bus over the bridge!
Just to get to Delancy I had to take a train, then another train then a bus then another train then another train.
Took bout 2 hours to get someplace that usually take at least a half hour!!!!!!
By the way comeing back was even worst! The M shuttle was discharged which meant more waiting!!!!!!!!
Why do they do this to weekend riders
Isnt there an easier way to do this!!!!!!!!!!
I would rather have any type of construction be done during the off-peak times like between rush hours and definitely on weekends. I don't think it's an issue of why "they" do it riders on weekends. Point blank; it's just the best times to do any construction whether onsubway lines or roadways. Expect to see thi for an additional three weekends more and most likely a full closure of the bridge in late spring.
-GarfieldA
i understand that they need to make neccary repairs and that the weekend is the best time. But they should at least provide us with better shuttle service so we, the passengers who depend on mass transit can at least travel on the weekends.
Oh and trust me im not lookin foward to next year when they shut the bridge down on weekdays. This means i have to take the slow and already crowded L train.
I rode that train for 20 years i was happy to see my commute on that slow train end but it will start all over again soon
I don't know that off-peak is the best time on the roads, or even on the transit lines. I much prefer what they did in Harlem -- and what they plan to do on the Williamsburg Bridge -- an all-out effort to do the job as fast as possible by working all the time without spending time and money to maintain service. But, as Transtech said, more effort has to be made to help people find alternatives.
As a "good envirnomentalist" who only drives off-peak for recreational purposes, I sometimes get a little ticked when I hit construction delays so that rush hour drivers can be insulated from them, fairly or not.
But TransTech's point was a good one ... why WASN'T there a shuttle bus between Marcy Ave and Delancy Street? Wouldn't that be a good thing to do? A longer but more direct ride? And not much of a detour either - Williamsburgh Bridge Plaza is right there at Marcy Ave ....
--Mark
According to the Subway Service and Diversions page on the Web, there was...
This is a summary of what's happening:
Major repair work on the bridge means J trains will run only between Jamaica Center and Broadway-Myrtle Av. A special J shuttle train will run between the Broadway-Myrtle Av and Hewes St stations. No trains will stop at the Marcy Av station. A special shuttle bus will run between the Hewes St and Bedford Av L stations, with a stop at the Marcy Av station. There will be more frequent weekend L service, 6 AM to 10 PM Saturdays and 10 AM to 6 PM Sundays.
More frequent B39 bus service will connect the Marcy Av J station with the Delancey St F station via the Williamsburg Bridge. Transfers between the shuttle bus and the Hewes St and Bedford Av stations and the B39 are free. Ask for a paper transfer when leaving the train, shuttle bus or the B39, so you can continue your trip without
paying additional fares.
They can't run shuttle buses because two lanes are closed too.
Just wait until April when train service is completely stopped for nine months!!!!
OI-VEY!!!
Of course, you could take a G down to Bergen or Carroll, and transfer to a Manhattan-bound F for Delancey St. The downside is that it would be more time-consuming. Now, if only the G could enter Manhattan via the F line...
As I understand it this work is being done to enable trains to turn at Marcy Av. when the big project goes forward. For this work, the TA is limited in what they can do on the inner end of Broadway. That's why the diversion is being focused onto the L & M lines. Of course the perfect diversion route was torn down in 1950 (Lexington Av. Brooklyn Line which could have funneled J riders to downtown Brooklyn where there are a plethora of subway connections) and the inner part of the Myrtle Av. line which combined with the above (gone since 1969) would have taken care of the M riders and the rest of the J. As the song goes "Don't it always seem to go - that you don't know what you got til it's gone."
Hopefully, when the real work starts, there will be a bus cavalcade to fill the gap between Marcy and Delancy (or a ferry) (oops the spur to the old ferry dock is gone too :( )
They're replacing the switches (which has also knocked out all weekday express service), but WHY? The switches were used everyday for the expresses to cross over, and for layups in the middle, and were not too long ago rebuilt, I think. Why couldn't the old ones handle the terminal switching?
The switches weren't replaced recently. What was done recently was new tracks were installed in the middle at Marcy ave.
Does anyone have detailed info on the SHUTTLES running --in both directions
thank you
STEVE
When I say "recently", I meant in the last several years. Sone switches were added (I guess that's what I was thinking about), because before, it was not possible to cross over from one local track to the other. That's why the closure 10 years ago had a more complicated reroute, involving singletracking from Myrtle to Marcy. So I assumed when they added switches, they rebuilt the existing ones that are now being replaced
According to the Subway Service and Diversions page on the Web, there was (sort of)...
This is a summary of what's happening:
Major repair work on the bridge means J trains will run only between Jamaica Center and Broadway-Myrtle Av. A special J shuttle train will run between the Broadway-Myrtle Av and Hewes St stations. No trains will stop at the Marcy Av station. A special shuttle bus will run between the Hewes St and Bedford Av L stations, with a stop at the Marcy Av station. There will be more frequent weekend L service, 6 AM to 10 PM Saturdays and 10 AM to 6 PM Sundays.
More frequent B39 bus service will connect the Marcy Av J station with the Delancey St F station via the Williamsburg Bridge. Transfers between the shuttle bus and the Hewes St and Bedford Av stations and the B39 are free. Ask for a paper transfer when leaving the train, shuttle bus or the B39, so you can continue your trip without
paying additional fares.
True, it is better to shuttle all passengers over the Willy B via bus. But you need a lot of buses to pick up one train load. There was extra service on the B39. Many times, the traffic is so bad on the WillyB, the passengers will get to Bedford Ave. & Manhattan faster than the bus over the bridge. This may be a practice session for the passengers: Everybody who rides over the bridge can't take the attiuide "I"ll get off at Marcy (come May), and use the bus over to Essex & get back on". The passengers must find a better way by subway. Every station on the J/M/Z & many cars have signs posted of this weekend track work. They were advised to use the A or L. Common sense dictates not to come to Hewes St. unless absolutely necessary. But the average passenger knows how to get somewhere ONE WAY ONLY. Brochures are at all stations. There is no excuse for not knowing. The thing I'm down on the TA is this: Why no lower Manhattan shuttle service from Essex to Chambers??????
The thing I'm down on the TA is this: Why no lower Manhattan shuttle service from Essex to Chambers??????
What would be the point? The only station that you would 'add' to the available stations is Bowery. Every other station that is normally open over the weekend had other service available. And from Essex St, it was EASY service....just take the F the Bway/Lafayette for a downtown 6. The only thing they should have done was prvide a paper transfer from the northbound 6 to the F.
-Hank
Why didn't you just take the B39? They were allowing double free transfers, and they had 2 buses every 5 minutes....
I also don't suppose it would be a bad idea for them to slip some artics down from Gun Hill and Kingsbridge....
-Hank
Haven't seen a report form our Bean Town friend who was doing "Traffic and Weather" this weekend. Todd, too bad if you couldn't catch one this weekend :-(
My daughter, not a transit buff, at least not YET, was waiting for a FA at Stonybrook 8:10 Sat AM. To her surprise a brand new dbl decker pulled. She sat in the upper deck & rode to Jamaica. Sun she returned to school aboard a 5:18 PM & got a lot for her money, if she was a rail fan ... MU elect out of Mineola, dbl decker (she went for the lower deck seat this time) at Hicksville, then a bus from Smithtown for the last few miles AND arrived ahead of schedule (so her friend wasn't there to meet her yet :-(
She says that you guys can send her mail if you want more details on her trip at lmclark@ic.sunysb.edu.
P.S. She also enjoyed hearing Todd's voice on the radio (you know that guy Dad ? Realy ... cool !)
Well Mr. t,
I took a quick jaunt out to Jamaica (via the [E]) on Saturday afternoon, and waited for about an hour. No luck... only the old stuff running during that period.
I have another shift of TRANSIT and WEATHER TOGETHER next Saturday, so maybe I'll have another chance to try it. I was really hoping for a ride on one over the OB line, on which I grew up. By the way, is there consistency regarding the engine on one end and the control cab on the other, or it is mixed operation (east engine sometimes, west other times)?
I'll ask the person who took the trip. It will be interesting to see if she was paying attention to that detail.
Mr t__:^)
[By the way, is there consistency regarding the engine on one end and the control cab on the other, or it is mixed operation (east engine sometimes, west other times)?]
The consist running on the Montak line has the locomotive on the east end. I've seen a couple others with similar arrangements.
The LIRR loves standardization. MUs are always Even-East/Odd-West. When a Cab unit was used, it was virtually always Cab-West/Loco-East. It seems that this will still be the rule with the new equipment.
Just a side note on diesel operation:
An engineer acquaintenance on mine told me that most engineers operated their trains differently going east than they did going west. When going East, with the loco (power) in the lead, they slowed the train primarily using the trainline brake. This was so the train was always stretched. When operating west, they slowed more with the loco (Cab unit) brake. This kept the train 'tight'. This was to make for smoother starts and rides. I wonder if they will use a similar operation with the new equipment.
I remember comming home evnings from my biker lessons the summer I got out of high school, I had to take the train from Mineola -> Northport and back, and comming into Huntington I once watched from the rearmost open car toward the front of the train - all the doors down were open.
You could see (and hear!) the cars bouncing as we went over switches. You'd see one jump, then the next, then the next, toward the back of the train. They sure did make a lot of noise when they did that, especially when braking.
I dunno, in a way, I'm glad to see the old stuff go, but now I'm starting to get nostalgic over them. It would have been nice if the LIRR kept them in better shape over the years.
Question: Do the new cars have the same, super annoying whinning vent system that the MUs have? If there's ONE thing I could change about the electrics, it's that ^&^$**^&%&^* whinning sound you hear constantly from the blowers in the thing.
On the MUs, the AC Compressors are under the car and just the blowers are above. With the new Double-Deckers, the entire HVAC system is in the roof of the car. I'm quite sure it'll be on resilliant mounts to reduce vibration and super-insulated to hold down te noise. However, it is essential that the air constantly be circulated and so I'd expect that the noise will prevail.
Gee, Steve, is that because Long Island slopes downward westbound :-)
The push-pull units here on the MBTA Purple Line in Boston have train air and independent air controls in the locos, but only train air in the control cab units of course. That is why inbound starts/stops (nearly always the cab control operating direction on both the North and South side) are often not as smooth... it can be noticed if someone tells you about it!
Folks—
Hope this isn't a portent of what will happen next year, when the El reconstruction really gets going, but...
SEPTA has been running shuttle buses on the El between 30th and 69th Streets the last two weekends because of work. This morning, they had some kind of problems and haven't been able to fire the power back up. As I write this, it's nearly 9 AM and they're still trying to see where the problem is.
They're apparently doing a very good job of running shuttle buses on the El this morning... but to do this, they had to pull buses off some other routes. So there are BUS (and traffic) delays all over the place.
This isn't going to help them get passengers, that's for sure.
Michael
Yes, I hope this isn't a portend of things to come! I am one of the "double whammy" victims of this - my line lost several buses to the cause, and the Schuylkill was backed up like crazy because of the traffic tie-ups at 30th St.
I was looking over a book on NE Short line RxRs thru 1980 and found a article stuffed inside from the April 1990 issue of Railfan & Railroad about the BSRR (Branford Steam Railroad). It was/is a traprock short line (6.2 miles from Lake Gaillard to Juniper Point - LI Sound).
Anyone know if it still exists, would be just up the road a piece from the Tolley Museum ?
Interesting side note - They called it a steam RxR "to distinguish it from the many electric trolley and rail lines in the area"
Mr t__:^)
Hi-
I'm working at a theatre on the grounds of the West Point Military Academy, and there's a single-track what-appears-to-be-freight line running along the river (this would be the west side of the Hudson) and through West Point. Anyone know from whence it comes, or to where it goes? Or is it one of them "special" government trains?
Thanks,
-K.
that the "river line" it runs north bergen nj to albany ny. it is a very busy line
Isn't the freight line along the west shore of the Hudson the old West Shore? It originally ran from the waterfront opposite Manhattan up the west shore and then along the south shore of the Mohawk River.
Ed Alfonsin/SUNY at Potsdam
Yes it was/is. Metro-North / NJT are studying the possible return of passenger service from Havestraw.
Also, this line is pretty busy. Freight by rail to NYC uses this line to cross the Hudeion at Selkirk, NY (!!) before coming back south along the former NY Central tracks on the east side of the river.
--Mark
Yes it was/is. Metro-North / NJT are studying the possible return of passenger service from Havestraw.
Also, this line is pretty busy. Freight by rail to NYC uses this line to cross the Hudson at Selkirk, NY (!!) before coming back south along the former NY Central tracks on the east side of the river.
--Mark
Well, it's starting.
The Market-Frankford El is geeting re-adjusted for the M-4's.
Over the past two weekends the el has been shut down from 30th St. to 69th. All trains terminated at 30th and made the switch at the infamous loudmouth that was involved in the '90 derailment. Folks had to take a shuttle bus for trips west.
The shutdown was to allow workers to redo the third rails so that they could meet the new power needs of the M-4's. Why when they're going to begin tearing it down in January?
And more rail news, R6 work is nearly done. Welded rail is being installed, no concrete ties though.
Next project, now that we have the RNC convention in 2000(sorry, NYC) willwe begin cleaning the stations at Pattison and City Hall?
How about this morning? No juice at all . Ran shuttle buses and clogged up Market St. , especially at 30th st.
Chuck
[ The shutdown was to allow workers to redo the third rails so that they could meet the new power needs of the M-4's. Why when they're going to begin tearing it down in January? ]
I've seen at least one other reference to work beginning in January. What is going to be 'torn down' in January? The only work I have heard of is the infamous new signalling system for the trolleys that AdTranz agreed to in order to avoid the lawsuit - but that shouldn't affect the MFL, right?
Also, are the 'new power needs' of the M-4s related to the fact that they usually run slower than the M-3s? That is, will the M-4s run faster once they finish upgrading the third rails?
Nothing is going to get torn down in January. SEPTA has only recently begun the public meeting process on the El reconstruction. So far, the meetings have produced nothing of substance but lots of the usual rhetoric about who will get the jobs, how the neighborhood will benefit, grandstanding about who is in "charge" of which "community" (usually defined by one city block), etc etc. Until this process is finished, nothing can move forward. Engineering/design is still underway, but construction cannot begin until the community concerns have been met.
From what I've heard, this is at least a year away, and this might even be optimistic.
Actually, I just noticed that they're getting ready to replace the rails around 15th street. Not sure if they're doing it along the whole line, but I imagine it'll cause a few interruptions in service like replacing the 3rd rail did.
Replacing track? What are they doing there exactly?
Well, I noticed that there are sections of brand-new rail laying between the rails that weren't there a month ago - just like when they had new third rail sections laying between the rails a year ago before they replaced those downtown. I assume they're still in the process of moving the new rails into the tunnels, because they only got halfway through the 15th street station on the westbound side, and they haven't started actually replacing any rail, at least in that area.
I've seen the rails also, but they're certainly not moving anywhere! They've been there for at least a month. I imagine that there will be a few weekend shutdowns after the holidays.
Is what I herd true? Are they going to reopen City Hall station as an annex of the transit museum? If hey are then what are they going to do about the noise from the passing 6 train?
Is what I herd true? Are they going to reopen City Hall station as an annex of the transit museum? If they are then what are they going to do about the noise from the passing 6 train?
Yes, you heard correctly.
At some point in the future (with Mayor Rudy on a heightened state of alert, the future may be many years to come) the City Hall station will be opened as an annex of the Transit Museum. Additional funding has been secured and work will recontinue soon.
As to the noise, a shield (probably plexiglass or lexan or one of those types of materials) will be placed along the edge of the platform. This will effectively dampen the screeching of the wheels (I am sure other soundproofing material will be added) as well as protect visitors from the danger of falling off the platform. It will also keep unwanted visitors from trying to enter the area by trying to walk the track.
For those who don't already know, there is a NYPD booth on the platform and it is staffed around the clock.
Nice to hear this bit of news! One question is: will there be ANY sort of access from the #6 train (i.e. one car-length or one car door with a gap filler at platform's edge)? I agree some sort of soundproofing or noise-abatement will be needed. Although the screech of train wheels is music to my ears (the louder the screech, the more I like it), I am sure that I am in the minority as far as this is concerned. On my only trip through City Hall Loop (Sept. 14 1997), I was acutely aware of the wheel noise, especially on the second curve leaving Brooklyn Bridge (the left-hand one, entering City Hall station proper). #1772, #1653 and #1872 put up a terrific howl as they doubled back into the loop. I wish I had a tape recorder with me...
Wayne
I have 2 comments:
1) I don't like the fact that the MTA is destroying the station as it is by putting in a museum. It is a beautiful place so please don't destroy it by putting huge plexiglass walls everywhere; the sound of the subway is music to my ears.
2) Why is there a police officer there 24/7 and isn't it just a little lonely? Also, how does the officer get there? If it's by subway, what if they forget to pick him up and he rots there???
2) Why is there a police officer there 24/7 and isn't it just a little lonely? Also, how does the officer get there? If it's by subway, what if they forget to pick
him up and he rots there???
He's there to protect City Hall from any crazed people with explosive devices that might happen to wander along the tracks with the intent of making a big boom in lower Manhattan. I don't know how he gets there - I would imagine he takes a train in - but he won't rot unless his relief never shows up and every operating crew on the 6 becomes blind.
If one of the entrances to City Hall station has been restored, then the method of entry is obvious. If not, chances are the officer will board a 6 train at Brooklyn Bridge, and the operator will key one of the doors open at the platform and let him off.
Hey guys heres one for you to ponder. Some guy told me that many years ago in downtown Rochester NY that there was some sort of subway line. Mind you it wasn't anything big but he swears by it. Is this just some sort crazy rumer or is there some truth to it?
Lots of small citys in Europe have trolleys which run on the street in residential areas then go underground in the crowded downtowns. Like the Newark Subway. I wouldn't be surprised if that's what they're talking about in Rochester, and what was planned in Cincinati. Too bad there aren't more of those around. The Buffalo Transit mall killed downtowns retail street by kicking out driving customers. A subway wouldn't do that.
Milwaukee had a subway started to connect the rappid transit line to the downtown terminal. It never made it as far as the terminal and the lack of a fast central city access coupled with an electric company owner that was loosing interest in transit and very interested in selling electricity to houses and industry killed the system. Too bad I was a nice system.
I wonder if any of these things will ever come back. Many parts of the country -- Denver, San Diego, Cleveland -- have decided they want a real downtown, and some city neighborhoods with some people who actually have jobs. People are building light rail. Without the tunnel, however, it really bottles up the street Downtown. Chicago's transit mall (bus) killed State Street, and they just tore it out. The construction of Buffalo's transit mall did the same. If the tunnel is still there, why not?
And how about NJT extending the Newark City Subway down to Ironbound? There must be some unused rails down there they could connect to.
The Buffalo Transit Mall did not kill the downtown. The downtown was already dead. It was hoped that direct subway access to a downtown pedestrian street with free trolley access within the transit mall area would draw people to the downtown. It didn't work for a number of reasons including that people in Buffalo don't like to go outside in the winter, that people in Buffalo prefer to drive, that a small population of Buffalo's metropolitan area actually lives within city limits, that aside from some theaters and sports venues there's nothing in Buffalo's downtown which is something you couldn't find in its suburbs, and that parking and traffic isn't bad enough that people are looking for an alternative to driving.
(Transit Mall didn't kill downtown). Just passing on what a transit-friendly (no car) U. of B alum told me. He said that there were a few old line stores hanging on along Buffalo's "main street" (don't know the name). For the reasons you cite -- Buffalo is so abandoned there is no traffic -- people would drive there. When the built the mall, auto traffic was cut off, and conditions were bad during construction. The last of the stores closed.
It is true, one can debate the actual point when Buffalo expired. Not too many real downtowns left out there, but, as I said, now that they're gone people seem to want them again.
Re: Now that they're gone people want them (downtown stores) back ...
Why ... yes why ! Things change, we all came down from the trees, mom & pop "general" stores grew into department stores. What's so bad about Malls replacing downtown ? Nassau, LI, wants to build a light rail line to Roosevelt Field. Buses go there till 9:30 PM.
NYC is still going to be NYC, but outside, in the burbs why wouldn't something else be better.
Counter point ... the "village" I live in has re-invented downtown. They had the far sightedness to DO SOMETHING about the problem. On Sat. I park for free at the meter, but get a ticket if it stays overnight or more than two hours, i.e. if I take the LIRR I have to feed the meter. Many LI "downtowns" aren't, so they're dieing. And, as I've said here before, they went after extra bus service too, so that everybody can get downtown & shop, shop, shop. They even brought in a new movie, which makes parking hell at night, but now bars & resturants have sprung up ... more business. So to get back to the orig. point ... the old downtown isn't going to make it just because you brought in a trolley or subway.
Mr t__:^)
The Buffalo Transit Mall was percieved as a panacea to fix the problems of the city. But here's the reality, it was to little, to late. First off, the Buffalo metrorail is only partially finished, according to the original plans. It was supposed to extend all the way to UB North Campus. It just ends at South. No doubt that people who lived along the proposed route did not want a funnel for all the undesirables from the city traveling out to their area. In addition, the line was supposed to bring the students from the University into the city since the main campus of UB is way out. However, this dream was never realized and only a small portion of those students who live on the South Campus ever venture in to the city.
In another view, the city was already at its low point. Industry shut down long before, and those who could had already fled the city. Malls such as the Walden Galleria which have everything sprung out which have convienent travel connectionsfor anyone with a car.So the city was left with people who had very little of anything.
It seems like there's a trend with cities having a viable plan for rail transit, and then having the funding cut off before the plans are realized. If the Rochester subway had been extended just a few more miles, it might have met with a different fate. Buffalo has only a partial system, and I hope it survives...SOMEHOW! And then there's the 2nd Ave. Subway.
What other cities have transit systems that were never quite finished?
Well, if you don't like the Walden Galleria, just wait a few years and it will be underground! I'm exaggerating, of course, but it was built on very unstable soil. You can even see the cracks in the floor from the ground heaving, and they had to turn all the fountains into planters!
Actually the original plans for the subway never had it going to the North Campus. But you're right that the proposed extension since has been rejected by the town of Amherst (where the North Campus is located) because of their fear of bad urban elements. The irony here is that the North Campus exists because the city of Buffalo rejected a downtown campus out of fear of bad college elements. That, in effect, closed the book on the city of Buffalo.
There is however, a proposed extension of the subway (the trolley part) which looks like it will get built. They're going to remove the old Aud station and replace it with a slightly further downtown station for the new hockey stadium and then they're planning on continuing the line down toward the Lake where it would then turn and go parallel with the water for about a mile. All of that would be part of the free-fare zone and would be part of the larger water-front revitilization project.
I was recently sharing some of the information on this bulletin board with an old friend of mine who actually grew up and still lives in Buffalo - yes, Buffalo (not Amherst). He concurs with Josh's post about the southern extension of the LRT. He's seen a couple of articles about it and says it's generally perceived of in Buffalo as "a good thing".
According to him - and he believes he could be wrong - he remembers folks from the local transit agency (Niagara Frontier Transportation Authority, or "NFTA" - they also operate the airport and seaport) visiting the schools in the area during the 1970's touting the new MetroRail. They had plans for a system that was in subway under Main Street and had several lines (i.e., Amherst, Airport, etc.).
Now, here's where it gets kind of interesting. From what he's heard, at some point pretty far along into the design cycle the Feds (at the time it was UMTA, now it's the FTA) decided that Buffalo did not have "sufficient urban densities" to warrant "heavy rail" and deemed that the better mode would be "light rail". If NFTA didn't change the plans, bye bye moolah.
So, what we have today is a hybrid system which essentially is fully grade separated with high level platforms in a deep bore tunnel in the suburbs and with street running downtown - EXACTLY the opposite of what you'd normally expect. This was the NFTA's "quick fix" in terms of converting MetroRail to LRT - a simple piece of street running in the heart of the CBD.
The point here is that now Main Street really doesn't support any vehicle traffic, and it would be difficult for NFTA to set up a nice two-way "bus street" with consistent boarding locations, heated shelters, and so on, even if they wanted to. If the MetroRail were a subway, there at least would be more surface options.
The irony is that cities across America are rediscovering that as many possible uses and types of vehicles on a street as reasonably possible can only help the urban setting - a "TransitWay" usually does more harm than good; if you doubt it witness Chestnut Street here in Philadelphia or Howard Street down in Baltimore. Some cities are even trying to bring back two-way traffic to streets that it was banished from in the 1920's. (Is Fifth Avenue in NYC next? With double decker buses?) Buses and streetcars (and other street-running modes) will always have a place, even in the most congested downtown street, but for rapid transit to be "rapid" it must always be free from any possible traffic conflict, especially in the downtown. The NFTA's MetroRail is not. Comments?
(Feds wouldn't provide the money) They have some nerve, even if they were right about Buffalo's density. We had a federal official at a big transporation meeting here a few years back (at the bottom of the recesssion), arguing against further investment in NYC transit system since its central business district would be emptying out like all the others, wouldn't it? The purpose of the federal government is to redistribute money from the undeserving Northeast to the deserving South. Just ask Bill, Newt, Trent, Al, and the new guy from Louisiana, whoever he is.
What will NYC do now without Alphonse to bring some cash into the city?
Alphonse D'Amato had a very simple deal. I'll agree that you can suck a dollar out of New York State and put just 80 cents back in, as long as I control the 80 cents. New York City got very little of that. Of course, it is very possible that things will get worse under Clueless Chuck Schmumer. Which is worse for Brooklyn, having its tax dollars used to subsidize Long Island or Upstate, or having them used for Mississippi, Arkansas, and Louisiana?
[The irony is that cities across America are rediscovering that as many possible uses and types of vehicles on a street as
reasonably possible can only help the urban setting - a "TransitWay" usually does more harm than good; if you doubt it witness
Chestnut Street here in Philadelphia or Howard Street down in Baltimore. ]
Although pedestrian-only streets often do a great deal to revitalize an area. For example, Madison, Wisconsin (State Street I think it's called), Calle Florida in Buenso Aires, and Fremont Street in Las Vegas. Also a good example of Transitway that's worked it Fulton Street Mall in Brooklyn. Business is booming and the locals have a great place to shop. It's busses only and wide sidewalks for pedestrians although I do see cars cheat very often and drive there.
The extension I've heard about would bring the Metro Rail to a suburban mall northeast of the city limits.
No, that's the extension advocated by the Citizens Rapid Transit Committee of Buffalo. In fact they have a number of planned expansions and a subway map detailing their planned extensions. It includes a Northeast expansion to the mall and Amtrak station, a spur to the UB North Campus, a Southwest expansion to Rich Stadium and Orchard Park, and a Northward expansion up Niagara Falls Boulevard to Niagara Falls with a Free Fare Zone within Niagara Falls.
The only official expansion plan is the one to build a new station for the new downtown stadium and parking lot and to swing the subway along the Marina.
I'd imagine, from what I've heard of other cities, that the mall would be opposed to a service extension, to keep poor people from shopping there. Either that or they would want limited service timed to match shift changes, so you could get workers but not shoppers there. Much as you try to make rational plans, these nasty attitudes are always there below the surface, screwing you up.
I absolutely hate the idea of building a subway to the Galleria Mall in Buffalo. How many people would actually take the subway to the Mall? Not many I can assure you. Most everyone has cars in Buffalo, and the Galleria is filled with youth from rich suburbs like Amherst. There is no way that they would forsake a car to take a subway. Subways should be built only where they will be used. In my honest opinion, Buffalo doesn't deserve a subway, it just doesn't have the ridership. Whereas NYC could use about 10 more lines. Just a thought.
(Buffalo doesn't need a subway, NYC needs 10 more lines). The problem here is two areas with different needs in the same state. The NY Metro is rich, but needs infrastructure. Thanks to 30 years of being favored by Albany, upstate doesn't need more infrastructure, but it is losing population and jobs -- its the worst economy in the U.S.
When these two areas cut a deal, you get a) wasteful spending upstate doesn't need in exchange for taxes it can't afford (ie. Cuomo) or b) tax cuts Downstate doesn't need in exchange for an absence of significant public works (Pataki).
That's why I think any road and rail improvements down here would have to be financed locally. Upstate can't take a tax increase, they're sinking as it is. My favorite is a new NYC income tax surcharge, and commuter tax surcharge, dedicated to public works. The city portion would go to the subway, rail freight, and the schools. The commuter taxes would go to commuter rail (ie. LIRR to GCT). It would expire in a decade, like the current police surcharge.
What kind of local taxing authority does the MTA have. They are a regional authority and can generate their own revenue can't they? Or do they spend it all on roads and bridges?
[How many people would actually take the
subway to the Mall?]
Considering that virtually all subway traffic originating outside of the South Campus station is currently going to the pitiful downtown mall, most likely there'd be a considerable amount of passengers to the real mall.
[Most everyone has cars in Buffalo]
Let's give them a viable alternative to using their cars.
[...the Galleria is filled with youth from
rich suburbs like Amherst. There is no way that they would forsake a car to take a subway]
Wealthy people are not inherintly adverse to subway riding, Upper East Siders for example, and hudreds of thousands of suburbanites from Long Island, New Jersey and Westchester County take mass transit everyday.
[Subways should be built only
where they will be used.]
This is true, but not enough is being done in Buffalo to encourage subway usage. The subway can be made to work in Buffalo.
[NYC could use about 10 more lines.]
Agreed, in fact that may be an understatement.
Larry can you say GREEN ACERS ?
Not many whites go there anymore, not counting my wife & I. The Mall is surviving very well thank you. They still have many "big" chains, so maybe it's an example for other parts of the country where there's fear of catering to non-rich, non-white ?
Getting back to the site theme ... the LIRR stops twice NEAR there, I would be interested to know how the traffic is on the TA & LI Buses th
serve the area, i.e. how many "poor" take the bus in ?
P.S. The parking lots are as full as ever so it's just different drivers. One problem is the car theift & breakins that have gone up recently ... good thing both of mine are from the 80's !
Mr t__:^)
[re malls' opposition to transit]
Consider the example of the Trumbull shopping mall in Connecticut. Management tried for years to keep out buses from the nearby city of Bridgeport. They recently gave up the fight as hopeless (not to mention hopelessly non-PC).
What's really disturbing is that the mall's management probably was right. Bus riders accounted for a monumentally disproportionate share of the "troubles" at the mall. I don't remember the exact numbers, but they were hard to imagine - bus riders were less than 5% of the mall's patrons, but more than half of the shoplifting arrests.
Well, I am a skeptic. I'd really like to see how they came up with those numbers - if someone actually came up with them instead of just making them up.
Aside from the "just make it up" possibility, here are two things to think about:
A bus rider that looks like a bus rider (not white) will _very_ likely be watched more closely than other patrons by the security folks and is therefore more likely to be _caught_ if he or she shoplifts.
Moreover, lots of people are caught and less are arrested. The kid from downtown Bridgeport who rode the bus is going to get arrested. The kid from the nice suburb a few block from the mall is going to get a stern lecture and a call home to mom and dad. This sort of thing can way skew the statistics they come up with. This is why identifying bias is a big big deal in science!
(Blacks more likely to be watched, caught, arrested). You sure have a point there. For example, surveys find that whites are as likely, or more likely, to use illegal drugs, but none are in jail.
I have often wondered by minority advocates, rather than asserting that the imbalances should be corrected by allowing Blacks and Latinos to get away with crimes, don't demand that more whites be put in jail. That would be a different response, I'd bet.
[regarding shoplifting arrests of bus riders at Trumbull Mall in Connecticut]
As far as I know, the statistics were not merely made up. Mall management's proposal to ban buses generated quite a bit of controversy, and they had to collect statistics regarding bus ridership and shoplifting arrests in order to buttress their case. Using false statistics would seem way too risky under those circumstances.
Now the bias issue is another matter. I'd say it's relatively unlikely that minorities were watched more closely than other customers and hence more likely to be caught in the act. Minorities made up a significant percentage of shoppers at the mall, probably 15% or more, so it would be difficult for them to get the sort of "extra attention" that would be more likely if they were a rare sight. By the way, while essentially all of the bus riders were black or Hispanic, most of the minority customers arrived by car and were no more likely to shoplift than anyone else.
Where the bias could arrive is with enforcement, as you suggest. It's not at all hard to imagine that white suburban kids caught shoplifting would be able to avoid arrest while poor minority bus riders wouldn't be so lucky. The town of Trumbull, in which the mall is located, has a relatively small police department and complained that handling shoplifting arrests was a major burden. Selective enforcement could well result.
Well, if I could see rigorous numbers that showed that people who arrived on a bus were more likely to be arrested than people of the same race **and age group** who arrived by car I'd believe it. But I think in situations like these you need to very skeptical - do not believe the conclusion that is being claimed until you see the evidence to back it up.
The point is, if you are biased, even not intentionally, it is easy to come up with an answer that supports your conclusion, and stop there. Even if you are not biased, it is easy to reach a wrong conclusion. For instance, I think that just controlling for race would not be sufficient, since a higher proportion of bus riders are of color AND teenagers. So you would have to ensure that they get watched just as much as the older folks of color who drive (no they don't, but for good reason) and the white kids who drive or get dropped off or whatever (no they don't, not for such good reason). Etc. etc.
You're right, the age factor could be significant. I don't recall seeing that mentioned in anything I read about the controversy.
I still think that a major part of the story was the greater propensity to arrest poor city kids vs. middle-class suburban kids for shoplifting.
Did they actually ban busses from stopping at the mall or were they just talking about it? I used to live in Connecticut and they never hesitated to raise taxes if they needed more money. If the Town of Trumbull finds policing the mall such a burden why don;t they hire more cops or force the mall management to hire more private security?
Buffalo's "main street" is called Main Street. Delaware and Elmwood Avenues still have small areas with reasonably nice shops and restaurants, but even when I was living in the area, the LRV ran so infrequently that driving was more efficient. There's seldom any traffic, and lots of parking.
Rochester Transit and its predecessor, New York State Railways operated a few miles of trolley "subway" (really mostly open to the sky) in an old canal bed. This opened fairly late, in the Twenties, I think, and lasted only until June 30, 1956. The Newark City Subway is probably the closest surviving parallel.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
If your interested the Rochester Chapter NRHS has published a book
"Canal Boats, Interurbans & Trolleys-The Story of the Rochester Subway" by Amberger, Barrett, & Marling
There is even a Video "The End of the Line-Rochester's Subway"
by Animatus Studios (I've seen it advertised by Pentrex in the past)
Yes, essentially it was an open air trolley line in the Erie canal bed, terminating in the area of the General Motors Plant. I believe a branch trolley line also ran to the Kodak Plant. Period of operation approximately 1920 to 1950.
Having a sister in the great city of Rochester, I happen to know about this pretty good. The Rochester "subway" was sort of like the Buffalo LRS..i.e. underground stations downtown..a interurban type line going out of town. It was built in the 1920s and abandoned in the late 40s,early 50s. There is a great tape mavailable about the system its faults,etc...just contact the Landmark Society of Western NY in Rochester and they can tell you how to get it...... A hint if you drive into Rochester from the Thruway on I-490, you are riding over the old route of the subway....
I've always wanted to go walk around in the old R.O.W. under Broad Street...
Has anyone ever been there?
Actually I THINK the only part of the tunnel that is left is the part under the D&C building and the old library building......but Im not too sure of that.....
LOOKING FOR STEVE ZABLE PHOTOS OR ANYONE ELSES
WHOM HAS NYC SUBWAY PHOTOS OR SLIDES
What NYCT subject matter are you interested in?
I have over a thousand station and train pictures in my catalogue.
Do you need actual prints or are JPG files OK?
Post your e-mail address if you are interested. Mines' out there
in blue.
Wayne
I was wondering if you had any "people photos". What I mean by that is do you have any pictures of people on the subway?
I am interested in doing a photo spread of "people on the subway". The only thing I'm confused about is if it's ok to publish pictures of people without their permission or will I get sued?
Thank you very much.
As a rule, I scrupulously avoid getting people in any of my pictures. Any of those that do appear get edited out of the JPG file once I scan it. Now and then a person will wander into the picture, unaware that I am about to shoot. Some of my pictures show people at a distance, or with their backs turned; that's OK. I think that it is discourteous to photograph people without their permission. I actually had one person complain to the Transit Police because she thought I accidentally took her picture (which I didn't) - happened last Feb. 28 at Franklin Avenue IRT. So I stick to trains and tiles.
That's enough for me!
Wayne
"I actually had one person complain to the Transit Police because she thought I accidentally took her picture (which I didn't)."
And if you had, what would the offense be for the Transit Police to act upon? Clicking a camera hardly seems like a disturbance of the peace. Peacefully (no trespass, not without permission of the owner of the premises) photographing someone, and even publishing the picture, isn't a crime. It can be a tort (lawsuit) to use someone's image or likeness for commercial purposes without their permission (and commercial purposes can be interpreted somewhat broadly). Even then, just taking the picture is not actionable.
Would commercial purposes include publishing a book with the people in the pictures and selling it in stores?
If it does, wouldn't it be tough to get EVERYBODY's permission in a photo on the subway?
Thanks!
"Would commercial purposes include publishing a book with the people in the pictures and selling it in stores? If it does, wouldn't it be tough to get EVERYBODY's permission in a photo on the subway?"
A very good question. I'm pretty sure that "using someone's image or likeness for commercial purposes" can include producing a book or video for sale, and not just an advertisement.
However, it appears that the following factors have to be established for a lawsuit to be maintained:
* the publication must clearly identify the plaintiff;
* there must be sufficient nexus between the celebrity and the ad to establish that the plaintiff's personality was "used" for the defendant's gain;
* damage or unjust enrichment must flow from the usage; and
* no public interest in the publicity would preclude the application of the tort.
So, if you took a bunch of photos of a celebrity without their permission, and sold those photos in book form, then the celebrity could sue because you used their image or likeness to sell the book. Or, obviously, if you use, without permission, a celebrity's photo in an advertisement so it looks like they sponsor the product, they can sue.
But pictures of ordinary people in the background of a photo of a subway train *shouldn't* be a problem, because of the second and third points. You are not using the image of the PERSON for your gain, but the image of the TRAIN which only **incidentally** includes people. Also, you're not being unjustly enriched -- you're not trying to have some of that person's fame or reputation rub off on your book, as it were.
While it's probably still a good idea, when it's practical, to get releases from people who are clearly identifiable, if there's the occasional person you can't catch up with to get a release, don't scrap the photo. On the other hand, obviously don't use the picture when someone visible in it flat-out refuses to sign a waiver. They have no cause of action, but if they are refusing to sign and you use the picture anyway, they'd probably be pissed enough to sue, and you'd have to spend some money getting the case dismissed.
This posting is a general discussion of the law, and is not particular to any state, the law being potentially different from state to state. It's also not legal advice. (Gotta cover myself -- I don't have any malpractice insurance!)
Nice discussion. Thanks John
Thanks for the advice!
ANYONE INTERESTED IN SELLING PHOTOS OR SLIDES PLEASE E-MAIL ME ASOTO12752
In the last few weeks, someone posted a response to the topic (I think this is it) "L.A. Subway Expansion and the Manhattan Bridge. It said the cost for one-half mile of subway to connect the BMT bridge tracks to the Rutgers IND tunnel, in Brooklyn, would be $700 million.
Is this possible? It seems so outrageously high. The East River isn't a wide one and somehow, it seems to me that a completely new tunnel connecting to the bridge tracks on the Brooklyn side, and both the Broadway Line (using the Chambers St. lower level) and the 6th Ave. line (using part of the Nassau St. line, and connecting to the Christie St. tracks) would be cheaper, and provide the needed permanent solution.
Does anyone know where to get unbiased cost estimates? Or is the geology that difficult? Or labor costs that high and/or work practices that inefficient?
Mike Rothenberg
As a department of subways employee. I was dismayed at the fact that when I received my paycheck last week, the raise that was supposed to be there wasn't there. If there is anyone from the dept of subways that didn't get their raise the reason is that the stupid Brooklyn division and MABSTOA bus drivers who put their fellow driver in office got theirs first only because they go along with the givebacks and keep their mouths shut.Beware: we must gear up for the fight vs the busdrivers for the next contract.We must all be ready to vote no on the contract because they always vote yes no matter what.Bottom line:BUS DRIVERS ARE STUPID(LOCAL 100 THAT IS)
Sorry to disappoint you mike, but I did not receive my raise either. However, a memo was issued to us stating that we will see the raise on our November 21 (25) check. Also I recieved a letter from the union stating dues would go up on that check. As far as what is owed to us we will get a retroactive check for that on a later day. Hey, you and Hank Eisenstein should start a hate the bus driver club. Are you the Train operator that let Hank operate his train? Funny thing is if the bus drivers are so stupid why are they running the local? Im sure Bus Operators are not your division chairs also are they? The conspiracy continues. BTW Hank, I train on the new Hybrid tommorow, can't wait to etch my tag on the drivers side window~!
The reason bus drivers are running the local is that half the time we don't receive our ballots or they are thrown away.Besides what does a busdriver know about the dept of subways?nothing.We're tired of this Local not paying attention to what we want., always paying attention to what you drivers want.If that mass meeting takes place there will be lots of tension inside the building.Buses and Subways don't like each other.Two questions: are drivers willing to strike next year? Is Sonny Hall a victim of TA management after that fiasco at Westside depot? or is he what we think he is ,working hand in hand with management?
{Hey, you and Hank Eisenstein should start a hate the bus driver club.}
{BTW Hank, I train on the new Hybrid tommorow, can't wait to etch my tag on the drivers side window~!}
HEY! DID I EVER ACCUSE YOU OF DOING THIS?
Did I ever state that I hated bus drivers? No. In fact, I've been riding the bus for the last 10 years, and I never met a driver I didn't like. And since I've never met you, I'm not going to make a decision on the subject. The point of my original post was that _SOME_ drivers and _SOME_ mechanics abuse the equipment. And you AGREED. QUOTE:
{Defacing property as you mentioned [in a response to a post by Wayne], by the fleet number, I do not appreciate. For example in the summer I had a really bad, slow 3000. Next to the number a employee wrote S#$%box in large magic marker letters. This is very embarrasing as a employee because it doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out who did this. Its a bad reflection upon me.}
So don't go around insulting me.
-Hank
Since your quoting here's one of my favorites of yours from last week. After several days of specific examples of driver graffiti your were painted into a corner when I kept asking about specific SCRATCHITI incidents on drivers compartments windows. Since your were unable to do so this was your quote "I say what I've seen." If your interning at a law office your in the right career path for politician Hank, keep up the good work.
Employee vandalism (sabotage) is committed by a very small number of employees, but it does happen. Remember the bus maintainer who was killed when he allegedly slashed the air bag suspension (to create overtime) and the bus fell on him? While you may not be one of them, we can not ignore the problem...
I never said I saw a lot of it. I only saw it once. There are no numerous incidents to cite. The issue is employee vandalism.
As for the interning crack, I'm not. I'm also not intrested in being a lawyer. I'm NOT an intern, and I do NOT work with the law. I'm a computer tech, and I must say, the bunch of lawyers I work for are some of the dumbest stumps I've ever met.
And as for me being anti-bus driver, speak to Larry Hanley of ATU 726; ask him about the 'Staten Island Better Buses Campaign'
-Hank
I concede that there is employee vandalism, even citing examples that I know of. All I was debating was the actual vile act of scratchiti in driver compartments which I have never seen and HOPE not to ever see.
Lo and behold, the Metro section of the New York Times had a column today advocating privatizing the bus system, as London has done, and blasting transit advocates like the Straphangers for not pressing privitization for the benefit of riders.
Not much support for this position. If there is a strike, however, or even a raise followed in short order by a fare increase that people don't think is fair (relative to the change in their incomes), that could change. Not many pols are going to advocate putting more tax dollars in so the TWU (or MTA managers, for that matter) can take it out, so the money has to come from riders.
I have it on good authority that Willie was threatened with the privitization of just about everything. And Pataki is going to be in for four more years. You can't bother him by threatening to hurt the city, because he doesn't give a damn about it anyway. Like Mr. T says, if Willie says its a good deal, you better vote for it. Otherwise you'll end up applying to him for a job.
[Lo and behold, the Metro section of the New York Times had a column today advocating privatizing the bus system, as London has done, and blasting transit advocates like the Straphangers for not pressing privitization for the benefit of riders.
Not much support for this position. If there is a strike, however, or even a raise followed in short order by a fare increase that people don't think is fair (relative to the change in their incomes), that could change. Not many pols are going to advocate putting more tax dollars in so the TWU (or MTA managers, for that matter) can take it out, so the money has to come from riders. ]
That was an interesting column. At least the way I read it, the Straphangers' position is somewhat ambiguous: Are they (a) in bed with the unions, or (b) pragmatists who figure there's no way to be anti-union in NY's political climate? I sort of lean toward the second choice. New York seems to have kept its union tradition even as unions have lost influence elsewhere in the country. Which is odd in a way, because the percentage of union members among the city's private-sector labor force is lower than the national average (it's above average among government and hospital workers).
At any rate, I have to agree with you about privatization. Barring a strike or *maybe* a big raise/fare increase, it won't happen. Which is sad in a way, because if a private transit system could survive anywhere in America, it would be in New York.
The buses were private many years ago. It didn't work & the city took over because they went bankrupt. I guess you want to go back to that, it may work for a few years, then we'll be back to square one.
(It would only work for a few years) There is this issue with private infrastructure. The contractor runs it down and then disappears (ie. the Jamaica Water Supply) leaving the public holding the bag. That's why I don't think you could privatize control of the subways. The buses are another matter.
But I think Mr. Libertarian is missing something: the TA loses money on its "social service" function. A private bus service could make money by eliminating unprofitable night service (Do private buses in London run all night), and unprofitable routes to low-density affluent areas where people generally don't ride but like having it there for Granny and teens to get to the Mall (Staten Island).
That's why I asked Reuter if they compiled data on cost per ride by route and by time of day when he came to City Planning last year. That would allow the TA to say -- here is our economic function, which DOES make money, and here is our social service/preserve mobility function, which you subsidize. I thought it would be politically useful to have. They seem to think it would be politically disasterous if people found out who was subsidizing who.
As for riders vs. unions, they share some interests and not others -- like teachers and children. They share an interest in getting more money into the system, and have diverging interests in how it is divied up.
[But I think Mr. Libertarian is missing something: the TA loses money on its "social service" function. A private bus service could make money by eliminating unprofitable night service (Do private buses in London run all night), and unprofitable routes to low-density affluent areas where people generally don't ride but like having it there for Granny and teens to get to the Mall (Staten Island).
That's why I asked Reuter if they compiled data on cost per ride by route and by time of day when he came to City Planning last year. That would allow the TA to say -- here is our economic function, which DOES make money, and here is our social service/preserve mobility function, which you subsidize. I thought it would be politically useful to have. They seem to think it would be politically disasterous if people found out who was subsidizing who.]
I can't understand the TA's reticence either. It shouldn't matter that the public finds out what services make money and what ones don't. Most likely, inner-city routes are subsidizing those in better-off areas, thanks to ridership patterns. That's sort of a reversal of the usual pattern. Why is the TA afraid to acknowledge that?
Re: TA's reticence on profitable vs. unprofitable routes (times).
Obviously, at least at the lower levels of operations mngt, they know. Otherwise how would you decide which routes need extra equip., trips within runs, shorter "headways", etc. I can't believe that the suits upstairs never ask about it ... so they know.
Maybe the "privates" think about this differently, since addl. equip. to support a "service level" translates to cost right away, i.e. the short fall from the farebox that needs to be made up so we have enough cash in the bank to make payroll every Wednesday. Somebody in the TA has to think about this because there's a finite amount of funny money in their system before they need to ask Virgal, George & Rudy for more. And how would they otherwise know they have a surplus ?
The other point is that the US DOT publishes a book that shows who is running a more efficient operation (cost vs. fleet size). The report isn't as blunt as that, but do a little math & you can figure it out. The point is that colleagues & vendors accross the country KNOW if you're running a top heavy operation & the vendors are quick to tell George or Virgil so they can sell get them on another contract for a "study".
I get the feeling that i'm rambling here a little .... I guess what i'm saying is that they think about these things, but would have to do a much better job of it if it was a private operation.
Someone else said that private buses didn't work before (the city had to take them over) but why was that. It goes to the same problem that effected the long distance passenger trains & international air travel by US carriers. The operators weren't bringing in enough money to make ends meet, the government turned a blind eye to their plight until there was almost no service left. Well enough rambling.
Mr t__:^)
Yeah but your Union Dues are going up with the next pay check, raise or no raise ........
Why are internal union problems being discussed here, anyway?
-Hank
Just want to let you know that Car "G" / Money Car is leaving today for the Transit Museum.
Are you talking about the train car from the movie "Money Train"?
No, that was car 51050 or somesuch.
See the museum roster for pictures of Car G.
No, car G was built in 1878 in a style typical of railway coaches of that era. According to Shoreline's booklet, it is the oldest surviving rapid transit car in the world; it's even 24 years older than Seahore's Gibbs 3352!
BTW, that car in Money Train is a modified R-21.
Yes. 'G' is an IRT money car but from the els. I don't think it would have been allowed in the Subway though you never know - non passenger equipment had different rules. Branford has many RT cars older than 3352 from both the BRT and the IRT. But as far as steel subway cars go, 3352 is still the oldest. STM's Boston 0210 and Branford's IRT 3600 series deck roof car follow closely.
Technically, the Deckroof cars (such as Branford 3662) were
the first all-steel subway cars. The Gibbs cars have a wooden
roof. Then again, both cars have wooden window sash.
Yeah But Seashore's Gibbs Car #3352 is the first all steel car.
Yes, indeed. Sorry I didn't mention that. Both G and 3352 have the honor of being the oldest surviving cars of their respective categories: rapid transit in general and all-steel.
The Composites ran in the subway until 1916, and the Malbone St. wreck in 1918 proved once and for all that the subway is no place for wooden cars.
Yeah But Seashore's Gibbs Car #3352 is the first all steel car.
As some of my fellow SE Pennsylvanians may know, over the past couple of weeks, SEPTA has had problems with the power delivery systems of some routes(RR and the SS Trolleys).
A few weeks ago, the regional rail system in Zone 1 and in Center City
(All of Philadelphia proper's RR stations) was hut down because of some kind of power accident at 30th St.-Amtrak. The lines were shut down for an hour(save for the R5 which didn't get power until the next morning).
And then last week the trolleys were shut down because of a power shortage on the overhead catenary.
Is this a typical occurance in other places? Are all the lines linked this way so iof one falls they all fall in other places(I guess that's why the only overhead power in NYC is coming from NJ. Poor babies:)
Doesnt SEPTA have it's own Power Plant cause The MTA has their own Power Plant. SEPTA should get their own power plant. In New York City at the control center. When a flood has appeared they cut the power to that Section. While the other lines run normally. Does SEPTA have a control center?
Christopher Rivera
To my knowledge, no.
SEPTA has many "substations" around the city, but these merely take commercially generated (Peco Energy) power and transform it into the correct voltage for the appropriate lines. The substations are in decrepit condition (big surprise!) and this is why failure is so common. A few years back, a squirrel climbed into a transformer along the regional rail and shut all of Center City down.
The El problem last Monday was not so much a power problem as it was one of incorrect third rail height. Some ballasting/tamping was done to profile track along the line and the third rail wasn't properly adjusted. Apparently it was touching the structure and shorting out the line.
1-Has anyone seen the mildly amusing new SEPTA commercials-"It's amazing the lengths people will go to to avoid riding SEPTA...."?
2-Has anyone seen the commercial for the Atlantis resort in the Bahamas which features a work-a-day man diving into a PATH car filled with water at the WTC?
3-How badly damaged were the subway/PATH stations after the WTC bombing? Are any of the stations still damaged in some way?
Interesting that you mention the PATH underwater commercial.
There is an artificial reef off the coast of NJ, I believe, that consists partly of old PATH cars. And I hear they are holding up pretty well underwater, too.
--Mark
I am doing a project which requires me to know information about the subway and its accidents. I know there have been many. The kind that I am trying to find information upon is accidents in which people have fallen into the pit where the tracks are and have possibly been hit or killed by the incoming train. I know this is a morbid subject, but i do need info. If anyone has heard of an accident similar to what I have described please e-mail me at jaywest@gate.net with a reply. Thank you!
There are 2-3 accidents similar to what you are looking for every week on the NYCT System. Can you be more specific as to exactly what you are looking for. Also, it would be helpful if I knew an approximate age range, I'd know how graphic I could be. I've responded to literally dozens of such incidents.
Probably the least pleasant job a transit employee can be asked to do. Unfortunately these things do happen and someone has to deal with it. Hopefully Amanda will not use this to determine that subways pose a threat to some class of people, who are more likely to jump in front of a train than others!
Gerry,
Hi. I just wanted to let you know that I do understand that these things do happen. I also understand that the subway does not pose a threat to cerrtain classes of people that might jump in front of a subawy. Thank you for taking a part in writing a message. I appreciate it.
Amanda
Steve,
I am a high school student and let me simply tell you this: I want the straight forward happenings. I do not want them sugar coated. Going through childhood is like going through a candyland. Things are often sugar coated. Since my project is directly on what accidents can occur if someone does fall in, I want the exact information. (If that isn't a problem.) If it is really vulgar or grusome I will have my parents look at it first. But, I do wish to have the uncut version, so I really do know what are the effects. Thanks again!!!
Amanda
Much has been said about how New Yorkers will tranfer from a local train to an express train to save 3 minutes of travel time.
I recall on instance where the difference was much more substantial. In my high school days (pre-Christie St.), the Brighton line trains all ran via the Broadway line in Manhattan (except for the rush-hour Bankers Specials to the Nassau Loop). The big time saver was the Manhattan Bridge route, not only cutting out 7 stops compared to the Montague St. tunnel, but also taking a considerably shorter route. The time savings between DeKalb and Canal alone was on the order of 12 mins., and the overall time difference between the express and local trains between 57th St. and Brighton Beach was in excess of 15 mins.
I don't believe that there are any existing situations left where the express/local differences are so extreme (at least, not since the Manhattan Bridge-Broadway link has been closed).
Well here is my daily trip from 47th St/50 Rock (forget my trip on the F to/from Queens Plaza). If I let the downtown D pass and the exact next train is Q, we will catch the D a Newkirk.
If the next train is a B and the one after that the Q we will catch the D right at Kings Highway or even misss it.
More often then not I will opt for the Q and even wait for it just because (I love the 40Slant errr) the Q makes less stops and you have less people bumbing into each other as they detrain in Brooklyn.
I know your talking about parrallel stops of express and locals and from observation Northbound at Kings Highway it looks like whatever comes in first. Most people do wait for the Q, some look down the line as the D enters and hop on. Few get off the D to wait for the Q, some do to look for it. For same time arrivals (which have been happening less and less, it D/Q used to meet all the time)people jump accross for the D but I still feel SEATING IS A FACTOR. Many people at Kings Hwy just take the D to get a seat. After 7am, no arriving Q has any seats left.
FWIW
The only other "extreme" cases I can think of are the IND 59th to 125th St runs, and the Queens Blvd run between Queens Plaza and Roosevelt Ave (more direct).
I also think people along 4th Ave in Brooklyn, if given the opportunity, would take an express from Pacific St to 59th St even if they end up waiting at 59th for the same R train that they left at Pacific. Why? The run to 59th on the R is so damn long! It seems faster to take the express to 59th and eait for the local than it does to just stay on the local.
I can also think of one occurrance where people will likely switch from the express to the local and that's the Q at Sheepshead Bay. Given a Q or a D at that stop, I'd opt for the D to Brighton Beach because more likely than not, the Q has to wait for a terminal track to free up before it can proceed. When I lived on Brighton 6th St, I did that all the time.
--Mark
Hey,
What about the #7 Express???
It cuts out a large number of stops and makes the trip incredibly faster.
[What about the #7 Express???
It cuts out a large number of stops and makes the trip incredibly faster.]
It's been calculated that taking the 7 express vs. the local will save about 5 minutes on a trip between Flushing and Times Square. That's not insignificant from a daily rider's standpoint, but I'd hardly call it "incredibly faster."
(Value of five minutes) That's nearly an hour a week added to the life of a full time worker. Six minutes of savings gives you the hour. And that's like adding two days to your life every year.
I've tried to make the point around here that speed and comfort matter. Every transportation study starts with population and employment projection. Voila, the city's population and employment have not fluctuated in a narrow range since 1940, so no investments are required. Well they are required, to improve speed and comfort, because otherwise the Metro area will not be competitive as a place to live and work, and it will end up like Buffalo.
On this subject, the MTA cites a study a while back that said that riders think that time spent waiting is twice as long as it actually is, so that longer waits are worse than longer rides. This implies that people are better off with all-local service: the ride is longer, but the wait per train is shorter than if you split them between express and local service.
Reading the comments on this site, I wonder if that study was correct. It seems that people would rather wait five minutes on a platform to get an express, or a seat, rather than get on a slow local. This implies people would rather see more expresses where possible (Jerome Ave, West End, Culver) even if this meant increasing the headway at some stops from five minutes to ten minutes. Of course, in that case close in stops would get the long headways without faster service.
Case in point: Why do folks ride the Express buses at 3.00 trains at 1.50 ... comfort, convience. So, might more express trains form the extremities of the system draw more folks to the trains ... I'll bet it would.
Mr t__:^)
I agree . . . the psychological effect of taking an "express" train is a great attraction for a large number of people who otherwise think that public transportation is slow.
Those 3 to 5 minutes saved on an Express just might mean making a conenction be it Bus/Subway Line/LIRR/MetroNorth/Amtrak/Greyhound which could mean a wait of of 15/5/30/30/90/180 minutes by just missing that departure by "a minute".
Staten Island Ferry, too (sorry Hank) that's 20/30 mintues.
It's a regular subway riders thing. You arrive, run to the other side of the platform, lean out, peer down the track, and run back if nothing is comming, but if you switch and beat a couple of trains makes you feel s-o-o-o-o good ! It's just too boring to say on the local all the way !
Mr t__:^)
Mr. t
I think there is the added dimension if you are a rail fan or subway buff. Last year, a fellow Seashore Instructor and his wife visited me in NYC. I took them on the express from 34th St. to W. 4th Street on the good old Slant-40. We rocketed down at a max speed of 50 mph (for a brief second) and made it in 2:10. My friend the Instructor got the same rush I did. His wife couldn't care less.
For the everyday passenger on the subway, getting there, as quickly and comfortably as possible is the important thing. For us fans/buffs, HOW you get there and what you SENSE is part of the mix too!
I think you just made Wayne (Mr. Slant R-40) Whitehorne's day.
You are correct: those of us who are transit buffs do get a feeling of exhiliration on a fast express train, and the slant R-40s are some of the fastest cars around. Those cars, plus that express dash along 6th Ave., make for an unbeatable combination. It would be even more fun if the 23rd and 14th St. stations were visible. Part of the thrill of riding an express is seeing the local stations as your train roars past.
Now, if they could put a few of those slants back on the A. That's OK, the R-38s do just fine there.
Maybe we should conduct a poll as to which express run is the most popular among Subtalkers.
Most popular express run -- Jay St to 7th Avenue on the F, due to a service problem. Its not my stop, but it makes my day anyway, especially since I get to speed by a bunch of locals stuck on the local track. Least popular -- the same one, when I am stuck on one of the locals.
Express reroutes are always fun for the very reason you alluded to. I rode a rerouted N from Union Square to 34th St. six or seven years ago, and each station along the way had a local sitting there. You want to say, "Ha-ha, we're going past you." My eyes popped as it pulled in on the express track, and you better believe I jumped right on board as soon as the doors opened! I didn't even mind that the train was made up of R-68s, and view through the cab window was blocked.
My all-time favorite express run is still the CPW jaunt from 59th to 125th, although it's not the same without the R-10s. I'll bet the slant R-40s could do a job there; they certainly did during the late 70s.
Best express run (if you are willing to call it that) was across the Manhattan Bridge between DeKalb and Canal. Train didn't go very fast, but the scenery was terrific.
I have to think about this question for a while. I *think* my favourite express run is the #7 out to Main Street. I don't know - something about passing all those stations and being on an elevated line just gives me a thrill.
--Mark
Ahh, Todd, Thurston, Steve, let us savor the moments!
My favorite Express Run is from Brighton Beach to Prospect Park, at the front window of a Slant R40 Q train.
Simon Billis and I were aboard an L train which went roaring through the 14th Street Tube at max. speed of 50 MPH. Our ears popped and then our eyes as the speedo hit the big five-oh. This was, of course, #4399, the Molly Hatchet of the Canarsie Line, stringing her swaying brood along behind her, rocking and rolling all the way to Bedford Avenue.
And Peggy D. and I won't soon forget #4175's two-minute leap from Herald to Washington Squares on the Q train - we couldn't see her speedometer but Peg did guesstimate that we also hit the big five-oh at one point. She was smokin'!
Wayne
(Mr.Slant R40)
Last year, right after the equipment swap on the Q, my 2 sons & I took a ride on the Q. They never were able to look out the front window on the Brighton Line "thanks" to the R68. Unknown to them, we had a bonus. An R32! Did that bring back memories of my past: a 32 on the Brighton Express! BTW: my preparation to be a motorman was helped by looking out the front window for many years. With all these transverse cabs around, the young aspiring motormen of the future have a disadvantage.
I've said this before but I'll say it more and more, this is true story.
Q and D meet at Kings Highway.
D R68 train operator says to the Q 40Slant operator "Now you have a real subway train there".
(Seems the Q guy just came from operating D's).
I can't agree more.
I Maybe the only Brighton Line customer that wants the R40S on the Q instead of the B!!!
Who says you can't go home again? The R-32s made their debut on the Q in 1964. They also ran on the Q in the mid-80s. My sister and I were headed down to Little Italy for dinner one eveing, and headed over to the Broadway line. I insisted on taking an express, of course, since we were getting off at Canal St., which we did - a Q of R-32s. The only drawback was that our train crawled all the way from Prince St. down the ramp to the bridge station. I got a dirty look from my sister you wouldn't believe, since locals were zipping past us. Hamanahamanahamana. I didn't care - I simply didn't like the idea of stopping at every station.
I also rode the R-32s on the Q last year, incidentally. Got some nice pictures through the strom door window of the Empire State Building looming dead ahead.
I still wouldn't mind putting a few slant R-40s on the A and turning them loose.
Say, Wayne, if the R-1/9s and BMT standards were geared the same, that would mean A flat above middle C equates to about 50 mph, wouldn't it?
I'd say that old R-6 was going at LEAST fifty MPH down that chute. He picked up speed after unwinding from the curve between Van Wyck and Sutphin, which he took at a very good clip; that curve is very broad.
I think the D-Types, R-1, R-4, R-6, R-7, R-9 and BMT Standards all shared the same gears, from the sound of it. I know the D-Type made the same moaning low-F# to low-Ab growling sounds back on Oct 18.
Wayne
It depends on how one interprets low vs high. I'm sure you're referring to F# and Ab above middle C, which I refer to as high. Those old cars all ramped up in pitch through F# and Ab below middle C as they gathered speed, 2+ octaves in all. The lowest discernible pitch those motors made was two octaves below middle C.
How much quieter are the Triplex units compared to the R-1/9s? I understand they were much quieter, but can't say for sure because I've never ridden on them.
Welll... I rode on the D-Types back on October 18, and, despite their advanced ages (71 years young), they still provided a fairly smooth ride. The growling and groaning of their Bull gears, however, was quite evident, getting up to about F above middle C during the express run from 36th Street to Pacific Street. The R-6 cars (these are the ones I remember best) were definitely noisier - at speed, you not only heard the typical gear whine, but a deep rumble as well.
The R-7 and R-9 cars I rode on the Eastern Division lines never got going fast enough for me to notice extra noise as the result of speed.
The verdict: Yes, the D-Types were somewhat less noisy overall than the R-6s, but were by no means quiet. Their air brake sounds were great, too (ksssshhh, csshhhhhh, tschhhhh, pfsssss)
Wayne
That's interesting. I never noticed a rumble from the R-1/9s at speed, only when they initially got rolling from a dead stop. The, or should I say, your slant R-40s have a distinct rumble at speed, especially when they ran on the B between Pacific St. and 36th St. I think it's really cool; it gives the impression that you're going even faster. Of course, the R-10s could raise one helluva racket, too! I'll say this much: unless you were on a car with a noisy truck, the noise level on any New York train was much more tolerable than in Chicago.
How about the doors on the Triplex units? How fast did they open and close compared to the BMT standards?
The Triplex car doors opened and closed in a similar manner to the R-6s/R-7s/R-9s, but not as slow as BMT standard nor as quick as R10.
They have interesting doors - a single panel with four panes ; the bottom two panes have chicken wire between the sheets of glass.
They're painted battleship grey inside and have a little lite bulb
with a scalloped edge at the socket directly above them. The D-types are very unique trains, to say the least.
Wayne
It's possible that the light bulbs above the doors on the Triplex units (and BMT standards, for that matter) may be part of the emergency lighting system. The R-1/9s had an additional twist (no pun intended): their emergency lights had left-handed screw threads in an attempt to thwart bulb-snatchers.
I do hope to be able to take in the sounds and ride characteristics of the Triplex units myself one of these days, if I ever happen to be in the city when a fantrip is scheduled. I still kick myself for missing an opportunity to be a part of history. We were in New York on July 21 and 22, 1965, and left for home on the 23rd - the same day those cars made their last revenue run. Of course, I knew nothing about it at the time. Even though we rode exclusively on the BMT Southern Division, I didn't see any Triplex trains. We even rode on the West End to 71st St., but it was during midday on a TT of, I believe, R-32s.
I'll agree with that ! There are so many GREAT experiences to be had in NYC, riding the subways is one of them.
P.S. Boston & Philly too have there share of GREAT experiences. Can't speak to other big cities, so understand I haven't left them out for any negitive reason.
I don't understand people who live here/there all their lives and don't once make the little effort to savor the city. And so much is FREE or cheep, e.g. 1.50 to the Village or Chinatown, just to go out for dinner or a slice of Pizza with atmosphere ! The Halloween, Thanksgiving or St. Pat's parades ... what excuse can you come up with for not visiting Santa at Macys once in your life ? AND you can get to them all via mass transit. Maybe it's me ... just an old country boy form the swamps of central CT.
Mr t__:^)
Sorry? I've probably speat 3 or 4 days in that terminal, the time I've spent there late nights missing the boat by 3-5 minutes. The worst is when you miss it by the few minutes, and they CANCEL the next boat. With a 1-hour wait from the announcement....
-Hank
Reminds me of the time about a month ago I decided to return to Manhattan from Brooklyn via Staten Island one Saturday evening. . . caught the s53 to Grasmere, the train to St. George, arrived at about 10 after 7, only to find out that there was no 7:30 boat . . . the next one would be at 8. (The arrival that would have been the 7:30 was discharging passengers only).
And the terminal was already fairly crowded at 7:10!!
Reminds me of the time about a month ago I decided to return to Manhattan from Brooklyn via Staten Island one Saturday evening. . . caught the s53 to Grasmere, the train to St. George, arrived at about 10 after 7, only to find out that there was no 7:30 boat . . . the next one would be at 8. (The arrival that would have been the 7:30 was discharging passengers only).
And the terminal was already fairly crowded at 7:10!!
From my own personal standpoint, the time savings issue is, for the most part, irrelevant. I take expresses whenever and wherever possible because: 1) I know my way around and 2) I don't like the idea of stopping at every station. If my ride originates and ends at an express station, I'll wait for an express. I will not take a local unless I board at, or have to get off at, a local stop, or if there is no other option. I've been known to take a 2 or 3 to 72nd St. when going to Lincoln Center and walking six blocks back to Avery Fischer Hall. (It paid off once when there was a problem on the uptown local track. As we went by each local stop on the 2, I noticed every platform was jammed.)
I'll be the first to admit that I'm a stubborn person. Back in the late 60s, when I came to the city on Saturdays, I would wait for an A train at 42nd St. no matter how long it took, even if AA and E trains followed each other every two minutes. (Don't get me started on the E train.) There were times when my mother and sister would go ahead on a local, and I would still wait.
Let me rephrase what I said: I'm a stubborn express junkie - gotta have my express fix!
Dear Larry, Out here Cal Berkeley did a related study which concluded that people preferred short headway, slow service, ESPECIALLY, if a transfer was involved. Funny how the survey results can be fine tuned by tweaking the questions. In any event, with few exceptions, Philly Broad St morth, and Market from 34th to Broad, and the Evanston Exp on CTA, New Tork is the only system with significant express service.
(NY only system with express service) NYC commuter railroads often choose the express -- longer headway route. I'd bet that's true elsehwere. NYC commuter trains make all local stops off peak, but often serve just a few stations then run express all the way in at rush hour. If the the Hudson & Babylon lines were run as all locals, they could be run as frequently as a subway.
Perhaps it depends on just how long a ride we're talking about. Its one thing to have a 25 vs. 35 minute ride, another thing for one hour vs. 90 minutes. That's why I advocate locals with short headways on inner parts of the system, and expresses with long headways on outer parts, rather than both expresses and locals going to the end of the line.
[NY only system with express service) NYC commuter railroads often choose the express -- longer headway route. I'd bet that's true elsehwere. NYC commuter trains make all local stops off peak, but often serve just a few stations then run express all the way in at rush hour. If the the Hudson & Babylon lines were run as all locals, they could be run as frequently as a subway.]
Metro North uses a sort of hybrid system on many of its off-peak trains. On the New Haven line, most off-peak trains from New Haven run local to Stamford, then express to 125th Street and Grand Central Terminal. Other trains originate in Stamford and run local to 125th/GCT. The same is done on the Harlem line, with North White Plains being the intermediate stop.
Peter,
I'm surprised, this is the kind of information that the MTA would be feeding us. It's also called lying with statistics.
Ok, this is how it works. The express only goes from Queensboro Plaza to Willets Point. When you calculate the time saved over the local BETWEEN THESE TWO POINTS, it will be very significant. However, adding in all those extra stations between Times Square and Queensboro Plaza dilutes the time that has been saved.
There are a LOT of people who also only ride this stretch also, switching off from the N train at QbP. If you've ever been on an N train during either rush hour, you'll notice the mass exodus at QbP.
I mean, the express #7 (Soon to be the #11!) turns 14 stops betwn. Queensboro Plaza and Willets Point into 4. Now what can beat that???
Please don't give the MTA any excuse for ending this express run!
As I have stated elsewhere, the Manhattan Bridge is the key to Broadway Express service. Without it the 3 minutes gained run from Canal to 57th does not make it worthwhile. A fifteen minute gain is worth it!
Agreed. You could make a case if the 63rd St. connection to the Broadway is permanently tied in, since it connects directly to the express tracks. Without it, there is nothing gained by switching, say, N trains from local to express south of Prince St. They would have to switch back to the local track before 57th St., which would mean merging with R trains. Any delay would wipe out any time savings.
Bottom line: the Manhattan Bridge makes a huge difference.
In last week's Daily News, there was an article on the MTA's huge surplus which made the front cover. In the article, Mr. Reuter discloses the surplus numbers as being overblown. Figures overblown or not, there was a surplus big enough for the MTA to purchase these brand new coach buses for Staten express bus riders that are more in numbers then I'd originally thought. Just yesterday evening, I was driving on the BQE(Brooklyn Queens Expressway) and saw a lot of these coaches driving on by heading for Staten Island. In a way I'm kind of angry at this because I just don't quite see the need or justification for these coaches. What's wrong with the new buses that cover nearly the entire express bus fleet now. Money should be spent for station rehab and new cars to replace the ones on the 7th & Lexington Ave lines. I'm the type person that hates to see things wasted; especially money. The city of New York does a good job at doing that. Let's just hope that the MTA does not take that route.
-GarfieldA
Well I can't speak for the TA, but here at one of the "privates" we & our customers are mighty glad we'er replacing our fleet of 1979 RTSs with new CNG coaches (my buff friends not withstanding).
The former mayor of "Village" I live in used to paint the year he bought the truck/car in bold numbers. You'ld see that 1964 dump truck often enough that you didn't mind so much when a new one was filling pot holes. Maybe the TA ought to put the year on trains & buses ?
Mr t__:^)
Not a bad idea!
I bet this would be an eyeopener for the public, esp. with subway cars like the Redbirds!
Garfield:
The new MCI coaches that you think are a waste of money cost $389,000 each vs. about $285,000 for your typical RTS. For the extra money, NYCT gets 57 seats instead of 39, a nearly 50% increase in seating capacity. That translates into a substantial reduction in the need for additional service, thus saving substantial money in Bus Operator wages, fuel, maintenance, need for storage, etc. Having read this, do you still think it's a waste to buy these 180 MCI coaches?
David
I would have to take a ride one of these days on the new coaches. My question to you is, where did you find out about the cost of both new coaches and the existing fleet Dav ???
-GarfieldA
I am by no means a fiscal expert but I think that the media is once again guilty of adding 1+1 and getting 3. As I understand it, the surplus is roughly $67 million. This contrasts with a previously forcast deficit of $170 million. If you add the two, you come out almost $240 million ahead of where it was projected to be. A $240 million swing is nothing to sneeze at but it's a far cry from the actual amount of the surplus...
Here's an interesting query: as far back as I could remember (even as a kid) I recall that as you rode the IRT Manhattan-bound #2 (7th Avenue Line) train as it was leaving the Atlantic Terminal you would see a recessed wall just pass the end of the platform which almost looked like the start of what was meant to be a spur into the LIRR station area. Does anyone know of what I am talking about? If so, anyone care to speculate on that recessed tunnel walls' history?
BMTman
[Here's an interesting query: as far back as I could remember (even as a kid) I recall that as you rode the IRT Manhattan-bound #2 (7th Avenue Line) train as it was leaving the Atlantic Terminal you would see a recessed wall just pass the end of the platform which almost looked like the start of what was meant to be a spur into the LIRR station area. Does anyone know of what I am talking about? If so, anyone care to speculate on that recessed tunnel walls' history?]
It *supposedly* was a connection between the IRT and LIRR, that allowed August Belmont's private subway car (the Mineola) to travel to Belmont racetrack. There's some doubt as to whether the connection was ever actually used.
As I read about it, the original plan was to provide regular LIRR service into downtown Manhattan using that connection. August Belmont was on the LIRR Board of Directors at the time, but the complete connection was never made.
BTW, isn't the LIRR built to IND/BMT specs?
Bob Sklar
The LIRR electric equipment at the time, ie the MP-41s, sure were able to run into IRT tunnels, as they were a modification of the IRT subway car design (I think). The Flatbush Ave line, when it was dropped underground, was built to the clearnces of these cars. When the MP-54s came around, I believe they had to widen the tunnels. I think they had to again when the 70s or 75s came around and again when they M-1s came too. The 54s were about 54 feet long, the 70s were around 70 feet long, the M-1s are somewhere between 75 and 85 I think.
All the interior shots of MP-41s I've seen showed them with straps on the ceiling, and more of a subway style seating plan, than just rows of seats. The rational over the sizes (they were visably smaller than later equipment) was that they could be used to go into manhattan via the irt. Of course, the PRR bought out the LIRR around this time and Penn station was built.
In any case, the last MP-41s were retired in the 50's, and wewre last used on Mitchele Field shuttle runs. They were replaced on that line by a pair of RDCs, which lasted a few years (not many), and were sold...
The connection was never used in revenue operation. I thought I saw the location of that link last month while looking out through the side of the 4 train I was on just before it pulled into Atlantic Ave. I didn't realize you can plainly see the LIRR station at various points from the subway station until last month.
The track map shows a crossover through all four tracks right at the spot where the LIRR connection was.
Yes, but commuters walk all over the area where the trains would go vs. up/down stairs should they make the link active.
It does point to a CHEEP way to add service from Brooklyn & Queens, i.e. give the line to the TA and make it an express route from Jamaica to Flatbush, then in to Manahattan. You could even give them one of the two Babylon lines & run the subway out to Laurelton or Rosedale, i.e. just before the lines merge back. This would make the LIRR Banylon service a bit more difficult ... and provoke the Rockaway & Long Beach folks to say NIMBY ... they have three elect. lines plus a diesel operation going out those four tracks.
But this Babylond customer thinks it would be a great idea for South Eastern Queens.
Mr t__:^)
Could someone tell me exactly how:
A-The original Times Square station was turned into an express station.
B-How they turned the crosstown line into the shuttle.
C-How much disruption/shutdowns did it cause.
I'm pretty sure no one here was alive when that happened, but if you were and if anyone has knowledge, please help.
Most likely the Broadway-7th Av. line from Times Sq. south and the Lexington Av. line from Grand Central north were built just before the conversion was done. On the shuttle today, track 2 is completely eliminated, except for a portion which serves as a switch between tracks 1 and 3 near Grand Central. The area occupied by track 2 is now covered by platform at both shuttle stations, as are portions of the area occupied by track 3. The Times Sq. station appears to be about four cars long and the portion of the Grand Central station in use today appears to be about the same. The remainder of the Grand Central station is presumably covered by the corridor leading to the rest of the Grand Central complex.
As to disruption, I don't know what would have happened, except that the original S-shaped line would have been closed just long enough to sever the original track connections to the shuttle, except for those which remain today. The Broadway-7th Av. and Lexington Av. lines would have begun operation after that was accomplished. The shuttle would probably have been closed long enough to rebuild the tracks and platforms without too much disruption, as the Flushing Line already existed (probably opened about 1915).
Bob Sklar
Some time ago, I suggested adding 5th and 6th Avenue stations on the shuttle (direct connect to 6th Avenue line), extending it through Grand Central to another station over the Lex Line, then sending it on from there along 43rd St. The Flushing line would be extended west. The context was a discussion of crosstown service, and the 42nd St trolley.
I was in Grand Central not too long ago. I got off the Lex, walked up the stairs, and then over to the shuttle. It appears that the shuttle is one level up from the Lexington Line, true? Did the orignial curved connection go up a grade relative to the street, or is 42nd St going down there?
Larry,
The Lexington line is probably deeper due to the old trolley tunnel (now used by cars) under Park Av. from 33rd to 40th Sts. Therefore the shuttle sloped down towards Lexington Av. The grade is visible if you ride the downtown (6) from Grand Central and look out the rear storm door. After the line straightens out under Park Av. the shuttle track enters from your right side.
Bob Sklar
At 33rd St., the express tracks, which are directly beneath the old tunnel, are lower than the local tracks. The Murray Hill tunnel starts just north of the station. Both tracks in the same direction share the same tunnel, with no pillars. Just before the line bears right to enter Grand Central, the original ROW for the northbound local track ramps up and to the left. Grand Central Tower occupies that area today. I took an uptown 6 from Union Square last month just to check it out.
I would imagine that service disruption was kept to a minimum, if that. Keep in mind that the Broadway el in Brooklyn was upgraded to subway standards at about the same time with no service disruptions at all. That was the mentality back then. Same thing with Chicago's Jackson Park L branch when mezzanines were added at stations - the trackwork was jacked up and additional steel column supports were put in place with no service disruption.
BTW, the original line went through the basement of the Belmont Hotel; supposedly, the location where the spur track branched off is still there.
The original Times Square station was not made express, it was made into the shuttle station with one of the express trackways filled in to serve as a platform. A new station was built on the 7th Ave line.
-Hank
When the MTA starts receiving the R-142 cars for the IRT,the rumor mill has it that some of the R-62s are going to the Flushing Line...Just of curiosity exactly how do they accomplish this??? I am assuming that Queensboro Plaza is involved in some way......
If that does happen, the cars will come up from the Coney Island yard, up the Sea Beach line to Queensboro Plaza. There they will switch over to the Flushing tracks.
Absolutely right.
This type of move reminds me of a very weird night waiting for an N train at Lexington Avenue:
It was approx. 12:30 AM and I was at Lex waiting for an N back to Queens. This was when the E and F were running on the N line on weekends. Well, first 1 F and then 1 E passed by. I was sure the next train had to be an N or an R, but next what comes rumbling through but a #7 train on its way home! I thought I had too much to drink that night!
This leads me to a question: How are the switches moved so the #7 can go onto the Flushing Line at QbP? How do they know when to move them?
Communication is probably done by radio from a dispatcher to the tower, so they know in advance that 7 is being moved from, say, Coney Island Shops to Corona Yard. I don't think there are any route selection consoles for that switch at Queensboro Plaza.
There are route selectors there ,right at the end of the station. It's hard to see it from the platform because of the old tower there.When you leave Lexington ave Queensbound ,the N train doesn't use the punch(route selector).So if Queensboro Plaza master tower isn't expecting an N train,they will stop you behind Homesignal#4 at the 11st cut to see who you are.They do that to prevent a possible wrong line up which has happened.They find out that it is a Corona transfer, line it up into QBP,then proceed to Corona yd.
I stand corrected. BTW, does anyone know what they do if a rerouted Queens-bound E train is at 42nd St. and needs to be switched to the Queens track? The switch from the express track is still there, but I didn't see a route selector console at the express track. I don't even think there is an interlocking signal. There are consoles at the local track, of course. There are also signs posted which explain signal characteristics, which I hadn't seen before.
At 42st on A4 TK,you can be crossed over to resume your regular route to Queens. The towerperson at 42nd st can see what you are if you are on the express track so there is no need for a route request button.At the car markers are descriptions of what line-up to accept.The switch is just north of the station at the same point where you would cross over if you're pn the local track. A4 and A2 tracks merge with D4track which is the queens bound Eline.They merge depending which way the switch is set.
Also,via concourse yard down the D line to either F3 track at pacific st to turn and operate via montague st tube and broadway line to queensboro plaza. Or they could opertate the same route except turn then at Ninth ave middle track, upper or lower level.
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Does anyone from further down the line know what held up Manhattan-bound service on the Brighton Line this morning after 8:15? Trains only got to Seventh Avenue every 6-7 minutes, all so full that we couldn't board. (When my eighteen minutes ran over I gave up and took the IRT.) We were told 'an incident' on the express track north of Parkside was forcing Qs to switch to the local at Church.
Sorry got the 7:35 D (or so)and had no problem. Yesterday there were problems as well, wife got in at 10am leaving 8am and it normaly takes an hour. I had the 6:30 Q and flew in.
Last week Thursday we had an "incident" at 7th Ave with a train BIE, I think it was a bad signal that a trip arm came up under a train (listen to conductors radio traffic and the fact signal maintainers were all over 7th Ave after service was restored 40 mintues later train crawling though, bodies flat against the wall >G<.) but I could be wrong.
I've been taking different routes lately, but I'm going to stop taking the Brighton. Its been screwed up every time I'd tried. In the past I'd blamed the fact that half the Manhattan Bridge tracks are out, assuming they needed to increase service and could not. In fact, I just got a bunch of tables (Hub Bound Data) and it turns out that the number of trains over the Manhattan Bridge at peak hour was cut from 28 in 1994 (presumably at or near the max with just two tracks) to just 22 in 1996. My guess is that most of that came out of the Brighton, since the B can't go much lower. Unless bridge conditions forced the cut, then the Brighton is jammed by design.
Yesterday was terrible, but it was the first bad morning I've had in a while--since the R-40 slants were moved to the Q, the equipment failures that were so regular on the bridge line have been much less frequent. Plus, if I keep my eyes open at DeKalb I can usually snag a seat when half the train changes for the tunnel line. So I still have guarded enthusiasm.
I would guess the reduction in peak trains across the bridge from 28 in '94 to 22 in '96 was due to speed limit reductions--I don't know how fast the trains went over it in '94, but they sure proceed pretty carefully now.
Let me do a "Larry" here ... We've been talking about specific cities outside of NYC where rail transit failed or died for some reason, but what about the underlying problem of URBAN SPRAWL and it's effect on mass transit.
I can add my own example ... Middletown CT ... the downtown is basically dead. There used to be trolleys and heavy rail there. Now there's just one or two bus lines, mainly brought back for some new senior housing (gets them to the Mall vs. downtown, get my point). Oh yes, I think Grayhound comes by once or twice a day. But other then that you need a rowboat to get to Hartford, New Haven or Saybrook if you don't have a car.
- Are the small & medium cities doomed to be replaced by wall-to-wall malls ?
- How does mass transit fit into this new cosmopolitan society ? Does that mean the bus or mini-van will replace the rail (heavy) ? Could we see the re-emergence of the intererban rail car/trolley ?
- Closer to home: How will the mission of the Metro-North, LIRR, NJT, & LI Bus need to change to SERVE the customers ?
Mr t__:^)
"- Are the small & medium cities doomed to be replaced by wall-to-wall malls ?
- How does mass transit fit into this new cosmopolitan society? Does that mean the bus or mini-van will replace the rail (heavy)? Could we see the re-emergence of the intererban rail car/trolley?"
The answer to these questions is in the fact that many medium-sized cities are realizing that the car is leading to congestion and sprawl, and that buses alone are not the solution. They are building light rail, which could be considered a re-emergence of the trolley when it runs in city streets and of the interurban when it runs on private ROW, especially if the new light rail serves suburbs as well as the city proper. The bus routes, instead of being eliminated, are reorganized as feeders to the light rail system. Park-&-ride lots at stations at the edge of the city and in suburbs bring people who would otherwise drive downtown onto the trains.
If a sprawled city like Dallas can make a success out of light rail, anyone can. If light rail can attract people out of their cars in a Southern California city like San Diego, then light rail can definitely compete with the car.
The cities that have built light rail systems have had both commercial and residential real estate booms in and near their downtowns (Buffalo being the exception to the rule). Light rail hasn't stopped the expansion into the suburbs, but it has made downtowns much more competitive with suburban malls and office parks.
Mass transit isn't cost effective without a mass -- ie. a downtown with hundreds of thousands of workers. Since highly clustered development costs much more to build than low-rise buildings on farms, there has to be a reason why people are willing to pay the price. There are only a few places left where that is the case, with NYC the most dynamic. So mass transit's role economic role here will not change.
In many other areas, I think transit has already been reduced to a social service role -- high cost mobility for low income people. That's certainly true of Tulsa, where my parents live. The only thing the bus system does is bring a few poor people from the north side to low wage jobs on the south side.
But, as I've said, some areas have decided they want a downtown. Manhattan provides the economic base of the Metro Area. But even if the Metro Area's economic base is in office and industrial parks elsewhere (ie. Dallas, Denver, Seattle, San Diego) states seem to have decided they want a downtown for entertainment and recreation purposes, and for the young people to live in. If the metro area is rich enough, they can afford it. So that could be a third role for light rail -- not just social service, not a major part of the economy, just a way to get to the entertainment center -- kind of like the monorail at DisneyWorld.
[ ... some areas have decided they want a downtown. Manhattan provides the economic base of the Metro Area. But even if the Metro Area's economic base is in office and industrial parks elsewhere (ie. Dallas, Denver, Seattle, San Diego) states seem to have decided they want a downtown for entertainment and recreation purposes, and for the
young people to live in. If the metro area is rich enough, they can afford it. So that could be a third role for light rail -- not
just social service, not a major part of the economy, just a way to get to the entertainment center -- kind of like the monorail at DisneyWorld.]
Interesting idea - but it doesn't seem likely that an "entertainment-oriented" mass transit system would be any more cost effective than a Tulsa-style "social service" system. Only if there are large numbers of people using mass transit for commuting a la NYC subway will the cost recovery ratio be anything to write home about. And all in all, if they've got to pay taxes/tolls to support mass transit, most people probably would prefer that it serve social-type needs than be a way for young trendoids to get to their clubs and cafes.
Re: Cost effectiveness of mass transit vs. tolls/taxes for roads.
We keep comming back to the same problem, i.e. the mind set that the short range rights of the indivadual and his/her car are more important than the long view.
By long view I include: Enviornment (CNG/Elect vs. gasoline),and congestion (at some point roads in general will become more and more like the LIE, Cross-Bronx, BQE, etc.). There are other issues that won't come to my mind right now, sorry, but you get the point.
It's hartening to hear success stories from a few towns. Could it be that these folks are recently from Europe, and elsewhere outside the US, where they have a different mind set ? Or do they have some magic way of getting the public to go along with it. Maybe it's that they aren't running for a higher office ever since they've been in the job?
But seriously, I've enjoyed this & hope to hear some more from the night shift !
Mr t__:^)
(Small, entertainment-oriented system not cost effective. Only a system serving a major downtown cost effective.)
Didn't say it would be.
It would be a luxury good, like a baseball stadium, convention center, opera house, or major public park. If the system is small relative to the region's economy, however, the taxes needed to support it aren't much even if almost the entire system is supported by taxes.
Ie. the St. Louis light rail system that takes you to a ballgame downtown and takes tourists from Downtown to the airport. In terms of getting to Downtown St Louis, it's insignificant. In terms of the metro area economy, Downtown St Louis is insignificant. But, hey, they wanted one, and that's what its for.
Disney and the monorail are examples of integrated planning. You can't drive your car in the Magic Kingdom because it creates negative impacts. Pedestrian environments where people interact, supported by transit is how it works. At Disney, you check your car at the door.
Urban communities that rely on transit are making a comeback. The Park Slope in NYC, Wrigleyville in Chicago and some others are notable.
Midsized cities are very different. The old rust belt industial cities have better transit systems than the south and the west. Some are workfare systems some serve real function. The demand that transit service be self supporting does not make much sense though, since the ownership of cars is heavily subsidized by taxes. Most places good road are a high public priority so they are paid for. Transit Users are often a constituancy that cannot be heard by policy makers, because they are too busy making ends meet.
[Urban communities that rely on transit are making a comeback. The Park Slope in NYC, Wrigleyville in Chicago and some others
are notable. ]
How is Park Slope different than other communities in NYC? In what way is Park Slope relying on transit now that it hadn't been before?
[Transit Users are often a constituancy that cannot be heard by policy makers, because they are too busy making ends meet. ]
Are you implying that roads get more funding than Mass Transit because the people who use them have more time to lobby the government?
(How is Park Slope different)? According the 1990 census of population, a higher share of the workforce in Park Slope used the subway to get to work than in any other neighborhood it the city. It is a place that very affluent people move to with the expectation of using the subway.
(Less successful in lobbying the government). I think transit has done pretty well, given that most people don't use it and don't care about people who do. Basically, transportation has done poorly in the past three decades relative to health care and, to a lesser extent, education and defense in the competition for public money. In NYC, we stopped improving roads and transit at the same time.
The road builders assn. AAA, Highway user groups(trucking assn's) , Chamber of Commerce groups all actively lobby for highway funds. In larger cities the governments do well for transit and cities like NY, Chi. Phil. Boston, etc have done a good job getting elected officials to recognize transit needs. In smaller cities it is the transit staff, and transit unions that are the voice of transit. Transit dependent people do not articulate their needs well.
[(Small, entertainment-oriented system not cost effective. Only a system serving a major downtown cost effective.)
Didn't say it would be.
It would be a luxury good, like a baseball stadium, convention center, opera house, or major public park. If the system is small relative to the region's economy, however, the taxes needed to support it aren't much even if almost the entire system is supported by taxes.]
I don't see the point in spending taxpayer dollars on a "toy" system like that. It would make a lot more sense to use the money where it is needed - most notably, for the (equally non-cost-effective) "social service" type transit system.
I don't know about all the cities that have built new light rail systems, but San Diego's transit system has about 250,000 riders per day (70 million riders a year), which does not sound to me like a system meant only to take people to amusement areas.
It's very easy to discount cities that don't have as busy a downtown as a New York, Chicago, Boston, or San Francisco. But all of the light rail cities (Dallas, Denver, Portland, San Diego, etc.) DO have a large concentration of office buildings in the downtown area. Even in Chicago, where downtown is still probably the single biggest concentration of white-collar jobs, and the transit system is very viable, probably more office jobs are located outside the city than in it. So the distinction between cities with a real downtown and those without is not as clear cut as it first seems.
When Dallas and Portland talk about their light rail, one of the points they seem very proud of is that some companies have decided to put their offices (*not* just bars, or yuppies looking for lofts) downtown rather than in a suburban office park at least partly because the light rail was present.
Perhaps, instead of building light rail *just* to bring people downtown to the bars, ballparks, and museums (which IS a legitimate goal, and not a mere "toy train" as someone else put it), the planners figure that the first step to building a "real" downtown is to have the transit and downtown entertainment in place, then get people to ride it to ballgames and museums, realize the system is safe and efficient, and maybe businesses looking for increased office space will decide to locate downtown.
[Perhaps, instead of building light rail *just* to bring people downtown to the bars, ballparks, and museums (which IS a legitimate goal, and not a mere "toy train" as someone else put it), the planners figure that the first step to building a "real" downtown is to have the transit and downtown entertainment in place, then get people to ride it to ballgames and museums, realize the system is safe and efficient, and maybe businesses looking for increased office space will decide to locate downtown.]
That might not be a bad idea, but there is some risk involved. If the city builds the light rail, attracts some bars-and-museum riders, but then (for whatever reason) does not attract more offices to downtown, it will be left with an underutilized, "white elephant" light rail system. It's entirely possible that these fears won't come to pass. Portland and San Diego have been lucky. But should there be more systems built, I wouldn't be surprised to see some failures.
Re: White elephant underutilized light rail ...
I keep comming back to the model OUTSIDE the US where single & double light rail cars happily ply the streets of the medium as well as larger cities.
It would seem that the long term future of DOWNTOWN is wedded to mass transit. So, if downtown mayors don't wake up to this and other problems of downtown, then the urban sprawl and mall building will continue to such the life out of downtown. Keying off Windy City John's comment about white collar jobs there ... industral parks with big office building complexes can be just as easily built in the suburbs to result in more of that sucking action.
Let me site two examples on LI: Route 110 vs. Garden City. The former is doing quite well thank you, while the latter is in a lot of trouble with BIG stores moving out of late. I haven't been able to put my finger on what the problem is ... LIRR goes there, several LI Bus lines traverse the area, there's lots of parking, it's more than a Mall area with lots of office space. Maybe it's the preception that only RICH folks shop there ? Just around the corner is Old Country Road & Roosevelt Field (lots of healthly stores). Would more mass transit help ?
Mr t__:^)
[Let me site two examples on LI: Route 110 vs. Garden City. The former is doing quite well thank you, while the latter is in a lot of trouble with BIG stores moving out of late. I haven't been able to put my finger on what the problem is ... LIRR goes there, several LI Bus lines traverse the area, there's lots of parking, it's more than a Mall area with lots of office space. Maybe it's the preception that only RICH folks shop there ? Just around the corner is Old Country Road & Roosevelt Field (lots of healthly stores). Would more mass transit help ?]
Interesting coincidence, another Long Islander recently mentioned Garden City's decline on nyc.transit. He thought that competition from Roosevelt Field was the main problem. I'd go along with that, R.F. is certainly a big draw.
This argument -- use entertainment and light rail to bring back the vitality, then other commercial activity will follow because the central city will have a comparative advantage -- was used by Baltimore, Denver, and San Diego (and I guess, Hartford) to justify new stadiums, light rail, or both together Downtown. And that is the Mayor's argument for a new stadium on the West Side, perhaps along with an extension of the #7 train or some sort of new service on 34th St. It worked in some cases. Hasn't done the job in Buffalo, however.
Re: ... use entertainment and light rail to bring back the vitality,
... Hartford, what did they do there, mass transit wise, I know they knocked down a lot of building in the central core ? The Capital looks nice & there's a fine park near it, but I didn't see any light rail the last time I was there.
Mr t__:^)
[Re: ... use entertainment and light rail to bring back the vitality,
... Hartford, what did they do there, mass transit wise, I know they knocked down a lot of building in the central core ?
The Capital looks nice & there's a fine park near it, but I didn't see any light rail the last time I was there.]
Larry probably meant the proposed Patriots stadium. There's no light rail in Hartford, although there were plans at one time to use an abandoned rail line that runs to Bloomfield for light rail (nothing ever came of it).
Nor would transit work in Hartford. Transit has to have a market, and that market is either a) people who are too poor to have cars ie. the social service function and b) places where a transit trip is faster, easier, and cheaper than an auto trip even for those who have autos ie. dense Downtowns. Cleveland and Denver found that lots of people took transit to the stadia when they opened, but less once everyone found out how easy it was to drive and park in those Downtowns.
Making it harder to drive and park doesn't work either -- unless an area is so attractive business will stay anyway. Otherwise, they'll just move to an office park or shopping mall where everyone gets a space.
[Nor would transit work in Hartford. Transit has to have a market, and that market is either a) people who are too poor to have cars ie. the social service function and b) places where a transit trip is faster, easier, and cheaper than an auto trip even for those who have autos ie. dense Downtowns. Cleveland and Denver found that lots of people took transit to the stadia when they opened, but less once everyone found out how easy it was to drive and park in those Downtowns.]
Hartford does have both of these transit markets. There's certainly a demand for social service-type transit, given the city's high poverty rate.* As far as b) is concerned, while it's hardly like Manhattan, weekday parking in downtown Hartford is just enough of a problem for transit to be worthwhile. In fact, as of several years ago there were a number of commuter bus runs to downtown from suburban park-'n'-ride lots. Hartford's job base was grievously damaged during the recession of the early 1990s (or, as it's sometimes called in the area, the Great Recession), but as far as I know the commuter buses are still running.
None of this is to say that light rail would make sense. Hartford's residential and commuter population is low enough for buses to do the job. Light rail would be an unnecessary extravagance.
* = Hartford's sky-high poverty rate is somewhat misleading. For a city of close to 140,000, Hartford is geographically very small, around 15 square miles. Which means that middle-class neighborhoods that ordinarily would be within city limits are instead in suburban towns.
Re: [For a city of close to 140,000, Hartford is geographically very small, around 15 square miles. Which means that middle-class neighborhoods that ordinarily would be within city limits are instead in suburban towns.]
I have to agree with Peter here ... my first two real jobs were in Hartford & I commuted 30 miles from the South. It was a 30 min trip back in the 60s, an hour now (I was younger then & had a heavy foot). People come in from the four points on the compus to get to Hartford. The parkway that runs North/South & the one East bring in a lot of folks from outside the city. The city does sprall to the West (Farmington/Bloomfield/etc.) so I can understand why they would be thinking about light rail there.
BUT what about the interurban light rail concept to/from Hartford ?
Maybe as Larry says ... if they can drive & park they won't ride mass transit. I still come back to the LONG VIEW that isn't in big/medium size city's (Hartford) best interest to invest in light rail so that there is a city in 10/20 years ???
Mr t__:^)
The transit set-up in Boston -- where coincidentally I just returned from last weekend -- is such that although it has a combination of traditional subway w/Interurban trolleys, the commuter (and tourist crowds) can easily access those modes of transit due to the MBTA's "foresight" of constructing massive parking facilities at many of their transit lines' major stations. On some lines parking facilities are the norm (in more suburban communities like Braintree and Riverside).
The building of large parking facilities in a city like New York would be impractical due to present city-block orientations. An entire city block would have to be set aside at each major station for traditional car-commuters to take advantage of "park-n-ride" type deals. Currently, both the LIRR and MetroNorth have these features. I'm sure that other municipalities across the country have similar deals for their inner-city and suburban customers.
The severe housing-shortage and congestion of housing stock prevent the building of commuter parking facilities. Some zoning laws would have to be amended to raze dilapidated property to make way for such construction.
cya BMTman
[I can add my own example ... Middletown CT ... the downtown is basically dead. There used to be trolleys and heavy rail there. Now there's just one or two bus lines, mainly brought back for some new senior housing (gets them to the Mall vs. downtown, get my point). Oh yes, I think Grayhound comes by once or twice a day. But other then that you need a rowboat to get to Hartford, New Haven or Saybrook if you don't have a car.]
Interesting thing you mention Middletown, as I worked at the courthouse in town from 1991 to 1993. I'd never thought of the downtown as being in that bad shape. For example, at least in 1993, there seemed to be more decent restaurants in downtown Middletown than in downtown Waterbury, even though Waterbury has more than twice the population. Wesleyan University's campus on the edge of downtown Middletown probably helps stabilize the area.
One thing that Middletown did have was a rather large skell population. But that was no surprise, as Connecticut's largest Funny Farm is on the edge of town and a lot of the deinstitutionalized types made it no farther than downtown.
By the way, you're definitely right about the paucity of mass transit in Middletown. I could imagine that a carless person would be in pretty tough straits.
see today's NYT for further thoughts
Today in the Lexinton Avenue Tunnel the train that we were on had an aggresive driver. During the straightaway between 86 and 125 the driver began to speed. He was going so fast that the train was swaying and the teain jumped up. The guy was going at least 50-55 miles per hour. To top it off there was no One/Two shot GT. The straightaway on the Brighton,Cental park west, and the Broadway Line are perfect places for aggresive drivers. There is no need for these drivers and they are dangerous to everybody in the system. There should be several two shot GT's along these straightaways. To slow down the aggresive driver.
>He was going so fast that the train was
swaying and the teain jumped up. The guy was going at least 50-55 miles per hour
Noooooooooooo. No more timers! Make the most of the post, man!
50-55 MPH? Maybe 50. Did you look at the speedometer or guess>
Okay Jeff do away with Rule 66 (b) right??, and I've seen they way you drive a train >G<.
Quit crying. The track is a straightaway. There is no need for timers to be installed. The train is in no danger of derailing.If the train jumped up as you claim, then the emergency brakes would apply.
There should be more places (i.e. straightaways or relative straightaways) where 50 MPH should be allowed. I happen to enjoy it when a skilled motorman takes his train to the limit.
BTW mike - do you ever get to run your train at speed? Watching from the railfan window (if it is available) when the train is at speed is certainly quite enjoyable.
Wayne
Yeah I did a few times.One of my favorite stretches is D3 track between QP and Roosevelt ave.South of 65st where you go downhill, the speed is posted at 35mph. I used to take that curve 40-45mph.The 60st tube queensbound is good also.You don't even have to take a brake for the timers to clear.
Speed can be fun, no? (But safety is always priority one)
I've been on many a Slant 40, R44 and R46 that has taken that one at 40-plus; at that speed the fairly broad curve is somewhat exaggerated.
The Slant R40s especially seemed to lurch as they entered it. My commuting days on the "F" ran from 1972 to 1974 and I have ridden countless times along that stretch since.
Sounds like the timers in the 60th St. tunnel are similar to those in the 14th Street tunnel. That was a rocket ride I had back on 11/7 through there (though the rest of the trip was the usual local stuff-he DID swing around the Montrose/Morgan turn at about 25...)
Was your run with an R46 or an R32?
Ahh...if I only were a motorman, mike...
Wayne
both. did they speed up the L line?
The "L" line is basically the same as it ever was- fast through the tunnel and slow to moderate speed everywhere else. Now and then, you'll get a motorman who'll do maybe 30 or 35 between Myrtle and Halsey or take the curve north of Wilson a little above posted speed.
There's a no-key-by zone between Grand and Graham - every train I've been on since 1996 has taken this stretch at no more than 5 to 10 MPH,
especially on the citybound side. That curve outside of Graham is very tight.
Speaking of the "L" I see that the east end exit at Lorimer Street has been re-opened. Must check out the renovation - the old-style tile has survived.
Wayne
Ah, yes, Lorimer St. I used to board and disembark there on my weekly Saturday trips to the city from 1967 thru 1970, and haven't been back to that station since then. The Manhattan-bound entrance on the north side of Metropolitan Ave. used to say, "To 14th St.-6th Ave.", more than 35 years after the 8th Ave. station opened. It went on to say, "Token required at all times. No agent on duty." There was an iron maiden turnstile cage; the token booth was permanently closed. I could just make out a "Tokens: 15 cents each" sign, most of which had peeled off.
Interestingly enough, I have ridden the Canarsie east of Lorimer St. only once - on July 20, 1967 - which was also the first time time I ever rode on that line, and my first experience with the BMT standards.
Wow that's a long time to have not ridden on one line, although I hadn't ridden on the #2 to Flatbush Avenue from January 28, 1969 to February 28, 1998. There are still a few spots in the system that I have only been to once ("R" south of 59th Street Brooklyn, #3 east of Utica Avenue, #6 north of 177th-Parkchester).
If you want to take an "armchair ride" on the "L", just go to
The Canarsie Line Page. Everything is pretty much the same as it was back then, with a few exceptions, duly noted.
Lorimer Street: Light blue, white, tan, parchment brown tile band
with grey, gold, slate blue background and yellow & brown accents.
(Icon background is maroon.) Some of the "L"s are stretched where the tile band "stair-steps", esp. on the Manhattan-bound side. A lovely example of the whimsical craft of Squire J. Vickers.
Wayne
I can top that. My only experience on the IRT in the Bronx was a trip to the Bronx Zoo on August 9, 1967, which was also the first time I ever rode on the IRT (5 from 51st St; 2 from the zoo back to Port Authority). Those trains moved! I haven't been back on that line since then, but have contemplated taking a 5 out to Dyre Ave. if the Redbirds are still around next fall.
There are also still parts of some lines I've never ridden on for one reason or another, including the Rockaway and Franklin Ave. Shuttles. I never rode on the Culver Shuttle, either.
Agreeable I wasn't that I was scared. I love that speed it is just that my friends were scared. I know a drive on the 4 line that I go. He normally has the R-62 head number 1350. On the curve between Bedford Park and Mosholu Parkway that looks like a V he takes it around 35 miles per hour when the speed limit is 25. I would like to meet a motorman from the Q/B line because that is the two lines that I have fidden on once.
We all know which cars you'd insist on operating, Wayne. And on an express route, too, I'll bet.
I would have my bids in stamped "Q" or "L" or "N" for sure!
Wayne //mrSlantR40//
I would have loved to have been a conductor back when the R-1/9s and R-10s (on the A) were still around. There's something about those trigger boxes that I found very appealing. Had I been an operator, I would have put in for express routes exclusively.
See this is what I'm talking about. I mean I've heard a lot about downgrading the speed limit in areas where accidents have accured, but I never hear about speed upgrades. Me, I love when the #2 redbird express takes flight down broadway. I love it when any train on any line attempts to break the sound barrier. It gives me a rush, makes me feel like I am getting to where I'm going faster and I feel perfectly safe. I don't fear my life in the NYC subway anytime because the train is going fast. I entrust the train operator because I know that they have been properly trained and they probley wouldn't endanger their own life. U won't see me complaining that the train is going to fast. Yes speed limits must be placed but they are only their to limit speed (for safety). (But sometimes speedlimits are just asking to be broken). I'm sure that a lot of streches of track have a low speed limit such as some sections of the "L" for example where the track is capiable of handling faster moving trains. It's just good to hear that at least in some sections of a few lines are being sped up. Even if it is the driver speeding things up.
Thomas
I thought going fast on a straightaway was goodness. IMHO, this isn't worth complaining about.
--Mark
Oh, come on. That's the ultimate rush - an express train rocketing along. I'd love to see the R-38s get up to 50 along CPW the way the R-10s used to. I rode a 5 of Redbirds up the Lex last month because that stretch has been touted as being a racetrack, and was disappointed to say the least. That train never got past 35. Same thing on the way back from 125th on a 4 of R-62s. There were a lot of Yankee fans on their way to the victory parade, BTW.
I wish I could have been on the train you were on.
Looking at www.lirr.org/nyct/sir/index.html (okay I use the mirror site) I was looking at (new?) Staten Island Railway public timetable and noticed that the Pleasnt Plains stop is listed twice with an Arival and Departure.
Any one know why?
It would seem Great Kills (midway point) would be a place to hold trains. Could this be related to OPTO on the SIR?
Though not all trains hold up, I've see 2 to 5 minute differences at the Plains.
Ideas??
Stapleton 5:36 - 5:53 - 6:09 6:21 6:36 6:51
Clifton 5:38 -E 5:55 -E 6:11 6:23 6:38 6:53
Grasmere 5:41 -X 5:58 -X 6:14 6:26 6:41 6:56
Old Town 5:43 -P 6:00 -P 6:16 6:28 6:43 6:58
Dongan Hills 5:45 -R 6:02 -R 6:18 6:30 6:45 7:00
Jefferson Av 5:47 -E 6:04 -E 6:20 6:32 6:47 7:02
Grant City 5:49 -S 6:06 -S 6:22 6:34 6:49 7:04
New Dorp 5:51 -S 6:08 -S 6:24 6:36 6:51 7:06
Oakwood Hts 5:53 - 6:10 - 6:26 6:38 6:53 7:08
Bay Terrace 5:55 - 6:12 - 6:28 6:40 6:55 7:10
Great Kills 5:57 6:05 6:14 6:20 6:30 6:42 6:57 7:12
Eltingville - 6:07 - 6:22 - 6:44 6:59 7:14
Annadale - 6:09 - 6:24 - 6:46 7:01 7:16
Huguenot - 6:11 - 6:26 - 6:48 7:03 7:18
Princes Bay - 6:13 - 6:28 - 6:50 7:05 7:20
Pleasant Plains (arr) - 6:15 - 6:30 - 6:52 7:07 7:22
Pleasant Plains (lv) - 6:17 - 6:30 - 6:52 7:09 7:26
Richmond Valley - 6:19 - 6:32 - 6:54 7:11 7:28
Nassau - 6:21 - 6:34 - 6:56 7:13 7:30
Atlantic 6:23 - 6:36 - 6:58 7:15 7:32
Tottenville (arr) - 6:25 - 6:38 - 7:00 7:17 7:34
That schedule is at least 2 years old, used during the Mill Creek Bridge Rehab.
Recently SIR has installed frames with the schedules at the stations; this is a first.
-Hank
I am very new here. I also work for the New York City Transit Auth. Yesterday I posted a comment in response to Mr. Hehehe, about his inappropriate reference to "Jewish Accountants". Today, on my E-Mail, I received an E-Mail from Mr. Hehehe. The message from Mr. Hehehe was vile, anti semetic and made threats involving the use of guns.
I am not an expert on constitutional law but since the E-Mail was a threat based on Religeon, I will turn the matter over to the Suffolk County Police Bias Unit for investigation at 10:00 AM tomorrow. In addition, all NYCT employees are bound by a code of conduct which, in some cases, extends to their off duty activities. Since he posted his original message purporting to be a NYCT employee, I believe that this conduct would fall into that catagory. If so, once I have identified him, I will seek to have appropriate disciplinary action brought against Mr. Hehehe.
In the meantime, if anyone else, who has posted recently, has received a similar anti-semetic message that includes the threat of violence, please foward it to me ASAP. It'll be passed on to Detective Jeff Rubin of the Suffolk County Bias Unit for investigation.
Thank You
If his email address is accurate, just have the PD notify America On-line, and they'll take care of it. You should also notify AOL yourself.
-Hank
He sent me that same hate mail as well from AOL his AOL account, I sent it to TOS email as well. He then went and got a Hotmail address to continue the slander and personal threat to my person.
Any AOL member that gets email from this person should read the following.
To quote from AOL's Online Saftey and Security:
An e-mail violation is any use of AOL e-mail that negatively affects another member's online experience. This includes such offenses as using abusive or defamatory language, sending chain letters, and impersonating an AOL employee to get your password or billing information.
E-mail violators risk having their AOL accounts permanently cancelled. To report a violation, forward the offensive e-mail to this screen name: TOSEmail1.
Thanks to all of you who have posted in support of my position. Here is an update of where things stand. Due to unforeseem circumstances, I was unable to keep my appointment today witht he Suffolk County Bias Unit but have every intention to do so tomorrow. I also spoke to the Director of labor Relations for the NYCT and he assures me that since this person has indicated that he is a NYCT employee and since he has made public anti-semetic comments, if he is actually an employee, he is subject to disciplinary action under rule #10a which covers inappropriate conduct on or off duty.
I received one E-Mail from another manager of the NYCT who also lives in Suffolk County and also received similar hate mail but on this individual's HotMail account. He is joining me in my efforts. I also received another AOL message from Mr. Hehehe asking for the address of the Suffolk PD Bias Unit, indicating that he wished to meet me there but also asking that I not make this personal.
To Lou from Brooklyn, It would be very helpful if you would foward any correspondence from this particular individual. Although I'm told that charges would need to be filed in the County of your residence, the messages you got will serve to prove a pattern of conduct, both in the Criminal Justice System and for the TA Labor Relations.
To everyone else, thanks again.
Allen
Allen,
I'll send you the hate mail he sent me. Though in doing so I am in violation of AOL Terms of Service (I think). I'm not going to follow this up in Kings County at this point. He sent two emails though one did threaten me, I can live with it well enough alone.
In addition to Rule 10,
try Rule 11(f) "Employees must not violate any criminal law or commit any illegal act while on or off duty."
>G<
I've sent you copies of the email.
Good Luck
Thanks Lou,
I just got off the phone with the detective handling the case (not the one I originally mentioned). He assures me that charges of Aggrevated Harassment will be filed as soon as this individual has been identified.
I also just spoke to the Director of Labor Relations for the Dept. of Subways and he reitterated that if this individual is in fact an employee, he will be subject to immediate discipline.
Finally, since Hotmail and AOL were the source of the threats, Subtalk will not be involved, except to possibly provide the original postings which have since been deleted.
Thanks Again
> Finally, since Hotmail and AOL were the source of the
> threats, Subtalk will not be involved, except to
> possibly provide the original postings which have
> since been deleted.
The posts that I deleted are gone-- I deleted them before I was aware of your charges and I don't retain deleted posts. I never had a reason to before. Also, the SubTalk system doesn't have information about who posts an item other than what you see (email address and name are provided by the poster).
If any more information is required please contact me privately. If I have to get involved in the investigation I'll be taking the site down for the duration because it is starting to take up too much time to police it.
-Dave
Thanks Allen. You're doing a good thing here.
Below is the URL to an engineering firm that has ties to the Newark Monorail, Boston North Station, Boston Big Dig, Manhattan Bridge, and numerous other projects in the NY Metro area and around the country.
http://www.wai.com/Showcase/index-showcase.html
Also, an article in a newsletter about the Manhattan Bridge
http://www.wai.com/Newsletter/Spring96-insert/wanews1.html
I thought they might intrest some people around here...
-Hank
Heh...If I was the engineering firm involved with the Big Dig, i sure wouldn't be bragging about it. Last I heard, most of Boston was fed up with the chaos that project created. When I was last there with my friend Tony, his only comment about it was "these people are CRAZY!!!"
What exactly does Boston think they are going to achive from it anyway?
(The big dig -- what are they going to achieve anyway?) Are you kidding. Check out www.nemw.org, federal spending. New York State residents get 86 cents back in federal spending for every dollar they put in in federal taxes. New Jersey residents get 69 cents. Massachusetts is usually similarly screwed, but they are up at 92 cents and for a while they were over a dollar. The reason -- the billions the federal government kicked in for the Big Dig, thanks to having Tip O'Neil as Speaker of the House. That put money in a lot of people's pockets, from our pockets.
Not that there isn't a transport connection. Eliminating the elevated highway will make Boston a little nicer. But mostly what its about is patronage. For example, Alan Hevesi appears to be the transportation man for the next Mayoral election. He's hosting all these infrastructure conferences with the building trades, and will presumably get money and help in exchange for some spending later on. Not that we'll get that much for the money, but we'll have to get something, and he'll probably be going up against someone who made promises to Denis Rivera & the hospital workers in the primary, and they've sucked up too much already.
The Big Dig is an incredible project from an engineering perspective. As always there are two sides to the story, but from my perspective (as a Boston resident and one who commutes to NYC very often) this city needs congestion relief. The Big Dig promises to fix two major problems: Unchoking the "central artery" which is a six lane highway running north/south through the city, and completing the connection from the Mass Turnpike (I-90) across to East Boston and Logan Airport. There are many side benefits that will result as well.
You can argue that the cost is outrageous; you can argue that the disruptions in daily life are incredible; and you can argue that it won't be worth it in the end -- that the money should have been spent for other things, such as more mass transit. As I'm sure you know, I will ALWAYS argue for more and better mass transit, but as one who also has to drive in this city sometimes, in my opinion the Big Dig is worth the money and inconvenience. Even though it won't be completely done until 2004 or so, major benefits will be seen as soon as next fall, when an important connector from I-93 to Storrow Drive opens.
At least Boston has addressed a real problem with a real solution, and is doing something about it. I wish I could say the same about NYC and the Second Avenue Subway!
Well, enough Boston flaming. I have to go find my MetroCard, as I'm on my way south, and will be on an by mid-afternoon!
(New York isn't addressing its problems). My understanding is the FEDs are putting up $8 billion for the big dig, over and above the usual transport $ for Mass. NYC is ten times the size of Boston. If the rest of the country were to pay extra taxes to give us $80 billion, you'd get the 2nd Ave subway, the LIRR connection, a new tunnel to NJ, a Manhattan Bridge replacement, etc. etc. Are any congessmen from Mass prepared to support that? And, would Mass have done the big dig with its own money? Hell no!
Larry,
As I'm sure you know, all politics is local. And when the Big Dig was initiated, there was a Speaker O'Neill, not to mention a Kennedy or two involved! Since one of the key aspects of the Big Dig is to finish the Mass Pike (I-90), Interstate Highway System funding comes into play.
Just out of curiosity, where exactly is the Mass Pike supposed to end? I've been in Boston (or Bahston) only a few times in my life, the last two when UConn played BU at Nickerson Field in 1977 and 1979 (before BU dropped football), and took the Pike into the city each time. I got a kick out of seeing PCCs along, I believe, Commonwealth Ave.
How many miles of the Interstate Highway system are there left to build? Probably not too many. The last segment of I-76 in Denver finally opened five years ago, as did I-70 through Glenwood Canyon. It's still too bad I-84 got killed from Hartford to Providence.
The Mass Pike, I-90, will end at Logan Airport in East Boston. The Big Dig folks claim this will be the final portion of the Interstate Highway System.
-tg, in NYC :-) enjoying the Subway and the weather this weekend - tune in!
Hello Todd
Seen anything good down there this weekend? What's running on the "N" to-day? I ride again maybe this Friday (if I can get off work), have to finish up my roll of film...
Wayne
I had my 'fix' of Slant 40's on Friday evening. I got on a at Rock Center, and rode it to W. 4th Street to get my favorite express ride, from 34th to W. 4th. After rocketing southbound, we arrived at W. 4th. Of course, I was in the front car, and wanted to get out. And so did a lot of other people. And a lot of people wanted to get in! But the doors never opened! "Stand clear of the clozingdawz!" said the conductor. People both inside and outside started banging on the dawz which were already clozed and had never been opened! Finally the operator got on the PA and asked the conductor to OPENDADAWZ. I wonder how often this happens?
For my other, and even better adventure this weekend, see the upcoming post, "West Side! East Side! All Around the IRT!"
I too was once prisoner of the Q--more than a year ago, before the 63rd Street tunnel work began, the doors in the last car of the train didn't open at 57th Street and a dozen people and I took an impromptu excursion to Lexington. I groused out the conductor on my way upstairs and he thanked me for bringing the problem to his attention.
And I thought the R-16s were the only cars to have door problems...
One time while on the #2 redbird the doors didnt close completely on the entire ride. When the doors closed, these set of doors stayed about 1 to 2 inches apart. The little light that shows if the door was open or closed was off so I supose that their was something wrong with the door senser.
In my duties as a MOTORMAN on the M line, there are a few places where the end car of a train has a delayed opening or not at all. I wish I knew why. If it is the last car, a crew member will never know. Canal St.( Broad St. bound) on the JMZ is a place it happens to me once in a while in the MOTORMANS car. One time I bought this to the attention to the terminal car inspector of this intermittant problem because several trains went o/s there one day. He had me talk to the Control Center Disp., who in turn had me talk to the Desk Supt. What a mistake that was! He put me down, saying there has to be a delay because the conductor has to point before he puts the key into the slot! So I just play the game. Other hot spots: MOTORMANS car at Chambers St.( bridgebound) JMZ; 36/4 MOTORMANS 8 car stop marker local track Bay Pkwy bound; 36/4 10 car stop marker CI bound (R40 only), 36/4 Manhattan bound last car M trains. There is a pattern here. If it is my car, the doors eventually open. If the doors have a delayed opening tho, the guard light is on when the conductor hits the opening buttons.
This happened when I was on an "L" northbound at Broadway Junction-
#4418 and #4419 refused to open, they were the last two cars in the train. It could have been truly mechanical - they ordered her out of service and she was spotted later resting on the layup near Myrtle,
waiting to head back to the yard.
Wayne
Does this always happen to the first or last car/cars of a train when it does happen? I have a New York Times article from 12 years ago which chronicles the last troubled days of R-16 #6321. This car broke down repeatedly for a variety of reasons including malfunctioning doors, but the article never mentions its relative location in any given train.
Believe it or not, the article also mentions an R-10 which was breaking down every 480 miles or thereabouts!
What is the exact date of the article?
I just might pay a visit to the library and snoop around the microfilms . . .
The article "'Requiem for a Subway Car, no. 6321" appeared in the December 11, 1986 issue of the New York Times.
Hello,
I am in need of some quick help, and was hoping you could help. You all seem to be very experienced in MTA subject. My younger brother is taking a journalism class in college, and he would like to do an investigative journalism report on the Metropolitan Transit Authority...particularly the 7 line - its renovations..and the renovations of the subway systems all over the city.
Could any of you please mail me in the above address, and let me know who my brother could interview for this subject? He/she must be an official person in the MTA. I checked their site, but they are closed and under construction..and have been since 2 weeks ago.
If one of you would be open for interviews and such, that would also be greatly appreciated. I wouldn't be calling...simply writing questions via email, to get a quote or two from riders (which I assume you are)
Thank you very much for your help! I look forward to hearing from you.
Jules
Before I begin, RR means "Regional rail", I use funky lingo!
Anyway, Could someone please tell me why some of the Regional Raill lines(The R3 and R5) have been recently truncated? Is it for the same reason the R8 was cut back from Newtown(lack of diesel equipment)?
And it already begins, Two freinds of mine agree that the voice of the new el (Majel Barrett?:):):)) is becoming QUITE annoying. I have no problem with it as far as it's purpose is for assisting the blind, but to hear "A Train to Frankford-A stops only/Doors are closing/Next stop-Tioga" constantly must try the nerves of many a rider.
If you're referring to the following truncations:
R3 - service ends at Elwyn. It went beyond, to West Chester, at one time, but that hasn't been since the Tunnel opened and the R3 designation was effected (almost 14 years ago to the day, as of today). The West Chester line was electrified but plagued by bad track. It will likely never come back. Every so often you hear talk of revitalization to Wawa or Glen Riddle, but it's just talk.
R5 - service beyond Downingtown. Service went as far as Parkesburg for a while, but it was removed for a strange reason. Trains going out to P'burg couldn't reverse until close to Lancaster due to the track configuration. This caused trains to have a 10-15 mile deadhead in each direction to turn around. A thought was given to extend the service to Lancaster, but this is at least 20 miles beyond SEPTA's jurisdiction, which ends at the Chester-Lancaster Counties line. Thus, no more service beyond Downingtown. The entire line to Harrisburg is electrified.
R5 - service beyond Lansdale, to Quakertown/Bethlehem. This is beyond the wires and service was provided by RDC express runs out of Reading Terminal. This service stopped in, I believe, '80-'81, again before the R5 designation. This has been talked about for revival but, again, a good portion of the line (beyond Quakertown) is outside of SEPTA's jurisdiction, which ends at the Bucks-Lehigh Counties line.
I was just looking over the Is Photography/Video Taping REALLY allowed on SEPTA?? (Long Post) post, and was wondering something. I know most systems policy is something to the degree of as long as you arent disturbing operations you are fine. But where do i get that in writing. Does anyone know who to contact for NYCT? LIRR? Metro-North? Amtrak? NJ Transit? Septa? etc? I am going to do some picture taking over winter break, mostly on the NYC subway and Amtrak. Thanks alot.
Josh
There was a post a few months back where someone entered excerpts from NYC transit's pamphlet on their photography policy. I forget how long ago but you might want to search older posts in this forum to find it. I believe you can get one if you stop by NYC transit's public affairs office (130 Livingston St??)
--Mark
Faq! Faq! subway faq
Does anyone know if the Oyster Bay line has one of those sexy new diesl trains on it yet? If so, when does it run because I'm, heading home tuesday, and I'df likew to catch it if I can....
Does anyone know in general when they are running, or is the LIRR keeping it a big secret?
I saw one about three weeks ago at Jamaica about 4:45pm heading to oyster bay. You may want to check a timetable for actual scheduled departure time. This past saturday nite, Isaw another at Jamaica. The scheduled departure time was 11:38pm.This time is accurate because I was on the 11:12 train to Ronkonkoma
They WERE/are putting them on three lines, but some only come in as far as the end of the elect. line vs. Jamaica, at least this was my daughter's experience last week-end on the Port Jeff. line.
Sometimes a real person answers the LIRR "Travel Info" line, was the case Sunday 11/15 (718-217-LIRR or 516-822-LIRR). However it seems that only the Condutors on board know what's going on (re: others having trouble finding out in advance). With only a few trains-sets running it's hit or miss vs. a schedule.
Mr t__:^)
For the last few weeks, the bilevels have been running on the 6:54 from Patchogue to Long Island City. It arrives at Jamaica around 8:15, so anyone wanting to try out the new coaches can take a quick ride to LIC.
Any weekend sightings out there? I'll be searching Saturday afternoon...
So there you go ... Patchogue is only part of the way from the end of the elect. at Babylon to Montauk. It's not even as far as Speonk, which is a typical end point for the diesels.
As I said before, last weekend the dbl decker, on the Port Jeff line, only ran between Hicksville and Smithtown (there's only three more stations, why did they stop there & make you board a bus?).
Well Todd you will have something to crow about if you can actually catch a ride on one this weekend ! I wish you GOOD LUCK !
Mr t__:^)
This morning while I was getting off the Q at Atlantic Avenue, I heard the conductor tell a passenger on the platform that new cars will be running on this line in a year and a half. I presume he meant the R-143, but are these new cars actually slated for service on the Q?
As far as I know they're going to the "L", although I did hear somewhere that they were originally going to debut on the "Q" when the 63rd Street connector opened. Perhaps they'll pick up the option for the extra 116 cars and split them between "Q" and "L".
And I do hope they don't do anything to my beloved Slant R40s!
Wayne (Mr SlantR40)
Exactly how can anyone know when cars that havn't even been ordered yet will arrive on a line?
-Hank
I don't see new cars being assigned to a part time line. After all, that was one reason why the R68' were pulled off the Q. My understanding of the R143 is this: they will be 60 foot cars with 4 cars linked together. So they can only be used on the LMJZ. It's about time. In my lifetime, "the east" has always gotten hand me downs from the rest of the system.
The R-143s are supposed to be three linked 67 foot cars. They will be equiped to operate with the new CBTC signal system which is being installed on the L line. The cars, which will also be capable of operating with the conventional signals, will likely debut on the Queens Blvd. line, perhaps but by no means definitely, the extended Q service. They'll likely make their rounds before settling in for their stint on the L.
Will the R143 be here in time for the willy b closeing when the L lines will become insanity
Apparently, if my E-Mail is correct, a change may have been made in the R-143 configuration (and I was not notified :( ). If he is correct, there will be 100 60 foot cars in 4 car linked consists as Bill suggested. This will mean that there will be twelve 480 foot trains instead of twelve full size (600') trains on the L line.
Well I didn't design them so I don't know for sure, but if they are not 75 foot cars they must either be 60 foot cars, the old IND length or 67 foot cars the old BMT A and B car length. If they are 60 feet they probably will be in 5 car sets, 10 cars per train. If they are 67 feet they will most likely be in three car sets 9 cars per train. Both will yield a train length of about 620 feet.
Five-car sets of sixty-footers won't do much good on the Eastern division where eight-car trains are the norm.
To elaborate on the post of Timothy Speer - he is abstitively correct on that count... the stations of the Canarsie Line (at least the underground ones) measure APPROXIMATELY 520 feet in length.
They could not possibly run a ten-car set of 60-footers there.
Right now, trains on the "L" are 8 @ 60 feet for a length of 480 feet.
My friend Ward and I did some old-fashioned measuring last time we took a trip out there - he stood at one end of Wilson platform and chalk marked the train's anticlimber spot and I did the same at the other end. Then we measured off the bits with a 25-foot ruler. We came up with 520 feet for that station (this was the lower level).
Wayne
Back when the BMT standards were still around, 6-car trains were the norm on the Canarsie line. Such a train would fit very neatly in one of the stations with about 30 feet to spare on each end.
The Canarsie Line is quite crowded. Any decrease in passenger capacity is detrimental to passenger enviornment.
You think its crowded now, wait till they close the willy b!!!!!
Will the Canarsie line have the cars by then?????
If they do will they replace all the old cars
if so will they be scrapped or moved on to other lines???
The "old cars" aren't all that old - thirty years - and they will be moved onto other lines, so I hear. Prime candidates: R42s to J/M/Z; Slant R40s to the N/Q and from what I'm hearing (come this May) to the "A". That should make for some interesting railfan-window adventures.
Of course I'm just passing along what I've heard - I have no personal inside info. All this is no doubt subject to change.
Wayne /mrSlantR40/
The r40 40m and 42 arent trash. Lately theyve been showing their power in the east river tunnels on the L
Dont know how fast theyre goin but they are movin!!!
Except for the r40s which still look kinda futuristic the other car on the eastern division are just all clones! Same trains day in and day out. They have no character any more!
They use to i remember they had diffferent color interiors back before the rebuild.
I just miss the good old days when there were differnt types of cars on the lines and you didnt know what was gonna show up next.
Hopefully the R143s have some more character and color!
I think the good old days you speak of were when equipment was breaking down left and right, and different cars were sent everywhere and anywhere to keep things moving. While it did provide some colorful variety (never mind the graffiti scourge), it was still a crapshoot, since there was uncertainty if a train would be able to get going again once it stopped!
Of course, back in the other good old days, every IND train consisted of the same R-1/9 cars, while the R-10s had exclusive domain on the A line once they arrived. On the IRT, the Hi-Vs and Lo-Vs looked very similar to each other except for some slight variations. On the BMT, most lines were served exclusively by BMT standards.
IMHO, most riders don't really care what equipment their train consists of, as long as that train gets them to their destination safely and comfortably. Those of us who are transit buffs, on the other hand, take exception.
I couldn't agree with you more! As for those speed-demon Slant R40's on the "L" - I previously posted about my ride on #4399 (I call her Molly Hatchet cause she was "flirtin' with disaster") boogieing along at 50 MPH while staring down the GT's...without so much as a touch on the brake. THAT WAS SOME ROCKET RIDE!
BTW there are differences between the R40M and R42- the R42s have more silver panels inside (the R40M are flat sandy-yellow interiors - they are numbers 4450-4549) AND the R42 from 4840-and up have different grab bars above the end seats. But they're all the same color inside.
They must have gotten a deal on that color paint in bulk.
Wayne
I'll bet your slant R-40s will outrun even the R-38s if they wind up on the A. I'd love to compare them to what they were like in 1978.
BTW, have you noticed that most of today's equipment, both new and rebuilt, develops a distinctive hum at speed? It's pitched at about fourth-space E on the treble staff, or about an octave higher than the whine of the R-1/9s at speed. I haven't heard this on the R-44s or R-46s, but on the Redbirds, R-62s, R-32s, R-38s, and your slant R-40s, it's quite pronounced.
I don't know what makes you think that a Slant can outrun an R-38. There is no logical reason to assume this. In fact, an R-38 car is, on average, 800 LBS lighter than a Slant. That's 8,000 LBS per train with the same size traction motors. Seems to me that the edge would go to the 38s
Here's a thought: run a 10-car train of R-38s down 4th Ave. from Pacific St. to 36th nonstop, and time the run. Do the same with a 10-car train of slant R-40s. See what happens. Another good stretch to test this theory would be the 6th Ave. express run from W. 4th to 34th. My impression was that the slants ran faster along 4th Ave. on the B than the R-38s do on the A up CPW. Maybe it was the way the slants rumbled; noise can give the impression of going faster. When the R-10s ruled the A line, I felt that nothing could top them.
Steve... great idea, but you have one test run "backwards." The fast direction is downtown from 34th to W. 4th, as it is downhill. The uptown trip, which slopes uphill, slows substantially.
I stand corrected. I must admit it's been a while since I've ridden that stretch going southbound.
Here's another potential test segment: 59th St.-Columbus Circle to 42nd downtown on the infamous "runaway slope" approaching 42nd St. I used to love the way the R-10s would come roaring into that station.
On second thought, how about having a good old-fashioned subway drag race? "Operators, on your marks, release brakes....GO!!!" I seem to recall that two A trains got into it last spring in Manhattan. It was a tie.
[I don't see new cars being assigned to a part time line. After all, that was one reason why the R68' were pulled off the Q.]
The Q may no longer be a part-time line once the 63rd Street connector is complete.
Of course, if the Borough President of Queens has any input, the R-143s may make their debut on the E and F lines, which have had a history of receiving the newest equipment (R-38s, slant R-40s, R-46s) down through the years.
I thought the same thing BUT if they will be in consists of four 60 foot cars, they will not run on the Queens Blvd. Line. Except for the G line, the ruling train-length is 600 feet which is not possible with the aforementioned configuration. Even the G, when not six R-46s is mandated to be ten R-32s. Don't look for them on Queens Blvd.
If they go to the Eastern div like they're supposed to, they will still be in Queens, (some will run on the M, and hey, most of the Halsey St station is in Queens ;-) so the borough president better not try to mess this up for the forgotten Eastern div.
The R-143, all 108 of them, will run on the L Line
Hey guys when the R143 cars get here will they be retire some of the older class cars or is this just additional cars that will be needed?
It was originally planned that the R-40 Slants would be retired. However, with the opening of the 63rd St. Connection, the Q line (under the current plan) would need an additional 14 trains. Hence, a study is underway to determine what repairs MUST be made tot he R-32s and R-40s to extend their life by at least 5 years...
"It was originally planned that the R-40 slants would be retired". Wayne must need anti-depressants after reading that! I do know the bodies are in bad shape so that must be the reasoning. I do know with the opening of 63rd St., new cars are needed before anything can be retired. I wish the R44's would be the first to go tho. Eventhough they are newer than many other cars, before you know it they will be 30 yrs. old, and OH, how I hate those cramped cabs and their sensitive controllers!
I agree completely about the 44s. As for the 40s, Todd also has a soft spot for them. I'm just glad that the R-32s will be getting new floors and will stick around at least 8 more years.
Antidepressants? Heavens, no! No beer either.
I'm not too concerned at THIS moment, since I have also heard that the R143's will be an addition to the fleet, not a replacement for...
As for those wonderful Slant R40s, not ALL the bodies are in bad shape, but it seems that some of the roofs need work, since they are not stainless steel. #4408-9, #4412-13, #4418-9, #4406-7 all have their "bondo lines" showing. But all kidding aside, these trains are in very good shape and ride very well, so scrapping them at the tender age of thirty-two would be a serious mistake. It would behoove the folks at Coney Island to inspect and repair ALL slant R40s, so that they can at least last until 2008, their fortieth birthdays.
I would guess that when the "L" gets the new cars, the slants will go over to the "Q" and "N" lines and the R40Ms and R42s would go back to the "J" "M" and "Z".
LEAVE MY SLANT R40s ALONE! Just fix them! They are not ready for the scrap heap yet. If they have to scrap something, scrap the R44s. They are tin cans. Then put the 48 slants from the "L" on the "A", as some of the other posters had suggested.
Wayne [/mrSlantR40/]
The R-44's, in my opinion, are worthy of the title 'Sub-Yugo', or 'Sub-Pinta'.
They are no good! It's pretty interesting that two car classes (R-44 and R-46) can be so similar, and yet so different. The R-46s are okay, they should stay, but the -44's don't belong there.
I could ALWAYS feel the difference between the R44 and R46, even when they were relatively new. The R46 has a heavier feel, whereas with the R44s, you can hear every loose nut and bolt - they rattle and clatter. I also suspect that they are a little lighter.
Here's one for you - why did they take out the glass panels by the doors only on the R46s, not on the R44s? I kind of like leaning on them when I ride. One time I got on an "F" and forgot that the panel wasn't there and I almost put my elbow throught the space - good thing there was nobody sitting there! Wayne
One of the reasons was the suspension of the two cars. The R-46 had air-bag suspension while the R-44 had standard suspension (except for the last 12 R-44s) The R-46s also had GE propulsion while the 44s had westinghouse.
A lot of mistakes made on the R44's were corrected on the R46. And the lifetime performance of the cars have proved it (cracking trucks not being mechanical). I wonder if back in 1973 when the R44's came out, some at the TA felt that the 75 foot car concept was a mistake, but had no choice but to stick with it, because the "political" consequences of going back to 60' cars would be enormous with all the money spent moving switches & chopping up benchwalls to fit these 75' monsters. I know its cheaper in the long run to maintain 8 cars instead of 10, but it was done at a tremendous cost. On a selfish note, changing ends on a 75' car is a tremendous hassle: The storm doors weigh a ton, sometimes you have a bulkhead door too, and you have to make sure they are locked again. Much more time consuming than changing ends with a 10 car train of 60' cars.
> I wonder if back in 1973 when the R44's came out, some at the TA
> felt that the 75 foot car concept was a mistake, but had no choice
> but to stick with it, because the "political" consequences of going
> back to 60' cars would be enormous with all the money spent moving
> switches & chopping up benchwalls to fit these 75' monsters.
Remember that the R44s were built based on the SOAC car in the early 70s and in order to get UMTA money for the car order, you "had" to purchase cars that fit the mold. The SOAC cars probably weren't debugged enough before NY placed the order for the R44s, even though they toured 4 cities in the US.
I had the opportunity to be in the hull of a completely stripped R44 at 207th St shop back in the mid-80s when the decision on whether to rebuild them was being made. At the time, NYC transit wasn't sure if they could be rebuilt (something about body strength, I think). I was really hoping they wouldn't get rebuilt.
Are the R44s on SIRT faring better than those on the subway?
--Mark
I do agree with Mark on the fact that the R-44's had been influenced by the SOAC concept. Of course, the R-46's were built based on lessons learned from the R-46 contract. I was wondering why weren't the cars rebuilt to interface with each other?
The SIRT R44's do fare much better than the NYCT R44's. This is because the SIRT cars don't put on one iota of the high mileage the NYCT 44's put on. I would dare say the average SIRT R-44 car will put on the same mileage in a whole month as a NYCT R-44 will put on in one 24 hour period!
Not only is there less milage accumulated by the SIRT R-44s but because of the roadbed, the miles they do accumulate are 'soft' miles.
Sorry, Mark, but the SOAC was based on the R-44, not the other way around. The R-44 contract was signed in 1969, way before SOAC. The R-46 contract was signed in 1972, right around the time SOAC was ordered by the government. SOAC was delivered in 1974.
David
How about "Sub-Edsel?" The R-16s could also be included somewhere in that category, too. They could at least pull the R-44s off the A.
Say, Wayne, as for putting some slant R-40s on the A, you've got my vote! Put 'em there and turn 'em loose up CPW!!
Yep, when the R143's arrive on the "L", #4398 thru #4449 will be free to roam...the "A" would be a good place for them. Put the R44s on the "R" or somewhere else they can wear themselves out stopping and starting.
Wayne
#4398-4449 are rumored to be heading to the "A" line when the Willy B closes in May in order to help provide more service.
Man oh man, I can hardly wait! If those cars do go to the A, and are still there by next fall, I will wait for one of those trains even if it takes an hour. I'll bet anything they'll rumble and fly up CPW!
As for the R-44s, I liked that post about putting them on the Eastern Division and having them sideswipe each other to death. A good old demolition derby...
Your wish may be granted - mike, our reliable source, has these cars joining the "A" fleet in May when the Williamsburg Bridge closes.
His post is 11/23/98 23:34 (11:34pm)
They're scheduled to institute 24/7 (or almost 24/7) express service
then as well, with the "C" journeying to Euclid, one of my own wishes.
Wayne
Yes! A victory for the A, the best line in the system!
This is too good to be true. Somebody - pinch me quick! Call it the second coming of the R-10s. Do we need to make reservations?
While they're at it, why don't they run the C all the way out to Lefferts Blvd. and send all A trains to the Rockaways? I will say this much: ridership along Fulton St. seems to be picking up. Whenever I've ridden the A on that line, the trains are full.
You should have been there dept: April 28, 1998 (Tues.) found me on one of my photo trips, to Utica Avenue station on the "A" - after arriving at 8:13am aboard #5391 (a rattletrap R44) and shooting pictures of the Children's Cathedral & other goodies I got aboard #4031 - an R38 - at 8:44am. This unit was EXTREMELY crowded, almost to the point of pain. I tried to gently make my way across the car, but I only got halfway there. THEN came Nostrand Avenue. A MOB of people boarded very forcefully, I did not see them as I could barely move and had my back towards them. There was arguing and shoving, especially from a few women who were jostled. I wound up near the port side door, which was just what I needed. When we got to Hoyt-Schermerhorn, the doors opened and people spilled out like in the Marx Bros' "A Night At The Opera" stateroom scene.
It was a sardine can, for sure! Needless to say, I bailed out.
Wayne
Did the conductor on that A train say "There is another train directly behind us"? I've been on a few crowded trains myself during rush hours. I rode a D of R-42s once in 1978 up CPW to the Bronx while carrying a bulkhead desination roller curtain mechanism which I had just picked up at Cityana Gallery (I still have it, and recently installed an IND curtain with "Coney Island" intact and not painted over courtesy of Charles Fiori). It was heavily wrapped, so no one knew what it was, but I still got a lot of dirty looks. On top of that, when I got off at Fordham Rd., there was this blind guy who was asking for orientation to an exit. I thought I'd do my good deed for the day and directed him to the stairs. When he stated he needed help getting to the street, I replied I wasn't exiting the subway, whereupon he yelled, "Well then, &$#@ you!!!" Same to you, too, buddy.
But that's not all. Get this: two and a half months later, I'm on another uptown D (of R-10s!!) during rush hour, and guess who was getting off at Fordam Rd? You got it: Mr. Guttermouth. Talk about deja vu. I stayed on that train all the way to 205th St. Of course, the R-10s didn't have Brighton Beach signs, so the southbound destination curtain was blank.
P. S. I don't remember exactly, but chances are I wound up on an A of slant R-40s heading downtown at 145th or 125th.
The R44S are the best cars I have ever operated.I'll pick to work the A line on New Years day and Presidents day.Never had a problem with them.
Well I guess that's why they sell Pepsi & 7UP. I personally find the cabs on the R-44s claustrophobic. The difference between the 44 cab and 46 cab is like comparing a Gremlin to a Lincoln. I can't see how some operators can get behind the R-44 console. In addition, I find the braking inprecise and harsh compared with any of the other 75' cars. The only good part is the Cab AC & heat is good. (BTW _ I am not a train operator so my experience is quite limited)
It is a little tight I know. I haven't operated them in about three years. Is it true that thers is less dynamic brake than previously? I heard a modification was done on them. Also, is it true that they are modifying the seat on the R46?(cab seat).Iheard that it's going to be welded into one spot inside the cab.
I have found the cab heat quite good in the R46 as there is a heater on each side of the cab. My two problems are (1) air conditioning: eventhough there are 2 vents, it doesn't seem to cool the cab to my taste and I must shoe-slipper the cab door open a crack; and (2) the cab windows: I have yet to have one that is not free-wheeling, I have yet to get a window that will stay open! But mechanically and comfort & ease of operation, they are quite good.
The Cab AC is the way it is because there is no vent to provide circulation of air, such as the grill in the crew door of the R-68 or R-68A. As for the cab windows, they were rebuilt per specifications. Felt is being added to the track to dampen the free movement.
Did something happen to the doors on the R-44s? They seemed to open and close much more slowly than I've ever remembered when I rode them last month. Put it this way: they were opening and closing at the same rate as the doors on the BMT standards used to.
May you get an R38 every trip!!!!!!!!!
I like them also.Better yet I WANT A MIXED CONSIST. 6 R38 4 R32s. HA HA HA HA.
A wierd thing happened this eveniing on the El. I got out of work and went to catch the El at 8th Street. The platform was crowded so I knew that a train had not come yet. When I got on the platform the last train that pulled away was at approx at 13th street. I looked to see if another train was coming but no lights were seen. Going eastbound about 5-10 minutes later an M-4 train came into 8th street and then left for 5th street. Once it got to 5th Street it satyed there and then when looking at the station, the M-4 was truning around and was being switched on the westbound tracks and when it got to 8th street it was empty, evidently all those on the train got off. Does anyone know why they did that?
I was ridingthe el last night at around 5:15. I was at 30th St. waiting for a train. When I got on the platform an M-4 was just pulling out. About two minutes later another train of M-3's came in and left. Then 30 seconds later another train, and another one 30 seconds later and still another. About 6 trains went through 30th Street in about 3 minutes. VERY DANGEROUS!!!!!!
When I finally got on the train we were held up at 40th Street for about 10 minutes. There are two signals visible form the westbound platform, one right out of the station and another just before the final turn to exit the subway. The close one was green and tripper arm down and the far signal was yellow. I've seen many an train speed thorugh a yellow signal as if it was green. And behind us, the trains still came!
So to answer your question, they probably had a back-up on the Frankford-bound track so switched some trains to 69th St.(which still delayed traffic going that way already-and when I was on the el I only saw two eastbound trains between 30th St. and 69th).
[When I got on the platform an M-4 was just pulling out. About two minutes later another train of M-3's came in and left. Then 30 seconds later another train, and another one 30 seconds later and still another. About 6 trains went through 30th Street in about 3 minutes. VERY DANGEROUS!!!!!! ]
May I ask what is DANGEROUS about this? The signal system on the MKT-FKD line is designed to accommodate the tight spacing of trains. This fact is illustrated by your story. Back in the 1960's and 1970', when I rode the EL on a daily basis, it was not uncommon for a train to follow its leader into a station east of City Hall on the leaders "approach" (Yellow) signal. That is why the system is equipped with the side trip arm mechanism. In fact, rush hour headway's in that period were 1 and 3 / 4 minutes.
While there have been derailments on the EL in years past, I don't recall there has ever been a "rear end" collision. Closely spaced trains may make you nervous, however, I find it exciting to experience the signal design and system work in conjunction with the motorman's judgment and handling. Stand at the front window and enjoy the ride, that is if you’re on a train of Budd cars (M-3).
On my sporadic rides on the El these days, I've noticed, especially with mixed M-4's and Budds, that the M-4's tend to run slow and the Budds tend to follow close behind. I've been told that, in rush hours, occasionally the trains are literally back to front. Don't sweat it!
Oh, you know me. I'm just a nervous Nellie. Close spacing is good for time, but bad for my nerves.
At 69th st., I heard an operator say that when he got to 5th street,
the automatic announcement system said "last stop -5th st." This was an error at that time because he was a local Saturday train. In your case it was a real turnaround and the "voice" told everyone to get off.They must have all the switchback points programmed in as possible turnback points so they announce"last stop".
Okay this is all second hand from my wife and wanted to know if anyone has run into it. She says that Thursday taking the D home to Brooklyn around 4:20pm that there was an automated train annoucment. She noticed since it was a womans voice (conductor male) and she said it sounded like the phone recorded messages where the changable nouns are inserted.
She said the annoucement said something like "Welcome aboard MTA NYC Subway Coney Island bound D train." something to the effect that it was rebuild with new A/C for customer comfort. And that it auto annouced train stations but only did it at West 4th and Dekalb.
Could this be true or is the conductor (or my wife) be playing?
Lou, there were some R-68s that were equiped with an automated announcement system. The system was installed many years ago but was not practical for the desired application. Those cars were never normalized. Some of those cars were recently moved back to the D line and one of the cars obviously ended up in the conductor's position. The conductor was really not authorized to use it but then again, it was never disconnected. By the way, announcements were available in either male or female voice depending on the conductor's preference.
Dear Sir/Madam:
Recently I saw some roll sign markers on the IND-BMT lines and
found that other letters exist. Are these for the future 2nd Avenue
subway, if it gets built? There is a V and W. Someone also told me
there is also a Y. What color is the Y marker? Are there any other
letters besides these letters?
James Li
I rember reading somewhere that the unused letters (i.e. V, W, etc) were to be used upon the opening of the connection between the BMT 63rd Street Tunnel and the IND Queens Line near Queens Plaza. Keep an eye out when they open this section
The V is for the superexpress in Queens connecting Queens Blvd. line with Roosevelt Island. It has been on the rols since 1987 or so. As for Y, I have never seen nor heard of such a possible designation.
"Y" only exists on the R32 and R38 signs; it's a white circle with a black "Y". Same for "P", "T", "U", and "X".
"V" is Orange. "W" is Broadway Gold and is a diamond shaped sign
I've seen "V" on various cars: R40, R32, R27/30 etc. I saw "W" on just the Slant R40 so far, albeit upside down.
Wayne
I think that the W was a new train route that was going to go from Jamaica to Penn Station without any stops if the LIRR went on strike. (See earlier posts.) But there was never any strike, so it never happened.
That was the P (R-32's would have been sent to Parsons for this). The W was originally conceived for when the Manhattan Bridge is fully open and the N is express. The W would replace the diamond N that went local to Whitehall.
Y was also considered for use as a Canarsie skip-stop, but then K was selected, I guess because it is on the R-42 signs, albeit in the wrong color (blue). The R-110B has a gray K on the sign, but it seems the whole idea has been scrapped, even with the upcoming Williamsburg Bridge closing.
Eric,
Thanks for the correction.
Now I've got another question:
When will those new numbers like the #11 (#7 express) and the others like the #12, #13, and #14 go into effect???
Also,how high will the numbers go?
Good question - there was talk of using "8" for the Pelham express and #10 for the #5 thru express, but it hasn't gone anywhere yet. As far as I know the R62 signs only go up to #13.
#8 and #10 are green;
#11 is purple;
#12 and #13 are red.
I am not sure about numbers beyond that.
I saw a #10 sign in car #1680's window on 11/07/98, it was green.
Wayne
>Good question - there was talk of using "8" for the Pelham express >and #10 for the #5 thru express, but it hasn't gone
>anywhere yet. As far as I know the R62 signs only go up to #13.
>
>#8 and #10 are green;
>#11 is purple;
>#12 and #13 are red.
>I am not sure about numbers beyond that.
Why bother at all? Would giving rush hour services (that don't affect Manhattan service patterns) their own identity abate confusion or create it?
-Dan Casey
>Good question - there was talk of using "8" for the Pelham express >and #10 for the #5 thru express, but it hasn't gone
>anywhere yet. As far as I know the R62 signs only go up to #13.
>
>#8 and #10 are green;
>#11 is purple;
>#12 and #13 are red.
>I am not sure about numbers beyond that.
Why bother at all? Would giving rush hour services (that don't affect Manhattan service patterns) their own identity abate confusion or create it?
-Dan Casey
The R68/68A cars have a Southern Terminal sign for Bay Parkway.
I saw this sign last week when all N trains were stopping there.
I'd like to know if anyone can tell me if any routes, other than the F, have ever gone to 179th St.-Jamaica, and if so what route it was and why the service was discontinued. The track layout of some of the stations past 179th. seems to indicate there was another line to 179th at one time...(i.e., express tracks going through stations like 169th St. that all trains stop at.)
Thanks for anyone's time who can explain this matter.
The "E" and "F" trains served 179th St. on a full-time basis until the Archer Avenue subway opened in 1988.
Ok...did the E make all stops after 179th St., and was the F train's route any different?
I presume that by "after 179th", you mean between 179th and 71st-Continental Ave. Before the Archer Ave. line opened, E trains made all stops beyond Continental Ave. at all times. F trains ran express along that same stretch either during daytime hours on weekdays, stopping at 169th St. during middays, or rush hours only. Early IND maps had a footnote concerning the F: "F trains do not stop at Sutphin Blvd., Van Wyck Blvd., and 75th-Puritan Ave."
Since the Archer Ave. line opened, E trains run express past Continental Ave. during daytime hours on weekdays. For a long time, maps and station signs indicated the E ran express along that stretch at all times, but this was not so. R trains ran all the way to 179th St. at all times for a time in the late 80s after switching terminals with the N; later they ran out to 179th only during rush hours. The F ran express when the R ran out to 179th, but nowadays, the F runs local past Continental Ave. at all times. The G replaced the F along the Queens line during nights while the F ran to 21st-Queensbridge, running all the way out to 179th but not anymore.
With the 63rd St. connector under construction, E and F trains are now running local along the entire Queens line more often than not.
Thanks for the explanation...it seems though, that especially after Archer Ave. opened, F service got cut way back.
As someone who takes the F from 179th fairly often, i'd love a train that ran express right from the getgo...i guess i should have been around during the good old days, eh? :--)
There might be an express service all the way out to 179th St. once the 63rd St. connector opens, perhaps the Q or the new V.
I was not surprised when they discontinued the (R) service to 179th St. After all, people enter that station by the busload from Long Island, and I can't imagine ANYONE headed for Manhattan actually boarding the (R)!
Bob Sklar
Not too long ago, when the F would terminate at 21st St., the G was the local service between Queens Plaza and 179th St during the midnight hours. However, the primary service arrangement for decades was as Dave suggested, E on the outside (local) and F in the middle (express).
the F used to end at 21st st. all the time, or just late at night? and how long ago was this?
The F went to 21 St just at night, after 11 PM I think. It was back around 1994-95 if my memory serves me correctly...
Beginning in 1950, when 179th Street opened, until 1988, when the Archer Avenue line became the E train route, the service pattern along the Queens Blvd. IND was pretty consistent:
E and F at all times 24/7 to 179th Street.
F ran express between 71st/Continental and 179th, stopping only at Union Tpke and Parsons Blvd, on weekdays approx 6 AM - 8 PM. Other times, all stops after 71st/Continental.
E made all stops after 71st/Continental to 179th, at all times.
GG local north terminal was 71st/Continental at all times 24/7.
When BMT 60th Street Tunnel Connection opened in 1955, the following BMT services operated along Queens Blvd, terminating with the G at 71st/Continental, but only Mon thru Fri, 6 AM - 7:30 PM:
Brighton Local (QT), until 1961.
4th Ave Local (RR), 1961-1967
Broadway Local (EE), 1967-1976
Sea Beach (N), 1976 - 1987.
Since 1987, R (old RR) returned, but on a 24/7 basis.
For a short period after Archer Ave. line opened, the R ran all the way to 179th Street but was returned to 71st/Continental.
One corrrection: since 1987, the R does not run during the midnite hours.
Does anyone out there know if there was ever a crossunder at the 168th St. station on the #1 line, and if so, when it was closed and why? There is a metal entrance cover in the floor on the northern end of the southbound platform that looks like the sort of thing that would cover a closed crossunder.
Barry,
I've never heard of a cross-under. I've always assumed that the currently existing cross-over was always there. It undoubtedly cost far less money to build than a cross-under, and there was already room for it under the high ceiling.
Bob Sklar
For those of you who aren't avid viewers of Philly's 10 o'Clock News, on Sunday there will be a special report about SEPTA workers who aren't doing their jobs. Big surprise. for those of you who wish to, you may want to give it a watch. This Sunday on the 10 o'Clock News "right after an all new X-Files!"
Riding the El to town this morning(now from 69th St) I always look out the front window, as that is something soon no one in Philadelphia will be able to do.
As we entered the portal I noticed something unusual.
There is a section of tunnel that is partitioned from the tunnel by a wall. Barrels and all manner of SEPTA trash are kept back there.
As you turn in the tunnel and you can see 40th St. straight ahead you will notice what look like trackways coming from the partition and the ties on this section of track are longer than others, almost long enough to accomodate a merging track.
On the westbound track in this same area, the same thing(minus the partitioned section) can be seen.
Does anyone know what that's all about?
There is a small stub of the subway which continues on straight from the point at which the connection to the el diverges to the north. I believe this is only 100' or less in length. It is used for various purposes, from what I've seen.
In Chicago, we have the same thing in the Dearborn Subway. Where the outbound tunnel makes the turn from Lake Street (straight east-west) to Milwaukee Avenue (a diagonal street), there is a short stub tunnel continuing stright ahead. There is a matching stub on the inbound tunnel.
The purpose for these stubs is obvious when you realize they both run due east-west and are both west of the turn in the Dearborn twin tunnels. The stubs are located to bring eastbound Lake L trains down into the subway, and westbound trains from the subway up to the Lake Street L. They are in the wrong direction to send trains running in the subway under Milwaukee up onto the Loop L.
In other words, when the tunnels were built, the City of Chicago/CRT or CTA (construction began in 1940 but the Dearborn Subway wasn't opened 'til '52) intended for the Lake Street L to be able to feed into the tunnels, in anticipation of the foreseen elimination of the Loop structure. Which has never been done for reasons of finance and historic preservation.
Jack you mentioned something about not being able to look out the front in the near future. Are you talking about the new M-4s? The last time I rode an M-4 I had a front window seat. Or do you mean standing in the aisle and looking out that way?
Hey guys! The M-4's have the "railfan seat" I rode from 69th st. to Bridge-Pratt and had a ball! It's better than standing in an M-3 and looking out the small window of it's front door>
Chuck Greene
It is good to hear that the M-4 cars have a "railfan" seat. I've not had the opportunity to ride on the M-4 cars yet, however, plan to do so during my visit back East during the Christmas Holidays.
I was one of those who was forever stationed at the front door window while riding the El. Back in the 60's and 70's, I think I knew the "physical characteristics" of the road as well as any qualified Motorman.
We here in Chicago still morn the loss of our "railfan" seats. George Krambles, railfan and in management at the CTA, made sure all the equipment received a railfan seat. This single sideways facing seat opposite the motor cab looking out the front window was a favorite of many a fan, this one included. The seating pattern, adopted with the delivery of the 6000's in the early fifties (770 cars), carried through four different car order(1,130 cars), was not altered until the delivery of the 3200's in 1992. This was the beginning of "one person" operation that eventually spread to the entire system.
The 3200s still have see-through windows in the cabs, so you can get a decent view through the front. My aunt says the other cars have had the front portion roped off or similarly blocked off sine the implementation of OPTO. If the 3200s can m. u. with other equipment, why not put them on the ends of trains on at least the Red and Blue lines if full-time conductors are indeed a thing of the past?
I am also very curious about this. The M-4s have great front views! They have a railfan seat AND one-person operation. They do this using a clever, albiet costly, 3-camera video system at each platform which transmits images, via under-train antennas, to the driver's console, so they know when the doors are clear without sticking their heads out the window.
I know that there is a backup capability that would require the use of the railfan seat - the window opposite the driver's cabin opens, and there is a locked hatch above it that I assume hides a door-closing switch - but I have seen the video system operate and it seems to work fine... Why would they close off the railfan seat during normal operations?
I think operators may close off the railfan seat just so they are not so cramped in the cab. Not that I like it when they do this, but that may be why. (CTA trains always seemed to operate this way even when there was a conductor on the train).
When the M-4's were literally new, there used to be two SEPTA employees, one in the cab and one taking up the whole railfan seat to sit and yabber with the operator. Though not common now, it sure was irrittating.
I am also very curious about this. The M-4s have great front views! They have a railfan seat AND one-person operation. They do this using a clever, albiet costly, 3-camera video system at each platform which transmits images, via under-train antennas, to the driver's console, so they know when the doors are clear without sticking their heads out the window.
I know that there is a backup capability that would require the use of the railfan seat - the window opposite the driver's cabin opens, and there is a locked hatch above it that I assume hides a door-closing switch - but I have seen the video system operate and it seems to work fine... Why would they close off the railfan seat during normal operations?
I think operators may close off the railfan seat just so they are not so cramped in the cab. Not that I like it when they do this, but that may be why. (CTA trains always seemed to operate this way even when there was a conductor on the train).
When the M-4's were literally new, there used to be two SEPTA employees, one in the cab and one taking up the whole railfan seat to sit and yabber with the operator. Though not common now, it sure was irrittating.
The trackways in question were built along with the extension of the subway from 23rd street to 40th in 1955. The subway was built with the provision for a further extension west, possibly to the PR/W at 63rd Street.
The 40th Street portal is a "temporary" ramp which would have been removed had the tunnel been extended.
This seems to have just died out from lack of interest and discussion. Is there any relaible news/updates?
There is enormous opposition to the trolley, because the construction will rip up the street, deliveries would not be possible on one side, the 104 bus which goes down Broadway and then down 42nd would be terminated, etc. On the other hand, there is an active group of supporters pushing it. Doing it and not doing are vote losers. Doing nothing makes people frustrated, but the elected officials don't get blamed. The result -- MORE STUDY!
42nd Street is a great street and has a great feel to it and it is wide enough to share light rail with traffic.
The light rail should be in dedicated lanes though. If it does not work at the sides it may work better with a center running system.
Two tracks at the centerline with stations at the major corners.
I like to ride trolleys. But trolleys that have to share their tracks with cars and trucks tend to get stuck in traffic, bunch up and are very slow. This is aggravated by the 70 to 90 foot behemoths that are being manufactured these days. Loading is slow if they must use pay as you enter fare collection rather than proof of payment . I don't think 42 nd street is wide enough to give the trolleys their own segregated median. If a street of the same width in the outlying boroughs were to get a streetcar it might work, but 42 nd street is one of the few major crosstown streets in midtown Manhattan. It has too much traffic and is too narrow to accommodate streetcars IMHO.
Ahem. AAAAhem!
When I was a kid I remember riding in a car behind the Third Avenue System trolleys on Third Avenue, and behind their trolleys in Yonkers, N. Y.
I knew there was a Third Avenue System crosstown line on 42nd St., even though I never had a chance to ride it or even ride in a car behind it...
I understand that the Third Avenue System lost its franchise, thanks to a certain mayor....
Would someone be good enough to post a list of the arguments *for* the proposed 42nd Street Trolley, and a list of the arguments *against* the proposed 42nd Street Trolley?
Other transit memories I have of New York include riding the Third Avenue El with my late grandmother .... I did not have a chance to ride the el from Chatham Square to South Ferry.... Unfortunately the powers that be tore that section down before my grandmother moved to New York City... But I did have a chance to view the Third Ave El in action not far from South Ferry one day as my mother, one of her college friends and I were on our way out of Manhattan to points south...
I always thought that in the summers that the EL was, shall we say, atmospherically more pleasing to ride on than the subways....
It is a shame that the Third Ave El local tracks were not reconstructed to support the heavier el/transit cars... On the other hand, why didn't anyone come up with the idea of making cars for the Third Ave. EL which were not as heavy?
Memories....
Will look forward to reading a list of the pros and cons of the 42nd St. Trolley....
Best wishes to all... I really enjoy the postings of the participants of this list.
Morton Belcher
42nd ST Trolley Arguments
FOR:
Attractive to the middle class, and tourists, unlike the bus. Would bring tourists to the convention center, and allow suburbanites to get to the U.N.
Larger vehicles, more capacity.
Separate ROW provides route identity. The trolley would not get stuck behind other vehicles.
The private sector could operate with a higher fare an no subsidy: the TA would save by discontinuing bus service (no one really believes this).
Would make it more difficult to drive by increasing traffic congestion, and thereby discourage autos. First step to driving cars out of the city, and perhaps out of America entirely, with trolleys on other streets.
AGAINST:
No better than a bus -- still has to sit at the light, cannot steer around gridlock or breakdowns, proposed run times no better than the bus.
Current bus routes allow people to come down from the Upper East Side and Upper West Side and then across (ie. 104); as proposed, they would have to transfer to a trolley.
Makes 42nd Street a one-way: 40th Street expected to handle the traffic the other way, but cannot.
Congestion hurts trucks making deliveries, taxis, buses and emergency vehicles as well as cars. Trucks making deliveries to the N side of 42nd Stree would have to park on the side street, carry things around.
Construction would turn 42nd into a war zone, stopping the comeback of Times Square and hurting the affluent residents of Tudor City.
Little bang for big bucks.
Did anyone ever consider having one way trolleys on 41st and 43rd Sts?
--Mark
That would sent the westbound line through the Grand Central Station main room and the eastbound line through the N.Y. Public Library main reading room. Since they've both just been renovated, I'd imagine the city will want to wait a few years before they tear both of them up again.
Well that wouldn't be so bad ... talk about door to door service :)
--Mark
The best thing to do would be to turn 42nd Street into a pedestrian-only street.
Pro
It's cheap
It improves quality of life for everyone except motorists
Con
People from New Jersey and Long Island get mad because they can't drive down 42nd Street
Delivery problems - although deliveries could be allowed between the hours of 3AM and 6AM weekdays only
Upcoming car movements planned for this week or next on the B division include:
1) Pitkin Shop sends back eight R-32 Phase I cars to Jamaica Shop.
2) Jamaica Shop transfers twenty R-32 Phase II cars to Coney Island Shop in addition to the ten already sent (a total of 30 R-32 Phase II)
3) Coney Island transfers 20 R-68 to Concourse shop in addition to the 3 R-68 all ready sent (a total of 24 R-68 cars).
More to come, I'm afraid...
So I guess that means our stray R32 "A" train is going back to the "E". Here's a question, Steve: is there a way to tell at a glance what is a Phase I R32 and what is a Phase II - i.e. is there some sort of distinctive characteristic of one or the other? I noticed that SOME of the R32s have fatter numerals on their plaques (i.e.3810-11 is an example of this) - could this be one way to tell them apart?
Thanx
Steve
I can't tell the Phase I and Phase II apart from the outside or by car number. I have a reference list on my desk for that purpose. Here are the major diferences:
1) Phase I have Wabco Air Brakes - Phase II have NY Air Brake.
2) Phase I have Thermoking HVAC - Phase II have Stone Safety HVAC
3) All of the mixed marriages are Phase II
4) All R-32s on the A or C line are Phase I
5) All R-32s on the N (or B, Q) are Phase II
6) All R-32s on the E,G, or R can be either Phase I or Phase II
Does that help at all?
Also, Phase I cars have a G.E. Controller (black); Phase II cars have the Westinghouse (silver) Controller.
Some have the inner doorpost painted, and others have the bare stainless steel. I know that originally, the painted ones were all pitkin, but now thay've been mixed up. Could this be one of the distinctions between these 2 phases?
I think that was more a distinction between the R-32 and the R-32A. The same can be said for the main light lenses. On the R-32s they just cover the fluorescent tubes but on the R-32As, they also held the advertising signs. There were also different fan grills between the two but since the HVAC was installed, it's a moot point.
No, that's the original construction you're talking about. When rebuilt, the lights were all changed to the plastic direct lighting, separate from the ads, except for 8 of them and 1 3500 pair which were rebuilt like R-38's with the illuminated ads. The doorposts I was talking about were apart of the rebuilding, and have nothing to do with the old distinctions between 32 and 32a.
Also with the phase 1 cars you could hear the door panels lock when the doors closed. Ican't describe it. It was a loud noise .Now with the doors modified you don't hear it anymore.
It helps in that I can zero in on a particular line ("C" or "N") to see if there are any subtle differences in their interiors, which I suspect that there may be (the placement of a vent, handhold or a number sticker; perhaps a difference in interior paint etc.). To do this right, I would have to avoid the "E". So far I haven't noticed any outstanding differences between the two types of car yet.
Next time I'm out there I'll search the "C" and "N" or "Q" lines for them and take notes (and photos if I can).
Wayne
You mean there are R-32s still on the Q? I thought your slant R-40s had exclusive domain on that line now. Not that that's a problem, of course..
One question: can Phase I and Phase II R-32s run together in the same consist? It seems that some of the other rebuilt cars (and, for that matter, R-62s and R-62As, as well as R-68s and R-68As) cannot run in mixed consists depending on who rebuilt them.
BTW, I also remember seeing a handwritten message on the inside of an R-44 cab before it was rebuilt: "Do not couple electrically to R-46 car." Weren't they capable of running together originally?
I remember well that the R-32 (3350-3799) did not have the illuminated ad racks while nos. 3800-3949 did have these. I always liked the illuminated ad rack and wish the all of the R-32's had them. I was also disappionted to see the R-40, R-40M and R-42's lose the illuminated advertising racks.
But the R38's kept them! (as did the R32-GE's).
I think they did an outstanding job on rebuilding the R38s. These car interiors photograph beautifully and they are also quite attractive
with the subdued lighting and sculptured handholds. You're right - too bad more cars don't have these features. Speaking of which - the handholds/grab bars at the car ends are all different on R32, R38, Slant R40, R40M and two different styles for R42. (those above #4840-NYCT rebuilds are similar to Slant R40). The R32 grab bars are particularly tough to reach if you're shorter than 5'3". I like the R38 "curly bars" best.
Someone mentioned that the NYCT rebuilt R44 can't mate with the Morrison-Knudsen rebuilt R44, that's why there are some odd cars languishing around (5284 and 5285, for example).
I stand corrected re. 3750-3799 having (NOT having) illuminated advertising signs and have amended my records.
Wayne /MrSlantR40/
I also like those fans on 3800-3949.
Were they not the same fans that were found on the original R40s (current no.4150-4349, original no.4150-4249; 4350-4449)?
I also remember that the VERY FIRST R40 (4150-4151) had yet a different type fan cover - something like the R33WF. Correct me if I'm wrong...
Wayne
You're correct on the first one. I'm not sure about the second.
The Jamaica (E line) fleet consists of both Phase I & Phase II cars. They do run together in the same consist.
R-32 Phase Is have Wabco Brake systems while the R-32 Phase IIs have New York Air Brake equipment. The general rule on the NYCT system is not to mix the two systems in a train consist IN REVENUE SERVICE. This is why R-68 (NYAB) and R-68As (WABCO) never run mixed. This too is the rule for the R-32s where Pitkin Shop (A & C Lines) has only Phase Is and Coney Island (B & N Lines) has only Phase IIs. The only place in the NYCT system where running R-32 Phase I and Phase II cars together is permitted is on the E, G and R lines as Jamaica Shop has both types.
As for your R-44 questions, back before overhaul, it was never permitted to couple R-44s to R-46s (except iron to iron). This was because the intercar electrical connections (the electric portions) were not wired consistantly. Following overhaul, the electric connections were standardized between R-44 and R-46s. However, the R-44 fleet has Westcode Brakes which does not use a feed valve to regulate Prake Pipe pressure. Brake Pipe Pressure on R-44s runs around 135 PSI. R-46s by contrast use NYAB brake equipment with a feed valve and have a brake pipe pressure of 110 PSI nominal. Therefore, you still can not couple R-44s and R-46s normally. Finally, Morrison Knudsen R-44s and NYCT overhauled R-44s will run perfectly fine together. Their performance is tracked seperately but so is the performance of the MK R-42s and the CI R-42s. Other contracts that are tracked seperately are the R-29 GE & the R-29 West. and the R-32 Phase I, Phase II and GE fleets.
So I take it the ones with the painted inner doorpost (on the C) are phase 1, and the one with the satinless steel doorpost is phase II (on the N) I now see both types mixed on the E, which would agree with what you said.
I have never noticed painted or non-painted door posts but yes, the phase Is are on the C and Phase IIs are on the N. The E has both.....
I'll be checking out the doorposts Monday.
Steve: What is the MDBF of a M/K R42, vs. a CI R42? Thanks.
I have only the October figures handy but the Coney Island R-42 MDBF was 33,833 and the MK R-42 MDBF was 61,267. The data was somewhat skewed because the MK 42s had double the milage last month.
A few R32 notes--
Phase 1 & Phase 2 GOH has no correlation with R32 vs R32A.
The [pre-GOH] cars with the backlit carcards were, I'm pretty
sure, 3800-3949. Those are R32, not 32A, because for some reason
the 32As were numbered lower than the 32s.
You can tell the two cars apart easily as follows:
Look at the controller inside the cab.
Look for the HVAC contactor box under the car. As you {Steve}
mentioned: phase1 == ThermoKing phase2==Stone Safety
Wait for a side door to open and look at the door cutout switches
which are mounted right next to the doors. Round switch covers
==phase 1, square covers == phase 2.
Listen to the air brakes, particularly a dump. Phase 2 (NYAB)
cars have a larger exhaust port and sound more like a sneeze
than a sigh.
3750-3799 were also back-lighted advertising panels as well according to my records so that would be 400 R32A and 200 R32, no?
Wayne
There were no 3700's like that. The dim backlighting began with 3800. The higher 3700's did however omit the wider rubber piece between the doors on the bottom that all older cars from the R-1's up had.
That wide rubber peice at the bottom was sometimes called "The Church Steeple" That was removed, thankfully, from all cars eventually, because people would sometimes get the toe portion of their shoes wrapped around it, the train would get indication & move out of the station.
According to the "Revenue & Non-revenue Car Drawing" book, the R-32s were designated as follows
R-32a 3350 - 3649 and 3946 - 3949 (Delivered with Pioneer Trucks)
R-32 3650 - 3945
In addition to all of the other differences already mentioned, R-32 Phase I have Vapor Door operators while the Phase II have Westcode.
By the way, all R-32s have GE Controllers, Phase I have GE Master Controllers and Phase II have Westinghouse Master Controllers. The master controller is in the cab while the controller (group switch box) is under the car.
The "Revenue & Non-revenue Car Drawing" book is wrong. The R-32/R-32A contract is delineated as follows (propulsion listed is as built):
R-32A
3350-3499 R-32A GE
3500-3649 R-32A WH
3650-3799 R-32 GE
3800-3949 R-32 WH (3946-3949 built with Pioneer III trucks; all built with advertising card backlighting and fan covers modified for improved ventilation)
R-32 vs. R-32A on the contract numbers had to do with funding. Half the cars were paid for using proceeds of bond sales (I can't remember whether they were the R-32s or R-32As). All R-36 cars, incidentally, were paid for by bond proceeds.
David
David
Where did you get your information from?
I'm curious about air brake sounds made by the older prewar equipment, specifically the Triplex units and Lo-Vs. As I recall, the R-1/9s would go "tch-ssss" as they slowed down and came to a stop; usually I'd hear this sound repeated as many as three times. Was it directly linked to the brake valve and how the operator applied the brakes? The BMT standards would go "tchhhh" just as they came to a stop with no "ssss". Those of you who remember riding these cars in revenue service or who have gone on the fantrips may be able to clue me in.
While we're on the subject of sounds, what about door sounds? On the R-1/9s and R-10s, you could actually hear the locks releasing as the conductor moved the triggers, then a sudden "ksssss" release of air just before the doors opened. The doors on the BMT standards made no pneumatic sounds at all; they opened and closed very smoothly and evenly. The R-10s, IMHO, had the fastest operating doors of any car class.
I miss the sounds made by the old equipment from the past. The sounds made by modern equipment are dull and antiseptic like so much of our life today. Now that I live in Chicago, I really miss these sounds. Some may not know, but ALL CTA rapid transit cars are "all - electric", thus no air-compressors for brakes or doors.
I remember sitting in a Bullet car in the 69th Street Terminal on warm summer afternoon many years back. The intermittent sound of the air compressor doing its job is something you can only experience in the operating museums today.
When the Budd cars on the EL retire, gone will be the distinctive sound of their air-compressor as it charges up to keep the required PSI.
The sounds you remember were due to two causes. First, the pre R-10 equipment had no dynamic brake so all stopping was pneumatic. More importantly, on the older equipment the motorman reduced brake pipe pressure to apply the brakes. Typically he would reduce brake pipe pressure by up to 20 PSI (any more would dump the train). The constant bleeding of brakepipe air is the sound that you heard (or hear on the museum cars).
BTW - If anyone in the NYC area is interested, the Museum cars owned & operated by the Transit Museum are maintained by "VOLUNTEERS" in the Coney Island Overhaul Shop on Tuesday nights. For those who have mechanical aptitude, this might be an easy way to get to play witht he "big trains". Anyone interested can E-Mail me and I'll get you the details. I do not know if they are actively recruiting currently but it can't hurt to ask.
Thanks for the info. I'm still led to believe the braking systems were perhaps a tad different on the R-1/9s vs the BMT standards. as I said, the standards went "tchhhh" just before they came to a full stop and not before. The R-1/9s would go "tchh-ssss" several times as the train slowed town and eventually stopped, which would be consistent with what you described. I was at the Shoreline Museum back in 1980 one day when they were moving R-9 #1689, and at one point it gave off its trademark "tchh-sss" sound. Man, did that bring back memories! They took it out on the mainline, and I was perched on one of the step plates, opening and closing the doors and just having a blast (I wished Shoreline had two of those cars the way Seashore does). The R-1/9s did not have interlocks, so you could run them with the doors open. On the return trip, one of us had to hold the rope for the trolley pole to keep it from jumping off the power line.
The sounds you remember were due to two causes. First, the pre R-10 equipment had no dynamic brake so all stopping was pneumatic. More importantly, on the older equipment the motorman reduced brake pipe pressure to apply the brakes. Typically he would reduce brake pipe pressure by up to 20 PSI (any more would dump the train). The constant bleeding of brakepipe air is the sound that you heard (or hear on the museum cars).
BTW - If anyone in the NYC area is interested, the Museum cars owned & operated by the Transit Museum are maintained by "VOLUNTEERS" in the Coney Island Overhaul Shop on Tuesday nights. For those who have mechanical aptitude, this might be an easy way to get to play with the "big trains". Anyone interested can E-Mail me and I'll get you the details. I do not know if they are actively recruiting currently but it can't hurt to ask.
I remember the R-6s having a distinctive "pssssp" that seemed to come from under one of the seats as they prepared to move (after the doors closed). I've always been curious as to what component made this sound. Some little valve, maybe?
While I'm on the subject of R-6s, there was one group of them that had
General Electric fans (most of the others, and the R-7s and R-9s as well had Westinghouse fans). These GE fans had different housings and a different bend to their blades. I wonder if there were other differences between this group and the others....
I'm starting to get nostalgic for the R-6s.
Wayne
The variable load valve on R1-9 cars is located under a
transverse seat. It resets electro-pneumatically when the
doors close. That's the sound.
Anyone have a .wav file of the braking sounds of the R1/6/9s?
I've been nostalgic for those prewar IND cars ever since they left the scene. That goes for the R-10s, too. My biggest regret is that I never had a chance to ride a prewar A train up CPW, although I did ride a couple of D trains along that stretch. The first car of the last old D train I rode had to be an R-4; it didn't have headlights. Ditto for the last prewar A train I took in January 1970. Now, THAT was a kick!
You know, I seem to recall that the doors on the R-1s and R-4s sounded different as they closed compared to the R-7s and R-9s I rode on the Eastern Division. I'm not sure where the R-6s fall in this category. The best way to describe the doors on the R-1s and R-4s would be similar to taking a large sheet of, say, construction paper and shaking it, while on the R-7s and R-9s, the doors sounded as if they were rubbing against something.
BTW, let's not forget the throbbing air compressor sounds, either. I used to love hearing that, too. They were pitched right around E above middle C, and would often drop to about C# as the train was about to get moving, if they hadn't cut out yet.
All this discussion of the R32s is fascinating.
I'd also like to know why the car movements are being done. Economies of scale regarding maintenance?
--Mark
Currently there are three major maintenance programs ready to commence involving the R-68s. First, they will be linked into 4 car units. At the same time, they will get their 12 year SMS (mini overhaul). Finally, the R-68s will get an advanced propulsion system referred to as E-Cam. The program will begin at the Concourse where the bulk of the R-68s reside. To accomplish all three programs, withing one calendar year, it will be necessary to have up to 20 cars in progress at any given time. Therefore, three trains (24 cars) will be transferred from Coney Island to the concourse. Jamaica shop will backfill Coney Island with three trains (30 60-foot cars). In order for Jamaica to meet it's service committments of 107 trains per day, it's necessary to get the 8 R-32s loaned to Pitkin Shop.
E-CAM on the 68s? Why bother? Isn't the "long-term" plan for
those car bodies to convert them to AC propulsion? Other than
the joy of plugging in the computer diagnostic and playing the
"Where's Westy?" video game, what maintenance or operational
advantage does ECAM have over the existing group?
C'mon Jeff. The advantage of the E-Cam over the old Westinghouse package is no Hot Grids and No Smoke Issuing. It's a matter of public safety. This will involve all 1500 R-68s, R-68As and R-62As.
Oh I didn't realize this was still a problem with the WH groups. It's been a long time since I've
seen a car pass with cherry-red grids.
Does the E-CAM upgrade retain the existing cam, contactors and
pilot motor?
Nope, it's off with the old box and on with the new. The only thing that's re-used is the field shunt coil...
Here's the transit Jeopardy question of the night. What is ECAM? Also, with Pitkin yard. Is it an all underground facility?
Pitkin Yard is on ground level (I remember going by it on Linden Bvld on my way to Grandmother's house in Flatbush - there was an open gate I used to see R10s galore there) and was covered up by an apartment building; I first saw this apartment building in December of 1970.
(The little hospital on the corner of Linden & Elderts Lane was converted into a nursing home about the same time)
Last time I was through those parts was in August of 1973.
ECAM? Don't have a clue. Somebody educate me! :o)
Wayne
E-Cam is the name of the advanced DC propulsion package sold by ABB Deimler Benz, which is the successor to Westinghouse Transportation Division. NYCT uses bot GE SCM-1 propulsion and Westinghouse Propulsion systems to control the operation of the trains. GE is primarily an electro-mechanical device where a pilot motor drives a cam controller which opens and closes various connections to control train speed and direction. Westinghouse uses air engines to control the same functions. The E-Cam differs in that the control of the system is far more dependent on solid state logic burned into E-Proms. There are far less moving parts on the E-Cam and current regulation is far more precise.
Does anyone have information on NYCTA fleet of road vehicles used to support Bus and Subway operations?.I have a photo of a bus maintenance truck which carries the number SUM-E-212-95. Is this a fleet number or other reference?...Also are their any sites on the web related to these vehicles??
Thanks in advance for any help or links!
Rob
London United Kingdom.
"SUM" refers to "Surface Maintenance". "E" refers to "Emergency". 212 is an index number, and "95" is the year of the vehicle's manufacture.
Thanks Charles for the information, any other fleet details??
Thanks
Rob
When I worked for the TA in the early 1980s, there used to be an office called "Truck Co-ordinator." The gentleman who ran that office was called Mark Yanche, who I believe is still with the Authority, but not in that office. You might try looking for the Truck Coord.'s office by calling the TA's main number.
Understood Charles thanks for the link, i came over to NYC on vacation during March this year and wondered what the numbering system
was after seeing numerous vehicles throughout the five Boroughs.Once
again thanks for the information, the road vehicle fleets that support Transit operations usually go un-noticed, despite the valuable
job they perform. Here in London the road vehicles are grouped as:
Emergency Response units (E.R.U)Which attend derailments/emergencies
:
Support services Which carry stores/general deliveries
:
Engineering Services Which carry maintenance staff/technicians
:
All carry a four digit one letter fleet number such as 2345L
the letter indicating the build type such as Leyland.
Rob
Does anyone have information on NYCTA fleet of road vehicles used to support Bus and Subway operations?.I have a photo of a bus maintenance truck which carries the number SUM-E-212-95. Is this a fleet number or other reference?...Also are their any sites on the web related to these vehicles??
Thanks in advance for any help or links!
Rob
London United Kingdom.
SUM would likely refer to Surface Maintenance and the 95 is the year of the vehicle. The other numbers are just ID numbers. I have not seen a roster posted anywhere as yet.
Due to trackwork in the tunnel, trains are running on the track (East Side IRT) uptown. To make up for the loss of West Side IRT express service, trains are running southbound on the East Side IRT, and northbound on the West Side IRT. The move from the East Side to the West Side is as follows: From Bowling Green, take the MV Track to the outer South Ferry loop, then proceed express past South Ferry all the way to Chambers St! And note that riders are permitted on board! In fact, passengers at Bowling green are invited to stay on board to "...proceed back uptown on the West Side IRT." After doing this once, I had such a good time that I rode up to 42nd Street, and took the 42nd Street back to Grand Central so I could ride it again! This second time in the Redbird train led by 8717, the ride past the three express stops (South Ferry, Rector, Cortlandt) was especially fun as 8717's horn had a two-tone (HIGH low) effect with the double-blast (I'm sure Steve B. would have been able to identify the notes had he been there).
At South Ferry, the towerman gives a "thumbs up" to the train operator to acknowledge the train won't stop, and he won't put out the moving platform (gap filler). At Chambers, when the arrives on the local track, the operator must call a tower (Bowling Green?) to ask for the interlocking to be set for crossover to the express track.
This move is not to be missed!
...And that's Transit and Weather Together for today!
Hey, how did you do that? I've been looking through HTML books to tryand find the markup for a colored disk with a letter/number in it, but couldn't find it among all the other HTML stuff. The closest thing I could find was "SHAPE=CIRCLE, but that was for unnumbered list bullets. I also couldn't simply copy the route markers from the MTA site's route by route service page.
I was wondering why they do all this weird rerouting instead of just extending the 5 to Brooklyn, and cutting the 2 in Manhattan, since the work is somewhere in the Clark St tunnel. It seems like they'll go to any length to get the 2 into Brooklyn, just like they put the E on Broadway instead of calling it the R. Could all of this routing of both 2 and 5 up each other's lines, with turns through South Ferry really be less confusing than sending the 5 to Brooklyn during non-normal hours?
SHHHH!!! You're giving the Transit Authority hints on how to do things in a simpler way, and a simpler way means a much less interesting and less exciting way.
BTW, am I the only one who gets enjoyment out of seeing the confused looks on platform faces when I'm on a train making a battery run?
You just mark up the urls for the various line graphics.
And if you're really cool (and annoying), you can even do evil backdrops too :)
The secret is to use the img tag, and
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/images/
Look at the source to this page and you'll get the idea!! And hit my home page while you're at
it!
You just mark up the urls for the various line graphics.
And if you're really cool (and annoying), you can even do evil backdrops too :)
The secret is to use the img tag, and
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/images/
Look at the source to this page and you'll get the idea!! And hit my home page while you're at
it!
How come what tag doesn't work? Any html in the "Message:" box is left intact. Even if it's incorrect, which will sometimes affect the rest of the document.
Thank you, but for some reason, It's not coming up on the preview. I go to that page, and copy the URL, and paste it here, adding the IMG tags, and I tried both with and without quote marks. Is there something I'm still not doing?
Besides, I wanted to know how to make my own bullets from scratch. That way, I could make them smaller, have the yellow Q, or the deeper gold eith white letters I like to use for Bway, and unused letters & numbers.
The southbound 3 turning back north at Times Square takes care of 148 St. service. True it is a weird reroute as the 5 goes non-stop around the South Ferry loop to Chambers St. But by doing it this way, passengers from Brooklyn have access to the West Side IRT. The alternative is all 2 & 5 s/b service normal & n/b # 2 service via the East Side. If this were done, you would also have no express service at all between Chambers St. & Times Square. Confusing reroute, but more stations have service this way. All they have to do is go across the platform at Bowling Green: IF THEY LISTEN TO THE ANNOUNCEMENT.
Agreed, but given the sound quality of station speakers in general, that may be easier said than done.
You know, Todd, when I heard you on the radio this AM I had a feeling you would do the loop more than once. It is nice to be able to understand something a weatherman said for a change .
For those who have not done it, you are out of luck for now. The GO was in effect only for 2 weekends (and this was the 2nd).
I did it in the opposite direction (2 around the loop and up to Wall St on the East Side)
One note aabout the South Ferry gpa fillers, however: They're automatic. They don't have to be extended manually. The train pulls in, and they extend. They CAN be manually operated, however, and must be in manual mode when a train is bypassing the station, lest they come out at an unopportune time...
-Hank
In a moment of potential indiscretion, I actually mentioned the downtown to uptown loop on the radio Sunday morning. The traffic guy, Dave Steckle, noted that the was running uptown on the East Side, but said nothing about the running uptown on the West Side. So when he introduced me, I said something like, "That's right, Dave, and the downtown leaves Bowling Green via the South Ferry Loop, and proceeds uptown on the West Side. It's an interesting ride, if you're a subway fan, and I did it twice yesterday! As far as today's weather is concerned..."
My anchorman, Wayne Cabot (who's also a rail fan), cracked up!
Unfortunately, my next shift on WCBS isn't until December 19... so I'm back here riding the MBTA in Boston for a month or so.
Yes, I heard him say something like "well, I'm glad at least you understood him (Dave) ..."
--Mark
Thanks for the reference, Todd. I'm sure I could. To tell you the truth, I've never physically heard, nor have ever heard of, a two-tone horn on any class of car. Door chimes, yes, horn, no. The R-1/9s and R-10s had a very high-pitched horn, about Ab above the treble staff, while every other postwar car I've ever heard sounds one octave lower, or about the pitch of the bull and pinion gears of a prewar train running at maximum speed.
I wish I could experience this ride myself. That run from Bowling Green around the South Ferry loop and up the West Side must be worth the price of admission, so to speak, and then some. You can see the switch from the mainline to the inner loop track from the southern end of Bowling Green, and I believe the switch from inner to outer loop track is probably just beyond that (you can see that switch on a 1 or 9 before reaching the station).
BTW, how fast did that 5 train take that straightaway run down Park Ave. between Grand Central and Union Square? Or the other straightaway from 14th St. to 34th St. up 7th Ave? I rode a few 2 trains of immortal Redbirds down 7th Ave. last month, and they cruised along smooth and fast, pretty close to 40 mph just before 14th.
I'm going to guess that both trains that I rode on the "circuit" reached a max of 40 mph on the Lex downtown straight-away, and 35 mph on the 7th Ave. uptown straight-away.
A clarification on the whistle: I didn't mean two-tone in the simultaneous sense, but rather a high tone for the first blast, and a lower tone for the second. My guess is that somehow the diaphram opens to a different size on the second pull of the cord, eh?
I knew what you meant by two-tone; i. e., high followed by low. Nontheless, I still haven't come across such a specimen. The D train I rode up to the Bronx during rush hour remained on the local track through Tremont Ave., stopping at 155th, 161st, and 167th Sts., then skipping 170th and 174-175th Sts. The R-68s have the same single-pitched horn as the other cars, and the operator beep-beep, beep-beep, beep-beeped as we passed through the last two above stations.
One odd thing: there is a crossover switch to the express track just past 170th St., yet our train stayed on the local track. It did switch over to the express track once we left Tremont Ave. and merrily trooped along at about 25 mph past 182-183rd Sts. No one will ever mistake the R-68s for the R-32s or R-38s, or even the R-10s.
http://arena.gleep.com/ this link will provide activity images of SF MUNI metro (subway-surface LRV operations
As a rider from Ridgewood, I can understand Greenpoint's lack of connection, and how it will get worse when the G is cut back to Court Sq all the time. I've used that passage trying to get from Ridgewood to the rest of Queens (the buses are slow), and I would have a real fit if I was left to use that to get to Queens Blvd. all the time.
So I thought that they could have built a loop from D2 to D1 north of Quens Plaza when they dug the new connecting tracks. Not only would this allow the G to terminate at the station and turn around, but you could bave also had the direct service to Manhattan people have been wishing for. (I think it would be awkward to have a northbound line connect into a suthbound line like that, but I see everyon wants it, and I can understand being so close and having no direct connection to Manhattan.)
Also, get this! When the connection is open, that the G would have to terminate at Court Square all the time is nonsense. On weekends it terminated at Queens plaza by switching over to the middle layup track D5. It cant do that now because D5 has TEMPORARILY been made into a through lead to D4 while the area is realigned, but according to Peter's track book, the final layout will be again have D5 as a layout track, and all the switches leading to it will be the same! So if the G could terminate there all those years before, there's no reason it couldn't then! The new connection will be beyond this point, so there would be no interference.
What does everyone think of these points?
I have seen some discussion in SUBTALK about the cityt building the 2nd ave subway from 125th Street to 63 rd St for 5 BILLION dollars!! To date the most expensive subway in the US was Los Angeles. Because it is in a earthquake prone area it cost a record $300 million dollars per mile. The 2nd Ave subway will apparently cost 3 times the record per mile! Do they plan to sheath the tunnels in gold leaf?
$5 BILLION DOLLARS??? And that's with two sections of tunnel already in place! No wonder bridges, tunnels etc. don't get built around here ; yet skyscrapers and apartment towers seem to materialize out of thin air...go figure
Wayne
[$5 BILLION DOLLARS??? And that's with two sections of tunnel already in place! No wonder bridges, tunnels etc. don't get built around here ; yet skyscrapers and apartment towers seem to materialize out of thin air...go figure]
Private construction always seems to get done much more quickly and cheaply than government projects. There are a variety of reasons. Construction unions see government projects as an ideal opportunity to feed at the public trough. Private projects usually have smoother labor relations even though they may pay the same wage levels. In addition, there are more layers of do-nothing bureaucracy to negotiate with a government project, not to mention more meddlesome politicians.
But Phil hit on the point here. If the 2nd Avenue subway were to cost $300 million per mile, we'd already be building it. Why so much?
This may be one reason. NYU's infrastructure institute e-mailed me a invitation to a conference on "Invisible Construction." Seems like the industry wants all kinds of requirements to "protect neighborhoods" by forcing public works to be "invisible." Perhaps that means hiring teamsters at $80 per hour to carry the rocks to the waterfront on foot. I wrote back and went ballistic -- do we really need more rules to make construction even more expensive? I guess the idea is they've jacked up the price so high only emergency repairs get done, so they need to figure out a way to make more on those repairs.
No one writes about this stuff. The New York Times will just report how wonderful it is that people are "protected." It goes on in the dark! If these vultures don't cut it out, they'll be feeding on a corpse.
[This may be one reason. NYU's infrastructure institute e-mailed me a invitation to a conference on "Invisible Construction." Seems like the industry wants all kinds of requirements to "protect neighborhoods" by forcing public works to be "invisible." Perhaps that means hiring teamsters at $80 per hour to carry the rocks to the waterfront on foot.]
Interesting stuff. Understand, of course, that the $80 per hour teamsters carry only one small pebble at a time.
Seriously, though, why does this nonsense apply only to public construction?
hmm its the government. IF say somone passed laws that said when the final designs were set they would be built except for emergeny modifications, than you make some dude the project "Owner" (this Owner is the delvoper, project leader) and after that run it as a private busness. when its done turn it over to the municpality that authorized its construction. simple a busness is formed, the governmet is its backers, and someone is held accountable. things if done that way would probally get done.
If there was some way for private owners to derive some other way of making money from the project it might get built. If there was ever a need to lay more fiber optic, T-1, T-3, or other lines underground, they might be able to defray some of the cost by running them in the same tunnels and leasing the space out to Bell Atlantic or whomever wanted to lay lines down there. (it would also be easier to get the space if you dug it out to BMT/IND width and ran IRT cars through them -- that would give you an extra few feet on one side of the tunnel that could be dedicated to utility lines)
You will perhaps be entertained to note that the "Chicago Tunnels" which moved freight in downtown Chgo (and flooded several years back) were built for phone lines, and today--long after shutdown of raul service are in fact used for both electric and communication cabling in the Loop area
What about water tunnels. With the opening of the new tunnel, aren't there some old ones that may be convertd to subway; perhaps one under the East River?
There're too small & would take only a single line even if you used a miniture light rail.
Also if the city has any brains they'll "line" the tubes & continue to use them.
Mr t__:^)
[What about water tunnels. With the opening of the new tunnel, aren't there some old ones that may be convertd to subway; perhaps one under the East River?]
The two existing tunnel systems will remain in use after the new one opens. Technically speaking, two systems are adequate. But having a third system will allow the existing ones to be closed temporarily for inspection and maintenance.
Even if feasible, I think the water tunnels are too deep to be practical for use as a subway. Too many issues boarding/alighting at stations and getting to the street.
--Mark
I was told by a TAer that it had hired a computer company to figure out how to run a fiber optic communications system through the subway for its own use (it would need sheathing due to electrical interference). The company said while you're add it, why not put a few other fiber optic lines in the cables, rent out unused rooms in the stations, and let phone companies lease the extra lines (like every other railroad in the country). Old time TAers supposedly balked -- we don't do things that way, who knows what will happen. The issue was unresolved the last time I spoke to the guy.
[I was told by a TAer that it had hired a computer company to figure out how to run a fiber optic communications system
through the subway for its own use **(it would need sheathing due to electrical interference)**.]
One of the properties of fiber optic is that it does NOT pick up electrical interference. (Can't do induction evesdropping, will not pick up static, hum, buzz, etc., etc. LIGHT waves are going through the fiber, not electrical energy. The only area that might need some shielding would be the rooms where the conversion equipment is located.
The phone company is running fibre in underground utility ducts all over the city, many of which are adjacent to high voltage Con Ed and subway feeder cables. Seems to be working for them, and others, too.
Unless i'm missing something, the comment, "we don't do things that way", says it all. (Translation: We don't want to do anything too radical! Worked OK for 94 years!!).
The tunnels were not built for phone lines. They were built for the railroad which ran trains used to deliver coal to office buildings in downtown and remove the coal ash and trash from those buildings. They also delivered mail and other various goods, but their primary function was coal delivery and ash pickup. I doubt they had phone lines in them for some time after they were built.
A fascinating system, isn't it?
While you are basically correct the original company was incorporated and received a franchise for telephone cable burial--se Forty Feet Below by Moffat
When ground was finally broken for the 2nd Ave. line in 1972, the projected price tag at the time was $2 billion for the 14.3 miles from Whitehall and Water Sts. to E. 180th St.
With all the setbacks this line has experienced through the years, it makes one wonder if it just wasn't meant to be. Even so, it is still needed.
Let me make a radical suggestion (knowing that I am safely 3000 miles from the proposed construction site). Rather than completing the Second Avenue Subway, what about an historically correct reconstruction of the Second Avenue El? In its early phase...complete with tank locomotives (or, at least, on envronmental grounds, electrically - heated visual replicas).
All right, I know that there's not a snowball's chance, but think of its potential as a tourist attraction, as well having a serious role in the everyday transportation system. A very rough analogy would be San Francisco's F Line (which, of course, was put in place for a fraction the cost and environmental impact of my "modest proposal").
Alan "and then we refloat the _Titanic_..." Follett
Hercules, CA
Not so far fetched, believe it or not.
One of the alternatives being studied (or was studied) was a Concrete Viaduct over 2nd Ave. This I was told at a Transit Museum sponsored Routes Not Built tour that took us into the 2nd Ave tunnel in Chinatown last year.
--Mark
Not too long ago i suggested resurrecting the ELS just in that fashion and everyone shot me down saying that too many people would protest it
I think it would be amazing. Great views, quick travel in manhattan
Well not everyone shot you down. Unfortunately the city would have only us buffs to support it, even though it would be the cheepest, quickest & least disruptive way to build the 2nd Ave. Why would we be the only advacates, who else can apprieciate the beauty of the ride top side.
Yes, you're right, I also thought the underground method would best serve the city transit long term goals, but above ground on single piers without steel showing isn't a bad alternate.
Mr t__:^)
In case you haven't noticed, the interests of three affluent people concerned about property values trump the interests of millions of people in New York. Tudor City stuffed the 42nd St trolley. Do you know how many lawyers live on 2nd Avenue?
Yah get Thomas the Tank Engine and friends to pull it too!!!
The Second Avenue Subway that I have designed cost 5 billion dollars for 5 lines that go into all 5 counties in the city and a shuttle to go J.F.K airport. The first line will go down the original third avenue line. The second line will come from Baychester Avenue. The third Line will come from Fordham Road on Southern Blvd. The fourth line will come form the Bay Plaza Mall. The fifth line will come 125 street already on Second Avenue. I have it all planned out the stations and everything I will send you a copy of the station plan if you want.
Christopher Rivera
And each day we wait, the price tag gets a little higher!
Only if Donald Trump gets approval to build the trump, er, trunk line :)
--Mark
Hey, the Boston "T" sells station sponsorships (hence "State/Citizens Bank" station). Why not do this on the proposed Second Avenue line? For so many hundred thousands or millions of dollars, and a committment to keep the station clean, you get a subway station named after you or your company or organization.
I would include the station-cleaning committment because of the relative success of sponsoring sections of roadway (company or organization agrees to pick up garbage on the side of the road, gov't puts up a sign acknowledging the sponsorship at each end of the sponsored section of road) and because it gives the sponsor an ongoing obligation in exchange for keeping the name on the station (if they completely default on the cleaning obligation, you can sell the station sponsorship again!).
What do you all think of this?
I'd like to turn over the maintenance of the existing subway. But there are union problems -- TA cleaners wouldn't like that. You could also name the trains, instead of just selling ad space. The Merril Lynch express? Why not, if Merril will keep it clean? We've got 600 to 700 trains, so why not 600 companies.
I don't picture the sponsors as completely responsible for the cleanliness of stations as much as the clearing of litter. Washing and painting, for instance, would still be TA tasks. This is exactly the same as the system of agreeing to keep a road free of litter in exchange for signs announcing that committment. The roads department doesn't give up the obligation to maintain the street, it just gets assistance in picking up litter.
It's probably not cost-effective to have each sponsoring company actually DO the maintenance that they are paying for. For each sponsor to go out and actually hire people to do the work and buy the cleaning supplies, etc. would probably cost more than the way it is now: have the TA hire station cleaners (or outsource) funded by the sponsorship contributions with appropriate recognition placed at the station (the signs announcing the sponsorship committment).
Hey everybody! I'm back! I have justn gotten out of the hospital because of a leg injury from my little trip down under, in search for that abandoned subway station, and man, you will not believe what my uncle and i foun!(we found something alright!)
I would like to tell you more, so, uh, mail me at:
Jr hoop86@aol.com
Thanx,hope to hear from you soon!
SEPTA's Holiday Trolley will roll once again on Fridays, in addition to weekends, this year, between Thanksgiving and New Year's. More info will be supplied as it is received, or check septa.com.
Hey Bob maybe you or somebody could answer a question for me. I took the El today from Frankford terminal to Center City today for the police and firemen thrill show. I have noticed for a while know that the trains have been a lot slower between Spring Garden and Girad. I can remember when trains really rolled pretty good through there. Any reasonwhy they slowed them up in that small stretch? Also had the pleasure of riding the new M-4's both ways. Even my girlfriend loved them and thats saying something.
Don't know. I've noticed a battery-operated flasher (yellow beacon) adjacent to the northbound track at the north end of Spring Garden station, but don't know what it's for - usually, this indicates trackwork or other construction occurring. To my knowledge, nothing is happening here. Maybe the rail is finally worn out... As you noted, this usually is a speedway for trains, but I noticed the slow move on the fantrip a month ago.
I find it interesting that the stations now sport signs for the benefit of motormen on M-4's which tell them "doors right" or "doors left". It seems to me that anyone who operates trains on the line picks up platform locations after the second or third trip through. I guess it can't help to have reminders...
Hey Bob I have another El question. This pertains to the El structure between I beleive Huntingdon & Somerset stations. The El at that point goes over which was once I believe a wide strectch of railroad tracks which are no longer there. But the interesting thing there is the El tracks split and after crossing those abandon tracks comes back together. Any reason why they split the structure at that point?
The El crosses the former Port Richmond branch (ex-Reading). The tracks stretched from one side of the R/W to the other at one time, not too long ago, and the place was hopping most of the time. I'm not sure why the El tracks split here. The El's bridge has a fairly long span (it clears the entire R/W), thus the need for the truss, but why it splits is beyond me. Maybe the thought was to have two lighter trusses rather than one 2-track wide heavier truss? (And I'm an engineer, so I should know something of what I speak here - of course, at the time the El was built, structural engineering was a little different and much more conservative than today.)
What isn't as obvious from El level is the height of the bridge. It climbs fairly high for the El to cross the railroad (one must consider that the railroad crosses OVER Kensington Ave, so the El is a good 35-40' from the street surface), and the structure is supported only by typical El columns, which do not generally have much in the way of foundations. With the given height and span, combined with the type of support, I'd say that my reason for the split in tracks and 2 bridges is probably accurate. But, then again, I don't want to pat myself on the back for getting the right answer just yet - perhaps someone knows better?
Interestingly enough, the crossing of Amtrak up the line between Tioga and Erie-Torresdale involves a truss bridge in a similar situation (maybe even a little worse - the Amtrak bridge is on a skewed angle, while the ex-Reading bridge is a 90-degree crossing - skews are always tougher, structurally). The Amtrak truss is much shallower and the tracks don't split. Go figure.
As a follow-up to the original string of this posting, the Holiday Trolley starts this Friday and will run every Fri, Sat and Sun from 10:15 am to 4:15 pm on the 11th/12th tracks between Bainbridge St and Noble St only. Cars will run on 20 minute headways. Sounds like the every hour southerly run down to Snyder Ave will not happen this year. PCC's will be used.
Does anyone know where to find signs and other memorabilia from nyc subway stations both in and out of service? Please email me at ruffalo@adelphia.net
Check out this place on Houston Street near the Bowery I think, but I'm really not sure of the cross street. It's an outdoor junk place with a whole bunch of subway signs for sale. I've seen signs from 9th Street and Broadway-Lafayette. Just be prepared to pay A LOT - most signs run around $200-$250 and the cheapest one is around $150.
Try Al Zelazo (Subway Al) who sells all sorts of cast off NYCTA items for the benefit of the Shore Line Trolley Museum. I've gotten a number of station signs from him at reasonable prices. Write to him for his catalog at this address: 5 Brentwood Drive Morris Plains, NJ 07950.
The Tranist Museum Gift Shop has some. I got some old stations signs from them.
You might want to try an on-line auction such as http://www.ebay.com. I checked today and someone there's a small station sign (from a pillar) for Begen Street with a starting bid of $19.99. The nicest feature of eBay is the ability to search on a word (such as "subway") and get only items with that word in the title. There are some risks, of course, since you do not know the person with whom you are dealing, but I've bought about ten items this way and been satisfied. Good hunting!
Once and a while, one or more come up at ebay.
Does anybody know how many of those special Metrocards with the advertisements on the back are usually printed?
And if they are printed in different quantities, which are the rarest cards?
Could somebody please explain to me and others out there exactly why 75 foot cars like the R68's cannot be run on the eastern division .
If I recall correctly, it has to do with tunnel curve diameter. Some
curves on those lines are too tight for the 75' cars...they'd simply
get wedged in the tunnel.
There is a spot east of Essex Street that would pose a sideswipe danger if two 75' cars were to pass each other simultaneously. Plus there's those nasty curves on the "L" - one between Morgan and Montrose, the other just outside of Graham. I don't think a 75-footer would clear either one. Crescent Street and Cypress Hills are issues too, even though elevated. So is the "M" curve east of Myrtle Avenue.
Wayne
It's not the one east of Essex, it's on the other side of the bridge approaching Marcy. Who knows, maybe that one will be eased during the reconstruction.
I *think* the approach to the bridge from Marcy Ave is supposed to be realigned as part of the construction project.
--Mark
Not a bad idea, but the point is moot. Even if the tracks connecting the WillyB Bridge to the Broadway El are straightened, the curves which cause the greatest constraint to car length still exist. These are at Broadway-Myrtle (M trains) and Crescent/Cyrpress Hills (J trains).
Anyway, this point will too be moot because the new B division equipment will be 67' long, just like the noble BMT standards that once graced these routes (deja vu!).
At least the R-143s will have bulkhead route signs - the lack of which was the one single factor about the BMT standards which turned me off. For some reason, I didn't find the three sets of doors on the standards all that appealing, either (I had gotten used to seeing four sets per car on the IND and BMT). OK, I was 10 when I first saw them, and thought they were the most godawful-looking things around. I didn't know any better.
AND (I forgot to mention this last night) the Canarsie Line's underground stations are about 512 feet to 520 feet long - not long enough to fit a 600-foot set of eight 75-footers.
I don't see them lengthening these stations either; some are very close to one another (Montrose/Grand, Graham/Grand, Lorimer/Graham,
Bushwick-Aberdeen/Broadway Junction)
Wayne
They could use the 6 car units from the G. It is also questionable whether the curve between Grand & Graham is a barrier. It doesn't seem as tight as the others, or even city Hall.
What I also now wish they would do is put 6 car R-68's on the M from Bay Parkway to Essex when the bridge closes next year. They'll run that far.
Based on the complaints voices on another thread, the MTA could get rid of the R-44s real quickly by puting them on the Eastern Division. Might cause some delays though, until they're all gone.
As said here time & time again, 75' cars can't fit on the Eastern Division. Even if they did, why do you want to make the Eastern Division people miserable? Are we the dumping ground for all the junk?
Based on that and the complaints voiced on another threat, the MTA could get rid of the R-44s pretty quickly by putting them on the Eastern Division and letting them sideswipe each other to death. (If course it would cause some delays until they're all gone, but they're only a few hundred of them)
What do you want now, a demolition derby? I'd rather see RTS buses have that kind of fate!
Yeah, 9000 series Fresh Pond Depot RTS buses.
Nah, all RTS with numbers under 4899....
-Hank
Those 9000's are sacred. They were the first brand new buses received by Fresh Pond since the 4000's & 4100's in 1985. Between then and the arrival of those 9000's, Fresh Pond has received used rejects from other depots. Those 9000's have great accelleration. Because when that operator taps on the accellerator, those 9000's whistle in the sound of powerful serenades. Now go stuff THAT in your turkey!!!!!!
You showed your true colors.Remember you cannot fool me.
This brings up the fact that the MTA NEVER learns from history....The old BMT solved their Eastern division problems for 25 years by ordering those old multi-section units (see Greller). These units were articulated so they could meneuver around the Eastern Division at relativley high speeds...according to Greller, the BMT used to be able to provide weekend service on the Canarsie line with a very small number of these units, freeing up men and equipment elsewhere (not to mention money!!)
Its funny-theyll buy artic buses but NOT artic trains!!
As a matter of fact, only five multis were needed to provide base service on the Canarsie during weekends. They certainly could snake their way around curves at daredevil speeds; it's no wonder they had "Hold on" signs posted everywhere. They could stop on a dime, too. It's too bad they were long gone by the time my love affair with the subway began.
The real reason the multis were designed was to come up with a vehicle which could run both in the subway and on the old, unrebuilt els. Had it not been for Mayor LaGuardia's anti-el stance, chances are even more of them would have been acquired. The Bluebirds were a victim of this: 50 were ordered, but then the mayor came out with his the-els-must-go edict. The five which were being built were completed, but the rest of the order was cancelled. LaGuardia felt the same way about streetcars; he nixed a 500-car PCC order for Brooklyn. The only reason trolleys lasted in Brooklyn until 1956 was to depreciate the 100 PCCs over 20 years.
The Triplex units were articulated as well; however, they were superheavyweights.
Put it this way: the BMT had some brilliant, innovative minds when it came to car designs.
Sunday afternoon, I was at the perverbial right place at the right time. At approx.4:30 PM, while driving westbound on the Northern State Parkway, I observed a train of new LIRR double deckers overhead on the Oyster Bay line overpass. The engine was on the east end with 4 or 5 cars. If the new cars are consistently assigned to this run the round trip schedule would be: leave Jamaica 2:38 PM, arrive Oyster Bay at 3:40 PM; leave Oyster Bay 3:59 PM, arrive Jamaica 5:05 PM. My 2 boys & I will be at Jamaica station one upcoming Sunday to take a trip if they're running.
Thanks for the info, Bill! I was at Jamaica a week ago Saturday for the 2:38pm and it was an old trainset. Perhaps they have to shift the new trainsets around to match engineer qualifications on the new engines?
I might just have to make a special trip south one of these weekend...
This tour was posted here in late October, it occurs December 6th and is limited to 40 buffs that will see the out of the way places at Times Square and elsewhere.
If you are a procrastinator like me (it's my middle name) ... don't bother calling because it's sold out.
P.S. Jersey Boy, are you going, if so please tell us what we missed !
Mr t__:-(
I'm going, Mr T ... be happy to share what we see. I hear we're going to the lower level of 42nd/8th Ave as well as inside the defunct Essex St trolley terminal.
The Routes Not Built tour that was supposed to be yesterday (11/22) was cancelled due to the tour guide being ill. It's supposed to be rescheduled in December (hopefully on a day that I can go :)
--Mark
>The Routes Not Built tour that was supposed to be yesterday (11/22)
>was cancelled due to the tour guide being ill.
D'oh! I cancelled on Thursday because I couldn't go on Sunday. I bet I can't get my place back now... :-(
-Dave
Well ... given the fact that many people were likely upset at the cancelling, I'm sure the NYTM will try to accommodate everyone, so don't give up yet.
--Mark
Mark, Thanks ... I've haven't been to one yet, I guess this site is turning me into more of a buff, Thanks Dave (I think).
Mr t__;-)
Unfortunatly Thurston, I delayed too long.
It's been in the back of my mind, but I wanted to be certain I would be available on that date. As it is, I'm scheduled to be in Virginia that week, well, at least for the next few days anyway and there were other factors that I couldn't commit to going.
Shucks. I want to hear about it though.
I'm a bit surprised that no one else has pointed the following out, I don't consider myself a "bus buff", but I am able to obtain some interesting tid bids of information:
Apparently Jamaica Bus Company still has 15 Flxibles from '81 in active service, so for those who love them you have three choices: LI Bus (just a few remaining), NJ Transit (lots, for the present) & those Red Striped coaches in Queens.
Mr t__:^)
[I'm a bit surprised that no one else has pointed the following out, I don't consider myself a "bus buff", but I am able to obtain some interesting tid bids of information: Apparently Jamaica Bus Company still has 15 Flxibles from '81 in active service, so for those who love them you have three choices: LI Bus (just a few remaining), NJ Transit (lots, for the present) & those Red Striped coaches in Queens.
Mr t__:^)]
Don't forget Rutgers University! They're free too.
Suffolk Transit (the buses to nowhere) have a few - #9333 is one; I think all the 9300s are Flxibles. Bus #9333 prowls my neighborhood, usually found on the North Babylon loop route.
I remember the OLD Flxibles - the ones with the "beetle brow" from back in the 1970s - they were #5600 and #5700 series for NYCT, also
#4600 and #4700 too. These were the ones before Grumman got their hands on the company (Flxible-Loudonville, OH, I think)
Wayne
The Baltimore MTA still has Grumman Flxible Metros dating from 1982 in service. I saw 3534 working the 19 line on a recent Sunday. We all thought that the arrival of the NABI 9700's (40 footers) killed the 35's.
The 3500's were the last MTA buses to be numbered with the first two digits not being the year of purchase.
The MTA loved Flxible's - that's all they bought from 1982 to 1995 - until FLX bit the dust.
Hey Wayne, since I am a resident of Suffolk also, Iwas wondering if you knew where they store the suffolk county buses.Are they run by Suffolk county or Inter-county Motor coach. I see one or the other on them. How about H.A.R.T. where do they store their buses? Thanks.
Some of the Suffolk Transit buses are stored in Greenport. There's a facility just before you enter downtown.
Mr t__:^)
Flxibe Metro buses will be around for many years to come, but the buses that Mr. T referred to at Jamaica Buses are actually Grumman Flxibe 870's - the model that had the defective A-Frames. The Flxible Metro that are so popular succeeded the 870. And of course, Grumman sold the Flxible division which is why The "Grumman" nameplate was replaced by the "Flxible" nameplate. MSBA (LI Bus) and NJ Transit actually had both Grumman Flxible 870's and Metro's. NYCTA only had Grumman Flxible 870's
Wayne, Thanks for the correction all the way from the nation's capital !
With a little help from my friends i'll get so I know this stuff a little better !
Mr t__;-)
Mr. T,
You're doing just fine. I know that the whole scene is quite confusing with ownership changes and so on. The Grumman Flxible 870/Grumman Flxible Metro/Flxible Metro is definitely confusing - expecially since they look nearly identical. This without evening mentioning the RTS and Classic with all of the changes they've gone through.
It's easy for me, but I've always been a bus buff as well as a subway buff.
Wayne
I remember the Flexibles from the old school runs NYCTA used to do (1983), I hated them because I hit my head on the ceiling all the time.
I'm 6'8" and I remember always haveing to duck.
NJ Transit retired all of its 1981-1983 Flxible Metro A's (#1000-1464) with the 1994 Metro D and 1996 RTS orders. They still run the ex-NYCTA Grumman 870s, which are numbered 1500-2518. Next April, NJ Transit will be receiving new Nova Buses which will replace all of the remaining Grummans.
I also understand that NJ Transit had a few CNG-powered Metro C's with the 1989 order. I seen them a few times and rode on them once or twice, but I haven't seen them lately. Anyone know their status?
NJT also has some Flxibles numbered 31xx . WIll they also be retired?
Those buses are also Metro B's from the 1989 order, but they are in suburban configuration. All of NJT's suburban buses are numbered in the 3000-series.
I highly doubt that they will be ditched, but they are creeping up on ten years in service -- NJT already has many suburbans from the 1994 order and if the next order also includes some suburban buses, start looking for the camera.
The 3000's down here in South Jersey all look pretty good despite their age. It seems as if more and more are showing up here all the time. At one time, there was a specific block of 3100's (from about 3130 up to about 3164) assigned to this area, but I've seen more 3000 series as well as some lower number 3100's on the routes in the Phila area.
The 1200 series transit group which was assigned to the intrastate runs only disappeared about this time last year, with replacements a hodgepodge of 1700 (NYCT's) and 2100-2300 series buses. Lately, I've noticed more 3000-3100's on the NJ runs with many more 3700's on the Phila routes. The Eagles continue to serve 409, 413 and 419, hardly ever venturing onto the other routes, even the seashore runs.
The 1700-buses are NOT ex-NYCTA.
I admit I didn't make this clear in my previous post, but the buses numbered in the lower 1700-range are 1989 Flxible Metro B's (transit), and the higher 1700-1900-series are the 1994 Flxibles. The ex-NYCTA's are 1500-1600-or so, which were not rebuilt. The rebuilt ones are the 2000-2500.
I don't really know too much about the bus assignments in South Jersey, so I can only speak of north Jersey, where I ride NJ Transit quite a bit.
I do know that there were some depot shifts and assignment changes over the past couple years or so, but they're not easy to keep up with since NJ Transit seems to keep things a big secret when it comes to their buses. I've never even seen any bus map of any kind, NJ Transit or Hagstrom or anything else.
Instead they have a really crazy thing: A "map" with hubs and spokes. The hubs are towns and the spokes are the buses that travel between them . . . .
I think it's because NJTransit has an inherently complicated bus routing system.
They can fundamentally separated into two distinct categories, one I'll call commuter, one I'll call local. The commuters are usually MCI equipment headed to Newark, New York City, Camden, AC, or Philly. The locals are operated by different divisions, Red and Tan I believe in parts of North Jersey for example, TCT in Middlesex and Monmouth Counties. The separation comes from understanding that at one point, these were all separate bus companies from the get-go, e.g. Monmouth Bus Lines in Monmouth County. So routes tend to be numbered in their traditional numbers that were used from way back when. In Middlesex and Monmouth, they begin with M, such as M14 or M22. I can't speak for what happens in other counties.
The routes themselves are inherently complex, they turn here, they turn there... remember NJ is not a simple grid like Manhattan, and is many many times larger. I imagine there must be hundreds of bus lines, and to attempt to show details about them all would be a mammoth task. I have yet to seen any attempt to try to publish information about all of NJTransit's operations, short of the hub and spoke map which Bootsy mentioned. In fact, London's bus maps are similar (at least the ones I have from 1987) but more detailed. The web site, last I checked, basically asked you to call NJTransit to find out details about the bus system.
Bergen and Passaic County routes also used to have letter prefix's
(B for Bergen, P for Passaic). A few years ago, though, they were changed to 700-series numbers (P22 became 722, B80 became 780, etc.)
They were also run by Community Bus Lines, but are now fully run by NJ Transit.
They are fairly organized (most originate/terminate or pass through Hackensack, Passaic, Paterson, or Paramus), but some have lousy schedules and most don't run on Sundays.
They get the job done for me, though, mostly for intra-Paramus (between malls) rides. And I can always count on the 163 or 168 to get me back to the City.
You are correct - I meant to say 1600's and typed 1700's instead. There are examples of both on the South Jersey lines. There were also some assorted 2000's in Atlantic City for a while but I'm not sure if they're still there. NJ Transit further complicates things in this neck of the woods by shifting transits around among Atlantic City, Trenton (ex-Mercer Metro), and the two operating garages in the immediate Phila-Camden area (Newton Avenue and Washington Twp). It is VERY hard to keep track of what's where!
I know that in Norfolk, the TRT uses both the Flxibles (late 80's-1991 models) and 1993-94 NABI's also did an unusual modification to their Flxible fleet. Took the rear engine access door off and replaced it with an identical looking door from their NABI fleet lights included.
Another company that uses Grumman Flxibles on a regular basis is Trans-Hudson Express(subsidiary of Red & Tan/Coach USA fomerly Drogin Bus co.) of Jersey City on the 122(Jersey City-Staten Island via Forest Ave/Clove Road) and 144 (Jersey City-Staten Island via Richmond Ave) routes. However since Red & Tan takeover of the lines they've been deplyoing newer MCI 57-seater coaches on those 3 routes. Needless to say, I would expect the Grummans to be around until 2001-2002 at the least.
Over in Jersey City there are a few small "mom & pop" local bus lines that use Grummans in everyday service. The Lafayette & Greenville company is one. I've spotted Grummans working the Academy Line's local routes in Hoboken and on the Hoboken Terminal-PABT shuttle as well.
While riding the Q-33 from LGA to Roosevelt Ave. on Friday, I saw a brand new "clean air" bus parked at the Triboro Coach depot (sorry Mr. t!). It was numbered 3001, I believe.
Here's another tid bit for you bus buffs:
Triboro Coach Corp. has 16 buses powered with Methanol and (toady) 24 with CNG (TMC-RTS) & are going to get 60 more of Orions.
I took a quick look through the TA '98 Insider's Guide & don't see that the TA has any of these, so you'll have to come to Queens if youi want to catch one of them.
Mr t__:^)
Mr. T,
The TA did have a 1990 TMC RTS-06 (#8397) at one point. I saw it a few years ago when it was at Flushing (Casey Stengel) depot. Does Triboro still have their original methanol GMC RTS-04's. I had ridden on M-1, and M-5 a few times.
Yes, I was on Triboro M-1 just the other day while riding the dreaded Q-33.
Wayne, Apparently they have five old ones, from 1986: M-1, M-3 to M-6
then 11 more from 1994.
The "Mega Calendar", that I have mentioned a few times, is a good source of photos of various buses that the TA was "testing" at some point. We, "privates", are also sometimes asked to "test" a bus, but more often the TA tests and we "me too", not that that's a bad thing.
Mr t__:^)
They are lousy buses from what I undestand. M 3 doesn't even run at all. It looks like they'll scrap them when the rest of the orions come in.
Equipment has been tight for all the companies in NYC, i.e. TA & "privates", so we've had to try to keep as much of it running as possible. E.g. that's why we got some '79s GMS-RTS out of storage. We got to the lot first & picked out about a dozen that looked like they still had a few more miles left in them. I imagine Triboro was doing the same with the '86 Methanols. I'm also sure they're happy to see their 60 new Orion CNGs come in to replace them.
Mr t__:^)
Dear Sir/Madam:
When the 2nd Avenue subway is ever built or opens, what will the
possible letters be? Someone told me that the T, U or Y is used for
the 2nd Avenue subway.
James Li
I thought that they were going to be numbers like 14,12,8 and 10.
Christopher Rivera
Dear Sir/Madam:
In a previous response, I got infomration about higher numbers
on the IRT signs. They said the signs go up to 13. But I heard there
is a 14 sign also. What will 12, 13 and 14 be used for?
James Li
Just trying again to see if anyone has info on NYC Subway Riding Records. Can't find much on this subject (even Guiness has very minimum information on this). I'm a former record holder from way back (1967) and I'm trying to see the history of any records up to currently. Used to be an official committee and everything. Any record holders or any one who just has some info, please post a response.
I don't have any info for you but I do have some questions. When you got the record what were the rules? Did you have to ride the full route for every train? Did you have to stop at every station? Did you have to ride both express and local tracks? Did you have to ride both trains on a skip-stop service?
What strategy did you use? Did you take the rare or limited trains during rush-hour? Did you make sure never to have to do long transfers, for example the N to the A at 42nd street?
When we (myself and 2 friends) broke the record, there were 3 different classes of competition. As I mentioned, this was back in 1967 so my memory of all the details isn't perfect. We did Class C, which is the fastest. You can take express service and only have to PASS THROUGH each station. The other classes had restrictions along the line of some of your questions, like if the E/W or N/S tracks were more than 100 feet apart you had to travel BOTH! I didn't plan the route by the way, I was the record keeper. You had to have the time you got on a train, where, and the 1st car#. I do remember one key element of the route was to go through the Rockaways late at night to get a rare train that went to Rockaway Park AND Far Rockaway. For the record, OUR record was set at 8:51 PM on June 16, 1967 for 22 hours and 39 minutes, and held up for less than a year.
The only info I have found is a Guinness World Record Holder Calendar (with a different record for each day), which lists
"The record time for traveling the whole New York City subway system is 26 hours 21 minutes 8 seconds, set by Kevin Foster (U.S.), October 25-26, 1989".
This was probably a "Class A" trip ???
Re: Guinness Calender, Kevin Foster - I couldn't say if its Class A or what, the system has changed greatly since 1967, making what a "good running" time is unknown to me. That's one reason I'm interested in the history of the record. Thanks for the info tho'
One thing's for sure - the trains ran faster in 1967. Plus, the venerable R-1/9s still ruled the IND (except for the A, of course). I'll even bet you rode a rush hour E train of brand new R-38s along Fulton St!
They only equipment that stands out in my recollection are the wooden cars on the (I think) Myrtle Ave El. Also consider the vast number of route changes, eliminated lines, added stations, eliminated stations, etc. That's kind of the reason I'm interested to see how the "fastest run" changed through the years as the system changed. Hope I'm not being repetative but it seems there was MUCH more interest in this type of thing 30 years ago, we were celebrities then, recognized by riders during our run!
Yep, the Myrtle Ave. el was still in business back then with its wooden Q units. The unrebuilt section west of Broadway ended operation in 1969. The rest of the line is still served by the M train.
I don't have any info about current records (someone on this site was trying to organize a run for it late last year), but I do remember that a Rebecca Morris did it in 1973 and wrote about it for the Sunday Daily News. I don't know her running time, but I presume it would be in the article. I *Think* she did it in August 1973.
--Mark
Thanks Mark, that's the first record anyone has come up with between 1967 and 1986! Off to the stacks to investigate. FYI - Prior to our run in '67, I THINK the record was held by a group from MIT that used a computer program to devise their route. Pretty cool stuff for the 1960's! Might also mention the names of my fellow record holders, Robert Stannish who planned the route and Mike Sheahan who did P.R.
why should the new trains go to the JMZ or L, barring size specifications? they should go to the lines that serve a wide portion of the city, like the A, B, D, Q, N R. keep giving the j m z and l riders the trash.
Look, just because the JMZ or L dont go uptown or to midtown doesnt mean that the lines are trash. Because these train go into neighborhoods like bushwick and williamsburg dont mean they are trash. Believe me ive lived on these lines all my life and we workers who take these trains are the ones who friggin work uptown and midtown!
And remember, the JMZ go straight into the heart of wall street and city hall!!!!!!!
They also take commuters to the LIRR which lead to the suburbs and beieve me alot of suburban people take it to jamaica instead of gettin on at penn station
So we deserve the new trains just as much as the other lines do!!!!!
Don't forget: the BMT standards served the Eastern Division until the last ones were retired in August of 1969. They were anything but junk. Except for maybe a humungous blizzard, nothing slowed them down. There are those who say they were the best subway cars ever built.
All talk of "trash" aside (as it doesn't really belong here) - the "L" is getting new equipment because it is going to be the home of an automated train control/signal system (since it pretty much stands alone except for the Flyover at Broadway Junction) and the R143s will be compatible with this system.
While I am not overly fond of R42s and R40Ms (I'm a Slant R40 man) - I don't feel that any of these car types could be considered "trash", despite their thirty years of service.
Wayne
I was always under the impression that the SOAC was based on the R-44 since it was built by the St. Louis Car Co. and the R-44 was the last transit car body it produced, hence the similarity to the R-44 design. In the SOAC booklets, it states that the two car train was to be a forerunner of the ACT (Advanced Train Concept). Does anybody know if ACT was actually implemented in any form of a transit car?
Does anyone have information on this Bus company ==SEAT,operates in Norwich Conn.
Thank you
Steve
My sister lives there ... i'll give her a call ... need to find out what her kids want for Christmas anyway.
BTW, ever gone to see the Norwich Navagitors (Yankee AA) team play ?
I had the dumb luck of being there a couple of years ago when David Cone was trying out his arm. My niece caught one of the fowl balls off that arm.
Mr t__:^)
Thank you ,Thurston
Steve
What kind of info do you need? Im at Unv of Conn right now and a good friend of mine up here lives in Norwich. What do you need to know?
I am looking for Bus Maps and Bus Schedules
Thank you
Steve
I almost caught a foul ball at Shea once. A guy in front of me in the mezzanine got it. No big deal.
Does anyone know if that AC test train(cars 4040-4047) is still running on the C line. I haven't heard anything on it in about a year. Lots of problems with it I understand. Thanks.
I saw #4046 and #4047 as units 7 and 8 on an A train on November 15, as well as #4042 and #4043. The consist was as follows: #4042-3; #4050-1; #3968-9; #4046-7 and #4112-3 (northbound lead car first).
I also saw #3644 on the E; I believe his ex-mate #3645 is part of an odd-couple with #3420...I didn't see the number of #3644s new mate, anyone know who she is?
Wayne
From the sounds of things it seems that the AC experiment is over for the R38s. I guess it wasn't successful otherwise those R38s wouldn't be mixing with everything else. These were converted back to DC. Actually, I got the opportunity to ride the ACs sometime back on the C and they weren't so bad. The only difference I could tell was that the tractions motors have more of a whine than its companions.
I could've sworn I've heard that the TA had been thinking about testing AC propulsion on the R44s. Is there any truth to this?
-Constantine
A-Are there any station entrances closed in the morning around Times Square?
B-Over the past two nights I have watched the special report about how SEPTA workers sloth is costing taxpayers money and the riding public their safety. They visited the Comly Depot in NE Philly and were greeted by less than hospitable SEPTA employees telling them to "get off SEPTA property or we'll sue!"
They found workers asleep on buses at 3:15 am. While it's understandable that they're tired, they were to be working until 3:45.
When they took this tape to union leader Steve Brookens(the Toothless Wonder) he said he didn't belive their findings(as in,he thought they were lying) and made that clear in no uncertain terms by throwing their equipment across the room while grunting "You're done, get out!"
I've always had a special place in my Transit Hall of shame for SEPTA workers, but I doubt that they went on strike for 40 days for better work rules(actually, a lot were the same) and then having those rules, don't work.
My suggestion, Mr. Leary, get 'em all fired on some loophole and get some folks in their who will work!
Last night there was the second part, talking about how their sloth is endangering the riders.
They followed two buses with loose covers over the alternator, evidence of exhaust seeping into the cab and several electrical hazards. These buses carried CHILDREN to and from school, one in NE Philly and the other in SW Philly. It required no more than opposable thumbs to lift the covers to a 240 volt charge.
These people are wasting my tax money, Bobw's tax money and still insist that SEPTA is the villain.
As I stated, I always had one man in solitary in my hall of shame, Mr. Hylan, of course, but he is joined by many members of TWU 234 and the world's second most eloquent gorilla, Steve Brookens.
I've been on both sides of this ...
As a union steward, charged with protecting my members rights, the easiest thing was to find that management hadn't done their homework, i.e. didn't cross a t or dot an i. Then I would push to have the management action thrown out because they didn't do it right. That ment we didn't even have to talk about what the worker did.
As a boss I remembered this and was very careful to follow the procedures and steps, AND not to get mad about it.
The point here is that management will gain the respect of their employees if they are willing to count to ten when they see something. If the guy/gal is a bad employee they do the bad thing again and again. Document, document, document. Maybe the employee will turn around and become your best, if not it sure won't be a surprise when they finally end up in the street. Yes, these things take lots of time, that's the rules & they prevent the boss from over reacting to the smallest little thing. The worst thing is to go to a hearing and loose it. Now the whole staff will punish you.
As I've said before, I'm in management and like it better then being a union member, but society needs strong unions to keep management honest ... just not t-o-o strong.
Mr t__:^)
Jack, I knew this would strike some nerves! Thanks for the "plug" for my tax (and fare, since I'm not only an investor, I use the system) money.
I watched the Channel 29 reports also. Like many of these "exposes" that show up during sweeps periods, I took it with a grain of salt. There are many hard-working folks in the SEPTA system and they should be commended. But, there are the bums shown on the report, and it's a bit scary when we have to ride these vehicles.
A couple of things hit close to home.
One, I ride the Volvo articulated buses frequently. You can literally get asphyxiated riding many of these, as the exhaust vents thru the bus. For those of you who doubt this, the report showed many buses with sooty grime covering the insides of the vehicles. This is the result of the exhaust. My wife knows when I've been on an artic on the way home - she can smell it when I walk in the door of my house. Imagine having to breathe this for 40-45 minutes, on a bus with no opening windows (another SEPTA bright idea - someone might let the AC go out a window that opens).
Two, SEPTA has 400 Ikarus buses, many just passing their first anniversaries in service. They were delivered with a SEPTA insignia installed to the curbside of the front sign. The insignia is supposed to light up at night so you know a SEPTA bus is coming (is this like the Batman signal or something???). For the first time, I saw one of these lit up this past Monday. For the first time! The large front signs which were installed on these buses to help patrons are also no good since the flourescent lights which illuminate them at night are burning out and not being replaced. Where is maintenance?
Three, Steve Brookens remains an idiot. He showed this to all who watched the report when he ended the interview violently and threw the camera lights to the floor. Way to evolve, Steve! In today's paper, there is a story on his possible run for City Council next year. We can hardly wait.
I hate to say it, but SEPTA - "Serious About Change", as its new motto implies, doesn't seem all that serious to me.
A colleague here is a BIG bus buff and now is into collecting MCs thanks to me |:-0, he says that many of the locked bins for used MCs are broken open.
So now I'm interested to here from one of our Station Agent friends, is this the case ... why ... collectors, others thinking there just might be some money left on one of the cards ?
P.S. - Yesterday I ducked into one at Northern Blvd on the IND but found it nicely locked.
Mr t__:^)
Click below to read an article in today's NY Times about the TA's budget surplus:
href="http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/news/national/regional/ny-transit-surplus.html">New York Times Article
Vallone says the surplus should be used for hiring 600 workers to clean subway cars and stations; for reducing express bus fares to $2 from $3, and for increasing subway service to insure that no one has more than a five-minute wait at rush hour.
I say that the increased service should come during non-peak hours. Rush hour service is quite good. It's rediculous that I shouldn't be able to get a seat on the D train at 2 in the morning on a weekday night.
Today's online edition of the Journal of Commerce (www.joc.com) has an interesting article about freight rail service to NYC and other points east of the Hudson. It seems that within the next few weeks, the federal Surface Transportation Board is expected to hear Canadian Pacific's request for the right to use the soon-to-be-CSX route east of the river. Should this be granted, as expected, it's likely to lead to a significant expansion of freight service into the city - and may render moot the issue of the cross-harbor freight tunnel.
Peter, That is very interesting, and just last night I was reading a copy of the AAA monthly "Car & Travel". In it is a interview with the new chairman of the (NYS) Senate Committee on Transportation, Owen H. Johnson (R-Babylon LI). The article was written by Douglas Love, but the photo of the interviewer is female, so was not Doughlas.
He was asked "Tell us ... what you would like to see the Transportation Committee do ..."
He responded "Get more freight onto the railroads and off of the highways. One of the ways to do that is to build a tunnel from NJ to Brooklyn ... The roads here on LI are overcapacity now, and LI is still growing. It's an issue north of NY, too. There's talk about making a seperate freight line along the Metro North line."
Disclaimer: I've credited the source & quoted less than 400 words from the article, so no copyright violation.
Mr t__:^)
From what I read in the Journal of Commerce article, the current plan doesn't involve any actual construction. All that would happen is that the Canadian Pacific would get trackage rights over the line which CSX is inheriting from Conrail. I take that to mean the line along the east shore of the Hudson used by Amtrak and by Metro North's Hudson line. This solution wouldn't be ideal, as double-stacks still wouldn't have access to NYC or Long Island (except via the cross-harbor barges), but the idea seems to be that it will significantly increase freight traffic.
Thanks for the post.
It's about time our political "leaders" are starting to take a serious look at furthering rail-freight into New York City and Long Island.
For one thing clearing the roads of those monstrous tractor-trailers would give our roadways a chance to recover from years of abuse from much-too-heavy loads that lead to the almost yearly repaving of the major arteries. Secondly, with freight trains you have a set right-of-way where "civilians" would not become newspaper statistics due to any debris/objects that may fall off a load (much like happened just a few days ago on the LIE). Thirdly, the NYC area would have much better air quality with fewer trucks spewing Carbon Monoxide in their travels.
Let's keep our hopes up for the legislature to do the right thing.
cya BMTman
Getting freight off the highways is a must. In addition to vastly expanded rail freight, how about using pipes to deliver energy via natural gas and oil, cutting back on Oil and Coal Delivery throughout Manhattan. What about an improved sewage system which would allow Resturants and homes to use Garbage Disposal units to cut back on Sanitation Trucks. I read somewhere that 6% of New York waste is Food Matter that could be disposed of as sewage.
Any other creative Ideas???
Thanks for the post.
It's about time our political "leaders" are starting to take a serious look at furthering rail-freight into New York City and Long Island.
For one thing clearing the roads of those monstrous tractor-trailers would give our roadways a chance to recover from years of abuse from much-too-heavy loads that lead to the almost yearly repaving of the major arteries. Secondly, with freight trains you have a set right-of-way where "civilians" would not become newspaper statistics due to any debris/objects that may fall off a load (much like happened just a few days ago on the LIE). Thirdly, the NYC area would have much better air quality with fewer trucks spewing Carbon Monoxide in their travels.
Let's keep our hopes up for the legislature to do the right thing.
cya BMTman
While providing rail competition into NYC should improve service there, I do not think that it would render the proposed rail tunnel moot. For shipments coming from anywhere south of NYC, a rail tunnel would still bypass 100+ miles of heavily congested lines, much of which are strictly passenger much of the day. Furthermore, for stuff coming from Chicago, the freight rail hub of the continent, the competition would be rather token, as Canadian Pacific will not have an effective or direct route. This will particularly prevent them from running intermodal trains, which is a very effective way of getting trucks off streets.
I think that Long Islanders should be at least as pro-rail tunnel as city residents, since it should take trucks off the street *and* reduce the cost of things...
According to the article, giving Canadian Pacific access to New York would mainly be of use for shipments from eastern Canada. That's apparently more significant than might be imagined, as a great deal of newsprint and other paper comes from the area. It also could be important given the rapid growth at the port of Halifax.
I'm sure that Canadian Pacific's immediate goal is shipment of freight from Eastern Canada, but David is right that CP's starting to use the Hudson Line tracks for something does not alleviate existing problems, and specifically the problem of getting freight from S. & W. of NYC to the City and points E. I know that you are against the idea of a tunnel under N.Y. harbor, but I don't think that CP's plan gets you anywhere because it does not demonstrate a solution to an existing problem.
Also, FWIW, there are three problems with CP's plan, even from CP's perspective, one of which has already been identified (lack of clearance for double-stacked TOFC). The other two are the poor connection from the Hudson Line RoW over Hell's Gate, and the poor safety record of mixing freight traffic and passanger traffic on the same tracks. A rail tunnel from NY to NJ might not solve the first problem (clearances through Brooklyn are, I believe, too low for 2xTOFC), but would impact the second problems.
--mhg
--mhg
You are correct that I'm opposed to a cross-Harbor freight tunnel. While it theory it might be a useful idea, it would be enormously expensive and take many years if not decades to complete. It's telling that neither CSX nor Norfolk Southern (or Conrail before them) have expressed any interest whatsoever in the tunnel idea even though their operations would be affected by one. In addition, there is no longer a significant volume of freight use in Brooklyn, Queens, Nassau or Suffolk. At least in the case of the latter two, most of the industry is of the industrial-park variety that wouldn't use rail. The Heartland Industrial Park in Suffolk County has been growing rapidly and is located literally next door to the LIRR. Yet there aren't any spur line and as far as I know no demand for any. The same lack of interest in rail is seen with the expanding industrial area around MacArthur Airport - it's close to the LIRR, but without direct connections. My point is that spending countless amounts of money on a rail tunnel *hoping* that demand will arise is pointless.
One substantial reason that those located right next to freight ROW do not use it is that it takes SO l o n g to get a freight car onto the island.
No one is suggesting that someone is going to open a steel mill in Garden City as a result of the tunnel. However, Brooklyn Queens Suffolk and Nassau have a LOT of people, who use a LOT of stuff. Much of that comes into the metro area on rails and goes through NYC on trucks to get to where its going. This is enoromously abusive for NYC roads. The idea is that the rail tunnel would be worth it since would reduce this wear. Further, it would move more freight to rails for its entire journey, thus reducing pollution and highway wear across the country.
CSX and NS have enough to worry about with the takeover of conrail. Conrail, meanwhile, was not a railroad that thought much about growth. I would guess that NS might have some interest once they digest conrail.
There are other arguments, about deepwater ports, econonmic development, and fairness re. the port authority. But I think the transportation issues make sense.
Re: [Much of that comes into the metro area on rails and goes through NYC on trucks to get to where its going.]
I don't think that's absolutely the case. It's costly to put goods on/off a train, then on/off a truck. So, I think a lot of the stuff is just plain long haul trucks (point to point). That means the wear & tear is on roads outside of NYC ... so a larger part of the population would benifit from a Hudson Rv. tunnel !
Re: post in prev. thread ... industrial parks on LI ...
One important point missed here was discussion about a piggyback yard for LI. RxRs like industrial sites that have a LOT of car movements, i.e. a few box cars here and there isn't profitable, but a whole train load of trailers would be. So, if we had a tunnel big enough for them to fit, then the box cars could tag along. As time went buy, more and more of them would replace trucks to the afore mentioned Industrial Parks ?
Mr t__:^)
[One important point missed here was discussion about a piggyback yard for LI. RxRs like industrial sites that have a LOT of car movements, i.e. a few box cars here and there isn't profitable, but a whole train load of trailers would be. So, if we had a tunnel big enough for them to fit, then the box cars could tag along. As time went buy, more and more of them would replace trucks to the afore mentioned Industrial Parks ?]
There actually is a small intermodal yard located between Farmingdale and Wyandanch on the Ronkonkoma line. It doesn't seem to get much if any use. You're right, intermodal is the one type of use that might indeed be well-served by a tunnel. Whether that's enough to justify the enormous expense of a tunnel is another matter.
BTW - to change threads a bit, one thing that hasn't gotten much attention is the cross-harbor carfloat business, now operated by NY Regional Rail. At least according to their Web site, business has picked up quite a bit in recent years (for one thing, they transport much of the cocoa powder (used to make chocolate) imported into the country). They also claim to have high-and-wide clearances. So maybe a push to use more carfloats would help.
Many of the trucks are traveling within the region, so a rail tunnel wouldn't help. And everything would have to be put on a truck to reach its destination. The "trucks off the road" argument has been greatly exaggerated. A rail tunnel would take trucks off the Hudson River Crossings (leaving more room for cars or other trucks), but not off the roads. The advocates also fail to include the cost of raising all the bridges in Brooklyn/Queens to accomodate the service, something which would clearly be needed.
One way it might work is to have a truck carry service, like the chunnel. Truckers would drive on in New Jersey, before hitting metro area traffic, then move to a club car for dinner, some time off, perhaps a nap. Then they would drive off in Brooklyn, Queens, on Long Island, or in the Bronx, and head on their way. The train trip would have to be competitive, time and cost-wise (vs. tolls and traffic), with just driving and stopping for a meal.
Among the many things wrong with the rail tunnel debate is the assumption that the connection should be across the narrows to the Bay Ridge Line, because that was the proposal in 1921. What about alternatives? A three track tunnel across the Hudson to Midtown which would also carry passenger trains from NJ, extended by a one track tunnel under the East River direct to the Sunnyside Yard? A rail bridge at the Tappan Zee (much cheaper)? A connection across the Hudson to Harlem and the Harlem River direct to the Harlem River and Oak Point Yards, with another connection up onto the Hell Gate Bridge?
Just a few thoughts on the subject:
If a rail tunnel were to be built -- at an immense cost no doubt (like sending a man to the moon?) -- that in of inself wouldn't end the congestion of truck traffic in the city and surrounding highways.
My proposal would be to (1) continue (and increase) the use of current car floats/barges with perhaps some new improvements to the current speed of tugboat movements; (2) add/restore two-track freight service along the Bay Ridge LIRR line's Ave "I" stretch through Midwood and East Flatbush to accomodate heavier rail-freight deliveries between Bush Terminal and the Sunnyside Yards; make truck-container loading stations at strategic points along the BR line like Fort Hamilton Pkwy, MacDonald Ave., Flatbush Ave., Utica Ave. and/or New Lots Ave. Street truck traffic from the heavier and larger tractor-trailers would be eliminated at such stations in favor of local delivery trucks since the rail-freight takes care of the interstate-delivery problem. The same could be done for points along the LIRR heading east to Montauk or Greenport.
The possibilities for a successful inter-urban rail-freight service are there with current rights-of-way in place.
Also, no one has mentioned the South Brooklyn Railway Company (aka SBK, as it is commonly referred to). It is still around although it's duties have been greatly reduced over the years. Of the customers it has besides its parent, the MTA, are Davidson Pipe Co. on 2nd Ave. in Brooklyn, and a cocoa plant also in that same area. (Apparently, along with the Cross Harbor RR, the SBK also unloads cocoa for area distribution).
Any thoughts on the above?
Later, BMTman
Well, I don't think a drive on in NJ / drive off on LI service is going to make it. The Chunnel has a monopoly on getting freight across the channel in a reasonable time, this would not have a monopoly.
Watch the trains coming into northern NJ with gazillions of intermodal containers - a lot of that stuff is going east of Manhattan (what % of the metro area lives on LI Larry?). Conrail was just purchased for an exhorbitant sum, basically for access to that market. Metro areas far smaller than Long Island support bustling intermodal yards, so if containers could get to long island in a reasonable time, they would get to long island and spend that much LESS time on the roads. Not no time, but less time. Any direct boxcar deliveries would just be gravy. I am not a transport economist so I cannot say it is worth it or not, but it is not a fallacious argument...
Other routes: one big point Giuliani (boy do I hate siding with him) brought up when he made this proposal was bringing back shipping to the Brooklyn waterfront. They claim that the container ships of the near future (ie 10 years from now) will require deeper water than the NJ ports. Giuliani claimed that the rail tunnel could be built for about the price of blasting deep channels into the NJ port. Brooklyn naturally has deep ports. Other than that, hey, I think the idea of a freight tunnel across Manhattan is fine. Doubt that it would be any cheaper even if it were built with the passenger tunnel. The Tappan Zee is fairly far out of the way, requiring crossing the Hell Gate Bridge. And I doubt a bridge up there would be much cheaper. Has to clear ships, for one...
[Other routes: one big point Giuliani (boy do I hate siding with him) brought up when he made this proposal was bringing back shipping to the Brooklyn waterfront. They claim that the container ships of the near future (ie 10 years from now) will require deeper water than the NJ ports. Giuliani claimed that the rail tunnel could be built for about the price of blasting deep channels into the NJ port. Brooklyn naturally has deep ports.]
It's far from certain that Brooklyn could handle a big increase in container shipping. While it may have deep water, it lacks the large amount of open land needed for storing and transporting containers. Look at the vast acreage taken up by the container facilities in Newark and Elizabeth - I doubt if there's even a quarter of that amount of land available in Brooklyn. Remember that Brooklyn's port was at its peak in the pre-container era, when there wasn't as much land required. All in all, Brooklyn's present role as a smaller port aimed at niche products (such as cocoa, sugar and coffee) is probably the one that's most appropriate.
Regarding the mayor's claim anout deep channels, from what I've gathered it's not at all certain that the supersized container ships (known as post-Panamax) really will be the wave of the future. There seems to be a developing trend toward building smaller container ships, capable of carrying around 1,500 containers (vs. 6,000+ for the post-Panamax). Granted, the New Jersey ports do need dredging, as do almost all Atlantic ports except Halifax. A shipping consortium of Sea-Land and Maersk is largely responsible for pressuring the Port Authority (and its counterparts elsewhere) to deepen their channels. Yet there's some reason to believe that the consortium is merely throwing its weight around to get better rates and is certain to stay with New York/New Jersey no matter what. Sea-Land, by the way, is owned by CSX.
(Not enough room in Brooklyn, super-ships).
One option is to build a facility for the super-ships at the Military-Ocean terminal in Bayonne.
The original plan for Brooklyn's port called for tearning down Sunset Park (pop 80,000) and its industrial area (20,000 jobs) to make room. The new plan is to fill the waterfront to create new land.
It there any reason a ship cannot unload containers destined for west of the Hudson at Bayonne, then have a tugboat pull them over to Brooklyn to unload cargos going east of the Hudson? You'd need a lot less land for that on the Broooklyn side, and money saved on the tunnel could be used to raise the bridges to double-stack height.
[The original plan for Brooklyn's port called for tearning down Sunset Park (pop 80,000) and its industrial area (20,000 jobs) to make room. The new plan is to fill the waterfront to create new land.]
Given the amount of room needed for a modern container port, the new plan would require a *huge* landfill operation. Think Battery Park City, maybe even larger. I'd say a cross-Harbor tunnel would be cheaper and quicker to accomplish.
[Is there any reason a ship cannot unload containers destined for west of the Hudson at Bayonne, then have a tugboat pull them over to Brooklyn to unload cargos going east of the Hudson? You'd need a lot less land for that on the Broooklyn side, and money saved on the tunnel could be used to raise the bridges to double-stack height.]
Technically, there probably isn't any obstacle, though I don't know enough to say for sure. But there's quite clearly an economic obstacle. Shipping lines operate on rigid schedules these days and like to hustle ships in and out of port as quickly as possible. Having ships dock in both Bayonne and Brooklyn obviously would increase their total time in the port of New York/New Jersey. I don't imagine that the shipping lines would go along with this, just so there are more jobs in Brooklyn and fewer trucks driving through Manhattan. Those concerns may be laudable but it would be unreasonable to expect private (and frequently foreign) companies to care.
>>(Not enough room in Brooklyn, super-ships). One option is to build a facility for the super-ships at the Military-Ocean terminal in Bayonne.
All the planner-types I know tell me this is the most sensible option for the port. (We haven't been hearing anything about it, of course, since it's only city politicos (Giuliani, Nadler) keeping this issue in the news.) It would obviate both the Brooklyn super-port and the harbor rail tunnel (plus associated expenses like jacking up the bridges over the Bay Ridge cut), and the site is already public property. I don't kow if the Army uses it at all anymore.
>>It there any reason a ship cannot unload containers destined for west of the Hudson at Bayonne, then have a tugboat pull them over to Brooklyn to unload cargos going east of the Hudson?
No physical reason why not, but it's a lot more convenient to the shipper to unload everything at once and send the eastbound containers either by truck (hiss) or float bridge (yay!) across the harbor for local destinations. Very little overseas freight needs to go east of the Hudson anyway, and what does is generally handled in Boston.
There IS a spur line located right beyond the little golf course next to Heartland Industrial park. This used to lead (maybe still does) to Pilgrim State Hospital, for their Coal trains. I still see freight cars going into and out of this spur, what they're doing and where they're going, I can't tell. Pine trees block the view.
Wayne (used to work at Heartland I.P.)
Right now, my understanding is that they use that spur, which runs perpendicular to the mainline and passing siding, to drill out freight cars which will be dropped off on some of the Deer Park sidings. Similar arrangement exists at New Highway except that there is a virtually never used container loading facility.
[Right now, my understanding is that they use that spur, which runs perpendicular to the mainline and passing siding, to drill out freight cars which will be dropped off on some of the Deer Park sidings. Similar arrangement exists at New Highway except that there is a virtually never used container loading facility.]
This spur also seems to be used from time to time for storing those funny little hopper cars that serve the asphalt plant in Holtsville.
Another perpendicular-to-mainline spur is located just to the east of the Sagtikos Parkway. It probably connects to the Pligrim spur at its northern end, though I can't tell for sure. There often are a couple of NY&A locomotives sitting on this eastern spur, just off the mainline.
While it's good to see that there's some freight activity in the area, there also are wasted opportunities. The Pilgrim spur runs right along Heartland Industrial Park, with its 3+ million square feet of industrial space, yet none of the buildings has a freight siding. Hopefully some of the new buildings now under construction will have sidings. A little farther east, another wasted opportunity can be see. What appears to be a warehouse or industrial building is under construction to the south of the mainline, across the street from the old Pine-Aire station. It's a big facility, I guess close to 500,000 square feet, yet from its location its almost certainly not going to have rail service.
Alas, Long Island's dependence on trucking. Don't look for it to change either as long as freight has to travel up the Hudson, almost to Albany before it can cross the Hudson. Until then, trucking is more economical.
Steve -- the tried and true use of car floats IS a viable aid in alleviating tractor trailer related congestion on NYC's interstate roads. I am reasonable enough to know that it is NOT a total answer to the problem caused by the "big rigs".
One of the biggest road blocks in getting rid of the tractor-trailer traffic is in fact the notorious lobbying efforts and "strong-arm" tactics of the Teamsters Organization that literally has this nation by the throat.
Yes, the car ferry provides an option. But with the switching and loading/unloading required at each end and the transit time across the harbor, it still takes a day or so - unacceptable for intermodal and much freight in boxcars, etc. So they truck it across. The tunnel would greatly shorten this process.
The cross harbor RR would probably also benefit from faster service up the Bay Ridge Line. Someday we may hear from them and the NY & Atlantic, lobbying for improvements on that line (it is still owned by MTA, isn't it?). Of course, since Giuliani wants the tunnel built, he might not support improvement of that track without the tunnel...
Granted, unions have much to do with the demise of freight tonnage in NYC but if you read the trade journals such as Railway Age and Progressive Railroading, freight tonnage across the country has grown every year for the last 7 or 8. Much of the credit goes to the railroads embracing inter-modal cargo as it's true bread and butter. Recently, I saw a train outside of the Ft. Lauderdale airport nearly 200 cars long, all bogies with containers. In addition, the railroads have beefed up their loco fleets with 5,000 HP computer controlled units which have improved efficiency. They've also increased per axle loads through new technology and upgraded trackage. It's only a matter of time before downstate NY people realize what the short-sightedness of our elected officials and the ajendas of the special interests groups are costing us.
Does anyone have any detailed information of the Construction Reroutings
Thank you
steve
Does anyone have any routing details of the Bus
Shuttles over the bridge and on the Brooklyn Side
==connecting the 2 subway Lines in Brooklyn
Thank you
Steve
What line will this model run on?
And when will be actual start date of operation?
I saw this the other day when I was exiting a train on the IRT 1/9. I am not exactly sure of the train model. But it was a 1/9 train, not a 2 Redbird. When the doors are open on the outside of the train doors, there are two red lights on either side. Yet on one set of doors the door lights were yellow. Does anyone know the reason for this? I've seen it a couple of times. Thanks.
If memory serves (and you guys correct me if I got it wrong),
A blinking yellow light indicates that one (or more) of the motors on that car has tripped out (that is - the circuit breaker has opened).
The train crew is supposed to reset the motors. After a maximum number of motor circuit openings (5 I think) then the light goes to steady yellow.
At what station did you see the yellow lights, and what time of day? The yellow light normally indicate that the propulsion logic has shut down the propulsion circuits due to an overload. It could be a power overload or a dynamic brake overload but in either case, the Westinghouse Propulsion system shuts down the entire system. The train operator can reset it up to 5 times, after which the system locks out.
The reason I ask about where and what time of day is. many train crews are fooled when they think the yellow light is on when it is actually the sun's reflection.
BTW - The blinking yellow indicates the cover over the emergency cord is up.
>>BTW - The blinking yellow indicates the cover over the emergency cord is up<<
That's on Division A only, IRT are the only ones with the covers on the brake cord.
I saw the yellow lights, although they were a steady yellow, they were not blinking. On the outside of the train. At the 66st Station about 8:30AM
A steady yellow light means the motors in that car are dead.
Technically speaking, the yellow light means only that the overload circuit on the car has been tripped. It may or may not be resettable by the train operator depending on the number of times it has been reset previously. A car can be a dead motor without the yellow light being illuminated.
This board looks pretty active (a rare thing)
Does anyone know how I would go from the R train in Bat Ridge, to JFK via subway?
LOL told u I am a NY newbie:)
reply via email preferred LS2000@newyorknet.net
TIA
Shawn
The route looks like R to 9th Street, change for F, then North to Hoyt St, then up/dwn stairs to get the A East. Get the Rockaway vs. Lefferts train, continue to Howard Beach/JFK stn, then a bit of a walk to the bus that goes to all the terminals.
Or Lefferts train to the end, then Green Bus lines Q10 that goes to the airport.
Mr t__:^)
Err, shouldn't that be change at Jay Street from the F to A? Can't
seem to find a Hoyt street on the F line. ;)
To whom it may concern,
This is J.A. Gil-Vera, MSc student at the University of Sheffield.
I am doing a research study in reduction of weight in new trains using modern technology (Composite Materials).
I found in some papers that Monorail Cars at the Walt Disney World complex in Florida, saved 40% of weight over convectional Aluminium construction.
After finding your homepage, I felt you could help me with some more details about your findings? This is very important for my research and I would be very grateful if you provide me some information.
My e-mail address is: MEP98JAG@Sheffield.ac.uk
Thank you very much.
I am looking fordward to hearing from you soon.
Best wishes, Juan.
Hi all,
Steve has provided me with a roster listing the old and new numbers of the R46 fleet (the renumbering of the cars was not "in order"). It is available via the R46 roster page.
Thanks Steve, and enjoy!
dave
Well, the proposed car movements are out for the Williamsburg Bridge closing. Here we go again.
1)East NY will send its' R-40 Slants to Coney Island (likely for N service).
2) Coney Island will send 96 R-32 Phase II to Jamaica. E line will be increased by 4 trains
3) Jamaica will transfer 96 R-32 Phase I cars to Pitkin to increase A line service.
Wayne's gonna wear out his eraser keeping track of car assignments over the next few months....
Steve...
We always believe you! Great news about having more slanters on the and 32s on the . The latter is especially great with the advent of off-peak express service in Brooklyn! Now if I could only see one of those signed up as "HH" to relive my childhood.
To all a Happy TG...
...from TG...
and may all your transit be fair
and your weather not be foul!
You too Todd. I guess the proposed assignment makes the most sense in order to keep the equipment together.
What does anyone think of 6 car R-68's on the M from Essex to Bay Parkway (or Coney Island)? That portion of the M will be running out of CI then, and there are no clearance problems on the Nassau line.
Then, you could have even more slants on the N.
Since the conductors have to "point" to the board, it would be necessary for personell to measure car stop markers in relationship to the conductor board. I doubt if they would use the personell required to do something for a temporary several month operation. Also, the R68 would have to be pulled from somewhere and have 60 ' cars in their place. Enough ENY cars will be availiable for Essex to Bay Pkwy. service. Finally, R68's will, in 1999, be assembled into 4 car units, so 2 odd cars will not be availiable.
A conductor at the fourth car of an R-68 would be in the same position as the fifth car of a 60ft car train, as they are on the Eastern div, so the conductor's board would not be a problem.
Alot of people would rather have the 60 ft cars. People had been saying they wanted more slants on the N, and this would free up the ones coming over from the L
It depends on how many of them are assembled by the end of the year. as only a few trains will probably run on the line, you would probably only need a few 2 car pairs, and these could be the last to be assembled.
(Say, are they still talking about taking them off the D?)
Take them off the D! Please!! IMHO, the R-68s should be sentenced to local service. They always seem to crawl at a snail's pace during their express runs in the Bronx.
I don't understand your reasoning of the conductors board. On an 8 car Eastern Division train, the conductor operates: 3 south, 5 north. This means southbound the c/r is 3 cars (180') away from the m/m; northbound he is 5 cars (300') away. For example, if a Bay Pkwy bound M train on the West End stops at the 10 car marker, the c/r will have no board, yet if the train stops at the 10 car marker n/b, the c/r will be on the 10 car board. Also, a 6 car train of 75 foot cars (the longest consist of 75' cars to be allowed from Essex to Broad St.), has to stop at the 8 car marker. That equals a 450' train. Yet an 8 car train of 60 foot cars equals 480'. This will put the end of every car at a different spot when you consider 75' vs. 60'. Consequently, the distance from the 8 car marker to where the conductors operating position is will not be the same, actually, in the middle of the third car on a 75' train s/b vs. where the board is currently: 180' from the 8 car marker s/b & 300' away from the 8 car marker n/b, thereby putting the c/r off the board, hence new temporary boards will be needed for a few months with 75' cars running.
I assumed the c/r was in the 5th car both directions, in which there would have been no problem. Perhaps they could put the southbound c/r on the 5th car for that?
What they should do is move the R-68's from the concourse yard and give it to the 207 yard and get it R-32 or R-38s. Then you would see some increase in speed along the D line that would be great. Next give the R-68s and give it to the Jamaica Shop. You can use the R-32s to speed up service on the D have more space on the C during rush hour. Have safer F trains. This lines will be excellent if these things happen.
If this is done, the riders on the Brighton Line will scream bloody murder again. All they will know is they lost new trains for old ones. Don't forget the furor that erupted when the slants replaced the R68A's a year ago.
OY VEY! Here we go again! Not only have I worn out both Pink Pearls, I've used up all my White Out. If this keeps up I'm gonna have to start Master Numbers Book #8! I'd better do THAT one in pencil!
I'm gonna keep my eyes out for the Slant R40s (4398-4449) maybe they WILL wind up on the "A" after all - give the R32s to the "N"!
Wayne
Instead of books and pencils, try dBase. It works better. As for the Slants on the 'A' line, Don't hold your breath. As of 10 AM on Weds, the slants were Coney Island Bound.
What are the odds that the R-32s will return to the Concourse Yard. They left with the C line and nither the D or B has ever had an R-32.
Well not lately, anyway - the "B" and "D" used to run almost nothing but R32s way back when.
Wayne
I vivdly remember when the R-32s first appeared on the B and D lines. It was right after the Chrystie St. connection opened in November 1967. (The AA also received R-32s at that time.) Has it really been 31 years? It sure doesn't seem like it.
Back then, the 6th Ave. express tracks were used only during rush hours. B trains terminated at W. 4th St. during non-rush hours, using the express tracks, until July 1, 1968, when the 57th St. station opened. We were at Macy's doing Christmas shopping on a Saturday in December of '67 and headed for the IND to return to Port Authority. We were on the uptown platform when a gleaming D train of R-32s pulled in on the local track. As was customary back then, it switched over to the inner track after leaving 34th St. We were short on time, so I had to get off at 59th St. and change to a downtown A.
BTW, the R-32s originally did not have B signs on any of their roller curtains. There was a B sign pasted over every BB sign in every car of every B train. I loved the way those cars glided effortlessly up CPW, whereas the R-10s thundered along while the R-1/9s howled and whined.
I'd love to see the R-32s back on the D.
Right now, Operations Planning is committed to keeping 75' cars (R-68 and R-68A on the Concourse line.
So I hear! Oh well, win some, lose some. Anyway I've been keeping paper records of all my numbers since 1969. Part of the fun of it is watching all these movements and making the necessary corrections. I have Lotus Approach (this is where I keep my photograph records and my CD index) - maybe I could try it for line assignments; as for master numbers lists, they'll probably stay on paper.
Wayne
Steve..
dbase? as in... Ashton-Tate Dbase???
We can also publish them in WordStar!
=)
(My dad still uses dbase to keep track of his model trains)
I prefer Access, because I can build my Java servlets to interface with them so when I finish networking the house, I can have one of those web access libraries in every room.
It would be nice to have slants on the A once again, but the reassignment does make sense. Because every model is different, different parts & sizes are required for repair: glass, frames, sign boxes, sign curtains & the like. CI maintains R40's already, so they have the parts; Pitkin has R32's already, so they have material to maintain additional cars. Since CI is giving up 96 R32's, there won't be many left for N service, if any. Am I missing something: the E will need 4 more trainsets, yet they are simply swapping 96 Phase I's with Pitkin for 96 Phase II's from CI. Where will Jamaica get the additional trainsets from?
I asked the same question Bill!!! Actually, I will be putting out 4 more trains with 22 less cars because of the 30 I've already giving to Coney Island and the 8 I got back from Pitkin.
If anyone can answer these I'd appreciate it.
When sitting in a LIRR car, I always hear over the speaker attn. breakman or I need markers. Now I always thought it to be a motorman and two conductors taking tickets, I guess I am wrong. How many crew members work a LIRR train? Also is there a specific car the conductor checks the doors at stations?
I was once told on the outside of a LIRR electirc train the small Green light means break release, yellow break lock? Is that correct?
Finally the Blue light on the outside means Emergency cord? The yellow light below that I have no idea?
If anyone knows I thank you. I know, a lot of questions.
The quick, non-technical answer is: There's a supervisor of the other Conductors, Brakeman. Who also has a "key" & can, with permission, run the train (I've seen them do that when they had to back up for some reason, i.e. the Enginerr stayed up front while this was going on). They also "split" the doors so two Conductors do the closing, i.e. the Brakemen and one other. The "Tower" tells the Engineer that he a green light to go, the Brakeman tells the Engineer that all the folks are aboard & he/she can proceed. Sometimes the train is closed up & ready to go before the Engineer has a green, that's when you'll hear "you have two to go" from the Brakemen. On the subway you'll sometimes here two buzzar sounds up front, that's the same action going on because the train was held for some reason & the Engineer needs to the OK, even though he may be looking at a green signal.
Mr t__:^)
Hi all,
A NY Times reporter contacted me looking for some photos of the 91st St. west side IRT station. If anyone has any better ones than the ones already on the web site let me know and I'll put you in touch with him. They will pay for published photographs.
-Dave
Someone had a bunch of early west side (IRT Broadway)construction pix at ebay a couple of weeks ago.
On a related item, I had inquired about this previously, but there were no respnses,\;
Are there any remains of the 3rd Ave El stations (at ground level) of the 143rd, 138th or 133rd st stations that were on PROW?
They had some massive concrete entryways at street level.
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I know it's too late, but anyway, what about this?
Posted by Eric B on Sat Nov 21 23:10:52 1998
As a rider from Ridgewood, I can understand Greenpoint's lack of connection, and how it will get worse when the G is cut back to Court Sq all the time. I've used that passage trying to get from Ridgewood to the rest of Queens (the buses are slow), and I would have a real fit if I was left to use that to get to Queens Blvd. all the time.
So I thought that they could have built a loop from D2 to D1 north of Queens Plaza when they dug the new connecting tracks. Not only would this allow the G to terminate at the station and turn around, but you could bave also had the direct service to Manhattan people have been wishing for (albeit, with two stops at QP). (I think it would be awkward to have a northbound line connect into a southbound line like that, but I see everyone wants it, and I can understand being so close and having no direct connection to Manhattan.)
Also, get this! When the connection is open, that the G would have to terminate at Court Square all the time is nonsense. On weekends it terminated at Queens plaza by switching over to the middle layup track D5. It cant do that now because D5 has TEMPORARILY been made into a through lead to D4 while the area is realigned, but according to Peter's track book, the final layout will be again have D5 as a layout track, and all the switches leading to it will be the same! So if the G could terminate there all those years before, there's no reason it couldn't then! The new connection will be beyond this point, so there would be no interference.
What does everyone think of these points?
.
Just looking at the way they're working, I don't think there will be room for a layup track north of Queens Plaza.
I could be wrong, though.
Michael
Peter's book has the final layout, and D5 will be as it was in the middle, with room to hold a 600 ft train.
From what I understand, air brakes on trains are applied by releasing air pressure and release by increasing air pressure. I hear air releasing from the brakes when the train beginings to move. Where is that air comming from?
Do city buses use the same method?
In order to relaease a standard air brake, air must be released from the brake cylinder. On NYCT equipment, this is done by reducing the straight air (controlling air). In order for the straight air to be able to control the braking, the Brake Pipe has to be fully charged. If the brake pipe pressure goes below its' threshhold value (90 PSI on most NYCT equipment) the straight air is not able to control the system.
Hey, I haven't posted in a while, maybe even a month.
Anyway, I had a question for all of you from NYC:
If you didn't know I'm from Chicago and have been to NYC before and ridden the Metro-North Rail-road and the subway.
I was recently looking at a Lirr Timetable to possibly plan a trip to NYC in the future and had a question:
How come almost every train has to stop at Jamaica and have passengers transfer from one train to another to continue their trip farther into Long Island? Is it because they have to switch between a diesel train and electric train? This would make sense if the system wasn't completly electrified but diesels weren't allowed in Penn Station.
And another question, will the whole system ever be electrified if this is the case so passegers don't have to ride two trains just to get home? And four trains all in one days commute to and from work.
A five minute delay can mean allot of time during the week-rush hours when you are on the very last minute possible to get to work and have to be home for the kids. On, metra five minutes of stopping and starting can mean allot of lost time when you are traveling at 70+ MPH
Thanks again;
BJ
First, take the Port Washington branch out of the picture - all the trains on it originate at Penn Station and they don't go to Jamaica - they branch off at Woodside.
Then you have two main trunk lines leading from the City to Jamaica - the Penn Station branch and the Flatbush Avenue branch. Trains from Penn Station go mostly to Babylon, Huntington, Ronkonkoma. Trains from Flatbush Avenue (Brooklyn) go mostly to Hempstead, Far Rockaway, Long Beach and West Hempstead. There are exceptions to the above (i.e. Babylon trains originating at Flatbush Avenue and Hempstead trains originating at Penn Station). Not everybody has to change - i.e. I live in Babylon. I get on the Babylon train at Penn Station and it's a straight run most of the time. It's a timing thing - they send one train from Penn and another from Flatbush Avenue almost at the same time, so they meet up in Jamaica. Passengers can then change between the two - most of the time (but not all of the time) it's just a hop across the platform to change.
The Oyster Bay (above East Williston), Port Jefferson, Montauk and Greenport branches are not electrified yet. There has been talk about electrifying Pt.Jeff and Oyster Bay but nothing's come of it.
Diesel trains originate at Jamaica, Long Island City or Hunters Point Avenue. Anybody who needs to go from Penn or Brooklyn to any of the diesel branches must change at Jamaica or Huntington or Babylon.
The dual-mode locomotives and new cars coming in the near future may change this.
Wayne
It's not the case that all LIRR trains that stop at Jamaica require a transfer at Jamaica.
Other than the Port Washington line (which only goes to Penn Station), all LIRR lines go through Jamaica. From Jamaica, the branches fan out to three western terminals (Penn Station, Flatbush Ave. in Brooklyn, and Hunterspoint Ave./Long Island City in Queens). East of Jamaica, the LIRR fans out into each of the "branches" that you'll see timetables for.
During rush hours the electrified lines (all except Oyster Bay, beyond Huntington on the Port Jeff, beyond Babylon on the Montauk and a train or two from Riverhead/Greenport) have direct service to both Flatbush Ave. and Penn Station (Hunterspoint/LIC is used for diesels only, and has a much smaller capacity than the other two western terminals). By stopping at Jamaica, passengers on a Brooklyn bound train can change for Penn Station. The Jamaica stop/transfer increases travel flexibility during the rush hour -- rather than a train to Penn every 20 minutes and a Brooklyn train every 20 minutes, passengers have a train to both terminals every 10 minutes.
During off-peak hours, certain lines generally go to Penn (Babylon, Huntington and Ronkonkoma), while others go to Brooklyn (Far Rockaway, Hempstead, West Hempstead). Long Beach generally goes to Brooklyn during weekdays off-peak and to Penn on weekends. Arrivals of the trains from the various lines at Jamaica are timed so that there are direct connections. For example, a Long Beach to Brooklyn train will be scheduled to meet a Huntington to Penn train at Jamaica
Most scheduled connections are cross-platform to make them less difficult. With 8 tracks and 5 platforms at Jamaica, it's a heck of an operation to manage. You should watch it if you get a chance.
I took the LIRR yesterday on turky day
And i saw the double decker cars on a side track north of jamaica station. They look pretty cool! But why werent they in service. The trains were packed, i would think thed come in useful
BJ, in answer to your question regarding why electric service is not provided on the entire LIRR line: I believe the answer may have alot to do with the geography of Long Island -- much of the terrain is flat and not much above sea level. Much of the more rural-like eastern end of Long Island (Suffolk County) is quite vunerable to any strong hurricane/gale-force storms which would render electric rail service inoperable if flooding were to occur.
BTW, it might interest you to know that the LIRR is shortly going to unvail their diesel/electric locomotives (which will be run in conjunction with the new double-deck cars) for use on the Port Jefferson/Babylon and I'd assume the Montauk lines. These new diesels would make transfers at Jamacia and/or Babylon obsolete for those who ONLY needed to go from an electric to a diesel train. This should hasten the LIRR's rush-hour service, alleviating any "bottle-necking" at Jamaica station.
I saw a Double-decker signed up for Montauk at the Babylon train station Thursday night at about 9:45pm - first time I've seen them here. It was a train I'd already seen: 4008-4031-4010 w/cab unit 5009 and engine 421 I think.
Wayne
Have a Happy THanksgiving'
Steve
Thanks; and a happy Thanksgiving to ALL (I bet we're going to see some sardine-can C's, D's,
F's, N's and R's as well as others as the parade winds down...they said a million plus, even in the rain - all these wet people jamming aboard - Ewwww!)
We're having turkey (10 lbs) w/sausage stuffing, canned yams, baked potatoes, mashed yellow turnips, lil brussels sprouts (YECCH!) w/Velveeta cheese sauce (Double YECCH!), dinner rolls, and pumpkin pie w/Cool Whip (no cranberry sauce; nobody seems to like it here).
Again, a happy holiday to all!
Wayne
Happy Thanksgiving to all you NYC Subway buffs! Eat hardy and keep watching our subways!
Chuck Greene
By the time you read this Thanksgiving will be winding down. Anyway I hope all you subway buffs in NYC and Philly and all over this great country of ours had a great day. Might also be a good time to just say THANK YOU to everybody who contributes such good info on this site. Again happy Thanksgiving everybody.
here! here!
I'll second that (belatedly). BTW, if anyone was watching the parade, there was a high school band from Colorado - Arapahoe High, which just happens to be literally down the street from where I live. I subbed there during my days as a teacher back in the early and mid 80s.
The company I work for gives out free Thanksgiving turkeys for its employees. Such a deal.
(Company gives out free Turkeys). My union gives out free turkeys in certain locals. It turns out the guy was paying $55 a bird, and getting a kickback. I haven't gotten much out of the union for the dues over the years. With the various scandals on page one, at least now I am getting entertained.
Did anyone see the front page article in the Western Queens Gazette this week? It's about a group of incensed Ditmars area residents who do not want the N train extended through their neighborhood towards LaG. They are even willing to sue the city. I can't believe this - how can these people stand in the way of progress? This is a badly-needed connection that will enhance not only mass transit as a whole, but the N line especially. Can you imagine all the increased service and upkeep on the N train just because many out-of-town travelers will see the N train first???
My favorite route is the one that can't work - building a extention of the N line over the Grand Central Pkwy. However, the engineers said that this won't work b/c the center median is too narrow to support an elevated structure. So why don't they widen it???
The 3 other plans are:
1) Entending the N train to 19 Avenue and building an el up that avenue.
2) Tunneling under 31 Street.
3) Extending northward from the end of the Flushing Line.
Personally, I like the last choice because it uses the most infrastructure already in place out of the other 3 choices.
The other 2 are being denounced because of condemnation of private houses, disruption to area residents, and decreased property values.
They said it would be a year before any final decisions are made.
I'm hoping they don't listen to the residents and decide to go ahead with it. The residents think for themselves and not for the greater good of others. Back in the early part of the century when Robert Moses was building all the new highways and in some cases tearing apart neighborhoods, a lot of people didn't like it, but where would we be now if we didn't have the Grand Central Pkwy., the Cross Bronx Expwy., etc.? We need a Robert Moses of transit.
Hi Josh
Personally, I am against tunneling under 31st street and then continuing the tunnel to LaGuardia. Astoria would be without any BMT subway service for a few years. You can see me rant and rave more about that option by reading a recent post of mine, Re: Want Good Service to Astoria?. As for the flushing line option, I think that is the worst option of the group. It would take way too long to get to the airport, a direct route is needed.I personally think the train should turn at ditmars, and go to Rikers Island, then the Marine air terminal, then the rest of the airport. According to the articles, the NIMBYs are against this, they proposed an underground route down 21st street, although it didnt say where this route would turn to get to the airport. If they think that extending the EL would disturb their neighborhood, can you imagine what tearing up 21st Street would do? But hey, whatever needs to be done, NY needs a one seat ride to both of its airports asap.
Josh
There is a lengthy article in a local newspaper about a meeting concerning a possible extention to LGA. Issue of 11-25-98, page 8. They have a website: ridgewood times.com or timesnewsweekly.com. I don't know if they reprint articles from the newspaper on the web site (then less papers sold), but those very interested may be able to order a copy directly from them. One thing the NIMBY's pointed out is this: how are you going to haul all your luggage in & out of the subway? Maybe good access at the airport, but what about at your starting/finishing point? With most air travelers frequent flyers, even with a subway, most would probably take a taxi, livery cab, or bus where you can have curbside checking.
For the price of the saved cab fare, I think many people would gladly carry their bags up the stairs at their final destination. I have a question. Anyone know how much of the population of Astoria is made up of cabbies? I know if I was a cabbie and this proposal was made for a rail link in my back yard, I would pretend to go NIMBY to save my cabby job. Just a thought.
Astoria, being a truly ethnic neighborhood, filled with recent immigrants has a large cab driver population. The streets at night are strewn with Yellow cabs and the gypsy cabs are ubiquitous. Naturally, they'd be against better rail service in Astoria and, in particular, convenient aiport access.
A sidebar: I heard this true story of a Greek cabbie who was driving for 6 months before he learned that LaGuardia and JFK were different airports.
I know that lots and lots of people in Astoria would love an N to LaGuardia connection. But it is the complainers that are in the press, filing lawsuits, showing up at meetings. No one else goes.
If you want to see how well a subway and an airport can co-exist, simply go to Washington, DC and watch the action at the National Airport station of the Yellow and Blue lines. Not only do Metro employees assist travelers with their bags, the entire station complex was designed specifically to meet the needs of airline passengers AND their luggage. Maybe they can do the same at LGA, if they do decide to extend the Astoria line there.
Wayne
I am not anti-airport extension at all. I have no doubt that it would be easy for you-and-your bags at the airport station, but I don't see somebody going on vacation for a week or so going thru the subway up & down stairs, thru connective passageways with all those bags. Suppose you are traveling with the kids? You have additional bags & have to scrutinise the children. Airport passengers would be prone to robberies by unsavory characters as the bad guys would know they are probably carrying potential large sums of money on their person. And my reasoning is the same for JFK, but if a line is built, I want the Rockaway Branch reactivated. The article I refered to in my previous post mentioned that the GCP & Ditmars Blvd. routing options are deemed unacceptable by the planners and are discarded. The most logical plan is to have the N line continue on 31 St. to 19 Ave. (near Con Ed) and go east to the airport. If you put the line underground past Ditmars, the structure has to be extended & property condemned to lead it underground. If you leave it elevated, sure you can put up a modern, quiet all concrete structure, but the NIMBYS will complain that their sunlight is being taken away. If you have heavy snow, the line would get knocked out like the Brighton & Sea Beach for example because the snow would pile up on the roadbed & third rail: it can't fall thru the structure to the street. The NIMBYS will complain that the line would have no benefit for the community: they would have no use for it & will have to wait for a train at Ditmars Blvd. rather then usually have one standing in the station. Heck, they would lose money since the N line workers would no longer be able to patronise food, candy stores and such in the neighborhood. BTW: I am not a resident of Astoria. Sure, as a MOTORMAN, I would like to see service expanded as it also creates jobs for construction & the TA, yet I also feel the taxi & limo lobby is too strong in this town; that the financial commitment will not be there when the price tag comes up. Building the Second Ave. subway will have more benefits for New Yorkers & visitors.
Hello TRAIN OPERATOR. Is there usually a train waiting in the station at Ditmars Blvd.I always thought they went in and out at Ditmars
The timetable for the N line is written so that there is always a train in the station awaiting departure. Since the N is a very low performing line (and would get worse if the line is ever extended to LGA), sometimes a train has to go "in & out" if it arrives at the scheduled time of departure for its next trip. BTW: It's MOTORMAN to you!
To heck with a concrete elevated! Look what happens in DC everytime it snows - paralysis. I assume there is enough iron ore left on earth to turn it into enough steel to build a dignified box-girder structure, at least where it is over the city's streets. The box-girder elevateds that are still in use have been so for eighty years (at least) and over a hundred (albeit with some repairs) in at least one (the "J" line-Alabama to Crescent) case...
Wayne
Yes, but the traditional elevated structures are extremely noisy as trains pass overhead. That is why residents where new elevated railroads may be constructed would want a concrete elevated. Don't forget, most traditional elevated structures were built before houses were next to them. The subways in New York, both underground & elevated, started housing booms after the railroad was constructed.
1) People with children or lots of bags.
Nobody said that the subway would be for everyone. The main ridership will be airport workers, airline workers (lord, how many pilots and flight attendants I see on the Blue line!), and businesspeople with only their carry-on luggage. I would say that a good rule of thumb is if you have too much luggage to carry on (you have to check luggage) you have too much for the subway, but if you carried all your luggage on the plane, you can carry it on the subway, too. I travel on business, and have found it very handy to use the airport trains not only at the home end of the trip (Chicago-O'Hare and Midway) but in Washington, Baltimore, and Boston.
2) "Airport passengers would be prone to robberies by unsavory characters as the bad guys would know they are probably carrying potential large sums of money on their person."
Maybe it's because Chicago doesn't have as much of a problem in general with tourist-targeted crime as NYC does, but I've never heard of such a thing happening here, where there has been airport subway service since 1984. This is akin to the point another person raised about beggars at the airport if the subway runs there: that's not a problem that has arisen at O'Hare or Midway, unless you count the occasional street musician (legitimate musicians, not just skells banging a pickle drum and begging) in the tunnels connecting the garage and subway station to the terminals.
3) "If you have heavy snow, the line would get knocked out like the Brighton & Sea Beach for example because the snow would pile up on the roadbed & third rail: it can't fall thru the structure to the street."
This is sheerly preposterous! We have very heavy snowfall in Chicago, and the principal L line of the system runs on a concrete structure for several miles. CTA has to keep the structure well-plowed, but snow delays on the Red and Purple lines are not terribly common. There's more of a problem with road salt affecting the lines that run in expressway medians (electric shorts galore! Sparks fly! Sometimes, train cars catch fire!).
Your comments to my point 3 is what does go on here. Since we don't get all that much snow, we can't fight it as well as Chicago. And we have 3rd rail protection boards too. Last time I was in Chicago, they didn't & can run a railroad in the snow unlike us.
Any snow bad enough to shut down a railroad on a concrete viaduct will also shut down the airport. In that case, a rail service suspension to LGA would not have a significant detrimental effect -- as long as the service remained open longer than the airport, so those who wished to return home rather than wait out the store at LGA could do so.
nonsense, yours truly Started trip on BART-toAir-BART SWAir to BWI shuttle to SAmtrack/BWI to Union Sta. Red Line to Dupont Circle just fine. Return much same with side trips DC=NY Penn NYCT (yeah)etc. If you pack sanely...you don;t need a limo for your bags.
A "train to the plane," like the line that used to have the name, will never work in NYC unless...
YOU HAVE DIRECT ACCESS TO AIRPORT TERMINALS.
In other words, the stop is actually inside the airport.
Philadelphia's train to the airport (R1 regional rail) has four stops (there are five terminals, C/D is a combined stop). Atlanta's subway system goes right into the airport. The recent light rail extension in Baltimore ends at the door of BWI Airport.
Get the picture? It has to happen that way in New York. In other words, the subway terminates at JFK or LaGuardia.
In New Jersey, the monorail station at Elizabeth will allow people one transfer from the train right to the monorail. Will this work? We'll see. But I think a direct train station to Newark would have been better.
Michael
A single stop at LaGuardia would be more likely to work than at JFK, since the terminal is more centrally located. LaGuardia also caters to more single day travelers on the air shuttles to D.C. and Boston who would be more likely to use the train, since they travel light.
As for the route, the Flushing Line option would be the least likely to attract NIMBYs, if you built it along the Grand Central Parkway, since it runs right next to the water and fish traditionally have low voter turnout.
The best time to do it would be when they finally tear down Shea and put up the new stadium in the right-centerfield parking lot. Run a spur line off the Willets Point station (you might have to bi-level it) and through the area where Shea is now towards the airport. The only problem is air travelers would be going in the opposite direction of the rush hour express -- away from Manhattan in the morning and towards it at night.
Subway service to LGA makes sense for the domestic business passenger. Tourists and other visitors tend to have more luggage and thus are more likely to prefer taxis or buses. This two-seat JFK link will also be tolerable for the business traveler. But I can't see too many tourists hopping onto a LRV and then changing to the real subway after a nine hour flight from Europe. By the way, how is this LGA link going to be paid for?
Why would our subway service be interupted if they were tunneling under 31 Street? I think that the el can be shored up while work is being completed below. Look at all the work on the 63 Street connection and the Astoria el is standing there.
I mean, as Peter Vallone said in the Gazette article, how can we erect 19th century els as we enter the 21st century? We need to move ahead with progress in Astoria, not behind because of some people who cannot tolerate construction for a few years. Heck, they dig up the street around my house at least once or twice a year!
And as it also said in the Gazette article, think of the effect that the tearing down of the el over Jamaica Avenue had to that street 10 years ago - business boomed afterwards. I see 31 Street as an up-and-coming street with the advent of the new reataurants and bars like Zodiac and Byzantino, and the new stores. Just think of what can happen when the el is torn down - make it into a Business Improvement District (BID), plant some trees, attract new stores and there you have another Steinway Street.
So Vallone will insist that the 31st St line be replaced with a subway in exchange for allowing the connection, eh. You can't be against that, can you. In fact, why not make it a supersubway, with its own tunnel to Manhattan, and a separate run down Madison Avenue to Lower Manhattan just for airport passengers. Its not NIMBY, its just that people aren't willing to be progressive. Then we'll find out that will cost $20 billion and do nothing.
It gets worse. If they try to move ahead, the environmental impact statement will have to disclose the number of people who will die from the added noise pollution, and the number of children, the effect on waterfront, the effect on releasing toxic chemicals by digging the piers, etc. Then the neighbors will sue, claiming that the environmental impact statement was inadequate, and hold it up for years.
But it won't get that far. Vallone will never allow any investment to come up for a vote, unless he gets paid.
Look at Jamaica. The existing businesses improved. But 31st street does not have that much existing business, as compared to say Steinway Street. 31st street has many residences. Also, Jamaica had the El torn down before the subway was extended, and therefore was lacking service for a while. Also, why spend money and build a new service to Astoria, just to tear the old one down. Tunnel under 21st street with a tunneling method where the tunneling is all underground, and the street doesnt need to be closed. (Sorry, I am not up on tunneling techniques, dont know which one this is) Also, Steinway street does not have real subway service. It has the IND stop at Broadway, but the service does not go up and down Steinway, and the traffic on Steinway is so bad that the bus is pretty bad too.
Josh
The most convenient (and most expensive) way to tunnel under a neighborhood is with a TBM: Tunnel Boring Machine. They're using it right now to build the third water tunnel from the Catskills. It's also what they used to build the Chunnel connecting England to France. If the reports on T.V. are correct, the most modest of them costs $10 million. On the plus side, it digs at a rate of 50 yards over 24 hours. A tunnel could be dug under the existing structures (think of the building of the 6 Ave. line in Mid-town) and continue on to LGA. The only time service will be lost is when the tunnel is connected to Queensboro Plaza. I think NYers are resiliant enough to put-up with this type of disruption for a couple of months in order to get better service in the end.
Subway service to LGA makes sense. Extension of the Astoria line makes more sense if the Port Authority restricted all shuttle flights--those hourly flights to Boston, Washington, or Chicago--to LGA. These are people taking a flight first thing in the morning and returning home in the evening. The whole cab-limo thing has to be a pain in the rear for these business travelers. They would use the subway while vacationers or people going for more than a night or two would continue to take a taxi or limo.
To Larry: I understand your cynicism about the democratic process for building new lines, but I'm more concerned with getting the taxpayers and politicians to earmark money for these projects. Heck, we can't get them to fix Willie B., the Manh. B., or the Culver line, nor can we get them to fund the building of the 2 Ave. line (now 30 years overdue) let alone do this. It seems to me that clearing the law suits is actually easier than getting the money.
By the way, although I like the portion of the planned monorail at JFK which circles all the terminals and terminates at the A train; who is going to take the monorail from LIRR Jamaica or Parsons/Archer to the airport? This second-half of the approved proposal makes no sense.
--EJM
[who is going to take the monorail from LIRR Jamaica or Parsons/Archer to the airport? ]
Long Islanders would take the monorail from the LIRR Jamaica and people taking the J would use the monorail from Parsons/Archer
Re: Who would use Jamaica to JFK rail link ?
If I pretend to be John Q. Public ... from my home I would have three options:
1. 1/2 car trip, via a friend & drop off
2. LI Bus "JFK Flyer" 3/4 hour, only a few bus stops, then express.
3. LIRR/JFK light rail ... probally about 1 hour
Well, guess one I would take ???
From further out on LI or Queens (subways) via Jamaica connection or Manhattan via LIRR to Jamaica ....m-a-y-b-e it makes more since ?
Mr t__:^)
Josh-
1) While 31 Street may not have much existing business as compared to Steinway, there are a lot of up-and-coming businesses including many new restaurants. And yes, there are a lot of residences so what's the problem with increasing property values here? I don't think many people enjoy having the subway rumbling outside their windows 24/7/365.
2) That el is rather old, and someday it will have to undergo a major rehabilitation. While we've got a surplus now, why not undertake a modernization project - get rid of the els and build modern, UNDERGROUND subway stations.
As for point 2, the surplus the TA has is a drop in the bucket as to the total cost of putting any elevated structure underground.
True, but how long are the elevated structures going to remain standing? The next 100 years? I don't think so. Let's not waste money rebuilding them like the Franklin Shuttle. Let's spend the money on changing elevateds to real subways.
The TA should have these priorities:
Priority 1 - SECOND AVE. SUBWAY
Priority 2 - Getting rid of the elevateds.
Re: [It has the IND stop at Broadway, but the service does not go up
and down Steinway, and the traffic on Steinway is so bad that the bus is pretty bad too.]
The Q101 (on Steinway) is a very busy line, incl. special trips to Riker's Island, about twice as busy as the bus service on 31st (Q102).
The traffic on Steinway does make keeping to schedule a chore.
Mr t__:-(
When I was leaving New York for Pennsylvania I took the C to Port Authority. When the train stopped at 50st I looked across the track and on the uptown platform was packed with Thanksgiving day parade balloon operators! They where all standing there waiting for a train. I would think that balloon operators would take some other form of travel besides a train. Does anybody have any information on this?
This seems like a *great* idea! EACH balloon has from 40 to 60 operators, just for holding the cables. Plus crew members assembling and filling. The Staging area would already be crowded with support trucks for each device, in addition to police, EMS and other support vehicles. By the operators taking the train, the staging area just was saved 60 people (per balloon) looking for a place to park.
The train sounds like the best way to get peope to the beginning of the route to me. I watched the parade on TV and they all did a fine job at that.
Why not take the subway? It makes perfect sense. That's what it was built for.
When the Willamsburg Bridge closes the J,M,Z will have no where to go. That is a big problem what are they planning to do? What they should do is make the Z line a full time line from Jamaica Center to Marcy Avenue. The M train will go from Metropolitan Avenue to Marcy Avenue. The J train will be a Super Express. It will go from Jamaica Center to Bay Parkway. The J will be express along Queens Blvd and then travel along the Broadway line being express the at Dekalb Avenue and travel along the B to Bay Parkway or travel along the N to Coney Island. This plan will be efficent with the travel to Manhattan for the J and Z riders. At Marcy Avenue there will be a shuttle bus across to Manhattan. What would be a better plan?
Christopher Rivera
This plan might be an alternative to riders who boared the trains in Jamaica, Queens. What about the riders who board the trains at stations further down the line. I don't think this idea will be favored by them including me. The other plan of providing extra bus service on the B39 or special shuttle may not do any good either. I don't know the traffic conditions on the the WillyB's roadway, but I can imagine that it's not a good one. What will help with this problem is a special "Buses Only" lane be set up like the one on the Long Island Expwy and in the Lincoln Tunnel for riders who use express buses. I think this idea is a good one which will cut down the number of riders who will use the the already packed "A" line as an alternative.
-GarfieldA
A couple of days ago I was heading to school and I boarded a four train at Bedford Park and the Next Stop was Burnside Avenue. I went to Burnside and the Next stop was going to be 149 Street. Are they begining to make a rush hour service? It is an excellent idea if a does happen. Next has anybody seen the Tracy Tower Yard that is under the Tracy Towers? That yard has no pictures or no plan. Is there anyway to get pictures. This line has so many secrets this line has been the most unexplored. Also how will I be able to enter a yard to get pictures?
Christopher Rivera
Are you sure they weren't doing any track work on the Woodlawn line? What sort of announcement did the conductor make, if any? That'a about the only reason a train would be rerouted onto an express track which is not normally used, other than an emergency.
The train could have left Woodlawn late.To get it back on schedule as close as possible it probably went on a "battery run"
Press Release
For Immediate Distribution
in Canada and the U.S.
I could not get this picture to come up in my browser. Try your luck at http://www.novabuses.com/newIndex-e.htm. Her'es the text:
SCHENECTADY, New York, October 30, 1998 - Nova BUS Incorporated announced the completion of the pre-production prototype of its diesel fueled, hybrid electric transit bus. This vehicle represents the fifth hybrid configuration designed and built by Nova BUS, incorporating all of the technology development to date. Built upon the proven RTS bus platform, this bus represents the baseline configuration for sale to transit properties across the country - most notably New York City Transit, which has been a strong advocate of hybrid technology and has worked closely with Nova BUS in the development of specifications and requirements for the vehicle.
The hybrid bus uses an electric motor to propel the vehicle. This motor, in turn, derives its power, in the form of electricity, from a traction battery set and an internal combustion engine turning a generator. In this way the engine can be controlled to achieve emissions comparable to other alternative fueled vehicles and improve fuel economy while avoiding costly infrastructure modifications. David Reddy, Nova BUS Hybrid Program Manager, said : "This bus represents an important milestone in satisfying the need to reduce emissions while at the same time, it does not place an undue burden on the transit authorities'infrastructure or operations."
This pre-production prototype is the culmination of over three years of development effort funded by Nova BUS, the Demonstration of Universal Electric Transportation Subsystems (DUETS) Consortium, and the Federal Transit Administration through the DUETS program. The latest phase of this program involved the installation of Lockheed Martin Control System-HybriDrive TM propulsion system.
To launch the introduction of this technology, Nova BUS is pursuing an opportunity to produce a pilot production fleet of hybrid buses for New York City Transit for revenue service and further refinement. This has been made possible in part due to the efforts of Assemblyman Tonko, a long time supporter of Nova BUS and hybrid technology, through the appropriation of New York State funds specifically for the introduction of hybrid buses, the New York Power Authority, Governor Pataki and the New York MTA.
For New York City Transit, and the northeast corridor, the final assembly of these hybrid buses will be performed at Nova BUS' facilities in Schenectady, NY, where the hybrid propulsion system, developed by Lockheed Martin Control Systems of Johnson City, NY, will be installed.
The hybrid bus represents a significant step forward in the development of environmentally conscious transportation solutions which satisfy not only the need to reduce emissions but also improve performance and reliability. The hybrid bus is also an important step towards other technologies, such as fuel cells, which offer the potential of viable, zero emission buses for the future.
Nova BUS looks forward to working with the State of New York, the New York City Transit and lockheed Martin to bring this technology to the transit industry and improve the quality of life in our urban communities across the country.
-30-
Information :
Jean-François LeBrun
LeBrun Messier & Associates
(514) 499-1616
lma@lebrunmessier.com
Eric B/Jean-Francois,
Didn't they put one of these "Hybrids" in a Orion II, Low Floor & run it around the streets of NYC a couple of years ago ?
Mr t__:^)
There was a hybrid Orion, pictured on the new "Bus Talk" cards a couple of years ago, and now there is a different hybrid Orion in Manhattanville, but I had never heard of a hybrid RTS. This is entirely new.
I kind of wonder if this could be the 9900 someone said they saw in another thread. They did say it had a gas tank on top, and hybrid gas/electrics are planned too, but the article did say it was diesel.
There is a blue light on top of LIRR electric cars, I believe it is for the emergency cord in that car. Yet right below that light, there is a yellow light that is only on when the train doors are open, does anyone know what it is for?
Also in some cars there is a big unit that looks like a vent of some kind. It takes up 2 seats and 1 seat is left to sit in. What is that big thing?
Thanks..................
The yellow light on the outside of the M-1s and M-3s is also replicated above the cab on the M-3s. It indicates that a friction brake is applied. The big unit that looks like a vent is exactly that. It's only on the M-3s.
Is that the yellow light next to the blue one on top of the car. Because there are also small yellow and green lights on the side. What is the pourpose of having the vents like that in the M-3's?
I believe the vents are for traction motor cooling. The M-1s either have the intakes below, or non forced air cooled motors (like the MP-54!). The M-#s are supposed to have blower foreced air cooled motors. If you suck the air down low, you have a very effective vacuum cleaner that deposits fine dust into the heart of the motor. Not good.
NJT MUs have roof mounted intakes, and blowers under. That's the spooling up noise you hear when the train pulls out of penn.
Lacawana MUs had roof mounted air intakes, and possibly blowers under, though I've never seen one, and I don't hear any blowers on the recording I have (mp3!) of one.
The New haven stuff has blowers, as do most diesels.
Thanks for the info on the Vent in the M-3's. Yet does you or anyone know what the yellow light on top of the M-1/3's are? The yellow light next to the Blue light, which I think is for the emergency cord?
The blue light indicates that the ATC equipment is functional ("equipped")
The yellow (as opposed to amber) light indicates which door station has been activated to open the doors.
Are there any Double Decker LIRR trains that stop at Hicksville, going either towards New York or from New York as of yet?
Train 2761 stops Hicksville 7:47 AM Mon-Fri. Afterward it continues to Jamiaca (8:15), and Long Island City (8:40) via the Montauk Branch.
Are there a lot of seats by the time it gets to Hicksville at 7:47AM?
No, but I was on it to OYSTER BAY!!!!
Nah Nah!!!! :)
Should have some empty seats. Remember, it's a Patchogue start out (6:53 AM) and stops at Oakdale and Sayville (where many persons prefer to drive to Ronkonkoma), and later on at Babylon (where a few minutes wait will give a choice of two electric trains (to FBA and Penn).
I Wonder When they're going to put this new equipment on the 9:02AM weekend train out of Babylon (train #8701) - I take this train whenever I go on weekend photo trips and the diesel coaches are dreadful - some without lights, some without working johns, filthy windows - won't they ever put these out of their misery?
BTW = saw #2891 and three others on the scrap yard line (near the mouth of the river tunnel) a month or so ago.
Wayne
Hey Wayne Iwas wondering if those scrapped coaches and few M-1s are still in there. They were sitting in sunnyside yard near the 39st bridge.Isaw them about a year ago? Any scrapped diesels by some chance?
[BTW = saw #2891 and three others on the scrap yard line (near the mouth of the river tunnel) a month or so ago.]
There also are some obviously bound-for-scrapping diesel coaches in the Morris Park yards. They're visible from Long Island City-bound trains.
Hey speaking of scrap - back in the early 1980s (may have been 1980) there was a very bad accident at Babylon where an M-1 derailed and made contact with the platform and platform shed. The car involved was almost cut in two near the center. I remember seeing the car number - #9625 - in the papers and in 1982 I saw this car lying in the weeds in the graveyard off the Van Wyck Expressway (I could clearly see the unit number on the blind end). Now, I see this car in service on at least two occasions! Did they repair the car, replace it, or was it renumbered? Also - any info on #9892 - is that one back in service?
Wayne
9625 is renumbered 9233.
Yes, renumbered.
OK, duly noted. But the car I saw recently (Aug 21, 1998) was numbered 9625. I was wondering about its former number.
I show #9234 as scrapped. I'm going to assume you meant that #9233 is now numbered #9625.
Do you have any info on #9892?
Thanks,
Wayne
The LIRR has advertised in some of the trade publications, the sale of the entire diesel loco and coach fleet. They gave model#, years and quantities. All are sold 'as is' so I don't think too many if any are slated for the scrapper, at least not yet.
Today I stopped by the BHRA at 141 Beard St in Red Hook. I didn't really see any museum activity except for two PCC's sitting on a track at the dock location. Has anyone heard anything about whats going on over there? I thought this fall was going to be set for opening up?
If I'm not mistaken, the museum trackage is supposed to use the Atlantic Ave. tunnel.
I've been thinking about a few things. The Lex Av/7th Av switcheroo first comes to mind. I purposely left my house early on a Sunday morning to see if I can run through the 2's crazy reroute. I was out of luck; I was on the first train to go normal. Well it wasn't exactly normal, rather the 2 shot straight up Lexington Av. Riding the 5 around the loop was a thrill in itself. It seems like I never got to the front window because everyone else had the same idea. Nevertheless, I got home on 7th Av even though I could have taken the 2 to the Bronx. I've always had to wonder though as I see the inner B loop station why it couldn't have been made like the A loop station. It could have accepted 5 cars with gap fillers and that would have been that. Honestly, South Ferry riders should have access to both the east and west side services. What about it? A free transfer between the east and west side services! I don't believe there was ever a free transfer at South Ferry.
The Rockaway situation is another thing to be addressed. RUN THE C TO LEFFERTS. It makes no sense to run the A three ways. Then again, I can't understand why the Rockaway services are uneven. I'd prefer to see the A go both to Far Rockaway and Rockaway Pk on a half and half basis. This could be a way to increase service to and from the Rockaways. I always feel that the locals should go the shorter distances while the expresses go the longer distances, but still be fully utilized. The C to Lefferts (except at night) would be of great benefit. Lets cut back on the shuttles. One shuttle is enough.
The 63rd St tunnel is nearing completion. I know how the services should be; forget about the V service. The Q service can run through to 179 St. So can the F. The only drawback is that the F would be local the entire way. If the Q were eliminated at night, then the F could be routed through 63rd St. Service to 179 St for the most part could be increased, with only the R terminating at Continental Av. The Layup tracks wouldn't be tied up, because there would be no Gs here. But if the two services to 179 St isn't going to benefit anyone, then there are other alternatives. As I recall the R trains ran to 179 St, but was pulled back, because no one cared for it. Well they might not care for both the F and Q running through to 179 St. So, they could run the F local to Continental Av and the Q by itself to 179 St. Who knows what they might do!
I like to hear your thoughts...
-C STEFFAN
Well let's throw weekend service into your mix. Let's take the G from Court Sq. back into either Queens Plaza or Continental Ave and see how it works out.
The problem is will having the G service going to Queens Plaza tie up traffic? The way I see it, the G's could run on the weekend if one of the other services is eliminated, which more than likely wouldn't happen. What's nice about the propsed 63rd St configuration (check Peter Dougherty's track book)is that the 63rd St line feeds into both the local and express tracks. The way I see things, the B train will probably replace the Q service on the weekends. Let's assume that both the express and local services run to 179 St. On the weekend B trains would go all the way to 179th St. Still, 63rd St service could be operated for locals, expresses, or both.
-C.Steffan
No, if you look at Peter's track book, the final configuration for middle track D5 will be the same as before. In the newer editions of the book, he shows the layout as it is now, and then the final layut in an inset. But now, D5 has been temporarily made into a lead to northbound D4, while D4 is realigned for the connction. Originally, D5 was a middle layup track, and that is how the G terminated at QP weekends all those years, and that is what the final layout will be again, (the connection is beyond that area, so there would be no interference at all), so there is no reason why they can't terminate the G there on weekends.
They didn't want the R because it stayed local all the way to Manhattan, but if they have the F local, as it is now, plus the Q express 71st-179th, then everyone would be pleased if both stayed express from 71st to QP.
I'd rather see the Q kept for Broadway service, and run express to 179th, and have the V go local from 71st to Church Av.
Will there be enough room on the new D5 track to turn a six-car "G"?
If so, the "G" should terminate at QP at least some of the time.
Changing from the "G" to the "E" or "F" at Court Square/23rd-Ely is a hassle (that's quite a hike down that hallway), only to go one stop and have to change again to the "R". Peg and I did this on 9/30/98 -
it was a bit of a exercise. This kind of thing gives people agita about using the subway.
Wayne
Wayne, to answer this question, D5 track can be used as a layup for one 600 foot train. So this track can accomodate a train with no problem.
Eric, I understand what was in Dougherty's book. D4 is being realigned while D5 is being used as a run through tempoarily.
A new V route might be of use as long as the increased traffic can be accomodated. Continental to Church Av is a pretty good route. The Q will returm to Bway someday, but the question is when? I like to know what the TA is going to come up with.
-Constantine
Eric B wrote:
>They didn't want the R because it stayed local all the way to
>Manhattan, but if they have the F local, as it is now, plus the Q
>express 71st-179th, then everyone would be pleased if both stayed
>express from 71st to QP.
>I'd rather see the Q kept for Broadway service, and run express to
>179th, and have the V go local from 71st to Church Av.
Agreed, until you put the V local on the Culver. Lack of infrastructure is one thing, but letting perfectly good express tracks lay (more or less) lay fallow is another entirely. Why not let the G run local to Kings Highway during rush hours to open up some space in the tunnel, allowing a V to run express in Brooklyn to Kings Hway or Coney Island?
-Daniel Casey
Any arrangement that provides express service between Church Avenue and Jay Street, as well as between 179th Street and 71st-Continental Avenue, Forest Hills will be a benefit to riders. When this connection opens in 200-whatever, it would be a great benefit to bus-to-train riders in Queens to have an express, be it F, Q or V.
My vote is for "Q" service express to 179th (with "F" local), then
all players express to wherever from 71st to Q.P. "V" might work out
very nicely from 71st to Church or Kings Hwy, provided there's some sort of express from Church to Jay.
Wayne
When I wrote that, (about the V going to Church) I assumed it would automatically be understood that the idea was to free the F to run express, with the G extended to Church also. If they send the V to Kings Hwy, that would be all the better.
Well take this Thanksgiving, I had to go from Downtown Brooklyn to Beach 136th Street (Belle Harbor). Did I take three A trains??
Nope, IRT to the Q35 down Flatbush Ave, took all of an hour.
Coming back, stopped at Kings Plaza for a Movie.
I hardly ever take the A train to visit relatives in the Rockaways.
It's a better alternative I suppose taking the Q35. Still, I think through service to Rock Park will be of benefit to everyone. Would bringing the H in as its own route help?
-Constantine
Thaks to all who answered my previous questions on the LIRR and they have brought up two three questions:
1) Why doesn't the LIRR Have Part of the trains lines that a third rail would not be sensible for use overhead electrification similar to the Metro-North New Haven Line and the CTA's Skokie Swift?
I realize that it would cost some money to convert the trains to not only " read" the third rail but also install pantagraphs and overhead wire, but wouldn't this cost less then to buy new Electric/Diesel Locomotives?
2) Why do some of the LIRR Lines terminate just short of Downtown NYC in Brooklyn insted of Manhattan/Penn Station? Wouldn't this be similar if Metra had some of it's lines terminate on the West Side of Chicago? I realize people could transfer to the subway, but that would add allot of time to your trip wouldn't it?
3) Last time I was in NYC a couple of years ago I heard talk of building a tunnel between Penn and Grand Central Station's. Has this been canceled or is it in the works? Also if this were done would eventually someday their only be Grand Central Station in NYC? But that would be to simple like here in Chicago Northwestern Station and Union station are only 1 block apart but are both used by Metra. They should just use Union Station. There is trackage connecting the two stations that Amtrak and one of Metra's lines from the north uses to bypass NorthWestern Station and go to Union Station.
BJ
As to catenary v. rail, that's a major design question, and the CTA has slowly, 1960's, 1970's eliminated overhead wire on respectively the section of the Lake St. which was grade level, and the Evanston line which originally was overhead from Howard.
As to LIRR into Brooklyn, there is a market or the trains would be empty. Union Station Chicago simply hasn't the capacity to add the Northwestern trains nor the Rock Islabd line service. If anything one can only hope that as usage grows, either a real replacement for La Salle St Sta or some other will be necessary.
Likewise in NY the Grand Central users would not fit in Penn. The good news in all of this is that rail usage is growing, much as all other things being equal, of course I would prefer genuine "union" stations. However, it is simply impractical to build such a station except in small markets
Re: 3rd rail vs. O/H ...
Besides that issue, you also have platform height & grade crossing issues that are holding back the extension of elect. service further out on LI (not to mention the cost of elevating the track ROW (dirt & concrete vs, steel)). I also need to incl. the traffic. A long time ago there was very little traffic from points in Suffolk County. So the volume of "commuters" was small ... a few weekenders from the Hamptons & other points out East. Anyhow I don't think a O/H solution would work any better then the deisels & "changing at Jamaica".
Re: Brooklyn vs. Penn ...
The LIRR has a capacity problem at Penn, that's why they wanted to be included in the tubes at 63rd Street (so they can divert some traffic to Gand Central). They have adv, the "Brooklyn Short Cut" for years to try & get some of the traffic to go there. It makes since for folks who have to go to Wall Street & other points in lower Manhattan.
It has also been posted here that a connection does exist (ROW but not track) to connect Flatbush-LIRR to IRT lines. The problem there is the IRTs are full of Brooklyn folks ... so what would you do with all of them if the LIRR took over the tracks ???
P.S. An outsiders view of what seems to make since is refreshing, thanks Windy City BJ !
Mr t__:^)
And before the West Side Yard, trains had to deadhead back to Long Island for Storage (Sunnyside belongs to Amtrak) , further cutting into volume in the East River Tubes. To this day trains are still stored at the Brooklyn yard of the LIRR.
Personnaly, I don't see any extension of electrification until Shoreham opens. And yes, I believe that Shoreham WILL open, since it would be an enormous waste to dismantle it (not to mention VERY expenmsive), and with all the east end expansion, we're gonna need a new power plant or two awfully soon. When it comes to 1 - 3 hundred million for a low powered oil plant or two, VS the same for a nuke that will put out quite a bit more (Shoreham was the largest BWR built to date I think), it only makes sense to open it up.
Anyone who has problems with evacuating the island should remember that Indian Point is only 30 or so miles from NYC, Milstone is across the sound.
And, let me repeat my prediction that the DM-30 will be a failure (expensive too), and the LIRR will finnaly come to face the reality that they will need to electrify Port Jeff, and maybe extend the Babylon one out a bit too. I'd love to say that Dual Mode locos work, but history has proven they don't work well.
My timeline is as such (your milage may vary :)
1 - 2 years: DM 30s come into service, and have problems. Dual mode feature is buggy, and unreliable. Gets disbabled on a few problem locos. Promised direct service from Oyster bay never happens, and rideship stays low.
3 - 5 years: LIPA anaounces that they are going to open Shoreham. Massive protests occur, summer of bad brownouts and blackouts changes public opinion. Long Island City station closes, GCT connection work begins.
5 - 10 years: Shoreham opens, the LIRR announces the electrification of Port Jeff, extension of Babylon, abandons Oyster Bay entirely. Glen Cove unsucessfully lobbies to have Oyster Bay electrified. ROW becomes over grown, weeded and unused.
10 years: Remaining DM-30s are scarpped.
20 years: LIRR considers the feasability of converting to 13 or 25 kv AC overhead traction. Tests it on the Port Washington line, implements to Jamacia 2 years later, runs New Haven style dual powered equipment. Begins rapid expansion of overhead.
Gee Phil, I guess no one else took you seriously :-o
Re: Shoreham, Indian Point & Milstone ... can you say close Yankee Atomic ? One of the first plants in the US is shut down & won't be back up EVER. One of the three Millstones may have the same fate. Nucular power is out ! The power companies won't invest in it, why the red tape & NIMBY law suits ... it just ain't worth the trouble !
They'll go back to burning wood first !
Re: Dual mode locos ... can you say FL9 ? They last more then 10 years and would had a better track record if they were better maintained, i.e. the crews were to quick to switch to diesel power.
Mr t__:^)
Were the R110's the trains they tested around '93 on the (2) and the (A)?.....I found the brouchere they were giving to the public, and they said they were just being tested. Have these trains been scraped? I see pictures of them in a yard on this page. And finally, are the results of those tests what they used to make the r142's?
Thanx
The R-110A, the IRT train, is currently out of service for truck repairs. It has been operating on the #2 line for about 5 years. The R-110B, the IND train, is currently operating intermittantly on the C line. Three of the nine cars have been removed from service to be used for parts. They operated on the A line for about 4 1/2 yars. Both R-110s were used to test various technologies which were considered for the R-142 and R-143 contracts....
Steve have they awarded a contract for the R-143's? And if not do you have a idea when they might do so? Thanks a lot
A long time ago, I couldn,t get into subtalk.On my computer it said,"Connection took too long".I tried other days, and the same thing happened.But not today.I finally had hope that this would come on. And it did.Can somebody tell me what happened?
It might be something to do with the 'cookie'. I had the same problem until I deleted some items from my cookie file (not really advisible). After that 'SubTalk' was accessible.
There was a bit of a hicup a bit a go but it has been fine since on my browser. I did have to redo my settings at that time.
nice to see ya back Pinta
I've found good or poor access has all to do with what time of day you try to get in. During the day M-F it is painfully slow. Since I work well past midnite, I have good access during the midnite hours & on weekends.
My answer: ditto to what Bill had to say. Seems I have better luck getting in here on late evenings during the week, but almost anytime on the weekends is good.
I've never had any prolems with this site, and i've been on it most days.
can anyone tell me the reason for renumbering the cars run on the A line and the F line? i would really like to know.
thank you
Both of the car fleets were rebuilt in the early 90s. I don't know the
exact reason, but I would guess that the NYCT wanted to go to an all-four-digit car fleet for ease of recordkeeping, perhaps. All of the R44 and most of the R46 fleet had three digits originally. They just started the new numbers right after the last number of the last car fleet (R68A) - 5202. They skipped two numbers at the end of the R44s (5480-5481) and started with 5482 for the R46s.
There's a table showing the old and new numbers FOR THE R46 ONLY in the car roster pages under R46. I don't know if they made one for the R44s, but I would like to find out what 5282's original number was so I can mark it as wrecked in my numbers books that have the three-digit numbers.
Wayne
Welcome Vicky! Are you the same Vicky Sunshine of 'F' Line fame? The re-numbering was done for 2 reasons. First, during the overhaul process, it was decided to link the 75 foot cars into 4-car units. At the same time, it was decided that the cars would be linked in the even-odd-odd-even scheme in numerical order for ease of record keeping. That decision was made after nearly 300 R-46s were done. Since swapping numbers would have been a legal and logistic nightmare, and unlinking & re-linking would be phenominally expensive, they decided to re-number following the R-68As.
That was the first time I had heard either of the parallel responses. What I had heard was to free the 100 series numbers for the next generation high-tech cars.
I was on one of those sexy new diesel trains to Oyster Bay the other day. For those who are interested, romour has it it frequents the 4:40 PM time slot...
I got to Jamacia early, so the train wasn't boarding yet. Looking over the train, the cars look externally much like the test train that has been running since the early 90's. The locomotive is even uglier than the Genesis. There is a door on the side with a window, and if you stand of your tippy toes, you can see the prime mover. it appears that the front half is the mechanical / prime mover, and the rear half all electrical. Peering into the cab, the sucker is all computer, but the control stand layout appears to be a stab at a conventional "contols to the left" design (though the brake is to the right, near the window, on the console). On the rear wall of the cab is a flowchart.....
The train puilled up a few feet, allowing one to hear the locomotive do it's thing - it is somewhate quiter than the current stuff, though the sound is MUCH more that of blowers than anything.
Nice touch: the cars have a light near the door indicating that door "is disabled" They also have such a light inside. More on this later...
The cars are nice inside. The first car had a phone / wheelchair area. It can accomidate close to a million wheelchairs. Of course, the handicapped bathroom is in another car...
And speaking of it, these cars have by far the best bathrooms of any train I've been on. Much better than Amtrak's ADA compliant bathrooms, which I feel are beyond awkward (beating out the infamous Amfleet cubical with foot wide door bathroom) Be warned that when you flush (you DO flush don't you?), that the thing flushes, then flushes again a few secomnds later to scare the crap out of you.
Going between cars is rather comfy - the doors are lightly sprung, and there are rubber seals like the MUs.
If you are prone to motion sickness, take the lower level. If you hate the idea of your butt being a few inches above the ground and going 60+ at the same time, take the upper level. If you can't stand either of these, take the bus :)
The seats are cantilevered! That's just plain cool. No support near the aisle. It gives you a feeling of move legroom.
The overhead rack on the upper level is useless. I watched a few people attempt to wedge their briefcases into it. I'm not making this up :)
The coat hooks are neat, but not as cool as Metro-North's retracto hook :)
The seats are a little hard, but I'm assuming they'll wear in quickly. The notch between the two seats is useful for reading other people's newspapers (or laptops :)
The trains talk. Apparently, the conductors already know how (un) popular this feature is. There is also a little red stock ticker like sign the scrolls the station name. I miss the charm of the conductor going between cars yelling out the stops.....
The door closing signal was adapted from the most advanced tourtue devices used in your favorite third world country. Imagine bad microphone feedback, and you're getting an idea of what it's like. I seirously wish they would have used the bell, or even one of those stupid "ding dong" things.
The phone takes your favorite credit card, and is out in the open so everyone can say hi too.
Lighting is spectacular, unless you liked those dark train cars. The HVAC system is slightly noisey, but nowhere near as annoying as the M-1/3 system. You tune it out very quickly.
The cars do sway a lot. Acceleration is typical diesel, though it feels slightly better than the old stuff. The brakes can stop the train VERY quickly. The disc (?) brakes hummmmmmmmm. And, though subdued and quiet, there is still that familliar banging grinding sound you've come to love from riding the old stuff.
Heading out to Oyster bay on a bright day, sit on the upper level, left side (faceing forward). Trust me, the view of Roslyn should be spectacular (I was on the right, but looking out, saw quiet a lot of streetlights in the distance. I wonder if you can see the Throggs Neck bridge? Oh yeah, you can now see what's over all those fences along the tracks :)
The "door disabled" light is repeated inside by the door too. The bad thing is, it seems only to report that the door is broken - NOT that the door won't open there if say, that car won't make the platform. This is a liveable thing though...
All in all, they are a nice car, except for one small detail:
THAT F&^%%*^*^&&*%^* FULL WIDTH CAB!!!!!!! AND THERE"S NO WINDOW ON THE CAB DOOR SO YOU CAN"T WATCH OUT THE FRONT OF THE %&%%^&^%$* TRAIN!!!!!!!!!
Anyone else writting the LIRR to complain???
Phil, Nice detailed post. I forwarded a copy to my daughter who caught one of those trains Wednesday night. She said the train was cool but didn't elaberate, I guess it's a teenage thing.
Mr t__:^)
Great to hear the OB is getting some new trains. On my next weekend visit to NYC in three weeks I'll definitely catch one. So it has a full-width cab with NO railfan window? Even the MBTA control cabs here in Boston have windows!
>>Heading out to Oyster bay on a bright day, sit on the upper level, left side (faceing forward). Trust me, the view of Roslyn should be spectacular
Do you mean between Roslyn and Greenvale? I get out at Roslyn, so I'll have to make a special trip.
>>All in all, they are a nice car, except for one small detail:
>>THAT F&^%%*^*^&&*%^* FULL WIDTH CAB!!!!!!! AND THERE"S NO WINDOW ON THE CAB DOOR SO YOU CAN"T WATCH OUT THE FRONT OF THE %&%%^&^%$* TRAIN!!!!!!!!!
That's not exactly true. In the cab cars, there's an extra door that swings between the cab door and the passenger compartment, so the passenger compartment can be sealed off. The actual cab door slides back into the wall rather than swings. On the window side of that swinging door, opposite the cab, is an extremely uncomfortable corner jumpseat with a pair of windows with a great view. I'm not sure but I imagine the swinging door is usually closed when the cab car is leading and open when the cab car is trailing, so you can't watch out of the front, but you can watch out of the rear. I can attest to the latter because I sat in the rear facing jumpseat from Jamaica to Roslyn. Not only did the collector not make it back to check my ticket, but a passenger came over and asked if I could turn off some annoying alarm that was blaring from somewhere in the car. When I explained that I was only a passenger, she looked at me and the jumpseat in a rather confused way and returned to her seat.
Mike.
A new RTs Nova is being prepped at Manhattanville depot. Saturday night I went inside and gave it a good look down. The number of the bus is 9900 and a Manhattanville sticker has been affixed on the side of it. Some of its features include a smaller but brighter destination sign, rear doors are not the push type but open like the Avis RTS's or the early Queens transit RTS's that open like the front door. The rear lights are smaller unlike the current RTS rear lights, somewhat like the new RTS lights on the Green bus lines. And a large tank sits on top of the bus like a methanol Triboro coach bus.
While in Brooklyn the other day I saw a new RTS numbered 4900 on the B41 in downtown Brooklyn. Are these just new Nova's or rebuilts?
Are you sure it's a new bus? Ihaven't heard anything about new buses in that number scheme coming in.Are you sure that was 4900 you saw? I question that because that is supposed to be assigned to Queens Village.They are new Novas.Manhattanville is supposed to be getting 20 of them numbered 5075-5094.Ulmer park was supposed to get 40 of them but East New york got them instead(politics Iguess).126st is getting them in now, they hsave abot 13 in,scheduled for a total of 30.Since Ulmer park didn't get new buses, they got the remanufactured buses from E.N.Y numbered 7511-7534.
That 9900 must be some kind of test bus. I had never heard of any plan to use that number series, so it must be a recent idea. The new rear lights may be LED's. The hybrid 6350 uses those too.
I first read this thread yesterday and didn't realize that the new buses were actually already out until I went out in the evening to check out the Williamsburg Bridge G.O. They had a number of them running on the Bridge shuttle, which was borrowing buses from East NY, 126th St and Flatbush. I saw 5001, 5015, and a few 4900's. I knew 4901 was testing at QV, but I didn't know they had already delivered so many. I thought the new order woud start next year.
The new LED lit flipdot signs are so cool. (That is how I first noticed new buses in the night). They are so crisp and clear compared to the florescent tube lit signs which suffer from the glare of light reflected off of the black background as well as the green dots. I used to look out for Staten Island MCI's just to see that. Also, as was reported in the news, the TA is going back to and sticking with the carpeted seats.
Busing has come along way in 20 years!
(P.S. They swiped Ulmer Park's part of the order? They better not touch Fresh Pond's portion, which is coming up shortly!)
they sent them to eny,they wont send any to staten island. at least we have 120 mcis so far.
But Staten Island will be receiving new Oeion local buses over the next few months.
They should cancel Fresh Ponds portion of the order.They do a lousy job maintaing buses.Look at what they did to 4212.They took the Bronx style numbers off the back.Sacrilegious
Sure ,Fresh Pond is supposed to get 20, but I wouldn't be suprised if the bus suits change their collective minds. After all, FP got buses from the last 2 RTS orders (9140-85 & 9569-9605), and they sent Ulmer Parks' 40 to ENY due to a feud with the TWU leadership there.
Since you mentioned 9900 had a tank on the roof, it sound like some kind of experimental Natural Gas Bus. The large tanks on top of Triboro buses is for natural gas, not methanol. I'm suprised NYCT would allow a bus to run with an exit door other than which is operated by the passenger. Too much risk of an accident being struck by the reardoor closed in error. The TA invented the passenger operated rear door back in the late 50's with the 7000 pre-fishbowl series.
While we're on the subject of buses, a statement from an x-bus driver (who was begged for a trade of his new MCI with a 8800-series RTS @ B'way and 23st) that they have no place to put the MCIs, because they a) don't fit in Castleton; and b) they havn't gotten rid of enough old RTS to fit them into Yukon
So they continue to be parked on the street near the depot (Forest Hill Rd and Independence Ave) About a dozen RTS of unknown vintage (I couldn't get close to check) have shown up at the old Edgewater Depot storage lot off of Bay St.
-Hank
I wish I knew what NYCT bus management is waiting for. There are 1982 express relics still running in Jamaica, Queens Village & Ulmer Park which could at least be replaced by S.I.'s 3800's from 1984 temporarily.
I strongly disagree.The 1982 expresses have proven to be an effective commodity in transporting people back and forth.BTW Iwas on Fifth ave and 53st recently and saw 1982 Ulmer Park express buses in service followed by 1996nova express buses. Guess what, The customers preferred the 1982s! I conducted a poll and found that they are much faster and less noisy than the JUNK NOVAS
3800 series buses are out of service beneath yukon depot.
I heard Yukon sent a few 9250 series express buses to Queens Village & Jamaica to begin replacement of their 1982 express fleet. Are all the 3800's out of service. It would seem strange that 1982's would outlast 1984's.
si general manager put a stop to that idea and we have kept our 9000 series express buses. three orions made it to casey stengel 111-113. most 3800 have been semi retired while nyct figures out what to do with them. 1700-1800 series do seem to be outlasting 3800. meanwhile nyct continues to park buses on the street and pollute the area around the mall.
Like the area around the mall isn't already polluted? I mean, you can see the garbage dump from the depot!
Additionally, since the buses would be there anyway, what additional harm is being caused?
-Hank
well yesterday the police came with the president of community board 2 a former bus driver and informed nyct that as of next week they will summons buses parked or idling in that area. on a related note mta is pouring money out to build a maintainance facility in the bronx and rebuild coliseum while spending nothing here.
I understand the new maintenance facility is going to be near the Whitestone Cinemas. Could you verify that for me? Also, If you notice,Coliseum depot reconstruction is practically non-existent. The reason is that the MTA is being sued by the preservationists claiming that they we're trying to get landmark status for it. It is the best looking depot in the system. It should have never been torn down.They should tear down Fresh Pond depot. sorry about the earlier punctuation error. BTW the reason they were seeking landmark status is because it used to be an amusement park. It was called Starlite Amusement park.The coliseum was used for circus acts etc.. Thats why it had all that additional space around it.I checked the books on the Borough of the Bronx and unfortunately no pictures were available.
Does MaBSTOA still have Walnut Depot? and tp Thurstan and all the private company operators out there Do you rely on NYC-DOT on your procurement of buses?
Gonzo
Walnut depot was closed earlier this year(excellent depot in terms of maintenance BTW). Gov Pataki sold the property to the New York Post.As a result,Bronx division route assignments were all mixed up between Gun Hill,Kingsbridge,and Amsterdam depots.Amsterdam became a Bronx division depot.The buses that were assigned to Walnut were assigned to Amsterdam.Amsterdam in turn sent those buses to Kingsbridge because Amsterdam is becoming an all Orion depot.The RTSs Amsterdam had originally were sent to the new Westside depot on 12ave and 42st(Ibelieve thats the location).BTW since 100st depot closed also,Manhattan division route assignments are scattered all over.
I forgot to indicate that Gun Hill also received buses from Walnut.
The "privates" are "operators" for NYC-DOT, some own the Depots. DOT either buys our equip. or ME-TOOs on a TA order, and sometimes it's rammed down our throat, i.e. the MTA decided none of the bus companies should let folks pay with bills. But then NY Bus Service kept fighting this & NOW has Fareboxes (from the same mfg) that take bills again, AND guess what, a hell of a lot of folks are giving them bills again, sorry Virgil.
Mr t__:^)
IT has been my understanding that these lines were moved to Westside Depot a week earlier than the other major moves. Can anyone please tell be which buses were moved to Westside to operateonly these lines?lie Please include as many vehicle nos. as possible.THANK YOU. PLEASE E-mail this info to Gerryjay@yahoo.com
What is this hateful obsession of Fresh Pond Depot with you?
Additionally, just because a depot 'looks' good to you, doesn't mean it is functional or structurally sound, i.e. Coliseum.
-Hank
Look at what they did to my beloved 4212.No more Bronx style numbers in the back.At least Amsterdam depot can have their buses painted and keep those style numbers in the back(check4464).If Coliseum isn't functional it still should have been preserved as a historical landmark considering its rich history. Fresh Pond depot,as compared to other depots is the worst in terms of maintenance.Just go out to Brooklyn and ride one of their buses. They're slow and dirty.Maybe if they had more 1982-3RTSs,it would be a more reliable depot.
Wasn't coliseum transported brick by brick from another city, was it Philadelphia?
I never worked out of Coliseum but hear many stories about the poor condition that ran out of there. Roach coaches and engines falling out of buses!
For as long as I can remember the typical Coliseum bus was in a not-so-good condition. Many buses that originally went to COL and/or stayed there for a long time did not have such a good appearance. Some of those are 1986 GMC/RTS-06 #4455-4507. Also many 1982 RTS-04 26XX spent many years at COL and they suffered as well. When COL closed most of it's buses went to Walnut.
You're right. The now-demolished building that was Coliseum Depot was originally a building at Philadelphia's 1926 Sesquicentennial Exposition (commemerating the 150th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence). The building was then taken down and shipped to the Bronx where it was rebuilt and rechristened the Bronx Coliseum.
It was used for boxing, wrestling, and bike races. Adjacent was a large outdoor amusement area called Starlight Park.
In World War II the US Army commandered the site as a truck depot and training center. In 1947 Third Avenue Railway acquired the site for re-use as a bus depot which MABSTOA later inherited.
it is being built on zerega ave and since i have very little knowledge of the bronx i dont know the area.
I noted Ulmer Park has some of the 7500 remanned RTS from ENY, i guess in exchange for not getting the 4900s.
Thats correct.The politicians should complain to the TA about not geting new buses.
Staten Island is supposed to become all Orions and MCI's. They're supposed to get over 200 new 6000's, in addition to the rest of the MCI's. The 9200's will should start going to Bklyn and Queens, and I predicted that about 50 3800's also, to completely replace the Bklyn and Queens exp. fleet (12 are already at Westside), and the rest will probably be converted to local.
Maybe they are holding them to make sure MCI's hold up and don't start developing problems. (that fleet is new to them, and they don't want a repeat of the Grummans or R-46's!)
Westside has always has those 3800s going back to 100st depot(which should be kept the way it is.Doesn't need to be rebuilt in my opinion)The express buses won't be converted into local service. They'll just run them on local routes.I have seen Ulmer Park express buses on local routes on occasion. 1982s that is.
[The express buses won't be converted into local service. They'll just run them on
local routes.I have seen Ulmer Park express buses on local routes on occasion. 1982s that is.]
I agree - Over the years many depots have operated x-buses on local routes. 100St (when it was still open) has done it for many years and I've seen the 38XX also operating on local routes. It seems that the 3800's wore out rather quickly - I'm sure that the 388X-389X at Westside probably have alot of life left in them since they've done run Manhattan x-bus routes and occasional local service.
Does local buses still fill-in often on SI x-bus routes??? I remmeber seeing them regularly in the past.
no hard seaters are put in express service anymore.
Last year at Amsterdam we had several soft seat express buses which ran only on the 79St crosstown. 1776 and 18xx, I felt both ran pretty good but I wouldn't operate them on the highways, I do tip my hat to express bus operators from the Island and Brooklyn.
Today I saw a 91xx on Metropolitan Av in Brooklyn from the Pond and the bus looked awful! Smoke was coming out of the exhuast thick and black which I have never seen from such a new bus, at least not at Manhattanville. The engine sounded as if it was ready to stall out any second.
BTW for any interested a new book has just been published called :
American buses
It chronicles the history of buses in the United States and Europe and includes pictures off practically all models from the Early 1900's to 1998. A great book for bus fans.
ISBN 0-7603-0432-7
Classic motorbooks 1-
800-826-6600
Donald Wood author
Mr Mabstoa proves my point why Fresh Pond doesnt deserve new buses.That bus may have been from 9140-49, they are the worst.
They have different engines. I think they are Cummings 6 cylinder. Many are rather noisy, so bad you need hearing protectors! Each bus of that group of 10 makes a unique engine noise!. True Fresh Ponds' 9140-85 need paint jobs: their paint is very dull. Most of this group & the newer ones 9569-9605 have squealing brakes as well. Nobody every accused Fresh Pond of having good maintance.
They simply don't deserve those buses.Send them to Kingsbridge.
Hey, Let my neighborhood have at least some of the 5000's with the carpeted seats and cool new LED-flipdot signs! You can have the 9100's if you want.
Go right ahead. 2 of them arrived today or yesterday.I saw them by the maintenance building in the back. no depot logo yet.
While we're on the subject of bus conditions - A few years ago when the 1990 TMC-RTS came (8000-8399) - Gun Hill had rec'd 8034-8079 (approx.) which later went to Mother C. Hale. Later many 80XX's were sent back to Gun Hill and to my horror - I noticed that the power mirrors were being replaced with the manual mirrors. This was the first group of NYCT buses to come with the power mirrors and if you're in the Bronx and see a Gun Hill 80XX you'll see that it no longer has a power mirror. Even the rebuilt 7001 which was at Gun Hill for awhile had it's power mirror removed. I've also noticed this on a couple of Gun Hills' 1996 Nova RTS.
Most of the new buses I've seen that came with the power mirror on the Passenger side had them removed. I never got a clear answer. the 400 and 600 series Orions that came to SI new had them, but they're all gone now. (the mirrors, not the buses)
-Hank
the bus wash broke them and ta was too cheap to buy new ones as usual.
where would one find this book?transit museum?
At our depot "hard seat" local type RTS buses regularly are added to the MCIs, particularily if a Handicaped customer is a regular. The new Orion CNGs will ply those route too.
BTW, it seems that it is finally OUR turn to start receiving more of the 70 comming, we only have two now.
Mr t__:^)
Thanks Mr t. Inoticed on 6ave recently that a 1982 200 series RTS running on an express route.I think they are 1982. Someone told me 1979.
Re: GMC-RTS from '79 or '82
If you saw #200 thru 204 they were -02s from '79, 205 begins -04s from '85, then above #243 they're -06s from '86. The MCIs are all from '88
There's also a group from 24 thru 54 that are '85 & '86.
P.S. We're retiring 3 more from within the above group this month, all happen to be -04s.
Mr t__:^)
Thanks for the clarification.The number was above 243 that I saw.
>>[The express buses won't be converted into local service. They'll just run them on
local routes.I have seen Ulmer Park express buses on local routes on occasion. 1982s that is.]
>I agree - Over the years many depots have operated x-buses on local routes. 100St (when it was still open) has done it for many years and I've seen the 38XX also operating on local routes.
This is usually temporary, as in a shortage, or right before the retirement of the bus. (Like 1776 and the 1800, mentioned by Mr Mabstoa, below, which were sent to Manhattan and ran on various routes.) They worry about local riders tearing up the seats. But if they are going to keep the 3800's for a few more years, and run some of them in local service permanently, then those will get hard seats.
Quite a bit of bus talk recently!! so now is as good a time as any to ask the following!!
Do all Bus depots have a depot badge/logo as affixed on a small circular sticker on various bodyside positions???
I have seen various designs,can anyone shed any light on what wording is shown on these logos and what images are used as background??
I show 18 operating depots (excluding repair/storage yards) and whilst most depots seem to be named after the area in which they are located Boro' wise obviously Mother Clara Hale,Jackie Gleason and Casey Stengel have been dedicated to those fine individuals.
Finally does anyone have any depot badge/logo/sticker as affixed to the buses that i could aquire??? Will gladly send London Buses logo in return!!!!!
as usual Many thanks
Rob
United Kingdom.
Yes, all bus depots have their own logo. I believe there was some kind of contest amongst the employees of the respective depots to see who could design a distinctive logo for their depot. Mother Clara Hale was a woman who cared for sick children; Casey Stengel was a former baseball manager of the NY Yankees & Mets. Shea Stadium, home of the Mets, is right across from the depot. Casey was the first manager of the team & was still the manager in year 3 when the Mets started playing at Shea. Jackie Gleason had a situation comedy show. As Ralph Kramden in the show, he was a bus driver. Those shows were classic comedy & are still shown in the NY area, albeit during the overnite hours. They actually named "the wrong" depot after him. They renamed the depot at Fifth Ave./39 St. Brooklyn after him whereas they should have renamed the East New York depot after him as he gave his address on one show being Chauncey St. That street being located in the East New York section of Brooklyn, only a few blocks away from that depot.
Ah, but he worked for the Fifth Avenue Coach Company, didn't he? Being he 'lived' in Brooklyn, and worked for the Fifth Ave Company, I think th Fifth Ave Depot was appropriate for it.
BTW, anyone remember an episode where he ticked off a supervisor and almost wound up on Staten Island?
-Hank
Thanks, Hank. I understand the reasoning.
Bill, Hank, thanks for the information, several cities in England have
adopted the depot logo idea!! using a steering wheel as the base for the logo. Good idea i think as it gives each depot its own mark depite being part of a huge city undertaking.
Thanks again.
I was a big Honeymooners fan and I always that Ralph Kramden was driving his bus in Mahattan. I guess I was wrong. Even though their address was 328 Chauncey Street - Many times they referred to their neighborhood as Bensonhurst which is probably why they Chose to Re-name the Fifth Ave depot. Just my guessing here.
Wayne
ralph kramden drove his bus on madison ave . it was two ways in those days. chauncey st is in the bushwick section of bklym but the show made it bensonhurst nyct honored jackie gleasons memory by renaming the depot.
this is obviously a test bus, thats why the number. it could be novas low floor model which nyct had in staten island some years ago.
Many NJ Transit, some Queens Transit, and I think also Septa buses have the depot stickers. The idea is cool, and I wish I knew all the garages and logos in those systems
I also wish the train yards would do the same thing and put decals on the trains, instead of the colored strips.
I have seen the garage/depot logo's on New Jersey transit equipment and some type on logo on the Triboro and Queens surface lines also although I think Triboro's are just a flag or something. Thurston can fill us in on the scoop about Queens surface.
BTW, Manhattanville depot is probably where Ralph Kramden operated a bus out of. The site was acquired by the City of New York in 1962 when Fifth Avenue coach company declared bankruptcy. However the orginal structure was torn down in the 80's and is now a new depot.
Queens Surfaces'logo is that of the unisphere in Flushing Meadow Park.The Triboro logo is the American Flag seen only on a few buses, usually the700 series. 725 and 739 come to mind.
Re: Depot Logo ...
Well, it's NOT a Logo here, it's a "Quality Control" label. Those buses that have been added to the Quality Control group get two labels on the uppr rear (L & R). It is the World's Fair Unisphere.
As far as the name of the depot ... we have two new buildings, a Service building and a Maintenance one. NYC-DOT calls this the College Point facility, we have named the Service building the Mike Riccio building in honor of a long time bus driver and respected member of senior management. His last job was to work with the local community as our liason, which he had a vested interest in since he lived in the area. He was a dear man.
Mr t__:^)
Well, the logos are affixed onto "Quality Control" stickers.
hi.
what is the font used to indicate the train numbers/letters?
for example, an 'N' in a yellow circle. what is the font
that they use for the 'N'??
thanks
mark
please respond to me directly:
mark@brainmail.com
718-302-9447
While we're on the subject of fonts, what is the font used on all of the signs in the subway?
And who remembers (and liked) the way they used to have the signs with all lowercase lettering? Does anybody have photos of these signs?
Since I work in the graphics field and am familiar with typefaces and fonts I thought I'd lend a helping hand here:
Current fonts for the NYCTA subway car route letters/numbers appears to be from the Helvetica-bold family of typefaces. The letters on the lines like "D" and "N" appear "bold" since they look alittle "fatter" than plain sans-serif type. This typeface is sometimes called "Helios" under some copyright holders.
As for the older station signs -- I don't recall what they looked like. If in my travels I should come across an older sign I will make it a point to post the name of the font (or one most similar in appearance).
cya, BMTman
I don't have Helvetica on my computer, but Swiss seems to be close.
The tradidional destination signs had their own specific font: For example anything made by Hunter had a particular typeface which confined roundness to the very corners of a character. Seashore has a pretty complete set of the Hunter master typefaces in various sizes on wooden blocks. I don't know if anyone has made a truetype or post-script version of these typefaces, but they would be of value to those who do drawings of cars by computer. This applies only to older signs, more modern stuff probably uses standard typefaces such as Helvetica or Helvetica Narrow and their derivatives.
That's a good point. The D signs on the bulkhead and side route curtains of the R-1/9s are an excellent example of roundness confined to extreme corners of a character. From a distance, the D almost looks like an O. Currently, both my bulkhead and sign box curtains are signed for the D, and I can't help but admire the way that letter appears. Next to the A, I'd have to say the D is my personal favorite route (it was also the first IND route I ever rode on back on April 30, 1967). The original curtains on the R-32s had a D with a rounder, more sweeping semicircle.
Speaking of station signs, the Grand Central signs on the Lexington appear to be of a Times New Roman font. The Canarsie line had similar signs at one time; they may or may not still be in use.
Oh yes they are, just go check out the Canarsie Line Page for examples of these beautiful, hand-made tablets. Each one bears the station name in Press Roman font, except for Bushwick-Aberdeen, which is slightly condensed. In fact, all of the Vickers tablets up and down the Canarsie Line and Lexington Avenue line (above Grand Central) are still intact, as are others on the Flatbush Avenue and Eastern Parkway lines in Brooklyn. A few look to have been actually reconstructed (Church Avenue, Flatbush Avenue, 96th-Lexington). They did a great job with this.
The Heins-LaFarge tablets are sans-serif type mostly (i.e. 33rd Street, Spring Street, Columbia University etc.), not sure of the exact font. Astor Place's faience tablet has serifs, looks to be a kind of a Cooper font (maybe in deference to Cooper Union!)
Wayne
I figured the mosaics would still be the same on the Canarsie. I was referring specifically to the placards above the platforms at center-island stations (Bedford Ave. had them, too). I remember seeing only one such sign at Union Square - at the extreme western end of the platform. Even by the late 60s, the other Union Square signs had more modern grahics (all caps, non-Roman). My strongest memory of Union Square is seeing almost everyone get off our 8th Ave.-bound train. On occasion , we would, too, and transfer to the Broadway line. Anything to get off those BMT standards and ride a BMT train with a letter (N) up front. As a rule of thumb, if we were going home right away, we would stay on all the way to 8th Ave., then change to the A (of course) back to Port Authority. If we were going to hang around the city for a bit, we'd change to the N at Union Square, ride up to 34th St., and go to Macy's or Woolworth's, then head back to Port Authority.
The NYCTA had a large orange graphics guide, published probably back in 1980. Helvetica is definitely the font, but I do not know what the name is when you had longer readings and the typeface got scrunched.
This message is for Mark in answer to his original posting of Nov. 29th. on the subject of NYCTA fonts used in subway car route letter/number signs (as well as station signage).
I visited the Tranist Museum this past Monday where I noticed the latest item in their gift shop are a number of authentic "Graphics Catalogs" that date back to 1970, but feature the current typefaces/fonts in use. These are spiral-bound volumes that even feature color swatches (samples) of the color-codes for the various lines in the system. There are templates and sign dimensions as well as the rules and regulations regarding signage use. I believe the price was $35.
Hope that helps all who are interested in this subject.
Used to have one of those books. Should have kept it, I guess...
Hi all,
I put up some new stuff today:
New section about the NY Transit Museum's BusFest 1998 with photographs and information courtesy Constantine Steffan. I hope to add more bus stuff in time. Volunteers for "busmasters" accepted...
New pictures from Joe Testagrose (a couple hundred!) added to the Car Roster pages, under R17, R21/22, R26/28, and some R4's.
Yard pictures of Concourse, Jamaica, and Unionport from Peter Dougherty.
Enjoy,
-Dave
Great Stuff David
Good to see "Resources" continuely expanding.
My Thanks also to Constantine and "Brakeman," and Joe's sharing of his files is certainly appreciated.
Pretty interesting. I was suprised to find out the NYCTA sold it's Grumman fleet to New Jersey Transit which are still in operation today. The last time I saw the Grummans' were in the early 90's on Queens Surface and Jamaica Bus private bus lines in Queens.
-GarfieldA
Dave,
Congratulations on a fine beginning. However, I have a couple of corrections (assuming that the Blitz rebuilding program cited is the one from 1984-85, partially replacing the Grummans):
1. Bus 8466 (TDH-5303) was not rebuilt by Blitz. Only 23 of the 682 1966 5303s were rebuilt. They were renumbered 5000-5022 and were operated past 1990 (the last Blitzes were retired in 1995, and I'm pretty sure that the 5000-5022 series operated into 1994).
2. No Flxibles (see bus 7304) were rebuilt by Blitz. My understanding is that Blitz was sent one to rebuild (probably a 1969-70 111-CC-D51) and it was determined that the series was too far gone. All of the buses rebuilt by Blitz were GMCs from the TDH-5303(AC), T6H-5305A, T6H-5309A, and T6H-5310A seriesm built from 1966-73.
The text accompanying the photos seems to have come from the papers NYCT put in the windows of the various buses, but in some cases it's wrong!
David
Thanks! Dave will put up the corrections when he gets to them. I furnished him with the info, but didn't realize how inaccurate it was. This stuff came of those "papers" on the windows of the buses. You maybe more of a bus buff than I am, so you can help Dave along.
Cheers,
Constantine
Hi, Constantine et al,
I'll do my best to help. BTW, it's 7340, not 7304 (fingers were half asleep).
David
Some more corrections: there is an additional picture of the old 5th Av coach where The Long Island CNG should be.
Grumman 236 is now stored at East NY, or at least it was in the summer when the picture was taken.
Gentlemen, if there are corrections to be made send email to webmaster Dave! Continue to add to the pages!
Sincerely,
Constantine
Hey, thanks for the efforts. It's nice to see some coverage of the rubber-tired side. I know to some on this site this is sacriledge (as my spelling of this is probably also!), but keep it coming. Thanks again.
All I can say is that buses are as important as trains. Buses are a form of transportation so why can't this site do a section on buses? I have an interest in buses but not as much as I do in trains. I'm not a big bus buff, but I know a little here and there.
I thank all of you for enjoying this section..... I proposed this idea to Dave and he went with it. The credit goes to Dave for designing the pages. If you can contribute anything to this section please do so. My information may be inaccurate so I'd like all of you bus buffs to chip in and help out and clarify things. I've seen some folks in the Electirc Railroaders Association with bus photos. Maybe they'd like to help out.
PLEASE SUPPORT THE PAGE!
Most Sincerely,
Constantine Steffan
Constantine-I hope the pics I sent to David a while back make it to print. I seem to be alone in wanting to collect and preserve different styles, etc. of bus signs and accoutrements. (Prob. not really alone, but seems that way sometimes! :-) )
Let me know what else I can do.
(I'm working on them Charles. :)
-Dave
Send whatever you have to Dave. He'll work on them! This site can truly represent all kinds of transportation, from rubber tired vehicles to metal tired vehicles. You know, the metal tired vehicles that run on rails!
Continue to Support the Page.
Constantine Steffan
Please, I need information of your companies that supplies you electrical assistense, I work in the subway of Mexico City, and we need a company that help us in that theme.
thank you.
Luis,
This would not be the place to find that information. As our host has placed in the header, this site is not connected with the Metropolitan Transportation Authority or any of the subsidiaries.
I recommend you write to:
MTA New York City Transit
Division of Subways
370 Jay Street
Brooklyn, NY 12201
USA
sorry - the correct zip code is 11201