Get your new 1998 Department of Buses insiders guide by calling the Bus customer relations Center at 1 888 NYCT BUS. This years book is pretty much like last years but has a breakdown of individual bus models per depot and lots of fun facts about the best bus operation in the world!
Check out my depot under M for Manahattanvile depot!
Fernando, I would love to get one of these books, but I tried the number you gave and it did not work. (I live in Chicago.)
Can you help? Also, I am always on the lookout for NYC bus roll signs, so if you know of anyone who wants to sell or trade, e-mail me, OK?
Thanks for all your input on buses. It is appreciated.
Charles, Try again ... yesterday I got a busy signal, today I got a person to answer & take my order.
P.S. Want to trade your dip/swipe cards for mine ?
Mr t__:^)
T-man, the thing said: "Your call cannot be completed as dialed. Pls check the number and dial again." Maybe the toll-free number does not work from out here (which would make sense).
Charles, Do you have any "888" numbers out there ? I assume they exist all over the USA. You might try 1-888-692-8287 again & asking the "operator" for help in dialing if it doesn't work again, OR tell me your snail-mail address & I'll call for you (they don't know where the call is comming from).
Mr t__:^)
The number does not work from MA either. It is possible to order toll-free numbers that "work" from limited areas, so this must be one of those.
True. I know the Mass Dept of Revenue has an 800 number that I cannot dial from NY for the same reason.
--Mark
It doesn't work from Wash., DC either.
Heres the address you can write to to get your copy of the 1998 Guide,
Bus customer relations center
25 Jamaica Av.
Brooklyn, NY 11207
BTW Charles, there is a address in the book for a bus club in the Bronx which may have more info on the roll signs.
I just finished reading Mark S. Feinman and Peggy Darlington's excellent tour of the Flushing (#7) line on the NY Subway line-by-line page, and was very happy to read their information about the original Willets Pt. station being moved slightly west for the 1939 world's fair. Now, what I believe is the mezzanine for the original station is visible from below at the far eastern end of the present station. It looks rather eerie, with the landings hanging out into thin air, minus stairways. I am wondering if anyone here knows anything more about this structre; i.e. might there be old signage, or other items of historical interest still in there? Does anyone have any photos of the inside?
My curiosity has got me, even having left NYC for the transit-forsaken West...
The system is full of closed mezzanines- many have been converted into office space or storage rooms. SOme like on the J line have been removed completely- only the solid trackbed(rather than seeing throught he ties) reveals where the mezz used to be located. Other mezzanines are still there and padlocked-with or without plywood blocking the windows in the doors from the plat to the mezz.
The boo, Subway to the World's Fair, by Frederick A. Kramer (1991, Bells & Whistles, Westfield, NJ; paperback) has a series of excellent photos of the modifications made to this station for the 1939 World's Fair. It also has many photos of a long-forgotten E/GG train extension from 71st/Continental Ave. to the south side of the World's Fair, using a right of way through the Jamaica Yard.
Publisher's address is 932 Woodmere Drive, Westfield, NJ 07090; phone # 908-232-1535.
It is a real decent book. Ride down the Van Wyck and imagine looking out the front window of an R1/9 instead.
As best I could tell, there didn't seem to be any stairways or ladders leading from the track level to this mezzanine, which is right there in plain sight where the old station used to be. There's no access from the street, either. Yet the outside isn't in *that" bad shape, so it wouldn't surprise me if it was storage for something.
--Mark
Now that I think of it, I do remember that at the North end of the Southbound platform at Willets Point, there was a gate which closed off the far north end of the platform. That phantom mezzanine did have a stairway up to the closed off platform.
Also, way back when (prob. mid-1960's), I do remember that along the Main St-bound track, at a location which would have been physically east of the WPB/Rsvlt Av intersection, there was some kind of structure, which might have been from the platform of the old station. I do not remember when it was taken down, and what I do remember seeing was not real long.
I heard a rumor that plans are underway for light rail using the former North Shore line on Staten Island. Does anyone know about this?
I have heard nothing at all. The north shore line needs a sea wall from Port Richmond to Snug Harbor before even a freight train can use it. There are several large waterfront washouts. Additionally, for pax service, most likely there would need to be grade seperation done where the line goes through Caddell Dry Dock and Rucci Oil co. Additionally, before anything can get as far as Jersey St, the structural integrity of the old US Gypsum plant on Richmond Terrace must be established, or the remains outright demolished. I would also assume the Elm Park-Port Richmond viaduct would need some rehabilitation, as it is unmaintained at this point. I put the cost at around 10-20 million, but the 'official' estimate is in the neighborhood of 50mil, just to get the line in serviceable condition.
-Hank
I've noticed that the pair of Chicago CTA 2000 series cars (Pullman Standard, 1964) was moved from the Harlem/Lake yards several weeks ago. Anybody know where they went?
This is the pair that had been repainted in South Side Rapid Transit livery (Pullman Green with Gold Trim) and renumbered 1892 and 1992 for the L's centennial in 1992.
At the 14th st. station on the West Side IRT, there is a gated and closed walkway to the Eighth Ave. IND station. Does anyone know why this walkway is closed? Maybe it wouldn't get a huge amount of use, but it seems to me as long as it is there, you might as well open it for whoever would use it, especially in our new enlightened age of "one city, one fare."
Does anyone have any clue why this connection is not open to the public?
This gate is closed due to concern over crime. It is one of many closed entrances/exits/passageways/former crossunders closed for crime concerns. The passageway is used as an emergency exit as well as emergency exit from the training school located near the passageway.
*opinion* I dont think it will be reopened because the longer passageways tend to become vendor sites, homeless hotels, solicitor locations, etc.. as "proof" look at 34th st/PATH, times square, WTC passageways.All suffer from these problems.
Isn't a pity that we, as the users of public transit, must be inconvenienced because the legal system makes it difficult for the operating authority to remove trespassers from their property.
Why does the public shrug its shoulders, mumble something, and then just accept it?
Why are the many inconvenienced by the few?
A little history on this may help. In about 1990 or so, a women was raped in a passageway that runs under 6th avenue from roughly 34th through 42nd street. After the rape, the TA closed a number of "dangerous" passages throughout the system, including the 6th avenue passage and, I believe the passageway at 14th street. (It also blocked entraces at 168th street, crossovers on the IRT at 23rd streets, parts of the 50th street ACE station, and others).
Yes, this is a pain in the ass. However, the problem was not so much that the TA couldn't evict the homeless from those passages. The problem was that TA couldn't ensure the safety of customers in these often remote and sometimes little-used areas. It was cheaper to wall them off than to hire more cops or pay jury verdicts.
Personally, I would prefer to have the passages open and to make an informed decision about whether or not to walk there. However, given the potentially enourmous liability of the TA for keeping dangerous passages open, the reality is that they are likely to remain shut for the foreseeable future.
My favorite solution to this problem re: long and potentially useful passageways is two-fold. First, there need to be video recorders installed conspiciously in these areas. Second, if the TA were to install moving sidewalks in the entire floor area of these places, that would make it impossible for people to loiter there. Obiously, this is a very expensive solution to a (usually) minor inconvenience.
--mhg
Well the T.A. seems to have the money to waste for cameras at straight stations for the conductor's to use but it looks like they don't seem to care about opening the passageways. Oh by the way there is a saying "There is the right way and then there is the T.A. way".
[[Well the T.A. seems to have the money to waste for cameras at straight stations for the conductor's to use but it looks like they
don't seem to care about opening the passageways. Oh by the way there is a saying "There is the right way and then there is the
T.A. way". ]]
So, either you want the passageways opened, or you just want to criticize the MTA, or maybe both. Either way, you are in good company.
--mhg
Hey Jersey Boy, just thought I'd mention...
the other day I saw that Lafayette & Greenville (a local bus service provider in Jersey City) was running a GMC new look fleet number 205 in revenue service. Been a long time since I've seen one of those on the street!
-Dave
I was on a southbound 1 and was pleased to see a whole side of raunchy ads for an adult movie starring jenna jameson. Great pictures of the bikini clad stars adorned the walls. did nyct become more liberal in who they will let advertise?
Have heard that plans are underway for a light rail to run along the former North Shore ROW. Anyone know about this?
Never heard anything about this. I have heard about freight service across the island and into the cross-harbor tunnel (fat chance). And I have heard about the Bayonne light rail being extended across the Bayonne Bridge to attract Staten Island park and riders (fat chance). And I have heard that the 42nd St light rail needs another study (good chance of the study). But I haven't heard about light rail on the north shore.
North Shore line to be rehabilitated for freight use. Abandoned (and dangerous) stations still exist along line. Presently only section from South Avenue to Visy Paper on west shore upgraded. No trains yet as far as I know, but a new railroad crossing exists at South Avenue and Chelsea Road. Forget light rail, perhaps heavy rail in the extremely distant future.
And the funney part of the studies is that they cost 2 to 3 million dollars each! Must be a lot of lawyers involved!
i read in the newspaper that union county has now back out of the deal to restore service to the north shore and ak bridge. also the rahway valley line to union
I'd hate to think that NYC would spend millions to acquire the ROW and upgrade the bridge, and Union County could just say screw you. And I don't think they can, in the long run. Railroads have all kinds of rights in the U.S., and if a carrier wants to buy land and put down rails between their system and the bridge, I think they can do it -- and use eminent domain. Could be held up for years, though.
Union County wants out because they feel that the line as now planned will not benefit businesses in the county. Apparently the operator of the line only wants to run freight trains from Howland Hook, over the lift bridge, then through Union County to the Lehigh Valley freight line.
Union cty. has made it pretty clear that they do not want to fight the project, but they do want more concessions from Norfolk Southern and CSX (who will operate the line) re local service, and maybe some noise abatement.
They went out of their way to make it clear that with some concessions, they will support the plan. I think now they are neither opposing nor supporting the plan.
Railroads can use eminent domain, but their is regulatory oversight of this (the STB = Surface Transp. Bd.) in addition to court oversight. And private railroads DEFINITELY feel the effects of NIMBY. So just muscleing through Union County is not easy...
I thought the term "Light Rail" referred to passenger service, like the new line being built in Hudson County. Awhile back, a newspaper on Metro NY transit, had a story on the proposal to restore passenger service on the North Shore line.
Is there any current information on this plan?
See one of my previous posts in this thread.
-Hank
I feel that a 450 pound motorman sorry, now they're train operators is going to be a hazard to himself. If his train goes B.I.E. in an area where there is No Clearance he is required to go between each car to check the roadbed. So let's see 10 cars that is 14 times that he must climb up and down while checking. If he comes to the I.R.T. (It's a real train division)he will have to endure the sardine cab of an R-62.
Of course, the cabs on the R-32s, R-38s, R-40s, and R42s are just a little confining, too. Not to mention the Redbirds. Let's leave it at that.
You want to talk about a small cab, look at the R44. Eventhough it is transverse, it is exteremely narrow. I have no idea how he can fit behind that console.
Hey Jeff, you handsome devil you, what happened to your picture on the Shoreline web page? It seems that when you were uncovered as the force behind "The Professor" you made some changes to the site. You are the Webmaster right?
The EastCoaster solves another mystery!
By the way, when a rapid transit car is running on overhead wire are the third rail shoes hot?
Not If it is disconected from the main knife switch box as is the R-16 at Kingston
That I am webmaster@bera.org is hardly a secret, all one needs
to do is move one's cursor over my name in any of my postings
here to see my email address. On the other hand,
EastCoaster@aol.com comes back as an invalid mailbox.
I'm not THE PROFESSOR. If you followed any of the threads that
went on here a few weeks ago, then I can't see how you could
possibly come to that conclusion, unless you think I have a MPD.
I am curious, where do I know you from, if anywhere?
To answer what I assume was a serious question: When a RT car is
running under the wire, the shoes are not hot. On cars
that originally had poles and shoes, e.g. the Chicago North
Shore & Milwaukee or, closer to home, the BRT, there was always
a big SPDT knife switch. One end of the switch goes to the
shoes, the other to the poles, and the center (blade) to the
rest of the car. So if the switch is set for overhead, the
shoes are not connected to anything and vice versa.
When museums modify subway cars for overhead operation, such as
Branford has for most of its RT fleet, they almost always
disconnect the shoes either at the truck lead or the main knife sw.
In either case, the shoes are never live while the car is under wire.
Same at the Seashore Trolley Museum.
This is consistent with an observation I made the other day while on the Blue Line in Boston. When the trains change from overhead to third rail power at the Airport station, the pantographs drop and the lights go out temporarily, even though (I assume) the third rail shoes are already in contact with the very live third rail.
On the other hand, here in Chicago, the Yellow Line (Skokie Swift, a portion of the old Chicago, North Shore & Milwaukee interurban) trains change from overhead wire/pantograph to third rail (and vice versa) on the fly, and the passengers on the train don't notice the changeover at all.
Yeah...Metro-North does that too.
They switch from 13KV AC to 600V DC pretty much on the fly.
Savy travelers will notice the ventilation system kick out and that weird blower noise on the M-2s though.
It takes a few seconds for the pan to lower all the way, and for the switches to click the train over to the rail. Same thing the other way, only the pan needs to not only be up all the way, but the piston that lowers it needs to be more or less totally retracted. Watch the departure test of the pans at New Haven and you'll see what I mean. Pay close attention to pnuematic piston that retracts the pan.
Rumour has it the first few hundred feet of line are dead, but I wouldn't count on it.
I'm guessing that Boston's stuff is the same way - the pan needs to be all the way down, oe up all the way.
I think the reason why the new Haven line uses bent arm pans has to do with the fact that the motor resistors are on the roof. Look at the way things are, and you'll notice that there's not enough room for a diamond (which would be *huge*).
Final aside - do NJT's MUs have Dynamic brake?
Diamond Pantographs went bye-bye when the last GG-1, MP-54, Lacawanna MU, EL-P (and so forth) went to that big yard in the sky. Faivley (bent-arm, half-a-graph) pans have less hinges, hence lower first and maintenance cost.
Interestingly, both types can tear down the same amount of trolley if there is a malfunction.
Ummm....Take NJT some day - diamond lover's heaven!!!!
Actually, about the only thing about NJT I like....
This is all true, but the Chicago North Shore and Milwaukee (the line over which the Skokie line runs today), used to switch from 3rd rail to trolley in a multi car train at speed using hand operated trolley pole, none of that pantograph or bow collector stuff.
Steve--The signs will go out as soon as you can reply with your address. (I lost your original message with the details.)
I have 2 signs, a route and a dest. You will like, I am sure.
Hey, Charles - did you get my address I emailed privately to you? I still haven't seen those signs, so I was just wondering. Let me know if you didn't and I will try again.
In my opinion the #1 line first. (In 1962 & 1985, the # 1 received the new cars first). Then the #7 line. The old R36's will go to the #5 line, with a few others sprinkled else where. What is your opinion?
Common Sence dictates that they should go on the lines with the oldest cars to replace the slowly aging cars.
so that would mean the r26 series which are peppered around on the 5 and 6 lines followed by r 28/29 also on basically the 5 & 6 lines .
the R 36's on the 7 line which were refurbished at coney island and 207th street with basically scrapped parts from r 27/30's shold be the first to be replaced in my honest opinion. I think it was around 6 or 7 years ago that the 7 line had the worst record for car break downs simply because parts taken from R 27/30's were used to retool the r 36's well service was also affected by the Queens blvd revamp too but i'm referring to the cars themselves I think it was mainly master controllers and other parts from the cars that were sent to pasture that were used to refurbish the worlds fair cars.
According to the last set of published stats, IIRC, the R36WF on the 7 were either the MOST RELIABLE or second most reliable in the entire system.
It is most likely (common sense has nothing to do with car assignments)that the first of the 142s will be assigned to the 1/9, as that line has both its own dedicated maintainece shop, and access to 207st Base. The 7 will definately be getting the R62As that are currently on the 1/9.
-Hank
Well just to throw a wrench into the matter I suspect they will be on the #2/#5 first.
The East 180th Street shop is being overhauled to support them (in the 5 car configuration).
-Dave
That's interesting. I always thought the 4 line received the R-62s first; that's where I first saw them in October of 1984. The first R-17s were assigned to the 6 in 1955 - probably the only time they ran in solid trains on a consistent basis.
Questions: if the R-36s (and I assume you're referring to the World's Fair cars) wind up on the 5, which cars will serve the Flushing line? If the remaining single R-62s are being reworked into 5-car sets, what will they do to make up 11-car trains? Will any of the R-62s remain single units?
I'd say the #7 would get them, because Queens has politican pull in a Republican Adminstration, and they hadn't gotten any in the last round. On the other hand, the existing #7s are working so well they might want to keep a good thing going, and replace the other old cars first.
The R62's did appear on the #4 line in Oct. '84. The R 62A's (lower serial numbers appeared on the #1 line in 1985, then as more cars were delivered,the "older ones" were transfered to the #6 & #3. (where they are today, along with 8600-8687 that used to be on the #1 since 1966). This also happened in 5/62 when the R29's - R33 were delivered. Almost all of these cars started their carrers on the # 1 line!! I lived in the upper Bronx along Broadway back then. Back in the mid-late 60's the #1 & #3 lines shared the same cars. (Today on the #1 line, next week On the #3 line.) The same held ture for the #2, #4& #5 lines. Only the #6 & #7 were basicly by themselves. (with a few exceptions).
Does anyone know how car asignments are made by the MTA?
There was discussion a few months ago on this topic. I don't know if what was said was accurate, but let me refresh everyone's memory. This doesn't make much sense, but I heard on here that the R142's would go on the #4 line, and the R68's would be transferred to the #2 line, replacing the redbirds.
Some of the redbirds are staying...approximatly 300 cars. This doesn't surprise me too much, since some of them are still in good shape. This might be a good idea anyway since there have been rumors on here that we are only getting the 600 car order from Bombardier, and that the Kawasaki order is postponed or cancelled. This is because when Kawasaki was replacing the cracked trucks for the R110A, the new trucks cracked right away. With all the problems the R110's have caused, the MTA better make sure there the R142's are much better. There will be more seats (then the R110) but not as many as the R68. This is gonna be a huge problem if they do go on the #4. This line is already packed, and now there will be less seats and standing room.
The R142's will go to the 2 & 5 lines first, followed by the 7 and then to replace the redbirds on the 4 & 6. If any one has been up to the E. 180th St station, you will have probably seen the new car barn being built to the west of the station and yard (on your right when riding a Manhattan-bound train). This barn is being built for the care and feeding of the R142's. Therefore, they will appear here first.
I thought that barn was for the R-142 acceptance testing, and that one of the former express tracks on the ex-NYW&B was being restored also for acceptance testing.
--Mark
I'm sure you meant to say R-62 instead of R-68. There would be just a slight problem with R-68s attempting to run on the IRT.
I saw solid trains of R17 on the #4 line in the late 70s and early
80s. These cars wore 6700 series numbers almost exclusively.
Also solid trains of R17 on the #6 (6800 series cars only)
from the late 60s until they were retired.
Wayne
I understand that most of the R-17s remained on the Lexington Ave. routes for the majority of their careers. As it turned out, I didn't ride the Lexington all that much, although my first experience on the IRT was a ride on a 5 on August 9, 1967 to the Bronx Zoo. The only detail I can recall, other than being on a fast train, was that the doors didn't have rubber grommets around the windows on the inside a la the R-10s, so it's possible that that could have been an R-17. Some migrated over to the West Side lines, but ones I saw were always intermixed with other cars. The only solid trains of R-17s I ever saw were on the 42nd St. shuttle.
all the red birds would be scrapped since they're approaching 40 yrs of service which i believe is the life span of a subway car.
Specifically, the R-26s will reach the big four-oh this year, followed by the R-28s. If I'm not mistaken, there are currently more Redbirds than R-142s on order, which means that if all of the Redbirds are scrapped, there will be 200 or so fewer IRT cars than there are now.
Granted, corrosion has taken its toll on the Redbirds, quite possibly more on some than others. Why not keep the ones with little or no corrosion? How have the Flushing R-36s fared in that regard?
I think, if anything, the World's Fair cars have more rot on them than the rest of te redbirds. Not only are they stored outside (granted, all subway cars are) but they do a good 99% of their operation above ground. And the rain over NYC is not good on metal at all....
-Hank
You bring up a good point: there's a lot of salt in the air over NYC, and salt isn't very kind to alloy steel. I saw enough automobiles with body rust when I lived back east; here in Denver, cars don't rust nearly as much because it's dry, but there are a lot of cracked windshields due to all the damn gravel that's dumped everywhere during the winter. My Jeep is on its FIFTH windshield in ten years!
It's true that the Flushing line runs above ground for nearly all of its route in Queens, but so do all of the IRT lines in the Bronx, as well as the Brooklyn line past Utica Ave. The White Plains Rd. segment (2/5) is probably as long as the elevated portion of the Flushing line, and both of those routes have Redbirds assigned to them. You don't lose much with the Dyre Ave. line, either. I would say that all of the Redbirds spend an equally proportionate amount of time of exposure to the elements from running above ground.
Let me put my two cents worth in:
(I have NOT read the sea of posts yet).
I think they probably will go to the #2 and #5 lines, and some to
the #6 as well.
Wayne
In the last few weeks I have seen two oddities at the Grand Central Station subway stations. One was the "Lexington Avenue" line and the other was on "The Shuttle". After waitng for 10 minutes for the uptown 6 at about 7:55 am in that oven of a subway station, the local finally arrived. True to form the dispatcher decided to hold the train at the station until the next two express trains unload their passengers. (I have two words for the train dispatcher: one is a verb and the other is a pronoun, second person, for this daily delay). I noticed that the lead car of the express had a square window on the front door of the lead carjust like the R-21's. I didn't get the car number because I was in the back of the train and his holiness, the dispatcher, made our train wait until the express train was halfway out of the station.
However two days ago, while leaving The Shuttle (track 4) at Grand Central, I noticed that car #1913 of the train on track 3 had an upside down route number sign. Generally not a big deal, but the number was eleven which the Flushing Line colors. It probably means nothing, but I thought I'd just pass this along.
The R-21s and R-22s had drop sash windows on their storm doors; the only other cars to have such windows were the BMT standards, Triplex units, and possibly the multisectionals. Was the express made up of Redbirds or R-62s?
You either saw car #7821 (R-28, I think) or 7773 (an R-26). These cars have second-hand R-21-type storm doors on one end. Those are the only ones that I know of, and I don't think any car has an R-16/R-17-type doors with the round window.
Add 7875 to your list. 7/15/98 @ 1412 hrs, I was operating on a #5 train out of New Lots Yard and noticed a storm door with a drop window. I made note of it just in case this topic came up.
Add 7875 to your list. 7/15/98 @ 1412 hrs, I was operating on a #5 train out of New Lots Yard and noticed a storm door with a drop window. I made note of it just in case this topic came up.
P.S. The storm door is on the #1 end.
Redbirds
To the best of my knowledge, all R62 cars have route signs that go up to 13 in the following colors-
Red - 1, 2, 3, 9, 12, 13
Green - 4, 5, 6, 8(?), 10
Purple - 7, 11
Yes, that's a confirm on the green "8". Saw it between two cars
of a #6 train some months back.
Wayne
On my way to work last Monday, I see LRV 3682 (Kinki-Sharyo, I believe) sitting on a flatbed truck in the Wide / Heaving Load Waiting Area. (Wish I had my camera!) I guess it was on its way back home.
My question is ... where was it coming from? Elmira or Yonkers, NY for an overhaul??
--Mark
I think that 3682 was the Type 7 sent to Breda for the modification for MU'ing with the Type 8's. If it wasn't, could one of our Boston correspondents correct?
Boston Kinki-Sharyo Type-7 has been at Breda in Italy for prototype modifications, so that the Type-7s can trainline with the new Breda Type-8s.
While that's an interesting routing from Italy to Boston (via the B-N Bridge!), that's from where she came!
When I get home from work, my 6 year-old daughter is usually watching "Where in Time is Carmen Sandiego" on WNET (PBS) here in NY. A few weeks back, to my amazement, they were asking questions about subways! Many of them were about NY but not all. Some 11 year old girl won a new computer by winning this game.
Some of the questions they asked (all multiple choice):
- what subway was built to withstand earthquakes? (Mexico)
- first underground subway (London, 1863)
- first underground subway in the US (Boston)
- date NY subway opened (we all know that one)
The bonus round had the kids try to figure out what events occurred before others. I ended up taping the last part of the program for myself!
--Mark
Carmen is big in our house. (Our kids are grown, the grandkids are too young.) The "spousal unit" (aka Wife) is the big gamer in the house. A friend says he is waiting for Where in the H*** is Carmen Sandiego. (HA! HA!)
Knowing the theme of Where........, Carmen or one of V.I.L.E. gang would steal the NYC Subway, and the ACME operative would have to catch the thief to advance.
Recently,I was in a situation where I had to take T.A. surface transportation.I had to take two MABSTOA buses and two brooklyn division buses(TA).Upon dipping my pass into the farebox each time,it came up invalid.Therefore,in each instance,I was told to pay the fare or get off.I got off.I guess if subway workers supported a giveback union leadership like the busdrivers do,I wouldn't have had this problem.Maybe the driver pressed a button on the farebox to make sure it didn't accept the pass.
You may have a defective MetroCard/Employee Pass. I'm not sure, when a Bus Operator encounters an employee pass, if he knows what department the fellow employee works for. It is true that the bus operators, as a rule, support the Willie James people while the subway people support New Directions. I am curious to find out what your travel itenerary was that you had to take 2 MABSTOA buses & 2 Brooklyn buses, as there are only a few places they intersect (Brooklyn Bridge- City Hall & Delancey-Allen Sts.are the only 2 places I can think of off hand). I haven't heard of a button the driver can press that will reject a pass, but since you are a subway worker, maybe your pass has some kind of steel dust infection! I doubt if there was a correlation between your pass not being accepted and political agenda. Then again, if you kept getting off how did you get there?
Check your pass. There are passes with the letter U and some with the letter E. If you have a pass with the E, that pass is not valid on MABSTOA Bus services.
Background on "surface fleet":
TA has about 4,000 buses, "privates" about 1,000; "privates" carry MORE folks in Queens then TA. Yes true !!!
TA was issued "employee" MC, the "privates" decided to pass on them & therefore still use the "flash pass" methode. TA can't ride for free on the "privates" & vise versa for "privates" on TA. "privates" free ride only applies to local service .... so maybe this was the problem for Barney, i.e. there maybe some kind of Express lockout.
Another point, to my knowledge there is NO lockout button on the farebox, BUT there is a over-ride button !
Disclaimer: I don't work for the TA & opions expressed her are my own.
P.S. There are others that try to board for free, e.g. Rikers security, and there has been an ongoing battle of WHO is going to reimburse us for this. Also we provide FREE rides to the ferry on the East river.
Mr t__:^)
I rode the subway in between the buses.I took the m7 to the m23,transfered to the N train(my favorite line,excellent jobs on that line espcially out of city hall). I took it out to QBP,transfered to the B61.I took that out to Manhattan ave,and transferred to the B24.The driver on the B24(late p.m run)threatened to call for police if I didn't pay the fare.Finally,in disgust,I threw my hands up and said I supported Willie James and the driver let me on.
Sounds to me that your pass may be expired or if you are out on disability it may have been put on a negative list. I can see you having a problem on the OA buses, but you should have had no problem with the TA buses.
Fernando makes a good point, but I think the TA set the Expiration date higher on the Employee/Sr/Disabl MCs, e.g. 2000 vs. 1 yr, now maybe this employee got his early in the porgram, BUT it works on SOME of the system, so it can't be expired ?
Mr t__:^)
The Lenox Ave. tunnel is now being rebuilt, due to serious water damage. Does anyone know what priorities exist for other critical parts of the subway system in serious need of maintenance, repair or replacement? What is the Lenox project costing? What are the cost estimates to properly address the other major system problems?
The MTA supposedly has a "state of good repair" maintenence plan out to 2100, but no one has seen it. The real question is, does the MTA expect its system to the be the same 50 years from now as it is today, or is there some plan for qualitative improvement over time.
At City Planning, Reuter mentioned a 30 year effort to replace the signals to allow more trains per hour and faster run times, and the connection to LGA (the MTA and Port Authority) supposedly agreed to City Planning plan but nothing happened). Ring mentioned the upper half of the 2nd Ave subway and the LIRR connection to Grand Central.
Then again, no one mentioned the Lenox Tunnel. My assumption is that the MTA plans to keep all the existing MOW as it is, and repairs it when disaster threatens. The MTA position is that the City of NY should fix the east river bridges with its own money -- separate from the money city residents pay to the MTA through the state, freeing MTA money for the LIRR, etc. There is a cost shifting going on, and it isn't going to get any better as Pataki and Giuliani compete for national attention.
What rsponsibilities does the MTA have under any law(s) that established it? Can it really duck out from under its responsibilities? Who is paying for the Williamsburgh Bridge train structure repair> Has the MTA sought federal funds to build a tunnel replacement for the Manhattan Bridge? If not, why not? Maybe the MTA needs to be sued to get it back "on track" with its responsibilities. What do you think?
Mike Rothenberg
I think the MTA's position is that asking it to fix the bridge is like asking it to repair the streets its buses roll over. And the city is fixing the bridge, but it is taking its time, and hasn't had much success. And the city will certainly not consider building an alternative, since that (like the tunnels) will be the MTA's responsibility. If this were upstate, the state would pay for it, using money collected, in large part, downstate. But the Vampire State considers the city to be a cash cow.
Just following the point, when you look at spending as a share of personal income, transportation is a bottom of the barrel priority among NY politicians of all parties. Add in the debt, and the condition of the school buildings, and you see that the future is a low priority. No one is going to do anything about this until it has to.
Then you have all the federal and state money sucked out of the city for transportation purposes. If the city spends its own money, the federal and state governments will just say "great" and spend the city's state and local taxes elsewhere. So you have an institutional imperative to pass the buck.
I'd like to see all federal and state transportation spending eliminated. If the city kept its own tax revenues at home, and had the freedom to decide what to do with them, things would be different. But the city is transit oriented and the rest of the world is not, and that hurts us. In the grab for a common pot of money.
Larry I have to disagree with you. I hope to see something like a Esinehower/Moses kind of guy who cares about "transit". The Amtrack/commuter/subway/bus system should be intergrated, particulary in the tri-state area. We're strangling ourselves to death (cars/trucks/polution). If NYC trys to go it alone it would have to be done in one political term. Do you realy think the politicians could come up with a master plan, that covers a number of years, that has the financial backing, that makes fundamental changes to the infrastructure ? I don't ! Then there's the MTA, TBTA, PATH groups to be considered, just with them involved it has to be a multi-state thing !!!
Rudy & has pals at DOT need to keep trying to do the best they can with what they have, but they need help (muscle/money) for above.
Mr t__:^)
Yesterday afternoon around 3-330pm I saw the 110A on the center track running on the 5 express. Maybe the 110A is back in business for now at least
According to the ERA Bulletin I just got, it is now assigned to the #5
Did they change the electric sign in the head of the front car from a 2 to a five, or did they just put a 5 sticker in the window?-Nick
Even though I haven't seen it on the 5 yet, it is obvious. The cool thing about electronic signs is that you can change them with the touch of the button, and program all kinds of unexpected routes. When it was first delivered, and displayed in the transit museum, they changed the sign to the #4, then to a red diamond "S", and a yellow 3! These would have been ideal for the reroutes going on now on the 2. And I hope when the B div. cars are delivered, they will be able to use full color signs (which have new blue LED technology). Then they could have a while L, and a blue A, if necessary
To my TA friends ... Why does the TA still issue paper "Block" tickets, i.e. those long pink things, in this age of dip/swipe cards ? I would think you could use a magnetic transfer type device, like the buses issue for cash payments. This would FORCE the customer to use it for the entended purpose, i.e it would be good for a free transfer anywhere (in the same direction on the system) AND would expire in two hours ... so they couldn't hold onto it for months !
P.S. We got a bunch of again this month, the N must have been out of service for some reason.
TIA - Mr t__:^)
There for unscheduled service disruption, I quess no one planned to add the money to install transfer printers in subway stops. Also a lot faster to place someone at the gate to hand them out.
I forget the rules about block transfers, but station agents can't just issue them on a whim >G<.
Lou, I'll bet the Station Agent could insert them in the unit in the booth & they'ld come out encoded. Chicago bus drivers have to insert them one at a time when a cash customer wants a Transfer.
They could also print them pink or some odd color so the bus driver would know to save them (the TA drivers may throw them away, but the "privates" turn them in for 1.50 each). It may NOT be something the Agent would want to do, but it seems to be a serious design error on the part of the TA folks at Livingston Plaza, Brooklyn (notice that I didn't mention any names here).
Disclaimer: I don't work for the TA or any of it's divisions.
Mr t__:^)
the rules for block tickets are as follows: There has to be an *unplanned blockage of a line or a section of a line. Ex: A watermain break floods the seventh Ave IRT--all four tracks. We'd call for permission to issue block tickets.Now let's say that there is a stalled train at 72nd st local and a watermain break at 34th local and another stalled train at Houston Local. All uptown trains are running express to 96. No block tickets would be issued since dowtown is running. (these examples are made up examples.) Another example-- a train breraks down at a switch such as 36th street 4th ave. No B service to COney Island--since Manhattan B is running-no block tickets. I hope this helps.
I was hoping that you might reply to this ... Thanks
We at the "privates" & naturally the TA "surface" div know WHY the Block Tickets are issues. So you comment was, I hope, informative for those who didn't have a clue what I was talking about.
My question to you is why don't we have a automated way to auth folks displaced off the subway to find another way to complete there trip, e.g. a variation of the "bus" magentic transfer ?
Another point: We (at the "privates") have to turn these things in to get paid, if it was a magnetic thing that went into the farebox we'ld get paid automatically. Maybe it's the tail wagging the dog mentality, i.e. the "TA" throws them away so they don't care about our need ?
Well maybe I'm letting this conversation get too close to home, so I'll stop. It's just that some parts of the design of the system just don't seem to make any since to me. It's my MIS prior experience.
Disclaimer: Oponions expressed here are my own & NOT my employeer, Rudy Giuliani, the DOT, the TA or the White House.
Mr t__:^)
Thurston,
Let me point out (you can blame Livingston Place) that bus transfers can't be used in the trunstile. Are they too flimsy for use??
I know why they can't be used, get a metro card for bus/subway transfer is TA view but maybe the cheap paper cardboard won't swipe or hold up to the swiping?
It would be too expensive to make transfers out of laminated metrocards.
Lou, You bring up a good point, but it wasn't directly related to this tread:
- Blocks are issued at the subway for use on the bus, although I've walked from IRT to IND (upper Manhattan) to switch when IRT went down.
The only problem I ever had was trying to get back on the IRT, e.g. 1/9 was down, the evening was pleasent so I walked to 96th & the Agent gave me a hard time (the 2/3 was working & I wanted to get to 34th).
- Mag Transfer are issued when you pay cash if you want to transfer. Now to follow your point in another direction: Why did the MTA/TA decide that folks paying cash weren't entitled to a free transfer on the subway ... that's a good question. The farebox dip system reads them very well thank you. I'll bet the turnstile COULD read them too.
Disclaimer: I don't work for the TA or any of it's divisions.
Mr t__:^)
the idea was to switch everyone yes everyone to metrocard for the privilege of bus to subway transfer. to me it seems more subliminal to get everyone to use metrocard but the automated vending machines which will spit out metrocards will be here soon and I truly can't wait to see the fur fly when these machines debut and watch those lines grow as people use them hahaha!!!!!
to put a twist to this post regarding cardboard metrocards apparently plenty of riders do not refill(add value) to a card and toss out after they're used up. a card by the name of triflex material was being tested I guess for cost purposes versus the plastic card. I guess the cardboard transfer was never intended and probably never will for intermodal use.
The reason that the cardboard bus transfers are not good on the subway is to encourage people to buy regular Metrocards for the transfers. If the buses needed to dispense subway transfers for cash fares, each bus would need many more blank transfer stock than the farebox holds. There is room for two 500 transfer rolls inside each farebox. A light comes on when one roll is empty.
As to bus breakdowns and delays, the bus operator can issue 30-minute cardboard transfers good on the next bus of the same route, so the MC encoded transfer need not be used if the bus breaks down.
Paper cards CAN work in the turnstiles, because they were used at Franklin Av, before the shuttle was closed. As a couple of the other responders said, they are just pushing the Metrocards on the people.
I heard there was atest of laminated paper cards, but I don't know what came of that. It would make sense since many people dispose of them, and the new unlimited passes can't be reused. What I like are the new Metrocard recepticles--a little stainless steel box with a slit placed on the side of card readers. They are only in some stations. Perhaps some of those cards can be retrieved by the clerk and reused.
Well that probally won't work, because it brings in a whole "security" issue, i.e. what would the clerk do with a card that had money left on it ?
- Bad card, works some times, customer chucked it vs. asking the agent to transfer money to a new card.
- Expired card with money left.
- Card with less than 1.50 left (incl. "bonus" money that didn't get used "first" as it's designed to do.)
I don't think the TA wants to be bothered with recycling MC. They don't want to count money or sell tokens anymore.
Paper MC for the "unlimited" version might work.
Disclaimer: I don't work for the TA or any of it's divisions.
Mr t__:^)
Thanks Buff, I knew there were strick rules on the block transfers.
This morning the switch at Prospect Park was broke allowing only express trains. Since the TA in its wisdom removed all interlockings between the Park and Kings Highway, ALL D trains north of Kings Highway had to stop and stay and their next station (we passed 3). All other D's were running express from the Highway.
A co worker complained he couldn't get a block ticket to take the bus to the F since Coney Island D's were stopping at Ave M. Now I know why!!
Poor annoucements were made at the local stops, some of the looks of pax waiting as the D ran express were quite intresting.
I am sorry about the poor announcements. Most announcements are made by the station agent in the booth. We have a scanner but many agents (I am not one of them) turn it off or very low and as such they dont hear the announcements. If we do not hear the announcements on the scanner then we cannot announce to the passengers. In addition, not all booths have a pa system microphone to make annoucements. Not all agents will call another booth in the same station and have them annouce. I do call other booths whern I sdont have a mike and need to make an announcement. Transit is working on a new PA system but completion is a long way in the future.
Please bear with us.
Nah, most Brighton Line local stops are one booth anyway. Annoucnments at Kings Highway seem to come from some central location not the one of three booths open (during rush) since annoucemnets are address the line not the station.
Annoucments at Brighton Beach are made by the dispatcher "Next Q train will depart 4 track...(pause)... that's our Citybound express track, expected departure is 8:35".
I always wonder if he is gonna add what track it is since the normal customer does not know the track numbering.
Does anyone know where I can one of these vests? I thought they would be a good idea for night bike riding.
Byron
The Home Depot has one that is similar to the one that NYCT uses.
The main differences are:
The one at the Home Depot has the silver reflective strips versus the silver on yellow on the NYCT ones.
It does not have the MTA New York City Transit logo on the back.
The cost at the Home Depot is about $14.95 (I bought one a while back)
As of 8/30/98 I am designing a single unit I.R.T. car, (w/its own converter and air compressor) like the R-62. Those T.A. "know it alls"
might be upstaged. They might actually have it built!! The drawings look unorthodox, with the strangest looking trucks you'll ever see!!
Will it have destination signs on the bulkheads, as well as route signs? It doesn't matter if they're cloth or electronic, as long as they're legible. I like to know where a train is headed as soon as it pulls in. I'll miss the Redbirds for that very reason.
I OVERHEARD TWO TRAIN OPERATORS DISCUSSING THEIR NEW THEY CALLED PICKS THIS MORNING DOES ANYONE KNOW IF THE SCHEDULES ALSO CHANGE?? IF SO I AND MANY OTHERS WILL HAVE TO ARRANGE THEIR COMMUTES DIFFERENTLY THANKS...THEY SAY THEY CHANGE ASSIGNMENTS...
A 'pick' (or 'job' in AMTRAK parlance; 'line' in airline pilot-speak) is the set schedule that an individual employee works. Picks/jobs on railroads change a number of times per year (lines, monthly on airlines), and are awarded on the basis of seniority. They do not mean that public schedules change.
Public schedules for the subways are available on the MTA Web Site.
"Picks" at the "private" bus operators is the same as Todd said. Since our people are TWU & love Sonny Hall, I have to assue the same goes for the TA folks. I'm a former Teamster, but that's another story.
Mr t__:^)
Perhaps. There are usually a few minor schedule adjustments made with the advent of a new pick, especially in Buses. Sometimes it's only a few trips by a minimal number of minutes.
For example the S-79 I use will leave the SI Mall 3 minutes earlier, making me miss the R train BEFORE the one I want by 3 minutes. The next S79 will leave too late for me to get the R I want. Oh well!
Also in buses many lines have significant changes between the winter and summer schedules for school service.
Since the Subways did not go to the light riding schedule this summer (because of the unlimited Metrocards), there should be minimal changes for the fall service.
I'm looking for subway/transit buffs in the Philadelphia or New York
City area who I can keep in touch, and possibly hang out with,
preferably in my age bracket (I'm 34), or younger. I'm always looking
for someone who I can chat with on transit related subjects, as well
as someone I can meet up with whenever I go into Philly or New York
to ride and photograph/videotape the subway system (I live near
Philadelphia). If anyone here in SubTalk is interested, and/or knows
of anyone else who may be looking for "transit friends", please let
me know by e-mailing me at: timtodd@hotmail.com
Thank you very much.
Timothy
In reading the generally awesome line-by-line piece on the Flushing Line; there still is a question to beg: When Exactly did Express service begin on the Flushing Line?? In the Worlds Fair book by Kramer it is insinuated that the line had some sort of express service before the fair modifications, but Ive also heard that the WF was the start of express service...Plus the old Interbourough system map seems to indicate that exp sevice existed only to Corona Plaza....??????
Plus the old BMT maps show only local sevice...What Gives????
Curious....
Ah, but which World's Fair in Flushing .... 64 wasn't the first !
I'm sure there was express service to the 1939-40 World's Fair. The Willets Point station was upgraded at that time. That was also when the BMT rebuilt those open platform el cars into what became known as the Q units.
In Frederick A. Kramer's excellent book Subway to the World's Fair it is mentioned on page 27 that express service to Willets Point began on April 24, 1939. Both IRT and BMT trains ran express service on the middle track.
See the 1939 service guide for the BMT to the '39 Fair at http://www.nycsubway.org/histmaps/Bmt39wf3.jpg
It mentions the express and local service from QBP to the Fair.
I didn't see any schedule info in the IRT guide at: http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/irt39wf.htm
The map on page 6 does show the express and local stops marked on the Flushing line.
Why not just charge a tax for people who live in or near big cities that goes to transit authority's instead of fare collection?
Single people or people with no children still pay for schools.
Likewise with the Library and road systems. Some people will use a new road built in the area and some won't because they don't need to go where it does.
What's your thought?
I think this would be good, but then bad, the CTA and NYC Systems wouldn't make nearly as much money and would really be in debt!
The MTA collects all kinds of taxes. Everyone living downstate pays 1/4 cent in sales tax to the MTA. Every business pays a special corporate income tax to the MTA (that's why the Wall Street boom has generated a big MTA surplus). When you sell real estate, some of the tax goes to the MTA.
Thats' one reason the MTA isn't as bad a ripoff for New York City as, say, the Port Authority. Although city residents pay a higher share of the cost in fares, and get ripped off on the toll money, but suburban residents and businesses pay the same tax rate as city residents and businesses even though a far higher share of city residents use transit. Some years ago, Dutchess County considered pulling out of the MTA because its businesses didn't want to pay the tax.
I estimated at one point that the average city resident saved about $3,500 per year due to all the cars they did not own. Suburban residents own cars at the national average, even though many of the 600,000 who commute to the city use transit. I guess those transit riders are so rich and extra car or two doesn't matter.
[Suburban residents own cars at the national average, even though many of the 600,000 who commute to the city use transit. I guess those transit riders are so rich and extra car or two doesn't matter.]
I wish ...
Many if not most suburbanites, including many Queens and Staten Island residents use mass transit to get to/from work. These same commuters use their autos for all other non-employment related transportation. It's not even about being 'rich' enough to own cars. A lot of non-rich folks own a new car and a clunker or two for the wife and teen kids.
I'm one of those poor white folks that you're talking about, thank you very much.
Those who use mass transit, and still use autos for other trips, can still save money by having one car instead of two. The national average is over two cars per household. In addition to the many NYC residents who have zero cars, many (like myself) are more likely to one car instead of two -- despite using the car for non-work trips. This includes residents of most of Queens and the north shore of Staten Island.
Out in the burbs, however, auto ownership is at the national average, so the cost of the second (and third car) is not saved, despite higher transit ridership than the national average. Two possible reasons. First, even if you are taking the LIRR, you still need a "station car" to get back and forth. Second, the suburban residents who commute to Manhattan are, on average, just about the richest people in the U.S., so why not have a new Ferrari as your station car (note the NY Times article on the Greenich yuppie who had one Ferrari but wanted another in a different color for variety). Suburban residents who work in the suburbs or in the outer boroughs, on the other hand, are much less rich, but they have to drive to work, so they need the second car anyway.
Larry, A little input for your formulas:
I don't know if we the typical family, but I think some of the NEED for the second, third, fourth cars relates to lower vs. middle class.
Those at the lowest level in the suburbs can't affort one or two cars, so they have to ride LI Bus vs. choose to. For others the bus/train is very convient so they use it & don't have to buy that second car.
For example: I recently had four young adults still in the house, three with cars. My philo has been I'll send you to college or pay for the wedding, but don't ask me to finance a car or the insurance for it. So, one used it for college in the evening (could ride LI bus, but didn't want to); one used it to go to the next town (same bus route all the way to the job); one used it to go a few towns away (reverse direction, could have used LIRR & bus); last was still in high school, had a drivers license, but wasn't ALLOWED to drive because spent all her money from work on herself (used taxi to/from work, could have use LI bus, one line there, but no service back .. too late). Wife drives, myself drives (1/2 hour vs 1 1/2 commute).
Now I've done it ! No respect for me cause I don't use transit every day ? I did for 11 years & ENJOYED the ride !
P.S. All of the cars at this house were made before 1990, so aside from the cost to keep them runnung & ins they DIDN'T cost tens of thousands of dollars.
Mr__t:^)
Didn't imply disrespect for car owners, I own one too.
Another factor on Long Island (think that's where you live). This is based on the area where my wife grew up (North Wantagh -- Levittown.) The towns grew up around the rail stops, and that's where the higher priced housing is located. The people who live there could walk to the station, so they could get by with just one car, but they're so well off they don't bother. They just buy another car or two because its more convenient that way.
Meanwhile, the post-war tract developments were built away from the rail stations on farm land. People who live there have less money, but they have to drive to the station and park, absorbing both the cost of the station car and the parking. So they're stuck with the extra cars, like it or not.
And the residents of the better off areas don't like you parking on the street near their homes. My in-laws always had two or three old junkers that my father-in-law maintained himself. My wife used one to commute, and found acid poured all over it when returning home one day. Didn't park on that street again. Douglaston, Queens residents are pushing for resident-only parking to keep the Levittowners of the world from parking on the street and walking to the train station. Pleeeze!
BTW, my father in law tells me there used to be an LIRR branch through Levittown, or in the vicinity. It was empty grass behind people's backyards for a lot of years, but the homeowners pressured the state (after the takeover) to sell it off to them at pennies an acre to ensure it could never be used for transit. Shows how a small special interest can really screw the majority of they're not watching. Wouldn't the value of property and the quality of life be better today if you could walk to the train? The relationship between quality transit to Manhattan and property values is clearly positive. There must be hundreds of little deals like this in every session of the Vampire State legislature.
>And the residents of the better off areas don't like you parking on >the street near their homes. My in-laws
>always had two or three old junkers that my father-in-law maintained >himself. My wife used one to commute,
>and found acid poured all over it when returning home one day. Didn't >park on that street again. Douglaston,
>Queens residents are pushing for resident-only parking to keep the >Levittowners of the world from parking on
>the street and walking to the train station. Pleeeze!
Larry,
Why is it wrong for homeowners not to want other people parking their cars in front of their house all day. If I lived near a train station I wouldn't want people dumping their cars in front of my house all day. I would like the spot to be available for people in my house or from the block. Have you seen some areas near stations without restrictions. The people who live there can never park near their house. Often people block their driveways. Also, commuter cars tend to be bombs. They can be a pretty ugly sight. I wouldn't want a old rusted car in front of my house all the time.
This is what station parking lots are for. I know many stations have insufficient spaces, but people pay more for homes within walking distance. They should be able to park near them.
Regards.
Oh, one of the guys that Larry was talking about answers, good for you. Doesn't mean I agree, but in any case it's valuable to hear your side directly !
In my "village" some cheepskats park on the streets because they never went to the town hall and bought a parking sticker for the lot. Some end up on the next street from me. Lucky me. In others, on the Babylon line, the lots are full to the overflowing. Back in Queens at the end of the E/F/J/Z or A it's the problem you stated. Some folks don't want to pay for the LIRR ride, others have no service (my point: we need extensions/more service).
However I have to say this: Why on earth did you buy a house near the station or the airport ... it was cheeper, well you can't complain now, unless you were wareing very dark sun glasses that day. I'm sorry I purposely didn't buy that house ! When I was a renter I had enough of garbich cans in the street reserving parking spots ! I looked at over 50 houses, one had the LIRR out the back window, another was on a major highway. At my price range that's what they were showing me.
Well let me finish with ... it isn't right that you should have to put up with that congestion/strangers. Why not yell at Rudy the next time he comes to a town meeting in your area. Do you belong to any local neighborhood groups, hay it couldn't hurt. BTW, I vote every time even if it's for Mickey Mouse.
>In my "village" some cheepskats park on the streets because they >never went to the town hall and bought a parking sticker for the lot.
I agree that homeowners should not have to put up with lots of cars parking in front of their houses every workday. But, what gets me mad is how some Villages on Long Island (Garden City for instance), don't even allow non-village-residents to obtain permits to use their lots. And Garden City has FIVE stations within or bordering on it (Stewart Manor, Nassau Blvd., Garden City, Country Life Press and Merillon Ave. - only Merillon Ave. has non-resident parking, but it's on the Garden City Park (a separate village) side of the tracks and fills up by 6:30 AM every weekday). If it were up to me, I would force Villages such as this to build sufficient space for non-resident parking for a reasonable fee, otherwise lose train service to the stations within its borders.
If Villages such as New Hyde Park, Floral Park and Mineola can have ample non-resident parking available at their stations, why not make it mandatory for all Villages to do the same? I'm sure that many people would take advantage of it.
I'm sorry but I don't have much sympathy for those who don't like other members of the public using a public right of way.
In my neighborhood, no one has off-street parking -- its all 80 year old row houses. We compete for a limited number of spots on the street, and on Sunday night it can get hairy. So I can appreciate the frustration of fighting for spaces. But during the day, since some people drive to work, it is never a problem -- even though lots of people who don't live near the subway drive here and park and ride (since the theft rate is low). You don't hear complaints around here.
But you do hear them in Douglaston. I have a friend who lives out there, near the station. People park on his block, but since most people have driveways three-quarters of the on-street spaces are empty. And not too many people have have vistors during the workday, but I certainly have no problem parking when I take a car there on a day off. They're parking while your gone. What's the big deal?
I have more sympathy for those who live near main streets which have become popular with bars and restaurants. Those cars are there when you get home from work. Restaurants in Bay Ridge Brooklyn "valet park" cars on the street. But that's at night.
Perhaps what people who have these objections need is one of those new gated communities in the Southwest, where the only people on the street are people who paid just as much for their house as you do, and deed covents cover everything up to and including the color ties your allowed to wear. Believe it or not, I chose to live in the opposite environment -- Brooklyn NY. And believe it or not the houses here are even more expensive than the are in the area where some homeowner poured acid on my inlaw's car.
[I'm sorry but I don't have much sympathy for those who don't like other members of the public using a public right of way.]
Most likely these objections boil down to fear of the "outsider." As you mentioned elsewhere, those gated communities that are popping up in other parts of the country are tailor-made for people with these fears. Of course, it's been shown that gated communities tend to have *higher* crime rates than comparable "open" neighborhoods.
(Fear of outsiders)
Its that, but I think its more than that. Here in Brooklyn we have a battle over the use of Prospect Park, our "crown jewel." The Park Drives are only open to cars during rush hours in the summer and also at night other times, but the bike lobby wants them banned altogether. Meanwhile, the bikes charge around and nearly run over my kids. The dog walkers don't like the barbequers because some of them leave garbage, and the dog walkers are out before it is picked up. But barbequeing and having your dog off a leash are both illegal in the park. There is a summer concert series at a bandshell, which more and more people are attending, from all over the city. The neighbors complain about the noise, parking, etc, but that bandshell was there decades before any of them moved in. (BTW -- everyone pays for the park, but people from elsewhere in Brooklyn only come on summer weekends, so I think we locals have a great deal). In zoning, people say that jazz clubs are OK but they don't want rock and disco (as if we could constitutionally make that distinction). But Ed Koch got his political start, I'm told, fighting against those rowdy jazz clubs in Greenwich Village.
So people have trouble even tolerating those who are exactly like them, save for a dog or a taste in music. That's why those gated communities have all those rules in their deed restrictions. My brother in law bought a house in a new development, not a gated community, and the deed had a whole page devoted to the limited number of circumstances under which you can install a clothes line. Needless to say, these attitudes are not conductive to the use of mass transit, which perhaps explains why so few people use it outside of the New York Metro and a few other areas. I'm told fights are even breaking out on airliners now.
A libertarian is a liberal who was mugged by a coop board.
[So people have trouble even tolerating those who are exactly like them, save for a dog or a taste in music. That's why those gated communities have all those rules in their deed restrictions. My brother in law bought a house in a new development, not a gated community, and the deed had a whole page devoted to the limited number of circumstances under which you can install a clothes line. Needless to say, these attitudes are not conductive to the use of mass transit, which perhaps explains why so few people use it outside of the New York Metro and a few other areas. I'm told fights are even breaking out on airliners now.]
Attitudes might be part of it, but I'd say that the main obstacle to transit use outside its present areas is geographical - residences and jobs are just too dispersed. But then we're back to the chicken-and-egg issue. It could be that residences are so dispersed in part because of the intolerance which you mention. If everyone wants privacy, they'll have a hard time finding living arrangements conducive to transit.
>I'm sorry but I don't have much sympathy for those who don't like other members of the public using a public right of way. In my neighborhood, no one has off-street parking -- its all 80 year old row houses. We compete for a limited number of spots on the street, and on Sunday night it can get hairy.
Having lived in Ridgewood, Queens for almost 30 years, I can sympathise with you on the problem of getting a parking spot; especially on Sunday nights and also on nights before the dreaded alternate-side-of-the-street-parking.
What I was trying to say in my previous post is that, in suburban areas, such as Nassua County, if all of the villages were forced to create sufficient statrion parking areas, for a reasonable fee, for everybody, not just village residents, then a lot more people would be inclined to use the LIRR, rather than other means of transportation.
Parking garages are very expensive, and the area around the stations is usually the center of town, where land is expensive. In Northern Westchester alone the Hudson Line, they eliminated two or three stations and built a new one -- with a great big parking lot. Perhaps there are opportunities out on the island.
BTW, one of my suggestions for the next LIRR strike (and you know they'll do it just because they can) and to improve access to Lower Manhattan was to allow all the vacant lots along Broadway, Brooklyn to be used for parking, leased for a few nickels to area residents who could earn a few bucks watching the cars, and encourage Long Islanders to drive down the Jackie Robinson Parkway (Interboro for those who have moved away) and park in Bushwick. The J/Z/M doesn't go many places, but it does go to Wall and Broad. When my co-workers finished laughing hysterically, they explained that no one from Long Island would ever go to Bushwick under any circumstances.
As best I can tell, the Deer Park station on the LIRR's Ronkonkoma line was relocated when the line was electrified about 10 years ago. What looks like the original station is located right next to the bridge over Deer Park Avenue, which is the main street in town. Parking seems to be rather scarce in the area. But the Deer Park station is now located a mile or more east of the original one in an industrial area, and indeed has a large parking lot. It also looks like the Brentwood station was relocated, though not by as far a distance.
It doesn't look like there are many other relocated opportunities on Long Island. For example, parking is scarce at the stations along the Babylon line, but the area is so heavily developed that it's unlike that the stations could be moved anywhere or significant amounts of parking built.
My "village" considered a garage as a way to expand the avail. parking spots. It was voted down !
That said, I agree that more parking at LIRR stations would result in more business for transit, however, many trains are near capacity, so you'ld get another problem.
P.S. Before the GCT line opens, not too many more trains could be added to Penn. So, more parking isn't the only answer.
Mr t__:^)
Never mind more business for transit, on a recent trip to the NY metro area I noticed that station parking was about $4 a day, perhaps $2 a day for those with a monthly parking permit. If a town were to invest in a 2000 car lot they would take in at least $ 20000 a week. Even after accounting for first cost and expenses that sounds like they would make a tidy profit that could be used for town expenses. Unfortunately, I did get the impression that most town residents would rather pay higher property taxes then be "bothered" with more people parking at the station. The only exception to this was in Bridgeport, CT. I read that that city was supposed to provide thousands of free parking spaces near the train station to attract visitors to that city. Does anyone know if that ever happened?
[Unfortunately, I did get the impression that most town residents would rather pay higher property taxes then be "bothered" with more people parking at the station. The only exception to this was in Bridgeport, CT. I read that that city was supposed to provide thousands of free parking spaces near the train station to attract visitors to that city. Does anyone know if that ever happened?]
Not that I know of. There are a couple of large parking garages next to the Bridgeport station, but at least as of a year or so ago they charged for parking. If there's been any change it would have to have been quite recent.
Interesting aside: I recall hearing years ago that one of the parking structures, the one adjoining the bus station right across the street from the train station, was one of the very first such structures in the country.
Phil makes an important point. Another one -- those parking at a station are likely to do errands on the way home -- in town -- boosting local businesses. I think the Dallas system is planned like that. The Metroplex is too spread out for all but a few to walk to the train, but the stations seek to be at or near shopping malls. But a parking garage requires a lot of spaces to cover the cost of the attendent(s), a lot of land to build it on - and environmentalists consider it a NIMBY (attracts cars). The only "unsubsidized" parking garages I know of in the city are at hospitals, which of course get lots of Medicaid money.
[But a parking garage requires a lot of spaces to cover the cost of the attendent(s), a lot of land to build it on - and environmentalists consider it a NIMBY (attracts cars). The only "unsubsidized" parking garages I know of in the city are at hospitals, which of course get lots of Medicaid money.]
What about the parking garages on the basement levels of many commercial and residential buildings? I had thought that far from requiring subsidies, most of them are big profit generators.
"But a parking garage requires a lot of spaces to cover the cost of the attendent(s), a lot of land to build it on - and environmentalists consider it a NIMBY (attracts cars)."
The radical-environmentalist attitude is exactly the "all the loaf or none of it" thinking that screws up programs to increase transit ridership! I've run across more than one environmentalist that is rabidly anti-"park'n'ride" lots. Lots of people don't like to ride buses (too slow) though they don't mind riding trains. Most of the people who ride commuter trains, and who use outlying rapid transit stations on "metropolitan-area" systems like Washington, Atlanta, and San Francisco, drive to the station and wouldn't take the train if they couldn't. But pointing that out doesn't faze the rabid anti-auto crowd! Their image is an urban area without autos, and **anything** that makes continuing use of the car viable is to be opposed, even if it will increase transit ridership and significantly reduce car usage!
As someone (who?) once said, "The perfect is the enemy of the good."
You mean you have anti-auto crazies in Chicago too? And (from a prior thread) bike-crazies in Philly? I'm beginning to feel better about all this -- we are not alone. The problem is, the crazies are about the only people pushing for more transit. With friends like these....
[I've run across more than one environmentalist that is rabidly anti-"park'n'ride" lots. Lots of people don't like to ride buses (too slow) though they don't mind riding trains. Most of the people who ride commuter trains, and who use outlying rapid transit stations on "metropolitan-area" systems like Washington,
Atlanta, and San Francisco, drive to the station and wouldn't take the train if they couldn't. But pointing that out doesn't faze the rabid anti-auto crowd!]
Returning to the area that began this thread, your observations are completely on the mark with respect to Long Island. Population densities in Suffolk County and many parts of Nassau County are too low for bus service to LIRR stations to make much sense. While some commuters get rides to stations, and others walk, there usually is no alternative to driving.
First in my "village" you buy a monthly tag for the car.
Second: The station in right in the middle of downtown, so there isn't any space to put more parking lots unless you go up & the residens said no to that (I agree). There are some one story business that could be condemmed, but the village isn't going to do that for commuters. LI Bus has a depot close to the tracks, if they were moved out of town that space could be converted. One missed opportunity was a new grocery & CVS that has a large parking lot. I don't know if the town was interested in the space. Point: I'm not opposed to more parking for commuters IF it's intergrated into the fabric of the village. P.S. The village got a big movie to come into the center of town. It brings in a lot of folks, but has the locals grumbling when they want to shop, but not go to the movies (I think it was a smart thing the village did & will vote for the Mayor again).
Third: So even closer in to the city things could be done to provide space for commuters to park. If it's within Queens it becomes a political thing between the Mayor & Borough Pres., that's too bad.
Forth: Further out on the Babylon line there is space along the RxR ROW to add parking ... maybe there are some plans for it I don't know.
Mr t__:^)
Why did someone pour acid on your inlaw's car?
I agree with Peter that there is a fear-of-outsiders effect that inhibits transit. I think, however, it varies considerably in strength. I do not think it is much of an issue in the NYC area. But in places like South Jersey, Atlanta, and some parts of the Chicago area, fear of outsiders seems to be a real influence over politicians. Like any NIMBY issue, I think that it is a small vocal, active, and effective minority. They get paranoid and go nuts and politicians quickly get scared...
The Denver Post reprinted a NY Times article about the horrible traffic in Atlanta today. It said that fear of outsiders was keeping public transit from mitigating the congestion.
Someone poured acid on the car because my brother-in-law had parked in front of their house (or near their house) and walked to the station, to travel to the city. The message was don't park here, you're not welcome, say goodbye to your car's paint job. Or course, since my in-laws never drove a car worth more than $1,000, it didn't break their heart, but it did confirm their impression that most people are jerks.
Well, that's the thing about "villages" on LI ... you have LOCAL people who care about LOCAL things. Our Mayor is a Fireman, and even though he's been part of the regional group of Mayors, he still cares most about the folks who live in the village. He also cares about folks who come in to buy, and to a lessor extent the commutors who just want to park here (mainly that they don't take up all the parking so no one can come to shop). It would seem that Garden City cares even less about commutors, but the station parking isn't so close to the shopping there.
Mr t__:^)
We are already and have been for some time now been paying a tax to the MTA. There is a surcharge on utility companies operating where MTA operates, what ever compnay you use for lighting or heating and yes your phone company too Bell Atlantic
Might I add, thank goodness the MTA has its own taxes. Since transportation is the bottom of the barrel political priority in the Vampire State, it was hit pretty hard in the recession. Since the MTA has its own funding stream, it could not be cut to zero. Now if it could just find a way to get by based on those taxes, tolls, and fares -- then perhaps the remaining federal/state/local money could be devoted to the system improvements we all fantasize about.
public transportation always has and probably always will take back seat to highway funding for those stretch limos and other luxury vehicles, self interest for the politicians of course. When it comes to spending several billion dollars in todays dollars say for instance to complete the 2nd avenue subway versus the couple of million when the idea was conceived it is sheer stupidity. Highways and building those bridges and tunnels was the priority and Robert moses you might say killed the 2nd ave before it ever got off the drawing board. Okay so money alledgedly was used to fund improvements in current subway operations in the 30's and 40's,but look at the traffic on the Lexington avenue subway today! atleast the third ave el survived into the 50's. lets not forget the ambitious plan to put LIRR into GCT and the traffic that'll bring to the east side.
Let's not forget that the Second Avenue line could indeed have been built in the early to middle 1970s. Federal funding was available and in fact a few tunnel segments were dug. Unfortunately, the city's (self-induced) financial crisis put the kibosh on the line courtesy of the "Beame Shuffle." Rather than raise fares five or ten cents to cover operating deficits, mayor Abraham Beame took advantage of a legal loophole and diverted federal construction funds to cover these deficits. And the Second Avenue line never got built.
[Let's not forget that the Second Avenue line could indeed have been built in the early to middle 1970s. Federal funding was available and in fact a few tunnel segments were dug. Unfortunately, the city's (self-induced) financial crisis put the kibosh on the line courtesy of the "Beame Shuffle." Rather than raise fares five or ten cents to cover operating deficits, mayor Abraham Beame took advantage of a legal loophole and diverted federal construction funds to cover these deficits. And the Second Avenue line never got built.]
Ummmmm....
The fare was raised from 35 cents to 50 cents (a 43% jump) on September 1, 1975, 9-1/2 months after Mayor Beame cut off funding for the Second Avenue Line.
David
Blame Lindsey for bankrupting the city, running down the infrastructure (the policy started under Wagner) and eliminating the Second Avenue Subway. Lindsey pioneered the practice of buying off advocates of public works with "studies." The City Planning Commission produced a whopper of a study which promised all manner of transport improvements, school renovations, etc. -- in 1969 for Lindsey's re-election campaign. The 1969 plan. Meanwhile, his budget was diverting resources from the schools and the infrastructure into the Great Society non-profits affiliated with his political base. He also ran up the debt. When you look at how the city's spending on different categories compare with the U.S. local government average, you realize Lindsey is still the most powerful public official in the city.
[BTW, my father in law tells me there used to be an LIRR branch through Levittown, or in the vicinity. It was empty grass behind people's backyards for a lot of years, but the homeowners
pressured the state (after the takeover) to sell it off to them at pennies an acre to ensure it could never be used for transit. Shows how a small special interest can really screw the majority of they're not watching.]
That's the old Central Branch. It's tied in closely with Levittown history, as freight trains used the line to deliver construction materials when the city was built in the late 1940s. As best I can tell, much of the old right of way through Levittown is used for power lines.
You also noted (in a portion I didn't quote) that higher priced housing on Long Island tends to be located near the rail lines. While there may be some exceptions I don't know about, that does not seem to be the rule anymore. For the most part, the lines run through the downtown areas of the communities along the way, rather than through the better-off residential zones. In some cases, the areas near the LIRR lines are downright skanky - e.g. Wyandanch, Central Islip, Bellport, even Pt. Jefferson to some extent.
Peter, Larry is dating himself. It was true. Look at the towns closer in to the city.
Mr t__:^)
Larry, No disrespect taken ! You make some good counter points !
e.g. I can WALK to the LIRR, in part because my town won't let any put up a multi-family complex in the town & Nassau won't let anyone put up a bldg higher than 4 stories. It's a trade off for the towns: revenue vs. cost to provide the service & city creep into the suburbs gobbling up all the grass. But more specifically my "Village" is trying to maintain the "Village" so folks still have a reason to shop there vs. Malls. If they weren't doing this downtown would die (it's happaning elsewhere) then taxes would have to make a big jump to make up for the lost revenue, BECAUSE my Village has no land on which a Mall could be built. Bus service isn't bad there either, so folks can come to the town that way vs. a car to the Mall.
So, to get back to your point: my Village has good rail/bus service, but we're close to the city (it was built a long time ago). Further out on the Island they don't have this benifit, so cars are more essential to life, that's not good.
AND final point: near-in Nassau could use subway service (extension of existing lines) or more/improved LIRR service. If NYC goes it alone they won't get any benifit.
Mr t__:^)
>BTW, my father in law tells me there used to be an LIRR branch >through Levittown, or in the vicinity. It was empty grass behind >people's backyards for a lot of years, but the homeowners pressured >the state (after the takeover) to sell it off to them at pennies an acre >to ensure it could never be used for transit.
I believe that was a part of old Central RR ROW between Garden City and Bethpage, which, except for a portion still used west of the Meadowbrook Parkway for freight service, was abandoned just before WWII. However, there is sill a line of high tension wires, probably owned by LILCO(LIPA), which runs along most of the ROW from just east of Eisenhower Park to Bethpage, so I think it would theoretically be possible to revive it for transit.
[re former line through Levittown]
[I believe that was a part of old Central RR ROW between Garden City and Bethpage, which, except for a portion still used west of the Meadowbrook Parkway for freight service, was abandoned just before WWII.]
At least part of the line survived into the postwar years, as it was used to bring supplies to the Levittown construction site.
>At least part of the line survived into the postwar years, as it was used to bring supplies to the Levittown construction site.
You're probably right. I think it was passenger service that was discountinued about 1940.
Larry, et. al., you guys will like this:
My daughter, who is at Stonybrook, just caught the LIRR to come home. The trip is a long one: Stonybrook via diesel to Jamaica, then change platform to catch an elect back out East. I would enjoy it, but she likes taxis. I'll bet she won't WALK the 10 minutes to complete the trip.
Mr t__:^)
Every county in New York State that is has any agegncy of the Metro Transportation Authority (MTA) operating in it via NYC Buses, NYC Subway, LIRR, Metro North or MTA Bridges or Tunnels has a surchaged added to every utility bill.
Even upstate new york (Harriman) that use New Jersry Transit to pays the MTA surcharge on util bills (NJT runs the trains for MetroNorth so gets funding from the MTA for this service).
You pay the tax even if you are no where near the train line or bridge but you live in the county you pay. We pay too much taxes to begin with.
After having read the great debate re. the R142 and the assignments
thereof (I went with the 2/5 camp) - one question remains, at least
as far as I am concerned -
Has NYCT assigned or reserved unit numbers for these cars?
If so, what might they be? Since these cars are just about on our doorsteps, I must then reserve page(s) in my Master Numbers Book
as well as create records in my Car Number Series Master File.
Any information will be gratefully appreciated.
Thanks in adv.
Wayne
The prototype number is 6301. Sounds like logical place. All numbers up to 7749 are availiable and then 7750 on up can be reused as those cars will be gone by the time those #'s are again needed. The #'s on the R110A can easily be changed. Then again, maybe when the TA needs #8000 again, those cars will be gone anyway unusable.
The R-44's and 46's were supposedly renumbered to free 100 and up for the new generation cars. The test trains are only prototypes.
I thought the R44/R46's were reunumbered because the R1/9 fleet wasn't scrapped as soon as they expected (due to maintenance problems with the R44/R46's and the poor condition of the rest of the fleet.)
-Dave
That's possible, although the last R-1/9s departed from the revenue scene on March 31, 1977 and the R-44s and R-46s still had their original numbers at that time. The first R-44s arrived in the fall of 1971, by which time most of the R-1s (100-399) were already gone.
Maybe they might be hesitant to use the 6300 and 6400 series of numbers, as the R-16 wore them. Given the track record of the R-16s, it might be "deja vu all over again", as Yogi Berra once said.
Now, now, now! Don't you knock my humble, dearly-departed R16s!
True, they were rife with electrical problems and other
mechaincal woes, but I loved em anyway, despite their 'character
defects'.
It has been forty years plus since any NEW car wore number 6300,
6400 etc. I can't see using three-digit numbers again.
I'd be pleased to see the new cars wearing R16 and R17 numbers.
Wayne
Will they use 6900-6999. In the last generation of I.R.T. cars, these numbers were skipped. Supersitius?
No, not superstitious (there IS a car #1313 on the #4, and there
WAS an R-6 numbered #1313). The R-17 order was for 400 cars,
so the natural 'end' was 6899. I suppose they COULD have started
the R21 with 6900, but they chose 7050 instead because there were
more than 100 of them and the Multisections were still kicking around
(they wore 7003 to 7028).
Wayne
RE: Superstitions...
There's a PATH car #666. I ride it surprisingly freqently. I wonder if that's an omen...
-Dave
I wonder if it's named for a NJ borough or township...
Maybe they should name it for the little town of Hell, Michigan.
BTW- there once was an R-46 by that number, as well as an R-4.
There's probably an Almond Joy running round Philly with that number too.
Wayne
In Baltimore BTC had a bus numbered 1313. One Friday the Thirteenth, 1313 was assigned to block 13 on the 13 line. NOTHING bad happened that day. (According to Batimore bus lore, the operator's badge number was 1313.)
In BTC's terminology the line report was 1313, 13 Block, 13 line.
In my depot, Manhattanville, we have just recieved a New Flyer bus which I believe is a hybrid bus, half diesel and half electric. Its pretty long, maybe 45 feet and has a strange compartment in the back which I assume holds batteries or the climate control system.
Also I have been noticing that Amsteram depot has been receiving more and more Orions, does any know where they are from and are the rumors true that the entire depot will be Orions in the near future?
Right now Amsterdam has 5 orions(403 419 421).Ijust got back from there and I couldn't see the other two numbers.For more info check out http://members.aol.com/Glenn6398/Index3.html . This has current depot assignments and future plans in dept. of buses.
Mike, Can you confirm that the "New Flyer" & "Orion" additions are a just a stop gap mesure until the TA is ready to take CNG buses ?
P.S. You'll also be getting a few Orions, slightly used, from the "privates", ah that's a switch.
P.P.S. LI Bus has a substantial fleet of New Flyers
Mr t__:^)
The TA is getting used Orions from the privates? Where did you hear that? They never do that. Could it be to test front door wheelchair lfts? If they are going to get used buses from the privates, I wish they would get the handful of local MCI Classics (with back doors) from Green and Jamaica
I heard the TA was supposed to swap an Orion V with an Orion IV from Albany for some kind of testing, but not from the privates.
The Orion's in question were bought for the TA, but diverted to the "privates" temporarily. So we just broke them in for you. Thanks for the loan Virgil.
Mr t__:^)
Mr T,
Are these Orions the 5500's at GBL and 700's at QSC. I would be very happy to see the TA get buses with w/c lifts in the front door. My guess is that the New Flyer D-60's have it in the front door because it was their only choice.
Wayne
Yes, our Orions have Wheel Chair Lits at the front, had to go outside to make sure.
Mr t__:^)
Thurston,
Sorry to disappoint you, but the Orion buses you're talking about (50 in total) are not from a NYC Transit order. They're from a Washington, D.C. order that was rejected (didn't meet WMATA's specs). NYCDOT, short on buses, snapped them up and assigned them to various "privates."
However, NYCT Orion VI 6350 (hybrid diesel/electric) is from a rejected NJ Transit order (too heavy).
Were these buses part of the order that WMATA is receiving now. I heard that this was an order for 262 buses and it looks like they probably are close to the full order now. I've seen may 30 ft models as well as 40 footers at WMATA
Ooooops, there goes my credibility !
I talked to a somebody here (a VP), he said Washington cxld the last 50 Orions & had them on the lot. They made DOT a good offer & we needed them anyhow so they're ours now, sorry TA. Green Bus has the other 44 & will probally (DOT hasn't officially decided yet) get our 6 since they're not ready for CNG yet.
P.S. Our first 2 CNGs a late for some reason.
Disclaimer: I don't work for the NYC-DOT & opionins expressed here are my own & not of my employeer.
Mr (very small) t__:^)
Fernando,
I know that Amsterdam had one Orion from Kingsbridge and I would guess that they are getting more from KB. KB had Orions 402-451, but apparently they won't have them much longer.
Wayne
Since I am a big fan of original Bronx division buses with the famous bx division numbers in the back ,Iam looking for people with a common interest in this to help me persuade bus management not to paint this bus.If necessary,we will form a human chain at the paint shop so that it won't get painted.4212 RULES.Also if anyone knows the general numbers (RTS) that ran out of the old Coliseum depot in the 1980's-1990's,please let me know.Also if anyone knows any books out there on buses in n.y.c particularly the bronx please let me know.
Can't they re- paint the bus anyway and just leave the number in the lower left hand corner ?
I don't think that was an original Bronx division bus. It just happened to be assigned there first. By the time this one came out, they were no longer assigning particular series to TA or MABSTOA depots. That prcatice ended with the earliest RTS's, the 1000's (Bklyn) and 2000's (Bronx), which are now on their way out, and have been dispersed among the two divisions.
4212 and the others in that series were in the old Walnut, until it closed the first time in March of 93. Then it went to Kingsbridge, until more recently when it came to Fresh Pond. Coliseum in 1991 (from my old UTC rosters) had various 2000 series, including 2201 and other early ones, alot of the 2600's, some 4400's, 4700's, and Flxible 9000's. Four 7000's were still left at this time. Then later it got some 3500's and 3700's
Mike, Do you have your copy of the "Metro New York Area Bus Mega Calendar" ? Nice photo's of NYC, LI & Westchester buses. 98 has a lot of pre RTS GMC & Flexibales.
Mr t__:^)
Mike,
First, I'm not into the new paint scheme. I think it's probably the worst paint scheme I've ever.
4212 (1985 GMC RTS) originally operated out of the old OTS (132nd Street depot). When OTS closed 4212 went to KB. When KB closed 4212 went to WAL. Walnut closed and 4212 went back to the new KB. A couple of years ago many of the 4200's went to FP and a few went to JAM. I'm from the Bronx, KB has always been my favorite OA depot.
As far as I could remember COL never had any of the MABSTOA 4100/4200's.
Coliseum (RTS's) in the 1980/90's.
It's original RTS (1981) were 2263-2280, PA2529-PA2579. Soon after the Grumman 870's returned to service NYCTA started amking Grumman and RTS depots. COL became a Grumman depot and all of it's RTS were transferred to KB and it rec'd all of the Grummans from KB. When the Grumman 870's were withdrawn from service. COL rec'd most of the 1982 RTS from HUD PA2580-PA2640 (Approx). Most of these 25/2600 stayed at COL until it closed. In 1986 COL received new RTS's - #4455-4507. Later sveral 4700's came from MC Hale depot. COL closed soon afterward when the new KB opened.
I hope this explains it...
Wayne
Jamaica Depot has 2 express bus routes, X63 and X64. Both routes combined run 11 buses a day. Ulmer Park Depot has a Completely new fleet of these new Express style buses which are very comfortable and attractive. (9200 and 9300 series) Ulmer Park runs about 60+ of these buses a day on 4 routes X25,27,28,29, up to 8:00pm leaving from the city and up to 12:00pm leaving from brooklyn. The majority of X63 and 64 buses from queens are old 1700 series buses and sometimes leave passengers to ride on hard seat buses because of breakdowns, etc... the Jamaica Express' are very crowded sometimes leaving 5 people standing on average (each bus) in the morining and about 4 standing in the PM. Our ridership is growing and we need more efficient buses. If we are paying $3.00, we should deserve to ride in comfort, where Ulmer Park Depot customers are riding in pleasure, where ridership has show to decrease, bus after bus, with not much spacing, and sometimes 4 people on 1 bus, which is made for 39. Is it because MTA us selfish, or is it because 98% of Jamaica Express' riders are Black, and 98% of Ulmer Parks riders are white? Is this a race issue???
Why is it that all other depots that operate Express Bus Service start earliar, end later, and have decent buses, where the Jamaica Depot does not?? When our ridership is proven, effecient, but not enough to make the MTA give us more buses? Sounds like a race issue, because Jamaica Depot is the only depot who serves a Dominant Black Community.....Facts are there. MTA wake up..
New coach express buses are arriving in Staten Island because those routes are quite long. See posts RE: MCI 1861, 1862, etc. This will allow the TA to retire the 1700's from Jamaica & elsewhere and you will have a much better express bus fleet. While maybe there is only 4 people on an Ulmer Park express bus, is it 4 people where it enters Manhattan from the Battery Tunnel or is it 4 people in midtown at the end of the route? Express bus ridership is growing due to the decrease in fare and as additional buses come in, service can be increased.
Right. As I mentioned on the 1861 thread, Staten island is supposed to replace all the RTS's, icluding the 9000's with MCI's and Orions. So first the 3800's will be spread out bumping off the remaining 17&1800's pretty soon, in this incoming order. Then, the 9250-9284 will be spread out.
For a long time, Ulmer Park wasn't getting anything new. it was only on that last order that they got 9000 expresses and locals.
it may be longer than you think. a strike by a vendor will cause a delay in the delivery of mci buses to staten island.
It's possible that the poor express bus service from Jamaica Depot reflects the alternatives available from the area. Jamaica has LIRR service, with subway-like frequencies during rush hours, as well as subway service on the E and J/Z lines. Under these cricumstances two express routes might be enough, though more (and newer) equipment would seem appropriate.
Yes, Jamaica Depot does have lot's of old X-buses, and only 5 9000's, but QV has no x-buses newer than the 1700/1800's. I hope both will get better fleets soon. I'm sure it will be in the form of 3800's and they are somewhat battered now.
Express bus service cost (looses) more to provide then local, so matbe someone way up there is hoping it will die a slow death ? It now looses even more due to the reduction in the fare (3.50 to 3.00).
Mr t__:^)
Don't show your paranoia by turning everything into a race matter. Ulmer Park and the Staten Island depots have had their share of ratty express buses over the years. The only reason that SI received the express Orions back in 1993 was due to the fact that the 1970's era buses in service then were taken out of service after one broke apart on the Gowanus expressway. I am sure that once all the MCI coach buses arrive on SI our Queens neighbors will receive better equipment for their express runs. As for Queens schedules, the TA is notoriously slow to respond to ridership changes. To this day many Staten Island express runs (which are much longer than the Queens runs) have up to 10 standees. So don't feel too bad.
Listen, New York isn't the only place with ratty buses. In Baltimore, the MTA puts the new equipment (NABI's & newest FLX's) on the base blocks. The rush hour and midday blocks get 8400 & 8500's on the rush (includes Expresses) and 86, 87 & 88 on the mids. 8600's tend to go on the school trippers/lines(I suspect to segregate the juvenile delinquent schoolkids from the paying customers.).
Anyway, the MTA still follows the old company's policy: new stuff on the base blocks, the older cars for rush hours. They did it with streetcars, the MTA still does it with buses.
In the ratty dept: the 84's are running with blocks in the air bags and blown turbos. The 85 through 88's have many buses with blocks in the air bags. On Baltimore's lousy streets, they find every little bump in the streets. Ride an express, and you get assaulted by bangs and bounces every few feet. Oh, yes - the A.C. doesn't work on a third of the older stuff.
Of course, the rail lines (subway and Light Rail) give the best ride!!
It's everywhere! SEPTA does the same thing here in Phila, except that 13-year old Volvo articulateds get out on base runs every day since certain lines call for the artics on their runs. They're a little better since their recent mini-overhaul, but these buses are not great. Many of them leak like sieves, and the water seems to store up and get riders when they least expect it (such as on turns). I don't think any one of them has an "accordion" without holes in it somewhere.
At least their exhaust problem seems to have been corrected. The buses have underfloor engines in the rear of the front section (they're "pullers", driven by the middle axle, as opposed to "pushers", which have the traditional rear engine mount and are driven by the rear axle). Often, the exhaust would vent thru the body, and you could smell it as well as see it in extreme cases. Since my line uses the Volvos extensively, I would often come home and my wife could tell as soon as I walked in the door whether I was on an artic. I also was on an AM trip on the Schuylkill Expressway, on a rare morning when traffic was moving well, and the bus started to smoke. Someone brought this to the attention of the driver. He casually opened the front door and continued driving. The breeze vented the smoke, and we continued our trip to Center City.
Despite the bad things heard about Neoplans, at least SEPTA's are kept in fair to good condition. The RTS's, now retired, were another matter altogether, and many of them developed step-well separation as well as incessant rattles in their later years. The only bad thing about the Neoplans is the jerky ride, especially in the older (8000 numbers) ones - it is nearly impossible to stand on these, and sitting isn't easy either. The later ones (3000 numbers) are a little better, but they still shift hard. The Ikarus/NABI's ride fine, but boy are they noisy!
One of the things that our older FLX's also have is that when it rains, it rains inside, too. Our NABI's (9500 & 9600 Artics amd 9700 40 footers) don't seem too noisy, which may be because they have Cummins engines instead of GMD's.
The operating divisions are all trying modifications to the FLX's. Kirk division is fitting engine doors with 4 vents. (Cooling problems?) Bush division is refitting rears with new style (LED) stop/tail/turn/backup lights in the new style mounts. The old corner opening is relplaced by new sheet metal/plastic. Haven't seen any, but the info is from a very reliable source. Don't know what the other two divisions Eastern and Northwest are doing yet.
However, whatever they do, the bounce, bang and drip stuff will still be there.
I guess "junk" is relative. Here in Phila, the maintenance folks swore by the RTS's and everyone else swore at them. Riders and drivers seem to like Neoplans but maintenance would prefer to get rid of them.
Flxibles do well on NJ Transit, Pittsburgh and Portland OR. DC gave up on them after a couple of orders. SEPTA wouldn't allow Flxible to bid when it went out for the 400-bus order in '96, which went to Ikarus. It seems Flxible is either loved or hated, much as AM General was in the late 70's. I rode AMG's in DC that were falling apart and others in Portland that were in great shape (and that Tri-Met reluctantly retired several years ago, mainly because of T-M's push to make its fleet accessible, and it still isn't fully accessible yet, with the Ikarus artics and a small group of 35-foot Flx new looks from the '70-'72 era). Go figure.
It would seem that TODAY this site should be called Sub/Bus-Talk
Thanks Dave for this forum !
Mr t__:^)
And yesterday it was AirporTalk. :-)
-Dave
Yep & it was partly MY fault, sorry about that ! I'm just a plane-to-bus kind of guy.
Mr t__:^)
You took the words right out of my mouth. BTW, I finally got done downloading all those new R-10 photos, along with some R-32 and R-38 pics. You da maannnnn!!
A Silly Question: When the TA wants to move cars from the regular IRT lines to the Flushing, HOW DO THEY GET THERE??? Since there is no direct connection between them, do they ship them, or do they go around and around the system until they get there?? Just curious....
Easy. There's a connection just (system) north of Queensboro Plaza, between the Astoria Line (now served by the [N]) and the Flushing Line (now served by the [7]). Remember, IRT cars can operate on BMT/IND tracks, but not the other way around!
See the track map on this site for a graphic display.
Sometimes if you are lucky you can see these light moves in progress, with IRT cars traveling on the Broadway (BMT) late at night.
Speaking of which, how do IRT ttrains get to the IND/BMT or vice versa? the only direct link that I see is the queensboro plaza switch, connecting the 7 to the N/R but the 7 doesn't connect to anything else!!!
There was a discussion about this a month or two ago. I don't remember all the connections, but someone said on of the uptown yards connect Divsion A and B tracks.
There are three IRT/B Division connections beside the one at Queensboro Plaza:
Bedford Park Yard - 4 and D
207th Street Yard - 1/9 and A
Linden Shops - 3 and L (no third rail).
See the Subway Faq! :-)
-Dave
I know that the Flushing and Astoria lines(or I think) were jointly operated by the IRT and BMT, but didn't anyone in it's history as the IRT think that it might be worth while to build a line to Queens? When the IRT opened in Brooklyn, that #3 sure looks like a candidate to Spring Creek and Howard Beach to me. Did the local yokels of the time get a case of NIMBYism( was it NIMBYism against the IRT for some strange reason?).
[didn't anyone in it's history as the IRT think that it might be worth while to build a line to Queens? When the IRT opened in Brooklyn, that #3 sure looks like a candidate to Spring Creek and Howard Beach to me. Did the local yokels of the time get a case of
NIMBYism( was it NIMBYism against the IRT for some strange reason?)]
I doubt if there were enough people living in those parts of Queens at the time to have made subway service worthwhile.
OK, how about a totally new line. Why wasn't there a #8(and don't tell me the GCS is the #8 or I'll go nuts!).
When most of the subways were under construction, most of Queens was trees and farms. The dual contracts called for subways to the existing settlements (Flushing, Jamaica, Long Island City, and Astoria) and led to north-west Queens being developed at a Brooklyn-like density. But most of Queens east of the Van Wyck was built post-war WWII, around highways, at suburban densities. The IRT was bankrupt by then.
The Dual Contracts were signed in 1913 between NYC and the two private subway companies, the IRT and BRT (later the BMT). The new routes were divided between the two companies to make best use of Manhattan trunk lines and give each company inroads into future new markets in areas that were still sparsely populated (the north Bronx, most of Queens, the southeast end of Brooklyn).
The IRT maintained its monopoly in the Bronx and Manhattan north of 60th Street. The BRT maintained its dominance in Brooklyn and adjacent Queens neighborhoods that were served by BRT elevated extensions. And then to assuage each company:
-BRT got a key trunk line along Broadway, Manhattan, from Whitehall Street to Times Square, continuing to the 60th Street Tunnel.
-IRT got its two-branch Brooklyn extension, allowing trains to continue beyond the 1908 terminal at the Atlantic Ave. LIRR Station.
-IRT and BRT were given joint operating rights on the two new Queens elevated branches to Astoria and Corona (later Flushing). But because these lines were built to IRT dimensions, BRT had to get by using its older wooden elevated cars in a shuttle service to Queensboro Plaza, where connection could be made to through subway trains that terminated there. IRT was able to have through service from Astoria and Flushing to Manhattan (using both the Steinway Tunnel and long-gone tracks on the 59th Street Bridge to connected to the 2d Ave. el). BTW, the current BMT Astoria/IRT Flushing service pattern was instituted in 1949.
And finally, for those of you who read my low level platforms post of a few minutes ago, I am embarassed to say that I misspelled my first name! No excuses!
Queens was still sparsely developed when the IND Queens line was built. Compared to the 6th Ave. line, the Queens line was a piece of cake. Heck, they could have built a six-track line under Queens Blvd., as wide as that thoroughfare is. I often wonder how Queens would look today if all those Second System lines had been built.
[Why wasn't there a #8(and don't tell me the GCS is the #8
or I'll go nuts!).]
The 8 designation was last used for the Bronx portions of the Third Avenue El, closed in the early 1970s. More recently, there were discussions about using it for the rush-hour expresses on the 6 line. I don't know what if anything has come of that idea.
The #8 designation for the 3rd Ave. el was used only on maps; it never appeared on the trains themselves. R-12s which ran on the el were marked, "Shuttle".
Wasn't #9 printed (or screened) for Dyre Avenue in the original 1940s IRT Division route number setup (on the R-12s, R-14s, and R-15s)? The flyover at East 180th Street was open by the time the R-17s arrived, so there might not have been need for "9-Dyre Avenue" on those and later cars.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Yes. I have a cloth version of the IRT Front Route sign which has 9-Dyre Ave on there. It also has 8-Third Ave.!!!
Charles Fiori writes, 'I have a cloth version of the IRT Front Route sign which has 9-Dyre Ave on there. It also has 8-Third Ave.!!!'
That would be interesting to date-- I thought the original sign curtains on the R-12/14/15s had 7-Flushing, 8-Astoria (same as the BMT, curiously), 9-Dyre Avenue. Maybe only the R-12 contract came that way, since the Astoria/Flushing realignment to BMT- and IRT-only operation would have made the 8-Astoria redundant.
Several people have mentioned more recent IRT signs with numbers up to 13 or 14--what would the 10 and up routes have been?
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
I can fill in only a couple of blanks here:
This is according to a previous post, so just passing info along...
The unused routes on R62 signs are as follows:
8 10 for Lexington Avenue
12 13 for 7th Avenue
11 for Flushing
Someone mentioned that 8 was going to
be used in place of the Diamond 6
for the Pelham Express; my guess is that 11 would be another name for the Flushing Express.
As for 10, 12 and 13, I can't think of any possible uses
for them, unless they're thinking of instutiting a rush-hour Jerome Avenue express and using 10 for that.
From what I've long heard, the 10 was the diamond 5 Bronx thru-express, the 12 may have been the former 2 to New Lots, and the 13 the former 3 to Flatbush. There was another number that would have been the former 4 to Flatbush. That may have been 14 or 15, but I forget.
Peter you are right,there was a number 8 designation for the old 3rd ave El in the Bronx.It was replaced way back in the 70's with bus service. I beleive the revenue just wasn't there to support a subway and the NYCTA thought it would make more economic sense to tear it down.The thing I remember most was that from the ground up to the station platform it was higher than the 7 or the RR(now the N line).
Does anyone know what the height of those stations were?Lastly I beleve that I rode on R-10, Is that the equipment they used on that line back in 1973?
With regard to the Bronx portion of the 3rd Ave. elevated from 149th Street to Gun Hill Road:
(1) The original structure was built between 1887 and 1901 (between 149th and Fordham Road). Under the Dual Contracts, in 1915, the original structure was rebuilt with a middle express track. A two track extension was built approx. 1920 from Fordham Road, along Webster Ave., to Gun Hill Road, connecting with the subway extension at White Plains Road. A new, two level station, still standing, was built at Gun Hill & White Plains Roads. Today, the #2 and #5 trains still use the upper level.
I don't believe the stations were any higher above ground than any other typical NYC elevated route. The exception might be along Webster Ave., where the structure was high above the ground at the north end (partly to cross over Mosholu Parkway). The Gun Hill Road station is also fairly high, particularly the upper level platform.
(2) R10s, being IND equipment, could never use the 3rd Ave. el. You were riding the similar looking R12 cars, which began their lives on the Flushing Line in 1948. These cars provided 3rd Ave el service during its last years of operation.
As I mentioned in a previous post, the #8 designation for the Bronx remnant of the 3rd Ave. el was used only on maps. The R-12s which ran there were marked, "Shuttle". During its last years, the oldest equipment on the IRT ended up on that line, including a few remaining Lo-Vs as well as the World's Fair Lo-Vs.
I'm willing to bet that after the 3rd Ave. el closed, the R-12s never ran in solid trains again.
Having just returned from a short visit to Atlanta (via Amtrak, of course!), I thought it might be interesting to post a few comments about the MARTA system..
First, the initial impression is of a VERY clean and well run system (carpeting on the floors of the trains!). It seems they looked at NY and learned a lot from from the MTAs omissions/mistakes..i.e. some busses terminate inside the fare zone at train stations, eliminating the need for transfers,etc). They offer there a weekend pass for $8 thats good on Fri-Sun...very welcome for the visitor/natives. The line that runs directly to the Airport runs cars that have space for luggage! (passengers arriving in Atl actually use the system..not just employees!).
One funny thing is that some trains have OPTO, some don't, with the door opener working in the same cab as the driver, although it seemed that some were being trained...Stops are announced automatically, except when a line is being worked on, then announcements are VERY clear as to the shuttle service being offered, etc..People on platforms with bullhorns etc, helping out when one track op. is being used (i.e. "This is a northbound train...northbound..")
One problem I had was that all the passes are paper, and so the weekends tend to de-magnitize, although there is always someone around to zap you through the turnstiles,which by the way, actually to have designed for human beings!!
If anyone else has been to Atl, and has comments, please do so... ALSO, the web address for MARTA is itsmarta.com ....
MARTA is very nice system. The trains also reach go very fast at some points. Once I was driving north on I-75/85 and I paced a MARTA train at 57 MPH. I'm sure it was capable of more speed.
My job looked at the Computerized Maintenance Management System MARTA uses for their buildings and their fleet. Pretty kewl system, the barcodes on the buses are read as they leave the depot and such.
Most Bostonians and transit fans know about the MBTA's (the "T")Green line from Riverside into Boston, known as the Highland Branch. Few know that this branch was originally part of the Boston & Albany later NYC) commuter line dating back to 1848. By the 1890's the route ran from Riverside to Woodland, Waban, Cook Street, Newton Highlands, Newton Center, Chestnut Hill, Beaconsfield, Brookline Hills, Brookline, Longwood, Huntington Ave./Trinity Place and South Station. Additional stations, such as Reservoir and Eliot, were added over the years.
The B&A took control of the Highland Branch from the Boston & Worcester in 1883. The last commuter run ended in May 1958 and the T took over in July 1959, after rebuilding the line for trolly (PCC) useage. Operations on the Highland Branch were discontinued at Huntington Ave./Trinity Place and the line connected with the downtown subway at Park St.
The beautiful station at Newton Center was originally built in 1887 for the B&A.
There has been little written (at least, what I've found) onthe B&A except for mention in books on the NYC. Very recently, though, Robert Willoughby Jones authored a two volume set on the B&A, titled "Boston & Albany, The New York Central in New England."
The photography in this book is GORGEOUS, some of the best I have ever seen published in books. Almost all of it is in color and the print quality is high, very sharp and good color rendition. The text is very good too but not so much as to bore the reader with minutia. Volume 1 covers the railroad from Boston to Worcester and Volume 2, from Worcester to Albany. I can't recommend thses volumes highly enough.
Is (or was) there some sort of connection between the track you reference here and the Needham Heights commuter rail line?
Yes - Service to Needham via the Highland Branch and various loops were operated through the years. One of the few times where the B&A and NH cooperated. The Needham line extended right up to Cook St. into the 70s. I don't visit that area often anymore so I don't know what's left today
I know that they run extras on the 4 after Yankee Games but do they do it on the D??
I think so, after waiting 2.5 hrs for Wednesday game, I stayed to the end. A D made up of R68-A's with the signs marked as Bedford Park and West 4th Street was waiting in station (Holding Lights). No one had changed the cars end signs from B just the side roll signs and the 1st and last car.
We left 161st express to 145 then express to 59th (connected with a local A), then entered 34th Street on the local track but skipped the local stops to West 4th where the train (on local track) was discharged and walked by the conductor.
My question was why the lineup on the local track south of 34th street? Where is the train going after terminating at West 4th (lower level).
Whenever the yankees play at home, at night, there are 2 extra trains supplied on the 'D' line. Usually, because the spare train factor on the 'D' line is so small, the extra trains must come from the 5 (or so) 'B' trains which lay up in Concourse yard over night. After discharging customers at W4 St. the train will run light to Concourse Yd. or Stillwell Yd. depending on the needs of service.
The extras being crossed from local to express at 34 St. is a supervisory discretionary decision. Actually, it is more efficient doing it that way, because if it is crossed over north of W.4 St., it must deal with those over cautious-excessively-slow-down-the railroad wheel detectors, exactly the same as those which slow down the M/N & R trains north of Pacific St. (southbound direction) when the N crosses over from the local to express. The specials, if needed to return to CC Yd., go light from W.4 to Second Ave., then go light uptown.
>>The specials, if needed to return to CC Yd., go light from W.4 to Second Ave., then go light uptown.
Thanks Bill, (and Thurston) that is what I was looking for, where they turn after West4th and why on the local track.
Does anyone know where to find toy #7 train cars? or a toy subway train that could be repainted to look like one...thanks.
For scale models, try the Red Caboose in New York. Their address and phone number may be found in any issue of Model Railroader magazine.
ok here it goes does any 1 relize how very short handed the #7 line is
they are missing the last 40 westinghouse cars 9484-9523 why is this like that we need all we can get especialy for the mets and the u s open crowds dont you think? also who else has heard about the R62AS coming over here i would like to know which exact line and how many will the #7 line get also any more talk about the 6 or 8 car cuts again please respond a s a p if you can. thank you for your time and patience in this matter also has any body seen the G E sets and Westinghousre cars mixed alot i have bye Thomas Maley #7 line buff
I've got a few hours to kill and was wondering if anyone could tell me some interesting stuff to see on the MTA subway, preferable in Manhattan? Underground yards, whatever...something out of the ordinary & interesting. (I've already ridden around the City Hall loop.)
[I've got a few hours to kill and was wondering if anyone could tell me some interesting stuff to see on the MTA subway, preferable in Manhattan? Underground yards, whatever...something out of the ordinary & interesting. (I've already ridden around the City Hall loop.)]
Just a few ideas:
1. The Times Square station, with all its corridors and stairways.
2. Abandoned platforms at Chambers Street on the J/M/Z.
3. The viaduct over 125th Street on the 1/9.
4. The old-fashinoned stationhouse and narrow platforms at 72nd Street on the 1/2/3/9.
5. The endless, gloomy transfer between the J/M/Z and the N/R at Canal Street.
6. Venturing just outside Manhattan, the lines over the Manhattan and Williamsburg Bridges.
Add to Peter's list:
- Essex St, you can see the remn
ants of what used to be a very busy trolley terminal.
- South Ferry, Architecturally restored very nicely, and you can "peek" into the inner loop platform, closed since 1979. (It's across 2 tracks but if you stand at the right angle to some of the openings in the tunnel, you can see it a bit
- Ride the #6 between 14th & 23rd heading south and see the abandoned 18th ST station. Ride the #1 between 96th and 86th, also south, and see the abandonded 91st St Station.
--Mark
Stay on the same southbound 6 and you'll see the abandoned Worth St. station just before Brooklyn Bridge.
If you like a railfan's view, you could check out the numerous flying junctions on the IND. Many IND stations have full-length mezzanines, although most have sections which are closed off. The entire IND division is a good example of overbuilding.
Then there's the maze of passageways at Fulton St./Broadway-Nassau Sts.
BTW, what did you think of City Hall staiton?
When I rode around the City Hall loop (I guess it was back in May?
can't remember), it seemed almost surreal. Very eerie. I had seem
pictures of the station in Benson Bobrick's book (Labyrinths of Iron)
a long time ago, and on this site, and to actually ride through the
station was incredible. The chandeliers, the walls, platform itself...
it was like time just stood still for decades.
The motorman was friendly...after we went thru, he asked if I was a
railfan, and when I replied in the affirmative he was quite chatty.
It was nice!
P.P.S. to Mark & Peter's comments, which were good !
Take the 1/9 North, go OUTSIDE for one stop at 125th, see the underground yard after 145th St, then continue to 168th where you can switch for free to IND (and joy the elevator from IRT to IND level ... I think it's two or three stories).
Also a quick outside via the #7 to Queensplaza, then the N back to Manhattan.
Enjoy, Mr t__:^)
Begin with the uptown E train at the World Trade Center station. Most the cars are R32s, so you can ride the front end and look out the window. You will see:
-an unsual maze of tracks where the A and C join the E between Chambers St/WTC (an unusual double length station) and Canal St.
-the flying junction at W 4th St where you might see an uptown F train on your right just before entering the station.
-the unusual double length 42d St. Station. Get off, look around, and take another uptown E later on. It's linked to the entire Times Square complex by underground passageway.
-50th St., where the E dips below the A and C before turning right under 53d St.
-the large flying junction with the F train just before 5th Ave. Station.
Continue into Queens.....and you'll see:
-a long express stretch between Queens Plaza and Roosevelt Ave. using a street alignment different from the local G and R trains.
-the still new stations at Jamaica/Van Wyck, Sutphin Blvd, and Jamaica Center.
At Jamaica Center go downstairs and return to Manhattan on the J train. That's another unusual and entertaining trip. I will discuss it in a future posting..this one is getting too long!
Board J train at Parsons/Jamaica Center lower level platform. You are on a new (by NY standards) stretch of subway built in 1988. After the second stop (Sutphin) you ascend to the BMT Jamaica Ave. elevated structure, beginning at 121st St. From here to Cypress Hills you are travelling a 1917 vintage el that was built under the dual contracts. It is an eastward extension of the BMT's old Broadway elevated. It is a two track route with space for a third track that was never installed, save for tail tracks at 111th Street. At 102d Street you pass over the old LIRR Rockaway Beach r.o.w. At Cypress Hills and Crescent, two stunning 90 degree turns make the train screech even at slow speeds.
From Crescent Street to Broadway Junction/East NY, you are a two track el dating from 1893, which was never rebuilt under the dual contracts. It is the oldest, unrebuilt portion of rapid transit in New York. At Broadway Junction you pass through a spectacular elevated train junction, perhaps the best anywhere. Continuing towards Manhattan along Broadway, you are on one of Brooklyn's original el routes (portions were built in 1885 and 1888), that was rebuilt in 1916 under the Dual Contracts with a third middle track and sufficient capacity to carry steel subway cars. At Myrtle Ave. you pass under the old Myrtle el route, with another nice junction to your right that M trains use today.
Approaching the Williamsburgh Bridge, the tracks jog right and left leading onto a high approach to the center of the bridge. This is best viewed on a sunny, clear morning with sun shining from the east (rear). The bridge trip itself is worth ten times the fare. When you reach Manhattan and enter the tunnel, the unique Essex Street Station features an old BMT trolley terminal on the south side that was last used in 1948.
The reamining Manhattan stations (except Bowery) - Canal, Chambers, Fulton, and Broad, are all unique in their own ways. More on this later!
Today might be a VERY interesting day to ride the [2]. It is running "Superexpress" in upper Manhattan due to the 'Million Youth March.' Nonstop from 96th Street to 3rd Ave/149th Street in the Bronx.
As the Manhattan-bound J/M/Z turns to the right after Marcy Street, getting into position for the Williamsburg Bridge approaches, a short stub track can be seen continuing straight ahead. This is the only remaining remnant of a long-vanished branch that continued along Broadway to the East River ferry landing.
Another interesting sight on the line is at Myrtle Avenue. South of the station, supports for the abandoned Myrtle El continue for a block or so. It's interesting to ponder why these were left in place, considering that all Manhattan structures of the Third Avenue El vanished shortly after its shutdown in 1955.
At the Williamsburgh Bridge, just west (south operationally) of Marcy Avenue, there is also an old interlocking tower that controlled the junction with the old tracks to the Broadway Ferry landing. From 1888 until 1908 all trains ended at the ferry. In 1908 bridge service started.; the ferry branch became a shuttle sevice only. The shuttle stopped running in 1916; the tracks remained until 1940 for equipment layups.
At Myrtle Avenue the remnant of the old elevated route is still there to carry power cables for the M line service between Broadway and Metropolitan Ave.
Don't forget to take a leisurely ride on the "L" train from 8th Avenue
and 14th Street out to Olde Canarsie. Watch for a Slant R40 and let
your kid watch out the front with you. Underground, elevated, surface,
they have it all (with LOTS of curves) - plus the prettiest mosaics in the system.
All aboard the "L" train!
Wayne
The Lexinton Avenue subway is over congested with people and trains. Dring rush hours the express and local are both quick lines but when you get in the tunnels it is like the B.Q.E when there is an accident. The second avenue subway would be the answer but would the MTA be able to build the line without the rasing the price. Now will the MTA follow the west side idea and build and BMT/IND line or another IRT line. My line is like the 7 line it will be an IRT/IND/BMT line. It has 5 branches 2 local 2 express and 1 shuttle. The 8 Train will go from Gun Hill Road (Webster Avenue) to Utica Avenue (Bergan Street). The 14 local will start from 125 Street (Second Avenue) and end on Main Street (Tottenwille Staten Island) The 10 Express will go from Baychester Avenue (East 233 Street) to Beach Channel Drive (Beach Channel Drive) The 12 Train will go from the Bay Plaza Mall (Bartow Avenue) to Cross Bay Blvd (Cross Bay Blvd) The Shuttle train (S1 Line) will go from Broadway-East New York going through the all of the J.F.K terminals back to Broadway-East New York. If you want more info just write back.
Chris, how would you fund this massive project? Particularly the part to Tottenville all the way out to Staten Island.
I want to tell everyone that my name is being changed to Subway Pinta
Beats highway Pinta.
Can anyone give me a Detailed description of the 145th street station on the #3? I know it is a short station but would like to know more and it is a hassle to get there because of the construction....so if anyone could help that would be great! thanks
Susan,
The 145th St. station is only about 4 or 5 cars long, and before 1958 was used only for local trains. They generally ran from 145th St. to South Ferry, and the station was closed at night with no bus transfer available. The uptown side has always been and still is an exit only, with no crossover/under to the other side.
When I first started exploring the subways (about 1962), an uptown 3 scheduled to return downtown switched to the downtown platform and stopped there before returning downtown. It was therefore possible to ride back downtown without payment of extra fare. If the train was headed for the yard, it stopped at the uptown side, and it was necessary to get off and exit to the street.
Frankly I'm surprised that the station is still in use at all, what with the much larger 148 St-Lenox Terminal station built within the confines of the old yard. Incidentally, the entrance to the above is actually at 149th St and Powell Blvd (7th Av).
Bob Sklar
These are two stations that really needn't exist.
I've been on that stretch of subway and wonder why it's still there. It's a ten-second ride to Lenox Terminal(not really).
!3th St. on the El in Philly doesn't need to be there either. It's two blocks from the station on either side, an impediment to trains sailing to 11th or 15th St. and not especially valid.
The only reasons it's there is because SEPTA's HQ is right overhead and the terminal for the trolley is right underneath.
Otherwise, not the busiest station and certainly an impediment to progress. There is an El stop on both side of City Hall. It's not that big.
As I recall, 13th & Market in Philly was under Reading Terminal and directly connected via an underground walkway. It is also connected to the Juniper St. terminal of the Green Line (Subway-Surface Trolleys). It's much easier to switch between trolley and subway at 13th, because at 15th Street you must go down and up between the platforms.
As for 145th and Lenox, that was a terminal station from 1904 until 1968, when the current 148th/Lenox station opened. Since it's located at major Harlem intersection, removing the station would inconvenience many customers who are transit dependent.
What used to be Reading Terminal. It's been closed for many, many, many moons. It's only being re-done as an extension of the new Hard Rock Cafe next door, as an extension of the Pennsylvania Convention Center behind it and the Market East RR station below and to the left.
It isn't connected to it anymore.
As for the trolley connections, it is a lot easier to take the underpass at 13th. But sometimes those nighttime dwell times(15-20 minutes!) can leave you in a steam.
BTW, re-construction of the Market Street el has been pushed back to early '99. Ride the el as it is now, won't be there forever.
Is the old Reading terminal in any way open or visible to the public? Or is it being taken apart by its next door neighbors?
The terminal isn't even fit to be walked by on the street, let alone visited inside.
It's been under construction ever since the Hard Rock opened and is supposed to be an annex of the convention center.
Sorry, not open to the public.
Actually, the former trainshed portion of the Terminal has been beautifully restored and is part of the Convention Center. One can usually sneak a peek when a public event is taking place at the Center.
The former Headhouse and office building, part of which is now the Hard Rock Cafe, is under restoration. The office floors will become an extension of the Marriott Hotel across 12th St and more shops will join the Hard Rock at street level. SEPTA's Market East station will regain street level entrance here also. The intent is to have this as the main entrance to the Convention Center from Market St, the same way many of us entered the Terminal to catch a train up until '84.
Hello , My name is Thomas Maley. I live right near the #7line in Jjackson Heights I have noticed that it seems that the #7line has gotten quite short handed since the last 40 westing house cars are on the #6line (9484-9523 and 9524-9557) does any one know why this is ? any way will these last 40 cars return to the #7line any time soon they are needed here also Im hearing they might start cuts again I think like 6 or 8 cars again . the latest rumor ive heard is the #7line might get the R62A cars from the#1 line soon is this true can some one leave me a e mail at the earliest convience in this matter ? thank you . Thomas Maley #7 line Buff
I really don't know if they'll get those cars back. When they were short cars back in 1992-3,they borrowed cars from I.R.T. Lexington Ave service.The cars were 9294-9305.There were some 9100's as well.They ran these cars even though they weren't supposed to be mixed with the single unit R33.Idon't know about R62A'S going to the 7 line.Starting in November,the 7 line will have more frequent weekend service(4 minute headway during the afternoon on saturday and 5 minutes on sunday)As a result of this,they will probably run 8 car trains on weekeds.I do recall cars 9484-9505 on the 7 around 1996 for a brief period
Only problem Thomas is that you didn't leave your e-mail address.
Officially, the NYCT permits bicycles only on the N train from Lexington Ave to Queensboro Plaza. Unofficially, it's open season for bike riders on any line at any time. I recently observed two youths with their bikes on a Queens-bound E train during the PM rush-hour. They blocked seats and the aisle. I've also recently seen 'kids', easily in their 20s, riding their bikes on the W4th St. platform, unchallanged. The LIRR does not permit bicycles on Peak trains and on Off-Peak trains ONLY with a permit which must be purchased in advance. Does anyone else feel, like I do, that unrestricted transporting of bicycles represents a real danger to the other customers.
I feel that transporting any object which impedes safe movement in the subway should be banned any time especially since who knows when an emergency will arise. Bicycles and baby carriages seem so harmless but they block free movement within subway cars and stairwells. there was a time many years ago when carriages HAD to be folded before entry into the system. bicycles and large packages were virtually banned. MTA wants to look like the good guy by allowing tranport of almost anything to encourage increased use of its system however this is not the situation. Baby carriages caught in subway doors or falling down stairs usually with children in them.
Wake up! Bicycles are a legit transit mode. I must say I find it ironic to cite BART as at the head of the curve, but for once they are. Bicycles are now generally permitted except on specific routes during rush. The blackout times are published in the timetable/rider guide so its clear to all. The other rules are: 1. no bikes in lead car, 2. do not block doors, 3. when in doubt yield. I might note that the Sacramento Light Rail system has a 2 bike per train limit--they only run two-car sets. As with any other object--a hand truck for example with merchandise or your personal property, the first principle is be reasonable. clearly a bike on the Lex local at rush hour is insane but when I lived at Tompkins Sq Pk I used to sometimes go to SI to ride with an assist from IRT AT OFF hours. Much saner than packing bike on car.
Good point, thanks for the input.
[Officially, the NYCT permits bicycles only on the N train from Lexington Ave to Queensboro Plaza. Unofficially, it's open season for bike riders on any line at any time.]
Why just on the N?
[I recently observed two youths with their bikes on a Queens-bound E train during the PM rush-hour. They blocked seats and the aisle. I've also recently seen 'kids', easily in their 20s, riding their bikes on the W4th St. platform, unchallanged. The LIRR does not permit bicycles on Peak trains and on Off-Peak trains ONLY with a permit which must be purchased in advance. Does anyone else feel, like I do, that unrestricted transporting of bicycles represents a real danger to the other customers.]
It's a difficult thing to decide. There probably would be less of a call for banning bikes entirely if there were more enforcement of existing restrictions. Your example about the E is a perfect one - there are rules against blocking doors and aisles. Same with the people riding on the West 4th platform. A crackdown on these things would improve public safety without penalizing responsible bike riders.
One thing which I've noticed in riding both the LIRR and Metro North is that large suitcases (especially the wheeled, handled-pulled ones) are more of an obstacle that bicycles. Most bike riders are fairly adept at manoevering their bikes and keeping them out of the way. Quite the opposite seems to be true with large suitcases; it's not at all unusual to see people struggling with them and delaying those behind them.
Two points.
Here in Phila, bikes are permitted on Regional Rail with a bike permit, as well as the Market-Frankford el and Broad St subway. This is only outside of peak hours. PATCO allowed folding bikes for years and provided bike lockers at its NJ stations for parking. I believe PATCO has a similar policy to SEPTA's now. SEPTA buses and trolleys do not permit bikes on board and debate is now underway to allow bike racks to be placed on the fronts of these vehicles. Interestingly, Penna's Vehicle Code prohibits front-mounted racks at present, so a change will be needed.
A few years ago, on one of my infrequent trips to NYC, I found myself on the 42nd St-8th Ave uptown platform, near a wheelchair "spiral" ramp. As the train was pulling in, two teenagers were riding their bikes down the ramp, and arrived on the platform as the train's doors were opening. They proceeded to ride right onto the train, despite the other passengers who were trying to exit and board, and stopped in front of an open bench, where they blocked five or six seats. Of course, once the train got underway, they decided to ride again thru the moving car. They left at Columbus Circle (and fortunately, so did I). This only reinforces bad feelings toward bicyclists and makes folks want to ban them from the system.
My personal feeling is that permits should be required, bikes should be walked while on the system, they should be kept in designated areas if possible, and they should not be permitted during peak hours.
If not bikes on the subway, I'd at least like to see more bike racks in the stations. Perhaps with token sales eliminated and mobile station personnel, people will feel more confident that their bikes won't be ripped off. Or perhaps the MTA could fence off and lease some of those big IND mezzanines for bike holding rooms, or even bike rental in stations adjacent to Prospect and Central Parks. In other countries, you can rent a bike at one station and turn it in at another.
I could see it now--Count red bikes, blue bikes, boys bikes, girls bikes, women's bikes, men's bikes, trikes, tandems, mountain bikes,etc. Inspect each bike daily (within 15 minutes!) to be sure it is in good working condition or else call it into your field office for repair (when they get the chance to repair it after doing the wheels which they dont get to right away either!). We'd also have to count rental agreements, we'd have to count .... we'd have to prepare bike usage reports, etc ...
No thanks !!!
**the above comment is personal opinion and not that of MTA or NYCT. the whole comment is intended as a light hearted look at what might be if we rented bikes.!***
Ahh. Life in a bureaucracy -- can't do anything. Not that I'm doing anything either. I'm here on Labor Day (I don't get holidays) to print out some information on Vienna from the internet (a bunch of biwigs are coming over here and I have to prepare a briefing package) and the printer is busted. So much for work today. Of course, I could go home and use my own printer, but my kids have used all the paper. God knows how many forms will be required to get the printer fixed. And the Department only has one internet terminal hooked up to only one printer.
Like anything else, the only way to get the bike thing done is to contract it out. Just rent the space for a few cents a day, and send someone around every few weeks to see if its being used for its intended purpose. It could be a nice little business for some kids with a little ambition and not much education -- watching the bikes. After a while, perhaps they could buy some used and start renting them, exchanging them with those in the business in other places.
Or, you could follow the lead of the "red bike"/"yellow bike" program (the colors vary, depending on the location) that started, I believe, in Madison WI some time ago. The bikes are left in different places and you take it for your use, then return it when you're done. Do you think this could work in NYC? Would anyone bring the bikes back?
{Or, you could follow the lead of the "red bike"/"yellow bike" program (the colors vary, depending on the location) that started, I believe, in Madison WI some time ago. The bikes are left in different places and you take it for your use, then return it when you're done. Do you think this could work in NYC?]
When pigs fly.
[Would anyone bring the bikes back?]
When Hell freezes over.
Seriously, that program might work in Madison, where everybody's employed and making good money, and the worst crime reported in a typical year is a stolen candy bar. Suffice to say that New York's a bit different :-)
Obviously I was being a little (?) facetious. It would never work here in Phila for the same reasons. However, I've had the privilege (?) to discuss this idea with bicycle advocates who believe wholeheartedly that this would indeed work in any large Eastern city since it would appeal to the basic good in people, and besides, it would be easy to identify a thief by the color of the bike.
If you've ever dealt with what I will call, for want of a better term, the "bike crazies", this sounds familiar. I own and ride a bike but I am not a fanatic about it. These folks live and breathe two wheels and see every disagreement as a reason to go to battle. At any rate, I asked one of these folks, who was arguing the red/yellow bike network, if they had ever heard of spray paint. Again, they disagreed that anyone would steal a free bike and paint it. Life in the big city?
In a perfect world, bikes should be allowed on transit. When we get the perfect world, then this should happen next. As a daily user of transit, both in peak hours as well as midday, evening and weekend on occasion, I find that any thought of introducing bikes onto already-crowded vehicles is asking for trouble. The "inconvenience" of having to get a permit and limit one's choices to outside of peaks is a small price to pay, in my opinion.
You have bike crazies too? Egad. Thought it was a NYC plague.
They held a protest, blocking cars driving through Prospect Park (which is open to cars at rush hour) and chanting the cars must go. So I went up to one of them and said right on! AND all those people who don't have backyards shouldn't be allowed to use the park to picnic and barbeque -- too much garbage. AND those summer concerts should be closed down -- to much noise. AND those people who gather every morning with their dogs should be kicked out -- leash laws. AND those nursing mothers should be ticketed and told to respect decency and do it at home. AND those ultimate frisbee games are chewing up the grass. AND those kite could dive down and injure a child. AND finally, those bicycles -- since the run down the roads in two directions and don't stop for lights -- are a hazard to children, and should be kept out of the park. They took the whole thing seriously -- until the end.
They got their own taste of intolerance when the Orthodox Jewish community fought and stopped putting a bike route on a map through their neighborhood -- they didn't want those scantily clad female riders in their community. Bet they didn't get why so many people were laughing under their breath at that one.
I don't understand is when said bike rider boards subway car then proceeeds to chain the bike to a center pole and then sits down.
I understand bike rider does not want his bike stolen at a stop, but heck the TA should reqire the rider to stand with his bike. The chained bike can't move and when the train stops at center or side platforms everyone is jumping around this bike that won't move an inch becuse it is chanied solid to the pole.
Back to the red bike/blue bike topic for a sec. Here in Tucson (pop. 550,000) we tried orange bikes, free, left at strategic points, etc. Worked for about a month. By three months all the bikes were stolen. And yes, we have bike crazies here, too.
The bus system has front mount racks, which do get used. No subway, of course.
I had always thought the TA ought to make the first half of the first car a baggage car. After all the trains aren't broken down between runs anymore & except for the busiest stations the goods could come & go with out disrupting the riders. The TA could charge somehow for the service (a.k.a. E-Z-Pass), and maybe install a gate in place of the doors. The customer would have a key to drop off/pick up his/her packages. Following that line, make the second half of the first car for bikes. Hay, if the TA could CHARGE bike riders extra, they might do it.
Mr t__:^)
extra Fare for bikes-- Please no! You'd be inviting more jumpers. Already many people have afriend jump-they hand the bike to their friend who jumped and then they jump themselves, or they'll jump with bike in hand!!
Also- imagine more Metrocards to count and keep track on our reports. if you install special wheels then the people without bikes will gripe that the wheel charged them a double fare and gicve you tons on trouble. I say no bikes, and no strollers ***unless folded***
***opinions expressed are my own and not those of MTA or NYCT ***
HaHaHaHaHa:
For a person with less than a year on the job, you sure know how management thinks. You're gonna go far.
SK
I have no real objections to the BART plan. Their blackout periods are awfully wide however.
A permit system is ok if it is actually possible to get a permit. In DC, Metro makes it incredibly difficult to get a permit - obviously on purpose. Its almost a joke, but its true. Describes a lot of DC, actually. Glad I moved...
Bikes on rapid transit, like HOV lanes, is suposed to reduce the volume of cars. If it did that it would be a good thing.
However I agree with whatelse has been said here, i.e. bikes don't seem to fit in on the subway & the buses that have racks are mostly empty, as are the HOV to a large extent. Old habits die hard.
Mr t__:^)
The only MTA operating arm that hasn't been meantioned is the Staten Island Railway. When I lived on Staten Island the policy was NO BIKES period.
Sometimes a nice Trainman or Conductor would allow a bike on in the unopened car, most times it was no bikes period.
I haven't seen a recent public timetable of the SIR, I wonder if they have changed their offical policy?
Hank??
I checked the MTA website, and it said that bikes are allowed both on the SI Railroad and on the subway -- subject to general conditions that cargo cannot constitute a safety hazard. The rule has a lot of discresion, but there are "advisory" safety rules -- avoid rush hour, stand near end of car, stand with bike, etc. So train personnel have the authority to throw bikers off, but they are allowed.
Bikes are allowed on SIR, according to the published rules I last saw, at all times. Technically, they enforce (if they bother)a ban on rush hour trains. This made sense when they only ran 4-car trains, but with 5-car trains, there is usually enough room. It is, technically, at the discretion of the conductor, and riders are encouraged to use the rear car of the train.
-Hank
The bicycles have no place on the subway! These bike messengers are hardly the environment hero types which were prevalent out west 25 years ago!
Having been nearly run over by these jerks on more than one occasion, I can only say that I would love to watch one of them crossing the Grand Concourse against the light, and I don't mean going under or over it!
YVY
Hello People
I just came across this board today and it is interesting to read about all the different stuff about the subway beings I am from the country . The reason I put up the subject line was my parents are still Old Order Amish and they live in the Northern part of Indiana .
Here is the question has anybody seen any Amish use the transit system when they come to New York or surrounding areas ? I was just wondering. Thanks for your time in reading this
Cordially
Amos Yoder
I don't know about New York but with Baltimore and Washington being so close to Lancaster County and the Amish region to the east of Pittsburgh, it's not surprising that I've seen them on the DC system although not yet on Baltimore's, not yet at least---I'll bet that they can be seen on Philadelphia's though.
Sometimes I see a couple of Amish vendors with stands at the Union Square greenmarket. I don't know what sort of transportation they use, however.
There are some vendors outsice the Columbus Circle Station dressed as Amish. I don't know if they really are. I thought I saw some Amish board an M train in Williamsburg but they were actually Hassedics (LOL)
Boy, you made the same mistake as the Amish kid who went to the Philadelphia railroad sation in The Witness ;-)
Yes, they are "real Amish" at Columbus Circle. The family (not Old Order) drives from Bloomsburg, PA. They formerly had a farm in Newport, NY.
In addition to a stand, they ran a store on Union Square West, where along with food, they sold handmade furniture of Amish and Mennonite neighbors. Also ran a small shop in Grand Central Terminal.
Had a conversation with the owner, as I was interested in knowing to which sect of Amish he belonged. My father was Old Order growing up in New Holland, before coming to New York to begin the life of an "Englisher".
You won't see any "AMISH" people in New York. You will see Menenites (sp?) though. Very similar to the Amish but more modern. True Amish people don't use anything fueled by electricity. Although Menenites drive black cars (only) and have electricity running in their homes. I grew up 1/2 hour from the Amish and learned a lot about them.
I think its pretty safe to say that most Amish folks spend very little time in big cities, so you are not going to see many on subway systems.
There are a fairly large number of Amish folks riding on Amtrak.
"There are a fairly large number of Amish folks riding on Amtrak."
That's where I see them here in Chicago. Almost every day when I ride the Metra (sometimes I take the L, sometimes Metra), I see some Amish at Union Station. Never seen one on the L or the Metra, though.
Where in northern Indiana are your folks from? I'm from South Bend myself. GO IRISH!!!
CAN THEY OPERATE THE REDBIRDS AND THE R62S TOGETHER IN THE SAME TRAIN OR WOULD ONE DOWNGRADE THE OPERATION OF ANOTHER. HAVE THEY EVER OPERATED THEM MIXED IN SERVICE. SOMEONE POSTED ABOUT THEY SHOULDNT OPERATE THEM LIKE THAT WHEN TALKING ABOUT CAR SHORTAGES ON THE FLUSHING. PLEASE ANSWER.
There is no mechanical reason why redbirds and R-62s can't be operated together. It just is not done for operational reasons.
Perhaps you would be so kind as to turnoff your CapLock, now.
There is a photo in New York Subway Cars of an R-62 coupled to the end of a train of R-21s, so apparently it is possible to do so. I take it the R-62s are mechanically and electrically compatible with the Redbirds.
In 1985 I saw a R62 coupled to R33/R36 /R21/R17 in passanger service on the # 5 just north of E. 180 Street. The R 62 was the third car. (by itself) I was riding in a car above the tracks on the Bronx River Parkway.
R62s are never coupled to the any other car in passanger service. What you saw was a light move of cars. R62 was probably being tested that time. What a transition! One can see an overhauled car, a car with graffiti, and a new car all on the same train. What will they think of next? I recall seeing a strange sight. In 1983, with the arrival of the Japanese R62s, I saw a strange thing. A diesel locomotive was pulling three new R62s and one (sometimes two) R12/14 work cars. It was the strangest thing I've ever seen.
-Constantine Steffan
That photo I alluded to in a previous post was more than likely that of a train in a light move. In fact, I'm pretty sure the caption mentions that fact. You're likely to see some really weird consists such as IRT and BMT/IND equipment coupled together in light moves, especially in yards; the H-2-C couplers make it possible. You just won't see any R-44s or R-46s in such a consist; their couplers make them horses of a different color, so to speak.
Hey Steve...I know the electric portions were upgraded from
the older 3-row to 4-row when the redbirds were GOH'd (except
maybe the flushing 33s and 36s that were done in the mid-80s??)
Are all the trainlines compatible between a 26/28/29 and a 62 now?
Yesterday (Sat) afternoon I decided to take a ride on the [7] train to Main Street. It was very crowded, due to the U.S. Open and a Mets game at Shea Stadium. [It would have been a perfect opportunity for off-peak express service...]
When we arrived at Willets Point/Shea, the conductor announced, "Doors will open on both sides now. Use the right doors for the U.S. Open, and left doors for Shea."
Then proceeding to Main Street, we arrived on the middle track. Once again, the conductor announced, "Both sides' doors will open. Please use both sides to exit the train."
It's very unusual for trains to open both sides at any stop. But two stations in a row? Is there anywhere else on the system where this is even possible?
So (with apologies to Judy Collins) I've seen train doors open from both sides now, on a beautiful sunny day on the [7] el.
And that's (rail) traffic and weather together!
When are we going to get weekend express service to and from Shea? The crowds on the 7 seem big even without the Mets or the Open. Maybe you should apologize first to the song's writer-Joni Mitchell.
On the D train in the Bronx at Tremont Ave and Fordham Road and Kingsbridge Ave and Bedford Park Blvd the D train can open on both sides when it goes express in the morning and at night on weekdays.
Charlie Muller
The center track at Bedford Park is used by C trains which terminate there.
While it is possible for a D train to open its doors on both sides at the other three stations while running express, I have never seen this done on the Concourse line. The only time I ever remember seeing train doors open on both sides was at 59th St.-Columbus Circle back in the days when the center platform was used during rush hours.
Steve B, the B train now terminates at Bedford Park Blvd. The C train now goed to 168th St in Manhattan. The switch happened in April or May of ths year. I have never seen the D train do it either in the Bronx, but they might have done it in the old days to, as they done at 59th St Columbus Circle.
Charlie Muller.
I stand corrected. I knew about the B and C swap. Old habits die hard.
Steve B, no problem about the B anc C train swap. Also something else about both sides. Sometime where their is track, or signal work on the D line on the weekend, the D train will go express between 145 th St and Tremont Ave. At Tremont Ave the conductor will open the doors on both sides. He or she will make an announcement saying that people who need to back downtown to get bypassed stations use the doors on the left. This way the folks do not have to go up the stairs on the uptown side and cross over to the downtown side. People getting off at Tremont Ave. will use the doors on the uptown side.
Charlie Muller.
That makes sense. When I flew into New York in October of 1984 after a four-year absence, the Manhattan-bound local track on the Flushing line was closed for rehabilitation, and all Manhattan-bound 7 trains were using the express track. I had to take a Flushing-bound local to Junction Blvd., where I changed to a Manhattan-bound train. Alas, the conductor opened the doors on the left side of that Manhattan-bound train only. The same thing happened at 61st.-Woodside. Apparently, the stairways to the Manhattan-bound platform at both express stops were closed.
I also recall that R-36 Redbirds were beginning to appear at that time.
finally the ta has done something with some common sense! having both side of the train doors open at Willets point makes sense since it allows quicker exit and perfect for the occaision Baseball on one side and tennis the other PERFECT since there aren't too many other locations equiped as such
Well, any express train on a 3-track line can do it, but the only subway stops I can think of where it's even possible to open both sides of the train are 59st on the A/B/C/D and Hoyt-Schermerhorn on the A/C/G. Probably Chambers St on the Nassau line as well. Whitehall St on the N/R. Bedford-Nostrand on the G. And the only place I can think of it being regularly done is at E180st in the Bronx.
-Hank
I'm glad to see the TA used some common sense. It's also a good thing that they left that outside platform in place on the Flushing line. You're right - it's very unusual for a train to open its doors on both sides at one station, let alone two in a row.
While it's true that it could be done at any 3-track express stop on a train which happens to be running express, I've never seen it done. 99.9% of the time only the doors to the right will open; i. e., they will open to the same platform which has local service in the same direction.
The center platform at 59th St.-Columbus Circle isn't used anymore. It used to be open only during rush hours. I have boarded trains on a couple of occasions from that center platform, back in 1968-69. Supposedly, it's too difficult to open the doors on both sides on newer cars; I don't understand that logic. You would figure that with full-width cabs, it should be easier.
The center track at Bedford-Nostrand isn't normally used unless trains have to be rerouted for some reason. I remember seeing signs pointing to the outer tracks on each platform which said, "All trains this side." Supposedly, that track would have been a terminus for trains continuing toward Broadway under Lafayette Ave., had the Second System been built.
You know, they could open the doors on both sides of the train using the "center" track on the 42nd St. shuttle at Grand Central; I don't believe this is the case.
There is one other location where it would be possible for an express train to open its doors on both sides at two consecutive stations: Kingsbridge Rd. and Fordham Rd. on the Concourse (D) line. The odds of that happening, however, are pretty slim.
Here's another one, although it doesn't qualify for two stations in a row: Bowling Green, southbound, front section only. You have that extra platform which used to be used by the shuttle to South Ferry. Speaking of which, did they actually used to open the doors on both sides of the front section of 4 and 5 trains when the shuttle still ran? Was there a staircase leading to the shuttle platform? If there was one, it must have been walled off, because I don't see it there now.
Also, at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, did trains from Manhattan actually open their doors on both sides when the Court St. shuttle still ran? Are there any Subtalkers who remember riding the Court St. shuttle?
Speaking of Bowling Green, a northbound train could (until they installed the fence) open both sides there. There is still an open stair to the shuttle platform at Bowling Green. There also used to be an escalator, which is borded over.
-Hank
Whenever the M is running as a shuttle to B'way/Myrtle, both sides of the train are usually opened at Myrtle. I also rode one D train that opened both sides as it traveled downtown along the Concourse and even at 145 ST.
Many thanks to all who replied to my original message. And now, the results:
I started at Columbus Circle (59th & 8th), taking the 1/9 (sorry, don't remember which sometimes, forgive me) up to 168th street. The viaduct was cool at the 125th street station. I've always been amazed at the "open airness" of the 1/9, at least around columbus circle & other parts. The underground yard was pretty much empty, and much bigger than I imagined. What is that, 8 tracks down there? And finally for this leg, the 168th street station was just amazing...I loved the architecture further north on the 1/9, and the open station with overpasses over the trains was really something. To actually look *down* on a moving subway car in a tunnel, that's not something I get to do every day.
The elevator ride to the A train was quite long, as mentioned. It was a very dissappointing A ride down to 42nd street...the stretch between 125th and 59th, where the motorman could have wrapped it around (and left it there!) was taken somewhat slowly. Too bad...I don't plan to ride this stretch in the near future.
From 42nd street I took the N/R to Canal. The transfer passage between the N/R and J/M/Z lines was an unexpected treat...a completely abandoned (old) Canal Street station to walk through! Is this part of the abandoned sites page? I'd be happy to do some volunteer work if not. It was amazing...the (eastbound) track was completely torn up, but the third rail was still preserved on blocks. The (westbound?) side seemed to be more intact. It was funny to see the (motorman's track selection) box where there was no track. Definitely one of the highlights on the trip.
From Canal I took the J/M/Z to Chambers street, which has the abandoned platforms. Apparently the rats knew which platforms were abandoned, because there was one who was waiting for the Brooklyn- bound trains on the active platform. Good size, too.
At Chambers I crossed over the rat and platforms to the northbound side where I took the J/M/Z to Essex street. I didn't realize how extensive the old trolley terminal was until I walked all the way down the platform. Then wow! It's too bad everything was torn up...I had too look at the pantograph wires in the celing at first to get an idea of what went where. Are there any pictures or diagrams of this old trolley terminal? Where were the passenger areas, etc? There seemed to be signal & other misc box storage in one part of the terminal.
From Essex, I waited for about 9 years for the F train to take me over to Lex. When I got to Bleecker, another F pulled in right behind mine. Harrumph.
Realizing the Bleecker was southbound only (I'm not perfect, I was tired, the dog ate my homework), I decided to ride the City Hall loop again. A-well, the nice motorman of the 6 said "last stop, everyone off, no passengers". When I asked him if I could ride around the loop, he told me in no uncertain terms that policy had changed and that they were not allowing passengers around the loop anymore. :(
So, I trasferred the hard way (walked) uptown and between the 4/5/6 made it up to Central Park for the Montreux Jazz Festival! (The jazz seemed sloppy, the burger from the Hard Rock concession was really good.)
Again, thanks to all who suggested lines and things to me, specifically Peter Rosa, Mark S Feinman, and Thurston. I wonder if subtours might actually make a good part of this site? This took me around 2 hours to do, but I did do it at rush hour. (5-7:15). An area of the site with routes would be nifty!
-Lee J Weiner
That is so terribly sad! These days I was planning to ride the loop,and now it might be impossible to see the beatiful mysteries the station has!(Of course,you can see them in here,but everybody wants the real thing!)
It is true and offical. I was at Pelham Bay Park yesterday and saw the memo. All #6 trains are to be cleaned out (empty of customers) before entering the City Hall loop. Signed by a Superintendent.
There was no reason given, so lacking this we can all speculate.
I feel that there is a glimmer of hope in this situation, it may be temporary.
It is my understanding that because of the work that is being done at Westchester Yard, this weekend, no trains will be stored there. They are being stored on one the express tracks south of 14th street. Since supervision is not all ways sure which trains they are going to store, if all trains entering the loop are cleaned out, they can store any train quickly.
I could be wrong, but I hope it is the case.
I recently was allowed to ride the loop...it was on a Friday evening and the conductor even told me next time to bring my camera he would let me take pictures. He actually stopped the train and allowed me to walk around. He gave me the history on the station and I walked up and down the platform it was really great!
You are one very lucky person. I have never stopped the train to let myself on the platform. Did you ask the Conductor let you off or did he volunteer on his own?
A memmo was sent down that no track work is to be done in the loop without first notifing the tower or dispatcher. They want to know if anyone is going in, even for inspection of the track. I guess they are afraid of terrorist doing something to City Hall
For those of you who haven't been down here, all the sidewalks in the civic center are now blocked by concrete barricades to prevent suicide bombers in trucks from crashing through the wall of a building before detination -- with the exception of the sidewalk in front of the Department of City Planning. Our building is leaning on the new federal building -- the other building is across the street (with the FBI), and the alleged terrorists (who could have been taken anywhere in the U.S.) are being held right across Foley Square. Why didn't they bring those guys to the middle of Iowa for trial?
Over in Kenya, the bomb shook the solidly built U.S. embassy and killed twelve people, while demolishing nearby office buildings and killing hundreds of Africans. Our offices are in three 100 year old tenements that were combined together into an office building for historic preservation. If someone tries to bomb Foley Square, the federal buildings would shake a little and lose some glass, but we're going down. Our building started to crack and shake when they built the new federal building, just from the construction. On our floor, we've started calling ourselves the Africans. How fortunate that we sit over part of the historic African Burial Ground. They won't even have to dig us out to rebury us.
I never thought of the terrorist angle. If thats the case, then I would say It's a good idea.
Didn't know you can't ride around the City Hall loop anymore, obviously due to the fact of that youth killed a few months ago. Any IRT TA worker see a written edict to that effect? Also you mention about your A line motorman taking it slowly from 125 to 59. I would bet he is not to blame. I bet you had an R44, the most troublesome car since the R16. Those things are brutally slow, slowed down more due to their longer required stopping distance due to a dynamic brake modification.
Bill,
I'm an A Div Conductor, see my other responce in this thread.
i've taken a couple of A line rides one with an R 38 and the last two with R 44 equip and it seems as if the timers probably have been modified for a slower speed. especially between 86th st CPW and 81st.
i think at at point the speed limit was 40 mph posted but the timers were modified. trains used to leave 86th st wrapped and coast into 81st take a mild brake entering 81st to allow the first timer to go to yellow take alittle more brake before the yellow and the home signal would go to yellow before the switch into the siding betwn 81st and 72 nd st...
The R-38s move at a good clip down Cental Park West until you get to 72nd St. Then it's merrily-we-crawl-along.
Nothing, but nothing, will ever take the place of the R-10s on the A line. Let's just hope the R-38s stay there.
I was disappointed with the speed of the Central Park West express( Or the 'A' train). We were pulling along so slowly, I was expecting to fly down the tunnel. My son was sorely disappointed because I worked him up with stories of it's speed( though I haven't done it since, oh, 1989). But he got to ride an R-44.
That explains it, in a nutshell. Unless I'm pressed for time, I always wait for an A train of R-38s when riding along that express dash. While no one will mistake them for the R-10s, the R-38s move along at a good clip, at least on the uptown run along CPW.
I will be in New Tork once again next month and plan to take my traditional joyride up CPW and the Grand Concourse during the PM rush hour; I wonder if the 45 mph signs still adorn the tunnel wall along the uptown express track.
Bring back the R-32s on the D! Send the R-68s to the E!
Even of 45 M.P.H. signs adore the walls, rest assured the train won't be able to go that fast.
That's for the express, right? Here in Philly, the BSS express between Olney and North Philadelphia( a station built to serve express trains but on the Ridge Avenue trains stop), trains can and DO reach speeds in excess of 60 MPH! I kid you not. The 'A' certainly wasn't going nearly that fast.
If one of our subway trains could get up to 60 M.P.H. : I shrudder to think how long it would take to stop it!
If it is speed you crave, then I have your prescription:
Take a trip down to Washington DC and ride the Metro.
I was there Aug 27-28 - one train did 77 MPH in its tunnel (green line); others cruised along at a mere 70 MPH (past National Airport)
another did 73 in a tunnel (red line out of Dupont Circle)
I even watched one round an elevated curve at 45 MPH - they even do 45
MPH or so between stations! PS They have LEDs on the plainly-visible
consoles in the cabs (just don't lean on the cab door or otherwise
distract the 'attendant') that indicate a) maximum speed for the zone
b) current operating speed. Nothing moves like a Metro train does.
And the older cars (the 1976-7 models) even feel like R44s.
They even have door chimes like R44/46/62/68.
Wayne
BART (San Francisco) trains do 80 (I've seen it on the speedometer myself) in the TransBay tube.
--Mark
As long as we are talking speeds, the Baltimore Metro (aka subway) hits 65 between Cold Spring and Rogers stations and 70 after Reisterstown Plaza. This is either under full automatic or manual operation.
I can top that - I rode a BART train out to Oakland, and it hit 85. That same train also did 72 in the Transbay tube. Not too shabby...
You're right. I have no doubt that the R-10s regularly hit 45 mph or more back in their heyday on the A line; ditto for the R-32s on the D and slant R-40s on the A during the late 70s (man, could they move!). If I'm lucky, I'll catch a glimpse of the speedometer on the next A train of R-38s I take on that stretch as it reaches 81st St. Of course, the operator will have to have the cab door open a tad...
I know it's off the usual topic but I just visited the Guggenheim Museum Exhibit on the History & Evolution of Motorcycles. For anyone who has any interest in two wheel Rapid transit, I strongly reccommend this exhibit. It'll be open until Sept. 20th and well worth the $12.00 admission. If nothing else, it'll give you another excuse to ride the subway to get there.
I have developed an interest in Motorcycles recently. I like the sport bikes, but I just cannot get into the Harley's at all. I'm pretty sure it's the speed factor with me. The more speed it's capable of.... the more I like it.
Hi. I just wanna say that ever since I was 3, I love riding and looking at the subway trains here. I'm hoping I could becoming a motorman one day, just because I love the trains!!!!
When I was 3 or 4 years old, my grandmother would take me to Livonia Ave in Brooklyn to watch the trains make the sharp turn after emerging from the tunnel. I too loved them and could watch for hours. It's great to have a career that's also a hobby. Take it from one who knows.
When I was learning how to walk, I would crawl up the stairs in the 6 family house we lived in to my aunt's apartment on the 3rd floor, there, I would climb up onto the kitchen chair and look out the window and see the Myrtle Ave. trains enter and leave Forest Ave. station. I guess I liked it so much, I work the M line today.
I always wanted a career with mass transit also. I grew up near West Farms Sq in the Bronx - so I spent much time riding the #5 train and occasionally the #2. I knew that there were lettered trains (IND/BMT) that I had never seen, but I heard adults mention them. When I was 8 we moved to the Grand Concourse, and I was floored by the IND. My first ride was aboard a D train with R-42's and back then - their A/C was simply awesome. On this day, I also rode an R-10 on the AA and we came back home on an R-44 on the D. Until this day I had only known of IRT equipment which all looked pretty much the same - and now here I was discovering all of these different trains. It was very exciting especially, the R-1/9's which were in their last days on the CC line, the R-10 on the A and boy were they ever fast!!! What good memories!!! That's probably why I tend to favor the B-division over the A-division. I remember when I first saw the R-42 arriving at Tremont Ave, I immediately shouted to my mom and brother - that it "looked like the train on Park Ave". I was referring to the Metro-North (Then ConRail) M-1 that I usually saw when passing Park Ave on one of the Bronx' crosstwon buses.
BTW - I never did realize my dream of a career in mass transit even though I did test and was selected for a MABSTOA Bus Operator in the late 1980's, but I decided not to accept the offer. I instead became a Local Area Network (LAN) Administrator - and I'm currently at the Washington Post.
I'm quite happy with my career choice, but I always think about how it would have been to work for NYCT.
When I was 5yrs old my grandmother took me to Radio City Music Hall to see Mary Popins (the movie with live band though).
The motorman on the 7 let me ride in the cab on his lap, I was hooked for life.
Now a days he would have been fired and charged with child molestation but it was an fantastic journey.
Say, I remember when Mary Poppins first came out, too. I saw it on January 31, 1965 in South Bend. I used to refer to one of our Congresswomen from Colorado as Mary Poppins, but that's a different story. I saw three movies at Radio City: Up the Down Staircase on Sept. 5, 1967, The Odd Couple on July 31, 1968, and A Boy Named Charlie Brown in December 1969.
Anyway, we swung through New York during the summer of 1965 while on vacation, and the day after visiting the World's Fair (July 21), I rode the subway for the very first time on an N train of shiny new R-32s. Two years later, we moved to Jersey and started to go to the city regularly. I rode the IND for the first time on April 30, 1967 - on a D train, I believe - and would stomp my foot as I was about to walk anywhere in the house afterwards in an attempt to imitate the way those R-1/9s would jerk forward when power was applied. I would even add motor sounds - I'll bet Michael Winslow could do a great impression of those cars! My first ride on an A train, my all-time favorite route, was on July 20. My mother and I rode it all the way out to Broadway-East New York, where we transferred to the Canarsie line. Then I saw the BMT standards for the first time. I thought, yecchhh!! No signs up front - what is this? You all know how I feel about the standards.
To sum it up, I was hooked. No trip to New York was complete without a subway ride. We went out to the Statue of Liberty on June 18, 1967, and after returning to the Battery, I talked my folks into taking us on the subway. We ended up taking a QT or RR from Whitehall St. - don't remember which - up to Union Square and back. I was happy.
When I found out we would have to leave Indiana, I took it pretty hard. My mother says I forgave my folks for moving once we started going to New York. As long as it included a subway ride! And even though I never pursued a job with the TA, and never considered it, my love affair with the subway continues to this day.
Ahh, memories.
I grew up in Brighton Beach, Brooklyn, with a perfect view of the BMT at Brighton Beach. Many times I would fall asleep sitting on the window sill (amazing I never fell off) watching the trains at night shift from their PM rush hour to their evening schedules. The echo of the wheels-on-rail would lull me to sleep. And on trips to my grandmother's house one block over on Brighton 7th St, well, her kitchen window was platform level! They had to build a child guard on the window especially for me! The view there was even better than my house. My barber was across the street, and he had to turn the chair 180 degrees around, so I could face the trains and get a haircut. (I wouldn't let him cut my hair unless he did this, and it was the only way my parents could get me to cooperate). And growing up and going to elementary school, well, I took the train every chance I got, faking my bus pass as a train pass.
I never pursued a career in transit mostly because I was discouraged from it by my parents. Rightly or wrongly, they thought I "wouldn't make anything of myself", and being the first college graduate in my family, they were awfully proud of that and didn't want to see it "wasted" on a career in Transit.
So now I enjoy life as a programmer, and in my family room, I play dispatcher, train operator, conductor, yard master and technician on my own HO scale subway system with its fleet of 46 cars. And to this day, I never forget those terrific views of the BMT at Brighton Beach, and still go out of my way to ride the trains whenever I can.
(Except now that I'm older, I ride with a video camera.)
--Mark
I read the threads after this that go on into Tuesday, so I'll add a different spin ... Unlike you folks I'm orig. form out-of-town. No subways in the middle of CT, just Tug Boats & Oil Barges, plus a freight line on the other side of the CT river. Middletown, CT has a decent freight yard & a small bus line, so nothing very exciting.
The bug bit me in Boston when I rode the PCCs to work, I would go across the Charles to ride the trackless trollys, and also got interested in the Bud cars (B&M and NYNH&H had them) ... but when I came to NYC in the 60s & started taking the #7 to work I was hooked. Even though my career went to the friendly skys I never (still) haven't lost my love of mass transit.
Mr (small) t__:^)
The R-143 is expected to take out all of the R-33/36 models/ What if the R-33/36 models can totally be rebuilt with the new upgrades and proves to be a better model than the R-143 what will happen to the R-143? If the R-143 is the better model what will happen to the R-33/36?
Christopher Rivera
Chris (C. James),
We've been down this road before. The only thing holding together the R-33S/36 cars on the Flushing Line, and most of the Redbirds for that matter, is Bondo. Electrically, mechanically, and pneumatically, the cars are fine even if they are outmoded. But the bodies are falling apart, and it would cost big bucks to fix them if they can be fixed at all.
BTW, you probably meant the R-142/R-142A. The R-143 series is designed as a 60-foot-long BMT-IND car.
David
BTW - the R-143 is going to be 67 fwwt long and run in normal consists of 9-cars.
The need to move forward with cars that will run well into the next century is important, but the immediate need to provide reliable service in the short term is also important.
Rehabbing of transit equipment sometimes is effective where bodies and mechanical equipment are remanufactured to like new condition. But sometimes it is better to let the old technology go and replace it with state of the art equipment. What is the right choice? Only time will tell.
Rebuilding a good freind vs. new is allways a tough choice.
Based on the experience of the R-110's what is the best choice R-143 or rehabbed R-33/36's? Or to say it another way, do we move to the future or cling to the past? The safe choice or the right choice.
No amount of rehabilitation or rebuilding will give the redbirds a new lease on life. Technology not withstanding, the car bodies are corroded to the point where if the cars went through a General Overhaul (designed to last 15-20 years) we would actually get less than 5 years of utility from the fleet. It's time to let the redbirds go.
Thanks was was my question. I understand. On a bus rehab a few years ago we decided to let the fishbowls (GMC New Looks) go gracefully but we still rehab RTS's.
As good of a bus as it was in it's day it was time to move on.
How old are the redbirds and didn't they have a rebuild once already?
The Redbirds date from 1958 (R26), 1959 (R28), 1962 (R29), 1963 (R33)
and 1964 (R36). All the cars had A/C retrofits, some as long ago as
fifteen years or so. I believe they also had general overhauls then
as well. There's just so much that a carbon steel car body can take
before it begins to rot away. Believe it or not, some of the oldest
Redbirds (R28, in particular), look like they're in better shape than
their newer (R29) counterparts.
Wayne
The single unit Flushing R-33s did not receive air conditioning when they were rebuilt. There wasn't enough space to fit all the hardware.
But there's a big difference between subway cars and the RTS. A subway car is all steet construction, where the RTS (and most transit buses nowadays) are fiberglas and wood on a steel frame. There is no way for the body to rot on an RTS. Steel subway car bodies, on the otherhand, can, will, and do. The limiting factor on the rebuilding of a bus is the condition of the frame and bulkheads, and long-term costs. On a subway car, it's the entire body, and long term costs. Steel doesn't last as long as fiberglass, but the subway has the advantage of keeping many of the elements away from the cars, ESPECIALLY roadsalt. If you exposed a redbird to a winter seeing the same conditions a bus sees, it wouldn't last as long as it has.
-Hank
The Redbirds were the best, are the best, & will always be the best. It bothers me a lot that they're being scrapped. C'mon now, they are the best in New York! They are actually nice to look at, nlike the new ones that will replace them.
One of the worst things public organizations do is allow public opinion, which is largely emotional and not based on all of the facts, to sway business decissions. The Redbirds are at the end of their road - period. They are only "the best" from a rail fans' point of view. From the point of view of the riding public - they are far from that. In the opinion of the professionals who make such decissions, it is time to say goodbye. You look at the car but don't see things like 'Maintenance cost per revenue mile'. They are not fiscally practical to maintain any longer. Donate to Seashore or Branford or even the Transit Museum and go see them, restored, and where they belong.
The old saying applies perfectly: nothing lasts forever. I hate to see the Redbirds go just as much as I hated to see the R-1/9s and R-10s go by way of the scrapper's torch. It gets to the point where it is no longer cost effective to maintain older cars. In other words, older cars become costly to maintain. Add to that the obsolescence of spare parts, and, well, you get the picture.
Don't feel bad; you're not alone in your feelings. Many Brooklynites were sad to see the BMT standards and Triplex units ride off into the sunset. It was a double whammy: first the Dodgers left, then the old BMT cars were retired.
Just got back from an end to end ride on a new M-4. Wow! On the trip out from 69th st. the operator told me the message center announced
at 5th st ."Last stop- 5th st." He had to get on the P.A. and tell
all the departing passengers to get back on the train!
On the trip back from Frankford I chatted all the way with a "Septa
troubleshooter". He said the different companies don't reveal their
softwear secrects to each other so funny things happen on the train.
He is there to solve all the computer gliches. He opened the cabinet
that houses the computer and you could see the lights function as the train went through it's paces. He thinks Kawasaki did a better job with the Broad St. B-IV cars than Adrantz is doing with these.Their are 68 cars on the property out of 200 ordered. Anyway. I got quite an education!
Hey Chuck I had the pleasure of riding of finally getting to ride on the new M-4 cars from Frankford terminal to 2nd St. I have to say the new cars are really nice and really no problems with the cars. Although the operater over shot the Tioga St. stop by two car lengths.
These new cars have quite an unusaul horn sound. Also I feel these cars accelerate fairly quick. Some have said the M-4s are slower. I guess only time will tell how long they will stay this nice.
The Kawasaki folks hung around town for quite a while both with the Broad St cars and the LRV's. I recall seeing K technicians coming into the Elmwood Depot every morning (I guess they were staying in Center City) for months after the last LRV was delivered. This was also a common sight on the Broad St subway where the tech would ride in the motorman's cab. Sometimes two or three techs would be in there and it had to be crowded.
Hi Ron! The troubleshooter said they are just as fast as the old M-3's. It's all how you drive the train. You can only juice it up
2 or 3 points of power or the train stalls for 15 seconds. The computer tells it we can't accererate that fast in a short time! So you have to develop a way to accererate without stalling it. Some operators can do this so it makes the train seem like it is really picking up speed fast. They are keeping the same headways and running times so all must be prety equal.
Chuck
>2 or 3 points of power or the train stalls for 15 seconds.
> The computer tells it we can't accererate that fast in a
> short time! So you have to develop a way to accererate
> without stalling it.
Geez...
Virtually any of the old camshaft controlled trains will allow you to put the controller in the maximum power notch, without stalling, or complaining. They just accelerate up normally. Can't a damm computer do that????
Of course, Adtranz comes from the land of the screwy europeans, who build airplanes that can override their pilots....
A PCC streetcar will accelerate as fast as it is supposed to and no faster if the pedal is all the way to the floor. The computer should figure how to do that out also. Less pedal on a PCC will gain speed slower. So much for progress.
True, but if the PCC is fully shunted, bringing the pedal almost to the switch position will bring it to balancing speed faster.
The cars are just as fast as the M-3's. It does eem to take a bit more time accelerating than the oldies do. But the problem with the M-4's is the brakes. About 5 of my rides on the "new el" as the locals put it, were cut short because of brake problems. Also, when riding to or from Frankford, will you take time to notice a train laid up on a pit track south of Spring Garedn St. station. It's been there since before the strike.
If you ride the M-3's frequently and stand at the famous front window when the horn is blown as the train is about to exit the 44th St. portal(it is at 44th not 40th or 46th), you'll know why they changed the horn.
Just dropped my hearing aid.
Does anyone have any details of the date of the forthcoming withdrwal of the "redirds", and the timescale involved ?
I heard they would all be out of service by the millenium. So far, I've heard about 100 Redbirds cars went out of service in the last two months. They were supposed to all be gone by 1999, but they need as much equipment as possible, so they are trying to keep as many as possible. They may use the ones that are in OK shape as work trains.
I can't picture New York without them. The R-33s are my favorite, but also the R-32s. The subways will never be the same!
What I hate are the slants thatr un on the N line a lot. They are just stupid looking.
LONG LIVE REDBIRDS!!!!
At least the R-32s will be around for the forseeable future.
This isn't related to recent threads on LIRR parking. It's a question for information.
Is there anyone out there familiar with the parking arrangements at NJT's Corridor stations, particularly Rahway and Linden? Is there much available? Is it NJT's or private lots? How is the availability on weekends? I've never used either stop and I'm looking for an alternate to Trenton since the trains, especially early AM, only run hourly. At either of the noted stations, service is better since the NJCL trains also stop there.
Any info would be appreciated. Thanks.
i think linden has a paid public lot on both side of the tracks. not sure about rahway. also njcl turn off the a rahway they don't go to trenton. metro park has new garages. some monthy and i think daily. also been years since been down there.
Your best bet may be Metropark. Although it is only served by the NEC trains, there is an exit ramp from the Garden State Parkway which puts you almost right into the parking garage.
The parking garage is huge -- just opened in the last year or two -- and has alleviated the terrible parking situation that used to exist at that station. From what I remember, the lots at Rahway and Linden are much smaller, and may be resident only.
Has the TA ever considered a route up 8th Ave. to Yankee
Stadium or maybe flipping the A and D? Wouldn't this make
the trip more appealing for fans who could come into the
Port Authority Terminal or Pennsylvania Station? We train
nuts don't mind (or actually prefer) making transfers, but
the average fan just wants to get to the park with the
least possible hassle.
Your post points out the central problem for George in the Bronx. Assuming paying him off is the only public works priority that matters, one could build a MetroNorth Station on the Husdson line and (I'm told) even build a way for Harlem and New Haven line trains to swing over. Manhattan fans have the subway, ferries, and taxis up the FDR. But NJ fans, half of the total, are still left with the GW bridge and their cars -- or a long ride in and a long ride out. Hence the desire to locate in Manhattan, where enough fans to fill the stadium might just popover on a weeknight, and where mass transit for the region is centered. Of course, for that very reason, property in Manhattan is very valuable, but if you are getting it for free...
The idea of a grand gathering space in the center of the region is a good one. I just can't stand the idea of being blackmailed by a monopoly. Did Bill Gates ever say to New York and New Jersey "one of you isn't going to have operating systems -- I want a billion dollars?" And if it wasn't for monopoly power, does anyone doubt that there would be a team in NJ already, and no one would have to cross a bridge?
If a west side stadium were built what percentage would use public transporation anyhow? 45-50%? true it is linked very well with regard to subways and commuter rail as well as Amtrak and ferry service from NJ but can you really pull a person who uses their car most of the time to ride to an event at the new venue? i think not. Manhattan is already jammed with auto traffic just to add icing to that would be to have a stadium built. GWB is probably at capacity now and the west side highway down to 34th st forget about it. Lincoln and Holland tunnels are well beyond their capacity well the approaches included make it more aggravating..
I would guess that the percentage of fans using public transit for a west side stadium would be quite similar to that for the Knicks and Rangers.
Does anyone know where that number may exist? I used to work in Penn Plaza, and I would guess that the number must be 80% or more on public transit for weeknight games.
The trick is, however, that the Knicks and Rangers do not draw much of a fan base from NJ. The Yankees, allegedly, do. And it is these people who would drive into the city to see a Yankee game, just as Long Island fans of the Mets do.
-Hank
What guarantee does anybody have that NJT is going to increase NYC-bound service to accomodate all these manhattan stadium bound New Jersey fans? I can see conflicts with Amtrak already, and wouldn't some of the NJT trains have to loop back through Sunnyside?
Inbound capacity is not a problem at 6:30 pm on a weekday, with all those trains coming in to pick up people going out. Outbound tunnel capacity is not a problem at 11:00 p.m. Weekends are also fine. Proposals include a "moving sidewalk" from Penn and running the #7 around to the stadium/Javits Center/Hudson River Park area. There are a whole set of proposals for the streets, and similar proposals for the Bronx. But the whole thing seems to have gone away -- for now.
The main reason that the A and D trains have their current service patterns (which date from the early 1940's, BTW), is that the A has its main yard at the north end (207th St) while D comes out of Coney Island (I realize that some D's also lay up at Concourse as well). I also realize that the pre-1954 D train did not have Coney Island access. If the D were to go from 207th/Manhattan to Brighton Beach it would access both yards; if the A went from the Concourse to Far Rockaway it would only be able to access Concourse Yard.
Anyway, I am one Yankee fans from L.I. who for many years has uncomplainingly taken the A or #1 to Columbus Circle to pick up the D train. Another equally good alternative is to walk one block from Penn Station to 34th/Broadway/6th Ave. and get the D for an uninterrupted trip to the Bronx.
That wouldn't seem to be as much of a big deal if they opened the passageway from 6th to 7th, perhaps built a walkalator in it. Then you wouldn't have to go up to the street, and the D would be "connected" to Penn Station. without miving it to 8th Av.
I think it's a bit strange that 161st St. on the Concourse line was built as a local stop even though both the Woodlawn line and Yankee Stadium were already in place. My guess is that since the Concourse line has three tracks, making 161st an express stop would have defeated the purpose of having peak direction express service in the first place. Had it been built as a four-track line, chances are that 161st St. would have been made an express stop.
Remember that when the Concourse line was built (1933) there was no night baseball. All games were daytimes - between the rush hours on weekdays, and of course Saturdays and Sundays. Remember that during off peak periods the old "C" and post-1940 "D" trains stopped at 161st making all local stops north of 145th St.
Now with so much weekday night baseball, arriving at the Stadium for a weeknight game does indeed involve travelling during the PM peak.
Quite true. The Yankees installed lights in 1939 or 1940, I believe, but still played most of their games during the day for many years after that. The Cubs have that policy today; Wrigley Field has had lights for 10 years now, but they still play mostly day games.
Speaking of the Yankees, I remember seeing a hand-printed sign at one of the token booths at 42nd St.-8th Ave on a Saturday in the late 60s: "Game today - Yankee Stadium. Take uptown A to 59th St., change for the D to 161st." Something like that, anyway. They never did that when the there was a Met game, although I still remember the "Follow the Blue Arrow to Flushing trains and Shea Stadium" signs which were prominently displayed on the 42nd St. mezzanine.
Thanks, Steve. I did some quick research. The Yankees played their first night game on May 28, 1946 (vs. the Washington Senators, and lost the game, BTW). However, the majority of games were daytime until the 1960's.
I neglected to mention in my earlier posting that the Concourse subway line also served the Polo Grounds, the long time home of the Giants (until the end of the 1957 season), and then the Mets first home park (in 1962 and 1963). The Polo Grounds station, 155th/8th Ave., is identical in track and platform layout to 161st St. Express trains do not stop at 155th during weekday peaks (AM southbound, PM northbound).
The Polo Grounds had night baseball beginning in 1940, but World War II curtailed night games until 1946. Ebbets Field, the Dodgers home park, was the first New York stadium, and the second in the major leagues, to have night baseball (June, 1938).
We can thank Larry McPhail for bringing night baseball to the big leagues. I'm sure you're aware that the first night game at Ebbets Field featured Johnny VanderMeer's second consecutive no-hitter. BTW, Leo Durocher played in both the very first night game in Cincinnati and in Brooklyn. He even made the last out in the first night game in Brooklyn.
Anyway, the Concourse line did indeed serve the Polo Grounds. I'm curious as to why the pillars at 155th St.-8th Ave. are as massive as they are. Was it because the station had to underpin the el structure which existed at the time the line opened, or was it another example of IND getting fancy-schmancy with its overbuilding? I'll say one thing: if there was ever any reference to the Polo Grounds at that station, they did a good job at obliterating it. I always felt that that station looked very foreboding with incandescent-only lighting; even with fluorescent lighting, it still looks blah.
Here is a partial list of promotional Cards:
Starrett City (Two versions 1 each in English and Spanish_)
Virgin Entertainment
Banana Republic
Time Warner
And where can one obtain these cards? The last 'special' that I got was an ABC card with Micheal J Fox on it.
-=Hank
The Spin City card is an OLD one, maybe about a year.
The "Emigrant" series was avail. at that bank and some subway stations. Depending on how many were made, most subway stations sell them.
If you're a collector & have something to trade, send me a note & we'll swap my liquadated/expired cards for yours.
P.S. I don't have any of thoses mentioned yet.
P.P.S. (TA agent) Should you add NYU to your list ?
Mr t__:^)
Thanks Thurston. Add the NYU Card.
Anyway- Where can they be gotten?
I'd have to check the bulletins. E-mail me and I'll check for desired card(s) and I'll get back to you via e-mail
Starrett City? What are they promoting?
--Mark
I have one- I found the discarded card. They are promoting themselves--In other words Live in Starrett City.
You said one of the new MC w/graphics was "Time Warner", do you mean the "Montenx Jazz Festival" ? Got one today !
P.S. Folks will try & use the darnest things to get a free ride, found a City of Long Beach - Beach Pass amoung the discards. It's purple & no magnetic stripe on the back, now some of our drivers don't have 20 20 vision, but they're no blind !
Mr t__:^)
A-N-D one of our drivers just dropped off an "American Express/U.S. Open 1998" ... Word gets out when your a transit/collector nut !
This one wasn't on your short list, is it old or new from a sales standpoint ?
Mr t__:^)
The Time Warner card is for the Jazz Festival (One and the same). As Far as the "Tennis" card I have seen no bulletins for the card. Maybe)and I am* guessing*) it was only sold at Willets Point and/or maybe at Tennis Clubs throughout NYC.
I will post the list of cards and locations by next week.
I checked with my sources at PATH and the lights are as follows from top to bottom:
RED--Door open
GREEN--Emergency Brake
BLUE--Dead Car ( and based on personal observations- Hand Brake set)
YELLOW--Passenger Alert activated.
sorry for the delay in getting this info on the site.
Note to Dave P-- you might add this to the PATH section, complete with Colors- The blue is sort of a slate blue.
From the PATH PA type Operator's Manual:
RED: Doors open or unlocked
GREEN: Handbrake applied (formerly white)
BLUE: Dead car
YELLOW: (solid) Emergency brake pulled
YELLOW: (flashing) Passenger Alert activated
The reason for the color change for the handbrake is due to a modification program in which the incandescent bulbs in these units
are being replaced with LED's. Currently,white LED's are unavailable.
Also being replaced are the marker lights,interior guard lights,and the Conductor's indication lamps. The LED's are supposed to have a much longer life and require less maintenance.
Thanks. An official item always takes precedent over unwritten!!
If they are using blue LED's, the n white is possible by mixing all the colors. (It was the unavailability of blue that was also holding up white. Blue is now beginning to appear on certain CD and DVD players.)
Did anyone see the movie "Blade"? There is a scene with everyones old favorite movie car-R-30 #8408. Funniest subway I've ever seen, one without a third rail. I visited New York last Thursday and spent some time on the west side IRT. I was impressed with Penn Station-34th St.(I haven't been through it in almost 2 years).
Also, if one was willing to give up the Nassau St. pit tracks, is a station at Water St. possible on the J/M/Z coming off the Montague St. tunnel? The only problem I see is proximity to both the tunnel and maybe Broad St. station.
Does anyone know if the new connection will have concrete or wooden ties? Do any sections of the subway have concrete ties? Does the LIRR?
The LIRR is currently in the process of installing concrete ties on its main branch. They have been doing so for about the past year.
The most likely construction method will be 1/3 ties set in concrete, with a full tie every 5th to support the 3rd rail. Direct concrete attachment has been tried, and failed miserably in some places, and worked well in others. Concrete ties, to my knowledge, have never been used on the subway.
-Hank
Whenever I've seen concrete ties, they have always been in a ballast roadway, not a concrete roadway, the way the subway is primarily set up. Also, installing concrete ties is more time consuming than wood, in that tracks are taken out of service for installation for long periods of time,something the subway can't afford. Very true, concrete ties have a longer life span, but they also support high speed trains. Does the TA have high speed trains? We all know the answer.
Does anyone know the degree of the slant of the ramp the express trains take after 96th St. on the 1/9? I figure maybe, 10 degrees.
GACK! 10 degrees! That's 100*tan(10)=17.6% grade!
By way of comparison, the Steinway tubes, which are considered
steep, are 4.5 % grade.
WOOPS! 3%. Gotta remember that.
This weekend (Saturday) on my way to a country fair I stopped by The Branford Trolley Museum.
We boarded #775, mfg by Jewlette Car Co for Branford, it has never left the line in the past 94 years, she's aged well.
I picked up a flyer about "NY Days" Oct 10th & 11th. Nice B&W of Red Bird 6688 from #6, R-1 1699 from GG, PCC & some older cars. I saw the Redbird & R-1, but the only PCC was a "Dallas Car" (thanks Todd) from SEPTA that needs a lot of work. Our conductor/guide likes his job very well ... he tryed the bell on every car we passed. My daughter said he reminded her of Mr Rogers ... I liked his tour just the same, thanks Jim !
P.S. to our bus fans: I saw two Nova-artriculated near the #6 & a Man from Liberty comming South.
P.P.S. To our Boston weather man, your report was better than the traffic one as he missed a slowdown goning North & a big accident going South on 95. 1010 Wins wasn't much better, only knowing of the slow down ... yes I channel surf on the radio too !
Mr t__:^)
I realize this was covered in a prior thread, by I never got a handle on the answer. If lightning hits a metal subway car grounded to a metal rail, would the passengers get a jolt?
I thought about this on my way home from work during the big storm yesterday. More lightning bolts than I had ever seen at once were hitting on both sides of the F train as it climbed up the Gowanus Canal viaduct. It occurred to me that I was holding onto a steel pole bolted to a steel frame with a steel roof, etc. And once we pulled out of the station, we were the highest thing for a couple of hundred feet in each direction.
So what would have happened if a bolt hit the car?
The subway car will act like a Faraday Cage. The electricity will travel across the outer skin of the car, and take the fastest path to ground -- which is into the rails. Passengers inside the car will not get a jolt (but vibration/noise will be mighty!).
On the other side of the coin, if the train was in the station on an elevated (or open cut :-), and someone on the platform was in some way touching the metal outside of the car, that's another story...
Your SubTalk meteorologist,
Todd
(The lightning would travel on the outside of the car, and the passengers would not be jolted).
Not that I don't trust your word enough to grab that metal pole with confidence next time, but does anyone know of a case where this actually occured?
I went looking on the Web for a good definition of a Faraday Cage. Here's the first one that I found:
The Faraday Cage Effect (named after its discoverer) means that the electric charge on a conductor sits on the outer surface of it. Therefore, no electrostatic field is present within the conductor.
(Chuckle.) What about the motorman? (End chuckle.)
Seriously, the shell of the car is the conductor, and the Faraday Cage effect means that there is no charge within it. Including a pole.
The Faraday cage is an idealized approximation which holds
absolutely true if and only if the volume is entirely enclosed
by a conducting surface, and that surface is a perfect conductor.
If either condition is violated, there will be some degree of
"leakage" of the electric field across the cage.
In the case of a subway car being struck directly by lightning,
there is little danger of direct electrocution to a passenger
within the car since they are far from an optimal path to
ground. The greater danger is of burns from the large flow of
current in all the metal structures surrounding the passenger.
Induction may also pose a risk to sensitive electronics within
the car, or to passengers with pacemakers.
I am not aware of any documented cases of injury to a passenger
within a subway car struck by lightning.
Induction would pose a threat, but then, it would pose a threat anyway. Burns, I'm not sure of, as the the outside of a car provides quite a large conductor to ground. The only burn source I could think of is if you were leaning against the door, or walls. I really wouldn't worry about it anyway, as I've never heard of this happening. You are more likely to get mugged, squished, blownup, burnt, etcx, than to get zapped by lightning in the subway.
A direct lightning hit inside the subway would be
news indeed! Out in the open, there are far more attractive
targets to draw the lightning away, such as the steel
structure and signal masts. On systems (obviously not NYC transit)
with overhead wire, strikes to the overhead line are a very
real and frequent threat and can cause damage to cars' electrical
equipment if not protected against.
Hi all,
I wanted to mention the new "banner ad" for the Shore Line Trolley Museum's New York Days which now appears on SubTalk and the main page for the site.
The presence of the ad is not a change to paid advertising on this site. You're not going to see commercial advertisements here like for credit cards, long distance service, and porno web sites. :-) I'm "donating" the space to them until the NY Days event. Perhaps future transit-related events will be announced this way but I am not actively soliciting such ads.
As the web master of the site I'm committed to keeping the site non-commercial.
-Dave
Dave, Saw the train in your banner this past weekend up there. I also remeber riding a woody like it on the Myrtle Ave line.
Mr t__:^)
Knowing the Trolley Museum 'Industry' from the inside, I know Shore Line needs all the exposure they can get. I hope the plug brings them some customers and some support!
Gerry
I just spent a weekend up in Boston and had the occasion to take the Orange Line through the Southwest Corridor. The tokens I got were labeled as "Metropolitan Transportation Authority". I instantly thought of NYC's MTA as the source of these tokens. But looking through the MBTA website, it seems that prior to 1964, they were called MTA as well. I didn't know if these tokens were made imported from New York or if they were old native artifacts.
BTW, I liked Downtown Crossing's station.. It had a classic look similar to New York's, but was not run down by any means. The cars themselves could probably use an inside facelift.
Nope, The tokens in Boston were always unique:
- Thru 1951 reads: Metro... Transit Auth... - One Fare
- Thru 1988 reads: Mass... Bay Trans... Auth... - MBTA - T
one side has a "T" the other a subway car
- Issued 1992 reads: Mass... Bay Trans... Auth - T
back photo: sail & waves plus "Boston 1-9-9-2"
- Also in use: Mass... Port Auth... Logan Airport Massport
(photo of airplane), back reads: Ground Transport Token Value One Trip Massport (photo of airplane & logo)
There were also a number of others, details lifted from AVA catalog of transit tokens in the US (I'm a member in good standing).
P.S. I too was fooled for a while by this token !
Mr t__:^)
I am very sure I had the 1951 variety in... it's age was showing.
My brother's token was a 1988 MBTA type.
Thanks Mr. t.
> There were also a number of others, details lifted from AVA catalog > of transit tokens in the US (I'm a member in good standing).
What is the AVA?
The American Vecturist Association.
Vecturist refers to one who collects transportation-related tokens.
I don't have the address or other details at the moment. Wonder if they have a web site?
If interested in joining the AVA write: John M. Coffee, Jr.
PO Box 1204 Boston MA 02104. Membership, by sponsor, I'm happy to offer myself (member #2722). Half year $8.50. Most recent catalog, 1996, with 870 pages is $30 if ordered at time of membership appl., otherwise it's $45. OR e-mail me & i'll snail-mail you an application. They issue a monthly newsletter, The Fare Box.
They're into any "TT", i.e. Transportation Token. The catalog includes EVERY TT that existed in the US & includes a number of TTs from Canada & various foreign countries. They also include Carrousels if the token says "ride" on it somewhere. In addition there is a sub-group interested in "parking tokens".
Web site ... I don't think so.
Mr t__:^)
I'm a daily rider of the Orange line and in my honest opinion, the cars are the ugliest I have ever seen. They are supposed to be buying more cars to suplement the fleet, but I think that will happen around the same time the Dudley Square replacement rapid transit service is built. I think these and a bunch of other unfulfilled promises are part of a lawsuit against the MBTA, though I can't remember if they're being sued by the Commonwealth of MA or some other organization.
Subways, streetcars and re-built used buses are alive and well in Toronto!
Just spent the LONG Labour Day Weekend in the Transit Mecca of the North. Subway was running on a 3 to 4 minute headway early afternoon Friday - before rush hour. A streetcar was almost always in sight. ALSO, for the bus fan’s, it looks like the TTC is going to be the fishbowl bus capital. It has been rebuilding its own fleet, and has recently taken possession of Montreal buses. These are to be rebuilt and have an estimated life of 14 more years.
The Spadina Line is doing very good, however, it seemed TTC inspectors had problems all weekend keeping a "balanced" service. Short turn cars and service gaps were abundant. A new loop is to be built using Adelaide Street to make more turning options available. Ridership UP 15% over that of the buses that were replaced!
Although though the TTC service isn’t what it was in the 1970’s, when I was first introduced to it, it is still very good by North American standards.
If you like riding subways, streetcars and re-built buses, take a trip up North. You will not be disappointed.
NOTE - TTC offers a Day-Pass for CAD$6.50, which is good after 9:30 AM on weekdays, all day Saturday, and Sunday. On Sunday, two adults can use one Day-Pass. At the current rate of exchange, approximately 65%, the Day-Pass is a GREAT bargain at US$4.25.
No doubt Toronto has a great system, BUT let's not forget what the real transit mecca of North Amercia is. In 1990, 53 percent of the 300,000 people working in downtown Toronto used transit. But 74 percent of the 1.8 million people working the Manhattan CBD used transit, and many of the others walked or worked at home. I'd bet the proportions for non-work trips, though less in both cities, is proportionately higher in New York. Downtown Chicago's "Expanded CBD" also came in with a slightly higher transit percent than Toronto, as did Downtown Brooklyn. Toronto is the only Canadian city for which I have data.
My guess is that Toronto made a political decision in favor of transit, which results in great service supported by deep subsidies. New York made a political decision against transit which lasted 30 years, but transit remained #1 anyway because it is an essential part of what allows the city to be what it is.
It's nice to have a traditional downtown streetcar system and great subway service.
It would also be nice to have els, expresses and all night service which we don't.
Toronto is the only transit city that I am aware of that scraps 25 year old subway cars and buys 20 year old busses!
Go figure.
BTW the subsidy level is relatively low.
Around 25% I think.
Toronto also bought many secondhand PCCs, If I'm not mistaken.
BTW, the first streetcar (and trolley bus) I ever saw in my life was in Toronto in 1963. My impression was that the city was CRAWLING with streetcars back then, and I was all of 6 years old! What can you say after you've seen a ton of streetcars within half an hour or so?
I'll say this much: Toronto made a very wise decision to keep its streetcars.
Your impression was correct. Toronto indeed had a fleet of over 750 PCCs at that time. Many were purchased second hand from Cincinnati, Cleveland, Kansas City, Birmingham and Pittsburgh.
Between 1966 when the Bloor subway opened and 1975, the streetcar system diminished rapidly. Streetcars were replaced by subways, busses and trolley busses. In the early 1970's the TTC seriously considered abandoning its streetcar stystem altogether.
Obviously the TTC was persauded to by a new fleet of LRVs. The fact that the TTC built a new surface line (harbourfront / Spadina) that is scheduled to be extended to the exhibition, shows that streetcars are safe in Toronto for now.
The trolleybus was not so lucky. The aging fleet of 1947 Brill coaches (with 1970's Flyer bodies) was replaced for economic reasons in 1991 with diesel busses.
There is talk from time to time about abandoning streetcars in Toronto. With the present General Manager, David Gunn, in control this could be more than just talk. He was partly responsible for dismantling the Philadelphia network save for the subway surface lines.
An observation, the track and overhead is in the BEST shape since I've been visiting Toronto in 1970.
My cousin was telling me about how streetcar lines were being removed left and right in the early 70s, and that they were going to keep maybe one or two lines for old time's sake.
There were many lines abandoned when the Bloor-Danforth Subway was opened in 1966. However, there are still the following services in Toronto:
501 Queen
502 Downtowner (rush hour only)
503 Kingston Rd (6 AM-6 PM Weekdays)
504 King
505 Dundas
506 Carlton
508 Long Branch (rush hours only - operated as 501 Queen at other times)
510 Spadina/Harbour Front
511 Bathurst
512 St. Clair
521 Exhibtion service (operated during the CNE)
There are 196 CLRV's (Canadian Light Rail Vehicles) and 52 (Articulated Light Rail Vehicles) needed to operate the above listed lines.
Currently, I think TTC operates the largest fleet of streetcars in North America.
I don't think any Toronto PCC's came from Pittsburgh. I believe Pittsburgh's hung on until the end, with the massive abandonments in the mid-60's, and then were retired, except for the last two orders (1600's and 1700's) which remained until the 80's.
Also, keep in mind that Toronto sold some of these to Phila and SF in the mid-70's. Some may have also gone to Shaker Heights.
I stand corrected about the Pittsburgh PCCs.
As for David Gunn, he has focused his anger on the Sheppard subway line (stump, really) and the new low floor busses the TTC had to buy. It looks like streetcars are safe for now.
It was gratifying to see that an anti-streetcar letter which appeared in the Toronoto Star's letters to the editor this summer, drew many responses defending streetcars.
Let's hope the sentiment continues. It won't be too long before the CLRVs will have to be replaced at considerable cost.
Got to say, since David Gunn has taken some knocks in this thread, that he was great for New York. I was there when the amount of time it took to order a spare part went from six months (!) to two days. I credit him with making the TA the best run public agency in the city.
After just coming back from a weekend of streetcar riding in Toronto, I'd say that the CLRV has many, or at least 15 years left. If the TTC continues to apply their usual high degree of maintenance it should be NO problem. They were delivered in the 1980's. And if past history means anything, look how long they used the PCC's.
I have no complaints about David Gunn. I agree that building half a subway line (which may never be compelted) is a waste of money. He is also right about the new busses. The province made the TTC buy low floor busses from Orion that have only 29 seats! That is why Gunn has bought all those used fishbowls from Montreal.
As for the CLRVs, they were delivered between April 77 and April 81, so they still have a while yet. But, the H2 subway cars, which were bought in 1973 are about yo be replaced so who knows?
From what I have heard the TTC has had many more troubles with the Articluated streetcars delivered between 87 and 89 than the CLRVs.
From what I hear the TTC will probably not abandon the Streetcars, like was said before, due to public sentiment and also due to the investment put into the system in recent years-->I was in Toronto this summer and rode the new Spadina Light rail line and I also noticed TTC Crews replacing old streetcar track as well.
Larry, let me put it this way. Isn't better to choose mass transit because it is the BETTER alternative rather than using mass transit because it is the ONLY alternative.
Lets face it, if people in New York City could drive, they would drive, and the subway system would be then be shunned.
(Better to use transit because you want to than because you have to). You have a point there. Of course in NYC they can drive, they just can't park. But many people don't drive because they have one car instead of two, or zero cars instead of none. That's an advantage you get here -- and in Toronto. BTW, the planning profession tends to point to Toronto as the urban ideal. Several prominent planning theorists have made their statement by moving there.
I'd like to see Toronto, but its a little out of driving range with the kids. We might try a trip to Montreal in November, in which case I'll get to check out its subway system.
For a streetcar fan, I can understand the appeal of Toronto and the TTC. I've been to Toronto several times and taken advantage of their extensive streetcar system. However, it seemed to me that Toronto was desperately in need of more subway lines. A city of about 4 million needs more than 2 lines - no matter how short the headways are. I rarely ever took the subway because it was almost never convenient to where I was going. Street cars did serve those areas, but they were so limited by heavy traffic that It was usually just as fast to walk. (try getting from Spadina to Church on Queen on any weekend night).
Also, regional transit for Toronto, the GO, runs a very limited schedule. Philadelphia has a better regional transit system with more lines and more frequent off peak service.
On the topic of Canada, Montreal has a wonderful subway that has 4 lines and covers the city much more extensively than the TTC does in Toronto. I would hardly call Toronto the transit Mecca of Canada, let alone Norh America.
In terms of frequency of service and ease of use, Toronto indeed has most other cities beat!
Keep in mind that the system is designed to move people around the city, the TTC does this well with their two subway lines and "in station" transfer arrangements.
If your destination is close just walk, like I did.
I want to know if you know what other city in North America offers 5 minute headways on the subway on Sunday morning at 10 AM?
Amen! You are correct! It is sad that the tracklesses are gone, but it certainly is heaven for the transit fan.
Two interesting stories - my wife and I have been to Toronto twice. The first time, we stayed at the Carlton Inn. It was a long walk from the front door on Carlton St to the College stop of the Yonge subway, where we often started our days. On one particular day, we came out of the hotel and saw a Carlton/College car a couple of blocks away. We were going to catch the car to go somewhere. Determined, we began running toward Yonge St. When we got there, about 5 seconds ahead of the car, a newsstand operator told us, "You don't run for the cars here - no need", and pointed back to two more in sight down the line. He was right.
On the same trip, we went out one night to visit Chinatown. I knew we could go down the Yonge line and loop back up the University side to one of the stops and get close, or take the Carlton/College car and the (then) Spadina bus to get closer. Since it was at night, and we would be returning late, I asked the hotel desk clerk about his recommendations. He advised us to take the subway. When I noted that we might be travelling late, he responded, "You must be from the US. Here, the subway's crowded and safe all the time." He was right too.
One note - I saw an RTS painted in TTC colors and carrying a "Ride the Rocket" electronic sign headed east on I-70 in Illinois on 8/28. Was this coming from TMC's Roswell plant? Is TTC buying RTS's? Why US made?
I have often thought how neat (and incredibly slow) it would be to be able to jump from Washington (or just south thereof actually) to Boston (or just north thereof actually) using only commuter rail.
Needless to say it probably would never happen.. but here's how it would go and where the problems would lie:
Begin
Richmond (well if VRE's Fredericksburg line was extended)
Fredericksburg to Washington Union Station (VRE - Fredericksburg line)
Washington Union Station to Perryville (MARC - Penn Line)
Perryville to Wilmington (if MARC's line was extended)
Wilmington to Philadelphia 30th Street Station (SEPTA - R2 Line)
Philadelphia 30th Street Station to Trenton (SEPTA - R7 Line)
Trenton - New York Penn Station (New Jersey Transit - Northeast Corridor Line)
New York Penn Station - New York Grand Central (Metro North YEAH RIGHT!)
New York Grand Central - New Haven (Metro North - New Haven Line)
New Haven - New London (Shore Line East)
New London - Providence (doesn't exist =( )
Providence - Boston South Station (MBTA - Providence Line)
Now isn't that a coincidence ... one of the tales that Jim at Branford told this Saturday was how a Trolley nut used to be able to do just that. Oh course being a Trolley nut he rode from Me to Del & there was only one 20 walk required in the whole trip.
Mr t__:^)
Actually a rider could go quite a ways north of Boston using this routing as one of the MBTA lines runs to Rockport. I believe that' s the northernmost line.
Right now the longest gap in the routing is New London-Providence. I've heard that many years ago, Boston commuter trains ran as far as Westerly, which is only about 15 miles from New London.
There has been talk of extending MBTA service to the T.F. Green (Providence) airport, though I don't know if there's even a station built there.
It seems that the media has hopped onto the cutback of train conductors and safety concerns in light of the rape two nights ago on the G train in Brooklyn. Supposedly the suspect got off at Hoyt and raped someone by a bus stop.
Anyone willing to place odds that the conductors are returned?
It's a shame that a crime and a tragedy IS and WILL be used as a political football. If this tragic criminal attack had taken place in an elevator (as many do) would there be a call to return elevator operators to all self-service elevators in the city? Rape is a crime of opportunity and given all of the dark tunnels corridors and tunnel nooks, it is impossible to protect each and every customer on the system. Am I saying we should accept this as inevidable? Absolutely not!! We should fight as a society against crime but let's not lose site of where the blame is.
Well said...
Just as easy to say that this proves we should shut the subway down in the middle of the night and run buses on the surface instead, to ensure visibility and safety. Except that the subsequent rape at a bus stop defeats both the conductor and the surface arguments.
You do not shut down the subway at night because of a crime. It is like saying scrap your car because it needs a new wiper motor.
As the previous post said, crime can happen at a bus stop too and I do not hear talk of no bus at night!
NYCT is trying to improve safety. NYCT stresses for riders to ride in the car with the conductor or the train operator. Any person riding in a car by themselves with no crew member is taking a risk but then we take a risk everytime we cross the street. In Memphis once a car made a left turn at a high rate of speed and crashed into a bus shelter bench, killing a person waiting for the bus.
I do not condone crime but in any society there are misfits and those who prey on others.
**opinions expressed are my own and not those of MTA or NYCT**
[It seems that the media has hopped onto the cutback of train conductors and safety concerns in light of the rape two nights ago on the G train in Brooklyn. Supposedly the suspect got off at Hoyt and raped someone by a bus stop.]
I'm not familiar with the facts of this case, but it does strike me as odd that it's assumed that the presence of a conductor could have changed anything. Subway conductors aren't security guards and in any event can't observe every car of every train.
Exactly. Except for the minor detail that had the victim been in a car with a conductor, or in the first car of the train, it is very likly that either the rape would not have occured, or it would be stopped. (or, if the perp had a weapon, you could have dead people...)
The point is not that the trains 'need a conductor', the point is that riders late at night and during off hours need to learn more about ensuring their personal safety.
-Hank
If any one here has the NXSYS subway simulator, I'm looking for more interlockings for it, I have tried to make my own and can't seem to get them to work. If any one here has interlockings that they have made themsleves please email me.
I've seen a whole pile of Subtalk postings on this subject, and since I was planning on taking my girlfriend through the loop this weekend to show her the old station, I was wondering if anyone knows DEFINITIVELY one way or the other whether you can still go through the loop?
As per new operating rules, no passangers (customers) are premitted in the Loop.
If you can get a nice train operator or conductor to look the other way or hasn't read the notice or whatever you call it, good luck. Not that I would promote breaking any law/rule or such it is just a shame they TA changed their collective mind once more.
(I've been a few times throught the loop, loved telling the operator (very nicely) to call command to verify I could travel through the loop). But alas no more...
it amazes me how TA changes its mind on rules regarding customers on relay trains. To my knowledge customers are not allowed on relay moves which makes sense including the loop at City Hall. Its a shame that while Brooklyn Bridge/City Hall on the 6 was the exception to the rule that there was a fatality, passengers were allowed to ride the relay through City Hall to the uptown track. My thinking this was done to speed up the move once a train has discharged to relay north.
Hence all trains relayed no matter how short the move is considered a yard move and CUSTOMERS are not allowed!
I knew I shouldn't have put off riding around that loop. It's one of those situations in which you think, "I'll do it next time". Bummer. Hopefully, the station will be opened soon as part of the Transit Museum. Does anyone know when?
I heard a story that to reopen that station one minor yet very expensive matter would have to be worked out: Building an elevator for access under the terms of The Americans With Disabilities Act.
A number of weeks ago, an individual who went by the handle
"THE PROFESSOR" posted a statement regarding the inshot valve
(an air brake component) in first-generation SMEE equipment.
He cited a reference which I vowed to check out. I have done
so, and it appears he was right, sort of.
According to the Westinghouse Air Brake Co. Instruction Pamphlet
#5063-7, my copy dated November 1961, page 41:
The inshot valve supplies air pressure to the brake cylinder
at a minimum value during all dynamic braking and also furnishes
supplemental air braking during dynamic brake operation if dynamic
is not able to provide the maximum service rate.
I will paraphrase and summarize the rest of the complex technical
description. In "first-generation" SMEE (R10-R36), the inshot
valve allows a small amount of straight air pipe pressure (8-10 psi)
to leak past it, flow through the variable load valve, and into the brake
cylinder. The inshot valve also has a "supplementary"
air pressure feature. Above a certain straight air pipe pressure,
it allows some additional air to leak past. As long as the propulsion
circuit indicates that the dynamic brake has not faded out, the lock-out
magnet valve remains energized and this inshot pressure is all that arrives
at the brake cylinder. When the LOM de-energizes, the full straight-air
pressure flows through the LOM valve, is limited by the variable load
valve according to load weight, and is delivered to the cylinder.
Referring to the following table taken from this document:
R10-R15R16-R22R26-R30
Inshot pressure8-108-108-10
Dyn Brake Actuator starts to move (S.A.P.)23-2723-2723-27
Dyn Brake Actuator full movement (S.A.P.)56-5857-5957-59
Inshot supplementary air starts (S.A.P.)62-6462-6459-61 or 75
Inshot supplementary pressure @ full service16-2322-2821-27
or 10
Variable Load Bypass Valve Setting (B.C.P.)67-7073-7564-66
FULL SERVICE
Straight Air Pipe72-7578-8074-76
Brake Cylinder Pressure, Empty Car73-7578-8069-71
Brake Cylinder Pressure, Loaded Car73-7578-8069-71
EMERGENCY
Straight Air Pipe110110110
Brake Cylinder Pressure, Empty Car73-7578-8069-71
Brake Cylinder Pressure, Loaded Car95-100102-10698-102
We can see that the dynamic brake actuator, which is moved by the
straight air pipe pressure and which directs the propulsion circuits
as to the strength of dynamic braking requested, maxes out at about 60psi.
That leaves another 15 psi of service range to go. Under this system, the
supplemental inshot pressure kicks in at this point and brings the inshot
pressure from 10 psi up to a maximum of 23-28 (depending on car model).
This additional pressure provides further braking effort beyond the dynamic.
Under "true" or "first-generation" SMEE, the variable load valve does not
have separate emergency and service sections (as is the case with the
"second-generation" RT-2 and NewTran systems). The VLV acts to limit the
pressure delivered to the cylinder. This limit starts to kick in at the
"bypass valve setting" given in the table above, and the value of the
limit depends on car loading. We see that in an empty car, the brake
cylinder pressure in emergency is no greater than in full service, while
on a fully-loaded car, emergency pressure is approx 95-105 psi
as opposed to approx 70-80 psi in full service.
Now, all of this is mostly historical. The first generation SMEEs are all
gone or retrofitted with newer braking packages, except those Flushing
33 and 36 cars that were overhauled in the mid-80s and not subsequently
GOH'd. (Any other passenger cars still carrying these A-1 pneumatic units?)
On the newer brake systems, the inshot valve does not have a supplemental
air feature. In either case, the removal of the inshot valve
would not have any effect on emergency braking. You'll notice that the brake cylinder
pressures cited here are much higher than on current cars, however,
that's an apples-oranges comparison because of composition shoes.
I'm presenting these facts here merely for the sake of presenting them,
and not drawing any conclusions about relative braking performance.
Jeff - For you and the Professor and hopefully for the last time - NO.
If you go back far enough you can find writings that state the world is flat. You can find more recent writings that challenge evolution. There are hundreds of books which are now discredited by current knowledge and technology. Citing information about an air brake system that no longer exists, is misleading and irresponsible. The original contention was that the TA has modified the Air Brake systems of all subway car and has made them unsafe. For the last time, this is not the case. The inshot valve, which once had a dual purpose, on RT-2, RT-5 and NYAB systems had but one. That function was deemed obsolete and was eliminated. The result of all of the TAs 'tinkering' with air brake systems has been a fleet of cars that have braking curves that match (or excede) the braking performance of pre-modified cars. I've Challenged the Professor to cite his credentials and prove his case. He has not done so. Please do not try to peddle that stale snake oil. SMEE is gone and the argument is moot.
Actually Steve I made none of the contentions you cited. That
was the PROFESSOR. I was merely verifying his reference and
providing further context to understand and interpret it.
Specifically, I raised the following points:
1) The supplemental air function of the inshot valve applied
to original SMEE schedule air brakes.
2) All of the current passenger fleet uses a newer schedule air
brake in which the inshot valve does not have this function.
2a) Therefore, removal of the inshot valve on this equipment had no significant effect on braking effort.
3) Direct comparisons of full-service and emergency brake
cylinder pressures between the older and current
equipment would be misleading.
4) This was a question: what brake equipment is under the
Flushing 33s and 36s?
Anecdotally, motormen who operated both the older equipment (e.g.
R10s) and the current stuff report that the former had superior
braking performance. I am an engineer and I don't believe anecdotes
unless they can be substantiated by measurable results though.
I was responding to your poting heading of "Was the professor correct". Sorry if you thought I was critical of you although my last comment could have been construed as such. I read your information and have no argument with the content.
Usually when a train operator complains about a train being 'poor braking', what they are really saying is that he or she did not have the equipment under control. As for the anecdotal comments, I have the graphs and date to dispute any train operators' claim on most every contract car currently in service.
Perhaps a more interesting slant to this subject would be
"The Good Old Days". It's a recurring theme among railfans
that "the old equipment that they got rid of was much better
than this new crap". From the standpoint of a transit professional,
the cars are just tools to be used in the performance of the
mission of the organization, viz. to provide safe, reliable
and cost-effective transportation to the public.
A railfan wears rose-colored glasses when it comes to the past, as
evidenced by recent threads here (R62s vs redbirds....R10s)
We tend to overlook certain factors, like the fact that the
R10s were hot and noisy, or the body rot on the current redbirds.
We forget that fleet MDBF over the past 5 years is possibly
the highest it has ever been since records have been kept.
There are aesthetic issues that I think even the most stubborn
transit manager can't argue with, but then again would she or
he bother to argue? Aesthetics hardly seem to be a concern to
the transit (or indeed the railroad) industry as a whole for the
past 40 or so years.
When we come back to basic stop and go performance, though, there
are measurable quantities to check our nostalgic memories. Let's
confine discussion to post-war cars. Were the older cars faster?
Well, field-shunt mods notwithstanding, no, they were not. Heavier
cars at 400hp were not quicker than lighter cars at 460hp. Even one
die-hard R-10 fan motorman I know had to admit that the R62s (when
new) blew the doors off anything else.
What about braking? I remember when the R32s came back from GOH.
Motormen used to be able to come blasting into a particular station, shutoff right at the station portal, take not even a full-service
application, be able to graduate off the application to make a
smooth stop at the 6-car marker. The GOH R32 cars at full-service
from the same shut-off point nearly overran the station.
Now, that is what I call an "anecdote". As an engineer, you learn
not to take anecdotal reports from end-users at face value, but
you also learn that there is usually something at work there.
Part of the perception that the older cars stopped better was due to
their cast-iron shoes, vs the composition shoes of today. The
coefficient of friction of cast iron shoes increases roughly
two-fold in going from 40 MPH to 10MPH, and two-fold again between
10MPH and 0. Making a full-service application with cast-iron
equipment and leaving the handle there meant a stop that felt harder
and harder as the train slowed down. In constrast, composition
shoes experience only a 120% increase in friction from 40 to 10
MPH, and then a 140% increase between 10 and 0. A much milder stop.
Does that translate into a longer stopping distance? Depends.
Gotta do the math. Double-integrate the acceleration (which
is a function of velocity) .
I know after the WB incident, the TA did extensive stopping
distance tests on all cars in the fleet. It would be interesting
to make an apples-to-apples comparision of stopping distances
of e.g. an 8 car train at AW3 on level tangent dry rail from
an initial speed of 10,20,30,40 MPH at full-service and emergency,
between say an R10 and an R42, or more to the point, between
a GOH'd R32 and a pre-GOH R32.
Oh, and I still have an unresolved factual question: The youngest
redbirds were the first to be GOHd. The R33s and R36 cars were
done in the early 1980s. I recall that it was not as thorough
an overhaul as later cars. Do these cars still have the original
SMEE-type A-1A pneumatic units or were they upgraded to RT-2 or
NewTran?
According to my reference material, the brake equipment in the R-33/36 overhaul is called WABCO SMEE. However, I know for a fact that they are not true smee brake packages. For one thing, the variable load has been replaced by a load sensor. I will find out exactly what they are called, after the weekend.
I notice 35 pair (70 cars) of Arrow II cars are O/S pending disposition. Questions: Weren't these cars originally numbered in the 500 & 600 series, and took the place of the remaining MP54's? I don't think those cars are that old. Why were they retired by NJT so soon? Doesn't SEPTA still use the exact same model on their electric lines? I saw several Arrow II's in storage near Harrison recently. I am not impressed by their replacements. My sons & I rode NJT from NYP to Morristown on Labor Day. Apparently, NJT uses ALP 44's w/ Comet IV's there. We liked the coaches except for one thing: pink walls. Too feminine. The ALP 44's have very slow & sometimes bucking accelleration, yet since some of the stations are so close together, the engines are not being used to their fullest potential. AMTRAK uses identical AEM 7's. While also slow accellerating, at least they are not operated stop & go and are able to get up to some speed due to AMTRAK stations far, far apart.
Oh yeah, that "Barbie" interior sure has to go.
I think it's supposed to have a calming effect, which might be a good thing for me given how much I hate NJT....
Hey, is the engineer even *allowed* to read a newspaper while driving the train?
Loco hauled trains slower than MUs? What else is new?
Why are locomotive-hauled trains being used on the Morristown line? That line is supposed to be fully electrified, no? And since the connection is between two electrified corridors, that should be electrified too. Or am I missing something?
ALP 44 locos ARE electric. The coaches can be used on diesel-pulled or electric-pulled trains (savings for NJT not having to maintain two coach fleets in the long run). The ALP-44 is able to handle the dual voltage on the M&E portion and the PRR portion of the route. The EMU cars cannot switch voltage on the fly (but can be done in the shop, so that the EMU cars can be assigned to either division). I suspect NJT won't be buying any more EMU cars and will instead go with the ALP-44 and Comet coach solution. (The ALP-44's look very similar to Amtrak's AEM-7 if you are trying to get a mental image.) There are some pictures at http://www.nycsubway.org/commuter/.
Is the switch from MU to locomotive-propelled coaches going to be a trend among all commuter rr's? If I remember correctly Metra (the Maryland commuter rail system) does something similar. Any chance Metro-North and even the LIRR will adopt this?
The Maryland Rail Commuter system is operated by MARC, who has never used MU cars. EVER!!!!
Metra is the Chicago
Oops!! Attention got diverted.
Metra is the Chicago Rail Commuter Operator and the "parent" to CTA.
That's what I meant to say.
Does Anyone know the technical Spec's for the Arrow II and ALP-44 ?
What Is the Top Allowed speed for an ALP-44 ?
-Philip D.
Metra is the Chicago commuter rail system. Except for the Metra Electric line, which uses MU bi-level coaches, the Metra system is diesel and uses locomotives pulling bi-level coaches.
However, a certain percentage of the coaches have an engineer's cab, which can control the locomotive remotely. These coaches can be placed on the end of the train, and a train that leaves the city locomotive-first can, instead of being turned around at the suburban terminal for the run back to the city, be operated from the other end. In fact, it's typical for trains to do just that: go outbound loco-first and come inbound coach-first.
This presents a small safety problem: some people crossing tracks can think a train which is actually coming towards them is going away because they can see the coaches and not the locomotive. All the Metra safety fliers point out that a train can have either the locomotive or a coach at the front end regardless of which direction the train is headed.
John & other Chicagons,
That's a very odd way to run a railroad. On the LIRR they put a engine at both ends, even on the short trains. The only exception are the diesels that turn around. Is there some reason for the engine on one end vs. the other ? Do they need it to push/pull, i.e. the cars with cabs don't have enough power/aren't actually self-pwr ?
Mr t__:^)
The cars with the cabs are not self-powered -- the cab is strictly a remote control for the locomotive, and, except for the lights and horn required to be at the head of a train, otherwise there is no difference between the cab coaches and the non-cab coaches. The only power for the train comes from the locomotive.
The advantage of push-pull, as stated earlier, is that it eliminates the need to turn trains around at the suburban termini, which may be a function of space -- the terminal of most Metra lines is in the downtown of a substantially-sized "satellite city" (Waukegan or Kenosha, Elgin, Geneva, Aurora, Joliet). The only reason I can figure why they pull the train (loco first) outbound and push it (loco last) inbound, as opposed to the other way around, is that having the locomotive at the head of the train at the downtown terminal facilitates loading of passengers -- if the train were the other way around, passengers would have to walk past the loco to get to the first coach. Also, having the loco in front in the downtown termini would seriously raise the sound level in the station building versus having the loco at the far end from the station building.
John, Thanks for the update !
I guess the reason that the LIRR doesn't do this on the short trains is simple, the old pass cars don't have operating controls in them. They have been slated for retirement for YEARS now. The proof is the very old FA/PAs, from Alco in the 50's I believe, that they actually went out and bought (they were much cheeper than new & were thought to be needed for only a short time). In any case it was a pleasure for guys like me to watch the old streamliners. Unfortunately maint. & paint seems to have been neglected of late.
Mr t__:^)
LIRR is actually the exception, with the two locomotives on a train. (even so I think only one is for motive power, the other is for head-end power and cab control). NJ Transit, MBTA in Boston, SEPTA, Metro-North, etc. all do push/pull using locomotives and unmotored coaches.
-Dave
That's why I thought they were PAs (pass) vs. FAs (freight). A very distinctive engine in any case ! Mr t__:^)
Amtrak makes fairly extensive use of push-pull trains on short-haul intercity services. The new California Cars (San Diegan, Capitol, and San Joaquin routes) include coaches with control cabs, and some Amfleet and Horizon Fleet trains use depowered Metroliners as control cabs in San Diegan service, as well as on Midwestern routes such as Chicago-Detroit and Chicago-Milwaukee
In the last couple of years before Amtrak, Chicago & North Western also had push-pull equipment in intercity operations. In 1970, for example, I rode the remnants of the Peninsula 400 from Menominee, Michigan, to Chicago, with a couple of 1958-vintage intercity bilevels sandwiched between a suburban control coach at the south end and an E8 at the north end. Passengers were not permitted in the control coach, due to concern over grade-crossing accidents--a concern which never seems to have bothered the North Western in its suburban territory, where one would think there would have been many more opportunities for collisions
Don't know much about the Morristown Line, but on the North Jersey Coast Line which is electrified until Long Branch, it is not uncommon to have diesel trains, especially during rush hours. The diesels originate mostly from Hoboken (Waterfront Connection) and 1 from Newark, and often continue to Bay Head without making passengers switching trains at Long Branch.
-JB who incidently gets pissed off when the 5:52 Southbound Diesel comes through Red Bank and causes the traffic lights to unfavor my direction of travel on Rt. 35. and then incidently forces me to wait while the 5:56 northbound (of mostly Comet IV and ALP-44 equipment, occasional Arrow III MU) comes through 2 minutes later making me sit at the damn traffic light for often 7-8 minutes!
Why not take the train? I think that's a pretty good sign....
-Hank
[Why not take the train? I think that's a pretty good sign....
-Hank ]
I don't take the train because I'm a suburb-suburb commuter... i.e. Northern Middletown (~5 miles from Middletown train station) where I live to Eatontown (~5 miles from Little Silver train station) where I work. All in all, I have a 9 mile, 25 minute commute. The train is clearly not an option.. (not to mention ticket cost and parking permit cost). The busses however could be.. if they weren't on an hour by hour schedule and didn't go all over the place and I didn't have to change busses. It's about a 60 minute commute by bus.
Hank, remember that transit in Central and Northern Jersey is geared mostly for one purpose... to and from Newark, New York, and Jersey City. The MXX busses are used primarily by those who do not have cars or cannot use cars and don't want dismal taxi service.
As a matter of fact I can't even think of taking a train to get from Middletown to New Brunswick when I was going to Rutgers... the schedules are prohibitive and the parking situation was dismal. If I was going to Rutgers - Newark, chances are high I'd have commuted on the train. Bear in my mind that the last 10 times I have gone to New York, I have always used the train since it is the lowest hassle way to get there and service is adequate.
That storm moved through Sheepshead Bay about 2:30pm, Monday.
The Brighton D/Q was down until around 10:30pm.
I heard NOT ONE mention of subway service disruptions
on either of our illustrious "All-News" radio stations.
"wcBS & wins" (More like "all-snooze")
Anyone know how the various lines were affected ?
When will SOMEONE in City government realize that it's
not such a good idea to allow large trees close to the
Brighton and Sea Beach cuts (or, for that matter, ALL
railroad lines). Do we need a law to force their removal ?
Common sense dictates trees shouldn't be any closer to
a railroad line for a distance at least equal to it's height.
But they CAN'T be removed: they're "too pretty."
Round and round it goes......
The surrounding communities feel trees are also a noise deterent. Remember the fuss made a few years ago when the TA took down all the trees around Fort Hamilton Pkwy. on the N line?
Aside from being "pretty", trees are the producers of oxygen, get rid of too many trees and what would we breath? And you propose a law to do away with them? You can never have too many trees. The few times that they wreck havoc (i.e. last Monday), doesn't dictate their removal. However, periodically weak, dying and dead trees should be removed from the proximity of the right of way.
Trees also "shield" the right-of-way from residences. Not everyone is a railfan and gets excited having trains running past their back yards.
And lastly, trees are just appealing to have around to look at. The city doesn't have to be all concrete and glass. So, don’t be so hard on the trees. Remember, we are here because they are here.
Bet my wife wishes she took the "slobway." She was at the aquarium in Coney Island when the storm hit, along with our two kids -- but she had taken the car. After cowering in one of the buildings for half and hour she, and everyone else at Coney, tried to drive home. It took half an hour just to get out of the parking lot, with downed tree-limbs everywhere, and longer to crawl up Ocean Parkway -- which was blocked by trees and emergency vehicles rushing here and there.
Eliminate street trees too? Wouldn't be too popular.
Who refers to the subway as the slobway, anyway? Is this just New Yorker slang? I'm originally from Philadelphia, and I've never heard it called the slobway.
I believe the guy who made the original post is about the only person I've heard call the subway the "slobway." Guess you'd have to call the commuter rail lines the "snobways" by that measure, since they come in from the "snuburbs."
so common sense would dictate the removal of trees near subway and railroad right of way to reduce inconvenience when a storm arrives hmm okay next would have to be removal near highways and streets
or is it just large trees.....
what this city needs is more trees!!! we need oxygen HEllo!!!
Stand on the north end of the southbound platform at Kings Highway (D/Q) looking over the local track just past the signal (station timer) you can see the tree branches over the local track. The branch actualy bends in the shape of the top of the subway car.
Like a tunnel opening, kewl..
I am looking for information on the proposed New York frieght rail tunnel under the Hudson. Any information readily available on the web regarding this project would be greatly appreciated.
Please mail me at abyler@hntb.com
Thanks.
Andy Byler
A reminder to all those that will be in the King of Prussia, PA area this coming weekend (Sept 11 & 12th) that have an interest in models of the New York City Subway System.
The 21st "Fall Trolley extravaganza" is being held at the Holiday Inn in King of Prussia, PA (exit 24 of the PA turnpike). The Holiday Inn is located on the road that circles the Court & Plaza Shopping Complex.
There will be 10,000 square feet of Manufacturers, Dealers, and
Modular Layouts in O and HO Scale devoted to Trolley's, Interurban,
and Rapid Transit Modeling.
Clinics are also scheduled, including a clinic on Model Elevated
Trackwork Construction. There will be a model contest and door prizes will be awarded.
The show will be open to the public on Friday Sept. 11th from 7:00pm until 11:00pm and on Saturday Sept. 12th from 9:30am to 5:00pm.
Friday night is mostly for set-up but some vendors will be in attendance.
Admission for both days is $10.00. Spouse and Children under 18 are admitted free of charge.
If you have any questions, call us at (914) 342-5623 or contact us by E-Mail at: mtsimp@warwick,net.
Last year a friend of mine entered his models of NYC's "Hi-V" subway cars in the modelling contest. He lost the contest to someone who entered a Phila. lrv.
Since the theme of the show is rapid transit, he was very disappointed that this model was entered and was allowed to win the contest.
Perhaps since there is an established theme for the show, model entries could be limited to those which carry the theme of the show.
Thank you.
Does anybody know anything about the abandoned station in the Canal
Street transfer between the N/R and J/M/Z?
Those tracks connect to the south side of the Manhattan Bridge from the Broadway BMT express tracks. They are "temporarily" out of service. Various dates have been suggested as return to service -- such as 2003. Note that the DoT will be doing Manhattan Bridge inspections over three weekends this month (shutting down the north tracks' B/D service). Perhaps there will more information following these inspections. I'm not holding my breath...
Hmm, if so, they'll have to lay track back down in the one pocket...
the main rails and ties are gone and the third rail is up on (cinderblocks?). Eesh. :)
And they won't be in any rush to do it, given the time schedule for fixing the bridge.
Last year, there was a "boat in a moat" exhibit on the westerly side of the right-of-way. Very realistic. Kinda spooky, in fact!
"boat in a moat" ??!?
Yeah, it was some kind of artsy-craftsy thing. Since it was in the roadbed of the southbound track, it was viewed from a distance as the passenger walked on the northbound platform. It was a viking-like ship, with modeled people too! There were temporary "dams" set up to keep water in place for the boat (kind of unnecessary, don't you think - given the way that station leaks!). It was very eerie...
I was on a LIRR car last week and a woman behind me asked the conductor why did her ears pop going thru the East River tunnel. He told her that we just went thru the deep tunnel. He said there is four tunnels & the one we just went thru is the deepest, actually passing under the others. I wasn't paying attention so I'm not sure what tunnel number we actually were in. Does this sound right ? How deep are these tunnels ?
No, My guess is that it's because the train is hitting the tunnel at 40+ mph. This creates a "piston" effect, asa the front car pushes through the tunnel. Air is rather compressable, and takes time to get moving too. So it's compresses, and looks for ways to leak out. This causes the pressure inside the car to rise suddenly, popping your ears. If you watch out the front car, you'll notice that the pressure jumps happen after you pass Emergency exits, you'll also hear it too.
This doesn't happen outside because the air has somewhere to go.
That's exactly right. You will experience the same thing on any subway tunnel under the East River as you pass an emergency exit. My ears would always pop as we passed the emergency exits in the 14th St. tunnel on the Canarsie line. I learned to keep my mouth open as we approached those exits; doing so helps equalize pressure on both sides of the eardrums by opening up the eustachian tubes (remember Felix Unger and his "hmehhhh!"?).
BTW, the same thing happens when riding in a fast elevator in, say, the Empire State Building or WTC.
Also, the same thing happens in airplanes during takeoff and landing.
:)
Also, I've got something that is BUGGING me. A few months ago, watching out the front of an LIRR train, I noticed right before the tunnels began at penn, weird structures along the walls, which, as best as I could tell, looked like *doors* that could close over the end of the tunnels. Now, it was dark, and maybe I'm seeing things again, but has anyone else ever noticed this?
I was told by an AMTRAK Structural Maintainer (and this is not another Queensboro Bridge Tale) that they are actually flood doors in case of a less than catostrophic breech in the tunnel shell. He also told me that they are likely inoperative now.
Ears popping in airplanes are due to the pressure changes as the airplane changes altitude. They pressurize the cabin, but the pressure inside still varies.
I'd imagine that the skyscraper elevator causes your ears to pop for both reasons (piston effect and change in atmospheric pressure due to change in elevation) but I am not sure.
Some time ago, either on here or nyc.transit, there was some discussion of the LIRR tunnels. Apparently there is a crossover. I don't remember the exact details but it was like this
Penn LIC
Station
Eastbound------------Eastbound
Eastbound----\/------Westbound
Westbound----/\------Eastbound
Westbound------------Westbound
Or maybe I have that backward but you get the idea.
The answer was in response to a question I asked. It appears that Line 2 and 3 cross under Long Island City and not at their deepest point. Therefore, the Conductors explanation was all wet. As for how the tunnels line up: From south to north at Penn Station they line up this way
Line 1 Eastbound
Line 2 Westbound
Line 3 Eastbound
Line 4 Westbound
While at the LIC side of the river, they line up South to North:
Line 1 Eastbound
Line 3 Eastbound
Line 2 Westbound
Line 4 Westbound
Another possible explanation to the ear popping ride.
I vaguely remember hearing way back when that the tubes under the east river were equiped with positive pressure ventilation systems. In other words, at various points, air is forced into the tunnel under high pressure -- so that in event of a smoke condition -- it is forced out more quickly.
Being the weather geek that I am, I have a barometer/altimeter on my wristwatch (OK, a thermometer too!). I can watch the pressure go up and down at various points through the tunnel, not in relation to relative depth. So my hunch is that the forced air has more impact on ear popping that height below sea level.
I've experienced ear popping while riding Amtrak or New Jersey Transit
trains, as the train enters the tunnel (I don'y know what New Jersey
city is directly above the tunnel) before arriving at New York's Penn
Station.
If I had to guess, I would say either Secaucus, Hoboken, or Weehauken. US 1/9 crosses over the tracks just before the tunnel portal. BTW, that stadium directly above the entrance to the Lincoln Tunnel is Weehauken Stadium - if it's still there.
i think there is vent before you go under river. njt's old e-l line has vents in tunnel to hoboken.
Hey guys I thought I would pass this information on to anybody who would like a copy of the 1998 Insiders Bus Guide that is having trouble getting through with the 1-888-NYCT BUS number. You can call customer assistance at 1-718-330-3322 and they will connect you with bus operations. Of course for out of towners will have a toll call here. I would like to make a comment about the MTA. It seems that they are very good about giving out various publications such as this and annual reports etc. Are other transit authoritys this generous? I can't recall if SEPTA gives this kind of material out. If they do please let me know.
What I liked most about the call to the 888 number was that a human voice answered & when the envelope came it was hand written, probally while I was talking to her. Yes, little things impress me.
I've used it once, when I came back from a trip to CT country fair. I found that the Gun Hill depot has 32 Nova Articulated listed, good reason why I saw two near the #6.
Mr t__:^)
Mr. T,
Those articulateds are built by New Flyer. It's the model D-60 and they are the first New Flyer purchase by NYCT. All of Gun Hill's artics were delivered to Kingsbridge in 1997 and were transferred to Gun Hill when the 1998 New Flyer artics arrived at Kingsbridge.
Wayne
Wayne, Thanks for the correction, I'm new at this. Mr t__:-(
Glad I could help. I have a pretty good handle on this info. and I'm very happy to share it when I can.
Wayne
Ron, something from SEPTA for free? Surely you must be kidding!
Iwas coming home from work today and i saw R62 car 1315 #1 end sign say #7 on it strange aint it although the #1 cab is no longer servicable being its now a 5 car set l DOES ANYBODY KNOW WHEN THE R62aS will be on the #7LINE maybe from THE #1 AND 3 LINES ? I THINK SO IF ANY OF YOU BUFFS KNOW PLEASE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!LET ME KNOW A S A P LORDMICKEL AOL.COM THANX BYE
Does anyone know how far behind schedule this project is? It seems to have been going on forever. Also, is anything new being built, such as a direct passageway between the N/R and 6-J/M/Z, so that you don't have to walk through the old N line platform?
At the rate they're going, this whole fiasco will take longer to complete than it took for the ancient Egyptians to build the pyramids at Cheops. I know I'm being a bit facetious, but I couldn't resist.
Supposedly, there was more damage and deterioration discovered on the south side than was originally thought. I still find it ironic, since the north side has had far more subway operation than the south side.
i am still trying to find out why the cars on the R train were swopped with those on the E. I know for a fact there was no direct order to do it. I think all R train riders mis the R-44's.
So why were they switched and is there any hope they will be back?
I really love the R-32 cars now on the R. They are clearly the best-looking, most comfortable, and most efficient cars. The seating is superb, better than any other model. I love the long benches. You can walk through the cars also. If anybody has a problem with these cars, voice it here.
I have no problems per se with the R32 cars - in fact, they're a
very important part of my best subway memories as a youth. I first
rode one on November 22, 1964 on the "QB" train from Cortelyou Road
to 49th Street-7th Avenue.
I have ONLY one minor complaint, which I have voiced before, but will
voice again - during the overhaul, MKCO should NEVER have replaced
the bulkhead signs with those digital ones.
The digital signs are a) hard to read - the light behind them is
not bright enough b) don't look right - it looks like somebody
punched a hole in the top of the car c) seem to collect dirt behind
the glass, so you can't tell "C" from "G" from "Q" from "O".
(I know there ain't no "O" train but lots of "Q"s I've seen -
you can't see the tail of the "Q" cos of the dirt, so it looks like
a "O").
I'm a slant R40 fan myself, but I hope the R32s are around for many
more years. They're the most rugged car the TA's had since the
BMT Standard.
"O" well,
Wayne
[ MKCO should NEVER have replaced the bulkhead signs with those digital ones. ]
Agreed. At least the R-38 rebuilds don't look so naked up front even though they, too, have those same digital signs.
--Mark
I'll second that. Electronic signs are fine and good, but they need to be LEGIBLE!! And from a distance, too! Not only do I miss the bulkhead roller curtains as does Wayne, but the blue doors as well. They made the R-32s unique. I've liked them ever since the first time I ever rode them on July 21, 1965 on an N from 36th St.-4th Ave. to 34th St.-Broadway.
I'd prefer seeing the R-32s on express routes, such as back on the D, since they're still pretty fast. Never mind the fact that locals often zoom along while expresses lope. Remember, this is an express addict talking here!
I'm willing to bet the R-32s will be around for as long as the BMT standards were, perhaps even longer. They might even threaten the Gibbs Hi-Vs for longevity. I certainly hope so.
Well, most of us seem to think the R32 and R38 will last much longer than the other stainless cars in the system. If the bodies last, and it is most likely they will, they would probably need another heavy mechanical/light cosmetic overhaul. If that becomes the case, perhaps they will install new signs.
BTW, has anyone besides me noticed that the builders plates seem to be disapearing?
-Hank
I have one complaint concerning the R32. There are only 600 of them. The best of NYCTA. I heard, BTW, that the bulkhead-digital-sign-assembly, actually has the old route-destination sign underneath, my only objection to the rebuild. Too bad more weren't ordered. Prediction & opinion: they and their equally efficient counterparts, the R38, will outlast the R40, 42, 44 and possibly the R46. LONG LIVE THE R32.
Believe it or not, the R-32 contract was the largest order ever placed by the TA at the time. The way they've held up over the years, it is too bad there aren't more of them. 595 of them are still rolling along. Their cousins, the R-38s, were improved with rebuilding; they ride better now. It's also too bad Budd didn't build more cars for New York later on.
Because of their sheer numbers, the R-32s were never assigned exclusively to one line. They began their careers on the Southern Division BMT routes, replacing the remaining BMT standards and Triplex units. When the Chrystie St. connection opened, the AA, B, and D lines got them; they also remained on the N. Over the years, they've run on just about every IND and BMT route you can think of, except perhaps the Canarsie line (is this so?). I actually rode an A train of R-32s once, and was quite surprised to see them.
Now that the R-1/9s and R-10s are gone, the R-32s and R-38s are my personal favorites, too. Those of us who prefer roll signs on the bulkheads will have another reason to lament the passing of the Redbirds.
A number of years ago, maybe 15, I actually did operate a train of R32's on the Canarsie line. They didn't stay there for long. This was because some inspections of R32's were done at ENY for a very short period of time.
Thanks for the feedback! Did those cars have LL signs?
They did indeed have LL signs. R32's have always had all sign readings for the BMT & IND divisions, although most were seldom needed.
Here's the $64,000 question: were these the multicolored route signs which were installed in the destination slot, or the original route roller curtains? I have no doubt the multicolored curtains had LL signs, but I'm not so sure the original route signs did (they didn't have B signs, for instance; only BB).
BTW, I didn't realize that very few R-42s were originally assigned to the Canarsie line in 1969. I must have been lucky, because I vivdly remember riding them back then on the LL.
R42s (AND R40Ms) on the LL:
Originally, (August 1969) R40Ms showed up on the "LL".
I was in #4301 (later #4501), a freezing-cold R40M from B.J. to
Rockaway Pkwy Aug 4 1969. Along with it: 4290, 4291, 4304, 4305,
4294, 4295. (all ORIGINAL numbers courtesy of my old notebook)
Later that year, the 4900 series R42s displaced the R40Ms.
The R40Ms were transferred to the E/EE/F/GG.
They were renumbered, first with the Brake Test Numbers (CBxx, ASxx)
then their current numbers were assigned early spring of 1970.
(#4501, nee #4301 from my Aug 4 '69 ride wound up getting into fisticuffs with R16 #6304 on May 20, 1970 then inherited parts from
Slant 40 #4200)
Almost thirty years later - AND NOTHING has changed! R40Ms and R42s
still plying the "L". God Bless!
As for R32s. While I have never personally seen one on the "LL" or the "L", based on the time line my guess would be they had the multicolored mylar curtain rolls. The only way to tell them from the original rolls would be by the white circle around the "LL", since the "LL" wore black. I began seeing multicolored signs on R32 cars somewhere around early 1970. Ditto for R38 and R16.
Wayne
You are correct: the multicolored roller curtains featured white circles around each letter code. They were installed in the original destination slot on the R-16s, R-32s, and R-38s. Most of the original route curtains were removed at the same time; however, some cars kept them for one reason or another. I remember seeing AA trains of R-32s with the original "AA/8th Ave." sign on the left and the new magenta "AA" on the right where the destination sign used to be. A handful of R-32s even retained the original destination signs.
I was dismayed when I saw those multicolored curtains for the first time. Not because I thought it was a bad idea, but because they did away with destination signs on the bulkheads. I'm sure that with the new trend being ushered in by the R-40s and R-42s of having just a letter marker and nothing else, it was decided to have the R-32s and R-38s follow suit. The R-16s needed new signs anyway, since most of them had only number markers on their route curtains.
It was refreshing to see destination signs on the R-32s once again just before they were rebuilt. Thankfully, the Redbirds still have them.
> It was refreshing to see destination signs on the R-32s once again
> just before they were rebuilt. Thankfully, the Redbirds still have
> them.
Agreed. When an R-44 "A" train pulls into West 4th St heading towards Brooklyn, how does one know, by just looking at the front route sign, if the train is headed to ..
- Lefferts Blvd
- Rockaway Park
- Far Rockaway
Chances are you don't know, and unless you hear the "A to blah blah blah" announcement or you catch the side roll signs, you may end up on the wrong train.
--Mark
Exactly. Now, if you're standing at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, and a train of R-38s pulls in, you have to squint in order to decipher that stupid pixel sign to determine if the train is an A or a C. If it's an A, then you have to glance at the side signs, as you said, to determine where it's headed. Since the A goes to Rockaway Park only during rush hours, that makes it a bit easier. Plus, A trains normally alternate between Lefferts Blvd. and Far Rockaway, so at least you have a 50-50 chance if you don't catch the signs. Of course, if trains still had at least marker lights, it would help. Then again, the Redbirds still have them, but they're no longer used - they remain set to red-red.
If there was ever a reason to bring back the R-10s on the A line, this is one of them. I think you could also make a strong case for the C, too. They never should have done away with bulkhead destination signs, IMHO.
Though most of the redbird's marker lights are set to red, a few months ago, I saw multi-colored marker lights on the #5 train. And it wasn't just one train, several of them had them. Most were either red-green or green-red, and I don't think they were accurate. I think I also saw a red-amber.
Was this the product of sentimental motermen, or was it some sort of an *ingenious* Transit Authority experiment?
Years ago, I recall riding R-44's and some R-38's with placards on the motorman's front window that either said Lefferts or Rockaways depending on the destination
Actually there are 594 left - the following have bitten the dust:
3616 (scrapped)
3620 (bent frame)
3629 (smashed face)
3651 (scrapped)
3668 (the worst damaged - split a switch then split a pillar
at the mouth of the Malbone St. tunnel 12/01/72)
and 3766 (scrapped)
That's a 99% success rate after 33 (and in some cases 34) years.
Don't get much better than that.
As to lines that have I have never seen an R32 on:
The "J" as brown-sign line (there WERE R32s on the "QJ")
the "K" (both versions: 6th AND 8th Ave)
the "L" (never saw one at Canarsie, though that could conceivably
change in the future).
Very, VERY rare on the "M" and only in the blue-sign days.
The "EE" never saw one either.
The ones on the "A" are the R32-GE's, eight of ten cars rebuilt
by Buffalo Transit/GE rather than MKCO (3594-5; 3892-3; 3880-1;
3936-7 with 3934-5 held for parts) run on the "A" sometimes as
8-out-10 car trains (the other two are R38s), sometimes mixed in
a bunch of R38s. They look exactly like R38s inside - and their
air conditioning dont work. (boooo!)
Yes it is too bad there were only 600 of them - the R38s come pretty
close; they should also see 50 years service.
Wayne
I should clarify one thing: I rode that A train of R-32s back in 1968 or 1969 from 14th St. to 42nd St. And it plodded past 23rd St. in much the same manner as A trains have always done.
That remains the only time I ever saw a solid A train of R-32s. I do remember seeing mixed consists of R-32s and R-42s on the D.
After I hit the post message button, I realized I forgot to take into account the cars which bit the dust. But it is good you re-posted those cars for the benefit of new viewers of this site. A few years ago, for reasons which escape me, for a few days we did have a GOH R32 on the M. It was spotted to make sure it would make 1 round trip each rush hour to wind up in CIYD
I totally agree and if I may add there are no bloody full cabs.
The 32s just might last 50 years, they're that nice still. Of course, I'm no expert at this, but I'd say the stainless probbly HAS faired well. Steve, what do you think? Think they could make 50 years?
I just wish they kept the straps, though. Another problem now is, if you are standing near the door on a crowded train, you have nothing to hold on to! They should have put in the same bars as in the R-38s. Other than that, I love the R-32s for who they are.
You should be happy that the R line has more R-32's than 44's. I particulary dislike the trains with bucket style seating. Bench seating is much better in my opinion. Another thing is that I find the air conditioning to be much better in the R-32's than 44's. I feel much more of a blast of cool air unlike the the majority of the R-44's. I ride the E line often and say to myself "Yes!" whenever a R-32 approaches knowing that it's an E.
-GarfieldA
Is the R line REALLY running some R-44's? Or are we talking about R-46's? Last I heard, the A and SIRT were the only lines to have R-44's.
You are correct: aside from the SIRT, only the A line has R-44s. They're really not that bad - except for the full-width cabs.
MY theory for the swap of R32 E for R46 R cars would be the E/F reroute due to connector project between Queens Plaza and 36th street.
It is way easier to change the destination on the led equipped R46 car than having to go car to car and manually and time consuming R32 cars. On R46 at the cab position punch inthe code for the route and all cars have proper side sign destination displayed. As for end signs well its easier to crank one or two signs versus each car. I still love my R32's but to change signs is really time consuming
I think R train riders will be very happy with the R-32s, the most reliable cars in the fleet, if you ask me.
--Mark
What makes you think that there was no 'Direct Order' to swap the
R-46s and R-32s between the E & R lines? Do you think Train Dispatchers have the discretion to make that kind of change? The question should be - who gave that order? Hint: The order was not given by the people who would normally make that decision.
As for your other question, I think you will start to see the R-32s return to the E line by the end of September.
So Steve, who did give the direct order to switch the E's and R's? Do you know the reason? Does that mena that the R-44's will go back to the R line?
thanks
Yes, I have heard who gave the order. It would be inappropriate to post the name of the person here, though. (The name would be meaningless to you unless you worked in the TA and then you'd likely already know who it is or why I'd be reluctant to give the name out) I also know the reasons why, both stated and unstated. I likely would not have made the swap for any of the reasons stated. And yes, my understanding is that the cars will be moved back. By the way, it was the R-46s and not R-44s
Hey everbody in Phila.-they have a new transit map for sale-only$6.95
This is little pricy, but it is really supposed to be a good one!The old one was from 1992 and very out of date. Still remembering my fun ride on the ADrantz cars on the MFSE.
West Fest Subway's family day open house at Westchester Avenue Yard, celebrating the opening of Westchester Avenue Master Tower (WAMT)
Saturday Sept 12, 1998 from 1000 hrs to 1500hrs
planned events include
Lo-V and antique "SMEE" car train rides
Train displays of TG-01 and the R110A train
Mainline rides to and from Hunts Point Avenue
diesel locomotive rides for kids
re-railing a flat car
rail bending
tour of Pelham maintenance shop
tour of westchester locomotive shop
guided tours of the new relay room and new master signal tower
transit museum info and sales table
police demonstrations
flag raising and plaque dedication
food consession to benefit the March Of Dimes
open to all employees(and their families) of the Department of Subways,
RTO, Track, infrastructure, Signal Operations, Stations, Car Equipment
>>open to all employees(and their families) of the Department of Subways, RTO, Track, infrastructure, Signal Operations, Stations, Car Equipment <<
So anyone want to adopt me?? *P*L*E*A*S*E*!!!!
Are you sure it is not open to the general public? I sure would like to take my kids. Would someone double check & let me know via e-mail or this sight.
THANK YOU!!
I know it's getting near time for it, does anyone know if/when the Croton/Harmon open shop is? I'm *really* interested in going, and my Mechanical Engineering Tech Advisor has shown interest in either tagging along, or turning it into a class trip. Naturally, I'd like it to happen, as I can use the brownie points :)
Anyone hear anything about it yet?
Okay, Im curious to know what the largest and most used single SUBWAY line in the United States is. (Not the largest transit system, but single line) This may seem like a dumb question, but it happened to cross my mind, and I would be very greatful if anyone who knows the answer to this would Email me and tell me - thanks alot
This is Donald still, my address for anyone with the answer is - QofA97@aol.com - thanks again
There are many ways of measuring busiest: passengers per year, passengers per mile per year etc. I will need to double check my figures, but if you divide the number of passengers per year by the number of stations, then I think that PATH comes out as the busiest system in the US by quite a long way [Paris is the busiest system in Europe, Moscow in Eastern Europe]. This may not answer the question if PATH is taken to be a system rather than a line, but the A and the 5 in NY both serve more than one destination. If the definition of line is appled strictly to mean an end-to-end service, then the Metropolitan Line in London is really at least seven lines, the Northern Line is at least six and the District Line is five.
There are many ways to measure your request. One would be the number of passengers passing a specific boundary point in an hour or an entire day. Based on this, I believe the Lexington Avenue subway entering mid-Manhattan southbound at 59th Street probably wins it for a double track (local and express) line, and the E/F 53d Street tunnel probably wins for a single track line.
I read somewhere that the East Side IRT trunk line (including all branches) carries more passengers than any other subways system -- in its entirety -- in the United States.
Of course, had the 2nd Ave. line been built as planned, chances are that wouldn't be the case. Oh well, we probably won't see that line come to fruition during our lifetimes.
When I got my latest subway map, it said that the Franklin Avenue shuttle was shut down for rebuilding. What kind of rebuilding? Will they bring back the station at Dean St.?
[When I got my latest subway map, it said that the Franklin Avenue shuttle was shut down for rebuilding. What kind of rebuilding? Will they bring back the station at Dean St.?]
It's being rebuilt completely and is scheduled to reopen in about 18 months. All the stations will be totally reconstructed, and there'll be a regular, within-the-turnstiles transfer to the C at the northern end. Alas, Dean Street will be no more than a memory.
As Peter said, they will remove all of Dean Street during the reconstruction. All stations will be rebuilt with exception of Prospect Park (it was already rebuilt) and they are putting in a Transfer to the IRT too.
Currently there is shuttle bus service, from the interlocking south of Prospect Park the track is blocked with red lights and cross ties. I believe they will start ripping up the track soon.
How long will the station platforms be? And how many tracks will there be?
more than likely two car platforms, if we see longer plats it'll be a miracle. supposedly opto is dead in the water but when the shuttle reopens its anybodies guess.
I also believe they will do some more single tracking towards Franklin Ave. Some one here once posted where the single tracking will take effect.
According to what I've seen on either this month's or last month's 'Transit Transit' show they've already ripped up a good portion of the the line. It's on Sat 3:30pm on channel 25. Too bad about Dean Street - I wonder what remnants will be left after the rebuilding.
Well, hopefully we'll have a better Franklin Shuttle after all of
this surgery is complete. I REALLY DO HOPE they give a nod to the
past and do the "old-is-new" thing, especially with the station
railings and fixtures. As for Dean Street, I doubt if they'll leave
anything at all, they'll probably even remove the entrance building
beneath the tracks. It's too bad, that was a fine example of
BRT architecture, circa 1907; only TWO EXAMPLES remain: Sutter Avenue
and Livonia Avenue, both on the L.
BTW- the platforms will be SHORT, only 170 feet long, so I guess
there will be two-car R68 trains.
Wayne
The platforms will be 170 feet long./ The line will be two tracks from Prospect Park to Park Place. From Park Place Station to Franklin will be one track (Park Place according to the official employee enwsletter for 8/1998 will have one track. What is unclear is whether the one track will be North of the station or in the station itself.) As far as Dean Street- the remains will be removed. An enclosed transfer and ADA elevatorsd (plus escalators) will be installed at Franklin. Botanic Garden will ahve an enclosed within the fare zone transfer to IRT Franklin Ave 2/3/4/5 Sta.
All track, asignals, bridges, and retaining walls will be completely rebuilt as will the stations.
Here's another one of my 'aesthetic' questions - since they will be
rebuilding the stations (LONG overdue!), will they use new/old
(period) furnishings, i.e. lamps, railings, etc. It would sure be
a nice touch to see some old-fashioned lamps on the platforms (with
bright, flourescent energy-saving bulbs in them) esp. at Botanic
Garden. I suggest the BMT shade kind (found at A.A. on the "L",
they did new ones at Sheepshead Bay) for Park Place - AND -
hook-armed ones with little cages for Botanic Garden - AND -
right-angled ones with metal shades (with cages) for Franklin Avenue
all painted in black, graffiti-resistant enamel with green paint on the shades.
Just a suggestion. I LOVE 'Period furnishings'.
Wayne
The TA "AFC" group is treating the "privates" to a visit to the President's conference room at 370 Jay Street. We're having a meeting about system output changes, pretty dull stuff, but the surrounding will be nice, it's my second time in there. There's a subway station right in the basement too, but I'll likely go there by company car 'cause the others comming with me are't transit nuts.
I've also been to Cubic's office on 11th Ave several times and take our bus to 34th then a subway. Others here can't figure out why I don't take a company car ... they just don't understand !
Mr t__:^)
hmm i'm sure there will be some interesting stuff being tossed around, enquiring minds would like to hear about your adventures at 370 Jay St!
I wouldn't say 370 Jay St is nice surroundings, however. No private company of the TA's size would be located in a building in that condition. Of course, when I was with the TA they had us (materials management) in an abandoned warehouse infested with rats, so everything is relative.
having been in 370 jay street recently on business the interior looked pretty good so things are looking up at least for the office crowd. From the exterior 370 jay st looks run down but from the second floor up interior apointments look well polished floors in halls and carpeted office floors and good climate control.. as usual anyone else would have to settle for four walls and a roof but thats how it usually is for everyone else but the head honchos..
On my way from Newark Airport last night I noticed new posters on PATH advertizing: "Airtrain . . . New train service to JFK . . . breaking ground September 1998" They were Port Authority posters.
Does anyone have additional info on this? Is this the light rail project on the Van Wyck - or is this one seat from Midtown?
It's the "light rail" project "at JFK", i.e. the portion off the airport & up Van Wyck to Jamaica will be phase II. Beyond Jamaica is still in the planning stage.
P.S. There has been a lot of talk about it here, so do a search by topic to see it.
Mr t__:^)
What is the status of the JFK (So called Light Rail)?
Why is it even being called light rail if it is an elevated system?
Oh, some quick info on that JFK "airtrain" what not. I saw the plant that produces Linear Induction Motors for Bombardier- trains will run
at around 50mph at up to two minute headways- I have not found out whether trains will use third rail d.c. pickup or third and fourth rail A.C. pick up (such as they do in Vancouver). Aside from that,
the trains will be almost identical (though sleeker) to the "skytrain"
in Vancouver (see transit systems worldwide) though they will have lower servce speeds. If I can, I'll try to get a sound clip from the trains- the Bombardier L.I.M.'s make the strangest (not to mention loudest) sound- almost sounds like an Indy car.
--Nathan
I just got back from Montréal. Their subway is based on the Paris Metro - both use rails for steering but support the weight of the train on rubber tires. I'm assuming the advantage for Montreal is that the subway can climb steeper inclines in shorter distances with Rubber tire traction. This would be useful for getting under the St. Lawrence River and around the hills of the city.
Do any cities other than Montréal and Paris use Rubber tires on their subways?
The story I heard was that Montreal opted for rubber tyres (note: French spelling) since they are "the Paris of the New World". The system has suffered two major fires due to tyre blowouts in terminal stations. When the tyres burst, cords contacted the third rail and fires broke out. Since the tyres provide suffucuent fuel, the fires spred until all the cars were consumed and the station extensively damaged.
Strangely, the shuttle that provided service to the Montreal World's Fair used convenional rail technology for the line.
That shuttle you speak of was called the Expo-Express. During Expo 67, it ran from the waterfront, stopped at both islands, and terminated at LaRonde, ducking beneath the Jacques Cartier Bridge. There was a fair-bound station at Habitat-67, but wasn't used - at least not when we visited the fair. After the fair closed and was renamed Man and His World, the line was cut back to Ile Notre Dame and a stop was added before reaching LaRonde. It was essentially a small-scale subway line using regular old steel rails and third rail. The cars were coupled into 3-car sets, had 3 sets of doors on each side, and ran in 6-car trains. The outer ends of the end cars had a protruding nose similar to Chicago's 2000-series cars. The stations, as I recall, had tent-like windscreens, and the trains would stay at each station for what seemed like at least a minute. The best part was that it was FREE! OK, chances are the fair admission covered some of the cost.
I wonder if the tires which caught on fire were steel-belted radials. In all seriousness, rubber is a good insulator all by itself, but I could see where a steel belt could cause a short circuit between the third rail and one of the track rails.
BTW, the only Metro line which runs beneath the St. Lawrence River is the yellow #4, which served Ile St. Helene at Expo (Is that station still open?). It continues onto Longeuil. Like the other Metro lines, its trains run on rubber tires.
Yes, the Yellow line still stops at Ile St. Helene. I was just there on Sunday - which is what sparked my interest in rubber tire subways.
Besides Paris and Montreal:
Mexico-City, Santiago, Chile and Lyon, France use the Parisian System. Maybe Marseille could be using it but I'm not sure.
Sapporo, Japan uses a different system with no regular steel wheels "a la Parisienne".
Tyres" is the British spelling for the things. In French they're called "pneus."
Regardless of how it's spelled, they still had two major fires destroying cars and seriously damaging stations.
Speaking of Paris, I was there a couple months ago, and I was surprised to see that many of the lines had been converted to standard rail. A couple still had the rubber tires (#1, and #6), but I wasn't on all 13 of them, and can't speak for all, but most of the ones I was on had standard rail? Reason?
Only lines 1,4,6,11 and the now closed Shuttle ever had "pneu" systems. The original plan to convert all the lines was aborted in the 70s.
The above four lines still uses rubber tyred trains.
I think that RATP realised in the 50s that the expense and time taken to convert steel rail was not justified given the poor state of the system as a whole. Given a choice of converting a line or extending it, extending it will always benefit more people, especially as new technology has reduced the advantage over conventional rail. I understand that one of the lines (11?) was only converted because it is largely elevated, and the conversion reduced the noise level.
While in Paris in 1978, I noticed one detail which I found interesting: while Metro trains run right-handed, suburban trains such as those on the S line, which I also rode, run left-handed. The S line also used overhead catenary, and man, did those motors moan and groan! Just like the R-1/9s!
When being built, the city council in Paris took a number of steps to ensure that it would not be possible for main line railways to run on metro lines (loading gauge etc.). I am not sure whether right-hand running was another deliberate step to keep the main line railways away, but it would certainly seem plausible.
Sorry for my late reply...
The line that was converted to pneu for being elevated was the 6. I was taking it everyday to go to school during the conversion.
Twas amazing to see them running next to the Classic stock.
The same was going to happen for the 2 but RATP decided the new "fer(steel)" cars were quiet enough.
The 11 was converted for experimental reasons (sharp curves, steep gradient).
The line S (Ligne de Sceaux) is now known as RER line B. The Z series stock ruled the line for over 50 years, even after the interconnexion to the SNCF CDG Airport line which required Bi-Current stock (MI79).
It looks like we won't be seeing anymore rubber tyred "rail" lines in Paris- right now they seem to be favoring the sleek and sexy R.E.R.
commuter lines...
I visited Mexico City in 1971 and they already had rubber-tired subways by then. As the system then consisted of only two lines (which crossed each other twice), it can be assumed that it was originally built for rubber tires.
Bob Sklar
how would I get from the 6 line to the world financial center?
If you're boarding from uptown transfer from the 6 at 51st to the E to World Trade Center or to the N/R from 59 st to Rector or Courtlandt st or to th 4&5 at 86st/59st/42nd st ride to fulton st.
Just one caution, it's a long walk from Cortlandt/Rector/WTC to the World Financial Center, going through the skybridge over West Street. I'd allow ten minutes.
Wouldn't it be faster just to switch to an express(4 or 5) to Fulton Street and walk?
CTA has been charging $88 for an unlimited-use Monthly Pass, which meant very few people bought one because you'd have to make 30 round trips without transfer or 25 round trips with transfers to break even on the deal!
Now, they have announced that the monthly pass will be sold for $75, which means the break-even point is 25 round trips without transfer and only 21 round trips with transfers. Along with this, they are eliminating tokens and adding a seven-day unlimited-use pass for $20. (The break-even on this is 7 round trips without transfer per week and 6 with transfer.) The newspaper article was unclear whether the 7-day pass would be sold to the general ridership or with the 1, 3, and 5-day Visitor Passes at limited locations.
This shows me that CTA is making at least one assumption and one policy decision. They are assuming most commuters transfer (take more than one bus, or change from bus to train), and they seem to be aiming the fare "breaks" at people who ride the CTA for more than strictly commuting to and from work. Neither helps me -- I take only one train to work, sometimes two but there's no charge for transfer between rail lines. And I go downtown on the weekends on the L some but not all weekends.
The passes are, of course, "accessible" to MANY more people now than before, and for that I compliment CTA, but they still aren't for everyone. How does this compare to the unlimited-use MetroCards?
Yes they are very similar ... hmmmmm
Could there be ONE software program, with just a few modules that are different ?????
Could fareboxes & turnstiles mfg by the same company installed in various cities be esentiaslly the same ????
The TA & Cubic have always denied it.
I realy enjoy this forum because it sheds light on what is going on behind the curtians.
P.S. I made another reply here, but I think I did something wrong, if I don't see it i'll repeat the detail Unlim vs. Value compare.
Mr t__:^)
Pricing in NYC I-S very similar to Chicago & not intended to benifit the commuter (I don't think they ever actually said this though):
- One day:__________ $4 vs. 2x1.50 = 3.00
- Seven day:____ $17 vs. 5x2x1.50 = 15.00
- 30 day:______ $63 vs. 20x2x1.50 = 60.00
- 30 day Exp: $120 vs. 20x2x3.00 = 120.00
Also LIRR monthly vs. 30 consecutive day pass:
- VALUE pass, (0, 33, or 66) expires at end of month
(the 33 cost 30 & 66 cost 60)
- Unlim pass, 63, note same price as above
And you can still buy VALUE MCs. With as little a $15 you get the 10% bonus money, i.e. for 15 it's 1.50 that gets used on your first trip.
P.S. John, you will SOON be able to buy them from a machine here too.
Interesting aside, they sware no machines are in operation yet, but I keep getting the unique cards from them.
Mr t__:^)
If you only take 10 rides in a week then the per ride card is the better buy. The benefit of the unlimited card is convenience--this allows you the freedom to ride where otherwise you'd walk and also of knowing you are through with lines for a week. If the 18 minutes is a problem buy the per ride MetroCard-and "in the fall" the 18 minutes will be changed to 18 minutes in the same station( or bus line).
The monthly card is likewise-- you do not have to buy a card for 30 days.
MTA is not trying to force the unlimited on anyone. As can be seen in posters on trains and on signs in stations, they are emphasizing personal choice: each customer can decide for themselves what they prefer and we'll sell them their choice of MetroCard. We are not forcing the unlimited cards on our customers.
Disclaimer: opinions expressed are my own and not those of MTA or NYCT
Can anyone tell me where to find pictures or maps or anything about an old link from Staten Island to Manhattan. I heard that a tunnel was started from both ends but they filled it back in and ended the project. Any help will be appreciated.
You're probably thinking of a never-completed tunnel link between Brooklyn and Staten Island. The tunnel was actually started in the early 1920's and then was mysteriously stopped, never to be resumed. It would have linked the BMT 4th Avenue subway to the B&O Staten Island Rapid Transit. There has never been, to my knowledge, a similar link started between Manhattan and S.I.
See the excellent books about NYC subway history by Stan Fischler and Brian Cudahy for additional details about this project. Because of the tunnel proposal, the SI Rapid Transit was electrified with a subway type third rail and equipped with 67-foot MU cars with exterior dimensions identical to BMT standards. That is why today's SI Railway uses R44 (B division) rolling stock.
There was a previous thread which mentioned that John Hylan killed the project because of his intense animosity towards the BMT and private subway operation in general. Put it this way: the Nassau Loop wasn't finished until after he had left office.
According to a story in the September 7, 1998 edition of Business Travel News:
"New York City will see the introduction of one-day MetroCard passes - offering unlimited rides on subways and buses - no later than October."
Can any of our TA friends confirm this?
thru the rumor mill here at transit daily passes will be offered off site through hotels and other tourist trappings and not at subway stations.
How about dishing them out at Penn Station????
PLEASE!
Well, from a selfish standpoint, I'd add "LaGuardia Airport - USAirways Shuttle Terminal," and both one-day and seven-day cards should be available there! I arrive there 30 times a year...
By the way, I forgot to add that the article I quoted affirmed the cost would be $4 for the daily unlimited card.
Mr. T - has the TA (Oops, NYCT) told the "privates" anything about these cards yet?
Todd, I passed a copy of your post to our VP, thanks !
I reply, "we" wouldn't want to sell them over the phone. The $30 & $120 cards we sell mainly to our Express customers who either find it inconvient to visit a subway station OR like the convience of using their credit card & getting them in the mail.
Disclaimer: Opinions expressed here are my own & not necessarily my employeer, the DOT, TA, etc., etc.
Mr t__:^)
I'd like to see them sold at the main terminal at LaGuardia - for those of us who fly on United.
By tourist spots, does that mean the Empire State Building, WTC or similar popular location?
P. S. I wonder if the one-day pass will be available by the time I fly in on Oct. 19.
I can appreciate what is being said about the reliability of the R-32's but comfort wise I think the R was much better off with the R-44. They seem to have more seating and the bucket seats discourage people from taking up more than one seat. The electronic signs are easily read and recognizable. It also has a much more modern feeling about it.
Am I alone in my thinking?
I'm sure you mean the R-46 as opposed to the R-44. You had me confused for a minute.
I happened to notice the other night that one of the number plates from R7 1617 is in the main dining room of the Charlie Brown's restaurant in Denville, NJ. I've been there a bunch of times and never noticed it before-- most people probably don't even know what it is.... anyone else come across "memoribilia" in odd places like that?
-Dave
Yep - a number plate from R22 #7659 is on my Dad's basement wall
in Winchester VA, where, by the way I am told that they make the
precast concrete wall panels for the DC Metro.
I myself have numerous dogtags ('property of city of New York, No.xxxx'), many of them from R-1s, R-4s & R-6s in solid brass,
and 5711, 3062 (wreck) 3333 (wreck) in aluminum.
Wayne
Not a number plate, but in a TGI Friday's in Towson, MD there used to be a cast brass plate in the men's room that came from OLD Harvard Station (Boston)that said "To Trackless Trolleys". It disappeared in a subsequesnt remodeling. Wonder if one of the contractors was a fan.
> a number plate from R22 #7659 is on my Dad's basement wall
Not what i had in mind. I'm well aware that people collect these things. (I don't have any myself but...) I meant in public places like restaurants that have "old stuff" on the walls as their motif (just about any chain place like Bennigans, Fridays' etc. would qualify)
Reminds me...
Here in Shrewsbury (Monmouth County) we have a restaurant called the Pour House. It's not a chain.. but the decor is very dark but the walls are outlines with many many many old transit things. The last time I was there, I was not fully knowledgable in the transit stuff.. but it looks like old destination rolls (whatever they're called) and stuff adorn it. I think it's worth checking out.
I'll post directions if someone's interested.
I was once at a restaurant in Milwaukee that sells Chicago-style pizza, and they had Chicago posters, street signs, photos, old newspapers, etc. as the decor. Several of the signs were L station signs, and I think they had an old L system map sign.
Subway Stamp Shop, when they were still on Nassau St., had bulkhead route and side destination roller curtains recessed in the walls in their store.
Ellen's Stardust Diner - 1650 Broadway (51st St & Broadway). As a former Miss Subways she has a lot that stuff hanging around.
For those who have never been there - you can't miss it. The outside of the place looks like a RedBird (numbered 1650 - the address). The inside is more of a 1950's motif. The food is pretty good. The prices - about what one would expect for the area.
Here in the Tampa- St Petersburg, FL area, there's a chain of "New York Style" pizzerias called Lenny & Vinny's in which the decor is pretty much old subway maps, and station signs and even some hand rails and hand grips from scrapped subway cars. very nostalgic touch the pizza, however is a different story.
You can have your own subway number plates ... the Branford Trolley Museum, this past weekend I saw a couple with several in hand.
Mr t__:^)
The MTH (Mikes Train House) New York City Transit sets are being delivered to dealers at the present time. I just received mine today.
For a brief review, see my Model Sub Talk posting at www.iop.com/~patv/railroad.html. These are very nice O gauge "tinplate" models available at reasonable cost. See them now at your local hobby shop!
Are there any in HO gauge?
Wayne
If anyone else saw todays Daily News, Page 39 of the Metro
edition (CNL) has an ad for 'Abe Hischfeld for (NY State)
Comptroller' Does anyone want to join me in asking Mr Hirschfeld
how he intends to pay for rebuilding the entire subway system and
commuter rail network in NY State so his 'Ruber-tired bullet
trains' can run? This guy has the downright dopiest platform Ihave ever SEEN!
-Hank
Hank,
I never read the Daily News (You have to plow through too many murders, rapes and other sensationalist garbage to get to anything that really matters, ditto the Post), but I can comment to the effect that Abe Hirshfeld (not to be confused with the famous celebrity caricaturist Al Hirschfield) is a very rich gadfly who, for the past 40-50 years, has run for virtually every New York State elective office at least once! He has come up with many such unbelievably impractical or impossible ideas (I'd love to see his bullet trains rounding the curve on the 2/3 between Chambers St. and Park Pl.) on many subjects.
It seems unlikely that very many people ever take him seriously, although perhaps he should run for Patient Liaison Officer at Bellvue!
Bob Sklar
Why the hell is this guy promoting rubber-tired trains? I'm sorry, but rubber tires on trains (as a rule) become unstable at above 76mph and a blow-out could be disasterous. Usually (as is the case in Montreal and Paris) there are steel wheels and safety rails to carry the train in case of a flat, but this would be completely impractical for high speed operation...
(What a nut!)
Hirshfeld is still running for various offices! His name was on the ballot in the Democratic Party Primary only yesterday, although I've already forgotten what office he was running for.
Bob Sklar
Just got my copy of the Cubic newsletter. It contains a lot of happenings in the Orient & London, but locally:
- NYC: New Bus Service, one of the "privates", is getting a "BAU", i.e. bill accepting unit for it's Cubic farebox. I think Liberty maybe getting a few too since the quantity is 220. I know some of the other "privates" were also interested, but not us.
- NYC: Also the centerfold has a nice photo of a turnstile being installed.
- Chicago: Gilbert Jimenez of CTA boasts (in August 3rd edition of the Chicago Tribune) of a $11 M shrinkage, i.e. lot of more bucks are rolling in, due in large part to the new fareboxes & turnstiles. (less employee theft, human error (counting coins ?), transfer fraud, fare evasion (I thought that was only a NY thing). Also of interest ... the 1993 contract included "... contactless smart devices, intended for later implementation ...". Hmmmm ... can you say Washington D.C. ?
And to my TA friends, did you know the boob tube in the subway booth is called a "TBT", Token Booth Terminal.
Mr t__:^)
For some more info on Cubic Transportation Systems' fare collection, check out their website:
http://www.cubic.com/annualrpt/cts/index.html
There is a scan of the 1997 Annual Report. Some pictures Mr. T described are shown, including one of 400 stainless steel "Iron Maidens" (complete with Metrocard swiper, natch).
Cubic has installed $1.3B worth of fare systems in NY, Chicago, DC, Singapore, Kuala Lamlpur, Hong Kong, Seoul and Sidney. Coming soon to Shanghai, Guangzhou, Thailand and Canada.
References are made to smartcards in D.C., Chicago, London and several Asian cities, plus flight information systems at both Heathrow and Gatwick.
To view Cubic's other branches: http://www.cubic.com/
It's interesting that their Newsletter offers a e-mail address, but doesn't mention the Web site, thanks for the input !
Mr t__:^)
For some more info on Cubic Transportation Systems' fare collection, check out their website:
http://www.cubic.com/annualrpt/cts/index.html
There is a scan of the 1997 Annual Report. Some pictures Mr. T described are shown, including one of 400 stainless steel "Iron Maidens" (complete with Metrocard swiper, natch).
Cubic has installed $1.3B worth of fare systems in NY, Chicago, DC, Singapore, Kuala Lamlpur, Hong Kong, Seoul and Sidney. Coming soon to Shanghai, Guangzhou, Thailand and Canada.
References are made to smartcards in D.C., Chicago, London and several Asian cities, plus flight information systems at both Heathrow and Gatwick.
To view Cubic's other branches: http://www.cubic.com/
It's interesting that their Newsletter offers a e-mail address, but doesn't mention the Web site, thanks for the input !
Mr t__:^)
I have recently discovered that one of the frequent contributors here is a girl, ohhhh and you thought this was a guy think.
Maybe she grew up as a tom boy, in any case I enjoy her input !!!!
Mr t__:^)
[I have recently discovered that one of the frequent contributors here is a girl, ohhhh and you thought this was a guy thing.]
Well, don't keep us in suspense, who is it? And while you're at it, how did you find out? Inquiring minds want to know ... uh, I think that line's been used before :-)
Sorry, won't tell ... I'll leave that up to her !
Mr t__:^)
[Sorry, won't tell ... I'll leave that up to her !]
Hmmm. It might not be all that hard to guess which regular poster is a woman, as there aren't many gender-neutral screen names. Depending on how you define regular, the number of candidates actually might be in the single digits. But I'd better not try to guess, as mistakes could be insulting :-)
No more hints, sorry. Mr t__;-)
I thought I saw a lady's name attached to a few postings recently. I know what it is, but with due respect to that individual, I won't mention the name.
Since more than a dozen or so people posting here use femanine names, that should hardly come as a suprise. What suprises me is that it comes as a shock to you.
BTW - Someone posted here a few weeks ago under the name of a famous Actress (albiet Adult Entertainment). I'm suprised that a guy who's on top of things as you seem to be, missed her.
[re woman posting regularly to this board]
[Since more than a dozen or so people posting here use femanine names, that should hardly come as a suprise. What suprises me is that it comes as a shock to you.]
I sure don't come up with a dozen or so regulars. Every now and then there'll be a posting under a woman's name. But if you consider regular participants in threads, the sort of people whose names come up repeatedly, it's a different story - nearly all of them have men's or gender-neutral names.
Things are much the same on nyc.transit and misc.transport.urban-transit. It looks like women by and large aren't too interested in transit matters.
Kind of reminds of the discussion of engineers in Dilbert. Dilbert joins the Scientests Anti-Defamation League to combant stereotypes of people in technical professions, including the fact that they are all male. But everyone in the organization IS male, and they all want to work the projector.
Not only are most of the people who discuss transit issues here male, but most of the women who have posted have been looking for human interest stories.
My six year old daughter really likes the subway, and SEEMS to find infrastructure interesting. What do you think? Will it last, or is she just humoring me?
[Not only are most of the people who discuss transit issues here male, but most of the women who have posted have been looking for human interest stories.]
What's interesting is that women comprise a fairly high percentage of transit workers, especially compared to other transportation jobs. You'll hardly ever see a woman driving a truck, at least in New York, but female train operators and conductors on the subway and commuter lines are common. I guess this doesn't carry over into "railfan-type" interest.
[My six year old daughter really likes the subway, and SEEMS to find infrastructure interesting. What do you think? Will it last, or is she just humoring me?]
Only time will tell ...
"...female train operators and conductors on the subway and commuter lines are common."
In New York. Here in Chicago, the CTA has a lot of women bus drivers and train operators (though I think the title is still "Motorman"), but the Metra has VERY few female conductors or trainmen. I think I've seen three in my lifetime, and I ride Metra almost as much as ride the L.
We here at one of the "privates" have quit a few too. Mr t__:^)
Might it be that in order to take part in these discussions, it is necessary to be a regular internet user?
Does anyone know if this "Open House" is open to Mr. & Mrs. John Q. Public or just MTA employees & their families? I would love to take my children, but alas I am not a MTA employee. Please e-mail me by Friday evening with an answer at: fries@ucs.net
thank you so very much!!
Another request for historical information on record holders for the fastest ride through the entire NYC subway system. I held that record for a few months in 1967. This was a more popular thing to do in the 60's I guess. Today the interest seems to be equipment and why your ears pop!
From The Daily Targum (Rutgers University daily newspaper) 9/11/98
Commuters given sight for sore eyes
Student artists from Rutgers display their work at New York's Penn Station
By Jennifer Snow
NEW YORK - Amid the sounds of blaring jackhammers, commuters rushing through
New York's Penn Station during the next several weeks will be able to stop to take in
the art of 15 Rutgers-Newark students.
According to Sue Wehmann, manager of NJ Transit's Transit
Art Program, Rutgers-Newark was chosen to participate in this
project because of the involvement of Kathy Schnapper,
director of the Robeson Gallery, with the Transit Art
Committee for the Newark/Elizabeth rail-link project.
Schnapper, along with Francisco Garcia, a 1997 graduate of
Rutgers-Newark, coordinated the project.
More than 40 student artists submitted proposals to cover the
42 four-by-eight foot plywood panels that now serve as a
barricade to hide construction near the highly trafficked Seventh
Avenue entrance to the station's main concourse.
The pieces were selected because they embody images of
transportation, movement and motion, although some convey
these ideas more clearly than others do, Garcia said.
The works are viewed daily by thousands of commuters on NJ Transit, the Long Island
railroad, the New York City subway and Amtrak.
Many commuters stopped to look at the massive mural. Several were impressed that it
was students' work chosen to mask the construction site, though some were uninspired
by the abstract art.
"It is a nice idea and it definitely enhances the mood and covers up the construction, but
I'm not sure if I appreciate it much as art," said a traveler arriving at Penn Station earlier
this week.
"The majority of the pieces were very successful," Garcia said, "but all were very well
done.
"This was a great opportunity for the University, for the art department, for the gallery
and for the students. We all fed off of each other. A lot of raw talent and ambition,
along with the help of great teachers, guided us."
The students completed the works in six weeks on the fifth floor of Bradley Hall, home
of the Rutgers-Newark visual and performing arts department.
After construction is completed on the main concourse, the mural, which is now
property of NJ Transit, may be moved and reused elsewhere in Penn Station or along
other state rail lines, according to published reports.
For those who wanted to go to Westchester Yard's open house, it is NOT open to the general public. I don't see why they can't open it to the general public. MTA employees are invited to go in and have some fun. There will be assorted rides throughout the day as well as tours of the two shops (diesel and passanger car). The gift shop of the Transit Museum will be there to sell items of enjoyment.
What I really wanted to talk about were the rides.... There are trips scheduled to go between the yard and the 6 line at Hunts Point Av. Also for kids like me, there will be rides in the diesel locomotives. According the Railway Preservation Corp.'s Lo-Vs will be there (in operation) as is an antiquated SMEE train (trains produced after 1947 - also in operation). The antiquated SMEE train was supposed to be the IRT cars from the Transit Museum (R12/15/17/33). The Museum has refused to let these cars because of prior engagements.
This is where it gets interesting. I went to Westchester Yard today to see if there was anything peculiar. And I found something. The Lo-Vs have arrived for the festival. The Lo-Vs now have black roofs after getting a paint job at Coney Island recently. Lo-Vs will probably stay here until the 9/27 trip. Meanwhile, the antiquated SMEE train has turned out to be a shocker. Hold your breath for this: If it is what I think it is, they are using two (maybe four) IRT work motors for the ride. R12/14s 5782 and 5871 were transferred to Westchester Yard. I reported to Dave Pirmann that these were being held for the Transit Museum. They are in the 1970s MTA blue and silver scheme. The cars don't have fresh paint and one of their NUMBER PLATES says 35782. Even the gate is bent on one of the cars! What are they thinking about? The other two I believe that will be in use possibly, will be R17 6895 and R22 7486. The four cars were positioned behind the Lo-Vs. The R17 and 22 though are in yellow paint with black stripes!!! I'll have to see it to believe it. I'll be at the fest tomorrow. Someone's has got to take pictures! I can see the Lo-Vs, work motors going to Hunts Point Av (maybe).
Cheers,
Constantine
I believe two connections between the subways and the railroads were recently severed ("L"/LIRR Bay Ridge along Junius St and the remains of the NYW&B between 180th St and AMTRAK. If this is true, what connections still exist between the subways and other railroads?
Bob Sklar
[I believe two connections between the subways and the railroads were recently severed ("L"/LIRR Bay Ridge along Junius St and the remains of the NYW&B between 180th St and AMTRAK. If this is true, what connections still exist between the subways and other railroads?]
As far as I know, there's still a connection with the LIRR (or is it now NY&A?) Bay Ridge line within the Linden Iron Shops. That's close to the former direct connection with the L. Both the L and the 3 can access the Linden Shops via an unpowered wye.
I don't know if the carfloat connection in Brooklyn is still active.
Carfloat connection in Brooklyn at 3rd Avenue & 39th Street still there. In fact the section between 2nd Avenue and 3rd Avenue was recently rebuilt around the Price Costco parking lot.
[Carfloat connection in Brooklyn at 3rd Avenue & 39th Street still there. In fact the section between 2nd Avenue and 3rd Avenue was recently rebuilt around the Price Costco parking lot.]
I dunno. About a year ago I went down to that area to get a look at the connection. You're right, there was new track around the Costco lot, but the track crossing 2nd Avenue just behind the store looked to be in terrible condition. Some spilled asphalt - which looked like it had been there for a long time - blocked one of the rails.
Connections here in Chicago between Metra and the CTA are not very good and just for one station millions is being spent by both agencies.
The CTA Harlem/Lake Green Line terminal and the Metra Oak Park station are right next to each other and will soon be connected.
Metra is spending millions for the Connection after the CTA paid millions to renovate it's station along with the rest of the Green Line.
What do you think?
This will be a transfer station.
While the CTA and UPRR share a right of way, there is no track connection between the two systems in Oak Park (or anywhere along the line).
Some history --
When the Lake St. L was built, the city required that it was elevated within the city limits, which at that time extended to what is now Laramie Ave. Beyond that point, the L line ran at ground level, beside the elevated right-of-way of the C&NW RR. The C&NW (now UP) had 5 tracks through the area, but in the 1950s removed two of them. This allowed room for the L tracks to be relocated to the elevated railroad embankment west of Laramie Ave. in the 1960s.
It has been said here that the PATH system is subject to FRA rules because of the existemce of a single switch connecting PATH and Amtrak/NJT tracks in Harrison, NJ. The NYC subway, of course, is not subject to these rules. Is it because the connection discussed in the preceding message is in a yard, rather than on track which are in revenue service?
According to the "Code of Federal Regulations", that would seem to be the case.
Newsday had a story that candidate for Governor Peter Vallone was shocked to find out that the subways over the Willie B would be shut down for five months next year. We allocated money to fix that bridge years ago, he said. Is this the same guy who just cut the city's contribution to the TA's capital plan? I guess people are starting to catch on to the fact that there is a problem. My favorite phrase is Infrastructure Vietnam.
If you sit near the conductor's booth on LIRR, you can sometimes hear a bell ringing. It doesn't seem to happen near some of the booths, only certain ones. Typically, the bell will sound & then the train usually slows down a bit. Who is ringing the bell & what does it signify & to whom is it intended ?
It's the "speed control" bell, and it's for the engineer. He gets a few secs to hit the acknowlage button and put the train in Max Brake, or he gets a free emergency application. How embaressing.
It means he's going too fast. Sometimes the system drops out for a sec, and you hear it ring, other times, it's because the signal changed. Watch out the front of an LIRR train, and you'll notice that there aren't many wayside signals anymore.
Metro-North's M-2s use a whistle, which can be anywhere from quiet to super loud.
The Boston subway lines that have a similar "overspeed" system call it the "hooter." But it's more of a high-pitched sound, similar to that I've heard on CTA trains.
Actually, as I understand the system, the signal sounds every time there is a change in signal aspect or speed code. While the engineer MUST acknowledge the signal, he may not have to change his speed.
What steps do you take to become a motorman or conductor for the New York City Subway System. Any information on this topic would be greatly appreciated and helpful. Thank you for your time!
Motorman is a promotion from the following titles:conductor, bus driver,(Brooklyn division and 126 st depot only because Queens division and Staten Island are different unions),railroad clerk, and cleaner.So you have to get your foot in the door first to go to motorman.All of these jobs involve civil service tests.A good newspaper to check is "The Chief" which comes out on tuesdays.
It's *supposed* to sound, however, I've seen it drop from 80 to 0 and back withouit ringing - if it does it rather quickly it's wson't get triggered. I've also seen trains where it goes off after passing over EVER impeadence bond, track switch, etc. I think some trains are more sensitive than others.
BTW, the system is all frequency sensitive relays, they actually have to be "tuned" like a piaon every now and then...
If its open to the public will someone please post it with directions and date/time.
It is open to TA employees only...... Check my earlier post as well as the one by A.Pardi.
-Constantine
Does anyone know what the busiest rail station(station or terminal) is in the US? I hear Coney Island. And this goes for commuter railroads too, so I assume the LIRR may blow the subway out of the water.
My guess would be:
Times Square
Grand central (subway)
14th street
Main Street
I'd put Penn low on the list, the 7 line probbly has more ridership than the entire LIRR...
In terms of total revenue train movements in a 24 hour period:
For subways, West 4th Street wins. Remeber that Times Square is a collection of five separate stations (including 42d/8th Ave.).
For commuter rail, Penn Station is probably #1 (LIRR and NJ Transit).
Actually, I think I once heard that Jamaica Station on the LIRR was the busiest commuter rail station in the country. In addition to nearly all of the Penn Station trains (only the Port Washington branch doesn't go through Jamaica), Jamaica also has all of the Flatbush Ave trains as well as the diesels which terminate in Jamaica or continue to Hunterspoint.
This was definitely before NJT's Midtown Direct service began, which may have evened the score a bit.
According to NYCT's Facts and Figures as quoted in Stan Fischler's The Subway:
1-- Times Square complex ......33.4 million *
2-- Grand Central .............29.9 *
3-- 34th Herald Square.........21.9
4-- Penn Sta IRT...............18.9 *
5-- Penn Sta IND...............16.3 *
7-- 51 and Lex.................15.4
6-- 14th Union Square..........15.7
8-- Chambers/WTC complex.......15.3 *
9-- 86 and Lex.................13.7
* I worked at one or more booths in this station.
Note that there is a typo in the book : 51 and Lex is actually number 7 and Union Square is number 6
Now personal Opinion: I also worked W4 and personally the most I did at night was at W4 but it seems that Revenue says otherwise.
disclaimer: While based on official data (available when book was published), the opinions expressed are my own and not those of MTA or NYCT
[According to NYCT's Facts and Figures as quoted in Stan Fischler's The Subway:
1-- Times Square complex ......33.4 million *
2-- Grand Central .............29.9 *
3-- 34th Herald Square.........21.9
4-- Penn Sta IRT...............18.9 *
5-- Penn Sta IND...............16.3 *
7-- 51 and Lex.................15.4
6-- 14th Union Square..........15.7
8-- Chambers/WTC complex.......15.3 *
9-- 86 and Lex.................13.7]
Rankings could have been different if Times Square were classified as two stations rather than one. While it's true that the passageway puts it all in one fare zone, 42 Street on the A/C/E is physically quite separate from the rest.
I suppose, though, if fares were used for the rankings, there would be no way to split up Times Square.
What are the specs of the LIRR and is it true it's the top commuter railroad in the US?(It sure was packed enough when I was on it.)
I can't recall the ridership numbers, but the LIRR definitely is the busiest commuter line in the country.
I remember that in the early 90's, NYC Transit had their buses equiped with GFI fareboxes. These fareboxes had a slot for a farecard to be swiped. Why could'nt the TA use these fareboxes for the Metrocard? Was the farecard slot ever used in test programs and whatever happened to these fareboxes?
Because the MetroCard (tm) was made by Cubic.
Since GFI isn't Cubic, you can't do that neat trick.
Welcome to the world of non standardization, where everyone is proprietary and nothing works together. Standard fare for the computer industry....
Some of the GFI boxes with the card slot are on the Roosevelt Island buses, which replaced older "jiggling" sounded fareboxes. The slot is not used though.
Some of the last NYC-DOT GFI Fareboxes that were bought came with the card reader slot, i'm not sure if they were bought that way or not. We got them from Liberty Lines (they had extra boxes, we had a shortage).
I once called the main sales guy at GFI, he said that their swipe card reader could be ADJUSTED to read/write to Metrocards, but couldn't get the necessary technical details out of the MTA/TA.
CTtransit & Phoenix use GFI boxes with swipe readers on top. They're time vs. value based. I think there's another city in the US that has a value swipe card version of this GFI box, but the name doesn't come to mind.
P.S. I find it very interesting that the TA ran a test & when we, at the privates, fought to keep the GFI boxes, they never said a word. We wanted to keep the GFI for the bill module.
P.P.S. The current TA version on bues still has a "GFI" base. "Ours" is 100 % Cubic.
Disclaimer: I didn't call as part of any TA/DOT decision, I was just nosy !
Mr t__:^)
For which private co. do you work, Thurston? I have some items from Queens, Steinway and Green Lines, but nothing from Triboro, Jamaica, Command, or NYBS. Can you help?
Queens Surface Corp., which is Queens AND Steinway now. If you want to talk in more detail click on my name & send e-mail off-line. Tks.
You only need to add Liberty to make list all "seven privates", i.e. NYC-DOT & Westchester both have arrangements with the B-Line.
Varsity is also affiliated with the "Cooper group" but they carry different type of folks in NYC, they also used to be big in the school bus business, which some of the others still are, we aren't.
FOR THE RECORD ONE TIME: we have a fleet of 287 (MCIs, Orions & GMC/TMCs no Nova RTSs) & have 70 CNG comming this Fall. Our oldest RTS are the -02s, A/C was an add on, the MCI's have one door. To "make service" we have to put about 230 buses on the road, about 1/2 local & 1/2 express. Since we have more RTS than MCI some Express routes get an RTS, particularily if we frequently need a wheel chair lift on that route. Locals run in Queens, Express from the city line & after a few stops go express to 34th or Wall Street. Our Depot is brand new just down the street from the old one in College Point. Most of the other "privates" may come to us for CNG fill-ups (DOT pays for the gas), since we have a three lane fast system (takes just a few minutes).
Enough said, repeat, if you have more questions please feel free to send me e-mail off line.
Mr t__:^)
Memphis, TN also has GFI fare boxes (No cards) and Atlanta ,GA has GFI with Card swipe readers. Also CCT in CObb Co,. Ga also has GFI boxes with the reader unit.
Hay great input, I didn't know you cared anything about Fareboxes, maybe you should consider changing your handle ?
Also add: Cleveland, OH (RTA) w/586 buses; LA (County MTA, only a small operation); Grand Rapids, MI (74); Spokane WA (STA w/115); Chattanooga, TN (CARTA w/48 or 107); Santa Fe, but the latter is/was a hybrid system mfg by Phoenix (Valley Metro).
Also eye believe you should subtract Atlanta ... this is an odd one: The trains went from Cubic to GFI (76 stations), while the buses (682) went the other way for the Olympics. I haven't seen anything recently in the trades, so I'll wait for one of our South-of-the-border friends to update us.
Eye think you'll see I got very nosy about who was doing what when the TA decided they knew what was good for us.
Disclaimer: Obviously I don't work for the TA or any of it's div., but now totally support their decision ;-)
Mr t__:^)
I heard that in 1989 or about, the TA was testing their GFI fareboxes with the farecard on Staten Island Express buses. What were these tests about, was the card a monthly or weekly time based pass, or it was value-based with the farebox deducting rides from the card.
I belive it was a 'ride count' pass, that is, it counted rides. The test didn't work out. I've seen them, but never really used one. They were supposed to eliminate the x-bus token when they came out. Didn't work, and the x-bus token came back.
-Hank
Well it didn't work HERE, but CT Transit & Valley Metro (Phoenix) likes it very much thank you.
P.S. The GFI system also uses a monthly pass, good for unlimited rides for the month, AND Phoenix has has a school pass good for the semester, this one for college students.
P.P.S. The "privates" "Travel Card" was a qty of rides card, i.e. no value on the card, s-o-o-o-o-o it DID work on the express buses, though was not used on the TA fleet.
P.P.P.S. In Phoenix & Santa Fe you can even swip your CREDIT CARD !
Mr t__:^)
When I was an alleged student at Brooklyn Tech, we were involved with a test program that used rather thick (by MetroCard standards) plastic card for students using the Dekalb Ave station and buses. There was a swipe slot on the turnstile that was removed when the program ended. Additionally, ALL the passes had to be collected after the one-month (which I was involved in) test. The bus readers were the problem then. People, I'm assuming TA maintainers, or bus drivers, would force pennies and dimes into the car reader slot, which would prevent the card from being swiped.
-Hank
I believe that the GFI fareboxes farecard slot was not thick enough for a thick farecard. In addition, with the pass they gave out, was it good for both the buses and subways, was it time based like a monthly or weekly pass, or it was per- ride based like the metrocard. Also two turnstiles were being tested at this time, Cubic ones without the overhead, and Perey ones that looked similar to their standard stainless steel token turnstiles. What was the complete story with these early AFC tests, and this is to anyone who knows.
I find it very interesting that from 1994 on the AFC group at Livingston Plaza, Brooklyn were mum on this. I asked questions & they looked at me like I had two heads.
I also thinks it's just great that NY Bus Service & Liberty had the balls to push to bring bills back despite the opposition in the TA. I just wonder if Cubic will be punished in some way for talking to them.
Disclaimer: Opinions expressed here R my own & not my employeer.
Mr t__:^)
Hello friends , my name is Thomas Maley can any 1 tell me if or when the R62A cars are coming to the #7 line any time soon also any word about the new trains yet please let me know a s a p please I apprieciate it very much also what lines will the new trains go to and what lines are the R62A cars coming from once again thank you in this matter Thomas Maley lordmickel@aol.com
Does Metro North, SEPTA, or LIRR have summer programs for teens?
What is the minimum age to work with one of these railroads?
Once I'm "of age" how do I go about applying??
What training would I go through??
thanks.
The MTA has High School & College Intern programs. They are a great way to make some good contacts for future employment. However, these are not operating jobs. Operating jobs are not available for several reasons. Primary among them is the fact that the unions would not let unpaid interns take jobs of dues-paying members. Second, operating jobs are dangerous for those who have not been thoroughly trained and at the same time, you would not be covered by Workers Comp. As for part time jobs, the TA does not have them. Check with the LIRR about Summer jobs as an Assistant Conductor.
Does anyone know why the E trains today were terminating at 34 Street-Penn Station rather than at WTC? This wasn't even mentioned on the subway service page on the MTA website.
David L.
I noticed the same thing today. An A train motorman told me that a concrete pour at Chambers St. was the cause. A trains were running local from Chambers St. to 207th St, while E trains only ran as far south as 34th St. No C trains were running. Passengers transferred at 42d St from the E to southbound A trains.
Apprarently, the Chambers-WTC terminal normally used by C and E trains was unusuble, accounting for the rerouting. This service pattern will continue into early Monday morning, Sept. 14.
When are they ever going to put up the new wall tile at the
Chambers Street "A" train location (last I saw, the panels were
in little sheds on the platform) 0r have they already done it?
Thanks
Wayne
They are installing a full diamond crossover at Canal in addition to this project.
How were E trains being turned around at 34th St.? Did they use the switches to the storage track south of the station? That would seem to be the only way to do it.
There is a movie on Showtime this month, "Mimic", which takes place mostly in the subways. The trains and stations all look really fake, but a good portion of the movie takes place in what looks like the abandoned City Hall Station, but what is called in the movie, "The Armory"
You better believe it's fake.
By the way, what the hell is a "CR-17 from Coney Island"? Ive heard of (and been on) an R-17, but never a CR-17 . . . I have to admit, though, that the front resembled an R-17, but the side of the train looked like nothing I've ever seen on NYCTA property.
Moreover, even if this so-called CR-17 was masquerading as an old IRT car, it would have NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER been assigned to Coney Island.
Oh yeah, and the last time I checked, the Transit Authority isn't exactly into the habit of storing retired subway cars in abandoned stations
These damn Hollywood producers think they know everthing . . . gimmie a break.
It's the same old story: most filmmakers figure the average Joe Moviegoer won't know the difference or doesn't care. Every movie I've ever seen with subway footage has some deviation from absolute authenticity; some come closer than others. IMHO, The French Connection and the original Pelham 1-2-3 come the closest.
BTW, Court St. was used for storage before it was reopened as a movie set and, subsequently, became the Transit Museum.
A new York filmmaker should do d picture set in LA with the red line going to Long Beach and the blue line going to hollywood! He could also add some colors they don't have. :-)
Another movie that has a fair number of subway scenes is PI. It's actually filmed in the real subway so there aren't any inconsistencies there. However, there is one scene where two camera angles are spliced together. One is in Times Square - the other Prospect Park. Given the bizzarre nature of the movie, this was probably intentional. PI is playing at the Angelika (Mercer & Houston).
You're absolutely right - Joe Moviegoer probably WON'T know the
difference between an "A" and a "Z" train, but we transit buffs DO ---
It makes me wince every time I see a butchered route: look at
"The Cowboy Way" - the first stop in Brooklyn is 62nd Street? Oh well,
gotta hand it to the stuntmen AND my old friend #4310...
and "Ghost" - back and forth between R38 and Slant R40 (watch the
car number behind the skell's head - it's #4208 - surely a Slant 40.)
And there was some other film, can't remember, might be "The Warriors"
where they changed wall signs a number of times, but we all know what
the station was - HOYT-SCHERMERHORN. But as much as some of these
gaffes DO make me wince, I'm always glad to see a subway train in a
movie. (BTW - Pelham 1-2-3: they pasted a fake frieze on the wall
to make it look line 28th St, but it's really Court Street)
WHAT MAKES ME MADDEST OF ALL? When they film a subway scene in
Toronto and then try and pass it off as NYC. No offence meant to
the City of Toronto or their subway system.
Wayne
Are you sure that "28th St." in the original Pelham was actually Court St.? If you look closely, you'll see that "28th St." in the movie consists of one track and one platform; Court St. has two tracks and an island platform. If anything, I'll bet they used the lower level at 42nd St. for the 28th St. scenes. Even so, the train would have had to wrong-rail into the station.
Court St. was used in the original, in fact. I'm speculating that the scene in which Mattson, the veteran conductor, gets off at "Grand Central", was shot at Court St. Note that our 6 train pulls in on what would be express track and the doors open to the right; in actuality, the opposite is true at Grand Central (the doors would open to the left). Also, if you look closely at the train across the platform, one of the cars is an R-10, #2973, I think.
And, yes, Hoyt-Schermerhorn was used as 96th St. in The Warriors. It was also used as 57th St. AND 42nd St. in Nighthawks.
I was under the impression that the scenes in"Pelham" were shot at the former Court St. station---the Transit Museum. Has anyone figured out why "The Money Train" would go to the huge expense of reproducing a subway tunnel and station in Los Angeles and not get the details right? They show indicator signs at "Wall Street" for the #6 train which,of course, has terminated at Brooklyn Bridge for years now.
And "Wall St." in Money Train is, in fact, Union Square in disguise. "Bowling Green" isn't right, either. The set that they used was the longest one ever built: 4000 feet long with, I believe, three stations. While the pillar placement looks good, the roof is unusually high, and, of course, the stations all appear to be local stops.
Lest we forget what took place in that movie: an overturning train car, a motorcycle ride through the tunnel, a collion at track speed.....a smash through a solid barrier...can't do that on the real system. I believe the overturning sequence was modeled, however.
-Hank
That's exactly why they used a subway set. I heard it took two months to film the sequence in which our two cop friends are hanging on to the car sides as it races through the tunnel.
The only genuine station in Money Train, BTW, is 33rd St.-Park Ave. Appatently, the action in that scene takes place during the late hours, as the 4 runs express during all other times.
There aren't any subways in this scene, but I remember the 1966 Batman movie, in which Batman and Robin are puffing and panting uptown towards the United Nations building, while the street signs show a progression of numbered streets.
It's no wonder they're getting tired! The street signs show that they are alternately running through New York and Los Angeles!
Bob Sklar
[It's no wonder they're getting tired! The street signs show that they are alternately running through New York and Los Angeles!]
It's Gotham City man!
Batman try to be accurate? I shudder to think!
What can you say about a show which is sprinkled with twisted references to New York?: Mayor Linseed, Governor Stonefellow, New Guernsey, just to name a few. And speaking of twisted names, how does J. Pauline Spaghetti grab you?
What a great show at the King of Prussia Holiday Inn on Sept. 12!
All kinds of trolley layouts and great transit tapes. Hey Mark, your
tape I bought is super! (only looked at 1 hr. of it so far). Also, it was great to meet you in person! Good luck with your future filming!
Chuck Greene
Since the vast majority of people who board the F at 179th in the a.m are commuting to Manhattan, did anyone ever think of offering a F train superexpress, the first stop of which would be Lexington Ave...it seems that something like this is needed, would be VERY useful, and would get ridership...any thoughts?
Absolutely no way! By the time the E & F leave Roosevelt Ave, they are packed to capacity & follow each other ome behind the other. By having a Super Express from 179, the train would be under capacity loading, and wouldn't make up much time since it will catch up to other trains down the line with no way to pass them by. It would be unfair to other riders down the line to have a train with room to board pass them by, while when their train comes in, they would be lucky to get in! With all due respect, this sounds like a very self serving idea for ME & MY TRAVEL MATES AT MY STATION, and to hell with everyone else!
I don't know if you have ever taken the F from 179th during rush hour, but that train is jammed the moment it leaves 179th. A super-express would only ease congestion, leaving more seats on regular F trains...since many of those who would be jamming those trains will be on the superexpress.
You still have the problem of not enough tracks and no way to pass. The real question is -- when you can have up to 30 trains on both the local and express going to Manhattan, should the TA eliminate the express stop at 74th St Roosevelt during rush hours? That would allow an express run from Forest Hills to Queens Plaza -- or all the way to Manhattan for trains using the 63rd St tunnel. Those in inner stops would have the benefit of more locals direct to Manhattan to balance the loss of an opportunity to cram on the express.
Isn't there a reverse signalling project planned for the Queens Blvd. line that would permit a 'super-express' type of service.
(Reverse signaling -- two express tracks in) That was one of the many options considered for the 63rd St tunnel. It would have required a yard somewhere in Manhattan for all those trains which could not return to Queens to be stored, as well as that many more trains which would only be used in one direction in the morning. Another super-express proposal involved turning two of the six LIRR tracks over to the NYCTA for super-express service.
Ultimately, the TA decided on a simple connection, which would allow more local trains to travel to Manhattan (rather than to Brooklyn via the Crosstown). It also provides re-route option -- with multiple connections -- so that every problem near the 53rd St tunnel doesn't lead to disaster (wish we had that in BK for the Manhattan Bridge).
Hence my orignial question: with all those extra locals running to Manhattan, why not skip 74th St-Roosevelt during rush hour for a "super-express" ride direct to Manhattan?
The 63rd St. tunnel was originally supposed to be tied into the LIRR ROW resulting in a super-express line across Queens. As we all know, the city's fiscal crisis of the 70s put an end to all that. Even so, the 63rd St. tunnel and Archer Ave. lines were built anyway, while construction on the 2nd Ave. line never resumed. Go figure. They got their priorities fouled up, IMHO.
I think the 63rd St project was restarted mostly because it was nearly completed, and the Archer Ave line was built mostly because the Jamaica Ave line was falling down. The Second Ave. line would require a lot more money.
The 63rd St connection will help, I believe, by putting some flexibility in the system. We need similar flexibility in Brooklyn vis a vis the Manhattan Bridge. The BMT southern can route over three tracks, and that's good. But two of them are on the bridge, and that's bad.
Larry's idea of skipping 75th-Roosevelt Ave. has merit; I suppose it would be better than nothing. The problem is that by the time a morning rush-hour F reaches there from 179th, it is jammed far beyond what any sardine has ever been forced to endure.
If people think it is unrealistic to run a F straight to Manhattan from 179th, then at least how about a train that stopped in Queens only at, say 71st-Continental, and Queens Plaza? That would enable the people riding the hypothetical F super-express who wanted to make connections to make them, while making the ride shorter and much more bearable for that vast majority who are going into Manhattan.
Maybe we can't have the ideal situation...all I know is that it seems to me possible to do something...and when something can be done, there is no excuse for doing nothing.
Some posts last month were about this subject. FYI, I was at today's Yankee game and returned to Manhattan via the D train. An obviously extra put-in train arrived at 161/River Ave. when I arrived on the downtown platform (the train was empty). It dwelled for approx. 5 minutes, filled up, and left. It did not make 155 St - next stop was 145 St, after which it continued as a normal D express to 34th St. (terminated there due to Manhattan Bridge inspection work this weekend).
I was wondering if anybody was interested in trading promotional Metrocards. I have 2 Montreux Jazz Festival/Time Warner Metrocards to trade. I will trade for ANY promotional Metrocard.
I am especially looking for the US Open Tennis Metrocard and the Emigrant Savings Bank "immigrant" Metrocards.
PLEASE let me know if you are interested. Thanks a million!!!
Dip/swipe card users: I'ld love to trade your for mine. I have about 3 dozen, most with duplicates.
I have a special interest in out-of-NYC cards !
P.S. I also have a token collection, but that's another story.
Mr t__:^)
I will trade you up to four US Open metrocards if you can find me a
1998 CBS Sports US Open lapel pin.
Interesting side note: At the country fair in CT I went to Labor Day is saw a guy selling Rock & Roll Back Stage Passes. He had quite a varity for $5.00 a piece. My teenagers have been to a few concerts in the area, so for a moment I almost bought some, then I thought these can't all be real ! But then for $5.00 maybe it didn't realy matter.
Mr t__:^)
Friday as I was leaving J&R Computer World, I saw an unusual bus across Park Row at City Hall. As I got closer, I noticed it was in TA colors, and was on the M103. It was a new low-floor hybrid electric! I knew they were considering them, but didn't know one was running in service yet. It was not the same ons shown on the Bus-Talk card a couple of years ago. it only had 2 axles (the earlier one had three)
Unlike the low floor flyer, it is all the same level. the floor is not higher in the back.
It also had full cushion seats (but this is only for the test), and the rear had a window in the left half and a booth in the right corner for electrical stuff. According to the bus roster, this was the first of 10 to be assigned to Jackie Gleason next year (it is at Manhattanville, now).
I had no idea it was out now. But it's quite interesting.
please give me the address of that bus roster again. im having trouble getting it. thanks.
http://hometown.aol.com/Glenn6398/index3.html
It's not listed as being at Manhattanville, yet. This is still the August list. The new one will probably come out this week (the ERA meeting is Friday) or next; however long they get posted after he prints them.
As a fan of rts 4212 I was appalled to see that Fresh Pond depot had the audacity to take off the Bronx style numbering on the bottom left rear of the bus.It was replaced with the m.t.a, new york city transit logo.If the lousy,no good management of Fresh Pond depot didn't want to keep the numbering on, they should have sent the bus back to the Bronx,along with the rest of the 4200's they have.While I am at it,they don't even deserve the 1996 and 1998 novas they currently have.(My real wish is that all novas and orions dissappear from the system).As a matter of fact,Iam thinking about organizing a protest over this.They have violated a time honored Bronx tradition.They must be held accountable for their actions.
We'll trade you all our GMC-RTS-02's & -04s for your Novas & Orions.
Just kidding ....
Mr t__:^)
I like that style "Bronx" also. I'm pretty sure that had 4212 stayed at Kingsbridge, they wouldn't have applied the new logo unless the bus was re-painted. What I don't like is that new paint scheme of applying white paint in the former black spots, especially the door frames. It looks as if someone painted a bus, had some extra white paint and didn't know what to do with it.
There is a superb electronic newsletter available, and since I don't recall seeing mention of it on SubTalk, I thought I'd pass along information about it.
It's called CityRail, and is an outgrowth of The New Electric Railway Journal.
I just received the September issue today (it comes automatically via email), and it has some great, up-to-date information on subways, regional/commuter rail lines, electric trolleybus systems, etc. Subscription information is available at CityRail Headlines (they have a new subscriber special rate this month - take advantatage of it!), and back issues can be viewed at CityRail Archives.
I've been a satisfied customer of the newsletter for a number of years now, and can recommend it to my SubTalk colleagues! You can also email them for more information at mailto:cityrail@mcs.net
I left New York City as a child, in 1964. At the time I had a nearly complete set of IRT metal signs, which had to be abandoned. They were left in the bushes in an empty lot on the north side of Rutland Rd. between Troy and Schenectady Avenues in Brooklyn. This lot was next to Boys High Athletic Field.
Well, within a few years, Boys High Field was completely rebuilt, at which time it was extended all the way to Rutland Rd.
During the rebuilding, presumably someone removed those signs. I'm merely curious to know if anyone out there has any recollection (or has a parent who has any recollection) of finding these.
Thanks.
Bob Sklar
How pleased I was to notice how clean the subway/el stations were today and how fast the trains were moving(especially the stretch between Spring Garden and Race/Vine(usually around 15 mph).
But that's not why I'm here. On July 24, I saw a subway buff on the el platform at 15th St. taking photos of the track area. If you're on this site, hello. I've only met one or two other buffs in my life!(Besides my dad).
Last week at 30th St. on the el, I noticed that pieces of a third rail shoe from an M-3(recognizable to anyone who knows what a shoe on the el looks like) in the trackbed. What could cause that and does it happen often?
Also, as many of you may know, SEPTA has taken to refurbishing the street tracks for the subway-surface trolleys and I heard that the former Route 15 tracks were to become a new light rail route with cars
a la Baltimore's MTA. Anyone hear anything?
Yeah, it does break off. Even more fun, pantagraphs sometimes break off. You see a lot laying beside overhead train lines, if you know what to looks for (look for things that look like twisted lawn chairs with no webbing on them)
I went to NYC recently via NJTransit. On the stretch before the Hudson River tunnel, i saw construction for what looked like trackbeds. My dad says they're building a light rail line. Is that true or is jerking me around(like the FAST ride on CPW. Yeah, right.)
Sounds more like the Secaucus transfer station between the Hoboken lines (Boonton, Main, and Pascack Valley) and the Northeast Corridor Penn Station service (Northeast Corridor, North Jersey Coast, Midtown Direct)
I don't remember the details, but there is definitely a light rail line in the works in that general area, along the Jersey side of the Hudson.
I don't know whether they've actually started building it, but it is much talked about and I believe it's a go.
I have also seen those new trackbeds, and will be checking out any progress over the past year when I visit the area next month.
There is the Hudson Bergen Project light rail project. I do not know NJ very well to tell from memory if this area is part of the project but I will look somethings up from some info that I have filed (most likely Piled) at work. Someone else here will probably have an answer sooner. I asked about the project in generic terms a few weeks ago and they are working on the project and have equipment on order for it.
I ride past the construction every day on the way to work (in Rahway). The construction is deffinitely the Secaucus Transfer Station. As part of the project they are adding an additional track - possibly two. I don't know if that station will have any connection to the Bergen County Light rail project. I suspect it's a bit too far West for that - but it's possible.
There has also been some construction just past PATH out of Newark on the North/West Side of the tracks. An additional track was added to extend what I think is part of the Midtown Direct Service. The track quickly turns off onto another line.
According to Amtrak info kiosks in all of the major stations there is supposed to be a future connection between the Northeast Corridor and the Newark Airport Monorail. I have seen no work started on this - but I would kill for that service. The longest part of the trip (in terms of time on public transit) between Manhattan and the airport is the bus connecting Newark Penn station and the airport terminals.
Actually the Newark Airport station is well under construction.
Construction is similar to the Secaucus Transfer Station between Newark (The aqueduct portion) and N. Elizabeth. If you look at the west side of the train (at least coming North) you will be able to see the new platforms they are building. I can't remember but it also looked like they were building the monorail poles to extend to the airport on the east side of the tracks. Going south, look around in that freight yard area.
They are building a Bergen Light Rail system, but like Francis I believe that there was no plan to connect it to the Northeast Corridor.
The Bergen Light Rail project as I understand it runs from Bayonne to Hoboken station and the Jersey City waterfront up to Weehawkin and through a tunnel through the palisades to the Vince Lombardi Service Station on the Turnpike. There is no planned connection to the rest of the railroad service and appears it doesn't even come close (well except when the NEC is already in the Hudson River Tunnel).
The original poster was asking about construction visible from the PATH-- Secaucus Transfer is a few miles from the PATH at any point and is definitely not visible from the PATH line....
Original Thread post:
[I went to NYC recently via NJTransit. On the stretch before the Hudson River tunnel, i saw construction for what looked like trackbeds. My dad says they're building a light rail line. Is that true or is jerking me around(like the FAST ride on CPW. Yeah, right.) ]
Dave P. wrote:
[The original poster was asking about construction visible from the PATH-- Secaucus Transfer is a few miles from the PATH at any point and is definitely not visible from the PATH line....]
Actually Dave, the poster did not specify PATH at all. It clearly says Hudson River tunnel and NJTransit. This sounds very much like the Northeast Corridor to me. I believe we are in fact referring to the Secaucus Transfer Station.
My bad.. he did specify PATH in the title of the subject line. But I interpret this to mean past the PATH tracks in Newark/Harrison and then across the Meadowlands swamps. The poster did not indicate he was on a PATH train.
I still think it is Secaucus =)
I meant along the tracks of NJT's NE Corridor line from Trenton to NYC. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
But if that isn't the Hudson-Bergen line(I saw from a map), where is it and how close will it come to NYC?
Also, I found it interesting to see that PATH stops in the same platforms as does the NJT trains. How common is it to have differently powered trains from totally separate systems using the same platforms.
Did the Port Authority flex it's mighty muscle?:)
100% sure now that it was Secaucus Xfer.
Information can be found on the Hudson-Bergen Line @ http://osdbuweb.dot.gov/translink/jul96/hblrts.htm
The PATH and NJTransit tracks are not used interchangable. Although the platform is physically the same, this is to ease transferring between the two systems, and note that the PATH side of the platform is beyond the PATH fare control zone. But the important thing to note is that the tracks are not used interchangably at Newark. Additionally, NJTransit trains do not stop at the Harrison station just north of Newark.
And, don't forget that PATH was originally the Hudson and Manhattan Railroad and was owned by the Pennsylvania Railroad so that it would be natural to make for an easy transfer in Newark.
> Hudson and Manhattan Railroad and was owned by the
> Pennsylvania Railroad
Wrong... They had a joint trackage agreement between the portal and Newark, but the H&M was never owned by the PRR... see:
http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/rails/hudson.and.manhattan.html for further details.
-Dave
I plead guilty to faulty memory.
Penn Station NY has some tracks that also have a third rail for the LIRR (13-21).
Another trivia on PATH: There was/ still is a switch near Harrison to allow PATH trains to access the NJT/Amtrak mainline. It is because of this switch that PATH is under FRA regs.
Steve (trainmaster7)can tell us the problems going to FRA regs would cause on the subways, but for one maintenance requirements are more stringent both in scheduling and in tolerances (when replacement is needed rather than resurface/rebuild.) (Source: LIRR Hillside Maint Shop.)
[There was/is still a switch near Harrison to allow PATH trains to access the NJT/Amtrak mainline.]
Amtrak's #3 and #9 switches near Hudson Tower never allowed direct moves from PATH to the NEC.(At least not in my experience.) As operated from Hudson,both switches had to be reversed allowing movements across PATH's westbound from Conrail's Center St. branch to
the Amtrak main. Movements between Amtrak and PATH required that a signal maintainer throw the switches manually. This was usually done to bring the Sperry car on/off PATH. These switches were removed a few
years ago.
Still remaining is Amtrak's #31 switch,which connects Amtrak to Conrail's P&H branch, crossing,but not connecting,PATH's eastbound.
The crossing can be seen just east of PATH's Harrison Yard employee stop.
Whoops, sorry, I thought he said PATH's Hudson River tunnel. My mistake.
I just want to clarify which light rail projects are now under construction in New Jersey.
1. Hudson-Bergen Light Rail: Segment now underway starts about one block south of Exchange Place PATH station in Jersey City and runs south and west to Liberty Science Center. From there two branches are under construction: west to West Side Avenue in Jersey City and south to 45th Street in Bayonne. Track laying has started in some sections.
2. Newark City Subway: Construction has started on new yard and shop in Bloomfield, about half-mile west of the line's present terminal. This is near the intersection of Bloomfield Avenue and Grove Street.
A light rail extension to the Secaucus Transfer station is being considered by NJ Transit.
Here is a partial list of upcoming open competative exams for jobs with the NYC Transit:
Applications and further info. are available at:
NYC Dept. of Citywide Administrative Services
Application Section
18 Washington St.
New York, NY
Note: I assume no responsibility for errors.
Track maintainer Exam #8038 November 98
Vent & Drain Maintainer #8036 November 98
Road Car Inspector Exam #8034 December 98
Structure Maintainer Exam #8037 December 98
Bus Operator Exam #8043 January 99
Car Inspector Exam #8028 January 99
Car maintainer B Exam #5011 January 99
Light Maintainer Exam #8029 January 99
Electronic Equipment Maintainer Exam #8044 February 99
Air Brake Maintainer Exam #8055 April 99
The above dates are the posted month for filing. Most job postings are open for filing for 2-3 weeks so check with the above city agency for more info. (212) 268-2296
For those interested - good luck.
Why does Queens have all those private lines such as Green Bus,Command Bus, etc.
Were they never interested in selling out to the City or did the city deem the routes as non-worthy of service?
If the Fifth Avenue Coach Lines were bought and MABTOA formed why cant they buy the privatesd and from BAQSTOA (Brooklyn and Queens Surface Transit Operating Authority?)
I am not trying to get our friends at the private lines to lose their jobs - they'd be absorbed into BAQSTOA. Under this idea all surface would be run by the two OA (SIRTOA would get SI Bus).
the above post is just a question. I know of no such proposal and should not be taken as official MTA or NYCT plans or proposals.
Funny you should mention a Staten Island Operating Authority. It's a proposal that is being pushed by the Tri-State campaign right now.
As for the Private bus lines, most of the city-operated former privates were bought or taken over by the city so that service could be maintained/restored due to strikes, labor actions, and corporate bankruptcies. Those out in Queens, I guess, are just waiting their turn. Besides, adding all those currently private Queens bus routes to the TA fold would be like adding the operations of the entire Brooklyn division...
-=Hank
Most of the recent Mayor's, incl. dear Rudy, like the leverage that the "privates" give them in dealings with the MTA. We, also, can be good politically, i.e. votes. The NYC-DOT incl. a lot of activities that effect the public. True, this can be bad as well as good. AND, as I've said before the "privates" carry MORE folks in Queens, on buses, than the TA. Our 1,000 buses vs. the TAs 4,000 is nothing to sneeze at.
Personally, I realy like working for a man who I see every day vs. a CEO or Pres. who stays in some big fancy office somewhere.
Mr t__:^)
Lets think about the history here:
Mass transit started out private, because it was built by private companies, and it was profitable. Later, when the better off started buying cars in large numbers, transit systems were left with a situation in which the workers earned more than the customers -- who demanded a frozen fare. Not a situation for profitability. This was made worse by the large number of people who used transit twice a day to get to work, thus requiring enough capacity for rush hour, but not at other times, therefore reducing revenues. So transit companies started to go broke.
At that point, the government had two options -- subsidize the private companies or take them over. Most transit systems went broke in the 1930s, when private enterprise was in ill repute, so they were taken over. Subsidies for private companies were politically unacceptable.
Since Queens was growing at the time, however, my guess is that its privates held on a little longer. By the time they started going under, the idea of supporting transit through subusidies rather than public ownership had caught on. So they were subsidized instead.
Now there are not a few people who believe the T.A. bus divisions should be privatized. And, while privatizing the subways is probably unworkable, there are those who believe much of the work should be contracted out.
P.S. a few years ago I got 1993 NYS Dept. of Labor Data (from unemployment insurance tax records) on the annual average pay per employee in public agencies and their private equivalents. At that time, the average T.A. worker earned $43,762 -- about the same as the airline industry, and more than any other government agency. The average employee in the city's private transit industry earned $26,555. Private vans? If you think of them as being like cab drivers, the average employee in the taxi industry earned $18,276 (on the books), a living wage at the time, but not luxury. In comparison, if you exclude the high paying Wall St type industries, the average private sector worker in the city earned about $33,000.
Is the idea of privitization wage cuts, or higher productivity and greater flexibility? Well, I provide the data for your own judgement. All one can say is that at those wages (relative to the rest of us) TA employees should be stars.
[P.S. a few years ago I got 1993 NYS Dept. of Labor Data (from unemployment insurance tax records) on the annual average pay per employee in public agencies and their private equivalents. At that time, the average T.A. worker earned $43,762 -- about the same as the
airline industry, and more than any other government agency. The average employee in the city's private transit industry earned $26,555. Private vans? If you think of them as being like cab drivers, the average employee in the taxi industry earned $18,276 (on the books), a living wage at the time, but not luxury. In comparison, if you exclude the high paying Wall St type industries, the average private sector worker in the city earned about $33,000.]
Some of these comparisons might be skewed by the presence of part-time workers. As far as I know, the TA employs relatively few part-timers, which is quite different from the practice in private industry. The lack of low-paid part-timers could make the TA average appear unusually high (assuming the figures you cite aren't restricted to full-time workers).
The "private" bus companies don't use "part-time" workers. They're part of the same TWU local, with Sonney Hall as their main guy (I met him this Spring at our retirement dinner, he was looking for votes).
The TWU, at the "privates" does have a different contract, and Rudy was able to give them LESS than the TA got. Point of fact, the oweners of the "privates" had to come up with some of the cash themselves for the most recent contract ... good thing traffic went up.
Larry makes some good & valid points, about privatation, that are being talked about a lot in the industry. Some cities (sorry can't recall which ones) have even gone "private". The US DOT publishes a book about the common carriers that trys to show who's doing a better/more efficient job, but it's not easy to tell if the "privates" cost the public less then the TA. e.g. some of the cost of our operation occurs at the TA (MIS folks in Brooklyn ... Yes they charge us for some of it eveytime someone dips a MC in our farebox), DOT (admin/purch/etc. at office in Lwr Manhattan).
Do they want to know ... well I'm sure Rudy Giuliani & Virgial Conway have their opinions.
Is privatization the way to go in NYC, well here we're VERY customer oriented & have to watch our pennies very closely, e.g. remember my discussion about the paper that the TA discards & we collect, because each one is worth .75 (Sr/Disabled) or 1.50 (Block) ?
Now let me be fare, the guy who started this, Subway-Buff, is a good example of someone who I'll bet puts a lot of personal service into his job ! AND we have bus & subway operators who contribute here who seem likewise to have a good attitude about the public & their job. Would they do a better job if the TA went private, are they the exception rather then the rule ?
Well I better go and provde some of that service now.
Disclaimer: Opinions expressed here are my own.
Mr t__:^)
I'm a little skeptical about privatization, having worked in material at the T.A. If you lack the competence to hire and manage employees, what makes you think you will be able to hire an manage companies? My experience is that public agencies get scalped. Too much red tape around the purchasing managers which allows contractors to work the system (just as all those personnel rules and union contracts allow goldbricking union workers to work the system also). Public or privatized, you have the same problem.
But outside of NYC they do it for PROFIT (the "privates" here can't make any money), that changes things. The hot potato is how do you keep the service level up & make profit at the same time ?
The Guilford railroad company seems to be doing it in an area that was unprofitable for a long time. The bad news is that 2/3 of the staff was cut and a lot of service (track) too.
The point is that we, in NYC, can't afford to have the kind of mngt that Larry is talking about if it's going to work here. So how do you take the politations & status quoers out of the equation ? Is there any hope that George, Rudy & Virgil could put in place the right kind of management team ? Larry doesn't ! What would be their motovation to do it ? Now there's a good question !
Disclaimer: Opinions expressed here are my own, not the TA or DOT.
Mr t__:^)
[But outside of NYC they do it for PROFIT (the "privates" here can't make any money), that changes things. The hot potato is how do you keep the service level up & make profit at the same time?]
It would seem to me that if transit operations can turn a profit anywhere in the United States, it would be in New York, thanks to high ridership levels especially during off-peak hours. Or am I missing something?
It appears that it is possible to drive a private van and earn a living wage, living just off the farebox. If such vans were allowed, it is possible some would expand their businesses to include buses. But while a van driver might clear, say, $30,000 in wages/profits over costs, the average T.A. worker makes much more. Hence the opposition from the TWU.
Insurance is a large concern for van operators expecially in New York.
The regulation is likely to be worse in term of the ability to enfoce insurance and safety standards than for for taxi operators. Ridership of van services would likely come at the expesne of the taxi operators. Vans will run when they want to not when you need them. Transit service would be much more efficient if they did not have to run owl service and reasonable headways for extended periods of the day, but the service is needed and is operated as a public necesity. Cutting into the base ridership will cause transit to become less available for more people.
The cities kept fare very low causing dificulties in profit for tranit agencies at the same time they built roads and subsidized cars. Now we subsidize cars and tranit but thats ok. Transit is a needed public service and should be funded.
Privatization won't by itself save any money. The contractor charges a mgt. fee and pays workers lower wages maybe better work rules but the mgt fee eats any savings. The contractor does make money from the fee so it just redistributes the wealth towards the contractor not the employees.
Transit systems out of NYC do not generate the same farebox recovery ratio. In many systems in a urbanized areas that are 50,000 or less in population the fare box covers about 10% of expenses, and service, if it exixts runs headways of 20 to 60 minutes. I think the CTA is required to recover 50% (John B. is that right?) Small transit systms operate between 6:00 AM and 6:00 PM Monday through Friday and in some systems on Saturday. Needless to say the only people using transit have no other choice. In most cases there is not a cab to fall back on.
Transit operators operate some really bad hours, in all weather conditions and have extreme numbers of public contacts daily. Most are quite cordial, but some are down right hostile. The compensation accounts for early, late, splits shifts (Do you Work spits in NYC?) 365 days per year. Also remember some of the wages is in overtime, some built into the schedule but some assinged and some volunteered for. Overtime paid is also overtime earned, you need to put in the time.
Oh well so much for rambling on.
Zeek
the problem with most van service offered is that they aren't regulated by the tlc commission, they are privately owned and operated. how many times have you seen drivers and the co horts arguing about stealing riders from one another and pretty violently at times too. safety is another concern are these vehicles inspected and maintained? what driving record does the operator have? oh yes Insurance too?
The reason the private vans are not regulated is that the city refuses to allow them. What a great political solution. You satisfy the TWU by not issuing licenses to van operators, making them ALL illegal, regardless of how the operate. But you satisfy the van operators and their customers by not making an effort to put the illegal vans out of business. The only problem is, or course, that without regulations there is no insurance, no assurance of a good driving record, etc. And, since everyone who goes into the van business is a criminal, only criminals are willing to go into the van business.
You'd be surprised how much of NYC works that way. Take zoning. The rules for what type of business is allowed where make absolutely no sense -- ie a funeral home is allowed on one side of the street and not the other. Half the business types aren't even listed, and in theory aren't allowed anywhere. Ninety-nine percent of all health clubs violate the zoning. But just try to change that "we don't want those children's play centers in our neighborhood!" the cranky people who show bother to show up at the public hearing will say. So we keep everything illegal. But we don't enforce anything -- including in many cases things which SHOULD be enforced.
Who wins -- those who are willing to break the law, and big and well connected companies who can hire lawywers and consultants to get variances, exceptions, and interpretations. And who loses? Anyone who tries to follow the law, and the occasionally sad sap whose competitior, or a neighbor who has a feud, forces the city to take action against them.
[The reason the private vans are not regulated is that the city refuses to allow them. What a great political solution. You satisfy the TWU by not issuing licenses to van operators, making them ALL illegal, regardless of how the operate.]
Are you sure about that? I thought that there are indeed some licensed van operators, particularly in Queens.
(Are there legal vans?)
The state used to license the vans, and many were indeed licensed. Then it passed a law allowing the city to license the vans within the city limits. Then the city council imposed a moratorium, and refused to license any more vans -- the previously licensed companies were grandfathered. Coincidently, the moratorium was imposed when non-Whites (ie. West Indians) started going into the van business. Most of those who have grandfathered licenses are white. Most of the "illegal" vans which cannot get licenses, regardless of how they are operated, are run by non-whites.
This is why I am slow to criticise when some black person gets on Subtalk and rants and raves. But what confuses me is since black intellectuals rant and rave about "institutional racism," how come black politicians support (liberal) policies which give more power to institutions? To be fair, the policies of the City and State of New York are designed to stick it to anyone who wasn't around in 1977, and anyone who plans to be around in 2010, regardless of race. It is existing interests against fairness in the Vampire State.
[To be fair, the policies of the City and State of New York are designed to stick it to anyone who wasn't around in 1977, and anyone who plans to be around in 2010, regardless of race. It is existing interests against fairness in the Vampire State.]
That sort of favoritism toward longtime residents (and discrimination against newcomers) is not unique to New York - for the ultimate example, look at Proposition 13 in California.
In New York City's earliest days buses and trains were privately owned however fares could not rise above a limit set by the city. So profits were never that great which is why so many went default and NYC absorbed everything. No private corporation worth its spit would be able to operate in NYC and generate profit without subsides from City State and Federal and still charge a reasonable fare at the farebox. Its sounds nice to to operate public transportation and get profit but you'd end up having a local bus or subway ride in the city costing around say 5 to 7 dollars for one ride and no discount. MTA is taking the ball and running with the money it is now earning from metrocard sales especially the unlimited ones. The money pours in and they generate interest from the word go. Any loses are minimal and believe me they are laughing all the way to the bank. everyone is crying about the salaries of the people pushing tokens and opening /closing doors and driving trains and buses you should really look at the hefty salaries of the fat cats at the top. Management is really hefty and pat themselves on the back and they have no idea the reality of what the riders endures. Subway stations are filthier and smell putrid, Subway cars too are no prize either but they let go plenty of cleaners and higher more consultants and management. Remember the ad compaign to boycott Citibank for laying off union cleaners and hiring non union and minimum wage workers as replacements I don't see TWU doing the same for us ..
lets just say that if privitization were to occur hear in NYC we'd all be earning zilch just like all the major corporations do to make a profit hire minimum wage and no benefits. I guess as a tax base our salaries don't help the landlords or the cit/state/federal the local grocery stores or major stores, much less pay interest to banks to mortgages and credit debt. lets see minimum wage and no benefits less discretionary(high school education spelling oops!) correct me pleasee!) hmm what are the rents around the city these days... cant afford the utilites or phone. can't take the kids to the movies or ball games (oh I forgot no health benefits so we cant afford those children Marge!)
BUT, that doesn't mean that we should roll over and go to sleep on this issue. All those fat cats on the top and all those TA buildings full of people doing heaven knows what. Maybe privatizing transit isn't the answer, but lots more dollars could be gotten out of the operation and put into more buses & trains. Case in point (for the guy who started this) I don't agree with the TA plan to let the Token Booth Agent out of the booth, because that's not what there up to. Since they won't hire any more agents, guess how many will be around in a few years. Same thing is there plan at the bridges, they don't want to count money, so the guy in the booth & those in the back room are on there way out. It's then dam little guy that there after again. Final point why are they taking the conductor off the trains, that's right the little guy again.
Mr t__:^)
For the record, line personnel earn more at the T.A. than in private industry. And management personnel earn less at the T.A. in private industry. That's true in any government agency, relative to the private sector.
In private industry, those at the top earn many, many times more than those at the bottom. People don't like that, but they can't do anything about it. But at government pay reflects people's values. Just try to find a private sector CEO or business owner of a compay with more than 50 workers who earns less than Larry Reuter. Or President Clinton. Or Mayor Giuliani. Moreover, the T.A. is less top-heavy than most of the city agencies I work with. Having the MTA on top of it is another matter.
As a result, government agencies have difficulty attracting decent quality workers for any managerial or professional position (that's why the city ended up brining in teachers from Austria). It is fair to say that the problem is that the private sector pays those at the top too much, rather than the public sector paying those at the top too little. But it is not fair to say those at the top in the public sector are paid too much. Heck, I'd bet half the line personnel at the T.A. earn more than I do, after 12 years experience and with a grad degree. The AVERAGE private sector worker in Manhattan earns more than I do.
OK, OK, point well taken, but for the record this pay disparity doesn't exist at the "private" bus companies. They do OK but none of them make Larry Reuter's bucks (I don't know for sure, just have that feeling, so if someone knows that facts , please feel free to enlight me).
Back to my beef, what about all those folks in all those TA buildings ... what are they doing, besides watching screen savers in their plush cubicles. What's the ratio of staff to operations at the TA + MTA vs. other cities. I saw a book published by the US DOT once, so I know the numbers exist somewhere. Some of the data in that book is a game of mirrors, i.e. Maint. only counts the folks in the Depots, but excludes the Ctr Elect. Shop at Woodside & all the other folks that plan/buy/hire for the Depots elsewhere vs. a company like mine where everyone is counted because we're all in one place. Now to be fair they still leave out the DOT & TA folks that provide some support, so even the number for us is wrong in the pure since.
My point is that in the corporate world they would count EVERYONE to see the read cost, then reorganize/cut-slash to max the profits & make the stock holders happy. (I used to work for Pan AM & lived through a lot of cutting & slashing until '82 when they got me)
Mr t__:^)
WE ARE STARS! WE MOVE MILLIONS OF PEOPLE A DAY IN A SAFE A TIMELY MANNER, WHY THE SUDDEN CONSCIENCE OF SALARY WHEN SO MANY TRANSIT WORKERS ARE MINORITIES, WOMEN AND IMMIGRANTS? NO NEED TO WORRY HOWEVER, MANY FOLKS WHO TEN YEARS AGO WOULDN'T THINK ABOUT WORKING IN TRANSIT INDUSTRIES ARE REALIZING THAT THE SALARY, JOB PICKS AND FRINGES ARE ALL RIGHT COMPARED TO PRIVATE INDUSTRY JOBS THAT PAY YOU 40 HOURS FOR A 90 OUR WEEK, AND THATS WITH A BACHELORS DEGREE!
You said A mouthful and I think you make an excellent point I was wondering the same thing no one bitches about the corporate swine ripping off America with their enormous salaries and benefits not to mention Wall st and their thieves earning some hefty salaries and carrying that money off to the suburbs and out of state.
Funny you should mention minorities and immigrants. If you stack up city agencies by average pay (using unemployment insurance records from the state department of labor), those for which the employees are allowed to live outside the city are at the top (Police, Fire, Sanitation) and those for which the employees are required to stay in the city are at the bottom. There is one exception -- the T.A., with high average salaries and workers who are required to live in the city. No wonder it is the one opportunity for minorities and immigrants to get a high wage government job.
Funny thing about the T.A., however. I used 1990 census of population data to find out where workers in publicly owned transit companies in NYC (there is only one, and I think we know who it is) lived. I found that 16.3 percent of T.A. employees lived outside the city. And they earned 18.5 percent of the payroll (the comparable figure is one-third for cops and firemen). How can that be? When I worked for the T.A. I had to sign something saying I would promise to stay in the city. I guess it isn't just the Wall Streeters carrying the money (also about one-third) out the suburbs, Mr. Pardi.
P.S. the census bureau was able to tabulate 32,000 transit workers in 1990. I know there were more. Those of you who get the "long form" in 2000 (if there is a census), be sure and fill it out so we can analyze you -- and so we get our share of the federal money.
Doesn't the cencus favor the rural areas because they are able to get much more accurate counts, sending representation and $$$'s away from the cities and out the the farm?
Yes, and that's a big issue. The census bureau wanted to estimate the number of people who are missing by making a big effort to find a sample of them, but the Republicans are blocking it. They say the constitution requires an actual count, not an estimate. Fine, I say -- until 1970 they sent actual people to every house, often more than once, without mail-in forms. If you want a complete count, do that again.
But the census is just an excuse to suck money out of the city. We have a 100 percent count of the public school children, and the city accounts for 37 percent of the state. So does the city get 37 percent of the school aid? Guess again.
Don't envy rural areas. The coming recession is being driven by goods over-supply, including agricultural goods, and falling prices and exports. Its going to hit rural areas, and industrial areas, real hard. It will be like the early 1980s, when Chicago lost 15 percent of its jobs in a couple of years, and the mid-1980s, when all those farms when broke and they made all those rural movies. It will not be like the early 1990s, recession, which was driven by information technology wiping out jobs in information-intensive industries and defense cutbacks. That recession hit the Northeast and California, this one won't (we'll lose something, but not much). You heard it here first.
After demanding government cutbacks when we were in need, how much you want to be that those Republicans will be in an "we're all in it together" mood when we have the money and they have the need?
Can the elephant hold a tin cup with his trunk?
I think at one time or another NYC residence was a requirement for transit authority employment. Whether this is still a requirement I do not know, if it is who is responsible other than notify of change of address within 7 days of the change.
Transit Authority is an exempt agency from residence requirement in NYC.
unless I hit the lotto i'll continue to live in the boros
I am sure that the TA pays well, and for arguments sake we'll say the TA does a good job of moving millions of people in NYC. But you can't forget that you are living off of the tax base. The attitude and work habits of most TA workers leaves a lot to be desired. Union work rules make labor very ineffecient and thus expensive. You can complain about 'Wall Street' salaries, but remember that is a private industry and you don't have to patronize a business that you have issues with. If you have money in the market, you can move it to any firm of your choice. Get used to the fact that most high-paid workers live in the suburbs. That is a fact, succesful people usually don't want to live in the boroughs any more. But the TA is a tax-funded monopoly that we all pay for whether we like it or not. Things are good right now in NYC but the real economic growth in America is taking place in the south and west. Think about it.
Also, using Wall St. firms as an example.. high paid traders and trading managers are not the majority of employees at such firms. For instance at Merrill Lynch, their NYC office employs around 10,000 people, most of whom aren't making the 250K+ salaries that are being objected to. Those 10,000 people, while some might live in the suburbs, some might even live in New Jersey, all of them pay New York City and State income tax. They patronize New York businesses, stores, restaurants, and pay New York sales tax on purchases. It is these taxes that fund the MTA. The presense of "suburban" commuter employees in New York City does not place an unfair burden on borough residents. The borough residents are not the only ones paying into the MTA. The higher paid workers may live in the 'burbs but they pay taxes too... it seems to me that where they live is really irrelevant to the argument.
[The presense of "suburban" commuter employees in New York City does not place an unfair burden on borough residents. The borough residents are not the only ones
paying into the MTA. The higher paid workers may live in the 'burbs but they pay taxes too... it seems to me that where they live is really irrelevant to the argument.]
It's not just that the suburban commuters pay city taxes - they also place fewer demands on city services, most notably the schools. In that sense the city benefits from the presence of commuters.
Just a couple of points: commuters pay a very small "commuter tax", not the full NYC income tax, unless they are self-employed in which case they pay both the commuter tax and the unincorporated business tax (self-employed city residents are taxed twice at a high rate).
Increasingly, everyone in finance is making $250 K. All those floor brokers, clerks, and secretaries are being eliminated by computers and telecommunications. That's why the number of people working in NYC's commercial banking industry fell from 120,000 in 1987 to around 60,000 today -- even as the payroll soared. I'd say technology has eliminated about a half million "pink collar" office jobs in this city in the past 20 years. The internet will eliminate some more. In fact, the whole New York Stock exchange trading floor (about 5,000 mid-paid jobs) may disappear in ten years. Brokers and traders making $250K+ will just deal with each other via computer.
Fortunately, technology is also creating jobs in other areas. That's why we're almost back where we were in 1989 in terms of private employment.
I have only one point to make here relative to your comment about the high cost of labor at the TA: The TWU & IAM aren't a TA thing, they're eveywhere in the transportation industry, along with the Teamsters, and a few others. Corp. seem more willing to fight them, e.g. the railroads, airlines, truckers (UPS/Rider). So don't blame the work rules & other ineffecienties on labor. Their leadership asks for things & fights battles based on what the members want, if mngt gives it to them, that's not the TWU's fault. The TWU has a odd organization, i.e. the local leaders keep changing based on the rank & file whim. Other TWU/Teamsters locals keep the leadership in place, that changes how they act. I remember a Temster contract at Pan AM, it was great because mngt didn't want a strike for any reason at that time.
Mr t__:^)
Line work in the transportation industry is a skilled an important job, often with lives at stake, so high pay is a market outcome as well as a measure of union power. My one point is that since the T.A. is about the highest paid job a non-college grad can get in this city, it ought to recruit the absolute cream of the crop. Better to raise productivity and dedication than to cut pay, and I think that's what they have tried to do over the years. As long as we get stars, they're worth the bucks.
[The TWU & IAM aren't a TA thing, they're eveywhere in the transportation industry,
along with the Teamsters, and a few others. Corp. seem more willing to fight them, e.g. the railroads, airlines, truckers (UPS/Rider) ... I remember a Temster contract at Pan
AM, it was great because mngt didn't want a strike for any reason at that time.]
Exactly the point. Many other industries (in and out of transportation) deal with unions. While it's true that union membership number are well off their peak, they are still in the tens of millions.
What *is* different about TA labor relations is that management has decided that strikes simply cannot be allowed to occur regardless of the circumstances. In contrast, most private businesses - while hardly overjoyed at the idea of strikes - are willing to tolerate them if there's no reasonable alternative. It is this difference which accounts for much of the perceived union strength at the TA.
There's another point. Most private-sector transportation companies (airlines, freight railroads, trucking companies, Federal Express, UPS, etc. etc.) manage to make tidy profits despite having union labor. This leads one to believe that there is something inherent in urban public transportation *other* than unon labor costs that account for its inability to make money. One obvious factor is the "social service" function which obliges the TA and its counterparts elsewhere to provide service at times and/or routes where ridership is low but the service is essential to some people. Also consider the fact that demand for urban transit is highly skewed - big peaks during rush hour, much lower at other times. This makes it difficult to allocate resources in a cst-effective way.
The only point that i'll add to Peter's thoughtful remarks is:
It seems that the Mayor (Rudy & his predecessors) have been able to do a better job of controlling cost than the TA, i.e. the TWU at the "privates" don't have parity with their brothers at the TA. Now maybe this is because Rudy can put the fear of God into the owners of the "privates", while top TA mngt will just go somewhere else in the industry if things don't work out AND probally get more money because of the experience that he's gained here.
Mr t__:^)
It seems to me that the productivity gains at the TA have more than justified any wage increases they have gotten recently. The current union leadership thinks it is in their interest to do a good job, whereas in the past the goal has been to suck out as much as possible. Twenty years ago, it was common for transit workers to be drunk on the job. Nothing like that goes on today.
That said, there is something about the private sector vs. the public. My wife's grandfather was a painter at the T.A. Everyone worked their butts off at the IRT and BMT, but soon after the city took over everyone started goldbricking, or so he said, and lots of the work just didn't get done. Then in '65, when all the old IRT and BMT people retired (thanks to super-generous pensions) the place went to hell. Again, that was his view. If you believe this, much of the decline and subsequent recovery at the TA can be attributed to worker attitudes and nothing more.
Why should the MTA spread its blanket over all of five boroughs? If the privates are doing a decent job, or at least as good as the TA would do, and the private owners are are happy, why change it?
Remember the old saying, "Don't fix what isn't broken."
The Queens bus network today is a vestige of the LaGuardia administration's efforts in the 1930's to create a group of strong private bus companies organized on a borough oriented basis. Prior the mid 1930's, bus operations outside of Manhattan were a hodgepodge of small operators that had sprung up without any comprehensive planning. The major surface transit providers were streetcar operators.
In Queens, four zones were established - A (Northwest), B(Northeast), C (Southwest/Rockaways), and D (Southeast). Zones B and D were franchised to North Shore Bus, C to Green Bus, and A to Triboro Coach. Queens Transit, Steinway Transit, and Jamaica Buses also received franchises to succeed previous streetcar operators. Fifth Avenue Coach and BMT also operated routes in Queens.
North Shore Bus went out of business in 1947 and its routes became today's NYCTA Queens Bus Division. The remaining privates, with some changes, still operate today. Triboro and Jamaica are under Green Bus ownership since the late 1940's.
Andy, Nice background info. Eye didn't know all of that. Eye like knowing a little history about the company I work for, thanks !
P.S. I think Queens Transit actually was in the Trolley business, and the Queensborough Bridge Trolley, though the latter may have been part of Steinway after it bacame a bus route first ... maybe U could correct me.
Mr t__:^)
Queens Transit (as opposed to Streinway) was originally NY & Queens County Railway - the Q65 and Q66 routes, to the best of my knowledge, were originally trolleys till a mid-1930's bus conversion. The trolley route that preceded the Q65 had a private right of way that was later incorporated into a widened 164th Street.
Steinway Transit's routes (Q101, 102, 103, and 104) were all originally trolley routes, as well as the Queensboro Bridge line that stopped in the middle of the bridge for the elevator connection to the old Welfare Island. All but the bridge trolley line were converted to bus by 1939. The Salzberg family acquired ownership of both companies about that time as well. Steinway continued to operate the Queensboro Bridge trolley till April 1957, when it finally stopped - the last trolley to ever operate in New York City.
Thanks to you Andy I now know a lot more about this company. The only item i'll add is there's remant of the trolley company (a couple of towers) on Broadway and 50 something, at the street side of a small mall (I think you can buy Pizza inside). It's just down the street from the TA's Central Elect. Shop in Woodside, at 54th St., BUT I thought it was Nassau & Queens Trolley ?
P.S. The Q66 turns south off Northern just before this site, but the Q104 goes right by it.
Mr t__:^)
Andy, I had a excuse to visit the TA Ctr Elect Shop today, so went by the towers that are at the corner of Woodside & Northern. The anchor store in the "Town Square" mall is Off Max, and there's a Pizza Hut in the old "Waiting Room". The relief on the outside says "NY & Queens Railway Co.", also up high is a stylized NS, Nassau Surface ?
So stop by for a slice & remember when you could wait for a trolley there, and instead catch the Q18, Q66, or the R/G just two blocks away.
Mr t__:^)
not too long ago MTA trying pawning off MABSTOA to Liberty Lines and New York Bus service they weren't biting a smart move on their part. As it would be a big financial drain on them to offer local service an addition to express services. you see MTA would still have to offer an incentive(subsidies) for loses incurred so they would still be paying for something they do not own or operate.
lets see if your private bus company shuts its doors tomm. and you have to get to work someday would'nt be nice if MTA takes it over for you convenience? usually if a strike of financial crisis arise this would happen to keep voters happy presently DOT subsidized private lines in Queens Brooklyn and Staten Island aren't near collapse so the privates lines are doing well thank you. If private lines started springing up and had different fare structures and things, wouldn't that make commuting in the city just fun! oh and the subway too!!! i'm just giddy with that one one fare for the lexington ave line another for say the grand central shuttle and another for the seventh ave or 8th sve if they were independently owned by seperate compnanies well this is what NYC was when private companies owned the IRT BMT(former BRT) and the bus lines.
I think the "privates" keep the TA honest. Rudy has been quick to offer Queens folks a little extra, remember the $1.00 off-peek fares. He also loves to irritate the MTA/TA. That's good for NYC. Afterall who is Virgial Conway accountable to, not you & me.
I would like to see Rudy let us run VANS on those routes that don't need the 40 footers during the day, hay LI Bus does it why not us ... it would cost less (LI Bus has it's junior drivers run the little buses). And late at night when the SENIOR guys went home, let the junior guys drive the little buses, hay you don't need a 40 footer for two or three folks. This would result in MORE guys & gales employeed & better/more frequent service ... that would be a good thing right ?
Disclaimer: Opinions expressed here are my own.
Mr t__:^)
I forgot one major thing Metrocard while under the MTA umbrella is its own entity and at the drop of a pin i'm sure can be sold off to private management. True while the TA developed the idea with Cubic it is operated with cooperation with current other subway depts. I read in an old metrocard pamphlet somewhere in the fine print that said while MTA metrocard in its current form could always change hands with some other agency it could always go off and become privately owned/managed/operated? its possible...
well gee who would we bitch and moan to when its owned by private sector? and would they give a damn since that would be the only fare medium then? hey no tokens would exist clerks would no be around only vending machines and large gated entrances to slide your card through. ITS COMING TO A STATION NEAR U!
The MetroCard operation used to be in a separate group, they did such a splendid job the TA took it back.
Mr t__:^)
I saw the Mimic last saturday and I wondered if such disused stations and tunnels really existed?
How is the situation now in the New York subway is there really a lot of crime and litter on the system?
Keep me updated, I'm really interested in New Yorks subways.
greetings from Holland
Jarno Stet
There are many abandoned subway and el station in NYC-some notable ones include:
42nd St.-lower level-8th Ave.
City Hall-IRT
18th St-Lexington IRT
City Hall-lower level-BMT
9th Ave(Brooklyn)-BMT
Probably the most famous abandoned tunnel is a short stretch under Canal St. connectin g the express tracks under Broadway to the Manhattan Bridge. This site has an excellent page on all these abandoned areas.
NYC has several abandoned stations, but noit as extensive a network as is often portrayed in the movies. The movie studios seem to be about 10-15 years behind what the NYC subway is really like. No more graffitti-coated cars, no more half-dark platforms, and definately less crime and grime. In any case, the point is moot. The subway scenes in Mimic were filmed in Toronto, Canada. (which I also doubt is ever portrayed realistically)
-Hank
On my recent visit to the Big Apple, what I saw agrees with Hank's assessment. Curiously, however, there seems to be a big increase in graffiti in the tunnels. Some stretches had walls completely covered between stations. This does not appear to be art graffiti, but gang-related. Is this the new gang turf?
I don't think the tunnel graffitti is all recent. I don't think they paint the tunnel walls, except in station areas. For sure they havn't botheed to clrean the walls at 91st and B'way...
-Hank
Ditto for Worth Street and 18th Street-Park Avenue South!
You also see alot of this huge graffitti covering the wall in unused stretches of track, such as Broadway exp.
What a pleasant thing it is to have people from around the world contribute to this Web site, thanks Dave !
Mr (small) t here in Queens NY USA :^)
Have you gone to this site's disused and abandoned station page?
There are a number dis-used stations in the system. They seem to attract vandals and homeless and some have become eye-sores. The litter problem on the system, in general, is a significant one but one which has gotten better in the last year or two. The vacuum train and the recent hiring of many car and station cleaners, have made a big difference. As for crime, it's way down. I could quote statistics but they don't mean much if you become a victim. I spent most of the early morning hours (2 AM - 5 AM) riding the system last night and felt safe.
I have compiled a SHORT list for those who like to get as close as permitted to some Philly transit spots:
Victory Blvd-roadway behind 69th St. terminal, where one has a full view of the 69th St. yard, areas for the 100, 101 and 102 and the bus barn.
32nd and Arch-great view of the 30th St. yard for SEPTA(for AMTRAK, would you risk the "sidewalk" along the Schuykill Expressway?
2nd and Race-right where Race St. turns onto either Delaware Avenue or I-95. Great view of the El entering and exiting the portal and a little walk along Race St. eastward gets you to a driveway leading to the portal and a walk westward on Florist St.(one block north next to the tall "NBC10" sign) and you see the portal where the PATCO trains enter the subway.
And for those in that area, go to 4th and Chestnut, slightly(as in feet) south of Chesnut to see an old trolley track just peeking up through the asphalt.
I have to add the walkway over the Bridge to Camden. It starts out below grade level of the bridge and rises above grade level. You can see the opposite PATCO track. (The walkways are on each outside of the bridge over the tracks. Only one walkway is open. As of this writing, it is the Walkway on the Camden Bound side (east side?) and you can see the Philly bound PATCO track
The walkway is on the side coming into Philadelphia. I have to do that again sometime.
Don't forget the concourse under Market St at 8th, 11th and 13th St stations, where you can see the El trains coming and going without paying. The same holds for the courtyard at 15th and Market, but the view isn't as good, although the westbound subway-surface cars can also been seen (above their windows) here.
A good spot I've always found is the 40th St portal of the subway-surface cars, where activity is always high and photo angles are quite good, without interference from traffic.
Only problem with 8th, 11th and 13th(the latter two in particular) is the rank stench of urine.
Another good spot is JFK Blvd between 20th Street
and the Schulykill River (just before 30th St
Station). You can get very good views of the SEPTA
commuter trains -- with frequent trains passing
since all lines operate there. At 20th St is the
portal from the underground Center City section,
with the tracks slowly rising just to the north
alongside JFK Blvd as they continue to the west.
I posted earlier this year that it was more than easy for anyone to just walk down the embankment and onto the tracks(and further down the bridge to get way too close to the overhead wires!). Well the SEPTA people must've read it because they have begun making the embankment a sheer dirt wall.
Way to go, SEPTA. That'll stop those darn teenagers!:)
Another good spot is JFK Blvd between 20th Street
and the Schulykill River (just before 30th St
Station). You can get very good views of the SEPTA
commuter trains -- with frequent trains passing
since all lines operate there. At 20th St. is the
portal from the underground Center City section,
with the tracks slowly rising just to the north
alongside JFK Blvd as they continue to the west.
I would like to have info where to find the Layups for the subway system and mor info n photos from the yards.
/thanks
I'll give you one, and am sure others will follow:
IND system in Queens, i.e. E/F/G/R ... Take the Whitestone Expressway south from Whitestone bridge, or Cross Island Parkway, or from Flushing go to Linden Place & go south. Anyhow the road splits about there. Just after you pass the old World's Fair park is the IND yard. You can probally park off the expressway for a while & take some photos thru the fence. As you go up over the Van Wyke you'll get a nice look into the yard, but there's no place to stop. The employee access road ends at a gate, with a guard, and you can't see anything there.
Mr t__:^)
Thurston, are you the train operator who continually harps on the fact that the area around the R-46 vision glass should be painted black?
Nope, I only operate trains in my minds eye, i.e. I'm a white collor at a bus depot, but not a "suit".
For an excellent close-up view of the subway's biggest yard, take the N train to its terminal at Stillwell Avenue in Brooklyn. The final strech goes right through Coney Island yard.
Peter is right & for another view of it take the Belt Parkway, toward the city. Have someone else drive, you'll pass right over the yard. Pick a time other than rush hours so you can savor the view.
Mr t__:^)
Good work, fellas. For those of us outside the system at the moment, would it be possible to gather all of this info on viewing sites into a section on this website? I find myself printing this material and shuffling loose papers all the time.
Oops, I've started a new project. If I can help organize, let me know.
The view of the Coney Island yard from the N train is OK. It'll be very quick though. With the recently built car wash facility, the view isn't as great as it once was. You'll also have to be quick with the camera. Make sure you're taking a Coney-Island bound N train to get the best shots.
Other vantage points for Coney Island Yard:
- Depending on how good your camera is, some good shots can be hard from the north side of the Neptune Ave "F" platform.
- Under the Belt Pkwy is a road that used to be the temporary roadway of the Belt Pkwy when the viaduct over Coney Island creek and the yard was being rebuilt. It leads to an enployee entrance. However, it runs parallel to the southern point of the yard, and lots of R-46s are usually laid up there. Also, you can get up close and personal with the loop tracks in the yard, and you can usually see a good sample of other equipment. The only thing is, you'll be shooting pix through a fence. You could have someone drive you on the Belt Pkwy west, but hope for a traffic jam if you want to take good pictures.
- Use the Coney Island bound Ave X platform, front end, to take pictures of equipment destined for the scrap heap. You should also be able to photograph R-30s 8289/8290 (I think it's 8290) currently serving as school cars.
- You could walk down Shell Road, but your viewwill be mostly obstructed by shop buildings and Gil Hodges little-league fields.
Now, how about others ...
- To photograph layups in th East New York yard, go to Broadway Junction / Easy New York (A,C,L,J,Z) and take your photographs from the L platform, north end.
- To photograph layups at E 180th St, take a 2 or 5 train to E 180th ST and you'll be right next to the yard. There's a pedestrian bridge over the tracks that oughtta halp you shoot above the fence. You can't see too much of the north end of the yard without riding the 5 train one stop to Morris Park (Dyre branch), or unless you're brave enough to walk on the Nronx River Pkwy overpass that goes right over the yard. It may be illegal to walk there however.
- 36th ST MOW yard. Take a B train to 9th Ave. From 36th St, LOTS of good shots of equipment in this yard can be had. Also, you can see where the Culver Line used to enter the lower level of 9 Av / 39th St station.
- The southern part of 207th St Yard can be seen from the 207th ST stop of the #1 train, uptown platform. Part of 238th ST yard can be seen from the Van Cortlandt Park station of the #1 line.
- Shots of the Concourse Yard can be had from the streets that surround it, and from (I think) Bedford Park Blvd downtown #4 platform.
- Part of Fresh Pond Road yard can be seen from the front of a Metropolitan Ave bound M train.
- Layups at Rockaway Park / Beach 115th ST (Rush hour A, S) are right opposite the platform, if you want to travel all the way out to Rockaway.
I think this should keep you busy for a while! :)
--Mark
There's also good viewing from the pedestrian overpass at the Willett's Point/Shea Stadium Station, which goes over the Corona Yard.
Great post !
I too have started making paper copies of ones like this, tks Mark !
Mr t__:^)
Thank You Mark!!!
I have been to some of these areas(I actually stumbled across the Ave X station while on my own personal Culver Line fantrip), but it's great to have a list in hand!
Jeremy
At the end of the "L" line in Brooklyn there is a little yard which
is usually full of shiny silver R42, R40M and Slant R40s.
It's next to the Rockaway Parkway station.
Wayne
Take the Belt Parkway you have a better view, have someone else drive and do it during rushhour, this way you can admire the view for a long period of time.
It is much better in a van. In a car, it can be hard to see over the concrete barrier of the roadway
Hey, Thurston!
Did you by any chance attend Winthrop Junior High School in Brooklyn between 1962 and 1964? That isn't a very common first name, and I remember a guy by that name in my Gym class. He was famous for winning the Excuse of the Year Award for his famous Gym class excuse:
"I didn't bring my sneakers because my mother is sick!"
Bob Sklar
Nope, I'm a Swamp Yankee from CT & we even owned some swamp !
My wife on the other hand is what I call a cliff dweller, born & brought up in the cliffs of Brooklyn. It was hard for her to adjust to a house that had grass all the way around it :-o
Mr t__:^)
In 1993, the TA was testing Cubic fareboxes that had a swipe reader on them. This was on the Bx55.in addition, it also had the mechanical acceptor which would only dispense transfers. In order to pay the fare, you would swipe the card through the reader. What ever happened to these units?
Mitch & Hank + Subway-buff, et. al.,
Eye arrived in '94 & since Hank's post I've asked if anyone here remembered about a "GFI" test in Brooklyn, our MIS guy did.
Now as for the "Cubic" test in the Bronx ... it was probally one of the off the shelf boxes that were in use elsewhere. e.g. I got a sales document in '96 (during my nosy period) that talks about their "Model 1030" which had existed in some form since the "early 80's". One comment of interest is "A magnetic card processor with read/write or read only SWIPE capability ..." I think this box is still in use in Houston (anybody there got your ears on ?), Miami has/had Cubic, but w/out card reader.
P.S. GFI makes a dip as well as a swipe card module.
We, "privates" had the swipe, CTtransit has the dip now.
Thanks to all for your input, i'm still a bit nosy B-o)
Mr t__:^)
How are things comng along on the 63 street tunnel and when will it be completed? When connectioon is made, will the B train or Q train run down the Queens Blvd line? Does anybody know if the TA will finish Merrit Blvd line because the TA would make alot of money there? Maybe run something like the E,J,Q,and Z trains down Merrit Blvd. Third of all what's going on with the second ave. line? Why was that that project stoped? I came across something on here about the second ave. line going to the bronx. It read that the line would go up Boston road in the Bronx. i think that would be GREAT. But question is will I ever ive to see it lol. Another thing about the super-express F train that would have to be a 6 track main line for that.
I can only surmise the answer to one question - the "Q" would probably
go to Queens, and then only during the rush hour - the "B" is
occupied along Central Park West/Grand Concourse during that time.
Is that Merrick Boulevard (Queens) you are referring to- never heard
of plans for a line along that road, only plan for SE Queens was
abandoned - using the LIRR line that goes to Locust Manor/Laurelton.
63rd St. Connection scheduled for completion in 2001.
2nd Avenue Subway essentially dead in the water, although there's been
some talk of reviving the part above 63rd Street. But talk is all
that it is.
"Next Big Thing" involves connection LIRR to the East Side/GCT -
they plan to finish that by 2012, so they say.
Wayne
To Wayne Whitehorne:
Yes, I was talking about the Merrick Blvd line and would the Q train end at Queens Plaza or would it go down the line like to 179 or Jamaica Center? What do you think about the Merrick Blvd line and do u think it will ever happen? Do you think the TA will add two lines to Queens Blvd line to have a super-express?
There ONCE was a plan afoot to create a super-express bypass for the
Queens Boulevard line, using the LIRR tracks from roughly Queens
Plaza to just before Continental Avenue. Like the 2nd Avenue subway,
that plan also came to naught. As for Merrick Boulevard, I have
heard nothing recent regarding any plans for this - the only thing
I found was in JoeKorner archives (http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor)
regarding the ORIGINAL (1930s) plans for IND system II. This
ambitious plan had all kinds of IND lines running all over Queens.
I've even heard of "proposals" extending the "A" line east from
Lefferts Blvd...
There IS a provision in the Archer Avenue Subway (upper level, "E"
tracks) for some kind of extension. Next time you're there, go to
the east end of the station and look down the tracks - you will see
a fairly sharp curve to the south. This was to have connected with
the LIRR tracks. Merrick Blvd is still several blocks to the east.
If I hear anything more about this, I'll pass it on - SE Queens
sure could use a subway line. In fact, so could MOST of eastern
Queens.
Wayne
To Wayne :
The extention of the Lefferts Blvd. line sounds good too. Do you think that will ever happen and that tunnel past Jamaica Center is what I was talking about? I've been there a couple of times and asked around. One of those days that i ask around i got the Merrick Blvd. stuff i got too check that out again. Thanks for the info. Wayne.
The IND Second System plans included a six-mile extension of the Liberty Ave. beyond Lefferts Blvd. all the way to Springfield Blvd.
Given the IND's penchant for overbuilding, I sometimes wonder why the Queens line wasn't originally built with six tracks. Queens Blvd. is certainly wide enough to accommodate six tracks; building that line back in the 30s was a piece of cake. It would have been interesting to have Hoyt-Schermerhorn-style, DeKalb-style and 135th St.-style stations along that line. In order to add two tracks now, they'd have to bore them beneath the existing line in much the same manner as the 6th Ave. express tracks. It's a good idea, though. They could even extend those tracks past 179th St. At the very least, you could have stops at, say, Continental Ave. and Queens Plaza only. Probably won't happen, though.
As for which routes will be routed via 63rs St., I would say the Q most likely, at the same time returning to Broadway, along with a new V route along 6th Ave.
I see what you are saying about Spingfield Blvd. Steve B. That's like a dream. The TA doesn't do what it should to make things easy for the riders. Steve. B do u think it would be hard for the TA to build two lines under Queens Blvd. ? Have you ever heard anything about the Merrick Blvd. extention of Jamaica Center line and as far as the Q? Do you think it will run to Jamaica center or 179? What do u think?
If they were to add two more tracks to the Queens line, deep bore would probably be the way to go. Supposedly, there is a plan to run LIRR trains into a yet-to-be-built midtown terminal via the lower level of the 63rd St. tunnel. Otherwise, those two additional tracks could use that level.
As for Jamaica Center and the Archer Ave. line, one level - the E, I believe - was supposed to run out to Rosedale using LIRR ROW; the other would have gone to Hollis.
From what I have heard, the Q would run only to Continental Ave as a weekday-only service as it is now. There is nothing official yet.
LIRR will be using 63rd street as part of their east side access into GCT. According to MTA there will be increased service using the lower part of tunnel. In 10 to 12 years we could see an super E or F train.
When I read the original poster mention running E,J,Q and Z trains on the same line, I was remembering that R44/46's weren't used on BMT's Eastern Division lines(J/M/Z/L). Why, if both the IND and BMT have the same specs, didn't the IND use R-40M's?(For my purposes, the A/C/E/H/G and not all that 6th Ave. route stuff). I know that the B/D/F/Q had the original slanted R-40's but not the "better-looking"(;)) ones.
The slant R-40s were originally assigned to the E and F lines. Over the years, these two routes have always seemed to get the newest and greatest (?) equipment due to political clout courtesy of the borough president of Queens. During the late 70s, the slants ran on the A line, and later the AA and B routes. I'm not sure about the R-40Ms, although chances are they did run on the E and, possibly, the HH (while carrying S signs, since they didn't have HH signs).
P. S. The R-44s, R-46s, and R-68s cannot run on the Eastern Division lines because of some very sharp curves on the Canarsie line, as well as the S curve on the Jamaica line.
R40Ms ran on the "E", "EE", "F" and "GG". Some were previewed in
odd spots like the "LL" but all wound up in Queens Blvd. service.
I do believe the R40Ms were transferred next to the "D" line before
going on to the Eastern Division. There's a photo in the R40 section
of the Car Roster Page showing 44something on the "D".
("D" and "K" (8th Avenue version) were just about exclusively R40M/
R42 up until the R68s arrived).
Wayne
FYI - How to spot an R40M in a train of R42s:
1) The corrugations on the car sides are finer. Same as Slant R40.
2) The unit numbers: 4450 thru 4549.
3) No grab handles between the "B" (blind) ends (R42s have 'em)
4) Slightly smaller and higher front window at "A" ends than R42
5) Elongated window at "B" ends, same as Slant R40.
That's right - the R-40Ms have the same corrugations at the belt rail as do the slants. Unfortunately, I never paid any attention to any of that way back then, so I can't say for sure that I've ridden the R-40Ms. On the other hand, if those were R-40Ms on the Canarsie in late 1969, then I have ridden them.
Steve what do u think about the Lefferts Blvd. A connecting to the Merrick Blvd line? Maybe have something like E,A,J,Q,Z trains down Merrick Blvd. and the R40M did run on the E and F lines.
Today while riding the A train there was a large poster in the car advertising for the guggenheim motor cycle exhibit. Does anyone know who I might write to to ask for a used poster. The MTA must throw old ones away, right?
-Michael
Today while riding the A train there was a large poster in the car advertising for the guggenheim motor cycle exhibit. Does anyone know who I might write to to ask
for a used poster. The MTA must throw old ones away, right?
-Michael
I saw a new commerical for Maxwell House Coffee on TV here in Boston last evening. It was on the CBS affiliate, though I don't know if it was a national ad (seen nationwide) or local ad (seen just here in Boston).
The ad contained fleeting glimpses of scenes in both NYC and San Francisco. One of those was of a speeding subway train over a bridge. I wasn't paying too much attention, though when I glanced up and saw it, I was pretty sure it was a Slant-40. It was moving very fast, and kind of blurry, but I got the impression it may have had blue doors. Did the Slants have blue doors like the R-32/Brightliners when new?
The subway scene is about midway through the commercial, so if you see it come on, pay attention!
I'm not sure about blue doors but I can recall darker grey doors. Maybe it was dirty but they were distinct in color as compared to the bodies. I've also seen pictures of slant-40's with blue lower body panels, like on the R-40M and R-42.
> Did the Slants have blue doors like the R-32/Brightliners when new?
Yes. So did the R-40Ms and the R-42s, as delivered.
--Mark
With all due respect, I beg to differ...
Only the R-32s had blue doors when new. I remember them well and, boy, do I miss them. The R-40s (both flavors) and R-42s had unpainted doors - on the exterior, anyway. Now, the interiors of the doors were finished in light blue; in fact, the World's Fair R-36s, R-32s, and R-38s had the same interior door finish as well.
During the mid-70s, the door exteriors of the R-32s were painted silver. In the early 80s, door exteriors of the R-32s, R-40s, and R-42s were painted in the same dark blue shade as the R-32s originally had. The door interiors on these cars were painted dark blue at the same time. The doors on the R-38s were never repainted, if I recall correctly.
I also remember a lot of orange interior doors, of which you can still see traces on many of the redbirds if you look closely at areas on the doors where paint has chipped -- if you look closely enough on the Flushing R-36 doors, you can even see tiny spots of the original blue!
I've also noticed on an R-32 that I rode recently on the R train, the gray paint on the seat was severely chipped and the original blue was clearly visable, and same thing on some redbirds too, where you can see traces of pink.
The orange was applied to door interiors in 1979-80 when most of the fleet was repainted silver and blue for the second time. Even some of the World's Fair R-36s got the silver and blue treatment after being skipped over in 1970-71. Not that it really mattered - as soon as those cars reentered service, they were desecrated once again by graffiti artists.
If I remember right, the doors on Shoreline's R-17 #6688 have an orange interior finish while the exterior is Redbird red.
If I remember correctly, one of the repaintings of the R17s had
their interior doors painted dark chocolate brown and the interiors
that gloppy beige, not a terrible combination of colors - but
the graffitti was unbearable. I noticed this esp. in the 6700 series
cars when they were all on the #4.
Wayne
I recall seeing the same blue-violet shade on R-17, R-21, and R-22 door interiors as found on the R-26s, R-27s, R-28s, R-29s, R-30s, and R-33s when the silver and blue scheme was first applied. I must admit that I rode the IRT very infrequently prior to 1977, so my memory may be a bit fuzzy.
Then they used some old film... no wonder the speed seemed so high :-)
There was a commercial for some Toyota jeep that has a man thinking to himself while coming out of a subway station in the Wall St. area.
But funny. The sign said "Pine-Wall". Now I was under the impression the Second Avenue subway wasn't finished. Or is it true what they say, "Don't believe what you see on TV".
I also remember a Maybeline commercial from last year with a woman in a subway station with a speeding subway train behind her. Though it was going at a HIGH rate of speed, I think most of us here would agree that it sure looked like an R-62.
Does anyone know when Metro North open house is being held this year?
last year it was on 10/18/97.
I meant to comment on this a while back when HOV lanes were being somewhat discussed.. but I think in CT exists the most useless and wasteful construction of HOV lanes that I have seen.
I'm referring to the stretch of Interstate I-84 just east of Hartford where they decided to build an extra lane in either direction that is more or less separated from the rest of the roadway. A single lane, with no passing opportunities. It has its own exit and entrance ramps and overpasses that could not possibly have been cheap. If you get stuck behind a slow vehicle.. you're screwed because you can't pass and you are not allowed to cross over the median into the regular lanes. From my observation on a late Friday morning, I only saw 1 car in the lane for its entire stretch (in both directions I may add). I'm guessing it's hardly used.
What were they thinking?
I know that stretch of I-84 very well from my days in Connecticut; it used to be I-86; a/k/a the old Wilbur Cross Highway. I-84 was supposed to go from Hartford to Providence. Two segments were built: the part through Manchester which is now known as I-384, and a 3-mile stretch which bypasses Willimantic and is now US 6. That whole project was killed by environmentalists, and they decided to use the money to upgrade I-86 from Hartford to the Mass. Pike and renumber it I-84. It took over a decade to complete the project; it was done in segments from the Mass. line toward Hartford. When I left for Colorado 18 years ago, they had progressed to where the HOV lanes begin now as the highway approaches Rockville/Vernon. I've gone back every year since 1982 for UConn's Homecoming, and was able to keep track of progress. It does seem to be a bit extravagantly overbuilt a la the IND; reversible lanes similar to what we have in Denver would have made more sense. Not to mention the fact that almost every bridge acoss the highway had to be replaced.
I personally have seen a bit more traffic on those HOV lanes at any given time, but not a whole lot more. If I'm not mistaken, those lanes are open at all times. The only reason I can think of as to why such a project was undertaken in the first place was to alleviate traffic in and out of Hartford. I can remember being stuck in PM rush hour traffic heading east out of Hartford on more than one occasion. It can be worse on I-91 north of Hartford; that stretch dates back to 1949.
I agree with you: it's an example of major overkill.
You are right about the poor design of the Connecticut HOV lanes. Almost as soon as they opened, drivers began complaining about being stuck behind slow buses and other vehicles ... which makes one wonder why nobody thought about that earlier! And you are right about the costs - even if the lanes were heavily used, they still would have been a poor idea because of the exhorbitant costs. But keep in mind that much of the design and especially construction took place in the middle 1980s, as far as I can recall, a time when money grew on trees in Connecticut and the state went on wild spending sprees (you'd better believe that the awakening in the early 1990s was a rude one indeed).
BTW - the HOV lanes also are found on Interstate 91 north of Hartford, toward Bradley airport.
I haven't driven on I-91 north of Hartford since around 1987, so the HOV lanes must have been added since then. Did that coincide with that flyover they built from eastbound I-84 to northbound I-91?
If what you say is true regarding wild spending sprees, that would have occurred after Gov. Ella Grasso passed away. She resigned from office in December of 1980 after being diagnosed with terminal cancer. During her tenure, she kept a lid on spending which resulted in surpluses for the state, but still less for UConn (I never cared for her). When Gov. O'Neill too office, the fun must have started then.
[I haven't driven on I-91 north of Hartford since around 1987, so the HOV lanes must have been added since then. Did that coincide with that flyover they built from eastbound I-84 to northbound I-91?]
They opened a year or two after that. The flyover construction wasn't directly a part of the HOV project (the lanes don't begin until a bit farther north than the 84/91 intersection), but was part of the same general upgrading of the highways.
[If what you say is true regarding wild spending sprees, that would have occurred after Gov. Ella Grasso passed away. She resigned from office in December of 1980 after being diagnosed with terminal cancer. During her tenure, she kept a lid on spending which resulted in surpluses for the state, but still less for UConn (I never cared for her). When Gov. O'Neill too office, the fun must have started then.]
Oh yes, the big spending sprees didn't start until about 1985. Connecticut was still in recession until 1983 or so. The wild times only lasted a few years; by early 1989 it was apparent that the state's economy was starting to slip. By the middle of 1990 Connecticut was in recession again, and took quite a while to recover (indeed, Hartford has never fully recovered).
When Maryland widened I-95 to four lanes from I-695 to MD 24, the new left hand lane was marked as "Future HOV Lane". Before the HOV lane could be opened, someone questioned the fact that the HOV lane would be restricted to cars with 4 people in them when the lane was built with highway tax money. The HOV lane was promptly killed and the signs were removed.
The same "it was built with public money" was the reason that the elevators in the Baltimore Metro can be used by anybody, not just the "disabled".
maybe you should contemplate that on BART a bicyclist is required to either carry the bike up the stairs or use the elevator. as to HOV lanes the proper answer would be that the right of govt. to regulate traffic--i.e. one way streets, restrict sizes of vehicles, numbers of trailers makes a balid precedent for car pool requirements
How else would you get the bike upstairs?
I think they meant "carry the bike up the stairs" not as the alternative to "ride the bike up the stairs" (which, as you point out, is nearly impossible) but "carry the bike up the ESCALATOR."
Indeed, on BART, particularly in downtown SF where the BART tracks are two levels down--like unto say the 6th ave platform at W4th, there is a ghreat temptation to use the escalator with bike--EXPRESSLY PROHIBITED!
How else would you get the bike upstairs?
"The same 'it was built with public money' was the reason that the elevators in the Baltimore Metro can be used by anybody, not just the 'disabled'."
I agree with you on the HOV lanes, but what's wrong with allowing the general public to use the elevators as long as it's not to the exclusion of the disabled passengers for whom the lifts were installed? Not every non-disabled person who uses the lift is a punk who's going to commit sabotage. Especially if you have a system that goes to the airport (I know it's the light rail and not Metro that goes to BWI, but I'm sure some people take the Metro to the LRT and then the LRT to BWI), it's preferable to allow the elevator to be used by people who have bulky items (travelers, shoppers, cyclists, some businesspeople) rather than have them jam the escalator and stairs.
Here in Chicago, there are elevators in some key stations, and they in general are not abused. They are still there for the disabled to use, but are also there for the people carrying travel bags to O'Hare and Midway and the tourists headed from the downtown stores -- laden with bags -- to their edge-city hotels. It's rare for people not laden with packages to use the elevators.
Just as an example, The Washington Metro refuses to let other than physically disabled passengers on the elevators to the station. Try a tourist family with 2 kids in strollers schlepping 2 kids, folded strollers and assorted "tourista junk" on an escalator. WMATA also does not believe in stairs, every station has only escalators for entrance/exit.
The Baltimore MTA did the right thing - it's built with public money, we cannot restrict its use.
"Just as an example, The Washington Metro refuses to let other than physically disabled passengers on the elevators to the station."
Since when? I've ridden the Metro (a most excellent system, by the way) and every time I used a station I used the elevator (I have a phobia of escalators -- don't ask). Most times that I used the elevator, there was at least one another non-disabled person in the lift with me. Most times, I was in full view of Metro personnel, and none of them ever told me not to use the elevator.
I travel to DC frequently, and the Metro exit closest to one of the offices I visit (FAA on Independence Ave.; L'Enfant Plaza Station) is an elevator. I use it all the time, along with many others, and no one has ever said a word. Nor have I ever seen a sign saying not to use the elevator.
Is there a regulation that is not publicized (such as no photography in the Boston subway)?
You do the Weather at the nation's capital too, OR just ride the trolleys & buses there ?
Mr t__:^)
My (full-time) employer, the American Meteorological Society, has an office in DC. (WCBS is a part-time job.) So I go to DC often on weekdays. Some colleagues of mine insist on taking taxis (non-metered in DC, and always a ripoff!), and I take the Metro. Guess who wins, timewise and costwise?
A while back I was in DC and reached into my wallet for my Metro fare card. It was conviently tucked between my MetroCard and MBTA pass! Neat.
I have no doubt that your day time trips on the metro are cheaper and quicker than a cab in DC. But do you really find cabs in DC to be a ripoff in comparrison to other cities? As long as you know where the zones are, I've found DC to be way cheaper than NY, Philly, SF, Boston - or just about any other city I've visited within the US.
The only drawback of cabs in DC is that the driver can pick up multiple riders. Anyway, the DC Metro doesn't really give you an option of not taking a cab after 12:30 am.
My problem with DC cabs is the lack of meters, and the zone fares. We have an office in DC near MetroCenter, and I usually stay at a hotel near Georgetown. If I have a lot of luggage and have to take a cab, I know what the proper fare should be. But when I ask what the fare is, I'm never told the same thing twice; and you can be sure it's always higher. Once I was even told the "four zone" price even though I know it's one zone. And if I offer what I know is the correct fare, I get an argument.
I feel really bad for tourists or other out-of-towners who get ripped off in this way and don't know enough to argue. The average cab rider in DC can't figure out the proper fare on his/her own, even looking at the posted cryptic zone map/chart.
Take the Metro. It's fun, and has a fair fare!
I didn't mean to pick on DC cabs, though in my mind the zone fare system needs to be replaced with meters. While I'm sure the majority of cabbies are honest, there are notable exceptions.
In my 15+ years of commuting from Boston to NYC 30 times per year, I think I've taken a cab from LGA to Manhattan twice (bless the Q-33/E and M-60/N!). But one of those trips stands out. I had a ton of luggage, and got in a cab at LGA. Heading over the Triboro Bridge, we were in the left lane. I asked the cabbie why he wasn't in the right lane, to take the exit for the Manhattan span to get on the FDR Drive. His reply, "I'm taking a short cut over the Tappan Zee Bridge." Just for fun, I asked , "And how long will that take, and how much will it cost?" He said, "Oh, about an hour and $60 or $70 depending on traffic."
At which point I said, "And I work for the radio station you're listening to right now." Nuff said.
Friends have told me similar stories of similar trips here in Boston.
Here in Chicago, there is a sign on the back of the front passenger seat, required by city ordinance, stating the rules relating to taxis, including fare structure and approximate fares to popular locations. The sign says it should cost about $20 from downtown to O'Hare or Midway.
If I recall correctly, from the one time I was in NYC, isn't there a city-fixed fare between LaGuardia (and, I presume, JFK) and a speciifed portion of Midtown? And a sign to that effect in the taxi?
You are probably remembering a test of a fixed-fare system from JFK (only, not LGA) to Manhattan. There was a lot of opposition on the part of cabbies, as one might expect. Someone correct me if I'm wrong - I don't believe the test was continued or made permanent.
"You are probably remembering a test of a fixed-fare system from JFK (only, not LGA) to Manhattan."
No, it would have to have been LaGuardia -- the only time I went to New York, I flew out of LGA. I want to say, though I'm not certain these few years later, that the prix fixe was $25 or $30.
I don't know about LGA, but I'm pretty sure there still is a fixed fare of $30 from JFK to Manhattan.
I'm sure I'll end up in a cab at some point this evening - I'll try to make a note of it then.
We rode to Manhattan from LGA by taxi two years ago via the Midtown tunnel, and the fare was $25 to where we were headed. I'll probably end up doing that next month; as much as I prefer the Q-33 and the F to 14th St., I don't like the idea of getting back spasms from toting luggage up and down stairs.
Sounds as if that guy had pulled that stunt before on some unsuspecting out-of-towner. I'll bet he turned beet red and stammered "Hamanahamanahamana", or just said, "Ooooooh-kay" when you delivered the clincher (in your New York accent, I hope).
Speaking of cab stories, former Dodger pitcher Preacher Roe talked about an experience he had during his first trip to New York in 1938 in The Boys of Summer. He arrived at Penn Station, found a cab, and told the driver to take him to the Hotel Lincoln, where the Cardinals, who had just signed him, were expecting him. Of course, he had no address or any idea where this hotel was (it was around 46th St. and 8th Ave., I think), and the driver knew right away that Preacher was a hilbilly from the Ozarks. The ride ended up costing him $9.00; he found out later when the Cardinals were leaving town that he got taken for a real ride: Brooklyn, Astoria, and who knows where else. As he put it, he was about to step into another cab when one of his teammates pointed out that the train station was 12 blocks away, down 8th Ave., and that they would walk.
I've got a (sort of) funny story that goes the other way. A cabbie told me once that he had a out-of-town businessman as a fare, who hailed the cab at the Union Station and wanted to go to a hotel in North Michigan Avenue. Obviously, the most direct route is to head due east on Jackson or Monroe and then north on Michigan Avenue. Therefore, the cab crossed the Chicago River twice -- heading east on Jackson, it crossed the South Branch of the river, and headed north on Michigan, it crossed the main branch of the river.
Well, seeing that he crossed a river twice, the passenger was convinced that he had been "taken for a ride" and refused to pay the fare. The cabbie had to call over a cop, who explained the geographic situation to the passenger. The passenger paid because the cop was there, but he said that he still thought he had been taken for a ride, and that the cop was in on it!
I guess that's why we're all subway fans -- one fare, self-directed travel. If you are "taken for a ride" it's either your own fault, or 'cause you LIKE IT! And we do, don't we???
Yes, DC Metro's fare IS fair: the minimum (base and peak) is $1.10
and the maximum is $3.25 (peak).
There is also a $5.00 all-day pass available, but it's only good
after 9:30AM. Still, for someone like myself, who hops on and off
the system a gazillion times THAT'S A REAL DEAL.
My strategy for the next trip will be this: Buy a $2.00 card (for
the first part of the run, making sure that it ends AFTER 9:30AM)
THEN get a pass and do my usual thing.
Wayne
Re: Termination of transit in the wee hours out-side of NYC.
And on go old LI the bus company stops in the early evening.
My daughter had to take the bus to college this week, water pump went on the car (at 100,000 I got my moneys worth).
The good news N16 goes right into the Nassau Community College lot.
Bad news the last bus is at 9:30, her class gets out after 10 PM.
She said there was no other way to get to Hempstead (main terminal). So she called a friend. Why is this, the Mall closes at 9:30.
Mr t__:^)
Here in Denver, Santa Fe Drive (US 85) underwent a major rebuilding and widening which included one HOV lane in each direction. These lanes are merely striped off and marked as such, but are otherwise an integral part of the roadway. Although they are restricted to high occupancy vehicles only during rush hours, anyone can use them during all other times.
I-25 has a separate pair of reversible HOV lanes between 20th St. and 70th Ave. They will eventually be connected to US 36. Electronic message boards are situated at each end before the access ramps. These HOV lanes are used by southbound traffic including buses bound for downtown during AM rush hours and by northbound traffic during PM rush hours and, interestingly enough, all day on weekends. There is a flyover ramp leading from the median of I-25 along 20th St. all the way to Blake St. which goes right past Coors Field. Unlike Santa Fe Drive, the HOV lanes on I-25 are restricted to 2 or more people per car whenever they're open, and the police do monitor their usage. There have been a few instances in which the HOV lanes were open to all traffic heading northbound due to construction. There is no access to I-70 from the HOV lanes.
For those interested in seeing the vacuum train in action, it will be operating tonight in Queens. Between Midnight and 5 AM the train will be operating on D-2 (northbound local) track between 75th Ave and Parsons Blvd (F Line).
How many abandoned platforms are there in the NYC subway? This includes subways/els/open-cuts and active/inactive/abandoned stations.
This isn't putting your knowledge on the spot, but does anyone know the answer?
It's not really a novel inquiry. Joe Brennan put together an exhaustive list of them ages ago :-)
See it at http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/rails/
-Dave
My name is Frank and I am a signal maintainer for the Toronto Transit Commission. If you are a signal maintainer whom would like to exchange job information..etc... please email.. Thanks !
Quick scene in "Money Train": character jumps onto roof of
moving train, crawls through open cab window, and winds up
in a cab on the LEFT side of the car. Inside shot towards
storm door shows TWO m/m cabs: special effects or actually
modified for the film ?
There was a film from the 1940's (?), "The Mad Doctor",
starring Basil Rathbone. In one scene, one of the characters
is chased onto a subway platform and pushes a passenger
in front of an oncoming train. Series of scenes showing m/m
struggling to stop, train shuddering to a hard stop,
m/m opening storm door to view body....
Car looked alot like a "low-v".
Now the question: did "Hollywood" of the 1930's and 40's
film subway scenes "on location" or was there a "back lot" ?
Was the rolling stock "home made" or were derelict cars
obtained from operating properties ?
In bygone days, movie directors would pose the actors on, say, a Pacific Electric interurban or a studio mockup of a subway car and use stock footage of trains. Nowadays, subway scenes are more authentic; that is to say, subway scenes are shot on location, although not necessarily at the actual station or on the actual equipment being portrayed, and trains may not be correctly marked.
I remember seeing that as a child! I believe (DON'T HOLD ME TO THIS -
THE MEMORY IS ATTEMPTING TO REACH BACK 35 YEARS) that it was
(supposedly) Broadway-Lafayette and the train was an R-1/9 marked "D".
To all those out there, please correct me if I'm wrong.
And who can forget Lucille Ball's adventure aboard a Low-V with a loving cup on her head? There were shots (some backwards) what looked like a D-Type Triplex in there, as well as various Low-V motors and trailers, with the train itself - Woodlawn (4) to Flatbush (2) - Lex Local. As for the stations - forgetaboutit - totally ersatz sets, as usual. But hilarious, nonetheless. Also the original King Kong's destruction of Low-V #4977, obviously staged. (6th Avenue "El").
Wayne
I saw that I Love Lucy episode last spring and taped it. There's lots of stock footage, to be sure, and a variety of equipment portrayed: Lo-Vs, R-1/9s on the AA, and R-12/14s on the Flushing line, which appear to be backwards. I thought the editing was a bit awkward in places, specifically where trains are seen pulling into stations. They used a studio mockup which bears a strong resemblance to a BMT standard.
Speaking of King Kong, the 1976 remake featured R-16s.
Ah yes, I remember those RR's well -
wasn't one of them #6311? However, the interior shots tried to
duplicate the actual R16 - and the blowers were too small. I think
they reproduced those slanted door-mechanism pockets, though.
Wayne
Dave,
Can I make a suggestion?
I think that a nice addition to this site would be a list from 1 to 468 of the busiest stations in the subway. Though I'm sure no one has the time, if ever in the market for a new improvement(like the battery we've seen over the past month), this might be a good one.
The problem is, such a list is not readily available to the public. Besides, I feel that the MTA should be publishing their own facts and figures on their own site. Let them worry about keeping such information up to date....
The MTA wrote back to me, and said that it could not institute a half-fare for children off peak because it would be impossible to eliminate fraud (ie. the use of the half fare card by adults). How many of you think I should send it back with an additional letter, demanding that the half-fare for the elderly be removed (at least during rush hours) because it is impossible to prevent fraud and unconstitutional age discrimination?
The age discrimination issue arose when the large and well educated "baby-boom" generation seemed to be pushing the smaller, less well educated prior generations out of the way. But just as laws preventing "anti-Black" discrimination were later used to prevent "anti-White" discrimination, so the age discrimination rules can be re-used now that children are clearly the disadvantaged group.
Again, an off peak discount which applies equally to everyone is, to me, the fair and economically justified rule.
Off-Peek for everyone: Can & is done fairly easily on the buses. Yes that's right Rudy has us "privates" giving floks a break every day between 10 AM and 3 PM, AND all day Sat & Sun. Tell Mom to shop with us mid-day, there's even room for her bags. Shopping carts & strollers ... if you can fold it up, bring it along. Want to bike it, there's a rack up front (holds two, so bike with a friend) :^)
:-| (my serious face) On the subway it's a little more difficult, I think. We'll let a couple of our Subway Station Agents comment if they CAN change the fare-set (on the bus you just push the code on the keypad, i.e. ODI). But even if the Agent can't do it, the "system" could, i.e. change all the turnstiles at the proper time. Granted this system broadcast will be a diffucult communications problem, BUT if they do it station by station it would work (do it randomly at the stations so those savy folks won't know they have an extra few minutes grace, yea you would have to complete the update of the reduction BEFORE it goes off-peek because folks would complain otherwise, but on the other end they won't mind if the discount extends a few).
So Larry do write the TA, ask them why they can't/won't do this when Rudy & his DOT bus guys can. That provides a benifit to the majority of the surface rides in Queens, but almost no one elsewhere in NYC.
Disclaimer: Oponions expressed here are my own & I'm not running for any political office.
Mr t__:^)
The TA should start it
(Write the MTA about off peak fares). I wrote a letter to every member of the board, including Virg himself (fellow Colgate Grad), suggesting off-peak discounts when the surplus first came up. They went with the pass instead, perhaps because that's what the Straphangers were pushing for. The fact that off-peak discounts are offered in Queens makes me even more crazed, but I think the MTA has heard from me enough at this point.
I'm still confused about the fare collection system at NJ Transit.
Bus - Cubic fareboxes, that take bills & dip cards ?
Train - Cubic ATM type machines that issue tickets ?
P.S. I do know the "bin" that collects the money from the buses looks just like the one right in front of me. The only difference is a plate in side because ours don't use the bill side. Also we took off the hand brakes because they kept locking up.
Mr nosy t__:^)
NJ Transit bus fareboxes do not accept farecards of any kind (NJ Transit does not have any farecards). They accept only coins (including pennies - something NYCTA buses don't) and dollar bills (also something NYCTA doesn't accept). In fact, up until a few years ago, the Newark Subway (considered part of the bus division) still had the "chinging" glass-top farebox that only took coins.
NYCTA fareboxes do in fact accept pennies. The NYCTA says that they dont accept pennies. However, it is the case that they do not want them. The only coins the TA fareboxes dont accept is half-dollars. They do in fact take dollar coins. The NJ transit fareboxes accept half-dollars, and dollar bills, and everything else, except the farecard. If they wanted to install a farecard system, all they would have to do is install a TPU (ticket processing unit) available from Cubic which would attach to the side of the farebox which would allow the farebox to dispense magnetic paper transfers and handle the farecards.
NJT bus service does accept passes (from NJT) as a flash pass only. The bus operator just hits a tally button counter and records the fare that way. (it is not mechanically conencted to the fare box.) I ride a private contracted line at times within Jersey and they do take passes as a flash pass. (flash and board)
NJT bus service does accept passes (from NJT) as a flash pass only. The bus operator just hits a tally button counter and records the fare that way. (it is not mechanically connected to the fare box.) I ride a private contracted line at times within Jersey and they do take passes as a flash pass. (flash and board)
Should have read your post before I wrote, thanks for info. Mr t__:^)
Re: Adding swipe/dip cards: Chicago still has the "shoe box" strapped onto the side of their GFI Farebox. The only problem is, with Transfers the driver has to keep a bunch in his/her pocket and feed them in one at a time.
Re: Pennies, Dollars & Half-dollars: At my depot we send the bank a bag or two of pennies every day. SBA silver dollars go right in but the older series & half-dollars won't physically fit into the slot on the top. Interesting side bar: The old Express bus token & TBTA bridge token DO fit, but the system no longer counts them as a value. Reason, they're so few comming in and most that size are foreign money.
Re: Trains: Is NJ Transit still using paper passes ?
Mr t__:^)
NJT is still using paper passes (and tickets). the color changes each month.
This is interesting, because the Farebox vendor, Cubic, must have been fustrated that they couldn't get NJTransit onboard, i.e. motivated to go to dip/swipe cards as NYC went. The bin that collects the Farebox money is the same as our's (privates), except for a metal insert that prevents coins from going to the "bill" side of the bin. Your posts mean that they have a completely different Farebox. This I was told before & argued about it ... they were right.
I wonder if NJ Transit hit the same brick wall, as CTtransit did, if they offered to participate in the MetroCard system. NOW they talk about MetroNorth, LIRR, LI Bus & Suffolk Transit as part of the "seamless" system, but this wasn't always the case.
Interesting sidebar: A LI Bus driver claims that he's never seen a LIRR Mail-N-Ride MetroCard (he's a collector so he's been looking for one). This would be interesting: LIRR commuters DRIVE to station & use subway in NYC, but don't use LI Bus. Does anyone happen to know if LI Bus runs routes so that they're convient to LIRR stations ? In my "village" they're very convient, but is that a exception vs. rule ?
Mr t__:^)
Remember that Utah tourist who was stabbed on the subway many years ago? His family has just accepted a $300,000 settlement from the city. The city accepted responsibility for failing to warn them that the subway was dangerous.
Aside from the fact that the family was white, educated, and affluent, and the case was publicized, what possible reason does the Mayor have for giving away my money? Is everyone who is victimized on the subway entitled to $300,000, or some smaller figure for lesser crimes? And what is the city going to do to insulate itself from future liability? I suggest ongoing station announcements in several languages "The subway is very dangerous and full of criminals who might kill you...we strongly suggest you drive instead."
BUT, that is the preception ! We here in NYC are type cast as bad people. I get this when I go to a rual area of CT. My son had a real problem in a local college outside of Denver. My other son had problems at college in upstate NY. The out-of-towners in this group are the only tourest who WANT to ride transit when they come to town. Well maybe add the Euorpean's who don't know any better, i.e. by and large they use transit vs. cars there. How do you change that ... I don't know.
Mr t__:^)
It's not just New York! Both Milwaukee and the Twin Cities are talking light rail (Minneapolis is farther along, and supposedly, the system there is beyond the planning stage and into the contracting stage). If you go to the websites of the big newspapers in those cities, there are bulletin boards on various topics of local concern, including one board at each paper on light rail.
While many people on the boards are pro-LR, and others are antis but at least open to logical argument, there is a vocal and persistent minority on the boards that is religiously anti-LR. I say religiously because they repeat mantras against rail transit, and even in the face of evidence against those mantras they keep chanting them. The mantras are:
1) Light rail has to be subsidized to the tune of millions of dollars. Why should I pay to subsidize rail passengers? No rail system should be built unless it will eventually make a profit.
DUH! Rail is subsidized (i.e. funded from the general treasury) to the sum of millions of dollars and loses money. SO ARE THE ROADS (and police, schools, fire department, etc., etc)! Point out that the road system and the other public services are paid for mainly from general taxes and are not expected to make a profit, they respond that roads are just plain different from rail, and can't justify why! The roads are a sacred cow, while transit is a sacrificial lamb.
2) Rail systems are loaded with crime -- here they typically point to Chicago and NYC -- and furthermore make it easy for criminals to come from bad neighborhoods to good ones to commit crimes. You take your life into your hands by riding the trains! You condemn your neighborhood to becoming a slum by allowing the train line to even run through it!
This is the one that boils my blood.
A) This is not the 1930s: even people in bad neighborhoods have cars, especially if they need it for work (criminals included in that group). People going to the suburbs to burglarize and shoplift go by car so they can make a fast getaway and carry their booty. They don't want to wait for a train!
B) When they talk about "the wrong people" being able to come to the suburbs, they are presuming the rail ridership to be mostly poor and minority. I've told them that I take the CTA every day, that I'm a white-collar middle-class white who lives in a suburb and owns a 1998 Ford (I don't have to ride the trains), and that most of the people I see on the trains are respectable middle-class people (majority white but including people of all races) headed to and from work, and even families of tourists. It doesn't faze them one bit. I tell them that the richest people on the North Shore (executives, bankers, high-class attorneys) ride the Metra in to the Loop every day, and it doesn't even stop them to think for a second. I tell them that I've seen the same middle-class riderhsip on the Boston, New York, and Washington systems when I've been in those cities. They don't want to hear anything that breaks their (un)holy stereotype.
C) As to crime on the system itself, yes it happens but hundreds of thousands of people ride the trains every day and don't even see a crime. Rarely have I felt unsafe on a train. Many an evening heading home, I've slept on the train and never been bothered (except by the worry that I'd overshoot my stop). The only time my wallet was stolen was not on the subway, after eight straight years of ridership and counting, but in a private gym in the suburbs! Again, they don't want to hear anything that threatens their die-hard belief that the subways are a death-trap.
I personally think the whole thing was a crock. While it is true that the NYCT and the City should take some respinsibility in warning tourists of the dangers of the subway(when I sent for the lastest subway map, htey sent a whole packet, two multi-page pamphlets about safety on the system[particularly the subway]), anybody with a sliver of common sense or the sense of hearing should know that using a subway, ANY subway, isn't 100% safe and in our larger cities, in some instances, unfortunately, is a gamble with your life!
I think ol' Rudy and Philly's Mayor Ed Rendell use the same stand-in.
They both shamelessly promote their cities(though I have to give Ed kudos on this one) and it works(somewhat) and wouldn't dream of attempting to do anything that might scare away tourists. My advice,
it may be dangerous, but would you rather walk to Times Square from JFK, or ride the system with all those horrid people.
Otherwise, stay the heck home.
If that tourist from Utah was looking and acting like a tourist, well, that may be part of the reason.
BTW, what local college outside of Denver does your son attend? If he's attending CU in Boulder, I'm not surprised if there was a problem.
Re: What college: No not at Boulder, even smaller ... UNC at Grandby, where the Broncho's train in the summer. It's a very small town.
Why ... he met a girl at the Denver airport on a Boy Scout trip.
At the orientation I saw the attitude for myself by the questions they were asking (I'm .... from ....). Well at least I got to see the trains in Chicago & got my feet wet in Lake Michigan.
Mr t__:^)
Actually, UNC is located in Greeley. Good school.
I got my feet wet in Lake Michigan as a kid numerous times, having been to Union Pier and Beverly Shores. To this day, if I see a substantial water puddle, I will say it's the size of Lake Michigan. Once a Hoosier, always a Hoosier...
Steve, You're right, sorry about that.
Granby is in Texas, South of Dallas, went to a wedding there. My wife & mother-in-law also made the trip to Greeley. They made a side trip to the foot of the Rockies, unfortunatly I didn't.
Omaha has quite an extensive rail facility, ever seen it ?
Mr t__:^)
[Remember that Utah tourist who was stabbed on the subway many years ago? His family has
just accepted a $300,000 settlement from the city. The city accepted responsibility for failing to warn them that the subway was dangerous.
Aside from the fact that the family was white, educated, and affluent, and the case was publicized, what possible reason does the Mayor have for giving away my money? Is
everyone who is victimized on the subway entitled to $300,000, or some smaller figure for lesser crimes?]
Most of the settlement is being paid by the city rather than the Transit Authority. It's based on a claim of inadequate emergency medical care - apparently, the ambulance bypassed the nearest hospital and went to a more distant one, and this delay might have been fatal.
There was a secondary negligence claim against the TA. It was claimed that the victim and his family told the token clerk that a group of criminals was acting in a menacing manner, and the clerk didn't do anything.
This is exactly the sort of thing that causes attorneys to dislike the media: a case is portrayed as $300,000 paid for the TA failing to warn that the subway is unsafe -- which we all agree is not a reasonable basis for liability. People fret and moan about how stupid the legal system is. Most people never hear the true story, that the case is actually about a perfectly reasonable complaint -- a severely injured person being brought to a more distant hospital when time was of the essence.
The media does this all the time -- if they don't like the outcome of a case, they don't lie in the sense of making up false statements. No, they just leave out whatever facts make the lawsuit sound at least reasonable if not correct, so what the people hear of course sounds preposterous. Why?
Because there's more news in alleging systematic and widespread dysfunction than in a system that basically works but makes the occasional mistake. No paper would make money saying that most public officials are relatively honest and are trying to do their job but a few are corrupt. It sells papers to portray most or all politicians as crooked -- damn the effects on public perception and behavior. No radio station would pull in listeners by conceding that most police officers are honestly working to protect the public as best they can. It makes more ratings points to portray the average cop as a racist bully -- damn the effect on the ability of the police to do their job. And no paper would make money admitting that the legal system generally does a good job but makes bad decisions on occasion. It brings in viewers to portray the legal system as a "lottery" -- damn the fact that the legal system is only as good as the peoples' willingness to entrust their disputes to it.
As a former newspaper reporter, who covered the courts for four years and was outspoken about the fairness and clear-mindedness of most lawyers, I'd like to respectfully ask you to re-read your above post.
You decry portrayals of the legal, transit, political and other systems that paint them as corrupt failures, instead of as valuable institutions subject to occasional mistakes. And you're quite right to make this complaint.
Yet in your criticism of the institution you hold responsible -- the media -- you engage in exactly the same kind of sweeping, generalized condemnation.
You write: "... no paper would make money admitting that the legal system generally does a good job but makes bad decisions on occasion."
Other such statements begin with the words "No paper" and "No radio station."
That is precisely as unfair, inaccurate and unhelpful as a newspaper article that states "No lawyer would make money by simply representing his/her client's interests while honoring the spirit of judicial ethics."
There are journalists, and news organizations, that warp the truth, or defeat it, for their own selfish purposes. Those who work their butts off trying not to do that (for generally low pay) also fail sometimes, being human. And at other times, the system in which they work thwarts their best efforts.
All the same things can be said of lawyers, politicians, transit officials, et al, and the judicial, political and transit systems in which they work.
I have no problem with pointing out the individual failures or evil acts of individuals and individual organizations within any of these systems, including the media and the law.
It is also a civic good to criticize entire systems or large parts of them at times, asserting that there are too many failures in a particular system.
Thus, you may feel that the news media as an institution, and not just a few of its component parts, needs to be reformed in various ways.
And others may feel that, for example, the American criminal justice system appears much more effective to a wealthy, white male who can afford a formidable phalanx of defense attorneys than it does to a poor, minority defendant represented by an overworked public defender.
Those are both legitimate targets for fairminded, specific, intellectually rigorous critiques.
But there is more than enough polarization, anger, generalized bashing and other detritus polluting our public life in many ways, from the thoroughly outrageous behavior and public statements of certain lawyers, politicians, and government officials to the biased, overly negative reporting of certain of the media who write about them.
If you want solve that problem, as you genuinely seem to, please don't let yourself become part of it.
Nonetheless, the profit motive does seem to be impelling news organizations to present the world in a way that disgusts the public and, increasingly, jounalists themselves. Most people are too busy with their own lives to pay attention to a newscast. The way to get their attention is either to tell them what they want to hear (ie. its someone else's fault you're not happy) or to scare them (yes things are fine, but here comes a threat to take it all away). Much like politicians.
Just take what you read about land use and zoning in the local papers...
What a nice debate, no name calling just thoughtful points of view.
I'm not going to side with John, Larry or Tony, but i'm reading it all, thanks guys !
As you point out, I have painted with too broad a brush, and I apologize for that. I should not describe all of the media in the manner I did, and of course you are correct that one of the purposes of the media is to point out corruption or inefficiency where it exists, and that many members of the media sincerely work towards this goal.
On the other hand, it is my experience for most, but not all, cases described in media coverage as "frivolous", when I go and read the actual case from the law reports, it turns out that either:
1) the case is not as frivolous as it seems, but the facts that make the case a legitimate dispute have somehow been left out of the media coverage, or
2) the case really is frivolous, and it was thrown out sometime after the case was no longer a big story.
This is why I feel so strongly about the perception or coverage of the legal system. These "frivolous" cases have a life of their own and are pulled out again and again (not by the media) as bludgeons, the lead-ins to lawyer bashing.
To be fair, the "frivolous" case phenomenon may not be a function of the media as such. Much of the drawn-out "discussion" of "frivolous" cases that turn out to have more to them than meets they eye seems to occur on radio programs, both of the DJ and the "talk show" variety, which are more entertainment than true news. It is these sources that are most likely to describe truly preposterous lawsuits right after they are filed and fall into the fallacy of discussing them as if the plaintiff will automatically win and get every cent they asked for. (As an attorney, my response to that is "I wish!") The problem is that these long non-news faulty dissections of law cases blend in the public mind with the more even-handed "real news" coverage.
Also, I don't think when facts are left out of media coverage of cases that this is necessarily intentional: due to space or time limitations, the individual reporter or their supervisors **have to** decide what is important and what isn't, and they can inadvertantly leave out something which seems less important to them but which might actually be the reason the case came out the way it did.
Larry this bothers me as well. As tragic as this case (and any other crime that occurs as well) was, I think this sets a very bad precedent for further law suits.
If there was an argument to be made, perhaps it could be that the city did not create a safe environment. I think if a settlement was reached and the city agrees that it failed in that respect, then I think it would be far more suitable. Let's examine this in depth.
The underlying problem was that the subway was not safe (ie. the tourist was killed). To suggest that the issue was that tourists are not notified was save is at best a way to avoid the original problem by liability, but does not solve the original problem. If the subway was admitted to being unsafe, then new measures could be taken to make it safe. But if we instead insist on publicizing it is not safe, money that is sent on publicizing this could have been directed to making it safe in the first place.
Additionally, like Larry suggested, to prevent further liability, NYCT has placed itself in a position to bash its own product rather than improving it. Do we have to see PSA's that warn about subway safety now. Is NYCT going to buy airtime in other states like Utah to say "if you come to New York, please take these steps to avoid attacks.. etc." No, that's ridiculous.
This is a case where we can thouroughly say the courts screwed up. I think it would be in more people's interests if actual safety was addressed and not safety awareness. Although important, safety awareness should NEVER be used in place of safety measures, but should compliment them in reasonable ways which I believe that NYCT has already addressed with signage.
"This is a case where we can thouroughly say the courts screwed up."
How did the courts screw up? What COURT ordered or decided that the City or the TA has to pay money? It was a SETTLEMENT.
Except when the plaintiff is a child or other person who has a guardian, courts don't approve settlements, they are voluntary agreements. Even when the courts do review settlements, they are not supposed to second-guess the decision to settle as much as they are supposed to make sure the person who can't look out for themselves (child or incompetent person) isn't getting screwed by either side.
It's the City or the TA's fault for settling rather than going to court. If they continued with the case, I think that the TA would almost surely have won. There's no duty to warn when the risk is obvious or well-known, and I doubt the Utah tourists, or anyone else who has seen Hollywood's treatment of New York City, could say they never heard stories (exaggerated or not) about how unsafe the subway is.
Assuming the case survived a summary judgment motion and went to trial, the TA's attorney would tear the plaintiff apart on cross-examination if he or she tried to claim they had never heard the reputation (again, exaggerated or not) of the New York subway system.
[It's the City or the TA's fault for settling rather than going to court. If they continued with the case, I think that the TA would almost surely have won. There's no duty to warn when the risk
is obvious or well-known, and I doubt the Utah tourists, or anyone else who has seen Hollywood's treatment of New York City, could say they never heard stories (exaggerated or not) about how unsafe the subway is.]
Duty to warn wasn't at issue. Only a small part of the claim addressed the TA, and that related to the token clerk's alleged failure to respond to a dangerous situation. Likewise, the TA is paying only a small part of the settlement.
Even if duty to warn was an issue in this case, the TA could point at the safety tips it posts in stations and elsewhere (in addition to the perceptions you mention).
Ooopss. meant to say "lawyers" not "courts".. don't know why I said courts.
John: NY1 claims that the settlement was in exchange for failing to warn tourists about the menence of the subway, and failing to take the victim to the closest hospital. Since the city caved in, we'll never know if the former claim is valid.
The Mayor has done this before. Remember the Crown Heights riot? It occurred during the Dinkins Administration. A caravan of vehicles carrying Hasidic jews ran over a black boy, leading to a boiling over of tensions which led to violence and the stabbing of a young Hasidic man by a gang of Blacks. Years later Rudy Giuliani paid out settlements on the grounds that the police decided to fail to protect people. Just how exactly is this MY fault, and why do people deserve MY money? Sue the cops, the former Mayor, etc.
I get the feeling that its always cheaper to settle one case, but the practice of settling has led to a lawsuit happy public.
I think your assessment of the settlement is somewhat out of left field. The settlement was apportioned this way:
The NYCT $15,000 and was held only marginally responsible.
The City of NY $285,000 or the balance of the settlement for two reasons. First was because EMS failed to take the victim to the nearest hospital. This was a common and dangerous practice in the EMS back then. Second, was because of the perception that NYC and Mayor Dinkins in particular had an unofficial tollerance for certain types of street crimes. I think after this incident and the Crown Heights Riot, the former mayor should have been held personally responsible in part for this crime.
The opinions expressed above are mine alone and do not necessarilly represent the views of the NYCT or the MTA
Okay Okay, I'll remember that McDonalds Coffee is HOT and that NYC Subway is dangerous!!
Shesh....
I realise that this is hardly the point, but out of curiosity, what are some of the details surrounding the murder?
Was it actually on a train or in a station? What station / line? What time of day? etc.
Also, I wonder what NYers feel are the most unsafe parts of the subway? (I mean unsafe lines/parts of lines/stations as opposed to passageways)
The incident happened at the 7th Avenue station of the B/D/E line
at 53rd Street, right in the heart of Manhattan. If I remember
correctly, it happened in the early evening hours, but don't quote
me on this.
I've been riding around the system doing photo work for the last year
and the only "incident" I saw occurred at 59th St./Lexington Avenue,
again, right in the heart of Manhattan. As for "dangerous" lines,
that is a matter of perception - since overall crime is way down,
what one would perceive as a "dangerous" line is in fact, quite safe.
As for the miscreant who tried to seize my shoulder bag (again,
right in the middle of Manhattan - he DID NOT get it) -
that could have happened anywhere - most crimes are crimes of
opportunity and not endemic to specific areas of the City. If I
had to venture a guess, I would have to conclude that the least safe parts of the system are likely to be those with the least traffic.
Then again - case in point - Bushwick-Aberdeen Station in Brooklyn -
rarely have I seen ANYONE there, but on the five times I have
visited that station, camera in hand, absolutely nothing has happened.
Wayne
To Wayne Whitehorne: You are correct. It was at the 53rd street and 7th Aveune station of the B/D/E line. The folks from Utah were coming from the U.S. Open Tennis in 1990 in Queens and were going to Grennwich Village to go to dinner. I heard it on the radio and TV. I also passed the station on the way to work the 12am-8am shift that night. I take the D train to 47th St-50th St. Rockefeller Plaza, where i work, so i go through the station mentioned above. Some police were still at the station that day.
Charlie Muller.
I remember reading about that incident, now that you mention 7th Ave.-53rd St. One of the thugs was quoted as saying, "Let's get paid". If I remember right, those tourists were all dressed up for dinner. That all by itself can attract attention. Didn't the gentleman who was murdered refuse to hand over his money?
I get the impression that it was a case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. It can happen to anyone.
The young man who was murdered was defending his mother who was targetted by the thugs. The mother would not give up her money. The family had earlier reported to a token clerk that the youths were menacing customers on the platform. The clerk never called for help - hence the TA's limited legal responsibility.
The young man was taken to a hospital, not the closest one. Unfortunately, he died shortly there-after. Part of the cities legal responsibility was that this was a common practice by the EMS. The rest was due to then Mayor David Dinkins and the general assumption that he tollerated certain types of crime.
There's a lot of speculation, little hard data, and even less perspective when it comes to determining what lines and stations are the most dangerous. For instance, it's been reported that the most in-station crimes occur at Times Square. Yet that shouldn't be any surprise given that it's the busiest station in the system. Now this tourist incident (which, of course, was many years ago when safety was more of a concern) occurred during a busy time at what should have been a relatively safe station.
Even so, I have heard that the less-safe lines tend to include the A and C in Brooklyn, the 2/5 and 4 in the Bronx, and both ends of the 3.
Actually, those lines (along with the L, J, M, Z) are just those which go through the poorest and most welfare-dependent neighborhoods. I guess there is a correlation. Then again, if you don't get off in the South Bronx or Brownsville/East New York, I doubt you'd have a problem. With the exception of the middle of the night, the issue is the stations.
The worst station near me is 4th Avenue on the F and 9th St on the N/R/M. Lots of twisty passages, and a rape a year.
Wasn't that incident BEFORE the police merger? Now, there are even LESS cops in the subway. And I work there, and no bureaucrat can make me believe otherwise.
Rememer the Shearton New York Towers (1,000 plus rooms) is right above this subway stop as well as another Sheraton and other hotels in the area as well!!
Greetings! I am working on a short story and need the answer to a couple of questions, the answers to which I can not find on your site.
1.) The lines which cross the Harlem River, do they cross on bridges or do they cross via tunnels;
2.) If they are tunnels, what are their names and/or designations;
Thanks,
Rick
From "NYC Transit Facts and Figures"
149th St Tunnel (2 train), opened 1905
Lexington Avenue Tunnel (4, 5), opened 1918
161 St Tunnel (B, D), opened 1933
Broadway Brige (1,9), opened 1907
Broadway Brige (1,9), opened 1907
Rebuilt, 196?
-Hank
Does anyone know the Following about the New Jersey Transit Arrow II or III, The GG-1's, The EMD GP-9, New Haven EP-5 (nickname:jet's),
Budd RDC, The P&R "Red Bullet" ,The CNS&M Electroliner and The Jewett Standard interurban car.
The Top Speed,
The Power Output,
The Maximum Tractive effort,
The Weight,
The # of powered wheel set's, and
The Traction Weight (=If all wheelsets are powered) !
Thanks. All information is greatly appriciated.
- Philip E. Dominguez
I was listening to WCBS NewsRadio 88 this afternoon and I heard a
report that there were to be 'service improvements' coming next year
(did not specify whether subway, bus or both), to be paid for with
$44,000,000 of TA funds (did not catch whether it was surplus or
additional revenue), supposedly to meet increasing service demands.
The 44-Million question is: WHAT MIGHT THESE IMPROVEMENTS BE?
Do I hear 24-7 "A" Express? 24-7 "4" Express? A better "Q" train?
Weekend service to Broad Street on the "J"?
Has anyone any inside information regarding these improvements?
Thanks,
Wayne
'Un-officially', the TA is expected to announce:
Increased express bus service to Staten Island and Brooklyn.
Express bus service to Jersey City financial district from Brooklyn and Staten Island on a trial basis.
Two new routes on Staten Island serving the Teleport area from the east shore via Rockland Avenue, New Dorp Lane and Hylan Blvd.
More non-rush trips on buses and subways. (Can't squeeze more in rush)
Peak-hour 'F' Brooklyn express (18th Avenue - Jay Street section).
New local routes in Brooklyn - 16th Avenue (B34) , one 86th Street route (B86), also extension of B67 to 18th Ave & McDonald Ave, extension of B68 to Union Street & 7th Avenue, two new express routes serving MetroTech from Bay Ridge via 3rd Avenue & Gowanus (x30) and Sheepshead Bay (x32).
Love to see new routes on Staten Island. Perhaps Bay Ridge to CSI? The so-called 's63' service?
-Hank
Here at one of the "privates" were increasing our fleet by a little over 10% (with 70 new CNG buses that will be here this Fall).
Why, many of our buses are standing room only. Obviously this was planned a while ago. The bad news is that we'll have to keep some of our fleet with over 200,000 miles on them a while longer.
Hopefully DOT will get some of that money so they can buy even more buses.
Mr t__:^)
Well, the news about the F express in Brooklyn is surely good.
I guess that means that the G will pick up the local stops after
Church Avenue. One question - what to do about the Bergen Street
station - will the lower level re-open?
I still think that weekend express on the A and weekend J service to
Broad Street should be instituted/reinstituted. How much does it
cost to staff a tower anyway?
Wayne
Staten Island Advance reports Friday, 9/18, the service increases from NYCT on Staten Island, both revious and upcoming.
For previous, the say they've added 80 new buses, and increased daily trips by 185. The entire local bus fleet is in the process of being replaced. And While they are saying nothing about increased local service on the South Shore, they are adding x17 service Saturdays, 6:30a-9:30p, every 90 minutes. Currently, there is no Saturday service on the x17. No date for startup is mentioned.
-Hank
Agreed J service should be extended to Broad St. over the weekends. The Assistant Train Disp. would be relocated from Essex St. to Broad St.(where he is M-F). Crew costs would go up as you are extending the route. Most weekday J jobs are 3 round trips, many are 4 on the weekends (working over 8 hours). So they will all have to go back to 3 (thank goodness!). As for the A, this means the C would have to go to Brooklyn on the weekend, increasing car mileage & crew costs. You would only need a towerman at Hoyt St. So with these improvements (a piece of the 44M pie perhaps) the big additional expense is motormen, conductors & car mileage.
And what we also need is direct service from the Eastern Division to midtown on weekends. That we need more than the dead Broad St area. There are enough people transferring from the F to the J and the varous lines to the L to justify it. So when the Wiliamsburg bridge work is finished next year, they should run a V from 21st St to Church or Kings Hwy on weekdays to allow the F to go express (without having to divide the headway between exp. and local, or leave the local passengers with only G service), and on weekends, it should go to Metropolitan via the outer Chrystie connection. And they should do the A express to. They were just getting ready to do the A and F express when Pataki cutthe budget. Now that there is a surplus, they should both, plus these other ideas.
Does anyone know the date/time of the annual Croton-Harmon yard open house(if they are even having it)? Any information would be appreciated.
In The Ny Times for Friday September 18, B Section Page 1, about the rapid transit becoming a oxymoron. This is about trains moving more slowly than they used to. When everyone gets a chance to read the article via the Ny Times or by the Ny Times web site, i would like to hear what you think.
Charlie Muller.
I certainly would like to have trains travel faster. Some of the lines do seem to take forever. As far as saving money on breaking time to save on were and tear:If it saves parts and down time I can't see it making enough of a difference to matter. Traveling slower to conserve energy cost is another story. Do motorists drive slower to conserve gas? I think we all would prefer getting to our destination a little faster. As far as trampling over other passengers to change to an express is concerned:I'm sure everyone has had the experience of missing a connection by only a few seconds which could have been made by taking that express.
Do I lose points for spelling? Make that "wear and tear".
Here's the New York Times article link. Note that you have to be a "subscriber" to access it; it's easy and free however through the New York Times Web Site.
You're forgiven. IMHO, locals certainly don't seem to have any problem zooming along. Often times, it's the expresses that crawl for whatever reason. Even so, that's not enough to make me want to break my addiction for express trains.
Since being clued in by subtalk, I've been looking through half-open doors at the speedometers. Haven't seen one go over 25 miles per hour yet. Let's see, cars are allowed to go 30 miles per hour, actually go 35, and stop occasionally at lights. Subways go 20 to 25 and stop occasionally at stations. Sounds like even using local streets, a driver could beat a train. That's bad.
Tell you what, Larry. Next time I'm in Manhattan, I'll meet you at 50th & 6th during rush hour. I'll get on a nice Slant R-40 [Q], and you drive. We'll see who gets to W. 4th St. first *grin*.
Then again, if we do this test at 4 a.m. from WTC to anywhere on the upper east side, you'd have time to change the oil and rotate the tires before I got there on the subway!
[Tell you what, Larry. Next time I'm in Manhattan, I'll meet you at 50th & 6th during rush hour. I'll get on a nice Slant R-40 [Q], and you drive. We'll see who gets to W. 4th St. first *grin*.]
Ya know, I think you've got this one bass-ackwards ... driving from West 4th to 50th is fine, but driving *from* 50th *to* W4th using Sixth Avenue would be a disaster :-)
Yeah, I know. But, the [Q] from 50th to W. 4th is DOWNHILL and so much faster; last time I could see a speedometer it peaked at 50 mph!! Uptown is uphill, and the trains stuggle.
I HAVE READ ABOUT HOW FAST THE METRO AND CTA IS AND HOW SLOW NYCTA IS, BUT IS PEOPLE FORGETTING ABOUT PHILLYS MARKET FRANKFORD LINE WHERE THEY DO TOP SPEED ON ABOUT 90% OF THE LINE ESPECIALLY ON THE RUSH HOURS A B TRAINS ESPECIALLY THROUGH TIOGA STATION. AND ALSO ON THE BROAD STREET SUBWAY WITH THE EXPRESSES HITTING 69 MPHS AND THE LOCALS ARE EVEN FAST TOO. PROBABLY THE BROAD STREET SUBWAY PROBABLY HAS THE FASTEST EXPRESS SERVICE IN THE COUNTRY IF NOT THE WORLD?
You should've been on the 9 that I had earlier in the week. Sitting at Van Cortlandt, it said we were doing 89. Don't believe the numbers you see on the speedometers.
Anytime a LED malfunctions, or that which displays info via a LED
malfunctions, it invariably reads "88" or something unintelligible.
I'd have paid a days wages to see an R62 do 89 MPH. :o)
Wayne
Wayne;
Yes, the DC metro does have a higher top speed on straight-aways then the CTA, but can the train go at top speed through a S Curve?
Also, the thrill of the L making noises, shaking back and fourth and passing the Old Abandoned Kostner Station which is in a curve is truely amazing, but you have to have an operator with guts. Only the Old rail systems truely have a heart! The CTA & NYC have this type of equipment, when it operates at top speeds, the trains "shake, rattle, and roll".
I do admit though, I do like to ride the Orange line which is quiet, fast, and quite a contrast to the other CTA Lines.
It is cool that one system contains rail lines from over 100 years of age to not even 10 years of age. The equipment isn't that old on the older lines though, only up to 30 years old.
BJ
There's an "S" curve just south of National Airport station - the
northbound Blue Line (Metro) train I was on entered the first half
at nearly 50 and only slowed to 42 during the second half. Then again
this "S" curve is no doubt a lot broader than the ones in Chicago.
Plus the elevated structure appeared to be ever-so-slightly banked.
My one trip to Chicago in 1991 was a joy - rode on the Ravenswood
line plus the Congress-Douglas line and the Howard (Red) line as
far south as 47th St. I think the trains were Kawasakis, car numbers
in the 2500-2600-2700 range. Some of those "L" curves are VERRRRY
tight!
I do think that DC is slightly 'denatured' - trains and stations are
basically all the same - to give a system character, you have to have
all of the sensory experiences you describe. The IRT Redbird I was
on this afternoon (R33 #8916) certainly provided many of the above
"shakes, rattles and rolls", not to mention many "squeals of delight".
Wayne
CTA's 2400-series cars were built by Boeing-Vertol; the 2600s (and 2200s) by Budd. It's possible the new 3200s were built by Kawasaki. Granted, CTA L trains can hit fast speeds. I remember seeing a Blue line train reach 65 while running along the median of the Kennedy Expressway. However, OPTO can cancel any time savings owing to the longer dwell time at each station. My aunt says it takes 10-15 minutes longer to get from Bryn Mawr on the Red line to the Loop with OPTO.
This was definitely a speedometer malfunction. Once we started moving the display did change in reverse of the way we were going, ie 89 = 0 and the faster we went, the lower the readout.
I was on the number 4 train and it peaked at 55 going u town between 86th and 125st. I was on the KAW. train. the BOM. cars are slow very slow. I prefer to be on a red bird than a BOM. 4. Also what I think to be the second fastest spot on the system is on the A line. I think but i was on the R-110B though and that train hit about 61. So the R44's R32's trains go about 45-50mph in that section of the line wich is the tunnel between Man. and Brooklyn . Also on the R is another sectoin is very fast too. It's the part between Man. and Queen.
Where did the R-110Bs hit 61? Let me guess - either in the Cranberry St. tunnel or every A train buff's favorite nonstop stretch along CPW at 81st St.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if the R-10s hit 60 at some point. The first time I rode them on the Rockaway line, they were positively flying.
I haven't been in NYC in a few years, but that sucks if the train speeds peak at 30, it really sucks!
Here the CTA did eliminate A & B service a few years ago, but CTA Trains travel at peak speeds between almost all of the stations except for the loop (35-mph max),curves, and some strenches where stations are very close together.
The Orange Line is a great example and so is the Blue Line from Forest Park to Ohare.
I was ridding home on last Sunday on the Blue Line out of downtown to Forest Park and we went full speed between EVERY Station.
We even we going full speed throught the Kostner S curve which the expressway and the L tracks do.
I forgot to add to the last message, It really depends on the guts of the train driver how fast the train goes.
Male drivers tend to travel allot faster then Female Drivers on the CTA
CTA may be respectably rapid transit - but my experiences on the
Washington DC Metro - now that's RAPID transit. One Blue Line train
took a sharp curve near National Airport station at about 43 MPH;
a Green Line shuttle in suburban Maryland went through its serpentine
curves averaging 44.7 MPH (I watched then did the math) PLUS it did 77 in its little straightaway tunnel before shooting out into the open
and rounding a 90-degree banked turn at about 48. (it DID decelerate-
station was right around the bend.)
The Metro is a fun system if you like speed.
I get disgusted every time I ride an A train and it does the 59th St-125th St run at 25 MPH.
Perhaps NYCT's slowdown is a knee-jerk reaction to the recent spate
of accidents. I think they should allow speed where the line is built
for it - i.e. the IND 8th Ave/Queens lines.
Wayne
DC has the luxury of a new road be and current engineering. A systetm like the CTA with turn or the century structure is remarkable in how well the funciton. It is a tribute to the city and the staff that keeps it running, even when the RTA is trying to bleed them dry by taking finding out of the city for the suburbs.
DC has the luxury of a new road be and current engineering. A systetm like the CTA with turn or the century structure is remarkable in how well the funciton. It is a tribute to the city and the staff that keeps it running, even when the RTA is trying to bleed them dry by taking funding out of the city for the suburbs.
How many of those A trains are R-44s? The R-38s aren't that slow - at least I hope not.
I think you're right - it seems as if the TA is overreacting to the recent spate of accidents.
One particularly annoying ride on a slow A occurred on June 20 of this year.
The train was an R44, with #5210-11-13-12 as the first bunch.
We were pretty respectable as far south as 145th Street, then it was
a crawl. We went about 15 through the minefield (where #5282 crashed)
near 135th Street, then, once we passed 125th Street, we never exceeded what I estimate to be 25 MPH. A C whizzed by; it was an R38. We slowed to
about 10-15 after 72nd Street. I was not the only passenger annoyed
by this slow boat - others on the train were heard to complain to
each other out loud. By the time we reached 59th Street, the C was gone!
I realize that we very well may have been victim of a D ahead of us, I was riding in #5211,
the second car, and couldn't see what was ahead. I have ridden
the same stretch (207th Street south) - every single time EXCEPT ONCE
I have been on an R44 it was slow slow slow; every time I got an R38,
we did better. One R38 run (April 18, 1998, car #4099) was delayed
by track work at 125th Street, forcing us to the local track where
we crawled along no better than 15.
I really wish they'd let the express train do its job instead of
letting lowly locals leave it in the lurch (pun on "L"s intended)
Wayne
Thankfully, the R-10s didn't crawl along that stretch. At least none of the A trains I ever rode back then crawled. That would have been unthinkable. Now, uptown at 23rd St. was another story.
Nowadays, unless I'm pressed for time, I wait for an A train of R-38s. They're quicker, plus you get a nice view out the front window. I rode a downtown A of R-38s a few years back from 125th to 59th, and it really moved until we got to 72nd. You would have thought the cars were R-10s. It didn't hurt to have a nice clear track, either.
And, yes, it is annoying to be on a slowpoke of an express only to have locals zooming past your train. I think the signals on the local tracks are timed for speed just to keep trains moving along. Still, I won't take a local unless I absolutely have to.
In Toronto, the TTC has decided to test what it calls "high rate train operation." This seems to mean faster excelleration.
High rate operation will be tested to analyze the cost difference from fewer faster trains with higher maintenance costs over the status quo.
Unfortunately this test will not occur until 2002 when the older cars (M1, H1, H2 and H4) have been replaced by new T1s and the H5 and H6 cars have been rebuilt.
This is a bit of a surprising move considering the TTC has slowed trains down since the (fatal) collision of a couple years ago when one train rear ended another.
Also, many of the downtown stations are so close together that it is hard to believe that "high rate train operation" will save any noticable amount of time.
The entire memo where this plan is announced is on the TTC website under reports. Go to click on "acknowlege"then "reports" and then choose the item called "replacement subway cars."
BTW - the same report mentions that the Yonge line uses 46 trains in the afternoon rush. Not bad for a line with 32 stations.
sorry the TTC website where reports can be acccessed is:
http://www.ttc.on.ca/gso-comrpt
The article just confirms my belief about where the T.A. philosophy is. IMHO the cars should not have been modified for slower speed, but the signal block distances should have been doubled in areas where signals are close to each other (WillyB e.g.). If this were the case, when that J train got tripped, a signal farther way would have tripped the train, thereby giving it more distance to make its' emergency stop with the possibility of the collision being avoided. As far as less wear & tear, give me a break, maintance is part of the cost of doing business to get the pasengers there as quickly & safely as possible. Sometimes we all use the word "safety' as an excuse or cop out to justify something to get our own way. There is a certain amount of risk in this business. How many passengers who jumped or fell to the tracks could of had their lives saved with a quicker emergency brake application response? To avoid this threat to life are we going to order all trains to enter stations at 10 M.P.H. Well, the TA does say "Safety" is the #1 priority. A ridiculous statement, since as the article states, who ISN'T going to make safety the #1 priority?
Today I received the Sept/Oct '98 issue of "Mass Transit". On the cover is Shirley DeLibero, Exce Dir of NJT, holding on for dear life to the front railing of a low nose diesel, #4130. I'll leave it to others to ID the mfg/model. The title is "Light Rail Project ... Hudson-Bergen ..." It's a large article & seems to contain meat vs. fluff.
Copywrite acknowledgement: I've mentioned the paper by name & quoted less than 400 words.
Mr t__:^)
To Thurston:
Would you please post the subscription address for Mass Transit magazine. I haven't been able to find a web site for them.
Thanks.
Paul
Mass Transit:
FAX = 920-563-1704
Snail-mail = Attn Circulation Dept - PO Box 450 - Ft Atkinson, WI
53538-0450
Year at $48, unless you're in the industry, then free
Interesting side bar:
I found this article rather informative, as was one on Metro MoW equip. The latter reminded me of a "Trains" or other model RxR magazine type article, incl. the ID of the photoed equip.
The publishers must think we all read these things or want us to, anyhow I enjoyed it.
Mr t__:^)
I was exploring the MTA site and at the MTA Staten Island Railway it says you can swipe a transfer to ride the SIR. Is this true?? or are they just collecting the transfer at a service gate?
http://www.lirr.org/nyct/sir/sirfare.htm
All customers boarding at St. George Terminal must use MetroCard or a magnetic-stripe transfer received on
their local bus, or a New York City Transit token in the turnstile, or present a valid special-fare ticket for
collection.
All Manhattan-bound customers arriving in St. George must swipe a MetroCard or a magnetic-stripe transfer
received on their local bus, or deposit a New York City Transit token in the turnstile, or present a valid
special-fare ticket for collection.
Now that is very interesting, at least to me.
Magnetic Transfers are issued on any city bus (TA & DOT-private) if you pay cash & ask for it. Now nothing in the Farebox operation prevents the driver form issuing a Transfer even if you aren't paying cash, they're just not suppose to do it. This allows the "privates" to issue a Transfer for those MetroCard customers that are transfering from one of our Express buses to another (Note: most "Express" Fare-sets prevent the issuance of a Transfer, so don't ask the TA Express driver for one). The Transfer ONLY allows you to board another BUS & NOT in the same direction.
So that's what's interesting to me. Does "the wheel" turn on SI when you swipe a Transfer in the Turnstile ?
Anybody in Staten Island got your ears on ???????
Mr t__:^)
SIR turnstiles accept paper transfers from Staten Island local buses only. The transfer system was initiated in 1995, and when they switched to the mag stripes, all but the Brooklyn-bound s79 and s53 and SIR moved to them. (the others still issued paper)
The SIR is a major part of the N-S transit network out here, and parrallels Amboyu and Richmond Rds for most of its trip down the South Shore.
You can get an SIR mag-sttrip transfer at St. George, they have 2 bus fareboxes in the token booth to issue them.
-Hank
Now that is dam interesting !
Sometimes we get this "do as I say not as I do" attitude from the TA, were they won't say or deny it. I love it when I can rub their nose in it !
Recently they were beating us up (at the "privates") for not changing all the gear boxes on the Farebox (some were mfg with a extra tooth, it screwed up the Travel Cards (discontinued 7/1/98) & MetroCards to some extent too). Well, they were sure embarresed when I found two TA buses that still had the problem.
So thank you very much for the info. I'll file this away for now.
Mr t__:^)
At 4:45am this morning (Friday 9/18/98) a 125 car Conrail freight derailed on MetroNorth's Hudson Division (ex-NYC Mainline). The derailment occured just below Yankee Stadium at River Street Overpass, and just before the Harlem and New Haven Interchanges. No injury's to the two man crew.
The train was carring trash, double stacked (not full size) containers that may have hit an overpass causing the derailment. A small fire quickly put out by NYFD when refuse came in contact with the thrid rail.
Hudson Division service will terminate at Marble Hill station where passaengers can transfer to the 1/9 subway trains (All Hudson Div trains turned south of Marble Hill). Hudson Div tickets will be honored on Harlem/New Haven lines.
Service briefly halted on the Harlem/New Haven lines as the remaining frieght cars were placed on a track awaiting a rescue engine and were removed at approx 7:30am.
No word on the PM Rush as of yet.
BTW Grand Central Terminal will be rededicated Oct 1st and 2nd.
This is the reason not everyone agrees that an increase in rail freight on the LIRR is a good idea. A little accident, and there goes the rush hour.
Are the Conrail trains now being operated by CSX or Norfolk Southern? If so, that might account for this incident - a crew not used to the line might not have known about the vertical clearance issue.
The train was operated by a Conrail crew. "Day 1" is not yet a fact, due to the Surf Board's cautions after the UP/SP debacle.
Last night a spokesman for Conrail on the local news admitted fault, and that those cars were even on the WRONG TRAIN. Apparently, they were bound for NJ, someplace. Addtionally, they were empty containers. I have an idea of where in Jersey they were supposed to go, but don't hold me to it.
-Hank
Just east of Jamaica station, on the north side of the LIRR tracks, there are the broken remnants of what was once obviously some kind of
concrete platform. There isn't much left there, but one can clearly see that there were once stairs on the eastern end of the platform.
Does anyone know what LIRR station this was, and how long ago it was that it was demolished?
From Jamaica east, on the Main Line:
Union Hall Street (nearly all gone; the one you're referring to)
Hillside (it was under the incline for the St. Albans-Babylon branch, just west of the new Hillside Facility Station)
Hollis (active)
Bellaire (gone)
Queens Village (active) et. al.
Thanks for the info, Todd...I had always wondered about that.
Do you have any idea how long it has been abandoned, and why it was abandoned in the first place?
Union Hall St. has been abandoned since the 70's I believe. Why it was originally abandoned, I can only guess -- lack of use. Now, there's the Parsons/Archer subway stop just around the corner.
[Union Hall St. has been abandoned since the 70's I believe. Why it was originally abandoned, I can only guess -- lack of use. Now, there's the Parsons/Archer subway stop just around the corner.]
I wonder whether trains stopping at Union Hall interfered with rush hour train movements through Jamaica - the stations are that close.
Speaking of abandoned stations, I wouldn't be completely surprised if Hollis got the ax sometime soon. It doesn't seem to do much business, once again mostly likely because of its closeness to Jamaica. And its platforms seem to be getting fairly decrepit. I suppose the fact that it's an unstaffed station and therefore inexpensive to keep open might be why it hasn't been closed so far.
If I remember correctly, Union Hall Street was discontinued for lack of use. The platforms were fairly decrepit even while the station was still active. The station (like Queens Village and Hollis) only served Hempstead branch trains, so my guess is that the location was just far enough east of the switching which split Main Line, Babylon and Hempstead trains.
Regarding Hollis, it has been about 10 years, but I used to do a lot of travel on weekends from Flatbush Avenue. If my train was a Hempstead train, Hollis was by far the most requested stop for those purchasing tickets on the train.
Looking at the Hempstead Branch schedule, though, Hollis seems to be skipped frequently during the rush hour. I had always assumed that this was because frequent and less expensive alternate transit was available during rush hour, but that off-peak LIRR travel was so much faster than subway/bus connections that it was worth the extra cost.
Wasn't Hollis at one point abandoned, then reinstated? Or am I thinking of another station?
Re: Union Hall Street
Though the station was abandoned probably in the early 70's, a dot showed on the timetable map for sometime afterwards. Same goes for Woodhaven on the City Terminal Zone timetable.
Re: Springfield Gardens
Why was the station so completely obliterated (considering it was a much more recent abandonment than UHSt)? This seems to be a policy with Metro-North as well (Mt. St. Vincent has been obliterated too, and it was also relatively recent). Does that mean Richmond Hill is about to get the ax (or jackhammer, as it may be) as well?
I have the feeling that the LIRR has had a policy, for a number of years now, to serve the East end of LI, i.e. the trains from there are packed & they want to cut the travel time AND avoid delays, so if you cut the close in, little used, stations ... both goals are achieved.
This gets back to previous threads about extending subway service in Nassau, or at least to the border. The center island line, that serves Hollis, has lots of tracks, it would seem they could give a couple to the subway system. Same goes for south shore branch where two routes split at Jamaica & rejoin at Rosedale (city line).
Mr t__:^)
Re the LIRR's practice of obliterating closed stations (Springfield Gardens, Hillside): A more recent example can be seen - or not seen, to be precise!- at Medford. Several months ago the old low-level platform was closed and a new high-level one opened just to the west. The old platform was on the top of an embankment, reached by a flight of stairs. No sooner was the new platform opened than the old one was jackhammered up and its site covered with gravel. Today no trace whatsoever remains, except for some newer-looking gravel.
Maybe they want to obliterate all signs of a station once it's closed so that trespassers, especially children, are less likely to go there and 1) throw rocks at the trains or otherwise vandalize the railway, or 2) get injured and sue the railway (yes, they would most likely lose, but they'd probably get a small settlement for nuisance value, which though not a lot of money is more than they deserve = $0).
Here in Chicago, I can think of a few abandoned Metra stations on embankments, and while the platforms were removed, the stairs were not (but they are chained off) and you sometimes see kids on the tracks.
The other day, a couple of brats threw rocks at the Metra train I was on (on at-grade ROW, though), and I was probably the only one to see it -- I was in the last car in the vestibule, standing right by the door because my station was coming up, and the rocks hit below the window line. When I told the trainman, who had just been in the half of the car where the stone hit, he said "What am I supposed to do, stop the train?" I said "Of course not, but there is such a thing as radio." He had no radio on him, though. He told me that the engineer had probably seen the rock-throwing (fat chance -- they didn't even pick up a stone until the second-to-last car was in front of them) and would report them by radio to the Metra Police. However, I think he was just trying to BS me and didn't take the rock-throwing seriously. Why would a trainman not take a rock-throwing seriously?
[The other day, a couple of brats threw rocks at the Metra train I was on ... When I told the trainman, who had just been in the half of the car where the stone hit, he said "What am I supposed to do, stop the train?" I said "Of course not, but there is such a thing as radio." He had no radio on him, though. He told me that the engineer had probably seen the rock-throwing (fat chance -- they didn't even pick up a stone until the second-to-last car was in front of them) and would report them by radio to the Metra Police. However, I think he was just trying to BS me and didn't take the rock-throwing seriously. Why
would a trainman not take a rock-throwing seriously?]
That story doesn't surpise me in the least. Three times in the last couple of months rocks have been thrown at the LIRR Greenport shuttle a couple miles east of Ronkonkoma. All three incidents have happened at the same approximate location, as the shuttle passes by just before 7 pm. Two and maybe all three (I can't remember about the first one) have happened on Friday evenings.
I have yet to figure out why the LIRR police don't try staking out the location. Could it be that they're too busy ticketing motorists who try to drive around crossing gates? After all, there's no revenue to be gained by catching rock throwers ... while the fines for errant motorists undoubtedly are a cash cow, so to speak.
They're probally waiting for someone in the train to get hurt, then there'll be a big campain, roll the video tape, news at 11.
It's too bad that's what it will probally take.
Mr t__:^)
I agree. It doesn't surprise me that railway police would concentrate more on gate runners, not just because they bring in more revenue, but because the likelihood of serious injury or death is a lot more likely, or at least a lot more obvious, with the gaterunner than the rock-thrower. As the trainman said when I complained about the rock-throwing, "That's why the trains have FRA-required tempered windows."
[Maybe they want to obliterate all signs of a station once it's closed so that trespassers,
especially children, are less likely to go there and 1) throw rocks at the trains or otherwise vandalize the railway, or 2) get injured and sue the railway ...]
That indeed might account for the varying conditions of the abandoned LIRR stations. Springfield Gardens, for example, is located in a densely populated, low-income area. It's not hard to imagine that an abandoned platform (especially with stairs) would be a magnet for children and trespassers. In contrast, the Republic station still has stairways leading up from Route 110 to the platform remnants. Here the trespassing risk is probably less, as the station's located in a commercial/industrial area with little if any pedestrian traffic and few nearby residences.
[From Jamaica east, on the Main Line:
Union Hall Street (nearly all gone; the one you're referring to)
Hillside (it was under the incline for the St. Albans-Babylon branch, just west of the new Hillside Facility Station)
Hollis (active)
Bellaire (gone)
Queens Village (active) et. al.]
Union Halll is by far the best preserved of the three abandoned stations. Quite a bit of the platform still remains on the north side; there's even a battered old trash receptacle on the platform. Bellaire is less well preserved. All that remains are the ends of each platform, apparently where the stairs from the streets below were located. Almost all traces of the former Hillside station are gone. About all I've been able to see are bits of the support beams. But the award for the most completely obliterated station in eastern Queens has to be Springfield Gardens, on the Babylon line past St. Albans (speaking of St. Albans, quite of bit of its platform has been abandoned). The only remaining trace of Springfield Gardens, visible only from the front window of an eastbound train, is a rusted train-stop indicator sign that reads "8 MU" (it might be "6 MU," it's been a while since I've seen it. The space between the eastbound and westbound tracks widens, apparently the location of the former island platform.
Mr. Mark S. Feinman - Hi Mark! I had a small accident with the tape I just bought from you. Could I buy another? Please E-Mail me at
"jangreen@chesco.com" so we can set something up.
Keep up the great work!
Chuck Greene
Has anyone seen the new Hi Wheels that are being installed around the system? They are great for two or more people to get into the system on one fare. Did anyone really check thease things for size?
sounds illegal but none the less possible watch out for those undercover cops looking for fare evaders..
Does anyone know why the Transit Museum has canceled their tours of City Hall Station, and their Day One On The IRT tour?
I got a letter from them today. Due to Security concerns around City Hall, the Mayors Office had requested that they cancel all tours in and around the city hall area. This includes the day one tour and the first Wednesday beneath City Hall tour, Refunds will be given if paid. If charge no charge wuill be made. other tours will continue.
Security concerns?!?!!? I'm not doubting that that IS the reason, but someone at City Hall or NYPD must have watched "Taking of Pelham 1-2-3" one too many times!
If someone was going to bomb City Hall, it would be much easier to do by truck, say, UPS, Postal Service, or another express or delivery company whose trucks go everywhere and are often seen idling in front of buildings. How would you get enough explosives to do the job into the subway with a tour group, anyway?
And if what they are worried about is some sort of attack or raid, commando-style, it would be almost as easy to come in the front door, guns blazing, as it would be to come up from the subway.
Maybe Rudy-Rude fears a contingent of angry former New York porno shop owners taking the subway.
Today, an abandoned subway station. Tomorrow, Coney Island(well, I wouldn't be surprised if he did).
> Security concerns?!?!!? I'm not doubting that that IS the reason,
> but someone at City Hall or NYPD must have watched "Taking of Pelham
> 1-2-3" one too many times!
Well, the "remake" WAS downright scary to watch ... :)
--Mark
I sat and suffered through that awful remake, gathering only two
tidbits of information: 1) It looks like Toronto uses 75 foot cars
2) They did a terrible job of making it look like NYC.
BTW that was Toronto car 5482, the lowest number of R46 equivalent
here in NYC.
The movie itself was, for lack of a better civil word, POOR.
Wayne
You are so correct! There is nothing like the original "Pelham 123".
It was an actual subway train running on real trackage (or it made you think so). The second film had that Toronto car which couldn't even
display the 6 Lex-Pelham sign. Boo- poor job indeed. Even the acting was terrible. I always watch the old one , in fact I taped it for prosterity.
The consensus opinion of just about all of us Subtalkers was that the remake, in a word, sucked. This was a textbook case of a halfhearted attempt to improve on an original, with disastrous results. The actors were clearly just going through the motions, and using the Toronto subway for a set - give me a break! No offense to Toronto, but who were they trying to kid? The only positive out of that pathetic excuse for a remake was that they did portray the rigging of the controller for the getaway sequence as it was written in the novel.
BTW, the original is available on video; in fact, that was the first movie video I bought after buying my first VCR. The version shown on TV is watered down a bit; they had to delete all the four-letter words uttered by Dick O'Neil.
P. S. I have another theory as to why Court St. wasn't used in the 28th St. scenes in the original: the platform in the movie has fluorescent lighting, while Court St. has its original incandescent lighting. I still suspect they used the lower level at 42nd St.
I suggested to the producers that they rename the movie "The Taking of Bloor-Danforth 5-6-7" but they wouldn't give me the right time of day :)
--Mark
"The consensus opinion of just about all of us Subtalkers was that the
remake, in a word, sucked. This was a textbook case of a halfhearted
attempt to improve on an original, with disastrous results."
Or was it just a cheap rip off?
It's the same thing as a heavy-metal band trying to play a Beethoven symphony - I know; a band I was in actually tried it. Why they ever
did this remake, I will never know.
Bottom line is: DON'T MESS WITH A CLASSIC.
Wayne
Which Beethoven symphony did your band attempt? The Fifth, perhaps? I'm a timpanist myself, and could play Beethoven all day long without getting bored. As fas as composers go, he's my favorite. Classical remains my first love when it comes to music. I was a music major at UConn, BTW. That explains why those moaning and groaning traction motors on the R-1/9s and other prewar equipment are music to my ears.
As a matter of fact - it WAS the Fifth - BUT it was the ten-minute
Second Movement! That's a pretty heavy piece of music (but not
as heavy as the First Movement). I didn't have the chops to tackle
those guitar arpeggios that the First Movement would have demanded.
And as for the segue between the Third and Fourth movements -
Fuggeddabouttit! For that you need Yngwie J. Malmsteen.
Wayne :o)
As Quick Draw McGraw used to say, "Hold on thare!" That bridge section between the third and fourth movements is where I get to strut my stuff, playing the rhythmic motive for the entire third movement beneath the pedal points. And you're right about the first movement - there are some heavy licks.
BTW, did you know that Beethoven wrote 14 different versions of the melody which opens the second movement of the Fifth?
Let's put this thread to rest, shall we?
The 1974 version of The Taking of Pelham One Two Three is one of the best films of the early to mid 1970s. The location shots (although not always accurate, but still NYC), the acting, Peter Stone's screenplay (adapted from the novel), the cinematography, and last but not least David Shire's wonderful multifaceted score (recently released on CD) makes for a total package that really evokes time, place, and mood as well as being an entertaining film. Sure there are some flaws in the film, like the 72 foot IRT cars (a hold over from the book), and the fact that it would make more sense to transport the money on the motorcycles instead of a large Plymouth, yet these little things sort of make the film endearing to many people.
I haven't watched the TV version the whole way through (I gave up after 15 minutes), so I can't really make a one on one comparison.
However from what I did see they didn't do that good of a job of simulating New York with Toronto.
Anyhow I wonder why they messed with a classic film.
Are the people out in Hollywood not able to come up with any new ideas?
They NEVER do a creditable job of simulating New York with Toronto!
Let us face it - Toronto is Toronto and New York is New York.
I would suspect that to the masses a subway is a subway, but to those
who can tell the difference, it is VERY ANNOYING.
Maybe you know the answer to this - the 28th Street scene - was that
shot at Court Street or 42nd Street Lower Level?
Wayne
I'd have to say they used the 42nd St. lower level, since Court St. has incandescent lighting and the platform in the movie has fluorescent lighting. Even so, the train would have wrong-railed into the station, given the layout of the lower level. They did use Court St. for other scenes, though.
I watched the newer version of Pelham in school with a bunch of my roomates, not knowing it was a remake. I thought it was just a standard made-for-tv deals and really didn't expect to much in terms of reality from it. I thought given its genre type, it wasn't so bad.
But then again, I have never seen the original.
-JB (Owner of Airport and Airport '75)
I was in Toronto a few years ago, just minding my own business while walking up Yonge Street, when what do you think I saw off to my right? You guessed it -- a street set up as a movie set to look like NYC! They were using a bus with Ontario tags (it might have a New Flyer, but it was a few years ago and I was a little preoccupied), a bunch of fake NYC Taxis, and there were a few cars in the "traffic jam" that are almost NEVER seen in the USA, let alone NYC, like a Hyundai Pony, a Pontiac Laurentian, and a "Police Car" that looked like a Plymouth Gran Fury or Dodge Diplomat, but was called a Plymouth Caravelle! (The Caravelle name was used for a K-car clone by ChryCo in the States -- never for a full-sized car) The whole thing was a little creepy, but I wan't fooled for a moment!
Well, as with so many things these days, it get expensive using the real thing:)
Chicago's a lot more friendly to the television/movie companies filming than NYC is. When they were making "U.S. Marshals," they used a two-block stretch of Jackson Boulevard in front of the Board of Trade. They put fake plaques marked "New York Board of Trade" (?!) pasted over the "Chicago Board of Trade" plaques, "Wall Street" street signs covering the Jackson Blvd. signs, and replaced Chicago-style "no-parking" signs with NYC-style signs. They had a convincing-looking NYCTA bus on one corner, and had a set of cars and taxis with NY and NJ plates that would proceed past the camera and then back up (Jackson's a one-way, and that's how they shot it for the movie, too).
The funny thing to me was that they had built a mockup of a subway entrance about a block in the distance (in the direction from which the cars and cabs were coming), so presumably the scene went that far in the background, but passing right over the faux entrance was the real Wells Street L! I presume they "erased" the L from the film with a computer.
I guess part of the problem stems from the fact that the NYC subway,
at least the lines in Manhattan, are constantly full of passengers,
night AND day, so it's got to be tough to do an "on-site" shoot.
It has been done, but out-of-the-way locations susbtitute for
what pass for "midtown" (i.e. The Cowboy Way, Original Pelham, Ghost -
although THAT one used the abandoned lower level at 42nd St-8th Avenue.) Still, it's New York.
P.S. I love watching E.R. and seeing the live shots on the CTA lines.
Last cars seen: 3418, 3443, 3486. One day I will revisit the Windy City, and I'll bring my camera with me. Lotsa curves, YOU BET!
Wayne
I love how "ER" and other movies and shows set in Chicago use the Chicago/Franklin (Brown/Purple) L station as their "universal L station," mainly because the sign says "CHICAGO" and secondly because the station is on a bend in the line so the trains SQUEEEEEEEL as they enter the station. They wouldn't use Chicago/State (Red) or Chicago/Ogden/Milwaukee (Blue) because they are subway stations, and they want an L station for ambiance.
(On that point, I once, while coming home from the airport on the Blue Line, ran into a group of business travelers. One of them was somewhat of a rail-fan who told his fellow businessmen that the line we were riding on, as with all the Chicago rapid transit, would be strictly L because you can't build a subway in Chicago soil [true at one point, but they figured out how to do it in 1940]! Unfortunately, I had to get off before downtown, but I would have loved to be there when their train went underground and there would have been "some explaining to do.")
The funny thing to a Chicagoan is that movie and TV people use Chicago/Franklin regardless of the proximity of that station to where the action of the movie of show is set. Don't get me started on the "ER Mis-Geography of Chicago!"
My aunt was under the same impression: that building a tunnel in Chicago would be difficult, if not impossible, because of geology, while New York, specifically Manhattan, would be a piece of cake since most of it sits on solid rock. I explained to her that tunnels can be bored through just about anything, although it's easier to bore through some materials than others. Chicago's subway tunnels are 45 feet below street surface; at that depth, you have a layer of blue clay which has the consistency of cheese. It's fairly firm, and is not too difficult to bore through.
It seems as though Toronto has become very popular as a backdrop for filmmakers. Most, if not all of the Police Academy movies were filmed there; you can even see streetcar tracks in some of the scenes. Then there's the Judge Reinhold (sp) comedy in which his kids think he and his wife are divorcing - I can't remember the title at the moment. The movie is set in Chicago, and many scenes were filmed there. However, there are a few scenes in which streetcar tracks are plainly visible. Now, Chicago hasn't had streetcars since the last ones came off in 1958. Guess where those scenes were shot - why, Toronto, of course!
It's the same old story: filmmakers and directors figure the average Joe Moviegoer won't know the difference or won't care.
Another "Joe TVwatcher" won't know the difference... was the recent Sci-Fi series "Robocop - the Series". The Robocop movies were set in Detroit (right after the turn of the century), so the TV was too. I was neat to watch Robo driving down an "Old Detroit" street as a CLRV goes by in the other direction, followed by a view out the windshield of Robo's car right down the track, complete with trolley wire as he approaches a stopped CLRV.
"Joe TVwatcher" didn't know from his beer, but those of us who know about CLRV's and where they live sure did.
I know that film makers modify TTC subway cars to look like MTA cars. TTC also has an abandoned lower bay station. Trains occasionally pass thorugh it but the don't stop
It doesn't matter! No matter how you slice it you can't make one of those Toronto cars look like an IRT car! It just doesn't fly.
The only station I have seen in the NYC area that even remotely resembles a Toronto station is Exchange Place, on the PATH.
Wayne
I was looking forward to a great remake, but the new version SUCKS. They had to get genetically correct by having a female conductor. They had to be sensational by having little boys behind scared out of their wits. The guy who wrote the book never had anything like this in mind. My son was rather troubled by the remake. The remake had no humor whatsoever. Someday, my son will see the REAL version.
Agreed - DOUBLE PHOOEY! Not only did I read the book, but I have seen
the original movie so many times (I own a copy)...nothing in the remake can hold even a tiny candle to the original.
I wonder what ever became of #7339 - the ORIGINAL Pelham 1-2-3.
Probably it got scrapped with all the other poor old R22s.
The French Connection cars are still going - #6609 is in the museum
and #4572 was last spotted on Sept 19 plying the J.
According to tours in the Transit Musuem, the World's Fair IRT car in the musuem is Pelham.
That leaves me scratching my poor old head - how could they turn
an R22 into an R33 then call it an R33? The Worlds Fair car in the
museum is #9306 - the first one delivered. The car in which most
of the hostage scenes were shot for Pelham 1-2-3 is all R22 - three
square windows, square dropdown window at the front end, triangular
straps on stems...all R22 furnishings. An R33 would have had
picture windows, true triangular straps and a solid front end window.
Not sure who's zoomin' who here (meaning the tour guides). Maybe we could clear this up Wed. with a quick stop at the Museum.
BTW I am leaning towards the 6:43AM Wed. - not a true 'express' but
gets into Jama at 7:26 - plenty of time for a dip in the "L".
Thanks again,
Wayne
Another point about the original "real" Pelham: every car in that movie is sporting the silver and blue scheme and is immaculate - no graffiti. An R-17 is seen briefly in the first subway scene when Longman/Mr Green (Martin Balsam) reaches the local platform at 59th St. It's the last car of the train which is pulling out of the station - didn't catch the number.
I also disagree with the Museum's claim that R-33 #9306 is in the movie - it isn't, plain and simple. I don't believe it was ever repainted. For that matter, not all WF R-36s were repainted silver and blue. They were passed over during the first wave of repainting in 1970-71; some still had their original white-and-teal colors into the 80s when someone came up with the brilliant idea of painting the cars white as a graffiti prevention measure.
Anyway, the doors on the car used in the hostage scenes are R-22 doors with no rubber inserts around the windows on the inside. However, I suspect they did some number-swapping on a few cars during filming. Exhibit A: if you look closely at the last car of the train pulling out of "28th St." after Mr. Green takes over the controls, you'll see a number 9339, NOT 7339. Very cute: an R-36 number on what is obviously an R-22. Exhibit B: as Pelham 1-2-3 pulls into "28th St.", the "Brooklyn Bridge" marking on the end bulkhead of car 7339 has wide lettering. Later, as runaway car 7339 hits the tripper in the "South Ferry loop" and comes to a screeching halt, the Brooklyn Bridge sign on its destination roller curtain has much narrower lettering. Perhaps that car had different destination roller curtains on each end. At least both cars, if they were in fact different, are R-22s.
BTW, I always liked Jerry Stiller's portrayal of Rico Patrone. I think they created that character for the movie after they signed Stiller, as there is no Lieutenent Patrone in the novel (Garber is the operations lieutenent in the novel). He manages to inject some humor into what is otherwise a dramatic role, thus showing his true colors as a comic actor. I thought his "They're going to fly the train to Cuba" was particularly cute. Then there was his "We had a bomb scare in the Bronx yesterday, but it turned out to be a cantaloupe."
I'm not so sure I understand this message. The 9306 in the transit Museum is THE 9306 which was in the Labor Day Parade down Fifth Ave. Photos elsewhere in this site. If you look into Corona Yard from the ramp at Willets Point leading down to Flushing Meadow Park (and Shea Stadium Station on the LIRR), you will see another 9306 by the car wash. This is actually a deactivated- renumbered R21 or R22 used for storage of materiel in the yard
Maybe THAT'S where #7339 went!
Wasn't there another R22 in the movie - 7400 series car (7456? 7424?)
Don't feel like pulling the movie out and looking for it...
Wayne
poor old mayor got a death threat,
be patient folks we only have a
couple more years of him.
I don't know what your stupid poem hints at - but watch your step, buddy.
Rudy Giuliani is perhaps the greatest Mayor this city has ever had.Crime is way down,budget deficits are a thing of the past.I agree with Ben.
To each his own. IMHO, Rudy is a control freak. He just ran the man who heads the Grand Central Partnership out the door. Because the man was too good at revitalization. He ran Bill Bratton out of town because Bill was a take charge guy & was IN CHARGE of the Police Dept. Howard (where is his police experience?) Safir is a yes man who stays in the background. I don't know about you but I know who is the REAL Police Commissioner in this town & it ain't Howard! He ran Ramon Cortines out of The Board of Ed because Rudy just didn't like him. How better is Rudy Crew? The token black in the administration who has the same first name. He didn't want two Hispanics in the administration, because he has Herman Badillo as his token Hispanic! So he got rid of Cortines! He wants to get rid of the City Council. Sure, so he can rule without another branch of government watching him so he can be like a dictator! Have you seen Melissa Russo's reports when she was at NY1 on the shelters? Nothing but lies out of City Hall. And she had the video to prove it! The president of the US doesn't advocate eliminating Congress-the local equivalent. I don't give him any credit for reducing crime: the seeds were planted by Bill Bratton. Maybe crime is down, but there are fewer cops than ever before. That will change as the bad guys get wind of it. As for budget deficits: that was done on the backs & families of City Workers who get paltry raises or none at all recently.
poor old mayor got a death threat,
be patient folks we only have a
couple more years of him.
I don't know what your stupid poem hints at - but watch your step, buddy.
Rudy Giuliani is perhaps the greatest Mayor this city has ever had.Crime is way down,budget deficits are a thing of the past.I agree with Ben.
To each his own. IMHO, Rudy is a control freak. He just ran the man who heads the Grand Central Partnership out the door. Because the man was too good at revitalization. He ran Bill Bratton out of town because Bill was a take charge guy & was IN CHARGE of the Police Dept. Howard (where is his police experience?) Safir is a yes man who stays in the background. I don't know about you but I know who is the REAL Police Commissioner in this town & it ain't Howard! He ran Ramon Cortines out of The Board of Ed because Rudy just didn't like him. How better is Rudy Crew? The token black in the administration who has the same first name. He didn't want two Hispanics in the administration, because he has Herman Badillo as his token Hispanic! So he got rid of Cortines! He wants to get rid of the City Council. Sure, so he can rule without another branch of government watching him so he can be like a dictator! Have you seen Melissa Russo's reports when she was at NY1 on the shelters? Nothing but lies out of City Hall. And she had the video to prove it! The president of the US doesn't advocate eliminating Congress-the local equivalent. I don't give him any credit for reducing crime: the seeds were planted by Bill Bratton. Maybe crime is down, but there are fewer cops than ever before. That will change as the bad guys get wind of it. As for budget deficits: that was done on the backs & families of City Workers who get paltry raises or none at all recently.
Does anyone know what the story is with the construction of the new Coliseum depot in the Bronx. I was there recently and it looks the same than it did 1 year ago.Also any truth to the rumor that when the old one was up,the community tried to get landmark status to keep it from being torn down? Also by old West Farms Depot there is a name of a supermarket that will be occupying the present site.So if anybody doesn't have pictures of West Farms Depot, I suggest you take them now.Also if anyone knows any books on the history of the bus system please let me know. thanks.
Last weekend, I drove past the site of the old Coliseum depot and it appears that they did little something there, but you're right very little has been done since it was demolished. I always thought that a new Coliseum depot would be built there.. I wonder if it would retain the Coliseum name or perhaps it could be the new West Farms depot also
I was wondering if anyone has any knowledge of any Low Level Plattforms left On Metro North Railroad, or Long Island Railroad.
LIRR is eliminating LLPs in conjunction with its new diesel fleet. The only branch still using LLPs is Oyster Bay (from Glen Street eastward), and these will vanish soon as the new HLPs go into service.
Metro North (someone else should confirm) still uses LLPs on its New Haven line branches in CT (to Danbury and Waterbury), and of course on its NYS West of Hudson line to Port Jervis (operated jointly with NJ Transit).
Yesterday, just east of Jamaica, I spotted four of the LIRR's new Bi-level coaches. Three of them were 4000 series and one was 5000 series.
I assume that one series is coaches while the other represent cab units. If so, which are which? The original bi-level coaches 3000 series look very similar. Will they be compatible?
4000 series is trailer cars (some w/ADA bathrooms, some w/no bathrooms). 5000 series is cab cars, all with ADA bathrooms.
Thanks for the info. Will these cars be compatible with the 3000 series prototypes?
Does anyone know when the new trains are scheduled to enter service and what lines will get them first?
I've seen them on the main line, near Bellmont Race Track. Mr t__:^)
They *should* start entering service within a month. But don't forget the lesson about counting chickens.
I've heard that Port Jefferson will be the first line to get the bilevels. That makes sense as it's the busiest of the diesel lines, and with better equipment is in a position to take some pressure off Ronkonkoma (by the way, if anyone doesn't know why Ronkonkoma desparately needs a break, consider that its huge parking lots and multilevel garage are filled by 7 am). Figure that Montauk will be next to get the bilevels, with Oyster Bay and Greenport to follow.
My understanding from speaking to several conductors is that
they're going to try to spread the introduction out over all the diesel fleets, and not do one branch at a time. Of course, this decision is purely political, just like when the TA introduced air conditioning.
Also, they'll probably try to get the trainsets used as much as possible, so for example, on the Oyster Bay branch, they'd use them for trains which originate/terminate in Jamaica, as opposed to LIC.
What interests me, however, is what they'll do when they eventually get the dual mode locos in.. Which trains (if any) will be extended with service to NYP? On the Oyster Bay Branch (mine), my guess is that they may extend the 1501 (7:28 East Williston -> NYP) to originate at Oyster Bay, in between 505 and 507, or cancel 1501, and extend 507 to NYP.
-SteveK
Could someone describe the physical layout of the LIRR station at Jamaica(? many plats, tracks), as I am trying to make a crude track map and can't go all the way out there next time I'm in town(next month).
[Could someone describe the physical layout of the LIRR station at Jamaica(? many plats, tracks), as I am trying to make a crude track map and can't go all the way out there next time I'm in town(next month).]
Jamaica station has eight tracks and five platforms. From north to south, the arrangement is:
T1|platform|T2|platform|T3|T4|platform|T5|T6|platform|T7|platform|T8
This layout makes it possible to open both sides of trains on Tracks 2 and 7. Some rush hour connections are made by walking through a train on one of these tracks, so passengers can transfer between Tracks 1 and 3, or 6 and 8, without having to go up or down stairs. Tracks 4 and 5, and their center platform, are isolated; I believe at one point in the past they were used for special services that involved separate fares.
Peter is correct, as usual ! And yes they use the "walk through" system a lot. Typically a elect. comes in and diesels are to the left & right of it. Even more so years ago you used to have to "Change at Jamaica".
From the East three lines merge at Jamaica: two from Babylon, south shore & the main (mid-island).
From the West also three lines merge there: Penn, Flatbush (Brooklyn) and LIC (Long Isl City - diesel).
Just West of Jamaica are a few layup tracks for elect., plus a diesel yard a little further West. There's a O/H facility just off the line to Flatbush & used to be a car facility just South of the station. To the East there a lot of tracks, most too short to layup the long elect. You need to go thru Jamaica a few times to get the whole picture.
P.S. Only one LIRR line doesn't go through Jamaica, Port Wash, which includes Shea ... that makes it pain to go to a game & then want to go East to get home.
P.P.S. Don't wait too long for your visit & you'll see an interesting mix of very old diesels in service.
Mr t__:^)
Tracks 4 & 5 are used for trains which have no imediate connections at Jamaica. In addition, track 9 and sometimes 10 (which have no platform) are used by some east-bound express trains which do not stop at jamaica.
Although when there are "service irregularities" sometimes there are required transfers from, for example, Track 7 to Track 5. "Please use the staircases to access Track 5!" It has happened to me a few times.
By the way, if any of our MTA friends (Steve, Andy?) hear of an official inaugural run of the new LIRR cars, please let us know! I would make a trip down from BOS for that...
A correction. Tracks 4 and 5 are used regularly in the rush hours by peak direction trains that connect with each other. It is not true that 4 and 5 are used by trains with no regular connections. For example I often arrive at Jamaica in the AM on Train 811 (Long Beach to NY) on track 4, which connects with train 2735 (Speonk to LI City) on track 5. In the PM I normally go home on Train 872 (NY to Long Beach), stopping on track 4, which connects with Train 154 (FBA to Babylon) on track 5. Also, many customers depart 872 and board Train 2068 to Ronkonkoma (from HPA), immediately following on Track 4 (and also an official connection).
Todd, BTW, there is no "official" date for the first revenue run of the new bi-level equipment - but I will keep you informed.
my former regular train, #2099, used track 5 at Jamaica and there was no connection, so go figure.
Can anyone supply a roster of these cars
FLeet numbers,mfgr,date
thank you
Steve
smokiecat@webtv.net
Can anyone supply a roster of these cars
,,especially the Model Numbers (M-___)
thank you
Steve
smokiecat@webtv.net
The 4000 series are the trailer coaches.
The 5000 series are the cab cars.
Unknown if they will be compatible with the 3000 series cars in use for the past few years.
[Metro North (someone else should confirm) still uses LLPs on its New Haven line branches in CT (to Danbury and Waterbury), and of course on its NYS West of Hudson line to Port Jervis (operated jointly with NJ Transit).]
On the Waterbury branch, there are high-level platforms at Waterbury and Beacon Falls, low-level at Naugatuck, Seymour, Ansonia and Derby-Shelton.
On the Northeast Corridor Main line NJT has all high level platforms except Jersey Ave which is low level only. All stations except Newark Penn also have a short Low Platform for when the "local" track is out of service. Elizabeth (broad street) and New Brunswick have an extended low platform which is/was the original platform. Trenton Track 1 is low and useds only for AM peak.
SEPTA R7 is all low platforms from Levvittown to before North Philly. Cornwells Heights has a mini high platform due to the new park and ride lot. North Philly and the Center City stops are high platform.
Bob W can go into details about SEPTA's other lines.PATCO is all high platform.
There is a portion of the LLP left at Smithtown (LIRR). I've seen long, inbound trains in the a.m. pull past the HLP and alongside the LLP. I don't know if the trainmen and conductor opens the door on the cars that extend past the HLP, though.
On the LIRR, there is a Low Level Platform east of Farmingdale on the westbound track at Rt. 110. I believe it was once the stop for republic Aircraft.
[On the LIRR, there is a Low Level Platform east of Farmingdale on the westbound track at Rt. 110. I believe it was once the stop for republic Aircraft.]
That's correct. The Hicksville-Ronkonkoma line was electrified in the middle 1980s, which rendered low-level platforms obsolete. As far as I know, Republic was one of three stations closed at the time, along with Grumman and Pine-Aire. Deer Park station was relocated over a mile to the east of its former location. Old stationhouses are still visible at Pine-Aire and the former Deer Park location, in both cases being used for some sort of LIRR maintenance purposes. In fact, from an eastbound train you can still get a glimpse of a sign at Pine-Aire notifying riders of the station's "impending" closure. As noted, the old low-level platform remains at Republic, along with a small shed-like structure. Grumman seems to have vanished completely.
Confirmation: Port Jeff is High Level
Andy Q = But isn't the line to Riverhead still low level ?
Mr t__:^)
[But isn't the line to Riverhead still low level ?]
High level platforms were recently built at the stations along the line (which goes out to Greenport). Holtsville station was closed, as its single-digits ridership didn't justify the cost of a platform. There was never anthing there except a sign and a bus stop-style shelter; now the sign is gone and the shelter is completely covered with graffiti.
Peter, Thanks for the update. I'll be interested to see how they made a high level platform at Greenport where they have a few tracks (end of the line) & a ferry. High level just doesn't seem to fit that sight & with the sparce service, the cost either. I guess if all the old diesels are going by by they have no choice. Hope everyone has a photo of the old PAs. Ain't many "streamliners" running out side of the museums these days.
Mr t__:^)
<< Hope everyone has a photo of the old PAs. >>
Do you mean FA's? I don't believe the LIRR ever ran PA's as power packs.
Thurston - to answer your question:
Medford, Yaphank, Riverhead, Mattituck, Southold, Greenport - all single car high level platforms.
Here in Boston, nearly all of the MBTA Commuter Rail ("Purple Line") stations that are ADA-compatible have only mini-high platforms that can accomodate just single cars. For a list of them, see the MBTA Web site. While I've not ridden all of the commuter rail lines here, I believe that the only stations with full-length high platforms are North Station and South Station. The Route 128 Station is being converted to all high platforms this year, in order to accomodate the new high speed AMTRAK trains. A majority of the lines' stations are low level and therefore not ADA-compatible.
Of course, the other downside to low level platforms is slower passenger entry/exit, especiall in the winter when the steps get slippery.
Whoops. That MBTA Web site is here.
Todd - how about Back Bay and Forest Hills on the purple line? I recall that Back Bay is HLP - what about Forest Hills?
Yes, you are absolutely right about Back Bay being high level. Not sure about Forest Hills though. I'll have to ask around -- I don't get to them there hills!
There is a high-level platform station on the Harlem Line called "Mt. Pleasant", a few miles north of White Plains. "The Map" shows it as part-time. The platform is about one car long and on one side only, and it is right outside a cemetery.
(I have always wondered who gets on and off at Washington DC's Arlington Cemetery station late at night!)
Anyway, does anyone know what this station is used for, if used at all?
[There is a high-level platform station on the Harlem Line called "Mt. Pleasant", a few miles north of White Plains. "The Map" shows it as part-time. The platform is about one car long and on one side only, and it is right outside a cemetery.
(I have always wondered who gets on and off at Washington DC's Arlington Cemetery station late at night!)
Anyway, does anyone know what this station is used for, if used at all?]
Mt. Pleasant is used mostly for cemetery visitors. Its platform is actually so short that only one door of one car can open. If I'm not mistaken, there are platforms on both sides of the tracks.
The LIRR has a similar cemetery station, Pinelawn, located on the Ronkonkoma line. Its platform is longer that Mt. Pleasant's, but there's only one.
I've heard that the shortest rapid transit platform in the NY area is the Atlantic station on the SIRT. It's the last stop before the Tottenville terminal, and is either one car or one door.
Isn't Arlington Cemetery closed at night (dusk to dawn)? Used to be, as I recall.
Ed Alfonsin/SUNY at Potsdam
The one on the Harlem (or Hudson) line is closed at night. My brother-in-law and I rode from Grand Central to Chappaqua in 1991, and our train stopped at that cemetery. The conductor keyed one set of doors to allow passengers to get off; the platform was very short. We returned to GCT near midnight, and the cemetery was closed when we went past it.
[The one on the Harlem (or Hudson) line is closed at night. My brother-in-law and I rode from Grand Central to Chappaqua in 1991, and our train stopped at that cemetery. The conductor keyed one set of doors to allow passengers to get off; the platform was very short. We returned to GCT near midnight, and the cemetery was closed when we went past it.]
Metro North's schedule at Mt. Pleasant (Harlem line) is geared around cemetery opeing hours. Same for the LIRR's Pinelawn station.
The current Metro Blue Line schedule has
Arlington Cemetery station open until 10PM weekdays and 7PM weekends.
This may be adjusted for winter hours, as it has been in the past.
Wayne.
I heard a rumor stating that there was once a series of privately funded subway lines in NY built beneath the public lines. Supposedly for use by and funded by ,Astor,Rockerfeller,Morgan,Guggenheim, and other very wealthy families in the early 1900's. Anyone know anything about this? Fact or fiction? E-mail any info to Don at df@carol.net
thanks.
This rumor is unfortunately being perpetuated by a recent sci-fi/horror novel "Reliquary" (D.Preston/L.Child) (sequel to "Relic" which was made into a movie last year). I think the authors heard a little about the Beach subway and a little about the Croton Aqueduct system and made up their little fantasy world where lots of people get mauled by genetic aberrations under the streets of New York. It is an interesting book for the extent of its fictional settings. I should have known better though-- co-authored fiction is usually pretty terrible :-) Also, in the "Afterward" of the book, the authors refer to "The Mole People" by Toth as a non-fictional research work on which they based part of their settings and plot. If you've read Joe Brennan's debunking of "The Mole People" you'd realize that "Reliquary" is even MORE ridiculous. The moral ---> Don't believe everything you hear or read...
That is not a false satment. My uncle Monroe is a subway engineer and he told me about he has visited a train station funded and created by the rich that is almost 16 stories underground. Though the book "Reliquary had exagerated a little bit, they are not making up crap, they are telling the very truth.
Well, maybe he could offer some proof... where was it? how did he get to it? Just saying "I know someone who said they've been there" doesn't constitute proof, especially among this crowd. It's like saying "I've been to the moon. It's sandy and the air is pretty thin."
I believe the Jesuits and the Tri-Lateral Commission were involved.
Seriously, it they already had a separate subway for the rich, they wouldn't bother with the Lower Manhattan Access study.
it is located somewhere under lower 33rd street, by lower manhattan. Nearly 16 stories down, it is only a rumor. My uncle has read the book Reliquary and admits they where quite off but had the basic idea. My uncle has one photo of the run down station, taken in 1977, but from the terrible lighting condidtions of the station,it looks like it could be almost any run down station.
Me and my uncle have decided to check out the station from NYC records, he has a hand drawn map, and on photo, though he does not have a map of the line itself, he does have a map of the station.
The Long Island Railroad, New Jersey Transit, and Amtrack all run under 33rd St, deep underground. While it is conceivable that the beginnings of a station were built on the east side and then abandoned (Grand Central is on the west side), it is likely that someone would be able to see it from the trains, and it would be widely known.
[The Long Island Railroad, New Jersey Transit, and Amtrack all run under 33rd St, deep underground. While it is conceivable that the beginnings of a station were built on the east side and then abandoned (Grand Central is on the west side), it is likely that someone would be able to see it from the trains, and it would be widely known.]
I've ridden at the front windows of LIRR trains out of Penn Station, and I definitely haven't seen anything remotely resembling an abandoned or unfinished station. Nor have I ever heard of any plans for an east side station on the line. As you noted, the line is quite deep and construction of a station surely would be prohibitively expensive (and probably would interfere with Penn Station traffic).
Eye agree, re Private line under 33rd St, LIRR:
The only thing interesting is a extra lead comming in (from East) on the South pair, i.e. there's a third track for a while that typically the LIRR outbound from track 13 uses if it's waiting for a AmTrack/NJ Transit to come in from the Sunnyside yard.
Also ALL the tracks are at one level vs. Grand Central.
Maybe someone who comes in from the West can comfirm nothing exists on that end either.
P.S. Maybe the poster of this is getting confused with the PATH line that runs up 5th to 33rd Street ?
Mr t__:^)
on the west side south of nj tunnels there are(were) some dead end lay up tracks. there are(were) some mail loading platfoms under the post office. my info may be dated.
Like i said earlier (or maybe i didn't mention it) that is where he started down. Just because i have said this is where we deceded, dows not mean that i have pinpointed the exact space.
And there is an automobile that can run on water. See what happens when PCs get cheap. Typical AOL user..............
#3772 (and his mate #3773) were operating on the R this afternoon (about 12:45PM)
with NO air conditioning and very few lights.
To the conductor - that did NOT stop me from finishing my photo shoot.
Sorry, but my pictures are mine and mine alone - as long as I don't fire the flash in the motorman's face.
Wayne
I wonder if THAT is the true reason why many Jamaica R32's have been shifted from the E to the R this summer. In my daily duties, I have heard MANY transmissions to the control center from Motormen & Conductors calling in hot cars on the R. On the E, with the over-crowding conditions, passengers in a hot car can't go to another car, whereas on the R, a line with smaller crowds than the E, many times a walk to the next car is possible. I was subject to a hot R32 car on the R one day during August while going somewhere while on vacation. This is a logical explanation since another contributor to this site has reported at the end of this month the original assignment will re-occur, just when it starts to get cooler underground.
I was on an R-32 operating on the R line a few weeks ago with both the heat and A/C on. I go on a Quuens-bound R at Times Sq and the car was half-empty and I thought wow lucky me- there are actually seats. I sat down and wow- those seats were HOT!
This car has been ordered out of service for repair. Thank you for the report.
Steve
Friday with the derailment on Metro North additional subway service saw the Redbirds pressed into passenger service on the number 1 as a special from 242nd st to Time Square. I overheard passengers at 242nd st saying "what was that?" a number 1 with redbirds in the station with doors open boarding passengers instead of the usual R62a. To me it was a hell of a vision!!!! headways seemed to be 3-4 mins between trains uptown
Now "THAT" is a REAL train!!!!!!!!
Which line were the redbirds borrowed from?
and were they running thru service from 242nd St to Times Square without stops???(sort of a "super express?")
No, they were not running non-stop between 242 and TS, since the whole point was to get more trains to 225.
So the Redbirds honored the #1 with their presence, huh? I'm curious about one thing: is the operator supposed to change the bulkhead destination sign at South Ferry from "South Ferry" to "242nd St., etc."? I wonder if this was the case before the R-62s arrived on the scene. BTW, that's the only disadvantage to having bulkhead destination signs that I can think of.
Maybe they'll keep a few Redbirds on the 1 when I'm in the city next month. I will be making every effort to ride Redbirds when using the IRT - they may not be around long enough for me to see them again after that.
YES, THEY ALWAYS USE TO CHANGE THE SIGN AT SOUTH FERRY.
In many cases, since the trains have to hold at South Ferry, the conductor will change the rear bulkhead sign
not only were we required to change bulkhead signs and markers, we were required to change the destination side sign lighting changeover loop on the unoverhauled R type cars prior to the 62 fleet.
Thanks! I didn't start riding down to South Ferry until only a few years ago, and only on R-62s, so naturally I never saw anything being changed. That's why it would be very interesting to take a 1 or 9 of Redbirds down there, if they keep any of them on those two routes.
The sad fact is:
Back in the Grafitti days, it was rare to see the roll sign showing the correct destination, not even close to the rate of seeing a northbound #5 showing "Bowling Green" nowadays...
And many a case, the side roll sign highlighting the wrong way...
I used to ride the post-midnight A/D back in the 80's and had to stay close to the conductor to make sure the train was going local past Columbus Cle.
I thought the D ran/runs express along CPW at all times.
There were instances during the bad old days of the 70s in which the wrong side signs would be illuminated on a train. Not to mention wrong signs, period. Sometimes both signs would be lit up!
How are the signs changed on the trains. Or, how does an orange "Q" marker become a blue "E" or a yellow "R"? Is there some machine inside?
THERE ARE SIGN ROLLS INSIDE EACH SIGN COMPARTMENT SOME NEWER CARS HAVE AUTOMATIC CHANGING WHILE OLDER CARS HAVE TO BE CHANGED MANUALLY USUALLY IN THE TRAIN YARD BEORE THEIR ASSIGNMENTS SOMEONE WILL CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG BUT I BELIEVE THE R32 CARS ARE CHANGED MANUALLY AND THE NEWER R46 CARS ARE AUTOMATIC
Is that the same deal with IRT equipment?
Yes, the Redbirds have the same manual roll signs as the R-32s and R-38s. In fact, their sign boxes are the same. At one time, all rolling stock with cloth roll signs had good old hand cranks, which made it diabolically simple for anyone to change a sign. I did it once on a BMT standard, as a matter of fact. (I know, shame on me!) The hand cranks for the destination signs on my IND sign box are easy to turn, but the route sign crank is pretty stiff.
Today, all side signs except for those on the R-44s and R-46s are set up by inserting a gizmo with a square peg into the receptacle for the sign to be changed and rotating the peg in the desired direction. I guess it works in much the same way as a drill. The R-40s and R-42s were fitted with the same sign boxes as the R-62s and R-68s during rebuilding.
BTW, the route sign on an R-1/9 sign box could be retrofitted to accept that same gizmo they use today. The crank itself is bolted to the hinged lid, and has a square shaft which mates up with the gear mechanism on the sign housing when the lid is closed. The destination sign cranks were mounted directly to the gear mechanism and protruded through holes in the side of the upper hinged lid on the sign box. Next time you're at the Transit Museum, check out the sign boxes on R-1 #100 or R-4 #484. Only the lids are screwed down and the cranks are disabled, so nothing happens when you turn them.
it seemd like 3-4 min headways!!! really quick
I am looking forward for the day that ALL Redbirds are in Naporano's scrap yard.
its unfortunate but true that one day soon the red birds and other aging subway cars will soon be retired and replaced by well who knows what type of equipment. Even with all the study and trials of the tech trains the finished product usually will have some bugs to iron out once on the property..
My question is about the NJ transit Jersey Ave station config.
The southbound platform is located on the ROW but the New York bound
platform is off set. It is located about 300 feet from the line. It is
low level and only has one track that seems to continue past the
station to some sort of yard which doesn't seem to be electric.
Why was the station built this way?
Jersey Boy????
Jersey Avenue always struck me as a cheap alternative to building any kind of a real station. My guess is that it was built to alleviate parking problems at New Brunswick.
that was one of the areas first park and rides. the prr (aka njt northeast line) had lot local service to new brunswick nj. the storage yard is known a the county yard. the tower was call county. yes it was low cost answer to downtown parking
To all my fellow subway enthusiasts you may or may not know that the NYCTA has just published a subway guide on the order of the Insiders Bus guide. It is a very informitive book. I do have a few questions that maybe somebody could answer. According to this book Jamaica yard has the largest fleet assignment 1052 cars of R32-R46 class. I thought Coney Island was the largest yard? Also are certain class cars always assigned to a certain yard? It also says that 207st maintains the A line but the C is at Pitcan along with the A. Wouldn't the C line also be at 207st? It shows only about 206 cars at 207st I would think there would be more cars since this is a overhaual shop. Can somebody put a spin on this?
The Subway guide is already outdated. For one thing, Jamaica Shop has 1,064 cars assigned to our fleet. One common misconception - Coney Island Yard is not the largest yard, either in fleet assignment or in car capacity. Coney Island complex is actually 3 yards, Coney island yard, Stillwell Yard and City or Av. X yard. As for the largest yard in car capacity, take a guess?
Any info on how an out-of-NY'er can get a copy, such as an address to write? I obtained a couple of '98 Bus Guides thru the mail from the Jamaica Ave address.
Try
MTA - NYC Transit
Customer Relations
370 Jay Street
Brooklyn, NY 12001
Thanks to those of you who offered assistance in this regard to an out-of-towner.
Could someone let me know how to obtain this guide? Thanks
Susan I called customer assistance at 1-718-330-3322 to obtain a copy of the subway guide.
Is there a charge for the Guide? If so, do they take credit cards?
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
There is no charge for the subway guide or the Insiders Bus guide. I would have to say the NYCTA is pretty generous that way. Down here in Philly land I don't think SEPTA would give this kind of stuff out.
For that matter I don't think they even have publications likethis.
Funny you should mention that NYCT is unusual having these sort of publications. Compared to other cities, I'm thinking of London in particular, NYCT is positively lacking in publications. London Transport publishes a number of officially (or officially endorsed) books-- an overview "Handbook", guides to station architecture, history of individual lines, rolling stock guides (which NYCT finally published this year), etc. Some of these things are published by a "Capital Transport" company which I assume is independant but all the books are officially endorsed and sold thru London Transport venues (the London Transport Museum). Up until this year when "Evolution of NY Subways" came out, NYCT didn't publish ANYTHING of merit themselves...
I received the NYC Insider's Bus Guide, as well as the Operators guide to customer service. These books are fun to read. The person to whom I spoke was most friendly and helpful. I just wish that the bus division was more forthcoming with memorabilia. Anyone have any bus signs???????
If anyone wants anything specific, I visit the LT museum bookshop quite often and can suggest titles, track down ISBN numbers etc. Email me at mjr@essex.ac.uk
I am also keen to exchange maps by mail.
At the moment, what does SEPTA use desiels 60 and 61 for?? Or are they justed used on special runs?
They are primarily used on work trains and come in handy when power is out. During Railworks a few years ago, diesel-hauled trains covered two or three special trains out of lower level 30th St every day, but to the best of my knowledge, these were not hauled by these locos.
Hi, James here again, does anyone want the author to Reiquary's
E-mail Adress? I will give it to those who e-mail me.
Seems like all the Subway guys are out of town today, or maybe the LIRR BBS is down ? I don't mind, makes this board all that more interesting (variations on the theme). At least we got off the "road" discussion.
Mr t__:^)
Dear aol users,
me and my uncle will be attending private chatroom,
"Underground."
At 3:30, eastern, standard time. If you wish to attend, please do, for we will not be writing back to subtalk for atleast 2 days(maybe more) for we have decided to check out this subterrainian phenominon ourselves. My uncle and I have equiped ourselves, with the latest technology in nightvision goggles, high density lights, tote bags, ect., hoping only for the best. So I strongly encourage you to be there.(sorry, we will only take few photographs, because of the weight of the camera, and its flash, simply weigh, too much to take down with us) When we return I will be sure to post a message about what saw, as soom as we get back.
Thanxs.
James.
PS:
We will also be posting our final message before our final decend, at 4:00 pm, sharp.
what is so important and whats with the night vision? Are you looking for the rats working at 370 Jay St? I don't need the time check either because I don't see this as VERY IMPORTANT
I have a silly question, but it is a curiosity issue more than anything else. Do the cars with large front-end destination signs
(R40, R40M, R42, R44, R46, R68, R68A) have letters on the rolls
for routes not currently operating? I.E. would there be a letter
"K", "T", "V" etc. on them? If such letters exist on these curtain
rolls, what colors are their backgrounds? Also, are there two different colors for "B", "D" and "Q" on each one? (gold and orange).
I also noticed that one Slant R40 on the N (#4210, I believe) has a different
kind of sign - a white "N" on a gold background instead of a black "N", just like the old R42s when they were new. The background was a deep enough shade to allow the "N"
to be seen clearly.
I wonder if any others are like this.
Thanks for any information you have.
Wayne
Wayne,
I know that the R-68A's had B, D @ Q signs in both orange (6 Ave) and Yellow or Gold (Bway). I believe the original R-68 signs did not have these signs and the Q signs were in the diamond (rush hour) background. I don't know about the others.
When the R40's were fairly new, the front signs were large letters on a full field, and one day I saw an F with its lovely fuschia backlit with one of the green tubes from the era of green lit side signs on the IRT Ghastly shade.
There is a photo in New York Subway Cars of a freshly overhauled slant R-40 with an orange and white V sign. I don't know about the T, but if I had to guess, I would say it would probably have a yellow or gold background, given the historical significance of that letter designation. The original KK/K route was dark blue.
Don't forget: the side destination signs on the R-27s, R-30s, R-32s, and R-38s were originally illuminated in green as well. I thought they looked nice like that. The Triplex units featured green signs when a given train was operating via the Manhattan Bridge.
I posted some time ago a list of the readings on the front-end signs. One reading is a "W", which is a black letter on a yellow diamond. (The side route sign version lists the route for the "W" as Astoria/ Broadway). There is also a white "R" on a brown circle. Maybe our webmeister Mr. Pirmann can find my old post. It may have even been much earlier this year, but it had the list.
For the most part, most of the end sign rolls carry some unused route letters. I have seen some with Vs, Ws and Ts. There are even some which still have the JFK Express logo.
Thanks for the info; correct me if I'm wrong (based on others' posts)
"V" would be orange (6th Avenue) and "T" and "W" would be gold (Broadway). By the way, did you see a "K" or a "P"? Maybe someone
could "roll" one of the front end signs (while the train's in the
yard), and take a head count. I'd like to know what R68 has on the
roll, since these are the newest cars.
Thanks again,
Wayne
The arrangements on post-1986 signs goes something like this:
(JFK)ACHEFGNRWSBDQDQBKSVSRMJZL black letter, white bullet: PTUXY
R-68 signs (from 1986) were in alphabetical order, and with the diamond N instead of the W, plus only one color (the original) for the B, D, the diamond Q and S, and also Eastern Div. (J, M, L, but I'm not sure about Z) signs. All newer R-68 signs, and R-68 signs leave out the eastern div.
Only R-32/38 side signs have the last 5 letters, but I've heard rumors that some replacement R-68 signs (with thicker letters, and "not in service" and "special" on the side sign) may have them.
Digital signs can have any letter, and the R-44/46 side signs have the
K with 8th Av. and some 6th Av destinations, the V with various 6th Av destinations, the W with Broadway destinations, the T with most possible West End destinations, the J between essex and Broad, the M between Essex and almost any Southern. division line/terminal, the X from 21st St to WTC, and I, L, O, P, U, Y, and Z with no destinations.
The R-110 B has an orange A and gray K. This reflected early 90's plans to send the A to Brighton Beach (and the 44/46 side signs have this too!), and the K as Canarsie skip-stop.
It's true that some R-40 signs do have a B and N, white letter on a light orange (almost yellow) background. Some have "shuttle" and "special" in a gray bullet.
My suggestion for "U" is Bway/Brighton local, replacing the yellow D, and for the P to replace the brown R (4th Av/Nassau special), and can also be used for the emergency Jamaica-Penn St service proposed for LIRR strikes.
Eric B's list and comments about B Division signs is one of the most interesting and informative things I've seen in a long time. Thanks very much for it.
In a related issue, has anyone else noticed that in the whole discussion of unused Division A numbers and Division B letters there's a strange incongruity--the TA, in typical fashion, I guess, suppressed 50 years or so of IND single/double letters for express/local service and apparently has thought of doing almost the opposite for the IRT, using one number for locals and another number for expresses (Pelham, Flushing, White Plains Road). One has to wonder about what goes on in their minds when one hears about such thinking.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
I myself wouldn't mind seeing different numbers for the IRT express
service; picture this: All but a few Redbirds are gone and most everything is either R62, R62A or R142. I'm standing on the platform at Grand Central waiting for a Flushing Express. I realize that they use the diamond signs, but I'd know immediately that the express was there if it had an 11 rather than a 7. Ditto for the 5 being marked as a 10. It just seems to make more sense to
use another number for a different service, like they do with the
1 and 9 .
Thanks again to Eric B for the information - we has archived it.
Wayne
I understand that that makes sense, but I myself don't like using another character for a service that never really diverges from the original line, often even having the same terminals. I don't like the idea of skip-stop, and would rather see them have a diamond 1 run on the express track (but I don't know how beneficial that would be), and for them to use something like "I" instead of Z, since that line is really the same as the J, and the letter would be useless anywhere else. (I would like to see that K/L skip-stop next year when the Williamsburg Bridge closes next year, because I'll need it!) I do like the idea of using new letter for the diverted routes created by the closing of the Manhattan Bridge, because moving them to Broadway is a big difference from the normal route. There too, they went back to double letter in their own inhouse books with "BX, BK, DX, and DK to distinguish the lines. Just use B, T, D and U (or at least W)! I also think they are using too many "S"s. Times Square shuttle is really IRT and should not have a letter, and the Rockaway shuttle should just go back to being "H".
I thank you for appreciating my post. It was alot of work. Thanks for archiving it. I may have gotten a few of those lettters at the end
(KSVSRMJZL) mixed up, and I think there are also some signs that have R before N. I also left out the diamond variants of A, C, and both B's (W and brown R are only diamonds). The R-32/38 side signs have even more variations of some of the lines (i.e-- B, 6th Av/West End, Wash Hts/6th Av/West End (both circles) and Wash Hts/6th Av, (the diamond service to 34th St. when the bridge is closed.), and I think also West End Shuttle in both orange and yellow. There are similar variants for the C and D. And also a diamond J for the Brighton!
The ERA Bulletin has published the various roll-sign listings as well as the R-44/46 side sign codes (about 1100!) over the past several years.
But once again, as for the IRT numberings, I do understand that the average person may benefit by havng a slight variant of a line spelled out for them with a new number. I just don't know what ever happened with that idea.
I DON'T THINK THE L LINE WOULD RUN SKIP STOP SERVICE.IT'S TOO SHORT.(37MIN RUNNING TIME).
If you think there are too many S routes right now, check out a map from 1969-70. There were SS designations for shuttles which replaced normal routes during the late hours and/or weekends. Examples of routes are the 3, 5 to Dyre Ave., and the M. When you add the "regular" shuttles (42nd St., Franklin Ave., and the Bowling Green-South Ferry, which was still running back then), that map became a bit cluttered. On top of that, all shuttles were colored green, as opposed to the 1967 TA map, which gave each shuttle a different color. Consider that the first attempt to standardize route colors.
The letter S today stands for shuttle; it also fell prey to the dropping of double letters during the mid-80s. Prior to that, S stood for Special, whether it was an Aqueduct Special or a revenue collection train. The destination signs clarified that; cars used on the Aqueduct Special had Aqueduct Race Track signs; revenue collection trains or any other trains which were not carrying passengers (they didn't use the term "customers" back then) were marked, "No Passengers".
Tonight (Monday) at ~10:45pm I was waiting for the uptown A at 145th
Street. An unusual mixed consist designated as "T" train had 4 R-38's
at the lead position followed by 2 redbirds followed by 4 R-32's. First time I had seen mixed IND & IRT equipment on the IND tracks (or anywhere else!).
Also-
Last week while riding the A train there was a large poster in the car advertising for the guggenheim motor cycle exhibit. Does anyone know who I might write to to ask for a used poster. The MTA must throw old ones away, right?
-Michael
How sure are you that they weren't R30s?
-Hank
Just maybe the R-38s were driven down by our Boston Weather man. Was the "T" painted on the side of the train ? ;-o)
"TEE hee hee!" Well as a matter of fact, I WAS in NYC yesterday. Unfortunately though I didn't spend any time on the subway... it was a quick jaunt to LI, which necessitated a rental car from LGA :-(
So while I can't remember riding on the "T" train when it operated back in the 60's, I sure would like to see one established. Whenever we get the darn East River crossing problem fixed, we can then have Broadway/Express service again, and the opportunity to add new routes.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if there were, in fact, Redbirds in that consist. Remember, all cars from R-10 to R-42, except for the R-11s, can operate together. It's not uncommon to have IRT and IND/BMT equipment coupled together during yard moves. I would say those cars were going to one of the yards uptown.
BTW, I remember seeing T trains of R-32s at Union Square on Saturdays back in the fall of 1967 before the Chrystie St. connection opened. Alas, it was one of those instances where the doors were closing as we came down the stairs, so perhaps I should rephrase that statement: I remember seeing those T trains as they pulled out of Union Square.
I did ride a TT back in July of 1965.
That is what I was thinking, They were heading uptown on the A tracks.
I am sure they were IRT equipment as they only had 3 sets of doors and
were clearly shorter than the other 8 cars. Where could the red birds have been going to? I thought the 207 yard was IND equipment only.
BTW, the interior lights were turned off....spooky looking.
207th Street can handle both "A" (IRT) and "B" (IND-BMT) division equipment. For A division cars (except #7 line) 207th Street is the equivalent to Coney Island - the place where major overhauls and component change outs are performed. The IRT yards at the ends of the lines (e.g., 240th/Broadway; 239th/WP Road; Westchester Ave) are for layup, cleaning, and minor running repairs only.
Actually, the flip-flopping of the Manhattan Bridge is the perfect opportunity to reinstitute the "T". In minor closings of the 6th Av side only from 1982-86, and one midday in 1990, plus the major shutdown from 1986-88, the actual service was restored, (Astoria, rush hours, 57th St evenings and weekends) but they kept calling it "B", even though the uptown portion of the B still ran on 6th Av. I had been telling the TA to bring back the letter instead of "splitting" existing letter routes, and having them run parallel in Manhattan.
Good news is that the R-44/46 side signs were progammed for several "T" routings on the West End to various northern terminals on the Broadway and 6th Av lines, and even Essex and Chambers St on the Nassau line. The R-32/38 didital sign can have any letter, and also numbers (and years ago I saw a 38 going over the Manhattan Bridge as "T". The unused letters are often used on light moves. I've also seen "X") The 32/38 also has white "T" bullets on the side signs (along with "P" "U" "X" and "Y". It's the 40, 42, and 68's that don't have the letter on any of the signs, and probably the 44/46 front sign also. So these would have to be changed if they were to bring the letter back, or the line restricted to 32's & 38's.
Speaking of the ERC, in the TSM-O plan (the cheapest option; no Rutgers connection), when the Bridge is fully open, they would add a new T service via bridge to 57th/7th (8 tph) on the West End, in addition to the B service. (The Q would remain on 6th Av, and the M would go to 95th) So you may still one day see "T" trains.
I wonder what it costs for a front end curtain roll and/or a side
sign roll for any of the above mentioned cars...no doubt they'll have
to either append the additional letter(s) or replace the rolls.
Question - IRT - I have seen white signs on the redbirds due to the
Lenox Rehab project - did they replace the whole side roll or just
tack on an extra piece?
Hmm... nice Gold T...sounds good to me.
Thanks,
Wayne
They pasted those over, the 9, I believe.
Now, when they first instituted #9 service, they had to replace all the signs on the #1 assigned R-62A's. You could tell that the signs looked new, with a fresher, almost magenta color. If they could do it for the 9, they could do it for the T
I'd like to repeat something I've suggested in the past--that when people use acronyms (at least the unusual ones beyond IRT, BMT, NYCT) they spell them out at least once in a message for the benefit of people who may not be familiar with them. Seeing, in just one sentence, 'ERC,' 'TSM-O,' and 'tph' is a bit disheartening.
It would be helpful, IMHO, especially for newcomers but also for absent-minded academics like me, to add an occasional < car > after uses like 'R-44' and '38' (no need to expand 'R' to 'Revenue' 8-) ).
Thanks.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
I took the chance of using "ERC" because the post I was responding to had spelled out "East River Crossing". I didn't think the words for "TSM" were really important enough, because "transportation systems management" can have a broad meaning. Here it is just the title for a service improvement aternative, and that was the point. ("-O" meant "bridge fully open".) It was late and I was kind of in a rush, and reading and posting alot of other things. (I had been without a mouse for a whole week, and was catching up) so I had to shorthand it Sorry if it was that confusing.
Before 1967, (I'm pretty sure of the date) the B (West End Line) was called the 'T'. T was not meant to designate a transfer train nor was the letter 'X' (as in Xsfer) Unless things have changed in the last few months, transfer trains (formerly referred to as "drags") are supposed to be designated by a Flip Dot sign with all dots illuminated or an End Sign which reads "NOT IN SERVICE" (white letters on a black background). In addition, R-44/46s should read the same way on the electronic side signs.
Well, I guess that people do all sorts of things that may not be according to the books. They probably do it just to be funny, like when they signed up a new R-68A as "V" in Concourse yard, and also had the R-44 set that had the experimental flip-dot signs displaying "I" in the front. I figured the "X" signified it was not in service-- you know, like something "Xed" out. I never knew why they used T. I didin't think of X or T signifying "transfer.".
I haven't taken an R32 from Astoria lite to City Hall Yard for lay-up for a few years. But from reading these posts about transfer trains with unusual signs up front is making some sub-talk contributors take notice. I admit I used to put up "X". Probably just to be silly, maybe the X-Rated train, I never really thought about it. Just wanted to show it was not an N train. Maybe I was supposed to have no dots illuminated, maybe all dots illuminated. It is only because it is not possible to put up "Not in Service" on the R32 & R38. Maybe next time I work the N and have an R32 I'll post 4 (yes they do have #'s 0 to 9) as a throwback to the D type days, and you can knock on the cab door to say hello!!!!!!!
You are correct. Before the Chrystie St. connection opened, West End Express trains were designated with the letter T. Although the BMT letter code was adopted in 1960 with the introduction of the R-27 and R-30 cars, it wasn't until 1964-65 that West End express trains were actually marked with a T. By the mid-60s, T trains ran only during rush hours and all day Saturday. West End service patterns are documented in the line-by-line section. During rush hours, I believe the T ran to Astoria; on Saturdays, it terminated at 57th St. I'll have to check my dog-eared Hagstrom's mid-60s map. As it became common practice to assign the oldest equipment to rush hour routes, the last Triplex units served the #3, later to become the T, line until they were retired in July of 1965 and succeeded by most likely the R-32s, once they were all delivered. (Does anyone know just how long it took for Budd to deliver all 600 R-32s?) If only I had known this; if only we had ridden the BMT during rush hour on July 21st or 22nd... I do remember seeing T trains of R-32s at Union Square once or twice on Saturdays in the fall of 1967, as well as QB trains of R-27/30s (yes, the QB ran all day on Saturdays and Sundays in those days).
I'm all for reviving the T. It would essentially duplicate the old Broadway/West End Express service - that is, if the Manhattan Bridge is ever fully reopened to subway trains.
I think all of the R32s were aboard by about October of 1965.
I saw a "T" on July 31, 1965 (Saturday) on a day trip with Mom & Dad
(at Broadway/34th). I first saw an R32 on November 22, 1964,
as a "QB" at Cortelyou Road; the unit number was 3421.
Wayne
The very first subway train I ever rode was an N of shiny new R-32s on July 21, 1965 from 36th St.-4th Ave. to 34th St.-Broadway. It was a hot day, but once we reached the 86th floor of the Empire State Building, it felt cooler. I actually wore a black shirt that day - what was I thinking? We subsequently rode down to Battery Park on an RR or QT (don't remember which one) and caught the ferry to the Statue of Liberty. I also remember getting off at one point at 71st on the West End; since it was midday, we more than likely rode a TT. Since R-32s were assigned to the TT, I'm pretty sure that's what our train consisted of. Say what you want, but I blew a golden opportunity to catch a Triplex train literally during its final days of service.
I dug out my Hagstrom's subway map from the mid-60s and would like to pass a few tidbits along. Contrary to what I said yesterday, the T express operated from 5:00 AM to 8:00 PM on Saturdays between 57th St. and Coney Island. During weekdays, it ran between Astoria and Coney Island from 5:00 AM to 10:00 AM and from 3:00 PM to 8:00 PM, skipping DeKalb Ave.
I also uncoverd this bit of info on the QT. During the mid-60s, it operated, together with the Q, on weekdays from 6:00 AM to 7:00 PM. The Q ran express via the Manhattan Bridge between 57th St. and Brighton Beach, while the QT ran via the Montague St. tunnel and made all local stops between Astoria and Coney Island. The QB operated when both the Q and QT weren't running - during evening and late hours on weekdays and all day on weekends between Astoria and Coney Island via the Manhattan Bridge, and made all local stops. In other words, the QB and QT never operated at the same time.
One other item of note: as we all know, the B as we know it today debuted when the Chrystie St. connection opened on November 26, 1967. However, the 57th St.-6th Ave. station wasn't ready yet; it would not open until July 1, 1968. During that interim period, B trains operated from 5:30 AM to 8:00 PM Monday thru Saturday, and the TT was retained as a shuttle between 36th St. and Coney Island during the late hours and all day on Sunday. During rush hours, B trains ran local up Central Park West to 168th St., and express along 6th Ave. and in Brooklyn, skipping DeKalb Ave. During middays and Saturdays, they terminated at W.4th St. and stopped at DeKalb Ave, but ran express between Pacific St. and 36th St. On July 1, 1968, B trains began operating 24 hours a day, and the TT was discontinued. Rush hour service remained the same as before; during non-rush hours, they ran local along 6th Ave., stopped at DeKalb Ave., and ran express between Pacific St. and 36th St from 6:00 AM to 8:00 PM 7 days a week.
Could this info be incorporated into the Line by Line section? Sorry for the long-winded post.
Subway advertising is handled by Gannett News in Westchester. Try them!
The redbirds could very well have been Jerome (#4) Line cars being transferred from Jerome Yard to the 207th Street Overhaul shop. That move is made by leaving Jerome yard, changing directions and entering Concourse yd. There the IND horses are added and the transfer train leaves Concourse Yard, southbound on the D line, turning northbound at 125th St. and then along the A line to 207th St. yard/
<< The definitive reference for subway car history is
<< "Evolution of New York City Subways" by Gene Sansone,
<< New York Transit Museum Press. It contains excellent
<< historical information as well as many photos. Not as
<< good as "New York City Subway Cars" for color photos but
<< the car drawings are better quality.
Is this book still in print ?
Where it can be purchased ?
Thanks.
See Subway Bibliography - http://www.nycsubway.org/biblio/major.html
and look under "Rolling Stock". All will be explained.
-Dave
It's a good book to have in one's collection, but it is
disappointing in several ways:
- The technical information is loaded with errors and omissions
- Most of the pictures were blown up without preserving the
height/width ratio, so you get ridiculous things like the
"stretch" composite car and 999 looking like a Birney
- None of the pictures are captioned
- No attribution is given on technical facts (e.g. "this
info from the 1940 Board of Transporation roster entitled.....")
Totally agree. See my review in the archives. I'm surprised that the TA would allow it's imprimatur on such a "nearly-great" book. This must say something of the state of knowledge (or lack thereof) regarding the history of the system. Don Harold, where are you when we need you!!
In a recent Diet Coke ad(one not featuring the president), there was a montage of clips of people in various situations doing....stuff, with a woman singing "Just for the taste of it....". In one scene there was a woman dancing with one of L.A's Red Line subway trains passing behind.
No, actually, that was the *only* red line subway ;)
But seriously, didn't LA just descide to axe further building of their system?
Well, they can have their 6 lane highways.....
If you get on the LA MTA site, you can see them having open houses of areas of the subway STILL UNDER CONSTRUCTION!
Los Angelinos don't seem to be too interested in the subway. They all either have cars or live close enough to where they need to go they can walk.
Besides, I think that any sentence with the words 'subway' and 'Los Angeles(read: earthquake)' is a little unsettling.
I saw "Volcano", I'm not falling for that!:)
(In "Volcano", a man melts in lava after jumping from a trapped subway train in L.A. Really makes you want to take the MetroRail.)
Actually, if it wasn't for the subway (BART not Muni)in San Francisco after the '89 earthquake, bay area residents would have had no choice but to drive about 3 hours to cross the bay from Oakland to SF. BART held up while the Bay Bridge was seriously damaged and closed to traffic for weeks.
Though not a rail(but still a transit) matter, I think you should know that SEPTA is getting smarter all of a sudden.
There is a new Rt. 123 bus connecting 69th St. Terminal to King of Prussia(and anyone who rides the 125 knows how much this will help the overcrowding).
SEPTA is doing this for two reasons.
A: For more direct service to King of Prussia instead of riding the NHSL to Gulph Mills and transferring to the 125 anyway.
B: They finally figured out a real way to ease overcrowding. It's like our "Second Avenue subway" in a manner of speaking.
The route takes you along Market St. then West Chester Pike, along the Blue Route(I-476) and then the Schuykill Expressway(I-76) directly onto DeKalb Pike and King of Prussia.
Now all we need is a R-4........
Are all the work trains built to the same specs or are they built to serve one particular division? And how many are there?
P.S.-Does anyone know the MDBF of those R-110A/B's? Were they around long enough to find out?
The July 1997 12-month MDBF for the R110A was 19,988 miles, for the R110B 26,814 (both listed in the Subway FAQ). They are both still around so presumably statistics are still being kept.
Work trains are usually old passenger cars repainted and relegated to work duty. They were mostly of IRT lineage since they could be used on either division. Right now you will see mostly R17/R21/R22 work cars around but there are still some older ones. There was an order of work cars (the R127/R134) specifically as work cars. These look similar to the R62 with only the center doors on each side.
See Album: Work Cars,
and Corona Yard for some examples of each.
Just got back from Paris this morning, got on the 'net, came here and look what you guys did in three months!
I was impressed with the Illustrated Car roster and the tour of the lines(last time I checked it the Astoria and Woodlawn lines were just being put on there).
I managed to ride the metro. Nice experience, though directions were tough, my french isn't what it used to be.
I kept staring at those rubber tires under the trains. What the heck are they for? They had steel wheels.
Guess it's another French oddity.
I was also VERY upset to hear the Franklin shuttle, for now, is no more than a shuttle bus. No more City Hall tours. Last days of Day-One. R-110b's on the C!
What happened over the summer!!!!!!!!:~)>
(Oh yeah, I grew a "french goatee".)
Alex,
I don't know if it's the case on the system you rode, but I know at least some, if not all, rubber-tired subways use steel wheels and rails only for switching.
Going through some earlier posts, I saw that once the R-142's get there, The R-62's might be moved to the 7? NO!
Can't we lobby to the MTA? Let's us buffs have something to hold onto of the subway as it was(they're even getting rid of Dean St.-an abandoned station I REALLY like for some reason).
So I have started(:))PAROTS,or, People Against R-62's On The Seven(7).
The line just wouldn't look right with 62's.
Do I sound crazy or what?
Anybody want a cracker??
I was expecting that:)
Some parrots like nuts too;)
That's their LEADER :)
-Hank
The line will be given a fresh look. It's been Redbird City since it was created. Don't get me wrong, I love redbirds, but I certainly would think that it's nice to have that change.
And redbird debunkers can apply. But will you let them in?
And this isn't a REAL group, is it?
Fresh Look? Please. It's gonna start looking like every other subway line - boring stainless steel. If there's one thing I can't stand about the new subway equipment, it's that it all looks like a bunch of LIRR M-1 knockoffs. And don't get me started on how ugly I think the M-1 is, esp with 25 years of exceptional LIRR maintenence. Though if it lost that ugly headlight they added, and got cleaned up and got a better paint scheme....anyway. The subway has lost its well, subwayness. Stainless steel never looks right anyway. To shiny, cold, harsh. Looks out of place, and besides, graffitti vandals just "key" the stainless walls and the windows. So what if it takes forever to rust? I doubt any of the more recent cars will last as long as the redbirds have. It's just built too cheaply. Just like the M-1s will never last as long as the MP-54s, because they were built like crap (actually, I hear they already *are* talking about replaceing the fleet, which Imho, is pathetic given what those cars cost in the first place)
Personally, think every IRT line should be running R-62's except the 2. I ride the 7 whenever I go to New York and I always hope I'll be riding an R-62 to Shea and am always disappointed. They may be reliable and nice and all, but I think the R-62's would look nice on the line.
What's with these disagreements over squeezing another 5-10 years out of the Redbirds? Love 'em to death but there's new blood coming in.
We got over the R-30's didn't we?
The R-30s were a different kettle of fish altogether.
I understand that a few hundred Redbirds will be kept, since there are more of them than there are R-142s on order. If it turns out that only WF R-36s are kept, I'd like to see them remain on the Flushing line. That's where they've spent their entire careers (most of them, anyway); in fact, they've stayed on the 7 longer than the R-10s did on the A line. It's not too often that a series of subway cars will spend its entire career on one line. Some R-16s never left the Jamaica line.
The Achilles heel of the Redbirds is their susceptibility to corrosion. They may run fine, but they're useless if their bodies are rotting away.
Is there a possibility that the redbirds can be rebuilt into stainless steel cars. That way the original design isnt lost but they are grafitti proof. If this suggestion is just plain old crazy let me know
lol
("If this suggestion is just plain old crazy, let me know
lol")
This suggestion is just plain old crazy.
Lol.
oh..... i thought it might be but hey it was worth a shot.
lol
those redbirds are all thats left of the way the subway cars use to look when i was growing up. The new cars put on order are probably very cold and modern looking and im sorry but the new york subway isnt modern. It was made with a little class and style and with the redbirds leaving that might leave too
Now, now, the R-32s and R-38s aren't that bad. Their fluted sides give them a distinctive look. I still miss the blue doors on the R-32s, though, and I will miss the Redbirds, too.
I like those too but they lost their character when they were rebuilt. You cant even tell which train it is till the train passes right in front of you. What happened!!!!!
They even took the blue stripes from the R46s.
They got cute and put those ridiculous electronic pixel signs which, IMHO, are just plain too small. If they were larger, they would be easier to decipher. BTW, a handful of R-44s had similar electronic signs on their bulkheads. There is a photo of one those cars in New York Subway Cars with a nice, legible letter A. Why they weren't installed on the rest of the R-44s and R-46s is a good question. Probably cost.
As for the blue stripes on the R-46s (and, for that matter, the R-40s, R-42s, and R-44s), that was a throwback to the silver and blue MTA paint scheme of the 70s. Since stainless steel doesn't need to be painted anyway, the TA figured they could save a few bucks right then and there.
The more things change, the more they stay the same. Look back
40 years at the lamentations over the replacement of the Hi-Vs
by those "ugly" redbirds.
The same could be said about the BMT standards and Triplex units. Many Brooklynites hated to see those cars go.
Not all of the second generation IRT cars were originally red. The R-17s, for instance, were painted maroon; the R-21s, R-22s, R-26s, and R-28s were olive drab or whatever you would call that shade of green. Many, if not all, of these cars were repainted bright red before the silver and blue scheme was introduced. On the other hand, the R-29s, R-33s, and mainline R-36s came from St. Louis Car Co. decked out in fire engine red. I read that the current Redbird red shade is based on the red color used in Philadelphia.
No, you're NOT crazy. The & just wouldn't be the 7 with stainless equipment.
Which is why I keep saying that the new stuff should be painted red!!!!
I like that idea. R-62,R-62A and the R-62 Nasadowski edition.
Now what are you gonna do about the seats?
If everyone is so upset that we MAY be losing the redbirds, let's all chip in and buy one.
Then put it in front of the Staten Island Mall with a plaque that says-"To Mayor Hylan-How do you like dem apples?":):):):):):):):)
hello. my name is liz parker from jackson, mississippi of all places.
though i've never been on a subway i have gotten interested in them in the past couple of months, especially new york, chicago and philadelphia.
what is all the irt/bmt/ind stuff you're throwing around all the time. it sounds like something a buff should know. what or who are they?
(p.s.-the e-mail may not work.)
Howdy Liz, welcome to Subway Corral. If it's about subways, you won't find another place like this.
As to your question, if you mean you don't know what they are, they are the initials of what used to be three separate companys running various parts of the subway. I'll give a short summary and tell you that a great book to read is "Under The Sidewalks Of New York" by Brian Cudahy. That answers most questions.
The IRT was the original subway company(IRT stands for Interborough Rapid Transit) which ran NYC's first subway on October 27, 1904 from the now abandoned City Hall station.
The BMT(or Brooklyn-Manhattan Transit) has a long, sordid history.
Basically ran what a seasoned buff would consider the best lines(the Sea Beach, West End, Culver And Brighton[B,N,F and D/Q trains of today-check the transit maps section to see what I'm talking about.])
The IND was a city owned subway as the other two were private businesses. IND is short for Independent Subway.
To wrap up, if you have a map, these are what were IRT,BMT and IND lines(as all three eventually became the transit conglomerate New York City Transit subway system.
IRT-1,2,3,4,5,6,7,9 and Times square shuttle(S) lines
BMT-J,M,Z,N,R,L and B,D and Q lines in Brooklyn and the Franklin Shuttle(S) which is a dotted line on the latest map.
IND-A,C,E,G,F and B,D and Q in Manhattan and the Bronx and the Rockaway shuttle(Blue S) or some may call the H.
I hope that wasn't too confusing. I sure liked when I found info like this when I was a new buff.
The others on SubTalk know a lot more about it than I do. They're nice, just ask.
Liz,
Welcome! You might want to check out the Subway FAQ which is under construction but should be of use to you in getting started as a subway fan.
-Dave
Welcome Liz !
You'll find folks in cities all over the World contribute here, e.g. Germany & England. Also Boston, Washington D.C. & San Fran folks talk to us a lot. In addition bus types like me are tollorated if they're also interested in subways & trolleys. Speaking of which, understand you have some nice Trolleys there ?
In case you didn't know :^) NYC is a great vacation spot, if you should be visiting, let us know, we'll tell you where to go :^)
Mr t__;-)
Hello Liz
Not only is the New York City subway the most amazing collection of
electric trains ever assembled (it is MY PLAYGROUND and MY TRAIN SET)
it is the home of some of the most beautiful Works of Art in Tile ever assembled. Check out the "line-by-line" section of this web site for examples of this beautiful, hand-made mosaic work.
There are a number of different types of trains running around the
system, 22 to be exact. They go by the designation "R-" with two or
three digits, and sometimes a letter following. (examples:
R-32, R-40M, R-68A, R-110B etc.). The IND and BMT lines are lettered
and operate jointly; the IRT lines are numbered and operate alone.
The IND and BMT cars can not fit into some of the IRT's narrower tunnels. IND and BMT cars vary from 60 to 75 feet long; the IRT
cars are 51.5 feet long. All but 50 cars are air-conditioned (40 on
the IRT, 10 on the IND/BMT). There are almost 6,000 cars in service,
I don't have the exact number; I'd have to calculate it.
Any questions, just give one of us a holler!
Wayne (the L train) Whitehorne
Can anyone tell me how to fix my browser (Netscape 4.06 for Mac) so that I can change my e-mail address in messages posted in SubTalk? Even when I disable cookies, then re-enable them, Netscape still puts my old address in my message.
You've gotta toss your cookies! Sorry, couldn't resist.
Find where NS keeps its cookies (should be somewhere under
the Netscape folder) and delete them all.
That's the problem...I can't find them! I have loked in the Netscape folder and in the Netscape preferences. The only document I found was something called MagicCookie, which I moved, but it didn't help.
Well, that's Mac for you....."you don't need to know that"
I looked as well, couldn't find anything specific. I imagine
that removing the entire preferences folder would do the trick.
Of course, you'd lose some other stuff in the process.
Why don't you ask David Pirmann? Perhaps he can fix your problem
on his end.
Cookies are stored on the client side. I can't clear his cookies from my side. And I don't know anything about Macs, sorry...
That's the problem...I can't find them! I have looked in the Netscape folder and in the Netscape preferences. The only document I found was something called MagicCookie, which I moved, but it didn't help.
thank you for the help. i've been browsing through this site for the past couple of hours(it's that big!) and is more exhaustive than i thought. even a section on all the train wrecks. do all of you live in new york or do you just know a heck of a lot about the subway?
in whatever case, i'm glad i found a site like this.
as i mentioned, i'm interested in the subways in chicago and philadelphia(i thought they only had an el). does anyone know any sites like this about these cities too?
again, thanks for the help and i'll be here a while(still didn't get to the track maps(whew!))
Howdy Liz,
No, not all of us live in NYC. I live in Philadelphia(just a stone's throw compared to Jackson). There are posters from Chicago, Washington, suburban NYC, even a few from other countries.
As for sites of other cities, not to toot my own horn, but I and some others on this site have a wealth of knowledge about the system in Philadelphia(we've a lot more than an el-not a lot more-but more) or check out SEPTA's web page(SEPTA, our MTA, stands for SouthEastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority) with a website at www.septa.com. There is no comprehensive site about Philly transit like this but hopefully someone's working on it(maybe I'll try to do it myself if I ever take that Web page class I've been meaning to do).
Check out the transfer station section of this site. There are lists of links to other transit companies and pages, as well as New York's MTA.
I'm too long-winded so I'll shut up now.
I lived here all my life. And i loved the subways to death.
And I grew up in New York, moved to Arizona (with some stops along the way), and am reliving part of my youth through this site.
I guess there are a lot of reasons to ride this train.
BTW (by the way), I've been here daily for seveeral months, and I still haven't seen everything. No rush.
I'm a native Hoosier who lived back East for 13 years. During that time, I found myself in New York on a regular basis and became very familiar with the subway system. I now make my home in metro Denver, but still visit the Big Apple every fall for a few days and go on my traditional joyride up Central Park West on an A train. Thanks to this website, I feel as though I never left the East Coast.
I still have to remind my coworkers that I'm not from New York and have never lived there, although I still root for the Mets and Giants.
Born and raised in NYC, now living just outside it, I have been afflicted with the "subway gene". There's no known cure, but it can be managed throughout life by trying to infect as many people as you can with it. When it gets out of control, the urge to play motorman is too strong to ignore (kinda like a Big Mac attack a few years back). Many young boys and girls were not able to have electric trains growing up as kids, so many adopted the NYC subway system as their very own. And like those children, us older folk are just not willing to part with our toys :)
--Mark
I totally agree with you Mark!I'm living in the Boston area(Since 1976), but grew up in NYC (Queens). I came across this Website almost
by accident and have spent several months looking at all of the sites and leads connected to it.My girlfriend is starting to understand why I love the NYC Subway so much.No offense, but Boston just doesn't compare.Maybe I'd like the system better if you could see out of the front cab like my beloved R32,33,36,38 slant 40s, or better yet if they would use this type of equipment. I guess I better stop dreaming. Anyway, this website keeps me connected to the Subway system
so I feel like I'm still living there and it keeps me connected to my greatest memories of growing up with the subway.
Don't the Blue and Red lines (newer cars only) offer "cab" views?
--Mark
I guess if you consider the view from a passenger seat through
the front of the motorman's enclosed cab then yes you could see
the tracks and signals on the blue line.The motorman's compartment
is notaccesible by passengers, like the R42 and you can not walk
to other cars on the train.The orange and Red line are the same way.
I just wanted to say that I meant the cabs on the Boston-
Red,Orange and Blue Lines have an inaccesible motorman
compartment likke the R44, I said R42 by mistake.The green line is
a trolley line so there is a complete view from the front of the car.
If circumstances permit, I and the family will be headed to the town where everybody knows your name( or that's what the local bars proclaim). While in Boston, I will definately try the subway. If anyone out there in NYCSR Land knows about what to look for in Boston, what should I look for. Is it true they're just a bad as Chicago with the third rail thing?
If you haven't already made plans in a hotel ... one sits at the end of the Riverside Trolley line, just off Route 128, used to be the Day's Inn. From there the whole city is at your finger tips, i.e. just a pleasant Trolley ride away. The line goes direct down town, Park Street, I think, where you can begin you "walking tour" of old bean town or ride the Swan Boats. Keep going to Government Center/Durgan Park (tourest area). That line continues to the Science Museum. Or a bus to Old Iron Sides. That's just the Trolley line ....
If flying you can get the subway at the airport, Logan.
And I only lived there for a couple of years ...
P.S. Be sure to obtain the unlim passes, good on subways & buses, used to be sold in that hotel I was talking about. I seem to remember our regular contributor from Boston saying you have to go somewhere else now.
Mr t__:^)
That's right, Mr. T.
Unlimited passes for the T are available at North Station, South Station, Back Bay Station, Airport subway stop, and the Visitors' Center on the Common.
1 day - $5
3 days - $9
7 days - $18
(That's right... NYC's are a better deal given the base subway fare is $0.85 and the bus fare $0.60!)
Todd, or one of our other Boston friends:
It seems that the unlim passes are issued at key entrance points to the city, if you're comming in by air or rail, plus tourest central at the Commons .... so does the "T" allow travel agents to sell them OR how about mail orders (check or credit card) ?
If not, I guess our out of town friend could drive to South Station & buy the passes before heading to a hotel convient to the "T".
Mr t__:^)
I'm not aware of any other sales methods for the Boston "Visitor Passport" other than the outlets mentioned. Next time I find one, I'll grab a brochure and check.
BTW, I had to make a round-trip BOS-LGA-BOS this morning for a VERY quick meeting at the airport. The visibility was unlimited, and the approach for landing at LGA (Expressway Visual 31, which is along the north shore of LI, then over LGA at 4000', then over Manhattan at 3000', then down the Hudson, to the Statue, to the Maspeth "tanks," to the Kew Gardens interchange, to Shea, to landing) was SPECTACULAR. So many train yards and lines to see... so little time!
Aha! So it was YOU who was using a camera during an approach that caused the plane to drop 700 feet before it landed!! :)
"Railfan causes plane to lurch on approach" screams the headline :)
--Mark
Hey Mark! Don't forget me! I need another Astoria tape like the one you just sold me! Please E-mail me "jangreen@chesco.com"
Thanks, Chuck
Chuck ... sent you e-mail to the address you listed. --Mark
Yes, as advertized on WCBS AM ... I could see all the way to CT as I drive along the Cross Island Pky.
Mr t__:^)
The #1 stop should be the Ashmont-Mattapan section of the Red Line. It's a real, live "high speed" trolley line, run with PCCs. After that, it won't be hard to ride the rest of the subway/trolley system in one day. Take a spin on a trackless trolley in Cambridge, and a hop on a commuter rail line to complete your visit!
Good ideas so far. The Mattapan-Ashmont Line is my personal favorite on the "T" - but there are some other great lines as well:
(1) Take the Blue Line past the Airport stop and see it change from third rail to overhead wire. It's then outdoors all the way to the end of the line (Suffolk Downs?) - using the right of way of the old Boston, Revere Beach, and Lynn RR, a unique narrow gauge line that quit in 1940 or so.
(2) Take one of the Green Line routes (aside from Riverside) along the median of Beacon Street or Commonwealth Ave to see what light rail was like before it became a politically correct term. On the other side of Park Street, take a Green Line "CAAH" to Lechmere (LEECHMEAH) , crossing a high bridge over the Charles.
(3) Ride the Red Line from Ashmont (after you get off the high speed trolley) through central Boston to Alewife (Cambridge) - you'll see old (1912) and new (1980's) subway construction. Highlight is another nice bridge over the Charles, with a view of the "St. Elsewhere" hospital on the Boston side.
(4) Finally, the Orange Line from Downtown Crossing to Forest Hills traverses a 1987 replacement route that runs alongside T commuter rail and Amtrak NE Corridor.
Boston is one of my favorite cities (even though I'm a died in the wool New Yawkeh and a Yankee fan). Eat at one of the Italian restaurants in the North End - wonderful! And BTW, I love Boston accents - they do wonders with my last name!
1. The end of the Blue Line is Wonderland
2. Try to fit in a ride on the E (Heath) on the Green Line. From Brigham Circle to Heath, you'll ride the last section of track that runs on the street in traffic!
Is it hahd to pahk your cahr?
Here in Denver, I don't hear that trademahk Bahston accent too often. There was a radio commercial a few years back for a local (as opposed to express - smirk) seafood restaurant called the Chowder House narrated by a gentleman with a thick Bahston accent. His last line was, "Pahk in the back, and you're right back in Bahston."
During my days at UConn, we came up to Boston twice to play B. U. at Nickerson Field (the school dropped football at the end of last year). We came down Commonwealth Ave., and I remember seeing streetcars, which naturally piqued my interest. I remember thinking there was something very familiar about Nickerson Field - that's where Braves Field used to be.
<< 3) Ride the Red Line from Ashmont (after you get off the high speed trolley) through central Boston to Alewife (Cambridge) - you'll see old (1912) and new (1980's) subway construction. Highlight is another nice bridge over the Charles, with a view of the "St. Elsewhere" hospital on the Boston side. >>
I thought the portion of the el line by the "St. Elsewhere" hospital was torn down?
That's true. The "St. Elsewhere" hospital was near the old Orange Line el, now long gone.
The Red Line goes over the Longfellow Bridge (a.k.a. the Salt & Pepper Bridge - since the towers look like salt and pepper shakers), from which you can see Mass General Hospital.
Todd - thanks for correcting me. I guess you mean that the "St. Elsewhere" hospital was on Washington Street. But wasn't there an opening shot on every show that showed a Red Line train stopping at Charles Street and then crossing the Longfellow Bridge?
Yes on both accounts! St. Eligius (Elsewhere) is/was on Mass. Ave. near Washington Street. The Red Line shot near Charles Street is close to Mass. General Hospital.
A weekend isn’t enough time to cover everything in Boston. There are four light rail lines running out of the subway. You must ride each, because they all have their own unique character. And talk about character, don’t miss the Ashmont-Mattapan High Speed Line operated by PCC cars. It is part of the Red Line and you board the cars at Ashmont Station. Secondly, there are the RT lines that run with "exposed" overrunning third rail, just like Chicago. However, the Blue Line to Wonderland changes to overhead catenary outside the subway. Of course there are the ETB lines out of the Harvard (Red Line) Station. And lastly, there are the commuter rail lines out of North and South Stations. My personal favorite is the line to Rockport. A scenic ride that ends in a little village by the ocean. You can also take the opportunity to ride the new "Old Colony" lines out of South Station.
Like I said, not enough time! Definitely purchase a Boston Passport which is sold at many "T" locations. It is the best way to hop on and off the transit vehicles. Enjoy!
Before you leave visit the "T" web-site at http://www.mbta.com/. The site has quite a bit of useful information.
Also, don't miss Scott Moore's
New England Transportation Site for additional Boston transit information. The site was just updated yesterday (22 Sep), and contains all sorts of good stuff.
Timothy, I couldn't agree with you more. In fact, I'm going over there right now.
I confused myself. The Fulton Street(Brooklyn) express tracks are used by the 'C' right? Or better yet, they are in daily revenue service, right?
Now we have to question weather you're talking about Philly or NYC.
Mr t__;-)
A trains normally use Fulton Street express tracks Mon - Fri, 6 AM - 9 PM. C trains cover local stops during those hours, terminating at Euclid Ave in East New York.
After 9 PM weeknights, and all day Sat and Sun, A trains make all local stops along Fulton Street.
Isn't it true that the A now runs express along Fulton St. until 10:00 PM on weeknights?
If the CTA Blue line does get extended to Schaumburg, do you think new faster trains will be added or the older cars will be modified to go faster, or a combo of both?
It does look now about a 50-50 chance the extension will be done. The RTA is doing a study ( Year long study) that will be complete in the Spring of 1999.
Anyway, beacuse of the long streches the Blue line already goes through, and the Schaumburg extension would be aprox. 13 miles long with only 3 stations could faster trains be used? This would be an excellent chance for the CTA to go faster then 55 because the people are begging the RTA to extend the line, even mayor Daily was confronted by the Mayor's of Schaumburg, Elk Grove, Ect. and the government could grant the money as an experiment similar to the very Awesome experiment of the Midway Orange Line.
What do ya Think?
BJ
As a daily rider of the CTA, I am not a proponent of the extension to Schamburg. I feel this money could be better spent to repair/rebuild existing 100 year plus structures. As I ride the Ravenswood train to downtown every morning I wonder how much longer the old steel structure will hold out. Not to mention the condition of the Douglas, or Cermak, branch of the Blue Line.
CTA trains on the Blue and Orange Lines now exceed 55 MPH. Although the ATC will not allow the trains to "take power" over 55 MPH, they can coast at speeds of higher than the normal system maximum without experiencing a penalty brake application.
Back to the question of the Schamburg extension. It looks like chances are good that it will get the federal money and will be built. There is STRONG support in the villages. However, if the people who the line is primarily intended to serve, those living in the city and working in the suburbs, don’t have a reliable connection to the Blue Line, what good is a new line?
So suburbanites have finally awoken to the contradiction between wanting the keep the poor out of their towns (for lower taxes, better services and higher property values) and wanting to have businesses, a tax base, and services which rely on poor workers. And not wanting poor people to drive, adding congestion on the street and blocking the path of their beloved automobiles.
The solution -- ship them in on transit then ship them out before nightfall! CAN YOU SAY SOWETO? I have a better idea. For businesses which do not rely on local demand (office parks, factories) move them (and the taxes they pay) back into the city, where transit already exists. And to staff the shopping malls and provide the maids, change the zoning to allow the conversion of one family houses to two-family houses or rooming houses in at least some of the towns -- and have moderate income workers move in, and their children attend suburban schools.
Why am I, a city resident, being taxed to pay for investments to accomodate the relocation of the tax base out of the cities? In favor of government spending because it helps the poor? Wake up -- this isn't 1965.
[The solution -- ship them (urban workers) in on transit then ship them out before nightfall! CAN YOU SAY SOWETO? I have a better idea. For businesses which do not rely on local demand (office parks, factories) move them (and the taxes they pay) back into the city, where transit already exists. And to staff the shopping malls and provide the maids, change the zoning to allow the conversion of one family houses to two-family houses or rooming houses in at least some of the towns -- and have moderate income workers move in, and their children attend suburban schools.]
It's hard to imagine that a significant number of suburban businesses would consider relocating to the city. Most of them already have found facilities that satisfy their needs and have staffed themselves with mostly local residents. Why go through the expense and disruption of moving? I doubt that reverse commuters make up more than a small percentage of the workforce at most suburban businesses, so the proximity to transit really isn't a big deal. It would make a lot more sense for the city to cultivate new businesses than to attempt to lure ones from the suburbs - as we all know, two can play at that game.
[Why am I, a city resident, being taxed to pay for investments to accomodate the relocation of the tax base out of the cities?]
Everyone pays taxes that benefit other people rather than themselves. For instance, suburban residents pay taxes that pay for urban welfare and Medicaid. The best we can hope for is that everything more or less evens out.
Reverse commuting is growing, but the real traffic killer is suburb-to-suburb commuting. Drive along I-287 or US-1 in New Jersey during the rush hours and you will see what I mean.
I think that most reverse commuters are better paid than Mr. L. implies, suburban firms can get low-wage help from the surrounding towns with short commutes. I don't have the figures but would guess that the vast majority of SI to NJ and Bronx to Westchester reverse-commuters use autos. The only exception would be for those who work in Jersey City's growing financial district which is more easily accessed by the PATH and even NJT buses from surrownding NJ towns than by autos.
Those elevated structures in Chicago were overbuilt, to say the least. My aunt sent me an article from the Chicago Tribune which had a feature story on the Green line being rebuilt. Those lines were engineered before they even had slide rules; the philosophy was if you needed a structure which would have to handle 1000 tons, you built it to handle 2000. Even so, you're right: nothing lasts forever, and it may be time to at least consider rebuilding the Ravenswood line.
IMHO, the money could be better spent on bringing back full-time conductors on the Red and Blue lines.
To Steve B.
Nothing lasts for ever. Sooner or later the ‘L’ structures built circa 1900 must be rebuilt or replaced. I would say sooner than later, however, as a daily rider I’m not looking forward to that disruption of service. If the CTA thinks it will be able to "bus" the riders of the Brown (Ravenswood) and the Purple (Evanston) trains during the process, they better start thinking about another alternative.
A comment on the conductors for Blue and Red Line trains. This was the worst decision made be the CTA in recent history. However, the CTA will NOT back down on this one. I only hope nobody gets hurt or killed due to this short sighted decision.
I agree that the CTA Should renovate the Brown Line & The Cermak Blue Line.
The money for these projects has already been granted and the Blue Line Cermak/Douglas is being planned, the ground level portion is already done being planned. Before they got the money for the Blue Line Cermak the brown line was in the planning stages for renovation.
The CTA will proabaly do the Blue Line and then the Brown line when it is done.
Another question, do you think that because the money has already been granted for both of these projects the CTA will try to get money for the Schaumburg extension in the meantime?
Also: So you are saying that the trains could go faster if the third rail was modified?
I know one thing, it would be an awesome ride from Forest Park or 54th to Woodfield Mall!! Especially with high speed portions!
BJ
ironies to ponder dept. before the Bay Area Rancid Transit began revenue service the fastest rt equipment in North America was a group of "hot-rodded" CTA 6000's--my favorite L cars. They were clocked on the Embankment section north of Wilson ave doing 75+--this was 1960 or 61 if memory serves. And yes a speed run can be fun. Even atr regular speeds a CERA trip some years back non-stop from 35 thru the tunnasl to Fullerton was not too shabby. About structures--I can remember when slow orders were instituted beyond 61st st on the Jackson Park line as the L was swaying too much.
Those 6000s could haul a-- in the State St. subway. They were also LOUD! That goes for the 2600s, too, especially in the Dearborn subway.
The ear piercing noise that riders on the 2200's & 2600's must endure can be attributed to the CTA's lack of rail grinding. This was relayed to me by Mr. George Krambles during the 'L' charter during the CERA 60 year anniversary.
I had complained about lack of insulation in the cars, however, Mr. Krambles stated it is quite a bit louder in the Dearborn subway. He should know about rail maintenance, as he was associated with the CTA for over 40 years, the last position being GM, and then VP of the CTA.
No argument on that, although the noise level is still pretty loud in the State St. subway, too. It wasn't so bad when the 2000s ran on the Red line; perhaps they had some soundproofing. I don't think the 6000s did, though - they were as noisy as the 2600s are now.
I wonder if anyone ever tried to sue the CTA for hearing loss from prolonged exposure to subway noise.
Hey, that's an idea! I've been looking for a scam. All I need is an out-of-work lawyer to prove the CTA was responsible for my recent hearing loss. Maybe I could relieve CTA of part of the money they "realized" recently attributed to the new fare collection system. I think they, the CTA, referred to the "found" money as "schrinkage". In my book it is called stealing!
Maybe it could be class action suit bringing in people who have used the subway for years.
What are you talking aout the CTA Stealing the money made from the fare collection system? It was the other way around before. Station agents would steal money when they collected it and people would cheat on paper fares and use them day and some even weeks after issued!
As far as the fare-card expiring, if you "check the value" on a card 60 days old or older the machine will automatically give you a new one with same value on it ( according to "getting around" in the Chicago Tribune). And a year is a long time to be using one card, if you need to use it over a month get a new one or a monthly pass!
I think it is great that the CTA is within visible distance of being financially out of debt. Conductors or 54th Week-end service will be a long fought battle with the cta to get back though!
And I agree with you about the Subway being way to noisy! You can't even hear the rules or stations which could get the cta in trouble because they say they stated the rules over the PA, but that isn't no good if you can't hear them!
Between Lake/State and Fullerton on the red line and Clark Lake and Damen on the Blue are really bad for your ears!
BJ
BJ - re-read my posting. I sorry I didn't make it obviously clear, however, it was my intention to point out the the employee's, station agents and conductors, were stealing lot's of money. I can't think how many time I'd witness someone ahead of me paying their $1.50 and the agent "rang it in" as a transfer.
Anyway, I like the new fare collectin system. I put $20 a week on my card, and the CTA gives me an extra $1.50. This is usually enough to get me through the week. The only compliant I have with the fare card system is the ackward postion of the reader on the buses and the "out of service" turnstiles at Belmont/Sheffield.
Then who was it that said he would like to get some of the stolden or extra money that CTA has come accross lately?
Was it you that had the hearing loss problem or someone else?
And i have never used the Belmont Station. I have used Addison a ton of times and It is one of the best stations on the system!
What I don't get is why there aren't MORE then 6 or 7 turnstiles
at stations like Addison or Washington, Monroe, or Jackson
But then there are 10 entry and 10 JUST FOR EXIT at Roosevelt on the green and Orange Lines! Also there are allot at Chicago & State!
BJ - Look around the stations you are using. The Addison (Red Line) Station was recently rebuilt and has a large station house. It also has twice the number of turnstiles that normal CTA stations do. This is because it was designed to collect fares from large numbers of people leaving a ball game. Secondly, the Roosevelt Rd ('L' Station) was recently built. It, like all of those on the Orange Line, have larger station houses.
You site the stations in the State Street Subway. These were built in the early 1940's, following the design of the old elevated stations. Most of the old elevated companies built station houses at gound level to collect fares. These are small in comparison to the newer design like Addison and Roosevelt.
So, you get Belmont/Sheffield, which has four turnstiles and collects at least as many fares that Addison does with its eight turnstiles.
For the record, I don't know that there is more that 4 or 5 turnstiles at Chicago/State. Unless they added more recently.
I am currently working on building a cab view subway/Railroad simulator. Below is information I need to make a realistic I need the following information to complete it. Send me this information for ANY
NYC Subway; ANY Metro-North , LIRR, AMTRAK, or NJT Locomotive or MU; and/or ANY Trolley/Interurban/LRV.
Info Needed:
Weight
Max. Tractive Effort
# of Powered wheelsets
Top Speed
Tractive Weight
# of positions on throttle
The Following Locos / M.U.'s should be availible For this simulation
(note: The presence of these loco'c/M.U.'s dependson how much info I can get about them)
Planed Loco's ---- Planed MU's-----
F-40PH R-40 (NYCTA)
AMD-103 R-32 (NYCTA)
F-7 R-33 (NYCTA)
E-8 R-1/9 (NYCTA)
GG-1 R-68 (NYCTA)
EP-5 R-16 (NYCTA)
AEM-7 PA-1 (PATH)
E-44 Arrow II (NJT)
E-33 Brill Bullet Interurban
F-59PHI Electro-Liner
RS-3 M-2 (Metro North)
American Flyer Jewett Interurban
TGV Lo-V (IRT)
Will this be a computer program where the "view" on the monitor will be down the tracks? Sounds neat!
If it includes R-1/9 sounds (or even R-10 sounds), that would be even better!
To whom It may interest,
The goals I have for the program are as followed
-Realistic Cab View
-Realistic Starting/stoping and Handeling of train
-Realistic Signals (No cab signals planed at this time)
-Realistic Sound (This is Hard! )
Any sugestions are gladly accepted. Please feel free toe-mail me.
-Philip Dominguez
Will you offer it for sale through the Sub board?
Is there any buff or transit personnel that has seen the general order for the route of the 4 Railway Preservation Corporation Cars?
Cheers,
Constantine Steffan
Nope, but on another note, which SubTalkers will be there? We should all at least say hello on the train. I'll try to wear my Coney Island Overhaul hat (if i remember to bring it that is).
-dave
I'll be there. I'll try to wear my 614 tee shirt and my "engineer's hat"(which I bought at Port Jervis)
Heh...it sounds like everyone else is gonna be there sunday too. I'll probbly be wearing one of my infamous Corrosion of Conformity T shirts, and tagging a mom along. Hope this thing doesn't run extra late, as I need to get back up to Hartford by noon monday (though my profesor just might understand)!!!! I think the last slamtrak to Springfield/Hartford is either 6 or 9. This could be interesting :)
I will be there, too!! I will be wearing my SEPTA Rail System map
T-shirt. I'm from the Philly area.
In my last post, I mentioned that I will be wearing a SEPTA Rail
System map T-shirt. I will instead be wearing a T-shirt with a
picture of the new M-4 (Market-Frankford Line) car, that says "The
Future Of SEPTA"..."The New El".
Well, I wish I could be there. But I can't. However if I COULD, I'd be wearing my CBS News hat, WCBS T-shirt, and Seashore Trolley Museum jacket. I trust many SubTalkers will be taking photos for posting on this site for us to enjoy.
Hey Tim! Where did you get that "t" shirt with the M-4 on it?
I'm close to Philly and would love to have one!
Chuck Greene
I've sent in my check and still haven't seen my ticket, but I intend to be there anyway. I don't know what I'll be wearing yet since the weatherman can't make up his mind what the weather's supposed to be like that day.
Hey, Tim, maybe we'll finally hook up?
The weatherman CAN make up his mind. But maybe he just won't say :-)
You may yet receive it. I got my ticket in the mail on Tuesday.
--Mark
Hi Tim, I would like to get information on how I could purchase both
of those types of t-SHIRTS If they are still being sold,that is a
mail address Im looking for, it's too far to drive from Boston to Philly for two t-shirts.
I'll be there wearing my matching Lo-V T-shirt.
Hope I find it :)
--Mark
I'll be there in spirit. One of these days, Alice, one of these days... No, not POW! BANG ZOOM!, but I've got to be in New York for one these fantrips. It just kills me when I know about these trips, and at the same time realize I can't make it. Timing is everything. I'm going to have to buy a few of those fantrip videos.
I will be in attendence.
It will be good to finally meet you Dave.
I'll be on the trip. I'll have a TA radio on my left hip & a cell phone on my right. I will be with my teenage son who is about the same height as me, but certainly not the same girth. I too, would like to meet other sub-talk contributors on the trip. I'll wear my PRR GG1 tuscan red T-shIRT
Info, please! Where, when, any spaces left, how much, commemorative metrocards... :)
You're probably too late to order tickets-- I would guess by now it is sold out. You could show up at see-- the trip departs from Grand Central shuttle track 1 at 10:00am Sunday (Subday?) 9/27/1998. Someone will probably be able to post a phone number for the sponsors (Railway Preservation Corp.)
-Dave
Contact Railway Preservation Corporation at (718) 855-1499. Fax number is (718) 624-0306.
By now it's likely sold out. Just got my ticket in the mail yesterday.
--Mark
Thru all the postings no one answered Constantine's question.
I guess we will find out what the trip will cover when we get there.
Oh yeah - I will be wearing a subway car pin either in my lapel or on my waist pack. (It is supposed to be an R-62 but it has a tiny "A" on it. It is one of those pins made by City Merchandise and sold in a lot of the souvenier stores in midtown).
See you all there.
Cars 5290, 5292, 5443, and 5483 leave Westchester Yard after 8:00 a.m. Proceed to Grand Central Shuttle, Track 1. Leave Grand Central Shuttle at 10:30 a.m. To Brooklyn Bridge, loop, to 125th Street, then to Westchester Yard. From Westchester Yard to E.177th Street, lunch there, while train lays up on Track M. Down to 86th Street, to 239th Street Yard, loop, E. 180th Street, Dyre Avenue, 86th Street, Burnside (#4), where the excursion ends. Train lays up to Coney Island Yard.
Thanks to triplex for furnishing the general order information on the trip. It will be a good trip for all. Now, if they could just get 4902 or 5655 out, this would even be better! Imagine the only trailer in existence to operate. 4902 is at the Museum, and my colleagues haven't let that out. 5655 is the World's Fair motor which unfortunately hasn't faired to well over the years. It's waiting for a complete restoration at Coney Island. Thanks to Dave Pirmann for promoting the West Fest pix at Westchester Yard. And for anyone whose interested, I'll be wearing a Conrail hat that says "SHUT 'EM DOWN AND SAVE" (see you there, Dave). For those of you who can't be with us on Sunday, be sure to join us on Sunday, October 18 for the Transit Museum Nostalgia Special. Using 1928 D-Type TRIPLEXES, we'll be travelling to Coney Island by the Brighton and Sea Beach lines, to and from 57 St and 7th Av. Reserve your tickets now by calling Mark Watson or Clarence Whitehall at (718) 243-8601. This is the Education Department of the NY Transit Museum.
Cheers To All Train Buffs,
Constantine Steffan
Constance:
Thanks to you (and Dave) for sharing the Westchester Yard scenes.
Will try to say hello Sunday!
BTW am I correct in assuming that "TGC2" is a Track Geometry Car?
Marty
I'll see you there, Marty. I'm glad that I could help Dave. There are more photos on the way to him. Scanning quality wasn't great. I'm trying to improve on it. TGC2 is a track geometry car. Dave: Make note that TGC2 is a track geometry car so our viewers will know.
-Constantine
TGC2. I had the opportunity to ride it all day and "work on the railroad" a few years back. The last Transit Museum auction and tag sale offered a day on TGC2 with an opening bid of $50. I bid, no one counterbid. What a great day that was! Too bad I didn't have a camera with me at that time. Even got to operate it from 125th & Lex to 180th St yard. It's operated with a joystick and a separate brake handle. You'd have to be real careful not to "floor" the joystick because you'd make the wheels spin. The crew was surprised how smooth I was operating it having never operated the car before.
I have a flyer on it around here somewhere, and I think the system used to take track measurements was called ORIAN. At the time I was on the car, ORIAN was booted off a floppy! I'll try to find the flyer and get a copy over to Dave ... it may make a good caption for the photos.
--Mark
Oops
Sorry Constantine.....One of these days I'll learn to preview before posting
And I'm flying into LGA on Monday, Oct. 19. Yet another missed fantrip. Go figure.
If the GO supplied by Triplex is correct, do you think Rudy knows where the Brooklyn Bridge Loop Is?
Maybe we will be strip searched to avoid disembarking and reboarding
I don't think we'll be able to detrain at City Hall Loop; just the same, better bring your passport just in case :)
--Mark
Say Mark
Maybe we will have to detrain and retrain at Worth St ;-)
I also expect the "routes not built" tour to be affected somehow; we probably won't go to the lower level of the BMT City Hall station either. :(
--Mark
Our Subway Open; 150,000 Try It
Mayor McClellan Runs the First Official Train
Big Crowds Ride at Night
Average of 25,000 an Hour From 7 PM Till Past
Midnight
Exercises in the City Hall
William Barclay Parsons, John B. McDonald, August
Belmont,
Alexander E. Orr and John Starin Speak; Dinner
at Night
MCCLELLAN MOTORMAN OF FIRST SUBWAY TRAIN
Mayor Used Silver Controller to Start Official Train
KEPT UP EXPRESS SPEED
Company had Expected Its Motor Instructor
to Replace Him After the Start
THINGS SEEN AND HEARD ALONG THE UNDERGROUND
Experiences Here and There of Nascent Subwayites
MR. BAKER RIDES ON A PASS
Timid One Buys a Ticket to Use Five Years Hence – Admiral Coghlan’s Final Word
Any of these headlines look familiar to you? Well, if you were reading the New York Times of October 28th, 1904, these articles would go on to describe "Day One". I am nearly 90% done transcribing these articles from microfilm (they do NOT scan well at ALL, the microfilm I used at the NY Public Library is damaged and I really wanted to read the Times coverage of the event.) and will be passing them on to Dave Pirmann for eventual posting on the site. It's about as close as any of us could get to Opening Day without being there. Some of the text also, amazingly, rings true 94 years later.
(And be nice to me - my fingers are tired! I'm buying myself some voice dictation software PRONTO!)
Stay TUNED!
--Mark
Mark:
Good project. Have you ever eaten at a Subways Sub Shop? All this stuff is literally plastered over their walls. Where did they get the originals from?
You took the words right out of my mouth. You're absolutely right - Subway restaurants have reproductions of newspaper accounts of Day One, including general guidelines about using the subway as well as numerous drawings and photos. All stations are listed; the outside platforms at Brooklyn Bridge, Union Square, and 96th are mentioned as well. There is even mention of being able to change from local to express across the platform without paying an additional fare at express stations.
I read that Mayor McClellan inaugurated service on #3340 or 3341, and that he had so much fun running the train that he didn't give up the controls until they had reached 103rd St. Supposedly, that train did 40 mph for most of its run, and when asked if maybe he should let the IRT motorman on board take over, His Honor snapped, "This is MY train and I'm running it!", or something like that. Just like a little kid. No doubt he would have loved to pilot an A train of R-10s up CPW!
I'm still willing to bet that Seashore's Gibbs 3352 was in on the action on Day One, manual doors and all (I wonder if it was part of the inaugural train). According to Brian Cudahy in Under the Sidewalks of New York, there were 103 Gibbs Hi-Vs on the property on Day One, and if they were delivered in numerical sequence, 3352 would have been included since the Gibbs cars started with 3350. This is pure speculation; I don't know if any records were kept as to which number cars were delivered when.
> I read that Mayor McClellan inaugurated service on #3340 or 3341,
> and that he had so much fun running the train that he didn't give up
> the controls until they had reached 103rd St. Supposedly, that train
> did 40 mph for most of its run, and when asked if maybe he should
> let the IRT motorman on board take over,
> His Honor snapped, "This is MY train and I'm running it!", or
> something like that. Just like a little kid. No doubt he would have
> loved to pilot an A train of R-10s up CPW!
There was one article that looked like it may have discussed this, but I didn't have a complete copy. I need to examine the microfilm a second time and get what I missed (you only get 30 minutes at the NY public library microfilm printers and it's a long wait). The Mayor would have kept the train linger, but he got tired of holding down the controller.
> I'm still willing to bet that Seashore's Gibbs 3352 was in on the
> action on Day One, manual doors and all (I wonder if it was part of
> the inaugural train)....
The NY Times articles went into some detail about the number of passengers entering stations on Day One, as well as the schedule (for example, the first train left at "2:35 and 1/2 o'clock"), but it didn't mention anything about which cars made up the inaugural train.
Now, regarding the subway sandwich shops, I'd look pretty funny trying to scan the wallpaper!
--Mark
Beats me, but most of the Subway "subway wallpaper" looked like it was slightly later, from the BMT era.
--Mark
Speaking of the BMT, one of their sandwiches is bears that name. You should see the looks on the faces of those kids behind the counter when I suggest having sandwiches called IRT and IND. I have to explain all about the three divisions, etc., etc. Oh well, I run into a lot of people who've never been to New York.
If you can find me a CBS Sports, US Open Tennis 1998 lapel pin, I can
give Adam a 1998 US Open Metrocard! Please help us.
I'm afraid I don't have a source of CBS pins :-(
As most SubTalkers know, I "freelance" for WCBS in NYC one or two weekends per month, but my "day job" is in Boston for an unrelated organization.
And when I'm at WCBS, we're in a building that is separate and apart from the CBS network. I'll ask around next time I'm at WCBS (mid-October), but I'm not too optimistic I can find any.
I can't ask for anything more!
Currently, IRT Conductors and Train Operators are picking new jobs. The new pick is to go into effect Sunday October 11. All runs on the 3 are from 148/Lenox to New Lots and all runs on the 2 are from 241 to Flatbush. This implies that the Lenox Ave Rehab project will be complete by 2359 Saturday, October 10.
Is anyone going to come watch the fun when trains resume their normal routes and confuse all those new riders that have entered the system since the July 4 introduction of unlimited ride Metrocards?
In the latest G.O. bulletin I;ve seen dated 09/17/1998, the G.O. is canceled (completed) as of 10/10/1998
Buff--
What's funny, though, is that MTA-NYCT has weekend bus shuttle service between 96th and 149th Streets through 5 AM Monday, October 12.
Does that make Sunday a test period, or will they really be wrapping up work that day? If the latter's the case, good thing Monday's a govt holiday (Columbus Day). It gives everyone a chance to get use to the "new-old" system.
Michael
I just called MTA/Transit Customer Service (718-330-3322) and asked for the "1998 Subway Guide." The agent told me there is NO SUCH THING! She said someone else called earlier for one (gee - a SubTalker???), that she asked her supervisor, and they have concluded there is no such product.
Does anyone know of anything to the contrary?
I called about 1:30pm today and the woman simply took my name and address and asked me how many I wanted (I asked for two), and that was it. My perception of our phone conversation is that this item does exist and she seemed to know that. I didn't get her name though.
--Mark
I confess (I think)! They told me around 10:00 this morning they had no subway guides--after leaving me on hold for around three minutes (on a toll call, no less).
Are there any at the museum? I could call there, I guess.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Todd I calledthat very same number for a bus guide in which they connected me to the bus dept. I asked the guy at bus for the bus guide and also asked if there was subway guide also in which he told me he had some sample copys of the subway guide there that he would send me a copy whcih he did along with the bus guide. He told me that this is the first time for the subway guide so maybe they don't have many printed at the moment. I can't understand why they told you there was no such thing. You should call them back and tell them they should learn there job a little better. Hope you can get a copy of the guide.
FOllowing in the tracks of my NYC station by station, I am doing pages for the Philly subway including Market Frankford, Broad Street, Ridge Spur and PATCO. Anyone having info such as pix or trivia/history lease e-mail me on the site. You will be given photo credit.
I am planning field trips to do these lines station by station.
I am especially interested in any info that jack or BobW may have since they seem to be Philly people.
Prior to my move to Chicago, I lived many years just outside Philadelphia and spent many hours riding both the "El" as the MKT-FKD line and the "subway" as the BSS are locally referred to. I have some items that may be of interest to you. One item is a mimeographed history that was sent to me by the old PTC (Philadelphia Transportation Company - previous private owner before SEPTA). It describes the history of all the lines, and briefly explains their respective specifications and operation. I can make a copy of this available to you if you are interested. Secondly, you may want to secure a copy of Harold Cox book "The Road To Upper Darby". I am not sure if it is in print any longer, and I don’t know if Mr. Cox is still alive. It is invaluable if you want detailed history of the Market Street Railway, as it was know when it was first constructed. The book pays some attention to the BSS, Ridge Spur, and Locust Line as they relate to the MKT-FKD. It also addresses the connections offered by the PST (Philadelphia Suburban Transportation Company - previous private owner before SEPTA).
Unfortunately, I do not have any pictures as I was not into photographing in the late 1960’s and 1970’s, the time I was riding the system most actively.
At my age, I remember when the soon to be retired Budd Cars were first delivered to the line. I spent a great deal of time riding those cars on Saturday excursions to the city. I have very fond memories of the line, and remember when the Frankford El didn’t run in the median of I-95.
To Jim K:
I would like a copy. you can send to me at:
Peggy darlington
93 Jersey Ave
Edison, NJ 08820
Nice to know SOMEBODY with expertise is doing this. Thanks, Peggy.
I'll e-mail you with some info you may find useful.
I've been here all my life(minus four short months in Crown Heights Brooklyn) and get a kick out of riding the trains end-to-end(somethings i've done hundreds of times).
There are some interesting stories to our subway. We have only two abandoned stations(yes, I count Adams Ave.), but ours is a nice system.
I'll try to find a link for you that has all kinds of technical data and can try to send you some pictures I have(including some of the new M-4 cars in action).
Are the two stations Adams Ave. and the old Fairmount Station (pre- Spring Garden)? I went to a community response meeting on the possibility of extending either the Broad St. or Mkt. Frankford Line up the Boulevard to Woodhaven Rd. I doubt either will happen, but the old Adams Ave station was mentioned. This is the old sealed-up station under the now levelled SEARS complex on the Boulevard, right?
As far as I know the Adams Ave station is gone. It was built under the parking garage in the Sears complex that was close to the Blvd/Whitaker intersection (northeast corner). Many folks are fooled by the underpass further east on the Blvd, which is merely that - there is no subway station there. The Pennway St/Northeast Freeway median subway was to turn off the Blvd at Whitaker and then go northward (as the streets, not the compass, go) from there. Unless someone knows different about the status of the station, I don't think it was preserved when the remainer of the Sears site was demolished.
I was heading to the city on the New Jersey Turnpike this morning when I saw one of those new MTA city buses. At first I thought it was coming from some plant or something until I saw the route number in the back whch read "X17". When I was able to drive side by side to it, I saw passengers on the bus which was to my suprise. I was able to read the destination sign in the front. The bus was an express bus that was heading to midtown via New Jersey. Then later on I saw another one with the route number being "X31". Both buses were traveling along the NJT heading towards the Lincoln Tunnel. Does anyone know about this and if so, explain where the buses began there trips from.
-GarfieldA
I believe these are express routes from Staten Island that cross into New Jersey on the Goethals Bridge and continue on the NJTpk to midtown.
The x17 runs from Woodrow Rd and Huguenot Ave down Huguenot, Drumgoole Rd, Arden Av, Arthur Kill Rd, and Richmond Av to the SIE westbound to the Goethals Bridge, Then they take the NJTP to the Lincoln Tunnel, down 34st to their regular route uptown. Only the first 5 trips operate via NJ to midtown. The rest follow the normal route via Brooklyn. Trips to SI follow the regular Brooklyn routing.
The x31 runs from Arthuur Kill Rd and Richmond Ave via Richmond Ave to the SI Mall, then follows the s61/91 rt to the SIE, then follows the same route as the x17 to Manhattan. All x31 inbound trips follow this route. x31 outbound trips operate via Brooklyn. Both routes come out of Yukon Depot. There are rumors and plans for additional service via NJ, incl. some downtown trips via Bayoone and the Holland Tunnel
-Hank
Wouldn't this be time consuming and frustrating for riders. It was pure hell trying to get from exit 13A to the Lincoln Tunnel that morning. Everyone was stuck in traffic, even the buses until the reached near the tunnel where a special lane was made for buses only during the morning rush.
-GarfieldA
as a staten islander i realize why these lines travel thru new jersey the amount of traffic on si is so bad in the morning that these lines stop only mid town and uptown it is faster believe it or not to travel yhis way since these lines terminate near the goethals bridge side of the island
A WCBS Newsradio 88 announcement just said that tokens are officially history and that turnstyles are being replaced with MetroCard only versions.
And here, compliments of remote-access to the WCBS Newsroom computer
system, is the story as heard on the air. Note we credit the Daily News.
The Metro-Card may soon be the only way into the subway. The Daily News reports that the city Transit Authority is replacing the token turnstiles with turnstiles that only accept the Metro-Card.
Transit spokesman Al O'Leary says surveys show that riders favor the Metro-Cards by a two to one margin.
O'Leary says by the end of 1999, 400 of the new turnstiles will be in place. A subway riders group - called Committee or Better Transit -- says there will be a day when the Metro-Cards will be sold by vending machines, and the24-hour token booths can be closed.
Some people worry that taking the token clerks out of the stations will increase crime.
Joe Rappaport of the Straphangers Campaign says having a person with a phone nearby keeps down crime.
It's important to note that no official token-phase-out date has yet been announced. I would think that token sales would cease at some point, with tokens remaining valid fare for some time thereafter so the stocks could be used up. That would lessen the number of redemptions that would be required.
Also of note, the TA still accepts the older tokens, i.e. when I have enough of them I send them to Brooklyn.
- 1.25 "bullseye"
- 1.00 solid
- .50 "Y" cut out
- 3.50 "Express"
For the life I me I don't know where people get them from. Maybe grandpa's coat pocket.
Mr t__:^)
My folks gave me a bunch of $1 tokens a while back. At one of our SubTalker's suggestions, I began using them on the bus (with $0.50 cash) when I needed a bus only ride (ug). But a few weeks ago I tried it on the M-60, and when the farebox "ate" the token without crediting me $1, the driver told me they were no longer accepted in that manner.
Mr. T., does your "private" still accept them?
Todd, et. al.,
I just went outside with a few of these coins & have a report:
First, they're all the size of the "Bullseye", and guess what, our Farebox thinks that's what they are: So, the Bullseye, Solid, "Y" cut out, Queensboro Bridge Trolley & Garden State Parkway all STILL register here at $1.25, at least here.
So let me confirm that the "TA" buses were registering $1.00 ?
Item last, I wouldn't normally mention the Garden State Pky token, but none register as a full fare, SO the driver looks at what you put in, then at his display, then asks you for 25 cents. If you put in a GSP token he/she is suppose to ask you for $1.50. Same goes for the large video/game tokens & foreign coin. The fare beater looses & I sell it for profit, thanks.
P.S. Canadian two dollar coins go clunk too.
Disclaimer: Oponions expressed here are my own.
Mr t__:^)
One of the reasons why coins can't be used, and why those awful bill changers are needed on coin-operated vending machines, if the goverment's failure to adjust the coinage to the value of money. To convert a 1904 price to 1997, you have to multiply by 17.79 (that would be 89 cents -- guess the price of transit has gone up faster than the average price over the past century).
Pennies and nickels are now worth so little it is not even worth having them. Meanwhile, to have a coin worth what a quarter was worth in 1904, you'd need a $5.00 coin. Countries in Europe, which you might think would be more resistent to change, have updated their money system. A deutchmark, for example, is a coin.
Why not have a dime coin (the equivalent of a penny in 1940), a five dime coin (the equivalent of a nickel in 1940), a dollar coin (the equivalent of a dime in 1940) and a five dollar coin (the equivalent of a 50 cent piece in 1940)? Recall nickels, quarters, and -- yes -- pennies. I have a jar full of them, and if my wife didn't work at the Fed, where they have a machine to cash them in, I don't know what I'd do with them.
With more valuable coins, it would be easier to use them on the buses and trains -- and to carry them around. The TA could install one turnstile at every station which could accept coins.
On a recent viist to Toronto I discovered the Canadian's now have a two-dollar coin in conjuction with their one-dollar coin, referred to as the Loonie (a Loon is on the coin). The two-dollar coin is inturn referred to as a "toonie" (two).
It seems like our good neighbor to the North as well as most of Europe are far ahead of the US in terms of embracing the use of coins.
I myself, am in favor of the introduction of a $1 and $2 dollar coin here. Bet it will never happen!
One advantage of going over to a non-token system in NY is that the people of the city will finally be freed of the thirty years of TA stupidity in changing the token size so often. The whole purpose of tokens is so that turnstiles would not have to be changed every time there is a fare change, but the TA has wasted probably millions of dollars in getting new ones minted. Boston, when it went back to using tokens a number of years back, just took out all the old ones. Some people who had saved them from the 20 cents days had reduced-fare rides for a while. But the MBTA didn't wind up with huge numbers of different tokens in circulation.
(Of course, the number of old tokens that are never redeemed in NY probably paid for a lot of limousines for the bigwigs.)
Side issue--Jim K. mentioned the Canadian Loonies and Toonies, but another good thing about the Canadian currency system is that the paper currency is in colors so you can see at a glance what it is. With the new cartoon money being issued in this country right now (the $20 bill is out today), we could have changed to different colors, but someone decided that status quo was better. (It all makes about as much sense as the Stock Market using all those thirty-seconds and sixteenths when they could have shifted to the same decimals as we have in our money system.)
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Just to make a note, NYSE is going to be using decimals by 2001, and NASDAQ already does.
-Hank
Chicago also took their old surface transit tokens out of mothballs some years back for use on the L. A lady we know who grew up in Chicago gave me one of those tokens back in 1981 when she found out I was into streetcars and subways; then when I visited Chicago in 1983, my aunt handed me a token as we entered the L at Bryn Mawr and, sure enough, it was the same type of token!
I still have a few of the dime-size 20-cent tokens with the Y cutout, as well as examples of every other New York token minted since then, including a 75th anniversary specimen from 1979.
IMHO, people would probably accept and use a dollar coin if it can be readily recognized as such. I know I would. That's why the Susan B. Anthony dollar failed to gain acceptance - it looked too much like a quarter. There is a new dollar coin in the works. It's supposed to have a bronze tint to it, so it can't be mistaken for anything else.
There has also been talk of doing away with the penny altogether and rounding prices off to the nearest nickel. I could live with an arrangement like that; the penny isn't needed anymore.
If you think the $20 bill looks cartoonish - you should really take a look at Canadian bills. I'm all for adding color to our money to make it easily distinguishable, but I wouldn't reccomend Canadian bills as the standard to strive for. Each bill is mostly various shades of one color. $5 bill is a variety of bluish green shades. The effect is that it really looks like monopoly money. Their bills also tear easily - the paper doesn't seem to be the same quality as ours.
As long as this is becomming a monetary system wish list . . .
The netherlands and germany have my favorite paper currency:
watermarks (which our new bills have)
holograms (which our new bills have in a subtle form)
different colors - not multishade blue or green, but still distinct
different sizes and embossed patterns so that you don't even have to see the bill to tell its denomination.
Famous people other than political leaders: James Joyce is on the £10 Irish note. The Dutch FL20 (or maybe 50 guilder) note features bumble bees and field of sunflowers.
To bring this back to transit. One benefit of the "twonie" is that one of them = exact fare on the TTC. Far better than 6 quarters for a bus farebox in NY.
You may not agree, but I hope that with the Metrocard the fare will be raised more often -- and by lower amounts. There would be less need to have it round off to the nearest nickel or dime.
In fact, I would argue that it should change every year, based on the Local 100 contract and the cost of health benefits. That way, people would see the link between inflow and outflow. As it is, they hold down the fare for years, often deferring maintenance in the process, then there is a massive political battle and a massive increase (ie. 20 percent). Better to raise it six cents at a time.
[In fact, I would argue that it should change every year, based on the Local 100 contract and the cost of health benefits. That way, people would see the link between inflow and outflow. As it is, they hold down the fare for years, often deferring maintenance in the process, then there is a massive political battle and a massive increase (ie. 20 percent). Better to raise it six cents at a time.]
Some financial figures recently posted on nyc.transit illustrated your point quite well. The Transit Authority's subway-related expenses were dramatically higher - meaning in the vicinity of 20% higher - for 1994 than for 1996. There might have been some legitimate cost differences, but nothing approaching that magnitude. What's much more likely is that the TA had some ulterior motive in switching cost items from one year to another.
Sorry Larry, I don't agree. The MTA/TA mngt needs to be accountable to the public that, in the end, pays for it. If we make it too easy for them to raise the fare, just a little at a time, what's there motovation to keep costs in check, come up with inovative ways to save labor/maint costs (I don't mean cutting cleaners or the second man on the train, I mean real productivity improvements, i.e. welded rails, more reliable trains/buses, etc.)
Mr t__:^)
Ever notice that the watermark on the $100 bill looks more like David Crosby than Ben Franklin?
Hey I have an old token that I think is of the old bullseye type.. are you suggesting these are refundable Mr. t?
Yes, write: NYCT (notice there's no more "authority", in there name that is) @ Treasury Dept. Room 212 - One Jay Street - Brooklyn 11201
- "dime" size @ .20
- "Y" cut out @ .50 (miss-spoke yesterday & gave collector price)
- Diamond Jubilee @ .50
- "solid" @ 1.00
- "Bullseye" @ 1.25
- Express @ 4.00 (I prev said 3.00, maybe they got smart since I got this list (1996))
OR ride with us and just a 25 cents !
Mr t__:^)
The copy this AM on WCBS, or maybe it was WINS, also mentioned how many HAD already been converted, I seem to remember 70 something.
Mr t__:^)
Sorry to spoil your fun but we wont go away anytime soon! We have 468 stations with booths. Many stations have multiple booths. even if you would replace all multiple booths with metrocard iron maidens that will still leave the main booths.
Now, let's do some math: assuming we have an average of 6 turnstiles per station (some like Penn or WTC have 12 on each line at each main entrance!) that is 6 times 468 or 2808 turnstiles to replace/retool.
Even if they put in 800 a year it is still over 3 years before the last is replaced/retooled.
Now--let's say they take away the tokens and put in machines- who will feed the machines-- we will!, who will tell you how to get to Coney Island---we will! who will inspect the stations to make sure there are no hazzards in the station-- we will. Our title is changed from railroad Clerk to Station Agent to reflect our evolving role.
PERSONAL OPINION: I'll be glad to see tokens vanish. If you have ever spent 8 hours searching the floor for a dropped token you'll appreciate their demise in the future. Vending machines-- great, take away our money. I'd rather be helping people with the trains instead of pushing tokens.
REALITY: I think that the straphangers campaign will force retention of tokens for sometime to come. In late 1994 or 1995 the Metrocard fare for weekends was just $1.00 and still they bought tokens. Even now with the free rides they are still buying 10 or 20 tokens at a time. The other day a person bought 20 then came back and bought 20 more! I told the customer that if he bought a metrocard he'd have gotten 4 free rides and he said I know but I dont like Metrocards. I cannot print what some customers have said about metrocards but use your imagination to think of the worst profanity you can think of!
You can have all the special promos you want for metrocard but the less educated and older riders will still want tokens! One time I had a customer who wanted 100 tokens. I told him the maximum is 50 and that they only way would be to call Jay Street or have his friend buy 50. He told his friend to buy 50 tokens (and yes, he paid for the friend's tokens and friend gave the tokens to the first person!) Since number 1 only bought 50 I had no problem.
dislcaimer: Opinions expressed are my own and not those of MTA or NYCT
Wait a minute. Why is the TA spending money to replace working Metrocard readers that can also accept tokens with metrocard readers which cannot accept tokens? Why don't they just stop selling tokens, and phase them out as they are used? That way, they could go back to tokens if for any reason (say on Jan 1, 2000) the Metrocard system goes down.
This can't be right. They can't be that stupid. I'll bet that what is really happening is that the TA has stopped installing dual turnstiles, but is not replacing those it has already.
I don't like the Metrocard either, and I when I read the post about tokens being phased out, it hit me like a bowling ball.
I used a Metrocard for a little while, but I just didn't like it -- it's that nostalgia thing again, same thing as with the Redbirds -- so I went back to tokens and I am still a loyal token user. On occasion, when purchasing tokens in bulk, a clerk would mention the free transfers and what-not with the Metrocard. I simply look them in the eye and, with a straight face, say, "I know. I don't care."
The day when token sales cease and the Metrocard takes over for good will definately be a very very dark, sad day in my life.
Same thing with the Redbirds, too.
I did *not* say that tokens will be done away with. All I did say was that *if* the original post is true it will be a long time before they really are gone.
Well the token is going away by itself, contrary to what was said here.
At one of the "privates" we've gone from 50/50 on coins & tokens to 10/90! Before the MetroCard, tokens were 24% of the daily revenue, now only 3%. We used to get them from a significant amount from our Express riders, now about a dozen from any one run (2 X 1.50 = a fare). We still get a respectible amount of SBA dollars (Express rides used to pay with bills, 1/2 dollars & other change, but now you just don't see them with a pocket full of change). That's why we started SELLING MetroCards. AND every once in a while someone shoves a dollar bill down the coin slot of the Farebox.
Now don't missunderstand, I'm not looking forward to coins & tokens going away either. Personally, i'll miss the Chuck-E-Cheeze & Trop World (slot machine) coins that would show up here.
Mr t__:^)
Just to clarify this a bit, they are replacing the old 'iron maiden' type turnstiles with new aluminum high-wheel entrance/exit turnstiles. Thes accept only the MetroCard. They are not phasing out the token yet, but they are at unsupervised entrances.
-Hank
Thanks, Hank! I saw the article in a booth today. As is common, people jumped to conclusion. It seems to me that the public is thinking the same thing- I hadf a run on tokens today--people buying 50, 30, 20, etc.
to repeat- we are not going away. ALl that is being replaced is the old iron maidens and in some cases an old high **exit** is being replaced with a new HEET (High Entrance Exit Turnstile).
The problem with HEETS is capacity- one person at a time- and what about luggage and bikes and carriages, and shopping carts and big packages, and . . .
we are not going away!! we'll be here for quite some time yet.
About 25 years ago, I lived in Denver, where (apparently) practically nobody had heard of a NY subway token! In those days, everybody was either doing real estate on the side or otherwise fancied him/herself an expert in financial investments. Anyway, whenever they were discussing the latest greatest gold coin (e.g. Krugerrand) that they were planning to invest in, I brought out a subway token and announced "I have a coin here which has increased in value by 33% in only a few months!" You wouldn't believe how many people took me seriously until I told them what it was!
Bob Sklar
As a current Metro Denver resident, I've run into a lot of people who have never even been to New York, let alone heard of a subway token. Case in point: my Jeep's license plates say 8AVEXP in honor of the A train, my all-time favorite route. I've been stopped by people in parking lots, gas stations, at work, even had a few people holler over while driving next to me wanting to know what my plates mean, and while a few have figured out the 8th Ave. Express part, no one has made the connection to New York. I either tell them it's a subway route in New York, or I'll ask if they're familiar with Duke Ellington's Take the A Train.
For those of you who are in or at least familiar with Chicago, the Grand/Halsted/Milwaukee station on the Blue Line has been closed for some years now. When it was shut down, it had low ridership because it was in a decaying and rather depopulated area.
However, as one can tell from driving around the Grand/Halsted area, and by the demographic of the crowds getting on at the nearby Chicago and Division stations, the area is seriously gentrifying. The intersection itself has gone from having an abandoned and boarded-up hot dog stand to having an expensive valet-parking Italian restaurant. Am I the only person who thinks that it's time for the Grand/Halsted station to be reopened?
If personnel cost is the deciding factor between reopening and leaving it closed, it could be an unmanned station. Already, CTA is reopening unmanned entrances which, pre-Transit Card, were exits only. It's only a small step further to have an unmanned station which has only one entrance anyway.
Thoughts? Kudos or criticisms?
There's some precedent in New York for reopening a closed station. About a year or so ago, the Aqueduct Racetrack station reopened after years of disuse. It's located right at the track's grandstand, not to be confused with the nearby Aqueduct/No. Conduit Blvd. station, and is open only for Manhattan-bound riders after race meets.
In contrast to the situation you described at Grand/Halsted/Milwaukee, there was no big ridership increase that prompted Aqueduct's reopening - horse racing is hardly a growth sport. More likely it was the availability of MetroCard that made it possible. So there's hope for reopening of the Chicago station.
I am in complete agreement with your views John. I sometimes use the #8 Halsted bus as a "different" route to work. You are correct in your statements that the area is in "gentrification" mode. There is at least two condo/apartment complexes in the works nearby. I would say that within two years there would be enough potential ridership to at least open the station on a part-time basis. This is the case with the Chicago Avenue station on the Blue Line.
John, why don't you suggest this to the CTA? I hope you have better luck in getting a response to them that I've had. I've sent twelve e-mails to the CTA HELP address in the past six months and have received NOTHING in way of a response. So much for improved communication at the Mart!
Greetings,
Constantine Steffan has provided me with 24 photos from the Westchester Yard open house held earlier this month. They are on the following page:
http://www.nycsubway.org/yards/westchester/
Plus you might want to check out the Yards section in general. I reorganized it a bit and am slowly adding photographs.
-Dave
I didn't realize you included other pics with the WestFest ones so when I saw westch01.jpg I thought "I didn't they'd also have time travel." 8-) Nice before-and-after comparison between westch01.jpg and westch06.jpg.
Actually I had those WestFest pics a few days before I took the others (westch02 thru 08.jpg). westch01.jpg was around on the site elsewhere for a while now but I moved it to the Westchester page when I re-did the yards pages a couple weeks ago.
For those who haven't seen it, here's the 1960's view and the 1990's view of Westchester Yard:
-Dave
Time Travel woudl be nice, but considering that we know what happened already, would we meddle with history to "correct" the past error?
I wanted to find the J train on the line-by-line page, but that page has the trains by the old-fashioned names...can someone PLEASE tell me where I should click on the line-by-line page to get the line-by-line for the J train?
The "J" train is the BMT Broadway (Brooklyn) Elevated.
Thanks, Dave...did you ever consider putting the route letters or numbers beside the old-fashioned names, for those of us who aren't quite as knowledgeable?
By happy coincidence, the J line is one of two subway routes whose letter designation also happens to be the first letter of the street which is associated with that route. J=Jamaica Ave.; M=Myrtle Ave. However, since all subway routes are based on their Manhattan trunk routes, both the J and M are officially known as Nassau St. routes.
I am writing an NYPD Blue-style script, and I want to have the main crime/investigation center around the subway, possibly even the conductors themselves. Any specific suggestions on crime scenarios (i.e. assault, murder, smuggling, etc) that have occured in the subway? Much obliged...
more location specific might be numbers running or contraband transport and warehousing--I'll bet there are some dandy "storage locations" as to transport how about using an otherwise empty cab and having a confederate board and offload the shipment?
You don't have to go too far from the real thing.Maybe, you could do a script like what happened a few years back with Bernie Goetz, only in
the script the guy panics and makes the motorman drive the subway into
the tunnel where he escapes through a secret passageway, known only to track maintainers and then your search begins to find out who this guy is? Or maybe the assailant is one of the estimated 5,000 homeless
people living in the underworld Labrynth, tell me the police wouldn't have a hard time tracking this person down,especially if they are nomadic. Keep me posted, I'd like to read it ,if possible.If you want input you've come to the right Website!
How about a serial rapist on the G train.
I've always had the idea for a book or movie plot of a bomb threat where the bomb is hidden in the subway but the threat doesn't say where it is. The police get their hands on a map of where the bomb has been placed, by capturing one of the conspirators or similar means. They can't make heads or tails of the map because the map is very cryptic (obviously, it's not a map of Manhattan or something obvious to the layman) until a cop who is also a rail-fan looks at the map and it is obvious to him (or her!) where the bomb is.
So the map would have to be something, like a track map without stations marked on it, that the average person could not look at the map and figure out where the bomb is but a dedicated rail-fan would get it in a heartbeat. That's obviously one of the big dramatic scenes -- where the railfan cop takes the map out of the hands of a higher-ranked and supposedly more-skilled officer and after only a few seconds says where the bomb is.
What do you think?
about 2 years ago someone from New Jersey set a bomb off on, I believe
one of the Brooklyn Bound IRT LInes.THe police caught the offender because he was bloodied and dazed as he walked through the tunnel, anyway I don't live in New York, but if something like that got out on the air it might just give someone that little something to send them off the deep end,and I'd hate to be on that subway.
That was Mr.O'Leary and it was the 4
train at Fulton Street (car #1391) that was bombed.
One possibility might be a hostage situation of some sort that has
a "happy" (non-violent) ending, but plenty of tension. Maybe the
hostage-taker could force the train to stop in a tunnel or between
two stations while negotiations are going on...
The bomb idea is a good one, too.
Wayne
John Godey already staked a claim to the hostage idea: Pelham 1-2-3. The idea of a bomb is good, but I wouldn't want to pursue it any further because, as was previously mentioned, it might give some lunatic ideas. Remember what happened on the Fulton St. line after Money Train came out?
"The idea of a bomb is good, but I wouldn't want to pursue it any further because, as was previously mentioned, it might give some lunatic ideas."
By this logic, any movie or book produced with a crime on the subway could inspire a copycat crime, and therefore the originator of this thread shouldn't be seeking to write such a script in the first place.
If this logic was applied to the fullest, all depictions of crime in movies, television, or even books would have to disappear, except for the most generic and nondescript depictions possible. In other words, any depiction of a "clever" or otherwise out-of-the-ordinary crime -- just the sort of crime story you'd actually WANT to read or see -- should go, and only "dull" crime stories which cannot be accused of being copycatted would be allowed.
If someone were afraid of a bomb story resulting in a copycat, make the crime unduplicatable by leaving out some small but essential element (like the writers of the old "MacGyver" show used to). This would kill two birds with one stone, since the fictional crime could not be duplicated and the railfans of this board would have another movie error to bandy about for days (a la "Blooth-Danforth 1-2-3"). (^:
The problem with crime in the movies and on TV is that it glamorized, and without human consequences. Going to see Saving Private Ryan did not make me want to go out and fight in a war. But did "The Money Train" show years of suffering after the burning incident, which was copycatted?
[The problem with crime in the movies and on TV is that it glamorized, and without human consequences. Going to see Saving Private Ryan did not make me want to go out and fight in a war. But did "The Money Train" show years of suffering after the burning incident, which was copycatted?]
There had been at least one flammable-liquid attack on a token booth some years before _Money Train_ came out. Three teens were thrown out of the Broad Channel station on the A line for farebeating, and took their revenge (it's a long walk from there to the next closest station) by dousing the booth with gasoline and setting it (and the luckless clerk) on fire. And as far as I know, the person or persons caught for the post-_Money Train_ attack denied ever having seen the movie.
More I think about it, _Money Train_ has to be one of the worst movies I've seen in recent years ... saved from being *the* worst by virtue of _Exit to Eden_ and especially _Showgirls_!
My son(industrious and strange youth that he is) has written a rough type of station by station guide of the El. Would you like it(or at least a copy) for use on your page?
Yes, Jack
Peggy Darlington
93 Jersey Ave
Edison, NJ 08820
Hello. I'm new to this site but not to subways. Does anyone know a good site about the LIRR and the MARC system of Baltimore?
An unofficial site with a lot of "inside" information on the LIRR is:
http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/Mall/4322
For LIRR try www.lirr.org/lirr/image/lirrmap.pdf
or www.pipeline.com/~robertwa/lirr.html
For MARC, try the Maryland Mass Transit Administration's web site at
www.inform.umd.edu/ums+State/MD_resources/MDOT/mta.
(as a shorter alternative, the MTA has set up www.mtatransit.com as a "header" that takes you to the long address name.)
For the people that have been or are subway motormen,plese answer this question:How does it feel to drive a subway and do all the duties as a motorman?I'm really anxious.
Having stood at countless front windows and imagined myself behind
that little door, I can only paint a mental picture as follows:
Imagine you have your hand on this little handle, and every time you move it one way, several hundred tons of steel, plastic, glass and humanity suddenly spring into motion and when you move it another way, it glides to a smooth stop. You will feel the sensation of this
mechanical monster in motion. You must be highly alert, able to read
the signal lights, interpret their meanings instantly, assess the
situation and react accordingly. You must also be on the lookout for
things that should not be and take the appropriate action. You will
have knowledge of electric motors, pneumatics (air-controlled devices, i.e. brakes), and other mechanical devices and machines. You will be
trained in safety measures and fire control. You must also familiarize yourself with different types of equipment (22 different kinds of trains running), as well as a large volume of rules and regulations. After all, the safety of hundreds (and sometimes, thousands) of people is IN YOUR HANDS. You are their shepherd and guardian.
I work with computers and make good money at it. However, I would
gladly put it all aside if someone told me that I could be a motorman.
Wayne
Probably similar to the way it feels to captain an airliner.
Come up to the Seashore Trolley Museum in Kennebunkport, Maine. While we can't offer you a subway train (our R4/R7 cars 800/1440 don't usually run on our main line), we can let you run a trolley under our "Be a Motorman" program. For a $30 donation, you get a chance to learn to run the car, and take it out the main line. If it's available, you might be able to run Third Avenue Railway System #631, which ran in Manhattan and The Bronx.
I took a day off from work today, and went up to be Dispatcher today. And yes, 631 saw service -- I had it signed up for "Jerome Ave." and "Tremont" :-)
Thanks to everyone that responded!I was really anxious to know,and thanks to you nice people now I know.
>^..^<
Pinta
I guess the first time it was a thrill. Mechanically, it's an interestinf phenomenom. You push a lever and all the brakes release (up to 600 feet away) at the same time. You then advance the master controller and realize that with only minimal effort, you are moving almost 1,000,000 Lbs of machinery and people. The real excitement is getting up to 40 or 45 MPH and winding throug sweeping curves.
Of course you can virtually never relax - especially at night. Orange lamps keep popping up. Safety vests reflecting your headlights. Kids on the platforms pretending to throw each other in front of your train. Going from 40 to 10 MPH rapidly but smoothly so you don't throw the customers out of their seats. Looking for the green 'resume' lamps. Route diversions, following work trains and all the while trying to maintain a schedule. I'm quite sure every buff would love to operate a train but for those who actually do it 40 or more hours per week, it's more stress than fun.
You said it brother "Wrap it Around" "Keep it on the post"
on the contrary, because labor relations values their good employees with cuts in pay and mandatory overtime, my slogan is
"PUT IT IN COAST TO MAKE THE MO$T"
No TWU represented employee ever has his pay cut for any reason. Some of them, usually the screw-ups, pay a 30% fine for a given number of days for their willful misconduct or incompetance. AGAIN: This is not a pay cut. It is a fine which is spelled out in the Collective Bargaining Agreement between the MTA - NYC Transit and the TWU, ratafied by the rank & file of local 100. It came about so that no matter how badly you screw up on the job, unkless you are terminated, you can opt to pay the fine so your family can eat. It's very simple, you don't screw up, you don't get fined. You screw up, you do! End of story...
Do kids get inside the cab and mess with the machinery?
they usually drop the circuitbreakers
I remember David Gunn, a number of years ago when we had a lot of doors-opening-enroute incidents saying the doors were opened "with a very cheesy key" . Not only do we still use the same cheesy key on our cab doors, that looks like a skeleton key, we have extremely flimsy easy to vandalise & break into cab doors. Easy to push in & easy to get off the rivets (our answer to hinges). They are no match for these troublemakers. For example, I've seen the Boston cabs: there is no way someone unauthorised can get in unless he has a key. Look how many cab doors are bent out of shape, especially on the R40 & 42.
I have been to the subway in Monterrey,Mexico. They use the cheesy key when the motomen go to the restroom (I onco peeked in a window and saw 3 motormen waiting for their shifts.A yellow door was open ,and a motorman was washing his hands!)or they change shifts.But those cab doors don't have screws on the hinges.They only can open the door from the inside if they lock it.But if they don't lock it,anyone can break in and cause troble,including maybe even drive the subway car for a short time.
The operators' cabs out here in Los Angeles on the LACMTA rail equipment are locked using a vending-machine type key (the round shaft with the varying indentations around the circumference). No way to pick those kinds of locks.
It's the same sort of key that is used as a throttle lock on the Amtrak and Metrolink cab cars. Yet there's no key to lock/unlock the throttles on the locomotives (just a "reverser key" which 9 times out of 10 is laying on the floor under the engineer's seat!)
Have people ever driven a subway (other than motormen,only troublemakers).and whizzed throu the next station?
After 17 yrs. pounding the road, my feelings are different today than previously. It is awesome to be controlling this big machine with human life aboard with your 2 hands (in some cases one hand). But after a while, it is just a job of assembly line like repetition which supports you & your family financially. It's not pleasant having a trainload of rowdy schoolkids breaking into cabs, yelling on the PA, pulling cods, holding doors for their friends, riding side saddle when the train is moving with police showing up after the fact with all the control center asking you if you are moving. Or being denied lunch because the railroad went bad & the dispatcher has to put it back in place. Or working every weekend & holiday. No or little heat in the cabs in winter. Or people spitting or throwing objects at your windshield. Yeah, the thrill is gone.
HeLLO To THE R, F and G Lines
KEEP RUNNING THOSE R46's
Welcome back, Jack! Don't forget the E !
Latest R46 to make my Master Numbers Book are: 5798-5799-5801-5800,
seen Sat. Sept.19, 1998 on the R.
Only need 62 more numbers (56 in bunches, 6 in pairs) and R46 is DONE.
Wayne
Gov Tommy Thompson of Wisconsin has been named Chairman and former Massachusetts Gov Michael Dukakis has been named Vice-Chairman by the new board that oversees Amtrak. The board voted on their nominations on Thursday September 24, 1998.
I have a funny feeling that Mike Dukakis might try to put tanks on the Amtrak rails. Remember Mike Dukakis was the 1988 presidential nominee. He did the commericals for president while driving a tank.
Charlie Muller.
That's true but Mike Dukakis also took the MBTA Green Line trolley to work insead of a limo when he was governor of Massachusetts! You might not like his politics but you have to like his choice of transportation!
Tommy Thompson, a Republican who is nonetheless pretty sound on transit issues, is an encouraging choice. His administration was responsible for rescuing the Chicago-Milwaukee Hiawatha Service from Amtrak-proposed service cuts some years back, and has been interested in 403(b) service to Green Bay, as well as longer-term plans for Midwest high-speed rail.
I thought Thompson machine-gunned (sorry, couldn't resist the pun) obtaining federal or state funding for a Milwaukee light rail study. (I'm almost sure -- anyone from Milwaukee on the board who can confirm?) It's not so odd for a state official to say the state won't pay for something, but it's damn unusual, to say the least, for a governor to say that he's not going to seek **federal** money for something.
In today's New York Post page 10 and the New York Daily News page 32 are articles that the TA will have a surplus of nearly $100 million. This is according to an analysis done by New York City Council speaker Peter Vallone.
Peter Vallone says it's time to add cars and clean the subways up.
When everyone gets a chance to read the articles, either by reading the paper or on the papers web site, what are your thoughts on how the extra money should be spent.
Charlie Muller.
I, of course, think it would be nice if SOMEONE gave a damn about the FUTURE, and was willing to use some money to either reduce the staggering MTA debt or invest in long term improvements -- like replacing the Manhattan Bridge for subway service, building the connection to the airport, starting the 2nd Ave subway above 63rd St, or replacing the signal system. NO ONE is calling for any of those possibilities.
Vallone represents the sort of people who have been moving out. The last thing he wants is to use money for something which would provide a benefit ten years from now, unless that benefit would be in the suburbs or Florida (forget Albany, no way he is going there). Same with the straphangers, and God Help Us, our legistors to the Vampire State. Thank God for term limits. If we can just make it to 2002, at least the City Council will be gone.
Long term improvements are provided with capital money, not the surplus. We are not ready for increased ridership because we have not planned ahead. If the City Council is eliminated, the Mayor would become a dictator: he would have the only say in policy. That is the same thing as eliminating the Senate & Congress: then a president would do as he pleases=dictator.
The idea that you have a capital budget with one source of funding and an operating budget with another just doesn't pan out. All the money comes from you or me, now or later. Of course, the theory is New York State and New York City can borrow money to fund capital improvements, but not operating expenses. But somehow, while making very few capital improvements, the city and state borrowed so much money that they can't borrow any more without violating the state consitution. Of course, borrowing to fund operating expenses also violates the state constitution, but all those politicians are lawyers, so the rules don't apply to them.
I guess the only good news is that I read Pataki put his own family up to its eyeballs in debt also. I guess he isn't doing anything to us that he isn't also doing to himself. But should this guy be running the state?
Probably not any more than Mr. Bill should be running the country.
Gee I hope our union sees this(local 100).Maybe they won't blow this opportunity like they did the last time the TA cried poverty.Judging by the leadership we currently have I doubt this will happen
Put it back into infrastructure. Fix the Manhattan Bridge or construct the Rutgers St tunnel connection. Give the East Side the relief it has been expecting since May 1955.
--Mark
Get the new cars that the city needs and at least try to resume construction on the second ave subway..... cmon im dyin on those crowded 4 & 5 from union square to bowling green.
I'll second that.
After the Redbirds are put to rest what other cars need "immediate"
replacement?The money in surplus would be well spent to upgrade stations, tracks and signals.And along with a direct line to JFK airport and completion of the 2nd avenue project,and probably in order to keep from spending great amounts of money in the future to repair problems that could have been avoided by spending a little now would be a good idea.
The only cars I could think of that might be candidates for replacement are the R-44s, unless the TA can come up with a solution
for their myriad mechanical glitches. As for the others: R32 looks good until 2015; so does R38. Slant 40, R40M look good until 2012 at least; R42 and R46 look good until at least 2010. N.B. These are my
own "guesstimates". If I had my way I'd keep the slant 40's running
until every spot weld came undone.
Wayne (love those Slant R40s!)
I guess that a piece of the pie for all operating employees is not acceptable to you people.Just what I thought a bunch of stupid buffs who would probably do the job for free if offered.
I am going to attempt to keep a civil tongue in my head in response
to this issue: The discussion was CAPITAL IMPROVEMENTS not salaries
and benefits. Of course it would be nice to "share the wealth"...
but this is a matter which must be brought to the union delegates'
attention. It is entirely possible that, when contract re-negotiation
time comes around, that there may be money available to afford
employees more than just a "cost-of-living" pay increase. This
remains to be seen. Don't forget, the surplus is AS IT IS NOW, and
it is likely to grow as ridership increases. So the pie may in fact
get bigger.
I trust that you may have had a bad day at the office. We are not
stupid people. We take great pleasure in riding the system and
enjoying what it has to offer - much more than merely getting from
point "A" to point "B". As for doing the job for free - I will pretend not to have had my intelligence insulted. OF COURSE I would
like to be a motorman or a conductor - nothing would please me more.
But to do it for free - I couldn't do that even if I wanted to.
Thanks for sharing!
Wayne
My guess is that once the current contract expires in Dec 1999 the surplus will have dried up. Stations dept is stirring up the pot by shaking up is management by redeploying its people what cost savings this will have heaven only knows. As for hiring more cleaners for Car Equip on Stations dept I won't even go there. Do to all the press regarding cleanliness some subway terminals may see these new private cleaners that I've seen doing towers and some ta offices cleaning trains. Once the attention is drawn away they'll disappear!!!!
The surplus will long be gone by the time the T.W.U. contract expires. Additional service and greater use of the Metrocard will probably create a shortfall.
Don't be surprised if the MTA asks for givebacks :).
Just to let you know, Stations will be eliminating 100 cleaner positions in January, 1999. Stations are really getting filthy. But then again, the trains are filthy and the buses smell of urine
Things are really going to get rough.
Mike, I hope your interest in posting to this board is more then just hurling insults ... I am a employee of one of the bus companies, as are many who contribute here. I like my job ... do I feel under paid, sure that's a natural thing. Being in mngt many of my union colleagues have made more than me by the end of the year, can you say OT ? But they seem to be here all the time, I'ld rather be home on Sat & Sun.
As was said elsewhere in this thread, Sunny Hall of Local 100 will surly ask for a piece of the surplus. As an old Teamster Shop Steward, I hope you'll go to the next union meeting a voice you concern. Just like voting, that's the place to express you feeling.
Mr t__:^)
As A T.A. supervisor I can't agree more with you. SSSA is in the process of selling us out I mean trying to get us a contract. The people that I speak to about going to union meetings to improve their and their families lives say stupid things like "I could'nt get a baby sitter" or some other lame excuse. It seems that they are more concerned about the present instead of the future. To any T.A. worker reading this go to your union meetings before you find yourself making minimum wage. Also remember that the union has 2 officers who are retired.
S.ystem of
S.alary
S.ubtraction through forced
A.rbitration
Join our worthless union today you TWUers.
Sorry, but TWU workers earn one hell of a lot more than other public employees in comparable positions. I know, I worked for the TA and for other agencies, and I see the administrative data reported to the state Department of Labor.
That said, we are rapidly transitioning from a labor surplus (with zillions of baby boomers and former housewives entering the labor force) to labor shortage (with all the boomers and women already in, boomers starting to retire, and far fewer baby busters coming on line). Sure enough, the intellegent private sector, which realized 20 years ago that it had the upper hand and squeezed the blood out of employees when it was profitable, has suddenly switched gears and is coming up with all sorts of ways to get workers to join / prevent them from leaving. Take the trucking industry, which is trying anything to recruit truckers, and the rail industry which finds a shortage of skilled workers after years of no training and decline.
And the public sector? Lets just say its a little slow to react -- just like it was last time. But there is a market-oriented protest. If you are underpaid, that means you can do better elsewhere. So leave. When no one is left, even the MTA will catch on.
[ ... we are rapidly transitioning from a labor surplus (with zillions of baby boomers and former housewives entering the labor force) to labor shortage (with all the boomers and women already in, boomers starting to retire, and far fewer baby busters coming on line). Sure enough, the intellegent private sector, which realized 20 years ago that it had the upper hand and squeezed the blood out of employees when it was profitable, has suddenly switched gears and is coming
up with all sorts of ways to get workers to join / prevent them from leaving ... And the public sector? Lets just say its a little slow to react -- just like it was last time.]
Those are interesting comments on the overall labor force, but I'm not so sure that the Transit Authority has been affected - at least I've never heard any complaints about labor shortages. It may well be that some people for whatever reasons prefer working for public agencies as opposed to the private sector. Transit work in particular may hold some attractions ... there are plenty of railfans out there :-)
One comment about the overall labor picture is that immigration may help lessen any shortages that might otherwise occur. I can recall some statistics that showed the percentage of new labor force entrants that were immigrants - can't remember the specific number, but it was far higher than I ever imagined.
Here at one of the "privates" bus companies we have plunty of candidates for any job that comes up. We have file cabinets full of folks wanting to drive for us. This is of course because we known in the industry as such a nice place to work at ;-)
Toot toot ... (tooting my own horn) Mr t__:^)
Thanks for contributing ! I feel a few of us "employees" posting here adds a valuable component to the mix that gives & takes information that in the end benifits us all.
Mr t__:^)
I can almost assure you that things will only get worse. The "surplus" will long be gone before money can go to the T.W.U. or let alone the S.S.S.A.
The store was given away by the Pataki Administration in the form of Metrocard discounts. This led to increased ridership and the need for service increases.
Nothing is left for the workers. Besides, the NYCTA is in the process of reducing its workforce. Less cleaners, maintainers, supervisors, managers.
The MTA is not going our way...EVer hear of "Doing more with less"?
Despite your insults I personally think you may have a point there. It would be nice to give a one-shot bonus to the men and women who are who are keeping the system going despite the latest increases in ridership. It just helps to know that as a worker out in the field that you're getting something back for being jerked around by politically driven upper management.
If any money is left, you can also consider service increases. I personally like the idea that Larry once proposed - run shorter, more frequent trains late at night. The only problem I saw with that was money - something we now have available, for a few major lines at least.
Capital improvements would make the best use of any 'surplus'. You have to put real money into the infrastructure because the oldest parts of the system are approaching 100 years of use. But the 'gimme' culture of New York City mass transit users will probably lead to a lot of short-term cosmetic improvements. I am not against fare reductions but by not putting the money into needed structural work now will only lead to a crushing financial burden 10 to 15 years from now.
Having weighed the pros and cons of all possible improvements needed
I conclude that the following ought to be done: Bear in mind that
100 Million Dollars is a drop in the bucket in relationship to the
total cost(s) of all these:
1) Build two concrete-pier bridges alongside the Manhattan Bridge
using the same construction techniques employed by Washington DC
in constructing the Potomac River (yellow line) bridge.
2) Complete, above 63rd Street, the Second Avenue Subway and allow
it to go west on 125th Street, initially to Lexington Avenue and
eventually to either St.Nicholas Avenue or Broadway.
3. Buy at least 200 ADDITIONAL (not replacement) BMT/IND cars.
4. Consider a periodic mechanical overhaul for the R32 and R38 cars.
5. Address the most glaring structural defects in key stations - top
of the list would be Times Square (money already allocated),
Chambers Street BMT, De Kalb Avenue BMT, there are others.
6. Service enhancements and restoration of cuts should be considered,
weekend "A" express service in Brooklyn and weekend "J" service to
Broad Street, among others.
Wayne
I think the TA should use the money to improve operations.
Yeah, some of you New Yorkers would complain about any level of service :) . BUT, from everything that I have read, the subways are crowded as hell right now. And that's why the TA has a surplus - more ridership, due to metrocard and the booming economy. So it makes sense to provide more service, if you have more money due to more customers.
Further, $100 M is not going to do much to solve the Manhattan Bridge or build a 2nd Ave. subway. (Note that the bridge over the potomac probably would not work accross the east river...the east river is (I think) quite a bit deeper, and more importantly has significant ship traffic.)
Politics is unavoidable on matters like this. I think it would be a bad precedent for the subway to be plowing its revenue surplus into capital improvement while the MTA keeps pouring capital $$$ into the LIRR and Metro North, and the state pours even more $$$$$$$ into highways. Unfortunately, this gets back to the issue of MTA funding equity, etc.
What would be the most appropriate way to spend the money improving operations? Either just added service, or small infrastructure improvements that would lead to improved service?
That's just the point. The surplus shoud be spent on OPERATIONAL SERVICE IMPROVEMENTS only. It is up to the state, city & feds to kick in $ for infastructural improvements. The surplus the TA is talking about is just a drop in the bucket financially when it comes to new construction. The TA operates the RR, they don't build it.
I'd like to see at least some of this surplus spent on cleaning up the cars and stations. $100 million will hire quite a few cleaners, and one thing that's been shown is that a relatively small reduction in the cleaners' ranks becomes all too apparent. So hiring back a few hundred or even a thousand will make a noticeable quality-of-life difference while probably not using up the surplus.
OK - huge capital expenditures better left to the gov't - yada yada yada... I am in agreement with that aspect (BTW my bridge idea would
have the trackbed level with where it currently is, not lower)
Cleaning up the stations and trains is a fine idea. Now, maybe we
could also plug some of the water leaks that plague the system...
I'm not going to list them all, the post would be too long.
Wayne :o)
Does anyone know if there will be room for "walk-on's" on the trip?
Thanks
Don't count on it.
Before the Mterocard Free Transfer program went into effect, on an express bus,a person could pay the fare with coins/tokens in full, or in conjuction with a metrocard which did not have a full fare on it and receive a free transfer to another express or a local bus. Now if you dont pay the fare in full with a metrocard, you receive ino transfer. Is there any talk of modifying this policy, by having express buses dispense the paper metrocard tranfers, and if the TA wanted to encourage metrocard usage, why don't they just charge $0.25 for the paper transfer to reduce the chances of tranfer abuse.
The Fare-set, i.e. when the bus is in Express mode, turns OFF the ability for the Farebox to issue a Transfer. So it's a very conscious thing that the MTA did. The "privates" carry paper Transfers so you can go to another EXPRESS bus. At my company that means from one of our to another of ours, we don't meet any TA Express buses.
I find it very interesting that in Staten Island the "TA" has Fareboxes in the rail stations & the paper/mag Transfer fro the bus WORKS in the rail turnstile. It would seem that the customers on SI raised their voices & were heard. The point, it CAN be done if the TA wants to authorize it.
Disclaimer: I don't work for the TA, opinions expressed here R mine.
Mr t__:^)
Only the St. George station is so equipped. It's also the only place on the line where fares are collected, as it's free between any 2 points, as long as one of those points isn't St. George. In 1994, the SIR started issueing and acceptingbus transfers, because it was decidedto use most of the s50 series buses to feed the SIR, as only 2 of these buses went to St. George. It worked, and still does, although I doubt they get many transfers. Also, it's really the quickest way from most of the North Shore to the South Shore; take the bus to St. George, and transfer to the SIR...
-Hank
On the IND Bergen St station, lower level why did they remove the wall tiles? Furthermore, when they renovated the upper level why didn't they also renovate the lower? The upper level did not need a rebuild, and as a result of not having a lower level stop, the Bergen Street community will protest any thought of having a culver express with no station stop there.In addition, there would be no transfer point and people getting on at 4th Ave, Smith-9th , or Carrol in addition to the people getting on at Bergen would have a problem and get stuck with reduced local service. That's why there is no Culver express today.
Bergen Street lower level was not rebuilt because there are no plans to use it in revenue service. Who is gonna protest? Who are you speaking for? Were you elected, appointed or self appointed? Why use Bergen lower for an express stop if Jay Street is just one stop away. If everyone took your view, every express would end up being a local. In order for express service to make sense, there should be a real savings in time for the customers and not just the perception of one.
That is true about the TA not planning on using Bergen St. lower level at this time. However, you Steve fail to miss the point that is obvious to any fool.You must have shit for brains to complain about every express train becoming a local one.
First off, Bergen St. was built as an express station. And second,
That is that on every line in the city, when there is an express and local service along the line, say Queens Plaza on the Queens Blvd. line or 145th St on the Central Park West line, there is a transfer point at those stops, which is right before the lines break up. This is designed to allow the rider more flexibility when multiple trains are coming together or breaking up.
Every once a while, the TA proposes restoring express service along the route. However the same cries are always heard. And that is I can't transfer at Bergen St., and I don't want to have to wait for a Culver local.
Second, that station generates a ridership that would make it suitable for rebuilding and restoration of express service.In addition, when there are General orders that close down the local line and force trains to use the express tracks, the riders have to take a train all the way to 7th Ave, and take a local back. This is a ridiculous waste of time, especially when there is a platform waiting to be used there. Instead of the TA renovating stations that don't need it like Bergen St. upper level, or 57th St BMT, the TA could pour their wasteful spending in a useful project like putting that station back together.
Please, MIND YOUR LANGUAGE. Profanity is never welcome here.
Your explanation is quite plausible, if the NYCT opts to use G
service as the local between Church Avenue and Bergen or Jay Streets.
However, there has been some discussion of using a V service, either from Kings Highway or
Church Avenue, during peak hours only; northern terminal to be determined but likely to be 21st-Queensbridge as part as a package of
service improvements due next year. If this be the case, as I think
that it may, then it wouldn't make any sense to open Bergen Street's
lower level, since passengers at 4th Avenue/Smith-9th and Carroll
Street, as well as Bergen Street would use the V service, with the F train making the express stops.
If, however, they decide to make the G the local, they'll be creating the hassle you describe. And, as nice as the upper level's new tile looks, I also wonder why it was chosen for renovation - it really wasn't in all that bad shape.
Wayne.
Did you really hear of a V service from somewhere other than my posts? That was my idea, and the idea the TA kept putting forth was to split the F. The V idea, I forgot to mention was primarily for Manhattan Bridge closings, when the Q is removed from 6th Av. But I hope thay are considering that now.
May be, Eric; can't remember which contributor posted the idea for
the V; could have been you. Any way,
there has been some talk about providing Culver Express service
as part of a service improvement package; since V is a naturally orange letter, thought that would be the incumbent for any new 6th Avenue service.
Wayne
Via the 63rd st tunnel possibly onto Queens blvd
I've brought up the V service a few times. The slant R-40s have orange V signs (if not all of them, at least some).
I wouldn't mind giving those south of Church a rush hour express -- IF rush hour headways were maintained at five minutes north of Church. Let's say the TA ran six "Vs" per hour to Brooklyn as a rush hour local to Church. That, plus the 6 Gs, would give me one train every five minutes. I could change to the F at 7th Avenue, if I happend to board a G.
But what about those at Carrol St? They would have a choice between six Gs, which do not go to Jay St, and six Vs, which do. That's a service cut -- once every ten minutes to Jay St and Manhattan, not once every five minutes. Hence the Bergen St lower level, which would allow those boarding the G at Carrol, Smith 9th or 4th Ave, to switch to an express to Manhattan.
As an alternative, the six Vs and the six Gs could go to Coney Island, and the 12-14 Fs could turn around at Church, during rush hour. But you'd have to shift the G to the express track. Or you could just run 12 Vs to Church, but that plus the F plus the G may be more service (and cost) than the Culver justifies.
If the Manhattan Bridge closes, the plan I saw called for 15 F and V trains each, to Coney Island. But for some reason they would both be local all the way
(If the Manhattan Bridge Closes?) If the TA is planning to just abandon the bridge if the game of chicken goes to the end, the plan should be publicized. Once those living in Borough Park, Flatbush, Bensonhurst, Midwood, Flatbush, Bay Ridge, Sunset Park, etc figure out what this would mean to their commute, I guarantee attention would be paid to the bridge.
I know why all the trains would be local. Because there would be buses arriving -- after half hour trips in heavy traffic -- at every stop. Then you would get on a packed Culver for a hellish hour ride in. That's how this disaster would affect me, even though I ride the F. All for the want of a couple of connections to existing tunnels which should cost $100 million each (I didn't say they would cost that much just that they should cost that much).
If you ever see a copy of that again, you just might want to anonymously send it to a few subway-sensitive reporters.
This was from the same East River Crossings study I often mention, and first posted about last year. I keep a copy of it in my permanent collection of subway related literature. If possible, maybe one day I could scan some of the service plan tables and upload it?
If you could copy the "disaster scenario" and send it to me, I'd appreciate it. NYC Dept. of City Planning, 22 Reade St Rm 4N, New York NY 10007-1216.
In my spare time, I'll tabluate how much time lost/how much crowding, and translate that into people moving out, spending power lost, local jobs lost in the affected neighborhoods. As far as I'm concerned, this is the "no action scenario" in planning lingo -- what happens if you do nothing. If the affected neighborhoods decline enough, you don't need the subway anymore. I call this the "social adjustement scenario." Perhaps if they build the LIRR to GCT connection at the same time, another generation of Brooklynites with Manhattan jobs, and the jobs which depend on their spending, can flee to Long Island -- leaving the housing stock to one generation of public assistance recipients, followed by abandonment.
Perhaps I can get City Planning to add it to the East River Crossings re-study. Heck, I got the transportation division to do it, and they managed to get funds. Unfortunately, I doubt the politicians will allow a report to be released which lists writing off a whole section of a borough as an option, do you?
I'd love to read this document. If you don't post, at least please e-mail tome Thank you.
So I "Fail to miss the point" ? In other words, I get the point? Or is it that your brains are generating so little power that you can't type coherently.
I don't mind discussing transit issues with people but I will not discuss them with ill-mannered, illiterate morons who have little command of the subject at hand and even less of the english language.
Crawl back in your cage and I'll bang on the bars when I want you.
Even though the V train may be the one used as the local, there is still one problem. Living in Brooklyn Heights, and using the Bergen St. station, a person would actually have less Manhattan bound service to that station with the express train skipping that station. The local politicians of Brooklyn Heights would never allow express service to resume in that area without a stop for that train there. In addition, when there was express service there, there was a local F marked Kings Highway and an express marked Coney Island. When the lower level at Bergen St. was closed, the people in that area did not like having the express trains skip that station, so the Culver express was cut back to express service from 18th Ave to Kings Highway. There would be no difference by having a V or Kings Highway local F.
Maybe THIS is the answer: Leave the F service AS IT IS - and simply ADD the
V service as the express from either
Kings Highway or Church Avenue.
In addition to the "aesthetics" (i.e. the Naked Walls), what other
work might be needed to make the Bergen Street lower level usable?
I suspect that there is a lighting deficiency (i.e. "bulbs") down
there. (based on observation from front of "F" train traveling south
from Jay Street prior to switching to upper level tracks). Installing
flourescent light is a fairly serious undertaking. Also there is
the matter of those silver doors on the upper level. Does merely
opening them provide sufficient access to the lower level or is there
some other impediment...
Let's hear it from the Carroll Gardens/Boerum Hill folks on this.
Wayne
The bergen St. lower level is missing adequate lighting and more importantly, the walls that the tiled was plastered to was also removed leaving the bare tunnel walls with the columns that hold up the side of the tunnel exposed. Where the wall used to be is now a ditch in the platform.
Was there ever subway service from Bergen lower level?
F trains used it during rush hours from 1968 to 1976.
Wait! A common practice is to run "express on the local" (make express stops but run on the local track. A Culver express can be run using the local track and calling Bergen Street an "Express" stop, After Smith and Ninth they can switch over to the Express track.
Does Bergen Street really justify recreation of express service? if riding towards city the next stop is jay street. Do Bergen St riders going toward Coney Island require express service? the worst mistake the Ta could start is skip stop service like on the 1/9 or on the J/z both are a waste of time to implement.
I am in a program called CITYterm. We go to a boarding school in dobbs ferry, NY. We do a semester-long study of NYC. Right now i am trying to learn about what powers the subway today, and in the past, any info you could give me would be great! thanx
~Ian
I am in a program called CITYterm. We go to a boarding school in dobbs ferry, NY. We do a semester-long study of NYC. Right now i am trying to learn about what powers the subway today, and in the past, any info you could give me would be great! thanx
~Ian
Greenizm@hotmail.com
I'm sure SubTalk is swarming with folks who would be happy to provide you with an answer, but it would help if you could flesh out the question just a tad. The short answer, to the point of being smart-assed, is, "electricity" -- but surely you're asking something more detailed than that?
The subway proper, other than one early, short, isolated, and unsuccessful experiment with pneumatic cars, has always been electrified, though the early elevated lines started service with small steam locomotives.
600 Volts DIRECT CURRENT (DC) powers the electric motors.
The interior lights run off AC which is converted onboard from the DC.
As was posted by Alan Follett, the early elevated railroads were
powered by steam "dummies" (small locomotives).
Since 1904, the subway has been all-electric.
In Friday's *PRINT VERSION* of USA Today, D Section (Destinations), there is a front page article, "Grand Revival", all about the rehabilitated Grand Central Station. Several photos and diagrams list the changes. Also noted are other cities' train stations that are undergoing major changes/rehabs.
One item listed on the diagram is the Transit Museum and Shop, on the west concourse, next to the Station Master's Office.
(No mention of the infamous lower levels!)
This May when I was in NYC, I noticed that an A train was running local on CPW before midnight on a weekday. Isn't it an express til midnight?
Also, why was the Lex line from Grand Central to 103st, built on two levels for express and local? That must make for aggravating transfers at 86 st and 59 st. Wasn't 86 st. originally built as an express station (I know that 59 st. was not)? Were there geographical / enviornmental factors such as Lexington ave being two narrow to cut and cover for four tracks?
Lexington ave from 42 St to 125 St is rather hilly, and the tunnel was dug to keep the local track within a reasonable stair climb of ground level. 86 St just happens to be a low spot and so became the logical choice for an express stop.
The A train will normally run express until midnight. However, circumstances might dictate service changes at times. There are two common reasons that these cchanges might happen. The first is due to a general order. G.O.s are documents which lay out service changes, reasons, hours of the change, alternate routes or tracks to be used, supplimental schedules in effect and who will be in charge. The other is a temporary diversion of service due to mechanical, or electrical failure or an accident. TA rules state that an express train re-routed via local tracks will make express stops only, however, if there was a disruption in local service, the A train may have been run on the local to make up the service.
Actually the A line runs express in manhattan until 10:30 because the c line stops at that time.sometimes when i worked the a line i would leave 207st about 1100 and run local to lefferts blvd or far rockaway
I've been on a few rerouted express trains during the last few years: an uptown D switched over to local between W. 4th and 34th (I believe it stopped at 14th and 23rd, if I remember right); an uptown 3 switched over to the local track past 14th St. (due to a work train at 34th) which skipped 18th, 23rd, and 28th; a few downtown D trains south of 145th St. which ran express; and a Queens-bound F switched over to local past Queens Plaza. That F operator honked his horn in a series of short beep-beeps as we passed each local stop; it rubbed off on me. I find myself doing that on occasion when approaching an intersection with a green light.
It's even more fun when a local gets rerouted onto the express track. I rode a downtown 1 once which was running express, and on another occasion caught an uptown N at Union Square which was running express. Apparently, there was a stalled train st 34th St., and trains were backed up all along the local track.
As I said, if a train is re-routed from an express to a local,due to a General Order, normally it will make nly express stops. However, if there was a delay in F service (to use your example), a D train might be re-routed via the local route to make up for the missing F service.
The rules regarding this are quite flexible and should never considered hard and fast
And that's what makes it fun when you get one of these diversions. I was once on a stalled Express. They brought up another nose-to-tail, we walked to the second, then they backed her up to the station where we walked across the platform & completed our trip downtown.
Mr t__:^)
The transfer from express (lower level) to local (upper level) at
86th Street is not that bad - one short (18 steps) flight up.
59th Street is down a little further (it was an afterthought, opened
in the early 1960s) and requires an escalator link or two flights
of stairs up. If you go the stairway route, you get a look at a fabulous tile mural in the transfer mezzanine. You have to see this
to believe it - it covers ALL FOUR walls, floor to ceiling.
Wayne
The first Southbound All-local A-train leaves 207 St shortly after
10 PM. The first Northbound All-local leaves Euclid aroud 10:30 PM.
Is anyone planning to go on the 10th or 11th of October to this
event. I'd be happy to meet some of my fellow subway & train buffs.
We're a unique group of people!
I will also be there as a volunteer, and my badge number on my hat is 2538. I wear a bus operator policeman style hat unlike my fellow members who prefer the railroad style type of cap.
I will be there on 10/10 as part of the trip with the NY Transit Museum.
This will be my first time at Branford in 15 years.
Thankfully, as a memeber, I have been kept up-to-date about the goings on but I can't wait to see it.
See you there!!
Hope you all had a great day at Shoreline. Please update us on what you saw and what you did. Sorry I missed it.
You haven't. New York Days is OCTOBER 10 & 11. It's still September (like the 27th where we are.
Thanks Dan. After I poseted I noticed that I was looking at the date of the last post not the date of the event. I still will not be able to be there and expect to hear all about it here.
As most of you probally know, they're primarily a Trolley Museum, so they have many NYC vintage Trolleys, but Labor Day, when I was there, I saw a couple of NYC subway cars (incl the one in Dave's picture) and a "Red Bird" that look ready & willing to give you a great time.
P.S. Does anyone know when they are going to fix up the PCC "Dallas Car", from SEPA, or the Trackless Trolley (bus) ?
Mr t__:^)
That Redbird you saw was R-17 #6688. It looks great, both inside and out, and still takes off like a bullet. I'll bet it was in the best shape of any car at the time of acquisition that the Museum has. It was painted Redbird red before it was retired.
Chances are you also saw R-9 #1689 or Lo-V #5466 or possibly Hi-V #3662.
Too bad NYC Days won't be on October 25th. I'm heading back to Denver from LGA and will be driving down from Connecticut. Maybe one of you Subtalkers who will be there can play conductor and open and close the doors on 1689 for me.
The Franklin BMT shuttle, used by relatively few, gets funded for reconstruction (how many $$?). The Franklin IRT junction, used by many, and in need of a flyover/under improvement to speed train movements through it, gets zero $$. Why? What reconstruction/renovation projects are on the books for future years and what can be done to make sure that funding priorities put the most needed projects, user-wise, at the top of the priority list?
Politics - the people in Crown Heights cried louder. I think rebuilding that shuttle is a waste of money considering the low usage and the farebeating problem along the line.
it should be rebuilt. if it isn't ,it results in the loss of jobs for motorman.
I disagree. The reason to repair or rebuild transit infrastructure is to better serve its riders and potential riders, not to prevent the loss of motormen jobs. This response is based on the assumption that you mean what you say. If, on the other hand, you're just being a joker and playing games with your response, then what is your real view? I hope its not what you wrote and that you're really not that cynical.
Who are you to accuse me of being a joker? As a motorman,my job along with thousands of others are being attacked by TA management everyday.Of course I want the shuttle to be rebuilt to a more desirable level just as I want operator jobs to exist on the line.Don't you ever call me a joker again.Understand.
I am sure that no motormen would lose their job if the shuttle were to be eliminated. Natural job attrition will create new motorman openings.
I meant less jobs or runs if you will to choose from when we have our pick of jobs or runs twice a year.
[re rebuilding Franklin Shuttle vs. Franklin IRT junction]
[Politics - the people in Crown Heights cried louder. I think rebuilding that shuttle is a waste of money considering the low usage and the farebeating problem along the line.]
There were some sensitive political considerations beyond shouting. For many years now the Transit Authority has been getting a lot of criticism over the condition of the Shuttle. According to some claims, the Shuttle had been allowed to deteriorate so markedly because it was in a poor and mostly minority area. Rebuilding the Shuttle was a way of defusing these claims. What's funny is that the riders who are inconvenienced by the Franklin junction probably are minorities and non-affluent themselves.
The area around the shuttle may be minority, and not be rich, but it is not poor. There are a lot of nice houses over there. If the city's economy keeps growing, it could be a very affluent area 20 years from now. In fact, I think Prospect-Lefferts Gardens, just to the south, is the prettiest area of Brooklyn.
No one offered a direct tradeoff between the shuttle and rebuilding the Franklin Junction and/or the Manhattan Bridge, which would benefit many of the same people. When the money goes into a big pot, there is a tendency to grab what you can when you can.
I agree that the shuttle should have been scrapped in favor of other improvements, serving the same area, but where are the other improvements? Rebuilding the Franklin Ave shuttle makes about as much sense as rebuilding the Manhattan Bridge to maintain train service.
Except that the Mnhattan Bridge carries many more subway passengers than the shuttle ever will. But I like your forgivably suspicious view that the MTA is rebuilding it for the future gentrification of the surrounding areas. Here on Staten Island a lot of people want North Shore line passenger service restored, thinking that improved rail service will revitalize the badly run down neighborhoods along the line. It's the 'if you build it they will come' theory of transit planning.
That's a rarity - people who want mass transit to IMPROVE their neighborhoods. It's also interesting to note for those NIMBY's who don't want things like the 2nd Avenue subway how these neighborhoods became so rundown DESPITE the lack of easy rail access.
In reference to the viability of rebuilding the North Shore line - doesn't the area already have bus service to the ferry, including along the North Shore? Perhaps all you really need is bus lines that go from specific areas of SI directly to the ferry or a limited buses like in Manhattan (if not already done). Comments?
Staten Island has buses, but it doesn't have streets for them to run on. Even the modest street improvement proposal gingerly pushed by the SI borough president seems to have gone nowhere. A bus to the ferry -- even from close-in areas of SI (like an apartment on Victory Blvd) to close in areas of Manhattan could be over an hour trip.
My idea is to rebuild the North Shore Line, and the SIRT (which covers just 10% of its operating costs), with express busways. Buses (perhaps electric or fuel cell someday) would run through neighborhoods, get onto the busway, and either stop at "stations" along it run express to the ferry terminal or over the Verranzano direct to Manhattan.
I think Pittsburg has express busways direct to downtown --true? SI has about the same population and density as Pittsburg.
But then wouldn't the buses just cover about 10% of their operating costs? A 'busway' or 'light rail' has been mentioned for the North Shore line. The East Shore (St. George to Tottenville) line is here to stay. Guy Molinari's traffic plan got bogged down in the whole Richmondtown loop/tunnel proposal. In the 8 years I have lived here the traffic has increased enormously. I live in New Dorp which has a static population but we get the tons of traffic headed to the too-many new developments on the south shore. No easy answers, many of the streets here like Richmond Road, Amboy Road, and Arthur Kill Road are country roads filled to the max with autos and buses.
(New Dorp choked with traffic) Too bad they didn't extend Capodino Blvd further south, and too bad they didn't build the Willowbrook. It's hard to believe the only way down along the densely populated south shore is Hylan Blvd, a commercial street with lots of local traffic. It must be hell during rush hour.
Eastern Queens has roads but not subways, Brooklyn has subways (until the East River Bridges collapse) but not roads. Staten Island doesn't have too much of either.
BTW, I expect that buses on a busway would cover a far higher share of their costs than the SIRT. Rail has sky high fixed costs, but low variable costs. You need density to make it work, and SI doesn't have it and doesn't want it. Buses are more cost effective at SI density.
[BTW, I expect that buses on a busway would cover a far higher share of their costs than the SIRT. Rail has sky high fixed costs, but low variable costs. You need density to make it work, and SI doesn't have it and doesn't want it. Buses are more cost effective at SI density.]
One thing to keep in mind that the SIRT's infrastructure is already in place. Its next big capital expenditure will be replacement of the rolling stock, but that's presumably some years off. Converting to a busway would require a significant amount of construction activity and the purchase of a bus fleet.
I suspect that the savings in operating costs would take many years to pay off.
(Cost of converting to busway would take years to pay off).
That's true if cost savings are the goal. On the other hand, if the goal is a one-seat ride to Manhattan from broad areas of the island, the busways would be cheap. The alternative would be several subway lines, connecting to a tunnel over the harbor either direct to Manhattan or through Brooklyn (which would then have to compete with Brooklyn trains for limited capacity).
Buses, on the other hand, could run on SI streets before running express down the busways. Then they could go over the Verranzano, which already exists. The SIRT can't do that. And it would provide quicker access to the ferry -- local streets to St George aren't up to the job.
Of course, this would have to be coordinated with a bus lane on the reconstructed Gowanus, to bring the buses direct from the north and south shores to the Battery Tunnel. But no one is thinking about this.
The only problem is that a "bus" solution (re:Express/one seat) is a money looser. Local bus service gets much closer to paying for operations out of the Farebox, but even with a $3.00 fare the Express is a bad long term idea. Fare better to bite the bullet & build the rail in the first place.
Yes, I work for a bus company that runs local & express, and yes we have lots of loyal happy express riders. We'll keep providing the service as long as the city wants us to. And we do spend a lot of effort on the SERVICE part of our operation, but the above is still my personal opinion.
Mr t__:^)
Extending Father Capodanno Blvd required the permission of the US Department of Interior because it would have to pass through the shore end of the Gateway National Recreation Area which included Miller Field. The Dep. of Int. has always said NO. Hylan is getting worse and worse during the rush hours. The only alternates are Richmond Road and Amboy Road which being two-lane roads can't handle the volume like four-lane (six-lane in some places) Hylan Blvd. The NYC DOT has been 'studying' a peak-rush bus lane along Hylan since 1990, you know the rest.
The Capodanno extension makes too much sense. If you pull out a map you'll see that no one would be displaced by it and that the beach areas will be just as accessable as they are now along the existing portion of Capodanno Blvd, a few traffic lights will fix any pedestrian-crossing issues. So no one would lose anything except a tiny sliver of Miller Field.
Federal politics poisons the Capodino Blvd issue. The Federal government owns a lot of land in western states, and western Republicans hate all the pro-conservation rules imposed on them by eastern liberals -- lack of roads through the wilderness being a key issue. So they would love to say screw you to a request to run a road through a federal park in New York City, the place they all hate. For their part, the enviro-nuts wouldn't want such a precedent to be set, and no one on our end is willing to press it because the only Staten Islanders who show up to meetings yell NIMBY about everything. Whenever I raise the issue at City Planning, the usual response is "life is too short."
To me, Gateway is just another example of how the Feds screw the city and entire Northeast region. With the Riis Park bathouse falling down and Floyd Bennett field undeveloped, the city had this great idea. Give all the land to the federal government, and they would have to do something with it, so we would get some money and benefits. The Feds have not put money in at all. Riis Park is still falling down, and Floyd Bennet Field is still undeveloped. Instead, they use the parking fees at Riis Park to fund their operations elsewhere. It is a worse deal for the city than the MTA -- yet another sin committed by that idiot, Lindsey.
I say, turn the national parks over to the Western States. Eliminate the control, and the subsidy. Those people out there are not idiots, and if they want to keep their tourism economy, they'd have to come up with the rules and money to maintain and preserve their scenic beauty. And if they did allow it to deteriorate (which the Feds seem to be doing anyway), that's just more tourist dollars into the "Forever Wild" Adirondaks. Then we can extend Capodino Blvd.
[re western Republican opposition to a road through Miller Field]
What sort of condition is Miller Field in? It may be part of Gateway NRA, but as it's an old military base I suspect that it's a long way from being bucolic wilderness. It would seem silly in the extreme to block road construction there because the federal government restricts such construction in remote western parks. But then again, silliness is not wholly uncommon in politics ...
Miller Field is exactly that, a field. Mostly, it's used all summer for youth soccer. There is still some of the base housing, which is occupied, and 2 old hangers (maybe one, unless there were 3...there was a major fire there about 10 years ago...) Extending Father Cap (formerly Seaside Blvd) would also nessitate widening New Dorp Lane, because it too is a 2-lane country road.
-Hank
The extension isn't even a nimby issue, it wouldn't go through anyone's backyard. The only major change would be that Cedar Grove Avenue would become a service road for the extended Capodanno. And even there a buffer of existing wooded area would lessen the impact. Traffic off of the extension would feed into existing main roads, not side streets. Intersections could be built at New Dorp Lane, Ebbitts Street, Tysens Lane, then through Gateway turning slightly west to Hylan Blvd at Buffalo Street, all roads in decent shape.
The advantages to express bus service are obvious. Buses heading to the south shore could run on Capodanno all the way down to Great Kills. Buses serving New Dorp and Oakwood could turn off at Ebbitts Street. The biggest advantage would be that car and bus through traffic could bypass the crowded commercial corridor of Hylan Blvd between Seaview Avenue and Tysens Lane. Again it makes too much sense, more sense that building either the Willowbrook or extending the Richmond Parkway through the Greenbelt.
A Staten Island guy who was big in the Lindsey Administration worked here for a while. Lindsey gave in to every special interest that existed to buy himself an extra term, and killed a shorefront highway all the way down the SI south shore. He said they thought they were being good, anti-Moses liberals, but it was a terrible mistake.
South of Great Kills, all you get along the waterfront is a small number of luxury homes. Had the road been built as an Ocean Parkway type boulevard with intersections, instead of a limited access highway or not at all, you'd have a boardwalk and public access all the way down to Tottenville. You'd have parking fields at the public parks, which could be used for express bus park and ride during workdays, and parking on the street next to the Boardwalk, as on Capodino Blvd. The stoplights would mean that the ride to the Verranzano would not be as fast as on a highway. But it would a lot faster than on Hylan Blvd.
Everywhere on the coast the lesson is the same -- road along the beach = public access. Streets ending at the beach = no public access. Staten Islanders lost a boulevard and a beach. Lindsey won an election. Kind of makes you wonder how their selling out the future in this election cycle. By praying the Manhattan Bridge subway access isn't cut off before Giuliani and Pataki win higher office, perhaps?
That's right, I think it was going to be known as the 'Shorefront Parkway'. Old road maps show it as 'proposed'. At the time of it's planning those big homes weren't built yet. A local councilman had a proposal for a viaduct version of the 'Shorefront', it would be built in the water from Midland Beach southward (lots of luck).
If you look to the long run, it might still be possible to extend Capodino Blvd down to Tottenville. All it would take is one good hurricane.
Pittsburgh has a busway system. Its 1990 population, according to the World Almanac, is 359,000. For the largest busway system in North American, though, go to Ottawa, Ontario. In that city (Canada's capital), a busway system covers most of the city and some surrounding areas (in Ontario only, not Quebec). There are stations much like a light rail line would use. In fact, the system is designed for future conversion to light rail, if needed.
Is there also a busway near Bergenline Avenue in the Union City, North Bergen, Weehawken area? NJT bus timetables for the 156 and 159 mention a busway service, although haven't heard anything else about it.
Well, I expect the Franklin Ave. shuttle rehab will sucessfully accomplish its engineering goals. Whereas the opinion here is that the Manhattan Bridge cannot be properly repaired. So there is quite a bit of difference there.
Lets also remember that it will probably take 20-100 times more money to replace the Manhattan Bridge than it is taking to rebuild the Franklin Shuttle. I'd also be willing to bet that building new transfers in downtown Brooklyn to replace the transfers the shuttle provides would cost about as much as the shuttle rehab is costing.
The Shuttle also provides flexibility to the TA by making it possible to get riders up to the IND line in the event of a big Manhattan Bridge problem, etc.
Yes, the Shuttle does not have a huge number of riders. Either do the last few stops of many lines. Should we just let them deteriorate, and then abandon them, too?
Major critical links like the Franklin junction & Manhattan Bridge must be dealt with. Even though some Brighton Line passengers can transfer to the shuttle, then transfer to the IRT or IND in the event of a Manhattan Bridge closure, that's still an undesirable way to get to Manhattan. Changes should result in improvements like eliminating the need for changing trains and walking from one line to another, not creating such impediments. And if you're a 4th Ave. user (B,M,N,R), then you don't have the Franklin Shuttle "opportunity". What do these folks do? Recognizing that both Brighton and 4th Ave. users have access to the slow, already jammed, Montague St. tunnel is not an acceptable answer. Giving in to political pressure trashes logical transit planning and implementation based on needs. There's no way the Franklin Shuttle "beats" the Franklin Junction rebuild and Manhattan Bridge replacement need, based on usage and recognizing the lines near the Franklin Shuttle that directly service those areas.
Right near the bumping block of track M1 at Metropolitan, there are food and water feeders set out for a bunch of cats that live in the station. Just this past night, when I entered, I looked to see if any of the cats were around, and instead, out pops a big raccoon from the woods (freight track) behind the fence. he eats some, and then slips under the fence. I did'nt know there were raccons in that area. It was so interesting to see one on the trackbed of the subway!
There is a regular wildlife preserve there! We've had familes of racoons too. One of the friendly black cats who frequented the platform at nite was given a home by a passenger. You will see birdfeeders there also as during the day many muti-colored birds stop by for a few seeds. Years ago, we also had rabbits, but they died out. We also have several squirrels: One of them must have gotten his tail cut off. It is better to have the racoons on the roadbed eating than being on the platform going thru the trash & solar cans. There is actually a racoon problem in the neighborhood: lots of greenery: Lutheran, Mt. Olivet & St. John's Cemetaries and Juniper Valley Park are nearby. As you mention, the racoons only come out late at night when it is very quiet there.
Following up on the Metropolitan raccoons, there are (or at least was until fairly recently) deer crossing signs on the el just outside of O'Hare Airport. They're those diamond-shaped yellow signs with a deer silhouette on them. (Where I live, the signs come unfinished, so they get bullet holes added after they're put up on the roads, generally with two days or so 8-) ). I don't know anywhere else in the country where a rapid transit line has deer-crossing signs. There are lots of possibilities I could name, but I haven't seen the signs used.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Around 1985, I was on an eastbound O'Hare train that was delayed by a whitetail doe on the tracks. It seems the creature had made its way across four lanes of Kennedy Expressway traffic, leaped the fence onto the CTA ROW, and then, finding itself unable to get up enough momentum in the confined space to jump back across, set off down the line toward Cumberlnd, with an eight-car train of 2200s in pursuit. Our frustrated motorman slowed to the pace of a befuddled deer and followed it almost to Cumberland--where it crossed over, and was chased back toward River Road by a westbound. According to news reports that evening, the county animal control officers managed to rescue it before it succumbed to collision or electrocution.
On Saturday September 26 1998, I picked up the book called The Subway by Stan Fischler. This is the enlarged and updated edition of the classic best seller of his previous book "Uptown, Downtown.''
This book has five chapters, 1:Early forms of transit, 2:Building the greastest railroad, 3:Diasters in the nyc subway, 4:Off the beaten track and 5:The anatomy of the underground.
This book also has 2 special bonus, Bonus #1: 150 photos of the nyc subway, old and new. Bonus #2 A detailed guide to enjoying the nyc subway.
I highly recommend this book to all who like the subway.
You can pick this book up at an major book store in the New York City Section.
Charlie Muller
One more thing about this book The Subway by Stan Fischler. It came out in 1997. Near the end of the book it rates all the subway lines, the IRT, BMT and IRT from 5 stars which equals highest rating to 1 star which equals hardly worth the token. You will notice that the C train is listed as going from Bedford Park Blvd in the Bronx to Brooklyn and the B Train going from 168th street to Coney Island. As we all know the C train now goes from 168th Street to Euclid Aveand the B train goes from Bedford Park Blvd to Coney Island, which started on March of 1998.
Charlie Muller.
I find it amusing that you mention this little inconsistency. Soon after I got my copy of Uptown Downtown (Hey -- book titles are supposed to be underlined...how do I do that in a posting? Todd?) The C and E trains swapped Southern Terminals -- Rockaway and Chambers St./Hudson Terminal, respectively. There were a few other changes made over the next few years, but since I was just in grade school when my parents gave me my copy of the book, I felt obliged to "correct" the book. The pages are covered with huge blobs of white-out and my elementary school scrawl attempts to portray accurately the status quo of the subway system in circa 1978. If I could only turn back time...
I know what you mean. You should see my mid-60s Hagstrom's subway map. It's all scribbled over; several Eastern Division BMT routes are obliterated, not just crossed out, and I even went so far as to write, "E stops here" next to 23rd St.-8th Ave because of my intense dislike for the E train back then. I also "corrected" terminals and route names; for example, I crossed out "Queens-Manhattan" for the F and wrote "Culver" in its place.
My 1967 TA map also has "corrections", but they're a bit tamer. Instead of crossing out strip maps of routes which were discontinued such as the JJ, RJ, and NX, I simply wrote, "Does not run". I did cross out references to discontinued routes on the route map as well as transfers on strip maps.
Actually, Tim, book titles are italicized. Use less-than i greater-than before the word, and less-than front-slash i greater-than.
Gee -- I guess I'm thinking back to college when I used to do everything with a typewriter!
What's a typewriter? :)
-Hank
It's an item which has gone by the wayside along with such other novelties as the 8-track cartridge, the LP, and the rotary telephone. Not to mention the R-1/9s, R-10s, etc. And bulkhead destination signs as well as marker lights once our beloved Redbirds ride off into the sunset.
What are they charging for it?
Thanks
Wayne
I paid $30 a few weeks ago at a GATS show near St. Louis, MO. It is a very good book.
I paid $30.00 for it at Barnes and Nobles at 66th street and broadway.
Charlie Muller
The story I got today on the Lo-V trip was they don't want passengers on trains around the loop because a woman who meant to get off at Brooklyn Bridge didn't and was sexually assaulted while the train she was on was going around the loop. We did go around the loop today and got a suprise: they have a Property Protection Person in a booth on the platform! An absolute waste of resources.
How about if your lo v trip went wront right there in the tunnel, fire, derailment, who do you think would have called for emergency personnel to rescue you? Idiot.
Very simply - there was a lot of TA supervision on the Lo-V trip and a lot of TA radios. If something went wrong they would have called for help.
Shows you how much Bus Operators know about trains.
By the way Bill, that wasn't a Property Protection booth on the platform, it was an NYPD booth.
Should have read your reply before I responded to Mr. MABSTOA. I guess I ASSUMED it was Property Protection & we all know what happens when we assume. This is probably the correct reason why no customers are allowed around City Hall Loop (not about my previous reasoning). Rudy is so worried about terrorism, he is in the process of making City Hall an armed fortress.
<< Rudy is so worried about terrorism, he is in the process of making City Hall an armed fortress. >>
There's a new movie due out soon starring Denzel Washington and Bruce Willis where this is exactly what happens: due to acts of terrorism, the military locks down NYC and turns it into an armed fortress.
That's the movie where a city bus gets blown up, right?
The filming of that shot was around Williamsburg--I saw it myself from a J train a few months ago.
Just a little puzzled, though -- when I saw a preview for that movie, I noticed that the windows on the bus were all *solid*, and all Transit Authority RTS buses have two windows on each side that open . . . . . something tells me this is another Transit Masquerade.
It makes you wonder if Rudy is afraid of his own shadow. This feeling still prevails in former Soviet-occupied countries.
I really dont know what was there since I wasn't there, but you are right, bus operators dont know about the subways, DUH. The Property protection agent title is a very good thing we have at NYC transit. Many employees who suffer from assualts or layoffs are usually given this title and it is better than having no job at all. And like many of our jobs transit is looking of ways to eliminate this title by contracting out private security companies.
My only objection to Bills posting was that this title is waste of money, because one day Bill or I may need this job heaven forbid something bad happens to us on the job. My apology for my nasty response.
As a TWU fellow worker, I deeply resent being called an idiot. You & I don't like it when our "customers" call us that so you shouldn't use that word on me. The Property Protection Agent is not there to protect customers going around the loop, as they are not allowed to be on the #6 trains there in the first place. We were there only for a fan trip today. In case of fire, (I have been a motorman for almost 18 yrs.) we try to get the train into the next station, move customers away from the smoke & use our radio for help. In the bus all you have to do is pull over & everybody gets off immediately.
Subways are fun buses are not.But in escaping from fire, buses are best.(Sorry Meowers and Li'l Pinta).
Subways are fun buses are not.But in escaping from fire, buses are best.(Sorry Meowers and Li'l Pinta).I consider saying that buses are good is something bad.
I certainly think all MABSTOA drivers are idiots.Example,all those givebacks Local 100 is involved in.Your department is responsible for the lousy leadership we currently have.If we had some better leadership in there we wouldn't have to put up with such things as excess time on the bus or train(in my case),excess discipline,privatization.What has the leadership done in relation to those issues?nothing.Do you think that the leadership will aggresively pursue the surplus that was revealed?I don't think so.What will happen is the TA will cry poverty Local 100 will give in and MABSTOA will overwhelmingly vote for the next contract(90%-10%)like they usually do.MABSTOA drivers are indeed IDIOTS!!!!!!!
<< MABSTOA drivers >.
What do these letters stand for?
MANHATTAN AND BRONX SURFACE TRANSIT OPERATING AUTHORITY
I apologize again to Bill, but when I read your post there was no indication that you were an employee as I posted in a previous post. However Mike, not all OA employees were fooled by the last re election and the 20/50 con game. I myself was not fooled and refuse to be fooled by the current leadership. And I know for a fact that bus operators are called names far more than train operators.
Easy does it, Mr M! If I counted all the "official" folks by their NYCT vests, and the several "unofficial" but system workers on a day off, there were plenty of folks and radios to go around and save us from any disaster. No need for the inflammatory comments about your underground brethren. Aside from which I'm sure dispatch would be right on top of any disruption in the regular service pattern due to problems with the special train. Let's think before we leap with insults at the ready next time.
So if there's now a NYPD patrolman sitting in a booth all day (and all night??), and the platform is being patrolled, why the ban on the "Day One" on the IRT tour? The platform has gone unattended and unprotected for all these years without the need for such protection. The only way in or out is the loop tunnel. If there is a NYPD presence while the tour is being conducted, there should be no problem, right? Or, if the tour can't detrain, at least have everyone board the same car (or set of cars) and stop at the platform for 2 minutes so everyone can at least have a look at it.
How long is that guy's shift? That's gotta feel REAL long.
Also, the loop tunnel is VERY well lit now all the way around. The station itself seems more dimly lit than the tunnels.
--Mark
Many thanks to all involved for making this a most enjoyable excursion. We are unlike the average passenger in that we enjoy the nostalgic sounds of the roaring motors, the swishing of the releasing brakes & the smell of brake shoes! Sure it's noisy with the windows open and hot with no a/c (one car even had b/o fans) but you KNEW you were taking a ride on something unique. The best part: SPEED: you don't realize how much the regular trains were slowed down until you experience how fast these cars can go on the Lex. Exp. And top speed is accomplished in short order. Finally, the cars looked great with the re-painting.
I heard a fellow employee mention the low v excursion passed E 180th st what was the starting point?
Grand Central Shuttle track 1
Greetings,
Does anyone have any Trackmaps or Trackcharts of
the SIRTOA ,,showing Tracks,switches,,interlocking
points and platform locations,,,circa 1998''
Thank you...Steve
I'd doo it, if I could draw at all. I would like to work with (why can't I remember the name??) Peter? on doing this as sort of a side project...
-Hank
Does anyone have any updated ETT for either or both Railroads
Thanks,,,,Steve
Cleaning up around the house yesterday I came across a pile of subway maps in my den and took a look at some. I was looking at an ad for "Steel, Stone and Backbone" on the back of the May 1996 NYC subway map. There was a photograph of some guys obviously constructing the subway. The picture had a date and place written at the bottom-4th Avenue and 20th St, 6-6-01. I thought the end of 4th Av was Union Square Park.
Also, How many people here know that when riding Philly's Regional Rail, a ride between Market East and 30th St.(including Suburban Station, a distance of 20 blocks) is free?
Finally, does anyone know why trolleys are suddenly running along 38th and 40th Sts.? This isn't the usual Monday morning detour, these are routings all day long. What's up?
It's not an error, actually. 4th Ave. once extended farther North than Union Square. Through 1956, my maps show the name Park Avenue only above 34th Street. Does anyone know when the name "Park Avenue South" was given to the section between 14th and 34th Streets?
[It's not an error, actually. 4th Ave. once extended farther North than Union Square. Through 1956, my maps show the name Park Avenue only above 34th Street. Does anyone know when the name "Park Avenue South" was given to the section between 14th and 34th Streets?]
Park Avenue South got its present name sometime in the middle to late 1950s. "Fourth Avenue" can still be seen on a building or two. And don't forget that there still is a small stretch known as Fourth Avenue, from 14th Street to the Cooper Union area.
I could never forget 4th Avenue -- Astor Place was one of my "home" stations!
[I could never forget 4th Avenue -- Astor Place was one of my "home" stations!]
Fourth Avenue's current fate is sort of sad, as the sole remaining stretch bearing that name is nondescript, to say the least. I've never quite figured out why most of it was changed to Park Avenue South. Could businesses have wanted a more prestigious address? Though I suppose rough justice of a sort is being served - Park Avenue South will soon be losing its largest business, Guardian Life Insurance ... could this be Fourth Avenue's revenge :-)
You can call it whatever you want. After all Avenue of the Americas never quite caught on as a replacement for Sixth Av. ...And nobody in Boston refers to the Circumferential Highway as anything other than Route 128, despite its being advertised by the highway dept as I-95, I-93, US-1 and God knows what else in various places. Just don't get the out-of-towners all confused! :)
Gerry
PS:
In Brookline and Brighton there is a Street which is Winchester/Kelton/Warren/Sparhawk/Arlington St. All that without a single turn. The name changes at every light - And once at the Boston-Brookline line for good measure.
Here's the Baltimore item (one of ????): In northeast Baltimore there is a street named Walther AVENUE. It has a center grass median (No, it wasn't a possible streetcar line) so what do the locals call it? Walther BOULEVARD. In Baltimore County there's a fairly new street connecting Rossville Blvd. / Putty Hill Ave. with Joppa Road. What's it called? Why Walther Boulevard.
The two don't connect.
Baltimore streets are famous for changing names several times, or becomming one-way (in the opposite direction).
Example: Maryland Avenue becomes Cathedral Street which becomes Liberty Street which changes to Sharp Street. Got that?
4th Av from 17th to 32nd Sts was renamed to Park Av. S. about 1960.
Park Av. numbers separately, beginning at 32nd St and numbering from 34th St (divide house number by 20 and add 34). Many of the avenues show this discrepancy. It appears that it must have been considered chic or exclusive to have a low numbered address on an avenue, and so many avenues stretched out the first 100 numbers over more than 5 blocks.
Bob Sklar
The Sunday edition of Newsday had an article about ANOTHER study about bringing a rail connection to LaGuardia.
$600,000 is being given to Dowling College. The study is being done on their big, $9M, mainframe (no one is going out on the streets to count folks, look at raods, possible routes, etc.).
They're going to use am intermodal virtual-reality approach to transportation system planning, says Clifford Bragdon, VP for Adv. Tech. & Pgm Devel.
Here's the funny part ... "Four of the five senses can be stimulated ...". They are: visual ... sound ... motion (a platform moves) ... aromacology (your favorite subway smells).
I'll bet this isn't exactly what Rudy thought he got form George when he stopped objecting to the JFK rail link ?
Disclaimer: I don't work for the MTA, TA or DOT.
Mr t__:^)
Hello All,
My name is Steve and I would like to have just a little something cleared up.
I will be visting NYC in two weeks(From London) and have been a tube/subway fan for 12 years. I was looking at an unnamed travel guide which lists the shuttle to the Rockaways as the 'H' but the official MTA map says it is the 'S'. Can it be called both?
I've heard of the Rockaway Park Shuttle being called both the S and the H, but the former seems more common. Both the 42nd Street and the (temporarily suspended) Franklin Avenue Shuttles are known as the S and no one seems confused.
For a time in the late 80s, it was the H. Then it was undesignated, then it just became the S.
-Hank
... but as late as August 24th, 1997, some Rockaway Park shuttle trains composed of Budd built R32s still portrayed the "H - Rockaway Shuttle" signs on the sides of the cars, even though the subway map refers to them as "S". In general, all shuttle trains usually take on the "S" designation. For instance you have "S" trains of
- the Times Square - Grand Central shuttle
- the Franklin Ave shuttle in Brooklyn, now closed for rebuilding
- the Dyre Ave shuttle, in the Bronx, between E 180 St and Dyre Ave
- The Rockaway Park shuttle
--Mark
that's because on the r32's there is no roll sign for(s rockaway shuttle).they were used there in the summers because extra trains were needed for service to euclid ave.not enough decent r44s available i guess
by the way supervision wanted us to make sure that the end sign on the r32 rock park shuttle read s
I THOUGHT THE SHUTTLE DESTINATION WAS SS THATS WHAT I REMEMBER THE OLD CULVER SHUTTLE AND BY THE WAY THE FRANKLIN SHUTTLE IS COMING ALONG SLOWLY I PASSED BY AT ATLANTIC AVE AND FRANKLIN AND THE BRIDGE THAT CROSSES ATLANTIC AVE IS ALREADY TORN DOWN AND THEY ARE WORKING ON A REPLACEMENT DOES ANYONE KNOW A COMPLETION DATE????
Early 2000 for completion of the entire job on the Franklin "S"
although I have been told that there may be some limited access to
the stations by as early as Mid-1999 (that's when the trackwork,
bridgework and other forms of root canal may be done). They stopped
using double letters in the mid 80s I believe.
Oh, by the way, we tend to discourage the use of 'ALL CAPS' here,
so you might want to turn your 'Caps Lock' key off, unless, of course,
your keyboard or terminal does not support lower case, in which case,
never mind :o>
Wayne
Is this service Perm/or Temp? I think it should terminate at 205 st with the D line. (Rush Hour - via the B express and D local)
Officially it is S. Internally (within Transit for job bids, General Orders (G.O.s),etc is is the H. SO to answer tjhe question: it is both.
This is going to sound strange but my son's best friend's name is also Stephen Ives. That's strange! Is that a common name in England?
As for your question, The Rockaway Shuttle, as far as I knwo, is the BLUE 'S'(and at rush hours the 'A' runs out there too).
I think I may have seen that guide you were talking about as well. Was it one of those "Flashmap" type guides. The big ones like Fodor's(which rarely display transit maps) are usually pretty accurate.
When I was a Subway-MicroBuff in the mid 60's, and we lived in Howard Beach, the HH ran from Euclid Avenue to Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park. Trains were made up of R-1/9 cars. I believe (but I'm not sure) that they operated the "Round Robin" service during midnight hours, via the Hammel's Wye. Does anyone have info on the dates that the this service existed?
To all the folks out there, the H service has existed probably since the 1960s. One thing that I can be certain about is that the round-robin service ceased operations in October of 1992. The round-robin service was replaced by the 24 hour Broad Channel Shuttle Service (S service to Euclid Av during the summer), as well as A service full time. The only casualty was C service no longer went to Rockaway Park. Perhaps, it might be better if the C went to Lefferts Blvd being that it is the local. A service wouldn't have to go three ways(Lefferts, Far Rockaway, Rockaway Pk). I've heard somewhere that the TA was thinking of sending E service into Brooklyn again. Would anyone know this?
Trivia Question: What other designations did the shuttle receive? HH for round-robin, A for round-robin, CC for Broad Channel service, then H for all service, now S at the present time.
Cheers,
Constantine Steffan
Well, about the only thing left that it could have been is the 'SS'. It may have had that designation at some time in the late 60's or early 70's, but I'm not sure.
Bob Sklar
Why was the 'H' cut back to Broad Channel? For someone traveling to Rockaway Park, doing the transfer in Brooklyn would take of it and give the passengers an undisturbed ride across Jamaica Bay. Was it to somehow bolster use of the Broad Channel station(which before, and I assume now, isn't exactly the busiest station).
What happened is that when the line was cut back from being a round robin, they changed it from "H" to "S" figuring it was nothing but a small shuttle like the Franklin and Times Sq. It took time for this to catch on, and trains continued to display "H" for a while, and it usually takes maps a while to include these changes. If I'm correct, you may even be able to still find the H in MTA's website.
Don't they still refer to it as the "H" on the motormens' bid sheets?
I think they're over-using the "S"...now they have a gold S running out to 21st-Queensbridge.
Wayne
Maybe they are, but since none of these shuttles meet each other, except for an S on 6th Ave last few weekends, it doesn't really matter.
-Hank
For those that saw it, the "Subtalk Closing" post was a forgery. It was posted by someone using a computer at Nassau County Community College. I am 90% positive I know who it is since only one other person ever posted from their network. That whole site/network has now been banned from posting.
-Dave
p.s. before I take down SubTalk I'd convert it to password-required, which, who knows, might happen sooner than you think.
WHEW!
Thank God!
And to think how many unsuspecting buffs might have thought that the SubTalk was gone.
I hope you nail that guy's a** to the wall!
subtalk closing? what was that?
anyhoo, went searching the other day and came across the mta page and got a question. when did new york get rid of it's trolley system. i know there used to be service over the queensboro bridge.
was it because of expanding bus and/or subway service?
Dates of discontinuance vary among boroughs and companies. Streetcar lines in Manhattan which were operated by, I believe, New York Railways were removed in 1936. Third Ave. Railway Systems lines lingered until after WWII, the last line ending service in 1949. Service in the Bronx ended in 1952, and in Brooklyn in 1956. Queens I'm not sure. The Queensborough Bridge Trolley was the last to close up shop in 1957.
Dates of discontinuance vary among boroughs and companies. Streetcar lines in Manhattan which were operated by, I believe, New York Railways were removed in 1936. Third Ave. Railway Systems lines lingered until after WWII, the last line ending service in 1949. Service in the Bronx ended in 1952, and in Brooklyn in 1956. Queens I'm not sure. The Queensborough Bridge Trolley was the last to close up shop in 1957. Increased auto traffic, along with an anti-streetcar sentiment by city government led to their demise.
You're right about some of the dates. Here are last days that NYC Trolleys ran, by borough:
Manhattan/NY Railways: July 1936
Manhattan/Third Ave. Railway: June 1947
Bronx/Third Ave. Railway: August 1948
although Third Avenue's Yonkers based routes lasted until November 1952, and did physically enter the Bronx to connect with subways and Bronx surface routes.
Brooklyn/NYC Transit Authority - was originally BMT: October 1956
Queens/Steinway Lines, AKA Queensboro Bridge Railway: April 1957.
Other Queens routes that were BMT and NYC Transit were converted between 1947 and 1950. In the 1930's the predecessor companies of Jamaica Bus, Queens Transit, and Steinway Transit converted from trolley to bus.
The biggest impetus for bus conversions was Mayor LaGuardia's insistence that trolleys were old fashioned and internal combustion vehicles were the wave of the future.
If I'm not mistaken, Robert Moses also had something to do with trolleys disappearing from the New York scene. He once vowed to pull up every remaining trolley track in the city, if not Brooklyn. Interestingly enough, there were only three trolley routes remaining in Brooklyn by the early 50s, and that was only because they wanted to get 20 years out the PCC fleet. October 31, 1956 is easy to remember in terms of the end of trolley operation in Brooklyn - I was born three weeks later on November 19.
10/31/1956 ... Was it the Church Ave route (B35) that was the last one to close up?
--Mark
Mark,
Either the Church Av. route or the Bergen St. route. I remember both of them as a child (born 1950).
Bob Sklar
You're right. On Oct 31, 1956, the Church Ave. trolley was "bussed." On the same date, the McDonald Ave. route (#50) was abandoned without bus replacement. The Coney Island Ave. route (#68) was abadoned in November 1955. After the large Brooklyn trollley replacements in 1950-51 using the "Bingham" Mack buses, these were the only three trolley routes left (not counting the trolley coach routes operated out of Bergen and Crosstown depots that lasted till 1960).
BTW - to answer another related post - Mayor LaGuardia was the person most responsible for eliminating trolleys in New York, but he was no doubt influenced by Robert Moses, who always advocated rubber tires over rails.
Most likely on the take from the old City Transit Corp. That august body was created from General Motors, Standard Oil and Firestone Tire and Rubber. Get it?
That's right. General Motors built the buses, Standard Oil provided diesel duel, and Firestone supplied the tires. Los Angeles was also done in by this trio in terms of dismantling its streetcar system, which survived until 1963.
Same thing happened in the Twin Cities of Mpls/STPaul. When Twin City Rapid Transit went out of business, the PCC cars were sold to Newark NJ, for use in the City Subway. The cars are still in service.
BTW, I was in NYC in August, and, on a Saturday afternoon, took PATH to Newark to ride those cars. Stairs to the City Subway were closed by gates, with a small sign saying *No service on Sat. & Sun*. When did this start??
I'm glad Subtalk is not really closing. But I'm not sure my wife is.
David, I suspect you've got someone here at Nassau who stumbled upon your website and decided to play an unfunny practical joke...I have been a semi-frequent poster from here, and I know that I wasn't responsible for the forgery.
I'm glad I didn't see that; might have given me a heart attack!
I'd sure hate to lose one of my only links to those who share my muse.
Keep up the great work Dave
Wayne
You're among the lucky, Wayne. Got the defibrulator right here. SHOCK!
Ahh, that's better:)
For those that keep track of the exact date of various events ... Today Queens Surface Corp. received the first of 70 Orion CNG buses, this one marked #500, a second will arrive shortly and 15 more shortly there after now that the strike Upstate NY is apparently over. Command & Triboro Coach are also scheduled to receive Orion CNGs. In about a month you'll see them in service, i.e. after we train the drivers how to operate them.
Interesting side note: No sooner did they arrive then 4 mechanics & two foreman found that their seats were a great place to hang out.
Mr t__:^)
That's good, I just wish something could be done about those unsightly roof mounted tanks on CNG buses.
Well, I went back to the banks of the Raritan this weekend for the big homecoming game (WOOHOO RU 27 - Army 15... GO RU!) and took a look at some of the busses operating. It seems that they have added some RTS busses to the fleet, perhaps the permanent solution to the hole left by the Orions. They were in the lower 600 series numbers and were painted in some horrible black, scarlet (nearly orange), scheme with diagonal lines.
First off sounds like you boys had a great LO-V trip dispite the heat. I made the last two but couldn't make this one. A few questions for Philly and/or New York people. How does SEPTA'S 69th yard compare in size to some of New Yorks yards as far as size and actual car storage? Does Frankford yard have a maitenance shop or just yard? And lastly do you think NYCTA will bring there subway trains back to there maximun running speeds? Thank you for your imput
The current El fleet is about 240 and the new fleet will only number 220 passenger cars. 69th is slightly larger than Frankford and the fleet has always been (to the best of my knowledge) evenly split, more or less, although I don't know whether the cars are specifically assigned to either (I suspect not). Keep in mind that 69th also services the Kawasaki LRV's for the Suburban (Red Arrow) Division.
69th has an extensive maintenance shop and all heavy repairs are performed there. Frankford's barn is much smaller and I believe only inspections and running repairs are done there. With the reconstruction of the Frankford Terminal planned, the yard will change slightly and shrink to some degree. This may reflect the size of the coming fleet.
There are various sized yards on the NYCT system. From those I've seen, 69th and Frankford are on the order of 240th St and E 180th St yards. 239th St and Westchester seem slightly larger than either of the Phila facilities.
After a nice day on the Lo-V trip, I returned to Penn Station to catch an NJT train back toward Phila. In particular, it was the 5:32 Trenton train. There was a huge crowd waiting to board. In the past, I've always found Amtrak to be a disaster when it comes to loading trains at Penn, while NJT seemed to do much better. Yesterday, that was slightly different.
The train wasn't called until 5:26. This was only worsened by the change in the usual track location - most folks gathered around the east end stairways, while the train was called at track 13. At the platform, only a few doors were opened on the 10-car train, resulting in confusion and slowing of boarding. At the front of the train, the doors kept trying to close, only making passengers more nervous and pushy.
I asked some NJT folks on the platform about opening more doors. I was told brusquely to get on the train and don't worry about it - they wouldn't leave without anyone. They almost couldn't leave - the boarding was so slow, they were getting called, but people were still trying to board. (You could hear the banter between the crew members on the intercom!) This was, without a doubt, my worst trip ever on NJT, perhaps bad enough to make me reconsider using the train in the future.
I also can't understand why trains leave Penn 10 minutes apart for stops down to the junction at Rahway, while the Trenton trains leaving closer to the top of the hour skip these stops. It would seem that the train I took could have easily skipped the inner stops and left the Coast Line train to make these.
Is someone at NJT asleep at the controls? It is unusual for such a good organization.
My only 2 experiences with NJT both stunk.
First, going to trenton - the engineer was reading a newspaper, at least until some NJT official invted himself into the cab. Before that, the guy was reading the sports section, not even paying attention to the signals, speed, or anything. Also, he had the damm most annoying on off on off on off tecnique with the controller. Later that day, on the way home at trenton, the train was sitting there, dark and quiet. Being a the grungey teenager I was, I knew better than to sit in a dark, quiet trian and get yelled at. So, I waited on the platform. Boy was I surprised when the doors closed and the thing started up and away. No final boarding announcement or anything. And oh yes, this WAS the train, since the last car was full (I was near the front). As it left, I banged on the conductor's door, but got nothing more than a "sorry, I can't do anything to stop it", which is BS.
So then, I got the next train, an hour later. But there aren't any clocks on the platform level, and they only make a final call. Me and my friend run and run and run to the train, and BARELY make it. Mind you, I'm wearing boots, which slows me down.
The train car is one of those new "barbie" interior ones.
Comming into Penn, waiting as the door, the doors open. Only problem is the train is still going 5 or so mph. The first 2 people off in this car didn't notice this. This is an accident waiting to happen.
I'd take Amtrak over NJT, and given my hatred of Amtrak, that's saying something.
Just imagine how much fun it is to repeat that experience twice a day, every day. My favorite NJT experience is arriving at Penn station at around 5:35 (10 minutes late) every day to be greeted by the crowd you're mentioning trying to get on a train directly across the platform from the train I'm trying to get off. No matter what track we come in on, there's always a flood of people trying to come down the same stairs that we have to use to get off the platform. This always adds another 10 min. to my trip because they always schedule arriving and departing trains on the same platform.
Today I got yelled at for not taking my ticket with me when I left my seat . . . to get off the train. Whatever.
I've had conductors block me from getting on a stationary train and tell me to get the "one right behind us" which is 30 minutes later.
I've had doors slam in my face repeatedly because you have to walk the full length of the train to find one that wasn't closed to begin with. I've suffered through overcrowded cars when the conductors refuse to open cars that are available. My train home in the evening in now down to 6 cars from 10. That's a fun crowd to deal with. The conductors are always rude and confrontational. I miss SEPTA - and I never thought I'd say that.
NJT has gone downhill. At first I ranked PATH below NJT but PATH has s really improved their system and it now ranks as a quality system. NJT on the other is becoming arrogrant and is concerned with the building of monuments to their greatness- parking garages! They should be getting new cars, ore courtesy, repairing stations, etc. I have e-mailed them and gotten near flame responses to the point where I dont bother them anymore but look forwrad to the day I can tell NJT to get lost. Even SEPTA has improved and I'd rank it above NJT. NJT is no longer a pleasant ride. Miscreants play their cds so loud you canm feel the beat from the other end of the car and hear every bleeping word-they take up 6 seats and if the crew asks them to move their feet it is more bleeps. The other day I had a seat, a miscreant sat across the aisle from me and started cussing me out. I got up and stood so as not to get beat up. I am taking PATH more frequently and NJT less frequently. Thankfully there is another choice from Newark. I am giving seriosu thought of forgetting NY Penn altogether and sticking to PATH--at least PATH runs on time!
The post on SEPTA was correct. If SEPTA has done one thing right, it's been on the regional rail system, where service has been steadily improving (and it was generally good to begin with). Of course, one pays a premium for this treatment.
I use NJT very infrequently and have watched it decline over the years. It used to be that I wouldn't hesitate to drive to Trenton (about 35 miles from my house), park there for $6 for the day, and take the NJT train to NYC when I needed to do so. About 5 years ago, I did this for the last time. The trains were noticeably dirty, the riders a little scary, and the crews apathetic. The fare can't be beaten, but since then I've either driven to Journal Square and "PATHed" the rest of the way or parked at New Brunswick and used Suburban Transit's express buses.
I had taken one trip before the one mentioned above. I had vowed to give NJT one more chance after that one. That trip involved a very loud man who rode all the way from Trenton while refusing to pay. His tactic was to move from car to car, confront the conductor when approached for his ticket, scream profanities, then get up and walk away. The conductors allowed him to do this. When I questioned one of them why they didn't radio ahead for police, the schedule and "mind your own business - I got him to move to another car" were the excuses I got.
Imagine my feelings when the SAME idiot was on the train for my return trip! This time, the train was quite crowded and he was standing in a center door vestibule across from another man and me. He started right out of Penn and the crew ignored him. The passengers couldn't since there was nowhere to go. My fellow rider and I decided that Elizabeth was his last stop, where we pushed the moron off the train as the doors were closing, to a loud applause from other riders. Of course, WE caught grief from the crew for that, since we had no right to do so and the crew had arranged for police to meet us in Rahway (or so they said).
On my last trip before this past weekend, I took a Diesel Express back from Newark to Trenton. It was filthy, no AC, and fumes so strong in the train that I stunk when I walked in my front door. That was it until my "let's try it again" trip the other day.
Suffice it to say I will be hard pressed to come back. I'll either drive to J Sq or New B.
These two horror are distressing, especially to this group. From my home in LI when I have a reason to visit Manhattan there just isn't any other way to go but the LIRR ... the cost is reasonable, the train is clean, runs on-time (mostly in my 11 year experience), the trip is a pleasure, & the terminal connects you to anywhere, many just a short walk ... who could ask for more ?
Mr t__:^)
[I also can't understand why trains leave Penn 10 minutes apart for stops down to the junction at Rahway, while the Trenton trains leaving closer to the top of the hour skip these stops. It would seem that the train I took could have easily skipped the inner stops and left the Coast Line train to make these.]
They may need to stop because the Trenton trains immediately before and after your 5:32 train both skip all those stops. This would result in a 2 hour hole in southbound service to Trenton at Elizabeth, Linden, and Rahway.
[I asked some NJT folks on the platform about opening more doors. I was told brusquely to get on the train and don't worry about it - they wouldn't leave without anyone. They almost couldn't leave - the boarding was so slow, they were getting called, but people were still trying to board. (You could hear the banter between the crew members on the intercom!) This was, without a doubt, my worst trip ever on NJT, perhaps bad enough to make me reconsider using the train in the future.]
I met a prick conductor once who refused to wait 5 seconds so that the last ticket in our group of 4 would print at New Brunswick (the tickets were taking forever to print and we heard it being printed).
[The train wasn't called until 5:26. This was only worsened by the change in the usual track location - most folks gathered around the east end stairways, while the train was called at track 13. At the platform, only a few doors were opened on the 10-car train, resulting in confusion and slowing of boarding. At the front of the train, the doors kept trying to close, only making passengers more nervous and pushy.]
My observation is that most trains tend to be called about 6-7 minutes before their departure, making that train call about average. As far as which track they use.. trust me in varies every single day. If you aren't aware there is a website that shows the train board at Penn Station http://www.traintimes.com/ for NJ Transit and Amtrak. Two consecutive days when I had nothing better to do, I observed the big board and noticed that both Amtrak and New Jersey Transit used different tracks for almost every train compared to the day before. There is a tendancy for some trains to be called on some tracks (NEC @ 1-4), but it seems rather routine to occasionally have a train called at another track section (10,11,12,13,14)
Hope this helps
BUT, there's somebody who's doing this to the riders .... Is it LIRR station staff, is it how the trains get stacked up comming in from Sunnyside, is it someone in Amtrack, is it that Amtrack/NJT don't have enough tracks so the next train in has to take what ever is available, or is it that NJT mngt just plain doesn't care !
My point is that the LIRR seems to do a much better job of REGULARLY putting the same train on the same track. Case in point ... for 11 years I knew what track the 5:01, 5:27, & 5:45 would be on (different tracks for each), but, if late, I could run to that track & my train would be there. Dashing Dan, that was me on the logo :-)
Mr t__:^)
Did anyone catch the August(I think) Issue of Trains the cover was all NJT and how they have come a long way. Breakdown of each branch (line) as well. Nothing about poor customer service of course.
AND the "Sept/Oct" Mass Transit feature article about the new light rail line, incl. all five (5) phases, plus "future expansion".
Mr t__:^)
Thurston, I think that they don't try to plan any track resource management. And it has more to do with a combinaion of primarily not enough tracks and secondarily an operational behavior of New Jersey Transit and its layup practices that blocks a viable solution.
Amtrak has trains that come in from all over the country.. Chicago, Virginia, the South... These trains often get delayed on the order of hours (especially for the longer routed trains). Because there is no guarantee of service on Amtrak's part, Amtrak can not just say that at 6:34 PM every day.. Our Crescent Star from the Carolinas (I'm guessing train names BTW) will arrive.. reserve Track 13 from 6:30 to 7:40 for that train. They really can't do that because it is common enough for the train to come in anywhere from 6:30 to 9:30. Reserving a track for 3 hours for every train Amtrak uses would need more tracks than exists in all of Penn Station.
A possible solution would be to segregate Amtrak and New Jersey Transit operations. However, Amtrak can't say that Tracks 10-14 are their exclusive domain. That would imply that NJ Transit could never use Tracks 10-14 for passenger service or layups. Now what if service gets routinely backed up and there is a period where Amtrak may need more tracks.. well Amtrak in theory could still share NJ Transit's space. But they really wouldn't be able to, because NJ Transit and it's notorious lay up practices tend to leave only two or three open tracks (if that many) for their operations. If Amtrak uses those, NJ Transit would come to a screeching halt. Granted it might be NJ Transit's fault for layups but there aren't too many open tracks to cut through to Sunnyside and very little yard space in the station itself.
In summary, it comes to resource allocation. Amtrak and NJ Transit share a resource (track space) whereas LIRR for the most part has exclusive access to its resource. Now since Amtrak can effectively grab a resource at an unpredictable rate, it makes it difficult to make resource reservations (A la Operating System theory) to gurantee the exclusive availability of any one resource at any one time without resource blocking. So effectively your track selection algorithm would need to be very dynamic in nature, translation your train can leave from Track 4 one day and Track 11 the next.
As a solution, we can attempt to separate the resource pool into NJ Transit and Amtrak domains, but we run into permanent resource allocation problems. Given also the artificial requirement (it is unlikely that NJ Transit would change this practice) for NJ Transit to lay up trains, there may not be enough resources and a deadlock may occur if NJ Transit is confined to lets say 8 or 9 tracks.
That was a very thoughtful reply, I'm sure we all appreciate it !
I'll only make one point & ask one follow up question:
- Layup, this may relate to a labor problem. At the LIRR the engineers & conductors are at Penn, plus they have a large layup YARD just outside Penn. So the time & cost to move & staff their trains is rather small. If NJT had to layup all incomming train sets at Sunnyside: First we have the time factor; second there's a problem with enough slots on the in/out tracks to support such movements; third we'ld need extra staff to move the trains; and fourth when a Amtrak train does arrive it sits on a track for a long time, at LIRR 10 or 15 min. is all you get before the next train is ready to arrive (sometimes it's as little as 5 min, i.e. the train is called 10 min before departure, but is late off the road, so it's in the station just long enough to board & leave).
- Attitude, none of your remarks seem to address the generally bad attitude of the NJT employees. I've generally found the LIRR, TA & "private" operators to have a GOOD attitude. If you like to ride at the front window, like me, most of the engineers are eager to tell you their life story & if you have a little kid with you (you know the drill ... "what's that bell ringing" .... "What's that lever do" ... "why are we stopped").
Mr t__:^)
Hi again Thurston.. thanks for the compliment! =)
I recognize that the NJ Transit layup issue is worthy of some debate among some people. I have read articles on the net that bash NJ Transit as wasting space in Penn Station, but they do not point out the limited resources (especially concerning access to Sunnyside) that you pointed out. I think your comments support the reasoning in my previous post (hey I may be on to something =) !)
I admit that I didn't address attitudes in my analysis, but I viewed them as irrelevant considering that I purport it is a resource allocation problem and has very little to do with employee attitudes. But since the issue is now at hand, I'll reiterate that I did have a problem with the conductor that forced us to miss a train because of our last ticket was taking forever to print.
Let me expand that annecdote to include that one of my friends in his infinite wisdom decided to block a door from closing and stood half on and half off the train. The conductor yelled at him to get on or off or he would call the police. I felt the conductor was within his rights to prevent what my friend was doing, but he did seem to display unnecessary hostility in the situation. In explaining our situation the conductor said, and I quote "We don't wait for no tickets!". Surely enough, the doors close as the last ticket pops out from the Vending machine.
One experience I had relates to a horrible stench that permeated throughout our entire crowded car. We couldn't tell if it was a person (we had a bunch of very unusual people in the car) or if it was the bathroom, but the conductors didn't seem to care to do anything to remedy the situation, such as leaving a door open to air out the car.
I've seen conductors routinely ignore people with boom boxes, but then again the way some of those people talk and gave threatening stares I would not want to confront them either. I have seen conductors try to wake sleeping passengers who take entire seats, but do not make an extra effort (nor should they have to) to ensure that the passenger disembarks. Case in point: 7/23/98 2:00 AM on the last Coast Train.. some guy was sleeping as the train pulled into his station (Woodbridge). After it became obvious he was not going to awaken on his own and the train was at the platform for 15 seconds I woke the guy up so that he wouldn't be stuck somewhere.
I'd like to add some positive feedback too, because I think there are some NJ Transit employees who do make the extra effort. Case in point: while borading a NEC train in Penn Station New York, a women got separated from her cousin and was very worried if he was on the train or not. The conductor made an annoucement on the train so that the women could find her travelmate.
My experiences have been relatively neutral on NJ Transit. But my experiences are related to mostly non-peak travel (late afternoon to NYC and late night back) mostly on the Northeast Corridor to/from New Brunswick. There have been some cases where the attitudes have been negative, but for the most part I'd consider the staff to be apathetic. I have a suspicion that attitudes on NEC might not be as warm as on other lines given that I have nothing to really complain about whenever I have taken a Coast Line train.
Every Friday Night and Saturday Night the 11:40(11:44) and 12:40 am trains are zoo trains. The passengers are animals and the crew dare not challenge them for fear of assault. Last Sat. night someone threw up all over their triple seat and the car emptied fast! the crew did not call to have the person removed and did not do anything. I suggested that NJT transit police ride these trains and was told that "they used to".
Another time, a fight broke out. I found a crew member outside and it took *3* to break up the fight--they were not removed from the train!
NJT simply doesnt care. I ride at least 5 days a week--if I had a choice they'd lose me as a rider, but unfortunately I have no choice.
I'd e-mail them but they dont care. the last e-mail i sent with regards to no parking lot lights at my station was answered with "we'll look into the situation" and today, 8 months later still no lights!
It's a little late this year, but in two years why not see if one of the local politicians wants to make an issue of it. If they can blame the bad service on the Gov. or their opponent somehow they might use it. We buffs can give them the bullets for the gun.
Yes, you & I work for the system, but I'm not afraid of someone talking bad about us.
Let them throw rocks, if they're right then somebody should fix it, if it cost money, let somebody find it, if there should be more service, then buy more buses & trains.
Disclaimer: Opinions expressed here R my own.
Mr t__:^)
I almost hate to say it, but maybe the fares should go up, if for no other reason than to discourage the miscreant riders and provide a better level of service to those who want transportation without aggravation. NJT keeps touting that the fares haven't gone up in eight years (or whatever) - maybe it's time. The higher fares could go to increased security.
I don't ride NJT all that frequently, but it's been frequent enough over the course of the last 12 years that the downward spiral is quite noticeable. My trip on 9/27 may very well have been my last on the NEC trains.
Here's one,
Why was there no stop built at Avenue D on the 'L' in Manhattan?
Was is because of foresight that it wouldn't be a very heavily used station or it's coming off the decline into it's East River tunnel or they just didn't feel like building one?
Also, is that the same case with no station at Water Street on the J/M/Z? It's not a year away from Whitehall St. but close enough for a free transfer just before the Montague tunnel and since the pit tracks end there(with a switch) express service terminates at Water Street while the local('M' at rush hours) continues to Brooklyn.
Some hypothetical ponderances from a guy with too much free time.
[Why was there no stop built at Avenue D on the 'L' in Manhattan?
Was is because of foresight that it wouldn't be a very heavily used station or it's coming off the decline into it's East River
tunnel or they just didn't feel like building one?]
My guess is that the tunnel depth was the reason. Any Avenue D station probably would have to be elevator-served, like those on the A or 1 in upper Manhattan - and I don't believe the BRT/BMT built any stations of that type.
Speaking of tunnels, I was thinking that it seems strange that an entire section of tunnel is only used during weekday rush hours(Nassau St. subway south of Chambers St.) or at one other time(middays?).
Are there other places in NYC where entire sections of tunnel(not tracks) aren't in use until a certain time of the day/week?
One I am curious about is the express tracks to 179 St/Jamaica.
Well on the Brighton Line, the express tracks for the Q are only used M-F 6:10am to 9:30ish. Though last night at 9:30 there was two deadhead moves of Q trains south on the local tracks 57th to West 4th.
You also have the 7 Express track midday or weekends.
Or how about positioning moves on the Culver line when the G runs from the yard to Smith and Ninth on the express tracks the whole way? (Saw two of those yesterday morning at 9am)
If deadheading is the issue, you often see F line trains running express against the rush hour in Brooklyn to meet the greater demand in Queens. They'll run express to Coney Island in the morning, and to Manhattan in the afternoon, to get back to pick up Queens riders.
J trains run to Broad St. during weekdays at all times. They terminate at Chambers St. only on weekends.
The express tracks to 179th St. beyond Van Wyck Blvd. are most likely used for storage at least part of the time, since F trains now make all local stops beyond Continental Ave. at all times.
If you're referring to tunnels not being used, don't forget the connection from Houston St. to Delancey St. where the KK used to run.
Could someone tell me how much an unlimited Metrocard costs and just what _exactly_you can do with it.
Also, could someone explain to me the track layout of Penn(as in coming from New Jersey). When I go to New York I always have to look out at the tracks from the vestibule( I live in Jersey City) and sometimes see LIRR M-1's on a track far away. Just how much underground space does Penn have?
Finally, how deep underground are the 8th and 7th Avenue subways at Penn?
1. Penn station = 21 tracks, LIRR uses 13 thru 21, Amtrack & NJT use rest, though some of the low numbers are disused. Going West LIRR has storage tracks where they lay up AM trains until needed in PM. NJT & Amtrack use the Sunnyside Yard in Queens for that purpose.
2. Unlimited Express MetroCard cost $120.00. They're good on any subway or bus in NYC. They are of most value to regular Express bus riders who also use a subway or local bus. You can buy them at Subway stations for cash, or over the phone with a check or credit card from one of the several "private" bus companies.
The other unlimited MC is $63 "local", but can't be used on Express buses.
NOTES: Both of these are ONLY good for 30 consecutive days once you start using them. Only one person, at a time, can use the cards, and there's a 18 min "black out", i.e. you can't get back on a bus/subway within the 18 minutes. Click on my name to send me a private E-mail & I'll be happy to provide additional information.
There is also a "weekly" card & soon a "day" card.
Another way to go is the "value" MC. You get a year or so to use up the money & buy them for as little as $3.00. At $15.00 you start getting the "bonus" money/rides ... 15 = one, 20 = 2, 30 = 3, etc. These are more widely available at Newsstands, etc. The "privates" sell the $30 (33) version only.
NOTE: The "value" card works just fine on the subway, express or local bus, AND it has two additional features:
a. Up to four folks can use the card at one time, i.e. family
b. You get one free Transfer to another bus or subway, if four of you board, then four free Transfers.
Mr t__:^)
[2. Unlimited Express MetroCard cost $120.00. They're good on any subway or bus in NYC. They are of most value to regular Express bus riders who also use a subway or local bus. You can buy them at Subway stations for cash, or over the phone with a check or credit card from one of the several "private" bus companies.
The other unlimited MC is $63 "local", but can't be used on Express buses.
...
There is also a "weekly" card & soon a "day" card. ]
The weekly card I believe is $17.
[1. Penn station = 21 tracks, LIRR uses 13 thru 21, Amtrack & NJT use rest, though some of the low numbers are disused. Going West LIRR has storage tracks where they lay up AM trains until needed in PM. NJT & Amtrack use the Sunnyside Yard in Queens for that purpose.]
NJT trains have used a full array of tracks from 1-14 as per my previous post. I'm uncertain of the LIRR side of the tracks but tracks 13 and 14 are also used by Amtrak and NJ Transit.
You have to remember Penn Station is almost at it's max for number of trains it can handle. Just this past Tuesday (9/22) we came in (Amtrak) on 16 with a Amtrak Clocker going out on 15 and LIRR was annoucing a change to one of the Huntington trains (I think it normaly goes out on 16) to track 20.
I have a book titled New York in the Forties. It has tons of photos from that decade, including some of Penn Station. There is a caption under one of the photos which points out that the tracks at Penn reached their zenith of operation during the 40s when a train arrived or departed every 46 seconds! It also mentioned there were 27 tracks - perhaps at that time.
As for depth of the subway lines, I believe both the 7th and 8th Ave. lines are directly below the street and above the tracks going into and out of Penn Station. At 7th Ave., one flight of stairs takes you down to platform level. The express platform is accessed via underpass. Penn Station was already in place and in operation when the 7th Ave line was built back in the teens. Both subway stations were designed on purpose with outside local platforms and an island express platform to discourage transferring from local to express due to anticipated heavy passenger volume from Penn Station.
On a typical day Amtrak will use up to & incl. Track 13. LIRR also typically uses 21 thru 13. I don't recall the LIRR going lower than 13, the reason ... the LIRR waiting room. You would have to go upstairs to the Amtrak waiting room to get to 1 to 12.
Mr t__:^)
Why does the LIRR use tracks 13-21 while Amtrak & NJT use tracks 1 -13 ? It appears to me that the LIRR is far busier with its share of the station. While couldn't the LIRR access a few more tracks ? I know Amtrak owns Penn. I suppose that may be a factor or perhaps access to the East River tunnels, but then again Amtrak & NJT use these as well. What is the reason for this arrangement ?
[Why does the LIRR use tracks 13-21 while Amtrak & NJT use tracks 1 -13 ? It appears to me that the LIRR is far busier with its share of the station. While couldn't the LIRR access a few more tracks ?]
At least part of the reason is based on differences in dwell times. Amtrak trains take much longer to load and unload than do their LIRR counterparts and hence require relatively more platforms.
Also the tunnels to the East are set up to service 21 to 13, i.e. the LIRR uses three in & one out AM, reverse PM. Everytime Amtrak wants to come in it's a problem, i.e. switching it on a track & the time it takes them get clear the tracks at Penn. As I've said here before, many times at night we were sitting in the station (track 13) or on the stub to the East waiting for the Amtrak to clear (the train has to use the inbound track, then cross over the outbound & go to it's assigned track). Meanwhile several other LIRR trains departed on other tracks.
Besides the access problem (from LIRR waiting room), I don't think all the Amtrak/NJT tracks have third rail ... I seem to remember someone else posting this.
Mr t__:^)
P.S. to my other post on this thread:
The North tunnel can only service tracks 21 thru 14. The southern tunnel can service some of those tracks (16 thru 13 ?) & of course all the Amtrak/NJT sets. 20 & 21 are also a problem because the platform is shorter than the typical trains.
Mr t__:^)
[Finally, how deep underground are the 8th and 7th Avenue subways at Penn?]
Not very. They're basically just below street level, and in fact are higher than the LIRR concourse at Penn Station (and *well* above RR track level).
Peter, Since we're on the subject, I'll bet you know ...
The IND lowest level at 42nd, I think it's a single track, and was last used for the race track & plane-2-train specials. How close are the #7 tracks. You can see that they continue past 42nd St & before someone said that the #7 would have to "duck under" to go toward the Hudson river. I would even venture a guess that there might even be some sort of maint. door so TA staff could walk from the #7 to IND system. The underground walkway between 7th & 8th is further circumstantial evidence, isn't it over the #7 stub tracks ? Why do I care ... if the #7 is almost a 8th, it would seem to be a inexpensive job to finish the cut & turn it on 8th ... would also have to expand the one to two or three tracks. Tieing it into the IND would be another question, with too many considerations to think about right now.
Mr t__:^)
From what I've heard, the 7 runs right up to the wall of the 42nd Street IND lower level. I don't know if there's any door between the lines allowing maintenance access. Any westward expansion of the 7 would have to go right through the lower level, no big deal as it's almost certainly shut down permanently. But underground fuel tanks at the Port Authority Bus Terminal might be a bigger (more accurately, more expensive) obstacle to extending the 7.
Peter, I am again impressed with your knowledge, thanks for sharing!
You may be right about the PATH tanks (I don't have any independent knowledge), but it seems to be such a logical & cheep extention for the #7 ... so there has to be some reason why the TA isn't planning it.
Mr t__:^)
One qualification: the lower level at 42nd St. was used by Aqueduct Specials, but NOT by the JFK Express. The JFK Express began at 57th St.-6th Ave., then switched over to the 8th Ave. line south of W. 4th St. It was extended briefly to 21st-Queensbridge when the 63rd St. tunnel opened in 1989, but was discontinued on Easter Sunday, April 15, 1990.
The northern end of the lower level was used as an underpass between the downtown and uptown platforms at 42nd St. before the entire mezzanine was incorporated into the paid fare zone. I remember using that underpass on one or two occasions in 1967-68 and got the creeps down there!
P. S. I'm the one who said the 7 would have to dive beneath the lower level in order to continue past Times Square.
Steve, thanks for the correction.
Intersting sidebar: My wife has a dear friend who took the JFK Express every day to work at Con Ed. She lives in Howard Beach & paid the extra fare for the comfort & speed (sometimes) of the ride.
Can you say Express Bus ? :-o
P.S. I have a habit of NOT quoting what someone said because I wouldn't want to do anything to discourage that persons interest in contributing here, even our NIMBY friends.
Mr t__:^)
Hey, anytime. BTW, I do have more than one CTA surface token and will get it on its way to you shortly. I'll swap it for one of your duplicate Boston tokens.
BTW, I usually don't quote what other people say, either.
[Peter, I am again impressed with your knowledge, thanks for sharing!
You may be right about the PATH tanks (I don't have any independent knowledge), but it seems to be such a logical & cheep extention for the #7 ... so there has to be some reason why the TA isn't planning it.]
Glad to be of help, as always. Now as far the the "logical and cheep" part is concerned, it seems to be common NY practice to do things that are *illogical* and *expensive* ...
1-what is the typical depth of a subway tunnel(is it universal or varies from city to city)?
2-nj transit running to penn station? This may sound dumb, but what is that, a commuter line? from where?
[1-what is the typical depth of a subway tunnel(is it universal or varies from city to city)?]
Most of the NY subway tunnels were built by the "cut and cover" method and are just below street level. There are exceptions, but that's the general rule. The Washington Metro (a far more recent system) is a different example; most of its tunnels are at a considerably greater depth.
[2-nj transit running to penn station? This may sound dumb, but what is that, a commuter line? from where?]
NJ Transit is the commuter train operator from New Jersey. It has a number of lines running into Penn Station, as well as some that go to Hoboken and a Philadelphia-Atlantic City line. It also runs commuter buses and the Newark city subway.
If the Post Office (farley Building)were turned into a new Penn Station would that add tracks or just platforms. I go through the area frequently and see what appear to be tracks, with Caternary wires above South of Track 1 behind some kind of wall, could these be used if Farley become a new Penn?
[If the Post Office (farley Building)were turned into a new Penn Station would that add tracks or just platforms. I go through the area frequently and see what appear to be tracks, with Caternary wires above South of Track 1 behind some kind of wall, could these be used if Farley become a new Penn?]
As far as I know, those tracks were used for mail shipments, they also might have been used for other purposes back when there was a lot of long distance train travel. They might be usable as Amtrak platforms if the conversion plans go through. But the real problem is the lack of sufficient tracks under the Hudson and East Rivers. Nothing in the Farley plans would address that issue.
Hi Liz ... see you got your lights back ... how was the storm ? Are the Trolleys running again ?
Liz, There's another train line that comes NEAR Penn. It's the PATH and comes from several points in NJ to two locations in Manhattan.
Mr t__:^)
Does anyone know the results of the Manhattan Bridge inspections that required stopping train service over the bridge on some recent weekends?
I lot of confused people waiting at DeKalb or Pacffic for a D/B.
I don't think they would have the results yet but the last time they closed the bridge over the weekend for inspection they never said a word.
On the Riverside (Green line) branch of the T, there is a stop named Woodland. At one time the area surrounding the stop was a golf course. The B&A ran commuter service there prior to the takeover by the T, and built a station in 1886 adjacent to the tracks.
I've seen pictures of the station taken in the late 1950's but since the late 1960's (when I first rode the Riverside T on PCC's) the station was gone, replaced with a simple shelter. Does anyone know when the station was torn down?
The fact that the city has decided to place a police officer on the City Hall loop station shows us one thing. It shows that the city is tightening up loose ends in terms of securtiy risks. I personally like the job that the mayor of this city is doing, but there are those who might not. And in this day of subhuman behavior, maybe the city saw the City Hall loop as a possible point of penatration for the city hall building. For those of you who think that the police officer was there just for the excursion train, I highly doubt it. I do not think this will impact the museums acquistion of the station though
{ The fact that the city has decided to place a police officer on the City Hall loop station shows us ... that the city is tightening up loose ends in terms of securtiy risks....maybe the city saw the City Hall loop as a possible point of penatration for the city hall building.]
Your point is a good one, except what about other abandoned platforms like Worth Street? That platform is in close proximity of not only City Hall, but many municipal offices, both city and state. The only way in to any of these stations, I believe, is by the tunnel itself. All of these stations would make "good" terrorist targets. Actually, if a terrorist group is looking to "take out" civilians. then Times Square or Grand Central would be more likely targets. While I understand no longer allowing passengers to ride the loop for terrorist concerns, I think the placement of a police officer on the platform is a wasteful use of resources. Next thing you know, there'll be undercover officers posing as skells patrolling the tunnels.
--Mark
Isn't there an abandoned passageway/exit from the Chambers St BMT to one of the court buildings on Foley Square? And aren't those alleged terrorists being held right there? Perhaps they have the cop in the wrong station.
As far as I'm concerned, all this terrorism fear is paranoia, plain and simple. Why would anyone want to blow up City Hall? Past targets have almost always been federal. Besides, what really matters is whether there's a bomb out there with your name on it ...
I've seen City Hall from above ground. Forget it. It's Fort Giuliani. I think he's gone WAY overboard with this security. He's become a little bald dictator.
-Hank
"I've seen City Hall from above ground. Forget it. It's Fort Giuliani. I think he's gone WAY overboard with this security. He's become a little bald dictator."
What kind of security does City Hall have? Are there any courts sitting there? I ask because, while there is very light security at Chicago's City/County building, there's pretty tight security at the Daley Center (county civil courthouse) across the street and at the Municipal Office Building (Traffic Court having part of the building) across the river -- you have to have a county or attorney ID or go through metal detectors.
I'm not a big fan of Guiliani, but it seems to me, from this distance, that there are people so anti-Guiliani that he gets heat for things which ANY official, Dem or Rep, liberal or conservative, would have to do in the same position. Just as he shouldn't take credit for the rising of the sun in the morning (which his ego would seem to be big enough for), neither should Guiliani be blamed for the setting of the sun in the evening.
Needless to say, as a low-level bureaucrat I don't go into City Hall very often, but they have a guard and a metal detector. I'm usually walking behind someone important (ie. the Planning Commission Chair and various Directors), so I just get waived though.
Since the embassy bombing, however, temporary three-foot concrete barriers have been placed alone the sidewalks in front of all the buildings in the Civic Center -- to prevent a truck from driving into a building and blowing up, no doubt. You have to shimmy through little gaps to cross the street. There are lots of barriers in front of the federal courthouse -- they won't even let you walk on to the exterior stairs without a pass. Several of the streets are closed, with two or three cops posted to waive traffic away. And, in general, there are cops everywhere.
If City Hall seems like a fortress, you should see the federal buildings. The new one has storefronts facing Broadway but the GSA refuses to rent them -- security.
[What kind of security does City Hall have? Are there any courts sitting there? I ask because, while there is very light security at Chicago's City/County building, there's pretty tight security at the Daley Center (county civil courthouse) across the street and at the Municipal Office Building (Traffic Court having part of the building) across the river -- you have to have a county or attorney ID or go through metal detectors.]
City Hall is surrounded with highway-style concrete barriers to foil suicide truck bombers (Query: Terrorist organizations presumably can recruit a pilot or two, what's to stop a kamikaze attack?) It's a pretty ludicrous sight, not to mention ugly. And there aren't any courtrooms in the building.
But security paranoia has had a long and disreputable history in America. Item: Every state governor has bodyguard protection, usually by state police detachments. Yet there has never been an assassination or even an assassination attempt against a governor in his capacity as such (John Connally was not the intended target, George Wallace was running for President when shot). Come to think of it, more in line with the City Hall discussion, I can't think of any mayors having been assassinated with the exception of George Moscone.
"Yet there has never been an assassination or even an assassination attempt against a governor in his capacity as such (John Connally was not the intended target, George Wallace was running for President when shot). Come to think of it, more in line with the City Hall discussion, I can't think of any mayors having been assassinated with the exception of George Moscone."
Governor Huey "King Fish" Long, Louisiana
Mayor Anton Cermak, Chicago (although some believe the assassin was trying for Cermak and some believe FDR was the target).
And some people (myself included) who believe that Oswald acted alone but who also realize that the evidence shows he liked Kennedy think that Connally was exactly Oswald's target. However, you would still be correct that he was not shot in his capacity as governor. Oswald was sore about his less-than-honorable discharge from the Marines for being a Communist (this is well-documented), and the discharge papers were formally issued in the name of the then-Navy Secretary, John Connally (though in actuality Connally had nothing to do with the decision).
There has been a lot of press coverage about the fact that the transit system getting worse (more crowded, dirtier) due to increasing ridership. I haven't seen it.
My impression is that subways are jammed where there are track capacity issues -- the BMT southern, the east side IRT, the Queens Line -- as a result of major improvements which were not made. And the buses are slower because of increasing traffic overall. The crowding/operating cuts don't seem to have made a difference.
I think people are just assuming that more riders lead to more crowding. But my guess is that a lot of those new bus riders are hopping on and off after a couple of blocks, since its free, instead of walking. And a lot of others are riding off-peak. True, service was cut in the early 1990s, and has not been restored, but I think peaking has diminished -- more immigrants and young people using transit all the time instead of just rush hours. It may also be that more of the scheduled service is actually taking place, vs. the 1980s.
The big surge in ridership and jobs has occured since 1996. How has transit service changes since then where you live?
I'll tell you one thing for example since I am a motorman on the m line,we seem to get called upon more often to be rerouted to 95st on the r line or stillwell ave on the b.I don't understand where the r loses its time.you're only maybe following a g or n train.when i worked the r i would sometimes follow a g to queens plaza but still be on time.sometimes you would follow only an n train but still keep your time.as for the b line it ran lousy when it went to 168st only during the day.now that it goes to 145st and bed park, forget about it.one day last week i saw about 5 b trains in a row operate express between 9av and bay parkway.maybe the b line should run express on the west end to bay parkway.the m could handle the passengers for the local stops for the most part.concerning the b line uptown,some sort of priority has to be given to it in order to maintain any sort of schedule. for ex;maybe running some b trains express to 59st from 145st if a c train is close by.when you have a line following 3 other ones every train will probably be late.
Mike, Great input from a man who knows, thanks for posting !
In Queens our buses are fuller all day long. We're getting some additions to the fleet & are talking to DOT about a few more. The need is real because we have to prove it to the Off of Mngt & Budget. At the TA maybe they do it with mirrors, but not here.
Disclaimer: I don't work for the TA or DOT, & opinions expressed there are my own. Mr t__:^)
Transit service is better on the Staten Island express buses, at least on paper. Many more runs were added to the schedules, but many of those same runs never show up due to equipment shortages. The cynic in me feels that the MTA new it wouldn't be able to operate every run on the new schedules until all of the new MCI coach buses arrive. The MCIs are slowly coming on line and are the best equipment the MTA has ever purchased for express runs. They have soft reclining seats, individual reading lights and a/c vents. The big question is can the MTA properly maintain such first rate equipment.
It's no secret that the Redbirds are an endangered species on the IRT with the upcoming delivery of 1,080 new cars. So this means a similar number of Redbirds going to the great train yard in the sky.
What is the process of scrapping a subway car? Are they striped of useful components before being taken somewhere? Where are they taken for actual scrapping?
--Mark
The question about stripping is interesting. I'd bet a lot of those trucks only date to the mid-1980s. They don't use the same technology as the new trains, but are probably interchangable with the R62 trucks. They were selling traction motors for $50,000 apiece in 1986 when I was at the TA, so they have to be worth something.
I assume your interest is in transit-buff sales. I wonder if someone has thought of that? What would anyone like to buy?
Oh, you know, roll signs, marker lights, that sort of thing.
the traction motors are probably the most valuable resale part of a subway car considering near 1000 feet of copper windings inside each. most cars I'v seen go to Naporano's Iron and Metals in the Ironbound section of Newark N.J. They also cut up the Slamtrak Heritage Coaches as well as some of the Arrow II's. 600 volt equipment such as air compressors generally can't be used in shops such as auto body because
they are not equipped with more than 240 vac; you need 480 three phase rectified to get 600dc. therefore the ta is the only practical user for those. visit Naporanos coach motel where "coaches go in but they don't go out" off of routes 1 & 9. Also Nimco's bus division is another interesting site where Septa RTS IIs are joining the Ta's hall of shame
Perhaps they could remove the traction motors, then send the intact cars to county fair grounds all over the Northeast as exhibits. Perhaps if enough people have an opportunity to sit in a real subway car, they won't be so terrified to come here and ride one.
You know, there ARE parks in them with old airplanes that have become slides or anchors for swings.
Gee ... imagine all the fun the kids could have with a subway car! This one included :)
--Mark
When it comes to scrap, Naporano is definitely No. 1. In addition to Philadelphia RTS buses and NYC Subway cars they also took about 250 Fishbowl buses from Boston a couple of years ago. Boston Subway cars usually go to a local dealer since the lots are usually too small and awkward to truck over that distance.
Usually the procedure here is that an RFP goes out advertising the lot for sale as scrap. Seashore always has an option to take cars for preservation, provided that we make historic equipment available for their use. These are deleted from the bid list. Seashore will sometimes also bid on other cars for use as storage space. Connecticut and Shore Line also can get cars for preservation. Once the cars to be saved intact are segregated, then the shop goes in and takes whatever the (T) wants to save. After this Seashore may ask for certain items of no interest to the junkmen [contactors, relays, pilot motors, air brake equipment, and resistance (both starting and the low current variety) can often be recycled into vintage cars lacking the necessary equipment to make them run.] Again the other museums sometimes seek parts too. Once this is done, a junkyard bid is accepted fob where they sit. The junkman usually cuts the cars up where they are to save trucking costs. (The T usually has a few yard tracks wothout third rail for this purpose.) Again at this stage Seashore may cut a deal with the junkman to get motors or compressors as tax write-offs. The remainder gets shredded, shipped to Japan and comes back as Type 7s, LRVs or Toyotas. :)
The junkmen seldom sell to railfans due to the reputations that some have earned.
An interesting sidelight - when buses are scrapped the tires are usually returned to the (T) which often leases them from a supplier. Even obsolete sizes must be returned to their owner.
Roll signs, market lights, controllers, builder's plates, number boards, etc.
--Mark
I don't know about the subway, but on the LIRR, the process starts about 10 years before they actually scrap the cars, when they stop maintaining them and move the worst ones to the Oyster Bay line.
I wanted to email you something, but your SubTalk email
address comes back as invalid. Please email me webmaster@bera.org
The scrapping process is actually two parallel processes.
The first is the "Strategic Re-allocation of Critical Resourses" also referred to as "Parts Stripping".
The second is actually selling the cars for scrap or whatever.
As for removal of parts, you have to be practical. The trucks on the Redbirds use clasp brakes and would not be compatible with the Tread brake Unit trucks on the R-62s and R-62As. The new cars will have AC propulsion so just how many traction motors do you need. Stripping and storage is expensive. There will be converters, and compressors salvaged because they can be used elsewhere. The HVAC will not be re-usable for the most part. Some Wabco Brake equipment will also be saved. Other than that, not too much else.
One interesting note: I remember after the R-10s were finally sent to their reward, I had to take a crew out to 38th St. yard in Brooklyn to remove some shoe beams because a sudden shortage cropped up. However, when the R-10s went, very little was saved with the exception of some of the collector stuff.
Thanks, Steve. When they'are actually scrapped and removed from NYCT property, what would their expected departure route be? By way of Coney Island and the SBK connection on the West End to 38th St and car floated to NJ? Just curious; this would be the first massive car scrapping (ala the Standards or Lo-Vs) that I am old enough to, er, appreciate.
--Mark
Depending on what is to be done with the cars, I'd say 38th St. will be a pretty safe bet.
Is this service Temp or Perm? I think the B lines should terminate at 205 st, Bronx so both lines can keep follow during rush hours.
It is permanent (til the next change :)). Because of track configuration, there is no place to accomodate all those trains to
205 St. Four-track section ends at Bedford Park Bd. The exit to
(Entrance from) the yard is in between those 2 stations, so the most convenient way is as it is now.
I am a high school student and of course have to carry around textbooks. Today we just got our American History books and the cover of the book is a painting of old downtown Manhattan(circa early 1900's) with a large part of it as two trolleys coming over the Brooklyn Bridge and terminating at a stop on the "off-ramp" of the early bridge. I would assume that that area in the middle of today's Brooklyn Bridge(road level) was where those trolleys ran.
You're right. From the late 1890's until 1944, the Brooklyn Bridge had two three lane roadways where today's vehicles travel - but the split was one vehicular lane, one trolley track, one elevated train track. The latter two tracks terminated at a large terminal at the Manhattan end called Park Row Terminal. Both trolleys and els were Brooklyn Rapid Transit (BRT), later BMT, operations until 1940, when NYC Board of Transportation took over.
In 1944 the el trains stopped running and the large terminal was razed. The trolleys shifted to the former el tracks, and used an outdoor loop terminal on the site of the old Park Row edifice. In 1950, the trolleys stopped running and the bridge was reconfigured (over a three year period) into its present layout. The middle pedestrian walkway has always been where it is.
Before the 1950 rebuilding, the girderwork which now covers all three traffic lanes only extended over the el tracks. The two outer lanes (autos and trolley tracks) had nothing above them.
Isn't it true that the recent Transportation Bill passed in Congress included appropriations for the completion of the Second Avenue Subway? I can't find any information about it on the internet.
Loren
Nope. The bill included money for an LIRR connection to Grand Central Station, and a sharply lower share of funding for New York State otherwise. Thanks, Alphonse.
[Nope. The bill included money for an LIRR connection to Grand Central Station, and a sharply lower share of funding for New York State otherwise.]
And even if there were any $$$ for the Second Avenue subway, it undoubtedly would be for another "study" - and we all know how meaningless they are.
Why use federal money to study the 2nd Ave study, when can (and are) use it to study a rail tunnel and homeport?
Hey, good news! NYC spending on transportation, education and parks, as a share of the income of its residents, is now 25 percent below the national average! And thanks to city and state tax cuts, its taxes are 25 percent above the national average, down from 40 percent higher in FY 94. I guess the fiscal conservatives can now say "we're even" thanks to Pataki and Giuliani. But if this keeps up, we won't be able to afford the studies. This would bother our transportation planning division (the only people who have hired since 1990) no end.
For $1.50, anyone wanting to do another study can simply ride the Lex and see how crowded the trains are.
With all the setbacks over the years, you get the feeling that maybe that line just wasn't meant to be.
Just look at it this way. Instead of building the 2nd Ave Subway, we sent our federal tax dollars to DC to build a subway in Atlanta, light rail in Baltimore, a subway in LA, etc. New Yorkers could have abandoned the city, as planned, and followed their tax dollars to other places, but they decided to stay. So what do they deserve anyway.
P.S., I was told by someone out in Denver that there was hope that if Gary Hart became president, Denver would get a subway. We ended up with Reagan and a subway in LA instead.
Gary Hart's fling with Donna Rice derailed (no pun intended) his chances for the presidency, along the same lines as Ted Kennedy when Mary Jo Kopechnie drowned in 1969.
Anyway, there was talk of a light rail subway beneath 16th St., but that's all it ever was - talk. Serious consideration is being given for a spur line through the Platte River Valley which would serve Elitch Gardens, the Pepsi Center currently under construction, Union Station, and Coors Field, eventually continuing out to the airport. RTD, in spite of internal bickering, has approved backing of an extension out to the Denver Tech Center along I-25. And, last but not least, construction of the southwest extension along Santa Fe Drive is moving right along, on schedule and within budget.
Greetings,,does anyone have an updated listing of all IRT Destination Readings
Thank you
I have various versions of the IRT side signs from Redbirds. Nothing from the R62s. Nothing from the last few years, if indeed there was a new version.
Hey, Charles, did you ever get my email message with my address that you asked for? I still haven't seen those two roll signs we talked about, so let me know. I can forward that information again if needed. Thanks!
BTW, how are you on BMT roller curtains from the R-27/30s or original R-32 curtains?
Steve, today's the day. I have 2 Standard signs plus the original R 1/9 Front route. I've got the address. Keep the faith.
I am less able to help on the others you seek. I sold off one of the orig R27 signs I had & I only have 1 set of the orig. R 32-38 signs
Anywhere I can get a 1970s Mylar R32 front end curtain roll - multicolored (With the MM and the TT) with the white circles around each marker?
I haven't got the heart to ask my Dad to part with his.
E Mail me if you desire.
Thanks,
Wayne
Hi Charles
Would you be able to send me copies of the most recent material you might have
---routing to KHenne3572@Aol.com
Thank you
Steve
Will try. I have to document what is on them and then type up. If I can track down an extra sign it might be easier to just send it.
thank you ,,I am interested in just the readings
Would you be interested in receiving notes from the NYC Transit Committee agenda,,on a monthly basis,,Bus and Subway
Greetings,
If anyone needs a listing of NYC DOT Bus Co reading,,let me know WHICH ROUTE or WHICH Co you need.
Thank you
Greetings,
Can anyone assist me in obtaining detailed Routing Info on the Bus Shuttle runnning across the Bridge..EASTBOUND A N D WESTBOUND
Thank you
STEVE
Finally got to ride the beast today, on the 10:30 run of the x1 to Staten Island. It still has that 'new bus smell'.
Overall, it's pretty much just like any other MCI I've ever seen. Every pair of seats has a panel above it with a pair of reading lamps, a pair of adjustable A/C vents, and a push button for the stop notification. The 'Stop Requested' sign is top dead center on the sign door, just above the display box for the farebox. The door on 1861 was a standard swing, but 1868 has a split door, ala Westchester county's buses. Legroom could be better for most of the seats, and it looks to me as if a large bodied person would have trouble getting past the farebox. The farebox and the stair wall form a narrow passage that most people boarding the bus had to turn sideways to get past. The front destination sign is of the LED-lit 'mega-max' style.
The biggest deficency, in my opinion, is the loss of seats if a wheelchair passenger boards. For the lift to operate, 4 seats need to be folded and rolled forward. For 1 wheelchair passenger, you lose a minimum of 2 seats. With 2 WC passengers, you lose 6 seats. There is one tie-down on the lift, and another tiedown just about directly opposite the lift. Additionally, if there is a 'standing load', passengers who are standing have to get completely off the bus for other passengers to get off.
-Hank
Speaking of stop-request signs, I always loved the ones on the Jersey Cruisers that flash 'STOP REQUEST/WALK ALERTLY' alternately in red lettering on a black sign. I hope that future NJ Transit bus orders retain this type of sign.
BTW - HOW could they possibly fit a farebox in the front of an MCI coach? They are cramped enough as it is. NJ Transit and private companies offer "full service" (in which the operator produces change) on all Jersey Cruiser routes--must be because there is no way people could get past if there was a farebox present. Although it slows down service a bit, the change-producing fare style is great for those running late who only have 5's . . .
You have to sort of squeeze by the farebox, with is a problem for some of our larger Staten Island housewives. That is the only minor design flaw.
What kind of fare box are they using GFI or the ones that take the farecards?
They're using the same farebox and stand that every other TA bus has.
-Hank
Joe, Hank's reply means the TA version, which is 1/2 Cubic & 1/2 GFI, i.e. the lower half is the old Keen/GFI box while the "privates" have a 100% Cubic box. (since the TA still vaccums the coin out they had no reason to change the lower 1/2 of the farebox). Now there'll be a third, since NY Bus Service is replacing there's with one that will take bills again. One or two of the other privates MAY do this too, but not at my company.
Mr t__:^)
That farebox in the threshold area an an MCI would be very tight.
Thank you for your sexist comment. As I mentioned in my post, it is difficult for large-bodied (and even not-so-large bodied passengers to board the bus. It is also difficult when carrying packages, as I was. I neglected to mention the assistance the driver gave me in providing some information, his badge # was sent to the TA and nominated for an 'apple award' He brought up the fact that some DRIVERS could not board the bus, and, for that matter, TWU 726 President Larry Hanley would have difficulty boarding.
-Hank
Hank you lucky son of a gun.
Went "home for the holidays" Tuesday night, X6 and low and behold one of the RTS' with the ORGINAL seat desgin. Even had the bottom of the seats sliding off at every application of the brakes.
At 6'8 the best thing the TA every did was the rebuild of the RTS's and the new Orians, the seat right behind the rear exit door has very very generous leg room!!
This problem (Wheel chair customer taking four seats) maybe (I'm not in a position to know) the reason why NYCDOT chose the Orion CNG coach (has seating arangement simular to the GMC/TMC/Nova, with plush seats (vs. hard), but no reading lamps of O/H racks).
P.S. The 70 new Orions will be used on our Express lines & repl some of the old MCIs.
Mr t__:^)
Mr T,
The MCI Classics are not too old (1989/90) I believe. I would be suprised if they're withdrawn from service already???
Re: MCI Classics of 89/90 ... true, but we're being pushed by their lack of a Wheel Chair lift. NYC-DOT doesn't accept as "policy" that our "regular" Wheel Chair customers can call when they need a ride, as you know there's a new law in effect. It is also true that the old GMC's will be the first to go, i.e. #192 is going back to Liberty this week even though 500 is a couple of weeks away from being ready to enter service.
Mr t__:^)
That's interesting! NYBS and Liberty have a few MCI Classics with w/c lifts and I wonder why hadn't the other privates gotten their MCI Classics with lifts. Does this mean that NYBS and Liberty will have to replace most of their buses with lift equipped buses? Also, since Liberty rec'd two Orion orders (110 total) I didn't realize they were remotely interested in getting the older RTS's back.
RE: GBL and QSC Orion V's. I should have noticed these as being WMATA buses by the extra turn indicators on the rear of the buses. WMATA has gotten their buses this way since about 1993. They have also added them to their older Flxible Metro and Orion V's. I wonder why WMATA didn't retain these buses. My guess is they needed the money??? As I've reported here in the past - WMATA still operate numerous late 1970's new look Grumman Flxible's and GMC (fishbowls). Some of these GM's are the original fishbowl that were built from 1959 -1962 with the squared marker lights. When the new Orions started to arrive last winter I suspected that the GMC fishbowls and possibly the new look Flxibles would be withdrawn from service. I'm happy to see the buses from my childhood still operating....
Wayne
You know, I have yet to see a Liberty Orion. I have seen a NYBS fishbowl, that looks to be in excellent physical shape. As for those extra signals on the nee-WMATA Orions, I don't think they're turn signals, They seem to come on as the bus slows down, maybe they're linked to the accelerator, so when the driver lifts his foot off, they come on, warning someone behind that he's preping to stop.
-Hank
Hank,
The Libery (actually the Bee-Line system) Orions are local buses - to see them you have to go to Westchester county or in the north Bronx. Some of their routes come into the Bronx to Fordham Rd (Routes 60,61 & 62), Pelham Bay (45), White Plains Rd-238th St (24,25 & 42), Bedford Pk Blvd-Jerome Ave (4,20,20X) and 242nd St-Bway (1,1C,1T,2 @ 3).
Re: WMATA Orions. Those high mounted yellow lights on the rear were re-wired by GBL and QSC, because WMATA definitely uses them as an extra pair of turn signals which is a good idea. Since most WMATA routes operate along suburban roads in northern VA and southern MD, it's easier for motorists to spot a Metrobus (with it's lights flashing) that's stop to pickup/discharge passengers.
The lights I believe you're referring to are those on the NYC-DOT privates 1994 RTS which are on either side of the center high mounted stop light. LI bus has been using these "caution" lights for a few years now.
I concur on those additional lights. Here in Tampa, the Gillig Phantoms and refurbished Flxibles/RTS fleets have them as well.
Hank,
The NYBS GM Fishbowls that you saw are from GM of Canada and they are 1981 models. NYBS has 25 of them (1481-1505) and they run during peak hours. I've always liked the GM/Canada fishbows over GM (U.S) fishbowls). The privates in Queens (except Jamaica Buses)used to have GM/Canada fishbowls also. QSC had loads of them and they were extremely fast.
The last few were still here when I arrived 4 years ago. The Pres. had bought them from DOT & kept them in reserve, i.e. when we don't "make service" it hurts the balance sheet a lot. We also used them on charters, i.e. we can't "charter" a DOT owned bus.
They're long gone & he "owns" some old GMC-02s now, of Bridgeport CT vintage. What to charter a birthday party ? Just kidding ;-)
Mr t__:^)
Mr. T,
I do remember some GMC fishbowls that NYBS sent over to QSC, but those were not GM/Canada buses. I think they were numbered in the 13xx series and some may have been from the 147x series. I vaguely remember them operating at QSC, and I don't know if QSC change the numbers or not.
Wayne
Wayne, When I arrived we had about 1/2 dozen Fishbowls #12xx & #13xx.
We also had a few Grumman Flexibles #7xx, but they were O/S waiting for sale.
P.S. I saw a Grumman this AM on my way in, thought LI Bus had gotten rid of them all, guess not.
Mr t__:^)
Mr. T,
Re:NYBS - That does sound right to me. At LI Bus the Grumman 870/Flxible Metros were the backbone for a long time - so I'm not at all suprised that some were retained.
PS - Not to be nitpicky (I'm really not that type of person), but Flxible actually spells it's name without an "e" that would normally be between the "L" and "X".
As always, many thanks for the info.
Wayne
Wayne, Thanks for the correction ! If i'm going to be taken seriously, i'ld better my shit strait ;-)
Mr t__:^)
What were the differences between fishbowls made in Canada compared to
ones made here? Why were American bus companies buying Canadian buses in the first place?
It was very difficult to distinguish GMC Truck & Coach (U.S.) fishbowls from GM of Canada fishbowls. The GM/Canada fishbowls also remained in production until 1986. Soon afterward General Motors sold both divisions. I could tell them apart when I was close enough to see either the fleet number or the red marker light at the rear on either side. On GM/Canada buses this light was actually mounted slightly diagnally. It's easy to see when both buses are near each other. Many U.S. agencies bought GM/Canada fishbowls and GM/Canada Classics (later MCI and now Nova Classics) because they did not want to RTS. A couple of agencies that stayed away from the RTS totally was SMMBL (Santa Monica, CA) and UTA (Salt Lake City). I don't know whey NYC-DOT chose them, but I was glad they did as these were great buses.
Wayne
Re: MCI vs. RTS ... we needed a "coach" for the express customers. The CNG Orion's w/ plush seats is a compromise, also many of our Express customers currently get a RTS as the standard bus.
AND even though the law started pushing us (wheelchair lifts) it seems that we're getting more & more of these customers. I wonder how they were getting to work before ? Mr t__:^)
Probably Dial-a-ride....
-Hank
Re: Wheel Chair Lifts - the law is pushing us all at different speeds, i.e. MCIs
Re: Liberts & old GMC/RTS - NYC-DOT had them "loan" the buses to us, we never intended to keep them. #192 makes six of the 16 that have already gone back, and I'm told there's another that's needing too much maint. so it'll probally go back very soon.
Re: Orion/WMATA - I was told that Orion had 50 "Vs" that a customer cancelled. DOT grabbed them at a good price. I was also told recently that we intend to keep as long as possible. So, unless Green gets realy pushy they'll stay here for a while.
Mr t__:^)
Who decided what color to make the present-day schemes?
How far back did color coding the lines go?
Did the IND start it?
Color coding started when the Chrystie Street connection was opened
on 11/26/67. At that point, each line had its own color:
A - Dark Blue
AA - Fuschia
B - Black
CC - Green
D - Orange
E - Light Blue
EE - Orange (only until 1976)
F - Fuschia
GG - Green
HH - Red
JJ - Orange (only lasted until 7/1/68)
KK (came in 1968) - Dark Blue
LL - Black
M - Light Blue
MJ - Fuschia (never on a train, only until 10/3/69)
N - Gold
NX - Light Blue (only lasted til 68)
QB - Red
QJ - Black
RJ - Red (only until 7/1/68)
RR - Green
SS - various
TT - Dark Blue
1 - Orange
2- Red
3 - Light Blue
4 - Fuschia
5 - Black
6 - Gold
7 - Orange
8 - Light Blue (3d Ave.El)
SS - various.
All SS became Green in 1968.
When QJ became J it stayed black.
When KK became K it stayed blue.
In 1986 they adopted the color configuration they currently have,
and added four new colors (brown, light green, purple, grey).
Black is used for shuttles.
Light Blue was used for the JFK "Train to the Plane"
Wayne
The current colors strarted in 1979 with the diamond jubilee map.
The IND did have colors in its 1930's maps. There's one on display at the museum, but it seems to be all faded. The A is red, and the othere routes seem look like different shseds of green. The "C" express is amlost invisible.
While maps used different colors through the years, usually for distinguishing the IND, BMT, and IRT divisions, subway color codes were officially adopted in 1967. At that time, each route was given a different color, which resulted in a map which resembled multicolored spaghetti. Some colors were used on more than one route, but none of the affected routes operated side by side. In 1979, color codes were simplified. Each Manhattan trunk line was given a distinctive color, and all routes operating along that specific trunk line were grouped together under the same color. For example, all 8th Ave. routes (A, AA, CC, E, and HH) became dark blue. Since many of New York's subway routes diverge at one location and converge with other routes elsewhere, it was, and still is, common to see more than one color on a particular line (the IND Quenns line has four colors).
There appeared on a version of a side route sign a green colored "MM", which I believe was for a 6th Avenue Local. This side sign first appeared in the late 60s.
Also, when the nongeographically correct map was being replaced in the late 70s (We're changing and we want you to know.), one version being considered was keeping the old colors, moving to the geographically accurate map with which we are now familiar, and having all the "lines" appear as red strips. The colored balls for the different routes would apear alongside the lines.
This version may be on display at the museum, but I definitely remember seeing it at a place called the Cityana Gallery, I believe on east 50th, near Madison.
Funny you should mention Cityana Gallery. It was located on East 53rd St. I used to go there whenever I would be in the city during the late 70s; in fact, that's where I picked up my first roll signs (including the infamous destination curtain with Coney Island painted over). There was a map exhibit during the early part of 1978 which I remember going to; most of those maps are now at the Transit Museum. I also have a car strap which I picked up there; all I know is that it's from a postwar car.
When I was young (in the 1950s), most stations still had the 1947 maps posted. These maps had IRT lines in blue, BMT in a dark yellow (almost orange) color, and IND lines in red. Elevated lines (3rd Ave. el in Manhattan and Bronx, Myrtle, Lexington, and Fulton els in Brooklyn) were shown as thin black lines. All stations were shown as open circles, with express stations having a bold (thick line) border, and local stations with a thin line border (think of them as if they were a boldface and normal letter 'O').
In the 1950s, the New York Telephone Co. published maps which looked similar, except that the BMT was more yellow and the IRT was light blue with little black dots (like a gray fill dither). Also interesting on the NYT maps was that prior to 1949, the joint IRT/BMT operation on the Flushing and Astoria lines was shown as alternating bands of IRT and BMT colors, but after 1955, the joint BMT/IND operation on the Queens Blvd. line was shown as two parallel, narrow lines of solid color. The NYT maps used open circles for local stations and circles with dots in the middle for express stations. There was also a black & white version which was published in the Yellow Pages, where the IND was black, the BMT was alternating bands of black and white (I guess yellow, after all, it was the "Yellow Pages" printed on yellow paper), and the IRT was a dithered gray. The Astoria and Flushing lines prior to 1949 were shown as alternating bands of black and gray.
Some intresting stuff about the 1947 station maps -- most of them survived until about 1960 when they were repleaced by newer ones. They also showed some non- or not-yet existant lines, for example, they showed the Court/Schermerhorn shuttle, which no longer operated, and the IND Queens line extending to 179th St. Also the IND Fulton St line to Euclid Ave. Most interesting was that the Culver line was shown as IND from Ditmas Ave. to Coney Island. I recall seeing one once with a sticker with notes explaining some of these lines, and these lines had red stars by them referring to these notes. The notes were on a paper sticker, and were long since gone from most of the maps.
Those maps you speak of are very similar to the Hagstrom's maps of that era which I have. These are the ones which were displayed in the cars themselves, I believe. There were three maps, one for each division, and while they all showed the same routes and had the same division color codes you described, the specific division on each map was much bolder then the other two. (The Transit Museum has these maps in its map exhibit; under the title "same yet different", or something like that.)
My maps show the Astoria line in yellow (BMT), and the Flushing line in blue (IRT); however, both the IRT and BMT maps list both routes. The Culver line is shown in yellow, with a broken red line from Church Ave. to Ditmas Ave indicating the IND connection was imminent. Oddly enough, the BMT map does not even list the Culver line in its route descriptions. 179th St.-Jamaica is shown, even though it didn't open until 1950; so is Court St, even though it was closed in 1946. Even the Lexington Ave. el in Brooklyn is shown.
These are probably before my time, however I do remember well the
Red (IND), Black (IRT) and Green (BMT) maps which started in 1959 I
think and lasted until 1977. The only thing I didn't like about
them was that they were geographically incorrect. The Hagstrom maps
which appear in the backs of the atlases show all the curves in the
system correctly. The current map needs to have the "L" line curves
realigned so they are the proper angles. They should be able to do
this. (in several places from Bedford to Wilson). The 1972 map was
even worse - they had curves in places where they didn't exist -
like the #1 line up around 168th Street.
Also - the Hagstrom Map (at least the one I have, circa 1989) still
differentiates between East Side IRT (open) and West Side IRT (solid)
lines- and the #2 and #5 lines in the Bronx are still backwards!
Gone is the little "sawtooth" marks along the Flushing line too.
They have a few other errors as well (the way they have the Archer
Avenue line portrayed is all wrong)
Wayne
OOPS! That date in the last post should read 1967 NOT 1977!
SORRY!
Thanks to Dave's support, most SubTalkers already know
about this. Here is the official announcement:
The Shore Line Trolley Museum (East Haven, CT) is proud to
present its annual New York Days program on October 10 & 11, 1998.
The story of the streetcar begins in New York City, and The Shore
Line Trolley Museum holds the largest private collection of New York-area
electric railway vehicles, ranging from single-truck streetcars to
67-foot long subway cars. A large number of these cars will be operating
and/or on display during this event.
The museum's scenic line, which is the oldest continuously operating
country trolley line and a National Historic Site, provides the
perfect backdrop for both amateur and professional photographers.
Your ticket ($5 for adults, $4 seniors, $2 children under 12) is
good for all trips all day long. Group rates are available when
booked in advance for groups of 10 or more and for special needs groups.
The museum is located in East Haven CT, approx. 3 minutes from I-95
exit 51 (northbound) or exit 52 (southbound). The museum grounds open
at 10:00AM. The first car departs at 10:30AM, the last car at 4:30PM.
For more information, call (203) 467-6927, or visit the web site at
http://www.bera.org/specev-nyd.html
A more detailed list of planned equipment follows:
The following cars are scheduled to be operated:
Union Ry. (Westchester) single-truck streetcar #316, built 1896.
Brooklyn convertible streetcar #4573, built 1906.
Brooklyn PCC streetcar #1001, built 1936 (first production PCC).
Third Avenue Ry. (Manhattan/Bronx) streetcar #629, built 1939.
Brooklyn Rapid Transit "BU" elevated car #1227, built 1903.
Interboro Rapid Transit Hi-V Deckroof subway car #3662, built 1907.
Interboro Rapid Transit Lo-V subway car #5466, built 1924.
IND R-9 subway car #1689, built 1940.
NYC Transit Authority R-17 subway car, built 1955.
The following cars are scheduled to be on display:
Third Avenue Ry. single-truck streetcar #220, built 1892.
Brooklyn Rapid Transit/Nassau Elec. Ry. single-truck plow #10, built 1898.
Brooklyn Rapid Transit single-truck streetcar #1792, built 1899.
Interboro Rapid Transit supply car #53, built 1906.
Interboro Rapid Transit refuse collection car #95, built 1914.
BMT "standard" subway car #2775, built 1922.
Staten Island Rapid Transit car #388, built 1924.
Hudson & Manhattan class J subway car #503, built 1928.
Equipment is subject to availability and weather conditions.
Jeff, You seem to know a lot about the Shore Line Museum. Can you tell me how many PCC they have. #1011 must have been in another barn on Labor Day as I didn't see it then. I only saw a PCC Dallas Car around back with some kid dammage. What about the Trackless Tolleys, they've had one or so for a while ... any plans to fixing them up. Seems to me someone said there were plans (desires) to run O/H out past the cemetary so the Tranckless would have some place to run. That would seem to be a great idea, i.e. run O/H & track around that little park. Is the problem: cost, NIMBY, or the town ?
P.S. I printed out a copy of the roster you posted, it will make a great check list.
Mr t__:^)
Shore Line's "Dallas Car" double-ended PCC #3323 (originally owned by Dallas Ry. an numbered 605, later owned by MBTA) was traded
to, umm, forgive me, the name of the museum continues to escape
me. I'll have to look it up. They are in Pennsylvania. We got
a Brill Master Unit (Philly Suburban #84) in return. This trade happened in 1991.
The only true PCC Shore Line has is Brooklyn #1001, the first
production PCC. We also have a pair of Philly Red Arrow PCC-like
cars, #18 and 21. Perhaps you saw one of them.
We have two trackless trolleys in our collection. T.T. require
two overhead wires, since they obviously can't use the rails
for current return. They are not really compatible with our
current overhead system. A lot of modifications would have to
be made to cut in the second wire.
It would be nice to run overhead up the block
and around the EastHaven green, but a large number of regulatory
and liability issues crop up. There are currently no active plans
to do this. That doesn't mean it won't ever happen, but it isn't
presently planned.
Jeff two follow ups if you don't mind:
Re: PCC 3323 "traded in '91" is that the same car that I saw outback this past Labor Day. I thought I saw SEPTA vs. MBTA on the side. Except for some broken windows it looked intact.
Re: Trackless Tolleys ... is it possible to put some steel wheels under it so you could run it on you tracks ? It seems such a shame to have it sitting there rotting away. Also, to me, the varity of the equipment at the Shore Line is what keeps bringing me back, i.e. Labor Day I had my first ride on your "summer" car, it was a treat and the previous time I rode a car that had just came out of the shop.
Mr t__:^)
No no. The Dallas PCC was traded away in 1991. It's gone.
You can visit it somewhere in Pennsylvania. From the description
of the car "around back" that you saw, it was Philly Red Arrow
PCC #21. It is more or less intact, but not operable.
Yeah, we could put steel wheels on a trolleybus. We could
also put rubber tires and a diesel engine on a trolley car.
But as a museum, we have a responsibility to interpret our
artifacts in a reasonable manner. A trackless trolley that
runs on tracks?
Jeff, Thanks for the update. I hope you don't mind if I follow up one more time. It seems I'm in need of a little education.
Our friend from Boston lead me to believe that double ended PCCs were called "Dallas Cars", i.e. where they were first used. Apparently not all double ended PCCs are the same. Yours reminds me of the one car set I used to ride in Boston to Northeastern Univ. Is Branford's SEPTA/Philly #21 called something else ? And how would one know the difference ?
Mr t__:^)
The double ended Dallas PCC car #3323 was traded to the Middletown and Hummelstown Railroad (the Milk & Honey Line) located in Middletown,PA.
The trade took place in April 1992. We received Philly Suburban #84 (Brill Master Unit). I was nursing a broken ankle at the time and all I could do was video tape the delivery of #84 and the departure of #3323.
Suggestion: Why don't we have a contest ... who can ride the most of the trains on Jeff's list ?
Now you'll have to bring you wife/girl or boy friend to take photos of you standing/sitting on each car (in case or a tie). Bring a picnic lunch & make it a family thing & sent you companion downtown when they get bored so they send some of you money.
Also we'll have to come up with some sort of prize ????
- Conductor for a hour, you get to ring the bell & everything
- Guided tour of a TA/private depot or subway yard
- All expenses paid trip to Jamaica or Nassau, i.e. a MetroCard
- Mechanic for a day, service one of the trollies (paint, etc.)
- You won't have to bob for apples or cut up a punkin this year
- Special prize for the most folks in you group
Come on guys/gails lets here your suggestions
Mr t__:^)
Any way to get to this Museum without a car?
I would love to go, but don't have rubber wheels...
It's just North of New Haven & just South of the Amtrak Shore Line, though there's no stop at Branford. I'm sure there's a city bus that would get you there ... lets hope one of the Branford folks who log onto this site can give you the specifics. Their flyer has a map, but no bus info on it (203-467-6927). I also have the number of someone at CTtransit in Hartford, but lets wait & see who else posts.
Mr t__:^)
Yeah, I've been waiting for one of the members who comes up
by public transit regularly to give me a public transit directions
page for the web site. Here's the Readers Digest version.
Get yourself to New Haven Union Station. Both MetroNorth and
Amtrak have regular service into there. Take the "F" bus
(East Haven/Frontage Road) and tell the driver you want to
go to the East Haven Green. It's about a 15 minute ride.
Then the museum is a short 2 or 3 blocks from the green.
It's really not a bad trip via public transit. I'll try to
get the more graphic description on the web site soon.
Directions to the Shore Line Trolley Museum from Union Station New Haven, CT. Exit station and proceed to bus stop directly in front of station. There are two bus routes that stop here. The "A" or the "J". Take either one to the center of New Haven. Ask the driver for directions to the "F" bus stop. Get a free transfer when you pay your fare ($1.00). The A and The J stop at Church and Center Sts. (Dunkin Donuts on corner). Exit bus and walk one block up Church St. to Chapel St. Turn right on Chapel and the "F" Bus stop is about midblock. Look for the signs on the bus waiting shelters on Chapel St. CT Transit combines the F route with the G route on Sundays, so the ride may be a bit longer to East Haven. Be sure to ask the driver for the time of the last bus leaving East Haven. It is some time around 5 PM. I will check with CT Transit some time in the next few days for times. If you want to take a taxi the fare is approx. $10.00 + tip.
$10.00 from the MetroNorth station for a taxi??
I think I'll go that way... Trying to get off from work one of those days!
Thanks for the info, now I assume MetroNorth is cheaper than Amtrak going to their sites..