Guees what? One of the cars in the shuttle sequence is now at the Transit Museum! It's R-17 #6609, which at that time was decked out in silver and blue. Next time you're at the museum checking it out, envision the cat-and-mouse game which Gene Hackman and Fernando Rey played out - it happened in that very car.
As planned TWU 234 went on strike around Noon today. Won't rush hour be fun now?
Oh here's more good news
My son, Kevin, told me just now that final exams are being postponed or even cancelled in some Philly public schools because of the number of high school students who will be unable to get to school because of the strike.
Being absent from school because of the strike is an excused absence.
For those of you in fear, there still is some VERY limited service on city routes. The El, subway and SS trolleys will be run by non-union managers.
SEPTA has been advocating using regional rail as a substitute since this thing started in January(which I also gave comments on even then).
It's good for most city dwellers but for those in the 19145-19149 zip codes(i.e.-South Philly) you're out of luck.
Ain't life grand. Do I hear a teacher strike in the wings? That's all I need.
Just a minor note - 19145 thru 48 are the four zip codes in South Phila (I know - from whence I come). While there is no commuter rail service there, much of it is within walking distance of Center City (I know also).
19149 is in the lower Northeast.
Also, zip codes can be deceiving. While I live in 19128, a zone served by the Norristown train (er, sorry, R6), the line runs along the westernmost edge of the zone. On the other hand, I live on the eastern fringe of the zone, over a mile from the closest stop as the crow flies, a little more as the human walks, and not accounting for the steep upgrade on the homebound trip.
I just got a copy of the PTC newsletter(availible from 69th St. Terminal) that spoke of the new Girard Avenue Light Rail line(aka-the 15). This line will use your usual articulated LRV and SEPTA plans to get new trolleys to replace the Kawasaki LRV's from '81.
A Cross-County Metro(I forget for which areas) will be constructed also.
I'm going to go to 69th today and put a big sign on the front doors exclaming "Building for sale" and see if the transit workers come back:)
A couple of clarifications.
SEPTA has planned to use the K-cars on the rehabbed 15. As part of the 15 project (a/k/a Girard Avenue Light Rail Project), up to 16 new low-floor articulated LRV's will be purchased, presumably for the busy Route 13. Since the K-cars are stretched to the limit by current schedules, this will allow enough K-cars to be freed to serve 15. Thus, there is no wholesale replacement of the K-car fleet planned. SEPTA's capital budget has an item to rehab the K-car fleet, which believe it or not is closing in on 20 years of age.
The Cross-County Metro is a study of different modes which will use the former Pennsy Trenton Cutoff, a former freight line which more or less parallels the Penna Turnpike on the northern fringes of Phila. The line goes generally from Paoli to Morrisville and connects with all the commuter rail lines coming out of the City, including the Norristown High Speed Line. The study will examine different modes - buses, light rail, commuter rail (both electric and diesel), and a NHSL type of operation. A spur into the King of Prussia complex (just to the north of the line) is also being considered but is already believed to be too expensive.
Does anyone out there who is familiar with 69th Street Terminal in Philadelphia know the track layout for the el?
Layout for the El? Sure.
There are three tracks that feed into the terminal. Track 1 is for trains coming in, Tracks 2 and 3 are for departures(both tracks merge a little east of the station).
Track 1 going west diverges with a track heading to the yard. But it also turns sharply north and loops over a short bridge and heads to Tracks 2 and 3(Track 2 can be fed from a train going towards the yard from Track 1).
This is how I was able to ride the same train of M-4's 4 times on Friday with more than a minute's wait at either terminal.
Frankford is a little itchy, however.
And to be absolutely technical, 69th St. is in Upper Darby and not Philly, but the terminal is a ten minute walk from the city line.
Also, to add to this, Track 1 has a side platform where all patrons are supposed to leave the train. If you don't, you risk going to the yards if the train doesn't loop and return to the eastbound side. Tracks 2 and 3 share an island platform. During most hours of operation, a train occupies each of the eastbound tracks, and one leaves just after the other pulls in.
Can't you be arrested for staying on the train through the yard?
I suppose you can, especially if you get trapped in a train that's going to the yards. All passengers are supposed to exit westbounds at 69th St but I've seen some sneak back on. Usually it's joyriding kids who don't want to have to pay another fare, since this is what will happen if they exit the platform to return to the eastbound train.
Which brings up a little known fact - you could conceivably cheat and walk down the exit stairs from the terminal to the westbound platform, then board a train and ride around the loop (you hope) all for free. There are no barriers in this direction, oddly enough - no rototurnstiles or anything - so it's entirely free. Of course, you violate the law since the signs advise you not to enter these stairs. I've seen this happen - people who wait close to the stair entrances (not easily seen by the train crew), then rush the unloading train to blend into the crowd and enter the train. I wouldn't advise it.
The terminal of the Yellow Line (Skokie Swift) in Chicago is like that: There are turnstiles and such on the inbound (loading) platform but no controls on the outbound (unloading) platform except for "DO NOT ENTER" signs on the stairs to the platform.
Nobody tries to take advantage of this, though:
1) The outbound platform is *very* exposed to the parking lot, and anyone trying to get on the platform would be seen.
2) The trains are only one married pair, OPTO, and the operator gets out of the one cab and walks to the other end of the train to the other cab when (s)he's in the Y track turning around. So nobody could hide on the train.
OK, so every day while I'm waiting for my A train, I see those
groups of 3 orange-painted bulbs over the platform. They're in a
straight row and a couple of these fixtures exist. Does anyone
know about these?
And while I'm on this silly subject, does anyone know why the
bulbs in the tunnels are colored blue?
Those orange lights are called holding lights. They are used by the tower to hold a train in a station. When they are lit, the conductor must wait for them to go out before (s)he may close the doors. They are aso used at terminal stations in reverse -- that is, once the lights come on, the conductor may close the doors. I heard somewhere that fixtures of three (green?) lightbulbs are being installed at some terminal stations to reduce confusion associated with the dual-use of holding lights. Anyone have more details?
I think the blue lights signify locations of emergency exits or fire extinguishers or something like that, but I'm not certain. I'm sure the next person to post will remember!
The blue bulbs are used to mark the locations of emergency power boxes, as well as telephones. Back in the good old days, there were no 2-way radios. If a motorman encountered a problem, he had to climb down from his train, walk to the nearest phone, and call the Command Center. Supposedly, the telephones are still there. There is an exchange in Pelham 1-2-3 (the original) which touches on this subject:
Marino: Geez, Caz, why doesn't he answer his radio?
Dolowicz: Take it easy, will you? Maybe his radio's busted and the sonofabitch is too lazy to climb down and use a telephone. I'm gonna write him up for this, goddammit, I'm gonna have his ass.
The phones and power boxes are still there. They are still active and can be used to kill power in emergency. If power is cut the phone will ring. You must answer or the juice restored. Emergency exits are illuminated by sodium vapor lights (in progress). In addition, some booths also have disconnect boxes to allow the station agent to kill power. Here too, if we kill power we must call the subway control center as well as station command.
The three green light fixtures are starting lights. Along with a bell (ding) they are used for trains to leave the terminal.
I was just recently asking a motorman if he thought the new compact flourescents (The TA has opted for these over the mercury vapors, and have even replaced mercury fixtures installed between DeKalb an Halsey on the L, and standard flourescent tubes in the 6oth St tunnel) What he did tell me is that he blue bulbs are way too bright, and drown out the signals. I looked and they really are pretty brilliant, while the signals, sometimes right next to them, are nearly invisible. (Th mercury vapor fixtures had a regular white bulb covered with a blue globe, whic was much dimmer, and a shorter wavelength that was closer to purple than to green) Also, while low pressure sodium fixtures which focus the light straight down were installed on exits in tunnels where mercury lights were used, compact flourescent tunnesl only get several naked c.f. bulbs around the exit, and these too are pretty bright and distracting.
And being that the green used in the signals is close to the blue used on the c.f.bulbs, don't be surprised to hear about an acident caused by someone runing a red signal because he thought the blue light was a green signal.
That's what we have the trip stoppers for!
Anyway, what's with the (large) bright amber or orange lamps in the platform stairways at the Canal Street station on the 8th Avenue Line?
Hmmm...
---So there are new blue lights in the subway that some people think look a little too much like green signals.
---And there's a certain new pharmaceutical product on the market, aimed at men, which (among other side effects) often makes it difficult for the user to distinguish between blue and green.
Someone could come up with a wisecrack here ... it just won't be me.
A wisecrack.... my what would that be? :Þ
I won't mention the name either, but......
It's a sure win in a palimony suit!!!!!
I have found just one area where there may be confusion due to the new 'blue' lights. Coming north-bound on the D line, approaching Fordham Road. Naturally, enterring the station you'd expect to find a yellow signal. However, the Emergency Alarm Box blue light is in such a position where it:
1) Looks grees
2) Looks like it is directly over the yellow.
Now green over yellow indicates a diverging route which, of course does not exist there. The only confusion is that a train operator might interpret the green aspect instead of the true aspect which is yellow. As you come within 100 to 200 feet of the signal,however, the color ambiguity disappears as does the confusion about the true signal aspect.
How are tunnels supposed to support all the weight on top of them? Like in mannhatten, the #1&9 train tunnels are supporting (there under)the twin towers? {The whole entire city is on top of tunnels!} Especially when the support beams are not there to support. For example... why didn't the tunnel collapse when the #4 train took >10 support beams in the accident that happened a while back?
Steel, steel, and more steel. Next time you're waiting for a train in midtown Manhattan, look around the station. You'll see just how much steel was used. Next time you're at a four-track local stop, or find yourself zooming past a local stop on an express, notice the three rows of steel I-beams, one row between each track, precisely spaced 5 feet apart. Not just in stations, but in tunnels, too. The number of I-beams and girders used in the entire system is incalculable (maybe someone has a gee-whiz fact about this). Of course, the fact that most of Manhattan is solid rock doesn't hurt, either. I don't believe any of the subway lines in the vicinity of the WTC pass directly beneath the twin towers. The PATH tunnels come pretty close, though.
That's why we have engineers to figure out how to build things so they don't collapse. That's why the city keeps building-records on file, and requires engineering surveys before changes are made to buildings, roads, and subways.
--mhg
That accident on the #4 at 14 St. Union Sq. the street did sink about a foot and they would not let traffic on that section of street. Also the columns were not knocked out compleatly, the bases were pushed into the northbound track and the running rail in that track stopped and held them from being taken out compleatly. If there were a train on that track God knows how many more people would have been killed or injured.
That gives you an idea of just how close to the street the original IRT line was built. In most locations, the tunnel roof came to within 30 inches of the street surface. The whole idea was to minimize stair climbing distances for passengers.
Engineering has a lot to do with the strength of tunnels, as does the construction material. However, it should be noted that as strong as the tunnels are, the strongest by far are the river tunnels. Back in the time of the Greeks, they understood that the arch is by far the strongest geometric shape. It is still so today...
It's amazing its come to this, given the economic shape Philly is in. It has no economy, and people are leaving like crazy. Just compare its lack of dynamism with NYC. With few affluent people and businesses, the City has to tax the hell out of those who are left just to maintain services, driving more away. The deterioration of services is part of a downward spiral. The State of Pennsylvania does not have the resources to keep the city afloat.
But NYC is getting expensive, and Philly has (had?) a nice urban environment, mass transit, and affordable housing. Just the other day I was at a 15 year college reunion, and was amazed at how many classmates had recently moved to the Philly Area -- some to the City itself! Perhaps, I thought, Philly could boom as yet another satelite of Manhattan. Perhap businesses and people priced out of Manhattan and the prestige suburbs would move to Philly, and to their business in Manhattan by Amtrack. Perhaps the entire Northeast Corridor could become a new, interlinked info technology region, after the regional downturn of the early 1990s nearly wiped it out.
Don't they know they work for a poor and fragile region, not on Wall Street? Are those guys crazy?
I wonder how many vibrant, pre-auto urban environments will be left in the end. New York, Boston, San Francisco, Chicago (downtown only). Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal. That may be it.
[It's amazing its come to this, given the economic shape Philly is in. It has no economy, and people are leaving like crazy. Just compare its lack of dynamism with NYC.]
But Philadelphia also has a lower unemployment rate than does NYC.
Unemployment rates are deceiving.
In 1988, NYC had an unemployment rate of 5.0 percent, but hundreds of thousands of adults on welfare were not counted as unemployed because they were not looking for work. If the same share of NYC adults had participated in the labor force as in the U.S., the unemployment rate would have been 20 percent.
Now, with welfare reform, these folks are being pushed to look for work. Therefore, although the number of people employed at the city is going up at the fastest rate since records are available (1950), the number of people still looking for jobs, and counted as unemployed, is going up too. Our biggest liability is being revealed by the data, but it was always there. This can go on a long time -- we might hit 15 or 20 percent.
Meanwhile, Upstate New York isn't gaining any jobs -- its losing them -- but the unemployment rate is low and going down. The reason? With labor scarce elsewhere, workers are moving away faster than jobs. My Dad's company is having labor shortages in Tulsa, so it recruits in Buffalo. Upstate also has lots of elderly residents left behind, who do not count as unemployed although they are not working.
The number of jobs in Philly is not going up as much as far as I know. The unemployment rate may be lower because the dependent population is not being pushed as hard to look for work, because people are leaving, or because a larger share of the population is old. As a whole (census estimate for 1996), 15.9 percent of the Pennsylvania pop was over age 65, second in the U.S. behind Florida.
[re NYC unemployment rates being boosted by ex-welfare recipients being forced to look for work]
I see the logic in what you say, especially the point about labor force participation rates having been historically low. Yet I'm still somewhat skeptical as to whether there really are enough ex-welfare people flooding the workforce so as to account for the high unemployment rate. Figure that there were recently about one million people on welfare. A significant percentage of them must have been children or (sometimes fraudulently) disabled people, who can't enter the labor force. I just wonder whether the remaining ex-welfare job seekers - some of whom must have found jobs, of course - could account for the high unemployment rate.
Maybe the issue is one of skill mismatch. Many if not most of the new jobs that New York's economy is creating have relatively high skill demands. If a lot of the unemployed people have low skill levels (that's certainly true with the ex-welfare people), they might be ill-suited to the modern city economy.
The rise in the labor force is driven by two factors: older whites who do not work being replaced by immigrants who do, and former welfare recipiants (about 600,000 adults at the peak) looking for jobs. Interstingly, the NYC labor force participation was historically high -- I have data since 1900 -- until the 1960s, when it became the city that doesn't work.
A little economic humor. Politicians are touting the huge rise in the number of NYC residents who are employed, based on the household survey. It went up faster than the number of jobs in the ciyt. How did that happen? The federal government never adjusted the survey to account for "workfare." The question is "did you work for pay in the past week." Any workfarites in the survey may be answering YES! This drives up both employment and labor force participation, and drives unemployment down. When I asked about this, the Bureau of Labor Stats people just said -- gee, never thought of that! No one seems to have figured it out!
Chicago is making a huge comeback in regards to people re-discovering and moving back. The commute from the suburbs has become so tedious for those who don’t use METRA that living in the city near your office has caught on big time. METRA can only provide so many parking places in the ‘burbs for its customers. Many people, especially the younger group, prefer to drive.
The Loop, West Loop, Near North and South Loop have become the place where townhomes sprout up like mushrooms and old factories become condo’s and loft apartments. Places where you wouldn’t venture in the daytime are becoming upper middle class over night. Cabrini-Green will have all of its high rises and most of the lower level building demolished. The Robert Taylor homes on the Southside along with most of the Henry Horner Homes just west of the United Center will share the same fate. Don’t think this destruction of CHA units is going un-noticed by its residences. They feel they are being pushed out, and they are right. However, without getting political, if Mayor Daley had his choice of picking between a block of CHA housing and a block of tax producing townhomes, what do you think the choice would be?
What this I would like to see is the CTA and the Mayor office take a pro-active approach to improving bus and rapid transit service presently offered and develop new service to entice those moving into the near Loop locations. This will be a challenge, as in the past the Mayor has only looked to the CTA as an employment agency for his political cronies.
Glad to hear Chicago is doing well. Maybe people are waking up to city living elsewhere. Philly could capitalize on this and, as I said, some of my college classmates have moved there. Bad time for this nonsense.
A couple of things I'd like to pass along, as a lifelong Philadelphian:
1. If you want to really get the ire of a true Philadelphian, describe it as a satellite of NYC. I always heard this from folks who came here to go to college, take a job for a few years, etc etc. It's funny how many of them stay. As much as I like NYC and its transit, I always treat it as a nice place to visit but no place I'd want to live.
2. Yes, many NYC'ers are moving to this area - cheaper housing, more open space, etc. Does this make this area any more civilized? I would beg to differ. It only takes a couple of visits to the Poconos to see how transplanted NYC folks can ruin an area - by this I mean they want to change the land uses to their liking, get rid of industry, etc. If this is progress, I'll stay backward.
3. Jobs in Phila are starting to rise. One major factor is transit. It's darn hard to get the inner-city workforce out to Silicon Valley every day - stop at the Wissahickon Loop any weekday and watch the King of Prussia buses come in crowded and leave packed with city folk headed to suburban jobs. Employers are starting to realize it's easier to bring the jobs to the people than vice versa. Yes, the recent mega bank mergers and the division of Conrail will cause the city some job losses, but there are many areas of gain.
4. Phila has a lot to offer and there's more to it than meets the eye. There are many good areas in which one can live and have fairly easy commutes to Center City (unfortunately, with the current SEPTA strike, it's not happening as this is written). This is another factor often lost on those who come here for a short time and never venture out of University City or wherever they happen to be. I saw it frequently during my four years of college.
5. I was back at my college recently to judge student projects. A group did a transit study of the region and places that the students would want to go but couldn't easily reach due to lack of good transit. For each of the dozen areas they identified, a quick check of a SEPTA map would show that all of them were easy to reach, and over half of them involved a one-seat transit ride! When the group did its economic analysis, they showed that students would pay up to $9 one way for a one-seat ride to the King of Prussia mall area. Imagine their shock when I told them about SEPTA's 124/125 bus service at $3.10 each way. Maybe I shouldn't have told them and instituted my own gypsy cab service on weekends for $9 a pop.
6. Don't count Phila out just yet. It is a very livable city and our transit is good (when it's running). Recent statistics show that over 40% of city households do not own a car - whether it's the high price of car ownership or the availability of good transit, I'll let you make that decision.
s
Well said. I have a few observations to add...
This is my first year actually living in Philadelphia (University City). As I come from upstate New York, and have seen the job crunch that has hit that area, I look to Philadelphia, not only for a job,
but as an opportunity. As I go to Drexel, (for those of you who don't know, we are in the shadows of Penn); I will have the opportunity to spend 18 months out of the next five years in a full time "real" job (no more burgers for me! [I hope]) -- and if I like the job, given the opportunity I would gladly stay in the area.
Recently I was talking with other "transplanted" friends about the economy in Philadelphia. Our conclusion: It may not be that the problem with Philly is Philly, but Harrisburg. Anyway, I digress, that is for another forum...
This is a city that, at least to me, is in a mass turn-around. The center-city skyline of today is dramatically different than that of the Philadelphia I visited as a kid. Other (non-mass) transit projects in the area, such as the Vine Street Expressway, the Blue route, among others, have helped city-wide throughput (or spread out the gridlock).
Most of us that live here now have taken the opportunity to explore Philadelphia. It is those from bigger cities such as NY that seem to be the least happy here. Since we are the 5th (or 4th, depending who you believe) largest city, and the second largest on the Eastern Sea-Board; many people are satisfied with the region.
I don't, therefore, think Phila is doomed. Even if SEPTA is never resolved, (which someday, along with world peace will be acheived) Phila is a pedistrian city. However, the sooner I ride an M4, the happier I will be.
Now, I think I am going down to 30th Street, buying a Pretzel, and see how the regional rail lines, which are saving Philly at the moment are working.
One more benefit Philly has: 60 percent of its housing units are one-family row houses. NYC, on the other hand, has more than half of its housing units in apartment buildings with 10+ units. Most units have one or two bedrooms -- 3+ bedroom units are hard to come by. As the baby boomers had kids, many have found they cannot find what they consider "family housing" within city limits.
The cost of a row house is exploding. I bought mine for $209,000 a few years ago, and Thank God I did, because I couldn't afford it today. A similar house sold for $400,000, a bigger two family one block over for $600,000. It's INSANE. Friends who are renting can't afford to buy, and they are heartbroken. They don't want to live in the suburbs. Some have left the region entirely in disgust. One just moved to New Orleans a few weeks ago -- they had been living over a store.
Maybe they should move to Philly -- if the transit system starts working again. My part of Brooklyn seems to be similar to Philly. In fact, several of our neighbors are from Philly.
As for the problem with Harrisburg, Philly is not alone. I don't call it the Vampire State (instead of the Empire State) for nothing.
Vampire State! Thats great, in the 19 years I lived in Syracuse I never heard that one... I think there is mutual disaffection (is there such a word) for Albany no matter where you live/work in NY. In Syracuse, at least, we do!
Two more points I must mention, to build on what has been expressed here (and I thank DB for support - but watch it with the funny remarks about that Ivy League school across 33rd St from Drexel High!).
1. It's easy to blame others for your problems, but many of Phila's are a result of Penna's politics and policies. The rest of Penna views Phila as that deep hole in which money is continually shoveled, while it ignores how much of the state's funds comes from its southeastern corner. Penna has the largest rural population in the US and you don't need to travel far to see the anti-urban, mainly anti-
Phila sentiment.
I recall visiting the Rockhill Trolley Museum, nestled in the mountains of Central Penna, a few years back. On a ride on a Red Arrow Bullet car, the motorman stopped at the end of track and gave some history of the trolley in general and Penna's trolleys in specific. Some moron (for lack of a better term) began going on about how Phila abandoned its lines, what an awful place, how could those awful people let that happen, etc etc. I asked him if he had ever been there and he told me, "No, it's too dangerous." I also asked him if the state should support transit better to allow all those car lines to remain. His reply: "Why should I? I don't use it. Let those folks down there pay for it." Have you heard this before? Which leads to...
2. Phila's not as bad as people say it is (W C Fields?). Like any big city, a murder in a troubled part of town, the wrong person gets carjacked, etc etc and it's big news. Newspapers and their reporters run off to new digs in the suburbs and editorialize about how the city should solve its problems, etc etc. The top stories on the news are always bad ones. Taxes are too high. More that you've heard before, nothing new. If you get to know the city, you find things that may surprise you. Don't believe everything you read and hear on TV.
Sure, we have our troubles, but our newly-imported-from-the-Big-Apple top cop is already on the case.
Sorry Bobw, did not mean any disrespect to my neighbors, and my future temporary home (long story that is not interesting). (I will let the 'Drexel High' comment about Philadelphia's most wired and fastest growing private university; slip with no more mention)...
Seriously, though, my attitude toward SEPTA and the region changed, and I am sorry (in a way) to leave in a week for the summer.
Anyway, just a few more remarks from your average insomniac high sch uh college student...
Touche. I work with many from your esteemed university and have to bear the brunt of being pointed at as the token Ivy Leaguer, so I have to take shots when I can. Yours is truly an esteemed place of higher learning.
When you return from your summer away, bring some bright folks back with you. There's a lot of opportunity in the place that loves you back (ugh - I hate that saying). And maybe the bozos from TWU will be back at work by then...
Well, if you want a good comeback to that, just mention the U of Penn at Drexel (or Drexel Campus of U Penn). The other one is IVY-Light (These are both aimed at DU, by the way, from some of my friends at Penn it could piss them off too,)
That is like calling Philly a suburb of NYC to some people. Of course, you did not hear that from me....
Bright people are hard to come by, "What did you expect? This is New York" (I hate that worse then the city that loves you back)
Actually, it seems that that phrase would fit better for SEPTA
Strike? High Fares? What did you expect, this is SEPTA. At your Service.
Never implied that Philly was a suburb of New York. Only that given economic change, it might be able to prosper by becoming one -- and supplying the quality urban lifestyle which is becomming expensive here. If everyone is going to arrive at 9, leave at 5, and work five days, 2 million is about the max employment you're going to get in Manhattan. But new technology allows many more people can be more tangentally linked to Manhattan, working at home or in satellite offices and coming in for meetings, and that's the way its going. Maybe the whole Northeast will become linked in this way. One could I knew lived in Princeton Jct. One commuted to Philly, the other to NYC. Better AMTRACK service would help. Perhaps AMTRACK will go under, so the Northeast Corridor doesn't have to subsidize everything else, and could be opened up to competing private railroads on a public right of way. Bet it would be cheaper, more profitable and better service than the airlines, the bus lines, and the existing AMTRACK.
Is there a possibility of multiple AMTRACK stations in Philly, for super-commuters to have access closer to their neighborhoods? How about AMTRACK direct to Downtown Philly, rather than across the river.?
[1. It's easy to blame others for your problems, but many of Phila's are a result of Penna's politics and policies. The rest of Penna views Phila as that deep hole in which money is continually shoveled, while it ignores how much of the state's funds comes from its southeastern corner. Penna has the largest rural population in the US and you don't need to travel far to see the anti-urban, mainly anti-
Phila sentiment.]
Funny, you could say the same thing about New York city and state.
"Funny, you could say the same thing about New York city and state."
Or Chicago versus "Downstate" Illinois. (In Illinois, everything outside the six metropolitan counties is Downstate, even if it is geographically north of Chicago.)
I can think of two cities which are supported to a great extent by their respective states - Baltimore and Portland, OR. In just about any other state, the big cities are anathema. Just look at New Jersey. As long as the cities are treated this way (and federal policy isn't in their favor either - the root of much of the debate against mass transit funding), all big cities will be doomed to bear the problems they have.
I agree that Philly is quite livable. even our ghettos aren't as bad as some in NYC or even Detroit I could name.
Some history, PRR used to market monthly commuter tickets between Philly area points & NYC including pre-sell-off LIRR points. Both punch anf flash unlimited--these were good on everything but the Florida trains and B'way Ltd & General. So in fact in the sixties when I was there did commute on this route. It has been common US behaviour to "slash & burn" with regard to both labor and land;--the deliberate destruction of industrial capacity in one region in order to move to an area of state enforced low wages. This willingness to 'write off' large areas has been at the root of major social disasters in our history. Unintended consequences?? The combination of the interstates, GI bill/FHA single family sprawl and then a generation later the de facto halving of the standard of living (do YOU know any single breadwinner two adult three child families able to afford good housing in an attractive suburb???) have combined to destroy the density considered necessary to fixed transit. Add the movement of many jobs also to these dispersed EDGE CITIES (see book by Joel Garreau 'celebrating' this very trend) AND the parallel decimation of the tax rolls in the actual cities and yoiu have economic disaster for all services. Although not necessarily part of his planning this has resulted in David Stockman's idea of savaging the revenue receipts so as to force the scuttling of government services. Recent moves in Illinois illustrate this problem. Since the political clout is now primarily in the far 'burbs the commuter rail system is constantly being improved while CTA is being starved. Unless and until the economic secession by the overly monied is restrained we can only dream of such necessities as the Second Ave line. In turn, as long as companies can play off job hungry governing units against each other for goodies rational location of work will not occur. Witness the situation here in the BayArea: people driving two hours each way to jobs in Sillicon Valley because the nimbys won't build enough housing near the jobs. In turn the latest tail wagging the dog is a trend within SF itself. Newly well off dataserfs are now driving up the price of housing as San Francisclo becomes a bedroom community for San Jose! The so called reverse commutes are now as awful as the "normal". Thanks for reading this long rant
Your rant is not half as bad as my rants.
Land use is the central hypocracy of conservative Republicanism. Those pro-market, anti-regulation folks are happy to have the government regulate the housing market to keep low, moderate and middle income households -- and their burdens out of their communities. If suburban zoning wasn't limited to detached houses on large lots, at least some older houses would be subdivided into apartments rented to the poor.
Near where the jobs are. While they don't want people who need services, they want taxpaying businesses to reduce their own tax burden while making luxo-services affordable. And businesses would rather locate near their executives, in new and affluent surroundings.
For a couple of decades, these businesses could fill low wage jobs despite middle or better income housing. Underemployed suburban housewives, rural people left over as the suburbs were built, and the huge number of baby boom teens filled the gap. But now -- LABOR SHORTAGE! The poor are trapped in the cities, away from the jobs, and the lower and moderate skill jobs are in the suburbs, isolated from the labor force.
The suburban solution? Can you say SOWETO! The cities should pay to bus the poor out to suburban businesses in the morning, and bus them back in the evening, preferably before dark. A Long Island planner actually told me the rise in out-commuting is great because they need the labor and "can't accomodate" the housing, but couldn't the city provide buses so those people wouldn't drive and block the roads? ARRGH.
Guess who gets it -- the smartest mayor in America -- Ed Rendell. Could we borrow him when Rudy's term is up? Philly taxes are high and services are bad, he says, because 80 percent of the region's poor live in the city and 80 percent of its non-poor do not. At least NYC has rich Manhattan to keep it afloat.
You are right that there's a lot of "reverse commuting" to Long Island. When I change at Jamaica in the mornings there's always a lot of people waiting on the Eastbound platforms for Long Island trains. And that despite only cursory attempts to coordinate bus service at the stations to accommodate reverse commuters.
The same is evident with the current SEPTA strike. One of the big themes on the news and in the papers is the inability of Phila residents to get to their places of employment in the King of Prussia area by the combination of Regional Rail and suburban bus routes (many of which were crippled early Tue by TWU pickets at the Victory/69th Street complex).
I agree with much of what you are saying, but it's not that simple.
You say in relation to metropolitan Chicago (I hate the non-word "Chicagoland") that "the commuter rail system is constantly being improved while CTA is being starved."
Where are all those suburban commuters (270,000 each day) going? To jobs in the Loop! Without improvements in the Metra system that keep downtown Chicago within reasonable commuting time (1 to 1.5 hours) from the far suburbs, these people who are now not clogging the roads would be driven (pun intended) to take jobs in the "edge cities" and the businesses they work for would be driven to relocate to the "edge cities".
Face reality: Chicago has always had suburbs, and there will always be people who want to live in the suburbs. I happen to like Chicago, but not everyone wants to live in a high-rise, loft, three-flat, or bungalow. There have always been and will be people who want the two-car-garage-and-yard detached house, and will go to the suburbs to get it.
The real problem is NOT that people have moved to the suburbs to live but that JOBS have moved to the suburbs, the "edge cities", and on that point we agree. It makes much more sense to utilize the capacity and the economies of scale of a downtown than to have office parks scattered about the suburbs generating traffic jams. The government should get rid of policies that encourage business to build a new office park in a cornfield and discourage renting in a skyscraper downtown.
But if you take the money away from Metra in order to benefit the CTA (I admit the CTA needs improvements, I just don't think the source of the necessary funds is Metra), then you will ENcourage the growth of edge cities. The companies that are choosing to stay downtown -- and some are even moving there from the suburbs -- have many choices available to them. Make it harder for their workforce to get to them by impairing Metra, and they may decide the "edge cities" are more attractive than the real thing.
The mix of Metra, Pace and CTA is tenuous. Metra and CTA are perhaps compatable but Pace is another animal altogether. The people in the RTA resent sending cash to the City and the State does not set fair operating rules so there is an incentive to send funds to suburban services that may be needed but that do not have the same operating requiremetns that the CTA does (50% fare box recovery) What is un realistic, the suburban services or the 50% recovery ratio? CTA can use the support and the suburbs may need the bus service. The funding structure may put unreasonable demands on the CTA while sucking funds to the burbs. CTA, METRA and PACE all need to be funded but they should not be at war with eachother, as is now with the rules I-DOT and the Rep's down-state have created in the region.
CTA service is the most important service in the region followed by METRA but the Pace service is also an important component in the communities that it serves.
My experience is money flows to power, not to need, so regional entities always suck money out of the city. In New York, NYC is required to contribute to the Transit Authority using local tax dollars. The state contributes all the tax dollars to the LIRR and Metro North. But where does the state get its tax dollars? Half of them come from the city.
My point is that you can't easily separate into two boxes revenue from the city and expenditures on suburban commuter rail. Revenue from the city includes businesses located in Manhattan but staffed susbstantially by people who live in the suburbs and take LIRR or Metro North into the city every weekday. Expenditure on the commuter rail is thus one of the factors that generates the revenue from the city.
Which is not to say that city transit should be shortchanged, just that it should not be improved at the expense of suburban trains (or, to agree with you, that suburban trains should be improved as the expense of city transit).
The services and jobs are provided in the cities and the suburbs use the services that are provided. Jobs, arts, museums, medical facilities etc. I had a town board chairman tell me once "As long as the city provides the services that we need for free, we will take them."
As a one time resident of South Shore commuting either on the IC or CTA to a job in the loop, I have some sense of the pattern. HOWEVER, The recent series of vicious service cuts by CTA which are apparently mandated by fundinbg restrictions are remeniscent of the fraud of the early fifties when CTA was 1 forced to balance its budget and 2 pay off outrageous bailout bonds which had been issued in exchange for the junk bonds of the failed CSL and CRT. If those properties had been acquired at "fair market value" their would have been no debt. As a result of this debt burden CTA started out with a ball and chain. As to the utility of suburban service, I am all for it, but the image of Santa Fe some years ago moving its hq to some cornfield is ludicrous. It is indeed the land use that must be reined in. At the same time the elimination of the one real express bus from Altgeldt Gardens to the Red Line at the same time as hammering these residents to find jobs is a cruel hoax. Who wants to ride 2+ hours each way to a s--t job?
I heard the author of the book "The Edge City" speak. He claimed that Schaumburg is as big as San Diego. I do not know if he is speaking of Sq. Miles, population or if he can even verify the claim but it is interesting.
The one intellegent Edge City point is that people like suburbs because there are no poor people. Local government is inherently redistributive -- you pay in according to your income or property value, but everyone gets the same schools, parks, and streets. He claims the suburban vs. city preference is based on lifestyle -- auto, detached house, office park vs. transit, walking, rowhouse, downtown. I say, with Ed Rendell, that it is all the flight from the poor and their fiscal burden. If the poor were in the suburbs, no one would live there. In France the housing projects are outside the city, and everyone wants to live inside.
It is the absence of the poor and working class, and their tax and social burdens, which also attracts business. Why is Swiss Bank moving to Stanford, CT? Yes, Connecticut agreed to build them a building rent and tax free, but more importantly when the Swiss executives walk down the street they want to see rich blondes not poor blacks. In fact, I think that should be their economic development slogan: "Connecticut: Rich Blonds, Not Poor Blacks." So where is any employee earning less than $200,000 per year going to live? New London? And how are they going to get to Stamford? Have you seen I-95? Forget the train -- parking is so scarce at the stations that some people have to take shuttle buses.
More on the Nutmeg State (I realize I'm getting out of control but I can't help it). A public discussion of reverse commuting as a source of jobs for welfare recipients brought a hysterical response for Greenwich officials "oh no, we have no jobs, don't send them." A relative lived in an apartment over a store in Westport (where Paul Newman and other celeberties live) for a while, and (as one of the few renters in town) was not allowed to use the beach. So we went to a state beach for a picnic, and the entry free was triple for a car with New York plates compared with the in-state fee (everyone is welcome in New York State Parks, including the famous Jones Beach, at the same price). I told the guy "I thought your state tourism slogan was "Connecticut, We're Full of Surprises!" He replied "Oh we'll surprise you New Yorkers to Death." A relative of a friend lives in a big house in Greenwich, and was complaining about the high cost of a wide variety of services. Might it not result from low wage workers not being able to afford to live in a hugh part of the state, I asked? That's what Port Chester (a working class town of 25,000 just over the border in New York) is for, she replied. But Port Chester is fully developed. Do they expect it to grow to half a million people?
And don't get me started on New Jersey!
Center City Philly in comparrison to NY:
I'm wondering how familiar you are with Center City Philadelphia when you make the following statement:
"Philly has (had?) a nice urban environment, mass transit, and affordable housing. Just the other day I was at a 15 year college reunion, and was amazed at how many classmates had
recently moved to the Philly Area -- some to the City itself!"
I would argue that with its combination of relatively affordable housing, cultural attractions, extensive park system (one of the largest in the country) and historic architecture, Center City Philly is far more attractive than most of its suburbs. Yes the tax burden is high, but for me it was still less than the difference between rent in the suburbs and rent in the city. And that doesn't even account for the expense of needing a car in the suburbs which is not true in the city. Also, Center city is in much better condition than it was several years ago. It's much cleaner, there are more restaurants, more cultural events, etc.
Philly has a few attractions over NYC that become clearer when you look at affordability. It is difficult to compare NY and PA because NY has a sliding scale similar to federal taxes while PA has a fixed rate of 2.8%. Philly is forced to tax at such a high rate (4.85%) because it receives little support from the state (which has limited resources because it has the lowest state income tax rate in the region - by far). The combined local tax rate in philly is 7.65%. In NYC if you make more than about $42K / yr you're taxed at a rate higher than 7.65% (state and city combined) which can go as high as almost 12%. This is in addition to property/rent rates that are easily twice if not three times what they are in philly (I'm not exagerating this). Wages are higher in NY, but not typically 2x to 3x. No, Philadelphia can't hold a candle to the dynamism of NY but it is certainly better than most of the suburban communities between NY and Philly. And NY has become so expensive that it just isn't an option for many (if not most) people.
Finally, consider that philly is only a 1hr, 45min drive/bus ride or 1hr, 20 min train ride from Manhattan - and living there does become a practical option over NY if you don't need to be at the office every day.
I couldn't have said it better myself. I agree that Phila is no NYC but then again no one here is pretending that it is. We're close enough that, if we want the flash and the dynamics, it's less than a 2 hour train ride away. And even there we have two options - Amtrak or SEPTA/NJT.
I agree that the state income tax could be higher to support the cities of Penna but good luck getting the rest of the state to go along. And seeing how the state supports our rural areas, I wouldn't be too concerned about our limited resources, rather I think we could allocate them much more fairly.
Anyone in NJ want a new largest city? Perhaps you'd appreciate Phila more than the Commonwealth of Penna does.
I've often thought that all of New York State south of I-84 should quit the Vampire State and join NJ. New Jersey's tax base would increase, since the per capita income is higher in Downstate New York and so many businesses are concentrated here. By adopting the Garden State's fiscal policies, the city would end up spending less on the Medico-Industrial context and more on transportation and schools. And NJ would have less incentive to rip us off.
I know that there are plenty of people Upstate who would like this plan. They are born with a certainty that New York City is draining them. The fact that the per captia income of upstate is about the same as that of Brooklyn, the second poorest county downstate, and that most state revenues come from its income tax, dissuades them not at all.
Philadelphia believes that regionalizing the tax base will help it, because it is the poorhouse of the region. New York's reality is that it is both the poor house and cash cow of the state, at the same time. Money flows to power, not to need.
We studied east-coast break away states in school as a lark, but some of our results were quite interesting.
#49 Downstate NY, Long Island. Even though NJ has successfully claimed Ellis Island (what ever happened to Squatter's Rights, anyway) I don' think the rest of the city would be happy being part of the garden state, but perhaps take North Jersey also here. State name: Newer York. (RY)
#50 Greater Deleware Valley - including the 5-county PA Philly area, South Jersey (which of course takes the shore points too,)Deleware. State Name: Deleware Valley (DV)
Of course, I am sure this would never happen, but there would be no necessary rearrangement of the Start-and-Stripes, or anything.
Then there is the term BOSNYACKADELPHIA or NYTONDELPHIA, but this would create one heck of an ameobic state
Looking at the conditions of cities in NJ - Newark, Trenton, Camden - I think NJ would be worse than PA for Philly.
You mentioned the dual train choice of Amtrak or SEPTA/NJT for the Philly - NY trip. For someone who loves trains, I have to admit that I don't use either of the two rail options. I do the trip at least twice a month - but Amtrak is SO EXPENSIVE that it's just not practical. ($72 is the cheapest round trip on an unreserved train Monday through Thursday and Saturday- If you travel on the weekend it approaches $90 RT and it's only about 15 min. faster than the bus).
The Trenton transfer from SEPTA to NJT is so unreliable that instead of 2.5 hours - it frequently ends up being 3.5 hours. ($24 RT)
As un-glamorous as it may be, I take the bus. It's $31 RT, leaves every half hour at busy times on weekends, and usually takes 1 hour, 50 minutes with no hassle of a transfer. I wish I could afford to take Amtrak - but while they use the NE corridor to fund the rest of the system, it remains only an option for business travellers. Just to put this in perspective, NY - Montreal RT on Amtrak costs about $20 more than NY - Philly Round trip, but it's more than 4 times the distance.
About NJ (and no offense to any NJ residents) - with the line-up you mentioned, don't you think NJ would love the opportunity to have a REAL big city in its state? I used to think that there was a state law that every NJ town over X population had to look like a casualty from war. However, I'm not convinced that it's totally to blame on the state - close to Phila, for example, look at the mayor recently elected in Camden. No political experience, no formal education to speak of, and an alleged hoodlum - what will he bring to the table in terms of future investment in impoverished Camden?
I agree about Amtrak, but it is an option. I usually drive to Trenton and take NJT trains when I need to go north. I've also tried driving to New Brunswick and taking Suburban Transit's express bus but I prefer the train and its options of the transfer to PATH at Newark or the direct trip into NYC.
Charles,
Hope you didn't think I lost interest in those roll signs. I would be more than happy to work something out - privately. It's just that I prefer not to have my address floating around in the public domain. Please email me at steveb@micromotion.com and we'll take it from there. Thanks!
Charles,
Got your email this morning - thanks! I responded to the address from which it originated, so if you don't find it, let me know. I will try the other address in that case. I can only send emails through Novel - we're not set up to respond directly over the internet.
he May 1998 issue of The Map is now in general circulation.
Cosmetic changes:
May 1998 is printed on the front of the map.
The colors on the inside are several shades darker than the 2 previous
issues.
Information changes:
The yellow S (Queensbridge Shuttle) is shown terminating at 34 St/Bway
New info box: Reconstruction E and F Changes July 29, 1998 - Sept 8, 1998 E and F trains will operate via 60 St/Broadway line every
night between 10:30 PM and 5:00 AM.
New info box: FRANKLIN AVENUE SHUTTLE July 24, 1998 - December 1999
The Franklin Avenue Shuttle will be closed for
reconstruction. Replacement shuttle bus service between
Franklin Av/Fulton St A, C and Prospect Park D,Q will be
provided at all times.
Note: On the map the Franklin Shuttle is shown as a dotted line.
Beverley Road on the #2, 5 is still spelled without the last e.
In the "About The Map" section they go into some detail about the July 4 start of the unlimited passes. They also indicate that there will be Unlimited Rides Brochures in the subway stations.
If your station does not have the new May issue, you can always get it at (where else) the Transit Museum Gift Shop at Grand Central Terminal.
Other things::
MetroCard Holders - the new set of 4 will be available in the Gift shop sometime soon. It was expected to be ready 6/1/98 but no delivery was made.
I checked today (6/2) and there is no estimate as to when they will get them.
Subway Cars on MetroCards - yes you heard me right. One of the latest special edition cards is for Jazz In Motion sponsered by JVC. It features R-4 car 713 on the A line ("Take the A train) and an R-62A car behind 2 muscians at theGrand Central Shuttle ("Music Under New York")
Note: These pictures are both on one card, so don't look for 2 separate cards.
The best place to get it? The TM Gift Shop in Grand Central Terminal. The card is in the $15 denomination.
That's it for now.
Are you speaking of the standard subway map or "The Map" (subway and commuter rail)?
Of course
I picked up a copy today.
Does anyone yet know the details of how the E and F will run through the 60th St. tunnel? They obviously cannot get back to their normal routes from there. On occasion in the past, the E has been run through the 60th St. tunnel and simply made all stops to Whitehall St., on the assumption that it is only a few blocks from where it would otherwise be. But the F is more problematic. There is no access to the F line in Brooklyn from the Broadway BMT, so another F service will have to be run. Would it run to 57 St./6 Ave?
There will in fact be a split F train. One will operate from Queens to 34th Street on the Broadway Line. The other will operate from 42nd Street on the 6th Avenue Line to Brooklyn.
Hi all,
As Allan posted about The Map, May 1998 issue info. This got me wondering if someone is planning to photograph & videotape whole FS line before and after the re-construction and post them on nycsubway.org web site?
Also does anyone photograph everything before El were torn down? a example would be Culver line on this site.
Cheers,
Michael Adler
USPS Mailman in Denver, ColorFUL Colorado
Anyone up for a Shuttle field trip? I'm not lugging my camera around without some protection :-)
-Dave
I'm up for it! I have to scheule it, though; I've got a Cross-Harbor trip coming up, too...
-Hank
I have a slew of photos of Franklin:
- Out the front windows riding up and down the ROW
- Platform shots
I also have done the same with the Culver SS (RIP)
- I have a silly amount of photos of those 4 stations
My other favorites are:
- platform shots (with the old signs) of the B'way, Jam, New Lots
and Canarsie ELs
Who else has same?
I am particularly interested in platform shots, especially with wooden planks (on the ELs, of course).
Ben-Zion,
Do you have these phots on a web site? I'd love to see them!
No, I need to do something about them: the pictures are square 110 film prints, reasonable quality (but some extras are dark and I would like to work on them)
I checked the negatives and was upset to discover that on some the negatives have changed color! I didn't know this was possible. I would like to reprint/improve them but I don't know now whether I should pay a couple of dollars each for custom reprinting and color adjustment or scan the prints and do it on computer!
Do you Dave (or anyone else) have an opinion on the capabilities of computer manipulation vs trying to work with reprinting negatives (some of which have changed color anyway as I've said)? Do you think the current photo programs and scanning quality today are better, or competitive with the alternative I mentioned?
Ben-Zion,
The average household scanner (even up to the high end slide-negative scanners) aren't going to be able to do much if your negatives have faded. (They've probably become orange-colored, right?) Even with Photoshop it is difficult because if the color data isn't there to begin with it's hard to manipulate. :-)
Maybe a pro lab with a drum scanner and other really high end digital press stuff could do a better job. If you're in NYC, there are a number of places that can try. There's a photo restoration specialist on (I think) 22nd? bet. 6th & 7th. and a lot of other digital press shops in that area (Adorama, etc.) Could probably find some of these places on the web.
Now, since you said you have prints, those are probably usable. I'd guess the color of the prints hasn't faded as bad as the negatives? Those can probably be scanned with "not-bad" results... "good enough for web site work".
-Dave
I would love to videotape the shuttle before and after. However, I need to keep my camera equipment! I won't do this alone. The only video I have (at Franklin Avenue & Fulton Street) was done on a Transit Museum tour and the photos I have along the line (Dean St) were done on the "Farewell to the R-30 Fantrip". Safety in numbers.
I'd be game for an "en masse" field trip.
Oh yeah, when is the shuttle supposed to stop running again??
--Mark
Has anyone got any videos of any fantrips or nostalgia trips on the Triplex train? I never got to ride the Triplex units, although had we waited until rush hour on July 21 and 22, 1965, I would have had a chance - and to think the last ones were withdrawn on the 23rd! That's the one drawback to living in metro Denver - I get to New York only once a year, and miss out on all those fantrips.
If anyone has any footage of the train heading in or out of the Transit Museum through the front window, that would be super!
How about going a step further!
Does someone have a picture of Franklin Junction?
You mean where the old Brighton line diverged from the Fulton El? I'd like to see that myself, before the El was torn down ....
--Mark
I sen this message to Joe K.
I was hoping that you or someone might have a picture of the Fulton El
/Franklin Junction like the one in Uptown Downtown or Under the Sidewalks of New York (which ever) of the Lexington/Broadway El Junction.
Maybe Dave pirman can help us out.
I've been looking since Mark posted the idea this afternoon.
It would have to be from the pre 1920 era because I think that is when the connection was removed, coinciding with the opening of the DeKalb Ave (& Flatbush) Tunnel route.
The best that I've been able to locate is a depression era photo of the Franklin Av station on the Fulton El. What strikes me funny is that the train is signed for Franklin Ave, yet the caption implies that the train is leaving the Franklin Stattion. The overhead passenger crossover to the Brooklyn Bridge direction traffic is right in the middle of the photo.
That's great.
There were som Malbone St (Wreck) postings a couple of weeks ago.
Maybe some of those posters may have more info and pix.
If you have access to past issues of ERA's "Headlights" ,
The January/February 1993 Issue has a half page 1915 photo of a Lormier Street Trolley on the Lincoln-Flatbush-Malbone Loop that looks right down on the Brighton's Prospect Park Station.
Man. Talk about peaceful looking scenes.
I guess you haven't seen all of the NYC Subway Resources Site :)
Here's a videos list from my personal collection that Dave Pirmann graciously allows me to maintain as part of this site. And next week the list will be updated with four additional videos.
--Mark
Another silly question from the guy who started the light bulb
thread: :)
Do motormen & door operators switch routes in any order? Wouldn't
someone go crazy just operating the time square-grand central
shuttle all day long? Does the A train driver ever take a 6
train?
I'm sure that the train operators (we don't use the non-politically correct motorman title anymore) and/or conductors who regularly post here will have more to say on the subject. However, boredom from a management standpoint is always a problem. Train operators (and conductors) pick a job several times a year. They may elect to remain on the same line or move arround. Some pick the 'Extra List' and work open jobs throughout the system. Some elect to work the Misc. Equipment.
Does the T/O on the Time Square/Grand Central Shuttle ever get bored? Does the person who bolts the tires onto new cars ever get bored? Does a dentist? Of course they do. The trouble is that Vertical Job Enhancement (to end boredom) is very difficult in a union/civil service dominated environment.
A while back I had a chat with a conductor working the TSS-GCT (S) shuttle. He was wearing a very dapper "dress" conductor's uniform. He told me that it was one of the most senior jobs on the system; to hold that each pick, especially with weekends and nights off, one had be near the very top of the seniority list.
I suppose the opposite is true of the (A) or (4) local on the overnight/weekend shift...
I met the Nyc Crew that won the national operators rodeo for rail operations last year and the conductor was impressive in his full uniform, and I told him so while I congatulated him and his partenr the train operator on their achievenents.
Seniority is a relative thing. If you have it and can have your pick of what you want it's great. If you don't have so much it may not look quite as nice but it leaves you something to aspire to.
On the R-110A... what/where is the dead mans feature. From the pictures that I seen, I don't see anything on the acc./break handle. It looks like its easy to work that handle since it is only up to go and down to stop.
Like the original master controller handle on the R-44/46, the R-110A master controller handle must be rotated 90 degrees to engage the deadman's feature. When released, the handle will turn back and dump the train.
Does the A train driver ever take a 6
train?
Not likely. Train crews pick to work in either the A Div. or the B Div.
The "A" train is in the B Div. while the "6" train is in the A Div.
Train crews can work any line in the Div. they have picked. I have not heard of crews being assigned to work in the Div. other than that they have picked or been assigned.
As a Conductor, the crew member who operates the doors during station stops, I work vacation relief in the A Div. I enjoy the variety and the experince I am gaining, also if I get stuck with a job I don't like, it's only for one week.
I was impressed yesterday by Septa's full-page apology for the strike(which they needn't do-virtually all of Philadelphia is behind them). They apoplogized for the actions of the TWU, gave details of the final proposal they made and told us that they were sorry for what's happening.
To see this letter, visit the Septa site @ www.septa.com, go to the septa news section and the letter is right there.
I tire of this cycle of strikes Septa seems to fall into every 3-5 years. What are theses people protesting?
I've talked to a few Transit workers lately and tell me that one of the practices they are protesting is this:
Septa does not grant beneifts until you have worked there for 90 days. What Septa does is hire you for that time and fire you on the 88th or 89th day, and though you've put in your time, you get no benefits and lose your job-for no reason.
I consider this worthy, but there's better ways to solve it than crippling America's fifth largest city.
For more coverage from the city view, check out the Daily News site.
No one is going to hire an train a worker good, then fire them after 88 days. It doesn't make economic sense. Those who are fired must be those who do not show up regularly or do not work. I guess the TWU figures if it had more slackers, SEPTA would have to hire more workers, and it would collect more dues.
Aren't these guys covered by the Taylor Law, or do they have an LIRR type deal which allows them to strike? The last time the TWU struck in NYC, the fines nearly bankrupted the union. The LIRR, in contrast, strikes every contract.
You are correct. From what I understand, not too many are fired anyway, but most of those who don't make the cut have one of two problems - they don't like the shiftwork often involved with transit, and they can't stay sober/drug-free. Any job has a probationary period for just the same reason - you need an opportunity to be able to evaluate an employee under on-the-job conditions. This isn't anything new or radical.
SEPTA's workers have the right to strike. After this one is over, the discussion will once again focus on whether this should be prohibited, as happens after every SEPTA strike. The problem is that, both now and in '95, the region isn't at a standstill. It's darn inconvenient and traffic is hellish, but people are getting around. The longer the strike lasts, the more folks will develop other transportation habits which don't include SEPTA. Fewer patrons will lead to service cuts which lead to fewer runs which result in fewer operators needed. How does TWU help itself in this scenario? The lack of disaster due to the strike will not support the argument that SEPTA workers should not be able to strike due to high risk, public health/welfare, etc. It just hasn't happened.
By the same token, TWU is fighting part-time workers. UPS hires part-timers and they must join the union. Why can't TWU represent part-timers? Would there be more opportunities for new members, since more part-timers would be hired? This is why I find TWU's position hard to follow.
By the way, they're still out (day 4), there are no talks, and the news media has bumped the strike from page 1 and top story.
Have the TWU goons committed any acts of sabotage on the remaining modes of transportation yet, like they did in 1995? I remember two real whoppers:
1) Blocking regional-rail stations with crowds of strikers, then dispersing as soon as lawfully ordered to, then assembling at another station to do the same thing, etcetera, ad infinitum, ad nauseam.
2) Driving three-abreast at about 30mph on a major expressway during morning rush-hour.
The only act directly attributable to TWU is picketing at 69th St on Tue 6/2, effectively stopping service on most ex-Red Arrow routes until about 11 AM. This hasn't been repeated. I think part of the reason for no encore is the reaction that riders had toward the pickets. News reports were that there was some shouting back and forth, and general displeasure on the part of the stranded riders.
Yesterday (Fri) a couple of supervisor jeeps had windows shot out with BB guns at 63rd & Market, and there was a power problem on the Norristown High Speed Line, but neither can be directly blamed on TWU just yet.
TWU has said that it will picket a new shuttle instituted between Elm St/Norristown station (R6) and King of Prussia Plaza, a replacement for Frontier bus route 99 (which usually calls at the N'town Transportation Center). The shuttle is being served by ex-Red Arrow drivers and buses.
The pickets have rallied at City Hall and razzed the Republican Convention selection committee but nothing too stupid has happened yet. Of course, this group is quite capable of bone-headed acts.
They were inconveniencing people who weren't even using SEPTA.
This morning behind 30th St. a group of picketers was in the middle of 31st St. rallying(somewhat).
Is that BB gun still available?:)
"Region not at a standstill." Maybe not, but only because Central City is disapperaing as a part of the region. For the last week (for my own amusment, I've been getting the 1990 journey to work data for whatever region's consider their "Downtown." The results are interesting:
You have Manhattan, with 1.8 million workers, where only 18 percent arrived by auto (drive alone plus carpool).
You have several other cities -- Chicago, Boston, San Francisco, Toronto, and Philly so far -- with 250,000 (Philly) to 500,000 (Chicago) workers and 40 to 50 percent arriving by car.
Then you have the typical "Downtown" in a prosperous region -- about 100,000, like Dallas of Denver, with more than 75 percent arriving by auto.
Bottom line, no transit no real Downtown. Since the auto uses so much land for parking and roadways, 100,000 to 200,000 is about the most people you can pack into one place using cars.
And no Downtown, no transit. The thing about mass transit is, for it to cover more than 20 percent of its costs, there has to be a mass, and Downtowns represent the mass. Aside from Downtowns, transit is a welfare program and museum for transit buffs. TWU strikes and SEPTA rusts, Center City shrinks. Center City shrinks, SEPTA rusts. Etc. Not good.
In Phillys all-out attempt at bringing the either Democratic, and/or Republican conventions to the area in 2000, it seemed interesting that the union chose Ed Rendell... Go to Hell... for their protest... as the RNC site selection members were arriving in Philly. The TWU said it does not mean to hurt the city's chances with winning the convention, but to add pressure to Rendell.
While I understand their position, if Philly looses for any reason, I think a lot of blame will be absorbed by the union in this case. True, it was commented that the site collection committee was unaffected by the strike (they got a private trolley ride) - it can't be good.
Since the online portion of the Inquirer and the Daily News are so extensive, go to the homepage (www.phillynews.com) and click on strike watch. (I tried to get the link, but network traffice must be heavy now...)
Denver has launched an all-out effort to host the DNC in 2000. And there's a light rail stop right in front of the Convention Center to boot!
SEPTA strike or no SEPTA stricke, Philadelphia's chances of getting the 2000 RNC convention are NIL! I predict that both conventions will be held in Chicago. One of Mayor Daley's big goals is to land the RNC convention. Daley usually gets what he set's his sight's on.
Remember what happened back in 1968 during the DNC? The elder Mayor Daley issued shoot-to-kill orders to the cops to quell the disturbance, if I recall.
If they wanted to be sentimental, they could hold the convention(s) at the International Amphitheatre, where the DNC was held in '68. I've been there; I'm surprised it's still standing.
I thought, using the Republican mindset, that Phila with no transit would appeal to the decision makers. ?
Good point... and they probabaly like the Democratic mayor getting razed... still though, it can't bet good.
One point for BobW. The Republican's have never been a friend of mass transportation. However, the Limousine Liberals pay only lip service also. Remember, Bill Clinton’s 1999 budget cuts $$ to mass transit.
The only project's that seem to get money are the one's that benefit the political machine. Whether they benefit the rider or not.
I'm pretty mad about the transit cuts as well. Transit-oriented areas should pursue the elimination of all federal transports spending. You pay for your highways, we'll pay for our transit, and we'll cut out the middleman in Washington.
However, the "hidden" spending of the increased TransitChek will be a boon. The problem with transit spending is that (unlike most forms of White Welfare) it has never been a hidden, back door, off the books subsidy. Now we're getting ours.
When Reagan was President we knew what to expect from the White House. His definition of Mass Transit was two couples going to dinner in one Cadilac. Why would you need to fund that?
This administration was a bit disapointing though, but Arkansas does not have a strong transit tradition, (The Arkansas Transit Association is cool though. Their marketing slogan for the bus systems was "Ride the Damn Bus")
The industry does not help much either. A few years ago the General Manager from Boston told a house committee that operating assistance was a rounding error for the MTA.
The message needs to be sent that transit is perhaps the only alternative to congestion. We've finally learned the lesson that the solution to roadway capacity constraints is not more lanes but more efficient use of the lanes that are there. This means that no new vehicles can enter the mix and those out there need to increase the number of people they move.
As always, politicians, whether liberal or conservative, want to solve problems without new taxes. We have TEA 21 which basically takes user fees and can address the problems without additional tax burden. The real solution seems to be, unfortunately, that the regions that want better transit may need to find ways to raise their own funds to match scarce federal dollars. The only alternative is to get our representatives over the last hurdle of the congestion solution, i.e transit is where the investment should be made.
You are correct that sometimes transit is its own worst enemy. In Phila, SEPTA is always seen as spending large amounts on the Regional Rail system, which carries suburbanites (of course, this is a little different with the strike currently on) who tend to be more affluent than the transit riders in the city, and the spending amounts per passenger are quite high. Thus, SEPTA gets the reputation of "gold plating" projects which are really just infrastructure preservation and investment protection. Instead of trying to stress this point, SEPTA falls victim to the political part of the debate and usually loses.
Are you beyond positive that R-110b's only ran on the 'A'? I think I saw one @ Union Square on the N/R once. I've lived in this town for 12 years and know an R-110b when I see it and unless the mind plays tricks at 22, I think that's what I saw.
They tested it on diferent lines (without passengers), and also displayed it at different places, including on the N/R line.
Does anyone have information on the fare structure for these future MetroCards? I've seen the subway ads announcing their arrival this summer. I've seen lots of speculation (~$60 / month). But I've heard very little concrete information on this. Can anyone supply a good reference for this info?
Thanks.
Francis,
Time based MetroCards: 1 rider/unlim/clock starts 1st use
____type____________cost____compare
1. 24 hrs__________4.00 vs.__2 rides______= 3
2. 7 days_________17.00 vs.__5 X 2 X 1.50 = 15
3. 30 days Local__63.00 vs. 20 X 2 X 1.50 = 60
4. 30 days Exp___120.00 vs. 20 X 2 X 3.00 = 120
so these unlim ride cards aren't for everyone.
Value based, regular, MetroCards:
1. Pre-made @ 3, 6, 20(+2), 30(+3)
___Plus is "Bonus" money that is used FIRST
2. U decide value, for 20, 30 etc. get bonus value too.
Value based, LIRR, MetroCards, celandar month (Mail-N-Ride):
1. 30.00(+3) OK to continue to use MC aft mo end
2. 60.00(+6) $ remaining mo end = U loose
Time based, LIRR, MetoCard/Mail-N-Ride, celandar month:
1. 63.00, unlim rides & @ mo end pay 10.00 to get refund
P.S. Eye don't work for MTA or any or it's divisions,
so use the above with my disclaimer.
Francis,
Time based MetroCards: 1 rider/unlim/clock starts 1st use
____type____________cost____compare
1. 24 hrs__________4.00 vs.__2 rides______= 3
2. 7 days_________17.00 vs.__5 X 2 X 1.50 = 15
3. 30 days Local__63.00 vs. 20 X 2 X 1.50 = 60
4. 30 days Exp___120.00 vs. 20 X 2 X 3.00 = 120
so these unlim ride cards aren't for everyone.
Value based, regular, MetroCards incl up to 4 customers,
each swipe deducts the fare & incl up to 4 Transfers:
1. Pre-made @ 3, 6, 20(+2), 30(+3)
___Plus is "Bonus" money that is used FIRST
2. U decide value, for 20, 30 etc. get bonus value too.
Value based, LIRR, MetroCards, celandar month (Mail-N-Ride):
1. 30.00(+3) OK to continue to use MC aft mo end
2. 60.00(+6) $ remaining mo end = U loose
Time based, LIRR, MetoCard/Mail-N-Ride, celandar month:
1. 63.00, unlim rides & @ mo end pay 10.00 to get refund
P.S. Eye don't work for MTA or any or it's divisions,
so use the above with my disclaimer.
This is based on the official training material:
1- Daily Unlimited $4.00- good till midnight . Starts when you swipe the first time in a turnstile or bus.
2- Weekly $17.00- Seven days from first swipe. The day you swipe the first time is day 1. If you buy it August 1 and use it for the first time on August 15 the card expires at midnight on August 21- the seventh day.
3- Monthly $63.00 (local bus & subway) or $120.00 (Express or local bus & subway). 30 days from first use. Here again time does not start until the first swipe. (a day ends at midnight).
For LIRR and Metro North there is a monthly Mail & ride Monthly which is coded Plus -2 which is the same as the $63 pass,
You can not add money to these cards and you can not refill.
NOTE: if you swipe the first time at 11:59 pm that is the first day!
I hope this answers your question
(Note to subtalk posters)- I *am* a Station Agent for NYCT.
When will these passes be available? I'm dying for one!!!
As you said, these aren't for everyone. But its a god-send for anyone who uses the subway to get too and from work as well as on the weekends and evenings.
I live less then a 10 min. walk from West 4th St., Brodaway Lafayette, Prince St., and Spring St. stations. The subway is very convenient for me, but I easily spend over $80 a month on it now. I know I'll use the subways and busses a lot more if it's not costing me extra for each ride.
You're not alone. In my case, you can't beat four bucks for a daily unlimited pass. After three rides, it pays for itself. It brings back memories of the good old days of the 50-cent fare. Or 35 cents, or 30; heck, I still remember the 15-cent fare. My folks rememeber when it was a dime.
Here is the latest official info I have :
The weekly and monthly (both kinds of monthly- $63 local bus & subway and the $120 local bus, express bus, subway) will start 7/4/1998.
The daily will start "later".
(The time baased cards will ***NOT** show how much time is left. The turnstile will beep once and the word "GO" will appear.
***the following section is personal opinion and not that of MTA or NYCT***
While it will be an initial headache in the booth, it should hasten the end of the token, and as such then the job will be easier. I see a big learning curve for transit and passengers, many passengers will be unhappy when they can not mix time (weekly, monthly,etc.) and value ($15,$30,etc.) or when they try to refill a time based (weekly, monthly, etc.)card and we tell them "no". They already complain when we refuse $100.00 bills! or tell them to "please unfold your money to speed yout trip.". If I did not work for NYCT I would buy the monthly since it eliminates the line and no worry about how many rides are left.
Subway-buff,
I agree about the headaches while the customers are in a learning curve.
So many customers use the "reader" because they either don't know how much money is left on their cards or don't trust the agent (check right after his/her action). I use 2 X 1 1/2 post-it which I update after each use (i'm an infrequent user).
On buses there's no way to tell until U dip the card. This is even more of a problem for folks in LI who ride buses & have even less options (to read value balance).
Another problem area relates to LIRR/Metro-North customers where the Zero & $ 33 cards CAN be used past the end of the month OR traded into a new card, BUT the $ 63 card & $ 66 (unlim) cards died at mo end.
P.S. Oh for the good-old-days, we still get 1.25 tokens on buses.
Mr. t__:^)
The June edition of MTA New York City Transit's newsmagazine TRANSIT TRANSIT has a very nice piece on the unlimited passes.
Visit their website for a mostly accurate broadcast schedule.
Mike
May I also add this was last year(April '97).
The R110b's ran on the "C" for a few weeks or months, I am not positive. They had a problem with a compressor on one of the units. The train ran as a six car train on the "C" between 145 Street and Euclid Avenues. After it's last run it deadheaded up to 207 Street, and relayed into the Yard. It was returned to the "A"
FYI the R110B was testing on the Sea Beach North Bound Express track, before being put into passenger service. It now rests in 207 St. Yard OUT of service indefinitely
Why is it out of service? and what will happen to it?
The R110A's are out of service due to cracked trucks
The R110B's are out of service due to braking problems, but this unconfirmed
R110 conductor indication boards are installed around the ind/bmt division wide since conductor's position on this model train is at alternate positions. this train is tested on various lines
This must have happened years ago, but I never noticed it untill now. I used to go to the Van Sicklen station in Brooklyn on what is now the F line (but back then was the D line). It is now called the Neptune Avenue Station, perhaps because there is another station with a similar name -- Van Siclen Avenue, on the 3 line. Does anyone know when the name was changed?
Correction; Van Siclen Ave on the J/Z line in Brooklyn.
I have a 1967 Map that shows a Joint identification of "Neptune-Van Sicklen" for the "F" (former "D",former "Culver") station.
Incidentally there is a "Van Siclen" (at Fulton) on the "J",
a "Van Siclen " (at Pitkin) on the "A",
and a "Van Siclen" (at Livonia) on the "2" of 1967, which has been promoted to the "3" these days.
"Van Sicklen" was the old town name for that area of Brooklyn. The station name was doubly confusing because there is a Van Sicklen Street nearby, but not at the station. re-naming it "Neptune Avenue" made sense. This may have been the only transit station to have retained it's old "town" name for so long. On the SIRT, the opposite has always been the case. All the stations except Jefferson Avenue have town names, not local cross streets as identifiers.
Thanks for the History lesson.
I've got to pull up a street map of Brooklyn. It seems to me that VanSiclen Ave was a street that we commonly travelled when Dad got rich enough to buy a 1937 Plymouth in 1952. I can't remember why we took this street.
There still are a few stations with "town names":
Brighton Beach and Sheepshead Bay on the Brighton line are the most obvious examples. Also Cypress Hills, Howard Beach, Woodlawn (actually a cemetary), and a couple of parks (Prospect Park, Pelham Bay Park). Not to mention RR stations and public buildings (City Hall, Borough Hall, Grand Central, World Trade Center nee Hudson Terminal).
Didn't the stations along the Rockaway Peninsula have "town names" also? Do they still?
Yes, the Rockaway peninsula stations still have the old town or place of interest names:
- Beach 105th - Seaside
- Beach 96th - Playland (Long gone now))
- Beach 90th - Holland
- Beach 67th - Gaston
- Beach 36th - Edgemere
- Beach 25th - Wavecrest
- Far Rockaway - Mott Avenue
A few others:
- Morris Park (Dyre 5)
- E 177 St - Parkchester (6)
- Bowling Green (4,5)
- South Ferry (1/9)
- Cypress Hills (J/Z)
- Most stops along the Queens Blvd IND Line end with neighborhood names
--Mark
Van Sicklen Street isn't so nearby anymore; I don't think it starts until Ave X and it ends at Kings Highway (don't have a Brooklyn map handy to confirm). However, in that area, behind the McDonalds on the corner of Neptune & W 6 St, there is a Sheepshead Bay Road that runs for about a short block and a half! And if you look real hard from the Neptune Ave F platform in the "yard" behind the new apartment house that went up recently (facing west), you can still find trolley tracks that used to connect to those under McDonald Ave. Was there a trolley terminal of some kind there?
--Mark
Mark:
I assume that your not talking about the big “West 5th Terminal” that sat on the north side of Surf and was
accessed by tracks on Sea Breeze and 2 different P.R.O.W.s running North/South from the south side of
Neptune and served “Coney Island Ave.”, “MacDonald Ave.”, “Smith/Ninth” PCCs and even “Franklin
Ave.” cars in the summer. This facility had shops and storage facilities north of it, in an area between
Neptune and shall we say the westward projection of W.Brighton Ave.
The “Sea Gate” trolley ran on Surf Ave. to W 8th where it turned north, zigged east south of Neptune,
until just about the projection of MacDonald( or was it Shell), zagged north again until Neptune, where it
zigged east again on Neptune passing both P.R.O.W.’s into “West 5th Terminal” and continuing past Coney
Island Avenue onto Emmons where it terminated at a Switchback just west of Ocean Avenue. The tracks
continued past the switchback and turned north onto Ocean Avenue where they passed the switchback used
by the “Ocean Avenue” car as a southern terminal.
Incidentally, the tracks on the western most P.R.O.W. out of the “West 5th Terminal” originally crossed
Neptune and joined MacDonald at just about Ave X.
This area is now so different from the pre-fifty era, and so much trackwork then, was on P.R.O.W. it hard to
describe without large scale maps from both eras in front of you. I’m thinking that the trolley trackwork you
are questioning relates to the former P.R.O.W.’s out of W.5th or the Zig-zag-zig of the Sea Gate Car. When
you think about the history of the early lines into Coney, it should not surprise you to find track remnants all
over the area.
Sorry for the spacing.I guess I better reset my margins if I intend to copy long posts from my word processor in the future.
Until the station rebuilds of 8 years ago, the station at Old Town Rd (it's the old 'Old Town') had signs for Old Town Rd. Now, they only say 'Old Town'
-Hank
> This may have been the only transit station to have retained it's
> old "town" name for so long. On the SIRT, the opposite has always
> been the case. All the stations except Jefferson Avenue have town > names, not local cross streets as identifiers.
There is Morris Park station in the Bronx (not located at Morris Park Ave.). Also Broad Channel station in Queens. Plus Brighton Beach and Sheepshead Bay in Brooklyn.
And I guess "Woodlawn" in the Bronx qualifies too, although that one is arguable; the "town" of Woodlawn is the area of the Bronx north of 233rd St., between Van Cortlandt Park E. and Webster Ave., a good distance from the station. Although there is no "Woodlawn Road" today, I believe there was at one time; it was the old name for Bainbridge Ave. I think the street was renamed just about the time the "Woodlawn" line was built.
Don't forget Cypress Hills ("J" line).
Also, the most recent maps tend to list the neighborhood
along with the station's street name at the route's
terminus (Rockaway Parkway - Canarsie; Metropolitan
Avenue - Middle Village), etc. This tends to make the
map more geographically "friendly"..
Both Wayne and Ed Sachs are right about the "Cyprus Hills" station on the J/Z line. It is named for the cemetery and not the road which crosses Jamaica Ave. near Crescent St. This is a little confusing since Cyprus Hills and Crescent St. are consecutive stops.
Woodlawn, I guess, now refers to Woodlawn Cemetary which surround the northern section Woodlawn Station on the #4 Line. There are no stores or homes on Jerome Av. north of Woodlawn Station because of the cemetary. Notice that our new "The Map" shows a community name at the last station before the E & F split in Queens, a place called "Briarwood." Does anyone in Queens say they live in Briarwood? The next station on the E is even more confusing. It's one of the system's newest stations with 24 hour entrances on both Metropolitan Av. at Jamaica Av. & at 89 Avenue at Van Wyck Blvd. So they call this station "Jamaica VanWyck." This sounds more like an address in California where folks omit words like "street" or "avenue." Meanwhile, nearby are other stations named VanWyck Boulevard, Jamaica Center and 179 St. Jamaica. So I'm sure this confuses out-of-towners no end. Since there once was a Metropolitan Av. station on the J line before the reconstruction project that merged the E with the J line in Jamaica, why not call this station 89-Metropolitan Avenues? (Like 71-Continental Avs.)
Yes, people in Briarwood refer to the area as Briarwood. Briarwood is a small part of Jamaica, just like Jamaica Estates is part of Jamaica too. For real estate, it looks better if a house is in Briarwood, than Jamaica.
Or, maybe another good name for it would be "89th Avenue-Jamaica Hospital". The subway entrance is smack dab in front of the hospital's front door.
By the way, that is one of the most attractive of the new stations - that was a novel idea with the skylights and cathedral ceiling. I have some good photos of it that I'll scan and maybe send
down the line to whoever's interested.
- Wayne -
Whenever there is a problem at Penn Sta. and there is no service between Jamaica and Penn, LIRR riders take the E to Jamaica. However, since they are not familiar with the area, many accidently exit at Jamaica-Van Wyck thinking that they are at the LIRR Jamaica station at the Van Wyck. Needless to say that some realize the mistake as soon as they exit the train and jump back on. When that happens, the others usually realize what is happening and try to make it back on the E. Some do, and others wait. I don't know what the one or two who don't realize they're at the wrong do when they realize what's going on. I'd love to see their faces though.
Don't forget that many of the old destination roll signs used geographic areas, not streets. For example:
R27/30 car signs said:
ASTORIA (not DITMARS BLVD)
CONEY ISLAND (not STILLWELL AVE)
Many car classes had signs to FAR ROCKAWAY, not MOTT AVE.
The old BMT standards had signs to CANARSIE, not ROCKAWAY PARKWAY.
And also - PELHAM BAY PARK station on the #6 is the name of the park and the neighborhood, but not a street (Pelham Parkway is close by, though).
Allso - WORLD TRADE CENTER on the E and C trains - not a street name, but certainly a specific location.
Also - SOUTH FERRY on the #1/9.
Another example of a station with a neighborhood rather than street name is Brighton Beach. Woodhaven Boulevard/Queens Mall is an interesting example, as it uses the name of a commercial establishment as part of the station name (true as well with World Trade Center and Rockefeller Center, but those are landmarks as much as commercial establishments).
F line Prospect Park station
Technically called "15th Street - Prospect Park";
Wall markings read "15th St". (Lovely shade of orange-yellow)
Couldn't you also say that "Borough Hall" is a sort of neighborhood
as well?
I did a little digging, and there are two stations that were formerly
named for areas, not streets:
- New Lots (on the 3) now reads "New Lots Avenue"
- Mott Haven (on the 4/5) now reads "138th Street"
If you notice, the mosaic icon here plainly reads "MH" and there are metal signs mounted over the tile marquees. This station's name was changed long, long ago, probably in the 40's or 50's.
What is a Mott, and why does he/she/it need a haven?
As far as I know, the "Mott" name derives from some Colonial-era settlers in the area. The "Haven" is used in the sense of a harbor, as with New Haven.
Mott the Hoople?
Said Mott was either a former mayor of NYC or a prosperous landowner (holdings in Brooklyn & Rockaway too). As for
his Haven, why, it's the neighborhood in the 10451 ZIP code, of course.
Areas versus streets is interesting - some Boston examples:
Red Line
Ashmont - neighborhood AND street
Shawmut - old name of branch line now rapid transit
Fields Corner - neighborhood and square
Savin Hill - neighborhood and street
Columbia/JFK/UMASS - street/points of interest
Andrew - square
Broadway - street
South Station - building
Washington/Downtown Crossing street/shopping District
Park, Charles - streets
Kendall, Central, Harvard, Porter, Davis - squares
Alewife - waterway
North Quincy, Wollaston, Quincy Center, Quincy Adams - neighborhoods
Braintree - town
Orange Line
Oak Grove, Malden Center - neighborhoods
Wellington - neighborhood/traffic circle
Sullivan - square
Community College, North Station - buildings
Haymarket - square
State - street
Chinatown/Essex - neighborhood/street
New England Medical Center - building
Back Bay - former body of water
Massachusetts, Ruggles - streets
Roxbury Crossing - neighborhood(rr crossing gone for 100 years)
Jackson Square - fictional square
Stoney Brook - waterway buried in culvert beneath tracks
Green - street
Forest Hills - square
Blue Line
Bowdoin - street/square
Government Center - "neighborhood"
Aquarium - building
Maverick - street/square
Airport - what else?
Wood Island Park - neither wooded nor island nor park!
Orient Heights - neighborhood
Suffolk Downs - Race Track
Beachmont, Revere Beach - neighborhoods
Wonderland - Dog Track
This discussion reminds me of something I once read. It seems that in Japan, streets have no names -- it is the intersections and square that are named. After the U.S. occupied Japan in 1945, the Army found it could not make its way around Tokoyo, so it gave English names to all the streets. I wonder if those names are still there.
Anyway, perhaps the planners who mapped out Tokoyo returned to the U.S. and decided to change all stations named after areas to stations named after streets.
Personally, I prefer area names for stops in residential areas, or (if there is more than one station) street/area names -- 9th Street, Park Slope. Instead of Prospect Park 15th St and Fort Hamilton Parkway we'd have Prospect Park Windsor Terrace and Windsor Terrace south. In large commercial areas, street names are better. You can't have 30 stations called Midtown.
New York is a bit illogical in the way it uses area names for subway stations. With relatively few exceptions, only terminals have area names. That is largely irrelevant as presumably most of the people riding a line to its terminal are regular riders and are fully aware of the area name. Putting area names on some line stations, especially in Manhattan, would be useful for tourists and others - for example, designating Prince Street on the N and R as Prince Street-Soho. Obviously there would have to be limits, but in certain cases area names would help.
Chicago used to mark the destination signs of train cars with some of the "destinations" being real destinations/ends of the line, like Howard, Skokie Swift, O'Hare, while others were not termini at all but the route itself, like Congress, Douglas, Lake, Dan Ryan, Jackson Park.
When they decided to use the line colors (already on the maps and some destination signs for years) as the actual names of routes, they made the signs consistent. Now, the sign shows the actual name of the terminal station of that train run, which is especially handy on trains that don't travel the whole route -- there are a fair number of "To Rosemont only" trains on the O'Hare-bound direction of the Blue Line, for example, and without such a sign, many people would board for O'Hare though the train is going to stop short of there.
As the same time, CTA changed some terminal stations from street names to area names, specifically where the "area" is a suburb. Rosemont is the suburb where the last Blue station before O'Hare is, and the line yards, but the station used to be called River Road, for the street the station faces. Forest Park is the name for the terminal of the old Congress Branch of the Blue Line, and another line yards, but used to be called Des Plaines Avenue.
The May, 1998 map shows another identity crisis:
75th Street on the J liner is signed "Elderts Lane" at the station. Also the Van Wyck Station on the F is now Briarwood/ Van Wyck and Union Turnpike is now Kew Gardens/ Union Turnpike. 63rd Drive is now 63rd Drive/ Rego Park.
All these will be discussed on my forthcoming E, F and J pages for NYCsubway.org
Today I took one of the more pleasant - and unusual - rides to be found on New York-area commuter rail. The LIRR's 8:14 train from Jamaica to Long Island City doesn't have a locomotive on the rear end, so one can stand on the rear platform and look out the rear door opening, fully open except for a few safety chains. Doing so affords an up-close view of the tracks probably not found anywhere else. The trip through Forest Park was a highlight, as was passing along the narrow, building-lined right of way through Glendale. In a way, the LIC line's "stately" pace adds to the enjoyment.. Even the dreary industrial districts on the western part of the line seem a bit les dreary from this perspective.
At any rate, as was noted on a Prodigy bulletin board (which I used to frequent until Prodigy's network underwent a meltdown in many parts of the country!), the eventual arrival of the bi-level diesel coaches will put an end to this practice, so take the opportunity while it's still possible.
Peter,
I have been on the 8:14, but have never ridden the the last car. I think I'll take your recommendation while it's still available. The ride thru Forest Park is quite different than anywhere else in the city. The trip thru the industrial area is something out of a WWIII nuclear holocaust movie complete with deserted ruins. It's hard to believe that once this area had factories full of people. I try to locate where the Glendale, Freshpond, Haberman, Penny Bridge stations were. By the way have you ever noticed the remains of the old wooden trestle which was part of the old Rockaway line. If you are heading towards LIC, on the south side, just before the baseball field after Union Turnpike, and on the north side, it's just past the large open parking area filled with trucks (they look like they are from the street construction department) after Union Turnpike. The row from the Rockaway line is very overgrown with trees and difficult to see. I would guess the view from the back of the train would improve this.
Peter,
I was on the 8:28 today with the same configuration. It's a interesting ride from back there. A couple of other riders pointed out some other unusual sights including the chicken factory, several homeless people and their homes, the asbestos warning sign on that abandoned factory. Regards.
Does anyone have a recent listing of destination signs thank you Please call Steve 914 668 9218
If anyone hasn't heard already, DB Inter City Express train 884
from Munich to Hamburg derailed at about 11:00AM on June 3rd.
I think the body count is at about 100 right now.
(Check the CNN website)
As of today Thursday June 4, at 1:55 a.m. edt, the lastest death toll is still at 100.
Updates to come as i get more info.
Charlie Muller
As of 5am Thursday June 4, on WCBS radio they are still saying the latest death toll on the train wreck is still at 100.
Charlie Muller.
The confirmed death toll of the Germany Train crash is at 95.
Charlie Muller.
Charles:
If you can get the NYTimes on the net, there is an "International" story that seems to be pointing to a broken wheel or track damage a couple of miles before the bridge.
Marty,i did see that later on friday. i forgot to tell everyone here on subtalk. I logged off my computer cause my relief came in to let me go home. I work at the Associated Press on the 12am to 8am shift. I do not put my e-mail address cause i can get into trouble from my job.
Charlie Muller.
Update on the Germany train wreck, as of today Saturday June 6, death toll is at 100. Investigators said a broken wheel was the most likely cause of the wreck.
Charlie Muller.
On the German train wreck as of 4am saturday june 6, the death toll is now at 101. This includes 5 people who died at a nearby hospital.
Charlie Muller.
Have you seen anything else from the engineer?
I went back last night and did see this....but it was very early in the reporting..........
From the New York Times - Thursday
"I saw nothing on the tracks as I went under the bridge," said the driver, who survived unharmed. His name was not immediately released. "Then there was a vibration. Then the automatic brakes came on," he told German television.
The brakes came on, railway officials said, because the locomotive had been severed from the rest of the 1,200-foot-long train. It sped alone unscathed for hundreds of yards along the
tracks until it came to a halt.
With all due respect he said he saw nothing under the bridge. When you go that fast, its' hard to see anything unusual.
I certainly agree Bill.
I was only trying to find the reference that suggested "the Air Dumped". There has been some talk claiming it did not, and that he was flagged. I question if he would have seen and understood a flagging at 125mph.
For those who saw, (i did on Tuesday June 2, 1998), and will see the movie Godzilla a subway question.
At which subway station was a trap set to snare Godzilla.
A- 42nd Street Station.
B- 23rd Street Station.
C- Charlie's Gas Station.
Answer at 8am Thursday June 4.
Charlie Muller.
For those who saw Godzilla, i did on Tuesday June 2, 1998, and those who will see it, a subway question.
At which subway station was a trap set to snare Godzilla.
A- 42nd Street Station.
B- 23rd Street Station.
C- Charlie's Gas Station.
The answer is B- 23rd Street Station.
Charlie Muller.
it was 23rd street
Mike you are correct. The answer is 23rd Street Station where a trap was to snare Godzilla. As we know Godzilla escaped to wreck further damage on the Big Apple. As they said in Godzilla 85, that is some urban renewal plan they have there.
Charlie Muller.
How do they get the cars on all 3 tracks?I know they use #6 line equipment so i assume they come from Lex Ave.,but what about the track to the farthest to the right???how do they get the train there?
Look at the Track Maps.
Specifically the 42nd St. Area Detail.
-Dave
Track 4, the former northbound local track on the original mainline, connects directly to the uptown local track on the 7th Ave.-Broadway line. Walk to the walkway connecting the platforms at the western end of the Times Square shuttle platform and you'll see a metal footbridge across that track. The track continues on and merges with the uptown local track in the tunnel. When they want to move a train, the footbridge is temporarily removed.
BTW, you can plainly see the original track alignment as opposed to where the 7th Ave. line is tied in. You will also note that the original Times Square station was built as a local stop - somethimg which was grossly overlooked when the original line was designed.
Tom,
I think Steve B's reply sums it quite well, i.e. #4 track (northern most) is a IRT 7th Ave train while track 1 & 2 are backed in off Lex Ave. downtwn. Therefore #4 track is one train set while 1 & 2 are two.
Come down a 7th Ave Exp & U can C the cross-over track beds or stand on metal bridge & look North on 7th Ave.
Mr t__:^)
One observation: on the shuttle, tracks 1, 3, and 4 are the ones in use. Track 2, the original southbound express track, is not in service. Its trackway is filled in at both stations, although I believe the rails are still in place in the tunnel beneath 42nd St. Tracks 1 and 3 are connected by switches, although some forward-backward maneuvering is required to get a train to and from track 3. There is no physical connection between tracks 3 and 4.
If you will observe the platform at track one you will see some angular metal pieces near the ceiling. This is the location where track 2 was. (look at any IRT rectangular tunnel for the angular metal pieces.)
Yes, at Times Square, you can see those angular pillar braces where the trackway was filled in to make a platform. The other obvious clue is the 5-foot spacing of the I-beams; this was never done on station platforms. Speaking of angular braces, you can also see them in BMT tunnels and stations along the Broadway and Canarsie lines, and, in some places, on the IND. There is a stretch along Central Park West where the I-beams have angular braces.
If I use a metrocard do I only get one transfer. Say, I go from a subway to a bus to another bus. Does this work ?
Also if I go from one bus to another bus or subway, will this transfer only work at certain transfer stops (I mean where the two lines are meeting). For example, can I use a bus for a certain distance and get out, walk a few blocks away and take another bus or subway at some stop (that stop not being a typical transfer point) and still get the transfer ?
The MTA Web page on Metrocard Gold Transfers explains it best.
bfbyrne,
1st there are three kinds of Transfers:
1. MetroCard U get when U pay a fare on bus or subway
2. "paper" actually paper w/mag strip, U get on bus if U pay cash
3. "block" the long pink thing U get when subway dwn
a. For 1 & 2 U got 2 hrs to use in another direction (basically that means if U on N/S use on E/W, or vice versa) but NOT subway to subway. So bus to bus, bus to sub, sub to bus. AND even subway to Express bus, that's called "step up", i.e. U paid 1.50 but fare is 3 so U got to pay 1.50 more.
b. Block is good on bus that travels the same route as subway, but not on another subway, i.e. if Lex is dwn U can't walk over to Broadway and continue your trip.
Disclaimer: Eye don't work for TA or any of its divisions.
Mr t__:^)
block ticket is good for 3 days on any TA train or bus line.
Dread, That's very interesting ....
We get Block and Sr/Disabl paper some of which is quite old, for a while we had a counterfiter who even used a highlighter to make them look real.
But my personal experience was on the 1/9 a couple of times when I walked dwn from 116 (the bues were packed and it was a nice evening) It made no difference whether I tryed to get back on the 2/3 at 96th or the IND A/B/C/D the agent gave me a hard time.
Mr t__:^)
There is another type of transfer that many people may not know about, it is only issued on buses. Before becoming a TA Conductor I was a TA Bus Operator in Brooklyn.
I am not sure of it's offical name but it was call a continuation ticket. When a bus was making a trip that ended short of the main terminal, at the short terminal the driver could enter a code in the fare box and issue a transfer that was good for 30 min and would be accepted by the following bus going to the main terminal. It was the same paper w/Mag. strip tranfer but it was encoded to work on a bus on the same line.
Is Philadelphia's transpass the only one of it's kind. All other farecards I know of have a set amount on them then you must get a new one. With the transpass, the only limit is time.
You can only use it in the stated week and if riding the subway or El, cannot use it at the same station twice in 30 minutes. Otherwise, as long as it's in the city, ride to your hearts content.
What's the deal?
(And Trailpasses are even better!)
Jack, refer to the series of threads that ran within the past two weeks that compared fare plans in the various cities. I think the conclusion was Boston has the best deal in the USA. Incidentally, the Philadelphia Transpass idea was hatched at the ‘T’ when Mr. David Gunn was the GM there. He, or his cohorts in management, brought the idea along with them when he became the GM at SEPTA in the early 1980’s.
In this country, it is unique to only Boston and Philadelphia, as far as I know. In Europe, however, the one pass for all transportation is common. And as we know, they do everything right in Europe in terms of transportation.
I think San Francisco has a universal pass which is good on Muni, BART, AC Transit, etc. Anyone care to clarify?
Check this site for information on all transit available in the San Francisco Bay Area, including info on the various Passes. Links are also provided to all transportation agency home pages. There are Passes which combine BART value and also work on other Bay area transit as well. These are targeted to the commuter.
After spending a week in San Francisco last January, I can say that if you are going to be moving about within the city itself, then the MUNI Visitor Passports are the way to go. UNLIMITED travel on everything but BART. (Use BART to get back and forth ($2.25 each way) from SFO Airport to the Market St. Stations. Right now you have to take Sam Trans Express Bus 3X from the airport to the Colma BART station-$1. An extension to the airport is under construction.) Considering that rates for the cable cars are one-way only (everyone has to exit at each terminal), if you ride the cable cars more than a few times during the week, you have the price difference between the regular MUNI pass and the Visitor Passport covered.
Info from the MUNI website:
"The San Francisco Municipal Railway's PASSPORT offers UNLIMITED travel on San Francisco's world-famous transit system, as well as offers discounts to many of the City's best known attractions. Ride streetcars, buses, and cable cars as many times a day as you wish with your PASSPORT.
"PASSPORTS are available for one day ($6), three days ($10), or seven days ($15) and become your ticket to easy travel on all of Muni's 1,000-vehicle fleet, including [busses, LRV/streetcars, historic Market St. PCC streetcars and] the internationally famous cable cars .
"Nearly 80 lines reach to every corner of the city. Since most major lines provide service every few minutes, travel time is kept to a minimum."
The passes have a Lotto-style scratch-off numbers for the dates. You scratch off the sequence of dates that the pass will be used; it is then flashed to the conductor, booth clerk or vehicle driver as necessary. WARNING: Be sure you have a pass, transfer or receipt from a fare machine. MUNI requires that customers carry "POP" (or proof of payment) starting Jan. 98, with the opening of the MUNI "E line" extension from the Market St./Embarcadero station, along the Embarcadero through South Beach and China Basin to the CalTrans Terminal at King St. Plainclothes SFPD officers were checking customers for POP on the MUNI and arrested the guy next to me for not having paid the fare.
The Historic Market St. PCC Streetcar is great. Rehabbed PCC cars, painted in livery to match transit systems in major cities, plies a route from the Embarcadero to 20th st. on the surface of Market St. For more info on Historic Market St. Railway.
Wait! There's more!! Transit may be expanding again in San Francisco!
"...The Third Street Light Rail Project proposes to replace the 15-Third Street bus line with a new light rail line on Third Street (similar to MUNI's existing E,J,K,L,M and N lines). The line would begin at the Bayshore CalTrain Station in Visitacion Valley, near the San Francisco/San Mateo County border and operate north along Bayshore Boulevard, cross Highway 101 and travel north along Third Street, through Bayview Hunters Point, the Central Waterfront area and Mission Bay to King Street.
"At King Street, as an initial phase, the line would connect to the Light Rail tracks already built on The Embarcadero, entering the Market Street Subway and continuing on the J-Church line.
"In the future, when the City is able to obtain federal funding, plans call for construction of a New Central Subway as the ultimate phase of the project. From King Street, the line would travel north on Third Street and south on Fourth, entering a subway between Bryant and Brannan and traveling underground along Third Street, crossing under Market Street and running underneath Geary and Stockton Streets, with a terminus at Clay Street in Chinatown. The planning and environmental work for the project is scheduled to be complete by August 1998, with construction beginning by early 2000. Target date for full operation of the initial phase is 2003....
"On June 23, 1998 the San Francisco Public Transportation Commission will decide whether or not to move ahead with the Third Street Light Rail Project. If the Commission decides to move ahead, it will resolve the remaining project design options at the same time...."
For more info on The Third Street Light Rail Project, including a map.
Yes, however, the pass doesn't include trips on CALTRANS. On MBTA and SEPTA regional rail is included. On these systems your pass is good on every route/vehicle.
In Chicago, the CTA monthly pass is good on PACE, but not METRA.
There is, however, a $36 monthly Link-Up Pass which any person with a Metra monthly pass can buy, which is good on all CTA and Pace lines, including rapid transit, during weekday rushhours (6:00 to 9:30 am and 3:30 to 7:00 pm).
You are correct, I always forget about the Link-Up Pass because I don't use it. Thanks for correcting my entry!
Milwaukee has a great tradition of "The Weekly Pass". Too bad they only have one mode to ride on. The rappid transit died in 1951 and streetcars in 1957.
There are several combinations of passes available in SF, but there doesn't seem to be one, all-encompassing card/pass. All a person can do is check the SF Transit Info Web site to find the pass combination that works best for them. There is an amazing amount of information listed on this 3 year-old site, including scans of area transit maps.
Be careful, Jack. There are several Regional Rail lines on which the Transpass is no good except on weekends. Anything Zone 2 or higher, which includes stops beyond East Falls on R6, most of the Chestnut Hill lines, and many others can't be accessed with a Transpass. Of course, as you noted, there's always the Trailpass.
The work goes on at the small town of Eschede, Germany recovering to lifeless victims of yesterday’s ICE wreck. I hope this accident does not setback High Speed train development in this country. This crash has been extremely difficult for the Germans, who pride themselves on the operation of their transportation systems. Anyone who has experienced this pride, something almost lost in this country, knows what I’m talking about.
I’ve ridden on the ICE trains several times, and can not image what when wrong. It is difficult to gain any insight as the reports fed to us by the press are not very technical. The intricacies of railroading has always seemed to be a little difficult for the press to grasp.
After saying a short prayer for those lost, let us hope that whatever caused this terrible tragedy doesn’t have an adverse effect on high speed rail.
I heard that the engineer continued on for a couple of kilometers (minus the rest of the train!) before someone else flagged him to stop. If cars uncoupled, shouldn't the air have dumped and stopped the locomotive?
That is the first thing that I wondered about - the air brakes should have "dumped" and stopped the engine dead. But, maybe the story about the stationmaster putting the emergency stop on the errant lead engine my be misinterpreted.
There seems to be some things that don't make sense about this wreck, however, as the investigation unfolds I'm sure the German's will be able to put the event's in order!
The Air Dumped but this guy called MO MENTUM has a lot to say with where the engine comes to rest and how flat the wheels get.
Marty - I understand the concept of momentum, I worked as a passenger trainmen for the Reading Company back in 1970. I realize that even a speed of 45 MPH a heavy MU train takes some distance to stop. However, all news accounts I’ve seen have been saying the Engineman was unaware that his train "pulled apart" and had to be stopped by the stationmaster. Not familiar with the details of European train operations, I can’t understand this statement. I do know though, that on almost all lines in Switzerland, the stationmaster is responsible for giving the "start signal" to the trains.
Jim
Iguess I agree with you when you say there is something fishy about this.
What accounts are you seeing that covers interviews with the Engineer? The ones that I've been seeing are very silent about statements from the engineer, which probably could be accounted for by big brother telling him to be quiet, if they think its an equipment failure.
Both CBS and CNN on-line news reported the "driver" was oblivious regarding his train separating. Also, last evening on CNN TV, the report about the stationmaster stopping the train came up again.
It is very early to tell exactly what happened, I remember that the first reports from Chase, MD were confusing also.
To be sure, the German's are going to be VERY careful about this. As I already noted, they take great pride in their systems. I'm sure the Swiss will be able to tell them what went wrong (smile).
While I do not know if it is of any relevance to this disaster, I do know that DBAG cut it quite close with the design of the ICE. The ICE is a high-speed train (280km/h), but the bogies are totally rigid and not really all that up-to-date. The train was originally intended to run on dedicated high-speed track, with a larger loading gauge, the Neubaustrecken. However, for political, finincial and practical reasons, these Neubaustrecken were not built as rapidly, nor as extensively as originally planned. In consequence, DB run (ran?) the trains at high speed on ordinary mainline track, which is not bad in itself by any means, but simply not dedicated high-speed track. This has led to problems with material fatigue and excessive wear on bogies, frames and wheelsets on the trains, as well as on the track.
On day while riding in the front of an LLIR (from Huntington) car the train-operator had his door opened and I watched what he did for a while. As the train reached a certain speed a ding/alarm went of and the operator pressed a button to silence the alarm/alert and at the same time swung the accelerator handle to the opposite side to stop acceleration and right after that went right back into full swing. Whats up with this alarm/alert... is this the LLIR's equivalent to a Trip if the alarm was not silenced and the operator failed to slow the train?
As I understand the LIRR system, the alarm tells the engineer several things. It tells him that his speed is in excess of what is permitted. It tells him of a change in signal aspect ahead. It even tells him that the crossing gates in front of him are up. On the speedometer, the engineer has several 'code' lights. If the 80 code light is lit, it means that the engineer can run at 80 MPH. If the code drops to 70 or 60, the bell will ring. The engineer must then 'answer' the bell and then slow the train to the appropriate speed. Sometimes the bell will ring when the train momentarally loses the code (sometimes due to wet rails). In that case, the engineer only has to 'answer' and if the code comes back, he keeps going. I'm sure that I've oversimplified the system.
those a the cab signals the lirr stopped using road side signals on some lines
There is a similar system on the MBTA commuter rail trains in Boston. A lighted button comes on every so often (45 sec. maybe?), and the operator will push the button to reset it. I don't think there is an alarm, at least not on 1500 series CTC's. I think it's strictly a sort of deadman timer, however -- no fancy speed codes or anything like that, as far as I know.
On the MBTA commuter rail, there is an audible sound. It's an increasing-pitch sort of "whoop." It is in all versions of the control cabs (1500, 1600, and 1700 series) as well as in the diesel engines (been there!). I believe it also serves as a deadman feature; the MBTA commuter rail control cars/diesel engines do not have a deadman on the throttle (watching out of the "front" window on the inbound side I've seen the engineer leave his operating position and cross over to the other side of the cab to retrieve something - while at full speed). If the engineer does not cancel the alarm after a certain amount of time, I believe it goes into emergency (I'll ask my conductor on the way home tonight to verify that).
No deadman's feature, huh? That sounds like a recipe for disaster.
All control units on any train operating in the USA must have a "dead-man" feature. Some of these might be simple, and some my be sophisticated (such as connected to CAB signal system), but they MUST be present.
I'm glad there is an audible alarm to awaken sleepy engineers. I have never heard it, but that's probably due to a combination of ambient noise, a closed storm door, and my own hearing loss.
I suspect that you may be rushing to get to Boston and may not see this until it is too late.
You may want to check out "Brooklyn Trolleys" by Watson and Greller, and "Confessions of a Trolley Dodger from Brooklyn" by Fischler if they are noy already in your collection.
They both have maps and phots of trolleys in the Coney Island area, and I have not really decided if there are minor differences between them in the Neptune Av area
t
Good idea! I'll check both these books out (I have 'em both!)
P.S. ... Boston Trolley Meet was pretty good. Green Line fantrip on Sunday 6/7 was fun. MBTA subway centennial LRV 3495 and PCC 3295 on the Green Line chasing one another. The LRV has a great paint job and a *really* nice centennial logo. Covered a goodly amount of Green Line trackage. Got a Riverside shop tour, too, and saw prototype low-floor type 8 no. 3800 (built by Breda) as well as a type 5 (number escapes me at the moment). 100 type-8s are supposedly on order.
--Mark
Glad you enjoyed yourself.
Probably 5734 for the Type 5.......My wife thought it was great fun whizzing through (thats a proper whiz) the tunnels with the windows open in that car.
Did you get any shots of the Centennial LRV. I was a disappointed in the pre-event coverage of the Centennial and regret missing it. Another big regret is not catching the shrink wrapped Gardner Museum advert on the LRV.
It just dawned on me that Joe Korman's "NY Subway System" Website, accessible through this sites "Transfe Station", has a section entitled "Don Harold's Pages" There are some great trolley shots of the Coney Island Area in these pages.
Yes, got some runbys of the LRV and a closeup of that neat looking logo. SOme cab views of the Green Line in the tunnel, too. Also a shot of the now-being-torn-down Boston Garden from the El.
And, yes, the type-5 was 5734.
--Mark
IVE LIVED ON THE L TRAIN LINE ALL MY LIFE AND I WANTED TO KNOW WHY DONT THEY ARRANGE SKIP STOP SERVICE ON THE LINE LIKE ON THE J/Z LINE
THE RIDE INTO MANHATTAN IS SO LONG AND BORING THAT ITS NOT FUNNY. AND THE TRAINS GET SO CROWDED THAT ITS UNBEARABLE SOMETIMES!!!!
In the early 1950s, before the IND Fulton St. line was extended to Lefferts Blvd., there was a rush-hour 14th St-Fulton St. line which ran from 8th Ave. to Lefferts Blvd. using the Fulton St. el east of Atlantic Ave. (using the lightweight multisection 1938 cars).
I believe that this service skipped all of the stops between Myrtle Ave. and Lorimer St.
However, since the 14th St. (L) line is only 2 tracks, it could not pass any local trains along the way.
But -- to change the subject --
In Chicago, the old Garfield Park L (now demolished, replaced in the 1950s by the Congress (blue) line which runs in the Eisenhower Expressway median) had only two tracks but did run some express sevice (Westchester trains and CA&E interurbans skipped many stations). There were crossover switches on each side of the Kedzie Ave. station which allowed an express train to pass a stopped local train by running on the wrong track. There was also a 3rd track at Gunderson station in Oak Park for passing.
Alas, like the Garfield Park L, the Westchester extension and the CA&E are long since gone.
While we're on the subject of Chicago...
On the Red line, there are crossover switches at Berwyn Ave.: from outer to inner track before the station, inner to outer track after the station in both directions. As far as I can tell, this is the only station where I've seen this. My theory is that these switches may have been used by North Shore trains running on the outer (Purple line today) track which wanted or needed to stop at Berwyn. Back in those days, there was a very famous hotel, the Edgewater Beach, at Sheridan Rd. and Berwyn; in fact, that station used to have signs which said "Berwyn-Edgewater Beach", which I remember, and older L maps showed that station simply as Edgewater Beach. I remember seeing that hotel in April of 1967, and saw it during its demolition in July 1970. It took over a year to tear it down; they finally finished in March of 1971. My aunt remembers a comment I made at the time about dropping a bomb on it (OK, I was 13 then) to speed things up.
P. S. Note to Transtech: no offense, but please turn off your caps lock. Leaving it on is the electronic equivalent of shouting.
The L Line lacks 2 things that the J/Z Lines have. The J/Z has a middle track and the possiblility of more than 1 terminal at each end of the line. The L line has neither.
But skip-stop only needs two tracks and both the J/Z and 1/9 are two-track in sections.
The TA proposed K/L skip-stop between Myrtle and Lorimer a few years ago, but it was dropped (along with the F exp from Jay-Church.)
I hope they do it a year from now when the Williamsburg bridge closes.
(As I just said in another post, the tunnel restriction that limits one train at a time is scheduled to be finished February.
The extra rush hour service on a given line is cancelled out when a skip stop service does not stop at your station. In other words, if a train on a 2 track line skips your station, your commute is actually longer since you have to wait for the next train. With the L line running time end to end being less than 40 minutes, running time saved will be negligable and psychologically satisfying, nothing else. Plus riders getting on at an "A" station & getting off at a "B" station will be required to change trains. This i s OK if you get on at Canarsie and get off in Manhattan, but not everyone rides all the way to Manhattan.
I HEARD ON THE NEWS NOT TOO LONG AGO THAT THE L TRAIN WILL BECOME THE FIRST LINE TO BE RUN BY COMPUTERS. WHEN WILL THIS HAPPEN????? AND WILL IT BE NEW SUBWAY CARS THAT WILL RUN OR WILL THEY JUST COMPUTERIZE THE OLD ONES??
Not quite true but close enough. The L line will get a new signal system, end to end. Actually there will be 3 systems competing for the contract. The CBTC (Computer Based Train Control) system will be able to identify the location of any train within 10 feet on straight track and within 25 feet on curved track. With such precise measurement, trains will be able to run closer together at greater speeds.
The CBTC will be installed on the R-143s (it will not be installed on the R-142s), however, it will also be installed on 12 R-42s for testing purposes.
Sorry guys. - I wanted to change the title and wasn't paying attention that I moved all the down to Post Message Button.
The problem that I have with Fischler's book is that the map ot the Coney Island Trolley Routes shows the Zig-Zag-Zig of the Sea Gate onto Neptune as ending at Coney Island Avenue. This is way too far east. My recollection is that this feature occured on the west side of MacDonald placing it to the west of the (Culver-->D-->F) El structure. The Greller/Watson book seems to agree with me, even to the projection of the P.R.O.W. across Neptune to the Avenue X area.
New York State's share of federal transport spending under NEXTEA: 5.1 percent.
New York State's share of U.S. population: 6.9 percent.
New York State's share of federal tax revenues: 8.1 percent.
No doubt the same ratios will apply as my tax dollars pass through Albany and City Hall. Will anything but a few pet projects for legislators be left for Brooklyn?
Funding Levels and New Funding Guarantee Mechanism - TEA 21 authorizes
$42 billion for transit programs in FY 1998-2003, $36.2 billion of which
falls within a new "funding guarantee" mechanism established in the Act
for both the federal highway and transit programs. Uniquely, Title VIII
of TEA 21 provides "offsets" in discretionary spending, which means that
the guaranteed annual levels are already "paid for" under congressional
budgetary rules. In short, the intention of this provision is to assure
that in each year's appropriations process the funds identified as
guaranteed for transit and highways are in fact made available for those
programs. An additional $6 billion in General Funds is authorized for
the transit program. To view the authorization levels, click here:
http://www.apta.com/govt/legis/tea21/authtab4.htm.
FY 1998
$4.844 Billion Already Appropriated
FY 1999
$5.316 Billion Guaranteed Transit Funding
FY 2000
$5.795 Billion Guaranteed Transit Funding
FY 2001
$6.272 Billion Guaranteed Transit Funding
FY 2002
$6.746 Billion Guaranteed Transit Funding
FY 2003
$7.225 Billion Guaranteed Transit Funding
Six-Year Total, FY 1998-2003
$36.2 BILLION GUARANTEED TRANSIT FUNDING
Reporting the funding received is the error that gets NYC's corrupt and vain politicians re-elected every year. They stand at the podium and announce every little grant as if they were paying for it out of their own pocket. And the grant receiving agency or interest praises them profusely. ITS MY MONEY DAMN IT, NOT Y0URS, AND IF YOU GAVE IT TO X YOU DENIED IT TO Y. IN NYC, EDUCATION AND TRANSPORTATION ARE Y!
The politicians will become home and take credit for the 62 cents on a dollar in taxes New York State will receive under NEXTEA. They won't mention the dollar. Cut my federal income tax, raise my local income tax by the same amount, and I guarantee more money would go to transit -- especially after 2001, when term limits wipes the current band of theives off the City Council and sends Rudy to rant elsewhere.
Does anyone have the info on this year's Lo-V trip?
The past two years, the railway preservation society has sponsored a day long trip on the IRT with the Lo-V cars covering the entire IRT mainline.
It might be a bit premature to assume there's another Lo-V fan trip this year. If there's one in the works, it usually isn't announced until sometime in August.
What surprised me a great deal was that there's no Nostalgia Train this summer. I usually count on one at the end of August. Anyone know why none was scheduled? (In fact, the museum tour list seemed to be on the "light" side this summer as compared to other seasons).
There is an ACMU 1100 Metro-North fantrip being scheduled by the NY Division ERA for Saturday August 1st on both the Hudson and Harlem Lines. I'll post details on this tomorrow (the form's at home; I'm at work now).
--Mark
I contacted SEPTA via e-mail to ask whether they'd honor NJT tickets and they said "no". NJT riders: buy SEPTA Ticket--in Philadelphia.(Round trip only)
I don't know who at SEPTA told you that, but I bought a round trip ticket from Trenton to Phila. at Princeton Jct. (without knowledge of what SEPTA told you). The conductor on the SEPTA train that I got on Fri night (June 5) coming back to Trenton said nothing as he took both of my NJT tickets (so either he didn't know about the no NJT tickets policy or whoever responded to your e-mail gave you wrong info).
Koi
On 26 Dec 1997 I observed an R32 on the "Q" line numbered 3348.
According to my records, R32 begins with unit 3350 and ends with
3949. Obviously, this car was renumbered. The number plaques
on the sides are different. It was paired with car no.3549. I did a
double and then another double take when I saw it. Any info on
what the original number was and/or why it was renumbered?
Also: Any cross-reference for R44/R46 old number to new number?
They are NOT (R46: old number + 4982 = new number) in sequence;
I have a few examples in my notes.
Car #3348 began it's career an car #3653 (I believe). Due to mishaps, the NYCT has 595 R-32s remaining of the original 600. Unfortunately, of the 595 there was one - too few Even cars and one too many odd cars so car #3653 was rebuilt as an even (converter) car. Since it would create a problem to give the rebuilt car the number of another car, it was decided that it would be given a 'unique' car #. Currently, only car #3620 is the only R-32 with no mate.
Thank you for the information! I have updated my master numbers book accordingly. I show only two R32 units as being wrecked:
3668 (Franklin SS accident 12/1/72) and 3629 (D line accident w/
AA train 4612 sometime in 1971).
Do you have the other three numbers so that I may annotate my
master numbers book accordingly? (I circle wrecks in red). I take it
that 3621 is one of these - I vaguely recall an accident on the "N"
south of De Kalb sometime in the early 80's - was that the one?
Also: What's with all these R32 "odd couples"? (i.e. 3548/3593,
3470/3919, 3658/3471 etc.) I have noted 17 of these pairings so
far. I can understand 3628 and 3669 (their mates wrecked, as noted
above), but I saw an "E" train on May 28 wihch had TWO "odd
couples" in it - 3740 with 3419 AND its mate 3741 with 3530).
Is there a reason for all of these "divorces" and "remarriages"?
If you'd like, I'll post what I have so far as a new message/response -
maybe there are others.
FYI - I saw "odd couple" 4460 and 4665 ("widow" and "widower")
on the "J" at about 9:15am on May 28 at Eastern Parkway. I took
a photo of the pair, but it's not good enough to become a jpg (dim).
We all know what happened to THEIR mates.
One correction, Car #3659 was converted to cat #3348 in July 1994 (not 3653). I anticipated your next questions but left the information on my desk. It'll have to wait until Monday or Tuesday before I can get the info to you. I'll E-Mail it to you unless there is interest from others. In that case, I'll post the info on the R-32 'bastard pairs'.
BTW - I saw car #4461 recently. It's well on it's way to being repaired.
please post the lists of mis-matched pairs. I am interested in the info too!
Glad to be of service! Here's the list - so far.
Only the eighteen pairs that I have seen personally or
have found out about via SubTalk are included here.
A COMPLETE list is forthcoming either Monday or Tuesday
and I will post what is not included here.
In ascending order by even-numbered unit: they are
as follows:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
R32 unit number
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3348 - 3549 (3348 - formerly 3659 - see other postings)
3382 - 3831
3420 - 3645
3444 - 3777
3470 - 3919
3502 - 3905
3530 - 3741
3548 - 3593
3558 - 3421
3600 - 3503
3628 - 3669
3650 - 3767
3658 - 3471
3740 - 3419
3776 - 3617
3830 - 3531
3862 - 3521
3918 - 3601
I show the following as either wrecked or destroyed:
3592, 3629, 3651, 3668, 3766.
3620 is permanently retired (see other postings for details)
3659 is now 3348 (ditto)
Other "odd couples" also exist in Slant R40, R40M and R42 land.
I have those too.
Thanks! Hope to hear from you again soon. Feel free to e-mail
me (WLWhitehorne@compuserve.com) Love those R32's!
Wayne,
Thanks for the info. If you could post whatever you've got in terms of scrapped cars in the current fleet, and scrapping/wrecked dates of older cars I'd love to have them for the roster pages. So far I'm putting in the stuff you've recently posted.
Thanks,
Dave
Dave,
I'd love to! However, I am going to have to go through ALL of
my master numbers books, plus my clippings, logs, etc. AND
I'm going to go through all the new tidbits of information that other
members have sent me. This will take me a day or so.
I have master numbers going back to R-10 and R-12. Please
let me go over all of my records and I'll give you what I have.
It won't be everything, but I think I have at least the most
noteworthy ones, going back to Dec.28, 1969. I have a few
yard accident casualties as well.
- Wayne -
Of course there was 1054 and 941 (pre-overhauled R-46s). They were destroyed when they hit the wall in the tunnel north of 179th St. in 1986. They were eventually sold as scrap to Morrison Knudsen.
Ditto for 215 and 315, I believe, pre-overhaul R44's.
I saw a photo in the news of 215 with her side ripped
clean when she hit the wall north of 59th St. while
switching. I think I saw 315 in the C.I. yard, gutted
by fire.
Maybe that explains the odd R44 bunch that contains
5316, 5317, 5318 and 5405?
5282's mates - where do they stand? Haven't seen
them since the big 135th Street wreck.
5319 was destroyed or shall I say melted a little over a year ago according to the story I received in the station a Far Rockaway. It seems there was a homeless fellow sleeping in a corner and a bunch of kids set him or the seat next ot him on fire. He was burned, I don't know how badly, but by the time the fire was put out, the car was destroyed on one end. There are a number of gutted R44's never overhauled. The last 2 cars overhauled were 5478& 79. There was nothing they could be coupled to. So they mixed them with 2 low 5400's . Then when 5319 was destroyed, they resurected 5405 with a lot of parts from 5319. That car as of last Sept. when I last visited 207 Yd. was there. I don't know what happened to 5282's mates.
Thank you for the information, Bill. This will make it into the master
numbers book right away. FYI - 5478/5479 are paired with 5403/5404.
I show a blank at 5402 - could THIS be the one that's taken 5282's place? Also, an odd bunch is 5246/7 and 5336/7, but all cars are accounted for.
Also - (put your Slant R40 hat on here) 4426 or 4427 - was one of these involved in a crash up at Dyckman Street in the 1980's
(I have a post on this from earlier in the week)?
Again, thanks for the information.
5402 thru 5405 were overhauled in house & coupled together. Then, 5402 & 5405 were for some reason removed from service and 5478 & 79 were added to 5403 & 04 , making 02 & 05 stored cars. Then 5405 replaced 5319. I don't know the condition of 5402 and I don't know if you can or can't replace 5282 with 5402 since 5282 was overhauled by M&K and 5402 was overhauled in house. Eventhough they can & do mix a 4 cars M&K set with a 4 car in house set, I don't know whether or not you can mix M&K with an in house on a 4 car set. I don't have any info on the collision you mention about 4426 & 27. Perhaps someone else knows.
What happened to the survivor cars from the IND derailment at 135/145 last July 4?- which cars were involved? Which numbers survive-current status, and which were cut apart (any salvageable parts or total junk)
Car #5282 was completely destroyed when it hit the pillars as
it derailed. The rear third of it was sheared off, much like what
happened to R62 #1437 in August, 1991 at Union Square.
News accounts and photos show workmen cutting this R44 into
four-foot sections, with salvageable parts (seats, light fixtures,
ad panels) stacked up against the tunnel wall in neat little piles.
My R44 expert (also a contributor) has informed me that
the other three (5283, 5285 and 5284) are currently orphaned. #5402
is also orphaned, and what would seem like a good marriage may be problematic due to the fact that the bunch 5282-5283-5285-5284 was remanufactured by Morrison-Knudsen and the bunch 5402-5403-5405-5404 was remanufactured by NYCT at 207th Street using slightly different methodology. #5405 has replaced #5319 in the 5318-(5319)-5321-5320
bunch due to the loss of the above to fire at Far Rockaway, with 5404
and 5403 forming the odd bunch 5404-5403-5479-5478. There's also another odd bunch: 5246-5247-5337-5336; however, all numbers are covered between; SOME of the R44 bunches' low numbers divide by four rather than only by two in the range. There are also two odd bunches in the R46 fleet: 5616-5617-6205-6204 and 5614-5615-6203-6202. I think
that at least one of these (the latter) were the cars involved in the accident near Steinway Street last fall; anyway, the damage to them was minor (G train even # car (6202?) had a slightly buckled floor, so I'm told)(my friend Pat at CI saw em) and I have seen all eight cars on the road at one time or another since then.
SAY- is there ANY cross-reference in existence that would tell me what
an R44 or R46's former number was? I know they don't go in order!
(R44 new = old + 5102; R46 new = old + 4982: NOT!)
P.S. the scanner hasn't arrived yet- hope to get it by Wed.
I haven't forgotten you.
Cheers,
Wayne
Here's the list of R40/R40M/R42 that you requested:
R40: 4426-4429, 4258-4261
R40M/R42: 4460-4665, 4684-4727
If I find any others I'll send 'em along.
Their are quite a few mixed marriages on the R32 fleet, even to the point where one original mate is now a phase 1 car (3777-3444) and the other is a phase 2 car (3776-3617) . I understand 3620 has a frame problem in which the car was slightly tipping to one side therefore NYCT made a decision recently to permanently remove the car from service and replacing it with 3348 ex 3659. So many cars are mis-mated because some cars needed more body work than others when the cars were away for overhaul, so a decision was made to simply mismate them upon return rather than having to wait months for their natural mate to return. 3650 & 3767 is not a mixed marriage the way you think as their natural mates were destroyed. On the R40 side 4426-4429 had their mates destroyed as well as 4258-4261. Both pair of the following R42's are also gone: 4680-81, 4714-15, 4766-67 with the mates of 4684-4727 destroyed. The front end of 4726 was removed to be put on 4918 but that car is still OS from one of the Ninth Ave. collisions..
Saw 4918 in the East New York yard (from the "L" train platform above) on May 28, 1998 at 9:35 am. with its mate 4919 behind.
Front end looks all shiny and new. Destination sign in front is blank, but side destination sign still shows "M" as it did on Feb.5, 1995.
From same incident: saw 4938 and 4939 all fixed up on "J" line
April 28, 1998, with their damaged "blind ends" nicely patched.
Thank you for the information!
4918/19 were returned from CI main shop about 3 months ago. One day I saw it on 43 track (the track test track at the edge of yard visible from J line). Apparently it failed the test and has been sitting in the yard ever since, not yet returned to service. The destination sign still shows Ninth Ave.!
Thanks for the info. Just one more quick question re: missing
R40 cars etc. In one of my old master number books (probably
the 1972-73 volume) I show R40 cars #4200 and #4420 as
being out of action due to accident. Ditto for R38 #3990-3991.
Can you confirm or deny either of these? Thanks.
You are correct. Also 4000 & 4001 are gone, destroyed long ago shortly after the R38 fleet was transfered to the A line. There was a derailment in 207 Yard blamed on faulty track which doomed those cars.
On June 6, 1833 the 1st U.S. President to ride in a railroad car was the 7th President of the U.S. Andrew ``Old Hickory'' Jackson. He boarded a B&O (Baltimore and Ohio) passenger train in Baltimore, Maryland.
Charlie Muller.
Say Charlie, what history website are you monitoring? Is it company?
"Old Hickory" didn't make this mornings http://www.thehistorynet.com.
Marty, i can get The History Channel on the internet here on the job.
To get on The History Channel try this: http://www.historychannel.com
When you get it there are instructions on how to get things coming up on the history channel and things that happen on each day of the year. Also when you get to see june 6 it tells you what happened of this day in different years and those who were born on whatever day you look at.
Charlie Muller.
Thanks
www.thehistorynet.com is run by a magazine publishing firm. Same set up. They must have missed "Old Hickory's" ride. I'll try the "Channel" also. It will give me a chance to rate them for better Rail coverage.
In case anyone is interested, I was just speaking with my bombardier source, and apparently the 6 mile elvated JFK Light Rail project is to use Bombardier's Advanced Rapid transit vehicles (the second generation of the original Vancouver SkyTrain, also being built in Kuala Lumpur and on Vancouver's new 22 mile line).
Anyway, the system works while as long as it doesn't snow- then all hell breaks loose.
--Nathan
Oh, terrific. That means they'd have to shut the line down during the winter months. What do they do in Vancouver?
From what I understand, Vancouver is similar to Seattle in it's weather patterns. Therefore, snow is pretty rare. But putting a system that's bad in snow in NY is asking for disaster.
Bombardier is based out of Quebec right? Why would they of all people make a system that's bad in snow?
One would think that Light Rails are bad in snow but Buffalo's system has never been shut down due to blizzards. Light Rails have proven to be cost effective and increase citizen mobility IN CITIES THAT PREVIOUSLY LACKED ADEQUATE TRANSPORTATION ALTERNATIVES. New York City must not abandon its subway system. Extending the A train directly inside JFK and the M and N lines to Laguardia is the only choice.
Our light rail line in Denver has been very reliable in snowy weather. While Denver doesn't get nearly as much snow as the mountains, we get our fair share.
Speaking of LaGuardia, I could see the N being extended out there. As for the M, I wouldn't bet on it.
The reason that the Denver Light Rail system doesn't have snow problems is because CONVENTIONAL light rail technology is used:
JFK will utilise ART technology which means trains are powered by linear induction motors, and snow on the Linear induction rail
is disasterous. Also, because the trains are automated there is a built in "guideway intrusion detection system" which is basically comprised of pressure sensitive sensors- these register snow as a body
and stop the trains.
Except that when the snow lands on the track it'll immediately melt thanks to the eminating heat.
No argument there. Our LRVs do have human operators, and they run on steel wheels on steel rails; station announcements are prerecorded. Now the subway at Denver International Airport... I think that whole situation has been overblown. I've supported the airport since Day One; however, I do feel they could have put in a walkway between concourses. The reason it wasn't done was because it was felt that people wouldn't want to have to walk up to a mile from the main terminal to the most distant concourse.
Sometimes, even conventional equipment doesn't hold up when it snows. Can anyone say R-16?
Now, isn't the Airport Transit System at Chicago O'Hare also powered by linear induction motors? I know for a fact that it's automated (no human operator or even attendant in the cars) and I would presume it thus has sensors as you describe. Yet the ATS is outdoors and does not present any problems in the heavy winter snows which Chicago is susceptible to. Pressure sensors can be set to be more or less sensitive, so that it takes at least a few pounds in a square foot (i.e. a baby or a purse but not a dusting of snow) to stop the trains.
Chicago's system at O'Hare is very similar to what we have at Denver International Airport, except that at O'Hare, it's elevated, while Denver's is all underground. The stations at Chicago are enclosed, but the door arrangement is practically identical. At O'Hare, the trains are 2 or 3 cars; in Denver, 4-car trains are the norm now; stations were built to accommodate 4-car trains, but had only enough doors for 3 cars initially. Eventually, more cars were ordered and doors were added at stations. Interestingly enough, our trains had seats at first, but traffic became so heavy that those seats were removed. Broken guide wheels and computer glitches have accounted for train breakdowns in Denver. Recently, a train stopped because the computer received an erroneous signal that a car had uncoupled.
Does Denver's light rail serve to bring suburbanites into the city and back, or is it used mostly for intracity transport?
For the most part, Denver's light rail line brings people downtown. Keep in mind that the existing line is only 5.3 miles long. It can be thought of as a hub or core line. Currently, it is being extended 8.9 miles along Santa Fe Drive to Mineral Ave. in Littleton, with a possible future extension to Highlands Ranch. Construction is proceeding on schedule and within budget, and the extension is slated to open in July 2000. Other extensions to Lakewood, DIA, and SE Denver are being considered.
In addition, buses have been rerouted to feed the light rail line; one of the purposes of light rail was to reduce the number of buses going downtown and therefore reduce congestion and pollution. This proved to be too successful: LRVs were so crowded that a few downtown bus routes had to be temporarily restored, and RTD had to order additional LRVs. Transfers between buses and light rail are free with transfer coupon or valid light rail ticket.
BTW, our LRVs have m. u. capabilty. During peak hours and weekdays, 2-car trains are the norm; during nights and weekends, they run as single units unless there is a parade or Rockies game or some other event downtown, in which case they run in 2-car trains. LRV stations can accommodate 3-car trains; during the Broncos victory parade last January, RTD ran 3-car trains. The crowd on hand downtown was estimated at 650,000.
As I noted elsewhere, I favor connecting the southerly tracks to the Manhattan Bridge to the Cranberry Tunnel, and the Cranberry tunnel to the Lower Level of the City Hall Station, due to the Manhattan Bridge problem. That being the case, however, one would no longer need to run one train from the Astoria Line to the Sea Beach, and another from the Fulton Line to the 8th Avenue line. One could mix and match.
Therefore, extend the Astoria line to LaGuardia: 30 minutes to Times Square and 45 to Lower Manhattan on the local track, with a cross-platform change to the 7 to GCT. Then run the LaGuardia train through to JFK as a Fulton Street Express. Truncate the A to Lefferts -- too few trains anyway -- and provide ramps up to an elevated bus station from Liberty Ave, Rockway Blvd and Cross Bay for a quick, easy, free bus/subway change. Run 12 "airport" trains an hour from LGA to JFK along the Fulton Express, Broadway Local (or express), Astoria Local. Use a different service to the Rockaways, and run the 8th Avenue Express from Washington Heights to Coney Island.
City residents from just about anywhere could get to the airport with one change of train. Many of those working in Downtown, Midtown, Downtown Brooklyn and Long Island City could get there directly.
Problem: Long Island is more politically powerful than NYC, and it wants direct access to the airports also. Hence the light rail to Jamaica. But the LGA to JFK would work anyway.
Ok, to put this one to rest- the so called JFK Light Rail will be
ELEVATED- just like the vancouver skytrain (photos- this site) except the trains will be more streamlined and look cool.
From what I understand, Vancouver is similar to Seattle in it's weather patterns. Therefore, snow is pretty rare. But putting a system that's bad in snow in NY is asking for disaster.
Bombardier is based out of Quebec right? Why would they of all people make a system that's bad in snow?
I agree with previous comments - a new method of transit is the wrong idea. If they want a rail connection it should be an LIRR express from midtown (maybe with a stop at Jamaica). They already have track most of the way. The Locust Manor Station isn't that far from the airport.
Just south of Locust Manor and between it & the airport is Rochdale Village, a fairly large apartment complex. The folks there would probably mind the addition of tracks thru their complex. IMHO, the best alternative is to use the existing ROW on the old Rockaway line.
Apparently I've been asleep at the helm for a while. What JFK light Rail? The Airport in NYC or something else?
The last thing you guys in NYC need is another mode of transportation. They tend to catch on quick. May I point you to an incident occuring
10/27/04?
According to the June 98 issue of Metro Magazine, the 8.4 mile system will be built, operated and maintained by the AirRail Transit Consortium. The consortium will be comprised of Bombardier Transit Corp., Skanska (USA) Inc. and Perini Corp. Partial service will begin in 2002 and completion of all 8.4 miles is expected in 2003. Proposed LRV stops are;
Jamaica Station (LIRR), Howard Beach (NYCT), Employee parking, Federal Circle, and stops for the 9 airport terminals.
Why do I get a bad feeling from the consortium concept? Are there any places this type of arrangement is working successfully?
I thought the same thing. I hear consortium and I think "it's harder to hit a moving target."
WILL THIS BE LIKE OUR AIRPORT R1'S TRAINS?
I have read all of the posts on this subject. Ladies and gentlemen, while your intentions are good, the reality of the subject is that no conventional transit link (e.g., similar to the two CTA routes) can or will be built into JFK because:
(1) JFK Airport is huge. It may look like a dot on a map of the New York region, but in reality it is as big as Manhattan Island from 50th Street to South Ferry. It would be impossible for a subway station (or 3 or 4 stations, for that matter), to adequately serve this airport. Remember that many of the potential customers are employees as well as travellers.
For that reason, there is a multitude of stops in the central terminal area so that each terminal complex is served. With the tight curves and frequent stops required, a conventional rapid transit train just doesn't do the trick. Only a specialized service, as this will be, can handle this specialized type of travel.
(2) There are legal issues that mandate a special dedicated airport transit service, because the Port Authority has been collecting a $3 per head charge on all air tickets to pay for the new line.
(3) A conventional subway service has serious limitations for travellers who have a lot of luggage. Anyone who has used the CTA to O'Hare willl understand. I have, and while it is a good service, it was not fun schlepping my bags on a crowded train.
(4) The LIRR has no excess capacity between Penn and Jamaica for any airport service. This rules out the old Rockaway Beach Branch as well.
(5) The JFK line is planned to give a multitude of convenient connections to other mass transit. At Howard Beach, the A train is right there. At Jamaica, the J/Z and E trains are right downstairs, and every LIRR Branch can be accessed except Port Washington. The Jamaica Station will be totally reconstructed to accommodate LIRR, subway, and airport train passengers.
So while it's easy to criticize the Port Authority proposal, remember that nothing better has been proposed in the last thirty years.
I thought the City Planning proposal to link the Astoria line to LaGuardia was better, if a choice needs to be made between the two. LaGuardia is a "briefcase" airport, with millions of business travelers coming in (or going out) by themselves and traveling light. Direct mass tranist to the Manhattan CBD is a great benefit, and LaGuardia is closer than either O'Hare or JFK.
I think adding an additional lane -- truck/bus only -- to the VanWyck from the Airport to the Kew Gardens interchange is also a good idea. It would serve more people than the Jamaica to JFK link is likely to.
Keep in mind that while JFK is huge, most of it is empty -- runways and the reeds around them. There is a loop with passenger terminals, and two loops with freight terminals/maintenance hangers. The legal constraint is, in part, self-imposed -- because the Port Authority did not want through service, they agreed to it rather than fight it.
The bottom line is that when the severe regional recession hit in the early 1990s, the MTA cut service, raised fares, raised tolls, and negotiated difficult deals with its workers. The Port Authority kept fares and tolls low, and staffing and wages high -- and drained $600 million a year in airport profits from JFK and LGA to cover the PATH deficit, which had previously been funded by the Tolls and World Trade Center alone. (Until the late 1980s, the airport profits were squandered on nice but unprofitable Cuomo-era facilities like the Fishport and the Bathgate Industrial Park -- can't blame NJ for that).
Absent the decision to drain the City of New York to benefit the state of NJ, the PA could have built lot of airport connections without a legally bound passenger facility charge.
I agree 100% that an extension of the N line (or whatever line serves the Astoria El if the extension is built) is a good idea. It certainly could follow the Grand Central Parkway r.o.w., or be a northward extension from Ditmars Blvd. It's also true that LaGuardia generates much more business type traffic than JFK, so a subway connecton makes sense. With the N line connecting directly into an underutilized Broadway BMTsubway, some trips could run express southward from 57th Street and turn at Canal Street.
I hope to live long enough to see both the JFK and LaGuardia rail links fully operational. I'm one year older than JFK airport, so there should be time left!!
Yes of course the LGA extension should be built and soon. But, I stand by my previous comment that building yet a differently engineered system, with totally different equipment is a poor decision. The curves necessary to a JFK circulator could be engineered to H&M/IRT specs. It would be WAY smarter of the PA to purchase more of the same and stock same parts with a merely expanded maintenance force even if at two separate car shops. Current PATH cars have enough floor space for luggage. Please also note that the on site workers are at least as likely to use FUNCTIONAL transit as tourists. As to the financial constraints this is just another poliyical issue--either you find better lobbyists or spend more resources on bribes--I mean contributions.
The N train from Laguardia could actually run express on the abandoned Astoria express tracks. I'm not sure how many express stops there are between Ditmars and Manhattan but it may be as few as one. But the train could only run express in Rush Hour direction.
The M line too should be extended to Laguardia with express service the whole way (on the abandoned express tracks)
I'm not sure that I follow your plans for the "M".
I assume that you're giving up on sending it over Willy B and routing it up Broadway, and not striking out north from Metropolitan..
I
I was wondering about that too. If he were suggesting going north from Metropolitan how would you get to LGA. The only thing I could think is to utilitize the conrail tracks near fresh pond junction and head north towards Hell Gate. Otherwise a new ROW thru Middle Village would be impossible.
Yeh
Light Rail gets me thinking.
My uncle worked for United Airlines at LGA. I know he got there on the Trolley down Junction Blvd. I been trying to recall if he started out on the Flushing-Ridgewood trolley (at the Wyckoff Station of the Myrtle] or if he went Flushing Av to Maspeth and then Grand Av to Junction
I guess there is a bit more than Cemetary and Park lands between Metrolpolitan and LGA now.
I'll say.
North south from Queens Blvd/the LIE to LaGuardia is impossible. None of the streets have more than one moving lane in each direction. All the major streets go east-west -- toward Manhattan. You wait forever for the lights. Moreover, Junction Blvd is a major commercial street, with double parkers blocking the one lane. No wonder the airlink bus from 74th St/Roosevelt stinks. And if the Grand Central is jammed, you're pretty much out of luck even in a car. All the more reason to built the rail link, although I wouldn't plan on extending the M anytime soon. The N would be a triumph enough.
Brooklyn has the same problem. All the major streets radiate out from Manhattan. So do the subways. Buses go crosstown, but on backed-up local streets with long waits for each light. Two bus routes go down 15th St from 9th to 8th Avenue, a one lane one way street. Double parkers block both lines. Legally, buses cannot back up. I've seen them stuck there for 20 minutes. Its no fun in a car, either. If you want to go east/west south of Eastern Parkway, better pack a lunch. The trip from Coney Island Avenue to Linden Boulevard alone can take half an hour (we could use that Church Ave tunnel back). And, of course, Brooklyn has no highways except for the BQE/Gowanus/Belt around the edge.
[All the major streets radiate out from Manhattan. So do the subways.]
And only the G line and the Franklin Shuttle compensate for that (of course those are the two worst lines in the city but thankfully the cities fixing the Shuttle hopefully the G'll be next).
There has been some idea to somehow get the M from Metropolitan to the unused tracks of the Roosevelt Av IND station, probably using the railroad ROW. From there, it would be easier to extend to the airport. He couldn't be talking about going the other way over the Willly B to connect with Broadway, as the first responder said, because there is no connection there; only to 6th Av. or 8th Av
Thats exactly what makes me think he talking of abandoning the Broadway, Brooklyn, Myrtle Ave section and running the "M" Bay Parkway,Tunnel, and up Broadway, Manhattan.
[There has been some idea to somehow get the M from Metropolitan to the unused tracks of the
Roosevelt Av IND station, probably using the railroad ROW. From there, it would be easier to extend
to the airport. ]
Yes, that's exactly what I'm talking about. Not only would this allow direct access from the airport to Lower Manhattan but it'll also give greater mobility to the people who are wedged in the subwayless area between Queens Boulevard and the Middle Village. In addition it'll allow greater North to South movement in the Queens-Brooklyn area. Finally both the N and the M trains could be extended from Laguardia up to City Island and the go crosstown from there in the Bronx to allow for better East West access in that burrough and to allow for direct Bronx to Queens movement.
I quess what through me was your reference to "Unused express tracks". They have been gone from Myrtle since the early fifties, if not before.
Its an interesting idea. Could even link the Stadium to Shea. Unfortunately they probably both would be gone by the time they get around to doing it.
I didn't pay to much attention to the papers in 1939/40. Does anyone know if any thought was given to linking the Flushing Line, or the World Fair Extension (boy they got rid of that in a hurry) to LaGuardia in those days.
I don't think there was. How many people would fly between cities anyway.
There was never, to my knowledge, any thought to linking the #7 or the IND to LaGuardia. The IND World's Fair extension was torn up as soon as the fair ended. Ironically, prior the opening of the 1964 Fair, the old IND r.o.w. was used to build the Van Wyck Expressway extension along the east side of Flushing Meadow Park.
The Astoria line was supposed to be extended past LaGuardia as part of the IND Second System. This is outlined elsewhere in this website.
From what I've known of City Islanders over the years, I don't think they'd look favorably on trains coming from either direction into or through their section of the City. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the residents might not petition the Supreme Court to be included retroactively under the case that ceded parts of Ellis Island to New Jersey so that any attempt to extend NYC subway service would have meet the Federal standards for passenger railroads. 8-)
Ed Alfonsin/SUNY at Potsdam
On the other hand, if the LIRR is connected to Grand Central, and Metro North uses the capacity to run New Haven Line trains to Penn, they could re-activate the City Island stop on the Amtrack line in Pelham Bay Park. City Islanders could then take the City Island Ave bus to the park, then hop a train right to Mahattan. They might like that.
To all who read my post and shared opinions, thank you.
There is only one express stop on the Astoria El between Queensboro Plaza and Ditmars - and that's at 25th Ave/Astoria Blvd, atop the Triboro Bridge entrance.
While I think a northward extension of the M line (presumably following the old Conrail ROW) is desirable long term, we should focus on one project at a time. The N extension from Astoria to LGA makes sense in the realm of reality today.
Since the Franklin Ave. shuttle has so few passengers and can't usefully be connected to either the Fulton St. or Brighton lines, is the shuttle doomed to be torn down? Every plan I can conceive of to save the line only brings the same answer: who would ride it? For example, it could be connected to the Fulton St. line and run to Manhattan; but what train would it be and where would it go? Another example is connecting it to the Brighton line; but (again) where would it go? (Coney Is.?) The shuttle could, at great expense, be connected to the G, but (as with all the other options) who would bother taking it?
My theory is that now that free Metro-Card transfers exist, the MTA will tear down this line and provide extra bus service to the area. As a subway fan, I'm not happy with my conclusion; but I don't see the TA hanging-on to this old line for much longer. To all nycsubway.org/subway fans: What do you think?
This is a tough one. I've heard some talk of the TA actually
doing a rehab on this line, however, in light of the fact that
they abandoned one station (Dean Street) in 1994, it is
conceivable that they COULD close it. Would they? I don't
think so, at least not right now. The very fact that there is
talk of rehabilitation (and boy, does it ever need it) kind of
leads me to believe that the "S" will be around at least
into the new millenium.
As for connecting it to the Fulton Street line - very difficult to do
in light of the area's geography. One station's elevated, the
other is underground. Here's a scenario: You'd need to
remove the existing terminus and then build a ramp between
Atlantic and Fulton to send the line underground. This would
be a pretty steep drop; you'd have to tunnel UNDER the
Franklin Ave. station, then find a way to hook this up to the Fulton
street line . This would necessitate one very sharp curved
section. If the Franklin Avenue terminal were removed, it
might pay to also rebuild the Dean Street station. This project
is probably doable, but would no doubt cost well
over a billion dollars to build. An "H" service running from
Hoyt-Schermerhorn (using the outside tracks) to Coney Island or
Brighton Beach would be the possible result of this.
Would people use it? Hard to say. Assuming the above "H"
routing, it would be easy to transfer at Hoyt-Schermerhorn from
the "A" (just walk across the platform), but would commuters from
Manhattan be willing to do this? Also, on the other hand, would
a passenger getting on an "H" train at say, Avenue U in Brooklyn
be willing to get off at Hoyt-Schermerhorn and elbow his way
onto a packed "A" or "C" train to continue his ride to Manhattan?
They'd be better off changing trains at Prospect Park or one of
the Brighton express stops for a "D" or "Q" train to get into town.
. Now, for people going directly to Downtown Brooklyn, this would
not be a bad service to have. It would eliminate two changes of
trains and would probably save about ten minutes or so.
The possibilities are many for a service of this type.
If you have not heard this yet- the MTA is currently doing a $74 million rehabilitation project on the entire line. They are replacing tracks and signals. All stations will be renovated and modermized. Even a passageway will be built between the Botanic Garden station on the Shuttle Line and the Franklin Ave Station on the 2,3,4,5 lines. So with all this going on, I highly doubt that the MTA plans on shutting down this shuttle line anytime in the near future. Besides, the community surrounding the shuttle would never allow it.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the only reason this line has lasted so long to begin with is because otherwise there's no way to transfer between the Fulton IND line and the Brighton Beach BMT line? If so, the economist in me says, why don't we just dig a walkway between the Lafayette Ave. station on the Fulton and the entire Atlantic Ave.-Pacific St.-LIRR complex? My Hagstrom tells me that this is about two blocks max. True, there's some added distance for the people currently using the shuttle (although given that this option only requires one change as opposed to the current two, it might be a wash); however, now you can change to *all* of the Coney Island lines, plus the IRT and LIRR. Heck, extend that walkway another half block to the Fulton St. stop on the G while you're at it. I suspect the savings from getting rid of the shuttle would pay for this project in a relatively short period (say, 10 years?).
On the other hand, in the interest of fairness, is there really demand for the shuttle as it stands now? The couple of times I've ridden it, while it wasn't standing room only, it was pretty full. This wasn't at peak times of the day, either. Now, there didn't seem to be much local traffic; everybody was basically going through from Prospect Park to Franklin Ave. to make the change. Few people got on or off at the intermediate stops. Anybody ride this at rush hour? Is there more local traffic at that point? Another thing: a lot of the ridership both times seemed to be kids. Is this a big school route or something?
Unfortunately, I disagree with most of you who regard every existing service as sacred. The same everybody gets a veto system that has preserved the Franklin Avenue shuttle, whose absence would require a few people to walk a few blocks or take a bus, has prevented the Second Avenue subway and other improvements. More to the point, the $74 million being spent on the shuttle could have been spent to implement the 40 year old plan to rebuild the Franklin Ave junction on the IRT. This would allow more IRT trains to travel to Brooklyn during rush hour. As it is, capacity limits force some #5 trains to terminate at Bowling Green. The Brooklyn IRT has been overcrowded for 50 years. Maintaining the past for a few at an enormous costs drains resources which can be used in the future.
Why would Brooklyn politicians prefer the shuttle to the rebuilt junction? First, I doubt the choice was put to them, or that they even know that the junction plan existed. The MTA is like a black void -- get out of it what you can, because if you don't it'll just go to someone else. Second, the advantage of the Franklin Avenue is fare evasion. Some time ago, the MTA was trying to justify eliminating it based on paid riders. Community leaders responded (without shame) that ridership was higher, but that most people didn't pay. The question is, having insisted on maintaining the shuttle, will "the community" insist on maintaining the paper transfer, so residents can sneak onto the shuttle then transfer to the rest of the system for free? And if the possibility of fare evasion no longer exists, will anyone ride the shuttle?
Eliminating the paper transfers at Franklin Avenue won't end the shuttle's usefulness for fare evaders. They'll still be able to "transfer" to the rest of the system on the Brighton end of the Shuttle - less convenient, maybe, but as the old expression goes, you get what you (don't) pay for :-)
In all seriousness, political reasons are at least partially responsible for the Shuttle's continued existence. Closing down a line that serves a mainly low-income area is way too controversial a move for the MTA. It's easy to imagine the hue and cry from the community leaders ... probably many of the same individuals who freely acknowledged the Shuttle's rampant farebeating. Of course, the irony in all this is the fact that closing down the Shuttle and diverting its funding could (as you noted) improve IRT service in Brooklyn, thus helping a lot more lower-income people than would be inconvenienced by the Shuttle's closure.
Now that we're stuck with it, here's a suggetion for the shuttle and any "Redbirds" that aren't completely rusted out.
The TA has an equipment shortage, something the IRT-oriented order won't help. So add some boards on the Brighton Local from Sheepshead to Prospect Park, and use the Redbirds as a 24 hr per day local on the Brighton. Have it terminate at the A. It can run OPTO with a few cars, since few people would take it farther than the next express stop. Run it in two five car OPTO segments twice as often.
Run the IND/BMT service express only from Sheepshead on. Remove a couple of trains, on the grounds that a few people would stay on the local and use the IRT or IND instead. Move them over to the A.
If nothing else, the shuttle should be converted to IRT and assigned the best of the redbirds, to same trains.
And rebuild the Franklin Ave. junction anyway.
Brighton riders screamed bloody murder when NYCT removed R68's from the Q and replaced them with R40's. Now you're advocating removing more in favor of Redbirds, everybody having to change trains, huge reconstruction costs in which new cars would come in before construction can be completed. Furthermore, you can't use Redbirds for OPTO, as they don't have transverse cabs.
If you are going to take their word, NYCT says they will fix it up, a long term reconstruction plan is in the works, the line will be closed for reconstruction soon and the communities it serves is putting pressure on their elected officials & NYCT to keep their word.
The same year Dean Street was closed they tried to close the entirwe shuttle *overnight* and replcae it with a free shuttle bus (like was done with BX55 and 149/3av). The neighborhood thought that this was the first attempt to close the entire shuttle and won the fight. The MTA (State Agency) ordered NYCT to keep it open and to repair the line.
We have had lots of posts lately about stopping this line or that line.
What are we thinking? We support transit. Instead of removing lines we should be devoting our energies to *adding* lines and adding service. In 1994, before the cuts, there was serious planning for weekend A and F express in Brooklyn. Can't we try for those instead of cutbacks?
**opinions expressed are my own and not those of NYCT or MTA***
One thing that could easily be done with the Franklin Shuttle is to restore it to its older operation before the TA reduced it to a shuttle-only with a single-track at Prospect Park. For decades, Franklin was a summer express to Coney Island, with through service via the Sea Beach/4th Avenue express to Chambers Street on Sundays and holidays--with disconnecting the H tracks from the Manhattan Bridge into Nassau, the latter would be impossible, but expresses from Franklin to Coney Island would give Sunday Brighton express service, at least in the summer.
Franklin service also used to be a rush-hour local year-round to Brighton Beach. If that were restored, all Brighton service to/from Manhattan could be express from Prospect Park south. The only reservation I could see would be that the platforms on the Franklin branch (doesn't that sound better than 'shuttle'?) may only be long enough for six 67' cars.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
There are plenty of R32's still kicking about - use them!
They don't seem like they're ready to give up the ghost just yet.
Only hitch - would passengers be willing to transfer from local
to express service? Othewise, a very good idea.
Further footnote on Franklin--
I have a flyer from around 1920 which detailed the changes in Brighton service with the opening of the Montague Street Tunnel. Without going into all the details, the basic service was local from Franklin to Coney Island, express from Brighton Beach/Kings Highway through DeKalb and Montague Street and local up Broadway to 57th Street or Queensboro Plaza. Special rush hour expresses went from Prospect Park to DeKalb and over the Bridge, express on Broadway to Times Square. During evenings (till a bit after midnight) and Sundays/Holidays, expresses ran from Brighton Beach via the Manhattan Bridge and express in Manhattan to Times Square.
The variations (expresses during the summer go to/from West Eighth except on Sundays, holidays, and rush hours) seem to have been as complicated at IRT service to Flatbush Avenue during the 1940s.
One thing most of us forget nowadays is that up until 1952 or 1953, there was full rush hour service on the NYCTS on Saturday mornings; I don't know if Saturday afternoon ever had full rush service.
In summary, Franklin was not originally intended to be the Toonerville operation the TA reduced it to (the same thing was done to the BMT Culver service after 1959--too many people were still riding it).
Ed Alfonsin/SUNY Potsdam
Quoting Brian Cudahy in Under the Sidewalks of New York: "From time immemorium, New Yorkers have had a positive addiction to riding express trains. Local trains carry large numbers of passengers only as far as the next express stop, where everyone gets off to catch the express." I am probably the biggest express addict around; I won't take a local unless I have to get off at a local stop, and even then, if it's within one stop of an express station, I'll take the express and backtrack on foot. I used to give my sister a hard time when she lived in the city, because she would always have an apartment by a local stop. (She's now a suburban housewife in Jersey.)
Bottom line: I don't think you would any problem with passengers wanting to change from local to express. BTW, when Mayor McClellan operated the inaugural special on Day One, he didn't give up the controls until the train had reached 103rd St. I'll bet he had so much fun running that train (express at 40 mph, pretty impressive at the time), he felt like a kid.
Hear! Hear! I could not agree with you more!
As I have mentioned, my motto is and always has been
"more and better service", and the passengers will
use it. Now with the "unlimited MetroCard" on its way,
what better time than now to improve service?
YES to 24-7 "A" express service in Brooklyn along with
24-7 "C" service to go with it....(eliminate "A" local
service in Manhattan; replace it with the "C")
YES to at least rush-hour "F" service in Brooklyn ...
and the possible return of "G" local to Church Avenue
(They might have to re-open the lower level at Bergen Street)...
YES to 24-7 "Q" express service in Brooklyn (they may wait
until the 63rd St.tunnel work is done before doing this)...
YES to an overnight express service in Queens ("E' or "F")
once the 63rd Street connector is completed...
YES to at least ONE express service on Lexington Avenue
overnight...I vote for the #4..
In other words - more, faster, better train service.
The City never sleeps - why should the Subway???
And how about the M being more than a shuttle, evenings and weekends. Between the J and M send one to Chambers, the other up 6th or 8th Av.
AFTER they fix up the Williamsburg Bridge, so I'm told...
One of the other contributors had an idea like this, but
for a "K" service running from Canarsie to 57th Street,
just like the good old days.
I agree that the "M" should be more than just the
"cemetery shuttle" (It's been that way since at least
1969), but the 64 dollar question seems to be: does the
ridership warrant it? I guess somebody's going to have
to do a head count and find out.
That reminds me - one pet peeve of mine - do you think
that they will ever reopen the Broad and Fulton Street
stations on the weekend for "J" service? Or reinstate
service through Broad Street weekdays (the "M" route
to Ninth Avenue?). I thought there was a surplus of
funds...oh well...
That ALSO reminds me - way back when (1970 or so), I believe
they had planned an "MM" service to operate in the
non-rush hours - my guess along the "KK" route from
Metropolitan Avenue to 57th Street - - sign rolls on R16
and R32 cars even included this green "MM" - but it
was never implemented.
If rider ship on the M is too low, it's ironic, becausr Ridgewood is PACKED with cars, especially onthe weekends. With no direct connection to anything, everyone uses cars and car service, and that will seem to justify the poor service. But I wish they would try to lure people out of the cars with better service, especialy now that they're introducing the passes.
I know what you mean about packed with cars. I tried to drive to Ridgewood once, and it was hell. There are no streets with more than one lane in each direction. And the streets with one lane in each direction are heavy commercial streets with double parking. How any buses get out of the Fresh Pond Depot I don't know.
Most people use the subway to get to Manhattan, or a regional center (ie. Downtown Brooklyn) and Manhattan. For the last 50 years, Ridgewood has not attracted people who work in Manhattan, therefore few subway riders, therefore little service. But that could change, as the price of housing closer to Manhattan rises. I got a call recently from a freelance writer who had moved there -- she was writing a piece on the economy. Her parents had moved out the Island 50 years before.
Note that in the past politicians this area of Queens opposed subway improvements, because it feared that the subway would allow non-Whites from Bushwick to move in. The motto was "keep Brooklyn out of Queens." They fought the origninal 63rd St tunnel plan for a new subway to Jamaica through this area. These are people, in the words of one who knows them, who believe that if you drive you are in the middle class, and if you ride the subway you are among the poor.
As that group dies out, this attitude may change, and people may realize that the subway doesn't just allow the poor to get into your neighborhood, it allows you to get to Manhattan -- where 2/3 of the jobs and all the high paid jobs are located. Still, the M is a poor way to get to Midtown. I think a lot of people from Ridgewood park and ride in Long Island City. And neither the Broadway El or the adjacent buildings make you think you are riding a modern system in the city of the future.
Rising housing prices in Ridgewood should help alleviate the old fears about "Brooklyn moving to Queens" mainly because the poor won't be able to live in Ridgewood (as well as other similar areas) any more. Maybe then there will be more community pressure for improved service on the M line, especially if more residents work in Manhattan.
I think the future of areas like Ridgewood depends on the minority middle class. Time was they just couldn't move to the suburbs, and an area such as Ridgewood or Southeast Queens was a move up. But now they can. The entire group of Latinos I lived with in college has moved to the burbs. Of course (while camping last year) I did meet a Dominican Family that had moved up from Bushwick to Ridgewood. But he was an engineer for the T.A., and had to live in the city!
Of course, the other option if you want to gentrify is to send in the artists.
Western Ridgewood is now predominantly minority, and they are still moving up, so that is no longer any reason to keep transit out. (I did wish the Montauk Branch was connected to 63rd St. It would be a one-seat ride to my parents on Roosevelt Is. You should see what I go through getting there on weekends. Walk to Q-39 and change to Q-102, neither of which runs often or connects well. L to F to B, or M shuttle to J to F th B, and now with the shuttle, M&J or L to N/R to 20 min. shuttle.
And think about getting uptown to City College. Downtown Bklyn and other places along the southern Div. are an incredibly long and crowded bus ride on the B-38, 54, 26 0r 52, (following the Myrtle el route), then change. Or the L to the G or Manhattan, or the M&J to Manhattan. It'scrazy. My wife thinks getting a car like everone else is the answer, but to me that will lead to just being stuck in traffic, and searching for blocks for parking. They never should have taken the Myrtle el down. We could use limited stop on the buses, and extended train service on the weekends
Ridgewood needs something. I never felt so hemmed in in my life as when I tried to drive there. My father in law suggested I look for a great old restaurant/bar called Canoodles at Onderdonk and Catulpa. It had closed, but driving around looking for it on a Friday was hell. We eventually had a nice meal, but I'm not looking to go back. The car is useless, and six M trains an hour makes for a long ride.
But the members Community Board 5 (Middle Village, Maspeth, Ridgewood, Glendale) and its council members still believe that isolation means salvation. I doubt they would want a transit improvement if it was offered. And as one of the last holdouts of Archie Bunker in a yuppie/immigrant city, don't expect it to offered if they don't get it now -- before term limits sweeps their folks off the City Council in 2001.
Well nows our chance to lobby for the rebuilding of the Myrtle Avenue line (this time underground), especially given downtown Brooklyn's renewed vibrancy.
Why doesnt the MTA rebuild an EL on Myrtle Ave????
Number one: Cost
Number two: Those areas that would be serviced by the el lack the clout to get the MTA to use whatever money does exist on such a line.
Number three: tunnels are the wave of the future, not els.
Tie it into the G at the never-used connection at Bedford-Nostrand.
Supposedly, one reason given for the Myrtle Ave.el's closure was that it was "too slow". Well, look at the circumstances: the Q units were used during the final years of operation and, yes, they were slow. It wasn't entirely their fault: when they were transferred to the 3rd Ave. el in 1949, when the Flushing line became an IRT route, they proved to be too heavy because of rebuilding. This was no big deal on the Flushing line, since it was built as an elevated subway line, but the 3rd Ave. el couldn't handle that kind of weight. As a result, the Qs were fitted with lighter trucks salvaged from retired Composite units, and kept these trucks when they were sent back to the BMT in 1957-58. Unfortunately, those lighter trucks came with less powerful motors, so much so that the Qs could barely make the grade at Broadway. I've heard that those cars would coast most of the way between stations, so as not to burn out the motors.
IMHO, they should have kept the multisectional units around for Myrtle Ave. service; they were retired far too prematurely.
[Tie it into the G at the never-used connection at Bedford-Nostrand.]
Doing so wouldn't help Ridgewood much. The G lacks direct service to Manhattan and, like the M, is rather infrequent. Better express bus service is probably the only easy solution.
There's been an ongoing thread on nyc.transit and misc.transport.urban-transit about increasing service on the LIRR Montauk line through Queens, possibly with light rail. For a variety of reasons - not least the line's termination in Long Island City rather than Manhattan - the idea scarcely seems worth discussing.
It wouldn't give direct access to Manhattan, but it would sure ease travel from that side of Brooklyn or lower Manhattan.
Lacking service to Manhattan is one of the G's many problems. It's clearly the worst line on the system.
The G was never intended for service to Manhattan. It just so happens that the Crosstown line was the only one built out of all the ones which were planned to go from Queens to Brooklyn as part of the IND Phase 2 project. With demographics and traffic patterns changing over the years the way they have, it probably would make sense to run it to Manhattan. Some construction would have to be done, though.
An couple of "X" switches east of Hoyt-Schermerhorn shoud just about do it. Still, it would be a circuituous trip. Better than nothing at all.
Start it from Bedford-Nostrand (spare track's there), then run
it up the "F" line then switch to 8th Avenue (terminate it at the unused 42nd Street lower level?) May be good for rush-hour or rush-hour/weekday runs. Keep the existing "G" service, however, since
it interacts with a number of other routes (7,E,F,R,L,A,C)
Both the Myrtle and 3rd Av el were supposed to get new R-39 cars. The real reason the Myrtle was closed was because Polytech people didn't want it in their new development. So, it;s like, those people don't need it, noone works out in Bushwick (and remember, the area had been hit by rioting), so get rid of it. Meanwhile, their Metrotech project wouldn't even be built for another 20 years.
R39 cars? Please elaborate. I don't recall ever hearing
about that contract number. The only thing I can visualize
is a stainless-steel version of the R36 for the IRT, or an
updated version of the R38 (or precursor of the R40)
for the BMT/IND.
They would have been basically a stainless steel version of the R-36, or an IRT dimensioned version of the R-38. (With gap fillers for the Myrtle line). These were to be lightweight el cars to replace the old stuff. If you can find any list of R numbers, you will see that there was such a contract number, but it was cancelled.
Let's build the Second Ave. subway instead. It will serve a lot more people.
Western Ridgewood is now predominantly minority, and they are still moving up, so that is no longer any reason to keep transit out. (I did wish the Montauk Branch was connected to 63rd St. It would be a one-seat ride to my parents on Roosevelt Is. You should see what I go through getting there on weekends. Walk to Q-39 and change to Q-102, neither of which runs often or connects well. L to F to B, or M shuttle to J to F th B, and now with the shuttle, M&J or L to N/R to 20 min. shuttle.
And think about getting uptown to City College. Downtown Bklyn and other places along the southern Div. are an incredibly long and crowded bus ride on the B-38, 54, 26 0r 52, (following the Myrtle el route), then change. Or the L to the G or Manhattan, or the M&J to Manhattan. Or the L to the A (all local) It'scrazy. My wife thinks getting a car like everone else is the answer, but to me that will lead to just being stuck in traffic, and searching for blocks for parking. They never should have taken the Myrtle el down. We could use limited stop on the buses, and extended train service on the weekends
Yesterday afternoon I saw a couple of Triboro Coach express buses in Midtown that were marked "Ridgewood - Middle Village." So apparently there are other commuting options besides the slow M train or driving.
Those Triboro coaches go from Midtown to around Fresh Pond Rd n Metro Ave. There's also service to Glendale from Triboro.
But this runs to Ridgewood weekday rush hours only, takes a circuituous route through Rego Park to get to the LIE, is slowed by traffic jams on the LIE, and is $4.
Relevant to the whole issue, today I ran across the Queens Chronicle (Thursday the 11th, at the height of this discussion), and it has an article about M service and the closing of the Williamsburg Bridge next year. Our assemblywoman, Cathy Nolan, is for improvements of transit in Ridgewood and Middle Village. She complained about the plan to shut down all service, when there was an earlier plan to temporarily move the tracks to the roadway, which was scrapped as "too costly". Also mentioned in the article was the Committee for Better Transit's ideas to discount fares, and to extend the Q-24 to Lorimer@Metropolitan to replace the J and to provide Metrocard transfers from the 7 to the G (Court Sq/45th Rd), and from the J&M to the G; peak direction shuttle service on the recently closed stations of the Montauk Branch, at subway fares, and revitalizing a lower cost service on the Brooklym-Jamaica-Atlantic Branch, and temporarily opening the Woodside Jct station (there was recently a discussion about this station on the transit newsgroup).
I also think they should extend the B-18 and Q-54 into Manhattan. 10 years ago, when the bridge was closed, they provided a bus to a ferry, That was five different vehicles for M riders, and it must have been slow. I don't know how people managed. (and I don't even think they plan to do that this time.) They should use better ways to replace the service than that.
I think it would be a good idea to recycle the Montauk Branch as a
rapid transit line, and perhaps the Atlantic Branch as well. There is one problem, though, with the Atlantic Branch - a rather tall apartment building sits atop the right-of-way near Union Turnpike and Woodhaven Boulevard, any reactivation of the Atlantic Branch would have to tunnel halfway to China to avoid this building's foundation.
There's already an unused LIRR connection in Rego Park, and a bellmouth in the IND line near 63rd Drive. However, the ultimate goal of any reactivation of the Atlantic Branch should be to reach John F. Kennedy Airport. (I have not read all of the JFK light rail posts, so I don't know if this idea was mentioned there).
Here is the plan that I made to bring the population of the S train back to a high. First off it will not be the S train anymore it will be the H train. It will have terminal at Bergan Street ot will go down the N being the Express line to Coney Island then it will turn onto the Brighton Line being the Brighton Express it will then go down the Shuttle route then with the new tunnel bring built to connect the A,C lines it will turn on to the A,C lines being local to all the way to West 4th street it then will go back onto the sixth avenue line it will go on to Q line branch into Queens and with thhe Queensboro connection being built it will go on to the E,F,R and G lines it the will terminate at 179th Street
Hey Chris, they already have a route like this -
It's called a "fantrip"! Thanks for the chuckle!
They already closed the Dean st. station on the Franklin ave. line. I think this is just forshadowing the line's destruction. The express A train doesn't even stop at Franklin avenue and you have to go outside of the system to transfer to the shuttle. Whenever i've taken this train no one really is on it. Most people can walk to other stations or take a bus. I really don't see this line being used much longer.
Here we go again! The community and the MTA have spoken and the line WILL be fixed up.
Hear, Hear!
Does this mean that they're going to fix up Dean Street as well?
(We Think Not)
Dean Street is gone permanently as it is close to Franklin Ave. The line however will be single track from north of Park Place to Franklin Ave. instead of north of Dean St. as it is currently.
As recently as Friday, June 5, the R-110B was back in service. 6 cars (#3001 through 3006) are now running on the C line. Cars 3007-3009 are being held for engineering.
Does anyone know how long the time "lockout" is going to be to prevent fraudulent use of the Monthly and Weekly Metrocards? My commute is such that I often transfer onto the second bus of my trip within 5 minutes of when I got on the first. I'm wondering if I'm going to be standing around waiting for time to pass before I can transfer.
From what I understand the lock out will take affect at the same subway station or bus farebox. So when you transfer to the second bus, it recognizes you're in a different place and not trying to use the card to get a second person onto the same bus.
-Dave
The official info on the lockout:
Dave, our terrif site host, is right. The lockout applies to the station or bus of first use. You can use at another station or bus without that worry. The lockout -called passback in official talk- is designed to avoid one person paying for multiple riders. However, you can enter the system to go to work, leave the card with a family member who will be using it later, have them meet you. You then swipe to get home and leave it with them to follow later- that would be allowed. (employee passes if caught will lead to termination of the employee. They are good only for the employee-no family, spouses, or anyone else period.)
As of 6/5/1998, I do not know what the time period will be. When I went to class the talk was something like 15 minutes to one hour (but nothing was decided so dont take this as policy.)
15 min to one hour would be fantastic for a pass back feature!!!
CTG, I believe the "pass back" time is about 14 or 15 min. A Transfer to a second bus wouldn't matter to a unlim card holder, i.e. 1st trans is a trans, 2nd is a fare, but it's still free. I think it still processes the trans as a trans, but don't quote me.
Mr t__:^)
When I was going home from school and I when I was passing the through the Perry Street exit it noticed the tunnel past the station going at leat a mile and a half. I can't tell if they are making a new station past the 205 street station? The last time I went through that exit the track made a heavy turn into a gap track in which trains rested. The tunnel was to long for a 10 car R-68 can anybody tell what it is.
Sounds like that's simply a tail track beyond the station to hold equipment between turns. Also - in 1940 the City of NY was considering extending the Concourse IND line eastward and northward past the White Plains Road elevated - but when the Dyre Ave. Line r.o.w. became available from the defunct NY Westchester and Boston, any plan to extend the Concourse Subway was shelved.
Actually, that extension was to go to the Dyre Ave Line.
The Dyre Ave Line was originally designated as an IND Line.
The 205th ST tunnel dead-ends behind a big slab of rock at Webster Ave that is visable from the fromer NYC Harlem Div tracks. The 3rd Ave El northern extension to White Plains road ran over Webster Ave
from North of Fordham Rd to Gun Hill Rd. 205th ST/Webster Ave is one block north of where the 3rd Ave El 204th ST station was located.
The planned extension was to cross over the NYC tracks and be elevated across that portion of Bronx Park to Burke Ave.
where it may have gone underground againdue to the sharp rise in
elevation out of the Bronx River Valley at that point.
I do not remember how far east Burke Ave extends and its proximity to the former NYW&B/Dyre Ave Line.
You're absolutely correct: when it opened, the Dyre Ave. line was considered an IND line and operated by IND personnel, even though it used IRT-sized equipment.
BTW, when the Rockaway line opened, it was considered the TA's FOURTH subway division. Through trains from Manhattan changed crews at Euclid Ave.
[BTW, when the Rockaway line opened, it was considered the TA's FOURTH subway division. Through trains from Manhattan changed crews at Euclid Ave.]
In addition, there were extra fares charged for travel south of Broad Channel. This arrangement lasted until the middle to late 1960s, I believe.
The zone fare lasted until the fare rose to 80 cents. An interesting sid epiece here:
Station agents used to have to keep separate records for this second fare including separate reports. (Fare evaders were dealt with as they are dealt with at this time.)
Actually, the double fare lasted until Sept, 1, 1975, when the basic fare rose from 35 to 50 cents. Rockaway riders, already paying 70 cents under the 35 cent fare, were spared an increase to $1.00. On that date, the double fare beyond Broad Channel was eliminated.
According to a thread on nyc.transit a while ago, the extra zone fare was not charged for travel within the Rockaways themselves. Local riders got some sort of special tickets that allowed travel on the basic fare.
Uh, majour correction is in order: there was NEVER an 80-cent subway/bus fare in New York City. When the fare increased from 75 cents, the next rung in the ladder was 90 cents.
Thanks! I stand corrected
according to a book i'm reading regarding nyc subways purchasing the dyre line from the ny westchester and boston was a hell of a deal. right of way, tracks signals & stations all ready complete it was purchased for a steal versus having to construct a new extension of the "D" from 205 st east. I hope extension of current lines isn't completely dead in the water.
Beyond the crossover, there is about 650 feet of track on each side. The tracks are used for relaying trains and for storage, nothing more.
Each track holds eight R-68 cars...
Were these extra 650 feet built specifically for train storage, or were they part of an abortive extension plan (a la the F tracks east of Second Avenue)?
The relay tracks are north of the 205th St. station. One reason for this is that the three yard lead tracks from Concourse Yard are south of 205th St. While there is ample room for the yard leads and the cross-over for the relay tracks on the south side of the station, it is possible that the designers feared too much congestion during peak times. They may have also thought about extending the line further north-east. Either or both are possible reasons for the configuration of the tracks in that area.
The entire IND system was built with expansion in mind. Since part of the Second System involved extending the Concourse line to, I believe, Boston Rd., I'm sure that's what they had in mind when that additional trackage was put in.
The only place I can think of where IND service ends at a wall is at the World Trade Center. I think 207st on the A also has a wall, but I'm not sure..
-Hank
Indeed it does.
Court Street (the Transit Museum) ends at a wall.
8th Avenue ("L" line - not really an IND station, but
it looks the part) also ends at a wall.
... Wayne ...
IND Services ending at a wall (or a building is in the way-- *)
207 (A), Lefferts *(A), Rockaway park* (S[H}), Far Rock *(A).
BMT: One track of the B at Coney, 1 track of the N at Coney. M At Metropolitan.Franklin Shuttle at Franklin.
(I dont think I missed any)
I don't think Coney Island counts, because the portions of the B, N, F, and D/Q lines in Brooklyn are former BMT lines (West End, Sea Beach, Culver, and Brighton).
Do you think there is any possibility of reviving plans to extend the "D" line eastward? Extending the tunnel across Bronx Park to Burke Ave./White Plains Rd. would provide an alternative route (via transfer, not track connection) to Manhattan for people on the White Plains Rd. and Dyre Ave. lines. Extending it past that point would probably not make sense, but the short extension from Webster Ave. to White Plains Rd. would add a lot of flexibility for a relatively small amount of construction.
If anything could be done,
a connection with the current Metro/former NYC Harlem Div,
would be more feasable.
I doubt that any extension across Bronx Park would or could be built.
If it were to happen, I believe that the 2nd Ave Subway would be completed first, which would have a connection to the Dyre Ave line via the former New Haven Harlem/Shore Line, as the NYW&B did.
My other possible connection would be from the Pelham Bay line to the
Whitr Plains Road line via Westchester Ave. That connection would provide an East Bronx / West Manhattan line.
There could also be a possibility of double decking the NYC Harlem Div tracks with Rapid transit on the upper level and the current NY and Connecticut surburban trains occupying their current level.
Then the 205th St Connection to the line could relieve some of the suburban congetion on the line along with the possible double decking would increase the capacity and utility of the line.
Hi all,
What do you all think will be like after July 4th when unlimited Metrocard goes into effect?
-% of ridership jump?
-new/major revision services?, eg: new line, more express services, etc...basically what do you think it'll be like on and few months after 7/4/98?
TIA,
Michael Adler
USPS Letter Carrier in Denver, ColorFUL Colorado
The MTA recently stated that it expects ridership to increase by 500,000 riders per day. Due to this, they have cancelled the 'Light Riding' schedules for this summer.
Is this 500,00 figure just for the subway, or does it include buses too?
What exactly is "unlimited" Metrocard, anyway? I thought it already pretty much was unlimited: use on any subway, bus, get free transfers, etc.
On July 4, monthly, weekly, and daily passes are being introduced. This is more than transfers -- this is unlimited usage within a given period of time. (Of course, old-fashioned pay-per-ride MetroCards will continue to be available along with the current transfer options.)
no daily passes will be sold.only weekly,monthly,and express bus monthly passes
Daily MetroCards will be available at some point in the future. Various problems (I believe software-related) required postponing their introduction from 7/4/98 to an as-yet-undetermined date.
software is not the problem.since daily cards can be encoded from the TBT.also daily cards will be used by AFC customer service,for certain cases where customers have problems with there weekly,monthly cards.since unlimited ride farecards can't be fixed at the booth,customers must mail all farecards to AFC customer service as quickly as possible.I love to give out mailers:)
Why? From what I've heard, daily MetroCard passes will also be available.
Andres, Nope not right away. Cubic (software co) had a lot of trouble getting done with the rest. They orig told the Gov it couldn't be done, he wished them Merry X'mas.
Mr t__:^)
David, Value vs. Unlim:
Value = Pay fare & get ONE Transfer permission encoded, which expires in 2 hrs.
Value = Pay up to four fares (pass-back) & get up to 4 Trans.
Time = One customer can ride the entire system (off/on) all day, but don't try to get back on the same stn with in 15 min or same bus route, i.e. U can Trans to another bus line (bus to bus),
plus Subway to bus, bus to subway.
One wrinkle Express buses require "step-up" fare from "local" unlim card & U don't get a Transfer off a Express bus with a "local" card, so ask driver for "paper" Transfer, then start all over again.
Mr t__:^)
Unlimited MetroCard, huh?
Trying to be Philly,huh?:):):):):):)
After 4 July, there will be ridership increases, probably quite significant, but the TA (if we look at its history) will probably use the increase as "proof" that its service is perfect, and could stand some more improvements such as elimination of overnight expresses on Sixth Avenue, Central Park West, and Broadway-Seventh Avenue to bring those lines into conformity with Lexington Avenue, Fourth Avenue, Queens Boulevard, Broadway, and any place else that used to have expresses twenty-four hours a day. And then the next step will be to substitute bus service for any number of locals in outlying areas.
Ridership will increase because it will become a lot cheaper. Zoned fares like San Francisco's might have been a nice option, but it's been rejected time and again in NY even though flat-rate fare discriminates against many people wanting to go a few blocks. The pass idea should help them. Maybe we'll finally get two-way bus service on the main avenues that were one-wayed back in the 1960s!
By the way, why did the TA ever decide to have expiration dates for its regular farecards? (I notice that Chicago is doing it too.) Dollar bills don't expire, so why should the farecard? It's particular galling to those of us who live out of the region and would like to be able to save some time when we get off a train/plane/bus the way we can do in Washington and in San Francisco. Am I out the $15 or so on a card that's now expired?
Ed Alfonsin/SUNY at Potsdam
Interesting Question
It may have something to do with expected detioration Thats not how you spell it)
from the official MTA Website
"What if my card expires and there's still money on it?
Transfer the money to a new MetroCard. Bring the old card to any subway station within one year of the expiration date and ask the clerk to make the transfer. We do not add 10 percent when you transfer your money from an old to a new MetroCard."i
Ed, The key here is if you use the card a couple of times you'll use up the "Bonus" first so U won't loose it down the road.
As far as expiration ... the card usually has about a year of life on it. These things R a bit fragile (scratches, bending, dirt, running over it) so the TA doesn't want U 2 keep it forever because they would get too many problem ones turning up.
When it expires U use to have a few months at the token booth, then U have to mail it 2 MetroCard ctr in Brooklyn, 1 yr aft expire it's too bad for U.
I have a question on the "time" card .... do U have a year AFTER YOU BUY before the card won't work at first use ? For our friend Ed this would be his kind of card, i.e. one day pass kept until needed.
Mr t__:^)
The time based cards also have the expiration date. You have up to one year after the expiration date to transfer the card to a new one or lose the rides. The time based cards can not be transferred- they must be used or you lose!
OK, as I expected the "card" is the same so both have a useful life, i.e. expiration date.
Second subject, the new "machine" issued cards are physically different, but eye assume otherwise the same (value & expireation) ?
Mr t__:^)
Let me try this way. Suppose you showed me a MetroCard. Just by looking at the card (without inserting it into my computer or withtout your swiping the card and looking at the info on my screen), there is no way I could tell what *kind* od MetroCard you possess. It is precisely this that concerns station agents since we expect this to be the source of many problems after 7/4/1998 ,let's be Y2K compliant:-).
Many people will want to convert a card with money (ride based cards--that is a $60 card which is good for 44 rides to a $63 card by giving me $3 and saying make it a monthly card.
I repeat- the official policy is that a full fare MetroCard can *not* mix time (unlimited rides) and value (10 rides, 15 rides, etc.) A reduced fare MetroCard can mix the two, and can have up to two time periods on the card which can be refilled. A full fare card can *not* be refilled which I expect will be the source of another hot issue. I expect tons of unhappy riders after 7/4 until they learn and accept the policy.
**opinions expressed are personal and not those of MTA or NYCT***
Subway-buff,
You're right but that's the grand plan. However if you're realy clever the S/N on the card will give you a clue as to what kind of card it is. If they use a unique series of numbers it might help, the customer. But since Token Booths issue cards with graphics, a smart customer, who wants to buy more than one type of card, could buy one at home and hope that the office location, or the local Deli sells a different card. I've also seen cards that someone took a sizzor to, so long as they clip in the right place that 'll work too.
Mr t__:^)
I was visiting the old neighborhood and noticed new steelwork extending out from the structure supporting the Northbound local track. I didn't cross the street so did not see southbound side. Does anyone know the purpose of this? Possibly looked like supports for a platform. If this is the case whats the point of this platform?
It's quite possible that Brighton Beach station is being rehabilitated. A few years back, I remember seeing the Coney Island-bound local track being rebuilt; D trains were switched over to the express track before entering the station.
Could be a setup for an elevator, to make the station ADA accessible. There is a sizable 'aged' population in the area...
-Hank
Not much to report - the strike is still on, no talks are scheduled, and it seems that the strike is not top of the newscast/front page news any more. Still waiting for TWU to pull its next boneheaded move. SEPTA is still rattling its sabre to run El/Subway/Subway- Surface service but has not yet done so, although many trains are still to be heard in tunnels and seen on els. Life goes on...
69th St. Terminal is abuzz with activity from those TWlosers. Though not as vicious as they were last week, they still hang around the berths at the front terminal and post their signs on posts all around.
Of course one can still see our city rapid transit service every now and again. I saw the El coming out of Spring Garden last week(forget seeing those M-4's for a while). Work on the tracks for the 10 and 13 in West and SW Philly is halted, giving schmucks like me the chance to safely measure gauge.
Coverage of the event is, as Bobw said, not exactly front page anymore(not even in the Daily News!-Philly's equivalent to the NY Post, if such a thing is imaginable, or necessary).
More and more people I talk to about the strike seemed convinced that this is the last time they get screwed by SEPTA.
Even a transit such as yours truly is really starting to get comfy in the driver's seat of that Taurus than next to some smelly bum on the El.
I'm afraid that if enough people get to thinking that way....
I'm afraid it's going to be the same for many people who have even abandoned the commuter rail lines because of the crowds and found that driving isn't really that bad (except for the cost of parking, and, well, they'll live with it).
Of course, the TWU didn't help itself at all this morning with the pickets at Wayne Jct/Roberts Yard, which shut down R1, R2, R7 and R8. Smart guys! I've also been told that some enterprising TWU types are invading Suburban Station with megaphones in the afternoon rush giving confusing information to waiting passengers on which trains are showing up when. These guys continue to outdo themselves in their relentless pursuit of support from the inconvenienced public.
Just when you think it doesn't get any dopier... Of course, when your leader is Steve Brookens, the poster boy for intelligence, what do you expect?
Brookens' IQ tests out the same as his shoe size!
(and he must have small feet at that!)
He's taking Philly Transit down the tubes, with his union lemmings following right along.
JackÑ
You're so right about the car and the general attitudes of people, especially in Philadelphia.
Philly residents have an "I'll get it done, no matter the obstacles" attitude. What that toothless moron (Steve Brookens) and his robotic minions don't realize is that they could ultimately LOSE jobs if ridership goes too far down, no-layoff clause or not.
Personally, I think the longer SEPTA management holds out, the better. Eventually, the strike fund will run out and the TWU folks will either starve, get jobs where REAL work for REAL hours is demanded (not showing up for two hours of standby and getting paid for eight, or getting away with a suspension the first time you're caught drunk or high), negotiate, or accept SEPTA's terms and return to work.
IMHO, TWU Local 234 must be broken for the good of the city of Philadelphia. If that happens, SEPTA management better make good changes for the city, because if things don't go right, they'll have no one to blame but themsevles.
BTW, I really think SEPTA management goofed this morning. They should not have sought an injunction against the BLE (who represents motormen on Regional Rail lines), whose members had a legitimate safety concern (the TWU consists of many old-time unionists who know of only two ways to resolve disputes: their way or violently). What SEPTA should have done is sought an injunction to prevent the TWU from picketing at any SEPTA location where workers aren't on strike.
And it continues...
Michael
Does anyone know exactly what happens to a token once its deposited by a rider? Where does it go, does it get checked for counterfeiting, how many people have access to them etc, until it goes back into another rider's pocket? I'd appreciate any info!!! Thanks
Jason, Tokens ...
We have them delivered to TA Revenue Dept - 2nd floor
One Jay Street Brooklyn. They DO check them there because we never get a deposit in our account that matches what we said was in the bags.
Over the years the TA & "privates" (bus operators) have had all kinds of things put in the fareboxes & turnstiles, e.g. various transportation tokens, game tokens, slugs, foreign money, and misc other items.
I joined the AVA (Am Vecturist Assoc = trans token group) so I could ID what I have and sell it for more than the junk man will pay. I now have started a collection of MetroCards with unique graphics on the back. The AVA is a friendly group, I would be happy to recommend you for membership if interest in tokens is serious.
Mr t__:^)
Several things can happen. At various times the station agent will empty the turnstiles. Once we do that, we sell the token to someone else or we can send it to transit as money. Let's say we have to send in $350.00. We can send in $200.00 in cash and 100 tokens ($150.00),or we can leave the token in the booth for asomeone else to resell, or if we have a booth that is not open 24 hours, we could loan the token to the part-time booth and they could do the same thing .When the part time booth closes, the token could go back to another booth.
(I am not getting too specific for security reasons)
A: Does anyone know if Seattle has a "real" subway?
B:Has anyone seen the cars for VA SEPTA is using to help ease the burden on the RR because of the strike?
I'm heading to Alaska next month through Seattle.
As I understand the Seattle Subway, it is a route through Downtown for their Buses. According to maps I have seen, there are several stations. Whether it is only for trolley, buses running on electric power (I understand Seattle Trolleys may be duel powered), or also for internal combustion I will find out and pass on the info upon my return. If there are those that know, I would also the answer.
You are aware that Seattle has a Waterfront Trolley Line, using Australian Equipment, and an overhead Monorail. Both are rather short, and limited to one route. Their transit system has a web site. I'll look it up, and if you are interested pass it on.
That should be "Trolley Buses", which may be dual powered.
I also believe that there has been talk of a Future LRV route, so the tunnel may be tracked, although no rail vehicles presently use it.
Try http://transit.metrokc.gov/
I've been spoiled by AOL favorite places....this is what comes up when I access it. kc is for King County (a la Kingdome)
By the way Their bus system is quite extensive and not limited to only trolley buses. The Waterfront Trolley is Identified as route 99 and can be accessed through the Bus icon.
The Seattle metropolitan government (I don't recall what it's called) is planning a whole regional transit system, called Sound Transit (a pun on Puget Sound and it being a sound means of travel). It will include light rail, commuter rail, and regional express buses. It's not just a King County system, as the light rail will extend when complete to Tacoma and the commuter rail is planned to be at least 80 miles long (mainly a coastal route south to Seattle and then inland to Tacoma and points south). They indeed intend to run the Light Rail through the existing bus subway in downtown Seattle.
The website is http://www.soundtransit.org
Seattle busses that go through the bus tunnel are duel powered: they switch to overhead wires when in the tunnel. The tunnel has 5 stations, is about 1.5 miles long, and goes from the convention center SE to the international section. Fares are free within the 5 tunnel stations (the downtown area has free bus fares during the day). When I was there, it appeared that the tunnel could easily be converted to LRV use.
A. Seattle has a trolleybus tunnel with rails in the pavement. If you want to call this a "subway", it is underground, but it's not a subway in the traditional sense. (Of course, in Toronto, as in Britain, the subway is an underground pedestrian passageway.) The rails await future LRT development.
B. I saw a news report that SEPTA was leasing the 6 cars from VRE for the duration of the transit strike. From a quick glance, they appear to be rebuilt Budd RDC's that were purchased from MBTA and rehabbed without engines.
The subway is also an underground passage way in Albany, NY.
In Washington DC besides METRO the "subawy" connects the Capital to the Senate and House office buildings. They have little trains with double overhead trolleys for the power. The senate just installed a new automatic one a few years ago but preserved the manually operated one also. There is a sidewalk to walk along side if you are ambitious or do not want to wait.
In Albany its a walkway PERIOD
Question, What is more expensive than travelling on Concord? Answer, the new Heathrow Airport Express here in London. The fare for the single fourteen mile journey from Paddington Station, London to Heathrow Airport is £10.00 or approx $15.00. Does anyone know of a more expensive price for public tranport on a price per mile basis.
They're talking about having such a high price for the few miles from LaGuardia to Midtown. That's the price of having a system that's run independently of the subway, with a new ROW all the way from Queens Plaza to LGA. The idea is that it will make a rail journey to the CBD more acceptable to CEOs, because of who won't be on the train.
I personally believe they would be better off just extending the N another couple of miles, and attracting those who ride the subway and commuter rail every day. Let the CEOs take a cab or limo. They probably will anyway.
It is an interesting idea of pricing to discourage certain social groups. With the Heathrow Express I feel they are just trying to re-coup some of the money they spent on it. I am due to ride it at the end of the month and will send a report via this site.
You have to understand the (pre-Giuliani) history of civil liberties in New York. To the Port Authority, a subway connection meant homeless drug addicts and alcoholics would be able to get to the airports, where they would be able to panhandle, harrass, threaten, play radios at any volume, sleep, urinate on the floor, shoplift etc. in accord with their civil rights. Remember, the Port Authority also runs the Port Authority bus terminal, where throughout the 1980s you couldn't catch a bus without stepping over someone who hadn't slept in years. Hence the desire to exclude all mass transit or, if that was not possible, to build a separate light rail system with a $10 to $15 change. The airlines are on board with this as well.
The courts have lightened up a little since then, and public behavior has improved. But some still think of air transport as an elite service for elite people, and fear anything that could tarnish that image. I assume none of this is an issue in the UK, where anti-social behavior is confined to the occasional terrorist bomb.
In response to the message posted by Larry Littlefield. Indeed we do have the occasional bomb, but thankfully not very often. We do have down and outs but they are seldom a problem and are removed from the system by staff and tranport police. We also have upholstered seats, train indicator boards, vending machines and telephones on the platforms, one day travelcards (approx $5.00). We dont have tokens, express trians, or anything looking like a "Redbird".
Paint that old Circle line stock red and you'd come pretty close to a redbird :-)
(That one Yellow Pages train is neat but those Circle line trains could seriously use a paint job...)
I thought the rolling stock on the Circle Line was rather new when I was in London in 1978. Stainless steel to boot, with four sets of doors per side on each car. The District Line, on the other hand, had older equipment, some of which may have been red. I still kick myself for not riding the Metropolitan Line between Baker St. and Paddington. You can bet I will if I'm ever in London again.
At one time most of the Underground stock was painted red and it is a great shame that they went for the aluminium self colour. They have now decided that doors should be red so that people can see them and the fronts of cars are also red. The nearest we come to a "Redbird$ however is on the Metropolitan Line from Baker Street heading into the suburbs where there is express running in 1962 trains. If any of you get the chance to come over you must try this ride. The speed is approx 60mph but feels more like 80 and with indifferent track and non -existant suspension you feel you are about to meet your maker. One thing missing though - no rivets and guards on the front
Does that include the original 1863 segment? How about trackage? Aren't there only 2 tracks?
No, the original section was from Paddington to the east (I don't have the exact eastern destination off the top of my head but it might have been Moorgate). The suburban extensions were added later and the Metropolitan line has always been run as at least two separate services (Hence the Hammersmith and City Line has its own colour).
There are only two tracks between Baker Street and Finchley Road, but then four tracks all the way to Moor Park (outside London). If you include the Jubilee Line and the British Rail Marylebone service then there are eight tracks between West Hamstead and Wembley, and six tracks between Wembley and Harrow. After Harrow, diesel (not owned by LT) and electric trains share the same tracks. The diesel trains have recently been replaced and have a very smooth ride, so it can't be the track that is the problem.
I assume that the Picadilly Route to the Airport will remain to service those living and with business between the Airport and the City proper.
What's happening on the other side of town. Will the pedestrian tunnel to Greenwich remain between Island Garden and Greenwich when the Jubilee is finished? Are there any plans to extend DLR into Greenwich. I can't think of any place in the states where we built a tunnel to walk under a major (or minor for that matter) river.
I'm not sure about the fate of the foot tunnel, but the Docklands Light Railway line is under construction even as we speak, this and the Jubilee line should both be in action by the year 2000. In addition, there is a new light rail system under construction in Croydon (a major business area on the Southern edge of London) which will have on-street running and an interchange with the Underground at Wimbledon. This is mainly making use of disused and under-used branch lines previously owned by British Rail.
After these? The Metropolitan line may well be diverted to Watford Junction station (the current station is badly positioned for Watford town centre and interchange with other railways). People are always trying to think of a use for the East London Line, and northward and southward extensions are being discussed, but this line has always been hampered by the fact that it serves no useful destinations (incidently, this line is also based upon a foot tunnel under the River Thames). There are major projects which are thought about from time to time but the timescale from identification of need to final opening is 20 years minimum in London, so don't hold your breath.
In Chicago, the city built tunnels for foot and horse traffic under the Chicago River in the 1860s because the bridges were open more than they were closed due to heavy river traffic. There was a tunnel at LaSalle Street across the main branch and at Washington and VanBuren across the south branch.
The tunnels were co-opted for streetcar service when cable cars were put in (Chicago had the biggest cable car network in the world at one time, but it was all gone by 1906, if I recall correctly) because cable cars aren't compatible with drawbridges, which all the downtown bridges were and are. They stayed as streetcar tunnels when the system converted to electric trolleys. The tunnels went out of use when the streetcars went out of service.
Steve,the section of the old metropolitan now forms part of the Hammersmith and City. The first underground railway ran from Paddington to Farringdon and was called the Metropolitan Railway. It was subsequently extended to Aldgate Amersham, Watford and Uxbridge. To save confusion LUL now show the Hammersmtih and Whitchapel section as seperate lines.
Thanks for the info. If I'm ever in London again, I will definitely have to check that line out. It's a piece of history.
I was in London last summer and the vast majority (if not ALL) circle line trains have been repainted in LUL's Red, white and blue (with all-red ends) and have had the insides refurbished to the standard of the new Central and Jubilee line stock (which I rode this spring). The all aluminum-grey type trains are being repainted (Piccadilly stock is presently being refurbished by Bombardier Wakefield) and so the only lines using "ugly" stock to any extent are the Met, District, Victoria, and Northern.
Thank Goodness I got to ride the 1938 Tube Stock. If thsy were not Red Birds, they were not Brightliners.
Oh. Sorry you Brits think they are Crimson Birds and Carmine Lights
You still can ride on 1938 tube stock. A few are running in full passenger service on the Isle of Wight (about 2 and a half hours from London). Unfortunately they are not red any more. In my opinion, the best looking trains on the Underground were the 1930's-1950's OPQR stock family which ran on the surface lines (District, Metropolitan etc). With flared toplights and body sides at platform level, they looked like nothing before (district line trains had a very American look up to that point) or since. Very distnctive and totally unique.
Back in 1978, I remember seeing and riding some rolling stock on the District Line dated 1926. Of course, because the District and Metropolitan Lines were built by cut-and-cover, their tunnels and trains are larger than the deep tube lines.
WE seem to have forgotten about the new Heathrow Express. Once again does anyone know of a more expensive train journey. The Heathrow Express is approx $15.00 for 15 miles (single journey) This means that for a family of four to see off Granny who is making a trip to NY to see some R33's and 36's before they go, would pay approx $120.00 for the round trip.
At least in London there is a choice of how to get to Heathrow by rail, and Paddington (the London terminus) is so badly sited that I suspect that for most people the time savings are overestimated. Victoria to Heathrow? Forget Paddington, take the District line to Hammersmith and cross the platform to the Piccadily line. Easy. Many interchanges in central London are so bad that the distance to be walked between lines is greater then some of distances between stations.
I can't remember the exact fares, but some through the Channel Tunnel are rather steep. When first opened, the fare from Ashford to Calais was exactly the same price as the fare from London to Paris, which made it somewhat excessive on a per mile basis. I will check the exact prices and report back.
Paddington isn't that badly situated. I don't know what's right around there but it's connected to 4 Underground lines (District, Circle, Bakerloo, Hammersmith & City). The Circle serves "the City" main business area pretty well. Even so, most visitors will still have to transfer to the Tube to get to where they are going; I guess it will depend on where you're staying whether or not the Heathrow express is worthwhile.
By the way, the H&C and Piccadilly transfer at Hammersmith isn't across the platform. It's across the street (two seperate stations). It's a pretty busy intersection and I wouldn't want to have to do it with luggage and your family in tow as you try to make the transfer...
The District and Piccadilly transfer is across the platform (or up and over to the other platform - 4 tracks 2 island platforms) but the District line branch that serves Paddington doesn't serve Hammersmith.
Now that you mention it:
Some transfers, or interchanges, between Underground lines do involve long walks. I remember going to the British Museum in 1978, and having to change from the Piccadilly to, I believe, the Central Line (it's solid red on route maps). I don't remember where I got off from the Piccadilly - somewhere between Knightsbridge and Piccadilly Circus - but it was a long, long walk to the Central Line, and then it was maybe a one- or two-stop ride to, I believe, Tottenham Court Rd., where the Museum is located. Almost all of my Underground travel was on the Piccadilly and District Lines.
No, actually the train is £5.00 or $8.00. I just took it and I have to say it's the nicest train I've ever been on - period. This train does the 14 mile trip in 15 minutes which is a vast improvement over the previous 1 hour journey on the tube. The original tube fare is £3.30 ($5.30). I think paying a $2.70 premium for saving 45 minutes is fair. Most expensive per mile public transport must be the $4.00 Airlink BUS from Newark Penn Station to Newark Airport which runs less frequently than HE. This 5 mile trip (maybe) at almost $1/mile took twice as long as the Heathrow Express journey for one third the distance. That's a ripoff!!! But you're only other option is a cab so you're screwed.
Speaking of the Airlink Bus, the Port Authority of NY and NJ made the same move at Newark that we don't want them to make in New York. Aside from union/bureaucracy issues, why not just run the PATH to and around the airport? They'd have gotten a lot more Manhattan riders by doing it that way. But again, they didn't want the homeless to have easy access to the airport, since once they have chosen a public place as a permanent residence they are difficult to remove.
I agree that running the PATH to and around the NY airports makes a lot of sense, especially if the free transfer between the subway and the PATH is ever implemented. However, I think the homeless problem is the least of the concerns regarding this project. Clearly the union/bureaucracy issue is a major roadblock especially if you're considering budget problems as a subset of bureaucracy issues. In addition, do we really want New Jersey to continue its ever increasing ownership of key NYC transportation elements?
How does NJ "own" any of NYC's transportation elements? NJ doesn't own the PATH, the Port Authority does (a bi-state agency). And before you say the PATH only benefits NJ, as Mayor Giuliani claimed in a speech some time ago (in which he said that NJ should take on the full costs of running the PATH and the PA subsidy should end because there is no benefit to NYC), look at the facts. Sure, the PATH is used primarily by NJ commuters to get to NYC (in a sense benefitting NJ). But think about what those people do when they get to NYC: They eat meals, go shopping, attend cultural events (aka SPEND MONEY), and go to work (a.k.a. pay NYC payroll taxes). So who is the real beneficiary of having those people come to NYC every day? If the PATH weren't there, or if the fare were much higher than it is, how many of those people would find work in NJ rather than find an alternative method of commuting?
-Dave
The fare will rise to £10.00 ($15.00)once the whole length is open at the moment the fare is £5.00
The 5,2,7 lines are in desprate need for Silverbirds. The R-36/33 are falling apart. To make them better is to make the Seating like the R-33/36 and that will be a great help. They do not need the R-142 to hit cause this is the best Model in NYCTA history. They will save alot of money. Is this a good idea.
No, No and No, you are trouncing on Nostalgia.
An the R142 won't? The redbirds are quite literally rusting to bits, I can easily walk up to one and remove a piece of metal from the body with my fingers...Nostalgia or not, these cars are well overdue for replacement. Although it would be nice if they repainted the Flushing trains to their World's Fair scheme before they were retired. These have to be the most tired cars in the system.
-Hank
I take it that the R-62s will be dubbed as the Silverbirds. The R-32s were billed as the Brightliners when they made their first appearance in 1964, and IMHO, this title should be reserved for them exclusively, as they were the first production model stainless steel cars (the R-11s were a pilot group).
I get a big kick out of those people passing by a local to wait for an express. How many times will the local beat the express to the next express stop? How many times in my job on the M line as a NYCT motorman will a passenger ask me at DeKalb if I'm express to 36 St. and since I'm not will wait there for an N. And an N will never pass me! How many times do I meet a B at Pacific St. & half my train runs off even giving up their seats and squeeze onto the packed B? After this happens since the Express track timers start south of Prospect Ave., how many times is that B only pulling out of 36 St.as I'm pulling in, or if that doesn't happen, I can see that B rounding the curve entering 18 Ave. as I'm entering 71 St. Folks, that express still has to cover the same mileage as that local. The running time difference is less than missing your train.
I think the whole thing is mostly phsycological (did I spell that correctly?).
Deep down, I think we all know that it really isn't worth it to stand on the platform and wait ten minutes for an express train when we could get on the local train already waiting in the station and reach our destination in roughly the same time, if not less. I think it's just the idea that the train will be skipping several stops consecutively and operating at a faster speed.
In fact, this past Sunday, I was on a Manhattan-bound #3 train going up to 72nd Street, but when we got to Chambers Street, the conductor announced that the train would be making all the local stops. Out of instinct, I jumped off the train and didn't realise until the train left that what I did was incredibly stupid.
You are of course correct i n some instances but if an IRT local is as fast from 96th to 42nd as an express this is bad operational policy or technique. It is ludicrous that the additive dwell at some 6 stations does not slow the local. As to local/express issues in Bklyn, it seems to this observer from afar that the much discussed Man Br megafiasco has seriously degraded BMT Southern division services in general. One can only hope this will be cleaned up,
I think the MTA has decided that more frequent headways are better than faster rides, on the grounds that a minute of waiting is peceived to be as long as two minutes of riding. They did a study that I heard about some time ago. Take the F service. If half the trains were local to Church, and the other half went express to Coney Island, those south of Church would ride faster but everyone would wait longer. Those at the top of the line would gain nothing.
Of course, of the subways were 100 percent reliable and everyone knew the schedule, they wouldn't have to wait regardless of the headway. But the subway isn't that reliable, and people are used to arriving whenever and taking the next train.
One way to speed service is longer walks, fewer lines, and more distantly spaced stations. The IND was built this way, but one the IRT and BMT the locals are very local. Plus there is one too many lines on the southern division, but the lines aren't spaced in such a way to make eliminating any one of them practical. So headways are longer than they might be on each of the five lines.
OK, we can forget 100-percent reliability, but shouldn't the NYC subway (not to mention my PATH system) lift the veil of mystery about its schedules?
Until my fairly recent forays into subway buff-dom, I would have sworn there were NO actual schedules for the NYC subway, just maybe guidelines about the average length of headways at certain times of day.
I was floored when I stumbled across a rack that contained, along with the usual lack-of-service updates, a few paper C and E schedules. That's the only time I've ever even seen schedules out in the open. I could probably win bar bets with longtime New Yorkers by betting them that such things exist. A lot of people I know would never believe it.
I haven't tried asking for them at token booths --- life is short, after all. But I'm going to take a wild guess here and say it's probably unlikely that I'll get all the schedules I need without visiting several booths and fighting off hordes of impatient token-buyers.
What other transit system --- train, bus, ferry, hovercraft, tourist mule train --- doesn't have gobs of schedules stuffed in overflowing racks everywhere you look, and more posted behind clear plastic?
Shouldn't the NYC subway do this? Isn't this a relatively cheap solution to the occasional long waits that annoy people?
Aside from the obvious fact that people are just accustomed to waiting for the subway, what am I missing here? Any info or opinions on this?
These schedules are available on the MTA's Web site as well as at some stations. They're probably of some usefulness for late-night travellers faced with 20-minute headways. During the days, service is frequent enough on most lines that the schedules don't serve much purpose beyond giving one an idea of the average headways (indeed, many of them say "frequent service" in lieu of giving actual times during rush hours).
A few more thoughts:
I agree that schedules of any kind are of virtually no use during peak periods, and of limited use at many other times of day. And your're right, it's those late-night travelers who would benefit most.
I say they sorely need more access to schedules, for a number of reasons.
Safety, for one. While I realize subway crime rates have dropped, waiting 20 minutes for a train in the middle of the night is, relatively speaking, one of the more dangerous things you can do on the subway system. (Aside from being a singularly pointless activity).
People who find themselves traveling late at night on lines they're not familiar with, say, when they're coming home from a nightclub or party, aren't going to be carrying 8 1/2-by-11 computer printouts of the schedules from the Web.
They won't be carrying the MTA-issue schedules either, unless it's a line they use every day.
And I think they're unlikely to find them at the token booth when they arrive at the station, because it seems as if only the biggest full-time token booths carry them at all. They can ask the token clerk -- but only if one is on duty at that time of night, in their part of the station, ... yada, yada, yada..
There's no need for it to be this complicated.
These late-nite travelers could really benefit if schedules were simply posted OUTSIDE the turnstiles, perhaps right inside the entrances to each station. If it's 12:30 a.m., and the schedule board says 12:28, 12:48, etc., you could go get a cup of coffee and a paper and come back, take a taxi, or maybe take a city bus -- instead of paying a buck fifty to stand around like an idiot.
Speaking of buses, the MTA has seen fit to provide schedules for those, both at bus stops ("outside the turnstiles" -- BEFORE you pay) and on paper schedules that are available inside the buses (OK, they're sometimes available).
Why shouldn't the subway get the same treatment?
By the way, I forgot, there was one place I actually noticed subway schedules posted, on an island platform, I think on the A,C,E tracks somewhere around 14th Street. Even though I was there in the evening, when headways were relatively short, it was nice to know how often each train was running, so I could make a more intelligent choice of which one to board. It saved me a few minutes.
And for most New Yorkers, a few minutes is a very precious thing.
Schedules should be posted near the booth(any booth) at the location where the map is (or should be) posted. If they are missing you should call the station manager and ask them why the schedule is not posted. It is the job of **supervision** to post service notices and schedules. As far as schedules in the booth, as a station agent, I can only give my customers what I have in my booth. If I am out of schedules all I can do is tell my supervisor who may or may not have any schedules to give me. If they are out they have to order them from materiel control which may also be out. I agree it is frustrating.
The manager's phone number is posted on every booth, near the badge of the agent on duty.Please call the manager with your concerns which are very genuine.
I am not a supervisor, nor was I a supervisor, but several times I have paged a supervisor to be told that none was available. It is then that I went to Plan B- asking my cleaner to check at other booths at my station for needed supplies , and yes- I have had orther booths call me for supplies to send with the cleaner if I had the extras.
To reduce the chances of being a victim at night, I suggest you wait in the area marked with yellow "Off Hour Waiting Area". These areas are eityher in plain view of the booth or have closed circuit TV cameras and call boxes to allow a customer to speak with the booth. I personally have used these boxes and found that the person in the booth does answer the box. Recently I had an incident involving a homeless person who wass openly drunk (and still drinking) harass other passengers. I found a call-back box and the booth sent me a cop who promptly poured out the booze and ejected the customer to the approval of the other customers on the platform.
On behalf of NYCT, I am sorry your experience riding the subway was not a pleasant experience and truly hope that your next ride will be a more pleasant experience. I regret that you experienced inconvenience.
One of the more positive things the CTA has accomplished recently is to print/post "station specific" schedules for ALL the stations of its rapid rail system. This was done because of recent lengthening of headway’s from the relatively short headway’s Chicago rider’s have historically been accustomed to. With the schedule in hand you can "time yourself" to be a the station to catch a Brown Line train at Wellington station, say 12:04 PM instead of guessing at when the service will arrive when running "every 12 minutes" or "frequent service", the jargon previously used . The CTA said the schedules would also help the rider’s to verify the train’s were operating "on time". I question the merit of that statement.
The format CTA is using is pretty straight forward. It has room on it for the schedules, a map and a little advertising to help defray some of the cost.
Keep in mind that CTA has only roughly 140 stations vs. the many NYCTA has, but it is an idea MTA should probably look in to.
I agree that the schedules are a great idea -- more so the large poster on the platform and in the station than the pamphlets. I see few people taking the printed schedules but a lot of people reading the posted schedule. Incidentally, they always put the platform schedule in the shelter in stations that have them, but the other schedule poster is all over the place, sometimes near the agent's booth and the turnstiles, sometimes far away.
Does anyone remember the 1970's-vintage signs on the entrances to stations that read "23 minutes to the Loop"? The time they gave for the trip downtown was always rather, um, optomistic, to say the least.
Axtually those nominal times date from the 60's or maybe the late 50's at least I remember them from my teenage years. They may have been nore real when the structure had not yet decayed--I remember when the Jackson Park line instituted permanent slow orders from South Park Way-MLK, to Stony.
I remember seeing "20 minutes to the Loop" signs at Bryn Mawr on the Red Line.
During the Memorial Day CERA weekend a railfan friend of mine pointed out the "10 Minutes To the Loop" sign at Belmont. I can't understand why it take my Ravenswood train takes 15 - 20 minutes to make a trip. The 10 minutes must apply to the subway!
It's safe to assume that the 10-minute reference is by subway. The Ravenswood makes several more stops between Belmont and the Loop, plus there are several extremely sharp curves which must be negotiated at slower speeds. The subway run, on the other hand, is mostly straight lines, with one right angle turn from Division onto State., and two 45-degree turns.
I would have to agree that most of it is psychological. I just don't care for the idea of having to stop at each and every station along the way, even if a local goes zooming along between stops and an express plods along. I also have to admit that if I were in the same situation as you were; i. e., being on an express and hearing an announcement that the train would be making all local stops, I would also get off. If I made a mistake, so be it. I don't take locals unless I board, or have to get off, at a local stop. As for the B train, I've always felt it moved along at a good clip along 4th Ave., at least when the slant R-40s ran on that line.
BTW, what exactly happened that made you feel the way you did?
Not always. But a goo example of this type of idiocy occured to me last night on Queens Blvd. Changeing from the 7 to the R at 74/Roosevelt due to the GO at Quensboro Plaza, I had just missed an F train, and observed several people get pissed behind me. Turning around (and smacking my head into a support beam. DOH!) I saw the sign indicating that all trains were running express to Queens Plaza. Looking down the tracks, I coul see the 5 red lamps of the block on the track, and boarded the next R train. Announcements were made, and STILL no one moved from express platform, looking toward an oncoming E train. Needless to say, my R crossed in front of the E (leaving before the E stopped) and that's that.
I also discovered that off-peak, you're better off on the local than the express, since the last 2 times I changed from the 1 at 96st to the 2 waiting at the plat, I would end up on the same local train at Chambers St. (I thought the first time, and checked the car number the second time)
-Hank
In such a situation, if you're headed from, say, City College or Columbia, to the WTC or the Battery, you could make a case for staying on the local. (An express junkie defending a local. Go figure.) A lot depends on where you're boarding and your ultimate destination. One thing I've noticed is that the West Side IRT has probably the shortest headways of any line. At least that's my perception. You never have to wait more than 2-3 minutes for any train on that line. Of course, with the Lenox tunnel work going on, things may be different right now.
It seems that for every D train there are 2 F trains and 3 N trains. Anyone have any figures to back this up?
Most passengers including myself take a gamble when it comes to boarding the local if it arrives before an express. I do it all the time if a C local arrives before the A express. It's all about luck; should I board the local or wait for the express which you hope is just a few stations away.
I just wrote a story about that and I found this I cant believe this I ride the M train alot of times.and I got one quesdtion how do you become a motorman because I want when I get older please
In addition, what type of training is required? Is it like a class in a room or is it on the hand training?How long is the training for becoming a motorman?
For training to become a train operator, you go to a classroom situation for a few weeks, go out to the various yards with the instructors to work on the various types of cars in different yards, break in the various yards& terminals with experienced train operators in your division , go back to classroom, then break in on the various lines =A to R or 1 to 7 with experienced road train operators depending if you are in the A or B division. Right now all this training takes about 6 months depending on division. The training rigors are always subject to change. Thats it in a quick nutshell.
As mentioned earlier Motorman/ train operator is a promotion from within nycta. station agent, cleaner stations or car equipment conductor. training is split between classroom instruction and a majority is hands on operation of equipment. "A" division number lines is 75 working days of classrrom and break in and "B" division lettered lines was or probably still is 97 days. From what motor instructors and old time motormen have told me after graduation from "School Car" 1 year used to be spent solely in yard operation. now I guess its like everyone says "Microwave training" heres your equipment and good luck! from one of the many employee news letters something not too long ago was mentioned on a SIMULATOR to train new operators......
The motorman (train operator) position is a promotion. You should keep an eye out for "The Chief" weekly newspaper (usually red masthead). That has all the civil service positions. Get your foot into the TA door. Take any TA entrance exam: bus operator, conductor, token clerk, TA cleaner, etc. Have a good record in your entry level position, take the train operator promotional exam and wait to be called. Be patient. TA entry entry level exams are not given very often, so be on a constant lookout.
Yes, you're right. I think many people realize that they are saving only a few minutes (if any at all) when passing up a local for an express that's yet to arrive or run from a local to an express, but that's just a characteristic of the NYC subway straphanger. In the book, "Uptown Downtown" Stan Fischler (I hope I spelled his name correctly) touched on this. He said that New Yorkers "have a positive addiction for riding express trains", and it's true. I will usually pick an express over the local simply because I don't want to make the local stops.
Let's say you have a seat on a platform bench, or are standing but with plenty of room. Getting in a crowded local SRO might seem like a worse deal that sitting some more, then getting on a crowded express, even if you will not save time. Perhaps even if you might lose time.
On the other hand, lets say the express is packed and you can get a seat on the local. Perhaps it might even be worth losing a couple of minutes to get the seat, so you can read your newspaper in comfort.
[He [Stan Fischler] said that New Yorkers have a positive addiction for riding express trains", and it's true. I will usually
pick an express over the local simply because I don't want to make the local stops.]
That's one way to look at it. Riding a local with all the attendant stops can be frustrating. On the other hand, what I find most frustrating of all is riding on a slow-moving express and watching the locals zoom on by - something that appear endemic on the Lexington Avenue line.
Yeah, that 6 local does seem to fly, and I take it sometimes instead of the 4 or 5 because it's less crowded and I can find a seat (as Larry Littlefield notes).
As for making local stops being frustrating, this is especially true when you're standing. If you have a high center of gravity, as I do, each stop means hanging on tighter to a handhold, and tensing one set of leg muscles to avoid falling over while the train is stopping, then tensing another set when it lurches into motion again.
Standing during a long express run is much less jarring.
Locals zoom along on just about every 4-track trunk line. Maybe the signals on local tracks are timed differently to keep them moving along, simply because they have to stop at every station along the route.
BTW, Brian Cudahy says the exact same thing about New Yorkers having a positive addiction for riding express trains in Under the Sidewalks of New York. That's how I feel, too. I hate stopping at every station.
its just a frame of mind to think you're getting somewhere faster by riding the express. you probably save 3 -4 minutes byt transferring to and express and most of the time the local you get back onto to get to your local stop is the same local train you've gotten off of to get on the express... As for rush hour the time wasted running across a platform to catch and express is silly okay its really stupid if your gotten a seat on a local to run to a express and stand up for the remainder of the ride!!!
I've found that one express is actually slower than the local. I take the A/C/E from West 4th to 34th every day. Frequently both an express and a local will leave West 4th at the same time. The local beats the express EVERY TIME.
Sometimes the southbound F from Jay St will go express to run past a delay in service. You might think this would bother me, since I live on a local stop, and that I would wait at Jay for the next local. Instead I'm generally pleased as punch, jump on the express, and get off at 7th Aveune, where I have the option of a 15 minute walk, a change to a bus, or a wait for a local. The pleasure of shortening the ride exceeds the loss of another wait, or a walk.
Inbound, on the other hand, if a train went express I would be waiting at Prospect Park 15th, and the express would bypass me altogether. I'd never see it. It's a lose, lose for those at local stops. And, inbound you have to have reliability as to the length of the trip. Otherwise, you have to allow extra time to be sure you arrive at your denstination on time, a de facto increase in your commute.
Where one-way express service is (or could be) implemented, perhaps the TA should skip it inbound the morning in favor of shorter headways, but do it outbound in the afternoon -- since you can pick up either a local or express train in a few minutes anyway, then decide if you want to switch from local to express or take a little walk (or, in some cases, bus). That is, perhaps the 6 should be all local inbound in the morning. Perhaps the F should be half express (with the G extended to Church) in the afternoon.
In the old days ('70's), during the summer on the B division, you had a much better chance of getting an Air-Conditioned train on the expresses.
Some examples:
Brooklyn:
A train: local in Brooklyn (Mostly all Non AC R-10's)
E train: express in Brooklyn (Lot's of AC R-40's)
QJ or M train: local in Brooklyn (just about all Non AC R27/30's)
D train: express in Brooklyn (quite a few AC R-42's and AC R-44's)
RR train: local in Brooklyn (just about all Non AC R27/30's)
N or B train: express in Brooklyn (better chance of getting AC R-42 than the RR.
Queens:
EE train: local in Queens (just about all non AC R-16's)
GG train: local in Queens (just about all non AC R-32's and others)
E train: express in Queens (lots of AC R-40's)
F train: express in Queens (lots of AC R-40's, R-44's and R-46's)
Bronx:
CC train: local in Bronx (all non AC-the oldest stuff running.)
D train: express in Bronx (quite a few AC R-42's and R-44's)
Of course, there were exceptions, but it seemed that the newer trains with AC ran on the expresses.
But in the 70's air conditioning was extremely undependable. Only 100 of the 300 slants had A/C and while all 100 modified 40's and all 400 R42's had A/C, it was hard to find a good air conditioned car. And in the case of the R42, the worst problem was all those dark cars caused by B/O convertors.
Ah Express, Local hopping it's a science !
For 11 yrs EYE rode the 1/9 dwn from 116 St, at 96th I would view the amount of PAX on the platform (I was only going to 34th, i.e. Exp would save 4 stops) & if the platform was empty I could run to Express side & look both ways, then run back before lcl dr closed, oh boy that was fun ... the feeling of satification that I had got there first.
My worst experience was at 116 watching lcl aft lcl go by on the middle track. After what seemed like an hour (without any anouncements) I was sure that every lcl in service was now downtown & I would have to wait for them to be turned at So Ferry. A local/local did come, but I waited for the next.
Mr t__:^)
I heard that there were coin lockers at Grand Central awhile ago. Is this true? Are there any there now, or plans for any? Does anyone know how long ago they were there before? Also, are there any coin locker areas in the subways at all?
Thanks in advance!
If there ever were, I would seriously doubt there are any now after Oklahoma City. Lockers, newsboxes, ashtrays, and garbage cans disappeared from public places right afterwards, and newsboxes and garbage cans have reappeared in some places only in the last few months.
Until that incident, there were coin-op lockers in the Daley Center (county civil courthouse) in Chicago, on the concourse level where people could *and still can* walk through without passing through detectors! Major security faux pas!
Oklahoma City was a bitch. I used to walk across the street to the old federal building, go up to the 37th floor, and do some quick research at the census bureau library. Now, it can take 45 minutes for a non-employee to get in the building. Thank God internet access to data came in at about the same time. But I miss the view: there is no higher spot between the old federal building and Midtown.
By the way, the City Planning building is leaning on the new federal building. I thought it was going down while the new federal building was under construction. As the WTC bombing shows, the build them tough in NYC. If someone were to bomb the new federal building, it would shake a couple of times -- and my building would collapse into the dust!
For a number of years, the trash cans in the Paris Metro stations were covered over so that they could not be used for "unintended devices" (nor garbage!). The result was that people would leave their garbage on TOP of them -- what a mess!
During my visit to Paris last February, I noticed that the covers had been removed, and you can now deposit trash in the recepticals again.
so i suppose subway riders in Paris are as sloppy as some nyc subway riders are!
I hear that a lot of Parisians have pet dogs, and typically don't curb them or, shall we say, pick up after them. I'll leave it at that.
Grand Central has a room where luggage can be checked, rather than lockers per se. It's located near the Shuttle entrance. I've never heard of lockers in the subway ... one can imagine how long stuff would last in them :-)
This is an interesting topic. I wish the TA would but some coin lockers in the employee locker rooms at the terminals. Train crews assigned as Day Extra, Road Extra, Extra List, and Vacation Relief, have no "secure" place to stow there gear while at the terminals. Well its just a thought, and know that I think about it, some of the crew areas are so tight were lucky we have room for bathrooms!
Question:is it possible to tranport my Bike in the subway???
Yes
From the Official MTA website
BICYCLE SAFETY IN THE SUBWAY
Eight Quick Bike Safety Tips To Get You Ready To Roll
1.Avoid Crowded Stations And Trains 2.Enter And Exit Through Station Service Gate 3.Board Train After Exiting Passengers 4.Stand Near Either End Of Subway Car 5.Stand By Your Bicycle 6.Carry Your Bicycle On Staircases 7.Follow Instructions From Transit Police, Station And Train Personnel 8.Courtesy + Common Sense = Bicycle Safety
Avoid Crowded Stations And Trains
Bicycles can be dangerous when they get in the way of a number of people. Avoid rush-hour crowds. For easier getting "on" and "off" use lettered trains. They have bigger stations and roomier subway cars. Choose express trains since they have fewer stops and less boarding and exiting.
Enter And Exit Through Station Service Gate
Deposit token or use your MetroCard, roll the turnstile and enter through the service gate. Don't try to lift your bicycle over the turnstile. Don't carry it through a high-wheel revolving entrance or exit. If you get off at a station where there is only a high-wheel exit, wait for the next train and go to the nearest station that permits easy exit with a bike.
Board Train After Exiting Passengers
This reduces the chance of someone tripping over your bicycle. It also allows you to see if the train is crowded.
Stand Near Either End Of Subway Car
Never put your bicycle where it blocks the aisle or doors. It stops passenger flow. If the only available space is near the door, the train is too crowded. Wait for the next uncrowded train.
Stand By Your Bicycle
Move your bicycle to allow others to pass. If there is a train or station evacuation, you must leave your bicycle behind to ensure a swift and safe exit for all. Make sure all items on the bicycle are secured.
Carry Your Bicycle On Staircases
Wait until the staircase is not crowded. Carry it. Don't bump it on the stairs because you could lose control.
Follow Instructions From Transit Police, Station And Train Personnel
To ensure everyone's safety Transit Police and subway personnel may decide your bicycle is causing a hazardous situation, obstructing passenger movement or interfering with train operations. Be prepared to follow their directions.
Courtesy + Common Sense = Bicycle Safety
Consideration for others along with reasonable judgement help produce a safer, more comfortable environment for bicycles.
We Can All Breathe Easier
Riding a bike, hopping a bus or taking the subway all help reduce pollution in the air we breathe, since it means leaving a car at home. But bicycles can create safety problems in the subway system for both passengers and transit operations. These problems can be avoided easily by following a few simple rules and remembering to be considerate of other passengers whenever you take a bicycle into the subway.
For more information, please call between 9am and 5pm, Monday through Friday, at (718) 330-3322.
Know The Rules
You risk eviction or fine when you violate the New York Codes, Rules and Regulations, Chapter 21, Section 1050, governing the conduct of the public in using the transit facilities. In particular, rule 1050.9 (g) deals with bulky items like bicycles:
No person may carry on or bring to any facility or conveyance any item that:
1.Is so long as to extend outside the window or door of a subway car, bus or other conveyance, or 2.Constitutes a hazard to the operation of the Authority, interferes with passenger traffic, or impedes service, or constitutes a danger or hazard to other persons.
You risk eviction or fine when you violate the New York Codes, Rules and Regulations, Section 1050.7 (k) covering disorderly conduct which states in part:
No person on or in any facility or conveyance shall:
Commit any act which causes or may tend to cause injury or harm to oneself or to any other person including, but not limited to riding a bicycle, skateboard, roller skates, in-line skates or any self-propelled or motor-propelled vehicle.
In the roster page for R32, I read a notation that the ten cars
that Buffalo Transit rebuilt from the R32 fleet do not have
air conditioning. I'm not sure - I was on #3594, which I
assume is one of the ten and it sure looked air-conditioned
to me - looks just like an R38, with the dropdown ceilings at
either end, center vents, curly bars, the whole nine yards.
The GE R-32s can be distinguished from their sister cars by the outline of the marker lights and roll signs on the bulkheads, even though these were removed and replaced with the same electronic sign found on all other R-32s and R-38s. The other R-32s have smooth panels on the bulkheads where the route signs are now; these panels are very similar to those found on the blind ends. These GE units are usually found running with R-38s, rather than other R-32s. I don't remember if they're air conditioned or not, unfortunately.
The ten R32 cars that GE rebuilt had a/c when they were delivered. However, problems developed with the cradles for the compressor condensor units and the a\c systems were disabled. Now they are only winter cars.
You'd think that GEwould have fixed them once the
problem had been discovered.
This did not happen with the R38's, I take it.
Maybe it has to do with basic differences between
R32 (Budd) and R38 (St.Louis).
I think that the 10 R-32s were the'learning curve' for Buffalo Transit.
Do they have air conditioning, YES. Are they air conditioned, NO !!
The fact is that the ten R-32 GEs have air conditioning equipment that has not worked almost from the start. Right now, it is thought that it would not be cost-effective to replace the units. Like the Corona R-33s, they are not used during the summer.
For you out of towners
Thos Mornings Daily News
Unlimited Transit Hits Snag Rail passes to have reentry delay
By JAMES RUTENBERG Daily News Staff Writer
The Transit Authority's unlimited-ride bus and subway passes will have some limits after all, at least for the summer. The $63 monthly and $17 weekly passes are supposed to let riders use trains as often as they want for seven or 30-day periods. But a computer software
problem has forced officials to make each pass invalid for 18 minutes after it is used.
That means riders who want to hop off a train for a quick trip to the store, for instance, won't be able to use the pass to get back through the turnstiles until 18 minutes after they first entered the subway. The dead time is a security measure that would prevent fare cheats from using a single pass to admit as many people as they want to the same station. TA officials want to program the passes so they cannot be used at the same station. Right now, the pass would be invalid at any turnstile for the entire 18 minutes.
Officials hope to have the problem fixed by the fall. They attribute the problem to the amount of programming necessary to bring the passes up to speed by summer. Officials said they regret the problem, but thought it was worth it to offer the passes on time even if they're less than perfect. "Rather than hold the whole bandwagon up, we wanted to roll the whole pass system out as quickly as possible," said Chris Boylan, deputy director of the Metropolitan Transportation Authority. "In the fall it will be station specific."
Subway advocates agreed. "It's too bad it's happening," said Joe Rappaport, coordinator for the Straphangers Campaign, which helped lead the fight for the passes. "But it's better to have the pass with the 18 minute restriction for a few months than to have no pass at all."
News of the programming glitch came as the first real details about how the passes will work
began to emerge.
Officials said the clock on monthly and weekly passes starts ticking after the first swipe.
Riders will be able to find out how many days are left on the cards when they swipe them at
station card readers.
Marty,
A Q about your last parr, prev. (subway-buf), we heard that the customer could NOT see the time/days remaining, except by guessing based on creation date on back. So can they or can't they ? Inquiring minds need to know !
P.S. I think the TA has got caught with this 18 min problem, they wanted to prevent "pass-back" from day one, could it be that THEY asked the vendor to do it the WRONG way ?
Mr t__:^)
Hard to say T
I posted what was in the paper. Who knows how the reporter heard what he heard.
Marty, I made a call to NYC-DOT they said ....
On a bus the driver & customer will see expiration date/time of card, also it will state there's no money left, which may initally confuse everyone.
We're installing new Eproms on our buses' IFU (fare box) & have had probl with three chips so far out of 100.
Mr t__:^)
I just don't see this 18-minutes-at-any-station lockout as being a "bug." It would only be relevant if a rider could do all of the following within 18 minutes:
1. Enter the system at the origin station.
2. Wait for a train.
3. Ride the train to the destination station.
4. Walk from the destination station to the ultimate destination.
5. Do whatever has to be done there.
6. Walk back to the destination station.
Not much of an obstacle, I'd say. At least the Straphangers Campaign doesn't seem too upset.
Peter, But what if you add "bus" to the problem. A lot of folks take a short trip on a bus then want to transfer to another line or to underground. Or Queens/Brooklyn underground short trip to a bus. With the "free-transfer" the system has picked up a lot of customers on extra legs of their trips, e.g. local to express bus to subway. At $3.00 we thought our express business would go down but it hasn't for these folks that prefer the bus to the subway in Queens. Some will complete their trip in NYC on a subway.
P.S. We "privates" "in Queens" now carry more folks above ground then the TA, yes that's the fact Jack ! (it's about 1,000,000 tlt)
Mr t__:^)
You're right, the 18-minute lockout could be quite an inconvenience if it applies to buses as well as the subway. I don't know if that is the case, however.
FWIW, the article originally quoted says:
"That means riders who want to hop off a train for a quick trip to the store, for instance, won't be able to use the pass to get
back through the turnstiles until 18 minutes after they first entered the subway."
The word bus does not appear in the sentence. I don't think I trust the Daily News for the last word in this, though. On the other hand, it's hard to imagine introducing an unlimited use card that would prevent immediate transfers from virtually all cross-town buses in Manhattan, regardless of the TA's intentions to release a timely product.
--mhg
Wait a minute. You won't have to swipe to get out of a station. So either there is an 18 minute wait for reentry at the same station, or an 18 minute wait overall. In the latter case, there goes your free bus to subway transfer. In the former, it doesn't matter. Who would enter the same station twice in 18 minutes. One might exit at a destination (without the MTA recording it), do something, then re-enter to go elsewhere. But one wouldn't enter the same station twice in 18 minutes.
u would be surprised.people due it all the time.most times they left something at home or at work.or they want to go back upstairs and buy something.
Unless those people live or work inside the subway station, it'll take at least 18 minutes for them to go home or to the office and back.
people always go through the turnstile and then want to go back upstairs.they ask if I will let them get back in without paying again.and unless they are a pretty Dominican female I always tell them no,and they pay again.customer got a summons 2 weeks ago for jumping over the turnstile,after I told him he had to pay again.
Yes, but ...
The newspaper said
"TA officials WANT to program the passes so they cannot be used at the same station. Right now, the pass would be invalid at ANY turnstile for the entire 18 minutes." (caps mine)
So, yes, you WOULD sort of lose the free transfer when you take a quick one-stop subway ride and then want to hop on an arriving bus (you have to wait 18 minutes from when you entered the subway, which might translate into more time if you missed a bus while waiting for your card to "revive").
And, yes, you WOULDN'T have to wait unnecessarily MOST of the time when going subway to bus, because, as you obviously realize, it usually takes more than 18 minutes between your swipe upon first ENTERING the subway and your swipe on a bus AFTER your subway ride is over.
But you would have a problem when you take a very short subway ride and try to make a quick stop along the way. Say you live near 116th and Lex, and you're dashing to 86th to have dinner at your girlfriend's place, and you want to nip out at 103rd and buy a bottle of wine from a shop right next to the station, then hop back on and continue to 86th. (And this is exactly the kind of rabbit-like tunnel-hopping the unlimited passes will encourage ... at least in my case.)
You might conceivably swipe at 116th, hop aboard an about-to-depart downtown train (Warriors-style!), buy the first nice bottle you see and race back to the 103rd St. turnstile, all within 10 minutes. Now you have to wait another 8 minutes for your card to "revive," (even though it's a different station), then enter and wait for the train -- one of which probably will have passed by as you stood waiting at the turnstile.
Not, admittedly, a problem worth crying over. But maybe I'll ask one of you folks to write me a note explaining it, so my girlfriend won't get mad at me for being late. :-)
Peter & Mark, The software on the buss' fareboxes is downloaded nightly (actually every time the bus is probed) from the BIG mainfrane in NYC. For it to work it has to be the same, i.e. relative to fares, discounts, time periods, etc. So the 18 min pass-back does apply and the TA Surface division will have to deal with it. Does surface get expired (paper) Transfers now, take a guess.
Mr t__:^)
no way privates carry more than TA.DOES THE QUEEN BUS LINE HAVE A WEB PAGE WITH THIS INFO.provide their stats.
If he were to take a local, he'd probably make it in 18 minutes. (I couldn't resist.)
employee passes have a 6 minute pass back feature would that be considered a flaw? The idea for a pass back feature is not a flaw in programming it is to prevent misuse.
FolksÑ
Here's the late update...
The TWU is now running radio ads critical of SEPTA management, talking about how they held out going on strike for more than two months, how they care about the riders, and how SEPTA is trying to CUT wages and benefits...
Yowzers... Where do I start?
ÑSEPTA wants new workers to start at lower salaries and with fewer benefits, and take longer to build up to the full package. Is this unusual???
ÑThey held out from striking for more than two months...So why couldn't they just keep working? How does striking help them?
ÑIf the union cared for the riders, wouldn't they still be working?
Sigh...
Michael
accortding to The TWU web page, local 234 is picketing the regional rail stations. Accortding to the big board in NYP-there is no R7 from Trenton to Philly(at least as of last night 6/8/1998)
Buff--
SEPTA got a restraining order Monday to force regional rail operators/conductors back to work. So everything was fine on Tuesday.
BTW, BuffÑwhat's your thought on the union's position, being an operator yourself? What are you hearing about the feelings from other unions? I know there is some tension around here between the TWU, which is on strike, and the UTU, which operates buses and trolleys in the western suburbs and settled days before its contract expired. I'd like to gauge the feeling from other operators.
Thanks.
Kind regards,
Michael
JUST IN FROM LONDON
Subj:
Date: 98-06-10 11:13:58 EDT
From: London_Transport@cm-net.co.uk
To: @cm-net.co.uk (London Transport Subscribers)
London Transport : Travel News Update
Date : 10th of June, 1998
The rail union RMT have called a 48 hour strike starting at 1829 on Sunday 14th June and ending at 1829 on Tuesday 16th June. At this stage we cannot predict the full effect of this action, but there is likely to be severe disruption to London Underground services on this day.
Rather cililized way ...... 2 Day Demo
I have mixed feelings (I am a station agent).
First- I believe that both sides need to give. I do not know about SEPTA work conditions but some employee facillities in NYC are barbaric to say the least. I support a union's right to redress of work conditions but I also support management's right to make the final choice.
Strikes- I am opposed to strikes. Being a public servant, my customers (internal[transit employees] and external[the public]) depend on my being at work .When I was appointed I took an oath to uphold the constitution and laws of the State of New York which includes the Taylor law which forbids strikes. I also had to swear to uphold the Charter of the City of New York.
SEPTA and 234 should sit down with binding arbitration. SEPTA and 234 should agree to mutually improve work conditions and not to hold the people of greater Philly as hostages or pawns in their power struggles. Many Rapid Transit users are transit dependent-- e.g. they must use transit. They do not have the optiobn of hopping into their car to drive to work or their destination. 234 is holding these people "prisoners" in their power struggle.
Now as far as Local 100 (NYC)- the New Directions Slate has their merits, but here too I am against their ultra-militancy. The longest journey begins with a single step. True NYCT has some poor work conditions, but a partnership between both factions of the TWU100 and management can work out an affordable plan to improve the conditions to everyone's benefit=--transit, the public, and employees.
***All opinions are strictly my own and not those of MTA or NYCT***
Yesterday we were graced with the visage of Mr. Steven Brookens on the 6:00 news last night and the not-much-better one of David Cohen, spokeperson for SEPTA, trying to show the public their side in the whole strike fiasco. I was unable to catch Mr. Brookens and only saw part of Mr. Cohen, but if anyone saw it, please let me know what was said.
Anyway the strike has returned to front page coverage(at least yesterday) with the results of a poll. Apparently, 53%(I think) of the city supports the union. I would imagine because they want the trains and buses back.
Also there was a poll for people on whether or not you would return to SEPTA once the strike ends.
55% said very likely
24% said somehwat likely
20% said very unlikely
SEPTA's union is playing that rascally game of holding scissors by the insulin drip.
They know that sooner or later SEPTA is going to realize that they are losing too much money and will probably give in to the union.
I think they're right. Don't like it, but it's probably true.
I'm beyond arguing who's right or wrong. I'm tired of traffic ties on the Parkway. Snarls on I-95. Packed RR trains and protestors blocking buses and getting poeple fired.
I don't think the union will give up. So SEPTA, end the strike and give them what they want. If their demands are as bad as you say they are, it's only going to bite THEM in the butt.
SEPTA losing money due to the strike? Do they cover more than 100 percent of their costs? Unless they are keeping all their managers on board, and that amount of money is more than the daily SEPTA subsidy, my guess is they are SAVING money by not operating at a deficit.
Unless 234 can demand, and get, back pay (for a time period with no revenues), the longer the strike lasts the stronger SEPTA is fiscally. Rendell should announce that he's changing its name to the Carpool and Vanpool planning and coordination agency, and announce tax cuts with the money no longer spent on SEPTA. That should get their attention. Perhaps they would realize, as the union has in NYC, that THEY ARE SEPTA, and in destroying it they destroy themselves.
This strike is a disgrace. 234 is holding the people of Phila.
hostage. SEPTA will lose ridership after the dumb strike is settled. Heck,I can operate a light rail car , we all did it on open house day at Elmwood depot a few years ago. If I wasn't afraid to be shot or hurt, I'd scab and offer my services, but that would be Union Busting!
Typically, 234's contracts are retroactive to the date of the expiration of the old contract, so once (if?) it's settled, the operators could get a nice chunk of back money.
The City is getting into the act, a little. City Council is considering not paying the City's share of operating subsidies since nothing is operating. This should hurt SEPTA's financial situation a little. Of course, every day it doesn't operate service, SEPTA saves money.
Don't give away the store just yet, Jack. Every day the strike continues, SEPTA actually saves money by not operating. As backward as it sounds, it's true.
I've taken the trains three times this week (including this afternoon). It's hectic, it's a little chaotic, but it's working. The same thing can be said for traffic. The gridlock and strangling of the region we used to see in days gone by do not happen any more. I've even heard folks say that traffic is moving better without the buses on the streets to slow it down. That's scary!
I noticed today that SEPTA will go back to collecting tickets each way on the trains. Since the strike began, tickets are not lifted on inbound trains but riders must pay double on the outbounds (unless they are using the popular TrailPass). The tickets are collected in the lines in which one must wait at 30th St, Suburban and Market East, and these lines form in the waiting areas of the station. Passengers in the lines are permitted to go to platform level just before the trains arrive. There are some problems I've seen with this - one-way inbound riders travel free, while one-way outbounds must pay double; the collection of tickets off the train (to make the conductors' jobs on the trains easier - collection of tickets on trains with standees is difficult) makes it easy for one to buy the cheapest fare and ride to extreme destinations, since tickets are not returned for proof of purchase; line jumping happens; and, confusion on which line is which is there (at Suburban, the lines get long and some wind around corners, etc).
in 207th st there are several r-44 a and b units which were never rebuilt. most components were gutted. also in coney island yard i think it was 3 or 4 R-44 cars that are scrap pieces.
The MTA has tried to get a bank to use the Metrocard as its electronic cash card, but the banks insisted on making money off the MTA, so the talks broke down. With electronic cash not catching on anywhere, perhaps the MTA should try again. They should be able to get a great deal, and here's why.
"Money" was traditionally backed by something of real value ie. gold. A country issued paper, but promised to redeem it for gold. Today, money is just paper. And electronic cash is paper based on paper. The Federal Reserve issued a ruling that electronic cash does not count as a deposit, and need not be honored if a bank went belly up. You get a $50 cash card from Banco du Banco and it closes, too bad -- no store need accept it. But if a bank made a deal with the MTA, it would have a cash card backed by something of real value -- a transit ride. This is not so farfetched. I've bought pizza with tokens when short of cash in the past.
The bank would "buy" Metrocards from the MTA, then (after deducting a fee) issue them for general use. The MTA would collect millions in interest from the time the cards are purchased until they area used (they get some of that now, but only on transit trips instead of the entire economy). Any bank who cut a deal with the MTA would become THE source of electronic cash in the NY region, a marketing advantage which could be used to sell other services as well.
Of course there is a risk. A Governor could see all that money in the bank, and use it fund a budget deficit, leaving the MTA to make good on millions in obligations. But the agreement could be structured to make the bank, rather than the public, liable for political fraud. The bank would make sure the money was not simply stolen.
Larry,
I believe Citybank tryed a cash/debit card system on the uppr west side recently, so MTA wouldn't be first with this in NYC. The MTA shouldn't be taken back by the bank wanting to make money, they do off retail sales of MetroCards & charges non-TA transport firms every time a MetroCard is dipped. There are also lots of universities that have various kinds of cash/debit cards, i.e. assoc w/meal plans, vending machines, rides.
P.S. Valley-Metro of Phoenix sells a "semestor pass" & also was one of the 1st in country to sell swipe cards by credit card.
P.P.S. A number of the "private" bus co's in NYC will sell U over the phonbe a $30 + 3 Metrocard with your credit-card.
Mr t__:^)
I have a friend who tells me that not only did there used to be a subway in Rochester NY, but that he has pictures of the tunnels! Does anyone have any idea to what he is referring? Is it a system that never was? Or maybe just a trolley line or two that went underground downtown?
It was a trolley line that went out towards the Kodak Plant. Very little subway as you know it in Manhattan, most like the Old Sea Beach and Brighton Cuts.
The Book is "Canal Boats, Interurbans & Trolleys-The Story of the Rochester Subway" Amberger,Barrett & Marling Authors,Rochester NRHS Publishers.
There is also a video "The End of the Line - Rochester's Subway" by Animatus Studio of Rochester.
Situation very similar to Newark, NJ's Ex-Morris Canal Subway
"Subway" is sort of a matter of definition in this case. Rochester Transit did use that term, but the line was mostly built in an old canal bed, below street level but in open air. Think Newark city subway, and you'll have a pretty good picture of the operation. It lasted until around 1956, as I recall.
Once unlimited Metrocards come out, there'll be no need to worry about
connecting various stations underground via multimillion dollar walkways. Only the idiots who aren't farsighted enough to purchase these cards are going to have to pay twice when the walk outside. Also the jerks who are afraid of the fresh air will be upset when they have to step foot on the sidewalks of our wonderful city (or maybe they're just too out of shape to climb the stairs a few times, although there's always the crippled kids' elevators).
Don't be so sure the unlimited ride will benefit everyone. If you work full time, five days per week, the unlimited ride Metrocard allows you to take an unlimited number of additional trips for just $8 per month.
But what about those who work part time? Or those who are self employed in their home (a hugely growing number) and travel to Manhattan a couple of times a week? No benefit there. What about a family whose children are above the pay age, and who normally don't ride at all. No benefit there either. Remember, most of these are off-peak trips -- just what the TA needs, revenues without additional expense. They should have gone with a steep off-peak discount, not unlimited monthly rides. Staphangers, in their ignorance, blew that one.
Moreover, having to ascend and descend stairs, and wait at traffic lights, lengthens a trip. In that sense, a passageway is better than re-entry from the street. But real access is a change across the platform. Anything else takes too long and presents a security risk off peak.
However, I agree that the link between the Franklin Ave shuttle and the IRT is a waste. If people had to swipe again for a transfer, they wouldn't be able to farebeat on the shuttle then enter the general system. Spending a bundle to enable white collar crime -- now that's political influence.
I definitely disagree that an off-peak discount is preferable to monthly and weekly cards.
When a business has a choice between rewarding its best customers and rewarding its worst customers, it should always choose to reward the best. Look at the perks that the airlines give to their business travelers and how they ensure brand loyalty.
From what I understand, some of the private express bus companies have actually lowered their fares since the introduction of the free bus-subway transfer. With the intro of the unlimited ride cards, I'd expect this to continue.
I'd expect that the introduction of the unlimited Metrocards will increase MTA revenue, even though it's a fare "decrease"
I was reading a recent copy of American Automobile Association's (AAA) local New York newsletter. The lewsletter had a small article about the JFK rail link. Basically it stated that the AAA is against any plan to run a rail line down the Van Wyck from Jamaica station (Big Surprise there :) ) They claimed the project was too expensive and would disrupt traffic on the Van Wyck. They would be using their lobbying power to try to shoot down the project.
They, however, supported an alternate plan to use existing rail lines instead of new construction. They referred to a rail line called the "Apple Corridor". Does anyone know what & where the "Apple Corridor" is ? Is this the old Rockaway ROW ?
Is there an internal affairs department within the MTA that deals with inside corruption? How much authority do they have above the Transit Authority?
The MTA Office of the Inspector General investigates corruption and other issues of mis-management within every division of the MTA (including the Transit Authority) They are at 100 Park Ave South in Manhattan and have an 800 # for complaints and information. It IG has an extremely broad scope and a lot of power in corruption cases.
In the course of building a model subway, I have discovered that my memory is going. In spite of having lived in NYC for about 20 years, and riding the IND regularly with Union Turnpike - Kew Gardens my home station, I cannot recall enough details to properly model that station.
There are enough photos on this web site to cover the other stations I'm modeling - but - I need photos/descriptions of Union Tpke. Any help appreciated and/or paid for.
Jeff Trevas, firemack@aol.com
BTW: if you are interested in subway modelling, don't forget Pat Villani's excellent site: http://www.iop.com/~patv/railroad.html
For starters, Union Turnpike is a typical four-track express station. It ducks beneath the Interboro Parkway where it connects with Queens Blvd. Consequently, the station has mezzanines on either end, not one continuous mezzanine.
Jeff -
Here is some "decorative" info, which may help you to recreate
your station:
* Platform layout is two island platforms with four tracks.
* The pillars are royal blue. The stairway railings are
safety yellow.
Lighting is flourescent at platform level, still incandescent
in the mezzanine.
* There is a medium yellow stripe, three tiles high, (12 3/4")
with a black border of 1/2 tile running the length of each wall.
This stripe is also on the platform end walls.
To get this exact color, use a Berol Prismacolor art pencil,
number 1012 (Jasmine), available at Pearl Art (about 85 cents)
then apply heavy to your material.
* Beneath this, there is black tile with white lettering
which spells out, in full, "UNION TURNPIKE".
Each of these captions is separated by 28 white tiles.
* The plaques on the pillars are white helv letters on a
black background - they read:
Union
T'pke
Every OTHER pillar has a plaque.
* The overhead signs are white letters on a black background
and say "Union Turnpike - Kew Gardens". Note that they are
somewhat smaller than those found say, at Continental
Avenue.
* There appears to be a gentle, 8 degree curve about
three quarters of the way towards the east end of the
station. (I approximated this from my photo with a
protractor)
* The ceiling at the east end of the station looks like
it's about four or five feet higher than at the other end.
The flourescent fixtures are suspended by rods and brackets.
I have three pretty good photos of Union in my IND stations
collection. If you would like, I can have them scanned for
you (JPG format), then I can e-mail them out to you for review.
Feel free to e-mail me if you are interested.
WLWhitehorne@compuserve.com.
I have just started building a new Website dealing with the early
history of the Long Island Rail Road. Please stop and take a look and
let me know what you think of it. Since this is my first attempt at a
website, I would greatly appreciate any criticism, suggestions,
comments and corrections. The site is still very much under
construction.
Here's the address
http://www.pipeline.com/~robertwa/lirr.html
Cool Website! The LIRR I never knew had so much history. Keep going I can't wait till it is done.
Looks mighty good so far! One suggestion: the Atlantic Ave. Tunnel deserves some mention, IMHO, since it was the first tunnel of its kind to be built by cut-and-cover. At the time it was built, steam locomotives of that era could not negotiate even moderately steep grades such as the one along Brooklyn's waterfront. The tunnel provided access to the waterfront. It was built in 1844 over a period of 7 months, and remained in use until 1859; it was sealed off in 1861.
Real cool. Pictures, of course, would be nice, where available.
May I suggest some typos? Creedmoor (not Creedmore) and rights-of-way (not right of ways).
Thanks very much for the efforts!!
I've been missing from LI for nearly a decade and it's nice to see a good web site dedicated to the LIRR.
BTW -- there's an abandoned ROW and turntable in Bethpage State Park if I remember correctly. It may have been part of the Central ROW you have on your page. Someone I worked with at that time researched it and found it. Email me if you're interested.
I think the oldest subway cars still running are those on the A (or Blue) line in Buenos Aires. The cars are mostly wooden, the doors are opened manually by the passengers seeking to enter or exit the cars and can be opened while the train is still in motion, even the light bulbs and straphangers are old fashioned.
The 205th Street IND Concourse Line terminal station is the last
stop of the "D" train in the Bronx. The station has a two track
island platform configuration.
The 205th Street exit is at the east end of the station. The
mezzanine is under the intersection of East 205th Street and
Perry Ave. There are two stairways to the token booth and
turnstiles; one facing south on Perry Ave on the southeast
corner; the other facing north on Perry Ave on the northwest
corner. The lay-up/turn-back tracks that proceed east from the
station under 205th St. are under the Mezzanine. A long ramp (50
yds or so) extends down to the platform level.
The west end of the station is under the intersection of 206th
Street and Bainbridge Ave, which is about 80 or so feet higher in
elevation. At this point you will have to understand the
topography of the area being described.This area of the north
central Bronx is dominated by what was known as Valentine's Hill.
The highest point being about the intersection of 210th Street
and Bainbridge Ave or where Gun Hill road intersects and all
around the Montefiore Hospital Complex. At one time, until the
early 30's there was a reservoir where Reservoir Oval Park
currently occupies the high ground east of Bainbridge Ave and
208th Street.
The (205th St.) station entrance at East 206th Street and
Bainbridge Ave is about halfway up this hill. The 205th St.
entrance is near the bottom of the (Perry Ave) hill. The eastern
half of the station is cut and cover method construction. The
western half is tunnel construction.
The lay-up/turn-back tracks proceed east from the station under
205th St. go about 3 blocks from Perry to Hull Ave, Decatur Ave
and terminate at or under Webster Ave. There is a scissors x-over
east of the station.
There is a switchman's tower (control room) at the west end of
the platform. The west end of the platform exit is reached by a triple level stairway or a correspondingly long escalator to the 206th St mezzanine.
Viewed as an above ground railway, the 205th St Station and turn-
back tracks would be the right half of the top of a "T"
configuration. The Concourse mainline would be the stem portion.
The left side and top of the "T" are composed of the Yard lead
tracks. The yard itself is actually parallel to the (west of)Concourse and Jerome Ave Lines.
One of the reasons for having the turn-back for the terminal
further east of the station is the tunnel method of construction
on the western end of the station and junction of the yard lead,
which leaves no room for x-overs at the western end of the station.
Dave-please add this to my Bronx D Page (credits to "mellow one")
a german guy ask
My Question: Is it possible to transport my bicycle with the subway from Brooklyn or Staaten Island to Manhatten? Thank``s M.
From Brooklyn to Manhattan, yes. (You don't say which part of Brooklyn).
From Staten Island to Manhattan, no - you have to take the Staten Island Ferry from St George.
--Mark
Until this morning, I had never had the opportunity to ride the LIC branch of the LIRR. If you have the opportunity, do it. I got to see it from the cab of the loco and could have easily forgotten that I was in NYC. The contrasts between the segment through forest park, the interchange with conrail and the final leg through the industrial areas of Maspeth and Long Island City make it seem like you are on 3 seperate railroads. Unfortunately, I made the trip westbound and, therefore, I was riding in the power pack with the loco pushing from the other end. You just don't get the feeling of the loco, that way. Be sure that I will make the trip again and going east at least once.
The LIC-bound train that leaves Jamaica at 8:14 am usually doesn't have a locomotive on the rear end. Therefore it's possible to ride on the rear platform of the last car, looking out the open doorway onto the receding tracks. I did just that last Friday and it was quite an experience. You're right, the various segments do seem like separate lines. Now if the trip could only be made a little faster ...
I neglected to say so in my previous posting but thank you to everyone who's postings about the line got me interested enough to go out of my way and take the ride.
As for wishing that the ride were faster: Actually, I wish the trip were a little longer. I want to make the trip in the cab of a GP38, next time. The line has some interesting features that you can't readily see from one of the coaches. For example, I spotted at least 2 spring switches in Maspeth & LIC. Also, many of the X'ing gates do not activate until the train is virtually on top of them. This would account, in part, for the reduced speeds. Happily, the service diversions will last through the summer leaving ample opportunity to explore the line fully.
I am looking for parts of 'retired' subway cars. I am seeking doors, poles, seats, maps (map cases), and those 'above the head' loop-handles (I don't know what they are called!). If you know anyone/anyplace who sells these or information about who I call at MTA/Port Authority for this, please let me know. I will pay good money for these. I am also looking for NYC Sewer/Manhole covers.
Thank you,
Paul J. Scipione
You might try the Transit Museum, which is
located at Boerum Place and Schermerhorn Street
in Brooklyn (near the foot of the Brooklyn Bridge and
two blocks from Borough Hall, in the Court St. subway
station)
They have a few plaques, signs etc. in the gift shoppe,
but there may someone there who knows where other small
items can be obtained. It costs $3.00 to get in and you get a
wonderful show and exhibit, if you haven't seen it
yet.
I don't think you can get manhole covers there.
By the way, they're affectionately known as "straps".
They are a dying breed.
And subway riders in New York are also known affectionately as "straphangers".
I think "Straphangers" is a great name for a New York sports team. Nothing is more characteristic of the city and region than riding a subway, bus or railroad. It could be called (in the Daily News fashion) the 'Hangers for short. And when the team took an insurmoutable lead at home, the announcer could bellow "Watch the Closing Doors."
If Major League Soccer or the proposed rival football league opens for business in the city, and has a name the team contest, I'll suggest it.
Great idea but not totally original. The Brooklyn Dodgers, as the story goes, came from shortening "The Brooklyn Trolley Dodgers".
"Trolley dodgers" referred to fans having to dodge trolley cars to get to Ebbets Field and, prior to that, the Washington St. Grounds (if I remember right, the Dodgers played there before Ebbets Field was built). Nontheless, that is, in fact, how the Dodgers got their name.
When the Mets were formed, a contest was held to pick a name for them. Some suggestions were Giodgers (a combination of Giants and Dodgers); Meadowlarks, since the new ballpark would be next to Flushing Meadows Park; and Knicks. Joan Payson, the original owner, was credited with coming up with Mets, which is short for Metropolitans. BTW, how do you think the Titans became the Jets? Why, because of Shea Stadium's close proximity to LaGuardia Airport, of course.
Yes, Straphangers would be a very appropriate name for a New York sports franchise.
And every time they score, don't forget to sound the door chime.
You may want to cal the NYC Transit Scrap Division / Department and ask how they propose to get rid of the 800+ Redbird IRT cars when the new R-142s start arriving. Then you'd have plenty of equipment pieces to choose from.
--Mark
The Redbirds, eh? Hmmm... I wonder whether they'll sell the overhead fluorescents in 4-foot units. Wonder if they're "retofittable" to use AC lamps in place of the DCs they currently use. Anyone know the answer to this one?
Will the time-based Metrocards have a different appearance than the value-based cards?
For example, my regular commute from Boston to NYC is typically from Friday evening through Sunday. I'll want to use a value-based card to get from LGA to Manhattan on Friday evening, since I usually take only one ride. Then a daily card all day Saturday (as I ride ALL DAY after work *smile*; then the value-based card for my one Sunday ride back to LGA.
But if I can get to NYC early enough on Friday, I might choose to use a daily card instead upon my arrival at LGA if I think I'll take more than two rides - I'll have to stock up. So..... will the daily card LOOK different, or when I buy them, will I have to use Post-It Notes(tm) or magic marker to differentiate the card types?
Todd,
Eye have some bad news for U !
By D-E-S-I-G-N all MetroCards look the same. U buy a card and it works, the public doesn't need to NO how, it's one of life mysterys.
Disclaimer - I don't work for the TA or any of its divisions.
Seriously, Post-it work for me, particularly the value based ones, also shop around the various retail outlets and find a card with unique graphics on the back: there's 8 "Emigrant" cards, or how about "Dial-A-Mattress", i.e. I wish I was back in Boston in my bed, or "Continental Airlines". I would like to advacate the re-issue of "NYC Funpass" for the 24 hour pass, when it comes out.
Mr t__:^)
Nothing would be worse than thinking I was swiping my daily Metrocard, than to discover it was the value-based card by mistake: "$1.50 used; $0.00 remaining." :-(
I think I'll carry an indellible marker in my travel bag and draw a "$" on the front of the card.
NYC Transit says that to see if the MetroCard is a value-based or regular one, you can swipe it in the reader near any token booth and it will tell you what you have left on it and what type of MetroCard it is. This assumes, of course, that there's a working reader in the station you're in. I was in Manhattan yesterday and I boarded at 42nd/8th Ave. I had to go to 4 (!!) token booths to find a working reader. My post-it note fell off.
Also, don't smile too quick. The Daily News reported yesterday that the debut of the monthly, weekly and daily MetroCards may be delayed due to software problems (more code that anticipated to implement). The monthly and weekly passes have an 18 minute closed zone on them that prevents you from swiping it more than once at the same station. However, in the early days of the program, the 18 minute zone will apply to EVERY station. So, as an example, I couldn't take the subway a short distance, run an errand and re-enter if I return to the subway in less than or equal to 18 minutes. Also, the News didn't make it clear if the daily passes were still coming out as scheduled; it seemed to infer that there won't BE a daily pass early on. Anyone in the know hear differently??
--Mark
Unfortunately there are no card readers near bus stations. And since my first ride upon arrival at LGA is the Q-33 (or M-60), I don't have a way of telling which card I'm using before I "dip." Thus the need to mark the card in some way.
Todd or any other out-of-towners,
I'ld be happy to swap 3 of your liquidated/expired plastic transit cards for three MetroCards with unique graphic, I'll even incl the recently discontinued "Travel Card" as one of them if you like. I'll try to incl cards with the most months left on them so, except for the Travel-Card, just add cash.
Send your snail-mail addr to clark@qsbus.com
Mr t__:^)
Mr. T,
Sounds like a nice swap, but here in Boston, expired T passes still have value! If you save up a year's worth (actually 11 in a 12 month period), and send them into your automobile insurance agent with your renewal, you get 15% off your comprehensive coverage. So I save about $75 a year on my car insurance with my "expired" T passes! But thanks for the offer...
Todd,
P.S. EYE have more bad news ....
Don't plan on using the monthly unlim card t-o-o much, because it's only good for 126 dips !
Also the current $ 120 comes close to max out the card, $163 is the top value that the card will take.
Oh the secrets, and got-uas that they haven't told us !
P.P.S. Today the TA released the news that they're "thinking about" throwing away the millions invested in the current equip and repl with "proximity, a.k.a. Smart" cards. The bigest problem with them is that they're the thickness of 3 MetroCards, otherwise they have a lot more potential then the current type AND guess what ... they'll get read when you get on AND get off the system.
Reminder, I don't work for the TA
Mr t__:^)
Personally, I wouldn't have use for a monthly card. Remember, I'm already the proud owner of a monthy card in Boston :-) My max visits to NYC are 2-3 days at a time, once or twice a month.
I saw the article on proximity cards. While the DC Metro uses mostly "swipe" cars (though the swipe is done by the machine instead of the passenger), they also accept other systems' proximity cards. With enter/exit proximity cards, there is the "danger" of a zone system. Frankly, I don't think the culture in NYC will go for a zone system (nor giving up the "free exit.")
Todd,
1. Monthly unlim at $63 vs. value at 60 + 6 good for a year ?
2. DC you get one guess who make the DC system, bingo Cubic !
They are also in Chicago, San Fran, Miami, Houston, Atlanta,
most used to be GFI, but Cubic did a better sales job even though the GFI system is very similar.
Mr t__:^)
Imagine the congestion with an exit swipe at Stations like Penn Station. Already many days I have to wait to leave the station due to all the entrances.Also-fare jumpers would increase with exit swipes and they would be harder for the cops to catch due to the open streets. Also- what about those insisting on tokens? install exit token slots- No! more wheels to empty, more paperwork--two reports. A station agent's job is not the loaf the outsider thinks. We have reports to do, surveys to fill out, wheels to empty, etc. As my instructor said- we are a paper railroad.
Please- no zone fare or exit swipes!!
**the opinions are personal and not those of MTA or NYCT***
I agree as a fellow station agent that a zone system would never work in nyc with the volume who ride the subway. As for some who think a smart card might be a better fare card hmmmm
Sunday night an unsuaual accident on the Dan Ryan Expressway sent two semi trucks over the wall and onto the red line tracks, killing one driver.
Service was restored by Monday morning. Also on sunday night, in an unrelated incident, and a bit farther north on the red line car 6 of a seven car train derailed.
All in all a rough night on the South end of the Red Line
That's not the topper of the Red Line news. Yesterday (Tuesday), a man fell onto the tracks of the Red Line in Chicago/State subway station just before a train came into the station! Five cars passed over him before the train came to a full stop. But when the firemen went down on the track, the man was alive and intact under the train, with only a few bruises and scrapes. He was brought to the hospital, which said a few hours later that he was in fair condition. Not bad, considering that the people in the station at the time were screaming and crying, presuming the man to be dead.
Neither the CTA nor the Fire Department is saying how the man survived, but if you have seen the foot-deep drainage trench down the middle of the track in the downtown Chicago subways, it becomes clear how he was not seriously injured by the train.
The New York subway also has a drainage trench running down the middle of the tracks, and presumably someone could lie in it and avoid being run over by a train. Of course, considering the trench's lack of cleanliness, being run over might be the better choice!
That's true at subway stations and IND lines, which were built using half-ties in concrete. On IRT and BMT lines, tunnel stretches still utilize full crossties and stone ballast. Recently, more and more tunnel sections have been redone with half-ties and concrete, although I remember seeing fresh ballast around the crossties on the BMT Broadway express tracks at 8th St.
When I saw the story on Channel 5 News I immediately wondered how the victim escaped "rubber squeegee" damages. Either the victim was EXTREMELY THIN or the "well between the running rails" is EXTREMELY DEEP at Chicago/State. I’ll have to check this out the next time I have the occasion to use Chicago/State. In any event, I’m glad that the victim took the fall at Chicago/State rather that Chicago/Franklin, as there is little clearance between the trains and the ties on the ‘L’!
One can find trenches like this on the BSS in Philly. Our's are a little cleaner than NYC's. I know. I've seen the ones at Times Square on the IRT. Not a pretty sight.
One small observation: all cars on the Red Line operate as married pairs; 8-car trains are the norm there except during late nights and possibly Sundays. You can't have 7-car trains. The only line which might possibly use single cars would be the Yellow (Skokie Swift) or Purple north of Howard.
Nope, the Yellow and Purple use married pairs also, the Purple using the same cars as the other lines and the Yellow having the unique pantograph (not trolley pole) cars. The entire CTA revenue-car fleet consists of married pairs.
You are right. Also the incident may have been monday night - tues AM
As I was writting I was wondering why the train was so long on Sunday. Usually 2 or 4 car trains on Sunday on the blue line at least. What do they run on the red line on sunday? This week has been a blur and I lost a day somewhere.
Sunday consists on the Red Line are six (6) cars starting about 6 AM and lasting until about 6 PM when four (4) car consists take over. This was a recent observation - last Sunday.
Bill Clinton signed the biggest spending bill in history for highway and public transportation for the entire country. This means more money available for improvements to existing resources and possibly adding new to the old. With the reported surplus in money due to increased ridership last year and money from the the govt., let's hope that the TA brings NYC transit to the way we would all likt to be:
RELIABLE
-Garfield
As said previously, the new spending bill is a ripoff. New York State gets 5.1 percent of the money, but it has 6.8 percent of the population and pays 8 percent of the federal taxes. And you can bet the same level of ripoff will prevail when the money passes to the city from the Vampire State. The federal transit administration website has the share of the money each state gets. The census bureau has the share of population. The Northeast Midwest Institute has the per capita tax burden by state www.nemw.org I think.
Those from the south claim that transport money should be distributed in proportion to gasoline usage, so states with less driving and more transit should get less. That's why New York State's share was cut. But what spending is distributed in proportion to the income taxes we pay? Ripoff ripoff ripoff.
Federal money does not drop from the sky -- we pay it in before we get it out. If there was no federal transport money, and the taxes were collected locally in New York instead, a greater share would go to transit, because that's what we want. Instead some of my money will be used to build a new interstate from Mexico to Indiana. Why don't they pay for it themselves. Ripoff.
By your logic, why don't we bloody well dissolve the Union and break down into a thousand feudal fiefdoms, each taxing the hell out of all goods coming in and only spending money on transportation up to its borders and only when it can see a short-term cash benefit to itself?
Do you think that you get no benefit from transportation expenditures if they aren't in metro New York City? Your food, clothing, toiletries, medicine, and 1001 other things you use every day come from another part of the country, and a good portion of them come by truck over the Interstate. The same goes for expenditures on Amtrak, the FAA's air navigation system, and the Coast Guard navigation aids. That's true not just for NYC, but for every point in the country, rural, suburban, or urban.
I would say the same thing to a rural person objecting to spending on MTA or a suburbanite objecting to spending on the subway that I am saying to you. They and you are all guilty of the same myopia.
Should there be a better apportionment of federal and state transport money between the various modes of transport? Of course. Should more be spent on transit? Damn straight! But is money spent on another portion of the national transportation system automatically a waste of your money because it's not being spent on a mode that you personally ride every day? No, no, a thousand times NO!
If the money was dispersed by "need," fine. But the fact is, New York bashing is a popular sport everywhere in the country, and that accounts for the money spent, not the relative situation of our infrastructure. It's a wonder we get anything. Are you aware of the rhetoric from other people's representatives as the formulas were debated. The truth is, much of the country does not consider New York a part of the union. They consider it the underserving home of whoever they don't like (since just about every type of person lives here), and treat it like a colony to be exploited and then criticized.
The point of view is that highways (which other people have) are a "national" issue that benefits all, so I have to pay for it. Transit (which we have) is a local issue which benefits only a few, so others do not have to contribute. I should have the attitude that infrastructure investment elsewhere benefits me also? Should I also have the attitude that infrastructure investment in New York is selfish, since it does not benefit anyone else?
New York State would be better off if there was no national transportation bill. So would Illinois. And if other states chose not to maintain their share of the national highway system? Passengers would fly over them in airplanes. Freight would rumble through them on -- private sector -- railroads.
Another thing about the federal bill. The Daily News called it a "windfall." Someone from Transportation Alternatives said it was like a bucket of money falling from the sky. Gee, since the money is "free" there is no need to worry too much about spending it efficiently is there? The News had a list of New York area projects. Half of them were "studies." You're in Congress. You have an interest group. Infrastructure is expensive. So you give them a "study" instead, and hand out money to some consultant.
If we had back all the money spent on all the studies of the Second Ave subway, I'll bet we could build it.
I'll bet they're actually building things in Illinois.
You get a little prickly about the distribution of cash when you LOSE EVERY TIME, IN EVERY CATEGORY, EVERY YEAR.
Believe me, being from Chicago, I know the rural attitude towards megalopolis cities. One of the common threads of Illinois politics is Chicago v. "Downstate". Downstate doesn't seem terribly reluctant to pay for Chicago-area highways, and even for public transit when it's lines they will use on their inevitable visits to Chicago. Education is the big urban v. rural hot potato, with Downstaters insisting they aren't going to "bail out" the "nation's worst school system" even though the Chicago Public Schools have shown some measurable progress since the U.S. Dep't of Education made that infamous pronouncement.
I agree with you that public transit is not getting its fair share of federal and state funds. But the solution is for urban senators to make it clear to suburban and rural senators, and for urban residents to make it clear to rural and suburban residents, that the national transportation system is ONE SYSTEM with urban transit being a vital component. The solution is NOT to simply drop out of the national transportation system and have a great subway but the highways ending abruptly at the city limits and the cost of imported (from the rest of the Union) goods increase accordingly. New York is a major seaport and airport, and both systems, though the actual vessels are privately operated, are made possible by FAA and Coast Guard navigation aids and traffic control.
"The point of view is that highways (which other people have) are a 'national' issue that benefits all, so I have to pay for it. Transit (which we have) is a local issue which benefits only a few, so others do not have to contribute. I should have the attitude that infrastructure investment elsewhere benefits me also? Should I also have the attitude that infrastructure investment in New York is selfish, since it does not benefit anyone else?"
My posting made it clear that I think BOTH you and the suburban/rural whiners are wrong. The national transportation system is a SINGLE SYSTEM. You are foolish to think you don't have highways just because you don't drive on them, AND the non-urbanite is foolish to think that they don't have subways just because they don't ride them.
1) You would not have the goods you buy and use every day AT THE PRICE YOU EXPECT TO PAY if it were not for a highway a thousand miles from NYC which you have never seen. The goods would get to NYC by some means, but they would be much more expensive without an efficient highway system.
2) The suburban and rural population would not have the information- based output of NYC (finance, banking, publishing, broadcasting, advertising, etc., etc. ) AT THE PRICE THEY EXPECT TO PAY if the concentration of such enterprises in Manhattan were not made possible by the subway. The businesses would locate somewhere, but the subway makes possible the efficiency of these businesses' proximity.
It seems as though NY's politicians have consistently bought the "We're all in it together" philosophy, while those elsewhere have pursued self-interest with the righteousness of the "truly deserving." If attitudes elsewhere will not change, then attitudes in New York will have to change. Otherwise, we'll be committing fiscal suicide.
Welfare reform was a real slap in the face. In consists of three features: everyone should work (all in favor), people should be cut off even if they are willing to work after five years (immoral), adn stick it to the legal immigrants (screwed five states). All the money was saved by sticking it to the five states. Moreover, when the Republican revolution hit, the Northeast was in a regional depression like the one that hit the Midwest in the early 1980s. We had 1.2 million on welfare and had lost 10 percent of our jobs. Meanwhile, the Midwest and South was booming. Those immoral New Yorkers, they brought in on themselves! Why should we have to pay? Suddenly it was everyone for themselves. Kasich had the nerve to suggest that NY State repeal the clause in its constitution that says the state won't let the poor starve.
Well guess what, the job losses due to information technology have slowed, and information-based NY is booming. Meanwhile, the Asia crisis is hitting manufacturing. Looks like it might be the Midwest and South which get the regional recession, perhaps next year. And you know what? When the wrong states are faced with people being cut off in a depression (and no money in the state and local tills to face the crisis) guess what? We'll all be in it together again! They'll be some temporary recession dispensations, our representatives will say hooray, and New Yorkers will have to pay.
In War and Peace, the rich remark that their suffering is so much worse than the peasants' suffering, which is not that bad because they're used to suffering.
We're either all in it together or we're not.
C'mon guys. Firstly, the purpose of government is to extort money from the productive BUT power short hoi poloi and redistribute it to the cronys of the rulers. Secondly the political process is immensely corrupt--witness Shuster lkegislating a single free segment on the Penn Turnpike--his home neighborhood. Thirdly the real power base these days is solidly the suburbs--that is in both Illinois and NY terms it is not Cook County, nor the 5 boroughs, but rather it is Lake, Du Page and the outlying where the political clout resides--LI & near in Upstate. Or to look at my back yard BART wants to spend 4hundred + Million to extend itself 5 miles while a surplus parallel rail line already exists. Sort of like the JFK boondoggle. Just remember transit is only supported because the oligarchs can't figure a cheaper way to get the serfs to the sweatshops.
What I want to know is, how come solidly Republican areas which scream for small government are the ones who get the biggest share of any spending package. Sounds like a good negotiating strategy to me.
NORTHEASTERN DEMOCRATS: "Please let us take people's money and give it back to them, so we can act like its charity from our own pockets."
SOUTHERN AND WESTERN REPUBLICANS: "No we're against government."
NORTHEASTERN DEMOCRATS: "How about if our people pay more in, yours get more out, your people get to look down on our people as high spending freeloaders, and we never challege that belief."
SOUTHERN AND WESTERN REPUBLICANS: "Okay, but its not what we really want. The fact that we are going along just shows the power of the eastern establishment."
When New York's economy is up, the rest of the state and nation get envious and grab the money on the grounds that we don't need it. When New York's economy is down, the rest of the state and nation sneer and refuse to help on the grounds that we don't deserve it.
We've slipped this "you pay for yours, we'll pay for ours" idea into a couple of data memos to the Mayor's speechwriters, but City Hall hasn't gone along. The reason -- politically, state and federal money is free to local officials, no matter what the share is. They get credit for the spending, but are not responsible for the revenues. And since its free, no one worries that spending on X means not spending on Y. If you cut federal taxes by a dollar, raise local taxes by 80 cents, and still come out ahead, you still get blamed for the 80 cents. I guess the serfs are not bright enough to catch on.
Did anyone notice how cities did better in the 1980s when Reagan cut spending on EVERYONE. I did. We had to do this report with the Dinkins era planning commission. To every problem that the city had, their solution was more federal money and more federal programs. So I asked do you think the city is getting a fair share of federal resources now? No, they said, its unfair. So why, I asked, did they want the federal government to pull more money out of the city in the hopes of getting a higher share of it back. Its always the next dollar that will be spent in the city.
P.S. NY State's overall federal spending per capita is at the national average. We we spend double per recipient on Medicaid as everyone else, in part because people from around the country show up here when their sick, in part because the Medico-industrial complex is so rich and powerful. We get heath care waste, others get infrastructure. Our "representatives" protect that de facto deal. Our roads and transit systems may not be expanding much, but you should see all the new hospitals.
I want my money raised and spent locally. When those outside the city aren't ripping us off, some of those working in the city (commuting in from the burbs no doubt) are.
Smaller government means no safety standards while the tax monies are funneled to the largest bribers(i mean contributors right?) Think back to a Reagan era grant to transit agencies only to buy more new busses while they were decimating the operating budgets to run them. As to sharing revenues with other areas, when we were debating federal aid to education while I was a junior high schooler, the stats claimed that the feds pissed away a smaller percentage of total receipts than any given state--thus the fed $$ were more efficient. Do I believe that today? I would need access to data which you probably have at your fingertips In any event, as is evident from TODAY'S overseas news Balkanization is alive and well. I believe that for all its stupidity and faults a single PRR-LIRR when it cared to was capable of well coordinated services. Recent comments about ATK v. NJT/SEPTA on the NY/Philly line do not augur well for increased decentralization. Finally I imagine a Bklyn res. who rarely (or never) goes to SI whining about funding the ferries. Goose--gander???
I go to Staten Island more often than you might imagine, usually to count the number of cars parked in parking spaces in shopping centers, and other official business. Free ferry? Well, I agreed that the ride from Staten Island to Manhattan should be one fare instead of three. Then I agreed that it would cost too much to figure out who were among the few who walk on both ends and charge them, relative to the amount of money collected. So you end up with a free ferry. But most people do pay on one end or the other.
As I said, like many of our representatives I was all for the "were all in it together" philosophy until I realized how much the city is hated -- hated in the rest of the country and how the easiest way to line up votes on a bill is to screw NY. I'm afraid New Yorkers have to give up that dream to survive in this political environment.
The rhetoric gets worse and worse, and so do the deals. We have 20 percent below the poverty line, 35 kids in a kindergarten class, and rusting 100 year old bridges, and we're subsidizing others?
My wife and I give a lot to charity, and as two economists we have a budget for it like everything else. One of our rules is not to make charitible contributions to those who are richer than we are. What do you call charity to those who are richer than you are, and who hold you in contempt? Ripoff.
What do you call charity to those who are richer than you are, and who hold you in contempt? Ripoff. ----TAXES levied by crooked (what else ) politicos
You know what really makes me mad? Politicians appearing at meetings to announce a grant of X dollars to some organized group, and the group thanking them. Like its out of my own pocket! We see Assemblyman or Councilmember Schmedrick, along with managers of corporations spending their shareholder's money, listed as benefactors with people who actually reduced their own standard of living or order to contribute to others. It makes me sick.
No, its OUR money you're giving away. We just hire you to decide how best to distribute it. And guess what, I am not pleased with those decisions, because (among other reasons) NYC's spending on transportation, as a share of the income of its residents, is not HALF the national average. It is always below the national average, but as the boom has raised incomes not one cent of the additional cash has gone to infrastructure. And these bozo's want to the THANKED. They'll be out of here, along with most of the fools who vote for them , in ten years. I'll bet they already own condos in Florida.
When ever the Goverment Fed or State takes your money you never get back 100% of what you paid.
Spending bills,Bah Humbug. The disproportionate distribution of federal money is only the beginning. Federal money distributed to the older and larger urban mass-transit systems has less impact than the money spent on new systems. There has been a long-standing provision of the Urban Mass Transit Act (I think it's called 11c). What it basically says is that no federal money may be used for mass transit improvement if the money is used to bring in new technology which will ultimately eliminate jobs. The Republicans have been trying to do away with 11c while the democrats keep vetoing all attempts. The one way around this provision is privitization. (Like Boston busses??) If the money can't be used to improve efficiency, I say "Keep it".
"What it basically says is that no federal money may be used for mass transit improvement if the money is used to bring in new technology which will ultimately eliminate jobs."
A provision like that clearly puts existing transit systems at a funding disadvantage to new systems, since a new system using the latest technology is by definition not eliminating jobs because there were no transit jobs in that city before the new system was planned, ratified, and built.
Of course, new systems have another funding advantage: unless they totally fail to attract riders, which no system commenced in the last 20 years has done, they can show themselves to be more effective at removing commuters from cars than an existing system because they are starting from basically zero.
That was exactly my point.
This is something that I've always wondered about.
To you fine men and women who operate our subway trains, are there ever "races" from one station to the other?
If a northbound 'B' and 'F' train arrive at 34th at the same time, will the conductor of one train "race" the other to 42nd for whatever reason(bad day, quick ride, sudden competitive urgings)?
Is this something that really happens?
Does this also happen on the #'s 1,2,3,9 trains. I notice that sometimes the trains pull up side by side and sometimes the local even beets the Express until the local slows to stop at a local station. I always hope we win.
You've probably noticed how locals go zooming ahead of expresses when two trains run side by side, only to start slowing down at the next local stop. That's the redeeming factor when riding an express: you know your train will keep going - usually, anyway. If there are delays, the local ends up winning.
Still, given a choice, I'll take an express...
Going to 36 Street is tough thing to do. Normally I get off at Atlantic street on the D train. To transfer to the M train. Crazy enough I see alot of people not getting on the M train. Alot of people ask the Driver if this is the Express train. When I get on the M train it is empty and when I get off at 36 Street nither a B or a N train has passed the M train. Why do the people take the B and N trains when it is packed while the M train empty and can be there faster that both of those lines. I give my thanks to those drivers of the M train.
Most likely it's perception. Most people figure the M would take longer, since there are 4 local stops between Pacific St. and 36th St. Unless the R-68s on the B plod along, that express run was always fast with R-32s, slant R-40s, and R-42s. Interestingly enough, there is one distinctive feature on that stretch of the 4th Ave. line which I haven't seen anywhere else: there are crash walls between each track, with narrow slits every 5 or 6 feet, even at stations. These crash walls are tiled at stations, specifically, the side of the crash wall which faces the platform. You can still see these tiles at the abandoned Myrtle Ave. station as well. From 36th St. to 59th St., only the express tracks have a crash wall between them, if I remember right; at 45th and 53rd, there are I-beams between each track, 5 feet apart.
I was recently browsing through record albums at a used record store,
and I came across an album by B.T. Express, which was a 1970's disco
group, entitled "Do It ('Til You're Satisfied)", and the album cover
shows the group posing on an elevated station platform. The Platform
had very elaborately detailed iron railings. The back cover shows a
train pulling into the station. Can anyone who is familiar with that
album tell me what el that is, or was? I bought the album just for
the photos. I read the album's credits, but they don't say where the
photos were taken. I know that B.T. Express was from Brooklyn, so I'm
assuming that the photos were taken in Brooklyn, but I've never seen
any station in Brooklyn with that style of ornamental ironwork in the
railings, and I go to New York City often to ride the subways. Hope
someone can help me with this. This has me VERY curious!! Thanks.
This must have been the Atlantic Av. LIRR. It looks just like the area. A record store owner at th corner of Franklin & Fulton (no longer there) insisted it was the Franklin Shuttle, but you can see it is a through line, and the highrise in the distance is not visible from the shuttle, but I think one (the Atlantic towers) is visible from the LIRR. It is probably the Nostrand Station.
BTW, someting I found interesting: we almost had a subway line called the "BT express". In the early Chrystie St proposals, the combined BB and T service was originally going to be called the BT. But since it was express in Brooklyn, they dropped the second letter.
Even after the Chrystie St. connection opened, the TT service remained as a late night and Sunday shuttle from 36th St. to Coney Island. It was dropped after July 1, 1968, at which time 57th St-6th Ave. opened and the B began running 24/7 (rush hours to 168th St.). New York Subway Cars has a photo of a TT of R-32s at Stillwell Ave., and Under the Sidewalks of New York has a photo of a train of brand new R-32s sporting TT signs in, presumably, the tunnel connecting Chambers St. to the south side tracks of the Manhattan Bridge (at that time).
You're probably right: since the B ran/runs express along 4th Ave., it made better sense to give it a single letter. Question: were there plans to have a DQ or QD Brighton Express along those same lines (no pun intended)?
Here is something which may be of interest to SubTalkers:
Amateur and professional photographers and videographers of all ages
are cordially invited to the Shore Line Trolley Museum's Shutterbug
Special Day. This one day event, Saturday June 13, 1998, will feature
the "rare birds" of the museum's vintage trolley and transit collection, many of which have not been publicly displayed in years.
Expect to see everything from a little horsecar to a giant interurban,
cars which hail from around the corner and around the world, cars which have been in our collection for 50+ years, and one car which just arrived, straight from the carbuilder's plant!
Bring plenty of film or tape as these cars pose for stills and
run-bys along the museum's scenic mile and a half line. We'll be setting up special shots throughout the day. Don't be afraid to
ask for special requests too.
The Shore Line Trolley Museum, established in 1945, is located at
17 River Street in East Haven, Connecticut, just 3 minutes from exit
51/52 of I-95. The museum's scenic country trolley line, which has
seen continuous service since July 1900, is listed in the National
Register of Historic Sites.
Call (203)467-6927 for more information, or visit the museum's
web page at www.bera.org. Event runs 11AM-4PM on Saturday June 13, with a rain date of June 20.
As they say, "you can't control the weather"
Shore Line Trolley Museum Shutterbug Special, Take 2:
Yes, the Shutterbug Special was postponed because of rain
on Saturday June 13. It will be held on the scheduled
rain date of Saturday June 20.
The museum's regular first run is 10:30 AM. Look for the action
to start at around 11, and continue till about 4.
We will be holding a little contest in conjunction with this event.
Three prizes, in the form of gift certificates, will be awarded for
the best shots taken that day.
I won't repost the original announcement since you can read it
fairly easily by clicking on something nearby.
The Shore Line Trolley Museum is located in East Haven, CT,
exit 51N/52S on I-95. Call (203)467-6927 [10:30-4:30] for
more information and/or use the web site: http://www.bera.org
Does anyone have any idea at all if the SEPTA strike will end within
the next 2 weeks, or what are the chances that this strike will be
similar to the 1983 commuter rail strike, that lasted 108 days? Why
can't SEPTA limit the length of their strikes, by saying "We're going
on strike for 2 weeks", etc.? I just hope that the SEPTA strike
doesn't last through the entire summer. Hope someone can answer.
Thanks.
TimÑ
Don't expect this strike to end soon.
You've got two immovable objectsÑSEPTA, which wants work rules givebacks, but is willing to boost union pay and pensions, and guarantee no layoffsÑand TWU Local 234, which wants the best parts of SEPTA's offer, but doesn't want to give up on any work rules.
TWU talks of binding arbitration. You think SEPTA's going to risk having an arbitrator let the union have it's cake and eat it, too? I don't think so.
Today, they blocked an R7 Trenton train, suspending that service and causing delays on Amtrak's Northeast Corridor line, which uses that track. So what message did they send? That they're not above pissing off people from ALL OVER THE EAST COAST to get their way?
The poll someone mentioned from the Philly Daily News the other day? It was an unscientific call-in poll. I wouldn't be surprised if the union set up people just to call the poll to skew the results.
I am certain there are many TWU members who don't want to strike, but they are afraid to cross the lines. Why? You are dealing with an old-time union, who is not above using intimidation and scare tactics to get people to do their bidding. Those of you who live in Philly: look at their leaders? Do they not look like thugs?
If Subway-buff was their leader, there would be no strike. Instead, these people would realize that any loss in ridership would eventually cost them jobs, and that keeping their customers is more important than walking out to make a point. The unions in New York have learned that.
I have also had a leader of an Philly-area union tell me that the TWU was dumb to go out. HE would have taken the money in exchange for the work rule givebacks.
So I would dig in. This won't be easy. But eventually, I predict the union will be broken. And hopefully, saner people will then prevail.
Michael
1- thanks for the compliment.
2- SEPTA R-7 is out. AMTRAk has avdised their trains to stop at Levittown and wait for police authorization to proceed
3=NJT has extra police at Trenton to guard NJT trains.
4- The conductor of my NJT train suggested taking bus to Philly due to AMTRAK delays due to 234 blocking the tracks.
Can we say good=bye SEPTA ? I think that they'll try to raise fares to make up some of the loss which will lead to reduced ridership- a classic death-spiral. I've seen it happen to the Bus System in Memphis, TN. They cut out the 12:15 AM bus service, then they cut out night service on most lines, thent hey cut out Sunday Service asnd then Holioday service(the latter on all lines.)
The lines that did run all day, many were cut back to rush hours only and some all day were run at reduced frequenct=like every 2 hours!
This mess kind of makes me think about the next NYC contract. I wonder how the total wages and benefits of line personnel compares with fare box revenues? I wouldn't be surprised if they were about the same.
How about this for a contract: union members divide the farebox. Benefits are paid for first, then every worker gets a share of the cash based on their title/experience.
What would that do? Productivity gains (fewer workers to do the same work) could only mean a) higher wages or b) smaller fare increases or c) better service. Mostly a) in the short run. An actual incentive for the union. Rising ridership would mean the same thing. Hey, this is OUR company! It would turn TA workers into the world's biggest transit advocates. More capital spending to improve the system would lead to more riders, which would lead to more revenues, which would lead to more pay. Today, system improvements are thought to compete with higher pay.
Instead of negotiating pay increases and pretending the money would drop from the sky, the union would negotiate fare increases by pitching a public case (hey, your wages went up X, prices went up Y, how about a raise for us?). Everyone, the unions and the riders, would have to think about fairness, instead of trying to beat "the system." Farebeating and unreasonable demands would seem unfair to real people.
The idea that there is a system to beat leads to stupid strikes like this one, along with the "save the fare" nonsense and farebeating.
This is my fear. We've already seen the "owl" service whittled down to a skeleton system and the fare is already among the highest in the nation. Riders who have been displaced will not all return once service resumes (or if?). The lack of gridlock and disaster during the strike will give anti-transit folks more ammunition that SEPTA and its high costs to the taxpayers is just one more luxury that we can do without. Of course, these are all extreme viewpoints, but we lived through it before when the '95 strike ended. This is why I cannot understand 234's stubbornness. While the leadership was different last time, the members were here and lived through it. Haven't they learned anything from the experience?
The blocking of train lines, vandalism, etc that 234 seems intent upon is not winning any support for them among the displaced riders. Would you be any more sympathetic if you had to wait up to four hours in miserable, rainy weather on a train platform in Bucks County because some dopey picketers decided it was your turn to be inconvenienced? 234 doesn't realize that it is only hurting working people by doing what it's doing. If they want to raise hell outside 1234 Market, fine, but why bother those who are just trying to make a living? It just doesn't make any sense.
The 234 leaders look like thugs and act like thugs so the natural following is that they must be thugs. They are certainly acting like it.
I have been told that union members are calling in incidents that don't exist or haven't happened, calling to complain about service stoppages like the one they caused on the Trenton line yesterday, and also posting on-line messages with SEPTA GM's home address and phone number asking for hookers to call and visit. There's organized labor and then there's organized goons. This is NO way to settle the strike.
I have also been told that 234'ers with bullhorns have been invading Suburban Station and Market East in the PM peak giving intentional misdirection to train riders and drowning out official announcements. Again, if they want sympathy, they're busy alienating those who may be the most sympathetic - displaced riders and working people.
Meanwhile, the region isn't suffering and, aside from the boneheaded blockades of rail lines (which, as you noted, affected the entire Amtrak corridor - the trespassers should be thrown in jail!), the strike is no longer the top story in the local media. The longer it lasts, more and more riders will find other ways. You'd think Brookens and company would've figured this out, but by the looks of things, they're slow learners.
Would arbitration work? You are correct that SEPTA is reluctant to go, but perhaps because they'd like to try one more shot at a negotiated settlement. 234 is saying it's willing, but when push comes to shove, will it participate?
This looks like one side of the story, I was a union pres. for ten years for a firefighters union. We had a no strike clause to protect
the public. It must be understood that managements stand is to make labor look bad to the public. Maybe the union would not have revert to
acting like goons if management would treat them with respect. Most all of upper management in organizations like SEPTA are nomads,moving from one place to another just to better them selfs,I have seen it to many times in my 23 years as a union brother. Ask how many GM'S have over 20 years with the organization. Then go talk to that striker on the train platform, you may find a different story there. All he or she wants is a good and fair wage, good benfits for their famlies,
and alittle respect from management. Is that asking for to much?
Yeah, for Big BobW it is. I understand he may be PO at the fact his life may be disrupted because of a strike, but the workers ain't getting paid either. Bob must be a butler who works 85 hours a week for a flat salary or a highly paid executive who gets paid to do alot of nothing!
No, Fernando, I am neither. I was part of a union once, and am glad not to be part of it any more (no, I wasn't in 234). The union of which I was a member took the same approach to things as 234 is currently doing - it grandstanded for the press and the benefit of its higher echelon when strike time came, it forgot about its membership and unilaterally decided what issues it felt were important and worth bargaining for, it did not consult the membership when management made offers, and, in the end, it became quite apparent that it was more interested in job protection for only the most senior folks. This is why I'm no longer a union member.
While I am inconvenienced by the strike, life goes on and I'm still getting around. And so are most other Phila residents. The longer the strike lasts, the dimmer the prospects for better transit in Phila become. I'm not siding with either labor or management here, since there are sins on each side (and if they'd both talk, it would be immensely helpful) - I'm concerned what will be left when it's all over. Already I don't get as good service as I'd like, and I'm sure it will only get worse. And, as you've seen in my posts, we are not experiencing the "end of the world" with traffic gridlock, etc, so maybe we don't need transit as much as everyone says we do. It won't take long for this mindset to gel.
Transit workers have no easy job and I certainly don't envy them. But, as you've also seen in my posts, the lack of professionalism is very noticeable. It's a shame and I don't know what can be done about it - I don't have any easy answers. Are they worth $17 + per hour? I don't know. I do know that the stunts like blocking Red Arrow lines and commuter rail routes, to me, are only hurting things with their allies, working people, you and me. SEPTA management could care less if this happens - it only takes the heat off them and turns it up on TWU.
I'm managing to do without, and right now I'm thinking about staying away once the buses return. It's not something I'd like to do but...
A proper strike should be conducted as such: (i.e, picketing of the SEPTA City Division properties, "friendly" picketing of adjoining SEPTA property (not blocking equipment, etc. and dispersing when requested to do so) and conducting themselves in a manner proper to transit professionals. Does 234 do this - NO!!!! The Union Executives have behaved in a manner of criminals and should be prosecuted. TWU 234 should be legally disbarred as the representative of the City Division employees and another transit union elected as the labor organization.
Are we going to see streetcars, buses and rapid transit cars with their windows covered in wire grating as in Milwaukee in the 1930's??
I would not count it out. 234's goons might be rocking Suburban Division before this stupid strike is finally settled.
Wait and see.
This looks like one side of the story, I was a union pres. for ten years for a firefighters union. We had a no strike clause to protect
the public. It must be understood that managements stand is to make labor look bad to the public. Maybe the union would not have revert to
acting like goons if management would treat them with respect. Most all of upper management in organizations like SEPTA are nomads,moving from one place to another just to better them selfs,I have seen it to many times in my 23 years as a union brother. Ask how many GM'S have over 20 years with the organization. Then go talk to that striker on the train platform, you may find a different story there. All he or she wants is a good and fair wage, good benfits for their famlies,
and alittle respect from management. Is that asking for to much?
Yeah, for Big BobW it is. I understand he may be PO at the fact his life may be disrupted because of a strike, but the workers ain't getting paid either. Bob must be a butler who works 85 hours a week for a flat salary or a highly paid executive who gets paid to do alot of nothing!
No, Fernando, I am neither. I was part of a union once, and am glad not to be part of it any more (no, I wasn't in 234). The union of which I was a member took the same approach to things as 234 is currently doing - it grandstanded for the press and the benefit of its higher echelon when strike time came, it forgot about its membership and unilaterally decided what issues it felt were important and worth bargaining for, it did not consult the membership when management made offers, and, in the end, it became quite apparent that it was more interested in job protection for only the most senior folks. This is why I'm no longer a union member.
While I am inconvenienced by the strike, life goes on and I'm still getting around. And so are most other Phila residents. The longer the strike lasts, the dimmer the prospects for better transit in Phila become. I'm not siding with either labor or management here, since there are sins on each side (and if they'd both talk, it would be immensely helpful) - I'm concerned what will be left when it's all over. Already I don't get as good service as I'd like, and I'm sure it will only get worse. And, as you've seen in my posts, we are not experiencing the "end of the world" with traffic gridlock, etc, so maybe we don't need transit as much as everyone says we do. It won't take long for this mindset to gel.
Transit workers have no easy job and I certainly don't envy them. But, as you've also seen in my posts, the lack of professionalism is very noticeable. It's a shame and I don't know what can be done about it - I don't have any easy answers. Are they worth $17 + per hour? I don't know. I do know that the stunts like blocking Red Arrow lines and commuter rail routes, to me, are only hurting things with their allies, working people, you and me. SEPTA management could care less if this happens - it only takes the heat off them and turns it up on TWU.
I'm managing to do without, and right now I'm thinking about staying away once the buses return. It's not something I'd like to do but...
A proper strike should be conducted as such: (i.e, picketing of the SEPTA City Division properties, "friendly" picketing of adjoining SEPTA property (not blocking equipment, etc. and dispersing when requested to do so) and conducting themselves in a manner proper to transit professionals. Does 234 do this - NO!!!! The Union Executives have behaved in a manner of criminals and should be prosecuted. TWU 234 should be legally disbarred as the representative of the City Division employees and another transit union elected as the labor organization.
Are we going to see streetcars, buses and rapid transit cars with their windows covered in wire grating as in Milwaukee in the 1930's??
I would not count it out. 234's goons might be rocking Suburban Division before this stupid strike is finally settled.
Wait and see.
What's a typical speed of a subway train in a tunnel?
Thanks.
Because of a couple of incidents over the past few years, the TA has lowered the speed limit on some lines. To add to that, signals along certain stretches of track on some lines have been adjusted to make trains keep at a slow to moderate speed. This means you will have one or two signals being "yellow", then the next one being "red" with a "white" light being lit as well. If you want speed, the IRT Lexington in Manhattan has been unaffected by these changes. The train can reach close 50 mph as it blazes down the tracks with a up and down wavy motion at times that can put you to sleep.
-Garfield
They also hit 50 in the Joralemon St. tunnel.
The #3 exp redbirds fly between 42nd and 96th... before Lenox rehab. The reached up to 45+.
The fastest are the E and R trains under the East River.
You must be referring to the 2. The 3 uses R-62As, since maximum train length on the 3 is 9 cars. Redbirds operate in married pairs, so you can't have a 9-car train of them. (The World's Fair single R-33s are never used on the mainlines, not to my knowledge, anyway.)
From the Chicago perspective - the top speed I’ve witnessed on trains operating in Chicago was about 58 MPH. And there are some short stretches, in the subway, where the operator can get up to that speed. In Chicago, all cab’s are fitted with CAB signal color light and speed-o-meter equipment. You can view the speed-o-meter from the 2nd forward facing seat.
The top official speed in Chicago anywhere on the system is 55 MPH. There are two lines that will allow the trains to coast at a faster speed without "penalty" braking. Those lines are the O’Hare portion of the Blue Line beyond Foster Avenue and on the new portions of the Orange Line. All other lines, both ‘L’ and subway are 55 MPH tops.
The State Street and Dearborn subways are equipped with ABS (automatic block signals) with "trip" arms. When in this territory the CAB signal system is "cut out". I’m told by an operator friend of mine that the 55 MPH limit is not valid, so theoretically, a train can exceed 55 MPH. In ABS territory, speed is controlled by the wayside signals.
You asked about the subway, however, in Chicago most of the right-of-way is not subway. There is quite a bit of 55 MPH running on the elevated structure. Thrilling, if you’re really into it.
I've seen Blue Line trains hit 65 in the median of the Kennedy Expressway. Straight off the speedometer. 55 sounds about right in the tunnels, although it seems faster in close confines. The only elevated stretch I can of where trains could hit 55 would be the Purple Evanston Express north of Wilson on the straightaway. Maybe the Skokie Swift, too. I do know that those subway runs in Chicago are noisy as hell - this has been discussed before. Even New York's trains aren't half as loud.
The swift runs long streches at 55. At one time they ran somwhere close to 80, but it was hard on the equipment and track and with non stop serive between Dempster and Howard St. it did not save much time.
The maximum speed on the SWIFT (Yellow Line) was 70 MPH. 5 miles at an average speed of 46 mph.
It has been quite some time since the phrase "5 miles in 5 ½ minutes" has been used. I think it was posted on a sign outside the old North Shore Station on Dempster Street. How things have changed. Back in the 1960’s, a transit system stressed "5 ½" rather than "6" minutes.
Back then, the frequency of service was MUCH more than it is today so the need for quick turns has diminished. And remember back then the original North Shore jointed rail, and their block signal system was used to govern the SWIFT.
Today, CTA runs the SWIFT with new MK pair's, welded rail and CAB signals and the slogan could be now "5 miles in 8 minutes".
One Sunday morning I was riding a Red Line detour train over the ‘L’. In the stretch between Sedgwick curve and the "church detour" the operator had his six car consist up to 55 MPH when the CAB signal warning sounded. The slow down for that curve begins just before the slight jog in the tracks. If you are familiar with the line you probably know where I mean. The Lake Street trains get up to an easy 55 MPH between Ashland and California.
They sure like to peg those trains up on straight elevated stretches, don't they? It's funny: Red Line trains never seemed to go that fast along the straightaway embakment north of Wilson, even when they still had A/B skip-stop service.
From the NY Times this morning
How many do you think would really benefit?
Low-Cost Metrocard Might Be Sold Only to Tourists
By ANDY NEWMAN
NEW YORK -- Fearing that the planned one-day, unlimited bus and subway Metrocard is priced so low that it could be a big money-loser, city transit officials want to sell the $4 pass only at hotels and other tourist spots, according to an official who has worked on developing the passes.
"You won't be able to walk up to a token clerk and ask for it," said the transit official, who spoke only on condition of anonymity, adding that the move was expressly intended to suppress sales. "Essentially, this is a way to make the 24-hour pass a rational part of the unlimited-ride program. Otherwise we'd be selling humongous numbers of 24-hour cards."
The plan, the official said, is being pushed by New York City Transit, which runs the buses and subways, and would have to be approved by Transit's parent agency, the Metropolitan Transportation Authority.
The MTA executive in charge of Metrocards, Christopher Boylan, was not available to comment Wednesday, and a spokesman, Tom Kelly, would not discuss the finances or the availability of the day passes, which are expected to be offered this fall. A spokesman for Gov. George Pataki, the driving force behind the passes, said plans for the day passes were "still subject to all kinds of changes."
"Our focus is more on the monthly and weekly passes at this point," said the governor's spokesman, Michael McKeon. The MTA plans to offer monthly Metrocards for $63 and weekly cards for $17 starting July 4. Transit officials have said that they expect the entire package of daily, weekly and monthly passes to add 100 million rides a year to the system and cost the agency more than $200 million a year.
McKeon said that the day pass, known as the Fun Pass, had been intended all along to be primarily for tourists. And indeed, when the governor announced the pass last December, he said it was "largely aimed at people, whether they're tourists or visitors to New York for a period of days, who will be able to go downtown and see the Statue of Liberty, go uptown and see Yankee Stadium or the Bronx Zoo, go over to Shea Stadium or take a crosstown bus to the revitalized Times Square to see the theater, all for only $4."
But advocates for riders said they had assumed that a family from, say, Queens, would not have to make a side trip to the Waldorf-Astoria before beginning a day of sightseeing.
"When the governor announced the one-day Fun Pass, he didn't say that only tourists would have fun," said Gene Russianoff, staff lawyer for the Straphangers Campaign.
The transit official speaking on condition of anonymity said the agency was worried that commuters could find the pass -- priced at less than the cost of three rides -- all too convenient for occasional transit splurges.
"If you used it at 8:30 Tuesday morning, you could use it again at 8:15 Wednesday morning," he said. In that case, any trips in addition to the ride home Tuesday night would be effectively free.
"If they had made it so that there were restrictions -- that you could only use it after 9:30 a.m., or if you priced it at $6, it would be OK," the official said. "But at $4 it's not part of any rational price structure." The prices for the monthly, weekly and daily passes were "set by the governor in a decision process that nobody can discern," the official said. "It just happened."
Jonathan Sigall, the Associate Director of the Permanent Citizens Advisory Committee to the MTA, a monitoring group, said he hoped the agency would reconsider its marketing plans.
"I agree that $4 is a very generous price for the one-day pass, and I certainly understand their concerns about losing a lot of money," he said. "But the way the governor proposed this is that it would be available to everybody."
Thursday, June 11, 1998
Copyright 1998 The New York Times
It may cost the agency 200 million but their revenues will still be up thanks to the increased ridership.
Marty,
What is sad is that most of these B-I-G decisions R made by folk that commute to work in Limos or fly in on choppers.
Will your average joe buy the "Fun-Pass" like a pacakage of cookies or stop by the TA booth every day for a new card ?
If eye still worked in NYC eye might buy a couple for those days I was going to make a couple of extra trips, i.e. NY PC Expo, & use my "value" card for my regular 2 trip per day day.
Why didn't they think of a 2 or 3 day card ? If you're on vacation your probally not going do it in one day, AND if you're comming in for a Broadway show (with family) U would buy TWO "value" card for $6, i.e. four folks two rides each incl Transfers.
Mr t__:^)
You know "T", I feel the same. Maybe me, and 100 other transit nuts may make a weekly trip to ride the system all day (and in my case it would mean forking over an additional $19 or more to the other pocket of MTA on Metro-North) for $4, but I can't see thousands of City workers going out to do the town every night because they have a subway pass to get home.
The passes make the suystem more effective. If the pass is priced = to or above two rides, (3-4 fares is ideal) it just might make using transit more convienent and peoplew would use it mor often. Rides taken after AM and PM peak just take up unused cappacity. It costs about the same to run an empty vehicle as a full one.
latest word regarding the daily unlimited $4 metrocard, initially only weekly($17) and monthly($63) monthly plus($120) will be offered at NYCTA Stations first week of July. Daily will be offered initally off site. All I repeat all unlimited passes have a Pass Back Feature which is not a glitch in software, the unlimited pass isn't intended for group use but can be given to a friend or family member.
[ The prices for the monthly, weekly and daily passes were "set by the governor in a decision process that nobody can discern," the official said. "It just happened." ]
Can you say "5 cent fare"? :)
[ But advocates for riders said they had assumed that a family from, say, Queens, would not have to make a side trip to the Waldorf-Astoria before beginning a day of sightseeing. ]
Doesn't Chicago's CTA have a discount pass that no one seems able to get because, at the time, booth agents (there are no booth agents now) never had them?
--Mark
Hey Mark be nice. I remember the 5 cent fare (discounted to 3 cents because I was a Ute-note: that's not the same as a Ute from Utah)
How much do you want to bet that Grand Central, Penn Station, and other MetroNorth and LIRR stations qualify as "tourist areas."
Seriously, the whole thing is a misfire if it encourages more people to ride on peak, without providing special benefits to those who ride off peak.
Man oh man, you got that right.
The whole point of the single subway system + MABSTOA etc is one city one fare. In fact the recent abolition of the two fare system between bus and suib is great. AND like Pavlov's dogs, coincident with a much better general economy, they came back to transit in droves. Yes there are other demographic reasons, younger, fewer cars owned, more recent immigrants,--but the point is here we have the system flourishing--no summer cut back. The best ways to abort this are either shafting people because of their bosses' scheduling policies or exit swipe distance pricing. DON'T DO IT!.
As to one day tickets consider this -- friend from out of town arrives to spend day with you. The several of you run all over on one day passes using transit for exactly its designed purpose--withoutr regard to price! The larger the usage the lower the head cost.
personally a 12 rides for the price of 10 would have gone over better better than unlimited passes. Supposedly the $4 daily passes will be sold through hotels and some off site locations initially. From what i've been told daily will be eventually sold in station booths. A daily pass for $4 purchased daily for 5 days comes out to $20. for the daily commuter the$63 seems about right. Off peak discounts to relieve rush hour crowding would have been a much bigger crowd pleaser, but lets not count it out. lets face it metrocard is still in its infancy and more avenues to attract more customers is making number crunchers quake with possibilities. Overall the alledged surplus of money should have gone to give us more service subways and bus.
The last time I was in Toronto I had to work the first day. Since I started early and had several places to be, and the day pass did not begin till after 9:00 AM I used my car. I got in a terrible traffic jam on queen street going back to my hotel. The next day I took off and used the subway and streetcars all day to go where I needed to.
Too bad there was the disinsentive for me to use transit when I was visiting and working but needed to be out at AM peak.
A day pass should be available for everyone not just tourists and not just off peak. If it's priced at three one way fares you collect the peak fares and one off peak ride. Any other rides just fill excess cappacity and make using the system more attractive and more effective.
If weekly and monthly passes are priced right the daily pass for ocasional rides should not cut into the sales of the longer term passes and will encourage infrequent riders to ride more.
I distinctly remember someone here mentioning that the plan/proposal for the daily unlimited-use Metrocards was to expire them at midnight on the date of purchase. Thus you wouldn't have the "8:30AM today, 8:15AM tomorrow" problem mentioned on the article.
Kevin, Upon reading the handout for bus drivers more carefully:
For all 3 cards "Good until MIDNIGHT (on the day)(7 days from the day)(30 days from the day) you first use the card not from the day it was purchased"
Mr t__:^)
As something of night crawler with somewhat flexible work hours, I'll take advantage of the fact that my evening doesn't always end at midnight, even on nights before work.
I might start a new daily card to come home from a night out in NYC at 12:30 a.m., then use it again to go back to work in the morning (OK, the LATE morning), then maybe to go out in NYC yet again at, say, 7 p.m. that night, maybe another ride during the evening, then, if I go home before midnight (and fatigue may demand it), I'll have gotten four or five rides for the price of two and two-thirds.
Same with the weekly card. If I have a busy weekend planned in NYC, I'll start a new card on my way home from a Friday night out in NYC at 12:30 a.m. Saturday, then use it all weekend, and commute all the next week. When I'm not planning a NYC Transit-filled weekend, I'll just use the value-based card to commute Monday through Friday as usual.
That is, if I don't die of exhaustion first!
As a Hanna-Barbara cartoon character once said, "It's a great act, but it's still got a few bugs in it." Does anyone remember Magilla Gorilla?
What happened to the tech trains running on the A line and the 2 line?
I havent seen them in months!
And I saw a picture of the new trains order by the MTA and they look nothing like them. What happened. I like the way they looked
They are out of service indefinitely due to mechanical problems.
--Mark
I though that the R-110B are back on the C line?
I have a NY Times article somewhere in my pile
of stuff dated Aug 25 1996 and it states that
100 of these R110B's are to be ordered as an
addition to the current fleet, to provide additional
trains for the Queens Boulevard line, ostensibly
to serve the new 63rd St.connection (which, as
we all know won't be open until 2001 - so they say)
Anything to confirm or deny this rumour?
P.S. I vote for the "V". (My pop's first name starts
with it - he'd LOVE to see a "V" train!)
I don't believe it's actually going to be a new line with a new letter. It's simply going to be an extension of a line that already exists (for example permanently running the Q over the new Shuttle line and then on to the Boulevard).
R 110A in 207 shops 8010-8009-8008-8007-8006 in main overhaul shop
i was at 207 st for time based metrocard training on my way to cafetertia during break for lunch. trucks were i guess being inspected on the 5 cars of the consist cars were on jacks
The R-110B is back (2/3) in service on the C line. Cars 3001 trough 3006 are reuunig regularly again. Cars 3007 - 3009 have become parts 'donors'. Since this train was never built as anything other than a test of new technologies, it was maintained by the vendors. Now that the tests are essentially over, and no spare parts have been ordered, this is the a sensible alternative. Perhaps the remaining two units will ultimately become the Franklin Shuttle?
The R-110B is back (2/3) in service on the C line. Cars 3001 trough 3006 are reuunig regularly again. Cars 3007 - 3009 have become parts 'donors'. Since this train was never built as anything other than a test of new technologies, it was maintained by the vendors. Now that the tests are essentially over, and no spare parts have been ordered, this is the a sensible alternative. Perhaps the remaining two units will ultimately become the fleet for the Franklin Shuttle?
I work in the Wall Street area and Take the lexington line to work.
The line is impossible most of the time. Overly packed trains and delays everywhere on it. A ride from Bowling green Station to 14th Street can take an hour sometimes there is the slightest delay. The Second AVe subway can alleviate this line so much but what happened to the plans. Are they going to do something with it or have they abandoned the plan completly
*Technically* the Second Avenue subway is still alive. But note that it's "alive" in the sense that Walt Disney is alive, in a state of suspended animation (though without Walt's liquid nitrogen) but highly unlikely to be revived anytime soon. Even worse, the latest plans don't call for anything south of 63rd Street, which would do little to relieve the worst of the congestion.
Bits and pieces of it were built from 1972 thru 1975, 2 or 3 of which are under upper 2nd Ave (90s thru 110s). Unfortunately, the city experienced a monumental fiscal crisis in mid-decade, and no additional work has been done since. Technically, the Chrystie St. connection is part of the 2nd Ave line; the existing Grand St. station was designed to be expanded into a 4-track, 2 island platform station by adding outside tracks. Rumor has it that those outside tracks may be in place already behind the walls.
Anyway, I wouldn't hold my breath about its completion anytime soon. No doubt, it's badly needed.
If their plan to run it as as far south as 63rd Street
is true, then won't they connect it to the 63rd
Street line via those tracks they are alleged to
have behind the walls at Lexington Avenue?
To the Broadway line, or to the 6th Avenue
(One would guess the former).
The 63rd St station was designed to bring the 2nd Ave subway into the Broadway line, and the 63rd St tunnel into the 6th Avenue line. If I'm not mistaken, the 63rd St tunnel was also supposed to connect to the 2nd Ave subway southbound, so those from both the Upper East Side and the 63rd St tunnel would have the option of heading for the middle of Midtown or continuing south on 2nd Ave.
around 2 years ago on the news it was reported that a study regarding contruction of the 2nd ave was underway. I guess sometime in the next 50 years the three complete sections would be connected, but what would the complete route become?
Personally, I think the southern portion of the 2nd Ave should not be built, but the northern portion should be. When the 2nd Ave subway was designed, most of the Manhattan Central business district was south of 14th St. Everyone needed to go Downtown. Now, 2/3 of the jobs are in Midtown. Most residents living on the east side south of 59th St need to go east-west, not north-south. Moreover, a large share of the jobs are concentrated along the east side IRT, but few jobs are located east of 3rd Avenue. A Second Avenue subway would place riders from upper Manhattan, the Bronx, Brooklyn and Queens who work along the Park Ave corridor north of GCT as far from their jobs as the 6th Ave. subway does now.
Instead (talking fantasyland now), I think grade-separated east-west routes need to be built, as proposed by the city's 1969 plan. Those in Tudor City would ride west to Midtown then, if needed, south to Downtown after a transfer. When working in East Midtown, rather than packing on the Lex, those coming in from the boroughs could stay on their train then ride east on a crosstown. Those traveling Downtown from the upper east side would ride the Broadway Express all the way.
Since crosstown distances are short, frequent stops and slow speeds are not a problem (although the buses stop too frequently, and wait too long, due to the stoplights, and the proposed trolley would also take too long). Instead, short headways and short walks would be the goal. Perhaps some sort of automated guideway would be appropriate. The 1969 plan called for the study of "Rapid transit -- new technology systems" with routes along 48th St (top priority), 57th St, 42nd St (perhaps extending the 7 and shuttle), and 34th St. This was one of the few good ideas in the plan. Extension of the underground pedestrian network, with a connection between the Grand Central and Rock Center areas, would also be a good thing.
Unfortunately, after Lindsay bankrupted the city, New York destroyed and than partially rebuilt its existing transport system, rather than improving it. The city's future will depend on maintaining and expanding at the same time, something which has not occured since the 1950s.
If it were up to me, I would build the 2nd Avenue subway in three
stages:
The first step would be to build the portion from the 63rd Street
tunnel up to 125th Street. Part of the tunnel is already completed
minus tracks and signals) and this is the most badly needed section anyway. It would feed riders into the BMT Broadway, allowing riders on the Upper East Side and easy connect to the West Side of midtown and would provide relief on the Lexington Avenue line.
The second stage would be to build the portion from the Battery up to Grand Street. Again, I believe that part of the tunnel is already finished and the trains could switch over at Grand to the Sixth Avenue line. This could replace the current Q service to Queens, which by then will be riding down Queens Boulevard.
The last stage is to build the portion in between, connecting them together. Granted, this could easily take another few decades, but in this fashion, I could see the City lining up the necessary financing.
Larry, you obviously know much more about this than I do, but I still think the Second Avenue subway ought to go all the way up and down the island.
I'm biased, because it would be pure heaven for me personally -- I take the crowded Lex to work at 45th and Second, and I'm hoping to move to 93rd and Second.
But beyond that, a few things:
1. While commuters may be their biggest ridership, subways can also be about linking residential neighborhoods with each other (Upper East Side, Tudor City, Alphabet City. Stuyvesant Town), and also with attractions like the East Village's funky little clubs and restaurants --- the kind of places frequented by young starving artist types who depend on cheap mass transit.
2. There's something to be said for simple elegance in creating subway lines. You start off going straight downtown along Second --- so why veer? Long, straight lines are easier to understand and remember, as part of a subway system that befuddles too many people already.
3. Most of the "veers" in our subway were meant to take people "where all the jobs are." But that always changes, and then you're putting in another odd spur or loop to serve the new area. Isn't it more farsighted to say that, since Manhattan is a dynamic, space-starved island that has the potential to sprout new traffic patterns overnight, it makes sense simply to provide services where they ain't?
I think you can see all these benefits at work in the surface equivalent --- the long, Second Avenue-hugging route of my good friend the M15 bus.
I also have a bias. There is a huge concentration of jobs east of 5th, north of Grand Central, and no direct route for IND/BMT riders from Brooklyn to get there. My wife has to work in the area frequently, and the walk adds 20 minutes to her day. If she works late, she takes the Lex to the A to the F, and beats the alternative, but the Lex is very crowded at the peak. They say the Northern part of Park Slope is worth more because you can get the east side IRT or west side at Nevins. Changes across the platform aren't bad, changes through windy corridors aren't good.
One can always spend more money. One possiblility is to run a two-track line down Second Avenue and into the Nassau Loop to serve the residential areas, they create another two track line down Madison Avenue to link with the Broadway local at Madison Square. The Broadway local north of Madison Square would be abandoned or used for another purpose. The BMT Broadway Local and 2nd Avenue/Nassau combination would merge at the Montigue tunnel, and together form a 4 track B division service on the east side -- in two different places.
But you'd have to build it all to get full value, and that could take centuries. Each cross town would be valuable independent of anything else going on.
okay this may be far fetched but if they are not goin to build the second ave subway then they should at least build a light rail system in manhattan in which one can transfer from the subway to the light rail as one would to another subway
give us commuters on the 4/5/6 line something!!!!!!!!
The one thing you might get is a separate "high amenity" subway to serve suburan commuters traveling to Lower Manhattan. The proposed Lower Manhattan access study www.lowermanhattanacess.com proposes just that as one of the options. That, and the LIRR link to GCT, should just about soak up all the MTA mass transit funds for the next 30 years. I propose that the new "high amenity" subway be called "The Great White Way."
Perhaps after such a route is built, crowding on the "low amenity" subway would go down south of Grand Central.
On the transit newsgroup the other day, there was a discussion about 3 or 4 closed stations under Park Av on the Metro North. (I think, 59th, 72nd, 86, and someone added 110th, but as that section is elevated, I think that may be gone.) I suggested reopening them and having trains run from the North Bronx (like Wakefield or Woodlawn) to GCT. This would not only parallel the Lexington, but also the 2 and 5 in the Bronx, AND a couple of the proposed 2nd Av. routes. A couple of people responed that the Park Av residents might not like it, but hey, they're the ones who would benefit the most. Given the grave crowding problems on the East side, and the problems getting 2nd Av or any other East side alternative off the ground, The TA should seriously consider this.
I've often thought about that myself, and it seems like a good idea to me also. The question is, with trains stopping would there be enough capacity to get all the existing trains into GCT? I don't think the Park Ave crowd would object to a commuter rail line as they would to a subway. Best not to tell them it would also stop in the Bronx and Harlem, however.
Use whatever space for now that was to accommodate LIRR from the 63rd St tunnel in the future.
The idea gets more interesting all the time. When the LIRR is connected to Grand Central, that will free-up MTA capacity at Penn -- which could be seized by NJT. The MTA is, therefore, considering running some MetroNorth trains to Penn Station. New Haven Line trains can get to Penn Station now, via the Hell Gate Bridge. Stations on the Amtrack ROW could be added, although I doubt the MTA would consider doing anything which might actually benefit city residents. Meanwhile, Hudson Line trains can go over the bridge at Spuyvil and down the west side (is this line electrified?) to Penn. They might even add a stop on the Yupper West Side.
All that would mean fewer trains using the Park Avenue Tunnel to GCT. Which would mean fewer additional stops on Park Avenue need not reduce the number of Hudson, Harlem, and New Haven Division trains. Between 3-4 New Haven Line stations in the Bronx (Coop City, City Island, Morris Park, Parkchester), a new station at Yankee Stadium, and 4-5 Park Avenue stations, the city might finally get fair value out of all the money sucked out of it by the commuter railroad.
However, such a plan would require making a large number of decisions as a coordinated whole, something which has been politically illegal for the past 30 years. And it would mean spending money in the city (the governor, suburbanites, and upstaters opposed) on something other than non-profit health care and social service organizations (city Democrats opposed).
Why don't you write to the MTA and push your idea? They hear from me too much already.
Just what I was planning to do after reading the posts today!
In fact it is not electrified but as with any other line this could be done. Since Metro North, LIRR are related organs you would think something could be done. HOWEVER, NYC/NH route cars are under running not overrunning third rail such that although the M-x bodies may look similar the pickups are different, and perhaps the voltages are no longer identical. While I certainly favor more and better services there are some genuine technical rather than political hurdles here. As to Hell Gate,that also is a compatability problem as ConnDot cars likewise are set up to NYC specs not PRR-LIRR. You know this is one of those entertaining Mac-Clone or catholic-protestant, or other split-outs. Thank Whomever all of our 'standard light bulbs' thread into a national standard socket!
Hell Gate should not be a problem, since the New Haven trains could just use their pantagraphs (is that the right spelling) all the way to Penn, like the Amtrack trains, rather than their under-running 3rd rails. It is a bummer about the West Side line, however. How did they get around the law that banned steam trains in the 1890s, the one which forced them to electrify the rails to GCT?
But the other word is spelt AMTRAK and not AMTRACK.
Pantograph. So yes Conn Dot cars could be run to Penn. I forgot about the pans--but I bet the existing third rail shoes would foul. As to the electrification deal I am unclear on the histrory. Certainly once diesels came in... The west side NYC kine of course had local passenger service last century--see very old Official Guides for schedules. As to the value of New Haven line service to Penn, I don't khow, but I am reminded that pre AMTRAK NH long distance trains ran from both Penn and GCT--in fact greater frequency from GCT. As well there must have been provision for the "vacuum cleaners"--the boxy GE double ended passenger motors, to run to either terminal in New York. As long as one is mentioning the Hell Gate route we should note again that the southerly branch which can be seen adjacent the Sea Beach line as it emerges from the 4th Ave tunnel is an underused asset. This row had some service in the 20's and taps a number of actual or potential trip generatrors as it winds from the waterfront to the bridge. As a side comment--nearly the entire Orange--Midway line in CHGO was built on surplus mainline row segments strung together to make the route.
"Third rail shoes are not compatible".
Making an adjustible or retractable third rail pick up does not sound like an insurmountable problem for a mechanical engineer. In other areas I do agree that the various agencies of the MTA should try for standardization
Here's an idea, though it may be far-fetched: If the Second Avenue subway is to be diverted west along 125th Street to connect with the Lexington Avenue line, why stop there? Send it all the way
west across 125th Street, setting up free transfers to the Lenox Avenue line (2,3), the 8th Avenue line(A,B,C,D) and perhaps even as far as Broadway (1,9). This would cause a major disruption during its construction, but in the long run, may benefit the commercial district along the street, not to mention the surrounding neighborhood.
So **how much** of the total length of the planned route is actually constructed? People talk about "bits and pieces" and "the three completed portions" but how much tunnel construction is done and how much more would need to be done to finish the line?
Three sections have been completed. Two are in East Harlem and total about a half-mile. The third section is near the Manhattan Bridge and is about 800 feet long. There also was a fourth section built in the East Village, about a third of a mile long, but it has since been filled in.
My understanding is the built sections were constructed in deep tunnels in solid rock. Deep tunnels would be even cheaper to build today, because of the "mole" machine they're using on the Third Water tunnel. But for stations and ventilation you have to cut your way up to the surface, past water, sewer, gas, electric, phone, cable, and steam and threatening building foundations to get to the street. None of that stuff was built to my knowlege.
That's why I think the TA would be better off building the subway stationless to the Bronx. Get the Bronx residents off the Lex Local, which would get a turnaround at 125th, and the crowding would go down. Bronx residents would have a faster trip.
There is a bellmouth in the 63rd St. tunnel east of Lexington Ave. which would allow northbound trains from 2nd Ave. to turn east to the tunnel, and Manhattan-bound trains from 63rd to turn south onto 2nd Ave.
Your other observations are absolutely correct; in fact, the tracks to connect the Broadway line to 2nd Ave. are already in place. The Lexington Ave. station has an additional track, on each level, on the other side of the wall which runs down the length of each platform.
About a year ago MTA made public the following:
Connect the now unused BMT express tracks along Broadway with the Second Ave. subway using the 63d Street connector. Build a two track subway along 2nd Ave. from 63 St. to 125th St. At 125th it would turn west and terminate adjacent to the existing Lexington Ave./ 125th Street IRT station, where free transfers would be available.
Idea would be for Bronx customers to have ability to transfer to another line, and give East Siders an alternative to the packed #6 line.
Don't forget to leave the door open for an eventual
extension of this line further downtown! The Second
Avenue line as originally envisioned will be absolute
murder when it comes to its construction/impact on
traffic in midtown. Ideally, it would be ideal to have
this line extend downtown as far as Water and
Whitehall Streets, as originally intended BUT
half a loaf will have to suffice, I guess. Call it
the "Y" train? "Y" not !!!
The plan is not completely abandoned. If you call the MTA they'll send you a brochure detailing plans to run a second avenue line between the new 63rd street station to 125th street with 4 stops in between.
We need to lobby for a Second Avenue line continuing downtown and then into Alphabet City, through the South Street Seaport, across the water to Governor's Island, over to Red Hook and terminating at Smith Street, F and G station.
The delays you are experiencing are also exacerbated by the re-routing of the #2 line through the Lexington Avenue Express because of track work & reconstructive surgery at 110t along the Lenox portion of the 2 line. So even the slightest delay causes major backups.
As for 2nd Ave, don't count on it in your lifetime unless you plan to live to 200. Yes, it's still considered an "active" project but so is the original charter of the Port Authority of NY & NJ - a trans-Hudson freight tunnel .....
--Mark
Does anyone have an idea how long it takes to get from Grand Central out to Buhre Avenue in the Bronx taking the 6 train? (at least 20 stops!)
If you believe the schedules, 40 to 45 minutes
Ive been hearing about these r143s that will be delivered in 1999 but ive never seen them
does any one have a pic of one of them????
It may cost the agency 200 million but their revenues will still be up thanks to the increased ridership.
Marty,
What is sad is that most of these B-I-G decisions R made by folk that commute to work in Limos or fly in on choppers.
Will your average joe buy the "Fun-Pass" like a pacakage of cookies or stop by the TA booth every day for a new card ?
If eye still worked in NYC eye might buy a couple for those days I was going to make a couple of extra trips, i.e. NY PC Expo, & use my "value" card for my regular 2 trip per day day.
Why didn't they think of a 2 or 3 day card ? If you're on vacation your probally not going do it in one day, AND if you're comming in for a Broadway show (with family) U would buy TWO "value" card for $6, i.e. four folks two rides each incl Transfers.
Mr t__:^)
You know "T", I feel the same. Maybe me, and 100 other transit nuts may make a weekly trip to ride the system all day (and in my case it would mean forking over an additional $19 or more to the other pocket of MTA on Metro-North) for $4, but I can't see thousands of City workers going out to do the town every night because they have a subway pass to get home.
The passes make the suystem more effective. If the pass is priced = to or above two rides, (3-4 fares is ideal) it just might make using transit more convienent and peoplew would use it mor often. Rides taken after AM and PM peak just take up unused cappacity. It costs about the same to run an empty vehicle as a full one.
latest word regarding the daily unlimited $4 metrocard, initially only weekly($17) and monthly($63) monthly plus($120) will be offered at NYCTA Stations first week of July. Daily will be offered initally off site. All I repeat all unlimited passes have a Pass Back Feature which is not a glitch in software, the unlimited pass isn't intended for group use but can be given to a friend or family member.
It was reported recently(Tuesday, I think), that the newly passed transportation bill had provided funds for, among other things, a "rail tunnel for Alfonse D'Amato". I cannot find any additional info about this. Does anyone know which tunnel is being referred to? The fabled Trans-hudson, or the GCT connector, or what?
I think it's the Trans-Husdon freight tunnel, so that freight bound for NYC by rail doesn't have to travel up to Selkirk, NY to cross the Hudson river. 2% of NYC's freight arrives by rail, the rest by truck, causing NYC (and Long Island) prices to be higher because of higher shipping costs.
--Mark
The bill does not provide for a rail tunnel. It provides for a study of a rail tunnel. The congress gets credit with pro-tunnel interests, but to build it I'm afraid we'll have to eliminate the subway and bus to come up with the money.
D'Amato's bill also pays for $300 million toward the $2 billion connection to Grand Central. As long as the MTA does not make any subway improvements in the next seven years, it can fund the rest.
But its federal money. So its free. The city isn't losing anything. Is it?
Half of the congressional pork barrel items in New York were studies.
I am interested in finding out why an overhead third rail is called a "stinger". Any additional technical info would be very helpful.
In Chicago the "stinger" is the device used to connect a pair of cars that get "stranded" in a third rail gap. These devices are two long insulated poles with conductive ends that have flexibility to contact the third rail with one and the third rail shoe of the stranded car with the other. They are usually seen at locations were they are needed i.e. junctions and yards. The poles are marked, what else, "stinger".
This is what "stinger" means in Chicago. Using the imagination though, I’d say "stinger" to label the third rail doesn’t take too much thought. Have you ever been "stung" by a electrified barbed wire?
I have seen overhead third rail mentioned in old electric railway engineering books. How common were they and are any still in existance? I have seen is wire and over and under running third rail in practice but never overhead rail.
The Steinway tunnels, where the 7 runs today, had an overhead third rail when streetcars used them.
Speaking of stingers, I once witnessed, at the Shoreline Museum, the use of a long wooden pole with a length of heavy-duty cable attached to a hook on one of the ends. It was used to move R-9 #1689 from a siding which had no overhead wire. UL disapproved, I was told. Guess who got to put the hook on the overhead wire? Right. I followed along, dragging the hook over the wire as the car inched its way along. Talk about touching something with a 10-foot pole.
Steve:
I've been following the "Stinger" posts with interest. It is my understanding that the 10 foot pole attached to the power source was the stinger, not necessarily the overhead rail or cable.
I think it was a common practice on many freight handling trolley systems to leave infrequently used short sidings unwired. When they had to be serviced, it was through the use of "The Stinger", just as you described as being done at Shore Line. I would suspect OSHA would more than frown upon such practices, these days.
There is an interesting scene in an LA Trolley video, where at termination of service, temporary yard tracks were placed at one of the yards, and the PCCs are packed onto them through the use of a stinger with a long cable from established overhead.
By the way, the weather is a bit unsettled here in the east, and I'm debating the 160 mile trip to New Haven for Photographers Day at Shore Line, tomorrow. They have announced a rain date. Oh to be young again and to not let the rain worry you.
So when's the raindate for Photographers Day at ShoreLine?
--Mark
Rain Date is June 20
AT BSM we have a stinger that was inherited from Baltimore Transit. It is 2 fifteen foot poles, one with a hook to place on the trolley wire, and one with a "shepard's crook" hook for the trolley wheel/shoe. Connecting these is about 20 feet of 200 MCM cable. Ours has a fat splice about 2/3 along where, many years ago, our late Superintendant Transportation pinched it between a streetcar and the truck trailer that car had just been unloaded from. The truck lit up "TILT" before every bulb popped! Since then, everybody that uses the stinger is tought how to correctly use it. As all of us who work with it know, 600 volts is nothing to fool around with!!
At the Seashore Trolley Museum, we call it a "bug." I haven't had the opportunity to see it yet, but I have heard stories.
As an old hand at using the device it is an interesting operation. My most intersting use of the bug (stinger) was to extract a car from the rear of "Fairview Carbarn" (300' long and unpowered). To do this we used two other cars and two long bugs. The first car ran in as far as it could on the first bug, then the bug was taken down and we ran a second car in until its pole was about to run out of wire. The bug was hooked to the inner pole of the second car and the first was run in a little further. Now a second bug was hung between the first car and the one we wanted to move, and the accordion was compressed to get the car as far up in the barn as possible. Many pairs of hands and eyes required to make the move, but no 4' 8.5" pieces of wire or thundering reports created!
In the NYC Transit system the term 'stingers' refers to the 600 volt cables and rigid contacts used in the shops to apply power to the contact shoes when it is necessary to move cars in and out under their own power...
If memory serves, there are locations in the GCT complex where auxilliary overhead feeds were provided because the third rail could not be located within the complex trackwork--double slip switches f'r instance.
[ The prices for the monthly, weekly and daily passes were "set by the governor in a decision process that nobody can discern," the official said. "It just happened." ]
Can you say "5 cent fare"? :)
[ But advocates for riders said they had assumed that a family from, say, Queens, would not have to make a side trip to the Waldorf-Astoria before beginning a day of sightseeing. ]
Doesn't Chicago's CTA have a discount pass that no one seems able to get because, at the time, booth agents (there are no booth agents now) never had them?
--Mark
Hey Mark be nice. I remember the 5 cent fare (discounted to 3 cents because I was a Ute-note: that's not the same as a Ute from Utah)
How much do you want to bet that Grand Central, Penn Station, and other MetroNorth and LIRR stations qualify as "tourist areas."
Seriously, the whole thing is a misfire if it encourages more people to ride on peak, without providing special benefits to those who ride off peak.
Man oh man, you got that right.
The whole point of the single subway system + MABSTOA etc is one city one fare. In fact the recent abolition of the two fare system between bus and suib is great. AND like Pavlov's dogs, coincident with a much better general economy, they came back to transit in droves. Yes there are other demographic reasons, younger, fewer cars owned, more recent immigrants,--but the point is here we have the system flourishing--no summer cut back. The best ways to abort this are either shafting people because of their bosses' scheduling policies or exit swipe distance pricing. DON'T DO IT!.
As to one day tickets consider this -- friend from out of town arrives to spend day with you. The several of you run all over on one day passes using transit for exactly its designed purpose--withoutr regard to price! The larger the usage the lower the head cost.
personally a 12 rides for the price of 10 would have gone over better better than unlimited passes. Supposedly the $4 daily passes will be sold through hotels and some off site locations initially. From what i've been told daily will be eventually sold in station booths. A daily pass for $4 purchased daily for 5 days comes out to $20. for the daily commuter the$63 seems about right. Off peak discounts to relieve rush hour crowding would have been a much bigger crowd pleaser, but lets not count it out. lets face it metrocard is still in its infancy and more avenues to attract more customers is making number crunchers quake with possibilities. Overall the alledged surplus of money should have gone to give us more service subways and bus.
The last time I was in Toronto I had to work the first day. Since I started early and had several places to be, and the day pass did not begin till after 9:00 AM I used my car. I got in a terrible traffic jam on queen street going back to my hotel. The next day I took off and used the subway and streetcars all day to go where I needed to.
Too bad there was the disinsentive for me to use transit when I was visiting and working but needed to be out at AM peak.
A day pass should be available for everyone not just tourists and not just off peak. If it's priced at three one way fares you collect the peak fares and one off peak ride. Any other rides just fill excess cappacity and make using the system more attractive and more effective.
If weekly and monthly passes are priced right the daily pass for ocasional rides should not cut into the sales of the longer term passes and will encourage infrequent riders to ride more.
I distinctly remember someone here mentioning that the plan/proposal for the daily unlimited-use Metrocards was to expire them at midnight on the date of purchase. Thus you wouldn't have the "8:30AM today, 8:15AM tomorrow" problem mentioned on the article.
Kevin, Upon reading the handout for bus drivers more carefully:
For all 3 cards "Good until MIDNIGHT (on the day)(7 days from the day)(30 days from the day) you first use the card not from the day it was purchased"
Mr t__:^)
As something of night crawler with somewhat flexible work hours, I'll take advantage of the fact that my evening doesn't always end at midnight, even on nights before work.
I might start a new daily card to come home from a night out in NYC at 12:30 a.m., then use it again to go back to work in the morning (OK, the LATE morning), then maybe to go out in NYC yet again at, say, 7 p.m. that night, maybe another ride during the evening, then, if I go home before midnight (and fatigue may demand it), I'll have gotten four or five rides for the price of two and two-thirds.
Same with the weekly card. If I have a busy weekend planned in NYC, I'll start a new card on my way home from a Friday night out in NYC at 12:30 a.m. Saturday, then use it all weekend, and commute all the next week. When I'm not planning a NYC Transit-filled weekend, I'll just use the value-based card to commute Monday through Friday as usual.
That is, if I don't die of exhaustion first!
does anyone know how to get to manhattan from JKF on the subway coming in on a friday about 8pm? where do you pick up the subway from the airport?
help!!!
thanks
Rae,
Manhattan's a big place. Since you didn't indicate where in Manhattan you want to go, I can't be too precise. The best way to Manhattan via public transportation (not considering Carey buslines) would be to take the Q10 bus to Union Turnpike in Kew Gardens. (The Q10 runs about every 10-15 minutes) From Union Turnpike you can take the E or F train straight into Manhattan.
IMHO, since you will be traveling at night, I believe this is better than taking the bus to either Jamaica-Sutphin Blvd or to the A train at Howard Beach/JFK station.
i'll be going to the west village around 6th and 8th from JFK.
I would take the Q10 (Green Bus line) to Union Turnpike/Kew Gardens subway station and take the E train to either 14th Street or to West 4th Street in the Village. Pick up a metrocard at the airport newsstand (I think they have them) and the whole trip with cost $1.50 (beats a cab any day). The metrocard will allow a free transfer from the bus to the subway. Some people may suggest taking the A train since you are going downtown, but I don't recommend that way. It's a long ride and IMHO, the neighborhoods are less nice. Good luck & enjoy your stay.
If your destination is Lower Manhattan (Wall St/Financial District) or along the west side:
Take free Port Authority bus at airport marked Long Term Parking. It also stops at Howard Beach subway station. There, take the A train (1st Manhattan stop is Fulton St/Broadway/Nassau - about 45 minutes from JFK). A train continues up the entire length of Manhattan's west side, following the 8th Ave. route, all the way to 207th Street..
If your destination is in Midtown Manhattan or the east side:
Take Q10 Green Line Bus at airport to Union Turnpike/Kew Gardens Subway Station. Make sure you have Metrocard prior to boarding - it will cover the bus fare and a free transfer to the subway at Kew Gardens. From there, take E or F train to Manhattan - both stop at 53d Street/Lexington Ave., 53d St/5th Ave., before divering along different routes southward (F along 6th Ave, E along 8th Ave.). At 53d and Lexington you can transfer to the #6 train uptown or downtown to reach any stop in Manhattan along the Lexington Ave. Line (east side IRT).
Better still, E mail me (ajsparb@aol.com). Tell me the exact location you want to reach in Manhattan, and I'll E mail you back with specific directions. I'll get back to you on Thursday night 6/11.
Two questions:
1. Is there anywhere in the airport that someone can buy a metrocard, maybe a newsstand or something ?
2. How is the A train after dark ?
The A runs express in Brooklyn weeknights until 9 PM, although there was a posting not too long ago that it now runs, or will run, express until 10 PM due to increased ridership. It does run through Bedford-Stuyvesant and East New York, two areas which may not be the most desireable places to be in after dark. This doesn't mean you'll get mugged; you just want to be aware of your surroundings, especially if the A is running local.
I can't answer your first question, although I'm sure Metrocards are sold in the terminal buildings.
You should be able to buy a MetroCard at the subway stn at Howard Beach. If U take the Green Bus Lines Q10 pay cash & ask for a "Transfer" u'll get a paper/magnetic, BUT it's NG to a subway. So if you can't find a MetroCard sales outlet in JFK it'll be 3.00 via the bus. Another example of the TA discouraging improper behavor, i.e. paying in cash.
Enjoy your say in NYC !
Mr t__:^)
As a Hanna-Barbara cartoon character once said, "It's a great act, but it's still got a few bugs in it." Does anyone remember Magilla Gorilla?
I am recompiling and updating my list of cars
lost in revenue service, and I seem to remember
that there was an incident between an "A" train
(slant R40), and a non-revenue R38 near the
Dyckman Street station sometime back in the 80s.
I noted the R38's unit number (4063), and have
seen it repaired and in service many times since,
but not that of the R40. It appeared to be very
heavily damaged.
Any information regarding the unit number, and
if possible, the date of this event would be greatly
appreciated.
Thanks,
Wayne
I don't have the answer. I remember an A train incident, but I think that was a more recent derailment.
But your post made me think of something that happened to me at the #1 Dykman Station in the early 1980s. At that time, the trains were not air conditioned. In the summer, the windows were open and the noise was brutal (how soon we forget) until you got outside so it wouldn't bounce off the walls. I was sitting in a seat in front of an open window. As the train was ready to leave, a (shall we say) high spirited youth reached in and smacked me in the face! When I saw the title, I figured the same punk got you.
I think about that when I see a conductor rolling up the platform with his head out the window. Those conductors are highly exposed.
Larry,
No, I've never experienced anyone reaching
in or out of a train to cuff me. Some misguided
youth tried to make a go for my Targus bag
last Oct 31 at 59th St Lex (lower level), but
I defeated his attempt to take it from me.
Yes, that was July 3, 1997 near 135th Street,
and 5282 was lost. Any word on the other
three cars in the bunch? ('83, '85 and '84) -
have they found a new mate?
You're right. The conductors are highly exposed thru the open window. Have there been reported incidents of Conductors getting hurt as the train enters and leaves the station because of this?
This is the most dangerous part of the Conductor job: while he/she is observing the platform to insure nobody is being dragged, he/she is a sitting duck for an injury. That is the primary reason they wear safety glasses. But they may get their cap knocked off (as what happened to me when I was a conductor) by somebody angry they missed the train, they get spat at, get any kind of liquid imaginable (including urine) tossed at them. Many conductors get injured yearly protecting the public.
I have heard that observation of the side doors and platforms is the #1 cause of injuries to Conductors.
The rule states: Observe for clearence along both zones during train's departure, for three car lenghts of travel or immediately before the station's end, whichever occurs first, prepared to stop the train via conductors emergency brake valve upon noticing anyone or anything affixed to the side of the train.......
I feel this rule is more to protect people from there own stupidity. On two occasions this year I have had to activate the conductor emergency brake valve while leaving a station. Both occasions were a result of prople trying to leave the train between car while the train was in motion. In the first situation the man was afraid to let go of the panagraph gates and was being dragged along the platform with with his feet flailing behind him. The second case the womans clothing became entageled in the panagraph gates and broke lose as a result of the hard stop. I would hate to think of what would have happened to them if they were not observed.
Yes we do protect the public, which is one reason I am not worried about OPTO.
I heard that the TA was or still is considering eliminating that part of rule. Over 90% of the stations are straight giving the conductor (or Train Operator) clear line of sight before the train moves. Almost all of the curved stations have video for the conductor to observe the part of the train he can not see directly. Soon all curved stations will have video. This would greatly reduce injury to Conductors and also assist with the TA's push for OPTO. I am against this idea as it is my job to protect the public, even if it is at times against them selves. With any job were you protect the public, sometimes there is risk involved. Any time you stick your head out of a moving train there is definetly risk involved.;-}
This last paragraph is pure rumor and nothing offical has been released.
FYI - those of you who travel to DC, the Metro
will be opening its Glenmont terminus on the
Red Line on July 25, 1998, according to their
sources. This is to be an underground station
about 50 feet down, which is not as deep as
Wheaton or Forest Glen (halfway to China).
Local geography puts it on GA Avenue, just
above Layhill Road, with parking lot and
layup yard to go with the new station.
If anybody out there has info on how the
construction project to link the two Green Lines
is doing, I'd appreciate a holler. Someone said
1999, but I'm not really sure.
Thanx - Wayne.
Can anyone tell me if the LIRR's Nostrand Ave. station on Atlantic
Ave. still has any of its original ornamental architecture, such as
platform/stairway railings, etc.? I'm hoping to get some photos of
the elevated portion of the LIRR along Atlantic Ave. in Brooklyn,
and I'm hoping that the stations, as well as the elevated structure,
still has much of its original aspects. Can anyone tell me if there
are any areas along the Atlantic Ave. elevated structure that are
worth photographing? Thanks.
I don't believe that it does. I haven't ridden the line frequently in about 7 or 8 years, but I recall the station having LIRR standard-issue aluminum railings. The stairways that I recall were also aluminum with the ugly green plastic covering.
Sorry to disappoint. I hope I'm remembering incorrectly.
Station was rebuilt in the mid 1970's and no longer has any of the old ornamental features. Best way to photograph the line is to ride the front end of any train (either direction is OK) and photograph the structure from the train. On a westbound (towards Flatbush) train the portal at Bedford Ave. is a good site Make sure you ride EB in the afternoon or westbound in the morning to avoid the sun in your face.
A few months ago I got off the train there. Unless you want to take pictures of trains passing by, I wouldn't recommend it.The place looks plain. Any fancy stuff that might be on it is long gone.On the roadway going eastbound there are no handrails along side the track. If you've ever been in the area, the neighborhood isn't too hot either. You'll probably be able to take some good shots. But you won't get any fancy stuff in it.
the $120 unlimited monthly plus card sounds expensive but hey if you ride to and from work at $3 a pop $6 a day $30 weekly comes to $120 FOR THE MONTH but your are give unlimited rides on express bus and connection to subways and to local buses
Hey Albanian
The July issue of Trains has an article about Wisconsin Central's overseas English Welsh & Scottish Railway. There is a photo of one of their 250 new 4000hp SD70 engines from GM London, Ontario being loaded at the Port of Albany on March 30.
Would you have any info on further loadings?
Are the Coney Island or other rail yards (180th underground? :) )
accessable by any of us ordinary people? I was thinking about
driving or riding out this weekend. Anyone have any favorite places
(apart from the transit museaum...been there, drooled over that)
to see on the NYC subway road?
Lee, Hopfully a BIGGER subway buff than me w/provide better info, but I can point to a couple:
IND local yard off Contintental Ave = Come down the Whitestone Exp & you pass right by just before joining the Van Wyke
AmTrack= Get on Queens Blvd you'll pass over their big PAX yard just before U get on the Queensboro bridge, a longer view is affored on the LIRR as you pass by, it'll also show U a couple of access roads.
BMT = Take the Belt Pwy toward NYC you'll pass right over a big yard, i've never tryed to get closer. If it's a nice day/eve the rest of the ride on the belt is a tourest delight. First you'll pass Coney Isl (you'll see the Parachute ride) then the Verrazano bridge comes into view, U may see some big ship movements, now watch for the Statue of Liberty, and as U turn lwr NYC says hello, duck under the Brookly & Mahattan bridges, and now Belt has just become the Brooklyn-Queens Exp
Comming South on the BQE I like to take the Williamsburg bridge to NYC, but you would have to make a U-turn here to do that & visit Cannal St, the "Village" and the rest of lwr NYC.
I love to ride trains but also go out of my way to take advantage of all the other great stuff in NYC, e.g. any of U ever go to a Columbia Univ footbal game at 207th St, U can get there by the 1/9 ... my son once slept overnight on the Obversation deck of the Empire State Bldg, he was a Boy Scout.
Mr t__:^)
You can get a pretty good view of the Coney Island Yard by taking the N train to or from Stilwell Avenue. The train passes right through the yard, quite close to the main repair shop.
You can also get a birds-eye view of the Corona Yard from the ramps
leading to the Tennis Complex. Best time to go is when the U.S.Tennis open is going on (late August). Take #7 train to Willets Point Boulevard, get off doors on the right side, then walk down the ramp - it passes right next to the Corona Yard. I am NOT SURE if these ramps are open at other times of the year - I guess one way to find out is to ride out to Willets Point and see.
Yup, the ramps at Corona are open year round, even in the dead of winter (trust me.)
-Dave
Also on the rail yards, if you take the #4 train to Bedford Park Blvd and then walk over to the back end of the southbound track you get a great view of the D and and B train yard.
Charlie Muller.
I've read your question and the responses. Most yards are outdoors and obviously close to subway routes. Some additional suggestions:
Take the #/1/9 train uptown. Between 137th and 145th Streets there is an unusual underground yard. Ride the front car. After Dyckman Street, when the train comes outdoors, look right and you'll see the 207th Street yard and shops. Just before the 242d Street terminal, there is a small above ground yard to the left (west).
Take F train towards Coney Island. After Avenue X you will pass the Coney Island Yard and Shops complex on your right.
The East New York complex, where the J and L lines cross, has a small yard on the north side, but is also interesting because it is the most complex elevated train interchange remaining in New York City.
There's also a pretty good view of the Fresh Pond Yard from any
"M" train going north out of Fresh Pond Road. Also a yard at
180th Street in the Bronx (2,5), and further up, between Nereid
Avenue and 241st Street, but this yard's a block or two east of the
train line.
I was on the F train today going into Queens and noticed a lot of construction between Queens Plaza & 74 Street Roosevelt Avenue Jackson Heights. The tunnel's roof is off & you can see the light from above. What are they doing ?
There working on the 63rd St/Queens Blvd Connection between Queens Plaza & 36th St Station. This connection will open in the year 2001 & when it opens, it will finally relieve the overcrowing on the E & F trains & it can reroute these trains through the 63rd St tunnel in case of emergency conditions in the 53rd St tunnel
I understand that there will be one ("Q") and possibly two ("V") services that will take advantage of this new connection. The reason that it's such a mess is that they have to turn a five-track subway line into a six-track one, literally out of the earth itself. That's the new local track you see sprouting out of the wall just south of 36th Street. I think the current local track will become the express track and the current express track will then become the connector. On the northbound side, the local track and express track stay as they are, and the layup track has become the connector. In addition to all this concrete and steel mayhem, there's switch work to do, third rails to be built, signals to install, the whole nine yards. Let's hope someone offers them an incentive to finish it up before the millenium.
WayneÑ
You wrote:
>>That's the new local track you see sprouting out of the wall just south of 36th Street. I think the current local track will become the express track
and the current express track will then become the connector. On the northbound side, the local
track and express track stay as they are, and the layup track has become the connector.
Actually, what happens on the Manhattan-bound side is that the current LOCAL track will become the connector while the express track will remain just that.
On the Parsons Blvd/179th Street-bound side, the layup track became the express track, the express track became the connector, and the local track stays where it is.
On both sides, the connector is between the local and express tracks.
Michael
Can anyone tell me with any degree of certainty how much this connection will cost? Can anyone tell me how much Chrystie St cost? I haven't had a good answer yet.
I stand corrected! This was based on my own observation (I had seen
an earthmover in the layup track, so I thought it was digging the
connector there). Sorry for any misinformation I may have spread.
as one approaches Manhattan on the F, it looks like part of the construction involves the building of a new station. Does anyone know what the name of this new station will be (if it is actually a new station being built?)
There is **no** new station. What you are seeing is the widening of the tunnel to add another track.
Howdy folks,
Got back from a day in Baltimore yesterday with my son on a field trip. I didn't get to ride either the Light Rail or the subway but saw several LRV's and went inside the Charles Center station but not on a train.
My son was inpressed with how clean and modern it is compared to Philly's. He liked the elevator to the mezzanine. It was nice.
And on to a topic that I'm not sure whether or not was discussed at length here, the movie "Money Train". I saw it for the first time yesterday and picked up a few errors(to put it mildly).
The scene when the crazy pyromaniac was hit by a train. He was in the 5th Ave, station on the N/R(I think) but a #5 train was rushing through the tunnel and an 'N' train hit the man. Strange, no?
Several scenes when Wesley Snipes was sandwiched between a passing train and the wall, another train, etc. Wouldn't he have been clipped by the 3rd rail shoes?
Officer Santiago rushing to Ft.Hamilton Station and ending up at Prospect Park/15th?
It was okay, but laden with mistakes any person remotely familiar with the NYC subway would have picked up.
P.S.-Did anyone notice the platform on the wall between stations when the Money Train was stolen? I've never seen that before on the 'A'.
BTW, the train was on the 'A' line and the next stop was Grand St.???
Possible, but not your usual routing.
Hey glad you liked our system, to new for me. The money train was flimed in a fake subway tunnel over a 1/4 mile long built in the desert out west. looked good though.
One piece of trivia for you about the Charles Center Station---If you noticed, the station has 3 levels with the trains being on the lowest level. When the station (and the system) was being designed, there was to be a North/South Line intersecting this station near the eastern end of the station---this line would have run through the middle (2nd) level. Obviously, this line was never built and probably never will, what with the Central Light Rail Line pretty much taking the place of what would have been the North/ South Lines. In fact, when the system was designed in the late 60's-early 70's, there were to be 6 lines all radiating out from the Charles Center station---If you would like more details on what and where they would've been, feel free to e-mail me.
Dear Mark,
I am a town planning student from Sydney, and I am interested in North American public transport - despite the general lack of it compares to Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane!! I would much appreciate you telling me if you know how the subway extension to John Hopkins is going. Is it being used that much?
Jason
The Johns Hopkins Extension of the Baltimore Metro (subway) was opened as scheduled and has been carrying increasing numbers of passengers to both of the two new stations, Shot Tower and Johns Hopkins Hospital. The Hopkins station has a direct entrance to the Hospital and is used by many JHMS employees. Shot Tower is right near Baltimore's fastest growing tourist area, the Inner Harbor East.
Long range plans are either to extend the subway north to Broadway and North Avenues, where a transfer to a light rail line to White Marsh and many NE bus lines would be built, or a White Marsh - Johns Hopkins Light Rail line.
Dan,
Where did you get the info. regarding an extension beyond Hopkins? Please e-mail me.
Mark
Just thought I would pass this information on to any one who might be interested in purchasing the book Evolution Of NYC Subway. I just purchased the book by MA BELL from the New York Transit Museum. I didn't realize you could do this, but it is a nice convience
I spoke with my cousing in South Jersey today. She tells me that PATCo is without a contract and they too may walk out.
Does anyone know anything about PATCO's contract situation?
I haven't heard a word about it. Of course, with all the media attention on the SEPTA situation (and even that isn't the main story lately, except for 234's latest dopey act and the jaw-boning of politicians who want it settled), there's probably little time or space for it.
The toll collectors on the Ben Franklin Bridge staged a walkout about a month ago (they work for the Port Authority, PATCO's parent). About a dozen of them shut down traffic on the bridge. There was a story in today's paper that they were all fired. This is the only labor- related story I've heard on the Port Authority lately. I'll keep my eyes and ears open, though.
A PATCO strike would hurt big-time, especially with the added traffic in Center City Phila on top of that generated by the SEPTA strike. While it isn't gridlock yet, it's not great, and parking is the biggest headache - lots are filling up early every day. Displaced PATCO riders would be hard-pressed to find parking in Center City. Also, to a much more minor extent, PATCO does offer a transit alternative in Center City, although its scope is quite limited. At 75 cents (less than half SEPTA's $1.60) it is always a bargain for those travelling within the city.
FolksÑ
I've not heard anything about a possible PATCO strike.
I'll double check with a broadcast colleague of mine who knows the people there very well, or will call the flack myself in the next day or two.
Michael
I am an English student currently researching the New York Subway system, and as someone who has never even been to New York I am in need of some assistance. Would anyone who has a good knowledge of the subway system, its history and perhaps some interesting stories to tell please contact me at D.Sloan@btinternet.com.
Thank you for your help
Kate Sloan
Kate
If you search the rest of this site and related links you will likely find the information you are looking for. You will have to look through it and read it though before you write your paper thats why they call it research.
Thank your for your kind help. I'll bear it in mind next time (!). However because it's for British television, and I have never even been to the US, let alone been on the subway, I thought it might be nice to talk to someone who had.
That's all. Sarcasm - it isn't big and it isn't clever.
Sorry if I came across as sarcastic. Good luck with your project.
As Joe M so elegantly put it, you should find a great deal of information on this site. There are books available on the subject but my assumption is that they are mostly likely not readily available in Britain. Check this site for a bibliography. If there are any questions, please feel free to ask. Most Americans are more than willing to help. Good luck with your research.
George
You can't really know the subway until you've been on it. If we were to tell you the story of the NYC subway, you'd be there for a long, long,long,long,long,long long,long,long,long,long,long time. Get the picture. We'd all love to chat but we'd probably put you to sleep:)
Hi there folks!
This should be a very DIFFERENT post. I'm not asking for directions, or why CAR R29 is not running, I'm asking for your perceptions.
My name is Trystan Toole, I'm a composer and writer down here in here in New York. I'm getting ready to start a project that I hope will go somewhere: I think I have one producer SOLD on the idea. My project involves a musical that takes place on a subway during the different courses of the day. The subway basically represents the variety of people in New York or for even that matter, the world. There are separated things that are represented in the piece, and different stories. I'm interested in everyone's subway experiences, what you see, what happens during the different parts of the day, what your perceptions are, etc. I basically want my show to be about individuals and what they see through their own eyes. Give me a really great story, give me your everyday experiences. You know, it maybe New York's main form of transportation, but for me personally, I know that it's a lot more than that. If you get back to me will you please e-mail me at toole@msn.com? I don't want to keep on visited this forum everytime to find new messages, although if you're interested in what other people have written, you can just ask me.
Thanks for those of you who choose to write,
Trystan
It's a very interesting idea. Rosie Perez, the movie star, directed (and starred in? I'm not sure) a "docu-drama" type program on HBO called Subway Stories, an anthology of stories set on or revolving around the New York City subways. You may want to see this first, both to get an idea of what can be done, and what legally should not be done because Ms. Perez did it first (copyright and all that).
Are there any R-46 or 68 Lionel Toys Trains Availiable.
I would like an EL of 3 stations in my Living ROOM.
Please Respond if theses R46 Lionel Trains are around.
The "toy" trains that you speak of are actually not made yet! They are due out in June, 1998 (we hope) by Mikes Train House (MTH) of Columbia, MD, NOT LIONEL. They are forshortened models of the R-44/46 subway cars, being roughly only a scale 60' as opposed to the prototype 75' length. This was done, no doubt, to allow operation on the tight tinplate radius curves. The cars will be available in four car sets, with one car powered, the other dummies. They can be ordered with optional "Protosounds" that include squeeling brakes, station announcements etc. Check out MTH's home page at www.mth-railking for more info.
I HATE THOSES STUPID TONES (BEEP-BEEP-BEEP)ON THE R-110 CARS WHEN THE DOORS CLOSE. THEY MAKE MY EARS RING........
PLEASE BRING BACK THE TONES FROM THE R46,62,68 FOR THE NEW R142 IRT AND IND DIVISION CARS COMING SOON.
And would you like a double latte' too? make mine a mocha espresso...
Ah ha, well, actually, I'm kind of a Cafe Au Lait person myself . . . but what does it have to do with subway doors (what, indeed!) The ding-dong is okay, but I kind of like the LIRR (and MNRR)-style "telephone" ring better . . . . . . . I guess you better add a little whipped cream to that.
Here's a good one for you: Car 1996 (R62A, found on the #3 line) has
a door chime where the notes are reversed, so it goes "dong-ding" rather than "ding-dong". I asked my friend Pat (who works with door sensors and switches at CI shop) how this could be, and he said that something on the little chip in the chime was reversed when it was
manufactured. I've also noticed that some door chimes (mainly on the
R46's) are flat or sharp, so when they all ring together it produces
dissonance. By the way I hate that "buzz-buzz" too (the PATH trains seem to have something similar to this now), I wonder if it's some mandate from the Dept.of Transportation that requires this.
The Buzz-Buzz tones you hear are communication between the ytain operator and conductor. One long buzz means stop and for the conductor- open the doors. Two short tones mean close doors and go. These are universal railroad codes.
I am sure that Steve(trainmaster7)can give us all of the codes.
Here are a few rules of thumb when it comes to buzzer communication between train operator and conductor;
One long buzzer signal passed to the train operator means to stop or do not move the train.
One long buzzer signal passed to the conductor means do not open the doors, do not close the doors, or reopen the doors.
Two long buzzer signals to the train operator means to proceed. This is used at terminals, after any emergency brake application, and after the conductor has signaled the train operator to stop.
Two long buzzer signals to the conductor means to proceed with door operarions and pass indication, when all is clear.
Two short buzzer signals passed by either the train operator or the conductor is an acknowledgement of any message. NOTE: The conductor must never pass buzzer signals with the side doors open, unless the emrgency brake valve is open.
In short, one long buzzer signal means STOP whatever you are doing or are about to do. Two long buzzer signals means to PROCEED.
Some other buzzer signals are;
Three short to the train operator means the conductor needs a Road Car Inspector and that the train operator should signal with his horn at the first opportunity.
One long, one short, one long, one short, means the conductor needs Police assistance, The train operator should signal as soon as possible with his horn.
Five short buzzer signals by the train operator is for the conductor to come to the train operators cab.
I'll never forget the first time a train operator gave me five short buzzer signals, I did'nt know what the hell he was trying to tell me.
It was right in the middle of a lot of confusion to say the least, and this signal is not used very often. He keeped Passing the five untill I would acknowledge. I was not aknowledgeing something I did not understand. Meanwhile I was digging thru my bag for my rule book.(I was glad the TA makes us carry it.) When I finaly found the right page, there it was, go to the train operators cab. I aknowledged the buzzer as quickly as I could so he would STOP with that damned buzzer. But there was know way I was going to get up there, it was the middle of rush hour and the train was packed, and 14st was comeing up fast. Anyway, his radio battery was dead and he wanted mine. Made for a few good laughs latter.
WHAT SUBWAY LINE WAS THE ORIGINAL LINE BETWEEN THE NEW YORK YANKEES AND BROOKLYN DODGERS.
O.KAY ....... NOW........ WHAT LINE IS BETWEEN THE NEW YORK YANKEES AND NEW YORK METS?
YES.......THERE IS AN ANSWER TOO.............
When you say original,
You mean Brooklyn Dodger / New York Giants at the Polo Grounds.
That would have to be the "D" train.
I attended one of the games of the 1951 Yankee / Giant World series.
The "D" train again. Also, there was the (9th Ave El) Polo Grounds / Anderson Ave Shuttle if you went up 1 station from 161st St, then take the shuttle.
I did not ever got to a Yankee / Dodger World Series game,
However, that would be the "D" train again.
I have never seen the Mets and Yankees play, but that would be the Jerome/Lexington to Grand Central and change to the Flushing Line to Shea stadium or the reverse to Yankee Stadium.
Oh you poor kids
You never got to Ebbetts Field
Check your time lines. The D never went near Ebbetts Field.
In the 50s it ran over the Culver through Smith Ninth, not the Brighton
Question.. When was the Original Yankiee Dodger World Series?
I believe the first Yankee-Dodger World Series was 1941, when Mickey Owens dropped the third strike. Before that the Dodgers were a perenial loser -- that's why they were called the bums. There might have been a Yankee-Giant World Series, however.
You're probably right about the Yankee/ Giants-and it probably predated the IND.
I'm no expert on IRT routes - Was there a single Jerome-Lexington-Brooklyn(Flatbush) Route in 1941?
R-46 Jacks original question was NY Yankees/Brooklyn Dodgers
OK folks. I can answer the whole question:
NY Yankee-NY Giant World Series occurred in:
1921, 1922, 1923, 1936, 1937, 1951. 1921 was the first subway series.
1921 and 1922 were played in the Polo Grounds exclusively, as the Yankees were the Giants' tenants through the 1922 season. Yankee Stadium opened in 1923, so that and the 36, 37, and 51 clashes occurred in both parks.
Of course, the two ball parks are so close that a person can simply walk acorss the McCombs Dam Bridge to go from one to the other. If going by rapid transit, the 9th Avenue el served both parks until 1940, when it became the Polo Grounds Shuttle, which in turn lasted until 1958, or one year after the Giants left NY for San Francisco. The IND Concourse subway opened in 1933 (as the C train, not today's D train). So from then onward, it was possible to travel between the two parks on the subway.
The Woodlawn-Jerome was already in service when Yankee Stadium opened in 1923, but never seved the Polo Grounds.
In terms of the Dodgers & Yankess, the first World Series clash occurred in 1941, followed by 1947, 1949, 1952, 53, 55, and 56. The easiest route between Yankee Stadiium and Ebbets Field would be the IRT Lexington from 161st Street to Franklin Avenue/Eastern Parkway. An alternative would be the IRT to Union Sq-14th Street, then free transfer to Brightlon Line train to Prospect Park.
Mets vs. Yankees in a meaningful game has only occurred once - in 1997 - at Yankee Stadium as part of the interleague play experiment. Yours truly attended one of these games - it was an incredible experience. I waited 35 years to see the Mets play the Yankees in a real game. Of course, I took the D train to and from Yankee Stadium.
WHAT SUBWAY LINE WAS THE ORIGINAL LINE BETWEEN THE NEW YORK YANKEES AND BROOKLYN DODGERS.
O.KAY ....... NOW........ WHAT LINE IS BETWEEN THE NEW YORK YANKEES AND NEW YORK METS?
YES.......THERE IS AN ANSWER TOO.............
THE ANSWER IS NOT THE #4 OR D TO TRANSFER TO THE #7 LINE......
Hmmm ... I smell a trick question because you said "what subway line" for Yanks-Dodgers, but just "what line" for Yanks-Mets.
I might say it's a line of latitude, which is almost right but not quite.
So I'm going to guess that there's some little-known ferry that hits both Willets Point for Shea and the NY Waterways docking point for Yankee Stadium.
If this is correct, by the way, I'm going to have the entire crowd heckle you in absentia when I see Yanks vs. Mets at Shea June 26.
Actually, I might do that anyway on general principles :-)
NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
FROM THE HISTORY NET
June 19, 1846-
The New York Knickerbocker Club plays the New York Club in the first baseball game at the Elysian Field, Hoboken, New Jersey.
What Subway Line was this on
A SUBWAY LINE OR NJ PATH LINE?
It's probably the Bronx/Queens county line. Bah!
Come to think of it, although I don't have the right maps handy, is there an MTA or independent bus that runs between the two stadiums?
Don't know of any regular bus service between the two parks. Since the Yankees and Mets almost never play at home on the same dates, such a service would be meaningless.
The Q44 and QBX1 connect Flushing and The Bronx over the Whitestone Bridge, but neither one comes even close to Yankee Stadiium. If one took the Q44 from Flushing (near Shea) to West Farms Square, then took the BX36 180th Crosstown to the Concourse and Tremont Ave., and then the BX1 south on the Concourse, it would be possible to travel between the two parks by bus. Not recommended, however.
Better to take the #7 to Manhattan, then the #4 or D uptown to 161st Street.
your on the RIGHT TRACK BUT ..........NO!
Between the Yankees and Mets, the D train served both teams in 1962 and 1963 (Mets were at the Polo Grounds then, pre-Yankee Stadium).
Between Yankees and Dodgers, the IRT West Side (today's #1 and #2/3 lines) , from 168th Street/Broadway to Atlantic Avenue, Brooklyn, from 1908 to 1912 only. The Yankees played at Hilltop Park in Washington Heights until the end of the 1912 season (pre-Yankee Stadium) ; the Dodges played at Washington Park at the same time (pre Ebbets Field).
My first sentence should be corrected to read "...the D train seved both teams in 1962 and 1963 (Mets were at the Polo Grounds; pre- SHEA STADIUM)..
Great work Andy
I'm waiting the "Official" answer with much interest.
Being a Brooklyn Boy, it was against my religion to know about the Yankees, but......were they not the Hilltoppers when they played in Washington Heights.
Several months ago there was an article in the New York Times about the last surviving artifact of the Dodgers being removed from Brooklyn. It was about a surviving wall from Washington Park being demolished. I wonder if it made their archives. I'd like to reread it.
THE ANSWERS IS ON YOUR MAPS
I REALLY don't like the LLIR's bell as a warning the doors are closing. They remind me of school.
Speaking of dissonant tones, when I was last in Boston, I had many occassions to ride the subways, which are fairly frequent (and crowded) even on weekends and for the most part impressed me. Anyhow, there was one pattern of chimes that would sound when the doors were about to close, and another when the doors were closed and the train was ready to take off. But on a fair portion of the trains, the second signal was defective, and instead of crisp "DING"s, what came out was a sickly "Spoinnnnnng", like the bell was partially stuffed with paper or a spring breaking. It was such a funny sound that I laughed every time I heard it.
Anyone know what I'm talking about? Todd Glickman? Anyone else from the Hub?
No, never been to Bean Town (hope to some day), but I have been to DC
where the Breda cars that run on all five lines have a tinny
little chime that goes "peeng-pong" (the Rohr cars from
the original fleet have the proper and classic sound, same as
R44/46/62/68)
YEAH....I KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN..... WHATS FUNNY TO ME IS THE SEPTA'S ORANGE SUBWAY LINE IN PHILADELPHIA. THE DOORS GO (DING-DING). TO ME THATS NOT NORMAL...
Does anyone remember that the R44s when delivered actually had a slightly different sounding set of 2 tones? Vs. the R46s?
NOT REALLY......SOME R-44'S CHIMES WERE RESTORED WITH NEW ONES BECAUSE OF THE DISFUNCTIONAL OF OLD CHIMES(DING-DONG).
THERE THE SAME BUT THE (DING-DONGS) ARE IN A FAST PACE.
I WAS ON ONE R-46 F TRAIN AND IT (DING-DONGED) IN A FAST PACE.
ALL THE CARS HAVE DIFFERENT PACE DING-DONGS
BUT THE R68'S --- ALL SOUND THE SAME..... THOSE CARS CAME OUT IN 1987
AND THE R46'S ARE OLD --- 1970'S
Although this is hardly the season, I wonder if any subway folks can explain the TA's car heating equipment.
The worst I ever feel on a subway is during rush hours in the winter, especially early or late in the season. I am usually wearing a warm coat and hat, which is fine outside, but not on a packed train heated to 70 degrees. Some days I feel like I'm going to pass out, especially if I have been laboring under a bunch of packages on the way to the train. If the car is crowded and I'm holding my briefcase, its hard to take off my coat and hat and hold them. I always feel that the cars are too hot when the heat is on.
Can the TA control the temperture of the heaters, or is it just off or on? If it can control heaters, what temparture are they set for? Given that people are wearing coats, I think 50 or 55 degrees is high enough. Will the new trains have better control?
70 degrees possibly during the spring but during the winter if your lucky to get 40-50 degrees in the car interior your lucky. As for summer well your guess is a good as mine. I have no idea what car equip has for in ideal temp but maybe the future car orders will prove to be better?
On ALL NYCT cars, if operating properly, heat comes on below 59 degrees farenfeit. AC comes on above 71 degrees farenheit. AC & heat come on in stages as needed. Between 59 and 71 degrees, only the evaporator fans operate.
That's bad policy. In winter, 59 degrees is too hot, because people are wearing hats and coats -- especially if the heat does not quickly switch off at 59, but allows the temparture to rise into the 60s. No wonder I get dizzy.
In summer, the TA could allow up to 75. People are in shorts and t-shirts, and coming in from 90 degrees, 71 degree can be a shock.
What about rush hour vs. off peak? Body heat can be an issue when the trains are crowded. You need to keep or make it cooler. Off peak, you can keep or make it warmer.
Moreover, are the cars individually controlled?
Perhaps the new cars will have a more accurate heating and air conditioning system, and make these type of adjustments possible.
Your last question first, every car has its' own thermostatically controlled logic boards. Moreover, most cars (all IND/BMT) have controls for each end. The ends are staggered so both ends will not begin to cool at the same time. This avoids over and undershooting.
Every year I answer many customer complaints about HVAC. For everyone who says 59 is too high, there are at least one who say it's not warm enough. I have 4-zone heating in my house because my wife and I don't agree. It would be really unusual to get 50 people into a subway car and find more than 10 of them satisfied with the climate.
As for the AC, perhaps I was not clear. (This is only representative of how the system works) At 72 degrees, the #1 end of the car will go into low-cool. At 72-73 degrees the #2 end of the car goes into low cool. At 73-74 the #1 end goes into high-cool and at 75 the #2 end goes into high cool. Therefore, if you are too warm, go to the #1 end. Too cold, go to the #2 end. Moderately hot or cold, go to the middle of the car. Because the cold air travels through ducts in the ceiling, by the time it gets to mid-car, it's a bit more moderate.
Question: How can you tell the # 1 and #2 end on the car- especially if it has cabs at both ends (and is not a slant 40)
Some subway buff you are! R 40 & R 42 have no windshield in # 2 cab. Cars R26 to R38 do have winshields. Look in and there is no controls for the motorman. Plus. the top bulkhead is smooth. No end sign letter or number.
Also, you won't see headlights or taillights on the #2 end of those cars
How to tell the #1 end from the #2 end of a subway car. I can speak for A Div equipment. On the RedBirds, married pairs and single units, look for the hand brake out side the storm door. When you find it you are at the #1 end. The same rule applies the the SilverBirds, theres only one catch, the hand brake is in the cab. For none transverse cabs, if you stand with your back to the storm door and look in the little window looking down and to the operators left you sould be able to see it. From the operators perspective, the hand brake is in the left rear corner near the cab door.
Most cars have there ends numbered somewhere on the outside of the cab most likly the back wall, above the car number.
It is my understanding that the handbrake rule applies to all equipment except some of the work trains that were not converted revenue equipment.
Simple! There's usually a sticker near the Emergency Brake or the car number with a "1" or a "2" on it indicating which end of the car you're at.
--Mark
For a buck-fifty, you're lucky you get where you want to go, heat and A\C are a bonus.
The easiest way to tell from the inside of the car is look at the door posts. They are numbered from 1 - 16 on BMT/IND or 1 - 12 on IRT. The #1 and 16 doors are at the #1 end of the car (BMT/IND) and #8 & 9 are at the #2 end. That'll work on any contract car.
Steve- what about heat? does it work the same way with #1 end heat coming on first? is the changeover from heat to air automatic or is it manually done. What temps will the heat come on.
Speaking of the growing heat ...
Every day I stand under what I believe is one of the air-conditioning units that will make the Grand Central subway station(s?) the first in the NYC subway system with A/C.
So when are they gonna turn it on? Mid-June would be a REALLY, REALLY, REALLY good time to do that.
ALAS, I'm guessing that this unit, which looms over my accustomed spot at the uptown (last-car) end of the southbound island platform, is just a test unit, with the rest to be installed later.
Does anyone know the schedule? The unit I know seems to have been there a while, and seems to have been operated (soot around the vents), and seems to be inadequate to cool the whole station, so I figure my summer isn't going to get any cooler.
What's the scoop?
Heat comes on at 59 degrees or less. It comes on in stages but not by 'zones'. There are usually 4 stages of heat. Three are usually progressively hotter stages of floor heat and the forth is the addition of the overhead heat.
HERE IN PITTSBURGH,
WE HAVE 4 OPERATIONAL PCC'S. THEY ARE LOOKING FOR
POSSIBLY TAKING THE PCC'S OFF THE TRACKS AND MAKE THEM
SCRAPPED. IF YOU WOULD LIKE, YOU CAN COME TO PITTSBURGH
AND RIDE ONE OF OUR PCC'S(4004,4007,4008,AND 4009). WE ONLY
HAVE 1 RUNNING EACH DAY. ON WEEKENDS(THE BEST WAY TO RIDE
AND THE CHEAPEST), YOU CAN GET AN ALL DAY PASS FOR ONLY $3
FOR ADULTS AND $1.50 FOR CHILDREN. PITTSBURGH IS ALSO A VERY FINE CITY.
YOU CAN TAKE OUR LRT LINE DOWN TO STATION SQUARE AND RIDE THE INCLINE(FREE
RIDE ON INCLINES,LRT LINES,AND BUSSES WITH ALL DAY PASS.
THE LAST DAY FOR OUR PCC'S IS IN SEPTEMBER AND WE WANT TO ENJOY THE FUN WITH OTHER CITIES.
P.S. TELL ALL YOUR FRIENDS AND RAIL BUFFS
Say Adam:
Did you see my post of several weeks ago?
I'm looking for information regardinq Bicentennial PCC paint schemes. I was familiar with the car divided into Red, White and Blue vertical segments but recently saw a picture of one divided horizontally.
I was wondering if there is a story behind the different scheme, and just how many bicentennial cars existed in Pittsburgh
No news. No talks. City Council is allegedly going to pass a resolution that the courts orders talks to resume and strikers back to work.
Binding arbitration is the latest buzzword, refused by management, endorsed by TWU, but not going anywhere either.
Life goes on...
As of Saturday 6/13, tickets will be collected both ways on commuter rail lines instead of outbound only. Apparently the crowds are not as big as expected. One concern was that standees in the aisles would make ticket collection extremely difficult. It doesn't seem to be as much of a concern any more.
Regional Rail ridership is over 50% above normal and extra cars and trains are being added every day. The VRE set leased last week is operating on R5 and R7, I have heard. The coach yards are noticably empty at rush hours, with just about everything that can run out on the lines.
The whole idea of "labor" vs. "managmenent" is bullshit in the public sector. SEPTA is not passing big profits onto shareholders. And, if it is like any government agencies in NY, its managers are making far less than they could in the comparable private sector positions. Its non-managerial employees are making far more.
So its labor vs. riders and taxpayers. Are the riders benefitting from low fares, and the taxpayers from low taxes, by keeping SEPTA wages unfairly low? If so, the workers have a case. But an earlier post said SEPTA fares are among the highest in the nation.
As as for taxpayers, may I direct your attention to table 496 in the statistical abstact of the United States. The average household earning over $100,000 pays 9.7 percent of its income in state and local taxes, compared with 11.6 percent in Philadelphia. The average household earning $25,000 pays 8.2 percent of its income in taxes, vs. 12.5 percent in Philadelphia.
So who is Local 234's enemy here?
This would be valid if SEPTA's managers were low-paid. Unfortunately, SEPTA's GM is among the highest paid on US transit properties, and others in the fold are doing quite well also. I don't fault this - if you want the best people, you've got to pay competitively. The same goes for labor, and in this case, I don't think $17 plus an hour is so bad either (some of you, no doubt, will disagree, but this is my opinion).
As a customer of the system, paying the high fares I do, I expect a high level of return. There is nothing that says that government (and quasi-government, in this case, as SEPTA is a state agency by creation) shouldn't be just like private enterprise in its provision of services in the most efficient and cost-effective manner as possible with every attempt to please and retain the customer. Too often, we use the "good enough for government" standard (a false one at that) and say the poor service, as it exists, with the malcontents that don't want to work but want top dollar pay is sufficient for public transit, since only poor folks ride it anyway. With that approach, the only customers that will be retained are the captive ones. I'm afraid that this is where transit in Phila is headed, and few seem to care.
What are the diffence between the Viewliner sleeping cars and Superliner sleeping cars and which one is better?
Viewliner cars are single-level trains and are used mostly on trains in the eastern part of the country (east of Chicago and the Mississippi River). Superliner cars are double-level and are used mostly on long-haul trips out of Chicago operating to the west coast. I spent about 30 hours on a Superliner train about 3 years ago (from Denver to Reno, NV) and I found the trip very pleasant. Never been on a Viewliner.
The Superliners are also used on the Auto Train between Virginia and Florida. In Dec 1996 and Dec 1997 I did round trips. Superliners are very comfortable, smooth riding cars. Most seating in coaches is upstairs, so the view is excellent. Sleepers are quite comfortable - I got a decent night's sleep each way, and I was in a lower level berth.
Ive seen the scrapped train photos on the NYCSR page(s) and I was wondering if Mr. Pirrman or anyone else could tell me the locations and/or directions of any these "scrap yards". Any other areas of interest concerning disused subway equipment would also be greatly appreciated. I like to photograph all kinds of old mechanical stuff, railroads being the latest obsession. Thanks!
I heard most cars go to Naporano inNew Jersey. They are not rail fan friendly and their property is only accessable to see anything except by helicopter!
Some old cars are held for a while (maybe a long while) at a yard on the Brooklyn waterfront before being sent to the scrapyards. The yard is west of Second Avenue in Brooklyn somewhere around 35th or 36th Street, just behind the Costco store, and is visible from the street.
Alot of people have been saying that the Shuttle will be torn down soon. Well I have a question for you. Why have they not torn it down already? The Culver Shuttle was torn down they also had the chance to tear down the other shuttle. This shuttle line was not torn down because it was too important to take down. The Dean Street station was closed down because it was within walkin distance of Fulton Street that is all. Theis is only way for the passengers that work in Queens or in the Airport to go home to places like Coney Island. Without that shuttle they would have to the F train at Jay Street where you can be futher down. Also the people of Coney Island an other parts of the city use the Shuttle too be right in the middle of the Queens Botanical Gardens. And it one of the rare lines that give you a nice tree shade comfortable ride. In the summer people like that line because it has a lot of trees and it gives them a cool down and relaxing very little turn ride. Please can't you see that this line is special in its own way.
Well, now that the Franklin Shuttle is about to get a megabucks rebuild, presumably it won't be closed down.
Let's look at this logically. A good replacement for the Franklin Shuttle would be a free transfer among the Atlantic Ave.-Pacific St. megastation and the Lafayette Ave. (A,C) and the Fulton St. (G) stations via a tunnel walkway (or even a moving walkway if we all chipped in). Then everyone could get everywhere on trunk line trains and the people who live at the Park Pl. station on the Franklin shuttle could do what people who live at, say, Kingston Avenue and Park Place do: walk to either Eastern Parkway or Fulton St.
Replacing the Franklin Avenue Shuttle with free transfers elsewhere might be a sensible idea from a financial and operational standpoint. But what really matters is that closing the Shuttle would be impossible from a *political* standpoint.
For the most part, the Shuttle serves lower-income areas, whose residents believe - at least in some cases correctly - that they get treated poorly by the powers that be. The Transit Authority's impending weekly and, especially, monthly unlimited-use MetroCards already have been accused of being discriminatory against lower-income people. So the last thing the TA needs right now is to take an action that could be perceived as giving poor areas the shaft.
Another case in point was the "skip-stop" program on the 1/9. Orig then were going to skip 125th Street because of the low volume of traffic, but the heat from Harlem was too much for them.
Mr t__:^)
While it may be intellectually stimulating to think about how the TA should have spent the money it is spending to rehab the shuttle, it seems to be a done deal. Perhaps the TA can think of a way to get some use out of it.
Tourists are starting to come to Brooklyn (there is now one of those Double Decker buses bringing people over from Manhattan, and a fake trolley ciculating around propsect park). Most go the Borough's cultural area -- the Brooklyn Museum, Prospect Park, Botanic Garden and Zoo. The shuttle terminates in this area.
Perhaps the shuttle could be operated as an outgrowth of the Transit Museum on weekends -- like the Shoreline and other trolley musuems. It would be a living musuem. Old cars and trolleys would be put in passenger service two days a week. Regular ridership is so low the museum vehicles would probably not cause too many delays.
I don't think we'd want to worry about the insurance to cover the tourists riding the Shuttle into those neighborhoods
That's unfair. The area around the Brooklyn Museum, the Brooklyn Public Library, the Botanic Garden, and Prospect Park is certainly safe during the day and less so at night, as are many parts of NYC and others. I was around there a few months ago and it is still as beautiful around Grand Army Plaza as ever.
Other parts of the Franklin Shuttle may be not very safe, but then again lots of parts of NYC are like that.
Of course, I still believe it would cheaper and more convenient in the long run to connect the Atlantic Avenue-Pacific Street, Fulton St., and Lafayette Avenue stations, and scrap the Franklin Shuttle altogether, because of the expense of maintaining a 2-mile track and 3 stations, all of which (except Park Place) are served by other lines (and Park Place isn't that far from Eastern Parkway).
The area around the Children's Museum is beautiful, though poorly maintained. If the Black Middle Class continues to expand, and does not flee the city, it might be restored. I don't feel particularly safe there, but I wouldn't call it unsafe.
In a article in the Queens Chronicle, it mentioned the situation concerning the closing of the Willy B. According to the article, it looks like next April will be the month where the closure will begin. DOT officials said that the project will take about 5 to 6 months. The story also points out to the idea of constructing a temporary trackbed along the side of the existing tracks as a measure to avoid suspending service. In closing, if the work needs to be done;then let it be done. Building temporary tracks is an expensive a time consuming job says a spokesman from the DOT. In this case, service will have to be cut in order to complete the refurbishing of the WillyB. This is definitely going to be a burden for the residents of central Bklyn. It's now the MTA's job of finding a way to transport the J/Z and M riders into lower Manhattan whether it be by shuttle bus over the WillyB or by some other means.
-GarfieldA
Moving the tracks over was the original idea, but it was going to be too much trouble to do so they decided against it.
It was last summer when I first heard they weren't going to do it.
Cap'n Bludd C/r C/f
Yesterday I went to see "6 Days, 7 Nights". I don't highly reccomend it but if anyone goes to see it, in the first scene Anne Heche comes out of a subway station on the 'N/R'. I can't tell whether or not it was 23rd or 28th. If anyone goes to see it, can you check that out?
I'm about to take my first trip ever to New York City, where the cheapest form of transportation other than by foot is the subway system. I've only ridden on a subway once, and my memory isn't good enough to make me comfortable riding it again without knowing what I'm doing. I've researched a little on how things work, but I still don't understand how the whole thing works. Can you get anywhere from all stations? Do you need to catch specific trains at certain times to get to you destination, or does each train that comes every few minutes go the same route? What's the most efficient way to keep track of when to get off? How do you read a subway map? I can't tell what all the numbers and letters mean, and which lines they go with and why. Could someone please email me who is an experience subway rider and knows what they're doing and help me out? Thanks,
AmyKat 18
Most service operates 24 hours a day/7 days a week, or is replaced by one which does. My best advice is:
1)Get a NYC Subway map at any token booth and study it.
2)Check with someone at your hotel and get directions until you get oriented.
3)When riding on trains, try to stay in the middle, where the conductor is.
The maximum wait for a train during off-peak hours is roughly 20 minutes. At peak times, it could be as little as a minute. Enjoy your visit.
The advice that Steve posted is good. If you have a specific list of origins and destinations during your New York visit, post them on this site. I or someone equally subway savvy will be glad to give you specific directions.
One additional item. As soon as your arrive in NY purchase a $15 metrocard. It will give eleven $1.50 rides (one is free). Each time you enter the subway you can continue your trip on a bus without additional charge as long as you take the bus within 2 hours, 15 minutes of your initial subway entrance.
Can I clear a misconception that I've seen ON THE 'NET!!!!
If it's the 'R' train, it doesn't mean it goes to Rockefeller Center, and the 'M' gose nowhere near Madison Square Garden.
Most trains run all time during the day(especially the locals) but to get from A to B the fastest, if you have the guts, take an express train.
For all info, check out www.mta.nyc.ny.us, where you can access route information, or ask someone on the platform. It really isn't as frightening as most people would have you believe.
Just a note in NY as in any city a heads up attitude and being aware of who is around you at all times helps. The other information about getting a route map from the system is a good Idea If you write them at the Jay St., Address they may send you one prior to your arrival in the city. It worked for me the last time I visited. I think the address is in the official site that someone else gave you the address for.
Also if you will be in Manhattan the bus routes are slow but a good way to see the city from a secure vantage point.
370 Jay Street, Brooklyn, NY
Amy, In addition to the other posts thru Mon 622 AM I add:
Subways (both abv & below ground) are color coded,
e.g. get on the RED line & U can easily C where it goes, BUT look out for the folks in the road (e.g. 1/2/3/9 going North splits at 96 St)
The orig sys was a group of companies, three of which are still refered to a lot here:
IRT - the numbered lines
IND - A/B/C/D/E/F
BMT - J/M/N/R/Q/Z
Changing between these lines may be a little easier, but the TA has added many interchange points between the others. Also connect the dotts, i.e. look on the map for dotts that are joined to ID interchange points.
Travel outside Manhattan to get above ground, most lines, e.g. the #7 affords a great view of Mahattan as it comes down Queens Blvd.
Get a schedule if you know exactly where you're going. This is of most value at night when train times get streched out.
My wife loves the bus, so in Manhattan take the bus, get a N/S line and ride all the way to see the changing areas, then switch back underground to speed back home.
Bus: M=NYC, Q=Queens, B=Brooklyn, N=Nassau (LI), multi means the bus goes to both.
NYC "is the melting pot" and therefore can be a great place to see all kinds of people & things.
I wish you much pleasue on your adventure !
Mr t__:^)
You recommend to Amy that she look for forks. She should also clarify for herself the distinction between local and express trains, and learn how to distinguish them on the map and when standing on the platform.
Your list omitted the G (IND), L (BMT), and the various shuttles. As well, it's not quite accurate, and slightly inconsistent: the B, D, F, Q, and R trains all travel in part on BMT trackage and in part on IND trackage. In any case, the map does not make the distinction, nor do the trains, and only a few older signs in the stations refer to the three divisions.
As for the bus, you omitted Bx (the Bronx) and S (Staten Island). M is for Manhattan, not NYC (all five boroughs are NYC!). There is no "multi" designation, but multiple letters (e.g., BxM or QM) indicate privately operated express service between the indicated boroughs. X designates TA-operated express service, primarily between Staten Island and Manhattan. All express bus service is charged a premium fare beyond the standard $1.50 for bus or subway. This is not to be confused with limited-stop bus service, which is additional service on a handful of busy local bus lines that only stops at major intersections. Limited-stop bus service costs the same $1.50 as local service (as does express subway service).
Just making a few clarifications to avoid potential confusion.
David (Amy),
The NYC transit system is very complex, besides being B-I-G. It can be a little overwhelming to an out of towner. My first trip, as a teenager, ended in the Bronx. I was comming dwn from Ct in the dark and didn't appreciate how far away it was or how big/conjested either.
I did miss a few letters & I'm not sure the IRT/IND/BMT means anything to a new commer or if it help/hinders understanding.
If Amy sticks to Manhattan where most of the streets go N/S or E/W she maybe OK. At the lwr end of the island it can be a little difficult to find the subway stn. So have a plan of several places to go, get a map in advance, plot the locat of these places & even if you don't get to all of them you should enjoy the ones you make it to.
One more suggestion: visit Greenwich Village (A/E/B/D/F) at West 4th,
walk around, then go East to see NY Univ. You'll probally see a lot of people your age, and some old farts like me who still enjoy the place.
Mr t__:^)
Here's my explanation of the New York subway. This explanation goes well with a map, however. So try to look one up on the Internet or just look at an old one.
When you look at the map, there are 5 main north-south trunk lines, each with a different color:
Blue: 8th Avenue (A,C,E trains)
Red: 7th Avenue (1,2,3,9 trains)
Yellow: Broadway (N,R trains)
Orange: 6th Avenue (B,D,F,Q trains)
Dark Green: Lexington Avenue (4,5,6)
The others will be very rarely useful (light green, grey, brown, purple, black).
As you look at the Manhattan section of the map where the famous stuff is, focus on one of the colors, like Red. If you do that, you will see a line running along 7th Avenue and upper Broadway from the Financial District up to 96 St. It then splits into two lines north of 96. Most of the famous parts of NY are from the south tip of the Financial District to about 59 St, with some things as far as 86 St. The others are similar.
If you want ease and convenience, the Yellow Broadway Line (N, R trains) is the best to use. It has no express trains and every train on it (N, R) goes to the exact same places in Manhattan (no branches). Also, almost every famous thing is at one of its stations. I'll list some here:
South Ferry: Ferries to Statue of Liberty, Ellis Island
Rector St., Cortlandt St., and City Hall: Financial District and the Brooklyn Bridge
Canal St: Chinatown, Little Italy
Prince St.: SoHo
8th St.: Greenwich Village (central)
14 St: Union Sq.
23 St: Flatiron Bldg. District, Chelsea
28 St: nothing much
34 St.: Macy's, Penn Station, Madison Sq. Garden
42 St: Times Sq. Broadway theaters
49 St. Rockefeller Ctr, Broadway Theaters
57 St. Carnegie Hall
5th Avenue: FAO Schwarz Toy Store, Plaza Hotel, Central Park, 5th Avenue, fancy restaurants, etc
Lexington Ave: Bloomingdales, other stores
--------------
Ohter important places on other lines are:
66 St. on the Red (1,9 only ) train, Lincoln Center
86 St. on the Green (4,5,6) Metropolitan Art Museum and others
W. 4th St. on the Blue and Orange (A,B,C,D,E,F) Greenwich Village
Christopher St. on the Red (1,9 only): West Greenwich Village
42 St. on the Green: Grand Central Terminal, United Nations
116 St. on the 1,9 Red line: Columbia University
Delancey St. on the Orange (F only) line: The Lower East Side, only interesting on Sunday and only during the day.
---------------------------------------------------
Other convenient facts:
Every train has connections to every other train. If you get on at the wrong line, there is a place to change to the right one somewhere.
Trains in the center tracks of a 4-track line (2 each way) are expresses and may skip stations.
Something runs on every color line 24 hours a day. Something comes by during the middle of the day at least every 5 minutes.
The 42 St. Shuttle and the 7 (Purple) both connect Times Sq. to Grand Central.
Try not to go out to the street after dark at these seemingly innocuous 8th Avenue stations: 23, 34, 42, 50. They appear to be in midtown but are not as safe as the 7th Avenue stations. To get to the Bus terminal or Penn Station they are not dangerous but to go to theaters and hotels the 7th Avenue is much better, especially after dark.
Also there is comparatively little safe or useful stuff west of 8th Avenue between 14 and 57. It is mostly warehouses and docks, but there are some restaurants and apartment buildings so it's not all bad. But use judgment west of 8th Avenue btw. 14 and 57. (And the westernmost avenue before hitting the river is 12th Avenue.)
From 8th Avenue to 1st Avenue (or York Avenue), almost every place from Houston ("Zero") St. to 96 St. is safe.
Probably almost everything you want to see is in Manhattan. For the other boroughs, have a specific destination in mind. They are huge. Each other borough is about the size of Detroit (the largest city in your home state), I'd say.
Remember the 5 colors, and that Yellow is the most convenient for visitors.
Well done. Very useful information, especially the emphasis on the Yellow line (it's still the BMT Broadway line to me, though). You forgot two famous points of interest, though: the Empire State Building at 34th St. and the World Trade Center at Cortlandt St.
I was looking at a map of the area around the AMTRAK Sunnyside yards in Queens and I noticed something marked on the northside of the yard (a few blocks east of Queens Plaza) called the JFK Commuter Plaza. Does anyone know what this is ?
WHATS THE FASTEST SUBWAY CAR? PICK ONLY ONE. PLEASE NAME THE SUBWAY CAR TYPE/NUMBER AND FASTEST THE CAR CAN SPEED TOO.
THIS CAR IS IN ONE OF THESE ---> NYCTA, CTA, SEPTA, BALT, OR DC.
IF THIS ANSWER IS CORRECT YOU GET A PRIZE...... SO REPLY IN 2 DAYS SUBWAY FANS!!!!!!
DC Metro #1026 (Rohr) 79 MPH between Stadium-Armory & Benning Road
on the Blue Line. You are gettin' this one right off the dash, Jack.
See ya out on the "R" train!
Wayne
Wow! That speed on the DC Metro of 79 mph is pretty damm fast for a rapid transit car. I hear it is a fabulus systm. But in a way is it fair to compare the metro to the NYC subway system or to SEPTA? It's really like apples & oragnes. The stations are much further apart just like the PATCO line in S. Jersey, which travels much faster than the Market-Frankford cars. But speaking of those M-3 Market-Frankford cars they will give most subway cars a good run for there money when it comes to speed. By the way does anybody know if the new M-4 cars are faster or slower then the M-3 cars?
It was many years ago, but I remember seeing "83" on the speedometer of BART. It was, however, during the Carter administration -- perhaps the readout was in kilometers per hour???
Car All brightliners R-62 NYC subway on the 4 line it has a speed of 57 miles per hour during the stretch between 125 street and 86 street. I think that a train cannot go in to the 80s with out somthing bad happing!
R62's are not Brightliners -- I have heard them called Silver Bullets or Silverbirds. R32's are Brightliners.
Also, trains can go as fast as they are designed to go, if the track is in good enough condition. The design parameters are different for each type of car and for the systems within which they run. It is simply not true that "a train cannot go in to the 80s with out somthing bad happing!" (sic)
Back in the summer of 1971, I was aboard an "A" train, an R10 led by
car #3194, which in by estimation was in excess of 60 MPH between
59th Street and 125th Street. Of course, this is a guess - R10s did not ever have speedometers, but watching those local stops go by so fast I couldn't really read the station signs, I would have to say a mile a minute, at least, and maybe a bit more. A "B" train of old R-4 cars went lickety-split from 36th to Pacific back in late '68, and also worth mention is R6 #1277 on the "F" line in 1973, through the East River tunnel, both probably in excess of 55 MPH, maybe close to 60. Those old IND cars could really go.
The new unlimited use metrocard is a great way to communicate to the TA your dissatisfaction with service!
Example:
If you are kept waiting more than 17 minutes for your train, (People on the F, G and L lines know what I'm talking about) then riders should offer free rides to those who have not yet entered the system.
Simply swipe it for them.
Also, If you commute is more than 17 minutes due to delays, you can swipe your card while exiting the system in order to let someone else on for free. Theoretically, you can sell a free ride to an entering customer for 75 cents.
selling rides will get u arrested.
Then we should give them away as a common courtesy. Like holding the door for the person behind you.
Does the government dare outlaw philantrhopy??
Perhapse someone will be smart enough to write the cost of the montly pass off their taxes as they use it to benefit their fellow riders.
So you call door holding common courtesy. Hmm, don't you think you are delaying the train by doing this. Those few seconds holding doors at every stop translates into minutes on a long route like the F, increasing station dwell times down the line as more people will get on this train because it is late & getting later. Now the next train catches up,that train has a light load with its' leader picking everybody up. When you hold doors as common courtesy you can look at yourself as the cu;lprit as to why your fellow passengers down the line has a long wait. In the subway, every second counts.
You wouldn't be offering free rides if you waited 17 minutes for a train, just **one** free ride. Somehow, that doesn't sound like a forceful protest that will get the TA's attention.
Let's get everyone to do it.
chris what u need to do is buy a car.this would be a better plan.I have a employee pass and only use it to sign on the token booth computer.I think I may have used my pass one time in the past month.but,on a serious tip.the TA is serious about people not swiping other people in.u don't want to get arrested like that guy at 1st ave.on the L -line.just come down in the subway,and go about your business.the bus and subway is the best deal in the US.you must have too much free time on your hands.
Wait a minute here, DREAD (and also Allen).
I have no desire to protest.
But I thought it was going to be legal to lend the the unlimited Metrocards to other people.
Other posters have suggested this a bunch of times recently on this bulletin board, and I've never heard anyone say it's illegal.
For example, I go through a turnstile on my way to work, then pass the card back across to my girlfriend and board my train to work. Then she buys a newspaper or something, swipes through 18 minutes later, and boards her train to work. Alternately she could go upstairs and board a bus to work.
Now, if this is illegal I certainly won't do it, and I think the subways and buses are a great deal already.
But if MTA is allowing this type of "buddy system" use of the unlimited cards, then why not do it?
(Yes, I know I'm cheap. But then, I don't drive a car and pollute the air and clog the streets, and hey, a penny saved is a penny earned.)
I mean, the cards don't have your name or fingerprints or retinal scans on them or anything.
The idea is that you are allowed to lend your card to someone else only once your trip is completed, and not while you are still on the system. At this point, there is no requirement of having a fare card on your person while on the system, but wait until tokens are phased out, and I predict (from my crystal ball) that having a valid metrocard or metro transfer will be a requirement of system riders, and those who don't have one will be subject to arrest for fare beating.
The only idea of Chris C's that isn't flat out prohibited would be letting someone else use your card once you're done. Imagine entrepreneurs selling unlimited ride cards at every subway entrace for, one dollar. Of course, to avoid theft, they would have to seel the for 61 dollars, with a $60 refund when you leave the system and sell the card back. I don't think that we are likely to see a thriving busines like this any time soon.
--mhg
It's going to be 17 minutes between swipes? Assuming a $1.00 price, that's $3.00 earned per hour to stand there with your mama's monthly card and swipe people through. Not a bad weekend job for a teen. After one hour, you can buy a quart of beer. True, the minimum wage is $5.15, but entry-level jobs are hard to come by in New York City, and those younger than age 16 are not eligible.
Maybe fare evasion will be the teen sub-minimum "training wage" work the Republicans always want to reduce teen unemployment. Unfortunately, the only thing such fare-arbitrage theivery would train you to do is work on Wall Street. Moveover, if another teen shows up and begins to offer the free-swipe for 80 cents, you'll have to hire an enforcer to keep your "corner."
[It's going to be 17 minutes between swipes? Assuming a $1.00 price, that's $3.00 earned per hour to stand there with your mama's monthly card and swipe people through. Not a bad weekend job for a teen. After one hour, you can buy a quart of beer. True, the minimum wage
is $5.15, but entry-level jobs are hard to come by in New York City, and those younger than age 16 are not eligible.]
Won't happen. Kids today are way too impatient to stand around twiddling their thumbs for 17 minutes to make a measly buck.
>Won't happen. Kids today are way too impatient to stand around >twiddling their thumbs for 17 minutes to make a measly
>buck.
Agreed. The entrprenurial ones will buy a dozen or so cards and be able to swip one a minute or so. This won't be obvious or anything, and of course the start up costs are small, if you mug people for their cards. ;-)
--mhg
[The idea is that you are allowed to lend your card to someone else only once your trip is completed, and not while you are still on the system. At this point, there is no requirement of having a fare card on your person while on the system, but wait until tokens are phased out, and I predict (from my crystal ball) that having a valid metrocard or metro transfer will be a requirement of system riders, and those who don't have one will be subject to arrest for fare beating.]
That seems to be quite a stretch. A rider who uses up the last fare on a MetroCard might very well throw it out after entering the station. There's no reason to keep a valueless card on his or her person, and I just can't see what would be gained by imposing such a requirement.
>That seems to be quite a stretch. A rider who uses up the last fare >on a MetroCard might very well throw it out after entering the >station. There's no reason to keep a valueless card on his or her >person, and I just can't see what would be gained by imposing such a >requirement.
Certainly, todays habit might be to throw away the card (probably on the tracks!) because it has no value. It would have value if you were required to have it to prove that you had paid your fare. That is the standard on most rail systems in the world, including some subways (e.g. Washington D.C, Paris, Lisbon).
Several things would be gained by this requirement. First, the police would be able to catch fare cheaters without guarding the turnstiles. It would provide a reason to expel the homeless/panhandlers from the system that could pass Constitutional muster. And, specifically, the requirement would put a way to combat the sort of cheating that we are discussing. (Assume that cops would be able to read the "last time used" date on the card, and if it were sufficiently old, you're busted).
I assume that NYC will go to that system as soon as tokens cease to exist. We'll see if time proves me right.
--mhg
I forgot to add:
Aside from the pass-the-card-back-across-the-turnstile method, there are other ways to share unlimited Metrocards.
For example, if I work Monday to Friday 9 to 5, and my girlfriend works the night shift and weekends (admittedly an undesirable situation in many ways :-)) then I could use one card for my commute in both directions, come home, give that card to her, and she could use it for her commutes in both directions at different times.
Again, MTA isn't encoding any personal identifying info on the cards, so how would they know?
I repeat, I certainly won't do this if it's illegal, but if it isn't, why should I spend extra money for no reason? Does anyone know the answer to this?
that example is ok.but u aren't going to stand in front of the turnstiles and swipe people in for 75 cent,like chris wants to do.that is a crime.theft of service.
You're right, I'm not going to sell rides, and it probably won't even be convenient for me to share with a friend.
However, not to put too fine a point on it, but ... I have a WHOLE BUNCH of questions about this now that I never thought of before. Can anybody answer them?
In summary form:
What legal/technological/law-enforcement tools does MTA have at its disposal to stop others from doing various diabolical "black market" things with the unlimited time-based cards that could seriously erode revenue,
...such as:
1. Openly selling rides at the turnstile --- OK, I'm guessing this is actually illegal, maybe based on the money changing hands. If that's true, and someone does it, and they're seen doing it, they could be charged with a crime. (Is this actually illegal? Are MTA and NYPD, et al, planning to enforce it?)
2. Selling rides to someone AWAY FROM MTA PROPERY --- Maybe just as illegal, but seemingly harder to detect. You could use your weekly card to commute for five days, then, before you leave town for the weekend, sell it to an NYC tourist for a buck or two, to use numerous times over the weekend. The MTA would lose the money that the tourist would have spent to buy his/her own card.
3. Massive "Card Pooling": You buy a weekly card, put an ad in the paper, or canvass commuters at your regular morning subway station, and find maybe 10 people who enter the same station at particular times every weekday morning, or who have flexible work hours. Then every morning, one person swipes and hands the card back to the second person, who waits outside the turnstile, while you board your train. The third person arrives at least 18 minutes later, the second one swipes and hands the card back to the third one, and boards his/her train, and so on, and so on. Next week, someone ELSE buys the card. No money ever changes hands, but you get a ton of rides for next to nothing. Now ... is THIS illegal? If so, where does MTA draw the line? Are you allowed to pass the card back to just one person, and that's it for the day? Does it have to be a family member? What if it's your girlfriend or boyfriend? Etc., etc., etc.
I hope MTA has asked and answered all these questions. If not, well, this is New York City, after all, and you just KNOW somebody's going to try ALL this stuff and more, and our beloved subways are going to lose mucho revenues.
Can anybody tell ME the answers?
The MTA has no answer to these questions. The MTA staff and board opposed the unlimited ride cards, but they also opposed any other use of the suplus and were politically outmanuvered by the advocates in an election year. The question is, if revenues fall to far, in what manner will we pay for this decision?
the answer to your question is quite simple. as we always wind up doing, if revenues fall too far it is us, the commuter, who will once again wind up paying through the nose! what else could you think would happen???
O, silly me! I thought someone had figured all this stuff out.
I guess you can tell that I've followed the subway longer than I've followed subway politics.
And here it was only last night that I finished reading "722 Miles." I liked the part about the destructive revenue losses caused by the protection of the five-cent fare well into the 1940s, without compensating government subsidies. (Plus ca change ...)
But hey, at least that ultra-low fare was available to everybody, not just "gray-marketeers."
DREAD suggests in this thread that some of the above will get arrested for abusing the unlimited Metrocard. Maybe. If they do, then, as a former newspaper who covered the criminal courts (in NJ), at least I'll probably get to see some interesting legal challenges played out over this thing. I can see the headlines now:
"Teens busted for flying weekly cards to each other across turnstiles in paper airplane"
"Supreme Court rules same-sex couples entitled to same Metrocard sharing exception as heterosexual spouses"
"Giuliani aide, 11 others nabbed in illicit Metrocard trading ring"
Not that I'm cynical or anything.
The revenue losses from the five cent fares were bad for the subway. The government (with a little help from the unions) also killed the railroads. Regulations and work rules were put in place in the early days, when railroads were monopolies who could make or brake a town and abuse workers. But they were kept when the railroads faced competition from trucks. Railroads were forced to keep lines which lost money, and subsidize the loses with revenues from profitable lines. Worse, all the lines were privately owned and paid property taxes. Municipalities had every reason to gouge railroad property, since a railroad couldn't up and move. The unions prevented productivity gains. And the government built property tax-free public roads. The railroads made money the easy way -- deferred maintenance and disinvestment. Economist who believe the decline of the railroads were a result of a better technology (trucks) and the marketplace are wrong.
The government is doing it again -- by allowing massive mergers. If this keeps up we'll end up with just one monopoly railroad, with no incentive to innovate or expand. That's already the case with SLAMTRAK.
I said swiping people in at the turnstile is theft of service.just like you give someone a transfer or reduced-fare ticket is illegal.don't get me started on the same sex issue.am I the only one left with any morals in this country.
got that right.do I hear anyone say $2.00
Some thoughts: (please see my earlier post, though, which has a partial answer)
>2. Selling rides to someone AWAY FROM MTA PROPERY --- Maybe just as >illegal, but seemingly harder to detect. You
>could use your weekly card to commute for five days, then, before you >leave town for the weekend, sell it to an NYC tourist
>for a buck or two, to use numerous times over the weekend. The MTA >would lose the money that the tourist would have spent
>to buy his/her own card.
It seems to be that this is lawful. As long as one person at a time is using the card, it doesn't matter who uses it, and there is no prohibition that I am aware of on selling metrocards, tokens, $1.50 in change, etc. for use on ths subway. So you could sell your neighbor your weekly metrocard for use over the weekend, or your office mate, or a tourist, so long as you aren't using it.
But a large-scale business? Not likely, I think. To work, someone who knows in advance that he isn't going to use his card over the weekend has to get somewhere to find a tourist, convince the tourist to buy the card, and then the first person buys a new card for the next week. Possible, but how likely, for a few bucks? How do you collect enough metrocards to be profitable? Anyone who can afford to go away for the weekend is not going to spend much time selling a metrocard for a buck or two. This sounds more like a project for the homeless/deranged than any significant scam. I just don't see it happening on any kind of scale.
>3. Massive "Card Pooling": You buy a weekly card, put an ad in the >paper, or canvass commuters at your regular morning
>subway station, and find maybe 10 people who enter the same station >at particular times every weekday morning, or who have
>flexible work hours. Then every morning, one person swipes and hands >the card back to the second person, who waits outside
>the turnstile, while you board your train. The third person arrives >at least 18 minutes later, the second one swipes and hands the
>card back to the third one, and boards his/her train, and so on, and >so on. Next week, someone ELSE buys the card. [snip]
This would be inlawful, but again, it faces real challenges to becoming a problem for the MTA. First, the 18 minute delay is unattractive to the ten commuters, as is the fact that people are rarely on time, day after day (ever carpool?). But beyond that, it's easy to detect -- passing the card through the turnstiles is pretty obvious behavior. And, who wants to wait in a subway station for 18 minutes in the hot/cold/filth, just to say $1.50 or less? I think that the anticipated six-minute restriction on card re-use will dampen most schemes like the one you suggest.
A final thought on this general topic -- suppose that some people really do cheat the system by dropping metrocards out bus windows to their friends, etc. Is the lost revenue more or less than the gained revenue on getting money up front for the metrocard? This will be very hard to calculate, since the cost per ride on the unlimited card changes with each ride taken. But the point is, if I give the MTA $63 on day one, and on day 30 I get a friend on the system for free, has the MTA made more money in interest and lack of debt service than it lost one lost fare that could be no more than $1.50? Indeed, would the MTA get any revenue at all from my friend, e.g. if he wouldn't have traveled for a fare, or would have jumped the turnstile? The question of whether the MTA will really lose money from this kind of cheating is difficult, and so the question of how to police and how much policing is also difficult. I don't know the answer.
--mhg
swiping and collecting money at the turnstile is theft of service.all station agents will call the police.
Chris,
You'll send us all an E-mail from jail?
All I am saying is that all riders should swipe their cards again while exiting to allow the next entering person a free ride. It counts as your good deed for the day. Can you not already feel the energy of a daily good turn towards your fellow stranger? A sense of community. Hey, We're all looking out for each other. That is a positive thing! It will cost you nothing and such good deeds will always come back around your way. And I don't just mean in the form of a free ride, I'm talking about sharing the experience of New York with strangers. Is that not what the subway is all about?
smoking is badd
and?
Well, I will be leaving for London tomorrow for vacation and will be back in two weeks to get ready for Yale. I graduated yesterday, but my spirits were dampered by the Septa situation.
You can't even get schedules for City Transit routes(not that they'd be useful). Latest word, City Council President John Street is seeking legal action to force the TWU back to work and both sides to the bargaining table.
So again, you may not hear from me for a while, so it's been fun, I'll check for responses until tomorrow, so C-ya.
Have a ball
but as they say is Merry-Old
MIND THE GAP! And I don't mean Buy New Jeans.
Paul,
Congrats on your metriculation to Yale. Good luck. Have a great time in London and ride the underground a lot. Maybe you can E-Mail Kate Sloan and get together with her to tell her U.S. Transit stories while you are there.
Only a few stations with very curved platforms play "Mind the Gap" messages. Of those that do, the Central Line platforms at Bank are a must. I think that they must have made the recording in the 1950s. No one in England speaks like this anymore, not even on the BBC.
>Only a few stations with very curved platforms play "Mind the Gap" messages. Of those that do, the Central Line platforms at Bank are a must. I think that they must have made the recording in the 1950s. No one in England speaks like this anymore, not even on the BBC.<
Max
Is the Jubilee Line Extension going to revive this tradition in a big way? Their website has recordings of "Mind the Gap" by:
Steve Cooke, Maggie Greenwood, John Talbot and Georgia Greeph.
I also recall seeing it painted on the platforms in some cases. I know it was on the BritRail (I'll have to get straightened out on the present private operators one of these days) Greenwich Station. It's in one of my travel photos. Every now and then I have to explain to someone, what it means.
Marty
Unfortunately, the Jubilee line is going to have the opposite effect on the "Mind the Gap" tradition. The extension is the first in the UK which is going to have platform doors which will open only when train doors line up next to them. Apparently this is for ventilation rather than safety purposes. I suspect that there will be dead-straight platforms with no gap to speak of. On the other hand, the older sections (North of Baker Street, the Jubilee Line is an old Bakerloo Line branch) will have gaps and there may well be warnings if it is not intended to bring the older sections up to the new standard. Otherwise, an unsuspecting passenger may get on at brand-new Westminster, and then disappear under the train at Swiss Cottage.
National Railways appear to have a problem with sinking platforms. This is the only explanation I have for steps up of over 1 foot in some places to get onto a train, but no steps upwards in other places. My old station in London (North Dulwich: Connex South Central; Greenwhich is Connex South Eastern) had Mind the Gap signs painted on the platform a few years ago, but there is no audible warning and it always struck me that anyone looking down at the platform to read the warning is looking in just the right place to see that there is a gap. People with poor eyesight on the other hand who actually need a warning would not necessarily be able to read the sign.
You know Max I feel a bit dumb.
The "Extension" has a great web site. With all their talk about Platform Doors, I never thought about the reduced need for "Mind the Gap" warnings.
I think that the LT Museum may be responsible for stressing the Gap message. When my son was in England several years ago he bought me a coffee mug with the UG map and Gap slogan upon it. When I was in London a year later, I'll have to admit that I did not hear the warning as much as I expected to. There were plenty of T-shirts available at the Museum, however, that had the message.
And yes, the Greenwich station is on a curve. Would that have been London South-East sevice three yeasr ago?
Toronto must have learned from England because they use "Mind the Gap" like we use "Watch Your Step".
Very interesting. I hadn't noticed. I just checked the date on my last visitors pass. It was October, 1991 I thought it was less than five years ago. Will have to get back there this summer..
Thinking about it, it is rather weird for a major public body to use a safety hazard resulting from poor design for their publicity (c.f. hospitals sending out cups with "sometimes we screw up" written on them). I think there is another "Mind the Gap" message at Waterloo or perhaps Embankment (Bakerloo Line) where the curves are really ferrocious (at one station, there were lightbulbs under the platform edge that lit when a train arrived). The tight curves are also an operational nightmare because they slow down trains and cause bunching. Not a serious problem on the Bakerloo line because it is not the busiest, but this completely ruins the Central line service.
For a while (including three years ago) all the London urban and commuter lines of British Rail came under the same management and were called Network Southeast. Now they have been split into numerous private franchises (at least 10) which try not to acknowledge each other's existence and whose main managerial skills appear to be embezzlement.
When I took the N out to Coney Island this past Sunday to look
at the yards, (well technically B since they were rerouting
N traffic going south) I noticed 2 abandoned express tracks
going all the way from Coney Island (Stillwell) to 59th street
where the N meets the R. Anyone have any info on when these
tracks were last used? There were rocks & things between the
third rail and the wood cover. It must've been wonderful at one
time...not a single stop on the whole line!
I think they were last used for revenue service in 1968 (they actually
had a service called "NX" which ran from 57th St-7 Avenue through Coney Island to Brighton Beach). I don't know if they use them now, even for diversions due to problems/construction etc. I was on an "N"
once in the early 80's that used a section of these to bypass a work crew on the northbound local tracks.
The Sea Beach Express tracks were also used from the early to mid-1920s right through 1952 or 1953 for Franklin-Nassau service on Sundays and holidays during the summer. Those trains made the stops from Franklin Av to Prospect Park, then express down the Brighton, through Stillwell Avenue/Coney Island (in the early fifties, they used old Track 'A' coming from Franklin--the easternmost track in the terminal, now Track '1,' I think--track redesignation was another BMT casualty to the TA's lettering of trains), express up the Sea Beach, with stops on Fourth Avenue at 59th, 36th, Pacific, then over the Bridge to Chambers Street.
The service was one of the TA's first deletions of special service outside of rush hours. But it was a lot of fun even for the kids from Bay Ridge going to Coney Island for the day. The round trip was, of course, twenty cents in the early 'fifties for the express, compared with the $1.50 it now costs to make all those extra stops. Somebody might want to check out the running time on a Sunday from Franklin to Chambers in 1935 compared with now!
Ed
Alfonsin SUNY at Potsdam
I HAVE THE ANSWER TO THIS QUESTION....
THESE TRACKS ARE ONLY USED TO TEST NEW/OLD TRAINS.
THERES A RUMOR THAT THE NORTH EXPRESS TRAINS WILL BE PULL AND ONLY PEAK AM/PM DIRECTION SERVICE WILL BE ON THIS LINE IN THE FUTURE. A NEW PLATFORM FOR STATIONS 62ST AND KINGS HWY WILL BE BUILT WHERE THE NORTH EXPRESS TRACKS WERE...................
(1) What would be the purpose of the new platform? Why would it be built on the old northbound express trackbed since it won't access the southbound local track?
(2) Are you saying that the N/Sea Beach line may be operated only during peak hours, in the peak direction? This would be a
first" on the subway system.
I don't understand the strategy behind such a change. Is it to divert non-peak passengers to the nearby B and F lines?
I'VE SURVEYED PASSENGERS ON THE LINE FROM 59 ST TO CONEY ISLAND.
74% WOULD LIKE THE N TRAINS TO RUN EXPRESS PEAK HOURS
STOP AT 62ST AND KINGS HWY ONLY.
19% WOULD LIKE SKIP STOP SERVICE.
7% SAID WHO CARES.......
THIS WAS JUST A RUMOR FROM THE TA BOARD....THEY WANT TO GET RID OF ONE SIDE OF THE TRACKS IN THE NEAR FUTURE.
What's the basis of the responses? They don't sound like responses from people who would access the N/Sea Beach at 8th Ave., Ft. Hamilton Pkwy., 18th Ave., 20th Ave., Bay Pkwy., Ave U. or 86th St., which would be the stops by-passed with express service. Would there be a new local service to these stations? Where would it go to? With the reluctance of the MTA to provide peak direction express service on the nearby West End, which has B and M trains during the rush hour, why would the MTA be willing to provide peak direction express service on the Sea Beach? And I don't see how the proposed new express platforms on the abandoned northbound express track would allow easy transfer between southbound/PM express and local trains. The West End doesn't have that problem at 9th Ave., 62nd St. or Bay Pkwy.
And does that Sea Beach have the daily patronage to support such express service? Does it have more or less usage than the West End?
Any comments?
The BMT southern division has one too many lines, and too many stations. The good news is that lots of people live within a short walk of two or more stations on two or more lines. The bad news is that where will be a long wait at the station, and a long ride with many stops to Manhattan.
Is there a way out? What if you were to extend the express tracks of the F subway down McDonald Avenue to Bay Parkway, then across Bay Parkway to link with the southern section of the N at 65th Street. The Culver El would be abandoned, and the Sea Beach beyond Bay Parkway would be mothballed.
The 10 trains per hour on the N would be redistributed to the F, the B, and the R. The R could go from 9 trains to 12, the B/M from 13 to 16, and the F from 14 to 18 trains at peak hour. Rush hour express trains service could be added on the West End and F line. Moreover, the TA could even add trains -- something it cannot do now because of congestion in the Montigue Tunnel and remaining Manhattan Bridge tracks. So you could raise the number of Brighton trains by a couple as well. And with a better local turnaround at Church (no crossing over the express), the G could be extended there as well.
Some people would have to walk a little farther, but everyone who lives within a 10-15 minute walk of the subway now would still have no more than that. Those unable or unwilling to walk could switch to a bus for free -- bus lines run into the subway at several points.
After walking a little farther, subway patrons would wait less -- due to the shorter headways -- and ride a lot faster -- due to the added express service, with the same number of trains (or more trains) on fewer lines. And with the same number of passengers in fewer stations, the stations would be more active and safer.
The subway would be expensive, especially since part of it would have to be constructed under an old, active, elevated. On the other hand, the TA would shed the operating costs for 11 stations and three miles of old elevated. Depending on the construction cost, this could be self-financing.
Your comment about one too many lines and stations close together was interesting. If you look at the south Brooklyn part of the subway map, you'll see that the 4th Ave., Culver and Brighton lines all head in a north/northwest direction and don't cross each other. The Sea Beach and West End lines also head in that direction but have the unique characteristic of almost being entwined with each other (both start at Coney Island [as do the Culver and Brighton, of course], then separating and coming together at New Utrecht Ave. & 62nd St. (WE crosses over the SB), then rejoining at 36th St. and 4th Ave. Looking at the map, I tried to envision the routes of all those lines minus the West End. I repeated the process, but minus the Sea Beach. It does appear that the Sea Beach basically provides an overlay that essentially isn't needed. Eliminating the West End creates a wide gap between the Sea Beach and the Culver, from about Bay Parkway heading north. From Bay Parkway heading south towards Coney Island,
the Culver and Sea Beach approach within about seven blocks of each other. If the Sea Beach was dropped and the West End retained, the map shows a fairly constant separation between it and the Culver.
As you point out, there would not be much additional walking distance for people using the Sea Beach who would need to take either the 4th Ave./R, West End/B/M, or Culver/F. With the free bus/train transfer program starting soon, there should be no problem at all.
One advantage of retaining the West End, along with the Culver, is that both already are built with some express-type stations. Neither line has its middle track being used for this purpose. The Sea Beach doesn't have this capability. If it was shut down, service demand on the West End for sure, and maybe the Culver, could warrant some type of express service. Looking at the Bronx lines, all except the Jerome Ave. line have some type of peak express or skip-stop service. Maybe a hard look at south Brooklyn transit infrastructures, line patronage and potential service improvements (increased frequency and some express service) would make even ex-Sea Beachers appreciate the change. It would also reduce transit operating costs with one less line to staff and maintain.
This may be controversial, but some areas of the city (parts of Queens, the Bronx and even Brooklyn) are quite far from transit lines. Even with a South Brooklyn line dropped, South Brooklyn would still have transit services people in those other areas could only wish they had.
Simply dropping service on the Sea Beach would free money to be spent in the suburbs. Not what I had in mind.
My thought was to trade the replacement of the old Culver El with a subway from Church Avenue to Bay Parkway, down Bay Parkway and into the existing Sea Beach ROW, for the loss of the Sea Beach E of 65th and Bay Parkway. While the Sea Beach is the most poorly located, it is also the best built. Moreover, an F to Sea Beach route would follow the route of the highest density housing. See the full post for the full idea.
If you don't keep the money in Brooklyn, there is no reason for Brooklyn to go along. And the system of approvals is such that it takes near unanmity to do anything.
These days, pragmatics rules and I don't think you will ever see money allocated to underground part of the Culver line or to connect it with the Sea Beach. The West End and Culver, as they now exist, can handle trains at greater frequency and have a middle reversible track that can be used for peak direction expresses. In your approach, the Sea Beach north of Bay Parkway and the Culver south of Bay Parkway would both be abandoned. Looking at the placement and spacing of the lines, the Sea Beach is the one that seems most duplicative of the 4th Ave., West End, Sea Beach and Culver lines. Improved service on the West End and Culver, coupled with the upcoming free bus/train transfer would overcome the problem. People who would walk would have only a few more blocks, at the miximum, to walk to either of these two lines instead of the Sea Beach. As I noted earlier, there are people living in parts of Brookly,n, Queens and the Bronx who would only be glad to have service as close as what would exist in
South Brooklyn even after one of those lines might be shut down. The MTA would save money from lower operation maintenance and staff costs.
If a new subway tunnel is to be built, a replacement for the failing Manhattan Bridge tracks should now be the MTA's top priority. A 3 or 4 track tunnel connecting to both the Broadway line (at the unused Canal St. express station) and Christie St./6th Ave lines must be built. As a backup, another approach would be to use the Rutgers and Cranberry tunnels and connect them to the Christie St. and Broadway lines, respectively. The Cranberry connection could be at the abandoned lower level of the Chambers St. station.
This replacement is a must. Without it, any "Coney Island Express" or any other south Brooklyn line using the Flatbush Ave. tracks, whether now going to the bridge or Montague St. tunnel, will continue to be adversely affected. And if the trains are eventually barred from the bridge, there will be a monumental transportation disaster for south Brooklyn. Let's try to get the MTA to work face up to its responsibility, accept it, and prepare the necessary substitute infrastructure before total shutdown to trains occurs.
TO TRANSFER JACK.......JUST DIG A HOLES TO NORTH AND SOUTHBOUND PLATFORMS.
A long-standing beef on my part--I think that before anybody talks seriously about eliminating old BMT Southern Division lines, there should be a close study of the effects of the TA's service cuts and alterations on those lines and on Fourth Avenue and Broadway/Manhattan. With Rs and Bs cut back to shuttles at night and no expresses, who would want to ride those trains? Forty years ago, there was an express every ten minutes and a local every ten minutes along Fourth Avenue--now there's one local every twenty minutes. One way of forcing people off a route is to make it so inconvenient and uncomfortable that they don't want to ride it. It's ancient history now, but look at what happened when BMT Culver service was cut (from rush-hour express, day and evening local, and overnight shuttle from 36th Street to Ditmas) back to a 9th Avenue to Ditmas shuttle and any trip to a Culver station turned into a minimum of two trains. Chekc out Franklin, which has been discussed a lot here lately. It all turns into a self-fulfulling prophecy and maybe that's what's happening.
Twenty-four hours a day, the N-Sea Beach used to stop at 59th, 36th, Pacific, Canal, 14th, 34th, 42nd, and 57th--compare that--8 stops-- with the current, "improved" service (stop-and-go and slide back and forth on the plastic seats) with its Toonerville routing and 25 stops. And there were three Broadway expresses (two of them 24 hours) and two Broadway locals. Now there's one train every twenty minutes instead of an express every ten minutes and a local every ten. Wonder why people don't ride?
It's probably cynical on my part, but with bus/subway transfers and unlimited passes, we're going to see an increase in ridership all over the system, which will be used as an excuse not to do anything about changing current service. I've wondered over the years when the TA was going to start paving over the Broadway Express tracks to run a bus line.
If the TA had left the original Chrystie/Nassau connection in the Chrystie construction, the Broadway express tracks into the lower-level Canal Street station could have been reconnected temporarily to the north side of the Manhattan Bridge (with a grade crossing) to allow alternate Bridge service from Broadway and Houston/Chrystie and one of the Sixth Avenue services to operate via Montague Street. But that would have made sense and would have interfered with what seemed to be the TA's long-term plan to remove Brooklyn expresses from Broadway. If some of the money being spent on the 63rd Street connection into Queens Boulevard were shifted to the Canal Street area, some riders might come back to Brooklyn routes. (BTW, does the 63rd Street connection really do anything except reduce service on 53rd or 59th/60th Streets?--if Queens Boulevard is operating at capacity now, all that would happen is to shift some trains to a different tunnel and cut some crosstown Manhattan service.)
Ed Alfonsin/SUNY at Potsdam
Congratulations on a clear and accurate description of how thins used to be on these South Brooklyn lines and their operation and connections to Manhattan. I agree with you that the results of the 63rd St. connection to the Queens Blvd. line may not yield great things, though I recognize that addition of another route to Manhattan should ease some of the crowding. Of course there was a "victim" : the truncated G line. Still, attention to the current, and possibly worsened Manhattan Bridge problems, for trains, should be at the top of the priority list for MTA money expenditures. After all, they are resolving the Lenox Ave. tunnel problem. They should now be proactively planning to resolve the Mahattan Bridge problem. I think a new 3 or 4 track tunnel that would connect both to the abandoned (express) Canal St. station and Christie St./6th Ave. line needs to be planned and built. An alternative is to somehow increase the capacity of the Rutgers and Cranberry tunnels and somehow make appropriate
connections to the BMT Broadway (maybe at Chambers St.?) and Christie St./6th Ave. lines.
During various NYC fiscal crisis' midnight subway service was cut to avoid duplication of services. This helps to run single track services during midnite G.O.'s also. True there is much less Broadway service since Chrystie St. and various Manhattan Bridge closures, but most of these service cutbacks were diverted to Sixth Ave. I would like to see additional midnight hours' service all over in light of increased and increasing subway usage. For example, only one local service running on Lex during the overnite hours is ludicrous. And if I had to start over as a motorman or conductor: to have to do 1 or 1 1/2 or 2 round trips (depending on the day and time) on the midnite A local from 207 St. to Far Rockaway in a cramped R44 cab, well I would have been led away to the insane assylum before that pick was over.
Just as I was reading todays posts, I heard on the news about a boy falling to his death from a Q train making the curve out of Brighton Beach. They didn't know whether he was playing or just crossing, but when I fisrst heard where and what line, I said "yep, those R-40's". I avoid crossing through the b end when going around curves and switches, and prefer not to go through when the train is moving period. This end is even worse than the infamous slanted "a" end. There is absolutely nothing to hold onto, except the flimsy chain (at least the slant end has all the gates and stuff). Everybody be careful when crossing though those cars!
They have to get rid of them period. The R-68, 110B's and R-44 are great models to replace the killing model. They must get rid of them or more people will diw or they will have to reinforce those cars.
C. James Rivera
The Slant R40 has been around for thirty years and is safer now than it was when new. The solution, as is described in one of the other responses is simple: Lock the "b" end doors. Leave the "a" end doors open, as the safety gates do afford some protection. The "b" ends of the R40's are very similar to those on the R40M's and R42's - nothing but a chain between cars. As for myself, having ridden many, many Slant R40's in my day - I NEVER cross between the "b" ends when the train is in motion. My condolences to the family of the boy who lost his life to-day.
Wayne.
The 42's have a handrail on the B ends. It's only 40 and 40m that don't
Do we get rid of the 825 R-62As because a kid fell between cars on the #6 line. And do we get rid of the R-68s because a flag-man was killed when he fell between cars at W4 St. in October 1994. The fact is that EVERY car class in the NYCT system has had it's share of fatalities (except for the R-110s). Shall we scrap them all. Get real. The problem is not the cars. It's the people that think they are large lionel trains.
Where does this stuff come from?
I know that incident very well because the guy who died was part of the crew I was on that night and I also knew the T/O of the train, and although we never were able to determine exactly what happened, one thing for sure is he didn't fall off the train.
Cap'n Bludd C/r C/f
As a matter of fact, he did. I was part of the investigation team with System Safety and the NTSB. His hand print was on the bonnet of the car from which he fell. Unless you are thinking of a different incident, get your facts straight.
It seems that we have covered this subject before, however, in light of todays incident I think it bears repeating. Subway trains are safe when used with common sense. Knowing that the train was going to accelerate, around a tight 90 degree curve and then change tracks on a diamond cross-over, one, using common sense, would not cross between cars at that moment. The question is not whether the young man was crossing between cars as some reports suggest or that he was horsing around as in other reports. The question is why didn't he use common sense. The R-40s are no more or less safe than any other car. The actions by some individuals make them seam so. As a father, and yes, a grandfather, I regret and dread any loss of life, especially a child. Unfortunately, be it a car, a motorcycle, a bicycle, rollerblades or a subway train, if you take your mind off what you are doing or if you act foolishly, any of these transportation modes can jump up and bite you in the ass. It can and does happen - even to transit professionals with dozens of years. When you forget or when you are careless around them, subway trains will bite.
[Knowing that the train was going to accelerate, around a tight 90 degree curve and then change tracks on a diamond cross-over, one, using common sense, would not cross between cars at that moment.]
Riders on an unfamiliar route will not know these things.
If the R-40 "b" ends are dangerous, why not lock the end doors as with the 75-footers?
crossing from car to car entails some danger while a train is moving, why not wait till the train is stopped in a station? so now an entire fleet of cars should be zeroed in on because someone falls? crossing from one subway car to another should be done only if an emergency exists not for convenience sake.
Very good point. Plus when the train is stopped it is most likely to be stopped in a station in which then you can just exit the train from the platform and move to another car.
But isn't the reason why they can't lock the doors on the R-40's is because the doors on the 75 footers can unlock automatically in case of emergency, while the doors on the R-40's have to be manually unlocked?
Maybe so. In that case, install handholds between cars as on the R42.
Even if that were the case, the other door at the "a" end would always be unlocked. And post a sign to this effect at the "b" end.
I don't feel there is any subway car that's "safe" to cross between cars while in motion. If you take the car class that appears to be the safest, it can still be deadly if one is not careful or involoved in some sort of horseplay. The R-40's are being targeted unfairly.
If I had to pick one car class that was safe to cross between cars, I'd have to say the 'D' types were the absolute safest. Even a moron could not fall under between the A, B, and C units
I would have to strongly agree with you on that post. It's not like everyday or so that someone is losing their life when he/she attempted to cross a subway car of that type. If it a scenario like that, I assure that the MTA would notice a trend and call for the modification or termination of cars of that type. Most people that I've seen would wait until the car passes a sharp curve or is in the process of switching to another track.
-GarfieldA
I can't remember ever riding those type of cars with the slanted end(eg. B,Q,N,and L lines). But I know that the R40's cousin that operates on the J,Z,M, and L lines can also be dangerousas well. Some of the cars have the handles at the straight end of the car. But numerous times that I've crossed between cars, I noticed that there were no handles of any kind on the straight end of the car. The other end which I called the "domed" end because of it's domed top front always have handles on their end.
-Garfield
The ones without the handles are the R-40m's, which except for the modified end (the R-42 style "dome" replacing the slant) are the same as the others.
There are grab handles on the #2 ends of the R-42 when one crosses from one car to another, but none on the R-40 model. Conductors have reported that the R40's should be refitted as a safety issue, but it has not been done. I would assume they were put on the R42 because of this being missing from the R40.
Why not just graft handrails at the end of the cars ( b end). It will give something for the MTA to do. It will give the newspapers something about the subways to grip about. It will make the trains a bit safer. And it will give the MTA an excuse to remove the R-40s from the Brighton Line.
Still what has happened is tragic and I feel for the family. But kids have to understand that they are not immune to harm and should make some attempt at expressing some reasonable caution on what can be a dangerous situation.
According to the reports I saw on the news last night, he was a diabetic, who had been drinking brandy and orange juice with the other kids celebrating the end of school, and he was SITTING on the chains before he fell under. If so this while sad, proves that stupidity was the cause of the accident, not the type of train.
Cap'n Bludd
According to whose accounts you believe, one of the NY Dailies said he was on the way up to the roof. So he may have been standing on the chains so he could climb up onto the roof. We'll never know, but school dismissal is the worst time of the day in transit and the primary reason why I like many others who can, don't pick jobs that are out there at school dismissal time. That's the worst time of the day, bar none. I've worked the Brighton Line during my early days as a motorman and people riding on the roofs of cars was always a big problem: school dismissal time & beach crowds going home. Some guy with a few drinks in him can get pretty fearless!
I worked the Charlie in the summer for a while when it went to Rock Park, and there were ALWAYS idiots trying to get on the roof.
I don't miss dealing whith those fools at all.
Cap'n Bludd C/r C/f
For those who are interested, here is the rest of the story about yesterday's 12-9 incident at Brighton Beach. According to reports, the young man was legally drunk. He was with several friends and was attempting to get to the roof of the train to do some 'roof' surfing.
I heard that they were also playing tag and while they running between the "b" side cars thast train made its curve and the kid fell. I just heard this Steve.
The follow was mailed to (I assume) all commuters on the LIRR Oyster Bay branch....
==========
[Wrapped around the letter:]
OFFICE OF THE COUNTY EXECUTIVE
NASSAU COUNTY
MINEOLA, NY
THOMAS GULOTTA
County Executive
I thought that the enclosed might be of interest to you.
Cordially,
[signed] Thomas S. Gulotta
[The actual letter on similar letterhead:]
June 3, 1998
Thomas F. Pendergast, President
MTA Long Island Rail Road
Jamaica Station
Jamaica, New York 11435
Dear Tom,
We request that the Long Island Rail Road's new diesel fleet be utilized first on the Oyster Bay Branch.
We believe that this proposal will not only benefit the customers of the Oyster Bay Branch, but the Railroad, as well. Please consider the following:
* The new equipment will attract new ridership to the Oyster Bay Branch, thereby improving the the Railroad's revenue stream.
* Ridership that has gravitated to the Port Washington and Main Line Branches will return to the Oyster Bay Branch, thereby, alleviating crowding on these other branches.
As you know, the Oyster Bay Branch has long suffered inadequate service and poor equipment. Your cooperation in implementing this proposal will provide our taxpayers. and your customers with the quality and reliability of equipment that they deserve.
We look forward to your favorable reply.
Warmest regards,
[signed]
RICHARD J. NICOLELLO, County Legislator
THOMAS S. GULOTTA, County Executive
JOHN CANNING, County Legislator
cc: Hon. E. Virgil Conway
Hon.Alfred. Werner
Hon. David Mack
Hon. David Scannell
Riders on the Oyster Bay line might have to wait a while. I have heard that the coaches will go first to the Pt. Jefferson line and then to the Montauk line. Oyster Bay will come third and the Greenport shuttle will bring up the rear. Presumably these are in order of ridership.
Keep in mind that politicians have, for years, talked about replacing the Oyster bay branch with a Light-Rail line. Except for the point about te Port Washington Branch, I can make the same argument for the Port Jeff or Montauk branches. The fact is that if the new fleet were used on either of those two branches, ridership on Ronkonkoma, and Huntington or Ronkonkoma and Babylon (respectively) would moderate and have more impact then the Oyster Bay branch.
That's exactly the point. Much of the overcrowding on the Ronkonkoma line - and believe me, it's ghastly on those trains - is the result of riders being drawn off the Pt. Jefferson and Montauk lines by the Holy Grail of a (drumroll, please) single-seat ride to Penn Station. The quick and easy change at Jamaica is, to the minds of many LIRR riders, equivalent to a 100-mile barefoot trek across a scorpion-filled desert. They'd sooner put up with the horrible Ronkonkoma trains.
In a way, I dislike the idea of catering to these prima donnas by introducing the dual-mode locomotives in diesel territory. But if it leads to a more equitable distribution of ridership among the Suffolk County lines, then I suppose it's for the best. The bilevel coaches, in contrast, are needed beyond any doubt, given the condition of the current fleet.
I think a one-seat ride is a valuable amenity, and the dual power locamotives are a cost-effective way to achieve it (relative to full electrification). After all, when the riders get to Penn, they generally have to get another seat on the subway to get where they are going. No doubt the quality of life and attractiveness of these areas would improve subsequent to one-seat service.
How about Brooklyn? The MTA should connect the G to the 53rd St tunnel, and reverse the connection to the F at Jay, to provide a one-seat ride to Manhattan for Greenpoint, Williamsburg, and Clinton Hill. I'd get G ridership would soar, and property values in the area would rise, if such connections were made. How about the Bronx? Why doesn't the MTA contemplate re-opening service in former stations in the Amtrack ROW.
While on my way, I 've seen that the MTA has started it's advertising blitz for those passes that will roll out on Independence Day. Still with all the advertising, is the MTA ready for the next surplus in straphangers ????????
-GarfieldA
Garfield, But where R they going to come from ?
- Cars ... some
- Walkers ... nah
- $1 Vans ... some
- Other forms of transit, which ones ?
- New works who were staying home due to cost of transit .. nah
- Taxi cabs (trips during the day), maybe some
Traffic did pick up throughout the cities' system when the "free transfer" deal came about. But where does the TA think all this extra business is going to come from ?
Mr t__:^)
You said that people who typically walk wouldn't use the subway more with the new unlimited passes.
I know that now I will frequently walk or rollerblade rather than take a bus or subway because of the cost. But with the unlimited pass, I've already paid a flat fee for my daily commute - and since extra rides cost nothing - taking the subway suddenly becomes much more attractive.
Will this be a huge influx of riders? I don't think so - since it won't really affect rush hour traffic. But I think it will increase weekend/off hour traffic somewhat. I'll probably use the subway 10% - 20% more.
The trips will be extra trips.
You were going to walk a block to grab lunch, but you see a bus and its free, so you jump on and go five blocks away. You were going to walk to the park, but you ride the train one stop instead. You weren't going to spend the say in the city, because you are poor and couldn't afford it, but its free so you go ahead. Or your kid does. You weren't going to pay $1.50 extra to get off the subway and stop at the store on the way home from work, but its free, so you do. And messengers might give up bicycles, or at least bring their bikes on the train.
The MTA thinks of this as the ultimate off-peak discount -- free -- and is assuming (hoping) that all the additional trips will be off peak, and will not strain service. BUT unlike a straight off peak fare (75 cents?), the only beneficiaries are those who already ride the train to work five days a week. Non-workers riding occasionally, even off peak, get no benefit, since $63 is more than they would pay in cash. Part time workers don't get help either. Your kid doesn't get a break if he or she rides with you off peak. And there is no incentive for 9 to 5 workers to shift their schedule.
Moreover, with an off peak discount those extra riders would pay something, and the additional trips would offset the revenues lost by cutting the fare. Now the MTA faces extra riders with no revenues.
I am a perfect example of something you're not mentioning here -- but it's something that strengthens your argument.
I commute on the Lex (and through World Trade PATH) to and from work "every weekday" ... but not exactly. Sometimes I'll walk to or from the 33rd St. PATH instead on nice days, or take a cab if I'm late or carrying heavy stuff.
But if I'm paying for a weekly or monthly unlimited card, you can bet that I and others in my situation will feel a little foolish losing those missed subway rides and start to take more of them ... meaning more rides at PEAK, --- even without an increase in the number of "everyday" subway commuters.
I think Larry and Francis are identifing the major sources of additional rides. In many small cities, where weekly or monthly passes are introduced, it was noticed that a large lunchtime group of riders appeared. Those people, using transit for their work commute, suddenly discovered that the could go home for lunch at no additional transit cost. The size of New York City will probably hold down this group.
Are flexible work schedules popular in NYC. In many cases, the ability to come to work an hour earlier, or depart an hour later produces a rise in noon time shopping.
I think Larry and Francis are identifing the major sources of additional rides. In many small cities, where weekly or monthly passes are introduced, it was noticed that a large lunchtime group of riders appeared. Those people, using transit for their work commute, suddenly discovered that the could go home for lunch at no additional transit cost. The size of New York City will probably hold down this group.
Are flexible work schedules popular in NYC. In many cases, the ability to come to work an hour earlier, or depart an hour later produces a rise in noon time shopping which would result in additional off-peak rides.
Depending on the frequency of midday subway trains, which should be high, I would think that the size of NYC would ENcourage lunchtime ridership more so than a smaller city. I can see a person working in Wall Street hopping a subway to their favorite Midtown restaurant more so than, say, a person in LaSalle Street hopping the L or bus to the River North restaurants (though both would happen and do happen now without such a pass).
I say this because there used to be a weekday midday-only $0.50 shuttle bus between the Loop and River North called the Dining Loop, and another to North Michigan Avenue called the Shopping Loop. Neither exists anymore.
I don't know whether analogies can be drawn between London and New York but here goes. We got a convenient, cost effective system of unlimited tickets in London between 15 and 20 years ago (these were zoned). To that point there had been more or less continuous decline in Underground usage since the 1950s. The effects of the new tickets were not immediately apparent, and this may be coincidence, but over the next few years there was a surge in journeys until the system was carrying more passengers than ever before in its history. The extra journeys were at all times of the day and on occasions brought parts of the system to a standstill during peaks. LT had to buy more trains (even put trains for scrap back into service) but the increase in ridership was not covered by the increase in revenue.
However, the new passes were designed to include season tickets for British Rail commuter lines, so perhaps the extra peak journeys were people who would normally walk from their commuter terminal to work could get the extra Underground ride for free, I presume that this benefit would not apply in New York. On the other hand, all London passes that last longer than one day are strictly issued for one person (a photocard is needed) and so passback is not possible in London.
Max
When I was in London I traveled on a 3 day Visitor's TravelCard. It was multi-zoned and usable on Close-in Brit Rail stations (such as Greenwich). I know it was limited to post morning peak travel, because we were 5 minutes early one morning at Green Park and had to wait for acceptance through the fare gate.
I can not remember, however, if the pass also had to be used for exit. I'm thinking that it did because of the zone fare.
My quess is that if proof-of-payment can be handled by the London Underground, it should also be possible in NYC.
One additional question. I can't recall any evening ban on use of the card. But then again, the Pubs were such a great early evening event, that perhaps we drank our way through this period. Some delays are essential.
That sounds about like what we might expect here, except that in many key areas the TA cannot add rush hour trains because of track capacity. These include the BMT southern division (due to the Manhattan Bridge disaster), the Queens Line (until 2001) and the entire IRT. Added riders off-peak are good. Added riders on peak are bad. If we get more of both, we have a problem.
The comment about the Underground having to bring scrapped trains back into service is interesting. The TA is about the scrap the Redbirds, but they are IRT trains and, as mentioned, the TA cannot add trains to the IRT at rush hour, so you can't keep them. It may be a while before the R40 can be retired after all.
The same goes for the surface (bus) division (incl the TA & private operators (7)). Rush hour every avail bus is out there, at my co we're about 20 % down on the qty of "spare" buses that U need to cover a % out-of-service, so "making service" is nail biting time every AM & PM. We wo'nt get anything new until Oct/Nov. So for a while we'll have to keep the fleet of 200,000 plus mile buses going & going, but adding capacity is not in the cards.
Disclaimer I don't work for the TA or any or its divisions.
Mr t__:^)
The idea of adding extra trains to lines like the IRT will be chaotic. With the rerouting of the #2 train which has caused congestion within tunnels underground of Lexington Ave then adding additional trains to the already swamped Lexington line; BAD IDEA !!
Marty
The one day Travelcard can only be bought after the morning peak (i.e. can be used for evenings), but anything longer than one day can be used all day (i.e. for commuting). There are now entry and exit gates at all the busy underground stations but generally not in the suburbs, there have been crackdowns on ticket inspections lately, but many journeys are possible in the suburbs without having to have a ticket inspected. After a few experiments in the early days, people travelling on the Underground have always required to carry a permit to travel of some sort, I guess that the subway token would have to be abolished before zoned fares or on-train metrocard checks could be made.
Glad you enjoyed the pubs.
Larry
I don't have my copy of "Under the Sidewalks of New York" here, so please excuse this if it is a silly question.
You say that Redbirds are IRT trains, this presumably means that they are smaller than IND/BMT trains. Is this the only difference or are there voltage/current collection differences too? If size is the only difference, presumably Redbirds can run on IND/BMT lines but the gap between platform/train would be too large for safety; about how large would it be?
In London, the Underground has the Surface Lines and the Tube Lines which are effectively different systems. The Surface lines are more or less main-line sized trains (somewhat shorter due to tight curves) but the Tube Line trains have to squeeze through 12 foot diameter tunnels: they are about the same width but much lower. This means that dual running is possible (e.g. the Uxbridge line) although never entirely satisfactory. Even amongst the tube lines, matters are not simple. Due to less severe curves, the Piccadilly line cars are much longer than for the other lines (six car Piccadilly line train equals seven car Northern line train) and the Victoria line trains cannot run anywhere else because of the automatic signalling, which will of course be incompatible with the new signalling system on the Jubilee Line. The problem is the need to capitalise on new technology coupled with the fact that an Underground Train can expect at least 30 years service.
Just a quick postscript. The information that I have for London tickets is for UK residents only. I don't know what is on offer to tourists. However, I do know for sure that there are no evening peak restrictions on travel for any Underground tickets.
Thanks for the reply.
Glad your on right now. I'll let the Techies answer yout questions on differences. The major difference as I understand it is a difference in width of 8'9" vs 10' (measured at the door threshold) and a 51'length for the IRT car vs probably 64',67' and 75'(with certain line restrictions) for the BMT/IND cars. From some of the previous posts, I gather that there is a difference in location of the "Safety Trip" also.
Oops, I'm getting too technical. I don't have the expertise. If my memory serves me correctly, isn't there a considerable variation on the UG as to the placement of the third rail. Does it not vary from center location on some lines, to side location on others?
When I visited 3 years ago, I believe there was a 3 day and a 7 day visitors pass available in the states. Mine came as part of an American Airlines package deal; the " later than AM peak" was in the instructions issued. The card itself does(did) not mention hours but is speciific about non-transfer and the need for possession as proof of fare. There is(was) no photo id though. Incidentally, now that you mention it, the time that I remember being delayed for several minutes, was the day after our multi-day pass expired and we purchased the additional 1 day pass at Green Park.
Having just been to London, the multi-day Visitor Travelcard (the one purchased outside the U.K.) is not restricted in terms of A.M. rush travel. Buying it before you go over is cheaper than buying it when you arrive and you don't need a photocard to go along with it. When I go over there I buy a 7-day Zone 1-6 card to cover the trip from/to Heathrow plus any Underground joyriding into the outer zones I might want to do.
Dave:
I quess it only goes to show that many experts don't know what they are dishing out. I pulled the instructions from the travel agent before I replied because I was surprised that there was no mention of time on the pass (I'm quite lazy when it comes to documentation so hanging on to the pass is my way of at least recording date-I was surprised the other day to discover it has been almost eight yreas since I've been to Toronto].
I'm impatient too! But with all the recent comments regarding the Unlimited Pass, I've decided to wait until the unlimited pass goes into use before telling people how it works.
Thanks for the correction.
Marty
Power collection on the Underground is completely standardised now with a 4 rail system. The far rail is at approx 650 volts DC and the centre rail is earthed (I think it is safe to touch it). The separate eath rail was due to fears of earth current leakage damaging sewers and building foundations (and associated lawsuits – nothing changes). Although reliable, this leads to the highly complex pointwork at junctions. Given that most tube lines run through cast iron tunnels, I can't see LT risking change, anthough when the Moorgate-Finsbury Park line was transferred to BR, it was converted to 3 rail current collection without too many problems, and the Waterloo and City Line in pre-London Transport days also appeared to run quite happily without the 4th rail (which I think has now been added but I will have to check).
On the commuter rails south of London and North to Watford, current is distributed via a single power rail, at between 650 and 850 volts DC, earthed via the running rails. This is almost always on the far side of the track which is just as well as all current rails in the UK are unguarded, so a bizarre accident is curtains more or less, although this happens very rarely. With a few exceptions, the rest of the UK electic lines are overhead lines at 25,000 volts AC, and in some places it is possible to hear them fizz during wet weather.
My modem just blew me off in mid communication.
I'm sure it's the commuter system that has me mixed up. I have 3 Video 125 tapes that are about due for reviewing. Promise to be more attentive.
BTW. Did you see David's post to me. Apparently the overseas Multiday Visitors Card has no AM restriction either (assuming you get an informed travel agent) which accounts for the absence of a time notations on the card.
This is probably a good point to warn people travelling to the UK about the current state of the rail system. Since privatisation, interavailability of tickets upon trains is disappearing fast, different operators are failing to publicise each others' trains and tickets are no longer necessarily valid for all operators between identical stations. The national enquiries telephone line is failing to give correct information. So, if you are travelling outside London (e.g. Oxford, Cambridge, Stratford, Edinburgh, York) make sure that you get reliable advice. For long distance journeys (e.g. Lndon to York):
Always ask for names whenever anyone gives information plus the company that they work for.
Be wary about the use of bargain tickets on Fridays, these are the ones that are most likely to be issued incorrectly leading to hefty surcharges.
Make sure that you state intended times and days of travel for return as well as outward journeys when purchasing tickets.
If possible, ask advice before joining a train.
If you can reserve seats on particular trains in advance, then do so. Usually this is inexpensive or sometimes free and can be done the day before travel. It is not possible to book seats without showing a ticket to the issuer, which is all the proof that you need that you have purchased the ticket in good faith, have not screwed up, it is someone else's fault and therefore not your problem.
The Underground is still in state hands and seems to be being run far more effectively. Unfortunately, the new government is trying to find a way of privatising the system, but until then advice from agents on ticket availability is far more likely to be accurate than for the national rail system.
IRT (A division) equipment can physically run on the IND/BMT (B Division) lines. Third rail and track gauge are identical. There is a gap (about 1 foot) between the platform and door silll, so IRT trains never run revenue service on B division lines. Trip arms also differ slightly, so that's another reason IRT equipment cannot run in revenue service on the B division.
Non revenue moves occur frequently. The IRT #7 Flushing Line's only link to the rest of the system is at Queensboro Plaza to the N line. The #7 line cars are stored at Corona but receive all heavy repair work at Coney Island.
The heavy overhaul and repair work on the remaining IRT fleet (for the 1,2,3,4,5,6,9 lines) is done at 207th Street, which originally was built for the A train in 1932.
There is a track connection between the #4 Jerome Ave. elevated near Bedford Park and the IND Concourse Yard to permit IRT equipment to access B division tracks.
The big boom in NYC is self-employment, now 15 percent of the workforce and going up, and work at home. These are free-lancers and others who work on a project basis, often from their homes, and who go to Manhattan for meetings or other work, but not every day, and often off-peak. In part, this is the legacy of downsizing, while in part it is the result of growth in industries (computers, media, art, culture, entertainment) where self-employment is common.
My big problem with the pass is it does nothing for these people at all. If you take two trips to Manhattan per week (16 rides per month), you are now spending about $22 per month on transit. A $63 monthly pass does you no good. I know lots of people like that, and they all own cars. Sometimes they take an auto trip, and sometimes a subway ride. Which do you prefer, a transit trip or an auto trip? Now I hear the MTA is considering off-peak discounts at the tolls -- a good idea in itself, but one which will provide an even greater incentive to drive in during the middle of the work day when combined with the full $1.50 fare for the subway.
Larry, et. al.,
Eye C eye struck a nerve with my post ... G O O D !
Re Larry's comment, yes the unlim card is priced just above the value card, BUT I'll bet a lot of customers R going to switch, just because they think they're getting something OR might use the FREE benifit,
hay 15 vs 17 for a week, U only need a couple of extra rides to get the benifit (i.e. take the bus/subway to lunch, or buy lunch at the Deli & bus/subway to South Ferry & watch the boats), plus the weekend is free, so if U live close to the city, wait a minute only ONE gets the FREE .... hum may the TA has something here, daddy gets a free ride but mom & the kids have to pay, that's extra revenue !
Seriously, I hope all of these incentives result in less cars comming to the city, but the TA better get off there ass on these construction projects in Queens because the underground system by & large doesn't have the capacity !
Mr t__:^)
With the unlimited metrocard (daily, weekly, or monthly) all of a sudden there are more free transfer stations on the subway, such as Livonia Ave (L) and Junius St. (3), or Queens Plaza(E,F,G,R) and Queensboro Plaza(N,7), or Bleeker St.(6 uptown) and Bway Lafayette (B,D,F,Q), or the two Courthouse Sq. stations (E,F,G with 7). Now that will be worth it to many people.
Can the daily pass be bought at ANY station or are they going to limit it? I am going up there with my children in July sometime and need to know.
Actually this year I am going to 4 transit vacation spots for short trips: Philadelphia, NYC, Miami, and Atlanta. Don't tell my wife that they all have subway/elevated systems. She thinks it's to sightsee or go to baseball games or Broadway shows or to see my mother or Stone Mtn. It's actually to ride the subways. Of course every night I pray that the SEPTA strike is settled soon.
Carl, The DAILY won't come out with the others in July, maybe sometime in the Fall.
With a family the VALUE card might be better. Up to four customers per card (each pays a fare & each get one free transfer). At 20 or 30 dollars you also get some "bonus" money, i.e. $2 or $3, that comes off the card at first use. The 20 card is a stinker because it's had to use up that .50 unless you put another 20 in & then had 2.00 + .50.
You might be interested to note that "Cubic" equip will be collecting the fare in each of the cities that you are visiting, except Philly.
Mr t__:^)
One interesting feature about Atlanta's MARTA. The turnstiles accept (as of my last visit in 1996)coins, tokens and cards. The cards are inserted in the front (like PATH) and are ejected on the top. The Bus uses a swipe reader next to and connected to the farebox. I do not know if the bus operators clean the heads, but I've seen and heard mis-reads. The driver then looks at the card and manually records the fare via pushing a button on the keypad on the farebox.
While on the subject of MARTA, according to their web site, www.itsmarta.com, they are experiementing with vinyl florring to replace the carpet.
CTA turnstiles also take coins, tokens, and Transit Cards, but unlike MARTA, the card disappears into a slot on the top (that it, it is not swiped), is read, and then comes out the same slot. The same kind of slot is on the bus fareboxes.
CTA turnstiles also take coins, tokens, and Transit Cards, but unlike MARTA, the card disappears into a slot on the top (that is, it is not swiped), is read, and then comes out the same slot. The same kind of slot is on the bus fareboxes.
Is South Ferry's inner loop revenue or non revenue track?
i believe the inner loop is non-revenue...check out south ferry under disused and abandoned stations on this site.
It used to be revenue until the mid-late 70's when a shuttle ran from Bowling Green to South Ferry
It's still revenue track, minus the station. The #5 Lexington trains, when marked "Bowling Green' as the south terminus, loop around through old South Ferry much like the #6 loops at Brooklyn Bridge. You can see the #5 trains from the #1 South Ferry Station.
One addition: but the NYCT has people at Bowling Green and they tell you "everybody off". Some weekends I have seen 5 trains at ATlantic In Brooklyn (running light) before they rveerse ansd go back to Manhattan.I do not know( Steve ?) if the section is like City Hall IRT where the official policy is you may stay on.
Check the track maps---Are the tracks on the inner loop still connected to the main line Lex. Ave. line?
I believe they are. #5 train turns round in there when it ends at Bowling-Green. They're doing some track work in the BG area, that may explain why the #5's deadhead out to Brooklyn in order to turn around.
A few months ago all Bowling Green bound 5 trains were relayed lite to Atlantic in order to be turned back Northbound. A switch in the loop was being replaced, that work is done now.
Philip,
The inner loop at South Ferry is non-revenue (Customers are not permitted to ride that section of track). The loop is used to turn southbound trains at Bowling Green back northbound. Also, though I have never seen this done, southbound trains at Bowling Green can be routed up the West side via a switch in the loop that connects with the outer loop.
Good morningÑ
Here's the latest on the SEPTA Strike.
ÑTalks between the TWU and SEPTA are scheduled for a "secret location" today. The two sides last met Monday in a meeting described as cordial, but no progress was reported.
ÑA vote is scheduled in City Council Friday on a proposal that would authorize the city to go to court to force the two sides to negotiate. Mayor Rendell has vowed to veto the resolution. Removed from the resolution is a clause requiring the union workers to return to work as part of the lawsuit. Union chief Stev Brookens calls it a clear victory.
For updated information, go to http://www.septa.com/ or http://www.kyw1060.com/ (the latter being the all-news station in Philly).
Unfortunately, I don't know how to do the links properly, so if Dave Pirrmann could e-mail me privately with instructions, I'd appreciate it.
Kind regards,
Michael
Nothing new to report. It's now relegated to secondary news status. The City Council resolution is up for a vote on Fri 6/19 but what effect it may have is negligible.
TWU'ers blocked the tracks leading from Frazer Yard (Malvern) this morning, causing minor problems on the Paoli-Downingtown (R5) line.
Meanwhile, tickets are back to being collected each way on the commuter rail lines (still in the lines on the mezzanines at Suburban Station and Market East for outbounds, but on the trains on inbounds). The Gallery (mall) in Center City and various shops at major transit stops such as Frankford Terminal, 69th Street, and 52nd Street are taking serious hits and businesses report up to 70% downturns. Stores in the Gallery are closing at 6 PM rather than the 8-9 usual time since patronage is way down (despite Market East being right at its doorstep). One business in the Gallery complained since lines for a couple rail routes form near its door and are being blamed for keeping customers out! (The story is in today's Phila Inquirer, reached at www.phillynews.com.)
Ho hum... The gridlock and other associated mobility disasters that would shut down the region still have not kicked in...
I need to go to Wall Street tomorrow & would normally take the train to Penn & subway down. I'd like to try the route via Flatbush Avenue & I have a couple of questions.
To go to Wall street, I could take the 4/5 or the 2/3 from Flatbush, which is better in terms of speed, amount of service, and safety, either the 4/5 or the 2/3 ?
Where is closer to the exit for the subway, should I be in the front, middle or back of the LIRR train ?
Thanks.
bfbyrne,
The exits are closer to the front of the LIRR train for the 2, 3, 4, 5. (The stairwells at the middle of each platform are better for the BMT/IND lines.) As far as which trian is better, it all depends on where your going. Yes the 4/5 have fewer stops, but if your'e going to 100 Wall St, the 4/5 is a waste. Here's my rule of thumb: if you're going between 1 and 50 Wall St. use the 4/5. Consequently, if you're going between 50 and 100 Wall St. use the 2/3. Also, it's been my experience that the 2/3 to Wall St. from Atlantic Ave. is only marginally faster than the 2/3 from Penn Sta.
I hope this has helped.
--EJM.
The 2/3 and 4/5 are approximately same running time to Lower Manhattan. 4/5 tends to be more crowded, though. Note that during a good part of the morning rush and again till about noon, the 2 is now running along 4/5 route and will make East Side IRT stops.
Key is to know exactly where your destination is in Lower Manhattan. 2/3 trains stop along William St. at Wall St. and Fulton St - also stops at Park Place near World Trade Center which also connects to A/C/E trains at Chambers/WTC.
4/5 trains stop along Broadway at Bowling Green, Wall St, and Fulton St. At Fulton, the 2/3 and 4/5 are part of a large free transfer complex that also includes the A/C and J/M/Z trains.
You can also use the BMT trains from Pacific Street. The N and R stop at Whitehall St., Rector St., and World Trade Center. The M stops at Boad St. and Fulton St. While these trains are less crowded than the IRT routes, due to the mroe generous BMT dimensions, they also tend to be slower. There are lots of curves entering and leaving DeKalb Avenue and again in Lower Manhattan as the trains literally snake along.
In terms of safety there is not a problem if you're travelling until about 9 PM. In off peak hours the IRT trains tend to be used more so more people are riding with you.
For many years I commuted this way on the LIRR and the subway to reach my World Trade Center office, so this trip was once a daily part of my life.
And don't forget that because of the uptown Lenox Avenue construction, there are very few 7th Avenue trains running and many trains running up Lexington Avenue. So the 4/5(and 2 because of construction) platform is the best bet.
Also -- as already stated -- the 7th Avenue Line stops at Wall and William, which is the far east end of Wall St. That may not be where you want to end up. The Lexington Line stops on Broadway, next to Trinity Church.
Yeah it's off topic, but It's on a 100' screen!
-Hank
(Live from PC expo98)
I call it the R-151. The design is made for the B2 and B1 systems. The design has a normal 4 doors systems. It will have a special map that will tell where the train next stop is and there will be another map for the blind. It will have a special type of cross car bridge so that you cross the bridge that can move on turns. The seating will be the same like the the R-33/36 model. In case of fire there will an oxygen bags like on airplanes and automatic decupling when a derailment happens so when one cars go off the tracks it will decupile and everybody else will be saved and there will be special bumber to protect from front impacts. Tell me what you think
Good idea. The only problem I see is with the oxygen masks. How are you going to pack the large amount of oxygen masks needed for everybody in the car. Your talkin big bucks for at least 2000+ oxygen masks on the entire train. I like the decupling idea a lot, although maybe it should be hooked to the emergancy breaks. For example, if the front part of the train jumps the track and the mid and back parts of the train are decoupled, the mid and back part of the train must stop before it hits the front part of the train that derailed.(so that they don't collide)
Other then that sounds good.
The oxygen idea is literally more trouble than help.
Fires in the subway are relatively rare, and rarely large, because there is little to burn in the subway, except possibly for the garbage. They have oxygen masks on planes more for loss of pressure than for fire, and anyway they have them because there is no way to evacuate. On the other hand, in the event of a subway fire, one can and should escape from a stopped train by going to the nearest emergency exit or station. In short, masks are on the plane because people have to stay put but people should evacuate a train, and neither have to nor should stay put.
Masks on the subway are more risk because of the need to either carry large tanks of flammable oxygen or highly flammable oxygen generators (which allegedly caused the ValuJet crash in the Everglades). The risk of these devices is acceptable in a plane only because the inability to evacuate creates a strong need for oxygen. With no need on the subway, the fire risk of oxygen masks becomes unacceptable.
If you don't like oxygen on transit vehicles you have to love the Chicago fuel cell buses that use atmospheric oxygen but have tanks of compressed hydrogen on them.
The idea of the masks has been takin out everything will remain the same read the top when done.
Many commendable ideas here (save for the oxygen). I've come up with some of my own "fantasy designs" over the years, most of which are hybrids of existing cars (my W-43 car: body of R42, end doors of R16, side doors and little handholds of R15, lighting of R38). I think one would have to ask ones self which cars held up for the longest time and had the lowest failure rate. Simplicity of mechanical design, with some of the more modern touches you describe, would be the ideal subway car of the future. Maybe you could incorporate the little vestibule from the D-type Triplex car (there's a set at the Transit Museum) to keep people from falling between cars. Also, incorporate some cosmetic features of the "classic" cars like BMT Standard, R10, R15, R16, that stand out visually, but make them to today's standards and specs. Of course, stainless steel bodies are an absolute must.
And please, don't take away my beloved Slant R40's! I couldn't bear to ride the subway without them.
Wayne
Listen, all great ideas but I'd 86 the oxygen bags. Oxygen will turn a minor fire into an inferno, instantly. I guess you're too young to remember Apollo 1.
Anybody got a picture? Sounds nice.
There's been all this talk about how only some riders will benefit from the new unlimited-use MetroCard. Why stop with riders? Health clubs will be the real beneficiaries. People with the new cards might very well end up walking less and using transit for short trips. Soon enough they'll start noticing that clothes which fit last month are now a wee bit tight - and it's off to the gym!
Hmmm, I'll have to see if I can buy stock in NY Health and Racquet Clubs :-)
Perhaps they will want to advertise on the subway. A new opportunity for Madison Ave.
I have travelled around the country and used unlimited transit passes in New Orleans, Boston, San Diego. It makes transit use for unfamiliar riders easy, especially in San Diego where there is a Proof Of Payment system and zoned fares. Why does New York make transit so tough for the casual user? A one day pass should be instituted and sold wherever there is a station agent.
There will be a one-day unlimited use MetroCard sometime this fall. Last I heard it will be priced at $4.
I have noticed traveling the E and F line and the G line that on the R46 trains on almost each truck of the cars thate is a piece of wood bolted to the sides of the wheels as if a metal piece should be there instead. I have also noticed it on the IRT Lexington line cars too. Is this how they replace the fatigued metal on the wheels that connect the wheels on each truck. I hope you know what I am talking about.
It's not on almost all, it's on all the trucks of every car in the system. It belongs there, if you take a better look you'll notice the third rail shoe is connected to it. If you know anything about electricity you'll figure out what it does. 8')
Cap'n Bludd
Take another look. Every car except the R-110B has them. They are called Shoe Beams and suport the 3rd Rail Contact Shoe. Incidently, they are not bolted on. They are supported between 2 hard rubber blocks called Gibb rubber. By contrast, the R-110B has a device called a current collector. It's made of Fiberglass (I posted a picture of one on the R-110B page). Originally, the current collectors were used on the R-46s but they kept catching fire and thus were removed.
The unlimited metrocard will come in handy when it rains. You can walk underground from 43rd Street and 8th Avenue to 40th and 7th without getting wet. (Roughly .25 miles!)
Just look at the map, there are miles of pedestrian walkways which will now be free to rain avoiding pedestrians.
On CTA trains, on the right side of the door between the cars at the end of the car without a cab, there is a wood board or plank stored vertically in a metal bracket. It has one side treated with rough material as if to give traction or slip protection if someone walked on the plank.
I have wondered for years what this is for. Anyone know?
Would these be for evaculation of train's in emergencies, or the transfer of passenger's between trains?
I'm not sure if this is their true purpose, but I know someone who is a CTA operator who I can ask.
can anyone asist me in obtaiing Face Sheets,,recent,,
Thank you
steve Lowenthal
the unlimited passes will no longer be taken to the booth to be fixed or transfered to another card.you will need to get a mailer at the booth or go to TA headquarters in brooklyn.so take care of them.get yourself a holder.and remember the clock is still running,while it goes through the mail system.I believe the post mark will stop the clock.but the sooner the better.really going to brooklyn is the best.
Some tips to save time at the booth:
1- never, never, never, etc fold or bend your card.
2- Please hand your card and money to the station agent
3- Please tell the agent how much you wish to add
4- When the caerd is getting old the agent will offer to transfer the money to a new card. Let them! when thew card gets old it causes headaches(swipe again messages)
5- swipe in one continusous motion. do not stop and do not lift the card out of the slot until the whiole card has cleared.
I happen to have a Reduced-Fare MetroCard. Can I use the 7- or 30-Day Unlimited-Ride [Reduced-Fare] MetroCard on any express bus by inserting the RFM into the farebox's MetroCard card reader, then add the difference in cash fare? For example, if I rode an express bus to Manhattan during the off-peak hours, could I swipe my RFM Unlimited-Ride pass first, then pay the remaining 75 cent differential in coins?
I am trying to find the answer. I have checked with several supervisors and I got no sure answer. When I get an answer I'll post.
Andr'es,
I found a TA document about Fraebox/Turnstile "Messages" it gives some insite about your question:
RFM actually is a time AND value card, so:
a. Express, peek AND value left = Value reduced by $3.00
b. Exp, peek BUT no value left = "Add coins" i.e. $3.00
c. Exp, off-peek AND value left = Value reduced by $1.50
d. Exp, off-peek BUT no val left = "Add coins" i.e. 1.50
e. Lcl to Exp, peek AND value left = Value redueced by $2.25
(.75 + 2.25 = 3.00)
f. Lcl to Exp, peek BUT no value = "Add coins" i.e. $2.25
g. Lcl to Exp, off-peek AND value left = Value reduced by $.75
h. Lcl to Exp, off-peek BUT no value = "Add coins" i.e. $.75
The above is similar to what happens for a 30 Unlim "local" card holder who wants to ride the Express, i.e. "Step Up" fare required.
Mr t__:^)
YES it's BEEN since the 1970's and present. I tried of seeing those LIRR's with the BLUE strips/yellow kinda like MY R-46's...
When will THE LIRR'S HAVE A NEW LOOK?
SINCE THE R46'S AND R68'S CAN RUN ON THE J,M,Z, AND L CAUSE LENGTH OF STATION'S CAN THE NEW R-110B RUN ON THIS LINE? THESE CARS ARE 67 FEET LONG. AS MY R46'S ARE 75 FEET LONG.
Can they? Aside from a possible weight issue, I would say they can.
Will they? I doubt it (they barely run as it is).
I have posted this query a few times before, but maybe you have the answer: Is there a cross-reference between OLD number (620,1083,975 etc.) R46 and NEW number R46 (5614, 6202, 5753, etc.) I thought at first that it was merely "new number = old number + 4982) but it's not! Examples: #6000 still shows the ghost of its old number on the end panel - #1150; #6059's old number was #831! The math dont add up.
Somewhere, someone MUST have this information - but who???
See ya down at Queens Pza!
Wayne
When the R-46s were overhauled, they were linked randomly. When they were re-numbered, that too was done randomly. A 4-car unit came in with the old numbers and left with the new. The cross-reference for each car is available on the TA Car Master file. There is also a cross reference somewhere in my files. Incidently, the R-44s were done in a like manner.
REMEMBER......THE R46'S WERE REBUILT IN 1989. THE ROUTE SIGNS ARE NOW COMPUTERIZED W/ YELLOW DISPLAY DIRECTION. THERE WERE SOME NEW CHANGES, YES SOME NEW NUMBERS.
ABOUT 13% OF THE 70'S R-46 WERE NOT REPLACE. THAT CAN EXPLAIN THE OLD NUMBERS. CHECK OUT THE A-LINES R-44. ALL HAVE NEW NUMBERS. ALL OF THESE TRAINS HAD TO BE REHAULED, THEY RAN VERY POORLY ON THE D LINE AND EVEN WHEN R-44'S RAN ON THE JFK (TAKE THE TRAIN TO THE PLANE) TRAIN.
Hold it! There were ALL new numbers, the cars were completely changed mechanically with the elimination of the P wire concept -move the handle up & down to SMEE-like handle that turns right to left. The signs were always computerised but didn't work properly. And what is this about 13% not replaced? Only two cars of the original order are not around any more. Finally the original R-44 ran poorly WHEREVER they were assigned: A D E or F lines.
Hi, Jack -
Methinks that Bill may be correct on this count (he helped me assemble
my latest scrap/wreck list) - only 1054 and 941 (old numbers) didn't make the cut. And I saw them both sitting in the yard off the Van Wyck Expressway - pulled over, got out of the car, went up to the fence, hailed a yardman who was passing by and asked specifically for the unit number. He responded "1054". (941 was in plain view). A most pathetic sight, 1054, her nose and cab sheared off (or cut off), half covered with a tarp, debris piled inside, and 941, her blind end stove in and a very noticeable buckling at the first door. Car floor looked bent, too. I would guess that fixing them would have been too much, they were both pretty banged up. Anyway, if you have any other R46 scrap numbers, please e-mail me. I'll e-mail you my scrap list (all fleets), if you'd like, just let me know where to send it.
Here's two R44 for you that got new numbers & are GONE - 5319 (fire)
and 5282 (pillars). 215 and 315 werent rebuilt, either; may be others.
Watchtheclosindoors,
Wayne
I may be wrong, but I believe these 2 R-46's were wrecked when a motorman who was relaying a train at 179 St. had a heart attack and died right there. Apparently when he passed out, he either fell against the controller, in effect bending down against and holding it in place with his chest or pushed it into the parrallel position as he was stricken. The bumper block stopped the train. As I operate the current cars and compare, say, an R42 to an R32; on an R42 a motorman can conceivably be stricken and have the weight of his body hold down the controller. That won't happen with an R32 because the controller is almost against the windshield.
Right again, Bill!
I think this incident happened sometime in 1986, but am not sure of the date. By the way if you have any stuff that I may be interested
in, you may drop it off at the address below. Once again, thanks for the information!
Wayne (WLWhitehorne@compuserve.com)
1054 - 941 Q.E.D.
The MTA web page is, not suprisingly, the least feedback-freindly of any governmental web page that I've come across. By comparison, the NYC and NYS pages offer the ability to e-mail officials and to register complaints.
The only feedback that you can leave is comments concerning the web site itself. The first few times I visited the site, I thought rider surfers could post comments and suggestions; but apparently that's not the case.
That's true. Although I find the schedules useful, the web site is deaf. And I'd wish they'd post their budget and reports, so those interested in public policy could see them.
It does, however, have one feature you may not have noticed -- contract and purchase solicitations on the Web. Since I worked in Logistics when I was there, I imagine that, if used properly, such a system could greatly improve purchasing efficiency. You might enjoy rummaging through the part catalog. I brings me back.
I just returned to Boston after a few days in NYC, and noticed in New Haven a bunch of PCRR/Amtrak Metroliner style self-powered electric cars as well as some coaches that resemble MBTA's Pullman (200 series) and Bombardier (300, 600, and 1600 series). They were marked "Connecicut Commuter Rail," or something like that. Where do these trains run? Where can I get more information regarding their history and operation?
Could be the "Shoreline East," a commuter service along the Amtrack line East of New Haven. It is a desperate, money losing (I think Rowland tried to kill it) response to the congestion on I95.
Connecticut is in one hell of a transportation pickle, one it truly deserves. A self-interested municipality (the Nutmeg state is divided into hundreds) will always try to get in commercial properties to fund premium public services without burdening local residents with taxes. And, it will always try to keep out poor/working -- even middle income homeowners, so the tax bases is shared among fewer people. The means is to use zoning to limit development to detached, single family homes on large lots, which only the affluent can afford.
Voila -- Fairfield County has the second highest per capita income in the United States (Manhattan is #1), and lots of headquarters moved up from Manhattan so the CEOs can drive there directly from the golf course. But where are the rest of the workers going to come from, especially when all you have is I 95?
Gridlock. People have to commute from the working to middle class class eastern section of the state, or down from the North. The state wanted to extend highway 7 as a limited access highway north to Danbury and I84, but that took it right though some pretty affluent areas, so it was defeated by nimby objections. People are commuting from southern Dutchess (NY) county, where detached houses on small lots and row houses were allowed, but they come down I684 and then across on -- I95. Connecticut can't expand I95 without buying out a zillion dollars in property, and fighting every rich lawyer on environmental grounds.
Swiss Bank/Union Bank of Switzerland is moving up to Stamford. A friend of my wife's said they planned a tour for middle management employees, to show them houses in the $250,000 to $350,000 range. They had to cancel the tour because they realtors had none to show.
Guess they'll have to move to New London CT and ride the Shore Line East, then connect to MetroNorth, then take a shuttle bus to work. That's the idea, anyway. Waterbury may also be a possibility.
Never should have shut down that Trolley? Would the state like to buy it back from the museum. Perhaps they can get Connecticut to pay for the reactivation of commuter service in the Amtrak ROW in the east Bronx. This way the peasants could live along Pelham Parkway and in Morris Park, and commute north, without even living in the state!
Every now and then, the always studied (because that gets votes from certain advocates and campaign contributions from paid consultants)never built freight connection comes up for discussion. Cost-sensitive people I know have another idea -- build a three-track rail bridge at the Tappan Zee to bring both freight and Rockland/Orange commuter trains to the city. The MTA studied a commuter train bridge, but decided it wasn't worth the money, but that seems not to apply to a freight connection. A rail bridge would cost a fraction of a single track rail tunnel, would have multiple uses, would not require trains to go half way into Brooklyn (to meet grade) and then turn around to get to the Waterfront, and could connect directly to both Norfolk-Southern and CSX. It could curve down to the tracks in the vicinity of the old Fisher Body plan in North Tarrytown.
I always run into a question I can't answer -- what is the clearance on the Hell Gate Bridge? Would it allow just for boxcars, for TOFC, or for double stacked containers? I can't walk up there to measure it. And if the clearance is low, is the steel above the tracks structural, or can it be raised?
And engineers of rail historians know the answer to this question?
Very early this morning, a 2-car Chicago, South Shore, & South Bend train slammed at 75 mph into a truck which had its rear of two trailers on the tracks. Apparently, the truck driver was waiting for a slow freight on a parallel track and didn't realize the passenger train was coming until it was too late. Of the 20 people on the train (it was about 4:30 am), 3 were killed when a steel coil from the truck trailer went through the front of the train.
All service on the South Shore line is suspended. Yes, that means a few ten thousands of people had no train service into Chicago at rush hour this morning. Passengers who can manage to get to Hegeswich (the first SS station in Illinois) will be bused to the nearest Metra Electric station for their ride into Chicago, and Metra will honor the South Shore tickets. Of course, the key there is those who can manage to get to Hegeswich, which is most of the way to Chicago.
Two things regarding this accident.
First, this accident reads almost exactly like the one that happened in Spring of 1974 on what was then the Reading Company’s West Trenton Branch. A two car, then brand new, GE Silverliner train hit a flat bed truck on the track’s near the Fairless Work’s at Woodbourne. The car number, 9024 (I think) had front half ripped open by a steel coil. The engineman, conductor and a passenger, who were in 9024, were killed instantly. The engineer "dumped" the air when he realized the impending tragedy, however, it was only second’s before impact. The brakeman, riding in the 2nd car, was shaken, but not injured . If I recall correctly, this trip was the last West Trenton to Reading Terminal (Philadelphia) trip of the day, the condition’s were foggy, and the collision occurred approximately 11 pm - read dark. The 9024 was eventually rebuilt and is still in service today, I believe.
Secondly, and unfortunately, it seems to me the South Shore has the worst record of train crashes in recent years. Is this my imagination, or do other’s concur?
the news tonight cited a similar South Shore Accident with a steel coil a few years ago. Was it three years ago they had the two car accident near the bridge? The right-of-way is old with quite a few grade crossings. Does anyone know how much of it is at grade?
Several thoughts--1 how lame to suspend service west of Gary because of an incident EAST of Gary--Gary is the terminal point of the majority of daily runs. 2 CSS&SB may or may not have a bad record but this one from what I gather is not their fault. 3 a tale from my maternal grandfather while we were eastbound to Michigan City some 40 years ago--some motorist ran around a stopped South Shore train as he was in a hurry planting himself directly in the path of the Michigan Central train on the next track. He did not live to repent or repeat--saddest of all this day the trucker lives the rail riders died.
David, the South Shore DOES NOT store equipment at Gary. I’m looking at a SS timetable at this moment and ALL rush hour trains except the last one, arriving at Randolph Street at 8:52 AM, originate at the Shop’s in Michigan City. The 7:57 AM from Gary is a "turn" of an early train arriving from Michigan City, #104 I think, to Chicago, and back out to Gary to make up the Gary run.
Thus, with all their equipment located east of the wreck and the doomed train being the first trip out, the South Shore COULD NOT provide any service.
It has been a bad year so far for the commuter’s on the South Shore. Earlier this year, March 9th, the line was out of service for the better part of a week due to snow and ice.
In Friday’s Chicago Tribune, the driver of the tandem that was blocking the track’s is looked at for a number of driving violation’s, both past and on the day of the wreck - yesterday!
Showing my age again! I of course have not fully grokked the newer pattern. Even though I have seen the new Gary station, I tend to think of the old station with the two terminal tracks and the yard just to the west. Mea culpa.
I vaguely recall that prior to 1960 (approximately), there was a trolley tunnel along Brooklyn's Church Av. It ran from E. 5th to E. 7th Sts, passing under Ocean Pkwy. It has since been sealed and there is no visible sign of it. Does anyone else out there remember this? I would particularly like to know when it was closed.
Bob Sklar
My father-in-law is from Flatbush, and he told me about the Trolley Tunnel also. It seems to have been filled in, but it was there. I asked why it wasn't kept for cars and buses, and he thought it was too tight.
At one time, it seems, lots of underpasses were built. There was the one at Park Avenue, and another one under Atlantic Avenue in East New York. We sure could use some more of that kind of investment today.
There definitely was an underpass of Ocean Parkway for the Chuech Avenue Trolley. Since this was a PCC Route and one of the last to go, photographs are quite common. I have several in my collection. I suspect that the tunnel went when the Church Ave PCC did. Let me try to find its termination date for you.
Page 83 of "Brooklyn Trolleys" by Greller and Watson has an excellent photograph. You will note that the roadway was never paved, the rail being on exposed wooden ties, and the devil strip is quite narrow, with entire tunnel jogged over towards south curb of Church. October 31, 1956 is given as the date of route abandonment.
The caption reads, " When the trolleys are abandoned, this underpass will be sealed; but the rails are used by the Shore Line Trolley Museum and to this day carry trolleys."
Some nice pictures...
Thanks Dave
One of these days I'm going to get me a scanner.
Dave
Dumb Question No 1
I that a commercially available CDROM or a personal project?
question No 2
Will we see more of this CDROM on NYCSubwayResources
It's a personal project. It's not even really a cdrom yet. That's just where I've been storing everything up until the point where I burn it.
(I dont' have a burner yet.)
So far I plan 2 cd-roms. 1 of NY-area trolleys (TARS, Brooklyn, Queens - about 1,000 images), and 1 of subway photos (most of which are online here already).
When they're ready there will certainly be an announcement. I anticipate them being $20 or $25 each including shipping. Each will have "web" pages that you can use to browse the images in your own web browser direct from the CD. I'm debating producing a booklet of thumbnail images to go along with them. Proceeds will be used to offset my personal costs in keeping the web site online (ISP costs, hardware, and the like.)
If you want to mail me directly i'll add you to my list of interested parties.
-Dave
Dave!
Please add my name for both.
I cry in my sleep when I realize that I was right in the middle of all the trolley and el action and never took a picture.
Marty
Thanks for the pictures, Dave. Brings back some memories.
It was, the fall of 1953. Our Cub Scout troop was going on an outing the the Rodeo at Madison Square Garden (not the building on top of Penn Station, but the one at 49th St. and 8th Ave.) We went in the parent-escort cars to the F train station at Church and MacDonald Aves. (now the Culver line, but in those days, the Culver line was still part of the BMT, operating to Chambers St. via the 4th Ave. subway). I remember clearly the trolley tunnel under Ocean Parkway, and the "Grand Junction" at Church and MacDonald Aves.
As we entered the subway, I was clutching shiny new "tokens" (and they were new, the fare had been raised from 10 to 15 cents only a few months earlier). We boarded the F train. I was surprised (amazed?) that we actually went elevated for a short stretch around Smith-9th station (until that time, I thought that the IND was entirely underground). We transferred (I believe at Broadway-Lafayette, across platform) to the E train, which took us to 50th St. station, right at the entrance to "The Garden."
As I remember it (not always reliable), the fares went from 10 cents to 13 cents, and then to 15 cents. Can anybody corroborate this?
Fare increase history, NYC Subways:
5 to 10 cents - July 1, 1948
10 to 15 cents - July 25, 1953
15 to 20 cents - July 4, 1966
20 to 30 cents - January 4, 1970
30 to 35 cents - January 1972 (not sure of exact day)
35 to 50 cents - September 1, 1975
50 to 60 cents - June 28, 1980
60 to 75 cents - July 5, 1981
75 to 90 cents - January 1984
90 cents to $1.00 - January 1986
The rest you probably remember since it's more recent.
I seem to recall the subway fare going to 35 cents in 1971.
Your memory of a fare differential is off just a bit. The 1948 fare increase was from a nickel to ten cents on subway and el lines. On bus, trolley, and trolley coach lines, the fare went to seven cents. There was also a combined surface/rapid transit fare of twelve cents, which lasted until around 1950 or so.(I don't remember the exact year
--discontinuing the combined fare was supposed to be a way of increasing revenue.)
I used to buy transfers from the machines on the McDonald Avenue PCCs and transfer to the Culver at Kings Highway. (The transfer was supposed to be to/from the Kings Highway bus, but no one ever seemed to check the transfers and except for the IND Church Avenue, that streetcar didn't intersect with any rapid transit line except the Culver.)
Ed Alfonsin/SUNY at Potsdam
> I remember clearly the trolley tunnel under Ocean Parkway, and the "Grand Junction" at Church and MacDonald Aves.<
Your statement above interests me. I think all too often we forget that things change with time. I left Brooklyn in the early 1950's (although my family remained for an additional 10 years or so). All the photos in my collection show the intersection of Church and MacDonald only as a double track connection in the south-east quadrant.
I believe Church was the last trolley line in Brooklyn. Statements that I read, saying that the Ninth Ave Depot served all of Brooklyn's PCCs, trouble me when I think of this limited access intersection for Church Ave Cars. I think there was a loop on MacDonald at 16th which would have allowed turning Singled ended PCCs from the "Bristol St Loop" terminal to reverse and head to the Ninth Ave Depot. I could never fiqure out how cars from(or to) the "First Ave" terminal made the journey without going first to Bristol and then to the MacDonald/16 loop.
Although I've never seen evidence of one, a "Grand Union" (or at least 3/4th of one) would make sense at Church/MacDonald. wontinVat
That catenary/trolley wire support bridge reminds me of the CNS&M,
(North Shore) bridges, although this Brooklyn usage probably predates
the mid west lines usage.
> although this Brooklyn usage probably predates
the mid west lines usage.<
Interesting thought. I wonder which did come first.
Did you notice that Dave's photos document both sides of the underpass (1035=East, 1016,1021,&1054= West) and the overhead structure varies on each side. I've looked at many photos of this tunnel and have never seen one that shows more than 1 catenary on the east side. Is it because the steepness of the grades varied considerably on each side?
Just want to mention that they aren't "my" photographs in the sense of being the photographer. They're from my collection. I don't know who took them or the dates...
Understood Dave. All of my New York City photos have benn purchased. I always wondered how this would effect my scanning them for access by others.
I suppose giving credit to "the collection of Marty xxxx" should be sufficient. I see that all the time in books. Why would scanning be treated any differently?
--Mark
Judging by the cars in the background, I'd say that the pictures must date from relatively close to the tunnel's closing in 1956.
Thanks, Dave. Those pictures are most illuminating.
Bob Sklar
Bob
Make sure you access the Web Master's Response to My picture comment. IT'S A MUST- he has linked 4 great shots into his post.
I read the entire exchange. Very interestring!
Yes, the underpass was closed after October 31, 1956 when the #35 Church Avenue PCCs, one of the two remaining Brooklyn trolley routes, were replaced by buses.
I believe that the underpass was never opened to vehicluar traffic because:
(1) It was too narrow
(2) It was too steep
(3) The intersection of Church Ave. and Ocean Parkway was rebuilt a few years later for the Prospect Expressway, which merges into Ocean Parkway at that location.
I printed out Dave's photos the last night to show to a friencd of mine who is a "Church Ave Native". He told me that Church Ave has been divided into Eastbound and Westbound roadways between 4th and 8th.
We got to talking about how the photos of the passageway always seemed to be cluttered with litter. His comments were that he remembered the area as being fairly clean, but that no one ever leaned the trolley tunnels until it snowed in the winter, when the snowsweepers would come through.
He also said it was an interesting place right after a summer thunderstorm . He doesn't remember the overhead ever going under water, but he claims it came close several times.
1. What are the largest subway systems in North America. Say, the 15 largest in track miles.
2. What are the largest metro areas in North America with no subway system to speak of? Say, the top 12. Is Indianapolis among them?
3. Is there a major North American city without a subway that is planning to start one from the ground up? (so to speak)
What North American cities most recently broke first ground for a new subway? (Washington?) How about the 6-8 most recent.
4. How extensive is the subway in Mexico City?
What about the Caribbean? Havanna is a big city; is there a subway?
5. Any thoughts about which North American metro area could most use a subway. Among those that don't already have something.
Any stats for Metro Area Population divided by subway track miles???
Need this for top 20 world cities.
Any answers to your question depends on what you mean by subway. The answers change if you mean literally underground railway, as opposed to rapid transit (which includes els but not light rail), as opposed to any rail transit (which includes light rail).
For example, Miami has a substantial Metrorail rapid transit line, which feeds passengers into an extensive downtown Metromover people-mover system. However, due to the height of the water table in Miami, not a single inch of the system is underground. And, of course, Chicago has very few miles of subway proper as part of its very extensive L system.
As to (2), this is not a complete list, of course, but two cities without any rail transit that leap out at me off the top of my head are Minneapolis-St. Paul and Houston.
As to (3), the big thing nowadays in U.S. cities is light rail. Many light rail plans include subway tunnels where either topography or the nature of the neighborhood demands it, but most of the mileage of most of the systems recently built, or being built or planned, is above-ground.
4) I don't know about Havana, but in the Caribbean, San Juan, Puerto Rico, is building a rapid transit system, Tren Urbano (Urban Train), which is mostly elevated and has only a small underground portion through an historic district.
Thanks for your help.
I was refering to Rapid Transit, including El's but not including light rail.
By the way, do you have a good definition of "Light Rail"?
By rapid transit I mean a system which links a continuous matrix of urban neighborhoods, rather than a shuttle between the burbs and downtown. Although occasionally rapid transit outposts extend like bridges into what seems to be unrelated suburbs.
It's not the best definition, so any information that includes Asterixes, and parentheses are warented.
Thanks again.
Rappid transit and light rail are getting harder to differentiate.
Rappid is usually high platform and third rail.
Light rail is normally overhead wire and can operate non-segregated right of way (STreet running, transit malls etc.)
San Franciso MUNI uses high platform cars in the subway and on exclusive right of way in trains. But then the cars de-couple and operate as single streetcars with steps to the street.
Toronto Streetcars are clearly that, streetcars. The NYC subway is clearly rappid transit. The rest is somewhere in between.
Clear as mud, right?
Chris:
As John points out the answers to your qyuestions depend upon definition.
I hope you realize that this is not a 10 minute task
There is a website "http://www.lrta.org" for the Light Rai Transit Association, an organization based in England that is developing a
" World System List" that will give you an idea as to how common subways are. Unfortunately there remains a lot to be done to complete this list but it's worth a peak.
Remember its in "British" so you have to look for the term "METRO" system. Good luck.
I'm retired and not really desirous of undertaking the necessary work involved. Hope you don't need the answers for tomorrows final exam.
\
Oops!
That's peek for look, and not peak for mountain.
And I keep forgetting that not only is the "y" in qyuestion, silent, it should also be invisible.
To (partially) answer your second question, there are many large U.S. cities without any sort of rail transit. By that I'm including subways, other heavy rail, light rail, and commuter trains. Some of the bigger transit-less cities which I can think of are:
Houston; Detroit (there's some sort of downtown trolley, which I don't believe is really transit-oriented); Minneapolis; Charlotte; Columbus; Seattle (commuter rail has been proposed, AFAIK no actual construction yet); Indianapolis; Cincinnati (a subway was begun decades ago, but never completed); San Antonio; Phoenix; Orlando (not counting the Disney monorail); Kansas City; Honolulu; Tucson; Memphis; Oklahoma City; Birmingham; Nashville; Las Vegas; Norfolk; Austin; Tulsa; Jacksonville (there was an elevated line built, but AFAIK it's been discontinued); Raleigh; Richmond; Louisville; Milwaukee; and Tampa.
Some data I have been collecting for my own interest bears on the question. I got a list of transportation data agencies from the census bureau, and have been calling to find out (based on 1990 census data, journey to work file) how many people worked in the central business district, and what the modal split is on journey to work. I have found that many of my fellow civil servants do not answer the phone and do not call back, but I have made some headway.
New York City = Manhattan CBD 1,800,000 employed, only 15 percent auto. In a class by itself. It dropped in the early 1990s, but is probably back where it was.
Several cities between 250,000 and 515,000, with about 50 percent auto and extensive transit ridership: Chicago (515,000), Toronto, San Francisco, Boston, and Philadelphia (250,000). They all have 40 to 50 percent transit ridership. These are cities with "real downtowns." Downtown Brooklyn has about 120,000, if you include Fulton Ferry and the Navy Yard. Auto transit is about 50-50 there as well.
Other cities? Less than 200,000 people, over 75 percent auto. Cleveland had 175,000 downtown (75 percent auto), Detroit about 86,000 (also 75 percent auto). Dallas had only 100,000 downtown, and an 85 percent auto modal split. Denver is about 107,000 -- I'm waiting for the modal split. Houston lost the CD-ROM (they're still looking).
What other cities might be significant, both in size and non-auto travel? I want to try Washington, Los Angeles (yes downtown is a small share of the region but its a big region), Atlanta and Miami. If there's interest I'll keep you posted.
What does this mean? Mass transit requires a mass -- a central business district destination that lots of people are going to. Outside the Manhanttan CBD, auto travel to work is pretty high in NYC -- despite the extensive transit system. And you can't get enough people together for a vibrant downtown without mass transit. Autos need too much land for movement and parking. Transit and a real downtown go together.
The other thing is, if you want to live in a city where you can walk/use transit and live/work in a vibrant downtown, there are very few choices left. Perhaps one of the Sunbelt cities can grow into that category, but the way things are going perhaps Philly will fall out of it. There is no data for Downtown Philly post-1990, but the city as a whole as lost 12 percent of its jobs since then, with job losses right through 1997. The strike won't help, either.
Re: Jacksonville elevated line closure.
The Jacksonville, FL transit authority website, www.jtaonthemove.com indicates their "skyway" is up and running, on the weekdays at least. They have converted and expanded it from a first generation automated peoplemover by the French firm "Matra" to a fourth generation monorail by the Canadian company Bombardier. Go to their website for details!
A reminder I posted a few weeks ago, this Saturday June 20 NYCT Transit Museum will be having their annual Bus Festival . Located at Schermerhorn & Tillary Streets. Downtown Brooklyn. Also,on August 1, the New York Division of the NY Chapter of the Electric Railroaders Assn. will be having an 1100 car trip along all third rail electrified lines of Metro-.North. 10 A.M. at Grand Central. Tickets are $45.00. Get them in advance as you probably can't purchase them on the day of the trip. Contact them at P.O. Box 3001 New York 10008.
Bill, do you know the time that the buses will be on display???
The buses will be on display 10 A.M. to 4 P.M. An addendum to the 1100 trip: Please send them a return envelope, but if you forget I doubt if they'll "out" you. Their phone number for more information is : (718)-728-1156. Call M-F from 8 to 11 P.M.
Here's a URL for the New York Division-Electric Railroaders' Association home page. You'll find information about this trip and an application.
http://members.aol.com/rob110178/era/home.html
We need at least 152 people on the train to operate the trip, so sign on!
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association
What about for the month of July? Is anything happening as far as the NYC subways?
To Busbuffs,
I would like to know if NYCT will be displaying MCI bus #1861 at the Annual Bus Festival on Saturday, June 20th or not. Please post any information.
Thank you,
Mike
I have been working hard to get District 10 to help me get the Bronx President to get the NYCTA to consider the plan I am almost done with getting the district on my side. If I get it I will put the R-151B which is the same model as the origianl R-151 model (look for that section) just one less door. Wish me luck.
On many trips through the NEC area I've marvelled about the amazing amount of infrastructure that is there. Being from the Phila. area, I am naturally most amazed by the 30th st/Zoo/surburban station area, but there are a lot of other interesting areas.
Questions:
- Zoo interlocking is being slowly modified. About 3 years ago, DVARP wrote up an interesting article about this. Does anyone know if Amtrak is still working to modify it according to those plans, or if their plans have changed - and if so, how?
This question is motivated in part by the fact that sometime recently Amtrak decided to clean out the junk from one of the connectors there. I'm thinking of the connector that begins adjacent to the eastward-bound tracks from Paoli and Trenton, goes under, and appears to be headed for a connection with
the tracks SOUTH of 30th street, bypassing the
station completely. Is amtrak going to use this
someday or did they just decide to spring clean?
-I still wonder about the four track main line west of Philly. With freight gone east of Coatsville (any chance it may return thanks to NS or CSX?) does amtrak really need
to keep all four tracks going east of Paoli? I would think that one of the inner tracks could be removed from revenue storage. Don't rip it up maybe, keep it for maintainance equip storage and if it is in place, it would be a lot easier to bring it back into service should the need arise. 'Course this would require
signalling work. How long would the payback take forthis type of signalling work if they could stop maintaining one of the tracks?
-Does anyone know of track maps available for the terminal areas of the NEC? (My question is inspired by the way-cool maps available here
for the nyc subway). Trackmaps of Zoo, Penn
Station, things like that would be very very cool...
Thanks
David McCabe
Does anybody know if the Chambers Street BMT station is scheduled for renovation any time soon? It is in terrible condition-water leaks everywhere, falling tiles, peeling paint - decrepit! They did such a nice job with Fulton and Broad Streets, do they plan anything similar at Chambers? I have ideas - restore tile to original, replace the halophane fixtures with new ones - (they DO make em, they hang in every Home Depot and Edwards), tear down the ugly 1962 wall, make the station look like it first did - and FIX THE LEAKS! Don't forget to restore the closed platform area, too, at least the walls.
Also - across town - Chambers-WTC IND - have they put up the new tile on the "A" side yet? Last I saw, they were sitting on skids on the platform. Feb 7 they impeded police who were chasing a perp, so I overheard one officer telling another. Progress is a good thing, but I'm gonna miss that really UGHLY shade of plum, unique in the system.
Wayne
Wayne- Sorry to disappoint you. The new tile band is the same color.
S o r r y
Part of the restoration problems at the Chambers J/M/Z station will have to wait until the renovations at Foley Square are completed. Part of the problem in the station is that the overhead portions are rusting out, e.g., the staircase leading into the Federal Courthouse at 40 Foley Square, which overlies the mezzanine, is structurally deficient. Also, there is a matter of security for the Courthouse, since parts of the station directly underly the building and there is direct access to the basement areas from the mezzanine level. I don't know if there are any plans at all to renovate the station, but these issues will have to be addressed before the station can be fully renovated.
--mhg
Mark -
Did not see it on the MTA's capital projects list (in the MTA's website). Would a temporary fix be to seal the station's ceiling with
the same stuff they use for swimming pools? At least this would keep the water out. Come to think of it, was there on Oct 31 1997, a perfectly clear, dry day, and I saw water coming down onto the unused center platform, so methinks that some of the leaks are from some pipes above.
Maybe those of us who are somewhat appalled at this station's condition can draw up a suggestions list as to what, if any, renovations ABOVE and BEYOND structural could be provided for.
One part of the station that needs immediate attention, though, is
on the northbound platform side: where there's a closed stairway going up and three doors in a wall below it (the unused platform) - that entire area looks like the ceiling's powdering away! Definitely not a good thing. I have photo depicting this.
Wayne Whitehorne
I'm not surprised that the MTA doesn't have this station on their list of things to do. It doesn't exactly pack people in, I'm afraid. But that's another story . . .
I don't know about emergency repairs using sealant on the ceiling of the station. I think that a problem is always going to be: "where does the water go?" If it can't drip down the ceiling, will it run down the walls? Undermine the platforms? Etc. Although I'm no expert, I think that simply applying sealant does little good, unless some means of channeling the water into a drainage system is also built. FWIW, I think anything but emergency repairs would be throwing good money away, at least until after the street-level repairs are done.
--mhg
--mhg
Wellll --- it's CLOSE. The old was Plum with Prune border
(Only Fordham Road on Concourse line had plum in the band - the border) The new is plain Grape (yep, Concord) with Black border. There's a little indentation in the panel on the new for the lettering, which, being 8 tiles wide (I took a good look & a picture) should read "Chambers". Now, let's hope they didn't repeat the mistake they made at Canal (putting the title on Every Panel - wrong font, too - visually awful! - I'm an IND purist).
I have taken a few pictures of the "old" for posterity.
I have a file "colors.ind" that lists ALL IND tile bands, grouped by
color family (red,yellow,green,blue,purple) with shade details, if you are interested I will send it to you.
I will be "on the road" tomorrow, to photograph tiles up and down the
7th Avenue line, Chambers to 110th-Cathedral Parkway, leaving Babylon
at 9AM, returning 5:30pm. I will try and pass thru H&M (that's what the old wall tiles said!) somewhere along the way.
PS (so they say) Scanner's coming SUNDAY, FedEx. They screwed up the order out there. I have a backlog, needless to say.
Have a nice nite
Wayne
Here's an item from the wire yesterday...
NJ Governor Christie Whitman, who is chairing the Amtrak reform council, has written Congress asking that the council's budget be increased from 50-thousand dollars to almost 1.9 million dollars. That money, she says, is needed for the council to do its work and includes several 425-dollar-an-hour consultants.
First off, that would be an increase of 3800 percent for a bunch of bureaucrats to figure out how to make Amtrak more efficient. Second, aren't there enough reports out there already? What are these overpriced consultants going to do that hasn't been done already?
With a committee like this, who needs Congress to shut Amtrak down?
Michael
Have you noticed that the MTA plans to pay consultants $1 million to study peak hour pricing on tolls, and $16 million to study MetroNorth service to Penn? Have you noticed the even more expensive study of direct rail service to LaGuardia?
In the Power Broker, it was noted that consulting contracts was one of the ways Robert Moses distributed patronage. But he also built things. Now all we have is the patronage.
LL: Given your knowledge of both The Dismal Science and transportation, I bet you'd do the work cheaper, and I hereby nominate you.
I'd do their studies for a few thousand. After all, anything I don't already know I can find out from SubTalk. Then again, I don't make campaign contributions.
More on consultants. Back in 1984, I got my first non-paper-hat job in the economics section of the Port Authority of NY and NJ. Some years later, I wanted employment data for every industry for every county in the region in some detail. The Port Authority had been collecting it, so I called one of my buddies there and had them send it to me on disk.
Some time later, after the Mayor pointed out that NJ was using the PA to rip off NYC, the PA decided to wipe out the economic unit to save money. Some time after that, I got a call from a consultant who wanted employment data for every industry for every county in the region in some detail. So I sent him a disk. It turns out that the consultant had a contract from Port Authority, and WAS SELLING THEIR OWN DATA BACK TO THEM FOR BIG BUCKS! AND HE HAD NO IDEA WHERE IT CAME FROM OR WHAT IT MEANT!
Some time ago, the TA commissioned a consultant study of subway riders. I remember one of the big findings was that Brooklyn was a "hotbed" of subway ridership, accounting for one-third of the riders. Well if you exclude Staten Island, which doesn't have a subway, Brooklyn accounts for one-third of city residents!
I could go on and on.
Technically I'm a consultant these days (mainly a writer for a human resources consulting firm). So I'm always hearing complaints about high-falutin' consultants who do nothing and get paid ridiculous amounts of money. I have to admit some of them are on target.
My firm works almost exclusively for non-governmental organizations (mainly huge corporations), which do sometimes spend big bucks on consultants, but generally don't do so based on our political campaign contributions (I don't think we make any)
We also tend to produce something, say, 20,000 glossy employee recruiting brochures, for the money.
When we do study something, it tends to be something arcane and internal, like employee attitudes about telecommuting within a single corporate division.
I think one thing that angers people about many transit studies is that, as in your example, the information has been collected many times already by both professionals and amateurs. Heck, lots of it appears anecdotally on this very bulletin board!
Consultants are great if you know what you want to do but don't have the staff to do it. It's a great way to buy temporaty help.
The problem is often that the one hiring the consultand does not know what they want done and then things begin to go down hill.
Another problem with the current world is that planning requirements for transit have been created to make it impossible to build things. The rules by design have created check-mate.
Creative cities like St. Louis have been able to get arround them but it was slow and difficult to do in most places, especially for new projects.
Amen.
But just bear in mind that lawyers and consultants lobbied for, and lobby against removal of, rule which require years of delay and the hiring of lawyers and consultants.
well said
Consultant: One who tells you (for a hefty fee) what you know already.
Or: Someone who is more than 50 miles from home and is thus an expert.
OK, all you consultant-bashers out there, riddle me this:
If it's so inconceivable that an outsider could see things that management can't ... or doesn't want to ... or has forgotten how to ...
Why do all of us on this bulletin board have so many good ideas about how to run the subway?
Of course, we give our ideas away for free ... maybe we shouldn't :-)
Sometimes you need a consultant. Unfortunately, government agencies sometimes hire consultants as a reflex (because that's what corporations do) without knowing what they want or whey they want it. Or, there is one part of a project the agency can't do, but it hires out the entire project to a consultant, who they gets most of its information from the agency and sells it back. Of some other agency has the information, but agencies don't coordinate, so they hire consultants.
They were not bashing. Consultants do very good work. But Larry is right they cannot make decisions for an agency or make up their mind. At some time the agency must make some choices.
Consultants may help frame issues and bring new ideas. Being from outside of the agency (over 50 miles) they can be frank and say things that staff can't, because the consultant gets to leave but the staff has to reamain.
Government agencies usually do not hire consultants to be frank. They hire consultants to tell them that what they want to do is actually the right idea, and make it seem to be based on fact rather than fancy. Want proof? Read some of the dualing consultant reports issued by different political actors on the same subject.
Of course, some times agencies hire consultants because they get money to do it.
And sometimes they hire consultants to because a "study" wins them political points with one set of people, whereas actually doing something loses votes from another set of people. Lots of consultants have made money on the 42nd St trolley for that reason.
Few government agencies are sufficiently competent to get value from a consultant.
In today's Newsday, there is an article about the opening of the latest stretch of the HOV lanes on the LIE. They have added 8 additional miles into Nassau county. They also state how the lanes to date have been a complete failure.
Since few people are using the HOV lanes, maybe now is the time to grab the ROW from the HOV and give it to the LIRR as it should have been done originally. Of course it needs to be extended into Queens, but it's a thought. Any comments ?
The HOV lanes might be good for buses in the next LIRR strike (when is it scheduled for?) HOV lanes don't work because people won't carpool because they do not travel at the same time every day.
I once wrote up a business plan for a "dynamic carpooling club." Drivers and riders would dial in to a computer with their origin and destination zip codes and their travel time, and the computer would match them and put them into a conference call to arrange each trip. That way, you wouldn't have to travel with the same people or at the same time each day. The riders would pay $2.00 each to the driver and 50 cents to the club for arranging the match.
I have yet to find anyone who thinks it could be a workable idea.
Running a rail transit line along the median of a highway has been done in some places. Whether it would be a worthwhile idea on Long Island is another matter. The LIE (roughly) parallels the LIRR's main line through Hickville and Ronkonkoma, and for the most part isn't more than a couple of miles away. Without doubt, the main line trains are severely overcrowded - a fact well known to anyone who's taken a rush hour Ronkonkoma train! But that situation *hopefully* will improve once the bilevel coaches and dual-mode locomotives are in operation on the Port Jefferson and Montauk lines. If and when that happens, there would be little point in spending what undoubtedly would be a fortune to convert the HOV lanes to rail.
BUT, this idea AND others needs to be considered before the DOT wasts anymore money on highway improvemts that aren't going to be used.
This group is going to say divert those dollars to mass transit, but politically is it going to happen, not likely.
The problem with higway spending (vs. HOV) is that as soon as they improve the system so it can handle more traffic, the more traffic comes along & you've got congestion with more cars.
More mass transit is obviously the right answer for the tri-state area, so how can WE help solve the political/general public problem ?
One point for those commuters from Suffolk county who have to buy a car every 3 years, make them an offer they can't refuse. I used to actually enjoy my ride on the LIRR/TA, except for the length of the trip. In the summer my son & I car pooled. The trip wasn't too bad & the time was a little quicker. Do people get hooked on those short trips, so they endure the bumper-to-bumper the rest of the time ?
So why is it that so many people just must drive in ???? Cheeper trips across the bridges wo'nt help one bit ! Easy-Pass just saves the TBTA staff cost, it certainly doesn't shorten the trip.
Mr t__:^)
HOV lanes may encourage more express bus service from Long Island to NYC at the expense of LIRR ridership. This is what happened to the subway when extensive express bus service started from the outer boroughs to Manhattan in the 70's and 80's and cut into the Subways monopoly. The LIRR gets passengers to the west side of Manhattan at Penn Station, Busses could provide one seat service to the east side and lower Manhattan. With the HOV lane they may be able to beat the LIRR times because they could avoid the unbelievable congestion of the regular LIE lanes. I know the LIRR is working on East side access, but they were working on it when I lived in NY in the 70's and I want to live long enough to see it. I figure I will have to live to at least 100 by the time the MTA gets its act together.
Do Tunnels have exhaust fans??
You always hear stories of how hot the tunnels are. Now that all cars have AC, it would only make the tunnels hotter.
Do the fans exist, and if so, are they used on a regular basis?
Thanks...
Some do. The river tunnels have exhaust fans, e.g. in a building on Joraloman (sp?) Street in Brooklyn. Also, the 63rd St. tunnel has them too, (there is a ventilation tower at 63rd and 2nd) and if I remember right, they had to be replaced because they were made from a metal that was too soft and might melt during a fire. Finally, I recall reading about some Snafu concerning the coordination of ventilation fans. The problem was that they need to pull smoke out of the tunnels without feeding oxygen to a fire. I don't recall details. Hope this helps.
--mhg
Anybody want to take a gander at the worst maintained stations???
I was at the Bowery Station on the M and J line the other day and it was a disaster. Ages of water damage, putrid smells and overrun with rats. I waited 25minutes for the train and considerd walking in the rain rather than standing there another minute.
Other bad stations that come to mind are 2nd avenue and Broadway/Laff on the F line. And Canal street on the N/R line.
I thought there was a $$$ Surplus.
Also: When you see a sign for Rodenticide posted in a train station, does that mean that Rat Poison is blowing around in the air everytime a train passes???????????????????
Bowery station indeed must be near the bottom of any station-quality list. What's really mystifying is why it's still kept open. Another wretched station, though for a different reason, is 72nd Street on the 1/2/3/9. Access to each island platform is provided by two narrow stairways, which as you can imagine leads to long delays especially at rush hour. There are plans for easing this mess, but they're a long way off.
As far as I know, the rat poison used in stations is in the form of pellets that the rats eat. There shouldn't be anything airborne.
The Bowery station I would not classify as one of the worst. I feel that it should be under the "dormant" category. Besides the few riders that enter and leave, the only sounds you may hear is the gush of wind along from a passing train. If I was on street level at the Bowery station late at night, I would skip it and walk over to Canal St. At least over at Canal St there are some more forms of life there.
-GarfieldA
The 72nd St. station on the 1/2/3/9 is cramped and crowded, yes, but you have to give it some points for the historic entry building at street level.
I hope they're not going to alter that part when it's renovated.
As well, the 72nd Street platforms are very narrow; as a transfer point between local and express, it sees many passengers who never use the staircases. The rehab plans, as reported in the NYT a few weeks ago, won't fix this. (Incidentally, the plans call for lengthening the platforms. How will this be done? Currently the platforms themselves are tapered; by the end of the platforms there's no room between the local and express tracks for more platform.)
Add the Chambers St. station on the J,M,Z line. PURE DILAPIDATED. !!!
There's a reason - read the post in response to "Chambers St-BMT/IND"
You're abstitively 150 percent right about that one! Chambers Street is SO BAD it would take an army straighten it out.
FYI - Broadway/Lafayette station renovation is complete, check out the new mezzanine. Only complaint is they replaced the pretty powder blue tiles with a mundane shade of royal blue.
Others worthy of mention - in terms of condition/lack of aesthetics:
Tremont Ave, Concourse line: tiles falling down (MTA has a fix on its list of capital projects)
Pelham Parkway, Dyre Ave.: Plain UGLY, nothing can be done bout it
Canal Street, J/M/Z: see Bowery and Chambers St
Lexington-53rd St - ugly wall, peeling paint
Park Place (IRT 7th Ave): Grime, grime and more grime
I could list more but let's hear from the world on this one.
Another bad station in terms of odor is the Lex Ave. on the N/R line. Has anyone ever smell that awful odor right next to the escalator going up to the 6 local downtown train. It smells so badI can't explain it.
ITS TRUE.....WHY ALL OTHER LINES GET NEW CARS TESTED ON THEM EXCEPT THE J LINE.
IN MANHATTAN CHAMBERS STREET STATION IS TERRIBLE TO LOOK AT. IT MAKES ME PUKE. RUSH HRS.....THESE DAMM R-40B AND R42 ARE CROWDED AND THE DAMM AIR CONDITIONER BLOWS IN LOW QUAILITY.
I SAY CUT THE WHOLE DAMM EL AND UNDERGROUND THE LINE WITH EXPRESS STATIONS.
Groovy, Let's do it!
I wouldn't say that the J/Z line gets no respect. The line is NOT really a busy one. The times that it gets it's bulk of passengers is during rush hours when most other lines get theirs as well. When passenger subway car alarms where being tested, it was done on the J/Z line. Unfortunately this idea was not a good and was scrapped. The best thing to happen on that line was the introduction of skip-stop and it's connection with the "E". New cars being tested upon for the line; who cares!. I think that the cars that run on the J line are one of the best in the system. A/C throughput is the best. You just probably had a motorman that was having a bad day.
- Garfield
The J line is unique because it is a one train history lesson of New York's rapid transi routes. It's one of my alll time favorites. On a single trip from Parsons/Archer to Broad Street, you can see:
(1) One of newest subway tunnels (1988 Archer Avenue line)
(2) The 1917 dual contracts BMT el from Cypress Hills to 121st Street, a good example of later style elevated construction.
(3) The oldest unrebuilt, 19th century el route in New York (the 1893 route along Fulton Street from Crescent Street to East New York.
(4) New York's greatest remaining elevated train concentration - the East New York complex.
(5) The original Brooklyn BRT el routes along Broadway (first used in 1885 and 1888; and rebuilt as part of the Dual Contracts).
(6) The old tower at Marcy Avenue that controlled the interlocking between the Williamsburgh Bridge route and the original Broadway Ferry route.
(7) The route across the Williamsburgh Bridge, with its great sweeping curved approach. It's especially good on a clear winter morning with the sun at your back.
(8) The unusual Essex Street station with the old trolley loops still clearly visible on the south side.
(9) The last Dual Contracts subway built in New York (along with 14th Street/8th Avenue on the L) - the Fulton and Broad Street stations on the Nassau Street subway.
I know that the Chambers Street station is a mess - but the remaining portions of the J make up for it.
Nonetheless, aside from a few short segments, most of the line was built more than 80 years ago. My house was built about the same time. It had gas lights. Needless to say, it has been rebuilt somewhat since then. More so than the Broadway Line.
I rode the J out to Jamaica, then the E back to 74th/Roosevelt, on my way to Shea Stadium recently. Imagine its the future -- the year 2050, and that section of Brooklyn is something better than an area where 40 percent of the adults are on the dole. Will they be riding that train. I can imagine much of the subway improved in a way that makes it fit for the future. A more dynamic city would probably replace the J, the way the trolleys replaced the horsecars.
By the way, my J stopped at Marcy and held for a long time while the motorman talked on the radio to see if he should go local or express. Then it ran express to Myrtle, then local to Broadway Junction -- where it was caught by a J that ran express all the way, terminated, and headed for the yard. My J crawled through the S curve onto Jamaica. What is the service pattern on that thing anyway?
[Imagine its the future -- the year 2050, and that section of Brooklyn is something better than an area where 40 percent of the adults are on the dole.]
You may have hit on the real reason for the J line's neglect. Most of the neighborhoods it served are lacking in the sort of upscale types who can get their way when it comes to better service. Which is a sort of self-perpetuating thing - the poor service on the J more or less means that the neighborhoods aren't likely to improve anytime soon as they won't attract more affluent (and influential) residents.
This isn't to say that upscale residents can always get their way when it comes to transit improvements. The Upper East Side has a concentration of big shots found in few if any other places, yet all their influence hasn't gotten the Second Avenue Subway built.
[the poor service on the J more or less means that the neighborhoods
aren't likely to improve anytime soon as they won't attract more affluent (and influential) residents. ]
Not true. Many neighborhoods without adequate subway service have been able to attract affluent residents, Tribeca and City Island for example.
I thought that the 1 and 9 line's Franklin Street station serves TriBeCa. Maybe TriBeCa's not where I think it is.
Andy Sparberg's comments on the Broadway/Jamaica history are great. The approach is direct, to the point, provides lots of information, and gives an opinion without being offensive. Good stuff.
Ed Alfonsin/SUNY at Potsdam
There are air conditioning problems confined mostly to the Coney Island rebuilds #4840 to 4949. If you have poor A/C most likely you are riding in one of those cars. Eventhough NYCT are not supposed to mix car models they do on the JZ/L/M. They way the A/C performs on the above mentioned cars, you would be hard pressed to find a string of good cool cars if the trains were kept solid.
The #1 train crosses the US Shipping Channel over the Broadway bridge. This bridge is theoretically capable of raising its center span to allow tall ships to pass underneath. Can it still move? If so, does it ever move, and are there any restrictions on when it can move so as to not affect subway schedules?
Same question for the Dock movable bridge over the Passaic River for PATH, Amtrak and NJ Transit just outside of Newark Penn station.
Thanks.
For what it's worth:
I don't know my bridges too well, so I'm thinking this is a different one.
Yesterday (Thursday) on the PATH, they announced that WTC-Journal Square and Newark service was on 10-minute delay because of "the opening of the Hackensack River drawbridge."
PATH is "blessed" with two moveable bridges,both of which are on the
Newark to WTC line."Dock",over the Passaic River,is between Newark and
Harrison stations."Hack",over the Hackensack River,is located between
Journal Sq.and the Conrail yards in Kearny.
Open Lift Bridges and Train schedules
I can confirm that open lift bridges CAN and DO "muck up" train schedules. On Wednesday evening, Amtrak’s lift bridge over the South Branch of the Chicago River got stuck in the UP position just before the evening rush hour. It effected Metra’s Southwest (ex NS) to Orland Park and Heritage (ex GMO, ICG) to Joilet train’s for about 1 ½ hours. This bridge, located about a 1 ½ miles south of Union Station and just north of the 21st Street Interlocking, has little clearance beneath. There are many marina’s located along the south branch of the river, therefore, there are many openings, especially this time of the year.
Secondly, the Wells Street Bridge over the North Branch of the Chicago River is the route of the Northside ‘L’ lines, Ravenswood (Brown) and Evanston (Purple). This bridge recently became stuck in the open position, and a Ravenswood train had to circle the Loop an additional two times. CTA installed a turnout at Tower 18 to allow north bound Ravenswood trains, traveling west at that point, to turn south (instead of the normal northbound route), and repeat the Loop trip if the bridge is open. This was the first time I’ve heard that it was used. Naturally, any southbound train would be held at the Merchandise Mart, and successive trains would be backed up to Chicago/Franklin, and possibly beyond. The Wells Street Bridge has more clearance beneath it, so therefore most pleasure craft can get under without raising it. But again, starting in April and lasting until early October, the bridges over the Chicago River are raised on a daily basis, some more than a few times, to allow the passage of boaters.
Perhaps you have not followed the controversy as to Amtrak's electrication of the NE corridor between New Haven and Boston. Amtrak decided to electrify the shore route through New London and Providence, not the inland route through Hartford, Springfield, and Worchester. No doubt those extra two Rhode Island votes in the Senate played a role.
Subsequently, rich yacht owners in marinas upriver of the tracks raised a political stink. As a result, the bridges will be left in the open position until a train approaches, rather than in a closed position until a yacht approaches, and the trains will have to wait while the cake-eaters in their yachts go by. (Boats without sails can float under the bridges when they are closed). The yacht owners noted with glee that with all the delays, it might take as long to get to Boston as before, it will be difficult to run additional trains, and rail ridership will not increase. Power! That shows who is important and who isn't. And how long do you think it will be before a dozing engineer drives a high speed train off an open bridge into a river?
For another billion, perhaps they can electrify the inland route, and send half the trains in each direction.
I don't know how low the bridges are on the NEC Line, but the problem is different here in Chicago and, it seems to me, more easily solved.
As was already stated, the downtown bridges, with the exception of Kinzie Street on the North Branch (and the North Branch has a mere fraction of the South Branch traffic), are high enough to pass most non-sailboat traffic. Heck, the boat shuttle runs almost constantly every day in the summer between Northwestern Station and the Michigan Avenue Bridge. No, it's almost solely the sailboats that cause the frequent raising and lowering bridges in downtown Chicago, including the Lake Street Bridge carrying the Green line and the Wells Street carrying Brown and Purple.
Now, the reason the problem is different than the NEC problem is that the boats in Chicago rarely harbor up the river. No, the vast majority are stored for the winter on yards on the river and harbor during boating season in the Park District harbors on the lake. They travel the river only twice a year, UNDER MOTOR POWER. If they refrained from raising their masts until they were past the last bridge, the bridges would not need to be raised at all!
As John B. Bredin said, most of the bridges over the Chicago river are high enought to clear most river traffic. The only one which has a permanent staff is the Kinze St. bridge, which is rather low, and opens several times a day during the boating season to allow sightseeing boats, which fit under almost all of the other bridges, to pass. The clearance may be tight under some, I recall once after a really heavy rainstorm a handwritten sign on the Wendella commuter boat entrance at Madison St. saying that the boats weren't running because the river was "to (sic.) high."
Openings of the bridges for pleasure boats are very limited. Usually two days a week (Wednesdays and Sundays), a convoy of sailboats is escorted through the river by city bridge tenders (riding in mini-vans) who proceed from one bridge to the next to open and close it (acutally, there are two crews, so the each do every other bridge -- there are bridges every block in the Loop area). This convoy usually passes through around noontime, so the Loop office workers often pass their lunch hours watching the bridges open and close and boats sail by (I plead guilty to this one).
Some more interesting facts -- just south of the Kinzie St. bridge is a railroad bridge (UPRR, formerly C&NW) serving the tracks which pass beneath the Merchandise Mart and serve the Chicago Sun Times printing plant (and, at one time, served Navy Pier). As stated previously, this line is due to be abandoned soon when the Sun Times printing plant moves. This is probably the lowest bridge in Chicago, nothing much larger than a rowboat would fit under it when it's down. In any event, the bridge spends almost all of its time in the 'up' position, being lowered only for the passage of trains (usually once each direction on weekdays, maybe not every day).
The Broadway Bridge opens seldom if at all because there is no significant marine traffic on the Harlem River that can't clear closed bridges. Note that the Circle Line boats have a sufficiently low profile.
For a few months last spring and summer, I commuted by bus to Connecticut each day. Most of the time the buses used one of the bridges, the one by Yankee Stadium (I can't think of its name). Now this was obviously a swing bridge, it had warning gates and everything, but the booths used by its operators looked completely abandoned. It didn't look like the bridge had been opened in years.
I don't know about the B'way bridge but subway bridge openings are a daily occurrance. The south chanel bridge on the Rockaway line is opened several times every day. In order for that bridge to be opened, the tower operator must drop the home balls on the bridge approach before the bridge operator can open the bridge.
Conversely, recently I was in Fort Lauderdale. On the FEC RR, which runs through the downtown business area, south of Broward Blvd. there is a bridge which is kept open and closed several times daily to permit trains to cross.
Just tonight, NJT was held up in the meadowlands by trouble with the Portal Bridge (That is the bridge just past Newark Penn Sta.). The bridfge would not close. Finally, they got the bridge closed and trains resumed at slow speeds.(I was on a train in the jam)
Back in January or Febuary of this year, I do'nt remember the date, I was an extra board conductor at 242nd on the B'way line. Who ever is responsible for the bridge needed to test the span. Before the bridge was opened they sent me and other crews to a station south of the bridge (I do'nt remember which station). They had us stand by in case the bridge would not close. As I remember evey thing went fine and there were only minor disruptions in service.
njt is blessed with movable bridge on all their hoboken run in northern NJ.
ps portal bridge is over the Hackensack River. dock bridge is just outside the newark station.
The Dock bridge can and does open on rare occasions.Thankfully,there's
not much river traffic anymore.
NJT and PATH request four hours'notice for bridge openings.I believe
that Amtrak also does,but I'm not 100% sure.
There's also a Federal law that gives river traffic the right of way,
and states that bridges must be opened in a "reasonable" amount of
time,with or without prior notice.
In my experience,all of the parties involved (Railroads,Shipping
Companies,Coast Guard) try to cooperate.In spite of this,there may be
situations such as weather,tides,or emergencies that would require
bridge openings with adverse effects on rail traffic.
the M-4's ......... DOORS ARE CLOSING
the R-110's ........ BEEP BEEP BEEP......
both ..... women anouncers...........same
WHO's THE WINNER?
PLEASE MORE COMMENTS
SEPTA WINS......... WE HAVE A TIME/CLOCK COMPUTER SIGN INSIDE AND OUTSIDE BUS.
NYC LOSES...... NO CLOCKS INSIDE BUS AND KINDA LOUD TOO.
NYC bus has a driver SEPTA bus driver is on strike
Until yesterday, I've never rode on subway train on outside elavated tracks during a T'storm. During the past few evenings, we've received some strong storms accompanied by persistent lightning flashes. If a bolt of lightning were to ever strike a subway car's exterior frame, what would be the end result. I would think that there is some type of grounding scheme along the elavated tracks to prevent disaster.
-GarfieldA
You are safe inside a subway car during a thunderstorm. The car acts like a "Faraday cage," and the current follows path-to-ground around the outside of the car in case of a strike. And the car is indeed grounded... the same way that the 600V DC current gets to ground - through the grounded running rail.
In case of a thunderstorm while you are standing on an elevated platform, it would be wise to stay inside the fare collection area. It IS possible to be struck by a lightning bolt while on the platform, or entering/leaving the train. Lightning is the SECOND most frequent cause of death from weather phenomena. Flooding is the first!
Your SubTalk meteorologist... today reporting LIVE from Saint Louis, where the Metrolink LRV service is terrific!
God is a railfan. He/she would never strike a subway car with lightning. :)
--Mark
WHY IS IT THAT METROCARD CUSTOMERS HAVE TO TRANSFER WITHIN ONE HOUR TO TRANSFER TRAIN TO BUS OR OTHER WAY AROUND.
SEE HERE IN THE CITY OF BROTHERLY LOVE, WE HAVE 64.00 MONTHLY PASS AND CAN PROCEED THROUGH A BUS OR TURNSTYLE AS MANY TIMES. NO TRANSFER WITHIN AN HOUR TOO.
I THINK YOUR NYCTA SYSTEM IS A LOT GREEDY FOR CASH.
I DONT LIKE WHEN YOU HAVE TO RECYCLE MONEY ON THIS METROCARDS WHEN ITS EMPTY.
A few answers about NYC's Metrocard.
1. Last I checked, you had two hours for a free transfer in NYC, not one.
2. We here in the City of Suddenly Shove are only days away from getting our very own unlimited monthly passes, priced (I think) about the same as Philly's.
3. You don't have to refill Metrocards, though it's encouraged, and it certainly is more environmentally responsible than just throwing them away.
However, they do seem to wear out, and they also expire after a long time, something like nine months or a year. Then we turn the old one in, and the clerk transfers any money that's left onto a new card.
As to whether NYCT is greedy for cash, I'll leave that question to greater minds than mine.
anyway MR. Tony B..........
one , two hours , whatever......... Still a ripoff JACK..........
as far as leave the question to you WISE ASS.......
why should these passes even have transfer situtations anyway.
So use tokens or better still stay in Philly. Then you won't have to worry about the MetroCard until at least late 1999 or 2000 when the token will probabaly disappear.
What I would really like to say I won't because I promised our webmaster that there would be no major flammage.
Uh, you're incorrect about one thing: the transfer (when paid via cash or Pay-Per-Ride MetroCard) must be taken within *two*, not one, hours.
Also, forgive me for gloating here, but I want to point out tht our 30-day adult fare passes will cost $63.00, $1.00 less than SEPTA's monthly TransPass. Our 7-day passes will cost $17.00 (SEPTA's weekly TransPass is $17.25). When our "Fun Pass" is introduced this Fall, it will be priced at $4, versus $5 for SEPTA's Day Pass. And to further this, eligible senior citizens (and non-senior disabled individuals) in possession of a Reduced-Fare MetroCard (think MetroCard, only it includes the person's photograph and name, to insure it is not used by anyone else) will get a 50% discount on the 7-Day and 30-Day Unlimited Ride MetroCard). :-) HEHEHEHE! :-)
You can debate the relative merits of the SEPTA monthly pass and the NYCT monthly pass. You can debate the transfer policies of the two, also. You can also debate whether recycling metrocards is enviromentally sound or not but if you want to ride a train, guess you'll just have to come here cause you can't do it there, right?
On a personal note, you sound way to hostile for civilized society!!
Chill out and enjoy being around intelligent people(for a change).
Ok, the latest:
Brookens has met with a "powerful" Democratic Senator from SoPhilly who told them to "Stop Throwing Hand Grenades at Rendell" and get his workers back to their jobs.
Brookens said he is not throwing hand grenades to the mayor.
He [the local 234] has written a letter to the DNC Site Selection Committee urging them not to come to Philly in Y2K convention (they probabaly wont be back to work yet =) because we [Philly] are anti-union.
hmmm.
Something occured to me: for those fortunate enough to have an employer or educator that provides shuttles FREE (or small fee) are getting a better deal. Consider: Drexel and Penn are providing FREE shuttles to "key transportation centers" throughout the city. The DU shuttles running (they have been the only ones I have been on (it is a joint program)) feature: guranteed seating (state law - no standees), a/c, people you know, smooth ride, door-to-door [sort=of] to places like Market East.
I think I have saved $10+ in the process, and I know a lot of my professors have as well.
Any thoughts?
Now that we're about to enter Day 22, with no end in sight, I'm beginning to wonder IF it will end. The SEPTA Board is now saying that business as usual cannot continue and SEPTA is willing to hold out on the work rules issue. The current theme (and I'm not sure I totally believe it) is that, without the work rule concessions, the deficit will be enormous by 2002 and any hope of the current 5-year strategic plan resulting in any operating efficiencies will be naught. As the story goes, that will be the end of SEPTA. Kind of a non- threat as I see it - can SEPTA's replacement be any worse? (Of course, the doomsday-sayers will tell you that SEPTA will not need to be replaced, and, as you've seen in my past posts on this subject, the region's doing OK without transit, thank you very much.)
Will the private shuttles continue after the strike is over? Drexel and Penn have been doing this for some time in the vein of student safety. It bothers me, as a graduate of one of these institutions, that considerable cash is being spent to deny students any useful experience of the urban environment, something the vast majority of them haven't seen before coming to college and, with the shuttles, they won't see during their stay here. To me, it is akin to the parent who walks his/her child to school every day until high school graduation. At some point, these folks need to experience the city. Unfortunately, with the strike, it isn't right now.
When I was ging to high school in the late 80's I always used the 7 train as one of my trains to get to my school. I used to always see a sign about the Fisk Interlocking Project. What was it about and can explain to me how it can be seen today?
Fisk Interlocking involved the rebuilding of the switches just east (operationally north) of 61-Woodside on the #7 Line. The switches enable trains operating either way on the middle (express) track to move to the local tracks. The reverse is also true. This complex was rebuilt in the late 1980's. It is the only location between Queens Plaza and Willets Point where locals and expresses can switch tracks.
That was one of the most interesting G.O.'s ever. It was the first time I ever saw true interfacing between 2 MTA agencies. The 7 from Manhattan terminated at Hunters Point that whole weekend and L.I.R.R. trains with paper-purple #7 signs in their windows stopped at Hunters Point (rare M1 sighting here), Woodside, Shea Stadium & Main St. Intermediate stations were served by taking this LIRR shuttle to your nearest corresponding station where you transfered to a T.A. shuttle bus.
Does anyone know when the train passes become available, their cost, where to buy them, etc. I'd appreciate any information. Thanks.
If you mean the unlimited-use MetroCards, they'll become effective 7-4. There will be a monthly for $63 and a weekly for $17. A $4 daily will become available sometime in the fall.
You can buy the cards at any token booth.
Recently, as I often travel between the city and Jersey by bus on Friday evenings and weekends, I have occasianally sighted at least one or two NJ Transit MC-9s in their original configuration (not the modified Jersey Cruisers, of which NJ Transit must have about 1000). I saw one yesterday coming out of the Lincoln Tunnel on the Jersey side, and I usually see one parked near one of the Port Authority's ramps. Does anyone know what lines these buses are used on or what their status is? I have very little information on them, and NJ Transit never has them on display at the Hoboken Festival (although they always have two Jersey Cruisers). Any information will be appreciated.
What are the modified MCI's 2 axle buses?? The regular one's may be prototypes or test buses. I remeber seeing these things in print when they bought them but it's been a while
NJT never had many regular MC-9's - and I suspect many of them to be second-hand purchases. I believe they still have the protoype which did not have the Jersey-Cruiser style front cap. In your posting you mention modified and original configuration. Keep in mind that the Jersey Cruisers were delivered as they are. NJT has had many second hand buses over the years, but at the Hoboken festival I've only seen buses on display that NJT has purchased new from the manufacturer. One exception is I believe they have had an ex-NYCTA Grumman 870 there. BTW there are two types of Jersey Cruisers the first is the MC-9A (1983 - 6100-6700 series) and the MC-9B (1987 - 5000 series). ISorry, I don't know what lines the regular MC-9's operate on.
There were some second-hand MC-9's in the 6800 series which ran on the Southern Division up until about '94-'95. They were mainly assigned to shore runs (Atlantic City-Phila for the most part). I recall seeing one at the Roadeo at Howell Garage in '94 - I think it was 6815. 6821 is another that I can recall.
There is a NJT roster accessible thru the Motor Bus Society's webpage which is quite extensive.
Are the bus rodeos open to the public? When and where are the usually held?
Hi folks,
Just a reminder that the revised editon of my NYC subway track book is now being re-printed. With a full-colour cover to start off, and lots of new features, it's worthwhile checking out even if you bought a copy of the original book last year.
Included in the revised edition are location and numbers of all the important diverging-route home signals showing which indication is in effect for each route. Also there are two colour pages of signal aspects, an expanded introduction and more/better detail maps of the system's most complex junctions.
I'm still asking only $30 for it (including postage), and that barely covers my costs. If you're interested please e-mail me at pjd@ilap.com, or check out the book's web page at http://www.quuxuum.org/pjd/trk-book.html
If you've never seen the book before, it's about 80 pages in length, showing every track (except yard tracks; I'm still working on getting all of these...), every track number, abandoned stations/tracks, every switch, home signals, radio frequencies, whistle signals, buzzer signals and a whole lot more! It's accureate as of mid-May.
Thanks for your interest in this project; it's still a labour of love for me, even after 3 1/2 years of hard work on it.
Cheers, and thanks to all.
Peter.
please call me 914 668 9218
The new Subway car that I have made is call the R-151. It will be the safest car in the world. It will have a automatic decupling switch and emergency braking system. So when the first car goes off the track the second car will automaticlly decuple and brake to a stop-- to safty. Now in the past the like the A at 135 Street and the Times Square incodent the last car or the last of the cars was ripped apart due to the force of the train moving still. Now in my model it has an automactic scanning system to make sure all of the cars are in good condition and if the scanners pick up that the last cars are derailed or ripping apart the train will automaticlly will decuple and put on so that the force is not that great and people can live. When people cross between cars there will be a little car bridge with poles so that you can cross on the bridge instead of crossing between potentially dangerous gaps between cars. The bridges can move and be flexible so that they can move on the turns. Now I can keep this or remove this call this the A.S.L.S standing for Automatic Synchronized Locking System. The car will have a computer that know all of the lines and there turns and there speeds allowed. So if I told it that we are on the A line it will know the speed the turns and the speed to go at these turns. All the drivers need to do it start the train and stop the trains at their stations. The bodies of the trains will be stanless steel. The windows will be not glass but a cheeper more reliable stronger hard plastic. On the trains the seating will be like the R-32/36/33 models. There will be two maps one for the blind and one that tells which stop it is at and it will look like a normal map. So tell me what you think. Now there will be two Models call the R-151 and R-151b. The R-151 is what I just taked about and the R-151b will thw smae just for the IRT cars.
Sounds Good! Can't wait to see it.
This idea keeps getting better! Here are some refinements that you might want to consider in addition to all of the above mentioned: For the BMT/IND, set them up like the old "D" type triplex, 60-foot, R42-
style cars, five to a unit. (this way, they can be run as J's, L's or M's). Give them some old-fashioned touches (R15's handholds, just about big enough to fit your fist into; portholes in the door panels, round end windows etc.), R38's A/C and interior lighting, plus the curly bars for the handicapped, R110's car-end windows (so you can look through the train), and enclose the bridges in some kind of flexible material that can bend on curves but be strong enough so people can't fall through it. For the IRT cousin, ditto, except on a smaller scale: standard 51-foot, five to a unit, like the Kawasakis. Choice for manufacturer? Budd. And be sure and use the good stainless steel, like the 32's. If they build em right, they'll last until 2050.
YEAH BUDDY............VERY IMPRESSIVE..........THE ONLY THING ....... LETS USE TO INTERIOR STYLE FROM THE R110 B'S. LIKE WAYNE SAID HAVE THEM RUN ON THE J ,M , L LINES........ DONT FORGET MY TONES TOO......(MOST IMPORTANT)
Can anyone provide me with info regarding the new train passes- how much, when do they become available, where will you be able to buy them, etc. I would appreciate your help. Thanks.
The weekly pass-$17 for 7 days of unlimited rides, Monthly $63 for 30 days unlimited rides on local bus & subway and $120-unlimited express bus, local bus, subway for 30 days.
They can be bought after JUly 4, 1998 at any booth. There will be pre-wrapped $17 and $63 cards for when the computer crashes.
Each day ends at Midnight. The clock does not start ticking until the first swipe at the turnstile, or first dip into bus farebox.
There is an 18 minute delay before it can be used again due to fraud concerns. Sometime in the fall the 18 minutes will apply only to the same station, same bus or xame avenue on the bus (Ex: you could not go from one LEX
The weekly pass-$17 for 7 days of unlimited rides, Monthly $63 for 30 days unlimited rides on local bus & subway and $120-unlimited express bus, local bus, subway for 30 days.
They can be bought after JUly 4, 1998 at any booth. There will be pre-wrapped $17 and $63 cards for when the computer crashes.
Each day ends at Midnight. The clock does not start ticking until the first swipe at the turnstile, or first dip into bus farebox.
There is an 18 minute delay before it can be used again due to fraud concerns. Sometime in the fall the 18 minutes will apply only to the same station, same bus or xame avenue on the bus (Ex: you could not go from one Lex Ave Bus to another line on Lex Ave
I did not notice any advertising on the trains for the $4 one-day pass
- does this mean that they've abandoned the idea? (NOTE: I haven't been reading each and every post regarding this subject).
By the way, read my blurb about H&M today - a fine shade of plum and prune.
Plans for daily passes haven't been abandoned. These passes will not be ready on 7-4 like the weeklies and monthlies, but should be ready sometime this fall. Excatly why they've been delayed seems to be somewhat uncertain. I heard that there were software problems, but that may not actually be the case.
June 20 1998
I took my monthly field trip today, photographing stations up and down the west side IRT, taking a total of 46 pictures. I reached my turnaround point at Park Place IRT and headed back uptown on the "A", Chambers St-WTC. I noticed that they still HAVE NOT put up the new wall tile at the "A" platform. Instead of sitting on skids on the platform, however, they have built little wooden sheds around each skid! I guess this means that they've shelved the idea of putting up the new tile for the forseeable future. The studs are in place on the old wall, the new tile's been delivered, what's the deal here? The old plum-colored tile band has so many patches of blue, purple and violet in it that it looks like a quilt. The "E"/"C" platform's been done for a while - but they forgot to put the station's name up
on the wall! And instead of matching the original color, they changed it to a funereal shade of Concord Grape, black border and all. I'll retire to Queens Plaza...and an even more morbid purple's there.
Oh, by the way, next time the painters go through Q.P., why not paint the pillars there purple as well (like they did at 7th & 53rd)? Yellow Ochre and Black Grape??? We think NOT!!!
See y'all soon
Wayne
Since no progress has been made, and no talks are scheduled, What is
the likelihood that the SEPTA strike could drag on through the whole
summer? Whenever SEPTA goes on strike, I'm often haunted by the 1983
regional rail strike, which lasted 108 days. What are the chances
of the current strike lasting that long, or even longer? How long can
a transit strike last? Thanks.
Anyone know about the Grand Central station on the IRT 7 line?
There are plywood on the floor covering up holes cut in the cement.
There are two wooden enclosures containing loud machinary. Sounds like some sort of AC system. Anyone know what they are?
I believe that elevators will be installed.
I have had it for the longest of time I can't scan it but when I do get it you won't believe what you see everything is trashed on that train. Glass blood everything it is sad I am getting a scanner for my birthday in 12 more days. So 12 days til everyone sees the famous crash.
The only photo I have seen to date is an after clean-up, shot on Nov. 2, 1918. I found this photo in the book, Cash, Tokens, and Transfers by Brian J. Cudahy.
I will await yours with interest.
G M H
For people who don't know that number is the number of the head car in the famous Union Square Crash. I have done studying and found out that there were no trippers in the working ara and that the driver was going over 50 miles per hour and there were 3 signals one was green the other yellow and the other red. The last two did not have trippers and the train was still going 50 miles if there was a tripper there the train would have stopped. Were they out in 1991?
The only signal in the scenario you posted that would have a trip arm in the tripping position would be the red signal. The signal system when installed the subway cars had a different brake shoe installed. Sometime in the 70's or 80's a composite brake shoe was installed to give a smoother stop however this also increased braking distance and the signal system wasn't ugraded to compensate for this. If the flaggers trips were in place it would have only protected the work area not the switch area in advance of the switch involved in the derailment. After the crash now a switch must be kept in normal till the train is either stopped or that tower knows the train is at a safe enough speed to cross the switch. If this were the scene at the fatefull crash the train should have come to a stop because the red
approach with trip arm up and home signal at red(danger) trip arm up. the train physical would slide by red signals and start possible 100-200 feet beyond the red signals and remain on the rails.
In another scenario if the switch which the 2333 #4 woodlawn derailed at were set for a normal route with signals at danger and its approach signal also at danger trip arms up on both signals as they normally are in this situation and train approaching at 50 mph would have gone BIE but the consist would have come to a stop possibly 800-1200 feet after the application of the brakes at that speed and stop somewhere in the station hopefully... how far away was the work being done on that downtown express track? i'd hate to have been the flagman seeing that train barrelling down on me...
I think that the numbers are a bit different and not as damning as you state. The R-62, in emergency, brakes at 3.2 MPH/sec. On level tangent dry track, it takes 15.6 seconds to go from 50 to 0 MPH. Using the standard equation for distance traveled:
S = 1/2 A (T x T)
where s= distance
A= rate of accelleration and
T = time you get
S= 1/2 x (3.2 x 15.6 x 15.6) or 389.4 feet traveled
Let me correct my previous poting about stopping distances. The formula below is correct but one of the values is not:
S = 1/2 (A x T x T) where
S = stopping distance
A = Accelleration expressed in ft./sec. should be 4.8 (not 3.2)
T = time to stop is 15.6 seconds
S = 1/2 (4.8 x 15.6 x 15.6) or 584 feet to stop the train from 50 MPH using emergency braking.
Isn't 600 feet the length of a train? Does that mean that if the trains are traveling at 50 miles per hour, and the emergency stop distance is 600 feet, trains only need to be one-train length apart for safety sake (perhaps a little more)?
Moreover, at 50 miles per hour a train travels 4,400 feet per minute. At that rate, it only takes 7.3 seconds for an entire train to pass. It would be another 7.3 seconds for a second train one train-length behind to arrive. That means that in an open stretch of tunnel, you could have one train every 15 seconds. Thats four trains per minute, or 240 trains per hour.
Needless to say, no one would ever run trains that tight. But if these stopping distances are correct, it makes me more certain than ever that the Cranberry, Montigue, and Rutgers tunnels could take all 85 trains per hour now traveling through both the tunnels and over the Manhattan Bridge -- if connections were built so the trains could converge after the last stations and diverge before the first stations so as not to back up behind trains loading and unloading. Even at 60 trains per hour, the TA would only need two tunnels at a time.
But is it really just one train length to stop from 50 miles per hour?
It seems to me that reaction times are a major factor when it comes to train stopping distances. These times are likely to be notably longer than with automobiles. Figure that when a driver sees a hazard ahead, it's virtually an instinctual reaction to hit the brakes - everybody's done it so often that it's second nature. But when a train operator sees a hazard ahead, there's probably a longer time lag (in relative terms) before he or she yanks the emergency stop cord, as doing so is not common nature.
You make a good point, factoring in reaction time is important. While training to be a TA bus operator we were taught to have our foot positioned on the brake pedal when not accelerating and always while moving thru an intersection. This would in fact reduce reaction time.
As far as a train operator is concerned, to but a train in emergency he need only release the controler or put the brake handle in the emergency position.(I think I got that right, I'm a conductor.)
The longest reaction time necessary to stop a train most likely involves the conductor, after recognizeing the danger he must pull his head in, find the cord, and pull it. Redbirds and SilverBirds(R-62's) have the cords in different corners of the cab.
The best way to reduce reaction time from the conductors position would be to require the conductor to have his hand on the cord as the train leaves the station. This would not be practical for many reasons, which probably why it is not required.
There is another factor which needs to be taken into consideration: momentum. An 8-car train of, say, R68s weighs something like 720,000-750,000 pounds. Stopping that much mass takes that much longer. As far as the R-68s are concerned, perhaps the real question sould be: can the R-68s even get up to 50 mph? The consensus seems to be they can't. Regardless, braking distance increases exponentially as speed increases.
Yours is a common misconception about braking rates. The braking effort for each car is the same (by design) and is cumulative. Therefore, as the length of the train increases and the weight also increases correspondingly, so does the braking effort. To make it simple, a one car train, a two car train and an 8-car train all have the same ratio of brake effort to weight. Minor differences between car loads are even accounted for by the constant 'weighing' of the car and adjusting the propulsion/braking according to the load.
As for your second comment, let me assure you that the R-68 can reach speeds in excess of 50 MPH. While that is less comon now, given the 100% field shunting modification, there are spots where the R-68s will achieve speeds of up to 55 MPH, albiet for short periods of time.
[Minor differences between car loads are even accounted for by the constant 'weighing' of the car and adjusting the propulsion/braking according to the load. ]
Are you saying that the TA goes to great effort to make sure that all cars brake evenly, so as to prevent cars from bunching or stringing out upon breaking?
It seems like it would be quite hard to do this, given uncertainties. For one thing, there are varying amounts of passengers on the cars! And how necessary is it? Can't the couplers take the strain? And there is no slack, so why does it matter.
One other thing: a poster said that the stopping distance goes up "exponentially" with the speed of the train. OK, I am being a nerd here. The stopping distance varies as the square of the speed, ie speed^2. If it varied exponentially with speed it would vary as exp(speed) which is e^speed - where speed is in the exponent. Not the same at all. If you do not know what I am talking about, don't worry, like I said, this is a silly point.
NYC Subway cars are requires to brake at the same rate regardless of the load - period. Every car has a "Load Sensor" mounted between the car body and the #1 truck. It's a pneumatic transducer that has just one purpose. To continually sense the load in the car and send a pneumatic signal to the propulsion and air brake equipment to compensate for the additional load. It's necessary in order to protect the propulsion and braking equipment from overload and to provide a safe, smooth ride. The load sensor output is checked on inspection every 10,000 miles or 66 days, which ever comes first. Keep in mind that the load inside a car can equal half the weight of an empty car. I'm quite sure that the couplers can take the banging around. The couplers are held in place by four shear-pins which are designed to break when strained over 180,000 ft/lbs each. Thats the equavelant of an empty car hitting a fixed object at 5 MPH. Finally, the stopping distance varies with the square of the rate of decelleration.
The distance required to stop is a function of the rate of 'decelleration' & the square of the 'time' required to stop. I don't mean to nit-pick but I want to be accurate.
For a little fun with the math, let's make that the square of the velocity. The distance is a function of the kinetic energy involved which is 1/2 m v squared where m is the mass (weight / gravitational constant)and v is the velocity.
The distance is (v squared) / (2 * b) where b is the braking rate. Thus at 30 mph (44 ft/sec) and b = 3 ft/sec/sec it takes 322 ft to stop. Ft/sec = 1.4666 times MPH. (5280/3600= 1.4666)
Where t is time in seconds, d = distance in feet, v = ft/sec, b = ft/sec/sec, sqr is square root, * = multiply, / = divide we have:
1. v = t * b
2. t = v / b
3. v = sqr(d * 2 * b )
4. d = (v*v) / (2 * b)
5. t = sqr(2 * d / b)
6. d = (t*t) * ( b / 2)
I haven't done this for a while so check me out. All of this assumes a uniform braking rate. Acceleration with a fixed horsepower available, is far more wild than the above.
Wow. I am impressed. Do other transit or passenger rail systems have this feature? How long has NYCTA equipment had this? Hard to picture how it was done (accurately) in the days before microprocessors.
Does this simply improve the ride, or does it also have maintainence advantages ($$$)?
Lastly, how is it made fail-safe so that a car does not decide it has a light load and not brake hard enough?
All of the NYCT SMEE cars were equiped with Load Sensors and Variable Load Valves before that. I'm quite sure that most transit properties operating MU equipment use a similar system. Keep in mind that NYCT uses air brake systems from NY Air Brake, WABCO and Westcode. Each has a similar system. These companies sell their products internatinally. Aside from improving the ride, there are other advantages to load sensing. However, the explanation would be long, technical and generally boring. Simply put, this system prolongs the life of propulsion and braking equipment.
Finally, like anything mechanical, or electrical, it is not fail-safe. A leaking load sensor could tell a car that it is light load when it sould be in heavy load or a stuck load sensor could tell a car it has a heavy load when, in fact, it is empty. The results could be overheated grids, excess power (banging on accelleration) or a generally rough ride.
BTW - This 'technology' was incorporated on the R-10s, the first real smee cars. (Long, long before micro-processors)
The R-10s emitted the characteristic beep discussed in previous postings right after the doors would close, as did subsequent cars through the R-38s.
The R-38 didn't have the characteristic puff because it was the first contract equiped with a 'load sensor' rather than a 'variable load' The R-32s trough R-36s were converted to a load sensor when they were overhauled.
I stand corrected. I'm sure the R-68s will hit 55 going downhill through one of the East River tunnels. Hey, if the BMT standards could do it...
Unless you are talking about a different incident than I think you are, then your research is severely flawed.
First: The train involved was an R-62 and therefore, the car number you cite must be incorrect.
Second: The train was proceeding on the express track. North of 14th Street, the train operator was given a diverging route to the local track. If the local track was clear, then the indication of the signal would have been "proceed on diverging route, normal speed". In any event, unless the top signal aspect of the homeball was red, there would have been no stop arms up throughout the routing.
On the NYCT system, only a red signal is mechanically enforced. To compensate for this, the NYCT has installed 'wheel detectors' approaching switches. If the prescribed speed is exceeded, it will trip the train and apply the emergency brakes.
I did my research and I found out that it was an R-62 and if you go to the accident section of the Site you will finf that number just enlarge the picture. In my reasearch thefrist signal was green the second was a proceed with caution be prepared to stop at next signal and the final one was red. The train passed all three signals turned at a fast speed and derailed.
I have made a mistake the picture in this site shows the third car 1437. Sorry but I still have written proof that the front car was 4-2333
The following appeared in the October, 1991 New York Division ERA Bulletin (page 1):
"If signal 1052/MM on the southbound express track (400 feet north of the crossover) had been a grade time signal, it would have slowed the train before it reached the crossover. Unfortunately, 1052/MM displayed yellow over yellow over 'D' for moves to the local track. A motorman observing this indication must slow down. If he exceeds the allowable speed, the next signal will trip him. When the switch is set for a move from the express to the local track, the next signal, 1012/MM, on the express track at the crossover, and the following one, 994/MM, on the local track just beyond the crossover, are grade time signals. The ill-fated train, which approached the crossover at a speed between 40 and 50 miles per hour, was probably tripped by signal 1012/MM, but couldn't have slowed down to the required speed of 10-15 miles per hour before derailing on the crossover."
If I remember correctly, the train WAS tripped (I'm pretty sure the investigation had not yet been completed when the article was published). As Steve noted, since the accident, wheel detectors (WD) have been installed in the area.
The designation "4-2333" probably refers to the interval, although it's not the NYCT way of designating intervals. The accident occurred around 12:10 AM at Union Square, which seems to be consistent with an 11:33 PM departure from Woodlawn. According to the current Weekday schedule (as posted on the MTA website), there's an 11:30 PM (2330) departure from Woodlawn that is scheduled to leave Grand Central at 12:03 AM.
The New York Division-ERA's website is
http://members.aol.com/rob110178/era/home.html
David
2333 was the interval (the time the train left the terminal) from Woodlawn. NYCT cars are not numbered in the manner your have stated. The train involved was the 2333 (11:33 P.M.) #4 train from Woodlawn Road. NYCT does not have the capability (except the R110B) to have the leaving time of the train you are on to be posted in the front of the train.
Let's set the record straight regarding the units involved:
First car: #1437 The picture says it all.
Second car: #1439 Unscathed except for a few scratches
Third car: #1440 That's her nose sticking into the sheared-off half of #1437. The pictures don't show the huge gash in her side from hitting the girders.
Fourth car: #1436 Rammed into the rear of #1440
Fifth car: #1435 Rammed into the rear of #1436.
Based on observations from news video and photographs.
Cars 6-10: don't have information on them.
Let's not forget the fact that alcohol was involved in this incident.
Alcohol was a definite factor. As well as a very relaxed routine as far as safety measures that were ignored on the part of supervision and the trains conductor, that could also be blamed on the Space Shuttle disaster of 1985. I guess when things just run smooth over a period of time folks who work in safety related fields sometimes let their guard down which is a lesson to all of us.
Consider also that when the system was built trains did not go as fast and accelerate as they do today. Sort of like trying to drive at 55 on the FDR or the Interboro. It can be done but it is dangerous because these highways were built for slower autos than todays.
Two minor corrections. R-62s are linked into 5-car units IN SEQUENCE. Units either run from 1-5 (as 1431-1432-1433-1434-1435) or 6-0 (as 1436-1437-1438-1439-1440). Therefore 1435 and 1436 could not be in the same consist. Second, you'll have to agree that 1437 could not be the first car. I believe that 1436 was the first car but it picked the switch and continued along the 'normal route'. This explains why the operator was not killed. 1437 took the switch and was pulled (by 1436) back, sustaining the most damage as it hit the air compressor adjacent to the platform (between the 2 tracks). 1438 then hit 1437 and went upwards against the tunnel roof. The lead truck from 1438 ended up in front of 1437.
Steve,
The front half of the first car was pretty much intact! Not a mark on the front end. The car was ripped apart just ahead of the third door,
with a big piece of the port side sheared off to between the first and second doors.
Please read Dave's post of 22 June, 17:52 - that will explain why the
cars were out of sequence; they had not become a "bunch" yet. They may have had consecutive numbers, but were not in order. I have all newspapers from 8-29-91 thru 9-01-91. 1437 shows up as the lead car every time. Text in report indicates it as well: (copied word for word, NY Daily News,pg. 4, paragraph 5: reads as follows:)
"After downing a Scotch and a beer, at least two sources close to the investigation said, [the motorman] arrived a few minutes late to take the controls of Car No. 1437 on the IRT No. 4 line."
By the way, I think 1435 was involved, probably the fifth car. There's an odd-numbered R62 bunch out there right now, goes like this:
1431-1432-1433-1434....1438! I've seen it many times in my travels.
Have a pleasant eve,
Wayne
I also remeber finding the first car with virtually no damage to the #1 end. It also occurred to me that some of the cars did come apart during the incident(Uncoupled) so they had not yet been linked. I checked my photo collection and found a pix of the 3rd car wedged up against the tunnel roof with me standing virtually under it but I could not see the car #. Thanks for the memory jog.
If U can scan n send that proof, do so because car #2333 is an R-62A which is mechanically different from an R-62 and may not even run properly or at all intermixed with an R-62.
You're missing the point.
2333 refers to the train identification - meaning its the train that departed the Woodlawn Terminal (#4) line at 11:33 PM or 2333 on the 24 hour clock. If you're following the other posts, the damaged cars are in the 1430 number series.
However, I also agree with Steve. There seems to be some discrepancy between the individual car numbers and their alleged sequence in the train.
And Bill if your reading.
Does your statement imply that the correct title for that "great?" movie/book should have been, The Taking of the 123 Pelham?
your wrong ASSHOLE!!
You have been asked to refrain from using that language on this message board. When are you going to???
let me correct my earlier post a switch may not be thrown to a diverging route unless a train is stopped or tower operator sees the train is operating a safe enough speed for the diverging route. Wheel detectors are the product of the Union SQuare derailment. WD are in effect when a home signal is set for a diverging route.
The book The Subway the car numbers are listed as:
1440 1st car
1439 2nd car
1437 3rd car
1436 4th car
1434 6th car
If memory serves, the 10-car trainset involved in the Union Square wreck was supposed to have been the next to be made into 5-car units (NYCT hadn't completed the R-62 unitizing program in August 1991). The train was made up of ten consecutively-numbered cars, but the cars were not in consecutive order (confusing, no?).
David
That certainly would answer the question I had about the car numbers when I read the Fischler book.
It seems that consecutively numbered cars are turning up more amd more in consists. I have seen 10-car trains of consecutively numbered R-33s which are not necessarily in numerical order. It's an unbeatable combination - a solid train with consecutively numbered cars to boot. You gotta like that.
I saw my first one on the #1 back on June 28 - 2331 thru 2335.
It was passing and I didn't notice if they were conjoined or if the
cabs in the 1 and 5 cars were transverse or not.
Wayne
I understand that the 62's on the #1 line are to become 5 car "families" and will have transverse cabs at the ends of each 5 car unit.
I saw a memo about five months ago instructing Conductors to disregared the extra zone light that will be added to the Master Door Controler, and to continue to use the zone light in the bulkhead for front zone door indication. For those who may not know, when a R-62 or 62a is converted to a transverse cab the door indication zone light on the bulkhead is deactivated and a second zone light is added to the Master Door Controler.
The memo mentioned that this was being done in preperation for the linking of cars into five car units.
I think we're going to have to amend this one - The first car of the train had its rear third torn off, and that one was 1437. 1440 was the third car, the one that hit the girders. I have all the papers from 8-29-91 through 9-01-91 and 1437 shows up as the first car in all of them. For now, I stand by my observations.
Unlimited passes for nycta still sounds half assed wouldn't a 20% discount on $15 or more or better yet off peak discount be better?
My argument was a 50 percent discount for off-peak would be better. I wrote the MTA last fall and suggested having the fare step up from 75 cents to $1.50, at 25 cents per 15 minutes, the early morning hours (the earlier you board the more you save) then step down after rush hour the same way. The pattern would be repeated in the evening. The fare would be 75 cents before 6:30; $1:00 from 6:30 to 6:45; $1.25 from 6:45 to 7:00; and $1.50 from 7:00 to 9:00. It would be $75 cents all night and all weekend. When the fare needed to be raised again, it could be raised during the heart of rush hour only ie. from 7:30 to 8:30.
Low income workers (construction, stores, restaurants, hotels, building maintenance) are more likely to have shifts that begin or end off peak. Others could pressure their employers to shift their work hours to take advantage of lower fares. That would provide the affluent, who would pay to travel on peak, with less crowding. On lines which are not crowded not, the TA could cut peak hour services (big savings since fewer trains/buses/employees are required) and add
service off-peak (less costly since you better use personnel and equipment you already have).
More importantly, such a policy would provide big savings to those taking off-peak trips --- not just those who already take 10 work trips per week, and can therefore get off-peak savings by purchasing the monthly.
Unfortunately, the 20 percent discount has more appeal to the outer borough and suburban wealthy than either the monthly pass or the off-peak discount. These people have cars, and only use the system on peak, so they care not at all about benefits to those who use the system off peak. The only way to get them to go along is to convince them that peak/off peak pricing would turn rush hour service into the suits express. Under the circumstances, perhaps the pass is the best we could do.
"That would provide the affluent, who would pay to travel on peak, with less crowding."
So, you think that if an off-peak discount were instituted, the only people left taking peak-hour trains would be "the affluent"???
For every stockbroker, attorney, banker, judge, city official and other upper-middle-class person who travels at peak-commute time (the banks, stock exchanges, courts of law, and city offices being stereotypically "9 to 5" facilities), there are a multiple number of non-affluent support personnel (secretaries, assistants, clerks, etc.) who also have to be in the office at the same time.
In New York, all those secretaries/assistants/clerks are being automated out of existence. That's how we lost hundreds of thousands of jobs in the early 1990s. You'll find out about it when the commodity markets go to automated transactions, and thousands of jobs at the MERC and CBOT go POOF!
It is not impossible to change work hours, even for support staff. You could have one shift from 7:00 a.m. to 2:30, and another from 2:30 to 10:00 to have coverage for the entire day. Works great with parenting.
DC uses the fare cards for peak-off peak but their peak is not the same as NYC.
If the DC model is followed the next logical step would be distance based fares for peak riding, and flat fare for off peak, an option that I am not in favor of.
Unlimited ride passes increase ridership and make the system more effective because once the pass is paid for with peak riding it will be used off peak where there is extra cappacity on the system.
I have to disagree with you Larry, primarily because I don't think that the discounts that could realistically be offered by the MTA are sufficient to alter people's commuting patterns, given the other constraints on their jobs. In fact, I'm not sure that such discounts _should_ have that effect. As much of a social planner and tinkerer as I am, I don't really want the MTA to be acting as an agent for social change vis a vis our 9-5 work habits.
Anyway, there are two specific points I want to make.
1) Since WWII, Most of the jobs that have been lost in NYC have been in manufacturing. Most of the jobs that have been created have been in "FIRE" (Finance, Insurance, Real Estate, as it's called). The majority of those jobs are secretarial, support, etc., (my former lawfirm had 125 lawyers and 300 support staff). Those people really would benefit from peak-fare discounts, and they would be taking advantage of them: they really can't work odd shifts like 7:00 to 2:00, etc., becuase they are support staff, and have to work with other people who tend to work 9-5. I doubt that their travel patterns can be altered much simply by discounted train/bus fare, and any off-peak discount would merely be a boon to those who work the night shift. At least, not unless everyone changed their work habits.
2) One of the characteristics of off-peak discounts is that they are usually coupled with unlimited-ride passes. (The NYCTA is 1/2 way there!) Once that happens, the actual, day to day effect is not so much to encourage off-peak riding, but to discourage _occasional_ peak fares. This happens because the monthly pass is cheaper than daily off-peak tickets (at least, it is on Metro North). Anyone who commutes reguarly is faced with this choice -- work at odd hours in order to save $x.xx, or suck it up and buy the higher unlimited peak fare (and not the higher daily peak fare). Once there is an unlimited ride option, the difference between the fares becomes so small (or even a benefit to travel on peak!) that it really isn't worth anyone's time to change their habits, except the occasional traveler who doesn't mind killing altering his plans for an hour or so and doesn't have enough money to spend an extra $2.00, or .50, or whatever, on a single trip. I think that very few people fall into that category.
--mhg
--mhg
I think you miss a couple of things here.
As to social engineering, I'm hardly suggesting that the MTA join the vanguard, only that it bring up the rear. Virtually any business with significant fixed costs and variable demand goes to peak/off peak pricing. Airlines have higher fares, or diminished availability of discount fares, during peak travel periods. Phone companies used to offer off-peak discounts, and will again. In Lower Manhattan, which tends to empty out at night, restaurants offer cheap dinner specials. In residential areas, which are empty during the day, they offer lunch specials. Movie theaters have matinees. Newspapers use higher prices on their more-in-demand Sunday editions to subsidize the daily. Etc.
Second, support staff is being wiped out by information technology -- FIRE employs fewer workers than 30 years ago, although it employs far more high level workers and puts out more payroll. Based on data I have, there may be as much as many as 800,000 fewer "pink collar" jobs than there were 30 years ago. Just from 1970 to 1990, before the whole downsizing thing really go going and while the health care industry was still bulking up with unproductive support staff, the number of city residentw with administrative support jobs fell by 163,000. There are only a couple of secretaries in our office, and they have nothing to do. In the private sector, they would have been (have been) "downsized."
Since 1985 the big growth has been in professional jobs, service (person to person) jobs, self-employment and work at home. The latter two categories do not/need not work 9 to 5. An off peak discount would give a break to self-employed people who travel to Manhattan a couple of times a week. It would provide an incentive not to drive. The thing is, the monthly pass only provides savings to those who go to work every day. You want to induce everyone to travel more off-peak.
These trends show no signs of slowing down. Lots of people work at the stock exchanges in NYC and the commodities exchanges in Chicago. But the market is moving to electronic trading, and its happening shockingly fast. 10,000 9 to 5 exchange jobs in each city could go "poof" in the next two years. This will make trading cheaper, so more people will be trading, but they need not work 9 to 5.
There is one person who agrees with you however -- the Mayor of NYC. A couple of years ago, the economist who first suggested congestion pricing along with off-peak discounts (a New Yorker, forget his name) won the Nobel Prize for economics. He was interviewed on Newsradio88, and talked about the subway being his inspiration. Since it doesn't cost any more to add people to half-empty cars off peak, why not bring down the price so that students/seniors/the poor can take trips they could otherwise not afford? A week later on "Ask the Mayor," Giuliani was asked about the guy's ideas and treated them like the ramblings of an old, out of touch crackpot. The economist died a few weeks after winning the Nobel Prize. No respect.
Whether off-peak discounts will be useful depends in large part upon how "peak" and "off-peak" are defined. Figure it this way - if subway travel has to be conducted between 10 pm and 5 am to qualify for the off-peak discount, I doubt we'd see much of a rise in off-peak travel even with a substantial discount. Travel during those hours is too inconvenient to attract many new riders regardless of price. On the other hand, if off-peak is defined as anything *except* 7am-10am and 4pm-7pm, then there undoubtedly would be larger boost in off-peak travel.
But even those boosts are likely to be modest because work hours are harder to change than might be expected. Most employers are willing to accomodate some change, but only to a point. Sure, a worker might be able to come in at 10 instead of 9, but that won't make him or her eligible for an off-peak discount.
While self-employed and work-at-home people could use discounts, both groups exist more in theory than in fact. Note that during the last recession, there was a lot of talk about "home-based businesses" and being "bitten by the entreprenurial bug" ... talk which has largely dried up as the economy has improved.
To keep things neat, I'm going to reply to both Peter and Larry in one post.
I don't want to quibble about changing demographics in NYC. It is enough, I think, to point out that the subways are qualitatively as crowded today as they were thirty or sixty years ago. Indeed, NYC had similar congestion problems since the days of the Omnibus. Improvements in technology that eliminate the need for face to face daylight meetings (e.g. electricity, telephones, cars, computers) have actually increased the economy enough to create greater congestion. There is really no reason to think that tele-commuting, etc. is going to significantly change things any more than computers will result in paperless offices. The death knell of the 9-5 work day in an office has been trumpted for many decades now, but it's not going to happen for a while.
Specifically, there are really three reasons why I think that off-peak pricing will have little effect on NYC's commuting.
First, to the extent that people have a choice about when they travel, they avoid rush hours already, for obvious reasons. Off-peak pricing would simply reduce the revenue that they would generate. They already have an incentive to avoid overcrowded subways/highways, and don't need another.
Second, most people have no choice in travel timing, and therefore the incentive doesn't make any difference. They simply have to be at work at +/- 9:00, or make a 9:00 flight or meeting, and that's that. Until this fact changes dramatically -- and it hasn't yet and probably won't ever -- off-peak pricing is irrelevant. And, as Peter pointed out, starting work at 8:30 or 9:30 isn't much different for purposes of off-peak pricing. To that, I'll add that various incentives have been tried for many years to spread out the rush hour (e.g. financial district suposdely works 8:30 to 4:30; summer hours at business are the same). We still have a capacity problem at rush hour.
Third, the price breaks that can be offered are not large enough to change the behavior of the people listed above. For $10 or $20 a month, most people are not willing to, e.g., take the evening shift and miss seeing their kids, or work for part of the day when they have no co-workers, clients, support staff, etc. Maybe for $200 a month, they'll change, but that's not an incentive that off-peak pricing can offer. It's just not worth the cost to the user.
That said, I am in favor of off-peak pricing. But not for the reasons that Larry espouses. Also, FWIW, I think that the Mayor is talking now about off-peak pricing for bridges. (I also think he's a jackass.) But, he recognizes that simply changing the price structure for transportation isn't effective without changing the object of the transportation users at the same time, and that is something that off-peak pricing won't much do.
--mhg
[ There is one person who agrees with you however -- the Mayor of NYC. A couple of years ago, the economist who first suggested congestion pricing along with off-peak discounts (a New Yorker, forget his name) won the Nobel Prize for economics.......A week later on "Ask the mayor," Giuliani was asked about the guy's ideas and treated them like the ramblings of an old, out of touch crackpot.]
It looks like Hizzonner is changing his tune, at least a little bit. When asked about the recent record traffic in NYC, he mentioned that the traffic situation is a result of the city's success as a place that people want to be. When asked what he's planning to do to alleviate the record traffic, he said he would not consider banning cars from NYC because that would cut off tourism and commerce, but said he would study the idea of higher tolls during peak hours & lower tolls offpeak (congestion pricing!) and "getting that Hudson River rail tunnel built" so NYC's goods don't have to travel by truck. Economists estimate the traffic cost to NYC's economy as $6 BILLION dollars a year.
--Mark
As a station agent I have a concern about Peak/Non-Peak. I can forsee problems with synchronization of clocks and with people waiting just outside the turnstiles for the fare to drop leading to increased congestion. The sofware could handle time of day fares but I do not think time of day would work in NYC for the same reason people are already griping about proposed time of day toll rates.
You certainly couldn't go from $1.50 to 75 cents in one leap. The first train at the lower fare would be one crowded train!
My thought would be to have the fare rise from 75 cents, by a nickel every three minutes from 6:15 am until it reached $1.50 at 7 am, then fall by a nickel every three minutes until it reached 75 cents at 9:45. You'd repeat the same process in the afternoon. Clocks in the system should be able to do that. No one would wait three minutes to save a nickel.
They'd better do the same thing with the tolls. Otherwise, trucks will be blocking the tollgates waiting for the price to go down, or will be hitting 90 mph trying to beat the increase.
I think I agree with your ideas on this subject.
But a few things occur to me that make me wonder whether it's really possible to get that many more people to stop going to work at 8 or 9 or maybe 10 a.m. and coming home at 4:30 or 6:30 p.m., in aid of reducing rush-hour crowding and better utilizing transit resources off peak.
Isn't the traditional work day of 9 to 5, or at least "just after sunrise until just before sunset" based on its own economies of scale, not to mention human nature and biology?
Forgive me if much of the following is obvious, but ...
Long ago it was vital for farmers and others who worked outside and needed the daylight to see what they were doing --- obviously no longer a big factor in Manhattan.
But it's also that most people find it easier to sleep at night, when it's dark, and when there's far less going on --- the latter mainly because most other people follow the same pattern. Most people also prefer to travel when it's light out, because it's easier, safer and more pleasant to make one's way around (whether searching for a new client's address or determining whether that large pile of blankets on the park bench is waving to you or threatening you).
A 9-to-5 office can lower or shut off its, heat, air conditioning, lights, computers, etc., during off hours.
If it's one of the highly collaborative businesses found in NYC, such as an advertising agency or a consulting firm (like mine), it can also work at or close to full strength whenever it works at all, if it keeps 8-to-6 hours (as mine basically does). That's important when two members of a project team need to compare notes and consult with three others. Sure, they can try to track each other down at home, wake each other up, exchange e-mails, arrange networked video conferencing, yada, yada, yada ... but it's easier to just yell "Meeting!" and know that most of the people you need will be down the hall...
... Or so my boss keeps telling me when I stroll in at noon!
It's even more important when a client calls from a big corporation, where, of course, they probably work daylight hours. They don't want to be told, "Hi, Tony here. Due to transportation crowding, I'm the only member of the project team working this staggered shift. I can answer one fifth of your questions, but you may call back at 2 p.m., 7 p.m., midnight and 4 a.m. to ask the rest of them."
Sure, a factory whose workers all sit glued to an assembly line all day can run three shifts and make three times as many widgets on the same real estate, but many or most that can already do.
I realize your plan doesn't depend on vast re-engineering of working hours, and again, I think it would inevitably do some good. But I do wonder whether the above would limit its effects more than you'd imagine.
The number of people who would change work hours would be limited, but it is would not be zero. A five percent change in people working 6 to 2 or 11 to 7 instead of 9 to 5 could make a big difference.
The most important reason to reduce the fare off-peak is to induce added, optional trips during at time when the system has capacity. The poor may not be able to afford those trips -- at half price that trip to the zoo may be doable. For the better off, those with cars, auto travel is better off peak when the roads are less congested, while transit service is worse due to the longer waits and the lack of express service. A half-fare would alter the balance. The elderly and handicapped get it, so why not everyone else.
Of course a monthly pass makes the marginal cost of a discresionary off peak trip zero -- but only for people who use the transit system every day. An off peak discount would also attract those who work at home, who work part time, housewives, and their kids. The strategy is cut the price to get more business. But when you cut the price to zero, as with the pass, more business doesn't help you.
Sounds dated, no? Well, it's the title of a report I found in the library by the Committee on City Transit published by the Merchants' Association of New York on January 6, 1927, during the construction of the Eighth Avenue IND. The thesis of the report is that the city should not build a competing system but should rather consolidate the existing lines and build a set of new lines. It cites the report "Proposed Subway Plan for Subway Relief and Expansion" by Major Philip Mathews, published on December 24, 1926. Also included is a map of the proposed additions, which, if there is demand, I may be coaxed into scanning.
I leave my own comments for a future post. Quoting from the report (starting in the middle):
ROUTES
Borough of Brooklyn
No relief would be given by the proposed system to the people of Brooklyn who must travel on the Fourth Avenue, Sea Beach, West End of Brighton Beach subways. No relief would be given to the traveler on the 14th Street--Eastern subway. No relief would be given to the traveler on the Broadway line, on the Canarsie Division, on the Jamaica Division or Metropolitan Avenue Division. No relief would be given on the Fulton Street line from Grand Avenue to the Borough line. No relief would be given to the people using the I.R.T. lines in Brooklyn. With the proposed system in operation, therefore, there would be no reduction in the congestion which now exists in the system.
Borough of Manhattan
The Eighth Avenue branch of the new subway is already under construction and beyond change at this time. It is within the heavily congested area dependent upon existing rapid transit lines, part of whose passengers can be served with equal convenience by the new line. Congestion upon the West Side will be relieved by such diversion of traffic.
The Sixth Avenue branch is likewise within the half mile zone. It will, however, practically serve to relieve only the same West Side lines as does the Eighth Avenue branch, while the entire East Side, with greater traffic and ever-increasing congestion, will remain without relief.
Borough of the Bronx
The Concourse branch of the proposed system runs through a well developed section and would relieve the Jerome Avenue line. No relief is afforded to the Third Avenue elevated, the West Farms-White Plains, or the Hunts Point-Pelham Bay Park lines.
Borough of Queens
The proposed new Queens line will afford no relief to the present Astoria branch and very little to the Corona branch, which will become increasingly more congested when the Flushing extension is opened.
PROPOSED CO-ORDINATED SYSTEM
The Rapid Transit situation lends itself to a sub-division into two categories, (1) Relief, (2) Expansion.
1: RELIEF
The City today is at least 15 years behind in its rapid transit development and this condition must be remedied before plans for the future are put into effect. By utilizing the at present unusable capacity in existing lines, the greatest measure of relief can be obtained in the shortest time. Below are indicated the steps necessary to obtain this maximum of relief.
1. Connect the new Eighth Avenue line with the Sea Beach, West End, Fourth Avenue and Brighton Beach lines by a link from Wall or Fulton Street to Chambers Street where a connection can be made with the at present unused B.M.T. tracks on the down stream side of Manhattan Bridge.
2. Connect the 14th Street Eastern line with the new Eighth Avenue line by extending it from Sixth to Eighth Avenues.
3. Build a four track trunk line on Third Avenue from City Hall to a connection with the West Farms--White Plains line and the Pelham Bay Bark--Hunts Point line, and a two track extension from City Hall to Wall Street.
4. Continue the two track extension of the Third Avenue subway across the East River at Wall Street and thence to a connection with the six tracks of the I.R.T. system near Franklin Avenue.
5. Give one branch of the present Queens lines to the I.R.T. and the other to the B.M.T. Cut back the platforms on the B.M.T. branch so that steel trains can be operated. Have the Second Avenue elevated come only as far as Queens Plaza, which will be a free transfer point to all lines.
Item 1 can be made effective at once and immediately upon completion of the Eighth Avenue subway now under construction, i.e., about 1930 there will be opened direct communication from Washington Heights to Coney Island and 50 per cent additional service can be operated on the South Brooklyn lines in that year. How this 50 per cent increase will be obtained can be readily understood.
South Brooklyn service is limited to the number of trains that can be operated on the Fourth Avenue subway and on the Brighton Beach line. There are four tracks in the Fourth Avenue subway which run through the DeKalb Avenue station and cross the East River to Manhattan. The Brighton Beach line consists of four tracks from Coney Island [sic] to Prospect Park where two of them diverge to connect with the Fulton Street elevated at Franklin Avenue. From Prospect Park on there are but two tracks. These two tracks run through the DeKalb Avenue station and cross over to Manhattan.
The two Brighton Beach tracks and the four Fourth Avenue tracks make a total of six tracks through DeKalb Avenue to Manhattan. Two of these six tracks cross the East River through the Montague Street Tunnel and four of them cross on the Manhattan Bridge.
Each of these tracks has a capacity of 30 trains per hour and if they were all in operations, we could send 90 trains to Manhattan and return 90 trains from Manhattan to Brooklyn each hour. As now constructed two of these six tracks go through the Montague Street Tunnel and thence north in Manhattan, constituting the local B.M.T. Broadway trakcs. Two of the four tracks on the Manhattan Bridge continue west in Manhattan to Broadway and Canal Street and turn north, forming the express tracks on the B.M.T. Broadway line. The other two tracks on Manhattan Bridge run into a terminal at Chambers Street and have no outlet for the distribution or collection of passengers.
As a result of this layout, there are only four of the six tracks available for useful work; therefore there are only 60 trains per hour from Brooklyn to Manhattan and the same number in the opposite direction. By giving these two now useless tracks on Manhattan Bridge an outlet in Manhattan for collecting and distributing passengers, we will be able to operate the full 90 trains per hour in each direction. This will be an increase of 30 trains per hour or 50 per cent.
By building the short stretch from Chambers Street to Wall Street or Fulton, these new tracks will be continued north as the express tracks of the new Eighth Avenue subway and will take passengers from all the South Brooklyn lines through the downtown financial district through the theatrical district and up through Washington Heights to Overlook Terrace.
Item 2 can be made effective sooner than Item 1 for the Eighth Avenue contracts have already been awarded below 14th Street. This short link from Sixth to Eighth Avenues if constructed would afford direct connection from East New York and Brownsville through the garment and fur center and the Pennsylvania Station area, the theatrical district and Washington Heights. This connection would relieve the congestion at the Union Square station of the B.M.T. line where a heavy transfer takes place between the 14th Street-Eastern and the Broadway-B.M.T. lines.
Item 3 is as necessary as any construction contemplated. ...
The trunk line would permit the East Side express trains on the West Farms branch to be run down Third Avenue. This would give the Jerome Avenue branch all the present Lexington Avenue expresses, and would make possible a 100 per cent increase in subway service. The additional trains could be run on the center track as through expresses, and the present service, combined subway and Sixth Avenue elevated, remain as at present on the local tracks. It would likewise permit half of the Third Avenue subway service to operate over the Hunts Point-Pelham Bay line which is now served only by Lexington Avenue locals. This Pelham Bay section, if provided with express service, will develop as rapidly as have the other Bronx sections where express service has been available.
An additional reason for the Third Avenue trunk is that such a line will tend to spread the axial rapid transit area which now is mainly concentrated west of Fifth Avenue, and give an opportunity for equal development on the East Side.
Item 4. By continuing the express tracks of the Third Avenue subway across the East River to Franklin Avenue in Brooklyn where a connection will be made with the six tracks of the Interborough system, we will increase the carrying capacity of the Interborough lines in Brooklyn 50 per cent and at the same time provide a two way traffic for the new Third Avenue trunk line.
Item 5. ...
The cost of the five items outlined above is estimated at $284,550,000 inclusive of yards, shops, real estate and overhead.
2: EXPANSION
While the relief construction is under way, plans should be completed for an expansion program which should include:
1. A four track Brooklyn-Queens crosstown trunk line designed for extension into Richmond and The Bronx.
2. A Queens Borough trunk line from Jamaica to Eighth Avenue, Manhattan, so that a transfer may be made to the Brooklyn Crosstown line and to all north and south lines in Manhattan.
Items 1 and 2 should be trunk lines. ...
This trunk line would spread the axial rapid transitarea which is now confined entirely to Manhattan and would provide the facilities for the expanding of the downtown Brooklyn and the Long Island City business districts in a direction parallel to the business development on Manhattan. Numerous cross lines now connect Manhattan with the area through which the new trunk line would run and rapid inter-communication would bring these two districts as close together as the persent Wall Street and 42nd Street areas.
The Queens trunk line should be designed to permit of extension as a four track trunk line from Jamaica to the city limits.
To have any two track feeder lines built at the outer extermities of a subway, in the light of present rapid transit experience, is wrong. Only trunk lines should be built and the feeder lines should be bus lines, operated by the subway company. In this way, the subway affords equal opportunity for land development along its route and does not call for large expenditures in feeder lines, which always proves unsatisfactory when the area has attained its growth. The Bronx is an example of this very feature of past subway planning. Today with over 1,000,000 inhabitants, there is no express service in that entire Borough. Feeder lines tend to slow up the service and in some cases to reduce the track capacity. In a City like New York, extending over an area of 600 square miles the prime essential is speed and speed is needed more for the parts distant from the business section than in the business section. This is not the case on any of our existing lines. This mistake should not be repeated in the future.
...
The fact that there are two independent companies operating City built rapid transit lines today has created a situation which only needs to be recognized to be condemned. All the people of the city regardless of where they live, pay for teh construction of rapid transit lines, regardless of where the lines are built. It is only right, therefore, that any lines built shall be available to all the people for a single rate of fare. To make some citizens pay tow fares in order to use City built traction lines while other citizens pay only one is discrimination of the worst kind. To make the great bulk of the people of New York City, namely, those of South Brooklyn, East Side of Manhattan, all of Central and East Bronx and the most heavily settled section of Queens, pay for the construction of a city transit line which they can only use by paying a double fare is unjust and imposes on them a financial burden from which they get no return in either increased property values or transit service.
...
In submitting this report, I wish to call to your attention the fact that New York City has had over twenty years experience in rapid transit operation and much valuable information is available for study with a view to increasing the flexibility of train movements. In this connection, the use of "by-pass" switches on local tracks should be investigated as a means of increasing both speed and capacity. Also provision might be made for the short sections of storage track at several points along the line, where it is known that congestion will occur, in order that empty trains can be put into service at these points when the traffic, from any cause, becomes exceptionally heavy.
The time to make a system flexible is when it is being constructed and I recommend that your Transit Committee study this question.
Respectfully submitted,
(Signed) Philip Mathews.
HMM
Facinating. Of course, with the rise of the automobile (and commuter rail), the total capacity required in Manhattan is not nearly as great as imagined at the time. Still, if only the second IND line had been built on 3rd Avenue instead of 6th Avenue, with service up the east side as well as to Queens, we might not need that 2nd Ave subway today. And, of couse, the problem of too few trains being able to get into Manhattan due to a lack of connections is even more acute given the deterioration of the Manhattan and Williamsburg bridges -- and the capacity in the Rutgers and Cranberry tunnels.
I agree with the 'fascinating' evaluation of the report on 'Subway Consolidation.' Like so many of the other topics we discuss, our transit ancestors had a sense of what a city is all about and had great imagination, something that we seldom see any more. The 63rd Street tunnel is a perfect example of doing something without any real imagination or feeling as to how it would integrate with the rest of the system. The earlier enthusiasm lasted even into the Unification days after WWII. The Astoria extension to LaGuardia, for example, was in the BofT plans (talked about here of late), as was a VanWyck median line from Queens Boulevard to the airport (the latter, if not also the former, was wiped out by Robert Moses when he reduced the median strip on the VanWyck from 50 feet down to the 8 or 10 feet it is now--and the result is the incompatible system now proposed for Kennedy access), and the six-track proposal for Second Avenue (from Chrystie to 76th would have been local/express/superexpress).
BTW, the original post has a "sic" in the reference to the Brighton having four tracks from Coney Island to Prospect Park. That is accurate. Brighton (Broadway) locals used the lower level at West 8th Street, with a grade crossing with the Culver line. The upper level was used by Franklin Avenue service when operating. At Stillwell, Culvers used Track G (now 7), West Ends were on Track H (now 8), and the Brighton Locals used E & F (now 5 & 6, used by Culver F trains).
The grade crossing at West 8th was removed when the D was extended via the Culver to Coney Island in 1954.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
A fascinating piece of research, however the report was not really relevant. The IND system was built primarily as a vendetta by then Mayor Hyland, who sought to run the IRT & BMT out of business.
"Down stream side" -- that's a lot better than calling it the "south side".
I'm sure it's no coincidence that it's "5 years to the day". It could start a new trend: Five Years Ago on SubTalk", sort of like my local town newspaper does a "100 Years Ago in the Paper" section each week.
It also identifies a number of operational problems, some of which have since been addressed.
Getting out my nitpick tweezers, "The Brighton Beach line consists of four tracks from Coney Island [sic] to Prospect Park [...]" No need for the "[sic]." The Brighton Line was considered four tracks from Coney Island, two of which were shared with Culver between Stillwell and W8.
I'm going to get the ball rolling on the coaxing.
I've been in New York since 2001, and I no longer have borrowing privileges at the UIUC library system.
If you would like to travel to Illinois, somehow obtain borrowing privileges (I believe borrowing privileges are available to all state residents, so all you need to do is establish legal residency somewhere in Illinois), and get me the map, I would be glad to scan it.
(You'll have to remind me repeatedly to return it so you don't rack up large overdue fees.)
Incidentally, did anyone hear about a proposal for a Gates Avenue line before?
Several threads have referred to the LRV system to JFK vs extending the subway line. In addition others have referred to extending the Astoria (N) line to LaGuardia. However, is that really the best way to go? Do we really need a 600' train at LaGuardia? If we indeed do need a full train at LaGuardia, then all we will do is choke the (N) train so that there will be no room for anyone other than airport riders. What is more likely is that a LRV connecting to the end of the N line would be more practical.
With a LRV system, the latest technology could be employed. This would not be possible extending the existing subway line. Because trains would be shorter (less than 200' as opposed to 600') every terminal could have at least one platform. And since the new LRV system could use the same Ditmars Blvd. station, the passengers would only have to cross a platform. The LRV and subway fare could be combined at the airport, and thus the system would still be seamless.
Considering how many of the postings by non-regulars are inquiries of how to get from LaGuardia or JFK to some other point in the city, can anyone doubt that **full** service to the airports -- regular subway cars and not LRVs -- is necessary and would be used by passengers as well as airport and airline workers?
I ride the Blue Line every day, and it's typical that the last car or two cars -- the tail end of an outgoing train being closest to the station entrance at O'Hare -- is full of business travelers and their luggage. (This morning was particularly bad and I felt like I was riding in the baggage compartment of an airliner, though at least I got a seat.)
Of course the airport crowd will not fill a full train leaving at standard frequency, as it does not at O'Hare, as almost no station on any line on any subway in the world does. You could run airport specials and (like Philadelphia) send out a train every half-hour, or two-car or four-car trains at typical frequencies (5-7 minutes). But an airport station is just one (albeit busy) station of the line, and it's preposterous to say full-length trains at regular frequency shouldn't serve a particular station because that station by itself doesn't have enough passengers to fill full-length trains at regular frequencies.
Of course, whether or not an airport station could generate such heavy traffic would be precisely the criteria for approving or rejecting a dedicated "super-express" service to the airport, but that is not what we are discussing. The issue is whether to extend an existing line to serve the airports, and all you need for that is enough passengers to justify additional trains or cars to serve the additional traffic, not enough to justify a whole new line.
The whole advantage of extending a regular subway line is that the trackage, stations, etc. are going to be roughly the same cost as an LR line, but instead of buying a full set of LRVs, you need only add the necessary subway cars, adding trains or lengthening existing trains, to handle the additional ridership.
The subway extension vs. separate system question can be answered by two factors: cost and headways. No doubt many would take the train to LaGuardia, but it is doubtful that airport riders would fill more than six subway trains per hour (6,000 or so people). So the separate system proposal included only six trains per hour -- one every ten minutes. And even at that, the fare contemplated is as much as $10 or $15 per ride.
The N train currently operates 10 times per hour at rush hour, and 6 times per hour during most of the day. By adding airport trains to the existing line, you could operate it (at least as far as the Whitehall turnaround) 16 times at rush hour -- once every four minutes -- and 12 times during the rest of the day -- once every five minutes -- to the benefit of existing Astoria riders and airport riders alike. Neither gains much by having two separate services which operate half as often.
With the Astoria line connection, the travel time from the airport to Times Square would be only 30 to 35 minutes, even with all the local stops. These days, it can take that long to get from the mouth of the Queens Midtown tunnel to Times Square hotels. And the wait would be shorter than the queue for a taxi as well. Frequent service -- and low cost -- is more important than having a separate system.
The intended fare for a dedicated Manhattan-LaGuardia train service would be $10 to $15? Preposterous!
Even it ran at high frequencies and high speeds on dedicated tracks, thus giving a **major** time advantage over taxis, few people would pay that much if for a few dollars more they could ride in a taxi door-to-door. Anything more than a $5 fare for a separate airport service over N trackage is pure sabotage, and if the airport station is just an extension of the N service, which is what it should be for cost's sake, there really should be **no** surcharge to normal subway fare at all!
I know of no city with regular transit service to the airport -- that is, where the airport station is just another station of the regular service and there are no airport expresses -- that charges extra for transit to/from the airport.
The $10 to $15 fare is proposed for a separate, fancy looking train on a separate, fancy looking track as far as the 60th St tunnel. Collecting it would require separate fare collectors on the train, an added expense. The idea is to attract CEOs coming in from outside the city, who would not enjoy riding a subway with its mixed race and income clientele, by providing a service which is faster and sleeker than a taxi for the same money. That is the wrong idea. Those folks are going to use a limo, and the best thing you can do for them is induce others to get off the road.
The market is not CEOs coming in, it is transit-riding New Yorkers going out -- or going to work at the airport. Former New Yorkers in town, and students and other adventurous young adults traveling alone, might also use the train. These folks are used to the subway.
In the short run, to help defray the TA's additional operating expense, I propose a modest double fare to the airport: $3.00 to get on, and $1.50 to get off. In the long run, the added fare would probably go away, as for the Rockaways. Given the fact that the trains are already traveling as far as Ditmars, the TA might actually make money on the incremental service, not including the cost of extending the tracks.
Right Arm! No subway line should be expected to fill the train at the outlying terminal. Extending the Astoria line is the right idea. You are absolutely correct in your demographics. The zecks are not the market. Its the rest of us who will be footing the bill and using it. AND to reiterate from other posts, new lines should be built to specs of currently operating systems. Fewer oddball spare parts--shorter learning curves, and flexible deployment of cars.
There is another source of opposition to consider -- the "on the cuff" crowd. While high level executives would take a limo in either case, middle managers are required to economize on the road. My wife, a bank examiner, is required to take the cheapest reasonable mode in and out. Since there is no direct subway, the FED pays for car service. If there was a direct subway, she'd be required to take it. As it happens, my wife would probably prefer the subway. But many others in the "on the cuff" crowd prefer the cab.
I'm living in Europe right now, and let me tell you, the fact that none of the NYC airports have a direct rail link looks pretty absurd from a European perspective. I know of no German airports without a subway or S-Bahn link, and I know of at least one, the Frankfurt airport, which is being completely re-built so that high-speed long-distance trains can be boarded directly from the airport.
I'm sure the lack of direct rail links in NYC can be easily explained away in terms of the lack of public transit funding and scarce city resources in general. In the end it seems to be a an underdeveloped democratic culture that has brought about this embarrassment. Why can't we Americans get it together enough to do what other advanced countries have been able to do with far fewer resources, namely build and maintain a subway system that makes sense?
Speaking of the Blue Line:
I just returned from a 3-week vacation in Lithuania, and made connections at O'Hare in both directions. While I didn't ride the L, I did ride from Terminal 1 to the International Terminal on the People Mover, and in one instance observed a solid 8-car train of 2200-series cars bound for the Loop. (I couldn't tell if it was full.) It marked the first time I had ever seen a solid 2200-series train anywhere, and while I was thrilled to see it, I had to wonder how anyone in a wheelchair would have felt. What happened to that arrangement of having at least one set of 2600s running in a train of 2200s?
BTW, I take it you've never tried to board a 7 train in New York after a Mets game. Those trains may be empty when they pull into Willets Point, but by the time they leave, they're packed - all 11 cars (10 during the summer months).
I live in Minneapolis and will be arriving in NYC at JFK on Friday evening (7ish). I want to catch a subway to 155 W. 20th in Manhattan (Chelsea). Is there a subway schedule available online. As I understand, the A train will get me to 14th in Manhattan direct from the airport. I need to know approximately how long this will take for purposes of making plans with some people I will be meeting there. If there is not a time schedule online is there an information line I can call?
Thanks,
Ivan
If there is a schedule online, it is probably not terribly accurate. From experience, though I can tell you that the trip will probably take about an hour.
Some other comments, though. If you're going to 20th Street, you will have slightly less distance to walk if you transfer (across the platform) at 14th Street to the C or E local one stop to 23rd Street. In fact, 155 W. 20th Street is between Sixth and Seventh Avenues, so you should transfer (across the platform) at Jay Street to the F and take that to 23rd and Sixth. The transfer should not add considerably to the travel time and will save some shlepping of luggage. You could, alternatively, transfer at Chambers Street to the 2/3, transfer again at 14th Street to the 1/9, and take that one stop to 18th and 7th, but the Chambers Street transfer involves some climbing, and this would almost certainly take longer than the A/F route.
I don't think there is a schedule on-line. But it would be worth calling MTA at 718-330-1234 for a schedule. I've used the A to get to the airport and I found the schedule they gave over the phone to be pretty accurate.
I would allow for ample time - more than 1 hour. The ride itself should take about 45 min from Howard Beach (JFK) to 14th St. The subway usually leaves Howard Beach at 20 min. intervals. But to get to Howard beach you have to take either the A or B long term parking shuttle (depending on what terminal you arrive at). These busses don't run all that frequently. About every 15 minutes. Then the trip takes 10 to 15 min from your terminal to the Subway station (again depending on what terminal you arrive at).
Add it all up and you have about a 1.5 hour trip. Yes, it's a pain, but you'll be saving yourself $28.50 over a cab - and won't really take much longer.
Schedules are available on-line for all services through the MTA Home Page. Here's the schedule for the A Train.
Schedules are most accurate at and near departure terminals, since trains begin their runs at predetermined times. As you go deeper into the routes, they are more prone to error as events overtake the schedules.
The online schedule contains a general overview for A frequency along the bulk of the route - but it doesn't contain detail after the route splits at 88 St. (Boyd Ave.). None of the links for detailed schedules are currently active. Either there a problems with the server or they just haven't been posted yet.
Anyway, frequency from Howard Beach (on the Far Rockaway branch of the A) is typically about ever 20 min. mid-day mid week and about every 12 minutes during rush hour. I could be a lot less frequent on weekends so call MTA to find out.
And don't forget about the weekly service disruption notices
Here is an alternate way to get there. At JFK Airport take either the Q10 bus to Union Turnpike or the Q3 bus to 179 St-Jamaica. Then take the F train to 23 St. and 6th Avenue in Manhattan (not "23-Ely" which looks similar, in Queens). The F runs more frequently as does the Q10.
THE CHASE SCENE IN THE FRENCH CONNECTION WAS FILMED ON THE WEST END B LINE BUT IF YOU LOOKED CLOSELY YOU CAN SEE THE DESTINATION SIGNS READ N LINE JUST A LITTLE TRIVIA TO PASS ALONG TO EVERYONE
Righto, and the so-called "N" train was an R42, led by #4572.
Wayne
The reason for the N signs in the movie is because the R-42s chosen for filming - 4572 and 4573 - were normally assigned to the N line and did not have B signs. The moviemakers insisted on clean cars, and car washers were out of service because the filming took place between January and March of 1971. It's safe to assume that 4572 and 4573 were the cleanest cars available. The graffiti epidemic had not hit yet.
One other trivia note: if you look close in the sequence where the car Hackman is driving is smashed into just as he rounds the corner from Stillwell Ave. to 86th St., the train above Hackman is made up of R-32s.
hey steve where did u get yor info. nice job one more for u do u remember what station stairway did hackman shoot the french suspect on ????
It was 62nd Street station, I believe.
Wayne
Most likely 62nd St. It's the only other express stop on the West End line besides Bay Parkway, specifically, on the elevated structure. To answer your other question, I scrutinize subway footage in movies with a fine-toothed comb. If you review the footage enough times, you start to see minor details. For example, in that chase sequence, you'll note that in some scenes the train is on the center track, interspersed with scenes in which the train is on the local track.
FYI, the chase scene was filmed under the West End El along Stillwell Avenue, then 86th Street to about 18th Avenue.
I've been noticing book dealers listings during the past few weeks are showing "Interborough Fleet" by Joe Cunningham. Prices have ranged from $34.00+/- to $49.00.
Has anyone out there had any experience with this book?.
The Shoreline musuem has several copies in the gift shop and I was looking at one last week. It looks like a good book with lots of pictures and its a pretty thick book. The price however was a little steep and I'm not a big big fan of the older cars. Maybe Ill get one this Friday when I go back to the musuem.
Thanks Fernando
Sounds like I'd be interested in it. Those are the trains of my childhood. I regret not taking picture.
The differences in quoted price startles me. About 16 bucks. The lowest I seen is from a dealer that I've dealt with in the past and have found to be quite reliable
Fernando (or anyone else): Please keep me in mind should you ever encounter ANYONE who collects bus destination signs, even if they are not of the trading variety. I want to know where this stuff ended up.
Thanks.
Get it, Marty. It's a good book, and I think it's worth it for the pictures alone. It's in the same style as the Greller "Subway Cars of the BMT" and "NYC Subway Cars" books, although with older pictures.
On the flip sise, there isn't a great deal that's new in the text though, and some of the car drawings overlap what you'd find in the recent NY Transit Museum compendium of subway cars. And regarding the text itself, there are, IMHO, an unacceptable number of misspellings. Not too much proofreading went into the book before it was published.
--Mark
Thanks for the comments Mark.
Can't pass up any photos. I might be in them..
NYC Subway Cars has a lot of grammatical errors, too. I agree: it is unacceptable.
Interborough Fleet is very interesting, IMHO. It even has a photo of 3352 on the side of a road on a flatbed truck being readied for the trip "to its new home" at Seashore. One section alludes to the TA's eagerness to retire the Hi-Vs with manual doors first, referring to those doors as "brutal".
Subway Cars of the BMT is also interesting. It has photos of shiny, brand-spanking new BMT standards. It also mentions that the Triplex units were poorly maintained, and survived mainly because of excellent design.
Hi,
Some sites have been denied posting privledges as of today.
If you have any questions regarding your posting privledges feel free to drop me a line. I think those involved probably know who they are.
-Dave
David,
It's sad that you had to take this kind of action, but I feel you have done the right thing. Thanks for keeping SubTalk a sane place for traction buffs and railfans to share information.
"You da man"----Dave, I whole-heartedly support you---Subtalk was created for a very specific purpose and those who try to expoit it and turn it into something it isn't should be banned....Transit buffs and rail fans are a rare breed and should have a place such as this to share their knowledge.-------Thank You.
Dave -
Thank you for your intervention into the "situation" that developed over the past few days. We railfans have been known to "disagree", however, it seems some individual(s) escalated it to a new degree (low).
I enjoy the dialog that SubTalk affords. I’ve said this before. And I would say that I fully support any action taken on your part to deny access to anyone who abuses common courtesy and decency.
I got a rare look at the controls of a Forest-Hills bound train while in operation today (the operator didn't close the curtain), and watched the maximum speed lights under the speedometer indicate what the limit was for the particular zone we were in. Does anyone have more information on how the system works? If the motorman is going 40 in a 40 zone, and enters a 25 zone, will the train slow itself automatically? Also, where else is it used, besides Boston? I was told this system also exists on the red line, but the red line seems to go faster, especially from Braintree to Columbia. Anyone know the speed limits on this stretch?
Chicago has the same system. There is a vertical speedometer on the motorman's right side, between the front and side windows. A needle indicates actual speed and the lit portion of the speedometer shows maximum allowable speed. If the actual needle crosses outside the lit area, a loud BEEEEEP (audible outside the motorman's cab) sounds until the speed is reduced. If it is not reduced after a few seconds, the brakes kick in, quickly but not suddenly like emergency brakes.
As to how it works, I'm not sure, but since the speed limit is different in different areas, I would presume the train is receiving a radio signal with the maximum allowable speed from trackside transmitters and adjusting the lights on the speedometer accordingly.
Ok - Here is the lowdown on the ASC - ATO system in Boston
There are two modes Automatic Train Control (Manual) and Automatic Train Operation (ATO)
In both cases the operator can slow or stop the train anywhere or anytime he wishes. In neither case can he exceed the indicated speed for more than a few seconds.
When in manual operation the operator is given a fixed time to slow to the indicated speed. If he does not respond in time the air is dumped.
In ATO the operator can keep his controller on maximum all the time and the train will adjust its speed to match that called for by the signal system.
In either case station stops are manual, normally the ATO will take the train through the station at 25 mph. The stop signal is the absence of any indication - a failsafe - and requires operator response (or emergency application) in all cases. In the event of a failure, the operator can, with permission, operate a bypass switch under the end of the car, which permits manual operation regardless of the signal indication and a maximum speed of 25 mph. Central control grants clearances to the operator in place of the signal indications.
The Orange Line seems to have fewer problemd than the Red Line, but I still like it better the old way!
sounds like ATO is more of a pain than manual operation. My theory is that management would like complete automation in the future, but for now to make train operation as efficient and safe is to have auto operation with some limits. I guess in the bigger picture/scheme of things for the most economical operation the end is to operate the least amount of equipment with the most amount of people aboard and get that train turned around and do the same in reverse.
patco in philly has full auto controls. the motorperson just closes the door and start the train.
patco in philly has full auto controls. the motorperson just closes the door and start the train.
Amazingly enough, PATCO has worked pretty well from Day Zero. The Red Line installation in Boston is still having teething pains 27 years later! Give me wayside auto-block with trips anyday!
Which part of the Red line? I thought they replaced the signals on the Ashmont rebuild. After it reopened the signals caused a lot of delay.
I have used a ound trip ($3.00) fare card. Are they available for daily, weekly, monthly etc? I have heard that the daily visitors passes are supposed to exist but I have not found them yet.
There is a advertisement in CTA's own brochure outlining downtown transit and specifically mention's visitor's passes in the 1, 2 and 5 day versions.
I have tried to contact CTA via E-mail, regarding when they will be offered, however, they have not given me the courtesy of a response on this and four other direct questions regarding service.
CTA communications, be it in person, via phone or the Internet leave much to be desired.
Good luck, maybe you'll get an answer from them!
The CTA website, under "Visitor Information", states that the Visitor Passes are available now. They also list the sales locations at:
http://www.transitchicago.com/sale-loc.htm
I agree that CTA *communications* is lousy, but the CTA website as a one-way source of info is actually pretty decent, which surprises me considering passenger relations is not a CTA strong point. The info is not frequently updated, but it's as up-to-date as the last (Feb. 1998) Map. The map on the website is actually very useful except for the downtown area, for which it shows only rapid transit, not buses or places of interest.
Here's an interesting point: the Visitor Cards are for sale right in front of the O'Hare station, from a special vending machine next to the usual Transit Card dispensers. Oddly, this most obvious location is not on the list of Visitor Card sales locations on the CTA web site.
Has anyone here tried to obtain a weekly MUNI pass or Combined Muni/BART pass while in San Francisco? They make it damn well near impossible for visitors to buy one since almost all ticket booths are closed on the weekends. And no one who works for Muni (that I encountered) could tell me where an open ticket window was. (No one at my hotel or at the info desks of several shopping centers could tell me either.) Also, combined Muni/Bart passes can only be purchased from Bart vending machines on certain days of the month for a subsequent 2 week period.
I gave up after an hour of wandering around down town from one Muni station to the next and the Transbay Terminal.
The cable car ticket offices (at the terminals of the cable car lines) sell them and they are open all hours the cable cars are running. Also there is an information booth at Hallidie Plaza (um, 5th & Market?) that sells them. This is coincidentally the same location as a cable car terminal but its a seperate booth.
Call 1-415-673-6864 and ask or a brochure describing sales locations for MUNI passes. Or, go to the TransBay Terminal at 1st/Mission Streets in downtown San Francisco, where passes for MUNI, AC Transit, SamTrans and etc., can be bought. Also, MUNI's headquarters at 949 Presidio Avenue @ Geary Boulevard is a good bet (from downtown, take the #38-Geary (or #38L Geary - which makes limited stops) bus direct to MUNI Headquarters.
You're better off calling them instead of using e-mail. They don't answer it. I was in Chicago last year and e-mailed them a question regarding their policy on photography in the system. They never responded so I called them to get the info.
The number:
Customer Service Hot Line - for complaints, commendations, suggestions, inquiries.
Open at all times.
Telephone: 1-888-YOUR-CTA or 1-888-968-7282
TTY: 1-888-CTA-TTY1 or 1-888-282-8891
Fax: (312) 432-7138
--Mark
Good luck finding them. When I called the CTA before my trip to Chicago in February, I asked which stations with parking lots sold the daily visitor's pass (since I was driving into the city but wanted to use CTA to get around once I was there). After a bit of hemming and hawing, I was informed that all stations on the Orange Line south of the Loop sold them, and many of those stations had parking lots.
So, off I went to some random Orange Line station. I parked the car, walked into the station, and was informed that the only Orange Line station selling visitor's passes was the Midway Airport station. At that point I gave up.
I hope when NYC begins offering daily passes they can be purchased at any station. Travelers rarely begin their trips at midtown touristy areas even if they're going to one.
I am looking for the information on;
passenger information display techniques used in most recent
subway train/station) like LCD, Video, Computer...
Can anyone help me how to get these information, please let me know.
Any thing related with these Information is welcome
(i.e., Web site, Publications, persons name...)
Thank you in advance.
I just ran across the posts about this new unlimited pass for the NYC subway, but I can find no reference to it on the MTA home page. Where can I go to read about it?
Incidentally, even before I ran across all these posts, I was thinking to myself that it was a crying shame that there was no unlimited riding pass for NYC like in about every European city I had ever been to. I'm moving to NYC in September, and I was already thinking about how my riding habits would be influenced by that fact that I did not have an unlimited pass.
One of the nice things about the NYC subway system is that there is a flat fare to ride to all stations (no zoning), but perhaps this has led to a situation in which there is not enough funding for the expansion of the system into new areas.
Anyway, I'm glad to hear about this unlimited pass, but I sure would like to know where I can go on the we to read more about it.
Unfortunately you are correct Matt, the MTA has not updated their Website as of this date. The weekly and Monthly (30 Day) passes are scheduled to go on sale July 4. Several "Posters" are Agents of MTA and are posting what they learn in class.
Unfortunately, if you read the papers, ypou begin the realize that political forces are at work behind the scenes. I honestly feel that the City, The State,and The MTA have not yet reached agreement on all the issues involved. I certainly don't want to cast doubts on what the agents are passing on to us. I think they are caught in the middle. Being a bit impatient, I am annoyed by the delay that is being demonstrated on the MTA WebSite. Perhaps they are still meeting hourly to develop answers to questions.
Not to offend anyone in Philly, but just for interest's sake, are any of the SEPTA cars relatively new? Could they run on the IND/BMT?
The Market/Frandkford line isn't standard gauge so I don't know if it is worth regauging trucks for use on the NYC subway. The Broad St Line cars might run ok ....
--Mark
The Broad Street Subway is BMT/IND compatible. But the signs would have to be reconfigured, since they are glass signs with pre-written terminal names written.
I find it amazing that a state-government-run agency like SEPTA can claim that it is going to go out of business. There IS no business. It is not designed to make a profit. What they are really worried about is that the upper management will get kicked out and new people put in. I am not choosing sides in the strike, but I find it hard to believe that the transit system will wither away. But a stronger management may take over. Who knows??? I just hope it's all running when I'm there in a couple of weeks.
Yes SEPTA can go out of business.
If I'm not mistaken, much of the regional transit system -- the regional rail -- is still running. According to 1990 data I got for Downtown Philly, 19.4 percent got there by bus or trolley, 11.2 percent by commuter rail, 6.7 percent by walking, 11.8 percent by carpool, 36 percent by car -- and just 13.6 percent by subway or elevated.
The subway isn't nearly as important in Philly as in NYC. SEPTA could auction off the buses, and the City could simply use its SEPTA subsidies to pay private bus companies to operate the routes. If SEPTA is efficient and Local 234 is underpaid, the subsidies would have to increase. But if SEPTA is inefficient and Local 234 is overpaid (relative to its riders and other taxpayers), subsidies could either be reduced or buy more service.
Philly could add enough buses to make up for the lost subway and trolley lines. It is much easier to hire people who can build and maintain buses than it is to find people who can maintain and operate electric rail systems. All you need enough additional buses to move is about 26,000 more workers per day. Off peak, Philly probably has enough buses already.
Moreover, Philly continues to lose jobs -- it lost 20,400 from 1993 to 1997, after having lost 83,300 from 1987 to 1993. The streets are less crowded, so moving people by bus is not as difficult as in NYC.
So this is no joke.
You said that in Philly "The streets are less
crowded, so moving people by bus is not as difficult as in NYC. " This is somewhat true but doesn't take into account that philly streets in Center City, North Philly, West Philly, and South Philly are about 1/3 the width of streets in NY.
Nightowl Busses that replace Subway service after midnight typically take more than twice as long to trace these subway routes - and that's with NO traffic.
Also, keep in mind the volume of buses that would be needed on the already overtaxed streets of Center City if the buses replaced the El and Subway. A visit to a place like Frankford Terminal, Olney Terminal, Broad/Erie, 69th Street Terminal, 52nd Street (with ONE bus route crossing there - you should see the volume of transferring passengers!) would show that the El and Subway would be greatly missed if they weren't there.
Additionally, all the buses from outlying points would have to traverse other overcrowded streets to get from those points to Center City and vice versa. The slower trip time would also factor into the mix to the detriment of mobility.
Of course, one can make the argument that the Route C bus, which is the busiest on SEPTA's City Division (and is actually two separate routes), serves exactly the same territory as the Broad Street Subway and therefore it makes little sense to duplicate the service, so the 40,000+ riders per day on the C could be accommodated on the subway. Actually, with the constraints on the subway that exist today, it would be hard-pressed to handle this added load.
I never said that the subways could or could not be replaced by busses. SEPTA "going out of business" means "no transit service" since they run the busses and trains and streetcars. That's why I think it would never actually go out of business, though they maybe would break it up or become a different organization. The SEPTA people claim that public transit might "wither away" in their words.
Anyway, I also think that the survey may have included people who take NJ Transit busses into Philadelphia. Because almost everyone who takes a subway train takes a bus to it, the survey may have been unclear. But anyway, there are not that many busses that go into Center City compared to the number that connect with the subway lines.
Be that as it may, I think the union and SEPTA are making big mistakes and employees and employers may, as was stated by the previous poster, include this strike in their next assessments of where to open an office, where to work, where to move to, etc. This would not be good for the City of Philadelphia.
While some employers are moving back to Center City, a good example of the current attitude toward transit (and the lack of being transit dependent) is the current renovation of 6 Penn Center. For those of you who have yet to crack the "Penn Center code", it is an office building on 17th St between Market St and Kennedy Blvd. It housed PRR, PC and Conrail offices until Conrail moved to Commerce Square a few blocks west.
A law firm is committed to much of the building. To seal the deal, however, the firm insisted on on-site parking for its higher-ups. Thus, the 1950's era "cardboard box" office building, typical of Penn Center structures, had its first 6 floors turned into a parking garage. This is ludicrous given that Suburban Station is diagonally across Kennedy Blvd from the building (and has direct underground access) and is two blocks west of the City Hall/15th St nexus of the Broad St subway, Market-Frankford el, and subway-surface cars. I guess lawyers are too important to ride transit with those whom they represent!
I don't find it amazing at all. Last year, Metro Magazine published an article on funding, The Urban Mass transit Act, and how section 11C was going to drive many older systems to privitization in order to shed antiquated and oppressive contracts and work rules. Briefly, 11c provides that UMTA funding cannot be used to buy new technology if implementation of that technology will cost the loss of any jobs.
In the same way, an oppressive strike can force a municiple agency to prrivitization when there seems no common ground can be reached. This is especially true if the service is under-utilized or losing money.
Even though a lot of us have a keen interest in the NYC subway system the question keeps coming up; Just how safe is it for tourists to tour the system? Given the social atmosphere of today do we need guides? Are any available? Are most outer areas of the lines not recomended for tourists? Have we been watching too much NYPD Blue?
Virtually all the crime takes place in the stations, especially at times when they are little-used. If you board at busy Manhattan stations and ride to the terminals, your chancee of being victimized is virtually nil 24 hours a day. If you avoid the two big bands of poverty in the city -- in Brooklyn north of the IRT New Lots line and east of the Canarsie Line, and in northern Manhattan/the South Bronx -- you can exit any station during the day, and your chances of being victimized are virtually nil.
New York City's crime rate is now lower than the U.S. average. In general, you are safe anywhere there is a crowd, and at risk in isolated locaitons. Watch out for pickpockets, however.
In guarding against pickpockets, one general rule applies: don't keep your wallet in your hip pocket. You're asking for trouble if you do. Keep your wallet in a front pants pocket or inside jacket pocket.
Yes, you have been watching too much NYPD Blue. I have visitors come from different countries and they tell me they were expecting graffiti covered trains & muggings all the time but instead find relatively clean & safe trains. I suppose they were watching too many films from the 1970s. I guess Hollywood never liked NYC.
As in any large city, some areas are not recommended after night or at least additional caution should be used. Please don't get the idea that Manhattan is good & the outer boroughs bad. There are parts of Manhattan I think that are far worse. In fact, large parts of Queens, Brooklyn, and the Bronx are much nicer and safer.
If you're not sure, a general rule of thumb, if it's after 8 or 9PM, take a cab or a bus.
If you speak English, you have no need for a guide. Pick up an inexpensive tour book, choose where you want to go & use the subway to get you there. It's fast, inexpensive & efficient.
I would recommend that you avoid looking too much much like a tourist (and thereby a potential target). On the trains or streets, don't flash money & jewelery & put away those expensive cameras & camcorders. If you have a question concerning a particular area or destination, please email me & I'll try to answer it.
I support what BFByrne posted. Only if you make yourself a target is when you'll get into difficulty. In many cases, it's from someone who has followed you for a while then decided to roll you. A good tool to use when touring the subway other than the map wouild be aone of the many subway publications in circulation. It's been almost 5 years since I've seen our subway and I"m gonna take a refresher tour when I get back to NYC.
Gonzo
I, Mr. Express Addict, generally recommend sticking to local trains if an individual is not familiar with New York's subway system. At least that way you don't run the risk of missing your stop because "nobody told me it was an express". I agree with not giving yourself away in terms of being a tourist. Do your map homework in advance. Try to give the impression that you know where you're going and don't walk around gazing up at the skyscrapers.
> How safe is it for tourists to tour the system?
I guess this is a matter of perception, though the fact is the subway is safer now that it's been in a long long time.
> Given the social atmosphere of today do we need guides? Are any
> available?
Guides aren't necessary, although if you do want a guided tour of the system, call the Transit Museum and get their tour schedules.
> Are most outer areas of the lines not recomended for tourists? Have
> we been watching too much NYPD Blue?
Add to Larry Littlefield's "not recommended" list the Frankln Ave shuttle in Brooklyn.
--Mark
If anyone is interested Here are two good websites
NY DIVISION OF THE ELECTRIC RAILROADERS ASSOCIATION
http://members.aol.com/rob110178/era/home.html
THE URBAN TRANSIT CLUB
http://members.aol.com/Glenn6398/index.html
IF YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS FEEL FREE TO EMAIL ME
I just returned to Boston from a day trip to NYC. Since most of my trips there are on weekends, this was an unusual weekday opportunity to ride an express! So instead of the Q-33 to [E] from LGA, I took the Q-48 to the <7>. Nice ride... but that's another program.
There are new brochures available in subway stations that explain all about the new, unlimited ride Metrocards. The facts which our SubTalk posters (such as SubwayBuff) have given us explained in detail, including "rules of use": "Although Unlimited Ride Metrocard cannot be passed back to others for multiple entries, you can lend it to others when you're not using it." ...and... "Unlimited Ride Metrocards may not be transferred to another person until the completion of the trip for which entry was obtained. The acceptance or solicitation of compensation for use of an Unlimited Ride Metrocard by other than authorized agents of MTA New York City Transit is prohibited."
The brochure confirms that weekend and monthly cards are available now, but does not make mention of daily cards. It talks about the current 18-minute restriction on reuse (anywhere) but says that by fall, it will only apply to the same station/bus route.
The brochures are in English and Spanish, and I saw them in most stations I visited today.
Do the brochures explain where you can buy the new Unlimited Metrocard (is that what is being called?) Will you be able to get them at every station? Will you be able to get them by mail?
The brochure says you can buy the Unlimited Metrocards at token booths and at neighborhood retail outlets -- just like the value cards. There is no mention of any mail option.
Matt, et. al.,
You CAN get some of the MetroCards by mail, but not from the TA:
Call 718-445-3100, press #1 (your credit card or check)
by mail to Queens Surface Corp, 128-15 28th Ave, Flushing, NY 11354
Attn: MetroCard Sales (enclose your check)
Also if one of other "privates" (NY Bus Serv/Liberty/Triboro/Green/
Jamaica/Command) is more convient, try them, some also sell MC.
For the above:
NOW you can buy value card for $30, incl $3.00 bonus value
NEXT WEEK (not before) the $120 unlim Express card (don't have yet)
P.S. I don't think we take foreign checks, but call & ask.
P.P.S. I'm not assoc. with sales so don't ask for me, thanks.
Mr t__:^)
One important note: *if* you buy a card before July 4, 1998 and try to use it the farebox or turnstile (NYCT at least) will reject the card as not yet valid (SOURCE: Official NYCT Bulletin.)
The cards can not be used until 12:01AM on 7/4/1998. Another reminder: You can not refill these cards and you can not combine the unlimited cards and cards with rides on them unless you have a reduced fare metrocard which can mix time (7 day or 30 day) and value (1 ride, ten rides etc.). You can not convert a value-based (per ride) card to an unlimited- you must buy a new card.
***Very important: if there is a problem with the card, station agents can not fix the cards. The best we can do is give you a prepaid envelope to send to Jay Street***(SOURCE: Official NYCT Bulletin).
To answer the question about Reduced Fare metrocards(RFMs) on Express bus: I am still awaiting official info. I will post when I find out the info. However, if you have a RFM, you can add unlimited for half fare--in other words, the $120 Express Bus Monthly would cost $60. If you have time and value on your RFM, the time (7 day, etc) would be used first. I have ordered a scanner. When it comes I will scan the two unlimited MetroCard brochures and send to Dave or whoever else wants the files.(please- no e-mail yet, I'll post a message that the files are available and then you can e-mail me.)
Correction/additional comment to your reply:
-Value cards CAN be re-filled & fixed (replaced)
-Time cards you are absolutely correct
-Time cards, we're not selling until next week because they won't
work until 7/4 & we don't want to get the calls from folks trying to use them too soon, also we don't think a lot our customers will want them, if we're right that means the TA was wrong ... hmm
-RFM ... please see one of my prev replys, i've seen the "official" messages that will display and what the TA says they mean. Basically Sr/Disabled have value removed, if value left or add coins when they board a Express bus (applies Peek & Off-peek).
Mr t__:^)
DOES ANYBODY REMEMBER THE OLD DESTINATION SIGNS THAT WERE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE R42 CARS?IT LISTED ALL THE STOPS ALONG THE SPECFIC LINE AND ALSO TRANSFER POINTS TO OTHER LINES I WONDER WHY THE TA STOPPED USING THIS TYPE OF SIGN?? I THOUGHT IT WAS VERY USEFUL ESPECIALLY FOR TOURISTS THAT HAVE TROUBLE USING THE TA MAPS
yeah.........I agree. Just like my R46's. The same thing especially the E and F lines.
The 'strip map' signs were only displayed on the interior portion of the sign and I agree, they were very useful. They were first on the 40s and ended with the 46s.
Every month, each maintenance shop does a Passenger Environment Survey and customers are asked about things like climate control, lights, maps and signs. (PA & Door Chimes too). If enough people suggest it, perhaps the strip-maps will make a comback.
Actually, they have made a comeback of sorts on the #2 line. I've seen them at the ends of the redbirds that serve the line. They show each stop and available transfers. I recall that they even showed some bus transfers, too.
Less recent to that, they were above the doors on the #7 line. I have one hanging in my office (over the door, of course).
I thought the reason they were removed was that it made equipment changes more difficult because not all the equipment had signs for all the lines (the sign rolls were too long). Remember how many times an R-42 would show up with nothing more than a blank (white) front end sign.
--Mark
Agreed - the strip maps were useful. I certainly remember them. Problem was that whever a service change occurred, the map could be obsolete - if not for the route itself, but also for the transfer points. And now, with so many service changes occurring due to construction projects (e.g., Lenox Ave Reroutings), the problem of obsolete strip maps would be worse.
Another problem was that the roll signs themselves were limited to a few routes, so if equipment swaps were done between yards, it was sometimes impossible to display correct route indications.
One big difference (now versus 10 years or more ago) is that NYC Transit issues revised maps whenever service changes occur, even temporary ones like the Lenox project. Years ago you were lucky to find a token booth with any map, obsolete or otherwise. The new MTA regional map, with its bus connections and commuter rail routes, is better than any strip map.
Strip maps DO exist on the IRT - on Redbirds, they're over the car end doors, on 62's and 62A's, they're just above the drop ceiling at either end of the car. The IRT has the equipment pretty well segregated by line and car number. They would have to do the same for the "B" division, where car-swapping seems to be much more common.
I remember the IND/BMT strip maps very well. When R42's first began to appear, back in 1969, I'd take a train ride or two every month and try and hunt them down on different routes as they made their debuts. Back then, R42's were indeed segregated by car number and route. They'd have to re-institute this policy. Perhaps removable strip maps, like they have on the Redbirds are the answer. Cardboard's not the greatest thing in the world, but it IS cheaper than Mylar. Plus, if a car were to go from, say, the L to the J, the strip map(s) could be stored in the cab, or under a seat and substituted as needed.
The strip maps are much harder to maintain & are more of an expensive outlay, but should be considered for a comeback. On the R40 modifieds & R42's all you'd need is JMLZ. It's unlikely these cars will be transfered elsewhere. What may be better in the long run is taking the R44/46 digital sign one step further: Have a strip map flashing in sections according to the length of the line in conjunction with the destination. In other words the F currently has 3 sections: 1) 6th Ave. local 2) Queens Exp. 3) To Coney Island. To add, say 3 more sections or whatever to this program to include strip maps from 179 to Coney Island in 3 or more segments may be an idea for the future or in future cars.
The R-110Bs had strip maps printed on, I think, cardboard. This is a less expensive solution than rigging the LCD signs to flash 6 items (train destination and strip map stuff). NYC Transit has to change the car maps anyway when service changes occur; they could just as easily replace a cardboard strip map mounted with the advertisements.
--Mark
Digital is better for trains that change into another route while in service, as an emergency reroute, or in the Z returning from Broad in the AM as a J. Changing cardborad signs would be very time consuming (cranking the rollsigns is enough as it is, and often you can see where all the signs were not changed). So even the LED backed plastic strip (with a particular route printed theron) of the R110 would not be as good as a complete digital strip.
(Digital is better for trains that change into another route while in service, as an emergency reroute, or in the Z returning from Broad in the AM as a J.)
Why not just keep it as the Z and run it back to Jamaica? Seems like a waste of time and energy to switch all roll signs around.
Just "advertise" the Z as a Rush-Hours only train as follows:
AM Peak - Express to Manhattan, Local to Jamaica
PM Peak - Express to Jamaica, Local to Manhattan.
Seems a lot easier and less time consuming than changing roll signs.
But then that's the same as the J (there is no skip stop in reverse peak direction). The best thing would be to have digital signs, where they could be changed in no time with the push of a button.
After the Z gets to Broad St. in the AM rush, it retuns from Manhattan and drops out at Eastern Pkwy. and lays up to ENYD.(all but the first Z). The ridership to Jamaica after the AM rush does not justify it going all the way back to Jamaica, then return lite to ENYD. In the afternoon all but one Z starts at Eastern Pkwy. or Chauncey St.(if the train is on the deck) goes in service to Broad, returns to Jamaica as a Z, then lays up from Jamaica, or if certain J's have to go to ENY for inspections, etc. that Z will now become a J as trains are swapped. Hoped I didn't confuse the readership!
[ Back then, R42's were indeed segregated by car number and route.]
Believe it or not, this was not the TA's original plan. They wanted all the R-42s to go to a very few (maybe even one) route(s). They ended up being disbursed throughout the former BMT lines and could be easily found mated with R-32s and R-38s. The reason for the disbursement was political. The R-42s were the first order of all air-conditioned cars, and every political constituent wanted them for their lines. The TA ended up disbursing them to fill this "need".
--Mark
Yes, back then, the segregation of fleets was done by roll sign, or so it seemed. One had the E & F only. Another had just the RR. Another the EE, GG, & N. Then there was the A, AA, B< CC, & D; one just for the CC & D, and then finally, the Eastern Division, with the QB added (why?).
When the R44s and R46s came on, they went to 3 configurations:
A, AA, B, CC, D, RR
E, EE, F, GG, N
J, LL, M, N, QB
Thanks for the information!
Here's an addendum: Unit number ranges as originally established:
These are from my original numbers books, circa 1969-1970.
Slant R40............E & F only
R40M.................E, F, EE & GG
R42:
4550-4599............N, RR
4600-4699............A, AA, B
4700-4805............D
4806-4849............RR
4850-4899............QJ, QB, M
4900-4925............KK, LL, M
4926-4949............E, F (later went to Eastern Division)
I never saw an R42 on the CC line. Only R1's, R4's and R6's.
The R42's on the KK and LL were rare.
If I remember correctly, the window signs were originally printed in the line's color. Then somewhere along the way, there was a change in service, and new window signs were created, using only black ink.
This primarily affected the Eastern Division cars, I think.
That confirms the explanation for the N designation on R-42s 4572 and 4573 which were used in The French Connection.
If there were only 25 R-42s allocated to the Eastern Division, then I was lucky indeed. I vivdly remember riding them on the LL on Saturdays in 1969-70.
Your list also explains why the slant R-40s ran only on the E and F lines.
At the VERY BEGINNING of their debuts, maybe a month or two at most
in the Summer of 1969, some of what I believe are R40M's showed up
on the LL. Monday, August 4, 1969 found me at the front window of
Car #4300 (now #4500), bound from Broadway Junction to Rockaway Parkway. It was ICE COLD, polar bear special. (Temp outside: 96 degrees at 11 AM) In the R42 page (subway car index) you can also see #4291(now #4491) in service on the LL. They were shipped off to the
"E", "EE", "F" and "GG" - some of them even wound up with wierd
car numbers like "AS19" and "CB22" before eventually being renumbered
yet again. Nov.4 1969 (Election Day) I saw CB22 CB23 CB32 CB20 CB21
AS24 AS21 AS20 CB34 CB35 ALL on "EE" line during day trip to city
with Mom & Dad. So says my numbers book from way back then which
I still have. By this time, Eastern Div. "LL" had only the few
4900-series cars, shared with the "KK", and the rest of it was
R-7 and R-9, plastic seats in car #1500 up ONLY (#1400 series still
had wicker and red leatherette which originally came out of R16).
Ditto for "M" except they shared a few R42s with the "QJ".
FOOD for Post: Why did they use these oddball numbers for R40M?
Somewhere in my drawer I have a picture of #4500 ex #4300 at the old
wooden E 105th St. station. If I ever find it I WILL SCAN IT
and SEND IT TO DAVE P.
Wayne
Love that "L" train!!!
No argument here. It's quite possible that what I saw and rode were R-40Ms. It wasn't until 1980 that I first heard about contract numbers. Your point about the R-7s and R-9s from 1500 and up sounds right, too. As I recall, their interiors were blue, and the doors were finished in light blue on the inside. Also, the storm doors had split windows - only the R-1s and R-4s had storm doors with one large window. It's ironic: I rode the R-7/9s more on the Canarsie line than I ever did on the IND.
Not only did the R-7/R-9 dominate on the Canarsie Line, they made up
almost the entire "KK" fleet, plus also more than half of the "M"s
and even quite a few "QJ"s. Aug 1 1971 - lightning struck the rear
car of a R-7/R-9 "QJ" at the Cleveland Street Station (hit the gate)
I was riding up in the third car and this incident caused quite a
commotion; fortunately, nobody was injured. Think the car hit was
#1540, don't quote me on that. We waited nearly an hour under the
old shed in the pouring rain with lightning dancing all round us.
Wayne
Don't forget there were a few on the EE, GG, E, F, and D trains. In fact, they were scattered almost everywhere on the IND/BMT .
Oh, yesh, I remember them well...
The ones on the "E", "EE", "F" (I remember THEM TOO well!) and "GG"
were R-6's (whose unit numbers went up to 1399). The only R-7
I saw there were from 1400-1449, with 1450 and UP going to Eastern
Division. The OLDER ones (R-4) were "CC" and "D" trains (9-12-70
saw THIS creaky old "D" roll into Kings Hwy):
561, 508, 613, 530, 553, 778, 425, 695, 608, 618
Also occasionally a "QB" would show up with R-4s.
The REALLY OLD ones (R-1) what were left of them were also "CC"
and occasionally on the "B". They were mostly gone by late 1970.
Note that there were numerous exceptions to this allocation.
I never saw a R-1/9 on "N" or "RR", and only rarely on the "A"
or "AA". (If they were on the "A" they were R-6; "AA" was R-4).
I used to refer to them as "lemons" (because they'd break down often
- spent an hour on an "E" stuck outside of 7th Ave. 11-29-68; car 991)
and a friend of mine who rode with me started calling the plastic-seat
jobs (1500 and up) "limes".
Ah the memories... I MISS THE OLD TRAINS!
Wayne
You and me both. By the late 60s and early 70s, the R-1/9s received little, if any, maintenance, since they were slated for replacement. Sticking doors became commonplace, although I never saw a door stick on the Canarsie R-7/9s. Some of the R-9s were repainted silver and blue, but I never rode one of those.
I seem to recall that the few R-1/9 A trains I rode must have had R-1 or R-4 cars, because the first car never had headlights (now THAT was fun - not being able to see the track!). The same holds true for the R-1/9 D trains I rode; the last time was in late 1969. The last time I rode an R-1/9 A train was in January of 1970.
The thing I remember the most about the R-7/9s on the Canarsie was that the train I took out of 8th Ave. about 8:30 AM every Saturday almost always had the same motorman and conductor. Is this common on other lines?
Not sure if that was commonplace - however, I DO remember a
conductor with a British accent on the "F" line in '73 and '74 -
he seemed to always have the same train (about the 7:57 out of
179th St.) So I guess the crew schedules have something to do with
it.
Here's a blue and silver "lime" - 1709. It even had a light ("lime?")
green interior! Saw this beast on "QJ" and also on "KK".
Last R1/9 "A" I saw was R-4: (sample: 442, 848, 827, 883, 833, 522,
618, 731, 717, 538.) Summer of '70.
Wayne
There were also many on the CC. In fact, I think some of the oldest cars (R1's) were all assigned to the CC.
Read my post of 7-24-98 23:37 for a "compleat brakedown" (sic) of
where all the oldtimers lived.
Wayne
Those AS and CB car numbers were for brake shoe tests, I don't remember what they codes stood for, but it was vital that the cars not get mixed up with each other or other non test cars.
Quoted from original:
"E", "EE", "F" and "GG" - some of them even wound up with wierd
car numbers like "AS19" and "CB22" before eventually being renumbered
yet again. Nov.4 1969 (Election Day) I saw CB22 CB23 CB32 CB20 CB21
AS24 AS21 AS20 CB34 CB35 ALL on "EE" line during day trip to city
with Mom & Dad. So says my numbers book from way back then which
I still have. By this time, Eastern Div. "LL" had only the few
4900-series cars, shared with the "KK", and the rest of it was
R-7 and R-9, plastic seats in car #1500 up ONLY (#1400 series still
had wicker and red leatherette which originally came out of R16).
Ditto for "M" except they shared a few R42s with the "QJ".
FOOD for Post: Why did they use these oddball numbers for R40M?
R-42 QB were technically part of the Eastern Division because for scheduling/employee work program purposes, the QB and M were 1 line, 8 car trains & crews were changed & shared over as needed. The TA got very careless around 1982/83/84 when I was working the D line in that they just didn't care about keeping the cars on the lines for which they had roll signs for. It was not unusual to have the whole train with maybe 2 cars signed up for D, and they were R40 mods. for example. I remember 4582/83 drove me nuts, I made many complaints to the RCI's & dispatchers, but they didn't care about what some rookie motorman had to say: all 4 side signs were signed up for R and the signs were frozen: your sign changer couldn't even bring them blank. I got so frustrated in telling people I was a D train that I eventually made up a paper D sign, and held it against my cab window at every station for the customers to see what train it was. It got down to the point that I was estatic whenever I got an R27/30 or R32, at least they had proper signs.
Tell me something: assuming you've worked on the D line all along, did the R-27/30s you wound up running have proper D bulkhead signs? I remember seeing on more than one occasion a D train of those cars marked as a DD. The R-32s didn't have that problem.
Once I boarded a train of R-1/9s at Broadway-Nassau which had God-knows-what markings. Most of the side route signs were set to S/Special; I don't remember the bulkhead marking. It ran express along 8th Ave. I got off at 42nd St., and watched the train as it pulled out. It turned off onto the Queens branch using the now-unused switch from the express track. It must have been masquerading as an E train, but this was on a Saturday. Maybe the train was on its way back from Aqueduct.
I remember when the R-32s made their debut on the D line. It was right after the Chrystie St. connection opened in 1967, and the cars still had their original bulkhead signs with no color codes (and their side signs were illuminated in green). The AA and B lines also got R-32s for the first time concurrently with the D line.
One other humorous experience I had was when I went back to New York in October of 1984 for the first time since coming out to Colorado. I was noting as many marker light combinations as I could, and was writing down the combination from a D train of R-32s (this was before they were rebuilt) when the motorman started looking at me as if to say, "What the &$%# are you doing?" I explained what I was doing, after which he replied the lights should be right - they were green-white.
The R-42s did have strip signs on the inside of the car which were applied to the inside of the destination roller curtain. The World's Fair R-36s had strip signs above the picture windows. Since they were dedicated almost exclusively to the 7, that was no big deal.
How much is it going to cost to fix the subway door bells which are WAY WAY WAY TOO LOUD? Who is responsible for this faulty equipment? Has anyone been fired yet???
I say forget the old door bells on the R 44 R46 R62 R68, lets just focus on new tones for our future IND and IRT cars.....
Several years ago, I was asked to survey the R-46 fleet for 'loud' door chimes due to a spate of complaints like yours. Two bits of information. The chimes work through the PA system which is supposed to be set to 86 db +/- 2db at 3 feet. Most were at or very close to nominal. Second, the chime on the R-44, R-46, R-68 and R-68A are at least 15db lower than the door bells on the LIRR M-1s and M-3s. Keep in mind, the chime must be heard above the ambient tunnel noise which sometimes exceeds 100db.
As for your last 2 questions, the maintenance shops maintain the cars, R-44 at Pitkin Shop, R-46 at Jamaica Shop, R68A at Coney island Shop and R-68 at Concourse and Coney Island Shops. The chime boxes and PA amplifiers are maintained at the TA's new state-of-the-art Electronics Lab in Woodside. Finally, no one has been fired because of loud chimes.
Are these chimes loud enough?
I like it although it is a little fast. Where did you find the wave? Are there any more?
Thanks!
I didn't "find" the .wav. I made it! Here's how:
(1) Take a microcassette recorder (a.k.a. Dictaphone) and hold it up to the DingDong speaker on the subway car (I used an R-46).
(2) Play back the recorder, holding it close to the microphone on a laptop computer, and record as a .wav file.
(3) Transfer via FTP to the Web site.
(4) voila.... DingDong!
Why do we even need door chimes anyway? Are they required?
Now that the redbirds are moving toward the end of a era, what happens to trains after they are scapped?
As I understand, there are a few possibilities for retired subway car fleets. A few cars may be sent to transit or transportation-related museums. Some may be saved and reserved either for nostalgia purposes, or for use in movies. Others may live out a second life as work trains, while the bulk of the fleet hits the scrapheap.
Examples of most of New York's subway equipment have been preserved. None of the BMT Multisectionals were salvaged, however, nor were any of the Bluebirds. If I'm not mistaken, none of the R-21 or R-22 cars ever wound up at any museums, although some are being used as work trains.
R21 and R22 are kind of plain - aside from their dropdown front
windows, nothing distinctive about them. But it might not be a bad
idea to restore one or two once their days as work cars is done.
Although not much has been said, sources tell me that a few of the R17s, 21s, and 22s were being held for the NY Transit Museum (aside from the R12,15,17, and 33 that are at Court St). How many, I am uncertain of this. It's not official anywhere.
Thanks Todd!! I will do that ASAP.
That's a good idea! I'd like to try that on a really REALLY good screechy curve. I'd have to get a recorder (Radio Shack? Staples?)
and go seek out one of my favorite twists. (City Hall Loop? Graham Avenue? 149th-Concourse on the #5? South Ferry?)
Best screech I've heard lately was on this Slant R40 on the northbound "N" back in 1996, north of Cortlandt Street. OUCH!!! Somebody forgot to true #4179's wheels fer shure. Also any #6 pulling out of BB and entering the loop. #1772 gets a nod for her "singing".
Wayne
The best screech in Boston, by the way, is the Boylston Street station on the Green Line (trolley). A close second is Government Center.
Subway screeches are interesting, if painful at times.
But when you mention trains "singing," I'm something of an expert. I live in downtown Jersey City, in the old Hamilton Park neighborhood, a couple of blocks from the rusty old freight track that runs basically underneath the Turnpike extension.
Years ago, visiting a friend on a hot summer night in the same building where I now live, I first heard the slow, sustained, varying cries of the trains' wheels as they inched along these rails. I remember thinking the sound was very musical, like well-scored whalesong, and as romantic as a steam train's whistle in the distance.
Now that I live there, I still love it, even at three in the morning, although I'm sure some of my neighbors feel differently.
Actually, speaking of steam trains' whistles, I sometimes get to hear one from the NJ Transit Hoboken terminal, when they run those fall foliage tours with the old-time engine.
Guess I'm just lucky.
Tony, I'm with ya man. I live over near Ferris H.S. I can hear the train squealing and the PATH train horns as they blow out of the tunnels. Too hot to keep the windows open now, though :-)
-Dave
Hey Dave!
You should have heard this "L" today - #4402, north of Sutter Avenue
on that double curve - OUCH!!! Positively operatic! And two brave but foolish kids riding out between the slants of 4403 and 4414. I had forgotten all about that curve.
Wayne
What about the chimes that sometimes sound as if it is being played backwards? I've heard this now and then on the R-68's on the D and the Q (when they were running on that line). What is the cause?
Also, can chimes easily be changed or manipulated to be played in different musical notes? Just wondering!
I've also read that the BMT "Bluebirds" were the first subway cars to have chimes. Were they similar to the chimes on the R-44+ ?
R62A #1996 - a classic "dong-ding". My friend Pat at CI (who works with doors) thinks that when the manufacturer made the chime, the little chip inside it was either programmed backwards or installed backwards. This is a guess at best.
The door chimes on those cars which have them are all tuned to E and C, one octave above middle C - supposedly. I say that because I have heard exceptions (D and B flat, for instance). In addition, not all chimes sound at the exact same pitch. I have stood on a platform as the doors are being closed and have heard some god-awful polychords resulting from not all of the cars in the train having identically-pitched door chimes.
Don't forget: this is a musician talking. On the brighter side, the whine of the R-1/9s at speed was always music to my ears. Man, how I miss those cars!
Listen to Soundgarden's "Jesus Christ Pose" (from Badmotorfinger) - right after the first verse is a guitar riff that almost sounds like
an old "E" train in full flight in the E.River tunnel. Plus the
screeching/feedback at the beginning and end of the song...
Soundgarden was from Seattle, so I don't know if any of this was intentional. But it sure sounds real enough.
Wayne (I play guitar, too)
There's a Jimi Hendrix song from the album "The Jimi Hendrix Experience," I forget which one, that starts and/or ends with what sounds like a subway train rolling by at speed.
Hendrix was also, I believe, from the Northwest, but worked (and I think lived) in downtown New York City in his recording days, so I always figured the sound was the NYC subway.
Ah yes, that would certainly be "Third Stone From the Sun".
Part of it sounds like an express train passing a local stop.
The end sounds like a train shuffling off into a tunnel at 15 mph.
Also - Blue Oyster Cult - from the album "Agents of Fortune" (the one
with "Don't Fear the Reaper" on it) at the end of the song
"Morning Final" you can hear what sounds like an R32 or R38
approaching, then coming to a stop. They also immortalized
R-6 #1277 in "Hot Rails to Hell". I have ridden in that car
on three different occasions between 1973 and 1975, all three
times on the "F".
Wayne
I smell a compilation tape!
All songs with sounds of the NYC subway, other subways, and maybe els too. Call it "Underground Rock" or something. I must get my subway fan/audiophile friend Larry to work on it.
I've never heard those BOC cuts; now I'll have to buy the album.
If I run out of subway-sound songs, I could fill in with some of the many songs that feature surface railroad sounds, such as Ozzy O's "Crazy Train."
Also, I could include songs ABOUT the NYC subway, such as that Rod Stewart thing about When I See You Tonight On A Downtown Train, the one about "all those Brooklyn girls." Even though I don't like that one.
Then there are the old-time NYC subway songs from Broadway and Tin Pan Alley.
So what subway-sound songs do I start with?
--Third Stone From the Sun
--Morning Final
--????
I don't know any more. Anyone else know of others?
Why are we obsessing on loud door chimes?
Believe it or not, it's one of the most common Passenger Environment complaint. Right after dirty cars and scratchiti.
As to the argument that the chimes must compete with ambient tunnel noise...
WE NEED LESS NOISE NOT MORE! Only a Transit Authority too bumbling to fix such a simple problem would be capable of coming up with such an explanation as "Were going to fight noise with more noise."
Every time I feel the pain of those chimes it carries me back to the 1970s when the TA just let things go and go and go.
The only reason I can imagine that such a problem could persist is that the TA is trying to ward off overcrowding by making riding conditions intollerable.
If this is the biggest complaint after garbage and scratchiti, then why does the TA not attack the problem with the same vigor?
Maybe the TA could lower the volume on lines that tunnel noise is not so loud. Or maybe they can add a controler (more $) to have the volume increase during rush hour and decrease during latenights (non-rushhour).
If the riding public had any say in Transit Matters, they would get rid of the bells altogether.
Lets have express services to kings highway peak-hours only!
The G line feeds into the local tracks, (and it only uses the exp tracks at 4th av. to change directions), so if the G were extended, it would have to be local.
To avoid irking the Park Slope people why not run the F as Express, skipping stations that they wish to call local, but still using the local tracks, and yes Bergen would be an "express" stop. After Bergen the F could run as a real express with the G as local to Church, switching to the Express track at Church where it would turn back.
There are precendents from running "express on the local" such as the J skipping Bowery during the week.
You don't need to run the F as a local in order for it to stop at Bergen Street - there is a second level underneeth the currently in-use platform that is now used only when they are doing track work.
I knew about the second level. The reason there is no F express nwo is that the people in the area dont want to walk down the stairs.
WILL THE 7 LINE THREE PEAT NEXT YEAR?
Not to mention the fact that the stairways leading to it have been walled over. In order to reopen them, they'd have to undo a lot of that nice new tilework they did there. Myself, I think that this should never have been done - a gate or something like it would do.
And the "F" should definitely be express in Brooklyn, at least during the rush hours.
Are you sure they've been walled over? I thought that's what the shiny steel doors were for.
I don't think a G express is necessary. However, they should be two F train services developed. One to Coney Island, and, the other to Kings highway. The one to Coney Island should be designated for express service Mondays through Fridays AM rush hours to Manhattan and PM rush hours from Manhattan. On the other hand, the Kings Highway service should be local.
The G line should terminate at Church Avenue Everyday 6AM to 12AM.
It would be better if G ran to Kings Highway and F was designated as express to Coney Island. However, F service comes more rapidly because it runs to Manhattan, greatly reducing quality service at the local stations.
If I was a subway engineer, I would have put the A line or another Manhattan division on this line. Bad planning by the New York City Transporatation Authority.
Now you have me wondering - another contributor mentioned this as well. It looks like at at least one access point to the Bergen St.
lower level has been walled over (that being the north end of the
station). The steel doors are at the other end of the station, no?
I will go back there on my next trip (later this month) and get my
facts straight.
Wayne
heres and answer to the problem complete the lower level of Bergen street for passenger service. during rush hours operate F trains from Jay street via lower level at Bergen street (express tracks) so customers can trasnfer to the G Local. Operate the f express to Kings Highway (peak direction) and extend the G to Kings Highway and relay to go north.
Good idea, but if you are a person who is now required to wait for a G local thereby increasing your commuting time, will you be happy?
A simple solution to inadequate G service south of Bergen St. is to add extra trains between Bedford-Nostrand (a three-track turnaround place) and Church Avenue. BUT: the biggest complaint from the people in Red Hook and Carroll Gardens is that so many people would have to take an extra train (for a total of 3) to get to Wall St. AND they have to climb a flight of stairs at Bergen St. to make the change.
I know that logically this seems a minor complaint but when it was tried 30 years ago, the phone of the city councilman from that area rang off the hook from so many complaints. It overwhelmed the appreciation from lower Park Slope the McDonald Avenue people.
If only Bergen Street were not a 2-level station, the world would be completely different.
Browsing through the photos of subway cars, they seem to have been painted in every conceivable colour over the years, and it is hard to tell whether there have ever been standardised liveries, or whether they are standardised now. Am I missing something? Have there ever been periods of colour co-ordination?
True our stainless steel subway cars looked better when they were new. For example the blue doors on the R32's made them look sleek. Same for the blue belly band around the middle of the R44/46 & the thin line around the R38's. It gave each model car an identity, something which is lacking today.
Yes, there was a period from about 1970 to the early 1980s where the MTA "cosmopolitan" look was attempted on all subway cars - silver with the blue strip at the beltline. This was applied to every subway car that could be painted except for the R-32s (fluted stainless steel) and the R-38s and R-40 slants (1/2 fluted stainless steel). Even the R1/9s were painted in this scheme (Yuck! Ptooey!) The R-40Ms, R-42s, R-44s and R-46s came from their builders already equipped with the blue stripe.
(Some would argue that the "graffitti look" was the most standard of all the looks the subway ever had, and it represented the neglect that swept through the system during this same timeframe).
--Mark
Do you think the TA will try this livery again? The blue band would be nice to see again, also being that all-stainless steel tends to be quite bland. Imagine an R-62 with a blue band . . . that should be interesting, since it never did have it, although it does have the same 'belt' that the R-44/46 does, so it could easily be applied.
BTW - Why was red chosen as the color to paint the Redbirds? If logic played a roll, you would think they would have been painted silver or gray to match the rest of the fleet (although some were painted dark green back in the 80s). I think this topic was discussed some time ago, but I would like to refresh my memory.
The green cars on the IRT was a trian of R-33. I don't know all of the numbers, but they wer3e in the low 8800's. They operated on the #4 line and also the #2 line at one point. A photo in Greller's, NYC Subway Cars shows a green R-21 running with the green R-33's. This was the first I had known of any other IRT car classes being painted green.
I think one R-17 was also painted green.
The R-10s before retired sported this same shade of green. 3184, in Coney Island Yard, still has this paint scheme.
--Mark
Funny, when I was young I always thought they were painted black 8-). Even the R16 in the Transit Museum doesn't look very green.
Keep in mind that the green that is being discussed in this thread is the "Rehab" green, NOT the original "kale" or dark pullman green that many IRT R series cars were painted. The mainline R-33's were originally painted in a bright "fox" red with yellow grab iron appliances.
The R-17's originally were painted in a dark maroon. Other R series, including the R16, were painted in the dark pullman green that quickly weathered (a combination of brake shoe dust and grime) to a dark greenish-grayish black which is probably the "black" color that you remember from your youth. The cars that were painted in the "Rehab" green, which was more of a "hunter" or "Weyerhauser" green, never weathered to the black shade. It is interesting to note that during the fifties, sixties and early seventies when the TA did not wash car exteriors, that all subway cars, regardless of original livery, turned the same general shade of "grimy black". This prompted one wag to say that all NYCTA subway cars take on the "protective coloration of all ground burrowing animals".
Now that I'm back from vacation, it's time to jump back in. Car washers did not even begin to appear until the 60s; the first one was installed at 207th St. shops. The R-1/9s were run through them first and, to everyone's surprise, gold "City of New York" lettering which had been applied to their sides reappeared after being covered over for 30-some years. I still remember seeing this lettering on some R-1/9s.
[ Do you think the TA will try this livery again? ]
Don't count on it anytime soon. Stainless steel cars don't have to be painted and painting costs money. It is also more grafitti resistant.
[ BTW - Why was red chosen as the color to paint the Redbirds? ]
I think there was lots of this paint left over from some other project and it was tried out. It ended up looking good, it covered the older paint very well so it was used throughout. This is what I think I remember, anyway.
--Mark
I don't know why red was chosen, but I do remember that it all started with the #7 R-36/33.
Does anyone know why some redbirds have white ceilings and other the same color as the inside wall colors.
I recall that the R33 or R-36 (not the Worlds Fair cars) were delivered new with the red carbody paint.
The R-29s, R-33s, and mainline R-36s were delivered in a bright red livery. Many other cars were repainted red before the silver-and-blue scheme was introduced.
Subway car colors have been a product of the times and the social climate. I guess that the closest we've ever come to a standard colors has been the blue on stainless steel which was the predominant scheme (in one form or another) fron the late 60's until the 80s. The so-called Redbirds were not all manufactured in red. Some were Robins Egg blue (worlds fair scheme) while some were basic black. Some were painted white before red. Ultimately, the red proclaimed victory over graffiti.
Other attempts to restore cars to a 'period' look have met with mixed success. The painting of the R-10s in the forest green before they were retired is one example. The incorporation of the world's fair scheme on other cars is another example. The current, all stainless look is not pleasing to look at but is 'maintenance efficient'. One R-62 train was painted with a red winged bonnet to test the scheme for the R-142s, (it was removed soon after)so there is hope for the future.
My current thought is that standardization is boring. I'd like to see the shops responsible for the maintenance of cars be able to individualize the cars with unique bonnet paint schemes. Metro-North has begun to do this, to some extent. Right now, the only semblance of uniqueness is the red stripe painted on the threshhold plates of the 'D' line R-68s. While it has a functional purpose, it gives the car a somewhat unique look.
Any real smart chemists here (this is way beyond me). Can you create a stainless steel allow body panel in a different color by adding, say, copper? In other words, even if we want to go with a no-rust no-paint exterior, which we probably do, can the color of the metal sheeting be different?
I think the aesthetics of the station and the interior are more important that the exterior of the cars.
Steve, couldn't agree with you more.
On this note, I guess a good approach to individual shop identity would be to borrow what the Bus Division has done with the buses. By the way, is the decal system still used by the Bus Division?
There is a good reason MCI 1861 was not at the Bus Festival: It's out of the country. My source tells me that the bus was put on a flat bed because it can't move on its own & was returned to Canada. You may recall the TA made modifications to the bus' interlock system after MCI told them not to, and it messed up the computer system. The MCI people want the TA to pay for the bus, and as far as MCI is concerned, the rest of the order is canceled. My editorial comment is this: the TA put rear door interlocking modifications on their current buses, but why was it necessary to put a front door interlocking system on a bus which doesn't have a rear door, and a front door the driver can see right next to him/her with his/her own 2 eyes?
What was so special about this bus anyway?
It is a true long distance bus, and has more seats and larger than their regular Express Buses. It would be more pleasant to ride in this rather than a conventional RTS of which the only modification is soft seats.
I also don't understand why NYCT would want a front door interlock. It's too bad if the MCI order doesn't materialize. I'm one of those people who's tired of seeing endless orders of RTS. I know their durable buses, but some diversity please. I was never a big fan of OBI or New Flyer, but I'm so happy that these buses are at KB depot - It means I can avoid RTS most of the time.
Also, I don't know how true it is, but I heard from a NYCT employee once that the NYCT was interested in purchasing MCI Classics, but MCI wasn't interested in dealing with NYCT.
I meant (BIA) Orion, not OBI.
I heard the reason why they didn't purchase Classics was because they did not come with the rear wheelchair lift. MCI and TMC were the same company (Greyhound), and it was all sold to Nova.
I certainly would have liked to have seen Classics, since they were so reminiscent of fishbowls. Now I hear they don't make them anymore.
Eric,
The MCI Classics are alive & well on many of the "private" bus companies in NYC. In the city U can get on a Queens bound bus at Wall Street and 34th. They have coach style seats O/H racks & reading lights, but no Wheel Chair Lift. They also run GM/TMC/etc on some of these routes where they have "regular" customers for the WCL. A "regular" will even call to say he/shes working OT, so the co can run that GM later if he/she provides enough notice.
Bet you didn't know bus people were so friendly ?
P.S. the fare is 3.00 for this coach service, & you can hop onto a subway for a free return trip (if you don't pay with cash).
P.P.S. Anyone want to ride one of the old GM "02s", the first ones in the current style, you know the ones where AC was an after thought, yes they can out of retirement to meet customer demand.
Mr t__:^)
Yeah, but it would have been nice to see them painted in NYCT colors, and running in local service in Brooklyn and Manhattan. The best I can do now is hope to catch the ones with the back door which are run on the Q60 (Green Lines) Jamaica also has a couple like that, but I never ride those lines.
Thurston,
I just wanted to add that a few of the MCI Classics at New York Bus Service and Liberty Lines are equipped with W/C lifts. They're 1700's at NYBS and 3100's at Liberty Lines. The buses I really miss are the GM/Canada fishbowls that the Queens Companies used to operate. In fact the newest of them at Queens Transit and Steinway Transit also had W/C lifts. Of course these all of these buses have thier lifts in the front door - and I can't imagine why any agency would want to have their lift in the rear door, but after all this is the NYCT that were talking about here.
MCI and TMC were woned by the greyhound corp. When they sold the bus company they them changed the company name to the DIAL corp.
When they no longer owned a bus line they questeined why they wer building buses and carved the bus builders off lice a slice of soap.
Nova bought the RTS and classic line and DINA from Mexico bought the MCI intercity product lines.
Classics are being built in Canada and finnished in up state NY
RTS is still in Roswell NM with the aliens
The odd twist comes in when Volvo bought NOVA last month.
Is there any site or information source that details the current renovations at Grand Central Terminal. Richard Blinder is the team architect of this project and a graduate of the University of Cincinnati, where I work. We are planning tours in the Fall. Any ideas anyone?
There have been a lot of articles in the New York Times, particularly in the Sunday real estate section, and particularly in the last few months. Luck,
--mhg
For those who are interested in how the CAB signal system works on the CTA, please refer to the following site:
http://members.aol.com/chictafan/signals.html
It gives the most detailed, yet understandable explaination.
I don't know guys.
From the morning papers I gather that there is a lot more wrong with the "N" in addition to the fact that it does'nt go to LaGuardia.
What have you done to the Sea Beach?
Say, how come we don't refer to it and it's cousin in these postings as the "Never" and the "Rarely"? It may noy be funny, but it's cute.
The Sea Beach is the train most advesely affected by the loss of half the tracks on the rusting Mahattan Bridge. It takes 10 minutes more to get to Midtown than it did 30 years ago. And with the remaining two bridge tracks and the Montigue Tunnel both at capacity at rush hour, there is no way to add service anywhere on the BMT southern division no matter how crowded they get. The advocates who reported that there are fewer trains going into Manhattan than 30 years ago seem not to understand that in places where the trains are crowded, there is no way to add trains. Equipment shortages may also be a problem. You can't hire your way out of this mess, and overtime won't help either.
The advocates and politicians demand lower fares and more service today, but capital investments with benefits far in the future? No interest. Perhaps they all plan to be living in the suburbs in the future. Perhaps they already own condos in Florida. Unfortunately, the future has arrived. Perhaps someone will wake up.
It would be very interesting to see Sea Beach ridership figures from the time when it was an express from 59th Street/Fourth Avenue to 57th
Street/Seventh Avenue (stops: 59, 36, Pacific, Canal, 14, 34, 42, 57, a total of 8 stops) compared with now (stops: 25 of them, except for an occasional skipping of some of the Brooklyn local stops). The fare increase from a nickel to $1.50 has really helped Sea Beach riders to have improved service.
Why can't Sea Beaches again run express 24/7 on Broadway from 57th to Canal at least and also along 4th Avenue from Pacific to 59th? It has always seemed like a terrible waste of money and capacity to use the 4th Avenue express tracks for storage of empty trains when there are people who might just think about riding trains again if they didn't have to suffer through the stop-and-go of current service.
There is room on Broadway/Manhattan for lots of additional service--start locals from City Hall/Canal (or even Whitehall) and run them to 57th Street and have the N and R both operate as express in Manhattan. Don't the signals allow a 1 3/4 or 2 minute headway? And there would be only the one station at Canal where there would be any kind of problem with three routes on one track, but since none has four-minute headways, there really shouldn't be any difficulty. A revival of the old EE service might even be considered so that the Queens Boulevard
people can have their Broadway locals and Southern Division Brooklynites could once again have express trains on Broadway.
Ed Alfonsin/SUNY at Potsdam
The Sea Beach isn't even a molecule of its once former glory. Imagine the express run from Coney Island to 57th St - 7th Ave! I'd bet the 4 track portion of the line in Brooklyn was the inspiration for the long IND express runs between 59th St and 125th St, and the original plan for the 2nd Ave subway to run non-stop between 125th St and 34th St.
[ Why can't Sea Beaches again run express 24/7 on Broadway from 57th to Canal at least and also along 4th Avenue from Pacific to 59th? It has always seemed like a terrible waste of money and capacity to use the 4th Avenue express tracks for storage of empty trains when there are people who might just think about riding trains again if they didn't have to suffer through the stop-and-go of current service. ]
I'll venture to guess that the "savings" in time running express from 57th/7th to Canal St would be offset by the waiting time of N trains merging onto the local tracks to run with the R line via tunnel to/from Brooklyn. A similar delay might be found switching to the 4th Ave express tracks at Pacific St.
--Mark
The real killer is squeezing through Dekalb, Lawernce, Borough Hall, Whitehall, Rector, Cortlandt, and City Hall. With all those stops, switches, merges and curves it takes for ever. Except for the tunnel, the train moves at a crawl. Just think, when the bridge was open you skipped the whole thing -- zoom.
The service started to go downhill when the EE service was discontinued and the N was extended to Continental Avenue.
Then they closed the bridge, and service has all but bottomed out.
Growing up, I lived midway between the F and N on Kings Highway in Brooklyn. If you were going to Downtown Brooklyn or into Midtown Manhattan during non-rush hours, the N was the way to go, baby.
It's a shame.
A very big ditto on that one, Mark
I ride the F train every day and there is one unique station along the line. This station is York Street. As far as anyone knows there are no exits at this station. The Station was designed exclusivly so that passengers, trying to move to the front (or back) of the train, can run to the next car. Why doesn't the TA simply open the doors between cars on the F train (like on the IRT) and eliminate the need for the York Street stop?
Q: Are there any other such stops, exclusivly for passengers trying to move from car to car?
You can exit at York Street, I believe, although no one ever does. Since my train has to stop there on each trip to Manhattan, I was curious as to why it is there, so I got out and looked around one day. I found an old sign that said this way to the Brooklyn Navy Yard. Fifty years ago, tens of thousand of workers probably used the station on the way to work in the year and the surrounding Fulton Ferry factories.
It could happen again. If two entreprenuers can get financing, they plan to build the nation's largest film studio in the Navy Yard. And if such a venture succeeds, related business could also move to the area.
Actually, hundreds and maybe thousands of people still work at the industrial park that now occupies the Navy Yard property. An article in the _Times_ three or four years ago (when the economy was in worse shape) said that the place was at something like 80% or 85% occupancy.
What must have changed is that the workers don't use the subway much anymore. As you noted in a recent posting, the rate of vehicle use for commuter trips in the city is not that far off the (extremely high) national average if Manhattan is disregarded.
According to data we have, about 3,500 people work at the Navy Yard and in adjacent loft buildings, but from what I've heard (and some of you may even remember this) that's a shadow of the past. There's lots of room for more, so I'm very hopeful about this development.
Recall the G loop idea kicked around in prior posts? Ie. hooking the Crosstown onto the F tracks northbound toward Jay St, and into the 53rd St tunnel (when the 63rd St tunnel is built and frees up capacity, then running it in a loop as a crosstown-6th Ave local.
As it happens, the center of NYC's artsy would is Soho/East Village, near the 2nd Ave/Broadway Lafayette stops. Priced out of this areas, many artsy types have moved over to Williamsburg loft buildings, near other G stops. Black artists have clustered around Spike Lee in Fort Green, near the Classon and Washington G stops. Other artsy types have moved into lofts in DUMBO (Down Under the Manahttan Bridge Overpass), near the York St. stop. Put a major film studio (and perhaps related businesses) near the York St. stop in the Navy Yard, and you could have a whole cluster of businesses on one subway line.
D.U.M.B.O is the creation of some smart ass real estate agent. The Neighborhood already has the name Vinegar Hill.
Crosstown-6th Avenue Loop? How is this to be accomplished without backing up the train at Queens Plaza? A southbound "G" train entering Hoyt-Schermerhorn from Fulton St has no choice but to proceed towards Bergen St. There are no switches to the "A"/"C" tracks towards Jay St.
Bob Sklar
Crosstown/6th Ave loop.
Requires construction -- connecting the G to the 53rd St tunnel, and to Jay St. 53rd St could have capacity after 63rd St opens, if 63rd St is used for two services -- a QB local and a QB express.
It may seem foolish to spend money on such connections, given the low ridership of the line, but the line has few riders because it has long headways, and because it requires a change to get to Manhattan. Make the connections, and I would expect far more ridership, with passengers changing from the L and abandoning the J/M/Z if they are going to Midtown.
The line itself is relatively new -- its a shame it isn't better integrated into the system.
Switches could be installed between the G tracks and the A tracks east of Hoyt-Schermerhorn before the G tracks begin their nosedive to duck beneath the Manhattan-bound Fulton St. tracks. You would have to move the scissor switches between the Fulton St. local and express tracks further down the tunnel towards Lafayette Ave, but there should be plenty of room to do so.
The TA keeps the 75 foot R-46 and R-68 end doors locked because they don't align well around curves resulting in a dangerous condition for moving passengers.
Until the area around York St develops more business or a greater need, wouldn't it make sense to make the station part time, like some stations in Chicago?
--Mark
gee the idea of part time stations was and still is kicked around by NYCTA bean counters. However when you mean "part-time station" do you mean available for customer travel without an agent present having to enter and exit through iron maiden turnstiles during off hours. Or do you mean during off hours say 1am to 5am the station is closed all together no trains stopping?.
I mean that the station is closed and trains do not stop.
--Mark
Does anyone know what are the 10 least used stations in the system.
east 143 street on the #6 line.both sides.uptown side does less than 200 fares in 24 hours.when I was nite extra,I wouldn't make a sell all tour.both sides are restricted duty booths at nite
Here's a question for ya:
I'd like to drive my car down to the city and then use the subway to get around manhattan; problem is, I don't know where to park. I've heard there are commuter parking lots on the outskirts of the city for this express purpose. Since I don't want to drive in town, i'd like to leave my car as far away as possible and still be able to catch the subway there. I'm coming from the north (poughkeepsie NY) and I'm not that familliar with nyc driving. Thanks!
-T
Todd. When I go into the city I find that driving to Poughkeepsie and taking Metro North in is my best bet. Of course this is really limited to holidays and weekdays due to parking at MN stations
From one Todd to another...
This may not be the most convenient coming from the north, but it's in the city, open 24 hours/day, and charges $8.75/24 hours (compared to up to $36 for some Manhattan lots!):
There is a large garage at Queensboro plaza, just east of the 59th Street Bridge. It is very convenient to many subway lines (#7, Echo, Foxtrox, Golf, Never & Rarely!). From the north, take the FDR Drive southbound to the 59th Street Bridge (use the lower level); it's on your right just after you enter Queens.
And if you talk to Mark he'll tell you about the ability to grab some great video action.
Ha! You beat me to it! Yes, I'm familiar with that garage. The upper deck provides some GREAT shots of the 7 and the Never/Rarely going in and out of Queensboro Plaza, the LIRR and Amtrak in the distance, and on the east side of the deck, another glimpse of the 7 with the Manhattan skyline as a background.
HIGHLY recommended photo/video stop!
--Mark
Is Todd's price quote current. I never think of it. I guess with Added thruway and bridge tolls it would be close to the 19$ rtrip from Poughkeepsie
I dunno about the $36 charge for parking in NYC; I suppose it's possible. I've never paid that much. When I drive into NYC, I usually park on 48th between Broadway & 6th (Sun Garage) - usually costs me $21.00. It's right next to the Cort theatre. If the H Hudson Pkwy is too slow, Riverside Drive usually makes a good alternate. (I have severe traffic allergies :)
To drive into Manhattan from Poughkeepsie, the cheapest way would be to take the Taconic South into the Sprain Brook Pkwy South to the Cross County Pkwy West to the Saw Mill Pkwy / H Hudson Pkwy south, pay the toll at the H Hudson Bridge ($1.75? $2? W/ EzPass I never pay attention anymore), then use the H Hudson Pkwy into mid-Manhattan. W/O traffic, it takes me about 1 hr 45 mins. I pick up the Saw Mill closer to Yonkers (you can get it further north at Hawthorne) but this way is less wear and tear, and you avoid some traffic lights in Yonkers on the Saw Mill. So the total cost would be the toll ($2) + parking (21) + gas.
When I go on my field trips, I usually drive to my folk's house in Brooklyn and leave the car there (weekends), or I drive to Ridgewood, NJ and take the ShortLine bus to the PA bus terminal (weekdays). Much more direct for me than NJT to Hoboken, PATH to NYC, then making my subway connections. (I live on the opposite side of the Hudson in Rockland County). I could drive across the Tappan Zee and park in Tarrytown and take Metro North, but there's never enough non-permit non-resident parking available there.
--Mark
Mark-
Which would be the best Park'n Ride option, coming from the south on I95 (NJ Turnpike)? I want to park safe and reasonable for 2-3 days, use transit while in NYC, and then drive back south:
>>
...(A) Ridgewood, NJ and take the ShortLine bus to the PA bus terminal (weekdays)
OR
...(B) drive to Hoboken, and PATH to NYC<<
I'm familiar with PABT and PATH 33d st. station. But I would need directions for the NJ side of the trip, both for Ridgewood and/or Hoboken.
Thanks!
WBS
Three more places in NJ are:
Metropark at Exit 131A on the Garden State Parkway, just two miles north of Exit 11 of the NJ Turnpike. There is monitored long-term parking and the commuter train to Penn Station runs every 20-30 minutes weekdays and (also) late afternoon/early evening on Sunday ($9 Round trip if you arrive in NYC after 9:30 AM M-F and all day Sa-Su.)
Also there is a long-term parking garage next to Newark's Penn Station. Then you can take the PATH train in for $1 each way.
Finally, right before the Holland tunnel goes into Manhattan, you can exit at the last NJ exit and get to the Pavonia Avenue station by parking at Newport Mall ($9 per day I think) or at the garage across the street from the mall.
Also, my brother in Albany takes the train in from Poughkeepsie, or maybe it's one closer in like Beacon. You also could park in White Plains and get a fast train in.
How about a residential neighborhood in the northern Bronx, as in Dyre Avenue, or 242 St-Broadway, or Mosholu Parkway and the Concourse?
[ Metropark at Exit 131A on the Garden State Parkway, just two miles north of Exit 11 of the NJ Turnpike. There is monitored long-term parking and the commuter train to Penn Station runs every 20-30 minutes weekdays and (also) late afternoon/early evening on Sunday ($9 Round trip if you arrive in NYC after 9:30 AM M-F and all day Sa-Su.)]
Carl's suggestion about MetroPark is a good one. The ShortLine lot, while in a good neighborhood, isn't monitored by cameras as is MetroPark and it doesn't support overnight parking. (You can only buy a daily parking permit and can only feed the meeters 12 hours worth of coins). I've used the MetroPark lot for ERA trips myself. You shouldn't have a problem there.
--Mark
Thanks for your advice!
Todd -- I thought the E & F were dubbed the "Eternal" and the "Forever!" I haven't yet heard a jovial nickname for the G.
Gruesome?
--Mark
On the east side of Broadway in Kingsbridge the Bronx, behind a row of stores between W. 230th St and W. 231st Street, there is a municipal parking lot which backs up onto the old Putnam Division. It is poorly signed, difficult to see, and not many people know its there. When I surveyed the area some time ago, it was manned but half empty.
Take the NYS Thruway/Major Deegan and exit at 230th St, make a right onto 230th, a right onto Broadway, and a right into either Kimberly or Vervelen Place (one is in, one is out, forget which). Of take the Taconic/Saw Mill/Henry Hudson to exist at Broadway (254th St) and go south. Board the #1 Broadway local at 231st Street.
I am sure this subject is well covered at this sight, but what is the city's official position on the 2nd Avenue Line?
Do they have a real plan?
A timetable?
A Budget Plan?
If not, why does this keep cropping up as a topic as though its going to happen? Enough with the fable already. Why arn't we discussing the 10th avenue line which isn't going to happen either?
I agree with chris, ever since this plan was first concieved in 1972,there has been snags since then.I Thought the city was well under way in getting it started until the financial crisis of 1975.From that point on,it seemed the plan was dead in the water.I'm curious also to see if there are plans to see this project through.
The second av. line was proposed in 1923, not 1972. There have been recent news reports about it and it is still considered an active project to be completed. If and when...? Well no one knows...
David
I've given up on the 1923 date. I tired of being told I'm crazy.
75 years in the making.
I propose that we all stop talking about the 2nd Avenue Line and instead talk about the "Soon to Happen" 10th Avenue and 5th Avenue Lines.
I'd like to think that after 40 years of inner city decline and ridership decline, something has changed, at least in NYC. Did you ever think you would see NYC crime fall below the national average, of subway and bus ridership rise the way it has? We have employment data for the city going back to 1950, and it looks like this year could be the biggest year to year gain in history. And the NIMBY activists are so discredited at this point that even the Times deigns to criticize them. Something has changed. Maybe things will become possible in the next decade that wasn't possible before.
I was curious to know if the 2nd Ave Tunnel is still being maintained in some sort of way and how many segments were built and where.
There were three segments of the Second Avenue subway actually built. Two are in East Harlem, totalling around a half-mile, and a third segment of about 800 feet is located near the Manhattan Bridge. There originally had been a fourth segment, from Second to Ninth Streets, but it's been filled in. The remaining three segments are just tunnels and trackways, there are no stations and no tracks were installed. They are maintained to some extent, primarily so the sections of Second Avenue located above them won't cave in.
Were the existing 2nd Ave tunnels cut and cover or deep bore? How deep below 2nd Avenue are they. If they are through solid rock, why do they have to be maintained to keep 2nd Ave from falling in?
Cut and cover. The Chinatown section was built when the Confucious apartment houses were built as part of an agreement with the contractor of the apartment construction. The TA built the tunnels and didn't have to dig the trench downwards because of the digging the contractor did for the foundations of the apartments - a real money saver.
There also used to be many a car commercial in the 1970s saying how well cars' suspensions could handle "the second avenue washboard".
The tunnel sections are inspected every 2 weeks and the pumps that keep the tunnels dry are checked and maintained.
In the section under Chinatown:
- fan rooms were built for ventilation but no fans were ever put in.
- tunnel is standard 2 track cut and cover
- northern side splits as the next stop was supposedly Grand St and the tunnels split to align with the outside platforms at Grand St.
- the tunnels have gentle downward slopes and the completed section resembles a stretched out 's' curve.
I never saw the uptown sections.
--Mark
--Mark
Mark mentions a two-track cut & cover section for the tunnel he saw in Chinatown. Is it supposed to be only two tracks the entire length or is that just Chinatown? Did two tracks split off to follow the F train to Brooklyn in SoHo?
Every other north-south subway line in Manhattan has express and local tracks, even the Nassau St. line. I hope they didn't skimp on this important fact on the Second Av. Subway (although not building it for decades is certainly skimping).
Because of cost the 2nd Ave subway, had it been built, would have been only 2 tracks. To speed service and further reduce costs, the number of stations was reduced. Because you can never please everyone, especially in New York, The neighborhoods that got one of these widely spaced, for NYC, stations complained because they didn't want one and the ones that didn't get a station complained because service was not provided to their neighborhood.
In addition, the 2nd Ave. line was supposed to be built to allow speeds of up to 70 mph.
70 miles per hour?
So the Second Av. line was supposed to be only two tracks but the stations are spread further apart.
That doesn't make much sense. The whole idea of a second subway line on the East Side is to give folks who live close to the East River easy access to the subways. But what's the use if the stations are 10-12 blocks away from each other? It might turn out that you could live between First & York Avs. and still find a Lexington Av. Station may be as close to your home as the widely spaced stations on the 2nd Av. line.
Every north-south subway line in Manhattan as I said before is an express. More than half the lines in Brookyn have some provision for express service, even if the modern routes don't reflect that.
So in our modern era, with improvements in speedy construction, plannning, computers, etc., we can't build a four track express/local line to serve the East Side? The answer is two tracks, with all trains stopping at all stations but space those stations further apart? Brilliant.
How about just a light rail going under 2nd Av. in the businesses sections and on the surface elsewhere? Then we could be Sacramento or Buffalo.
Reggie
Very good idea Reggie! I'm not only proposing a 4 track service from 125th Street to Whitehall Street(similar to 4, 5, & 6 lines), but several networking routes (similar to 4, 5, & 6 in the Bronx, but not as complicated). One vering off 14th Street towards the Lower Eastside (via Avenue C). It will reconnect at East Bwy and Water Street.
Rebuilding of the old Third Avenue Line terminating at Grand Concourse, coppling with the C & D. A southern Bronx division operating along the 6 route (Brook and Hunts Point Avs). Then, vering off into Lafayette Avenue terminating at E. Termont Avenue.
I know my proposals are very expensive, however, passengers would benefit.
"How about light rail going under 2nd ave. in the business sections and on the surface elsewhere".
Second Avenue in Manhattan is a congested truck route for the East Side. Any attempt at street running in Manhattan, or anywhere else for that matter, would result in very poor time keeping due to auto traffic interference. A reserved median for the streetcars would be required. I don't think there is enough room on 2nd Ave.
This is a first. You're being optimistic about a major capital transit project actually happening? Hell is starting to feel a little chilly 8-).
Seriously, IMO unless gas skyrockets to $10/gallon, I do not believe we will see the 2nd Ave. subway in our lifetimes.
It's not going happen under this mayor.
Not when we keep churning out politicians who couldn't care one whit about transit because they've been driving since Lord knows when. When was the last time Pataki or Giuliani commuted by mass transit? When the A/B Standards were running?
I believe the transit vs. road conflict is false. Prior to 1970, we expanded both. After 1970, we have done little to improve either.
What is real? Spending on transportation, by local government, in dollars, for every $1,000 earned by residents of .
Year NYC U.S. Average
1983 $11.12 $11.92
1984 $9.09 $11.92
1985 $8.29 $10.80
1986 $7.35 $11.03
1987 $8.30 $11.29
1988 $9.46 $11.22
1989 $12.03! $10.92
1990 $9.66 $10.98
1991 $9.86 $10.93
1992 $9.73 $11.21
1993 $8.17 $10.29
1994 $8.00 $10.83
1995 $7.33 $10.64
1996 $6.77 N.A.
1997 $5.72 N.A.
Note that as income has risen in the expansion, transportation spending has not kept up, and thus has fallen further behind as a share of income.
The relative spending on education and parks is just as bad, and taxes are still nearly double the national average, but the hospitals and non-profits sure do well in NYC. Needless to say, the rest of the state spends a ton on everything relative to the income of their residents, thanks to state taxes raised in NYC and spent elsewhere. The average local government spends about $48 per $1,000 of its residents' income on education. New Jersey averages about $50. New York City is about $40. But the rest of the state is up at $64.
NYC's representatives can only about "their" health and social service organizations. The rest of the state gets featherbedded road crews and luxo-schools. In exchange, everyone pays higher taxes, and NYC gets inferior services. Thats the deal. The Vampire State.
Some day I'm going to get really mad, write this all in a report, and send it to everyone in sight. In the meantime, when the Governor, State Senators, and Assemblymembers come up for election this year, I recommend demanding a write-in ballot and writing in Daffy Duck three times.
[NYC's representatives [care] only about "their" health and social service organizations. The rest of the state gets featherbedded
road crews and luxo-schools. In exchange, everyone pays higher taxes, and NYC gets inferior services. Thats the deal. The Vampire State.]
And the sad thing is that this misguided spending has produced very few benefits. NYC spends huge amounts on health care and social services. The rest of the state spends huge amounts on education. Do city residents have extra-long life expectancies and few social pathologies? Are children elsewhere in the state among the smartest in the country? The answers are obvious.
<Why not today?
How about Yosemite Sam?
Whoa! 10th Av and 5th Av lines? I haven't yet heard about these! What are the details?
Bob Sklar
The Details are thus:
The 10th Avenue will have two lines, one will run from Staten Island to Battery Park City and up 10th Ave to 59th Street where it will go Express to 110th, and turn right to connect with the 8th Avenue Line at CPW and 110th. From there it will make an east side connection with the Lexington line before continuing on to La Guardia.
The Local Line will run from Brooklyn, across Canal Street and up 10th Ave, to 72nd street where it will connect with the 1,2,3, and then run express from 72nd to 125th and on to Riverdale.
The 5th Avenue Line will run from 145th and Lenox, along the FDR and down 5th Avenue. Stops at 125th, 110th, 96th, 86th, 79th, 72nd, 66th,
59th, 50th, NYPL, 34th, 23rd, 14th, Washington Square, Houston, and West on Houston to connect with the 10th Avenue line. The Midtown stops don't correspond exactly with existing 5th Avenue stops in order to allow room for the giant Escalators needed to move people from the necessary depth of the midtown portion of this line. Midtown stations will connect however via tunnels. 53rd Street on the E/F and 42nd Street on the #7.
The 10th Avenue line will connect in midtown with the #7 extention which will continue on under the Lincoln Tunnel Roadways to the Javits center and then on down 11th Ave to Battery Park City.
The L train will also be extended West to connect with the 10th Ave, and then run parallel with the #7 downtown on 11th Ave.
Also, the lower level of the 8th Avenue line will be reopened and run from 125th Street Express to 59th and down to 14th where it will be extended down Houston to World Trade and on to Staten Island via the same tunnel as the 10th Avenue Line.
In addition to connecting with the SIRR one of the lines will run on new tracks which will service the West Side of the Island.
I forgot to mention that the 10th Avenue tunnel across 110th Street will be cut extra deep to allow for the new PATH extension which will connect Newark Airport, Downtown Newark, Giant's Stadium, Manhattan, and La Guardia Airport. There will be an extra charge for this PATH SPECIAL $4.50 I think.
All of the above will be paid for by raising the NYC parking tax from 18.25% to 19%, raising tolls $1.00 per axel during RUSH Hours, increasing the price of the Staten Island Ferry, and increased Tax revenue from rising property values along the new lines. The TA also plans to save money by fasing out tokens, introducing more automation to metrocard sales, and eliminating door operators on most transit lines. The State and the Fed will also kick in some.
After you've digested this, there is a lot more to come!!!!!
Chris,
More to come??? No kidding, that is a lot to digest! I found myself thinking "It's too late for April fool". Where did you get this info? Are there any maps available?
Does this have anything to do with what appears to be an entrance to a subway station on 11th Av at 35th St (opposite Javitz Center)? I've been told that it may have been meant for the Amtrak line running there.
Also, what was that about the lower level of the 8th Av. line being reopened and running express from 125th St downtown? The only lower level I know of is at 42nd St.
Bob Sklar
The lower level at 42nd Street and 8th connects with the unused middle tracks at 59th Street. I don't know the extent of this line but it will be incorperated into the new layout.
I don't know anything about any station opposite the Javits Center at the moment. But that's roughly where the #7 extension will stop on it's way down to BPC. The new #7 stops will be:
10th Ave.(Conecting with the 10th Ave. line)
Javits Center (at 38th & 11th)
23rd (and 11th Ave.)
14th (connecting with the L extension)
The #7 will then go express to New Albany Street in BPC while the
L train extension will run local along the same line, stopping at
Christopher
Canal
and Chambers Before New Albany Where a tunnel under the West Side Highway will connect The station to the #1, N,R,and E trains at World Trade. As well as the #2,#3 at Park Place and the 8th Avenue extension which will stop along Greenwich street at World Trade before continuing on to Staten Island.
The 5th Avenue line, crossing Houston street will intercept the 11th Avenue trains but will not stop until New Albany.
Included in the more:
Tokyo Style High Speed trains to Long Island.
Reopening of the 34th Street pedestrian passage with moving sidewalks.
And a trolly style people mover running a circut around midtown
3rd Ave, 57th St., 9th Ave, and 23rd Street.
The ultimate goal is to ban all traffic from the above mentioned box during regular weekday hours.
Au contraire: the lower level at 42nd St. consists of one track and one platform, southbound only. It is accessible only by E trains from Queens, and that single track merges with the 8th Ave. mainline just before 34th St. There is an unused center PLATFORM at 59th St; the express tracks are most definitely used by A and D trains.
IMHO, the old saying applies here: if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.
Interesting ideas, new lines on 10th and 5th Avenues, extensions of existing lines, connections to Staten Island, etc. etc.
But let's think of an island.
Specifically, think of an island in the middle of the ocean that's one huge, extremely hard piece of granite. This island is ten miles long, ten miles wide, and one mile high - and don't forget, it's all a single rock.
Once a year a tiny sparrow flies out to the island and sharpens its beak on it. When the sparrows have completely ground away the island from sharpening their beaks, the abovementioned expansions to the subway system *might* be ready to begin construction.
The impression I got from earlier posts was that this was all sarcasm-- in other words, the 2nd Av line is just as far off and fanciful as these other "imaginary" lines. I get the point: it seems that way doesn't it, with the utter inability to ever get the project off the ground.
Thanks for saying what most of us are thinking. I've been involved in NYC transportation and planning issues for nearly 25 years, and this stuff was never mentioned previously. The proposals are obviously a facetious reaction to the inability to ever build a 2nd Avenue subway.
A 1951 bond issue to finance this line was approved, only to see the money used for improvements to the existing subway system. Nearly 50 years later, there is still no 2nd Ave. subway. The writer's frustrations are obvious. I'd love to see the 2nd Ave. subway built in my lifetime - and I was a very young child in 1951 when that bond issue passed.
Here's some data which may interest transit advocates. In fiscal 1997, NYC spent $5.72 on transportation for every $1000 in its residents' income. The U.S. average for local government in Fy 94, the latest published, was $10.64. In fact the U.S. average is always between $10.00 and $12.00, as far back as 1983, the earliest I have. NYC is almost always below $10.00, except for one good election year under St. Ed Koch. I once calculated that over a ten years span the difference between spending at the national average each year and the city's actual spending, as a share of its residents' personal income, was $7 billion. (How little infrastructure we get per billion dollars is a second problem, along with how few billions we spend).
On the other hand, NYC local taxes, as a share of its residents' income, have fallen from $95 to $82 in the last few years, but the national average is about $45. NYC spends less on education and parks as well, year after year. And within transportation, education and parks spending, does anyone doubt that capital spending and maintenance has taken a back seat to operating expenditures, with their organized, voting union constituencies? Oh for the good old days (but with a transit emphasis), when Robert Moses had the construction unions voting in a block behind him.
Where does the money go? Upstate NY, and the health and social services industries, and elsewhere in the country. See those shiny new hospitals? See those run down schools and bridges? The "non-profit" health and social services industries in NYC have expanded from 300,000 employees in 1983 to about 470,000 today, and it is still going up. Local government earnings were 12 percent of all earnings upstate in 1980, compared with 16 percent in 1996. The comparable figure for NYC is 9.7 percent -- including the transit authority, CUNY, etc. The comparable figures for Long Island and the northern suburbs is about 14 percent. Class sizes sure are small, and cops well paid, elsewhere in the state. And the road crew is the best job a boy can have -- opps that's state spending, over and above all that local spending.
Meanwhile, at the federal level, New York State pays over 8 percent of the taxes and has nearly 7 percent of the people, but will get just over 5 percent of federal transportation spending under the new multi-year deal. But it gets lots of federal Medicaid money, since we spend so much more than everyone else.
Pehaps you wonder why my posts are so cranky? After a decade of looking at numbers like these, I'm very cranky.
Thanks for saying what most of us are thinking. I've been involved in NYC transportation and planning issues for nearly 25 years, and this stuff was never mentioned previously. The proposals are obviously a facetious reaction to the inability to ever build a 2nd Avenue subway.
A 1951 bond issue to finance this line was approved, only to see the money used for improvements to the existing subway system. Nearly 50 years later, there is still no 2nd Ave. subway. The writer's frustrations are obvious. I'd love to see the 2nd Ave. subway built in my lifetime - and I was a very young child in 1951 when that bond issue passed.
Here's some data which may interest transit advocates. In fiscal 1997, NYC spent $5.72 on transportation for every $1000 in its residents' income. The U.S. average for local government in Fy 94, the latest published, was $10.64. In fact the U.S. average is always between $10.00 and $12.00, as far back as 1983, the earliest I have. NYC is almost always below $10.00, except for one good election year under St. Ed Koch. I once calculated that over a ten years span the difference between spending at the national average each year and the city's actual spending, as a share of its residents' personal income, was $7 billion. (How little infrastructure we get per billion dollars is a second problem, along with how few billions we spend).
On the other hand, NYC local taxes, as a share of its residents' income, have fallen from $95 to $82 in the last few years, but the national average is about $45. NYC spends less on education and parks as well, year after year. And within transportation, education and parks spending, does anyone doubt that capital spending and maintenance has taken a back seat to operating expenditures, with their organized, voting union constituencies? Oh for the good old days (but with a transit emphasis), when Robert Moses had the construction unions voting in a block behind him.
Where does the money go? Upstate NY, and the health and social services industries, and elsewhere in the country. See those shiny new hospitals? See those run down schools and bridges? The "non-profit" health and social services industries in NYC have expanded from 300,000 employees in 1983 to about 470,000 today, and it is still going up. Local government earnings were 12 percent of all earnings upstate in 1980, compared with 16 percent in 1996. The comparable figure for NYC is 9.7 percent -- including the transit authority, CUNY, etc. The comparable figures for Long Island and the northern suburbs is about 14 percent. Class sizes sure are small, and cops well paid, elsewhere in the state. And the road crew is the best job a boy can have -- opps that's state spending, over and above all that local spending.
Meanwhile, at the federal level, New York State pays over 8 percent of the taxes and has nearly 7 percent of the people, but will get just over 5 percent of federal transportation spending under the new multi-year deal. But it gets lots of federal Medicaid money, since we spend so much more than everyone else.
Pehaps you wonder why my posts are so cranky? After a decade of looking at numbers like these, I'm very cranky.
I wish to comment on 59th ST IND. There are only four tracks. the station does have an extra middle *platform*
Next- Lower 42nd St on the 8th Ave--The lower level stairs have been removed. The only remaining access is via emergency doors in the face of the platform-the doors are flush with the concrete and look like typical cellar doors.
All will be replaced in time for the opening of the line.
Maybe we should keep it simple - extend the "L" line west, run it up 10th Avenue with a few stations along the way (one at Javits Center)
then loop it back east to terminate near Times Square. Also - whatever happened to the Lower East Side loop that was planned way back when (running from 2nd Avenue east, then up Avenue B or C, connecting with the "L" line).
And to all the folks responding to questions re:York Street.
a) Keep the station open (it has unique architecture) - that area
seems to be up-and-coming within the next ten years or so...
b) Build switches east of Hoyt-Schermerhorn that will connect the
"A" tracks with the "G" tracks. Is that so tough to do? (oops-
can of worms???)
The CTA, cooperating with twelve Chicago-area universities, is planning to come out with the U-Pass, which will provide **unlimited** rides to students from those universities. Their student ID, which at most of the schools can already be used as a debit card, will serve as the transit pass. Some students are thus angered that they will have to pay the CTA (through the university ID fee) for a pass even if they don't want one. An article on the U-Pass from the student newspaper of one of the participating schools is at:
http://www.depaul.edu/~depaulia/back/9798/2-13/news2.html
So, what do you all think of this? I wish they had this when I was riding two trains each way every day to Loyola!
Regarding the "unlimited" student pass - This morning I read in the Chicago Tribune that ALL students attending the twelve participating institutions will have to pay $60 per semester for the privilege of riding the CTA.
Two points -
The old adage applies here, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink".
While the approach is that if young people are exposed to public transportation they will be more likely to use it in the future. The only way CTA can attract new "customers" and keep them is to provide clean, safe, convenient and consistent service. At this they are currently C- at best.
Secondly, who is subsiding these student riders?
The ONLY way for CTA to be successful in the future is to provide the best possible service where and when it is needed. "Customers" who have repeated good experiences will come back and ALSO tell they peer’s about the good bargain CTA has to offer. I do believe the $1.50 a trip is a terrific bargain.
The U-Pass was poineered in Champaign-Urbana and has been adapted with great success by UW-Madison UW-Milwaukee and Marquette university.
It is a great way to get to campus and good usage for the transit system. When I ride in Maidson in April the bus had a seated lad a t mid day. College campuses begin later than AM peak for the most part and students trickle out throughout the day. For urban schools it is a great win win situation. The students get good transportation and the system get a steady revenue stream without adding new service.
Commuters can get to school, and those living on campus gain unlimited access to the city.
I believe this week in Colorado Springs there is a conference about univerity transportation.
The cover story for Time Out NY magazine is billed as "Subway
Special". It's a great article detailing each line, their
history, some fun facts, and other miscellany. It even has some
interesting sidebars about the 3rd rail, rats (as sucked up by
the cleaning car), and a quickie interview with an S train
"operator" (they don't say motorman or conductor). Either way,
it's a pretty spiffy read!
For the record, the magazine article states that the Bowery stop
is the least used in Manhattan.
Is there a URL for the magazine?
--Mark
[Is there a URL for the magazine?]
www.timeoutny.com
http://citysearch-nyc.iconnet.net/timeoutny2/ is where
www.timeoutny.com goes. Funny, though, there's graphics related to
the article on the side of the page, but the article itself can't
be found. :)
I CAN REMEMBER THE GREAT AIR CONDITIONING IN THE R42 CARS I GREW UP USING THE WEST END B LINE AT 9AVE STA.IN BKLYN AND GETTING ON THE B LINE THERE AS AKID ON A HOT JULY DAY IT WAS A GREAT RELIEF BUT I HATED USING THE THEN CRUMBLING CULVER SHUTTLE AT 9AVE THAT LINE NEVER USED NEWER CARS BUT TRANSFERRING AT DIMAS AVE YOU COULD USUALLY HAVE A COOL CAR ON THE F LINE JUST A LITTLE MEMORY ON THIS HOT HUMID DAY IN NYC
I agree. I grew up riding the R-42 & R-40M's on the D line and their A/C was the best that I'd ever experienced. I thought the R-46's had good A/C also.
First time I ever got an R42 with A/C was on 20 July 1969 - Bat Day at Yankee Stadium, and the day the men landed on the Moon! We took the "D" train home. I'd ridden in the R40M's prior to then, but this was the first time in an R42. (Let me go get my old notebook and dig out the unit number...) 4656! (prior to its transferring to the "B" line)
Big orange sign with a white "D", you remember. And man, was it COLD. Ice cold! So cold the windows were fogged up.
Ah yes, I remember it well...
The A/C on the R-42's were the best. I remember riding the R-42's on the D at Brighton Beach after a long hot day at the beach. They were the best.
I guess I was operating in 1982 thru 1985 different R42's on the D than some of you were riding! I would prepare a train and find maybe 4 real good cars on a hot day. And dark cars? Don't you remember them?
You are right. In the '80's, the quality of AC on the R-42's went down considerably. You were lucky if you found one that worked.
The time period I was talking about was the mid to late '70's. During that time, the R-42 cars were very cold. Apologize for not clarifying that in the previous posting.
"Do you remember the Dark Cars", i.e. no lights. My friends and I used to call them Pullmans or sleeping cars because they were not illuminated.
I remember riding in a dark car once, on July 1, 1968, on an E train of R-1/9s. I'm not sure if the first car had headlights, though, even though that dark car was the first car in that train.
Today I rode extensively on the "J" and "L" lines, home of the R42 (and the R40 and R40M) - only #4810-4811 on the "J" and #4412-4413 on the "L" had A/C that had any real kick to it. (Note: "J" #4692-4693 were busy blowing hot air - no A/C at all!) I wonder if they're
using the new R134 refrigerant in the subway cars now, as opposed to the old R10 that the EPA is supposed to be restricting the use of.
My mechanic has told me that the R134 refrigerant does not do as good a job of cooling as the R10. Or maybe the A/C units just need a good charge now and again.
Home on the "L" train
Wayne
The TA does not yet use R-134 on trains. That may change with the R-142/143s. I don't think you mean to compare it to R-10 which, to my knowledge, is not a refrigerant. What you are likely referring to is R-12 which was used in auto air conditioning. All NYCT subway equipment uses R-22, which while restricted by the EPA, is far more accessible than R-12 is.
All cars should have adequate HVAC. I have passed your observations on to the Superintendent of East New York Shop.
Sorry Steve!
I must have had a "A" train on my mind...
I stand correct'd.
Wayne
Here's something you may want to pass along to the Superintendent at ENY also: something I've mentioned, you said it wasn't allowed but it's done anyway: the practice of RTO mixing R40 (Modifieds) Sumitomo, Wabco Brakes, GE electrical equipment with R42 M/K Wabco Brakes, GE electrical equipment with R42 Coney Island rebuilds NY AirBrake Westinghouse electrical equipment. It is rare to see one type of rebuilds on the same train in "The East" unless it's a slant R40 on the L.
While Car Equipment Engineering officially opposes the practice of mixing NYAB and WABCO equiped cars, the operating management of the Division of Car Equipment do not. This is why R-68s and R-68As are not yet run in mixed consists, in service. In fact while Pitkin Shop has only Phase I R-32s (Wabco) and Coney Island Shop has only Phase II R-32s (NYAB), Jamaica has 300 R-32s of both types (186/114). They are routinely mixed together and run exceptionally well together. In fact, the Jamaica (mixed)R-32s usualy out-perform both the Pitkin and Coney Island R-32s.
It's probably sheer coincidence, but did any of you ever notice that most of those chlorofluorocarbon refrigerants had numbers which are identical to New York subway car contract numbers? R-12 and R-22, especially? Of course, there will be no R-134 cars.
BTW, I also remember the Apollo 11 moon landing. We watched it in Putnam, CT while visiting my sister at the girls' camp she was attending. And, let's not forget who won the World Series on October 16 of that year. Why, the Miracle Mets, of course.
Actually, there IS a model R-134. The cars are pilot motors for refuse collection trains. They look like R-62s from the outside, except with fewer doors and windows; inside, they have only a few seats and tables, and they have fans instead of air-conditioning.
David
Gosh, you would think that they would give those poor guys who run the garbage train AC. Imagine being in those cars when the trash cars are full in the middle of summer. Not only would it be hot, but the fans would be pulling in all the odors of the trash. No wonder there are some disgruntled NYCTA workers?!?!
Question: do these pilot cars have stonger, perhaps differently geared traction motors to account for the fact that they pull unpowered cars?
When purchased new, the R-42s were delivered with two 10-ton Vapor AC units. However, when they were overhauled, they were reduced to 9-ton Thermo-king units. By contrast, the R-46, which is 25% larger than the R-42 was delivered with 18 Tons (2 9-ton units) of AC per car. For the record, R-62s & R-62As are equiped with one 12-ton Stone Safety AC unit per car...
The station below are for the second avenue line. The lexinton Avenue line is in bad shape and this line is in and station will ease the congestion and lower the population keep the the trains clean. Tell me what you think and I hope that you like it. The cars the will run on the line are the R-62,R-151,R-142.
2nd Avenue Local/ 8 Train 2nd Avenue Express/ 10 Train
Gun Hill Road River Park Towers
210 Street Jerome Avenue
204 Street Webster Avenue
200 Street Third Avenue Fordham Road Crotona Avenue
180 Street Southern Blvd Claremont Parkway Boston Road
168 Street White Plains Road
156 Street Westchester Avenue
149 Street Brunckner Blvd
138 Street Lafayette Avenue
133 Street/ Bruckner Blvd Rosedale Avenue
125 Street/ Manhattan Hunts Point Avenue
116 Street Longwood Avenue
110 Street 149 Street
103 Street St. Ann's Avenue
96 Street 138 Street
86 Street 133 Street
77 Street 125 Street/ Manhattan
68-67 Streets 86 Street
59 Street 68-67 Streets
42-44 Streets/ United Nations 42-44 Streets/ United Nations 33 Street 14 Street
28 Street Houston Street
23 Street Canal Street
14 Street Vessy Street
East 8th Street Court Street/ Brooklyn Houston Street Bergan Street
Grand Street Utica Avenue
Canal Street Eastern Parkway
Bowery Street Empire Blvd Chambers Street Winthrop Street
Vessy Street Church Avenue
South Street Beverly Avenue
Court Street/ Brooklyn Avenue D
Jay Street Farragut Avenue
Bergen Street Avenue H
4th Avenue Flatland Avenue Prospect Park West Avenue N Franklin Avenue Flatbush Avenue Brooklyn Avenue Floyd Bennet Field
Utica Avenue Beach Channel Drive
Will this work?
I think you're right on the money except I might send the #10 West across Canal Street to Battery Park City and have the #8 run with fewer stops in Brooklyn.
But I thought we all decided not to talk about the 2nd Avenue line until it was officially being built. We need equal time for the 5th, 10th, and 11th Avenue lines which are also Mythological! Not to mention the #7 extension to the Javits Center, the L extension to Battery Park City and the extension of the lower level of the 8th Avenue line down Houston to World Trade and on to Staten Island.
This sight has quite a lot of posting to do to make up for all the talk about 2nd Avenue!
I find it quite interesting that the New York Times has a hyper-link to the MTA Web Site at the conclusion of this mornings NYTimes Web Site article on Ratings and Unlimited Fare.
Don't bother to check, there still is no mention on the MTA web site. Todd Glickman reports seeing the pamphlets at token booths this past week-end. So I guess you current natives are beginning to get the offical low down.
I look around the MTA website every now and then. They have a help wanted section, and Webmaster is always on the list. It's a hot industry right now, and government agencies can't compete on pay. Maybe the MTA doesn't have the staff to keep the Website up to date.
[They have a help wanted section, and Webmaster is always on the list.
It's a hot industry right now, and government agencies can't compete on pay. Maybe the MTA doesn't have the staff to keep the Website up to date.]
There's surely no shortage of outside vendors who could maintain the site. Considering (as noted recently) that the MTA's site lacks something as basic as a mailto link, I'd say that management doesn't particularly care about the site - and Heavens forbid if people could use the site to send e-mail!
The LIRR has four river tunnels into Penn Station, called Lines 1 through 4. When my train leaves Penn Station, we use the river tunnel on the extreme right side of the station (Line 4 I think). 2 Minutes before we leave, the Bi-Levels leave from track 19 and use either the extreme left hand tube or the one next to it. When we get to Queens, the Bi-Levels are sometimes emerging from the tube next to the one we come out of. Common sense would lead me to believe that the tunnels cross somewhere under the river or Manhattan. Is this actually the case?
The tunnels are set up in Manhattan to feed two 'stub end' terminals at Penn Sta, thus there is a two-way pair of tracks under 31st? and 33rd? Streets . The two inner tunnels cross in Long Island City which is why the portals are not at the same location for all four tubes. This brings the inbound and outbound tracks next to each other in the normal four track configuration. The routing into the tubes is based on the track to be used in Penn Sta.
I had a suspicion that the two inner tracks crossed. Thanks for the info.
The LIRR/Amtrak tunnels between Penn and LIC are numbered as follows north to south:
4-3-2-1 in Penn Station.
4-2-3-1 in LIC
2 and 4 are for westward traffic
1 and 3 are for eastward traffic
Your train uses Line 1 to leave Penn; the bi-levels use Line 3.
Lines 2 and 3 cross in LIC just before the portals. This enables westward trains to choose Lines 2 or 4 for any trip. Conversely, 1 and 3 are set up to make a parallel entry into LIC.
The numbering of the lines is in contrast to the normal "east is even" configuration used for all tracks on the LIRR system. Remember that the East River tunnels are Amtrak property, not LIRR.
Thanks for the info. It was most helpful
Day 25 is about to begin, but some good news. Talks have resumed since the City Council threat to go to court and order an injunction became a reality on Mon 6/22. Progress is apparently being made. Maybe we'll have SEPTA service back in time for the Fourth of July?
What are the issues. Passenger Transport reported that the City is looking for woork rule concessions in reurn for pay hikes. Close or not at all??
Technically, the City is not a player, since the strike is between SEPTA and TWU. City Council threatened to take legal action to force the sides to meet (and, depending on who you believe, this is what's prompted the re-start of talks, although the last paycheck went out to TWU folks on 6/18 +/- and this, plus the upcoming vacation season, may have had more to do with it).
There are roughly 47 issues on the table, and this is down to about a dozen. Monetary/pay gains were never an issue - the bigger ones are a zero-tolerance drug policy and the hiring of part-time workers. TWU has said from the outset that it will budge on neither.
At least they're talking...
For you bus followers, NYCT RTS 1143 has showed up in the care of Elise Corp. of South Jersey, where many used buses gather. It is painted in the livery of the Park Towne Place Apartments and provides shuttle service between the apartments and Center City Phila. It replaces a GM fishbowl which had been looking fairly decrepit lately.
NYCT never had an RTS with that number. The lowest # was 1201 (by the way: a museum bus)
That Park Towne Place shuttle runs right past my office door. I've seen that bus also. Maybe it belonged to one of the NYC DOT operators? I'll try to get a better look at the number (or what's left of it) on the bus. The rear door (push out) definitely looks like NYC specs.
Could the number be "4143", instead of "1143"?
Michael S. Buglak
Yes, if the last 3 digits are 143 - it could be 4143 or even 3143.
I saw the Park Towne bus again todau up close-it is definitely ex-NYCT with the 2 emergency lights & the block number box. I was able to get a better view of the # on the back-it looks like either 1443 or 1493 to me. The side sign still reads "EMERGENCY" (flips top-to-bottom to) "GET POLICE"!
(Hey, when your own transit system has been on strike for 26 days, you have to take anything you can find?!?!)
Michael S. Buglak
Whichever number it is it would be part of the first order of GMC-RTS purchased by the NYCTA in 1981.
According to the UTC bus roster, 1493 is at ABC Bus of Minnesota, which is in Camden, NJ (?beats me!) I don't know if this is the company that operates that shuttle, but this is probably it. 1443 was sent to Gershow Scrap yard, and 3193 is still running at East NY.
.
ABC in Camden has a yard near Admiral Wilson Blvd and Federal St. It also has a larger one further east on the Blvd near the Airport Circle (hint - don't look for the airport, there's none there!). This yard is and has been loaded with old TA RTS's since last fall. It reconditions and resells them. There are also many various MC-9's and other MCI buses that go to the second-hand market.
Sorry about the misinfo on the number - it's been hot here lately! I only got a glimpse of it one day and have been looking for it since. I'll try to get a better read on the number (which, by the way, is only visible on the rear). Thanks to Mike B. and others for their help here.
You're very welcome, Bobw. (BTW, I got the number of 1493 when on Friday it took a strange turn from 20th Street onto Appletree Street (a quite narrow side street only about 12-14 feet wide) & had quite a time turning onto 21st Street-Unusual sight indeed!)
Michael Buglak
Thanks. I saw it again this morning and got a better look at the rear number plate, which is the only place I could find that gives any hint of the former number. Guess the old eyes aren't what they used to be (and they weren't all that great back then, either!).
I wonder what possessed the driver to turn onto Appletree Street. Perhaps he was an old Public Service operator who was used to turning onto narrow Cuthbert Street to enter the old Union Bus Terminal at 13th and Filbert. I was quite young when Union was in its final days but I recall many PS buses making that tight turn with relative ease. And, to compound matters, many of the buses that were not stopping at Broad and Cherry once they left Union (most weren't, but there were several that did) turned from Filbert onto narrow Juniper Street and zipped along it to Race Street or sometimes Vine Street. I guess PS liked the narrow streets.
With the discussion about destination signs and the disappearance of roll signs, I wonder what future sign collectors will collect. And if they get an electronic box, will they be able to view all the routes and destinations in it?
I have a number of old IRT metal signs and sign curtains from R-10s, R-12/14/15s, ABs, and a 'via' sign box from an R-11 (all obtained legitimately) and I can look at them any time I want.
How could someone look at one of those electronic yellow signs at home? From looking at the codes published by the ERA in the last few years, it looks rather challenging, to say the least. What's the system and what voltage would be necessary?
Ed Alfonsin/SUNY at Potsdam
Where can I find underground photos of multi track levels in the Times Square, GCT, and Penn. Stn. areas?
I've always heard rumours that there is a 3rd, freight level at Grand Central. In fact, my father in law said he worked there as a teen, bringing freight up in elevators, but half the time he's just pulling my leg. Other people say that the 3rd level is bunk. Has anyone seen such a level? How many tracks?
Joe Brennan discussed the reputed third level in some detail as part of his expose of the 1993 book "The Mole People." There might be a link to the page elsewhere in NYC Subway Resources, otherwise try www.columbia.edu/~brennan.
There were once some loop tracks at GCT for turning single end trains. Could these be the source of this rumor?
[There were once some loop tracks at GCT for turning single end trains. Could these be the source of this rumor?]
Could be. There's also a passageway running below the lower level tracks, at right angles to them, which was used for baggage back when long-distance trains served GCT. Apparently some skells did take up "residence" in this passageway, though presumably they've been chased out.
I was always curious as to what procedures are there in order to film movies in the subway. Are there certain stations in the system that producers are only authorized to film in such as Hoyt-Schermerhorn and Court St. How much trouble is it to hire a train for your filming and can you request a specific type of rolling stock? Buses included.
While I'm not an authorithy on this subject by any means, it's safe to assume that any filming in the subway which involves revenue trackage is done during non-rush hours to minimize disruption. Hoyt-Schermerhorn and Court St. are ideal locations because they contain non-revenue trackage. I don't think there are limitations as far as equipment selection is concerned; they even keep older rolling stock on hand for period films (like the Triplex train in Class of '44). Then again, retired R-1/9s were used in Nighthawks, possibly because the script called for Sylvester Stallone to kick in the window of a strom door to gain access to the train.
The turnarounds are something different than a third level. The turnarounds are still there. They run from 100's level on the E. side to the W. side (or vice versa, as you like it). They extend south to about 40th street or so, and are not longer used. That is for two reasons. First MNCRR rolling stock has no need to turn around. Second, the tunnels are too narrow, and the rolling stock gets stuck and derails, as happened once some years back. The idea of service to the financial district usually incorporates the beginings of these tunnels (if the idea is to stop first at GCT) or the unused tracks east of track 13 (if there is to be no stop).
I have also heard of a third and fourth lower levels, independantly of the "Mole people." I am told by MNCRR people that they are unlit and abandonded, and may contain some decaying rolling stock but little else. If you go to track 41 (or 40 -- the westernmost upper level track) you can see a pit containing some tanks and other equipement that is clearly below the lower level. How far it might go is anyone's guess. In all my years of riding MNCRR, I have never seen a track, stairs, or anything else leading down from the lower level.
I am very suspicious of claims that there is a 3rd or fourth level of any significant size for the following reason: there are enough people fascinated by the subject that surely someone would have discovered something by now (I mean, hey, if we found the Atlantic Street tunnel . . . ). On the other hand, I would not be surprised if, in the process of sinking the tracks 80+ years ago, some construction was done at a grade below the current lower level tracks. Perhaps that accounts for the rumors.
--mhg
There is electrical equipment deep beneath Grand Central accessible by a freight elevator. Maybe this is the source of the roumour??
--Mark
There is definitely a 3rd level at Grand Central that has several tracks and platforms. It is accessible from the elevator cars that are behind (and a bit to the right, i.e. east) of the escalators that lead up to the former Pan Am building. Last year, while working for NYNEX, I had several occasions to go down to that level in order to access the telephone "frame room", which is behind a locked gate on that level that is monitored by a video camera.
Well, there is at least one person who links my father-in-law is not BSing me about the 3rd, freight level at GCT. Funny, he was a telephone guy too. You don't think all the telephone guys have a conspiracy to spread this myth, do you?
I've been accused as dreaming in the past for other items, so I may as well stick my 2cents in here.
About 10 or more years ago I was quite active in the Mohawk and Hudson Chapter of the NRHS. The chapter had their own coach which would be tacked onto Amtrak trains in Rensselaer and we would go off on our trips. At one point the chapter was interested in establishing a Railroad Museum in the Colonie Yards of the the D&H RR ( or was it Guilford at that time?) We had hopes of obtaining the ex-DRG&W Diner and Domes that the D&H used on the Laurentian. On one of out trips to GCT, the then president told me the cars were in storage at GCT and he lead me, (I was Treasurer) on an inspection tour of the equipment. We went down to a level that had no platforms to see these cars. The cars were vandalized, had been previously set on fire and were showing signs of being lived in. I do not really know if I was on a second level or a third level. All I know we went down at least one level from the one we arrived on, It was dark and I was scared.
Oh yes.....I have not read the book about Mole People so that has no bearing on my memory
Marty,
Your description of the cars and tracks meshes perfectly with what I had been told by MNCRR personel -- dark, old/vandalized/burnt out cars, w/ people sometimes living in them. I was also told that it was very hot that area, that there were sudden dropoffs and pits that were not fenced off or lit, and that the rats are huge (whatever that means).
I would love to hear more from you and Dan Schwartz about the layout and condition of this area, if you have any other recollections.
--mhg
Mark
I wish I had paid more attention.
I don't know if I was on a third level or a second level away from platforms. Would Amtrak have come into the upper or second level?
I seem to recall walking into the terminal building from the platform, and going to the right, where we then went out on another platform and accessed a stairwell very close to the terminal, quite steep, and only protected by iron railing on three sides.
We made the trip. un-escorted and pretty much in a hurry. I had the distinct impression we were doing something quite illegal, which is probably the real reason I was scared.
MGH....sorry no typo
I'm going to bring up this third-level issue on nyc.transit. Hopefully someone from Metro-North will see it and be able to respond. It sure is getting intriguing ...
Years back, there was a rather serious fire in the GCT tunnels or around that area. Was that fire on the "third level"?
As I mentioned, the third level is accessed via elevators from the main concourse. The elevators make four stops, identified by letters, I don't remember the letters offhand, but will have a look when I get the chance to refresh my memory. They seemed like somewhat arbitrary letters to me, but the four stops are the balcony overlooking the main concourse (top of escalators), the main concourse, the (regular) lower level, and the third level. Getting off the elevator at the third level, there are, I think, three tracks on your left. These tracks have "platforms" associated with them. I think I remember seeing some rolling stock parked on at least one track, but I don't remember exactly what. I think there was at least one track to the right as well, but that it was blocked by some type of metal structure so that trains could not use it. Anyone can ride the elevators I mentioned and get to this part of the third level.
Making two left turns from the elevators brings you to a blocked-off corridor clearly marked "danger, keep out" or something like that. Pat that point, there are indeed unmarked and unfenced drops, leading to other trackways which I believe are the remains of the famous "turn-around tracks". They are definitely not in operable condition, or at least were not when I saw them last summer. Parts of them, I think, are buried in mud. There are several construction shacks set up in this area, and I had to help run a telephone line to one of them, with the wire running over various pipes in the "roof" of this area. (A very tall ladder was needed to do this; for the most part, I just held it for the guy who actually climbed up and threaded the wire from one pipe or other support in the ceiling to the next.)
Getting back to the area where the previously mentioned warning sign is, looking to the right from this point reveals, in the corner, a sliding metal gate. Beyond that gate there are stairs which lead down to the "frame room", which is where we ran the cable from. This room is air-conditined, not for human comfort but to protect the equipment within it. There are what I believe are fiber-optic cables that run along the railroad right of way from GCT to New Haven and Boston, and they terminate here. There are also telephone lines serving the various tennants within GCT, such as the Oyster Bar, the construction trailers I mentioned, and the various retail stores in the terminal. Outside the frame room is a room used by Metro-North personnel, I think for storage of various records, I am not sure exactly what.
Stan Fischler, The author of Subway and several othe books, wrote one in 1985 entitled "Next Stop Grand Central". Unfortunately it is a book that deals with the Metrolpolitan Area Commuter Railroads in general. There are only a few pages that deal with GCT itself. He does mention a book by William Middleton on GCT but does not give its title. Being a traction fan I am quite aware of the knowledge of Mr. Middleton.
I located a 14 page, May 1975 "Trains" magazine article by Mr. Middleton entitled, "The Grandest Terminal of the All'. The article contains track diagrams and a cutaway drawing of GCT. After reviewing the article briefly, I feel that I was probably in an area of storage tracks on the 2nd Level. Possible communication and power cable areas did not make the sketch. I seriously doubt that a third level of tracks would have been overlooked by Mr.Middleton.
Does anyone know the title of book that Stan Fischler mentions?
I also recall from a post last night that David was going to talk to Jason D. on another matter. With the interest that Jason has displayed in the commuter scene through his web pages, I would be interested in hearing what he has to say on a third level.
I should have added.
I wonder if we are being confused by the ramps down to the platform levels. In the Middleton track layouts, it appears that each level has runaround tracks. In the Terminal Building itself, the run around tracks would be on a second and third level, below the Concourse.
I have to run, but I will reread this article carefully. I'm not sure, but at the 2 plan views could be showing the location of the same runaround tracks. I wish there was an elevation view.
The lettersin the elevator are "E", which is the balcony (I used to have to change elevators there to get one that went up to the 4th florr to go to the old ERA office), then there's P, U, and I think L. I forgot which are which. I checked out the lower two once, and if I remember correctly, the next one down from the main level is simply the FIRST track level (which is lower than the concourse), and then the lowest level is the 2nd level. I'll have to check it out again.
Hmm. I guess I wasn't thinking that there was enough vertical clearance between the main concourse and the first track level for them to be two separate stops on the elevator. I just knew I went "down two levels" from the main concourse, and concluded that I was on a "third" level. Perhaps, in fact, I wasn't. If not, I apologize for any confusion I have caused.
If the first track level is a full floor below the main concourse, does that mean that the lower-level concourse is at about the same elevation as the first track level? Why would the terminal have been built this way?
It isn't. The tracks at the eastern and western ends of the terminal are lower than those in the center. There are several drop-off's of a few feet between tracks at the western end of the terminal, and probably in the eastern end as well (but there is limited access east of track 13). I should add that they are lower relative to the floor of the main concourse I've never done any surverying, but I believe that the track yard slopes, rather than the concourse, because in all the years I've been in GCT I've never felt that the floors were slanted.
The upper level tracks are, in the area of the main concourse, perhaps 10' below the floor of the concourse. The lower level tracks are on a n entirely different horizontal level, completely below the upper level tracks. The turnaround tracks (there are two), run from two tracks on the western side of the lower level to two tracks on the eastern side. They extend as far sound as about 40th or 41st streets. These tracks are significantly deeper that lower level concourse, (think about the number of stairs to get the them) because they pass entirely underneath the lower-level concourse, the old auto ramps, baggage areas, etc., etc. However, if the extend to the #7 line, they would be above it.
One last thing. The elevators that we're talking about may be closed at present due to the renovations.
Hope this helps.
--mhg
I decided to run up to GCT today for lunch. First of all, Mark is right. I had gotten the levelos mixed up, and its's the lower tracks that are a full level below the lower concourse, not the upper tracks, which are as he said just a few feet or less lower than the main concourse. So on the elevators (which are still running, Mark). E is "Esplanade"--the balcony. U is upper concourse and platforms, L is the Lower concourse, and P is the lower platforms. This is the lowest the elevators go. On P level, this places you BEHIND the ramp and stairways, and one may not recognize it if he's only used the ramp, abd think he is on another level. It is true, Dan that if you make 2 lefts, you will see the tracks heading for the turnaround. The "etal structures" blocking the tracks are simple foot bridges for passengers and workers. Kind of like what is used at Times Sq. on the shuttle.
Now straight ahead from the elevator is the bumping block of track 103. On the platform to the left of this is an old elevator nailed shut with a board. Right behind this is a fire escape type stairway going down, in sort of a little gated room. (like sidewalk utility vents when men are working in them). A sign said "employees only", and it was pitch black when it went below the floor. I wonder if this is what Marty was taken down. But a worker I asked didn't know what was down there. Now toward the northern ends of the platforms you couls see a glass brick wall. Looking closer, it was a New stairway, going, guess what, DOWN. Hearing work going on down there, I went down, and saw a new shiny marble walled underpass under construction. This is probably what was the old baggage passageway Peter mentioned. I't will be reopened as part of the northern access project. Once again, a worker did not know if anything was still lower.
Now heading west, Beginning with track 115, the tracks continue andbegin curving for the toop. On track 116 is an old NY Central car used for storage. Track 117 is against the wall, but looking south the wall ends and there are more tracks behind it heading for the loop. In Hall D (The SW elevator plaza) there is a machine or boiler room that is half a level down.
THIRD TRACK LEVEL: (But not where you think)--
Now if you're on the L level (lower concourse) and you go through the doorway marked track 116, you come out on a walkway above the tracks, with stairways leading down to P. Now on the far left (west) is a door, marked "Track area), and behind it is a low level platform and some more tracks, making the curve. Some M types were parked to the north. Now this still ON the L level--ABOVE the P level and below the U level! so this is a third track level.
Upon leaving, someone did tell me of a "yard level", but i was really beginning to think that what people are thinking of are the distant corners of the L and P levels. But back at work, I asked a coworker who once worked for the MTA and he said there is "a whole 'nother world" beneath the second level that was no longer used. Workers would not even go down there, and new workers would be teased by being given "assignments" down there. He said it was sealed off, adid have pits that were to inspect under trains (like any yard facility has).And one of the posters on the Nyc transit newsgroup also answers to the affirmative. So I ask if mMarty remembers where this "steep stairway" was. Was it the one I saw at track 103?
I guess the best thing would be to go on the ERA's tours of the terminal. which is advertized as "goingin into forgotten parts of the terminal". I was interested in the past, but it was 30 or 40 dollars. I'll save up for it now. I hope they have it soon. Although, I was told, they might not go down there anymore because it is so dangerous, and they were afraid someone would get hurt, or someone once did get hurt.
Another correction: I had just said that someone on the newsgroup had answered in the affirmative. What I meant was that he said he had some list of tracks that that there are 62 TRACKS UNACCOUNTED FOR!
So the plot thickens!
Well, if there is a hidden area, one should be able to find out by looking at some track diagram of GCT. If anyone has a map of GCT, I'd like to see it (or Penn Sta). Would MTA people really know what's there? Some forgotten area perhaps?
Wouldn't the City of New York have record of a building permit -- with blueprints -- from when GCT was originally built?
The building permit system came in some time in the 1920s. There are no permits and no Certificate of Occupancies before that time.
Interesting lawywer story. We hire this lawyer a friend recommended to help us close on our house. All he really has to do is look over the paperwork, but I have one concern -- our house was built in 1915, before there was a c of o, and mortgage banks have a history of giving people a hard time on this issue. So I tell him I'm concerned. He says it shouldn't be a problem. I say I KNOW it SHOULDN'T be a problem, but make sure it isn't a problem. He says not to worry about it.
The bank is slow with the paperwork, and now my wife is eight months pregnant. The seller is 90 years old and sick. The date is a must for both of us -- the daughter and son-in-law stay with the mom at a hotel in the city the night before. Then there is a blizzard, and the bank calls and tries to cancel the closing, but we won't let them. So we show up and their lawyer (who, as is the custom, I'm also paying) is nasty as hell.
In the middle of 1,000 details I don't understand, the bank says it can't close because it has found out the front porch doesn't have a C of O (a classic suburban hitch misapplied in Brooklyn). I go nuts: "the front porch is original, and the whole building doesn't have a C of O! Haven't you ever closed in Brooklyn before?" An hour later, a friend of the title guy who works at the Building's department faxes a letter to the bank's lawywer (who has probably closed on 10,000 pre-1920 houses) that no, there is no C of O for a house that old. And they accept the letter. See, my lawywer said, you shouldn't have worried.
The New York Central company's archives, if they exist, might have plans. So might the map room in the New York Public Library.
No building permit system before the '20s. That's funny, because I was reading a terribly popular novel set in 1890s Manhattan, a mystery-thriller (some people may have already guessed which book I am speaking of), and one of the absolutely key clues comes from checking the building permit records. So much for the author's much-vaunted in-depth historical research! (It's still a good book, all the same.)
There was something before the 1920s, because the New York Tenament House Law (old law) dated to the late 1900s. But the formal system of publically recorded permits, certificates of occupancy, etc. dates to the "New Law" which passed at the end of the "progressive" era. My guess is without permits and c of os, the old law was unenforcible. Kind of like the zoning which restricts the reuse of existing buildings today.
A book I mentioned in an earlier post (John A. Droege's "Passenger Terminals and Trains," a 1969 reprint by Kalmbach of the 1916 first edition) has several pages of GCT track diagrams, as well as of Pennsylvania Station, the Boston stations, North River railroad terminals, some interlocking diagrams, and other interesting material.
The only fault I find with it is that one needs a magnifying glass or equivalent to see the detail on the diagrams.
I doubt if it's still in print, but a dealer in used railroad books might have the reprint (or even a copy of the original).
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
I'm here for a couple of minutes. Switched to RoadRunner Tuesday and as my luck would have it the Cable has been up and down all afternoon.
That fireescape sounds like it, Eric,
I've been e-mailing to Mark about an article in a 1975(May) Trains article by William Middleton. I am throughly confused now because this article suggests (careful reading reveals that it was the NYC VP & ChEng. plans to have turn around loops at both levels) with track maps that run- arounds are at both level.
I wish I could run down to NYC and look myself, but am leaving for Alaskan Vacation this weekend.
One thing that I think I read in one of Mark's Posts is also haunting me. I think he made the statement that as you move east and west from the center tracks on the upper level, adjacent tracks are at slightly lower levels.
Did I understand this correctly?
When I moved to the Albany Area in the early 50's, I would return to the city through GCT almost weekly for five years. Oh the things I wished I paid attention to.
I was thinking thatperhaps the tracks I saw behind the door on L level were the tracks that came down from the upper level. Also, I forgot to add. that I'm sure these tracks and the ones on P level beyond 117 (behind the wall) would account for SOME of the missing 62 tracks. But not ALL.
Subject: Re: Grand Central tracks (was Re: Grand Central third level)
From: "A. Pierce Haviland Jr."
Date: 7/3/98 8:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: <359D7839.94A14E6B@quuxuum.org>
Peter Rosa wrote:
> The area that would be used for future LIRR access would be in the
> >Madison Avenue Yard from tracks 118 to 125. This was once used as a shop,
> but is
> >now strictly a storage area.
>
> From the track numbers, am I correct in assuming that the Madison Avenue
> Yard is located to the west of the lower level?
The tracks of the Madison Avenue Yard are located to the west of track 117 on the lower level. They are also visible from the platform on track 42 of theupper level and appear to be "another level". This is where the fire occurred on the old coaches. The area is now used only for temporary storage (daily layovers, etc.). As for the stairs on the north end of track 103, they lead down to the steam tunnel that runs across (East West) the building. In the 70s, I would use this route to cut across the terminal while working as a yard fireman (as in assistant engineer, not a fire fighter). This area is strictly off limits, and the stairway is protected by a gate that is locked. I hope this helps resolve all the mystery.
Pierce Haviland
This must be the answer folks. And it once being a shop, that would explain the "sudden unprotected drops (inspection pits) And note, he must have meant "south end of track 103" as the baggage passage which will be reopened to the public is on the north, and the gated stair is in the south. Oh well, the nice few days of suspense and intrigue were worth it.
(But still, what is the area workers did not want to go into? Or is that just a rumor or tale also?)
I do know there still is "a whole 'nother world" connected with GCT-- the tracks leading to it. It comes up every once in a while on the news. On article even had the reporter go down from an entrance on the side of the Waldorf, and cross live 3rd rails and the homeless had their own world down there. Then there are the closed stations mentioned in discussions not too long ago. With such complexity it is natural that such rumors would develop.
Eric
I quess I did not get my correction to you because you're not linked with an e-mail address.
After reviewing the maps in the Middleton article, and even though I find myself questioning their accuracy and date of representation, I did conclude that I was in the area of tracks west of 117 along the Madison Ave side, probably in the track 118/125 area. The Middleton map suggests that there are tracks 38 to 42 under these tracks. I'm thinking that he has reversed the levels, since I thought the long distance express trains came in on the low numbered tracks on the upper level.
Wife is screaming. Got to get packed for my early morning flight to Seattle.
Again if you can find it.
Trains Magazine - May 1975 - The Grandest Terminal of Them All
William Middleton
So tracks 38-42 are probably be the ones I saw above 118-125, on the L level
After reading through all this, is this the "answer" subtalkers have come up with? -- There is a semi-abandoned series of tracks on a separate level to the west of the station, which is used for layups and inspection. The separate level is actually located higher than the lower level tracks, rather than below them.
Remember way back to my first post. As a teen (this would be in the early to mid 1950s), my father in law said he had a job unloading boxes from boxcars on the third, freight level of Grand Central. The boxes were brought up in a set of freight elevators which were large enough to accomodate a forklift and pallet. The freight was high value express stuff -- flowers, fresh fruit, newspapers and magazines, express mail and packages, stuff that probably travels by air today.
Is the above explanation consistent with what my father-in-law says he remembers?
Larry,
I think that the answer is that we still don't know. It's clear that there are unused tracks on both the upper and lower levels that are at the eastern and western margins of the terminal. No doubt these tracks are used for layups and inspections. Also, at one time, they were clearly used for freight (e.g. milk deliveries occurred on the upper level on the east side).
I also think that people are confused by the fact that the terminal has two levels of concourse and (at least) two levels of track, for a total of four level upon which people can physically stand. The fact that the tracks apear to dip downward at the margins of the terminal doesn't help matters.
I don't think that there is much evidence of a third level that once contained tracks -- at least, not a level that is directly below some part of the lower level. There are certainly deeper structures in the terminal, e.g. the frieght handling system. But, no evidence that trains could descend below the lower level, and certainly no evidence of track ramps visible from any part of the terminal that is in revenue service of visible from a platform. Also, there is no evidence in the terminal today of a way for people to get down to that level -- at least, not not the large numbers who would be boarding trains at the same time.
So, that's where we are.
--mhg
The items unloaded are consistent with the functions of the baggage/express building torn down in 1960 to make way for the Pan Am building. This building was linked by elevator to the platforms below. In particular, tracks 31 and 22 were involved. These were half length tracks which did not come south to the normal bumper block position near the concourse. Mail/express cars were handled there, then cut into long distance trains (upper level). These tracks are now removed. The adjacent tracks 30,32 and 23,21 have their own island platform groups. The extra platforms between 30/32 and 21/23 were for the circulation of mail/express only. These are the platforms to be used as the north/south pedestrian walkways that are about to open.
Whoa, this sounds like the "third level" is actually the track level for the lower level. In other words, unlike the upper level where the tracks are at the same level as the concourse, the tracks of the lower level have to be reached by stair or ramp one level lower. They may have cleared out some of the storage tracks in order to fit the electronic gear. How the turnaround tracks got so encased in crud is something of a mystery to me.
If you had read The Mole People you would not have gone down then.
It would help if a track drawing of GCT were scanned and available to everyone. One would then find lower level tracks 118-127 which have no platforms. This storage area will be used under current LIRR entry plans.
When the North end access project opens one will get a better sense of the issue of elevations. The 47th street crosspassage will connect up to the street, but itself be placed below the upper level (UL) track and over the LL track. There is a large vertical gap there roughly at the same elevation as the LL concourse. The LL tracks will connect to all of this by going down to the 45th st crosspassage, then up to the N/S walkways at the upper track level. Confused? Only walking it will clarify it.
The 45th st crosspassage was filled with workshops. It is the true lower limit in elevation at GCT. The stairwells down from the platfrom are in the old baggage elevator slots. These ran upward to the old baggage building now replaced by the Pan Am building.
Dan, WOW you realy started something, what a great bunch of posts !
Mr t__:^)
You read right I was reading the Daily news and they were ranking the lines on cleaness, on time trains, least breakdowns and more and on the side they showed how much every line is worth. None were worth the token. The 7 train came in first with a cost of a $1.20 second came the 4 with the cost of .90 the A train came near the last with a cost of .75 cents believe it or not they say that J and Z give a better ride with .85 I think that they have never ridden the A to the Rockaways
If you take the F train during rush hour, they shoud PAY YOU! I believe that time spent on the F Line in the day time will count as credit when we are all burning in hell.
The daily riders of the Never and Rarely lines would probably beg to differ.
(Marty - is this enough never and rarely for ya :)
--Mark
Ya
I guess its Eternal and Forever today
The number 7 train has one big advantage - isolation! It does not share its tracks or cars with any other line. The L comes close, sharing only cars. It would be interesting to see the rankings for all the lines.
<<"It would be interesting to see the rankings for all the lines"
What the Daily News and all these posts are apparently quoting was the Straphangers' Campaign annual survey. That was the front-page story in yesterday's Newsday, which published a chart with the rankings of all the lines, if you're interested.
By the way, though I can't confirm or dispute the comparisons, I think there may be a problem with the way they were expressed ... by the survey, by the news coverage of it, or maybe by both.
The Newsday article, and other stuff quoted in this thread, said or implied that people felt (or that the ratings for reliability, cleanliness, etc., indicated) that none of the subway lines were worth the full $1.50 fare -- that they were, as the Newsday headline put it a "Bad Deal."
Yet the Newsday piece said that $1.50 was the HIGHEST POSSIBLE RATING a line could achieve. This seems to suggest a bias that probably deflated the "values" artificially.
Unless I'm mistaken, this rating system means that if a line had been found to be 99 percent reliable, clean 99 percent of the time, offering vacant seats 99 percent of the time etc., it still would be deemed "Not Worth A Token," i.e., worth only $1.49, or $1.48.
Who's to say that such a nearly perfect NYC subway line (imaginary though it may be), wouldn't be worth MORE than $1.50? Maybe people would pay $2 or $2.50. (Hey, someday you'll have to).
If you let people (or a numerical rating system) set ANY price for a ride, lower OR HIGHER than a buck fifty, I'm sure you'd find that our better lines, imperfections and all, are worth paying a mere $1.50 for --- a sentiment expressed thousands of times a day at the turnstiles.
Can anyone clarify this for me? Am I wrong to see a statistical bias here?
No your not wrong. The Straphangers kvetch too much. Not that you shouldn't expect more and better, but I remember riding in 1983.
I believe the viewpoint of NYPIRG, of which the straphangers are a part, is that the transit system should be free, like the parks or police, and funded by taxes on the wealthy. If you look at it that way, the nickel ride was too much. This viewpoint goes back a long way. Of course, nothing is free, its just that some things are paid for by someone else.
Of course, if none of the lines were worth $1.50, all the trains would be empty. (Oh, sorry, there might be a few fare beaters on the trains.) It seems like quite a few people feel that each line is worth at least $1.50.
<<"It would be interesting to see the rankings for all the lines"
What the Daily News and all these posts are apparently quoting was the Straphangers' Campaign annual survey. That was the front-page story in yesterday's Newsday, which published a chart with the rankings of all the lines, if you're interested.
By the way, though I can't confirm or dispute the comparisons, I think there may be a problem with the way they were expressed ... by the survey, by the news coverage of it, or maybe by both.
The Newsday article, and other stuff quoted in this thread, said or implied that people felt (or that the ratings for reliability, cleanliness, etc., indicated) that none of the subway lines were worth the full $1.50 fare -- that they were, as the Newsday headline put it a "Bad Deal."
Yet the Newsday piece said that $1.50 was the HIGHEST POSSIBLE RATING a line could achieve. This seems to suggest a bias that probably deflated the "values" artificially.
Unless I'm mistaken, this rating system means that if a line had been found to be 99 percent reliable, clean 99 percent of the time, offering vacant seats 99 percent of the time etc., it still would be deemed "Not Worth A Token," i.e., worth only $1.49, or $1.48.
Who's to say that such a nearly perfect NYC subway line (imaginary though it may be), wouldn't be worth MORE than $1.50? Maybe people would pay $2 or $2.50. (Hey, someday you'll have to).
If you let people (or a numerical rating system) set ANY price for a ride, lower OR HIGHER than a buck fifty, I'm sure you'd find that our better lines, imperfections and all, are worth paying a mere $1.50 for --- a sentiment expressed thousands of times a day at the turnstiles.
Can anyone clarify this for me? Am I wrong to see a statistical bias here?
That's just it. The shorter lines do better because after a problem, it's easier to catch up and its delay usually doesn't affect other routes. A bridge opening on the N/B on the Rockaway branch has an effect on on time performance all the way uptown.
The Daily News reports in today's (6/25/98) edition that a new study says that "traffic eventually will grind to a halt at intersections across Manhattan's East Side if officials don't build a Second Ave. subway line".
--Mark
This may be true, but what about the (also fictitious) 1st Avenue, 3rd Avenue and 5th Avenue lines????????????
Remember everyone that there was a transit line on Second Av until 1942 (1940 north of 59th St.) and one on 3rd Av. until 1955. "Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got til its gone!"
The Second Av. Subway was supposed to replace both of these.
Remember that the 6th and 8th Av subways replaced the 6th & 9th Av. Els. Could you imagine what the city would be like without any of the IND and no els?
What is the deal with those LIRR bi- level cars? Is the MTA going to buy them. What is their performence like. Do they Have low platform capabilities etc?
Introduction of the bi-level cars has been delayed (what a surprise!) Last I heard they should be entering service sometime this fall. Supposedly the Port Jefferson line will the the first to get them, followed by Montauk, Oyster Bay, and Greenport, in that order. The cars won't have low-level boarding capability, which is why the LIRR had to build high platforms at a number of stations (and close others that lacked enough ridership to make new platforms worthwhile).
As far as I know Metro North has no interest in buying any of the bi-levels. They have a suitable fleet of single-level Bombardier diesel coaches ... which brings up the probing but unanswerable question of why the LIRR didn't simply buy some of them!
it figures the planners for the MTA LIRR would purchase new rolling stock requiring upgrading of station platforms to access new bi level cars. like you said the should have purchased the Bomardier coaches and i'm sure the overall cost would have been considerably lower
The wisdom of Bi-level cars can be debated but should not be confused with the issue of the station re-construction. Station platform reconstruction was necessary to provide access for the physically challanged. Whether or not ADA requires handicap access on commuter rail lines, it's the right thing to do. Besides, many of the low-level station platforms were old, in very poor condition and needed replacement anyway.
Most commuter rail properties are opting for Bi-level cars when purchasing new cars. Some of them are Go-Transit in Toronto, Caltran in California and Tri-rail in Florida. I'm sure that the extended capacities of Bi-levels is a major factor as is the cost/seat. The current Bi-levels have been a success on the LIRR, both in operation and with the customers. The negative feedback comes from the un-reliability of the re-manufactured dual-mode locos that pull them.
Bi-levels are also very popular on the MBTA "Purple Line" Commuter Rail. A drawback of our Kawasaki cars, however, is that with end-door loading/unloading only, the process is slower. With 170 or so seats per car (vs. 120 for single-level cars), about 40% more people must pass through the same number of doors.
Many transit agencies are going to high level platfroms or low floor cars to meet the requirements of the American's with disabilities act. Having a vehicle that can be boarded without steps does not require the car be equiped with a lift for the wheelchair bound. Over the long run not having to buy, maintain, and haul around the weight of those lifts willsave money. Although boarding without steps should speed loading it is probably negated in the LIRR case by the stairs internal to the car and the higher capacity of the car. The Boston MBTA Bilevels have 5 across seating. I have noticed that people seem to be getting bigger. I hope the LIRR cars will not jam the people in and they have sufficient room for comfort on long commutes into diesel territory.
These cars definately are needed. I was visiting family and friends in NY this week, taking the train twice from Penn Sta. to Smithtown (Port Jefferson branch)round-trip and once out to PJ. On the LIRR, 4 of the 5 cars on the Huntington-PJ run were without air-conditioning and in the fifth car, it was barely working. The conductor/trainmen were herding everyone into the one "cool" car.
On the MUs, there were at least 2 or three cars per train without cold air. What in the world is the LIRR/MTA doing? I can see deferring maintenance on the diesel-pulled cars to a degree since they will be replaced, but this is ridiculous. How/why do commuters put up with this?
On the plus side, New York City was cleaner than I've seen it in years and the subway system was pretty clean, too. A,C,E,#1,#2,#4,S (Times Square-GCT)and J trains ran as "advertised" and the A/C worked fine. I hadn't been back to NY in 2 years and I'm impressed by the job Guiliani is doing.
The M-1s are now over 25 years old and well overdue for an major overhaul. They are at a point where any maintenance is a bandaid over a major wound.
As for the subways and the Mayor: I think the mayor has done an excellent job. However, he has nothing to do with the subways as far as the improvements are concerned. IMHO - the only action he has taken related to the subways has been to force the merger of the NYPD and the transit police. My feeling is that this hurt more than helped.
Speaking of deferred maintenance, Hilary Ring of MTA planning gave a talk where I work a year to two ago. He said that the MTA was planning to cutback the maintenance on the Redbirds since they would be getting rid of them soon, so their reliability was expected to slip. But the #7 line, which is full of Redbirds, was highly ranked by the Straphangers anyway. Do we really want to get rid of them? What if the new trains show up and reliability goes down?
Solution: Cull the best of the Redbirds (others have suggested this)
and keep them rolling. Just be sure and check for body rot. Some of them (esp. the 8500-8600 series) have some corrosion.
Noticed that the oldest ones, the R26/28's still look pretty good for their ages.
Yaaaay!! Make them keep the Redbirds a-rollin'
Sorry. Riding the Lex every day has made me hopelessly sentimental.
They're noisy, they kind of clunk along -- just what a subway should be.
Say, did you notice, in the (fun) Time Out New York Subway Special issue, when they asked people, the one train people most often said they hated was the 6. But the one people most often said the liked best was ... the 6!
Yep, that's the Redbirds they're talking about.
Hey, I like the Redbirds, too. Culling the best of them is an excellent idea. Incidentally, that's what they did with the R-10s - 110 of them were fixed up and painted dark green. It's just too bad that a few of them didn't wind up on the A line for old time's sake.
Unfortunately, cutting back on maintenance is common practice when new cars are on the way. It happened with my beloved R-1/9s; it'll happen again with the Redbirds.
> R-10s - 110 of them were fixed up and painted dark green.
> It's just too bad that a few of them didn't wind up on the
> A line for old time's sake.
Well, not now. But check out these two new pictures that Jim Maurer sent me. Two beautiful shots of the R10's of which you speak on the "A" on the Jamaica Bay crossing.
-Dave
SOME OF THE R36 "REDBIRDS" WILL HAVE TO CONTINUE IN SERVICE. AFTER ALL 1400 REDBIRDS DO NOT EQUAL 1100 R142'S THAT ARE ON ORDER. OR WILL THE TA BE SHORT 300+ CARS?
My guess is that (most of) the R36 fleet will struggle on for a
few more years before being replaced too. Strange ones, those
Redbirds - the oldest ones look the best (the R26 and R28).
Dave,
If you do press a CD (and I hope you do), please make sure those 2
pics make it! My compliments to Jim Maurer!
Well, I guess I spotted a test run. I saw three double decker cars with an engine in the front & an engine in the back on the LIRR tracks that cross over the Long Island Expressway in Mastbeth, Queens. Is that the line that they're hardly using anymore? I saw this train around 6:30pm Thursday evening, July 9. Since I was in my car, I couldn't get much more detail, although I noticed the cars were painted blue and had MTA decals near the door...I was too far away to see whether it said Long Island Rail Road or just Metropolitan Transporation Authority.
Reggie
Well, I guess I saw the double decker cars. I was riding on the Long Island Expressway in Maspeth, Queens when I saw three blue double decker passenger cars with an engine in the front & the back. There were large MTA decals near the doors, although I was too far away to see whether they said Long Island Rairoad. This was about 6:30pm Thursday, July 9.
Actually, how long have these cars been around? I remember seeing double decker cars in 1991(!) parked by the Shea Stadium station. And I remember them being announced months before that.
The ten 'C-1' coaches have been on the property since 1991, in service on the Port Jefferson Branch (with FL-9 Dual Mode Locomotive providing motive power and HEP). These were a "pilot program" to test the viability of dula mode, bilevel service.
The new 'C-3' coaches are are presently under final testing and are anticipated to go into revenue service later this year....these will entirely replace the existing diesel hauled fleet. Both Dual Mode (DM-30) locomotives and Diesel Electric locos (DE-30) supplied by EMD will be used. (AC Propulsion in both cases)
I recall in the mid/late 50s they had some bi-levels at Bellmore to NY. I seem to recall that they had low access.
Personal opinion: I think NJT should buy some since their N E Corridor(NECL) and N Jersey Coast (NJCL) trains are usually packed. Assume that a one-level coach hold 110 (NJT average based on a flyer given out at Hoboken Festival 1998). Now assume that a Bi-level holds 190 (I am knocking out some seats for access to ADA and stairs) then you have two cars for the price of say 1 1/2. Let's go to 12 cars:
You are running "20car trains"(equivalent) with 12 car usage. for the cost of only the cost of "13 cars".
Maybe Bob S can comment, but I recall reading somewhere (dont remember where) that NJT should buy some bi-level.
What's the easiest subway route from 16th St. & 1st Ave. on the Lower East Side of Manhattan to 117 Prince Street (between Mercer and Green, or maybe Mercer and Wooster, I'm not sure.
bus
What train do i take to get to 612 86th St. from Stillwell ave. Coney is.
man. bound N train to59st (bklyn) go up stairs to southbound platform take 95st bound R to 86st (you will be on 86st and 4ave) walk eastbound on 86st to number 612 about 2 blocks
Lauren, you didn't say where along Stillwell Avenue you'll be starting your trip, but if you said something about "Coney Island." If you mean you're starting your trip at the Stillwell Avenue-Coney Island subway station, go downstairs and take a B64 bus at the corner of Stillwell & Mermaid Avenues. It'll let you off on 86th Street at 7th Avenue or 6th Avenue. For schedule information, use the MTA's Web site:
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us
David
[What's the easiest subway route from 16th St. & 1st Ave. on the Lower East Side of Manhattan to 117 Prince Street]
8th Avenue-bound L from the station at 1st Avenue and 14th Street to Union Square-14th Street, then a Brooklyn-bound N or R to Prince. Actually, if it's a nice day, walking wouldn't be a bad idea.
Isn't there a bus that goes into alphabet city that circulates over by NYU and Houston?
Yes, the former "East Broadway and Avenue B Bus Company" bus route, now the M9, runs along East Broadway and Avenue B up to 14th St. It runs about every 20-40 minutes, however. Also the 14th St bus has a branch that runs along Avenue A. Neither is a good alternative for this. The M15 Second Avenue bus may go near enough there by going to Houston St. and 2nd Avenue.
To really beat this to death, an alternative to getting the N or R at Union Square is the #6 to Bleeker Street. Another is the the L to 6th Avenue then the F to Broadway-Lafayette, which is also near Prince and Mercer.
In the time it took me to write this, she could have gone there are returned already.
GO TO NEAREST L LINE STA ON 14ST I BELIEVE ITS 3AVE TAKE L TO 8VE TRANSFER TO DOWNTOWN A,C,E TRAIN TO SPRING ST YOU WILL BE ON SPRING ST AND 6AVE WALK NORTHBOUND ON 6AVE TO PRINCE ST AND MAKE A RIGHT FOLLOW PRINCE EASTBOUND ABOUT 3-4 BLOCKS YOU WILL SEE GREENE OR MERCER ST.
1) There is an L Line station at 1st Avenue
2) From 6th Avenue Station, the F train goes to Broadway and Houston, one block from Prince.
3) From Union Square Station, the N and R goes to Prince and Broadway, zero blocks from Prince.
4) From Union Square Station, the 6 goes to Spring and Lafayette, also closer to Prince and Mercer.
It is easier to read without all CAPS.
Honestly, the subway is the worst choice because of the walking and stair climbing.
Better bet - since it's a very short trip:
M14 bus westward on 14th St. to Union Square - transfer to M6 or M1 bus southbound on Broadway to Prince St.
For your return trip - M1 runs northbound on Lafayette St., M6 runs northbound on 6th Ave. Keep in mind that M1 only runs on weekdays till about 6 PM if it goes below 8th St. and Broadway ("South Ferry" trips).
On a nice day, it's not a bad walk - maybe a half hour for an able bodied person. Follow the same streets as the bus routes noted.
How many tracks in the follow stations
a. Grand Central
b. Penn Station
c. Original Penn Station
Thanks.
i think penn station has 21 tracks 7 are for the lirr the rest are amtrack and njt. the old penn was not changed when they rebuilt the garden over it. at track level you see hint of the old penn station(stairs, railings,patforms)
Correction: At Penn the LIRR uses Track 13 thru 21, that's 9, and sometimes 12 as it's across the platform from 13. Many evenings I was on 13 waiting for a Amtrack (comming in from the Sunnyside Yard) to clear the tracks so we could use the eastbound.
21 is fun too because the last couple of cars hang off the end of the platform.
Mr t__:^)
If memory serves me right GCT has 26 passenger tracks on the upper level and 18 downstairs. Track numbers do not run 1-26 on the upper due to mail and yard tracks which do not have platforms. Please feel free to correct me...
So how did the authors of "Trivial Pursuit" figure that Penn was bigger then Grand Central ?????
I play this game from time to time with some friends & would love to win this one with them.
Mr t__:^)
The reason I asked this question was that I found a Metro North guide and it stated that Grand Central has 109 tracks (originally 123). However in the map of the station within the guide shows 30 tracks on the upper level (track 11 to 42) and 17 tracks (101 to 117) on the lower level. This adds to 47 tracks. Why the difference ? I suppose they might include some subway tracks in there (4/5/6/7 trains). Any ideas ?
I HAVE METS BALLGAME TICKETS THIS WEEKEND DOES ANYBODY KNOW IF THE 7 LINE STILL RUNS AN EXPRESS TO SHEA STADIUM ITS BEEN A WHILE SINCE IVE BEEN ON THAT LINE OR DO ES IT RUN LOCAL I KNOW THEY WERE DOING TRACK WORK THERE FOR A WHILE
The 7 does operate express, but not on weekends.
To be exact, the 7 has an eastbound express during evening rush hour, using the middle track (and a westbound express in morning rush hour). If you are going to an afternoon game, there will be no express train.
If you're going to the game on Saturday or Sunday, there is only the normal local service - but NYC Transit usually runs extra trains when big crowds are expected. This weekend will really be the test!
Go Yankees...go for a sweep!
The Duo Behind the Success of a Subway Train
By DAVID FIRESTONE
NEW YORK -- "I can't believe how many people don't take the local," Gregory Lombardi was saying
Thursday at the Shea Stadium subway station, getting ready for this weekend's Mets-Yankees series.
Lombardi is the car-equipment superintendent on the 7 line, the best-liked and most efficient of the city's
subway trains. "It's only like a five-minute difference."
"Not even five," said Dennis Peppel, the line superintendent, wearing his orange-mesh vest of authority.
"More like three and a half."
"Yeah," Lombardi said. "And people run for it even though they won't get a seat."
"I've seen people get off the local at Woodside, and walk across the platform and wait for the express,"
Peppel said, shaking his head in disbelief. "The local is going to get there before that express, but they give up
a seat to stand in an express that's crowded. I'll never figure that out. They have this perception that they're
zipping by all those stations, but when you really look at the big picture, three and a half minutes is really
nothing."
If it were any other line in the system, of course, this discussion would be ridiculous. Only a mathematician
could appreciate the sense of random mystery that pervades most of the New York City subway system,
clouding any rational decisions about whether to choose a local or an express. Locals often sweep by crawling
expresses; an express train will suddenly wind up on the local tracks; a Broadway train will suddenly pull into
Grand Central with only the vaguest indications of its intentions.
But not on the 7 line.
There is a serene, almost Swiss regularity about the humble red cars of the Flushing line, as if the subway
system were having an out-of-city experience. The line is perpendicular to Manhattan in more ways than one:
It has gone its own direction as far back as 1987, when it was first ranked the best, most reliable subway line
in the city by the Straphangers Campaign, an advocacy group. The ranking was reconfirmed in a survey by the
group that came out on Tuesday.
Peppel and Lombardi, who are the two officials most directly responsible for this pre-eminence, are quick to
point out that there are a few historical factors at work. The line, unlike virtually any other in the system, is a
relatively short closed loop, with no physical connection to any other tracks except for a switch to the N line
at Queensboro Plaza that is used only for maintenance.
So, while delays on the C line will also affect the E, the 7 has no other trains in its way that can damage its
reliability rating. Also, it is easier to pull 7 trains off the line for immediate maintenance.
But the two men were the ones who were responsible for restoring the line's fortunes after a dip in quality in
the early 1990s. Their boss, Joseph Hoffman, the Transit Authority's senior vice president for subways, said
they cooperate unusually well, working together to solve the problems that often stymie other lines.
"You're only as good as your last rush hour," Hoffman said, using the trainman's favorite aphorism, "and
these guys are as dependable as they come."
Lombardi, who describes himself as the Goodwrench of the 7, is responsible for maintaining the line's 389
cars, which were built for the 1964 World's Fair and were overhauled in the 1980s.
They may not be as spacious or as spiffy as some of the newer cars in the system, but the maintenance record
of the rattling old R-36 cars is better than those of all but the 4 line; cars on the 7 line break down about half
as often as those on the A line, for example.
Lombardi volunteered for the job in 1992, just to show his devotion to old rolling stock.
"It's a great job, and I've got a great staff," said Lombardi, 38, a Levittown resident whose grandfather was a
dispatcher on the Fulton Line and whose father is the subway's chief of operations. "I get out there in the yard
and it's like having my own personal train set."
Peppel, 48, who also had a Lionel set as a kid (it is still in the basement of his Woodhaven home), is
responsible for keeping the trains moving at a pace that exceeds almost any other. At rush hour, the trains
come through every 2.5 minutes, compared with a system average of more than six minutes. With that kind of
spacing, a short delay causes immediate backups.
"My biggest problem is things I can't control, like sick customers," he said. "You don't want to get sick on
my line from Queensboro Plaza down, because I only have one track in each direction, and we've got to start
dumping people off at stations."
Both men are conscientious enough to ride the line regularly, usually at the front window, soliciting
comments from customers; Lombardi listened carefully to the air brakes of passing trains during an interview,
writing down the numbers of maladjusted cars for a later inspection.
Both have worked their way up through the system since joining at age 18, and have watched with
satisfaction as the 7 became a lifeline for neighborhoods of blue-collar immigrants in Queens who rely on it as
they do a paycheck.
"This is the kind of line where, as soon as a train pulls out, the platform's full again," Peppel said. "And it's all
day and all night. That's why we do this job."
Friday, June 26, 1998 Copyright 1998 The New York
Marty
Nice article, but it raises one or two questions.
Merging services at junctions is always a nightmare, although grade separated junctions make matters much more smooth. The NYS must be pretty nightmarish in this respect because of its intricate network of services, and I can see that the 7 has an unfair advantage. However, looking at my subway map, it appears that the L also has this advantage, in fact more so because there are no expresses to worry about. So, is this line also in the top league of reliability? If not, why not?
Although it's isolated like the 7, the L train has a couple of disadvantages that limit its "quality ratings." Inadequate ventilation in the East River tunnel limits passage to one train at a time regardless of direction. This obviously slows things up considerably, in particular at rush hour. In addition, the R40 and R42 cars used on the L have been rather unreliable.
In a sense the F should be the perfect line, too. Southbound, it has one merge at Union Turnpike with the E, and a merge in Brooklyn at Bergen St. with the G. Northbound it's just Smith-9 and 5th Avenue. Otherwise it's a pretty straight shot. Similarly with the number 6. But just sharing platforms with other trains makes for trouble in being on-time or comfortable.
It might be also that there are only 3 stops in Manhattan on the 7, so the big crowds get on and off only at those 3 stops (and Qb. Plaza, and 74-Bway, too). But then the G would be the best in the world: no stops in Manhattan (I know -- "Don't get me started about THAT").
Who knows? Maybe the NYTimes could do a survey with all those people featured in Sunday Style at those parties... They could choose the best subway line easily ;-)
My wish would be for the featured wedding of the week to have been held in a subway station or the Transit Museum or something like that. Now that would be interesting... Maybe I can convince one of daughters to do that...hmmm.....
The same occurs in the morning and evening rush hours when customers constantly ask me where the limited bus is. I tell them unless your going all the way to the end of the line there is not much of a difference in minutes in getting to your destination.
I'd say the L is at a disadvantage with only one track in each direction as opposed to the #7 with the potential of 2 in each direction. If a train is held up on the 7, others could be routed around it; on the L, there's no where for them to go.
--Mark
I think that one of the reasons people love expresses, even when they are not faster (and people have figured this out), is that the expresses are more comfortable. You are not being started and stopped, which most folks probably consider uncomfortable. Also, not so much jostling as people move in and out at frequent stops. Lastly, its easier to read, sleep, or just zone out without the sounds of announcements, ding dongs, and doors at each station interrupting the white noise.
I am not saying that this makes it sensible to run from a seat on the local to stand on the express. But it is an advantage.
(thanks for posting a cool article, too)
I timed it on the way home today, and each local stop seemed to add about 40 seconds to the ride with slow down, speed up, loading, unloading, closing, pausing, moving. And additional nine local stations is six minutes. That's an hour per week at ten trips per week. Allowing for holidays and vacations, that's 48 hours per year -- two days. Over a 30 year career, that's two months lost from the prime of life.
It adds up. So does the time spent waiting due to long headways. People desperately want that time.
With all due respect I think you are over analizing. The point is in those 6 minutes, how many express trains pased you by? If you are analizing about how many extra minutes over a day, week, month or career, the solution is to move closer to your place of employment for a shorter commute. Also, in the question of car reliability on another thread based on the Straphangers Campaigns Report: How can the J M & L have different car reliability when they share the same cars interchangibly?
And some, like myself, just plain get satisfaction knowing that their (our) express is going to skip the next couple of stops whether it crawls or zooms along. No stopping, loading, unloading, etc.
"Locals often sweep by crawling expresses; an express train will suddenly wind up on the local tracks; a Broadway train will suddenly pull into Grand Central with only the vaguest indications of its intentions."
Could someone kindly explain to me how a Broadway train could pull into Grand Central? It wouldn't even fit. (I know, they mean the Seventh Avenue line, but we all know what the Broadway line is.)
And since when did trains have intentions? (Granted, they often seem as though they do.)
Very good David. I was waiting for someone to catch this excellent demonstration of investigative reporting. It must happen on the tracks on the third level. It's just like the movies. Any train can go to any station at anytime.
You mean you never heard of the secret tunnel which August Belmont used for his private car, the "Mineola", which diverged from the lower level of the BMT City Hall station, used the old Beach Pneumatic Subway tunnel, went north up the actually completed (in 1975, but never made public!) Second-Ave.-Subway to 42nd St. which then turned west to GCT? :)
August Belmont's Mineola was stored on a spur track in the basement of the Belmont Hotel on 42nd St. This spur track tied into, I believe, the southbound local track of the original IRT mainline, now part of the 42nd St. shuttle. From there, Belmont and his entourage would cruise (running express, of course) on down Park Ave. past Union Square, past Brooklyn Bridge, to Brooklyn via the Joralemon St. tunnel, to a connection at Atlantic Ave. with the LIRR and onto Belmont Park.
As for Beach's Pneumatic Subway, it was abandoned and forgotten when workmen building the BMT Broadway line broke into it in 1912 or thereabouts. That line was only 312 feet long, anyway, and ran for about one block.
P. S. As for a Broadway train ending up at Grand Central, it's quite feasible: run a #1 or #9 around the loop at South Ferry and switch it over to the Lexington Ave. (inner loop) track just past the station.
Marty
Nice article, but it raises one or two questions.
Merging services at junctions is always a nightmare, although grade separated junctions make matters much more smooth. The NYS must be pretty nightmarish in this respect because of its intricate network of services, and I can see that the 7 has an unfair advantage. However, looking at my subway map, it appears that the L also has this advantage, in fact more so because there are no expresses to worry about. So, is this line also in the top league of reliability? If not, why not?
Although it's isolated like the 7, the L train has a couple of disadvantages that limit its "quality ratings." Inadequate ventilation in the East River tunnel limits passage to one train at a time regardless of direction. This obviously slows things up considerably, in particular at rush hour. In addition, the R40 and R42 cars used on the L have been rather unreliable.
In a sense the F should be the perfect line, too. Southbound, it has one merge at Union Turnpike with the E, and a merge in Brooklyn at Bergen St. with the G. Northbound it's just Smith-9 and 5th Avenue. Otherwise it's a pretty straight shot. Similarly with the number 6. But just sharing platforms with other trains makes for trouble in being on-time or comfortable.
It might be also that there are only 3 stops in Manhattan on the 7, so the big crowds get on and off only at those 3 stops (and Qb. Plaza, and 74-Bway, too). But then the G would be the best in the world: no stops in Manhattan (I know -- "Don't get me started about THAT").
Who knows? Maybe the NYTimes could do a survey with all those people featured in Sunday Style at those parties... They could choose the best subway line easily ;-)
My wish would be for the featured wedding of the week to have been held in a subway station or the Transit Museum or something like that. Now that would be interesting... Maybe I can convince one of daughters to do that...hmmm.....
The same occurs in the morning and evening rush hours when customers constantly ask me where the limited bus is. I tell them unless your going all the way to the end of the line there is not much of a difference in minutes in getting to your destination.
I'd say the L is at a disadvantage with only one track in each direction as opposed to the #7 with the potential of 2 in each direction. If a train is held up on the 7, others could be routed around it; on the L, there's no where for them to go.
--Mark
I'm trying to determine how many subway tunnel & bridges there are. I believe there are 16 separate subway connections using tunnels or bridges between Manhattan & the outer boroughs (Queens, Brooklyn, & the Bronx) ( Sorry Staten Island :) )
1/9 Broadway bridge
B/D tunnel to the Bronx
2 tunnel to the Bronx
4/5/6 tunnel to the Bronx
S 63 ST tunnel to Queens
N/R 60 ST tunnel to Queens
E/F 53 ST tunnel to Queens
7 42 St tunnel to Queens
L tunnel to Brooklyn
J/Z/M Willy B to Brooklyn
F tunnel to Brooklyn
B/D/Q Manhattan Bridge to Brooklyn
A/C tunnel to Brooklyn
2/3 tunnel to Brooklyn
M/N/R tunnel to Brooklyn
4/5 tunnel to Brooklyn
Does this sound right ? Do any of these tunnels have names or other designations.
Thanks.
I guess PATH and New Jersey gets no respect from you.
F tunnel to Brooklyn=Rutgers St Tunnel
B/D/Q Manhattan Bridge to Brooklyn
A/C tunnel to Brooklyn =Cranberry St Tunnel
2/3 tunnel to Brooklyn=Clark St Tunnel -
M/N/R tunnel to Brooklyn =Montague St Tunnel
4/5 tunnel to Brooklyn=Joralemon St Tunnel
I think the L Tunnel is the 14th St Tunnel
Whether these are "official" like the "Brooklyn/Battery" and "Queens/Midtown" I dont know. Since they are not used by autos you don't see those round traffic signs (do I have to apoligize? do this signs still exist?)
The 7 train's tunnel to Queens is known as the Steinway tunnel.
According to that "Time Out NY" article, the 7 train goes under the
East River in what's known as the Steinway Tunnel. (Which was
financed by...that's right...Mr. William Steinway & originally
inteded for trolley service, which never happened.)
Trolleys did run in the Steinway tunnels, using overhead third rail, before the Flushing line was extended into Manhattan.
Last Saturday I was riding the R to 95th. After leaving 59th I saw daylight(enough that it was not a hole in the tunnel.)
Is there a short bridge on this line or an open cut section. You have to be looking at the right time to see this stretch of daylight.
I checked Brakeman's track maps and it is not shown there either.
the lines that cross that section are the old lirr freight lines that went from the bklyn army term 56st and 1ave along an old LIRR branch past the sea beach N line thru blklyn to queens and LI this line is abandoned
The subway structure, which is over the old LIRR open cut that went not only to the Brooklyn Army Terminal but also to the car floats, is wider than two tracks--I believe it's wide enough for four tracks. There's now an apartment complex to the west of the subway tracks, with an open area that looks like a playground at approximately the subway level. When I was growing up in Bay Ridge in the 1950s, it was a great treat to walk or bike to the cut and watch the squat New Haven box cabs with their huge pantographs moving the freight cars around. You could get a good view from any of the cross streets, from some of the parallel streets, and from the Sea Beach where it crossed over the LIRR tracks. I think the Bay Ridge Branch was actually leased as part of the New York Connecting Railroad; I don't ever recall seeing an LIRR locomotive there (and there was no third rail). The overhead was dangerous, though; we had lots of warnings in the neighborhood to be careful because of all the kids who had been electrocuted.
There are two traditional explanations for the wider structure on the subway. One is that the BMT Staten Island line would have connected into Fourth Avenue at this point. The other is that the Fourth Avenue in one plan was supposed to have four tracks and that 86th Street station is just half of the station that was supposed to be built there eventually.
The Staten Island route connection makes a lot more sense and at least made it to maps; there were also some borings on the Staten Island side where the bridge tower is now.
Ed Alfonsin/SUNY at Potsdam
Terribly sorry, I should have made my request more clear. I wanted info only on NYC subway, not LIRR, MetroNorth, PATH or anyone else.
Thanks.
There is the Bridge on the 7 just East of Shea Stadium/Willets Point. There is also the bridge over ther Gowanus Canal on the F, near SMith and 9th Station.(I do not know the names of these bridges)
On Hagstrom's subway maps, the Cranberry St. tunnel was referred to as the Fulton St. tunnel.
Also - the G line tunnel under Newtown Creek between Long Island City and Greenpoint.
Also - the #6 elevated line bridge over the Bronx River after the line emerges from the tunnel at Hunts Point Ave.
Also - in Astoria you have the opposite situation - the N line Ditmars Blvd. station is right under the Amtrak NE Corridor viaduct near the Hell Gate Bridge.
Question, does the #6 line share Harlem river crossing with the #4/5 line or does the #6 line have it's own tunnel?
There is also a bridge on the #6 line were it crosses the Bronx River.
Southbound the bridge is between Elder Ave station & Whitlock Station.
The bridge is known as Whitlock Bridge.
According to Peter's excellent track map book, the 6 leaves the Lex mainline behind just SOuth of 138th,and then it runs under 138. Based on the book, I'd say it uses the same tunnel as the 4 and 5
I checked the track maps also and concur with your findings. It's just that I have worked both lines many times and it never occured to me that they use the same tunnel to cross the Harlem River.
Thanks
(Worked both lines)
How wide are the tunnels? Could you fit an IND train through there, as you can on the Lexington Avenue Line, or is it narrow like the other IRT tunnels?
(Worked both lines) as a subway Conductor.
As to your question, I am no expert, but I think I read here that any subway tunnels built after a certain date were built to IND/BMT standards. These tunnels look big (my expert - techincal evaluation) not at all like the Joralemon St or Clark St tunnels to Brooklyn, were you would swear the train is about to hit the wall.
I know the upper part of Lexington Ave line was built some time after the original Subway, so it is very possible this tunnel is built to IND/BMT standards.
Would one of our experts please read this thread and help us with this question.
Thank You
Yup, the dual contracts tunnels are wide enough and the curves gentle enough to handle IND-width trains. The platforms in stations could be cut back. I was on the Curios of the East Side IRT where this was pointed out at the 86th St station. Of course, both of the IRT dual contracts lines are connected to IRT Day One tracks and tunnels which basically makes the point moot.
(Point of tunnel width is moot). Not that moot. The 1960s 2nd Avenue subway plan connected to the Pelham Line and the Dyre Avenue Line in the Bronx. This way every Bronx train could get Downtown faster.
The MTA has an unfunded plan to run the 2nd Avenue subway north from the 63rd St connection to the Broadway Express, then hook over to 125th and Lex. But if IND trains can get through the Lexington tubes, they could build a turnaround for the Lexington Local at 125th, making it a Manhattan only service, and run the Second Avenue subway through the tubes to the Bronx. That is a much more interesting fantasy.
Seriously! What are the procedures for starting up and driving
your average subway car? From the walk-around to pressurizing the
brakes to what each control handle specifially does.
First of all, you don't drive a train. You OPERATE it. But rather than reading about it, would you like to experience it?
At the Seashore Trolley Museum, we have a program called "Be a Motorman." Now before you get your hopes up, we can't offer the R4/R7 or IRT Hi-V. However, we can offer you the opportunity to operate a vintage trolley (streetcar), perhaps even Third Avenue Railway System #631. Yes, they operate on 600 volts (overhead wire), and most have a manual controller and air brakes.
The cost is $30 (a bargain!), and we appreciate advance appointments. See the Seashore Home Page for contact information.
I second Todd's message.
Even within a single system like NYCT, the operating procedures for different types of equipment varies considerably. An example is that R-46 cars use a single control handle for power and brake while most others use seperate handles. And those pre WW-II cars Todd referred to have a totally different brake from newer cars.
If you really want to learn the ropes of operating subway cars, apply for the job - I'm sure their course is excellent!
I guess that, in order to run the R-4/R-7 duo or IRT 3352 at Seashore, you'd have to become a member. Believe me, if I were still back east, you'd find me at Shoreline, Warehouse Point, or Seashore on a regular basis.
There are differences in operating Hi-V and Lo-V equipment, as Todd can attest to. With Hi-Vs such as 3352, you had to peg the controller up one notch at a time as the train gathered speed. If you pegged it up too quickly, you ran the risk of burning out the motors. On top of that, you had 600 volts going through the controller, which could result in electrocution if something went wrong. With Lo-Vs (everything in New York built after 1915), you can put the controller in multiple (or parallel) from a dead stop and the train will automatically sequence through the various switch combinationa as it accelerates. You might pop a breaker, but at least there's less risk of motor burnout. Also, because Lo-Vs employ a 32-volt battery circuit for the controller, there's no danger of electrocution .
In all instances, there is a deadman's feature which must be nullified in order for the train to run. On prewar IRT cars, this feature was a silver dollar-sized button (am I right, Todd?) in the middle of the controller handle which had to be depressed. Except for the R-44s and R-46s, all R-series cars (I don't know about the R-110As and R-110Bs) have controllers which normally jut up at a 45-degree angle. Depressing the controller nullifies the deadman's feature. Originally, the R-44s and R-46s had a sliding, T-handle combination controller and brake handle which moved forwards and backwards. The deadman's feature was the T portion of the handle; to nullify it, the operator would twist the T so that it would be at a right angle to the slot in which the controller traveled back and forth (correct me if I'm wrong). After they were rebuilt, the R-44s and R-46s
were fitted with rotary combination controller and brake handles.
As for the term "operator", IMHO, that's become the politically correct term to use, since women run trains these days, too.
Well, I won't speak for Todd, but I am sure he will echo some of my responses and concerns when he does respond.
Yes, being a member at Seashore(and a regular operator/volunteer) would be an important element to having an opportunity to run the 800/1440 combo or 3352, but there is MUCH more involved than that. They are both EXTREMELY expensive to move, and they are in need of significant restoration(donations anyone??) before we could even dream about putting passengers in them. 800/1440 has made occasional members' trips, but as I write this, the roof of 800 is being repainted .
I can't speak in-depth about the prewar IRT cars(although it sounds accurate), but all of the info you wrote after that I would agree with.
Just being a member of musuem doesn't garantee you will operate the neat stuff anyway, a lot of polictics is involved and it helps to be a bored member, right Jeff?
Do you mean "BORED" member or "BOARD" member?
Steve B. forgot to mention that every streetcar built in the US until the the late 1910's was "Hi-V. That is every controller form the K-3 through the K-36 has 600 volts passing through it, right under the motorman's hand.
Oh, yeah, almost everybody that runs them tends to ignore the 600 volts under the left hand, and I'll bet that IRT motorman running a train of Hi-V's didn't either.
Until he spilled his coffee. ZZZZZZZZZZZZ
We don't *ignore* the 600V -- it's just part of the experience (read: fun) of operating antique equipment!
I remember reading a series of articles in the early 80's about the sad state of SEPTA trolleys. One brave driver actually wedged a seat cushion under the truck to get his trolley to stop when all brake systems failed on a hill!
There was also the report of the operator's console collapsing onto a driver's lap with sparks flying everywhere. (He was shaken, but ok). Imagine if that had been 600 volts!
Seashore's 3352 does indeed have the "plunger" type deadman feature. It is VERY stiff and takes a lot of downward pressure to keep the brakes from dumping. I assume that back in the car's operating days on the IRT, it required less effort than today due to aging...
The description which you gave of the master controllers on Seashore's IRT 3352 is not quite correct. It is true that one can move from off to the full parallel position one notch at a time, but there is a little-known feature: automatic master controller. The typical three-point automatic controller (switching, series and parallel) relied on interlocks within the switch group which were tied to a current limit relay, all of which lived under the car. If you are not aquainted with a current limit relay, it is essentially a coil of heavy wire in line with the traction current, and depending upon how many amps are flowing through it, opens or leaves closed a circuit which controls other devices. The IRT Gibbs cars had a different arrangement: the current limit relay controlled a magnetic lock inside the master controller. Unlike in the typical master controller, in which the controller handle is rigidly affixed to the shaft of the programmer drum, this design employs a heavy coil spring between the handle and the shaft, so that they did not necessarily move as a unit. The motorman could, as you described, move the handle around one notch at a time. Or, far more likely in practice, put the handle immediately into full parallel position. The motorman would have to use a fair amount of force to hold it there because he would be fighting the tension of that heavy coil spring. The spring was trying to force the main programmer shaft around to catch up, but would be retarded by the action of the current limit relay via the locking magnet until the traction current dropped to a safe level. One just got used to the noises that emanated from the controller as the mechanism worked itself around.
A 1920s IRT rulebook which I have dedicates quite a few rules
to this automatic advance feature of type M control. It was
evident from these rules that there were a whole lot of problems
with it, and the rules specify procedures for flagging a control
stand with bad automatic acceleration. A sign reading "Hand Feed"
was supposed to be hung on the controller.
The current limit relay is wired in series with one of the two
motors. Any ideas what happened if the operating car was dead?
In true MU operation, the condition of any individual car should have no impact on the trainline operation. If the lead motor is dead, as long as you can energize the necessary trainline wires, the other cars will take power normally. However, if there is a grounded circuit, and say the 1 wire (forward) is grounded, none of the cars will take power. Similarly, if the 1 wire is hot and the 2 (reverse) wire gets a false feed from any car, the entire train will be dead. Having said that, in the situation you stated, under normal circumstances, the train will operate normally...
Not related to the thread, but to illistrate what Steve was referring to about MU control, I once road a 5 car Pennsy MP54 set from Wilmington to Suburban Station. The 5 cars were 2 e-1's, an e-2 Motor-Trailer set and a e-6 single motor. The first car was dead, the e-6 had a bad motor, leaving just 3 traction motors for a 5 car train.
The trip was very interesting - the engineer would release the brake and take power. The e-2 set would start first and sit there and grind until the e-6's good motor would finally start. the train would start with a bump as the draft gear compressed and we would gring our way to the next station. If the run was long enough, the train might make it up to 45 MPH before the next stop. Next station, repeat the process.
91 minutes after leaving Wilmington we ground our way into Suburban Station, completely fouling up the service. The noise at 30th st. was impressive, the train grinding in place for a full 5 minutes before moving down the hill to Suburban. Needless to say, the Pennsy didn't try to move that set back up the hill to Powelton Avenue MU yard. They brought in one of the Baldwin switchers to drag the mess up the hill.
A MU trip to remember.
All of what Steve said is correct for SMEE. Moreover, since the
battery is a trainline bus, the lead car doesn't even have to
have working batteries (as long as they are not shorted).
But, this {sub}thread was concerning Type M control as used on the
IRT Hi-V cars. In particular, I was speculating that since
the current limit relay advances the master controller, if the
lead car were dead (drawing no traction current), then the CLR
would allow the master controller to notch right up if the
m/m "wound the clock". I have never had a chance to perform
the experiment on Branford's 3662 to confirm this. Anyone
from Seashore know?
I stand corrected. Hey, I learn something new every day on this website. BTW, I understand you did some work on 3352 some years ago; i. e., removing its center doors and fish belly sills. There's a photo in Under the Sidewalks of New York where you're working at "restoring 3352 to like-new condition" and that it's "starting to resemble its 1904 appearance". I guess that's stretching the truth - Todd mentioned it still needs a lot of work.
P. S. If I'm not mistaken, the Gibbs Hi-Vs originally had Van Dorn couplers which were replaced with the automatic couplers that are still in use today.
Only European's DRIVE their trains/trams/etc. If you really want to be correct, you would say you either "run" or "operate" transit and railway equipment. Being most familiar with the railroad, the statement was always made the when an engineer was promoted he "went to running" the train.
Also, in the Chicago area, references to North Shore motorman who had been promoted, it was said "he ran motor". Those who "operate" the CTA rapid transit trains today are called "operators" vs. motorman, the once normal vernacular.
I’m sure some operating museums have program’s to familiarize interested person’s with the operation of transit equipment. Most railroads and transit authorities WILL NOT allow non-employee’s to occupy the operating compartment (cab) of their trains. However, as most of us know, there are railfan friendly crew’s out there that have been known to allow non-employee’s observe them performing their craft.
Also, there is a book out called (I think) The subways under the sidewalks of NYC. The book twords the end have an artical on how the train was driven because they allowed the author to be in the cab and observe how to operate the train. It went through how the N train operated onrute. It was very interesting. If you get a chance to go to the library try to check it out.
By the way... Do they allow anybody to be in the cab of a train as described as above anymore. If so I would be intrested. Thanks!
According to the operating rules and regulations of the NYCTA only the operating motorman is allowed in the cab. If a new motorman is being instructed the training operator is allowed other than that only other personnel allowed in a cab is a train service supervisor line superintendent, general superintendent.
oh. The book in which the author was allowed to observe the operation of the train in the cab was an R-32. When the book was published the R-44s just came out. 70's?
Thanks
You're referring to the original 1979 edition of Under the Sidewalks of New York, which has an epilogue describing a ride on the Sea Beach line on a train of R-32s. Brian Cudahy made arrangements to ride with the motorman. This was back when the both sets of tracks on the Manhattan Bridge were in use, and the N still ran express in Manhattan at all times and terminated at 57th St. Cudahy points out that although the train carried the designation "N/Broadway Express", it was still referred to as the Sea Beach Express.
yeah, thats the one. Great book. Its to bad they don't let anyone do that anymore.
Could it maybe be done through an intern to see if I would like it?
Are there any interm programs running through the MTA?
Thanks
Tom
Why has no transfer point ever been established between the "L" at Livonia Av and the "3" at Junius St? I do recall an extra-fare connection between them (i.e. without exiting to the street) ca. 1960.
Bob Sklar
For starters they were operated by competing companies which made free transfers counterproductive. Also they are very near the ends of their respective lines, and therefore not likely to generate much traffic. Lastly, they are both local operations, transferring wouldn't get you to Manhattan much faster.
For people using the unlimited-use MetroCards once they come out next month, the lack of a free transfer at this and many other places will be irrelevant.
I bet a lot of people switch at Livonia and Junius when the unlimited cards come out. I can imagine many people needing to go from Canarsie to the IRT parts of Brooklyn and Manhattan and don't want to inch their way through Ridgewood first. I can also imagine people on the IRT wanting to get to Jamaica without going through Manhattan. I personally have always wondered why there is not a free connection at this point. There is a walkway between the two stations that always has people on it. If they could connect the 8th and 7th Avenue lines at Times Square, they can do it here, too.
Has anyone tried the following:
Get on the B42 bus from Canarsie (using Metrocard).
At Rockaway Parkway get on the "L" train (in-station transfer, no swipe required).
At Livonia Ave., get off, walk to the IRT station, and swipe your Metrocard to enter.
Since the first swipe of the card was on a bus (the B42), you should get a "XFER OK" message at the Junius St. turnstiles, since it will be recorded as a "bus to subway" transfer. Or will it? Is there perhaps special programming currently in place to prevent that?
Hey, this is a good question. Even if you lived next to the Rockaway Pky. station, it would pay to walk a block or two toward Rockaway Pier, to board the B42.
What about this question? Suppose you needed to buy something around Union Square and you lived in Canarsie. You board the B42, make a free transfer (without your MetroCard) from bus to subway inside the Rockaway Pky. station, travel into Manhattan and exit at Union Square. You make your purchase and return to the Union Square station within the two hours that you boarded the bus.
Will you get the roundtrip back to Canarsie for free? After all, you first got on the bus 2 hours ago, and your MetroCard has not been swiped till now thru a subway turnstile.
Reggie
Alright, I thought I'd be cute and post a fairly innocent message
calling motorpersons "drivers" and I didn't specify the specific
train to operate. (Sheesh...we call 727 pilots "727 drivers"). So...
since I don't have time to go to motorman's school or get up to
Kennebunkport for a day (eventually I'll fly myself up, thanks Todd,
sounds like a very worthwhile $30) what is involved in operating a
normal R68A car on the D line? Can't get more specific than that!
:)
The basic mechanism of moving any of NYC Transits trains is relatively easy.
First, insert your reverser key and throw it to the foward position.
Second, Insert your brake handle and place it in the Full service position. (R-44/46, move the master controller handle to the Full Service Position)
Third. Engage the dead man's feature by depressing the master controller handle.
Forth, release the brakes.
Fifith, Advance the master controller handle to a power position and the train moves.
Of course I left out a few basics like be sure you have indication, walk around your train (in yards), make sure all the hand brakes are released, and make sure the CCO circuit breaker is on. That's how you physically move a train but there's much more to it.
The Ridgewood times has an article about community opposition to the reopening of the abandoned LIRR tracks through Rego Park. The idea was to try to improve the economic condition of the Rockaways with "faster service to Manhattan". And of course, was also mentioned the idea of a rail link to JFK. The usual NIMBY complaints--property values, rumbling of trains, and children who use the tracks as a shortcut, and would get hurt crossing them if it were reativated. But isn't it dangerous now with all the brush and trash. Looks pretty creepy. And what about all the bugs it must generate. Seems like it would be better opened.
In NYC, a philanthropist walking around handing out $1,000 in hundred dollar bills would generate "community opposition." And these neighborhood newspapers would devote a headline and ten paragraphs to the complaints of the COWPs (Cranky Old White People), and a couple of sentences to all the people happy to get the money. Its infuriating.
Please, no racial remarks. Just because white people are the majority in many parts of the country is no excuse to make so-called "humorous" comments. I will refrain from driving my point home by offering counter-examples of offensive humorous comments about other groups.
And someday you will be old too and and may want to be able to have things your way too, sometimes. Remember that every 60-year has been 25, but no 25-year old has ever been 60.
Thanks for sharing. Should be noted that while the tracks and right of way were once the LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, since 1952 NY Citry has owned the r.o.w. While LIRR operation to Ozone Park operated until as recently as 1962, NY City already owned the line from White Pot Junction eastward (geographically southward).
This whole thing is generating a split amongst Queens residents and will get our Boro Pres. Claire Schulman in a lot of hot water no matter what plan she agrees with. Direct rail service to Kennedy is needed, everyone agrees, "As long as it doesn't run thru my neighborhood". Personally, I would like to see the Rockaway Branch restored. A turnout from Manhattan to Kennedy would be no problem, but coming back from Kennedy a fly-over must be built to hook up with the main line which could be a problem because a lot of space will be needed to allow this high speed line to have a good short running time from Penn Station. New technology with noise abatement, even possibly putting a roof over the right-of way can be done so the train haters won't see them. How can somebody peek into your room on a train going over 50 M.P.H.? A one seat ride from Manhattan must be accomplished( not Jamaica), otherwise all money will be wasted. Remember: the taxi & limo lobby is very strong in this town.
What about the "Whitepot Underjump" - it is still there isn't it?
[What about the "Whiteport Underjump" - is it still there?]
Yes, but the rails are gone and the ROW is all overgrown.
One of the problems with re-activating the Rockaway ROW is the impossibility, due to union and regulatory issues, of mixing the LIRR and NYCTA. I have the following suggestion.
1. Eliminate the A to Lefferts. Run busses on Liberty and Rockaway up a ramp to a new superstation in the vicinity of Cross Bay Bld and Liberty, near the split off to the A. Run the buses up ramps to an easy bus/subway transfer.
2. Reactivate the northern portion of the Rockaway Branch, but have service extended only as far as Aquaduct -- which would be used for park and ride -- on separate tracks from the subway.
3. Keep the subway to the Rockaways. The LIRR wouldn't be much faster as far as Liberty anyway. It's still the same tracks. Impose an extra fare (like the express buses) to transfer to the LIRR and Cross Bay and Liberty. A turnstile could be installed between platforms. A quick change across the platform would make it almost as good as direct LIRR service to the Rockaways.
4. Run the JFK service to the superstation at Cross Bay and Liberty. Riders would have a choice of the LIRR direct to Midtown, or the subway to downtown Brooklyn and Lower Manhattan.
Geez you'ld think this was 1898! 1. The rational thing is indeed to reactivate the LIRR to Howard Beach. this was once four tracks. so duh, two each NYCT, LIRR if necessary a pretty fence to satisfy FRA & TWU. 2. As to the station I believe a design could be done t like PATH @ Newark inbound which is Roll On Roll Off not only ADA compliant but damned convenient! 3. Lefferts or not is not part of this problem and simply clouds the issue. 4. Major deficit--too efficient a design to allow for necessary juice, or empire building.
Nice posts, but the government is already stuck in cement, i.e. going up the Van Wyck to get to Jamaica.
So what about using this ROW for IND to go North ? Once U get to the LIRR main line Queens Blvd isn't that far away, or go West for a while on the avail ROW (unused outside trackbed, one ROW each side of main). U could even get to Queens Plaza by adding tracks at #7 as it crosses the Sunnyside yard. Then .... switch to N & go to La Guardia !!!
OR go for 63rd St tunnel instead Queens Plaza ???
Mr t__:^)
The whole fantasy has the light rail to Jamaica ramped down into the 179th St IND, shot out through the Jamaica Yard, running elevated along the border of Flushing Park, going under and stopping in Downtown Flushing, running elevated along the Grand Central Parkway to LaGuardia, then hooking up to the Astoria line at the Con Edison Plant, running down the Astoria Line and into the 60th St tunnel, going through a new connection from the lower level of City Hall station to the Cranberry tunnel, running out the Fulton St line and ramping up to the light rail at Howard Beach for a loop.
Not bloody well likely. Frankly, I'd be thrilled just to ge the N to LaGuardia. I'm flying out to visit family members Thursday moring, and if the N was connected I could take the F to Herald Square, switch to the N, and get to LaGuardia in 70 minutes guaranteed. As it is, I might have a shorter car service ride, but the potential for doom is there. Miss a plan with four family members and non-refundable tickets, and you are toast. Train to train to slow bus? Forget it.
If the trains to Lefferts Blvd aren't carrying enough passengers, how about this:
1) Run the C to Lefferts, and run the remaining A trains to the Rockaways. Plus, have the A run express from Grant Av to Rockaway Blvd in one direction during rush hours. This should be easy since
there is a center track at 3 of the 4 stations.
2) Keep the Lefferts A service the way it is, but still have the Rockaway A trains go express.
In addition, you can have the A skip Nostrand Ave. and possibly even Utica Av for a straight express run and to have people who get on the C stay on it, similar to what was planned when the line under Central Park West was built. Also lengthen the C to 10 cars (currently I think it's 8 during rush hours) and adding a couple of trains. (I'm assuming here that the C does not get as many people per train coming into Manhattan as the A.).
Express from Grant to Rockaway Blvd. is a no go. The middle track you see leaving Grant Ave. going up onto the structure is a yard lead, not part of the main line. Even if it were main line, skipping 2 stations will simply inconvenience those people in order to save 1 minute running time for others. The crossover is between Hudson & Boyd stations, all trains should stop at Rockaway Blvd. since that is a transfer point. Skipping Nostrand & Utica: again the train has to cover the mileage, the train by rule would have to reduce speed to 15 MPH leaving the stations & again 1 minute running time would be saved to the inconvenience of those passengers who could no longer get off. Because of increasing ridership, I would like to see 24/7 C service all local to Lefferts, and all A's 24/7 express to Far Rock. & Rock. Park (alternate trains, eliminate the OPTO shuttle). For those who say the Lefferts branch doesn't carry enough people: how many people do you expect on that train since Lefferts Blvd. is only 3 stations away from Rockaway Blvd. For those Lefferts branch passengers who will complain about an all local service: at least you and your fellow passengers won't have to deal with double headways anymore.
I HAVE TO AMMEND ONE THING: at times when the headway is more than 12 minutes leaving 207 St.: (late PM, midnites, early AM) send all A trains to Far Rock. since the double headway will be too long for alternate service. Only during those limited times, the H shuttle would be needed from Broad Channel to Rockaway Park.
Re: crossover located between Hudson and Boyd.
1) Move the crossover closer to Grant Av, or
2) simply skip Hudson AND Grant. Remember, I proposed skipping 4 stops, which in this case means simply means pushing the merge farther down the line, instead of at Rockaway Blvd. I can't see Rockaway Blvd as being a major transfer stop during rush hours because as most of the riders are going to Manhattan or downtown Brooklyn why would you transfer at Rockaway Blvd? Additionally, if skipping by the platform at Grant is a problem, you could link a single track between the opposite yard leads, but that would probably be too expensive.
Re: skipping Nostrand and Utica
This is not only to save a couple of minutes. From what I've heard (I haven't witnessed this first hand) the A trains from Bklyn are PACKED. If so many people are riding the Fulton St trains why are the C trains running with 8 car trains? A line's capacity is measured by the number of TRAINS per hour not cars. Ergo, it's inefficient to run 8 car trains along a corridor clearly designed to handle 10. Also, if the riders along Fulton Street are anything like the riders everywhere else in NY, they will probably try to grab an express any chance they get, instead of spending a couple of extra minutes staying on the local. By eliminating Nostrand and Utica as express stops during rush hours this discourages riders who get on along Fulton St from trying to transfer from the local to the express, even though they are going to the exact same destinations. This is why Central Park West has a huge stretch of local stops, to prevent this exact same phenomenon.
I can attest to the packed As and empty Cs. At Jay St, where I transfer to the F, I often have to wait to let one or two A trains go by, before getting on a half-empty C. Not only are C trains shorter, but they run two A trains for every one C train. So while those at Utica and Nostrand benefit from the express service, those on other local stops face longer headways.
I guess Utica was supposed to be a major transfer point to a North-South line in the IND second system, but that isn't going to happen. I agree that its better to run more, longer Cs, and fewer As, while eliminating the express stops at Nostrand and Utica. The shorter headways would balance the lost time due to taking the local.
I still believe that with free transfers, Ozone Park riders would be better off without the 3 stop line to Lefferts, where most have to take a bus anyway to a very infrequent train. Instead, more buses should run to Cross Bay Blvd, where every A train would be rolling through through -- and then making only six more stops to Jay St. The TA could use some of the money it saves by closing the 3 stations to ramp buses on Liberty Ave, Rockaway Blvd, and Cross Bay up to a platform-level bus terminal for a quick and easy change.
Actually, it will be better to run more A trains; two A trains per one C. One going to Far Rockaway, another to Lefferts Blvd. At the Broadway Nassau station, I have to wait twice as long for an A to Lefferts Blvd train than a C train. The C's run back to back with the two A train and they shouldn't. Also, they should run all of them frequently. Many times, if a Far Rockaway train comes, and then a C, I get on the C train and ride it to Euclid Avenue. By the time I get to the terminal, the A train to Lefferts Blvd is coming into the station.
Midday Schedule
C - 12
A - 7
I'm all for 24/7 express service on the Fulton Street line, as I
have mentioned on other occasions. Maybe a better solution would
be a variant of this suggestion:
Run the "C" 24/7 to Rockaway Park, and retain the alternate Lefferts
and Far Rockaway "A" service. This would effectively eliminate the
"H" shuttle.
No matter what sort of service is provided to the outer branches,
the "A" should be a full-time express, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
It is one of the system's "flagship" lines.
Wayne
I second Wayne with this suggestion: Run the A to Far Rock (With the usual added Rock Park during Rush). Run the C to Lefferts as Local fulltime except overnight when the Lefferts shuttle would run from Euclid. I have seen overnight A trains-they are mainly empty in manhattan. In Manhattan run the A local North of 59 and express from 59 to Brooklyn (When the E runs-which is all times unless trackwork). In Brooklyn the A would run local to Rockaway. (Lefferts shuttle from Euclid.)
**the abover is personal opinion and not that of MTA or NYCT***
For the life of me, I never could figure out why IND local trains (C today; AA, BB, and CC in the past) were never longer than 8 cars when stations were 660 feet long. What makes it so puzzling is that the IND was designed to induce local riders to stay on their trains to their final destination. With that kind of logic, it would make sense to run 10-car (60-foot) local trains, if not all day, at least during rush hour.
I see one other advantage in running the C to Lefferts Blvd. and all A trains to the Rockaways: shorter headways on the Rockaway line. Right now, since A trains alternate between Lefferts and Mott Ave, you have to wait twice as long for an A train beyond 88th St.
The C train should terminate at Euclid Avenue (B) and Lefferts Blvd everyday from 6 AM - 9PM. On the other hand, A service should terminate at Far Rockaway (Q). 24 hour shuttle service from Far Rockaway (Q) to Far Rockaway Park (Q). When they open up the via 63rd Street connection for 6th Avenue, service (H) should be provided to the Rockaway Park area during rush hours (switch from 6 Avenue from West 4th Street or Spring Street on Local track). This will provide improve service in the lower Manhattan (especially Broadway Nassau/Fulton Street), via Fulton Street Brooklyn and Rockaway Queens.
There appears to be a "fly-under" i.e. an underpass-type
connection where the old Atlantic branch meets the current LIRR,
approx. at 65 Road and Austin Street. I've seen it many times on
my travels in and out of NYC, but have no idea whether it is
structurally sound. This would be the northbound Atlantic branch
track connection to the outer (local) LIRR tracks.
As for obstacles in the way (say, a hundred thousand or so mature
trees), there is the matter of that apartment building at Union
Turnpike and Woodhaven Blvd., any new rail line would have to
really go "deep" in order to avoid its foundations.
Also: was there ever a station at Metropolitan Avenue?
How about another one at Park Lane South? Historical info again.
Wayne
(1) The "fly-under" you refer to is the connection between the old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch (not the Atlantic Branch) and the Main Line. It was called White Pot Junction. Whether it is structurally sound is something civil engineers can determine. It certainly is still there, overgrown with wild trees and brush.
The Atlantic Branch is today's route from Flatbush Ave., through Jamaica, Locust Manor, and Rosedale as far as Valley Stream.
(2) There was a station at Metropolitan Ave. called Parkside. Next stop was where Jamacia Ave. intersects the r.o.,w., and it was called Brooklyn Manor. This is close to Park Lane South. Next stop was Woodhaven Junction, atop the Atlantic Avenue tunnel and another statiion that today sits unused.
I have some recent pictures of the Rockaway branch on my LIRR website.
http://www.pipeline.com/~robertwa/rockpics.html
This NIMBY crap is getting ridiculous. The railroad must pass near hundreds of houses - has their property values been declining? I might understand if it was the subway, but the RR is quieter and less frequent, as well as less likely to carry undesirables (Colin Ferguson aside). I have to agree with you here - an abandoned, trash-strewn ROW is at least as dangerous. It can breed vermin, and be more likely to attract vagrants.
You are making a fundamental mistake -- you are applying LOGIC and REASON to the matter. By definition, a NIMBY is using neither and makes their decisions not from the brain but from the worst nightmare scenarios their over-emotional hearts can generate.
Remember that the sub-title of the most popular movie is "Fight the Future." In other words, however bad the present situation is, any change has to be much, much worse. The clarion call of our age, it seems.
The NIMBY problem in NYC is not that people who are, or perceive themselves to be, adversely affected by a change in conditions object, or assert their interests. The problem is a political, media and legal system (sorry John) which allows the interests (not just the fundamental constitutional interests but any interest) of a small minority to stymie the majority.
The people who benefit from physical investment are never heard from in the media. No one ever informs them that their future is being sacrificed to benefit a few people, so they can organize or hold the politicians accountable. The many losers are never informed.
Moreover, here in New York, anyone can file a lawsuit to stop anything. You lose the lawsuit, but only after several years. Try to maintain the agreement of a zillion bureaucracies and funding through several years of delay. A year later when judge finds that yes, the Environmental Impact Statements were complete, all the public meetings were held, the governing body really did have a vote and the majority really was in favor, and the lawsuit had no basis, then you get an appeal. The tactic is delay, the lawsuit as a weapon with the issues a facade. There seems to be no way to stop the nonsense.
We just had a case where local supermarket operators filed a lawsuit and stopped the construction of a new supermarket for a year, after which the judge found the objections had no merit. For a few thousand in legal fees, they probably raised the interest cost of carrying the property by double that amount.
Actually, I more or less agree with you. It does cost a significant amount and take a significant period of time (though I would say more like several months than several years) to get a frivolous or groundless case against you thrown out. As to appeals, I have not practiced in the area of environmental law specifically, but the usual position in appeals is that there are no restrictions on whoever won in trial court. In other words, if someone sues and says your building is a nuisance, and you win in trial court, you can act in all ways like your building is not a nuisance even if the losing party files an appeal. This may be different under the environmental laws, I don't know as it wasn't my area of practice.
As you say, there is little way to stop the nonsense. Anyone can sue, and it would be a violation of the Constitutions of NY and the US to refuse to accept complaints from people, even on the ground that they previously filed complaints dismissed as groundless. The only remedy the government and the courts have (other than throwing out cases) are sanctions, and the frivolousness needed to incur sanctions is more than the frivolousness to get the case thrown out -- a frivolous case is dismissed, but you must know or should know the case is frivolous to be sanctioned. Anyhow, even if sanctions are applied, NIMBYs consider them an expense of war if they are able to pay them, and if they can't pay them, then the old saw about getting blood from turnips applies.
Heavier sanctions might be possible when the same people -- the self-appointed "community activists" -- keep bringing these obstructionist suits. But it's hard to imagine a court imposing heavy sanction against a one-time filer of a frivolous suit unless he made some "smoking gun" explicit statement that the case was brought in bad faith, and that he knew or did not care that the project was in compliance with the environmental laws so long as it was blocked.
(Nothing can be done). There is one way out -- having "as-of-right" planning. Where you have a zoning plan in place that X is allowed to build Y, then X just comes in, gets a building permit, and build. There is nothing to sue on. And, of course, a two year lawsuit challeging the zoning plan itself is to no avail, since there is no one financing a property and going broke while the lawsuit is going on.
The problem is, policically active interests, the trail lawyers, and the consultants have lobbied to make everything a "conditional use" which requires an individual application, approval, EIS, etc which can be challenged in court. When my agency proposed a plan allowing new supermarkets in certain areas (major arterials), these groups blew us away, despite all out support from the Mayor.
And, there is no such thing as as-of-right for a public improvement like a new transit line, or even a modest improvement to an existing transit line. Anything like that can be tied up in court for years, or until "compesation" is paid.
As much as I dislike what the NIMBYs have done, especially in transit terms, in a way I can understand their motivations. Partly it's well-known. For most people, their houses are their largest investments by far, and they'll instinctively oppose anything that has even a remote chance of reducing property values.
Yet there's something else. Neighborhood deterioration is feared because it's almost always an irreversible and probably unstoppable process. Once a neighborhood starts to slip, that's it. Gentrification is a process that exists far more in legend than in reality. NIMBYs are aware of this, even if they don't articulate the fears, and that may buttress their value-related fears.
NIMBYism is an ago old practice. When the Philadelphia & Western (of late known as Route 100 of SEPTA) was building the Norristown extension from Villanova Junction, the "elite" of the Main Line (Haverford, Bryn Mawr, and Radnor to name a few) tried to fight it. Their objection was simply "they didn’t want upstaters" riding through their properties. Does this sound familiar? Some new light rail lines have be opposed on the premise that the line would bring crime to the suburbs. This was in 1912! Just goes to show that human nature hasn’t changed much in the past 80 some years.
As we know, the line was ultimately linked to the LVT line to Allentown at Norristown. The stalling didn’t work, however, there was fierce opposition to the line none-the-less.
Sounds like the 2nd Ave. Subway.
Census data over the past 50 years show that the aveage income in an area doesn't have to go just one way. Gentrification is not a myth at all.
Typically, the affluent move into newer, larger, more modern homes on the edge of urban settlement, leaving older housing to the middle class, which leaves older areas to the working class, which leaves older areas to the poor, which abandons even older areas. In most cities, that is the only dynamic, and aside from (or even including) a few prestige neighborhoods much of the center is being abandoned. This "first wave" is now moving out to neighborhoods on the fringe of the city, and less than pretigious postwar suburbs (ie. the south shore of Long Island, as the housing reaches 40-50 years old. You have houses being subdivided, ethnic change, etc, old people remaining and dying off while their children move away, etc.
But in NYC, there is a "second wave" of rising affluence moving out from Manhattan. Consider that Manhattan was the poorest borough in 1940, but now its per-capita income ($64,000) is the highest of any county in the country. Fairfield, CT is next, way down at $47,000. In 1940, you had Park Avenue, Fifth Avenue, Madison Avenue and Central Park West -- the rest was down at the heels. The Upper East Side tenements started to get replaced by luxury high rises. Then it spread to the Upper West Side. Etc.
The first wave moves in recessions. The second wave moves in booms, like now. Rent regulations slows the second wave, and accelerates the first wave by encouraging owners of rental buildings to take money out rather than maintain the building, but the second wave moves even so. The second wave is now cleaning up a few areas south of 96th St, moving up to Washington Heights, and over to Brooklyn. Areas of Brooklyn close to Manhattan had explosive income gains in the 1980s. Then it hit Windsor Terrace where I live in the past few years. Thank God I bought when I did.
Meanwhile, my wife's relatives -- who moved up by moving out of the type of area where now live to the south shore -- now find their neighborhood "going downhill." It isn't really, but these are the people who fled once before, and if they do it again parts of Nassau will be much poorer (Garden City will still be Garden City, however, just as Fifth Ave was still Fifth Ave). Its amusing to see average rent maps from 1940, with much of now-wealthy Manhattan in the low rent category and much of the Bronx far better off. In NYC at least, areas get richer as well as poorer.
Thanks for the information, it's quite interesting. If I've got this right, it seems that gentrification is alive and well in New York, but largely a myth in most parts of the country - is that a fair characterization?
I don't know as much about many other parts of the country, but I do have some data I've compiled from various places. Certainly San Francisco (which is the equivalent of Manhattan as a separate municipality) is primarly occupied by the affluent. You may have heard about the Sex Shop zoning controversy in NYC. In Boston, a planner told me, they concentrated the sex shops in the Combat Zone. Now that area is gentrifying, and the sex shops are being pushed out to the suburbs (yeah).
For the most part, however, I see decline. Of the 19 U.S. cities which had over 200,000 people in 1900 -- the major pre-auto cities -- only NYC and S.F. have lost less than 10 percent of their people. Most have lost more than one-third, and St. Louis is over 1/2. And as for people working, NYC, Chicago, LA, Boston, Philly, Washington and S.F. were the only cities with over 200,000 people working in their central business district in 1990. The typical "downtown" is around 100 to 120,000 people, all of whom arrive by car. It seems that if you want to live an urban lifestyle and not live in a ghetto, there are only a few choices left. I guess in the next decade Philly will either turn around or sink -- its been losing jobs and people.
Lots of places are trying to create "Sohos." The planning and development literature is full of plans for new downtown neighborhoods. They seem to think that Soho happened because people like living in abandoned factories, not because they want to live in or near Manhattan and can't afford an apartment.
Actually SF has several; areas of ghetto/slum/downttrodden etc., but as housing prices are currently zooming again these areas will liklely be slowly upgraded by pricing out the poor. Where they will go is an entirely other question. Oakland--BTW in many ways somewhat Brooklyn like in its relation to The City (as SF is locally called)--is also very slowly being gentrified here and there. As an aside Larry, And others, may I reccomend, Cities without Suburbs by Rusk, Johns Hopkins, and Edge Cities by Joel Garreau?
Columbus and Cleveland OH, Inianapolis IN and even part of Phila, mostly around Center City, Olde City and Society Hill are now undergowing Gentrification. I am sure other cities are having some sucess Pittsburgh I think, but I am not sure.
I've read those books, and do not agree with them.
The thesis of the Edge City book is that cities, transit, apartments-rowhouse neighborhoods have gradually been left to the poor and then abandoned because Amercians prefer the auto-detached house -- mall suburban lifestyle. I agree that is true of most Amercians, but not all.
I believe the cities were abandoned by the affluent because they were the home of the poor, and the American fiscal system concentrates the burden of the poor on the people who live in the same jusridiction. Since the poor pay less in taxes, and require more services, everyone who lives near them pays higher taxes and accepts inferior services. That's why localities zone out the poor. Had the housing projects been spread through the suburbs, as in the Paris area, things would be different. Lots of people would prefer cities is they didn't have a local income tax (like NYC) and could send their kids to the schools (aside from "gifted" and "magnet" schools you need connections to get into). Much "gentrfication" has been generated by young singles and couples, who leave as their income increases and the kids arrive.
So I agree with Cities Without Suburbs, right? Not really. The thesis of that book is that new western cities are able to expand capture the rich and businesses as they try to escape, eliminating the divide between poor city and affluent suburb. But I see the easy annexation of western cities as a phase -- remember that Greater New York grabbed five counties. Eventually, you run into incorporated, affluent neighborbors who have the political clout to prevent annexation. For example, my parents now live in Tulsa, a western "City Without Suburbs." Guess what -- the new housing is being built, and the better off families are moving to, school districts outside the city borders which have resisted annexation. And Tulsa is experiencing white flight! Houston and LA will find they soon have the same problems.
Besides, regionalization of the tax base doesn't work. Money follows power, not need. You want to tell me that the MTA has been a good deal for the inner city? Its certainly better than the Port Authority, or any money that passes through the Vampire State, but the city would be much better off with all of the TBTA surplus, rather than just 50 percent (orignally 66 percent).
[Lots of people would prefer cities is they didn't have a local income tax (like NYC) and could send their kids to the schools (aside from "gifted" and "magnet" schools you need connections to get into). Much "gentrfication" has been generated by young singles and couples, who leave as their income increases and the kids arrive.]
The new issue of Harper's magazine has an interesting feature article entitled "Going Broke on $100,000 a Year." The author and his wife are Manhattan residents, living in a $900 rent-controlled apartment, but have something like $60,000 in delinquent debt despite a six-figure income. Their main problem is that private schooling for their three children is costing about $36,000 per year, which probably is close to half of their take-home pay. Which brings up the real question - are city public schools *so* bad that people have to go broke sending the rug rats to private school? I suspect not.
My brother works as a manager for one of those "subprime" lenders. He lends lots of money against houses, at 125 percent of home value, to people with six figure incomes who spend it all and run up the credit cards besides. After overleveraging their homes to pay off the credit cards, they run up the credit cards again. Moreover, while bankrupcy used to be the welfare of the wealthy, its been democratized -- no wonder the banks want to get rid of it. When the music stops, its recession city.
The affuent and the middle-classes fled the cities for a number of reasons, but your thesis regarding the tax burdens of the poor makes much sense. The fact is that outside of transient yuppies, prosperous people do not want to live in New York City. You get more house for your money in the suburbs, the trade-off being much higher real-estate taxes. But those taxes buy better schools. Commuter rail lines have always provided more comfortable service, again at a dollar premium. You get what you pay for. It isn't that anyone 'hates' the cities, they choose to pay for a better quality of life. I live in one of the quietest, safest neighborhoods in NYC on Staten Island. But even many of my neighbors now want to move to NJ for a variety of reasons. And a lot my neighbors with school-age kids are even wary of the 'good' schools on Staten Island. The fact that many south-shore SI residents have a two-hour commute into midtown makes the NJ suburbs hard to overlook. If you are going to spend that much time commuting, you might as well live in a 'real' suburb. Working people will always move away from the poor when the poor become an unreasonable financial burden, this is cold but true,
Don't move out now, Dan. The "first wave" of areas becomming poorer as older housing is passed down and subdivided is washing over the city's border into the close-in suburbs. These days, the politicians talk about "urban problems" the use the phrase "cities and inner suburbs." Twenty years ago, they used the phrase "inner cities" ie. excluding Staten Island and other post-war areas.
Not that the Great Necks and Broxvilles of the world have anything to fear, but 50 year old 1,200 s.f. tract houses will go one of two ways. Either they will be passed down to the poor and (illegally) subdivied as their price falls. Or they will be snapped up by the better off as their price falls, torn down, and replaced with newer, bigger houses. It all depends on the perceived value of the neighborhood. You read more and more about both things happening. And I'll bet the suburbs where you can walk to a real main street and commuter rail stop do much better in the end.
Meanwhile, the "second wave" of increased interest in city living among people with choices continues to push out of Manhattan. The fact that college graduates started moving to Williamsburg? in the teeth of a recession says it all. New York has a problem for families beyond the schools -- only 30 percent of the housing units have three of more bedrooms, compared with 60 percent nationwide. That's why, with all the baby boomers in the child raising years -- you pay through the nose for a family unit in a family neighborhood. Many boomers who lived in the city pre-kids moved out. The city's economy has been fighting a demographic headwind.
But the baby bust hit bottom in 1976, which means the lowest number of native born children left college this year. From here on in, more and more young people -- who are attracted to the city -- will be leaving college each year, as the children of the baby boomers reach maturity. And I'll bet their parents come back when the kids are gone, especially give the new tax law which will allow them to sell their suburban house, and buy both a city apartment and a vacation/retirement home, without paying taxes.
Yes, its many of the suburbs (along with newer, post-War cities) which face the downward spiral of more poor/smaller tax base/worse services/lower housing prices/more poor over the next 50 years. And I'll be cheering them on all the way down.
Interesting comments, but I have a couple of observations. In Long Island at least, the lower-income, run down areas are not necessarily in the inner ring. Nassau and Suffolk have what you might call isolated ghettos that may be well beyond the ring. Examples would include North Amityville, Roosevelt, Central Islip, Mastic Beach, Wyandanch, and many others. What makes it even stranger is that at least some of these areas are adjacent to much nicer places. Something is going on that explains the growth of poverty on Long Island - and poverty definitely is growing, despite better overall economic conditions - but it isn't the spread of the poor in a wave beyond the city limits. Note that similar phemonena may be true in New Jersey and Westchester as well, but I'm not as familiar with those areas.
You also noted that the postwar suburbs with smaller tract houses are likely to go one of two ways, either becoming slums or having the housing stock replaced with large, expensive houses. That may be true in general, but the quintessential postwar tract-house suburb, Levittown, is doing neither. It remains a pleasant area even though the houses haven't grown (most of them have been modified in various ways, but their overall sizes don't seem to have changed much).
At least in my neighborhood (New Dorp - Oakwood) the 50+ year old houses are being bought up by locals or ex-Brooklynites and renovated. Many of the older homes in my area were built in the 1920's building boom, and are generally within walking distance of the SIR stations. It really depends on the area. In my old Brooklyn neighborhood (Kensington) nobody wanted the 50+ year old two-family plain frame houses (ours was built in 1905). It took us over a year to sell it. But adjacent Ditmas Park (straddles Brighton line) and it's beautiful old post-Victorians will always be in demand. By the way, my old house was 1 block from the 'F' train, so much for proximity to transit being a major selling point!
Funny you should mention Kensington. Those in my (less than grabby) economic strata who did not buy in 1994 can no longer afford houses Windsor Terrace, where I live. So much for housing appreciation being good -- unless we sell, the only effect is our friends move away. Anyway, the big question is do you move to Kensington or move away entirely, perhaps to the suburbs?
Friends of ours who have bought in the last couple of years have moved to the portion of Windsor Terrace between the Prospect Expressway and cemetary, near the Fort Hamilton Parkway station. If my "two waves" theory is correct, and it sure fits the available data, then Kensington is next in line. But the shortage of 3 bedroom housing units trumps the two wave theory. There's just not enough of them.
We just want to live where we live for the next 50 years, not speculate in real estate. But if we wanted to speculate, we'd sell our house in Windsor Terrace at a ridiculous price and buy one in Kensington (or Sunset Park) to catch the next wave. It would would be two more stops on the F train.
Yes I still think good transit is a plus, no matter what those quoted in Whitestone believe. The problem is, you get more than a few miles out and the trip is just too long. For example, if the Manhattan Bridge were truly fixed or replaced, and the TA could run the R express from 36th plus additional locals for the 36th to Pacific stations, I believe Bay Ridge would become attractive to many more people. The houses are expensive anyway, but fixed up stations and faster service would do wonders for the apartment buildings.
I heard variations on the 'next wave' back in 1990 when we moved to SI. I think that Kensington doesn't have enough interesting housing to attract the next wave, too many old frame houses. Very few of the houses have driveways or garages. The neighborhood around 18th Avenue & Ocean Pkway is very run down and sadly unattractive. I think that the nearby 'F' train only speeded up the decline of the area. I didn't see too many upwardly-mobile types getting off at my station.
Larry - is the $64K income an average or median for manhattan? I strongly suspect its the former. If so, whats the latter?
Also, there are other areas. Consider Lincoln Park in Chicago. Or go back further, and consider Georgetown in DC or Beacon Hill in Boston.
Believe it or not, its not boring to me.
The $64,000 is 1996 per capita (U.S. Department of Commerce, Bureau of Economic Analysis). They add up administrative date from a wide variety of sources (tax records, welfare payment records), and divide it by the projected population, to get per capita income for each county.
To do a median, you need to rank all the households in order, and the only source that lets you do that is the census of population (every 10 years). In 1989, the median household income in Manhattan was lower than in Staten Island and Queens, but don't let that fool you. Manhattan has the highest share of single people in the country, and one earner has a lower household income than two. On the other hand, the per capita income of young families seems low, since their children bring down the household average.
The way to get a high per capita income is to have lots of rich people. To get a high median household income, you need to have no poor people. In 1989, the highest median household income were the suburbs of Washington -- fewer rich people, but absolutely no poor people.
I think you can apply that logic anywhere. Everybody is suing everybody these days, usually to make a fast buck. As far as driving costs up due to delays, a classic example of this happened in Denver. There was a beltway planned as part of the Interstate Highway System, I-470, which would have encircled Denver in much the same way as other beltways. The southwest portion which would have linked I-70 with I-25 would have cost something like $3.2 million back in the early 70s. Then-governor Dick Lamm, who IMHO was a dork, vowed to "drive a silver spike" through this project, saying it would cause too rapid of a development along that route. This is the same Dick Lamm who raised a few eyebrows when he stated tha elderly have a "duty to die". A scaled-back version of this highway, C-470, was eventually built in sections at a cost of $32 million - ten times the original estimate. The eastern portion of this beltway, E-470, is being built as a tollway with private funding, BTW.
Hey, at least the majority of Colorodans elected Lamm, the person who stalled the project. What is bad is when you go through a whole planning process, the elected representatives approve a project, the vast majority would benefit, and a few people with cash manage to delay it for years with a lawsuit which is eventually found to have been groundless. What is worse is when public officials decide to rebuild obsolete facilities exactly as they are BECAUSE not only is the public approval process for something different (CHANGE IS BAD) so arduous, but any such approval can be delayed by a lawsuit on procedural grounds (ie. the Manhattan Bridge).
Has anyone been on a viewliner sleeper?? what is your opinion of it?
The're OK--did Toledo to Albany on Lake Shore Ltd. I doubt they will age as well as the BUDD products they displaced but such is life. The rooms are conveniently laid out. They ride well. If I sound underwhelmed well they are better cars IMHO than the bilevels but then what aren't?
Has Amtrak retired all of the old "Heritage" cars? I don't recall seeing them around recently, although I never really looked for them.
The old Hertiage sleepers are now used as employee sleeping cars on some long distance eastern runs(Silver service, Cresent for sure)
I think that one of the reasons people love expresses, even when they are not faster (and people have figured this out), is that the expresses are more comfortable. You are not being started and stopped, which most folks probably consider uncomfortable. Also, not so much jostling as people move in and out at frequent stops. Lastly, its easier to read, sleep, or just zone out without the sounds of announcements, ding dongs, and doors at each station interrupting the white noise.
I am not saying that this makes it sensible to run from a seat on the local to stand on the express. But it is an advantage.
(thanks for posting a cool article, too)
You may have heard about the shortage of sites for new large stores, especially supermarkets, in the boroughs outside Manhattan, and the City Planning Department's proposal to allow new stores on major streets in manufacturing areas. It was turned down by the City Council after big donations by the few oligopoly supermarket chains which provide such poor service in poor neighborhoods. Since then, attempts to open stores have revolved around loopholes.
I was reading about the huge, abandoned S. 4th St station. If it the length of a train, it is 600 feet long, and with six tracks and four platforms, it could be 100 feet wide. That's 60,000 s.f., the size of a new first class supermarket! And, since underground space does not count as "floor area," size limits do not apply! They build a supermarket in the basement on Grand Avenue in Maspeth to use that loophole. In any event, if its where I think it is, it's alredy commercially zoned, and supermarkets are allowed without size limits.
Why not a subway supermarket? Residents of Bed-Stuy, Clinton Hill, Williamsburg and Greenpoint could take the G there, bring their "Granny carts" up (down?) on elevators, shop, and take the G home. Others could arrive by bus or subway on Broadway. It might even become a tourist attraction. You might even get some rent out of it.
Any other outer borough station "shells" good for retail, and unlikely to be used for tracks? Got to be 35,000 s.f. or more and in a commercial or industrial area.
How about the abandoned trolley terminal next to the Delancey Street station on the J/M/Z? It seems pretty big, though I can't be sure that it would meet the 35,000 sf requirement, and the area aboveground is commercial (and surely could use a modern supermarket).
Showing my age again. Directly adjacent once stood the Essex Street Retail Market one of the classic urban precursors to supermarkets. These were the city owned at least in DC & NYC buildings wherein each vendor rented a stall from which to purvey his merchandise--fish, dishes, veggies whatever. Do these buildings still exis anywhere in NY?
The Essex Street Market building is still there, although it's no longer used as such. I suppose the Greenmarkets are the successors to the public markets.
I think there's also one at East 10th Street and 1st Avenue in Manhattan. It was used by the Sanitation Department for many years, but I don't know what they're using it for now.
I timed it on the way home today, and each local stop seemed to add about 40 seconds to the ride with slow down, speed up, loading, unloading, closing, pausing, moving. And additional nine local stations is six minutes. That's an hour per week at ten trips per week. Allowing for holidays and vacations, that's 48 hours per year -- two days. Over a 30 year career, that's two months lost from the prime of life.
It adds up. So does the time spent waiting due to long headways. People desperately want that time.
With all due respect I think you are over analizing. The point is in those 6 minutes, how many express trains pased you by? If you are analizing about how many extra minutes over a day, week, month or career, the solution is to move closer to your place of employment for a shorter commute. Also, in the question of car reliability on another thread based on the Straphangers Campaigns Report: How can the J M & L have different car reliability when they share the same cars interchangibly?
And some, like myself, just plain get satisfaction knowing that their (our) express is going to skip the next couple of stops whether it crawls or zooms along. No stopping, loading, unloading, etc.
A couple of days ago there was a thread about the York Street station on the F line. It was noted that in years past, the now-nearly disused station was quite busy due to its proximity to the Brooklyn Navy Yard. This then prompted a side discussion about the jobs at the industrial park that now occupies the Navy Yard site - Larry Littlefield cited a report saying that there are only about 3,500 jobs in the Navy Yard plus adjacent buildings, way off the peak.
Talk about coincidences, the new issue of Crain's New York Business (online at www.crainsny.com) has an article about economic stagnation in Brooklyn. For a variety of reasons, it lags the rest of the city in job growth and leads in unemployment. At any rate, the article said that the city's original plans when it took over the site predicted 15,000 jobs - but today there are only 2,700 (the additional 800 which Larry cited apparently include nearby buildings). So the lack of patronage at York Street seems to be no surprise ...
Yep, my boss had me put together a package of data on Brooklyn for Crains a couple of weeks ago. Good to know I earn at least a small part of my salary.
Brooklyn has experienced what might be called "virtual development." A developer or private company announces a proposal, the local newspapers fill with rage at the "suburbanization" of urban Brooklyn, the destruction of existing small businesses, etc etc and the investor thinks better of it and goes away. Meanwhile, Brooklynites shop and conduct other business elsewhere.
Among the things the "commuity" is fighting -- a major entertainment complex at Coney Island (wouldn't be a "historic," outdoor one season only amusement park and would draw traffic), a smaller complex of housing, stores and restaurants at Fulton Ferry (outsiders and traffic near artists illegally residing in an M-zone and affluent Brooklyn Heights), an "auto-oriented" "inappropriate suburban shopping center" located directly over the junction of the B and N in Borough Park, and a "suburban" entertainment and retail complex located under the Smith 9th St subway station. These developments would provide "dead end" jobs, and are not worthy of the 30 percent of Brooklynites on welfare. We need "good manufacturing jobs" like the old Navy Yard, and should not accept anything less. Every Brooklyn councilmember voted against the proposal to make it easier to open new supermarkets. They felt that existing merchants (who might then be required to clean their stores and sell food which has yet to rot) deserved "compensation."
Good thing the subway system is already built. No doubt our "representatives" would "protect" us from it today.
Ah yes, the oft-repeated mantra about "good manufacturing jobs." Anyone will agree that a $20 per hour factory job is far more desirable than a $7 per hour retail job. Keeping things in transportation terms, much of the push behind the proposed cross-harbor freight tunnel is motivated by the desire to get more of the $20 stuff. But what these "community activists" and politicians can't/won't realize is that the factory jobs aren't coming back to the Navy Yard or elsewhere in Brooklyn. The jobs instead are going to Mexico and places like that. Which means that if Brooklyn is going to get any jobs, they're likely to be the $7 retail type. Ideal? Hardly. Better than nothing? Definitely.
Damn straight we can use the retail jobs. I just ready 25,000 people showed up looking for one of the 250 jobs at the new hotel. To hell with the liberals who say such jobs are not good enough, and the conservatives who say people are on welfare are unwilling to take them. I'll take that new film studio at the Navy yard is those guys can get financing. What the small number of pro-manufacturing adovatates also don't realize is that the factory jobs we used to have were the $7.00 per hour type. Apparel, toys, and electronics -- the stuff they do in China now. Not the auto industry.
The truth is the people who oppose retail don't really want factory jobs either. The truth is there is dozens of storefront workshops around Brooklyn, providing jobs, making nice stuff -- and violating the zoning. Try to change that zoning. These same people will want anyone who opens a business to go through a two year review process to ensure the "community" is "protected." Just a year or two ago there was this big outcry about the "sweatshops" ruining the quality of life of residents living next to manufacturing zones by bringing trucks in at night. Sure enough, for one year out of 20, apparel mfg employment went up -- the activists were out immediately.
A libertarian is a liberal who has been mugged by a coop board, community board or any board.
[The truth is the people who don't want retail don't really want factory jobs either]
It sounds strange, but I've heard it too. One gets the impression that some of these "community activists" don't want *any* sort of development whatsoever. Which strikes me as selfishness run totally amok. Maybe these activists are economically secure and don't need any sort of development, but they fail to see that not everyone is so secure. How pointless .... why don't they just move to rural North Dakota if they want solitude???
There are times when new development is wildly out of synch with a neighborhood's character and ought to be opposed.
What gets me about some of the complaints of urban community watchdogs is that they oppose RE-development of crumbling, vacant factories, railroad lines and such -- uses that were the heart and soul of their neighborhoods before some of them moved in.
Give me a break. A lot of Coney Island's "historic" district is a bunch of empty lots and a few rotting renmants of past glory (I'm talking about the dead roller coaster not the parachute jump). That area also has a great big subway terminal which should take care of people coming in from other parts of the borough. (Don't know about road access). They don't want an entertainment complex, they don't want a minor league stadium. Lots overgrown with grass and weeds help the community much more. Geez, if the Dodgers tried to start in Brooklyn today, they would be thrown out, because Ebbets Field would "increase traffic" and "destroy the local community."
Metro Denver has its share of "just say no" citizens: no to the 1976 Winter Olympics (the IOC hasn't forgotten); no to light rail (which we now have); no to major league baseball (the Rockies have led the majors in attendance since their inception); no to Denver International Airport, (OK, it's had its problems, but Stapleton was outmoded). Unfortunately, there are people who would just assume keep the status quo.
Since some of those things actually happened, Denver must have fewer lawyers. Here in NYC, anyone and any group with enough money could have hired a lawywer and stalled any of those projects after they had been approved. With enough motions and appeals, it could have gone on for as long as four years. That's usually enough to kill any project, but the litigators are often willing to settle for personal "compensation." Of course, if the project is modified, it must be reapproved. And if it is reapproved, another group can file lawsuits on procedural grounds.
WILL THESE CHAMPIONS THREE PEAT NEXT YEAR?
Any experts on GCT here? If there is please post.
I know there are two levels for tracks. There are loop tracks and
yard tracks to store trains. There is a third and fourth level.
The third level is a baggage tunnel and storage rooms for equipment.
The fourth level is the heating plant and utilities. That's it. I'm sure there are no levels below that. No abandoned tracks or platforms.
One thing I still don't understand is the "condos" under within the station. What are they? Does anyone know? I asked many people but they don't seem to know. Are they abandoned storage/utility rooms?
Re: all those folks bemoaning the "N" as the slow boat to China -
any real change won't come until they fix the Manhattan Bridge, and who knows when that'll be...2003, they say. In the meantime, here's a three-pronged approach that would work right here, right now.
1. Run the "N" express between 57th and Canal, then switch it to the tunnel. Once on Fourth Avenue, run it express out to 59th Street.
2. Terminate the "R" at Whitehall Street (thus restoring the old "EE" route)
3. Run either the "J" or the "M" through to 95th Street. (My pref is the "J")
Restore the Broad Street and Fulton Street station weekend service.
Once the bridge is fixed, send the "N" over the bridge, restore the "R" to its former route and send the "J" (or "M") to 9th Avenue.
They used to have service like this, what happened? Runs only during the rush hours now. Budget cuts, I guess.
Wayne
I'm not that confident on the 2003 date. The bridge seems to deteriorate as fast as they fix it. Some say that it will be under constant reconstruction, and that half of the tracks will be out much of the time forever. Let's hope that time spent with both sides open is not balanced by time spent with both sides closed.
We are paying a high price for the decisions of the past. The city's capital plan consists of patchings its rotting schools, patching its rotting bridges, and buying police cars and fire engines. Everything else is secondary.
They should spend the money to move the trains off the bridge. Only then will Brooklyn's future be more or less assured. Who believes in 2003 after the past 12 years?
I thoroughly agree that the money getting put into the Manhattan bridge is a big waste of money. The money that is being invested is a waste of money since it is just to bring it to good repair for subway and auto use. What happens say after 10 to 20 years of use? that same bs all over again. The money to repair the subway portion could go to construct an underwater subway tunnel.
Better yet complete the lower level of City Hall station and connect via an under river tube to Court St(transit museum stop).
While it's a great idea, I doubt it would be feasible. Such a tie-in would have to dodge several existing lines, not to mention tunnels. Speaking of Court St., the tracks which dead end at WTC, where the E terminates, were supposed to continue south to South Ferry, then swing over under the East River to Brooklyn and link up, along with the proposed 2nd Ave. line, to the stub at Court St.
Improving N train service is crucial!!!!!!! The service is very insulting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It is not schedule properly!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I was waiting for a N train this morning. It took 15 minutes to come from the Ditmars Blvd station!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! By the time it arrived at the Astoria Blvd station (I was at) it was almost full to compacity in the rear of the train!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I guess it was much worst in the center of the train. By the time it arrived at 30th Avenue it was TOO FULL to accomodate all the people waiting at the station!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! TRAIN SERVICE WAS INADEQUATE FROM STATION TO STATION, BECAUSE PEOPLE WANTED TO GET ON THE TRAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BY THE TIME WE GOT TO THE QUEENS BLVD STATION, IT COULD NO LONGER TAKE PASSENGERS - PEOPLE WERE ON TOP OF EACH OTHER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BEFORE THE TRAIN COULD PULL OUT, THE CONDUCTOR MENTIONED A PASSENGER WAS SICK, AND THAT SERVICE WILL BE DELAYED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SO..... I SIMPLE GOT OFF THIS HORRIBLE, SLUGGISH, INCREDIBLY SLOW TRAIN AND TO THE FAST #7 TRAIN WENT. I was at the Times Square Station within 15 minutes. I WROTE PLENTLY OF LETTERS EXPRESSING MY FRUSTRATION, BUT APPARENTLY, NO ONE IS LISTENING. I USE TO HAVE THE OPTION OF WALKing TO THE Q TRAIN FROM QUEENSBRIDGE, HOWEVER, THAT LINE DOES NOT EXIST ANY MORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'M REALLY VERY UPSET THAT I HAVE TO PAY MORE FOR SHABBY SERVICE. IS SOMEONE LISTENING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You should note, that N service, along with ANY service running on the BMT southern Division, is likely to get fouled up because of slow speed limits due to the way the lines were constructed in the 1910s and 20s. B service is even worse, with heavy mergers at Bay Parkway, 36th Street, DeKalb interlocking, 59th Street interlocking, 145th Street....
"N" has 26 trains in the AM rush, and 23 in the PM rush. No wonder it was rated dead last, along with the B, for on-time service.
You're complaining to the wrong people. This is not an official MTA/NYCT site, and I doubt anyone who could actually help is reading your posts. All we can do is sympathize.
Yes, the N is bad -- they don't call it the Never for nothing. It doesn't help that it's paired up through Manhattan with the Rarely. Given the situation with the Manhattan Bridge, I'm not sure there's much that can be done -- the N shares the Montague Street tunnel with the M and the R, neither of which has stellar service either, and there's no other route it could take to Brooklyn.
I'm not familiar with Astoria -- is there a bus you could take to Queens Plaza or Queensboro Plaza? Then you could hop right on the E/F/R or the 7 (or N, if it comes after all).
And how are you paying more for shabby service? The price has been going down, not up.
Down?
Technically, yes. Eleven-trip MetroCard sets the fare at $1.363
per trip - and it goes down from there with the weekly/monthly
passes. It's not a lot, but it's techically a fare decrease for
those of us using MetroCard. Throw in the free bus transfers
and it's even less.
[ Run the "N" express between 57th and Canal, then switch it to the tunnel. Once on Fourth Avenue, run it express out to 59th Street. ]
The time "saved" on the N express would be negated by its waiting to merge with the R local at Canal Street. We're talking, at most, 5 local stops skipped with not much of a running time difference between the express and the local. You also have the same merge problem after Dekalb, where N expresses would have to merge with B trains still using the bridge.
[ Terminate the "R" at Whitehall Street (thus restoring the old "EE" route) ]
Interesting idea but I'm not sure how many Brooklyn riders would be inconvenienced by this.
--Mark
As you all know NYCT runs a paper railroad: It looks great on paper, but tough to work in practice. With the N/R you try to write schedules in which you have a consistent headway between trains. Let's say when they merge in Queens in the tube going to Lex: 10 min. headways on each line, so they arrive at Lex., 5th Ave., & 57 St. 5 minutes apart. If you then let the N make express stops to Canal, when they merge again, since the N was express & the R was local, you would no longer have that 5 minute headway from Canal to Pacific.
The biggest problem with the N running express along Broadway the way things are now is that it would have to switch not once, but twice - north of Canal St. and south of 57th St. The resulting potential delays would make any time savings a moot point.
Believe me, no one wants to see Broadway express service restored more than I, but until the 63rd St. connector is opened, it more than likely won't happen. As for the Manhattan Bridge, well, I'll believe it when I see it.
I have noticed many R32 and R38 with what appears to be Bondo on the roof seams. If the cars are stainless, why do the roof seams need Bondo? or are the roofs some other material. The front of the cars also appear to be different (not as shiny?), same other material?
PATH I notice also has the same roof bondo.
Could be the rivets are letting go or leaking water? Don't know for sure. Next time on the "E" or the "A" I'll get a closer look. Come to think of it, I saw something like that on one of the Slant 40's today on the "L" - think it was 4406-4407, gray compound along the roofline. Not sure if we're talking about the same thing.
The gray stuff is what I am asking about. I called it Bondo since that is was is used on cars and they are metal.
Yes, photo shows stuff along the ventlines on 4407 and also on 4412.
Methinks we'd have to find somebody from CI body shoppe who knows more on this subject. (Bill? Steve? Do you know somebody?) One would think that stainless steel is corrosion proof but in this smoggy atmosphere, who knows...34th anniversary for R32, 32nd for R38, 30th for Slant R40 and 29th for R40M and R42, and a LOT of time spent outdoors for all of the above. Talk about yeoman service...
I just love our stainless steel beauties.
May they continue to roll on into the new millenium...
Wayne
The roofs on the R-38 through R-42 cars are not made of stainless steel. They're made of carbon steel, which rusts.
David
I'm with you on that wish. I hope the R-32s and R-38s, in particular, stick around for a long, long time. As much as I like the R-32s, I still feel they looked better when they were brand new and had their trademark blue doors. The very first subway train I ever rode in New York was an N of spanking new R-32s on July 21, 1965 - a red-letter date in my life if there ever was one. My love affair with the subway started on that very day.
Some stainless steel alloys are more corrosion resistant than others. If you introduce halogens (chlorides, fluorides, bromides) into the mix, your chances of corrosion increase. Salt, which is prevalent in New York, is a chloride.
During very heavy rains, many cars develope roof (water)leaks. They fall into two catagories. The most prevalent are the R-32s - through R-40 slants. Before overhaul, these cars had fans instead of AC so the roofs were vented. The roofs were modified during overhaul, to accommodate the AC. The seams in the modified roofs have proven to be problematic. This is not so prevalent on the MK overhauls but is on the Buffalo Transit (R-38 and some R-32s) and on the Sumitomo (R-40Ms).
The second type of water leak is on the R-40s through R-68A. This is more a problem with the sealant used between the Stainless Steel carbody and the Fiberglass bonnets. The worst of this type is the R-44.
Several methods of sealing have been tried. Selastic sealant is most common but 'exotic' solutions such as a stainless steel tape backed with epoxy has been used on the R-40s and R-46s. A new process by Dow Corning is being investigated.
Does the stainless crack on the roofs over the rear doors on the RTS buses? I have seen a few that have welds. Is stainless more rigid and more likely to crack and pull away, causing leaks?
"Locals often sweep by crawling expresses; an express train will suddenly wind up on the local tracks; a Broadway train will suddenly pull into Grand Central with only the vaguest indications of its intentions."
Could someone kindly explain to me how a Broadway train could pull into Grand Central? It wouldn't even fit. (I know, they mean the Seventh Avenue line, but we all know what the Broadway line is.)
And since when did trains have intentions? (Granted, they often seem as though they do.)
Very good David. I was waiting for someone to catch this excellent demonstration of investigative reporting. It must happen on the tracks on the third level. It's just like the movies. Any train can go to any station at anytime.
You mean you never heard of the secret tunnel which August Belmont used for his private car, the "Mineola", which diverged from the lower level of the BMT City Hall station, used the old Beach Pneumatic Subway tunnel, went north up the actually completed (in 1975, but never made public!) Second-Ave.-Subway to 42nd St. which then turned west to GCT? :)
August Belmont's Mineola was stored on a spur track in the basement of the Belmont Hotel on 42nd St. This spur track tied into, I believe, the southbound local track of the original IRT mainline, now part of the 42nd St. shuttle. From there, Belmont and his entourage would cruise (running express, of course) on down Park Ave. past Union Square, past Brooklyn Bridge, to Brooklyn via the Joralemon St. tunnel, to a connection at Atlantic Ave. with the LIRR and onto Belmont Park.
As for Beach's Pneumatic Subway, it was abandoned and forgotten when workmen building the BMT Broadway line broke into it in 1912 or thereabouts. That line was only 312 feet long, anyway, and ran for about one block.
P. S. As for a Broadway train ending up at Grand Central, it's quite feasible: run a #1 or #9 around the loop at South Ferry and switch it over to the Lexington Ave. (inner loop) track just past the station.
Most roadways uses tracks tied down to (ties?) . They are placed on top of the steel beams. Nothing between them and the street. Wouldn't filling the empty spaces on the viaduct with ballast or cement make it a lot less noisy?
Also in Forest Park in Woodhaven, there is a abandoned ROW of the LIRR.
What branch was this?
There is also a LIRR station just before the 121 street atation on the J line. What's the name of this one?
With regard to your second and third questions (I'll leave the first to someone else), the abandoned LIRR line in Forest Park is the old Rockaway line. It once ran from the main line in the Rego Park area, south through Forest Park, and all the way out to the Rockaway Peninsula. In the early 1950s the subway system took over the southern park of this line, which now is the A train to Far Rockaway. The portion from the main line (the junction with which was known as Whitepot Underjump) to the A at Rockaway Boulevard saw limited LIRR service until the early 1960s, when it was abandoned. Various proposals have been floating around about resuming service, but nothing's ever gone beyond the talking stage.
The station near 121st on the J line is Richmond Hill, on the LIRR diesel branch that runs to Long Island City. Richmond Hill and several other local stations on the line were closed earlier this year due to low ridership. Trains still run along the line to Long Island City from Jamaica but no longer make any intermediate stops.
I'll take a stab at your first question. It seems that you are refering to elevated tracks, from your description of the roadbed. No doubt a solid roadbed would help to deflect noise upward and away from the street. It probably wouldn't make subway service less noisy (like rubber tires would); it would just make the street level less noisy.
The problem with adding fill to the elevated is that it would increase the weight of the tracks, perhaps beyond what the steel superstructure can safely hold. Indeed, there are several construction idea that would help with the noise of passing trains on elevated tracks, for example, parabolic walls on either side of the tracks to deflect sound straight upward. Again, though, there may be an engineering problem with that.
--mhg
The trackbed is attached to the steel EL structure underneath using J bolts. It isn't just lying up there not attached to anything.
--Mark
Congrats to Jason (722miles) for the nice M-4 picture on the SEPTA homepage. They even included the www.nycsubway.org URL.
And, It was nice of SEPTA to also leave the credit lines there, too. Only question to Dave P. is: Did they ask first?
No, they didn't ask me but they may have asked Jason DeCesare directly. I don't think he reads SubTalk. I'll find out if they asked him and let you all know.
-Dave
Perhaps I should read SubTalk more often! :-)
They don't have permission, and they used photos in the past without asking. They are a bunch of rat bastards.
According to the whois info the man to contact is
Administrative Contact:
Duckett, Ambrose (AD1599) septa@LIBERTYNET.ORG
215-580-7010 (FAX) 215-580-7590
I suggest you call and fax him with your outrage of stealing other people's intellectual property.
I am going to do that first thing Monday morning.
(Ah, the joys of finding such things out on a Friday after 5 PM!)
About a month ago, in response to an on-screen suggestion, I e-mailed
some info regarding two NYCT accidents not listed under the "New York
Subway Accidents" web page - I was wondering if you ever received
this. If not, may I resubmit it?
One of them happened Dec.1, 1972, the other Dec.12, 1978. Both resulted in severe damage to equipment, and, fortunately, a minimum
number of injuries. But both were spectacular accidents.
Any questions, e-mail me
WLWhitehorne@compuserve.com
and I will respond with the information.
Thanks,
Wayne
I heard a story about a woman who, for years, made jewelry out of subway tokens and sold them at street fairs. Recently, she tried making earings out of metrocards, using the little hole for the ear hook. As the story goes, a transit employee spoted her, (this was in Brooklyn) and she is now being sued by the TA for marketing their "trademarked" image! (that's Guilliani for you)
How does this marketing of the MTA affect collectors who buy and sell old subway maps and other collectables with the TA logo.
I saw on television recently that Donald Trump registers all of his buildings so that, in the event that one of them appears in a hollywood movie or someone wants to use one as a backdrop for a television commercial or a print add, he can collect a usage fee! The news story suggested that the Mayor is looking into doing the same for various landmark city buildings.
It seems that there is a world of money and Disneyesque fascism that runs the lives of ordinary people who could never afford to participate in that world. I am reminded of Native Americans selling Manhattan to Peter Minnuet for 60 Guilders thinking all along that the land was like the air and the sky, things which no one could really lay claim to.
What's Next?!?
If I recall, those bad guys in Philly, also made a stink with Bachmann models when they issued the PCC in SEPTA markings
>How does this marketing of the MTA affect collectors who buy and sell old subway maps and other collectables with the TA
logo.
It shouldn't affect it at all. Trademark protects against people who sell counterfeit goods. You're allowed to posses, trade, or sell your property -- maps, signs, tokens -- without violating Trademark law, so long as you don't start creating new versions of these things.
The big picture is a bit more complicated than that, of course, but I won't get into it unless someone asks.
--mhg
There was another case I heard about where a church group was having what I guess was some kind of Bazzar or flea market. Anyway, they charged a dollar admission and handed out literature as you entered. Among their handouts were free subway maps. Apparently, the TA sued because they claimed that the church was profiting from their map and they wanted a cut.
The trademark issue raises a couple of questions in my mind--
1. What legal right does the MTA/TA have to hold copyright or trademark rights? Don't the people of the State and City still own the system?
2. Who owns reproduction rights on old maps and publications, such as old IRT, BMT, IND maps before and after unification? Could I make T-shirts, sweatshirts, trivets, rugs, or beach towels (for profit or for gifts or to wear myself), using a 1925 IRT map or a 1948 BofT map or a copy of the "Subway Sun"?
Curiously,
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
I believe that the older stuff is probobly in the public domain while the newer stuff, it seems, more and more, is being protected as the city is learning that it is an exploitable resource. The T-Shirt example is exactly the same as my above mentioned story about Metrocard Jewelry. One might ask, if I have my camera with me when I ride to work and I take a picture which I later sell to some publication, does the TA have a right to calim some of the money I make? I don't know the answer. I am sure that there is some Journalistic license allowed for photographs but if the photo is used to sell a product... I can't say I know the leagal in's and out's on that one. I mean you might have a passing subway car in your cigarette ad, but if the TA logo is featured, they might have the right to complain.
Any leagal thoughts???
1) So far as I know, there is nothing to prevent the MTA from owning the copyright in its own works, or to hold copyrights in other people's works. The idea that the MTA can't copyright anything it makes is one thing, but so far as I know only the federal government has adopted that rule for itself. There is no policy reason why the MTA couldn't hold copyright in other people's works, though.
2) Probably, the copyrights for the old maps passed to the successor companies as the old IRT & BMT were absorbed. The MTA likely holds them. It's hard to say whether or not they have expired. Enough time has passed that they could have, but not so much that they must have. It would be very difficult to tell without going to Washington D.C. and looking it up. As long as you aren't selling mass quantities of things, I doubt the MTA will take the time to bother you about it.
--mhg
It is dificult to say what the TA would be willing to do these days. Now that New York City is in bed with the Disney Corperation, they're wising up to all kinds of fascist explotation that comes with the territory of a mega-money giant.
If a Broadway Production like CATS can prohibit their audience from taking pictures during the performence, then why can't the TA prohibit photography on the subway???
Going back to my cigarette Ad example, even if the TA logo does not appear in the ad, the TA could argue that the look of the Train and/or station/tracks/tile work/local, is indicitive of their product and therefore demand payment.
Similar restrictions could be used to control the press. Tabloid photographers can take pictures of celebrities or "Newsworthy Events" but since broadway productions do not allow photogaphy in the theater, they might be able to sue the paporazzi that takes a picutre in that venue. If the subway or the city, weilded the same leagal stick, they could have a certain editorial say over what news photos got printed if they were taken on the subway or on city property or included city owned logos or "trademarked" visages.
In some countries it is illegal to take pictures of a Policeman. Could the city "trademark" the badge and uniforms of cops and other city officials??? Remember the cop who posed nude in Playboy? The city had a stink about her using the uniform. I believe they sued even though it wasn't her actual uniform or something like that. I think there was another case in New Jersey with a Fireman who appeared in an X-Rated movie with a fire hat on. I know that when a sports figure appears on a television ad, the sponsor pays an extra liscencing fee to the team for the use of their uniform/logo.
I am wondering how much the city pays its leagal departments to sort all of this stuff out.
Chris,
You've jumbled together a whole bunch of things. Let me try to straighten it out a bit.
For starters, the comparison to CATS is not very helpful. CATS is a private organization using on private property. CATS can condition your theater experience upon almost anything it wants.
The TA is a public authority, bound by a different set of rules. The subways and buses are public places. The TA can restrict people's behavior there to protect safety, operations, etc. It can certainly prohibit film crews disrupting subway stations, or make financial arrangements with film crews to use certain equipment and areas. But there are real limits to what I can do, and those limits prevent the sort of things that you're worried about.
The TA can't start preventing or charging tourists to take pictures of buses, or charging royalties for use of those photographs, or seeking payment for everyone who views art or advertisement that contains images of the subways, unless certain other things happen. The reason is that various ways of protecting intellectual property -- patent, copyright, trademark, etc. -- apply to very specific situtations.
For example, the TA can prevent people from copying its logo under trademark law _only_ if the logo would be used in a way that creates customer confusion, for example if someone were making fake metrocards, fake MTA buses, etc. That's probably a good idea, actually. It can't use trademark to keep people from making cufflinks out of old tokens, or jewelry from metrocards, though, no matter what it says.
For another example, the MTA can use copyright law to prevent people from copying the subway maps, which is also probably a good idea since there is really no legitimate reason to make copies of something that is free. It can't use copyright law to keep you from selling or giving the maps to others, though, again no matter what it says.
You are right to be concerned that the TA will act unreasonably, make bad decisions, pursue the wrong groups of people, or demand things that it's not entitled to. That sort of thing happens all the time. But there is a real difference between trying to protect the riding public and increase operating revenue, perhaps misguidedly, and fascism.
--mhg
--mhg
--mhg
The 3 line has no stops in the Bronx and the only IRT line in the city that goes to Brooklyn but not to thhe Bronx. So I have thought why don't they make make an new tunnel under 149 Street station that connects to the 4 line and let the 3 continue on the 4 line to Woodlawn. This will give big advatages like in the Morning the 4 train will be express in the Bronx (Going Downtown) making only stops at Burnside Avenue and 149 Street and being Local in Brooklyn to New Lots Avenue. The 3 on the other hand will be Local and be Express in Brooklyn to New Lots Avenue. In the Afternoon it will be the other wat. The 3 train will be Express (Uptown Only) Being Local from New Lots Avenue the 4 train will be Express in Brooklyn but be local in the Bronx and why can't we extend the the 5 into Westchester.
Hey, I had thought of something like this. Maybe connecting it into the old 9th Av. el/Polo Grounds connection south of 167th St. The only problem, it will miss Yankee Stadium and 149th. I don't know if there's room to build the connection on 149th, since the #5's connecting track tunnel snakes through the area.
I am all for mass-transit, and use Metro-North daily, but FORGET about extending subway service into my county. I didn't pay $600K for a house to be a block away from the #4 train. No offense meant, but I grew up in the Bronx (Morris Park) and know what I am talking about here.
I have a great solution for the freight tunnel issue. There is room for two more tracks on the Harlem Division. Why not put the freight crossing at the Tappen Zee, send it cross county along side I-287, then down the Harlem Division to the intermodal yard in the Bronx? I think its the most direct route, and it could connect to both CSX and Norfolk Southern. What do you think?
By the way, the last thing I would want is to live in some snuburb and have my children grow up with those kind of values. No offense, but I suffered though six years in Rye, and I know about this.
Isn't it funny that suburban people are not allowed to live their lives without a constant drumbeat of dissent? Suburban people don't constantly tell city people how wrong they are in wanting to live the way the do... They just hate having to subsidize it.
It'll never happen.
When there was talk about building a twin span next to the Tappan Zee for Metro North trains from Rockland/Orange counties into NYC, all the NIMBYs in Nyack and surrounding territories came out of the woodwork. In addition, this freight tunnel suggestion still adds on an extra 100 miles (approx) to deliver freight where the freight tunnel under the Hudson into NYC would eliminate all this mileage. This is the primary reason why 98% of NYC (& LI) goods come by truck.
--Mark
I didn't hear about the NIMBYs in Nyack, just that the MTA decided the span was not worth it for passenger service alone. As far as I'm concerned, the billion dollar freight tunnel is also a boondoggle. The way I figured it, if you could use the same crossing for both, it might actually pay.
At one time I was concerned that advocates for a freight tunnel might divert resources better used for other transit priorities. But the NIMBYs are already mobilizing against a freight tunnel. And it doesn't look like the billion is available for other transit priorities in the city, either. But I still think a cheap crossing at Tappan Zee is the best and cheapest alternative for freight. Besides, it wouldn't add 100 miles for stuff coming down the River Line from Albany or the line from Port Jervis.
Can you clariy exactly what you ARE talking about? Just why DO you prefer NOT to be in walking distance of a subway line? I can think of several possible reasons, some more legitimate than others.
1) You think it would be too noisy.
2) You don't want "those people" in your neighborhood.
3) You don't want your kid hopping on the train to Manhattan.
Your decision not to elaborate makes me think it is probably not just reason 1). FYI, many of us here in the city consider the notion that money entitles you to "buy" your way out of having to see or hear people you don't like to be extremely offensive. But I guess you know that.
Youre right make a new 149 Street Station before the origianl 149 Street Station put it on it's own tracks and it will have so much room to make a light turn on to the two line.
All well and good - but don't take away my favorite jughandle!
That's some curve there, Number Five.
Hey C.James - remember the OLD name of the 149th Street-Concourse
Station? (Hint: there's one sign left, and I have a good photo of it)
Wayne
If I am not mistaken it is Mott Haven Station am I right?
Hello C.James,
GOTCHA!!!!
138th Street was Mott Haven. (Icon sez: "MH")
149th Street-Concourse was "Mott Avenue".
I have nice pictures to e-mail you, if you would allow me to do so.
(Both stations) Just tell me where to send them. All you need is
a viewer or a paint program.
Wayne (WLWhitehorne@compuserve.com)
Love that jughandle, No.5! (Red Bird #7870 - screeeeeeeech!!!!)
That is one helluva curve - probably the sharpest in the whole system.
Ahhh, yes! But is it REALLY the sharpest? Sharpness is defined
by the curve's radius, rather than its angle. Mott's got one heck
of an angle, 120 degrees, or thereabouts. But City Hall Loop and
South Ferry Loop's got it beat on angles.
It would be interesting to find out just what IS the sharpest curve in the system.
My top 10 vote-getters:
IRT 5 - entering Mott Avenue
BMT N/R n.of Cortlandt St. (2 curves)
IRT 6 - second curve (the left) entering City Hall Loop
IRT 2/3 - betw. Chambers & Park Place
IRT 2/3 - n.of Fulton Street
IRT 7 - Queensboro Plaza
BMT J/Z - Crescent Street
IRT 1/9 - South Ferry
BMT J/Z - n/bound entering Chambers Street (2 curves)
BMT L - w.of Graham Avenue
There are too many others worthy of mention to list here.
Thanks for letting me screech
Wayne
How about the IRT 5 on the inner loop at South Ferry?
A Lenox-Jerome connection had been proposed many years ago. The line would have connected the Polo Grounds to the old 147 Street yard. The problem with the 9th Ave El connection, according to what I've read from an old ERA bulletin, is that the pickup shoes couldn't clear the tunnel wall in the Anderson Av area. The subway cars in use had their shoes cut to clear the tunnel.
I was talking with a friend yesterday and she mentioned that there is a one-stop commuter railroad in Princeton NJ that connects with NJT. I had consumed a few beers at that point so my memory is a bit fuzzy, but I seem to remember her referring to the line as "The Dinky." Does anyone have any idea to what I am referring?
Your friend is talking about the shuttle from Princeton Junction top Princeton. Locals call it "the dinky because it uses one car trains.
Who runs it?
The Dinky is a spur of the Northeast Corridor line. Although there is a track connection (I think), through-trains are never operated, so NJ Transit runs a single unit (two cars to a unit) between Princeton Junction on the mainline and "downtown" Princeton, literally steps from Princeton University. The Dinky is coordinated with arrivals and departures of mainline trains at Princeton Junction and the ride is all of about 3 minutes. I don't even think there is a fare just for a ride on the dinky, although the ticket agents issue two tickets for a trip to Princeton, one for the mainline, one for the dinky.
Why do commuter railroads seem to like cutsie-poo nicknames? You've got the Dinky on NJ Transit, and the Greenport "Scoot" on the LIRR.
Of course, the Dinky had a much more "railroad-y" sounding nickname, the PJ & B (for Princeton Junction and Back).
Yes, there is a track connection to the outermost westbound NEC track. This is how the cars are changed and ferried to and from the yards and shops.
I noticed at an early age that the IND, BMT, and IRT lines all used different methods of attaching the rails to the ties. I remember that many IND rails were attached with big hex-bolts, and BMT and IRT were either spiked or used a smaller bolts to attach the rail to a steel support. Now it seems that all of these methods are being supplanted by spring clips of some sort. Can anyone give me a brief historical perspective on the evolution of "attaching rails to ties?"
I am not too sure, but the spring clips may be "Sprandel Clips"' a patented way to attch the rails.
I was told it was "Pandrol". It was used in Europe before it came here.
It looks easier to install and remove that the others, since it goes in horizontally.
Thanks Eric - You are right about Pandrol!
there is some sort of storage (?) room "within" the path wtc loop - lights and air ventilation visible to the left of the esternmost path track. any idea what is there??
tia
bruce
I was stuck on that section on my way to NJ, and what I saw were electric cables (5 or 6 large spools of it; similar to the cables used by Con Edison and other electric companies), lots of garbage and
Emergency exits and emergency ventilation fans. Thats all. I think there's also a tower near there. Anything else somebody else saw?
Umm, do you mean along the outer wall of the easternmost (outermost) track? If these "rooms" were in the tunnels just outside the station, then you were probably looking at the partially-blocked tunnels to the old Hudson Terminal, before the building was torn down and WTC (and the current station) were built.
I don't think those rooms are part of the old tunnels. There's a diagram in one of the old ERA "Headlights" showing the layout of the old Hudson Terminal and new WTC in relativity to each other. If you take a look at this diagram (and if it is to scale, and if it's correct), it shows the old tunnels being "inside" the new ones. I think those spaces just hold ventilation equipment for the tunnels. (The uptown tunnels have their ventilation equipment in a building on the surface between West St. and the river at the foot of Christopher St. There is no building like that downtown, so I suspect the equipment is in that underground space.) Hudson Terminal's trackways would be under the parking area along Church St. (in front of the new Borders Books).
The diagram looks something like this. If I remember I'll scan it in later. Hudson Terminal is the inner loop, with the abandoned tunnels shown in === (presumably at a different level). Since WTC was built with no/little disruption to H.T. services, the abandoned tunnels have to be somewhere below, I would guess. Then again, the diagram could be wrong about the positioning of the "outer" W.T.C. loop.
/---------\
/ |
/ |
----===================\
| |
W.T.C.| | H.T.
| |
----===================/
\ |
\ |
\---------/
When SEPTA's Route 100 Norristown Line used to be called the "P&W",
I've heard one time that it had at least one nickname that began with
a "P" and "W". Does anyone know what it was? I remember reading about
it several years ago in a newspaper, but I just can't remember what
the nickname was. I know that "P&W" stood for "Philadelphia &
Western".
I grew up in P&W territory, so I know a few of the nicknames -
Poor & Weary and Pig & Whistle are two that I have commonly heard.
The Philadelphia & Western started out as a "grand scheme" railroad that was to be the competition for the mighty Pennsylvania Railroad. Alas, the P&W made it only as far west as Strafford, terminating in the "back yard" of the PRR station there.
The P&W really came into its own when the Lehigh Valley Transit was looking for access to Philadelphia for its interurban mainline. The LVT built a connection from their Allentown - Chestnut Hill line at Wales Juction to Norristown. The P&W constructed a its portion of the line from Villanova Jct. and Norristown. This line provided joint through LVT - P&W service between Allentown and Upper Darby from 1912 to 1949. The closest LVT ever got to Philadelphia was 69th Street Terminal. The story of the LVT - P&W is not germane to the above topic however..
The story of the LVT - P&W is not germane to the above topic however..
Please don't toy with us. You have piqued our curiosity and I am not familiar with the story.
Can you at least give us the short version and a reference where I can learn more?
The story of the LVT-P&W is a very interesting one. For me mainly, because I grew up in Montgomery County in Pennsylvania. Our first house was within site of the old LVT right-of-way. I have collected any books and articles that I've been able to get my hands on over the years.
Joe, I'm going to go home this evening and research "all the details" . I will post either tomorrow, or early in the week of July 6th, a summary of the LVT-P&W story along with references. I don't want to do it from memory, because I'm finding my memory is fading as the years go by.
This site has some interesting info on the CTA. (I checked the
links and didn't see it)
I just checked out this site. It was pretty well done, or so I thought until I visited the New York subway section of it. A good portion of it was stolen from this web site. The pages were copied, edited by him, and put up on his web site, some with my copyright messages still in the headers! He removed all credit to any photographer whose work appeared on those particular pages and if you didn't know any better it would appear that the pages were original content of his site.
I've asked that they be removed. I have a feeling that more of his site is probably a copyright violation as well.
-Dave
I didn't check the NYC stuff but I did notice on the Chicago pages
that some were taken from B. Vandervoort's Chicago transit fans pages. He acknowledged using them without permission??!!
This is off topic, but I'm curious -- what are the rules, or if there is no rules the accepted ethical behavior, for disseminating stuff on the Web? Does it matter if its available free, if permission is asked, if credit is given, etc? Is the most ethical behavior to provide a link to another site, so its creator can get the credit? And, to what extent does something become "yours" if you modify it to your own specifications? Do you need permission to use someone else's work as a "base" for your own work?
Not that I need to worry about this given my lack of skills in downloading and modifying stuff, but it is an interesting subject. Perhaps the issue is proper credit. If something is posted for free, what is "lost" to plagerism is not financial but reputational -- and the opportunity to use the interest generated by one piece of work to call attention to one's other work. Perhaps copying free stuff with attribution is a favor. But perhaps not.
Larry (& others),
It most certainly doesn't matter if it's given away for free or even if you paid for it (on pay per view sites). If it is marked copyrighted (and technically, even if it's not) it is protected by copyright laws in the U.S. and in the signatory countries of the Berne Convention. Anything that says it's copyrighted is protected under the law.
In this case in particular, copying it without asking permission or getting credit and then passing it off as original work is as unethical as it is illegal. It doesn't matter if he gave credit. Giving credit doesn't assume permission granted.
If someone comes to me and says "I'd like to use that picture or information" for some purpose, that's fine with me. I don't usually object. Obviously I can't speak for everyone who has contributed stuff to the site and in those cases I usually forward the requests to the right person.
Some items, like the photos from the Library of Congress, which appeared on this guy's web site, are not copyrighted any longer and are free to use. I can't complain about him doing that too much although he also stole the web pages and in essense is diverting hits from my own site through no real work of his own.
Admittedly, I've bent some copyright laws. In a case I am thinking of I sought permission from the holder and got no response, neither yay or nay. The items being about 40 years old, I figured what the hell. (The copyright expires after 75 years.) If they were to decide to enforce their rights I would be liable. But, in that case, if you look at the web page, there is no uncertainty as to where the information came from, who wrote it, and when and by whom it was published. This guy's bit of web plagiarism violates each and every one of those criteria.
And it wouldn't even bother me so much if he wanted to use all the pictures and do something new with them, i.e. provide some new content with our photos as illustration. All he did was reproduce the content exactly as we had it and claim credit for himself.
If that web site is for a school project, which it might be, I wonder if it's not too late to complain to the Dean of his school, as well as his ISP :-)
I and a couple of other contributors wrote him email this morning. No response yet.
-Dave
Most of his site is scanned from Krambles and Peterson's "CTA At 45"
It's interesting that he chose a recent picture of a SOAC at Seashore to represent the entire NYC Subway System, don't you think? There are much better pictures around one could plagiarize!
I wonder if the background of the Chicago pages (the 6000 rounding a curve) was scanned directly from the Book "CTA at 45" by George Krambles .... it sure looks familiar ....
The same is true of the QuickTime movie shorts he includes on his site. I know the guy David Harrison; we exchange videos ..... wonder if he knows about these movies, too?
And it was "interesting" to see my pictures (as well as OTHERS) from this site on his site. Ignorance of copyright law notwithstanding, not asking for permission from the owners of the pictures or the text is just discourteous and it is plagurism. Give him an F on his term paper ....
--Mark
A lot of the pictures came from the CERA book Chicago Rapid Transit
Rolling Stock 1947-1976, Vol II.
Most of the London Stuff is taken straight from the London Transport pages (http://www.londontransport.co.uk/). LT are usually quite vigorous in defending their copyright. On the other hand, their pages usually crash my browser and so it was nice to be able to read them without having to reboot my machine every page :-)
Seen a 9600 today on the M102 out of Westside depot today. Wonder how many are they gonna get, and if any of their older equipment will be retired?
The 9600 buses are here at gunhill depot also. As I know about it they are not going to retire their older equipment because of the rush of fare after july 4. (the new metro pass all week rided) What the Ta and Mabso has a real shortage of is Bus drivers.
no they will probably not retire it but send it to their two convalescent home depots here on staten island. you do not have to go to a bus festival to board old equipment just come out here. the other 4 boroughs are due to get 525 nova buses,westside will get at least 49.
I did notice that the SI bus division seems to be the dumping ground for older buses - So I wouldn't be suprised if more 1983 RTS get transferred over there.
those would actually be considered almost new out here. when they lowered the fare they broght back every 1700-1800 they could find.we still have a few 1981 rts like 1681, 1316 etc. rts buses have a lifespan of 12 years but perhaps mta is waiting for another disaster before retiring them.
I forgot about the 1981 ab=nd 1982 buses - I don't know how I could forget since we still have a few of them in the Bronx. By now I thought that all 1981 buses would have either been retired or rebuilt by now. If you think Staten Island has it bad with old buses - you should see some of the relics used in daily service at WMATA. They have many GM Fishbowls still rolling. Some of them were those that came to NYC during the Grumman crisis. They also have a bunch a Flxibles from the late 70's - similar to the NYCTA's old 9000 series Flxibles. BTW - Do SI Express buses still layover in Manhattan during the day??? If so, where now that Westside is open.
not at the present time but they say we may go back to west side depot in september. there is a union problem here as that is now a twu depot and si drivers belong to the atu.
Wayne,
LI Bus had some Fish Bowls & Grumman Flexiblels, last year I believe.
They may still be on their property. A CNG is more frequenly on the roads.
Mr t__:^)