Lets face it, internal combustion has gone the way of baseball and cable television. Only arcaic stuffiness and mallicious indiference to destroying the planet, not to mention the piece of mind of everyone, clings dogedly on. This will be the first in a series of ponderances aimed at stirring up the controversy needed to set us on the path anti-internal-combustion-enlightenment.
Here are some Ideas:
1. Eliminating Coal and Oil Delivery in the 5 boroughs. Come on people, Natural Gas, Methane, electric heat, and conservation are the way to go. Not only cleaner, but think of all the trucks! Coal is the worst because not only does it have to be delivered but the burned remains have to be carted away. The City and state can start by regulating themselves and converting (by atrition) all government buildings in the city from City Hall to parking garages, every police station, fire station, sanatation garage, courthouse, school, jail, hospital and library. All city and state office buildings, and social centers and stadia.
Next, laws and tax incentives can stop the use of coal or oil in all new constructions as well as set a deadline for conversion of other buildings. (like they did with low flow showers and toilets)
2. Busses.
New subway lines are much needed, but by over building and by creating lines that go to the airports and by creating a path line that runs from Newark to La Guardia via 110th Street, the city could drastically reduce, even eliminate the bus fleet! All busses should be banned from Manhattan, and restricted in the outer boroughs. I don't just want to see a 2nd avenue line, I want to see a 5th avenue line and a 10th avenue line. I want to see the L train extended to run down Houston to the world trade! I want to see the 7 extended to run to 10th avenue and the Javits Center! I want to see the SIRR connected by tunnel to world trade and beyond, not to mention the N,R across the narrows! I want to see the 10th avenue line continue across Canal Street to the East Village! I want to see a trolly run down York Street, across 57th and down 11th Avenue!
3. Trucks passing through.
Sadistic tolls and traffic fines is the way to disuade trucks bound for Long Island and Westchester from passing through our fair city! 75% of their cargo should be on rails anyway!
More to come
> Eliminating Coal and Oil Delivery in the 5 boroughs. Come on people,
>Natural Gas, Methane, electric heat, and conservation are the way to go.
>Not only cleaner, but think of all the trucks!
First off, electric heat is so ineffecient, it's not even funny. ground source heat pumps, however, are VERY efficent. About the only users of coal in the City is the public school system, which needs a much more drastic overhaul than the subways needed. Of course, as long as Partisan politics take their way, this won't change. Oil heat is a dinosaur, and is pretty much on the way out anyway. Please, by all means, consider NG for your heat AND cooling needs (bet you didn't know you can cool WITH heat!! And CFC free too!!). Actually, I *LOVE* gas heat (and have stock in Bug:) Of course, most people have yet to see the light as far as gas is concerned, no doubt due to that "Metroplitan Energy Council", i.e., the oil lobying group.
You'll NEVER get rid of the buses, but even here, NG buses can help GREATLY.
as far as trucks go, unless a new hudson river crossing happens around here, those things will be around forever. It's really more an issue of geography than anything.
Item 1 - Oil heat conversion: Are you going to pay for my neighbors conversion to gas heat?? Granted oil heat is slowly fading out, but a lot of older homes in NYC still have oil burners.
Item 2 - Buses: Again, where is this money going to come from. Remember, any business or individual that is heavily taxed can easily relocate out of this entire region. Just look at how the south and west are growing, and without much public transportation.
Item 3 - Trucks: Most of those trucks are bound for the five boroughs, and even if they weren't, the truckers have to pass the cost of increased tolls onto their customers.
I think I pointed this out before when this topic came up, but how about police cars, fire trucks, and ambulances?
I visited the Transit Museum the other day and saw a work diesel on display. It appears to be one of the GE types but with modifications. For example, the cab height is lower than stock GE diesels and there's a shroud around the exhaust. Presumably, these are modifications for tunnel operations.
Does anyone know what all the modifications are or where they're documented?
I think those were actually specail made by GE for the TA. I don't think a full size diesl would fit in IRT tunnels
The one on display has little clearance as is, so I expect that any
commercial diesel would require cghanges for use.
I may try a freelance version and post the results to subway modeling page at http://www.iop.com/~patv/railroad.html when I'm done.
Since I don't know which diesel is currently on display, I can only answer in general terms. The diesels purchased by the NYCT are built so that they will fit the envelope of IRT tunnels. The rough dimensions of the R-37 loco are;
37' 7" long, 8' wide and 10' 6" high. The average weight is 90,000 Lbs. The shroud around the exhaust is called the scrubber which removes pollutants from the exhaust. It's been replaced by a catalytic converter on newer locos.
You'd have all this info and much more if you had your copy of
"Revenue & Non-Revenue Car Drawings"
Sorry for the shameless commercial.
What's the co$t of a new subway car nowadays?
A few million. You could always buy a used one cheap, but beware of rolled back odometers ;)
The new M-4 cars in Philadelphia costed 1.3 million per car. Multiply that by 220 and you've got some serious billage. About 286 million bucks. Yowsa!
Yesterday, April 30, 25 rail fastening bolts were found deliberately remove from Tokaido Shinkansen (Thats one of the Bullet Train Lines)
In June 1993 a length of steel cable was found wrapped around the track rails only 300 Meters from the same site.
Vandalism in Japan?
That happens. And there's terrorism. Do you remember the 1995 incident on the Tokyo subway? It's happening a lot more now in places it wasn't before. And it doesn't happen here too often.
I would say that tampering with rail track is more sabotage, or even terrorism, than mere vandalism. And yes, I do mean to say *mere* vandalism. We bash vandals on this forum all the time as antisocial criminals, and rightly so, but it's a **big** leap from spray-painting trains or etching windows on a train to attempting to derail a train! (Then there is the stuff inbetween. Is stealing a life preserver from a bridge a mere theft or is it a potential homicide? Tough call.)
As to it happening here, terrorism here is rare, and even rarer for the subways or railways to be targets, but they still have not caught the person or persons who derailed the Sunset Limited out Southwest a few years ago, killing one of the porters. The bloody b*stard who did that cut the rails, but not before connecting the two sides of the cut with a wire so that the signal would continue to pass through it and indicate an intact rail. Anyone can do that, and it is a very hard thing to counter.
Actually, I know in the US at least, if such vandalism results in an accident that results in death, it is a captial crime, i.e., the person is juiced if found guilty. Also true with aviation too. This is the kind of useful stuff the FBI gets involved with, that you don't hear about on TV...
Are the automatic train "trippers" that keep a train from crashing into another supposed to be located by stations or along the track in random areas?
They are located at signals, wherever they are needed. This can be in stations, or in the tunnel. Wherever the need is to stop the train automatically, such a tripper is used. They also are used on some systems (PATH, NYCTA) to regulate speed. The signal section of this page describes it all...
I have been following the threads concerning vandalism on subways, buses and such and saw some less than flattering remarks concerning today's youth.
I find it unfortunate that American youth have the negative spotlight placed on them. Youth have often been to blame for some of society's problems and some are true. I think that there would be less vandalism, less petty crime and less frightened adults(I'll explain) if something were done to re-inforce values in today's kids. I have a son and he is respectful. He's not Wally but he knows his boundaries. He respects mine and I respect his. I have tought him that things like drugs and vandalism are the best ways to get yourself in some trouble. I've never had a policeman call me and say "Mr. Westinghouse, we've arrested your son" and hopefully I'll never have to.
I know(or think) that kids don't to have everyone on the street locking their doors and covering up their valuables when a group of kids walk by but a lot(not most, but a lot) don't help anything.
But adults must also take their blame for what's happening to our kids. There are great parents who teach their kids right from wrong and do it well. Why that isn't so apparent anymore is beyond me. Is it that our methods of punishment are too passive? A lot of parents have never put a belt to a child. I never have because I've never had to. I don't want to say that today's parents are doing bad jobs but they must take the responsibility and the initiative to realize that their kids aren't going to raise themselves and if you want them to be raised right(and their is a RIGHT and WRONG way to raise a child) they must be there from the beginning. Otherwise discussions like this would be rendered moot.
Those of you outside NYC may not know this, but private, unsubsidized mass transit has returned. Immigrants have found that by driving passenger vans in the outer boroughs, they can earn a decent working-class living and be their own boss. Husband and wife teams sharing the driving can earn enough to move into the middle class. The proliferation of these vans have led to a political, and public policy, brawl.
On one side is the TWU and MTA. They claim the private vans succeed by paying themselves lower wages and fewer benefits, threatening middle class jobs. And, that people use the vans despite their irregular schedules because the buses serve as an uncompensated back-up. The lost riders hurt public transport, reducing revenues, forcing service cuts and increased subsidies. The vans carry fewer passengers per unit of pollution and traffic congestion than buses, though more than cars. And many of the vans have no insurance, and are driven by reckless drivers. Influenced by these arguments, the NYC Council stopped giving licenses to legitimate van operators, turning all of them into outlaws.
On the other hand, some say that it is a waste for the government to subsidize 60 percent of the cost of buses when the private sector is willing to provide van services are free. In any event, the vans can increase service in areas which the MTA -- forced to keep little traveled routes defended by political consitutencies and losing money on every ride -- cannot afford to. Free marketeers have adopted the van owners, and claim that enforcement actions are an attempt to keep down minority entreprenuers. And some argue that diversity is good, and value the music and door to door service that van operators provide.
Much of the argument took place when the TA was struggling with service cuts, rather than being swamped by a service boom. The controversy seems to have died down, but only because of a stalemate in which the City Council refuses to allow van operators to get licenses and the Mayor refuses to take action against them. Its bound to come back.
Let's assume that no one who posts here is in favor of uninsured and reckless van drivers. Are you in favor, or opposed, to granting licenses to private van operators who, like the regulated taxi industry, meet certain standards?
I attended several of the van haering at City Hall and you have done a good job summarizing the entire issue. I feel as the Twu and Mta do, vans are fine as a supplemental service to Mass Transit. But before any regulations and arrangements are created, enforcement of current rules must take place. As it is now, Archer Av. is a parking lot for the vans and they pretty much pick up in bus stops and in the open except on days when the police have enforcement days and issure summonses and tow improperly registered vans.
Ah, vans. at one end you have the employer funded van so the timid employees need not mingle with the hoi poloi at the other end you have the hoi poloi who are sick and tired of the late, slow, or perhaps merely round about routes of the publicly run system. So the 'jitney,' 'the van.' the system outside the system. So they have paid holidays, health care? Will they run at late hours on other than the cream of the routes? What happens is that one way or another, they 'cherry pick' the riders which means that the major provider loses volume and thus revenue which COULD otherwise improve the entire system. Certainly the ability to custom craft what is in effect an express route is highly attractive, but these vans are not likely to undertake the marginal routes which are lifelines for some of us. BTW in the East Bay(SF bay area) the local transit authorities also use vans for lightly traveled routes.
Sure I've seen these "Dollar Vans" in front of Kings Plaza shopping Mall in Brooklyn. They operator was yelling one destination and since he only got 2 pax, he kicked them off and said he was going to the other destination...
Imagine if they did that with the B46??
[Sure I've seen these "Dollar Vans" in front of Kings Plaza shopping Mall in Brooklyn. The operator was yelling one destination and since he only got 2 pax, he kicked them off and said he was going to the other destination]
This observation goes right to an often-overlooked issue regarding the private vans. It's easy to reduce the debate over the vans to a referendum on unions: if you like unions, vans should be prohibited, while if you don't like union, vans should be allowed. Or the debate can be phrased as a defense of free enterprise and entrepreneurship. Yet things aren't so cut and dried in real life and answers aren't so easy to find.
Public transportation in the United States is a hybrid of a business and a social service. Many uneconomical routes are maintained because of a preceived need to provide essential transportation services to areas that can't support heavy ridership. The real issue is whether this social service role outweighs the business role - in other words, can money-losing bus service be cut back in favor of money-making private vans, even though some areas will lose all or most service in the process? As has been noted in this thread, private vans are going to engage in "cherry picking" to some extent. At any rate, I don't have an answer to that question, and somehow I doubt many people do.
[Sure I've seen these "Dollar Vans" in front of Kings Plaza shopping Mall in Brooklyn. The operator was yelling one destination and since he only got 2 pax, he kicked them off and said he was going to the other destination]
This observation goes right to an often-overlooked issue regarding the private vans. It's easy to reduce the debate over the vans to a referendum on unions: if you like unions, vans should be prohibited, while if you don't like union, vans should be allowed. Or the debate can be phrased as a defense of free enterprise and entrepreneurship. Yet things aren't so cut and dried in real life and answers aren't so easy to find.
Public transportation in the United States is a hybrid of a business and a social service. Many uneconomical routes are maintained because of a preceived need to provide essential transportation services to areas that can't support heavy ridership. The real issue is whether this social service role outweighs the business role - in other words, can money-losing bus service be cut back in favor of money-making private vans, even though some areas will lose all or most service in the process? As has been noted in this thread, private vans are going to engage in "cherry picking" to some extent. At any rate, I don't have an answer to that question, and somehow I doubt many people do.
How about if the van owners were forced to purchase equipment that was ADA compliant? How about if this cut down on the number of seats for regular fare paying passengers? If there is going to be competition make it fair, if the buses must pick up wheelchair customers then so do the vans. And I know cause today I picked up a lady and her daughter in my bus and all they went was 6 blocks.
I have to count myself as being on the side of the vans - with, as you note, the proviso that they are properly insured and the drivers licensed. These fears that the vans will destroy bus service seem to be rather strained arguments to me. Are there independent market surveys to that effect? I don't think so. Vans and buses surely can operate together, and if a few marginal, money-losing bus routes are lost, that's not the end of the world.
In Jersey we call them "Murder Vans". But that's a comment to the operators' driving skills. Personally I am not crazy about them but they do take some of the load away from the buses. These buses are crowded enough. Sometimes we wait until 4 or 5 NJ Transits buses pass us by before one can be bothered to stop and pick people up. Unlike the MTA buses, NJ Transist will stop loading crowds after all the seats are taken. Sometimes they just pass people because they don't feel like stopping. I have been a nearly empty buses that refuse to take on passengers. So I have to tolerate these vans. In their own annoying little way, they actually help out.
Private vans really cut into the MTA's bus patronage in Southeast Queens where enterprising folks were getting passengers from Jamaica Center (E, J, Z) & the F line to Springfield Gardens, Hollis, Rosedale and other communities settled by mostly Carribean immigrants. The van only charged $1, unlike the $1.50 for the bus.
I don't know how things are since the city eliminated two fare zones using MetroCard since you can now take the bus & subway for a combined fare of $1.36 (if you have the 11 rides for $15 MetroCard).
I also know the van ran mostly Mon-Sat., rush hours & middays, leaving city buses to handle the late night, overnight & early weekend morning traffic which is lighter & less profitable. That doesn't seem fair.
For awhile, before MetroCard, the MTA even had discount plans in effect on the Q4, Q5, Q84, Q85 and a few other bus lines that were hard hit by van competition
It's true that the MTA is required to carry some heavily subsidized services, while other services might even be profitable. But for some reason, the MTA doesn't want to say so. You often hear that the subway fares are covering 80 percent of its costs, and the buses cover 40 percent or their costs. At a meeting I once asked a TA official if the TA knew what share of costs were covered on different lines, and at different times of day. The answer was all over the place. It sounded like Bill Clinton answering questions about executive priviledge, and included "it depends on whose ox is getting gored." I figured the TA would by dying to show they were unsubsidized on the routes a private carrier would chose to run, and were only draining tax dollars on lightly traveled routes run as a "social service." But no.
The problem is, that if the TA is running empty buses in some places at some times, it uses up the funds which could be used to provide better services elsewhere. The private vans fill the void. Why not?
Because the whole point is a single fare universal transit web so you can go from your home in Park Slope to the Bronx Zoo or Midtown or wherever and so should everyone else be able. The fantasy that any individual line is or should be profitable is insane. Where is the profitability of sidewalks? Subways and busses are just extended sidewalks in a really large village. They are a "public necessity and convenience," and so also the vans, cabs, jitneys et al. The only beef I have with vans is the potential of diverting riders thus distorting ridership stats leading to service cuts. I do however raise again the question: do these workers enjoy ANY "benefits"--sick leave health plans pensions vacations etc. If they do hooray! If not, then what you are championing is a lowering of the living standards of workers. I doubt you would personally volunteer to give up these bennies in order to save taxpayers a fraction of your wage package..
Let's clarify something here: is the objection to the use of vans, to private business, to self-employment, or to the loss of benefits?
The transit system was initially private. In most countries, it still is. It became a public service because the private sector was no longer willing or able to provide it. But that could be changing.
Self employment is growing rapidly in the city, especially in Brooklyn. It had been going down for 100 years, with most people becomming employees of large corporations or the government. Then in the mid-1980s, a rising share of people started working for themselves -- both nationally and in NYC. I know the data is right because it seems like most of the people we know work for themselves. Is that bad? More to the point, if this is what results from individual decisions by millions of people, as customers, workers, or both, should the government step in to FORCE PEOPLE to live differently? And even if it wants to, can it? For every person complaining about the rise of "contingent workers" not fully integrated into the corporate workforce, there is another complaining about the encroachment of corporate chain stores on independent firms. Is the objection to self-employment, or to change?
Losing riders seems an odd complaint, since the MTA loses money on every ride. If the amount of tax subsidy is fixed by politics (and where is the evidence that it varies with ridership?), having private vans remove some of the burden should allow the MTA to use the money to improve things elsewhere. And while lost riders might have been a great concern in the recession, it is less of a concern now with ridership soaring. The question is, can mass transit grow enough in size and quality to solidify a possible social change?
As for benefits, like most people my age I do not get a pension, but contribute to a 401K, even though I work for the government. The federal government has eliminated pensions. You pay in for those older, but as for yourself you either save or you don't. The self-employed have the equivalent. As for medical benefits, the medical industry has made itself so rich and expensive that none of us will be able to afford it if this keeps up. The insurance industry, despite the onset of HMOs, geneally pays out and then adds a surcharge. I work 34 hours per week part time (full time is 35) to have a flexible schedule for child care. As a result, I don't get paid holidays. My self-employed friends work according to their own schedules.
To me, the only reasonable objection to the vans is that they succeed by wasting a scarce private resource -- the street and the air -- relative to buses. But if that's the objection, better to ban private cars, car services and taxis, which provide alternatives for the better off, than vans, which take less road space and provide alternatives for the average person. Are the van operators poorer than their customers?
Personally, I'd like to see the vans -- the ones which would be law abiding if if there was such a thing -- incorporated into the system. Perhaps they should be organized allow purchase of cheaper group medical insurance and 401K plans, perhaps through the MTA's own plan. The Health and Hospitals corporation was considering offering a health plan to small businesses, who end up in public facilities anyway. Perhaps that is a solution -- private transit, and public health care.
Perhaps the MTA could offer loans for vehicle purchases to its employees who wanted to be their own boss, and give preference in hiring to those who had already worked in transit on their own. Perhaps the TA could even shift around its resources, allowing the private vans to serve what needs they can. The result would be more mass transit overall. I'm sorry I missed out on the era when mass transit was a huge and diverse business, and it was easier to get around without a car. Let's look at this as an opportunity.
Dear Larry, Ple4ase note, 1 I am self-employed, 2permanently redlined ouy of health ins. by "previous condition..."I'm not entirely against privately operated transit endeavors. That said, there is according to Joel Garreau in Edge City only one subway system on the planet which does not lose money--Hong Kong. As I previously said mass transit is merely extended sidewalk paving an amenity which defines a civil urban area. My comments about job conditions I think stand on their own. There is clearly no current political support for either healthcare or meaningful pension programs not tied to employment. Thus the worst category of large group health insurance costs more for a single private subscriber than the bestplan available through union or management deals for large organizatiopns. Enough of that the real issue is do either of us or others think lo-cost semi scheduled van pools operated for profit are okay. I see no point to outlawing such as long as the "rules" are followed. Here again however, we run up against the economic facts of life. Do these small time operators carry workers comp?--Sufficient liability ins.?...And can they afford to while still providing "discount" service? I am not trying to erect barriers. What I am concerned about is where is the "saving" being achieved.
MTA NYCTA could probably offer van service on lighter ridden bus lines and or expand territory with vans to supplement current lines. Cost is a barrier since fewers riders per driver drivthe cost up. Private van operators more than likely lack adequate insurance, competition among van operators is pretty heavy and can sometimes prove violent in some neighborhoods and aside from taxes paid for at gas pumps you know income from collected fares isnt paid. traffic is another issue one bus can carry the volume of 6-7 vans.
I once did some calculations with the information available, and it seemed that a couple operating a van (one person operating a van would have to work terrible hours to get fair value out of a van) could earn a decent living, netting say $40,000 -- %50,000 per year with some retirement savings and the availability of the van thrown in. Not bad for a job which, while not unskilled, does not require an academic credential, and thus is relatively accessible to many people.
The key variable is what they would have to pay for things like health insurance, liability insurance, and disability insurance. As you know, the self-employed get socked by the insurance industry, which sticks it to anyone who cannot bargain as a group. I assumed $15,000 per year for liability insurance on the van, based on articles I've read featuring interviews with legitimate van operators. This kills them, especially in competition with uninsured car services and vans. My car insures for $1620, even though its in Brooklyn. But I also assumed that health insurance could be had for about the cost of my wife's plan. That clearly is not true. That's why I suggest allowing legitimate operators to buy into the TA plan, or the city plan.
It may be that the high cost of insurance is the real problem here -- the doctors and lawyers strike again!
It seems that bus (and van) services in many parts of the non-rich world are private. That is certainly the case, for example, in Buenos Aires. My guess is that subways are government built because only the government can raise the capital. One the government starts to run something, it is bound to lose money.
One thing is for sure: making all the vans illegal by refusing to issue permits to those who meet requirements reduces the legitimacy of enforcement. The vans which do not meet requirements can hide behind that. It's the same thing with our zoning -- thousands of no-harm businesses are illegal where they are located (for reasons lost in time) but most just open anyway. Only honest people who call up and ask what the rules are get screwed. (Did you know that every one of those children's play centers is illegal anywhere in the city?) That's NYC.
Aside from insurance, where are the cost savings? Wages would be lower for sure. A family wage of $40,000, even with the use of a private vehicle for sure, is lower than the average TA worker earns. But it is also more than the average family in the city earns. You'd also eliminate down-time -- the self-employed are not paid when there is nothing to do. The TA has to run empty buses, if that's what the schedule says, while the private vans adjust to demand. As long as it is understood what is being subsidized and why, I see no reason to stop unsubsidized services.
From what I have read on SUBTALK the vans are offering better service at lower prices. The MTA has almost a Public Transportation monopoly in the NY metropolitan area. They have access to capital and the services of transit professionals. Are they afraid of competition? Maybe it will inspire MTA to offer better service, They could start by offering seamless service between their various bus, subway and regional rail divisions.
I, too, will side with the van service. Out here in Staten Island, there are some neighborhoods that are so under-served by buses it is unbelievable. The vans provide a necessary service to the people in these areas, can usually be found at all times of the day and night, 7 days a week, and actually make the connection with the ferry better than the scheduled bus service.
About once a year, TA Enforcement comes out and harasses the people using this service and forcing them to use the bus. The last time I saw it, there were 50+ people waiting at ONE stop for a bus that ran once every half hour during RUSH hour. When the bus did finally arrive, it was already full and bypassed the stop ( and the next three). That morning there were over 400 people who were very late for late for work, because they were forced to ride a near non-existent bus service instead of the more reliable van service. One would have thought that if they were going to enforce the rules, they would have had the needed service readily available. The next day, those 400 people were right back in the vans.
You know, the TWU and MTA have managed to block the issuence of permits to private vans, making it impossible to operate a legal van service.
Meanwhile, private bus companies get a rule in place that transit authorities cannot offer charters, depriving the MTA of revenue and perhaps TWU drivers of a nice source of overtime income.
Transit must compete with auto use, which is flexible. Why all these rules to make transit less flexible?
I am interested in NYC subway layout. Any info,ideas,websites
of suppliers or people who have done such a project already
would really be appreciated.
As far as I know, my page at http://www.iop.com/~patv/railraod.html is the only subway related model page and I have only parts on my bench so far. Other folks have some layouts but they're not on the web AFAIK.
I currently have some el structures and I'm in the process of updating my web site with information about the work I've done. It involves resin castings and I need to scan some photos for the update.
If there's any other information you'd like, send me email and I may be able to help.
Back in the'80's I saw a film on cable about subway graffiti artists. It is not Style Wars or Beat Street...I have seen those too. In this film rival groups go tothe various yards at night and compete with their "art" on the subway cars, one young kid wins the competition.
Can anyone help me with th name of this film?
I don't remember the title of this film, but is this the one where the kid who wins the the competition befriends a cop who catches him doing graffiti in the subway yard. Later on the cop gets killed after the two meet at a coffee shop by a member of the rival gang.
Yes, that sounds like it. If you can find out the title I'd appreciate it. Thanks!
It is my understanding that the colored stripes (sometimes bearing geometric symbols), that appear under the numbers of the various cars, identify various modifications made to the equipment.
On last week's nostalgia trip I noticed about 50% of the "L" lines equipment was carrying a red bar containing a black diamond.
Can anyone point me to a decode for these markings?
I thought(and i could be wrong) that those markings were a symbol of what yard the car belongs to...ex...all cars that are on the 6 line have a yellow stripe(Parkchester yard),4 train has a orange/red stripe(Bedford Pk yard)7 train purple(corona yard)....Does anyone know if im right?
Tom:
Could it vary with Division?
The "L" train markings I saw were mixed within the same train.
You are right as far as the A (IRT) division is concerned. On the B division the colored stripes and other symbols are applied when cars get some type of modification.
As far as the IRT goes, You're right the stripes indicate which yard the trains are assigned to. I remember when the R-44's were striped to indicate if they were modified from the P-wire system they had a few years back. As for the L trains, I think it's to differenciate between the Sumiotomo rebuilts and the Coney Island ones.
As far as the IRT goes, You're right the stripes indicate which yard the trains are assigned to. I remember when the R-44's were striped to indicate if they were modified from the P-wire system they had a few years back. As for the L trains, I think it's to differenciate between the Sumiotomo/Morrison-Knudsen rebuilts and the Coney Island ones.
To put it simply, colors under the number boards on IRT cars do denote the yard that the cars are assigned to. In both IRT and IND/BMT colored geometric shapes denote specific modifications. On the R-44s, there was never a stripe to indicate that P-Wire had been removed. P-Wire was removed during overhaul so the absence of the Blue belly-band and the presence of Luminator Side Signs indicated P-Wire had been removed.
Now, here's a tricky one. Coney Island R-68s have a red stripe under the number board and Concourse R-68s have a green stripe on the side-sill. What do they indicate?
Steve- here's a question for you: Some of the R68/A cars have a red strip[e at the threshold of the door (the edge of the threshold). why is that there?
That's only on Concourse R-68s. It was put there for 2 reasons. First for customer safety, to help prevent tripping when people are boarding. Second is to identify where the cars are striking the new platform edge boards. Those new resin boards do an incredible amount of damage when the train hit them and it makes it easier to identify the problem and correct it.
Let's go back a few years further (around 1986) when the R-44's started to get cleaned up and fixed up. 207st used different color tapes to identify mods to the R-44 prior to the side luminator sign install. The first GE Rebuilt R-38's didn't roll out till 1987.
i think those colored markers on car number signs are connected to what ever modifications are done with a particular car or fleet maybe even in relation to what ever shop did the work.
I am writing a college paper on Subway Art and would be greatful to anyone who could share interesting history/stories or sightings with me. I have approacehd my paper from three angles -the history of graffiti in the subway system - on walls and trains; current trends and for an alternate angle - Keith Haring from subway to the gallery - is there a loss of potency here?
Any opinions or information would be greatly appreciated. Responses can also be sent to my email at juliefrank@hotmail.com
Try these sites for information about sponsored art in transit There are more projects out there too.
Vandals paint cars and stations but it is not usually regarded as art.
Check out these pages
http://www.fta.dot.gov/transcity/trans/artgal.html
http://www.fta.dot.gov/library/program/art/index.html
http://www.fta.dot.gov/library/program/art/art.html
There is a section of this site that talks about graffiti, look for "Art Crimes" in the Current Operations section.
I don't know if you want to use this, but in Philadelphia's 15th Street station the walls are plastered with larger-than life photos of people(obviously from the '70's) and life in Center City. There are a couple of such photos on a few M-3's(the old el cars). My favorite is the one with the man with the Gilligan hat and the 9 pretzels. It's a little freaky. Of course the stops in the tunnel can sometimes be nice to look at. I recommend the following stations on the El:
40th, 15th, 11th(watch for the bums), 5th and 2nd. Some of the re-vamped Frankford El stations are nice but really only Margaret/Orthodox(Arrot Terminal) holds it's weight.
The Friday, May 1, 1998, New York Times Weekend/Fine Arts section had an expansive article titled *Next Stop, Murals; Change Here for Uptown Sculpture*.
The author explains the *one percent for the arts program* and how it relates to the New York City Subway. Over 60 stations have some kind of art installed; the article describes some of them. Also included was a subway map, showing some examples of art at selected stations.
I saw the article in the print version of the Times; you sould be able to find a copy at your local university library.
Hope this helps.
I have two items for you; First, I believe you may be missing an opportunity to compare the real works of art in subway systems around the world, like Moscow and Budapest. At this website we are all guilty of immediately translating the term "Subway Art" as a euphemisim for Grafitti. You are free to NOT make that rash judgement in writing your paper. Second, if you want to stick to describing the ranges of talent posessed by vandals, here is an anecdote from 1962, well before grafitti became widespread. I was waiting to change trains on the A line, probably at 145th st. A thirty-something black man approached me and asked me to follow him so he could "show me something" As a resident of East New York, his being black was only a tiny bit of the consideration I gave in deciding he meant me no harm, so I went along. We went to th back side of a staircase to an upper level of the station, and he proceeded to draw on a previously pristine surface a rather attractive line drawing of a woman's face, much in the same style as the street artists I encountered years later along the San Francisco waterfront. I was impressed, he could see that, and it made him very happy. No request for money or anything else occurred, we both went on our way. But in intervening months, for a while, I would go back and check to see if the caricature was still there. It was, at least until 1965, and no other artwork ever joined it during that short period. I have never gotten over how important it was to him that someone witness that HE had drawn this, and that it had impressed me. When the real outbreak of "Writing" spread years later, I had no such warm feelings about it, but I felt I understood one aspect of what went into it. Pride! The taggers substituted logos to identify themselves as opposed to the obviously by then unacceptable practice of inviting a random audience, but the message was the same: "I made this" Not to screw the taxpayer, or spit in the face of authority, but just to display that I have some talent here, not just you guys in suits! Don't read too much into the positive aspects I have shared here; I still despise Grafitti en masse, because it reminds me that we are slowly eroding our civilization in so many ways, through excess. What the man drew for me that day offended nobody, and pleased at least two people. No one needed to scrub it off because it didn't look like Cancer, it was just a pretty face!
On Saturday I rode a Manhattan bound D train and noticed that the two right tracks are the only ones in use. Does anyone know if the TA has plans to bring back service to the two left tracks on the bridge.
Yep, right after the 2nd ave subway is finished....
Isn't that what this whole Manhattan Bridge fiasco is all about. Aren't those the ones that link to the Mystery Canal Street subway we were discussing all last week, that links to the N/R? I think they were put out of commision to prevent flexing. If that happened, you'd have a new sea-level walkway to Brooklyn.
Want to know what could happen? Ever heard of the Tacoma-Narrows Bridge?
So the other side of the bridge doesn't flex.
The bridge is supposedly being overhauled in thirds. The north side tracks, which are used by the B, D, and Q were rebuilt back in the mid-80s when that side of the bridge was closed. All subway traffic was rerouted onto the south side tracks. When the north side reopened, the south side tracks were closed, then briefly reopened in 1990, then closed again. They have been closed ever since. So, to answer your question, no, the south side is not subjected to flexing from subway trains at this time.
Speaking of flexing, I'm sure this was taken into account when the bridge was designed. What was not expected was that the north side of the bridge would be subjected to much more flexing than the south side. This was because the north side tracks were used around the clock as they fed the Broadway line, while the south side tracks were tied into the Nassau Loop and were used only during rush hours. This went on for 52 years, from 1915 to 1967. When the Chrystie St. connection opened in November of 1967, the resulting reconfiguration equalized flexing, as both sets of tracks were now used 24 hours a day, but the damage had already been done.
BTW, the Tacoma Narrows Bridge collapsed as a result of wind-induced oscillation and lack of a proper stiffening truss. If the Manhattan Bridge were to collapse, it would more than likely be the result of metal fatigue.
Were the IRT roadbeds ever converted to IND style concrete embedded ties or are they still full size ties?
That depends on where you're traveling. some roadbed have been adapted to IND type when I last rode the subway back in 93.
That depends on where you're traveling. some roadbed have been adapted to IND type when I last rode the subway back in 93. It was getting more common to see the adapted roadbeds in stretches of the B'way line
Last time I looked, the Lexington Line through midtown was still IRT style roadbed.
Parts of the IRT have been converted. At present, there is a construction on the 7th Ave. IRT express tracks between chambers and 14th st. It looks like most of the express tracks and some of the local has been converted to concrete -embedded ties. It also looks like the TA is working its way south from 14th street.
A number of stations have concrete beds as well, perhaps most of them. I don't want to speculate, but I'm pretty sure that the N.B. 7th Ave. IRT station is concrete, e.g.
I also recall that sort of repairs on the 1/9 above 96th street when I was living there in the late 80's and early 90's, but perhaps the memory plays tricks.
--mhg
In the spirit of David Pirmann's SubTalk, I've added a "Model SubTalk" to my "Modeling the NYC Subway" page at http://www.iop.com/~patv/railroad.html.
Please feel free to stop by and discuss modeling subjects, prototype practices, etc.
Does anybody out in subway land know the status of the new M-4 cars for the Market-Frankford line in Philadelphia? How many are on the property and when regular service will begin? Thanks for any info.
There are approximately 20 on the property. Two six-car trains have been in semi-regular service for a few months. Allegedly more are coming, but don't hold your breath.
If you believe SEPTA, all of the 220 cars will be in service by fall '99 and the Budds will be totally removed from the property, except for two to be kept for work service.
Sorry, wrong E-Mail address given first time.
send to jangreen@chesco.com
Just a few weeks ago, I happened to catch a train of M4's. What a pleasure to ride except the MFSE tracks are pretty bad and cause roughness in the ride.
The P.A. system is great , with a female voice telling you the next station, doors are opening, doors are closing, this is a 69th st. train, etc. On a scale of 1 to 10 I give the M4 cars an 11!
Yep, them M-4's are nice. They have definitely been running a lot more often and i do believe that there are now 3 trains. All El trains run in six car sets and I think that two just arrived on Sunday. Don't be surprised if you find yourself in a technical Q&A session with the person next to you if you're ever on one. I've been in many such conversations and enjoy sharing some knowledge with folks.
Oh, them beautiful M-4 Cars - Food for thought.
How long do you think all the nice-to-have features like the upholstered seats, PA, system to monitor unloading/loading, etc. will last after SEPTA takes over the maintenance of the this equipment?
These items are great when maintained properly, however, these are the items that drive up the cost of rail equipment, thus turning off decision makers who approve the funding. These items also drain $$$’s from already thin maintenance budgets.
I’ve also read in these pages that the track is rough riding. SEPTA has know for over three years these new cars were coming on line. Why didn’t they address the track maintenance issues before this? Will they run the new M-4’s over trackage that will shake apart what has taken ABB three years to produce?
I give it six months to a year. Remember, 69th Street shops couldn’t properly maintain the "no-frills" M-3’s. Does anyone remember a motor dropping off a truck just west of 30th Street?
All everyone says about the tracks is true. Even Slamtrak gives you a smoother ride. I've been on roller-coasters more stable than the stretch between 56th and 60th. I've spilled coffee on myself on the El so many times my skin is stained.
But it has a distinct rhytym to it. I've memorized them. You could almost make an album-Greatest Hits of the Frankford El-side one: Rough ridin' over Market Street:)
The points raised in the last two points are painfully true. SEPTA's track record (no pun intended) with maintenance is not a good one. One need only look at the 400 new Ikarus buses (sorry, 399, one got smashed up by a "bus-jacker" a few weeks back!) and see the effects of SEPTA's maintenance forces. Many of these "talking" buses have been silenced (although I'm not complaining - they get a little irritating after a while) due to the levels of maintenance and repair needed on the "talking" system. And I can't say enough about still illegible electronic dot signs on all buses.
In SEPTA's defense, though, the upcoming replacement of the Market Street el means that it makes little sense to do too much on the track other than keep in in passable condition. As a customer, I would argue otherwise, but financial realities will creep in.
Besides, Jack, you shouldn't be drinking coffee on the El. Pay attention to those "no food or drink" signs! Set a good example. God knows, you'll be among the few...
In this quick-fix, instant oatmeal, work-a-day world, one must find time to take care of physical needs whenever possible. Though I admit, eating and drinking on the train is not so nice, a man's gotta eat:)
NO EATING ON PUBLIC TRANSIT
Just try eating or drinking on the Washington Metro. You stand a good chance of being fined. The other transit authorities should follow this lead.
Secondly, few things are more of a turn off for riders when you must sweep the seats or surrounding floor of chicken bones, burger wrappings, scooped out onions from a sub sandwich, etc. GET THE MESSAGE!
Because of some irresponsible people who feel anyplace public gives them the right to litter, unfortunately, to end the litter you have to end the cause.
NO WAY should there be smoking, eating, drinking or radio/CD playing with earphones that don’t shield the sound from others on PUBLIC TRANSIT.
You sure feel strongly, but I can assure you that no one has ever swept off a seat behind me.
I have seen some disgusting things on the train concerning people's habit of littering on the train. There was a woman who was eating peel-and-eat shrimp on the el. When she got off there was a sizeable pile of shrimp shells on the floor and she made ZERO effort to clean them up. When I stopped her at the door and asked if she would, she said "What do you think janitors are paid for, smart***". Well, I decided to sweep them up on my newspaper(which I never finished reading)
and someone in the next seat offered a hand. Some people are beyond ignorant in this world.
Personally, I would not see a problem with eating or drinking on SEPTA provided that there were places to dispose of trash on the trains/bus. Dont tell me the drivers don't sip coffee or the Operators dont drink soda... I've seen them do this on more than one train. Heck, the other day, a transit cop was talking to a SEPTA employee, and the cop was eating a pretzel. And they were standing under the No drinking, eating, or smoking signs.
Rules are only as good as they are enforced. Speed limit 55. Need I say more?
(Of course, we all take the subways to work, so we dont have that problem ;) )
In London, there used to be (15 years ago) a smoking car on every train in the Underground. It might even still be there. I saw a guy light his cigarette and his whole newspaper caught on fire. He wasn't hurt and I couldn't help laughing to see this whole tabloid paper shoot up in flames. I don't think it made him stop smoking on the Tube, though.
(Speaking of Tube, there was a gross joke on "Friends" Thursday night about "riding the Tube" meaning the train in London vs. something else.)
Oh yes. The viagra express:)
Sorry, Jack, I didn't mean to get you in so much hot water, but I do really hate folks who eat and drink on transit. I also dislike (the most) gum chewers who feel it necessary to leave their sticky remnants behind. I don't agree that trash containers on the vehicles are the solution to this problem. Too many people are pigs and expect that someone will be there to pick up after them.
Lately, the folks with the hot coffee cups are the ones who scare me most. I'm just waiting to get burned...
Aah, people (Yuppies) with their extra-large cup of steaming hot Starbuck’s Coffee are a very scary group on the ‘L’. These perpetrators are lawsuits awaiting to happen! The sad part is the danger doesn’t even enter into their minds when they try to push their way onto crowded trains at rush hour.
Again, ban ALL eating, drinking, smoking and radio playing from public transit. By radio playing I mean those without headphones and those with headphones that don’t seem to keep the noise to the listener.
The 1998 New York Transit Museum Annual Bus Festival will be on Saturday June 20 from 10 A.M. to 4 P.M. on Schermerhorn St. between Boerum Place & Court St. Downtown Brooklyn N.Y. Admission is $5.00 for the general public, $2.00 for Museum Members, Senior Citizens, Children, and MTA employees. Museum and present buses are featured.
Which Train type (ie:r-32 etc.)is referred to as the Lo-V?
Actually,all present NYC subway cars are Lo-V's. This pertains to 32 volt battery circuits in the motormans contoller and conductors door buttons . Simply put the 32 volt battery circuits bring in the 600 volts to the motors, etc. I'm sure Steve or someone else can give a better-technical explination. Those IRT cars were so called Lo-V's because they were the first to use batteries. If you have dead batteries even with 600 volt third rail power on, you have a dead train.
A Low - V uses low voltage controls for everything involved. This differes from a High- V and many trolley cars, which use the line voltage (600) for the controls. This is normally done because you can eleminate the MU controls from the system. I don't think the High - V have automatic acelleration, but I always thought they could MU. The major dissadvantage to the High V system is the fact that collisions and other things can electrocute the motorman. Obviously, 32V control has less of an ability to do that.
The old Hi-Vs on the IRT did run in multiple unit, obviously. The safety factor of the Lo-Vs cannot be ignored. I wouldn't feel too comfortable knowing I've got 600 volts going through the controller, and could get fried in an accident.
Except for the fact that we use 37.5 volts, you are exactly correct. In a Low-V unit, the master controller has just 3 positions. The actual rate of accelleration is controlled by the rate that the group switch box advances through it's numerous positions. The rate that the cam advances is dependent on a logic circuit or by measuring traction motor current. On Hi-V equipment, the 600 volts for the traction motors ran right up to the cab where the motorman controlled the speed of the train by moving the controller handle through 10 (I think) positions.
Naturally the Low-V is more desirable because it is safer. A spilled cup of coffee in the cab of a Hi-V could mean instant tragedy for the motorman. One other item of interest. If you watch a motorman today, to accellerate, he moves the master controller to the 'multiple' position and the car will sequence and accellerate automatically. If the motorman of a Hi-V unit did the same thing, because we use series wound motors, there would be an instant overload and possible explosion.
What is the rate of acceleration for most NYC sybway cars in MPH/Sec??
The nominal rate of accelleration is 3 MPH/Sec. through 25 MPH and then decays due to recent modifications.
Thanks for the info I have allways been impressed how a full train can pull out of the station that fast with that much weight.
When the first IRT line opened in 1904, the original Hi-Vs were designed to permit a fully loaded train to accelerate at 1.25 mph/sec on level track. Today's equipment will easily beat that, I'm sure.
I read somewhere that that would happen with older streetcars which were, in effect, Hi-V cars. If the motorman accelerated too fast; i. e., notched up the controller too quickly, he would cause an overload and trip a breaker or something to that effect (or even burn out a motor).
That would answer my question as to whether Hi-Vs could operate in m. u. with Lo-Vs: I am assuming they could not.
No, LoVs could not MU with HiVs. Another reason was that NYCT HiVs had another feature that the LoVs did not. On HiV equipment, the trolley ran train-line. In other words, if the first contact shoe on the first car was in contact with 600 volts, all cars had 6oo volts. Nice because a train would rarely get 'gapped' in this way but VERY DANGEROUS for the mechanics and shop personnel. The LoVs are not similarly wired. Each car must get it's own 600 volts from the 3rd rail.
John from the way you phrased your question, I get the impression that you are a new subway fan and that the reponses are not really answering your question.
When someone talks about "the Lo-V" cars (Which all cars now are) he is usually referring to those IRT cars used before the unification of the subway system. They did not carry R numbers which refer to a NYC Purchase Contract.
If you search through this site you will find a section called "Historical Operations". If you get to the section "NYC Subway Cars", and then page to the "IRT Pre-unification 1904-1940" photos you will find some photos of the cars we call "The LoVs".
There is nothing wrong with the earlier reponses. I just think that they are not replying to what you really want to know.
You are right, I am a new fan; well, old subway fan,but new to
the information pages here. I've always been facinated by
subways,but never really looked into all the info. because
I only got access to the internet a couple of months ago.
Aside from here the information is alot harder to get,
even from a good library, so needless to say I am in
information heaven now.
Thanks for your response, JOHN
Essentially, all New York subway cars built after 1915 are Lo-Vs. This includes all BMT standards. The pre-unification IRT car roster lists car numbers and Hi-V/Lo-V designaitons. I recall that all 3000-series IRT cars were Hi-Vs. This includes Seashore's #3352 and Shore Line's #3662. The Lo-Vs started somewhere in the 4100s or 4200s, I believe.
The Low-V car numbers were 4515-4554 (Low-V trailers); 4577-4699 (Low-V motors); 4771-4810 (Low-V motors); 4811-4965 (Low-V trailers); 4966-5301 (Low-V motors); 5303-5402 ( Low-V trailers); 5403-5627 (Low-V motors). All cars except the 5403-5627 order were manufactured by Pullman, the last series by AC&F.
There were earlier orders (Steinway motors and Flivver motors) as well as later orders (Steinway motors and World's Fair motors) that were also low voltage.
Thanks Dave.
I just tried to post a response to your comments about the IMT???? but we seemed to have lost the Subtalk URL up here and it has gone to no mans land.
The jest of it was that paul seemed to be looking for an Identification of the old IND. The map I referenced, in the book I knew he had, is a decent schematic of the IND as I knew it during WWII years. Kramer's book "Building the Independent System" has a station map from before the 40's and therefore excludes the 6th Ave lines.
I just hope paul realizes that even though the city uses the old IND system, the IND lines did not go to Coney before Chrystie St.
{I just hope paul realizes that even though the city uses the old IND system, the IND lines did not go to Coney before Chrystie St.}
READ
I just hope paul realizes that even though the city uses the old IND line identification system, the IND lines did not go to Coney before Chrystie St.
Yes, but D trains started running to Coney Island on the Culver Line when the long-delayed connection from Church Ave. opened on Oct. 30 or 31, 1954.
Agreed Steve
And the Culver wasn't an original IND line.
Incidently, my "Police Record" stems from this time. I was down on Coney Island Beach one raw June Morning with a couple of friends. We had the whole beach to ourselves. We were tossing a ball around (one of those great Pink Spaldings of Stick Ball Fame) when we were nailed for "Playing Ball on the Beach". I remember using the W.8th Station because the Court we had to appear at was down on W.6th I believe. We were Sea Beach or Brighton riders, and this was my first trip down the Culver.
but I wanted to show my friends the view at Smith 9thcoee
That blurb on the bottom was a reference to the trip home. My dad worked for a Maritime Lumber Company at the foot of Court Street, Brooklyn, and he insisted that I report to him as soon as my fine was levied. I remember using the view from Smith/9th as a reason for my friends to accompany me. I knew Dad would have a few choice words over the $10 fine.
I hope you forgive me when I take offense at those that claim the G goes nowhere. Back then it was the GG and Dad always went to work, 14th St Canarsie to Lorimer and then the GG to Smith/9th.
No offense taken. The station at Bedford-Nostrand has always been intriguing with its unused middle track. It's another relic of the IND Phase 2 project which never came to fruition.
I was reading something posted somewhere regarding the south side of the manhattan bridge connecting to the Nassau st loop. the south side of Manhattan br. has always connected the bway bmt n and Q to brooklyn. The north side of bridge connected to the Nassau st cut(if you ride BDQ take a look as you enter or leave Grand st you'll see the cut to the nassau st tunnel) before the chyrstie st connection was complete.
{I was reading something posted somewhere regarding the south side of the manhattan bridge connecting to the Nassau st loop.}
Its True! See "Brakeman's" "Tracks of the New York City Subway." Tan (1st) Edition -Next to the last Page
{the south side of Manhattan br. has always connected the bway bmt n and Q to brooklyn}
Not when they were BMT "Sea Beach" and "Brighton" Expresses.
{The north side of bridge connected to the Nassau st cut(if you ride BDQ take a look as you enter or leave Grand st you'll see the cut to the nassau st tunnel) before the chyrstie st connection was complete.}
Last time I looked Grand Street Station was North of the Manhattan Bridge, and Nassau Street Loop was south. I don't know what cut outs your seeing entering or leaving Grand, but if it was related to the Manhattan Bridge/Nassau Street Loop it certainly must have been an interesting flyover.
Let's get the facts exactly correct.
The original configuration of the Manhattan Bridge tracks (before November 1967) was that the north-side tracks went to Canal Street (two-track Bridge line) station of the Broadway line, and the south-side tracks went to Chambers St. on the Nassau St. line.
In 1967 the north-side tracks were rearranged to go into the new Chrystie St. tunnel leading to Grand St. The south-side tracks were rearranged to connect to the Canal St.-bound tunnel on the Broadway line.
There are now, therefore, two small abandoned sections: the connecting tunnels from the south-side tracks to Chambers St. and the connecting tunnel from the north-side tracks to the Canal St.-bound tracks.
[So it is NOT true that the south-side tracks ALWAYS went to Canal St.]
Thanks Carl
I think we are in agreement
Do you think that Anthony is talking about the remains of the tunnel to Canal when he talks about entering or leaving Grand?
I havent ridden the B D Q through Chrystie St since I left the city in 1959 and only return occasionly
I have tried to spot the now-severed track connections to Canal St. and Chambers St., but to no avail. Once the realignment was implemented, the severed connections were walled off.
north of chambers st on the j/m/z north of station the two tracks facing norths are the former connection to the north side of manhattan brige and now used to layups.
north of chambers st on the j/m/z north of station the two tracks to the right facing north are the former connection to the north side of manhattan brige and now used to layups. The two tracks to the left are to Canal st and Williamsburg bridge
Absolutely!!
if you take a walk along the now used for tranfer connection former n canal st platform from the bway bmt the line curves from under bway under canal st to the SOUTH side of manhattan brige. While the north side (view the now unused portal as you enter and leave Grand st B/D/Q) the portal on the north side of bridge leads over the n tracks at canal st, to the east of the current canal street j/m/z station (wall partition seperating nassau st loop tracks).
PS
Those "Track Maps" are also on this website
See Canal Street - Pre and Post Chrystie
NS/CSX has been selected to operate the North Shore Railroad on Staten
Island, From Cranford Juction, NJ to Arlington and Travis, Staten
Island. The line will serve VISY Paper Recycling plant in Travis, and
the Howland Hook Container Port in Arlington. Additionally, service
will be available to the former Proctor and Gamble Port Ivory facility,
currently vacant, but proposed as the site for a garbage transfer
station.
-Hank
Will they also restore the trackage to St. George? Was that part of the plan to restore passenger service also, on the North Shore? I had that impression from some of the posts here....any word on this
The SIRT covers such a low share of its cost, I doubt the MTA would restore passenger service by choice. The cost per ride would be horrible.
Of course, there is a plan to run freight trains along the line into a freight tunnel, butr you can imagine the NIMBY issues if that ever got serious. Since the freight tunnel is unlikely to be worth anything like its cost in any case, its backers have proposed it as a one-track line across Staten Island and the harbor to cutcosts. That means one train would have to go across, and a half hour later another one could cross in the other direction. Not much capacity for $1 billion. And it would make cross harbor and north shore commuter service impossible.
What are they thinking?
Interesting you mention the cross-Harbor freight tunnel. After a burst of attention a couple of months ago it seems to have retreated into obscurity. Just as well, in my opinion. The whole idea was nothing but an ill-advised and rather desparate job-creation scheme, touted as a cure-all by politicians who were worried about Brooklyn and Queens unemployment rates (as they should be, the current double-digit rates are an obscenity when the national rate is at a 28-year low).
Funny you should mention unemployment, since I have had to write a number of memos on the subject. Remember, unless you are really looking for a job you are not counted as unemployed. In 1988, the city's unemployment rate fell to 5.0 percent, below the national average. But if all those people sitting home on the dole had been counted as employed, the city's unemployment rate would have been 22 percent. Now, with welfare reform, people are being pushed to look for work. The number of city residents with jobs is going up, but the number of city residents still looking for jobs is also going up. This could go on for a long time. At the national average, there would be 600,000 more New Yorkers working or looking for work.
From 1900 (the earliest year I have data for) to 1960s, New Yorkers were more likely to be working than the national average. That changed in the 1960s. Labor force participation 1960 NYC 58 percent US 56. Today NYC 57 percent US 68. It will take more than a rail tunnel to turn that around.
All transportation investements have hit the news and disappeared. What about that airport connection to LaGuardia?
Don't get me wrong, not in my wildest dreams do I think the cross-Harbor freight tunnel could ever bring Brooklyn unemployment down to Sunbelt levels. But the point is, many politicians thought otherwise, maybe because it's something big and dramatic they could emphasize at election time. You are right, the real causes of the unemployment rates are complex and can't be solved by grandiose public works projects.
What were the numbers of the LIRR Turbine/Electric cars?
I was in Penn Station today, and Newsday has sponsored a photo montage through the years of the LIRR. One of the photos shows a LIRR MU-type car, identified as an Mx electric. The car has an end sign that reads 'TURBINE/ELECTRIC', the car has a third rail shoe.
Another photo shows the 'first electric train' entering Ronkonkoma that was electrified, according to the caption, in 1988. (implying the train I am looking at is the first ever electric to stop there) Only one thing. This electric train has a cyclops light, and I KNOW those didn't start showing up until 1996.
So am I wrong, or have I won the game of 'What's wrong with this picture?'
-Hank
You said the key word, Newsday. How much accuracy can you expect from a 'newspaper' that has Les Payne as a managing editor. Not train related but couldn't pass up the opprtunity.
Yeah, the shot of the "first" electric in Ronkonkama is, yes, a recent shot of a mutant M-1...
The shot of the M-3 is...an M-1
The shot of the diesel is...an M-1 (just kidding!!!)
But seriously, the LIRR *DID* in fact, have a number of turbine / electric cars.
I think the first was the "GT-1", which was a Budd Pioneer (?) car, with 2 Garret gas turbines, direct drive (?), much like the RDC was. Pretty good, but sucked fuel.
The "GT-2" (or 3?), was much the same, but was turbine / electric, like a diesel is. This allowed a third rail shoe to be stuck in also, giving it the all-important "electric train" feature. Better, but sucked fuel...
The final was the "GT-4", which was amodified M-1 (!) shell, with disk brakes (?), and *low platform* ability. I think they tested a few different engines, but none worked that well.
Who knows, had it ever become sucessful, the LIRR might have become the only comuter line in the US (World?) to run MU'd gas turbine trains...
There is a brief description of the turbine cars, along with photos, in the book, "Electric Heritage of the Long Island Railroad," by Ron Ziel and John Kraus.
Also a model at the TA Museum, which is how I was knew to ask 'What were the numbers?' instead of 'What the heck is a Turbine-Electric MU?' :) I dind't know there where more than one type. And externally, I can't tell an M1 from an M3, for that matter the only way I know for sure if I'm seeing an LIRR or MNCR MU is if it's a Conn-DOT car with a pan on top. Which M's are which, and where?
I just found an old issue of a magazine called 'Electriclines', Vol I, Iss 7, for Nov-Dec 1988. Has an article on the original LIRR Bi-Levels, Electric MUs, and describes their fate as cars that were a victim of their State of the Art construction, which rotted temselves to death.
-Hank
The M-1s and M-3s can be told apart externally in 3 ways, (aside from the numbers);
First, from the front, the M-3s seem to have an illuminated sign at the top of the engineers vision glass.
Second, from the side, the M-3s have an air intake duct at mid-car on both sides, for the HVAC system. You can see the grill from the outside and the seating inside goes from 3 X 2 to 2 X 1 in the area of the duct.
Third, the M-3s have a much deeper (more diesel locomotive) sounding horn than the M-1s do.
As for the difference between LIRR M-1s and MN M-1s and LIRR M-3s and MN M-3s is that the windows on the MNRR can be opened at the top while LIRR windows are solid glass and can't be opened.
Difference in horn is due to the two trumpet horn used on M3 (Single trumpet used on M1)
Another external difference is the sliding sash (cab and conductor's station) used on M3 vs the drop sash on the M1s.
Viewed in the open, the air ducts for the M3 clean air system (Traction Motor/ MA cooling) are also a giveaway, as is the difference in trucks and contact shoe supports.
It was mentioned on here that the BSS and the NYC Subway have the same track gauge but if you look, it seems that the BSS cars by Kawaski are much narrower than the cars on the NYC Subway. For instance I believe the R32 and R46 seem somewhat wider with more space between down the aisle. Can someone elaborate on this as to if I am correct or not.
You are confusing Pineapples and Turnips. Track gauge has little to do with the width of the car as does the manufacturer of that car. All NYCT cars operate on standard (4' 8 1/2") gauge track. However IRT cars are nominally 18" narrower than BMT/IND cars. This is due to the Tunnel/Station envelope in which they operate. Kawasaki built the R-62s which are 8 1/2' wide and the R-68As which are 10' wide. As for space down the aisle, the R-32 and R-46 have different seating arrangements.
The Broad Street Subway, I believe has cars the same width as IND/BMT cars, though it is possible that they are a bit (6 inches) narrower. The cars may only be 60 foot length cars, so they seem smaller. I can't quite tell.
The MFSE has cars about the width and length of IRT cars, but with a wider track gauge, so that wheels seem barely to fit under the cars.
The BSS cars, the B-4's, are 67 feet long and 10 feet wide which I think are IND/BMT specs and run on the same trackbed specs as does NYC.
The El cars are a little more than 3 feet longer than IRT cars at 55' even for M-3's and 55'2" for the M-4's and are about 8'9" wide with an underruning third rail and the Pensylvania broad gauge of 5' 2 1/4"
PATCO cars are also up to the specs of the BSS and therefore the IND/BMT.
So in conclusion, B-4's and PATCO cars should be able to run in any IND/BMT tunnel or el without difficulty.
Also, what's this I heard about the shoes for the IRT being converted to underrunning. I ran into a subway-buff from NYC on Saturday and they were discussing this. Is it true?
The BSS and the NYC subway have the same gauge and 3rd rail contact. I think the cars for the BSS and the IND/BMT have the same dimensions. How else do you think those SOAC cars were able to travel in the subways of both NYC and Philadelphia. May I also note that the BSS is, up until the ground level stop at Fern Rock, The city's only totally underground train route. Tunnel and platform clearance rae also the same. So when I see a B-4 I think "You know, Jack, that could be an R-68 or an R-44..."
The fact that the Broad Street subway's cars mimic IND/BMT dimensions is not by accident. The BSS initial segment from City Hall to Olney Ave. opened in 1928, concurrent with the construction of BMT Dual Contracts Lines (e.g., 14th Street/Canarsie) and the IND 8th Ave. line, which of course share the same dimensions. No doubt the subway planners in Philly were copying the New York subway dimensions.
Does anyone know why the BSS was not constructed similar to the Market/Frankford (with underrunning third rail and Pennsylvania wide gauge)?
And to the response about IRT shoe convesions to underrunning - cannot be true! Since IRT cars also make yard moves into IND/BMT territory (e.g., Flushing Line cas to Coney Island; all other cars to 207th St. for overhauls), a systemwide conversion would have to be done. Obviously not going to happen.
The Market Street portion of the Market-Frankford line was built by private interests who already had a stake in Philadelphia street railways. The street railways were built to the 5 ft. 2 1/2 in. PA "broad gauge", so it was just natural that the El would be built to the same gauge. When the Frankford Branch was constructed, the "broad gauge" was used because the line was designed to operate in conjunction with the Market Street side. The City of Philadelphia, not PRT, constructed the Frankford Branch of the El.
On the other hand, the Broad Street Subway was built by the City of Philadelphia and leased to the PRT for operation. Thus, the city, having no incentive to use the "broad gauge", constructed the BSS to standard gauge.
I don't know about the under-running vs. over-running third rail. One theory may be - I think the Market Street Elevated Railway Company was built about the same time that the New York Central constructed its under-running third rail system. I don't know if this theory is correct. Maybe someone "out there" can address this issue.
The PA broad is 5' 2 1/4" not 2 1/2".
Jack - thank you for correcting on this.
No, PA broad gauge is actually 5' 2 1/2", with the Philadelphia variation of 5' 2 1/4".
Also, when the City built the Broad Street Subway, it was looking for competition from other potential operators, since the politicians abhorred the "wicked interests" of PRT. Thus, the big railroad in town, the Pennsy, took an acute look at possibly running the City's subway system, which included the Frankford half of the El. Thus, the railroad was pushing for a standard gauge system which would utilize state-of-the-art rapid transit equipment (at the time, it was that of the BMT). It is no surprise that the standards of the Subway are identical to those of the Brooklyn company.
On the underrunning third rail, that was also the state of the art when the Market Street el was being planned at the turn of the century. With much of the line on structure (back then, only the portion east of the Schuylkill River was underground), there was also concern about weather-related problems, hence the decision to use underrunning rather than overrunning third rail.
Here is a hypothetical question --- I know this could never happen (at least in Philly)
Given that SEPTA is replacing the M3s with the M4s, and also is replacing the Market portion of the El; is it possible that it could have saved money in the future by replacing ALL the tracks to Standard Gauge on the MFSE?
I heard one of the reasons that the M4s are taking so long is due to the fact of the original gauge. Would standard gauge trains be cheaper/easier to construct?
The ability for a MFSE to run in the BSS would be wonderful - I often wish that I would be able to get on a "Stadium Special" at 69 th street, stop a few times, say 69 52 40 30 and 15... then ride express to Pattison... that would be quite a service (I dont know if that would be logistically possible even with a standard gauge..)
You would also be able to run additional cars on special service in the event of special functions, i.e. parades, etc.
Except that the city would have to build a connecting tunnel at 15 St or 13 St. under or over the Subway Surface tracks, and right under the busiest intersections in the city and possibly under City Hall. And they would have to regauge the entire Frankford section, and they would have to reposition all the third rail for overrunning. If I were running the system I would not think it worth the trouble. Think how hard it was to build the tunnel from 16 to 11 St. to connect the two commuter railroads into a single "RER" type system. And that was to get rid of an eyesore old railroad station and was built under a straight street that was not exceptionally busy (Filbert St). and was to save on equipment and labor. Adding all these tunnels and new tracks for sports spectators doesn't seem like enough of a reason. But... it would be nice, just expensive.
Ain't I a naysayer??? :-)
A naysayer? Perhaps a realist... =)
Like I said, that was a hypothetical idea I was pondering when I was stalled in the tunnel between 15 and 30; I can tell you that the "We're getting there" slogan was repeated again and again...
I would much prefer the SVRM or the Southstreet plan mentioned on this board somewhere else.
Just a thought
The NY Div of ERA has been publishing Track Maps of the Jamaica El recently.
When I was a child, I remember watching trains (Gates or C-Types) use the curved "Manhattan Junction" Platform.
I would estimate this to have occurred between 1947/1951, probably on a Weekend evening when I was waiting at the West End of the Canarsie Line Platforms for the connecting ride home from a Ball Game at Dexter Park (Elderts Lane, Jamaica Line).
I've always felt that these were Yard moves to the Rockaway Ave Station of the cutback Fulton El from East New York. The timing does not seem to make sense, however.
I've never been able to find a reference to a normal service that would be traveling this route. Does anyone know how this curve platform was used?
Explain, please - what platform at ENY do you mean when you say "the curved platform"?
Do you mean the old platform of the Fulton line or the Canarsie or what?
According to the track plan in the ERA Bulletin, there was a U shaped platform on the south (compass side) of the eastbound Jamaica tracks. The eastbound Jamaica tracks connected to both the Eastbound and westbound (again all compass)Fulton St El.
This suggests that a train coming from the Williamsburg Bridge via Broadway could travel around this platform and head to the Brooklyn Bridge via Fulton.
I understand that an eastbound Lexington would turn onto the eastbound Fulton tracks to get to the eastbound Pitkin Ave structure and Lefferts Blvd. But did any service use this connection to head back west on Fulton. For instance an Eastbound Lexington comes up Myrtle, over Grand, up Lexington, over Broadway and returns to Sands Street or Park Row via Fulton.
As I said, the only suggestions I have for the movements I seen in the late 1940's was yard moves to the western end of the Fulton El after the removal of the portion west of Rockaway Ave.
This length of this former curved platform between Broadway and Fulton suggests a regular East on Broadway/ West on Fulton service. My question is "Does anyone know of such a service"
Aevene onnegogiaten busi
Marty, you are almost certainly referring to maps of the early "Manhattan" Junction with it's various loop track arrangements, before it was rebuilt as Broadway Junction in the Dual Contracts Project.
Compare with the maps you can find here at the site...
The maps are dated 1912.
The stations on the Broadway, except for the Junction are island platforms.
The one station shown on Fulton is also island. This curved platform serves as the eastbound Broadway line platform and a westbound side platform to the Fulton El's island.
I'm beginning to think that the purpose of this U platform was to function as a passenger connection between the stations of the two lines. No one has yet to offer any info about a service that went east on Broadway and then west on Fulton. Since the trackwork resembles a double (one inside the other) "U" interlaced with a second inverted double "U", its possible that the north half of the platform was used by eastbound Broadway to eastbound Fulton(Atlantic Ave) service and the south portion by westbound Jamaica(Alabama) to westbound Fulton service. Bear in mind that this U shaped platform appears to have been only on the west side of the interlaced double "U" trackwork.
Where can I get a copy of a picture of the trackwork in that area (or preferably, a copy of your map from 1912)?
Koi
The drawings that got me recalling seeing trains negotiating the connection appear on pages 2 and 3 of "The Bulletin - Vol 40 No 12 (Dec 97)" the Monthly Newsletter of the New York Division, Electric Railroaders Association prepared by Bernard Linder.
As Gary Jacobi points out in his 5/11 - 17:47 post, pages 86 and 87 of the book "The Brooklyn Elevated" by J.C.Greller and E.B.Watson published 1987? by N.J.International, has a beautiful map (a magnifying glass helps us 60 year olds appreciate it) of the East New York Area. On page 87, there is even a photo (Feb. 29, 1916-yeah leap year day) of a Lexington Ave El train stopped at the circular platform. Close examination reveals that the curved portion has a pipe railing along its edge which suggests the structure was used as a passageway rather than a station platform.
I've seen trains on this connecting track as late as 1948 (my estimate). My original question concerned the possible normal service use of this trackage.
Your maps are DEFINITELY pre-Dual Contracts - the island platform stations on the B'way line are proof.
This all totally changed by 1920 and so has no possible bearing on what service runs you saw growing up.
I like to think of how nice the world would be if the subways here in Philly were different. World peace?
But seriously, consider this:
SEPTA has spent $286 million on the new M-4 fleet. I don't know how much the 125 B-4's were but I'm sure that was a chunk of change. Wouldn't it save SEPTA some money or at least worry if the whole system were converted(why does it have to be to standard?)to a single dimension instead of two kinds for two cars? Philly subways are like NYC's in that respect.
But of course it won't happen with the M-4's. They'll have to be re-gauged, widened, have the shoes re-outfitted and all kinds of crap, so I guess that one will have to wait to join it's brother and will celebrate life by opening on the same day. I speak of the 2nd Avenue subway.
Ha-Ha
This is nothing new on the CTA. Since the entire current passenger car fleet is compatible it is not unusual to see mixed consists as follows:
Red Line (Howard-Dan Ryan) - high number 2500’s (Boeing 1978-79) are trained with 2600’s (Budd 1981 - 86).
Blue Line (O’Hare-Congress-Douglas) - 2200’s (Budd 1970) are trained with 2600’s. You will never see a train of solid 2200’s in regular service. Why, because these cars are equipped with "blinker" doors, once standard in Chicago, and they can’t accommodate a wheelchair. Thus, always one pair of 2600’s will be trained with the 2200’s to be "handicapped accessible".
Purple Line (Evanston shuttle and Downtown) - two pair, 3201 - 3204 (Morrison-Knudson 1992) of cars are "borrowed" from the Orange line to help the car shortage at Howard Street. These four cars, along with the "odd" pair 3457 - 3458, are trained with 2600’s during operation of the Evanston Express service to the LOOP. The odd pair 3457 - 3458 was created from a new car, the 257th on the MK order, and a Budd 2600 whose mate was destroyed previously. The 3458, was re-numbered from its former 2600 number when the pair was united. Sorry, I don’t remember its former number. The 2600 cars used for Evanston are always in the 2800 - 2900 series. They are fitted with transponders for running in the Loop.
The remaining four lines operate with solid consists.
Brown (Ravenswood) Line operates with MK cars numbered 3306 - 3440 and two of the "Skokie" cars that have had the pantographs removed. These are cars 3453 - 3456. This line stables 138 cars at Kimball/Lawrence yard.
Orange (Midway) Line operates with MK cars numbered 3205 - 3305. This is a tight utilization, twelve - eight car trains in rush hour service, with the above mentioned four cars "loaned" to Linden Yard for Evanston service.
Green (Lake-Englewood-East 63rd) Line uses about 140 - 2400’s (Boeing 1978) exclusively in this service. As noted above, the remaining cars of this fleet, numbered in the high 2500’s, are assigned to the Red Line.
Yellow (Skokie) Line can only use the pantograph equipped MK cars numbered 3441 - 3452. As noted above, four of the cars in this sub-fleet have been assigned to the Brown Line.
So, mixed consists are very common in Chicago. This is one advantage of standardization, although in my opinion, is not pleasing to the eye. However, CTA has been somewhat of maverick when in comes to rapid transit operation.
What are transponders?
I think a transponder unit is used to pick the correct route when the trains circle the loop. But, I'm not certain if that is its function or how it works. I don’t know why it would be needed because Tower 12 and 18 are both staffed during the time the Evanston Service operates. There may be someone "out there" who is more familiar with CTA operations and can confirm or deny this.
However, prior to June 1997, when the Purple line when OPTO, the Evanston pool of cars were 2701- 2800 & 3457-3458. These cars were re-assigned to work the Red and Blue Lines because they were not retro fitted for OPTO. The transponder units were transferred to the low numbered 2800's & 2900's for Evanston service as these groups were retro fitted for OPTO.
The 2700's, together with 2659 - 2700 cars, continue to be the only two person cars left. Therefore, they are always in the "middle" of the train - i.e. the third, fourth, fifth and sixth cars of an eight car train.
I think a transponder unit is used to pick the correct route when the trains circle the loop. But, I'm not certain if that is its function or how it works. I don’t know why it would be needed because Tower 12 and 18 are both staffed during the time the Evanston Service operates. There may be someone "out there" who is more familiar with CTA operations and can confirm or deny this.
However, prior to June 1997, when the Purple line when OPTO, the Evanston pool of cars were 2701- 2800 & 3457-3458. These cars were re-assigned to work the Red and Blue Lines because they were not retro fitted for OPTO. The transponder units were transferred to the low numbered 2800's & 2900's for Evanston service as these groups were retro fitted for OPTO.
The 2700's, together with 2659 - 2700 cars, continue to be the only two person cars left. Therefore, they are always in the "middle" of the train - i.e. the third, fourth, fifth and sixth cars of an eight car train.
You have to give CTA credit for sticking to one standard set of car specifications. All series of cars from 2000 (now retired) on can operate together. The 2200s are the only cars left with blinker doors, which were ushered in with the 6000 series PCC-type cars.
BTW, I did see a solid train of 2000s, which also had blinker doors, on the Red line back in 1991, much to my surprise.
Actually, blinker doors on CRT/CTA rapid transit equipment were first employed on the four pre-6000 series PCC cars. These three-unit articulated sets were numbered originally 5001 - 5004. In 1964, they were rebuilt for Skokie Swift service and were renumbered to 51 - 54.
Also, pre-1990, when the 2000's were concentrated on the Red Line, there were occasions when you could catch a "solid consist". Solid consists of 2000's were also in service on the Evanston Express. This was, of course, was before the ADA compliance regulations and before CTA had any handicapped accessible stations.
I don't recall any 2000 series cars with blinker doors assigned to Evanston
Express service. I think you are confusing w/cars numbered 1-50 which were
recently retired.
Sorry Aaron, but I’m not confused on this issue. I’ve been a ardent fan of the Chicago ‘L’ since my first ride on the Ravenswood Line (PCC’s) back in 1972, and have followed the car service patterns ever since.
All 2000’s had blinker doors and they did serve on the Evanston Express. Pictures exist, some taken by myself, of these cars with Evanston Express Destination signs and also displaying "run numbers" in the 500 series, which are reserved for Evanston trains.
Some background - The 2000’s series were concentrated on the former North - South (Howard - Jackson Park - Englewood) route and stored/service at Howard yard during the period of the mid 1980’s through 1992, prior to creation of Howard - Dan Ryan. During this time the North - South route utilized 2000’s, and the then new 2600’s in mixed consists.
Because some of the trains for the Evanston Express were stored at Howard (as they are today) the 2000’s were indeed used on the Evanston Express service. I rode 2000’s many times in Evanston service during that period.
You are correct in your statement that that single unit PCC’s 1 - 50 also served the Evanston Express. I rode the PCC’s in Evanston Express service many times also.
One last note, the 2000’s began their career’s on the Lake Street ‘L’ in 1964. Lake Street operated around the Loop and returned to Oak Park in those days. The line became the Lake - Dan Ryan in 1969, and the 2000’s, along with the new 2200’s being delivered by the Budd Company at the time, provided the service. The 2000 fleet moved to the North - South Line sometime in the 1980’s, where they stayed until 1992. They finished out their career’s in familiar territory, the newly created Lake - Englewood - Jackson Park route. The last of the cars, barely thirty years of age, were removed from service in December 1994.
I remember riding 2000-series cars on the North-South line in 1982-83. They could be found coupled with 2400-series Boeing-Vertol units back then. There were still a number of 6000-series PCC trains in service, too.
I rode the Evanston Express twice; both times the trains were 6000s. Just as I associate New York's A train with the R-10s, I associate the Evanston Express with the all-steel 4000-series heavyweights. My one regret is I never got to ride them. The last ones were retired in 1973-74, when the Purple line north of Howard was converted from overhead wire to third rail. They sounded distinctively different as they clattered by; I could always tell the difference between the 4000s and 6000s just by listening.
Just a minor correction! The Purple line north of South Blvd. was converted from overhead wire to third rail. I remember as a kid watching the conductor
(or the motorman on one car trains) raising the poles at the station.
> You will never see a train of solid 2200’s in regular service. Why, because
> these cars are equipped with "blinker" doors, once standard in Chicago, and
> they can’t accommodate a wheelchair. Thus, always one pair of 2600’s will be
> trained with the 2200’s to be "handicapped accessible".
Is there any consistency to WHERE in the train the 2600's are placed? It would be kind of pointless if they could show up anywhere, and a passenger in a wheelchair might have to race the length of the platform in her/her chair to find the accessible doors.
BTW, what exactly are "blinker doors"? I'm not familiar with the term. Do they not open unless someone pushes a button? Are they simply blocked by a pole or similar obstruction that won't allow a wheelchair to pass? Why "blinker"?
"Blinker doors" are folding doors made up of four vertical portions about a foot wide (roughly), which indeed have a pole in the middle which narrows the passage. They are opened and closed by the operator (or conductor during rush-hours on the subway routes) like the doors in the other cars. I presume they are called "blinker" doors because they are folding doors and thus opening and closing them rapidly, as when clearing an obstruction, resembles blinking.
Because you can get bumped by them or get loose clothing caught in them if you stand too close when they open, and because they can open if leaned against ("Do Not Lean Against The Doors" is an announcement still heard on the CTA), passengers tend not to like them, and all the later cars have had sliding doors, with no pole inbetween.
Bi fold doors on the "L" cars are not the same as blinker doors
NO, there is no consistency at all, and yes, I’m sure there is confusion and frustration when a train shows up with the one pair of 2600’s positioned as the 7th & 8th car of the train. The conductor or operator are responsible for placement of the "wheelchair bridge". Although I’ve not witnessed any altercations, I’m sure there have been "words" traded between CTA employee’s and those confined to a wheelchair.
While the 2200’s make up only 12% of the rapid transit fleet, they do represent approximately 42% of the current fleet assigned to the Blue Line service. Unfortunately, when these cars were rebuilt in the early 1990’s it was decided not to convert the blinker type doors to sliding type found on all other CTA equipment.
Second question, "BTW, what exactly are "blinker doors"? I'm not familiar with the term." The "blinker" door consists of two paired panels that make up each door. Each pairs’ two panels open, swinging inward towards to interior of the car to allow entrance and exit. Each door pair is separated by a divider inside the car. The blinker door was developed as part of the development of the PCC car. As the door opens inward towards the interior of the car, accidents resulting from riders being struck by outward folding doors were reduced. I’m note sure where the term "blinker" came from, however, it does remind me of the blinking of an eye. As CTA ‘L’ car design in the 1950’s adopted most of the features of the PCC technology, naturally, the blinker door was part of ‘L’ for many years. The CTA abandoned use of this door type when the Boeing-Vertol cars were ordered in 1976. The only major advantage to this type door today is they are a MAJOR discouragement to standing/blocking the doorway. If you are unaware, you could be stuck by the door from the inside.
On the subject of blinker doors, Chicago learned to very frightening lesson back in 1950. A PCC car operating on the 36 - Broadway-State line split a switch at a Southside intersection and struck a gasoline truck. Thirty some persons died in the incident. The story is that many were trapped when they could NOT open the blinker type doors that were standard equipment on the Chicago PCC’s. To this day, all bus and rapid transit vehicles are equipped with an "emergency door knob" which is located above the doorway. By pulling down on the "red ball", a passenger can force the doors open in an emergency. As you may guess, the use of the emergency door opener is abused at times.
Green Hornet (postwar PCC) 7078 hit a gasoline truck at 63rd and State in May of 1950; the resulting blaze killed 33 persons and destroyed the car. If you know where that is, visibility may have contributed to that collision. That's where that long railroad viaduct crosses diagonally over State and 63rd and the Dan Ryan, I believe (of course, the Dan Ryan didn't exist in 1950, nor did the Skyway, which begins at that point). It's possible the motorman and the truck driver didn't see each other, so to speak, until it was too late. Another Green Hornet did split a switch in May of 1949 on the 36 Broadway-State route and derailed, wrapping itself around a pole at the end of the safety island. No one was killed, and the car was rebuilt a year later with parts from 7078, ironically. There are photos of this mishap in Chicago Surface Lines.
Considering that the PCC was a truly state-of-the-art vehicle when it was intruced, it comes as a surprise that emergency devices were overlooked. Unfortunately, sometimes things don't get addressed until someone gets injured or killed.
Thank you Steve B. for filling in the details of the Chicago PCC incidents. I have all the actual facts at home, but I was relying on memory. I’ve been having some trouble with FOG lately, however.
Speaking of the PCC, it truly was a remarkable machine. I was fortunate enough to be able to sample car service in Philadelphia, Boston , Toronto and San Francisco when they were still in their usefulness. The air-cars on the Route 56/Eire-Torresdale were the first cars I rode during late 1950’ early 1960’s. I was in Toronto in 1970. MU operation on QUEEN ST. Those were certainly the days.
>BTW, what exactly are "blinker doors"? I'm not familiar with the term. Do they >not open unless someone pushes a button? Are they simply blocked by a pole >or similar obstruction that won't allow a wheelchair to pass? Why "blinker"?
I know what they are. Not quite sure I can verbally describe them.
I think your best bet at seeing them is to look through two books written by Schneider and Carlson about PCC's.
"PCC from Coast to Coast " or "PCC the Car That Fought Back"
Blinker or non-Blinker was a distinguishing characteristic.
Think of a Door of 4 vertical Panels, numbered from left to right 1,2,3,&4.
In a folding Door 1 is connected to 2, and 3 is connected to 4. When the door opens 1 & 2 fold to the left of the opening and 3 & 4 fold to the right leaving a clear passageway.
In a Blinker door the connections between 1 & 2 and 3 & 4 are usually replaced by a connection between 2 & 3. as a result when the door opens panel one goes to the left, panel 4 goes to the right, panel 2 goes to the right and panel 3 goes to the left. As a result, you now have two smaller openings, with 2 and 3 folded back right in the middle of what should be the larger total opening.
Any other with greater verbal skills feel free to hack this to pieces.
BTW The panels fold inward, leaving nothing pertruding outside the car body. I think this is where the term blinker comes from. Its like blinking your eyes. The lid does not pertrude from your face.
Interesting Blinker Door facts:
Capital Transit converted all their PCC's with blinker doors to outward folding after the 1950 Chicago disaster.
Baltimore Transit left the blinkers on the original St. Louis built cars, except for 7017, which received outward folding front doors after an accident in 1951. The Pullmans always had outward folding wood doors.
Toronto received cars with blinker doors with the purchase of the Cleveland PCC's. They were converted to the standard Toronto outward folding, but pictures of both the Pullman's and the ex-St. Louis cars in TTC paint with the blinker doors (and no MU equipment). The Cincinati cars were converted as soon as they arrived.
Oddity - when GM was introducing the Fishbowl design, the brochures listng the wonderful new features included a description of the front doors as "slide-glide" when in reality they were just a single blinker door.
The GM fishbowl door works differently than a blinker door. The inside of the door opens inward and the front moves off to the side. You can stand on the bottom step and open a GM door the blinker door would not open since they were hinged a the outside and opened inward like opening a frech door from the inside. If there is no air on a GM door you push outward on the center it will open. several school bus companies had non folding outward opening doors theat were dubbed pannic free doors since you would not get trapped behind and block them from opening as happened in the Chicago incident.
I did some checking and Chicago does referr to their doors as blinker doors. They are different in the way they operate than the first PCC blinker doors that opened inward like french doors. The revised operators are much safer. I think the GM distinction of "slide glide" may have been to get around the bad image of the term blinker door.
You're correct. Just one additional clarification - the reason why blinker doors are non-ADA compliant is because there is a vertical bar in the middle of the door opening betweem panels 2 and 3. This bar effectively cuts the doorway into two narrow halves that cannot accommodate wheelchairs.
The early PCC cars all had blinker doors. CTA's 6000 series El cars were largely constructed from PCC car components available when CTA scrapped its large PCC fleet in the mid 1950's - no doubt that is why CTA was unique for years in its use of blinker doors on high platforn rapid transit equipment.
Only the postwar Green Hornet PCCs in Chicago were cannibalized for components used in building the 6000-series L cars. There were 83 prewar PCCs ordered by CSL which were dubbed Blue Geese; (they also had blinker doors, BTW) except for one car - #4021, which is at the Illinois Railway Museum, but does not run - all were scrapped. Of the 600 Green Hornets, 570 had their innards recycled into L cars 6201-6770 and 1-50 from 1952 to 1959. (L cars 6001-6200 were built from all-new components.) One car, #4391, survives intact at the Illinois Railway Museum, and it runs. As was mentioned the other day, car 7078 was destroyed in 1950 when it hit a gasoline truck and caught on fire, another car (I'll have to look up the number) was wrecked in 1949 when it went through an open switch and derailed; it was rebuilt with parts from 7078 and was ultimately scrapped. The remaining cars were scrapped without salvaging any components.
My one regret is that I'm too young to remember streetcars in Chicago. By the time I was born, there were only two lines still running, weekdays only, and by June 21, 1958, the streetcar was history in the Windy City.
The Green Hornet which derailed and was rebuilt was #7205. It happened at State & Root Sts. on July 17, 1949.
I know the kind of doors you are talking about, I just didn't know the name for them. I'm still not clear on why they are called "blinker" doors. They used to have them on the buses that were run by Surface Transit, Inc. (predecessor of MabSTOA) in the Bronx. Exit doors were "step down to open" - when someone stepped into the stairwell for the exit doors, they would open (if the bus was stopped), then automatically close behind him/her after he/she got off. Then in around 1960 the new buses on the Bx12 instead had non-folding exit doors marked "safety exit doors - touch handle to open" or something like that. They never opened when "touched" as far as I could tell, you just had to hold them open, like you do on most of today's buses.
Quick question: Do they run multi-car PCC's on the Newark City Subway during rush hours?
The cars purchased by Public Service Coordinated Transit, for runner of NJ Transit, were never fitted with MU equipment as far as I know. I don't remember seeing any pictures of cars with couplers.
I don't think they have a need for MU, because the last Route # 7 timetable I saw, maybe 10 years ago, showed a headway of every 2 - 5 minutes during th rush hour.
The cars, standard PCC all-electric models, were purchased second hand from Minneapolis/St. Paul in 1954.
I love PCC's as much as those folks in Kennebunkport, but will they be replaced any time in the near future with more modern LRV's?
The PCCs on the Newark Subway are slated to be replaced next year. They will be missed, I'm sure, but spare parts are getting harder to come by. They will turn 50 this year, believe it or not.
Too bad about the PCCs. Where will they be going?
I suspect that when the PCC's are finally "retired", NJT will hold on to a couple for historical purposes, several will go to museums (who could resist a almost pampered PCC?) and SF Muni will buy any not already snapped up to add to the F line fleet.
Betcha.
Granted, Newark's PCCs have been immaculately maintained. I doubt if they're going to wind up anywhere except in museums or the scrap heap. If San Francisco buys them for Market St. service, they'll have to be rebuilt, as their axles are just holding on. Besides, MUNI already has one PCC done up in Newark livery.
From what I have heard in the past (not too distant, at that), in a few years New Jersey Transit will replace the PCC streetcars now in operation, with new LRVs that will also service the Newark City Subway extension to the City of Elizabeth, New Jersey.
There are also plans to extend the subway in the other direction, from Franklin Avenue to Belleville and Bloomfield, although these plans are still in the planning phase, and God knows when they will begin construction.
I will stand by my "betcha" about MUNI since it is obvious that F line traffic is growing so fast that they're buying 8 Peter Witts from Milan to add to the PCC Fleet, so picking up the Newark cars is not a stretch. They spent 600+K on the Philly cars , so the Newark cars that don't get preserved just might go West. They threw away their original fleet by putting them on a pier, so anybody's available PCC's just replaced what they had from 1949 on.
We'll just have to wait and see.
As I recall, their PCCs were falling apart by the time LRVs started running in the Market St. subway 7 days a week. I rode the J line in June of 1981, just before it started running in the subway, and the PCC headed toward East Bay Terminal died somewhere on Market St. It had to "dump its load", myself included, and was towed back to the barn. Needless to say, my first streetcar ride on a PCC was a memorable one.
Well, whoever gets them will be lucky. When will the transition be made, and will it be tied to an expansion of the system or a hookup with another light rail line?
Apparently soon. On NJT's web site there was a notice about a 10 weekend no service due to installing of concrete base for caternary supports and new crossovers.
This past weekend, D train service operated with split service from Coney Island to West 4th St and West 4th to 205 St Bronx. Northbound pax had to detrain lower level at west 4th and go upstairs to continue their trip (same in reverse southbound).
Why couldn't D trains run through West 4th, switching to the upper/lower level, what's the track layout that prevented this (assuming travel north of West 4th on the 8th Ave line)?
I know southbound trains stop at the upperlevel of west4th can switch to 6th ave and rejoin at Broadway/Laffette. Would this caused to much money in maned towers?? What were the cost of 4 platform conductors just on the upper level to insure an empty train before they turned it?
If I remember my layout of the W4th St. interlocking, trains can only switch from 6th Ave. to 8th Ave. and vice versa south of the station and only from the local tracks. Hence, A D coming south on 8th Ave would end up on the F line when switched to 6th Ave. At the same time, a D coming north, across the bridge will not be able to get to the 8th Avenue line. Hence, the need for split service.
No, there is a switch that will allow trains from the bridge to access the connection to 8th Av, but only northbound. They split the service because you can't do it both ways. Why there is no switch southbound, I do not know, but old track maps show there once was.
The JFK Express used that connection: it swithed from the 6th Ave. local track to the 8th Ave. local track going southbound and vice versa northbound. If I'm not mistaken, E trains used to run via Houston St. from 8th Ave. and D or F trains used to terminate at Hudson Terminal (WTC today). My 1948 IND map shows these service patterns. It may have been possible to switch back and forth to and from either branch in both directions at one time. BTW, R-9 #1689 at the Shore Line Museum has E/8th Ave.- Houston signs on its roller curtains, both in the bulkhead and side route signs. My sign box has the Houston St. designation for the D and F routes (but not for the E), as well as the plain old 6th Ave. designation.
Does anyone know why C train service was out this past weekend (May 2 & 3)? Was it related to the D train outage described in this message? What trains covered the local stations on Central Park West/8th Ave north of 59th St.?
I boarded at the West 4th st. station towards 10pm and was told by transit workers to board the A train on the local track thi past weekend. Apparently, D trains were terminating at West 4th using the express track whereas the A and D lines were using the local tracks. Maybe the A line was running local in all of Manhattan during that weekend.
-Garfield
The D that I boarded at 125th on Sunday ran on the local track along Central Park West, then switched to the express platform at Columbus Circle, where it was met after about a minute by an A train on the local platform (which might have come from 125th as an express?) The D continued as an Eighth Avenue express and the A as local to West 4.
All of this was occuring due to track work at the 53rd/7th Ave. station on the downtown D (this is my "home" station for WCBS radio :-). Uptown Ds were unaffected.
I didn't watch "The Long Island Incident" on NBC yesterday, but there was an ad for it in the TV guide that comes in the Chicago Sun-Times. The summary referred to it as a shooting on a "rush-hour subway train"! But that's not the topper. They had a one-page ad for the show, and it showed the front of a train -- clearly a CTA subway train!!! I admittedly don't remember the model numbers, but its the model with sliding doors and the red-white-and blue stripes around the middle of the car, with plain steel below and black enameled steel above. They must have remembered that the Long Island Rail Road is a commuter line, because they whited out the third rail in the picture -- not realizing that the LIRR also runs on third rail!
The Chicago Tribune Weekly TV paper carried the same ad. It shows a straight forward view of a 2600 series (Budd 1981 - 86) car. As the picture was fuzzy, I couldn't make out the destination sign or run number. However, I think it was car number 2971.
I wasn't aware the CTA was loaning equipment to the LIRR. I'm only joking.
After being shipped from Red Lion, PA, the farest point east this car has ever gotten is University Ave in Jackson Park. This part of the 'L' structure has since been torn down.
I noticed this too in the TV Weekly for the Philly Inkie. I wondered were they trying to fool us buffs out there. But in all fairness to them, as accurate as they fail to be sometimes, movie-makers go for the simple description unless it involves explosions, guns or sex.
Did they use a CTA car or a SEPTA car in the Inquirer ad, and if a SEPTA car, which one?
They used the Budd CTA cars. If they used an M-3 than I would really be upset. They can't run on the LIRR. Nothing but El cars can run on the El and no El car can run on anything else on Earth! They're special:)
Then the ad must have been prepared by the network for distribution through the local stations to the newspapers. I had thought that the ad was prepared at WMAQ (Chicago NBC) and there the error lay. I guess not. But shouldn't the network people, living in the New York suburbs, know what isn't an LIRR train when they see it? (^:
Here's a stereotype:
The network higher-ups don't know about the LIRR because they all live in Greenwich and Stamford, Connecticut. And the producer of the show, La Barbra, probably hasn't been on the LIRR since she graduated from Erasmus Hall HS (my alma mater, too) in 1959. :-) (I hope no offense to Streisand lovers.)
But seriously, the publicists probably just went to the clip art files and found a good looking rail car and decided it's enough. Or maybe that's the train they showed in the film itself. It is pretty strange when millions of photos of commuter trains exist.
The ad ran in the Sunday New York Times as well, with the CTA car. How sloppy!!!
I get the feeling that most movie producers assume the average Joe Moviegoer won't know the difference, or couldn't care less, or has never been to New York (or Chicago) and ridden a subway train or the LIRR in this case. Of course, back in the good old days, all you would get was stock footage, plus maybe a studio mockup of a subway car.
I stopped watching it in the first 15 minutes. What I saw was Penn Station portrayed without raised platforms and the train in question was made up of cars clearly not LIRR equipment. Now I'm not a fanatic for details but if you are making a movie about an incident where the LIRR is a central chaharter, then how hard would it be to film on the LIRR?
As for the rest, it seems that the movie is being called a political statement by the anti-gun forces. I guess that the makers thought that the political aspects would obscure the technical aspects of the movie
I think the movie was filmed in Toronto (much lower costs than in the US; that's why X-Files and Millenieum are filmed there) so I assume they were using VIA or other Canadian commuter equipment.
I strongly suspect that the LIRR, and its father MTA, would like to forget the whole affair. There has been quite a bit of talk about the "Legal System" in these posts.
I bet the legal department would have recommended that Babs be refused co-operation even if she asked.
My wife of 33 years thinks that I'm going to be killed riding the rails with all you NUTS. It isn't the kind of publicity a company appreciates.
Heh...that probbly explains a LOT of why the equipment wasn't LIRR (hey, wasn't that a F-40 diesel pulling the train...) Thought I don't know why they couldn't have dropped in SOME footage of the LIRR, just to make the movies seem totally not fake...
But then again, the people who did this film probbly never saw an LIRR train in their life. NBC once did a story on the subways, and for footage, showed a NEW HAVEN LINE train, pulling into the end of the line at GCT, with a caption "Columbus Circle" under it. Nevermind that CC isn't even a terminal, but seriously, when the train even says "Metro-North Commuter Railroad", has the power bulge on the roof, are we REALLY supposed to bewlieve it's a subway car???? God knows all of the NY metro area knows what the heck a subway car looks like...
The MTA doesn't like its company assets shown in a negative light, which could explain why we haven't been seeing NY equipment in movies where NY equipment is a central part of the movie. Money Train is an exception because the R30 cars were bought for scrap and the movie company (paramount?) owned the cars and could do as they please. The same was true for Die Hard III. You'll note that the movie Ghost had many a scene in the NY subway where R32s could plainly be seen. Ghost didn't portray the NY subway in a negative light. Based on this, the MTA would not be willing to loan an M-1 for use in the movie. I suppose the movie producers got what they could. It may also explain the errors in the ads for the movie.
--Mark
Was that in the lower level IND 42nd Street station? The sign said "42nd Street" and the station was a single wall platform and a single track.
For the scene where Vincent Schiavelli teaches Patrick Swayze how to affect physical matter, yes, I'm pretty sure that was the lower level of 42nd Street (clean, no? 8-)). I think they may have also used it in Crocodile Dundee 2, but my memory is fuzzy, it could have been Hoyt-Shermerhorn.
Hoyt-Schermerhorn was used in Crocodile Dundee 2. Amazingly, the placards on the pillars actually said "Hoyt"! On top of that, they even used an A train of R-38s.
I still wonder if the lower level at 42nd was used in the original Pelham 1-2-3. They may have used Court St. (before it became the Transit Museum) in the Grand Central sequence where Mr. Mattson gets off and leaves Conductor Carmody on his own.
That scene from "Pelham 1 2 3" was reportedly done at the Court Street station. Now:
[ ] Where was the 'foot-chase' scene from "NightHawks" done?
[ ] Where was the final scene from "Mr. Wonderful" shot?
[ ] Where was the subway footage in the "Lost World" shot?
[ ] Where was the Car/Train chase sequence in "The French Connection"
shot?
[ ] What line served as the backdrop in the opening sequence in the
film, "Kiss of Death"?
The car/train chase in The French Connections was done in Brooklyn under the West End (B) elevated along 86th Street and New Utrecht Ave. There were also station scenes shot at Bay 50th Street and 25th Avenue Stations.
I don't know about the other films. Hopefully other folks can help.
I'd always heard the French Connection was shot under the Culver on McDonald Avenue. Did you see something that makes you sure?
The French Connection scenes were definately filmed on the B line as claimed by the other respondent. I'm absolutely sure because I rode that line all my (younger) life. I was in grade school at the time, and it was all the buzz in the neighborhood to have such a memorable scene from such a high profile movie filmed in our otherwise forgotten burg.
(Little did we realize that our el's fame was just beginning, what with the opening scene of Saturday Night Fever to take place in the shadow of the same tracks.)
Back to the French Connection... If I'm not mistaken, the famous scene of Gene Hackman (gun in hand, at the bottom of the el station stairs) shoot the fleeing criminal in the back (facing camera, at top of stairs) takes place at the 62nd street stop - merely one stop away from my (then) home station of 71st Street. Quite a thrill for a seventh-grader.
The Lost World was shot on the lower level of Church Avenue on I believe the 'F' train.
[ ] French Connection was shot on the B line 25th Ave to Bay parkway
[ ] Nighthawks was shot int he 63rd St tunnel while it was uder construction. You can see the connection to the 2nd Ave line in the background.
[ ] Mr. Wonderful was shot at Bergen St. Lower level
[ ] Lost world was filmed at Church Ave Northbound express track
[ ] #7 train at Willets Point was the background for the opening scene in Kiss of Death.
The scene in Nighthawks merges seamlessly from the 63rd St. tunnel to Hoyt-Schermerhorn, where the train of R-1/9s is seen pulling into the station.
It was supposed to represent 57th St. & 7th Ave and then 42nd St & Bway where they got off the train. I'm not sure it was Hoyt Schermerhorn though. Hoyt does not have ramps as depicted in the movie.
You're probably right about 57th St.-7th Ave. to 42nd St.-Broadway. That would explain why there was no visual reference to 49th St. or 47-50th Sts. I always assumed the reference was to 6th Ave. since the train is correctly marked as a B. Here's a question: if they wanted to depict the Broadway line, why didn't they use Times Square signs?
You're definitely right about the absence of ramps at Hoyt-Schermerhorn. The only station I can think of which would have such a staircase as the one Stallone and Williams are seen ascending is 8th Ave. on the L. As for the ramps, the Union Square and Times Square mezzanines are two possibilities.
The station platforms in the movie are definitely those of Hoyt-Schermerhorn. You can see all four platforms, since one of the outside platforms was used during filming. BTW, even though the station was dressed up as 57th, and later, 42nd, you can see a Hoyt-Schermerhorn sign at one point. If you have frame advance on your VCR, go frame by frame in the sequence (with the camera inside the train) where Stallone tries to pry the doors open as the train is pulling out of "57th St." The station sign which appears just as Stallone gets the doors 4-5 inches apart says Hoyt-Schermerhorn. I don't think this counts as a movie goof, since this is next to impossible to see when viewing the movie at normal speed.
Wasn't this restriction on filming MTA equipment put into place because of "The Money Train"? As I recall, it stemmed from at least one incident of someone trying to set fire to a token booth, similar to what happened in the movie. If you look at NY movies around that time and before, you tend to see NY subway cars when the shot called for it.
The movie had footage of President Clinton being interviewed after the incident and he referred to the train as a subway train. I was in North Carolina attending a conference and the newspeople, in referring to the Chuck Heston/Babs shouting match, referred to the train as a subway train.
Did anyone notice that when the train pulled in to Merillon Avenue on the first anniversary of the shooting, the locomotive clearly had VIA on the side? That would make sense since Toronto is a favorite venue for movie shoots these days. Or that mr. McCarthy and his son had to run UPstairs to reach the platform?
We are all purists, and the rest of the country would not know or would not care what was what, so let us keep that in perspective.
Yesterday, I awoke early and decided to take a ride on the Red Line "over the top" via the ‘L’. The re-route of the Red Line (Howard - Dan Ryan) trains has already been discussed here, but I though some of you would enjoy this story.
I caught a train a Belmont about 5:45 am. It was the last two-car train southbound. Up front was the operator and an off-duty operator. At Fullerton a supervisor boarded the train. I was sitting in the front and the supervisor advised the operator of a new rule that wasn’t included in the bulletin for this weekend.
Operate your train not to exceed 25 MPH from North/Halsted S-curve to Chicago/Franklin station.
When asked why the supervisor told us the neighbors of the new and expensive townhouses recently built along the route are complaining about the noise on Sunday morning. I added that I wondered when this was going to happen. And it didn’t take long, because we are into the fifth week of service. Remember, normally there is no service on the Ravenswood from 8 PM on Saturday until 5 AM on Monday morning.
We all had a good laugh. Along the way I offered my guess where the perpetrator(s) may live. What did these people think when they bought their homes. Is the ‘L’ structure there to look at? Again, early morning ‘L’ riders become 2nd class citizens.
Three things of interest. First, the operator didn’t know where the North/Halsted curve was - hum, qualifying on the job. Secondly, as discussed on these pages before, we had to stop to put out a small smoking fire that was smoldering in the guard timber on the unused outside track. The supervisor himself, got down on the right-of-way and used the water from the fire extinguisher carried in all ‘L’ car cabs. I made two round trips between Addison and Cemak and no further events occurred. And last, Red Line now has the Loop to themselves on Sunday morning from 1 AM to 7 AM. Effect April 26th, the Green Line has no owl service and the first Orange Line train doesn’t enter to Loop until after 7 AM also.
Well, I don't know what the deal is, but I went to catch the El this morning and guess what? There was an 'A' train at the station. I don't know why A-B service was on hiatus for two weeks but it's back. Secondly, IO read in the Philadelphia Inquirer yesterday that a new 33-mile light rail line will be constructed between Trenton and Camden NJ(across the Delaware from Philadelphia) and the Camden stop will connect with PATCO. This new light rail line will run on already placed railroad tracks and will use diesel engines instead of the usual overhead electirc wire. There may be a blurb about it at phillynews.com.
In response about the South Jersey light rail line. They have talking about this project for past year, It seems that the state and NJ Transit are commited to building this line. At first all of the towns along the line were in great favor of it. Then of course the nimbys with there I rather be in mu car attitude, got to the politicians and quite a few towns are against the line. So stay tuned it should be interesting.
The recommended portion is the northern leg (Camden to Trenton) where the opposition has not been as strong as on the southern piece (Camden to Glassboro).
Keep in mind that this is the same mentality that fought the so-called "Gamblers Express" NJT service a few years back. There would be carnage at the grade crossings (so far, it hasn't happened). What I found most surprising is the rationale for this - most folks believed that drivers would not obey crossing lights and gates and merely drive around them. This was because of years of conditioning that the only trains using many of the lines in question were slow, infrequent freights (many at walking speed) which posed no challenge to anyone who violated crossing device warnings. The argument was, thus, that people were so conditioned to this behavior that any change would result in catastrophe! Do you believe this?
The only disappointment I have personally with the South Jersey light rail is that it won't be electric. The RegioSprinter diesels will be used, at least initially. This will only give fuel to protestors who will latch onto noise and emissions arguments.
If you ask me, the best station on the Market el is Spring Garden Street. Go to that station on a nice day and you'll see what I mean. First, I find it unique in that it's right in the middle of I-95 and while you're waiting for the train cars, trucks and semis go rushing by at speeds unheard of on subways. Then lokk at the view. To the south the Ben Franklin Bridge and the Delaware(the Camden Aquarium, too). To the west, the skyscrapers of Center City(especially Liberty Place) and the shorter more historic buildings and warehouses. I think it's alot like some NY stations. It even has that yellow "Off-Hours waiting area" sign. I just like it.
I like expressway median-strip transit lines for the opposite reason: while the cars, trucks and semis are waiting (and waiting, and waiting), you go rushing by at speeds unheard of on the rush-hour expressways -- preferably thumbing your nose at the stuck drivers who thought themselves too important to ride the L. (^:
Isn’t it great. It always gives me a good warm fuzzy feeling when I’m riding to Blue Line to O’Hare for $1.50, when numerous passengers in taxicabs and automobiles are stuck in the "60 minute commute to the airport on the Kennedy X-way".
Riding along at 55 - 60 MPH while all those cabs, cars and trucks creep along just confirms for me there is a place in this country for rapid transit that functions well.
What does it for me is Metro-North's New Haven line, where it runs beside I-95 (?) for a while, through Larchmont, etc.
The traffic is either stand still, or going 50 - 60 at most.
You're going more like 85 - 95.
Even when traffic isn't backed up, you're whizzing past cars like they're standing still.
The commute to Stamford sure is damm quick....
I guess I don't fall in the "Spring Garden Fan Club" category. The place always seems too antiseptic and modern to me. I'd rather hang out at 30th St (subway) - no architectural gem like its upstairs cousin, Amtrak's station, but a place to always catch some action with the El and the five subway-surface lines passing through.
My favorite stations are all of the West Philly elevated stations (46th St.
through 63rd St), because even though they have recently been modernized, with
new stairways, stainless steel, etc., they still have some of their original
character, on the exteriors of station shelters, and platform railings. Also,
a few stations on the Frankford elevated still have the original railings, as
well as station entrances.
I stand behind 15th Street. I agree that SG is a great place to wait because there's something to do besides wait. I like 30th because it's one of those special stations-I like it for the same reason I like Clark Street(also because I met Mrs. Jack there). And the WPhilly el stations are great. I'd better get some photos soon, it won't be there much longer. And for those of you who like the M-3's because the front window gives you all that wind-in-the-face, get your fill now. They'll be gone soon and the M-4's don't have that. As much as I like to rag on them, I like the M-3's. When you think about it they're really not so bad. But all things passeth away.
Once I took an Amtrak train over the Hell Gate Bridge. It felt especially good to zip past the point where the toll booths are on the nearby Triboro Bridge without even having to slow down.
It's a little silly, maybe, but it did.
I get the same feeling from the EZ-Pass. It really has made a difference. I used to get the tokens, but there was always some guy parking in the token-only lane, then walking over to buy his or her token. They seem to be more interested in enforcing the EZ-Pass.
Zipping past traffic is the best argument for putting a train to LaGuardia in the BQE right of way, rather than as an extension for the Astoria Line. You want those on the train to look down and see the taxis stuck in traffic. You want those in the taxis to look up and see the train going by. The structure c could be festooned with signs which say "if you took the subway, you'd be at your hotel by now." But the Astoria line makes more sense since you already have ten trains per hour and could expand it to twelve.
Metra has signs like that along the Union Pacific-Northwest line where it parallels the Kennedy Expressway. People joke because some of the most prominent signs ("Is that really the fastest way to work?" and similar rhetorical questions) are near Blue Line stations that they're aimed at much at the subway riders as the expressway drivers.
I'm willing to speculate that we may see signs like that along Santa Fe Dr. in Denver once our light rail extension to Littleton is completed. The line will run along Santa Fe Dr. along virtually the entire length of the extension, and the LRVs will zip along at 55 mph since the ROW will be entirely grade separated. The existing line has three grade crossings, two of which are gate protected.
I Love to ride in on the BETRA north line and see all the cars stopped on the Kennedy while we cruise by. I know exactly what you are saying
You are absolutely right about the Hell's Gate approach from Amtrak into Penn Station thru Queens. Not only do the trains zip past traffic on the highways but we start the trip from an incredibly high altitude.
The Hell's Gate Bridge actually looks down on its vehicular competition. It's higher than the Triboro Bridge so we're looking past the Triboro toward the skyscrapers of Manhattan. Then we start to make our decent toward ground level like an airplane, not a train. We're over stores, houses and side streets, snaking thru Queens.
Eventually we're down to about ground level when we go underground, with a further decent under the East River and Midtown, till we arrive in Penn Station. Quite a ride!
I drive I-95 each day home from work and pass the Spring Garden Station. I am envious of the people riding the el as I sit in traffic. Since I commute to Delaware it is not an option for me. I can't figure out why people would want to drive to center city each day, especially now that there are 3 trains of m-4's in service.
I just purchased "Under the Sidewalks of New York" by Brian Cudahy and noticed an old map of the BMT(whenit was known officially as the BMT) and noticed that it's lines in upper Queens went to Ditmars Blvd(the 'N' of course) and to Main Street in Flushing. Flushing? Last I checked, that was the '7' train, aka an IRT route. Now someone once said that the NYC subways were like this: all numbered lines were IRT, all blue line were IND(which is only half true) and everything else was BMT. Now I know I heard wrong but how wrong?
The BMT and the IRT ran joint service (the BMT used their old elevated cars)
to Astoria and to Flushing.
In 1949, the joint service ended and the Astoria line was adapted for BMT Division usage (the platforms were shaved back to accomodate wider cars).
See pages 113 and 125 in "Under the Sidewalks of New York"
BTW - Until the mid 1960's, the BMT Division also had numbered lines (1 - 17), the letters were introduced at that time. The IND had letters from the start.
Paul. If you find the map that describes the World Fairs Independent Subway you will get a decent idea of what were the original IND lines. As you will read in the book the Chrystie St tunnel resulted in many of the Original IND lines being through routed with former BMT lines, mainly traveling Broadway and going to Coney Island via tunnels or the Manhatten Bridge.
Bear in mind that the line you see going out Fulton Street in Brooklyn on the BMT map is the original BMT (really BRT but you will find out about the Malborne Street Accident that bankrupted them) elevated. The present A line subway to Rockaway and other Queens destinations was an IND line and replaced this El (But used the outer section beyond Grant after rebuilding).
The Queens lines you speak of started as an IRT and BMT joint operation.
The book, "Subway to the World's Fair,"by Frederick A. Kramer, has a picture of the map on page 3 of the book. This is an excellent book describing the construction and operation of the IND, BMT and IRT lines that operated during the 1939-40 World's Fair.
Unless I'm wrong, the easternmost segment of the Fulton St. el was added later; i. e., the part in use today which runs over Liberty Ave out to Lefferts Blvd. Originally, the el ran above Pitkin Ave. after leaving Atlantic Ave. and ended at Grant Ave. This section was never upgraded to handle subway equipment. When it was extended, it swung over to Liberty Ave; this section was built to subway specs right from the start. It was supposed to be extended another 6 miles as part of the IND second system.
Steve.
In "Twelve Historical New York City Street and Transit Maps" there is a 1936 Hagstrom Map that shows the Fulton St Line gonig through Crescent,Grant,Hudson,Boyd, etc to Lefferts. It also clearly shows the Fulton Street Subway terminating at Rockaway Ave, between(Broadway and Saratoga) not Rockaway Blvd.
I remember some construction was necessary to the Platforms. The structure itself, may have been built to a sturdier standard originally.
I also remember "Lexington Ave Brooklyn E" Gate trains, terminated in 1950+/-, with "Lefferts Destinations.
Read:
I also remember "Lexington Ave Brooklyn EL" Gate trains, terminated in 1950+/-, and some "C-Types" with Lefferts Destinations.
Also this same book of maps has a BMT map of 1943
Showing the BMT Elevated between Rockaway Ave and Lefferts with a free transfer to the IND at Rockaway Ave, a la Franklin Shuttle (also shown)l
I think what was being stated 3 posts above about the eastern Fulton St. line (east of Grant Avenue) is that it was built some time after the initial BMT subway was built, rather in than in the late 1800s (like the Myrtle Avenue, 3rd Avenue, etc). So it was built for the future, i.e. to handle heavier cars. The IND was not connected to it until the mid-1950s (look at the underground Grant Avenue station; it is much more modern than the Euclid Avenue station).
But just like the Myrtle Avenue and Brooklyn Lexington Avenue line, the original Fulton St. El (west of Grant Avenue) was built for the very old lightweight El car of the 1890-1910 time frame, and the IND Fulton St. line was meant to replace that obsolete El structure. Apparently the section east of Grant Avenue could take the extra weight, as was posted.
The IND Fulton St. subway was placed in service to Rockaway Ave. in 1936, with a free transfer to the el - at least there was a transfer after the western part of the el was torn down in 1940. Getting back to the subway, the tunnel section had been finished out to Euclid Ave. by 1942, but track and signals had not been installed; the outbreak of WWII put a halt to things. Service was extended to Broadway-East New York in 1946; to Euclid Ave. in November of 1948 (stations along this stretch featured fluorescent lighting), and to Lefferts Blvd via connecting ramp to the Liberty Ave. portion of the Fulton St. el in 1956, at which time the Grant Ave. station opened.
There was more than one Lexington Ave. el service; during rush hours, trains ran to 111th St.- Jamaica Ave, as well as Lefferts Ave. over the previously mentioned segment of the Fulton St. el which ran over Pitkin Ave and could handle only lightweight el cars.
You're all correct. Just to clear up some items - the original Fulton St. El terminated at Grant Ave. ("City Line") from approx. 1889 until 1917. Approx. 1917-18 the extension eastward from Grant Ave. along Liberty Ave to Lefferts Blvd was constructed as part of the Dual Contracts. This newer part was constructed for the heavier weight of steel subway cars, with the expectation that the older Fulton El portions west of Grant Ave. would also be upgraded for subway equipment. Part of that never-built upgrade included the Ashland Place connection which would have allowed Fulton El trains to enter the BMT subway at DeKalb Ave.
The IND subway along Fulton St. of course doomed the Fulton El, and conveniently allowed retention of the portion east (operationally south) of Grant Ave. to be connected to the subway in 1956. This stretch also allowed the LIRR Rockaway Beach line to be spliced onto the A train.
A section of the original Fulton St. el was upgraded to handle steel subway equipment, from Franklin Ave. to Atlantic Ave. or somewhere in between.
Steve
Your definitely correct about this rebuilding. If you have been following my recent posts I'm trying to find information about the Broadway El - Fulton El connections prior to the mid fifties. This weekend I was rereading "The Brooklyn Elevated" by Greller and Watson. Page 64 has photos showing a middle express track and steel platforms at Saratoga Ave. Page 67 shows the Rockaway Ave Station with a wood platform built over the express track to serve as a temporary western Terminal. The NY Div Bulletin map of 1912 suggests that these stations were island platforms serving a 2 track system. So some rebuilding took place sometime after 1912.
You have exactly the tool you need in Greller and Watson, but may not have noticed it! The last third of the books pages use as a background a pre-dual contract track map of the BMT. I wasn't sure until I went through with the task, but Xeroxing all those pages, and taping them together will yield practically the whole map, including the loop at Broadway Junction that allowed trains to come East on Myrtle/Lexington, and then return West to Sands St. via Fulton street. Service to City Line and Cypress Hills required a transfer which proved unpopular, and was discontinued before the Dual Contract work was begun, but I have always believed that the multi-platformed complexity of the Atlantic ave. station had this transfer in mind, especially the now unused center platform, because no matter which way a loop train was running, one of the transfers at Atlantic would involve switching directions, North to Cypress Hills or South to City Line.
I remember being a Rail Road Clerk many years ago on the Franklin shuttle.(I know, I know, I'm showing my age here!) I was often at Dean St. and Botanic Garden Station. During an 8 hour stint, I was lucky if I had 2 fares to report and "bag".
What was amazing to me was the fact that the community could manage to force the NYCTA to keep the line running (albiet however poorly.) The wooden platforms were really decrepit, and the Shuttle had the lowest priority of and train service running.
As a Motorman, I remember being posted on the line- when I asked the M/M that was posting me where to stop the train, he replied "You see that telelphone pole next to the hydrant down there in the street? Bring it up to there!" Yeesh. Talk about awful!
Now, the Shuttle runs as an "OPTO" line (One person Train Operation, and is as notorious as it ever was. However, I do hope the upcoming renovations bode well for the line and area. I just hope that the renovations don't 'modernize' the stations so much that they obliterate their past. I was walking the platform at Franklin St. not long ago, and spied a brass marker imbedded in the station's cement, not to mention the ornate ironwork of long ago... It would be a shame to ruin it just so a contractor can come in and do a cheap, fast (and possibly inferior) job.
I visited Franklin Avenue a few weeks ago, hoping I guess to see it before they did the renovations (wish I had taken more pictures of the old stationhouse, abandoned stairwells, and el structure instead of being afraid of the neighborhood back then. Damn, damn, damn!). Anway, I noticed a series of concrete stubs sticking out along the right of way. They looked like platform foundations. Was the platform originally longer than it is now, or are they extending the platform south because of the new construction?
These cards with the possible exception of the daily will start at 1 minue after midnight on 7/4/1998.
Daily...$4 Weekly.....$17 Monthly...$63 Monthly for Express Bus $120
You can buy them anytime and the clock will not start ticking until first use. The time ends at midnigth. If you start to use a daily at 12 noon, you have 1223 hours left.
The weekly is seven calendar days starting with the day of first use and six more days, here to it ends at midnight. MOnthly works the same way. There will also be $120 Metrocard to be used if you use express bus since the other passes wont be good on express bus service. There will be a feature to prevent sharing of the card by more than one person at one time./ The time ahs not been set at this time.
From your description of the daily card, do you mean that it is a calendar day card rather than a 24 hour card? I would hope that they will make it a 24-hour card, as they do in many European cities, especially since NYC has a real 24-hour-per-day transit system. But I guess that is too much to hope for.
Carl. You have the balance of the day when you first use it. The time expires at Midnight-whether it is daily, Weekly or Monthly. The clock starts at the first swipe. If you buy one, say Auguest 1 and dont use it till September 1 your time starts September 1
Wait a minute: if its a fixed number of says from the first swipe, what is a "monthly" pass? 30 days? Does it vary -- 28 days if you buy in February? Until the same date in the next month -- what if you buy on the 31st?
Should have gone with an off-peak discount instead. At least everyone won't have to get on line on the first of the month, but I can just see the Daily News editorials about how confusing it all is -- useless bureacrats strike again! They'll be calling for a return to paper tickets.
Monthly MetroCards will be valid for 30-day periods beginning with first use.
> You can buy them anytime and the clock will not start ticking until first use.
> The time ends at midnigth. If you start to use a daily at 12 noon, you have
> 1223 hours left.
Wow - that's quite a bargain ... that means if I use my card at 12 noon, I have, let's see, nearly 51 additional days left afterward ... for $4 yet :)
--Mark
>>You can buy them anytime and the clock will not start ticking until
first use. The time ends at midnigth. If you start to use a daily at 12
noon, you have 1223 hours left.<<
1223 hours? That is 50 days and about 23 hours!!!
Are you sure you did not mean 12 hours, 23 minutes?
I assume that ther will be no more passing to a family member/friend
The passing to friends/family is out. There will be passback to prevent sharing. However, if you will not be using the system for the day you can share then,or even if you enter and then hand to someone else who will use it after the passback expires. (The time has not bee ns et at this time.)
Yes- I did mean twelve hours- oh those typos!! IO get fifty lashes with a wet expired Metrocard
When you say that in New York, you won't be able to pass cards from one person to another anymore, does that mean:
1) No free ride -- the second pass-through will result in a full fare being deducted from the card, or
2) No ride at all -- the machine will reject the card if it is passed through a second time?
Because here in Chicago, the Transit Card can be used by multiple passengers: if it's swiped twice within a certain time frame (15 minutes?) a second full fare is deducted from the card balance. You don't save any money by using one card, but it keeps from everyone in a group having to have their own card, and it's handy when traveling with out of town guests or people who don't ride CTA often.
It seems to me that a Daily Pass costing a buck more than a round trip would result in a significant revenue loss - lets say for a family of 3 or 4 traveling together for the day.
Gee the "Warriors" could event travel legitimately as a group between Coney and Van Cortland.
What will hapeen is that the card will be rejected. The message will say:
"just used". In transit talk this is called a "passback". Of course, if you will wait out the interval(to be determined) then it can be used by someone else.
Our regular MetroCards are the same as the Transit Card in Chicago, as far as how they're used is concerned. The major differences are that transfers are free in New York City, and only one transfer (versus two in Chicago) can be made before a new fare is deducted.
Has anyone tried using a MetroCard in Chicago or a Transit Card in New York? I was tempted to try my MetroCard when I was in Chicago in February, but I broke down and bought a Transit Card. I'd still be interested in hearing a report.
A friend of mine from NYC tried his MetroCard in a CTA turnstile and it was returned as invalid. This occurred several months ago.
You wanna hear something? Get a load of this: I boarded an IRT #4 train from the Woodlawn Station (the northern terminus for the #4 line), trying to use a valid MONTHLY EXPRESS pass from Cleveland (and it's valid for May 1998, too) obtained via the mail from the Greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority. The video display at the turnstile merely said in response, "Please swipe again at this turnstile". Go figure.
What you forgot to mention was that riders in possession of a Reduced-Fare MetroCard (like myself) will pay $31.50 for a Monthly MetroCard, and $8.50 for a Weekly MetroCard.
If you know anything about noise in the subway, please send it to Kamal@york.cuny.edu
Thanks.
Um, what exactly do you mean? Noise from trains? And if so, what about them?
It's noisy. Unless you are deaf, in which case you won't hear anything.
That brings up another point: If a subway train passes through a station and nobody is in the station to hear it, does it make noise?
If you want more specific answers, you must provide more specific questions.
This sounds like one of those students who get (or pick) a topic for a paper and think if they post the topic as a totally generic question at the right place on the 'Net, then they will be deluged with all the information they need and will not need to do any research for themselves.
How's this for a deluge of info. It's noisy as hell in the older IRT loacl stations when an express passes and it's quiet as a mouse at the outdoor station in Broad Channel where there is almost nothing to echo the noise. Everything else is somewhere in between. (Isn't he sorry he asked?) :-)
Probably somebody knows the decibel ratings of representative stations. I think it's around 100 to 110 when an IRT express shoots by. I know that I can never talk to my friends when we stand between the cars on hot summer non-airconditioned-car days. When the wheels squeal it feels like my ear-drums are about to burst. When I'm in an air-conditioned IND/BMT car on a fairly smooth track on the Sea Beach or below ground Brighton, it's pretty quiet. And when the train gets stuck on the Manhattan Bridge, it's silent, except for the cursing under people's breath. At 14th St. on the IRT, the recording of the lady who says "Please stand clear of the moving platforms as trains enter and leave the station" is pleasanter (if neither louder nor quieter) than the old recording of the guy who sounded like he had just pulled a big cigar out of his mouth and was about to go out and get a beer. ;-))
I guess I'd better cut the comedy and get back to work....
I always thought it was pretty noisy at 81st and Central Park West when an uptown A train of R-10s would go thundering by. Even D trains of R-1/9s didn't seem to be as loud. On the whole, I feel that today's cars are quieter all around - or maybe it's because they've slowed down somewhat.
If you want loud, ride the Red or Blue lines in Chicago where they run underground. Man, oh man, you have to hold your ears! For starters, the trains are doing around 60, plus the noise has no place to go due to the way the tunnels are built. It doesn't help having poorly insulated cars, either. If ACF could skimp on insulation when they built the R-10s, then Budd followed suit with the 2600s.
Oh boy, is the noise in the Chicago subways bad! You literally cannot hear the person next to you if they scream into your ear. Come to think of it, the noise the trains make on a long speed stretch, like Clark/Lake to Chicago on the Blue, actually sounds somewhat like a long, drawn-out scream. Some people cover their ears or stick their fingers into them, though other people joke that this is a sure sign of an out-of-towner, or at least an infrequent subway passenger. Kids seem to absolutely love it, for some reason.
How exactly does the design of the tunnels contribute to the noise?
It may not be so easy now with OPTO, but if you look out the front window in the Dearborn or State St. subways, you'll notice that each track has its own tunnel tube; each tube is a long, continuous archway, with no side openings. My theory is that the noise doesn't dissipate because it has no place to go. The tunnel acts like a giant echo chamber. Most of New York's subway tunnels have a flat roof, plus you have more than one track per tunnel. This allows noise to dissipate to the sides, instead of being pushed forward. Except for a short stretch on the IRT in northern Manhattan, only the river tunnels have arched, round roofs and individual tubes for each track, and while there is more noise, the sound level doesn't come close to Chicago's. (On that stretch in northern Manhattan, both tracks are in one tunnel, but it has an arched roof.) Add to that, CTA's L cars are partly responsible due to the way they're built. Maybe there's not enough soundproofing. I thought the 2000s were a bit quieter in the subway, and even the 2400s aren't so bad. The 6000s were a racket, and the 2600s are just as bad; I was disappointed with the 2600s in that regard. I wonder how the 3200s would stack up in the subway, and for that matter, I wonder if the old 4000s were noisy down there. Keep in mind that before the 6000s came on the scene, all 4000s were used in the subway.
I femeber riding the 4000's in the subway and the 6000's I don't remember which was louder but the 4000's used to stall like a circuit breaker was out Before they did you would hear a loud pop. Then they were dark. not too bad on the L but it used to freak out my wife when they did it in a tunnel . I think afer a second the battery lights would come on but I don't remember.
I think that speed was/is a contributing factor to noise. The faster the train goes in one of those tunnels, the louder the noise. Even though I never rode the 4000s, much to my regret, I understand they were slower than the 6000s. With that in mind, I would surmise that their noise level didn't approach that of the 6000s.
P. S. I never heard of any 4000s tripping an overload - unless perhaps the motorman attempted to accelerate (peg up the controller) too quickly.
Currently, cars from the 2200, 2400 & 2600 series cars are operating in the Dearborn and State Street Subways in Chicago. While none of cars are particularly quiet, especially on the long runs were the speed approaches 55 MPH, I the find the 2200’s (Budd 1969-70) are the worst offenders. When you get off the train at Clark/Lake after a run from Division your ears will be ringing until you get "upstairs" to catch the Ravenswood Brown Line train.
Maybe they ought to try setting up a sprinkler to sprinkle water on the tracks at the spot where the noise is worst. They have done this to good effect on the City Hall turnaround loop used by the #6 train here in New York; I understand that the screech there used to be truly horrific. I'd also like to see this tried on the #5 line connecting tracks in the Bronx - the ramps south of 149th St. that are used only by the #5, not shared with either the #2 or #4.
Or maybe they already have? It occurs to me that the last few times I rode through there, the noise was not nearly as bad as it had been.
No, we don't use water. What we do is use something called a lubricator. It's simply a supply of grease, kept under pressure. When the wheel flange activates it, a small amount of grease is squirted onto the inner side of the rail to quiet flange noise and reduce wheel wear.
Are these lubricators something that was just recently installed? If so, congratulations, they seem to be working; too bad it took so long to come up with the idea.
Hold the concrats. I learned about them when I first went to work for the TA many years ago. They've been around for a lot longer than I have. Unfortunately, the deferred maintenance of the 70s and 80s was not confined to car equipment alone. Greasers were among the casualties. Today, they are inspected on regular intervals. Now when they run amok, squirting too much grease, we end up with flat wheels.
When are we getting that stuff for SEPTA?! Try riding the El out the tunnel at 2nd to Spring Garden. You'll bring earplugs on your next visit.
When did they get rid of the Union Square guy? How can I get a copy of the old recording?
Here's some more noise
The great and wonderful M-4's(:)) that everyone is talking about really isn't all that much quieter than the M-3's(which, even when outside on the elevated are noisy as hell). What happened to all this "soundproofing"? Want some more? Try the Fairmount station on the BSS. It's not an express stop, so when a train goes zooming by at 60mph, it's gonna hurt!
In New York, try riding between the cars of an IRT express train. The experience is definately not for the un'trained' ear.
I realize that the suggestion to try riding between cars of an IRT train was meant to suggest that the db level was intollerable. However, since someone here might be tempted to try it, I'm here to tell you don't do it. Each year several people fall between the cars of moving trains. What happens to the body is expected. Cut & crushed by the wheels, electrocution via the 3rd rail, crushed by hundreds of tons of unforgiving steel. Often cloths are torn from the body and the remains are sometimes not even recognizable. Let it suffice to say that a speeding IRT train will generate 100 - 120 db. It's not pleasant. Stay inside and enjoy the ride, safely.
I remember vivdly the stickers that used to be on storm doors: "Riding between cars is prohibited!" If I have to pass from one car to another, I try to do so when the train is stopped at a station. I've done it with the train moving along, but one thought remains: one false move, and you're a goner.
All this morbidity!
I know of the stories of people and the scourge of death via the subway. A man I knew commited suicide a few years ago by jumping in front of the BSS. That's not pretty, seeing a body wrapped around an axle.
But heeding the warnings of not traveling between cars is good. I set bad examples(I know) and travel between cars in motion often. It's a common occurance and see it more often when I'm in NYC than here in Philly.
Bottom line-Don't eat on the train, dont lean on the doors and DON'T transfer between cars in motion.
I agree that riding between cars is unwise. Passing between cars, though, can be done safely.
I do pass between cars not infrequently when I'm in the city. I slide open the door with my left hand. While still standing in the doorway, I reach for the handle on the outside of the next car to the right of the door with my right hand. Then, looking down and watching carefully where I step, I step onto the next car with one foot and let the door close behind me. Then I open the door to the next car with my left hand and step into the car.
I wouldn't think of passing between cars without grabbing onto the handle and watching carefully where I step.
While I have ridden and do ride between the cars on occasion, I strongly advise against doing it. My post was just to give an example of the noise level between the cars and NOT an invitation to do so. It is, in fact, considerably unsafe to ride between the cars, but if you want a sample of the noise, I would suggest opening the storm door and standing in the doorway while still inside the car.
On the origional 6000 series cars in Chicago the Conductors position was betewwn cars and then wisely moved inside the cars on the second order and the initial order was modified also
A number of cars in New York also had the conductor's post on the outside: the Hi-Vs, Lo-Vs, BMT Triplex units, the R-1/9s, R-10s, R-11s, R-12s, and R-14s. I wonder if any conductors ever made a wrong move while entering or exiting a car while working the doors. Of course, after the R-12s and R-14s found their way onto the IRT mainline routes, they never ran in solid trains and were positioned in the front or rear section of a train. In this way, they never served as a conductor's station.
As some readers have surely heard, a teenager was killed this past Friday at the City Hall loop, apparently by RUNNING from one car to another as the train took the sharp curve there.
I hope this doesn't cause NYCT to again bar passengers from riding around the loop, but it is a reminder of why extreme care needs to be taken when passing between cars of a moving train, even short IRT cars. It CAN be done safely, but it requires paying careful attention to what you are doing.
P.S. Passing between cars while the train is moving is in fact legal on the NYC subways, although RIDING between cars is illegal. On the PATH, though, passing between cars while the train is moving is actually illegal. Is this because the PATH tunnels have even sharper curves, because of larger gaps between cars, or simply because of a different attitude on the part of the Port Authority, or perhaps of its predecessor, the H&M railroad?
We can slso add that in the case of the 75ft cars (R-44, 46, 62/62A), If by some chance, the side doors are unlocked, the way these cars behave on curves can crush a person like a cockroach. I've seen NYCTA cops come close to bein road kill this way.
I am still looking for the title of a film I saw about 10 years ago about rival gangs of teens and subway grafitti. It is not Style Wars or Beat Street. It shows great shots of the various yards and lots of views of the cars. Thanks to Albert, he helped refresh my memory on he plot but couldn't remember the title either.
Can anyone help?
You must be talking about "Wild Style" It was a really popular movie with the graffitti crowd and it was filmed in 1982-83.
Hi there!
I´m from Sweden and want some info how to get some job on the subway?
Well, first you have to have the right qualifications to obtain a job. Then you have to know what kind of job you want-car maintenance, shop crew, booth clerk.
And then which subway? New York, believe it or not, is not the only US city with a subway(although you'd be hard pressed to find one like it anywhere else). I can't be that much help but my suggestion is try the classifieds:)
nycta jobs are civil service competitive class requiring an exam 18 Washington Street NYC for information regarding upcoming exams and application.
I'm a documentary TV producer for Crosswalks Cable Television. (Crosswalks is NYC's C-SPAN. Our cable channel 74 covers City Hall/Government events and meetings.)
I'm working on a documentary about the 1918 Malbone St. wreck and would be interested in hearing from anyone with photos, artifacts, firsthand accounts, etc. related to the crash.
I am especially interested in MOVING IMAGE FOOTAGE (e.g. newsreels) pertaining to the event, and information regarding SURVIVORS, WITNESSES or RESCUERS THAT ARE STILL LIVING.
I have already been in contact with Brian Cudahy who has done exhaustive research on the topic, so no need to refer me to him or his writings.
Thanks.
Stan Fischler wrote a nice piece about the crash in his book titled "Uptown/Downtown" which was published about 20 years ago.
I do have my copy handy, and if you would like the chapter, let me know
Thanks, James. I've already got it.
You might also try James Clifford Greller who has written several books alone and with the late Mr. Watson
Have you checked with the Transit Museum Historian?
Steve:
Yes.
I'm meeting with the museum people next week, but they don't appear to have too much in the way of Malbone images. It looks like I'll have to beat the bushes in some unexpected places if I intend to find more than the same handful of shots that you see in all the books.
Thanks for the tip anyway, and if you have any other ideas I'd love to hear them.
A & E did a piece on the History of the subways which had video footage of the Malbourne St. incident. I believe it was called "Empire Beneath the Streets".
You might try to get a copy or better yet contact them. Good Luck
Mike:
A wild shot Victor H. Gordon, Jr.-Colvin Hill Rd -RR1 Box2454F Danby,VT
(802)293-5421
Long time publisher of traction books. Sell a lot of old rail fan videos with profits going to one of the Connecticut Museums
I assume you tried James Clifford Greller who has written several NYC "Picture" books, alone and with the late Edward Watson
Marty:
Thanks for the suggestions. All those names are new to me except Greller (whose books I have yet to check out). I'll be sure to follow up on them.
Meanwhile, keep those cards and letters comin' in.
I hope you didn't overlook
The New York Division - Electric Railroaders Assoc
I only have a PO Box
They list a phone number (212)986-4482 with a caveat that Mondays 5:00 to 7:00 is best time.
Try Randy Glucksman News Editor
Bernard Linder Editor-in-chief
I wish I could give you an intro but I'm only a face they might remember from an annual convention. Being 150 miles away their regular monthly evening meetings do not mesh with my wife's ideas of recreational fund expenditure.
To All Busbuffs,
I need your help busbuffs, if anyone has a copy of NYCT bus electronic desination reading list, please let me know & post it on the subtalk. I would greatly appreciate it alot.
Thank you,
Mike
I was wondering if any of you that work for the MTA knows if the MTA will be hiring this summer any interns for business majors. I am a Business Marketing major and would like to know if the MTA hires undergraduate students that are a year from graduation for interns or summer jobs. I would like to work for the MTA since I am very interested in subways and would love to get hands on experience and hopefully provide my input on subjects. Thank you for your help. YOu can either email me directly to my my account or post it here on Sub-Talk.
The TA usually holds interviews for interns around this time. Unfortunately, my experiences with interns has been less than satisfying. I don't blame it solely on the students. Work within a maintenance shop is either very technical or very routine clerical duties. Neither seem to interest the interns.
Not really an error this time, but it seems that SI gets a different
treatment when it comes to the Metrocard transfers.
First, on Wednesday it took me 3 hours to go from 231st and B'way to St.
George, where I boarded an s62 bus to get to school.Got a free transfer.
Last night, returning from Shea Stadium, I boarded the 7 at 11:30pm. I
got off the N at Whitehall St (due to construction at Queensboro Plaza,
the 7 was terminating there, so I switched to te N instead of going for
the 1 at Times Square as I usually do) at 1:00am. The 1:30 ferry was
cancelled, and upon arrival in St. George at 3am, I joined a group of
people at the SIR token booth demanding a free transfer to the train,
due to the ferry delay. After a quick phone call, it was conditionally
granted. The condition was, hand the card to the clerk, who placed it
in his machine, and checked the time and location code. Those who would
have been there an hour earlier were allowed entry, myself included.
One man, who boarded the N at 23st, was not allowed te transfer, even
though I saw where he got on, and how he got where he got. The computer
reported the card was not used.
-Hank
What is the speed of Amtrak trains both Metroliner and Northeast Direct
between Newark and Trenton?
Metroliner trains can go as fast as 125 mph,(as well as any N.E. direct service less than 7 cars)Long distance trains such as the Silver Star(which i will be on in july) can go as fast as 90 mph.
here is the latest on this bus. mta mechanics at yukon depot tried to install a front door interlock on this bus. in the process they messed up the brakes. bus sits idol as mci seeks to void the contract as they were to do all work on the bus.there is abigger problem here as regard union vs non union help. if anyone knows about rts buses 9350- 9699 plases write. it appears mta stopped takig delivery due to a wheelchair lift problem.
I have been told that the MTA uses a double redundant interlock that everyone else trys to stay away from because it is so complex. Does the MTA use a front door interlock on all buses or just the rear door one on the RTS's??
On the RTS's only the back door has a interlock. On the older rts's just the back door itself is the interlock. On the newer ones you have the double interlock, back door and then a extra hitting of the brake pedal to open and then close the rear door. On the 8600's and higher the front door will not open till the bus comes to a complete stop.
What is the purpose of the double interlock on the newer RTSs, other than to slow down the stopping and starting process?
And, for that matter, what was wrong with the old-fashioned New Look-style back doors that mere humans could open? The early RTSs required quite significant force to open; later versions added the yellow tape that would open the door automatically; and even later the yellow tape thingy was modified to keep the door open until the driver toggled the lock switch. Now the bus takes longer than ever to start moving again, the passengers on the bus have to needlessly suffer through whatever the weather is like outside (while the TA literally pours money out the door), and illegally boarding from the back of a crowded bus is even easier than before.
(While I'm complaining about the RTSs, what's the deal with the front-facing seating? More passengers can sit on the bus, but the total capacity drops quite a bit. Having had to ride on the bus standing on the bottom step of the front stairwell with the door pressing on my back because there was nowhere else for me to go, I can say it's absolutely not worth it -- and I've never seen such crush conditions on a New Look.)
they have never used afront door interlock to my knowledge, on buses 8752- 9250 abuzzer would sound if door opened while bus was in motion.in yukon they have disconnected the buzzer.
Why are they putting an interlock on the MCI then? Dosent it have just one door or is it needed for the ADA lift?
I was thinking the same thing. As far as I knew NYCT buses only had interlocks on the exit (rear) door.
it has one door . nyct does not think we can hold the bus still while passengers board and exit. due to their idiocy this bus remains out of service. the icc brake holds bus while wheelchair passengers board.
I understand
About your name did you ever drive a trolley bus I rode one once in 62 in Chicago on the Grand Ave route to Navy Pier to see the Rod and Custom Show with my dad and brothers. I remember the tire noise and the sound of the compressor. and that it was pretty fast for a bus.
no, my daughter gave me the name athough i do remember trolleybuses running in brooklyn in the 1950s.
She sounds very smart
Does anyone have any NYC subway photos that can be sent through e-mail. Or does anyone know any sities with pictures of NYC subways. Im stuck out of state but miss them a lot! Please E-mail me at nyscrew@rocketmail.com
What's the matter with the rest of this site.
Try the "Transfer Station" section for others.
As someone else who's also stuck far away from NYC (about 800 miles or so), I do often browse through this site, but it's still not even close to riding the 2 from 96th to Park Place. Oh well -- there's not much we can do except visit. (And going to Chicago instead, only 150 miles away, is fine until you find yourself waiting for the express. Locals are no fun.)
Can anyone "out there" tell me if SEPTA is operating MU trains of N-5 cars during the rush hours. How is the service and patronage on the Route 100 Norristown High Speed Line?
Also, are two car MU trains operating on the Route 101 Media Line any longer. I believe the rush hour headway’s for trains to Media dropped to every 20 minutes to Media vs. every 15 minutes a few years ago.
SEPTA use to run MU's on the NHSL but I'm unsure as to if they still do. The 101 and 102 are the same way. I was at 69th last week and saw a non-articulated car.
Now don't say they don't run MU's but I'm not sure. I'm going down there today anyway so I'll check and get back to you.
BTW, the patronage for the NHSL is seemingly good. It's a much faster connection to CC then the 125(to me). Of course there's always the R6:)
I always felt that the combined P&W and EL ride was a good bargain back in the old days before SEPTA. This was before the through transfer. You paid a separate fare to both the Red Arrow and PTC. Before the CC tunnel, if your destination was west of 15th Street, the P&W/EL was the way to go. Remember, prior to 1984, the Reading Company Norristown Branch ended at Reading Terminal.
The major drawback recently is the EL connection. During the off-peak the ride through West Philadelphia could be considered unsafe. Also, few riders want to ride equipment that is not air-conditioned. Something that will be remedied when all the M4’s are in service. Is that now projected to be in the year 2000?
To answer a previous question, there are still a couple of trips in each peak which use 2-car trains. There was an early morning pre-N5 trip that was somewhat unique in that it ferried a 2-car train outbound that was then split into 2 single units for 2 closely-spaced inbound trips, without the hassle of having to carefully plan the schedule around the single track at the Norristown end of the line. I don't know if this trip still operates like this. I suspect it doesn't given the longer peak-hour headways out of N'town.
I believe all 101 and 102 trips are made by single cars.
I've heard that the pedestrian bridge at the Franklin Ave. Shuttle Station,
which is a section of the Fulton Street Elevated structure, was recently torn
down. Can anyone confirm that with me? As far as I know, it was the only
existing remnant of the Fulton Street El. Luckily, I managed to take some
photos of it last year. I hope at least part of it still remains, for historic
purposes.
It is gone!!!
Part of the structure has been removed.
The entire structire will be replaced (or so I have heard) with a plain pedestrian bridge which will connect with the new elevator(s?) to the Uptown A/C
platform.
In other words - once completed - no more paper transfers (and a drastic reduction in fare abuse)
It's gone. They demolished everything up to and including (I think) part of the shuttle platform and tracks. As a stopgap they built 1 or 2 makeshift stairways which run up the side of the concrete foundation. I hope you got some good pictures of the ironwork and structure!
im a nycta subway train operator,specifically operating maintenance of way trains,otherwise known as work trains and i offer a few comments.
if service is disrupted at nite,its because of a general order,i.e. work on the tracks,2.the symbols under car numbers means the cars have been modified in one way or another and shouldnt be mixed with others of the same type.3;roll signs were a real pain to change,trust me,i wished i could use a power screwdriver but wasnt allowed.4;the irt has the only cars left with roll signs.if anyone has any questions,feel free to email me at andreone@perfekt.net.
By roll signs, I presume you're referring to route and destination signs on the end bulkheads. The Redbirds are, in fact, the only cars which still have them. Personally, I wish all cars still had them; I like to know where a train is headed as soon as it pulls into a station.
One the subject of destination "roll signs"
There has be quite the controversy here in Chicago over destination signs on trains. Until VERY RECENTLY routes had color coded roll signs displaying the route name. Example - (RED) HOWARD - DAN RYAN. Well, were was the train heading asked those not familiar with CTA operation. Today, the destination of the train is displayed. Example - (BROWN) either LOOP or KIMBALL, with a LOOP bound train displaying LOOP until after leaving the Merchandise Mart. This method is better, however the roll signs in CTA equipment are mechanical. They are set up by the OPERATOR in the cab by a combination of toggle switches. These toggle switches coincide with the "classification lights" displayed on the front of the trains. For those unfamiliar, a Brown Line train in LOOP service will display a GREEN light on the left and a RED light on the right. All routes have their own unique color combinations for recognition by tower operators, supervisors and knowledgeable riders. The problem that exists now is that when the switches are set all the cars don’t always received the message and the proper destination. For example, the other day a pair of cars on the Red Line were displaying an (ORANGE) FORD CITY sign. Good luck on that trip! Many northbound Red Line trains are seen displaying 95th/DAN RYAN and vise versa. So, although signage has improved, it is FAR from its goal of accuracy.
The problem with inaccurate and incorrect signs is not new. It happens in New York, too. Those colored lights which CTA refers to as "classification lights" are called "marker lights" in New York. However, they are no longer used in New York; the Redbirds on the IRT still have marker lights, but they're always set to red-red. R-40 and later cars do not have destination signs on the end bulkheads, either. The R-32 and R-38 cars were originally equipped with marker lights, along with route and destination signs on their bulkheads; these were all removed when these cars were overhauled. In place of all that is a single electronic pixel-type sign which is not all that easy to decipher when the train first enters the station. IMHO, that sign could and should be larger.
I beg your pardon but perhaps I'm missing something here. The R-40, R-42, R-44, R-46, R-68 and R-68A all have end sign curtains that are either cranked by hand or eletrically.
Let me try this way:
Daily....good for the balance of the day from when it is first swiped. If you swipe at 11:30 at night, you have 30 minutes. If you swipe at 12:01 am you have 23 hours and 59 minutes.
Weekly..good for seven(7) days. Day 1 is the day you first swipe it plus 6 more days. You but the card October 1 and start to use it on 10/5, it is good for 10/5 through midnight on 10/11.
Monthly...good for thirty (30) days from date of first use. You buy it Septemr 5 and do not use it until November 3 it is good until December midnight on 12/2.
All of these cards- the day ends at midnight. If you use it for the first time at 11:59 pm you have 1 minute for day 1.
Does this help ?
On the CTA, the $5 One Day Visitor’s Pass is good for a full 24 hours, determined at the time of initial use. If you use one at 9:00 AM on Saturday, for example, it is valid until 8:59 AM on Sunday, or the following day. This application of Day Cards and Multi-Day Cards makes more sense to me than what they are doing in NYC. However, given that until now NYC subway riders had no multi-ride options, I would welcome with open arms this new offering.
This summer the CTA will be offering Multi-ride cards in 2 day ($9), 3 day ($12), and 5 day ($18) options. This information is printed in their April 1998 folder "Downtown Transit Sightseeing Guide", however, I’ve not been able to confirm this with the CTA. Communication is not CTA’s strong suit. Of note, the 5 day card ($18) is the total of 10 one-way trips plus transfer ($1.80). This card may catch on with the weekly commuter. It would be a damn sight cheaper then investing $88 for the CTA monthly pass currently offered.
I think that NYCTA and CTA purchased their vending/reading equipment from the same vendor - Cubix (spelling?). Is this true?
There has been an awful lot of talk here lately about degradation of CTA service. Could it be their Pass Benefits.
I've regretfully have had only 1 weekend of Chicago riding, about 7 years ago.
I know that I had serious questions about the economics of all those 2 car trains running the loop as frequently as they did.
If you were in Chicago seven years ago, 1991, then you did witness the period when the CTA was still running short rapid transit trains at close headway’s.
You really can’t compare Chicago with New York. Chicago doesn’t have the massive ridership or equipment capacity that NYC has. You can’t jam as many people in a 48’ car as you can in a 60’ or 75’ car.
During the time of your visit, the only period you could experience full length six or eight car trains was during the AM and PM rush hours. After the peak periods, the consists were pared down to two or four car trains depending on the route. However, the headway maintained on each route was very close. The then North-South Route would yield a five minute or less (10 minutes or less on each branch, A-Englewood or Jackson Park-B) on the Howard end of the line. In fact, the close headway supported the use of A/B skip stop service up until 1992 when it became an only rush hour deal. I think during that time Ravenswood was every 6 to 8 minutes mid-day and early evening.
Had the CTA investigated OPTO service at that time, which would be much more practical with short train lengths, maybe they wouldn’t be in the financial situation they keep telling us they are currently in. However, hindsight is always 20-20.
What annoys me is that now that the Red Line has operated as OPTO, the weekend headway have been lengthened rather than maintained. The results, longer waits and crowded trains. As CTA touts they want to growth their ridership, what better capacity is there than to encourage ridership outside the peak periods - i. e. mid day and weekends. First time riders are not encouraged to become regular customers if they must wait
10+ minutes for a crowded train.
Thanks for the chat!
Although I spent the first 21 years of my life riding the NY system almost daily, I'm about 150 miles north of the City, and usually find myself restricted to week end visits(hopefully retirement will change that).
I think I have the same feeling that you do. You have to wonder if the bigs running the system really want offpeak customers. I've been on some Sunday morning runs that were every bit as crowded as some of those rush hour runs. You can tell that many are tourists by the maps in their hand. The long wait, in a station half ripped apart because the 50 years of past negligence is finally being addressed, to board a standee only train, does not leave a good impression.
Hey do you think CTA can get some bucks for the black eye they are receiving from Incident on Long Island?
I get the impression that CTA must be in desperate straits if they're drastically cutting service and implementing OPTO on all lines at all times at the expense of reduced headways and crowded trains.
I'm still sticking by my guns: keep the conductors on the Red and Blue lines. The motorman/operator has enough to worry about without the added burden of operating doors and overseeing passenger loading and unloading.
Here's a thought: wht not rework the door controls so that they're by the controller and have warning chimes which sound as the doors are about to close? Our LRVs in Denver are set up that way; the operator never leaves his seat. Just before the doors close, a beep, beep, beep, beep is heard, followed by a double-time beep-beep-beep-beep. As the doors actually close, a long beeeeeeeeep is heard; there is also a small red light light above each door set which flashes at the same time as the beeps are heard (but is not synchronized with the beeps).
Then again, it may be more trouble than it's worth.....
Took a September tour of the National Parks in 1996, Finished in Denver so arranged to spend an extra day to ride the system. I'm really a trolley nut at heart.
I was aware of the wrong way running on the downtown loop so it was no surprise to me. Question: How are the motorists reacting to thie situation? Any real gripes in the "Public Opinion Pages"
Is the riff-raff from "Is it 30th St? " flooding into downtown?
PS Thought the system was great. The downtown loop a bit small but swell for run-by photos covering its entireity in one day.
Hey Broadway-I25 is also great for watching Unit Coal Trains... If that's your thing
I haven't heard of anyone making an issue about LRV trains alternating between terminating at 18th St. and 30th Ave. Most people who board at I-25/Broadway or Alameda get off downtown anyway, so it makes no difference where a train is headed.
Currently, no trains from 30th Ave. use the loop downtown. There is talk of extending the line from 30th Ave. out to Denver International Airport eventually. There is also talk of a line from Union Station to DIA. It will be interesting to see what sort of service pattern will be implemented once the extension to Mineral Ave. opens. I wouldn't be surprised if all trains from Mineral end up using the loop downtown, with some supplemental short line runs from I-25/Broadway during rush hours.
Some of us, myself included, would like to see a spur line through the Platte River valley. It could be routed past Elitch Gardens (an amusement park), the soon-to-be-built Pepsi Center (future home of the Avalanche and Nuggets), and finally to Coors Field for Rockies games. Hey, if Shea Stadium can be served by the 7, Coors Field can be served by light rail.
You know what would be interesting?... If NYC made its one day actually a multi-day card, like N days for 4N dollars. Then you wouldn't have to be 3 one-day cards for a 3 day vacation or business trip, just buy one card for $12 and swipe it until the vacation is over. Above 4 days of course, a weekly card is better.
For anyone who is curious, the Maryland Mass Transit Administration (known to locals in Baltimore, Maryland, as "MTA") introduced new day passes back on March 10, 1996, when the fare structure was changed to eliminate transfers and zone fares. An adult can pay either US$1.35 per single ride, or for a US$3 payment a day pass is issued on-the-spot (reduced-fare riders pay US$0.45 and US$1, respectively). Weekly adult passes are US$14 (no reduced-fare pas here), and monthly local passes are US$54 (US$14 for reduced-fare riders), with a US$67.50 express pass available for certain rush hour express bus services that travel entirely within the City of Baltimore, and surrounding areas of Baltimore County.
We have that little $5 "Day-Pass" dealy in Philly. It's just a sticker on a transfer.
Did I read recently in the NRHS "Cinders" were SEPTA is now looking into SMART CARDS for fare collection? In fact, if I recall correctly, they (SEPTA) were talking a page from the CTA book in that the fare collectors would no longer collect $$$ and be called customer service attendants. Cubix must be cleaning up! NYCTA, CTA and now SEPTA!
So, when that happens you in Philadelphia, my old home town, can get into the card swiping act.
The bad thing about the Philadelphia $5 pass is that you can buy the sticker (which comes on a card) that is to get put on the transfer at only about 4 or 5 places, and the sticker is peeled off and put on a transfer at the first place you get on. So I have to always have an extra one in the house so when I go to Philadelphia I can get it put on.
There is a lot of free parking on Pattison Avenue west of Broad St. so I park there and take the train in. Of course once you've got the pass, it's great, no transfers to worry about, and you get one one-way ride on a commuter train with it. So subway buffs can take a ride from 30 St. to Fern Rock on the Commuter train, then walk over to the BSS and get a train back to Center City.
We here in Toronto have had Day Passes for years. Currently they are C$6.50 (that's about US$4.60) and are good from 5 am to 5 am on every route in the system: subways, streetcars, buses, with unlimited transfers. That deal gets better on Sundays/Holidays when one pass is good for up to six people (maximum two adults). Since last fall the TTC has been offering this Sunday deal on a daily basis for special holiday periods, like Christmas, school breaks and long weekends. For couples or families it's a great deal and encourages them to leave the cars at home. I would, however, like them to introduce a multi-day pass for tourists. This would encourage even greater transit use.
One major shortcoming of the CTA Visitor's Pass, at least as of this past February, is that it's only available at a few locations, mostly downtown. It turns out that there are no stations in the system with park&ride lots that also offer the pass, which makes it of questionable use for anyone who has to drive into town.
As you said, communication is not CTA's strong suit. When I called shortly before my visit, I was told that all of the Orange line stations south of the Loop offered the Visitor's Pass, and that most had park&ride lots. When I attempted to carry out that plan (although I ended up parking on the street since the lot was full), I was informed that the only Orange line station offering the pass was Midway. Since I'd have to pay $1.50 to get to Midway before being permitted to shell out $5.00 for the pass, I decided that it wasn't worth it (and in the end saved $1.80).
So, for future reference, how is a visitor who must drive into town supposed to get one of these passes? Remember, I want one of these passes to save me money, so parking at a museum or downtown probably won't help.
Yes, Cubic Western is the common supplier of automatic fare collection equipment in both NYC and Chicago.
Subway-buff-- here's a suggestion maybe you could pass off to the "right" people-- make the ending time of the card sometime in the wee hours of the morning. Say 4 am. That way a tourist (presumably the market to which a day pass is being aimed) can stay out late (for instance a late dinner after a show) and still get the subway home/back to the hotel/wherever without having to buy a new card at 12:30 am... Or perhaps a day card should be good for 24 hours rather than a calendar day.
-Dave
Dave. I think your idea is excellent and UI also think (personal opnion) that at some point NYCT will be "forced" to do just that.
However, I can see a problem with the computer: When I rewad your card in my computer it shows me the last day(ex: 5/2, 4/28) you used the card and last place (subway, or bus) but not a time such as 11am, 2pm, etc. It would take a software upgrade for such a feature to be added. I am not saying cant! just saying computer upgrade needed to allow for tiem of use and to recognize 24 hours (or 30 days or 1 month)from x O'clock. I can also see people coming to me in the booth saying "I bought a monthly card in March, Used it for the first
time on March 15- why isn't it good today April 16!) The screen would have to show time last used and then we need to educate the customers of the fact of 24 hourrs. While I do not know the exact software used it is MS-DOS Protected mode Based(386 or higher-I believe 486SX 25) (My computer crashed Friday Night and maintenance had to reboot and I read the screens as they flashed by (yes, I knew more then they did!). The computer is very slow-the customers fume as is ddue to the slowness of the computer in the booth. To add the time used (even in 24 hour time) would require four more digits (0001-2400) and thus memory.
I still think that NYCT will be forced to adopt this idea and personally I favor it. We still sell tons of tokens even though you get a free ride with $15 MetroCard they tell me I don't care I wont use it! (I also have mentioned the free bus to train or train to bus transfer with same results) Oh, yes- some will bite but most wont. I got one guy that wanted 100 tokens- I sold him the max of 50 and his friend but 50 and (then gave them to the first guy.) No problem- different transaction and each customer can do what they want with tokens or MetroCard!
**All opinions expressed are my own and not those of NYCT or MTA**
(Supervisors--Are you reading this post- Some of you post to SubTalk! I know at least one supervisor posting here !)
on TBT screen it gives the last time and place used.check screen on right side BUFF.
I think that this is one of their best ideas. I'm sure that this card will work great!!!!
Last night, I checked out the Diesel Loco that is on display at the Transit Museum. Loco #10 (and it's sister loco #11) were built by GE for the Speno Rail Train. They had just 4 wheels (like the old Athern Hustler for you HO modelers). Dimensions 24' 6" long over the anti-climbers and 8' 2" wide. The height is 10' 6" which is standard for NYCT Locos.
The transit museum people would indeed be pleased by your second question. Before putting the loco on display, the power-plant and exhaust stack were apparently removed. It seems that the exhaust stack was replaced by a well made prop. The engine breather appeared to be a prop too.
I was getting off the El just now and noticed a trolley with what appered to be a liquid crystal display(LCD) destination sign. Is SEPTA replacing the old signs for some strange reason?
Hello people at Subtalk. It's been a while. I've come back to let you know that I will soon have my "subway site" up and running at Geocities. I'll let you know when so you can come and check it out. And of course, I'll provide a link to that mother of "subway sites", the New York Subway Resources(if I can!)
Hello again. I travel the El and noticed that for a year now the new Third rail is still sitting in the middle of the tracks waiting to be installed at 8th street and I presumed up to City Hall. When are they going to install the new rail. Also at 15th/City Hall Stop, there is a box with a some type of pipe or something attcahd to it and runs down the middle of the tracks and ends at the Signal box on the East end of the platform looking going towards Frankford. What is that and what is it used for. The westbound tracks seem to have it too. I am curious because that is the first time I have seen it.
If the pipe is red and is only in the middle of the tracks in the stations, it is a sprinkler to (I assume) put out fires under the cars. They have them in Baltimore that way in the Metro stations. It took a couple of looks to see the word "sprinkler" somewhere on the box.
You assume correctly. The red pipes in the middle in the stations are fire supression systems. Not exactly spinklers, as water and electricity do not mix, as we were all taught earlier in life.
The pipes are black rubber. You can find them on the Market Street El. I don't know what the deal is for the rail installation(are you sure that's what they are?). Again on the Market Street El, there are rails and apparent third rails all along the trackbed. It's lined up to the track to make it look somewhat neat but they've been there for a long time. Now if you'll excuse me, I have a Sein-off to set up.
In the NY Post page 6 for Friday May 8, 1998 the R110 high tech trains are being yanked from service. All 10 of the futuristic cars beening tested on the #2 line were taken out of service 2 weeks ago when routine inspections uncovered brake defects. Also the newer cars break down more frequently and are less reliable than older cars, according to TA figures.
This is just the highlights of the story. Maybe someone can put the whole story in subtalk.
Your thoughts in the new R110 lemons.
Charlie Muller.
I have not seen the article so can't comment on the contents. However, let me put the R-110 issue in perspective. My understanding is that when originally conceived, the R-110s were never meant to be a viable part of the fleet or the prototype for a new fleet. Instead, they were meant to test the viability of new technologies which were possibly going to be incorporated into the R-142s and R-143s.
If the R-110s are failures as trains, it must be taken in the context of the original purpose. If the R-110 'experiment' showed which systems would work and which would be a problem in a transit environment, then the R-110s were a success. A $2 million 'failure' to insure a $1.5 Billion success makes a lot of sense.
Couldn't agree with you more!
From a business perspective, it is generally not considered appropriate or wise to run experimental equipment in a production (revenue) operation. It's OK to run pilot-build and in some cases prototype equipment in revenue service, with the knowledge that they will be retired from service when a sufficient quantity of production equipment is on line.
I don't particularly like the R-110's for the ergonomic reasons often quoted (insufficient number of seats, not enough poles to hold on to, the annoying recorded messages that no one listens to, doors that seem to take longer to open), but if their experimental equipment has been the cause of the breakdowns while they were in revenue service, that's just plain irresponsible. One breakdown can inconvenience hundreds of people. When you want to beta test something, you either give it to the customer for free, or you keep it out of production until it's certified.
Since we're not going to be offered the option of free rides on the R-110, I suggest that when the MTA want to test experimental equipment, they should do so on non-revenue track.
And how is the MTA to test rush-hour crowding and the like on non-revenue test track?
I would presume that the experimental modifications made to these cars involved mechanical and electrical components that could only be adequately stress- tested by running them up and down tracks.
Items like rush-hour crowding should be obvious to the ergonomic designer without requiring in-situ testing on revenue track. However, based on the paucity of places to hold on to on the R-110, it doesn't appear that the designers really thought it through anyway.
In my career of field testing, I've always wished that I could put experimental equipment into trial production runs as that's usually the only way to fully test the product in real life. Nonetheless, it's unfair to customers to do that. My job was then to devise testing methods that simulated production as closely as possible. I think the MTA could do that if they tried.
Incidently, your comment on rush-hour crowding really hit home. When I've encountered an R-110 during the rush hour with a heavy crowd on it, I've let it go and waited for the next one. As there's almost nothing to hold on to, I consider them too unsafe. I'm glad they've been removed from revenue track.
Thanks for your interest.
--Mitch
The Nostalgia Train will be out again on Sunday, or so I am told. If so, it will be operating north on the F line around mid-day. At Jay St. it'll switch to the A line to 125th St and then head South again.
The consist 6112A, 6112B, 6112C, 6019C, 6019B, 6019A will pass south through 59th St southbound at around 7 PM and continue south to Hoyt Schermehorn. There it will back into the transit Museum.
Are these special runs part of a museum activity or are they special fan trips?
As I understand it, this particular event is being paid for by The Ford motor Co. of Great britain. They've flown several hundred employees to New York as a corporate reward. The trip and the dinner at the Transit Museum is run by the Museum which is part of NYCT. This will be the forth and final trip for the Ford people. Incidently, there was entertainment on the train too..
The museum people also put together a rather elegant party at the Transit Museum too. More later on this.
The Transit Museum used to have a black tie fundraiser event ($250 or $500 a head) that included something at Lincoln Center, then a ride on the D-Types to the Transit Museum and then an elegant party afterwards. At the conclusion of the party, the D-Types returned everyone to midtown Manhattan.
I never did this but I remember it was quite a shindig. Ford of Great Britain must have spent a fortune.
How much DOES it cost to charter the Nostalgia Train? Anyone know?
--Mark
If they went to Lincoln Center, the D-types would have gotten everyone as far as 59th St on the IND. Then again, maybe they pulled the Lo-Vs out of mothballs, in which case they would have made it to 66th.
While driving on US Route 6 near Mansfield, PA (Tioga County, in the northcentral part of the state), I saw a late 1940s DC Transit ACF-Brill intercity (NOT transit) bus parked in a junkyard along the side of the road. The bus looked like it had been used as a sightseeing vehicle by DC Transit. While I could read the legend "AIR CONDITIONED" on the back of the bus, I could not see a fleet number nor any kind of a destination sign on it. From the looks of the vehicle, I would say that the bus was intact enough to be restorable.
Would any present or former Washington SubTalker be able to fill in some info about this unusual bus? (Or how it ended up in Tioga County, PA, about 350 miles from DC). Maybe DC Transit used it along with their famoue "Silver Sightseer" air-conditioned PCC (which sadly was destroyed by fire in 1970)?
Michael S. Buglak, Collegeville, PA
I was not aware of Capital Transit having any ACF non-transit buses, much less with A/C. Their fleet was basically White's and a few Mack's. I don't remember any ACF or GM buses. The first A/C equipped buses in DC were a group of 5105's with the A/C bonnet on the rear over a full rear window. It may be an ex-WV&M bus, the company that served Arlington. It was purchased around 1965 or so by DCTS, who changed the color scheme to a (minor) variant of their's. It may have come from there. DCTS did try a bus sightseeing operation after 1/28/62, but it did not last very long.
What if by some miracle of science we were able to bring back the dead and some major figures of mass transportation from the past were brought back to life, what would they say about mass transit today?
I would pick Mike Quill the founder of the TWU. I think if were to see the TWU today he would be pleasantly surprised to see how good the working conditions are for transit employees. He would however be disapointed at the infighting thats currently going on between the two major camps at the local 100. One camp is redbaiting the other claiming that they are receiving money from socialist organizations claiming this is so anti-democratic and apple-pie. The irony in this is that Mike Quills nickname was Red Mike because his movement was rooted in the Socialist movement from the 30's!
Anyone have any other good comparisions?
Mike Quill is probably turning in his grave with the way Local 100 is being run.
and what it has become! political crapplola at its finest Willie James and his crew sure has made some improvements but there is plenty to be done get management to realize that slavery was killed a long time ago. NYTCA and MTA is still top heavy (too many chiefs and not enough indians) salaries and perks for management is still pricey and not enough gets trickled down to passengers. OH I forgot that we have a new discipline process thanks Willie James and team however now more people than ever are getting time in the streets or fired for trumped up SHIT. The union is scared shitless to consider a strike Taylor law gives local 100 the willies(oops scuse the pun) but everything that has been won previously is slowly given back, never mind that the membership is told everything is being done to save jobs(RIGHT) sure hire more super(stupor)visors and fire everyone else.... sounds like union busting to me. oh yes lets not forget that alot of folks at 370 jay st and livingston st have jobs that with nothing to do about train or bus movement. just overpaid paper pushers and make up some nonsense bullshit to waste a few million dollars or give cushy contracts to friends and associates to milk the system dry(mta must be short for CASH COW).
Just curious if any of you have vandalized transit equpment?
I tried it a few times just to see how hard it was and it is quite easy.
I don't recomend it though.
What a question!!!
The answer is NO. A true transit buff would never do that.
I agree - and I've had a few miscreants locked up for vandalism of transit equipment. I was riding once with a street supervisor in a "T-Car" as we followed a school tripper where the "students" were ripping seat cuhsions off the seats and pushing them out the windows. That bus was taken, students and all, to the Northeastern district Police station where the offenders were arrested and charged.
You need help! To borrow a phrase from Steve- You Miscreant. May we come to your residence and vandalize your place "for fun". As a taxpayer- we all pay for your sick "fun".
It is people like you that helped raise the fare. Why not take care of the subways so they can be a more pleassnt ride for all.
Just hope I never see you- I'd call the police in an instance and have you removed from the system.
Imagine how nice the system could be if we could spend our time improving the system rather than spending our time undoing your damage.
A:No.
B:No
and C:NO!
I think that vandalism is a blight and unfortunately we have to endure the antics of people like that.
Why would you ever do that?
P.S.-I know who Wallace and Grommit are:) My son loves them. Or is that really your name in which case, I'm sorry. But it tickled me in a Seinfeldian way:)
Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzttttttttttt! Fatal question!
Hey ... I have an idea! Let's vandalize your car and see how easy it is just for the fun of it!
Well, family legend has it that at age 9 months I became spectacularly ill all over the interior of a Chicago & West Towns trolley car. Does that count?
Probably not. Along those same lines, I must confess that I relieved myself once on the stairs leading to the 168th St.-bound platform at Elderts Lane on the Jamaica line. Hey - when you gotta go, you gotta go. I paid the price: I missed a train in the process. This was on a Sunday in February or March in 1968, when the JJ was still in existence. Once the next train arrived and I was riding along, I noticed that the conductor didn't waste any time opening and closing the doors. Those doors didn't stay open much more than literally 2 seconds. BTW, they were running 6-car trains of R-27/30s on that day, and I remember seeing a train of BMT standards laid up on the center track at either 111th St. or 160th St.
I was once stopped by a police officer in NYC once when I, um, relieved myself. I was about 11:15and I was about to enter the East Broadway station on the 'F'(isn't it?) and well, let it all out. There was one of New York's Finest about to come down and said to me "Are you finished?". Thinking I was going to be taken to the station at least, I said I'd pay whatever fine. He said "Don't sweat it. I did the same thing last week."
Hey, guys are guys. Even if they are cops:)
Gee! - and a few weeks ago the topic was the homeless "stinking up the subway".
Thanks. Next time I go near my home station (East Broadway) and get a whiff of fermented urine, I'll be thinking, "Hey, this scent might have been caused by a fellow Subtalk poster!" 8-)
Do you deface your family car or home? As a taxpayer, you're part owner of transit property and equipment.
Just say I’m from the "old school", but I don’t deface any public property, I don’t cut across private property and I don’t litter. They call it proper "upbringing". And for the record, I’m closer to fifty than I am to forty.
Coming in from LGA to the city yesterday evening an E train of R-46s came along at Roosevelt Ave. I recall from an earlier post that this happens when the R-32 fleet is short due to car modifications. I waited for the next E train (R-32s) so I could get a good look at the 63rd Street construction on ride in. The new Manhattan-bound local trackbed just east of Queens Plaza is taking shape nicely.
The alignment of the new D-4 track is disappointing. The tight curve leaving the plaza does not make for a comfortable ride. The radii are too tight for the want of re-locating a support column or two. The project seems pretty close to schedule though.
I'm surprised they've gotten this far so fast! it's been awhile since i've ridden through Queens Plaza I remember last year once the tunnel wall near 36th st station was opened up for the connector that once the heavy came down E F g R service was screwed!!! I remember working a platform job last July after a particular heavy rain that all service on the Queens blvd line was out till after 11-12 midnight
Flooding on the Queens Blvd. Line is nothing new. It happens once or twice a year. During heavy rains, water cascades down from Jamaica Estates and floods the tunnel along Hillside Avenue, especially at Parsons Blvd. One year it was so bad, I had 2 R-46 consists trapped in water which covered the floors of some cars.
There is a photo of a flooded tunnel on the Queens line in the 50s with a stranded train of R-1/9s in Building the Independent Subway. It talks about pump cars being dispatched to the scene, etc., etc.
I remember being stuck on a R1/9 E train in the late 50's, at Roosevelt Avenue, because the route between there and Forest Hills was flooded. Thanks for the memories . . .
Hi guys and girls in Big Apple land. I have a few questions that I thought you could answer for me. Where can I purchase the book Evolution of NYC subways an illustrated history by Gene Sansone. Can I purchase it anywhere through the mail and what is the cost? I have one more question. Recently I took a tour of the 207th shops and Kingsbridge bus depot probably some you were there. At Kingsbridge they gave us copy of little book called the dept. of buses 97 insiders guide. I thought it was great little book with lots of information. I was just wondering if the dept. of subways has a similar book and how would one get a copy of it? Thanks for any herlp on this matter.
The Transit Msueum Gift Shops at the Museum in Brooklyn, @ Grand Central and in Penn Station have the book.
They do not have the ability to handle mail orders.
I have not yet seen the book at big stores like Barnes & Noble or Borders.
The book is not available at Amazon.com either. My guess is that the TA and the Museum have exclusive rights at the moment.
If you're ever in Denver, check out Caboose Hobbies. They have a huge selection of books, including most of the available literature on New York's subways and elevated lines. In addition, books are always discounted by 15%.
NYC Transit used to publish a pamphlet called "Transit Authority Facts and Figures". The last version I have was from 1995. Call up NYC Transit's public affairs office (phone numbers are at the
NYC Transit used to publish a pamphlet called "Transit Authority Facts and Figures". The last version I have was from 1995. Call up NYC Transit's public affairs office (phone numbers are at the MTA web site and see if they still publish it and maybe they'll send you a copy. Let us know how you make out. I wouldn't mind an updated copy myself.
--Mark
From what I've read, the first subway line in NYC was a combination of what is today the Lex. Av., 42 St. Shuttle & Upper Broadway lines. It followed the #4, 5, 6 lines from City Hall to Grand Central, then a left turn onto what is today the 42nd St. Shuttle, then a right turn from Times Square, up Broadway along the #1 line to the very tip of Northern Manhattan.
I assume there were express and local tracks between City Hall and 96 Street. But where are the express tracks on the stretch along 42nd Street? Today's shuttle only has 2 or 3 tracks, unless over the years the fourth track was covered up.
Nothing today in either the Times Square or Grand Central shuttle stations looks like there were conventional express and local island platforms. There are three positions for trains to be boarded but it seems like these stations have been reconfigured.
And how far north did the express tracks go? Today, the #2 & #3 tracks separate from the #1 tracks north of 96 St. to serve Lenox Avenue above Central Park. There are a few places where there is a third track in the center where peak expresss service might have been available, but maybe it's just emergency track to bypass a stalled train, never used for regular service.
Track 2 is covered up by the extra wide platform at Grand Central and by the platform for track 3 at Times Square. If you take the shuttle on either track 1 or 3 and look out the opposite side window you will see the roadbed where tarck 2 was.
The express tracks are still there. They were and are part of the Lenox Line.
The Broadway line just above 96th St always had 3 tracks until 137th St where it fans out to 8 tracks and then becomes 2 tracks just before 145th St. (In case anyone asks the extra tarcks at 137th St are for storage.)
And the original subway in 1904 only went to 145 St. and Broadway.
Wasn't the Beach Pneumatic Subway the first...by about 30 years!
The Beach Pneumatic Subway on Lower Broadway near City Hall was opened in 1870 so it predated the original IRT Contract 1 line by 34 years. Since it only extended one block, it did not do what subways are supposed to do.
The original IRT route was modified into today's pattern in 1917-1918, when two new routes opened courtesy of the Dual Contracts. The Seventh Ave. subway opened below Times Square and the Lexington Ave. subway opened above Grand Central. The 42d Street portion, now isolated from its uptown and downtown connections, became the shuttle route - or the cross in a letter H pattern.
The original Times Square subway station is where the shuttle trains begin and end today. Amazingly, it was a local station in 1904, an oversight corrected when the newer IRT 7th Avenue and BMT Broadway subways opened approx 1917 . Today's platform along shuttle track 1 is the old downtown platform; the uptown platform is the current Track 4 platform. The last old mosaic "Times Square" sign is visible along the far wall behind the platform. Today's shuttle track 3 is the old uptown express track. The plaform for this track covers the old downtown express track - and that's why there are I-beams, instead of round columns, along this platform.
If you walk to the far west end of the shuttle where the crossover is located, you can clearly see the #1,2,3 tracks, and where the original route swung northward onto Broadway. One of those track connections is still used for equipment moves.
The triple track stretch from 96th to 137th Streets has the same track and station layout today that it had in 1904. The stations have been modernized, but that's all. The middle track has never been used for express service, but is used for equipment layups, or diversions when track work is being done on one of the outside tracks.
Why are the doors on the 75 ft cars locked? Someone wrote that the way they
behave on curves. Can anyone discribe this in detail?
Why dont the subway cars have vestible between them like the LIRR and MNRR?
The doors are kept locked on the 75ft cars because of the way the cars behave on curves. It makes a very dangerous and unsafe condition where the door vestibules are spaced far enough apaart that there ia a slip and crush hazard when tyrying to cross cars. The R-44 n R-46 cars supposedly had interlocks tha actually locke all the door as the train took a curve.
from what i've seen riding on any 75' cars in my experience and training as a conductor that under no circumstances was a train with 75' equip was to leave in passenger service with end doors unlocked period. when putting a train inservice from a yard or lay up end doors are to remain locked unless in an emergency evac. enroute
Actually, when I was a kid, I took the F train to Brooklyn and changed for the A. The F was always R-46's with the end doors locked, and if the A was R44's, the end doors were NOT locked. This was 1983.
Very interesting. Or, as Artie Johnson used to say on Laugh-in, "Verrrry interesting, but stupid".
I seem to recall that the BMT standards had their storm doors locked during revenue operation.
I also recall that the end doors on the BMT standards were motorized and could be opened/closed from the conductor's position.
Ed - are you referring to the door controls in wide space between the center doors? I only remember seeing the conductor operating out of one of the motorman's cabs in the middle of the train.
Yes, I was referring to the door controls in the wide space between the center pair of doors. There were buttons on the panel for the car end doors.
I recall once, riding home from high school (Stuyvesant HS, which at that time was at 15th St. and First Ave.) to Brooklyn on the Brighton line when, due to a severe rainstorm and associated flooding in the open cut section, the line was closed, and the train stopped in the tunnel short of Prospect Park station. The conductor opened one door at the front of the first car, and ALL of the end doors, and the passengers walked through the train and a short distance on the catwalk into Prospect Park station (from where, using an "Emergency Transfer", I continued my trip home via bus).
Now that you mention it...
There were buttons marked "close end door" among that cluster, along with buttons marked, "close center side door". I always thought those buttons were disabled when the BMT standards were retrofitted with multiple unit door controls around 1921 or thereabouts. One of the Transit Museum members mentioned that the buttons of the standard on display were disabled.
Whoa!!! I was just in high school when the 67' standards were in service. However, if my memory serves me correctly, the MDCs worked this way: The "Close End Door" would close the associated zone and the end set of side doors of the conductors car. The Center door in the conductor's car remained open so the conductor could insure that all other doors were closed and no one was trapped. Then the "Close Center Door" button would be pressed and the center set of doors in the Conductor's car would close and the train would proceed. Does anyone remember it differently?
BTW, one of the afore mentioned cars is being rebuilt in Coney Islnd by volunteers. Photos to follow!
When I was in high school, the control panel on the BMT standards had, I believe, 8 buttons in two rows, like:
o O o
o o o o o
The top row were the "open" buttons. The large one in the center
opened all side doors (in all cars), the smaller ones on the sides, IIRC, opened the end doors (between the cars).
The bottom row were the "close" buttons. The far end ones were
for the car-end doors, the middle/left and middle/right were for all side doors to the left or right of the Conductor's postion, and the center button was for the set of doors at the Conductor's control panel.
Now, I'm remembering from over 35 years ago, so I could be wrong.
you have a very good memory for i too remember this.
On the BMT standards, did the conductor operate the doors from the button console between the center doors, or was he in the motorman's cab? I rode them regularly during the last two years of their careers (1967-1969) on the Canarsie line, and I never saw the conductor anywhere near any of the button consoles. I always got off at Lorimer St., and remember seeing the conductor in the motorman's cab in the fourth car (6-car trains of standards were the norm on the Canarsie line).
As I understand, when the standards were first delivered, there would be a conductor in each car of any given train who would operate the doors in his car only. During rush hours, it took some doing to maneuver from one side of the car to the other as required by outside or center island platform. Multiple unit door controls came later, and all of the standards were retrofitted with them. Naturally, once this was accomplished, only one conductor was needed per train. I was under the assumption that the multiple unit door controls were installed in the motorman's cabs, and at the same time the buttons on the consoles between the center doors were disconnected.
BTW, I knew the storm doors on the standards were kept locked during operation, but didn't realize the buttons marked "close end door" referred to the storm doors. Did the storm doors have door motors on them? Or did the button controls simply lock and unlock the storm doors? I remember boarding a train of standards once at Lorimer St., and saw a 2x4 running diagonally across the front storm door of the first car, pushing against the door latch. Apparently, the latch wouldn't lock and they didn't want anyone accidentally opening the door, falling off the train, and getting crushed to death. You have to wonder why they even bothered to use that specific car if the storm door wouldn't lock.
I guess all things change with time!
I noticed a post the other day about conductors in a spare motorman's cab and it got me thinking. I also rode the 14th St/ Canarsie Line daily for 3 years between DeKalb and 1st Ave and then for another 4.5 years between DeKalb and 8th. I don't remember a conductor at any place other than the middle door of a mid-train car on the Standards.
This was in the early 50's, and I'll admit that I was more interested in assisting the motorman up front.
I agree. The only Conductors I ever saw on the Canarsie Line BMT Standards was in the middle car (or close to the middle) at the middle door.
Anyone remember when the doors closed? The one's on the Canarsie Line would close with a vengeance. Wonder if doors were held then!!
One thing I always wondered...
With the Conductor in the cab, he/she could see if someone was being dragged and stop the train. With the BMT standards, once the doors closed, the conductor would be with the passengers and not be able to watch for this. Did the BMT standards have a high incidence of customers being dragged or was there a way they could watch the platform as trains pulled out...
I just thought of something. Perhaps there is some truth to this theory.
The last group of BMT standards which were retired in 1969 (200+ cars) were rebuilt in the late 50s. I don't know any specific details of what was done, but I get the feeling that the door controls may have been relocated to the motorman's cabs on those particular cars.
When I rode the standards on the Canarsie line from 1967 to 1969, I would sit in the middle of the train, usually the third or fourth car of a typical 6-car train, on the trip from 8th Ave. to Lorimer St. I know for a fact that I never saw the conductor at any of the center doors, although I remember the control buttons. I do remember seeing the conductor in one of the cabs after getting off at Lorimer. On the way back to Manhattan, I always stood in the first car, 2x4 or no 2x4. After the R-1/9s and R-42s arrived, I stood in the first car on the way to Brooklyn as well. BTW, I'll bet that if a storm door could not be kept closed and locked today, they would probably evacuate the car and isolate it from the rest of the train; i. e., the doors of that car would not open at stations. I saw them do that once on a train of R-44s after the window of the door to the motorman's cab fell out when someone leaned against it.
Getting back to the standards, the dragging issue raises a good question: how did conductors check for anyone being dragged if they were standing by the center doors? Passenger entry doors did not have opening windows, although the storm doors on the standards did. Back in the days when each car had a conductor, it would have been easier to spot someone being dragged.
I just pulled Greller's "Subway Cars of the BMT" off the shelf to check if anything is said about relocating the conductor. With all this yalk about "Railfan" seats, the first thing that hit my eye was the early photos showing the unblocked "Railfan" window.-
Subway Cars of the BMT not any help. Only talks of unused motormens cabs and their conversion to "private passenger cabs" (remember them?) On page 13....."An extensive rebuilding program took place in 1959-1960 that included removal of the unused motorman's cabs and replaced some cross seats with longitudinal seats, 396 cars received this treatment."
Apparently the first 600 cars, 2000-2599 had the unobstructed front window.
I also believe that "dragging passengers" was not the problem people seem to think. When revised to be operated by a single conductor, did not all train doors to one side of the conductor close, then all doors to the other side, and then finally the conductor's doors. In theory all doors were to be clear and closed before the conductor closed his doors,
When these cars were remodeled in the late 50's/early 60's, weren't the interiors repainted with a horrible green and speckled color?
Don't know because I was gone in 1957. There is some mention of an "R-Type Green" applied to some in 1955. Coulod this be what you are referring to.
Yes, part of the rebuild of 200 or so standards included a repaint of the interior to the "horrible green and speckled color". Also, unused cabs were removed, and the end areas were opened up by replacing the transverse seats with longitudinal seats. While the cars kept incandescent lights, the lighting was improved (lights were added, and the bulbs were replaced by higher-wattage "soft white" types).
I'm not sure what mechanicals were improved.
The rebuilds came in two flavors, 3 car married sets, with an operators cab at each end and a working conductor's station in the middle car, and 2 car sets, also with a cab at each end, but no working conductor's station. The remaining conductor's stations were deactivated. A typical 8 car train was 3+3+2, with the conductor in the 5th car (or 4th, if the 2 was in the back). A 6 car train was 3+3, with the conductor in car 2 or 5. Also, 3 car trains ran on some shuttle lines and late nights.
Prior to the rebuilds (and the un-rebuilt), the were A cars (single units, active cab at both ends, working conductor's station), B sets (3 cars, active cabs at ends, "private seating" cabs in centers, working conductor's station in middle car) and Bx sets (similar to B but with 4000-series trailer in middle; the trailers had no cabs).
Another feature I remember about the Standards (motors) was that they came in two flavors, with small and large roll signs. The small roll sign models were older, and the signs were obscured from the inside of the train when the doors opened. The large roll signs were located in the upper pane of a window. The 4000 series trailers had large roll signs located slightly differently from the 2000 series large roll sign models (one window further from center). I also recall that the two types of 2000 series cars had different roof ventilators.
Another tidbit to add about the Standards:
At least some of these had extra seats which could be folded down in front of one door of each pair for extra seating (presumably the door would be deactivated when this was done). These fold-down seats were removed during the rebuild. I don't know if they were ever used, certainly not in my memory (since '50s).
I guess that means my theory doesn't hold water. Oh, well. Maybe my memory is betraying me. Or perhaps I tuned all of that out because I didn't particularly like the standards.
I also remember the different-sized roll signs. Did you ever notice that none of them ever had Rockaway Parkway signs? Even though the Canarsie line was cut back in the 20s thereabouts, the roll signs still said "Canarsie". They must have figured that people would be smart enough to figure out where the train was headed without getting specific. Interestingly enough, those same signs did say "8th Ave.-Manhattan" even though the 8th Ave. station didn't open until 1931. It's much easier to distinguish 8th Ave. from 6th Ave. than Canarsie from Rockaway Parkway, apparently.
As I recall, the doors on the standards opened and closed smoothly and evenly, at about the same rate as the doors on the R-32s and R-38s today. Once in a while, one door would be improperly adjusted and would whip open and slam shut. If you tried holding it open, forget it. Those doors were wide enough so that an entire "Please keep hands OFF door" would fit on one door.
And I do remember the sickly paint scheme. Some cars were painted a dark green shade.
The BMT Standards rollsigns also contained 6th Ave.-Manh't'n(in addition to 8th Ave-Manh't'n).
Over the years, destinations and routes were added to the roll signs.
Destinations such as "Astoria", "Ditmas Ave.", and "Forest Hills - Queens" did not exist when the standards were new.
Some curiosities I remember:
A route sign "GG Local" (never saw it used)
Route signs for the Nassau St. Loop trains which would appear where the "Via Bridge" or "Via Tunnel" usually went (larger roll signs only):
via bridge thru
NASSAU LOOP
then via tunnel to bklyn
(Or something like that. There was also the other varient with via tunnel first).
All three lines were on a single panel of the larger roll signs, the first and last lines were tiny and the "NASSAU LOOP" in the middle was about 1/2 size.
I do recall seeing Culver and West End Nassau Loop rush hour trains with these signs displayed in the late 1950s.
I was going through my collection recently and came across a couple of said signs. I am actually looking to get rid of them. Let me know if you or anyone else cares. Have a list of others I am trying to get rid of, too.
Charles, I would be very interested in finding out what you have. I am particularly looking for a bulkhead destination roller curtain used on the R-1/9s, specifically, one which has a legible Coney Island sign. I have such a curtain, but the Coney Island sign was painted over! This sign will typically include Kings Highway on the same strip of canvas; it was spliced onto the end of the roll. (The Coney Island lettering was wider and filled the entire space on roller curtains used on the R-1/9s and R-32s. The R-27s and R-30s had narrower lettering on Coney Island bulkhead signs.)
If you have any side destination curtains for the IND, let me know also. Heck, even a roller curtain from a BMT standard would be interesting. Email me at my address. Thanks!
P. S. If you could list the stations and designations on each sign, I'd appreciate it. I could compare them with what I have. Your curtains might have stations which mine don't.
Steve, will do. I do believe I can help. I take an exam next Saturday and then I will let you know what I have. I think I have a couple of extra BMT/IND signs off the much newer variety, you know, upper and lower case, on Mylar, etc.
I really would like to find NYCity bus signs, but no one seems to have any of those.
A few other terminals were listed just by line designation rather than terminal station, specifically "Fort Hamilton" and "Astoria" (and later "Forest Hills"). But so many others went by station name "Metropolitan Avenue", "Times Square" etc.
If I recall correctly when I first started to get truly aware of the standards when they were taken off the Bway BMT and transfered to the Canarsie line. I remember seeing an occasional train made up of 6 single cars 2700 series. The 2500's were solid numerical 3 car units. The 2400's were mated 2400-2600-2400 . This was probably done when the motorless and useless 4000's were taken off. Finally I remember one mixed set of 3 cars: 2899 in the group.Again, the maximum length on the Canarsie, Myrtle-Chambers,& Jamaica/ Bway-Bklyn combo was 6 cars.
The 2x4 in the front door reminded me of something...
When I was young, I rode the BMT Standards on the Canarsie Line with my dad. One Sunday, we got off the B-42 at Rockaway Parkway and went to the front-car of a BMT standard. As the train rounded the left hand curve between East 105th Street and New Lots, the front storm-door flew open. Luckily, no one was leaning on it. My Dad pulled me back. At Sutter Avenue, a TA mechanic (or someone), climbed onto the front of the train and wedged a piece of wood into the door to keep it closed.
Sounds like we were both in the same car. I too am surprised they would leave it in service. Especially on the front car!!
For a while the R-44 and R-46 cars were equipped with switches mounted near the doors that could be used to unlock them "in an emergency". First they were out in the open, then moved behind a piece of red plastic that would have to be broken to access the switches. Now they seem to have been removed altogether. Why not retain these switches, behind the breakaway covers? Were people breaking them open frequently when it wasn't an emergency?
As for the original plan to have the doors lock on curves and unlock on straight stretches, I would certainly hope that only the inside door handles would lock, otherwise it could wind up locking people OUT of the cars at the worst possible time.
End doors on R-44, 46, 68 and 68A cars are locked mechanically and electrically. In the case of an 'emergency', the doors can be unlocked trainline by the flip of a switch on the Train Operators console. As we saw last week, so tragically once again, some individuals seem to think that the subways are a form of Urban Amusement Park. I am not only referring to the young man who lost his life, but also his friend, and the other people who saw this kid playing a very dangerous game and did nothing to stop it.
If we were to make the end doors accessible by brwaking a plastic cover, there'd be the usual jerk who'd rationalize 'his special need' to get to the front of the train. Before long there would be no covers and people would begin falling between cars. There are times, in the performance of my duties, that I am required to cross between the cars on the A or D lines. Despite the fact that I am clearly identified by a safety vest, people will sometimes attempt to follow me simply for the sake of doing it. That may be human nature but it calls into question how much we can count on common sense to control behavior.
Anyone who has been between 75' subway cars can tell you why the doors are kept locked. On curves one car will move left and the other will move right. If you are not prepared, you can be swept from the car. Trust me on this one.
as a conductor walking from car to car is pretty common pratice. however when some trains are laid up and crossing from car to car in 75' cars going across switches and curves is pretty hair to say the least.
What are the vestibules. And what role do they play in the fear of crossing between 75ft cars. I've never crossed 75ft cars since the doors are always locked.
Today's subway cars in New York do not have vestibules; i. e., enclosed end platforms with doors for passenger loading and unloading. The IRT Composites, Hi-Vs, and Lo-Vs thru #5653 were the only subway cars with such vestibules. These are not to be confused with the full-width operator's cabs found on the R-44, R-46, R-68, and reworked R-62 cars.
lets see why aren't vestibules avail to subway riders between cars could it be bacause of vandalism? Crossing from car to car should only be for emergencies for one thing, just the other day a teen was killed falling between cars allegedly he was playing around as the train was heading into the loop at cityhall brooklyn bridge and this is a slow speed movement 10 mph or less. technically no passengers should be on board entering the relay/loop but i think i read some where in a memo passengers MAY ride even though this isn't allowed elsewhere in the system.
[ technically no passengers should be on board entering the relay/loop but i
think i read some where in a memo passengers MAY ride even though this isn't allowed elsewhere in the system. }
This stretch of track is now considered mainline trackage and passengers can remain on the train.
But it's no excuse for horseplay between cars.
--Mark
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: there are those who just don't use plain old common sense. I haven't had a chance to ride around the City Hall loop yet, but plan to do so during my next trip to New York. I hear that curve is pretty sharp!
After a brief trip to the Transit Museum this afternoon, I decided to go "up the Lex" and "down the west side" on the IRT, to take a look at the Lenox Ave. construction area. I had a good look at the speedometer on both lines: Uptown on the [5], the max speed was a very brief stretch at 49 mph between 42nd and 59th Streets (thanks to gravity :-). I changed for a downtown [2] at 149th Street (and waited the advertised 24 minutes!). Top speed was achieved just north of the 50th Street local station, 45 mph.
The Lenox Ave. construction site was active, but most was blocked by walls separating the uptown and downtown tracks. Single tracking is still in effect, using the downtown rail.
And from what i've heard regarding the Lenox ave project the October/November 98 completion date is just a fantasy. some are saying March of 1999! the underground stream plagueing the Lenox ave line is not something that came out of nowhere. Mta has known for years and tried unsuccessfully in the past to try and control the damage. A band Aide try I might say but if the problem can't be fixed why not with todays technology redirect the stream below a (if possible) watertight structure. If we can put man on the moon.....
The IRT's Lexington line has slowed down drastically. I boarded a downtown 4 train at 59 ST. It took way much longer than normal for the train to reach the Fulton St. station where I got off. Ever since the 2 merged with the 4 & 5, the slowdowns and the waits have grown. The train stopped in between stations about four times due to congestion ahead. During those four times the train stopped, about 3 local trains passed us. It got pretty frustrating seeing those local trains bypassing us. Until the #2 train gets back to it's own line, don't expect to see regular service for some time on the line.
-Garfield
I think that you would have found the southbound #4 fron 125 St. to 42nd St. more to your liking (except that you might not get to see the speedo.)
BTW. Speaking about speed, last Weds. nite I rode the D-Types, which have not been slowed down. I all bu forgot what it feels like to actually have to slow down for curves and timers. All that weight and power and yet the train is relatively quiet at most speeds. The nicest part of riding the train is when the motorman notches it up to multiple and you finally hear the once familiar groan coming from the traction motors and gear-cases. Nothing like it !!!!
But Steve... poor citizens such as your humble meteorologist can't ride in the cab on a #4 train like you can! And as you mentioned in your post on the D-Types, riding shotgun on a Redbird for me brings back lots of memories as a kid barely tall enough to see out the front window. The R-62's may be shiny and efficient, but it just ain't the same!!
Lucky you! There are those who will say, in the face of opposition, that the D types, or Triplex units, were the best subway cars ever built. I'm partial to the R-1/9s myself, as I've never ridden the D types. I'd love to ride them someday just to see for myself. In terms of moaning, groaning, and whining while gathering speed, I'll bet they sound the same as the BMT standards, R-1/9s, Hi-Vs, and Lo-Vs. I hear they're capable of doing 65!
BTW, I can vouch for the 40-45 mph speed on the 2 and 3 heading downtown and approaching 50th St. There must be timing signals between 50th St. and Times Square; it's a bummer when these trains crawl the rest of the way to Times Square.
In those few places where gravity helps our cause, the trains briefly make 50 mph. Just like the good old days. On my way back to LGA yesterday afternoon, I watched the speedometer on the R-32 [E]. Heading downhill into the 53rd Street tunnel after leaving Lex, we hit 42 mph (that one blasted timing signal...). Then heading uphill to 23rd/Ely, we slowed to 21 mph! I guess I wouldn't mind the slower max speed if it also didn't affect the hill-climbing ability as well.
By the way, the Q-33 ride from Roosevelt Ave. to LGA took a record-breaking 45 minutes yesterday due to the Mother's Day traffic. This is normally a 20 (off-peak) to 30 (rush hour) minute ride. The [N] to M-60 can be faster, but in the rain, the [E] to Q-33 provides a full "weather proof" ride since the train to bus transfer is under cover at Roosevelt from the [E], but not at Astoria Blvd from the [N]. On the Q-33 I overhead a couple from out-of-town discussing one of this board's favorite subjects: the lack of direct subway service to LGA. I told them the tale of Moses, et. al...
i've bee hearing from fellow employees who've received training in new unlimited ride metrocard procedures that we're in for some headaches. time based cards will offer $4 daily $17 weekly and $67 monthly. these cards will have pass back restrictions to minimize misuse of cards. someone mentioned regarding adding value to metrocards will now be more time consuming since we'll have to watch for what type of card ( time based(unlimited) or regular full fare cards) since adding value to a time based card can trap the value(customer will see no dollar value added to card) however we can trade dollar value accidently added to time based card. also weekly & monthly cards will be confusing to most customers. Weekly/Monthly cards are activated not when purchased but when used for first time at turnstile or bus farebox. Say you bought a weekly card wednesday that cards week doesn't start till you use it be it thursday friday or when ever! monthly I believe goes the same fashion. daily I think gives 24 hours of use and I think these cards can have time added but i'll try to give more once i've gotten trained...
Should have just gone with a big off-peak discount -- say at 75 cents. The programming and use would have been less complicated, and all the induced ridership would have been off peak. You might have even had peak hour riders shifting to off peak.
that would certainly have been too easy for mta to implement!! I agree that an off peak discount would certainly have been a bigger plus to ease rush hour over crowding and to increase ridership on non hours.
Why don't they just make the monthly, weekly, etc cards different looking somehow? Even if it is just to say "Metrocard Gold" and underneath "MONTHLY PASS DO NOT REFILL" in big letters. Why would anyone even want to add money to a day/week/month pass anyway? They should just throw it out when it's expired and the card should say so...
There already are non-refillable MetroCards in use, those on the backs of LIRR and Metro North monthly passes. I haven't heard of any problems with accidental refills.
[There already are non-refillable MetroCards in use, those on the backs of LIRR and Metro North monthly passes. I haven't heard of any problems with accidental refills. ]
In addition to the MetroCards on the back of railroad monthly passes, there are now MetroCards sold via ATM machines, which are also un-refillable. Republic National Bank offers MetroCard sales through there ATMs. A brochure I picked up on the topic on a Q46 bus also says that since the ATM MetroCards are made of a special material that can pass through the ATM, they feel slightly different from other MetroCards and should not be refilled. I think that this looks like a great service, next time I need a MetroCard I am going to try it out. I wonder if they are going to sell daily/weekly/monthly passes once they come out, and also if other banks will pick this up. This could be a great way to sell MetroCards, especially in the old two fare-zones and in the airports.
JC
Actually, the MTA will soon begin the process of installing MetroCard vending machines in the subway stations. They will allow fares to be paid via cash, credit and debit cards (I'm not sure it standard ATM cards are included).
Oh and what a pain in the ass they will be! folks can hardly swipe there cards at the turnstiles you think they'll be smart enough to use a vending machine! lately people have been coming to booths asking if they could use their atm cards travelers checks and credit card i'm sure mta extols the ease of use the forthcoming machines will be but we employees will have to hear the hassels of Oh the machine took my money yada yada yada get real!!! follow the instructions on the machine and you'll get what you want fast, most people are to impatient and end up frustated now...
Anthony! Think customer service. Your concerns are valid- that is precisely why the long range plan calls for us to handle no money and to be able to assist customers in the station to use the AVM, inspect station, etc. When that happens we will no longer be restricted to the booth.
OPinion: it will happen probably long after I retire- I have at least 15 morew years to go!(I am not saying exactly how many!)
**opinions expressed are my own and not those of MTA or NYCT**
a co worker I relieved tells me we'll be in and out of booths before we stop handling money ie: when customers have trouble at vending machines. I guess elimination of pm token tricks is a ploy to inconvenience customers to buying(spending more per transaction) to get people out of waiting in line for the forthcoming vending machines hmmm... doesn't sound safe to me yet same with doing finger tip maintenance exactly when should we clean swipe readers? I prefer while doing the relief.
Why not have refillable Daily/Weekly/Monthly passes so that a card can hold multiple days or weeks or months on it? The MTA would need 4 differently marked cards (single, day, week, month). I would buy a card with 5 separate days ($20) worth to use whatever days I need it.
$67 for the monthly card? Originally it was going to be $63. Did they decide to raise the price?
P.S. $63 is also the maximum a commuter who rides the subway exactly twice each workday can have to pay in any calendar month, given the current 10% discount.
4 weeks @ $15.00/week would give four free rides, good for Aug. 29 and 30; then the extra $3 would take care of the 31st. (I say August because it is the only month in which most workers have no paid holidays; if August starts on a Monday, Tuesday, or Wednesday, then there will be 23 workdays that month; no other month has more than 22, which can be covered by $60 in fares).
Monthly *adult* MetroCards will cost $63 as far as I know.
from what i've heard adult passes will be the only unlimited offering. student only applies to passes offered to nyc board of education students, and seniors apply for a reduced fare metrocard.
Based on official material:
Seniors/ people with disabilities can get these passes at Half-fare(via their Redcued Fare MetroCard). The weekly for them is $8.50, monthly$31.50, Daily $2.00.
Students- sorry!
Thursday Night I rode PATH to Downtown WTC since I was working near downtown. There were few passengers so I got to talk to the conductor. New cars have been ordered but there is a problem holding up the cars.
The conductor advised me that PATH wanted to eliminate conductors (OPTO) but the FRA said no. The conductor added that he did not know what that will do to the new cars or when they'll come.
Please do not ask what they look like- I do not know!
(The FRA is ther Federal Railway Administration,the agency that terlls PATH and the LIRR and Metro North what to do)
Sounds like union propaganda.No new cars have been ordered,and most likely won't be until a decision is made about replacing the signal system.I've heard it will probably be similar to the "Moving Block"system soon to be installed on the Canarsie Line.My understanding is that OPTO won't be considered until this system is up and running satisfactorily.
Because of the rapid transit nature of its operations and equipment,PATH already has a number of waivers on FRA regulations,which were written with "standard"railroads in mind.With a high tech train control system in place,another waiver wouldn't be hard to get.While it doesn't regulate it,FRA will certainly have to consider the safety and success of PATCO,PATH's sibling in south Jersey.FRA has also approved limited use of OPTO on several regional freight lines in the midwest,so there's a precedent for it.
BTW-Ever noticed the small window opposite the Motorman's cab on the PA-3 and PA-4 cars? I doubt It's there for the scenic view!
I am trying to compile information on The Budd Company (& Transit America) with the hopes of publishing a book on this extraordinary car builder in the near future. If anyone has any photos of any Budd CTA cars, Miami subway cars, Baltimore MTA Cars, LIRR and Metro-North Budd M-series cars or NYCTA R-32 cars they would like to share, it would be greatly appreciated. If anyone has any stories about the delivery of any of these cars or any experiences at the Budd Company's Red Lion Plant in Philadelphia, I am interested.
I can be reached by e-mail at wfdurham@bellatlantic.net or by mail at the following address:
William F. Durham
111 Bosley Avenue
Cockeysville, MD 21030
Please include your name and address so I can give the proper credits. From one railfan to another, this will be a massive undertaking, but with your assistance it can be done. Thank you!
Was the R-110 ever intended to tour other lines, or was it exclusively for service on the A and the 2? I know that only specific maintenance shops are equipped to handle these trains, but a tour of the system may be a good idea, since riders of other lines would have a better chance of getting a ride.
The R-110B toured the entire B divion in 1992 and 1993. There are photos taken of the R-110B in Jamaica yard, elsewhere on this site. The purpose was to check its' operation on the entire system.
>>Was the R-110 ever intended to tour other lines<<
I would assume yes, since every stop in Brooklyn on the D has teh blue 110 signs for the conductor to point at for door openings. I have yet to ride the 110's, never do much 8th ave travel.
The B Division of NYCT has published summer light riding schedules for motormen and conductors to be effective June 28, running to Labor Day weekend. The A Division will keep their same schedules thru the summer due to the Lenox Ave. invert project.
Mid-day, evenings, & weekends on the J; and nights & weekends on the M shuttle: 4 car trains are operated. There is a very annoying and anti customer practice going on which the motorman can't do anything about since he has to stop at the 4 car marker: From Queens & Brooklyn going to Manhattan most 4 car markers are with the 8 at the end of the station. This causes passengers getting on at stations where the stairs are at the far rear of the station to have the last car stopping at the center of the station. At stations like Crescent St., Norwood Ave., Eastern Parkway and others on the J, and stations like Forest Ave., Wycoff Ave., Knickerbocker Ave., & Central Ave. on the M passengers coming up the stairs when the train is coming in have a long way to run. This is very inconvenient for them, and I hope nobody falls and injures themselves running for the train. Seneca Ave. on the M Manhattan bound is a particular "joke" since on a rainy day almost the whole train stops outside the overhead canopy. All this is done so the conductor has the same board to point to for both an 8 car & 4 car train.
I made a post concerning this issue on 4-car trains on the J line not to long ago. I'm still trying to get the full reason on why the line has 4-car trains all times except rush hours. I don't really mind the shorter trains at all; at least not yet. So far there is no overcrowding problem being that there are only four cars. But you do bring out an important point about where the trains are required to stop when the length of them are only four cars. There were changes made to where the car markers where located. Originally, I remember that the majority of the car markers where placed towards the middle of the station. Now they are located to where the "8" car marker is located. This is real problem to the elevated stations where the entrance/exits are at the ends of the platform. I've seen people including myself having to run to the middle of the station to board the last car of the train. I've started asking some conducters on the reason why there are shorter trains. I'll keep the SUBTALK informed.
The use of short trains is dictated by Operations Planning. They (the bean counters) make the decission and the divisions of Car Equipment and Rapid Transit Operations have to make it work. Why do they want trains cut? Cars are inspected every 10,000 miles. Routine inspection cost a significant amount of money in the form of man-power and material. If the fleet mileage is cut down, the number of inspections can be reduced. At the same time, empty subway cars use almost as much electricity to run as loaded ones. Therefore, if only 1/2 of the train runs, it uses 1/2 of the electricity, also saving money. Finally, there is the issue of safety. When four cars are used instead of eight, the conductor is better able to monitor the entire train. In addition, with more people in less cars, it is less likely that a crime will take place, and easier for the police to patrol. It is therefore safer to run shorter trains when service permits it.
Perhaps the Bean Counters at Operations Planning should take a ride on the J line and observe real passenger patterns. What would it take to simply move the four car marker to where it's more convenient for the customers (like under station canopies or closer to main entrance/exit stairways)? Then they can run shorter trains (with all the benefits you mention that I clearly agree with) and customers don't have to run 1/2 a platform to catch their train. Or maybe move the "off-hour waiting area" if its feasible.
--Mark
I would have to criticize Operations Planning for having workers move the "4" car markers to where the "8" car marker is located. To anyone who rides the line, on some stations typically between Eastern Pkwy and Crescent St, the markers are mounted on poles about a inch and a half in diameter. It's clearly visible that the "4" car sign was moved with the pole still remaining. All in all, this is a bad move by Oper. Planning.
-Garfield
I've always thought that cutting off peak trains were a good idea, but I've often wondered why it will happen for awhile and then stop. I can remember in the early 80's the D would routinely run 6-car R-40M/42 during late nights and then it seemed to stop one day. Another question is that when the D line had the R-68A's, at one time on weekends to 4-car trains - but the R-68's were on the D still ran full 8-car trains on the weekends. I'm still curious about that.
Most of my internet time is spent on this web site and i enjoy contributing & reading what others have to say. Does anyone know of a similar bus web site similar to this? E Mail me at MTrain 12 @ AOL>com.
Being on the J line that for most of the day they operate with only four cars, where in the world do they keep the extra cars that remain. Is the East New York yard that big in area to hold so much cars ??. It just boggles to where the extra cars are stored.
The J line lays up 3 trains at Canarsie Yard at night. They are there if the J line cuts or not. If the J line does cut, the extra cars are laid up at East New York Yard with 3 trains laid up at Fresh Pond Yard. Admittedly, this is a long way away, in addition additional personell must be hired. Short trains in addition to cutting down on car mileage, also cuts down on the vandalism, a big problem on the J&M. By the way, these cars remain at Canarsie & Fresh Pond all weekend. The biggest negative about laying up at Fresh Pond: the last trains cut and the first trains to be added come out of Fresh Pond , so the last train gets into Fresh Pond after 11:30 P.M., with the first train going back to Jamaica about 2:10 A.M. They do not lay up J's at Fresh Pond mid-days, but it is kind of weird that the M does not cut weekday mid-day and the J does. The J starts adding up about 4A.M. in order to be finished by 6 A.M. They don't lay up on the mainline because the neighbors complain of noise and they are prone to vandalism Finally, I have no problem with cutting, just the placement of 4 car markers.
At the top of the escalators at the PATH Terminal at the World Trade Center,
there is a sign that says "Midtown Service Running." Is it possible to ride
PATH from WTC to 33rd St. without traversing through the great state of NJ?
While it is not possible to go from the WTC to midtown on PATH without taking it to New Jersey first, they have operated trains from WTC, through NJ, then up 6th Ave. This service ran during the subway strike a while ago. I am not sure but I think this special train made stops only in Manhattan, passing through New Jersey stops.
JC
You could call it "Midtown INdirect".
This special service ran briefly during the NYC Transit strike in April 1980. Trains ran non stop from 33d St to WTC using both PATH tunnels, passing all stops in between. The NJ portion passed stops at Pavonia-Newport and Exchange Place. I used it at least once during that strike commuting between my home in Nassau County and my office at the World Trade Center. My normal LIRR/Flatbush to IRT #2/3 trip was obviously disrupted. The crowds using PATH were so heavy that it was easier to walk between WTC and either Penn Sta or Flatbush Terminal.
Of course, on any day it is possible to take a Journal Sq train from any 6th Ave Station to Pavonia/Newport or Grove St, and then change for a WTC bound train.
Spare us the sarcasm.
Why does my computer at home load nycsubway.org with a different masthead than my system at work?
I think Dave set the MastHead to load different pictures within it each time you access the main page. Everytime I access it now it's somewhat different.
--Mark
I don't know when David is going to break down and reveaql the pattern.
I assume that you are pointing to the same section of this site at both locations.
I noticed that:
a. Each Section, Historical...,Current...,etc. shows a different combo of photos, and
b. as Mark says there is a time element involved.
2 weeks ago I was seeing the bicentennial in the headings, I think Maps even had a double of this view....last week the bicentennial appeared to be mysteriously missing.
There is no pattern to the image loading. There are currently 24 images in the rotation and each page that has a full masthead will randomly pick 4 images each time you call it up (unless you've got that page cached locally).
There's no time element involved. Reload a few times on the page and you'll see that it changes. Netscape users will probably have to hit Shift-Reload to make it ignore the cache.
You shouldn't ever see the same image twice on the page. The script which chooses the 4 random images should not be able to pick the same one twice for a single page (unless I screwed up, of course).
All of the little images are cut from full-size images on the site and so far only include NYC subway stuff, no stuff from any of the other-city pages.
And, since I'm feeling especially generous today I'll tell you how to look at all of the different banner images on one page. Don't visit it if you feel that it would ruin the surprise.... if you really, really want to see them all, follow this link.
-Dave
Seriously Dave
I did encounter the bicentential side by side in the same mast head about two weeks ago......I even asked you in a post if I won anything for the occurance
> I even asked you in a post if I won anything for the occurance
Nope.
HEY! Stick in an SIR image!
-Hank :)
Has the R110A been yanked from service for good, or will they make a comeback? Also, how is the R110B holding up? I take it they don't brake down as often, since they are still in service.-Nick
Here's where I know I've got this subway stuff too embedded in my brain. The whole time that the Seinfeld characters were stuck in traffic coming back to Manhattan from the Mets game on the Grand Central, then into Manhattan via (I assume Queensborough Bridge or Queens-Midtown Tunnel, then through the traffic jam because of the Puerto Rican Day Parade down 5th Avenue, I thought: If they had just taken the subway there and back, they would have been home in a "half hour to 40 minutes."
I’d take the subway, however, how much commercial revenue would a 40-minute subway ride from Flushing generate?
Oh, I would tend to think that Jerry Seinfeld could milk a **lot** of humor out of a subway ride ("Did you ever wonder...?"), especially with the whole "gang" traveling together. As to commercial opportunities, with a subway scene, you can do some serious product placement with the ad placards on the subway cars.
They did have an episode that took place on the subway...down to Brooklyn (Coney Island?) if I recall.
I missed Seinfeld last week, but if they used the GCP from Shea then they would probably cross the Triborough Bridge.
Well, I don't know for sure that they used the GCP but they might have taken it to the cutoff for the southbound BQE, then gotten off at the exit that leads to the 59 St. Bridge to avoid the toll (if George was making the decision), or switched from the BQE to the LIE and the Midtown Tunnel (if Jerry felt like splurging). Somehow they had to end up trying to get across town in Midtown in order to get stuck by the parade. See why the subway is so much easier? :-)
Also that one-way street looked so phony to me and with a big clear sign saying ONE WAY DO NOT ENTER... When's the last time anyone ever saw a clear sign like that in NYC???
I was talking to a friend iwho is a "buff"(notice the use of the quotes) and we had a dumb little disagreement. In the episode when the gang was on the subway, in an episode appropriately titled "The Subway", Jerry went to Coney Island. Now he once said he lives at 121 W. 81st St. So wouldn't he have taken the 'B' train, not the 'N' as my friend, the "buff", says?
Also, there was an episode when Elaine had to take care of an invalid for a reason I don't remember and said she took the "RR". Was "RR" service running in '92?
And finally, though I live in Jersey, I'm far enough away from New York that I don't visit often so I wanted to know if the Queens Plaza station really is underground or elevated, as shown in the episode when Elaine stole George's dad's TV Guide?
Needless to say I'm a *real* buff, a "Seinfeld" fan and will be prostrate with grief Thursday night:(
According to my map, if he didn't leave the neighborhood, the only Coney Island bound train that stops at 81st is the 'B', so you were right.
Now, on the way, does it go to Vandelay Industries or Kramerica?:):):):):):)
Thank you!! That ought to show that loud-mouth:)
Now, why not take the 'A' to the Rockaways to see George, the marine biologist, at work:)
The RR train has not been the "RR" since 1985. It is now the R, but some people, including my mother, still refer to it as the double-R.
On the subject of the Plaza, there are two stations which sound very similar--Queens Plaza, which is underground, and Queensboro Plaza, which is elevated. If I remember correctly in that show, the conductor said "Queensboro Plaza", but showed an underground station (it was really just the studio, obviously).
P.S. - There is no Gyro stand at Queensboro Plaza!
There is no Gyro stand at Queens Plaza (underground) either. I had thought they said Queens Plaza at the "Gyro Stop" on the show. I guess I'll have to watch it next time it's on. Most likely because it looked underground I wasn't even paying attention to what they said and incorrectly assumed it was Queens Plaza.
More Seinfeld stuff: My brother read in the Albany Times-Union once that the place Jerry's parents live is modeled after the Whisper Walk section of Boca Raton (the area NE of the intersection of Lyons Rd. and Yamato Rd.) because it's where friends of his parents live.
Coincidentally Whisper Walk is where my parents have lived since 1988, though they are not friends of his parents (real or fictional). But my parents sure act like his fictional parents. Elaine, on the other hand, has worn Orioles stuff at Yankee games because Julia Louis-Dreyfus grew up in Bethesda, MD and it's hard to get Washington Senators baseball hats anymore.
Finally, on Mad About You, during the opening b&w photos at the beginning, I believe Paul and Jamie are sitting on the steps of an entrance to the Union Sq. station, but I can't tell which entrance it is but it's probably one of the ones in the square, like 16&Bway. In fact, Paul Reiser grew up around Stuyvesant Town just a few blocks from where the characters live (12 St and 5th Avenue).
I guess I'd better get back to work...
Stop slacking and get to work:):)
The gyro stand was allegedly in Queens Plaza subway station, not the el stop.
Also, when the subway episode plays again, listen carefully to the beginning, when Kramer gives directions on the best way to get to Coney Island. It's certainly not a one-train ride from 81st St!
BUT THEN!!! . . . . Elaine says, "Can't you just take the B train to Coney Island?" Kramer says, "Well . . . yeah".
In the "City and Region" section of the Sunday Philly Inquirer, there was a two page article on the rebuilding of the Market Street El and shows a map of the area and what the new single column supports will look like. On the second page there is a photo of a woman sitting inside an M-4. Also in the Arts and Entertainment section, there is a large photo of people on an M-3 car.
I don't live in Philly but get the Inqiurer here just outside Trenton. I read the article(I love the city edition) and saw that it said that the MF el was completed in 1904. The first IRT line was, but the MF el was still under construction. It wasn't finished until 1907(actually opened).
I haven't been to Philly in a long time. What did they do to the Frankford side?
I feel for the residents who have to deal with the construction.
I also saw the pixx of the interiors.
Not bad for the new trains, but the older ones......
The Frankford El was redecked and rehabbed over a long construction period which began in the mid-80's and ended a few years ago.
The stretch from the Delaware River to 69th Street opened in 1907, including a long-abandoned elevated ramp from the old Front Street portal to the Delaware Avenue waterfront. The extension from Center City to Frankford opened in 1922. It was entirely elevated running along Front Street, Kensington Ave., and Frankford Ave.
The Delaware Avenue spur was abandoned in the late 1930's. In 1955, the elevated portion from the Schuylkill to 46th Street was replaced with a new subway under Market Street. About 20 years ago, the short stretch along Front Street was replaced with the median r.o.w. along I-95 including the new Spring Garden Station.
Here's the URL for the article:
http://www.phillynews.com/inquirer/98/May/10/city/TRAK10.htm
On Friday, I received my issue of the Philadelphia Chapter’s of NRHS newsletter, "Cinders". In the section regarding SEPTA, the writer noted that the running times for the new M4 cars are four minutes longer the "older" M3’s they are replacing. Times quoted were 41" for M4 vs. 37" for M3 equipment. I know from experience riding the CTA rail lines that OPTO does increase running time. However, the MKT-FKD line is made up almost entirely of "side" platform vs. "island" platform stations found on CTA's Blue and Red Lines. I can’t understand why new equipment should consume four minutes more running time. Is the rate of acceleration of the M4’s less than the M3’s they are replacing?
The article goes on to say that because of the lengthened running time and uncertainty of a strike, SEPTA rescinded A/B skip-stop service for a period of two weeks. The snippet doesn’t elaborate on reasons for running time differences or if A/B skip-stop service has resumed. The article was probably written in late April.
Could be slower acceleration, longer braking distances, slower top speed or something as simple as more time to close doors and relase the brakes (automatic buzzers, chimes, "the doors are now closing" messages etc.) 5 to 20 seconds per stop can add up if there are a lot of stops.
I think AB service with the same headwyas uses 30% more train sets (although they might be shorter) and operators. Does anyone know how that works out??
The innovator of A/B skip-stop service, the CTA, found that operating trains under this plan reduces car and corresponding crew requirements. When A/B skip-stop was in full operation, approximately 6 AM to 9 PM, on the heavy North-South (Howard-Englewood (A)-Jackson Park (B)), it was estimated car requirements were reduced by 32 cars (four - eight car trains) during the rush hour period. These economies come as trains don’t have to brake to a stop and accelerate at every station. The Ravenswood, a rush hour only A/B operation, was said to save one, or even possibly two six car trains during the period A/B skip-stop was operated.
Car requirements did increase on the Ravenswood (Brown) Line when A/B service ended. However, to be honest, the line also went OPTO at the same time which, as we all know, lengthens the running time on a route.
For years the CTA has been "lubricating" the rails at curves in the right-of-way. This lubricating device is located just prior to a most severe curves, which there a numerous, on the elevated portions of the system. This device pumps a black lubrication onto the "flange way" when each train passes, thus coating the wheel flange and the running rail. This action reduces the friction and thereby reduces the noise on these sections of track. The drawback is that these devices are located on the elevated structures and care must be taken restrict the lubrication from dripping on the traffic or ground below.
These devices have been in use for years on the CTA rapid transit. I’m sure they haven’t been the only rapid train operator with the idea.
NYCT also uses them throughout the system.
In Toronto's Davisville Yard which was the first yard to open in 1954 and was near several apartment buildings, each time a train enters the yard from the mainline, a fine spray would commence at track level. I suspect this was meant to curtail much of the squealing.
Another method the TTC uses is on streetcar tracks where loops are located in residential areas, a small pipe is attached the highest point of the loop and water is pumped in. The drawback here is that the roadway around it is always wet. I think they should set up the pump to be triggered when a steetcar enters the curve. A lot of water tends to be wasted.
> Davisville Yard
Ian, thanks for the information. Is the Davisville Yard still in use. I think I remember on my last trip to Toronto in 1993 there were no trains being stored there anymore. Is the yard closed?
Secondly, on the water used on the streetcar tracks, although it seems to be a waste of water, the use of water is more friendly to the environment that the use of oil-based lubricants.
I've seen sprinklers between the rails at South Ferry #1 and at the northend of Southbound 42nd Street #4/5 express track.
Also on the #6 City Hall loop track. (Yes, you CAN stay on board around the loop; please watch out the front window and don't ride between the cars. But you can only get off the train there to see the lubricators when on an official NY Transit Museum tour!)
I was under the ex toronto PCC 4617 this week and found a divice that was installed to lube the flanges mounted under the tail of the car. Did they put these on all of the PCC rebuilds or was this just a test car? I do not remember seeing it on the other cars I have see.
NYCT engineering has been testing flange lubricators (dry lubricant as opposed to grease) on Side Dump car #0D437. The purpose of the test is to control the 'hunting' of the trucks on curves but it'll be interesting to see if it also controls noise.
Yes Jim, the Davisville Yard is still around. It did look like its end was near in 1993. Apparently a retaining wall next the mainline needed replacing and the tracks were torn up to my horror! The much larger Wilson Yard could easily handle all trains on the Yonge-University-Spadina line. However, since then the TTC has begun storing old H-1 train sets which are being scrapped. They remove all usable parts before the cars are loaded onto flatbed trucks and hauled to a scrapyard in Hamilton, Ontario about 70 km west of Toronto. The yard is also being used for the new T-1 cars currently being delivered. They are inspected there before being put into service.
The yard will again see regular train movements once the new Sheppard line is open in 2002. Trains on that line will connect with the Yonge line at Sheppard Station and continue down Yonge Street to Davisville Yard where they will be stored. This new line isn't as long as the others so Davisville will easily be able to accommodate the trains required for it. The nice thing about the Davisville Yard is that is is entirely visible from passing trains and from Davisville Station itself.
The Greenwood Yard on the Bloor-Danforth line, near where I live, provides great views of train movements where it surfaces. Unfortunately, Wilson Yard is so big and even though you pass it when travelling between Wilson and Downsview Stations, there is no vantage point (like an overpass) to view the goings on there!
Ian - thanks for the update!
Ian - When I first visited Toronto, early 1972, Davisville and Greenwood were the only two subway yards on the system. The Bloor-Danforth Line was almost new.
I was blown away by the PCC’s on the streetcar system. Back then, MU cars operated on the QUEEN with cars in the 4400 and 4600 (ex Cleveland and Louisville) series. My first visit to Davisville Yard was at night, and it was snowing. The yard was full of G-class and M1’s cars. The yard was easy to view from the vantage point at the station and surrounding vicinity.
The frequency of service was unheard of in Philadelphia I lived. For the electric traction fan it was HEAVEN. It still isn’t a bad place to visit if you want intense service on streetcar and rapid transit.
Toronto is heaven for transit buffs all right, especially if you're into streetcars. Speaking of which, the first streetcar I ever saw in my life was a Toronto PCC (actually, lots of them) in 1963. Put it this way: Toronto is to streetcars the way New York is to subways.
Back in 1963 there were still many, about 500, PCC’s left on the PTC (Philadelphia) working thirteen full time routes and one rush hour only (#62) route. BS, before SEPTA, the PTC did try to put good service out on the street. However, the frequency of car service didn’t seem to approach that of the TTC.
Yes we're indeed fortunate that Toronto decided to keep its streetcar fleet early in the 70s. In fact, the TTC is actually increasing routes. Last summer's opening of the Spadina streetcar line (Route 510) brought streetcars back to that avenue after a 31 year absence. The route begins at the Spadina Station on the Bloor line, with an underground loop to connect to the two subway lines which serve that station. It travels south on Spadina on a more or less right-of-way (although this has been the scene of numerous accidents with cars since its opening because the city didn't want the TTC to put up barriers between the tracks and traffic lanes so all it got was a slightly raised running area which cars can easily negotiate - typical political decision!) Anyway, it then connects to the Harbourfront line which opened in 1990, which begins, again in an underground loop, from Union Station, south on Bay St., turning west and surfacing to run west on Queen's Quay to Spadina.
There are plans in the works to provide a westerly route along Queen's Quay from Spadina to the Canadian National Exhibition/Ontario Place grounds, where it would connect with the BATHURST (511) cars. This apparently has high priority with the TTC.
There have been plans to reintroduce streetcars on three other routes where tracks are still partially in place, but funding cuts may curtail those lofty plans.
The neat thing about the system is that downtown many of the streets still contain trackage that no longer is in revenue service, but often gets used when shortturning cars. When the trolley pole passes a junction in the seldom used wires, the result is quite a fireworks display!
The PCCs are now gone (although I spotted a couple in the Connaught Car Barn Yard recently). They have been replaced by the newer CLRVs (Canadian Light Rail Vehicle) and the even newer ALRVs (Articulated Light Rail Vehicle). The latter are used on the QUEEN (501) and BATHURST (511) routes. Try sitting at the very back of these very long cars when they're making a left hand turn. I'm amazed they stay on the tracks! Lots o' fun.
The TA was also experimenting with "ring dampners." A ring dampner is a piece of flexible metal that is inserted into a hole or grove cut into the piece of metal that vibrates and makes the unwanted noise -- in this case the wheel of the cars. It works by deadening the vibrations caused by the wheel as it slips across the rail. I don't know if they are really being used or how effective they are.
--mhg
This is (unfortunately) a job-related inquiry -- assistance will be appreciated. Were transit lines (subway, commuter or light rail) built or extended in association with new baseball stadiums constructed in the last decade, especially in Baltimore, Cleveland, Denver and Toronto? Were there any existing stations within two blocks of Camden Yards, Jacobs Field, Coors Stadium, or the Skydome?
Baltimore: The Metro (subway) was already 3 blocks away and running for 10 years when Camden Yards was proposed. The Central Light Rail Line opened at the same time as Camden Yards and was coordinated with it. When the Orioles were at Memorial Stadium, there were plans to extend the Metro through Johns Hopkins Medical Center north to it. Once the Orioles moved downtown, plans to extend the Metro past JHMC were canceled.
Cleveland: The 3 rail lines (really just one set of tracks in town) were already there for many decades. However an elevated covered walkway was built connecting Terminal Tower (now Tower City) to the new Jacobs Field, so people would not have to walk through the back streets and possibly suffer unpleasant consequences.
The new Toronto stadium is near (but a healthy 1/3 mile walk from) a streetcar line and a subway line, both of which have been there for decades. A new streetcar line was built, some of it underground and most above ground that maybe gets one a little closer to the stadium, but that is only in the last year or so. The Skydome is already about 8 years old. Also the GO commuter railroad line has a station right at the SkyDome (like at Fenway and Shea).
St. Louis's Busch stadium is many years old, but the new light rail line goes right up to it.
The Philadelphia Broad St. Subway was extended to Pattison Avenue 25 years ago when Phila. Veterans Stadium was about to open.
Montreal's current baseball stadium is on the Green Line #1, and the old stadium, Jarry Park, used to be on the Orange #2 line.
The ghost of Ebbet's Field is next to the Prospect Park station of the Brighton Line. [I couldn't help mentioning it. :-) ]
Hope this helps. Probably others can provide more details of Toronto and Denver.
And, of course, the ghost of the Polo Grounds is next to 155th St.-8th Ave. on the D and, now, the B.
Here in Denver, the light rail line comes to within six blocks of Coors Field, plus two more blocks over. If you get off at 18th St., it's two blocks to 20th, then left six blocks to Blake St. It's still a lengthy walk, though. It would be nice to run a spur line right up to the ballpark through the Platte River valley.
Both the White sox and Cub are on the red line but "for Da Bears ya gota ride dabus" (Specials from State St.)
When Milwaukee County Stadium opened they used a portion of the abandonded rappid transit line to run stadium specials on the Route 10 Streetcar line. Thye packed them for the Braves World Series Games in Milwaukee. (Who did they play?)
The Milwaukee Braves played the Yankees in the 1957 and 1958 World Series. The Braves won it all in '57, 4 games to 3, with Lew Burdette winning three of the four games. The Yankees came from being down 3 games to 1 in 1958 to take the Fall Classic that year. Mickey Mantle remembered that after winning in '58, the Yankees didn't get so much as a ticker tape parade afterwards. They were expected to win.
Actually, in the case of Baltimore, in the original plans in the late 60's early 70's, there was to be an altogether different line that would have gone north from Charles Center along St. Paul St. that would have interesected w/ Memorial Stadium. Originally, the Johns Hopkins Branch was to never even come close, this was only an afterthought when the city realized that thier dream of a multi-line system wasn't going to come to fruition...as for Camden Yards, the light rail was designed to incorporate the stadium in its plans, in fact, they are supposedly going to put another station adjacent to the stadium being built for the Ravens.
In Washington, RFK was there long before the Metro, so they designed Metro to give access to the stadium...it just kills me though w/ the new Redskins stadium that they didn't incorporate mass transit into the plans, the closest thing they have are shuttle buses from several Metro stations
The Muni Metro Extension in San Francicsco happens to run by the front door the new Pacific Bell Park which the Giants will call home beginning in 2000. The 3rd/King Sts. Station is the second stop before the end of the line (4th Townsend/Caltrain Depot.). Eventually this line will be extended along Third Street to the San Mateo County line at Tunnel and Beatty Roads (Bayshore Caltrain Station). In the future if the 49ers Stadium/Mall is completed, a spur line from Third and Gilman has been mentioned as has an underground extension beneath Third Street from the South of Market area to Stockton and Washington in Chinatown.
While not within your 10 year parameter, the Oakland Coliseum is adjacent BART. Also note historically, 1Soldiers Field Chicago had an IC suburban train station with football special service, 2 MARC ran baseball specials to Camden Sta. until the grinches at CSX balked.
CSX not only created a living hell for those in DC coming to the game, but also smashed some dreams for those that live a good distance away, yet, would often take an excursion train into town for a game....case in point.......the Western Maryland Scenic Railway based in Cumberland would run O's trains until CSX (a major employer there) basically said F.You due to liability reasons---HA!!
This mornings normal traffic flow on Kings Highway and East 16th was disrupted by darting would be MTA New York City Transit Subway customers as they ran betwen traffic to the other side of Kings Highway to gain entrance to the D/Q lines.
The normal 24 Hour entrance at Kings Highway D/Q Subway stop had NO metrocard service of any kind. Each turnstile was plastered with a sign instructing passangers to go accross the street to the other entrance that is normaly only open 7am-9am 4pm-7pm M-F (open today only at 6:00am)or to use a TOKEN. The dual booth (one window closed) was plastered with TOKEN ONLY sale signs. Most would be customers also strove to ignore the pleas of Mayor Rudy by JayWalking right betwen the two entrances across Kings Highway and not walking to the corner. I wonder if any injuries could be blamed on the metrocard (not that the press would think of blaming the public for Jaywalking).
Will this stuff work come July 4th???
I don't know...
As a station agent I am sorry about the trouble. However, have you ever went to an ATM that was down, It happens. The MetroCard system uses a computer in each station (hidden wheer it cant be seen-even by us). In the Booth we use a terminal to access the computer which accesses the main computer. It is possible that the station's computer or computer phone line was down.
The poor agent in the booth--the agent has to face a booth audit! (I had one Friday Night when my terminal crashed at Columbus Circle)
**opnions expressed are my own and not those of MTA or NYCT
I'm suprised at how reliable most TBT's are in our booths most of the time I take advantage of how smooth everything goes and like you say just as atm's do go down we're held to a higher standard and have to be avail for the poor customer who only buys/adds 3.00 to a card. I guess mta won't loose too much money on these folks(he he!!). On the other hand the unlimited passes will give customers one thing over the transfers now available with metrocard ability for three or more leg transfers ride up or downtown transfer to a bus crosstown and reboard another subway!! the customer who now must use two buses to reach a subway now will have seamless connection. another station agent tells me we'll also be accepting $100 bills? we haven't even been given counterfeit detectors for the fifties we started accepting last august... if thats not bad enough some clerks have told me they've even been getting counterfeit$1.00 bills how low do people go???
One of the reasons I can't wait for the unlimted rides is a normal once every two week trip I would like to make. I take two buses to Bay Ridge total trip time MAX 30 minutes, most times 20mintues. Then a staten island bus for another 30 minutes. Total trip time is an hour on average.
My one fare way is D to R (40 Min)then the ferry and if you miss the ferry (30 min) you have an automatic wait of 30 minutes and the SIRT (30min) to New Dorp. Total 1hr 40 to 2 hour plus.
Try making that trip around 2AM coming from the Bronx, or at midnight from Queens (My girl, and the Mets) miss the boat at those hous, it's almost a 1-hour wait.
But like I said once before, there seems to be an exception to the system built in for people who swipe on SI, where sometimes you get 3 hours to make connections.
-Hank
When an atm goes down, it tends to be just 1 atm. When the station computer goes down that should pretty much knock out all the turnstiles.
Since the TA is phasing out tokens, what would happen if a station is so afflicted? Would they simply take money at a gate? Or would they use a portable card reader?
The current method, used on the bus when the farebox goes belly-up (it's happend to me thrice already, once on an X-bus) it's free ride time. I suppose this is the best course of action, because it maintains customer goodwill and keeps people from saying "@!#!$@! METROCARD!!!"
-Hank
Speaking of free ride time, when the Mets won the World Series in 1969 (I got home from school just in time to catch the ninth inning of Game 5), a Madison Ave. bus driver got so giddy he announced, "Everybody on free!". I wonder if that stood well with his superiors.
Anthony,
Has the MTA adopted a policy of no re-fills on MetroCards ? I've experienced them hanging on to them recently. Also I've seen boxes/ bins being installed near "Readers" for discarded cards.
This would make since for "time" vs. "value" based cards. Also have they installed any of the machines to dispense cards ?
Mr t__:^)
This is the official policy as I understand it (as of 4/98)
The time based cards (daily, weekly, monthly) can *not* be refilled with the exception of senior citizen/disabled which can have up to two time periods on the card at one time. When one expires, they can add another.(Until the card itself expires)
Now the regular cards: For per ride cards (called value based cards) you can and they encourage refilling of these cards. For time-base cards (unlimited daily, weekly, monthly, express bus monthly) there is *-*no** refill.
The bin for discarded metrocards is to reduce litter. Many people do not refill the cards and throw them away. If you will notice near the turnstiles or metrocard readers there are lots of cards on the ground. I've seen homeless pick up literally twenty or more of these and then copme to the booth with a complaint that "my card does not work". I check the card on my computer and find it has no money. They then tell me :"try this one" and on and on. I finally tell them no more than 10
(even with combining cards the limit is 5, with our option of 5 more if we have no line).
**the following is personal opinion and not that of MTA or NYCT***:
In practice I have noticed that when a card is used alot or gets old the card tends to misread. I have transferred tons of old cards to new cards (and in fact the policy encourages us to do so in misread problems)
Thanks for the info,
I guess what I've seen is just a agent reacting to customer preference vs. TA policy, i.e. keeping the liquidated MetroCards.
One thing I would add about the difference between the "value" & "time" cards is:
Value cards are good for up to 4 customers, e.g. "passback", this includes Transfers being put on the card.
Time cards are for one customer, unless U want to wait for the card to allow the second swipe (15 min).
Mr t__:^)
So does this mean that the three entrances at Kings Highway would have three different Computers?? Sounds like another waste of hardware.
I do not know specifics of this station, however just because there are three entrances does not mean 3 computers. There could be a router (or something similar)that lets each entrance "talk" to the station's one computer.
I am not a turnstile maintainer nor have I worked this station but the MetroCard system relies on several pieces talking to each other. If one piece fails then the location is down. If the "router" or location's hardware failed then that location only would be down.
**opinions expressed are my own and not those of MTA or NYCT***
I know- it is frustrating!!
A subway station with several booths such as union sqare usually have one area controller which is the brains for that station. information is stored in this unit such as fare card sold and such before downloaded to livingston st. station controller up on the tbt means communication from area controller to livingston is live and we can sell fare media. each station has a area controller which operates tbt's for that station(turnstile array, passenger area unit) including tbts.
Anthony,
I believe the more precise answer is: Each Subway Stn/Bus Depot is a "Depot" where a DC (Depot Computer) exists. It can run by itself, for a time, without connection to the AC (Area Contl). So a probl can exist at Turnstile, Probe Stn (bus), comm line or AC. If the DC fails then the Stn is dead. At the bus div. they have 1/2 a spare DC & assume maint. has something similar for Subway stn to get them back up & running in short order.
Other note, the MetroCard itself can fail, e.g. if U bend it in half, or it gets a bad scratch or gouge. In addition magnets will give it a bad hair day too.
Mr t__:^)
P.S. I'm NOT an official source of info either.
in regarding to the subway aspect of Metrocard the area controller manages info from turnstile array and passenger info units and token booth terminals. An area controller is housed in an end cabinet of the turnstile array for that station. In instances where more than one fare control area exists ie: uptown & downtown booths for one station if communications are lost betw area controller to Livingston st where the main AFC computer is located sales of fare cards cannot be made. as for power problems each turnstile and area controller have uninterupible power supply. why fare cards can't be sold without communication i'm not sure....
Anthony,
I find it strange that they call the computer at a stn a AC (Area Controller). Eye know there's two sub-sys: Rail (subway) & Surface (bus). For Surface it's called a DC (Depot Computer). That DC is connected directly to the main AC. We can operate "off-line" via a portable computer & plug that laptop into the DC when it comes back up. The DC can also function without the AC, which happens every night when the AC is updating itself.
P.S. For those interested eye can tell the difference between a "subway" transfer and a "bus" transfer, i.e. the MetroCard records it differently.
Mr t__:^)
Say Mr. T:
I didn't know that multiple Users on a Metro Pass had multiple transfers available to them. I thought you lost all but the last if the card was used for multiple subway fares.
Next time I,m in the City with my wife, I'll try it.
Anthony, et. al,
Eye have a PS to my reply, the info comes from a source at the TAs Livingston Plaza office:
The PC for the Subway sys is called a "Station Computer", so for Surface it's called DC, & underground it's a SC. There are several ACs because there are several mainframes, and therein lies the reason the sys shuts dwn from 11 to 3 so copies can be made to all the mainframes.
At each Subway stn there may be one or more SCs and it doesn't relate to a Token Booth, so more then one TB can be tied to one SC. e.g. 34th & 42nd St there are several SCs at each.
Mr t__:^)
I don't see it as a waste of hardware. Look at this situation. one computer crashed, and another entrance had to be used. Redundancy is good in a case like this. I would assume, however, that a local power outage would mean free rides for all, because the turnstiles are not purely mechanical anymore?
and if you have more than 2 entrances, you may only need 2 computers....
-Hank
No need to appoligize, it was a simple walk across the street. I just liked the fuss it caused. I guess having 3 computers is a good thing. The other two entrances were not effected. Otherwise I wonder if the TA would have done with no option but cash sale of a token...
There is a precident that if the bus card reader is not working people ride for free, will that carry over to the subway if a station can not accept metrocards?? What about student passes? I hope the TA writes rules for all this before they get rid of the token (and lets the public know).
Before I was employed by the NYCT, I went to the E 180 2/5 Station after a visit to the Bronx Zoo and here too- Tokens only and maintainers actively working to restore the station. I made the comment to the effect "OK, I'll find another station" (not angry-ATMs, drink Machines also go down) and they told me to enter for free!
I was on a bus where the farebox 'crashed', and I got a free ride on an x-bus. So when I transfered to the subway, I paid the regular $1.50 fare....no free transfer, but why would I expect one? I got a freebie due to a TA-error, and it was then 'time to pay my dues' :)
If you get on for free, and usually use a transfer for your trip, why expect the whole trip to be free?
-Hank
Last night on the news, there was yet again some more info on the plans to re-build Philadelphia's Maket-Frankford El. There was a sort of festival of transit in the city at 69th Street Terminal yesterday(I wasn't there) and there were some artists depictions of what the new structure would look like. The stations will look totally different than your conventional elevated station. They will be shaped like octagons(yes, octagons) and will look something like this:<||>. The arrows are the platforms for either isde and the two lines are the tracks. The El will surprisingly not have side guardrails(a topic discussed at length recently).
Of course there was a mistake a la "Long Island Incident".
In the introductory graphic they showed a picture of a Chicago Budd 2400 for the
Market-frankford El!
I just picked that out.
So I breathlessly await next springs new construction and also introduce my son, Kevin who will be joining our little circle.
See you on the subways:)
I read the newspaper storey about the 69th st portion of the el. It looks very nice. My question is why didn/t they do the Franfort end the same way?
First, the big reason behind re-doing the el is that it is pushing a century in years without major re-modeling of any kind. Remember, the FRANKFORD section of the El wasn't complete until 1927, but the rest of the MFSE was completed in 1907-1908, so it would have about 20 years less wear and tear. Also the new M-4's are coming and I'm sure the Frankford El was adapted to accomodate these new trains so of course the Market St. El must as well. The structure is falling apart. I see welders along the El often and don't even get me started on the tracks. So you can see why. Maybe not as to why the Frankford wasn't COMPLETELY re-built but re-vamped, as I say, for the future.
A detail - the Frankford El opened for service in '22. It was under construction from about late '15 until then and work shut down for a period during WW I.
On the Frankford El, the deck was the main problem. The column supports were fine and this is why they were retained, albeit with some rehab. There were always questions about the stability of the El and this even resulted in the many slow orders in the early 70's. However, when the segment between the old portal and north of Fairmount station was abandoned in '77, engineers decided to load test it to see how much the structure could bear. The El supported over six times its design load (and, keep in mind, structures of its period were always overdesigned greatly) before any hint of failure was detected.
On the Market St side, as you noted, additional years of wear have taken their toll. The columns do not have substantial foundations and are located in very vulnerable positions with respect to vehicular traffic (presenting a major liability for other reasons in today's litigation-conscious society). SEPTA at first considered a new deck on the same support columns but quickly moved to complete structural replacement for good reasons.
It's a shame they're going to completely replace the stations on the West Philly Side of the El. I always thought they were very tasteful, adding modern features but still maintaining the basic design of the old stations. (Except for 60th Street, which was done earlier--that one they can burn for all I care.) The Frankford stations are the same way in a somewhat more modern way. Also, I'm going to miss the cute little station at Millbourne:-)
Don't fret too much just yet. I would bet that, while the new stations will be modern, they will retain the flavor of the current ones moreso than the attempt at the 60th St "space station" (my description) does.
Hello.
I live in Philadelphia and would like to know if the MTA issues school tokens to middle and high schools in New York.
In Philadelphia, Septa issues school tokens to middle and high schools and work like this: it gets you on any Septa vehicle like a regular token, but with it you get a free transfer instead of paying the extra 40 cents and only children can use it. Any adult will be stopped by the booth clerk and if you are in school(actually under 18) and don't look like it, the clerk will ask for verification or they will not honor it. The other condition is that you can only use it during weekday rush hours. It is invalid from: 9:00 to 3:00 and from 7:00 to 6:00 am(although Septa all but shuts down after 11:00) and it cannot be used on weekends or holidays. A little restrictive but that's how it works. Is there something like that or a reduced MetroCard fare?
The MTA issues student metrocard to elementary, middle, and high schools students that live a certain distance away their school. The student metrocard gives students three fares per day that can be used on subways and buses (free transfers from bus to bus, bus to subway, and subway to bus is included). The pass is valid Monday through Friday (including most holidays)from 5:30 A.M.-8:30 A.M.
Thank You. In Philly, school tokens are only issued to students who live more than 2 miles away from school.
Students attending school in the City of Baltimore (and surrounding suburbs of Baltimore County, Maryland, pay 95 cents with their school [or Maryland MTA-issued student] ID card. Said student(s) then obtain a student ticket good for 90 minutes of connecting travel to/from school. Except on the Central Light Rail Line, these students can also present a dated ticket (issued by their school) in lieu of the 95-cent cash fare.
Where can I obtain track maps for the: Market Frankford el, the Broad Street subway and the subway/surface trolleys? If there is a URL I'd like to know.
FYI ---
A book that was published many years ago (I think in 1978 or 1979) had track maps for all the systems you mentioned. It's called "Delaware Valley Rails" and I think the author's name is either John Dawson or John Pawson, but I'm not sure. I believe the book also has track maps of the PATCO Lindenwold High-Speed Line, the Norristown High Speed Line (Route 100), the Media and Sharon Hill Trolley Lines (Routes 101 and 102) and the surface streetcar network within the City of Philadelphia which was active at the time. There were also route maps (but not actually track maps) of the entire commuter rail system prior to the massive Center City Commuter Tunnel project. These maps showed stations, electric substations, electrified vs. non-electrified track, etc. I seem to remember the PATCO map had a "before Woodcrest" and "after Woodcrest" map, so the book must be from the late 1970's. The only way I know of getting a hold of this book would be to go to a rare or used book dealer either in Center City or at some railroading hobby shop, since it's almost certainly out-of-print. Maybe "amazon.com" might have something about it. Good luck! (As an aside, does anyone know where a copy of the commuter rail history called "Next Stop, Grand Central" by Stan Fischler is available for sale?)
This morning there was emergency trackwork due to some of these cables dangling towards the tracks of the Downtown A train.
My questions:
1-What are these cables
2- If they are so important, why cant they be placed underground (covered accessway) or in conduit. I have noticed several open cut, embankment and el lines that have covered accessway .
For those of you outside the city who don't know, the taxis went on strike today to protest more stringent regulations. The big loser -- those traveling to and from LaGuardia Airport and Manhattan, a highly taxi-dependent and heavily trafficed route. Just think -- if the Astoria line had been extended two blocks north and then two miles east through an industrial area to the airport, this would not have been a problem.
IDIOTS!!! Why will NYC, with the biggest transit system, end up the only large city in the country without a rail connection between the airport and the CBD.
Actually, the biggest losers may turn out to be the cabbies themselves. My understanding is that they are protesting the traffic crackdowns by the Giuliani administration.
But, ask anyone who was around midtown today and they'll tell you that the streets were a pleasure to be on. No horns, no cabs creating three lanes where there should be one, etc.
Giuliani wins another battle.
Funny you should mention that. The number of cabs in Manhattan has been fixed since the 1930s by a limited number of "medalians." Free marketeers often demand that the city lift the cartel and issue more. But the medalians are traded on a open market, and cab companies have tens of thousands of dollars invested in each. This financial interest, plus the environmental goal of restricting taxis to force people onto the subway, has always defeated the issuance of more medilians.
If people decide they are better off without the cabs, perhaps the city will reduce rather than increase their number.
traffic and pollution would improve if there were fewer ccabs on the streets period. however holding cab drivers to a different standard while looking the other way for other motorists isn't right. okay yes to drug testing and probation period but 89% of the motorists on NYC violate traffic rules.
The cab companies have well over $100,000 invested in each medallion. I think the going price for one is something like $187,000.
The companies must recover this money somehow; they do so by charging higher fees to drivers to lease their taxis than they otherwise would. But taxi fares are set by city regulations, and are comparable to those in other cities. The result is that the drivers make less, since that share of the fares that goes to pay off the medallions would otherwise go to the drivers. Which means that the people willing to take jobs as taxi drivers are more poorly trained, desperate people than would otherwise be the case. Hence, a lower quality of service.
All this is true. The data (based on unemployment insurance records) show the number of employees in the taxi industry falling from thousands in the early 1980s to practically nothing today. They have become self-employed contractors who rent their cabs, then fight to cover expenses and earn a profit. With fares held down, they work longer hours to earn a living. The result is low taxi fares, low quality, and insane drivers.
On the other hand, someone I work with who claims to know says the cabbies earn $90,000 and report $15,000.
Just as an experiment, I'd like to see some of the medalians converted to "orange cab" medalians. Orange cabs would have to be late model cars driven by employees on salary who pass stricter tests, have air conditioning, and be kept impeccibly clean. And they would carry a higher fare. Would people pay extra?
For me, the existing cost of a cab is a luxury. We've taken a cab perhaps five times in 15 years.
Taxi Strikes
A few months ago, we experienced a taxi strike here in Chicago. The drivers, in a rare display of unity, walked for one day to protest recently passed legislation. The major "rub" was the increase of the fine from $500 to $750 for drivers who refuse service to individuals. What it boils down to is the drivers don’t want to take customers to the poorer south and west side districts. Their contention is these neighborhoods are dangerous. The real reason is that most people riding to those neighborhoods are poor and don’t TIP. You also run the risk of being ripped off on the fare, robbed of your entire day’s earnings and even killed. Just before the strike a cabby was shot by a 15 year old girl on the Southside after she refused to pay the fare.
I, for one, feel the cab is a luxury that I can’t or don’t care to afford. Cabs in Chicago are EXPENSIVE. The CTA will get me to where I want to go. If the group that I’m with is will to hop into a cab I’m more than willing to share.
One thing about the strike, there was less traffic, less noise, less tension for those walking and nary a horn was heard that day. I happened to see many "novice" ‘L’ riders that day also!
I'm looking for a guy I met a few weeks ago in a club called, "Legends". His name is West. All I know he's from Queens, New York.
West, I hope you come visit Mil Town again.
Was he a subway motorman or conductor?
Is there some reason you posted your message here? Seems like you are going to get a very limited audience here.
Try www.webpersonals.com and good luck.
In response to the man with the inquiry as to if the NHSL and the Rts. 101 and 102 run MU's at rush hour, the 101 does run MU's but for some reason the 102 does not. The Rt. 100(NHSL) also only runs single units. I went to check and there were more people at the platform for the 101 and 102 than the 100.
Until 1996, I lived in suburban Philadelphia. I've not been able to get back there to often since. The old Red Arrow was my favorite to ride. The P&W (Bullets, Straffords & Liberty Liners) and the MEDIA and SHARON HILL (Brills and Pullman-Standards) cars provided many an after school excursion in the late '60s. The electric MU's (800 series and 1963 Budd's) of the Reading Company provided many excursions also.
Thanks for taking the time to check!
Anytime, Jim.
2 car trains have been run on the NHSL (aka P&W) as recently as March. Two friends and I all rode a 2 car train to Norristown with both cars in service outbound. Inbound only the 1st car (the outbound "trailer") was in passenger service, the other car was just along for the ride to 69th Street. The N-5's bounced all over the jointed rail, but rode pretty smooth on the welded rail. However, the speeds are nothing like the Bullets and 60's of the past.
I wish somebody would invent a real way-back machine - but the temptation to "correct" history might be very, very strong.
Sigh....
They are still running as of Friday 5/15. I saw an outbound 2-car train at Gulph Mills station at roughly 7:30 AM.
They are definitely still running two car trains on Route 100. I rode it all last week due to my car being in the shop and rode a couple of two-unit trains. The only station at which both cars normally are opened (besides the terminals, of course) is Bryn Mawr. Usually, one car serves the big stops (Ardmore Jct., Radnor, Gulph Mills) and the other picks up the rest. If someone needs to get off from both cars, they have to let one car off, then pull up and let the other off. Strange.
I assume the 102 is too short of a route to require double cars (particularly since they have short trips during rush hour)
What if all the male riders used the subway as a public restroom? Could we stand waiting for our train? How, as human beings, can we justify this behavior? I’ve been tempted on occasion, however, I made it home - albeit a bit green!
On this note, a few weeks ago as my Ravenswood Brown Line train pulled into STATE/LAKE, a guy was just finished taking a whiz and zipping up on the opposite platform. Doing it in the subway is one thing, but hanging over the side of the ‘L’ station is just plain nasty. I was glad I was on the train and not walking to the station to catch it.
OFF THE SIDE OF THE EL???!!!! Good Gravy! Maybe it should be re-named the yellow line.
During the evening rush hour! Someone below had to have been splashed! And, the guy didn't even look drunk!
Ah, one of my pet peeves!! Granted, we 'gentlemen' may have an advantage when nature calls, but the ladies are catching us there too guys. In the past few months, I've come upon 3 'ladies' being, shall we say, unlady-like.
Three weeks ago, I saw a woman squatting behind a pile of garbage bags on te northbound platform at 161 St. on the 'D' line. However, after a retirement party, a few months ago, I was at the Union Turnpike Station. There was an R-32 layed up on the express track. From the platform, I saw movement in the darkened car at the rear of the station. Thinking it might be vandals, I boarded between cars, aimed my maglight and suprised two young ladies answering nature's call. Being the true gentleman that I am, I directed them to the tower at the other end of the platform where they each took a handful of paper towels and undid the deed.
As for the deed itself, needless to say, I find it disgusting. Especially when I think about having wo walk those urine-soaked catwalks, or worse, get under a train surrounded by the stench of piss permeating the trough.
I know that we can't always hold it when nature calls but have some pity on the poor transit worker that has to splash around in your pool.
I still vividly remember Cap'n Bludd's posting on nyc.transit a couple of years ago, concerning a skell who decided to relieve himself on a crowded F train. You see, it wasn't _numero uno_ ....
S#%T Happens !!!
I think it's even worse when so-called transit fans do this. I've been on two fan trips where participants used a) the Dean St station of the Franklin Shuttle (right off the platform, in full view of anyone in the vicinity) and b) the Rector St IRT station, against the wall at the far end of the platform, again in full view of anybody. When those who profess to support and respect the transit system in a little higher regard than the typical rider (and maybe I'm making a great leap of faith here!) do this, is it any wonder what we should expect from the everyday users of the system?
Hey,
When you gotta go, you gotta go, I've done it offa the EL and Hit a Passing car with a moonroof, Hole in one.
Consider yourself grade-A ignorant.
Hey do you all think we could end this thread? It's not really on topic....
-Dave
this is the 90s people, grow up!!!
[this is the 90s people, grow up!!!]
And your point is ...?
my point is peter, that people still lack common sense to know when they need to go. It is sad to witness such behavior by a certain few. I guess that you know it all right?
Luckily, I've never seen anyone take a dump in the subway. If I did, I'd probably end up ralphing right then and there.
I remember something which happened on one of my first trips on the IND in May of 1967. We were riding an AA of R-1/9s to 81st St. to the Museum of Natural History. My father was under the impression that the motorman's cab was a lavatory. I didn't think so. And, no, neither one of us heard nature calling (we had used the restroom at the Port Authority Bus Terminal).
That was commonplace in almost any station north of 125 ST. To see homeless people or just any Joe or Jane Schmucatelli drop their pants and cop a squat either on the platform or just aim over the tracks.
I have seen gentlemen take the call of nature between cars at speed (R40 Q 34thSt to West 4th), it must add to the thrill I guess?
Could we add electrocution to the thrill of taking a whiz between the cars of a speeding subway?
I know New York has covered vs. the exposed third rail we have in Chicago, but 650 volts can pack quite a wallop!
It was a balmy spring afternoon in 1983, and I was enjoying the ride through the Montague Street Tunnel on an eight-car train of R-16's on the M train (They might have been R 27-30's, but I'm prety sure I remember opening windows at the ends of the cars). As usual, I was walking through to the front of the train so I could press my nose up against the window and pretend I was driving. I'll never forget opening the end door on the second car and feeling a warm spray on my ankle. I looked up at the guy -- he was standing between cars, and pissing against the opposite storm door. He must have known the danger of urinating on live third raiil!
There's nothing like getting pissed on to spoil a perfectly nice train ride, let me tell you!
Wanna hear a story about something that pissed me off(:))?
There must be something in our water(and our beer) that causes us New Yorkers to pee in places most people wouldn't.
I was on the 'A' train at Dyckman Street one night. When I got off I saw two guys down at the end of the platform yelling and saying crazy things(they were obviously drunk) and they yelled about who could, and I quote "outpiss the other guy". So they had a pissing contest off the side of the platform. Wouldn't it have been something if a crew worker were on the tracks as it happened.
P.S.-I don't know who won and I really don't want to know.
[I was on the 'A' train at Dyckman Street one night. When I got off I saw two guys down at the end of the platform yelling and saying crazy things(they were obviously drunk) and they yelled about who could, and I quote "outpiss the other guy". So they had a pissing contest off the side of the platform. Wouldn't it have been something if a crew worker were on the tracks as it happened. ]
It would've been even funnier if they had hit the third rail!
> I have seen gentlemen take the call of nature between cars
> at speed (R40 Q 34thSt to West 4th), it must add to the
> thrill I guess?
You do use the word "gentlemen" loosely, don't you!
I was changing at Clark/Lake from the Loop L to the Blue subway, and I took the elevator. The elevator floor was nearly covered in urine. A cleaning man got on the elevator and I commented that "I'm pretty sure that's not water, is it?" His response was "That's a record!" He elaborated to say that he had cleaned it but ten minutes earlier. Clark/Lake is one of the busiest stations of the system, and this was at rush hour!
He also told me of a time when he had **just** cleaned the elevator and then it left because it was called. When it came back, there was urine on the floor and a man on the elevator. The cleaning man called over two cops nearby and arrested the man. Hurrah!
For "fun" elevators on the NY subway, try the street elevators at the 63rd and Lexington Ave. station. There must be a "lavatory" sign somewhere because the elevator just reeks!
Before the Jets left Shea Stadium after the 1983 season, I can remember that the Men's rooms in the upper deck always being overcrowded right at half time. There would always be a row of young men renting their fermented hops against the wall around the corner from the restroom. The effluent would then trickle (cascade?)down the wall to the levels below...Leon Hess finally got the hint and installed some Port-o-Sans.
The idea of using the subway for a lavoratory is a subset of a whole range of behaviors (litter, vandalism, harrassement) that affect the quality of life. Your reaction depends on your philosophy.
One point of view is that while you are free to do as you please in your own private spaces, as long as you do not affect those outside, while you are in shared "public" space you must restrain your behavior for the benefit of others, in accordace with social rules. That is my point of view. You are more free in private than in public.
A second point of view is that while you have a right to control your surroundings in your own private space, if you dare to set foot in the jungle of no-man's-land you have to be willing to tolerate others doing pretty much as they please. In this view, there is no such thing as shared space, only space which belongs to whoever can drive everyone else out of it rather than buying it. While you wouldn't foul your own nest, you are free to "act out" on the "frontier" of the city streets, parks, and transit lines. That may be called the ACLU point of view. You don't want to be confronted by urine, animal waste, panhandlers, garbage, loud radios and the rest? Stay inside. You want a vehicle without someone elses tag? Buy your own car, and write on it what you please.
The latter point of view works fine in the suburbs, where people increasing live in private gated communities with private homes and private parks where mindnumbingly detailed rules apply, drive private cars, shop in private shopping centers, work in private office complexes, and do not generally go anyplace open to the general public. That's fine for a city without sidewalks. How can a point of view which leads to total privatization be called liberal?
But to live in NYC, you have to give up your private car, house, yard, and anything else that takes up space in exchange for shared transit, public parks, streets and community institutions. If public space is the "Clockwork Orange" zone, then people will not want to live here. it's a life or death issue for cities and public transit.
What's worst is the way suburban teens, who live in places were almost every inch of space is private and controlled, go to the city to get their YaYas out.
That said, I've noticed that on summer weekends where there is a lot of garbage in the parks, all the trash cans are full. And the fact that people are using the subway for a lavatory may have something to do with the lack of facilities. They should reopen the rest rooms as paid, attended facilities.
Bravo Larry! You make several fine points in your response to the topic of public urination. I don’t know why this country doesn’t address the public rest facilities issue. As a person who has traveled extensively in Europe, I’ve witnessed how functional the attendant maintained restroom is. For a small "tip" you can avail yourself to a clean and safe place when nature calls.
I think the real problem about public urination is that some people have no regard for things that aren't theirs. By this I mean they "didn't pay (directly) for it.
When I was in Guantanamo (Naval Base) in the early 70's, the enlisted barracks always had ceiling tiles punched out, holes in the block walls, and other validalism of a minor nature. One of the Masters at Arms told me that "this happens 'cause' some people don't give a s**t for what ain't their's"
People who urinate in public places would NEVER dream of doing it on their front steps.
I was raised in "the old days", where parents taught their children what was proper to do in public and what was not. Apparently this "ain't being done any more"
Soapbox is put away.
I just found a great site on Philadelphia's streetcar history(with plenty of PCC's) at http://www.netreach.net/~szilagyi/streetca.htm.
Check it out(and yes, it is 'streetca' and not 'streetcar).
When I tried the URL as given, all I got was a 404 error stating "not found on this server.
Works for me, so maybe you spelled part of it wrong?
Anyway, there is a link to that site and lots of other PCC stuff on our own PCC page here.
-Dave
The link on the PCC page worked just fine. I copy/pasted the URL from the previous post, so maybe the poster spelled it wrong. Thanks for the correct link.
I copied the URL directly from the message and got right through!
Is it true that one can access the IRT City Hall station by staying on an out of service #6 train? They actually let you do that? And if so, can you actually enter the station or just look at it from the train?
You can't get off the train and onto the platform, you can only look out the windows of the train. So far that is still the policy, AFAIK, despite the tragedy that occurred there last week. Here's hoping it stays as it is.
For the best view of the City Hall station, wait for a 6 train that has a front window rather than a full-width cab. I must say, however, that the old station isn't quite as impressive (at least in my opinion) as one might think.
What tragedy?
I think he is talking about this:
Last Saturday, a 13 year old boy was killed when he was hit by a *Brooklyn-bound* #6 train(?????). Apparently, he and some friends were playing around in a restricted part of the tunnel and he was killed.
Newspaper accounts were kind of confused, as usual, but I think the incident actually happened on Friday (5/8). The dead teenager was apparently *running* from one car to another as the train went around the sharply curved City Hall loop. He fell between the cars and was run over. Not pretty. The train was not "Brooklyn bound", simply turning around, heading from the southbound platform at Brooklyn Bridge to the northbound platform, preparing for its trip back to the Bronx.
I've moved some old SubTalk posts to a new page (the link is at the top of the SubTalk page) to hopefully speed up the system during peak periods.
-Dave
Greetings,
I've started to revamp the Illustrated Subway Car Roster section. The pages were getting pretty photo-heavy and I realized they were pretty cumbersome and slow to browse through. So I re-did all the pages with about 6 pictures on each main page that I think are good illustrations of each car type, and then the rest of the pictures are broken up into sub-pages (no pun intended) with 15 pictures on each page. It's all generated by CGI scripts to make my life easier. So check them out!
In case you've missed any other recent changes, check out What's New?.
-Dave
I have some images of Brooklyn Eagle (and others) Post Cards
of Brooklyn Els and Trolleys.
I will be posting them to my homepage @
http://www.angelfire.com/fl/mainframeconsole
If anyone has mor information on the subject of
Brooklyn Eagle Postcards, let us know.
How does the "C" reverse direction to go back to 168th St. Is there
a loop at the Pitkin Avenue Yard, or does it go onto a siding in
between Euclid/Grant?
In the past, the A train used the outer 2 tracks at Euclid Ave. The C would use the inner two. There is a X-over just north of the station. Alternately, the C's can relay on the Pitkin Yard leads which are south of the station. I've seen both used in the past.
usually, they relay on the yard lead, just as they do at 168st. Other trains that pass stations to relay:
the G goes through Smith-9 to the express tracks at 4th Ave to reverse. At 71/continental and Queens Plaza, there are a set of relay tracks blow the regular service tracks.
The F at 179 (and 169, too?) there is a double set of relays, upper and lower, although the station is on a single level. All passengers exit on one platform, and board the other.
the D relays on the yard lead at 205st in the Bronx
4 trains relay through the portal at Utica Ave.
There are also relay tracks at Church Ave (F) and when the Q was Express on B'way, at 57st/7ave (now the lead to 63st Tunnel.
Also if you go to the north end of 205th st D train you will also see a relay there also. This is where the uptown D train usually crosses over to go back downtown. I have seen it when i visit a friend of mine who is a motormen on the D train. A motorman/woman will get on the last car of the uptown D train when it stops at 205th st so the train came come back in on the downtown side of 205th st
Charlie Muller.
The 'D' train most definitely does not relay on the yard lead. They relay on C1 and C2 track north of 205th St. The yard lead (C7 track) is south of 205th St station.
At 177st/Parkchester on the #6 line, the Bronx local relays to M track North of the station and then reverse direction Southbound to track #1 and into the station, ready for Manhattan bound sevice.
In response to Mr. Eisenstein's post, with all due respect, I must add something. The "D" train doesn't relay off of the yard lead, but on the lay-up tracks which extend just beyond 205th. The yard lead is between Bedford Park and 205th. I know because that's where I grew up.
I, in my various journeys for knowledge, have come across some things that gave me the impression that Philadelphia was once to have a subway network the proportions of Chicago, or, dare I say it, New York?
One such item I came across were plans(actually heard through word of mouth from an old friend) for a subway along Rooosevelt Boulevard in Northeast Philadelphia(an area that, if you visited would know, understandably may not want a subway).
I also once saw in books at the transit museum here in Philadelphia that the city was once to have several els, such as a line to Germantown.
Why did none of these plans come to fruition?
The only one I know about was a planned NE extension of the Broad St. Subway from the Erie Avenue station under Roosevelt Blvd, using (among others) an already built but never-to-be-used station in the Sears building on Adams Avenue and the Blvd., then north along the ROW of the electric power lines along Pennway St. (just west of Castor Avenue) to a terminal at Rhawn Street (slightly north of NE High School). Around 1970 they took a good hard look at the plans one last time and, for lack of money I think, just gave up on it.
The other thing that I remember being planned was to link up the Broad Street Subway with the Reading Line to Chestnut Hill -- now called the Chestnut Hill East line -- since it was already duplicating the nearby and heavier used Pennsylvania RR Chestnut Hill Line (now CH West) and the Market E. tunnels were not yet started. It would have connected at either Erie or North Phila -- I can't remember which. But for reasons which I can't even attempt to state, that one never even got past the "Here's a good idea..." phase.
Then there was the plan to extend the Locust St. subway (PATCO) to the University of Pennsylvania and the Civic Center, which never got off the ground...
It's amazing that they ever got the Airport Regional Rail line to be built. Though I personally think running it once every half hour discourages people from using it. I think once every 15-20 minutes would be much better.
After the Market St el was built, the City developed a grand scheme for rapid transit expansion, mostly elevateds at first, but subways later. Els were supposed to go out Woodland Ave, Lancaster Ave, North 33rd St to Ridge Ave, and Frankford. Of course, only Frankford was built.
Later, subway plans came about, some described in the previous posting, with others planned to travel out the Parkway and 29th St to Roxborough (the Henry Ave bridge over Lincoln Dr has provisions in it for this line, and the Broad St Subway curves to the west at City Hall to make this eventual connection), west on Passyunk Ave to Southwest Phila (the reason the Broad St Subway is wide and curves to the west north of Snyder), the East Mount Airy line, which I believe would have left the Broad St Subway at Olney (the Northeast line branched off at Erie), and several others. None got off the plans due to money (whether the City or private companies would build), the economy, World War I, and, believe it or not, the strength of Phila's streetcar system, which was an efficient mover of people in the early '20's. A far cry from today!
The way I understand it, the Northeast Extension of the Broad Street Subway was studied in several guises. The one mentioned here is what was known to planners as the "Pennway alignment" since the right-of-way following the utility lines would have been (as far as I know) in the median of a new expressway which would eventually have reached U.S. Route 1 at the Pennsylvania Turnpike near Neshaminy Mall (i.e., the "Pennway"). Two other alignments of which I know of were:
(1) the "New York Short Line" alignment which would have followed the ROW of the Reading Railroad's low-grade freight line which skirts the western periphery of NE Philly - an option not favored because of its peripheral nature and its proximity to the Fox Chase Regional Rail line, and;
(2) the "Roosevelt Boulevard" alignment which would have branched off from the Broad Street Subway at Hunting Park (the bellmouths and track connections are still there, I think) and proceed up the Blvd. as far as either Rhawn Street or Red Lion, I don't remember which.
I have been told (and this may be a form of "urban legend") that the preferred alignment was under the Boulevard and that the Feds were ready to kick in capital funding to start work, but that a couple of things happened:
(1) The people in NE Philly - especially the "far Northeast" - were concerned that the subway extension would bring "undesirables" to their part of the city and lobbied hard against the extension (have you ever seen a thief with a TV set at a train station? - I haven't), and;
(2) SEPTA wanted to divert the money for the building of the large Center City Commuter Tunnel project, which was a worthy project but I still think the BSS extension would have provided more "bang for the buck".
In the end, it is interesting to note that SEPTA is today looking at a "Northeast Metro" which is essentially a light rail line running from Center City, up the American Street industrial corridor, and out the (I think) New York Short Line in order to serve NE Philly. The subway would obviously be much faster and of a higher capacity - keep in mind that the BSS has a heck of alot of unused capacity!
In the opinion of many civic boosters, this line would make alot more sense (and carry alot more people) than the much-ballyhooed Schuylkill Valley or Cross County Metros (although I feel these projects also have merits). But the political reality is that a suburban line is "sexier" and easier to sell to the SEPTA Board. Comments?
A: The line was supposed to terminate @ Rhawn St.
B: Is this true? One of my friends said that once construction was being done on Roosevelt and the workers happened upon the "ghost subway" underneath. Is that true?
C: I think it would be a good idea to have it connected to the BSS myself because back when I lived in NE Philly I used to love the 20 minute ride from Bridge and Pratt, but when one is in a hurry(never, in my case) a fsater approach would be better. Why not finish it and funnel the line(two tracks?) onto the BSS express tracks for a faster commute to CC.
D: I wonder if suburbanites felt threatened when the Market East station came to be and was connected to the Gallery(don't label me a racist, but a place where one would find "undesireables") and had easy access to that. I live in Mt. Airy, a neighborhood pretty fairly racially populated. When I lived in the NE(Lexington Park) it wasn't as diverse, but if they constructed a subway up there when I lived there, my concern would only gone as far as "Ooh! A new subway". If this Roosevelt Blvd. subway was completed, I don't think people living on the other end of the Blvd. would mind.
Jack,
Point A: Thank you! I always get Red Lion or Rhawn mixed up.
Point B: The only "ghost subway" I can think of is either the unfinished tunnel heading at Hunting Park Station on the BSS or the subway station Sears built in its basement in anticipation of the extension. Other than that, I think the only things under the Boulevard are utilities.
Keep in mind that, as far as I know, "ramps" and track connections are also in place just north of Olney Terminal for the BSS to have been extended up towards Cheltenham (the route of the old Route 6 trolley). An old track map I have shows these connections at the point where the line turns east to exit the tunnel and enter the Fern Rock complex. There certainly were big plans for this line at one time!
Point C: Obviously, in terms of capacity, the BSS can handle many more trains than are run on it today, perhaps with some upgrades to the signaling system. Of course, the one item I neglected to mention in my previous post is that the north-south route of the BSS has much poorer Center City circulation than the east-west route of the Market Street Subway - this is why the "El" is still a popular route through Center City.
In fact, I believe plans are afoot for a new station on the Market Street Subway between 15th Street and 30th Street (at about 20th Street). My question is whether or not this station would connect (and offer free transfers to) the Subway-Surface lines at 19th Street Station.
Point D: The thing to remember here is that the Market East Station project was located in the Center City business district - "not in my backyard". This surely helped alleviate any suburbanite's potential fears about this project. The benefits of living on the "Reading side" and being able to commute to Suburban Station (or living on the "Pennsylvania side" and being able to commute to Market East) clearly were overwhelming for the suburban constituency, and rightfully so.
Another item I neglected to mention in my previous post, however, was that a heck of alot of money was going to have to be spent in any event - the old reading viaduct into the Terminal was crumbling. In this respect, the whole Center City Commuter Tunnel project is not as expensive as it first appears to be. But it still cost a pretty penny!
As for the clientele at The Gallery (for all you New Yorkers - this is the large urban shopping mall attached to Market East - Ed Bacon lives!) I think things have improved dramatically recently. I don't know how often you go down there, but there are many fewer homeless and aimless "hangers out" in the mall. The new Convention Center, Marriott Hotel and Hard Rock Cafe are rapidly turning this part of town into a decidedly "tourist quarter". And the Reading Terminal Market is still there, only now its frequented by tourists as well as all the lawyer-types from the new Criminal Justice Center. When the new Independence Mall and National Constitution Center is done, I think everything east of City Hall will be ten times better than it was in about 1990.
Finally, I don't know when you lived in the Northeast, but the "Ooh, a new subway!" reaction is not the reaction that I am told was impressed upon planners back in the early-to-mid 1970's. (Keep in mind that I can only tell you what I was told - I wasn't there.) I am sure that you are right when you say that today a new subway or the "Northeast Metro" would be welcomed - but 1998 is a far cry from 1972 and the Northeast is now plagued with traffic congestion like never before, as well as a changing demographic base. Comments, anyone?
For years I’ve thought that the BSS should have been extended north under Broad Street turning northwest under Cheltenham Avenue to a terminal located at Ogontz & Cheltenham. This is basically the end of the Route 309 expressway that dumps many motorists onto the already jammed Philadelphia city streets.
Running EXPRESS trains SEPTA could probably provide the rider a 25 minute MAX ride from City Hall. This service could be marketed as for $5 you can park ‘n ride to downtown Philadelphia (2 x 1.60 plus $1.80 park fee/tax). There was room for parking at the shopping center as I remember.
A reason for NOT doing this would be diverting riders from the regional rail lines (i.e. R2 - Warminster, R5 - Doylestown, and R7 & R8, the Chestnut Hills (I know most of the riders boarding at both Chestnut Hill stations are suburbanites). SEPTA already has invested here already. For example, Chicago experienced a decrease in ridership at close to the city stations on the Heritage Corridor when the Orange Line opened. The LOOP is just a better distributor than Union Station. However, the Heritage Corridor is not a heavy hitter here in Chicago and little investment in this line has been made by METRA.
On a historical note, most people don’t know that the Henry Avenue bridge over the Lincoln Drive was constructed to accommodate installation of rapid transit trains at a future time. I’m sure the PRR and Reading Company had much to do with stifling the ambitious rapid transit development in Philadelphia.
Jim,
You are more likely than not correct about the PRR and the Reading, but from what I have read one of the most antagonistic people in town towards rapid transit expansion was Widener and his "traction interests". From what I understand, the PRT was reluctant to run subways which it felt competed with its streetcars. Maybe the City Council should have made a clear deal (a la New York) that the PRT would have run a city-built subway under a very-long-term contract.
Keep in mind that the PRT had itself built the Market Street subway and elevated and was heavily in debt for this facility, which even it had to admit was needed in this most heavily traversed corridor. But it was the City of Philadelphia that built both the Frankford Elevated and the entire Broad Street Subway "system" (which includes the Broad-Ridge Spur and Locust Street Subway). I believe the Delaware River Bridge Joint Commission (precursor to DRPA and PATCO) built the "Bridge Line" to Camden, thus sowing the seeds for the Lindenwold Line in the future.
I think that any El station between 15th and 30th isn't a great idea and I'll tell you why. Have you ever been on the El between those stops? Once that train gets away from 30th St., it picks up some serious speed and is a direct connection to the heart of Center City instead of the trolley, which makes two intermediate stops.
If you have a need of going somewhere in between the El stops, you have the free connection to the trolley at both 15th and 30th, they make two stops, which will put you closer to your stop than one and uring rush hour, at some points you have headways of LESS THAN A MINUTE!!!!!!
Also, did you know that the new entertainment complex going up on Penn's Landing(finished along side the 2nd Ave. subway) will have a Planet Hollywood to accompany our new Hard Rock. Hopfully, as was mentioned in a post last month, there will be trolley service to the area and can link directly to the El(maybe something that can use those unused tracks for the 23(a sight that breaks my heart every time I see it) and connect to the B-R spur, and then the BSS.
Let me ask you a question. If SEPTA said they would build a new subway to any neighborhood in the city if a good enough case were made, which neighborhood would it be. Would anyone else disagree with NW Philly(i.e.-Rox/Man, Mt. Airy, Germantown).
Jack,
Good question. When you look at the overall layout of the Philadelphia rapid transit system, it seems that most areas north of Center City (other than the obvious Broad Street and Frankford Elevated "corridors") go begging. But I think (and I could be wrong) that we must also consider the Regional Rail system today, especially since the TrailPass sold by SEPTA allows Regional Rail riders unlimited access to City Transit Division services. Because of these advantages, I think the NW is well served by SEPTA compared to the NE, when taken as a whole. Why?
First, the Chestnut Hill lines (BOTH the R7 East and R8 West) provide decent coverage and relatively frequent service (though nowhere near as frequent as a subway would be) into the NW portion of the city. In fact, they lay wholly within the city! A good chunk of the R6 Norristown line also serves this corridor, and if the Schuylkill Valley Metro is built then Manayunk and Roxborough will be better connected to Center City (in terms of frequency) than they ever have been.
Second, the lines that serve the NE area - R8 Fox Chase and R7 Trenton - not only skirt the area peripherally but, in the case of the R8 Fox Chase, don't have comparable service frequencies. In fact, the R7 Trenton hardly serves the area at all now that the first stop after North Philly is at Bridesburg. (Frankford Junction closed a few years back.)
Anyway, that's my case. Like I said, I could be wrong, but if I were "God-for-a-day" I'd still build the Boulevard subway (and New York's Second Avenue subway - probably the most desperately needed piece of rapid transit railroad in America, if not the world) before a NW subway. But I'll grant you this: a NW subway in Philly would be infinitely more useful than any truncated version of the Los Angeles Red Line Metro!
I agree with you. But know this, if I were "God for a day", I'd build the 2nd Avenue subway before I cured AIDS and made world peace because, as you said, it is desparately needed. Than we'd have our Roosevelt Blvd. subway, our NW subway(G-town Av. or Ridge?) and I like a Passyunk Ave. subway.
Two questions:
A-What do you mean "truncated version of the L.A. Red Line"
B-I'm sorry to say, I don't know what the Schuykill Valley metro is.
A-What do you mean "truncated version of the L.A. Red Line" ?
Ans - the LA Red Line, as operated today, is a short (max 4 miles) downtown distributor that connects LA Union Station to MacArthur Park, an older neighborhood a little west of downtown LA. It carries little patronage compared to its New York or Chicago brethren because its additional connections (to Wilshire Blvd and North Hollywood) are still U/C as of this date.
B -I'm sorry to say, I don't know what the Schuykill Valley metro is.
This is a proposal to turn the R6 Norristown Regional Rail Route into a light rail line. R6 is a lightly partronized line with 2 car trains used in off peaks. It runs along the Schuylkill River valley from Manayunk to Norristown, and is the old Reading RR main line to Reading, PA. It is parallel to the PRR's long abandoned Norristown branch, immediately to the north. The PRR r..o.w is still clearly evident since its old catenary towers and pole lines are still there. Now the r.o.w is used for utility purposes, including a SEPTA power transmission line.
A-What do you mean "truncated version of the L.A. Red Line" ?
Ans - the LA Red Line, as operated today, is a short (max 4 miles) downtown distributor that connects LA Union Station to MacArthur Park, an older neighborhood a little west of downtown LA. It carries little patronage compared to its New York or Chicago brethren because its additional connections (to Wilshire Blvd and North Hollywood) are still U/C as of this date.
B -I'm sorry to say, I don't know what the Schuykill Valley metro is.
This is a proposal to turn the R6 Norristown Regional Rail Route into a light rail line. R6 is a lightly partronized line with 2 car trains used in off peaks. It runs along the Schuylkill River valley from Manayunk to Norristown, and is the old Reading RR main line to Reading, PA. It is parallel to the PRR's long abandoned Norristown branch, immediately to the north. The PRR r..o.w is still clearly evident since its old catenary towers and pole lines are still there. Now the r.o.w is used for utility purposes, including a SEPTA power transmission line.
HELLO IM FROM AUSTRIA AND I HAVE ONE QUESTION.HOW LONG DO YOU LIKE TIME FOR A WILDSTYLE PIECE ON A SUBWAY.peace
Was ist ihr Fragen? Ich verstehe nicht. Was ist ein "wildstyle piece" und warum es gibt ein "long time" fur diese? Fried...
Pardon my poorly written German... Seriously, if you want to write something, just write, don't worry about it; just don't discuss criminal endeavours or be vulgar (and I didn't think you were going to...). By the way, the Metro in Vienna is great, especially the newly converted U6 from the "StadtBahn" line it used to be.
Bitte, Sprechen Sie Geschichte!
Ich gross Fanatiker Wiener Linien.
Die Strassenbahn ist Wunderbar, die U-6 Bahn auch!
This is pushing my Deutche to the limit.
Please correspond with us again.
Um, I don't speak German or Dutch. I'm afriad I don't know what you're talking about.
HELLO IM FROM AUSTRIA AND I HAVE ONE QUESTION.HOW LONG DO YOU LIKE TIME FOR A WILDSTYLE PIECE ON A SUBWAY.peace
Was ist ihr Fragen? Ich verstehe nicht. Was ist ein "wildstyle piece" und warum es gibt ein "long time" fur diese? Fried...
Pardon my poorly written German... Seriously, if you want to write something, just write, don't worry about it; just don't discuss criminal endeavours or be vulgar (and I didn't think you were going to...). By the way, the Metro in Vienna is great, especially the newly converted U6 from the "StadtBahn" line it used to be.
Bitte, Sprechen Sie Geschichte!
Ich gross Fanatiker Wiener Linien.
Die Strassenbahn ist Wunderbar, die U-6 Bahn auch!
This is pushing my Deutche to the limit.
Please correspond with us again.
Um, I don't speak German or Dutch. I'm afriad I don't know what you're talking about.
As a resident of the Roxborough side of the Northwest, please put me down for two votes (the missus and me) for rapid transit for this part of town. I'm tired of express (so-called!) bus service. Let's rectify the error in the only portion of this city not connected to rapid transit, even by bus connection. I'm not counting the long and indirect one via the 65 (ex-E) to 69th St, which for most residents of Roxborough, requires a transfer even to get to the 65!
True. The main transit paradigm in Philadelphia (similar to Toronto and Boston, but not in Baltimore or Cleveland as counterexamples) is: Everybody can take a nearby bus for a short trip to a subway station to get into the city (like, for example, the 52 St. bus to 52 St. station, or the Allegheny bus to Allegheny Station). (The Subway-Surface lines go straight into Center City, a nice exception.)
But in the northwestern part of the city there is not that same directness to a subway station. Even the Great Northeast has lots of busses that go directly to the northeasternmost El stations. The Northwest could really use a subway taking the place of the Reading line to Chestnut Hill to provide what is standard procedure throughout most of the rest of Philadelphia.
Regarding rapid transit on the Boulevard
Going back to the 1970’s , I used to use the "B" bus from the Great Northeast to the Bridge-Pratt EL, and ultimately downtown. There was frequent service on the "B" line then. Because I had spent some time in Europe, I always felt that there was enough riders to justify a light rail application using the Roosevelt Boulevard. If memory serves me correctly, there was a center medium that would allow for tracks.
A light rail line, feeding either the EL at Bridge-Pratt or the Subway at Hunting Park, in my opinion would have been viable. I don’t think riders would mind a transfer if that transfer was easy and convenient. Look what the TTC does at its subway stations and the Harvard subway station on the Red Line in Boston for examples.
While on the subject, I perfer surface or elevated right-of-way vs. "in the hole" when I communte. I like to see where I'm going. I realize that in some places this just isn't possible.
Does anyone else familiar with the Northeast Philadelphia transportation scene concur?
I agree. There is more than enough space for a light rail line either down the middle or one track each in the islands between the inner and outer lanes. For those not from the City of Brotherly Love, Roosevelt Blvd. is a 15 mile long street with 4 3-lane sections, 2 of them north and 2 south, sort of like Queens Boulevard. In any of those islands they could build light rail tracks and people near the cross town bus lines could get to it easily. If a connection at Erie Avenue was made or one to the Frankford El, it would be popular. Of course, the construction so as to flow with the traffic in a private ROW might be a bit difficult, but that is currently done in places like Beacon St. in Boston and many cities in Europe. So here is a second vote for the Roosevelt Blvd. Light Rail Line.
Transit for people living in the not-so-far Northeast(i.e.-Mayfair, Frankford, Bridesburg) really don't have a problem getting to rapid transit. But in areas a bit out of the way(say, by Franklin Mills) you might need a faster way. I like a subway but a light rail line will do just nicely.
I used to live in Lexington Park(around the Smiley Times building) and it isn't so far from rapid transit(most NE's prefer the El) but a bit of a ways.
For some reason, many transit "experts" note that the ideal is always a one-seat ride, since it offers fewer inconveniences, once you're on and you've got a seat you're on, less unpredictability of service, less anxiety that you'll miss a connection, etc etc. There is merit to this.
Of course, the flip side is that a long line is harder to operate and delays can occur in one place that will tie up the entire line.
At present, I have a one-seat ride (bus) from a block from my home to Center City Phila. The bus uses the Schuylkill Expressway and is often delayed by traffic. The bus passes the R6 Wissahickon station one stop before the bus route becomes express to Center City. For many reasons, if I transfer from the bus to the R6 (a much faster ride but involving a transfer), the cost of my commute increases nearly three times as much than if I remained on the bus. Yes, you could argue that I could purchase a TrailPass for Zone 2 and do this easily, but there is little economic incentive for this. Why not allow me to transfer just as if I were transferring to another SEPTA surface line or a rapid transit line? Why operate two modes, competing with each other?
This is why I think rapid transit to the northwest part of Phila is desparately needed.
Ahh, No. You are merely the victim of obsolete thinking. When I lived briefly in Philly, I could buy a ticket on the Reading with a very cheap addon coupon for PTC transfer to complete my trip. The point is of course that ALL Septa service within the city limits should be a single universal fare with transfers. . Your taxes pay for Septa as an entity....Sadly this is a problem in many cities BUT the San Francisco Muni Monthly Fastpass is good for unlimited use within city limits on both the BART and the CalTrain commuter line.
You are correct - the problem is that the Bus-Train ticket is no longer! Instead of any attempt to "coordinate" the separate services of the same agency, SEPTA continues its class-distinctive services and competes with itself AND still loses! I'd like to see a better use of my tax dollars, but...
I have some images of 50+year old post cards that appear to be distributed or sold via theBrooklyn Eagle.
I believe that the newspaper itself folded back in the 60's.
There are some other brands of post cards in the images also.
Most of the cards show the early elevated and street railways of
Brooklyn. One image is a view of Fulton St from 1858 with a horse drawn tram.
The Brooklyn Board could not post them because they only post
personal photographic images.
How long did it take to reconfigure the Manhattan Bridge from the pre-Chrystie St. layout (north side tracks to Broadway, south side tracks to Nassau St.) to the post-Chrystie St. layout (north side tracks to 6th Ave., south side tracks to B'way). Was the bridge closed to all trains for several weeks? Or...
I know it was Thanksgiving weekend when the change was made in 1967. Were they able to maintain service in the old pattern through the PM rush of the day before Thanksgiving? That would have given them just over three days to do the work--a total of about 76 hours, with the new service pattern beginning at (roughly) 12:01 AM Sunday. Is this possible?
If memory serves I rode one of the last N's eastbound Friday evening maybe8 or 9 P and definitely the first "new " N westbound 4:30 or so Mon morning. Presumably they had everything ready and merely had to cut and splice.
Not only that, all bridge trains ran through the tunnel that Saturday evening so they could reconnect the tracks. Then at midnight the first D-Brighton and F-Culver trains began at their two terminals and the Broadway trains ran through the tunnel till that Sunday morning, I believe.
The full tunnels themselves -- except for the two places where the last 10 feet of connecting track were put in -- were built over the preceding 4-5 years.
According to the ERA Bulletin 12-67, the Nassau loop were taken out of service that Wednesday and "prepared" for connection to Canal St, and then the bridge was completely closed at 7pm Friday. The connection was finished the next afternoon, and went into service at midnight. The N stayed in the tunnel until Monday morning
Why wasn't the Nassau Loop connection left as an option? It just seems silly to have removed existing track instead of putting in a switch to Broadway. Future economic development or population shift could require that kind of service. In fact a new service down Broadway, down the loop, through the tunnel might be a good option too.
Oh, well, it's all over. I'll miss Seinfeld. I'll really miss George, but I'll miss the show. Anyway, a few quickies.
The Rt. 101 does use MU's and single units at rush hour.
And the M-4's are facing vandalism already. The glass panes by the doors are already getting scratched up and one of the cloth seats has coffee spilled on it(don't blame me!).
So, I suggest we all get on with our lives and find something else to do Thursday nights.
I wonder what CBS is up to these days.
Riding the M4 the other day I saw something for the first time... two men were beginning to scratch the glass by the door after boarding at 30th...
They did not do much, but shortly they were arrested by a plain-clothes cop. At 15th they were escorted off the train.
Its about time someone did that. (Arrest them, that is)
What is CBS up to? Well, they already have a "lame comedy show run by a gap-toothed fool".
(Hey, don't look at me--Letterman disses himself on his own show!)
How long has it been since the ‘N’ train has been re-routed into the subway vs. using the bridge route? I was going through my collection of NYCTA subway maps, and 1990 was the last time I saw the ‘N’ on the bridge. Is there more to it than just re-decking?
Secondly, when, if ever, will the ‘N’ train go back to using the bridge?
The plan (if all goes well) is to reopen the south side of the tracks in 2001 and close the north side tracks. Which trains will then go over the bridge is anyone's guess, but they will be traveling on Broadway express. There will be no access from DeKalb to the 6th Avenue express. Again, if all goes well, the north side will be reopened in 2003. That is the way it was explained to me by various officials and engineers.
How long will it last after that? It depends on if there are any more surprises (we've had 12 years of surprises). But allowing for continual reconstruction, one figure I heard was a minimum of 30 years. Not being an engineer, however, I wonder about the 30 years. Like many people, given the bad history and contradictory statements, I wonder if we should be planning a replacement.
Isn't it ironic, that they will in 3 years, return to the pre-1967 system for a couple of years. Maybe they will have the QB on weekends, the Q and QT on weekdays, and the T train returing to the West End Line.
The Bronx D trains will probably dead end at 2nd Avenue, if they are smart, rather than at 34 St. if they do what is predictable. Actually if they were really smart, they could dead-end the D train at Grand St. during the construction.
I am writing this as I am watching the news of Frank Sinatara's passing. To borrow a line from a song from another singer:
"Until the twelfth of never, and that's a long ,long time!"
(In other words- I dont see the bridge reopening anytime soon--2001,2003 or whenever.
Would that require a double crossover north of the station? I think its a great idea but is it economically feasible? Why it wasn't built like that back in the sixties is anyone's guess. Perhaps they feared that someone who make an error and run a train on the wrong track on the bridge. I am not sure but I believe the bridge tracks were constructed so that trains could only travel in one direction.
Well, not exactly pre-1967. They would be reverting back to the service pattern of the late 80s, with split B and D services. The Q would be a through route, since it could continue onto 63rd St. from 57th St.-7th Ave. 34th St would still be a logical transfer point, but I agree with running D trains from the Bronx to Grand St.
Keep in mind that, prior to 1967, the south side tracks of the Manhattan Bridge fed the Nassau Loop. It wasn't until the Chrystie St. connection opened that those tracks were rerouted to the Broadway line.
As for bringing back the QB or QT, it ain't gonna happen - double letter designations were dropped in 1985. I could see the T making a comeback, if they wanted to run a Broadway-West End service.
Speaking of closing off the north side tracks, wasn't that portion of the bridge rebuilt already? Or will it have to be re-rebuilt? I get the feeling that they'll be constantly rebuilding that thing.
BTW, there was confusion galore when the Chrystie St. connection intially opened. Motormen were pushing wrong buttons at station consoles, and trains wound up going over the bridge instead of through the Montague St. tunnel, and vice versa. I remember reading a newspaper article about such incidents at that time, but unfortunately, I didn't clip it out and save it.
The Bklyn portion of the B, rerouted up the Bway line would be the same as the T, and I've been suggesting that rename it that. (There are codes for it on the R44/46 electronic signs, though. But they would have to get new rollsigns, or paste "T" over the yellow "B".) The "W" could be used to replace the Brighton local.
I would like to know how the current construction of the tunnel from 96th to 148th streets are progressing. Any info on this would be appreciative,also have 2 and 3 service been slowed by this? thanks
Can't tell you the progress of the construction, but if you know of the construction, you should know all about the delays. the 2 runs downtown only between 149st and 96st from 5-12, and from 12-9 uptown only. 3 is on the 1/9 to 137-city college, and there is limited rush hour service to 148st. Nights and weekends, service is every 20 minutes in both directions on the 2 along lenox, with the 3 to 137st/b'way all times.
-Hank
In this mornings news, cops might start handing out summons for anyone caught holding subway car doors. The fine will be $100 for the act. The MTA says this should ease delays on various lines sucha as the Lexington. Others have said that this is another ploy by the city to gain more money. Whatever the reason, look out straphangers. You could be doing a favor for another person but at the same time you risk getting a fine for your act of courtesy.
-Garfield
As a licensed(:)) doorholder, I see the logic behind both sides. If I were running to catch the train and someone held the door, I'd be gracious. But what about the other people on the train. These days, it doesn't pay to help anybody. You end up getting a big, black boot up your butt.
Wait a minute. Are most door holders doing it for others, or sticking their hand in for themselves as the doors close? My experience is the latter. I've seen numerous stare downs between the conductor, not wanting to give in to such behaviour, and a door holder, holding the rest of the train hostage to his unwillingness to wait. Moreover, I've seen the conductor give in only to have the doors obstructed by an even later-comer. Its one thing if your kid just got on and you're trying to follow. Its another if you are just putting yourself ahead of 1,200 other people.
Moreover, back in the 1980s people holding the doors would burn out the door motors and knock trains out of service. I haven't seen that in a long time, and have no desire to see it again.
I'd put the more common form of door holding -- for yourself -- in the same category as using the subway for a lavatory, vandalizing transit equipment, graffitti, phony lawsuits, theft of equipment, deferred maintenance, and a host of other sins. Not to be judgemental.
To Practicing Door Holders
Everyone who practices the art of door holder has their reasons for doing it. Many of us justify our actions one way or another. Do we ever stop to think about the damage it does to the door motors? How much longer would the door motors last if door holders didn’t practice their art? I’m not condoning or criticizing the art of door holding. I’m just offering just another way to look at it.
As one of greyer hair, I remember uniformed TA personnel holding doors at 59th st on the uptown local platform at rush hour. (1 line) So what gives? They didn't burn out motors did they?
In those days, the doors were driven by air engines instead of electric motors.
And, of course, on the oldest of the Hi-Vs, the end doors were manually operated.
Door holding isn't so bad on the El. The doors are air-driven on that too.
Air vs. Electric Doors
The El cars of the Market - Frankford Line should not be used to judge the equipment of other systems. When these cars were built in 1960, air operated doors were more common. Today, most of the equipment in NYC is equipped with electrical motor driven doors. Not to mention in Chicago, where there hasn’t been a air operated door since the 4000’s were retired in 1973. Don’t make assumptions from shows such as "ER" which always accompany their CTA train shots with "air release sounds".
Door holder’s would probably be the first people to complain about service disruptions. These disruptions were probably caused by the holding of electrical driven door’s.
Fan’s should be responsible riders.
I agree. Maybe holding doors isn't always the best idea. During rush hours I am particularly leery of doing it but if someone just came down the steps and is feet from the door, help a person out.
So you should help one person, while inconviencing the other 1500 people on the train, not to mention all the customers on the trains behind, who have to wait until everyone has gotten on at that station. The other day, I had a group holding doors at 50th St on the 1, while the rest of the group were still entering the station. The train was discharged and went back into service at 42nd St. Who was helped by that?
The tone of everyone's messages seems to be this: don't play around with the doors. I couldn't agree more. In Toronto, if I'm not mistaken, all our train doors are motor driven since the retirement of the G-trains (1954-1990). A day rarely goes by when I don't see a train with one door out of service. This means for those crowded around that door the only way out is through one of the other three doors. In rush hours that's a big problem. Often trains are dumped of their load because of door problems, causing even more delays. Why people would prefer to squeeze into a packed train when another one is right behind is beyond me. And knapsacks, purses and shopping bags all seem to be an after thought for people carrying them as they rush to beat the closing doors.
CROWDING AROUND THE DOORS
It constantly amazes to watch the behavior or the riders on the CTA Brown Line. These riders, probably the best educated and successful of any group of riders in Chicago, constantly stand in the door way and block the doors. I’ve watched when people have just "milled around" on the platform, acting like they don’t know how to board the train. When the train is full of "door blockers" there is only one way to get on. Say "excuse me" and push through those blocking the entrance. These door blockers add precious minutes to the running time of the Brown Line. I would say close to ten minutes of running time can be attributed to these rude and selfish individuals. These are the same individuals that will complain about the "slow service". However, door blockers exercise their right to block on every system I’ve ridden. It is just a fact of life we must deal with.
Secondly, one unwritten rule most riders can’t understand. When a train is running late, it will be crowded, because it is picking up riders . If you let the first train go by, 9 times out of 10, the follower is close behind and usually less crowded.
Note to Ian - If I remember correctly, the headway’s are so short on the Toronto system that usually the follower is waiting outside the station for the leader to vacate the station. I observed this in the rush hour at the stations close to downtown. I think it was at Shelbourne station WESTBOUND in the AM rush. Isn’t the headway on the Bloor-Danforth something like every 2 minutes? Or is it less?
I don't know the exact headways but in rush hours they are 2 minutes or less. From my stop, if a train comes in that's crowded I can tell whether there's another one right behind or not - they're usually that close. If you were at Sherbourne (not Shelbourne) heading west, it was likely that the train either sat in that station for a few moments or stopped somewhere in the tunnel before Yonge Street as Bloor-Yonge is the busiest station in the system and trains take longer to discharge.
Door blockers often bear my full weight on their feet if it's crowded and they insist on standing in the way. So far, no black eyes!
I guess it's the same the world over - ignorant people caught in their own little universe.
I've never noticed door blocking or door stopping being a serious or even a minor problem in London.
That's because on the older tube and surface stock (like the 1972 stock on the Piccadilly line), the doors slide closed with a fast, hard 'woosh' that someone would have to be nuts to block. They are pretty unforgiving-looking...
I seem to recall the same thing on the Piccadilly line, too. Those doors closed quickly. On the District line, however, the doors weren't as quick. They seemed to close at about the same speed as New York's rolling stock. Of course, I am referring to the 1920s vintage rolling stock which was running on that line when I visited London in 1978. (has it really been 20 years?) The Circle line used newer cars. One thing I enjoyed was the familiar groaning and whining of the motors at speed - it was as if I was on a train of R-1/9s.
If you think the older trains had fast doors, the new trains for London's Central Line swipe shut with the speed of a guillotine, but this line does suffer from some of the worst overcrowding on the Underground...
All Underground trains now play a tone just before the doors swipe shut, so people at least get some warning.
If anyone is going to London, I recommend the Northern Line, which has the last examples of 1959 tube stock running (effectively built to pre-war designs). This still had wooden window frames and guards (which have virtually disappeared from London without complaint). But be quick because they will all be gone in a year at the most.
The surface lines are better for nostalgia, the Metropolitan Line A Stock was built in 1959 but has been refurbished and no-one is even talking about its replacement. These trains run the 6 miles express run between Finchley Road and Harrow-on-the-Hill, sometimes at speeds of 50mph (this is like riding a moving trampoline).
For people with time, visit the Isle of Wight (2 hours from London off the South Coast near Portsmouts). Here, 1938 underground trains are running and will continue for the forseeable future.
10% or more of all train delays and trains being removed from service are due to customers holding doors. A sad but true reality.
In the days before overhauls, most NYCT door motors had thermal overload protection. If the door were held long enough, the overload would trip and the door would just run slow until the reset button on the motor were pressed. Many door operators now do not have that feature. Overheated motors can become a serious problem now.
In addition to electrical problems, the door obstruction sensing system on most cars relies on a door edge rubber that is more rigid than on the old door system. When (you) hold doors, this rubber becomes temporarilly mis-aligned causing it not to mate with the opposing door panel. The result is a 'hung guard light' if the crew can clear it, the train will certainly be delayed. More often, control center will opt to have the crew dicharge the (customers from)the train and have it run light until the condition is cleared.
Is this what causes doors not to open? On the El in Philly, if you rode the El 7 times a day at least 6 or 7 cars would have doors that don't fully open out of 42 cars.
No! Doors failing to open is usually due to electrical failure. When you hold doors, you prevent the doors from closing fully.
Steve- I dont know about NYCT but I recall reading in PATH's PATHways newsletter of dameg done to the door gears from doors being held open-something about the main gear or closer arm or something like that.
Since everyone seems in agreement that door stoppers are a big nuisance, here's a little bit of humour for a Tuesday afternoon, just in time to face the evening rush. A few years ago I was waiting at the College Street Station going uptown on Toronto's Yonge Street line. The first train to pull in was packed, but nonetheless this woman near me just had to get on. Once she squeezed her way in, she turned around to face out. As the doors were closing, someone inside nudged her and she "popped" out of the train. The doors closed and the train took off. The look on her face was priceless and the people waiting on the platform who saw it were in stitches. I hope she thought twice the next time.
You Canadians and your "humoUr":).
But really, if there's one thing that I would like besides trash on a train is a person stuffing themselves into a packed car. And this is true on the BSS at early PM rush southbound, when the kids coming from the North Philly high schools are packed into the trains. BSS cars are considerably large for subway cars, minus the R-44/46 and the L.A. subway cars(which are built to IND/BMT standards, F.Y.I.) and you can only fit so many people into one place. And now that it's getting hot and people are starting to forget their little friend, the roll-on. Whew! That's an experince no one needs.
I was under the impression that the new M-4 cars were OPTO. Well, today as I was disboarding I saw a mna in a cab in the third car, in addition to the front operator. Am I missing something?
Also, there is an intercom that the operator can use as well as the computer voice. I also am going to check out rumors that there is a tour of 69th Street Yard. More later.
Most contracts require an "in service" test as part of the acceptance
process.In most cases,they are expected to operate in regular service
for a period of 48 to 72 hours without a failure of any kind.
During such testing,an engineer or technician from the builder rides
along to observe and document any problems.Diagnostic and monitoring
equipment is often installed in an unused cab.
Hi -- for a novel I'm writing I need to know whether the IRT still gets its power from the plant at 58th St. and 12th Ave. built in 1904. And if so, is it still coal-fired? Has it been converted to oil?
Thanks!
+Nathan
I thought it was at 38th and 11th.
What is your novel about? When will you submit it for publishing? If it's about the subway, I'll be looking forward to reading it! Heck, even if it isn't about the subway, I may give it a skim!
The plant was sold to Con Ed in 1959 and is still in use as part of the Con Ed system. It no longer provides power for subways. It is oil and natural gas fired today. NYC subway power now comes from NY Power Authority, from upstate NY generating facillities.
With no downtown service to Astor Pl, Bleecker,Spring and Canal
until after %/25you would think that the MTA would tell passengers to ride the loop instead of "transfering to an Uptown Local at Brooklyn Bridge"
>until after %/25< READ until after 5/25
During those hours when the 4 is local in Manhattan, it continues on to Brooklyn after crossing over to the express tracksbeofre Brooklyn Bridge, or in this case where there is modified local service (skipping stops) remaining on the express track.
Also the TA would prefer that the trains be empty while going around the loop (prevention of vandalism etc).
Am I missing something?
Isn't the 4 Express between Union Square and Brooklyn Bridge.
Why is skipping downtown Astor,Bleeker,Spring and Canal a service change for this line as well as the 6?
During midnight hours the 4 train runs as a local replacing the 6 train which runs as shuttle from 125/Lex to Pelham.
Hello,
Does anyone know which lines the R110s are currently being used on?
Thanks,
- Jose Ramos
The R110A's were on the #2 train, but they've currently been yanked from service due to brake problems.
As far as I know, the R110B is still running on the A line. Look for them in both the morning and evening rush hour, Tuesday thru Friday...I think thats when they run, maybe someone else can verify that though.-Nick
Too bad they have brake problems . Another quality control issue.
Can't anyone get it right anymore!
By the way, is anyone going to Hoboken "tru transit first"
tommorow (sat. -may 16) - I'll be there crawling all over the trains.
Currently, both the R110's A&B are in the 207 train yard for repairs.
D-Train
Thanks, guys. D-Train, when are they expected back into service?
And, HAS ANYONE HERE ever ridden in an R110? I certainly haven't. What is it like?
- Jose
Good qustion, Jose...I wish I knew when they were going back in service myself. I've only ridden the R110A. It's pretty neat....you feel like your in the 21st century...thats how high-tech they are. Go to the illustrated car roster for more information.-Nick
I was once on an R-110B on a trip in '94. It was pretty neat. I'm proud to say that I've been on every New York subway car since the R-32(but not when it was new in '64.)
I have ridden on every piece of postwar equipment with the exception of the R-110s on the A line (I can't remember if that's the A or B version), and vividly remember the R-32s when they were brand new. Their blue doors and side destination signs illuminated in green won me over immediately. The R-38s looked spiffy when they were new, too, with the blue band at the belt rail. Of the prewar equipment, I have ridden the R-1/9s and BMT standards. I remember seeing Q units on the Myrtle Ave. line before they went out of service, but didn't ride them.
I work for NJ Transit Rail in Hoboken, NJ and top mangt. was talking about how we are going to asst. NYCTA with trucking the car's away because we have the eqpt. to handle the job and they don't
Hey Rashad! It's Jack! You met me on the new El in Philly a few weeks back. How do you like the site?
Riding the R-110B is very similar to riding the 01800 series of cars on the Red Line in Boston. And the doors go BONGBONG
You mean instead of DING DONG??? I can't imagine BONG BONG in NYC!!!
I hope they don't have the same announcing voice as the 01800's -- Maybe they could get Rudy to record the station stop announcements!
The BSS has DING-DONG's and BONG-BONG's. Go figure. Philly and our schizo subways.
When they go back in service try the A line and the #2 line.
The R110A's are out of service due to cracks in the wheel trucks.
I am not sure what the story on the R110b's are in the shop for. But I believe it is braking problems
As Yogi Berra once said, "That's deja vu all over again". Was Rockwell International behind this again?
Today's SI Advance indicates that the Guiliani administration has left
out a $14M operating subsidy of the Staten Island Railway, in a dispute
with the MTA. SIR, (which the paper calls 'the only city-owned part of
NYCT..) operates at a constant loss, which is offset mostly by the
city. The city wants the MTA to foot more of the bill to 'equalize'
the spending between the city and suburbs from the surplus generated by
MTA Bridge tolls....
-Hank
The Mayor seems to come up with a new way to try to get our of the bad deals with the MTA and the Port Authority every day, but none of them seem to work. Do any of the other counties contribute local tax dollars to the MTA, other than the state taxes allocated to the MTA directly?
Unfortunately, the Mayor seems to have concluded that mass transit is a state responsibility, and the state is already collecting taxes to pay for it. Any local funding will just allow the state to redirect its own resources, substantially raised in the city, elsewhere. The MTA does not agree. The result of the stalemate is a low level of investment in NYC.
That's why I believe, as an advocate for more transportation spending, that we would be better off with no state, regional, and federal level transportation funding. Each locality would make the transport investments it thinks are necessary, rather than postponing them until someone else will pay. I think that's why the Manhattan Bridge mess has gone on for so long. The MTA says its the city's bridge. The city says its the state's subway.
The theory was that since NYC has the burden of two-thirds of the region's poor, funds would flow in from wealthier places, but it hasn't worked out that way. Money flows to power, not to need, and everyone seems to gang up on the city. I think the city is strong enough to stand on its own.
The Mayor keeps cutting off city transportation fundings to try to get a bigger share of the state and regional pie. I wish he would adopt a "you pay for yours, we'll pay for ours, and we'll cut out the middleman" philosophy. It would play well upstate. Let'em just give the city back the TA, the TBTA, the MTA taxes raised the city, and the state taxes city residents and businesses pay. I've had it with the Vampire State.
The city has apparently been subsidising the SIRT since the 1950's,
when the B & O Railroad first threatened to abandon the service. I
think that the MTA took it over from the B & O in 1969, but with the
NYC subsidy continuing. The B & O let the line fall into disrepair, and was still using 1925 equipment when the MTA 'acquired' it. In fact, the SIRT had grade crossing with manual gates until the final grade crossing elimination in 1968!
Might this just be another one of those incidents when people forget that Staten Island IS A PART OF NEW YORK CITY?
I hear that the City of Chicago may do more than just steam clean the State St. Subway. Does anyone know how extensive the revovations plans are??
Because I'm a regular rider on the Ravenswood 'L', I don't get an opportunity to get into the subway much. However, on Friday afternoon I had a need to get over to North Michigan Avenue. From there I used the State Street Subway to get to Belmont. I did notice not only was the Chicago/State station cleaner, it was brighter. The walls that are not tiled, those in the track areas have been painted or whitewashed. The track area was CLEAN. There are new signs on the 'L' and in the subway warning about NO SMOKING. Now, just maybe, we can get those transit police to stop drinking coffee and start issuing citations to those who feel they must smoke on the crowded platform.
As for EXTENSIVE renovations, I've not heard anything. This coming weekend the CERA is having its 60th Anniversary. At the festivities I'll ask the CTA types if there is anything afoot and report back.
Have fun at the CERA meetings and tours. I will not be able to be there but it looks like they have a great weekend of tours on Saturday, Sunday and Monday, and good food too. I will try and get to a few meetings this fall.
Do you have the schedule? Some people here might want to see what is planned. I will try and find mine tomorow.
CERA EVENTS - MAY 22 THRU MAY 25
· FRIDAY EVENING MAY 22ND
· 7:30PM
PALMER HOUSE
RAYMOND DE GROOTE JR
SLIDE PRESENTATION
"WHAT 60 YEARS HATH WROUGHT"
· SATURDAY MAY 23RD
· 9 AM - 5 PM
METRA - IC ELECTRIC CHARTER
LV. RANDOLPH ST STATION 9 AM
· SUNDAY MAY 24TH
· 9 AM - 5 PM
FOX RIVER & ILLINOIS RAILWAY MUSEUM TRIP
LV. PALMER HOUSE 9 AM
· MONDAY MAY 25TH
· 9 AM - 5 PM
CTA ‘L’ CHARTER - NORTH SIDE LINES
LV. ROSEMONT @ 8 AM
LV. ADAMS/WABASH ‘L’ @ 9 AM
The following is a partial offical CTA release on the subject.
Text of the Press Release follows.
Red Line Gets a Shine:
Subway Trains Rerouted for Major Cleaning Project
The Chicago Transit Authority is announcing one of the biggest spring cleaning projects in the agency's history. As part of the project the State Street Subway and stations that serve the Red (Howard-Dan Ryan) Line will undergo a major cleaning, including rodding out the sewers and drains.
The cleaning will be done early Sunday mornings, causing Red Line trains to be rerouted to the elevated tracks between Fullerton and Cermak-Chinatown stations. In addition, CTA bus shuttles will be in place to accommodate Red Line customers using the North/Clybourn, Clark/Division, Chicago/State, and Grand/State stations. The State Street Subway will remain closed on Sundays only from 1am to 9am, when ridership is at its lowest, to allow CTA crews to perform a number of maintenance activities.
"We felt in order to do this major cleaning job right, we needed to close the Red Line Subway during the hours when we would inconvenience the fewest number of riders at these busy downtown stations," said CTA President Frank Kruesi. "The heavy ridership on the Red Line during the week prevents CTA staff from effectively navigating the power washing equipment around our customers. It takes a great deal of elbow grease to remove decades of dirt and grime."
The cleaning process will include:
• Power washing of subway stations and subway walls with hot pressurized water
• Power rodding out of all subway sewers and drains
• Detailed cleaning of all walls, floors, columns, and equipment
• Electrical and carpentry work
• Repairs to lights and light shields
• Painting of the subway tubes
• Escalator repairs.
Over the past year, the CTA has made a strong commitment to cleaner, better maintained stations. Through a reorganization of the Maintenance Department last year, the work force can be deployed more effectively, resulting in increased productivity.
Since 1996, the CTA has invested $270,000 in 30 power washers to better clean facilities. These power washers use hot, pressurized water and soap to clean stations, stairways, and platforms. Power washers can blast off dirt and graffiti, and even remove chewing gum in less time, with more efficiency and better results than manual cleaning. Last year, the CTA spent $40 million on a Neighborhood Station Improvement Program to improve 122 rail stations with new coats of paint, windbreaks, trash receptacles, and construction work.
In addition to the intensive cleaning process on the Red Line, several capital improvements will also be made, such as grouting of ceilings to prevent dripping, replacement of railroad ties, and reconditioning of some rail system signals.
Stations along the Blue, Brown, Green, Yellow, Purple, and Orange Lines will also be power washed and receive the same detailed cleaning as part of the agency's effort to make rail stations more attractive and pleasing to CTA customers. Unlike on the Red Line, it is unnecessary to close rail stations on any of the other CTA lines while they are being cleaned, since they do not carry the same high volume of riders as the Red Line.
Here's a Seinfeldian observation:
What's the deal with painting subway tubes? I mean it's not as if the public can really see anything in the dark:)
Good observation Jack. The sad part of it is, that no one at the CTA probably thought about that. But, quite possibly, they may have mistakenly ordered way too much whitewash. I don’t know for sure, but anything could have happened. What I think they mean, however, is that "tube" wall opposite the subway platform.
Remember, this is an agency that is still patting itself on the back because they discovered they could purchase some "light shields" at Ace Hardware for about $1 a piece vs. paying a supplier around $7. The original shields were installed when the subway was built in 1943 and were all but gone. The OPERATORS were complaining about "headaches" from the 50 watt "exposed" bulbs while motoring through the subway.
Now if they could only bring back conductors on the Red line over its entire length to speed things up a bit...
Oh yes! Conductors' job's on the Red Line, at least when four, six or eight car trains are in operation, should be re-instated.
However, the dollars have already been spent on the "mini - conversion" to one-person operation. CTA management wouldn’t admit they had made a mistake. Although I don’t want to see it happen, only an incident/accident would pressure the authority to relent now. Indeed, these are very sad times for my favorite rapid transit system.
Speeding things up on the Red Line is one thing, however, some of the OPERATORS have become very sloppy in train operation. Remember, there is no conductor to turn them in now. Part of the conductor’s job was to make sure ALL car doors were platformed. Last week I had to ride from Howard to Belmont, as I missed the last express, on a 95/Dan Ryan local. At two stations the OPERATOR stopped the train with the first door not on the platform - i. e. passing the "X" point. This is VERY risky business.
One thing the CTA doesn’t need at this time is a lawsuit on its hands.
My aunt feels service has gotten pretty deplorable. She lives right next to the Red line, a block south of Bryn Mawr, and said she had to wait 25 minutes for a train recently. It took forever for the operator to open the doors, make announcements, close the doors, and get going. This scenario was repeated at every stop. Not only that, but the operator would stop at the station entrance, then crawl into the station on several occasions.
I think you're right: they won't bring back conductors until an incident occurs.
Thanks for your help! Maybe one day I can finally ride a R110A or B!
- Jose
I hope you can, Jose! I remember when I was in Times Square station last year on 12/30, and the R110A was approaching the station...I was siked!! But even if you don't get to ride them, have no fear...The R142 will be arriving starting in April of next year...and they will be similar to the R110 series, only hopefully with more seats and more handrails!-Nick
What happened? Only 73 out of 1000 messages posted? I can't get on the internet every day, therefore I missed a lot of stuff.
Go here http://www.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?reconfigure
and scroll down to the part where it says
Listed only those messages
- Posted within the last _________(Change
this to week, two weeks, month, severel eons)
Many thanks for the info. The messages I can use have been returned.
I hear that R-44s are running in service with brake units disconnected and upper managememnt knows it. Are they crazy or what?
What are your sources? I "hear" lots of things too but that's a pretty bold statement to make with nothing to back it up.
-Dave
I happen to know that mechanics were ordered to disconnect leaking brake units instead of replacing them because my cousin works at the Pitkin Avenue yard. He told me not to ride the "A" line.
All the more reason to wait for an A train of R-38s. That's just what we need - trains which can't stop. Those R-44s ought to be pulled from service until satisfactory repairs can be made. But, of course, they'll probably continue to run as they are until there's an accident, at which time the s*** will hit the fan.
Dave,
Thanks for all the great updates you've made to nycsubway.org this past week....they are terrific! I especially like the photos under the nycsubway.org logo....and how they change every day or two. It's great to see all the trains from the past and present.-Nick
Does anyone have any idea where I can find some HO scale models of any of the Boston SUBWAY(not Green Line)cars, bothe old and new?
Does anyone have any idea where I can find some HO scale models of any of the Boston SUBWAY(not Green Line)cars, both old and new?
The following is posted on the NYCT web site. They are shutting down the Queens Blvd. IND line from Roosevelt Ave. to Manhattan on selected Sundays. I assume this is for continued construction of the 63rd Street connection.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
E F R No Service Between Manhattan and Queens
SUNDAYS, 12:01 am Sunday to 5 am Monday, May 31 to June1, June 14 to 15, July 12 to 13.
Please use the 7 to travel between Manhattan and Queens.
Transfer between the 7 and E F at 74 St-Roosevelt Av.
During these times, the R runs on the N line in Queens.
No E service between Roosevelt Av and the World Trade Center
To reach Manhattan E stations from Queens, take the 7 to Times Sq and transfer to the A or C.
To reach Queens E stations from Manhattan, take the A or C to 42 St and transfer to the 7.
Transfer from the 7 to the E at 74 St/Roosevelt Av.
No F service between Roosevelt Av and 42 St/6 Av.
To reach Manhattan F stations, take the 7 to 5 Av and transfer to the B or D. To reach Queens
F stations from Manhattan, take the F to 42 St and transfer to the 7. Transfer from the 7 to the F
at 74 St/Roosevelt Av.
No R service between Lexington Av and 71-Continental Avs.
R service will run between 95 St, Brooklyn and Ditmars Blvd N, Queens. Note: Regular R
shuttle runs between 95 and 36 Sts, 12:01 am to 5 am. To reach Manhattan R stations, take
the 7 at 74 St/Roosevelt Av to Queensboro Plaza and transfer to the N or R. To reach Queens
R stations from Manhattan, take the N or R to Times Sq or Queensboro Plaza and transfer to
the 7. Take the 7 to 74 St and transfer to the F. The F will make local stops between Roosevelt
Av and 179 St.
To reach Brooklyn G stations from Queens:, take the 7 to 45 Rd-Court House Sq and ask for a
transfer ticket. *Walk one block to the Court Sq G station and give your transfer ticket to the
station agent.
To reach Queens G stations from Brooklyn, take the G to Court Sq and get a transfer ticket at
the station booth. *Walk one block to the 45 Rd-Court House Sq 7 and give your transfer ticket
to the station agent. Take the 7 to 74 St and transfer to the F.
From 12:01 am to 5 am, a special bus will provide service between the G and the 7 at Court
Sq.
The 65 St, Northern Blvd, 46 St and Steinway St stations will be served by a shuttle
bus
To reach Manhattan from these stations, take the shuttle bus to the Queensboro Plaza 7/N
station.
To reach these stations from Manhattan, take the 7 N or R to Queensboro Plaza and transfer to
the shuttle bus.
To reach Jamaica from these stations, take the shuttle bus to Roosevelt Av/74 St for the E F.
To reach these stations from Jamaica, take the E or F to Roosevelt Av and transfer to the
shuttle bus.
To reach Brooklyn G stations from these stations, take the shuttle bus to the Queensboro Plaza
7 station, take the 7 one stop to 45 Rd-Court House Sq and get a transfer ticket; walk one
block to the Court Sq G station and give your transfer ticket to the station agent.
To reach these stations from Brooklyn, take the G to Court Sq and ask for a transfer ticket;
walk one block to the 45 Rd-Court House Sq 7 station and give your transfer ticket to the
station agent; take the 7 to Queensboro Plaza and transfer to the shuttle bus.
Station Shuttle Bus Stops
Steinway St on 34 Av at Steinway St
46 St on Broadway at 46 St
Northern Blvd on Broadway at Northern Blvd
65 St on Broadway at 65 St
Customers who use the 36 St station should use the nearby 39 Av (Beebe Av) station on the N
line instead.
The Queens Plaza, 23 St-Ely Av, Lexington Av-53 St and 5 Av-53 St stations will be
closed during this time.
I was looking over a subway map on Sunday and noticed that the Clark St. station wasn't listed as a handicapped access stop. But wait! Last time I was in NYC, I visited a friend on Hicks Street and took the '3' to Clark and remember getting on an elevator to the surface and being inside some plaza or shopping place. Why wasn't Clark noted as one?
To be listed as "accessible" the station has to have access from the street all the way to the platform.
Clark Street has stairs from platform to mezzanine-therefore it is not accessible.(also 168 and 181 IRT for same reason.)
I guess I'll have to reach back in the old memory banks. BTW, did the 'A' train ever service WTC? Was the station purposely built the way it is because it was destined to be a terminal or was it too much to dig 300 feet from the WTC to the Fulton St. subway or just forgo the WTC stop altogether?
Wait! I just remembered it used to be Hudson Terminal. So nix forgetting it.
The two part IND station now called Chambers St/WTC is basically unchanged since it opened in 1932. The southern (local) terminal station was built to turn back local trains operating to/from the Bronx and Upper Manhattan, because only the express trains were routed into the the two track tunnel from Fulton St. to Brooklyn.
In order for the express trains to curve into Fulton St., that part of the station had to be built further north.
Yes, the station was originally called Chambers St/Hudson Terminal in the pre-WTC days. You can still see some old "H & M" white on black wall tiles in the station. When WTC opened in the early 70's the south end of the local platform conveniently became a direct entrance into the WTC complex.
I worked at WTC from 1974 to 1982, so I know the area well.
If I'm not mistaken, the IND local tracks which dead end at WTC were supposed to continue onto South Ferry, tunnel under the East River, and connect to the Fulton St. Line at Court St., where the Transit Museum is now. The 2nd Ave. line was supposed to connect with this line, too.
I can't help but think of what New York would be like today if the entire IND Second System had been built - flying junctions, crisscrossing branch interconnections. It would have been quite elaborate and intricate.
If that was the case, why is Court St. a dead end station? Was it built sometime after they did away with the Second System or before, which wouldn't really be the most prudent act I could name.
P.S.-I haven't been to the WTC since '94. When I went, I took the IND but wnat to know if you can access the BMT and IRT lines that stop at Cortlandt/WTC or do you go to another level or outside. Also, how far is it from South Ferry to Cort/WTC? Lower Manhattan isn't a long stretch of land and if they is one stop between S.F. and WTC, it would be shorter than the average distance between stations on a given subway line.
I believe there is a connection inside the same place. Are you talking about the level with the bookstore and the mini-mall? I've never been to the IRT or BMT at the WTC either. Actually they're really Cortlandt/WTC. Just call it what it is, WTC!
All of the lines stop within the WTC "mall". Now as far as free transfers:
To/From BMT: No
To/From: IRT Local to South Ferry: No
That leaves INS and IRT Express" Yes- there is a free transfer between the 2/3/A/C/E.
There is no free transfer from A/C/E/2/3 to the 1 or N/R Of Course once the unlimited rides start then this point is meaningless.
From the WTC go to the A/C/E/2/3. FOllow the passageway to the A which also connects to the 2/3 or enter the E platform and walk to the extreme front end and go up the stairs-here again a connection to the A and to the 2/3.)
The extra side platform at WTC local has been reconfigured to be a part of the free zone (by moving the railings). and yes- the homeless have adopted the wider free passageway.
(based on personal observation of the area)
The Cortlandt-WTC station on the BMT actually still has signs on tile (adjacent to the underpass from the WTC concourse to the N/B plat) pointing to the "Hudson Tubes". On the lead into the stub terminal at WTC, one can see the remnants of the roadbed which had been started to route IND trains as part of some grand plan referred to above.
That roadbed leading off the stub tracks before the station was supposed to go under Worth St., cross over the East Broadway station on the F line, continue under the East River, and join a second line which would have continued from the stub tracks at 2nd Ave. at South 4th St., a shell of which is in place above the Broadway station on the G.
There are mezzanine steps after the elevator. Funny you should mention Clark St. July will be the 10th anniversary of my meeting Mrs. Westinghouse. Strangely enough, we met waiting for a Manhattan-bound train. We were both headed to Times Square and were talking on the platform. Led to dates, led to marriage and my best 10 years.
There is currently a modular sub-station being built right over the western portal of the MFSE. Is this somehow linked to the soon-to-be-underway el reconstructing?
I think it is. When construction starts, service will most likely be over one track. So coming out of the tunnel, where's the current gonna go?
Any word on when this service will be suspended? And, will the two northern roadways be shut down along with the rails?
Anyone know how they are conducting the reconstuction of the Lenox Tunnel. Are the going to renforce the tunnel or simply build a new one?
Reconstruction of the tunnel is only secondary. The main effort of the work is to find, cap and redirect a natural spring in the vicinity of 116 St. The water seeps into the tunnel and everything shifts, causing constant maintainance problems, so the decision was made to get rid of the water. Of course this is easier said than done. Last I heard, they still hadn't found the source. Once the plumbing work is done, a new roadbed will be built (the old having been torn away) and 116 St northbound will be rebuilt - at the beginning of the project, this staion was completely gutted: no tiles, no platform, no stairs
You can find detailed info on this at the MTA homepage at www.mta.nyc.ny.us
Thanks
Thanks!!
I did some research on the line on 5/23/1998. Just South of 110, they cwitch the train over to the downtown side(Southbound track) to run to North of 135 where they switch you back.
At 110 plywood walls block the view of the uptown side of the island platform.Likewise for 116.
At 125 there is just fencing. Looking through the fence, there is a new roadbed, track and third rail for the uptown track and the center track. there is still tons of running water at 125,especially on the Downtown side.
At 135 there is no water uptown but some water downtown.
There were workers(lots of them) at 116,125, and 135. I did not *see* any at 110 but heard jackhammers in the tunnel between 110 and 116 as well as the rest of the tunnel from 116 to 135.
According to the latest G.O. I have **seen* (week 22-98) June 28th they are **supposed** to reopen the uptown side and close the downtown side. At that time 116 will be closed for the duration of the project.
(If they actually can do it remains to be seen.)
****opinions expressed are my own and not those of MTA or NYCT****
To my knowledge, they will never stop the water, but they will isolate it from the subway. I'm sure that the project will run over, but as to not to get the community upset, NYCT won"t announce it until they near the scheduled end of the project, so they may know how many months overdue it will go. THE OPINION EXPRESSED HERE IS MY OWN BASED ON MY KNOWLEDGE OF HOW THE TA OPERATES.
To Whom it May Concern,
I would like to know from any busbuffs if you happen to have pictures of WMATA buses running on NYCT from late 1980 until mid 1981, please post your information on Subtalk.
Yesterday, I was on the last car of a train of M-4's. When I got off I saw that the car, #1031, was coupled. But wait! All the M-4's were married pairs, not coupled and this was the last(i.e.-single) car. What gives?
Isn’t a two-car married set connected via a permanent "tongue" or drawbar, and fitted with couplers on the other ends? Thus, "married" pairs still need to "couple" to other married pairs. On CTA ‘L’ cars the "tongue" is a drawbar about one foot in diameter. If memory serves me correctly the M3’s are equipped the same. I think this is the most common method.
Nope. The car had a rear coupler and whatever the connection was to the next car(the M-4's are not put in order, so you'll find trains in this order-1032-1033-1045-1046-1004-1005) is was not married as all the others are. The connection looked like the one made between pipes and other plumbing, like a plumbing joint(if that's the right word).
You've got me guessing. Look's like it is time to make a trip back East to visit the folks and use that as an excuse to ride and photograph these NEW cars!
How is the acceleration on these M4's anyway. Bet it doesn't match the torque the M3's have. Nothing impressed me more than the whine of an M3 train as it pulls away from the station, especially in the subway! I can still hear it in my mind even though I haven’t ridden on the MKT-FKD in years.
What is the HP rating of these NEW cars? I remember the M3’s were 400 HP per car. Not bad for a 55 ft. stainless steel machine.
You know I don't know:). The max speed is 55 for some strange reason. The M-3's seemed faster to me but you'll have to see for yourself.
It's pickup speed is 3ft/ps.
May I give you some words of wisdom:
When looking down the tunnel for one, if you see a train with no top headlamps and green lettering, prepare to ride the M-4.
When boarding, the doors open a little slow. Be patient but don't be beaten to the seat in front of the front window(a feature not on the El since it opened), it's nice.
The trains can be quite cold and rock way more than the M-3's did. You'll hear the people around you talking about it. Don't be afraid to hop in with some of your knowledge if they ask a question and you "overhear them".
It makes a distintive sound when entering the station. So have fun.
Green lettering, I though MKT-FKD was the "Blue" Line?
Don't let the colors confuse you. Apparently SEPTA is about to give up on the color designations and go back to the Market-Frankford, Broad St, etc that everyone has continued to use.
Also, a note on the M-4's. My understanding was that the cars would not be married and would be more like their B-IV cousins (except for not being called by Roman numerals?), which are independent units and can be coupled in any combination as long as a train has cabs at both ends. Is this not correct?
The M-4's are in married pairs and go like this: A-B. The lead car of the two has a cab in the front and the trailer doesn't have one anywhere. There are six cars to an El train so you have 3 cabs per train, three trailers per train.
The green lettering I mentioned was that of the electric signs. The letter designation(A or B) was never blue, but white.
As for the comment about SEPTA's referral to the "blue line" or the "orange line", the color coding, just like in NYC, is simply a way of identifying it on a map and though also valid when using it as a clue as to which line you want, though most Philadelphians(at least the ones who use the subway or El) never refer to it as the "blue" or "orange" line, most will know what you're talking about. But be forewarned. You could be targeted as an out-of-towner and if you ask the wrong person.....
Adding to the identification of lines in Philadelphia. As long as I can remember the Market-Frankford Line was the "EL" and the Broad Street Line was the "subway". Even when the MKT-FKD is running underneath Market Street, most people I know refer to it as the "EL". Since there are only two systems in the city this distinction worked and probably still works.
You damn skippy it still works.
Ah, how a man can dream. Or formulate ideas that make sense.
Here's one. If we ever see trains under 2nd Avenue and the NYCTA wants to bring Chrstmas to New York, try this.
A tunnel along Metropolitan Avenue in Brooklyn, stopping possibly at Union Turnpike and a line(an El) in the Bronx, somewhat parallel to but south of the Pelham line, stopping at Zerega Av. Make this the 8 train, the line mysteriously absent from between the '7' and the '9'.
Eliminate the '9' train(this comes from a man who lived in New York from '82 to '93) and possibly the 'Q' and 'E', especially the 'Q'. How many expresses do you need?
Put some tracks across the Verrazano Bridge and finally connect S.I. to the rest of New York. Wasn't I the burnt one whne I found out the only way to S.i. short of driving or swimming was the ferry and no rail.
So, just some crazy ideas. Maybe I should stay away from the cafe lattes and the junior mints.
There's been a thread on nyc.transit about the lack of a subway connection over the Verrazano Narrows bridge. Basically, the bridge as built cannot accomodate a subway line, primarily because of the extremely long ramps that would be required to get over the bridge's high span.
I respected his dreams and I would like to second the motion, Staten
Island should be connected to the rest of the city. And while we are on the topic, rehab the North Shore line to serve the people who live on that side of the island!
D-Train
That will take at least 5 years from when they decide to do it, the line is in horrible shape. Buildings will need to be demolished, a large seawall built (of course, you need an environmental impact statement for that) and leave Staten Island alone......
We're happy here.....
-Hank
Hank,
Over the past few months I've read your comments regarding the
transit situation in NYC with respect,because you exhibited a definite
knowledge regarding the subject. As a Brooklynite who travels to Staten Island only on the weekend I am taking back by your comment of
leave "Staten Island alone". Take in consideration if you lived on the
North side of the island instead of the south. You would want equal
and fair treatment in regard to your transportation needs!
It appears that a certain segment of the population on the island
does feel that they are a part of the city. I am sick and tired of
hearing that Staten Island does not want to be connected to the rest
of the city. Examples given: increased crime, not in my neighborhood,
the subway is not needed and all the other insensitive reasons which
divides a city. Hank, I've enjoyed your comments and will continue to
but keep an open mind, because the island is part of the city.
D-Train
If I lived on the North Shore, I'd have much better access to transit then I do on the south shore. No latre night service, no weekend service, no service after 7pm....
I don't want to see a connection to the Subway from SI, even though I, and several thousand others would make use of it on a daily basis. I have watched the areas around where I live change over the last 18 years, and places where I was able to ride my bike freely as a child no longer exist, because 4 homes have been built on a plot of land the size of my parent's semi-attached....Open space is dissappearing faster than schools can be built to serve the new families. It has less to do with crime than it does with turning Staten Island into Queens. The population density is increasing, and the available space is decreaseing. The open space is the reason many families, my own included, came here.
I travel from my home to the Bronx at least once a week, because my girlfriend lives there. It takes me 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 hours to travel. I go to baseball games at Shea (It only took me 2 hours to get home Friday, I'm shocked) and a direct connection would make these trips that much easier. But I prefer the slow growth to the faster growth that a direct link would bring.
-Hank
Hank,
We can agree to disagree on the direct subway link. But I do agree with you on the fact that Staten Island available land is decreasing. I attend the white church on Richmond Ave, near the new Waldbums shopping center. I just feel that NYC is becoming over saturated with the automobile and alternative transportation needs to
be explored.
Take for example, St.Louis, the advent of light rail as really boostered the city image as well as San Diego, Denver, and Dallas to name a few. Anyway, I glad you clarified your position and continue
to write interesting responses to questions pose by the users.
D-Train
I agree with you totally! All we taxpaying Staten Islanders want is to
be left alone, and not to have big government projects rammed down our
collective throats. The last time I checked, it wasn't a crime to want to live in a quiet, safe neighborhood. Sad to say, mass transit does not always improve a neighborhood.
Dan (New Dorp)
The absence of subway tracks on the Verrazano Narrows Bridge is the legacy of Robert Moses. He was TBTA chairman in the period (1959-64 ) the bridge was constructed. His hostility to mass transit was well known, and he refused to allow provision for train tracks on the bridge. A logical connection could have taken the N or R trains to Staten Island to connect with SIRT. As many of my fellow buffs already know, the SIRT was electrified in 1925 and equipped with BMT style MU cars in anticipation of a tunnel link that never happened.
While the grades on the bridge are certainly steep, remember that subway trains have crossed the Manhattan and Williamsburgh Bridges since early in this century.
Enough of this 'trains across the Verrazano' nonsense! The facts are very simple. There are about 400,000 people on Staten Island. Everyone family has at least one car, most have two or three cars. We like driving around in big, air-conditioned automobiles. The introduction of E-Z Pass has greatly improved the flow across VN Bridge. Taking two lanes for rail service would permanently jam up the VNB. Staten Islanders are quite happy with express bus service into Manhattan. Aside from the immense cost of extending the BMT across this span, and condemning large swaths of private property for a link to the SIR, WE DON'T NEED OR WANT A DIRECT SUBWAY LINK OUT HERE!! Tax dollars can be better spent on SI by adressing the traffic problems on the Islands main roads like Hylan Blvd, not by some 'transit advocate's' billion-dollar nightmare.
Unfortunately, a very reasonable and modest road transportation improvement proposal put forward by the SI borough president was confronted with an immediate cry of NIMBY! Then it diappeared. You just can't win the borough of kvetchers.
Staten Island's population of 400,000 might very well be enough to support a subway line. Figure it this way - the Bronx, with about three times Staten Island's population, has *five* subway lines, plus commuter rail, plus express buses. Obviously there are some differences between the boroughs, such as higher car ownership rates on Staten Island, but even with these differences I'm confident that the demand exists.
Something else occurred to me about Staten Island. With all this NIMBY talk, one could be excused for thinking that the borough is all one upscale, leafy suburban paradise. But that's definitely not true, as I learned quite vividly.
A few years ago, I decided to take the Ferry and walk around Staten Island for a while. I knew very little about it and had no real destination in mind. After looking at a bus map in the St. George terminal, I decided to walk west along the North Shore, and eventually turn south to Forest Avenue where there were buses.
After walking about 45 minutes, maybe somewhat less, it slowly dawned on me that the neighborhood (probably West New Brighton, I wasn't sure) was looking quite rundown and none too friendly. Then something happened that took me by complete surprise. As I passed a police car on a corner, one of the cops motioned me over and told me that it wasn't a smart idea for me to be in that neighboorhood! Never before or since has anything like that happened to me, and I've walked in many different areas in New York and elsewhere.
Needless to say, I took the cop's advice and asked for directions to the nearest bus stop :-)
It's bad, but not THAT bad. I wouldn't want to be there alone, or without a large group of people at night, but it's different at night.
The worst part of your walk was probably in the vicinity of Jersey St, really the worst area along that shore. But overall, staenisland is very similar to some parts of Queens. Everyone seems to have a neighborhood.
-Hank
The population of the entire borough could support a subway line, but it is spread out over an area the size of Brooklyn. I'll never forget seeing a land use map with the two boroughs side by side, at the same scale. No matter where you put one subway line, it will be a drain. If you build five or six, it will be a real drain.
The borough can support a more extensive express bus system. And if everyone can get to one or two points, it can support transit at those points. That's why the ferry works. Perhaps there should be another ferry terminal with more highway access.
Less highways. I'd like to see them either convert to LRT, or electrify the Richmond ave, Victory Blvd, and Hylan Blvd bus routes, along with most of the express lines into Manhattan. They talk about saving the environment, but do nothing. We don't even have a single alt-fuel city vehicle out here....including the boro presidents...
-Hank
I like the idea of expanding the St. George/South Ferry terminals or building other ferry terminals to support SI's commuters. Here's a thought: provide trolley service to the ferries. Let's face it, the likelyhood of several SI subway lines being built is somewhere around 0%. SI subway service (right or wrong) falls somewhere behind the 2 Avenue line and redoing the Culver line (and probably half-a-dozen other projects) on the priority list. Trollies can serve local communities and run to ferry terminals without disrupting traffic if they have limited stop service. Bus service will not change. In my less than humble opinion, everyone is a winner with this set-up.
I would just like to see a combine and expanded entrance for the 1/9 and the N, R trains at south ferry, that are Handicapped Accessable. The only way to do that a whithall now would be with two elevators from at least street level. When the new ferry terminal is eventually built, it will be accessible, and thus the second level could have elevators to the subway stations below....one of these days, I'll have a drawing for it...
-Hank
I don't think there is any part of Staten Island with the density to support a trolley, let alone a subway, without a 99 percent subsidy. And they like it that way. Trolley tracks would take away scarce street lanes (Staten Island doesn't have roads either -- no wonder they want to secede).
I think it would be better to covert the SIRT, and the extend the north shore line, as dedicated busways. One route could run along the lines, pulling off to the side to stop at "stations" as the SIRT does, to the ferry. Other routes could run along local streets, get on the busways, then run express to the ferry. Express buses could run through the island picking up passengers, then get up on the bus road and run express the Verranzano - the busway could be extended in a rebuilt Gowanus to the Tunnel. North shore express buses could stop at the ferry terminal before proceding express to the Verranzano. All the buses would avoid all those stoplights, and the congestion on Bay Street. A busway could also be built in the Staten Island Expressway ROW, leading to a trunk system with "branches" throughout the island. Hell of a lot cheaper than building eight subway lines, each of which would have very few riders in walking distance, though not cheap.
According to the SIRT schedule, just eight trains arrive to St. George at the peak hour. That's one every 7.5 minutes. Imagine how many buses could use the ROW in 7.5 minutes. And not loud, smelly diesels either, but natural gas to start and maybe fuel cell in the future. Or perhaps a combination of trackless trolley in SI and fuel cell in Manhattan, where there would be no overhead wire. If nothing else, two buses, each with a bus driver, could run every 3 minutes rather than one train, with an operator and a conductor, every 7.5.
Fun to think about, but even if we had a billion, no way any change would win political approval on Staten Island. Not until a politician figures out how to mobilize the tens of thousands of regular people who want improvements and have confidence in the future, but don't show up to public meetings, and ignore the fearful, cranky SOBs who do.
What is this "reasonable and modest" road proposal you were referring to? Could it be completion of the Richmond Parkway? I think there is just about nothing blocking the right-of-way of where this highway would go, and the giant "interchange to nowhere" where it would meet the S.I. Expressway stands as a mocking monument to failed plans as long as it sits there unused.
Nothing as extensive as building Richmond Parkway, or any highway for that matter. In fact the Boro President has proposed to Demap it (it still on the official city map), and has been lukewarm on widening the SI Expressway. Basically, the plan was to widen and improve existing signalized boulevards, adding turn lanes in many cases, a short tunnel under Richmondtown, extending Capodino Blvd to Great Kills (thru Miller Field), having the Willowbrook end at the SI Campus -- adding a few feet and a ramp -- and connecting Richmond Parkway directly to Richmond Ave, rather than having an exit from a parkway which does not continue.
We could use a little of that thinking in Brooklyn. If one is willing to concede that we're not going to tear down neighborhoods to build highways, and also to concede (unlike some crazys) that roads are in fact necessary for buses, trucks making deliveries, emergency vehicles, and those driving to places transit doesn't go, we could use a lot of arterial road improvements in Brooklyn. I've go a little list of my own. Arterials can get you places if they have at least 5 to 1 signal priority over the side streets, but when two arterials cross there is a back up. What's worse is a four lane arterial on a commercial street. Double parkers block the right line, left turners block the left land, and that's it.
Underpasses are expensive, but not compared with highways (or subway lines for that matter). There should be some integration between rethinking the roads and redrawing the bus routes. The buses take forever.
The Richmond Parkway is well on it's way to being de-mapped. The boro president recently came out with an 11-point road plan. Included in this was the extension of the Willowbrook (Martain Lurthur King) Expressway to Forest Hill Rd, extending Father Capoanno Blvd to New Dorp Lane, the extension of Forest Hill Rd from the intersection with Platinum Ave to its intersection with Yukon Ave.
Of these mentioned projects, only the Forest Hill Rd extension is underway. An aditional plan was for the connection from Richmond ave to what is now the Koren War Vetrans Memorial Parkway, to avoid several intersections and reduce traffic on local roads in the area. My last understanding of this project was that it had been funded, and is in the planning stages.
-Hank
Speak for yourself, Dan. I would prefer a subway link to the rest of the world. Let's face it, Express buses don't run all night long, and an hour long wait for the ferry in the wee hours is a bit trying. I would like to see this proposed freight tunnel across the harbor become a subway tunnelthat would connect SI to Brooklyn. The link over the VN will never happen, because the bridge was not designed to accept the torsion of a moving train ( much like the problem with the Manhattan Bridge). I'd even be willing to settle for extending the Bayonne light rail system over that bridge for a PATH connection, but buses just won't cut it.
As Larry mentions, there have been any number of road proposals all of whih get rejected. There is currently a Major Investment Study for the SIE happening. At the first public meeting, 45 people showed up ( and one was my 3 year old daughter). Everyone wanted improvements, but they didn't want:
1 - A full-lenght service road.
2 - An HOV lane added to the median.
3 - A truck lane added to the shoulder.
4 - A new mixed-use lane.
5 - A bus lane.
6 - A counter-flow lane for rush-hour traffic.
7 - A transit-way in the median for light rail or subways.
Basic answer: fix it, but don't make any changes.
It's enough to make me want to go back to Brooklyn.
Speaking of light rail, a New Jersey Transit official was in here a few years ago for Staten Island data, with the idea of justifying the Bayonne light rail as a park and ride for Staten Island. What ever happened to that?
If it were proposed, I'm sure Staten Islanders would object. They'd also object to the freight tunnel, once it was realized that trains would be rolling through residential neighborhoods. And they would object to the subway connection. Remember, Geraldine Ferraro got here start fighting the proposed southeast Queens subway -- it would let those subway people get to your safe neighborhood.
Staten Islanders also fought a proposed public park, on the grounds that it might draw "outsiders."
It sounds like Staten Island should secede ... from the Union, not just the city. It sounds like they consider New York Harbor to be "Richmond Moat" instead, separating them from the evil "other".
Seems to vary with neighborhood. The established neighborhoods on the north end of the island have a positive view. The developing neighborhoods on the south shore are more paranoid. It's a long ride on the SIRT to the ferry to the subway to Midtown. Some time ago, a private operator proposed a ferry service direct from Great Kills Harbor to west Midtown, with bus service across. The result? NIMBY!
There were other circumstances with the Great Kills ferry. One was, they promised 20 minutes-to-Manhattan service, but because Great Kills Harbor (an artificial protected harbor created with landfill)is a no-wake-zone with a 5MPH speed limit, it took 20 minutes for the boa5t just to clear the harbor. The boat was also too large for the harbor, and the construction on the facilities was started without permits from USCG and the EPA and NY DEP. Nor was there any community input until the project was started, and the uprising occured. A factor in killing it, however, may have been the posters the anti-ferry people made, with a faded-out picture of a large auto ferry, instead of the 300 passenger hydrofoil that was proposed...
-Hank
This is getting off the subject, and I apologize in advance. This business of people fighting proposed improvements for reasons which sound silly reminds me of the time when Interior Secretary James Watt banned the Beach Boys from playing in Washington on the 4th of July a few years back because, in his words, they "attracted the wrong element", and booked Wayne Newton instead. Then , he found out his boss, Ronald Reagan, liked the Beach boys. Oops!
It's still too bad the subway tunnel under the Narrows was never built. The 4th Ave. line still has provisions for such a hookup south of 59th St.
Let us get this story straight. What actually happened was that James Watt, the Secretary of the Interior, stated one year that he wanted family entertainment on the Mall on the 4th of July because the previous year the Grass Roots had performed on the Mall a number of pro-drug use songs and the Mall site was messed up pretty bad, including a couple of arrests for violent fights. The aftermath of the previous year was that many people saying they no longer wanted to attend the fireworks on the Mall on the 4th of July anymore.
A disk jockey on WRQX 107.3 in Washington made a joke that James Watt wants to ban rock groups from the Mall, and "Who had been on the Mall 3 years before? The Beach Boys Does this mean he is against the Beach Boys???...Ha ha ha."
Mr. Watt wouldn't have even known that the Beach Boys had ever been there since he had only been in Washington a few months. The press combined Mr. Watt's statement against a drug-advocacy rock group with the Beach Boys joke (which Mr. Watt probably would have considered family entertainment) and figured out that this is an easy way to make the elected administration look foolish.
And to tie this in with Staten Island, why do so many people in the crowded four boroughs demand acceptance of the crowded city life they have chosen (which has never been withheld from them), but ridicule the Staten Islanders from choosing the quiet life that they want? Similarly, why should the majority of people in the Washington area have had to sublimate their interest in not having singers advocacy commission of crimes and a drug-use life style to the few who enjoy ridiculing them?
I may have dragged this out to a ridiculous extreme, but I could not let a misinformed description of an event be allowed to stand. Sorry...
Well, I can see that some of you have strong feelings about the subject of the S.I.-Bklyn link. My reasoning behind that was wouldn't it be nice for Staten Islanders. I can only see it helping them. I've never lived in S.I. but I'm sure that sometimes it can't feel like part of New York(maybe they don't want to). But for those of you who count yourselves among the 7,300,000+ citizens of the Big 'A', Wouldn't it be nice to have a faster way to Brooklyn and Manhattan? A tunnel under the bay is just plain ridiculous. But think of this:
Isn't the distance between mainland Queens and the Rockaways roughly the distance between S.I. and the rest of the city(i.e. Brooklyn)?
And all the talk of the unwanted "outsiders" scares me. I'm sure you'd find poeple as bad in parts of S.I. as you would in parts of Manhattan and Brooklyn. Believe it or not most people(including the "outsiders" of which some of you speak) are hard-working, decent people who would like to live in a nice neighborhood with a kempt yard, a garage and a little garden in the back, but not everyone has it. Just because someone from one of the "outside" places you fear to tread comes down Hylan Blvd. doesn't mean they want to rob your house and tag up the walls.
It's a quickly dying type of thinking known as "trust". Though you can't trust everyone out there, who will you know you can trust if you give them no chance?
I agree with you totally!
<would in parts of Manhattan and Brooklyn. Believe it or not most people(including the "outsiders" of which some
of you speak) are hard-working, decent people who would like to live in a nice neighborhood with a kempt yard,
a garage and a little garden in the back, but not everyone has it. Just because someone from one of the
"outside" places you fear to tread comes down Hylan Blvd. doesn't mean they want to rob your house and tag
up the walls. >>
I don't recall ever saying anything about 'outsiders' I have little fear of being anywhere 'crime-ridden' My grandmother used to live in Canarsie, and I got warned to 'Never transfer at Broadway-ENY, because it's dangerous.' In the lat 9 years I've been traveling all over the subway alone, I was mugged once, by a gang from my school at the time, in the Lafayette St G station. Over the last 4 years, I've traveled with my camera hung on my neck, and the only problem I ever had was when I was quizzed on my permit by a work crew supervisor. I have freinds form the allegedly 'bad' neighborhoods, and they're no more dangerous than I am.
-Hank
The Cta has a new section of their web site, what do you think of it?
It is the visitors information section. To check it out go to
http://www.transitchicago.com
and click on the vistor information icon
The new section looks good. I was fairly surprised to see that the site was updated at all. The CTA website is very good but it has never been kept truly up to date. It ***still*** shows the Purple and Green Lines as running 24 hours a day! The map is good -- it seems to be a clear scan of the printed map -- except for downtown, where they show only the rapid transit lines, no bus lines or landmarks like the rest of the map.
Hi all,
I requested book loan thru my local county library to get 3 volumes
of ERA's Tracks of NY...they can't find it anywhere :-(
I have a photocopies of Volume 1 (I assume it is Manhattan &
the Bronx Els since it is buried somewhere in the closet) from a
friend of mine.
Wondering where could I get books on Vol 2 & 3? or anyone kind
enough to make photocopies of those 2 reminding volumes?
I would like to make into shematic form and make it available to
anyone on nycsubway.org (Manhattan & Bronx Els
shematic maps are already posted on this site)
E-mail me at adler1969@aol.com
im going to ny in the summer and im looking for some timetabelles on the net... is there any here?
Can you be more specific
You can get Amtrak,JerseyDOT,NewYork's Metro North, LIRR and Subway all on the net
Go to "Transfer Station" at bottom of Sub-Talk Index page.
Once there, play with NYCity Transit related Websites
and
Rail and Transit Web Sites
All are part of www. nycsubway.org
Actually, none of the sites listed on the NYC Transit-related sites and Rail and transit web sites lists are part of www.nycsubway.org.
Subway timetables can be found on the Official New York City Transit Web Site
-Dave
Sorry Dave!
After I sent it, I realized the implications of what I said. I meant that links to the Official sites were all available through the website.
I understand the new M4 MKT-FKD cars have a railfan seat.
Probably the thing I miss the most on the ‘L’ since OPTO has been the loss of the "railfan" seat. For those unfamiliar, the railfan seat was a single seat placed sideways across from the motorperson’s cab. You had the same vantage point of the right-of-way as the motorperson, except you were on the left side of the car. It was almost like running the train. We can thank ex-General Manager George Krambles for this feature. Every new car purchased from 1950 through 1986 had this seat arrangement. For those unfamiliar, George is also a electric railfan and CERA member #1.
Yes, we really miss the "Railfan" seat on the newer Chicago CTA L cars with the full-width cabs. Also, on the lines converted to OPTO, the seat has been removed and the front area blocked off to create an essentailly "open" full-width cabs.
New York, on the other hand, never had "Railfan" seats. The best one could do in the pre-full-width cab days was to stand behind the front end door. There was never a left-side front end window.
>New York, on the other hand, never had "Railfan" seats. The best one could do in the pre-full-width cab days was to stand behind the front end door. There was never a left-side front end window. <
Never is a long time.
You ever hear of the "Bluebird". Best seat ever
All car models in Toronto since 1954, when the first line opened, have had front view windows and I am delighted to see that the brand new T-1 cars currently being delivered are no exception.
Pretty nice, isn't it?
I hate the new "furry" red seats though. I liked the old H-1, H-2 & H-4 seats that were vinyl & very padded. The other passengers aparantly think the same, because they are always sleeping on these types of trains!
True, New York subway cars that do have a seat across from the driver's cab don't have windows. You have to stand and look thru the window on the door.
But our sister rapid transit system, PATH, does have a window in front of the "rail fan's seat." PATH is a great subway, too, connecting Midtown, Hoboken, World Trade Center, Jersey City & Newark. And it's still only $1.
A great place to get off the PATH and sit in the station for a while is Harrison Station, an outdoor elevated station which straddles Amtrak's Northeast Corridor line. So, in addition to watching PATH trains go by on the outer tracks, you see Metroliners, other Amtrak trains & NJ Transit commuter trains all going by on the inner tracks.
I remember those seats on the 6000-series and later cars, too. Even so, I preferred to stand at the storm door and look through the window. Those seats faced sideways towards the cab, didn't they?
I understand the North Shore Electroliners had railfan seats as well. The next time I visit the Illinois Railway Museum, I'll have to take a closer look at their Electroliner. With any luck, maybe they'll be running it when I'm there, or at least maybe they'll be running the Green Hornet around the loop track. The last time I was there, they were running an Illinois interurban (not a C, A & E, or North Shore or South Shore) on the mainline track and CSL matchbox streetcar #1374 on the loop.
If I recall, the BMT standards had a single seat against each end bulkhead directly across from the cab; however, these seats faced toward the interior of the car and would not be considered as railfan seats.
Yes, the seat did face the motor cab, however, there was enough room between the side of the seat the front wall panel to put your legs. Not to mention the huge front window. As a die-hard 'L' fan, turning towards the side to look out the front was NOT an inconvenience.
Hey guys, I was only on a Phila. M-4 one time but I think a front seat faces out the front window for a "railfan". Can anyone confirm this
who lives in Philly? They have more M-4 cars so you can wait till one
pulls up and take you for a 'fun" ride.
patco in southern has great railfan seat right next to the motorman. they also have a open control stand.
DC has dark tinted glass in the cab door when it is closed of the operating position, but if you look hard you can see through and out into the tunnel or out side a grade sections.
Why are the operators so shy on trains that they need tinted glass
On the bus the operator sit with the rest of us, if not slightly elevated on a pedisal (as it should be).
In Baltimore, every car has a forward facing transverse seat in front of a plate glass window that gives you the right hand motorman's view of the track.
patco in southern nj has great railfan seat right next to the motorman. they also have a open control stand.
I can tell you with full assurity that the M-4's DO have the "railfan" seat. There are but three such seats per train and they are usually the first ones occupied not by railfans, but by your average Joe Schmo who knows nothing of subways and just likes the view.
But fear not! There are THREE "railfan" seats(you'll see what I mean if you ride one). Not so close to the window as the first but if the person inf ront of you doesn't have a big head you can still get a pretty good view.
Of course, there's always the front window. But, I'm sorry to say, they don't open like they do on the M-3's, so Philadelphia pays a price for having modern subway cars.
The front window doesn't open? Are there any windows that open?
Chicago learned from experience you can't possibly have the AC working in all cars, all the time. So, the 3200's (MK 1992) were ordered with a split sash window, designed with the top 1/5 portion able to open (the window is on a hinge and drops in toward the interior of the car). These windows are equipped with a KEY lock, but can be opened by the OPERATOR in event of a non-functioning A/C. When the 2200's (Budd 1969) were rebuilt in the early 1990's the same type feature was added.
I pity the "EL" riders if there are NO opening windows, because it is only a matter of time before a A/C starts to fail. This, during a sultry Philadelphia August afternoon, would have some riders wishing the M3's with their "ventilation" fans were back.
If one so desired, all that was necessary to open the front window was to press down levers on either side of the window and pull it down. Simple, no?
I used to lve doing it(still do). The experience of having the wind rushing in your face(especially the warm breeze of a summer evening) is quite unparalleled.
Well, luxury comes with a price.
Jack, I know how the "old cars" front window works. I've spent countless hours (60's & 70's) riding the line since the M3's were "brand spanking new".
My questions is does the "new M4" car have ANY windows that open? I haven't had the experience of seeing or riding the NEW cars.
Again, I'm sorry to say that none do(none that passengers have access to). I would assume they think we'll live with the AC. I guess we can. We asked for it, right?
Oh, I'm sorry. Good luck when that crack team at SEPTA's Sixty-ninth Street shops gets their hands on the cars and the A/C starts to fail. I'd hate to be riding any length of time in a crowded SEALED car!
I know that in the summer in Chicago, beware when you see a train come into the station and one car is mysteriously quite empty. That car has serious A/C problems and everyone steers clear.
That’s why I said, "a few days with a conked out A/C, and the riders will be looking for the M3’s and their dandy ventilation fan system."
The Budds had sealed windows when they were delivered, and due to some ventilation problems (even with those super-duper fans!) a couple of vent windows were added to each car. This could certainly happen with the M-4's.
However, SEPTA continues to purchase buses which have sealed windows and this time of the year the same thing occurs. On a nice day, too nice for the AC but nice enough to let the outside breeze in, it's just not possible. The passengers usually take to the roof hatches and open them in futile attempts to get some air.
Of course, the other common problem is AC failure. Sealed windows don't help at all here. SEPTA's rationale 18 years ago, when the first sealed-window RTS's were purchased, was that openable windows are misused by riders, who decide to open them especially when the AC is on (and there is much truth to that). Two other orders going out at the same time brought the AMG tracklesses (with fully-openable windows) and Kawasaki LRV's (with vent windows). You figure it out.
Only one bus has been purchased by SEPTA since then that has windows which can be opened. The next time you see a bus going down the street on a nice day and the emergency escape windows flap out when it turns, you'll know why.
Hey, gang -we won't have to worry about any of this - they are going
on strike tommorrow-7/1/98. Nothing like holding the people hostage because you can't decide on what is fair for everybody!
Wrong Date!!!
On Sunday 5/31 tomorrow is 6/1, not 7/1. The result is the same - 234 goes out and based on the last stupid 234 strike, minor caos results. After that, most people figger out how to get around without City division. When 234 comes to its collective senses and settles, passenger traffic cames back lower than before the strike. The "officers" of 234 have not figured this out yet, which is why SEPTA gets to go through this idiocy every few years.
The transit advocates have managed to get a number of articles in the newspapers lately, claiming the transit system is being overwhelmed by riders. Editorials have once again blamed the "useless transicrats."
Frankly, I don't see it. There are more people on the A and F than there were at the depths of the recession, but fewer than the late 1980s crush. That's just economic growth. In the 1980s, trains later than the 7:25 F were so packed you couldn't get on. Then you had to wait for three A's to pass before packing on a C at Jay Street. So I haven't seen an overall subway crush in Brooklyn as a result of rising ridership.
Like most Politicos, NYC's foremost transit advocates are more interested in the present than the future. They want cheap (or, if possible free) transit, more service, and more transit workers. As for the maintenence and improvement of the system, its way down their priority list. The advocates are complaining about the increased ridership resulting from the fare decrease they advocated (I advocated cutting off-peak fares only, and steeply, which would not have increased and might have decreased the rush hour crush).
Where I have noticed a crush is on the Brighton. That's because the TA can't add trains. That's because half the Manhattan Bridge has been out for 12 years, and will be out for years more. And there has always been a crush on the Lex. That's because the 2nd Avenue subway was never built. And on the Queens line. That's because the 63rd St tunnel was never connected. And bus service is slow. That's because buses get stuck at lights and there are more cars. Rising ridership is not the problem.
Long range improvements aren't the advocate's issues. The MTA is only interested in improving service to the suburbs, perhaps so those abandoning Brooklyn will have somewhere to go. They're actually studying commuter rail links to Lower Manhattan, even an MTA study concluded that Brooklyn should continue to rely on the Manhattan Bridge (which the city should pay to repair) and hope for the best. What are they going to do, turn the Montigue St. Tunnel over to the LIRR? And, they are considering a special "high amenity" subway direct from Grand Central to Downtown for Metro North riders. How will they pay for it -- taxes paid by riders of "low amenity" subways?
There are people who advocate free mass transit. They are not taken very seriously. I wouldn't call them transit advocates. Why waste your breath on them?
Also, why attack the position of transit advocates that transit riders should receive more and pay less for it. What else would transit advocates be advocating? Expensive service? Fewer trains? Fewer people to run the trains? Of course not. Every advocate seeks the same combination, "pay less get more," for its constituency. Every political body that faces limited resources and budgetary problems is constrained advocate "pay more get less." There's nothing interesting or unusual about that.
As for whether transit advocates are shortsighted b/c they, e.g., ignore long term goals, is a real question. I think it's a little more complicated than you make it out to be. I doubt that the Straphangers feel that they can influence mass transit policy to the tune of getting entire subway lines built. (I don't know, of course, as I haven't asked them). Maybe they feel that they should focus on what they perceive as short-term, smaller-scale problems, such as the things you have suggested. But that's a question that's worth talking about.
--mhg
- Free Mass Transit ... an idea with some merit.
It could solve a lot of problems, but would create a some too.
From time to time it gets brought up, I'm sure it will again.
- The excuse for ignoring long term goals is not:
- Limited resources or budgetary problems, it is
- Inability of our elected officials to create public interest in
and willingness to accept the price (taxes).
There have been some successes in other cities, but not in NYC,
a case in point is the 63rd St tunnel .... oh when is it going to be
connected to the IND and LIRR ?
I felt bad that Rudy didn't hold out longer and fight harder to the
BMT extention to LaGarida.
What about the underground extention of the BMT that died at
Jamaica.
The good news is that the "Free Transfers" and now the daily and
monthly passes (comming out July 4th) are drawing more and more
customers to the cities' system. This may pressure the MTA to
fight harder for tax dollars on these long term projects.
Mr t
"Like most Politicos, NYC's foremost transit advocates are more
interested in the present than the future. They want cheap (or, if
possible free) transit, more service, and more transit workers. As for
the maintenence and improvement of the system, its way down their
priority list."
Preservation of the existing system can often be a priority by necesity not by design. The survival mode mentality sometimes gets to be overwhelming. Deffered capital maintenance is an easy way to get operating funds but it can be like rolling a snow ball. It starts small but gets out of hand really fast if you are not careful.
Urban transit riders often do not have the same earning power or disposable income as suburban riders. Many ride transit because they have to not because they want to or it is more convienient.
"Long range improvements aren't the advocate's issues. The MTA is only
interested in improving service to the suburbs, perhaps so those
abandoning Brooklyn will have somewhere to go."
Strategic planning is long range (2nd Ave. Subway) Suburban people are often more articulate and carry more political clout. Sometimes suburban projects siphon funds from projets that may be more effective, but they feel that they help support the system so they need service.
Lots of people I know were disappointed that when the controversy over spending the MTA surplus broke out, not one voice was raised in support of system expansions -- or even major capital improvements to maintain existing service. This is no time for a siege mentality. With the economy booming and ridership up, the siege is lifted.
But what about my main question. The advocates and newspapers claim the system is horribly overcrowded. Aside from particular lines which have been overcrowded for 30 years, with improvements on the drawing board for 30 years, do you find the transit system to be horribly overcrowded? I haven't seen it.
I have not ridden in NYC for some time now. I rode the F line quite a bit for a while from Prospect Park into the City, and it was packed most of the ride at peak times, and the buses that I rode in Manhattan were allways packed, but like I said it's been a while. I do know that the Red Line in Chicago is slower and more crowded than it used to be, making it less attractive to ride.
Schedule, location and comfort are important for the system to function. Getting where you want to go when you need to get there.
Strategic planning is important but most of the time for transportation planning most of the effort is spent trying to figure out how to drive to the airport faster in your car. That does not help many of the people that ride the trains and buses daily, but they are too busy living their daily lives to have much input into the process.
On this page you have people that are interested in transit and are advocates but there are few people in the political arena that really do more than provide lip service, or provide a subsistance level of funding.
Can the highway advocates back up their claims that the freeways and streets are more congested? Once you hit gridlock it's gridlock.
"Strategic planning is long range (2nd Ave. Subway) Suburban people are often more articulate and carry more political clout. Sometimes suburban projects siphon funds from projets that may be more effective, but they feel that they help support the system so they need service."
Also, if one of the goals (either self-determined or handed down from above) of transportation planners is to reduce automobile usage, especially if the planners are being evaluated on the effectiveness of their proposals, then coaxing suburbanites onto trains with better service and more comforts gives more bang for the buck than improving service for already-carless (by choice or necessity) city dwellers.
You're right that urban advocates should focus, more than they do now, on infrastructure maintenance, additional/expanded urban lines and other long-term improvements, not cutting another dime off all fares. (Your off-peak fare reduction idea would be a much wiser quick fix for riders.)
You (and other posts) also express incredulity at talk of commuter and airport links to downtown. If you mean only that these shouldn't trump urban subway projects like 2nd Ave. and 63rd St., and that their costs shouldn't be shunted onto taxpayers who don't use them, then you're still right.
But a little perspective here: these "suburban" projects would give New York only what most other self-respecting world cities already have (IN ADDITION to comprehensive urban-core systems). The glaring lack of high-speed (or even -- heaven forbid -- "high-amenity") links between our three international airports, our Manhattan railway terminals and outlying areas is one of the first things visitors notice about New York..
These projects would (most importantly) reduce car trips both within Manhattan and around it, vital goals of modern public transportation.
They'd also offer a modicum of scheduling sanity and, yes, comfort for people making the few trips that are especially awkward on the subway, long plane trips with lots of luggage, lots of young kids, etc.
These people aren't necessarily some kind of rich, coddled, Manhattan-hating, subway-fearing weenies. They are us.
I work in Midtown and live in Jersey City by the Grove Street PATH station, so I ride the subways constantly, to and from work, late nights, whatever. (Not to mention just for fun) But every few months, if I have a 6:30 a.m. flight from Kennedy, or a rush-hour train to Boston, and I have to schlep luggage, business-trip clothes, my boss's laptop computer, yada, yada, yada, and show up looking vaguely professional ...
I'd like the option of getting where I'm going a little faster and more easily than usual, WITHOUT polluting the air and clogging the streets with yet another cab ride. And I'm more than willing to fund the train projects that get me there by paying a high fare for that trip. (Hey, I can afford it ... I save so much money by riding the subways and buses the rest of the time instead of owning a car or taking cabs).
You talk with scorn about people who "flee" the city to the suburbs, implying that they don't deserve improved service to Manhattan, and at first glance I'd tend to agree with you. Hey, I hate quiet, tree-lined streets as much as the next guy.
But consider something else: "Flight" was more the pattern during New York's hard times, when lots of people (who could afford to) paid more to escape the city and buy a lawn. Nowadays, some of the privileged few are flocking back INTO Manhattan (not by subway, of course), and paying astronomical rents. And some of the people in the middle or far suburbs are stuck there (as I was until recently) not because they're turning their backs on New York but because they can't afford to live there, what with all the swells driving up those rents.
In short, New York has a need for improvements, maintenance and upgrades in pretty much ALL its mass transit, including our beloved subway.
Maybe instead of arguing about who should get served first, we should get together and start yelling with one loud voice that New York ain't supposed to look like a giant parking lot, and that sardine-can crowding on the Lex --- whether it's been going on for 30 years or 30 days --- is something that limo-riding politicians have a duty to relieve. Maybe that might build the necessary political momentum. Now, about that 2nd Avenue subway ...
I have the following suggestion for funding various improvements. Right now, NYC pays for transit improvements in the city, while the state kicks in (using money substantially raised in the city) for MetroNorth and the LIRR.
Let's cut the Vampire State by knocking another quarter percent or so, above what is planned, off the state personal income tax. Then raise the city income tax by 1/4 percent and use the money for transit improvements in the city --- over and above the state of good repair, which the MTA should be able to fund using its own dedicated tax stream. And raise the city COMMUTER tax by 1/4 percent. Use the amount collected on Long Island to fund the LIRR connection to Grand Central, and the amount collected in the Northern Suburbs to fund Metro-North improvements (I have my own suggestions but its not my money). Connecticut commuters would both contribute and benefit. New Jersey commuters? Use their money to fund the connections Kennedy and LaGuardia, since the Port Authority is using airport profits to fund the PATH.
What would the Vampire State cut to make up for the revenue loss? I have my preference, and you might have yours, but there is plenty to cut. My political observation of the decade is don't wait to spend the money until it is there -- by then someone else would have spent it. People who create a perpetual fiscal crisis by seizing money that does not exist drive policy in this irresponsible age.
Hear, hear.
I said I'd be willing to fund high-speed airport and commuter links through high fares on those links.
Living just outside the borders of NYC and New York (in Jersey City), I'd also be quite happy to fund them with higher taxes.
I've never been one of those NJ whiners who claims it's not fair to be taxed for working in NYC when you don't live there. A city whose "population" includes millions of nonresident workers, who benefit from its services (particularly mass transit), should have a right to tax them for those services.
By the way, a further word on the PATH system, mentioned several times in these threads:
PATH should not be considered a commuter railroad in anything like the same sense that Metro North, the LIRR and NJ Transit are. It's far closer to a stepchild of the NYC subway.
Some non-commuters use it that way even within Manhattan, as an alternative [and cheaper] Sixth Avenue-and-West Village subway.
(If only PATH had been extended to north and east from 33rd St. to Grand Central and east from 9th St. to the eastern end of Washington Square Park, adding and/or retaining several more Manhattan stops along the way -- as the Hudson & Manhattan planned early this century -- it would be even more of a genuine Manhattan line.)
On the Jersey side, the very urban areas PATH serves, including the CITY of Newark, Harrison, and my own Jersey CITY (with four, count 'em, four PATH stations) aren't exactly Darien, you know. Not too many lawn tractors to be found here.
Jersey City is as much a part of the urban fringe as Williamsburg, and it's closer to Downtown than much of Uptown, which is why so many Wall Street and Midtown worker bees (like me) live here.
It would make almost as much sense to extend PATH directly to Newark airport --- thus linking that very busy airport directly to Midtown and the financial district -- as it would to extend NYC subway lines directly to LaGuardia and Kennedy terminals. (All very good ideas)
And it would make every bit as much urban-planning sense to extend PATH to other already very urban areas of Newark and Jersey City as it would to extend the NYC subway to (in some cases less urban) parts of western Brooklyn and Queens, or to parts of Staten Island. (All also fine ideas.)
Ironically, much of the NYC subway system was created to spread people away from crowded downtown areas. Whereas today, both the NYC subway and PATH are vital parts of the enlightened efforts to reduce traffic congestion, air pollution, consumption of non-renewable resources, and genuinely suburban sprawl, and to revitalize our cities ... note the plural!
You are largely correct about how PATH is basically a form of urban transit. In fact, I sometimes use PATH to get between Penn Station and my workplace on 14th Street when I'm running too late to walk - the total walking distance is the same as using the 7th or 6th Avenue subway lines, PATH is 50 cents cheaper, and (something I've come to appreciate more and more) the cars are ***much*** cleaner. And that unmistakeable-but-indescribeable aroma in the PATH stations sort of grows on you :-)
There is one factor that does make PATH resemble a suburban line. Hoboken trains serve a large number of New Jersey Transit rail commuters whose trains terminate in that city. There are fewer of these commuters now that Midtown Direct is up and running, but PATH still remains a vital transportation link in that respect.
Darn, I knew somebody would mention Hoboken Terminal :-)
It's true, many residents of the far NJ suburbs think of and use PATH as just the last-leg NJ Transit connecting service, then take the "real" NYC subway to work elsewhere in Manhattan. Very suburban of them. (Not that there's anything wrong with that.)
By contrast, LIRR and Metro North commuters disembark from their suburban lines at Penn and Grand Central, then often go directly to the urban NYC subway and take it to work elsewhere in Manhattan -- cutting out the PATH middleman.
Then again, some NJ Transit commuters use the PATH that way, too. They disembark at Hoboken from their suburban trains and take the ... um, "urban" PATH directly to work at various Manhattan locations -- without ever changing again to the NYC subway or buses. (I used to do this when I lived in western Jersey.)
It just happens that, unlike eastern or northern commuters to NYC, western suburbanites have their suburban surface railroad terminal just across the river from Manhattan, instead of in it.
That's really not so different than if, say, the LIRR terminated somewhere in eastern Queens instead of Manhattan, and everybody then continued west to work in Manhattan via the B,Q,E,F,7, or whatever.
That wouldn't make the B,Q,E,F and 7 suburban commuter trains, now, would it?
Well, WOULD IT? HUH? HUH?!?!?!
Not that I'm defensive about this or anything ;-)
OK, OK, I'm getting silly now, so I'll close with a silly question:
What the heck IS that distinctive PATH smell, anyway???? What causes it? If anybody knows, I'd love to know. I smell it in my sleep.
I think the smell is motor oil. Smells like hot motor oil. You can
smell it on communter train terminals (Grand Central, Penn).
It's either that or maybe it's just dirt on the 3nd rail.
There's also a distinctive smell in the Port Authority Bus Terminal that drives me crazy. It's smells like an essence of bus fumes mixed in with a popcorn-and-butter aroma.
Don't forget - it's not only Hoboken. There are also many Garden State suburbanites who take PATH from Newark to Lower Manhattan after disembarking from NJ Transit Trains and buses.
Also, taking LIRR to Flatbush Ave. terminal and then NYC Transit subways to Lower Manhattan is akin to the NJ Transit/PATH routing. Both involve taking a commuter rail to a terminal outside Manhattan, then a rapid transit train into Lower Manhattan. Many years ago, when I worked at the World Trade Center, I used the LIRR/IRT routing, while many of my fellow workers used PATH and NJT.
By the way, in those days I worked for Tri-State Regional Planning Commission. Any old Tri-Staters out there in cyberspace? Would be good to hear from any of you.
Actually, many LI commuters take trains that terminate at the far western end of LI, i.e. Atlantic and Flatbush Avenues in Brooklyn. They then take the NYC Subway to Wall Street or other places to get to work. Not too different from taking a NJ train to Hoboken and taking the local subway line (PATH) under the river.
Actually, the PATH seems more efficient than the Direct connection to Penn Station because, instead of all those large trains all going under the river with about 70 people to a car and sharing tracks with long distance trains, everyone gets off and merges into a larger capacity (with more fuel effiecieny) line going more places on its own private right of way under the river. It's a neat little system the only thing to ever improve it would be an (almost impossible to implement) extension to 57 St.
Some time back I posted a map of my proposed extensions of the PATH system. Not that I ever expect them to be done, it was just something fun to put together. Here it is again:
I propose first: 4-tracking the JSQ-WTC line in order to eliminate train merges in the Wye between Grove-Pavonia-Exchange Pl. Then the Kennedy Blvd. line and Elizabeth line could be added on with ample train capacity to WTC.
-Dave
Cool expansion ideas! While we're at it, how about building once-planned the Astor Place extension - but a little farther, in order to run PATH up Second Avenue? Yep, it's wishful thinking, but somehow I suspect that is anyone gets a Second Avenue line built, it'll be the Port Authority rather than the MTA .
Interesting ideas,sir. PATH is urban mass transit burteaucratic hoohah notwithstanding and pretty good too. My own wish for extension is accross ninth to Astor, then swing under 1st ave stop @ 14th st, then Bellevue then UN Plaza. Tap large underserved trip generators "Oh those weekend kids from Jersey in the East Village!"
Very good ideas. They'd solve some of the most pressing URBAN mass transit needs on the Jersey side.
The Newark Airport connection and Hoboken-Weehawken extension are already proven trip generators, as numerous car service drivers and Anthony Imperiale know very well.
I agree with other responders, though, that it would all work even better with the long-proposed extensions to Grand Central/north Midtown and ignored East Village areas.
Add those, and the uptown Hoboken stop in particular would be mobbed day and night with both yuppies and East Village night crawlers from Jersey. Lots of untapped revenue there.
Two more arguments, one pro, one con, about deeming PATH a truly urban transit system:
PRO: History. In the days when 34th St. was still basically the country, New York City's "urban" area already included Jersey City, with its strong links to Old New York via the Paulus Hook ferry, as well as western Brooklyn, with its own ferry service. Today, Brooklyn is still a crossroads of the NYC subway as its main trunk lines head east out of downtown Manhattan, while Jersey City, home of four PATH stations, is the big nexus for westbound service leaving Manhattan.
CON (sort of): Frequency of service. Yes, PATH runs about every five seconds at rush hour. It also runs all night, every night ... something that is not universal even among the subway systems of some major world cities. But I must admit, at midnight, after seeing a band in the Village, when I have to wait half an hour for a PATH train home to Jersey City, I suddenly feel very suburban.
PATH may be thought by riders as urban transit but since it was once conencted to the current NE Corridor tracks by a switch (now removed which was East of Harrison {closer to NYC]) and at one time owned and run by the Pennsy RR, they are bound by FRA regulations which call for more stringent maintenance schedules and tolerances than the urban transit like the BYC subway. It has been stated earlier in subtalk posts that the SIRT is also bound to FRA regs and has things like compressors in every car, external hand holds, etc. The next time you ride PATH look at the cars and you'll see things not required for the subway. PATH has treid to get out of these regs in favor of less stringent regs for urban systems like the subway and were turned down.
Most people have this misconception of buses. They think buses are a slow engine moving big piece of metal with many seats. I rode an express bus from the far end of Queens to Wall St in Mnhtn after a visit. We boarded a new Queens Surface Orion bus. I didn't want to commute into the city using a bus because of the misconception. Once we got on the LIE(Long Island Expwy)it was a whole new different thing. I've never seen or been a bus that did speeds an excess of 60 mph. I know coach buses do this but not inner city buses. The bus was passing cars and some other express buses that use the LIE. After passing the BQE, the DOT(Dept Of Transportation) has set up a lane in the East bound side which the buses use to bypass commuter traffic on the LIE. However the bus driver had slowed down just a tiny bit to merge into the lane. All I felt was my body smacking the frame and window of the bus as he made the switch. The commute was a fast one. It took us just a little over an hour to get to Wall St.
Of course ANY car (except maybe some European economy city cars) could easily outrun a bus, but buses have gotten much faster in the last few years. First most buses (Both Intercity and Transit) use Detroit Diesel engines (although a few agencies/companies specify Cummins engines) and in the early 1990's the Detroit Diesel gave their engines an electronic fuel injection system, which made the buses a bit quicker. The Detroit Diesel introduced a news series of engines, The Series 60 - 6 cylinder for intercity coaches and the Series 50 - 4 cylinder engine for transit buses. All new buses for NYCT and the private compaines since early 1994 are equipped with the Series 50 engines and they are incredibly fast and quick off the line too. I'm sure some of SubTalkers that drive buses would agree.
Cummins has also re-worked their old 6 cylinder engine. It used to be the L10, and now it's called the M11, but I don't think it's quite as impressive as the Detroit Diesel engines. NJ Transit now gets Cummins engines for their new buses.
The depot I work out of now (Manhattanville) has quite a few 8700 - 9000. I dont know much about engine numbers and such but I know by the sound the engine makes. The 8600's and after make a low grumbling type of noise while everything earlier just sound like a regular engine. These buses are much faster and dont take as much effort getting up to speed. The other day I worked to 60's to Laguardia and I noticed the 9017 I had only went up to about 46 miles per hour. I remember working the 60's out of Mother Hale with the low 8000's and they went up to 55 before the governer kicked on. Ironic as it may seem the rebuilt 7500 have the older type of engine in them. Also I work the 103's on Lexington and at 101st is a very steep hill. The newer equipment take this hill easy at half throttle, but anything older just make it with full throttle on at about 4 miles perhour.
I'm quite familiar with the steep hill on Lex, and one interesting thing is how MCI Classics seem to just run right up that hill also. Classics have the same engine as the older RTS, but they seem to be much faster. I think I may know why. First, the gearing seems to be much more spaced, which may be due to the fact that they don't stop as often and don't need brake retarders. Second, the Classics are basically an updated GM Fishbowl which I believe is much lighter than a RTS. I don't have any facts to back it up, but I once heard that an RTS weighed as much as an Eagle coach.
Funny you should mention the Cummins L10 and M11. These
engines are equipped to 12 meter double deckers in Hong Kong.
They are coupled to ZF or Voith gearboxes. I am going over
there tomorrow to try it.
I often wondered if Voith Transmissions could be used with DD engines or if Allison Transmissions could be used with Cummins engines.
I was wondering if anyone knew what year the R11's were retired. I know I rode them sometime last in the early to mid eighties, so I figure somewhere around there. I always remember this car for its double-circle windows on the doors.-Nick
A caption on a 1995 NYC Subway's Calendar mentions 1981 as the retirement date
The R-11's were retired from 1984-1986 when the R-62/62A's came into service.
The R-11s were actually retired in 1976, after having been rebuilt in the mid-1960s and assigned model designation R-34. There were 10 cars, which were built in 1949 and known as the "million dollar train" because that's about how much the trainset cost. They spent their last days on the Franklin Avenue Shuttle (not as a solid ten-car set, of course); only one car is known to survive, and it's in the Transit Museum.
The original poster may have been referring to R-15, R-16, or R-17 cars, all of which were built with circular storm door windows. The R-15s and R-17s were replaced by R-62/R-62A cars, while the R-16s were replaced by R-68s, all in the 1983-87 period.
The R-15s had two circular windows on each door, in addition to porthole windows on the storm doors. I also remember seeing a handful of R-10s with twin circular door windows.
R-11 #8013 survives at the Transit Museum. The R-11s were designed specifically for the 2nd Ave. line. They were the first stainless steel cars built for New York's subway system. Initially, they ran on the Brighton line as a solid train; in the late 60s, they were used on the West End line, and ended their careers on the Franklin Ave. Shuttle. Interestingly enough, they kept their original bulkhead route and destination signs even after being rebuilt under contract R-34. Photos in New York Subway Cars show the R-11s on the West End in 1968 with a numeral 3/West End designation in the route slot, and 57th St.-Manhattan via Bridge in the destination slot.
The R-11s also featured what was called a "precipitron". It consisted of two ultraviolet lights in each car, one next to each bulkhead. The idea was to sterilize the air inside each car so that passengers wouldn't get sick. Remember, this was in an era before the Salk vaccine came into being, and polio was still a dreaded disease. The ultraviolet lights were removed when it was discovered they emitted harmful levels of radiation. One Transit Museum member quipped that the precipitron was not only sterilizing the air, but the conductor as well!
I have also heard that the R-11s had braking problems. (is it true they didn't have air brakes?) It was not uncommon for those cars to overshoot stations. For this reason, they were reluctant to run them in solid trains. One car (#8011, I believe) was reworked so it could m. u. with the R-16s after car 6499 was destroyed in an accident.
The R-11s were originally equipped with Drum brakes. In 1964, during their overhaul, the drum brakes were replaced by disc brakes. Unfortunately, you can't get to see the trucks at the transit museum.
You are thinking of the R12-14s. R11s were BMT cars. They were probably taken out of service in the late 60s.
I think that you might want to reconsider your posting. The R-11s were BMT cars. The R-62s and 62As are IRT. Therefore, the R-62s and
R-62As would have no bearing on the R-11s.
I could find no documentation as to the retirement date of R-11s. In 1964-65 they were re-built as R-34s. To the best of my memory, the R-11s lasted into the early 80s. In their final days, the Franklin Shuttle ran 3-car trains of one R-11 with a pair of 32s.
I believe Gene Sansone's book states 1980 as the year the R-34's (formerly R-11's) were retired.
I recall the R11s (after the R34 rebuilds) running on the Franklin Shuttle in the late '60s, either as solid trains or mixed with R32s.
The R11s were not unique in the double-circle windows in the doors, the R15s (IRT) also had these.
Another thing I remember about the R11s was that there was an experiment to air condition them. I don't recall if this was part of the R34 rebuild, or prior to that, or if the air conditioning actually worked when they ran on the Franklin Shuttle in the late '60s.
The percipitrons were removed during the overhaul.
According to the Musuem, the precipitrons were removed after it was found that they not only sterlized germs but also people! (or is that more subway legend).
It would depend on the level of radiation produced inside of the train. We're surrounded by all sorts of radiation all day, every day. Between microwave ovens, cellular phones, high-tension wires, x-ray examinations, and of course the sun. None of it is very harmful in normal doses. Now if you detonate a nuclear bomb in your living room, don't plan on having kids anytime soon.
Or don't plan on doing anything. The survivors (if any in a 45 mile radius) will comment on the foolishness.
Are all the redbirds gonna be replaced or will they keep some of them in revenue service.
The majority, if not all redbirds will be replaced as the R142's are delivered. However, this will be over a period of time. The first of them will arrive in April of '99 (If we are lucky), but they will be delivered throughout the rest of the year, and some may not even be delivered till 2000. As the r142's come in car by car, each redbird will be replaced.-Nick
I'm sorry to say the answer is yes. The last of the redbirds will be gone before too long. I know how you feel. I'll miss the M-3's for smoe strange reason.
There will be 1080 R-142's for the IRT and with an order like that(beating the record for the greatest number of subway cars ever purchased-a record NYC set with the R-44(or was it R-46)), keeping older equipment doesn't make too much sense. the R-62's will still stick around, though. I'll remember my last redbird trip. From Penn Station to 72nd Street on the B-way/7th IRT.
I shed a bitter tear.
On the #2 line, why does the R-110A train seem slower then the redbirds and R-62s. Is this due to some new safety feature or something?
The R-110 is not slower than the standard IRT car. The impression comes from the accelleration curve characteristics of the Red Birds. In the 80s, the redbirds were retrofitted with 115 horsepower traction motors. The extremely high torque made the cars seem to jump. By contrast, the micro-processor controlled accelleration of the R-110A is much smoother thus giving the illusion of less speed.
I noticed that the New York City buses has a very slow speed when they
start up. Is this due to a slow throttle response or is it due to a
low power engine? Do they have governor speed control or can they
reach top speed? The speedometer goes up to 80.
I can't say too much on this topic because I'm not a bus operator nor do I work for NYCTA. In my observation over the years, my guess is that there is some type of throttle delay on TA buses and I know that many of them won't go much over 50-55 MPH... I'm pretty sure they have engine governors on them. The early RTS (1201-1296, 1318-1659, 2201-2279, 2301-2579 & 3301-3325 had an older engine that wasn't very powerful. All TA buses since 1994 have very powerful engines. Even without the governor I don't think an RTS (or any city bus) would ever reach 80 MPH. Once I was passing through Delaware on I-95 and I paced a Flxible Metro doing 71 MPH. I know that many over-the-road coaches will come close to 80 (some may actually reach 80 MPH).
I believe the latest round of RTS buses have Detroit Diesel Series 50 4-cylinder engines. Does anyone know how much power & torque they produce?
I do not know the specs. But what I do know is that the newer NYCTC buses have a better startup acceleration than past models. I usually ride the M6, M5, and M2 buses in the city. I recently rode a brand new M6 which had a different interior. For one the seats were carpeted and the color scheme was a bit different inside. If you hop on one of these guys, you will feel the difference as the bus accelerates better from previous models.
-Garfield
As I mentioned in a previous thread when I worked the M60's out of Mother Hale in 95/96, the newest buses there were the early 8000's and they went tops 55. Even on a downhill approach the brakes automatically applied and kept the bus at 55. The other day while doing some OT I was on the 60's with 9017 and the top speed it reached was 46 even on the downhill.
A retired bus operator told me he use to do charters with RTS's at Jamaica bus lines and they went about 70/ Also a triboro coach operator told me he once went 70 on the BQE with a brand new RTS. So I guess it depends on what bus company it is and how they set the governers.
The Series 50 Detroit puts out somewhere between 280 and 320 HP in most transit applications. It's an electronic engine so you change the horsepower and torque curve by replacing a computer chip in the engine controller.
Top acceleration is affected by horsepower and by the axle ratio.
Two buses with the same size engine but different axle ratios will perform differently. The bus set up for suburban service with a top speed of 70 MPH will be slow starting and accelrating. The bus with a top speed of 45 or 50 will be accelerate at a faster rate.
The maximun governed speed of the engine is more a factor of engine performance than speed control and for buses is usually in the 2,150 to 2,400 RPM range. If the engine is allowed to over speed past the normal settings engine life may be reduced and if extreme may self destruct. The governed speed, combined with a specific axle ratio determines the top speed.
The new looks had about a 180 HP engine but weighed about 21 to 24,000 lbs. With a top speed of 45 to 52 they were performed very well in the city, stopping and starting at every block.
The RTS is about 34,000 LBS and to get decent performance and run the AC the HP is between 255 and 320 HP. A 6V92 Turbo rated at 277 runs quite well. The turbocharged engines start a bit slower for the first few feet though until the turbo boost kicks. You can feel the rate of acceleration pick up when they do.
I was on the (m10?) and transfered to the M23...got those new 95xx series buses both times....I could never get used to that electronic bell....
-Hank
We have some where the electronic bell rings three times every 10 seconds from the time it's pulled till the door is opened.
Let's not forget 'Bitchin' Betty'
Please do not stand in stepwell whil bus is in motion!
I thought they were all deactivated, but I got one on the x1 home on Monday night...
-Hank
I am eager to know about the information of the suppliers of the Subway in Newyork.
PLease mail me.
Thank you!
Do you mean the suppliers of rolling stock?
In a nutshell, the original builders of equipment currently in service were:
American Car & Foundry: R-26, R-28 (Redbirds)
St. Louis Car Company: R-29, R-33, R-36 (Redbirds); R-38, R-40, R-42, R-44
Budd: R-32
Pullman: R-46
Kawasaki: R-62
Bombardier: R-68
I don't know about the R-110-A or R-110-B units. It's possible that not all R-62s were built by Kawasaki, and that not all R-68s were built by Bombardier. Except for Kawasaki and Bombardier, all of the other car builders have since gone out of business.
I think it's like this:
R-62 -- Kawasaki
R-62A -- Bombardier
R-68 -- Westinghouse/Amerail
R-68A -- Kawasaki
Am I right, folks?
Also, I don't think ALL of the other car builders are out of business. I think some of them are still around, though they may not manufacture subway cars any more.
Bombardier has the rights to Pullman and St. Louis intercity rail cars, I do not know what other pattents they hold but they aquirred the rights to most north american equipment that had been built.
Aren't Amerail and Morrison/Knudson related or had a past affiliation?
I think one of the entities are building the METRA cars at the old Pullman facility on the south side of Chicago.
Who is building the new SEPTA cars and who built the Baltimore Cars??
The Baltimore cars were built by ABB Traction, with components from Europe and the US (Buy American).They've been very good, and the MTA is very happy. The M-4's are being built (along with our 18 additional LRV's) by ADtranz, a reorginization of ABB traction (for the worse,not the better). The orders are late, have numerous teething problems, and done nothing to bolster the reputation of the company, which is rapidly becoming the laughingstock of the electric railway industry. SEPTA got a $23M signal system for the subway surface from ADtraz for the lateness of the M-4's, I can't wait to see waht the Maryland MTA may be able to extract from them.
Adtranz was formed Jan, 1996 with the union of three corporations:
ABB of Zurich, Switzerland, Daimler-Benz AG of Stutgart, Germany and Westinghouse Transportation group of Pittsburgh. I do not think that there is any relationshio with ABB Traction of Elmira, NY but one never can be sure.
Unfortunately, the quality that ABB had seems to have vanished from ADtranz. The M-4 order is way behind schedule, the first cars were overweight and oversize, and, as stated previously, SEPTA has gotten a (FREE) $23M signal system for the subway-surface, which is still coping with a 1955-era system that cannot handle a rush-hour (or, as Philly calls it, load-line) headway that approaches 30 seconds between cars.
The Maryland MTA ordered 18 additional cars for the Hunt Valley - Penn Station - BWI extensions. MTA was so happy with the original ABB cars that the contract had been amended with a rider in 1992 to expedite the car order. ADtranz has not met one of the contract specs, the cars are (thankfully) the proper size and weight, but the five cars on the property have an irritating vibration that appears above 35 MPH. AAI Corp. of Cockeysville, an old-line defense contractor that is slowly getting into the transit equipment field was the sub-contractor that built the trucks for the first 35 cars and frabricated the body shells and the trucks for the second 18. AAI had to re-design the cab structure because the orginal Finnish bodies developed flaws in the cab area. Adtranz, AAI and MTA are now going round and round tossing blame for the vibration back and forth. MTA's shop people managed to get the vibration on one car, 5040, lessened enough to not be percieved as threatening and put it in service for Opening Day (Orioles). It hasen't been seen since. The MTA adjusted the Light Rail scedules enough to free up a few cars for three-car trains.
ADtranz has a contract from MTA for several ALP-44 electric locomotive s (motor in PRR/ATK terminology). We'll see if that order is the right size, weight, power, and is delivered and acepted on time.
The odds are not good.
A correction: The ALP-44 on order are from GE-Alsthom, not ADtranz. Sorry for the error. I stand corrected.
The LIRR has set up a web page about service changes connected with the Main Line rehabilitation program . They seem to have put a lot of thought into this, and options are explained nicely. For us railfans, it provides increased opportunities to ride the interesting Long Island City branch... which I highly recommend! For a part of the ride, you'll think you're out in the countryside.
I wonder how much all this costs? I've heard a (mind boggling) figure of $800 million just to rehab the LIRR Rockaway Branch from the junction with the A to WhitePot Junction.
None of us will ever live to see that line returned to service!
For anyone who did not see the 'track laying monster' used by the LIRR last year, do not miss it this year. It's truely an amazing piece of machinery.
I just finished Marian Swerdlow's book, UNDERGROUND WOMAN, and thought it was a pretty good read, though it did contain a few minor technical errors. I was wondering if anyone out there (conductors or operators in particular) has read the book, and what y'all might have to say about it, if anything.
If you don't know the book, it is based on the author's own experiences as a NYCTA conductor for four years.
Just want to take a few minutes to say thanks for providing Subtalk for us subway-El rail nuts that love to exchange idea's and info. I'm relatively new to the site, however, I enjoy "the system" immensely.
I sign on several times a day to catch "what's going on". If there are time when the system "times out", so be it. You and the folks at NY Subway Organization are doing a great job.
No complaints from this user.
Ditto from Me Dave.
My posts were not complaints...I was only trying to alert you to a problem.
Marty....
I am familiar with the Pittsburgh Bicentennial PCC that was painted in three vertical areas of Red, White and Blue with a row of White and Blue Stars in the letterboard area and a white “The Spirit of 1776”
inscription on the rear Blue body area. There is a photo of this car accessible through the Bicentennial page of this website.
I recently came across a photo of another Pittsburgh Bicentennial PCC. This car was divided into 4 horizontal areas:
a Blue roof (down through the letterboard area that contained a row of White Stars),
a Red Window area,
a White Body area. with a US Flag on each side of a Bicentennial Star, and an inscription in the rear,
and an Anticlimber-Wheel Skirt area, again in Blue.
The car angle in the photo was such that I could not read the inscription or determine if the 2 US Flags varied within their Unions.
WAS THIS A LATER (or earlier) PAINT SCHEME?
WAS IT A DIFFERENT CAR?
IS THERE A STORY BEHIND THE TWO DIFFERENT SCHEMES?
Thanks from me, too. I get a kick out of reading this and am amazed what you guys know about NYC subway system. Only a few lowly systems in Phila. but the M-4's are fun to ride because they are new and
modern.
Kudos to Dave Pirmann for the nyc subway org and subtalk. As everyone knows, computers must be taken down to update and maintain. I know this cause i work for a large org. that deals with computers, and we must bring the computers down to maintain. So Dave keep up the excellent work and do not let the folks who complain about subtalk being down for a while bother you.
Charlie Muller.
I agree. It's good to know there's a place on the 'net with people who share the same interest as me and can hold an intelligent discussion.
Nice to know our numbers are growing too. Welcome newcomers!
Add my sincere thanks to Dave for this excellent example of a well-run service. As an ex-New Yawker way out West, with designs on building a nostalgic subway model, this is an invaluable resource. Keep up the great work!
Jeff Trevas
There's something I've noticed on several occasions while riding at the front windows of subway trains. The train will stop at a red signal in the tunnel or on the elevated structure, and almost immediately the conductor will announce that we're at a red signal and the train will be moving shortly. I'll refrain from comment on the "moving shortly" part :-) But how would a conductor know that a red signal is the reason for the stop? The signal obviously wouldn't be visible from the conductor's booth, and in none of these instances have I heard the train operator notify the conductor before the announcement. Do conductors assume that a red signal is the cause of any non-emergency stop outside a station?
Sometimes the announcement comes from the motorman, who also has access to the PA. But often, it happens in "predictable" places, such as 50th Street on the (E) train (heading downtown), while waiting for a (C) to pass by on the upper level. When I'm in a rush to get to Penna. Station, I call this home signal "Stop and Stay and PRAY!"
When you’ve made two or three trips a day over the same route, even for only a few months, you begin to "know the road". As with any job, after qualification, the learning begins and before long, you’re intimately familiar with physical characteristics of the route you work. Working on the "extra board" allows those in train service to build on that experience and be familiar system-wide.
Each route has locations along it where you can expect to encounter problems or delays. These locations are usually at interlocking plants or approaches to interlocking plants. On many lines, the State Street Subway in Chicago for example, nearing downtown usually means a slowdown, especially during the rush hours. This is because in the downtown area boarding/alighting is heavier, and therefore takes longer. As a conductor, even though enclosed cab in the middle of the train, you tend to "know where you are" and what is "going on". If you don’t, you shouldn’t be working the job.
However, New York is going to be the "last hold-out" for conductors on rapid transit systems. Chicago has converted to OPTO, Philadelphia will become OPTO when the MKT-FKD is fully equipped with M4’s, I’m not sure about the status of Boston, but, the other systems are "new" systems and are all OPTO. Therefore, the announcements are made by the operator, who knows what is actually going on.
By the way, most subway riders don't really know the workings of the system, so, no matter what you tell them they don't know the difference.
I think that the simplest answer is, what else would be stopping the train? Something on the tracks is possible, and perhaps the engineer is injured, but chances are a red signal. It's a pretty safe bet.
--mhg
It's also the least alarming of the three to announce to the passengers. Until the conductor knows what is happening, better not to add fear or even panic on top of delay.
Conductors have a two way radio to the train operator. I usually ride in the conductor"s cars and have often heard the two crew people talking on the radio- especially for "quicker" or "longer" unplanned stops. I've also heard the train operator tell the conductor that it is a red signal on the radio and then the conductor would announce on the PA. (I'm not dreaming-I've seen mixed gender crews and the first voice was the other gender.)
I have a question about the gender makeup of rail crews: here in Chicago, women form a fair proportion of rapid transit (CTA) motormen (motorpersons?) and conductors (to the extent conductors still exist), but on the Metra commuter system, I doubt I've seen more than two female crewmembers in my entire life, and I am **not** exaggerating.
Is this just a Chicago thing, or what?
I ride the NYC subways at least 6 days a week. I have seen many women conductors and train operatora. I have yet to see a woman track worker or signal maintainer (but I am not saying there are none.) I have seen trains where both crew members are women.
On the LIRR, there seem to be quite a few female conductors, but very few female engineers.
Boston has many female conductors, both on rapid transit and on the commuter rail (actually run by Amtrak). I have only seen one female commuter rail engineer, however. Female subway operators are common.
Here in Chicago, I would say that about 40% of the OPERATORS are female. It is funny, but the percentage varies greatly depending on the line. It seems the most are working out of Howard Street, so the Red and Purple Lines have quite a few female operators. However, the Blue, Brown, Green and Orange, although having female operators, is mainly operated by "motormen".
There seems to more female operators out on the line on the weekends. I’m not sure if this is due to the fact they are "part-timers" or that they are recently hired and therefore are "forced" to work weekend work.
Barring all the scientific reasons, they can look out the window...
How about this question on what conductors know if they can't see the tracks ahead of them.
A driver is stopped in a station and still has a red signal when he/she wants to pull out. How does the conductor know NOT to close the doors?
When a train is delayed leaving a station, the doors stay open. That way new riders can get on till the light turns green and folks on this delayed train might switch to a local or express across the platform if it looks like that other train will leave the station first.
I have heard a buzzer noise when the driver wants the conductor to close the doors, because the signal has turned green. But I don't know why the conductor didn't close the doors in the first place.
If the station doesn't have holding lights, then the motorman will give the conductor one long buzz, or will communicate with him via the cab intercom or the radios some teams have.
At 47th-50th st Rockefeller Center at the uptown and downtown center tracks, when the conductor looks out of his/her window, and looks toward the front of the train, they can see the signals also. If you look out the doors at the above station at the middle tracks you can also see the signals. Also they have holding lights at 47th-50th st Rockefeller Center station.
Charlie Muller
Bitte, Sprechen Sie Geschichte!
Ich gross Fanatiker Wiener Linien.
Die Strassenbahn ist Wunderbar, die U-6 Bahn auch!
This is pushing my Deutche to the limit.
Please correspond with us again!
Just bringing up some points,
I was talking to my son about subway cabs last night and we had a little argument(I know, but listen) about the B-IV's. I say they are not full width(and I'm right) because of this:
The cab's door can serve either to block of the driver's cab and give access to the left side of the cab to regular passengers or can close and block off the left and right side making a "full width cab", but that positioning is not permanent. Please can someone out there help tell Mr. Man that he is incorrect.
Next item, commuter subways. Because of them, we have no Roosevelt Blvd. subway in Philly. Is the one for Metro North under Fifth Ave. or the Park?
I bring this up because if you walk across the JFK Blvd. Bridge, the portal of the commuter subway starts and is a long ROW and then over a couple of bridges over city streets and the Schuykill before hitting 30th St. There is no fence along this strecth and the barrier on the sidewalk separating the sidewalk from a barren grove along the tracks is about a foot and a half high. Do you call this a recipe for trouble?
Washington DC's cabs are that way but I am not sure about others.
It is unclear what you are saying. In (maybe an answer) to your question: The Metro-North (formery New York Central) Railroad runs in a tunnel under Park Avenue in Manhattan, not under 5th Avenue and not under the (Central??) Park.
I have never thought that it is easy to climb from JFK Blvd. onto the SEPTA commuter line tracks. And I have no sympathy for anyone who gets hurt climbing a wall and crossing a field to walk on posted tracks on which trains run every 5 minutes.
What is a B-IV cab? In Washington and Baltimore, the cab doors swing back in such a way that the end door is always available and the left reverse-facing seats are always available when the car end is not the front for the driver. When it is the front, the door swings so that the driver has access from one side to the other for OPTO. In Montreal and Boston, I think this is not true.
In Philadelphia, if the Broad Street Subway has a full front cab, just look at a car in the middle and see if you can walk from car to car. Then you know the door swings around to allow access to half the "cab" area.
It's a little strange. There is a single door that serves two purposes.
A:It cuts off the operator's cab from the rest of the "cab" and car, leaving an extra two seats availible for regular passengers to use. From these seats you can get the feel of being the conductor, but that's only for middle cars with them. That can never happen with the front car. In this instance you can pass from that car to the next.
B:It serves to cut off the entire front of the car from the regular passengers, giving the conductor a "full-width cab", but as I said, it isn't a permanent setup. With this only the conductor can travel between cars if he/she needs to.
So in essense, a B-IV(the technical designation for BSS cars) can have either a full cab or a traverse, depending on what the conductor feels like.
A strange schizo train.
One error, Carl. In Baltimore the end doors are ALWAYS kept locked. The only way to go from car to car (if you don't have keys) is to sprint from one to another while at a station. At train ends, the outside locking handles are in the locked position, so even with keys, no exit is possible for MTA staff or Police. The Number 1 door is key switch passable and a strap step is avalable for car exit or entry.
Any car that has the ability to restrict access to either the front seat or front door window is considered to be a full-width cab, as far as I’m concerned.
CTA’s M-K 3200’s have what is referred to as "full width" cabs, however, the hinged doors are used to close off the "cab" portion when this area is not used by the operator - i. e. not the front or rear of the train. On the Ravenswood Brown Line, during the rush hour, some OPERATORS will close their cab door and permit access to the front seat and front door window, after making the Fullerton stop southbound. I still consider this a full-width cab car, as it was designed and built for the purpose of one person train operation.
I'm trying to recall something from 40+ years back. ...
I seem to recall once riding in the front car of an IRT west-side local train, probably in the old Hi-Vs (though they may have been Lo-Vs) where the whole front vestibule area was closed off into essentially a full width cab.
Anyone else recall trains set up in that way on the old IRT cars?
While I never rode the Hi-Vs or Lo-Vs, I have read that the vestibule doors on the ends of a train weren't used. On top of that, at one time it was permissible to operate such a train with the front storm door open. There are photos of passengers standing by the storm door (closed) looking out the window in Gotham Turnstiles.
If there were doors in the bulkheads between the vestibules and car interior, similar to what can be found on the R-44s, R-46s, and R-68s, then it would have been possible to close off the vestibule.
Perhaps Mr. Todd Glickman can verify if 3352 has such doors in its bulkheads. Speaking of 3352, there is a photo of it in Interborough Cars as it was being readied for transport to its new home at Seashore after its retirement. It is indeed the lone surviving Gibbs Hi-V.
Interesting question Ed. I remember the same thing from the same (perhaps 5-10 years earlier)time span. I picked up a copy of the "Evolution of New York City Subways" on a visit to NYC this weekend., however, and in the discussion about 1902/11 MUDC Cars; Hi&Lo V(pg21) is the comment...."With this design, the motorman looked through two sets of windows. With this construction it was possible, although not permitted, for a passenger to walk in front of the motorman's view of the right-of-way"
I know I stood in this vestibule once on the 3rd Ave El. I remember paying as much attention to what was happening behind me to my right, as I was to what was happening in front of me. What I can't remember is whether or not we boarded in front of the motorman or walked through from an entrance further back. I don't recall being chased. I don't think I ventured onto the IRT by myself until High School (The Lex to 125th for Randell Island Football Games), so I suspect I was being a perfect little gentleman with my father standing behind.
Many open-platform el cars were rebuilt into closed platform vehicles with MUDC sliding doors in what were now the end vestibules. On such cars, the motorman's cab was not relocated and, consequently, the motorman did indeed have to look through two sets of glass. When the BMT rebuilt the Q cars, the motorman's controls were relocated to the enclosed end platform. The sliding doors were cut into the sides of the cars, as was the case with the C units.
The Q units served the 3rd Ave. el from 1949 until the Manhattan portion of the el closed in 1955. They ran only during rush hours on the express track in the peak direction, and had to deadhead in the opposite direction.
On the Hi-Vs and Lo-Vs, as well as the Composites, the motorman's controls were located in the vestibules, so the motorman only had to contend with one window.
The JFK Blvd. bridge Jack describes also has an area where if one crosses the metal barrier(not too high) and stands on a stone one nearby they can touch the overhead catenary!
I saw here that Septa will become fully OPTO when the M-4's are all here(that includes the BSS, right?). So are those Septa guys that always walk between cars the reason the M-3 cars are TPTO?
I read that a train can key by a red light with the trip in the upright position by just passing it at a very slow speed.(Therefor the trip goes down when the train passes over it?). But I read that all the trip arms on the train are active... so what prevents the trip from coming up while the train is moving over it? Did I miss understand... or is this really true?
Signal blocks are created by insulated joints in the signal rail. When the train "Keys By" it gets onto the block circuit by crossing over one of the IJs. If the train is moving slow enough, the stop arm will go down before the tripcock strikes it. Once the stop arm is down, it'll stay down as long as the train is on the circuit.
There is what is called a retaining circuit which will hold the stop arm down until the train completely passes thru the area. A stop arm can come up underneath a train. Emergency brakes will activate and the motorman has to investigate. The motorman has to hook down the stoparm (hope there is room!) or can push a call on button at a home signal ( a double lens signal) or K signal for the stop arm to go down. Sometimes just by pushing down the stop arm is all that is needed. All this results in a delay in service,& many late trains due to this signal problem. A call on is given by the towerman. It is the yellow light under the red signal which is displayed in very limited situations. Hope I explained this in a non confusing way..
I've always wondered how the trip worked. THANKS!!
Another point about keying by red lights is that train operators are no longer allowed to do so on their own intiative. They have to get approval from the towers in order to key by.
I believe this policy was adopted a few years ago after a couple of read-end collisions.
Keying-by a STOP indication was the cause of the rear-end collision involving two CTA trains on the Loop at Lake/Wabash in 1977. The motorman, later found to be under the influence, stopped his Lake-Dan Ryan train at the Randolph/Wabash Station. A Ravenswood train was stopped ahead, with its last car on the curve. After completing his station work, the motorman of the Lake St. train proceeded forward. He was stopped by the Cab Signal, at which point he keyed-by the stop indication and ran into the back of the Ravenswood train. After the initial collision, this operator again applied power and this action caused the first four cars of his Lake Street train to fall from the elevated structure to the street below. Eleven people lost their lives. Keying-by, without permission from Control, is prohibited by CTA as a result.
I'm looking to get some photos of some of the work equipment for the NYCTA. Does anyone know where the equipment is normally stored?
The bulk of the equipment is stored at Pelham Diesel Shop in the Bronx and 36th St yard in Brooklyn. The best photos would likely be gotten around 36th St yard. There is also a lot of non-revenue equipment being stored at Jamaica Yard. The yard is serving as a staging area for many of the work trains used on the 63rd St. connector project.
Hello out there railfans. I am fairly new to this site and hobby. I find this site to be a tremendous base of knowledge on rapid transit systems. And for whoever is responseble for this site my hats off to you for a JOB WELL done. I have a question concerning NYC Transit. Does the MTA NYC Transit publish a book or manual for lack of better words would be like anything you ever wanted to know about TA. Example like location of the bus depots or subways yards. Which subway lines come out of which yards. Total amount of rolling stock. Answers to questions like that. Would appreciate any imput.
they publish something called insiders guide which tells you everything youd want to know about buses. call the dept of buses at 25 jamaica av and ask for one. a1998 issue should be available soon.
Quite a bit of that info is available at the MTA website. Click around here: http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/
Mike
What's a good source for underbody car details, i.e, resistor boxes, compressors, etc.? I have the Revenue and Non-revenue Car Drawings as well as The Evolution of the New York City Subways and New York City Subway Cars. Of all of them, only the "evolution" book has some information in the form of a poorly drawn projection.
For cars currently in service, I can stand on a platform and photograph trains as the go by. It's a 75 mile trip for me so I have to plan it in advance but it's altogether feasible. Scrapped cars are a different story. Even the transit museum is of little help for these due to the platforms and tunnel walls. Some details appears on the pages here but most of them feature the car bodies and any underbody features are typically in the shadows.
The tracks just beyond 205 St. station are simply relay tracks ending at a bumper block, each track holding one 600 foot train (8 car R44 and up or 10 car R32 to 42) . The move to Concource Yard from 205 St. is accomplished in a cut (7 track) found between Bedford Park and 205 St. The 2 tracks to Concourse Yard from Bedford Park are tracks 5&6. By this a train can be wyed at this yard. 7 track is approximately 600 feet south od 205 St.
On May 24, 1931, The Baltimore and Ohio RR (B&O) began service on the ``Columbian'' run between NYC and Washington D.C. The passenger train was the first train with air conditioning. Today the very same route is traveled by the ``Metroliner'' from Washington D.C., to New York City and on up to Boston as well.
On May 24, 1954, in Jersey City, N.J., the first traveling sidewalk in a railroad station has begun operation.
Charlie Muller.
You're absolutely right about the date - but remember that today's Amtrak trains between NYC and DC use the old PRR main line, not the B&O. The B&O trains departed Jersey City, not Manhattan. The only place the B&O and PRR shared a station was was Washington Union Station. There were times in the teens and 20's when the B&O did operate into NY Penn Station (under government orders, over PRR objections), but the B&O route from Jersey City to Washington used the Jersey Central to Bound Brook, the Reading from Bound Brook to Philadelphia, and the B&O Main Line from Philadelphia southward.
> On May 24, 1954, in Jersey City, N.J., the first traveling sidewalk
> in a railroad station has begun operation.
Yup, in the Hudson & Manhattan (PATH) Erie (Pavonia-Newport) station. It's gone now. Or, should I say... it is probably hidden from view. I'm pretty sure that station has some closed exit corridors (mainly at the south end of the station). I'd love to poke around back there.
The H&M Grove (-Henderson) St. Station also has two closed exits (one at each end of the platform). The north exit had escalators to the street, so I heard. The headhouse under the PRR got torn down along with the PRR. I assume the new mezzanine and street exit was built at that time (in the 60s).
-dave
There is one closed exit in plain view.on the island platform use the exit across from the side platform's exit. Go uip those staits and you'll see the exit boarded up(from the side plat)
This Day in Train History was borrowed fron The History Channel on the internet. It tells us what happed on this day May 24 in certain years.
So this is where i found out about the two things about the B&O and the moving sidewalk in Jersey City, New Jersey.
Charlie Muller.
Have the R 1/9 sign. It has all the terminals such as 207 & 168/Wash Hts, 205 & Bedford Park/Concourse, 179-Jamaica, Queens/Forest Hills, BWay Lafayette, 34 st & 6 Av, Houston/2d Ave, Kings Highway, Coney Island.
Also have the other one. Not sure if it is from a Standard or Triplex. Let me know.
About the R-1/9 sign: is it still attached to the rollers? How about the sign frame and roller mechanism? My sign is complete with mechanism, so it doesn't matter. Are there by any chance older terminals which are now through stations? I saw a bulkhead destination sign once which had Queens-Kew Gardens.
As for the other one: it will probably have routes or destinations. If I remember right, the standards had two sets of signs on each car side; they were on either side of the center doors. The upper sign gave the route; the lower indicated the destination. On the Canarsie line, both upper signs would be set to 14th St. L'c'l; one of the bottom signs would say Canarsie, the other 8th Av. Manh'tt'n. On the triplex units, there were four signs clustered together; one would give the route, two had the destinations; the fourth indicated whether the train was running via bridge or tunnel. In addition, the end signs were illuminated in green if the train was running via bridge and white if it was running via tunnel. As Brian Cudahy put it, "some New Yorkers rode these cars to work for as long as 30 years without ever knowing the meaning of the BMT's carefully and thoughtfully worked out signals."
Anyway, let's make a deal!
No through stations. The only oddity is "Court St. Boro Hall". Rollers are not attached, as I use the mechanism to display curtains of more recent vintage. Sign is in very good condition. One tear on an end, but not through any of the readings.
What I have must be a triplex. I would be happy to provide it for your examination and approval. E-mail me with details (Address, etc.) and I will let you know my thoughts.
My bulkhead destination curtain also has Court St.-Boro Hall. Just out of curiosity - which later vintage curtains are you displaying? Would they be the ones with lower case letters, or with the color-coded route signs which were installed on the R-16s, R-32s, and R-38s in the late 60s? (just wondering)
My email address is steveb@micromotion.com.
I have the ones with upper and lower case as well as the color coded one. The former I have in both A and B division versions, with slightly different assortments of typefaces and readings. Of the latter I have only one copy.
Right now, I am displaying "E (in a blue circle) Parsons Blvd." & "5 (in a green circle) Bowling Green"
In case there was some misunderstanding, I am definitely interested in the older IND curtain, as well as what you think came from a Triplex. What's your email address?
Thr Redbirds if not all of them will be scraped by the year 2000. By that time they will be 45 years old. Can we let them go on for the remaning 5 years till they hit 50 years old and then let them off. But call me crazy lets leave two to three full 10 car redbirds so that we can still have a memory of the cars that took the people from the Bronx to Manhattan for 50 years. That will be that best thing to all of the New York City Subway Fans!!!
C. James Rivera
buy em park em in the back yard and than you can have subway cars and thell reach 50 years old.
Actually, having the Redbirds reach the 50-year mark wouldn't set any record because some cars have been in service that long, most notably the BMT Standards. And it looks like there's a decent chance that the R32s and R-38s will make it that long.
I like your idea. As a Conductor I like operating on the Redbirds. They have a special feel to them that I will miss when they go. I like not being closed in the cab, as is the case on the non-transverse 62's. I like dealing with the customers and when your on a Redbird and you straddle the cab door way between stations they know who is in charge. Now I am not crazy, the transverse 62's are great and it's gentle on the legs and ears(by not having to pass between cars for off side platforms). The main gripe I have with the 62's is the MDC (Master Door Controler) is positioned to high on the wall.
Sadly they are all going to go (to where I do not know) and none will remain in customer service. You and I will eventualy accept it, but I know I will have fond memories to share with those who will not have had the experince of the Redbirds.
How can we say goodbye to the Redbirds?
I hope the TA does something special, like a pre-planed final run with all the hoopla and fanfare they deserve. I know one thing for sure, I will try my best to be the Conductor on that final run. So I can straddle that door way one last time and proclaim proudly by my presence that I LOVE REDBIRDS.
They're probably not going to be all gone in two years. Won't this order be in parts spanning a ew years?
Can't the Transit Authority at least keep a few on the Times Square, Dyre Avenue, and/or Pelham Shuttle?
When the Dyre Ave line runs a shuttle they use Silverbirds (R 62's) modified for OPTO service. Pelham Shuttle is to be come OPTO and will most likely have the same set up. The TA is in the business of running a railroad and progress will push out the old. The TA will most likely do it's part and send a train of the best Redbird's to the Transit Museum. As much as I may lament my love of the Redbirds the TA is doing the right thing. They have lived there useful life and have served us well, but is time to move on. I will enjoy them while they last, and I will work were they are as much as possible. Fortunate for me, my two favorite lines have nothing but Redbirds. Well the (5) has few trains of Silverbirds, but I pretend there not there. ;-)
I'm sure the same can be said when it came time to retire the prewar equipment. Many Brooklynites were sad to see the BMT standards and Triplex units go by way of the scrapper's torch, to say nothing of my beloved R-1/9s, but life goes on and nothing lasts forever. One thing to take into consideration: spare parts are harder to come by for older equipment. Let's hope the R-32s and R-38s will be around a lot longer. Being stainless steel cars, I'll bet we'll still be riding them for years to come.
Are the redbirds the last of the carbon steel cars. if so it will be the passing of an era.
Yes, the R-36s were the last of the breed. Once the Redbirds are gone, that's it. All IND/BMT cars since the R-32s are stainless steel units. Let me rephrase that: all IND/BMT cars in service today are stainless steel units.
Just remember what it was like when the R62/62A's came onto the scene brand new. In 25-30 years, they could very well become the next candidates for the Nostalgia Special, and you'll remember these days fondly.
Not likely. The TA is in the business of moving people safely. The redbirds have a severe corrosion problem along the beltline and it would likely be cost prohibitive to rebuild them a second time. The TA also has to invest in its own infrastructure periodically, and that time has certainly come.
--Mark
The oldest of the Redbirds, the R-26s, will turn 40 this year. The newest ones, the R-36s, will be 34 this year. As far as I can tell, the only cars which remained in service for 50 years were the original Gibbs Hi-Vs. Their phaseout began with the arrival of the R-17s in October of 1955. I read somewhere that some of them were still running as late as 1958. Not that the BMT standards were far behind: on the average, they lasted 45 years. The oldest units from 1914 made their curtain call when the R-27s made their debut in 1960; the ones from 1924 lasted until 1969. With the exception of the pilot Triplex units, none of the others stayed around for even 40 years: they arrived in 1927-28 and the last ones departed from the scene in July 1965. The R-1/9s as a whole averaged 40 years; only the R-9s didn't stick around that long.
I am sure that the NY Division of the ERA will have another (or maybe a series of) "Farewell to the Redbirds" fantrips. After that, most will get scrapped, some will find their way as work cars or school cars and a few will get nice retirements at various trolley museums across the country,
And don't think there isn't hope for the married pairs. Seashore has a set of MBTA Orange, Red and the even older Blue line cars on their roster. I remember that the Blue line cars still ran (they have more than one set and one of them ran as a Halloween special), I don't know about the Orange Line cars but I'll bet the Red Line cars (01455-01456?) are still in running order - they were recently retired as of a few years ago. Maybe a set of redbirds will find their way up there, too.
Speaking of fond memories, I was at Seashore this past Sunday (it was members weekend though I'm not a member). The 2 R-9s (800 and 1440) came out to play for a little while after the museum closed. And boy do they sound (and run) as good as they ever did! It was worth the 2 hour wait (because of track work)!
--Mark
At Seashore, the Blue Line trains (0512/0513) ran in Halloween service ("the Terror Train") up until a few years ago. The cars now need some serious brake system work, in addition to other things.
Red Line car 0719 is in service as a work car, usually assigned to power our crane car. The newly acquired 01400's are not yet equiped with trolley poles; the cars sponsor has been busy on other projects.
Orange Line car 01000 runs nicely.
We have nearly two dozen Green Line PCCs, of various shapes and forms, though none are in regular service (our service PCC is 2709 from SEPTA).
But R4/R7 800/1440 is still my favorite rapid transit equipment there!
Unfortnately, I don't think Seashore will acquire any Redbirds, unless a sponsor with many thousands of dollars can be found. We need to cover the cost of acquisition, transporation, and storage -- we are very limited on track space and would need to build more storage track. Anyone interested???
2709 has a great paint job, BTW. 6618 was running, which I heard doesn't happen often.
I saw the IRT Gibbs car (3354) way in the back of the museum in storage. I know someone (James E Tebbetts??) worked on it a few years back and removed the center door and sill, and restored it to its original 1904 appearance with side doors in the vestibules only. It looks like there hasn't been any work done on it in a long time though. Did it ever run?
--Mark
The IRT Gibbs Car at Seashore (#3352 not 54) did indeed have the middle door removed by Jim many years ago. And even though it looks like it needs a lot of work inside (it does!), I have indeed run it. About five years ago I took it out the main line (3.5 miles round trip); and up until two years ago it made a yearly appearance in one of our Trolley Parades to get the wheels turning. Last year we discovered it has a brake stand problem on one end, and no one has had the time to explore /fix it yet. Maybe this year! I can tell you that the deadman button on the controller requires a LOT of effort. One round-trip to the end of our main line and your wrist will hurt. I hope that this is a sign of age (the car's not mine :-) and that motormen Way Back When had it somewhat easier.
I played with the outside door handles a bit myself and I could barely budge them. I remember reading that guards spaced between the cars had to have strong backs to open and close the doors, and boy, now I know what that author meant!
--Mark
You're right: conductors or guards on the IRT had to have strong arms and backs in order to open and close those manual doors. Interborough Cars goes so far as to say that those doors were "brutal". Little wonder that the Gibbs Hi-Vs, whose vestibule doors were always manually operated, 3352 included, were among the first cars to be retired when the R-17s arrived, although three of them lasted until 1958. That means those three cars gave 54 years of service, which has to be a record for subway cars. Reading on, it says that those old Hi-Vs were used on shuttle lines and locals (they would have been perfect on the Bowling Green-South Ferry shuttle; they could just open the center doors), and if they were used on longer trains of MUDC cars, they would always be placed on the ends so that each conductor would have one manual door apiece to worry about.
BTW, maybe the doors on 3352 could use a little greasing now and then, or just some exercise.
I'll let Todd do the talking on 3352. I do have another question on it: being a Hi-V, it natually has a 9- or 10-notch controller on either end. How high have you pegged it up while running it? (I'll bet you don't keep any coffee with you while that thing is running!) I gather that running a train of Hi-Vs was like riding a 10-speed bike or driving a semi.
Well of course most of our older trolleys at Seahore are "Hi-V" and have 600V running through the controller, so we teach our operators to be careful on all of our cars. And as in most public operations, we have a no food/drink rule on the cars anyway. One of our safety rules is that when showing how a controller works (by opening the casing), the pole must be down and breaker off.
I don't remember the exact number of points on the controller, but it is something like 5 to full series and 4 or 5 to full parallel. Since our run to the end of the main line is uphill, I've had the car in full parallel for a stretch. Coming back it's downhill, so we tend to notch up then coast to take advantage of cost-saving gravity! Our power costs are astronomical!
You're right about most trolleys being essentially Hi-Vs. When I visited the Shoreline Museun for the first time, they let me run one of the Connecticut Company open bench cars. That controller must have had 10 notches, but they wouldn't take it up past the third notch. Manning the controller was easy; getting a feel for the air brakes was a whole 'nother ballgame. If you weren't careful and took too big of a bite of air, as you well know, you could throw the car into an emergency stop! It was fun, though. They also took out R-9 #1689 for a spin after the museum had closed; although I didn't run it, I was perched on one of the step plates, opening and closing the doors. I felt like a kid!
Shoreline doesn't run their subway equipment all that much, either. Those cars do guzzle a lot of power. I heard that they once took R-17 #6688 out on the mainline, and put the controller in multiple. The car took off like a bullet! It was in good running condition when they got it, and it needed very little work. The interior is in excellent shape, too. On top of that, the TA even painted it Redbird red!
One other question: you mentioned earlier that our personal favorites, R-4 #800 and R-7 #1440, aren't run very often, but when they are taken out, does anyone serve as conductor? I mean, opening and closing the doors and all that. If I were a member at Seashore, I would be first in line to do so.
P. S. Maybe that deadman's button on 3352 has gotten a bit stiff from lack of use. Either that, or the springs haven't slackened one bit. Perhaps the controllers themselves could use a little cleaning. Those were big buttons back then, weren't they?
The 3352 dead man is indeed a big button! I'm sure time has taken its toll... and it could be loosened up some.
When the IND cars go out, we have at least two, sometimes three qualified operators on the train: We want one in each car.. and if there are riders on board, a third to watch the people and tend the pole through frogs (something the TA never had to worry about!)
> Shoreline doesn't run their subway equipment all that much, either.
> Those cars do guzzle a lot of power. I heard that they once took
> R-17 #6688 out on the mainline, and put the controller in multiple.
> The car took off like a bullet! It was in good running condition
> when they got it, and it needed very little work. The interior is in
> excellent shape, too. On top of that, the TA even painted it Redbird
> red!
I had the opportunity to operate 6688 2 years ago. Got it into multiple for a stretch. You had to be careful not to do it too fast or you popped a circuit breaker on the line (oops - did that too!). Very good acceleration and the brakes were very sensitive. You don't realize how fast you're going until you glance to the side and see the trees whizzing by! Better slow down before that S curve!! When Seashore got it, it was already painted as a redbird and was in great operating condition. It still is. You can catch it during New York Transit Days weekend. They usually have 6688, BRT 4573 and R-9 1689 MUed to Lo-V 54xx (brakes only). (I don't know when it's scheduled for this year, but I'll try to find out).
--Mark
I take it that when R-9 #1689 and Lo-V #5466 are coupled together, they are not coupled electrically. How about the door controls? I understand the door controls on the R-1/9s were similar to the remote door controls on the Hi-Vs and Lo-Vs.
Too bad Shoreline didn't acquire a second R-1/9 the way Seashore did. Maybe someday they'll get that BMT standard 2775 running. By the way, how about Hi-V #3662? Does it run? I've never seen it out on the mainline. I have seen the H&M car running, though.
[ I take it that when R-9 #1689 and Lo-V #5466 are coupled together, they are not coupled electrically.]
Right (although I forgot if the lights were powered or not). The R9 pulled in one direction, the trolley pole was lowered at the end of the line, and the Lo-V trolley pole was raised in its place to pull the train back.
[ How about the door controls? ]
They usually only pulled the R9 up to their platform and opened those doors only, so I'll guess they weren't trainlined, either.
[ By the way, how about Hi-V #3662? Does it run?]
Yes, it runs. One day I was there I waited to see it, but never got to ride it myself. They didn't get it out until well into the evening and my kids weren't very patient at all.
[ I have seen the H&M car running, though. ]
Has any work been done on this car? Last time I saw it (1995), it wasn't in good shape at all.
--Mark
I updated the Museum roster page the other night with some more stuff. Todd Glickman sent me some photos of some of the cars at Seashore which I'll get scanned as soon as i can...
I personally haven't been to Shoreline since 1995, either, and then I stopped by briefly on a weekday. There was minimal staffing, and they had BRT convertible car #4573 (I think) out on the mainline. The barns were closed; TARS #629 and R-17 #6688 were parked outside. The only time I saw H&M #503 running was in 1980 during their trolley festival. The exterior looked pretty good back then; I have never seen its interior. It's nice to hear that #3662 runs. Interestingly enough, there's only one other car it could m. u. with: Seashore's 3352. (Chances are they were coupled together at some point during their careers on the IRT, or at least ran in the same train.)
BTW, how's Brooklyn PCC #1001? During a visit in the fall of 1984 or '85, one of the members said it would have to be re-restored due to corrosion as a result of exposure to salt in the air. I have seen it and have sat inside it, but have not seen it run.
During the weekday in the summer we run BRT 4573 and Johnstown 357 as we did last Tuesday. With ConnCo 775,TARS 629 and Montreal 2001 on standby in the yard leads. I will inquire about 1001 next week and see where its hidden to see whats going on with it.
Speaking as one of the Shore Line Trolley Museum (aka Branford)
shop guys, let me address some of the points that I've seen raised:
When we run the R9/LoV train, it is an air & iron mate. The rear
car of the train is not on the wire and does not take power.
We've been toying with the idea of a bus line jumper so the rear
car can have fans and lights.
To hook up MU is electrically feasible. There are some
subtle differences. The LoV uses PC-10 control, the R-9 PC-15.
The latter has a variable load acceleration control. The notching
points of the two cars would be tough to synchronize, and
the ride would be jerky. The R-9 has an "electric portion" on
its coupler to pass the trainline signals, while the Lo-V uses
sockets and jumpers. MU operation would require fabrication of
some kluge sockets on the R-9 to run back into the trainline junction
box under the car. Ick. Plus, although the train would be faster,
I don't think we presently have enough ampacity in the substation to
sustain two subway cars transitioning to parallel at the same time.
Trainline door control is a non-event. There are only two cars,
and the conductor is in the middle where s/he can press the door
control buttons of both cars anyway.
PCC car #1001 (the first _production_ PCC) is operable. As someone
noted, it needs a good paint job. The last complete painting was
over 30 years ago. A full restoration of the car would also involve
dealing with some of the metal corrosion The car was last operated
in semi-public service on Member's Day 1997. Because of the
fragility of the vehicle and its historical importance, we tend
to minimize its operation.
Jeff
Do you know how the weather was in New Haven this past weekend? Was it as wet as other places in the northeast? Did Photographers Day go off as scheduled, or will we have a June 20th Rain Date.,
Jeff, Can't someone from Boston help you ... they ran MU PCCs for years. I have fond memories of riding them !
Mr t__:^)
The TA came to its senses last Wednesday by canceling its plans to institute a summer light riding schedule this year. By waiting this long it cost the TA mucho dinero and inconvenienced its employees who had to pick jobs starting Monday AM only to have them cancelled. Also, schedule makers made up schedules for no reason, and reams of paper were wasted because run books had to be printed and distributed to terminals. They should have never considered light riding this summer in light of the current heavy ridership.
If ALL light riding is cancelled, then that means that the [7] train will not be cut from 11 to 10 cars, and that the R-33s without air conditioning will be in operation all summer! These cars are normally removed during the light riding summer season to ensure an all air conditioned fleet.
Maybe the 7 can run 11-car trains only when the Mets are playing at Shea, and then only before and right after ballgames. Maybe they could even bring back postgame expresses to Manhattan.
Sometimes, I truly think that the MTA considers anything other than a jam-packed subway train or bus to be wasteful and extravagent. Let's face it - ridership has increased, but service hasn't. The MTA claim it's under control, but I find I have to jam onto trains more often than usual. This summer with the new daily and weekly passes, it's just going to get worse. Who wants to wait 15-20 minutes in a 110 degree stinking subway station only to have to board a packed subway train? You can be sure none of the MTA planners are.
Due to track & switch replacement between Metropolitan Ave. & Fresh Pond Road stations, M service is replaced by shuttle bus from Friday 10PM to Tuesday 5AM. The bus situation is curious. Despite the line passing by Fresh Pond bus depot, (Brooklyn Division), the bus service is being handled by the Queens division: Queens Village, Jamaica & Casey Stengel depots. It is strange to see Orions running in that neck of the woods. A dispatcher told me Queens had the job because of a jurisdictional dispute. A driver told me Brooklyn didn't want it due to the long weekend and that Brooklyn had to supply many buses to south Brooklyn for the B&N lines the last few weekends due to switch replacement by Coney Island. When the service started Friday night, all buses started from Metropolitan Ave. thereby causing long waits for the first buses at Broadway Myrtle.
I have a solution for getting the JFK light rail line to Manhattan
( the final desination for most business people & tourists ) -
Instead of the light rail line terminating at Jamaica , close the
LIRR Long Island City branch line ( most stations were closed
this year anyway ) and use the ROW for the JFK light rail line ,
build a 2-track tunnel under the East River and a station
at 34rd St with a connection to Penn Station. For people going
to Long Island City , start shuttle service bet. Jamaica and LIC.
If there ever is a new East River tunnel (and breaths should not be held), using it exclusively for JFK light rail would be a huge waste of resources. Light rail ridership even under the most optimistic projections would be a fraction of the subway's.
I
Restoring the abandoned LIRR trackage to get from airport into the main system is a non starter because 1. This is not a PA owned ROW. 2. Using land already owned by the public presents very little opportunity for graft 3 The present scheme is mainly designed as empire building not transit. 4 Integrating the line into existing transit would be too convenient. After all imagine an express from Howard beach to Penn in 30 minutes you could get a few extra thousand riders a day just parking there if a lot were built. Think 30 minutes is optimistic? consult a 1951 Official Guide LIRR schedule--35 min. w/ stops. Even if the present plan is what we will be saddled with if the PA has a gram of sense they would build it to either H&M or IND specs at least if not full LIRR. Another stand alone differently engineered system is criminal. See Penny Bridge Station which is linkable from this site for further thoughts on the airport fiasco.
Ted, The LIC ROW wasn't abandon, just the stns bet Jamaica & Hunters Pt term of LIRR diesel line.
A better option would have been to use abandon LIRR ROW between main line (just East of Woodside) and Howard Beach (South of which is now IND route to Rockaways).
This would get U right to NYC & connect to LIRR.
The plan via Van Wyke to Jamaica has much more potential for future then mono-rail that was proposed many times.
I vote for a light rail line from the airport to the Jamaica LIRR station and to any station that the E or F stops at. Any Howard Beach connection will be resisted by most people because of a very lengthy ride and perceived risk on that line. The E and/or F is faster and more frequent. And a connection to both the subway and the LIRR allows those who want a cheap ride to anywhere to take the Subway, and those wanting a bit of space and comfort to take the LIRR (and those coming from LI to/from get the light rail, too). The wealthy won't use anything other than a cab or limousine, anyway, even if it is slow, since they like privacy and being "served". [Exhibit A: Palm Beach Airport was built to attract wealthy passengers with an extremely expensive looking environment and amenities. They didn't realize that the truly wealthy use their own aircraft at a local private airfield.]
Carl,
But who are the "wealthy" that MTA/Port Auth thinks this line is going to serv ? I'm from Nassau county, southern area. From here I have Grandsma's car service (1/2 hour) or LI Bus "JFK Flyer" (a bit longer). Would a "wealthy" person lug his/her bags to a LIRR stn, then hump them up & dwn stairs at Jamaica to get to the correct platform then lug them dwn the stairs at JFK to the terminal .... I think not ! After all most destinations from JFK are Int'l, i.e. folks with lots of luggage vs. businessmen & shorter stays from that OTHER airport in NYC.
The JFK (IND) Express had the same problem ... too much horsing around to make it practible for the average Joe. For those who don't know what I'm talking about ... NYC=dedicated platform, then at Howard Beach hump the bags to a bus that went to the terminals.
However it occurs to me that a direct link from NYC or a convient connection at Jamaica (NYC arrives on same track at JFK train) might draw some traffic.
Mr t :^)
I have a strong suspicion that the JFK light rail link is *not* being built in order to serve a real demand for such service. Instead, it's a matter of political patronage and keeping up with the Joneses ... or, more accurately, keeping up with the Hartsfields and the O'Hares :-)
Right, but in fact still a useul idea IF done right. Cleveland/Hopkins, DC/National are really easy to use, O'Hare works fairly well. Midway is the long walk many stairs up and down bummer. In ANY case however at least half of the users will be arrivals, and JFK is the airport of choice for convenient transcon nonstops. The criminal silliness is building a new system incompatible with any of the other half dozen styles of train i n the area. Think about how Philly can't get a decent third rail car on schedule 'cause its a custom design, while CTA or PATH just go back for copies. Since PA is going to operate this one (a mistake) the system should mimic what they already have-- NO long learning curve! AND ONE parts inventory maintenance maybe even just the same shops. It might be cheaper to ferry cars than build and staff a second facility. SO THINK, GUYS!!
It seems to me that the comprehensive solution is to:
1. transfer ownership of the LIRR L.I.C. branch to the P.A.
2.transfer the #7 steinway tunnels to the P.A. (IRT same standards as PATH)
3. connect current end of #7 IRT tracks at 7th and 41st to existing PATH via 32nd streets and 11th Ave.
4. run PATH from WTC via 6th Ave, penn station, javit center, times square, and grand central to Jamaica and JFK
5. convert the Flushing line back to BMT/IND standards and runit through the 63d st. tunnel
Ted, That's an idea that deserves some further consideration ...
I observe a couple of problems with it:
1. What about all those "Wealthy" folks on LI that want to take the LIRR to JFK ? (the LIC line doesn't go near Jamaica or any other main LIRR point)
2. (#7 diversion) What about all the existing IND B/D/F traffic on the 6th Ave line ? It sure makes since for the #7 riders who want to go down-town and could avoid the change at Grandcentral or 42nd St. Why not put the #7 on the N line at Queens Plaza and let the F/V/R switch to 63rd St tunnel ?
What I like the most is ONE train between Newark & JFK with a stop in NYC.
Mr t__:^)
Trouble with diverting the 7 or the Queens Blvd trains from their existing tunnels to the 63rd Street tunnel is that they will not be able to connect to all the Lex Ave lines. In order to go downtown they cannot rely on the B/D/F/Q - it mainly serves midtown. That would mean shoving even more people on the 7th and 8th Ave lines at Times Square, or creating a transfer headache at Queensborough Plaza.
Here's what our esteemed Mayor should do instead of chasing after hotdog vendors:
Its time for a Queens Super Express. ROW on LIC LIRR branch goes to MTA.
Phase 1) Trains run from Jamaica to LIC; Ferrys across to 34th St.
Phase 2) Tie LIRR tracks into J line having them divert as J leaves tunnel and becomes el. Stops on Queens super express will be Metropolitan (change for M), LIC.
Phase 3) Tie 7, Queens Super Express and G into a station near Vernon-Jackson at LIC.
Phase 4) Tunnel under 34th St. stops include transfers for Lex, Bway, etc.
Pahse 5) Tie it into 8th Ave line. Have it terminate at unused station at 42nd St.
L Man,
Did U consider tie of LIC LIRR line to G then G switch to 63rd St tunnel ?
Eye also wouldn't wait till end to extend 7 to 8th ave. Does anyone know why TA won't do that ? The tracks exist, so just build stn or unused stn on 8th Ave.
Mr t__:^)
That wouldn't be effective because of the construction costs and disruption of service. To tie the G into the 63rd St. line, you'd have to tunnel under the Queens Blvd. lines. If that were to happen, it might be a generation until it happened. Also, think of the displacement of service, etc. you could loop the G building an above ground track at the Queens waterfront, but that would underutilize the line, unless the shorefront grew in population and economics.
The best way to go is a 34th St. tunnel.
I also have another suggestion ( for those people who think
building the Light Rail is a waste of money ) :
Use the abandoned LIRR line which comes really close to JFK ,
and continue LIRR service on the LIC branch line ( with special
JFK airport trains similiar to Hong Kong's airport express trains
with comfortable seating arrangements & luggage storage ).
Build a new tunnel under the East River ( or use the existing
tunnels to 34rd St. Penn Station ) and new special platforms
at Penn Station.
I would like pictures of any r32 or r38 and any pictures of stations (in use or closed) you have. My email address is ruffalo@adelphia.net I will appreciate anything you can send me.
Thanks again,
Matt Ruffalo
You should find all the pictures you need on this web site.
Go to the main page http://www.nycsubway.org/
and do a search or follow the directions to the pictures
If you don't find them there, there are some attached to this page:
http://www.quuxuum.org/~nixon
-Hank
To Bus buffs,
I need to know on what NYCT depots did the WMATA buses come out of when they were on NYCT propert from late 1980 until mid 1981. Please post on subtalk.
I remember WAMATA buses on the M6 and M42 (then the M106), which would have been 54th St/9th Ave. depot. I also remember the DC buses on 5th Ave routes - so either 132nd/B'way or 146/Lenox depots would have been their homes.
I also remember them on the M-100 so that would also add Amsterdam Depot to the list.
At MABSTOA, I don't recall seeing them on 132 St, or 146 St routes (I could be wrong), but they were definitely at 54 St depot and I rode them very often on Amsterdam routes. I also remember spotting a 35 Ft GM fishbowl on a SI Express route. It appeared that Amsterdam had most of them. It still amazes me to still see some of them in service today.
Hi
I'm an architecture student at Curtin University in Perth, Western Australia. I'm undertaking an assignment comparing the City of Perth with the City of New York and I'm using the railway systems as a basis to compare similarities and differences, in culture, planning, architecture etc. Has anyone got anything interesting to share - stories, facts, pictures etc. I have never been to New York and I am just starting this assignment so anything to give me a bit of insight would be helpful and much appreciated. Thanks!
Carli
Years ago, the M train was switched from the Brighton to the 4th Avenue/West End. Does anyone know the official reason why? I had always heard that it was because the Manhattan Bridge South-Side tracks were closed. How can this be, when the M doesn't even use the bridge. Also, whether the M was via Brighton or 4th Avenue, it would still arive/depart the same track at Dekalb both uptown and downtown.
It was mainly because at the same time as the North side tracks closed, two tracks at a time were taken out of service on the Brighton, and skip-stop service ran. Since the policy is to have both skp stop services go to the same place (like the 1/9 and J/z) to avaoid confusion, instead of suspending the Q and keeping the M as they had done in the bridge closures before, the moved the M (to 95th St at first) and extended the Q to all day service.
They left it on the West End, Ibelieve because the Q service has more capacity, and they're not going to have three services on the Brighton untilthe whole bridge mess is over, and they can make a permanent assignment.
I think it has to do with getting a reasonable number of trains on all lines, given service cuts on the R, N and B.
Right now (according to the MTA schedule) the number of trains is F 12-14; D 10 and Q 9; R 9; N 10; B 7 and M 6. If the M were on the Brighton, the average wait would be nearly 10 minutes on the West End and 7 minutes on the 4th Ave local. They need the trains over there to maintain a reasonable rush hour headway.
The Brighton Line seems packed. If half the Manhattan Bridge tracks were not out of service, the TA could add the 6 M trains to the Brighton (total of 25), and another six trains somewhere on the 4th Avenue. As it is, they have to ration what they have, balancing crowding and a reasonable headway.
When the M ran on the Brighton Line, the M was the Local and the D was the express, with a couple of QB trains to give Broadway bridge service to the die-hards who wouldn't go to 6th Avenue. The main reason for the switch to having two bridge trains on the Brighton Line was to cut switching at DeKalb Avenue. Now all Brighton trains go from Atlantic Avenue to the Bridge Track, all 4th Avenue locals (M and R) and the N (sometimes local, sometimes express) go to the DeKalb Avenue tunnel track, and the B (4th Avenue Express) always goes on the "Skip DeKalb" center track and joins up with the Q and D after the DeKalb bottleneck. If a Brighton tunnel train still existed, there would be even more switching at DeKalb as the Brighton tunnel train would have to merge with the 4th Avenue tunnel train. I have no idea what they will do when the Broadway side of the Bridge reopens.
As crowded as the Brighton Line is, the M being only 8 cars became a problem. As previously suggested M service was supplemented by the QB on the Brighton in order to have almost equal Brighton Locals (M&QB) and Express D. They also did marketing surveys which determined that over 50% of Brighton riders who rode the M needed another train to finish their trip.
Yes, the M train would enter DeKalb on the same track regardless of whether it comes or goes to the Brighton or 4th Ave lines. The Montague St. tunnel tracks are the inside tracks next to the bypass tracks. The bypass tracks lead from the Manhattan Bridge directly to the 4th Ave. line.
Would anyone disagree if I said let's get rid of New York's most useless route after the #9 train-the M! Either get rid of the Z, and make the M an express and make it's rush-hour route permanent or just tear down the Myrtle/Metropolitan El. It's not really useful if you ask me. Why do we have so many darn expresses that go ot the same place eventually, like the trains on the 6th Avenue line(B,D,F and Q). How many expresses do you need? The Q? You don't need the Q! When does it ever run in it's own tunnel, el, open-cut etc? Or the rush-hour C! Make the rush hour routes permanent. Maybe I live in the limbo section of the Bronx, but I think we could use that C ALL THE TIME!!
And what's the deal with the 9? Two locals on one line and no express?
What is that? Why not use the third track after 96th Street as some rush-hour routing(gods forgive me for making another damn rush-hour only routing).
And I'll go one better. Let's have a new route. From Franklin and Fulton to Stillwell. Why don't we use all these tracks and connections?! They sit there and rot when they could be pu to good use. We have 3 expresses on 6th, two follow the exact same route(except for that crazy B) and express tracks under Broadway that haven't been used since Nixon was president!
What Waste!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The M train portion from Myrtle/Broadway to Metropolitan Ave. serves an area without rapid transit service save for the Canarsie Line under Wyckoff Ave. Ridgewood and Middle Village residents depend on the M to reach Lower Manhattan. Years ago I was a daily M rider from Metropolitan Ave. to Fulton St. Not a good idea to tear down this line. Re-routing its service on the old BMT southern division is another issue - probably has to wait for the Manhattan Bridge south side to re-open.
The 1/9 skip stop is a Chicago style A/B service on New York's second longest single route line (the other is the similar J/Z service in Brooklyn and Queens). Using the center track above 96th Street is useless because no 3 track station on the entire line has an express type layout (re: 61/Woodside on the #7) so many heavy traffic stations on the line (116th St, 137th St.,) would be skipped. Then there's the question of having full-time interlockings 145th St., and Dyckman St, as well as more coimplicated routings at 96th St..
Bad idea! I would have to agree to have the M train end it's route at either Broad St or Chambers St. Chambers St would be a better option since there are two extra tracks unlike Broad St. The M train DOES NOT carry a whole set of passengers once it leaves Manhattan from Broad St. Here's a better plan:
Why not have the M terminate at Chambers St. Have the J/Z run express from Marcy to Myrtle Ave's. With the M now terminating at Chambers, this will provide extra available cars which could be used for the Z line to run additional express service from Myrtle to Eastern Pkwy. This cut down on riders who rely on the already packed Queens Blvd and 8th Ave/Fulton St line. Share your thoughts on this plan.
-Garfield
They already do this. J/Z is peak direction express, Myrtle-Marcy. The M terminates at Chambers all times except Rush Hours, when it runs to Bay Parkway/West End.
And 'BMT' is in Limbo land....the C no longer goes to the Bronx, and with all the yelling and screaming about crowding going on, he wants to REDUCE service?
-Hank
There's no yelling and screaming about it. The main reason why J/Z "skip-stop" service was introduced was to ease congestio on the four lines under Queens Blvd. Another crowded line is the "A". I say it about 2nd or 3rd when it comes to an overcrowded subway line. Most people in Brooklyn decide to transfer at Eastern Pkwy to catch the express downstairs. In my earlier post, another move should be made to have the Z run express from Eastern Pkwy to Marcy Ave with the rest being skip stop with it's brother being the J. The middle express track is there and in good condition. Let's use the resource for better and worthwhile reasons which will provide benefits for subway riders.
If you ran the Z express and the J local during rush hour, everyone would get off the J at Eastern Parkway and change for the Z.
Basically, the J and Z are just two names for a J(1) and J(2) service. They have to be equivalent so that the loads remain the same for each of them.
There is really no gain in having J(2) skipping 3 or 4 stations if people will wait another 5 minutes to get it.
I don't see what anyone's complaint is. The J and Z skip 2 of the four stations as it is. Having one skip 4 and the other skip none saves nothing.
The M is needed into southern Brooklyn during rush hour because the B service is every 8 minutes. The M gives the West End Line 4-minute service during Rush Hours.
The Q runs on 6th Avenue because an express is needed on the Brighton Line and the Broadway Bridge are currently unavailable.
Having a Brighton train go directly to Franklin Avenue will either cause lots of people to change at Fulton St. to the C train increasing the crowding on that line, or
more likely, just make Brighton Line crowding worse, because not that many people want to get a transfer and run down two flights of steps and cross a crowded street just to get a C train into Manhattan, when by taking the other Brighton train, they would have gotten there just as easily.
Let's end the ranting and raving...
No one is ranting and raving my friend. That's the point of Subtalk, where everyone shares his or her own ideas. That's the point I'm making. Cut the not needed M service on the West End line and thus use the extra cars for the Z. There is no equivalant "J1 and J2". And I DO NOT see the need for the M stretching down further past Chambers St. There's hardly anyone standing once it leaves Manhattan. Skip -Stop service was like the best that ever happened to that line. The time it takes to depart Broad St and pull into Eastern Pkwy is no more than a half hour. Just imagine have a train run express skipping four more additional stations would be better. You got to think of the other lines that are taking the brunt of passengers. Maybe you don't ride these lines and are speaking the little you know. And I repeat they're is no ranting and raving about it. If you feel that there is and it's bothering you; THEN LEAVE !!!!!!!!!!
-GARFIELD
Let's take a somewhat different spin on this one. What if a rush hour only service left CANARSIE, used the rarely-used connector to the Broadway EL, then ran express to Essex Street and terminated at Chambers St? You could leave the skip-stop J/Z intact and still provide additional service on the Broadway El, and even provide passengers a faster trip from Canarsie into Manhattan?
--Mark
I didn't know about the connector at Eastern Pkwy. If it's still intact, then your idea is a really good one. This will allow the J/Z to run express from Eastern Pkwy to Chambers St.
Are there any full time interchanges on the system(BMT) besides the one at Chambers?
It's been a few years since I've been at that station, but I believe the connector is still there.
That connector has not seen revenue service since July 1, 1968. It was used by #14 Broadway-Brooklyn trains during rush hours as well as the #14's letter counterpart, the JJ. This rush hour service ran from Rockaway Parkway or Atlantic Ave. to Canal St.
When the Lexington Ave. el was still around, there was a route which used this connection to gain access to the outer leg of the Fulton St. el and proceed to Lefferts Ave. This service ended when the Lexington Ave. el closed in 1950.
Since 1968, this connector is used non-revenue maneuvers. I once saw a J train pull into Eastern Parkway, dump its load, and take the connector out to Atlantic Ave. It could have gone to Canarsie yard, though I'm not sure where it ended up.
The connector is alive and well, thank you. The last Nostalgia Train went out to Canarsie via the Broadway El and Eastern Pkwy/Bway Juction, and we used the connector to switch onto the Canarsie Line. The connector in the opposite direction is still in non-revenue use, although I have seen an L train use it and become a J train when there was trouble on the L line.
--Mark
Mark, e.al.,
Does anyone konow why the TA doesn't run (rush-hour)L trains out of Carnarsie onto the J/M route ? It would seem to be something the Carnarsie folks would use a lot, may be even draw some of the traffic off of the 3/4.
P.S. Educate me on M/J/Z ... how many tracks between Myrtle and Broadway ... if it's only two ... there's my answer.
Mr t__:^)
There are three tracks between Broadway-Myrtle and Marcy Ave. Myrtle Ave. is an express station with 2 island platforms. The center track accessible from both platforms. The other stations up to the Williamsburgh Bridge (including Marcy Ave) have side platforms with the middle track unaccessible.
Don't know why there are no revenue runs from the Broadway El to the Canarsie Line - but certainly equipment moves are made this way. Keep in mind that if the Williamsburgh Bridge is closed to train traffic in 1999, this service would have to terminate. The opposite will need to occur - transfer customers at East NY from the J/Z to the L and the A/C.
Also since the M, J, & Z each run on 10 minute headways, that means you have a train every 3+ minutes in the height of the rush. You can't run many more trains than that based on the signal system & speed of the trains.
Bear in mind why the 14th St Line was built -- to get people to Midtown. In 1990, only 500,000 people worked south of 14th St, and 1.5 million worked to the north. The 14th St line give you a connection to every north-south route, so you can take the one closest to you destination. It's even faster to Downtown, if you work west of Broadway.
A large share of those on the M transfer to the L. Most on the Broadway line transfer to the F uptown. Don't know why the connection from the Willie B to the uptown 6th Ave line was only used briefly.
Larry,
Thanks for info. I thought the "L" was under used, but your data makes a lot of since & it's good that the public understands this too.
Mr t__:^)
There was a posting some time ago which mentioned that there were far fewer KK, later K, trains than F trains, and that it was less time-consuming to simply change to an F at Essex St.
It's too bad they didn't put in a second set of connecting tracks headed in the opposite direction; i. e., towards the Montague St. tunnel.
I've also wondered why the tunnel from the Willie B to the 6th Avenue line is not in regular service. Why not send the M uptown along 6th Avenue and keep the J/Z on it's present routing. Or split the J and Z. Send one to Broad Street and the other to 6th Avenue. The KK failed because it was a long local ride. In my opinion, the only way a Broadway-WillieB-6th Avenue connection would work is if it ran express along Broadway in Brooklyn (Not Skip-Stop, but normal express.)
Very good idea! Better idea: Run a "V" service (or a new "K" service, if you are nostalgic) from Rockaway Parkway in Canarsie to Eastern Parkway (using the flyover connection between the Canarsie and Broadway lines) then run it EXPRESS all the way to Marcy Avenue,
(with a stop at Myrtle Avenue) then up 6th Avenue to 57th Street or to 21st-Queensbridge. Of course, we'll have to wait until Manhattan Bridge is fixed up so the "Q" can go back to Broadway where it belongs. This would allow the above "V" or "K" service to run express along 6th Ave. as well. Just a suggestion....
I believe the Williamsburg connection runs into the 6th Ave local tracks, with have capacity. So Eastern Division/6th Ave service could start at any time. It could terminate at 57th.
I THINK (don't hold me to this one) that the Williamsburg connection
joins both express and local tracks just east of Broadway-Lafayette.
I could be wrong. Anyway, isn't there a crossover switch somewhere
near West 4th Street that would allow this service to use the uptown
6th Avenue express tracks? Good point on 6th Ave. local track
capacity - only "F" using it as of now, only two extra stops would
result.
Suggest using "V" because I have seen a few trains with their window destination signs showing it - in all cases white "V" on orange background, an indication of "6th Avenue". This way they don't have
to change sign rolls.
My motto is and always has been - more and better service, especially during the rush hours. Now with MetroCard and the monthly/weekly/
daily passes coming this summer, you can bet more people will be
riding on ALL routes. Bring back the "G" to Church Avenue, anyone?
The Williamsburgh Bridge connector ties into the local tracks under Houston St. between Broadway-Lafayette and 2nd Ave. The 6th Ave. line has scissor switches between each pair of tracks just north of W. 4th St.
As I noted previously, there is a train during the rush every 3 1/3 mins. since the J M & Z all run on 10 minute headways. Something would have to be cut if you are going to add a service from Canarsie. Plus with the eventual long term construction closing of the WillyB, they won't start anything new now.
I was not aware of the potential closing of the Williamsburg Bridge!
Do clue me in. No doubt this will impact ALL Broadway Brooklyn
service.
5 months beginning next May. So when service is restored around the turn of the Millennium, maybe they would make some changes. I had been thinking about such a service running from Canarsie to 6th Av. for evenings and weekends. Then the M would run to Chambers, and to avoid unneeded duplicative services, the J would run from Jamaica to the Eastern Pkwy middle track, and the L would run from Manhattan to Atlantic. Canarsie passengers for 14th service would be able to take the K to 14th St, as well as having direct access to midtown. People on the outer portion of the J have the option of using the A for a one seat ride to Manhattan.
Nifty idea! I hadn't thought of that angle.
Does Atlantic Ave. station have turnaround capability?
Here's another: Why not make the "A" a 24-7 express
(this would benefit airport passengers) and run the "C" to
Rockaway Park all the time, thus eliminating the need for
the Rockaway Park shuttle.
If the Fulton St. line has enough ridership around the clock to justify implementation of 24/7 A express and C local service, then I'd say go for it. I don't think that's going to happen, though, since most other trunk lines revert to local-only service during the late hours. On the other hand, having weekend express service along Fulton St. would be an excellent idea.
{ Does anyone konow why the TA doesn't run (rush-hour)L trains out of Carnarsie onto the J/M route ? It would seem to be something the Carnarsie folks would use a lot, may be even draw some of the traffic off of the 3/4. ]
It was a combination of ridership patterns, the long local that used to switch to the L route at Bway/Junction and several fiscal crisis'es that led to it not being done anymore, I think.
--Mark
Does it work both ways? If Willie B went down, can a Jamaica train get into the tunnel for the Canarsie Line. Will such service be offered while WillieB is being rebuilt? If not, why wasn't a connection added before the construction?
Unless the Jamaica line does some fancy stuff there is no connection. The only connections are:
J train to L to Canarsie
L train from Canarise to J Train to Broad Street
J to Yard
L to Yard
Please refer to the track maps at www.nycsubway.org
As far as adding one- This junction is already the most complicated El junction -I dont think there is space for more connections.
[ As far as adding one- This junction is already the most complicated El junction -I dont think there is space for more connections. ]
Ahh ... but there has been talk about tearing down "redundant portions" of the Bway/ENY complex and rebuilding it into a simpler junction. It resurfaces every now and then and is usually not considered because of cost constraints or other priorities. If you think of it, a great deal of that steel structure serves no purpose other than to shore up, or support, portions of the same structure still in use. If this junction were to be simplified, it is conceivable that a connection from the Jamaica El to the Canarsie Line towards Manhattan could be built.
Why wasn't it done earlier? I can only guess that ridership patterns never dictated the need for it.
--Mark
>Why wasn't it done earlier? I can only guess that ridership patterns never dictated the need for it. <
I also think that the "Fulton - 14th " service from Lefferts, which if my memory serves me was never much of a winner, served most of the same area. Again a long "Local Only" trip
The 14th St.-Fulton St. service came into existence with the introduction of the multisectional units. Because they were constructed of metal, they could run in the subway, where wooden el cars were prohibited; because they were lightweights, they could run on the genuine, unrebuilt els, where steel subway cars were too heavy. Since the outer leg of the Fulton St. el was left in its original state above Pitkin Ave., this service pattern would not have been possible without the multisectionals; this was probably nothing more than an attempt to capitalize on their design capabilities.
Just a footnote to the discussions (which I just found, gratefully). The 14th St.-Fulton St. service wasn't a "long local"--en route to 8th Avenue, it made all stops from Lefferts to Myrtle Avenue, then skipped to Bedford Avenue, if I recall, and making all the stops in Manhattan.
Canarsie trains also did the same rush-hour express running, with the locals terminating at Myrtle Avenue.
By the way, the current 'M' service from Broadway to Metropolitan is the duplicate of a 1950s and earlier Sunday afternoon only service that was informally known as the "Cemetery Shuttle"--it meant that riders going to visit the cemeteries didn't have to climb from the Broadway platforms all the way up those stairs to the elevated trains.
(Elevated trains ran twenty-four hours a day, so there was no need for the shuttles at other times. Myrtle-Chambers service was express from Broadway/Myrtle to the Bridge during rush hours and local days and evenings, perhaps on Saturdays, too, but I forget the latter.)
The 14th Street express service was a victim of the TA's massive "improvements" during the 1950s and early 1960s, the same approach continued today in places like Fourth Avenue in Brooklyn.
Ed Alfonsin/SUNY at Potsdam
14th St- Canarsie Line lExpresses ran Express until they caught the local, and then they stopped between the stations, while the locals stopped at the stations. edIt r
Wait a minute. The track maps on this page have only two tracks. Was (is) there a third track to allow express service, or were headways so infrequent that the express could skip a large number of stops without catching up with the local?
There were only two tracks since day 1. Maybe people had other experiences, but I never got past Morgan Westbound or Montrose Eastbound without catching a local
To avoid ths poblem, the TA proposed skip stop afew years ago (using "K", and the R-110B has a gray K ob the front sign). So they should do this next year when the bridge is out for 5 months. (This month's ERA Bulletin reports that th tunnel problem that restricts more frequent service is scheduled to be completed February, 3 months before the bridge closing)
Is there a Brown K also for recreation of the Chrystie St departure from the Jamaica?
Putting the 110B on the Canarsie would be just like bringing back the old Bluebird .
Incidentally, I seem to remember that the 14th Street "Express" was altered to stop at Lormier to connect with the GG. My dad seemed to prefer to wait for the Express, because he claimed it gave him a seat for his rush hour ride..
Many a time when I was returning from a late class at CCNY, I would get off the 14th St Local at DeKalb, and before I got to the end of the platform for exit, Pop would come through waving on the Express to Myrtle, where he would get off to backtrack to DeKalb.
No, the V actually was the replacement for the Chrystie St. K as that letter was then used to replace the AA
And I think the 14th St exp. always stopped at Lorimer.
I also remember the Lorimer stop always being an express station but there has been a couple of earlier posts identifying Bedford. I lived about an equal distance between the DeKalb Station on the 14th and the Central Av station on the Myrtle (Knickerbocker was a trifle further).
It was only in my High School and College Days, in late spring, when I would go through Myrtle/Wycoff hoping for a brief Gate/Convertable experience. So I felt Lorimer could have been a later change.
I was typing a combined Franklin/14th Street comment when the message flushed into Cyberspace, so I hope I'm not duplicating what I was saying there. (I'm doing two separate replies to avoid that again.)
In two mid-1950s maps I have (one a Hagstrom without a date but with the Culver shown as IND and no 3rd Av El south of 149th St; the other was a Union Dime Savings Bank issuance during the period the TA decided it wasn't worth its effort to print its own maps--that one has "Effective on or after June 1, 1954," because the date of the Culver recapture wasn't definite) , Lorimer is shown as an express stop. When I come across one of my 1930s BMT maps, I'll see what's on that. Possibly the express stop was added when the fare doubled in 1948 and a free transfer was instituted, but the transfer might date back to unification.
Ed Alfonsin/SUNY Potsdam
(Sorry if this partially duplicates another message from me.)
I have a copy of a 1939 BMT map that shows every station on the Canarsie Line as a local stop except where it crosses other BMT routes (Union Sq, Myrtle & Wyckoff, Braodway Junctiion, and Atlantic Ave.). Those four stops are shown as express transfer stations.
Please, also, I have a question. Is this line triple tracked along any of the subway stretch in Brooklyn or is it double tracked all the way from 8th Ave. to East New York?
Discounting thr stretch between Bdway Junc and Atlantic Ave, the line is entirely 2 tracks. The multiple tracks between the Junction and Atlantic go back to the Fulton Elevated, and of course the Manhattan direction connections to the Broadway Line, and the need for East New York Yard Leads.
The 1936 Hagstrom essentially shows the same as the map you quoted.
Also remember that this line was not complete to almost 1930 (Does anyone have its full chronology) with the stretch between 6th Ave and Montrose serving as an isolated line for several years in the late 1920's.
Oh Yes.
I almost forgot.
There was (still is?) a middle holding track accessible to the 8th Av station, that ran almost to the 6th Ave station.
And with much embarrassment
Add a holding track east of Myrtle accessible to Myrtle Ave.
These holding tracks were not set up to be switched at both ends, so the could not be used for passing.
Please forgive me. Being a post WWII vandal, my fondest memory of the Myrtle Station was running up the down escalator to "the Myrt".
When I rode the Canarsie line on Saturdays from 1967 to 1970, there would almost always be a train or two parked on that storage track between 8th and 6th Aves. BMT standards intially, R-1/9s later, but no R-42s. Sometimes the interior lights would be left on, giving the impression that we were passing an 8th Ave.-bound train. Here's the weird part: whenever I hear Alice Cooper's "School's Out for the Summer", I think of those illuminated trains on that storage track.
One train can fit into the storage track between 6th & 8th Aves. The only time one is put in these days is during the M-Fmid day hours. The lights may remain on for security reasons, a defective train line switch preventing the lights from going off, or simply an employee may be on the train. 2 trains can be laid up between Halsey & Myrtle. Trains are only laid up nights & weekends at these locations during cold weather of snow lay up plans. Trains are not normally laid up there for long periods of time because they are prone to graffiti hits.
Under the Dual Contracts:
May 1931 - 8th Ave. to 6th Ave.
June 1924 - 6th Ave. to Montrose Ave.
July 1928 - Montrose Ave. to East NY/Broadway Junction.
Beyond Broadway Junctiuon are of course, old elevated and surface routes that predate the Dual Contracts.
The 8th Ave Station looks like the IND subway because it completed when the IND was under construction. The same can be said for the Fulton and Broad Street stations on the Nassau Street line (opened on the same day as the 14th/8th Ave. station). These three stations were the last Dual Contracts stations opened in NYC.
Andy:
Thanks a lot. I knew the 6/24 date from photos of Standards being lowered into the tunnel. The other dates escaped me. I wasn't sure if the line was completed before 1930.
Marty
This is a great idea.
However, I believe the connector from the Canarsie Line to Broadway EL can only be reached from the Broadway EL local tracks. Anyone know for sure?
To me, the way to allocate two trains on a line is for an "inner" train to run local and terminate in the middle, and an outer train cover the stations to the end of the line and then run express all the way to Manhattan (or a commercial center on the way to Manhattan, such as Downtown Brooklyn) -- like the A/D and B/C on the west side. Skip stop takes too long for those on the outer sections of the line and, as you say, running a local and express to the end (D/Q) merely encourages people to jump off the local and crowd the express.
Cudahy's book claims the Broadway line was originally intended to have local service to 137th and express to 242nd (peak direction), and the 3 was originally a local, but the crossover at 96th St made this impossible as service increased. Should have built a flying junction. I lived in Kingsbridge, and its long ride from 242nd to Lower Manhattan.
Before the Lo-Vs and Hi-Vs were retired, there were express and local services on both IRT branches north of 96th St. There were frequent delays because fully half of all trains going through 96th had to change tracks north of the station, which is what the 3 is doing now during the Lenox reconstruction. When the R units began arriving, the present service pattern was implemented. Basically, all trains to and from the Lenox branch became expresses, and all trains continuing due north under Broadway became locals. (A flyover junction would have helped immensely, and was considered, but was ruled out because of cost.) It worked due to a combination of eliminating the need for any trains to switch tracks, plus new signals, plus a fleet of new cars with acceleration and braking rates far superior to the old-timers they replaced.
Say what you want about the IND: as overbuilt as it is, the flying junctions which were put in were a very wise move. Of course, had the Second System been built, there would have been many more.
What was the Second System supposed to be?
It was to consist of the Second Avenue subway you've been hearing so much about. It was alos to include a third IND tunnel under the East River from WTC(I think) and connect to Court St.(which is now the Transit Museum) and I forget if it was to include the 63rd St./Queens Blvd. connection. That idea has been kicked around I think even from that time!(We're talking around WWII!!!!)
For accurate information, go to the section on the Second Avenue subway. It will explain all the planned routes for the IND that never became real.
Here's a question: when the Queens Line has two locals heading into Manhattan, should the express trains bypass 74th St/Roosevelt during rush hours? That would prevent people from packing onto the express, speed the express trains, and still provide a reasonably short ride for those beyond Forest Hills.
If Roosevelt Avenue became a local station, then those people who live at 67 Avenue and 63 Drive would have to ride 12 stops to get to Queens Plaza. Instead they would probably backtrack to 71 Avenue and get the E and F there and pack them just as much, though almost no one would change from the #7 to the Queens line anymore. In a perfect world, there would be:
o Trains running local from Jamaica to 71 Avenue,
then non-stop from 71 Ave to Queens Plaza, then to Manhattan;
o Trains running local from 71 Avenue to Roosevelt Ave, then
non-stop from Roosevelt Avenue to Queens Plaza, then to Manhattan;
o Trains running local from Roosevelt Avenue to Queens Plaza,
and then to Manhattan.
Alas and alack, this is not to be.
It is true that the M is not very crowded in north Brooklyn & Queens. But those people who ride it pay taxes like everyone else & deserve the service. Someone in a previous post said the line is light after Myrtle-Wycoff. Knickerbocker Ave. is a very busy station. Also the J/Z isn't too crowded either. True it's another way to reach Jamaica Center, but more people squeeze onto the E. Maybe because people feel since it's express it's somehow faster, or others don't feel too comftorable going through Bushwick, East New York, etc. As for the south section, because of the B being so undependable as to regularity & on time performance, the M bails it out many a time. Quite often an M is rerouted to Stillwell Ave. due to a delay in B service. M trains sometime go to 95 St. to bail out the R line. I can tell you this is the truth since I have worked the line a a Motorman for many years, both on the Brighton & west End.
The J/Z trains get their share of crowded cars as well. The majority of the passengers get on and off between Eastern Pkwy and Woodhaven Blvd in Queens. As I said, most riders feel that they to Manhattan quicker if they transfer at Eastern Pkwy and then board the A train. I still stick to my plan. I'm sure that this will reduce the passenger load the E/F and A line in Brooklyn.
There used to be a Franklin Ave.-Fulton to Stillwell service back in the days when BMT routes were still numbered. It was the 7 (not to be confused with the Flushing #7), I believe. I may be confusing it with the "sunny summer Sunday" Coney Island specials which also used this routing. (this service also used the Sea Beach express tracks)
The south side tracks of the Manhattan Bridge were last used in 1990. George Bush was in the White House then. Admittedly, it does seem as though they've been out of service much longer. Speaking of "well, I'm not a crook" Nixon, Brian Cudahy offers this tidbit in Under the Sidewalks of New York concerning the BMT standards: "When the standards first went to work in 1915, Woodrow Wilson was president. Standards would still be hauling passengers in New York when Richard Nixon entered the White House."
It is true that the M train only serves Ridgewood. One might argue that it could be replaced by buses. But I've been to Ridgewood, and the only "major streets" are one lane in each direction with vibrant commercial and double parking. You can't get out.
My idea is to swing the G into the 53rd St Tunnel (after the 63rd allows the F to be rerouted) and into Jay St, and run it as another 6th Ave local. And, eliminate the Jog in the Jamaica line, extending the elevated direct from Cypress Hills into the Canarise line at Broadway Junction. Between them, the Canarsie line, the Crosstown Line, and the Fulton St line in a reasonable walk of a subway. This plan eliminates a long, difficult to maintain stretch of old el, an unreliable suspension bridge, and 10 stations, while shortening headways on the other lines.
That leaves two problems -- the M, and an area centered on Kosciousko St & Broadway which is beyond a reasonable walk from a train. So one could build a subway extending the M from Myrtle/Wycoff, through a station in the Kosciousko area, along Lafayette Ave into the existing junction with the G. Perhaps the Williamsburg Bridge tracks could be used for a light trolley.
If TA construciton costs were no so inflated, I wonder if the operating budget savings from not having to operate and maintain the additional stations and elevated track would be enough to pay for the two G connections, the Jamaica line connection, and the two-mile subway?
BMT,
I can't speak from experience about the other lines, but the 1 & 9 I know something about it.
The problem on the 1 & 9 is Columbia University. The trains fill up at 242nd Street and a large portion of the traffic wants to get off at 116th where the third track just goes right by. The third track only goes up to 137th (145th is the first w/out) so 242 to 145 is "Skip Stop" ... big deal two trains on the same track chasing each other. The TA thinks it's the LIRR where the EXPRESS goes first followed by the local, but on the LIRR the Express goes EXPRESS all the way to NYC.
A brief note on the "M", I have fond memories of the woodsides that ran to Polytech at Jay Street before they tore it down back to Broadway, and rode it once all the way to Metropolitian.
Mr t :^)
> Let's have a new route. From Franklin and Fulton to Stillwell. Why
> don't we use all these tracks and connections?!
There used to be such a service, running daily, then during the summer, then summer weekends, then "sunny summer Sundays", then it stopped in the mid-50s, due to lack of ridership. Unless you could tie Franklin/Fulton into another line providing a one seat ride into Manhattan (or perhaps Queens), I don't see ridership patterns changing anytime soon.
--Mark
Once again, the M line is not used as much as it's counterpart being the J/Z. The majority of the passengers board between Metropolitan Ave to Wyckoff Ave. After that it's pretty much DEAD! Most riders will transfer at Myrtle Ave for the arriving J/Z train which cuts only about 3-5 minutes since it only skips 3 short distance stations. I must admit that the J is not all to better. The line is used more during the rush hour periods than other times.
-Garfield
Does anyone know why there's a SEPTA PCC Car in the yard next to the old bathhouse on Fourth Ave and President Street in Brooklyn (right at the top of the stairs to the Union St. Subway station) and what the owner eventually plans to do with it?
It doesn't look to be in the best of shape, but it has been a welcome diversion to the morning commute for the past few weeks...
I have no idea but would sure like to see it. How far is it from the Trtansit Museum?
I wonder if they will eventually run it through the Atlantic Ave. tunnel as a part of that museum loop they were talking about. It would have to be regauged, though.
I'll betcha it's on its way to Bob Diamond's "museum" along the Brooklyn waterfront. I think he's got a few hundred feet of working trackage. I remember seeing something on him on 60 minutes a few years back. Even visited his tunnel under Atlantic Ave, too.
--Mark
I guess you could call it "his" tunnel, since he rediscovered it. What is the topography of Atlantic Ave like in that area? Next time I'm in New York, I'll have to check the area out. It's only a block or so from the Transit Museum, isn't it? I'll bet there are no traces of the tunnel portals, since it was sealed off so long ago. Are there still plans to use the tunnel as part of the "museum" line?
Anyway, if Bob does plan to run that PCC, it'll have to be regauged first.
There's nothing on Atlantic Ave to indicate that a tunnel ever existed. No portals, no exits, nothing. You enter through a manhole cover in the middle of Atlantic Ave on the corner of Court St and through a hand-excavated "cave" leading to the tunnel itself. Atlantic Ave rises a bit in that area and towards the East River starts to drop. I'll bet it's at that point (a bit east of the Brooklyn Queens Expressway) where the portals must have been.
I know Bob wanted to run a trolley in that tunnel of "his" (used to be LIRR way back when) but I'm not sure that'll ever happen. He DOES have some trolleys in a warehouse on the Brooklyn waterfront somewhere (Bush terminal? Brooklyn rail yard near 65th St where the Grumman buses were stored when they were removed from the streets of NY?) and some of his short trackage is electrified.
--Mark
On Saturday I rode out the Montalk Branch of the LIRR as far as Sayville. The trip eastbound consisted of a Penn-Jamaica-Freeport-Babylon express (fun!), connecting to the Babylon-Patchogue shuttle. On the westbound, the timetable showed the service as Patchogue-(all stops)-Babylon then express to Jamaica. I assumed we would use the Central Branch (which connects Babylon to Hicksville and passes the old Grumman station). However the diesel-drawn train used the Montalk branch, whistling by all stops from Babylon to Jamaica (via the Springfield Gardens connection).
I note that there are one or two trains a day which come from/go to the Montalk branch and stop at Mineola, meaning they must use the Central Branch. To one of our LIRR friends -- how often is the Central Branch used, and is there any way for the "public" to tell? I recall from riding it Way Back When it's a nice, and unusual ride.
I think that the Babylon line is the preferred routing. Before the Babylon line was reverse-signaled, you could usually tell from the Branch timetable which line it would take. Unless the diesel was scheduled to "pass" a local train, it would take the Central. Otherwise, the Babylon Branch seemed to be preferred.
This seems to be out the window now, as the last time I came in from out east, my diesel wrong-tracked it as far as Wantagh in order to pass a local. My guess is that now the Central is only used on weekends if there are locals in both directions just west of Babylon.
Trains to JFK
Has the LIRR ever been considered as a way to get trains from Manhattan to JFK? Is abandoned right-of-way of the LIRR ex-Rockaway branch still available? I think the duckunder of the mainline is still there. If done correctly, a service could start from Penn Station (or Grand Central if that plan is carried out) to JFK, and loop around the airport and return, only this time to Jamaica Station A reverse service from Jamaica to Penn Station/Grand Central via JFK would also be offered. With a service from JFK to Jamaica Station you could "tap" the passengers from the eastern branches of the LIRR. The service would also provide "commute" service to that area.
Is this a viable plan? I’d like to hear from those familiar with the area.
We can all speculate and fantasize on this board, but the fact remains that the Port Authority has decided that a "people mover" concept from Jamaica Station to JFK, with a branch from JFK to the Howard Beach [A] station, is all we're going to get. There will be no "one seat ride" from Manhattan to JFK.
This project is a done deal. The Port Authority has approved it; so has the mayor and governor. And it is being funded primarily through the FAA-mandated Passenger Facility Charge (PFC), that $3/ticket you pay flying to/from JFK. Engineering begins soon, and construction in the next few years. It is slated to open in the early 2000s.
At a meeting of the NY Division of the ERA a few months ago, we were briefed by the Port Authority. This project will merely delay by a few years the over-capacity crisis of the Van Wyck Expressway. It will not give New Yorkers (and visitors to NY) what is really needed. But the politicians have made up their minds, and this is the solution we'll all have to live with for a long, long time.
The FAA righ now has cash and the FTA is not quite as fortunate but the new authorization looks better. If the use transit or highway funds they would need to do a Major Investment study that could take many years. At least this way maybe there will be some service, which is better than nothing, maybee.
Jim K.,
It would be interesting to find out WHY the MTA/Port Auth brain trust didn't consider this option.
The cheepest way would be to get to IND/Howard Beach line from JFK then use ROW to LIRR Main where duck under still exists. It would cost a little more to create a way to go East to Jamaica.
While we're at it why not consider using the NY-CT ROW to get from LaGardia to LIRR/NYC or go direct to the BMT Astoria line ?
Mr t :^)
Bureaucrats and Politicians are unfortunately the gatekeepers to the money that goes for public transit works. They represent "special interest groups" and "friendly contractors" whose wants and needs ALWAYS come before the needs of the riding public. This is the way of life, and I guess we must live with it.
Political meddling, unfortunately, does not confine itself to New York either. Toronto's Sheppard line, currently under construction, has been plagued with problems from Day 1. That it is being built through a predominantly single-family neighbourhood (although it does have the busiest bus corridor in the whole city) over an Eglinton West line which could've eventually served the airport and would have passed through more working-class and higher-density neighbourhoods, is typical of political interference.
Now that the Sheppard line is well underway, there is talk that an entrance to one station, which would serve a major hospital, won't be built. Instead, people will have to cross to the other side of the six-lane intersection to get into that station. Further, another station which would initially serve a neighbourhood with low density but has the potential for massive redevelopment in the near future, is threatened from being built at all!
Plus, the Ontario provincial government, which always provided major portions of public transit funding, has, since January 1, 1998, put a stop to that, so municipalities themselves have to come up with the dough. Meanwhile, the province encourages everyone to use public transit! Typical.
[Now that the Sheppard line is well underway, there is talk that an entrance to one station, which would serve a major hospital, won't be built. Instead, people will have to cross to the other side of the six-lane intersection to get into that station.]
Hey, more business for the hospital :-)
Yes, but we have universal health care in Canada, so the more patients a hospital has, the more a province pays out and you know who the province gets the money from!!!
The London Jubilee Line extension in London has very dubious origins. Its prime purpose was to support failing property speculation in London's Docklands. The failing property speculators donated money to the then ruling Conservative Party, which is why this project was favoured over several more pressing alternatives. Although there has been a change of gevernment, the line is now essential to stop London's millenium celebrations (which the line will serve) from becoming a political laughing stock. The cost? 600 million pounds (before cost overrun) - thats about 1 billion dollars, but the real cost is that London Transport is heading for financial disaster, and there is talk of returning it to the private sector.
This past weekend, May 22nd through 25th, the CERA celebrated its 60th Anniversary. Festivities started out on Friday evening with a fine presentation by Raymond DeGroote, Jr. Raymond, with the help of others, was able to put together a slide show spanning the years from 1938 until now. Saturday was spent on a tour of the IC Metra Electric lines. Sunday, brought a visit to both Fox River Valley and Illinois Railway Museums. IRM was operating a full schedule for the weekend. I was impressed with many families with children there. Just maybe, the visit will spark the railfan in several of those youngsters. On Monday, a tour of the Northside ‘L’ lines was the treat. A visit and tour of the Skokie Shops was the first surprise. Next, a line-up of two single unit PCC’s, the odd pair 3457-3458, and a set of Skokie pan equipped MK cars were parked on number 4 (northbound express) track a Jarvis curve. We were able to photograph from our train on number 1 (southbound express) track. The final treat of the day was a trip to Kimball (Ravenswood). The two 4000’s were out and rides into the yard were given.
CERA member #1, George Krambles, attended all the functions. No bad for a man in his 80’s. A good time was had by all. I didn’t hear any complaints, although I’m not that naïve to believe there weren’t ANY complaints.
Skokie shop was quite impressive.
Thanks for the report. I looks like you had a great weekend. I would have liked to have seen the rebuilt Skokie Shops. Are they done with the construction? How many PCC double ended cars were up there?
Happy Aniversary.
I still traesure my TM book.
I rode on the last day of North Shore service in January of 1963.
Back then, IRM was temporarily located in North Chicago.
We lived in Milwaukee, up the block from the original MRK
"Devil's Elbow" off Kinickinic Ave.
You must have ridden on the last Electroliner. No, I wasn't there; I was in kindergarten when the North Shore closed up shop. There was an article on that last run in a rail magazine in 1991. I have a copy of it; it coincided with the restored Electroliner returning to "service" at the IRM 50 years to the day after making its debut on the North Shore in 1941. The article talks about its subsequent years on the Red Arrow line as a Libertyliner, and how it was restored to its old Electroliner self. In its heyday, it would cruise at 80 mph.
There were eight (8) 5-50 PCC's parked in the yard at Skokie.
They parked two (2) on the #4 NB express track (33 & 40), I think.
Most of the others are down at 61st Street yard. I don't venture down there often - you can guess why.
I was told by a CTA manager on Monday's trip, that the PCC's are to be off the property shortly.
I started a homepage covering the electric train service in the tri-state area, NJ, NY, CT. And I am looking for interior pictures of AEM-7's which Amtrak uses, ALP-44 (NJ transit) and if possible any M series that Metro North and the Lirr uses....Email me at either bosticak@shu.edu or fuzzythinker@hotmail.com...thanks
I have 3 points to go over that came up over Memorial Day.
A:Subway Cinema-Has anyone ever heard of a movie called "Undead Express", about three kids who end up in an abandoned subway tunnel in NYC(the car in the cover looks like a red IRT Lo-V) and run into trouble.
Also in the movie "Godzilla", a few errors were made. Such as Matthew Broderick pointing at the BMT Broadway line's 23rd Street stop and going to the IRT East Side's 23rd Street stop. also, is there really a Park Avenue tunnel? And for those of you who have seen it, isn't the closest suspension bridge the Williamsburg and not the Brooklyn Bridge?
B:1990 and the ADA-on Philadelphia's M-3 El cars, there are red lights above the second window that light up when the doors on the opposite side open up. Is it for deaf riders? Also concerning the door controls of subway cars, on the M-3, the station announcers will sometimes wave falshlights to signal the closing of the doors.
C:30th Street Yard-I reccomend visiting 31st and Race for a spectacular view of the 30th Street Yard in Philadelphia for views of Slamtrak trains, old and new SEPTA commuter trains and to see those RR trains coming in, especially at the hour of 7.
So, I got it all of my chest at last. Back to the old rat race.
I wonder how many of us thought about significance of Memorial (Decoration) Day as we went abou our way yesterday? Many of us traveled, visited friends and family, went to the Mall, etc. How many of us took one minute to reflect about those who made the "supreme sacrafice" to ensure the way of life we enjoy today?
I know this has nothing to do with the topic, it is only a reflection. Remember!
I know what you mean. My wife's father was killed in WWII. During Memeorial Day we talk about the difference our uniformed protectors make to our son and tell him the impotance of it. On the two days before we may goof around but yesterday was, as it always is, Memorial Day for my family.
There are two Park Avenue tunnels, as a matter of fact. Metro North runs its trains in and out of Grand Central through the tunnel north of that station. The tunnel south of Grand Central is used by the IRT Lexington Ave. line. It was part of the original mainline which opened in 1904; at 42nd St, the line turned west and headed for Times Square. The segment under 42nd St. is the shuttle today; what is now the East Side mainline shifts over to Lexington Ave. where the present Grand Central 4,5, and 6 station is.
I meant an automotive tunnel. Is there one? I don't recall hearing about it. I'm pretty up on my city geography but have never heard of such a tunnel(automotively speaking, of course).
I thought that I remember Park Ave. ducking under, or into, or around, the old Pan AM building, (or whaterver it is called today) and then re-emerges somewhere around Grand Central by 42nd St. Does it cross over 42nd St. and then return to earth?
Yes - it returns to earth at 40th Street, also connecting with an ex-NY Railways trolley tunnel to 32d Street that's right on top of the Lexington Ave. express tracks.
It's the MetLife Building now. Lucky for you, I'm also a skyscraper nut. But this is NYCSR and not NYCSR(well, you catch my drift).
The Par Ave Tunnel between 33rd St and 42nd St, which was built by the New York and Harlem RailRoad to replace a cut at Murray Hill was still used by automobiles in the late 50's. Many New York Traction books feature photos of New York Railway (I believe) trolleys negotiating the ramp between 33rd and 34th Sts.
I am almost certain it is still used today. It is frequently closed but also frequently open. It goes from 33 to 40 then connects to a ramp leading to a road that goes around the perimter of the second floor of GCT then down to Park Avenue just nort of GCT.
It's still open and in use. ALso, you can see a bit of remnants of either a station,a stairway or a passenger crossover near the middle of the tunnel. You'll likely have to slow down to see it.
--Mark
Read Par Ave as Park Ave. I believe the tunnel was locally called the "Murray Hill Tunnel"
There is a very short one on Park Ave South. This one starts around the upper 30's and goes above and around Grand Central Station and goes back down to Park Ave slightly north of GCT/Pan Am Building.
The inside indicators on the Budds are just that, just like those on the outside. This gives the conductor an indication that the doors are open. On the single-unit cars, on late-night runs the conductors used to collect fares at many stops since the cashiers quit at a certain hour. You will see the door controls on the inside of these cars close to the center door which can be accessed by the conductor outside of the cab.
I agree that 31st and Race (actually, 32nd) is a good spot to watch trains, but be careful - that wrought iron fence is quite rickety. A closer-to-the-action spot is right at the Kennedy Blvd bend, near the old Food Fair office building close to 32nd and Market. You can get up close but SEPTA personnel may shoo you away.
I was on the BSS this weekend and heard the conductor making cheap comments such as "Stop holding up progress, you in the green jacket!". I though it was funny, but can they do that?
Not only can they, they should!
I believe the conductor meant it in a humorous way. There are a few announcements made that are meant for a good guffaw.
Memorial Day is my favorite day because its the start of the trolley season, with the majority of the museums being open everyday till Labor day. Any of you can meet me Tuesdays at the Shoreline Trolley musuem where I am a tour guide/operator! I encourage all to come and bring your friends and families!
hello
I'm researching for my history paper on the NYC transit system. Can anyone name some informative books out there that I can read?
Thanks a lot!
David
Try the following:
The Subway by Stan Fischler (1997 update of hnis earlier book Uptown, Downtown)
Under the Sidewalks of New York by Brian Cudahy
722 Miles by Clifton Hood.
Just to add that Barnes and Noble bookstores have all three books and also:
By The El by Lawrence Stelter
Remember the Els are just as much a part of NYC Transit History as the subways are.
A bibliography of books on the NYC Subway, and some capsule reviews, can be found here.
Also, there's a 1 hour video called "Subway" that was produced by the A&E Networks that provides a good capsule summary of the NYC Subway in its early days. It retails for $19.95 and is likely available from your favorite hobby shop.
--Mark
Has anyone got any favorite (New York) subway movies or scenes? Or know of any movies which may have made interesting statements about the subway, people who use the subway etc.?
Why, of course. There's the original The Taking of Pelham 1-2-3, in which the #6 is a virtual co-star. I say original because they came out with an absolutely pathetic remake earlier this year, and it wasn't even filmed in New York! Who are they kidding, anyway?
Then there's The French Connection with the famous chase sequence under the West End line. How about Nighthawks, featuring the R-1/9s? The Warriors has plenty of subway footage, inaccurate as it may be. If you want to get a glimpse of a BMT Triplex train, check out Class of '44. Saturday Night Fever features a B train of R-38s as the opening titles are shown, as well as a sequence on the 4th Ave. line near the end of the film. There was also a made-for-TV movie, A Short Walk to Daylight, which dealt with the aftermath of an earthquake in New York and featured a subway train off the track (I haven't seen this one.) An HH train of R-1/9s is briefly seen in Where Were You When the Lights Went Out? If you remember the East Coast blackout in November of 1965, this movie is about just that. The Incident, with none other than Ed McMahon, Donna Mills, Martin Sheen, and Beau Bridges, features a train of World's Fair Lo-Vs on the #4 line.
Well that's just naming a few.
Carli also asked about movies that made a "statement" about the NYC subway.
Two that Steve B mentioned, the Warriors (however inaccurate) and The Taking of Pelham 1-2-3, also sort of fit this category for me.
That's because neither used the subway as a prop or picturesque urban backdrop, as many films do. Instead, they both dramatized people actually USING the subway, in unique if nefarious ways.
Pelham was a subway hijacking, with much of the action taking place on and around the train -- an early, savvier NYC version of an "Airport" skyjacking movie or the later "Speed." Yes, the 6 was truly a co-star. The human actors were darn good too, by the way.
In The Warriors, street-gang armies basically used subway trains as armored personnel carriers to move between friendly and enemy turf, that is, between neighborhoods --- an original, if horrifying, vision that stood the subway's useful connection between neighborhoods on its head.
Both movies showed (albeit darkly) how central the subways are to New York life ... even if it was lowlife.
Another comment. Though Carli didn't ask about this, two television images of the NYC subway, both of the "picturesque urban backdrop" variety, also stick in my head, just because I've seen them a million times.
One is the shot in the opening credits of the long-defunct 1970s sitcom "Welcome Back, Kotter," which showed an el train rolling by the camera, decorated with the multicolored graffiti murals so common in those days. (Sorry if this is a sore point, folks ... I know that paint was very destructive, even if some folks thought it was pretty as well.)
The other image is probably actually several similar ones: Seems like the television ads for every television news show in NYC always include at least one shot of a subway running at ground level with the Manhattan skyline in the background. I think it's often the 7 train in western Queens.
You know, I'd love to have a comprehensive list of all the great subway-intensive movies. It would make a great film festival. Or I could just videotape all the shorter subway cameo appearances and make a big "highlight reel"!
"Money Train" has a lot of neat subway stuff, too, even if the rest of the movie is intellectually and morally stupid (and even if the climatic derailed-train-rolling-through-the-tunnel scene was rather badly faked) However did they get the cooperation of the NYCTA for that movie, anyway? Between the torching of the token clerks and the power-mad transit director, I'm surprised they'd even give the director the time of day. (Although I suppose Pelham 1-2-3, Warriors, etc. weren't much better.) Speaking of which, I heard somewhere that there no longer is a money train. Is this really true? If it is, those new cars they ordered a few years ago for it must have been a major waste.
Also, didn't one of the cable movie channels do a series or bunch of shorts on subway life recently?
Does anyone recall any TV commercials that feature subway scenes? I
remember a Levi's 501 jeans commercial back in the mid 1980's that
showed a group of people, wearing the jeans, "hanging out" on what
appeared to be an elevated station stairway. Also, in that same
commercial, there was a (underground) subway scene that lasted only
a split second.
Recently, there was also an IKEA commercial in which they redecorated the interior of the train to "IKEA standards". It was actually not a bad imitation of a New York subway train--kind of a cross between a rebuilt R-32 and an original R-32 (all stainless-steel, beige and gray interior, but with straps and the fans).
There was a movie one time on TV that I think was about how the Guardian Angels got started. The reason why I think it was about the Guardian Angels because I actually heard Curtis Sliwa talk about it.
In this movie a group of kids are working at hamburger joint when one of their fathers gets mugged on the subway. This hamburger joint was at a place where an elevated train station was directly over an underground station. Does anyone know where such a place is? Is there a place where an elevated line runs directly over an underground line.
If this one was in Da Bronx, try 161st St. Yankee Stadium
Queenz, 74th St/B'way-Roosevelt, Court Square, Queenz Plaza
Brooklyn, Myrtle-Wyckoff, Eastern Pkwy/B'way Junct., Franklin Ave/Fulton St., New Utrecht Ave/62nd St., Maybe B'way on the G line comes close to either Hewes St or Lorimer St. on the M line. If I missed any other, My bust. Also that movie was called "We're Fighting Back" which aired on CBS.
Try THE WARRIORS
HAS the R-27's , R-46, and R-40's
Filmed at CONEY ISLAND , 96 st station 1,2,3,9, terminal of #5 in the Bronx. Union Square sta NR, 4,5,6, L
I don't remember seeing any R-40s or R-46s in The Warriors, but I may have overlooked them. You can see an R-12 heading a #4 train at Union Square very briefly.
Station platform scenes at 96th St. were filmed at Hoyt-Schermerhorn. Since IND/BMT equipment was used for the entire film, they couldn't have used any IRT stations, unless the gang members were to stand around waiting for a train. This doesn't happen; they just happen to go scrambling into stations (and jumping turnstiles) just as a train pulls in.
"Ghost" was a good Subway movie. The inital and final scenes took place under Eastern Parkway Broadway Junction (a mega-elevated area if there ever was one), I believe. And there were the scenes where one ghostly guy walks through the subway cars teaching things to Patrick Swayze.
"Planet of the Apes" had a sort of subway scene. When the protagonists of the story realize that some of the inhabitants of whatever planet they landed on are hiding in the 59th and Lexington Subway station, they realize that the "far-off" planet is Earth. (Or something like that in the plot...)
I forgot about Money Train. Most of it was filmed on a 4000-foot long set in California, with an unusually high roof even by New York standards. There aren't too many actual subway scenes. Two are the opening setting at Wall St., which is actually Union Square in disguise, and 33rd St.
If you go to the movie goofs section in the internet movie database, you'll note that someone commented that the train which stops at 33rd is a 4, and since the 4 is an express, this is wrong. Not during the late hours, it isn't. The 4 replaces the 6 south of 125th St. during late nights, and does indeed run local over its entire route.
The actual money train itself is a modified R-21.
You heard it hear first, folks. SEPTA's TWU is at it again. They have set a strike deadline for Monday June 1st. And they say that this time there will be no extensions. Now they've had about three months to hash out an agreement. At this point SEPTA should line them along Market Street and tar and feather them. This is ridiculous!!!!
Moving along, I'd just like to add that another location to see the 30th St. yards is on 32nd St. from Winter St. to Arch St. Just tkae the El or trolley to 30th, get off and walk west to Arch, go up and you'll pass the armory, a small sports field a long dragon mural and then come along the yard.
Arch is north of and parallel to Market, so I guess one should walk west to 32 St. then north to Arch St.
Of course you can do what I do, and look out of the 14th floor window of the New Tower Hall at Drexel, of course, though, it is currently quite an expensive view...
West on Market, past 32nd, bare right on Lancaster Ave. to 33rd, at armory, than north on 33rd.
As far as I’m concerned, the SEPTA Union has lost its bargaining position. It seems they have done little to negotiate with management, and have tried to project an image of "not taking the public hostage". They even got the mayor and city council to "buy in". If they haven’t got a contract they can live with in three months, whose fault is it.
Although most transit agencies are top-heavy in management that seems to waste more money than they put to "good use", the unions must face-up to the fact that they must concede a bit of the "gravy train".
Productivity, work rules, disability leave, and the part-time workers issue must be addressed.
If the transit industry was making it on the revenue they collect from the farebox and had excess to go around it would be a different story. But, transit workers feed from the public trough. If these workers were in the private sector, how long would they last, and how far would their demands go?
They were making threats in January. It's May and they still have no contract!!!! Here's an idea. SEPTA will stick behind it's lastest(and as far as I'm concerned, final) compromise. They strike. Let 'em! If they'll show me the brake from the throttle, they'll have a new driver.
I doubt the higher-ups of the union have even told the regular workers(who I don't think are on the Milking Blvd. express) who just want(and have) a fair contract agreement. What is Stephen Brookens doing? What is wrong with this man? You have a fair agreement! They make it sound like SEPTA wants them to wear chains to work.
From the looks of things, Steve Brookens ought to start using his dental benefits one of these days instead of shelling out his hard-earned money on that ridiculous hairdo. But seriously...
I am not anti-union, but the TWU is absolutely bananas. I ride the system every day and for every nice, courteous driver there are at least seven malcontents. For $17.72 an hour, they could at least be courteous. Just last week I rode with a new (to me) female driver who only knew gas and brake and how to put each of the pedals to the floor. I'm not prone to motion sickness but after that ride I was looking for the barf bag. I told her when I left that I hoped she didn't drive her own car like that. "You don't understand how these big things run - you have to drive 'em rough", she told me.
My solution would be to fire each and every one of the disgruntled bunch who didn't report after a strike was called and bring in replacements. For $17.72 an hour plus benefits, I'm sure there would be no difficulty in the replacement of the lot.
I'm not an anti-union advocate either. However, there has been absolutely no "buy-in", by the transit workers union leadership or members, that they are part of the solution to declining ridership and public perception. Remember, public perception defines whether the transit authority does a good job a providing service.
The sole purpose of any transit authority has got to be getting customers from point A to point B in a safe, fast, and convenient manner at the lowest possible cost. The front line interface - drivers, operators, cashiers and supervisors must be the providers of this service.
Here in Chicago, for every one conscious front line employee, you have five whose attitude ranges from don’t give a damn to downright rude and nasty. Furthermore, I’d venture to guess if these indifferent’s lost their job they wouldn’t have the talents needed to perform in any other workplace.
234 and the management will be at loggerheads long after all of us have moved on the big system in the sky. Thus it has been, thus it shall always be.
The latest genius move on the part of Brookens and Co. is to strike at noon tomorrow (Mon) and leave the vehicles wherever they happen to be for SEPTA management to go out and collect them. If there could be a more patron-unfriendly way of doing things... but then again, with Brookens the idiot in charge, this is no surprise.
There used to be some professionalism in the operation of a transit vehicle. While threads of it are still there, the attitude today is vastly different from 20-30 years ago. I guess it's a job, not an adventure. What a shame.
If 234 is stupid enough to do that, then maybe SEPTA should charge Brookins and the rest of 234's executive board with some type of crime.
Maybe all the Pennsylvania transit agencies should lobby as a group to abolish the closed shop. Maybe this would bring the idiots at the stupid unions (read TWU) to whatever senses they might have.
The TWU is only hurting themselves by striking every four years in the long run.
Think about it. Every time they go on strike they lose, I'd say, a good 20-50 riders daily. By losing riders they lose money in their salary. If they didn't go on strike, they wouldn't lose so many riders, SEPTA would have more money which they could happily put in their workers pay and pension.
I have heard many a complaint around the water cooler as to why there isn't some SEPTA alternative(i.e.- another transit company in town).
Are there any cities in the USA that have more than one transit entity, so if the good-for-not-much union leader decides to leave 400,000 people stranded miles from home, they can find another way?
BTW, the stranded story is TRUE! SEPTA took us to work this morning but will not bring us back home.
Guess I'd better get to work on that old Taurus that's been sitting on the street since November. Watch out I-95! Here comes Jack!!!!!
Taking the passengers to work in the morning and leaving them stranded for the evening rush.
Sounds like the story about the late Chicago, Aurora & Elgin, who on July 3, 1957 stranded their few remaining loyal riders at Des Plaines Avenue. They got permission to abandon and within 30 minutes, did just that!
I've often wondered why, when SEPTA goes on strike, other private
bus companies, such as the ones that provide the casino trips to
Atlantic City, don't pitch in and volunteer to "take over" some of
SEPTA's most heavily traveled routes, and routes that are not served
by the regional rail lines. Also, since New Jersey Transit buses
serve Philadelphia's Greyhound Bus Terminal, you would think that
there would be some good samaritans who would offer to provide a few
trips to 69th Street Terminal from Center City during the morning and
evening rush hours.
The 6 o'clock news tonight showed a couple of enterprising folks at Olney Terminal running their vans as "substitute transit". None of those shown would discuss price.
I think that's the main consideration. Will it pay - probably not. To say nothing of PUC certificates, insurance, etc etc. It becomes an issue of who wants the hassle. Also, most SEPTA surface rides involve a trip with a transfer, usually to rapid transit or the subway- surface. While it might work for some charter operator to take on routes like 17, 21, 33, 42, 48 (one-seat trips to Center City), who would want 14, 18, 20, 26, 52, 54, 79, all heavy carriers which depend on an el or subway connection to get folks where they want to go?
Your idea is called Union Busting. Obviously, you are not a union member.
You are correct that I am not a union member. I was at one time and I come from a family of union members. There is a difference, however, and here it is.
The TWU Local 234 has every privilege to strike. As a user of SEPTA, I may not be happy about this, but I accept it. As a user of SEPTA, I expect the action to be settled without sigificant costs being foisted upon me and other customers (or taxpayers). A quite generous contract proposal has been put on the table. With any such offer, there are concessions. SEPTA is trying to stay afloat and wishes to modernize some archaic work rules. 234 wants nothing of it and wants to keep on going as "business as usual", regardless of costs, etc because the popular misconception is that the money will be found.
The last time Phila had a transit strike, '95, it lasted two weeks. 234's membership never got back what it lost in those two weeks. Riders found other ways to get to work and transit ridership plummeted. The vicious circle began - fewer riders, service cuts, fewer riders, etc. Does 234 win in this scenario? I don't think so.
Brookens has not shown any contract proposals to the membership and hasn't gotten any feel for how the vast majority of them feel about the various terms on the table. He is more concerned about getting his face on camera and the front page. Why would he not want a zero tolerance policy on drugs and alcohol for drivers? Who is he trying to protect? Certainly not the riders, and he has shown his callous disregard of "his" passengers especially through the calling of a noon time strike that stranded many.
Have you ridden on a SEPTA vehicle lately? Do these operators drive their personal vehicles this way? Too many of those behind the wheel have no regard for the riders and no fear of any disciplinary action against them. Is this what transit should be all about? At one time it was a noble and respected profession - now it's hardly that.
No sir, we're not dealing with a "union" in the traditional sense, we're dealing with "Brookens' Bad Boys (and girls)" who don't seem to give a rat's patoot about the job they should be doing and want to grab the bucks and go. That, to me, is more of a gang of hoodlums.
While Im a transit worker and a member of TWU local 100 I feel that the riding public will never understand our pay and benefits. Yes the pay and benefits are good but its not a easy job driving a bus and picking up thousands of people, dealing with traffic and not getting into an accident. Up to 30% of new hirees dont make or pass training and the probation period. Another 10% just plain quit because its just to stressful. The way we get paid is different also. While many in private industry are salaried we are hourly. Academy bus operators for example get paid by the trip and not the hour thus effectively getting paid about 6 or 7 dollars an hour.
That all being said its no excuse for a operator to come to work just for the money either. We should take pride in our job and sincerly be helpful and kind to our customers. I can say that in NY its getting better every year because of transits constant reminders for us to be more customer friendly. But, if a transit worker in a particular city gets fired or loses his job, where does he go to make a living? I feel strikes should be a last resort, a big threat thats used as a extreme final resort. Considering all the strikes 234 has had since 1974 and never really getting anything in return maybe they should try to work with Philadelphia in increasing ridership and then trying to get whatever they want.
Management can be very unfair with the workers also thus workers having a easier time in voting in favor of a strike. NYC transit has calmed down in the last few years especially since ridership is up. So just dont hate all of us and like any other profession in the world because of a few bad apples dont just paint us all with a wide paintbrush thinking we are all bums. In fact, any transit worker who comes on this page is more than just "here for the beer"!
I wonder what the racial ethnic breakdown of Local 234 is, relative to the city as a whole. Here's some information from a cross-tabulation of census of population data (pay by education by race and hispanic origin) that may surprise you.
Like many honkeys, I once believed that in the post civil rights era black people were complaining out of habit. Ten years of looking at hard numbers changed my mind. In NYC, minorities ought to pursue their education, since the average black high school graduate earns more than the average black high school dropout, the average black who goes to college earns more than the average black high school graduate.
But they would be better off changing their skin tone. The average white high school dropout earned more than the average black high school graduate. The average white high school graduate earned more than the average black with some college or a community college degree. The average white with some college or a community college degree earned more than the average black college graduate. That was true in 1980. And in 1990. And it was true of Latinos and Asians also -- even when adjustments were made for English Language skills.
Looking at industry by industry patterns, it appears the reason is certain whites have access to privileged jobs which pay much more than other jobs which require equal qualifications. The higher costs are passed on to the customers -- so usually the government (ie school custodians), a monopoly company (ie utilities), a monopoly union (ie construction), or a mafia is involved. Otherwise, customers would avoid paying for the higher pay by taking their business elsewhere. Most whites don't benefit -- they pay -- but virually no non-whites have these positions. I dubbed the pattern "White Welfare." And if you ain't getting it, you pay for it in higher taxes, higher prices, and diminshed services. You generally have to know someone or something to get in, and the knowledge is passed around in certain neighborhoods amongs certain people.
Here in NYC, a deal was cut in the early 1960s to let members of certain public employee unions live outside the city. Members of those unions earn one hell of a lot more than other city employees. But NYC transit was not a part of that deal, and lo and behold you end up with a significantly Black and Latino union with a black leader. And while NYTCA workers continue to better paid, they have been working and showing up sober since the 1980s. Most credit union confrontation by David Gunn. Perhaps the retirement of a bunch of privileged Archie Bunkers had something to do with it. Meanwhile, LIRR workers, predominantly white, earn more, do less, and sneer at the customers.
The Giuliani Administration doesn't see the White Welfare forest for the trees, but it has been bumping into the trees. Automatic no-bid contracts for school bus companies. The mafia at the Fulton Fish market. The commercial garbage cartel. Etc. Ironically, White Welfare recipients are among the Mayor's strongest supporters.
So what is the racial/ethnic breakdown of SEPTA? Is it a privilege job that you have to know someone to get? And is that knowledge passed around among certain people in certain neighborhoods? Or does the breakdown of SEPTA employment now reflect the diversity of the city, and therefore respect the needs of city residents? By the way, one characteristic of White Welfare recipients is that they all drive.
Let's not jump to conclusions about race and income. I don't doubt your conclusions, that whites tend to outearn blacks of higher (let alone equal) educational levels. Where I disagree is in assuming this gap is due to a white "monopoly" on high-paying union jobs such as school custodians or construction. Other factors have to be considered as well. For instance, age could be part of the story. It's only been in the past 25 years or so that blacks have gone onto college in significant numbers. As a result, there may be a disproportionate percentage of black college graduates still in their 20s and 30s, who haven't yet hit their peak earning years. They would be earning less than white college graduates simply because the latter tend to be older - in fact, these young black college graduates may earn less on average than middle-aged white workers without college educations (keep in mind that the average age of the black population is notably younger than the white population). Another consideration is that black college students tend to gravitate toward relatively lower-paid areas such as education and social work. I suspect that the vast majority of engineering and computer science graduates in New York (and elsewhere) are white, and these are higher-paying fields. Finally, a third factor, one specific to the city, is that a fairly large proportion of CUNY graduates are black - and let's face it, whether deserved or not, CUNY has a wretched reputation and that surely doesn't help its graduates' earning power.
CUNY and the GED (the idea that not all college and high school educations are equal) is an issue.
I anticipated the age factor, however, and limited the sample to those age 25 to 44 (in 1990). Those in that age group should not have been as affected by pre-1965 discrimination. Among women, the wage gap for those in this age group had pretty much closed.
Not to say that conditions haven't improved. Not all the way, though
To bring this back to a transit-related topic, here are a few facts for your consideration. I do not know the racial breakdown of TWU 234. I have been told it is more than 50% African-American. Here is what I can tell you.
SEPTA does not have any geographical restrictions on the residence of its workers. I do know that the bus garages in the city do not provide parking for employees and this is a big bone of contention in the neighborhoods in which the garages are located. The conclusion to be drawn here is that few drivers take transit to work. This means that (a) they live far enough away from the garage that they have to drive and (b) the lack of good transit, especially in overnight hours, precludes its use by drivers. (Midvale garage, the newest in the city, is set way back from the street, and would be difficult to use even if one did want to use transit to get to it.)
As a regular user of transit, my personal beef with some drivers is their lack of professionalism, courtesy and consideration. Too many drivers operate the vehicles as if they were going to fires. Attitude is very detectable. There are many good and courteous drivers out there (when my route is running, I get a trip home every day that is a joy to ride since the operator is very nice and pleasant). Yes, it's a tough job dealing with the public, traffic, etc, but don't you know this going in?
Not everyone is cut out to be a transit worker, just as not everyone can work on the bomb squad. At nearly $18 an hour plus benefits, though, it is a good living, no matter how you look at it. And, as a customer, I do expect high standards for alcohol and drug testing and zero tolerance is certainly what I would expect. We live in an age of little self-control/responsibility and, if I'm going to trust my well being to transit, I expect a safe trip.
As a child, I always wanted to drive a transit vehicle. I thought it was the best job in the world. Academics and other pursuits got in the way and I didn't follow this goal. It seems to me that the transit worker of today is not of the same caliber that his/her counterpart 30-40 years ago was. Why is this?
Why should the only people who can earn $50,000 be those fortunate enough to have gone to college or have learned a trade? Does anybody who enters a career expect what the worst things of the job are going to be? Are todays police officers, school teachers and polictians as good as the ones 40-50 years ago? Read a newspaper and find out.
In many ways, I agree. We've become more dangerous, less patient and a lot less responsible as a whole in society over time. To me it's not a good trend. Who knows who is carrying a weapon, etc etc.
Unfortunately, labor unions take great pains to protect bad workers too often. These workers stay in jobs that they really shouldn't have. In the vein of transit, the operators with attitudes are the ones who unfortunately you remember, and then you generalize and decide that they're all bums. The treatment they get follows accordingly.
I don't begrudge anyone making a living. I do dislike handing something to someone on the premise that they've "earned" it by merely showing up. Workers in any capacity should take pride in what they do and do their best. I've heard all sorts of cries from people here in Phila that SEPTA is merely sticking it to the TWU and the drivers are the way they are because of oppressive management. Do operators pilot their vehicles like kamikazes because they have beefs with their supervisors? Is this fair to the customers? As one, I think not.
I use SEPTA nearly every day (when it's running). I have had drivers pass by me because they didn't feel like stopping. I recall one driver who seemingly would try to break something so he could avoid making the trip (he would constantly stop at the last local stop before the route became express, where a repair truck was usually parked for spot fix-its, and waste time having the mechanic care to something that wasn't broken). There were many other operators who would be rude to passengers, use profanity, refuse to show their ID badges to people who were going to complain, you name it. Given the opportunity to make $18/hour plus benefits (certainly no one's going to get rich this way), I do believe there are plenty of folks who are out of work or underemployed who might really want to do this.
I disagree that people don't know what they're getting into when they enter a profession. They may not know everything, but I think they have a good idea. Any seasoned transit rider knows what operators must deal with constantly. And, again, if the TWU would encourage its members to treat the public as if we were customers of a service, we might hold them in a little higher esteem.
And, on top of all this, TWU 234, in the person of its top idiot, Brookens, took to the media yesterday telling riders to find their alternates for the morning trip since it wasn't worth it to ride in on SEPTA only to get stuck. What a nice guy!
I hate to say it, but if this bunch is left in charge, SEPTA could be in the history books in a little more time than it took the CA & E. Traffic wasn't so bad on the homebound commute this evening and it traditionally falls off after Memorial Day (with a big drop after schools start to close in mid-June). Who's the genius who's trying to prove a point and bring a region to a standstill?
Yes, Brookens and company came to their senses a little. Instead of just leaving the vehicles where they were at high noon, operators were instructed to complete runs and then head back to the barns. It was a strange sight in Center City watching all the out of service buses zipping through the streets.
234 has demonstrated that it doesn't give the proverbial rat's patoot about its riding public, and for this violation of the "social contract", the 234 membership should be very ashamed. Of course, this is viewed as their birthrights to do whatever it takes to get a fair contract for themselves.
As much as I support transit and organized labor, while I willl miss SEPTA and I will be inconvenienced for the duration, I'd certainly be very happy if TWU 234 went the way of the dinosaur. It wouldn't bother me in the least if the lot of them were fired and people who really wanted to work and serve the riding public would step forward for the $17 plus per hour and generous benefits.
234 has shown over the years its stupidity in its support of issues which it cannot win. Its membership lost 14 days of pay in '95 and in my opinion has never gained this back. Brookens is an absolute nitwit who wants to win power and prestige, and he'll never get it any other way with his neanderthal looks and thinking process. This is why transit in Phila is in the shape it's in.
Add to the strike fallout is that SEPTA's web site is also "on strike" as of 12:40 PM 6/2. www.septa.com gets a "no dns" error from Netscape.
Also, 234 is a bunch of self-centered egotists. Fire 'em all and start over!
As of this AM (6/3 @00:51), the SEPTA website was up again, with the latest update on the stupid 234 strike. My prior comment as to what should be done stands.
At least SEPTA is making to effort to at least PRETEND to care about the rider(if they actually don't).
Next week, non-union managers will attempt to operate the BSS and the El. Count on 10-minute headways on a busy day during the strike.
One can still hear and see trains in the tunnels and on the El but as of yet, aren't picking up passengers, just keepin' em warm for when the strike ends and Brookens is taken away by space aliens(Hopefully,
the aliens are reading this).
"Next week, non-union managers will attempt to operate the BSS and the El. Count on 10-minute headways on a busy day during the strike."
Isn't that how the Malbone Street Wreck of 1918 happened?
Are you warning of a Market St. Wreck?
The last thing SEPTA needs is a derailment.
If you thought riding the El was an ordeal before.......
Of course, the operator on the '90 wreck at 30th Street tested positive for drugs, was suspended, appealed, was reinstated, and returned to the line. By now he could be an instructor. So anything's possible! All thanks to TWU.
The operation of the el/subway/subway-surface would be a disaster. TWU folks would surely sabotage the line in any way possible to cause problems which could then be blamed on the inexperienced operators. Besides, the traffic jams, gridlock, etc just haven't happened. I'd like my bus back, it's inconvenient, my lifestyle's affected by it, but I ain't dying either. Just as in '95, people are coping and getting around. The days of crippling transit strikes in Phila are long gone.
Unfortunately, Brookens and his crew have not yet gotten the message. I think they're all ready to go down with the sinking ship they call TWU 234.
I don't think anyone will win if SEPTA tries to operate service on the EL, BSS, or Subway Service. Although many of the managers/supervisors should have had some experience in train/streetcar operation, this is just not good policy and would give the TWU "ammunition" against SEPTA.
The word SCAB is not well received by the general public.
Nice to find a guy who dislikes Brookens as much as I do. The man looks like something out of Dark Horse Comics(and don't get me started on his eloquence-or lack thereof).
Sorry to put the man down personally, but just seeing him on the TV makes me want to kick something.
I don't know what SEPTA is goin to do. I hope they ALL get fired promptly. Now there are some who do their jobs weel and as I said before, I wonder if EVERY man and woman working for SEPTA and is in TWU 234 knows the WHOLE story. I doubt that they are all as greedy and cro-magnon as Brookens.
Part of the problem with the strike is that many TWU members don't know what SEPTA has put on the table. Brookens and his henchmen haven't bothered to share it with them. Thus, many are on strike for no apparent reason to themselves.
I, too, would like to avoid personal attacks on Brookens, but he is such a caricature that it's hard to avoid them. This aside, I don't believe he is acting in the best interests of his membership and is merely basking in his extended 15 minutes of fame. It's a shame that nearly 500,000 riders have to suffer because of this.
A solution for Brookins is a simple one: JAIL!!!! And expulsion form the union for conduct against the membership of TWU 234.
As an aside, why doesn't SEPTA try for binding arbitration in labor (contract) disputes. The Baltimore MTA has had it since 1970, with both good and bad for both sides. The only problem has been that in 10 of the last 12 contracts the arbitrator has ruled for more than the union or management wanted. Recently, however, the contract has been renewed without resorting to binding arbritration.
Speaking of that stupid SEPTA strike. How do you guys and gals think about letting supervision run the MARKET FRANKFORD and BROAD ST lines? Also speaking about the subways. I pose a question. I get a chance now and then to ride the FRANKFORD EL also ride the NYC subway system. It seems that the Frankford El cars travel at a faster rate then the average NY train. Would anybody agree with this and has the MTA slowed there trains down over the last few years? And if they have why would they do this when today people want to get where they are going as fast as poosible.
I always thought that both SEPTA's rapid lines were much more rapid than NYC's. I wasn't sure if this was just perception, and I've asked a few folks about this who haven't been able to definitively answer.
On the subject of your question, I think operation with managers is not a good idea. There's too much room for TWU sabotage which will only tend to support TWU. SEPTA insists that it would only use instructors, folks who came up thru the ranks with motor experience, etc, but I wouldn't be so sure. I don't foresee a Malbone St wreck situation but I'm not sure I'd rush out to ride either. If you want thrill rides, spend a day at Great Adventure.
I truly think SEPTA's suggestion of this operation is one of those back-pocket threats that at least will keep TWU guessing a little. So far, the region's been coping, and maybe we don't need rapid transit service for the duration. The scary part of all this is that will riders come back?
Dave!
If you're interested I just went to Current Operations to check for a date on the creation of the Franklin Shuttle.
The photo return in the heading was:
1.R32 at 168 on J,
2.R32 at 168 on J.
3. Door of the WF Flushing Car, and
4. Brooklyn Bridge Station Crest.
Mind you, this is not a complaint. I'm only trying to figure out why Diet Pepsi has me seeing double.
My knowledge of the NYC subway system, its older routes and equipment, has always been very limited. Please explain to me the significance of Low-V vs. Hi-V. Did this equipment originate with the IRT or the BMT?
Jim:
There was quite a discussion of Lo-V within the past month. You should be able to locate easily if you change your display criteria.
Basically it deals with the Voltage at the Operators controller. Is it the 600+/- line voltage (Hi-V) or a lower Battery Voltage control circuit (Lo-V). I believe all present equipment is Lo-V for safety (cup of java spilled in the cab), and that the first Lo-Vs were IRT.,
Sorry Jim it's not as easy as I thought. I just tried to find the start of the original thread. I guess it was in early April. Hopefully one of the technical experts will pick up on this and furnish more detail.
Yes, I just tried to go back into the archives and had "no luck". Anyway, I'm sure there was a huge amount of equipment built for the private companies before the "R" class series began.
I'm just trying to build my knowledge.
Jim
I just did some more looking into past history
If the First IRT Lo-Vs were the 1915 Steinways by PSCo (4025-4036)
I think the BMT wins Lo-V honors with their 1914 AC&F Standards (2000-2099)
The first steel cars built for the IRT were Hi-Vs. It's safe to assume that the Composites (metal trucks and frames, wooden bodies) were Hi-Vs, too. The 600-volt track voltage was fed directly through the controller - a potentially dangerous setup. The motorman had to peg up the controller one notch at a time as the train gathered speed to avoid an overload and possible fire. Only the IRT ever had Hi-Vs.
All subway equipment built after 1915 was classified as Lo-V. In this setup, only 32-volt battery power is fed through the controller. Such equipment is much safer to operate, plus the controller sequences automatically as the train gathers speed. Lo-V controllers have three notches: switching, series, and parallel or multiple. Multiple can be thought of as "Drive" on a car equipped with an automatic transmission. The motorman can swing the controller into multiple from a dead stop, and it takes care of the rest. Since those old timers had no speed governors, well, you can imagine what an express run was like. Pure excitement!
In addition to IRT equipment from the 4100s thereabouts on, all BMT subway cars (standards, Triplexes, multisectionals, Bluebird, Zephyr) and the IND R-1/9s were Lo-Vs. Ditto for all postwar equipment.
Another difference was the running gear. Prewar cars had spur-cut bull and pinion gears on the motor trucks. This is what caused the groaning, moaning, and whining (and resultant rise in musical pitch) as the train gathered speed. Most automobiles with manual transmissions have spur-cut reverse gears. That's why you hear that loud moan when backing up. Spur-cut gears are cheaper to manufacture, but are also noisy.
All postwar cars, beginning with the R-10s, have helical-cut bull and pinion gears. Such gears have teeth which are cut diagonally across, as opposed to horizontal teeth on spur-cut gears. While being more costly to produce, helical-cut gears are much quieter, which is why the postwar cars don't moan and groan and whine as they accelerate. (OK, there is some whine, but not nearly as loud as on the old timers.) Forward speeds on manual transmissions also have helical-cut gears.
I've never seen voltage ratings for the old BMT equipment.
Do you know if any of the "Gates", "C-Types", or "Q-Types" were Lo-V.
I can't say for sure, but since most, if not all, wooden elevated equipment predates steel subway equipment, and since Lo-Vs didn't appear on the scene until 1915, it's safe to assume that wooden el cars were Hi-Vs. Granted, many open platform el cars were rebuilt into closed platform MUDC cars. This includes the C and Q units. I'll have to take a close look at the controllers on the Q units at the Transit Museum the next time I'm there.
I was walking down the western end of Northern Blvd today near Queens Plaza and I noticed a tremendous amount of digging going on. It looked like some kind of subway work. It seems to me that is approximately where the E & F train are running. Does anyone know what's going on there ?
Thanks
bfbyrne
My recollection of Queens Geography is a bit foggy, but I believe you're talking about the connection between the 63rd St Tunnel Line and the Queens Blvd Main Line that has been under construction for some time now.
I didn't realize that project was underway. I heard many proposals concerning using the 63 street tunnel for different things. Will the E or F train be routed this way into Manhattan ?
No. Currently, the E and F will continue to operate as they do now. There are proposals to run the Q through this new connector out to Forest Hills, as well as a new V route from 179th St., via 63rd to 6th Ave., to 2nd Ave. or Broadway-Lafayette. Again, these are only proposals; there is nothing etched in stone.
Steve B,
One of the earlier proposals was for the "F" to use the 63rd St tunnel to divert some of the traffic off of Ave of Americas. The E/F trains are packed while the BMT Broadway line has room for more customers.
Phase two is to finish the lower pair of tubes at 63rd for the LIRR.
Mr t__:^)
Then I assume the Q or V train will run thru Queens on the E/F tracks to Jamaica. One question I have is do these tracks have the capacity to have additional trains running down them ?
I believe the capacity constraint was the tunnels to Manhattan, not Queens Blvd itself.
-Hank
I've a few points to go over. First, I'd like to know the average(if there is one) length for subway/el platforms in NYC. I figure that they're around 600'-650', depending on which division you're riding.
Was there some type of project that required the lengthening of the eastbound platform at the 13th St. stop in Philly? I don't see why that happened.
Also concerning the third rail. I know that there are always a few places where it has to break, such as at a switch, etc. In my town, there is a section that seems to be about half the length of an El car(or around 27 feet) that is broken off. How much space can there be? Do all the cars have to make contact or just a few?
Also, doesn't it bother anyone that on the El the third rail is placed right under the platform? I'm not so sure that's such a hot idea.
And the issue with the pillars. Now I'm sure that in NYC, you guys have streets as straight as telephone cord running under your els but right on Market St. at 48th, the place where it crosses Market, the pillars are directly in the middle of the street! Even careful drivers have to be extra cautious when manuvering around this obstacle. Gee!
And another story from a new SEPTA user I know. This person complains of SEPTA's high fares. to ride the system and get a trasnfer, one must part with two George Washingtons(or one Thomas Jefferson). Fares aren't this high elsewhere. What is SEPTA doing with this money. Or rather, was doing?
600'-700' sounds like a good estimate for the IND. You have 7-10 cars of 67' long cars so given an extra ten feet per end of train and that's 697'. Of course we've got the R-44/46's, but I won't get into that. I'm surprised there's that much space underground considering this is New York. On the IRT, the cars are shorter(about 3' shorter than cars for the MF el), about 51'. A ten car train is 510' and one of the lines(I'm pretty sure the '7') has 11 car trains so that's 561', so a little shorter than your guess for the length.
I feel for you guys in Philadelphia with the strike thing. What if that happened here! I shudder to think of it:)
13th St eastbound was lengthened when the 1234 Building (now SEPTA's HQ) was constructed in the mid-70's. At the time thought was being given to having all El stops capable of handling 8-car trains. Of course, the lengthening at 13th makes it almost possible to handle 2 6-car trains, but the idea was, I believe, to open the station up a bit. The same thing was done at 8th St westbound when the Gallery was built a few years afterward.
The third rail probably should not be beneath the platform but that's where it is as it was built almost 100 years ago. Same for the columns on the Market St El - when the El was built, there was no consideration for motor vehicles as there were very few on the streets. The whole lane configuration on Market St is very awkward since cars really cannot cross over from the center (beneath the El) section to the outer lane and vice versa. The coming reconstruction and its single center columns should correct this.
I'm not sure why the gaps in the third rail on the El are as long as they are. Those on the Broad St subway are much shorter.
I also can't answer your question about where all that SEPTA money goes, other than in the pockets of many who are less than deserving in the opinion of this rider.
I know for a fact that poeple love to ride in the "el lane". Motorists who don't want to put up with traffic on Market Street proper usually will use the single lane on either side of the structure, which in case you didn't know, is illegal. This is how people get hit. The lane is usually for people intending ot make a turn at a VERY nearby street(case in point-the very intersection at 48th and Market that Jack descibed. From 47th to 48th is a mental hospital that is as long as a football field, so this lane is typically used for people turning onto 48th going west.
I'm not sure what you mean by "illegal". The lane breakdown on Market St beneath the el is parking at each curb with a moving lane next to each parking lane. The two lanes beneath the structure, one in each direction, are separated from these outer lanes on each side by the El columns. Traffic is allowed to use all lanes.
The Route 31 buses operate in the center (meaning that passengers must wait out in the "devil strip" between the columns - an accident a few years ago at 52nd Street caused one such passenger to become a fatality) mainly to avoid the narrow side lane and the abundance of double-parked vehicles.
The real problem comes when vehicles want to make left turns - they need to know to be in the center lanes and the visibility of oncoming traffic is greatly reduced, which leads to a high accident potential. This is one of the main reasons that the single-column support option will work much better along Market St. The double parking also forces vehicles to cross-over between the inner and outer lanes, where visibility is also extremely restricted, also leading to accidents.
The El builders of 1905 could never have envisioned this problem!
Standard platform length on the IND is 660 feet. A 10-car train of 60-footers fits very neatly in any given IND station. I get the feeling that 34th St.-6th Ave has even longer platforms. If you stand on the uptown platform near the northern end, you'll see a set of interlocking signals next to the express track, about 100 feet from the mouth of the tunnel. A 10-car Q train of R-32s or an 8-car D train of R-68s will come to a stop with the first car right next to these signals.
BMT platforms were originally built to accommodate 8-car trains of 67-foot standards. One Triplex unit (137 feet) was the equivalent of two standards (134 feet). If you do the math, it works out to 536 feet for 8 standards, so 550 feet would be a safe estimate. In the late 60s, BMT platforms were enlarged to accommodate 10-car trains of 60-foot R units. We're only talking about Southern Division lines. On the Eastern Division, maximum train length was 6 cars of standards. I don't believe any platform lengthening was done, but stations can accommodate 8-car trains of 60-footers. Dut to some tight curves, 75-foot cars cannot run on these lines.
When the IRT opened, express stations were built for 8-car trains; local stations, 4 cars. Not long afterwards, express stations were enlarged for 10-car trains. Even then, since the doors on the ends of trains were not used, the platforms weren't long enough to accommodate an entire train. When the R units began arriving, all stations (except two) were enlarged to fully accommodate 10-car trains. Since IRT cars are only 51 feet long, platform length is roughly 510 feet. Since the Flushing line runs 11-car trains, its platforms are at least 561 feet long.
P. S. South Ferry and 145th St.-Lenox are the two stations which are not long enough to open all the doors of a 9- or 10-car train.
As for the els:
Support columns of the original el structures were erected in the streets themselves. This was no big deal early in this century, since there weren't that many automobiles. Streetcar lines regularly ran in the corridor between the support columns. When el structures were rebuilt to handle steel subway equipment, the support columns were relocated to the sidewalks. One exception is the portion of the West End line which runs above 86th St. Because 86th St. is wider than most other streets which have elevated structures, the support columns were erected in the street. (The West End line was built as an elevated subway line from the start.)
BTW, that was a quick way to distinguish between an unrebuilt el and an elevated subway line. If the support columns were in the street, it was a genuine el. If the columns were on the sidewalk, it was an elevated subway line.
The Chicago system is all over the map when it comes to platform length. The shortest platform’s can be found on the Evanston (Purple) and Ravenswood (Brown) lines. The standard car length of CTA ‘L’cars is a little over 48 ft., to a specification dictated by the original design of the early ‘L’ lines. These lines were built with canopied stations, overhead crosswalks and many tight curves, some are 90 degree - S types. Therefore, the shortest ‘L’ platforms on these two lines are around 300 ft. Conversely, the longest platforms are those found in the State and Dearborn subways. The State Street platform starts at Lake St. (200 N) and ends at VanBuren (400 S), about ¾ of a mile. There are four separate stops along this section. The Dearborn Section extends from Washington (100 N) and ends at Jackson (300 S), or about ½ mile. There are three stops along this platform. All other lines, except the Skokie, have platforms that will accommodate berthing an 8-car train (minimum 400 feet).
Regarding columns in the street. Really, the only place the ‘L’ was built over a public "street" was on the Loop (Lake, Wabash, VanBuren, Wells), the Lake Street Line (Lake St.), the Ravenswood (short section over Wells and Orleans north of the Loop), and East 63rd St. (63rd St.). All other portions of the ‘L’ lines were built over private right-of-way, ally ways, and on embankments. The Lake Street Line columns are in the street, and up until the Route 16 - Lake was discontinued last October, the CTA used 96" wide buses on this route.
Addressing the subject of the third rail at stations, the third rail on the MKT-FKD El is "under running," therefore the exposure to someone falling off the platform and being electrocuted is minimized. However, in Chicago, as well as Boston, the third rail is not only "over running," but is also exposed. Most over running third rail systems have a coverboard to protect the rail from weather and to guard against animal and human contact. These systems use cars that have a third rail shoe that extends out from the third rail beam. In Chicago and Boston, contact to the third rail is made by the shoe hanging from the third rail beam directly over the contact rail. There is no set standard for placement of the contact rail in Chicago, however most of the third rail is run on the inside between the two sets of tracks. At all stations the third rail is placed opposite of the station platform as far away from the standing public as possible. There are two exceptions to this rule that I’ve observed. One is Loyola northbound (Howard Red Line), because of a turnout to the #4 track, a short section (two car length’s) is placed directly beneath the platform. The same condition exits at South Blvd. northbound (Evanston Purple Line), due to the switch to the small yard north of the station.
In Chicago, four lines (Douglas, Evanston, Ravenswood and Skokie) run at street level. Although most of the right-of-way is fenced in, there are grade crossings on each line. The third rail comes close to the sidewalk crossing’s. The only protection against contact with the "live" rail is signage.
As for the gaps in the third rail, as long as one car has contact with a "live" rail, the entire train is considered to be "live" and should have no trouble taking power.
The Skokie Swift uses overhead catenary.
True, the Skokie Swift uses catenary about 1/2 of its five mile one-way trip to DEMPSTER. But the rest of the CTA 'L' uses third rail.
The Swift changes from third rail to overhead at East Praire Road where the both overlap for about one block. This is done at speed.
Skokie Swift assigned and modified cars have always had motorman controlled special pan trolley pole sets. In North Shore days the train crew raised the trolley pole at speed. This was done in a downgrade area where coasting could cover a miss. The Evanstpn line was overhead from Howard Stt until the early 60's. After the North Shore demise the chageover was moved to South Boulevard and later third rail was extended to Linden--end of ;ine. In early years the Lake st line also had an overhead section at grade beyond Laramie Ave. This section was eliminated when the 'l' structure was connected to excess space on the Chicago & North Western embankment
That's why they kept a group of 4000 series L cars running until 1973-74 - they were equipped with trolley poles along with third rail shoes.
Speaking of the North Shore, I believe the 4000s were used to supplement North Shore service from time to time, possibly to and from Great Lakes Station. There is a book about the North Shore - I can't remember the title - which has a photo of a train of 4000s running down the middle of a street, trolley poles raised. There's just one thing: there was no way the 4000s could do 70-80 mph on private ROW. They topped out somewhere at 45 or 50.
They had a big church event in Mundeline in the 20's that had huge crowds. They built a temporary track and wood platforms to use L equipment to help fill the need. They also used then durring WW-II to bring sailors from great lakes into the City to process holiday mail.
That church event was a topic of conversation on the last Electroliner run on January 20,1963, according to that article I alluded to a week or so ago. I'll have to dig it out and pass along which magazine that was. The fact that the North Shore used L equipment to supplement service accounts for the photo of the 4000-series train running on North Shore track down a street, trolley poles raised, in one of the books on the North Shore. I just wish I could remember which book that was.
Was it "Days on the North Shore" by George Campbell. Mr. Campbell authored two books on the North Shore Line. I have both of them. I also have CERA Bulletin's 106 & 107, on the subject. Also in my possession is a copy of "North Shore - The Fastest Interurban" by Cmdr. William D. Middleton.
I think the photo's you're referring to are from the CERA and/or Campbell books.
Excellent reference books about the North Shore are: "North Shore - America's Fastest Interurban" by Cmdr. William D Middleton, "Days of the North Shore Line" and "Memories of the North Shore" by George V Campbell, "Interurban to Milwaukee" - CERA Bulletin 106, and "Route of the Electroliners" - CERA Bulletin 107.
Steve, I hope this helps you with your recollection!
Thanks for the info. I have Cmdr. Middleton's book, "South Shore - the Last Interurban"; being a South Bend native, I remember those trains. I understand that book is now out of print. Are the North Shore books still in print?
Cmdr. William Middleton's book "North Shore - The Fastest Interurban is, I'm sure, out-of-print. I got my copy back in the early 1970's. Unless there was a re-print or later addition, I'd say it is no longer available, except on a collector's table. I haven't seen it on any publication lists recently.
The book was an "over-view" and history, much like the South Shore book, and not very detailed like the Campbell and CERA books. I have the South Shore book also. What can I say, I try to collect anything CSL, CRT, CTA, NSL, CA&E and SS.
Cmdr. William Middleton's book "North Shore - The Fastest Interurban" is, I'm sure, out-of-print. I got my copy back in the early 1970's. Unless there was a re-print or later addition, I'd say it is no longer available, except on a collector's table. I haven't seen it on any publication lists recently.
The book was an "over-view" and history, much like the South Shore book, and not very detailed like the Campbell and CERA books. I have the South Shore book also. What can I say, I try to collect anything CSL, CRT, CTA, NSL, CA&E and South Shore.
To check for copies of these books, go to the Interlock Book Database at:
http://daniel.interloc.com/cgi-bin/texis/scripts/frameless/
Fill in only two blanks-
*AUTHOR: william middleton
*SHOW ME: 50
Several vendors list this and other books by middleton.
Good luck!
Yes, the normal SEPTA fare is $1.60 and the transfer is 40¢ but if you buy as few as two tokens in advance, the fare is $1.15 instead of $1.60. So unless you are starting life out at a bus stop, the fare is always $1.15 (+ the 40¢ transfer, if needed). And, for those in NYC and other places, subway-to-subway transfers are free in Phila.
On CTA full fare adult is $1.50, with transfer it is $.30 (within two hours) additional transfer is free. The transfer can be used for a round trip as long as you use the transfer within two hours. These are transfer cards, magnetically coded, as paper transfers are history on the CTA.
Saving money - tokens are no longer discounted, 10 for $15, this is done to discourage their use and encourage use of the farecard. When buying a farecard, you get 10 rides ($15 worth) for $13.50.
The big rip-off on CTA - monthly pass = $88, requiring the bearer to use the pass 48.9 times on a transfer trip make it pay. Only the transit dependent would use the system enough to justify the investment.
Well it seems Toronto's TTC fares are the best bargain. Cash fare is $2, tokens are 5/$8 or $1.60 each. At the current rate of exchange, that works out to be about US$1.35 cash or US$1.07 per token. Transfers are absolutely free which means you can travel from bus to streetcar to subway for one fare as long as your trip is continuous with no stopovers. In fact, transferring from the subway to surface routes often requires no paper transfer as the buses/streetcars pull into a fare-paid zone of the station, thus making boarding them by the back door also possible and speeding up the process. Our monthly Metropass is currently $83 ($76 by subscription) (or about US$55/$51) for unlimited travel in a month. Hate to brag, but...!
When you have great public transit on the cheap what’s wrong with bragging? Even though the service isn’t what it was back in the 1970’s when I first visited Toronto, it is still very, very good. I’m very envious! Toronto is a very "livable" city, in part because of the TTC. Chicago is also a very livable city, however, I wish the CTA would provide better service than it is currently doing.
I was in Chicago in 1996 and stayed out near the airport. I drove to the River Road station and parked and took the train downtown. Very convenient. However, I would've preferred taking a bus from the hotel directly to the station so I wouldn't have to scramble to find $1.50 in quarters each time I parked. But the routing wasn't too clear and no one in the hotel knew what the fare was including a transfer. So I drove the short distance.
But once on the train I was quite impressed with how easy it was to get downtown without a car. Just like at home. What I envied was the direct access to O'Hare by public transit. If only Toronto would see the light and build a line to Pearson Int'l.
Service in Toronto did drop a bit in the early 90s when the recession was on and waits were somewhat longer. But in the last year, ridership is way up and several service cuts have been reinstated. For example, Sunday subway headways are now less than six minutes.
I agree that what makes a city livable is the degree of reliable, safe and economical public transit it has. Chicago's system got me where I was going and I try to ulitize public transit whenever I'm travelling. I believe your system is now open 24 hours. I wish we'd have that feature here with the subway. Currently the last trains from the downtown area leave around 01:40 and resume at 06:00 (09:00 on Sundays, although there's talk of changing that time to 06:00 too). I think that the subways should operate 24 hours on weekends, but I guess safety is a concern. At least when the subway is closed, night buses take over and provide freqeuent service all night. Many other bus and streetcar lines operate 24 hours so we can still get around.
Regarding Owl Service on CTA Rail Routes
Unfortunately, effective April 26th, the only routes with "owl" service on the rapid transit are the Blue Line, O’Hare to Forest Park ONLY, and the Red Line, Howard - Dan Ryan. Owl service on the Green Line, Lake - Englewood - East 63rd, Purple Line, Howard - Linden, and the Douglas Branch of the Blue Line ended on the above date. Such is progress here in Chicago!
Headways on the Blue Line are better than every 30 minutes except between 1:53 am to 3:23 am (downtown). During those times service is every 30 minutes.
On the Red Line, headways are every 15 minutes, roughly between 2:30 am to 4 am (downtown). I think these are the best "owl" service headways for any rapid transit service. These trains use only two cars, and of course OPTO.
If you are interested in viewing schedules, the URL is //www.transitchicago.com/
When the subway closes at night, night buses take over. Headways are often every couple of minutes because after 02:00 when the bars start letting out, every bus is packed, which makes me wonder why the TTC doesn't extend the subway service, at least another hour. But then they probably know the types who'd be riding it at that hour! I have seen some buses so packed, they're all but leaning on the driver. That can't be too safe.
Later on the night routes on Bloor-Danforth and Yonge run on 15-minute headways. Other all night routes are usually every 30 minutes.
It makes sense to use shorter trains at night (like Chicago) but for some reason we always use 6-car trains. Years ago, evenings and weekends trains were shortened to four cars but ridership grew and they decided to leave them at six cars all the time.
I think I remember reading years ago that the "standard consist" of the Toronto subway was always 6 cars, and capacity was addressed by changing the headways. There is money saved by not cutting/adding cars. The CTA up until recent years was a advocate of running the shortest trains on frequent headways, at union member's delight. The longest trains operated during off-peak were four car trains on the North-South route. Most lines supported only two car trains. Today during off-peak, eight cars are normal on Blue and Red Lines with a 10 minute headway. Ravenswood (Brown) Line operates six cars on a 12 minute headway. Only the Orange, Green and Purple cut consists in the off-peak periods.
Toronto's original Gloucester cars (1954-1990) were much shorter than the current M, H and T train cars, having only three doors per side per car. As such, those trains operated as 8-car consists (6-car when the TTC was using shorter trains). I have seen photos of 4-car trains but I suspect they were used in the early off-peak hours in the 50s. Since I wasn't around for most of that decade and certainly wasn't riding the subways until the very late 60s, I never did see a 4-car Gloucester.
Ian,
I'll bet the lack of fulx in train length has more to do with maint cost then traffic.
First U need someone to take the train appart & second every time U do U risk that something will break.
Mr t__:^)
... Are you saying (accurately) that Toronto is one of the greatest places on earth? Can't say that I disagree. Transitwise it's great too, with the subways running every 4 minutes ALL DAY LONG. The only bad thing I have ever seen on Toronto transit is the huge crowds that get on the underground streetcar at Queens Quay at Yonge. So many people get on there to go the one stop to Union Station, it is near-panic inducing. The last time I was there was 2 years ago, so maybe it has improved.
Also, for the Toronto unfamiliar, the conductor used to blow a whistle before and at the closing of the train doors. In the last few years, a very quiet, pleasant, almost subliminal set of G-E-C tones are played like a combination of guitar and piano just before the doors close. It's not enough to intrude but enough if you are near the doors to notice it. It's similar to but nicer than the tone played in Paris, a middle E or E-flat, if my ear is correct.
Toronto is so great that...where else can you cross in a cross-walk without fear just by pointing your finger towards the road in front of you and going? Where else do people hold the door for you for up to 30 seconds before you get there? Where else do people wait for the other person at 4-way stop signs? Yes, Torontonians can brag, but do it in such a nice way that it doesn't seem to be bragging. (BTW, my wife was born on University Avenue there, so I guess I am slightly biased in its favor.)
On behalf of Torontonians, thanks for your glowing praises. The Harbourfront streetcar line is a bit of a crush, especially on summer weekends. For those of you who don't know, this line begins at an underground loop at Union Station and proceeds south underground on Bay Street to the Queens Quay Station. It is there that anyone wishing to take one of the ferries to the Toronto Islands (an absolute paradise from city life, ie. no cars, just a short 20 minute ferry ride away) gets off. From there the streetcar line turns west and surfaces and runs over to Spadina Avenue and then turns north to run up Spadina to another undergound loop at the Spadina Station linking up with the Bloor-Danforth and Yonge-University-Spadina subway lines.
Anyway, in the summer, crowds travelling that one stop to Queens Quay can be enormous. In past summers, the TTC has made riding the Harbourfront line free on weekends and charging fares in the transfer walkway at Union Station to the subway. That has helped speed things up for the drivers. As an alternate, the Bay Street bus also serves the ferry docks (but who wants to ride a bus?), or you could simply walk down from Union Station.
As for whistle blowing on the subways, that was all but dispensed of when they introduced the chimes and flashing lights above the doors on the newer cars. However, the M-1 fleet (only 36 cars or six trains worth) weren't converted. These cars from the early 60s are soon to be retired and are used on the B-D line only in rush hours. Conductors still use their whistles on those trains. I was of mixed feelings when they converted. I thought the whistles were somewhat unique.
The whistle blowing by the conductor was something that I regarded as unique. When I made my first visit to Toronto, 1972, I was still using the Market-Frankford El. At that time there was no warning that the doors were closing, so when I experienced the "distinctive" whistle in Toronto, I was impressed. In later years, I think SEPTA went to whistle blowing on the MKT-FKD. Does the practice still exist? Anyone out there know?
Oh, the trip to the Toronto Islands and the stay there is indeed, paradise.
Yes, they still do have the whistles on the El--at least on the old cars. The new cars, on the other hand, have a perfectly modulated female voice to tell you when the doors are closing *and* opening. More on that later. . .
Does this "voice" also announce the upcoming station? The TTC began doing this a few years ago, but in a very low-tech way. The driver or conductor announces the next stop over the rarely audible speaker system. Most of the time no one knows what was said. Apparently they are dreaming up new ways to do this which usually means "How do we spend more money we don't have?"
Yes they do announce the next station, I was only on 1 M-4, but I think, it was announced twice.
Although I am and always will be a native New Yorker, I must point out that Boston's T is still the best deal I've ever seen.
The Combo Plus pass costs $48.00/month, and is valid for unlimited use at all rapid transit stations and Green Line stops. It is also valid for up to $1.70 fare on all buses, for commuter rail zones 1A and 1B, and for commuter boat service at Lovejoy Wharf.
Regular subway fare is $.85, and bus fare is $.60
Tim, The daily and 2 or 3 day passes aren't bad either.
The last time I was in old bean town I stayed at the end of the trolly line (Riverside) and took trollys, trains & buses all over the city, e.g. trolley-train-bus to Old Ironsides.
Mr t__:^)
For fares, Toronto is good, Boston is better, however, San Francisco MUNI is the best. Here is why -
Adult monthly pass $35
Adult weekly pass $9, and $1 extra for the cable cars
Token rate is 10 for $8
Transfers are FREE
Adult cash fare is $1
I've only paid less in Budapest, Hungary. In 1995 the weekly ticket was $7 US.
I have to agree with Tim on Boston's being the best, and here's why: I live about 20 miles outside of the city, and take the commuter rail from "Zone 2." I pay $72 per month for my commuter rail pass, and THIS INCLUDES unlimited subway and bus use. But wait! There's more! Order an annual subscription by mail, and get 12 months for the price of 11. More? Yes, there's MORE! Send in 11 used passes to your auto insurance agent, and get a discount on your policy; for me it's $75 per year. Combining both discounts, my commute costs about $60/month for the commuter train and all subways/buses/trolleys/trackless trolleys. Oh, yeah -- it's "bring a friend for free" every Sunday too! Suchadeal!
No wonder the Boston subway was packed absolutely to the gills on a rather cold Saturday the last time I was in Boston! (Maybe CTA should get a hold of this idea -- cutting fares brings in passengers, and raising them drives passsengers away.)
Now who will sell this brilliant idea to the bureaucrats at the Merchandise Mart?
If CTA is going to implement something like this, they definitely need to look into bringing back conductors on the Red Line full time. I don't think people will go for this if they have to wait 20 minutes for an overcrowded train which spends an inordinate amount of time at each station.
OK Todd, I give in! There is no question that the "one pass for ALL services" enjoyed by those in Boston beats the MUNI. The "one pass" idea was pioneered on the ‘T’ under the administration of David Gunn, I believe. I say this because SEPTA adopted the idea also a few years later.
Anyway, the ‘T’ does offer "the deal". MUNI and Toronto are in there also. Unfortunately, here in Chicago, the CTA offers the monthly pass at $88 period. Although this pass is good on PACE it can not be used on the METRA commuter rail system. This fact is true even though CTA, METRA and PACE are all part of the RTA.
All,
For those that don't know things are going to get a lot more confusing in NYC, notice I didn't say better:
MetroCard $
- LIRR (the celandar mo) Pay + Bonus BUT/AND
1. Monthly "Mail-N-Ride" w/ 30 + 3 bal useable aft mo end
2. Mo " " " w/ 60 + 6 aft mo end tough darts
3. Mo " " " w/ 63 + unlim for $10 get refund
- Subway/bus
1. Value based @ 3, 6, 15, 30 (pre-made incl some bonus)
2. Value based w/ U decide value, e.g. @ 20 get 2 bonus
3. 24 hours for $ 4 clock starts at first use
4. 7 days for $ 17 ditto
5. 30 days/local $ 63 ditto
6. 30 days/exp $ 120 ditto
P.S. U can now ride from Montok to NYC for 1.50, not too bad if U like the bus.
P.P.S. Anybody out there collect Swipe/Dip Cards in NYC there is quite a varity now, eye have 3 dozen.
Mr t__:^)
OK, well here's another deal. Montreal's monthly pass, I believe is around $46 (about US$31) which includes free transfers and is valid on all metro lines and buses. Plus after the month is over, you can use your expired pass for discounts on various non-transit items. Plus, even though you're not supposed to share your pass, Montreal didn't bother to put a time delay on theirs (Toronto's is 20 minutes), so two can swipe through simultaneously at any time.
I don't think, however, the pass is valid on their rather limited suburban rail system.
In Toronto you can buy a Twin Pass for GO Transit (the commuter rail system) and the TTC Metropass. Since GO passes are sold on a per-distance basis, you end up saving only $10 when buying them together. No big deal.
Anyone who pays taxes has to rate the NYC subway number 1. Not only is it priced just slightly below average, but also it covers a very high share (80 percent) or its operating costs. When you add it all up, who has a lower overall cost per ride -- to the rider and the taxpayer? (Don't give me that cost per mile commuter rail stuff -- if it takes a subway an hour to go 10 miles, and a commuter railroad an hour to go 60 miles, you're still paying the labor for the maintenance of one train and its operation for one hour. And its still one trip to work).
IF you are a visitor to San Francisco, and are going to be moving withing SFO itself, then the Visitor Passports are the way to go. Unlimited travel on everything but BART. (Use BART to get back and forth from SFO Airport to the Market St. Stations. Right now you have to take Sam Trans Express Bus 3X to the Colma BART station- $1. An extention to the airport is under construction.) Considering that prices for the cable cars are one-way only (everyone has to exit at each terminal), if you ride the cable cars more than a few times during the week, you have the price difference between the regular pass and the passport covered.
Info from the MUNI website:
"The San Francisco Municipal Railway's PASSPORT offers UNLIMITED travel on San Francisco's world-famous transit system, as well as offers discounts to many of the City's best known attractions. Ride streetcars, buses, and cable cars as many times a day as you wish with your PASSPORT.
PASSPORTS are available for one day ($6), three days ($10), or seven days ($15) and become your ticket to easy travel on all of Muni's 1,000-vehicle fleet, including (busses, LRV/streetcars, historic Market St. PCC streetcars and) the internationally famous cable cars .
Nearly 80 lines reach to every corner of the city. Since most major lines provide service every few minutes, travel time is kept to a minimum. The following locations sell one-, three-, or seven-day PASSPORTS."
Check out this site for complete info on ALL types of Transit in the San Francisco Bay Area
While it wouldn't surprise me if SEPTA were indeed less efficient at using their money than other transit agencies, my understanding is that the biggest reason for the high fares is simply that Pennsylvania doesn't subsidize the service as much as other states/provinces do.
If you're a denizen of Philadelphia, like myself, this might be a bad thing. On the other hand, if you live in Erie or Williamsport and never come close to using SEPTA in your life. . .you might not mind so much. Generally, I believe in having the people who use services pay at least the majority of their cost, so I agree with that policy (with exceptions for really poor people, of course.) While I too think that Toronto is a really cool place to visit, I'm not sure I'd want to pay the price to live there. That 15% sales tax. . . ouch.
On the subject of night buses replacing subways, Philly has had those for several years now, too. In a couple of respects, I think they must be better for the passengers. For one thing, they run every 15 minutes, whereas previously the trains only ran every 30 minutes. Also, once you actually get on the bus, I'd imagine it's safer, because the driver's right there. Now, whether it's safer to wait on the open street as opposed to in the station. . . that I'm not so sure about. It also sucks to be outside in the winter, of course.
The one I don't understand is the branch of the Blue Line in Chicago that runs to Cicero (Douglas Park, I guess it used to be called?) If it's worth it to run until 1 A.M. on weekdays, why isn't it worth at least some service on weekends? Either that line has a bizarre pattern of ridership, or else someone in the CTA isn't thinking too clearly. Any Chicago people have more info on this one?
The CTA hasn’t really hasn’t done anything that makes sense recently. I rode on the 54/CERMAK Blue Line a few Saturday and Sundays in March. There was good ridership when I was on the trains. However, CTA said there is no longer enough passengers to support rail service. Maybe riders are sick of the 25 MPH slow zones on half of the route. Last week, I read in the newspaper that federal money is being released for rehabilitation of this branch. There had been talk a few years ago about entire abandonment.
Instead of trying new ideas, the CTA seems to cling to the "old ways" , and retrench. The idea of buses "feeding" rail lines, how effective transit works, just never caught on here in Chicago. Chicagoan’s seem to feel it’s their "right" to have one-seat service to the Loop. CTA would do better to look at the entire picture, the re-route buses that operate to downtown to rail stations with "beefed up" service. Traffic in the Loop is practically intolerable, and buses are just as jammed in traffic as the cars. The rail system, subway and ‘L’ have a good distribution system. CTA should let the rapid transit lines do what they do best - carry large amounts of people quickly to their destinations.
Well, I'll bet I can tell you why people want a one-seat ride; because they're too afraid to ride the El through those bad neighborhoods. Not saying this is a reasonable attitude or a good way to run the CTA, but I suspect that that's the problem. . .
The TTC until this year was nicely subsidized by the Ontario government but as of January 1, 1998, they dumped the whole operating cost onto individual muncipalities in the province. So who knows where the fares will go from here. So far, so good. And with ridership increasing, it may ward off the inevitable for a little while. I read recently that Toronto has the highest per capita ridership of North American cities over one million - we're definitely a transit city.
As for night buses and waiting on the streets, it is still a fairly safe city and I would venture to walk anywhere at night. Women may not necessarily agree with that but the TTC operates a program where they can request drivers to stop between regular stops to let them off from dusk to dawn.
And, as an aside, the 15% sales tax we pay in Ontario (8% provincial/7% federal) is a small price to pay for FREE medical care!
I was watching TV last Saturday and turned to a local Public access station that shows rap music videos weekly. I decided to watch and saw a particular video where the persons ran into the 145th Street station on the 1/9 line. At first the columns along the platform said "145 St." But as the scene went on(and without leaving the station) a train of R-46's came into the station. R-46's????? The scene showed the entire station and now the columns said 2nd Avenue. That explained the R-46's, but not the sudden switch from stations on opposite ends of Manhattan. Just pointing out another mistake in the movies concerning subways.
That happens a lot in the movies. Even train markings can vary from scene to scene if the editors don't catch on. As for what you saw, did the station appear to have outside platforms, which is the case at 145th St. on the IRT, or island platforms which are found at 2nd Ave. as well as 145th St. on the IND?
This is how it was:
The two artists in the video ran into a station with a sign that said-"145 St.-1/9-Downtown platform..."-of course an IRT route. They ran into the station and it was an island that had columns that also said "145 St.". And two kinds of cars were shown. The first train had a sheer straight side(like the R-62's) and had an LCD destination sign-I don't know whether or not R-62's have them but I know R-68's do. As the scene progressed, a train was pulling out of the station, but the sides were bulged(like an R-46, or 44 or 68, but it wasn't an IRT car) and the columns said "2nd Ave." and was an island.
About the LCD signs:
If the sign was on the end bulkhead and showed only a number or letter, the cars would be R-32s or R-38s.
If the sign was on the side and displayed a number or letter along with the route and destination flashing alternately, the cars would be R-44s or R-46s.
I guess the bottom line is that movie producers rarely pay attention to detail in the same way that "experts" do when they are incidental to the plot There are many examples:
In the film "Twister," there were many technical/scientific errors that caused us meteorologists to cringe and laugh. But only meteorologists would catch them. [Although I still want to know where you can buy a red Dodge truck that can be driven THROUGH a house, down its stairs, and come out without a scratch!]
Likewise, in the film "Speed," there were many errors that transporation buffs would surely catch: Remember when the bus was refueled "in-flight?" They put gasoline in the diesel bus. Or when the LA subway train ran out of control? There was no third rail on the track.
So when you see an error concerning NYC subways, like an R-46 on the IRT, it's probably only us catching it; to the producer, a subway is a subway is a subway (as in Pelham 123 II - yuk!).
I couldn't agree with you more. Most producers assume that the average Joe Moviegoer won't notice, or could care less, if a train is incorrectly marked, or a station is disguised with different markings.
On the other hand, it gives those of us who do notice, and who do care about authenticity, the opportunity to nitpick to our hearts' content.
BTW, even the original Pelham has a few inconsistencies.
I agree. This happens quite often with movies in the subway. It doesn't bother me, but it's something that all of us will always notice.
[Although I still want to know where you can buy a red Dodge truck that can be driven THROUGH a house, down its stairs, and come out without a scratch!]
Chyrsler doesn't make their trucks "ram tough" for nothing :)
--Mark
Was that really necessary? :)
-Hank
I was on the 'N' train about an hour ago at Beebe Ave. on the front car, admiring the view. As soon as the doors open, who should come in but a group of loud kids, throwing things around and playing near the doors. I wanted to say something but didn't. This type of behavior has turned me off from young people, I'm sorry to say. I've seen kids do a lot of unpleasent things on the subway, especially whne they think no one is around.
I've had to deal with boisterous kids myself on occasion. That happened once on an A train. I figured I didn't have to put up with that, so I got off at the next stop and waited for the next train.
I had one humorous experience on the Canarsie line once, on a train of BMT standards. I was enjoying the view through the front window as usual, minding my own business, when this guy came up to the window, looked through it, and, just as we were pulling into 6th Ave., he turned to his friend and yelled, "Hey, Ron, next stop, Havana!" This was in 1969, during the first rash of hijackings to Cuba.
Are there any differences between the IRT cars running on the Flushing Line and the IRT cars running on the mainline?
The cars on the Flushing line are BMT cars if I'm not mistaken, for it was built to BMT dimensions(right?). So the difference is basically the difference between an R-62 and an R-68. And that is about about 18" wide and 13' long.
Of course, since I haven't been on the '7' since the 80's I may be totally wrong.
The cars are **not* BMT cars!! The cars are standard IRT cars. The difference is that the tripper (for the trip arm on the signals) is on the same side as is on the BMT and IND.
If you will browse www.nycsubway.org,and/or subway books you will see pictures of R62 cars on the 7 line before the mainline IRT.
If you were to run an IND type car-it would crash into the tunnel walls which have very tight clearances.
The other difference- this line uses 11 car trains. Since the line uses married pair cars (ex:9601, 9602 -if these are not IRT cars dont scream-I just picked these numbers at random.) To make the train 11 cars, the NYCT uses a "trailer" car . Due to costs, these cars were not air conditioned and as a result, according to Steve (trainmaster7)these cars are usually not used durting the summer and the line runs 10 car trains. The connection with the BMT/IND is made at Queensboro Plaza-the only connection the line has to the mainline and to the shops at Coney Island Overhaul.
As I said(and as I am), I may be totally wrong. Well, I learned something. I also found out I need to ride the '7' sometime soon.
The 11th car is not a trailer - it is normal four motor car that is a single unit (that is, it has an MA and compressor on the one car, unlike married pairs). It's normally at one end of an 11 car train.
Actually, It's usually the third car on the end towards Flushing. I usually avoid it like the plague when it's hot outside although during the extreme summer months, it's mothballed; Thank God! You can differentiate it from the others by looking inside. If it Doesn't have the HUGE poles right in front of the seats and the ceiling is smooth and flat, you're in it. If the weather's hot, run for the next car! HeHe
You can also tell by the car number. R-33s 9306 thru 9345 are the single unit World's Fair cars. Back when they still wore the teal blue and white, the white portion on the single-unit R-33s was rounded off on both ends of the car.
Another trivia fact: These non air conditioned car also have the short center strip of lights between the fans. If you'll look at the redbirds with A/C(all redbirds with A/C) you'll see where the center lights used to be by the flat strip in the center of the ceiling running parallel to the sidewalls.
Ehhhh . . . not quite. The Flushing Line R-36's (which are air conditioned), and some of the Redbirds on the #6 train still have the center strip lights.
True. I believe these cars still have the original sash windows as opposed to the newer "picture window" type.
--Mark
All the redbirds still have the original style windows. Nowadays, the only external difference between the World's Fair cars and the rest of the redbirds is the window style. The World's Fair cars have picture/vent windows, and the rest have sash windows.
-Hank
Or - just look at the unit number, outside of the car
or high up on the rear wall of the motorman's cab:
If its between #9307 and #9345, you're in it.
(#9306 is in the Museum).
(the Master Numbers book strikes again!)
The single car could be anywhere in the train. There used to be a time when the 7 would have 8 cars during mid-day, and about 3pm or so, there would be a 3-car butt waiting at Main St., to which the 8-car would couple.
As I understand it, the R-33s (the single cars) could not accept an a/c retrofit because since they have all the equipment normally contained on 2 cars, there simply was no place to put the air-conditioning equipment underneath the carbody.
What I do not understand, though, is why the CTA cars (married pairs), which are shorter than the IRT cars, can each have both generators and compressors as well as air-conditioning?
Why do they have to add that special single-unit car into a 7 train?
In order to have an 11 car train you need one single unit car. All of the other cars are married pairs. With married pairs you can have a 10 car train or a 12 car train, but no 11 car train without that single unit car.
I did not phase the question correctly. Why is it necessary to make a 7 train 11-car long? Would it be much easier just to make a 7 train 10 car-long so all cars are married pairs? Is it worth to build this special single-unit just to add one car which does not help the train to carry much more passengers?
I did not phase the question correctly. Why is it necessary to make a 7 train 11-car long? Would it be much easier just to make a 7 train 10 car-long so all cars are married pairs? Is it worth to build this special single-unit just to add one car which does not help the train to carry much more passengers?
When the cars were designed around 1962, they had the room in the stations for 11 cars. NYCT wanted to get as many people as possible into one train since the Flushing line has heavy ridership, heavy crowds to/from Shea Stadium when the Mets were drawing well and also heavy crowds taking the train to the 1964/65 Worlds Fair.
Shea Stadium opened in 1964. In fact, the first game played there was on April 17 vs the Pirates. If I'm not mistaken, the World's Fair opened that same day, and in the process introduced the Ford Mustang. When Casey Stengel was asked if he thought the Mets would draw additional people due to runoff from the fair, he was quoted as saying, "If there are any people at the fair, it will be because my ballpark is too crowded for anyone else to get in."
The platforms all along the Flushing line were built to accommodate 11-car trains long before the '64-65 World's Fair. It wouldn't surprise me if they were able to run 11-car trains to the 1939-40 World's Fair. There are photos in Gotham Turnstiles which show 11-car trains of R-12s and R-14s.
It is true that the single car can be anywhere in the train but they always have it a the third north car so a to be able to cut to 8 cars when needed. I have seen on very rare occassions 2 extra single cars coupled elsewhere in a train together during the colder months if a married pair was not availiable to make full service.
Last week I spent the entire week at Main Street as a drum switcher. This is a job that is assigned to a Conductor so that when they cut the trains the drum switcher establishes the new operating position for the conductor by changing the drum switches. They never cut a single train, but there was plenty of work for me to do on the platform. Roll signs constantly need attention, trains being returned to the storage yard need to be cleared of customers. Then there is just the need to help the train get out of station. The people never stop coming, Main Street is got to be one of the busiest terminals I have ever seen. Having worked the line a few times, I can tell you it is a very busy line. 11 cars are more then necessary on this line.
And yes, they could put the single car anywhere on the train. You are correct, during my week I noticed on every train the single unit was the third north car. Why they put it there I don't know, but your explination sounds good.
Someone asked why they bother to cut the single unit in the summer. Summer is generaly considered a light riding period and the 11th car is not necessary.
Not only are the car dimensions the same as mainline IRT cars, the trippers are on the same side too--on the married pairs (R-36 cars), at least. The signals on the #7 line are on the right, just like on other IRT lines. But the single (R-33) cars, the ones without air-conditioning, have tripcocks on BOTH sides of the cars. When Flushing trains are moved to the Coney Island yards (or anywhere else on the BMT or IND system), one of these R-33 cars is always put in front so that, in case of a problem, it can respond to the stoparms of BMT/IND signals which are on the left side of the tracks.
How these moves were handled before these R-33 cars were around, and how they will be handled once they are retired, I don't know. The presence of air-lines for the tripper mechanism on both sides of these cars may have been one more factor making it difficult to add air-conditioning eqipment to the cars in question.
Does anyone know if the Steinway Lo-Vs had tripcocks on both sides? Chances are the Q units did, at least after they were rebuilt in 1938-39.
Once the single unit R-33's are retired I'm sure moves over the IND/BMT will be handled like other IRT equipment moves, which is to put IND/BMT equipment on both ends. That is unless some tother cars such as the R-62/62A's are retofitted iwth trip cocks on both sides.
Don't forget that every work motor an work car in the system has a trip cock on both sides. Although I'd just love to see, say, an R68 leading an IRT train through Times Square....
-Hank
On the BMT Broadway line, that wouldn't be a problem. On the 7th Ave. or Flushing lines, well, you'd hear crunch, crash, screech, boom, etc., plus an assortment of other noises, plus a few people getting written up. Come to think of it, you wouldn't even get that far on the Flushing line. I heard that an R-10 somehow ended up heading a train of R-12s once on the Flushing line out to Corona yard. Everything was fine until the train reached one of the express stops, presumably 61st-Woodside, at which point the R-10 got into it with the platform edges. Oops! But, boss, an R-10 looks like an R-12. Yeah, but an R-10 is also a foot (OK, 14.5 inches) wider, not to mention 9 feet longer.
That "looks like" wont get far! Another difference between IRT cars and BMT/IND cars is that the IRT cars have 3 sets of doors on each side vs 4 on the BMT/IND.
Stylistically speaking, The R-10s did bear a resemblance to the R-12s and R-14s. They all had the same drop sash windows which were fully exposed, along with the same clerestory roof and roofline line and destination signs. In addition, they all had external door controls and step plates. Even the original paint schemes were similar.
And, yes, IRT cars have 3 sets of doors per side vs 4 on IND/BMT cars.
Hank- If you saw an R-68 leading a work train into Times Square, you better call for EMS. The train is too wide for the IRT. Belmont did not want freight on "his" railroad so he designed the system so that it would be "impossible" to run freight on "his" railroad.
Major damage would result to the platform, tunnels, train, not to mention any passengers who happen to be on the platform.(I hope you were kidding!)
The Flushing Line is an IRT Line with IRT REDBIRDs .
The latest Car Assignment that I have seen is as of March 1998
This shows the following IRT Cars Types Active
R26
R28
R29
R33
R36
R62 & R62A
and of course the 10 R110A which have since been removed from service
The bulk of the Flushing Line cars were R36
About 10 trains of R36 were assigned to N0 6
and I think 1 train was assigned to NO 4
There are 29 cars, lets say 3 trains of R33 also assigned to FLUSHING.
While the bulk of the R33 are on NO 2 they also serve on NOs 4, 5, & 6 Lines.
Some Transit Trivia. The now standard tilt-in picture windows were introduced on the World's Fair cars (they were blue when new). Dave has photos on the site.(They are usually called R36WF)
I knew about the World's Fair purchase. My only experience with the Flushing Line in the past 10 years has been eyeballing its equipment from Shea or the US Open so I guess I've wiped their true identification from my mind.
Are these cars part of the Redbird fleet scheduled for replacement or are they considered a safe fleet.
I think I forgot the 6 trains or so of R36s whose assignment was the NO 6 in March of this year in my earlier post
Those cars are as good as gone. The best of the entire Redbird fleet will be held onto, but the Flushing line will be getting R62a from the B'way lines....
-Hank
Since this subject has been brought up, there is a diffrence with the R-36 Flushing line cars that I have not been able to figure out. The other Redbirds do not do what I am about to discribe. I hope that some of our resident experts can figure this out.
At a station stop when the side doors are closing and locking and when the guard light goes out, each car produces a very distictive whoosh of air. This does not appear to have any thing to do with indication at the MDC (Master Door Controler). If one car has a hanging guard light all the other cars will make the sound and indication will not be recived at the MDC. I know that each car has a signal light relay system that checks the status of each door on the car and that the guard light will not go out untill the relay has cofirmed that all door are closed and locked. I am sure it is more complex than I have described, but the only thing I can think is that this whoosh of air is related to the signal light relay system.
Does anyone know what this whoosh of air is that occurs when the doors close and lock?
probally somphting to do with the air brakes on the cars, mabye the brake shoes will realse or a pressure valve will open.
Now that you mention it:
I seem to recall that a short beep would be heard as soon as the doors closed and locked on all cars from the R-10s thru the R-38s. It may have had to do with the safety interlock with the controller releasing. You don't hear that beep anymore on any of the rebuilt cars except for the World's Fair R-36s.
None of the cars from the R-40s on ever beeped this way. This is not to be confused with the door chimes on R-44 and later cars.
When you say Beep, are you refering to the whoosh of air that those cars release when the doors close and lock.
No, the beep was an audible musical pitch. I used beep for lack of a better word. It isn't excessively loud, but I could hear it right after the doors closed.
I last rode the 7 in June of 1996 out to Shea Stadium, and remember hearing both the audible "beep" and whoosh after the doors closed. My guess is that they may something to do with the door interlock releasing. I was curious at the time as to why the trains were only 10 cars long instead of 11, but that question has been answered courtesy of this website.
I also recall that the R-40s and R-42s emitted a long whoosh of sorts after the doors closed before they were rebuilt, but they didn't beep. On the R-1/9s, you could hear a short "tcsh" sound after their doors closed.
I miss the sound of air engine powered doors closing. Does anyone have a .wav file of this sound for a homesick New Yorker?
I just remembered that Todd Glickman told me that the doors of the R-4 and R-7 at Seashore (where I now volunteer as well!) are functional. Maybe I'll get to hear the sound for real this summer, and even stand between cars and open and close them myself!!!
You and me both!!! Can you imagine us on the step plates at the same time, each of us taking one side? They'd kick us out for having too much fun! Makes you kind of wish the center platform at 59th St. was still in use (I remember that; in fact, I have boarded trains from that platform).
Say, Todd, how are the doors on 3352? I know they're manually operated, but do they still open and close?
The doors on IRT 3352 do (creak) open and (groan) close. By the way, when I was up at Seashore a few weeks ago, I took some pictures of the NYC fleet (including SI 366), and sent them on to our wonderful SubTalkMaster Dave. Hopefully he'll get a few of them posted for you all to see.
I can't wait to see the photo of 3352. It's certainly one of the more historically significant pieces of subway equipment around. I trust the windows were put back in after Jim Tebbits removed the center doors.
I was on the car two weeks ago, and the windows are back. Todd may have more details, however.
I want to see SI366....
2 or 3 SIRT cars sat on the track near the Con Ed plant off the West Shore Expresway until maybe 5 years ago, I used to see them all the time. I never got close, nor did I get a phot, but I'd love to know where those cars are now.
-Hank
SI 366 is at the Seashore Trolley Museum in Kennebunkport, ME, deep in one of our yards. The sponsor of the car has done some 'preventative' restoration on it, but it basically sits idle at the moment. If anyone wants to see the car while visiting Seashore, just ask one of the staff.
I took some pictures of 366 and sent them to our Webmaster Dave. He says that when he has a chance, he will post them on the Museum roster page.
By the way, we'll have a "USA Trolley Parade" there on July 4th. I don't know yet which cars will be involved (we'll be doing the planning in a few weeks), though I'm sure TARS 631 will be in the line-up. SubTalkers are welcome to come and visit, and say hello!
How about subway equipment? Does Seashore have anything like a NY Transit Day the way Shoreline does? Other than 800, 1440, and 3352, does any of Seashore's other subway rolling stock run? (I know you posted this once before, but I don't remember) I told our East Coast service tech where I work that if I'm out there again on a service trip and if we ended up going to Maine, I definitely want to visit Seashore. I was in Kennebunkport once, in 1965; we visited this camp which is run by the Franciscan Fathers. BTW, my father's birthday is on the 4th of July.
Seashore does not have a NYC day. It turns out that most of our member/volunteers/contributors are into streetcars/trolleys, and rapid transit equipment takes a back seat. There are a few of us who are rapid transit supporters, but funding & volunteer time is VERY limited.
That being said, R4/R7 800/1440 does run. We operate it for members only (and their guests) on rare occasion. That's because (1) we don't have reliable high-platform loading for visitors and (2) it draws a LOT of power (which = $$$).
IRT 3352 is temporarily side-lined with a case of leaky brake stand and also a control problem. If we can get some pit time this summer, I will be funding resolution of those problems. It has been four years since I took it out the line, and two since I ran it in a trolley parade. On that occasion, I snapped a picture of it along side 800/1440 and 631 (see below).... if I can find the picture, I'll post it.
From a trolley standpoint, Third Avenue Railway System 631 is part of our regular operating fleet, and runs often. The foot-operated, self-lapping brake pedal is KOOOL. Brooklyn car 4547 is on display in one of our barns; it occasionally comes out for trolley parades but is limited to that since it is very fragile and in need of TLC (and $$$).
Concerning non-NYC rapid transit equipment, here's the full roster , just toggle down to "rapid transit."
Boston Blue Line cars 0512/0513 (1923) ran for many years as our Terror Train during Halloween. It has a 3-point automatic controller and SMEE brakes. Currently it is side-lined with multiple woes. Money and TLC needed.
Boston Red Line car 0719 (1927) runs, and is used in work service, mainly to tow our crane car. It has a funky automatic controller (this way for forward, that way for reverse) and electro-pneumatic brakes.
Boston Orange Line car 01000 (1928) runs, and is limited to members and their guests only on a very limited basis (see previous post on 800/1440). It has the same control/brake equipment as 0719.
Philadelphia Bridge Line car 1023 (1938) runs, but is currently in mid-restoration by its sponsor, so getting to the main line isn't easy. Its control/brake equipment looks/runs like R1/9s.
All of the other cars on the roster are not operational. Either they don't have trolley poles, or haven't run in so long they need a lot of work. Volunteers and $$$ are the key to getting these restored and operational!
I gather that TARS 631 is a close cousin of Shoreline's TARS 629. Did 631 go to Vienna as part of the Marshall Aid Plan the way 629 did? Shoreline left the German signs "Auf" and "Zu" by the doors in place on 629.
I hope you'll forgive me for constantly bringing up 3352, but I must admit I've taken a liking to it. What sort of control problems does it have? I said before that it is historically significant, since the IRT pioneered the use of all-steel passenger cars, and 3352 was part of the first group of such cars. That said, it's safe to assume that 3352 is the oldest survivng all-steel railroad passenger car of any kind, subway or otherwise, in the world.
Seashore's 631 did indeed go to Austria. But we have restored it to its New York appearance! It was out-shopped only two or three years ago, and is in marvelous condition.
IRT 3352's control problem is unknown. It needs some time over the pit to be explored. I believe you are correct about 3352's significance.
I will be at Seashore tomorrow for a day of "electric therapy." Two buzzes...
A very good question, and you are correct that it has nothing to do with the doors. Most NYCT cars have a device called a load sensor. This device is mounted above the #1 truck. It constantly monitors the weight of the car, sensing changes in passenger loading. It sends appropriate signals to the propulsion and braking controls and adjusts the rates so all cars accellerate & brake equally regardless of the car load. However, before there was a load sensor, there was a "variable load". This device performed a similar function, however, it did it only when the doors were opened and closed. The #24 wire, which is in the Guard Light circuit, would trigger the variable load to "do its' thing" each time the doors were closed. That's what causes the 'puff of air'.
Thank you very much Steve.
If I understand correctly, the Redbirds, with the exception of the Worlds Fair cars, have a load sensor that checks the weight at times other than when the doors open and close. The Worlds Fair cars have a load sensor which is ativated by the guard light circut.
If you would not mind, could you please explain why there is a "puff of air" when the load sensor "does it's thing".
Thank You
The load sensor and the variable load each weigh the car in similar ways. Supply air is put to the input side of the device. The car body actually depresses a lever on the device which permits an output of air pressure proportional to the weight of the car (varying due to load). This air pressure is used to re-calibrate the propulsion and braking through the use of transducers. With a load sensor, since the process is continuous, the air is not exhausted. However since on the older system, the process is based only when the doors are closed, after the re-calibration is accomplished, the air is exhausted in preparation for the next sensing event. I hope this clarifies the reason for the 'air puff'.
It clarifies the subject totaly. Thanks again!
Mike, They're older ... dating from the World's Fair in 64. When they were a very attractive light blue vs. ulgly red.
Mr t__:^)
The recent discussion about how Second Ave. trains would have fit into IRT platforms makes me wonder if anyone knows the answer to the same question about the "joint-service" lines to Flushing and Astoria. There are three possibilities that come to mind:
a.) The lines were built to BMT clearances and gap fillers or gantlet tracks used for IRT cars.
b.) The lines were built to IRT clearances and the BMT used special cars that would fit these clearances. (Seems unlikely, since these trains would have had to run in the BMT subways, requiring lots of gap fillers, but who knows? . ..)
c.) The lines were built to BMT clearances and the IRT ran wider cars. This seems more likely, although again, it would have required the clearances on the El's that the cars ran into in Manhattan to have been wider than the subways.
Anybody have more info on this?
Here's the story:
The Astoria and Flushing lines were both built to IRT dimensions. This meant that while the IRT could run thru service from Manhattan to both branches, the BMT could not. BMT trains from Manhattan terminated at Queensboro Plaza, where connections could be made to continue onto Astoria or Flushing. The BMT maintained service on both branches by using open gate el cars, which were the same width as IRT cars.
As the World's Fair approached in 1939, the BMT faced a dilemma. It didn't want to haul passengers in outdated equipment, yet at the same time it didn't want to design a new car which could only be used on the Astoria and Flushing lines. Enter the Q units. They themselves were open platform el cars which were rebuilt into closed platform vehicles, fitted with remote controlled sliding doors, and painted orange and blue. The Qs led an eventful life after the fair, but that's another story for another time.
In 1949, joint BMT/IRT service on these lines ended. The Flushing line became the IRT's responsibilty, while the Astoria branch had its station platforms shaved back for thru service with BMT trains. Routes through Queensboro Plaza were consolidated, and eventually half of that structure was demolished.
Just another tidbit Steve
The "Q" in "Q-Type" stood for Queens
You are absolutely right. The Q did, in fact, stand for Queens.
I have been looking at the section about the plans for the Second Avenue subway and must say was intrigued. But I have a few questions. First, was it to be built to the standards of the IRT or the IND/BMT?
It said(and I have read) that it was to be with the larger IND/BMT dimensions but that it was to connect to lines in the Bronx. Five of the six lines in the Bronx are IRT, so what gives?
Also, I was looking over some of the maps and saw that there were seven stations planned on the section below 34th. There was a particularly long strecth of track between the proposed stations at Pine and Wall Sts. and a station at Chatham Square in Chinatown without a station. Couldn't there be one there? It could serve the federal area around the courthouse. It could be the "Foley Square" station or something, but why wasn't one originally there?
Those IRT lines which would have connected to the 2nd Ave. line would have had their station platforms modified to accommodate wider IND rolling stock. Quite possibly, gap fillers similar to those at Union Square and South Ferry would have been used, and would have moved out when an IRT train would pull into the station.
As it stands, if the 2nd Ave line is ever built, and I wouldn't hold my breath, only the stretch north of 63rd will actually be built, as I understand. This will tie into the BMT Broadway line via 63rd St; those tracks are already in place and ready for service. All that needs to be done is to knock out the dividing walls on the platforms at Lexington Ave. Yes, there are tracks on the other side of those walls.
My cousin showed me a book this afternoon that those of you out there in subwayland may want to show any young'uns interested in NYC subways. It's called Slake's Limbo(I'll get the author's name), and it's about a boy who runs away from home and seeks refugein a hole in the wall of the tunnel of the IRT Lexington Ave. line. There are plenty of descriptions of the subway including the famous "Sea Beach" and "Brighton" lines.
So if anyone is interested, I suppose you can find it at a local bookstore or library.
Now, time to get ready to graduate. This time next year, I'll be a Yale man.
That book was on my (and my brother's, and my sister's) 5th Grade reading list; we read it in class...I remember it fondly, the only reason I participated in that class.....
-Hank
There is a building at Queensboro Plaza, that has the letters "IDCNY"
on the roof. It is on the right, as you pass it on a Flushing bound
7 train. Can anyone tell me what that is? I assume that the "NY"
stands for New York. Also on the 7 line, I've noticed a large
concentration of Asian businesses along Roosevelt Ave., especially
around Elmhurst and Jackson Heights. Is this another Chinatown or
Koreatown in the making?
Could it be the International Dryer Company?
I stand corrected!
It's the international design center of New York, a Kock-era economic development project intended to provide economies of agglomeration for the design-arts (furniture making, etc) within the city. Didn't turn around the furniture industry. Don't know what's in there now. Business creation through real estate is less popular in the current administration -- tax cuts are the thing, or were until the stadium insanity.
Roosevelt Avenue has just about every Asian and Latin American immigrant group under the sun. The press calls it the Orient Express. I think of it as the home of Indians, Pakistanis, and Columbians myself.
LaGuardia community college occupies at least part of the IDCNY building. I don't know how much, or for that matter how much is occupied by the furniture and design businesses.
The design center has a few city agencies based in that building, such as the NYPD - Traffic division. I was in the busilding once. It's very modern inside, but I noticed many of the offices seemed to be empty.
Is it possible for a train to come off the Lexington Avenue subway, travel on the tracks of the T.S. shuttle and come on the tracks of the Broadway/7th Avenue tracks? I know that one of the tracks is missing but this cannot be a regular service? Was one of the tracks that connected the shuttle to either trunk line taken out?
No, it is not possible for a train to come off the Lexington Avenue subway, travel on the tracks of the T.S. shuttle and come on the
tracks of the Broadway/7th Avenue track. See this track map- http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/34-42.gif
No, it isn't. There is no physical connection between these tracks. It can be built, but it's not worth it.
-Hank
If there were switches between Tracks 3 and 4, it could be done with some time-consuming forward-backward-forward maneuvering. I could see where such a connection would come in handy in an emergency rerouting, but otherwise, it's not worth it.
The Hornet,
There is an active switch between the Shuttle & 7Ave Uptwn lcl line.
The South Shuttle line goes to Lex Ave, BUT I don't think the North Shuttle line can cross over (there are three tracks on the 7th Ave side of the Shuttle.
Mr t__:^)
No -
The Lexington Ave. line is connected to Track 1 at Grand Central. The Broadway/7th Ave. line is connected to Track 3 at Times Sq.
However, while tracks 1 & 3 are connected under 42nd St., Track 3 is not connected to any of the other shuttle tracks.
I mistyped - the previous message should have read:
The Lexington Ave. line is connected to Track 1 at Grand Central. The Broadway/7th Ave. line is connected to Track 4 at Times Sq.
However, while tracks 1 & 3 are connected under 42nd St., Track 4 is not connected to any of the other shuttle tracks.
OK, so could they make the connections that are lacking now? I'm no expert.
Stop me if you've heard this, but ...
... it would be great to have, so to speak, diagonal Manhattan service without changing trains. In other words, between the Upper East Side and the West Village/Chelsea.
The opposite diagonal (Upper West to Lower East) is sort of provided already by the B and D, and of course, long ago, the very first IRT line did something somewhat similar.
But the Upper East-to-Lower West doesn't exist, and to my (limited) knowledge never has. If you have to go from the West Village, Chelsea, or even Penn Station to the Upper East Side (as I sometimes do), you're talking two or even three trains.
The closest thing I know of that was ever even proposed was early this century, when the PATH (then the Hudson & Manhattan) was supposedly going to be extended north and east from 33rd and Sixth to Grand Central, which would have been great, but that still wouldn't have gotten you further up the East Side.
So why not introduce a new IRT-width train that starts on the 1,2,3,9 line through TriBeCa and the West Village, goes crosstown on the Shuttle line, turns at Grand Central and continues up the 4,5,6 line?
I'm guessing you could do it all without adding miles and miles of new track, just some new junctions or something. You wouldn't need new stations, or even more trains. You could just substitute for a few of the trains now running on each line.
Presumably you wouldn't increase the number of riders crowding onto these trains. They'd just be the same people who now have to take, say, a 4, the Shuttle and the 1. You'd just save them (OK, me) a bunch of transfers.
And how about we call it the 10 train, out of respect for the memory of the now-retired Number 8 Third Avenue El.
Is any of this possible?
Tony B,
Nope can't do it, particularily on the 7th Ave side as it would require a lot of crossing tracks that a very busy now.
On the Grandcentral side I believe one track comes in between the up & dwn twn lines and a second track comes in onto the dwntwn lcl, so neither side would be easy to do
Mr t__:^)
Hello,
I remember seeing somewhere that on Wednesdays 'behind the scene' tours and/or trips are scheduled for various facets of the subway system. Although I live in Maryland, I travel to Nyc often, and would welcome the opportunity to particpate. Any information would be appreciated. Thanks!!
Ira
The Wednesday tours have been suspended for the for the time being (don't ask me why beacuse I have no idea). It may just be for the Spring/Summer.
The best thing to do is to write to the Museum at:
The New York Transit Museum
130 Livingston Street
9th Floor Box E
Brooklyn, NY 11201
or call them at 718-243-8601 and ask them.
Looking over the maps for the Second Ave. subway, I figured that there is adequate space for three more stations along the route south of 34th. Now don't cut me up just yet.
First, as I mentioned, I think it's a little strange to have a station at Wall and Pine Sts. and then have the next stop at Chatham Square. That's Chinatown! A bit of a distance. Solution? A station that would really be under Beeker St. downtown but would be called "Fulton St.-Brooklyn Bridge". For it has those two locations just a short walk north or south of the station, and it would be farther away from the Wall and Pine station than the stations at Cortlandt and Rector Sts. on the N/R.
Next, something that bothers me about trains every now and agian-the fact that just because there are no busy streets between one stop and another that a large distance acn be skipped, making it inconvenient for people in between who use the line.
A station at East 7th between the ones planned for East Houston St. and 14th.
Also one at East 28th, like on the N/R.
A suggested letter for the train that will never exist-I've always liked the "T". Color? There's only one gray line.
Now you all can tell me why I should be quiet and go back to reading John Grisham.
The misbegotten rationale was that the fabled Second Ave line , letter P for phantasm, would be a two track express only line thus skipping otherwise valid origins/destinations such as St. Marks Place(East 8th St.) a busy location day and night. Now that the bus and subway have been joined at the faregate this is more reasonable as one might expect to find a Second Ave bus at 14th for the short hop to St Marks etc. It remains to be seen if the subway is ever completed or whether once tokens are eliminated the fare structure is returned to the previous "screw the rider" rules. Note that the 1st,2nd Ave bus was a TA operation as a replacement for the one time el and thus should have given free transfers to from the subway from the get go.
There used to be a T train. Back in the 60s, prior to the opening of the Chrystie St. connection, the West End Express carried the T designation when letters were initially implemented for BMT routes. The T replaced the 3; when the Chrystie St. connection opened, the T became the B.
If they were to introduce a Broadway/West End/63rd St. service, which may never happen, I wouldn't be at all surprised if they were to designate it as the T.
The distance between these planned 2nd Ave stations was a compromise between a traditional 4 track express - local service (which could not be afforded) and a desire to have trains run faster than traditional local services (which is why the stations are farther apart than typical local train layouts).
--Mark
Actually, New York has its subway stations spaced quite closely together compared to other cities, and is also somewhat unique in the extent that 3 and 4 track mains exist to provide express and local service.
In many other cities, (e.g, Chicago, Boston) the rapid transit lines are mostly two track, and the stations spaced further apart, frequently 1 to 1.5 miles apart, with parallel bus lines providing "local" service. This is especially true of newer systems or extensions.
In the 1950s, Chicago CTA eliminated many "close-in" stations on its L lines, with the thought that the rapid transit lines would be express lines from the outer edges of the service area, and the close in areas would be served by busses.
Another reason Chicago eliminated some close-in stations, at least on the Brown/Purple Line between Sedgwick and Chicago, is that said portion of the line runs past Cabrini-Green housing project, which is most definitely the wrong side of the tracks! From what I understand from older riders, the only people who got on at the closed stations (Division, Oak, etc.) were gangs which would then hold up the train passengers! Once the CTA closed the Cabrini-Green stations, the incidence of armed robbery on the Brown Line plummeted.
The problem is that now the land east of the line (Cabrini-Green is west of the tracks) is being **highly** developed with upscale housing, and stations in this stretch would attract professionals who want a quick trip into the Loop.
The original Northside ‘L’ was built with four tracks extending south from Wilson Avenue to Institute Place, a location just north of the Chicago/Franklin Station. Before the subway opened in 1943, this section of the system supported the all the Northside Services (Howard, Ravenswood, Evanston Express and Wilson-Kenwood Locals) and the North Shore Line. Also remember, the Chicago Rapid Transit (CRT) and Chicago Surface Lines (CSL) were direct competitors for passengers. Hence, stations on the "old system" prior to 1948, were spaced as close as every two blocks or ¼ mile to compete with the streetcar lines.
When the CTA took over the operation of CSL and CRT in 1947, studies were made regarding the best use of the existing plant and also to plan for the future. As the two divisions were no longer competing for passengers, the long range plan for the rapid transit was to speed up service by elimination of closely spaced stations. New routes, elimination of "local" services and a new concept, A/B skip-stop service were instituted. A new standard for stations spaced at ½ mile (every four blocks) intervals was introduced. This corresponed with the bus services provided on streets spaced at every 1/2 mile. Any new lines would built with spacing at one mile intervals.
On the Northside ‘L’ between the Loop and Armitage, only the Ravenswood, Evanston Express and North Shore trains would remain. In keeping with the ½ to one mile rule, the distance between Chicago/Franklin (800 N) and Sedgwick/North Avenue (1600N) is one mile, thus spelling the end of stations at Oak and Division. These stations had low patronage and were closed in 1949, I believe before Cabrini-Green was built in the late 1950’s. I’ve been told that there was a period of time in which robberies were common on the Ravenswood Line, but this was not the reason for the closing of the "close-to-the loop" stations. Low patronage and speeding service was the criteria for station closings.
A few exceptions noted to the ½ to one mile rule. The Wellington Station (3000 N) on the Brown/Purple Line is located between Diversey (2800 N) and Belmont (3200 N). CTA for years has tried to close this station, however, in recent years ridership has increased considerably and Belmont and Diversey ,which are already crowded during the rush hour, couldn’t handle the load. Secondly, the stations north of Lawrence (4800 N) are located every three blocks vs. 1/2 mile. This station spacing is one reason A/B skip-stop is sorely missed on the Red Line.
Addressing the "new" housing in the Cabrini area. The Clark/Division station is a short walk and the LaSalle Bus Routes (#135, #136 & #156) are closer. The Sedgwick/North Ave. station has attracted many new riders in recent years. The entire Brown Line has experienced tremendous growth, and the CTA is looking for money to extend the station platforms to accommodate 8-car trains. I wouldn’t look for the CTA to start adding stations to the Brown Line. As a daily rider, I wouldn’t want to go back to the days of a station every ¼ mile. Anyway, many of the Yuppies moving into that neighborhood are more interested in BMW’s than public transportation.
One of the guiding principles of the IND system was that stations would be further apart in order to speed up service. This was true of both local and express service. Since the IND trains are relatively long, the distance between stations is not as great as it seems (at least, it wouldn't be if the entrances were kept open).
I agree that Houston St. to 14th St. seems like a long way between stops. But, if built to minimize the distance, it would be no more than about 5 or 6 blocks to one end of either station. Of course, doing that maximizes the distance between the next stations in each direction. Perhaps if the 14th st. stop were built to the N. of 14th st. and the Houston St. stop built to the south of houston, 8th street might work OK.
Personally, I prefer to walk a little bit and get where I'm going faster once I get on the train.
--mhg
The IND also attempted to induce passengers to stay on local trains right through their final destinations, instead of changing to an express at the next express stop. That's why there are only 5 local-only IND stations south of 59th St. in Manhattan, and none between 59th and 125th Sts. Of course, that segment is a joyride for us express buffs.
As for widely-spaced stations, you're right about that. Examples: 23rd to 14th Sts. on both the 8th and 6th Ave lines, and 59th to 72nd Sts. along Central Park West.
The Department of Doing Without Thinking has struck again!
South Ferry Station on the 1/9 is now being treated as a normal station stop instead of a terminal. This means that you will not e able to come off the SI Ferry and find a waiting train at the station. Crews are being instructed to make the stop, open, let people off and on, close down and proceeed normally to Chambers St, where the train will be held to its scheduled departure time.
What's the difference other than psychological? Either you wait on the idling train (which seems nicer or safer), or you wait on the platform... Also since most people getting on south of Chambers are going to change for a 2 or 3 at Chambers (either north or south), it can't hurt for the train to wait there for a minute or two. I realize that this changes the timing of trains, but since arrival at a train station is usually random anyway, it makes little difference to the rider.
I am not arguing that this should have been done, only that if there is an (unknown to me) logical reason that NYCT has chosen to do this, there is no good counterargument against it. It appears to be 6 of one, half-dozen of the other.
Personally, I like seeing a train just sitting there waiting for me to amble onto it at whatever pace I like, instead of the mad scramble I usually go through.
In actuallity, M-F during the day there is not much difference. The major effect is during late nights, as the train will now leave the station 5 minutes before the ferry arrives, giving riders a 20 minute delay in getting to their destinations. Since the ferry runs once an hour late nights, this has caused people to loose an hour's sleep to arrive at work on time (such as myself and I work for TA).
How do I get to la Guardia airport on the subway, leaving from Wall street?
Does the subway even go to La Guardia?
Thanks!
Julie, Is that a retorical question ?
In case you're serious ... take the N/R line out of Wall Street to Astoria (you'll need to be on the N outside of NYC) at Astoria Blvd, next to last stop pick up the M60 bus. Use a MetroCard for one fare.
Mr t__:^)
Julie,
I would also suggest take the 4 train from Wall St to 42 Street Grand Central, go downstairs and take the 7 train towards Flushing (make sure it's the local) to 74 St-Broadway in Jackson Heights and catch the Q33(LaGuardia - except Marine Air Terminal) or Q47 (LaGuardia - Marine Air Terminal only). I believe this route is more direct, faster, and fewer stops (15 stops versus 19). Additionally, IMHO, I think this route is better after hours (more service, better neighborhoods, etc.) Have a nice trip.
Oops, you can actually take either the 4 or the 5 train from Wall Street to 42 Street Grand Central.
And if you're at the eastern end of Wall Street (near William), you can get on the 7th Avenue (2 or 3) and take that to Times Square for the #7. If it's evening rush hour, remember to take the #7 LOCAL only.
If you are at Rector St. (the west end of Wall St., sort of) on the N and R, take either to Times Square and then as above. In fact the R (not the N) goes to "Roosevelt Avenue-Jackson Hts.", where you can get the Q33 also.
The Q33 runs every 10-15 minutes and the M60 from Astoria runs every half hour so the M60 is actually a bad choice.
If you know enough about the subway to get the E or F north of Wall St, take either one to Roosevelt Avenue in Queens for the same Q33 bus. It's a little faster than the #7 (remember you need the LOCAL), but may not be as easy to get to from "Wall St."
-------------------------------------------
Summary:
E,F,R to "Roosevelt Ave-Jackson Hts."
- or -
Anything to a 42 St. station, then 7 (Local) to "74 St.-Bway" in Queens (which is the same place as "Roosevelt Ave-Jackson Hts", just named differently)
Then: Q33 bus to LaGuardia Airport. Use the same metrocard and ride the bus for free.
Does anyone know which lines and stations were used in the filming of "The Warriors"
The backdrop for the opening titles (the express train skipping stations) was filmed on the Fulton St. line.
Hoyt-Schermerhorn was used for the platform sequences at 96th St. The mezzanine at Union Square, as well as the platform on the Canarsie line, were also used. There are also two other brief scenes shot at Union Square: one was on one of the platforms of the Broadway line, where the "to 14th St. subway" placard is visible. The other was looking down at a #4 train from one of the walkways above the IRT Lexington Ave. line.
R-27/30s were used throughout the film. The D train pulling into Stillwell Ave. at the very beginnning appears to be made up of R-42s. Very little, if any attention was paid to train markings. At one point, a train marked as an M is seen pulling into a station with the camera at platform level.
Some footage was added at the beginning when the film was edited for television. It shows the Warriors gathered on the boardwalk at Coney Island in broad daylight plotting their trip to the Bronx. My video copy does not include this footage.
Steve, Thanks very much for the info.
There is one scene however where our heros are being chased by a bunch of skinheads in a bus. They race up the stairs pased startled passengers and onto a waiting train. Do you know this scene and where was it filmed?
This scene while the movie makers want us to believe was staged on the # 4 line actually appears to have been filmed on the J. If you watch the scences closely you will see QJ, JJ and J cranks on the trains which the Warriors board as they are being chased. Also the line runs alongside a cemetery which is also shown in the movie as the I does.
It certainly does seem as though that scene was filmed beneath the Broadway-Brooklyn el. As I mentioned previously, R-27/30s were used almost exclusively in subway scenes, so it would have been impossible to use an IRT station as a backdrop. In the aforementioned scene, you can see an illuminated "Ninth Ave." sign on one of the cars as the gang members scramble aboard the train. Near the end of the film, on the last leg of their journey back to Coney Island, you can see "QB/Local via Bridge" in the route slot. One thing I'm curious about: about midway through the film, we see the Warriors scurrying to catch yet another train after a scrape with another rival gang; this is when the young lady goes along with them, after the Molotov coctail is thrown. Which station are they boarding at?
If anyone has watched the opening of NYPD BLUE each week for the past five seasons, the last shot before they freeze on the detective's shield is the SAME as the opening of the Warriors where a camera is placed at the front of an express train going through a local station. This looks like the shot was taken on the Queens IND line (station tile style and layout give this a way, or else Fulton IND or some station like Spring on the 8th Avenue). It seems that Bochco and company are also Warriors fans. Rent the Warriors and watch BLUE, you cannot tell the difference between the two shots.
I don't watch NYPD Blue, so I can't vouch for the opening shot. As for The Warriors, the opening express footage was done on the Fulton St. line. At one point, the train goes through the Nostrand Ave. station. One other way to identify the Fulton St. line is the fact that there are short crash walls between the express and local tracks for at least part of the line - similar to the stretch beginning halfway through 110th St and lasting until 125th St. along St. Nicholas Ave. As I recall, these crash walls can be seen at the Lafayette, Clinton-Washington, and Franklin Ave stations.
Looks like....Wyckoff Avenue ("M" line)
Correct me if I'm wrong.
Thanks. Next time I'm watching the movie, I'll be on the lookout.
Today when I looked at the map of train routes in Manhattan, I noticed a yellow S shuttle between 34st and 21st. I thought the B and Q went there. The map showed the B and Q terminating at 57st. Switching terminals again?
How about the ROW from 57st to 21st? Will it be abandoned.
Also to add to that question, what about the S train that is running from 57th street (Under the East river?)-(with a stop at Roosevelt Island) and into Queens. Is that going to remain in service or is it going to be taken out of service. Is the "S" tunnel under central park going to continue to be used?
I also noticed that the B and Q now do terminate at 57th street and that the tunnel that the B and Q used to go into queens is being used by the "S" train.
The track roadbed between 57th St/7th Ave and 21st - Queensbridge is being replaced because it is severly deteriorated. This has reduced capacity on this part of the line to one track, with the shuttle running on this track in both directions. The shuttle originally terminated at 57th St/7th Ave, and someone in the MTA realized it could be extended to 34th/7th Ave without impacting service and in fact making it more convenient for Queensbridge passengers. This is supposed to go on, I believe, for about 2 years.
--Mark
Is there a map that shows the S shuttle going to 34th St? It does go there, but I thought even the latest maps only showed it going to 57th St. If they have printed another revised version since the March map, that makes the third version released this year (and the fourth version printed since Dec. 1997, the first of which was never distributed).
The 6th Ave. tracks to and from Queensbridge are being rebuilt using "traditional" techniques because the experimental approach used to build them in 1989 (bonding rail directly to the roadbed, without ties) turned out not to be reliable.
But don't they do this on some uptown portions of the 1, and at Grand Street? Why haven't those turned out to be duds?
Ther May 1998 edition shows the change in this shuttle. The Tracks on the Archer Extension also use the no ties method. To my untrained eye it looks like they'll need work too (if not already being done.)
Where the opening titles to the above 1977 film were taken. Where did John Travolta travel to and from on the RR train at night?. Which part of NY did he go home to and where was the shop he worked in? Where did his dancer girl friend move to?
Come on, someone must recognise these scenes. The film was just recently shown again here on Engish TV
OK, growing up in Bensonhurst and absolutely hating the movie when it came out, and still do, I'll give it my best shot:
The opening shot is along 86th Street near 20th Avenue, where the B West End Line runs overhead. I think there is an R38 model subway car making the turn onto New Utrecht Avenue in the background.
As far as the RR, the club where he danced, 2001, was located in Bay Ridge, and the RR ran up and down 4th Avenue in Bay Ridge and would bring him into New York City, where the girl lived. The shots of him coming home are in an R27-30 model subway car.
Please feel free to correct me where I'm wrong.
Thanks ever so much. When I am over in NY next (which will probably be the Autumn)I want to visit the location of the opening shot and check it out. Not that I am a fan of the film or the actors it is just that I love Pizza an in the opening shots he buys two slices which look delicious.
Thanks again
Just take the B train towards Coney Island and get off at 20th Avenue. Enjoy your pizza!
The shop was on 86th Street in Bensonhurst. He was supposed to live in Bensonhurst, but the house they used was in Bay Ridge. The dancer moved to New York.
When will the Transit Authority remove the [non-air conditioned] R-33s from the 7 trains for the summer?
When will the Transit Authority remove the [non-air conditioned] R-33s from the 7 trains for the summer?
BTW--I don't see what the big deal is--making the train 10-air conditioned cars long. Thirty years ago, there were NO air conditioned trains!!!!!
why even have the cars period. if ya dont need them during summer than why do you need them during winter?
Why not get rid of all the cars and walk from station to station?
Trust me, that 11th car is necessary. The summer is generaly cosidered a light riding period so the 11th car is not necessary. In the summer very few people would ride in that car, and if the TA riding stats are correct its not needed.
The more the better. What about the E,F,G being shut down on the weekends. Everybody was told to use the 7. One more car carries more people then if it was'nt there.
You are right. If there service disruptions continue in Queens they will most likely keep the 11th car as necessary thru the summer.
They could run 11-car trains during the summer before and after Met games. At least they used to before the cars were rebuilt. When I rode out to Shea in the early 70s to see the Mets, Flushing trains were 11 cars long.
Because the 7 has heavy ridership and NYCT needs the passenger capacity.
In addition to standard commuter patterns during the summer, you have
- Mets games
- US Open
-- Mark
In 1999 is the williamsburg bridge closing to train traffic?If so what will they do with the J,M,Z trains?
I just got my ERA NY Div. Bulletin today, and there was an article on this. Trains from Queens will terminate at Marcy, and some at Myrtle, but they don't know which at this time. It mentoned nothing about the Essex St side. At Marcy, they will build a temporary island platform over the middle track, a bridge at the end of the station connecting the platforms (the station will only hold 6 car trains), and get this--a walkway over the Manhattan bound track and stairway to the bus terminal.
A bus shuttle from Williamsburgh Bridge Plaza to Essex & Delancey could work if
- you got lotsa buses
- you closed one of the 2 lane Williamsburgh Bridge roadways to accommodate this shuttle
--Mark
I heard that when the bridge closes the tracks some J/Z trains will be goin over the L line from Broadway Junction to 8th AVe
I doubt it. They wont build a TEMPORARY connection needed to avoid the rather cumbersome switching that is required..
That won't happen because there is no physical connection. What will happen will be 6 car J&M trains on the Brooklyn & Queens side with additional service provided by the cars "saved" on the L.
isnt there a physical connection between the L and J/Z at bway junction?????
Yes there is. Through the maze and framework of elavated track, it's possible for J/Z trains to merge or connect to the L line.
Yes. But when coming from Jamaica, the train would have to pass through the "J's" Station, Crossover and reverse to take the flyover to Canarsie on the "L", run down to Atlantic, reverse and crossover to the Manhattan bound, and then return back through the "L's" statiion at the Junction.
I do not think rush hour service could handle this manover smoothly. The interchange favours movement to and from Canarsie, from and to Willy B.
I was up on the Willy B last week, photographing trains. I intend to throw a new page together shortly with the photos, I'll let you know when it's done.
-Hank
I've been over the bridge several times lately doing rsearch for my forthcoming J train page. It seems that NYCT is already doign preliminary work for the new train structure.
I look foward to your new activities on the trains that cross the WillyB. Also I'm curious to know what the TA plans are for the infrastructure.
-Garfield
After the current contract is done, sometime in 1999 the trains will be taken off tyhe bridge for "six months" during which the rapid transit structure from Essex to Marcy will be demolished and then rebuilt. Work will go on 24/7 and no demolition will start until the new steel is actually on site.
To Busbuffs,
I really need your help Busbuffs, if you happen to have slides of WMATA running on NYCT property from late 1980 until mid 1981, please post it on Subtalk.
I would greatly appreciate it Busbuffs.
Thank you,
Mike
Mike,
You might give Andy Grahl a try at 718-445-3100, ext 3404. He publ a celandar of buses in NYC area.
Mr t__:^)
Does anyone have detailed Routing changes for the Downtown Area regarding Changes in One way Streets ,,Please call contact Steve LOwenthal 914 668 9218 X Collect
I wish I did. Sorry! Welcome back Steve!
Does anyone have a complete listing of all Destination Signs forthe Linberty Lines Carrier in the Bronx Please call Steve ,,COllect at 914 668 9218
I have a roll sign from a Liberty Lines fishbowl. Would that help?
Chris,
I have a NYCT/NYCDOT 16 page listing of the seven "Private" bus lines, but since I work for one of them it may be that I'm not supose to give it out, so give me the route number and I'm be glad to tell you what the sign is supose to say.
Did you try calling Liberty direct 914-969-6900. You can at least get a schedule from them that will give you a clue of the routes.
Mr t__:^)
Yesterday, we were borading the eastbound trains to Frankford at 34th Street whent the train pulled in, with smoke billowing out from under it (looked kinda like the effect the M-4 adds have in the M-3 cars)and as it pulled forward we could see sparks brightly under the platform.
For some reason, though everyone saw the sparks and smoke, we boarded the train and took a seat. As the smoke continued to get worse, they flashed the lights a couple of times and turned off the fans. We asked a uniformed SEPTA agent what should we do... calm as ever, "I guess we should get off."
So as we all exited the train, and stood looking at it, they closed the doors and pulled ahead to 30th. We just watched it, but it appeared that the train was no longer smoking when it moved.
The guy said people will just like the empty train at 30th and board it as if nothing happened.
Meanwhile back at the station, it seemed as the smoke was continuing to billow from the track areas... the lights created eerie efeects, but that smell!
There was no airflow in that station. Are there any emergency plans in effect to handle something like this? I remember in an earlier post hearing about fire supression systems, but they never run the entire length of the train at the stations. Someone else told me that the pipes in the center of the train actually ground it, which does not make much sense, since it should already be grounded.
Anyway, upon returning home, I found out that this has happened qutie a bit recently. Any comments or similar experiences?
(Incidently, it was worth the wait, the next car through was a M-4.)
i knew those m-4 are a piece of shit
oops, I guess I did not make that clear, an M-3 had the problem, not an M-4. I was commenting that the smoke rising from the train looked like the adds for the M-4s.
The "ads" that DB was discussing are posted on virtually all M-3's and all M-4 cars(did you know there are FIVE M-4 trains now?).
I had a fun experience with them on Friday, riding the same train of M-4's from 69th to Frankford four times.
What a sloth I am.
Why are city bus stops so close together?
Are the bus system ment for people who don't want to walk. It would be more speedy if they were further apart.
I awlays thought they were a bit too close also. Many areas are not too close, but in Manhattan the stops on north-south routes are so close that the buses barely break 20 MPH before reaching the next stop. The Manhattan X-town routes are not so bad because most of the east-west blocks are pretty long. I think they're spaced the farthest apart in Queens which why I enjoy riding on Queens routes.
Exacty HOW MANY OF THOSE TRAINS ARE OUT THERE on THE A LINE?
THIS PRESENT TIME .......... AND COULD THEY BE FOUND ON ANY OTHER LINE
I am told that you will never see the cars on the A line again. This is because one set is permanently removed from service to provide spare parts for the other 2 sets. When they run, they'll be on the C. It is probably prohibatively expensive to purchase spare parts dor such a small fleet of cars. The R110A is another story. One 5 car set is in 207 Yard outside, one inside. My source doesn't know their future.
The R-110B's? There were only 9. And as I inderstand they are out of commision for now.
Running on another line? Maybe(but not the IRT-they have their own which were also put out of commision for brake problems). Glad I got to try them once before they hit the heap.