SubTalk Archive 1/1998

Thread title: Manhattan Bridge Problems - Need Ideas for MTA (761145)
Started on Mon Jan 5 22:01:46 1998, by Mike Rothenberg

Subject: Manhattan Bridge Problems - Need Ideas for MTA
Message Number: 761145
Posted by: Mike Rothenberg
Date: Mon Jan 5 22:01:46 1998

The approach noted earlier by Larry L. & Eric D. (using both IND (Cranberry and Rutgers) tunnels with connections at both the Bklyn. & Manhattan ends) seems worthy of serious analysis. (Scroll down the listings to find their earlier comments on topic.) A criticism noted by one was that construction of the Cranberry connections would cause major disruption. This argument fails: construction of the long- awaited (and much longer) 2nd Ave. subway would really cause disrup- tions. If the city could handle that, the argument can't be used for the Cranberry connections. What do you think? Would it really cost a billion$$$ to build Crandberry/Rutgers? Any other ideas for MTA?
- Subject: Re: Manhattan Bridge Problems - Need Ideas for MTA
- Message Number: 761252
- Posted by: Taxpayer
- Date: Mon Jan 5 22:07:10 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]Manhattan Bridge Problems - Need Ideas for MTA posted by Mike Rothenberg on December 25, 1997 at 00:40:03: Get ready for a 21st century without the Manhattan Bridge. The long series of temporary closures dating back to 1983 will be made permanent. Existing tunnels (with improved signals) can handle the additional subway traffic. Neither the city or state can afford to build a new structure or a replacement tunnel. Things will be more difficult for Brooklyn passengers, but not to the catastrophic level cried about on this site. As for the apparent high priority given to a GCT-LIRR connection, politically and economically Long Islanders have a lot of power. But that project will also be a waste of money, Everyone wants someone else to pay for their pet projects.
  - Subject: Re: Manhattan Bridge Problems - Need Ideas for MTA
  - Message Number: 761319
  - Posted by: Larry Littlefield
  - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:18:20 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Manhattan Bridge Problems - Need Ideas for MTA posted by Taxpayer on December 29, 1997 at 09:04:14: I have already paid for it, and them some! Check out the economics section of NYC City Planning's Annual Report on Social Indicators, if they ever get around to publishing it. I write it. Or check out back issues (not last year, an election year, when I didn't say anything. You will find that New York City's taxes, as a share of the income of its residents, is nearly double the national average, but its spending on transportation, education, parks, etc is well below the national average -- year after year after year. Where does the money go? The poor? Are you kidding? Of the social services spending funded by the city's tax dollars, only 15 percent went to the poor in cash. And that was in FY 1994 (they don't seem to want to publish this much anymore), before welfare reform started cutting people off. No. Much of the money goes to the health care services and non-profit social service agencies in the city, mostly through a Medicaid program which pays many times what every other state does for the same thing. These organizations kick back a share of the cash, mostly to the city Democratic legislators, who don't give a damn about anyone or anything else. Most of the rest goes to fund gold-plated public services and overpaid state and local workers elsewhere in the state. New York City has a big local government? Hardly. Local government payroll (including the T.A. and CUNY) accounts for about ten percent of all earnings at work in the city, compared with upwards of 15 percent in the rest of the state. No wonder New York City has to pay up 20 percent of the cost of its Medicaid program, while local government in the rest of the state pays only 15 percent. No wonder with 37 percent of the students, our schools get just 30 to 35 percent of the money. Until they created this whole new form of school aid (STAR), which the city will receive only 27 percent sometime in the future (less today, more promised later -- maybe). That is why with 40 percent of the state's residents living here and 54 percent working here, the city gets only 31 percent of state transportation aid -- not including the state road workers, none of whom work here. That is why the city contributes to the T.A., but no one asks Nassau to contribute to the LIRR. That's the deal, with Republicans and Democrats both in. They see no future for the state, certainly not the city, by they are kept in office by their cozy arrangement and by ballot laws which prevent anyone else from running. If anyone, they represent the people who are moving out (why not have the nation's biggest debt). The victims are anyone who has lived here less than 20 years, and anyone who intends to live here more than ten years more. Yuppies? Immigrants? Latinos? West Indians? Suckers. Then there are those of us who happen to like living here (everything except the government is good here) who are stuck just the same. With Cuomo in, the medico-industrial complex got more -- its employment rose from 300,000 in 1983 to 460,000 today, and its still going up. See all those new hospital buildings? See those crumbling schools and rusting bridges? Duh! With Pataki in, the suburbs and upstate get more -- with revenues down the city gots cut, with revenues up the money is spent elsewhere -- even though the revenues are generated here. Pataki hates this city, but he is doing NYC less damage than its own representatives! Then there are all those nice state laws, and the leeches who know how to work them, which force us to waste what little we get. I met a T.A. engineer at a state campground this summer, and he told me that at least one-third of all T.A. capital spending is wasted/ripped-off. That's right. Lawyers bid low and win the bids, the sub-contract the job. Their role is to sue the T.A. and put documentation in place to "prove" the late, lousy work and costs overruns are not their fault. If a private company was treated like that, it would never do business with that entity again. But the TA must -- its their legal right! And how about the Wicks Law, which add 20 percent and causes some jobs never to be finished. The Vampire State. The Mayor has carried on like a nut and accomplished little (I give him great credit for the little in the report, since the alternative was for things to get worse). But there is only one way out. Cut state taxes, and eliminate the state role in most public services. Eliminate all federal transportation spending. Break up the MTA -- if Long Island wants the Grand Central Connection, use a dedicated commuter tax surcharge to fund it. Raise local taxes to make up 80 percent of the difference, and start spending the money in sensible ways. You pay for yours, we'll pay for ours, and we'll cut out the middlemen in Albany and Washington. Then we can afford to pay for the infrastructure improvements made routinely everywhere else in the country.
    - Subject: Re: Manhattan Bridge Problems - Need Ideas for MTA
    - Message Number: 761333
    - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
    - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:18:55 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: Manhattan Bridge Problems - Need Ideas for MTA posted by Taxpayer on December 29, 1997 at 09:04:14: Well, if the existing tunnels can handle the load, where are the B, D and Q trains gonna go?? How are they going to get to the 6th Avenue trunk line? What line would service Grand Street? --Mark
      - Subject: Re: Manhattan Bridge Problems - Need Ideas for MTA
      - Message Number: 761472
      - Posted by: Christopher Rivera
      - Date: Mon Jan 12 11:02:50 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Manhattan Bridge Problems - Need Ideas for MTA posted by Mike Rothenberg on December 25, 1997 at 00:40:03: The 2nd Avenue subway will be a big help to one line the 4,5,6 trains hold at least 100,000 passengers a day. With the LIRR coming to Grand Central that will double conpasity on those trains the 2 anenue line will be a great help

Thread title: The Best & Worst Subway Lines (761147)
Started on Mon Jan 5 22:02:03 1998, by Steve

Subject: The Best & Worst Subway Lines
Message Number: 761147
Posted by: Steve
Date: Mon Jan 5 22:02:03 1998

The TA uses 4 different sets of numbers to help determine which lines are the best and which are the worst. They are: MDBF ..... Mean Distance Between Failures OTP ..... On Time Performance PEER Evaluations PES ..... Passenger Environmental Survey. I'd really be interested in an unofficial survey of how you view the various lines of the system. A simple, Which one is best (or worst) and 10-25 words on why.
- Subject: Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines
- Message Number: 761152
- Posted by: Nick
- Date: Mon Jan 5 22:02:25 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines posted by Peter Rosa on December 25, 1997 at 15:42:08: Even thought it's very, very, crowded most of the time, I give the #4 high marks. I usually don't wait long for it, and it seems to be a fast express train. If only there was a second avenue subway, this line would be excellent! The #7 is good too, except of course for the crowds. But I am looking foward to R-142's to replace the old cars...I think the line will run a little better with new trains. The G definitly sucks! I've waited up to a half hour for the train as well..and it's a boring ride all right. Also, I find that the R train is quite boring. It's a very long route, and it's a local. But It runs just a bit better than the G.-NICK
  - Subject: Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines
  - Message Number: 761159
  - Posted by: Lorenzo
  - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:02:50 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]The Best & Worst Subway Lines posted by Steve on December 25, 1997 at 01:51:45: My vote for the worst line would be split between the A, the E, the F and the R. The A train gets the nod because it's overrun by the homeless. Some of the cars smell so bad that they are uninhabitable. The E train is second for the same reason. In fact, the E seems to have more homeless than the A train. The F & R really suck. It seems that half of the trains on both lines break down more often than on any line in the system. The F train, is also filthy beyond reason.
    - Subject: Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines
    - Message Number: 761161
    - Posted by: charlie muller
    - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:02:56 1998
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines posted by Nick on December 25, 1997 at 16:17:34: the best for me is the d train on the late night sked. there are on time and no delays being i work 12am to 8am. i always catch the 10:34 pm train out of bedford park blvd to go south and it is always on time. #4 train also as the d train if there are any delays on the d, i can always take the #4 train. also it goes by yankee stadium and hangs a left before going into the tunnel to 149th street. the worst is also the d train on the weekend going home at 8am. if one is missed on saturday or sunday morning for me at 47th-50th rockefeller station, i have to wait at least 15 to 20 minutes to go home.
      - Subject: Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines
      - Message Number: 761166
      - Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
      - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:03:14 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines posted by Nick on December 25, 1997 at 16:17:34: You know what? The only trains that are never outdoors are the E, R, C, and 42nd Street Shuttle. All the others are outdoors at least somewhere.
        
        Subject: Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines
        Message Number: 761174
        Posted by: Wayne Johnson
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:03:36 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines posted by charlie muller on December 26, 1997 at 04:34:20: Best (One of the best) I'd have to say the #7, because of it's great elevated express runs in Queens and in terms of service, it's an isolated line and it rarely gets delayed because of other trains. The only things it's missing is a fast tunnel stretch. The #2,4 & 5 also get high marks for fast express runs and elevated runs also.
        
        Subject: Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines
        Message Number: 761176
        Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:03:44 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines posted by Wayne Johnson on December 26, 1997 at 13:33:07: My favorite is the Brighton Express, the Q train, because it zips through Brooklyn on the elevated track that is not over a street, then into open cut north of Avenue H, then over the Manhattan Bridge. Of course, I spent my childhood 3 blocks from the Beverley Road station, so I guess my old loyalty is showing. My second best is the #1 Broadway -- for social reasons. All those out-of-town Columbia students getting on at 116 St, full of anticipation of a day or evening's outing in NYC. They are the happiest and most talkative people in all NY, it seems. I like the #4 from Utica to Woodlawn: fast in Bklyn and Manhattan, straight as an arrow on Lexington Ave, you can see Yankee games a bit from 161 St., and it's an elevated on a busy, busy street in the Bronx. Plus, it's got that IRT fast feel because it's narrow and loud. To me the J and M are the worst because of infrastructure. The J has that awful Z-shaped section at Crescent St. (It is -- unbelieveably -- an improvement made in the 1930s or 1940s from the original structure, which was worse.)And the Bway-Bklyn el is just too old. The G should not be the worst because it is as new as most of the rest of the IND lines. But apparently the service on it is awful, according to postings here. That's a real shame because it just takes extra trains rather than reconstruction to make it as good as the other lines.
        
        Subject: Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines
        Message Number: 761178
        Posted by: Sammy
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:03:50 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]The Best & Worst Subway Lines posted by Steve on December 25, 1997 at 01:51:45: Steve: Nice to hear from you. Happy holidays. We know which is the worst. The G. Why? Its really simple. The MTA doesn't give a damn about the G or the people in Greenpoint/Williamsburgh. Bus and Train service is a joke. There is no reason whatsoever that the G should be terminated a Court Square at night/Weekends. The corridor between 23/Ely and Court Square is unsafe, and the long walk makes it all the more likely that you will miss your connection, especially at night. Hey MTA: Get your heads out of your collective asses and do something about it before Greenpoint/Williamsburgh start decaying economically because of a lack of mass transit.
        
        Subject: Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines
        Message Number: 761179
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:03:53 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 26, 1997 at 16:18:35: The Crescent street zig-zag on the J/Z dates from 1893. The only thing done about it in 1930 and 40 was talk about eliminating it, not to mention in the 50's and 60's as well. It was originally a connection to street cars running on Jamaica avenue, which wasn't such a problem, but when they extended the El in 1919 East from Cypress Hills, they left it in!
        
        Subject: Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines
        Message Number: 761182
        Posted by: a.pardi
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:04:02 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines posted by Sammy on December 26, 1997 at 17:50:04: You think its bad now with the G terminating at court square supposedly when the 63rd st connection is completed the g (from what i've been told) will terminate permanently at courst sq.
        
        Subject: Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines
        Message Number: 761184
        Posted by: subway-buff
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:04:10 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]The Best & Worst Subway Lines posted by Steve on December 25, 1997 at 01:51:45: I like the J for the elevated section. The view from the Willie B is tremendous ands I love the old fashioned light fixture(musuem curator- you reading this!!)which are going away in favor of new sodium vapor lamps. I also love the Old Myrtle El over Broadway Myrtle, Eastern Parkway Junction of J,L, plus A,C. The curve just past Alabama ave near Crescent street is fascinating. I also like the D From Manhattan bridge to Coney Island. The worst- the Central Park West and the IND Manhattan/Bronx (sorry, steve!) due to bland stations with no "ornamentation" such as is found on the iRT (My favorite Line( or the BMT). I am referring to the stations- not the trains being run! (Your cars are the best!!-even if they are not Lo-V Cars from the IRT :-) They are starting to remedy the bland IND such as Canal/8th ave and what they are doing at WTC.(I do like the IND metrocard fare control railings better than the IRT railings.
        
        Subject: Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines
        Message Number: 761187
        Posted by: Peter Rosa
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:04:18 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 26, 1997 at 16:18:35: I guess I'll have to speak up in favor of the under-appreciated L line. Fast? No. Scenic? No. But it is a reliable workhorse sort of line, providing the only service in much of its Brooklyn territory, and offering excellent connections in Manhattan - it connects to everything but the 6th Avenue expresses.
        
        Subject: Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines
        Message Number: 761191
        Posted by: Timothy Speer
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:04:29 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines posted by Lorenzo on December 26, 1997 at 01:58:01: The E and the R are popular with homeless people because they never go outside, and threfore are probably the warmest trains in the system.
        
        Subject: Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines
        Message Number: 761199
        Posted by: Mike B
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:04:58 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines posted by Peter Rosa on December 26, 1997 at 22:44:08: The L is my favorite between Rockaway Parkway and Broadway Junction because of its uniqueness. Between Rockaway Parkway and midway between East 105th Street and New Lots, it runs on its own surface Right-of-Way. Between New Lots and Sutter Avenue it runs on an elevated structure alongside the LIRR freight tracks. From Sutter Avenue to Broadway Junction, the Atlantic Avenue complex is amazing to look at especially when looking out the front window. The only other unique section of this line is at Wilson Avenue. The Wilson Avenue station for Manhattan bound trains is in a tunnel. The station for Canarsie bound trains is above ground. When I was growing up, there used to be a grade crossing at East 105th Street. I believe it was removed in the early 70's. When that existed, it made the L (or Canarsie Line back then) a lot of fun. Also, at Livonia Avenue the #3 train passes over the elevated L train on a higher elevated structure.
        
        Subject: Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines
        Message Number: 761206
        Posted by: Eric B
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:05:19 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 26, 1997 at 16:18:35: Because of the Crescent curve and others, the entire eastern div. (J, L, M) for 25 years has been restricted to older equipment, as everything made in the 70's and 80's was 75ft. Even the 110B test train, which was made 67 feet to address that problem is banned, because the geniuses placed the wheels differently. So now, they've given up on long cars, and with bucket and cross-seating designs also scrapped, the new cars that are finally to be assigned to the L and M will probably be almost identical to the R-40m/42's that provide almost all of the service. As radially close to Manhattan as it is, Ridgewood is the most disconnected neighborhood around. To get to lower Manhattan on weekdays, is on of the finest services, except for having to wait for the M to come from the southern div, where it suffers delays the J and Z from Broad St do not, and then to wait at Bway-Myrtle for express trains in both directions to cross over on the grade crossing. But to get anywhere else at any other time is horrible. The M is just a shuttle. They J and L only go to lower Manhattan, and to get to midtown, uptown, or the other side of Brooklyn can take up to three transfers, and worse, when there are service diversions, which on the L have been many. The buses to dwntown Brooklyn are incredibly slow rides. The fact that they took down the Myrtle el for a Metrotech project that wouldn't even begin for another two decades shows what they thought of this side of town. And even that line provided no direct service to midtown Manhattan. What they need to do is use the outer Chrystie connection to run trains from 6th or 8th Av's out here. Even if that didn't work for rush hours 25 years ago, it could still be used for evenings and weekends now. There should also be limited stop service on the B-54 (to replace Myrtle el.), and the B-38.
        
        Subject: Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines
        Message Number: 761215
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:05:39 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]The Best & Worst Subway Lines posted by Steve on December 25, 1997 at 01:51:45: The best line? If I were a commuter (I used to be but I'm not anymore) I'd have to say the 4/5 lines. Fast, frequent service. Always seemed to be there when I needed one. As a railfan, the J line. Lots of history and a long meandering elevated through Brooklyn and Queens. As a tourist, the N or R lines. Goes everywhere I need to. Proved that to myself when I took the wife and kids into Manhattan last week. The worst line? As a commuter, I'd have to say the N & R. They haven't been called Never and Rarely for nothing. The N's a long ride in Brooklyn. I can't speak for the G although it rates up there as among the worst as well, simply because I have seldomly ridden it. As a railfan, not counting shuttles, I'd have to say the G on this one. There's just nothing to look at, save for Smith/9th Sts. As a tourist, I'd say the D line. I've been on many a time where I have not been comfortable with some of the rowdy youth who I've seen on this line. --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines
        Message Number: 761239
        Posted by: Sammy
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:06:47 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines posted by a.pardi on December 26, 1997 at 19:17:51: I understand that too. But they had better not, because we (and I do mean the residents of Greenpoint/Williamsburgh) will sue the pants off the MTA if they deny us service. Let this be a warning to the MTA!!!!!!
        
        Subject: Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines
        Message Number: 761265
        Posted by: Charles Fiori
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:07:34 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines posted by Gary Jacobi on December 26, 1997 at 18:07:17: For all you mapmeisters out there, check out an early edition of the post 1967 map, prob. the first one to include the 'KK'. It had the Alabama Av. station by itself on the lead up to the 'S' curve, and then all the other stations scrunched on the far side of the 'S'. That was a pretty bad map anyway.
        
        Subject: Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines
        Message Number: 761779
        Posted by: Adam
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:10:00 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]The Best & Worst Subway Lines posted by Steve on December 25, 1997 at 01:51:45: I think that the best subway line is the N train, for a number of reasons. First, it offers a unique combination of scenery along its route. In Astoria it is an el, in Manhattan it's underground, and in Brooklyn it's an open cut. Also, it spans a great distance, going all the way from Ditmars in Astoria to Coney Island. Finally, I believe it's the safest train because it really doesn't go through any bad areas. I feel the most comfortable and enjoyable when I'm on the N train. As for the worst train, I think that the G takes the cake. It is a short, boring line that is probably the slowest in the city. I've waited upwards of half an hour for this train. Plus, it goes through some rather bad areas in Brooklyn. I would not not reccommend this line to anybody.
        
        Subject: Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines
        Message Number: 761780
        Posted by: Peter Rosa
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:10:12 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines posted by Adam on December 25, 1997 at 11:23:55: I'll agree that the N is one of the better lines. Besides the points you've noted, another feature of the N is that it's convenient to many places of interest in Manhattan - not long ago, I read a posting to the effect that the N (along with the R) is probably the single most useful line for tourists. I also would give the 7 fairly high marks, though rush hour crowds (generally worse than on the N) can be a drawback.

Thread title: Brake Systems (761150)
Started on Mon Jan 5 22:02:16 1998, by Steve

Subject: Brake Systems
Message Number: 761150
Posted by: Steve
Date: Mon Jan 5 22:02:16 1998

Many years ago, one set of R-44s were equipped with Hydraulic brakes. I believe the system was called ABEX. It was a miserable failure - especially when the train went over 3rd rail gaps, hence the train was 'normalized'. Does anyone know of a similar ststem which is currently in use?

Thread title: NY Subway (761153)
Started on Mon Jan 5 22:02:28 1998, by Nicholas Cartwright

Subject: NY Subway
Message Number: 761153
Posted by: Nicholas Cartwright
Date: Mon Jan 5 22:02:28 1998

Could someone tell me something about NY Subway, like is it anything like London Underground and I hope for your the people in New Yorks sake it is not like London Underground
- Subject: Re: NY Subway
- Message Number: 761154
- Posted by: GarfieldA
- Date: Mon Jan 5 22:02:32 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]NY Subway posted by Nicholas Cartwright on December 25, 1997 at 16:18:25: The one and thing needed to tell you is: "It's the best !!". When I was in London about 2yrs ago and I rode the L. Underground, I said to myself that NY Transit is way ahead !!. The span of miles and large fleet we have as compared to the Underground. But one thing I really like was the commuter railroads which do an excess of 90 miles per hour and which also took me about an hour from London to Northampton..
  - Subject: Re: NY Subway
  - Message Number: 761155
  - Posted by: Bootsy
  - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:02:35 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: NY Subway posted by GarfieldA on December 25, 1997 at 21:33:07: It's hard to really explain the New York Subway -- to get a real idea of what it's like, you should come over to New York and experience it firsthand.
    - Subject: Re: NY Subway
    - Message Number: 761290
    - Posted by: GERALD
    - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:17:13 1998
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: NY Subway posted by Bootsy on December 25, 1997 at 21:53:19: IS IT ANY THING LIKE THE UNDERGROUND? I'LL SAY THIS. RIDE ALL 25 NYC SUBWAY LINES END TO END. IF YOU COME UP ALIVE NEITHER HELL NOR HIGH WATER CAN STOP YOU FROM ANYTHING. YOU'D BE READY TO TAKE ON JANET RENO.
      - Subject: Re: NY Subway
      - Message Number: 761292
      - Posted by: Bootsy
      - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:17:17 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: NY Subway posted by GERALD on December 30, 1997 at 12:47:39: Well, I don't know about Janet Reno -- that's kind of pushing it. :-)

Thread title: Re: NY Subway (track map?) (761162)
Started on Mon Jan 5 22:02:59 1998, by Otani-H

Subject: Re: NY Subway (track map?)
Message Number: 761162
Posted by: Otani-H
Date: Mon Jan 5 22:02:59 1998

In Reply to: [8]NY Subway posted by Nicholas Cartwright on December 25, 1997 at 16:18:25: By the way, do you happen to got any truck maps of London Underground? Track map (physical map like those of on this site) I love it, indeed. What I'm mainly interested in is that if the Circle line train and the District line train run on the same track between Gloucester Road and Tower Hill, and if they does, how they are scheduled (and trains around Earl's court too). thank you.

Thread title: Change at Ozone Park (761164)
Started on Mon Jan 5 22:03:07 1998, by aaron

Subject: Change at Ozone Park
Message Number: 761164
Posted by: aaron
Date: Mon Jan 5 22:03:07 1998

I am trying to find a copy of this book about the Long Island Railroad. Can anyone help me?
- Subject: Re: Change at Ozone Park
- Message Number: 761165
- Posted by: George
- Date: Mon Jan 5 22:03:11 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]Change at Ozone Park posted by aaron on December 26, 1997 at 08:40:38: You may try the NY Transit Museam shops in Grand Central Station or a book store in the north wing of Penn Station. I doubt you will find it Barnes and Noble. Unfortunately the place that I would have guaranteed would have a had a copy is closed, NY Bound in Rockefeller Center. Good luck in your search but this is a good book.
  - Subject: Re: Change at Ozone Park
  - Message Number: 761168
  - Posted by: Charles Fiori
  - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:03:20 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: Change at Ozone Park posted by George on December 26, 1997 at 09:52:56: If you pick up a copy of "Trains" magazine, there are several booksellers in there. One that rings a bell is "Rails & Shafts". I think he even somewhat specializes in NY area topics.
    - Subject: Re: Change at Ozone Park
    - Message Number: 761172
    - Posted by: sean
    - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:03:30 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Change at Ozone Park posted by aaron on December 26, 1997 at 08:40:38: I bought my copy at the bookstore in the LIRR side of Penn Station. They have other railroad titles too.
      - Subject: Re: Change at Ozone Park
      - Message Number: 761214
      - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
      - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:05:37 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Change at Ozone Park posted by George on December 26, 1997 at 09:52:56: Another two suggestions: - Ron's Books, a mail order outfit, usually caries it, and he usually advertises in Trains, Model Railroader & Railroad Model Craftsman. I've dealt with him before and have always been happy with him. - Pick up a copy of Model Railroader and check the list of train shows coming up in your area. SOMEONE at these shows usually specializes in railroad books. A big show I know of is coming up in February in Springfield, Mass. usually the first week in February. (Sorry - I don't have any details on it). --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: Change at Ozone Park
        Message Number: 761223
        Posted by: J Gordon
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:05:54 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Change at Ozone Park posted by aaron on December 26, 1997 at 08:40:38: Penn Books has it (NY Penn Sta LIRR concourse near K Mart)
        
        Subject: Re: Change at Ozone Park
        Message Number: 761235
        Posted by: Fernando Perez
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:06:38 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Change at Ozone Park posted by Mark S Feinman on December 27, 1997 at 21:37:42: I bought mine at the Branford Trolley museum at West Haven, Conn.
        
        Subject: Re: Change at Ozone Park
        Message Number: 761253
        Posted by: Lou from Middletown
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:07:12 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Change at Ozone Park posted by Mark S Feinman on December 27, 1997 at 21:37:42: I got mine through the RAILFAN/RAILROAD book shop.(get the feeling it's widely available?)

Thread title: Re: RJ service to Chambers St. (One more time again) (761169)
Started on Mon Jan 5 22:03:22 1998, by Carl M. Rabbin

Subject: Re: RJ service to Chambers St. (One more time again)
Message Number: 761169
Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
Date: Mon Jan 5 22:03:22 1998

In Reply to: [7]Re: RJ service to Chambers St. (One more time) posted by Bootsy on December 25, 1997 at 21:59:10: My guess is that they only ran during the 7:00 - 8:00 hour NB and 4:30 - 5:30 hour SB and only every 3rd Brighton Express train. Therefore there may have been only 5 per morning and 5 per evening. The West End local ran all day. By admitting in print that this relatively infrequent service existed might cause more disappointment than usefulness. Anyone going to Chambers St always went to DeKalb to change anyway. If the special came, it was an extra convenience. 4th Ave/West End people knew to just get off of it at Dekalb and get something else, since the West local always ran anyway from 6:00 AM to 7:00 PM. I realize I may not have written this clearly. To restate it succinctly: I think infrequent interval, short duration train schedules were just not listed in public printed material.

Thread title: Number of stations on New York Subway (761170)
Started on Mon Jan 5 22:03:26 1998, by janet

Subject: Number of stations on New York Subway
Message Number: 761170
Posted by: janet
Date: Mon Jan 5 22:03:26 1998

School General Knowledge Christmas quiz time. The question is which of the world's underground railway systems has the most stations and how many? The London Underground has 272 but I haven't been able to find a figure for New York. Can anyone help me please?
- Subject: Re: Number of stations on New York Subway
- Message Number: 761171
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Mon Jan 5 22:03:29 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Number of stations on New York Subway posted by janet on December 26, 1997 at 11:13:20: The official figure is 468. -Dave
  - Subject: Re: Number of stations on New York Subway
  - Message Number: 761175
  - Posted by: Janet
  - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:03:39 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Number of stations on New York Subway posted by David Pirmann on December 26, 1997 at 11:40:49: Thanks a lot Dave, That really helped me. Only another 53 questions to go now. Janet
    - Subject: Re: Number of stations on New York Subway
    - Message Number: 761196
    - Posted by: subway-buff
    - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:04:47 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: Number of stations on New York Subway posted by Janet on December 26, 1997 at 16:04:27: After discussions with Dave (site Host) I'd like to change the number of stations to :there are 468 normal stations, plus one station, Aqueduct rackTrack that is only one paltform (to Manhattan) and only open from 11am-7Pm when the horses are running. So- take your pick 468 or 469- both are correct.
      - Subject: Re: Number of stations on New York Subway
      - Message Number: 761198
      - Posted by: GarfieldA
      - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:04:53 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Number of stations on New York Subway posted by subway-buff on December 27, 1997 at 09:23:11: What about the old and now CLOSED Dean Street station on the Franklin Ave. Shuttle. So that makes it 468 0r 7
        
        Subject: Re: Number of stations on New York Subway
        Message Number: 761200
        Posted by: subway-buff
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:05:02 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Number of stations on New York Subway posted by GarfieldA on December 27, 1997 at 10:33:36: The number did not include Dean Street so the number stands! :-(
        
        Subject: Re: Number of stations on New York Subway
        Message Number: 761204
        Posted by: Nick
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:05:13 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Number of stations on New York Subway posted by subway-buff on December 27, 1997 at 13:15:29: If the station isn't open anymore, certainly it doesn't count. There have been rumours that the Transit Museum is going to re-open the Old City Hall station (I think that's the one) in '98 0r '99...so maybe there will be 469 (or 470) stations soon.-Nick
        
        Subject: Re: Number of stations on New York Subway
        Message Number: 761212
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:05:31 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Number of stations on New York Subway posted by Nick on December 27, 1997 at 18:02:55: 468 is the official number of stations in the NYC subway, counting Aqueduct and discounting one for the RIP Dean St station on the Franklin Shuttle. The Transit Museum did plan on reopening City Hall, but it would be a museum annex, not a station in passenger service. Also, that whole project is now up in the air with the recent (this past summer) reorganization of much of the Transit Museum's staff, so I wouldn't hold my breath on this opening. Anyone know when the Museum's Spring Calendar goes out? --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: Number of stations on New York Subway
        Message Number: 761213
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:05:35 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Number of stations on New York Subway posted by Janet on December 26, 1997 at 16:04:27: Well, this begs the question, how many cars in the NYC Subway fleet? Answer (as of a Daily News article about 2 weeks ago) is 5,917. 2 down, 51 to go ... :) --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: Number of stations on New York Subway
        Message Number: 761222
        Posted by: GarfieldA
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:05:53 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Number of stations on New York Subway posted by subway-buff on December 27, 1997 at 13:15:29: The station is not in existance anymore!!! So that's one less station from the total amount
        
        Subject: Re: Number of stations on New York Subway
        Message Number: 761232
        Posted by: Mike B
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:06:33 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Number of stations on New York Subway posted by Mark S Feinman on December 27, 1997 at 21:32:09: How many of the 468 stations are below ground vs above ground (open-cut being considered above ground)
        
        Subject: Re: Number of stations on New York Subway
        Message Number: 761285
        Posted by: ALEX
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:16:59 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Number of stations on New York Subway posted by Mark S Feinman on December 27, 1997 at 21:33:42: THE NUMBER IS 468, DEARIE. EVEN THOUGH INTERESTINGLY ENOUGH, NEW YORK, AS FAR AS TRACK MILAGE, IS NOT THE LARGEST SUBWAY SYSTEM IN THE WORLD. BELIEVE IT OR NOT THAT TITLE GOES TO........READY?......WASHINGTON D.C. THEY DID SOME SERIOUS EXTENSIONS ON THIER SUBWAYS IN 1990 AND EVEN THOUGH THEY HAVE BETWEEN 70 AND 110 STATIONS THEY HAVE ABOUT 270 MILES OF TRACK AS COMPARED TO 252 IN LONDON AND 231 IN GOOD OL' NYC. IT EVEN BEATS OUT MOSCOW, PARIS AND TOKYO!
        
        Subject: Re: Number of stations on New York Subway
        Message Number: 761286
        Posted by: Timothy Speer
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:17:03 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Number of stations on New York Subway posted by ALEX on December 30, 1997 at 12:29:28: You don't need to yell!
        
        Subject: Re: Number of stations on New York Subway
        Message Number: 761291
        Posted by: Bootsy
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:17:15 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Number of stations on New York Subway posted by Timothy Speer on December 30, 1997 at 12:37:54: I beleive the mileage for New York is 700-some odd miles of track.
        
        Subject: Re: Number of stations on New York Subway
        Message Number: 761327
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:18:38 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Number of stations on New York Subway posted by Mike B on December 28, 1997 at 16:04:20: According to the publication "New York City Transit's Facts and Figures" dated 5/95: Underground: 277 Elevated: 153 Embankment: 18 (corrected for 1997; in 1995, the Dean St station existed and would be considered embankment, so this number USED to be 20) Open Cut: 20 Total: 468 --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: Number of stations on New York Subway
        Message Number: 761328
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:18:41 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Number of stations on New York Subway posted by ALEX on December 30, 1997 at 12:29:28: You might be confusing "route miles" with "track miles". According to the publication "New York City Transit's facts and Figures", dated 5/95, page 20: Mainline Track Miles for Passenger Service: - Underground: 443 - Elevated: 156 - At grade / open cut: 57 Total: 656 miles Route Miles: - Manhattan: 71 - Queens: 42 - Bronx: 33 - Brooklyn: 84 Total: 230 miles --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: Number of stations on New York Subway
        Message Number: 761346
        Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:19:32 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Number of stations on New York Subway posted by Mark S Feinman on December 30, 1997 at 23:30:26: Um, don't you mean 19? or did they cout everything twice? -Hank
        
        Subject: Re: Number of stations on New York Subway
        Message Number: 761354
        Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:19:49 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Number of stations on New York Subway posted by ALEX on December 30, 1997 at 12:29:28: I hesitate to contradict someone so certain of his facts, but as a resident of Maryland a mere 10 miles from the DC line, I must say that we only have 85 route miles, and about 70 stations. About 15 miles more will be built over the next 5 years. It is the second largest subway system in the the US in terms of unduplicated route miles, 1/3 the size of New York and just a bit larger than Chicago, with an area population of about 3.5 million. DC itself has 500,000 people in a land mass a bit smaller than Brooklyn. We also have carpeting, comfortable seats, no graffiti that is not erased overnight, quiet trains, and high usage (though not as high as the Lexington Avenue subway). The highest fare is $3.25 in rush hour but it gets you a 17-mile ride from Gaithersurg, Maryland to the White House, longer than that from 179 St.-Jamaica to Herald Square. The lowest is $1.10. However, the trains all look alike (no variety as in other cities) and there is no 3- or 4-track express service on any of the lines. Sometimes skip-stop service is proposed, but we don't have that either.
        
        Subject: Re: Number of stations on New York Subway
        Message Number: 761398
        Posted by: Christopher Rivera
        Date: Mon Jan 12 10:59:15 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Number of stations on New York Subway posted by Janet on December 26, 1997 at 16:04:27: For 1 thing there is excactly 468 station in New York City. For a little more help to connect all the stations there is 714 miles of track theat in enough track to get form here to Richmond VA.
        
        Subject: Re: Number of stations on New York Subway
        Message Number: 761400
        Posted by: Christopher Rivera
        Date: Mon Jan 12 10:59:23 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Number of stations on New York Subway posted by Janet on December 26, 1997 at 16:04:27: For 1 thing there is excactly 468 station in New York City. For a little more help to connect all the stations there is 714 miles of track theat in enough track to get form here to Richmond VA.
        
        Subject: Re: Number of stations on New York Subway
        Message Number: 761413
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Mon Jan 12 11:00:19 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Number of stations on New York Subway posted by Hank Eisenstein on December 31, 1997 at 04:10:07: Yep, you're right - 19 it is. (The old "hunt & peck missing a key" trick ....) --Mark

Thread title: Is the old Hudson Terminal station still in the World Trade Center today? (761173)
Started on Mon Jan 5 22:03:32 1998, by Mike

Subject: Is the old Hudson Terminal station still in the World Trade Center today?
Message Number: 761173
Posted by: Mike
Date: Mon Jan 5 22:03:32 1998

I would like to know if the old Hudson Terminal station still in the World Trade Center & if so, what is it being use for & one more thing, how did riders from both the IND 8th Line & the IRT 7th Av Line get to the old Hudson Terminal station when it was still there. Please post it.

Thread title: Re: Is the old Hudson Terminal station still in the World Trade Center (761180)
Started on Mon Jan 5 22:03:56 1998, by .

Subject: Re: Is the old Hudson Terminal station still in the World Trade Center
Message Number: 761180
Posted by: .
Date: Mon Jan 5 22:03:56 1998
- Subject: Re: Is the old Hudson Terminal station still in the World Trade Center
- Message Number: 761189
- Posted by: .
- Date: Mon Jan 5 22:04:22 1998
  - Subject: Re: Is the old Hudson Terminal station still in the World Trade Center
  - Message Number: 761195
  - Posted by: .
  - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:04:43 1998
    - Subject: Re: Is the old Hudson Terminal station still in the World Trade Center
    - Message Number: 761209
    - Posted by: .
    - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:05:24 1998
      - Subject: Re: Is the old Hudson Terminal station still in the World Trade Center
      - Message Number: 761219
      - Posted by: .
      - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:05:46 1998
        
        Subject: Re: Is the old Hudson Terminal station still in the World Trade Center
        Message Number: 761221
        Posted by: .
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:05:51 1998
        
        Subject: Re: Is the old Hudson Terminal station still in the World Trade Center
        Message Number: 761236
        Posted by: .
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:06:41 1998
        
        Subject: Re: Is the old Hudson Terminal station still in the World Trade Center
        Message Number: 761248
        Posted by: .
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:07:02 1998
        
        Subject: Re: Is the old Hudson Terminal station still in the World Trade Center
        Message Number: 761249
        Posted by: .
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:07:04 1998
        
        Subject: Re: Is the old Hudson Terminal station still in the World Trade Center
        Message Number: 761269
        Posted by: .
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:07:42 1998

Thread title: Re: Manhattan Bridge Millenium Catastrophe (761185)
Started on Mon Jan 5 22:04:14 1998, by Larry Littlefield

Subject: Re: Manhattan Bridge Millenium Catastrophe
Message Number: 761185
Posted by: Larry Littlefield
Date: Mon Jan 5 22:04:14 1998

In Reply to: [8]Manhattan Bridge Problems - Need Ideas for MTA posted by Mike Rothenberg on December 25, 1997 at 00:40:03: Just to put this issue in perspective, the president and director of planning at the T.A. gave a presentation at my office (the Department of City Planning). Afterward, I asked them about the Manhattan Bridge, and they practically turned blue. They believe it is a disaster waiting to happen, but that there is nothing they can do about it -- it is the city's bridge and it is responsible for fixing it. Why can't City Planning do a study which says how important the bridge is for Brooklyn's economy? they asked. To which I responded that the dust begins settling on our studies as soon as the leave the laser printer. They also take years to finish. For its part the MTA studied the bridge, and decided it could be fixed -- no need for another solution. That is the same decision Mayor Ed Koch made in 1986. After engineers said the bridge had to be replaced (expensive and politically sensitive), he hired other engineers to say it could be fixed for $100 million. The city has spent $500 million so far, and the bridge is rusting as fast as it is repaired. Millions will be spent. And half the tracks have been out for 11 years. Meanwhile, NYC DOT under (recently fired) Commissioner Lynn released a report which said the bridge could never be fixed. His concern was that running the trains over the bridge weakens it, and thus hurt its future ability to carry cars. Maybe we can run buses, he said. At the same time, the planning director of the MTA came to City Planning and said the LIRR connection to Grand Central is the MTA's highest priority. With added luxury service to Long Island and impending doom on the southern rim of Brooklyn, New York State's message to those working in Manhattan is clear -- get out of Brooklyn and move to Long Island. Most people I know who are moving out of Brooklyn, however, are moving to New Jersey. As to the cost, I ask again -- why are these things so expensive? If you assume that labor would account for half the cost and each worker would receive an average of $60,000 in wages and benefits (about what I get with a master's degree), then a $200 million investment would yield 415 people working for four years. Isn't that enough to build a simple connection and one thousand feet of track? And yes, building the Manhattan side of a Cranberry connection would be more disruptive than the other three. I can only hope that a rail will crack on the Manhattan Bridge some rush hour this winter, so people can get an idea how disruptive not fixing the bridge will be. I ask again -- can anyone tell me what Christe Street cost in 1967? I'd love to adjust it for inflation and put it in today's money. In inflation-adjusted dollars, the average NYC construction worker earned more in 1967 than he or she does today.
- Subject: Re: Manhattan Bridge Millenium Catastrophe
- Message Number: 761192
- Posted by: Subman23
- Date: Mon Jan 5 22:04:33 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Re: Manhattan Bridge Millenium Catastrophe posted by Larry Littlefield on December 26, 1997 at 20:15:12: You have touched a very political (yet interesting subject). I hear that restoring use of the H (Broadway) tracks have been pushed off into 2005. By that time the A (6 Avenue) tracks will need work on restoring the supports under the tracks. It is true that train traffic causes swaying and metal fatigue. I doubt that we will ever see use of both sets of tracks and fully restored service. The Manhattan Bridge is really an accident waiting to happen. Other solutions must be devised and enacted. Perhaps, your broken rail scenario would cause the politicians to face the music and prioritize this issue. Keep bringing up this topic. It is very important to the economic lifeline of Southern Brooklyn and Lower Manhattan.
  - Subject: Re: Manhattan Bridge Millenium Catastrophe
  - Message Number: 761216
  - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
  - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:05:41 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Manhattan Bridge Millenium Catastrophe posted by Larry Littlefield on December 26, 1997 at 20:15:12: Very interesting perspective. Remember how people reacted to the Williamsburgh Bridge being closed for a few weeks because of structural defects? I'm afraid it is going to take a similar incident on the Manhattan Bridge before people wake up and realize how important the subway service is that crosses it. The Rutgers St tunnel is a "cheap" way out. Too bad most people don't consider this when re-electing their politicians. --Mark
    - Subject: Re: Manhattan Bridge Millenium Catastrophe
    - Message Number: 761266
    - Posted by: Subway95 Rivera
    - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:07:36 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: Manhattan Bridge Millenium Catastrophe posted by Larry Littlefield on December 26, 1997 at 20:15:12: Come on you konw how many lines will have to be rerouted. One of the big lines in New York City is the D train how many people rid this train? If I was the T.A president I would reroute the D train after 34 street on the F line and the N,R,Q line when they did it in 95 it did not go well. So they should reinforce the Bridge to make it sronger and then when it is strong to hold the train I would tke away piece by piece until it is fully rebuilt. What do you think
      - Subject: Re: Manhattan Bridge Millenium Catastrophe
      - Message Number: 761439
      - Posted by: Andrew Byler
      - Date: Mon Jan 12 11:01:16 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Manhattan Bridge Millenium Catastrophe posted by Subman23 on December 27, 1997 at 03:15:36: What to do to end the crisis? Build the necessary subway connections at Rutgers to allow temporary rerouting. Temporarily eliminate the tolls on the Battery tunnel. Tear down the bridge and build a new one with the subway in the middle on a level with separate truck lanes (so it will be built good and strong). Have an upper deck for the cars. Put in toll plazas here, in Williamsburgh, and in Queens to end the free ride into Manhattan so that useage is evened out. Time for completing this sort of project should be no more than 5 years under a DBOM contract. Can anyone be found with guts in this spinless city? Robert Moses, where have you gone? Andy Byler
        
        Subject: Re: Manhattan Bridge Millenium Catastrophe
        Message Number: 761447
        Posted by: John B. Bredin
        Date: Mon Jan 12 11:01:31 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Manhattan Bridge Millenium Catastrophe posted by Andrew Byler on January 02, 1998 at 15:20:21: "Robert Moses, where have you gone?" If Robert Moses were still around, he might indeed rebuild the bridge, yes, but you could be bloody sure there would be no subway in the middle of it, on the edges of it, or anywhere else on it, for that matter. He'd blame the bridge's problems squarely on the subway and probably pull subway service off of every other bridge that carries it too (Williamsburgh?).
        
        Subject: Re: Manhattan Bridge Millenium Catastrophe
        Message Number: 761473
        Posted by: Andrew Byler
        Date: Mon Jan 12 11:03:03 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Manhattan Bridge Millenium Catastrophe posted by John B. Bredin on January 02, 1998 at 16:13:47: Robert Moses got more done for the city and the surrounding areas of the state than any of the putatative subway moguls of the past 57 odd years since the inception of the MTA. It is difficult to imagine that New York City (and Long Island) would function well at all without the miriad highways and bridges he built. On the other hand, the inanbilitiy of the MTA to accomplish major expansions of the Subway speaks volumes of the over-politicization of the expansion process. Excuses that Moses had acess to power and resources which are no longer available are cop-out whines. Moses had access to those two crucial ingredients of politicized building because he purposefully went after them to pursue his vision of the Public Good. Subway advocates seem more intent on carping about problems and fantasizing than on doing. Moses would have done nothing of the sort. Don't you remember that first scene in the Power Broker where Moses was defeated and saw his first ideas of building washed away in the political tide? Rather than complaining about boogeymen, he went and started amassing powers and money with the Triborough Toll Bridge so that he could accomplish his other ends. The MTA currently holds onto not only the transit companies of NYC, but also the great cash-cow of Moses, the Triborough Bridge and Toll Authority, which charges and absolutely outrageous $7 per round trip (350% higher than tolls in Philadelphia, Baltimore, Wilimington, Chicago, etc.). And still nothing is done but the production of expensive and never implemented proposals and carping about a shortage of funds. Andy Byler
        
        Subject: Re: Manhattan Bridge Millenium Catastrophe
        Message Number: 761512
        Posted by: Constantino Tobio, Jr.
        Date: Mon Jan 12 11:04:44 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Manhattan Bridge Millenium Catastrophe posted by Andrew Byler on January 03, 1998 at 14:47:47: RM did accomplish much in this city, but his many accomplishments were at the expense of rapid transit. Many of his highway projects could have been built with enough of a right-of-way for LIRR or subway, but they weren't. He would have none of that. What mass transit needed was a version of Moses, but there was room in NY for only one RM. Unfortunately, the people running the subways, especially after unification, lacked the vision and power needed to accomplish those goals Constantino Tobio, Jr.
        
        Subject: Re: Manhattan Bridge Millenium Catastrophe
        Message Number: 761581
        Posted by: Andrew Byler
        Date: Mon Jan 12 11:08:12 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Manhattan Bridge Millenium Catastrophe posted by Constantino Tobio, Jr. on January 04, 1998 at 16:39:27: Actually, there was never any need for room on the highways for Commuter trains and rapid transit. New York is blessed with an extremely large amount of already in place rail infrastructure - it simply needs to use what is there rather than tossing its dollars to the four winds. And there are provisions in some of the highway system for Rapid Transit - the LIE beyond Queens Blvd. and the Grand Central near LaGuardia both have the capability to take transit lines. And most likely, had such projects as the I-78 north of the Jamaica El in Brooklyn been built, the El would have been torn down and replaced with a median line (this was part of the IND 2nd System after all). As to Moses being virulently anti-transit - this is mostly remembered from the building of the Verrazano Narrows, and the refusal to link the R to the SIRR on the other side. There were very few other times when it was even an issue in the roads, bridges, and parks he was building. I would not view keeping the LIRR out of Jones Beach as a second example either - that had much more to do with his vision of serving the Plebian masses in their Model T's vs. letting the LIRR and its Parlor cars into a public park. The LIRR don't forget, was hardly the way of the masses back then. In any case, I think transit advocates spend too much time harping about Moses doing in everything on steel wheels, and not enough time realzing that the steel wheels were quite consciously sabotaged to a much greater extent by the Nickel fare and the great depression and WWII. Andy Byler
        
        Subject: Re: Manhattan Bridge Millenium Catastrophe
        Message Number: 761843
        Posted by: sdc-foti
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:36:20 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Manhattan Bridge Millenium Catastrophe posted by John B. Bredin on January 02, 1998 at 16:13:47: yeah, person like (Robert Moses) That should get their Grave pissed upon Foti-

Thread title: Replacement of "Iron Maiden" turnstiles (761205)
Started on Mon Jan 5 22:05:16 1998, by Jeff M.

Subject: Replacement of "Iron Maiden" turnstiles
Message Number: 761205
Posted by: Jeff M.
Date: Mon Jan 5 22:05:16 1998

Does anyone know the timetable for the replacement of the token-only "Iron Maiden" turnstiles throughout the system with full-length turnstiles which can read metrocards? I use the 7th Avenue station in Brooklyn every morning, which has the full-length token-only turnstiles at both the 7th Avenue and 8th Avenue entrances to the station (the standard metrocard/token turnstiles are located in the middle of the station). I currently use both a metrocard (for my commute home from Manhattan) and tokens (for my morning commute), so a monthly pass is of no benefit to me without the new turnstiles. Thanks in advance for your responses.
- Subject: Re: Replacement of "Iron Maiden" turnstiles
- Message Number: 761208
- Posted by: Bootsy
- Date: Mon Jan 5 22:05:23 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]Replacement of "Iron Maiden" turnstiles posted by Jeff M. on December 27, 1997 at 19:00:36: I was under the impression that they have all been replaced by now. The last ones I remember seeing were at the Coney Island station and a few stations along the West End Line (I'm sure there were many others at other stations that were replaced within the past year).
  - Subject: Re: Replacement of "Iron Maiden" turnstiles
  - Message Number: 761225
  - Posted by: subway-buff
  - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:05:58 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Replacement of "Iron Maiden" turnstiles posted by Bootsy on December 27, 1997 at 21:05:39: There's at least one left. The other day I was at 81 and Central park West and the old style Token iron Maiden was still there.
    - Subject: Re: Replacement of "Iron Maiden" turnstiles
    - Message Number: 761228
    - Posted by: David L.
    - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:06:12 1998
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: Replacement of "Iron Maiden" turnstiles posted by subway-buff on December 28, 1997 at 05:34:51: At the 46 Street and Northern Blvd stations. New full-length turnstiles which can read metrocards were placed right next to the Iron Maiden turnstiles. I'm not sure if the iron maiden turnstile still works, but they both are next to each other. The Grand Ave station still has the Iron Maiden Turnstile.
      - Subject: Re: Replacement of "Iron Maiden" turnstiles
      - Message Number: 761241
      - Posted by: Andrew Huie
      - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:06:50 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Replacement of "Iron Maiden" turnstiles posted by subway-buff on December 28, 1997 at 05:34:51: Yea, stations on Central Park West tends to get new turnstiles rather slowly. Just 3-4 years ago they were still using the old clunky turnstiles which probably dated back to the opening of the station.
        
        Subject: Re: Replacement of "Iron Maiden" turnstiles
        Message Number: 761250
        Posted by: Timothy Speer
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:07:05 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Replacement of "Iron Maiden" turnstiles posted by Andrew Huie on December 28, 1997 at 23:41:00: Hey -- I liked those old clunkers. Do you mean the ones with the wooden turnstile? I remember those fondly from the 2nd Ave. stop on the F.
        
        Subject: Re: Replacement of "Iron Maiden" turnstiles
        Message Number: 761257
        Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:07:20 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Replacement of "Iron Maiden" turnstiles posted by Jeff M. on December 27, 1997 at 19:00:36: This may seem funny to say, but the monthly Metrocards will not be "of no benefit" to you. You just may have to walk the extra 1/15th of a mile to the Metrocard turnstile in the middle of the station. If you use the subway or bus more than 21 round trips per month, you would save money, which might be worth the extra walking. Then when they do away with tokens, they will put new turnstiles everywhere.

Thread title: LIRR and Woodhaven station (761207)
Started on Mon Jan 5 22:05:21 1998, by John

Subject: LIRR and Woodhaven station
Message Number: 761207
Posted by: John
Date: Mon Jan 5 22:05:21 1998

I know that the Woodhaven Station is on the Flatbush line on the LIRR, but does anyone know when it is located? Is it underground or elevated? Where can I see the entrance to the station? What are other sights on long the line? I notice a large portal on the right wall of the Jamaica side of the tunnel. What is it for? Also, can anyone confirm the connection to the Rockaway line from there? Is there a connection?
- Subject: Re: LIRR and Woodhaven station
- Message Number: 761220
- Posted by: Steve
- Date: Mon Jan 5 22:05:48 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]LIRR and Woodhaven station posted by John on December 27, 1997 at 20:39:10: The Woodhaven Station is east of East NY on the Flatbush Ave.Line. There is a large portal in the wall on the eastbound side of the tunnel which leads to the storage yard located just south of Atlantic Ave. (I think that's the one you are referring to. As for the connection to the Rockaway Branch, many years ago I saw the cut from the Rockaway branch into the tunnel where they crossed. At that time, the area was used to store junked cars and was behind a galvanized steel wall. I don't know the state of this area currently.
  - Subject: Re: LIRR and Woodhaven station
  - Message Number: 761245
  - Posted by: Andrew Huie
  - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:06:57 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: LIRR and Woodhaven station posted by Steve on December 27, 1997 at 23:20:45: I think they use the area of the Woodhaven cut to store school buses. That's what I saw when I visited the area a few months ago, from street level. As for portals, I saw 4 on the Long Island-bound side (best seen from an LIRR train making a lot of connections at Jamaica, or a rush hour train): 2 led to the storage yard east of the Atlantic Ave. terminal (one had the tracks removed); 1 (sealed) just before the train exits the tunnel before Nostrand; and 1 (sealed) just before the the abandoned Woodhaven Blvd station (which led to the Rockaway line). The Woodhaven Blvd station was elevated (for the Rockaway line) and underground (for the Alantic Ave branch). To see the stairways and boarded over exits, take the J train to Woodhaven Blvd and walk south til you hit Atlantic Ave., then turn left til you reach the railroad bridge. Or, you could take the A to Rockaway Pky and follow the railroad bridge as best you can. The latter is probably not as safe, but you can see what's left of Ozone Park (not much), and also the old overhead railroad signals for the Rockaway line. I have a couple of questions though: are there any other portals on the New York-bound side of the Atlantic Ave branch? I never got a good chance to check it out. Also, what was the portal near Nostrand Avenue used for?

Thread title: #7 IRT(69st station) (761210)
Started on Mon Jan 5 22:05:26 1998, by Jack

Subject: #7 IRT(69st station)
Message Number: 761210
Posted by: Jack
Date: Mon Jan 5 22:05:26 1998

At the 69st station heading Flushing bound, at the begining of the station, there is a set of, what look like crew stairs, leading to a lower level. Does anyone still use these stairs? What is the abandoned docks near the descend to Main St. station? Was it ever used?

Thread title: Train Separates (761226)
Started on Mon Jan 5 22:06:03 1998, by George

Subject: Train Separates
Message Number: 761226
Posted by: George
Date: Mon Jan 5 22:06:03 1998

At approx. 8:00pm on Sat. Dec.27/97 a 6 car train, consist of H-6 units had the auto coupler between an air car and electric car break apart and pull out of both units as the train was crossing the cross-over into Kennedy Terminal at the east end terminus of the Bloor-Danforth line in Toronto. Power was pulled and all 200 persons on board were safely evacuated to the platform. Mecanhics managed to pick up the torn out coupler unit and isolate both havles of the train and operate them into the Kennedy tail tracks. At this time this incident is under investigation. Has there been any type of incident like this in NY or other American trainsit system recently. This is our second in one year.
- Subject: Re: Train Separates
- Message Number: 761233
- Posted by: Fernando Perez
- Date: Mon Jan 5 22:06:34 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Train Separates posted by George on December 28, 1997 at 11:03:21: I remember about five or more years ago, the laast two cars of a r44 or r40 train broke apart and the rest of the train kept going leaving the two cars alone in the tunnel in Brooklyn. I dont know if it was ever determined what went wrong.
  - Subject: Re: Train Separates
  - Message Number: 761260
  - Posted by: Charles Fiori
  - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:07:26 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: Train Separates posted by Fernando Perez on December 28, 1997 at 16:42:40: Happened out here in Chicago within the last couple of years, too. A midday work train was going up the incline, from the tunnel onto the 'el' tracks, on the Red Line south of Fullerton. I believe it stopped on the grade and the last car, a flat car, separated and rolled back down the hill, impacting a stopped regular service train waiting at the bottom.
    - Subject: Re: Train Separates
    - Message Number: 761278
    - Posted by: Timothy Speer
    - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:16:44 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: Train Separates posted by Charles Fiori on December 29, 1997 at 11:22:29: The followup I really posted got lost somehow in the bowels of Subtalk, so here it goes again: I thought I remembered someone telling me that if train cars separated, the brakes would apply as a result of lost air pressure, thus stopping the cars. Or am I thinking of trailers on tractor-trailer rigs?
      - Subject: Re: Train Separates
      - Message Number: 761279
      - Posted by: Wayne Johnson
      - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:16:46 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Train Separates posted by Fernando Perez on December 28, 1997 at 16:42:40: I think that's the case where a Manhattan-bound A train with R-44 cars were operating along Fulton Street when the first two cars separated from the last six. If I rememeber correctly the motorman continued on to the next stop, looked out his/her window when the dorrs failed to open and discovered that his train was minus six cars. The remaining cars were back in the tunnel, I'm guessing they went BIE to stop them.
        
        Subject: Re: Train Separates
        Message Number: 761280
        Posted by: Timothy Speer
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:16:48 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Train Separates posted by Wayne Johnson on December 30, 1997 at 11:24:43: Help me out here -- what does BIE mean?
        
        Subject: Re: Train Separates
        Message Number: 761283
        Posted by: Charles Fiori
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:16:55 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Train Separates posted by Timothy Speer on December 30, 1997 at 11:58:08: BIE---Brakes in Emergency
        
        Subject: Re: Train Separates
        Message Number: 761311
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:18:04 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Train Separates posted by Wayne Johnson on December 30, 1997 at 11:24:43: I have only vague recollection of an incident with an R-44. I do, however, remember an incident with LIRR M-1s around woodside where 2 cars stopped and the remaining 8 continued on to Jamaica. The crew was unaware that their rear end was missing. (except for the brakeman)
        
        Subject: Re: Train Separates
        Message Number: 761325
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:18:32 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Train Separates posted by George on December 28, 1997 at 11:03:21: San Francisco's MUNI has had numerous "undesired decouplings" of its Boeing LRVs when they are MU'ed together. --Mark

Thread title: Undesired Uncoupling vs Pull-Apart (761227)
Started on Mon Jan 5 22:06:06 1998, by Steve

Subject: Undesired Uncoupling vs Pull-Apart
Message Number: 761227
Posted by: Steve
Date: Mon Jan 5 22:06:06 1998

In Reply to: [8]Train Separates posted by George on December 28, 1997 at 11:03:21: What you experienced, could be one of two types of incidents. The more common is referred to as an "Undesired Uncoupling". In this case, the train uncouples and both segments 'should' go into emergency. This is due to either a failure of the coupler head, human error or a transient uncoupling signal. In this case, the train can usually be re-added and moved off of the main line for examination. In a pull-apart, the train will seperate between linked units (which is what it sounds like you had). This is always due to mechanical failure of either the link or the trunion bolts which support it. In this case, air and electrical lines are extensively damaged and the train would usually need to be moved in 2 pieces, off the main line. Undesired uncouplings and pull-aparts are rare occurrences on the NYCT system. Undesired uncouplings are always investigated by 'System Safety' to determine a cause. All NYCT equipment is designed & engineered to prevent a 'single-point failure' from causing an Undesired Uncoupling. As for Pull-Aparts, I've seen only one in the last 2 decades. A pair of R-38s seperated, in service, about 15 years ago due to a failure of a trunion bolt.
- Subject: Re: Undesired Uncoupling vs Pull-Apart
- Message Number: 761237
- Posted by: George
- Date: Mon Jan 5 22:06:43 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Undesired Uncoupling vs Pull-Apart posted by Steve on December 28, 1997 at 11:33:50: The unoffical word is that the unit in question, had work done on it Dec.01/97 and the attachment bolts may have been over torqued. That is at this time unofficial and speculation. The coupler unit was ripped out of one car and remained coupled to the other. Keep you posted.
  - Subject: Re: Undesired Uncoupling vs Pull-Apart
  - Message Number: 761262
  - Posted by: Lou from Brooklyn
  - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:07:29 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]Undesired Uncoupling vs Pull-Apart posted by Steve on December 28, 1997 at 11:33:50: Wasn't there some type of breakaway when the first R44's came out with the unicontroller, half the train moved the other half the breaks never released?? Could be total rumor that I seem to be misremembering though>...
    - Subject: Re: Undesired Uncoupling vs Pull-Apart
    - Message Number: 761267
    - Posted by: Steve
    - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:07:38 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: Undesired Uncoupling vs Pull-Apart posted by Lou from Brooklyn on December 29, 1997 at 11:58:13: Sounds like one of those stories that have become part of transit lore. All things being equal, in the situation you cite, the train would simply not move. There would have to be a catastrophic failure of the draft gear for that to happen.
      - Subject: Re: Undesired Uncoupling vs Pull-Apart
      - Message Number: 761277
      - Posted by: Bill from S.I.
      - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:16:42 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Undesired Uncoupling vs Pull-Apart posted by Steve on December 29, 1997 at 19:11:22: Steve, do you remember (maybe you don't) a derailment in C.I. Yard in 82 or 83 when a car on one of the yard tracks came apart and rolled into a train leaving the yard. After the car hit the train it rolled on to its side. I don't know details on why or how it happened, but I do remember it looked like a dead dinosaur laying there.
        
        Subject: Re: Undesired Uncoupling vs Pull-Apart
        Message Number: 761313
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:18:08 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Undesired Uncoupling vs Pull-Apart posted by Bill from S.I. on December 30, 1997 at 08:48:18: Sorry but I don't. Unfortunately, yard incidents are all too common. One reason is that signals USUALLY do not have trip arms for protection. The other reason is that much of the equipment moved in a yard is out of service for repair.

Thread title: Compatible - I think not? (761231)
Started on Mon Jan 5 22:06:29 1998, by Steve

Subject: Compatible - I think not?
Message Number: 761231
Posted by: Steve
Date: Mon Jan 5 22:06:29 1998

In Reply to: [8]Re: Could commuter trains fit and/or run in a subway? posted by Adam on December 22, 1997 at 23:41:56: What is your definition of compatibility? Track gauge and 600 volt 3rd rail not withstanding, there is no compatibility. The car envelope is not compatible with the NYCT tunnels. The cars can not operate on the NYCT signal system, The couplers are not compatible (mechanical or electrical). About the only NE reigonal system which would be compatible with NYCT is PATH.

Thread title: Larry Reuter Interview on WNBC-TV Today (761234)
Started on Mon Jan 5 22:06:36 1998, by subway-buff

Subject: Larry Reuter Interview on WNBC-TV Today
Message Number: 761234
Posted by: subway-buff
Date: Mon Jan 5 22:06:36 1998

This is a brief summary of today's interview with Larry Reuter(NYCT president) by WNBC-TV4. When asked about 11 for 10 he said that transit would lose money and he hoped the increased riders will lead to a break even. He also said no family fares or deeper discounts until they see how the revenue comes in. he also said they are adding service on the 6,7 and "some other lines." The Q was mentioned by the host and he said not yet. Second Ave: Right now a study/ Next project is 63 st to Grand Central then second Ave. "There is light at the end of the tunnel but it is far away (after 2005) but there is light" Translation: Dont wait for second ave trains- yet
- Subject: Re: Larry Reuter Interview on WNBC-TV Today
- Message Number: 761268
- Posted by: Adam
- Date: Mon Jan 5 22:07:40 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Larry Reuter Interview on WNBC-TV Today posted by subway-buff on December 28, 1997 at 16:43:13: I have a good idea: Let's all send Larry Reuter e-mail (Does anybody know his e-mail address?) or letters by snail mail (His snail-mail address?) demanding the 2nd. Ave line be completed over such grossly expensive and trivial projects like the 63rd Street connection. Let's send him tons and tons of mail until he comes around on the 2nd Ave. Subway issue. Screw any more studies! We've done our own damn study and we've done it by riding the Lexington Ave. line. Tell Larry Reuter to get his ass into the subway for once. He probably rides limos and taxis around the city. And if you're reading this Mr. Reuter, I welcome you to respond publicly to all of us here at SubTalk as to why you keep pushing the 2nd Ave. Subway under the rug because soon we're going to have a riot right in front of your office and make you realize that we need that line. (Does anybody think the TA employees and managers read this board???) I know that I have been ranting and raving but when I hear that more "studies" are needed and that we have to wait until 2005 when NYCT may not have any more money and be cash-strapped again, I get very upset because this is the same bullshit we've been hearing for decades. Tell Larry Reuter to cut the crap and finally serve the straphangers of NYC in a just manner or get the hell out of office because we don't need him in there.
  - Subject: Re: Larry Reuter Interview on WNBC-TV Today
  - Message Number: 761270
  - Posted by: Joe M
  - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:07:44 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: Larry Reuter Interview on WNBC-TV Today posted by Adam on December 29, 1997 at 19:21:12: Studies usually involve public comment (letters public hearings, surveys etc.) Find the planners to get information about the palnning process. Attend the hearings and testify. A proactive attitude is good. Go for it and make the process work for you. State and Federal regulations require the planning process. The the process mandates plenty of public particiation (usually so the nimbys have an opportunity to kill the projects).
    - Subject: Re: Larry Reuter Interview on WNBC-TV Today
    - Message Number: 761271
    - Posted by: Peter Gray
    - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:07:46 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: Larry Reuter Interview on WNBC-TV Today posted by Adam on December 29, 1997 at 19:21:12: You tell 'em, Adam! You're not ranting - everything you said makes perfect sense. NY has been suffering for most of a century with only one overtaxed East Side subway line. Since they took away the trolleys, the only alternative east of Lexington is a bus stalled in traffic. The result is piss-poor mobility. NYCT has made an art out of 'studies' as the consummate bureaucratic excuse to do absolutely nothing. That's part of the reason the whole town has gone to hell. We all know damn well that NY won't have a dime more in 2005 than it does today. Any idiot could tell you the 2nd Avenue line is needed. As you said, Reuter should get out of the damn limo, and down underground. Or better yet, just get the hell out so someone competent can do the job.
      - Subject: Re: Larry Reuter Interview on WNBC-TV Today
      - Message Number: 761272
      - Posted by: Peter Gray
      - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:07:49 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Larry Reuter Interview on WNBC-TV Today posted by Adam on December 29, 1997 at 19:21:12: You tell 'em, Adam! You're not ranting - everything you said makes perfect sense. NY has been suffering for most of a century with only one overtaxed East Side subway line. Since they took away the trolleys, the only alternative east of Lexington is a bus stalled in traffic. The result is piss-poor mobility. NYCT has made an art out of 'studies' as the consummate bureaucratic excuse to do absolutely nothing. That's part of the reason the whole town has gone to hell. We all know damn well that NY won't have a dime more in 2005 than it does today. Any idiot could tell you the 2nd Avenue line is needed. As you said, Reuter should get out of the damn limo, and down underground. Or better yet, just get the hell out so someone competent can do the job.

Thread title: Theft of Services (761238)
Started on Mon Jan 5 22:06:45 1998, by Adam

Subject: Theft of Services
Message Number: 761238
Posted by: Adam
Date: Mon Jan 5 22:06:45 1998

The other day, I saw some kids get caught for jumping the turnstiles. I know that you can get charged with Theft of Services for farebeating, but I'm wondering what is the penalty for this? Do you get arrested or do you just get a ticket? Is there a fine and/or jail time involved?
- Subject: Re: Theft of Services
- Message Number: 761244
- Posted by: Steve
- Date: Mon Jan 5 22:06:55 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Theft of Services posted by Adam on December 28, 1997 at 21:35:42: First of all, a large percentage of the people arrested for turnstile jumping are either found to be in possessionof a weapon or drugs. many more are found to have outstanding warrants. Hence, turnstile jumping is the least of their problems. For those whom turnstile jumping is the only CRIME, they are sometimes offered a Work Alternative Restatution Program where they are permitted to work off their punishment cleaning in and around TA facilities.
  - Subject: Re: Theft of Services
  - Message Number: 761247
  - Posted by: Fernando Perez
  - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:07:00 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Theft of Services posted by Steve on December 29, 1997 at 00:17:39: Many transit officers take their lunches at the depots, and I have asked them this question. Steve is correct. Also, sometimes they have sweeps where all they are looking for is farebeaters. They will have a command bus set up several blocks away where detainees are checked for warrants, etc. Most of the time they just receive a summons to pay a fine. Some officers even told me if they want some overtime they will arrest the person for it since MTA pays all their overtime. The summonses are aggresively pursued for payment by the MTA if the person just shrugs it off thinking they just wont pay it.
    - Subject: Re: Theft of Services
    - Message Number: 761261
    - Posted by: Lou from Brooklyn
    - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:07:27 1998
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: Theft of Services posted by Fernando Perez on December 29, 1997 at 03:24:48: What I have seen is farebeaters handcuffed, and summons written. The handcuffs alone would make me change my mind quick even if they let me go after writing the ticket!!
      - Subject: Re: Theft of Services
      - Message Number: 761352
      - Posted by: Chris C.
      - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:19:45 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Theft of Services posted by Fernando Perez on December 29, 1997 at 03:24:48: Perhaps it's the overtime that keeps 2,3,4,5, and sometimes even 6 officers standing around all morning or evening at the turnstiles waiting for someone to jump over right in front of them. It seems to me they could save a lot of money by laying off 5 of the officers and putting the 6th in plain clothes riding the cars. He could start on the F Train which is always hip deep in trash, or in the last car of the #1 train which many Westsiders refered to as the "smoking car".
        
        Subject: Re: Theft of Services
        Message Number: 761360
        Posted by: Adam
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:20:23 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Theft of Services posted by Fernando Perez on December 29, 1997 at 03:24:48: If the cops arrest you, does that mean jail time or just a fine? I mean, what's the point in arresting you if you can just get a fine?
        
        Subject: Re: Theft of Services
        Message Number: 761367
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:20:53 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Theft of Services posted by Adam on December 31, 1997 at 13:41:25: If the fare is $1.50 and the fine is $50.00 or you have to work for me for 8 hours,it won't be too many times before you realize that paying the fare is a smarter choice.

Thread title: Best/Worst Subways (Redux) (761240)
Started on Mon Jan 5 22:06:48 1998, by Sammy

Subject: Best/Worst Subways (Redux)
Message Number: 761240
Posted by: Sammy
Date: Mon Jan 5 22:06:48 1998

If as they say the G will terminate permanently at Court Square following the opening of the 63rd street line, then the MTA should be aware of one thing. We, the residents of Greenpoint, will fight this to the end. The MTA has no right whatsoever to deny economic growth to any neighborhood/community. If it takes a class action suit, so be it. It just won't happen. MYA - you've been warned.
- Subject: Re: Best/Worst Subways (Redux)
- Message Number: 761242
- Posted by: Nick
- Date: Mon Jan 5 22:06:51 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Best/Worst Subways (Redux) posted by Sammy on December 28, 1997 at 22:35:00: It's bad enough that the G doesn't go to Forest Hills on weekends...don't make this service even worse then it already is....add some trains and make it better!!!!-NICK

Thread title: Manhattan Bridge Millenium Shutdown (761246)
Started on Mon Jan 5 22:06:58 1998, by Mike Rothenberg

Subject: Manhattan Bridge Millenium Shutdown
Message Number: 761246
Posted by: Mike Rothenberg
Date: Mon Jan 5 22:06:58 1998

Thanks to people like Larry L., Eric D., Mark Feinman and Subman 23, this topic won't (& shouldn't) go away. It is terribly important. More important that many other topics presented in this forum. IT IS UNACCEPTABLE THAT THIS SITUATION, AFFECTING SO MANY LINES AND PEOPLE, IS NOT ADDRESSED BY THE AUTHORITIES TO PROVIDE A SATISFACTORY AND PERMANENT RESOLUTION. Who wants to be one of the tens of thou- sands of people who have to deal with a horrible commute mess that is clearly coming, while authorities look the other way. There needs to be a way to get MTA authorities to put this AT OR NEAR THE TOP OF ITS AGENDA. Refusal to plan will guarantee transit disruption & anger.

Thread title: Oops! (761251)
Started on Mon Jan 5 22:07:07 1998, by Timothy Speer

Subject: Oops!
Message Number: 761251
Posted by: Timothy Speer
Date: Mon Jan 5 22:07:07 1998

In Reply to: [8]Re: Replacement of "Iron Maiden" turnstiles posted by Timothy Speer on December 29, 1997 at 08:38:59: Gee -- I should have read your post completely before I responded... I didn't realize we were still talking about Iron Maidens.
- Subject: Re: Oops!
- Message Number: 761334
- Posted by: Andrew Huie
- Date: Mon Jan 5 22:18:57 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Oops! posted by Timothy Speer on December 29, 1997 at 08:44:15: No, you were right - I did mean the wooden turnstiles, though I never really considered them made out of wood - more like layers of paint! 8-)
  - Subject: Re: Oops!
  - Message Number: 761351
  - Posted by: Timothy Speer
  - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:19:43 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Oops! posted by Andrew Huie on December 31, 1997 at 00:04:22: So, what color was the outer coating of paint when they removed them? I remember the ones at 2nd Ave as being yellow, with the surrounding metal base of the unit blue.
    - Subject: Re: Oops!
    - Message Number: 761391
    - Posted by: Andrew Huie
    - Date: Mon Jan 12 10:58:59 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: Oops! posted by Timothy Speer on December 31, 1997 at 09:48:22: I remember the ones at East Broadway were red with a dark green base.

Thread title: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names (761254)
Started on Mon Jan 5 22:07:14 1998, by Lou from Middletown

Subject: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names
Message Number: 761254
Posted by: Lou from Middletown
Date: Mon Jan 5 22:07:14 1998

When I was a kid, and we used to ride out to our aunt's in Jackson Hgts, the stations on the #7 line used to have names as well as numbers.It used to be (I believe) like 52nd St-Lincoln 36th st-Fisk,etc. Why did they have these names in the first place?? I don't see no streets on any map with these names, also why were dropped from the stations?? (A quick sidey: the conductors used to only say "Fisk","Lincoln",etc!!)Thanks for the help folks!
- Subject: Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names
- Message Number: 761255
- Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
- Date: Mon Jan 5 22:07:17 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names posted by Lou from Middletown on December 29, 1997 at 09:21:29: I don't know exactly when, but before 1900 the streets all had names in Queens County. As more streets were built and the land filled in with houses, most north-south streets were reassigned as numbered "Street"s and "Place"s; most east-west streets became "Avenue"s and "Drive"s. The names at the stations are the original names of the streets. An example (for those outside NYC) is "46th (Bliss)" where 46 St. used to be Bliss Street many many decades ago.
  - Subject: Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names
  - Message Number: 761256
  - Posted by: Peter Rosa
  - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:07:18 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 29, 1997 at 09:32:41: I recall reading that the major renaming of Queens Streets (names to numbers) occurred in the 1930s. That was after construction of the Flushing line and therefore helps account for the dual station names. Why these old street names are still retained for stations after ~60 years is another matter. I'd say it's a way of making the station names easier to remember, but then again there are many stations on other lines designated by numbers only.
    - Subject: Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names
    - Message Number: 761258
    - Posted by: Lou from Middletown
    - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:07:22 1998
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names posted by Peter Rosa on December 29, 1997 at 09:38:52: Wow! Talk about fast-thanks for answering a puzzling question so quickly!! The answer as to why is probably the answer to a lot of subway/railroad questions-Tradition!! Or at the very least, they didn't want to spend the money to change the signs at the stations (another valued rail tradition!!)
      - Subject: Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names
      - Message Number: 761263
      - Posted by: Charles Fiori
      - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:07:31 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names posted by Peter Rosa on December 29, 1997 at 09:38:52: Why then would the use of line names on BMT Southern Division lines still be encouraged? If the West End is the remnant of some long ago railroad, why do we still need to make that reference? I like the old names myself. Anyone know, BTW, when 103rd St on the Flushing line was changed from 104th (Alburtis)?

Thread title: What service changes are we expected to see after the 63rd St-Queens Blvd (761259)
Started on Mon Jan 5 22:07:24 1998, by .

Subject: What service changes are we expected to see after the 63rd St-Queens Blvd
Message Number: 761259
Posted by: .
Date: Mon Jan 5 22:07:24 1998

Thread title: Re: Hudson Terminal (761264)
Started on Mon Jan 5 22:07:32 1998, by Charles Fiori

Subject: Re: Hudson Terminal
Message Number: 761264
Posted by: Charles Fiori
Date: Mon Jan 5 22:07:32 1998

In Reply to: [7]Re: Is the old Hudson Terminal station still in the World Trade Center today? posted by Hank Eisenstein on December 29, 1997 at 03:29:13: I believe the designation on the tiles was H & M. Sorry to hear that the tiles were covered over. Might as well have covered over the beaver mosaics at Astor Place!!!

Thread title: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel (761273)
Started on Mon Jan 5 22:07:54 1998, by Mike K

Subject: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel
Message Number: 761273
Posted by: Mike K
Date: Mon Jan 5 22:07:54 1998

Folks If anyone did not see today's story in The Star-Ledger of Newark (NJ), there is a page one story about a study commission recommending construction of a second Hudson River rail crossing. The plan would involve having the tunnel cross the river just south of the current tunnel (which opened in 1910), lead to Penn Station, and branch off to Grand Central Station. The newspaper says part of the construction would involve using a tunnel that had been dug for a PATH expansion to the Grand Central area, which never materialized (question: is there such a tunnel?). Penn Station apparently has enough right of way to be able to get this tunnel started on its end. The tunnel would run along 31 Street, then turn to the north and into Grand Central. Apparently, this will also involve completing the LIRR 63rd Street connection into Grand Central. The study, conducted jointly by NJT, the Port Authority, and the MTA, would greatly expand the capacity of Penn Station, opening up platform space by allowing the LIRR and NJT to store trains at each other's yards during midday layovers. NJT would use Sunnyside, while the LIRR would use either the West Side yards or other yards in northern New Jersey. One other benefit would be an added link after the planned Secaucus Transfer station to many NJT lines that go to Hoboken. These tracks would curve off the main line to Hoboken, loop underneath (or above) the main line, then join the Northeast Corridor tracks. It would somewhat resemble the helix into the Lincoln Tunnel from New Jersey. This study is not yet complete. A formal presentation is expected early in the new year, but according to the Ledger, the committee has ruled out a vehicular tunnel or bridge. If this comes to fruition, what a great day for us transit advocates! But don't get too anxious: the thought is that this tunnel wouldn't be ready until at least 2010 (2015 is more likely). Plus, train modifications will be needed for NJT (maybe for the LIRR as well, but that I'm not sure of). The biggest losers herebesides those who insist on staying in their cars-would be PATH's uptown lines, especially the Hoboken-33rd Street line. The WTC lines should not be affected too much. Oh, almost forgot: the cost will be in the billions. I forget the exact number, but five billion seems to be a goofd starting point. Kind regards, Michael
- Subject: Re: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel
- Message Number: 761317
- Posted by: Larry Littlefield
- Date: Mon Jan 5 22:18:16 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]New Hudson River Transit Tunnel posted by Mike K on December 29, 1997 at 22:41:46: I'm glad the MTA, which ostenably represents New York City in transit matters, is willing to help those with choices escape from Brooklyn to New Jersey as well as Long Island. I hope everyone can get out before the Manhattan Bridge rusts.
  - Subject: Re: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel
  - Message Number: 761326
  - Posted by: Andrew Huie
  - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:18:35 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]New Hudson River Transit Tunnel posted by Mike K on December 29, 1997 at 22:41:46: Fascinating! I wonder exactly how they're going to get trains into Grand Central from the south. That's a pretty deep tunnel, and under the Lexington Avenue lines, no less. I don't recall hearing about any unused PATH tunnels in midtown. Even if they exist wouldn't they be the wrong dimensions? Whatever tunnels are there won't help much. Doesn't NJ transit use Sunnyside now? Who uses it besides Amtrak (I never seem to see too many working LIRR trains there)? Where are rush hour NJ transit trains stored now? Back in NJ? It's about time they considered adding a new tunnel under the Hudson! It sure seems like they push a lot trains through just 2 tubes. As for PATH, I'm not sure if they will be considered losers - they're stuffed to the gills as it is, and I'm not sure how many people would switch to a Hoboken-to-Penn Station line with its probably higher fare.
    - Subject: Re: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel
    - Message Number: 761341
    - Posted by: Mike K
    - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:19:20 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel posted by Andrew Huie on December 30, 1997 at 23:26:37: Andrew- Let me answer some of your questions in order, to the best of my ability. Regarding the tunnel issue: apparently, there is some "open space" or unused right of way which was to be used at one time to extend PATH to the Grand Central area. That would be used to as part of the new tunnel. One thing I did not mention: the southbound Lex Avenue local track would have to be relocated. The plan would shift the track to the west (closer to the shuttle, which means the track 1 connection would have to be rejiggered). Even if the PATH "right of way" (let's call it that, for lack of proof of an actual tunnel) is too small, it can be widened somewhat to fit the larger trains. That, in itself, would be easier that drilling an entirely new tunnel. The plan would involve boring out a new tunnel from the Penn Station area (and the right of way Penn Station has retained under some Penn Plaza buildings) to the area of this PATH "right of way" into Grand Central. I think it would be quicker, but MUCH MORE disruptive, to use cut and cover. Cut and cover is apparently out of the question. As for train storage, I don't know if NJT stores any of its trains at Sunnyside now. I do know some are laid up at the platform areas during the midday, which eliminates capacity during late am rush and early pm rush. That would be one of the issues they're trying to address. Also, one quick correction: the tunnel, and associated new connection, would not be anywhere near Hoboken. It would originate in the Secaucus Transfer area, a few miles west. Kind regards, Michael
      - Subject: Re: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel
      - Message Number: 761342
      - Posted by: Mike K
      - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:19:23 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel posted by Mike K on December 31, 1997 at 01:36:49: Andrew� A little error on my part. The fourth paragraph in my reply (third of the three paragraphs bunched together) should read as follows: The plan to create a tunnel between Penn Station and Grand Central would involve boring out a new tunnel from the Penn Station area (and the right of way Penn Station has retained under some Penn Plaza buildings) to the area of this PATH "right of way" into Grand Central. I think it would be quicker, but MUCH MORE disruptive, to use cut and cover. Cut and cover is apparently out of the question.
        
        Subject: Re: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel
        Message Number: 761355
        Posted by: subway-buff
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:19:51 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel posted by Mike K on December 31, 1997 at 01:40:01: NJT does store trains at Sunnyside along with AMTRAK. There is a tunne connecting Penn Station to Sunnyside. Some one may correct me, but I do not think it connects to Grand Central. QUESTION: When AMTRAk did go to Grand Central, how did the trains get there- from the New Haven Line?
        
        Subject: Re: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel
        Message Number: 761359
        Posted by: Dan Schwartz
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:20:20 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]New Hudson River Transit Tunnel posted by Mike K on December 29, 1997 at 22:41:46: I have often wondered if it would be possible to directly connect Grand Central and Penn Station via tracks under Park Ave. connecting with the LIRR/Amtrak tunnel to Queens, and concluded that it really wouldn't be. Under this stretch of Park Ave. today there is, first, the vehicular tunnel from 32nd to 40th Streets and, second, the Lexington Ave. subway. A rail tunnel would have to be under the subway, deep enough not to undermine it -- which means it would probably be at the wrong level to connect with the existing crosstown tunnel. I guess this new tunnel is going to be built deeper, so that it can connect with such a deep-tunnelled line under southern Park Ave.? And (as has been pointed out), GCT (the T means "Terminal", remember?) is built so that trains only enter and leave to the north. The newly refurbished concourses (upper and lower levels) block any direct extension of service southward. I guess the idea is not to connect with GCT itself, but rather with the Park Ave. tunnels to the north of it, allowing some trains to pass UNDER Grand Central, then through the deep tunnel discussed above to connect with the new 31st St. tunnel to Penn Station. Some of the other things mentioned don't seem very clear either: NJT trains already lay up in Sunnyside, there would be nothing new in that. Is there a map that accompannies the story?
        
        Subject: Re: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel
        Message Number: 761361
        Posted by: Peter Rosa
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:20:28 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel posted by subway-buff on December 31, 1997 at 13:11:02: The East River tunnel, between Penn Station and Sunnyside, doesn't go anywhere near Grand Central. There are plans floating around to link the LIRR mainline (which has access to Sunnyside) to Grand Central via the currently unused lower level of the 63rd Street tunnel. I don't believe that Amtrak trains on the New Haven line have ever used Grand Central. Diesel-powered trains could get there easily enough, but Grand Central does not have overhead pantograph power such as Amtrak's electric locomotives use.
        
        Subject: Re: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel
        Message Number: 761365
        Posted by: Charles Fiori
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:20:44 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel posted by Peter Rosa on December 31, 1997 at 14:06:35: Way back, about 15 years ago, I remember seeing in the old "Broadway Limited" railroadiana store, when it was located on West 33d Street, one of those canvas train announcement signs that would hang adjacent to the doors for the specific tracks. It showed a run going from GCT to Boston. What equip. was used, who knows, but prob. an FL9 or something. So no, Amtrak New Haven trains never went into GCT, but New Haven New Haven trains did.
        
        Subject: Re: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel
        Message Number: 761375
        Posted by: Mike K
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:21:25 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel posted by Charles Fiori on December 31, 1997 at 15:23:40: Actually, didn't Amtrak stop running trains to Grand Central just a few years back? (I believe it was either 1993 or 1994.)
        
        Subject: Re: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel
        Message Number: 761385
        Posted by: ~airplane
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:22:05 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel posted by Mike K on December 31, 1997 at 19:46:48: It was actually a few years earlier than that. I have an old timetable from the Fall of 1991 announcing "the end of New York cross-town transfers!" Once Amtrak decided to start using the old ROW down the West Side that connects with the Hudson Line, there were no longer any trains that could not reach Penn Station, and no longer was there a reason to run trains to Grand Central.
        
        Subject: Re: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel
        Message Number: 761386
        Posted by: Peter Rosa
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:22:10 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel posted by ~airplane on December 31, 1997 at 21:33:49: During the big blizzard in early 1996, I saw an Amtrak train from Toronto that had been rerouted to Grand Central - apparently, the west side tracks were impassable at that time.
        
        Subject: Re: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel
        Message Number: 761390
        Posted by: Andrew Huie
        Date: Mon Jan 12 10:58:57 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel posted by subway-buff on December 31, 1997 at 13:11:02: The trains that went to Grand Central were from the Empire corridor; i.e., they followed the Hudson line.
        
        Subject: Re: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel
        Message Number: 761393
        Posted by: Bootsy
        Date: Mon Jan 12 10:59:03 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel posted by Peter Rosa on December 31, 1997 at 23:48:26: The Empire trains going to upstate New York used to terminate and originate at Grand Central. Back in 1988, I rode a train out of GCT to Montreal (the Adirondack). Uhhhhh! What a long ride ! And customs ! It had to be on MY train that they couldn't match a checked bag with a passenger!!
        
        Subject: Re: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel
        Message Number: 761437
        Posted by: Andrew Byler
        Date: Mon Jan 12 11:01:12 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel posted by Andrew Huie on December 30, 1997 at 23:26:37: The alleged problem with the location of the IRT line under Park Ave. can be solved by retaking the auto tunnel from 32nd to 40th Sts. for railroad use. As Joe Brennan observes in his list of abandoned railway stations, this tunnel was originally used by the New York Central to access the Madison Square Garden terminal at 26th St. That being the case, it should not present enormous difficulties to link it to the south side tracks of Penn Station on 31st St. and the loop tracks of the lower side of Grand Central (which is to be given to the LIRR when they get their act in gear and build their 63rd St. connection). No more construction is required than two ramps. Andy Byler
        
        Subject: Re: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel
        Message Number: 761465
        Posted by: Andrew Huie
        Date: Mon Jan 12 11:02:16 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel posted by Andrew Byler on January 02, 1998 at 14:58:28: Uhh, I think it is going to take a lot more than just a couple of ramps, unless you intend to run the trains into the tunnel through the street level entrances. The Lex Ave express is directly below the tunnel at all times (that's why it dips south of GCT) and the Lex Ave local is on either side of the tunnel and only slightly lower, so it's impossible for a new tunnel to try to go over the local tracks. So it seems that cars are here to stay w/ regards to the tunnel.
        
        Subject: Re: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel
        Message Number: 761482
        Posted by: Eric B
        Date: Mon Jan 12 11:03:29 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel posted by Andrew Huie on January 03, 1998 at 04:40:11: A question I always had, is if the exp tracks dip because of something above, then why doesn't the CEILING dip?
        
        Subject:
        Message Number:
        Posted by:
        Date: Wed Dec 31 19:00:00 1969

Thread title: SHEPPARD STREET SUBWAY, TORONTO (761274)
Started on Mon Jan 5 22:16:34 1998, by Jason

Subject: SHEPPARD STREET SUBWAY, TORONTO
Message Number: 761274
Posted by: Jason
Date: Mon Jan 5 22:16:34 1998

I am from Sydney, Australia and I hear that Toronto has the best, but by no means the most extensive subway in North America. If anyone knows anything at all about the Sheppard Street extension I would love to find out. (For example, number of stations, time for completion, internet links beside the TTC, and developments above stations) For those who are interested, light rail recently began operations and a $A 700 million underground link to Sydney Airport is scheduled to be completed by the 2000 Olympics. Also, the State Government has released a report on the internet detailing preferred new cross metropolitan light rail routes. It can be found at www.transport.nsw.gov.au/lightrail and the report includes case studies of lightrail in the U.S. The report makes much of the relationship between density and transport usage and therefore should be of special interest to those involved in transport planning.
- Subject: Re: SHEPPARD STREET SUBWAY, TORONTO
- Message Number: 761322
- Posted by: Mark S Feinman
- Date: Mon Jan 5 22:18:26 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]SHEPPARD STREET SUBWAY, TORONTO posted by Jason on December 30, 1997 at 07:19:54: I use Netscape Navigator 4 and had no trouble with the link given. Try this link to the [9]Sydney new cross metropolitan light rail routes discussion. --Mark
  - Subject: Re: SHEPPARD STREET SUBWAY, TORONTO
  - Message Number: 761509
  - Posted by: Brian Wolk
  - Date: Mon Jan 12 11:04:36 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: SHEPPARD STREET SUBWAY, TORONTO /Link bad posted by Jason on December 30, 1997 at 19:28:53: The TTC has an official web site? I never knew... I use the one at http://web.idirect.com/~ttc if that's the one you're talking about. It's not an official TTC website but it does have some neat information... Anyway, about Sheppard Subway: It will have five stations: YONGE/SHEPPARD BAYVIEW BESSARION LESLIE DON MILLS Yonge/Sheppard station is to be built above the current Sheppard station on the Yonge line, with a tail track to extend slightly west of Yonge St. The 6.4 km line is scheduled for completion in 2002 and will likely be serviced solely by the new Bombardier T-1's that are arriving every week. After Sheppard is complete, several other subway projects are scheduled to begin, one at a time: EGLINTON WEST SUBWAY, WESTBOUND FROM THAT STATION TO THE FORMER YORK CITY CENTRE (5 STATIONS, 4.7 km) SPADINA-YORK UNIVERSITY SUBWAY, NORTHBOUND FROM DOWNSVIEW TO YORK UNIVERSITY (3 STATIONS, 4.4 km) SCARBOROUGH RT EXTENSION, FROM McCOWAN UP TO SHEPPARD (4 STATIONS, 3.2 km) Even more projects are proposed but will have to wait until the above ones are complete, several years down the road.
    - Subject: Re: SHEPPARD STREET SUBWAY, TORONTO
    - Message Number: 761657
    - Posted by: Nathan
    - Date: Mon Jan 12 14:10:42 1998
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: SHEPPARD STREET SUBWAY, TORONTO posted by Brian Wolk on January 04, 1998 at 15:19:59: I heard that the trains on the Sheppard Subway are going to consist of four cars (opposed to the standard six) until traffic rises to warrant 6 car trains. Is that true?
      - Subject: Re: SHEPPARD STREET SUBWAY, TORONTO
      - Message Number: 761721
      - Posted by: Brian Wolk
      - Date: Mon Jan 12 14:13:17 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: SHEPPARD STREET SUBWAY, TORONTO posted by Nathan on January 06, 1998 at 21:25:52: That's sounds right. H-1's are disappearing every day and they need as many extra T-1's as possible to service the Y-U-S line. You can guarantee that they'll never use T-1's on the trashy B-D line!

Thread title: Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names (dual names) (761275)
Started on Mon Jan 5 22:16:38 1998, by si2000

Subject: Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names (dual names)
Message Number: 761275
Posted by: si2000
Date: Mon Jan 5 22:16:38 1998

In Reply to: [8]Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names posted by Lou from Middletown on December 29, 1997 at 09:21:29: For the years the Bay Parkway station on the Culver 'F' line had signs that read - 'Bay Parkway - 22 Avenue'. Many, many years ago Bay Parkway was called 22nd Avenue. But, the Sea Beach and West End Bay Parkway stations never had dual names. The Neptune - Van Siclklen station was once only known as 'Van Sicklen' after the town that once existed there. (There is a Van Sicklen Street nearby, but not at or near the actual station). Any other dual names out there ??
- Subject: Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names (dual names)
- Message Number: 761276
- Posted by: Timothy Speer
- Date: Mon Jan 5 22:16:41 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names (dual names) posted by si2000 on December 30, 1997 at 08:22:33: How about the Far Rockaway branch on the A?
  - Subject: Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names (dual names)
  - Message Number: 761281
  - Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
  - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:16:50 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names (dual names) posted by Timothy Speer on December 30, 1997 at 08:45:56: Officially Queens County has 3 postal names: LIC, Flushing, and Jamaica. All the little town names like Bellerose, Forest Hills, Elmhurst, etc. are names given to areas before the County changed from being like Nassau County to being a part of NYC. They are all informal village and post office substation names. The names on all the Rockaway line stations are these informal village names, like Arverne, Edgemere, Rockaway Park, etc. They are all part of Jamaica postal district, but retain their pre-1898 "town/village" names as a custom. Queens is the only borough where you don't have to write the address as "Queens, NY", but can write the town name. The Bronx goes the other way: Some in the Bronx write "New York, NY" as part of their address.
    - Subject: Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names (dual names)
    - Message Number: 761282
    - Posted by: Charles Fiori
    - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:16:52 1998
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names (dual names) posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 30, 1997 at 12:00:00: Interesting to read in yesterday's NY Newsday that three towns in what is now Nassau County opted not to join the "rest of Queens" in aligning with the newly consolidated City of New York in 1897. Can you imagine if Queens had gone all the way out to Hempstead???
      - Subject: Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names (dual names)
      - Message Number: 761284
      - Posted by: Timothy Speer
      - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:16:58 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names (dual names) posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 30, 1997 at 12:00:00: Okay, then -- that makes me wonder about that little bit of The Bronx on the North side of the Broadway Bridge. I seem to rememeber that it is technically part of Manhattan and/or New York County. Anyone know what I'm talking about?
        
        Subject: Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names (dual names)
        Message Number: 761289
        Posted by: Todd Glickman
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:17:11 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names (dual names) posted by Timothy Speer on December 30, 1997 at 12:21:34: Correct, part of it is Marble Hill. I went to nursery school there :-)
        
        Subject: Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names (dual names)
        Message Number: 761296
        Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:17:25 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names (dual names) posted by Timothy Speer on December 30, 1997 at 12:21:34: Yes. The Harlem River was rerouted to be straighter a long time ago. However, the land that used to be on the island of Manhattan but was moved to the Bronx by this River relocation is still part of New York County and the Borough of Manhattan. It even has Manhattan-colored street signs.
        
        Subject: Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names (dual names)
        Message Number: 761297
        Posted by: Timothy Speer
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:17:27 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names (dual names) posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 30, 1997 at 13:57:44: I thought they changed all the street signs citywide to green with white letters.
        
        Subject: Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names (dual names)
        Message Number: 761299
        Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:17:30 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names (dual names) posted by Timothy Speer on December 30, 1997 at 14:01:47: To be perfectly honest, I haven't been through that many boroughs in a number of years. Just Manhattan and the Flatbush part of Brooklyn. My mistake. But it used to be that way.
        
        Subject: Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names (dual names)
        Message Number: 761301
        Posted by: Timothy Speer
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:17:41 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names (dual names) posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 30, 1997 at 14:29:01: I miss the borough-specific street sign colors. This is how I remember them. Am I right? Manhattan: black on gold Brooklyn: white on black The Bronx: white on blue Queens: blue on white Staten Island: I forget -- anyone remember?
        
        Subject: Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names (dual names)
        Message Number: 761435
        Posted by: Mark Oring
        Date: Mon Jan 12 11:01:08 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names (dual names) posted by Timothy Speer on December 30, 1997 at 14:37:31: You were mostly correct on the street sign colors, except the "white" you refer to was actually a cream color or light tan. I lived in Queens until 1980 and I remember the blue on tan street signs. I liked it better when each borough had its own color. I think the white on green is pretty much standard throughout the country. I've been living in south Florida since 1980. With the exception of a few old signs (very few) that are still in black on white, all street signs in all counties and municipalities here are white on green.

Thread title: Changes on MUNI in San Francisco (761287)
Started on Mon Jan 5 22:17:05 1998, by Todd Glickman

Subject: Changes on MUNI in San Francisco
Message Number: 761287
Posted by: Todd Glickman
Date: Mon Jan 5 22:17:05 1998

I just came back from a quick visit to San Francisco (BART, MUNI subway and streetcars, Market/Surface PCCs, cable cars, trackless trolleys!). MUNI has just announced the following: Effective in January, the "E Embarcadero" line will open. Initially it will operate with a shuttle between Embarcadero (the current terminal of the J,K,L,M,N streetcar lines) and the Caltrain Station, with intermediate stops at Folsom, Branna, and 2nd/King. The interesting thing here is that this shuttle will operate on a Proof of Payment (POP) system, whereby you have to buy a ticket and retain it while on the car; operators will no longer accept cash. In addition, when two or three car trains are used, the operator in the front car will control the doors in all cars, and there will be no personnel in the trailer cars. MUNI's brochure says that POP will be phased in on other lines in the future. In addition, on 10 January, the MUNI Metro Subway will resume service from after 10 p.m. until close of service. For the past few years, the subway service has had shuttle bus substitution for these hours to pemrit installation of a new signal system which is designed to improve the operation by allowing shorter headways. I believe it is a moving block system similar to that which is proposed for testing on our L/Canarsie line. By the way, the new Breda streecars are being well received; the Boeing LRVs which are now 20+ years old still run as they do here in Boston. But the crowning jewel is the F/Market surface line with its overhauled ex-Septa PCC cars. If only other cities could follow this lead!
- Subject: Re: Changes on MUNI in San Francisco
- Message Number: 761321
- Posted by: Mark S Feinman
- Date: Mon Jan 5 22:18:24 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Changes on MUNI in San Francisco posted by Todd Glickman on December 30, 1997 at 12:40:16: Wow, Todd, you surely do get around! Are you doing weekend weather stints at a California all news station? :) Seriously, you said that "In addition, when two or three car trains are used, the operator in the front car will control the doors in all cars, and there will be no personnel in the trailer cars." Do you know how the POP system would be enforced in cases like this? --Mark
  - Subject: Re: Changes on MUNI in San Francisco
  - Message Number: 761340
  - Posted by: david vartanoff
  - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:19:15 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Changes on MUNI in San Francisco posted by Mark S Feinman on December 30, 1997 at 21:51:22: In general POP systems out here (San Jose, Sacremento) entail randomized sweeps by cops or fare enforcers who walk through the cars challenging all riders to produce 'proof'. It has been said by Muni that up to 75% of riders in rush hour are flashpass users , thus it's mostly moot.
    - Subject: Re: Changes on MUNI in San Francisco
    - Message Number: 761347
    - Posted by: Todd Glickman
    - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:19:34 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: Changes on MUNI in San Francisco posted by Mark S Feinman on December 30, 1997 at 21:51:22: The MUNI brochure says that roving inspectors will check fares. The fine for not having a ticket or Flashpass is $126. To answer your question, no, I won't be on KNX 1070 or KFWB News98 (Los Angeles), or KCBS All-news 74 (San Francisco). In fact, I leave Boston in a few hours and will take my "favorite and best commute": MBTA Green Line, Blue Line, Logan Bus 22, USAirways Shuttle to LGA, Q-33, then E-train to 5th/52nd, and will be on WCBS Newsradio-88 this afternoon and all day tomorrow to celebrate the New Year. Too bad there's no "Q" service on New Year's Day... but I have been known to say on the radio, "It's going to be a nice day to ride a Slant 40 over the Manhattan Bridge to get that great view of the city." Now THAT's Transit and Weather Together! Happy New Year to all.
      - Subject: Re: Changes on MUNI in San Francisco
      - Message Number: 761376
      - Posted by: Joe M
      - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:21:27 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Changes on MUNI in San Francisco posted by Todd Glickman on December 31, 1997 at 07:36:19: When I was in San Fran. in 96 the University campus station was POP system then. There were no controls on the station and no fare collection
        
        Subject: Re: Changes on MUNI in San Francisco
        Message Number: 761379
        Posted by: Zack
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:21:34 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Changes on MUNI in San Francisco posted by Todd Glickman on December 30, 1997 at 12:40:16: Portland Oregon's MAX runs like this and so does Vancouver B.C's Sky train one does wonder how many people ride without a "proof of paymet"
        
        Subject: Re: Changes on MUNI in San Francisco
        Message Number: 761380
        Posted by: Mike K
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:21:39 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Changes on MUNI in San Francisco posted by Todd Glickman on December 31, 1997 at 07:36:19: Todd-- As an avid 88 listener, I have to chide you... :-) You forgot the most important part of "Traffic and Weather Together" -- "...every 10 minutes on the eights!" BTW: How long does your favorite commute take? Keep up the good work! Mike
        
        Subject: Re: Changes on MUNI in San Francisco
        Message Number: 761394
        Posted by: Bootsy
        Date: Mon Jan 12 10:59:05 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Changes on MUNI in San Francisco posted by Mike K on December 31, 1997 at 19:58:17: Wait a minute! Hold on! Are you Mike Kennedy?? The traffic dude?
        
        Subject: Re: Changes on MUNI in San Francisco
        Message Number: 761395
        Posted by: Todd Glickman
        Date: Mon Jan 12 10:59:07 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Changes on MUNI in San Francisco posted by Mike K on December 31, 1997 at 19:58:17: My "favorite commute" from my house in suburban Boston to the WCBS studios in midtown Manhattan can take as little as three hours if I hit things right.... and all of the buses/subways come right on time. That, of course, occurs only when I'm not in a hurry! In a hurry? Wait forever and get stuck in traffic (Q-33) and 'behind a diabled train' (E or F). Usually the fastest part of the trip is the USAirways Shuttle from BOS-LGA, which is 40 minutes in the air.
        
        Subject: Re: Changes on MUNI in San Francisco
        Message Number: 761412
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Mon Jan 12 11:00:16 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Changes on MUNI in San Francisco posted by Todd Glickman on December 31, 1997 at 07:36:19: > "It's going to be a nice day to ride a Slant 40 over the Manhattan Bridge > to get that great view of the city." Now THAT's Transit and Weather > Together! Cool! I guess I better listen to you more carefully from now on! :) Happy New Year to you, too. --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: Changes on MUNI in San Francisco
        Message Number: 761463
        Posted by: Mike K
        Date: Mon Jan 12 11:02:13 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Changes on MUNI in San Francisco posted by Bootsy on January 01, 1998 at 02:49:11: Right church, wrong pew. I am NOT Mike Kennedy, the traffic guy. I am a broadcaster, however. I work for the Associated Press in New Jersey. Mike Klufas

Thread title: WHO'S GOT THE BEST? (761288)
Started on Mon Jan 5 22:17:08 1998, by SPENCER

Subject: WHO'S GOT THE BEST?
Message Number: 761288
Posted by: SPENCER
Date: Mon Jan 5 22:17:08 1998

AFTER BRIEFLY BROWSING THROUGH SOME OF THESE MESSAGES AN IDEA CAME TO ME. I HAVE BEEN INTO SUBWAYS AND THE LIKE SINCE 1993. IF YOU'VE GOT A SUBWAY QUESTION, CHANCES ARE PRETTY GOOD I CAN ANSWER IT. BUT TO ALL YOU FANATICS (AND I MEAN THAT IN A GOOD WAY) WHICH WORLD CITY DO YOU THINK HAS THE BEST SUBWAY? I'M NOT TALKIN' MILAGE. I'M NOT TALKLIN' NUMBER OF STATIONS. I'M TALKIN' WHICH IS THE BEST. AND LET'S SEE IF YOU CAN ANSWER THIS. HOW MANY CITIES HAVE SUBWAYS? NOW BEFORE YOU GO TO YOUR REFERENCE BOOKS OR YOUR BRAIN REMEMBER...A SUBWAY IS DEFINED(BY ME) AS ANY METROPOLITAN UNDERGROUND TRANSPORTATION SYSTEM. SO AMTRAK DOESN'T COUNT. THE UNDERGROUND LENGTH MUST MAKE UP AT LEAST HALF OF THE TOTAL SYSTEM LENGTH(SORRY, SHYTOWN. THAT MEANS YOU'RE NOT IN THIS.) AND GET BACK TO ME BEFORE JANUARY 20. LET'S SEE HOW SMART YOU "TUNNEL-DWELLERS" REALLY ARE.
- Subject: Re: WHO'S GOT THE BEST?
- Message Number: 761295
- Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
- Date: Mon Jan 5 22:17:23 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]WHO'S GOT THE BEST? posted by SPENCER on December 30, 1997 at 12:40:40: Here is what has to be done first: Turn off the Caps Lock key. If you think you know everything about subways since you've known about them since 1993, you could be overstating your case. As a comparison, I've known the intricacies of subways since I got my first NYC subway map in 1960, obtained reluctantly by my parents for their train-loving 9-year old. I've travelled extensively on about 2/3 the subway systems in the US and Canada, and about 10 of them in Europe. Some are streetcars that run for some distance underground, like in Stuttgart, Germany. Some are much above ground like Chicago, Hamburg, Amsterdam (no matter what you say about them). Even London's is probably more outdoors than underground. Some are small, like Baltimore's one line, some you've never heard of, like Nurnberg or Ludwigshafen. Et cetera, et cetera.... And I bet lots of the people here know a lot more about this stuff than I do!!! Anyway, down to cases... My personal favorites are Paris and Boston. Paris is just so darn convenient, with interesting stations, tunnels, trains with the seats that you put down to sit on, the subtle tone that sounds before the doors close (E above middle C), and the little handle you had to pull on to pop the doors open (now they use buttons). Boston is like being in a railroad amusement park, with 4 completely different lines each with its own extremely distinct personality. Every time you change lines, it's like entering a different world.
  - Subject: Re: WHO'S GOT THE BEST?
  - Message Number: 761298
  - Posted by: Mark Greenwald
  - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:17:29 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]WHO'S GOT THE BEST? posted by SPENCER on December 30, 1997 at 12:40:40: Oh---been riding the system since 1993?----A Whole 4-5 years----I guess You DO know everything about all the systems------------Do you want to be tested?

Thread title: Re: Marble Hill (was Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names (dual names)) (761293)
Started on Mon Jan 5 22:17:19 1998, by Peter Rosa

Subject: Re: Marble Hill (was Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names (dual names))
Message Number: 761293
Posted by: Peter Rosa
Date: Mon Jan 5 22:17:19 1998

In Reply to: [8]Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names (dual names) posted by Todd Glickman on December 30, 1997 at 12:44:34: Marble Hill is politically part of Manhattan because it once was physically attached to Manhattan Island. It became attached to the mainland (the Bronx) when the Harlem River was deepened and re-routed somtime in the late 1800s/early 1900s. As small as Marble Hill may be, it has a Metro-North stop and a subway station.

Thread title: R-62 question (761300)
Started on Mon Jan 5 22:17:36 1998, by Timothy Speer

Subject: R-62 question
Message Number: 761300
Posted by: Timothy Speer
Date: Mon Jan 5 22:17:36 1998

I haven't ridden R-62's a whole lot since 1988, and last week I got on the 4 train and was surprised to see a full-width cab on an R-62. Have these been around all along? I can't remember ever seeing one before.
- Subject: Re: R-62 question
- Message Number: 761304
- Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
- Date: Mon Jan 5 22:17:49 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]R-62 question posted by Timothy Speer on December 30, 1997 at 14:33:40: Then that's not the only thing you've missed. TA has combined the R62's into 5-car sets, permanantly copuled, with full width cabs in cars 1 and 5. -Hank
  - Subject: Re: R-62 question
  - Message Number: 761306
  - Posted by: Timothy Speer
  - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:17:54 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: R-62 question posted by Hank Eisenstein on December 30, 1997 at 15:29:55: I guess living in Buffalo for seven years will do that! Thanks!
    - Subject: Re: R-62 question
    - Message Number: 761368
    - Posted by: Alex LaBianca
    - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:20:56 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]R-62 question posted by Timothy Speer on December 30, 1997 at 14:33:40: Theoretically, the full-width cab R-62s are only supposed to be running on the 4. All of the R-62s are equipped with a collapsible cab section which can fold out to make a full width cab.

Thread title: Street signs (761302)
Started on Mon Jan 5 22:17:44 1998, by Charles Fiori

Subject: Street signs
Message Number: 761302
Posted by: Charles Fiori
Date: Mon Jan 5 22:17:44 1998

In Reply to: [7]Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names (dual names) posted by Timothy Speer on December 30, 1997 at 14:37:31: Staten Island was also black on gold. Anyone have any idea as to what happened to all the old street signs? Here in Chicago, the City of Chicago store sells the old signs and you can even have one made up to order.
- Subject: Re: Street signs
- Message Number: 761303
- Posted by: Timothy Speer
- Date: Mon Jan 5 22:17:47 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Street signs posted by Charles Fiori on December 30, 1997 at 14:48:17: I saw some old NYC street signs at United Housewrecking in Stamford CT a few years ago. They also have their own R-1 out back, and they use it to store toilets and sinks!

Thread title: Electronic Stop Indicator Signs (761305)
Started on Mon Jan 5 22:17:51 1998, by Nick

Subject: Electronic Stop Indicator Signs
Message Number: 761305
Posted by: Nick
Date: Mon Jan 5 22:17:51 1998

In Reply to: [8]Re: R-62 question posted by Hank Eisenstein on December 30, 1997 at 15:29:55: Are the electronic stop indicator signs only on the R-110B, or are they also on the R-110A?-Nick
- Subject: Re: Electronic Stop Indicator Signs
- Message Number: 761309
- Posted by: Steve
- Date: Mon Jan 5 22:18:00 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Electronic Stop Indicator Signs posted by Nick on December 30, 1997 at 15:54:59: If you are speaking of the electronic strip maps -they are not on the R-110A

Thread title: CAPS LOCK ON - Stop SHOUTING (761307)
Started on Mon Jan 5 22:17:56 1998, by Dan Lawrence

Subject: CAPS LOCK ON - Stop SHOUTING
Message Number: 761307
Posted by: Dan Lawrence
Date: Mon Jan 5 22:17:56 1998

A simple request to everyone who posts on SubTalk - check and make sure that the little light that shows that the Caps Lock is on is not lit. (That means that Caps Lock is OFF). Shouting is bad manners. If all of us were face-to face, shouting would be the worst bad manners. Same applies when we're on line. Thanks

Thread title: Re: SHEPPARD STREET SUBWAY, TORONTO /Link bad (761308)
Started on Mon Jan 5 22:17:58 1998, by Dan Lawrence

Subject: Re: SHEPPARD STREET SUBWAY, TORONTO /Link bad
Message Number: 761308
Posted by: Dan Lawrence
Date: Mon Jan 5 22:17:58 1998

In Reply to: [7]SHEPPARD STREET SUBWAY, TORONTO posted by Jason on December 30, 1997 at 07:19:54: The www.transport.nsw.gov.au/lightrail in the post results in a "no dns" error in Netcape. Is this correct? It should be a interest to all of us with a light rail interest. Check it and please reply.
- Subject: Re: SHEPPARD STREET SUBWAY, TORONTO /Link bad
- Message Number: 761310
- Posted by: Jason
- Date: Mon Jan 5 22:18:02 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Re: SHEPPARD STREET SUBWAY, TORONTO /Link bad posted by Dan Lawrence on December 30, 1997 at 18:04:06: I am suprised to get such a prompt reply - it is good to see that Americans are interested in matters outside the U.S !! (only kidding). I tried three times to reach the "bad connection" and succeeded each time (although I do have a Micrsoft browser - but that shouldn't affect things). If you still can't get through, the site can be found using Yahoo search engine, or probally others too. To access the site using Yahoo: (NB: "..." the quotation marks should not be typed) 1. In intial search mode type "new south wales government" 2. From results choose "States and territories: New South Wales Government" it should be number 3. 3. Then choose "Departments" 4. Then choose "Department of Transport" 5. On the NSW Department of Transport home page appears a picture of the Sydney Light Rail at the Casino Station. Click on this picture and you should enter the site qucikly. 6. The entire report can also be downloaded over the internet in addition to it being able to "seen" by scrolling pages. However, this function didn't work the last time I attempted to download the report. The report is quite interesting, if only for its pessimism with regard to low density land use being unable to support many of the shortlisted routes. Nevertheless, a number of viable cross city routes were identified including one passing through the new residential areas around the Olympic Site. You may also be interested to hear of the difficulties facing the proposed central city extension of the new light rail shown in some of the pictures of the site. The along street route is being opposed by some city centre retailers, as it passes through the Pitt Street pedestrian mall. Pitt St Mall commands the sixth highest rents of any street in the world and some of the land lords are unfortunately worried about a single light rail track. The private operators of the existing route are threatening to shelve the entire expansion plans - which also involves an extension along goods lines to the inner western suburbs - if the important city centre loop is not approved. Construction of this extension will begin early in 1998, IF approved. One more thing, I would really like to find out more about the Sheppard Street Subway. It is ironic that the best subway network in North Amercia has one of the worst home pages I have ever seen, especially when compared to the multi media displays detailing the major Jubilee underground extensions in London.

Thread title: Re: What service changes are we expected to see after the 63rd St-Queens (761314)
Started on Mon Jan 5 22:18:10 1998, by .

Subject: Re: What service changes are we expected to see after the 63rd St-Queens
Message Number: 761314
Posted by: .
Date: Mon Jan 5 22:18:10 1998
- Subject: Re: What service changes are we expected to see after the 63rd St-Queens
- Message Number: 761345
- Posted by: .
- Date: Mon Jan 5 22:19:30 1998
  - Subject: Re: What service changes are we expected to see after the 63rd St-Queens
  - Message Number: 761357
  - Posted by: .
  - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:20:05 1998
    - Subject: Re: What service changes are we expected to see after the 63rd St-Queens
    - Message Number: 761377
    - Posted by: .
    - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:21:30 1998
      - Subject: Re: What service changes are we expected to see after the 63rd St-Queens
      - Message Number: 761384
      - Posted by: .
      - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:21:59 1998

Thread title: "New Tech" contract numbers (761315)
Started on Mon Jan 5 22:18:13 1998, by Jeffrey from Brooklyn

Subject: "New Tech" contract numbers
Message Number: 761315
Posted by: Jeffrey from Brooklyn
Date: Mon Jan 5 22:18:13 1998

Does anybody know why the R-110 and R-110a are not known or called by their actual contract numbers of R-130 and R-131? From what I understand, the R-110 was the design contract for the new tech trains, not the actual cars as built.
- Subject: Re: "New Tech" contract numbers
- Message Number: 761320
- Posted by: Mark S Feinman
- Date: Mon Jan 5 22:18:22 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]"New Tech" contract numbers posted by Jeffrey from Brooklyn on December 30, 1997 at 19:57:27: I'll venture to guess that when the design of the trains was announced and reported in the press, the name "R-110A/B" must have stuck. It's kind of like the IND, BMT and IRT - these 'divisions' haven't existed for years on official NYC Transit press but people still refer to the numbered lines as IRT, and the lines in Brooklyn the BMT and the 6th/8th avenue lines (and Queens Blvd Lines) as the IND. --Mark
  - Subject: Re: "New Tech" contract numbers
  - Message Number: 761329
  - Posted by: Steve
  - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:18:44 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]"New Tech" contract numbers posted by Jeffrey from Brooklyn on December 30, 1997 at 19:57:27: I believe that the RFP (request for proposal) was numbered R-110XX and althought the trainw were purchased under other contract #s, the R-110 just stuck. BTW - The RFP for the R-143 closes January 5th. The contract should be awarded shortly after that date.
    - Subject: Re: "New Tech" contract numbers
    - Message Number: 761338
    - Posted by: Nick
    - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:19:08 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: "New Tech" contract numbers posted by Mark S Feinman on December 30, 1997 at 21:44:16: I can't wait for the R142s and R143s to arrive. I know they are expected to arrive in 1999...but what part of that year are they supposed to arrive (Early, mid, or late '99?)-NICK

Thread title: Re: SHEPPARD ST SUBWAY, TORONTO/New Link worked! (761316)
Started on Mon Jan 5 22:18:14 1998, by wsteil

Subject: Re: SHEPPARD ST SUBWAY, TORONTO/New Link worked!
Message Number: 761316
Posted by: wsteil
Date: Mon Jan 5 22:18:14 1998

In Reply to: [8]Re: SHEPPARD STREET SUBWAY, TORONTO /Link bad posted by Jason on December 30, 1997 at 19:28:53: Thanks for the yahoo info! The posted link gave the no dns message; the Yahoo link (which is the same as the link you typed) worked great. Go figure.

Thread title: Quick Changes - SEPTA's Broad St Subway (761318)
Started on Mon Jan 5 22:18:18 1998, by Bobw

Subject: Quick Changes - SEPTA's Broad St Subway
Message Number: 761318
Posted by: Bobw
Date: Mon Jan 5 22:18:18 1998

After reading the trials and tribulations of the Q and its quick changes of equipment, I wanted to pass along notice of the third (!) schedule change on the Broad St Subway here in Phila since Labor Day. The latest revision, effective 12/22, restores a service pattern that was introduced with the fall schedule changes in September. This extends the Ridge Spur from its off-peak terminal at Girard and peak terminal at Erie to Olney full-time during the day. Pull-ins and pull-outs start/end at Fern Rock. This pattern is in effect on weekdays. On Saturdays, all trains extend to Fern Rock. The big difference is that the Spur trains now operate express, where they were purely locals prior to September. These expresses stop at North Phila, while the Broad St expresses do not. On 10/27 this pattern was ended and Spur trains went back to their local duties at their old termini. Spur riders didn't like this and complained to SEPTA and some politicos and the September pattern was reinstituted. The Broad St expresses began to stop at North Phila also in September, but this stop is no longer an express train stop as of 12/22. To add to the confusion, however, Spur expresses DO stop at North Phila. I'm sure there will be complaints from express passengers who forget that the expresses that call at North Phila are headed for 8th & Market when the riders actually want to go further south on Broad St. (The Broad St subway is the one line in this town on which you REALLY have to watch the signs - and the signs on the Kawasakis aren't all that big or easy to read - one reason the schedules tell you to watch for the colors of the marker lights.) Broad St locals remain unchanged and are the only service provided on Sundays and holidays. At Fern Rock, trains have once again begun to go directly to the platform and change ends instead of the time-consuming move on northbound trains which looped around the yard facility in an attempt to move trains thru the station more quickly. NYCT fans will also note that the line is entirely OPTO and has been for a few years now. The Market-Frankford El will go OPTO with the M-4's.
- Subject: Re: Quick Changes - SEPTA's Broad St Subway
- Message Number: 761344
- Posted by: Mike K
- Date: Mon Jan 5 22:19:28 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Quick Changes - SEPTA's Broad St Subway posted by Bobw on December 30, 1997 at 20:52:54: Bob Being a Philly resident for two years now, and having been in the city regularly since 1993 (my wife is a born and bred Philadelphian), I have a question you might be able to answer. Why do the Broad Street line express trains only run to Walnut-Locust, instead of all the way to Pattison? I know there is a lay-up track right beyond the Walnut-Locust station for express trains. Is there, or was there ever, a lay-up track or loop for the locals? It would make more sense, in my mind, to run locals from Fern Rock to Walnut-Locust and expresses from Fern Rock to Pattison. The train that makes the fewest stops in a given space should cover the longest distance, no? Or is that something only an "amateur" transit "expert" would consider proper? Michael
  - Subject: Re: Quick Changes - SEPTA's Broad St Subway
  - Message Number: 761353
  - Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
  - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:19:47 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: Quick Changes - SEPTA's Broad St Subway posted by Mike K on December 31, 1997 at 02:02:43: Here's the service pattern during midday: A Broad St. local from Pattison to Fern Rock every 7 minutes. A Broad St. express from Walnut-Locust to Fern Rock every 14 minutes. A Ridge Avenue express from 8th-Market to Olney every 14 minutes. The service is every 3 minutes, 6 minutes, and 6 minutes during rush hour. They alternate expresses since all the express-local service is north of Girard where the two lines meet (actually they practically meet at the Fairmount local/Ridge Avenue stop, but that's getting complicated already). Most people from South Philadelphia are headed to Center City, not North Philadelphia, just as most Brooklyn people are headed for Manhattan, not the Bronx. To have the local go to Walnut-Locust and the Express go to Pattison requires the local to switch tracks 3 times between the southbound local at City Hall and the northbound local platform after turning around at Walnut-Locust. The express then uses the same switches to shrink into the two-track line to South Philadelphia. In New York, that is why the Q express ends at Brighton Beach and the D local goes into Coney Island. It is mostly logistics for the turnaround. Many years ago when the rush hour service was Local: 8th-Market to Erie, and Express: Pattison-Fern Rock, this problem did not exist, but with less but faster service to 8th-Market, this logistics problem at Walnut-Locust now exists. For those who are wondering: Yes, the expresses skipped Fairmount Avenue, and the Ridge Ave. line was the only service at that stop during rush hours in the old days. No, there were no express tracks north of Erie Avenue back then, just the empty track bed. The tracks were built about 12 years ago, I believe. Now with these new tracks the express service is great. You just have to watch which one you get and change at Girard if it is the wrong one. Here is a map of the Septa System, if I did the link right: Full Septa Map The Broad Street System is the yellow vertical line. The Ridge Avenue Spur is a small branch to the southeast from the Girard Avenue Station. It meets the Market St. Subway and the Patco Line at 8th St.
    - Subject: Re: Quick Changes - SEPTA's Broad St Subway
    - Message Number: 761378
    - Posted by: Mike K
    - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:21:32 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: Quick Changes - SEPTA's Broad St Subway posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 31, 1997 at 10:07:44: Carl-- Your link to the map failed, unfortunately. Michael
      - Subject: Re: Quick Changes - SEPTA's Broad St Subway
      - Message Number: 761402
      - Posted by: Andrew Byler
      - Date: Mon Jan 12 10:59:30 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Quick Changes - SEPTA's Broad St Subway posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 31, 1997 at 10:07:44: Perhaps it would help understanding to describe the Broad St. Subway physical plant. The line is the only four track express outside of New York City in the United States. The stations are: Fern Rock - Olney - Logan - Wyoming - Hunting Park - Erie - Allegheny - North Philadelphia - Susquehanna-Dauphin - Columbia - Girard - Fairmount - (Chinatown - 8th & Market on the Ridge Spur) - Spring Garden - Race-Vine - City Hall - Walnut-Locust - Lombard-South - Ellsworth-Federal - Tasker-Morris - Snyder - Oregon - Pattison The line is four tracks from the yard mouth at Fern Rock to Walnut-Locust, and the stations Olney, Erie, North Philadelphia, Girard, Spring Garden, Race-Vine, City Hall, Walnut-Locust are center platform express stops. South of Walnut-Locust, only the east half of the street was excavated, and all stops are a single center platform. The Ridge Spur is single track and was never intended to be otherwise. Provisions for turnbacks besides the three terminals are provided at Olney, Erie, and Walnut-Locust. The turnback pocket tracks at Olney and Walnut-Locust are directly accesible from the express tracks, while that at Erie is from the local tracks. Crossovers at Girard, Lombard-South, and Snyder also provide for turnback capability. The three turnback pocket tracks were all built with expansion of the system in mind. From north of Olney, the roadbed is lain for a couple of blocks for the extension of the four track line. At Erie, the four track pocket yard was intended to allow the local tracks to be diverted to the median of the Roosevelt Blvd. for extension northeastwards, while the two side tracks of the yard would continue north and rejoin the local track roadbeds. South of Walnut-Locust, it was once intended to extend the line south as four tracks to Snyder, where one branch would split and head southwestwards along Passyunk Ave. The Ridge Spur, of course, still is joined to the Patco line, and formerly was inteded to follow Locust St. into West Philly and then southwestwards along Woodland Ave. I hope this gives a clearer picture of the Broad St. Subway's physical layout. Andy Byler
        
        Subject: Re: Quick Changes - SEPTA's Broad St Subway
        Message Number: 761426
        Posted by: smitty
        Date: Mon Jan 12 11:00:46 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Quick Changes - SEPTA's Broad St Subway posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 31, 1997 at 10:07:44: you know what i love about the sub? it's philly's only real answer to a new york train. i've lived in this town for 15 years and just started using the sub back in '96. my usual method of getting around town is the el. i'm glad they are finally getting some new trains on it. i got my last glimpse when walking towards the stop at 46th st. before the tunnel. but how long will the trains last before the windows get scratched up by kids with too much free time? i hope that the whole city gets to enjoy 'em before they get all screwed up. any way the deal with the subways, i usually get off at spring garden st. because i go to community college. i have only taken the train north a couple of times to wyoming. i think if you want a new york train experience without going to new york, take the sub. and is it just me or has the city hall station gone down lately?
        
        Subject: Re: Quick Changes - SEPTA's Broad St Subway
        Message Number: 761432
        Posted by: Bobw
        Date: Mon Jan 12 11:01:01 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Quick Changes - SEPTA's Broad St Subway posted by Mike K on December 31, 1997 at 02:02:43: As you've seen in the following postings, there are many reasons why the express service ends at Walnut. Another two are the level of ridership and the availability of cars. When express service began in the late 50's all trains between the then-terminals of Fern Rock and Snyder were express in the peaks and local in off-peak. The Ridge Spur peak trains served local stops between Girard and Erie and extended to Fern Rock. An Erie-Snyder local service also operated (trains leaving Snyder alternated between express (Fern Rock) and local (Erie). This pattern did not last very long and was changed to all peak trains Fern Rock-Snyder express and all Ridge trains local 8th-Erie. The problem was than Fairmount station, being a local stop, was not served. The solution was to direct patrons to the Ridge Spur Fairmount stop. This pattern continued until 1979 (with the south terminal moving to Pattison in 1973). With a severe car shortage in '79 the express service was ended and all mainline trains operated local at all times. The Spur became a full-time shuttle between 8th and Girard. Later, it shut down completely (about '80-'81) to permit construction of the Commuter Tunnel. A bus substitute filled in and patrons were directed to use the free transfer to the Market-Frankford line at City Hall/15th to reach 8th as an alternate. When the Kawasaki cars began to arrive in '82-'83 the express service was revived as a Walnut-Olney operation, primarily with the new cars, supplemented by the mainline locals using the old cars. Apparently the thought was that the old express/local pattern would be reinstituted when all new cars were on line and the Spur was back in operation. However, the new express service became very popular and it was decided to keep it as a full-time weekday service, which would necessitate full-time mainline locals. Also, given the fast running time of the expresses, it was decided that any extension beyond express territory, where service delays, etc could foul reliability, was not worthwhile. Since the line is two tracks south of Pine St, express operation would not be very practical. The passenger volume in South Phila was also handled adequately by the locals. The only way for locals to turn back in the vicinity of Walnut would be to cross-over to the express tracks south of the station and then cross-over again north of the station. There is a cross-over between the local tracks north of Lombard-South, just at the point at which the two-track subway begins. A couple of other tidbits - starting just north of Oregon, the subway moves from being beneath the east side (northbound lanes) of Broad St to beneath the east sidewalk. It remains here the rest of the way to Pattison. Parts of the cover include a "local street" portion of Broad St in the area of Packer Ave. The subway moves to the west side of Broad just north of Snyder and then moves back to the east side for the Snyder station. Provision is in the tunnel for a connection to a possible Passyunk Ave line (once considered) as well as a four-track Snyder terminal (you can see the tracks are marked Track 3 and Track 4 by signs). Neither of these will probably ever be built. Apparently the lower level Pattison platform is out of service, from what I have heard lately. I do not know why. It was seldom used, even for storage. It was supposed to be used after stadium events for special expresses (this would allow patrons to know which trains were locals and which were expresses) but it was not.
        
        Subject: Re: Quick Changes - SEPTA's Broad St Subway
        Message Number: 761433
        Posted by: Bobw
        Date: Mon Jan 12 11:01:04 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Quick Changes - SEPTA's Broad St Subway posted by Mike K on December 31, 1997 at 02:02:43: I forgot to expand on the car issue! Sorry. The Kawasaki fleet is small (125 cars). It is barely sufficient for current operations. SEPTA learned this quite quickly after the new cars were all in operation. Even in the early 70's the old car fleet was in excess of 150 cars on any given day (of course this dropped to around 30 in the dark days of '79-'80). If you visit Fern Rock during the peak you will see very few cars in the yard. There are few spares. Any extension of express service will tap this even more. Thus, it's another argument to keep the current operation. It's interesting to watch the operation of the line when the Phillies play an afternoon weekday game. Typically these end right about the start of the afternoon peak. I have been told that the yard is practically empty during these times. Of course, the game expresses, which lose half their loads between Walnut (PATCO users) and City Hall (El, trolley and commuter rail users), can conveniently pick up regular express riders at those points and re-enter their usual service patterns.

Thread title: Dual Street Named Stations (was: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names (761323)
Started on Mon Jan 5 22:18:28 1998, by .

Subject: Dual Street Named Stations (was: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names
Message Number: 761323
Posted by: .
Date: Mon Jan 5 22:18:28 1998
- Subject: Re: Dual Street Named Stations (was: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names
- Message Number: 761335
- Posted by: .
- Date: Mon Jan 5 22:18:59 1998
  - Subject: Re: Dual Street Named Stations (was: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names
  - Message Number: 761369
  - Posted by: .
  - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:20:59 1998
    - Subject: Re: Dual Street Named Stations (was: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names
    - Message Number: 761422
    - Posted by: .
    - Date: Mon Jan 12 11:00:38 1998

Thread title: 2nd Ave or Manhattan Bridge Alternative (was: Re: Larry Reuter Interview on (761324)
Started on Mon Jan 5 22:18:31 1998, by .

Subject: 2nd Ave or Manhattan Bridge Alternative (was: Re: Larry Reuter Interview on
Message Number: 761324
Posted by: .
Date: Mon Jan 5 22:18:31 1998

Thread title: Re: 2nd Ave or Manhattan Bridge Alternative (was: Re: Larry Reuter Interview (761330)
Started on Mon Jan 5 22:18:48 1998, by .

Subject: Re: 2nd Ave or Manhattan Bridge Alternative (was: Re: Larry Reuter Interview
Message Number: 761330
Posted by: .
Date: Mon Jan 5 22:18:48 1998

Thread title: Re: Number of stations & track/route mileage - Addendum (761331)
Started on Mon Jan 5 22:18:50 1998, by Mark S Feinman

Subject: Re: Number of stations & track/route mileage - Addendum
Message Number: 761331
Posted by: Mark S Feinman
Date: Mon Jan 5 22:18:50 1998

In Reply to: [8]Re: Number of stations on New York Subway posted by Mark S Feinman on December 30, 1997 at 23:35:56: Found a page from the Federal Transit Administration with a whole slew of [9]statistics of nearly every mode of rail in the US. In terms of "directional route miles", it's DC 178.2 and NYC 492.9. In terms of track miles (I guess both revenue and non-revenue, the chart doesn't indicate otherwise), it's DC 192 and NYC 834.2. Number of stations in NY: 468. Data accurate as of early 1995. --Mark
- Subject: Re: Number of stations & track/route mileage - Addendum
- Message Number: 761348
- Posted by: Bob A
- Date: Mon Jan 5 22:19:36 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]Re: Number of stations & track/route mileage - Addendum posted by Mark S Feinman on December 30, 1997 at 23:49:32: There was a question (I mean answer!) on Jeopardy! yesterday which said that there were 469 stations. I wonder where they got their info from.
  - Subject: Re: Number of stations & track/route mileage - Addendum
  - Message Number: 761445
  - Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
  - Date: Mon Jan 12 11:01:27 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: Number of stations & track/route mileage - Addendum posted by Mark S Feinman on December 30, 1997 at 23:49:32: There is something weird about that DC number. We here always talk about finishing up the 101-mile system in the next 5 years. Their number appears to be the route miles times the number of tracks on the route (which is always 2). New York's number also appears to be the system mileage (about 237 miles) times 2, but that is inaccurate because most of NYC's routes have 3 or 4 tracks. I guess "directional route mileage" means: how much mileage does a train going straight somewhere go, without duplication of tracks or trains in the same direction, a pretty useless measurement to me because not many systems have one way routes, just a couple of miles in Paris, the South Ferry Loop on the 1/9 train, and the Heathrow Airport section in London, as rare examples. Hey, at least we're getting closer to the meaning behind all these numbers we're throwing around.

Thread title: Best & Worst Lines/F Train Blues (761332)
Started on Mon Jan 5 22:18:52 1998, by Steve

Subject: Best & Worst Lines/F Train Blues
Message Number: 761332
Posted by: Steve
Date: Mon Jan 5 22:18:52 1998

For all those who posted comments about the Best & Worst Subway Lines & especially for those who posted about the F train Blues, each was printed and faxed to the appropriate location this morning.
- Subject: Re: Best & Worst Lines/F Train Blues
- Message Number: 761350
- Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
- Date: Mon Jan 5 22:19:41 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]Best & Worst Lines/F Train Blues posted by Steve on December 30, 1997 at 23:51:29: What is the appropriate location?
  - Subject: Re: Best & Worst Lines/F Train Blues
  - Message Number: 761366
  - Posted by: Steve
  - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:20:49 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Best & Worst Lines/F Train Blues posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 31, 1997 at 09:44:23: Sorry, I should have been clearer. I sent the messages to the General Superintendents of the respective lines.
    - Subject: Re: Best & Worst Lines/F Train Blues
    - Message Number: 761382
    - Posted by: Adam
    - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:21:48 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: Best & Worst Lines/F Train Blues posted by Steve on December 31, 1997 at 16:47:52: Great! Thanks for taking the time to do this, Steve. This is a great way to get public opinion across to the people in charge. I hope that a lot of the MTA employees read this board and take note of all the important and creative ideas that are often presented.
      - Subject: Re: Best & Worst Lines/F Train Blues
      - Message Number: 761397
      - Posted by: Steve
      - Date: Mon Jan 12 10:59:12 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Best & Worst Lines/F Train Blues posted by Adam on December 31, 1997 at 20:30:17: I know that the NEW General Superintendent of Jamaica Shop was very interested in the comments, especially about the FILTHY F Trains. I am always interested in comments about the D line - good and bad.

Thread title: Re: Electronic Stop Indicator Signs-I answered my own question!! (761336)
Started on Mon Jan 5 22:19:01 1998, by Nick Battaglino

Subject: Re: Electronic Stop Indicator Signs-I answered my own question!!
Message Number: 761336
Posted by: Nick Battaglino
Date: Mon Jan 5 22:19:01 1998

In Reply to: [8]Re: Electronic Stop Indicator Signs posted by Steve on December 30, 1997 at 19:22:55: The R110-A does have the electronic stop indicator sign...the electric sign in the middle of the train telling you what the next stop is. Ironically, on the same day of asking this, I went into NYC (I live in Ct). I was waiting for the #2....and can you guess which train came!!! See my other R-110 post.....-NICK :)

Thread title: I finally got a ride on the R110-A!!!! (761337)
Started on Mon Jan 5 22:19:05 1998, by Nick

Subject: I finally got a ride on the R110-A!!!!
Message Number: 761337
Posted by: Nick
Date: Mon Jan 5 22:19:05 1998

The moment I've been waiting for finally came!! My friend and I were in Times Square, getting ready to go to Grand Central. It was decided it was too cold to walk, so the subway would be the means of transportation. Now normally you would take the shuttle to Grand Central, but we had time to kill, and I knew there was a fraction of a chance that I might get a ride on the R110-A, so I said what the heck, we'll take the long route. So I hopped on the downtown platform at 9:15 PM (Dec 30th) and in 2 min, I saw the train lights. This was the moment of truth...would it be a regular redbird, or high-tech? Well, I saw the front of the train that was stainless steel, and black in the front!!!! My mouth dropped wide open, and inside I was jumping for joy!! I was finally in a situation that I have been waiting for for 2-3 years!! Very much excited, I hopped on the train w/my friend, and sat down in one of the cars w/blue seats (forgot to catch the #) The train was neat!! I loved the computerized voice telling you everything you need to know about doors closing, what the next stop was and it's connecting trains. And I answered my own question by seeing the electronic next stop indicator. Luckily the train wasn't crowded, since I did notice how few seats there were, and I could imagine how bad the train can be if it was packed. I only got to ride the train for 5 minutes, and for that amount of time, the seats were comftorable...but I wonder if they would get uncomftorable if I rode it longer...like other people have said they are. So that's my story. I'm sure some of you think (but certainly lots of you understand) I have too much time on my hands, or that I don't get out very much. But that's not the case. Trains (especially subways) and high-tech things are a big hobby of mine. So I have been wanting to ride this since I heard about it, and my little dream finally came true....and helped 1997 end w/ a BANG! The MTA knew how to make my day!! Sorry for the long post....I don't get to write stuff like this very often!!-NICK
- Subject: Re: I finally got a ride on the R110-A!!!!
- Message Number: 761364
- Posted by: Lou from Brooklyn
- Date: Mon Jan 5 22:20:41 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]I finally got a ride on the R110-A!!!! posted by Nick on December 31, 1997 at 00:44:13: Still waiting for my ride on the A or the B... 110B don't ride on the D/Q much and I don't ride on the 8th Ave but my brother who woulnd't care if it were R110 or R1 hit it a few times on the C.
  - Subject: Re: I finally got a ride on the R110-A!!!!
  - Message Number: 761372
  - Posted by: Nick
  - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:21:16 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: I finally got a ride on the R110-A!!!! posted by Lou from Brooklyn on December 31, 1997 at 15:23:21: The R110B runs on the A/C lines only (unless thats been changed) not the D and Q. The A only runs on the #2 to my knowledge. I got it at 9:15 PM on the downtown side...I wonder if it runs like this every weekday.-Nick
    - Subject: Re: I finally got a ride on the R110-A!!!!
    - Message Number: 761381
    - Posted by: Adam
    - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:21:42 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]I finally got a ride on the R110-A!!!! posted by Nick on December 31, 1997 at 00:44:13: I'm sure that all of us here at SubTalk understand you! What a great way to end 1997! I remember a few years ago when they were previewing these new cars at 34th Street (they were parked on the express tracks of the N/R trains). I took a special trip down there to take a look and inspect them! HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYBODY!
      - Subject: Re: I finally got a ride on the R110-A!!!!
      - Message Number: 761392
      - Posted by: Bootsy
      - Date: Mon Jan 12 10:59:01 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]I finally got a ride on the R110-A!!!! posted by Nick on December 31, 1997 at 00:44:13: Jeez, I wish I got that kind of reaction from Nicole (that's her real name!) whenever she sees me! I guess to her I'm just a tired old R-33 :'-( Oh, if only I were a brand new R-110 in her eyes . . . . . . . . . . . What the hell am I talking about? ? ? I think I had a little too much Asti Cinzano.
        
        Subject: Re: I finally got a ride on the R110-A!!!!
        Message Number: 761414
        Posted by: Adam
        Date: Mon Jan 12 11:00:21 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: I finally got a ride on the R110-A!!!! posted by Bootsy on January 01, 1998 at 02:24:45: Hey Bootsy this is one of the funniest posts I have read in a while!
        
        Subject: Re: I finally got a ride on the R110-A!!!!
        Message Number: 761415
        Posted by: Bootsy
        Date: Mon Jan 12 11:00:22 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: I finally got a ride on the R110-A!!!! posted by Adam on January 02, 1998 at 00:46:22: Glad you liked it! But if Nicole found out . . . . oh boy! We may have the Malbone Street wreck all over again, figuratively-speaking!
        
        Subject: Re: I finally got a ride on the R110-A!!!!
        Message Number: 761424
        Posted by: carl
        Date: Mon Jan 12 11:00:42 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]I finally got a ride on the R110-A!!!! posted by Nick on December 31, 1997 at 00:44:13: good for you,nick! seriously. i remember when i first rode one. it was back in october. i was taking the subway to times square from the twin towers and i got on a train that wasn't the usual r-30( as much as i love the r-30 you need a little change. oh well.

Thread title: Destination Signs NJT and SEPTA (761339)
Started on Mon Jan 5 22:19:13 1998, by Steve L

Subject: Destination Signs NJT and SEPTA
Message Number: 761339
Posted by: Steve L
Date: Mon Jan 5 22:19:13 1998

Can anyone assist me in obtaining a list of destination signs for NJT Commuter Rail or SEPTA Regionals and Rapid Transit Lines (No Buses0 ) Thank you
- Subject: Re: Destination Signs NJT and SEPTA
- Message Number: 761343
- Posted by: Mike K
- Date: Mon Jan 5 22:19:25 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Destination Signs NJT and SEPTA posted by Steve L on December 31, 1997 at 00:49:22: For SEPTA regional rails, here are the ones I can think of off the top of my head... R1-Airport R1-Glenside R2-Marcus Hook R2-Wilmington (DE) R2-Newark (DE) R2-Warminster R3-West Trenton R3-Media R3-Elwyn R5-Downingtown R5-Malvern R5-Paoli R5-Lansdale R5-Doylestown R6-Elm Street (Norristown) R6-Cynwyd R7-Trenton R7-Chestnut Hill East R8-Chestnut Hill West R8-Fox Chase Center City There are also "local," "express," and "limited" signs that can be added in certain cases on the R2, R3 and R5. The color schemes are: R1-black letters on yellow background R2-white letters on maroon background R3-white letters on orange background R5-white letters on blue background R7-white letters on red background R8-white letters on brown background The center city designator, as well as the "express," "local," and "limited designators, are done in white letters on a black background. Hope this helps on the regional rail. Michael
  - Subject: Re: Destination Signs NJT and SEPTA
  - Message Number: 761349
  - Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
  - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:19:38 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]Destination Signs NJT and SEPTA posted by Steve L on December 31, 1997 at 00:49:22: The Market-Frankford Subway Elevated (MFSE) has no signs, just lit up white letters "A" and "B" for its skip-stop service. The two terminals are 69th St. and Bridge-Pratt Streets. The Broad Street Subway has a bunch of prepared glass displays that light up depending on what train it is. I believe the signs are: o Pattison o Walnut-Locust o Girard o Erie o Fern Rock o 8th-Market o Olney o Local o Express (lights up Green) There may be one or two more on there. The PATCO line into NJ is similar lit up lights: o 15-16 St. Locust o Ferry Avenue Camden o Haddonfield o Lindenwold o Local o Express There may be others. Someone who is currently in Philadelphia can correct this but this is a start, at least.
    - Subject: Re: Destination Signs NJT and SEPTA
    - Message Number: 761356
    - Posted by: Michael S. Buglak
    - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:19:53 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: Destination Signs NJT and SEPTA posted by Mike K on December 31, 1997 at 01:53:43: I have also seen these signs on SEPTA Regional Rail: R2 Baldwin (not currently used) (White On Maroon) R3 Secane (White On Orange) R5 Bryn Mawr (White On Blue) Center City Philadelphia (Black on Yellow) Glenside (White On Black) No Riders (small Yellow On Red) 30th Street Station (White On Black) Suburban Station (White On Black) Market East Station (White On Black) The SEPTA signs are about 16" wide by 3" high. They are printed on both sides (example-R6 Norristown/R6 Cynwyd) & made to fit into racks in the front window & sides of all cars. SEPTA does not use electronic destination signs on Regional Rail cars. BTW, the color for the R6 line is White On Green. Hope this helps!-Michael S. Buglak, Collegeville, PA
      - Subject: Re: Destination Signs NJT and SEPTA
      - Message Number: 761431
      - Posted by: Bobw
      - Date: Mon Jan 12 11:00:58 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Destination Signs NJT and SEPTA posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 31, 1997 at 09:43:53: The Broad St signs appear to be correct. I know there are 9 spots on a 3x3 grid on the signs which light up. These signs always amused me, given their small size (especially the front signs!). I had heard that consideration was being given to replacement with electronic dot signs, but have not seen this in practice. Most Broad St riders don't watch signs, which can cause trouble sometimes. The M-4 cars coming to the Market-Frankford line will have electronic dot side signs in addition to the A/B indicators. The Budd cars only have the A/B lighted signs on the front and sides. PATCO cars have six side signs which are back-lit. The messages are: Philadelphia Local Philadelphia Express Lindenwold Local Lindenwold Express Woodcrest Local Ferry Ave Local The front signs, which are curtains, have the same messages, including SPECIAL and Haddonfield Local. The Haddonfield trains stopped running after Woodcrest opened. Specials once ran in front of Ferry Ave trains and skipped Ferry Ave, Collingswood and Westmont. These were usually (but not always) followed by Haddonfield locals which in turn were followed by Lindenwold expresses. The current schedule is not as complicated. Ferry Ave trips have not been scheduled since about 1990. Commuter trains have the side panel sides mentioned in another posting. Some cars also have flip-type panels on the right side of the headlight opposite the number panel (which is above the engineer's cab) on the front. These signs are also small and very hard to read.
        
        Subject: Re: Destination Signs NJT and SEPTA
        Message Number: 761530
        Posted by: steve
        Date: Mon Jan 12 11:05:34 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Destination Signs NJT and SEPTA posted by Steve L on December 31, 1997 at 00:49:22: thank you-----steve

Thread title: Re: SEPTA's Broad St Subway (Lower Level @ Pattison Ave.) (761358)
Started on Mon Jan 5 22:20:16 1998, by Michael S. Buglak

Subject: Re: SEPTA's Broad St Subway (Lower Level @ Pattison Ave.)
Message Number: 761358
Posted by: Michael S. Buglak
Date: Mon Jan 5 22:20:16 1998

In Reply to: [8]Re: Quick Changes - SEPTA's Broad St Subway posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 31, 1997 at 10:07:44: If I remember correctly, Pattison Avenue on SEPTA's Broad Street Subway is a 2-level station. Usually, only the upper level is in use. Has the lower level platform been used any time recently? If not, has it ever been used in revenue service? Michael S. Buglak, Collegeville, PA
- Subject: Re: SEPTA's Broad St Subway (Lower Level @ Pattison Ave.)
- Message Number: 761362
- Posted by: Tony DeSantis
- Date: Mon Jan 5 22:20:31 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Re: SEPTA's Broad St Subway (Lower Level @ Pattison Ave.) posted by Michael S. Buglak on December 31, 1997 at 13:18:09: Yes, it is a bi-level station. The upper level is used all the time. The lower level is used only for stadium events.

Thread title: HAPPY NEW YEAR!!! (761363)
Started on Mon Jan 5 22:20:35 1998, by Charles Fiori

Subject: HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!
Message Number: 761363
Posted by: Charles Fiori
Date: Mon Jan 5 22:20:35 1998

Thanks to all my SubTalk friends for a great year. I learned a lot with you all, had some fun, and hopefully was able to contribute something in the process. Peace be with all of you. :-) May much success, health, and happiness come to all of you. A special thanks to David P. and all his associate webmeisters for keeping this venture going.

Thread title: commter rail line signals (761370)
Started on Mon Jan 5 22:21:03 1998, by subway-buff

Subject: commter rail line signals
Message Number: 761370
Posted by: subway-buff
Date: Mon Jan 5 22:21:03 1998

I have a question on signals. NJT uses the signals showing position such as * * * for stop * * * for green and * * * for yellow- and that is my question. Sometimes the yellow (or the diagonal lights if just amber) are solid and sometimes it is a flashing yellow. What is the difference between the two? (Some signals use Red, yellow and green, and some just amber)
- Subject: Re: commter rail line signals
- Message Number: 761396
- Posted by: Steve
- Date: Mon Jan 12 10:59:10 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]commter rail line signals posted by subway-buff on December 31, 1997 at 18:52:40: A train signal has 3 components. The first is the aspect - what the signal shows such as the diagnal line. The second is the name - what it's called. Finally, the indication - the information that is conveyed. The aspect (diagonal lights) varies depending on which way the diagonal runs. From right to left, is called APPROACH and from left to right is called CAUTION. A flashing aspect is referred to as Absolute such as ABSOLUTE APPROACH. Many of the LIRR engineers refer to it as ADVANCED APPROACH. APPROACH means enter the block prepared to stop at the next signal. My understanding is that ADVANCED APPROACH is somewhat less restrictive.

Thread title: Turnstiles( was Re: Oops!) (761371)
Started on Mon Jan 5 22:21:12 1998, by subway-buff

Subject: Turnstiles( was Re: Oops!)
Message Number: 761371
Posted by: subway-buff
Date: Mon Jan 5 22:21:12 1998

In Reply to: [8]Re: Oops! posted by Andrew Huie on December 31, 1997 at 00:04:22: The base of the turnstiles was metal, but the actual part of the turnstil that prevented access- the arms were wood. If you will visit the museum you'll find these turnstiles as well as the original token Iron Maidens. These turnstiles differ from later models in that they had four arms mounted parallel to the floor and the later perry models with the metall arms were three arms perpedicular to the floor 120 degrees apart.

Thread title: Happy New Year - Free Rides (761373)
Started on Mon Jan 5 22:21:19 1998, by Joe M

Subject: Happy New Year - Free Rides
Message Number: 761373
Posted by: Joe M
Date: Mon Jan 5 22:21:19 1998

Milwaukee is running free bus service sponsored by Miller and I think the CTA has $.01 fares tonight Anyone else doing free or reduced fares tonight? Happy New Year to all. Hope you have a great year!!!
- Subject: Re: Happy New Year - Free Rides
- Message Number: 761383
- Posted by: Adam
- Date: Mon Jan 5 22:21:54 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Happy New Year - Free Rides posted by Joe M on December 31, 1997 at 19:35:30: Well, they used to give free rides on New Years on the subway until recently. Does anybody know when this ended? I think that the LIRR gives free rides on New Years, though. The only thing different that the subway is doing is running the S shuttle in Times Square all night instead of ending it at 12 AM. Having gone to Times Square last year, I must say that the subway ride back home was the most enjoyable part of the evening! One drunk guy had the entire subway car hysterical laughing! HAVE A SAFE AND HEALTHY AND HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYBODY!!!!
  - Subject: Re: Happy New Year - Free Rides
  - Message Number: 761420
  - Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
  - Date: Mon Jan 12 11:00:34 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]Happy New Year - Free Rides posted by Joe M on December 31, 1997 at 19:35:30: Washington's Metro was free from Midnight until 2:00 AM on New Year's Eve.

Thread title: Re: caps lock off - Shh (oops here comes the TRAINNN) (761374)
Started on Mon Jan 5 22:21:22 1998, by jm

Subject: Re: caps lock off - Shh (oops here comes the TRAINNN)
Message Number: 761374
Posted by: jm
Date: Mon Jan 5 22:21:22 1998

In Reply to: [7]CAPS LOCK ON - Stop SHOUTING posted by Dan Lawrence on December 30, 1997 at 17:56:19: My wife is an audiologist and can help the hard of hearing but it's probably caused by too many hours in the subway anyway. Happy hollidays

Thread title: New Year's Wishes (761387)
Started on Mon Jan 12 10:58:41 1998, by Peter Rosa

Subject: New Year's Wishes
Message Number: 761387
Posted by: Peter Rosa
Date: Mon Jan 12 10:58:41 1998

Happy New Year to all Subtalkers! Here's wishing that we see, in 1998, the resumption of full Manhattan Bridge service and the start of construction on the Second Avenue subway, and the ... hey, wait a minute, I must've been thinking of 2098!!! Anyway, here's to a terrific 1998!
- Subject: Re: New Year's Wishes
- Message Number: 761389
- Posted by: Bootsy
- Date: Mon Jan 12 10:58:54 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]New Year's Wishes posted by Peter Rosa on January 01, 1998 at 00:00:28: Always wish for the best, my man! Always wish for the best! And who knows? Maybe our wishes really will come true! Now - the Bridge and Second Avenue -- we may have to wish a little harder on those.

Thread title: Last years reflections from a Subway buff and a glance at the future (761388)
Started on Mon Jan 12 10:58:46 1998, by Philip E. Dominguez

Subject: Last years reflections from a Subway buff and a glance at the future
Message Number: 761388
Posted by: Philip E. Dominguez
Date: Mon Jan 12 10:58:46 1998

In Reply to: [7]New Year's Wishes posted by Peter Rosa on January 01, 1998 at 00:00:28: Last year was an interesting year for the New York Subway, some highlights are: - July 4th was the first day that transit riders were able to get a free transfer from train to bus using MetroCard Gold. - In June Metrocard gold became usable at all train stations. - In the fall there was a major subway accident in queens on the IND local tracks near Stienway Street. - R-40's begin running on the Brighton Exp.(Q) and R-68a's begin running on the West End Line(B) - OPTO Begins (correct me if I am wrong) - Unlimited fare plan(monthly pass, weekly pass, and daily pass)annonced - and much more... And now a Quick Look at the future( as I predict)... The R-26's become the first group of redbirds to be retired, The (F) Line express service is started again, The G train is extended to church ave, A viaduct(el) over second or third ave is seriously considered and planning is started on the "new" el from Ditmars Blvd to Laguardia Airport. Also the MTA re-starts Rush-hour (C) service to Rockaway park

Thread title: Manhattan Bridge FAll APART!!!!!!! (761399)
Started on Mon Jan 12 10:59:20 1998, by Christopher Rivera

Subject: Manhattan Bridge FAll APART!!!!!!!
Message Number: 761399
Posted by: Christopher Rivera
Date: Mon Jan 12 10:59:20 1998

I have done alot research on the Manhattan Bridge. When it was Built it did not have the lower level for the Trains. But when the people demanded to expand the New york City Subway System they decided to add the Tracks and make a new lower level for the Trains but the people who made the bridge were worried that the Bridge might not hold both the cars and the 4 ton trains. But they did it. And now the bridge might colapes under all the pressure. It is rusting Quickly. Now the Manhattan Bridge is a Catatrophey wating to happen. If you want more go near the bottom of the page nad look for something called the Manhattan Btridge Catastophey. I will also like help from people who are model makers to see if the Manhattan Bridge can be repaired or will have to be destroyed. Also I hope that people who wrote the Manhattan Bridge Catastrophey can help me with more information so that we can save millions of lives and let the DOT and MTA now how dangerous it is and scary it is to go acrose that bridge. So help me. Oh I am only 12 years old. So thank you for your time.
- Subject: Re: Manhattan Bridge FAll APART!!!!!!!
- Message Number: 761401
- Posted by: Nick
- Date: Mon Jan 12 10:59:27 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Manhattan Bridge FAll APART!!!!!!! posted by Christopher Rivera on January 01, 1998 at 13:45:48: Well if thats the case (i'm not familaiar w/ the bridge) I hope Rudy and the MTA not only know about it, but do something about it!!-Nick
  - Subject: Re: Manhattan Bridge FAll APART!!!!!!!
  - Message Number: 761410
  - Posted by: Mike Rothenberg
  - Date: Mon Jan 12 10:59:58 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Manhattan Bridge FAll APART!!!!!!! posted by Christopher Rivera on January 01, 1998 at 13:45:48: Christopher, you are a smart boy! It's good that you were able to do research and learn about the bridge problems. I and other people wrote about it in the last few weeks. (You even might find what we wrote further down in the older postings.) Maybe you should write letters to the mayor and the head of the MTA. Two of the four tracks have been out of service for at least ten years, I think. From what I read here, the highest priorities of the MTA are two projects: (1) connect the Long Island Railroad to Grand Central Terminal, using the 63rd St. tunnel that was designed for this, and (2) building the 2nd Ave. subway. Solving Manhattan Bridge problems wasn't included.
    - Subject: Re: Manhattan Bridge FAll APART!!!!!!!
    - Message Number: 761416
    - Posted by: subway-buff
    - Date: Mon Jan 12 11:00:25 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: Manhattan Bridge FAll APART!!!!!!! posted by Nick on January 01, 1998 at 14:17:33: There is an old saying "hope springs eternal." I think that NYCT, MTA, etc. keep thinking that the bridge will reopen in spite of the doomsayers and that everything is going to be okay. My thoughts: right now there is a movie Titanic. The captain yhought his ship was unsinkable and we know what happened. I am afraid that nothing will be done until: 1- Bridge is officially closed to rail and/or vehicles 2- Bridge collapses or partially collapses which will close the rest of the bridge. I think they will not do anything until "forced" (I hope I am wrong and I hope I am not on the bridge when it goes!!- fully or partially[in which case people will be killed fleeing the bridge].)
      - Subject: Re: Manhattan Bridge FAll APART!!!!!!!
      - Message Number: 761418
      - Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
      - Date: Mon Jan 12 11:00:30 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Manhattan Bridge FAll APART!!!!!!! posted by Christopher Rivera on January 01, 1998 at 13:45:48: You seem to understand really that the Manhattan Bridge is a vital link between two crowded boroughs. It about 1/7 the total road and and 1/10 the total track system between the Island of Long and the Island of Manhattan, which really is a substantial proportion. And already half the tracks on it are completely unused. However, not to be picky, but if the bridge collapsed, at most only 7000 people would be killed, 3000 on a northbound train, 3000 on a southbound train, and maybe 800 cars of people. Pretty morbid, even if it isn't millions of people? Even if one car went over the edge and killed 2 people, or one train dangled over the side, scaring the heck out of a few hundred people, it would be awful. But it is not millions.
        
        Subject: Re: Manhattan Bridge FAll APART!!!!!!!
        Message Number: 761450
        Posted by: Eric B
        Date: Mon Jan 12 11:01:40 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Manhattan Bridge FAll APART!!!!!!! posted by subway-buff on January 02, 1998 at 08:01:53: The TA has not forgotten the Manhattan Bridge. There's the East River Crossings study I posted about earlier, which has recommended a connection from Dekalb to the F (Rutgers) tunnel. This proposal, like all others, has to go through approval and funding stages, and it always takes time, regardless of any fears about the bridge suddenly collapsing. You know how they do things today. And just look at how long it is taking for the other projects that were mentioned as "The TA's currnt priority". They do want to get to work on this connection as soon as they can; in the next decade if possible, and that is alot faster than they have built anything else these last several decades.
        
        Subject: Re: Manhattan Bridge FAll APART!!!!!!!
        Message Number: 761470
        Posted by: Christopher Rivera
        Date: Mon Jan 12 11:02:36 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Manhattan Bridge FAll APART!!!!!!! posted by Eric B on January 02, 1998 at 19:33:42: The Connection will take a long time first traffic will be a nightmare. Plus lines will have to have terminate for this tunnel to be made. The F train will have to run on the A,C line from Jay street to W 4 street. That will be bad for people trhey will have to make a suttle train from W 4 street to East Broadway. THe rutgers connection will make a mess of a line which has enough problems. The F train is one of the LOngest lines in the City. To shorten it will be a problem. Is there anyway that there can be a connection without taking a away service?
        
        Subject: Re: Manhattan Bridge FAll APART!!!!!!!
        Message Number: 761471
        Posted by: Christopher Rivera
        Date: Mon Jan 12 11:02:41 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Manhattan Bridge FAll APART!!!!!!! posted by Eric B on January 02, 1998 at 19:33:42: The Connection will take a long time first traffic will be a nightmare. Plus lines will have to have terminate for this tunnel to be made. The F train will have to run on the A,C line from Jay street to W 4 street. That will be bad for people they will have to make a suttle train from W 4 street to East Broadway. The rutgers connection will make a mess of a line which has enough problems. The F train is one of the LOngest lines in the City. To shorten it will be a problem. Is there anyway that there can be a connection without taking a away service?
        
        Subject: Re: Manhattan Bridge FAll APART!!!!!!!
        Message Number: 761483
        Posted by: Eric B
        Date: Mon Jan 12 11:03:32 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Manhattan Bridge FAll APART!!!!!!! posted by Christopher Rivera on January 03, 1998 at 13:07:58: The service diversions will probably only be on nights and weekends, like the current 63rd St connection. Service would be affected on major work like the blasting of the tunnel wall for the connection, but the bulk of the work will be in the new tunnel, away from the existing tracks.
        
        Subject: Re: Manhattan Bridge FAll APART!!!!!!!
        Message Number: 761486
        Posted by: Nick
        Date: Mon Jan 12 11:03:37 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Manhattan Bridge FAll APART!!!!!!! posted by Eric B on January 03, 1998 at 18:33:34: I saw on an A&E subway special (which aired a few years ago) that the TA has plans for this tunnel in the early 2000s (like 2003-2007 or so) I hope this happens, and w/o F service being shortened.-Nick
        
        Subject: Re: Manhattan Bridge FAll APART!!!!!!!
        Message Number: 761612
        Posted by: Mr. Language
        Date: Mon Jan 12 14:07:46 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Manhattan Bridge FAll APART!!!!!!! posted by Christopher Rivera on January 01, 1998 at 13:45:48: Please check your SPELLING!!!!!!! (and grammar too).

Thread title: Writing in New York, nowadays ! (761403)
Started on Mon Jan 12 10:59:33 1998, by Pilot

Subject: Writing in New York, nowadays !
Message Number: 761403
Posted by: Pilot
Date: Mon Jan 12 10:59:33 1998

Nice day guys, I'm a german study (and of course a writer), from the Berufs-Ober- School in N�rnberg, writing an essay about "the reaction of society to present-time graffiti in new york ". In this context i have some questions (they relate to New York and to the period of time between 1996 and now): 1. What antigraffiti measures have begun in the last two years? 2. Are there also positive reactions to graffiti (e.g.: through other "conventional" artists)? 3. What kind of socio-economic background does today's writer have? 4. How has society(Authorities,Press,Art-scene and Teenagers) been reacting to graffiti in the last two years? It would be cool if someone could answer me these questions or give me an hint where i can find information about this subjekt. Thanks a lot. (Thanks to susan for helping) Pilot
- Subject: Re: Writing in New York, nowadays !
- Message Number: 761407
- Posted by: Joe-M
- Date: Mon Jan 12 10:59:50 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]Writing in New York, nowadays ! posted by Pilot on January 01, 1998 at 18:41:39: You missed the real questions. 1. How much does it cost to clean it up? 2. How much of it is gang related and encourages gang actitivty? 3. Why does one feel the need to deface someone elses property? You would probably pretty mad if someone tagged your BMW or SAAB.
  - Subject: Re: Writing in New York, nowadays !
  - Message Number: 761408
  - Posted by: Joe-M
  - Date: Mon Jan 12 10:59:54 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]Writing in New York, nowadays ! posted by Pilot on January 01, 1998 at 18:41:39: You missed the real questions. 1. How much does it cost to clean it up? 2. How much of it is gang related and encourages gang actitivty? 3. Why does one feel the need to deface someone elses property? You would probably pretty mad if someone tagged your BMW or SAAB.
    - Subject: Re: Writing in New York, nowadays !
    - Message Number: 761417
    - Posted by: True Train Lover
    - Date: Mon Jan 12 11:00:28 1998
      
      In Reply to: [7]Writing in New York, nowadays ! posted by Pilot on January 01, 1998 at 18:41:39: There is much less grafitti visible than there used to be, because the elected mayor vowed to listen to the majority and institute campaigns to get rid of it immediately. Very few people have ever liked it. There is very little visible nowadays. Your report is 5 years too late. Not to be cruel but.... Perhaps you would prefer to see weird stuff written all over the U-Bahn in Nurnberg, on the walls of the trains both inside and outside, people's names written on the seats, on the station steps and walls, etc. and on the sides of historic row houses all over town. You might not think it so artistic.
      - Subject: Re: Writing in New York, nowadays !
      - Message Number: 761458
      - Posted by: Bootsy
      - Date: Mon Jan 12 11:01:59 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Writing in New York, nowadays ! posted by Pilot on January 01, 1998 at 18:41:39: Oh, you should have been doing this research 10-15-20 years before. You would have had a field day looking and checking out all the tagged subway trains! Most trains were just plain filthy (the trains weren't frequent visitors of the 'Car Wash' -- perhaps the TA wasn't into disco:-) But anyway, many of the trains were covered in layers of filth, grime, and graffiti, but there were also some cars that had very well-done murals done by known graffiti artists, although there weren't that many. Most taggers were just scribbling for kicks. None of it exists today. It took the Transit Authority large amounts of money and a lot of effort, but the finally combatted the "disease" people thought was impossible to cure. NOW the trains visit the Car Wash regularly and keep those minds and machines hummin'!
        
        Subject: Re: Writing in New York, nowadays !
        Message Number: 761726
        Posted by: Squid
        Date: Mon Jan 12 14:13:29 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Writing in New York, nowadays ! posted by Pilot on January 01, 1998 at 18:41:39: Please excuse the late posting from a latecomer to subway fandom, but ... Like Bootsy (apparently) I'm of two minds about subway graffiti. No question, it has degraded cars' surfaces, helping kill cars before their time and diverting resources that could have helped make the system better. Also, most of it, especially nowadays, is ugly and pointless, a bunch of nondescript name scribbles interrupting formerly pleasant-looking surfaces and obscuring signs, window views, etc., all without adding anything aesthetically -- or even trying to. Now that the cars are kept free of painted graffiti, formerly spray-can toting vandals have turned to scratching and scuffing their illegible tags onto surfaces. Memo to said vandals: Do the words "Get a life" mean anything to you? But I do have a few fond memories of those whole-car-length graffiti murals of yesterdecade -- I vaguely remember seeing one heavily painted train enshrined in the opening credits of the "Welcome Back Kotter" TV show (OK, I know you're all familiar with this shot). The people who painted those murals were, I think, as committed to making subway cars look purty, in their own chaotic way, as the folks who brought us the World's Fair blues-- even though the graffiti artists were infinitely more egotistical. But then, what artist isn't? Just my two cents.
        
        Subject: Re: Writing in New York, nowadays !
        Message Number: 761840
        Posted by: Timothy Speer
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:36:14 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Writing in New York, nowadays ! posted by Squid on January 08, 1998 at 20:23:45: Don't forget how "well" subway cars were being cared for in the 1970's and early 1980's -- did deferred maintenance include deferred painting? If it did, then some of the graffiti probably helped preserve some of the cars! Or was the deferred painting a result of a "why bother" response to graffiti? Formerly TKO VI, for all you reformed taggers out there!!!

Thread title: Tales of a student MetroCard and a privacy question. (761404)
Started on Mon Jan 12 10:59:37 1998, by Joshua Caesar

Subject: Tales of a student MetroCard and a privacy question.
Message Number: 761404
Posted by: Joshua Caesar
Date: Mon Jan 12 10:59:37 1998

About two or three weeks ago, I got stopped by a police officer when I entered the subway with my student MetroCard. He looked at me and asked me if I was a student (I am a HS senior with a goatee, he must of thought I was older than I am) I answered yes, and he asked me what school, to which I responded Garden. Since I go to a small private school which not too many people have heard of, the officer looked unconvinced and I was only let to walk away since I produced my school ID for him. The officer had seen a light in the turnstile light up when I used my student MC, and for that reason I have not used my pass for free rides over this vacation, even though I have seen others use them and get away with it. On the bus home today, another student used his card, and the farebox allowed him on the bus. But the driver stopped him and told him he could not use his card due to the holiday. The driver then said something which disturbed me. He said "you are going to lose that pass. There is a code on that card and they are going to track it and take it away from you since you use it when you are not supposed to." The bus operators comment did not sit well with me for a few reasons. During a holiday break, why doesnt the TA turn the cards "off", telling the turnstiles and fareboxes not to accept them? Also, there are no rules or regulations printed on the student MetroCard, like there used to be on a student flash pass. Does anyone have a copy of the Student MetroCard pamphlet that all the students received with their cards? Does it say anything about holiday usage? The third thing that really gets me is the part the bus driver said about the cards being tracked? Does the TA really do this? Does the TA even know whos card is what code? I mean, my schools secretary gave me my MetroCard, and told me to write my name on it. I am not sure she even took the number down, so if my school doesnt know which MetroCard is mine, how would the TA know? I wonder if there will be students who dont receive passes for the next semester because the TA determined that they used their student pass during the holiday break. The whole possibility of the TA tracking my movements through my student MetroCard really upsets me, since, theoretically, the same tracking could be done with a regular MetroCard, but the TA would have no way of knowing the identity of the cards user, but the TA could say, look, Josh Caesar used his student card, here, here, and here. Anyway, sorry about the post turning out so long, HAPPY NEW YEAR to all. Josh Caesar studlyjc@aol.com
- Subject: Re: Tales of a student MetroCard and a privacy question.
- Message Number: 761405
- Posted by: David L.
- Date: Mon Jan 12 10:59:43 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]Tales of a student MetroCard and a privacy question. posted by Joshua Caesar on January 01, 1998 at 20:10:14: A fellow high school student here. One of my theories of the reasons why the MTA doe not turn the Student Metrocards off during holidays is perhaps other private schools may not celebrate such holdidays and have school remain in session. A second theory- certain schools like mine have members of sports teams and relating teams (i.e. football, cheerleading team) come in to school for practice during the vacation. Can anyone confirm this? I have a question as well, what is the penalty for being caught using the Student Metrocard when you are not suppose to?
  - Subject: Re: Tales of a student MetroCard and a privacy question.
  - Message Number: 761406
  - Posted by: Old Goat
  - Date: Mon Jan 12 10:59:47 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Tales of a student MetroCard and a privacy question. posted by Joshua Caesar on January 01, 1998 at 20:10:14: No, the Transit Authority doesn't know which students have the card: only the school authorities know who has it, assuming they're paying attention, as you pointed out. However, it is possible that the T.A. could turn off a Metrocard that they thought was "being abused", but as you point out, if they really thought that use on New Years Day was abuse, they would have told their computers not to let you pass in the first place. Back when I went to school and had a flash pass, I got turned away a few times after hours or midday when I was cutting class and joyriding the buses to pass the time... I presume you wear the goatee to look older, well, guess what, it works! You should have thanked the cop for the compliment, just like the 40 year old woman thanks the bartender when she is asked to show ID...
    - Subject: Re: Tales of a student MetroCard and a privacy question.
    - Message Number: 761409
    - Posted by: Steve
    - Date: Mon Jan 12 10:59:56 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Tales of a student MetroCard and a privacy question. posted by Joshua Caesar on January 01, 1998 at 20:10:14: 2 thoughts about your posting. I used a student transit pass to go to and from High School some 30 years ago. We were only supposed to use it between our home station and the school station. Of course we did use it for other school activities as well. Once in a while we were checked and were told that our passes were not valid at that station because it was not out home station or the school station. I suppose, with the MetroCard computer, it would be possible to limit use to the two stations if the TA saw fit to do so. Why don't you ask the teacher at your school, who is responsible for the passes, what the guide lines are for use of the pass. As for the system itself, let me relate a story I heard just the other day. A Car Inspector was recently fired for mis-use of his Transit Pass. It seems his pass was showing up in the MetroCard computer as being used during the time he was allegedly on duty. They actually developed a pattern of use and intercepted the Car Inspector's girlfriend entering the system. He had given her his pass to use during the day. If they can do it to employees, they can do it to you too. Read "1984" - Big brother is watching !!!!!!!
      - Subject: Re: Tales of a student MetroCard and a privacy question.
      - Message Number: 761430
      - Posted by: Joshua Caesar
      - Date: Mon Jan 12 11:00:56 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Tales of a student MetroCard and a privacy question. posted by David L. on January 01, 1998 at 20:56:27: The theory off other private school not having the day off works for smaller holidays, trust me, up until this year there have been allot of times where I have had to explain to bus drivers and token clerks why I was going to school. But these were all one day holidays where my school stayed in session so we could end the school year slightly earlier, what school really has classes during the Christmas break? I too would like too know what the penalty for misuse is. A Quick response to Steve (another of the posters on this topic): I will check this out with my school's secretary when I go back to school, although I don't think MetroCards seem to be her big concern. And I did read "1984", in fact I did a term paper on it, and that is what scares me. Joshua Caesar studlyjc@aol.com
        
        Subject: Re: Tales of a student MetroCard and a privacy question.
        Message Number: 761434
        Posted by: Peter Rosa
        Date: Mon Jan 12 11:01:06 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Tales of a student MetroCard and a privacy question. posted by Steve on January 01, 1998 at 23:21:45: >As for the system itself, let me relate a story I heard just the other >day. A Car Inspector was recently fired for mis-use of his Transit Pass. >It seems his pass was showing up in the MetroCard computer as being used >during the time he was allegedly on duty. They actually developed a >pattern of use and intercepted the Car Inspector's girlfriend entering >the system. He had given her his pass to use during the day. Now that is one unlucky person! Here he ends up losing a job paying, I'm guessing, maybe $40,000 a year so his girlfriend can save three bucks a day. To make matters worse, she probably ditched him once the money fountain dried up.
        
        Subject: Re: Tales of a student MetroCard and a privacy question.
        Message Number: 761449
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Mon Jan 12 11:01:38 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Tales of a student MetroCard and a privacy question. posted by Peter Rosa on January 02, 1998 at 13:33:37: Not unlucky - just plain stupid !!!!!
        
        Subject: Re: Tales of a student MetroCard and a privacy question.
        Message Number: 761460
        Posted by: Fernando Perez
        Date: Mon Jan 12 11:02:05 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Tales of a student MetroCard and a privacy question. posted by Joshua Caesar on January 02, 1998 at 12:04:47: The best part of the student Metrocard for me as a NYC bus operator is that students can use the pass after 7Pm without me having to say no as in the past flash pass days. I doubt if student passes are tracked because I read in the papers when the passes were implemented that this was a concern of parents. We were issued memos stating to the effect that private schools were to have sessions so not to question pass use. As long as the pass is valid when dipped its fine with me. As far as Steves story, I have also heard of TA employees letting family members use passes and getting caught. We were also issued memos on this at MABSTOA, telling us that Transit police were monitoring use of employee passes and anyone caught doing this would face charges also.

Thread title: SEPTA Map Link (was: Re: Quick Changes - SEPTA's Broad St Subway) (761411)
Started on Mon Jan 12 11:00:00 1998, by Mark S Feinman

Subject: SEPTA Map Link (was: Re: Quick Changes - SEPTA's Broad St Subway)
Message Number: 761411
Posted by: Mark S Feinman
Date: Mon Jan 12 11:00:00 1998

In Reply to: [8]Re: Quick Changes - SEPTA's Broad St Subway posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 31, 1997 at 10:07:44: [9]Here's the link to the SEPTA map. --Mark

Thread title: Re: Rockaway Park Service (761419)
Started on Mon Jan 12 11:00:32 1998, by Carl M. Rabbin

Subject: Re: Rockaway Park Service
Message Number: 761419
Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
Date: Mon Jan 12 11:00:32 1998

In Reply to: [7]Last years reflections from a Subway buff and a glance at the future posted by Philip E. Dominguez on January 01, 1998 at 01:02:07: Why bother with rush hour C service to Rockaway Park? There are already 5 A trains that go to Rockaway Park in rush hour. Replacing them with C trains would just make every express rider (most people) just switch to the C train at Broad Channel anyway? They would probably again only have 5 C trains to Rockaway Park, the rest of the C trains would only go to Euclid, and the S would be the other 7 or eight rush hour trains, just like now. What I think is really unfair is that the Lefferts Blvd. branch gets 15 minute service during non-rush hours. It seems that they should get a shuttle to take up the slack. If I were running things, half the A trains would still go to Far Rockaway, half to Lefferts Blvd. but a shuttle would alternate with regular A trains between Lefferts Blvd. and Euclid Avenue to meet the Far Rockaway A train and give better service to Lefferts Blvd. Then again why give such bad service to the Rockaways? I understand why there is a Rockaway Park shuttle -- to have only one train go on the long section through Broad Channel and save train capacity -- but why have it be so infrequent? It doesn't seem right to me. Perhaps someday all C trains will go to Lefferts Blvd. and all A trains to the Rockaways. Unlikely, I suppose...
- Subject: Re: Rockaway Park Service
- Message Number: 761586
- Posted by: Philip E. Dominguez
- Date: Mon Jan 12 11:08:35 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]Re: Rockaway Park Service posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 02, 1998 at 10:22:35: I guess I would Keep the Rockaway shuttle and have the C train go to Lefferts blvd durring Rush Hours and Midday to replace the A.

Thread title: Broad Street and other 4 track lines (761421)
Started on Mon Jan 12 11:00:36 1998, by Carl M. Rabbin

Subject: Broad Street and other 4 track lines
Message Number: 761421
Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
Date: Mon Jan 12 11:00:36 1998

In Reply to: [7]Re: Quick Changes - SEPTA's Broad St Subway posted by Andrew Byler on January 01, 1998 at 17:19:05: Very nice description, extremely detailed and really explains why locals end at Erie so easily and why they can't at Walnut-Locust. I appreciate someone articulating better what I was originally thinking. It's also really interesting that only one side of Broad Street was torn up in South Philadelphia. I guess that was smart thinking when they built it. One tiny detail about 4-track lines in the US: In Chicago the El section between Belmont and Fullerton (actually Armitage) is a four-track express line. But the local is the Ravenswood (Brown), and the express is the Howard-Dan Ryan (Red) line. In London they have the same 4-track configuration between Baker St. and Wembley Park: the express is the Metropolitan Line, the local the Jubilee Line. And of course the Subway-Surface cars between 30th and 15th in Philadelphia are the locals in a four-track configuration with the Market St. Subway, which is the express that skips 19th and 22nd Streets. Same track width (wide gauge), different platform height and electricity (3rd rail vs. overhead trolley pole). The Broad Street system uses standard gauge track. [This is for those who are unfamiliar with Philadelphia's system.] And I realize that these 3 other "express" runs are quite limited in scope, not like the Broad Street Subway which has express track for about 8 miles.
- Subject: Re: Broad Street and other 4 track lines
- Message Number: 761423
- Posted by: John B. Bredin
- Date: Mon Jan 12 11:00:40 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Broad Street and other 4 track lines posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 02, 1998 at 10:38:58: As to the four-track segment of the Chicago L, it actually extends from just south of Armitage station all the way north to Howard Street, the northern city limits. You are correct that the Brown is a local train and makes all stops between where it merges into the main line north of Belmont and the downtown Loop, while the Red stops only at Belmont and Fullerton on that stretch of line before going underground at the portal just south of the Armitage station. But the Evanston (Purple) and the Red run on four tracks from Howard, the terminal of the Red line, all the way to the Armitage portal. The Purple is a rush-hour-only express that runs local through Evanston, then stops at Howard, then skips on the outer tracks the many inner-track Red Line stops between Howard and Belmont, then stops at the local stations of the L south of Belmont into the Loop.
  - Subject: Re: Broad Street and other 4 track lines
  - Message Number: 761436
  - Posted by: Andrew Byler
  - Date: Mon Jan 12 11:01:10 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Broad Street and other 4 track lines posted by John B. Bredin on January 02, 1998 at 11:18:46: My mistake in forgetting Chicago's north side line. I included the disclaimer about lines in the US to exclude the London Tube. I believe the District Line and Picadilly are also on a four track line west of London center (the Picadilly is express). Andy Byler
    - Subject: Re: Broad Street and other 4 track lines
    - Message Number: 761467
    - Posted by: FRED WELLMAN
    - Date: Mon Jan 12 11:02:26 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: Broad Street and other 4 track lines posted by Andrew Byler on January 02, 1998 at 14:52:37: The MBTA's Orange line is 4 tracked on its north end. I dno't know if they use them but they do exist.

Thread title: Bronx,Manhattan,Brooklyn+Long Island (761425)
Started on Mon Jan 12 11:00:44 1998, by Christopher Rivera

Subject: Bronx,Manhattan,Brooklyn+Long Island
Message Number: 761425
Posted by: Christopher Rivera
Date: Mon Jan 12 11:00:44 1998

The D and B lines go on one of the most important lines in the city. From those 2 lines you get into all of the 4 broughs of the transit system. And connect you to the LIRR, NJ Transit, Metro North and Amtrak. Plus it goes under one of the most important bridges in the City. Now what my Question is what will happen when the Manhattan Bridge Collapes? I think the 63 street tunnel is going to be used for that situation . Now correct me if I am wrong all track are connect to make the system then why did the MTA terminate the D train at 34 street and the B train at 36 Street. They just could have rerouted the trains on to the N and R tracks. Come on! Now if the Bridge did collapes they cant terminate the D train at 34 street and the B at 36 strret. Does anyone have any other reroutes?????
- Subject: Re: Bronx,Manhattan,Brooklyn+Long Island
- Message Number: 761446
- Posted by: Wayne Johnson
- Date: Mon Jan 12 11:01:29 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Bronx,Manhattan,Brooklyn+Long Island posted by Christopher Rivera on January 02, 1998 at 11:34:40: You confused me a bit with the 63rd street tunnel reference, but I can address the your other question re: Terminal points When the Manhattan Bridge was closed trains from Washington Hghts (B) and Concourse (D) had no other way to get to their respective lines in Brooklyn which is why they terminated at 34th street. The B and D trains coming from Brooklyn did use the south tracks on the Manhattan and operated in Manhattan via the Broadway BMT (N & R) line, but trains routed to the line have no access to the 6th or 8th ave line tracks. They can only go as far north as 57thst/7th ave and then through the 63rd st tunnel to Queens. Hopefully the Manhattan Bridge won't collapse, but if it does the 63rd street is not an alternate route.

Thread title: "Condos" (761427)
Started on Mon Jan 12 11:00:48 1998, by John

Subject: "Condos"
Message Number: 761427
Posted by: John
Date: Mon Jan 12 11:00:48 1998

What do they mean when they talk about the "Condos" under Grand Central? Anyone know anything about track 100 on the east side od the station?
- Subject: Re: "Condos"
- Message Number: 761429
- Posted by: Peter Rosa
- Date: Mon Jan 12 11:00:53 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]"Condos" posted by John on January 02, 1998 at 11:42:04: If you're asking these questions based on reading the book _The Mole People_ by Jennifer Toth, please see this Web site: http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/rails/mole-people.html You'll have an entirely different perspective on the book after reading this!

Thread title: Maps (761428)
Started on Mon Jan 12 11:00:51 1998, by Robert

Subject: Maps
Message Number: 761428
Posted by: Robert
Date: Mon Jan 12 11:00:51 1998

Anyone know where I can get a detailed layout of Grand Central Terminal with all levels on the internet? If so, please post it.

Thread title: SEPTA's Broad St Subway: What's Wrong with the City Hall Station, Anyway? (761441)
Started on Mon Jan 12 11:01:20 1998, by Carl M. Rabbin

Subject: SEPTA's Broad St Subway: What's Wrong with the City Hall Station, Anyway?
Message Number: 761441
Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
Date: Mon Jan 12 11:01:20 1998

In Reply to: [7]Re: Quick Changes - SEPTA's Broad St Subway posted by smitty on January 02, 1998 at 11:36:44: Yes. It seems narrower and more confused than usual lately, even though I know that is not possible. (To explain to the others: City Hall has a wall between each express and local track, with breaks every 8 feet or so. It is otherwise just a pair of island platforms. At each wall section there is a narrow staircase leading up to other platforms and the street. Each one is numbered and each goes supposedly somewhere else, sort of. There are alway people walking along these narrow half-platforms to get to the desired narrow staircase.) It was the first Broad St. station to get fluorescent lights back around 1966. Compared to the other stations it looked great then. Now, either it is not being maintained properly or the crowds have gotten so much bigger recently that the station seems hard to maneuver and like it's falling apart because it is so crowded and cluttered. Personally, I think it's the larger crowds making it look confusing and hard to maneuver. My guesses as to why they put up the walls in the first place are 1) to hold up the platforms above, the streets and the edge of City Hall, 2) to prevent people from going from express to local and vice versa at this station but to wait for the next one. If it's the second one, it's like NYC's two Penn Station subway stops, with a center island for expresses and to side platforms for locals. If you want to change between express and local, you will do it at 42 St instead, and not further confuse the crowds at those popular stations. Note that it was done for both an IRT and an IND station, but not at the other two 34th St express stations, so that is probably the reason. They wouldn't do it at Grand Central because there is no adjacent express station, the two adjacents being 33 and 51.

Thread title: Street Sign Colors (761442)
Started on Mon Jan 12 11:01:22 1998, by Carl M. Rabbin

Subject: Street Sign Colors
Message Number: 761442
Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
Date: Mon Jan 12 11:01:22 1998

In Reply to: [7]Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names (dual names) posted by Mark Oring on January 02, 1998 at 13:46:42: True, it used to be you could tell when you had crossed from Brooklyn to Queens on ordinary streets, and vice versa. Now it can't be that easy to tell. And you knew for sure that Marble Hill was in New York County, not Bronx County.
- Subject: Re: Street Sign Colors
- Message Number: 761452
- Posted by: Eric B
- Date: Mon Jan 12 11:01:44 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]Street Sign Colors posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 02, 1998 at 15:41:56: I never liked the changing of the street sign colors, exept for Staten Island. Since its yellow & black was already used in Manhattan, and the green wasn't used anywhere, I had always said SI should be green. I was always told the green was chosen because it was standard, buit there are places like LA that use blue. I was also told it was more visible to the drivers, but the blue is very similar to the green. But this was Koch's wish. I wish they would change them back, (except SI), with some modifications-- The ugly black on yellow would be replaced by white on gold (like the "Y" token of "NYC Subway org " on the top of this page (I also have suggested doing the same for the Broadway subway N &R, on maps and signs, replacing a similar black on yellow scheme). Or, also nice is the new bright lemon yellow appearing on school crossings signs. For Brooklyn, addressing the visibility at night issue, how about white on brown (like LI state park signs), or white on purple (like the original EZ pass signs, which have been replaced by pink). Also, midtown special signs could use a stop sign red (rather than the brick red of historical district signs) This had been used before such as "Fire Prevention Square" in Times Sq. (I believe it has been removed)

Thread title: El Paso Streetcar Abandonment Date(s) (761448)
Started on Mon Jan 12 11:01:36 1998, by Alan Follett

Subject: El Paso Streetcar Abandonment Date(s)
Message Number: 761448
Posted by: Alan Follett
Date: Mon Jan 12 11:01:36 1998

In connection with a current thread on bit.listserv.railroad--Can anyone out there provide the following dates for the street railway system in El Paso, Texas, and Ciudad Juarez, Mexico, whose cross-border service using pre-war PCCs lasted into the late 1960's? 1. Date of last rail operation on the U.S. side. 2. Date of last rail operation on the Mexican side. (I believe this was several years after the El Paso end was suspended.) 3. Date of formal abandonment. (It's my recollection that this occurred substantially later than the end of actual operations--perhaps well into the 1970's.) I know West Texas is a bit remote from Times Square; but thanks in advance for any information anyone on Subtalk can provide!
- Subject: Re: El Paso Streetcar Abandonment Date(s)
- Message Number: 761451
- Posted by: Dan Schwartz
- Date: Mon Jan 12 11:01:42 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]El Paso Streetcar Abandonment Date(s) posted by Alan Follett on January 02, 1998 at 18:04:28: > I know West Texas is a bit remote from Times Square; but thanks in > advance for any information anyone on Subtalk can provide! It surely is! When I was a kid, I used to wonder about the signs on the D train that read "6th Ave-Houston". This was on the old R-1/9 cars, and of course I know now that it was talking about Houston (How-ston) Street in Manhattan, not the city of Houston (Hew-ston), Texas. Back then I wondered (at about age 8) if the subway somehow could take you to Texas. But even Houston, TX is not as far as El Paso. Anyway, I'm wondering how the border crossing was handled on a streetcar. Were they a lot more informal about such things back then? I guess they must have been, but still I'm sure there were some controls. Did customs people board the streetcar at the border to check ID? Did they make everyone get off for inspection, then let them back on when they were cleared? What would happen to someone who didn't have the right documents?
  - Subject: Re: El Paso Streetcar Abandonment Date(s)
  - Message Number: 761454
  - Posted by: David Pirmann
  - Date: Mon Jan 12 11:01:49 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]El Paso Streetcar Abandonment Date(s) posted by Alan Follett on January 02, 1998 at 18:04:28: > I know West Texas is a bit remote from Times Square Not really! I've got pictures of the El Paso streetcars on the site! Check out [9]http://www.nycsubway.org/pcc/elpaso.html. --Dave
    - Subject: Re: El Paso Streetcar Abandonment Date(s)
    - Message Number: 761480
    - Posted by: Alan Follett
    - Date: Mon Jan 12 11:03:25 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: El Paso Streetcar Abandonment Date(s) posted by David Pirmann on January 02, 1998 at 21:23:14:
      - Subject: Re: El Paso Streetcar Abandonment Date(s)
      - Message Number: 761481
      - Posted by: Alan Follett
      - Date: Mon Jan 12 11:03:27 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: El Paso Streetcar Abandonment Date(s) posted by David Pirmann on January 02, 1998 at 21:23:14: Thanks for pointing out the El Paso City Lines photo site--if I ever knew that it was there, I had forgotten. BTW, it appears that the answer to my question is that the international loop last operated in 1973, and the last operation of any kind was in 1974, though the line was still in place and theoretically might have been reopened at least as late as 1977. I've posted a followup question on bit.listserv.railroad, where the topic originally came up, about the customs and immigration arrangements on this service, and will forward to SubTalk if anything interesting turns up. It's my impression from a visit to El Paso in 1993 that the arrangements are pretty expeditious even today; thousands of people a day cross the bridges for employment or shopping. El Paso and Juarez are, to a large extent, a single economic community.
        
        Subject: Re: El Paso Streetcar Abandonment Date(s)
        Message Number: 761505
        Posted by: Alan Follett
        Date: Mon Jan 12 11:04:24 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: El Paso Streetcar Abandonment Date(s) posted by Dan Schwartz on January 02, 1998 at 19:34:06: Lee Yoder and Neil Carlson were kind enough to respond to my inquiry on bit.listserv.railroad about how the customs and immigration formalities were handled on El Paso City Lines' international trolley loop. I'm posting this to summarize their reports. EPCL's ex-San Diego PCCs were modified with bench-type seats with no space under them for packages. Going into Mexico, the delays were minimal. A Mexican customs or immigration inspector walked through the car, occasionally glancing at someone or something. In those days before NAFTA, I believe the concern on the Mexican side would mostly have been smuggling of consumer electronics, which were subject to heavy import duties. Coming into the U.S., things were more complicated. The arrangement was basically that used on the current international bus routes. Once across the bridge, the cars pulled up to the entrance end of the inspection shed, the same one used for pedestrians. Passengers were unloaded, taking everything with them, and walked through the inspection area. While this was going on, a U.S. customs or immigration inspector walked through the car to make sure that no one and nothing remained on board (other than, obviously, the motorman). The car then proceeded to the exit end of the shed, where passengers reboarded upon presentation of proof of payment. The question I forgot to ask: did EPCL accept fares in both U.S. dollars and Mexican pesos? I imagine they must have; under Mexican law, all prices (including, I suppose, transit fares) must be posted in pesos, though in the border towns U.S. currency is widely accepted and maybe even preferred (the poor old peso hasn't exactly been a pillar of stability in recent years!)

Thread title: Theft of Services (on PATH) (761453)
Started on Mon Jan 12 11:01:46 1998, by Joshua Caesar

Subject: Theft of Services (on PATH)
Message Number: 761453
Posted by: Joshua Caesar
Date: Mon Jan 12 11:01:46 1998

In Reply to: [8]Re: Theft of Services posted by Steve on December 29, 1997 at 00:17:39: What about on the PATH system? I would imagine that harsher punishments would be needed to deter fare-beating on PATH since there are no regular employees in the stations, unlike the subway, which has all of the token clerks. Joshua Caesar studlyjc@aol.com
- Subject: Re: Theft of Services (on PATH)
- Message Number: 761605
- Posted by: Jason R. DeCesare
- Date: Mon Jan 12 14:07:33 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Theft of Services (on PATH) posted by Joshua Caesar on January 02, 1998 at 20:00:57: Reminds me of a little story: One day I was at a PATH turnstile at Hoboken and inserted a Susan B. Anthony dollar (aka PATH token). The coin didn't register, so I pushed the coin return button and got two SBA dollars. This also happened in Newark and at the WTC to me. It is sort of like the turnstiles are slot machines. -Jason
  - Subject: Re: Theft of Services (on PATH)
  - Message Number: 761614
  - Posted by: Charles Fiori
  - Date: Mon Jan 12 14:07:49 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: Theft of Services (on PATH) posted by Jason R. DeCesare on January 06, 1998 at 00:39:56: Jason--the trick is to do that after someone has tried an SBA, which did not work, and then did not hit the coin return. What a country!!!

Thread title: Bridges used by subways (was :Re: Manhattan Bridge Millenium Catastrophe (761455)
Started on Mon Jan 12 11:01:52 1998, by subway-buff

Subject: Bridges used by subways (was :Re: Manhattan Bridge Millenium Catastrophe
Message Number: 761455
Posted by: subway-buff
Date: Mon Jan 12 11:01:52 1998

In Reply to: [8]Re: Manhattan Bridge Millenium Catastrophe posted by John B. Bredin on January 02, 1998 at 16:13:47: In addition to these two tranis also use the Broadway bridge (1/9), Roosevelt ave Queens after Shea stadium- rail bridge over street bridge over a freeway trype bridge. There are probably others that I cant think of right now.
- Subject: Re: Bridges used by subways (was :Re: Manhattan Bridge Millenium Catastrophe
- Message Number: 761459
- Posted by: Bootsy
- Date: Mon Jan 12 11:02:02 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]Bridges used by subways (was :Re: Manhattan Bridge Millenium Catastrophe posted by subway-buff on January 02, 1998 at 21:30:26: The Williamsburg Bridge is used by the Jamiaca Line (J-Z-M)

Thread title: 6av watermain break and the PATH trains (761456)
Started on Mon Jan 12 11:01:55 1998, by subway-buff

Subject: 6av watermain break and the PATH trains
Message Number: 761456
Posted by: subway-buff
Date: Mon Jan 12 11:01:55 1998

I udnerstand that the F trains run outside of the PATH 6 av tracks- *like* a local track (if there would be no wall). My question- How come it took till 6pm to get the PATH back on line when the subway was running in the morning- are the PATH tracks deeper or some other reason they stayed out of service longer. 33 rd street- is the PATH track level the same level as the 6 av IND/BMT- or are one or more of these different depths.I looked in brakeman's book but it does not show depth.
- Subject: Re: 6av watermain break and the PATH trains
- Message Number: 761457
- Posted by: Bootsy
- Date: Mon Jan 12 11:01:57 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]6av watermain break and the PATH trains posted by subway-buff on January 02, 1998 at 21:35:00: I think the PATH tracks are lower than the 6th Avenue Local tracks (F train). I also think that the express tracks are at a lower level (could be wrong on that, but I think that's the case).
  - Subject: Re: 6av watermain break and the PATH trains
  - Message Number: 761464
  - Posted by: Andrew Huie
  - Date: Mon Jan 12 11:02:14 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]6av watermain break and the PATH trains posted by subway-buff on January 02, 1998 at 21:35:00: At 33rd Street the PATH trains are a couple of levels higher than the 6th Ave lines. Beyond that I *think* they're about the same level, sandwiched between the 6th Ave local tracks, with the 6th Ave express a couple of levels below.
    - Subject: Re: 6av watermain break and the PATH trains
    - Message Number: 761476
    - Posted by: Peter Rosa
    - Date: Mon Jan 12 11:03:14 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]6av watermain break and the PATH trains posted by subway-buff on January 02, 1998 at 21:35:00: The really remarkable thing about the water main break was what I noticed walking up 6th Avenue to Penn Station on Friday afternoon. 18th and 19th Streets were blocked off at the 6th Avenue end, with sawhorses and yellow tape across the entrances. Now, there were four uniformed police officers at 18th and three at 19th. But why?? Surely one cop could have handled those duties. Come to think of it, one of those traffic agent probably could have done it. There was absolutely no reason to have four well-paid police officers doing something like that. Talk about a culture of waste ...
      - Subject: Re: 6av watermain break and the PATH trains
      - Message Number: 761804
      - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
      - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:34:45 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: 6av watermain break and the PATH trains posted by Bootsy on January 02, 1998 at 22:25:08: Correct; the express tracks were rock-tunneled into place in 1964 at a level several hundred feet below street level at 23rd st. I rode down in the muck bucket to inspect the work in those pre-OSHA days, not to mention slogging around waist deep in slop wearing hip waders, and dodging diesel powered front end loaders in the semi-dark smokey haze. An interesting side story; room was tunneled out for stations at 14th and 23rd street on the Express line, which would have been ridiculous to build, but the local businesses insisted on keeping the option open. Are the resulting "caverns" visible from the express trains?
        
        Subject: Re: 6av watermain break and the PATH trains
        Message Number: 761859
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:37:11 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: 6av watermain break and the PATH trains posted by Gary Jacobi on January 09, 1998 at 12:32:47: Wow! You'd never know that by looking into the tunnel. Looks like a typical tunnel to me between W 4 and 34th St. No huge caverns. --Mark

Thread title: 98 for the Department of buses (761461)
Started on Mon Jan 12 11:02:08 1998, by Fernando Perez

Subject: 98 for the Department of buses
Message Number: 761461
Posted by: Fernando Perez
Date: Mon Jan 12 11:02:08 1998

Happy New Years to all my fellow Subtalkees! Here are some things lined up for 1998 in NYC buses. West side depot aka Greyhound is going to be unveiled in March and will hold 280 buses. 100St and Walnut will be closed and there will be a major shuffle in lines and depot assignments. 120 MCI over the roads will be delivered this year and 60 more next year.They will be 45 feet long have 17 more seats and will have reading lights, luggage racks and reclining seats. 10 hybrids built by ORION will be delivered also.700 standard buses will also be delivered through 1999. 40 more articulates will be delivered to be operating out of Gun Hill depot. Also cracks have been detected on 1993 Orions above the left rear wheel wells as well as bus frames. But its not all bad. At 207 St shop they are being repaired by welding in new braces and by the end of 1998 all 498 Orions will be completed and checked for these cracks.
- Subject: Re: 98 for the Department of buses
- Message Number: 761469
- Posted by: Jeff From Flatbush
- Date: Mon Jan 12 11:02:34 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]98 for the Department of buses posted by Fernando Perez on January 02, 1998 at 23:42:57: Couple of Questions: Are those MCIs like the one's the New York Bus Service uses and will they be used on regular routes or just express? Which buses are being replaced by the new ones being purchased? ('81-'83 need to be put out of their misery)
  - Subject: Re: 98 for the Department of buses
  - Message Number: 761499
  - Posted by: Fernando Perez
  - Date: Mon Jan 12 11:04:07 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: 98 for the Department of buses posted by Jeff From Flatbush on January 03, 1998 at 13:03:14: I haven't seen what the new buses look like but they will be used primarily for express service from Staten Island to Manhattan. They will probably retire or send the early 80's buses to other depots for intermodel service.
    - Subject: Re: 98 for the Department of buses
    - Message Number: 761640
    - Posted by: Wayne Johnson
    - Date: Mon Jan 12 14:09:28 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: 98 for the Department of buses posted by Fernando Perez on January 03, 1998 at 23:48:57: I'm pretty sure the MCI over the road coaches the Frenando referred to are like those you see many Charter and Tour companies using. In the NYC area you'll see 45 foot MCI operating at Academy, Peter Pan, Suburban, Bonanza, Harran, Classic and others just to name a few. The model is 102DL3. The majority of MCI over the road coaches are 40 ft models which have several models which range from 96A2 up to 102C3. The New York Bus Service MCI's are suburban coaches. They are called "Classic" and MCI sold the Classic line as well as the RTS line to Nova BUS of Canada. If you need an explanation/description of these various models let me know and I'll post it.

Thread title: Re: SEPTA's Broad St Subway: What's Wrong with the City Hall Station, (761462)
Started on Mon Jan 12 11:02:11 1998, by .

Subject: Re: SEPTA's Broad St Subway: What's Wrong with the City Hall Station,
Message Number: 761462
Posted by: .
Date: Mon Jan 12 11:02:11 1998
- Subject: Re: SEPTA's Broad St Subway: What's Wrong with the City Hall Station,
- Message Number: 761484
- Posted by: .
- Date: Mon Jan 12 11:03:34 1998
  - Subject: Re: SEPTA's Broad St Subway: What's Wrong with the City Hall Station,
  - Message Number: 761522
  - Posted by: .
  - Date: Mon Jan 12 11:05:11 1998
    - Subject: Re: SEPTA's Broad St Subway: What's Wrong with the City Hall Station,
    - Message Number: 761562
    - Posted by: .
    - Date: Mon Jan 12 11:07:00 1998
      - Subject: Re: SEPTA's Broad St Subway: What's Wrong with the City Hall Station,
      - Message Number: 761663
      - Posted by: .
      - Date: Mon Jan 12 14:11:03 1998
        
        Subject: Re: SEPTA's Broad St Subway: What's Wrong with the City Hall Station,
        Message Number: 761687
        Posted by: .
        Date: Mon Jan 12 14:12:11 1998
        
        Subject: Re: SEPTA's Broad St Subway: What's Wrong with the City Hall Station,
        Message Number: 761727
        Posted by: .
        Date: Mon Jan 12 14:13:34 1998
        
        Subject: Re: SEPTA's Broad St Subway: What's Wrong with the City Hall Station,
        Message Number: 761805
        Posted by: .
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:34:48 1998
        
        Subject: Re: SEPTA's Broad St Subway: What's Wrong with the City Hall Station,
        Message Number: 761894
        Posted by: .
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:38:40 1998

Thread title: More on street sign colors (to Mark Oring) (761466)
Started on Mon Jan 12 11:02:22 1998, by Timothy Speer

Subject: More on street sign colors (to Mark Oring)
Message Number: 761466
Posted by: Timothy Speer
Date: Mon Jan 12 11:02:22 1998

In Reply to: [8]Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names (dual names) posted by Mark Oring on January 02, 1998 at 13:46:42: I must disagree with you, Mark. I have sitting in front of me an authentic early seventies vintage street sign from Queens (I won't tell you how I got it!!!), and I can see why you think it's cream or tan. The signs get dirty! The signs have a reflective paint which has a strange coloring, but I checked with my cousin, who is a professional artist, and he agrees with me that it is appropriate to call the background white. At the very edge is the part of the sign that was protected from the elements, and it is unquestionably white. If anything, they look to me like they have a very slight green cast from the dirt. Perhaps the dirt color depends which part of Queens the sign is from! Mine is from Ridgewood.

Thread title: Universal Accessability & the Surplus (761468)
Started on Mon Jan 12 11:02:29 1998, by Jim Davis

Subject: Universal Accessability & the Surplus
Message Number: 761468
Posted by: Jim Davis
Date: Mon Jan 12 11:02:29 1998

Most of the subway system is not accessable to people with mobility disabiloities who cannot use stairs. This is a violation of those peoples' human rights. The very weak Americans With Disabilities Act has allowed the MTA to weasel through with not access for all-- but a "Plan"--according to which--- even 15 years from now-- the entire system will not be universally accessable. The excuse for the slowness was financial hardship. Now that the surplus eliminates that excuse-- the "Plan" must be revised to speed it up. Did you hear even one politician talking about that? Did you hear even one media reporter talking about that? (WBAI-FM covered it on a Friday morning show-- because I pushed them to do it.) It may be time for an A.D.A. lawsuit against the MTA-- to revise the trimetable for access, in the light of their newfound wealth. Are there any lawyers or public-interest law firms out there, that would be willing to work on such a suit?
- Subject: Re: Universal Accessability & the Surplus
- Message Number: 761474
- Posted by: John B. Bredin
- Date: Mon Jan 12 11:03:07 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Universal Accessability & the Surplus posted by Jim Davis on January 03, 1998 at 12:03:02: Just one point of clarification -- the ADA does not require "the entire system" to be "universally accessable". It only mandates that key stations of commuter railways and rapid transit systems be accessible, NOT every station. Not living in New York, I don't know how many stations are accessible, and an ADA lawsuit against the MTA may (or may not) be appropriate. I just want to make it clear that the result of such a suit would probably not be a system with every station fully accessible.
  - Subject: Re: Universal Accessability & the Surplus
  - Message Number: 761487
  - Posted by: Nick
  - Date: Mon Jan 12 11:03:39 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Universal Accessability & the Surplus posted by John B. Bredin on January 03, 1998 at 16:12:37: It will take awhile before all the stations are brought up to code...since there are 468 of them. But all new trains (R-110s) are handicap excessible (wider doors) and the R-142s and R-143's that are hopefully being delivered next year should be the same as well. By the way, I noticed your name....are you the cartoonist of the Garfield comic strip?-Nick
    - Subject: Re: Universal Accessability & the Surplus
    - Message Number: 761496
    - Posted by: Adam
    - Date: Mon Jan 12 11:04:01 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: Universal Accessability & the Surplus posted by John B. Bredin on January 03, 1998 at 16:12:37: While it would be nice in an ideal world to make every station handicapped-accessible, it is virtually impossible in terms of money and feasibility. What I feel the MTA should do, instead, is to make major stations like 42nd Street, 34th Street, 14th Street, DeKalb Ave., Stillwell Ave., Parsons/Archer, Roosevelt Ave., Lexington Ave/59th Street, and all of the other terminal stations that are strategically located in each borough handicapped-accessible. Then, if the handicapped people live more than a certain distance from the handicapped-equipped station, the MTA should provide free paratransit in a special van or bus from these people's homes to the nearest handicapped-accessible station and charge them a half-fare. Then, the handicapped people can take the train to the station with an elevator that is nearest to their destination, and if their destination is further than a certain distance from the station, free transportation can be provided from there. I feel this would alleviate the problem of equipping each and every station with an elevator, a very costly venture, indeed. It would also comply with the ADA in a roundabout way that I think would satisfy all.
      - Subject: Re: Universal Accessability & the Surplus
      - Message Number: 761508
      - Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
      - Date: Mon Jan 12 11:04:32 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Universal Accessability & the Surplus posted by Jim Davis on January 03, 1998 at 12:03:02: >Most of the subway system is not accessable to people with mobility >disabiloities who cannot use stairs. >This is a violation of those peoples' human rights. Oh give me a break!!! - There's always the bus, etc. I would say that it sucks, sure, but it's not a "violation of their human rights" >The very weak Americans With Disabilities Act Weak??? What planet are you living on??? Under ADA, being fat practically counts as a dissability. Heck, just about ANYTHING can be considered a dissability under ADA. >The excuse for the slowness was financial hardship. How about: 400+ subway stations, hundreds of commuter ones, the fact that engineering and construction takes time, because almost every situation is unique... > Now that the surplus >eliminates that excuse-- the "Plan" must be revised to speed it up. Ummm.... 100 million won't even begin to cover the costs of elevators, etc everwhere. I'm sure an elevator alone costs 1 million. Nevermind installation. Also, why must YOUR special cause, above all others, be the sole use of the money?? The fact is, newer equipment, infestructure upgrades, station improvements, etc, benifit ALL of the subway rideing public. >Did you hear even one politician talking about that? >Did you hear even one media reporter talking about that? (WBAI-FM >covered it on a Friday morning show-- because I pushed them to do it.) Maybe the Handicapped (dissabled,special,whatever today's PC term is) don't think it's a big issue. >It may be time for an A.D.A. lawsuit against the MTA-- to revise the >trimetable for access, in the light of their newfound wealth. Oh yeah, lawsuits solve EVERYTHING. Ever wonder why a step ladder is so expensive?? 1/3 the cost covers lawsuits. Suing the MTA will do nothing but cost everyone money, slow down the process more, and do nothing to improve acess to stations. >Are there any lawyers or public-interest law firms out there, that would >be willing to work on such a suit? I'm sure there are plenty of "public interest" lawyers out there. Given this countries' class-action mania, somebody out there is bound to take this one up. Ammusing Aside: Last year, I got a "refund" of 13 dollars for my (rather old) computer monitor. Why??? Because the box said 14" monitor, but in the manual pointed out the actual veiwable area is closer to 13.75". So because I wasn't told so on the box, I get money back, because I was "misled" into thinking it was a 14" monitor. Nevermind the fact that I knew about this, and would have read about it in the manual anyway...
        
        Subject: Re: Universal Accessability & the Surplus
        Message Number: 761518
        Posted by: Droo
        Date: Mon Jan 12 11:04:58 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Universal Accessability & the Surplus posted by Nick on January 03, 1998 at 19:42:04: Also, the narrow width of many of the older stations probably would make it prohibitively costly to install elevators on all the platforms; I don't think all of the stations can reasonably be expected to have elevators at any time in the future.
        
        Subject: Re: Universal Accessability & the Surplus
        Message Number: 761526
        Posted by: Joe M
        Date: Mon Jan 12 11:05:22 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Universal Accessability & the Surplus posted by Nick on January 03, 1998 at 19:42:04: Does Garfield need to be in a box to ride the Subway? Paralel bus service that is acessible is usually OK till the stations are acceptable and most non-militant people prefer to use paratransit... It's easier to use. Paratransit is less expensive on the capital side but more expensive on the operating side.
        
        Subject: Re: Universal Accessability & the Surplus
        Message Number: 761561
        Posted by: Semi-Southern Subway Rider
        Date: Mon Jan 12 11:06:58 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Universal Accessability & the Surplus posted by Joe M on January 04, 1998 at 20:26:46: Thank you for a reasonable answer to the shrill sounding (but in a sense reasonable) complaint that started this. Paratransit or even taxis are a certainly a better answer than elevators all over the place on the subways. Do you think someone in a wheelchair or with someone with Cerebral Palsy on crutches who walks very, very slowly wants to get on a Lexington Avenue express at (for example) Grand Central at 5:02 PM or at (again, for example) Fordham or Bedford Park Blvd. when Bronx HS of Science lets out? I would sooner give them vouchers for 5 taxis a day than have them face the difficulties of a crowded subway train if one is not easily mobile or able to endure constantly shifting crowds. In Washington where I live, we have elevators at every station, and many wheelchair users use them, but our platforms are 2 or 3 times as wide as a NYC platform, they are tilted away from the tracks, our trains don't get as crowded, we don't have maze-like tunnels between lines, since the system was designed as a single system, not 3 separate systems, and most stations have a single island platform, requiring only 2 elevators, one to the mezzanine, one to the street. A transfer station with side platforms at one level has 5 elevators. And this is with a system carefully designed to be accessible. And from my fairly good experience on the DC Metro, most elevator users have bicycles or strollers, or just want to avoid extremely long and slow escalators, slow being a result of fears of lawsuits. In fact, most accidents that have occurred on the escalators were because they are so slow and people get inattentive riding them. London has a similar system of deep stations but the escalators are short (one may take 2 or 3 mid-length ones to change levels) and quick, and no matter how crowded they are, they seem safe. Taking a nearly 100-year old system with only 6-foot-wide platforms and even 3-ft in some places and mazes of tunnels and stairways throughout, and putting in thousands of barely used (and possibly dangerous or used by some as a restroom) elevators will bankrupt us all. And you can't claim they are ONLY for those in need by some group's definition. Who decides that my fear of heights or my wife's inability to see in 3 dimensions because of vision difficulties or my daughter's shortness and fear of trampling in crowds doesn't qualify her to use the elevator? DC tried to limit the elevators and within 3 months made them available to all. There has not been huge overcrowding of them because of that, either. On any day in fact an average of 3 are broken in the system and some unlucky bus driver has to shuttle a person or two to the next station all day long. Before some of you turn purple with rage, I am not against the elevators and accessible platforms in cities where they can be built well, as in Washington and Baltimore, with the system when it is initially built or where there is space to put them in in a useful way. But as far as New York's subway system goes: 1) it is unbelieveably difficult to use by people with mobility difficulties in so many ways other than just entranc stairways, 2) there is no way to put in enough elevators to parallel every stairway in the 468 stations, and 3) there is no physical way to get them in there anyway. Paratransit and taxi vouchers are probably the smartest idea anyone ever came up with, as far as I'm concerned. If everybody had exactly what they wanted, there would be a station in front of my house and it would run express to where I want to go, since my knees are really weak. And when I visit NYC, no one would start at one end of the train with a paper cup and demand money from everyone, scaring the heck out of my children. And the seats would not be made of hard plastic inflaming my uncle's hemorrhoids. And they'd make the straps lower so my fully grown 4'11" daughter could reach them. And they'd make the ads lower so my wife could read them. And they wouldn't sell candy in the NY subway because I am a diabetic and it inflames my feelings of isolation from the rest of the population. Etc, etc... Sorry but I felt a strong initial complaint could tolerate a strong response.
        
        Subject: Re: Universal Accessability & the Surplus
        Message Number: 761574
        Posted by: Dan Lawrence
        Date: Mon Jan 12 11:07:41 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Universal Accessability & the Surplus posted by Semi-Southern Subway Rider on January 05, 1998 at 15:21:58: In Baltimore, the Metro (MTAspeak for subway) has had unrestricted use elevators since Day 1. The MTA reasoned that since the elevators were built with public money, the public should be allowed to use them. No people problems have ever been recorded with elevators since the beginning.
        
        Subject: Re: Universal Accessability & the Surplus
        Message Number: 761596
        Posted by: Joe - M
        Date: Mon Jan 12 11:08:58 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Universal Accessability & the Surplus posted by Dan Lawrence on January 05, 1998 at 18:03:59: How are maintenance costs for the elevators? I have heard that vandalism can be quite a problem in trying to keep them operational. Can ramps be an alternative where the difference in grades in not excessive, such as a commuter station?
        
        Subject: Re: Universal Accessability & the Surplus
        Message Number: 761602
        Posted by: Dan Lawrence
        Date: Mon Jan 12 14:07:27 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Universal Accessability & the Surplus posted by Joe - M on January 05, 1998 at 23:46:01: Vandlism at MTA stations is almost unheard of (there are MTA cops around at all times (and ours are full Maryland Police Officers!) and vandals are dealt harshly. In fact, destruction of public transit facilities is a felony in Md. Maintenance is usually done on weekends, especially Sunday, when the subway is closed. (Buses and streetcars [Yeah, I know it's Light Rail] can carry the Sunday load just fine.)
        
        Subject: Re: Universal Accessability & the Surplus
        Message Number: 761690
        Posted by: Zack
        Date: Mon Jan 12 14:12:17 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Universal Accessability & the Surplus posted by Adam on January 03, 1998 at 21:57:09: How would the "handicapped" pay the fares and other aspects. but is is a good idea but where will the wheelchair space in the cars be?? and wont the statieons have to be gutted anbd expanded for the extra room needed for the chairs and what about the cars?? it all = $$$$$$$
        
        Subject: Re: Universal Accessability & the Surplus
        Message Number: 761732
        Posted by: Dan Schwartz
        Date: Mon Jan 12 14:13:49 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Universal Accessability & the Surplus posted by Jim Davis on January 03, 1998 at 12:03:02: I don't think spending the surplus on access for the disabled is an effective way to use it. The number of disabled (i.e. wheelchair-bound or otherwise unable to use stairs) people who would use the subways in any event is quite small. Those with such disabilities are able to use the "Access-a-ride" program, where they essentially get taxi service for the price of a subway ride. The cost to provide each ride is relatively high, but it is still less than would be the cost of retrofitting the whole subway system for disabled access, divided by the number of rides such disabled people would take.

Thread title: GM fishbowl question (761477)
Started on Mon Jan 12 11:03:17 1998, by Timothy SpeER

Subject: GM fishbowl question
Message Number: 761477
Posted by: Timothy SpeER
Date: Mon Jan 12 11:03:17 1998

Growing up on the 20th floor of an apartment building, I always had a bird's eye view of the M-15's going up First Avenue. I was wondering about the large rectangular device on the tops of GM fishbowl buses (and maybe the Flxibles, too -- I can't remember too well). It probably measured about 3 feet by 4 feet. I always assumed it was a radio antenna or something, but if that's the case, why did it have to be so BIG? The antenna on RTS's is only a few inches long. Has the technology changed so much?
- Subject: Re: GM fishbowl question
- Message Number: 761489
- Posted by: Zack
- Date: Mon Jan 12 11:03:44 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]GM fishbowl question posted by Timothy SpeER on January 03, 1998 at 16:55:01: It could be a heater/AC device of some sort. Seattle's Bereta Buses have them mounted on the roof i think
  - Subject: Re: GM fishbowl question
  - Message Number: 761491
  - Posted by: subway-buff
  - Date: Mon Jan 12 11:03:49 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: GM fishbowl question posted by Zack on January 03, 1998 at 19:54:11: If it was straddling off the edge of the roof in the rear, it was the Air Conditioning unit. I am sure that Fernando Perez, our bus driver and bus expert could give you a longer discourse. an interesting side bar: The old fifth ave coach line goldfish bowls had A/C in such a place and NYCTA removed them when they siezed the rolling stock under eminent domain during fifth ave coach lines last strike(they formed MaBSTOA- Manhattan and Bronx Surface Transit Operating Authority to run those lines. (Here again, Fernando could give more details)
    - Subject: Re: GM fishbowl question
    - Message Number: 761493
    - Posted by: Timothy Speer
    - Date: Mon Jan 12 11:03:55 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: GM fishbowl question posted by subway-buff on January 03, 1998 at 20:01:34: NO -- These were definitely located towards the front of the bus. Many of the buses I'm taking about didn't even have A/C!!! Remember the fishbowls with the full-length fluorescent-lit advertising signs on each side at the top? Gordon's Gin was a common advertiser...
      - Subject: Re: GM fishbowl question
      - Message Number: 761495
      - Posted by: Anonymous
      - Date: Mon Jan 12 11:03:59 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: GM fishbowl question posted by Timothy Speer on January 03, 1998 at 20:43:24: You were right in the first place. The large rectangular objects in the front of the bus were radio antenas. Depending on the frequency used (not all depots used the same frequency) the antena looked like a fin of various lenghts, or the rectangular "hood." Today, all NYCT buses have a cone shaped antena.
        
        Subject: Re: GM fishbowl question
        Message Number: 761500
        Posted by: Fernando Perez
        Date: Mon Jan 12 11:04:08 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: GM fishbowl question posted by Anonymous on January 03, 1998 at 21:39:19: Anonymous is correct. I remember as a boy that only TA buses had those antennae and not any other lines in Manhattan. For those interested I have found some bus frequencies and here they are: 856.6125 855.6525 856.3875 856.4125 857.3875 857.4125 858.3875 858.4125 You'll here the command center and drivers and dispatcher patch.
        
        Subject: Re: GM fishbowl question
        Message Number: 761521
        Posted by: Bobw
        Date: Mon Jan 12 11:05:09 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: GM fishbowl question posted by Fernando Perez on January 03, 1998 at 23:55:11: Wasn't there also a ventilation device of some sort on the forward roofs of these buses? I had always heard that New York State had laws governing the amount of ventilation that buses had to have and that the 3' x 4' boxes described (which sound way too big for radios) contained the vent systems. ? This was also why I thought that GM offered the T6H-5309/10 model which was specifically designed for NYC's requirements. ?
        
        Subject: Re: GM fishbowl question
        Message Number: 761537
        Posted by: Charles Fiori
        Date: Mon Jan 12 11:05:51 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: GM fishbowl question posted by Timothy Speer on January 03, 1998 at 20:43:24: Anyone have any of the rollsigns from those buses. I seem to remember that those in Manhattan with fleet numbers in the 6000s had no AC and those with fleet numbers in the 8000s had AC. The first 1000 or so were in the Queens depots, with the lowest being assigned to Flushing, the next group to Jamaica. I can remember when those buses first arrived. #8038 was my first ride on the Q15.
        
        Subject: Re: GM fishbowl question
        Message Number: 761631
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Mon Jan 12 14:08:58 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: GM fishbowl question posted by Timothy Speer on January 03, 1998 at 20:43:24: Ahh, yesss, the "BatWings". I rode many a BatWing bus on the B41 in Brooklyn to get to and from the Junction (Flatbush/Nostrand Aves). They were usually numbered in the 8000 and 8100 series, IIRC. Some of the first BatWings, with no A/C, ran on Lexington Ave and were numbered in the 6600 and 6700 series, I think. Also, I think you can see one at the beginning of the "Odd Couple" TV series. --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: GM fishbowl question
        Message Number: 761635
        Posted by: Charles Fiori
        Date: Mon Jan 12 14:09:11 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: GM fishbowl question posted by Mark S Feinman on January 06, 1998 at 13:08:48: The side signs were changed by the operator, on the drivers side by leaning out his window, and on the curb side by either leaning out the rear door or out the window. Push buttons were on the side of the exit door mechanism housing. I have a sample of these signs, one from Ulmer Park, and another from Coliseum. Would loooovvvvee to find more. Anyone have any ideas???

Thread title: Commuter Rail Peak/Off Peak Fares, And Penalties (761478)
Started on Mon Jan 12 11:03:21 1998, by Timothy

Subject: Commuter Rail Peak/Off Peak Fares, And Penalties
Message Number: 761478
Posted by: Timothy
Date: Mon Jan 12 11:03:21 1998

Can anyone tell me why most commuter rail systems charge higher fares during peak (rush) hours, than other times of the day, instead of one flat fare that is good at all times, similar to subways and buses? Other than frequency of service, I've noticed no difference between a peak trip, and an off peak trip on a commuter train, and therefore, I don't see any reason why the fares should be raised during peak hours. If the peak fares included extras, such as complimentary newspapers, coffee, etc. for the passengers, it would be worth paying the difference. Also, most commuter rail systems charge a penalty if fares are paid on the train, if the station where you board has a ticket office. What would most likely happen if you were in a hurry, didn't have time to buy ticket at the station, and all you had was just enough money to pay the fare, but not enough to pay the penalty, which can range between $2.00 and $4.00? Would the conductor most likely: 1. Overlook it, and just say "Don't worry about it", 2. Make you get off the train at the next stop, or 3. Take your name and address, and bill you for the penalty? Thanks.
- Subject: Re: Commuter Rail Peak/Off Peak Fares, And Penalties
- Message Number: 761485
- Posted by: Peter Rosa
- Date: Mon Jan 12 11:03:35 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Commuter Rail Peak/Off Peak Fares, And Penalties posted by Timothy on January 03, 1998 at 16:59:35: Truthfully, I believe that higher rush-hour fares are nothing more than a means of generating revenue. It's not like congestion pricing, designed to encourage ridership at other times, because the vast majority of rush-hour riders do not have that flexibility.
  - Subject: Re: Commuter Rail Peak/Off Peak Fares, And Penalties
  - Message Number: 761488
  - Posted by: Steve
  - Date: Mon Jan 12 11:03:41 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Commuter Rail Peak/Off Peak Fares, And Penalties posted by Timothy on January 03, 1998 at 16:59:35: Instead of lookink at it from the point of view that the fare is raised for Peak travel hours, look at it, that the fares are lowered during off-peak hours. Off-peak fares are designed to induce people who can travel at off peak time to do so. There are some other differences too. My PM train runs express from Penn Station to Hicksville (no Jamaica), then express again to Wyandanch. On Off-Peak hours - every train is a local. As for the penalty fare, any of the 3 is likely to happen - depends on the conductor.
    - Subject: Re: Commuter Rail Peak/Off Peak Fares, And Penalties
    - Message Number: 761490
    - Posted by: subway-buff
    - Date: Mon Jan 12 11:03:47 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: Commuter Rail Peak/Off Peak Fares, And Penalties posted by Peter Rosa on January 03, 1998 at 19:16:52: I ride NJT frequently and use monthly tickets. I have seen conductors ask people to get off the train at the **same** stop (and the next stop)if the passenger did not have the money for the penalty. Usually though, the conductor will "warn" the passenger that next time they will be put off the train. The NJT rule book "empowers" conductors to accept such cases in the discretion of the conductor. (The benefit is that if the police are called, the conductor has to go with the violator to the police station and that would create extra work for the remaining crew members. ( They have one "conductor" and a number of "assistant conductors" plus a crew member called "flagman:" or "rear Brake" which I presume is a conductor/assistant conductor performing that job
      - Subject: Re: Commuter Rail Peak/Off Peak Fares, And Penalties
      - Message Number: 761506
      - Posted by: FRED WELLMAN
      - Date: Mon Jan 12 11:04:26 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Commuter Rail Peak/Off Peak Fares, And Penalties posted by subway-buff on January 03, 1998 at 19:57:00: I think peak pricing also distributs the passenger usage. When you have peak rates non commuters will use the off peak to shop ect. Subways that do not have peak fares have alot of shopppers ect an have a much higher passenger count.
        
        Subject: Re: Commuter Rail Peak/Off Peak Fares, And Penalties
        Message Number: 761511
        Posted by: Joe M
        Date: Mon Jan 12 11:04:41 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Commuter Rail Peak/Off Peak Fares, And Penalties posted by FRED WELLMAN on January 04, 1998 at 12:32:57: Most systems ususally use lower off peak fares to encourge people to ride off peak if they can to save cqppacity for the peak hours. Some systems that use fare cards (DC WAMATA) have peak and off peak fares for the subays sytem. I remember getting off at Metro Center one day to find many people waiting outside the turnstyles. Just I walked out the Information Agent announced on the PA that is was off peak and every one went into the system. Off peak there is a flat fare Peak is distance based. The computer and fare card calcualte where you got on and off and deducts the correct amount from the prepaid card. If there is not enough value left you need to go to the add a fare machine inside the station before you can exit. Reminds one of poor Charlie and the MTA.
        
        Subject: Re: Commuter Rail Peak/Off Peak Fares, And Penalties
        Message Number: 761520
        Posted by: Bobw
        Date: Mon Jan 12 11:05:07 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Commuter Rail Peak/Off Peak Fares, And Penalties posted by Timothy on January 03, 1998 at 16:59:35: As on any other type of conveyance, the principles of economics comes into play here, namely supply and demand. In peak hours, the demand is greatest for service, and the supply attempts to match, but generally cannot since fleet size, stations, tracks, etc cannot be designed around the highest volumes that are carried. There is a premium at these times, and premium rates can be justified. Why are airline fares relatively cheap now and they were out of sight two weeks ago? Same principle. Some riders can be very selective as to when they use the conveyance. Others cannot. Of course, those who are most flexible will often choose to ride when the level of service is greatest, i.e. the peak. If they can ride just as easily at other times, when demand for service is not as great and these riders could be better accommodated compared to those who do not have as much flexibility, why shouldn't fares be higher to discourage those who can ride off-peak (at cheaper rates)? Also, regular riders are often not as affected by the higher fares given the breaks offered with multiple-ride tickets and passes. Those who are more "hurt" by this are again the non-regulars and the selective riders. In my limited use of the commuter rail systems in the Northeast in peak periods, I have seen all three of your scenarios with the penalty fare. The strangest thing I've seen with fares, however (and this has nothing to do with the subject) is back when NJT offered free rides on its lines on the day of the Hoboken Festival. There were unbelievable exchanges when patrons were told that fares were free. I could not fathom how many riders practically screamed at ticket agents and conductors that they wanted to buy a ticket and they thought they were being tricked! So much for trying to give something away...
        
        Subject: Re: Commuter Rail Peak/Off Peak Fares, And Penalties
        Message Number: 761539
        Posted by: John B. Bredin
        Date: Mon Jan 12 11:05:56 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Commuter Rail Peak/Off Peak Fares, And Penalties posted by Timothy on January 03, 1998 at 16:59:35: Here in Chicago, the Metra doesn't have higher peak-time fares. But during peak periods, there are express trains that skip certain stations or series of stations, while in off-peak hours, every train stops at every station. I presume other commuter rail systems do the same thing, and expresses would be a good reason to charge extra -- that and the frequency of service (on Metra, trains every ten minutes or less at rush hour, instead of once an hour off-peak and on some lines once every two hours on weekends).
        
        Subject: Re: Commuter Rail Peak/Off Peak Fares, And Penalties
        Message Number: 761545
        Posted by: Lou from Brooklyn
        Date: Mon Jan 12 11:06:13 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Commuter Rail Peak/Off Peak Fares, And Penalties posted by Peter Rosa on January 03, 1998 at 19:16:52: During Peak Service there is a train every 20 minutes (3 an hour), during non peak it's one an hour. I'll pay extra for the two other trains or options. I have also paid on the train, but sometimes when the conductor finaly gets to me he charged me for getting on the train from the station we just left (3 zone differnce) and even with the penaltiy charge, it ended up cheaper. I also traveled once on Thanksgiving and the train was so crowded my ticket was never lifted.....

Thread title: Rail to wheel flange clearances (761479)
Started on Mon Jan 12 11:03:23 1998, by Timothy Speer

Subject: Rail to wheel flange clearances
Message Number: 761479
Posted by: Timothy Speer
Date: Mon Jan 12 11:03:23 1998

How close are the flanges of train wheels supposed to be to the inner edge of the rails? I assume it is different on a straightaway as opposed to on a curve, but I'd like some idea what the official tolerances are. Is it the same for all rail systems? ...or is it different on LRV systems, for example?

Thread title: Who Needs A Bridge When You Don't Have A Borough (761492)
Started on Mon Jan 12 11:03:52 1998, by Larry Littlefield

Subject: Who Needs A Bridge When You Don't Have A Borough
Message Number: 761492
Posted by: Larry Littlefield
Date: Mon Jan 12 11:03:52 1998

So half of the Manhattan Bridge has been out for a decade, a former commissioner of Transportation admits the bridge can't be fixed, and the MTA releases a report which says the bridge should be fixed. There is no plan, but there is a non-plan. Here it is. At some point it will no longer be possible to run trains over the bridge, and service will be ended. Instead of simply cutting off the affected portions of the borough to die, the MTA will presumable reroute service. People will transfer at Pacific Street, Atlantic Avenue, and DeKalb. Or they will get out and walk to other lines. As a result, a trip to work in Manhattan will become a crowded, hour and a half hell from anywhere in the borough at the same time that new and improved direct service to Grand Central is provide from Long Island and New Jersey. No one working in Manhattan (where two-thirds of the city's jobs are, and most of those that pay significant money) will put up with that by choice. So people will stop moving to Brooklyn, and others will lose. The value of property will fall. Unable to sell their houses, many of those moving from Bay Ridge, Bensonhurst, Midwood and other areas will subdivide their houses and try to rent them to those too poor to live anywhere else, but these poor people will not have access to jobs, nor will they pay enough to maintain the buildings. Eventually, the housing in these neighborhoods will be abandoned, with most if its better-off citizens relocated to places with better transportation (financed by my tax dollars). Alarmist? Take a ride up 3rd Avenue in the Bronx, where the 3rd Avenue El was torn down and a replacement was planned and never built. Look at the housing on either side. Then take a ride down Jerome Avenue, an eqaully poor area, but one which still exists. There are six tunnels from Brooklyn to Manhattan, and with modern signals they could carry the entire rush hour load. But a wide swath of the Borough is only connected to the bridges, or the bridges and one already crowded tunnel, and the tunnels are only connected to one set of tracks on the other side. The solution is easy and obvious -- and if you look at where the bridge lines and the tunnels cross, not that disruptive. But no. Brooklyn's "representatives" care only about their own little empires for which they secure funding, and the rest of the state cares little about Brooklyn. The Republicans screw Brooklyn because it always votes Democratic. The Democrats screw Brooklyn because they can, for the same reason. New York City is similarly abused at the state level. New York State is similarly abused at the national level. I say it again -- if New York City's spending on transportation, as a share of the income of its residents, had matched the national average from 1983 to 1996, it would have spent an additional $7 billion dollars. I have already paid for transportation improvements in Brooklyn (and decent schools, and not having people cut off from all income in my community), and keep on paying. But the money goes elsewhere. Its not road vs. rail, or the Manhattan Bridge vs. the 2nd Avenue Subway. Its the interests of those who actually want to stay in this city, and want it to have a future, vs. those who are moving away and using it as a cash cow.
- Subject: Re: Who Needs A Bridge When You Don't Have A Borough
- Message Number: 761515
- Posted by: Mellow one
- Date: Mon Jan 12 11:04:52 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Who Needs A Bridge When You Don't Have A Borough posted by Larry Littlefield on January 03, 1998 at 20:28:25: That's why I asked the question about putting a trollry or light rail vehicles (for the politically correct) back on the Brooklyn Bridge. Everyone forgets that the transit systems in NYC and Brooklyn were built by the entrepaneurs of the day, not the city or state governments. Yes, they did have to get franchise rights to build the systems. However, the original transit, trolley and predecessor steam lines were built and operated with private capital,and made a profit. Almost every New Yorker or Brooklynite is looking for the "government" to starighten out the mess they have made of everything they touch including the transit systems in NYC and everywhere else in this country.
  - Subject: Re: Who Needs A Bridge When You Don't Have A Borough
  - Message Number: 761531
  - Posted by: Mike Rothenberg
  - Date: Mon Jan 12 11:05:37 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Who Needs A Bridge When You Don't Have A Borough posted by Larry Littlefield on January 03, 1998 at 20:28:25: Interesting comments by Larry. There have been earlier comments by Larry (I think) and someone else about using both the Rutgers and Cranberry tunnels with appropriate connections on both the Brooklyn and Manhattan sides. It seems to me that the media needs to be contacted so they do a major publicity/education outreach effort to the general public. Won't local politicians respond if they are on the hotseat? What will the supposed $100 million + surplus be used for? Such a situation hasn't occurred before, in NYC (maintenance/ structural problems are unresolved & 10's of 1000's of subway riders are to permanently suffer). It's an outrage, & lousy NYC publicity.
    - Subject: Re: Who Needs A Bridge When You Don't Have A Borough
    - Message Number: 761559
    - Posted by: Brian
    - Date: Mon Jan 12 11:06:49 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: Who Needs A Bridge When You Don't Have A Borough posted by Mellow one on January 04, 1998 at 17:19:50: I am not a citizen of NYC but I live upstate I do frequent the city when there I make always use the subway. I have been reading into the history of the BMT formerly the BRT. It seems to me that it is the age old problem of people from outside of Brooklyn or any other part of NYC that try to make decessions on situations that they can not understand. Let Brooklynites make the decissions for Brooklyn yes. I see the folks from outside the city always cry it is our taxes that pay for that city. Ah but let us not forget that it is the raping (I know that a strong way of putting it) of the city that built the State. So goes NYC so goes the World if it falls so shall we all. Sorry about the speech ha..
      - Subject: Re: Who Needs A Bridge When You Don't Have A Borough
      - Message Number: 761580
      - Posted by: Larry Littlefield
      - Date: Mon Jan 12 11:08:07 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Who Needs A Bridge When You Don't Have A Borough posted by Brian on January 05, 1998 at 15:08:24: The money sucked out of New York City to provide luxo-services upstate has not made upstate prosperous, just as the money sucked out of upstate to fund the Medico-industrial complex in the city hasn't helped. I have a deal and I think its a good one -- you pay for yours, we'll pay for ours, and we'll cut out the middle man in Albany. Why complain about our subways and have us complain about all those employed on the state road crews? Let's eliminate the Vampire State.
        
        Subject: Re: Who Needs A Bridge When You Don't Have A Borough
        Message Number: 761611
        Posted by: Ex-Brooklyn Boy
        Date: Mon Jan 12 14:07:44 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Who Needs A Bridge When You Don't Have A Borough posted by Larry Littlefield on January 03, 1998 at 20:28:25: Don't panic yet! Brooklyn will not be killed by subway delays, people will adapt. Your Bronx analogy is not correct, that part of the Bronx was in bad shape for many years before the 3rd Avenue el was demolished. The old housing stock in Brooklyn is the real problem. With the exception of Bay Ridge, Dyker Heights and a few other neighborhoods the middle-class has left Brooklyn. What you have left is an unfortunately uneducated working class and underclass that were probably attracted to Brooklyn in the first place because of it's cheap public transportation. It cuts both ways.
        
        Subject: Re: Who Needs A Bridge When You Don't Have A Borough
        Message Number: 761802
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:34:41 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Who Needs A Bridge When You Don't Have A Borough posted by Larry Littlefield on January 05, 1998 at 20:39:43: I don't suppose this observation will add any light to this discussion, but having lived both in Brooklyn and Albany, my opinion is that no matter how much money is poured into Albany, it will always SUCK compared to THE CITY as a place to live!

Thread title: Red buses on Avenue B (761494)
Started on Mon Jan 12 11:03:56 1998, by Timothy Speer

Subject: Red buses on Avenue B
Message Number: 761494
Posted by: Timothy Speer
Date: Mon Jan 12 11:03:56 1998

Does anyone else remember riding the red buses on Avenue B? I believe it was called the M9 then, too. I actually don't remember riding INSIDE the bus -- the taillights were big enough to hold onto if you stood on the bumper. Thrillsville! What did the East Broadway bus company evolve from? What other lines did it run? When did it go out of business?
- Subject: Re: Red buses on Avenue B
- Message Number: 761498
- Posted by: Fernando Perez
- Date: Mon Jan 12 11:04:05 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Red buses on Avenue B posted by Timothy Speer on January 03, 1998 at 20:48:38: The Red and Tan bus company which had thier garage on Cherry and Clinton St where the PAthmark is now located. They operated the M8 and M9 and the X90 express bus. They went out of business in 1980 just before the transit strike of that year.
  - Subject: Re: Red buses on Avenue B
  - Message Number: 761503
  - Posted by: Timothy Speer
  - Date: Mon Jan 12 11:04:17 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Red buses on Avenue B posted by Fernando Perez on January 03, 1998 at 23:46:08: Now that you mention it, I do remember the garage, but I'm quite certain the name of the company was the East Broadway Bus Company, not the Red & Tan. Red & Tan is a New Jersey based company which was just bought out in 1997 by Coach USA.
    - Subject: Re: Red buses on Avenue B
    - Message Number: 761519
    - Posted by: Bobw
    - Date: Mon Jan 12 11:05:03 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: Red buses on Avenue B posted by Timothy Speer on January 04, 1998 at 06:52:52: My recollection is that the company's name was the Avenue B and East Broadway Bus Company and I believe it evolved from horsecar lines. ? Red and Tan was a separate company, as you noted. Perhaps locally in Manhattan it was referred to as the Red & Tan. ?
      - Subject: Re: Red buses on Avenue B
      - Message Number: 761528
      - Posted by: Timothy Speer
      - Date: Mon Jan 12 11:05:29 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Red buses on Avenue B posted by Bobw on January 04, 1998 at 17:58:13: I can't imagine anyone calling it the red & Tan -- there was no tan!!!
        
        Subject: Re: Red buses on Avenue B
        Message Number: 761532
        Posted by: Fernando Perez
        Date: Mon Jan 12 11:05:41 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Red buses on Avenue B posted by Timothy Speer on January 04, 1998 at 21:17:43: My apologies to my fellow subtalkees. You are indeed right s to the name of the bus company being Avenue B/East Broadway bus company. Perhaps it was just a name us Loisaidia's use to call it. The company was acquired by the NYCTA on March 29,1980. It brings back many memories because as a young boy I would sneak into thier yard where the older junked equipment was stored and play for hours on the old heaps acting as a junior bus operator. I guess the practice helped because now Im a old guy bus operator. It could be also that many of the buses they ran were really old heaps and maybe they purchased some older equipment from Red and Tans lines, like Metro apple useto do, and just didn't paint over them!
        
        Subject: Re: Red buses on Avenue B
        Message Number: 761534
        Posted by: Timothy Speer
        Date: Mon Jan 12 11:05:45 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Red buses on Avenue B posted by Fernando Perez on January 05, 1998 at 03:20:23: That could be! I would have loved playing on their old junked buses -- too bad I lived on E.6th between 1st and A... I was a little too far from their yard. Were the fares the same as on NYCTA buses?
        
        Subject: Re: Red buses on Avenue B
        Message Number: 761536
        Posted by: Charles Fiori
        Date: Mon Jan 12 11:05:50 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Red buses on Avenue B posted by Timothy Speer on January 05, 1998 at 05:22:47: I remember riding the express route up to the East Side once. We broke down on the Drive and had to be rescued by the follower. Not unique to Ave. B service, the only other time I rode an express up from Wall St, on TA service, it broke down on the Drive, too!!!
        
        Subject: Re: Red buses on Avenue B
        Message Number: 761615
        Posted by: Bob Sklar
        Date: Mon Jan 12 14:07:52 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Red buses on Avenue B posted by Fernando Perez on January 05, 1998 at 03:20:23: No, that's the name of the company - The Avenue B and East Broadway Transit Company. The name has appeared in places such as Geographia Map Co.'s old Red Book street guides. Bob Sklar

Thread title: Red Tape (761497)
Started on Mon Jan 12 11:04:03 1998, by Adam

Subject: Red Tape
Message Number: 761497
Posted by: Adam
Date: Mon Jan 12 11:04:03 1998

One common theme I have noticed in a lot of the postings here is all the red tape involved in starting new projects. Why is it so hard to get things done now? If it were like this in the past, I think that our subway system would be a fraction of the size it is now. I think that our politicians should work on eliminating a lot of the wasteful processes involved in starting new projects and get moving on some important ones. Also, I can find no explaination why the 63rd to Grand Central connection for the LIRR is so important for the MTA. Why does the MTA consistently cater to Long Island residents at the expense of those in the city? I guess the money-bearing Long Islanders are more important than the hard-working residents of Brooklyn, at least according to the MTA.
- Subject: Re: Red Tape
- Message Number: 761507
- Posted by: Droo
- Date: Mon Jan 12 11:04:29 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]Red Tape posted by Adam on January 03, 1998 at 22:35:12: I have to disagree. The East River tunnels that connect Penn Station to the LIRR and Amtrak lines in Queens are often overcrowded. Furthermore, I believe Amtrak would like to expand its service in Penn Station, and that cannot be done with the current LIRR presence; a solution when the 63rd Street Tunnel was being planned and built was to put an LIRR station in or around Grand Central. However, to my knowledge (and please correct me if I am wrong) the LIRR level of the 63rd St. Tunnel is not being connected to anything at the moment (I recall reading somewhere that the LIRR level is in fact unusable without significant repair). Perhaps the reason why the birth and expansion of the early subway system is different from today is that when the subway system was being built the the IRT & BMT, these were private companies. Furthermore, they had the luck of building in mostly undeveloped areas (with the obvious exception of what is now downtown Manhattan). Thus, construction was much easier (cut and cover must have been much simpler back then), and since the system was privately funded by rich investors such as August Belmont, questions of public funding were not as important as it is today.
  - Subject: Re: Red Tape
  - Message Number: 761523
  - Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
  - Date: Mon Jan 12 11:05:13 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Red Tape posted by Droo on January 04, 1998 at 12:36:07: Heck, given that Slamtrak won't be around much longer, I don't see any new need for a LIRR->GCT connection. And while we're on the subject, anyone want to place bets on when Amtrak will be gone by?? I say before 2005. Given that they aren't even going to meet their promised High Speed rail on the NEC, and given that plenty in congress want them dead.. Ok...but who would get the NEC then?? I've heard Guilford wants it, but I don't think that'll happen. Ok... I'd say the LIRR should build a terminal downtown (like near City Hall), and tunnel from Atlantic Ave to it. Then you'd get rail acess to downtown, near Wall St., and you'd also get a 4/5/6, etc connection to the subway.

Thread title: Re: GM fishbowl AC question (761501)
Started on Mon Jan 12 11:04:11 1998, by Joe M

Subject: Re: GM fishbowl AC question
Message Number: 761501
Posted by: Joe M
Date: Mon Jan 12 11:04:11 1998

In Reply to: [7]Re: GM fishbowl question posted by Fernando Perez on January 03, 1998 at 23:55:11: When Blitz rehabed the Fishbowls in 83 and 84 they removed the AC. I remember the empty AC hoods over the back windows. Did they reinstall AC later to these buses?
- Subject: Re: GM fishbowl AC question
- Message Number: 761517
- Posted by: Eric B
- Date: Mon Jan 12 11:04:55 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]Re: GM fishbowl AC question posted by Joe M on January 04, 1998 at 00:00:42: Yes, they were placed in the center of the roof.

Thread title: Re: Tales of a student MetroCard and a privacy question (police the biggest (761502)
Started on Mon Jan 12 11:04:15 1998, by .

Subject: Re: Tales of a student MetroCard and a privacy question (police the biggest
Message Number: 761502
Posted by: .
Date: Mon Jan 12 11:04:15 1998
- Subject: Re: Tales of a student MetroCard and a privacy question (police the biggest
- Message Number: 761541
- Posted by: .
- Date: Mon Jan 12 11:06:02 1998

Thread title: Metro Mess (761504)
Started on Mon Jan 12 11:04:21 1998, by George

Subject: Metro Mess
Message Number: 761504
Posted by: George
Date: Mon Jan 12 11:04:21 1998

The Transit Authority tells people that they are giving away free rides with metrocard purchases. This sounds great but when I went to buy a card I saw a message on the bulletin board that said computer not working. After my train ride I went to another token booth and tried to buy a metrocard. But guess what, the clerk said the computer was not working.
- Subject: Re: Metro Mess
- Message Number: 761527
- Posted by: Adam
- Date: Mon Jan 12 11:05:26 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Metro Mess posted by George on January 04, 1998 at 11:37:17: Somehow I strongly suspect the computer "breaks" when they want the line to move faster. I hate how long the Metrocard takes to sell. I was on line for a token and a train was coming into the station. Naturally, everything speeded up and the next 5 people ahead of me bought their tokens in like 5 seconds. I had hope I would make the incoming train. Then, my luck, the lady in front of me buys a Metrocard, taking twice as long as all 5 people in front of me and making me miss my train. They need a seperate line for tokens and Metrocard. Or just don't sell Metrocard during rush hours.
  - Subject: Re: Metro Mess
  - Message Number: 761533
  - Posted by: Subman23
  - Date: Mon Jan 12 11:05:43 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: Metro Mess posted by Adam on January 04, 1998 at 20:37:03: Adam, Let me assure you that clerks do not disable the T.B.T. (computer). When a computer goes down a supervisor must be summoned to audit the funds in the booth. Often, this process causes clerks to be forced to stay hours after their scheduled time of relief. Furthermore, customers yell and scream at the clerks; blaming them for this billion dollar political white elephant. It does seem to me that token booth computers do go down too frequently. Blame it on the crappy equipment purchased from Cubic Corp. by the MTA. I often wonder how many people have gotten rich off of this project by purchasing shares in Cubic (symbol: CUB.)? The Authority has no plans to eliminate metrocard sales during rush hour periods. In fact, automatic vending machines will be available,sometime in the future (another fiasco purchase), to give customers another outlet to purchase their metrocards. The Authority is also promoting off-system sales of metrocards. Their ultimate goal is to eliminate the token and force customers to use metrocards. F.Y.I. : Policy is for clerks to sell pre-encoded $15 and $6 cards when the token booth computer malfunctions.
    - Subject: Re: Metro Mess
    - Message Number: 761550
    - Posted by: Nick
    - Date: Mon Jan 12 11:06:29 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: Metro Mess posted by Subman23 on January 05, 1998 at 03:48:42: It's definitly time for those metrocard vending machines...I know how long it takes to buy metrocards...as well as when there are 5 people in front of you buying them as well!! I just hope the MTA doesn't waste money on crappy machines, because then they'll just be out of order all the time.-Nick
      - Subject: Re: Metro Mess
      - Message Number: 761553
      - Posted by: Timothy Speer
      - Date: Mon Jan 12 11:06:34 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Metro Mess posted by Nick on January 05, 1998 at 12:01:42: Maybe the MTA should also invest in a few token vending machines at busier stations (if they haven't already). This would ease some of the token booth clerks' workload as their jobs change and Metrocards become the preferred method of payment.
        
        Subject: Re: Metro Mess
        Message Number: 761557
        Posted by: Brian
        Date: Mon Jan 12 11:06:44 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Metro Mess posted by Timothy Speer on January 05, 1998 at 12:22:53: Let us not be so hard on the clerks in the booths after all the ultimate goal of the MTA is to get rid of them. It is true the system needs improvements but if they would only ask the clerks they might get some results instead of always threating to get rid of them.
        
        Subject: Re: Metro Mess
        Message Number: 761567
        Posted by: Adam
        Date: Mon Jan 12 11:07:11 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Metro Mess posted by Brian on January 05, 1998 at 14:54:50: Are they just going to get rid of the token clerks or are they going to alter their jobs and use them as a customer service agents as they do in the Washington DC Metro? I don't like the idea of eliminating them. Late at night they are sometimes the only other person in the station besides you at times. Token booths are a safe place to wait and also a place to go for help. I fear that if they are eliminated the crime will skyrocket at night.

Thread title: Bent arm Vs Diamond pantagraphs.... (761510)
Started on Mon Jan 12 11:04:38 1998, by Philip Nasadowski

Subject: Bent arm Vs Diamond pantagraphs....
Message Number: 761510
Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
Date: Mon Jan 12 11:04:38 1998

Ok... This one has been bugging me for a while... Why does NJT use a diamond shaped pantagraph, and Septa, and Metro North use a bent arm type?? Is there a real difference between the two? Or is it just the prefeance of the railroads?? I've heard that bent arm designs are supposed to be more aerodynamic, but I don't believe it.
- Subject: Re: Bent arm Vs Diamond pantagraphs....
- Message Number: 761513
- Posted by: subway-buff
- Date: Mon Jan 12 11:04:47 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Bent arm Vs Diamond pantagraphs.... posted by Philip Nasadowski on January 04, 1998 at 15:32:32: I have to cloud the piocture a bit :-( NJT uses the bent arm for their ALP44 locomotives (their electric locomtives). I too have had this question and never asked !!
  - Subject: Re: Bent arm Vs Diamond pantagraphs....
  - Message Number: 761516
  - Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
  - Date: Mon Jan 12 11:04:54 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Bent arm Vs Diamond pantagraphs.... posted by subway-buff on January 04, 1998 at 17:07:38: He he... Ok, more fun stuff: The GG-1 was still in use until '80 or so, the E-60 was around then. The GG-1 has a diamond. The E-60 has a 2 bent arms at one end. Yeah. Two. One aimed one way, one the other. At the same end. GE never ceases to amaze me. I've seen pictures of Reading trains with funky pans too... Yet nobody has ever told me why bent arms are better.
    - Subject: Re: Bent arm Vs Diamond pantagraphs....
    - Message Number: 761801
    - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
    - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:34:39 1998
      
      In Reply to: [7]Bent arm Vs Diamond pantagraphs.... posted by Philip Nasadowski on January 04, 1998 at 15:32:32: The "Bent arm" type you refer to is called a Faivley Pantograph. The idea behind them is simplicity, leading hopefully to reduced maintenance and less damage in case of a snag. The important consideration in choosing which pantograph to raise is not which way it points, but rather to use the downstream pickup, so that if a given car's pan snags, it does not foul the lowered piece of equipment on the same car and thus disable the car.

Thread title: NYCT Deja Vu on NJT!! (761514)
Started on Mon Jan 12 11:04:49 1998, by subway-buff

Subject: NYCT Deja Vu on NJT!!
Message Number: 761514
Posted by: subway-buff
Date: Mon Jan 12 11:04:49 1998

Back in the 1970s NYCT mixed cars of various colors, models on the trains. Lately I've noticed NJT runnings trains consisting of mixed comet III and comet IV cars on the same train! Doesd anyone know why (It answers the unasked question- it seeems that all NJT push/pull cars can couple with their other push pull cars). Can they couple to their MU cars?
- Subject:
- Message Number:
- Posted by:
- Date: Wed Dec 31 19:00:00 1969

Thread title: Abandoned station on Flatbush Ave Line??? (761524)
Started on Mon Jan 12 11:05:17 1998, by Philip Nasadowski

Subject: Abandoned station on Flatbush Ave Line???
Message Number: 761524
Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
Date: Mon Jan 12 11:05:17 1998

Hey - does anyone know anything about the abandoned station on the Flatbush AVE line between Jamacia and East New York??? What was it called/when was it closed, etc??? Also, does anyones browser support the _blink_ tag?? :-)
- Subject: Re: Abandoned station on Flatbush Ave Line???
- Message Number: 761529
- Posted by: Steve
- Date: Mon Jan 12 11:05:32 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Abandoned station on Flatbush Ave Line??? posted by Philip Nasadowski on January 04, 1998 at 19:56:59: The station was Woodhaven: no idea when it was closed...
  - Subject: Re: Abandoned station on Flatbush Ave Line???
  - Message Number: 761540
  - Posted by: Peter Rosa
  - Date: Mon Jan 12 11:05:59 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Abandoned station on Flatbush Ave Line??? posted by Steve on January 04, 1998 at 22:39:46: The Woodhaven station was closed in the middle 1970s. Ridership was low, especially since the abandonment of the LIRR's Rockaway line (the station was located near the latter line and could be used for transfers).
    - Subject: Re: Abandoned station on Flatbush Ave Line???
    - Message Number: 761549
    - Posted by: Nick
    - Date: Mon Jan 12 11:06:26 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: Abandoned station on Flatbush Ave Line??? posted by Peter Rosa on January 05, 1998 at 09:28:27: Don't know about the station, but my browser (Netscape 4.0) supported the blinking tag. :)-Nick
      - Subject: Re: Abandoned station on Flatbush Ave Line???
      - Message Number: 761582
      - Posted by: Adam
      - Date: Mon Jan 12 11:08:17 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Abandoned station on Flatbush Ave Line??? posted by Nick on January 05, 1998 at 11:57:09: As well as my browser, Netscape 3.01, supports the blink tag!
        
        Subject: Re: Abandoned station on Flatbush Ave Line???
        Message Number: 761844
        Posted by: sdc-foti
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:36:25 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Abandoned station on Flatbush Ave Line??? posted by Philip Nasadowski on January 04, 1998 at 19:56:59: netscape does the Bliky Bliky chamnadoody, Foti

Thread title: Transit Museum (761525)
Started on Mon Jan 12 11:05:20 1998, by Savannah O.

Subject: Transit Museum
Message Number: 761525
Posted by: Savannah O.
Date: Mon Jan 12 11:05:20 1998

This weekend I went to the Transit Museum in Brooklyn. It is a MUST for anyone interested in the subway. The museum is housed in a real subway station, with cars dating back from the 1890's. Who knew that there were actualy wooden subway cars back in the day? You actually get to sit in the wicker seats and look up at the osculating fans. It's only $3 and not too crowded on Sat.
- Subject: Re: Transit Museum
- Message Number: 761546
- Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
- Date: Mon Jan 12 11:06:16 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]Transit Museum posted by Savannah O. on January 04, 1998 at 20:05:57: The wooden trains didn't have oscillating (oscillating structure + ordinary rotation) fans. They had large overhead fans. And, believe it or not, old wooden cars ran on the Myrtle Avenue El until whenever they tore it down in the early 1970s. That was because the structure was not strong enough for modern cars. Wicker seats were in cars built as late as the early 50s, in the A trains and 7 trains that had bright-colored paint inside, small destination signs (bad idea), and light bulbs with translucent covers over them, not quite fluorescent, but close. They also had small vertically-positioned fans with metal protective covers on them for the first time. To me that was the beginning of the modern looking, colorful, bright trains (soon to have fluorescent lights) that replaced the old-style of trains: those with black, green and sometimes white paint and a bunch of incandescent bulbs and a fan which could take your head off if you were tall enough. I believe these are may be still around, but repainted with the white and baby blue outside.
  - Subject: Re: Transit Museum
  - Message Number: 761547
  - Posted by: Charles Fiori
  - Date: Mon Jan 12 11:06:18 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]Transit Museum posted by Savannah O. on January 04, 1998 at 20:05:57: Savannah, all here on this site can agree on the cool things at the Transit Museum and we are grateful that you took the time to join in the discourse on all things Transit. We did not know, however, that the fans in the cars actually kiss (osculate!!!) Oscillate, maybe; Osculate, never (unless maybe in the last car. ;-) )
    - Subject: Re: Transit Museum
    - Message Number: 761548
    - Posted by: Nick
    - Date: Mon Jan 12 11:06:23 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: Transit Museum posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 05, 1998 at 11:12:32: I was at the transit museum back in April, and toured the cars with bright paints inside them. I must say they were pretty funky (which is cool). I'm surprised they had those back in the 50s...it seemed more like a 60s-70s style to me.-Nick
      - Subject: Re: Transit Museum
      - Message Number: 761552
      - Posted by: Timothy Speer
      - Date: Mon Jan 12 11:06:32 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Transit Museum posted by Nick on January 05, 1998 at 11:55:20: Have you ever seen the list of color schemes available for the 1955-57 Chevrolets? The fifties were NOT lacking in bright colors!
        
        Subject: Re: Transit Museum
        Message Number: 761556
        Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
        Date: Mon Jan 12 11:06:41 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Transit Museum posted by Timothy Speer on January 05, 1998 at 12:19:23: No, that's when the new cars started having colors. It was the old ones, before these lit-up A trains, that lacked color. The 50s is when colorful subway cars began to be used.
        
        Subject: Re: Transit Museum
        Message Number: 761591
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Mon Jan 12 11:08:49 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Transit Museum posted by Savannah O. on January 04, 1998 at 20:05:57: What's even cooler are the Nostalgia Trains (now being run 3x a year) where you not only get to sit in those seats but hear the hum (growl) of the traction motors and the straps that made commuters "straphangers". Oh yeah, the set of 3 BRT gate cars? That's going to be the next Nostalgia Train on April 26th, 1998. D-Types to Lefferts Blvd, transfer to the gate cars to Rockaway. If you're not a member, this is a great reason to become one - this trip is for members only! See them being restored on a tour being held Tuesday March 24th at 6pm at the Coney Island yards. --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: Transit Museum
        Message Number: 761593
        Posted by: Brian
        Date: Mon Jan 12 11:08:53 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Transit Museum posted by Savannah O. on January 04, 1998 at 20:05:57: Yes I agree the folks there are friendly and cool. I brang my kids there just this past summer they had a great time and it is affordable extremely so. while there we toured the building of the subways exhibit I "Steel, Stone and Backbone" I believe it was called I could not believe the impact that it made on my kids. They were amazed to see that the subway which to them seems sort of mordern was built mostly by people using picks and shovels. A for sure thing for any train or history buff to check out. We all played conductor while in the cars . So go there and relive your childhood again real soon.
        
        Subject: Re: Transit Museum
        Message Number: 761606
        Posted by: Adam
        Date: Mon Jan 12 14:07:35 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Transit Museum posted by Mark S Feinman on January 05, 1998 at 23:03:08: And even better, those on the tour get to ride the 1904 Brooklyn Union cars back from Rockaway! They are currently being restored at the Coney Island shop. Hurry up and make reservations before it fills up (if it isn't already!).
        
        Subject: Re: Transit Museum
        Message Number: 761624
        Posted by: John Stewart
        Date: Mon Jan 12 14:08:22 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Transit Museum posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 05, 1998 at 11:12:32: It's interesting that you mentioned the wicker seats. I moved to New York in the early 70s, and I remember that one of the local lines--the AA or the CC?--had subway cars that actually had wicker seats. Coming to New York with the idea that it was the world leader in just about everything, I was really shocked! I believe that they also had the small vertically-positioned fans with metal protective covers that you mention. However, I remember the interiors as being painted a blackish green (perhaps OD?). A friend of mine had to take this line occasionally, and she jokingly called it "the death train"!

Thread title: Re: Bent arm vs. Diamond pantagraphs.... (761535)
Started on Mon Jan 12 11:05:47 1998, by Charles Fiori

Subject: Re: Bent arm vs. Diamond pantagraphs....
Message Number: 761535
Posted by: Charles Fiori
Date: Mon Jan 12 11:05:47 1998

In Reply to: [7]Re: Bent arm Vs Diamond pantagraphs.... posted by Philip Nasadowski on January 04, 1998 at 17:21:25: Or why the 'point' of the bent arm points in the direction of travel???
- Subject: Re: Bent arm vs. Diamond pantagraphs....
- Message Number: 761571
- Posted by: Dan Lawrence
- Date: Mon Jan 12 11:07:28 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]Re: Bent arm vs. Diamond pantagraphs.... posted by Charles Fiori on January 05, 1998 at 08:25:33: Not always. The Baltimore LRV's have one pantograph on the A car with the "bent arm" pointing toward the cab end of the A car. This means that the pans face "backwards" on the northbound trips. We have had a few dewirements, but not where you'd expect - the "Rebel Yell". All have occurred on the south end of the line (around Patapsco Avenue) and usually results in the wire getting torn down. Strangely, dewirements have occurred there in both directions. Go figure.

Thread title: New (sortof)Book (761538)
Started on Mon Jan 12 11:05:54 1998, by Lou from Middletown

Subject: New (sortof)Book
Message Number: 761538
Posted by: Lou from Middletown
Date: Mon Jan 12 11:05:54 1998

I went to the Transit Museum for the first time in a long time the other day,and the new (to me) gift shop they now have Stan Fischler's updating of UPTOWN,DOWNTOWN-and believe it or not I've already forgotten the title!! Has anyone actually read this yet?? (I didn't happen to have an extra $30 on me-why are railbooks so expensive??)Also, how is this book of historical maps?? By the way, I must say how friendly everyone there is !!! Also in way of a NEW POLL, which fairly old railbook would you like to see updated?? I really wish Brian Cudahy would update RAILS ACROSS THE MIGHTY HUDSON!!!!
- Subject: Re: New (sortof)Book
- Message Number: 761542
- Posted by: Joshua Caesar
- Date: Mon Jan 12 11:06:04 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]New (sortof)Book posted by Lou from Middletown on January 05, 1998 at 09:25:34: I went to the Barnes & Nobles in Bay Terrace a few weeks ago and meet Stan Fischler. I also got an autographed copy of his new book. While I haven't had the time to read too deeply into it yet, what I read did seem pretty good. When I get time and delve deeply into the book, I will let you know how it is. Joshua Caesar studlyjc@aol.com
  - Subject: Re: New (sortof)Book
  - Message Number: 761554
  - Posted by: Todd Glickman
  - Date: Mon Jan 12 11:06:37 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: New (sortof)Book posted by Joshua Caesar on January 05, 1998 at 09:49:29: I have read Stan's new book. (In fact, I got to interview him on WCBS Newsradio 88 about a month ago; kinda strange for a meteorologist - but the producer knew of my "hobby"!) The book is good reading. The most enjoyable part in my opinion is the recounting of events (building the lines, wrecks, etc.) in a manner which conveys the views of people at the time -- a real "human touch." I will say there were some minor technical errors here and there -- but probably only the kind that TA workers and SubTalkers would notice :-) [Though if he had the book reviewed for these, he could have eliminated them easily.] Towards the end, he "rates" all of the lines on a scale of one to four; I was very surprised that the Q wasn't rated higher -- he didn't even mention the great ride over the Manhattan Bridge! But all-in-all I'd rate it a "buy."
    - Subject: Re: New (sortof)Book
    - Message Number: 761555
    - Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
    - Date: Mon Jan 12 11:06:39 1998
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: New (sortof)Book posted by Todd Glickman on January 05, 1998 at 12:52:30: What is the name of the book? I can't find anything other than the original Uptown, Downtown and a lot of hockey books by Stan Fischler? Can you give us the ISBN number, also? I would really appreciate it, since I'm down here in WTOP-1500 territory and can't get to the Transit Museum nearly as often as I'd like... (though WCBS comes in great at night, and lately because of the early sunset as early as 3:30 PM sometimes.)
      - Subject: Re: New (sortof)Book
      - Message Number: 761566
      - Posted by: Adam
      - Date: Mon Jan 12 11:07:09 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: New (sortof)Book posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 05, 1998 at 13:32:03: The book is called "The Subway: A Trip Through Time On New York's Rapid Transit" by Stan Fischler H&M Productions II Inc. Publisher / New York 193-07 45th Ave. Flushing, NY 11358 ISBN# 1-882608-19-4
        
        Subject: Re: New (sortof)Book
        Message Number: 761584
        Posted by: David Pirmann
        Date: Mon Jan 12 11:08:26 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]New (sortof)Book posted by Lou from Middletown on January 05, 1998 at 09:25:34: > I really wish Brian Cudahy would update RAILS ACROSS THE MIGHTY > HUDSON!!!! maybe we can get him to let us put it up on the web! *grin* Dave
        
        Subject: Re: New (sortof)Book
        Message Number: 761585
        Posted by: Peter Rosa
        Date: Mon Jan 12 11:08:31 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: New (sortof)Book posted by Todd Glickman on January 05, 1998 at 12:52:30: I bought the book today, at the Union Square Barnes and Noble, and read a few bits of it on the train home to Patchogue. The parts about subway accidents caught my attention, and I must say that Stan Fischler's descriptions of them were fascinating and a bit scary ... next time a subway operator overshoots a platform, I'm getting off no matter where the stop is located!
        
        Subject: Re: New (sortof)Book
        Message Number: 761589
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Mon Jan 12 11:08:45 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: New (sortof)Book posted by Todd Glickman on January 05, 1998 at 12:52:30: > (In fact, I got to interview him on WCBS Newsradio 88 about a month ago; Is there a RealAudio clip or transcript available off the WCBS web site? I missed the interview. > The book is good reading....in a manner which conveys the views of people > at the time -- a real "human touch." Mr Fischler is known for this kind of writing, having seen it in his other books "Confessions of a Trolley Dodger from Brooklyn" and "Next Stop: Grand Central". > Towards the end, he "rates" all of the lines on a scale of one to four .. I'm nost sure I agree with all of his ratings but I'll have to read them carefully and see. The book is a 2 thumbs up, IMHO. --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: New (sortof)Book
        Message Number: 761622
        Posted by: Todd Glickman
        Date: Mon Jan 12 14:08:15 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: New (sortof)Book posted by Mark S Feinman on January 05, 1998 at 22:58:31: Unfortunately, WCBS does not 'Real-audio clip' day-to-day things. In fact, they took down the Real-audio live feed -- the new Chairman of CBS, Mel Karmazin, said that no CBS station could do it -- don't ask me why! So unless someone out there in radioland recorded the interview, it's gone forever. But maybe I can get to do it again sometime....
        
        Subject: Re: New (sortof)Book
        Message Number: 761812
        Posted by: Rail Fan
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:35:04 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: New (sortof)Book posted by Adam on January 05, 1998 at 16:59:59: How long ago was the book printed because I looked on the www.amazon.com website and was not able to find it. When I was at www.amazon.com I search for "The Subway: A Trip Through Time On New York's Rapid Transit" What is the price of the book?
        
        Subject: Re: New (sortof)Book
        Message Number: 761813
        Posted by: Michael S. Buglak
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:35:06 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: New (sortof)Book posted by Rail Fan on January 09, 1998 at 16:32:11: The book was released only in November or December, 1997, AFAIK. The price is $29.95. Try searching www.amazon.com by the author's name, (Stan Fischler) or the ISBN number (See other posts in this thread). Michael S. Buglak, Collegeville, PA
        
        Subject: Re: New (sortof)Book
        Message Number: 761818
        Posted by: David Pirmann
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:35:17 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: New (sortof)Book posted by Michael S. Buglak on January 09, 1998 at 16:42:18: The book is not listed in Amazon. I suspect the publisher (H&M Productions) is too small to have a distribution agreement with them. Try local trolley/transit museums (NY Transit Museum has it) or order direct from the publisher.
        
        Subject: Re: New (sortof)Book
        Message Number: 761826
        Posted by: Peter Rosa
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:35:38 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: New (sortof)Book posted by David Pirmann on January 09, 1998 at 17:39:47: Barnes and Noble's Web site (www.barnesandnoble.com) has the book, at $29.95, available by special order in 4 to 6 weeks.
        
        Subject: Re: New (sortof)Book
        Message Number: 761856
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:37:03 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: New (sortof)Book posted by David Pirmann on January 09, 1998 at 17:39:47: The Barnes & Noble on Route 17 NORTH in Paramus (1/2 mile north of Route 4) had it. There were 3 copies there when I purchsed mine last week. The other Barnes & Noble further up on the southbound side of Route 17 (the HUGE one) didn't have it, but I saw most of the other NY transit related books, including some by H&M productions (the Transit Maps book, for one). --Mark

Thread title: MTA NYC Transit: AFC Bulletin AFC42-97 (761543)
Started on Mon Jan 12 11:06:06 1998, by Lou from Brooklyn

Subject: MTA NYC Transit: AFC Bulletin AFC42-97
Message Number: 761543
Posted by: Lou from Brooklyn
Date: Mon Jan 12 11:06:06 1998

[from nyc.transit] MTA New York City Transit AFC Bulletin Bulletin Order #AFC42-97 December 22, 1997 New Fare Policy: The Free-Ride Program S. Frazzini, Stations AFC This bulletin is to review the new fare policy that goes into effect on January 1, 1998. Also discussed is how to handle problems that may occur as we make this major change. If you have any questions about this bulletin, please contact your supervisor, field manager, or field office. You can also contact Stations AFC at , Monday through Friday, 8:30 AM to 4:30 PM. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -- The Free-Ride Program: 10 Percent Bonus On January 1, 1998, MTA New York City Transit will start its Free-Ride Program. Anytime a customer puts $15 or more on a MetroCard (new caed or add value), the TBT will automatically add 10 percent to the transaction amount. The media has focused on the free ride ("11 for 10"), but the customer receives 10 percent more value on their MetroCard for ANY purchase from $15 to $80. Some examples are: @ When a customer asks for a $15 MetroCard, the TBT will put $16.50 on the card ($15.00 plus $1.50 bonus free ride). When the card is encoded, the agent will see: Farecard Encoded. Value = $15.00 + $1.50 Bonus @ For a $30 purchase, the customer will get an extra $3.00, ot two free rides; and for $45, the customer will get an extra $4.50, or three free rides. @ When the customer puts money on a farecard that doesn't result in an even number of rides, they build up value toward the next ride. For example, an $18.00 purchase will get the customer a $19.80 card ($18.00 + $1.80 bonus), which gives them one free ride ($1.50) and 30 cents toward their next free ride. As long as the customer keeps refilling the MetroCard, the uneven amounts will eventually add up to more free rides. Customers won't see the "bonus" amount on the Token Booth Reader DURING the transaction. The bonus will show up the very next time they swipe the card at the booth reader or on the MetroCard Reader in the station. Reduced-fare customers will also get the 10 percent bonus, whenever they put $15 or more on their Reduced-Fare MetroCard. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Pre-Valued $15 Farecards Beginning January 1st, customers who purchase pre-valued $15 MetroCards (either from the booth or outside merchants) will also get the 10 percent bonus. Farecards purchased for $15 will contain $16.50 in value. Within the booth, these cards are still counted as $15 when making calculations for fare and remittance reports. The bonus pre-valued $15.00 cards MUST NOT be sold before January 1st, as they will NOT work in turnstiles nor in bus fareboxes until that time. New wrappers on these cards clearly indicate: "Good on or after January 1, 1998" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Maintainers Verifying Fare Tables in Station Equipment The AFC area controller (the main computer) sent computerized information on the bonus policy down to all station equipment (TBTs and turnstiles) at the beginning of December. This information is called a "fare table." The new fare table will remain inactive until January 1st. From December 8th, through December 30th, revenue maintainers will visit all fare control areas to confirm that the new fare table has been properly downloaded to each piece of equipment. The TBT does not have to be shut down for this procedure. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Customer Outreach Program In addition to television, radio, and newspaper advertising, NYC Transit is launching a customer outreach program to educate our customers about the changes in fare policy. A take-one labeled "Free Rides !" is available at all stations and on buses to address customer questions. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Anticipating Problems Although there has been extensive testing of the bonus function, the information being downloaded into station controllers and turnstiles is very complex. As with any large change, we anticipate that there may be some problems. Beyond answering customers' questions, Stations employees will be identifying and reporting any problems as they occur. Keep in mind that during the first week of this new policy, as we and our customers grow accustomed to the changes, we should be patient with those who have problems. IMPORTANT As always, station agents and supervisors are the true "eyes and ears" of NYC Transit. If you think there is ANY type of AFC problem at your location, quickly put together as much information as possible (for example, transfer problem at the turnstiles, customers coming from a specific bus route, etc.). IMMEDIATELY FOLLOW UP WITH A TROUBLE CALL TO STATION COMMAND. AFC equipment must be checked regularly. Problems, such as TBT outages; incorrect TBT clocks; locked keyboards; etc., must be reported IMMEDIATELY TO STATION COMMAND. In addition to the field personnel assigned to fare control areas, extra help has been assigned to Station Command. Additionally, an inter-departmental response team will be on call 24 hours a day from December 31st through January 2nd.

Thread title: Wheel flange to Rail clearance (repost) (761544)
Started on Mon Jan 12 11:06:09 1998, by Timothy Speer

Subject: Wheel flange to Rail clearance (repost)
Message Number: 761544
Posted by: Timothy Speer
Date: Mon Jan 12 11:06:09 1998

How close are the flanges of train wheels supposed to be to the inner edge of the rails? I assume it is different on a straightaway as opposed to on a curve, but I'd like some idea what the official tolerances are. Is it the same for all rail systems? ...or is it different on LRV systems, for example?
- Subject: Re: Wheel flange to Rail clearance (repost)
- Message Number: 761799
- Posted by: Gary Jacobi
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:34:35 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]Wheel flange to Rail clearance (repost) posted by Timothy Speer on January 05, 1998 at 10:39:32: It doesn't look like you are going to get an answer to this question from this source, so let me try to point you in another direction. The clearance you refer to is not measured directly, but is controlled by two other measurements, the wheel guage and the track guage. As you suspected, the track guage is widened on tight curves. There are formulas or tables for this in various publications, such as the AREA spec book.
  - Subject: Re: Wheel flange to Rail clearance (repost)
  - Message Number: 761800
  - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:34:37 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]Wheel flange to Rail clearance (repost) posted by Timothy Speer on January 05, 1998 at 10:39:32: It doesn't look like you are going to get an answer to this question from this source, so let me try to point you in another direction. The clearance you refer to is not measured directly, but is controlled by two other measurements, the wheel guage and the track guage. As you suspected, the track guage is widened on tight curves. There are formulas or tables for this in various publications, such as the AREA spec book.

Thread title: Tech Bids Due Today (?) (761551)
Started on Mon Jan 12 11:06:31 1998, by Nick

Subject: Tech Bids Due Today (?)
Message Number: 761551
Posted by: Nick
Date: Mon Jan 12 11:06:31 1998

Last week someone posted that the bids for building the r142s and r143s were due today. If this is true, which companies put in bids? Did both Kawasaki and Bombardier put in bids, since they built the r110s?-Nick

Thread title: Update re 18th Street IRT station entrance (761558)
Started on Mon Jan 12 11:06:47 1998, by Peter Rosa

Subject: Update re 18th Street IRT station entrance
Message Number: 761558
Posted by: Peter Rosa
Date: Mon Jan 12 11:06:47 1998

Today at lunch I looked around for any traces of entrances to the abandoned 18th Street station on the Lexington Avenue line. These entrances had been a topic of discussion here a couple of weeks ago. Anyway, there is a metal trap door, similar to that used for emergency and service access, in the sidewalk on the SE corner of 18th Street and Park Avenue South. One of the postings had noted that this entrance was used during the response to the 1991 derailment of a 6 train near the old station. This trap door might have been placed over a stairway entrance, although the area it covers is a good deal smaller than the opening required for a stairway entrance. Other than this trap door, there are no signs at all of any station entrances. The sidewalk on the SW corner of the intersection is sort of a patchwork. It looks to have been been re-cemented at different times, none of them recently. Both the NW and NE sidewalks appear to have been redone more recently, and it's possible that the old entrances were covered over in the process (as with one of the past re-cementings of the SW sidewalk). All in all, the TA was quite thorough in obliterating any above-ground traces of this station.

Thread title: subway crime (761560)
Started on Mon Jan 12 11:06:55 1998, by S. Warnes

Subject: subway crime
Message Number: 761560
Posted by: S. Warnes
Date: Mon Jan 12 11:06:55 1998

HELP! I'm doing a paper regarding subway crime, and am in need of some statistics. I'm particularly looking for numbers regarding indecent exposure and the like. Thanks!

Thread title: Re: 4 track lines in Boston? (761563)
Started on Mon Jan 12 11:07:02 1998, by Carl M. Rabbin

Subject: Re: 4 track lines in Boston?
Message Number: 761563
Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
Date: Mon Jan 12 11:07:02 1998

In Reply to: [7]Re: Broad Street and other 4 track lines posted by FRED WELLMAN on January 03, 1998 at 11:11:06: Is it a commuter or freight railroad track?
- Subject: Re: 4 track lines in Boston?
- Message Number: 761565
- Posted by: Timothy Speer
- Date: Mon Jan 12 11:07:07 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Re: 4 track lines in Boston? posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 05, 1998 at 15:34:10: I don't get out to the North end of the Orange Line very often, but I thought it was 2 lines of subway (open cut) and 2 lines of commuter, which is not real 4-line track in my book. On my end of the Orange Line, it's 2 lines of subway (open cut) and 4 lines of commuter rail trains.
  - Subject: Re: 4 track lines in Boston?
  - Message Number: 761570
  - Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
  - Date: Mon Jan 12 11:07:26 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: 4 track lines in Boston? posted by Timothy Speer on January 05, 1998 at 16:19:49: I agree. Two lines of Subway + two lines of Commuter rail does not equal a 4-track line.
    - Subject: Re: 4 track lines in Boston?
    - Message Number: 761667
    - Posted by: FRED WELLMAN
    - Date: Mon Jan 12 14:11:16 1998
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: 4 track lines in Boston? posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 05, 1998 at 17:22:13: Around 1981-83 the federal goverment insisted the T use the express lines on the Orange line north or repay the cost of construction. What happened after that I have no idea. Although I lived in Boston for 5 years I never took the Orange line past Charleston.

Thread title: Re: Metro Mess/Metro Litter (761564)
Started on Mon Jan 12 11:07:05 1998, by ed

Subject: Re: Metro Mess/Metro Litter
Message Number: 761564
Posted by: ed
Date: Mon Jan 12 11:07:05 1998

In Reply to: [7]Metro Mess posted by George on January 04, 1998 at 11:37:17: Am I the only one who thinks that the Metrocard is some big joke? Speaking of Metro Messes, did they ever predict Metrocard litter -- the cards themselves and their wrappers -- all over the place. The token seems to have been the ultimate recyclable

Thread title: Steinway Street (was Re: Update re 18th Street IRT station entrance) (761568)
Started on Mon Jan 12 11:07:16 1998, by Adam

Subject: Steinway Street (was Re: Update re 18th Street IRT station entrance)
Message Number: 761568
Posted by: Adam
Date: Mon Jan 12 11:07:16 1998

In Reply to: [8]Update re 18th Street IRT station entrance posted by Peter Rosa on January 05, 1998 at 15:03:59: Talking about station entrances being closed, something strange occured with a station entrance at Steinway Street on the G and R lines. There is an entrance on Steinway Street, right off of 34th Ave. in front of the Salvation Army thrift store. About a year ago, the entrance was closed and there were boards covering it from the street level. Then, for a long time the entire area, including the fascade of the Salvation Army was covered in a thick plastic covering. Just recently, a new entrance reopened there but it looks strange. It looks like it is temporary, or at least not finished yet. There is a metal covering along the outside like most underground entrances, but wooden planks are holding the sides up across the middle. I'm just wondering if anyone knows what is going on with this project, because I have no idea. The entrance didn't even look like it needed work before they closed it.
- Subject: Re: Steinway Street (was Re: Update re 18th Street IRT station entrance)
- Message Number: 761664
- Posted by: Al
- Date: Mon Jan 12 14:11:08 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]Steinway Street (was Re: Update re 18th Street IRT station entrance) posted by Adam on January 05, 1998 at 17:14:22: About that entrance in front of the Salvation Army. The entrance I believe was closed off about a year ago, because of a truck accident that ocurred there. I believe a truck crashed into the Salvation Army Thrift Store in what I think was the month of February. Noone was hurt because it happened early in the morning (middle of the night). I not positive about this info.

Thread title: Those Tokens at the Top of the Page (761569)
Started on Mon Jan 12 11:07:23 1998, by Carl M. Rabbin

Subject: Those Tokens at the Top of the Page
Message Number: 761569
Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
Date: Mon Jan 12 11:07:23 1998

It just hit me when I printed out a page listing a book title that the tokens on the top of the page are real tokens. I think that the "S" is a Philadelphia Student Token, the "A" is actually a triangular old Philadelphia token (or is it Chicago or Toronto?), and the "Y" is NYC. Does anybody know what the 6 tokens really are? I assume someone in Subway.org knows, of course....
- Subject: Re: Those Tokens at the Top of the Page
- Message Number: 761575
- Posted by: Joshua Caesar
- Date: Mon Jan 12 11:07:45 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Those Tokens at the Top of the Page posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 05, 1998 at 17:18:52: Are they really all real tokens? I thought it was a graphic made by David Pirman, I doubt that tokens could be found from different cities with all of the letters in s-u-b-w-a-y, and be of the same size and general color. Joshua Caesar studlyjc@aol.com
  - Subject: Re: Those Tokens at the Top of the Page
  - Message Number: 761583
  - Posted by: David Pirmann
  - Date: Mon Jan 12 11:08:21 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Those Tokens at the Top of the Page posted by Joshua Caesar on January 05, 1998 at 19:06:20: I didn't make the graphic, Jason DeCesare did. Don't think he reads this board. You can mail him at miles@nycsubway.org and he'll explain how he did it.
    - Subject: Re: Those Tokens at the Top of the Page
    - Message Number: 761595
    - Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
    - Date: Mon Jan 12 11:08:57 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: Those Tokens at the Top of the Page posted by David Pirmann on January 05, 1998 at 21:34:16: The Y is real, the rest are strategically rearranged. -Hank
      - Subject: Re: Those Tokens at the Top of the Page
      - Message Number: 761597
      - Posted by: Jason R. DeCesare
      - Date: Mon Jan 12 11:09:01 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Those Tokens at the Top of the Page posted by Hank Eisenstein on January 05, 1998 at 23:37:06: Hank wrote: > The Y is real, the rest are strategically rearranged. Nope, they are all real tokens, the "Y" is the only NYC token in the word. The tokens are all the same size and the image was created by putting the tokens in a row on the bed of the scanner. The tokens were found at flea markets and coin shops and were all about 25� or so each. The NYC old subway token was purchaced at the transit museum gift shop. Here is the rundown of what is what (as best as I can recall): S - San Diego Electric Railway U - Connecticut Company (I think it was supposed to be a "C" though) b - Poughkeepsie & Wappingers Falls Railway (inverted & reversed "P") W - Capital Transit (DC) or Wilmington & Philadelphia Tr. Co. A - Ambridge Motor Coach Co. Y - 1953 NYCTA "cut Y" token I have no idea about the history of the tokens (save for the NYC one), I just got them because I thought they were neat! -Jason
        
        Subject: Re: Those Tokens at the Top of the Page
        Message Number: 761598
        Posted by: Jason R. DeCesare
        Date: Mon Jan 12 14:07:16 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Those Tokens at the Top of the Page posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 05, 1998 at 17:18:52: Bzzt, wrong. I should know, since I did the token graphic! Here is the rundown of what is what (as best as I can recall): S - San Diego Electric Railway U - Connecticut Company (I think it was supposed to be a "C" though) b - Poughkeepsie & Wappingers Falls Railway (inverted & reversed "P") W - Capital Transit (DC) or Wilmington & Philadelphia Tr. Co. A - Ambridge Motor Coach Co. Y - 1953 NYCTA "cut Y" token As for the names and histories of the various tokens and their companies, I have no idea, save for the NYCTA and just a bit of one for the Connecticut Company. -Jason
        
        Subject: Re: Those Tokens at the Top of the Page
        Message Number: 761601
        Posted by: Jason R. DeCesare
        Date: Mon Jan 12 14:07:26 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Those Tokens at the Top of the Page posted by Joshua Caesar on January 05, 1998 at 19:06:20: All of the tokens are from different cities, are either silver or brass in color, and are all the same size. The tokens also happen to be the same size as the current CTA and TTC tokens as well as the 1953 NYCTA "cut Y" token. I have the original image on a zip disk somewhere. Although you can't see it in the image, all the tokens are "GOOD FOR ONE FARE" side up. -Jason
        
        Subject: Re: Those Tokens at the Top of the Page
        Message Number: 761609
        Posted by: Charles Fiori
        Date: Mon Jan 12 14:07:40 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Those Tokens at the Top of the Page posted by Jason R. DeCesare on January 05, 1998 at 23:59:05: 'bout all I can help with is Ambridge. It is a town just outside of Pittsburgh. Used to date a girl from there.
        
        Subject: Re: Those Tokens at the Top of the Page
        Message Number: 761613
        Posted by: David Pirmann
        Date: Mon Jan 12 14:07:48 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Those Tokens at the Top of the Page posted by Jason R. DeCesare on January 06, 1998 at 00:11:26: Here's a big version, in which you can see the "Good for one fare" stuff... [INLINE] --Dave
        
        Subject: Re: Those Tokens at the Top of the Page
        Message Number: 761645
        Posted by: Dan Lawrence
        Date: Mon Jan 12 14:09:50 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Those Tokens at the Top of the Page posted by Jason R. DeCesare on January 05, 1998 at 23:59:05: The Connecticut Company token did have a "C" in the center, although it was mistaken for a "U" many times. In fact, in Baltimore the local transit company continued to use the tokens from the previous operator, the United Railways and Electric Company. UR&E had 16 million tokens minted between 1917 and 1922 and they stayed in use until this very day. In fact the MTA had new small tokens minted that said "Mass Transit Administration" on the obverse in 1992. The new Light Rail ticket machines refused the URE tokens, so the new ones were obtained. In July of 1992 the local MTA mechanics modified the ticket machines and the URE tokens (Which the MTA estimates about 9 million are still in use) promptly went back in service. The MTA tokens went into storage and very few ever got into circulation. Tokens are used very little today, as day, weekly and monthly passes acount for almost 93% of fares.
        
        Subject: Re: Those Tokens at the Top of the Page
        Message Number: 761646
        Posted by: Dan Lawrence
        Date: Mon Jan 12 14:09:52 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Those Tokens at the Top of the Page posted by Dan Lawrence on January 06, 1998 at 17:23:21: I forgot to add that when tokens were widely used, ConnCo. tokens used to show up in our fareboxes (Johnson Type D regestering fareboxes) every once in a while. Very few ever were turned in, as the fnas and railfan operators (yes, we had them in the 40's, 50's and early 60's) usually replace them with on of there own URE tokens. The fareboxes didn't care, as Johnson Type D's sort and register coins/tokens by size.

Thread title: Condos (761572)
Started on Mon Jan 12 11:07:32 1998, by John

Subject: Condos
Message Number: 761572
Posted by: John
Date: Mon Jan 12 11:07:32 1998

I heard of some place under Grand Central Terminal called the "Condos." Some say it is a caven, but I don't think so. Anyone know what it really is? Ans why is it called the condos? How big is it? It there any place I can visit online to read more about it in detail?
- Subject: Condos
- Message Number: 761573
- Posted by: John
- Date: Mon Jan 12 11:07:37 1998
  
  I heard of some place under Grand Central Terminal called the "Condos." Some say it is a caven, but I don't think so. Anyone know what it really is? Ans why is it called the condos? How big is it? It there any place I can visit online to read more about it in detail?

Thread title: Toekn Booth Clerks (was :Re: Metro Mess) (761576)
Started on Mon Jan 12 11:07:52 1998, by subway-buff

Subject: Toekn Booth Clerks (was :Re: Metro Mess)
Message Number: 761576
Posted by: subway-buff
Date: Mon Jan 12 11:07:52 1998

In Reply to: [8]Re: Metro Mess posted by Adam on January 05, 1998 at 17:05:30: Let's say you put in machines- someone has to "feed" the machines, someone has to help get stuck credit cards, debit cards, metrocards out of the machine. Some one has to tell the passengers "how do you get to Coney Island?" I took the test for station agent, was interviewed and am awaiting a response. The system has 468 (maybe more, maybe less!!) stations. Now, some of these stations have no crossovers or cross unders such as Marcy (J), 723 and B'Way, 86 and Lex, Most stations on the 2 to Flatbush. Let just say for argument there are 50 such stops- now we are up to 518 stations. Next- one machine wont serve busy stations like Times Square, Grand Central etc. Lets say you have 50 stations needing 4 machines that now makes 718 machines- I think I read somewhere where they would need close to 1000 machines. These machines have not even been devloped yet!! Even MARTA which is automated has some human clerks and each station has an attendant and MARTA (save for Five Points) has one exit per station from the mezzanine. Next- look at the ATMs- there are still people who want to use a human teller. What I read (I dont remember where) is that they will reduce the number through attrition and they will change the duties to station customer service agent and will include some light maintenance such as stocking the machines(Maybe not collecting the money). Give Transit a break. Current and future(I can hope!) employees are not all bad-many are on this site!! If fare beating is bad now think what will happen when no one is there!!Sure some are bad but mosdt are good and are an assett to NYC and transit.
- Subject: Re: Toekn Booth Clerks (was :Re: Metro Mess)
- Message Number: 761590
- Posted by: Brian
- Date: Mon Jan 12 11:08:47 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Toekn Booth Clerks (was :Re: Metro Mess) posted by subway-buff on January 05, 1998 at 19:57:24: I do not make a habit of coming right back at a comment. I guess your right the truth is there is much to do and machines would probrably provide the same jobs in a different mannor. Hey it may also enable the clerk to finally be free enough to be out of the booth where they can be of a greater help I get ya. Thanks Brian

Thread title: Commuter rail Signals - A correction (761577)
Started on Mon Jan 12 11:07:56 1998, by Steve

Subject: Commuter rail Signals - A correction
Message Number: 761577
Posted by: Steve
Date: Mon Jan 12 11:07:56 1998

In Reply to: [8]commter rail line signals posted by subway-buff on December 31, 1997 at 18:52:40: I rechecked the LIRR rules and found that they do not list the Flashing Approach signal. I suspect that it is he same for NJT. The signal is AMTRAKs and it is used by the LIRR & NJT only when operating in AMTRAK territory. Simply put the APPROACH indication means proceed at restricted speed (45 MPH) and be prepared to stop at the next signal. The Flashing Approach, called ADVANCED APPROACH is a bit less restrictive. It tells the engineer to proceed at restricted speed (45 mph) and be prepared to stop at the 2nd signal. AMTRAK uses this additional aspect because their equipment lacks Automatic Speed Control. LIRR and NJT have it thus they don't need the additional aspect. Sorry for any confusion my earlier post might have caused...
- Subject: Re: Commuter rail Signals - A correction
- Message Number: 761579
- Posted by: Todd Glickman
- Date: Mon Jan 12 11:08:03 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Commuter rail Signals - A correction posted by Steve on January 05, 1998 at 20:00:29: A good primer on railroad signals can be found at [9]this junction . -Todd

Thread title: BMT Semephore Signals (761578)
Started on Mon Jan 12 11:08:01 1998, by Steve

Subject: BMT Semephore Signals
Message Number: 761578
Posted by: Steve
Date: Mon Jan 12 11:08:01 1998

In the very early years and through the 40s (At Least) the IRT abs BRT/BMT used a number of semephore signals. As far as I know, the last existing one is at the Stillwell Station at the extreme South end of the B line. With the reconstruction of Stillwell station starting soon, I doubt that it will be there too much longer. The 1944 TA Rule book had a very comprehensive listing of all the pre-WWII signal aspects and indications (in full color) including the semephores.
- Subject: Re: BMT Semephore Signals
- Message Number: 761588
- Posted by: Mark S Feinman
- Date: Mon Jan 12 11:08:43 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]BMT Semephore Signals posted by Steve on January 05, 1998 at 20:10:13: I think that semaphore signal is going to stay, even after Stillwell's reconstruction. The signal isn't in service - it's a dedication to people who worked over the years as signal maintainers. There's a plaque on the signal that indicates where it came from originally. --Mark
  - Subject: Re: BMT Semephore Signals
  - Message Number: 761594
  - Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
  - Date: Mon Jan 12 11:08:55 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: BMT Semephore Signals posted by Mark S Feinman on January 05, 1998 at 22:49:55: That signal is the last semaphore on the system, I believe it was removed from the Canarsie line, at 105st. -Hank

Thread title: New York Subway Line By Line: The Culver Line (761587)
Started on Mon Jan 12 11:08:40 1998, by Mark S Feinman

Subject: New York Subway Line By Line: The Culver Line
Message Number: 761587
Posted by: Mark S Feinman
Date: Mon Jan 12 11:08:40 1998

Hi all .... This (long) post contains a "final draft" of the first of what I hope to be many additions to the NYC Subway Resources site in the "New York Subway Line by Line" section Dave wants to build. This is the first installment covering the Culver Line. I hope to do the Sea Beach and West End Lines next. I thought I'd post it here first to get your feedback before I "release" it to Dave for inclusion in this section (and Dave has to add the photos he wants to the section as well). See... there really are voluteers out here! Comments welcome and encouraged. (Sorry if the formatting isn't perfect here - I just did a simple copy/past operation; the original formats MUCH better and I used the "Brighton Line" as a template). General History The Culver Line began service on June 19th, 1875 as a steam railroad called the Prospect Park and Coney Island between Prospect Park (9th Ave and 20th Street) and Gravesend Avenue and Neck Road. On July 27th of the same year, the steam line reached Cable's Hotel (later known as the Ocean View) in the West Brighton section of Coney Island at Culver Terminal. (Culver Terminal is the predecessor to today's Stillwell Avenue; its original location was at Surf Avenue and West 5th Street approximately where the Brightwater Towers stand today. Culver Terminal was a surface terminal adjacent to a rollercoaster.) In 1879, the railroad leased the New York and Coney Island Railroad, and service began between Culver Terminal and Norton's Point, the very western most tip of Coney Island. Connections to steamboats to/from New York City were made at Norton's Point. The Long Island Railroad acquired a majority interest in the PP&CI in 1893, which continued into 1923 when the Brooklyn Rapid Transit Co was reorganized into the Brooklyn-Manhattan Transit Co. The BRT leased the PP&CI in 1893 and operated it directly until 1912, when control was passed to the South Brooklyn Railway. As part of the creation of the BMT, the South Brooklyn Railway became a BMT subsidiary, and in fact had a freight operation beneath the Culver Elevated that ran into the 1980s. The PP&CI was electrified in 1899. LIRR steam passenger service ended and some of the BRT surface lines started using the PP&CI for through service to Coney Island. In 1919, the Culver Elevated was built over the South Brooklyn ROW (between 36th and 37th Streets from approximately 10th Ave to McDonald Ave) and over McDonald Avenue from approximately Ditmas Ave to Kings Highway, and then later to Avenue X. By 1920, this elevated structure was extended to the present-day connection with the Brighton Line at West 8th Street. Subway service via 4th Avenue (Brooklyn) to Chambers St began in May, 1931. On October 30th, 1954, the portion of the Culver El south of Ditmas Ave was transferred to the IND division, eliminating the connection of BMT trains from 9th Avenue. IND "D" trains began running from 205th St and the Grand Boulevard & Concourse to Coney Island via 6th Avenue (Manhattan) and the IND South Brooklyn Line through Smith/9th Streets. The BMT Division continued service between Ditmas Ave and Chambers Street; in 1959, this service was cut back to a shuttle between Ditmas Avenue and 9th Avenue using the Coney Island-bound track. The Ditmas Ave station was "enhanced" with a 4th track on the Coney Island-bound side to allow the Shuttle to terminate with a cross-platform transfer to Coney Island bound D (and later, F) trains. The shuttle ran until May 11th, 1975 and was replaced with free transfers to the B-35 bus. The structure between Ditmas Ave and 9th Avenue was torn down in the late 1980's and the free transfer to the B-35 bus was eliminated in the early '90s. (However, with MetroCard Gold, this free transfer is once again available). The back of the southbound Ditmas Ave canopy was "filled in" with the MTA-standard steel wall and only a glimpse at the El structure from the front, rear or below the station would yield a clue that a subway train once stopped there. The South Brooklyn ROW is also long gone; while some evidence of the ROW still exists in the avenues that cross it (uncovered trolley tracks, faded RR crossing paint), the ROW is now giving way to rows of new townhouses and condos along 36th St. Some of the ROW is used by an auto-salvage company and a gas station. The concrete ramp from the lower level of 9th Avenue still remains; however the tracks are long gone. On November 26th, 1967, as part of the opening of the Chrystie Street connection, D service was rerouted in Brooklyn over the Manhattan Bridge and down the Brighton Line. F service replaced D service between West 4th St, Manhattan and Coney Island via Smith/9th Street and the Culver El. The name "Culver" persists to this day; the R-46s indicate that the F train is a "Culver Local / Queens Express". Service patterns over this stretch of El varied through the years; however, a constant that ran into the 1980s was that trains terminating at Kings highway ran local on the Culver El during rush hours and trains terminating at Coney Island ran express between 18th Ave and Kings Highway during rush hours. Until a few years ago, there was a double crossover just south of Kings Highway enabling trains from Coney Island to switch to express; this switch was removed sometime in the early '90s. All F trains now run local on the Culver El and none terminate at Kings Highway (normally). Beneath the Culver El, PCC cars ran on McDonald Ave until October 31st, 1956. The South Brooklyn Railway continuted freight operations along the line into the '70s. These trolley tracks were used to deliver new subway car equipment to the Coney Island Yards through and including the R-44 order. In the early '80s, McDonald Ave was reconstructed with a new concrete base, yet the trolley tracks of the South Brooklyn Railway remained intact. In the late-80s, the trolley tracks were paved over and the connection to the Bay Ridge Line was severed. Andrew R. Culver (1832 - 1906), the man for whom the line was named, wanted to create a one seat ride from downtown Brooklyn to Coney Island and founded the PP&CI. He had plans to extend his stream railroad to downtown Brooklyn but ended up selling the PP&CI to the LIRR because of poor health. While Culver never had the opportunity to see his fream become a reality, the 5th Avenue elevated finally achieved this goal in the mid-1890s using the Culver Line. Photos place photos here Timeline 1878 19 June: Opened as the Prospect Park and Coney Island Railroad 1878 27 June: Extended to Coney Island 1879: Leased New York and Coney Island RR, service to Norton's Point 1893: LIRR ownership begins; BRT leases line from LIRR. 1899: Electrification of surface route 1900: Through service to Coney Island from 5th Ave El begins. 1912: Control transferred to South Brooklyn Railway. 1917 30 May: Ocean Parkway-West 8th St. rebuild opens (BRT) 1919 16 Mar: Culver El built to Kings Highway from 9th Avenue. 1919 10 May: Extended to Ave X from Kings Highway. 1919 29 May: West 8th St.-Stillwell Avenue upper level rebuild opens (BRT) 1920 1 May: El extended to Brighton Line at West 8th Street. 1923: BRT reorganized into BMT. LIRR ownership ends. 1931 May: Service to Chambers Street via 4th Ave (Brooklyn) subway. 1954 30 October: IND connection to Ditmas Ave from Church Ave opens; connection to 9th Avenue severed. D train begins service from The Bronx. Shutle trains run between Ditmas Ave and 9th Avenue. 1967 26 November: Chrystie Street connection opens. F trains replace D trains on Culver El. 1975 11 May: Culver Shuttle service discontinued at 12:01am. Mid-1980s: Shuttle El structure torn down. Stations Culver Shuttle 13th Avenue, opened 3/16/1919, closed 5/11/1975 Ft Hamilton Parkway, opened 3/16/1919, closed 5/11/1975 9th Avenue (lower level), opened 9/15/1916, closed 5/11/1975. Culver Elevated Ditmas Ave, 11/30/1954 18th Avenue, 3/16/1919 Avenue I, 3/16/1919 22nd Ave / Bay Parkway, renamed to Bay Parkway, opened 3/16/1919 Avenue N, 3/16/1919 Avenue P, 3/16/1919 Kings Highway, 3/16/1919 Avenue U, 5/10/1919 Avenue X, 5/10/1919 Van Sicklen, renamed Neptune Ave / Van Sicklen, renamed Neptune Ave, 5/1/1920 West 8th Street (lower level), (6/13/1919 Stillwell Ave-Coney Island, 6/13/1919 Construction The structure from 9th Avenue is a short tunnel that now leads out into the 36th St yard as a wye enabling trains to reverse into the yard. The former BMT ramp to the Culver Elevated is a concrete structure, but not much can be seen given its current use as a dumping area for an auto-salvage operation. The El from Ft Hamilton Pkwy to Ditmas Ave was torn down in the 1980s but was a typical BMT era 3-track El with side platforms and a center express track. Ditmas Ave is the standard 3-track station with side platforms. The southbound platform used to be the termius for the Culver Shuttle, which terminated on the outermost track, giving the platform the feel of an island platform. The back of this platform used to be open until the early '90s, when the canopy was rehabilitated and the steel walls erected. Looking up from the street, evidence of where this shuttle once stopped can be seen. 18th Avenue and Kings Highway have center-island express platforms between the single center express track and the outer local tracks. Neptune Avenue is an island platform. All other stations are local-only stations with side platforms. Stillwell Avenue has center island platforms, one each for B (West End) approachng from the north, F (Culver) and D (Brighton) approaching from the east, and N (Sea Beach) trains approaching from the north. What Makes the Culver Line Interesting? The stretch of the Culver Line between Neptune Avenue and Avenue X provides a god view of the Coney Island yards. The "museum fleet" is usually stored on the tracks closest to the Culver Line. In addition, some cars ready for scrapping are usually stored on the short tracks adjacent to Shell Road, and these cars can usually be seen very well from the Coney Island-bound Ave X platform. The approach from Neptune Avenue into West 8th Street and Stillwell Avenue is also fun to watch, except that all the R-46s have full-width cabs and most of the time, they are covered with the back of an adversidement to prevent viewing through the front door. Photo opportunities abound from Avenue X to Stillwell Avenue, as well as along Bay Parkway, just southwest of the Bay Parkway station. A panoramic view is possible at this location because of the unobsturucted visibility in the middle of Washington Cemetary! --Mark
- Subject: Re: New York Subway Line By Line: The Culver Line
- Message Number: 761599
- Posted by: david vartanoff
- Date: Mon Jan 12 14:07:19 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]New York Subway Line By Line: The Culver Line posted by Mark S Feinman on January 05, 1998 at 22:46:47: nice product, do you have dates for station designation changes? btw it is from the D era on the Culver that Dylan penned "...the all night girls and their escapades out on the Deee train..."
  - Subject: Re: New York Subway Line By Line: The Culver Line
  - Message Number: 761600
  - Posted by: david vartanoff
  - Date: Mon Jan 12 14:07:24 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]New York Subway Line By Line: The Culver Line posted by Mark S Feinman on January 05, 1998 at 22:46:47: nice product, do you have dates for station designation changes? btw it is from the D era on the Culver that Dylan penned "...the all night girls and their escapades out on the Deee train..."
    - Subject: Re: New York Subway Line By Line: The Culver Line
    - Message Number: 761617
    - Posted by: Ed Sachs
    - Date: Mon Jan 12 14:07:57 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]New York Subway Line By Line: The Culver Line posted by Mark S Feinman on January 05, 1998 at 22:46:47: You might want to add something about the service in the 1930s jointly between 5th Ave. El and Subway. In non-rush hours, the El trains terminated at 9th Ave. and the Subway trains ran to Coney Island. In rush hours, the El trains ran local to Coney Island, and the Subway trains ran only to Kings Highway (shortage of steel subway cars). The rush hour subway trains ran local in the peak direction (inbound AM, outboud PM), and in the off-peak direction, ran non-stop from Kings Highway to 9th Ave. via the express track. After the 5th Ave. El was torn down in 1940, rush hour subway trains still terminated at Kings Highway, and local/shuttle service using wooden El cars ran rush hours from 9th Ave. to Coney Island. However, during this period, the Subway trains ran express in the peak direction, stopping at 18th Ave., and local in the off-peak direction. This sevice continued until the D-train was through routed in 1954.
      - Subject: Re: New York Subway Line By Line: The Culver Line
      - Message Number: 761621
      - Posted by: John Stewart
      - Date: Mon Jan 12 14:08:10 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]New York Subway Line By Line: The Culver Line posted by Mark S Feinman on January 05, 1998 at 22:46:47: Excellent work! You did a fantasic job. I've always found the history of the Brooklyn lines fascinating, due to the fact that many of them started as independent railroads and evolved through mergers, acquisitions, etc., until they finally were incorporated into the New York system. Looking forward to your next installment!
        
        Subject: Re: New York Subway Line By Line: The Culver Line
        Message Number: 761625
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Mon Jan 12 14:08:27 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: New York Subway Line By Line: The Culver Line posted by John Stewart on January 06, 1998 at 11:56:36: Thank you! Actually, the 4 south Brooklyn lines (Brighton, West End, Sea Beach and Culver) all started out with something in common: - they were privately owned - their southern terminus was generally a hotel on Coney Island, in some cases, built by the individual line owner to help provide a passenger base for the line. --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: New York Subway Line By Line: The Culver Line
        Message Number: 761626
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Mon Jan 12 14:08:30 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: New York Subway Line By Line: The Culver Line posted by Ed Sachs on January 06, 1998 at 10:28:40: Ed, this is just the kind of stuff I was looking for! Thank you - I will add this info to the document. --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: New York Subway Line By Line: The Culver Line
        Message Number: 761627
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Mon Jan 12 14:08:36 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: New York Subway Line By Line: The Culver Line posted by david vartanoff on January 06, 1998 at 00:10:09: I don't have exact dates yet; I need to go through my batch of older subway maps and try to isolate the changes. As to Dylan, I have no idea! :) --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: New York Subway Line By Line: The Culver Line
        Message Number: 761710
        Posted by: Dan Schwartz
        Date: Mon Jan 12 14:12:56 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]New York Subway Line By Line: The Culver Line posted by Mark S Feinman on January 05, 1998 at 22:46:47: Definitely well done. I hope to see it up there with the pictures soon. But it seems like there is just a bit too much emphasis on the various Brooklyn lines. I'd like to see a piece like this done for the Dyre Ave. line in the Bronx.
        
        Subject: Re: New York Subway Line By Line: The Culver Line
        Message Number: 761719
        Posted by: David Pirmann - web site host
        Date: Mon Jan 12 14:13:14 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: New York Subway Line By Line: The Culver Line posted by Dan Schwartz on January 08, 1998 at 14:17:36: Well, in the case of the Dyre line you might get your wish pretty soon, but if you want to volunteer, that would be great :-) -Dave
        
        Subject: Re: New York Subway Line By Line: The Culver Line
        Message Number: 761855
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:37:01 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: New York Subway Line By Line: The Culver Line posted by Dan Schwartz on January 08, 1998 at 14:17:36: As for the Brooklyn lines, well, I grew up in Brooklyn, and of all 3 divisions, I think the BRT/BMTs was the most colorful. I also have the info for these lines (I expect to follow up w/ Sea Beach and West End in the coming weeks) while I don't have it for others (at least not yet). Finally, these lines (and Brighton) were instrumental in the development of Brooklyn and Coney Island as a resort for the masses at the turn of the century. So I guess I don't see any Brooklyn bias here :) --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: New York Subway Line By Line: The Culver Line
        Message Number: 761871
        Posted by: Ed Ehrlich
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:37:46 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]New York Subway Line By Line: The Culver Line posted by Mark S Feinman on January 05, 1998 at 22:46:47: First of all, I think that Mark Feinman wrote a fascinating article on the Culver line. I don't know if the following is relevant, but when I was a kid I rememberd that a lot of Italian men would play Bocci under the Culver line in the area between 13th and 14th avenues. This was in the early 1960s. They used the railroad tracks there to set up the courts. I don't remember if the tracks were in use at the time or not. Ed Ehrlich Jerusalem, Israel
        
        Subject: Re: New York Subway Line By Line: The Culver Line
        Message Number: 761876
        Posted by: James A. Tesoriero
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:38:02 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]New York Subway Line By Line: The Culver Line posted by Mark S Feinman on January 05, 1998 at 22:46:47: A great job! I grew up 4 blocks from the Culver Line, known as the F, and it will always remain my first love. I only wanted the R-32's that the B, D, and N had in the 70's. Some potential additions: The El structure between Ditmas Ave. and 9th Avenue when over 36 - 37th Street was similiar to the Astoria line in Queens. The El structure between Ditmas Ave. and Ave X. is BMT/IRT El Structure seen on the West End, Jerome Avenue, and upper White Plains Road lines. The El structure between Ave. X and Neptune Ave. is two track El Structure that is unique to the entire system, with "X" type support girders instead of solid steel. It is similiar to the old Fulton El. Regarding the Dylan lyric, it comes from the song "Visions Of Johanna" from the album "Blonde On Blonde," released in 1966. Yes, the D train did run to Coney Island via the Culver, pre-Chrystie street. The lyric is: "And the all night girls they whisper of escapades out on the "D" train." He could have been referring to escapades at Coney Island. Keep up the good work. Jim
        
        Subject: Re: New York Subway Line By Line: The Culver Line
        Message Number: 761889
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:38:31 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: New York Subway Line By Line: The Culver Line posted by James A. Tesoriero on January 11, 1998 at 09:07:32: All notable elements, Jim, thank you. I remember when the F was mainly composed of R-1/9s, then the move to R-38s and slant R-40s. I really miss those days of the front window on the Culver Line. --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: New York Subway Line By Line: The Culver Line
        Message Number: 762006
        Posted by: Charles Fiori
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:43:31 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: New York Subway Line By Line: The Culver Line posted by Mark S Feinman on January 11, 1998 at 15:42:24: I can remember when the F only went as far as Bway-Lafayette or 34-6 Av. The R-38s were actually on the F by then as I can remember the signs depicting that routing. Those flip-dot pieces of ...just don't cut it.

Thread title: early trolley car accidents in NYC (761592)
Started on Mon Jan 12 11:08:51 1998, by fran miller

Subject: early trolley car accidents in NYC
Message Number: 761592
Posted by: fran miller
Date: Mon Jan 12 11:08:51 1998

My Grandfather died on december 16, 1913, as a result of injuries he received in an accident involving a trolley car on Fort George Hill in Manhattan, which I beleive took place on December 6, 1913. He was a conductor on the trolley line at that time. I am doing family research, and am very interested in learning more about this incident. Unfortuneatly all the older family members are now gone, so I will have to rely on the kindness of others to help me out. I am wondering if there is anyone in your network who might know of this accident, or be able to point me in the right direction to learn more about this. thank you for your help!! Fran Miller

Thread title: Septa Train Numbers-USENET--REGIONALS==Revisions?????? (761603)
Started on Mon Jan 12 14:07:29 1998, by Steve L

Subject: Septa Train Numbers-USENET--REGIONALS==Revisions??????
Message Number: 761603
Posted by: Steve L
Date: Mon Jan 12 14:07:29 1998

Does anyone have a revised list of train numbers ,,for the Regionals ,,,,earlier listing in the USENET X7XX ______ Yard=====Example Thank you ==STEVE

Thread title: New Mannattan Bus Garage ,,Route Assignments (761604)
Started on Mon Jan 12 14:07:31 1998, by Steve L

Subject: New Mannattan Bus Garage ,,Route Assignments
Message Number: 761604
Posted by: Steve L
Date: Mon Jan 12 14:07:31 1998

Looking for a list ,,of new Route Assignements,,reflecting the new Manhattan Westside Garage opening Route number Depot/Garage Thank you Steve
- Subject: Re: New Mannattan Bus Garage ,,Route Assignments
- Message Number: 761607
- Posted by: Fernando Perez
- Date: Mon Jan 12 14:07:37 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]New Mannattan Bus Garage ,,Route Assignments posted by Steve L on January 06, 1998 at 00:19:05: There is gonna be quite a few changes in March and April. Heres a partial listing of what I remember from a list passed around by some employees: Westside-M10,102,79,72,86,66,50/27 Amsterdam-M104,BX6,BX15,M100 Manhattanville-M2,3,4,5,101,103,60,98,35 Mother Clara Hale-M7,BX19,1,7,BX33 Hudson-M8,9,11,21,22,23,Q32,42,16/34,6,14 126St.-M15,31,116,96 This of course is subject to change again but this is probably what is going to happen or close to it.
  - Subject: Re: New Mannattan Bus Garage ,,Route Assignments
  - Message Number: 761633
  - Posted by: Steve L
  - Date: Mon Jan 12 14:09:03 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: New Mannattan Bus Garage ,,Route Assignments posted by Fernando Perez on January 06, 1998 at 01:14:22: thanks for the info ,are there any other boros involved in Bus Route Depot Assignemts ,,Changes thank you---steve
    - Subject: Re: New Mannattan Bus Garage ,,Route Assignments
    - Message Number: 761713
    - Posted by: trolleybus
    - Date: Mon Jan 12 14:13:01 1998
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: New Mannattan Bus Garage ,,Route Assignments posted by Steve L on January 06, 1998 at 14:07:06: what do you hear about staten island buses laying over at westside again. they are lowering the fare to 3.00 on 3/1/98 so i presume we will have a pick then.

Thread title: Re: New (sortof)Book Historical Maps (761608)
Started on Mon Jan 12 14:07:39 1998, by Fernando Perez

Subject: Re: New (sortof)Book Historical Maps
Message Number: 761608
Posted by: Fernando Perez
Date: Mon Jan 12 14:07:39 1998

In Reply to: [8]Re: New (sortof)Book posted by Adam on January 05, 1998 at 16:59:59: I bought the book Historical maps and I found it pretty interesting because each map folds out and is stored in an envelope with a brief descriptive history and story of the time period of the map. Its a must for history and nostalgia buffs.

Thread title: Platform overshoot in Boston (761610)
Started on Mon Jan 12 14:07:42 1998, by Timothy Speer

Subject: Platform overshoot in Boston
Message Number: 761610
Posted by: Timothy Speer
Date: Mon Jan 12 14:07:42 1998

This morning, the Northbound 0632 out of Forest Hills (Orange Line) overshot the Green Street platform by about 75 feet, and stopped abruptly, BIE. The motorman reset the brakes, gave a quick blast of the whistle, and backed up. Is this what he/she should have done?
- Subject: Re: Platform overshoot in Boston
- Message Number: 761620
- Posted by: Lou from Brooklyn
- Date: Mon Jan 12 14:08:07 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]Platform overshoot in Boston posted by Timothy Speer on January 06, 1998 at 08:22:44: I hope he checked with the conductor on the radio before to see that there wasn't anything behind him, unless he has a view from the cab .... Seriously, I don't know your Rules of the Road.
  - Subject: Re: Platform overshoot in Boston
  - Message Number: 761623
  - Posted by: Todd Glickman
  - Date: Mon Jan 12 14:08:17 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]Platform overshoot in Boston posted by Timothy Speer on January 06, 1998 at 08:22:44: I believe the operator must clear the reverse move with Central Control first. This is funny, because I rode the Orange Line today from North Station to State, and we went BIE three times between stations. Must be a Bad Karma Day on the Orange Line!! Todd

Thread title: Year 2000-To David Pirmann (761616)
Started on Mon Jan 12 14:07:54 1998, by Charles Fiori

Subject: Year 2000-To David Pirmann
Message Number: 761616
Posted by: Charles Fiori
Date: Mon Jan 12 14:07:54 1998

Maybe this is a harbinger of the Year 2000 problem, but have you noticed that when using the "View by Date", all the Jan. postings become Feb. postings? Dates on the "View by Thread" page are OK.
- Subject: Re: Year 2000-To David Pirmann
- Message Number: 761619
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Mon Jan 12 14:08:04 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Year 2000-To David Pirmann posted by Charles Fiori on January 06, 1998 at 09:35:31: What? looks fine to me! :-) Seriously, it should be fixed now. Thanks. -Dave

Thread title: Chicago fare agents (was: Re: Toekn Booth Clerks) (761618)
Started on Mon Jan 12 14:08:01 1998, by John B. Bredin

Subject: Chicago fare agents (was: Re: Toekn Booth Clerks)
Message Number: 761618
Posted by: John B. Bredin
Date: Mon Jan 12 14:08:01 1998

In Reply to: [8]Re: Toekn Booth Clerks (was :Re: Metro Mess) posted by Brian on January 05, 1998 at 23:01:20: Here in Chicago, the CTA got rid of any paying of fares -- token or cash -- to human beings. We have a "Transit Card" system, where you buy and recharge the card yourself from machines in every station. There is one exact-coin/token turnstile per station (often out of order), and the rest take only Transit Cards. But the CTA did **not** get rid of the fare agents. They are now "Customer Assistants" who cannot make change or collect fares but can assist passengers in using the Transit Card machines and turnstiles, as well as answering the usual transit questions and directions. (My pet question, usually asked by a thirtysomething couple with two kids in tow and the whole lot laden with shopping bags from tourist traps: "Is this the train to O'Hare?" DUH! What do you think that picture of an airplane on the station entrance means?)
- Subject: Re: Chicago fare agents (was: Re: Toekn Booth Clerks)
- Message Number: 761628
- Posted by: Lou from Brooklyn
- Date: Mon Jan 12 14:08:46 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]Chicago fare agents (was: Re: Toekn Booth Clerks) posted by John B. Bredin on January 06, 1998 at 10:38:04: So from Railroad Clerk to Railroad Agent to Token Booth Clerk Customer Care Rep or Customer Experience Rep or just plain Hey You!!! Just like the IRS, people who don't pay there taxes, Revenue Officers still refer to them as "taxpayers" even while they are taking em to court .
  - Subject: Re: Chicago fare agents (was: Re: Toekn Booth Clerks)
  - Message Number: 761629
  - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
  - Date: Mon Jan 12 14:08:51 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Chicago fare agents (was: Re: Toekn Booth Clerks) posted by John B. Bredin on January 06, 1998 at 10:38:04: > DUH! What do you think that picture of an airplane on the station > entrance means?) Watch out for low flying planes on the L?? :) --Mark
    - Subject: Re: Chicago fare agents (was: Re: Toekn Booth Clerks)
    - Message Number: 761676
    - Posted by: Alan Follett
    - Date: Mon Jan 12 14:11:42 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Chicago fare agents (was: Re: Toekn Booth Clerks) posted by John B. Bredin on January 06, 1998 at 10:38:04: Of course, bending over backwards to give our family befuddled turistas the benefit of the doubt, their question could mean, "Does that airplane symbol mean that this is the line to O'Hare, or to Midway?"

Thread title: Tunnel to Staten Island South of Whitehall I SAW IT!! (sorry Hank) (761630)
Started on Mon Jan 12 14:08:56 1998, by Lou from Brooklyn

Subject: Tunnel to Staten Island South of Whitehall I SAW IT!! (sorry Hank)
Message Number: 761630
Posted by: Lou from Brooklyn
Date: Mon Jan 12 14:08:56 1998

Okay Okay, Leaving Whitehall southbound look to your right, just as the train clears the switch from the center track you will see a cut out in the wall. Looks just like the start of a tunnel, same circle cut and it extends 10 or so feet without track. I could see why someone could think it is a start of a tunnel to Staten Island. It is or looks like a start of a tunnel or the remains of a tunnel from somewhere. You have to look quick, the train starts to accellerate quick at that point on the downslope to Brooklyn but the cut out in the wall is there....
- Subject: Re: Tunnel to Staten Island South of Whitehall I SAW IT!! (sorry Hank)
- Message Number: 761666
- Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
- Date: Mon Jan 12 14:11:14 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Tunnel to Staten Island South of Whitehall I SAW IT!! (sorry Hank) posted by Lou from Brooklyn on January 06, 1998 at 12:56:22: Never said the cuts for it weren't there. And there are dozens of other little 'extentions' like this all over the system, like 59st Brooklyn, several locations along Queens Blvd, and along the G line in Bklyn. But that's all there is on the Manhattan side. According to some local legend, there is approximately 250' of tunnel under the St. George ferry terminal.
  - Subject: Re: Tunnel to Staten Island South of Whitehall I SAW IT!! (sorry Hank)
  - Message Number: 761682
  - Posted by: Peter Rosa
  - Date: Mon Jan 12 14:11:58 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Tunnel to Staten Island South of Whitehall I SAW IT!! (sorry Hank) posted by Hank Eisenstein on January 07, 1998 at 06:40:13: In Stan Fischler's new book _The Subway_, he says that some exploratory tunnelling was done in both Staten Island and Brooklyn in the mid-1920s as part of the abortive link between the boroughs. The tunnelling in Brooklyn, off what's now the R line, is well known, but this is the first reference I've seen to actual tunnelling work in Staten Island. So that legend about a tunnel under St. George may have some basis in fact. Actually, as much as I've been enjoying the book, I'm still a bit skeptical about some of the statements in it. As part of this tunnel episode, Stan Fischler mentions the story about how Mayor Hyland bore a grudge against the BRT after having been fired as a motorman. The veracity of that story is quite definitely in doubt, yet it's recounted as fact.
    - Subject: Re: Tunnel to Staten Island South of Whitehall I SAW IT!! (sorry Hank)
    - Message Number: 761683
    - Posted by: Mark Goldey
    - Date: Mon Jan 12 14:12:02 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: Tunnel to Staten Island South of Whitehall I SAW IT!! (sorry Hank) posted by Peter Rosa on January 07, 1998 at 11:36:33: Tunnelling began to connect Brooklyn with Staten Island from both sides. The site of the tunnels is approximately where the Verrazano Narrows brigdge is now located. The Staten Island side never went far; Brookyln went much further.
      - Subject: Re: Tunnel to Staten Island South of Whitehall I SAW IT!! (sorry Hank)
      - Message Number: 761684
      - Posted by: Peter Rosa
      - Date: Mon Jan 12 14:12:04 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Tunnel to Staten Island South of Whitehall I SAW IT!! (sorry Hank) posted by Mark Goldey on January 07, 1998 at 13:12:10: Thanks for the information. Being that the Staten Island-side tunnelling was near the current bridge site, it obviously wouldn't account for the rumored tunnel under the ferry terminal.
        
        Subject: Re: Tunnel to Staten Island South of Whitehall I SAW IT!! (sorry Hank)
        Message Number: 761815
        Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:35:11 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Tunnel to Staten Island South of Whitehall I SAW IT!! (sorry Hank) posted by Peter Rosa on January 07, 1998 at 11:36:33: The story about Hylan (H-Y-L-A-N is the correct speelling, DOT!) is based in fact. He was (allegedly) studying his law books while working for the BMT, and he struck a the coor to a tower, where the tower supervisor was stepping out, on a blind curve. -Hank

Thread title: "Older" Flxibles? (761632)
Started on Mon Jan 12 14:09:01 1998, by Timothy Speer

Subject: "Older" Flxibles?
Message Number: 761632
Posted by: Timothy Speer
Date: Mon Jan 12 14:09:01 1998

Here's another bus question: I remember a few old Flxibles that were just a little different from the ones that were delivered in the seventies. (soon after the new look fishbowls, if my memory serves me correctly) These "older" Flxibles had a chrome bezel around the passenger bell button that was located over the rear door, they had older seats, and the top corner lights on the front of the bus were in an unpainted aluminum housing, rather than painted sheet metal like the "newer" Flxibles. I remember the taillights looking different, too, but I'm sure there were MANY other differences, given the fact that I was just a kid at the time. I rode one once on the M-13 (now the M-8), but saw them all over the place in Staten Island. I imagine NYC didn't buy very many of these, but they must have been around for awhile, cause I saw some that were green, and all the newer Flxibles were delivered painted blue. Does anyone remember these oddballs?
- Subject: Re: "Older" Flxibles?
- Message Number: 761634
- Posted by: Charles Fiori
- Date: Mon Jan 12 14:09:09 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]"Older" Flxibles? posted by Timothy Speer on January 06, 1998 at 13:51:19: There was a 5000-series Flx, without a/c, that appeared in Queens. 5000 and 5100s were in Bklyn, and 5600-5700 were in Queens, IIRC. The next Flxs were in the low 7000s, which orig. had hand rails down the middle, again, IIRC. A low 9000 series came later, which had back-lit advertising signs, negating the possibility of the side sun visors, or whatever you call them. They also had a full-width destination sign adjacent to the boarding door, which was almost never used. Esp. when front signs became ripped up, they cannibalized the side ones. Actually, now that I remember, there was a 4000-series Flxible, which came WITH a/c, that did come in green. I have a picture of one, parked at Floyd Bennett Field. Need more history on that one, though.
  - Subject: Re: "Older" Flxibles?
  - Message Number: 761636
  - Posted by: Wayne Johnson
  - Date: Mon Jan 12 14:09:14 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]"Older" Flxibles? posted by Timothy Speer on January 06, 1998 at 13:51:19: Timothy, NYCTA had very few Flxibles from the 1960 & early 70's - in fact there were only two oders at the time. The first were 5600-5790 (1965) and they did not have Air Conditioning and they were never assigned to any MABSTOA depots. The second group is probably the ones you're referring to. They came around 1971 and they had A/C and they tended to be quite loud when accelerating. Their numbers were 4000-4202 (NYCTA) and 4600-4727 (MABSTOA) . The one you rode was assigned to Hudson Depot and would've been between 4721 and 4727. These early Flxibles were different: Both were orignally green, the windows at the back was much larger than the later Flxibles, the exhaust pipe was under the bus unlike later Flxibles which had it near the top at the rear, yes, the lights at the back were slightly different - they had separate small tail lights beneath the brake lights however the marker lights were in the chrmoe ousing like the later Flxibles. When I say "later Flxibles", I am referring to the two later orders which were in 1975 (7500-7659, NYCTA) & (7700-7928) and 1977 (9000-9159, NYCTA) & (9160-9309, MABSTOA). I hope this answers your question.
    - Subject: Re: "Older" Flxibles?
    - Message Number: 761637
    - Posted by: Wayne Johnson
    - Date: Mon Jan 12 14:09:17 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]"Older" Flxibles? posted by Timothy Speer on January 06, 1998 at 13:51:19: Sorry, I left out one group of flxibles. They came around 1972/3 and were numbered (7000-7204 NYCTA) & (7300-7340???)
      - Subject: Re: "Older" Flxibles?
      - Message Number: 761639
      - Posted by: Timothy Speer
      - Date: Mon Jan 12 14:09:21 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: "Older" Flxibles? posted by Wayne Johnson on January 06, 1998 at 14:30:37: Thanks very much -- that answers my question quite thoroughly.
        
        Subject: Re: "Older" Flxibles?
        Message Number: 761641
        Posted by: Timothy Speer
        Date: Mon Jan 12 14:09:32 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: "Older" Flxibles? posted by Charles Fiori on January 06, 1998 at 14:08:04: The low 7000 series Flxibles with the rail down the middle were a trip! Those rails were ridiculous! We used to sit on them and make the driver's life miserable. I'm glad they took them out. How long did that take, anyway? It seems they didn't last long.
        
        Subject: Re: "Older" Flxibles?
        Message Number: 761652
        Posted by: Jeffrey from Brooklyn
        Date: Mon Jan 12 14:10:19 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: "Older" Flxibles? posted by Timothy Speer on January 06, 1998 at 15:13:32: Although I was a child at the time, I remember these buses had a terrific vertical pole with I think three projecting poles which allowed many more people to hang on to. I think it was connected to the railing, but I'm not sure if it was at the end or the middle of the railing. When the railing was removed, that odd but interesting pole disappeared with it. I thought the railing was nonessential, but too bad they didn't keep the poles. What a pity!
        
        Subject: Re: "Older" Flxibles?
        Message Number: 761655
        Posted by: Bobw
        Date: Mon Jan 12 14:10:33 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]"Older" Flxibles? posted by Timothy Speer on January 06, 1998 at 13:51:19: One of the 5600 group has been saved and is part of the historic fleet. It remains in its TA green. I believe a 4000 is also part of the saved fleet.
        
        Subject: Re: "Older" Flxibles?
        Message Number: 761659
        Posted by: Mike B
        Date: Mon Jan 12 14:10:53 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]"Older" Flxibles? posted by Timothy Speer on January 06, 1998 at 13:51:19: I remember 3 versions of the old Flxibles. #1 These had no Air-Conditioning. I remember growing up riding/seeing these in the '60's on certain routes in Brooklyn like the B-17, B-42 and B-49. #2 These looked like the original Flxibles but had Air-Conditioning. #3 These had Air-Conditioning and an oval rear window (escape hatch.) They also had no "shaded strip" above the side windows.

Thread title: Re: "Mystery" Tunnels (Was: Tunnel to Staten Island South of Whitehall) (761638)
Started on Mon Jan 12 14:09:19 1998, by John B. Bredin

Subject: Re: "Mystery" Tunnels (Was: Tunnel to Staten Island South of Whitehall)
Message Number: 761638
Posted by: John B. Bredin
Date: Mon Jan 12 14:09:19 1998

In Reply to: [8]Tunnel to Staten Island South of Whitehall I SAW IT!! (sorry Hank) posted by Lou from Brooklyn on January 06, 1998 at 12:56:22: In Chicago, on the Dearborn Subway (Blue Line), there are two similar "mystery" portals, one visible as the southbound train completes the turn from the southwesterly direction onto the straight east-west into Lake Transfer station, the other visible on northbound trains as a continuation of the straightaway as the train makes the turn northwest. A crude diagram: \ \ \ \ \ _\____ __\_______ > The east-west portion is under Lake Street, and thus the Lake Street L (now Green Line). These very short tunnels were built as the subway was being built (194?-1953), as accomodation for future plans to bring the Lake Street trains underground and tear down the Loop L. Incidentally, if such a connection had been/were built, it would be possible to run all Chicago rapid transit trains in either the State or Dearborn Subway. (It wouldn't be advisable, though, as the traffic would be positively murderous!)

Thread title: NYCT Orion in New Jersey (761642)
Started on Mon Jan 12 14:09:38 1998, by Wayne Johnson

Subject: NYCT Orion in New Jersey
Message Number: 761642
Posted by: Wayne Johnson
Date: Mon Jan 12 14:09:38 1998

This morning at approx 10 AM I was driving south on US Route 1/9 when I spotted NYCT Orion no. 621 heading northbound about 3 miles south of EWR. I know that some express buses from Yukon Depot operate through NJ en route to Midtown, but I'm pretty sure Orion V no. 621 is assigned to Castleton depot. I wonder what it wss doing there???
- Subject: Re: NYCT Orion in New Jersey
- Message Number: 761644
- Posted by: Lefty
- Date: Mon Jan 12 14:09:47 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]NYCT Orion in New Jersey posted by Wayne Johnson on January 06, 1998 at 15:59:52: i once saw an NYCT RTS pulled over by an NJT cop on 95 south.. what was up with that.. i noticed it was one of the buses with a PA prefix.. but still, why was it there?
  - Subject: Re: NYCT Orion in New Jersey
  - Message Number: 761647
  - Posted by: Joshua Caesar
  - Date: Mon Jan 12 14:09:55 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: NYCT Orion in New Jersey posted by Lefty on January 06, 1998 at 17:16:36: > What was it, a turf war??!! I wonder what the driver was really pulled over for, and why an NJT cop that did it. Ooh, wait, NJT as in NJ Transit or as in NJ Turnpike? Josh Caesar studlyjc@aol.com
    - Subject: Re: NYCT Orion in New Jersey
    - Message Number: 761651
    - Posted by: Lefty
    - Date: Mon Jan 12 14:10:16 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: NYCT Orion in New Jersey posted by Joshua Caesar on January 06, 1998 at 18:21:15: same kinda cop that pulls us over for speeding.. guess turnpike.. i dunno the official name of those bastards..
      - Subject: Re: NYCT Orion in New Jersey
      - Message Number: 761665
      - Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
      - Date: Mon Jan 12 14:11:12 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: NYCT Orion in New Jersey posted by Joshua Caesar on January 06, 1998 at 18:21:15: OK, first, The turnpike has it's own State Trooper Division, and the only 'highway police' in NJ, besides State and Local cops, is the Port Authority PD, and the Palisaides Interstate Pkwy Police. As for what an NYCT Orion was doing on Rt1/9 in Newark: Warranty Engine Work. Detroit Diesel's nearest facility to nYC is in Newark. It is not uncommon to come across the Goethals Bridge and see 5 or 6 NYCT buses coming back from Jersey around 4pm. Not all of them are from SI depots, either, they send all Brooklyn,, Queens, and SI buses via Goethals. Manhattan and Bronx buses go a different way. Never seen them, so I don't know. Detroit's facility in Newark can be FULL of NYCT buses. -Hank

Thread title: Grand Central (761643)
Started on Mon Jan 12 14:09:42 1998, by Frank

Subject: Grand Central
Message Number: 761643
Posted by: Frank
Date: Mon Jan 12 14:09:42 1998

Does anyone have expert knowledge about Grand Central Terminal? Know of any abandoned areas or tracks? If so, please post it.
- Subject: Grand Central
- Message Number: 762059
- Posted by: Steve
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:45:58 1998
  
  How many levels are there in Grand Central Terminal? I know that there are teo track levels. How about excluding those? Any levels under those? If anyone knows, please post it.
  - Subject: Re: Grand Central
  - Message Number: 762060
  - Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:46:00 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Grand Central posted by Steve on January 14, 1998 at 16:53:34: There are two. Just two. With a turnaround on either the upper or lower level (both???). And at least at one point a spur/platform existed for the waldorf astoria. Not much though, and not an "abandoned tunnel" Seriously, what you see in GCT today is all that was ever there. There really isn't anything hidden, at least nothing I'm aware of that's groundbreaking...
    - Subject: Grand Central
    - Message Number: 762116
    - Posted by: David
    - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:48:20 1998
      
      Anyone know where I can read in detail about Grand Central online? If so, please post it. Thank You
      - Subject: Re: Grand Central
      - Message Number: 762117
      - Posted by: HTL
      - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:48:22 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Grand Central posted by Steve on January 14, 1998 at 16:53:34: There are two track levels. The upper level covers tracks 1-42. The lower level is covered by tracks 101 - 117. Below this level is a few cross passageways used for utilities. A few passageways get involved in the new North End Access (NEA) project now under construction, especially 45 St. below the lower level. The tracks diverge from a 4 track Park Avenue alignment at 57th street into 10 tracks a-j. Tracks a,b,f and j descend to the lower level. The lower level is near elevation 115 which is 15 ft above sea level. A cross passage to the east river drains from the lower level at 46th street. Tracks 31 and 22 are former short baggage tracks that are removed for the NEA. Track 12 is long gone. Tracks 118-125 are in the Madison yard area which are prime targets for the LIRR expansion to GCT. Tra
        
        Subject: Re: Grand Central
        Message Number: 762155
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:50:15 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Grand Central posted by David on January 15, 1998 at 19:09:35: I don't know about on-line, other than this site, but there's a great book by Stan Fischler called "Next Stop, Grand Central". --Mark
        
        Subject:
        Message Number:
        Posted by:
        Date: Wed Dec 31 19:00:00 1969

Thread title: Re: NYCT (& Other Transit) Buses In Strange Places (761648)
Started on Mon Jan 12 14:09:58 1998, by Michael S. Buglak

Subject: Re: NYCT (& Other Transit) Buses In Strange Places
Message Number: 761648
Posted by: Michael S. Buglak
Date: Mon Jan 12 14:09:58 1998

In Reply to: [8]Re: NYCT Orion in New Jersey posted by Joshua Caesar on January 06, 1998 at 18:21:15: That reminds me of the time in September 1996 when I was traveling east on Interstate 88 near Binghamton, NY & saw a NYCT RTS heading westbound toward Albany on the back of a flatbed truck. The bus was too far away to read the fleet number, but I remember that the bus had the "Pac-Man" MTA logo & looked like it was brand-new...Hmmmm! Have any other SubTalkers had similar tales of strange buses in strange places? :) Michael S. Buglak, Collegeville, PA (SEPTA Country!)
- Subject: Re: NYCT (& Other Transit) Buses In Strange Places
- Message Number: 761649
- Posted by: John B. Bredin
- Date: Mon Jan 12 14:09:59 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Re: NYCT (& Other Transit) Buses In Strange Places posted by Michael S. Buglak on January 06, 1998 at 19:00:38: I once saw a white and blue MTA bus going eastbound (inbound) on the Kennedy Expressway in Chicago, and I did a double take, to say the least. But two days later, when I was downtown, I saw that they were filming a movie in front of the Board of Trade in Jackson Boulevard, but with the building and street signs covered over and the whole intersection made up like a downtown Manhattan street -- and there was the MTA bus (or at least a bus marked like one, anyway), parked in front of the Federal Reserve Bank. The extras told me they had a mockup newsstand and entrance to a NYC subawy station about a block west, but with the filming blocking my way, I didn't want to go that far out of my way. Note that one block west of the Board of Trade is Wells Street, and the L. I wonder if they had to "white it out" of the movie, as it was clearly visible from the perspective they were filming from.
  - Subject: Re: NYCT (& Other Transit) Buses In Strange Places
  - Message Number: 761654
  - Posted by: Bobw
  - Date: Mon Jan 12 14:10:30 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: NYCT (& Other Transit) Buses In Strange Places posted by Michael S. Buglak on January 06, 1998 at 19:00:38: Flashback time! I had reported at the time that I saw NYCT RTS 8397 going westbound on I-70 on a flatbed in central Illinois last August. Also, several older RTS's had been parked at an outfit called AGS on Route 30 in Camden/Pennsauken NJ (near the Airport Circle) for quite some time. About the middle of last month they were all gone. Must have been reconditioned and sold.
    - Subject: Re: NYCT (& Other Transit) Buses In Strange Places
    - Message Number: 761668
    - Posted by: Charles Fiori
    - Date: Mon Jan 12 14:11:18 1998
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: NYCT (& Other Transit) Buses In Strange Places posted by Michael S. Buglak on January 06, 1998 at 19:00:38: This is a repeat of a thread that hit up some months ago...I saw an artic going southbound on I-294 west of Chicago, near the I-88 junction. No one seemed to know why it would be out here. I think the thread at that time dealt with "longest one-way rides."
      - Subject: Re: NYCT (& Other Transit) Buses In Strange Places
      - Message Number: 761811
      - Posted by: Jon
      - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:35:02 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: NYCT (& Other Transit) Buses In Strange Places posted by Bobw on January 06, 1998 at 20:38:20: I also noticed the NYCTA RTS buses parked in Pennsauken. However, they are still there, but in back with the long-distance buses. I'm so glad I wasn't the only one to notice this unusual sight!
        
        Subject: Re: NYCT (& Other Transit) Buses In Strange Places
        Message Number: 761961
        Posted by: a.aprdi
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:41:27 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: NYCT (& Other Transit) Buses In Strange Places posted by Jon on January 09, 1998 at 16:05:18: i'll go you one further on seeing NYCT BUS rts model in out of city surroundings. I was driving upstate between Hornell NY and Buffalo and i belive it was while travelling north on route 36 two nycta RTS bused I guess scrap parked on someones property??

Thread title: GM Fishbowls, And Older Flxibles - Close Resemblance (761650)
Started on Mon Jan 12 14:10:08 1998, by Timothy

Subject: GM Fishbowls, And Older Flxibles - Close Resemblance
Message Number: 761650
Posted by: Timothy
Date: Mon Jan 12 14:10:08 1998

I can remember when SEPTA used both GM Fishbowls, and Flxibles on their bus routes, and both had a very striking resemblance of each other. If I remember correctly, the GM buses were from the early/mid 1960's, and the Flxibles were from the early 1970's. Both had the same side windows, and almost the same body. Did Flxible get the design for their older buses from GM? Also, Are any of those buses still in service today? All I see now, are Neoplans, and the new Flxibles. Thanks.
- Subject: Re: GM Fishbowls, And Older Flxibles - Close Resemblance
- Message Number: 761653
- Posted by: Bobw
- Date: Mon Jan 12 14:10:26 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]GM Fishbowls, And Older Flxibles - Close Resemblance posted by Timothy on January 06, 1998 at 19:40:05: The windows were slightly different and there were other minor differences. I believe GM first developed the "fishbowl" idea and Flxible came second, although the Flxible front end came from a variation of its partner's (Twin Coach) design which first appeared on buses in the postwar 40's. The Flxible side windows had been used on its Clipper intercity bus dating to about the same time period. All of SEPTA's fishbowls are retired. One Flxible, 6569, has been saved and is in the "museum" fleet. A couple of GM's were being used as crew buses for track gangs on the Suburban side (4300 was one of them) but I'm not sure if they are still around. An RTS 35-footer, 4459, was converted for the same purpose for the City side. SEPTA has no Flxibles on its current roster. Augmenting the nearly 1000 Neoplans are 400 Ikarus buses (the newest buses), 50 Volvo articulateds and 1 Volvo 40-footer.
  - Subject: Re: GM Fishbowls, And Older Flxibles - Close Resemblance
  - Message Number: 761658
  - Posted by: Joe M
  - Date: Mon Jan 12 14:10:48 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]GM Fishbowls, And Older Flxibles - Close Resemblance posted by Timothy on January 06, 1998 at 19:40:05: The GMC and Flex New looks were also amost identical mechanically. Many Engine Transmissions, suspension parts etc were interchangable. Part number crossover charts were common in most shops. Also many third party aftermarket parts were available.
    - Subject: Re: GM Fishbowls, And Older Flxibles - Close Resemblance
    - Message Number: 761671
    - Posted by: Michael S. Buglak
    - Date: Mon Jan 12 14:11:28 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: GM Fishbowls, And Older Flxibles - Close Resemblance posted by Bobw on January 06, 1998 at 20:33:17: The easiest way for me to tell GM Fishbowls & "New Look" Flxibles apart was always to look at the front of the bus. The windshield on a Flxible is 6 pieces of relatively straight glass. Also, there are vents on either side of the front destination sign. On the other hand, a GM Fishbowl has 4 pieces of curved glass in the windshield & no vents on the sides of the front sign. As Bobw mentions in his post, SEPTA has (& never has had) any newer Flxibles (870/Metro's). However, SEPTA's Transit Museum store has a model Flxible in SEPTA colors (this is the Road Champs model which is also made in NYCT & NJT versions,among others!) Go figure! Michael S. Buglak, Collegeville, PA
      - Subject: Re: GM Fishbowls, And Older Flxibles - Close Resemblance
      - Message Number: 761675
      - Posted by: Charles Fiori
      - Date: Mon Jan 12 14:11:39 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: GM Fishbowls, And Older Flxibles - Close Resemblance posted by Michael S. Buglak on January 07, 1998 at 08:27:47: Mike, where is Septa's store? Do they have a web page? Phone no.? Catalogue?
        
        Subject: Re: GM Fishbowls, And Older Flxibles - Close Resemblance
        Message Number: 761678
        Posted by: Timothy
        Date: Mon Jan 12 14:11:46 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: GM Fishbowls, And Older Flxibles - Close Resemblance posted by Michael S. Buglak on January 07, 1998 at 08:27:47: I do have one of the Road Champs SEPTA models. I think the reason the model is of a Flxible bus, even though SEPTA currently has no Flxibles, is probably because of the close resemblance to a Neoplan bus, which currently makes up a very large part of SEPTA's fleet. I also have CTA, NJT, and NYCT versions of the Road Champs bus models, as well as a Corgi PTC GM fishbowl bus, which is also sold at SEPTA's Transit Museum Store.
        
        Subject: Re: GM Fishbowls, And Older Flxibles - Close Resemblance
        Message Number: 761712
        Posted by: trolleybus
        Date: Mon Jan 12 14:13:00 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: GM Fishbowls, And Older Flxibles - Close Resemblance posted by Charles Fiori on January 07, 1998 at 09:11:54: Charles go to this store. Iwork as a bus oper for NYCT AND THEY HAVE ALL THE MODELS. MUCH MORE THAN NYCT MUSEUM. THEY ARE OPEN SATURDAY.
        
        Subject: Re: GM Fishbowls, And Older Flxibles - Close Resemblance
        Message Number: 761835
        Posted by: subway-buff
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:36:03 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]GM Fishbowls, And Older Flxibles - Close Resemblance posted by Timothy on January 06, 1998 at 19:40:05: I remebert the way I tell them apart is by the rear bumper. The GMC had a bumper the invited hitchikers (They'd stand on the bumper and hold on till the cops chased them off). I don't know if it is true but I **thought* that the reason the Flxibles had a sloped bumper twas to avoid hitchilkers. I do know that the GMC RTS and all bus models since then have had the sloped rear bumper. The Flxibles also had warning lights to the left of the driver between the side window and the windshield, vertically mounted. I moved to memmp[his around that time (yuck!!) and they had 15 flxible Fish bowls and hated them- tthe MATA (Memphis Area Transit Authority) had one --bus # 700 that had split windows (horizontal divider) They got rid of them because they were always breaking down and the drivers hated therm- they claimed they handled "differently". Since then MATA specs were written to avoid flxible but AMC "snuck in" with about 50 AMC General buses which also were lemons-they rocked violently from side to side so the driver would have to stop to stabilize the bus. Since then, the specs(I have never seen the specs, only heard talk) wre written for exclusive GMC/RTS/ etc bus models.
        
        Subject: Re: GM Fishbowls, And Older Flxibles - Close Resemblance
        Message Number: 761864
        Posted by: Wayne Johnson
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:37:24 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]GM Fishbowls, And Older Flxibles - Close Resemblance posted by Timothy on January 06, 1998 at 19:40:05: I guess I must really be paying close attention to detail, becuase I never realized the new look GMC and Flxibles would ever confuse many people. To me the differences are quite clear and numerous. While they do have a similar design - I think they are as different in appearance as Toyota Camry and a Honda Accord or an R-32 and R-38.

Thread title: Ex? AC transit bus in tacoma wa (was:Re: NYCT(& Other Transit) Buses In (761656)
Started on Mon Jan 12 14:10:37 1998, by .

Subject: Ex? AC transit bus in tacoma wa (was:Re: NYCT(& Other Transit) Buses In
Message Number: 761656
Posted by: .
Date: Mon Jan 12 14:10:37 1998

Thread title: Station Camera's (761660)
Started on Mon Jan 12 14:10:55 1998, by GarfieldA

Subject: Station Camera's
Message Number: 761660
Posted by: GarfieldA
Date: Mon Jan 12 14:10:55 1998

I've noticed a camera or two along with some monitors or screens at alot of stations. Does anyone know if it's for security reasons or whatever ???
- Subject: Re: Station Camera's
- Message Number: 761661
- Posted by: Frank
- Date: Mon Jan 12 14:10:58 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]Station Camera's posted by GarfieldA on January 06, 1998 at 23:11:22: Those cameras are used for conductors, so they can look around curves and safely close the doors.

Thread title: Re: 98 for the Department of buses MCI ada comp? for Wayne (761662)
Started on Mon Jan 12 14:11:00 1998, by Fernando Perez

Subject: Re: 98 for the Department of buses MCI ada comp? for Wayne
Message Number: 761662
Posted by: Fernando Perez
Date: Mon Jan 12 14:11:00 1998

In Reply to: [8]Re: 98 for the Department of buses posted by Wayne Johnson on January 06, 1998 at 15:11:19: Wayne, are these over the road equipment ada equiped, wheelchair and kneller? I believe I read on a web page for MCI that they make them so, but Im not familiar with over the road equipment to much.
- Subject: Re: 98 for the Department of buses MCI ada comp? for Wayne
- Message Number: 761686
- Posted by: Wayne Johnson
- Date: Mon Jan 12 14:12:08 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Re: 98 for the Department of buses MCI ada comp? for Wayne posted by Fernando Perez on January 06, 1998 at 23:46:11: Yes Fernando, You're right. MCI will add wheelchair lifts and the kneeling feature. What I don't know is if the ADA is satisfied. The wheelchair lifts are very rare, but I know that DART in Dallas has MCI's with wheelchair lifts and kneeling. Unfortunately, the wheelchair lifts are not built into the front door. It has separate entrance on the side, similar to school buses. In NYC area there are some MCI's are in suburban configuration meaning they have no restroom, in some cases 53 seats, kneeling and an air-operated two piece door, as opposed to the standard one piece manual door. Other than two new MCI 102D3 (40 footers) being tested by NJT I don't know of any in the NYC area that have wheelchair lifts. NJT's MC-9 "Jersey Cruisers" and Westchester County's Bee Line MCI 102A2's both have the kneeling feature, but no wheelchair lifts. Keep in mind that they're many MCI non-suburban buses providing commuter and charter service in the NY/NJ area. When you see an MCI coach - more than likely it will bw a non-suburban model. Some MCI Classics operated by the DOT companies have lifts in the front door. All have kneeling. It's basically a transit bus.

Thread title: Re: Correction To Above NYCT Bus Post (761669)
Started on Mon Jan 12 14:11:20 1998, by Michael S. Buglak

Subject: Re: Correction To Above NYCT Bus Post
Message Number: 761669
Posted by: Michael S. Buglak
Date: Mon Jan 12 14:11:20 1998

In Reply to: [8]Re: NYCT (& Other Transit) Buses In Strange Places posted by Michael S. Buglak on January 06, 1998 at 19:00:38: I got the directions on I-88 mixed up! What I meant was that the RTS was headed EAST toward Albany, not west! Sorry for any confusion...Michael S. Buglak

Thread title: Rail to wheel flange clearances (Repost) (761670)
Started on Mon Jan 12 14:11:23 1998, by Timothy Speer

Subject: Rail to wheel flange clearances (Repost)
Message Number: 761670
Posted by: Timothy Speer
Date: Mon Jan 12 14:11:23 1998

How close are the flanges of train wheels supposed to be to the inner edge of the rails? I assume it is different on a straightaway as opposed to on a curve, but I'd like some idea what the official tolerances are. Is it the same for all rail systems? ...or is it different on LRV systems, for example?
- Subject: Re: Rail to wheel flange clearances (Repost)
- Message Number: 761698
- Posted by: Peter Rosa
- Date: Mon Jan 12 14:12:32 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Rail to wheel flange clearances (Repost) posted by Timothy Speer on January 07, 1998 at 08:20:26: The 1989 book _Subway Lives_ had a brief discussion about subway wheel tolerances. I don't remember that much about it, but I do recall that the TA has detailed requirements regarding acceptable tolerances.
  - Subject: Re: Rail to wheel flange clearances (Repost)
  - Message Number: 761822
  - Posted by: Joe M
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:35:26 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: Rail to wheel flange clearances (Repost) posted by Peter Rosa on January 08, 1998 at 10:36:14: On straight track the standard gauge is 4' 8 1/2 " wheels flange gauge is within 1/16 or 1/8" of that depending on the system. The track gauge is usually wider in turns but they sometimes use girder rail to pick up the other side of the wheel flange to help in turns.
    - Subject: Re: Rail to wheel flange clearances (Repost)
    - Message Number: 761830
    - Posted by: Steve
    - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:35:53 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Rail to wheel flange clearances (Repost) posted by Timothy Speer on January 07, 1998 at 08:20:26: There is not a simple answer to your question. If all dimensions are nominal, the answer is Zero clearance. However, there are variables. The back to back dimension, the distance between the backs of the 2 wheels on the axle is nominal 53 3/32" but can be as little as 53". As for flange thickness, a nominal flange will read zero for a new flange. for each 16th of wear, the AAR gauge reading will increase by one. The TA will accept a (5) flange or a flange 5/16"s below nominal. Therefore there can be a maximum of 13/32" between the rail & flange.
      - Subject: Re: Rail to wheel flange clearances (Repost)
      - Message Number: 761837
      - Posted by: Timothy Speer
      - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:36:07 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Rail to wheel flange clearances (Repost) posted by Steve on January 09, 1998 at 23:30:29: Thanks -- this gives me some idea. I wondered about this because as I was (in Boston) on the #39 bus on Huntington Avenue, we were travelling right along side a Green "E" train, and I was watching the wheels roll along the track. It seemed to me the train was moving back and forth laterally at least an inch or so as it rolled along. I guess each system has its own tolerances, but given the sharp turns on the Green line, I imagine the wheels must wear down pretty fast!

Thread title: Leaves on the line (761672)
Started on Mon Jan 12 14:11:31 1998, by Tim Hall

Subject: Leaves on the line
Message Number: 761672
Posted by: Tim Hall
Date: Mon Jan 12 14:11:31 1998

Does the NYC subway suffer from problems caused by falling leaves on open-air sections during October/November? This causes rail adhesion problems with the London Underground, which is even worse on many commuter rail lines, leading to "Leaves On The Line" becoming a standing joke with many commuters. If open-air NYC lines suffer from similar problems with falling leaves, what do they do about it?
- Subject: Re: Leaves on the line
- Message Number: 761673
- Posted by: Todd Glickman
- Date: Mon Jan 12 14:11:33 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Leaves on the line posted by Tim Hall on January 07, 1998 at 08:32:21: Yes, the Brighton Line is one place where leaves are a problem. I entered a post the day after Thanksgiving on SubTalk entitled "Overshoot", as an R-40S "Q" I was riding went BIE and then overshot the Prospect Park station due to damp, crushed leaves on the rails.
  - Subject: Re: Leaves on the line
  - Message Number: 761685
  - Posted by: Charles Fiori
  - Date: Mon Jan 12 14:12:06 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: Leaves on the line posted by Todd Glickman on January 07, 1998 at 08:41:07: That reminds me of a question I asked once when I used to hear the same train out of Dover Plains (pre-electrification) being late every day. I asked an acquaintance at Metro-North why and he said "Leaves on the tracks."
    - Subject: Re: Leaves on the line
    - Message Number: 761688
    - Posted by: Steve
    - Date: Mon Jan 12 14:12:13 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Leaves on the line posted by Tim Hall on January 07, 1998 at 08:32:21: Suffer doesn't begin to describe it. During the fall, the number of cars I true wheels on more than doubles. While most of the cars I cut are from the D line, I do many cars from the #4 line (Bedford Park Station has a leaf problem) and I also pick up the overflow from the A line (Aquaduct Station).
      - Subject: Re: Leaves on the line
      - Message Number: 761737
      - Posted by: Philip Dominguez
      - Date: Mon Jan 12 14:13:59 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Leaves on the line posted by Tim Hall on January 07, 1998 at 08:32:21: The Brighton Line suffers from a leaf problem in the fall. Its not to bad on the flat portions but between ave. H and Newkirk Ave. going down the hill their is a 10 mile-an-hour limit. The R-68's have problems going up the hill and don't get to more than 20 mph unless the tracks are in perfect condition in which they will reach about 25 mph at most.
        
        Subject: Re: Leaves on the line
        Message Number: 761867
        Posted by: Joe M
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:37:32 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Leaves on the line posted by Steve on January 07, 1998 at 19:49:56: When you true the wheels do you grind them on the car or do they need to be removed? How much material usually needs to be cut away. Do the sanders help? (Does the subway use sanders?)
        
        Subject: Re: Leaves on the line
        Message Number: 761870
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:37:41 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Leaves on the line posted by Joe M on January 11, 1998 at 00:02:37: Wheels are not ground, they are cut on a wheel truing machine which is a fairly involved lathe. The car is pulled onto the machine via a winch and the car is then secured to the machine. The rails are then slid out from under the wheels to be cut, leaving the wheels to rest on the cutters. both wheels on the same axle are cut simultaneously. The cutters are formed to maintain the correct wheel profile. As the cutters rotate, so do the wheels. It is necessary to remove roughly 1/16th to1/8th inch in diameter for every inch of flat spots, hence a 4" flat spot might require upto a half inch of metal to be removed from the wheel. New wheels strart with roughly 2 5/8" of metal and can be used down to 1 1/8". One inch is the condemn limit. The TA does not use sander shoes but SIRT did at one time.
        
        Subject: Re: Leaves on the line
        Message Number: 761891
        Posted by: Joe M
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:38:35 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Leaves on the line posted by Steve on January 11, 1998 at 01:02:56: Thanks
        
        Subject: Re: Leaves on the line
        Message Number: 761892
        Posted by: Joe M
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:38:36 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Leaves on the line posted by Steve on January 11, 1998 at 01:02:56: Thanks

Thread title: Nassau Loop Service in the 30s (761674)
Started on Mon Jan 12 14:11:36 1998, by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto

Subject: Nassau Loop Service in the 30s
Message Number: 761674
Posted by: Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto
Date: Mon Jan 12 14:11:36 1998

Does anyone have definite info to indicate that there was Nassau Loop shortline rush-hour service in the 1930s on the Sea Beach line. It seems from all the ERA and other sources, that the publicized established Nassau Loop services were only on West End and Culver lines (in opposite directions BTW). There were also 3 special runs from Brighton via Bridge and back via tunnel over Culver.
- Subject: Re: Nassau Loop Service in the 30s
- Message Number: 761861
- Posted by: Eric B
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:37:17 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]Nassau Loop Service in the 30s posted by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto on January 07, 1998 at 08:48:01: The original Sea Beach subway service in 1915 was Nassau St, but when the Broadway line began opening up a couple of years later, it was all Broadway after that. This I learned from old ERA Bulletins on BMT history. What I always wanted to know, is why the Culver never had Broadway service.
  - Subject: Re: Nassau Loop Service in the 30s
  - Message Number: 761872
  - Posted by: Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:37:51 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Nassau Loop Service in the 30s posted by Eric B on January 10, 1998 at 16:43:27: The Culver subway service was only daytime hours through the 30s. The El service filled in a lot of the headway in the daytime and all service other times. In addition, there was still a pinch in rolling stock availability and so in rush hour subway trains terminated at Kings Highway and also ran express in the LITE direction. Apparently these factors all combined to exclude Culver from B'way service.
    - Subject: Re: Nassau Loop Service in the 30s
    - Message Number: 761913
    - Posted by: Lou from Middletown
    - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:39:19 1998
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: Nassau Loop Service in the 30s posted by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto on January 11, 1998 at 04:38:00: Do you think it might also have to do with the fact you had 4 other services running on the Broadway BMT at the time- 3 expresses (Brighton, Sea Beach,&West End) + 1 local????
      - Subject: Re: Nassau Loop Service in the 30s
      - Message Number: 761937
      - Posted by: Eric B
      - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:40:23 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Nassau Loop Service in the 30s posted by Lou from Middletown on January 12, 1998 at 09:15:03: What I was wondering was what determined that Culver would be the line that was left out, and not one of the other lines. The Brighton had two Broadway services and only three or five rush hr specials to Nassau. Why couldn't they have switched with one of those?

Thread title: SEPTA's Transit Museum Store (761677)
Started on Mon Jan 12 14:11:44 1998, by Michael S. Buglak

Subject: SEPTA's Transit Museum Store
Message Number: 761677
Posted by: Michael S. Buglak
Date: Mon Jan 12 14:11:44 1998

In Reply to: [8]Re: GM Fishbowls, And Older Flxibles - Close Resemblance posted by Charles Fiori on January 07, 1998 at 09:11:54: SEPTA's Transit Museum Store is located at SEPTA Headquarters at 1234 Market Street, Philadelphia, PA 19107. Phone (215) 580-7168. They do not have a catalogue or their own website. (SEPTA's website is www.septa.org) AFAIK, the model Flxible in SEPTA colors is only sold at that store. Michael S. Buglak

Thread title: NY Transit Memories (761689)
Started on Mon Jan 12 14:12:15 1998, by Mellow One

Subject: NY Transit Memories
Message Number: 761689
Posted by: Mellow One
Date: Mon Jan 12 14:12:15 1998

I have just purchased New York Transit Memories by Harold A. Smith. This pictorial book contains a great collection of unpublished photos of bygone transit and traction scene in all 5 boroughs. In reference to "Updown, Downtown', I am in the picture of the IRT Low-V at the 180th St. station on the 3rd Ave El. I have set up a Bronx transit nostagial page at http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Prairie/1346. Happy New Year to everyone. Thank you NYC.Subway.org for your great efforts.
- Subject: Re: NY Transit Memories
- Message Number: 761857
- Posted by: Mark S Feinman
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:37:07 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]NY Transit Memories posted by Mellow One on January 07, 1998 at 20:39:00: Where'd you purchase the book? (Is it a new release?) --Mark
  - Subject: Re: NY Transit Memories
  - Message Number: 761887
  - Posted by: Mellow One
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:38:27 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: NY Transit Memories posted by Mark S Feinman on January 10, 1998 at 15:50:10: Yes, it is a 1997 release by Quadrant Press. I just assume that all rail/transit fans know about new books before I do because I am in Florida. I purchased my copy at a Greenberg Model RR show here in Jacksonville, last week. * [9]Mellow One Home Page
    - Subject: Re: NY Transit Memories
    - Message Number: 761921
    - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
    - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:39:37 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: NY Transit Memories posted by Mellow One on January 11, 1998 at 15:25:15: Nope - didn't have that one, but I'll sure be looking for it now! Thanks for the info! --Mark

Thread title: exterior subway "MTA" placards- (761692)
Started on Mon Jan 12 14:12:21 1998, by Michael B.

Subject: exterior subway "MTA" placards-
Message Number: 761692
Posted by: Michael B.
Date: Mon Jan 12 14:12:21 1998

I'm sure that others have noticed the new MTA decals that are slowly covering up the old TA logo on the subways. On these trains, the depressions on the old placard still "shows through" to the new one. It looks pretty shoddy. Does anyone know why the MTA just didn't flip over the disk shaped placards and adhere the new decal to the fresh side? -Michael
- Subject: Re: exterior subway "MTA" placards-
- Message Number: 761705
- Posted by: Adam
- Date: Mon Jan 12 14:12:46 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]exterior subway "MTA" placards- posted by Michael B. on January 08, 1998 at 00:14:00: Or better yet, why did they "cheap out" with decals and not get entirely new placards? While the stickers seem like a good idea now, what happens when they start peeling? But, I really do like the new MTA logo so it's nice to begin to see it on the subway. I think that all the buses have it already.
  - Subject: Re: exterior subway "MTA" placards-
  - Message Number: 761711
  - Posted by: Dan Schwartz
  - Date: Mon Jan 12 14:12:58 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: exterior subway "MTA" placards- posted by Adam on January 08, 1998 at 11:58:44: If the MTA had spent more money on installing the new logo, they would be accused of wasting money that could better be used for service improvements. Indeed, I think there had been some complaints in that regard when the new logo was first unveiled, and they may have decided to keep further logo-change costs to a minimum as a result. All in all, probably a smart decision. As far as peeling off, the "new logo" stickers have been up on the #4 line R-62s for over a year, and they show no signs of peeling off. I presume that some testing of the adhesive for resistance to weather was done.

Thread title: Re: R-36 Performance (761693)
Started on Mon Jan 12 14:12:22 1998, by Charles Fiori

Subject: Re: R-36 Performance
Message Number: 761693
Posted by: Charles Fiori
Date: Mon Jan 12 14:12:22 1998

In Reply to: [7]Re: Re: LIRR,MNRR M-1 type design and R-44, R-46 posted by Steve on January 07, 1998 at 22:56:30: Remember when back in the very early 1980s, the R36s were the stars of the fleet. I believe their MDBF was something around 30,000mi.
- Subject: Re: R-36 Performance
- Message Number: 761733
- Posted by: Bootsy
- Date: Mon Jan 12 14:13:52 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]Re: R-36 Performance posted by Charles Fiori on January 08, 1998 at 07:50:59: I noticed that some of the Flushing cars are not equipped with an air conditioning unit. The original fans are still in place, and that bulky A/C unit is not there, likewise the two fat poles that support it. The lighting that runs along the center of the ceiling is still there in it's entirety, and interior basically looks pretty much unchanged. Why were some of these cars not retrofitted with air conditioning?
  - Subject: Re: R-36 Performance
  - Message Number: 761788
  - Posted by: Charles Fiori
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:34:10 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: R-36 Performance posted by Bootsy on January 08, 1998 at 21:55:21: Check next time that these were not the R33 single units, which the 7 line needs to make up the 11-car trains. Don't really understand why, if R62s can be delivered as single units and have a/c, why the R33s, when reconditioned, could not be equipped as such. Also, anyone know, but is the 7 line 11 cars all the time? I remember years ago, they would run midday 8s, with a 3-car "butt" waiting at Main St. at about 2:30-3:00 in the afternoon. Also, I know on off hours, you would see 5-car trains.
    - Subject: Re: R-36 Performance
    - Message Number: 761790
    - Posted by: Wayne Johnson
    - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:34:14 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: R-36 Performance posted by Charles Fiori on January 09, 1998 at 08:25:03: Anytime I'm in the area the #7 usually is operating with 11 car trains (10 in the summer). I haven't seen it operating with shorter trains in years. Other than late night shuttles, I haven't seen an IRT train operating with less than 10 cars (or 9 cars for the #3) in a long time.
      - Subject: Re: R-36 Performance
      - Message Number: 761820
      - Posted by: Steve
      - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:35:22 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: R-36 Performance posted by Charles Fiori on January 09, 1998 at 08:25:03: The R-33s did not have AC systems installed during overhaul for purely economic reasons. The AC systems on the R-36s are 10 ton units per car that are independent and not link dependent.
        
        Subject: Re: R-36 Performance
        Message Number: 761958
        Posted by: a.pardi
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:41:21 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: R-36 Performance posted by Charles Fiori on January 09, 1998 at 08:25:03: the r-33 on the number 7 are self contained cars ie: can operate single unit contains converter and compressor. same goes for r 62's. The under carriage for the single unit r 33 doesn't contain room the for the Condensor or any a/c apparatus. while the R 62 which were designed for a/c and single unit operation. Mainline R 33 are married pair ie: must operate in pairs since Odd number unit has compressor for both unit operation and even number unit as converter and batteries for low voltage supply for both units. obviously more room available for a/c apparatus on the underbody.

Thread title: Cyber-slugs or Metrocard fraud has arrived! (761694)
Started on Mon Jan 12 14:12:24 1998, by Charles Fiori

Subject: Cyber-slugs or Metrocard fraud has arrived!
Message Number: 761694
Posted by: Charles Fiori
Date: Mon Jan 12 14:12:24 1998

Today's NY Daily News has an article on a new phenomenon in NY, where people are somehow swiping expired Metrocards to gain entry to the system. [8]Hundreds are Swiping Rides Reusing Expired Subway Cards
- Subject: Re: Cyber-slugs or Metrocard fraud has arrived!
- Message Number: 761695
- Posted by: Subman23
- Date: Mon Jan 12 14:12:26 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Cyber-slugs or Metrocard fraud has arrived! posted by Charles Fiori on January 08, 1998 at 08:03:36: Yes, it is true. People (homeless- believe it or not) have found a way to manipulate discarded "Metrocards" so that unlimited rides can be placed onto the card. Often, these "business minded" homeless people will collect dollars from passengers and swipe them through the turnstile. I would guess that this problem is more widespread than MTA officials admit to it being. Ifirst learned about this activity a month ago but kept my mouth shut. Unlike the Daily News, I did not want to further encourage this activity. It is sad but I guess that Cubic Corp will make a few hundred million dollars more selling hardware/software to the MTA so that this problem can be remedied. Gov. Pataki wasn't kidding when he announced free rides.
  - Subject: Re: Cyber-slugs or Metrocard fraud has arrived!
  - Message Number: 761697
  - Posted by: Larry Littlefield
  - Date: Mon Jan 12 14:12:30 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Cyber-slugs or Metrocard fraud has arrived! posted by Subman23 on January 08, 1998 at 09:39:12: Every business faces "shrinkage," and every business faces the same dillema: measures which reduce theft reduce convenience for legitimate customers, while measures which increase convenience enable theft. Businesses "manage" this tradeoff more or less successfully, and the MTA will have to do the same. If the problem is small enough, catching some of the crooks some of the time (to deter widespread fraud by people who, unlike the homeless, have something to lose by being caught) might be enough. The Metrocard has helped, I'm sure, in one way. The sole purpose of the Franklin Avenue shuttle was to allow people to jump up to the platform and avoid the fare, then get a transfer slip to board the "A/C" and enter the general system. But now, if the MTA is requiring Metrocard for the free transfer, that won't work -- you have to pay somewhere. Are they still giving out the slips?
    - Subject: Re: Cyber-slugs or Metrocard fraud has arrived!
    - Message Number: 761701
    - Posted by: newsman
    - Date: Mon Jan 12 14:12:38 1998
      
      In Reply to: [7]Cyber-slugs or Metrocard fraud has arrived! posted by Charles Fiori on January 08, 1998 at 08:03:36: WCBS Bookstore Sports | Weather TOP STORIES From NEWSRADIO 88 News, Weather & Sports ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Top Stories for Thursday, January 8, 1998 Cheaters Get Free Rides From MetroCards There's a whole new breed of farebeaters out there. They're swiping their way onto the subway without paying the price. Riders with the ultimate discount fare in mind have found a way to take a MetroCard with no money on it and turn it into a free ride pass. People have figured out how to alter a blank metro card so that the system reads it as having value when it doesn't. Some people have used technique to get free rides while others sell rides with it. The MTA says this type of farebeating has been going on for some time but it doesn't know how big its losses are.
      - Subject: Re: Cyber-slugs or Metrocard fraud has arrived!
      - Message Number: 761703
      - Posted by: Nick
      - Date: Mon Jan 12 14:12:42 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Cyber-slugs or Metrocard fraud has arrived! posted by Larry Littlefield on January 08, 1998 at 10:32:53: Luckily the MTA finds out within 24 hours about each scamming metrocard, when the computers show lost fares. The MTA can then cancel each of the scammed metrocards. Unfortunatly, a lot of free rides can be taken during that 24 hour period.-Nick
        
        Subject: Re: Cyber-slugs or Metrocard fraud has arrived!
        Message Number: 761704
        Posted by: Adam
        Date: Mon Jan 12 14:12:44 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Cyber-slugs or Metrocard fraud has arrived! posted by Nick on January 08, 1998 at 11:23:49: I saw this story on the 11:00 Channel 2 news last night and I was shocked! Actually, I don't think there's any special method to doing this. The news reporter just picked up some used MetroCards from the ground and swiped them a few times until they worked. He got 4 free rides off of one of the cards. The TA realized there was a problem when the computer showed "negative balances" on some MetroCards.
        
        Subject: Re: Cyber-slugs or Metrocard fraud has arrived!
        Message Number: 761723
        Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
        Date: Mon Jan 12 14:13:21 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Cyber-slugs or Metrocard fraud has arrived! posted by Adam on January 08, 1998 at 11:50:18: I have a feeling that what people are doing is exploiting a "bug" in the software. I guess the people who wrote it at cubic forgot that a negative balence can't exist. I do know the system has 3 tracks of data, I belive one fixed and two variable length, that the damaged or older one is overwritten, and that the system was believed to be tamperproof. Oh yeah, 2600 has (had) a 1 hr realaudio file discussing this system. They mention Cubic's patent number there. Hey, I think Cubic is a defense contrractor. That would explain why the Metrocard cost a bundle and doesn't work half the time :)
        
        Subject: Re: Cyber-slugs or Metrocard fraud has arrived!
        Message Number: 761734
        Posted by: Lefty
        Date: Mon Jan 12 14:13:54 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Cyber-slugs or Metrocard fraud has arrived! posted by Philip Nasadowski on January 08, 1998 at 19:17:05: i listened to the whole 2600 real audio thing.. botu an hour and then some long i think.. very interesting.. reccomended listening for anyone who reads this board.. www.hope.net click on "metrocard panel"
        
        Subject: Re: Cyber-slugs or Metrocard fraud has arrived!
        Message Number: 761789
        Posted by: Lou from Middletown
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:34:13 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Cyber-slugs or Metrocard fraud has arrived! posted by Nick on January 08, 1998 at 11:23:49: To give a historical perspective on this, I think it is fair(fare?) to point out that when the TA introduced the 15 cent token back in 1953, they discovered that people were using a small German(I think) coin that was worth about 3 cents and was the exact same size, weight, etc as the new token. Which only goes to show- the more things change, the more they stay the same! Only the details change.....
        
        Subject: Re: Cyber-slugs or Metrocard fraud has arrived!
        Message Number: 761959
        Posted by: a. pardi
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:41:23 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Cyber-slugs or Metrocard fraud has arrived! posted by Lou from Middletown on January 09, 1998 at 09:15:42: its amazing that channel 11 news (NYC) would have the audacity to show how to defraud us straphangers with boot leg metrocards which weren't perfect to begin with. come on was this really suppose to inform us or to teach low lifes how to get over? how wins? obviously not the law abiding fare paying citizen....

Thread title: July,1,1998 (761696)
Started on Mon Jan 12 14:12:28 1998, by Lou from Middletown

Subject: July,1,1998
Message Number: 761696
Posted by: Lou from Middletown
Date: Mon Jan 12 14:12:28 1998

Thought everybody would like to know that July 1 is the official start date for the monthly/weekly/daily MetroCards. I was talking to a TA bus driver, and he said that this was the official start-up date. He said that they wanted to start the new system up when there wasn't a full load of regular commuters using the system.Of course there will be a full load of tourists around, which is probably worse!!! Anyway, I know I can't wait to plunk $4 down, and say "give me a daypass"!!
- Subject: Re: July,1,1998
- Message Number: 761699
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Mon Jan 12 14:12:35 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]July,1,1998 posted by Lou from Middletown on January 08, 1998 at 09:56:36: The daypass will be good for us railfans as well. There have been times where I thought it would be cool to take a picture from outside the station but it wasn't worth $1.50 to keep getting off and on. This will be a benefit in that case. Seriously, IMHO it's about time they did this. Having been to cities like London, Paris, San Francisco, where they have integrated weekly passes makes getting around the city by transit much more convenient both in terms of pure tourism and also railfanning.

Thread title: Barricades coming down (761700)
Started on Mon Jan 12 14:12:37 1998, by Peter Rosa

Subject: Barricades coming down
Message Number: 761700
Posted by: Peter Rosa
Date: Mon Jan 12 14:12:37 1998

WCBS radio has reported that those idiotic pedestrian barricades in Midtown are coming down next Monday. Apparently, the city has realized that its experiment in improving traffic flow was a big flop.
- Subject: Re: Barricades coming down
- Message Number: 761706
- Posted by: Gary Gordon
- Date: Mon Jan 12 14:12:47 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Barricades coming down posted by Peter Rosa on January 08, 1998 at 10:42:30: I was driven in to the city yesterday to do some volunteer work at the Intrepid. The pedestrians were most oblivious to the flow of traffic and signals. It would appear that the plan,while poorly executed has some merit. So there is my first post. Hello.
  - Subject: Re: Barricades coming down
  - Message Number: 761786
  - Posted by: Gary Gordon
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:34:03 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Barricades coming down posted by Peter Rosa on January 08, 1998 at 10:42:30: As of 12:10, or 00:10 as the TA like to call it, CBS/88 had His Honor saying that the chief of police would have a statement saying to the effect that they were not infact coming down. When asked if that meant they were permanent, Rudy's reply was that very little is permanent in NY as it is always evolving. And so on and so on.

Thread title: Four tracks in London (761702)
Started on Mon Jan 12 14:12:40 1998, by Tim Hall

Subject: Four tracks in London
Message Number: 761702
Posted by: Tim Hall
Date: Mon Jan 12 14:12:40 1998

In Reply to: [8]Re: Broad Street and other 4 track lines posted by Andrew Byler on January 02, 1998 at 14:52:37: In addition to the two examples mentioned, there are one or two other four-track sections on the London Underground: The Metropolitan line b/w Wembley Park and Rickmansworth is quadruple, shared with Chiltern's (diesel) commuter rail trains. Note that this isn't a case of parallel tube and commuter tracks: all four tracks are electrified and used by LUL services. There are also four tracks on the Picadilly line b/w Acton Town and Northfields, although the eastbound slow line is used as a test track for Acton Works.

Thread title: Transit board (761707)
Started on Mon Jan 12 14:12:49 1998, by Gary Gordon

Subject: Transit board
Message Number: 761707
Posted by: Gary Gordon
Date: Mon Jan 12 14:12:49 1998

Is there a specific place for transit workers to post. I'm looking for input regarding certain jobs. Pros and cons of certain titles and their duties. I like what I see here and I have definite views about the conditions and policies I find in the subway workplace. I'm in signals seeking motormen/women.
- Subject: Re: Transit board
- Message Number: 761718
- Posted by: David Pirmann - Web site host
- Date: Mon Jan 12 14:13:12 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Transit board posted by Gary Gordon on January 08, 1998 at 12:47:05: Welcome Gary, I don't know of any particular site for transit workers. This site is not run by any transit agency, provider, or employee of any such agency or provider. That being said you're welcome to post here. However, a lot of MTA employees who might be lurking here may not post because of the public feeling toward the TA. Plus you'll find that most people here are NOT transit workers but instead, railfans. In any case, us laymen certainly welcome an insider's view of things. So welcome aboard :) -Dave
  - Subject: Re: Transit board
  - Message Number: 761785
  - Posted by: Gary Gordon
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:34:01 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: Transit board posted by David Pirmann - Web site host on January 08, 1998 at 16:39:08: Thanks for the welcome aboard. As I suspect there are probably lurkers who are employees. Actually putting your thoughts in cyber/print might be viewed as dangerous. I'm a "new hire" and not a youngster. After working on the "outside" and for myself for many years the MTA made me an offer I couldn't refuse. I'd like to suggest that the employees might want to start/have a board to exchange ideas/insights and miseries ect. There is the ever present spectre of the dreaded Personnel Folder. And the pervasive feeling that management is out-to-get-me. Well I hope we/you/they can get past that stuff. I'm probably going to take the test for Train Operator. The little voice in my head says" Drive the Train". One of the strangest feelings I had during Track School was flagging a train to stop. I'd been taught (wisely) that you should stay far away from a moving train and that you can't stop a moving train. Well there I was, vest and hand lamp, clearing up for a fast express with about 18" to spare. The next one that came through I made sure I was next in line to flag. And the train stopped as planned. WHEW!!!. I enjoy the job so far,but they still call me "new meat" Check back in 3-5 years!!! So any Motor-persons out there let me hear from you. How's your job? Gary

Thread title: SEPTA Question (the MFL and Trolleys) (761708)
Started on Mon Jan 12 14:12:51 1998, by DB

Subject: SEPTA Question (the MFL and Trolleys)
Message Number: 761708
Posted by: DB
Date: Mon Jan 12 14:12:51 1998

Was the subway-portion of the MFL (Market Frankfort Line/Blue Line) always proposed? Or was it a method of conencting the Frankfort and Market Els? It seems to me like there was not a lot of planning put into the system. Consider the face that viewable sinage is practially non-existant (The M-4's are nice with the electronic sinage, but I have only ridden that train once)and the stations are at odd intervals. Lets consider the subway portion of the system. Stations are at 34, 30, nothing through 15, then at 13, 11, 8, 5, and 2. It seems far too close together, the train speeds up and then stops again. I had heard from another person that the idea was the green line subway/surface system was going to povide "local" service to several stops via the MFL subway, but money ran out at 13th/Juniper street. Is there any truth to this? Sinage needs improvement all around the entire system. Finally, their skip stop A/B train system should be re-worked. If you look at the Westbound portion of your trip, you skip maybe two stations on either train, and you never know what platform is an "A" or a "B". Can anyone help?

Thread title: Last day of service questions (761709)
Started on Mon Jan 12 14:12:54 1998, by Alan Follett

Subject: Last day of service questions
Message Number: 761709
Posted by: Alan Follett
Date: Mon Jan 12 14:12:54 1998

Can anyone furnish the last day of trolley service (i.e., regular revenue passenger servide) for the following cities? - New York (the Queensboro Bridge line--ca. 1955?) - Suburban New York - I believe TARS service north of the city limits, in Yonkers or thereabouts, continued to the early 1950's?) - Cincinnati (ca. 1950?) - Dallas (1959, but does anyone recall the exact date?) - Kansas City (ca. 1957?) - Scranton (ca. 1952?) - Wilkes Barre (ca. 1950?) Thanks in advance for any help you can provide!

Thread title: Re: SEPTA Question (the MFSE and Subway-Surface Cars) (761714)
Started on Mon Jan 12 14:13:04 1998, by Carl M. Rabbin

Subject: Re: SEPTA Question (the MFSE and Subway-Surface Cars)
Message Number: 761714
Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
Date: Mon Jan 12 14:13:04 1998

In Reply to: [7]SEPTA Question (the MFL and Trolleys) posted by DB on January 08, 1998 at 13:32:14: A short history of how the MFSE and the Subway Surface Lines have worked together (and still do): When the Market-Frankford Subway-Elevated was first built, it was elevated from Bridge-Pratt to Front and Market, then subway from Front St. to a portal at 24 St. where it became elevated with the following stops along Market Street: Subway: 2,5,8,11,13,15, Elevated: 32,36,40,46,52,56,60,63,Millbourne,69. There was also an extra elevated branch just where it became elevated out from the 2nd St. station east and south to the ferries on Delaware Avenue at Market St., so half the trains went to Bridge-Pratt, and half to the Ferries. All went from 69th St. Signs oin the stations back then said "Ferries-Frankford Trains." Surrounding the two MFSE tracks from about 13th (actually beginning at a lower-level turning circle under Juniper St, which is an alley between 13th and Broad) to the portal at 24th was a set of two outer (local) tracks used by trolley cars, originally the 10,11,13,34,37,38 streetcars. They provided local service between 15th and 32nd St. with two stops at 19th and 24th then street service on Market Street to the trolley track splits at Woodland Avenue (now closed to traffic) and at Lancaster Avenue. Other trolleys in the old days ran on the street on Market St. right over the tunnels. BTW, Transfers were free until the early 60s I believe, when they became a nickel a transfer. In 1955 the tunnels were expanded: The MFSE tunnel was expanded to 45th at Market and the old 32, 36, 40 St. El stations were replaced by the following subway stations: 30, 34, 40 Sts. The outer (local) streetcar tunnels were expanded with the MFSE up to 32 St. under Market and then under Woodland Avenue to 40th St, with a "Lancaster" Portal at 36th and Market. The 10, 11, 13, 34, and 36 trolleys went through the tunnels. Woodland Avenue over the tunnel became a part of the Univ. of Pennsylvania Campus. A 22nd St. local station was built for the trolley cars. If you look closely you can see the the 19 St. local station is much older looking than the 22 St station and has a completely different style. Also built were 30th&Market (both trolley and MFSE), 33&Market, 36&Sansom, 37&Spruce. A large building (I think PGE) was built over the 24th & Market St. portal, which was abandoned in 1955, but was still visible outdoors until 1969 (I know because I saw it then). Since the MFSE has only one route, from 69th St. to Bridge-Pratt Sts., no signs are needed on the trains. In the stations you only need to have signs saying "Trains to 69th St" or "Trains to Frankford". The station spacing is not odd; 19th and 22 are covered by the Subway-surface trolley cars. From 24th to 30 St is the Schuylkill River, so no stop is needed there. The only signs needed on an MFSE train are A or B. The reason there are so few A/B stops in West Philadelphia is that 34th St. used to be an A station, but because of new office buildings they had to make it a All-stop station. That now leaves 46 and Millbourne as B stations, and 63 as an A station. To the northeast, 2nd St. used to be an A station, and the old Fairmount Avenue station used to be a B station. (It was torn down when the line was moved to the median of I-95 and replaced with a Spring Garden St. Station.) Both 2nd and Spring Garden are now All-stop stations due to recent development. To summarize about station spacing: Currently there is a station every 2-4 blocks across Center City, at 2, 5, 8, 11, 13, 15, 19, and 22 Streets. West of the river on Market St. there are stops of some trolley or train at 30, 33, 34, 36, 40, 46, 52, 56, 60, 63, Millbourne(66), 69 St. That should be enough for most people. Interesting Final Facts: MFSE: Wide Gauge, 3rd Rail, "IRT" width cars Subway Surface: Wide Gauge, trolley pole overhead Broad St. Subway: Standard Gauge, 3rd Rail "BMT/IND" width cars It seems to me the system works great just the way it is, except that I wish the MFSE ran more often in midday. It's funny but the nearly-retired MFSE cars still look really good. But the lack of air conditioning is brutal in the summer.
- Subject: Re: SEPTA Question (the MFSE and Subway-Surface Cars)
- Message Number: 761724
- Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
- Date: Mon Jan 12 14:13:23 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Re: SEPTA Question (the MFSE and Subway-Surface Cars) posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 08, 1998 at 15:04:06: I was only on that old stuff once, in the summer, and yeah, it's bad. BUT WHAT FUN THAT WINDOW IN THE FRONT IS!!!!!!!!! You can literally have a blast watching out the front!!! How fast can those things go anyway?? Oh yeah, aren't the side door pnumatic??
  - Subject: Re: SEPTA Question (the MFSE and Subway-Surface Cars)
  - Message Number: 761806
  - Posted by: Andrew Byler
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:34:51 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: SEPTA Question (the MFSE and Subway-Surface Cars) posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 08, 1998 at 15:04:06: Thanks for this informative post Carl. A few additions are in order. Part of the old portal work for the subway at the riverfront can still be seen, but it is cemented over. If you go down to the level of the CSX (ex B&O tracks) along the river, and walk under the Market St. bridge, you'll see the abutment for Market St., and then, north of that, excess concrete work where the MFSE and Subway-Surface lines formerly ran. Even more confusing in comparing the MFSE and the Broad St. is that the MFSE is underurnning thrid rail, ala New York Central, while Broad St. (and also the Lindenwold line) is standard overrunning third rail. The Norristown High Speed Line from 69th St. (ex Philadelphia and Western) is standard guage, Broad St. profile overrunning third rail. This is why it has never been linked to the MFSE. The long gap from 15th St. to 30th St. has been noticed by SEPTA. A Proposal has been kicked around for several years now to build a new station between 20th and 21st Sts. to serve the new Commerce Square and Blue Cross skyscrapers, and also the Bell Atlantic and Mellon Bank towers. This would probably spur enough development to get rid of the old XXX Theater down Market St. too. The station would have an island platform, necessitating moving one Subway, and one Subway-Surface car track outwards (I believe northwards), so that the Subway-Surface cars would run in a new track bed, while the subway would take over the Subway-Surface right of way. The reason given for this is to eliminate the necessity of transferring onto the already overcrowded Subway-Surface car lines. Andy Byler
    - Subject: Re: SEPTA Question (the MFSE and Subway-Surface Cars)
    - Message Number: 762234
    - Posted by: Alfonso Georeno
    - Date: Mon Jan 26 10:27:30 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: SEPTA Question (the MFSE and Subway-Surface Cars) posted by Andrew Byler on January 09, 1998 at 13:57:21: I recall as a boy a Subway/Surface stop at 24th Street, to service the old B&O Station. That's probably a little too far west to take care of today's Market Street West development. Al

Thread title: To Trolleybus: Which Store??? (761715)
Started on Mon Jan 12 14:13:05 1998, by Charles Fiori

Subject: To Trolleybus: Which Store???
Message Number: 761715
Posted by: Charles Fiori
Date: Mon Jan 12 14:13:05 1998

In Reply to: [7]Re: GM Fishbowls, And Older Flxibles - Close Resemblance posted by trolleybus on January 08, 1998 at 14:40:49: I got your msj, but to which store were you referring? I know the RedCaboose has a bunch of the Corgi models, but I am in Chicago and only get East a few times a year. Thanks for the reply.
- Subject: Re: To Trolleybus: Which Store???
- Message Number: 761838
- Posted by: trolleybus
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:36:09 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]To Trolleybus: Which Store??? posted by Charles Fiori on January 08, 1998 at 15:04:27: the store is at 1234 market street in central phila. its well worth a visit but quite a trip for you.

Thread title: Advice Needed On Transitfanning Boston's MBTA (761716)
Started on Mon Jan 12 14:13:08 1998, by Michael S. Buglak

Subject: Advice Needed On Transitfanning Boston's MBTA
Message Number: 761716
Posted by: Michael S. Buglak
Date: Mon Jan 12 14:13:08 1998

I am traveling to Boston this Sunday, 1/11/98, & staying at the Sheraton in Prudential Center until Wednesday, 1/14. I'm looking for suggestions for interesting rides on "T" lines. Also, are there any decent hobby shops in downtown Boston that carry transit and/or traction msterial? Finally, I know that the MBTA has a policy of no photos of their property. Is there any way I can get a permit from them for photography from public areas (Re: Outdoor platforms)? As always, any feedback is MUCH appreciated. Thanks!-Michael S. Buglak
- Subject: Re: Advice Needed On Transitfanning Boston's MBTA
- Message Number: 761717
- Posted by: Todd Glickman
- Date: Mon Jan 12 14:13:10 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Advice Needed On Transitfanning Boston's MBTA posted by Michael S. Buglak on January 08, 1998 at 16:15:09: With a stay that long, you can ride ALL the lines rapid transit and trolley lines easily! But don't miss the Ashmont-Mattapan segment of the Red Line. It is operated with PCCs (and internally to the MBTA, is part of the Green Line operation). You should also ride portions of the Commuter Rail system, perhaps one south side and one north side line. In addition, when in Cambridge, get off at Harvard Square and ride the 77A trolley bus line (M-F only). The "no photos" policy is true, but I rarely get hassled. If so, just play ignorant and say "I'm sorry." You can try calling the PR office at MBTA H/Q to see if they will give you a permit. By the way, I'm told that policy is from way back, supposedly to "protect" MBTA workers. Sheesh.
  - Subject: Re: Advice Needed On Transitfanning Boston's MBTA
  - Message Number: 761730
  - Posted by: Bootsy
  - Date: Mon Jan 12 14:13:43 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: Advice Needed On Transitfanning Boston's MBTA posted by Todd Glickman on January 08, 1998 at 16:37:04: I know that the Ashmont-Mattapan line is an extension of the Red Line. But if it is part of the Green Line, why doesn't it appear Green on the map?
    - Subject: Re: Advice Needed On Transitfanning Boston's MBTA
    - Message Number: 761735
    - Posted by: Joe-m
    - Date: Mon Jan 12 14:13:56 1998
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: Advice Needed On Transitfanning Boston's MBTA posted by Bootsy on January 08, 1998 at 21:23:50: Is it because the equipment is streetcar AKA light rail not Rappid tranist?
      - Subject: Re: Advice Needed On Transitfanning Boston's MBTA
      - Message Number: 761738
      - Posted by: Todd Glickman
      - Date: Mon Jan 12 14:14:02 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Advice Needed On Transitfanning Boston's MBTA posted by Bootsy on January 08, 1998 at 21:23:50: The Mattapan-Ashmont line is publicly part of the Red Line, as it extends the heavy rail rapid transit line that terminates in Ashmont. However, since it is operated by light rail trolleys (PCCs), it is operationally part of the Green Line, in that the operators are trained by and supervised by the Green Line; the tracks and overhead are maintained by the Green Line, etc. I suppose it was thought that having a Green Line extension of a Red Line route would be confusion, especially this segment is nowhere near the rest of the Green Line.
        
        Subject: Re: Advice Needed On Transitfanning Boston's MBTA
        Message Number: 761851
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:36:44 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Advice Needed On Transitfanning Boston's MBTA posted by Todd Glickman on January 08, 1998 at 16:37:04: I'll have to second Todd on the "no picture" policy. I've ridden MBTA many times with a camera and was never hassled by anyone. --Mark

Thread title: Re: SEPTA Question (the MFSE and Subway-Surface Cars) One More Time (761720)
Started on Mon Jan 12 14:13:15 1998, by Carl M. Rabbin

Subject: Re: SEPTA Question (the MFSE and Subway-Surface Cars) One More Time
Message Number: 761720
Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
Date: Mon Jan 12 14:13:15 1998

In Reply to: [7]Re: SEPTA Question (the MFSE and Subway-Surface Cars) posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 08, 1998 at 15:04:06: One final addendum: Numbered streets are 1/20 mile apart. Numbered streets in Philadelphia are about 1/10 mile apart. 15th St. and 13th Street are about 1/4 mile apart, with City Hall in between them. 11th St. is where Reading Terminal has always been (a major railroad terminal) so a station was needed there. So close together stations really are needed there. The others are 3 blocks or nearly 1/3 mile apart, farther than 23 and 28 St. in New York.
- Subject: Re: SEPTA Question (the MFSE and Subway-Surface Cars) One More Time
- Message Number: 761728
- Posted by: Bobw
- Date: Mon Jan 12 14:13:38 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Re: SEPTA Question (the MFSE and Subway-Surface Cars) One More Time posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 08, 1998 at 17:11:56: Also, keep in mind that the original subway went around City Hall, not directly under it (this didn't happen until 1936). Thus, the trip between 15th and 13th was about three times as long back then. The Peco Energy building (formerly Phila Electric), not PGE, is what occupies the old portal at 24th. Back in 1907, much as it is today, Market St was Phila's main street for shopping, and the close spacing of subway stops reflected this busy area. It would be hard to imagine stops being much further apart nowadays. If you observe 15th in the peak hours you will get an idea of how crowded some of these further-spaced stops might be. An off-again, on-again proposal to build a new stop at 20th to relieve 15th and 30th (about the only thing that the subway hasn't accommodated in the past 90 years is the growth of high-rises on Market St west of 15th) could rise again, but it's awfully expensive. I agree that signage could be better. When I ride the El (and it's not all that frequent), and even the subway-surface (more frequent), I'm quite happy that I know where I'm going. Even the new attempts to provide better signage haven't really been very effective. One thing that helps on the trolleys is the PA system. The M-4's will have both this and visual annunciators so folks shouldn't get lost as easily in the future.
  - Subject: Re: SEPTA Question (the MFSE and Subway-Surface Cars) One More Time
  - Message Number: 761729
  - Posted by: DB
  - Date: Mon Jan 12 14:13:41 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: SEPTA Question (the MFSE and Subway-Surface Cars) One More Time posted by Bobw on January 08, 1998 at 20:45:07: Instead of a new station at 20th, why not expand the Green Lines' 19 or 22nd station to blue line service... this would still be costly, but I would imagine cheaper than a whole new excavation project.
    - Subject: Re: SEPTA Question (the MFSE and Subway-Surface Cars) One More Time
    - Message Number: 761792
    - Posted by: Carl M. rabbin
    - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:34:18 1998
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: SEPTA Question (the MFSE and Subway-Surface Cars) One More Time posted by Bobw on January 08, 1998 at 20:45:07: My age is showing. Back when I went to college in Philadelphia, PECo was the Philadelphia Gas & Electric Company.
      - Subject: Re: SEPTA Question (the MFSE and Subway-Surface Cars) One More Time
      - Message Number: 761793
      - Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
      - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:34:20 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: SEPTA Question (the MFSE and Subway-Surface Cars) One More Time posted by DB on January 08, 1998 at 21:03:57: I don't get it. What is so difficult about walking up a small flight of stairs from the local line and down a smaller flight to the express line? At 13th Street, it's even shorter, just one flight up or down. People on the Lexington Avenue line north of 42 St do it all the time. People in Philadelphia have been doing it for 75 years. I would rather they spent the money building extensions or increasing service than trying to get direct MFSE service between 30 and 15. Also the Subway Surface Cars run so frequently, about every 2-3 minutes in the middle of the day, that I think that service is preferable to MFSE. When I'm in Philadelphia and want to go from 15 to 30, I always take the cars. There is almost no wait. Even in the middle of the night the combined lines run every 10 minutes (3 lines at 1/2 hour intervals each).

Thread title: Thanks -- Re: SEPTA Question (the MFL and Trolleys) (761722)
Started on Mon Jan 12 14:13:19 1998, by DB

Subject: Thanks -- Re: SEPTA Question (the MFL and Trolleys)
Message Number: 761722
Posted by: DB
Date: Mon Jan 12 14:13:19 1998

In Reply to: [8]SEPTA Question (the MFL and Trolleys) posted by DB on January 08, 1998 at 13:32:14: I agree with you 100% that the current MFL (or MFSE) trains are in excellent shape for 38 years old. The new trains are much nicer, as I said I was able to get a ride in one back in November. I still think the A/B skip-stops can be worked out better, perhaps when the M-4s are fully intergrated, they will have the capability or doing something different. Something I would like to see during peak N.B.--These is just a "perfect" world idea, and probabally not possible-- *Have the trains arrive in this fashion every 5 or so minutes *Train order should be A, Local, B, Local A L B 69th A L Millbourne L B 63 A L 60 L B 56 A L 52 L B 46 A L 40 -------- A L B 34 (what can i say, I am a Drexel Student...) A L B 30 A L B 15 A L B 13 A L B 11 A L B 8 -------- A L 5 L B 2 and continue the current pattern on Frankford portion Again, from an engineering standpoint, I dont know if any of it is possible. Perhaps a creation of a C line for office stops etc, would also be handy. Happy travels, DB
- Subject: Re: Thanks -- Re: SEPTA Question (the MFL and Trolleys)
- Message Number: 761795
- Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:34:24 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]Thanks -- Re: SEPTA Question (the MFL and Trolleys) posted by DB on January 08, 1998 at 17:39:22: Not to belabor it, but the sole purpose of A/B service is have a train not stop quite so often on its run, so the trains can complete their service faster. All A-only and B-only stations have 1/2 the service but each ride is faster. Having all-stop trains interleaved just increases the chance of backups on the line. A and B apparently are all that is needed. Here's why: Let's pretend that there are no AB stops and that all relevant travel time is dwell time, not inter-station time. Having A and B service cuts the dwell time of each train in half, so a 20-minute ride would become a 10-minute ride (remember, this is idealized to make the numbers stand out more). If you then have A & B & C service a 20-minute ride gets cut to a 7-minute ride (1/3 the time). The difference between 10 and 7 minutes in our idealized system is not that great to justify confusing people with 3 types of service. If we then throw in the (real-world)travel time between stations, AB(C) stops just makes the numbers get even closer together, and at the same time making the wait time between trains even longer. Throw in some all-stop trains to make the line even more crowded and you've lost all advantages. Anyway, I would agree that there should be more A/B service on the line to make it meaningful again. Maybe start it earlier and run it later each day, maybe make 34 and 56 A stops, restore A-B to 2nd St. and Spring Garden St., etc. But major changes other than adding service and skipped stations would not be useful. (Ain't I a party pooper?)

Thread title: RE: Signs (761725)
Started on Mon Jan 12 14:13:26 1998, by Joe from Philly

Subject: RE: Signs
Message Number: 761725
Posted by: Joe from Philly
Date: Mon Jan 12 14:13:26 1998

In Reply to: [7]Re: SEPTA Question (the MFSE and Subway-Surface Cars) posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 08, 1998 at 15:04:06: I could be wrong, but I think DB was referrring to the lack of sinage on the station platforms, like "30th Street" even though their are the numbers of the stations on the supports of the trains. Also, I understand what he/she is saying about the stop spacing, I enter the el at 69th and have to transfer at 30 to go to 22 (except in summer or when Jnuary is like this. Icould be wrong though

Thread title: What NYCT bus changes are going to take effect for the March 98 pick. (761731)
Started on Mon Jan 12 14:13:47 1998, by Mike

Subject: What NYCT bus changes are going to take effect for the March 98 pick.
Message Number: 761731
Posted by: Mike
Date: Mon Jan 12 14:13:47 1998

I would like to know what NYCT bus changes are going to take effect for the March 98 pick like adding more service on selected routes, extended routes, restructing routes, new bus routes & etc. Please post it.

Thread title: Metro-North (761736)
Started on Mon Jan 12 14:13:58 1998, by Dave

Subject: Metro-North
Message Number: 761736
Posted by: Dave
Date: Mon Jan 12 14:13:58 1998

I was riding Metro-North out of Grand Central and I wondered why there is a green flashing light. What is this suppose to mean? I also notice two red lights, one on top and one on the bottom. Both go on only when a train is in the block.Anyone know what this means?
- Subject: Re: Metro-North
- Message Number: 761850
- Posted by: Mark S Feinman
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:36:41 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Metro-North posted by Dave on January 08, 1998 at 22:34:53: The flashing green, I believe, indicates to the train operator that cab control is in effect. --Mark

Thread title: Re: Thanks -- Re: SEPTA Question (M-4's) (761739)
Started on Mon Jan 12 14:14:05 1998, by Mystery

Subject: Re: Thanks -- Re: SEPTA Question (M-4's)
Message Number: 761739
Posted by: Mystery
Date: Mon Jan 12 14:14:05 1998

In Reply to: [7]Thanks -- Re: SEPTA Question (the MFL and Trolleys) posted by DB on January 08, 1998 at 17:39:22: Do the M-4's have Transverse Cabs? Does Philly plan on having OPTO like NY?
- Subject: Re: Thanks -- Re: SEPTA Question (M-4's)
- Message Number: 761895
- Posted by: Bobw
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:38:43 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Re: Thanks -- Re: SEPTA Question (M-4's) posted by Mystery on January 08, 1998 at 23:33:05: As far as I know, the M-4's have standard cabs. OPTO will be coming to the El once the M-4's are here. A special TV system will be used to help the motorman. The only places where there are center platforms are 34th, 30th and Spring Garden, and trains may be "wrong side" at both 69th and Bridge-Pratt (oops, Frankford Terminal!) depending on where they start. OPTO is currently in use on the Broad St Subway and no problems have been reported, other than slow locals since many stops are island platforms. By the way, the M-4 order is down 2 cars, from 222 to 220. The two trash/money cars are being dropped in favor of a couple of rehabbed Budds which will provide this service.

Thread title: Re: R-68As going back to the Q (Complaints?) (761746)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:08:45 1998, by Mike Rothenberg

Subject: Re: R-68As going back to the Q (Complaints?)
Message Number: 761746
Posted by: Mike Rothenberg
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:08:45 1998

In Reply to: [8]Re: R-68As going back to the Q posted by Peter Rosa on December 20, 1997 at 23:22:26: Why should the MTA respond to Q/Brighton complainers and move train types around? B/WestEnders didn't complain with the ones the Q's are comlaining about. Are the B/WE'rs just unsophisticated or better citizens who aren't prima-donnas? And the B/WE's had them for years. What's the reason for Q'ers to complain?
- Subject: Re: R-68As going back to the Q (Complaints?)
- Message Number: 761748
- Posted by: Steve
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:08:49 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Re: R-68As going back to the Q (Complaints?) posted by Mike Rothenberg on December 21, 1997 at 12:21:21: The MTA is a public agency and as such responds to public pressure. This is not the first time public pressure (or political pressure) has led to a decission which is not in the best interests of the greater segment of the public. Look back a few years when Ruth messenger forced the TA to permit open baby strollers onto trains. The safety issue was completely disregarded in favor of the more politically correct 'woman's issue'. This is not unique to the MTA - every public agency is sensative to public pressure. Brighton Beachers are just better bitchers.
  - Subject: Re: R-68As going back to the Q (Complaints?)
  - Message Number: 761752
  - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:08:58 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: R-68As going back to the Q (Complaints?) posted by Steve on December 21, 1997 at 16:33:07: Yes, I remember when the BB'ers bitched and moaned when the then-new R-46s were transferred onto the Brighton Line ... the Rockwell Trucks, at the time, were claimed to be causing too much vibration ..... --Mark
    - Subject: Re: R-68As going back to the Q (Complaints?)
    - Message Number: 761765
    - Posted by: Charles Fiori
    - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:09:25 1998
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: R-68As going back to the Q (Complaints?) posted by Mark S Feinman on December 21, 1997 at 21:28:22: The Rockwell trucks only started vibrating once they started cracking, which happened around 1980. They had run exclusively on the E&F&N, and when enough of them were O/S due to cracked trucks, the fleet was transferred to Pitkin, where they could run on the CC, during rush hours only. The move to put R46s on Brighton was indeed short-lived, due to the vibrating trucks rumbling on the embankment. Also, remember, that the R44s at that time made R11s look reliable as they only made it about 5,000 miles between breakdowns. All in all, you could see how heinous a job it was to make service on the IND in those days.
      - Subject: Re: R-68As going back to the Q (Complaints?)
      - Message Number: 761769
      - Posted by: Mike Rothenberg
      - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:09:35 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: R-68As going back to the Q (Complaints?) posted by Steve on December 21, 1997 at 16:33:07: A compliment to Steve for his humorous presentation. Too bad the MTA responds to whiners, and doesn't do what may be best on a system-wide basis.

Thread title: Re: Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains.(Amended answer) (761751)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:08:56 1998, by Eric B

Subject: Re: Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains.(Amended answer)
Message Number: 761751
Posted by: Eric B
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:08:56 1998

In Reply to: [7]Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains. posted by Mike on December 20, 1997 at 16:27:27: Amended: >I've heard rumors about these numbers before, and from what I heard, the 8 is supposed to be the express, another number is supposed to be the exp to 238/241, and the other numbers are supposed to be routes with different terminal combinations-- 148th-Flatbush, etc. ADDITION: I just looked again at your post. If the 11 is purple, that must be the Flushing express. The green 10 must be the Bronx thru-exp, the red 13 is probably 148-Flatbush The green 12, I believe goes from Woodlawn to somewhere, probably Flatbush.
- Subject: Re: Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains.(Amended answer)
- Message Number: 761774
- Posted by: Christopher Rivera
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:09:46 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Re: Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains.(Amended answer) posted by Eric B on December 21, 1997 at 18:11:54: The 7 and the 4 train don't need an express train and the train would have to be like the 5 train to Manhattan AM to To Bronx PM. A line from Woodlawn to Flatbush but the 5 train would have to be re-routed and that would make people very mad. Where would they find the Money also. If I would the MTA president I would have those train go from 241 Street to Coney Island or the 11 train would go fom Fulshing to South Ferry. We have to use these lines to an advantage begin a project that I wanted to happen it is called the T.B.T Tri-brough transit it may have numbers but it will connect IRT train lines with BMT lines even sharing the same platform. The Bronx has enough lines as it is thay should put more lines further into Queens like the boarder between Long Island and Queens. What do you think?
  - Subject: Re: Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains.(Amended answer)
  - Message Number: 761777
  - Posted by: Eric B
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:09:55 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains.(Amended answer) posted by Christopher Rivera on December 24, 1997 at 17:40:47: I think these are just numbers they threw on there just in case they decided to renumber the alternate routes of some lines. I did hear they were seriously considering making the 6 express the 8, but i haven't heard about that recently.

Thread title: Re: R-68As going back to the QDistinguishing bet R-68/68A (761761)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:09:17 1998, by Wayne Johnson

Subject: Re: R-68As going back to the QDistinguishing bet R-68/68A
Message Number: 761761
Posted by: Wayne Johnson
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:09:17 1998

In Reply to: [8]Re: R-68As going back to the Q posted by Bootsy on December 22, 1997 at 17:06:29: There are very small (and few) visual differences between the R-68 and R-68A. I can distinguish between the two immediately, but the easiest way to tell them apart is by their fleet numbers (R-68 2500-2924, R-68A 5001-5200), The crew cab's door (R68's swing, while R-68A's slide), and even by the windows. If you look closely, the section the tilts in seems to be a bit larger on the R-68A.

Thread title: Re: Future IND letters (Was re:future IRT Numbers) (761781)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:10:16 1998, by subway-buff

Subject: Re: Future IND letters (Was re:future IRT Numbers)
Message Number: 761781
Posted by: subway-buff
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:10:16 1998

In Reply to: [8]Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains. posted by Mike on December 20, 1997 at 16:27:27: Are there "extra" letters for B Division (IND/BMT) such as are found on the IRT. If so what letters ,colors and if any are " diamonds" (such as the IRT 5,7 diamonds)

Thread title: NYW&B (761783)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:33:55 1998, by Jeff Hitchens

Subject: NYW&B
Message Number: 761783
Posted by: Jeff Hitchens
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:33:55 1998

Anyone needing information concerning the New York, Westchester & Boston Railway may send request to dti@dmv.com
- Subject: NYW&B
- Message Number: 761784
- Posted by: Jeff Hitchens
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:33:57 1998
  
  Anyone needing information concerning the New York, Westchester & Boston Railway may send request to dti@dmv.com
  - Subject: Re: NYW&B
  - Message Number: 761825
  - Posted by: Peter Rosa
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:35:35 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]NYW&B posted by Jeff Hitchens on January 09, 1998 at 01:43:13: Stan Fischler's new book _The Subway_ (actually an update of an earlier work) has a few pages on the Westchester line. You might find it interesting to read this section, and see if it's accurate. While I've enjoyed the book a great deal, there are some rather questionable points and omissions.

Thread title: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms (761787)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:34:08 1998, by Timothy

Subject: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
Message Number: 761787
Posted by: Timothy
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:34:08 1998

I've noticed that on many of New York's elevated stations, the platforms are surrounded by these ugly corrugated steel walls, instead of railings. Can anyone tell me why those walls were installed? I know that they are not part of the original station's architecture. I feel that those walls took away much of the original character of the stations.
- Subject: Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
- Message Number: 761791
- Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:34:16 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms posted by Timothy on January 09, 1998 at 04:55:10: I believe it is to prevent people from throwing things over the side onto the street.
  - Subject: Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
  - Message Number: 761797
  - Posted by: Adam
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:34:31 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms posted by Timothy on January 09, 1998 at 04:55:10: On the Astoria N line with which I am familiar, there is corrugated metal on most of the platform but towards one or both of the ends of the station, depending on which station you are talking about, there is just railing. Besides preventing people from throwing things off of the station, I think it is also needed to support a roof too. The ends of the platforms are not covered with roofs.
    - Subject: Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
    - Message Number: 761803
    - Posted by: jp
    - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:34:44 1998
      
      In Reply to: [7]Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms posted by Timothy on January 09, 1998 at 04:55:10: When I was a kid, I remember they were frosted window panes. Am I correct in remembering this?
      - Subject: Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
      - Message Number: 761808
      - Posted by: Droo
      - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:34:55 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms posted by Adam on January 09, 1998 at 10:59:55: When they were doing the #7 line Queens Blvd. reconstruction, they took away the corrugated metal walls.. the roof is supposed by beams, to which these walls are attached. They do not seem to be necessary for the structural integrity of the roof
        
        Subject: Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
        Message Number: 761810
        Posted by: Adam
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:35:00 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms posted by jp on January 09, 1998 at 12:12:58: Well, they still have the frosted windows at Queensboro Plaza.
        
        Subject: Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
        Message Number: 761824
        Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:35:32 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 09, 1998 at 09:51:21: Yeah, like other people!!! I'm sure that was part of the motivation to put that stuff up..
        
        Subject: Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
        Message Number: 761833
        Posted by: Joe M
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:35:59 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms posted by Adam on January 09, 1998 at 10:59:55: Do they also provide wind protection while at the station?
        
        Subject: Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
        Message Number: 761839
        Posted by: Gary Kee
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:36:12 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms posted by Timothy on January 09, 1998 at 04:55:10: I'm going to suspect that the walls for railings thing came about from a liabiality standpoint. The likley hood of some one tossing an object over the wall is less than thru a railing. Same for youngsters ,little ones falling thru. At least if an obvious attempt to prevent this might prevent and more serious "neglect" verdict in court. I'm no lawyar though. : )
        
        Subject: Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
        Message Number: 761841
        Posted by: Adam
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:36:16 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms posted by Joe M on January 10, 1998 at 00:27:38: I guess they do, at least from one direction. But it doesn't really help that much on those really cold days. What I really like is that electronic sign that beeps and tells you when a train is coming. They have this device on the mezannine level, near the token booth right past the turnstiles on the Astoria line. So you can wait inside the station and escape the cold until the train comes in.
        
        Subject: Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
        Message Number: 761845
        Posted by: David L.
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:36:27 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms posted by Adam on January 10, 1998 at 12:14:06: On some of the elevated stations on the Culver line, they have electric heaters on the mezzanine level.
        
        Subject: Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
        Message Number: 761847
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:36:32 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms posted by jp on January 09, 1998 at 12:12:58: IIRC, the Astoria Line had them, too. --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
        Message Number: 761848
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:36:36 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms posted by Adam on January 09, 1998 at 10:59:55: The metal walls are not required to hold up the station canopy, which is secured by beams every xx feet (I don't know the precise measurement). They weren't there as part of the original station, but the original beams and canopy steelwork, in most cases, remains. --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
        Message Number: 761858
        Posted by: John Mara
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:37:09 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms posted by Joe M on January 10, 1998 at 00:27:38: They are in part to provide wind protection for waiting customers. On the Astoria line all the Manhattan-bound platforms are fully surronded by corrugated metal. The Astoria-bound platforms, for the most part, are not. Not as many customers wait on the Astoria-bound side. It does help with the wind. Try waiting at center platform stations like Astoria Blvd. or the upper level of Queensboro Plaza on a cold windy night. With no shelter, it is cold! Safety is also an issue. Until recently, the 39th Ave/Beebe Ave station did not have the either platform surrounded. There were complaints that kids from Long Island City High School were throwing things off the platform. About four years ago the TA started putting up the corrugated metal. Two years ago LIC High moved to their new building at Broadway and 21st Street. The TA still hasn't finished the job at 39th/Beebe. They still haven't put the lights back up. What's worse, the corrugated blocks the view of the 63rd Street Connector construction site from the platforms.
        
        Subject: Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
        Message Number: 761860
        Posted by: Dan Schwartz
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:37:14 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms posted by jp on January 09, 1998 at 12:12:58: > When I was a kid, I remember they were frosted window panes. Am I > correct in remembering this? I don't think they were SUPPOSED to frosted, they just got very dirty and were never cleaned, so they appeared frosted. I know I used to see them on the Jerome Ave. line when I was a kid, and I presume most of the IRT elevated lines had them. One example of those windows still remains on the system: the south wall of the lower level at Queensboro Plaza. I suspect they were replaced with opaque metal walls because the TA realized, in the late '50s or early '60s, that it was impossible to keep window-panes clean. (The north wall at QB Plaza - where the original north half of the station was cut off - is made of heavy plate glass, and it doesn't seem to get as dirty as the individual panes on the south side did. Why not, I'm not sure. Is it cleaned now and then?)
        
        Subject: Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
        Message Number: 761927
        Posted by: jp
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:39:49 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms posted by Dan Schwartz on January 10, 1998 at 16:38:06: Yes, when I saw them as a kid, it was along the Jerome Avenue line, too.
        
        Subject: Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
        Message Number: 761956
        Posted by: a pardi
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:41:15 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms posted by jp on January 12, 1998 at 15:40:03: The corrugated walls we now see were never intended to cover up window panes which were never cleaned. as times changed vandals came along to break glass oh and to toss things or probably a crime victim over the railings(not that i'm aware of any such a crime) I guess safety comes into play when a major infrastucture change is implemented. Anyone remember the wooden platforms up to the early to mid 1970's?
        
        Subject: Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
        Message Number: 761957
        Posted by: a aprdi
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:41:17 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms posted by David L. on January 10, 1998 at 14:26:00: your right about the heaters on mezzanine levels in Brooklyn. In fact most of the station in Brooklyn have working heaters on the mezzanine, I can't say i've seen them in any other boro??
        
        Subject: Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
        Message Number: 761968
        Posted by: Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:41:47 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms posted by a pardi on January 13, 1998 at 00:17:49: Ah yes, another very missed detail...
        
        Subject: Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
        Message Number: 761982
        Posted by: Charles Fiori
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:42:35 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms posted by a aprdi on January 13, 1998 at 00:23:10: I can remember waiting for my mom to come home form work. My dad would get home earlier and he and I would drive to Willets Point on the Flushing line, and the token clerk would allow me to go through the slam gate and wait under the heater at the mezzanine, across from what used to be one of the greasiest hot dog stands in creation (which also sold Jets and Mets souvenirs.) I also remember waiting on the mezz. at 74th Street under a heater, for a Northbound 7 local to show up. (The 25 cent soft pretzels there were "off the charts" (and no, I did not eat my way throught the subway system.)
        
        Subject: Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
        Message Number: 762012
        Posted by: John Stewart
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:43:49 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms posted by Charles Fiori on January 13, 1998 at 10:39:28: I have an interesting story about heated waiting areas on the subway. At one time (this was approximately 1984/1985), I had very good friends I used to visit frequently in the Bronx. They lived in a large high-rise coop on Sedgewick. I used to take the IRT 4 to Mosholu Pkway (as I recall) and they would usually meet me at the station. One weekend evening, I was visiting and we heard severe storm warnings on the radio. I ended up staying the night and they drove me to Mosholu Pkway station the next morning. It was unbelievably cold, and I as struggled up the steps, I noticed (on the mezzanine level, I believe) what appeared to be an ancient waiting room (it also appeared to have frosted glass windows!). I entered and there was a pot belly stove that provided a scorching level of heat. I couldn't believe that such a thing could be found in New York City in the mid-80s! It was more like something you'd expect to find in a general store in West Virginia! I've always wondered from where the wood (or coal?) for heating that stove came. And who maintained it? Certainly not the token booth clerk!
        
        Subject: Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
        Message Number: 762189
        Posted by: Andrew Huie
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:51:45 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms posted by John Stewart on January 13, 1998 at 18:18:20: You know, I saw something similar on the #1! I was waiting at the 238th St. station at night on the downtown platform, when I noticed a room closed off from the public. I looked through the windows and also saw what looked like an antique waiting room, complete with either a stove or fireplace, I don't remember all the details (I haven't thought about it all til now! 8-S). Does anyone know if any other el stations have these waiting rooms and are they visible to the public?
        
        Subject: Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
        Message Number: 762192
        Posted by: Andrew Huie
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:51:51 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms posted by a pardi on January 13, 1998 at 00:17:49: Are there any wooden platforms on the Franklin Avenue shuttle? I think Franklin Avenue and possibly Park Place are wood.

Thread title: position light signals (761794)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:34:22 1998, by aaron

Subject: position light signals
Message Number: 761794
Posted by: aaron
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:34:22 1998

Last night travelling home on LIRR, I overheard engineer telling brakeman that there were 42 different sets of position light combinations. Is there any book around that documents each one of these combinations? I only know about 10 different sets.
- Subject: Re: position light signals
- Message Number: 761819
- Posted by: Steve
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:35:20 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]position light signals posted by aaron on January 09, 1998 at 10:05:55: Actually, there are about 17 different position signals shown in the LIRR rule book. I have them scanned if you are interested.
  - Subject: Re: position light signals
  - Message Number: 761823
  - Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:35:28 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: position light signals posted by Steve on January 09, 1998 at 19:00:57: _Oooo!!! OOO!!! ME! ME! ME!! Send me a copy!!!!_ :) This is something I've been trying to find for a while....
    - Subject: Re: position light signals
    - Message Number: 761842
    - Posted by: Gary
    - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:36:18 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]position light signals posted by aaron on January 09, 1998 at 10:05:55: http://wvit.wvnet.edu/~djrobi/wprrs/signals.html http://www.nycsubway.org/signals/ Do these two locations help any?
      - Subject: Re: position light signals
      - Message Number: 761862
      - Posted by: Steve
      - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:37:20 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: position light signals posted by Gary on January 10, 1998 at 12:22:45: The question was about LIRR signals. Although signal aspects on various railroads may be similar, the names and indications vary greatly from road to road. Ask any AMTRAK engineer who travels the eastern seaboard.
        
        Subject: Re: position light signals
        Message Number: 761923
        Posted by: aaron
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:39:42 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: position light signals posted by Steve on January 09, 1998 at 19:00:57: Yes, please post or e-mail!!

Thread title: Plus que ca change, plus que c'est la meme chose (761796)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:34:27 1998, by Charles Fiori

Subject: Plus que ca change, plus que c'est la meme chose
Message Number: 761796
Posted by: Charles Fiori
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:34:27 1998

In Reply to: [7]Re: Cyber-slugs or Metrocard fraud has arrived! posted by Lou from Middletown on January 09, 1998 at 09:15:42: When the token with the hollowed-out pentagonal center came out (or was it the 'bull's eye'?), I remember that some genius figured out that the Connecticut Turnpike tokens, at the time which were worth 17 1/2 cents, could work in turnstiles, when the fare was $1. (This would have been 1983 or so). They noticed at Grand Central that a lot of these Connecticut tokens were showing up (no surprise there) and so ran a sting and caught some suits who easily could have afforded full fare...I remember saying to a friend (I was at Columbia B-school at the time) that their next move was going to be to try and catch the riders coming northbound in the p.m.'s. Sure enough, next day there was a sting and they caught a bunch of people at Bowling Green and Wall St. on the Lex. The diameter on the TA and Conn. tokens was different enough that they could set the tolerance on the mechanical turnstiles to only accept the TA tokens. (Something like .89in vs. .90 in.)
- Subject: Re: Plus que ca change, plus que c'est la meme chose
- Message Number: 761798
- Posted by: Gary Jacobi
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:34:33 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]Plus que ca change, plus que c'est la meme chose posted by Charles Fiori on January 09, 1998 at 10:17:38: Keep in mind that among the "suits", any kind of chisleing practice is considered to be a demonstration of career development potential, as in "Wow, if he'd stick his neck out do that to the TA, imagine what he'd be willing to do to our customers!"
  - Subject: Re: Plus que ca change, plus que c'est la meme chose
  - Message Number: 761814
  - Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:35:08 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Plus que ca change, plus que c'est la meme chose posted by Gary Jacobi on January 09, 1998 at 11:04:39: That would have been the Bulls-Eye. I've never seen a ConnTP token (didn't they tear down their toll booths a few years back?) but I could easily see Garden State Parkway tokens making good slugs, but I think the weight would be different. GSP tokens have a brass center, and the coin is steel, as opposed to the steel center brass token the TA used. -Hank

Thread title: The Phila. Rail Transit Lines Really ARE Great (761807)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:34:53 1998, by Carl M. Rabbin

Subject: The Phila. Rail Transit Lines Really ARE Great
Message Number: 761807
Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:34:53 1998

In Reply to: [7]Re: SEPTA Question (the MFSE and Subway-Surface Cars) posted by Andrew Byler on January 09, 1998 at 13:57:21: Isn't it incredible that there is so much odd stuff about one fairly small rail transit system? When I was in college I loved riding the system. It's still great, as all our posts have shown. Boston's is quirky and varied like this also. But here we've got express service, trolley cars, 2 track widths, three types of power intake, AND you can look out the front window. And we haven't even gotten around much to discuss Lindenwold, Norristown, Sharon Hill, and Media yet.
- Subject: Re: The Phila. Rail Transit Lines Really ARE Great
- Message Number: 761834
- Posted by: david vartanoff
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:36:01 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]The Phila. Rail Transit Lines Really ARE Great posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 09, 1998 at 14:30:31: The Philly system also featured at one time an extensive system of underground passageways outside fare control following tyhe subway routes . Locust above the Camden now Lindenwold to Broad, Broad north to Arch or Race?, From PRR Suburban east as far as 11th. Definitely Ariadne territory.
  - Subject: Re: The Phila. Rail Transit Lines Really ARE Great
  - Message Number: 762014
  - Posted by: Blade-Runner
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:43:54 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]The Phila. Rail Transit Lines Really ARE Great posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 09, 1998 at 14:30:31: Where does the trolley go which runs along 2nd Street in Philadelphia (or is it 3rd?)? I see a lot about the subway/surface trolleys running out to the west, but little about this line which runs on the street downtown and appears to go quite far north. The last time I saw it (about 5 years ago) the cars were still really old ones...
    - Subject: Re: The Phila. Rail Transit Lines Really ARE Great
    - Message Number: 762236
    - Posted by: Alfonso Georeno
    - Date: Mon Jan 26 10:27:36 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]The Phila. Rail Transit Lines Really ARE Great posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 09, 1998 at 14:30:31: Carl's probably far too young to remember two other great routes: first, the old Red Arrow rail line which went from 69th Street to West Chester. A lot of it was single rail and if cars were delayed in one direction, the other had to wait at the passing point until things were straightened out. Second, and best of all, was the Liberty Bell Line from 69th Street to Allentown. This interurban used to give me a thrill, cutting as it did through fasrmers fields, etc. Why did we ever go from rail to bus? (Rhetorical question) Al
      - Subject: Re: The Phila. Rail Transit Lines Really ARE Great
      - Message Number: 762250
      - Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
      - Date: Mon Jan 26 10:28:20 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: The Phila. Rail Transit Lines Really ARE Great posted by Alfonso Georeno on January 19, 1998 at 10:38:31: Actually, I remember the line down Route 3 to West Chester. I don't know if I actually saw trains on it, but the tracks were there in 1967-8, my freshman year of college. They went down the center island of the road.
        
        Subject: Re: The Phila. Rail Transit Lines Really ARE Great
        Message Number: 762256
        Posted by: Dan Lawrence
        Date: Mon Jan 26 10:28:32 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: The Phila. Rail Transit Lines Really ARE Great posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 19, 1998 at 22:29:18: What Carl saw were the former West Chester/Ardmore tracks west on West Chester Pike. By 1967 the tracks were there only to provide access to the Llanerch Car house of PST. By the time of the SEPTA takeover in 1969-70 PST was attempting to sell the property and SEPTA only had a month-to-month lease on the facility. By 1972 the streetcars were in a new home in the 69th Street El yard, where they (and the 1981 Kawawsaki replacements) have remained to this day.

Thread title: Last post! (promise) (761809)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:34:57 1998, by DB

Subject: Last post! (promise)
Message Number: 761809
Posted by: DB
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:34:57 1998

In Reply to: [7]SEPTA Question (the MFL and Trolleys) posted by DB on January 08, 1998 at 13:32:14: This will be the last post in this thread that I will post (promise)... I personally would just walk to 20th street from where I currently live, or take the MFL to 15 and walk up. It was not until someone mentioned that the 20th street station was an idea, that I talked about it more. The point of my post was more of a question of the planning, or lack there of, in the SEPTA system, and what, if I was the enigneer I intend to be with unlimited money, what I would do with SEPTA. Philly has a great blue line, and it runs pretty well. I agree with the idea of expanding it, preferably south, perhaps as a surface train along I-95 to serve South Philly and the proposed Riverfront/Penns Landing Projects. If this were to ever happen, I would like to see this have a different designation color and name. (is "Front Line" too war-like?) I have not ridden on the el portions, so I do not know how it is set up (maybe I will do a field study tomorrow) but I could see Median service the easiest solution, with park and rides easilly accessible. Alas, that magic money stands in the way again. I would like to thank all those who responded.

Thread title: Separated Expresses and Locals at RR stations (Was SEPTA Stuff) (761816)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:35:12 1998, by Carl M. Rabbin

Subject: Separated Expresses and Locals at RR stations (Was SEPTA Stuff)
Message Number: 761816
Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:35:12 1998

In Reply to: [7]Re: SEPTA's Broad St Subway: What's Wrong with the City Hall Station, Anyway? posted by Gary Jacobi on January 09, 1998 at 13:37:22: They also have the locals and expresses separated at Atlantic Avenue on the IRT, which is at the LIRR terminal. But, again, either one of our explanations could be the reason.

Thread title: The more things change, the more they remain the same (761817)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:35:15 1998, by Charles Fiori

Subject: The more things change, the more they remain the same
Message Number: 761817
Posted by: Charles Fiori
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:35:15 1998

In Reply to: [7]Re: Plus que ca change, plus que c'est la meme chose posted by Hank Eisenstein on January 09, 1998 at 17:00:56: Hank they definitely were from the Connecticut Turnpike, before they removed the booths. Buying tokens in bulk allowed you to get through all the booths for 1/2 price. (Reg. price was 35 cents.). When a spate of these things were found at Grand Central, it did not take Stations and Transit Police long to figure out what they had to do. One of my classmates at the time lived in Connecticut and she was considering going out and getting a bagful, but decided to pass after I convinced her that it was a bad idea. Amazingly, the old mechanical turnstiles could set their tolerances pretty thinly, allowing reg. TA tokens to pass but not accepting the Connecticuts. When a sting was set-up, they also had turnstile maintainers on hand so that if one jammed, it could be easily determined if a Connecticut (or other slug) had been inserted, or simply a bent or defective TA token. The Connecticuts had the turnpike symbol on one side (or maybe it was the ConnDOT symbol, similar to that on the front of some M-2s)
- Subject: Re: The more things change, the more they remain the same
- Message Number: 761827
- Posted by: Adam
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:35:41 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]The more things change, the more they remain the same posted by Charles Fiori on January 09, 1998 at 17:37:11: I have this book from 1971 called "Steal This Book" by Abbie Hoffman. In this book, it describes, among many other revolutionary activities, which foreign coins fit the subway token in use in 1971 (I'm not sure which one it was). Here's what was written in the book: New York Subway Tokens Danish 25 Ore Piece - Works in 95% of all subway turnstiles. A very safe coin to use since it will not jam the turnstile. It is 5/1000th of an inch bigger than a token. Portugese 50 Centavo Piece - The average Portugese Centavo Piece is 2/1000th of an inch smaller than a token. Jamaican Half Penny, Bahama Penny, and Australian Schilling - These coins are 12/1000 to 15/1000 of an inch smaller than a token. They work in about 80% of all turnstiles. We have also had good success with French 1 Franc Piece (WW II issue), Spanish 10 Centavo Piece, Nicaraguan 25 Centavo Piece. I have quoted the above from the aforementioned book. None of this information is obviously of use at this time as the token is obviously different, I just find it interesting. Nor do I espouse the use of slugs or foreign coins in turnstiles. But I would recommend the book.
  - Subject: Re: The more things change, the more they remain the same
  - Message Number: 761853
  - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:36:53 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: The more things change, the more they remain the same posted by Adam on January 09, 1998 at 21:41:08: ... and the Russian Penny worked for a while, too, I remember this in the late 70s. --Mark
    - Subject: Re: The more things change, the more they remain the same
    - Message Number: 761911
    - Posted by: Brian
    - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:39:15 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: The more things change, the more they remain the same posted by Mark S Feinman on January 10, 1998 at 15:33:27: I guess the ultimate job for a coin collector or token collector would be to work at the MTA checking all the tokens. (Doubt they would let them have em free however) But boy the things one might just see. ha
      - Subject: Re: The more things change, the more they remain the same
      - Message Number: 762136
      - Posted by: Serafin jr
      - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:49:12 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: The more things change, the more they remain the same posted by Brian on January 12, 1998 at 02:34:35: Just jump the turnstiles. hope the TA cop aren't looking

Thread title: Commuter Signals/Subway Signals (761821)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:35:24 1998, by Steve

Subject: Commuter Signals/Subway Signals
Message Number: 761821
Posted by: Steve
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:35:24 1998

I am currently collecting scans of RR signals from various properties. I would be greatly appreciative if anyone has scans of the signal pages of any railroad's rule book. I am especially interested in CTA, SEPTA, and MBTA.
- Subject: Re: Commuter Signals/Subway Signals
- Message Number: 761926
- Posted by: Joe Cielecki
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:39:48 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Commuter Signals/Subway Signals posted by Steve on January 09, 1998 at 19:11:51: Copyright laws may prohibit free"scans" from rule books. Why don't you try calling the aformentioned properties and ask for a "real" copy?

Thread title: Re: July,1,1998 and Record Attempt (761828)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:35:45 1998, by Lou from Brooklyn

Subject: Re: July,1,1998 and Record Attempt
Message Number: 761828
Posted by: Lou from Brooklyn
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:35:45 1998

In Reply to: [7]Re: July,1,1998 posted by David Pirmann on January 08, 1998 at 10:37:51: So what does this DayPass do to the record attempt?? The now one fare allows you to get on and off, I wonder if this redefines the rules of the attempt of all stations in 24hours for one fare!!! (No I'm not a lawyer, just related to one).
- Subject: Re: July,1,1998 and Record Attempt
- Message Number: 761829
- Posted by: Peter Rosa
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:35:50 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Re: July,1,1998 and Record Attempt posted by Lou from Brooklyn on January 09, 1998 at 22:20:27: Well, to keep future record attempts to the same set of rules as past ones, I'd say that you have to ride the entire system without exiting the fare-paid area, regardless of whether a day pass is used.
  - Subject: Re: July,1,1998 and Record Attempt
  - Message Number: 761960
  - Posted by: a.aprdi
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:41:25 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: July,1,1998 and Record Attempt posted by Peter Rosa on January 09, 1998 at 23:14:43: i believe in years past when any records were attempted in riding the entire nyc subway its was done without leaving the fare paid area hence no day(unlimited use pass)pass
    - Subject: Re: July,1,1998 and Record Attempt
    - Message Number: 762188
    - Posted by: Andrew Huie
    - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:51:44 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: July,1,1998 and Record Attempt posted by a.aprdi on January 13, 1998 at 00:52:30: I hope this doesn't apply to Franklin Avenue station, that might crimp whatever path is used.
      - Subject: Re: July,1,1998 and Record Attempt
      - Message Number: 762196
      - Posted by: subway-buff
      - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:52:01 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: July,1,1998 and Record Attempt posted by a.aprdi on January 13, 1998 at 00:52:30: As official clerk of this group I have this comment. Since we plan on riding the system on *one* fare, a day pass, or whatever they call it, would not be any use to us. Once you enter the system you can stay "forever" (at least till the next strike if there is one.) Or a watermain break forces evacuation of a section. Even if the paper emwtrocard transfter ta Franklin Shuttle is used we still paid only one fare to ride the system.

Thread title: Re: Tunnel to Staten Island South of Whitehall I SAW IT!! (761831)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:35:55 1998, by Jeff

Subject: Re: Tunnel to Staten Island South of Whitehall I SAW IT!!
Message Number: 761831
Posted by: Jeff
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:35:55 1998

In Reply to: [7]Tunnel to Staten Island South of Whitehall I SAW IT!! (sorry Hank) posted by Lou from Brooklyn on January 06, 1998 at 12:56:22: On the northbound N train today I saw a tunnel perpendicular to the whitehall tube just south of the whitehall station wiht lights track and all. what was that?
- Subject: Re: Tunnel to Staten Island South of Whitehall I SAW IT!!
- Message Number: 761836
- Posted by: Timothy Speer
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:36:05 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Re: Tunnel to Staten Island South of Whitehall I SAW IT!! posted by Jeff on January 09, 1998 at 23:40:54: Could it have been where the M branches off up Nassau Street?
  - Subject: Re: Tunnel to Staten Island South of Whitehall I SAW IT!!
  - Message Number: 761955
  - Posted by: a pardi
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:41:13 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Tunnel to Staten Island South of Whitehall I SAW IT!! posted by Timothy Speer on January 10, 1998 at 11:42:13: the tracks and light you saw are the Nassau St cut to the J M Z. Just south of Whithall st around 100-150 feet as the train turns left into the Montague st Tube towards your right you will see the tunnel wall which would have been the Staten Island connector.

Thread title: Astoria Line (761832)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:35:57 1998, by Adam

Subject: Astoria Line
Message Number: 761832
Posted by: Adam
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:35:57 1998

Hi everybody! I was wondering if anybody could help me. I am a volunteer for this site and I'm working on the Astoria line. I am trying to write a history of the Astoria line, including Queensboro Plaza, but I've been having trouble finding information on this. If anybody has info about the development of the Astoria Line or can point me in the direction of some good sources, please e-mail me or just post here. I'll try to take all the incoming info and write a coherent history of the line. Thanks!!!
- Subject: Re: Astoria Line
- Message Number: 761884
- Posted by: Mellow One
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:38:19 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Astoria Line posted by Adam on January 10, 1998 at 00:02:58: The ERA, Elecric Railroaders Association, has a storehose of NYC transit info. If we can get someone to post or send us the address of the ERA, we can become members and we may have access to that storehouse.
  - Subject: Re: Astoria Line
  - Message Number: 761910
  - Posted by: D-Train
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:39:14 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Astoria Line posted by Mellow One on January 11, 1998 at 15:05:02: Enclosed is the address for the New York Division of the E.R.A P.O. Box 3001 New York, N.Y. 10008
    - Subject: Re: Astoria Line
    - Message Number: 761935
    - Posted by: Adam
    - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:40:18 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: Astoria Line posted by D-Train on January 12, 1998 at 02:02:36: Thanks for the address! I'll write to them about becoming a member.
      - Subject: Re: Astoria Line
      - Message Number: 762050
      - Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
      - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:45:32 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Astoria Line posted by Adam on January 12, 1998 at 18:33:47: The Astoria Line did not come into being until the era of the dual contracts, when it and the Corona (Flushing) line were constructed to serve the northern part of Queens. These were perhaps the most cooperative portion of the project since both the IRT and BMT would share the routes and operate them jointly. Unfortunately, even though both systems operated their own cars on the lines, the BMT lacked a connection into Manhattan until the 60th St. Tunnel was completed. Queensborough Plaza Station was built with eight tracks on two levels, served by four island platforms. The BMT operated the northern half of the station and the IRT ran the southern end. The southernmost pair of tracks connected to the Steinway Tunnel, while the next set north connected to the Second Av. El. Both of these could serve either line in Queens via scissors crossovers east of the platforms on either level. The mortherly pair of tracks curved to the Astoria Line and the southerly pair connected to the Corona Line. The BMT originally operated to tail tracks west of the station, maintaining the upper level east, lower level west configuration along with Astoria north/Corona South. This was altered when the 60th St. tunnel was opened and connected to the northerly pair of tracks, which then connected to a easterly tail track for reversing direction. The BMT tracks descended to a lower level east of the station for a flying junction with the IRT. When the Second Av. el was closed in 1942, the north half of the IRT station fell into disuse. About 1950? it was decided to extend the BMT Subway teains to Astoria and discontinue the joint operation. A new connection was provided from the 60th St. Tunnel to the former 2nd Av. portion of the IRT station, and the platforms were cut back there and along the Astoria Line. The entire north half of Queensboro Plaza Station was abandoned, along with most of the flying junction. Disused trackways can be seen descending to the former lower level along both existing lines, but the active trackways are those of the original IRT. One set of crossovers remains on the upper level as the Flushing Line's only connection to the rest of the system. Gerry
        
        Subject: Re: Astoria Line
        Message Number: 762115
        Posted by: Mellow One
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:48:18 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Astoria Line posted by D-Train on January 12, 1998 at 02:02:36: Thanks for the ERA address. The last addess I have is: 145 Greenwich St. NY 6, NY Note the postall zone, not the Zip code.
        
        Subject: Re: Astoria Line
        Message Number: 762204
        Posted by: Ray Ottulich
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:52:33 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Astoria Line posted by Gerry O'Regan on January 14, 1998 at 12:09:47: Any Photos of the whole complex around?

Thread title: Priorities (761846)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:36:30 1998, by Mike Rothenberg

Subject: Priorities
Message Number: 761846
Posted by: Mike Rothenberg
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:36:30 1998

It's interesting to see the different subjects that people write about here. Some get quite a number of follow-ups. Though the range of subects is broad, I've gotten the feeling that somehow, there isn't a sense of priorities - what is and isn't important, and what kind of effort this forum can generate to really accomplish something useful to New York transit riders. Specifically, I'm referring to the Manhattan Bridge train problems, which alread have shut 2 of the 4 tracks and are expected to eventually put all 4 out of commission. There have been some postings on this. But the sense that, as a group of people interested in transit, we have an opportunity (and perhaps an obligation) to show leadership where it's lacking in the politicians and others, doesn't seem to have developed. I'm both surprised and disheartened. I'm willing to say that for me, priorities in transit operations are first, to maintain, and prevent the loss of (or provide the necessary alternatives to) existing transit facilities, and second, to construct new ones. I cannot see how the tremendous expense of the (needed) 2nd Ave. subway should come before taking the steps needed to avoid the transit nightmare awaiting tens of thousands ofBrooklyn-based, or -bound passengers, when the Manhattan Bridge is closed to all subway trains. Surely, there's some way people accessing this forum can bring the matter to the attention of the riding public, including cost estimates for various alternatives that provide ADEQUATE substitution. Perhaps the Rutgers connection is part of an adequate alternative, but it's not enough. Access to both the Rutgers and Cranberry tunnels with appropriate connections on both the Manhattan and Brooklyn sides would be better (already was proposed on this forum). Maybe an entire new East River tunnel with Manhattan connections both to the Broadway and 6th Ave. lines would be best. The point is, maybe there should be more intensive focus of this forum on this matter, with the aim of making sure an appropriate solution is found, funded and built. A well-planned outreach program should help. Obviously, it will be necessary to bring the politicians and transit managers "on board".
- Subject: Re: Priorities
- Message Number: 761882
- Posted by: David Pirmann - web site host
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:38:15 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Priorities posted by Mike Rothenberg on January 10, 1998 at 14:55:07: Mike, You've got some valid points, in that people need to get more involved in order to get things done. But the question is, is this the forum for it? Consider the negative points: 1. We're not a group. We don't meet or hold meetings. We don't "speak with a single voice". 2. We're not all in the same geographic area. Many of the posters here don't even live in or near New York City. 3. It was created as a "subway-fan" site not a transit advocacy site. There are some such sites out there, like the Regional Plan Associaion (www.rpa.org). 4. It's my opinion as the site host that the MTA attitude toward this site is that we are considered "rogue" at best. Larry Reuter et al. are not reading this site for ideas. In order to champion specific causes, like fixing the Manhattan Bridge, you are going to need an organization of people- people who live in the city and depend on the project in some form. On a site like this, where people literally come from all over the country (and the world), it is extremely difficult to find enough (e.g.) Brooklynites who would be willing to get together to work on an advocacy project like the Manhattan Bridge. You aren't seeing the interest in advocacy projects because for many contributors, not only does it not affect them, but why would a politician in New York state/city care what a transit fan from some other part of the country considers important? It's easy to say "100 people on the SubTalk bulletin board support Project X" but then when the politicos find out that only 1% of those people are a voting member of their district, the support is meaningless. So, my thoughts on the matter are if there are projects that are important to you, you have to campaign for them amongst people who are affected and who will listen. Go to the Borough council meetings. Go to the Neighborhood improvement district meetings. Go to the MTA public hearings. Join the various rail transit advocacy groups like NARP, RPA, Transportation Alternatives, etc. Invite your council representatives, borough president, MTA president to meetings in which your cause is presented. The way to get things done is not to get some rag-tag group of webhead transit fans on your side. It will not bring you the support and legitimacy that your cause requires. All IMHO. YMMV. -Dave
  - Subject: Re: Priorities
  - Message Number: 761943
  - Posted by: Peter Gray
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:40:45 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Priorities posted by David Pirmann - web site host on January 11, 1998 at 14:45:40: David: In addition to being a great web-site host, you've also got some good ideas on community involvement. However, I'm afraid community advocacy, however worthwhile, is unlikely to get a lot done to solve the Manhattan Bridge repair problem. The issue cuts much deeper than that. Most of the people here continually express the hope that 'the city', or 'the MTA' will 'do something', 'do the right thing'. I'm amazed at the complacency in thought that assumes that transit systems, bridges, roads, etc. should be publicly owned. This thinking represents a bankrupt mentality which is fast disappearing in the rest of the world, but lingers on in New York, the city with the highest tax regime in the country, a city which continues to deteriorate despite an economic boom in the rest of the US. I realize NY has always been a bastion of old-time, democrat/socialist style 'bigger-government-is-better' thinking, but I would have thought people would be ready for something different by now. Why has no one woken up to the fact that NY City and State agencies screw up virtually everything they try to run, and always have? 'The City' is inherently incapable of running an efficient system because it lacks the correct incentives. Rather than being motivated by profit achieved by delivering a service consumers want, it is a bureaucracy whose sole purpose is self-perpetuation achieved via politically-directed funding allocation. Whenever money runs out, the city simply raises taxes and 'seizes it', driving away profitable businesses by the cartload. Is it any surprise that NY, home to 200 of the Fortune 500 Corporations in 1960, today is HQ location for fewer than 50? New York's transit systems were built by private companies pursuing profit. They stopped making money due to changes in transportation patterns largely brought on by government-engineered subsidies for automobiles, by competition from tax-payer funded transit systems, by corrupt city administrations & labor unions determined to hamstring private companies not in their pocket, and by excessive city regulation as to what fares could be charged, and how operations should be run. In short, the grand old tradition for which Gotham is world-famous. The NY subway system should be privatized, with the purchaser free to charge whatever fares the market will bear, and run whatever routes riders want. Unprofitable routes that people don't want closed could be subsidized by the city, but the emphasis would be on a money-making operation. The income to the city from selling this asset, as run-down as it is, would be huge, and might also be structured to yield ongoing income. The bridges (TBTA?) in NY could also be sold off, either piecemeal or as a system. Many precedents exist for this. Private operators would be responsible for repairing/maintaining/rebuilding their assets and would have an incentive to do so because they would charge whatever tolls (toll-collection via automated system) they wanted. Interestingly, after years of mismanagement, the Port Authority finally had the good sense to award a concession to operate Kennedy Airport and construct the new International Arrivals Building to a private company (Schipol Airport Authority). The $1 Billion cost has been privately raised on a non-recourse base via a 144A bond issue. Want to bet JFK will improve? London is privatizing it's underground, and the British have already privatized vast portions of the national rail system. Sydney is building a privately funded/owned airport rail link. More than half of Tokyo's urban rail network is privately-owned, and highly profitable. The alternative is the continued limping along with a crumbling infrastructure base which has brought us to the Manhattan Bridge situation. And as we all know, the worst is yet to come. As ridiculous as it seems, just as it took Donald Trump to finally get the Wollman Skating rink restored after years of city incompetence, it will take private entrepreneurship to restore NY's infrastructure. I realize that the idea a private firm might - just might - do better than the MTA is heresy to many readers. And I must admit as a native New Yorker now resident abroad, it hurts me to come to some of the conclusions I've reached, but one thing is clear: the old-style 'city-run' paradigm doesn't work anymore, if it ever did. For their own posperity and that of the city they love, New Yorkers need to get their heads out of the civil service mentality of the depression and into the modern world of private initiative.
    - Subject: Re: Priorities
    - Message Number: 761953
    - Posted by: a pardi
    - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:41:08 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: Priorities posted by Peter Gray on January 12, 1998 at 21:47:34: Has anyoone stopped to consider THAT the new york city transit system ORIGINATED as PRIVATE for profit owned systems that onto their demise were taken over by New York City? everyone bitches and moans about the cost of $1.50 for a subway token which is A FLAT fare system, the morons who now ride the system can't figure how to use metrocard you would want them to pay by distance and then user their card to exit the system?? pulleezz. Yes the bridges and tunnels cost $3.50 and they are in the worst shape of any I have seen. BUt aren't we trying to advocate PUBLIC transportation? pollution of our air by cars and taxis and are the tip of the iceburg but the time wasted by traffic is a waste of labor dollars across the board. opps I changed subject.. privated ownership of bus and subway in some ways sounds good but what can a company charge is determined by the public utility commision profit i don't think it'll happen.
      - Subject: Re: Priorities
      - Message Number: 761985
      - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
      - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:42:43 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Priorities posted by Peter Gray on January 12, 1998 at 21:47:34: It all sounds promising, but keep in mind one political fact of life; any reversion of these transportation facilities to "Private Enterprise" would have to be loaded down with review boards and/or oversight comittees in order to placate the public who would suspect a rip-off. These are the mechanisms which contribute to the unresponsiveness of bureaucracies, so the worst aspects of municipal operation would still be present.
        
        Subject: Re: Priorities
        Message Number: 762029
        Posted by: Mike Rothenberg
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:44:33 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Priorities posted by David Pirmann - web site host on January 11, 1998 at 14:45:40: Dave, I appreciate your thoughtful reply. I was born and raised in Brooklyn and have lived out west for many, many years. So, unfortunately, I can't help in the needed effort, as you so aptly described. If there are readers who can help get this addressed with appropriate Manhattan Bridge replacement infrastructure(s), please do so. If there are organizations already existing that can tackle this problem, they should work to develop a coordinated approach. As I mentioned in my earlier posting, I think preservation and maintenance (or providing appropriate alternatives) of existing infrastructure (e.g., the Manhattan Bridge problem) is a higher priority than constructing new facilities. Wouldn't it feel good, at some time in the future, to know that you played a role in seeing that tens of thousands of southern Brooklyn subway riders were not abandoned, but had adequate service into Manhattan, as a result of your efforts to provide adequate Bridge substitute infrastructure? I'm confident something constructive (no pun intended) can come from a well-planned and coordinated effort. Mike Rothenberg
        
        Subject: Re: Priorities
        Message Number: 762030
        Posted by: Mike Rothenberg
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:44:36 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Priorities posted by Mike Rothenberg on January 14, 1998 at 00:49:44: My above e-mail wasn't directed just to Dave. I should have been clearer that it was aimed at all readers. Mike Rothenberg
        
        Subject: Re: Priorities
        Message Number: 762239
        Posted by: Dan Schwartz
        Date: Mon Jan 26 10:27:43 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Priorities posted by Peter Gray on January 12, 1998 at 21:47:34: In theory, I agreee with Peter Gray. Private enterprise generally can solve problems a lot more efficiently than government agencies can. I would like to see a lot less government in all areas of life, and over the long haul (a matter of several decades), I believe our society will move in that direction. To help bring about that end, I support and belong to the Libertarian Party, and urge others to do likewise. But to get back to the issue at hand, private operation of the East River bridges, or of the NYC subway, is just not not something that is going to happen any time soon. That is reality, and any proposed solution to current problems has to deal with that reality. The problem with the Manhattan Bridge is basically an engineering problem. The bridge was designed poorly for the purpose it needs to serve. Trains running on the outside tracks cause torsion, which eventually weakens the structure of the bridge. Since 1) it is an engineering problem 2) people who have a financial incentive are the ones likely to find a solution, and 3) outright sale of the bridge is just not going to happen, how about this. Let the State of NY hold a contest or competition in which any engineering firms would be encouraged to submit proposals. Any company which comes up with a workable solution to the problem (which so far no one has done) will get a cash prize, and/or a contract to implement their solution. This provides the incentives of market competition while recognizing the political realities. While I am no engineer, it would seem that any proposed solution to the problem would have to do one of three things: 1) Replace fixed joints with bearings that will allow the bridge deck to rotate slightly as trains go past, without damaging the bridge, just as tall buildings are now designed to sway in the wind. 2) Design some system for distributing the stresses caused by torsion forces so that the effects will not cause cumulative damage to the bridge, or 3) Find a way to move the existing tracks to a new location in the center of the bridge. The central area would apparently need to be widened (at the expense of the outer sections now used for trains) and reinforced, and paths for autos to use what remained of the outer sections provided when construction was complete.
        
        Subject: Re: Priorities
        Message Number: 762503
        Posted by: Adam
        Date: Fri Jan 30 14:19:05 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Priorities posted by David Pirmann - web site host on January 11, 1998 at 14:45:40: >4. It's my opinion as the site host that the MTA attitude toward this site >is that we are considered "rogue" at best. Larry Reuter >et al. are not reading this site for ideas. I'd just like to respond to this part of the posting. I would like to think that we are not renegades plotting against the MTA but that we are serious railfans who are among the few who take the time and give thought to subway and bus operations on a day-to-day basis. Although we do tend to disagree with the MTA at times, myself included, I still think that we still have the utmost respect for those who run such a large city agency. Many of us on here have good ideas that are meant to just let the MTA and other railfans know what we're thinking. And there are a lot of MTA employees here too, who take part in meaningful dialogue along with everybody else. And I'd also like to take this time to apologize if I sometimes rant and rave, but sometimes I feel so strongly about things I can't help myself. But maybe we should try to befriend the MTA and perhaps something like a chat room could be set up on here in which selected employees or knowlegable railfans could host a forum in which they answer questions and exchange in dialogue with others on this site. This would be a great area of growth for this site.
        
        Subject: Re: Priorities
        Message Number: 762505
        Posted by: Brian
        Date: Fri Jan 30 14:19:09 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Priorities posted by Adam on January 11, 1998 at 23:36:14: Just had a quick question about the problem of the Manhattan bridge is it a matter for the MTA?? Or is such a project shared by other agencies as well?? I know it is also a auto bridge as well correct will the closure also effect those who drive into Manhattan? Just wondering is all
        
        Subject: Re: Priorities
        Message Number: 762513
        Posted by: David Pirmann
        Date: Fri Jan 30 14:19:24 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Priorities posted by Adam on January 11, 1998 at 23:36:14: By rogue, I didn't mean that we were plotting against the MTA. I was speaking more along the lines of what I perceive their view to be regarding this site. It's popular, it's got stuff they would never dream of putting on their own site, and it's not very "politically correct" sometimes. As an example, and this isn't directly involving the MTA... the City of New York has a web page listing sites about NYC. We were on it for a while and one day, gone. I asked their webmaster why. I was told that we were removed because this site showed subway cars/stations with graffiti. So that's what I meant by rogue. As for a chat room, we've already got one: this is it. There's no reason it can't have discussions as you suggest. -Dave
        
        Subject: Re: Priorities
        Message Number: 762515
        Posted by: Peter Gray
        Date: Fri Jan 30 14:19:33 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Priorities posted by Gary Jacobi on January 13, 1998 at 11:50:41: You raise a good point, but that's exactly the problem. Private ownership hemmed in by 'review boards' & 'oversight committees' would effectively be the same as public ownership (this is the type of thing which put most of the private companies out of business to begin with). But why do people assume they will be "ripped-off" by a private company, but not by the city? Do people really believe NY City does a good job of management? If people thought the private company charged too much and didn't deliver decent service, they could choose NOT to use the system. If enough people agreed with this, the private company would go bankrupt, and the owners would be out on the street. Since the owners (which might include employees, etc. through stock-ownership plans) would presumably want to avoid this, they would have an incentive to deliver good value for money - an incentive the MTA does NOT have (if ridership falls because the system is crap, nobody at the TA necessarily loses their jobs). I would assert New Yorkers are currently being ripped off right now as they are offered nothing but a filthy, deteriorating system run by city hacks who don't give a damn because they have nothing to lose. But there you have it. New Yorkers expect so little, and they get it every time...

Thread title: Stan Fischler's Book (was: Re: NYW&B) (761849)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:36:39 1998, by Mark S Feinman

Subject: Stan Fischler's Book (was: Re: NYW&B)
Message Number: 761849
Posted by: Mark S Feinman
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:36:39 1998

In Reply to: [8]Re: NYW&B posted by Peter Rosa on January 09, 1998 at 21:31:13: > While I've enjoyed the book a great deal, there are some rather > questionable points and omissions. I am sure this will start a lively discussion. Could you elaborate on some of these points or omissions? --Mark
- Subject: Re: Stan Fischler's Book (was: Re: NYW&B)
- Message Number: 761854
- Posted by: Peter Rosa
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:36:56 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Stan Fischler's Book (was: Re: NYW&B) posted by Mark S Feinman on January 10, 1998 at 15:04:49: Just to name a couple, the book says that the plaque honoring the Beach subway is located at the unused lower level of the City Hall BMT station; this has been shown to be untrue. The book also mentions Mayor Hylan's hatred of the subway system, resulting from his having been fired from a motorman job in his younger days. That story *could* be true, but there are a lot of doubts about it, and the book recounts it as Gospel truth. As an example of an omission, the book has an interesting recounting of the Union Square wreck in 1991, that focuses in some depth on the motorman's pre- and post-accident behavoir, yet never mentions his name. Yet I don't mean to nitpick. Even with these deficiencies it's still an excellent book, well worth the price.
  - Subject: Re: Stan Fischler's Book (was: Re: NYW&B)
  - Message Number: 761875
  - Posted by: subway-buff
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:38:00 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Stan Fischler's Book (was: Re: NYW&B) posted by Peter Rosa on January 10, 1998 at 15:39:43: I found this error/omission: In his charts of when lines opened he does not list the Archer Extension of the E/J/Z Line and does not list the 63rd street line although he mentions these in the text of his book.
    - Subject: Re: Stan Fischler's Book (was: Re: NYW&B)
    - Message Number: 761886
    - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
    - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:38:23 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: Stan Fischler's Book (was: Re: NYW&B) posted by subway-buff on January 11, 1998 at 08:51:25: I think the summary of line openings was from an older ERA publication that listed them (credit for those pages is given to the ERA) and that publication most likely predates the revision of his book. The author probably didn't want to alter the charts. --Mark
      - Subject: Re: Stan Fischler's Book (was: Re: NYW&B)
      - Message Number: 761888
      - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
      - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:38:29 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Stan Fischler's Book (was: Re: NYW&B) posted by Peter Rosa on January 10, 1998 at 15:39:43: > The book also mentions Mayor Hylan's hatred of the subway system, > resulting from his having been fired from a motorman job in his younger > days. That story *could* be true, but there are a lot of doubts about it, > and the book recounts it as Gospel truth. Until recently, that's what I believed, too. I've read it in various sources, not just Fischler's. However, I just finished re-reading Frederick Kramer's "Building the Independent Subway". (It's amazing how many subway books you can finish being laid up with the Flu!) Mr Kramer writes: "In his younger days, Hylan had been a motorman for the BRT and had been discharged. Some observers link that event with his unrelenting drive to have the city take over the private companies. While this motivation is consistent with human frailty, it must be remembered that in his role as mayor, Hylan was playing hardball in the political arena with what had become a popular notion, so popular in fact that it has gotten him elected once and would do so again. Hylan voiced what was a Tammany Hall rallying cry and a Hearst publication cause celebre. As was learned much later, Hylan's own private expectations did not fully coincide with his public pronouncements". The book never discusses what was learned much later, although I suppose a book about Hylan might have the answers. --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: Stan Fischler's Book (was: Re: NYW&B)
        Message Number: 761908
        Posted by: Adam
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:39:10 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Stan Fischler's Book (was: Re: NYW&B) posted by Peter Rosa on January 10, 1998 at 15:39:43: >As an example of an omission, the book has an interesting recounting of >the Union Square wreck in 1991, that focuses in some >depth on the motorman's pre- and post-accident behavior, yet never >mentions his name. Yes, I found this to be a glaring omission as well. I remember the wreck and the motorman's name was Robert Ray. Otherwise an excellent volume. I particularly enjoy how animately he describes the wrecks, making you feel as if you were right there when it was happening.
        
        Subject: Re: Stan Fischler's Book (was: Re: NYW&B)
        Message Number: 761917
        Posted by: Peter Rosa
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:39:26 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Stan Fischler's Book (was: Re: NYW&B) posted by Mark S Feinman on January 11, 1998 at 15:21:44: After reading your description of the Sea Beach (N) line, I just realized another omission in Stan Fischler's book - in his line-by-line ratings, he doesn't mention that the N travels through the Coney Island yards and offers an interesting (if partially obscured) closeup view of an area that's otherwise out of public view.

Thread title: Brooklyn Trolleys (Re: Last day of service questions) (761852)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:36:48 1998, by Mark S Feinman

Subject: Brooklyn Trolleys (Re: Last day of service questions)
Message Number: 761852
Posted by: Mark S Feinman
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:36:48 1998

In Reply to: [8]Last day of service questions posted by Alan Follett on January 08, 1998 at 13:59:24: The last trolleys to run in Brooklyn ran on October 31st, 1956. There were three runs left: Church Ave, McDonald Ave and the Coney Island Avenue routes. Of the three, the Church Ave line was the last one to stop operating when PCC car 1039 left the 39th St (Bklyn) Ferry Loop at 5:36am and arrived at McDonald Av & Church Av at 5:52am. --Mark
- Subject: Re: Brooklyn Trolleys (Re: Last day of service questions)
- Message Number: 762032
- Posted by: Keith A. Reinsdorf
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:44:47 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Brooklyn Trolleys (Re: Last day of service questions) posted by Mark S Feinman on January 10, 1998 at 15:14:57: While it is correct that the Church Avenue Trolley last ran on October 31, 1956, the McDonald Avenue Trolley was in operation into early/mid 1957.

Thread title: Re: 6av express, local, and PATH trains (761863)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:37:22 1998, by Dan Schwartz

Subject: Re: 6av express, local, and PATH trains
Message Number: 761863
Posted by: Dan Schwartz
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:37:22 1998

In Reply to: [8]Re: 6av watermain break and the PATH trains posted by Gary Jacobi on January 09, 1998 at 12:32:47: The express tunnel was built as early as 1964? Did it take until 1967 to get it finished (get rid of the water, install rails and signals...) or did it sit finished for a while before it opened for passenger service in November of '67? Was there any public awareness of the tunneling project while it was underway, any signs on the surface (or even from 34th St. or W 4th St. station) of what was happening? As for the relative locations of the PATH tracks and the local subway tracks, it can probably best be gauged from the 23rd St. station. To go from the subway to the PATH, you go down one level, then back up a short flight of stairs, shorter than the one you went down.

Thread title: Phila. Lines and the Underground Passages. (761865)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:37:27 1998, by Carl M. Rabbin

Subject: Phila. Lines and the Underground Passages.
Message Number: 761865
Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:37:27 1998

In Reply to: [7]Re: The Phila. Rail Transit Lines Really ARE Great posted by david vartanoff on January 10, 1998 at 00:49:50: I remember you could walk underground from Broad and Spruce St. or from 12 or 16 and Locust to 11th and Market or to 17th and Market or to Broad and Arch St. along the Broad Street passageway, outside the paid area but completely below ground. I think they closed some it off because of robberies.
- Subject: Re: Phila. Lines and the Underground Passages.
- Message Number: 761896
- Posted by: Bobw
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:38:46 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Phila. Lines and the Underground Passages. posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 10, 1998 at 21:11:22: In Phila this is known as the "concourse" and it's still there. It's not used very much, except for cold and wet days, but it's still quite extensive. It's also much cleaner now that it is closed at 1 AM nightly for cleaning, etc. The homeless must find another place to sleep and do their other functions (much of which contributed to the lack of cleanliness). The only significant portion which is gone is that north of City Hall, which is sealed off. New and rehabbed portions were added in the '80's and the City is considering efforts to continue improvements. Of course, elevators will be chief among them.
  - Subject: Re: Phila. Lines and the Underground Passages.
  - Message Number: 762235
  - Posted by: Alfonso Georeno
  - Date: Mon Jan 26 10:27:33 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Phila. Lines and the Underground Passages. posted by Bobw on January 11, 1998 at 17:17:48: Unfortunately Congressman Lucian Blackwell's wife has been crusading for the "rights" of the "homeless and oppressed" to foul the Spruce Street concourse referred to. We used to call it Box City because of the shipping crates used by the homeless. You're right, the stench is out of this world, to say nothing of the (frequently aggressive) panhandling. Al

Thread title: Septa (761866)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:37:29 1998, by Andy

Subject: Septa
Message Number: 761866
Posted by: Andy
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:37:29 1998

This is my first post, and honestly I do not know very much about subway systems. I have heard a lot about the new trains on the El and am curious when they are cominh out. I habve only seen one train. This town needs some new trains I think. My Dad will not let me ride the trains until the new ones are active. I am in 6th grade.
- Subject: Re: Septa
- Message Number: 761877
- Posted by: Mike K
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:38:04 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Septa posted by Andy on January 10, 1998 at 21:29:38: Andy-- The new trains are being slowly unveiled. My understanding is that they may not completely replace the current trains for a few more years, perhaps not until the El reconstruction in West Philly is finished (in 2003). Michael
  - Subject: Re: Septa
  - Message Number: 761898
  - Posted by: Bobw
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:38:49 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Septa posted by Mike K on January 11, 1998 at 10:50:32: The M-4's are beginning to arrive now and are scheduled to all be on the property by the end of next year. Depending on which version you believe, the Budds may either be completely gone by them or kept in smaller numbers for emergencies. The yards can certainly accommodate upwards of 300 cars so about 100 Budds could be kept. The Market St El is slated to undergo replacement starting in '99 and lasting perhaps to 2003 according to current projections.
    - Subject: Re: Septa
    - Message Number: 761899
    - Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
    - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:38:51 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: Septa posted by Bobw on January 11, 1998 at 17:29:51: Anyone know how to get one's hands on a whole car or parts of the scrapped cars??
      - Subject: Re: Septa
      - Message Number: 761905
      - Posted by: Bobw
      - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:39:03 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Septa posted by Philip Nasadowski on January 11, 1998 at 18:47:14: No, but the cars are slowly disappearing to the scrap yards. About 30 have gone to their demise already and only 2 M-4 trains are on the property, one of which is in "regular" (Tue, Thu and Sat middays, last I heard) service. I haven't heard who the local scrapyard is, or even if it's local.
        
        Subject: Re: Septa
        Message Number: 761938
        Posted by: Wallace N. Grommit
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:40:26 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Septa posted by Andy on January 10, 1998 at 21:29:38: A high level source at SEPTA told me that the cars that are now being delivered are more than likely going back to the factory in Elmira to be "repaired." A manitence supervisor told me that the cars are "pieces of s**t" and have "easy to vandalize" interiors. A source in the transit police told me that the safety glass panel by the door had been broken by an officer after his nightstick accidently banged into it.
        
        Subject: Re: Septa
        Message Number: 761981
        Posted by: Dan Lawrence
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:42:34 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Septa posted by Wallace N. Grommit on January 12, 1998 at 19:17:00: More quality work by Adtranz. Has this company ever managed to deliver a car order on time and built to "spec"? Since SEPTA and the Maryland MTA are both struggling with current Adtranz orders, and both orders are full of problems, is this a sign taht no rail property should deal with Adtranz again?
        
        Subject: Re: Septa
        Message Number: 762033
        Posted by: Wallace N. Grommit
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:44:50 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Septa posted by Dan Lawrence on January 13, 1998 at 10:03:03: A high ranking source in the Pennsylvania DOT has revealed that the PaDOT is going to be placing an order for diesel multiple unit trainsets from AdTranz. This led me to come up with the following assesment of the situation- they're screwed.

Thread title: Crimes On Transit Systems (761868)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:37:35 1998, by Timothy

Subject: Crimes On Transit Systems
Message Number: 761868
Posted by: Timothy
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:37:35 1998

Can anyone tell me why muggers often target people who are waiting for buses, trains, etc.? About 10 years ago, I was mugged on SEPTA's Market- Frankford Line, as I was waiting for a train at 46th Street. I had just finished taking photos of and from the platform before the mugging occured. Fortunately, I didn't get hurt, and the muggers didn't take my camera, just my wallet. Although I've taken many photos on subways and els without incident since the mugging 10 years ago, it still haunts me from time to time. Can anyone give me advice on how to avoid being a crime victim while taking photos on subways/els, as well as tips on how to possibly escape a mugger, such as using Mace/pepper spray, have a friend accompany me, or go for the emergency call box or call 911 on the pay phone? Thanks.
- Subject: Re: Crimes On Transit Systems
- Message Number: 761878
- Posted by: Adam
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:38:06 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Crimes On Transit Systems posted by Timothy on January 11, 1998 at 00:52:10: When you're taking photos in the subway, I would definitely recommend bringing another person with you. I rarely go myself, for a number of reasons. One is that while you're taking the pictures, you are unaware of other things which leaves you vulnerable to pickpocketing and being pushed into the tracks. Having another person to watch over you can prevent this type of activity. Another reason is that cameras and video cameras are expensive equipment which makes you even more vulnerable to a mugging. Having another person with you will deter potential muggers from messing with you. Finally, taking photos makes you look like a tourist, which is an open invitation to getting mugged. My advice for escaping a mugger is to run to the token booth and tell them what is going on. They have a special button they press to summon the police.
  - Subject: Re: Crimes On Transit Systems
  - Message Number: 762225
  - Posted by: Nathan
  - Date: Mon Jan 26 10:27:07 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: Crimes On Transit Systems posted by Adam on January 11, 1998 at 11:42:33: One other piece of advice- (It may sound a bit paranoid) but if you are taking pictures of the subway, try to stand closer to the end of the platform- opposite to where the train comes in (the beauty of telephoto lenses!). This way, if you're pushed by some psycho the train will be either stopped or moving quite slowly, provided it's not an express. Case in point, in Toronto a few months ago, a woman was standing at the end of a platform and some freak came up behind her and pushed her as the train rushed into the station. Then he just stood there while people screamed at him- it was in broad daylight! (she lived but was chopped to pieces)

Thread title: Westside Bus Depot--Location (761869)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:37:38 1998, by STEVE L

Subject: Westside Bus Depot--Location
Message Number: 761869
Posted by: STEVE L
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:37:38 1998

can someone please advise of exact location and street boundaries ,,,n ,s,e,w,and which access roadways,or egress roadways =exact location of entrance and exit thank you ==Steve
- Subject: Re: Westside Bus Depot--Location
- Message Number: 761880
- Posted by: Fernando Perez
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:38:10 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Westside Bus Depot--Location posted by STEVE L on January 11, 1998 at 01:00:21: 40 St --------------------- 11 Av 12Av/Westside Highway --------------------- 41St

Thread title: Corrugated and white/black signs (was Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El (761873)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:37:55 1998, by .

Subject: Corrugated and white/black signs (was Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El
Message Number: 761873
Posted by: .
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:37:55 1998

Thread title: Re: Corrugated and white/black signs (was Corrugated Metal Walls On New York (761874)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:37:58 1998, by .

Subject: Re: Corrugated and white/black signs (was Corrugated Metal Walls On New York
Message Number: 761874
Posted by: .
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:37:58 1998
- Subject: Re: Corrugated and white/black signs (was Corrugated Metal Walls On New York
- Message Number: 761879
- Posted by: .
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:38:08 1998
  - Subject: Re: Corrugated and white/black signs (was Corrugated Metal Walls On New York
  - Message Number: 761883
  - Posted by: .
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:38:17 1998
    - Subject: Re: Corrugated and white/black signs (was Corrugated Metal Walls On New York
    - Message Number: 761885
    - Posted by: .
    - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:38:21 1998
      - Subject: Re: Corrugated and white/black signs (was Corrugated Metal Walls On New York
      - Message Number: 761912
      - Posted by: .
      - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:39:17 1998

Thread title: What service changes are we expected to see on NYCT buses for the March 98 (761881)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:38:12 1998, by .

Subject: What service changes are we expected to see on NYCT buses for the March 98
Message Number: 761881
Posted by: .
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:38:12 1998

Thread title: SF Muni opens E Line (761890)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:38:33 1998, by Alan Follett

Subject: SF Muni opens E Line
Message Number: 761890
Posted by: Alan Follett
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:38:33 1998

Yesterday, January 10, saw the inauguration of revenue service on San Francisco Muni's new E-Embarcadero line. This is being operated initially as a shuttle between the east end of the Embarcadero Muni Metro station, and Fourth and King Streets (next to the Caltrain station). There are three intermediate stations, all with center high-level platforms. Through operation, perhaps in connection with the J line, is expected to begin later this year; meanwhile, the trackage used by the E cars at Embarcadero station is just blocked off from the rest of the system by a temporary sawhorse-type barrier with a highway stop sign. Opening-day service consisted of two Bredas (1412 and 1429) shuttling back and forth on about 15-minute headways. Passengers, at least on the trip I rode, were overwhelmingly of the railfan persuasion; it should get its first batch of real live commuters Monday morning. The E line is Muni's first to operate on a proof-of-payment system. There were two SF city cops aboard the trip I road, but I saw no fare inspection.

Thread title: Connection From 60th Street Tunnel To Queens Blvd. (761893)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:38:38 1998, by James A. Tesoriero

Subject: Connection From 60th Street Tunnel To Queens Blvd.
Message Number: 761893
Posted by: James A. Tesoriero
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:38:38 1998

When the short connection from the 60th Street Tunnel to the Queens Blvd. subway was put into service in December of 1955, I was wondering: 1) What Queens Blvd. - Broadway service was first provided? 2) What equipment was first used? (R1-9's, Standard's, Triplex's?) I remember EE - Continental Avenue - Whitehall St. Weekday service that used primarily R16's in the early and mid seventies. Then the EE was dscontinued in 1976 and the N was sent up to Continental with R-46's, and we pretty much know all the rest
- Subject: Re: Connection From 60th Street Tunnel To Queens Blvd.
- Message Number: 761897
- Posted by: Mike B
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:38:47 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Connection From 60th Street Tunnel To Queens Blvd. posted by James A. Tesoriero on January 11, 1998 at 16:58:13: Before the EE was in existance, I believe that some RR trains went to Continental, with the QT, QB and T running to Astoria.
  - Subject: Re: Connection From 60th Street Tunnel To Queens Blvd.
  - Message Number: 761901
  - Posted by: Walter
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:38:54 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: Connection From 60th Street Tunnel To Queens Blvd. posted by Mike B on January 11, 1998 at 17:29:25: I remember seeing BMT standards on the 4th Ave./Broadway/Queens Blvd. line in Queens in 1958, when I came to New York on a visit.
    - Subject: Re: Connection From 60th Street Tunnel To Queens Blvd.
    - Message Number: 761918
    - Posted by: Ed Sachs
    - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:39:29 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Connection From 60th Street Tunnel To Queens Blvd. posted by James A. Tesoriero on January 11, 1998 at 16:58:13: Original service (1955-1961) was Brighton Local, generally using BMT Standards, Mon-Fri, 6am - 7pm, local to Forest Hills. In 1961, the Brighton Local and 4th Ave Local (QT and RR) swapped Queens terminals, with the Brighton going to Astoria and the 4th Ave to Forest Hills. At that time, the R27/R30s were being delivered and were replacing the Standards on these two lines. When the Chrystie St. connection was opened in 1967, the RR went to Astoria, and a new EE Broadway Local service ran Forest Hills - Whitehall St., still Mon-Fri, 6am - 7pm. In 1967, pre-war IND R-units were used on the EE, but later on other equipment showed up on the line.
      - Subject: Re: Connection From 60th Street Tunnel To Queens Blvd.
      - Message Number: 761919
      - Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
      - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:39:32 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Connection From 60th Street Tunnel To Queens Blvd. posted by Mike B on January 11, 1998 at 17:29:25: 4th Avenue local trains ran from 95th St.-Fort Hamilton to Continental Avenue-Forest Hills from 6:00 AM to 7:00 PM Mon-Fri ONLY from the time of its creation in 1955 until November 1967, when the EE started. Evenings, nights, and weekends, 4th Avenue locals only ran to 57 St and were the only trains to use the tunnel track during those non-business day hours. The cars used were the 67' BMT standards until the modern trains (I don't know the number) with dark gray outside, pink inside, fluorescent lights, and plastic sideways seats were introduced around 1961. The 4th Avenue locals were never considered IND trains and never used IND cars (until November 1967 at least). The maps even had a dotted green line next to a solid red line showing that the service was BMT service and IND service on the same tracks. The connecting tunnel was built because all that Queens local service capacity was being underused with a train (GG) that didn't go into Manhattan. Everyone on a local had to change to an express somewhere. The service to the Broadway line was, is, and will always be extremely popular and crowded because it is the only train of the E,F,G,R that goes to the Financial district below Fulton Street without one having to climb stairs to change trains. I believe the 63 St tunnel may be underused if it only goes to 6th Avenue during rush hours because a very large part of the ridership wants to go to the stations south of Fulton Street, i.e. Rector (Wall) St. and Whitehall St. 6th Avenue and 8th Avenue trains do not go into the heart of the Financial district. Before 51 St.(6)/Lexington Avenue(E,F) were connected, it was even worse. The R train was the only way to transfer to a midtown Lexington Avenue train from Queens Blvd without a really convoluted set of transfers.
        
        Subject: Re: Connection From 60th Street Tunnel To Queens Blvd.
        Message Number: 761952
        Posted by: a pardi
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:41:06 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Connection From 60th Street Tunnel To Queens Blvd. posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 12, 1998 at 11:40:20: the 63rd st connector when complete will see the g terminate at court square permanently. either the Q or the F will operate via 63rd st to sixth av.
        
        Subject: Re: Connection From 60th Street Tunnel To Queens Blvd.
        Message Number: 762061
        Posted by: Eric B
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:46:03 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Connection From 60th Street Tunnel To Queens Blvd. posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 12, 1998 at 11:40:20: No, some R-1's ran on the R in 1955, when some R-16's were sent to the IND to be used on the new Rockaway line. Also, around this time, some R-10s ran on the Eastern div.

Thread title: Update on 1998 Subway Derby (761900)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:38:52 1998, by subway-buff

Subject: Update on 1998 Subway Derby
Message Number: 761900
Posted by: subway-buff
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:38:52 1998

I received an e-mail from Adam this week with an update on the derby. Adam is still waitign for a reply from guiness. Unilt a reply is received there is nothing we can do but wait. Adam, Bob, Mr Mabstoa or mysel;f will keep you posted via subtalk. (I am the official clerk of the derby)

Thread title: Any MP-54/70s around??? (761902)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:38:56 1998, by Philip Nasadowski

Subject: Any MP-54/70s around???
Message Number: 761902
Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:38:56 1998

Does either the LIRR, NJT, or Septa have any MP-54 or MP-70 cars around anymore (and where??) I know the LIRR ditched or demotored theirs in the 70's, but I don't know what happened to Septa's and NJT's, although I've heard that Septa still had them in service until 80 or so. Does anyone still have any around??
- Subject: Re: Any MP-54/70s around???
- Message Number: 761906
- Posted by: Bobw
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:39:05 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Any MP-54/70s around??? posted by Philip Nasadowski on January 11, 1998 at 21:05:32: There are no more MP-54's in service on SEPTA's regional rail lines. I believe one or two are still in work train service. The Wilmington and Western Railroad, south/west of Wilmington, DE, had received a group of these when SEPTA retired them and they were stored at W & W's shops. Whether they are still there, I couldn't say. It appears that several other tourist operations like W & W also got some of the cars, and I do recall seeing some somewhere (I can't recall where) without the pantographs, etc being hauled by diesel/steam locos. SEPTA doesn't save much for historical purposes and has managed to let the MP-54's and Reading MU's disappear from its roster, with the exception of work service (there are a couple of Reading Blues still on maintenance of way duties).

Thread title: New York Subway Line by Line: The West End Line (761903)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:38:59 1998, by Mark S Feinman

Subject: New York Subway Line by Line: The West End Line
Message Number: 761903
Posted by: Mark S Feinman
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:38:59 1998

Hi all. Posted below is a working draft of the second installment - "New York City Line by Line: The West End Line". All comments welcome. If anyone remembers some of the service patterns that the line had after 1940 (T express and TT local, for example), that would be especially welcome. By Tuesday, Dave will have my finalized version of the Culver Line ready for placement on the site (once we decide what photos to use, etc). Thanks to all of you who offered comments. --Mark ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - General History The West End Line began service in 1864 as a steam railroad called the Brooklyn, Bath and Coney Island between 25th St and 5th Ave in South Brooklyn to the Bath section of Brooklyn, which in today's map would be 65th Street and New Utrecht Avenue. In 1867, the steam line reached Coney Island, making it the first steam railroad to reach the Atlantic Ocean at this location. In 1885, a branch was bulilt from 5th Avenue and 38th Street to Second Avenue and 39th Street as a ferry connection. Also in 1885, the BB&CI was reorganized into th Brooklyn, Bath and West End Railroad. In 1889, when the 5th Ave El reached 5th Ave and 36th St, the railroad was abandoned north of 36th St. Trains then ran from 2 branches, one from the ferries and one from the junction of the 5th Ave El, to Tivoli's Hotel in Coney Island. The two branches joined in West Brooklyn, which is approximately where New Utrecht Ave & Ft Hamilton Pkwy meet now. In 1893, the line was electrified with trolley wire and merged with the Atlantic Avenue Railroad which itself merged with the Nassau Electric Railroad in 1898. In November of 1893, the Atlantic Avenue Railroad started running streetcars on the line, and in early 1894, railway post office mail was begun on the line to Coney Island. In 1901, BRT elevated trains began using the surface West End trackage, using trolley poles. Service connected to the West End from a ramp of the 5th Avenue elevated at 36th Street. Called the "5th Ave - West End Line", it ran using third rail from Sands St or Park Row to 36th St and then by trolley pole to Coney Island. Originally, the West End Line has its own Coney Island terminal, but later in the 1900s shared a terminal with the Culver Line at Culver Terminal. In 1919, both the Culver and West End Lines moved to their new terminal, the present-day Stillwell Avenue and Coney Island BMT stop. In 1917, as part of the Dual Contracts, the West End El as we know it today was built, replacing the surface route. Streetcars replaced trolley powered El cars on the surface until the trolley line was closed in 1947. Steel cars from the 4th Avenue subway to Chambers St via the Manhattan Bridge replaced the wooden 5th Ave El cars, and the 5th Avenue El was closed in 1940. Remains of these ramps can be seen today just north of the 9th Avenue and 39th Street station. Some service in Manhattan ran as far north as Union Square in 1917, and then to Times Square in 1918. By 1919, part time service was available at 57th St and 7th Ave. Because of a shortage of steel cars, shuttles consisting of wooden equipment ran between Bay Parkway and Coney Island at rush hours until 1953. Rush hour trains consisting of steel cars also ended their runs at Bay Parkway. In 1918, the Malbone St wreck on the BRT Brighton Line killed 97 people. As a result of the wreck, the BRT went bankrupt and was reorganized into the BMT (Brooklyn - Manhattan Transit Corporation). The West End Line then became a BMT property. The West End Line was unified into the New York City Transit System on June 1st, 1940, after BMT shareholders agreed to a $175 million buyout from the City of New York. On November 26th, 1967, as part of the opening of the Chrystie Street connection, service was rerouted up 6th Avenue. Rush hour trains terminated at 168th St; normal hour trains terminated at 57th St and 6th Ave when it was opened July 1st, 1968. Before Chrystie Street, T expresses ran between Coney Island and 9th Avenue in the peak direction during rush hours and TTs ran as the local. Today, the West End is serviced by the B line and there is only local service between Coney Island and 9th Avenue. M trains used to run to 9th Avenue (until 1996) during midday hours (after being rerouted off the Brighton Line in 1988 because of the "temporary" Manhattan Bridge work); M trains now run to Bay Parkway only during rush hours and to Chambers Street weekday middays. Even with the supplemental service on the West End at rush hours, New York City transit never decided to have the B run express to Bay Parkway. Probably no other line in the New York City Transit System is as well known as the B line (save for the #6 in "The Taking of Pelham 1-2-3"). The B line was used in a major chase scene of the movie "The French Connection" in 1971 as a car chases the B train overhead from Bay 50th nearly all the way to 9th Avenue. Photos place photos here Timeline 1862: Opened as the Brooklyn, Bath & Coney Island Railroad 1885: Reorganized into the Brooklyn, Bath and West End Railroad 1892: Merged into the Atlantic Avene Railroad 1893: Electrified using trolley wire. 1898: Merged into the Nassau Electric Railroad. 1899: Absorbed into the BRT 1917: Became part of the New York Consolidated Railroad under the BRT. 1923 15 June: Control transferred to BMT (New York Rapid Transit Corp) 1940 1 June: Unified into the New York City transit System. 1940: Abandonment of 5th Avenue El 1967 26 November: Chrystie Street connection opens. Stations West End Elevated 9th Avenue, 9/15/1916 Fort Hamilton Pkwy, 9/15/1916. 50 St, 9/15/1916 55 St, 9/15/1916 62 St, 9/15/1916 71 St, 9/15/1916 79 St, 9/15/1916 18 Ave, 9/15/1916 20 Ave, 12/29/1916 Bay Parkway, 12/29/1916 25 Ave, 12/29/1916 Bay 50th St, 12/21/1917 Stillwell Ave - Coney Island, 12/21/1917 Construction The structure at 9th Avenue is open cut, having rambled through a short rock and brick-lined 2 track tunnel upon exiting from the 4th Avenue subway. Upon exiting the tunnel, the remains of the 5th Ave El ramps (made of concrete) can clearly be seen, followed by a set of similar looking concrete ramps coming from the 36th St Maintenancxe yards which are on the left side of the train. A complicated maze of switches then appears, three tracks which lead to the ex-Culver line stop on the lower level (closed since May 11th, 1975) and three tracks whci lead to the upper level for the West End Line, in an open cut. Both levels of 9th Ave have 2 island platforms and one express track down the middle. The West Line then becomes elevated between 9th Ave and Bay 50th St, using an El structure typically built during the Dual Contracts days. All local stops are side platforms and all express stops are of the island platform type. The express stops are 9th Ave, 62 St, and Bay Parkway; all other stops are local. After leaving Bay 50th St, an S curve takes you from the El structure (16.5 miles long) onto grade level, with the massive Coney Island shops right beside you. Then the line crosses Coney Island Creek and rises again before entering Stillwell Avenue. Stillwell Avenue has center island platforms, one each for B (West End) approaching from the north, F (Culver) and D (Brighton) approaching from the east, and N (Sea Beach) trains approaching from the north. The West End Line tracks are the most westward and the last track (track 8) is built on a typical El structure, while the other (track 7) is built on a concrete viaduct that is shared with the other lines. Stillwell Avenue - Coney Island was a Dual Contracts-funded replacement for the private Culver and West End Depots. Track 7 is now stub-ended, but at one time it had an alternate connection to the Culver Line tracks. The Norton's Point Trolley terminal and ramp was located at the same level as the subway, just beyond where the bumper posts of tracks 7 and 8 are today. Stillwell Avenue is due to be reconstructed in 1998. What Makes the West End Line Interesting? The elevated West End Line is one of the finest elevated runs in the city. The stations have enough of a distance where decent speed can be attained before stopping at the next one. Photo opportunities exist at 62nd Street, where you can get a good shot of trains approaching from either direction. Another good spot is at 18th Avenue ont he Coney Island bound side. Trains can be captured just before they round the curves at either side of the station. Like the Culver Line, the West End Line shares the 9th Avenue station and uses the upper level. There used to be a pedestrian crossing over the center express track at the north side of the station that also provided TA employees access to the 36th Street yard. Until recently, there was never a "no admittance" sign; in the last few years, one was erected. That perch provided for some great shots of trains coming from the 4th Avenue subway. However, good shots can still be taken from the platform level. Stillwell Avenue offers many varied opportunities for photos and should not be missed. The north end of the station has a pedestrian crossing over all 8 tracks, and the view from the West End side looking north towards Manhattan is the best. Looking south, photos can be taken with the Cyclone rollercoaster or the parachute jump (a New York landmark that used to be part of the 1939-40 World's Fair) in the background. Exit the station at Stillwell Avenue and yet more opportunities are available to you along Stillwell Avenue on the west, Surf Avenue on the South and Neptune Ave on the north sides of the station. (West End and Sea Beach trains depart in a northerly direction over Neptune Avenue).
- Subject: Re: New York Subway Line by Line: The West End Line
- Message Number: 761904
- Posted by: Mark S Feinman
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:39:02 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]New York Subway Line by Line: The West End Line posted by Mark S Feinman on January 11, 1998 at 21:15:55: One oops I know of alreay - the length of the El is not 16.5 miles - it's 4.5 .. I think I was thinking of the Broadway / Jamaica line ..... --Mark
  - Subject: Re: New York Subway Line by Line: The West End Line
  - Message Number: 761916
  - Posted by: Ed Sachs
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:39:25 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]New York Subway Line by Line: The West End Line posted by Mark S Feinman on January 11, 1998 at 21:15:55: > Originally, the West End Line has its own Coney > Island terminal, but later in the 1900s shared a terminal > with the Culver Line at Culver Terminal. I may be wrong, but I thought that the Sea Beach and West End lines used West End Terminal, and the Culver and Brighton Lines used Culver Terminal. > Before Chrystie Street, T expresses ran between Coney Island > and 9th Avenue in the peak direction during rush hours and > TTs ran as the local. I don't think that there was ever express service south of 9th Ave. The (mid 60s) TT trains terminated at Bay Parkway in rush hour (Bay Parkway to Chambers St. via tunnel), and the T expresses ran over the Manhattan bridge to 57th St or Astoria. During midday weekdays, the T express didn't operate and the TT ran all the way to Coney Island. I do recall that throught the 50s and 60s, off-hour service was reduced on the West End Line. At some point in the mid-late 50s, the West End express Manhattan Bridge through service was discontinued during late night hours, replaced first by service via tunnel to Chambers St, and later by a shuttle to 36 St/4 Ave. The West End Local (also sometimes called the West End Short Line, and later the TT) was originally a rush-hour only operation; midday service started when the Culver line through service ended (around 1958 or 1959), at which time the midday West End Express (T) train through service was discontinued. In the mid 60s, Sunday through service was eliminated, replaced by a Coney Island to 36 St/4 Ave shuttle.

Thread title: New York City Subway Line By Line: The Sea Beach Line (761907)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:39:08 1998, by Mark S Feinman

Subject: New York City Subway Line By Line: The Sea Beach Line
Message Number: 761907
Posted by: Mark S Feinman
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:39:08 1998

For those Sea Beach fans, here's the working branch of the Sea Beach for the "Line by Line" series. Comments welcome.
- Subject: Re: New York City Subway Line By Line: The Sea Beach Line
- Message Number: 761915
- Posted by: Ed Sachs
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:39:23 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]New York City Subway Line By Line: The Sea Beach Line posted by Mark S Feinman on January 11, 1998 at 22:31:48: Mark - Do you have any information about the ramp west of the 8th Ave. station that led up to the Bay Ridge branch of the 5th Ave. El? Did this trackage ever see any revenue service? Ed
  - Subject: Re: New York City Subway Line By Line: The Sea Beach Line
  - Message Number: 761920
  - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:39:35 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: New York City Subway Line By Line: The Sea Beach Line posted by Ed Sachs on January 12, 1998 at 11:02:25: Ed -- Theonly recurring theme I keep seeing about 5th Ave - West End and Culver is that off peak 3rd Ave service was done by uncoupling cars from Culver Line trains. I don't have any other information on this ramp (actually, I had forgotten about it!) --Mark
    - Subject: Re: New York City Subway Line By Line: The Sea Beach Line
    - Message Number: 761951
    - Posted by: a pardi
    - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:41:03 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: New York City Subway Line By Line: The Sea Beach Line posted by Ed Sachs on January 12, 1998 at 11:02:25: i think on some early 1900 subway maps the ramps west of 8 th av sta lead up to the old 5th ave elevated
      - Subject: Re: New York City Subway Line By Line: The Sea Beach Line
      - Message Number: 761967
      - Posted by: Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto
      - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:41:45 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: New York City Subway Line By Line: The Sea Beach Line posted by Mark S Feinman on January 12, 1998 at 12:07:40: I've brought up the subject of the ramps on this board before - no responses... I have a photo by one of the ERA old timers whose name escapes me now, from the OPENING of the rebuilt 9th Ave cut. On this photo the ramps closest to 5th Ave are still empty of track! The photog noted (in this railfan trip booklet) that these tracks may have been used during the rebuild but that even at this time of the opening of the new cut trackage, these ramps were devoid of tracks! This fits in with all the track maps I've seen, which show the 36th street turnouts going into the yard and continuing quite a ways, up to the second set of ramps (the yard tracks) which we all know. If ANYONE has proof otherwise PLEASE ADVISE (with sources)!
        
        Subject: Re: New York City Subway Line By Line: The Sea Beach Line
        Message Number: 762007
        Posted by: Charles Fiori
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:43:36 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]New York City Subway Line By Line: The Sea Beach Line posted by Mark S Feinman on January 11, 1998 at 22:31:48: In adding to your thoughts on use of the Sea Beach express tracks, I can remember that once I had to get from Ave. X shops to the Wall St. area IN A HURRY! Unfortunately, they were doing midday work on the N/B local tracks and so I had to take a southbound to Coney Island and then ride back north. I thought I would end up making good time riding express all the way into Manhattan, but the ride on the n/b express tracks was s-l-o-w. I think that the only switches along this stretch are in the area of Kings Highway. So, if you want to count this usage as "revenue" service...[This would have been fall of 1988 as I can remember listening to the Mets-Dodgers playoff on a walkman.]
        
        Subject: Re: New York City Subway Line By Line: The Sea Beach Line
        Message Number: 762026
        Posted by: Dan Schwartz
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:44:25 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]New York City Subway Line By Line: The Sea Beach Line posted by Mark S Feinman on January 11, 1998 at 22:31:48: I'm surprised you didn't discuss the LIRR tracks that share the same "cut" with the Sea Beach tracks between the 4th Ave. subway and New Utrecht Ave. Do you know how this shared right-of-way came to be?
        
        Subject: Re: New York City Subway Line By Line: The Sea Beach Line
        Message Number: 762047
        Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:45:26 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: New York City Subway Line By Line: The Sea Beach Line posted by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto on January 13, 1998 at 03:30:09: The ramps at 59th St. may date from the streetcar days when the local streetcars climbed a ramp to the el and exchanged passengers with the el trains. I know of no through el service on Sea Beach after the dual contracts era began.
        
        Subject: Re: New York City Subway Line By Line: The Sea Beach Line
        Message Number: 762084
        Posted by: Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:47:05 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: New York City Subway Line By Line: The Sea Beach Line posted by Gerry O'Regan on January 14, 1998 at 10:57:23: Oops - we're all intertangled here - My last msg was about the two sets of ramps in the 36th St. Culver cut. Others have asked about the 65th St. cut and the Bay Ridge branch of the LIRR/NHRR/PC. Re: the 36th St. cut - all are welcome to comment on what they know about the western ramps that even in early opening year photos are empty - reinforcing much published diagrams that show the 5th Av El going thru the yard and comind into the cut via the easternmost yard track ramps that are in use to this very day... Re: the 65th St. cut: besides the freight/car floats/yard that was/is in use there for the past century, the LIRR Bay Ridge Line had a a Bay Ridge passenger station there which connected with ferry service, as well. (BTW, there is/was a fast ferry service operating there recently). The Sea Beach Railroad also terminated at the "65th St. Ferry". Does anyone know how the tracks were layed-out and whether there were separate tracks/terminals when/if both passenger services operated concurrently?
        
        Subject: Re: New York City Subway Line By Line: The Sea Beach Line
        Message Number: 762102
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:47:53 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: New York City Subway Line By Line: The Sea Beach Line posted by Dan Schwartz on January 14, 1998 at 00:17:12: I don't know too much about the LIRR Bay Ridge Line and don'r recall seeing anything in my sources regarding why the shared (or the appearance of the shared) ROW. But I'll check again. Also, the LIRR Bay Ridge Line has a good deal of history in its own right (none of which I am too familiar with, I'm afraid). --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: New York City Subway Line By Line: The Sea Beach Line
        Message Number: 762104
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:47:57 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: New York City Subway Line By Line: The Sea Beach Line posted by Charles Fiori on January 13, 1998 at 16:20:20: Wow - I didn't think that was done on the Sea Beach; I doubt the condition of the tracks would support it now. However, it does count and I'll modify my text to include the rare event of a rerouting due to track work. I do know, and have seen, N trains using the West End Express tracks during track work. When there's track work, a usual pattern is N trains run in one direction on the Sea Beach and then in the other direction, running express, on the West End. --Mark

Thread title: Elizabeth Light Rail (761909)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:39:12 1998, by Blaise Dupuy

Subject: Elizabeth Light Rail
Message Number: 761909
Posted by: Blaise Dupuy
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:39:12 1998

Elizabeth is considering plans to build a sports stadium near the airport, next to Port Elizabeth. The location is next to the site of the proposed Jersey Gardens outlet center, a proposed megamall formerly known as NJ MetroMall. Does anyone know if NJ Transit still have plans to build the Newark Elizabeth light rail? There is an old railroad bridge that crosses Newark Bay to Bayonne right next to the site. Would it be feasible to run the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail line over this bridge and stop at the stadium, and then on to downtown Elizabeth?
- Subject: Re: Elizabeth Light Rail
- Message Number: 762016
- Posted by: faxman
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:43:58 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]Elizabeth Light Rail posted by Blaise Dupuy on January 11, 1998 at 23:45:24: i f your thinking about the cnj bridge its long gone.
  - Subject: Re: Elizabeth Light Rail
  - Message Number: 762021
  - Posted by: David Pirmann
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:44:14 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Elizabeth Light Rail posted by faxman on January 13, 1998 at 20:36:26: No, the bridge in question is the B&O bridge across the Arthur Kill (right beside the Goethals Bridge). It's still there and it is supposed to be reactivated soon.
    - Subject: Re: Elizabeth Light Rail
    - Message Number: 762066
    - Posted by: faxman
    - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:46:15 1998
      
      In Reply to: [7]Elizabeth Light Rail posted by Blaise Dupuy on January 11, 1998 at 23:45:24: that bridge goes si ny not bayonne nj. that line line runs from canford to si (the sirt line). yes the county did buy along with the rahway valley line to union. the mall is near the old cnj e-port yard i think

Thread title: WMATA New look GMC's (Fishbowl) (761914)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:39:21 1998, by Wayne Johnson

Subject: WMATA New look GMC's (Fishbowl)
Message Number: 761914
Posted by: Wayne Johnson
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:39:21 1998

Those of you who are interested in GM Fishbowls had better get to Washington DC soon as I don't think they'll be around much longer. WMATA was due to receive 262? new Orion V buses. The new Orions have started to arrive and I'm sure that WMATA will be removing GM fishbowls as quickly as possible. If they are indeed getting 262 buses then I would expect that some of the new look Flxibles will be retired also.
- Subject: Re: WMATA New look GMC's (Fishbowl)
- Message Number: 761924
- Posted by: Charles Fiori
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:39:44 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]WMATA New look GMC's (Fishbowl) posted by Wayne Johnson on January 12, 1998 at 09:27:31: Hopefully those are not some of the same fishbowls which took the place of the Flxible 870s in NYC!!!
  - Subject: Re: WMATA New look GMC's (Fishbowl)
  - Message Number: 761929
  - Posted by: Wayne Johnson
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:39:53 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: WMATA New look GMC's (Fishbowl) posted by Charles Fiori on January 12, 1998 at 12:50:17: Actually they are the same models (TDH-5302, 5304 and T6H-5306) and I wouldn't be at all suprised if some of the actual buses that came to NYC are still amongst them. Incidentally, WMATA has also lent buses to SEPTA in the past also.
    - Subject: Re: WMATA New look GMC's (Fishbowl)
    - Message Number: 761932
    - Posted by: Charles Fiori
    - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:40:00 1998
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: WMATA New look GMC's (Fishbowl) posted by Wayne Johnson on January 12, 1998 at 16:26:57: At some point, when I was maniacal about such things, I actually had someone collate a list of the WMATA equipment sent up to NY, fleet nos., etc. I can remember when the bus drivers who were going to bring the equipment up from DC boarded the Eastern Shuttle at LGA, one of them hollered out, "Hey, where's the farebox on this thing?"

Thread title: Washington DC Green Line (761922)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:39:40 1998, by aaron

Subject: Washington DC Green Line
Message Number: 761922
Posted by: aaron
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:39:40 1998

I was in Washington DC recently and rode to College Park on Red/Green lines. I had to change at Fort Totten, but noticed Green Line seemed to be built back to downtown. What is the background and is this unfinished segment ever going to open?
- Subject: Re: Washington DC Green Line
- Message Number: 761925
- Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:39:46 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]Washington DC Green Line posted by aaron on January 12, 1998 at 12:44:15: You must have not looked at the map very carefully. The Green Line between Fort Totten and U-Street Cardozo (two stations worth) is currently under construction and will open in 1999. Another section south of the Anacostia station will open in 2001. It currently runs in two sections: Fort-Totten to Greenbelt and U Street to Anacostia. Also, there is still one last station on the Red line to be opened on July 25, 1998: "Glenmont", near my house (Finally!!!). During rush hours a special version of the Green Line runs. Instead of terminating at Fort Totten, the southbound train, for example, crosses over just before it reaches Fort Totten, onto the northbound track and then to a (normally) non-revenue connecting track which connects it to the southbound Red Line. The train then runs on the Red Line through all of downtown Washington to Farragut North Station (3 blocks northwest of the White House). It then turns around on a center track and goes back to Greenbelt, again using the connecting track and skipping Fort Totten. Since both NB and SB Green share the single connecting track, the trains run on a nine-minute headway, instead of the standard 6 minute rush hour headway of branches, so there can be at least 2 minutes between directions so they won't crash. The central part of the Red Line normally has 3-minute headway, so this extra Green service has to be squooshed in there among the other trains, not always with ontime service resulting.
  - Subject: Re: Washington DC Green Line
  - Message Number: 761980
  - Posted by: Dan Lawrence
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:42:32 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: Washington DC Green Line posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 12, 1998 at 13:50:43: Thank you. I had heard about this interesting service before. One thing: EGAD! A public transit agency has actually started a service to serve the passengers, not move the vehicles!! Let us hope that this radical idea will spread to the rest of the industry.
    - Subject: Re: Washington DC Green Line
    - Message Number: 762042
    - Posted by: Mark Greenwald
    - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:45:16 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: Washington DC Green Line posted by Dan Lawrence on January 13, 1998 at 09:57:02: WAIT DANThis special version of the Green Line is offered on an outbound service only after SOLD OUT events at the new MCI Center which is built adjacent to the Gallery Place station (it has a connecting entrance). Along with that, the Blue Line also offers a special service from Gallery Place to Franconia/ Springfield also during SOLD OUT events. Picture if you will you will, trains labeled Blue-Franconia/Springfield will travel on the Yellow Line to Pentagon where it connects with normal Blue Line service. ALL IN THE NAME OF CUSTOMER SERVICE or should I say TO CAPITALIZE ON INCREASED REVENUE.
      - Subject: Re: Washington DC Green Line
      - Message Number: 762071
      - Posted by: Mike K
      - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:46:36 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Washington DC Green Line posted by Dan Lawrence on January 13, 1998 at 09:57:02: Actually, some of my DC-area friends aren't that happy about this service, known as the "Green Line Shortcut." The problem is holding time while waiting for the center track between the Green and Red Lines to open up. It can actually slow the trip down, even though it saves the transfer.
        
        Subject: Re: Washington DC Green Line
        Message Number: 762079
        Posted by: Joe M
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:46:52 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Washington DC Green Line posted by Mark Greenwald on January 14, 1998 at 09:58:41: Full trains nice Idea. I hope they have enough trains to serve the need. I femember waiting at Park St. in Boston one night trying to figure out why the trains were too full to get on. I thought at first that there must have been a problem during rush hour. Once I did get on a train it was clear that I was in the middle of many spirited Bo-Sox fans going to the game. It was a fun ride.
        
        Subject: Re: Washington DC Green Line
        Message Number: 762082
        Posted by: Dan Lawrence
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:46:58 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Washington DC Green Line posted by Mark Greenwald on January 14, 1998 at 09:58:41: See, what did I say? Service to attract (and serve) the passenger. The increased revenue comes from the service. Remember this is a radical idea. Too many transit managers believe that the vehicle is the most important thing in transit service.
        
        Subject: Re: Washington DC Green Line
        Message Number: 762092
        Posted by: Mark Greenwald
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:47:28 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Washington DC Green Line posted by Dan Lawrence on January 15, 1998 at 00:40:13: Dan----I still stand by my prediction that eventually the Yellow & Blue Lines will reverse terminus' (Huntington vs. Franconia/ Springfield) If you remember, the Yellow Line was originally supposed to go to Franconia while the Blue to Huntington--The reason it didn't was simple---when the Line opened south of Nat'l Airport to Huntington, it took less cars to add to the Yellow and extend it southward and leave the Blue terminating at Nat'l Airport--At the time, the Yellow Line only operated to Gallery Place. The reason I stand by this prediction is simple, Increased customer service, which we are currently seeing, this would give downtown customers a more direct route to the huge parking lot that is Franconia/ Springfield (and Northern Va for that matter) without making a transfer.
        
        Subject: Re: Washington DC Green Line
        Message Number: 762093
        Posted by: Mark Greenwald
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:47:32 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Washington DC Green Line posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 12, 1998 at 13:50:43: The reason this middle segment wasn't built was for essentially two reasons---1) lack of money and more importantly 2) The residents kept fighting over where the route should run between Columbia Hts. & Ft. Totten--some said it should go up New Hampshire--others wanted Kansas Ave.--This increased bickering wasn't fair to the residents of P.G. County so WMATA opted to go ahead and build it since all the planning work had been completed.
        
        Subject: Re: Washington DC Green Line
        Message Number: 762119
        Posted by: Peter Gray
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:48:26 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Washington DC Green Line posted by Mark Greenwald on January 15, 1998 at 10:07:27: So Mark, which route was finally settled on, New Hampshire or Kansas Avenue?
        
        Subject: Re: Washington DC Green Line
        Message Number: 762168
        Posted by: Mark Greenwald
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:50:55 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Washington DC Green Line posted by Peter Gray on January 15, 1998 at 19:51:56: The route runs up new Hampshire Avenue between the Columbia Hts. Station and Fort Totten---sorry about that--didn't mean to leave out such an important detail.........It's due to open Late 1999, in fact, the Washington Post posted a message on 12/8/97 about the completion of the Georgia Ave.-Petworth station at the intersection of the 2 avenues.
        
        Subject: Re: Washington DC Green Line
        Message Number: 762327
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Mon Jan 26 10:32:18 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Washington DC Green Line posted by Mark Greenwald on January 17, 1998 at 00:41:37: This is great news for occasional travlers to DC like myself. The existing system is perhaps the best in the US for visitors, and completing it will make it even better!

Thread title: DC Area's Metro-rail (761928)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:39:51 1998, by Chris Matheson

Subject: DC Area's Metro-rail
Message Number: 761928
Posted by: Chris Matheson
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:39:51 1998

Well, finally a post about my system (I hate to be the first one on these boards). I have just moved to the DC area last month from Syracuse, and let me tell you that I don't know what I ever did without a well developed modren, mass transit system! I have a few questions though maybe you could help: 1) Does the Metro-Rail system have a web site? 2) I was told that the system is fully automated - the reason the door times at certain stations are never long enough or too long. Is this true? This forum is really neat, I have been reading posts for about two weeks now, (it has earned book-mark status). Never thought you could say so much about a sub-way/mass transit system! Chris Matheson Sorry, no e-mail address at this time, hopefully I will have something soon
- Subject: Re: DC Area's Metro-rail
- Message Number: 761930
- Posted by: John B. Bredin
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:39:55 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]DC Area's Metro-rail posted by Chris Matheson on January 12, 1998 at 16:05:32: 1)Yes. The address is www.wmata.com 2)I'm not certain, but my understanding is that the system could be operated totally automatically but it is not, in that an actual human being controls the doors.
  - Subject: Re: DC Area's Metro-rail
  - Message Number: 761931
  - Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:39:57 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]DC Area's Metro-rail posted by Chris Matheson on January 12, 1998 at 16:05:32: 1) http://www.wmata.com/ 2) It is fully automated when accelerating, moving between stations, and stopping in the stations. The motorman appears to open the doors (though I used to think they opened automatically), and he/she definitely closes them. They do not close automatically. BTW, If you ever hear multiple beeping sounds, it means the train is going too fast and the computer (or the person on very slippery days) is going to slow it down. Maps brochures, and all timetables can be obtained at Metro Center (12 & F end), Metro HQ at 5th and F St. NW, and at a few other Transit stores, at Crystal City, Rosslyn, and Ballston (all in nearby malls). The White Flint Mall one on the second floor near Borders Books has mostly MD stuff, while the others have everything, including MARC and VRE trains. There are also two bus maps DC/MD and DC/VA, for $1.50 each. Also Ride-On Bus maps for the Montgomery County system, and other maps for the smaller suburban systems. Good luck. The rail system is easy to get around on. The bus system is kind of strange because many routes have many branches to hit every apartment house and back street in the two states. Cross-Distict buses north of U St. are also not too frequent. "Welcome to Our Nation's Capital." Which agency are you going to work at or "do battle" with?
    - Subject: Re: DC Area's Metro-rail
    - Message Number: 761933
    - Posted by: Chris Matheson
    - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:40:06 1998
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: DC Area's Metro-rail posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 12, 1998 at 16:50:21: Thanks for the tips. I wondered what the beeps were. I am self-employed- graphic design and some minor web development. My wife works for the government, hence the move. I neglected to tell you earlier that Syracuse has started a service known as OnTrack, and it features old fashioned service beteen Carousel Center, the largest mall in the area (and one of the few entertainment areas), Armory Square (Historic Shopping) Syracuse University (Go Orange!) and Jamesville Beach. (Closed for the season) During the summer I know they have sight-seeing tours, etc. I know one of the trains is steam operated, but beyond that, I don't know anything else! As a final aside: There is a store in Carousel that features train collectibles. THere is a similar store at Crossgates Mall in Albany, so I can only assume it is a chain: They have stuff like old signage, etc, but I think it is all representations. They also sell old model train engines, kind of neat!
      - Subject: Re: DC Area's Metro-rail
      - Message Number: 761942
      - Posted by: Peter Gray
      - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:40:40 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: DC Area's Metro-rail posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 12, 1998 at 16:50:21: Interesting explanation of the high level of automation on the Washington Metro. In contrast, the ATC systems on both the Tokyo subway system & the 'bullet-train' (I live in Tokyo) have fully automated cruise and breaking down to the 5 km level. The engineer/motorman must manually stop the train below 5 km, and manually accelerate the train. This was done by design to keep the human 'in the loop' making the most crucial decisions (when to speed up). A fully-automated system was considered but rejected in favor of the 'human failsafe' operation. For what it's worth, since beginning operations in 1964, the various shinkansen (bullet-train) lines have never had a passenger fatality (other than suicides).
        
        Subject: Re: DC Area's Metro-rail
        Message Number: 761948
        Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:40:55 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: DC Area's Metro-rail posted by Peter Gray on January 12, 1998 at 20:21:08: BART, I believe is so automated that the "train operator" could die and the passengers wouldn't know it. Actually, isn't Bart the system where the guy can't manually move the train if it conks out?? Patco is pretty automatic at points, but at other points the operator actually does drive the train. An engineer on Metro North told me that the DC guys actually are represented by the bus driver's union, and not the BLE. It goes without saying that automation, while high in intital cost, saves oodles on labor, given that job can be handled by all but the dumbest people.
        
        Subject: Re: DC Area's Metro-rail
        Message Number: 761976
        Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:42:18 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: DC Area's Metro-rail posted by Chris Matheson on January 12, 1998 at 18:07:27: In Washington there are two very good train stores: "The Great Train Store" in Union Station (where else?) and a branch of the same business in Tysons Corner Center (the one with Nordstrom, not the one with Macy's). They sell among other things, the New Electric Railway Journal, model trains, signs of all types (not originals), and many books, including most of the subway ones. Lots of other rail stuff can be bought at the National Capital Trolley Museum in the northern part of Wheaton, MD. and the Baltimore Streetcar Museum on Falls Road off Lanvale St. and Maryland Avenue in Baltimore.
        
        Subject: Re: DC Area's Metro-rail
        Message Number: 762041
        Posted by: Mark Greenwald
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:45:14 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]DC Area's Metro-rail posted by Chris Matheson on January 12, 1998 at 16:05:32: To answer your questions---Yes, the system is fully automated, the only thing the "motormen" do is open the doors and do announcements. That's not to mention though that in the case of an emergency, they could manually operate a train or in a yard area. As for a link to Metro, here it is [9]This is a link to Metro
        
        Subject: Re: DC Area's Metro-rail
        Message Number: 762043
        Posted by: Mark Greenwald
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:45:18 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: DC Area's Metro-rail posted by Mark Greenwald on January 14, 1998 at 09:48:47: Oh, I forgot to mention--If you like talking about the Metrorail specifically, the Washington Post has a discussion area in which there are several subjects being discussed---Just go into the section that is designed for commuters or the metro (I forgot what it's actually labeled). If you want more info. e-mail me.
        
        Subject: Re: DC Area's Metro-rail
        Message Number: 762072
        Posted by: Mike K
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:46:38 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: DC Area's Metro-rail posted by Philip Nasadowski on January 12, 1998 at 23:26:25: On PATCO, the only time the operator actually "drives" the train is on the rush hour expresses and short run trains. If he/she did not do that, the train would still actually stop at each station. The manual operation allows the operator to override the system and skip stops.

Thread title: PATH (761934)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:40:15 1998, by Jack

Subject: PATH
Message Number: 761934
Posted by: Jack
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:40:15 1998

Have there been any accidents on PATH? They seem to have sharp curves on the ROW to Hoboken.

Thread title: Old Subway Signs (761936)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:40:21 1998, by Adam

Subject: Old Subway Signs
Message Number: 761936
Posted by: Adam
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:40:21 1998

I was wondering what happens to the old signs in the subway that are taken down when a station is refurbished. I was in the Canal Street station today which was recently redone, and I must mention that the new mosaics and tiling look beautiful. But gone are the former white lettering on black signs that said Canal Street (and some were even in Chinese!). I was wondering what is done with these old signs and if it is possible to obtain them from somewhere. Thanks!
- Subject: Re: Old Subway Signs
- Message Number: 761939
- Posted by: Allan
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:40:29 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Old Subway Signs posted by Adam on January 12, 1998 at 18:42:03: According to Tom Harrington (NY Transit Museum Curator), it is supposidly written into all contracts on refurbishing of stations that all signs and other items of historical value go to the Museum. I asked Tom why those items are not for sale at the Museum. He stated that he saves those items for major events (dinners/fund raisers) and sells them to people willing to pay big $ for those things. I tend to believe this to be true (although I don't totally agree with it). When the Museum first opened (as the Transit Exhibit) and through the early 1980's they would always have roll signs, station signs and similiar items on sale at the Museum at all times. For anyone who wonders why they don't have the Tag Sale/auction anymore, it is because the last one they had was so poorly attended (the weather was lousy) that the whole idea was dropped.
  - Subject: Re: Old Subway Signs
  - Message Number: 761949
  - Posted by: Adam
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:40:58 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Old Subway Signs posted by Allan on January 12, 1998 at 19:19:44: Allan - Thanks for the info. Too bad that they dropped the Tag Sale/auction. I attended it and it was really nice. I'd like to see it revived if at all possible. Also, if there's anybody on this board who's selling anything transit-related, visit TransitAds and post an ad. It's a great page and I couldn't resist plugging it here. I forgot the www address but you can get it through the links from this site.

Thread title: What Station (761940)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:40:33 1998, by Blade-Runner

Subject: What Station
Message Number: 761940
Posted by: Blade-Runner
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:40:33 1998

Can anyone tell me which station the D train is shown stopping at on the MTA's official NY subway website? It's a color shot of an outdoor station with a fair amount of greenery in the background...
- Subject: What Station
- Message Number: 761941
- Posted by: Blade-Runner
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:40:37 1998
  
  Can anyone tell me which station the D train is shown stopping at on the MTA's official NY subway website? It's a color shot of an outdoor station with a fair amount of greenery in the background...
  - Subject: Re: What Station
  - Message Number: 761944
  - Posted by: Joshua Caesar
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:40:47 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]What Station posted by Blade-Runner on January 12, 1998 at 20:12:25: Where within the MTA web sitet [9]? I can't seem to find the picture you are talking about? Josh
    - Subject: Re: What Station
    - Message Number: 761945
    - Posted by: Blade-Runner
    - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:40:49 1998
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: What Station posted by Joshua Caesar on January 12, 1998 at 22:41:14: The MTA Website is www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/nyct.htm. If you click on the 'subway information' button, you get to the picture (...nyct/Subway/submain.htm)
      - Subject: Re: What Station
      - Message Number: 761947
      - Posted by: Mike B
      - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:40:53 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]What Station posted by Blade-Runner on January 12, 1998 at 20:12:25: It's either Beverly or Cortelyou Road. The picture of the D train was taken while the local track was out of service. The D train is actually on the express track with a temporary platform built over the local tracks.
        
        Subject: Re: What Station
        Message Number: 761950
        Posted by: Adam
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:41:00 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]What Station posted by Blade-Runner on January 12, 1998 at 20:12:25: Check out the "behind the scenes" photo gallery on the MTA homepage for the NYC Subway. Some pretty cool pictures.
        
        Subject: Re: What Station
        Message Number: 762062
        Posted by: Josh Caesar
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:46:05 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: What Station posted by Blade-Runner on January 12, 1998 at 22:53:34: I am not sure what the station is, but maybe someone else on Subtalk would know. Josh Caesar [9][LINK]
        
        Subject: Re: What Station
        Message Number: 762067
        Posted by: David Pirmann
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:46:20 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: What Station posted by Josh Caesar on January 14, 1998 at 19:46:40: I think someone else already posted the answer, but that's Cortelyou Road. Standing at the south end of the southbound platform facing north. The platform in the picture is a temporary one which was built at local stations during the reconstruction of the Brighton local tracks a few years ago (1993?) -Dave
        
        Subject: Re: What Station
        Message Number: 762068
        Posted by: David Pirmann
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:46:24 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: What Station posted by Josh Caesar on January 14, 1998 at 19:46:40: By the way, here's a similar view taken from pretty much the same location in April 1997 by myself. I'm at the extreme end of the southbound platform but the zoom lens makes it look like I'm closer to the station house (which has had some renovation in the past couple years, obviously. Some new paint and a new picture window over the tracks). [9][LINK] -Dave

Thread title: 6th Avenue Service before Chrystie Street Opened (761946)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:40:51 1998, by Mike B

Subject: 6th Avenue Service before Chrystie Street Opened
Message Number: 761946
Posted by: Mike B
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:40:51 1998

Can anyone elaborate on what lines ran on 6th Avenue before Chrystie Street opened and where the lines terminated. The only one I remember is the D which ran from 205th Street-Concourse to Coney Island via Culver.
- Subject: Re: 6th Avenue Service before Chrystie Street Opened
- Message Number: 761954
- Posted by: david vartanoff
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:41:11 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]6th Avenue Service before Chrystie Street Opened posted by Mike B on January 12, 1998 at 23:20:59: D Concourse 205-Coney Island via McDonald(Culver) Bronx Express in direction of rush only during AM or PM Mon-Fri Manhattan Express 145-34 all times 34th st to Coney Island local all times BB 168 Wash Hts. 34th & 6th rush only M-F local F 179-Jamaica-to B'way Laffayette M-F Exp Queens Local Man base day till8p? to 34th&6th evenings owl, & weekends
  - Subject: Re: 6th Avenue Service before Chrystie Street Opened
  - Message Number: 761969
  - Posted by: Dan Schwartz
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:41:49 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: 6th Avenue Service before Chrystie Street Opened posted by david vartanoff on January 12, 1998 at 23:58:13: > D Concourse 205-Coney Island via McDonald(Culver) > Bronx Express in direction of rush only during AM or PM Mon-Fri > Manhattan Express 145-34 all times > 34th st to Coney Island local all times > BB 168 Wash Hts. 34th & 6th rush only M-F local > F 179-Jamaica-to B'way Laffayette M-F Exp Queens Local Man base day > till8p? > to 34th&6th evenings owl, & weekends I'm pretty sure the F ran to B'way-Lafayette 24 hours a day, at least near the end. On Saturday night, 11/25/67, I rode down to B'way-Lafayette to see the last night of the "old" operations. I was there about 11 PM. Southbound F's, consisting of R-38 cars, were terminating there on the SB inner ("express") track. Southbound D's, consisting of R-1/9 cars, were running through on the "local" track to Coney Island. I rode one down to Jay St., then wne back home - to the Bronx! I went back early next morning. About 7 AM, on the same platform, southbound D's consisting of R-32 cars now stopped at the inner platform, running through to Coney Island via the new connection and the Brighton line. Southbound F's, consisting of R-1/9 cars, now ran on the outer track, running to Coney Island via Culver just like the D's had done the night before. I rode a new D to DeKalb Ave., observing the new Grand St. station (and the view from the Manhattan Bridge) in the process, then turned around and went home again. P.S. The practice of using colored circles to identify trains began that day as well. I was intrigued by the new style signs posted over the tracks at DeKalb Ave., identifying trains and their destinatins by colored circles. These were originally black on white, but soon they switched to white on black. P.P.S. My parents apparently thought that I had been out all night, and they were pretty upset.
    - Subject: Re: 6th Avenue Service before Chrystie Street Opened
    - Message Number: 762011
    - Posted by: david vartanoff
    - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:43:46 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: 6th Avenue Service before Chrystie Street Opened posted by Dan Schwartz on January 13, 1998 at 06:22:16: I explicitly remember that in 66 the F terminated midtown late evenings nights. In turn you and I probably were in some of the same places over that weekend as I also spent much of it out on the subway including hanging in the platform conductor's booth at DeKalb announcing a train. Rode first 'new' N over southside Mbridge. Was there Monday morning AM rush helping to direct passengers as most of the trains had wrong or blank head signs. I loved the color code signage which came in then, but the best of all was an R-40 with a green fluorescent tube among the several tubes back lighting the huge route letter display. Green & fuscia yum!
      - Subject: Re: 6th Avenue Service before Chrystie Street Opened
      - Message Number: 762019
      - Posted by: Mike B
      - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:44:06 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: 6th Avenue Service before Chrystie Street Opened posted by david vartanoff on January 13, 1998 at 18:06:58: There were stories written that on the 1st day the Chrystie Street Connection opened, no one knew which trains went where and there was mass confusion throughout the system because of this. Does anyone remember how bad it really was? Did the TA (MTA) not advertise/announce the changes in advance or were the reports of mass confusion exaggerated?
        
        Subject: Re: 6th Avenue Service before Chrystie Street Opened
        Message Number: 762025
        Posted by: Dan Schwartz
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:44:23 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: 6th Avenue Service before Chrystie Street Opened posted by Mike B on January 13, 1998 at 21:02:44: > Did the TA (MTA) not advertise/announce the changes in > advance or were the reports of mass confusion exaggerated? They certainly did announce them well in advance, with colorful, descriptive flyers being handed out at token booths for several weeks before the change. But New Yorkers being New Yorkers, some people just didn't "RTFM" and so there was apparently a significant level of confusion.
        
        Subject: Re: 6th Avenue Service before Chrystie Street Opened
        Message Number: 762028
        Posted by: david vartanoff
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:44:31 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: 6th Avenue Service before Chrystie Street Opened posted by Mike B on January 13, 1998 at 21:02:44: although notices were posted in the subway cars saying certain routes would br replaced with new routes the actual new services were not well described and indeed on the first abd many suceeding dats many trains operated with wrong or missing signage. frinstance "B 6th Ave Express-168 Jamaica" !! I remember seeing some neighborhood paper in Bay Ridge the next summer still complaining about the changes and calling for a return to old routes. Part of the problem had to do with "skips DeKalb during rush hour" patterns. In any event the lack of clear signage and poor training of personnel combined with ingrained hanits = snafu. Now of course its all water under whats left of the bridge.
        
        Subject: Re: 6th Avenue Service before Chrystie Street Opened
        Message Number: 762040
        Posted by: Ed Sachs
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:45:12 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: 6th Avenue Service before Chrystie Street Opened posted by Dan Schwartz on January 14, 1998 at 00:13:18: I recall the colorful flyers. I also recall that full system maps were not made available until some weeks after the changeover.

Thread title: Metrocard fraud (761962)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:41:30 1998, by A. Pardi

Subject: Metrocard fraud
Message Number: 761962
Posted by: A. Pardi
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:41:30 1998

I suspected sooner or later some crack head junkie or what not would be able to damage a fare card and end up having it become semi usable to swipe someone and collect money. Come on folks wake up and smell the coffee this ends up costing us money oh yeah someone got over on the big bad MTA ha ha well guess what it comes back to slap us all in the face. sure probably you think your helping some poor sap get some money for food or shelter guess what thats not where its going.....
- Subject: Re: Metrocard fraud
- Message Number: 762015
- Posted by: Adam
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:43:56 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Metrocard fraud posted by A. Pardi on January 13, 1998 at 01:04:00: I heard of this guy one time who has the key to a gate that allows entrance into a subway station, and he lets people in for a dollar. But the Police are unable to stop him because everytime they bust him they can't find the key anywhere. Has anyone else heard this story, and if so what station is it and is this guy still in operation?
  - Subject: Re: Metrocard fraud
  - Message Number: 762022
  - Posted by: Peter Rosa
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:44:17 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Metrocard fraud posted by Adam on January 13, 1998 at 20:24:45: That story was recounted in the book _Subway Lives_, written in 1989 or 1990. It took place, as I recall, at Greenpoint Avenue. As bureaucratic as the TA might be, I'm sure they've finally changed the lock and shut down this operation ... presumably :-)
    - Subject: Re: Metrocard fraud
    - Message Number: 762024
    - Posted by: Steve
    - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:44:21 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: Metrocard fraud posted by Peter Rosa on January 13, 1998 at 23:03:23: Back in the 80s,every station lock was keyed the same and virtually every employee had a TA400 key. Now, station department has changed all of the locks and the keys are not nearly so freely distributed. To date, I have not been given one.
      - Subject: Re: Metrocard fraud
      - Message Number: 762034
      - Posted by: Gary
      - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:44:53 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Metrocard fraud posted by Steve on January 13, 1998 at 23:40:28: The keys remain the same but the locks have been changed to protect the innocent. Both the 400 and the 69 keys are restricted in distribution but for the most part, availible, as are many others.
        
        Subject: Re: Metrocard fraud
        Message Number: 762069
        Posted by: a.aprdi
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:46:29 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Metrocard fraud posted by Gary on January 14, 1998 at 09:18:02: to my knowledge supervision ( sta sup level 1 & 2 sta mgr. supt and gen supt acso and cso) have ta400 ta475 and 069 keys. as far as cleaners clerks and other rank and file employees these keys are not issued.
        
        Subject: Re: Metrocard fraud
        Message Number: 762083
        Posted by: Subman23
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:47:01 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Metrocard fraud posted by a.aprdi on January 14, 1998 at 21:04:30: In addition to the below mentioned Division of Stations employees, Transit Bureau police officers have been issued 069 keys. Also, these cops and NYCTA supervisory employee's have keys to open service gates. Some vandals have obtained all above mentioned keys. Unfortunately, different locks can not be fitted on each service gate so that criminals can not have free access to the system and hand collect at closed entrances. Uniform locks are needed for emergency situations where T.A. or police personnel need rapid access at these entrances. Transit Bureau managers need to post plain clothed cops at these areas freequently visited by hand collectors. These hand collectors usually work in teams and flee before uniform officers arrive on the scene.

Thread title: 14 st - Canarsie Local Line (761963)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:41:33 1998, by Shawn

Subject: 14 st - Canarsie Local Line
Message Number: 761963
Posted by: Shawn
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:41:33 1998

I would like to find any information that could tell me how deep underground the 14 St. Canarsie Local "L" line is as it approaches the East River on the Manhattan side -- at the East River Park. Any information would be greatly appreciated.
- Subject: 14 st - Canarsie Local Line
- Message Number: 761964
- Posted by: Shawn
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:41:36 1998
  
  I would like to find any information that could tell me how deep underground the 14 St. Canarsie Local "L" line is as it approaches the East River on the Manhattan side -- at the East River Park. Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Thread title: March 98 Westside depot (761965)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:41:39 1998, by Fernando Perez

Subject: March 98 Westside depot
Message Number: 761965
Posted by: Fernando Perez
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:41:39 1998

The final adjustments of route changes has been made and posted for a special general pick togo into effect March 2,1998. Here are the new route assignments: Amsterdam-BX6,BX15,M104,M100 Mother Clara Hale-M1,M7,BX19,BX21,BX33 Manhattanville-M2,3,4,5,101,103,60 Hudson-M6,8,9,11,14,21,22,23,Q32 Westside-M10,30,34,42,50,72,79,86,96/106,98,X90/92 Gunhill-BX4,5,8,12,14,16,17,22,27,28,29,31,34,39,40/42 Kingsbridge-Bx1,2,3,7,10,13,18,20,32,35,36,41,55 Because of the Lenox Av. construction project, there will be special services added to the lines in the areas. Included will be special Bx15 shuttles between Broadway and Lenox Av's increased service on the M116 and Bx19 and limited service on the 102's on Lenox av. The m116 and M35 are going to 126St TA depot.
- Subject: Re: March 98 Westside depot
- Message Number: 761973
- Posted by: Wayne Johnson
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:42:11 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]March 98 Westside depot posted by Fernando Perez on January 13, 1998 at 01:57:40: Thanks Fernando, I just wanted to add that Kingsbridge will also have the Bx11 once again.
  - Subject: Re: March 98 Westside depot
  - Message Number: 762027
  - Posted by: steve L
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:44:28 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]March 98 Westside depot posted by Fernando Perez on January 13, 1998 at 01:57:40: thank you for the info ---Steve

Thread title: "L" Line (761966)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:41:42 1998, by Shawn

Subject: "L" Line
Message Number: 761966
Posted by: Shawn
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:41:42 1998

I would like to find any information that could tell me how deep underground the 14 St. Canarsie Local "L" line is as it approaches the East River on the Manhattan side -- at the East River Park. Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Thread title: The "Line by Line" Posts (761970)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:41:52 1998, by Will

Subject: The "Line by Line" Posts
Message Number: 761970
Posted by: Will
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:41:52 1998

Are these new line by line descriptions going to be available anywhere on this website besides the SubTalk? They are EXCELLENT and should be made a permanent part of the NYC Subway Resources.
- Subject: Re: The "Line by Line" Posts
- Message Number: 761984
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:42:41 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]The "Line by Line" Posts posted by Will on January 13, 1998 at 08:57:00: When Mark is done editing he'll send me the finished text, I'll mark it up into a web page, and add photos from the site. In the mean time, if anyone else wants to work on a history, here's what no one is working on (that I know of) Queens - Flushing, Jamaica, Fulton - Rockaway, IND Queens Boulevard (Astoria - in progress) Brooklyn Brighton/Franklin (Mark?), IND Church St Bronx Pelham 6, Woodlawn 4, 241-st - 2, 3rd Avenue El, IND Concourse (Dyre Ave. - in progress see [9]NY Westchester & Boston) Etc. etc. etc. -Dave
  - Subject: Re: The "Line by Line" Posts
  - Message Number: 761986
  - Posted by: Charles Fiori
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:42:45 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: The "Line by Line" Posts posted by David Pirmann on January 13, 1998 at 10:56:54: David, I might be able to tackle Flushing, and/or Queens Boulevard in the next few weeks. Flushing is the line I know best, and the one where I have the most pictures. I have seen the great pieces already composed on this site, but if you have any druthers, let me know. Should any of my colleagues absolutely KNOW they have the time to commit, I will defer.
    - Subject: Re: The "Line by Line" Posts
    - Message Number: 761993
    - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
    - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:43:00 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]The "Line by Line" Posts posted by Will on January 13, 1998 at 08:57:00: Will .. Thanks for the positive comments regarding my "line by line" posts. Seems I've started a trend! I posted them here for comments, corrections, omissions, and the like, because many of the people who follow SubTalk know the history better than I do, especially regarding older service routings. I have received some terrific feedback on them from folks' personal experiences and memories with the lines. Once I get the info, I add it to my text as appropriate. When all is said and done. I'll send the whole kit and kaboodle to Dave and we'll get the pictures included, too. (Everything's already in HTML as I've been using Netscape's Composer to create it all, and I've just copied/pasted it to SubTalk.) Regarding Brighton / Franklin, yes, I'm going to revise the existing text on the Brighton Line and make it consistent with the others I've created. As my "home" line, I have lots to say on it from a railfan's point of view. I'm also going to do a writeup on the 4th Avenue (Brooklyn) subway because 3 of the 4 lines I already covered ran into it at some point in their histories, and I have some info on it as well. After that, I dunno, I'll find one no one else started doing yet! --Mark
      - Subject: Re: The "Line by Line" Posts
      - Message Number: 761994
      - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
      - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:43:02 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: The "Line by Line" Posts posted by David Pirmann on January 13, 1998 at 10:56:54: Dave, yes, I'll update the current entry on the Brighton Line and will also do one on the 4th Ave (Brooklyn) Subway. It'll nicely tie the stuff I did about Sea Beach & West End together. --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: The "Line by Line" Posts
        Message Number: 761995
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:43:04 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: The "Line by Line" Posts posted by Charles Fiori on January 13, 1998 at 12:00:00: Go for it, Charles. If you know stuff on the once vast Queensboro Plaza before the demise of the 2nd AVe El, that would be a treat. --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: The "Line by Line" Posts
        Message Number: 761996
        Posted by: Charles Fiori
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:43:07 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: The "Line by Line" Posts posted by Mark S Feinman on January 13, 1998 at 12:48:34: O, Guru of the line-by-lines, I am not worthy. :-) The book I have on NY Elevateds has a good write-up on the Queensboro Plaza complex. Like others, I wondered what the structure was along the Flushing bound local track that stub ended just before the curve into Rawson St and had no idea that there was actually a duplicate set of platforms north of what's there now. This will be fun, but to do it right, it will take some time, as I am sure you will agree. Any Flushing experts out there, feel free to chime in.

Thread title: Re: What Station -- An Answer (761971)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:41:58 1998, by Carl M. Rabbin

Subject: Re: What Station -- An Answer
Message Number: 761971
Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:41:58 1998

In Reply to: [7]What Station posted by Blade-Runner on January 12, 1998 at 20:12:39: It is probably Cortelyou Road on the Brighton Line and it is definitely looking at a Coney-Island bound train (looking north from the southern end of the southbound platform). It can only be either Beverley or Cortelyou because those are the only two local stations below ground with the little building for a station entrance. Parkside Avenue and Avenue H have different entrance styles. E. 16 St. at Beverley Road has only private houses and a tiny little wooden taxi stand on its Southwest corner (southeast of the station entrance). Cortelyou Road has a candy store right next to the subway entrance building (the red brick building next to it in the picture). On E. 16 St south of Cortelyou Road there are mainly red brick apartment houses with a couple of private houses in the middle of the block leading to Dorchester Road (south of Cortelyou). I went to P.S. 139 on Cortelyou Road a few decades ago, so I know the neighborhood ...well... the way everyone knows the neighborhood they grew up in.

Thread title: Longest Lines Past, Present, and Future. (761972)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:42:05 1998, by Christopher Rivera

Subject: Longest Lines Past, Present, and Future.
Message Number: 761972
Posted by: Christopher Rivera
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:42:05 1998

I have been thinking about this questions for my subway book that I am writing a bout. What is the longest line in New York City History? I have made 3 Guesses 1. The 1979 C train that ran from the Bronx to the Rockaways (Only line in New York City History to go into 4 broughs) 2. The 4 train after midnight. Woodlawn to New Lots Avenue. 3. The F Train from 179 street to Coney Island. Tell me what you think about my answers and give some of your answers. Thanks 1 down 74 to go.
- Subject: Re: Longest Lines Past, Present, and Future.
- Message Number: 761978
- Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:42:26 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]Longest Lines Past, Present, and Future. posted by Christopher Rivera on January 13, 1998 at 09:24:39: The longest is the E train that ran from 179 St. Jamaica to Far Rockaway or Rockaway Park in the 1960s and early 70s.
  - Subject: Re: Longest Lines Past, Present, and Future.
  - Message Number: 761987
  - Posted by: John Stewart
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:42:46 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: Longest Lines Past, Present, and Future. posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 13, 1998 at 09:46:49: What was the route of this line? Did the train go from 179 Jamaica, then into Manhattan and out to Brooklyn? I used to take the E train regularly from the World Trade Center to 71st/Continental Ave. I can't imagine it going to the Rockaways. By the way, I always enjoy your postings, Carl. They're always extremely informative. You also have a great sense of history. Thanks!
    - Subject: Re: Longest Lines Past, Present, and Future.
    - Message Number: 761988
    - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
    - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:42:48 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: Longest Lines Past, Present, and Future. posted by John Stewart on January 13, 1998 at 12:01:55: The E train used to run to Euclid Ave and Rockaway Park along the same route as the "A" train. --Mark
      - Subject: Re: Longest Lines Past, Present, and Future.
      - Message Number: 761990
      - Posted by: Wayne Johnson
      - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:42:52 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Longest Lines Past, Present, and Future. posted by Christopher Rivera on January 13, 1998 at 09:24:39: Not totally sure, but I thought that the A from 207th-Bway to Mott Ave-Far Rock was the longest TA line.
        
        Subject: Re: Longest Lines Past, Present, and Future.
        Message Number: 761991
        Posted by: Peter Rosa
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:42:54 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Longest Lines Past, Present, and Future. posted by Christopher Rivera on January 13, 1998 at 09:24:39: Today, the longest line is the A from 207th to Far Rockaway, at about 32 miles. I believe the 2 is a close second.
        
        Subject: Re: Longest Lines Past, Present, and Future.
        Message Number: 761992
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:42:55 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Longest Lines Past, Present, and Future. posted by Christopher Rivera on January 13, 1998 at 09:24:39: Other long lines that I can think of are: - A train from 207th St Manhattan to Mott Ave in Far Rockaway - D train from 205th St in the Bronx to Coney Island, Brooklyn - 2 train from 241st & White Plains Road the Bronx to Flatbush Ave, Brooklyn - 5 train from Dyre Ave to Flatbush Ave Brooklyn --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: Longest Lines Past, Present, and Future.
        Message Number: 762013
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:43:51 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Longest Lines Past, Present, and Future. posted by John Stewart on January 13, 1998 at 12:01:55: My recollection from 1957-1963 was that all AM E-trains came into Euclid avenue from the yards to begin their express runs, and in the PM conversely terminated at Euclid. Only A trains went on to Lefferts and the Rockaways.
        
        Subject: Re: Longest Lines Past, Present, and Future.
        Message Number: 762078
        Posted by: Mike K
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:46:50 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Longest Lines Past, Present, and Future. posted by Christopher Rivera on January 13, 1998 at 09:24:39: What about the F line between 179th Street and Coney Island?
        
        Subject: Re: Longest Lines Past, Present, and Future.
        Message Number: 762125
        Posted by: Andrew Huie
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:48:39 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Longest Lines Past, Present, and Future. posted by Peter Rosa on January 13, 1998 at 12:31:02: Not that close. When the 2 went to New Lots, it was only 27 miles, and that was farther than Flatbush Avenue. I personally think the C, when it went from Bedford Pk Blvd to Rockaway Pk, was the all-time longest.
        
        Subject: Re: Longest Lines Past, Present, and Future.
        Message Number: 762129
        Posted by: Mellow One
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:48:50 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Longest Lines Past, Present, and Future. posted by Christopher Rivera on January 13, 1998 at 09:24:39: I read most of the responses and in most cases the ride is described. For example, the D Train south on the Concourse Line to the Junction with the Washington Heights Line and south on the 8th Ave Line to 59th St and the junction with the 6th Ave Line, then south on 6th Ave, and so on ... In railroad terms, every time you enter or leave a junction you either stay in your own division or line or enter or exit another. The Rockaway cross channel line starts at the Fulton Ave El extension of the Fulton Ave Line. Then there is a junction to either Far Rockaway to the east or Rockaway Park to the west. Although the Rockaways may be on the same line or division, the channel crossing segment is probably handled as a seperate division due to the movable bridges and as a connector to the lines at each end. So, which line is the longest, in terms of division boundries?

Thread title: The Ex C train Line The madness (761974)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:42:14 1998, by Christopher Rivera

Subject: The Ex C train Line The madness
Message Number: 761974
Posted by: Christopher Rivera
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:42:14 1998

In the 70's and 80's the C train was the Grand Daddy of rush hour trains. But when the 90's rolled in the C train place in rush hour service was to be gone. Now they have 3 terminals for the Uptown service and 2 Terminals for the Downtown service. That Bites. It more confusing every single day. Why did the MTA do that can some body explain this to me. Before they do this again.
- Subject: Re: The Ex C train Line The madness
- Message Number: 761989
- Posted by: Wayne Johnson
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:42:50 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]The Ex C train Line The madness posted by Christopher Rivera on January 13, 1998 at 09:33:25: It pretty much replaced the old AA (and later the K) train which was the 8 Ave local Between 168th-WTC all times except rush hours and late nights. As for political and/or other reasons - I don't know.

Thread title: Re: DC Area's Metro-rail: The motor(wo)men are wonderful (761975)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:42:16 1998, by Carl M. Rabbin

Subject: Re: DC Area's Metro-rail: The motor(wo)men are wonderful
Message Number: 761975
Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:42:16 1998

In Reply to: [7]Re: DC Area's Metro-rail posted by Philip Nasadowski on January 12, 1998 at 23:26:25: I don't think your description of Metro rail drivers is fair. They may not drive the train directly most of the time, but they are responsible for its operation, for its ontime service, for watching the doors to close them, taking the trains to the yards, and piloting the train when necessary. Sometimes it takes more common sense than a book-learned person may have to perform tasks in a safe and trustworthy way. (And I have 2 Master's degrees but I would not trust me to drive a bus or train for others.) I assure you I always feel safe on a DC Metro train.

Thread title: Re: position light signals (Attn: David Pirmann) (761977)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:42:21 1998, by Andrew Byler

Subject: Re: position light signals (Attn: David Pirmann)
Message Number: 761977
Posted by: Andrew Byler
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:42:21 1998

In Reply to: [8]position light signals posted by aaron on January 09, 1998 at 10:05:55: A while ago, I had posted all of the various combinations of PRR position light signals in ASCII format to an old netnews bboard on railroads netnews.rec.railraods, which David Pirmann, editor of this board, had saved and spruced up with color for this site. Now this seems to have disappeared from here. Perhaps David could post the link to this post, or tell what happened to it, as I am unsure where it is. The information was from several articles in "The High Line" the publication of the Philadelphia Chapter of the Pennsylvania Railroad Technical and Historical Society from around 92 or 93. If Daivd is interested, I'd send him the relevant pages to repost once I copy them again. Andy
- Subject: Re: position light signals (Attn: David Pirmann)
- Message Number: 762004
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:43:24 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Re: position light signals (Attn: David Pirmann) posted by Andrew Byler on January 13, 1998 at 09:44:34: I removed the article that you mention. Some PRR fans mailed me and informed me othat there were errors in it. Whether or not there were actually any errors or not I don't really know, but I figured I'd leave it to the PRR fan web sites to do. If you look in the [9]Rail and Transit Sites list there is a link or two to PRR web sites that have more detailed information. -Dave

Thread title: Re: The C train Line The madness -- Soon to End (761979)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:42:30 1998, by Carl M. Rabbin

Subject: Re: The C train Line The madness -- Soon to End
Message Number: 761979
Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:42:30 1998

In Reply to: [7]The Ex C train Line The madness posted by Christopher Rivera on January 13, 1998 at 09:33:25: People on this page have stated that the C will soon always go to 168 St. - Washington Hts. and the B train will get all the constantly changing northern terminals (145 St, Bedford Park Blvd, 21-Queensbridge, 36 St-4th Avenue). Then the C's only variations will be Euclid Avenue or WTC. The B will always go south to Coney Island.
- Subject: Re: The C train Line The madness -- Soon to End
- Message Number: 761999
- Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:43:14 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]Re: The C train Line The madness -- Soon to End posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 13, 1998 at 09:50:06: I have given it some more thought. Why they have done this thing that confuses you so much is: Traditionally the C (and previously CC) always went up the Concourse line during rush hours. When the MTA decided to cut back the number of letters of trains (and especially to revert to one letter for each train), it was logical to make every 8th Avenue / Central Park West local the C train and every 6th Avenue / CPW local the B train. I don't find the terminals so confusing: weekdays Euclid, weekends WTC; rush BPB, weekdays 145, weekends 168. You just see which one it says and take it if it goes where you need to. The C has been sort of a catchall local for local/express service all over the 8th Avenue subway. And because it's a local most people only worry about one end of it per trip. If you start at 167 St. in the Bronx the odds are you are not going to take it all the way to Kingston-Throop in Brooklyn. Anyway, now I'm just being argumentative. But the new schedule will make it easier. The C will hardly change at all, just the Euclid vs. WTC terminals. The B, well that's a different story (actually the same story -- catchall local -- all over again).

Thread title: Boston's Green Line "E" Branch (761983)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:42:38 1998, by Michael S. Buglak

Subject: Boston's Green Line "E" Branch
Message Number: 761983
Posted by: Michael S. Buglak
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:42:38 1998

Does anyone know when full rail service will be restored on the MBTA's Green Line "E" Brnach from Heath Street to Arborway? Also, why does the replacement Route 39 bus run all the way to Back Bay Station on the Orange Line inbound, instead from just Heath Street to Forest Hills? Thanks! Michael S. Buglak, Collegeville, PA (Visiting Boston)
- Subject: Re: Boston's Green Line "E" Branch
- Message Number: 761998
- Posted by: Todd Glickman
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:43:11 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Boston's Green Line "E" Branch posted by Michael S. Buglak on January 13, 1998 at 10:44:54: There are no "current" plans to restore trolley service along the E branch of the Green Line to Arborway. The MBTA says that (1) they don't have enough cars and (2) the streets are too narrow and crowded for service. Well, the new Bredas arrive this and next year; PCCs ran successfully in the streets to Arborway for decades. Many of us who live in Boston believe that there should be immediate resumption of service, but the MBTA has resisted for a long time. When trolley service was discontinued from Arborway the MBTA agreed to maintain one-seat rides to Copley, which is why the bus still goes there. -Todd (in Phoenix for a weather conference, where there is NO electric rail service of any kind!)
  - Subject: Re: Boston's Green Line "E" Branch
  - Message Number: 762003
  - Posted by: Timothy S. Speer
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:43:22 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Boston's Green Line "E" Branch posted by Todd Glickman on January 13, 1998 at 13:26:22: A couple of things lead me to believe that trolleys will probably never again run all the way out to Arborway. I live on Arborway, just up the hill from South Street and have noticed the following: 1. The Arborway yards have been converted to a parking lot for the Forest Hills stop 2. The overhead wires have been removed from the Arborway yard back to around Rosemary Street Question: Are the wires still live all the way to where they have been cut back? I agree that with the way people in Boston drive and double park, it would be a nightmare to restore E service past Heath. Perhaps with INTENSE enforcement and no left turn restrictions on Centre and South Streets things could be different. I sure would love to be able to catch a trolley practically at my doorstep, despite the fact that it's only a few hundred feet to the Orange and Commuter lines.

Thread title: Re: Queensboro Bridge Trolley (Re: Last day of service questions) (761997)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:43:09 1998, by Mark S Feinman

Subject: Re: Queensboro Bridge Trolley (Re: Last day of service questions)
Message Number: 761997
Posted by: Mark S Feinman
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:43:09 1998

In Reply to: [8]Brooklyn Trolleys (Re: Last day of service questions) posted by Mark S Feinman on January 10, 1998 at 15:14:57: The Queensboro Bridge Trolley ran into 1957, but does anyone remember when in 1957 they stopped running?? June?? --Mark

Thread title: Automated trains (762000)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:43:16 1998, by Rob Stougher

Subject: Automated trains
Message Number: 762000
Posted by: Rob Stougher
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:43:16 1998

If the DC Subway is automated except for doors, then is there a set time limit the operator has? If, for instance the motorman was to not pay attention (when I was there he was reading a book) is he alerted? American Airlines set up a fully automated "trAAm" service between their terminals at DFW. It is within the security zone of the airport, and features a glass partition that separates the track from the terminal. Doors line up with, what can best be described as supermarket doors and they both open together. There is a series of signs, TrAAm Aproaching, Board TrAAm now, Do Not Board TrAAm now, and a VMS. According to the plan, it runs every 2 minutes, but people are impatient, and try to hold open the doors. I believe there to be 3 trAAms on the system, and I was in one that stopped because of "door operation interferance". I like the two-partion system, I think if modren subways were to install such a system (which I know to be impossible) it would make it that much harder to "fall" on to the rails, enter the tunnels for vandialization, and you could enable climate control of the individual stations, elevated or underground. If DART rapid rail ever gets to its goal, this would be nice, keep me out of the heat! Y'all Respond, now, ya hear! Rob, from Big D
- Subject: Re: Automated trains
- Message Number: 762053
- Posted by: Bill Mosteller
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:45:40 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Automated trains posted by Rob Stougher on January 13, 1998 at 13:39:01: I live in Northern Virginia and ride our Metro occasionally, and I've not seen such lax behavior on the part of an operator. As I understand it, there is a dwell time factored into the control system. I learned this from an episode (related second hand) in which a train escaped its operator. Once it departed the station, leaving the operator behind, it stopped at the rest of the stations on the run, waited the dwell time (a minute or so?), noticed that the doors were closed (since the absent operator had not opened them), and proceeded on. I'm glad I wasn't on the train. Double doors sound nice, but are pretty difficult. BART has door stop pads painted on the platforms, and claims to hit within a foot of them. The time I last rode (May of last year) the error appeared to be more like +/- 3 feet. One transit official I know remarks that with current technology they're happy when a train as long as the platform stops fully on the platform! Hitting door marks or the equivalent is probably too hard, apparently.
  - Subject: Re: Automated trains
  - Message Number: 762056
  - Posted by: Rob Stougher
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:45:49 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: Automated trains posted by Bill Mosteller on January 14, 1998 at 14:08:27: The TrAAm system works like this: (Granted it is a light rail-type system) Velocity is decreased to about 5 MPH before approaching a platform, and the train slowly comes to a stop, almost inching its way to the partitions. The platform doors are slightly wider than the trAAm doors, to take into account for small errors. When I have had the privilege to have to transfer at DFW, I have used this system frequently, and it always has stopped dead center in the opening. Higher-speed systems would probabaly have more of a problem, though. It would need to be in a system under construction, I think: take for example retro-fitting the Metro-Rail - It would be a shame to close in the beautiful barrel-vaulted stations.
    - Subject: Re: Automated trains
    - Message Number: 762058
    - Posted by: David Pirmann
    - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:45:56 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: Automated trains posted by Bill Mosteller on January 14, 1998 at 14:08:27: > Double doors sound nice, but are pretty difficult The Newark Airport monorail has platform doors. The one time I've ridden the mono it seems to work okay. Singapore has them on the subway portions of its metro lines. The Jubilee Line Extension in London (see [9]http://www.jle.lul.co.uk) will have them as well. I'm not sure if they plan to refit the existing portion of the line with them though.
      - Subject: Re: Automated trains
      - Message Number: 762100
      - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
      - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:47:49 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Automated trains posted by Bill Mosteller on January 14, 1998 at 14:08:27: All underground stations in Singapore have double doors, and the outside ones are of glass, with metal frames. All trains top, tops, 1/2 foot off the center of the doors. All underground stations are also climate controlled, which is a necessity because the outside humidity is always at 500000% because of Singapore's location on the equator. So it's possible and it works well, I might add. I had the opportunity to visit Singapore about 2 years ago. [9]Here's an overview of the system and [10]here are some pictures. --Mark --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: Automated trains
        Message Number: 762103
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:47:55 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Automated trains posted by Rob Stougher on January 14, 1998 at 14:37:00: This particular aspect of automated transit (Double layer of doors) really amounts to a horizontal elevator system. As such, elevator technology long ago developed sensor systems that can insure lining up within 1/4 inch. this kind of accuracy is probably unnecessary for side to side alignment, but it is clearly do-able.
        
        Subject: Re: Automated trains
        Message Number: 762138
        Posted by: Bill Mosteller
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:49:19 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Automated trains posted by Gary Jacobi on January 15, 1998 at 13:53:10: The thing airport systems and elevators have in common is that they're a lot shorter than real rapid transit lines. (Although when walking through Atlanta or climbing the stairs one might get a different impression.) The time spent inching up the platform to hit the door opening perfectly adds up, particularly on a long line. So it's a trade-off.
        
        Subject: Re: Automated trains
        Message Number: 762160
        Posted by: Rob Stougher
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:50:30 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Automated trains posted by Gary Jacobi on January 15, 1998 at 13:53:10: I went to check that site outline above - it can be done, especially if the trains are driven correctly. There are also sound recordings at the LUground site. THey all sound like automated voices. Looks nice and sharp.
        
        Subject: Re: Automated trains
        Message Number: 762169
        Posted by: Nathan
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:50:57 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Automated trains posted by Rob Stougher on January 13, 1998 at 13:39:01: I was in DFW a couple of weeks ago and had to use the TRAAM (after enjoying American Airlines' "Bistro Bag"!). I didn't notice anything spectacular about it, it seemed pretty similar to the STS people mover in Sea-Tac. However: 1)I hate double doors, I want to be able to see the trains (and no double doors is an advantage for suicidal people who do not want to climb tall buildings!) 2)With automation, more exact train-platform lineups can be achieved. I have never ridden BART, but where I live lot's of cash and scandal was poured into the building of a system using driverless trains powered by linear induction motors. Anyway, the point being is that the computer controlling the trains must know the exact location of each train (within 1/4 inch) or there is a shut down. In stations, there is a stripe on the guideway and the front of the train always stops just above that stripe, and the accuracy is maintained even though trains travel at 75mph.

Thread title: Re: Longest Lines Past (762001)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:43:18 1998, by Carl M. Rabbin

Subject: Re: Longest Lines Past
Message Number: 762001
Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:43:18 1998

In Reply to: [7]Re: Longest Lines Past, Present, and Future. posted by John Stewart on January 13, 1998 at 12:01:55: Thank you. When I write my stories, it's almost like being there again. But that's the first sign that one is over 40, they say. I still vote for the E train to Rockaway Park as the longest ever. And yes, it went right from Jamaica through Roosevelt Ave, Queens Plaza (let me just get off for a second to get a Gyro), 8th Ave, Bway-Nassau, express under Fulton Street, right over the water to Rockaway Park, during rush hours only. The A was the local in Brooklyn to Lefferts Blvd. And at least half those express E trains in rush hour only went to Euclid Avenue.
- Subject: Re: Longest Lines Past
- Message Number: 762002
- Posted by: Charles Fiori
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:43:20 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]Re: Longest Lines Past posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 13, 1998 at 13:41:25: And just realize, when the "E" headed out to Lefferts, how close it was to its starting point, or at least to a station like Union Tpke.-Kew Gardens. Prob. not many who rode that line from beginning to end!
  - Subject: Re: Longest Lines Past
  - Message Number: 762017
  - Posted by: Mike B
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:44:01 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Longest Lines Past posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 13, 1998 at 13:41:25: Not only was the E the longest ride, it also had a BIG variety of equipment. Before the E was permanently cut back at WTC, the equipment used varied tremendously. On any given day, I would see the following: R1/9's, R-38's, R-40slant's (exclusive to E and F trains), R-40M's, R-42's, R-44's and R-46's.
    - Subject: Re: Longest Lines Past
    - Message Number: 762037
    - Posted by: Ed Sachs
    - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:45:06 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: Longest Lines Past posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 13, 1998 at 13:41:25: I recall that around 1962 the E train ran rush hours to both Rockaway Park and Far Rockaway (express in Brooklyn, the A train to Lefferts Blvd ran local in Brooklyn). That would make the longest run from 179th St Jamaica - Far Rockaway (a bit further than Rockaway Park).

Thread title: Re: Longest Lines Past: Potential Weird Line (762005)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:43:27 1998, by Carl M. Rabbin

Subject: Re: Longest Lines Past: Potential Weird Line
Message Number: 762005
Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:43:27 1998

In Reply to: [7]Re: Longest Lines Past posted by Charles Fiori on January 13, 1998 at 13:54:00: I know they would never do this but... What if they ran a train from Jamaica Center down Jamaica Avenue over the Williamsburg Bridge, through the non-revenue connection to Bway-Lafayette, up 6th Avenue, across 53 St to Queens Plaza and then to (Ta Da) Jamaica Center? Now that would be a strange one...
- Subject: Re: Longest Lines Past: Potential Weird Line
- Message Number: 762009
- Posted by: Todd Glickman
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:43:41 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Re: Longest Lines Past: Potential Weird Line posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 13, 1998 at 16:05:22: I can see the rollsigns now: JAMAICA CENTER to JAMAICA CENTER via BRIDGE and TUNNEL nice :-)
  - Subject: Re: Longest Lines Past: Potential Weird Line
  - Message Number: 762010
  - Posted by: Charles Fiori
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:43:44 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Longest Lines Past: Potential Weird Line posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 13, 1998 at 16:05:22: Any thoughts as to which would be north and which south? My guess would be that the E-Jamaica Center would be north as you would have to travel north along 6 Avenue to get to the Queens Boulevard line. Also, isn't the E-Jamaica center upstairs? Also, consider this: If the routing encompassed the 6 Av lower level express and the 63rd Street connection to Queens Boulevard, on its way from one Jam Ctr to the other, of the newest construction since the 60s, the only piece missing would be stopping at Grand St. (6 av lwr lvl, 57-6, 63 street, and Archer Ave are the newest pieces) and the connection from 57-7 to 63d St. I smell another fantrip brewing!!!
    - Subject: Re: Longest Lines Past: Potential Weird Line
    - Message Number: 762023
    - Posted by: Peter Rosa
    - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:44:19 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: Longest Lines Past: Potential Weird Line posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 13, 1998 at 16:05:22: >What if they ran a train from Jamaica Center down Jamaica Avenue over the >Williamsburg >Bridge, through the non-revenue connection to Bway-Lafayette, up 6th >Avenue, across 53 St >to Queens Plaza and then to (Ta Da) Jamaica Center? Now that would be a >strange one... It sure would be a strange routing ... but not quite a circle, thanks to the missing E/J connection at Sutphin Avenue.
      - Subject: Re: Longest Lines Past: Potential Weird Line
      - Message Number: 762077
      - Posted by: Mike K
      - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:46:48 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Longest Lines Past: Potential Weird Line posted by Todd Glickman on January 13, 1998 at 16:59:29: Only a broadcaster would think of that one... Mike (himself a broadcaster)
        
        Subject: Re: Longest Lines Past: Potential Weird Line
        Message Number: 762090
        Posted by: Lou from Midletown
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:47:22 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Longest Lines Past: Potential Weird Line posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 13, 1998 at 16:05:22: Or how about Far Rockaway all the way up to 205th St on the Concourse Line- that has to farther than 207th on the A...or Far Rockaway up to W 4th switch to 6th Ave local tracks run local into Queens, then on the Steinway leg and run local using Archer Ave all the way to Jamaica Center?? If you run this local on Fulton, this would have the potential of being a 2 1/2 hour ride!! (Thats one conductor who would definitely need a crib sheet, not to mention a change of clothes!)
        
        Subject: Re: Longest Lines Past: Potential Weird Line
        Message Number: 762096
        Posted by: Timothy Speer
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:47:41 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Longest Lines Past: Potential Weird Line posted by Lou from Midletown on January 15, 1998 at 09:34:46: It's a little bizzarre, but how about from 205th Street, down Grand Concourse, 8th Avenue, 6th Avenue, across the Manhattan Bridge, down 4th Avenue to the Sea Beach line to Coney Island, then back up the Brighton line, through the Montague Street tunnel, up Broadway, then through the 60th Street tunnel, and then local all the way to 179th Street Jamaica? Kind of a redundant, useless extension of the defunct NX. I think this line would cross its own path a couple of times, too!

Thread title: Unpainted MTA Stainless Steel Subway Car Question (762008)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:43:39 1998, by Julio Perez

Subject: Unpainted MTA Stainless Steel Subway Car Question
Message Number: 762008
Posted by: Julio Perez
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:43:39 1998

Are there any documents that are available to the general public, via the Internet or through a library publication, that discusses the amount of monetary savings the MTA has achieved by removing all paint and stick-ons from the exteriors of stainless steel-bodied trains (e.g., R-32, R-38, R-40/40M, etc.)?
- Subject: Re: Unpainted MTA Stainless Steel Subway Car Question
- Message Number: 762253
- Posted by: Joe M
- Date: Mon Jan 26 10:28:26 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]Unpainted MTA Stainless Steel Subway Car Question posted by Julio Perez on January 13, 1998 at 16:55:22: I do not have information about the subway paint but a paint job on an RTS bus (White with the blue stripe and logo's) is about $4,500 They should get complete paint every 5 to 6 years. Some transit systems will run a bus for it's entire life without a repaint though. That might give you a ball park number. Does anyone have better numbers for rail cars??

Thread title: Septa Trolley Routes (762018)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:44:03 1998, by Joker

Subject: Septa Trolley Routes
Message Number: 762018
Posted by: Joker
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:44:03 1998

Can anyone provide an update on whether Philadelphia trolley service will ever be restored on the 23 (Chestnut Hill), 15 (Girard Avenue), and 56 lines? I understand the 56 is supposed to be 'permanently' converted to a bus, but that the wires and tracks are (for now) all still there. The 23 & 15 were among the most interesting trolley routes left in the US, and it will be a real tragedy if they disappear...
- Subject: Re: Septa Trolley Routes
- Message Number: 762035
- Posted by: Will
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:44:57 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]Septa Trolley Routes posted by Joker on January 13, 1998 at 20:56:50: The recently approved SEPTA budget has, I believe, made provision for the preliminary study and design work for the restoration of Route 15. Unfortunately, I am not so sure about any plans for Route 23, however. Route 15 will not simply be a trolley route - it has now been given the official moniker of "Girard Avenue Light Rail" by the powers that be. This is a blatant attempt to make it sexier, I guess. The Route 15 will primarily benefit from the oft-mentioned but seldom-practiced "Transit First" policy of the City of Philadelphia: much of the Route 15 will still run in the center of the street but there will be improved signage at stops, fewer stops to improve speed, more shelters, "bump-outs" at the end of the block at a stop so that patrons may board without standing in the street, strict traffic and parking enforcement along the trolley route, "foul" lines on the street so cars don't block running lanes or turn radii, etc. As far as I know "Transit First" does not really include anything as high-tech as signal pre-emption, which would truly speed up a surface streetcar route! The plan also depends - I think - on the purchase of new low-floor LRV's for the five Subway-Surface Routes (10, 11, 13, 34 and 36) so that surplus Kawasaki cars of early 1980's vintage will operate on the "new" Girard Avenue Light Rail. I have also heard that this plan was "accelerated" by the SEPTA board after Mayor Rendell (of Philly) became a squeaky wheel and bitched that too much capital funds were being spent in the suburban counties and that the promised restoration of some pure streetcar routes was simply taking too darn long. Good for him, I say. But not a good idea to disparage improvements for too many suburbanites - after all, they work in Philly (if they ride SEPTA because - let's face it - most suburb-to-suburb trips are by car) and pay the wage tax as everyone else does. (Rudy take note RE: PATH!) Anyway, that's all I know about these routes. I suggest you check out either DVARP's webpage or the Philadelphia Trolley Coalition's webpage as well. I believe this site has links to them.
  - Subject: Re: Septa Trolley Routes
  - Message Number: 762036
  - Posted by: Dan Lawrence
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:44:59 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]Septa Trolley Routes posted by Joker on January 13, 1998 at 20:56:50: All 3 North Philadelphia streetcar lines are supposed to return early in the 21st century. New articulated LRV's are to be ordered and this will release enough of the 1981 Kawasaki lrv's to re-equip the 3 lines. There is a strong rumor that 15 (Girard Avenue) will return this summer, using lrv's. SEPTA sends a car over the entire 3 lines once a month to inspect the tracks and wires. The Philadelphia transit scene is very fluid and just about anything can and sometimes does happen.
    - Subject: Re: Septa Trolley Routes
    - Message Number: 762074
    - Posted by: Joe M
    - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:46:42 1998
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: Septa Trolley Routes posted by Dan Lawrence on January 14, 1998 at 09:33:20: Any chance they will rehab and reactivate any of the stored PCC's anytime soon?
      - Subject: Re: Septa Trolley Routes
      - Message Number: 762080
      - Posted by: Dan Lawrence
      - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:46:54 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Septa Trolley Routes posted by Joe M on January 14, 1998 at 23:20:09: Probably not. The PCC's are pushing 50+ years old and unless SEPTA is willing to do what SF MUNI did, the only PCC's will be on fantrips and the Welcome line (when it runs). Let's face it. As much as we don't admit it, PCC's are now Historic Equipment. Fact: there are more PCC's in musuems than there are in revenue service today. Trivia question: Who has the only 46 foot, standard Pullman air car in existance?
        
        Subject: Re: Septa Trolley Routes
        Message Number: 762121
        Posted by: Joker
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:48:29 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Septa Trolley Routes posted by Will on January 14, 1998 at 09:32:05: Thanks for the comprehensive update. Early in the 21st century sounds a long way aways though. It amazes me that 'preliminary study & design work' is needed. I guess the next thing will be 'formal study & design work', followed by 'advanced study & design work', etc., none of which actually gets the trolleys back on the streets. If calling the thing a 'light rail line' helps get it restored, so be it. However, since Philly's track record for restoring trolley service on lines 'temporarily' converted to exhaust-spewing buses is so bad (never happened), Philadelphians will need to keep up the pressure.
        
        Subject: Re: Septa Trolley Routes
        Message Number: 762124
        Posted by: Bobw
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:48:36 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Septa Trolley Routes posted by Joker on January 15, 1998 at 20:15:15: As noted in the other postings, Route 15 is supposed to come back as a revitalized light rail line. It will still use Kawasakis as articulated low floor LRV's (roughly 20) are slated for purchase, and these will likely go into service on Route 13. I haven't heard any definitive word on operation of trolleys on 15 this summer. While it might be nice construction often interferes (street, utility, etc). It did last summer. The plan will be expensive since 15 is quite long (close to 11 miles one-way) and requires all new everything. It also has capability for separated right-of-way in many places given the width of Girard Ave. Unfortunately it is not consistently so all the way along the line. 56 also has this capability on Erie Ave and this was built in a couple of places just before the '92 removal of trolleys. 23 does not have this capability, but the historic upper reaches of Germantown Ave may save at least the portion north of Erie Ave. When SEPTA is involved in any of this (as it will be, as the owner and operator of the lines), I would say don't hold your breath. The only reason SEPTA is involved in 15 is political pressure from Mayor Rendell. SEPTA likes to spend big bucks on the commuter rail system and loose change on the City Division, and this relates inversely to the ridership. Don't be surprised if SEPTA finds it "too difficult" or "too costly" to do a top-notch job on 15. It will argue, and rightfully so, that the replacement bus service is just as good and a heck of lot more economical. Those of you familiar with the Phila area will know this as we've seen it many times in the past. Keep your fingers crossed.
        
        Subject: Re: Septa Trolley Routes
        Message Number: 762162
        Posted by: Joe -M
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:50:41 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Septa Trolley Routes posted by Dan Lawrence on January 15, 1998 at 00:27:50: The following 46' Pullman PCC's were built Cinciantti 1000 Boston 3002-3196 and 3222-3271 Baltimore 7023-7428 (Roster and dimension data from "PCC-The Car That Fought Back") I have seen some Boston cars in Storage in PA I do not remenber if the numbers were in this group. I think the museum in Maine was selling some of these cars for parts also. The following is an active roster (this information may be dated) from the Boston Fleet Roster Page on the PCC pages. What happended to the Baltimore cars and the Cincinatti car? "Wartime" PCC, series 3072-3096, 3222-3271 Builder: Pullman Standard (WH) 1945-1946 (rebuilt 1978-1983) Length: 46' Width: 100" Seats: 41 Active Mattapan (11 cars): 3087, 3230, 3232, 3234, 3238, 3254, 3260, 3262, 3263, 3265, 3268 Stored: 3222 (at Arborway) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Green Line: PCC 3241 on Centre Street, Jamaica Plain in 1985. Photo: Scott Moore Click here if your browser will not show an inline JPEG image. "Wartime" PCC, series 3072-3096, 3222-3271 Builder: Pullman Standard (WH) 1945-1946 Length: 46' Width: 100" Seats: 41 Active (0 cars): none Stored at Arborway (2 cars): 3241, 3264
        
        Subject: Re: Septa Trolley Routes
        Message Number: 762164
        Posted by: Joe -M
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:50:47 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Septa Trolley Routes posted by Dan Lawrence on January 15, 1998 at 00:27:50: The following 46' Pullman PCC's were built Cinciantti 1000 Boston 3002-3196 and 3222-3271 Baltimore 7023-7428 (Roster and dimension data from "PCC-The Car That Fought Back") I have seen some Boston cars in Storage in PA I do not remenber if the numbers were in this group. I think the museum in Maine was selling some of these cars for parts also. The following is an active roster (this information may be dated) from the Boston Fleet Roster Page on the PCC pages. What happended to the Baltimore cars and the Cincinatti car? "Wartime" PCC, series 3072-3096, 3222-3271 Builder: Pullman Standard (WH) 1945-1946 (rebuilt 1978-1983) Length: 46' Width: 100" Seats: 41 Active Mattapan (11 cars): 3087, 3230, 3232, 3234, 3238, 3254, 3260, 3262, 3263, 3265, 3268 Stored: 3222 (at Arborway) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Green Line: PCC 3241 on Centre Street, Jamaica Plain in 1985. Photo: Scott Moore Click here if your browser will not show an inline JPEG image. "Wartime" PCC, series 3072-3096, 3222-3271 Builder: Pullman Standard (WH) 1945-1946 Length: 46' Width: 100" Seats: 41 Active (0 cars): none Stored at Arborway (2 cars): 3241, 3264
        
        Subject: Re: Septa Trolley Routes
        Message Number: 762167
        Posted by: Dan Lawrence
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:50:54 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Septa Trolley Routes posted by Joe -M on January 16, 1998 at 21:06:13: Other than the Baltimore and the Cincinatti demonstrator, no other 46' standard air cars were built by Pullman. Baltimore bought 245 Pullmans (1939 - 1944) and the Cincinatti car makes 246. Only BTCo 7407 (Pullman 1944) survives, all others were scrapped between 1955 and 1964. Because of the left-hand doors and the different right side door placement, the Boston Pullmans cannot be considered "standard". The MG set and control components are also placed differently from standard PCC cars. One PCC oddity is that the 1942 St. Louis cars for Los Angeles piloted the right side door arrangement for TRC.
        
        Subject: Re: Septa Trolley Routes
        Message Number: 762201
        Posted by: Joe M
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:52:22 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Septa Trolley Routes posted by Dan Lawrence on January 17, 1998 at 00:24:31: Gerry O'Regan is right the standard cars were not so standard but thats what keeps them interesting. I looked at Daves pictures of 7407 on the Baltimore PCC page. Does anyone know what happended to the Cincinatti car??
        
        Subject: Re: Septa Trolley Routes
        Message Number: 762205
        Posted by: Dan Lawrence
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:52:36 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Septa Trolley Routes posted by Joe M on January 17, 1998 at 23:32:06: I suspect that the Cincinatti Pullman went to scrap along with the last Witts in the Queen City. TTC bought all the St. Louis built cars, but did not take the Pullman.

Thread title: 1938-41 Subway Pictures (762020)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:44:12 1998, by Joe-M

Subject: 1938-41 Subway Pictures
Message Number: 762020
Posted by: Joe-M
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:44:12 1998

I found some interesting subway pictures from 1938 to 1941 in a photography book The title is "Walker Evans: First and last" 1978 Harper Row Publishers Pages 134-139. They are interior shots on wood cars. Portraits of the riders but the interior details are great. Wood windows, route maps behind the riders and the stations through the windows. There are other NYC shots and pictures form around the country of streetscapes with trolley track and overheads in place (No Streetcars visable though. It's worth a trip to the library to have a look Pg 153 is noted as the Container Corporation Site. No city is listed but it looks like the train tunnel under the St. Louis Arch Park. Does any one else recognize the location? Joe

Thread title: New Haven Electric Questions!!!!!!! (762031)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:44:41 1998, by Philip Nasadowski

Subject: New Haven Electric Questions!!!!!!!
Message Number: 762031
Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:44:41 1998

Ok..here's 2 quickies (maybe not): Comming into New Haven on the Hartford/Springfield line, I noticed that conrail, or Slamtrak has a yard there, a bit past the Metro North ones. This is before we come "under the wire", but I'm noticeing that there are what look to be concrete bases of (removed) catenary trusses. Sure enough, a bit before the Boston line meets up with us, I notice there is one truss that's still up (but no wires). And on it is one of those old "Dangerous Live Wires 11,000 volts" on it. Now I know TODAY that the wires end at New Haven, but did they ever extend beyond there, and how far up this line did they go?? Also, what is that abandoned extension right after Bridgeport. You know, the one that still has the viaduct and support poles on it. Yeah, that one. Where'd it go, and what's it's status. Oh yeah, if anyone cares, I found the schematic (and drum/notch diagrams) for New Haven's old old electric locomotives. 22 DC notches, 15 AC ones. I've also got a (simplified??) one for the AC MP-54's
- Subject: Re: New Haven Electric Questions!!!!!!!
- Message Number: 762064
- Posted by: Mellow One
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:46:10 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]New Haven Electric Questions!!!!!!! posted by Philip Nasadowski on January 14, 1998 at 01:02:24: No, New Haven was and is the end of the AC electric overhead. However, there were other early DC electifications in Connecticut, but well away from New Haven all of which were de-electrified in the 30's. Middleton's book, When The Steam Railroads Electirfied identifies those lines. The NYNH&H also controlled the Connecticut Co. wich supplied the electricity and most of the local and interurban transit in the state. There are several publications dealing with the Connecticut Co and Connecticut Traction History. However, a paper on the NYNH&H DC electrifications would be welcome if the papers, articles or regional publications have not already covered the subject. I would like to see some myself. I used to travel into Hartford and around Hazardville and crossed several ROWs that were part of that history. I would endeavor to do it myself, except I am well away from the area now. The Waterbury branch was electrified (AC) at one time. I do not know the exact date of the de-electrification, in the 70's.
  - Subject: Re: New Haven Electric Questions!!!!!!!
  - Message Number: 762065
  - Posted by: faxman
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:46:13 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: New Haven Electric Questions!!!!!!! posted by Mellow One on January 14, 1998 at 20:40:17: i think you are seeing the old cedar hill frieght yard. they ran electics in the bronx and queens via hell gates
    - Subject: Re: New Haven Electric Questions!!!!!!!
    - Message Number: 762073
    - Posted by: Peter Rosa
    - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:46:40 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: New Haven Electric Questions!!!!!!! posted by Mellow One on January 14, 1998 at 20:40:17: Metro-North's Waterbury branch has never been electrified. You're probably thinking of the Danbury line, which I believe had been electrified until relatively recently.
      - Subject: Re: New Haven Electric Questions!!!!!!!
      - Message Number: 762075
      - Posted by: Peter Rosa
      - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:46:44 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]New Haven Electric Questions!!!!!!! posted by Philip Nasadowski on January 14, 1998 at 01:02:24: That abandoned extension just past the Bridgeport station originally ran up towards Danbury, connecting at some point with the (still extant) freight line that ran from the Poughkeepsie Bridge to a junction with the Waterbury branch in Derby. I don't know just when the line from Bridgeport was abandoned, but it clearly was quite some time ago. The lower part of it, for just a short distance off the New Haven main line, was used as an industrial freight spur for some time thereafter, though even that's been abandoned for 10 years or more.
        
        Subject: Re: New Haven Electric Questions!!!!!!!
        Message Number: 762085
        Posted by: Dave
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:47:08 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: New Haven Electric Questions!!!!!!! posted by Peter Rosa on January 14, 1998 at 23:18:03: The Danbury branch was electrified until early 1961 when the wire was de-energized. The wire came down in 1965. There was a branch that ran from just west of Bridgeport to Danbury? Are you sure? There was a branch east of Danbury that ran from Devon up to Derby, then west to Maybrook. The Maybrook lines was the NH's main freight branch, connecting with the Erie, L&NE, L&HR, NYC and the NYO&W. For an excellent book on the history of the Danbury branch, check out "In the Shore Line's Shadow" by L. Peter Cornwall.
        
        Subject: Re: New Haven Electric Questions!!!!!!!
        Message Number: 762088
        Posted by: Peter Rosa
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:47:16 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: New Haven Electric Questions!!!!!!! posted by Dave on January 15, 1998 at 07:48:46: I am not certain if the branch line in question (from Bridgeport) actually joined with the Maybrook line; it might have dead-ended north of Bridgeport. But it was more than just an industrial spur, and ran for some distance north of Bridgeport.
        
        Subject: Re: New Haven Electric Questions!!!!!!!
        Message Number: 762238
        Posted by: Dave
        Date: Mon Jan 26 10:27:41 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: New Haven Electric Questions!!!!!!! posted by Peter Rosa on January 15, 1998 at 09:18:32: I couldn't find the branch extending Noth from Bridgeport Peter Rosa referred to on any of my NH maps. Does anyone have a copy they could Xerox or scan and e-mail or send to me?

Thread title: Transit Employees (762038)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:45:08 1998, by Gary

Subject: Transit Employees
Message Number: 762038
Posted by: Gary
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:45:08 1998

Any and all Transit employees, I suppose all cities would be wecome!!, that would like to participate in a shared forum or bullitin board of ideas,stories,venting,observation,and the like, please e.mail me direct to be included as this site takes shape. I hope you will participate. Be patient, these things take time : ) Gary

Thread title: MetroCard ? from a non-techy (762039)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:45:10 1998, by Lou from Middletown

Subject: MetroCard ? from a non-techy
Message Number: 762039
Posted by: Lou from Middletown
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:45:10 1998

Just out of curiosity, how are they going to program the Monthly,etc MetroCards, so that multiple passengers can't use them at once?? For example, someone buys a Daily Pass (they gotta think of a good name for these!) for $4, whats going to stop them using for 2 or three people, but let whomever still use it in an "unlimited" way??? Just curious!!
- Subject: Re: MetroCard ? from a non-techy
- Message Number: 762046
- Posted by: Lou from Brooklyn
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:45:24 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]MetroCard ? from a non-techy posted by Lou from Middletown on January 14, 1998 at 09:43:59: The same way an employee pass can not be used to more than once at the same station NOW. Employee cards can't be swiped a second time now within a certain time period (8 minutes??). A lot of the construction crews and regular TA people at Queens Plaza are buzzed through the special gate becuse of this (I see it every day.
  - Subject: Re: MetroCard ? from a non-techy
  - Message Number: 762076
  - Posted by: Joe M
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:46:46 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]MetroCard ? from a non-techy posted by Lou from Middletown on January 14, 1998 at 09:43:59: "Day Tripper" may be a good name for them.

Thread title: Re: 6th Avenue Service ... (going back further) (762044)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:45:20 1998, by Ed Sachs

Subject: Re: 6th Avenue Service ... (going back further)
Message Number: 762044
Posted by: Ed Sachs
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:45:20 1998

In Reply to: [8]Re: 6th Avenue Service before Chrystie Street Opened posted by david vartanoff on January 12, 1998 at 23:58:13: The 6th Ave. line service remained pretty much the same from 1954 to 1967. Prior to 1954 (opening of Culver line connection) from about 1950: D: 205 St - Hudson Terminal (now World Trade Center), 24 hour service. Express N. of 145 St, peak direction, rush hour only. Express 59 - 145 St all times. Local W 4 St. - Hudson Terminal all times. F: 179 St - Church Ave. (via Houston St.), 24 hour service. Express Forest Hills - Queens Plaza (all times) Express east of Forest Hills in rush hours? (E provided local service) BB: 168 St (Broadway) - 23 St/6 Ave. - Local, rush hours only. Other IND lines of the period (ca. 1950 - 1954): A: 207 St - Euclid. Ave., 24 hour service Express in Manhattan all times. Express in Brooklyn (to Broadway-East New York) in rush hours. CC: Bedford Park - Broadway-Lafayette or 2nd Ave/Houston, rush hours. E: 179 St - Broadway-Lafayette or 2nd Ave/Houston, non-rush hours. Express Forest Hills - Queens Plaza, local in Manhattan. 179 St - Broadway-East New York, rush hours. Express Forest Hills - Queens Plaza, 42nd St. to Chambers, local in Brooklyn. GG: Forest Hills - Smith/9th Sts., 24 hour service.
- Subject: Re: 6th Avenue Service ... (going back further)
- Message Number: 762048
- Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:45:28 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]Re: 6th Avenue Service ... (going back further) Corrected posted by Ed Sachs on January 14, 1998 at 10:19:07: We should explain that when the E went to Bway-Lafayette it went along 8th Avenue then switch south of W. 4 St to the Houston St tracks. When the D went to Chambers St. - Hudson Terminal, it went on the 6th Avenue tracks and switched to the lower Manhattan tracks south of W. 4 St. You can see how it was easily done. If you are on an 8th Uptown local you can see F trains running right next to you in the tunnel before it dips downstairs at W. 4th street. However, though it was part of the IND "every branch is connected directly to every other branch" plan in the 1930s, people must have complained that it's really a pain in the neck to have that during less than peak hours. It's faster to have a trunk route be as long as possible so people can take any train available for a longer distance.

Thread title: Re: 6th Avenue Service ... (going back further) Corrected (762045)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:45:22 1998, by Ed Sachs

Subject: Re: 6th Avenue Service ... (going back further) Corrected
Message Number: 762045
Posted by: Ed Sachs
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:45:22 1998

In Reply to: [8]Re: 6th Avenue Service before Chrystie Street Opened posted by david vartanoff on January 12, 1998 at 23:58:13: Sorry, forgot the AA train last time... Ed The 6th Ave. line service remained pretty much the same from 1954 to 1967. Prior to 1954 (opening of Culver line connection) from about 1950: D: 205 St - Hudson Terminal (now World Trade Center), 24 hour service. Express N. of 145 St, peak direction, rush hour only. Express 59 - 145 St all times. Local W 4 St. - Hudson Terminal all times. F: 179 St - Church Ave. (via Houston St.), 24 hour service. Express Forest Hills - Queens Plaza (all times) Express east of Forest Hills in rush hours? (E provided local service) BB: 168 St (Broadway) - 23 St/6 Ave. - Local, rush hours only. Other IND lines of the period (ca. 1950 - 1954): A: 207 St - Euclid. Ave., 24 hour service Express in Manhattan all times. Express in Brooklyn (to Broadway-East New York) in rush hours. AA: 168 St - Hudson Terminal, non-rush hours only CC: Bedford Park - Broadway-Lafayette or 2nd Ave/Houston, rush hours. E: 179 St - Broadway-Lafayette or 2nd Ave/Houston, non-rush hours. Express Forest Hills - Queens Plaza, local in Manhattan. 179 St - Broadway-East New York, rush hours. Express Forest Hills - Queens Plaza, 42nd St. to Chambers, local in Brooklyn. GG: Forest Hills - Smith/9th Sts., 24 hour service.

Thread title: Re: DC Area's Metro-rail (Muzak Division) (762049)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:45:30 1998, by Carl M. Rabbin

Subject: Re: DC Area's Metro-rail (Muzak Division)
Message Number: 762049
Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:45:30 1998

In Reply to: [7]Re: DC Area's Metro-rail posted by Mark Greenwald on January 14, 1998 at 10:01:35: They are pumping in Muzak(TM) at the Franconia-Springfield station of the Blue Line and plan to put it in at Glenmont (Red) when it opens in July. I haven't been there since they put in the music so I don't know if it's pleasant or "enough to make one crazy already".

Thread title: South Ferry inner loop (762051)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:45:34 1998, by aaron

Subject: South Ferry inner loop
Message Number: 762051
Posted by: aaron
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:45:34 1998

Coming Manhattan bound on the 4 this a.m., I noticed the inner loop blocked for track work. How are 5 trains that terminate at Bowling Green turned around?
- Subject: Re: South Ferry inner loop
- Message Number: 762052
- Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:45:36 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]South Ferry inner loop posted by aaron on January 14, 1998 at 12:44:02: If you were there during rush hour, maybe it was leftover overnight work that was going to be taken up by 9:30 AM.
  - Subject: Re: South Ferry inner loop
  - Message Number: 762063
  - Posted by: Mike B
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:46:08 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]South Ferry inner loop posted by aaron on January 14, 1998 at 12:44:02: I think I read that #5 trains were being extended to Atlantic Avenue and turning there while the construction was going on.

Thread title: Re: DC Area's Metro-rail - Metro Stores (762054)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:45:44 1998, by Bill Mosteller

Subject: Re: DC Area's Metro-rail - Metro Stores
Message Number: 762054
Posted by: Bill Mosteller
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:45:44 1998

In Reply to: [8]Re: DC Area's Metro-rail posted by Chris Matheson on January 12, 1998 at 18:07:27: At one point, Metro had a retail outlet at Ballston Mall. Additionally, at Metro Center, they have an outlet where they sell both fare cards and souvenirs.

Thread title: Why Automated Train Operation (762055)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:45:46 1998, by Bill Mosteller

Subject: Why Automated Train Operation
Message Number: 762055
Posted by: Bill Mosteller
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:45:46 1998

In Reply to: [8]DC Area's Metro-rail posted by Chris Matheson on January 12, 1998 at 16:05:32: For some while, I had thought that automated train operation for subway cars was technology for technology's sake. J. William Vigrass' excellent book on PATCO persuaded me otherwise. During rush hours, a system would like to get the maximum out of their equipment. That means that trains should leave a station at the maximum safe acceleration, proceed at top speed to the next station, braking to a stop at the last possible safe moment. Some operators can do this, others buy a little insurance by lagging a bit; starting more slowly, decelerating sooner than the minimum. The machine always performs optimally. The effect is to create a whole extra train on PATCO, simply by making all trains drive as if an excellent operator were in control.

Thread title: Metro-card & E-Z Pass (762057)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:45:53 1998, by Avi

Subject: Metro-card & E-Z Pass
Message Number: 762057
Posted by: Avi
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:45:53 1998

You know what would be a marriage in heaven: Metrocard and E-Z pass share the same account. For those of you who don't know, E-Z Pass is an electronic toll collection system developed by the New York State Thruway Authority for regualr system fares and bridge tolls. It can be used at MTA bridges and tunnels as well. Soon, (but not soon enough) it is planned to be extended to the PA, NJ, and MA Turnpikes, as well as PATCO and the AC Expressway, Philadelphia Bridges etc. It promises to make all forms of vehicular transportation (when necessary) easier. It would be easier to install Metro Card on the Thruway -(Swipe Unit in a designated lane) but harder for E-Z Pass in the Subway system, but it would be neat.
- Subject: Re: Metro-card & E-Z Pass
- Message Number: 762081
- Posted by: Droo
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:46:56 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]Metro-card & E-Z Pass posted by Avi on January 14, 1998 at 14:46:11: From the rumor mill when E-ZPass was first being installed by the TBTA (or MTA Bridges & Tunnels, or whatever it is now)they were saying that someday in the future, they would have it so you won't have to stop or slow down the vehicle when using E-ZPass... if this is the plan (probably for the not-so-near future) then having a Metrocard-type swipe system would be useless. Maybe instead of the debit-card Metrocard, and credit-card-type Metrocard could be used? I suppose the security issues would be enormous, though.
  - Subject: Re: Metro-card & E-Z Pass
  - Message Number: 762094
  - Posted by: John Stewart
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:47:37 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: Metro-card & E-Z Pass posted by Droo on January 15, 1998 at 00:33:48: Yes, I understand that the technology you describe was being considered. I believe it would work only with a credit card. It's already in use at some gas stations (Mobil, for instance). This version reads a bar code mounted on your car window. I'm not sure if it reads a code that directly specifies your credit card or if it reads a code that is encrypted in some sort of data base that records which card you previously specified to the company that you want them to use whenever you are charged. However, I do believe that the car has to be moving under "x" number of mph in order to activate the reading of the bar code. I've wondered what happens if you drive up to one island in the station and find that the pump is empty (after your bar code on your window has been read) and then drive to a second pump. I'm sure you'd get charged twice and have to fight Mastercharge for two years before the situation was straightened out!
    - Subject: Re: Metro-card & E-Z Pass
    - Message Number: 762095
    - Posted by: John B. Bredin
    - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:47:39 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: Metro-card & E-Z Pass posted by John Stewart on January 15, 1998 at 10:37:32: The "Mobilpass" is not attached to the automobile. It is a small wand about the size of a pen that you attach to your keychain. To activate the pump, you wave the wand over a sensor, which in stations equipped for Mobilpass is the Pegasus logo. As to being charged for waving at two pumps, if you didn't buy gas at the first one, because the pump is empty, what would you be charged for? (Now, if you activate the pump, go away to another pump, the pump is not empty, and someone quickly comes and uses the pump, that **might** be a different story.)
      - Subject: Re: Metro-card & E-Z Pass
      - Message Number: 762097
      - Posted by: Timothy Speer
      - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:47:43 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Metro-card & E-Z Pass posted by John B. Bredin on January 15, 1998 at 11:12:25: Is the Mobil wand a radio re-transmitter?
        
        Subject: Re: Metro-card & E-Z Pass
        Message Number: 762098
        Posted by: Avi
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:47:45 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Metro-card & E-Z Pass posted by Timothy Speer on January 15, 1998 at 11:16:43: Speedpass is Mobils version of E-Z Pass. It comes in two flavors: --keychain for portable reasons --rear window mount. The system is proximity activated - there are no barcodes on the product visible. (At least on mine) E-Z Pass, which I also have, can be read by the transmitter at any speed. Any lane can actually except the transaction, as long it is equipped. The technology already exists, for example, my son gets into his dorm using a credit/debit size card with a circuit wafer embedded into it. This is what got me thinking on the prospect of codesharing between E-Z Pass and MetroCard. I am from upstate, and when I have a Metrocard just for the ease of a token-less trip the two or three times a quarter I am there.
        
        Subject: Re: Metro-card & E-Z Pass
        Message Number: 762101
        Posted by: John Stewart
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:47:51 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Metro-card & E-Z Pass posted by John B. Bredin on January 15, 1998 at 11:12:25: I did not realize that there was also a version that resembled a "small wand," designed to be attached to a keychain. The version that I have read about in the papers is designed to be mounted on the car window. And thank you for pointing out the error of my overzealous assumption about being charged twice.
        
        Subject: Re: Metro-card & E-Z Pass
        Message Number: 762112
        Posted by: Joshua Caesar
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:48:12 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Metro-card & E-Z Pass posted by Avi on January 15, 1998 at 12:55:31: --keychain for portable reasons --rear window mount.>> Does the key-tag speedpass use the same technology as the rear window mounted Speedpass and the EZpass? While the Speedpass may use the same technology as EZpass, it is definatley not as useful. Speedpass bills to your credit card, and with pay at the pump, it doesn't cut much time off the transaction (you still need to stand there and pump your gas). EZpass however cuts out the whole transaction, eliminating the need to even open the window and toss out a token. Josh
        
        Subject: Re: Metro-card & E-Z Pass
        Message Number: 762113
        Posted by: Avi
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:48:14 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Metro-card & E-Z Pass posted by Joshua Caesar on January 15, 1998 at 17:19:34: There is a place on the pump, usually right of the LCD displays that show Price of Gas pumped, gallons pumped, fixed price for gas. I agree with you that E-Z Pass is a worthwhile system, where SpeedPass is a toy. I have it because the company I work for gave them to us for mileage on our cars. And I put a lot of miles on my car too, (district sales mangager is a pain) why I like NY for the Subway. My thought was that E-Z Pass should have an additional key-ring device that could be read in existing swipers. The hard part would be coordinating the E-Z Pass and MetroCard Debit accounts. The more I think about it, it may not work well from a management standpoint, for my E-Z Pass is a result of the aforementioned milage problem.

Thread title: I'm looking for a copy of the 1997/98 NYCT bus electronic desination (762070)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:46:33 1998, by .

Subject: I'm looking for a copy of the 1997/98 NYCT bus electronic desination
Message Number: 762070
Posted by: .
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:46:33 1998

Thread title: Layup Tracks (762086)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:47:10 1998, by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto

Subject: Layup Tracks
Message Number: 762086
Posted by: Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:47:10 1998

In Reply to: [8]Re: New York City Subway Line By Line: The Sea Beach Line posted by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto on January 15, 1998 at 03:53:52: I'd like to put together a list of layup tracks - past and present. The operant definition being tracks that are/have been used for laying up trains between runs or overnight. Please be as exact as possible. I'll start: Brighton Line - after station towards Coney, I believe. Additional info? Fulton El - Yard lead east of Rockaway Ave station (north-most westbound track)
- Subject: Re: Layup Tracks
- Message Number: 762106
- Posted by: Mark S Feinman
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:48:01 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Layup Tracks posted by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto on January 15, 1998 at 07:50:34: Getting some of the dust of my (cough cough) long range memory ... The Brighton Line: The northbound (Manhattan-bound) express tracks were used to lay up trains on weekends and sometimes during midday hours between Oceanview Ave (just north of the current interlockings on the Brighton El after leaving Brighton Beach) to Sheepshead Bay, and then from Avenue Y to Ave R. (This is no longer bring done). I remember, as a kid, being disappointed when D trains, claiming to be an express from Brighton Beach, ran local to Kings Highway before switching to the express tracks. Occasionally, a train would layup in Brighton Beach, using one of the two station tracks, and trains would always have to wait for the single open track to clear. (This is also not being done anymore.) Also, there's an "El Yard" between Ocean Parkway & Brighton Beach, where trains are stored. They're even stored on the through-express tracks. The West End Line: The center track was always full of laid-up trains starting from Bay 50th and running the length of the line to 9th Avenue. I don't think this is being done anymore. --Mark I don't recall any trains lad up on Culver or Sea Beach.
  - Subject: Re: Layup Tracks
  - Message Number: 762133
  - Posted by: david vartanoff
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:49:03 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Layup Tracks posted by Mark S Feinman on January 15, 1998 at 14:01:50: in the late sixties when thr weather got very cold they used to annull B'way Manhattan exp service on the BMT and fill the tracks from Canal north with trains from the end of evening rush til morning. Its warm down there.
    - Subject: Re: Layup Tracks
    - Message Number: 762139
    - Posted by: Bill from S. I.
    - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:49:21 1998
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: Layup Tracks posted by david vartanoff on January 16, 1998 at 02:41:12: They use the 4th ave. southbound express tracks between 36th St. and 59th St. to lay up "R" trains for the morning rushour. Also the northbound tracks between 95th St. and 86th St. are used for layups. If its really cold out or a snowstorm they will use the express tracks between Pacific St. and 36th. St to layup trains so they would not get snowbound in the yard.
      - Subject: Re: Layup Tracks
      - Message Number: 762158
      - Posted by: Steve B
      - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:50:22 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Layup Tracks posted by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto on January 15, 1998 at 07:50:34: This is a first time post from me. I can remember when the Brooklyn-bound track on the Canarsie line was used for layups between 8th Ave. and Union Square on weekends during the winter months in the late 60s. L trains (LL back then, although the BMT standards had no markings) bound for Brooklyn would wrong-rail on the 8th Ave-bound track past Union Square, then switch over to the Brooklyn-bound track just before 3rd Avenue. An 8th Ave. bound train would be held up at 3rd Ave. until the Brooklyn-bound train had switched over. Apparently, only one train was allowed beyond 3rd Ave. at any time. Incidentally, they were still doing this when the R-42s first appeared. The conductor would announce "This is an LL train to Brooklyn" when stopped at 6th Ave. or Union Square while wrong-railing. I also remember what Bill from S. I. alluded to; i. e., the express tracks on the BMT Broadway (N & R) line being used for layups on weekends during the winter months in the late 60s. It was very disheartening for an express addict like myself to see an uptown N train pull into Union Square on the local track (the N ran express at all times in Manhattan in those days) and make all local stops before terminating at 57th St. Sometimes the N would switch over to express between 34th St. and Times Square, instead of just before 57th St., if the express track was clear from that point on. I can also remember when only the uptown express track would be used for layups. Guess which direction I was heading in...aarrrrghhh! The express track on the Concourse line was occasionally used for layups during weekends back then also. I remember seeing this once. I believe they still use the express tracks on the IND Queens line for layups beyond Continental Ave. during evenings and weekends. You could probably classify them as storage tracks beyond the Archer Ave. connector, now that the F runs local all by itself to 179th St. We'll see what happens when the 63rd St. connector opens. The express track on the Flushing line between Willets Point and Main St. is or has been used for layups during Met games at Shea Stadium. (I can vouch for this, having seen the Mets at Shea; 1969 and 1986 were good years.) I wonder if they do the same thing on the 4 line during Yankee games. The center track on the Astoria line has been used for layups in the past, as well as the short center track on the Jamaica line between 121st and 111th Sts. I remember seeing a train of BMT standards parked on the latter once in early 1968 while riding a JJ train from Elderts Lane to 168th St and back.
        
        Subject: Re: Layup Tracks
        Message Number: 762159
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:50:26 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Layup Tracks posted by david vartanoff on January 16, 1998 at 02:41:12: Not much as changed. WHen the TA expects severe cold (I guess 15 degrees or less), they move the trains out of CI Yard and lay them up in tunnels in the system, especially if the cold is expected over a weekend. --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: Layup Tracks
        Message Number: 762173
        Posted by: Bill from S.I.
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:51:08 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Layup Tracks posted by Mark S Feinman on January 16, 1998 at 17:21:35: I think they have a problem with the air brakes, if they leave the trains in the yard, moisture in the air lines might freeze; besides the seats being cold as heck!
        
        Subject: Re: Layup Tracks
        Message Number: 762179
        Posted by: Mike B
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:51:22 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Layup Tracks posted by Steve B on January 16, 1998 at 17:18:22: I remember the trains that used to lay-up on the #7 during Met games. These trains were nicknamed the "baseball specials" and made express stops between Willets-Point and Times Square after Met games ended. (These were the 1st trains I had ever seen on the #7 that had the desigantion SPECIAL on the bottom side destination sign. Usually they had "LOCAL" or , depending on which direction was peak hour). Usually there were a few specials waiting on the Bridge between Willets Point and Main Street. I don't believe these baseball specials were advertised much. After a game, the Manhattan bound local platform was jam-packed. While the Manhattan bound express/special track was not that bad. In addition, you'd always get a seat on the express baseball special while the local trains barely had breathing room. These "specials" did not run during the week (day games) as the express track was used for peak-hour express service to Main Street. However, they did run after weekend day games.
        
        Subject: Re: Layup Tracks
        Message Number: 762181
        Posted by: Mike B
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:51:28 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Layup Tracks posted by Bill from S. I. on January 16, 1998 at 08:57:27: They also used to lay-up trains on the Southbound express tracks between 36th Street and 59th Street on the 4th Avenue line on Weekends. On Saturday's. the southbound B and N would run it's normal express from Pacific Street to 36th Street. From there, the B would switch to the West-End and the N would switch to the local tracks and make local stops (along with the RR) to 59th Street. From there, the N would switch to the Sea Beach. This only affected the Downtown side, uptown N trains ran express between 59th Street and Pacific Street. On Sundays, all trains were scheduled to run local anyway, so the lay-up had no effect. Saturday trains were definitely affected.
        
        Subject: Re: Layup Tracks
        Message Number: 762229
        Posted by: Steve B
        Date: Mon Jan 26 10:27:17 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Layup Tracks posted by Mike B on January 17, 1998 at 12:42:16: Now that you mention it... I remember taking a "baseball special" back to Manhattan the first time I saw the Mets at Shea on 8/1/70. These "baseball specials" must have been discontinued after that season. I went to Shea once a year for the next few years, always on Saturday, and never saw another 'baseball special", even though I left right after the game each time. Were they in fact discontinued? And speaking of layups: the center tracks at Dyckman St. on the A line are still used to layup trains, although I believe these are access tracks to the 207th St yard.
        
        Subject: Re: Layup Tracks
        Message Number: 762251
        Posted by: Mike B
        Date: Mon Jan 26 10:28:22 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Layup Tracks posted by Steve B on January 19, 1998 at 09:07:59: It's been a long time, but I think the last Baseball special I rode was in 1972.
        
        Subject: Re: Layup Tracks
        Message Number: 762262
        Posted by: Charles Fiori
        Date: Mon Jan 26 10:28:45 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Layup Tracks posted by Steve B on January 19, 1998 at 09:07:59: I can remember when I worked for the TA in the early 80s, I had a copy of the special schedule set up to accomodate Jets fans. I can always remember going to Mets games, or watching on TV, the line of trains parked on the "M" track between Willets Point and Main St. That was well after the early 70s.

Thread title: Re: The "Line by Line" Posts:Flushing (762089)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:47:18 1998, by Lou from Middletown

Subject: Re: The "Line by Line" Posts:Flushing
Message Number: 762089
Posted by: Lou from Middletown
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:47:18 1998

In Reply to: [7]Re: The "Line by Line" Posts posted by Charles Fiori on January 13, 1998 at 12:00:00: One thing that needs to be cleared up about the Flushing Line is: Exactly when did Express service start?? Some references state express service started when the line first opened, while others make a big deal about "the express service starting in conjunction withe 1939 World's Fair? Just being picky before anyone starts anything!!
- Subject: Re: The "Line by Line" Posts:Flushing
- Message Number: 762206
- Posted by: Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:52:39 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Re: The "Line by Line" Posts:Flushing posted by Lou from Middletown on January 15, 1998 at 09:25:49: According to Bernard Linder in an ERA article on BMT service history the Flus exp service started in 1939. I have much info attesting to the round robin Ast-Flus BMT services that was the mainstay until then. Does anyone know if the exp service changed the service - whether it continued in a loop fashion? (The reason for the loop had to do with the track layout at QP). I'll EMail some early QP track maps to whoever is doing the writeup of this line...
  - Subject: Re: The "Line by Line" Posts:Flushing
  - Message Number: 762263
  - Posted by: Charles Fiori
  - Date: Mon Jan 26 10:28:46 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: The "Line by Line" Posts:Flushing posted by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto on January 18, 1998 at 04:12:08: I will take any info you can provide, Ben-Zion. I may get started this week as I have a few days off...
    - Subject: Re: The "Line by Line" Posts:Flushing
    - Message Number: 762293
    - Posted by: Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto
    - Date: Mon Jan 26 10:30:33 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: The "Line by Line" Posts:Flushing posted by Charles Fiori on January 20, 1998 at 08:35:46: I EMailed you old QP track maps, which I must thank Steve (he of "D") for. A study of the maps will reveal why the BMT ran a loop (alternating) service to Astoria and Flushing. I found out doing a Bahn layout that without switchbacks in the thick of the busy station-area tracks, it would be impossible to do separate services.

Thread title: Re: 6th Avenue Service - an apology (762091)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:47:25 1998, by Dan Schwartz

Subject: Re: 6th Avenue Service - an apology
Message Number: 762091
Posted by: Dan Schwartz
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:47:25 1998

In Reply to: [8]Re: 6th Avenue Service before Chrystie Street Opened posted by david vartanoff on January 13, 1998 at 18:06:58: After a bout of head-scratching and memory-jogging, I have come to the conclusion that you are right -- the F DID terminate at 34th St.-6th Av. on weekends. It is funny how memories can get distorted. I remembered that the F usually terminatd at B'way-Lafayette, and I remembered being there the last night before Chrystie St. opened, and somehow I combined the two in my mind, to the point where I was SURE of something that, in fact, just wasn't so.

Thread title: NY SUbway Line by Line- 4 Train (762099)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:47:47 1998, by subway-buff

Subject: NY SUbway Line by Line- 4 Train
Message Number: 762099
Posted by: subway-buff
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:47:47 1998

I have the privilege of doing the section on the 4 Woodlawn to Utica Train. If anyone has any interesting trivia, photos, news items, etc. please e-mauil to me at[8] subway-buff@mindspring.com/a>. Thanks for your help !!
- Subject: Re: NY SUbway Line by Line- 4 Train
- Message Number: 762108
- Posted by: Lefty
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:48:04 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]NY SUbway Line by Line- 4 Train posted by subway-buff on January 15, 1998 at 12:57:28: you might wanna do something about the 4 yard under the racey towers in the bronx.. just north of the D train's Jerome yard.. its under 2 huge buildings. are there any other yards like this in the city?
  - Subject: Re: NY SUbway Line by Line- 4 Train
  - Message Number: 762109
  - Posted by: Charles Fiori
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:48:06 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: NY SUbway Line by Line- 4 Train posted by Lefty on January 15, 1998 at 16:08:46: Pitkin Yard is underneath high-rises on the Bklyn/Queens line. 148th Street Yard is under high-rises at 148th-Lenox. I think that is it. One aside--240th St. Yard (my alma mater) is actually itself elevated. Rather than ramping down from the road tracks into the yard, the shop and storage tracks are at the same level as the elevated.
    - Subject: Re: NY SUbway Line by Line- 4 Train
    - Message Number: 762111
    - Posted by: sean
    - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:48:10 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]NY SUbway Line by Line- 4 Train posted by subway-buff on January 15, 1998 at 12:57:28: You might want to mention that north of the 161st-yankee stadium station there is a remnant of the old connection to the 'putnam shuttle' which brought trains across the Harlem River to the 9th avenue 'el' station adjacent to the Polo Grounds.
      - Subject: Re: NY SUbway Line by Line- 4 Train
      - Message Number: 762114
      - Posted by: ellow One
      - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:48:16 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: NY SUbway Line by Line- 4 Train posted by Charles Fiori on January 15, 1998 at 16:31:17: I have a good picture of the Jerome Yards. Don't forget about the semifore signals.
        
        Subject: Re: NY SUbway Line by Line- 4 Train
        Message Number: 762126
        Posted by: Dan Schwartz
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:48:41 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]NY SUbway Line by Line- 4 Train posted by subway-buff on January 15, 1998 at 12:57:28: Sean already mentioned the connection to the Polo Grounds shuttle, certainly include that. Some other points worth mentioning: - the line diverges slightly from Jerome Ave. south of Bedford Pk. Blvd. and rejoins it just north of that stop. - the Concourse yard provides a connection to the IND Concourse line as well as the IRT Jerome Ave. line. - there is an "underground bridge" over the Metro-North Hudson Line tracks just north of 149th St. station. - and of course, the fleeting view of Yankee Stadium as the trains pass, and the special staircases at 161st St. that were opened only for Stadium events. Also at 161st St., the history of the transfer to the IND (first with paper transfers, later the enclosed transfer of today) and the subway-type mosaic signs on the station wall, also found at Mosholu Parkway station.
        
        Subject: Re: NY SUbway Line by Line- 4 Train
        Message Number: 762149
        Posted by: Ed Sachs
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:49:54 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: NY SUbway Line by Line- 4 Train posted by sean on January 15, 1998 at 16:53:42: ... and the shuttle itself is a remnant of through service from the Jerome Ave. line to the 6th and 9th Ave. Els.
        
        Subject: Re: NY SUbway Line by Line- 4 Train
        Message Number: 762156
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:50:18 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]NY SUbway Line by Line- 4 Train posted by subway-buff on January 15, 1998 at 12:57:28: If you're planning to do the entire 4 line from end to end, that could be quite an undertaking. There is a great deal of history and other stuff here, so you might want to consider breaking it up into portions - the Dual COntracts portion from Grand Central to Woodlawn, the original contract one line from Grand Central to City Hall to Borough Hall, Brooklyn, and then the remainder. Clearly a mention of the ghost stations at 18th St and Worth St, as well as the original City Hall terminal and lower level of Brooklyn Bridge, are a must. I suppose mention should also be made of the Union Square crash in 1991. --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: NY SUbway Line by Line- 4 Train
        Message Number: 762172
        Posted by: subway-buff
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:51:05 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: NY SUbway Line by Line- 4 Train posted by ellow One on January 15, 1998 at 18:31:12: Where is this signal? Do you have the picture scanned? If not can yuo send me a copy Peggy Darlignton 970 Broaf Street Rm 1204 Newark, NJ 07101
        
        Subject: Re: NY SUbway Line by Line- 4 Train
        Message Number: 762176
        Posted by: Lou from Middletown
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:51:15 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]NY SUbway Line by Line- 4 Train posted by subway-buff on January 15, 1998 at 12:57:28: Not to mention how the line from Grand Central north was designed and built originally to the "wide" 10 ft demensions of the BMT, because it was originally designed to be part of the Triborough System, before the Dual Contracts came into play...
        
        Subject: Re: NY SUbway Line by Line- 4 Train
        Message Number: 762187
        Posted by: mellow one
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:51:41 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: NY SUbway Line by Line- 4 Train posted by subway-buff on January 17, 1998 at 06:09:16: I do not not have a personal picture of the semifore signals at Kingsbridge Rd. However, there is a picture of the signals in the book New York Transit Memories which I noted in an earlier posting of that title. My pictures of the Jerome yards come from a railfan trip in the early 60's. We also went down the new ramp between the Jerome line and the IND yards. I will be posting those pictures on my home page at http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Prairie/1346/.

Thread title: Re: Longest Lines Past: Potential Weird Line +E,J Question (762105)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:47:59 1998, by Carl M. Rabbin

Subject: Re: Longest Lines Past: Potential Weird Line +E,J Question
Message Number: 762105
Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:47:59 1998

In Reply to: [7]Re: Longest Lines Past: Potential Weird Line posted by Lou from Midletown on January 15, 1998 at 09:34:46: I think you missed my idea here, an idea, though, that Todd Glickman punctuated really well with his Bridge/Tunnel destination sign. My humorous potential line had the same exact northern and southern terminal (Jamaica Center), it was not meant to be merely a long line. It also is the only place you can have a line that loops upon itself, except for the Sea Beach-to-Brighton looping described in a nearby post below this one somewhere. BTW, someone implied in a post that the upper and lower tracks at Sutphin Blvd leading to Jamaica Center are never actually connected. I have never been out there since the new sections were built. Could someone describe what the stations and track configurations look like? Thanks in advance.
- Subject: Re: Longest Lines Past: Potential Weird Line +E,J Question
- Message Number: 762107
- Posted by: Peter Rosa
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:48:03 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Re: Longest Lines Past: Potential Weird Line +E,J Question posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 15, 1998 at 14:00:15: At Sutphin Boulevard (and presumably Jamaica Center, though I haven't been there), the E train is on the upper level and the J directly below. There are no track connections.
  - Subject: Re: Longest Lines Past: Potential Weird Line +E,J Question
  - Message Number: 762110
  - Posted by: Peter Rosa
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:48:08 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Longest Lines Past: Potential Weird Line +E,J Question posted by Peter Rosa on January 15, 1998 at 14:41:46: Just to expand on my previous answer, at Sutphin Boulevard both the E and the J stations are two-track stations with an island platform.
    - Subject: Re: Longest Lines Past: Potential Weird Line +E,J Question
    - Message Number: 762127
    - Posted by: Mike B
    - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:48:43 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: Longest Lines Past: Potential Weird Line +E,J Question posted by Peter Rosa on January 15, 1998 at 14:41:46: Why is the E on the upper level and the J on a lower level? Since the J dives under Archer Avenue from an elevated structure and the E is already underground when it reaches Archer Avenue, wouldn't it have made more sense to place the E on the lower level and the J on the upper? Seems that it would be more cost efficient to take a train that is elevated and have it run above a train that is already underground. See example... J --Elevated Structure----\ \ \---------- Underground (Archer Avenue) E---Already Underground---------------- Underground (Archer Avenue) From what has been described, the E is above the J..

Thread title: Re: #5 delivery (762118)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:48:24 1998, by John Betancourt

Subject: Re: #5 delivery
Message Number: 762118
Posted by: John Betancourt
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:48:24 1998

In Reply to: [8]Re: The Ex C train Line The madness posted by Wayne Johnson on January 13, 1998 at 12:28:05: If in 85', the #2 & #5 trains were "suppoosed" to have been delivered, how come they do not use the sliver trains? In the picture that you have, car number 1667, is on use @the number 6 train. I have been using the trains since I was born and trust me, the 2&5 trains do not use the silver cars! Thank You, John Betancourt from Puerto Rico mustangboy15@hotmail.com

Thread title: About Grand CEntral (762120)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:48:27 1998, by Larry

Subject: About Grand CEntral
Message Number: 762120
Posted by: Larry
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:48:27 1998

This message is for a person by the name of HTL. HTL seems to know a lot about grand Central Station and the levels. I want to ask him if he ever heard about the so call "Condos" under the station. I heard that they are located in only a few places. What are they? Abandoned rooms? Why were they built? Many homeless used to live there until the NYCPD cleaned them out. Where is this place? On a lower level?
- Subject: Re: About Grand CEntral
- Message Number: 762288
- Posted by: Bryan Layne
- Date: Mon Jan 26 10:29:48 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]About Grand CEntral posted by Larry on January 15, 1998 at 20:07:23: Moles. watch the movie "Mimic" its a labrynth down there.The whole island of Manhatten is a flippen underworld.
  - Subject: Re: About Grand CEntral
  - Message Number: 762289
  - Posted by: David Pirmann
  - Date: Mon Jan 26 10:29:51 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: About Grand CEntral posted by Bryan Layne on January 20, 1998 at 22:56:08: Yeah but as we've talked about in previous threads, "Mimic" was filmed in Toronto and on sets. :-) -Dave

Thread title: Pelham Bay Line (762123)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:48:34 1998, by Mellow One

Subject: Pelham Bay Line
Message Number: 762123
Posted by: Mellow One
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:48:34 1998

I would like to ask this question before Pelham Bay Line by Line is posted. We know that the Jerome Ave Line was connected to the 9th Ave El and what would become the White Plains Road line was connected to the 3rd Ave El. Was ther ever any serious consideration to connecting the 3rd Ave El to the Pelham Bay Line or could there have been initial link up at Westchester Ave between the structures when new or even now ? This would have been a question for the late Roger Arcara, may he ride that heavenly el.
- Subject: Re: Pelham Bay Line
- Message Number: 762135
- Posted by: Dan Schwartz
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:49:08 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Pelham Bay Line posted by Mellow One on January 15, 1998 at 20:29:45: There never was any such connection to the Pelham Bay line, nor was one ever planned AFAIK. I suppose it would be physically possible to build a new el structure along the currently el-free part of Westchester Ave., connecting the 2/5 line just north of Simpson St. station with the 6 (Pelham) line north of Whitlock Ave. station. I can't imagine there would be much support for such a plan. They just don't build els anymore, and they certainly don't build junctions where trains have to cross each other's path. There isn't any room on the 2/5 end to build a grade-separated junction, I don't think. And what would be the real point? To run 7th Avenue trains up the Pelham line? I suppose there must be people living along the Pelham line who would like access to the west side of Manhattan, but this doesn't seem like the way to go.

Thread title: Broadway (Brooklyn) Express Tracks (762128)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:48:46 1998, by Mike B

Subject: Broadway (Brooklyn) Express Tracks
Message Number: 762128
Posted by: Mike B
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:48:46 1998

Back before the days of skip-stop, there used to be Broadway-Brooklyn peak-hour express service between Broadway-Myrtle and Broadway Junction using the center express track. Since this was discontinued when the skip-stop started, is the center track still there and if so what is it used for (if anything.) Also, what kind of condition is it in. Thanks...
- Subject: Re: Broadway (Brooklyn) Express Tracks
- Message Number: 762143
- Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:49:33 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]Broadway (Brooklyn) Express Tracks posted by Mike B on January 15, 1998 at 22:37:34: To be accurate, express service between Myrtle Avenue and Eastern Parkway was not before the days of skip-stop. There used to (when I was a boy) morning-only westbound skip-stop service from Jamaica 168 St. to Eastern Parkway shared by a 15-Jamaica Express and 15-Jamaica local. West of Eastern Parkway the Express ran express, the local ran local, and the Myrtle-Chambers Express joined in at Myrtle Ave. In the afternoons there was no skip-stop anywhere but the 3 trains that ran were the Myrtle-Chambers Express, the 15-Jamaica Express, and the 14-Broadway Brooklyn Local, which ran to either Atlantic Avenue or Canarsie. The Jamaica line as I remember it at the time had the first BMT/IND fluorescent-light cars in the system with a round window at each end. And they had BMT number markers 14, 15, etc. After the big 1967 changeover skip-stop ran in both directions east of Eastern Parkway and various combinations of expresses and locals (including locals onto the 6th Avenue line to 57th St.) ran west of there, but with no more revenue connection to the Canarsie Line. About 10-15 years ago, when the K service stopped going to 6th Avenue from Broadway in Brooklyn, express service between Eastern Pkwy and Myrtle Avenue got switched to be a continuation of skip-stop service. I imagine, though I haven't been there lately, that the middle track is still there.
  - Subject: Re: Broadway (Brooklyn) Express Tracks
  - Message Number: 762145
  - Posted by: Charles Fiori
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:49:40 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: Broadway (Brooklyn) Express Tracks posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 16, 1998 at 09:55:28: Anybody out there know what the "Broadway Short Line" was? I have a side route sign from an R11 and that is one designation that is difficult to match with any routings of which I am aware.
    - Subject: Re: Broadway (Brooklyn) Express Tracks
    - Message Number: 762154
    - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
    - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:50:13 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: Broadway (Brooklyn) Express Tracks posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 16, 1998 at 09:55:28: The center track between Broadway Junction and Broadway - Myrtle, although ununsed in revenue service, looks to be in good shape. --Mark
      - Subject: Re: Broadway (Brooklyn) Express Tracks
      - Message Number: 762166
      - Posted by: Walter
      - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:50:51 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Broadway (Brooklyn) Express Tracks posted by Mike B on January 15, 1998 at 22:37:34: The Broadway (Brooklyn) express track between Marcy Ave. and Myrtle Ave. is still used today during rush hours for express service (J trains). Until 1974 the J train ran express from Eastern Parkway to Marcy Ave. (and the M ran express from Myrtle Ave. to Marcy Ave.) during rush hours. At some time in the 1960s or 1970s the Marcy Ave. crossovers (express track to local track Manhattan-bound and local track to express track Jamaica-bound) was moved from west of the Marcy Ave. station to east of it. In other words until that date Marcy Ave. was a local station, but now express trains also stop at Marcy Ave. Another point: I remember, as a boy in the early 1950s, riding the Jamaica train to Manhattan on Saturday mornings and running express from Eastern Parkway all the way to Essex St. When did Saturday express service end?
        
        Subject: Re: Broadway (Brooklyn) Express Tracks
        Message Number: 762177
        Posted by: Mike B
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:51:17 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Broadway (Brooklyn) Express Tracks posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 16, 1998 at 09:55:28: I have an old subway map which (after 1967) which shows that there was still peak hour revenue service from Broadway to Rockaway Parkway after the 1967 changeover. The JJ train ran betwwen Broad Street in Manhattan and any one of 4 terminals in Brooklyn/Queens. Atlatic Avenue, Rockaway Parkway, Crescent Street or 168th Street-Jamaica. In 1968, the 57th Street-6th Avenue station opened. At that point the JJ ended and the KK began. The KK ran from between 57th Street-6th Avenue and Broadway Junction or 168th Street-Jamaica. When the KK came to be, this ended all revenue service between Broadway and Canarsie. Although, during the off-peak hours, many KK tains were layed-up at Atlantic Avenue and at the Rockaway Parkway yard.
        
        Subject: Re: Broadway (Brooklyn) Express Tracks
        Message Number: 762232
        Posted by: Steve B
        Date: Mon Jan 26 10:27:25 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Broadway (Brooklyn) Express Tracks posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 16, 1998 at 09:55:28: Those BMT/IND fluorescent light cars with the round storm door windows were the R-16s. And, yes, they did have BMT number markings at that time. Funny thing - I rode the R-16s only twice in my life: once in Sept. 1967 from Marcy Ave. to Essex St. on a #15; the other time on Oct. 1986 on an M from Fulton St. to Essex St. By then, of course, the R-16s were falling apart. One observation: after the Big Change in 1967, through service from Broadway-Brooklyn to the Canarsie line was still provided during rush hours by the JJ train. I still have a map from that time period - the one which showed the NX and RJ routes. After the KK line made its debut in July of 1968, this rush hour through service was discontinued. So was the JJ. And, for that matter, the NX and RJ.
        
        Subject: Re: Broadway (Brooklyn) Express Tracks
        Message Number: 762332
        Posted by: Peter Dougherty
        Date: Mon Jan 26 10:32:32 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Broadway (Brooklyn) Express Tracks posted by Mike B on January 15, 1998 at 22:37:34: The center express track is still in revenue service between Marcy and Myrtle Av. There is no revenue service between Myrtle and Eastern Parkway, although the track is still perfectly maintained, and is used for deadheads, re-routes, work trains, etc.
        
        Subject: Re: Broadway (Brooklyn) Express Tracks
        Message Number: 762567
        Posted by: Andrew Huie
        Date: Fri Jan 30 14:21:53 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Broadway (Brooklyn) Express Tracks posted by Steve B on January 19, 1998 at 09:29:08: Actually, I remember the JJ, NX, and RJ lasted after the Chrystie Street connection. The JJ the ran to 168th Street along with the other lines. I don't know if it also terminated at other points. It was on a subway map with the "TA" logo on the front before it was replaced by the "M".
        
        Subject: Re: Broadway (Brooklyn) Express Tracks
        Message Number: 762598
        Posted by: Steve B
        Date: Fri Jan 30 14:23:31 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Broadway (Brooklyn) Express Tracks posted by Andrew Huie on January 25, 1998 at 04:55:28: Yes, that's correct. I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear. The JJ, RJ, and NX did operate after the Chrystie St. connection opened. As a matter of fact, the RJ and NX debuted when the connection opened. All three routes were dropped on July 1, 1968. I have the same map you're talking about.

Thread title: Does SEPTA Plan To Save Any Of The Old Market-Frankford Line Cars? (762130)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:48:53 1998, by Timothy

Subject: Does SEPTA Plan To Save Any Of The Old Market-Frankford Line Cars?
Message Number: 762130
Posted by: Timothy
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:48:53 1998

When the new M-4's are in full service on SEPTA's Market-Frankford Line, Is it likely that at least one set of the old Budd trains will be saved for nostalgia/railfan charters? I would hate to see every one of the old trains end up in the scrapyard. If SEPTA doesn't plan to keep any of the Budds, I hope that maybe another transit system will purchase them, and give them a new lease on life, as San Francisco did with some of Philadelphia's old PCC trollies. I hope at least one Budd car can be saved as a museum piece.
- Subject: Re: Does SEPTA Plan To Save Any Of The Old Market-Frankford Line Cars?
- Message Number: 762142
- Posted by: Dan Lawrence
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:49:29 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]Does SEPTA Plan To Save Any Of The Old Market-Frankford Line Cars? posted by Timothy on January 15, 1998 at 22:54:31: SEPTA will probably not save any of the 1961 Budds for nostalgia purposes. One set is to be converted into a trash train, but is not likely that any will be saved/sold to other properties. Remember, these are 1961 era cars built to an almst IRT clearence diagram. No one else runs a subway that narrow, and besides, the cost of rebuilding exceeds the useful life of a rebuild. Plus, all the remaining cars are all married pairs, so that reduces the likelyhood of a museum getting "a" car
  - Subject: Re: Does SEPTA Plan To Save Any Of The Old Market-Frankford Line Cars?
  - Message Number: 762150
  - Posted by: Michael S. Buglak
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:49:56 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Does SEPTA Plan To Save Any Of The Old Market-Frankford Line Cars? posted by Dan Lawrence on January 16, 1998 at 09:54:26: Have all the 600-series Budds already been retired? They are all single cars. Also, don't forget that these cars are wide-gauge (5' 2 1/2" I think) & would have to be regauged to run elsewhere. (It HAS been done, in the early 1990s for the Norristown High-Speed Line using trucks from retired PATH 1200-class "K" cars.) Michael S. Buglak, Collegeville, PA
    - Subject: Re: Does SEPTA Plan To Save Any Of The Old Market-Frankford Line Cars?
    - Message Number: 762153
    - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
    - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:50:11 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Does SEPTA Plan To Save Any Of The Old Market-Frankford Line Cars? posted by Timothy on January 15, 1998 at 22:54:31: On an ERA fantrip to the 69th St yard and shops last May (or June), we were able to ask this question directly to the supervisors of the people that maintain the cars. The answer was a resounding "no". SEPTA does not plan on saving any of the cars (save the 2 for trash train service) and wants to get them off the property as fast as they possibly can. --Mark
      - Subject: Re: Does SEPTA Plan To Save Any Of The Old Market-Frankford Line Cars?
      - Message Number: 762174
      - Posted by: Joshua Caesar
      - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:51:10 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Does SEPTA Plan To Save Any Of The Old Market-Frankford Line Cars? posted by Michael S. Buglak on January 16, 1998 at 12:59:56: Why don't they don't a pair to each trolley meusem around the country? If they want to get rid of them fast, what a great way. For the cost of a litttle bit of scrap, look at the PR they get. Joshua Caesar studlyjc@aol.com
        
        Subject: Re: Does SEPTA Plan To Save Any Of The Old Market-Frankford Line Cars?
        Message Number: 762190
        Posted by: Bobw
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:51:47 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Does SEPTA Plan To Save Any Of The Old Market-Frankford Line Cars? posted by Joshua Caesar on January 17, 1998 at 08:52:54: Two problems. One is "give". SEPTA doesn't give anything away. Second is "preserve". SEPTA's not too good in this area either. Some sources have noted that a group (no details on how big) will be kept for an interim period until the M-4's prove themselves. Also, if a surge in ridership occurs (and it did when new equipment was introduced both on the Broad St Subway and the subway-surface lines, and in each case SEPTA was caught with its proverbial pants down, with no additional old equipment on hand to take up the slack), the Budds could handle this. The only problem there is that the Budds are old and gett
        
        Subject: Re: Does SEPTA Plan To Save Any Of The Old Market-Frankford Line Cars?
        Message Number: 762191
        Posted by: Bobw
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:51:49 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Does SEPTA Plan To Save Any Of The Old Market-Frankford Line Cars? posted by Joshua Caesar on January 17, 1998 at 08:52:54: Two problems. One is "give". SEPTA doesn't give anything away. Second is "preserve". SEPTA's not too good in this area either. Some sources have noted that a group (no details on how big) will be kept for an interim period until the M-4's prove themselves. Also, if a surge in ridership occurs (and it did when new equipment was introduced both on the Broad St Subway and the subway-surface lines, and in each case SEPTA was caught with its proverbial pants down, with no additional old equipment on hand to take up the slack), the Budds could handle this. The only problem there is that the Budds are old and getting harder to maintain. This is why the shop forces say that none will remain behind when all M-4's are in operation.

Thread title: Restrooms (762131)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:48:56 1998, by Adam

Subject: Restrooms
Message Number: 762131
Posted by: Adam
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:48:56 1998

Does anybody know if there are any remaining restrooms in the subway? Or where they used to be? Are most of them just locked now or used for another purpose? I was in the subway recently and realized that it was close to impossible to find an open bathroom, at least at the stations I was at.
- Subject: Re: Restrooms
- Message Number: 762134
- Posted by: charlie muller
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:49:05 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]Restrooms posted by Adam on January 16, 1998 at 01:10:09: Most of restrooms are locked as far as i know. The bathrooms at bedford park blvd, where i get off, and the 205th st station of the d line are used as restrooms or lockers for the token booth people. The track workers use those also at the above two stations if they are working at those two stations. Also i know that the restrooms at 34th st and at 47th-50th st rockefeller center (where i get off to go to work) d line is used for the workers of the MTA. charlie muller.
  - Subject: Re: Restrooms
  - Message Number: 762151
  - Posted by: sdc_foti
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:49:59 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]Restrooms posted by Adam on January 16, 1998 at 01:10:09: Adam, Try 42nd and 8th mezza, Whenever i had an emergency I'd always held it in until I got to this stop and run up to Mezzanine to unload myself also In Flushing there is reputed to be one. Foti
    - Subject: Re: Restrooms
    - Message Number: 762152
    - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
    - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:50:08 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Restrooms posted by Adam on January 16, 1998 at 01:10:09: The restrooms at Roosevelt Ave - Jackson Heights, in the mezzanine of the IND line, are open to the public. I can state this from personal experience :) --Mark
      - Subject: Re: Restrooms
      - Message Number: 762157
      - Posted by: subway-buff
      - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:50:20 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Restrooms posted by Adam on January 16, 1998 at 01:10:09: Mr. Mabstoa has obtained a list and I will pick it up tomorrow, Saturday 1/17/1998. I will post to this site when I get it. (Yes, I will type it in since I don't have a scanner.)
        
        Subject: Re: Restrooms
        Message Number: 762161
        Posted by: Joshua Caesar
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:50:37 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Restrooms posted by Adam on January 16, 1998 at 01:10:09: Although I have never had to check it out, I think the bathrooms at 179th Street on the F are open still. Also, the bathrooms at the former Court Street station (now the Transit Museum) are still open. JC
        
        Subject: Re: Restrooms
        Message Number: 762163
        Posted by: Michael Justice
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:50:44 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Restrooms posted by Adam on January 16, 1998 at 01:10:09: I know that the one at 42 St (8 Ave) is still open. I have used the following ones in recent years: 34 Street/Herald Sq 179 Street Roosevelt Ave/Jackson Heights Stillwell Ave
        
        Subject: Re: Restrooms
        Message Number: 762183
        Posted by: Gary
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:51:32 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Restrooms posted by Adam on January 16, 1998 at 01:10:09: Since it dosn't matter to most of the clientel where or whether any of the few open bathrooms are, I considering suggesting to TA management that they open and modify a room on the mezzinine levels of the larger stations, a room with tiled, archway entrys,multiple-drained floors and tiled walls. Customers, who are going to go anyway, could enter,relieve,exit. Modesty isn't a problem since anywhere in the stations is a good place these days. Station cleaners would be provided with std. hose bibs at the entry of each arch. A simple hosing down the drain, and clean-ups done. I judge the quality of my work shift partially on how many puddles I have to jump. And then there's that favorite sing-along..."A Hundred Puddles of Pee on the Floor" Everybody join in...............
        
        Subject: Re: Restrooms
        Message Number: 762200
        Posted by: Mark Rubinsteim
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:52:15 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Restrooms posted by Adam on January 16, 1998 at 01:10:09: The restrooms are still open to the public at the Far Rockaway and Coney Island stations, both the last stops on their respective lines. I guess the MTA figures that if you've held it that far, you've earned your time in the toity.
        
        Subject: Re: Restrooms
        Message Number: 762207
        Posted by: Subman23
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:52:44 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Restrooms posted by Gary on January 17, 1998 at 14:02:16: Trust me on this one. Public restrooms cause more harm than they are worth. Subway restrooms are used mainly for the following: 1) homosexual hotels 2) homeless restaurants 3) pharmacies for the junkies.
        
        Subject: Re: Restrooms
        Message Number: 762208
        Posted by: Gary
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:52:53 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Restrooms posted by Subman23 on January 18, 1998 at 04:55:11: These points were told to me in "school". Homosexual hotels, or hetero sexual for that matter. Theres the time when leaving the signal quarters at the Plaza, the maintainer found himself face to face ( or some other parts!) with a quickie.. With an open type area, no partitions, a space would represent the hidden corner of a stair well or column. As I said, the relative openness or not does not seem to be the deciding factor. A room, or area devoid of benches, shelves, partitions, and one that perhaps has a perimeter type of wash down system, sounds somewhat loiter unfriendly. Especially when its covered in urine. As for the darn junkies. I suppose drug addiction is something that the city/state legal dept. needs to deal with. In "school" we're told about finding used "sharps" on the track bed.The junkies are out there anyway. And yet the disgusting floors of the stations and bench walks exist. How about managements concern for the customers that are exposed to unsanitary conditions. The bench walks are often "slippery with slime" creating an unsafe walking condition near the trackway. What happened to the Saftey Standdown? I don't propose this for every station. Subman23.....thank you for the input. The forth coming website dedicated to Transit/Subway employees will explore a wide range of ideas and topics. Anonymous posting names will insure discretion when posting. I'd like to have it be "safe " for workers and management to exprees their "real" opinions. The TWU 100 site appears to be alot of union/political mumbo-jumbo. Having a place for the 40K + employees, or percentage that are online, MAY have a positive effect on the work place and attitudes. The web server/host has been contacted, and already have volunteer/support. I see an online news letter devoid of much of the TA hype and posture. Stay tuned for more. Hope to see you there. Gary/MOW/Signals
        
        Subject: Re: Restrooms
        Message Number: 762210
        Posted by: Joshua Caesar
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:53:03 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Restrooms posted by Mark Rubinsteim on January 17, 1998 at 23:31:17: The restroom is also open at 179th Street, like I said in an earlier post ([9]Re: Restrooms) I guess that this really has something more to do with providing restrooms for train crews whose trains are layed up at the moment. Although your hold it that far, time in the toity theory is kinda funny. Joshua Caesar studlyjc@aol.com
        
        Subject: Re: Restrooms
        Message Number: 762240
        Posted by: Peter Rosa
        Date: Mon Jan 26 10:27:46 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Restrooms posted by Joshua Caesar on January 18, 1998 at 17:06:29: There are remarkably clean restrooms at the LIRR Flatbush Avenue terminal, directly adjacent to the Atlantic-Pacific subway station complex. Starting this summer users of the daily/weekly/monthly MetroCards will be able to use these restrooms at no cost. Even now, the $1.50 cost (for subway riders not beginning or ending their trips at A-P) just might be worth it. BTW, I'm not so sure that the open restrooms at subway terminal stations (179, Stilwell, Far Rock etc.) are there for the convenience of train crews. Presumably there are employee-only restrooms at many other stations.
        
        Subject: Re: Restrooms
        Message Number: 762324
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Mon Jan 26 10:32:09 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Restrooms posted by Peter Rosa on January 19, 1998 at 13:14:06: I assure you that transit operators are very desireous of rest facilities for their employees at terminals and major layovers. It is also likely that the facilities used by a lot of trainmen tend not to become pigstyes because the employees know who to look up if they are not cleaned regularly. The fate of the seldom used facility became such that closing them was apparently acceptable to the riding public. I was taught at home to NEVER enter a subway rest room no matter how bad it hurt! As a result, to this day I can amaze nurses with my bladder capacity. (over two litres!) Yes, young guys, when you get old enough that's all that remains to impress them!

Thread title: Name dropping (762132)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:48:59 1998, by John F. Crowley

Subject: Name dropping
Message Number: 762132
Posted by: John F. Crowley
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:48:59 1998

I was watching an old Saturday Night Live rerun the other night and saw Lou Marini playing sax in the band, and it reminded me of the time I saw him on the D train one evening. I've also seen Tony Randall, Eric Roberts and Tiny Tim, may he rest in peace. I guess most celebs take cabs, but are such sightings unusual?
- Subject: Re: Name dropping
- Message Number: 762141
- Posted by: Timothy Speer
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:49:27 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Name dropping posted by John F. Crowley on January 16, 1998 at 01:39:32: I ran into Vic Tayback one day on the D or the B. (I got on at DeKalb and can't remember which it was)
  - Subject: Re: Name dropping
  - Message Number: 762148
  - Posted by: Peter Rosa
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:49:50 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Name dropping posted by Timothy Speer on January 16, 1998 at 09:09:16: JFK Jr. is reputed to ride the subway from time to time.
    - Subject: Re: Name dropping
    - Message Number: 762215
    - Posted by: Nick
    - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:53:15 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: Name dropping posted by Peter Rosa on January 16, 1998 at 12:08:25: I remember seeing a Yankee Player (can't remember which one) in an interview saying that he takes the #4 to work each day.-Nick
      - Subject: Re: Name dropping
      - Message Number: 762284
      - Posted by: Daniel
      - Date: Mon Jan 26 10:29:38 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Name dropping posted by Nick on January 18, 1998 at 22:15:33: If you want name dropping, I've seen John Olerud take the #7 out to Shea... The way I knew it was him was when he got off the train at Shea, and dropped something as he went downstairs: HIS GLOVE!! It was really early in the day (about 9:30am), and the game was to be at 1pm... Note: Although I live in Jersey, I just so happened to be on the train going to Shea to see if I could get autographs...
        
        Subject: Re: Name dropping
        Message Number: 762312
        Posted by: stan
        Date: Mon Jan 26 10:31:29 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Name dropping posted by Nick on January 18, 1998 at 22:15:33: I remember I lived on the same block as Mickey Rivers in The Bronx when he was with the Yankees (Eastburn Ave.), and he took the "D" train down to the ballpark.

Thread title: CRUNCH! (also an MBTA commuter rail question) (762140)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:49:23 1998, by Timothy Speer

Subject: CRUNCH! (also an MBTA commuter rail question)
Message Number: 762140
Posted by: Timothy Speer
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:49:23 1998

This morning, the 0710 Kingston local hit a crossing gate in Braintree. It was pretty windy, and the gate was being blown into the train's path. As soon as the engineer saw it, we stopped hard and as short as one can on snowy track, but the train was still going 30 mph or so when it hit, and the gate was crumpled like a giant egg noodle, and was sitting there moving back and forth, trying to meet its proxy switch. Sounds like a badly designed crossing gate to me! Now for the Question -- does anyone know what the yellow D stands for on the refurbished 200 series Pullmans on the MBTA? Not all the cars have it -- I believe I was on car# 241D this morning, but I know there are others without the D.
- Subject: Re: CRUNCH! (also an MBTA commuter rail question)
- Message Number: 762322
- Posted by: Doug Hall
- Date: Mon Jan 26 10:32:04 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]CRUNCH! (also an MBTA commuter rail question) posted by Timothy Speer on January 16, 1998 at 09:04:05: Not sure what the D means. Have there been any train/motor vehicle accidents that you know of on the Kingston, Plymouth or Middleborough lines ? I've seen nothing on the news.
  - Subject: Re: CRUNCH! (also an MBTA commuter rail question)
  - Message Number: 762335
  - Posted by: Timothy Speer
  - Date: Mon Jan 26 10:32:40 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: CRUNCH! (also an MBTA commuter rail question) posted by Doug Hall on January 21, 1998 at 18:09:15: No collisions to my knowledge. Could the "D" possibly signify cars that were converted from CTC's (control) to BTC's (blind)?

Thread title: Re: ... +E,J Question (762144)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:49:35 1998, by Carl M. Rabbin

Subject: Re: ... +E,J Question
Message Number: 762144
Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:49:35 1998

In Reply to: [7]Re: Longest Lines Past: Potential Weird Line +E,J Question posted by Mike B on January 15, 1998 at 22:23:51: I think the E platform is above the J because the original plan was/is to have it connect to the (outdoor) LIRR tracks through St. Albans Through that part of Queens, the tracks currently split into two branches, one of which, in the future, would be for LIRR trains, the other for the Subway. The J was/is to end at Jamaica Center, since people travelling from St. Albans would probably prefer to take the much faster Queens Blvd line into Manhattan. It seems that extending the line to St. Albans has to be the easiest and cheapest part of the whole Jamaica reconstruction plan. Does any know why haven't they done that yet?
- Subject: Re: ... +E,J Question
- Message Number: 762175
- Posted by: Joshua Caesar
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:51:12 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Re: ... +E,J Question posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 16, 1998 at 10:08:54: For much of the same reason that there is no 2nd ave line, a tunnel to Staten Island, and a few other missing projects. Lack of money is probably the big factor in that project not happening, although I am sure there could be other reasons as well. Joshua Caesar studlyjc@aol.com
  - Subject: Re: ... +E,J Question
  - Message Number: 762195
  - Posted by: Christopher Rivera
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:51:59 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: ... +E,J Question posted by Joshua Caesar on January 17, 1998 at 08:58:21: In the 1970's the MTA had plenty of lines but it was easy to get lost in the maze of tunnels. To add more lines would be a problem and it would damage alot of lines that run near it.

Thread title: Re: Broadway (Brooklyn) Short Line (762146)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:49:43 1998, by Ed Sachs

Subject: Re: Broadway (Brooklyn) Short Line
Message Number: 762146
Posted by: Ed Sachs
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:49:43 1998

In Reply to: [8]Re: Broadway (Brooklyn) Express Tracks posted by Charles Fiori on January 16, 1998 at 10:30:08: The "Broadway Short Line" was the #14 Broadway Local rush hours (PM only maybe?) service from Canal St. to Atlantic Ave. or Rockaway Pky. referred to previously. Also I recall that at some times, some trains went to Crescent St. on the Jamaica line.

Thread title: Bus Service (762147)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:49:47 1998, by Charles Fiori

Subject: Bus Service
Message Number: 762147
Posted by: Charles Fiori
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:49:47 1998

Today's (1/16/98) NY Daily News has a piece on how bus service in NY has deteriorated a bit and needs to "ramp up" to accomodate all the users expected when all the new types of passes come on line.(Wonder where I heard that before???) [7]Bus Report Sez Service in Tank

Thread title: Can anyone tell me what service changes are in store during the (762165)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:50:49 1998, by ____________________________________________________

Subject: Can anyone tell me what service changes are in store during the
Message Number: 762165
Posted by: ____________________________________________________
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:50:49 1998
- Subject: Re: Can anyone tell me what service changes are in store during the
- Message Number: 762178
- Posted by: ____________________________________________________
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:51:20 1998
  - Subject: Re: Can anyone tell me what service changes are in store during the
  - Message Number: 762180
  - Posted by: ____________________________________________________
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:51:24 1998

Thread title: Nathan (762170)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:51:00 1998, by Electroliner Question

Subject: Nathan
Message Number: 762170
Posted by: Electroliner Question
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:51:00 1998

I was thinking, how fast did the old "Electroliner" interurbans go? Were they truly a "High speed" interurban? I wasn't alive at the time so I hope someone could help me out. thanx
- Subject: Re: Nathan
- Message Number: 762186
- Posted by: Mellow One
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:51:40 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Nathan posted by Electroliner Question on January 17, 1998 at 04:17:34: Yes, the were very fast. They would exceed 80 mph on some stretches. I saw and rode them when I was stationed at Great Lakes NTC in 62 and rode on the lat day of operation in Jan of 63. See Middleton's book "North Shore" and the many CERA bulletins that describe the line and the Electroliners. I do not know how fast they ran as Liberty Liners. You will have to check other bulletins or magazine articles for that period of thier history. I know that one of them is now preserved in working order at the Illinois Railway Museum.

Thread title: Electroliner Question (762171)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:51:02 1998, by Nathan

Subject: Electroliner Question
Message Number: 762171
Posted by: Nathan
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:51:02 1998

I was thinking, how fast did the old "Electroliner" interurbans go? Were they truly a "High speed" interurban? I wasn't alive at the time so I hope someone could help me out. thanx
- Subject: Re: Electroliner Question
- Message Number: 762185
- Posted by: Alan Follett
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:51:37 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Electroliner Question posted by Nathan on January 17, 1998 at 04:18:16: The Electroliners were indeed fast; according to Middleton's _North Shore: America's Fastest Interurban_, their eight motors totalling 1000 HP gave them a free-running speed of 85 MPH, and they could hit 100 MPH with field shunting. And they were regularly operated at or near these speeds on the long straightaways through the Skokie Valley and between Waukegan and Milwaukee. In the 1956 timetable, the fastest 'Liner schedule, No. 818, Sunday evenings only, with no stops between Kenosha and Howard Street, made the 85 miles from Milwaukee to the Chicago Loop in 1:49, despite slow street running leaving Milwaukee and several sharp curves on the "L" south of Wilson Avenue. End-to-end average, then, was about 46.78 MPH. The longest non-stop segment, say about 40 miles, was carded for 42 minutes, for an average of 57 MPH. Other 'Liner runs, making more intermediate stops, managed times of about 1:53, an average of about 45 MPH. It should be noted that even the North Shore's older heavyweight cars did almost as well; typical Chicago-Milwaukee cardings for conventional trains averaged around two hours, with about ten intermediate stops. All this, and the famous railfan seat opposite the motorman's cab, and the Electroburger too. Sorry you missed them! If you're ever in the Chicago area, the Illinois Railway Museum at Union (about 50 miles west of Chicago) has one restored to its original appearance.
  - Subject: Re: Electroliner Question
  - Message Number: 762249
  - Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
  - Date: Mon Jan 26 10:28:18 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Electroliner Question posted by Alan Follett on January 17, 1998 at 15:06:14: Electroburger????
    - Subject: Re: Electroliner Question
    - Message Number: 762255
    - Posted by: Alan Follett
    - Date: Mon Jan 26 10:28:30 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: Electroliner Question posted by Philip Nasadowski on January 19, 1998 at 21:33:19: The Electroburger was the featured sandwich in the Electroliners' tavern-lounge cars--about a quarter-pound of beef, as I recall. Ad copy from the 5/23/54 public timetable: "TASTY SNACKS DELICIOUS BEVERAGES Appetiazing light breakfasts, luncheons, and dinners--as well as liquid refreshments--serveed in the Electroliner Lounge Cars add pleasure to your trip between Chicago and Milwaukee. We recommend for your enjoyment "the Electroburger"...selected beef tenderloin electrically cooked to retain all its delicious flavor...served on a tasty roll...with potato chips, crisp crunchy relish and coffee, tea, or milk. Try it! It's economical, too." (The dots were in the original text, and do not represent an ellipsis.) I would like to think that some portion of my present Chestertonian girth still owes its origins to the Electroburger.
      - Subject: Re: Electroliner Question
      - Message Number: 762323
      - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
      - Date: Mon Jan 26 10:32:07 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Electroliner Question posted by Alan Follett on January 20, 1998 at 00:58:31: Chestertonian? This is a young crowd! Try "Jabaesqe" for those unfamiliar with G.K.'s body type.
        
        Subject: Re: Electroliner Question
        Message Number: 762334
        Posted by: Alan Follett
        Date: Mon Jan 26 10:32:38 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Electroliner Question posted by Gary Jacobi on January 21, 1998 at 18:49:42: Hmm--good point--although, like GKC and unlike the reprehensible Hutt, I do at least have legs!

Thread title: Staten Island Private Express Carriers (762182)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:51:30 1998, by Steve L

Subject: Staten Island Private Express Carriers
Message Number: 762182
Posted by: Steve L
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:51:30 1998

Does anyone have a listing of Private Carriers including Route numbers or Route names Thank you ....Steve

Thread title: Is it true that NYCT might add a new bus route between the College of SI & (762184)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:51:35 1998, by .

Subject: Is it true that NYCT might add a new bus route between the College of SI &
Message Number: 762184
Posted by: .
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:51:35 1998

Thread title: Sub-Game (762193)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:51:54 1998, by Christopher Rivera

Subject: Sub-Game
Message Number: 762193
Posted by: Christopher Rivera
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:51:54 1998

Do you think that you know alot about the New york City Subway? Then answer the follwing questions. 1. Name there was only one line that went from the West End Line through Coney Island on to the Brighton Line.Was it the- 1. NX train. QB train or the QJ train? 2.What was the AA train line replaced by- 1. The K train. The E Train or the C Train? 3. What was the QJ train replaced by? Was it the- 1. The J train 2.The EE train or the JJ train? 4. True or false. Did the N train terminate at 57 Street? 5. In the 1960's in brooklyn the 4 train had 3 terminals. Were they 1. Atlantic Ave/Utica Ave and Flatbush Avenue 2.Utica Ave/New Lots Avenue and Atlantic Ave? 6.In Manhattan the 6 train had a terminal(This was in the 1960's) was it- 1. South Ferry or City Hall. 7. When numbers came out in 1907 what were the numbers? Hint: Some of the numbers are still here. Bonus. In the 1960's the was a KK train. What were the terminals? Hin't the Terminls are still on use.
- Subject: Re: Sub-Game
- Message Number: 762199
- Posted by: Mike B
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:52:13 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Sub-Game posted by Christopher Rivera on January 17, 1998 at 18:24:53: Do you think that you know alot about the New york City Subway? Then answer the follwing questions. 1. Name there was only one line that went from the West End Line through Coney Island on to the Brighton Line.Was it the- 1. NX train. QB train or the QJ train? None of the above. There is no connection between the West-End and Brighton Beach at Coney Island. The NX ran thru the Sea Beach thru Coney Island to the Brighton Line. 2.What was the AA train line replaced by- 1. The K train. The E Train or the C Train? The K train. 3. What was the QJ train replaced by? Was it the- 1. The J train 2.The EE train or the JJ train? The J train. 4. True or false. Did the N train terminate at 57 Street? True 5. In the 1960's in brooklyn the 4 train had 3 terminals. Were they 1. Atlantic Ave/Utica Ave and Flatbush Avenue 2.Utica Ave/New Lots Avenue and Atlantic Ave? Atlantic Ave/Utica Ave and Flatbush Avenue. 6.In Manhattan the 6 train had a terminal(This was in the 1960's) was it- 1. South Ferry or City Hall. South Ferry 7. When numbers came out in 1907 what were the numbers? Hint: Some of the numbers are still here. 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,9,10,14,15,16 Bonus. In the 1960's the was a KK train. What were the terminals? Hin't the Terminls are still on use. 57th Street-6th Avenue Broadway Junction / Jamaica-168th Street
  - Subject: Re: Sub-Game
  - Message Number: 762202
  - Posted by: Bootsy
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:52:26 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: Sub-Game posted by Mike B on January 17, 1998 at 21:41:12: Was #1 supposed to be a trick question? I almost got fooled by it! I didn't really "see" the West End part -- just the part about going through Coney Island.

Thread title: Re: NY Subway Line by Line- 4 Train (762194)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:51:57 1998, by Christopher Rivera

Subject: Re: NY Subway Line by Line- 4 Train
Message Number: 762194
Posted by: Christopher Rivera
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:51:57 1998

In Reply to: [8]Re: NY SUbway Line by Line- 4 Train posted by Lou from Middletown on January 17, 1998 at 10:41:34: The 4 train is the most famous line in the New York City Subway System Oh if you go into the section I made up. It is called Sub-Game you will get one of the hardest questions in the game. Check it out.

Thread title: $ train- Bronx Mosaics (762197)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:52:03 1998, by subway-buff

Subject: $ train- Bronx Mosaics
Message Number: 762197
Posted by: subway-buff
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:52:03 1998

I spent 8 hours riding this entire line today, getting off at every station and surveying the platforms, mezzanines, station houses, underpasses and found a new discovery. We all know of the mosaic at Moshulu Parkway. I found another at 161 street. It is painted over but you can see through the paint. Look by the stairs to go to the IND and you'll see it- both platforms. It simply says 161 street. Unless they are under a windscreen, no other station has these. I also found what appears to be a new tunnel turning Southeastward from the Brooklyn bound 3 track at Utica. It is just past the crossover. Does anyone know if this was for a future connection. (I did in as research for my project on this line.12 pages of notes!!)

Thread title: 4 train- Bronx Mosaics (762198)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:52:09 1998, by subway-buff

Subject: 4 train- Bronx Mosaics
Message Number: 762198
Posted by: subway-buff
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:52:09 1998

I spent 8 hours riding this entire line today, getting off at every station and surveying the platforms, mezzanines, station houses, underpasses and found a new discovery. We all know of the mosaic at Moshulu Parkway. I found another at 161 street. It is painted over but you can see through the paint. Look by the stairs to go to the IND and you'll see it- both platforms. It simply says 161 street. Unless they are under a windscreen, no other station has these. I also found what appears to be a new tunnel turning Southeastward from the Brooklyn bound 3 track at Utica. It is just past the crossover. Does anyone know if this was for a future connection. (I did in as research for my project on this line.12 pages of notes!!)
- Subject: Re: 4 train- Bronx Mosaics
- Message Number: 762209
- Posted by: Adam
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:52:58 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]4 train- Bronx Mosaics posted by subway-buff on January 17, 1998 at 19:00:16: Wow, it sounds like you really did do your homework! Too bad they don't have the $4 ride-all-you-want card now, it would have saved you a lot of money!
  - Subject: Re: 4 train- Bronx Mosaics
  - Message Number: 762211
  - Posted by: subway-buff
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:53:05 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: 4 train- Bronx Mosaics posted by Adam on January 18, 1998 at 15:29:55: I stayed in the fare control. You can see from train windows, platforms (especially since the extreme ends of this line have no windscreens!!). To those asking about 9th ave- some crossties are still there! as of 1/17/1998, on both the upper level(4 train) and lower level. I did this leg on just two fares with a lunch stop in the middle. Tomorrow, thanks MLK :-), I'll cover 170 to woodlawn and then write it up. I have e-mailed several non-subtalk posters in transit for info. I have 12 pages of notes so far!! Note: I am covering the **express* stops only. I hope that whoever is inspired to do Pelham will cover the local stops-including City Hall. This is not a volunteer,yet, but *if* Dave likes my 4 piece, then ***maybe*** I finish the Lex by adding Pelham (I am leaving South Ferry for the Pelham person)
    - Subject: Re: 4 train- Bronx Mosaics
    - Message Number: 762269
    - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
    - Date: Mon Jan 26 10:29:03 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]4 train- Bronx Mosaics posted by subway-buff on January 17, 1998 at 19:00:16: > I also found what appears to be a new tunnel turning Southeastward from > the Brooklyn bound 3 track at Utica. It is just past the crossover. Does > anyone know if this was for a future connection. This sounds like the IRT started doing some small prep work for the planned extension of the IRT down Utica Avenue to Avenue U, an expansion which never occured. --Mark

Thread title: Oueensborough Plaza (762203)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:52:30 1998, by Ray Ottulich

Subject: Oueensborough Plaza
Message Number: 762203
Posted by: Ray Ottulich
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:52:30 1998

Always wondered what the massive amounts of EL structure were for in the plaza, when I was a kid used to ride by from Ditmars all the time, though the majority of it did not have tract at the time 50's 60's 70's remember them removing a large portion in the 70's. Where was this Stienway line? I know about the Queensborough bridge line but what about the rest?
- Subject: Re: Oueensborough Plaza
- Message Number: 762320
- Posted by: Gary Jacobi
- Date: Mon Jan 26 10:31:55 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]Oueensborough Plaza posted by Ray Ottulich on January 17, 1998 at 23:44:05: The Steinway Tunnel refers to the segment of the #7 line between Van Alst and Grand Central. The Steinway Tunnel article from the ERA publication, referenced elsewhere below, is MUST reading!

Thread title: extension of the S or 7 westward (762212)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:53:08 1998, by Lefty

Subject: extension of the S or 7 westward
Message Number: 762212
Posted by: Lefty
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:53:08 1998

it would be sooo nice if they extended the 7 or the S from times square going west to meet up with the A,C,E so people wouldnt have to make that loooong xfer walk.. im pretty sure that its impossible to extend the S, but what about the 7?
- Subject: Re: extension of the S or 7 westward
- Message Number: 762233
- Posted by: Peter Rosa
- Date: Mon Jan 26 10:27:28 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]extension of the S or 7 westward posted by Lefty on January 18, 1998 at 19:32:43: You're right about the Shuttle - any westward expansion would be blocked by the 1/2/3/9 tracks. Now the 7 is a different story. Its tracks already run nearly to 8th Avenue, abutting the unused lower level of the 42nd Street IND station. It therefore might be possible to lessen the long connection merely by reconfiguring some of the stairways, with no track expansion necessary. But keep in mind that the 7 - A/C/E transfer isn't really that long now; transferring from the other Times Square trains (especially the N/R) is what really calls for a decent set of hiking boots.
  - Subject: Re: extension of the S or 7 westward
  - Message Number: 762258
  - Posted by: Adam
  - Date: Mon Jan 26 10:28:36 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: extension of the S or 7 westward posted by Peter Rosa on January 19, 1998 at 09:44:08: Has anyone ever thought of extending the #7 by connecting its tracks with the tracks in the lower level of 42nd and then running the 7 through Manhattan and into Brooklyn possibly? I think this would be an attractive route for commuters from Queens and would reduce the number of train transfers for a lot of people.
    - Subject: Re: extension of the S or 7 westward
    - Message Number: 762261
    - Posted by: Steve B
    - Date: Mon Jan 26 10:28:42 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: extension of the S or 7 westward posted by Adam on January 20, 1998 at 01:38:15: I can see one problem right away: since IRT cars are narrower than IND/BMT cars, you'd have an unsafe gap between the platform edge and the side of a 7 train once it started running on the IND portion of such a connection. Gap fillers would have to be installed at IND stations, similar to what they have at Union Square and South Ferry. Come to think of it, if the 2nd Ave. line is ever built, and if it does get tied in with any IRT lines in the Bronx as originally planned, you'd be looking at the same scenario (not to mention shaving back platforms).
      - Subject: Re: extension of the S or 7 westward
      - Message Number: 762271
      - Posted by: sdc-foti
      - Date: Mon Jan 26 10:29:08 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: extension of the S or 7 westward posted by Adam on January 20, 1998 at 01:38:15: Yah, Sounds good, create a Chinatown to Chinatown Express Pass Manhattan Chinatown and go to Brooklyn Chinatoen at Boro park. What a grand idea do all your shopping, for a $6.25 fare. Sherman Cheung
        
        Subject: Re: extension of the S or 7 westward
        Message Number: 762272
        Posted by: sdc-foti
        Date: Mon Jan 26 10:29:10 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: extension of the S or 7 westward posted by Adam on January 20, 1998 at 01:38:15: Yah, Sounds good, create a Chinatown to Chinatown Express Pass Manhattan Chinatown and go to Brooklyn Chinatoen at Boro park. What a grand idea do all your shopping, for a $6.25 fare. Sherman Cheung
        
        Subject: Re: extension of the S or 7 westward
        Message Number: 762273
        Posted by: Peter Rosa
        Date: Mon Jan 26 10:29:11 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: extension of the S or 7 westward posted by Adam on January 20, 1998 at 01:38:15: Connecting the 7 with the 8th Avenue IND line would be impossible (or at least highly impractical) given the different equipment sizes. Now, extending the 7 to the Javits Center, *that* would be an excellent and probably reasonably priced idea ...
        
        Subject: Re: extension of the S or 7 westward
        Message Number: 762276
        Posted by: Chris C
        Date: Mon Jan 26 10:29:21 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: extension of the S or 7 westward posted by Steve B on January 20, 1998 at 08:27:55: They should send the #7 west with a stop at 9th or even 10th Ave. Before having it turn South stopping at the Javits center on its way to World Trade or possibly Battery Park city. What if the #7 turned south at 11th Ave and the L Train turned north along 10th Ave connecting with the #7 at 10th Ave and 42nd Street??? Each could stop on opposite sides of the Javits Center. Or What if the #7 went south along 10th or 11th Aves and the L was extended west on 14th street to make a connection????

Thread title: drawings/painting the ceiling @ GCT (762213)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:53:10 1998, by Lefty

Subject: drawings/painting the ceiling @ GCT
Message Number: 762213
Posted by: Lefty
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:53:10 1998

how exactly do they go about drawing the outline (which theyre doing now) and painting the ceiling at GCT? i didnt see any way that they could get up there.. must be a scary job. who is doing it? who is the artist? does the piece have a name? and just for kicks whats the expected (+ 1 or 2 years) date of completion of construction @ GCT?
- Subject: Re: drawings/painting the ceiling @ GCT
- Message Number: 762308
- Posted by: Gary Jacobi
- Date: Mon Jan 26 10:31:20 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]drawings/painting the ceiling @ GCT posted by Lefty on January 18, 1998 at 19:35:57: Are you refering to the painting of the Stellar Constellations on the ceiling of the main waiting room? If so, it would be interesting to know if they are restoring the original (which was mistakenly painted as a mirror image), or correcting that historic error. It hardly matters now that the night sky cannot be adequately viewed in any major city! I would imagine the artists work from scaffolding, but if you don't see any, perhaps they work from a cherry picker type of device. Look for likely equipment parked in a sparsely used part of the terminal floor.
  - Subject: Re: drawings/painting the ceiling @ GCT
  - Message Number: 762311
  - Posted by: ed
  - Date: Mon Jan 26 10:31:27 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: drawings/painting the ceiling @ GCT posted by Gary Jacobi on January 21, 1998 at 12:29:21: For painting the ceiling with the constellations, they used this huge arch-shaped scaffold that gradually moved east-to-west across the room. When one section was finished, they moved it on to the next section, and you could see the work in progress by comparing one side to the other. The original, more detailed, ceiling from the original terminal is still underneath the present ceiling which was painted on panels that were nailed to the ceiling in the 1940's. A study was done to see if they should go whole hog and take the panels off and restore the original 1912 ceiling, but there was damage to the original, and there were asbestos problems, too. So, the later ceiling is the one that's restored. As for correcting the "historical error," GCT is a declared NYC landmark, and that kind of alteration wouldn't be possible under the landmarks preservation law.

Thread title: Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails (762214)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:53:13 1998, by David McCabe

Subject: Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails
Message Number: 762214
Posted by: David McCabe
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:53:13 1998

[This question was inspired by the very cool track maps on this site!] What connections exist or did exist between the subways and outside railroads? Are there any outside of Brooklyn? I am particularly interested in the connections in the vicinity of the 9th avenue stop on the Culver line. The maps show an existing connection between the NY Cross Harbor RR and the subway track. Does this in fact exist? If so, is it used, and what for? If not, what was it used for in the past? How about the famous South Brooklyn Railway? (connects on the east side of the 9th Ave. stop). The map detail mentions garbage platforms. Is this where all the garbage from the system ends up? Is the SBK anything besides a bit of service track on the subway, or is it used for freight purposes via some connection to the NYCHRR? Also, what was the connection between the LIRR Bay Ridge Branch and the L line used for? A related question: the "Linden Wye" presumably is used for access to the Linden Shops. But if this track is not electrified, what are it and the Linden Shops used for? Exclusively MOW equipment? Thanks! David (To email remove NOT and dontspamme from my email address!!!!!!!!)
- Subject: Re: Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails
- Message Number: 762264
- Posted by: Lou from Middletown
- Date: Mon Jan 26 10:28:49 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails posted by David McCabe on January 18, 1998 at 20:20:24: There are a couple of places where connections COULDbe made betwen subway and regular rr's, but there are none currently in place. 1) There is a place at Grand Central where there was planned a connection between the lower level of GCT and the IRT original line. The rumor has it that such a connection once did exist, being only used by August Belmont the original owner of the IRT. 2) The same goes at Atlantic Ave in Brooklyn-this would have used by Mr.Belmont to go to his race track (he was also a big LIRR stockholder!) There once was a connection between the LIRR and the BMT Broadway-Brooklyn line, so through trains could run to the Rockaways via the old LIRR line-I believe you can still see evidence of the connection today!! If I've made any mistakes in the above, someone please let me know!!
  - Subject: Re: Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails
  - Message Number: 762265
  - Posted by: Peter Rosa
  - Date: Mon Jan 26 10:28:53 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails posted by Lou from Middletown on January 20, 1998 at 09:22:36: There is some question as to whether Belmont's IRT-LIRR connection at Atlantic Avenue was ever used. The trackway itself is in plain sight, at the north end of the Manhattan-bound 2,3 platform, though there seems to be some construction work in the area.
    - Subject: Re: Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails
    - Message Number: 762266
    - Posted by: si2000
    - Date: Mon Jan 26 10:28:56 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails posted by David McCabe on January 18, 1998 at 20:20:24: There is a railroad connection to the subway system west of the 9th Avenue station near 4th Avenue. The one track comes from 2nd Avenue near 39th Street, passes around the Price Club parking lot, crosses 3rd Avenue, then proceeds down into the 'Culver' cut. There is a standard r/y/g/ signal at the point where this one track enters the system. The connection is visible from 3rd Avenue at 39th Street, or from the BQE 39th Street exit. I have never seen any activity on this link, but it must be used occasionally because the track was re-located and fenced-in at the time of the Price Club's construction in 1997.
      - Subject: Re: Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails
      - Message Number: 762270
      - Posted by: Larry Littlefield
      - Date: Mon Jan 26 10:29:06 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails posted by si2000 on January 20, 1998 at 10:38:24: The TA uses the SBRWY link to the 9th Avenue Yard to receive construction materials and train delivered by ship or barge. For example, the trains shipped up to M/K in Hornell for rebuilding were barged across the harbor then put on trains through Port Jervis to upstate New York. I saw some subway cars going by on flatcars once on a Delaware River canoe trip.
        
        Subject: Re: Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails
        Message Number: 762283
        Posted by: Daniel
        Date: Mon Jan 26 10:29:35 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails posted by Lou from Middletown on January 20, 1998 at 09:22:36: Where was this connection of the Broadway-Brooklyn line (J,Z) to the old Bay Ridge Branch of the LIRR? Are you referring to the massive complex at Atlantic Avenue on the L line, where the old Pitkin Avenue el use to turn from Fulton Street stop at the massive Atlantic Avenue station, and continue its journey along Pitkin Ave. to the then-city line? Just curious...
        
        Subject: Re: Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails
        Message Number: 762285
        Posted by: Joshua Caesar
        Date: Mon Jan 26 10:29:41 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails posted by Larry Littlefield on January 20, 1998 at 12:47:35: That must be a pretty cool sight. I know this one spot on the Delaware ( I can't remember the name, it is a bit upstream from Mattamoras, and another river flows in right there) where there is a huge retaining wall in the mountain, right against the river. If you go to the shore of the beach on the other side of the river, you can watch trains as they go by, all the way on top of that big old wall. It is kinda neat. I guess I have strayed a little bit off topic for Subtalk, hope no one will hold it against me. Josh Caesar
        
        Subject: Re: Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails
        Message Number: 762287
        Posted by: Peter Rosa
        Date: Mon Jan 26 10:29:45 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails posted by Daniel on January 20, 1998 at 20:48:12: The connection actually was from the L, between Broadway Junction and Canarsie. It's been only partially removed and probably could be reactivated with a relatively minor amount of effort.
        
        Subject: Re: Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails
        Message Number: 762290
        Posted by: Mellow One
        Date: Mon Jan 26 10:29:54 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails posted by David McCabe on January 18, 1998 at 20:20:24: There were a couple of ancient connections with the NY Els. One was the connection between the New York & Northern at 155th St at the Polo Grounds. The Other was the ramp from the 3rd Ave El to the NYNY&H Harlem River terminal in the Bronx. Moving forward in time, there was the joint LIRR/BRT operation to Rockaway. The IRT Dyre Ave line was connected to the NYNY&H on the former NYW&B row.
        
        Subject: Re: Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails
        Message Number: 762300
        Posted by: Lefty
        Date: Mon Jan 26 10:31:04 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails posted by Joshua Caesar on January 20, 1998 at 22:00:17: strangely enough i know exactly what youre talking about.. right across from that huge retaining wall there is a summer camp called "Tel Yehuda" where i went for 5 years.. always during the activities i would watch trains pass by (they were very frequent, good for a railfan).. the best thing about the camp was that when you are at the oldest age in the camp (17) you live in a bunk called HillHouse, because its at the highest elevation in the camp, and being so, has the best view of the tracks across the delaware! i loved living there..
        
        Subject: Re: Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails
        Message Number: 762317
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Mon Jan 26 10:31:43 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails posted by David McCabe on January 18, 1998 at 20:20:24: You have probably picked this up from the other earlier follow-ups below, but most car deliveries over the years have been by car-float. BMT cars were delivered to Bush Terminal, and from there got on system by perhaps several connections to the industrial railroads mentioned. As I recall, IND cars before 1940 went by float to the IND yard which is visible between the Broadway El and the Haarlem River; you could still see the apron lowering structure in place in the 60's. I have no info on original IRT deliveries, but suspect that any number of connections to then existing railroads could have been put in temporarily, including to the manhattan Els.
        
        Subject: Re: Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails
        Message Number: 762328
        Posted by: Lefty
        Date: Mon Jan 26 10:32:21 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails posted by Gary Jacobi on January 21, 1998 at 16:05:32: cars may have been delivered to the IRT through that same IND yard because there is a track that goes from it up to the elevated 1 train. you can see this connection right at the north end of the 207th st station.
        
        Subject: Re: Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails
        Message Number: 762329
        Posted by: Dan Schwartz
        Date: Mon Jan 26 10:32:24 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails posted by Lefty on January 21, 1998 at 20:28:07: > cars may have been delivered to the IRT through that same IND yard > because there is a track that goes from it up to the elevated 1 train. you > can see this connection right at the north end of the 207th st station. That connection of the Broadway elevated line to the 207th St. yard is quite recent; I saw it being put up, sometime in the 1980's I'm pretty sure, I don't recall the exact year. So it couldn't have been used for deliveries of IRT cars. (Well, perhaps some of the R62(a)'s, but no, that wouldn't be possible either, since the facilities for receiving the cars by water are supposed to have been removed in the 1960's, well before that ramp was built).
        
        Subject: Re: Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails
        Message Number: 762330
        Posted by: Peter Dougherty
        Date: Mon Jan 26 10:32:26 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails posted by Dan Schwartz on January 22, 1998 at 10:37:10: >> cars may have been delivered to the IRT through that same IND yard > because there is a track that goes from it up to the elevated 1 train. you > can see this connection right at the north end of the 207th st station. >That connection of the Broadway elevated line to the 207th St. yard is quite recent; I saw it being put up, sometime in the 1980's I'm pretty sure, I don't recall the exact year. My signal books from 1986 show no reference to this ramp either, so it must have been late '80s as best. It does show the abandoned ramp in the 207th St. yard, however.
        
        Subject: Re: Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails
        Message Number: 762331
        Posted by: Peter Dougherty
        Date: Mon Jan 26 10:32:29 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails posted by David McCabe on January 18, 1998 at 20:20:24: [This question was inspired by the very cool track maps on this site!] First off, thank you very much for your kind comments on my track maps; they're very much appreciated. What connections exist or did exist between the subways and outside railroads? Are there any outside of Brooklyn? >>I am particularly interested in the connections in the vicinity of the 9th avenue stop on the Culver line. The maps show an existing connection between the NY Cross Harbor RR and the subway track. Does this in fact exist? If so, is it used, and what for? If not, what was it used for in the past? To answer your question, I will refer you to the printed book version of these same maps which are available either directly from me or through rail and hobby shops in the NYC area. I have actively traced all the tracks around the areas you refer to, and have published the results. I have also conferred with Bruce Crawford of New York Regional Rail, the company operating the NYCH today. Essentially, here's the scoop on routing. Assuming a work train starts off in the 36-38th St. yard, it enters the "B" tracks on signals on track D2. Just before the portal to the 4th Ave line, it would use the single crossover across to D1 track, then through the turnout continuing on either D1 or D2 track into the lower yard. NOTE: The home signals and interlocking here also control a derail on both D1 and D2 tracks! Continuing past this point, the equipment must be diesel as there is no 3rd rail at this point. The lower yard has 4 tracks, one of which has a dilapidated loading ramp in the middle of it. D2 track continues through this yard, and crosses 3rd Avenue. This area is at the southeast corner of 3rd Av and 38th St. It passes south of Costco (on 100# rail, I might add--maybe 130, but at least 100), and then on a diagonal into a fenced off area right at the off-ramp from the Gowanus, and just above 39 St. Two possibilities exist here: 1) continue into the fenced off area about 1,000 feet back into the 39th St. yard, or the dead yard. this is the last resting place of cars before they go to scrap in NJ. 2), after clearing the switch (located in the middle of 2nd Av), the switch is thrown and the movement is reversed south onto 2nd Ave. Continuing south on 2nd Av, it goes west on 41st, south on 1st Av and then into the NYRR yard at 43rd. From there, material/junk cars, etc are transferred to barges and floated off to NJ and Conrail. MoW materials in and scrap rolling stock out are the main users of this connection today. >How about the famous South Brooklyn Railway? (connects on the east side of the 9th Ave. stop). The map detail mentions garbage platforms. That's about all that's left of the once-proud SBkRR. Two tail tracks just south of 37th St., going as far east as Fort Hamilton Parkway. East of there you can see a new housing development where the Culver shuttle once stood, and under which the South Brooklyn once ran. >Is this where all the garbage from the system ends up? Not all of it, no, but certainly much of the Brooklyn lines' tash does. The garbage train is now the only thing which sees the lower level of 9th Av. now. >the "Linden Wye" presumably is used for access to the Linden Shops. But if this track is not electrified, what are it and the Linden Shops used for? Exclusively MOW equipment? Just that; Linden Iron Shop.
        
        Subject: Re: Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails
        Message Number: 762333
        Posted by: Ed Sachs
        Date: Mon Jan 26 10:32:36 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails posted by Dan Schwartz on January 22, 1998 at 10:37:10: Weren't early !RT deliveries to the yards at 148 St and the Harlem River (north end of #3 line)?

Thread title: 2 Questions On Rail And Equipment (762217)
Started on Fri Jan 23 09:53:20 1998, by GarfieldA

Subject: 2 Questions On Rail And Equipment
Message Number: 762217
Posted by: GarfieldA
Date: Fri Jan 23 09:53:20 1998

I was told by someone that when a subway car does excessive swaying from side to side while in motion, it is due to to old and poor track and rail conditions. Is this true. The second. How long do wheels and nearby mechanisms that are ajacent to them are replaced. Usually while riding a train, you might hear crashing, scraping very loud noises when the motorman operates the train at high speeds while going through curves on the line.
- Subject: Re: 2 Questions On Rail And Equipment
- Message Number: 762218
- Posted by: Steve
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:53:22 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]2 Questions On Rail And Equipment posted by GarfieldA on January 18, 1998 at 22:43:21: Could be track or it could be the car. On the car it could be any of the following: Vertical Shock Absorbers Lateral Shock Broken or weak springs on the truck (Bolster or Equalizer) A shifted bolster or spring plank As for wheels etc., on NYCT equipment, under normal circumstances, wheels & truck equipment have an expected life of 6 years.
  - Subject: Re: 2 Questions On Rail And Equipment
  - Message Number: 762310
  - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
  - Date: Mon Jan 26 10:31:25 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]2 Questions On Rail And Equipment posted by GarfieldA on January 18, 1998 at 22:43:21: The type of motion you describe is officially called "hunting", and can eventually be quite damaging to running gear. It usually requires underguage wheelsets and/or overguage track to get started. Both measurements need to be maintained, as normal tendencies are to spread track guage and reduce the distance between wheels. The old (pre 1960) IRT cars were notorious for hideous noise caused by slamming of hunting flanges against the running rails at speed. Flanges are supposed to be a backup device; the slope of the wheel is supposed to keep the truck centered on the track without flange to rail contact. Thus broken flanges are an indication of lack of track maintenance in general. It would be interesting to see if records of broken flange rates are kept for years past.

Thread title: London Underground Signs (762224)
Started on Mon Jan 26 10:27:03 1998, by Nathan

Subject: London Underground Signs
Message Number: 762224
Posted by: Nathan
Date: Mon Jan 26 10:27:03 1998

Ok, I have a problem. I have been trying to get my hands on a London Underground station sign for AGES. I recently contacted London Transport and they told me that surplus signs are AUCTIONED off. Does anyone have any for sale? Any info on where I might be able to get one would be greatly appreciated. -Nathan
- Subject: Re: London Underground Signs
- Message Number: 762237
- Posted by: steve L
- Date: Mon Jan 26 10:27:38 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]London Underground Signs posted by Nathan on January 19, 1998 at 02:39:09: did you contact the London Underground Railway Society
  - Subject: Re: London Underground Signs
  - Message Number: 762241
  - Posted by: David Pirmann
  - Date: Mon Jan 26 10:27:49 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]London Underground Signs posted by Nathan on January 19, 1998 at 02:39:09: The London Transport Museum sells reproductions of the signs. I have one right here. They have small ones and large ones. It's a steel plate with enamled front. Mine is just the Underground roundel but they also had ones with station names. The back of the sign has a sticker that says: This is manufactured in the same materials as the full size Underground plates supplied to London Transport by GARNIER & Co. Ltd., 37 Strode Rd. London, NW10 2NP. Tel 0181-459-0152 Hope that helps.

Thread title: Subway Crime Scandal (762227)
Started on Mon Jan 26 10:27:11 1998, by Subman23

Subject: Subway Crime Scandal
Message Number: 762227
Posted by: Subman23
Date: Mon Jan 26 10:27:11 1998

Below listed taken from New York Post (1/19/98) NEWS SUBWAY-CRIME SHOCKER By MURRAY WEISS - Criminal Justice Editor ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -- The top NYPD Transit cop is accused of knowing subway crime was being underreported - and ordering his commanders to ignore the problem, The Post has learned. Several Transit police officials have told Internal Affairs Division investigators that the bureau's chief, Kenneth Donohue, knew subway crime statistics were being undercounted and told them "not to worry" or "correct" the way figures were gathered. "That is absolutely absurd," the 52-year-old Donohue told The Post. He insisted that he and his own inspection team discovered the NYPD had been systematically underestimating subway crime by about 20 percent each year, perhaps as far back as the 1960s. "I was the one who discovered the discrepancy and brought it to the attention of the (commissioner's office)," the 33-year veteran Transit cop maintained. Donohue said he could "only speculate" that supervisors working underk him were making allegations against him to deflect blame. "Perhaps people are grinding an ax or afraid of getting into trouble themselves," he said, adding that he will fight any allegations. "If this allegation can be proven, then I should be fired and I should have never had the position I have," Donohue said. If he were fired, it would jeopardize his pension. Police Commissioner Howard Safir recently revealed underreporting had gone on for as long as three decades. Safir credited the startling undercount to straphangers victimized on the subways who reported incidents later to local precincts rather than to Transit cops. Those crimes - while recorded in the city's overall statistics - were not always reported back to the Transit division. The scandal unfolded several months ago, when allegations surfaced that Inspector Vincent DeMarino, a protege of Donohue's, was aware of the undercount when DeMarino ran District One in Manhattan and did nothing about it. DeMarino, who is the only officer charged thus far in the scandal, defended himself, sources say, by telling the IAB he had told Donohue of the discrepancies and was told to "turn the other cheek" and "forget about it." In addition to DeMarino, IAB has grilled other present and former Transit commanders. A number have allegedly pointed the finger at Donohue. "The allegations are patently untrue," Donohue said. In fact, he said, "If any of the commanders knew there was something wrong and I found out ... I would have locked them up myself." Donohue, who commands both the NYPD's Transit and Traffic divisions, insisted that for years, he repeatedly warned his commanders never to fudge crime statistics. "I must have told people 100 times, "Do not play around with crime statistics. The worst thing you can do for your career is to mess around with crime statistics.'" NYPD officials declined comment, citing the ongoing internal investigation, but insiders say the department's top brass hope Chief Donohue, who is on sick leave, will quietly retire - to avoid possible departmental charges. But Donohue won't go quietly. "I am not going to put my tail between my legs and run," he declared. "I am too proud of what I have done, and I will fight tooth and nail."
- Subject: Re: Subway Crime Scandal
- Message Number: 762242
- Posted by: Peter Rosa
- Date: Mon Jan 26 10:27:53 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Subway Crime Scandal posted by Subman23 on January 19, 1998 at 07:50:47: There could be a bright side to all this ... or at least a not-completely-dark side. If subway crime statistics have been lowballed consistently for the past 20 or so years, then the much-publicized recent drop in subway crime rates really did occur even though the actual crime numbers (both now and then) are/were higher than originally believed. In addition, there probably is some reason for honest disagreement in deciding whether to classify an incident as a subway crime. Some cases are clear cut, for example a person attacked while waiying on the platform. But consider, for example, a rider followed out of the subway and attacked on the street, away from the crowds (I suspect this isn't a wholly uncommon scenario). Should that be classified as a subway crime? Reasonable minds may differ.

Thread title: HORRORS!!! (762228)
Started on Mon Jan 26 10:27:14 1998, by Charles Fiori

Subject: HORRORS!!!
Message Number: 762228
Posted by: Charles Fiori
Date: Mon Jan 26 10:27:14 1998

Sorry to break it to you guys and gals, but today's NY Daily News has a story about 2 gents who are starting this morning on an effort to break the record for riding to all stations. Daily News on-line is "www.mostnewyork.com" and it is the City Central section.

Thread title: Oh no!! Re: HORRORS!!! (762243)
Started on Mon Jan 26 10:27:56 1998, by Mark S Feinman

Subject: Oh no!! Re: HORRORS!!!
Message Number: 762243
Posted by: Mark S Feinman
Date: Mon Jan 26 10:27:56 1998

In Reply to: [8]HORRORS!!! posted by Charles Fiori on January 19, 1998 at 08:30:15: [9]Here's the (gasp!) article. --Mark
- Subject: Re: Oh no!! Re: HORRORS!!!
- Message Number: 762244
- Posted by: Peter Rosa
- Date: Mon Jan 26 10:27:59 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Oh no!! Re: HORRORS!!! posted by Mark S Feinman on January 19, 1998 at 14:33:58: Dunno. The article doesn't quite say that these two plan to ride the entire system on a single fare each, so even if they break the record it might not count. Besides, let's assume the worst and say that these people set a new record ... there'll just be a new record to break.
  - Subject: Re: Oh no!! Re: HORRORS!!!
  - Message Number: 762246
  - Posted by: subway-buff
  - Date: Mon Jan 26 10:28:11 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Oh no!! Re: HORRORS!!! posted by Peter Rosa on January 19, 1998 at 15:00:33: Let's assume they break the old record. . We can break their record. if they don't we can learn from their problems. **and overcome** Thanks for the update (written as official clerk of *our* subway derby
    - Subject: Re: Oh no!! Re: HORRORS!!!
    - Message Number: 762247
    - Posted by: Bob Andersen
    - Date: Mon Jan 26 10:28:13 1998
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: Oh no!! Re: HORRORS!!! posted by Peter Rosa on January 19, 1998 at 15:00:33: I have a question about setting the record. Do you have to actually stop at every station, or is it sufficient just to go through every station on an express, where possible
      - Subject: Re: Oh no!! Re: HORRORS!!!
      - Message Number: 762254
      - Posted by: Joe M
      - Date: Mon Jan 26 10:28:28 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Oh no!! Re: HORRORS!!! posted by subway-buff on January 19, 1998 at 18:54:54: They sound like amatures. I don't think they stand a chance against the likes of all or you. You are right though learn from their mistakes and go for the gold!! Good luck to you all.
        
        Subject: Re: Oh no!! Re: HORRORS!!!
        Message Number: 762257
        Posted by: Adam
        Date: Mon Jan 26 10:28:34 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Oh no!! Re: HORRORS!!! posted by Joe M on January 19, 1998 at 23:34:12: Thanks! I don't think that we have anything to worry about! We can beat any record those guys make, if any!
        
        Subject: Re: Oh no!! Re: HORRORS!!!
        Message Number: 762277
        Posted by: Nick
        Date: Mon Jan 26 10:29:23 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Oh no!! Re: HORRORS!!! posted by Adam on January 20, 1998 at 01:32:48: Don't worry about a thing, guys (and gals). We can definitly beat any record set, 'cause we will be well prepared, and get the job done right. I wonder if these 2 fellows stole our idea from visiting Subtalk. By the way, it is crucial that we stop at every station...going through it on an express does not count.-Nick
        
        Subject: Re: Oh no!! Re: HORRORS!!!
        Message Number: 762281
        Posted by: Joshua Caesar
        Date: Mon Jan 26 10:29:30 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Oh no!! Re: HORRORS!!! posted by Nick on January 20, 1998 at 18:04:15: Since each station must be stopped at, and going through on the express does not count, does the express then need to be taken aswell? For example, if a G or R was taken from Queens Plaza to Continental Avenue, would an express train also need to ridden over that route? Joshua Caesar
        
        Subject: Re: Oh no!! Re: HORRORS!!!
        Message Number: 762309
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Mon Jan 26 10:31:22 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Oh no!! Re: HORRORS!!! posted by subway-buff on January 19, 1998 at 18:54:54: Good attitude! One would think that the recent overpromotion of the abortive 'round the world hot air baloon adventurers would discourage advance publicity seekers! Don't make the same mistake yourselves; wait until you succeed to publish your accomplishments, including, if necessary, that the old record is unassailable under present schedules and routes. There is no shame in that, if it was a well planned try!

Thread title: Re: Is it true that NYCT might add a new bus route between the College of SI (762245)
Started on Mon Jan 26 10:28:04 1998, by .

Subject: Re: Is it true that NYCT might add a new bus route between the College of SI
Message Number: 762245
Posted by: .
Date: Mon Jan 26 10:28:04 1998
- Subject: Re: Is it true that NYCT might add a new bus route between the College of SI
- Message Number: 762305
- Posted by: .
- Date: Mon Jan 26 10:31:14 1998

Thread title: Wooden Platforms (Was:Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms) (762248)
Started on Mon Jan 26 10:28:15 1998, by subway-buff

Subject: Wooden Platforms (Was:Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms)
Message Number: 762248
Posted by: subway-buff
Date: Mon Jan 26 10:28:15 1998

In Reply to: [8]Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms posted by Andrew Huie on January 17, 1998 at 17:59:35: park Place is mostly plywood over bad wood. Franklin is concrete and the closed section of Botanic Garden is decayed wood- you can see through the platform(The open section is concrete). Dean Street(closed) is all wood

Thread title: read this for lotsa info bout the R142 (762252)
Started on Mon Jan 26 10:28:24 1998, by Lefty

Subject: read this for lotsa info bout the R142
Message Number: 762252
Posted by: Lefty
Date: Mon Jan 26 10:28:24 1998

thought i'd share these specifications about the new r142 with everyone.. theyre available at the Bombardier website.. General Data Type of vehicle R142 Rapid Transit Car Owner MTA / NEW YORK CITY TRANSIT (MTA / NYCT) Date of order 1997 Quantity ordered 680 cars Train configuration A: cab car (full width cab) two motorised bogies B: non cab car one motorised bogie Base unit: A-B-B-B-A Base train: A-B-B-B-A - A-B-B-B-A Other train make-ups: 6 cars (1 unit) 9 cars (2 units) 11 cars (2 units) Technical Characteristics Nominal line voltage 600 Vdc AC traction motor, 150 hp (112 kW) continuous rating, IGBT inverters Stainless steel carbody Outboard bearing, welded steel frame bogie Dynamic braking with regeneration and pneumatic friction brake system, electronically controlled Dimensions and Weight Length over coupler faces 15,650 mm / 51' 4" Width over side sheets 2,670 mm / 8' 9" Doorway width (side - clear opening) 1,372 mm / 4' 6" Wheel diameter 864 mm / 34" Track gauge 1,435 mm / 4' 8 1/2" Average unit car weight (empty) 31,750 kg / 70,000 lb Performance and Capacity Maximum design speed 100 km/h / 62 mph Seated passengers A car: 34 B car: 40 Standees A car: 148 B car: 142
- Subject: Re: read this for lotsa info bout the R142
- Message Number: 762260
- Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
- Date: Mon Jan 26 10:28:39 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]read this for lotsa info bout the R142 posted by Lefty on January 19, 1998 at 23:19:24: Oooo... that's the IRT order, right??? Is anyone here _NOT_ surprised by _outboard_ bearings??
  - Subject: Re: read this for lotsa info bout the R142
  - Message Number: 762279
  - Posted by: Allan
  - Date: Mon Jan 26 10:29:27 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]read this for lotsa info bout the R142 posted by Lefty on January 19, 1998 at 23:19:24: Please provide the URL for the Bombardier Website
    - Subject: Re: read this for lotsa info bout the R142
    - Message Number: 762280
    - Posted by: wsteil
    - Date: Mon Jan 26 10:29:28 1998
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: read this for lotsa info bout the R142 posted by Allan on January 20, 1998 at 19:17:21: http://www.Bombardier.com
      - Subject: Re: read this for lotsa info bout the R142
      - Message Number: 762282
      - Posted by: David Pirmann
      - Date: Mon Jan 26 10:29:32 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]read this for lotsa info bout the R142 posted by Lefty on January 19, 1998 at 23:19:24: I posted this text into a new R142 page, [9]http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/r142.html. P.S. what's an outboard bearing? -Dave
        
        Subject: Re: read this for lotsa info bout the R142
        Message Number: 762292
        Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
        Date: Mon Jan 26 10:30:05 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: read this for lotsa info bout the R142 posted by David Pirmann on January 20, 1998 at 20:11:09: In other words, the axle is supported outside the wheel, like current subway stuff. Inboard bearings have the axle's bearings inside (between the wheels). Check out any recent NJT, Metro-North, LIRR, Septic, etc stuff. The big advantage (besides sexier looks), is supposed lighter weight, and I'm assuming that includes unsprung weight too. They have been tested on the subway, and R-46 had them, but they don't seem to hold up well in NY's system. I'm sure you've at least heard of the R-46's problems. I think GSI-70s, Pioneer, and one or two others were tested. The LIRR / Metro-North use Pioneer III trucks on their MUs, BTW. I think Septa and NJT do too..
        
        Subject: Re: read this for lotsa info bout the R142
        Message Number: 762565
        Posted by: Andrew Huie
        Date: Fri Jan 30 14:21:49 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: read this for lotsa info bout the R142 posted by Philip Nasadowski on January 21, 1998 at 00:50:13: Pioneer III? Weren't those the trucks tested on a train of R32's early on? Did they prove unreliable, and if so, why then does the LIRR and MNRR use them?

Thread title: Re: London Underground Signs (Stupid Me!) (762259)
Started on Mon Jan 26 10:28:37 1998, by Nathan

Subject: Re: London Underground Signs (Stupid Me!)
Message Number: 762259
Posted by: Nathan
Date: Mon Jan 26 10:28:37 1998

In Reply to: [7]Re: London Underground Signs posted by David Pirmann on January 19, 1998 at 13:14:30: Oh my god- I have one of those mini signs too but never bothered checking the back... Thanx!

Thread title: Re: London Underground Signs: Over-the-Door line maps (762267)
Started on Mon Jan 26 10:28:58 1998, by Carl M. Rabbin

Subject: Re: London Underground Signs: Over-the-Door line maps
Message Number: 762267
Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
Date: Mon Jan 26 10:28:58 1998

In Reply to: [7]London Underground Signs posted by Nathan on January 19, 1998 at 02:39:09: In 1980 when I was in London, the Underground shop at Covent Garden was selling the strip map that would be posted over the train door for the Bakerloo line. Why? Because the Jubilee Line had opened a year before replacing half the Bakerloo route, so the old Bakerloo maps were obsolete, and they had extra maps for that old routing. The maps were about 4 inches wide and 4 feet long. Anyway, the now 20-year old Jubilee line is to be extended in October, and maybe extra obsolete Jubilee line maps will be available for sale one year from now. I once had the strip map for the #7 Flushing line that they put over the doors during the World's Fair. But I had it in the trunk of my car for a while when I was moving and it was raining and it got soaked and shredded. (Can you believe that that happened to me in 1975 and I haven't forgotten it?)

Thread title: Re: Connections South Brooklyn Railway (762268)
Started on Mon Jan 26 10:29:00 1998, by Carl M. Rabbin

Subject: Re: Connections South Brooklyn Railway
Message Number: 762268
Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
Date: Mon Jan 26 10:29:00 1998

In Reply to: [7]Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails posted by David McCabe on January 18, 1998 at 20:20:24: The South Brooklyn Railway, I believe, used to run (or maybe still does run) from 9th Avenue under the old Culver line next to 37th St. to McDonald Avenue then in the center of McDonald Avenue all the way down to Coney Island. It was used so seldom that the men in my neighborhood played bocci ball using the tracks as borders for the playing area (the 37 St. section just before the turn to McDonald Avenue). The McDonald Avenue tracks were definitely for freight railroad cars, not trolleys, because while trolley rails in streets have the outside side with a flat metal extension and the inside side not having the flat extensio, the McDonald Avenue tracks had a flat extension on both sides. (I don't know why since the flange goes in the groove and the wheel rests on the outside only, anyway.) Driving on McDonald Avenue was not easy: the elevated railroad was above with the pillars between the right and center lanes on both sides. It was hard, especially on rainy days, to drive easily alongside the pillars because the slippery railroad tracks were right where you wanted to put the wheels. I don't know if those tracks are still there, since I don't get to McDonald Avenue in Brooklyn that much anymore. But if they are still there and if you want to give yourself a headache, try to drive more than 3 avenues with the pillars and tracks, then see if you don't need a couple of Advils quick.
- Subject: Re: Connections South Brooklyn Railway
- Message Number: 762274
- Posted by: Peter Rosa
- Date: Mon Jan 26 10:29:14 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Re: Connections South Brooklyn Railway posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 20, 1998 at 12:08:27: Fortunately (or _un_fortunately, depending on whether one's perspective is that of a driver or rail fan), the tracks on McDonald Avenue have faded off into the annals of history.
  - Subject: Re: Connections South Brooklyn Railway
  - Message Number: 762296
  - Posted by: si2000
  - Date: Mon Jan 26 10:30:44 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Connections South Brooklyn Railway posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 20, 1998 at 12:08:27: The SBRWY stopped using the tracks in early 1978. For some reason the tracks remained even after McDonald Avenue was re-constructed later that year, with the tracks at the LIRR overpass near Elmwood Avenue being removed as part of the project. The tracks were finally paved over in 1991(?). You can still see the one track coming out of the LIRR cut at Avenue I, a remnant of a junction which I remember being used to deliver the R46s back in 1975, along McDonlad Avenue to Avenue X.

Thread title: Rare Trip Across Hammel's Wye (762275)
Started on Mon Jan 26 10:29:18 1998, by Todd Glickman

Subject: Rare Trip Across Hammel's Wye
Message Number: 762275
Posted by: Todd Glickman
Date: Mon Jan 26 10:29:18 1998

Reading [8]NYC Transit Subway Service Notices it appears as though one can have a rare trip across Hammel's Wye on the Rockaways: Rockaway Park Shuttle not running to/from Broad Channel Weekend, 10 am to 6 pm Sun, Jan 25. For Manhattan service, take the S to Beach 67 St and transfer to the A. For service to Rockaway Park, take the A to Beach 67 St and transfer to the S. By the way, I am planning to take the Transit Museum's tour of "Day One on the IRT" (no connection to the above Hammel's Wye!) this Saturday (weather permitting!). Are any other SubTalkers going to be there? -Todd
- Subject: Re: Rare Trip Across Hammel's Wye
- Message Number: 762295
- Posted by: aaron
- Date: Mon Jan 26 10:30:41 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Rare Trip Across Hammel's Wye posted by Todd Glickman on January 20, 1998 at 15:16:56: If you take the trip who is going to do the weekend weather on WCBS?
  - Subject: Re: Rare Trip Across Hammel's Wye
  - Message Number: 762297
  - Posted by: Todd Glickman
  - Date: Mon Jan 26 10:30:51 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Rare Trip Across Hammel's Wye posted by aaron on January 21, 1998 at 08:53:24: If the weather is good, I can leave tapes that play during the trip. Otherwise, I might be able to get one of my colleagues to fill in for a few hours. Here's a broadcating secret: If you hear me give the current temperature, I'm "live." If you hear the news anchor give the current temperature, I'm "on tape." Sometimes I can leave WCBS (of course by the E/F at 53rd/5th and go to the Q33 at Roosevelt, to LGA, then to BOS via Shuttle, and then MBTA blue and green lines to get my car and STILL hear my tapes via long distance :-) And THAT'S traffic and weather together.... Todd
    - Subject: Re: Rare Trip Across Hammel's Wye
    - Message Number: 762301
    - Posted by: Lou from Brooklyn
    - Date: Mon Jan 26 10:31:06 1998
      
      In Reply to: [7]Rare Trip Across Hammel's Wye posted by Todd Glickman on January 20, 1998 at 15:16:56: Just yesterday I took a trip out to Rockaway Park, first time in years on the A train in Queens. I didn't get a headend ride since all I had was R44's (not enough time to wait for a set of the older ones). I love riding over the water. Watched a dual parallel landing of a 747 and 767 at JFK, sure was pretty. Saw the wye, don't know if I can make it out there next weekend...
      - Subject: Re: Rare Trip Across Hammel's Wye
      - Message Number: 762315
      - Posted by: aaron
      - Date: Mon Jan 26 10:31:38 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Rare Trip Across Hammel's Wye posted by Todd Glickman on January 21, 1998 at 09:08:32: Your picture looks great, www.newsradio88.com!
        
        Subject: Re: Rare Trip Across Hammel's Wye
        Message Number: 762316
        Posted by: Todd Glickman
        Date: Mon Jan 26 10:31:40 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Rare Trip Across Hammel's Wye posted by aaron on January 21, 1998 at 13:58:43: Well if you must, you can see it directly at [9]WCBS People Behind the Microphone. Then you can click on my name on that page and go to my REAL Home Page, where of course I have a link to 'nycsubway.org'. -Todd
        
        Subject: Re: Rare Trip Across Hammel's Wye
        Message Number: 762318
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Mon Jan 26 10:31:47 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Rare Trip Across Hammel's Wye posted by Todd Glickman on January 21, 1998 at 14:13:48: I've always wondered, but now that I have seen your picture, I must ask if you are related to the inimitable Marty Glickman, radio voice of the NY Giants. I don't know why I called him inimitable, 'cause I used to imitate him all the time!
        
        Subject: Re: Rare Trip Across Hammel's Wye
        Message Number: 762326
        Posted by: Todd Glickman
        Date: Mon Jan 26 10:32:16 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Rare Trip Across Hammel's Wye posted by Gary Jacobi on January 21, 1998 at 16:46:18: Nope, I've met Marty, and we're not related. Nor am I related to Agriculture Secretary Dan Glickman. My grandfather's name was Arthur Glickman, of Ocean Parkway in Brooklyn, who took the subway to work every day for 55 years. And he took me for rides to my heart's content when I was young :-)

Thread title: 1 Train (762278)
Started on Mon Jan 26 10:29:25 1998, by subway-buff

Subject: 1 Train
Message Number: 762278
Posted by: subway-buff
Date: Mon Jan 26 10:29:25 1998

I have now been given the go ahead by Dave to do the 1 train. ANy info, pictures, etc. would be appreciated. I will cover all stops, local and express from South Ferry (inner and outer) to VCP, and omit Lenox. I also will do the balance of Lex- covering Local stops from BB to 116. (125 is covered in Express. Stops after 125 will be the Pelham person's )

Thread title: Re: memorabilia (762286)
Started on Mon Jan 26 10:29:43 1998, by Bootsy

Subject: Re: memorabilia
Message Number: 762286
Posted by: Bootsy
Date: Mon Jan 26 10:29:43 1998

In Reply to: [7]memorabilia posted by tom vicinanza on January 20, 1998 at 19:56:22: Right now, I am looking for old Public Service bus timetables, and photographs of NJ Transit GMC Fishbowls and Flxible New Looks. Any ideas on where I might be able to find these things?
- Subject: Re: memorabilia
- Message Number: 762291
- Posted by: Adam
- Date: Mon Jan 26 10:29:57 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]memorabilia posted by tom vicinanza on January 20, 1998 at 19:56:22: Do you know where to get stuff? I am interested in buying signs from the subway. I would also recommend that you check TransitAds, a site that is devoted to the buying and selling and trading of transit-related items. I forgot the URL but it's linked from this site.
  - Subject: memorabilia
  - Message Number: 762336
  - Posted by: tom vicinanza
  - Date: Mon Jan 26 12:28:57 1998
    
    Anyone into collecting of subway / NYC transmit memorabilia? Would like to chat about items which may be around. Tom
    - Subject: Re: memorabilia
    - Message Number: 762348
    - Posted by: tom vicinanza
    - Date: Mon Jan 26 12:29:36 1998
      
      In Reply to: [7]memorabilia posted by tom vicinanza on January 20, 1998 at 19:56:22: I myself am interested in finding a few items. Its amazing how scarce something so common is. There have had to be a million various signs of all kinds removed or replaced over all the years and they had to wind up somewhere. Ive talked to relatives who work within and they dont even know where the stuff goes. I have an enamel sign that was removed from under Radio City Music Hall, D line, 50th street. A large porcelian on steel "NO SMOKING NO SPITTING" and it goes on to quote the law at the time. Fine shape. You can see a glimpse of it in the movie "Fatal Attraction" when the stars are decending into the subway at 6th ave and 49th street right next to radio city. I also recently obtianed a "TA" operators badge. Thats about all I have. 2 pieces. I would be interested in other signs, from particular stations. With all the modernization, this stuff has got to be stock piled some place. I wasnt there for the "tag sale", that must have been interesting. Being an ex-new yorker and avid subway lover I find this to be an interesting page. I hope to read often. I've seen "transit ads" but there isnt much there of interest to me. I read a comment earlier posted that the TA Museum in Brooklyn used to sell the roll signs. I guess thats before they realized supply/demand possibilities. I collect other NYC related items too. Looking for those little signs on everyone's fire escape in apartment buidings. Right in front of your face as you look out the window. "Anyone Placing Any Encumbrance On This Balcony Will Be Fined Five Dollars" or some wording to that effect. See one? I buy em!. Good luck on the quest for subway related memorabillia. It seems to be rare to find it available anywhere right now. Someday??? Tom
      - Subject: Re: memorabilia
      - Message Number: 762386
      - Posted by: Charles Fiori
      - Date: Mon Jan 26 12:31:53 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: memorabilia posted by tom vicinanza on January 21, 1998 at 14:09:57: If it is roll signs you want, I am your man. I got a great sign for the NY World's Fair, a directional sign from the side of an Expressway or something. I have a few station signs, but most of what I have is subway and bus roll signs.
        
        Subject: Re: memorabilia
        Message Number: 762452
        Posted by: Steve B
        Date: Mon Jan 26 12:35:04 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: memorabilia posted by Charles Fiori on January 22, 1998 at 10:09:32: How are you on bulkhead destination roll signs? I have such a sign, complete with roller mechanism, from an R-1/9. It has most of the familiar IND terminals; however "Coney Island" is painted over! Sacrilege! I've tried turpentine, paint remover, you name it, but to no avail. If you have a similar IND roller curtain, I'd be definitely interested. BMT bulkhead signs would be cool, too. Thanks!

Thread title: Strip maps (762294)
Started on Mon Jan 26 10:30:35 1998, by Charles Fiori

Subject: Strip maps
Message Number: 762294
Posted by: Charles Fiori
Date: Mon Jan 26 10:30:35 1998

In Reply to: [7]Re: London Underground Signs: Over-the-Door line maps posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 20, 1998 at 11:54:14: Carl, I hit the store, too, when I was in London in 1982. My wife, in a moment of weakness, had some of the strip maps foam-backed so they would display nicely. I have one copy each from the orange "7" strip map, as well as the purple one. They are not in the best of shape, but not too bad.

Thread title: Re: extension of the 7 west and south (762298)
Started on Mon Jan 26 10:30:57 1998, by Carl M. Rabbin

Subject: Re: extension of the 7 west and south
Message Number: 762298
Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
Date: Mon Jan 26 10:30:57 1998

In Reply to: [7]Re: extension of the S or 7 westward posted by Chris C on January 20, 1998 at 17:29:33: That is a really great idea. Too bad I don't work for the MTA. Not only would it connect with the Javits Center and with the apartment buildings in Chelsea, but it would provide service to all the hotels along 42 St west of 8th Avenue that tourists stay at because they have famous hotel chain names, then discover that 1) you always have to take a bus or taxi to get anywhere, and 2)it's too devoid of crowds to want stand in the street and do just that. Also it would get people closer to the "Intrepid" museum and the Circle Boat line. And the construction would be where there are fewer buildling anyway. The negatives are 1) it might be too close to the water and the tunnels would have to be under 10th Avenue and be quite low down. 2)it would have to go under the Lincoln Tunnel. I say "Do it." :-)
- Subject: Re: extension of the 7 west and south
- Message Number: 762302
- Posted by: Chris C.
- Date: Mon Jan 26 10:31:08 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]Re: extension of the 7 west and south posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 21, 1998 at 09:41:50: It might be a problem crossing the Penn lines, but there might also be an advantage. There is already a cut between 9th and 10th Aves where the old New York Central Ran. I believe that Amtrac uses some of the tracks now, but there is lots of room. Quasi-elevated tracks could cross the Penn Train yards behind Madison Square Garden. What if this was used to send the #7 down to Batery Park City and at the same time send the L, on the opposite platform up the cut to 42nd, 59th, 72nd and express under Riverside park to 125th and beyond. The tracks and the right-of-way run all the way up to Albany. Westsiders and Washington Heights would love an express that went 72nd-125th-168th-Riverdale. Transfer tunnels could link the 1/9 along the way. Crossing the fault at 125th would not be a problem either because at that point the tracks are far enough west that a crossover would not block traffic. Did I mention that the cut for the tracks is already there???
  - Subject: Re: extension of the 7 west and south
  - Message Number: 762303
  - Posted by: Blaise
  - Date: Mon Jan 26 10:31:10 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: extension of the 7 west and south posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 21, 1998 at 09:41:50: How about running the & train west right under the Hudson River to Weehawken, Union City, Secaucus, Medowlands Sports Complex, Passaic, and Paterson? It would connect with the Hudson - Bergen LRT, giving that line a one stop connection to midtown.
    - Subject: Re: extension of the 7 west and south
    - Message Number: 762314
    - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
    - Date: Mon Jan 26 10:31:35 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: extension of the 7 west and south posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 21, 1998 at 09:41:50: The Javits Center could be served much more cheaply by running a shuttle, probably w/ LIRR equipment, between Penn Station and a new platform that would be built on the north side of the LIRR West Side Yard (Caemmerer Yard) which is right across the street from the Javits Center. A free transfer using MetroCard would be permitted from existing bus or subway lines. The platform would not need to accommodate a full length LIRR train. The shuttle could only run during Javits Center events (or maybe between 7am and 7pm) to save some additional money. The MTA would not have to spend huge amounts of money to build new tunnels, only a new island platform and perhaps some track switches to accommodate the shuttle. --Mark
      - Subject: Re: extension of the 7 west and south
      - Message Number: 762319
      - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
      - Date: Mon Jan 26 10:31:51 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: extension of the 7 west and south posted by Chris C. on January 21, 1998 at 10:44:31: These discussions usually end when someone (often me) reminds all that the lower level 8th Ave 42nd St platform blocks extention of the #7 to the West. However, this time let's turn this fact into a plus! We know that all tracks north of 42nd street can be routed to the lower platform. At this time the lower tracks reconnect to the lines above. But they could (relatively) easily be turned to the right and diverted to tenth or eleventh, and run as far south as funding permits, or hooked up to the L at 14th St. All IND/BMT, so no width problems. I am presuming that service to the West side would be justified by development which has occurred in the years since I left (1964); It certainly wasn't then!
        
        Subject: Re: extension of the 7 west and south
        Message Number: 762321
        Posted by: Chris C
        Date: Mon Jan 26 10:32:01 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: extension of the 7 west and south posted by Gary Jacobi on January 21, 1998 at 17:08:45: Forgot about the lower level. However, it seems that if they can put a man on the moon, they can come up with a switching system that would alow one set of tracks to bisect another. What are we wimps??? As to the development point. The Javits Center as well as some speculative ventures like the Sports complex suspended above the Penn Yards or the Extension to Penn Station potentially at the same site, as well as the assumption that Battery Park City will creep uptown in the years to come, are reasons to support extensions west.

Thread title: Re: read this for lotsa info bout the R142 (who's building the R143?) (762299)
Started on Mon Jan 26 10:31:00 1998, by Lefty

Subject: Re: read this for lotsa info bout the R142 (who's building the R143?)
Message Number: 762299
Posted by: Lefty
Date: Mon Jan 26 10:31:00 1998

In Reply to: [8]Re: read this for lotsa info bout the R142 posted by David Pirmann on January 20, 1998 at 20:11:09: i see all this stuff bout the R142 on the bombardier website but what about the R143, is that contract still undecided or something?
- Subject: Re: read this for lotsa info bout the R142 (who's building the R143?)
- Message Number: 762307
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Mon Jan 26 10:31:18 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Re: read this for lotsa info bout the R142 (who's building the R143?) posted by Lefty on January 21, 1998 at 10:14:42: No contracts have been let for (what will presumably be called) the R143 yet.

Thread title: Re: Connections NYC Subway & Price Club & NYCHRR (762304)
Started on Mon Jan 26 10:31:12 1998, by Lou from Brooklyn

Subject: Re: Connections NYC Subway & Price Club & NYCHRR
Message Number: 762304
Posted by: Lou from Brooklyn
Date: Mon Jan 26 10:31:12 1998

In Reply to: [7]Re: Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails posted by si2000 on January 20, 1998 at 10:38:24: This was a major hangup to the construction of the Price Club on Third Ave in brooklyn. The old tracks ran straight through the old Davidson Pipe Company yard. SBRR had right of way, and Davidson just had to keep the tracks clear. When Davidson closed up and sold the property to CostCo/Price Club CostCo had to pay for the reallignment of the tracks to the outside edge of the property. This is kinda funny compared to the condition of the rail accross Third Ave and into the system. I don't know if the new construction used 100lb rail, I have yet to visit the sight. (This is as per an ex-purchasing agent from Davidson). On another note, New York Cross Harbor was/is in a lot of trouble with the IRS, at one point they were going to seeze the engines/tugboat but I don't know what happened with that. (From an Ex-Revenue Officer IRS)
- Subject: Re: Connections NYC Subway & Price Club & NYCHRR
- Message Number: 762306
- Posted by: Peter Rosa
- Date: Mon Jan 26 10:31:16 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Re: Connections NYC Subway & Price Club & NYCHRR posted by Lou from Brooklyn on January 21, 1998 at 10:56:17: If 100-lb. rail means standard main-line rail, then the tracks around the Price Club probably would qualify. I explored the area about a year ago, and there didn't seem to be anything unusual about the track (besides, of course, its newness). You are completely right about the contrast between the new track and the other tracks in the area. While the track crossing Third Avenue from the yard was reasonably intact, I could not say the same for the track to the west of the Price Club, crossing Second Avenue. That track certainly looked abandoned; at one point in the street crossing there was a hardened asphalt spill filling the groove, that looked like it had been there (and trains *hadn't* been there) in quite some time. It doesn't look likely that any subway rolling stock will be passing that way again, even disregarding the NYCH's woes, at least without some major track repairs. Presumably, all future deliveries of subway rolling stock will use flatbed trucks.

Thread title: Unofficial Time (762313)
Started on Mon Jan 26 10:31:31 1998, by Mark S Feinman

Subject: Unofficial Time
Message Number: 762313
Posted by: Mark S Feinman
Date: Mon Jan 26 10:31:31 1998

In Reply to: [8]HORRORS!!! posted by Charles Fiori on January 19, 1998 at 08:30:15: I heard this morning that the unofficial time for the 2 guys that attempted to break the record yesterday (1/20/98) was 25 hours 11 minutes, pending Guinness approval/validation of the time. --Mark

Thread title: Message titles falsely appearing as read (762337)
Started on Mon Jan 26 12:29:01 1998, by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto

Subject: Message titles falsely appearing as read
Message Number: 762337
Posted by: Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto
Date: Mon Jan 26 12:29:01 1998

Has anyone had the problem on this board lately where SOME unread messages are appearing as already read (eg: dark blue instead of bright blue)? Dave?
- Subject: Re: Message titles falsely appearing as read
- Message Number: 762338
- Posted by: Alan Follett
- Date: Mon Jan 26 12:29:06 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Message titles falsely appearing as read posted by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto on January 21, 1998 at 07:05:59: I can't say I've noted exactly that problem. However, at least on my screen, the light and dark shades of blue are so close to each other that it's hard to distinguish between them.
  - Subject: Re: Message titles falsely appearing as read
  - Message Number: 762341
  - Posted by: David Pirmann - web site host
  - Date: Mon Jan 26 12:29:16 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Message titles falsely appearing as read posted by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto on January 21, 1998 at 07:05:59: The marking of the links is a function of your browser. I reset the message numbers a while back so it is possible you're seeing "posts" you've already seen. E.g. your post was /subtalk/messages/3771.html which had existed once before. Your browser can't tell the difference. If it reall matters to you, try dumping the history of visited sites.
    - Subject: Re: Message titles falsely appearing as read
    - Message Number: 762342
    - Posted by: Timothy Speer
    - Date: Mon Jan 26 12:29:18 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: Message titles falsely appearing as read posted by Alan Follett on January 21, 1998 at 08:15:10: You can change the "visited links" colors under "preferences." I use red.
      - Subject: Re: Message titles falsely appearing as read
      - Message Number: 762376
      - Posted by: Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto
      - Date: Mon Jan 26 12:31:14 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Message titles falsely appearing as read posted by David Pirmann - web site host on January 21, 1998 at 11:48:20: Dave, you hit it right on the head! BUT, I'm afraid you don't take the problem seriously enough: nobody would want to dump their sites-visited-history - everyone wants to know where he already has been. This change is *****VERY***** BAD - I NOW see even more that I have been assuming WHOLE CONTINUATIONS of threads were checked out by me already, when IN FACT I've missed MUCH. I'm SURE that others with Netscape are also suffering from this AND HAVEN'T FOUND OUT YET! Sorry to bring bad news Dave, but I advise EVERYONE to check back on threads they have been following, and to be aware that of the 20-25 messages appearing overnight, it may appear that far fewer have arrived, and much is being missed! Dave, can anything br done (that doesn't ruin everyone's link history)?
        
        Subject: Re: Message titles falsely appearing as read
        Message Number: 762379
        Posted by: David Pirmann
        Date: Mon Jan 26 12:31:21 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Message titles falsely appearing as read posted by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto on January 22, 1998 at 03:48:14: The link history is purely under the browser's control. Short of renumbering all the subtalk messages there's nothing that can be done here until it starts using numbers that were never used before. Alternatively you could figure out the format of Netscape's history.db file and pull out all the subtalk entries. Personally, I use the View by Date screen exclusively to read Subtalk. I just scroll down to the last message I know I saw, and then work my way up the list. Using View by Date means you'll know you haven't seen an article regardless of it's link color. -Dave
        
        Subject: Re: Message titles falsely appearing as read
        Message Number: 762383
        Posted by: Fred Wellamn
        Date: Mon Jan 26 12:31:44 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Message titles falsely appearing as read posted by David Pirmann on January 22, 1998 at 08:48:45: While my computer was being upgraded I used a friends who has a much better terminal. I could barley make out the read posts. I also view by date so it wasn't to bad. If you can you might try adjusting your colors on your monitor.
        
        Subject: Re: Message titles falsely appearing as read
        Message Number: 762421
        Posted by: Andrew Huie
        Date: Mon Jan 26 12:33:31 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Message titles falsely appearing as read posted by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto on January 22, 1998 at 03:48:14: Actually, I encountered this problem a while ago, but I thought my browser history was corrupt. I cleared it and *presto!* all gone. For now.
        
        Subject: Re: Message titles falsely appearing as read
        Message Number: 762426
        Posted by: Dan Lawrence
        Date: Mon Jan 26 12:33:44 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Message titles falsely appearing as read posted by Andrew Huie on January 22, 1998 at 22:15:37: My browser (Netscape 3) has read messages set to red, but on nysubway.org they still appear dark blue. Every other web site I visit that has a message board has the read messages in red. You figger it out. I also clean out the cache of EVERYTHING (Netcape re-establishes the .db file every time.
        
        Subject: Re: Message titles falsely appearing as read
        Message Number: 762444
        Posted by: David Pirmann
        Date: Mon Jan 26 12:34:41 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Message titles falsely appearing as read posted by Dan Lawrence on January 22, 1998 at 23:26:45: Netscape allows you to set your own colors for links and visited links but also allows the web page author to suggest what colors should be used for links. IIRC, there's an option in Netscape to override the "suggested" colors and always use your defaults. Sounds like you defined your own link colors but didn't set the option to always use your link colors...

Thread title: schedules (762339)
Started on Mon Jan 26 12:29:08 1998, by aaron

Subject: schedules
Message Number: 762339
Posted by: aaron
Date: Mon Jan 26 12:29:08 1998

How about posting schedules so users don't have to call TA and remain on hold for 15 minutes.
- Subject: Re: schedules
- Message Number: 762340
- Posted by: 330-1234
- Date: Mon Jan 26 12:29:11 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]schedules posted by aaron on January 21, 1998 at 08:30:42: All Train Schedules are on the web site for each line.
  - Subject: Re: schedules
  - Message Number: 762344
  - Posted by: Mark S Feinamn
  - Date: Mon Jan 26 12:29:23 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]schedules posted by aaron on January 21, 1998 at 08:30:42: Schedules and other official communiques from NYC Transit should be found on MTA's web site. This site isn't affiliated with the MTA in any way and wouldn't have schedules posted. --Mark

Thread title: Just another ride home (762343)
Started on Mon Jan 26 12:29:21 1998, by aaron

Subject: Just another ride home
Message Number: 762343
Posted by: aaron
Date: Mon Jan 26 12:29:21 1998

On the #2 northbound from Chambers to Penn Station last night. Going for the 17:46 LIRR train to Far Rockaway, change at Jamaica. Got as far as 28th street at 17:41. Train stops. We sit. 17:44, informed that #3 train is BIE at Penn Station. 17:49, still sitting, missed LIRR. 17:50, bum sitting by door blows chow all over crowded car, dousing a poor women in business clothes. 17:51, passengers scatter as best they can. 17:53, car starts to reek. 17:55, BIE condition ahead clears up, #2 continues on to 34th Street. 17:58, on 18:02 LIRR train to Far Rockaway. Just another ride home...
- Subject: Re: Just another ride home
- Message Number: 762345
- Posted by: Peter Rosa
- Date: Mon Jan 26 12:29:25 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Just another ride home posted by aaron on January 21, 1998 at 12:49:51: Looks like your timing's a bit off. If the skell blew chunks at 17:50, the passengers would've scattered not at 17:51, as you say, but at 17:50.01 :-)
  - Subject: Re: Just another ride home
  - Message Number: 762349
  - Posted by: tom vicinanza
  - Date: Mon Jan 26 12:29:39 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]Just another ride home posted by aaron on January 21, 1998 at 12:49:51: And that is one of the many reasons I left NYC 10 years ago.
    - Subject: Re: Just another ride home
    - Message Number: 762360
    - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
    - Date: Mon Jan 26 12:30:20 1998
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: Just another ride home posted by tom vicinanza on January 21, 1998 at 14:12:56: Really? Where did you go to escape this phenomenon? The drunks barf on innocent bystanders everywhere I've been!
      - Subject: Re: Just another ride home
      - Message Number: 762365
      - Posted by: tom vicinanza
      - Date: Mon Jan 26 12:30:32 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Just another ride home posted by Gary Jacobi on January 21, 1998 at 18:55:57: Perhaps it is just more pleasant when they barf on you here. I'm in Orlando. Seriously, I put up with enough drunks strecthed out on the seats at 6 a.m. then I want to remember.
        
        Subject: Re: Just another ride home
        Message Number: 762366
        Posted by: Nick
        Date: Mon Jan 26 12:30:34 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Just another ride home posted by tom vicinanza on January 21, 1998 at 20:32:29: It's too bad you had to go through all of that. If you were kind of lucky, you may have at least gotten to admire the R110A (since your on the #2) but luck just wasn't on your side. Well, some days are better than others.-Nick
        
        Subject: Re: Just another ride home
        Message Number: 762372
        Posted by: Joe M
        Date: Mon Jan 26 12:30:47 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Just another ride home posted by tom vicinanza on January 21, 1998 at 20:32:29: We had snow here today but rather uneventfull. Just one fire plug jumped out in front of a bus No damage to either. Some days are better than others.

Thread title: New NYC Subway Map (762346)
Started on Mon Jan 26 12:29:30 1998, by Mark S Feinman

Subject: New NYC Subway Map
Message Number: 762346
Posted by: Mark S Feinman
Date: Mon Jan 26 12:29:30 1998

Heard on WCBS newsradio88 this morning (and copied from their web site): MTA Issues New Subway Map It's time to pick up a new subway map. WCBS Newsradio 88 Reporter Mike Xirinachs tells us the MTA has resigned its free subway map for the first time in nearly 20 years. One of the biggest improvements is that the new map shows the bus connections at all the major subway stations. It also shows more ferry connections and the entire Staten Island rapid transit system. The reverse side shows many of the major suburban transit systems. To get all that new information on the map, they had to make it nearly twice as big. Now it has to be folded nine times in one direction, and three times in the other. Anyone have one already and care to share what they think of it? --Mark
- Subject: Re: New NYC Subway Map
- Message Number: 762347
- Posted by: Daniel
- Date: Mon Jan 26 12:29:32 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]New NYC Subway Map posted by Mark S Feinman on January 21, 1998 at 13:27:32: Interesting... its sounds very similar to a map the MTA released about two years ago... It had the subway map on one side, and a map of the Metro-North and Long Island Railroads on the other... This map that you are discussing... Will it be available in all 468 stations, or would you have to pick one up at the major transfer hubs in the system (i.e. Penn Sta., Grand Central, etc.)? Otherwise, it's great they have a new map... Now, how about improving the system, and possibly build (only in my dreams) the Second Ave. subway... Then we're talking! P.S. -- I know... it's too much to ask...
  - Subject: Re: New NYC Subway Map
  - Message Number: 762368
  - Posted by: Walter
  - Date: Mon Jan 26 12:30:38 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: New NYC Subway Map posted by Daniel on January 21, 1998 at 14:04:32: The new map was available today in the Transit Museum shop in Grand Central Terminal but not in the racks at MTA headquarters on Madison Ave. It's basically an updated 1979 subway map on one side (with some bus and ferry connections noted) and the M-N/LIRR map on the other side, just like the recent MTA map. The subway side doesn't yet show the B/C train changes, but it shows the B/Q running only to 57th St. and an S shuttle running from 7th Ave./57th St. to 21st St. in Queens. I don't see what all the ruckus is all about; I guess it's all MTA hype.
    - Subject: Re: New NYC Subway Map
    - Message Number: 762394
    - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
    - Date: Mon Jan 26 12:32:14 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: New NYC Subway Map posted by Daniel on January 21, 1998 at 14:04:32: > This map that you are discussing... Will it be available in all 468 > stations, or would you have to pick one up at the major transfer hubs in > the system (i.e. Penn Sta., Grand Central, etc.)? I am assuming it is a replacement for the current map, and that it will be available at all 468 stations at some point. --Mark
      - Subject: Re: New NYC Subway Map
      - Message Number: 762402
      - Posted by: sdc_foti
      - Date: Mon Jan 26 12:32:35 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]New NYC Subway Map posted by Mark S Feinman on January 21, 1998 at 13:27:32: What No free maps!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! shit that sucks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!! Foti-
        
        Subject: Re: New NYC Subway Map
        Message Number: 762653
        Posted by: sdc-foti
        Date: Fri Jan 30 14:25:54 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: New NYC Subway Map posted by Hank Eisenstein on January 24, 1998 at 15:04:58: The ppl I talked to say that "The Map" Is the replacement. my heart is sinking, Foti-
        
        Subject: Re: New NYC Subway Map
        Message Number: 762685
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Sat Jan 31 23:09:27 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: New NYC Subway Map posted by sdc-foti on January 27, 1998 at 10:38:11: If this is true, everyone might want to download the presently available electronic MTA map from their website for future reference.

Thread title: Triborough System and NYW&B Pages (762350)
Started on Mon Jan 26 12:29:42 1998, by Will

Subject: Triborough System and NYW&B Pages
Message Number: 762350
Posted by: Will
Date: Mon Jan 26 12:29:42 1998

For some reason, whenever I try and load these pages all the text comes in on top of itself so that the screen is illegible. What I mean to say is that it all seems "squished" together so that almost every line is on top of another line thereby creating crazy dark bands across my screen. Anyone have any idea if something is wrong? If so, what? Has anyone else had any trouble loading these pages?
- Subject: Re: Triborough System and NYW&B Pages
- Message Number: 762354
- Posted by: David Pirmann - web site host
- Date: Mon Jan 26 12:29:52 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Triborough System and NYW&B Pages posted by Will on January 21, 1998 at 14:41:38: What browser are you using? I have Cascading Style Sheets on those pages. It should display properly in a CSS-enabled browser (IE 3.0, IE 4.0, NS 4.0). Admittedly I've only tested it using Netscape. Browsers which don't understand CSS (like NS 3.0) will ignore the CSS codes. I've looked at it with NS 3.0 on Windows 95, and NS 4.0 on Unix from different machines and it all appears fine to me.
  - Subject: Re: Triborough System and NYW&B Pages
  - Message Number: 762357
  - Posted by: Dan Schwartz
  - Date: Mon Jan 26 12:29:59 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Triborough System and NYW&B Pages posted by David Pirmann - web site host on January 21, 1998 at 16:02:20: I also have not been able to read the NYWB main page or the the pages it links to (from the NYWB3.HTML up) using Internet Explorer 3.0. Only a jumbled black mass appears, instead of the body text. The pages look fine, however, when viewed with Netscape Navigator 3.03 Gold. Indeed, they look quite attractive. I also found that if I save the jumbled-looking pages locally on my hard drive, and later load the saved files into Internet Explorer, they display fine. But viewed on-line, they don't. I hope this is some help in tracking down the problem. I think it has something to do with "style sheets", since the new pages, the ones with the problem, have a reference to something like that in the HTML code, while the older pages (without the problem) don't.
    - Subject: Re: Triborough System and NYW&B Pages
    - Message Number: 762358
    - Posted by: Joshua Caesar
    - Date: Mon Jan 26 12:30:06 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: Triborough System and NYW&B Pages posted by Dan Schwartz on January 21, 1998 at 17:56:49: When I highlight the NYW&B page, which is extremely "jumbled", it gets rid of alot of that effect. I could read a good part of the page highlighted, although some of the text still ran over some of the other text, but not very much. I am using AOL for 3.0 win 95, IE version 3.02 Josh Caesar studlyjc@aol.com
      - Subject: Re: Triborough System and NYW&B Pages
      - Message Number: 762362
      - Posted by: David Pirmann
      - Date: Mon Jan 26 12:30:26 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Triborough System and NYW&B Pages posted by Joshua Caesar on January 21, 1998 at 18:31:01: Anyone running IE 4.0 and having the problem? My general disdain for Microsoft products aside, it seems like IE3.0 is neither displaying the CSS information properly NOR ignoring it. -Dave
        
        Subject: Re: Triborough System and NYW&B Pages
        Message Number: 762363
        Posted by: David Pirmann
        Date: Mon Jan 26 12:30:28 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Triborough System and NYW&B Pages posted by David Pirmann on January 21, 1998 at 20:03:06: I just changed the stylesheet slightly. You IE 3.0 people, please let me know if it is any better. -Dave
        
        Subject: Re: Triborough System and NYW&B Pages
        Message Number: 762369
        Posted by: Dan Schwartz
        Date: Mon Jan 26 12:30:40 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Triborough System and NYW&B Pages posted by David Pirmann on January 21, 1998 at 20:05:15: YES! It looks fine now. Many thanks.
        
        Subject: Re: Triborough System and NYW&B Pages
        Message Number: 762387
        Posted by: Will
        Date: Mon Jan 26 12:31:55 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Triborough System and NYW&B Pages posted by Dan Schwartz on January 21, 1998 at 22:59:44: Thank You! The page is now easy to read. I'm not nearly as computer-literate as some of the other folks here on this site, but my computer now lets me see these pages flawlessly. Again, thanks!

Thread title: Delaware Water Gap tracks (762351)
Started on Mon Jan 26 12:29:44 1998, by Steve

Subject: Delaware Water Gap tracks
Message Number: 762351
Posted by: Steve
Date: Mon Jan 26 12:29:44 1998

I was passing the Delaware Water Gap on I-80 and noticed a old track and a station house. The station house was in very bad condition. It seemd like a old abandoned passenger line? Is this true? If not, what is it? Have anyone seen it, or know what I'm talking about?
- Subject: Re: Delaware Water Gap tracks
- Message Number: 762355
- Posted by: Adam
- Date: Mon Jan 26 12:29:54 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Delaware Water Gap tracks posted by Steve on January 21, 1998 at 14:48:27: I heard a while ago that they were establishing a rail link between NYC and the Delaware Water Gap area. They had most of the track except for some sections in NJ that they needed to condemn or something.

Thread title: Re: New NYC Subway Map (NYCT or MTA??) (762352)
Started on Mon Jan 26 12:29:46 1998, by Carl M. Rabbin

Subject: Re: New NYC Subway Map (NYCT or MTA??)
Message Number: 762352
Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
Date: Mon Jan 26 12:29:46 1998

In Reply to: [7]Re: New NYC Subway Map posted by Daniel on January 21, 1998 at 14:04:32: I agree. It may be the >> new version of its entire rail system (Subway, LIRR, Metro North), like the one that came out about 2 years ago. It may not be the new >> Subway map, which I thought would come out in March to reflect the impending change discussed here between the B and C lines in Washington Hts and the Bronx. The first "MTA Rail" map struck me as a bit odd at the time, since one side was nearly a duplicate (done independently, apparently) of the subway map. Personally I would prefer 4 rail maps to be put out: Subway, LIRR, Metro-North, NJT. However,I certainly don't mind the MTA version, but for exact service the NYCT has to be the Bible of the subway. The MTA version is an interpretive translation + the Commuter lines (no more metaphors).
- Subject: Re: New NYC Subway Map (NYCT or MTA??)
- Message Number: 762564
- Posted by: Andrew Huie
- Date: Fri Jan 30 14:21:45 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Re: New NYC Subway Map (NYCT or MTA??) posted by Walter on January 24, 1998 at 21:04:32: Argh! If there's any place that needs a transit map, it's NJ. It's hard coordinating bus connections with the cryptic timetables they give out now!

Thread title: Re: New NYC Subway Map (NYCT or MTA??) Attempt #2 (762353)
Started on Mon Jan 26 12:29:50 1998, by Carl M. Rabbin

Subject: Re: New NYC Subway Map (NYCT or MTA??) Attempt #2
Message Number: 762353
Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
Date: Mon Jan 26 12:29:50 1998

In Reply to: [7]Re: New NYC Subway Map posted by Daniel on January 21, 1998 at 14:04:32: I agree. It may be the MTA's new version of its entire rail system (Subway, LIRR, Metro North), like the one that came out about 2 years ago. It may not be the new NYCT Subway map, which I thought would come out in March to reflect the impending change discussed here between the B and C lines in Washington Hts and the Bronx. The first "MTA Rail" map struck me as a bit odd at the time, since one side was nearly a duplicate (done independently, apparently) of the subway map. Personally I would prefer 4 rail maps to be put out: Subway, LIRR, Metro-North, NJT. However,I certainly don't mind the MTA version, but for exact service the NYCT has to be the Bible of the subway. The MTA version is an interpretive translation + the Commuter lines (no more metaphors).
- Subject: Re: New NYC Subway Map (NYCT or MTA??) Attempt #2
- Message Number: 762410
- Posted by: Larry Littlefield
- Date: Mon Jan 26 12:32:54 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]Re: New NYC Subway Map (NYCT or MTA??) Attempt #2 posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 21, 1998 at 14:58:13: I would like to see all the rail services on one map, rather than on two sides. So I created a "cartogram," with the size of each of the region's counties adjusted by the number working there. The dense inner counties, especially Manhattan, get really big, while Putnam county gets really small. This should allow everything on one scale. Some buddies at NYC City Planning, who are adept at these things, have been entering this map into the computer. This will produce an interesting color poster, which I hope I can convince the Department to sell if it is ever finished. If I have time, I will then draw all the rail lines and perhaps all the major roads as well. Of course, a cartogram is not geographically correct. Indeed, since Manhattan is so large, it acts like a black hole: all the other counties are stretched and smushed against it in order to maintain their approximate shapes and positions (we put a real map, with counties in the same color as on the cartogram, as an inset, along with a table of employment). Any road or transit map produced on this base would be very schematic. On the other hand, the map is correct in a way that a geographic map is not. Most of my family has moved away from New York, and my brother lives in Tulsa. "I would never live in New York" he says, "because of the traffic. In Tulsa I can get anywhere to visit anyone or anything in 15 minutes." My response is that only 500,000 people live in Tulsa, and I can easily get to locations where 500,000 people live within Brooklyn. Its just that in the NY area, there are another 500,000 next to that, and another 500,000 next to that, etc. I find that distances warped by employment reflect travel time better than actual distance, given traffic congestion. In reality, Manhattan is only a couple of miles wide while Putnam County is 20 miles north to south. But during rush hour, it would probably take longer to get across Manhattan than to get across Putnam.

Thread title: LA Subway Funding Cutoff (762356)
Started on Mon Jan 26 12:29:56 1998, by Gary Jacobi

Subject: LA Subway Funding Cutoff
Message Number: 762356
Posted by: Gary Jacobi
Date: Mon Jan 26 12:29:56 1998

I am in a position to field questions about the details of the funding cutoff that made yesterday's news. Unfortunately my contact is out of the office today, but will call me tomorrow. I will ask, and pass on the answers to, what lines will and won't be built, and anything else anybody asks me, but please don't ask WHY!!
- Subject: Re: LA Subway Funding Cutoff
- Message Number: 762361
- Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
- Date: Mon Jan 26 12:30:23 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]LA Subway Funding Cutoff posted by Gary Jacobi on January 21, 1998 at 16:36:56: Given that LA is the land of the automobile , I don't think we need to ask WHY. My only question is how many more lanes they widen the highway before they get serious about mass transit. 5? 10?? 20??
  - Subject: Re: LA Subway Funding Cutoff
  - Message Number: 762371
  - Posted by: Joe-M
  - Date: Mon Jan 26 12:30:45 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]LA Subway Funding Cutoff posted by Gary Jacobi on January 21, 1998 at 16:36:56: I could use some of the stockpiled concrete ties (about 5500 or so) that I saw on TV last night What will they do with surplus materials. Inter-agency transfer comes to mind. PS are you in Sac.??
    - Subject: Re: LA Subway Funding Cutoff
    - Message Number: 762373
    - Posted by: Larry Littlefied
    - Date: Mon Jan 26 12:30:51 1998
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: LA Subway Funding Cutoff posted by Philip Nasadowski on January 21, 1998 at 19:37:38: My question is, what money was cut off? Federal or local? The view from NYC is, the LA subway is doomed to failure. For mass transit to cover its cost, there has to be a mass -- otherwise the government is chauffering around a small number of people at an exhorbitant cost. No corridor in LA has sufficient residence or workplace density to support a subway without extreme subsidies. LA has about the same density as Staten Island, and the SIRT covers about 10 percent of its operating costs. Unfortunately, post 1950 American metro areas seem to develop to the point where they area too congested for transportation by auto, but not too dispersed for mass transit. So people move on to less congested metro areas, and to rural areas. Older cities, fortunately, already have density and mass transit. New York City's economy is strong. Perhaps there is hope for Philadelphia and Baltimore yet,
      - Subject: Re: LA Subway Funding Cutoff
      - Message Number: 762375
      - Posted by: Fernando Perez
      - Date: Mon Jan 26 12:31:12 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: LA Subway Funding Cutoff posted by Larry Littlefied on January 21, 1998 at 23:41:13: Since it wont be feasible to continue as planned with the subway is there a back up plan to use portions already built as light rail? Or is it just to late for anything else? How about donating the ties to railroad and trolley museums? Other cities could use the surplus subway cars possibly with modifications.
        
        Subject: Re: LA Subway Funding Cutoff
        Message Number: 762395
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Mon Jan 26 12:32:16 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: LA Subway Funding Cutoff posted by Joe-M on January 21, 1998 at 23:32:39: Yup, Sac it is!
        
        Subject: Re: LA Subway Funding Cutoff
        Message Number: 762427
        Posted by: Joe M
        Date: Mon Jan 26 12:33:47 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: LA Subway Funding Cutoff posted by Gary Jacobi on January 22, 1998 at 13:12:55: My wifes sister is in Davis. I will likely be out there this summer When I know whem I will be there I will need some advice on what parts of the light rail system to ride in there.
        
        Subject: Re: LA Subway Funding Cutoff
        Message Number: 762428
        Posted by: Jeffrey Davis
        Date: Mon Jan 26 12:33:51 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: LA Subway Funding Cutoff posted by Philip Nasadowski on January 21, 1998 at 19:37:38: Without getting too much into 'why', myself, the 'why' is more complicated than habitual auto lust. Mr. Littlefield's response captures some of the problem. The rest of the story is that LA's MTA became much more of a trough for barely overseen rail contracts than a serious developer of public transit. A real loss for everyone (the transit, not *necessarily* the trains).

Thread title: Boston MBTA - Red Line indicator (762359)
Started on Mon Jan 26 12:30:16 1998, by Doug Hall

Subject: Boston MBTA - Red Line indicator
Message Number: 762359
Posted by: Doug Hall
Date: Mon Jan 26 12:30:16 1998

Anyone know what the small yellow light on the front end of red line trains (Braintree-Alewife) indicates ?

Thread title: Subway map from Fall '85! Dave P. check it out! (762364)
Started on Mon Jan 26 12:30:30 1998, by Lefty

Subject: Subway map from Fall '85! Dave P. check it out!
Message Number: 762364
Posted by: Lefty
Date: Mon Jan 26 12:30:30 1998

hey, i just scanned this.. i found it in my house while looking for something completely different.. it is the first map released (i think) after the elimination of the double letter trains.. it also may be the first map showing the H and K trains and also shows the JFK express train! put in on the site maybe Dave Pirmann.. hope this works: [8]http://www.inch.com/~orion/NYCSubwayFall1985.jpg - 1.6 MB
- Subject: Re: Subway map from Fall '85! Dave P. check it out!
- Message Number: 762367
- Posted by: Nick
- Date: Mon Jan 26 12:30:36 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Subway map from Fall '85! Dave P. check it out! posted by Lefty on January 21, 1998 at 20:25:20: Wow, this brings back memories! I remember catching the N train at Forest Hills! This map is probably right after they did away with the double letter trains (RR, JJ, etc.-I'm making those trains up...forget which ones were double letters) Just give me a train where the doors have two window circles on them and we'll be all set.-Nick
  - Subject: Re: Subway map from Fall '85! Dave P. check it out!
  - Message Number: 762381
  - Posted by: sean
  - Date: Mon Jan 26 12:31:37 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Subway map from Fall '85! Dave P. check it out! posted by Nick on January 21, 1998 at 21:36:20: looking at the map brought up some questions. when did the TA eliminate the free transfer to the bus which replaced the old Myrtle Avenue el? It had the dotted brown line in it's place. Also, was the dotted line at the Marcy Ave stop near the Williamsburg bridge a substitute for the abandoned el spur to the old ferry landing?
    - Subject: Re: Subway map from Fall '85! Dave P. check it out!
    - Message Number: 762384
    - Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
    - Date: Mon Jan 26 12:31:49 1998
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: Subway map from Fall '85! Dave P. check it out! posted by sean on January 22, 1998 at 09:01:41: As far as the Myrtle Avenue bus is concerned, I guess not too many people used it. Basically westbound you could get on the bus for free with a transfer from the Myrtle-Bway stop. Eastbound busses allowed a transfer to the subway at that stop. There are not that many people who would ride all the way east to get on a bus to go to their homes back to the west, especially not when the G is about 1/3 mile from Myrtle Avenue most of the distance anyway. The other free transfer from the bus was to the 8th Ave at Jay St, which probably a lot of people used. However, for the return trip, you could only get a transfer at Bway-Nassau to use at Jay St., imitating the very old Brooklyn Bridge BMT elevated service. It just wasn't worth it, just as they eventually eliminated the Church Avenue free bus connection that imitated the Culver Shuttle. There also used to be a free transfer from almost every downtown Brooklyn bus to the 8th Ave at High St. The train-to-bus transfer had to be gotten at Bway-Nassau, again imitating the Brooklyn Bridge trolley service of the 1930s. I still have a few of those little ticket transfers at home. They look just like Franklin Shutle transfers. Now that there is Metrocard Gold, all this is merely a complicated footnote.

Thread title: Question RE: 42d St IND Lower Level *E Platform* (762370)
Started on Mon Jan 26 12:30:43 1998, by wsteil

Subject: Question RE: 42d St IND Lower Level *E Platform*
Message Number: 762370
Posted by: wsteil
Date: Mon Jan 26 12:30:43 1998

I just returned from an all-too-brief visit to NYC. One evening, I returned from the Met Museum on a downtown M4 bus, transferred free to the downtown E at the IND 5th Av./53d st. station. The train was jammed, so much so that I couldnt get off at 50th St/8 Av. because the platform was on the other side of the car. So I got off at the 42d St. IND Station *downstairs* at an island platform (which was on the "correct" side for me to get off). PA announcement on the train: "Change for the A & C lines *upstairs*". This platform appeared to be in regular service and did not look anything like the pictures of the abandoned station platform listed on this site. I went upstairs and crossed over to catch a northbound C or E back to 50th; I didnt have time to check things out more thoroughly; I do remember the upstairs platforms being offset: the platforms were not directly across from each other, but rather the downtown platform was about 500ft. further south than the northbound side (just as shown in Peter Dougherty's excellent book "Tracks of the NYC Subway") Questions for the group: (1) Has the TA resurrected & rehabilitated the *abandoned* racetrack platform I've seen referenced here on Subtalk, (2) Is there another (3rd) level to the station, or (3) Did I just have one great out of body experience?
- Subject: Re: Question RE: 42d St IND Lower Level *E Platform*
- Message Number: 762382
- Posted by: Peter Rosa
- Date: Mon Jan 26 12:31:41 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Question RE: 42d St IND Lower Level *E Platform* posted by wsteil on January 21, 1998 at 23:08:00: Looks like an out-of-body experience to me!! Actually, there are three levels at the 42 Street IND station. There is a mezzanine on the upper level, and all trains now operate on the second level. The lowest, third level is the abandoned downtown-only E train platform. To transfer from the downtown E to the uptown C/E, you had to go up to the mezzanine from the second level - that probably accounts for the confusion. Presumably, when the conductor made the "upstairs" announcement he/she was referring to a change from the downtown E to an uptown A or C, rather than to a downtown-downtown change. As far as I know, the abandoned lower level is closed for good and there are no plans to reopen it. Until relatively recently, a part of it was used for downtown-uptown transfers at the station, but that practice was ended when the mezzanine was rebuilt.
  - Subject: Re: Question RE: 42d St IND Lower Level *E Platform*
  - Message Number: 762391
  - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
  - Date: Mon Jan 26 12:32:05 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: Question RE: 42d St IND Lower Level *E Platform* posted by Peter Rosa on January 22, 1998 at 09:24:27: I would not rule out the possibility that you did visit the mysterious lower platform. The official reason that it was originally built was to be used in "crush loading" situations such as you described. The only deterioration I have heard about is in the wall tiles, which would be hidden behind the train. Any announcement about going upstairs to catch an A or C would not have anticipated your desire to go back uptown, but was meant to keep passengers from waiting there expecting an A or C to follow. The fact that you noticed the platform offset after going upstairs tells me you were on a different platform when you first arrived, and that could only be the lower level.
    - Subject: Re: Question RE: 42d St IND Lower Level *E Platform*
    - Message Number: 762409
    - Posted by: Steve
    - Date: Mon Jan 26 12:32:52 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Question RE: 42d St IND Lower Level *E Platform* posted by wsteil on January 21, 1998 at 23:08:00: The last time a train with customers aboard ended up at that platform, the train crew and tower operator were all removed from service. I would, therefore, say choice 3 is the most likely. However, if you give me the date and approximate time (I suppose a car # would be too much to ask for) I can check it out for you. In the meantime, give my regards to Rod (Serling, that is). Dah Dah Dah Dah, Dah Dah Dah Dah
      - Subject: Re: Question RE: 42d St IND Lower Level *E Platform*
      - Message Number: 762415
      - Posted by: Daniel
      - Date: Mon Jan 26 12:33:14 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Question RE: 42d St IND Lower Level *E Platform* posted by wsteil on January 21, 1998 at 23:08:00: By far... the spookiest story I've heard... What makes it even scarier is that a neighbor of mine in NJ told me the exact same story (she too is a train buff)... CAN IT ALL BE TRUE?!
        
        Subject: Re: Question RE: 42d St IND Lower Level *E Platform*
        Message Number: 762420
        Posted by: Andrew Huie
        Date: Mon Jan 26 12:33:28 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Question RE: 42d St IND Lower Level *E Platform* posted by Gary Jacobi on January 22, 1998 at 11:17:49: One way you might be able to tell which level is the lighting. Last I saw the lower level still used incandescent light bulbs. Another thing is that there can't be more than 2 stairs out of that area - almost all the other stairs have been cemented over. And last, the lower level has only one track - if you see any other tracks, you were on the main level.
        
        Subject: Re: Question RE: 42d St IND Lower Level *E Platform*
        Message Number: 762424
        Posted by: subman23
        Date: Mon Jan 26 12:33:38 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Question RE: 42d St IND Lower Level *E Platform* posted by Daniel on January 22, 1998 at 20:08:06: Just to stress what Steve stated. It is not possible.. The lower level is dark and stairways are closed with gate and chain. Enter the twilight zone!
        
        Subject: Re: Question RE: 42d St IND Lower Level *E Platform*
        Message Number: 762433
        Posted by: wsteil
        Date: Mon Jan 26 12:34:08 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Question RE: 42d St IND Lower Level *E Platform* posted by Andrew Huie on January 22, 1998 at 21:54:56: There was only one track visible, the platform was on the east side of the the downtown E train. Several people got off, and some followed the signs to the DOWNTOWN & EXIT stairway, while the rest of us took another stairs (UPTOWN A/C/E) to the island platform upstairs. At no time did I go the mezzanine, cross over, and then go back down. I don't recall the lighting as being incandescent - I would usually notice that fact, partly from the old 42d St/7th Av IRT entrances with the 5 light bulbs over the stairs, which I always thought was cool. The lighting was the standard cold white fluorescent, common in the older stations. (I've been through the 8th Ave IND mezzanine many times before, in order to avoid the rain, getting to and from the 42d St IRT 1/2/3 & 7 station and the Milford Plaza (nee Manhattan) Hotel at 44th & 8th. I have seen the trains downstairs through the open stairways while walking by. I also recall a Transit Police Post on the Mezzanine between 43d and 44th.)
        
        Subject: Re: Question RE: 42d St IND Lower Level *E Platform*
        Message Number: 762434
        Posted by: wsteil
        Date: Mon Jan 26 12:34:10 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Question RE: 42d St IND Lower Level *E Platform* posted by Steve on January 22, 1998 at 19:50:19: The date was Dec 16, 1997 Time into the subway at 53rd St & 5th Av station was about approx 6:30-6:45 pm. There was a loooong wait for the E; the platform was completely full by the time the train arrived - of course, the cars were full, too. A steady stream of people were also taking the stairs down to the lower level uptown & Queens platform. I got on the front half of the train. More people got on than got off at 7th Av and also at 50th. In fact, in five days, I had used $24 worth of Metrocard trips, and with only one exception on Sunday morning, the trains were full to jampacked. The only thing missing on the rush hour 4/5/6 were people on the platforms hired by the TA to push the customers into the cars, Tokyo-style I was fortunate to get tickets to the Tues 12/16 performance of Chicago at the Schubert. At those prices, I couldn't take any more time to scope everything out. Something to do on my next trip! By the way, the show was great! Thanks in advance for your help.
        
        Subject: Re: Question RE: 42d St IND Lower Level *E Platform*
        Message Number: 762435
        Posted by: wsteil
        Date: Mon Jan 26 12:34:12 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Question RE: 42d St IND Lower Level *E Platform* posted by Daniel on January 22, 1998 at 20:08:06: Can two train/subway buffs have the *same* out-of-body experience, on the E train??? (Oh, my God . . . what if she was on the same train???)
        
        Subject: Re: Question RE: 42d St IND Lower Level *E Platform*
        Message Number: 762436
        Posted by: wsteil
        Date: Mon Jan 26 12:34:15 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Question RE: 42d St IND Lower Level *E Platform* posted by Gary Jacobi on January 22, 1998 at 11:17:49: I agree. I was down on the lower (or third, counting the mezz.) level Rush Hour platform.
        
        Subject: Re: Question RE: 42d St IND Lower Level *E Platform*
        Message Number: 762446
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Mon Jan 26 12:34:47 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Question RE: 42d St IND Lower Level *E Platform* posted by Andrew Huie on January 22, 1998 at 21:54:56: I think it's pretty clear from these postings that the present state of repair of the lower platform has improved over what is shown in the "abandoned stations" pictures. Can someone in NYC confirm this with MTA?
        
        Subject: Re: Question RE: 42d St IND Lower Level *E Platform*
        Message Number: 762459
        Posted by: Steve B
        Date: Mon Jan 26 12:35:25 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Question RE: 42d St IND Lower Level *E Platform* posted by Andrew Huie on January 22, 1998 at 21:54:56: I wouldn't doubt that most of the stairways leading down to the lower level have been cemented over. I do know that the stairway at the south end of the downtown platform is still there. I think the stairway at the north end, which was used as part of the underpass to the uptown platform is gone, as well as the stairway on the southern end of the uptown platform. I remember using the underpass on a few occasions. There also used to be an escalator from the extreme southern end of the mezzanine (past the entrance to the Port Authority Bus Terminal and beyond the stairs to the downtown platform) to the lower level. It was marked "Entrance to Aqueduct Subway Special". In addition, there were signs posted all along the mezzanine which read, "Entrance for Aqueduct Specials at 40th St". Based on the photos of the lower level, the escalator guts are still in place, but the escalator opening in the mezzanine floor has been cemented over. I used to board downtown A trains at 42nd St. every Saturday for three years, so I'm very familiar with that station.
        
        Subject: Re: Question RE: 42d St IND Lower Level *E Platform*
        Message Number: 762475
        Posted by: Peter Rosa
        Date: Mon Jan 26 12:36:19 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Question RE: 42d St IND Lower Level *E Platform* posted by Steve B on January 23, 1998 at 15:38:32: All these postings sort of piqued my curiosity, so this afternoon after work I went a bit out of my way and looked around the downtown A/C/E platform. There is only one remaining stairway to the disused lower level, located near the downtown end of the active platform. Presumably the other stairway(s) was/were destroyed when the mezzanine was rebuilt and the ramps added. I couldn't see too much of the lower level, as the only lights were a couple of bulbs at the bottom of the stairway. The platform appeared to be quite dusty, though I can't be certain of that, and there was some litter that apparently came down from the active platform above. The stairway was in pretty bad shape, with most of the metal edges missing from the treads and the concrete steps themselves filthy and greasy-looking. The stairway wasn't impassible, but it surely would be quite a safety hazard if regularly used. In addition, the handrails were dirty and part of one was broken. Despite all this decrepitude, there was discordant note. The chain and padlock on the gate at the top of the stairway were obviously brand-new. So maybe, just maybe, people *have* been going that way recently ...

Thread title: New York Subway Line by Line: The Brighton Line, Working Draft (762374)
Started on Mon Jan 26 12:31:10 1998, by Mark S Feinman

Subject: New York Subway Line by Line: The Brighton Line, Working Draft
Message Number: 762374
Posted by: Mark S Feinman
Date: Mon Jan 26 12:31:10 1998

Hi all. This isn't finished yet, but there's plenty here to take a look at. Comments and corrections welcome. If anyone knows a bit about the parallel Manhattan Beach RR that ran with the Brighton Line to Ave X or so, your input would be most welcome. --Mark
- Subject: Re: New York Subway Line by Line: The Brighton Line, Working Draft
- Message Number: 762377
- Posted by: Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto
- Date: Mon Jan 26 12:31:16 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]New York Subway Line by Line: The Brighton Line, Working Draft posted by Mark S Feinman on January 22, 1998 at 00:15:12: Very nice. But, I think since you give various details of later service routings, you might add more on early services, such as the evening "theatre service" on the Brighton Exp run, the night Brighton Local switching over to the bridge, but runnung local on B'way, etc.
  - Subject: Re: New York Subway Line by Line: The Brighton Line, Working Draft
  - Message Number: 762385
  - Posted by: Mike Berson
  - Date: Mon Jan 26 12:31:52 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]New York Subway Line by Line: The Brighton Line, Working Draft posted by Mark S Feinman on January 22, 1998 at 00:15:12: Great Article!!! One possible correction When Chrystie Street opened, D trains terminated at Coney Island at all times and QB and QJ trains terminated at Brighton Beach. The D still ran express when the QB and QJ ran. This was later switched around and D trains terminated at Brighton Beach when the QB and QJ trains ran, and the QB and QJ terminated at Coney Island. I don't remember when it was switched around.
    - Subject: Re: New York Subway Line by Line: The Brighton Line, Working Draft
    - Message Number: 762392
    - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
    - Date: Mon Jan 26 12:32:08 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: New York Subway Line by Line: The Brighton Line, Working Draft posted by Mike Berson on January 22, 1998 at 10:03:09: Thanks, Mike. I think you're right about the D going to Coney Island and the locals terminating in Brighton Beach. My memory wasn't as sharp as it is now late last night! And I *should've* known that - I lived on Brighton 6th Street at the time and had a great view of the Brighton Beach station ..... I'll have to dig out my old subway maps (I know I have one for 1968 & 1972 somewhere ....) --Mark
      - Subject: Re: New York Subway Line by Line: The Brighton Line, Working Draft
      - Message Number: 762393
      - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
      - Date: Mon Jan 26 12:32:10 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: New York Subway Line by Line: The Brighton Line, Working Draft posted by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto on January 22, 1998 at 04:04:59: Actually, I wasn't aware of these extra services. Can you elaborate?? A theatre service?? --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: New York Subway Line by Line: The Brighton Line, Working Draft
        Message Number: 762396
        Posted by: Ed Sachs
        Date: Mon Jan 26 12:32:19 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: New York Subway Line by Line: The Brighton Line, Working Draft posted by Mike Berson on January 22, 1998 at 10:03:09: Except for a short period following the opening of the Christie St. connection, all Brighton Local services went to Coney Island and most Brighton Express services terminated at Brighton Beach. In 1967, they tried doing it the other way around, and found that it slowed the trains waiting to cross-over north of Brighton Beach station, as it is the express tracks that lead into the terminating tracks at Brighton Beach and the local tracks which lead into the through tracks. Some notes: The early 1960s "Banker's Specials" ran local Coney Island to Kings Highway, then express to DeKalb, then via tunnel to Chamber St. (AM rush), deadheading back over the Manhattan Bridge. In the PM rush, they followed the reverse route, deadheading into Manhattan over the bridge. I recall in those days that the Brighton Express used triplex equipment, except for two 6-car sets of standards which were used rush hours for the "Bankers Specials" and mid-days for regular Brighton Express service (Brighton Beach to 57th St.)
        
        Subject: Re: New York Subway Line by Line: The Brighton Line, Working Draft
        Message Number: 762397
        Posted by: Ed Sachs
        Date: Mon Jan 26 12:32:22 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]New York Subway Line by Line: The Brighton Line, Working Draft posted by Mark S Feinman on January 22, 1998 at 00:15:12: You might want to mention the branch to Sheepshead Bay Race Track. You can still see the trackways for the branch south of Neck Rd. station. I'm not sure when it was abandoned, I believe that the race track closed around 1910-1915.
        
        Subject: Re: New York Subway Line by Line: The Brighton Line, Working Draft
        Message Number: 762399
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Mon Jan 26 12:32:27 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]New York Subway Line by Line: The Brighton Line, Working Draft posted by Mark S Feinman on January 22, 1998 at 00:15:12: There appears to be a conflict between the start of service over the Fulton St. El, listed twice as having occurred 1896, and the construction of the ramp to permit the connection shown as 1900.
        
        Subject: Re: New York Subway Line by Line: The Brighton Line, Working Draft
        Message Number: 762407
        Posted by: Steve B
        Date: Mon Jan 26 12:32:48 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: New York Subway Line by Line: The Brighton Line, Working Draft posted by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto on January 22, 1998 at 04:04:59: Well written, indeed. I would suggest including information on when letter markings first appeared on BMT routes. Over the years, BMT rolling stock varied in this regard: the Standards had no bulkhead signs, while the Triplex and multisectional units did. The R-16s, which ran on the Eastern division at first, initially had BMT numbers and IND letters. The R-27 and R-30 cars ushered in BMT letter markings when they debuted in 1960-61. Most of them were assigned to at least the Brighton line at first; some may have gone to the Sea Beach. At that time, Brighton express trains were designated with the letter Q; during the mid-60s they ran on weekdays only (much the same as today's Q). Brighton locals running via the Montague St. tunnel carried a QT marking and ran at all times. The QB ran when the Q wasn't running; it ran on weekends all day and during week nights via the Manhattan Bridge and made all local stops. Unless I'm wrong, Triplex units running on the Brighton line displayed the numeral "1" regardless of whether they ran local or express. (Or did they run as expresses only?) I can still remember seeing QBs of R-27s on the Broadway line in Manhattan on Saturdays in 1967 before the Chrystie St. connection opened. The R-32s continued this letter trend. This letter code coexisted with the older number markings on the Southern Division until the Big Change, when all number markings were officially dropped and letter markings were adopted on the Eastern Division lines.
        
        Subject: Re: New York Subway Line by Line: The Brighton Line, Working Draft
        Message Number: 762411
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Mon Jan 26 12:32:56 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]New York Subway Line by Line: The Brighton Line, Working Draft posted by Mark S Feinman on January 22, 1998 at 00:15:12: I'm not much for history but there is one error in your current history. While the R-68As have been taken off the line, the R-68s have not. They continue to service the entire D line. To this date, the TA has not returned the R-68As and likely won't until the March service changes.
        
        Subject: Re: New York Subway Line by Line: The Brighton Line, Working Draft
        Message Number: 762413
        Posted by: Daniel
        Date: Mon Jan 26 12:33:03 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: New York Subway Line by Line: The Brighton Line, Working Draft posted by Ed Sachs on January 22, 1998 at 13:20:44: Ed: Where do you see this trackway... On the Coney Island-bound side or the Manhattan-bound side? Also, (and this question is to all) did this connection have anything to do with the former Sheepshead Bay branch of the LIRR? Just curious... Danny
        
        Subject: Re: New York Subway Line by Line: The Brighton Line, Working Draft
        Message Number: 762460
        Posted by: Steve B
        Date: Mon Jan 26 12:35:28 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: New York Subway Line by Line: The Brighton Line, Working Draft posted by Mike Berson on January 22, 1998 at 10:03:09: The D officially switched terminals with the QB and QJ on August 18, 1968.

Thread title: I hae a NJT map (was New NYC Subway Map ) (762378)
Started on Mon Jan 26 12:31:20 1998, by Joshua Caesar

Subject: I hae a NJT map (was New NYC Subway Map )
Message Number: 762378
Posted by: Joshua Caesar
Date: Mon Jan 26 12:31:20 1998

In Reply to: [8]Re: New NYC Subway Map (NYCT or MTA??) Attempt #2 posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 21, 1998 at 14:58:13: A few years ago, I went up to a New Jersey Transit ticket window in NY Pern Station, and asked for a map. The ticket guy looked at me funny, and said to me "you want a map??!!" I guess it was the first request he had got for on of these, beacause he did not know what to do. After a minute, he went to the back, pulled out some book, and photocopied an internal map of the NJT rail lines for me. I still have it somewhere, when I find it I will scan it, and then provide a link to it so that Subtalkers can take a looksie. Josh Caesar studlyjc@aol.com
- Subject: Re: I hae a NJT map (was New NYC Subway Map )
- Message Number: 762418
- Posted by: Bootsy
- Date: Mon Jan 26 12:33:24 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]I hae a NJT map (was New NYC Subway Map ) posted by Joshua Caesar on January 22, 1998 at 08:00:55: Does NJ Transit have any published maps of its bus lines?

Thread title: Re: New NYC Subway Map (& Lack of SEPTA Maps) (762380)
Started on Mon Jan 26 12:31:29 1998, by Michael S. Buglak

Subject: Re: New NYC Subway Map (& Lack of SEPTA Maps)
Message Number: 762380
Posted by: Michael S. Buglak
Date: Mon Jan 26 12:31:29 1998

In Reply to: [8]New NYC Subway Map posted by Mark S Feinman on January 21, 1998 at 13:27:32: At least NYCT issues transit maps every year. We here in Philly haven't had a new SEPTA map issued since 1990! It's hard to show someone how to get from Center City Philadelphia to King of Prussia, PA on the Route 125 bus when all the maps still call this line Route 45! Does SEPTA have any plans to issue a new map soon? Michael S. Buglak, Collegeville, PA
- Subject: Re: New NYC Subway Map (& Lack of SEPTA Maps)
- Message Number: 762390
- Posted by: Will
- Date: Mon Jan 26 12:32:02 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]Re: New NYC Subway Map (& Lack of SEPTA Maps) posted by Michael S. Buglak on January 22, 1998 at 08:50:20: Unfortunately, SEPTA (as far as I know) does not have any immediate plans to issue new system maps. Recently, they have been issuing new "Center City Transit Maps" on a seasonal basis, but the only places to get these seems to be in Suburban Station or at the headquarters lobby. These maps have an excellent view of all the rail and bus lines in Center City, with a frequency guide on the back. Their creation was "pushed" by management since so many new people are visiting our fair city since the new Convention Center opened. A similar map for University City was issued when the new Regional Rail station opened there about a year and a half ago. But, obviously, both of these maps do not show the entire system. Also about a year and a half ago SEPTA printed little pocket-sized versions of its rail "High Speed System" map. This is the map they post in stations and in rail cars. I got a couple and have never seen them reissued since then. Like the Vignelli New York subway map, this map distorts geography and its usefullness is limited. It is also VERY difficult for strangers to work out the Regional Rail routes on these maps. At times, the Transit Museum Store prints simple 8 1/2" x 11" versions of this map to hand out to folks who always ask for a "subway map - the free one". Recently, this map has been slightly updated by the graphics folks who put a color assignment (at the terminal station only) on each Regional Rail line, so both the "Reading" and "Pennsylvania" sides are easy to match. Unfortunately, errors continue to creep up, such as: 1) There is no longer any Amtrak service between Lindenwold and Atlantic City; 2) R5 terminates at Downingtown - service past here to Parkesburg has been cut; 3) R2 service now goes all the way to Newark, Delaware; 4) Eastwick station is now open on the R1 Airport line; and 5) It isn't made apparent that the NJ Transit Atlantic City line serves 30th Street Station. Keep in mind that the "1990 map" you mention was done in two different versions. The "blue" suburban map and the "orange" city map. What REALLY infuriated me when I first visited Philly was that these maps (I had to get them at the newsstand at 30th Street) ARE NOT FREE!!! SEPTA charges $3.95 (or something similar) for each of them. To me this is worse than WMATA's bus system maps which you also have to pay for. I think this is just bad public information policy. Especially since I grew up in "The City" (if you have to ask which one then you should probably visit another site...) where borough bus maps and subway maps are gratis. Sometimes, I think New Yorkers simply do not realize how good they've got it. I've been told all the usual phony reasons for not having a system map readily available: they cost too much to print, they're hard to keep in stock at each booth, no one really uses them, etc. My answer is this: About a month ago the Baltimore City Paper ran a long cover story by one of their reporters who elected to be "car free" for a week. This story is generally a sad and telling commentary on the state of mass transit in America today. The reporter complained for about 3 or 4 paragraphs about the lack of an easily available system map and how she had to spend entire nights with stacks of schedules "learning" the system. Wonder why she went back into her car? At least the Maryland MTA printed a free "Ride Guide" about two years ago, but it is VERY hard to find. Of course, the Maryland MTA has a new "Tourist Ride Guide" (which primarily shows the Inner Harbor/downtown area) which is easy to find. Don't get me wrong - these types of maps are fine ideas - but shouldn't the folks who live beyond downtown in Philly or Baltimore have free maps as well? Two final points: Alot of the "day planner" types of books have a refill available; I've seen one with a mini version of the SEPTA rail map on one side and Center City buses on the other. The "line maps" which are posted in subway cars only have been recently redone on the Broad Street Subway.
  - Subject: Re: New NYC Subway Map (& Lack of SEPTA Maps)
  - Message Number: 762401
  - Posted by: DB
  - Date: Mon Jan 26 12:32:32 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: New NYC Subway Map (& Lack of SEPTA Maps) posted by Michael S. Buglak on January 22, 1998 at 08:50:20: Re the SEPTA: Though it is not a system map in any event such as the other systems use, if you pick up the FREE timetables they list a map with all the conncections for that route: i.e. the MFSE lists all connecting bus routes, etc. The R3 also features a similar map. Again, I know that this is not a new system wide map, but at least it is current enough to list 125 as the bus route to KOP. Well we are on the subject of updates, can I assume that SEPTA is waiting into the renovations of the Market Sub/El before replacing the signage within the stations? I know in an earlier post, I pointed out the lack of sinage in stations, but many refer to "proposed" stations that have been opened. Also, Isn't Bridge-Pratt supposed to be called "Frankford Terminal" - - even though the sinage still reads Bridge Pratt? The new M-4s say Frankford, the maps at the (very nicely) rehabbed el-s on the Frankford end refer it to "Frankford Terminal" But the actual station reads "Bridge-Pratt"
    - Subject: Re: New NYC Subway Map (& Lack of SEPTA Maps)
    - Message Number: 762458
    - Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
    - Date: Mon Jan 26 12:35:23 1998
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: New NYC Subway Map (& Lack of SEPTA Maps) posted by Will on January 22, 1998 at 10:56:46: Sad to say, charging for transit maps goes very far back in Philadelphia. In the 60s SEPTA's predecessor, the PTC, sold the map for 25 cents. In fact, it is the same map that is was still sold by SEPTA a recently, just updated. The actual city template and line depictions (thin red lines for busses, black solid and dotted lines for trains, thin dotted lines for the subway-surface lines underground) are exactly the same. Back in the old days, one bought the map at newsstands; they were unavailable at subway stations. Recently, book stores and SEPTA sold them. Maybe there are none available because someone finally told them that their 45-year old map design could be updated, possibly even on a computer. Let's hope that is the reason and that someday they will put a new one out. Some of the things SEPTA has done are very intelligent, like having 15-minute owl "subway line" service using busses rather than 30-minute owl service with trains, with all 4 busses (for the 2 main lines) meeting in Center City at one bus stop every 15 minutes. (Waiting at a completely deserted train station at 2 AM and paying the conductor on the one-car train was scary, as was walking through the tunnels to change trains.) They have also done some foolish things, like letting the city convert Chestnut St. into a busses-only street, pretty much making many of the really classy stores in Philadelphia move to Walnut Street. Chestnut St. used to look like a leisurely 5th Avenue. It was the only street outside NYC that my parents really loved walking along. Not any more. Oh, well....

Thread title: What changes are we expected to see in NYCT bus & subway service on March (762388)
Started on Mon Jan 26 12:31:57 1998, by .

Subject: What changes are we expected to see in NYCT bus & subway service on March
Message Number: 762388
Posted by: .
Date: Mon Jan 26 12:31:57 1998
- Subject: What changes are we expected to see in NYCT bus & subway service on March
- Message Number: 762389
- Posted by: .
- Date: Mon Jan 26 12:31:59 1998

Thread title: Re: LA Subway Funding Cutoff; update (762398)
Started on Mon Jan 26 12:32:24 1998, by Gary Jacobi

Subject: Re: LA Subway Funding Cutoff; update
Message Number: 762398
Posted by: Gary Jacobi
Date: Mon Jan 26 12:32:24 1998

In Reply to: [7]LA Subway Funding Cutoff posted by Gary Jacobi on January 21, 1998 at 16:36:56: This is a cutoff of Federal funds, but apparently that is(or was)their main source of money. The Blue line will be finished, and the red line built out to Universal City, but no extensions to the west or east. Apparently, the spectre of all this money down a rathole has started Congress questioning the overall efficacy of funding new transit systems nationwide. My source's personal feelings are that there will be no sale of surplus cars, that they can be used on already built sections.

Thread title: Park Avenue highway tunnels (762400)
Started on Mon Jan 26 12:32:29 1998, by geoffrey skelsey

Subject: Park Avenue highway tunnels
Message Number: 762400
Posted by: geoffrey skelsey
Date: Mon Jan 26 12:32:29 1998

Can anyone help with an aspect of the present Park Avenue highway tunnels, now in use between 33rd and 40th streets? As I understand it these were originally part of the NY & H RR before Grand Central moved uptown in the 1870s. I have read somewhere that they were then used for street railway service, eventually electrified, and in operation until 1935. But a plan I have of NY surface transportation in 1909 doesn't shew them. Were they in fact part of the city street railway system, TARS or whatever?Any help gratefully received.
- Subject: Re: Park Avenue highway tunnels
- Message Number: 762403
- Posted by: Fernando Perez
- Date: Mon Jan 26 12:32:37 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Park Avenue highway tunnels posted by geoffrey skelsey on January 22, 1998 at 14:41:40: The tunnel was in fact used by New York Railways "Green lines" until March of 1936. The trackage was owned by the New York and Harlem Railroad and leased. Because of severe congestion at Madison and 42 St the Madison Av trolleys turned east at 42 st and then south onto Park and 4th av's. Where they entered the tunnel and exited at 33rd St. There is a picture of a trolley exiting this portal in the book New York Railways The green line. ISBN#0-934088-30-6 You can buy this book at several trolley museums and I just saw a copy of it last weekend at the Baltimore Streetcar museum.
  - Subject: Re: Park Avenue highway tunnels
  - Message Number: 762425
  - Posted by: Dan Lawrence
  - Date: Mon Jan 26 12:33:40 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Park Avenue highway tunnels posted by Fernando Perez on January 22, 1998 at 15:44:49: Fernando, Please recheck your e-mail address. Either it's bad or the AOL mail server was down (again).
    - Subject: Re: Park Avenue highway tunnels
    - Message Number: 762431
    - Posted by: Joshua Caesar
    - Date: Mon Jan 26 12:34:03 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: Park Avenue highway tunnels posted by Dan Lawrence on January 22, 1998 at 23:23:15: I think the problem is that he put a space in his e-mail address, and therefore the "mailto: " html tag won't function properly. AOL will allow e-mail addresses with spaces in them, but for internet e-mail the spaces have to be ignored.
      - Subject: Re: Park Avenue highway tunnels
      - Message Number: 762586
      - Posted by: C A Warren
      - Date: Fri Jan 30 14:22:49 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Park Avenue highway tunnels posted by Fernando Perez on January 22, 1998 at 15:44:49: Thanks for more info on the Green Line. I had inquired about the Central Park Traverse Line.

Thread title: information about JFK express (762404)
Started on Mon Jan 26 12:32:40 1998, by Daniele

Subject: information about JFK express
Message Number: 762404
Posted by: Daniele
Date: Mon Jan 26 12:32:40 1998

In Reply to: [8]Re: Park Avenue highway tunnels posted by Fernando Perez on January 22, 1998 at 15:44:49: Hi ! My name is Daniele, I'm from Italy and I would like to know something about the brief service of the JFK express
- Subject: Re: information about JFK express
- Message Number: 762423
- Posted by: Wayne Johnson
- Date: Mon Jan 26 12:33:35 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]information about JFK express posted by Daniele on January 22, 1998 at 16:01:54: Daniele, The JFK Express began service in the late 1970's. It operated from 57th Street/6 Ave, in Midtown Manhattan to the Howard Beach station in Queens where passengers then transferred to a shuttle bus which stopped at all terminals. The JFK Express made stops along 6th Ave at 57th St, 47-50th St-Rockefeller Ctr., 42nd St, 34th St, West 4th St, and Canal Street, then Chambers St-World Trade Ctr, Broadway-Nassau Street and one stop in Downtown Brooklyn at Jay Street-Boro Hall. It then operated non-stop to Howard Beach. The service operated daily from approx 5 AM - 1 AM. It operated at 20 minute intervals. The equipment on the JFK Express were R-46 and at one point one could spot the occasional R-38 on the JFK Express. In it's last years during the late 1980's R-44 cars were used.
  - Subject: Re: information about JFK express
  - Message Number: 762432
  - Posted by: Adam
  - Date: Mon Jan 26 12:34:06 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: information about JFK express posted by Wayne Johnson on January 22, 1998 at 22:39:24: I know that the fare on the JFK Express was higher than the usual fair then, but do you know what it was?
    - Subject: Re: information about JFK express
    - Message Number: 762437
    - Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
    - Date: Mon Jan 26 12:34:17 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: information about JFK express posted by Adam on January 23, 1998 at 00:41:48: Don't know the fare, but anyone remember the ads?? "Take the train to the plane, the train to the plane..." AFAIR, it wasn't exactly a spectacular success, which doesn't speak well for a new line to the airports...
      - Subject: Re: information about JFK express
      - Message Number: 762439
      - Posted by: Todd Glickman
      - Date: Mon Jan 26 12:34:22 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: information about JFK express posted by Philip Nasadowski on January 23, 1998 at 02:36:26: I vaugely remember the fare being $2.00 or $2.50. It was collected by the conductor on board (that is, the "additional fare" over and above the token used to enter the system). There was also a TA cop on every train.
        
        Subject: Re: information about JFK express
        Message Number: 762441
        Posted by: aaron
        Date: Mon Jan 26 12:34:32 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: information about JFK express posted by Todd Glickman on January 23, 1998 at 07:53:08: No, no! The fair was much higher, $5 or $6. Everyone got smart and realized you could just go on the "A" train as it ran on the same track as the JFK during express hours...
        
        Subject: Re: information about JFK express
        Message Number: 762442
        Posted by: Steve B
        Date: Mon Jan 26 12:34:35 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: information about JFK express posted by aaron on January 23, 1998 at 08:14:28: I rode the JFK Express once, in October 1984, and paid $5.10 on the train. The subway fare at the time was 90 cents, so it came to $6.00 when all was said and done.
        
        Subject: Re: information about JFK express
        Message Number: 762445
        Posted by: Wayne Johnson
        Date: Mon Jan 26 12:34:45 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: information about JFK express posted by Steve B on January 23, 1998 at 08:52:11: Yes, I believe the fare was $6.00 when the service was discontinued. When it started in the late 1970 I think the fare was either $2.50 or $3.00. Either way you paid your regular fare (then .50) and the extra was collected on the train.
        
        Subject: Re: information about JFK express
        Message Number: 762466
        Posted by: david vartanoff
        Date: Mon Jan 26 12:35:48 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: information about JFK express posted by Wayne Johnson on January 23, 1998 at 09:06:07: Yes it was a premium fare which in theory might have been justified by one security for travelers and luggage and two speed. The train was way too slow even though it operated as an "express" and so the one time I rode convinced me that it was a loser. As regular readers here likely are aware there is a plan posted at a linked site outlining a far superior service achievable at cost too low to include enough corruption to be -politically feasible. see Penny Bridge Station.
        
        Subject: Re: information about JFK express
        Message Number: 762467
        Posted by: david vartanoff
        Date: Mon Jan 26 12:35:50 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: information about JFK express posted by Wayne Johnson on January 23, 1998 at 09:06:07: Yes it was a premium fare which in theory might have been justified by one security for travelers and luggage and two speed. The train was way too slow even though it operated as an "express" and so the one time I rode convinced me that it was a loser. As regular readers here likely are aware there is a plan posted at a linked site outlining a far superior service achievable at cost too low to include enough corruption to be -politically feasible. see Penny Bridge Station.

Thread title: Chicago's Green (East 63rd St./Cottage Grove) Line (762405)
Started on Mon Jan 26 12:32:42 1998, by Timothy

Subject: Chicago's Green (East 63rd St./Cottage Grove) Line
Message Number: 762405
Posted by: Timothy
Date: Mon Jan 26 12:32:42 1998

When I was in Chicago back in September, I rode the Green Line to Cottage Grove, which is currently the last stop on the former Jackson Park Line, and I've noticed that the old el structure still existed beyond the Cottage Grove Station. A friend of mine went to Chicago last weekend, and also rode the Green Line to Cottage Grove, but he said that there is no el structure east of Cottage Grove Station. Was it demolished? If so, When? Are there still any existing remnants of the old Jackson Park Line el structure along 63rd Street, between Cottage Grove, and Jackson Park? Fortunately, I did manage to get some photos of the old el structure, as seen looking east from Cottage Grove, both at street level, under the el, and from platform level.
- Subject: Re: Chicago's Green (East 63rd St./Cottage Grove) Line
- Message Number: 762408
- Posted by: BJ
- Date: Mon Jan 26 12:32:50 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Chicago's Green (East 63rd St./Cottage Grove) Line posted by Timothy on January 22, 1998 at 16:36:53: The old green Line El Structure was started to be torn down a few months ago and isn't complete yet. It will take a while before it is completely gone. In my personal opion as a Chicagoan, ( and many people agree with me) the old structure should have been taken down a long time ago or atleast when the CTA redid the green line. Even if they wanted to build the El farther east then Cottage Grove they should have torn it down right away. Old Structure is no good, it was completly rebuilt on the part of the line that still is in use in that are. Even as a subway fan, I would rather read about old EL structure, then have the city leave it up. IT does no good and just makes the neighborhood look poor. It looks crappy having old rusted out steel above the street that looks like it could fall over at any minute. On the other hand, I'm glad the green line was renovated and is now running again. It is a great way for people to get around. Especially during rush hours.
  - Subject: Re: Chicago's Green (East 63rd St./Cottage Grove) Line
  - Message Number: 762412
  - Posted by: Alan Follett
  - Date: Mon Jan 26 12:33:00 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Chicago's Green (East 63rd St./Cottage Grove) Line posted by BJ on January 22, 1998 at 19:14:59: The Jackson Park line east of Cottage Grove lost most of its reason for existence in the early Eighties, after the CTA's bridge over the IC main was condemned, forcing suspension of service east of University Avenue. The original terminal at Stony Island was a major bus connection point; University was not. In the reconstruction a couple of years ago the structure was rebuilt as far east as Dorchester, just west of the IC, about halfway between University and the former Stony Island terminal; since there were no plans to restore the bridge over the IC, the rebuilt structure was level, without the eastbound upgrade which had been needed to clear the IC. After the Green Line reconstruction was underway, community sentiment developed against operation east of Cottage Grove; apparently the idea was that the traffic obstruction and visual detriment of the "L" structure interfered with plans for redevelopment of 63rd Street, and outweighed the transportation advantages of the extra 3/4 mile of service. (NIMBYism isn't just confined to suburbia!) Result, the newly-rebuilt structure was torn down beginning last September 27 without ever having seen a train.

Thread title: Lack of SEPTA Maps (Also Answer to DB's Question) (762406)
Started on Mon Jan 26 12:32:45 1998, by Michael S. Buglak

Subject: Lack of SEPTA Maps (Also Answer to DB's Question)
Message Number: 762406
Posted by: Michael S. Buglak
Date: Mon Jan 26 12:32:45 1998

In Reply to: [8]Re: New NYC Subway Map (& Lack of SEPTA Maps) posted by DB on January 22, 1998 at 14:48:04: It's true that each SEPTA route timetable lists the NUMBERS of the connecting lines, but it usually doesn't list the DESTINATION of them except for the rail lines. For example, the Market-Frankford timetable lists "125" as a connecting bus, but it doesn't say anywhere that Route 125 goes to King of Prussia, or that you can also get to King of Prussia by 1) Taking the Route 124 bus which also runs from Center City to K.O.P., along with Route 125, or 2) Taking the R6 Norristown to Norristown Transportation Center, then the Route 99 bus to K.O.P. or 3) Taking the Market-Frankford Line to 69th Street, then the Route 100 trolley to King Manor, then Route 99 to K.O.P., among other ways. The point I was making is that a stranger to SEPTA would not know that a certain route may or may not go to his/her destination. It's much easier to look up "how to get to" on 1 map than a hundred or more timetables. (See Will's reply to my post for another view on the subject.) As for DB's question on "Bridge-Pratt" vs. "Frankford Terminal", they mean one & the same facility, but SEPTA seems to use "Bridge-Pratt" or "Bridge Street" when referring to the elevated station, & "Frankford Terminal" when referring to the associated bus/trackless trolley terminal at the station. I agree that it's confusing to someone not familiar with SEPTA! I do understand that the new terminal at that location is known by SEPTA as "Frankford Transportation Center". (Not that it makes this situation any easier to understand, but SEPTA has never been known for common sense...) Michael S. Buglak

Thread title: Path Signals & Speed Limits (762414)
Started on Mon Jan 26 12:33:05 1998, by Steve

Subject: Path Signals & Speed Limits
Message Number: 762414
Posted by: Steve
Date: Mon Jan 26 12:33:05 1998

The issue of speed on PATH was raised a while back. I recently received a copy of the 1973 PATH rule book. Per their rule #100, the following speed restrictions are listed. Maximum speed within any tunnel is 40 MPH Maximum speed otherwise is 55 between the portals an Newark as follows: Westbound between signals 747Z to 18LX Eastbound between signals 58RX to R8X I'm currently going over their (very odd) signal aspects and indications and hope to have them scanned this weekend.

Thread title: Pennsylvania Electrification to Penn Station (762416)
Started on Mon Jan 26 12:33:18 1998, by Doug in Boston

Subject: Pennsylvania Electrification to Penn Station
Message Number: 762416
Posted by: Doug in Boston
Date: Mon Jan 26 12:33:18 1998

I know that the diesel/electric locomotive switch-over at New Haven is done because New York City passed a law in the early part of the century forbidding steam locomotives from entering the City. But how did the Pennsy handle this prior to electrification in the 1930s? Were trains coming from the south switched from steam to electric at some point ? I've never seen anything on this.
- Subject: Re: Pennsylvania Electrification to Penn Station
- Message Number: 762417
- Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
- Date: Mon Jan 26 12:33:22 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Pennsylvania Electrification to Penn Station posted by Doug in Boston on January 22, 1998 at 20:29:03: Well, when Penn station was opened, it opened first to LIRR traffic, on the 600 (now 750) volt DC third rail system. The tunnels to NJ, when opened, were equipped with thirds rail too, all the way out to the "Manhattan Transfer", where you switched to steam or electric, depending on if you were entering or leaving NY. This rail still remains to in the tunnel, but was removed beyond it. Like the NY central, I believe PRR used a "overhead third rail" system for the loner switches, to prevent the DD-1 locomotives from getting stuck on a switch. The LIRR sometimes used a flatcar with jumper cables and shoes (!) to bridge the gaps. Of course the MP 54s didn't have this problem. When the wires were strung up, the transfer was eleminated. Around 1917, the Hell Gate bridge was built, along with a connection to the NH main line to Boston - and the wire was extended to New Haven from Stamford. The New York Central never ran A.C. equipment, they were the first to electrify, up to Croton-Harmon and the Harlem line. These are DC third rail, but under running, as opposed to the LIRR's over running rail. New Haven line trains run DC up to Mount Vernon, and switch (on the fly!) to A.C. A few other systems in the US switch from rail to wire, but I believe only the New Haven also changes from low voltage DC to high voltage AC. PRR commuter trains into Penn were always AC I think. The Hoboken lines were run by Lacawanna, and were DC 3kv overhead, and were the only DC 3kv MUs used in the US I think. Note that current Septic and NJT equipment are very simallar. The NJT stuff kinda looks crude with its open resistors on top - the Septa stuff has an M-2 style cover over its roof stuff.
  - Subject: Re: Pennsylvania Electrification to Penn Station
  - Message Number: 762470
  - Posted by: Andrew Byler
  - Date: Mon Jan 26 12:35:58 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Pennsylvania Electrification to Penn Station posted by Philip Nasadowski on January 22, 1998 at 21:17:30: Having worked for the company the produced the Silverliners for Septa and the Jersey Arrows for NJT, I can attest that these were nearly idenitcal. There are a few minor differences. 1) Jersey Arrows always had the pocket doors in the center of the car, the Silverliners have never had these installed, and only the Silverliner IV's have them. 2) Jersey Arrow II's and III's have different trucks, as they are permitted 80 mph on Amtrak, while the Silverliner IV's are permitted to 95 mph. I had to check this in the Amtrak employee timetable, as the II's and III's used to be allowed 100 mph. Anyone know the reason for this change? 3) The differing appearances of the roof cowls, as mentioned. For general information, Silverliner II's are the same as Jersey Arrow I's (now converted to push pull coaches). Silverliner III's are unique - they are nicknamed the Lateliners because of tardy delivery. Silverliner IV's are equivalent to Jersey Arrow II's. Jersey Arrow III's are an improved version. Some preliminary plans do exist for Silverliner V's/jersey Arrow IV's, but nothing has ever come of them. The actual classifications are, original intended service area, etc.: Septa Pioneer IV's (6 built, all retired) - 75 mph MAID - No. 244-248 (PRR) Silverliner II's (55 built) - 85 mph MAIB - No. 201-219 (PRR), 251-269 (PRR), 9001-9017 (Reading) Silverliner III's (20 built) - 85 mph MAIC - No. 220-239 (PRR) Silverliner IV's (232 built) - 95 mph MAIE (single car) - No. 270-303 (PRR), 9018-9031 (Reading) Note: No. 270-275, 9029-9031 renumbered into 401-410 MAIF (married pairs) - No. 304-399 (PRR), 101-188 (Reading) Note: Several renumbered into 411-426 Jersey Arrow I's (33 (?) built) - 85 mph MAIB - (???) Jersey Arrow II's (70 built) - 80/100 mph MAIG - No. 1234-1303 (PRR) Jersey Arrow III's (230 built) - 80/100 mph MAIH - 1304-1533 (PRR and DL&W) Andy
    - Subject: Re: Pennsylvania Electrification to Penn Station
    - Message Number: 762472
    - Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
    - Date: Mon Jan 26 12:36:05 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: Pennsylvania Electrification to Penn Station posted by Andrew Byler on January 23, 1998 at 19:52:54: I was on a Septa train that did get up to 95, but it sure didn't hold it that long, and it took quite some time getting that fast. How much do those things weigh?? What's their HP ratings?? I'm asking because I was surprised the train was acting sluggish - I know New Haven line stuff can hit 80 -90 _with dead cars_. Tey are also supposed to be able to do 120, the LIRR m-1's can sure break 100...
      - Subject:
      - Message Number:
      - Posted by:
      - Date: Wed Dec 31 19:00:00 1969

Thread title: Could Someone Post the New Subway Map? (762419)
Started on Mon Jan 26 12:33:26 1998, by Nick

Subject: Could Someone Post the New Subway Map?
Message Number: 762419
Posted by: Nick
Date: Mon Jan 26 12:33:26 1998

Hello, It was great to see the '85 map yesterday...it brought back some memories! I was wondering if someone could post the new subway map...it sounds like it has some nice new features. I'll pick one up eventually, but I never know when my next trip to NYC will be. Thank You!-Nick
- Subject: Re: Could Someone Post the New Subway Map?
- Message Number: 762443
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Mon Jan 26 12:34:37 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Could Someone Post the New Subway Map? posted by Nick on January 22, 1998 at 21:45:40: I'd suggest looking at the official MTA web site for it.
  - Subject: Re: Could Someone Post the New Subway Map?
  - Message Number: 762447
  - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
  - Date: Mon Jan 26 12:34:50 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: Could Someone Post the New Subway Map? posted by David Pirmann on January 23, 1998 at 09:01:58: The map available at the MTA website was changed months ago. Presumably the delay in announcement was needed to get copies printed. The only easy way we out here in the sticks can be sure is for someone with the newly printed map in hand to check it against the website version, and report if they are one and the same.
    - Subject: Re: Could Someone Post the New Subway Map?
    - Message Number: 762570
    - Posted by: Todd Glickman
    - Date: Fri Jan 30 14:21:59 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: Could Someone Post the New Subway Map? posted by Alex on January 24, 1998 at 23:43:20: I have been successful in picking up a copy of The Map at about 50% of the stations. They limit you to one per customer. As of yesterday, 47-50 St./6th Ave. had a large supply. It won't be easy to "post" it, as it is much larger than the average scanner!
      - Subject: Re: Could Someone Post the New Subway Map?
      - Message Number: 762615
      - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
      - Date: Fri Jan 30 14:24:14 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Could Someone Post the New Subway Map? posted by Alex on January 24, 1998 at 23:43:20: Thanks, Alex, for the crystal clear answer to question number one. Since my original post is wiped away (Awfully quickly, I might say, Dave):), let me restate my wish that someone call MTA and ask if THEY intend to update their website map.
        
        Subject: Re: Could Someone Post the New Subway Map?
        Message Number: 762617
        Posted by: David Pirmann
        Date: Fri Jan 30 14:24:19 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Could Someone Post the New Subway Map? posted by Gary Jacobi on January 26, 1998 at 12:36:41: Gary-- it's either expire them quickly so as to keep about 100 posts online, or two things happens: A) people complain it takes too long to load B) the software starts to screw up the posts because it takes too long to rewrite the index each time....
        
        Subject: Re: Could Someone Post the New Subway Map?
        Message Number: 762631
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Fri Jan 30 14:24:59 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Could Someone Post the New Subway Map? posted by David Pirmann on January 26, 1998 at 13:04:22: I understand the need to clean house, but this is the first time I've noticed it on a Monday. I often don't get on the web over the weekend, and hope to have some feedback from weekend-only web surfers when I get back to the office. This is the first time my previous weeks posts were gone, and I couldn't check.
        
        Subject: Re: Could Someone Post the New Subway Map?
        Message Number: 762634
        Posted by: John Betancourt
        Date: Fri Jan 30 14:25:05 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Could Someone Post the New Subway Map? posted by Gary Jacobi on January 26, 1998 at 18:47:34: I have maps which are quite new, and I see confusements!!! The D,Q train line has me confused bcause the Q train is not in yellow on the map, but in the terminal in queens near JFK, I've seen it in yellow! Please help me clear my mind! John Betancourt mustangboy15@hotmail.com P.S. I am a e-mail person on the weekends and on tuesdays thursdays! I need a person to tell a problem!
        
        Subject: Re: Could Someone Post the New Subway Map?
        Message Number: 762646
        Posted by: Peter Rosa
        Date: Fri Jan 30 14:25:37 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Could Someone Post the New Subway Map? posted by John Betancourt on January 26, 1998 at 19:02:56: The Q train is supposed to run on the Broadway (now N and R) line, which is indeed colored yellow, but because of the never-ending Manhattan Bridge fiasco it's been running on the 6th Avenue (B/D/F) line for the last several years (and probably another 5 to come). The 6th Avenue line has that orange-y color on the map. The Q train's terminal is at Brighton Beach in Brooklyn, nowhere near Kennedy airport. The closest line to the airport is the A, which has a blue symbol; other relatively close ones are the E (also blue) and the J/Z (brown). Somewhat farther away is the F at 179th Street, which has the 6th Avneue orange-y color.

Thread title: Re: Frankford Transportation Center (Was Lack of SEPTA Maps (Also Answer to (762422)
Started on Mon Jan 26 12:33:33 1998, by .

Subject: Re: Frankford Transportation Center (Was Lack of SEPTA Maps (Also Answer to
Message Number: 762422
Posted by: .
Date: Mon Jan 26 12:33:33 1998
- Subject: Re: Frankford Transportation Center (Was Lack of SEPTA Maps (Also Answer to
- Message Number: 762440
- Posted by: .
- Date: Mon Jan 26 12:34:29 1998

Thread title: Talk on 63rd St. tunnel... (762429)
Started on Mon Jan 26 12:33:55 1998, by Jeffrey Davis

Subject: Talk on 63rd St. tunnel...
Message Number: 762429
Posted by: Jeffrey Davis
Date: Mon Jan 26 12:33:55 1998

Did anyone make it to the talk on the 63rd St. tunnel at Cooper Union earlier this evening? I couldnt attend on account of work, and am particularly interested to hear what is planned for that line(s), western Queens, and The Grand Design. A very brief summary of the talk would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Thread title: Commuter Horror Stories (762430)
Started on Mon Jan 26 12:34:00 1998, by Steve

Subject: Commuter Horror Stories
Message Number: 762430
Posted by: Steve
Date: Mon Jan 26 12:34:00 1998

In Reply to: [8]Just another ride home posted by aaron on January 21, 1998 at 12:49:51: Tuesday AM, I was on LIRR train 2009 (5:29 from Ronkonkoma) As we passed through Bellerose, the Conductor radio'd the Command Center to report that the 3rd West car was infested with mice. The person on the other end of the radio conversation told the Conductor that they would swap the equipment at Penn Station. What he should have told him was to "Pick up a cat in Jamaica". Let's face it, there are horror stories everywhere. It's just that in NY there are more of them because we have more people, more trains, and many more skels.
- Subject: Re: Commuter Horror Stories
- Message Number: 762438
- Posted by: Sammy
- Date: Mon Jan 26 12:34:19 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Commuter Horror Stories posted by Steve on January 22, 1998 at 23:56:22: I'm afraid Steve, as per usual, you have things a bit wrong. See, there are plenty of vagrant peoples and beggers and con artists, etc. What the damn transit authority does not realize is that the longer trains sit, the more opportunity there is like this stuff to occur. If the conductor had any brains, he would have radioed ahead and at least gotten the first train to abut the platform. People could have then left the train and sought other means of getting to where they are supposed to go. As for the MTA, their brainless "planning for situations" can render the whole system impotent. If I was that woman, I'd sue the MTA for every penny it had. I think those at the MTA should get their heads out from up their arses and do something about it.
  - Subject: Re: Commuter Horror Stories
  - Message Number: 762451
  - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
  - Date: Mon Jan 26 12:35:02 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: Commuter Horror Stories posted by Sammy on January 23, 1998 at 05:11:52: Let me give my reading as to why good decisions are so seldom made by bureaucrats and their employees. If the operator of the aformentioned "Barf train" had thought about passing the signal and getting the first car up to the platform, he would have considered the likelyhood of repremand versus the possible payoff for using his head. A citation for preventing chunks from being blown all over a valued customer? Obviously not going to happen! And so we all become unresponsive to the public because all we remember of co-workers exercising individual initiative is their punishment!
    - Subject: Re: Commuter Horror Stories
    - Message Number: 762635
    - Posted by: J.Betancourt
    - Date: Fri Jan 30 14:25:07 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: Commuter Horror Stories posted by Steve on January 24, 1998 at 00:00:24: Try picturing a #6 train Chopping a Rat!!! ( The train takes it like a little boom!!) Or try looking at a number 4 train key a light about 5 minutes behind a 5 train! John Betancourt mustangboy15@ hotmail.com

Thread title: Sheepshead Bay Race Track (762448)
Started on Mon Jan 26 12:34:54 1998, by Ed Sachs

Subject: Sheepshead Bay Race Track
Message Number: 762448
Posted by: Ed Sachs
Date: Mon Jan 26 12:34:54 1998

In Reply to: [8]Re: New York Subway Line by Line: The Brighton Line, Working Draft posted by Daniel on January 22, 1998 at 20:01:27: South of Neck Rd. station, on the southbound (Coney Island Bound) side, you can see a descending trackway. Around Ave. X, there is an underpass below the tracks where the southbound trains to the race track turned off. I doubt that the northbound side trackway still exists, probably gone when they built houses along E. 16th St. in the 1960s. Also at Neck Rd. (and also at Ave M/Elm Ave.), I believe that you can still see stairs which led to the Manhattan Beach RR stations just east of the Brighton line. More on the race track: I believe that it covered an area which extended from Ave. X to Ave. Z, from Ocean Ave. to a few blocks east of Nostrand Ave. I remember in the 1950s some vacant lots which had remnants of grandstand foundations.
- Subject: Re: Sheepshead Bay Race Track
- Message Number: 762479
- Posted by: Andrew Huie
- Date: Mon Jan 26 12:36:30 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Sheepshead Bay Race Track posted by Ed Sachs on January 23, 1998 at 12:25:24: You mean the stairways to the Manhattan Beach RR are at the Brighton stations, or are they a few blocks east? I thought the RR was some distance from the Brighton line.
  - Subject: Re: Sheepshead Bay Race Track
  - Message Number: 762568
  - Posted by: Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto
  - Date: Fri Jan 30 14:21:55 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Sheepshead Bay Race Track posted by Andrew Huie on January 23, 1998 at 22:34:08: **Right** next to (east of) the Brighton Line.

Thread title: Triplex Head End Signs (762449)
Started on Mon Jan 26 12:34:56 1998, by Ed Sachs

Subject: Triplex Head End Signs
Message Number: 762449
Posted by: Ed Sachs
Date: Mon Jan 26 12:34:56 1998

In Reply to: [8]Re: New York Subway Line by Line: The Brighton Line, Working Draft posted by Steve B on January 22, 1998 at 18:26:00: The Triplexes were generally not used on the Brighton Local (although they did appear occasionally, and did then carry the number '1'). For a brief period (around 1962), they were used on Saturday Brighton Beach - Franklin Ave. local service, and carried the number '7' (at that time, Saturday Q train ran Coney Island - Astoria, via bridge, express in Brooklyn, local in Manhattan). One unique feature of the Triplexes was that you could tell a 'via bridge' from a 'via tunnel' train from the head end sign. The 'via bridge' trains had the head end route number and destination illuminated in green, the 'via tunnel' trains had them illuminated in white. (The Saturday '7' line service mentioned above was 'via tunnel').
- Subject: Re: Triplex Head End Signs
- Message Number: 762599
- Posted by: Steve B
- Date: Fri Jan 30 14:23:34 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Triplex Head End Signs posted by Ed Sachs on January 23, 1998 at 12:34:37: I know about the green/white illumination of the bulkhead signs on Triplex units, having read Brian Cudahy's excellent book, "Under the Sidewalks of New York". Unfortunately, I never got to ride them in revenue service. I rode the subway for the first time on July 21, 1965, literally days before the last Triplex units were withdrawn. The first train I rode was (I'm pretty sure) an N made up of brand-spanking new R-32s, which I boarded at 36th St.-4th Ave. Back then, the side destination signs were illuminated in green on these cars; the upper signs on the first train I rode said "57th St.", hence my conclusion it was an N train. I have seen the Triplex unit displayed at the Transit Museum; a train of Triplex units was used in "Class of '44".

Thread title: Theater Service (762450)
Started on Mon Jan 26 12:34:59 1998, by Ed Sachs

Subject: Theater Service
Message Number: 762450
Posted by: Ed Sachs
Date: Mon Jan 26 12:34:59 1998

In Reply to: [8]Re: New York Subway Line by Line: The Brighton Line, Working Draft posted by Mark S Feinman on January 22, 1998 at 12:26:10: I believe that the Theater Service was the 'via Bridge Local' night service. Until the late 50s, the Brighton Express ran Mon - Sat, AM rush through early evening (around 7pm). From about 7pm to around midnight, the 'via Bridge Local' or 'Theater Specials' ran local, via bridge, 57 St. - Coney Island. After midnight, the Brighton Locals ran via tunnel. I think at that time that the sunday Brighton Locals ran via bridge -- I don't know if this was also considered Theater Service.
- Subject: Re: Theater Service
- Message Number: 762566
- Posted by: Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto
- Date: Fri Jan 30 14:21:51 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Theater Service posted by Ed Sachs on January 23, 1998 at 12:56:54: Mark, Ed explained it perfectly. Ed, now that you have revealed that you are one of the rare ones with knowledge of services before the 50s, I expect you to comment on my frequent, unanswered posts on old service/trackage issues :-) (E.g.: anyone challenge the apparent fact that there were no short line Nassau Loop services on Sea Beach and Brighton in the 30s and 40s?)
  - Subject: Re: Theater Service
  - Message Number: 762575
  - Posted by: Ed Sachs
  - Date: Fri Jan 30 14:22:09 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Theater Service posted by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto on January 25, 1998 at 04:20:53: Thanks for the compliment. I'm not quite old enough to remember pre-1950s, most of what I know about that comes from consulting old maps. Special thanks to Sandy Gardner who gave me copies of some of the maps in his collection (Sandy, are you reading this)? The Brighton Line is my favorite line -- comes from growing up within walking distance of Neck Rd. station. I also took the subway every day to Stuyvesant High School (which at that time was located at 15th St and First Ave.). Now I live in the Chicago area and commute via Metra.

Thread title: Mayor Hylan and the subways (762453)
Started on Mon Jan 26 12:35:08 1998, by Peggy de Bethune

Subject: Mayor Hylan and the subways
Message Number: 762453
Posted by: Peggy de Bethune
Date: Mon Jan 26 12:35:08 1998

Does anyone know anything about Mayor John Hylan who had to do with subway fares about 1920 or so. Does anyone know where I can get information about him? Thanks for any help. Peggy
- Subject: Mayor Hylan and the subways
- Message Number: 762454
- Posted by: Peggy de Bethune
- Date: Mon Jan 26 12:35:10 1998
  
  Does anyone know anything about Mayor John Hylan who had to do with subway fares about 1920 or so. Does anyone know where I can get information about him? Thanks for any help. Peggy
  - Subject: Re: Mayor Hylan and the subways
  - Message Number: 762455
  - Posted by: David Pirmann
  - Date: Mon Jan 26 12:35:12 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Mayor Hylan and the subways posted by Peggy de Bethune on January 23, 1998 at 14:14:41: First off, you only need to submit each post 1 time. The New York Public Library lists a few books with "Hylan, John" as the subject. 1.Autobiography of John Francis Hylan, mayor of New York. (1922) 2.Seven years of progress. Important public improvements and a (1925) 3.Subway nickels. A survey of New York city's transit problem (1925) So I'd start there... Anything you'll find on the web will be contradictory and possibly legendary discussions of how he almost killed his supervisor while he was a BRT/BMT motorman, got fired, then tried to exact his revenge by sponsoring the Independent Subway. -Dave
    - Subject: Re: Mayor Hylan and the subways
    - Message Number: 762457
    - Posted by: Peter Rosa
    - Date: Mon Jan 26 12:35:20 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: Mayor Hylan and the subways posted by David Pirmann on January 23, 1998 at 14:23:24: Contradictory and legendary information about Mayor Hylan isn't limited to the Web. Stan Fischler's new book, _The Subway_, recounts that "fired motorman" story as unquestioned truth, when in fact it may or may not be true.
      - Subject: Re: Mayor Hylan and the subways
      - Message Number: 762468
      - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
      - Date: Mon Jan 26 12:35:53 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Mayor Hylan and the subways posted by Peter Rosa on January 23, 1998 at 15:32:14: I think the things that relate to facts about Hylan can be trusted as long as one avoids attempts to get into his head. No doubt he worked for the transit company, but only he knew if this caused him to bear a grudge against them into his political career.
        
        Subject: Re: Mayor Hylan and the subways
        Message Number: 762471
        Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
        Date: Mon Jan 26 12:36:01 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Mayor Hylan and the subways posted by Gary Jacobi on January 23, 1998 at 17:43:01: So you're saying that the incident actually happened?? Wouldn't there be some record somewhere of it??
        
        Subject: Re: Mayor Hylan and the subways
        Message Number: 762481
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Mon Jan 26 12:36:34 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Mayor Hylan and the subways posted by Peggy de Bethune on January 23, 1998 at 14:15:03: Before he entered politics, John Hyland was a subway motorman. Unfortunately, he had one character flaw - he held a grudge. He disliked one of his supervisors so much - he attempted to run him over with his train. He was promptly fired for his attempted deed. When John Hyland became Mayor of NY, he still bore that grudge against the subway system that fired him. In order to drive them out of business, John Hyland embarked on building the city-owned IND subway system. He deliberately had the IND routes built to compete with the existing routes of the private companies. This explains why some IND routes like the Fulton Street Line (IND) ran under a BRT/BMT line.
        
        Subject: Re: Mayor Hylan and the subways
        Message Number: 762484
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Mon Jan 26 12:36:43 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Mayor Hylan and the subways posted by Peggy de Bethune on January 23, 1998 at 14:15:03: PS: See if you can get a copy of A&Es "Subway, Empire Beneath the Streets"

Thread title: mosaics on El stations (762456)
Started on Mon Jan 26 12:35:17 1998, by subway-buff

Subject: mosaics on El stations
Message Number: 762456
Posted by: subway-buff
Date: Mon Jan 26 12:35:17 1998

I found a beautiful mosiac today at Dyckman street, Uptown Platform- South end where the platform vanishes into the tunnel.(There are two, one is poor condition the other is in great shape.)

Thread title: Re: Lack of SEPTA Maps/Chestnut Street (762461)
Started on Mon Jan 26 12:35:31 1998, by Will

Subject: Re: Lack of SEPTA Maps/Chestnut Street
Message Number: 762461
Posted by: Will
Date: Mon Jan 26 12:35:31 1998

In Reply to: [7]Re: New NYC Subway Map (& Lack of SEPTA Maps) posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 23, 1998 at 15:35:45: Well said! Although I am an ardent supporter of mass transit, I also think that buses-only streets are a bad idea. After all, weren't buses adopted and streetcars put out to pasture because buses "mixed better" with traffic? I feel the jury may still be out on transit-only streets with rail on them, but the condition of Howard Street in Baltimore is certainly a strike against the practice. But then there's Portland.... Any opinions?
- Subject: Re: Lack of SEPTA Maps/Chestnut Street
- Message Number: 762477
- Posted by: Larry Littlefield
- Date: Mon Jan 26 12:36:26 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]Re: Lack of SEPTA Maps/Chestnut Street posted by Will on January 23, 1998 at 16:12:48: A no car street is only reasonable if there is sufficient transit traffic to fill the right of way. A five minute headway, with empty pavement most of the time, is a waste of land. Fulton Street in Downtown Brooklyn, a no car street with buses, is a successful low income shopping center, with high rents and dense pedestrian traffic. Amazingly, however, the TA runs just four bus routes on Fulton -- and four more on Livingston, a parallel street one block away. I guess thats the way the trolleys ran. Put all the buses on Fulton, leaving Livingston to the cars, and the no-car street would make more sense. A no car street might make sense on two-lane commercial streets. Fifth Avenue in Brooklyn has three active "main streets", one after another, each with upwards of 500,000 square feet of space. The merchants park at the curb, the trucks double park in the one moving lane in each direction, and the bus route has the worst on time record anywhere. Why not admit the cars can't use 5th Avenue anyway? The city could put the parking meters around the corners, reserve the parking lane for loading and bus stops, and have an express busway.

Thread title: Panhandlers (762462)
Started on Mon Jan 26 12:35:36 1998, by Subman23

Subject: Panhandlers
Message Number: 762462
Posted by: Subman23
Date: Mon Jan 26 12:35:36 1998

It is true that the MTA must do a better job of providing clean trains. How often do transit bureau officers patrol trains and eject outstretched people and ticket the panhandlers? NOT ENOUGH.... However, if the liberal populace continue to support the "Skels" they will continue to beg on trains and irritate the masses. Another problem is the civil liberty nuts who feel pity for these "unfortunate" people. Giving them some change warms their liberal hearts but encourages further begging. Bet I could make a good living out of being a representative of the UHO (United Homeless Organization - laugh, laugh, laugh). Are the riders so naive not to realize that these jokers are professional beggers? CAN ANYBODY SPARE SOME CHANGE?? "We all need somebody to lean on"!
- Subject: Re: Panhandlers
- Message Number: 762464
- Posted by: Gary Jacobi
- Date: Mon Jan 26 12:35:43 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]Panhandlers posted by Subman23 on January 23, 1998 at 16:14:39: I am not supporting these people, but I would like to share something a world-travelling friend of mine likes to remind me of when I complain about panhandlers.....Beggars are an accepted trade in every culture except ours...!
  - Subject: Re: Panhandlers
  - Message Number: 762473
  - Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
  - Date: Mon Jan 26 12:36:08 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Panhandlers posted by Subman23 on January 23, 1998 at 16:14:39: Not to start a war here, but I don't see the conservative "ignore them and they'll go away" solution being any better. I'll admit I don't like them either, but heck, I can't blame them. In case you've forgotten, the minimum wage is impossible to live on, and with a good act, I'm sure you could get better than $6 an hour - without taxes. Add to that a fairly decent working condition, and no need to commute to your job (!), and it's not such a bad alternative to flipping burgers. Ditto for welfare. If these people could actually get decent paying jobs with security, I'm sure you'd get at least a few of them out of there. But don't kid yourself, you can't make money flipping burgers, no matter what anyone says. Don't blame the liberals for making panhandleing profitable. Why not just fix the underlying problems in society. Kicking these people from location to location just moves the problem around - it solves nothing. For the mental cases out there, most "institutions", or better, the people in them, aren't going to do them any good either. Seriously, they have the attitude that all insanity is an "act" that the person does for attention. And the medications they give out make the person more out of wack than without the drugs. I know because I was in one, thank you very much.
    - Subject: Re: Panhandlers
    - Message Number: 762474
    - Posted by: Peter Rosa
    - Date: Mon Jan 26 12:36:14 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Panhandlers posted by Subman23 on January 23, 1998 at 16:14:39: A good way to cut down on panhandling is to make it illegal to *give* money to beggars. The skells themselves probably don't worry about occasional arrests, but the mostly respectable people who give money would be concerned.
      - Subject: Re: Panhandlers
      - Message Number: 762476
      - Posted by: Lefty
      - Date: Mon Jan 26 12:36:22 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Panhandlers posted by Subman23 on January 23, 1998 at 16:14:39: beggars, yeah they piss me off.. but what REALLY gets to me are the guys that live in the subway cars and occupy a full half of the car because their stench is intolerable..
        
        Subject: Re: Panhandlers
        Message Number: 762478
        Posted by: Larry Littlefield
        Date: Mon Jan 26 12:36:28 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Panhandlers posted by Subman23 on January 23, 1998 at 16:14:39: It may just be that since I purchased a car in 1991, my wife and I ride off peak less frequently, but the homeless problem on the subway seems much better than it was in the 1980s. I remember walking up a stairwell and coming across someone urinating downward -- the fly was down, but the pants were so shreaded he needn't have bothered. He graciously directed the stream the other way as I passed. I haven't come across something like that in the past five years.
        
        Subject: Re: Panhandlers
        Message Number: 762482
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Mon Jan 26 12:36:37 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Panhandlers posted by Philip Nasadowski on January 23, 1998 at 20:49:15: Sorry Phil but I need to disagree. 1st of all, the MTA is not an out-reach program and most employees are not equiped to handle the homeless problem. Second, leaving them on the system is far worse than putting them in shelters or hospitals. Too many of them become crime victims or end up under the wheels of a train. I had one period of 3 weeks nack in 1983 where I responded to 9 of them, Ever go through the 2nd Ave (Houston Street) station on the F line? Ever wonder why all that galvanized steel was erected? For a dozen years, a 'tribe' of homeless lived in the tunnel south of the station. The stench became so bad, people (like me) couldn't use the station without becoming ill. Sometimes being 'cruel' and not giving becomes a kindness. Besides, if you read the posters on the trains, you can give to outreach programs through the MTA.
        
        Subject: Re: Panhandlers
        Message Number: 762483
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Mon Jan 26 12:36:41 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Panhandlers posted by Gary Jacobi on January 23, 1998 at 17:35:35: That explains why pan-handlers don't bother me when I'm somewhere else. When in Rome - dah dah dah. But we are here and begging is not an acceptable part of our culture. Perhaps they should go where begging is a respected trade. If they learn the language it could be a great career move.
        
        Subject: Re: Panhandlers
        Message Number: 762528
        Posted by: Dan Lawrence
        Date: Fri Jan 30 14:19:57 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Panhandlers posted by Subman23 on January 23, 1998 at 16:14:39: Strangely, this problem seems to not inflict Baltimore. This could be because the MTA Police (Yes, we have a real professional police force.) patrol the stations and arrest pandhandlers, vagrants, homeless (no, we don't put them in jail, just remove 'em from the property and try to get them help) and in general keep the subway for the passengers. I've seen it done and the cops usually get a hand from the passengers.
        
        Subject: Re: Panhandlers
        Message Number: 762534
        Posted by: Reggie
        Date: Fri Jan 30 14:20:23 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Panhandlers posted by Subman23 on January 23, 1998 at 16:14:39: Man, panhandlers bug me for two reasons: 1) They are aggressive. People who've had a hard day at the office don't deserve to hear a phony hard-luck story as they're riding home. It annoys me that the deserving, sick and truly incapacitated aren't the people who are making the comedy routines in the subway cars. The woman with two kids, burned out of her apartment, isn't the one working the #4 train during PM rush hours. 2) A panhandler with a good routine can make more money than the people he's hitting up. Let's say a typical train is 8 cars long. All our panhandler has to do is get a quarter from only four people in each car and he's made $8 on this one subway train. If he does this on 10 trains, he's earned $80 today, tax free. I wonder how many of his supporters are going home each week with $400 after taxes. And again, if his routine is good, he'll probably do better. The best way to stop this is if riders just didn't contribute. This seems to be a difficult request, especially if the homeless person and the rider are members of the same minority. However, there are plenty of charities that will make sure donations go to food & clothing, not booze & drugs.
        
        Subject: Re: Panhandlers
        Message Number: 762539
        Posted by: Adam
        Date: Fri Jan 30 14:20:34 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Panhandlers posted by Larry Littlefield on January 23, 1998 at 22:27:17: Funny, I just saw a similar incident about 2 months ago at the N train 49th Street station stairway!
        
        Subject: Re: Panhandlers
        Message Number: 762541
        Posted by: Adam
        Date: Fri Jan 30 14:20:39 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Panhandlers posted by Subman23 on January 23, 1998 at 16:14:39: Most of the time panhandlers piss me off and scare me at times. But there was this one time where I was actually impressed by somebody who was not exactly panhandling, but in a different sort of way. There was this lady who came around with a bag full of sandwiches and said they were for anybody who was hungry, you didn't need to be homeless. And if you didn't want a sandwich she asked for a small donation to fund the program which I gladly gave. Does anybody know what this organization was because I'd really like to volunteer for it and help them out. This is the kind of panhandling we need on the subway. And another interesting panhandling story - There was this guy with a luggage cart with a black box mounted on it and it said "MAGIC" on the side. He stood in the middle of the car and proceeded to make a rabbit and a dove appear in a few tricks. I was duly impressed by his impromptu magic show and I was glad to fork over a buck for his magical talent. Now how many times do you get to see this on the subway?!?
        
        Subject: Re: Panhandlers
        Message Number: 762547
        Posted by: Peter Rosa
        Date: Fri Jan 30 14:20:53 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Panhandlers posted by Adam on January 24, 1998 at 13:20:56: You've hit upon an important distinction. Unauthorized musicians or peddlers may not be acting legally, but I don't mind their activities and think that sometimes they even add a bit of character to the subways. But people outright begging, they're a disgrace and don't belong in the subways at all ... or on the streets, for that matter.
        
        Subject: Re: Panhandlers
        Message Number: 762549
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Fri Jan 30 14:20:57 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Panhandlers posted by Adam on January 24, 1998 at 13:20:56: I also have seen and enjoyed the impromptu magic shows but I totally disagree with you about people who claim to feed the homeless. Let me tell you why. First - what time did you see this person. They don't ride the trains when the hungry and homeless are out. They ride when you and I are going to work. Why? Because we don't want the 'food' and we have the money. Second - These are not volunteers. I am told that they are paid for their time or pay for the ID and bag of food. Third - Would you eat anything out of that dirty bag? The food is not kept cold or maintained under any semblance of cleanliness. Before you give to them next time, ask the 'volunteer' what he or she does for a living.
        
        Subject: Re: Panhandlers
        Message Number: 762555
        Posted by: Bobw
        Date: Fri Jan 30 14:21:17 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Panhandlers posted by Steve on January 23, 1998 at 23:47:22: I agree that there are "panhandlers" and there are those who truly are in need. Rather than give panhandlers cash, I have, many times, offered to buy them something to eat, the bus token or train ticket they need to get to that mysterious "job interview" or back wherever they came from and are now hopelessly lost without cash to return, etc etc. I have never (NEVER!) been taken up on this offer! I will not give money since I don't want to support drug habits, alcoholism, etc, but, as I said, no one has accepted my offers. Usually, the beggars try to use the angle that "you look like a busy person, I don't want to take your valuable time for you to buy me whatever, so why not just give me the money and I'll get it myself". To me, that is the answer I really don't want, for then I know that the need for whatever can't possibly be that great. As for solicitation in the transit system, it's not too bad in the paid areas here in Phila. I recall, however, taking my father and 10-year old nephew to NYC a few years ago to visit the Transit Museum. We took the 2 from Penn Station to Brooklyn. A vendor came thru selling various battery-operated toys for "one dollar, five dollar, ten dollar". My nephew looked at me and laughed, asking whether this was allowed on the subway. I told him, "Don't be surprised by anything you see on the subway." He is nearly 18 now and he still reminds me of that experience.
        
        Subject: Re: Panhandlers
        Message Number: 762556
        Posted by: Peter Rosa
        Date: Fri Jan 30 14:21:19 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Panhandlers posted by Steve on January 24, 1998 at 19:13:37: As far as I know, these "charitable" solicitations on the subway are illegal, regardless of the underlying motives. And I suspect that the charities involved don't exactly exist ...

Thread title: Chestnut Street & other "no car" streets (762463)
Started on Mon Jan 26 12:35:40 1998, by John B. Bredin

Subject: Chestnut Street & other "no car" streets
Message Number: 762463
Posted by: John B. Bredin
Date: Mon Jan 26 12:35:40 1998

In Reply to: [8]Re: Lack of SEPTA Maps/Chestnut Street posted by Will on January 23, 1998 at 16:12:48: Here in Chicago, we had the State Street Mall fiasco. State Street, the shopping street with the two great department stores (Marshall Fields and Carson, Pirie, Scott), was converted to a no-auto, bus-only mall in the late '70s - early '80s, but the smaller stores kept leaving in droves, for Michigan Avenue or the suburban malls. The sidewalks were too wide, the pavement was very dark gray, etc., etc.. So, in the mid-90's, the city finally decided to 1) open the street to auto traffic again, 2) widen the street and narrow the sidewalks, and 3) install old-fashioned-looking streetlights, subway entrances, and planters. Since the renovation of State Street (and of several buildings on the Street, including the conversion of an empty department store into DePaul Center and the building of the Harold Washington Library), the pedestrian traffic has grown leaps and bounds, and stores are returning to State Street.
- Subject: Re: Chestnut Street & other "no car" streets
- Message Number: 762616
- Posted by: Gary Jacobi
- Date: Fri Jan 30 14:24:16 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]Re: Chestnut Street & other "no car" streets posted by Bobw on January 24, 1998 at 17:46:17: I believe the experience with Sacramento's "K St. mall" can shed some light. Sacramento tried to stem the flow of businesses from K Street in the 60's by closing it off to cars, and adding pavement and "Street Art" to form a pedestrian mall. It was funded by the remaining businesses, many of whom gave up and moved out eventually. However, when light rail transit was allowed to occupy the stretch between 12th St. and 7th St. in 1986, a renaissance of sorts did occur, and continues to this day. Not a complete turnaround by any means, but a definite upturn. The Transit angle seemed to be the key: people won't drive and park on the street to shop downtown, pedestrian mall or not!
  - Subject: Re: Chestnut Street & other "no car" streets
  - Message Number: 762638
  - Posted by: Joe M
  - Date: Fri Jan 30 14:25:14 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: Chestnut Street & other "no car" streets posted by Gary Jacobi on January 26, 1998 at 13:03:35: Memphis had a situation like this with a long pedestrian mall. It is now home to the historic streetcar line and things are turning around rather nicely, but not fast enough for some of the business people that expected instant gratification.

Thread title: Canal St. Station (J,M,Z,N,R,6) (762465)
Started on Mon Jan 26 12:35:45 1998, by Michael B.

Subject: Canal St. Station (J,M,Z,N,R,6)
Message Number: 762465
Posted by: Michael B.
Date: Mon Jan 26 12:35:45 1998

When you transfer from the J,M,Z,6 to the N,R the connecting tunnel is actually a disused station. The tracks appear to be strewn with rubble. What is the story with this tunnel, station, tracks, etc? -Michael
- Subject: Re: Canal St. Station (J,M,Z,N,R,6)
- Message Number: 762469
- Posted by: Mike B
- Date: Mon Jan 26 12:35:55 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Canal St. Station (J,M,Z,N,R,6) posted by Michael B. on January 23, 1998 at 17:40:38: This is the station that used to serve all Broadway trains coming off the Manhattan Bridge. The last trains to use it in regular service were the N and Q. When the North-Side of the bridge was closed a few years ago, B and D trains were routed to Broadway and used the station. When (If) the Manhattan Bridge ever opens some day, the tracks and station will be used again. Keep your fingers crossed that this may someday occur..

Thread title: Subway Sounds Audios (762480)
Started on Mon Jan 26 12:36:32 1998, by R. O.

Subject: Subway Sounds Audios
Message Number: 762480
Posted by: R. O.
Date: Mon Jan 26 12:36:32 1998

Didn't get a chance to check back till now, is there any source of subway audio, not only the traction motors running hum but compressor pumps etc. would make good wav files for PC.
- Subject: Re: Subway Sounds Audios
- Message Number: 762530
- Posted by: Marc
- Date: Fri Jan 30 14:20:05 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]Subway Sounds Audios posted by R. O. on January 23, 1998 at 22:59:03: The Jubilee Line Extension web page features audio sounds along the lines of .."This is canning town, change for Docklands light railway, etc) The URL is listed in the Automated Train Thread
  - Subject: Re: Subway Sounds Audios
  - Message Number: 762538
  - Posted by: Adam
  - Date: Fri Jan 30 14:20:32 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Subway Sounds Audios posted by R. O. on January 23, 1998 at 22:59:03: I have a .wav file of the sounds of the doors closing in the subway but I do not know how to post it on here. If somebody tells me how, I can do that. Also, I recorded a number of sounds in the subway on a mini-tape. Does anybody know how to convert this into .wav files on my computer? Thanks for your help with this!
    - Subject: Re: Subway Sounds Audios
    - Message Number: 762550
    - Posted by: R.O
    - Date: Fri Jan 30 14:21:00 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Subway Sounds Audios posted by R. O. on January 23, 1998 at 22:59:03: What I'm looking for were either the R1 or R4 Units of the IND, or the articulated BMT D type cars, they had this distinct almost clockwork sound of what I think was the air compressor building up pressure. You'd usually hear it as the train sat in the station, awaiting a green light or schedual time. Then the woosh of the doors closing, followed by the building hum of the traction motors. Sounds of the 50's, 60's, and 70's. I live near Kingston and will check out the trolley museum here I know the got some cars which ones for sure I don't know. Will post again later.
      - Subject: Re: Subway Sounds Audios
      - Message Number: 762612
      - Posted by: Steve B
      - Date: Fri Jan 30 14:24:09 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Subway Sounds Audios posted by R.O on January 24, 1998 at 20:19:44: Ah, memory lane. I also remember the building hum of the motors as one of those old trains gathered speed - it was music to my ears. The BMT standards also had the same hum. There were some subtle differences in braking sounds between the standards and R1/9s, as well as door sounds. On the standards, as a train came to a stop, you'd hear a "tchhh" just before the doors opened. The doors on the standards opened and closed quietly and evenly. Every once in a while, one of the doors would be improperly adjusted, and would whip open and slam shut. On R1/9s, as a train slowed, you'd hear a "tchh-ssss", usually more than once. Just before the doors opened, you'd hear a clunk as the conductor would trip the first of two triggers (which unlocked the doors), then a "ksss" as the second trigger was tripped. The doors would then open. Apparently, the pneumatic pistons were dampened in that the doors would open rapidly initially, momentarily stop about 4/5 of the way, and then slowly open the rest of the way. The doors on the R-10s sounded and functioned the same way. When the conductor was ready to close the doors, he'd push down the trigger cap, releasing both triggers. There was a short "ts", the doors would close and lock with an audible clunk and "tsh", and with a characteristic jerk, off we went! I didn't care much for the standards, probably because they didn't have bulkhead signs, but I loved the R1-9s, especially if the first car didn't have headlights. Unfortunately, I can't speak of the Triplex units, as I never had a chance to ride them.

Thread title: Crime (762487)
Started on Fri Jan 30 14:18:21 1998, by SubMan

Subject: Crime
Message Number: 762487
Posted by: SubMan
Date: Fri Jan 30 14:18:21 1998

What station in the New York City Subway do you think is the most crime-ridden and unsafe to be in? Which do you think is the most pleasant and nice to be in? Also, what do you think is the most dangerous corridor to walk in in the subway either when transferring trains or leaving a station? Of all the stations I've been to, I actually feel the safest at 34th Street on the N and R because everytime I'm there, I always see at least 2 cops in the station so I know if I need help it's right there. Also, there's this "Urban Musical Instrument" there. I don't know if anybody has seen or played with it but it's a unique contraption that defies explaination but is a must see for all subway fans. Using this instrument, you can produce sounds of nature in the station. It's a lot of fun and gives you something to do while waiting for the train! Of the stations I've been to, I feel the least safe at 21st St. - Van Alst on the G train late at night. This station is totally deserted and prostitutes often use it as their "place of business". As for a dangerous corridor, I'm not sure but I was wondering what everybody else thinks!
- Subject: Re: Crime
- Message Number: 762488
- Posted by: Peter Rosa
- Date: Fri Jan 30 14:18:24 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Crime posted by SubMan on January 10, 1998 at 00:17:31: It's probably difficult to reach any conclusions about the relative safety of any stations without having the appropriate statistics. For a variety of reasons, including lighting, physical layout, usage etc., a station might appear particularly dangerous (or safe) when that might not actually be the case. As a case in point, consider the F station at 14th Street in Manhattan. It has always seemed vaguely menacing to me, even though I've never heard of any incidents there and have no idea what the crime rates might be. Several factors contribute to this impression - the station is dimly lit, feels confined (walls separate the uptown and downtown platforms and mezzanines), and doesn't seem particularly busy. In contrast, there is the N and R station at 34th Street,as you noted.
  - Subject: Re: Crime
  - Message Number: 762489
  - Posted by: Timothy Speer
  - Date: Fri Jan 30 14:18:28 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Crime posted by Peter Rosa on January 10, 1998 at 10:20:36: It's amazing what adding fluorescent lighting to a station can do for its image. I used to get off at Lafayette avenue on the C train when I was at Brooklyn Tech, and the eerie lighting (or lack thereof!) of the incandescent bulbs made it seem very menacing, though I never actually witnessed any crime there. Once they added the fluorescents, as nice as the bright lights were, their harshness made the stations look dirtier and less classy. I miss the dimly lit IND stations for some reasons, I guess. All things being equal, I always felt the most unsafe at Smith-9th Street on the G & F. By the way -- As a child, I always hated 14th street on the F, but not because it was unsafe... I HATED the smell of the stale popcorn at the concessionary there. The doors of the F train would open, and the smell would almost knock me off my seat. (I think the stand was removed in the late 1970's)
    - Subject: Re: Crime
    - Message Number: 762491
    - Posted by: Larry Littlefield
    - Date: Fri Jan 30 14:18:33 1998
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: Crime posted by Timothy Speer on January 10, 1998 at 11:38:46: It is easier to know which stations feel unsafe than which are unsafe. I feel the most unsafe when a transfer between trains requires negotiating a stair of passageway, rather than a hop across the platform. Traveling from Yonkers to Brooklyn while visiting relatives in the 1980s, my wife and I originally took the 1 to the A to the F. But these were trips during the lightly traveled weekend period, and that route required an elevator ride at 168th and Broadway. When crack hit Washington Heights (it hit there first), the elevator got very scary and we stopped going that way (I believe the elevator is now manned). We could have transfered from the 1/2/3 to the F at 14th Street, but that required a long walk down an empty passageway, and we never felt comfortable. Eventually, we started taking the 1 to the 2 to Grand Army Plaza, then walking 15 to 20 minutes, to avoid these changes. Then we started renting cars on weekends. Then we bought a used car for weekend use. Eventually we bought an new car, and we now use the subway primarily for work trips. Other scary places: the change from the F to the N/R at 4th Avenue, down several dark stairways. The entrance to Clark Street, which requires an elevator ride. The East New York stop on the Long Island Railroad, in Brooklyn's murder capital, where the suburbanites back away when the doors open, and relax when they close, and few get off or on (we used to visit Long Island by train as well). At, since they tore down the abandoned LIRR terminal at Atlantic and Flatbush, the area around that terminal is a scary wasteland. A major developer supposedly has the rights to build atop the station and is negotiating with major retail tenants. I hope the deal goes through and activity returns to comfort travelers.
      - Subject: Re: Crime
      - Message Number: 762496
      - Posted by: Andrew Huie
      - Date: Fri Jan 30 14:18:46 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Crime posted by Larry Littlefield on January 10, 1998 at 14:46:00: Clark street unsafe? That's in Bklyn Heights! Personally, I've never found the elevators to be scary, since I've been acquainted with them all my life. Dirty and smelly, yes, but not scary.
        
        Subject: Re: Crime
        Message Number: 762498
        Posted by: Peter Rosa
        Date: Fri Jan 30 14:18:53 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Crime posted by Larry Littlefield on January 10, 1998 at 14:46:00: Transfer passageways are not created equal, when it comes to the perception of safety (as I mentioned in an earlier note, reality is not necessarily the same as perceptions). The passageway from Times Square to 42nd Street on the A/C/E hardly feels unsafe, given its heavy usage. Much the same could be said about the passageway to the Shuttle at Grand Central. On the other hand, as an earlier posting noted, the Court Square-21st passageway in Queens seems menacing, which may very well be due to lower usage. So it really isn't possible to generalize about safety perceptions. By the way, neither East New York nor Flatbush Avenue on the LIRR seem particularly dangerous. The area surrounding the ENY station is mainly commercial rather than residential, and the station itself seems to get a lot of usage by workers at the nearby bus depot and subway yard. There is a busy commercial area around Flatbush Avenue, especially since the completion of the Atlantic Commons shopping mall just behind the station.
        
        Subject: Re: Crime
        Message Number: 762502
        Posted by: Neil
        Date: Fri Jan 30 14:19:03 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Crime posted by SubMan on January 10, 1998 at 00:17:31: >Of the stations I've been to, I feel the least safe at 21st St. - Van >Alst on the G train late at night. This station is totally deserted and >prostitutes often use it as their "place of business". Actually, I've used that station a lot when I lived in Hunter's Point, and never saw anyone in there at all (though I've seen TONS of hookers out on the street closer to the Queensboro Bridge)--definitly creepy, but no problems, including hookers. I've always wondered why they keep the station open, even at rush hour, I've never seen more than six people use it... With all the talk of subways not being as safe as they were supposed to be, I'm curious, What kind of crimes are on the rise: "Passive" pick-pocketing type stuff, muggings, assault? And are they happening more on the trains themselves, or in the stations? -Neil
        
        Subject: Re: Crime
        Message Number: 762512
        Posted by: jp
        Date: Fri Jan 30 14:19:23 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Crime posted by SubMan on January 10, 1998 at 00:17:31: My "home" station when I was growing up and until I moved elsewhere in NYC was the D-line 174th-175th Street Station on the Concourse "D" line in The Bronx. Someone once jumped on top of me and tried to blow my head off with a gun about 25 years ago, but I'm still here. Nonetheless, the station had an upper level that led to the Grand Concourse and an interior stairway that led down to Morris Avenue, which passed underneath the Concourse through a grandly constructed and rather large underpass. The stairway, which consisted of a number of flights of stairs with white tiled walls and relentless incandescent lights was the creepiest passageway I've ever seen in the entire NYC subway system -- it's the stuff of nightmares. I know it was still open in the 1970's, I'm sure it must be sealed off today.

Thread title: Who had the great foresight for Express Lines? (762490)
Started on Fri Jan 30 14:18:31 1998, by Reggie

Subject: Who had the great foresight for Express Lines?
Message Number: 762490
Posted by: Reggie
Date: Fri Jan 30 14:18:31 1998

I've been on subway systems around North America and seen maps and guides to other subways around the world. And the one factor that makes NYC the best is the large number of Express Lines we have. Every north-south line in Manhattan (even Nassau Street), four lines in Brooklyn and one in Queens are 4-track express lines. Then add all the 3-track peak direction express lines in the the outer boroughs and we have quite a "rapid" rapid transit system. Only Chicago has an express line that I know of (Purple/Red line from Howard to Downtown). And San Francisco's underground streetcars serve as a local Market Street subway for BART between downtown and The Castro District. There are no express trains in London or Paris, which either pre-date us or developed around the same time. And none of North America's newer subways have provided for any more than two tracks for any of their lines, not even Washington, which has more unduplicated track miles than we do, extending far into the suburbs. So my question is: How did New York have the vision to build so many express lines, especially since private companies did all the construction in the first half of our history? Was there someone like a Robert Moses who could predict how important our subway system would become, requiring four track operations, even in Brooklyn and Queens?
- Subject: Re: Who had the great foresight for Express Lines?
- Message Number: 762492
- Posted by: Mark S Feinman
- Date: Fri Jan 30 14:18:36 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Who had the great foresight for Express Lines? posted by Reggie on January 10, 1998 at 13:57:33: The Chief Engineer of the Interborough Rapid Trnsit Corporation, William Barclay Parsons, had the foresight to create the world's first 4 track subway with dedicated express and local service. Seeing how well it became utilized on opening day and beyond, all of the trunk lines also adapted this scheme, be it IRT or BRT new lines or expansion. The IND took it one step further in the late '20s and designed some of the best express runs in the world, from 125th to 59th in Manhattan and from Queens Plaza to 71/Continental Ave in Queens. Between Queens Plaza & Roosevelt Ave, and also between 7th Ave (Brooklyn) and Church Ave on the IND South Brooklyn Line, the express actually diverges from the local, taking a more direct route to the next express stop. Parsons visited Budapest, London and Paris, which all had subway lines built before New York's. The "cut and cover" method was brought back from his Budapest trip. He also had the foresight to build the IRT closest to street level, where possible, unlike some of London's deep-bored tube lines requiring elevators. Could you imagine if Grand Central Station on the Lexington Ave line required elevators for departing and arriving passengers? The center track on the Els dates back to the Metropolitan Elevated Railway Company in Manhattan and BRT ownership of Brooklyn ELs in the early 20th century. Once the Els were electrified and more rapid speeds could be achieved, a center track was laid on the Els (remember that most ELs were wide enough for 3 tracks because th structure had to allow horsecar traffic underneath them) and peak direction express service began. Other cities don't have it; perhaps their engineers felt it wasn't necessary. More recent systems (Washington DC, San Francisco's BART) have most stations, except for those in a city center, relatively far apart from one another so express runs aren't required. Look how close some of the original IRT stations were. I know London has 2 express runs, only one of which I can think of right now, which is the Piccadilly Line a few miles outside of Heathrow (I wish I had a map handy to specify the exact location). --Mark
  - Subject: Re: Who had the great foresight for Express Lines?
  - Message Number: 762497
  - Posted by: Andrew Huie
  - Date: Fri Jan 30 14:18:49 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]Who had the great foresight for Express Lines? posted by Reggie on January 10, 1998 at 13:57:33: What I find curious, is how do smaller systems like Moscow and Tokyo carry more passengers, if they don't have separate express and local tracks? In NYC, it seems even with the separate tracks it's not enough.
    - Subject: Re: Who had the great foresight for Express Lines?
    - Message Number: 762501
    - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
    - Date: Fri Jan 30 14:19:00 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: Who had the great foresight for Express Lines? posted by Andrew Huie on January 10, 1998 at 19:03:52: I'll venture to guess that in those cities, it is much more expensive for people to drive that it is here. More people in those cities may not have the alternatives to driving that we take for granted here in the US. Also, in Tokyo, it is common practice to be pushed onto packed trains at Rush Hour by people hired to push you in (I don't know their official title). They really take the term "crush loading" to its maximum. --Mark
      - Subject: Re: Who had the great foresight for Express Lines?
      - Message Number: 762504
      - Posted by: Dan Lawrence
      - Date: Fri Jan 30 14:19:07 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Who had the great foresight for Express Lines? posted by Mark S Feinman on January 11, 1998 at 15:07:46: I believe that the people whose job is to push passengers into packed Tokyo subway trains are called (Japanese) "Pushers-in". Talk about job descriptions.
        
        Subject: Re: Who had the great foresight for Express Lines?
        Message Number: 762506
        Posted by: Brian
        Date: Fri Jan 30 14:19:11 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Who had the great foresight for Express Lines? posted by Dan Lawrence on January 12, 1998 at 00:21:58: The man to whom credit is given too on the idea of the four track system is August Belmont fonder of the IRT in the late 1890's. My source is the book Under the Sidewalks of New York 2nd edition, by Brian J. Cudahy.
        
        Subject: Re: Who had the great foresight for Express Lines?
        Message Number: 762509
        Posted by: Charles Fiori
        Date: Fri Jan 30 14:19:18 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Who had the great foresight for Express Lines? posted by Mark S Feinman on January 10, 1998 at 14:54:05: Besides the escalators at the south end of the Grand Central #7 line platform, I can remember riding an elevator from the Flushing line platform up to the mezzanine. This was probably back in the early to mid 60s. I believe the elevator is still there, but is no longer for commuter use.
        
        Subject: Re: Who had the great foresight for Express Lines?
        Message Number: 762514
        Posted by: Peter Gray
        Date: Fri Jan 30 14:19:26 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Who had the great foresight for Express Lines? posted by Reggie on January 10, 1998 at 13:57:33: Reggie: Credit where credit is due. 'New York' didn't have any vision at all. Private entrepreneurs like the founders of the IRT & BMT were the ones with the vision. They built express lines because they wanted to maximize profit, and that's what they thought would attract riders - good service. A completely different mentality than that of city bureaucrats. Central planners such as Robert Moses were responsible for most of the hideous infrastructure disasters in NY.
        
        Subject: Re: Who had the great foresight for Express Lines?
        Message Number: 762519
        Posted by: Sergiy Pakhomov
        Date: Fri Jan 30 14:19:41 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Who had the great foresight for Express Lines? posted by Mark S Feinman on January 10, 1998 at 14:54:05: There are two possibilities: 1. tracks bettween Hatton Cross and Heathrow (now Terminals 1,2,3). Once the Piccadilly line has ended at Heathrow 1,2,3 Terminals as it is usual - dead stub. After that the line was lengthened with a loop through 4th. Terminal Heathrow. So the second track between Hatton Cross and Heathrow is not necessary right now. 2. 4 tracks between South Kensington (I think) and Acton Town. When there was not the Picadilly line, the branch between Acton Town and Hounslow (now by Picadilly) was operated by the District.
        
        Subject: Re: Who had the great foresight for Express Lines?
        Message Number: 762525
        Posted by: Tim Hall
        Date: Fri Jan 30 14:19:52 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Who had the great foresight for Express Lines? posted by Sergiy Pakhomov on January 14, 1998 at 10:40:17: To answer various questions: The Hounslow branch was originally part of the District line, and was joint District/Picadilly line for a time. Most of the 4-track section east of Acton town was originally built by the L&SWR, and only later became part of the underground network. Part of the LSWR viaduct survives just west of Hammersmith station, where the two lines once separated. I believe that the former westbound track between Hatton Cross and Heathrow Terminals 1,2 & 3 is still used for some early morning services that don't serve terminal 4.
        
        Subject: Re: Who had the great foresight for Express Lines?
        Message Number: 762526
        Posted by: Reggie
        Date: Fri Jan 30 14:19:54 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Who had the great foresight for Express Lines? posted by Reggie on January 10, 1998 at 13:57:33: Thanks for all the responses. I was aware that London has some places where there are four tracks but that is usually in the suburbs where two lines join up and one acts as an express for awhile, or where a spur line leaves the main line so for a few miles the spur acts as a local service. Also, I failed to note that Philadelphia has an excellent express/local four track service up and down Broad Street. And its blue line uses underground streetcars as a local service downtown. But again, I am still amazed that so few other systems failed to follow New York's lead with numerous express lines, both downtown and in the suburbs.

Thread title: Addendum (Re: Who had the great foresight for Express Lines?) (762493)
Started on Fri Jan 30 14:18:38 1998, by Mark S Feinman

Subject: Addendum (Re: Who had the great foresight for Express Lines?)
Message Number: 762493
Posted by: Mark S Feinman
Date: Fri Jan 30 14:18:38 1998

In Reply to: [8]Re: Who had the great foresight for Express Lines? posted by Mark S Feinman on January 10, 1998 at 14:54:05: Regarding London, Tim Hall posted a [9]response regarding 4 track lines in London. --Mark
- Subject: Re: Addendum (Re: Who had the great foresight for Express Lines?)
- Message Number: 762494
- Posted by: Tim Hall
- Date: Fri Jan 30 14:18:42 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Addendum (Re: Who had the great foresight for Express Lines?) posted by Mark S Feinman on January 10, 1998 at 16:11:05: Note that none of those 4-track sections are in the central area, they're all out in the suburbs. An east-west express line is sorely needed in the centre though. One was proposed (Crossrail) a few years back, but was "indefinitely postponed".
  - Subject: Re: Addendum (Re: Who had the great foresight for Express Lines?)
  - Message Number: 762500
  - Posted by: Mellow One
  - Date: Fri Jan 30 14:18:58 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Addendum (Re: Who had the great foresight for Express Lines?) posted by Tim Hall on January 10, 1998 at 18:26:22: I thought I might jump in this subject. It is interesting that the original NY rapid transit, the els, were reconstructed to 3 track / center express/ lines. Much of the US and NY rail and early rapid transit systmes were financed to some degree with British capital. However, their influence extended mainly to the esthetic, the Victorian Station Structures in Manhattan, and in some cases, like Chicago, two track service was initiated with left hand running. However, our NYC demographics, namely the original suburban development, necessitated expanded rush hour service. The 9th Ave El was completely rebuilt to 3 track configuration well before electrification. The 6th Ave El was never expanded because of the local traffic density which is what mainly applies to the European metropolises. London, on the other hand instituted the subway as we know it, but because of its deep tunneling and in some cases, the local trafic desity, stayed with the 2 track configuration. Our first NYC subway construction engineers had the opportunity to learn from the London and the local El experiences. Manhattan is the least likely place to have deep tunneling because of the granite bedrock of most of the island and necessitated the cut and cover method of subway construction.
    - Subject: Re: Addendum (Re: Who had the great foresight for Express Lines?)
    - Message Number: 762507
    - Posted by: Brian
    - Date: Fri Jan 30 14:19:14 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: Addendum (Re: Who had the great foresight for Express Lines?) posted by Mellow One on January 11, 1998 at 14:56:04: Yes that is right it was parsons who sold the idea to Belmont to use the four track system thanks

Thread title: The Most Dangerous Station (762495)
Started on Fri Jan 30 14:18:44 1998, by Steve

Subject: The Most Dangerous Station
Message Number: 762495
Posted by: Steve
Date: Fri Jan 30 14:18:44 1998

In Reply to: [8]Crime posted by SubMan on January 10, 1998 at 00:17:31: Statistics not withstanding, safety and the feeling there-of is a matter of perception. While most people might feel uneasy about being in a deserted station, late at night, there are also people who might feel threatened by huge crowds during the PM rush at Columbus Circle. The NYPD has statistics on what stations are highest in crime, but the disclosure of which one would add little to the discussion. Just keep in mind that while most people that use it or pass it each day, give it little thought to the fact that the station with the greatest number of crime victims in this decade is Merrilon Avenue on the Long Island Railroad.
- Subject: Re: The Most Dangerous Station
- Message Number: 762499
- Posted by: Peter Rosa
- Date: Fri Jan 30 14:18:56 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]The Most Dangerous Station posted by Steve on January 10, 1998 at 18:32:28: Do you have these station-by-station crime statistics, or know where they're available? I agree, raw numbers can be misleading (e.g. Times Square probably is high on the list, but that's no surprise given its usage). Even so, people have the right to know.

Thread title: Pushers (Was: Re: Who had the great foresight for Express Lines?) (762508)
Started on Fri Jan 30 14:19:16 1998, by John B. Bredin

Subject: Pushers (Was: Re: Who had the great foresight for Express Lines?)
Message Number: 762508
Posted by: John B. Bredin
Date: Fri Jan 30 14:19:16 1998

In Reply to: [8]Re: Who had the great foresight for Express Lines? posted by Dan Lawrence on January 12, 1998 at 00:21:58: Anyone remember the movie "Sergeant York"? 1940 or 1941, it was the story of the World War I hero of the same name. Anyway, in the training-camp portion of the movie, York meets a fellow trainee who everyone calls "Pusher", and York asks where he got such a nickname. He replies that his civilian job was with the subway in New York City, pushing the rush hour crowds into the cars.

Thread title: Grand Central Elevators (762510)
Started on Fri Jan 30 14:19:19 1998, by Ed Sachs

Subject: Grand Central Elevators
Message Number: 762510
Posted by: Ed Sachs
Date: Fri Jan 30 14:19:19 1998

In Reply to: [8]Re: Who had the great foresight for Express Lines? posted by Charles Fiori on January 12, 1998 at 11:13:27: > Besides the escalators at the south end of the Grand Central #7 line > platform, I can remember riding an elevator from the Flushing line platform > up to the mezzanine. This was probably back in the early to mid 60s. I > believe the elevator is still there, but is no longer for commuter use. There was until the 60s a set of elevators at the west end of the Flushing line Grand Central platform (the wide area). These elevators were removed and replaced by escalators in the 1960s.
- Subject: Re: Grand Central Elevators
- Message Number: 762511
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Fri Jan 30 14:19:21 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Grand Central Elevators posted by Ed Sachs on January 12, 1998 at 12:53:49: See : [9]The Steinway Tunnels for more. This was a early 60s ERA publication about the Steinway line. The diagram below is from this article: [INLINE] Diagram of Grand Central Station, Steinway Tunnel Line -Dave

Thread title: Re: Are the facts about Moscow metro curious? (762516)
Started on Fri Jan 30 14:19:35 1998, by Seriey Pakhomov

Subject: Re: Are the facts about Moscow metro curious?
Message Number: 762516
Posted by: Seriey Pakhomov
Date: Fri Jan 30 14:19:35 1998

In Reply to: [8]Re: Who had the great foresight for Express Lines? posted by Andrew Huie on January 10, 1998 at 19:03:52: I think it is not curious that the Moscow metro carries more passengers than the NYC subway not having express tracks. It is not an exception that the next train is entering the station in 30-40 seconds after the first train has departed. And it is 1.20-1.30 mins. headway. Take into account the train length, how much people is inside and so on.
- Subject: Re: Are the facts about Moscow metro curious?
- Message Number: 762524
- Posted by: Tim Hall
- Date: Fri Jan 30 14:19:50 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Re: Are the facts about Moscow metro curious? posted by Seriey Pakhomov on January 14, 1998 at 09:58:05: Southern half of the District/Circle line between Gloucester Road and Tower Hill in London operates that sort of headway as well.

Thread title: Re: Pushers-in (762517)
Started on Fri Jan 30 14:19:38 1998, by Sergiy Pakhomov

Subject: Re: Pushers-in
Message Number: 762517
Posted by: Sergiy Pakhomov
Date: Fri Jan 30 14:19:38 1998

In Reply to: [8]Re: Who had the great foresight for Express Lines? posted by Mark S Feinman on January 11, 1998 at 15:07:46: "Pushers-in" are common on the A line of Paris RER.

Thread title: Re: Express Lines - London. (762518)
Started on Fri Jan 30 14:19:40 1998, by Sergiy Pakhomov

Subject: Re: Express Lines - London.
Message Number: 762518
Posted by: Sergiy Pakhomov
Date: Fri Jan 30 14:19:40 1998

In Reply to: [8]Who had the great foresight for Express Lines? posted by Reggie on January 10, 1998 at 13:57:33: Do not think that express lines are the feature of NYC only. London has its express line though one only (maybe two, it depends). I would not like to speak about the running the Metropolitan and Jubilee lines between Baker Street (St. Jones Wood) and Neaden that is typical express service (Once when there were not the Jubilee line the track from Neasde to Stanmore belongs to the Metropolitan - it was the Stanmore branch). But the Metropolitan line operates express service now. When I have been to London there was the following pattern service: peak-hours trains to Amersham stoped at all stations either north or south of Harrow-on-the-Hill, or all stops; Chesham trains did not stop between Finchley Road and Moor Park. off-peak service to Amersham, stopping between Finchley Road and Moor Park only at Harrow-on-the-Hill; services to Uxbridge and to Watford were able to stop between Finchley Road and Harrow-on-the-Hill on all stations or run as expresses.
- Subject: Re: Express Lines - London.
- Message Number: 762520
- Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
- Date: Fri Jan 30 14:19:43 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Re: Express Lines - London. posted by Sergiy Pakhomov on January 14, 1998 at 10:23:19: There is also some sort of experss service involving the Picadilly and District Lines to the west.
  - Subject: Re: Express Lines - London.
  - Message Number: 762521
  - Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
  - Date: Fri Jan 30 14:19:45 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: Express Lines - London. posted by Gerry O'Regan on January 14, 1998 at 11:23:07: I have a London Tube Diagram in front of me. 4-track express service is on the Picadilly (Exp) and District (Local) West of Hammersmith to Acton Town. There is also Express/local service on the Metropolitan (exp) and Jubilee (local) between Baker Str and Wembley Park. The section leading into Baker Street is a split and the Baker Street Station is not actually a cross platform connection. BTW, The northern part of the Jubilee used to be (2 decades ago) a branch of the BakerLoo (short for Baker St and Waterloo) Line.
    - Subject: Re: Express Lines - London.
    - Message Number: 762522
    - Posted by: geoffrey skelsey
    - Date: Fri Jan 30 14:19:47 1998
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: Express Lines - London. posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 14, 1998 at 11:55:39: very good
      - Subject: Re: Express Lines - London.
      - Message Number: 762523
      - Posted by: geoffrey skelsey
      - Date: Fri Jan 30 14:19:49 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Express Lines - London. posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 14, 1998 at 11:55:39: Sorry about the earlier glitch: our network has problems. Very good to see some London exchanges here. Of course the situation about express lines isn't quite as simple as prevous postings suggested! There are still two instances of classic NYCTA four-track express working on London Underground (LUL): between Baker Street and Moor Park in the north-west; and between Baron's Court and Acton Town (originally Northfields) in the west. Four tracks still exist beyond Acton Town but two are not regularly used.But that isn't quite the whole story. In three major instances LUL tracks run parallel to and alongside National Railways (Railtrack) lines, and LUL provide local stops and National Railways the fast service, with suitable interchanges and of course common ticketing. These are between North Acton and West Ruislip (Central Line); Bromley and Upminster (District Line); and Queen's Park and Harrow (originally Watford Junction) (Bakerloo Line). So far as I know there are no examples like this in NY.There were also examples of skip-stop working on two-track lines, but these were not really satisfactory. They were on the northern section of the Northern Line (1927-36) with overtaking loops at the station now called Brent Cross; on the northern section of the Piccadilly Line, until 1947; and on the central part of the District Line until the 1950s.In 1936 LUL officials visited New York to look at express working and came back with lots of plans and good intentions. During the 1939-45 War deep level sections of tube were built parallel with existing stations on the Northern and Central Lines at eight locations, the intention being to join them up to form deep express tubes. They were used as air-raid shelters, and in one case as a US Army Transit Camp!, but the job was never finished.Anyone wanting to know more about LUL is welcome to e-mail me. Perhaps this isn't quite the right place to clog up with such stuff, but I enjoy all that you guys write.Regards,Geoff

Thread title: Soliciting On Subway Trains (762527)
Started on Fri Jan 30 14:19:56 1998, by Timothy

Subject: Soliciting On Subway Trains
Message Number: 762527
Posted by: Timothy
Date: Fri Jan 30 14:19:56 1998

I remember up until several years ago, while riding the subway in New York, it was common to see a guy, usually Asian, board a train, carrying a shopping bag full of toys, and other gadgets, and selling them to passengers. Although I haven't seen this over the last couple of years, I've often wondered who these people were, and who/what they were selling the items for. Were they homeless? Because as I recall, they did not seem very clean.
- Subject: Re: Soliciting On Subway Trains
- Message Number: 762531
- Posted by: Gary
- Date: Fri Jan 30 14:20:13 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]Soliciting On Subway Trains posted by Timothy on January 24, 1998 at 00:48:20: They are still on the train.
  - Subject: Re: Soliciting On Subway Trains
  - Message Number: 762533
  - Posted by: Peter Rosa
  - Date: Fri Jan 30 14:20:20 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Soliciting On Subway Trains posted by Timothy on January 24, 1998 at 00:48:20: On occasion I'll see people selling trinkets on the train (batteries seem to be one of the more common items, don't ask me why), but more often they sell stuff on the platforms and in passageways. Passageways leading to the 7 train seem to be the most heavily used for these purposes.
    - Subject: Re: Soliciting On Subway Trains
    - Message Number: 762536
    - Posted by: Steve
    - Date: Fri Jan 30 14:20:28 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Soliciting On Subway Trains posted by Timothy on January 24, 1998 at 00:48:20: There's one who rides the D train in the afternoon. Usually the 4:00 PM out of Bedford Park. There are others too. Oddly enough, they all carry the same things in bags rigged the same way. Either they are exchanging job tips over dinner or perhaps they are all working for the same person. Not long ago, NYPD found out that the 'hearing impaired' people that solicited on the trains, were virtual slaves to one woman in Queens. Perhaps these people are in a similar circumstance. Hmmmmmmmmmmm
      - Subject: Re: Soliciting On Subway Trains
      - Message Number: 762537
      - Posted by: Adam
      - Date: Fri Jan 30 14:20:31 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Soliciting On Subway Trains posted by Steve on January 24, 1998 at 12:28:16: I thought that they had gotten rid of the Mexican "slaves" who were selling the trinkets on the trains. There were about 20-30 of these hearing impaired people who were smuggled in from Mexico and forced to sell $100 worth of trinkets each day and then they had to give the money to their boss who kept it and left the Mexicans living in filthy and squalid conditions. They proliferated on the #7 train because the house where these people were living in was in Corona, right near the #7 train. The whole operation was busted up last summer so I don't know why they're back. They were also discovered in other cities like Chicago and around North Carolina.
        
        Subject: Re: Soliciting On Subway Trains
        Message Number: 762543
        Posted by: Timothy
        Date: Fri Jan 30 14:20:44 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Soliciting On Subway Trains posted by Adam on January 24, 1998 at 13:04:13: I've noticed that many of those people are also Oriental (Chinese?), and I assumed that they were coming from the Chinatown area, because I've seen many stores in Chinatown selling the same trinkets that those people sell on the trains.
        
        Subject: Re: Soliciting On Subway Trains
        Message Number: 762595
        Posted by: John B. Bredin
        Date: Fri Jan 30 14:23:20 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Soliciting On Subway Trains posted by Adam on January 24, 1998 at 13:04:13: Yes, we had the deaf "vendors" on the subway/L in Chicago. They walked through a car, placing the trinkets (usually those tiny teddy bears you put on the end of a pencil) on the empty seats next to passengers (they did this strictly at off-peak hours), and then walked through again to collect the money from the passengers who were keeping the trinkets or pick them up from those who were not. Oddly enough, when the police raided the apartment building where they were staying, they said that it wasn't quite the "slavery" arrangement it was in NYC, though the operations were run by the same set of people. Haven't seen them since, though. Didn't hear about them in North Carolina. Where did they ply their trade there, there being no rapid transit system there?
        
        Subject: Re: Soliciting On Subway Trains
        Message Number: 762629
        Posted by: Bobbie
        Date: Fri Jan 30 14:24:55 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Soliciting On Subway Trains posted by Timothy on January 24, 1998 at 00:48:20: I still see the Asian guys with the trinkets, and now I've noticed a resurgence of hearing imparied people on the R train!

Thread title: Re: Mayor Hylan and the subways - A&E Video (762529)
Started on Fri Jan 30 14:20:01 1998, by Dan Lawrence

Subject: Re: Mayor Hylan and the subways - A&E Video
Message Number: 762529
Posted by: Dan Lawrence
Date: Fri Jan 30 14:20:01 1998

In Reply to: [7]Re: Mayor Hylan and the subways posted by Steve on January 23, 1998 at 23:27:27: I believe the video mentioned can be ordered from A&E. Also, the BSM Gift Shop has the video for sale.

Thread title: attaching files (762535)
Started on Fri Jan 30 14:20:26 1998, by subway-buff

Subject: attaching files
Message Number: 762535
Posted by: subway-buff
Date: Fri Jan 30 14:20:26 1998

Can anyone give us a short lesson on attaching files we wrote off line sych as Mark gave us on links? I am sure others wiould be interested.
- Subject: Re: attaching files
- Message Number: 762551
- Posted by: Lefty
- Date: Fri Jan 30 14:21:02 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]attaching files posted by subway-buff on January 24, 1998 at 12:05:20: highlight the text from whatever program you wanna copy from, cut it by pressing ctrl-c, and then paste it into the text field on this screen by pressing ctrl-p. if you want to attach files that are online type: [9]whatever you wanna write
  - Subject: Re: attaching files
  - Message Number: 762557
  - Posted by: David Pirmann
  - Date: Fri Jan 30 14:21:21 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]attaching files posted by subway-buff on January 24, 1998 at 12:05:20: The best you can do is cut and paste HTML or plain text into the field. If the HTML is invalid it will screw up the system so I will delete it if i find it. Better off just pasting plain text if you're not familiar with HTML. You can't attach an image or other non-textual material. You can't upload that sort of thing to the server (even if the software supported it I wouldn't allow it). You can make a link to anything that resides on another web site, though... Dave

Thread title: BMT Chambers st. station (762544)
Started on Fri Jan 30 14:20:46 1998, by Shunya Togashi

Subject: BMT Chambers st. station
Message Number: 762544
Posted by: Shunya Togashi
Date: Fri Jan 30 14:20:46 1998

I have read lots of info about this station like about the nassau st. loop service, and how it used to be a terminal etc.... but i have another question. After going right out of the station on the Queens bound side, I see a little "tunnel" that cuts right into where the cross over is. It appears to be capable of holding double tracks. what was this for? was this to connect to the els or something? Mta goin your way -Shunya
- Subject: Re: BMT Chambers st. station
- Message Number: 762578
- Posted by: Timothy S. Speer
- Date: Fri Jan 30 14:22:16 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]BMT Chambers st. station posted by Shunya Togashi on January 24, 1998 at 15:37:43: You have discovered the remains of the Nassau Loop. The tracks that used to go through this tunnel led to the south track on the Manhatan Bridge, and Broadway trains used to run on the North Tracks.

Thread title: New Q train cars. (762545)
Started on Fri Jan 30 14:20:48 1998, by Nick

Subject: New Q train cars.
Message Number: 762545
Posted by: Nick
Date: Fri Jan 30 14:20:48 1998

Does anyone know why they switched the Q trains from the D train type cars to the funny looking trains that look like this /=======\
- Subject: Re: New Q train cars.
- Message Number: 762546
- Posted by: Steve
- Date: Fri Jan 30 14:20:51 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]New Q train cars. posted by Nick on January 24, 1998 at 18:17:17: We've covered this before but for the record- The B line is a 24 hour line while the Q is not. The R-68As were on the Q line and were not accumulating enough mileage, roughly 900,000 miles per month. The R-40s on the B line were doing about double that mileage. Unfortunately, the R-40s, being older, need substantially more maintneance that the R-68As do. By putting the 40s on the Q line, it insured that those cars would lay up every night and get the maintenance they need. Say what you will, the fact is that both fleets' performance has substantially improved since the swap.
  - Subject: Re: New Q train cars.
  - Message Number: 762553
  - Posted by: Larry Littlefield
  - Date: Fri Jan 30 14:21:07 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]New Q train cars. posted by Nick on January 24, 1998 at 18:17:17: The Brighton Line once received the best cars because it traveled through many of the most prestigious neighborhoods in Brooklyn: Prospect-- Lefferts Gardens, Prospect Park South, Ditmas Park, Midwood, and Sheepshead Bay. But now, many of the affluent white neighborhoods to the north are middle income black neighborhoods. I took the Brighton recently, with the idea of walking across the park. Most of the riders were black. I think much of the remaining white population takes the express buses that travel on Ocean Avenue. The B line travels through the former working class Italian and Jewish neighborhoods of Borough Park and Bensonhurst. While these areas are still not affluent, Borough Park is increasingly occupied by Hasidic Jews who, it is generally thought, vote in a block based on the advice of their rabbis. Therefore, if the rabbis say they need better train service (which they do), someone might feel a need to do something. Not something which makes things better overall, of course, but something. All these neighborhoods rely for their continued viability on a tenuous link to Manhattan over the rusting Manhattan Bridge. Based on a couple of trips, the Brighton seems brutally packed at rush hour, but with both the open Manhattan bridge tracks and the Montigue Tunnel at capacity (25 trains) they can't add any trains. One would think they make some demands on that score, rather than playing musical subways. The leading political spokesman for the Boro Park Hasidm is the head of the City Council transportation committee, and he hopes to run for congress, but real issues like this seem not to interest him. His main focus is denying permits to the West Indians (from the neighborhoods near the Brighton Line) who earn a decent wage offering private mass transit in vans. In any event, I'm told political pressure got some of the R68s returned to the Brighton. I just hope that, for all their failings, we get to keep the R46s on the F. Fortunately, in addition to my neighborhood the F serves yuppie Park Slope where brownstones are now going for almost $1 million.
    - Subject: Re: New Q train cars.
    - Message Number: 762588
    - Posted by: Eric B
    - Date: Fri Jan 30 14:22:59 1998
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: New Q train cars. posted by Larry Littlefield on January 24, 1998 at 21:19:44: If the Hasidic West End riders have so much political power, then why during full bridge closings does the West End get the shaft, being reduced to a shuttle to Pacific or 36th St (even if the bridge is replaced by a Rutgers connection!)
      - Subject: Re: New Q train cars.
      - Message Number: 762590
      - Posted by: Larry Littlefield
      - Date: Fri Jan 30 14:23:06 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: New Q train cars. posted by Eric B on January 25, 1998 at 21:10:37: There is power and then there is power. In New York, inertia is the greatest power. The Manhattan Bridge problem is the result of doing nothing. One day I got really irritated about it, and wasted my time by calling the State Senator from Borough Park, who in a classic gerrymander also represents me. His staff was telling me that yet transportation is a priority, and gave the R68 switch as an example of him in action. What good will that do, I asked him, if the bridge eventutally goes out of action. MTA's problem, he said.
        
        Subject: Re: New Q train cars.
        Message Number: 762636
        Posted by: David L.
        Date: Fri Jan 30 14:25:09 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]New Q train cars. posted by Nick on January 24, 1998 at 18:17:17: It seems to me that half of the Q trains are R32's and the other half is R-40's.

Thread title: Lost in Space (762548)
Started on Fri Jan 30 14:20:55 1998, by Steve

Subject: Lost in Space
Message Number: 762548
Posted by: Steve
Date: Fri Jan 30 14:20:55 1998

In Reply to: [8]Another Ride Home Redux (or, Steve???) posted by Sammy on January 24, 1998 at 08:08:55: Sammy, you just don't get it, do you? Just because you played with your brother's electric trains as a child does not qualify you to run a railroad. What you see as a simple solution to a problem might cause dozens of other problems you could not en-vision. Look, a lot of people dislike the MTA - they write and tell them so. Just Do It. If you have a personal complaint about me, let them know that too. Or just E-Mail me and I'll give you the phone number for my boss or his boss or his. Just stop wasting everyone elses time and Dave's space with your petty vendetta against the MTA. Happy Flying >->

Thread title: Re: attaching files OOPS (762552)
Started on Fri Jan 30 14:21:05 1998, by Lefty

Subject: Re: attaching files OOPS
Message Number: 762552
Posted by: Lefty
Date: Fri Jan 30 14:21:05 1998

In Reply to: [8]attaching files posted by subway-buff on January 24, 1998 at 12:05:20: highlight the text from whatever program you wanna copy from, cut it by pressing ctrl-c, and then paste it into the text field on this screen by pressing ctrl-p. if you want to attach files that are online type: a href="http://***" whatever you wanna write /a and put the a href until the " after the location*** in these thingies and also the /a...

Thread title: Re: Panhandlers (U.H.O.) (762558)
Started on Fri Jan 30 14:21:22 1998, by Subman23

Subject: Re: Panhandlers (U.H.O.)
Message Number: 762558
Posted by: Subman23
Date: Fri Jan 30 14:21:22 1998

In Reply to: [8]Re: Panhandlers posted by Adam on January 24, 1998 at 13:20:56: Adam, These people with the sandwiches are "representatives" of the United Homeless Organization. They are not social workers; but professional beggers. They receive training, literature, identification by the president of the organization (a Mr. Carter - I believe). They do not have proper tax identification for not for profit charities and are not permitted to beg on NYCTA property. Many news organizations, including Channel 2 and NY1 News have exposed this fraudulent organization. These "representatives" claim territory. I have observed feuds between so called members for encroaching on each other's territory. I have had a bad experience with this organization. A "representative" lambasted me (while I was wearing a suit). He pointed me out to the other riders and told them "See this may - he too may be homeless someday" and put me down for a few minutes in an attempt to get riders to give to his cause. Please don't support these con men.
- Subject: Re: Panhandlers (U.H.O.)
- Message Number: 762559
- Posted by: Steve
- Date: Fri Jan 30 14:21:24 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Re: Panhandlers (U.H.O.) posted by Subman23 on January 24, 1998 at 23:09:28: AMEN
  - Subject: Re: Panhandlers (U.H.O.)
  - Message Number: 762582
  - Posted by: Bobw
  - Date: Fri Jan 30 14:22:37 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Panhandlers (U.H.O.) posted by Steve on January 25, 1998 at 00:26:36: I know panhandlers and the homeless are generally two separate issues, but none of us really wants to deal with either of them, especially on the transit system. Phila got kind of tough a few years ago and sealed off the concourse area (underground passage system), locking it between 1 AM and 5 AM. This coincided with the shutdown of subway service and was easy to do since no one needed to access the subway at these times. Two positive things resulted: 1) The concourse was cleaner and smelled better. The homeless could no longer live there since they were cleared out every night when "lockup" time came. The crazy part of this was the outcry from "support" groups claiming that the homeless would freeze, etc etc. There is just a little nuttiness, to me, when decent folk are affronted by people who use public spaces for sleeping, going to the bathroom, etc etc. 2) The "lockup" gave cleaning crews time to do maintenance work, clean long-neglected areas, move the homeless' cardboard box hovels (often breeding grounds for roaches, rats, etc), and in general spruce the concourse up a bit. The result - a better "public" space for people who do not treat the space nearly as bad as the homeless did.

Thread title: Day One on the IRT Tour (762569)
Started on Fri Jan 30 14:21:57 1998, by Todd Glickman

Subject: Day One on the IRT Tour
Message Number: 762569
Posted by: Todd Glickman
Date: Fri Jan 30 14:21:57 1998

Yesterday (Saturday) I took the "Day One on the IRT" tour offered by the NY Transit Museum. It was led by Joe Cunningham, subway historian and "curator" of abandoned stations; he did a super job of leading this four-hour tour. We visited the 91st St. Station (Broadway IRT), 18th St. Station (Lex IRT), and City Hall Station. Stops were also made at both the Grand Central and Times Square sides of the 42nd Street Shuttle for discussion of the original IRT routing; plus a visit to the Brooklyn Bridge Station tower for a demonstration. A NYCT supervisor accompanied us, and was in charge of having the trains drop us off and pick us up at the stations. I recommend this trip to all! -Todd

Thread title: Re: Panhandlers (to Bobw) (762571)
Started on Fri Jan 30 14:22:00 1998, by Peter Rosa

Subject: Re: Panhandlers (to Bobw)
Message Number: 762571
Posted by: Peter Rosa
Date: Fri Jan 30 14:22:00 1998

In Reply to: [8]Re: Panhandlers (to Bobw) posted by Timothy on January 24, 1998 at 23:53:39: Selling trinkets on the subway may not be illegal, but I wouldn't put it in the same category as outright begging.
- Subject: Re: Panhandlers (to Bobw)
- Message Number: 762580
- Posted by: Bobw
- Date: Fri Jan 30 14:22:29 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Re: Panhandlers (to Bobw) posted by Peter Rosa on January 25, 1998 at 11:22:35: I agree. I don't mind folks selling things in the subway, but I'm always a little wary. A few years ago, a friend and I were coming into the city from Flushing on the 7. A man was selling gum, candy, etc from a ratty cardboard box. Obviously, no one was interested (the man looked a little seedy too). One of the other passengers on the car told us when the man had passed thru to the next car that it was a front - there were others working the train and, if the "salesman" noticed someone buying that might have taken out a wallet or wad of bills that looked ripe for the taking, he would advise his accomplises who would mug the hapless man or woman with the cash. We sort of half believed the fellow who told us this and that was that. We transferred at Roosevelt Ave for the IND and sure enough saw the "salesman" with a couple of tough-looking characters ready to switch to the outbound 7 as we descended from the el platform to the subway level. It was enough to make me think twice about buying anything or flashing any cash on a train.

Thread title: NYCTA tours&Lights on R-32 (762572)
Started on Fri Jan 30 14:22:02 1998, by George

Subject: NYCTA tours&Lights on R-32
Message Number: 762572
Posted by: George
Date: Fri Jan 30 14:22:02 1998

My first question is about the R-32. There are two red lights above the first and last cars. What are they used for? Why do PATH trains have so many indicator lights next to the doors?(I think there is a red, green, blue, orange.) My second question is if the NYCTA planning to give a tour of Grand Central Terminal? The areas that are off limits to passengers?
- Subject: Re: NYCTA tours&Lights on R-32
- Message Number: 762579
- Posted by: Adam
- Date: Fri Jan 30 14:22:20 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]NYCTA tours&Lights on R-32 posted by George on January 25, 1998 at 11:37:13: You would probably want to contact the Transit Museum regarding upcoming tours. I do seem to remember a tour of Grand Central sometime in the past that was given by the Museum. Personally, I would like to see a tour of the Worth Street station (the previously scheduled tour was not successful because of debris on the platform), the lower level platform in the 42nd Street Station, and more parts of the 2nd Ave. Subway.
  - Subject: Re: NYCTA tours&Lights on R-32
  - Message Number: 762583
  - Posted by: Steve
  - Date: Fri Jan 30 14:22:40 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]NYCTA tours&Lights on R-32 posted by George on January 25, 1998 at 11:37:13: The Red lights you are probably referring to are called Bulkhead Indication Lights. They serve no purpose on the open ends of the train but when they are at the Conductor's position, he/she uses those lights to indicate that the doors in the 'other zone' are closed and locked.
    - Subject: Re: NYCTA tours&Lights on R-32
    - Message Number: 762592
    - Posted by: Alex
    - Date: Fri Jan 30 14:23:13 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]NYCTA tours&Lights on R-32 posted by George on January 25, 1998 at 11:37:13: The two red lights over the door are the marker lights which were used to identify trainsby tower operators. See the thread named 'Marker lights' for more info. As for your hopes of a tour, Grand Central Terminal belongs to MTA Metro-North Railroad not MTA NYCT, so a tour would likely come from them. If you mean the non-public areas of the '42nd St.- Grand Cental' station, most of it seems to be undergoing some sort of renovation work, especially in the area of the Grand Central Master Tower - midway between the 4,5 & 6 platform and the shuttle platform.
      - Subject: Re: NYCTA tours&Lights on R-32
      - Message Number: 762594
      - Posted by: Todd Glickman
      - Date: Fri Jan 30 14:23:18 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: NYCTA tours&Lights on R-32 posted by Alex on January 26, 1998 at 08:48:02: On the Day One of the IRT tour I took on Saturday, we had a chance to visit the area under construction midway between the Shuttle and 4/5/6 area. That included a look at the spot where August Belmont had his private entrance into the subway -- along the curved section of track that connects Shuttle Track 1 to the downtown Lex local. We were not able to get all the way to the tower due to the construction. Our tour guide explained that the area is being outfitted with offices and storage areas. It was very dusty in the area due to the construction! And that's Transit and Weather Together *smile*. -Todd
        
        Subject: Re: NYCTA tours&Lights on R-32
        Message Number: 762645
        Posted by: Bootsy
        Date: Fri Jan 30 14:25:35 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]NYCTA tours&Lights on R-32 posted by George on January 25, 1998 at 11:37:13: Are you sure you're speaking of the R-32? The marker lights from these cars were removed when they were refurbished in the late 1980s. The redbirds still have marker lights, and they are all set to red. Marker lights used to indicate the train's terminus by a series of color combinations of red, green, amber, and white.
        
        Subject: Re: NYCTA tours&Lights on R-32
        Message Number: 762651
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Fri Jan 30 14:25:50 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]NYCTA tours&Lights on R-32 posted by George on January 25, 1998 at 11:37:13: Regarding a tour of Grand Central, the ERA offers one yearly and it's usually held around this time. You may want to contact them for info - their e-mail address is ERA@Juno.com, IIRC. --Mark

Thread title: Re: Marker lights - Brighton Local (762574)
Started on Fri Jan 30 14:22:06 1998, by Ed Sachs

Subject: Re: Marker lights - Brighton Local
Message Number: 762574
Posted by: Ed Sachs
Date: Fri Jan 30 14:22:06 1998

In Reply to: [8]Re: Marker lights posted by Mike Rothenberg on January 25, 1998 at 02:42:05: The 'via tunnel' Brighton Locals were red/red Northbound (to 57 St/Astoria/Forest Hills) and white/white Southbound (to Coney Island). I'm not sure if they used different colors for the 'via bridge' trains. I recall from the mid-late 50s that some of the 'Bankers Specials' also used red/red (Culver line, Nassau Loop Southbound) and white/white (from 95 St/4th Ave, Nassau Loop Northbound). The only place that these two routes shared trackage with the Brighton Local was between DeKalb Ave. and the Nassau Loop/Broadway Line junction near South Ferry, and since they traversed the Nassau Loop one way, there wasn't a conflict of colors. Also, prior to the rebuilding of DeKalb Ave. and moving the junction trackage south of the station, these trains were able to go to/from the 'via tunnel' tracks via the bypass (express) tracks (the ones which don't stop at DeKalb.

Thread title: Re: NJT Maps( was re: New NYC Subway Map (NYCT or MTA??) (762576)
Started on Fri Jan 30 14:22:11 1998, by subway-buff

Subject: Re: NJT Maps( was re: New NYC Subway Map (NYCT or MTA??)
Message Number: 762576
Posted by: subway-buff
Date: Fri Jan 30 14:22:11 1998

In Reply to: [8]Re: New NYC Subway Map (NYCT or MTA??) posted by Walter on January 24, 1998 at 21:04:32: Go to the annual Try Transit Festival in Hoboken- They'll have them there. Or if you'd write or call NJT ask them to send you one. These booklets are wrong though. They still show North Rahway Station which closed fall of 1993 and Bus 1A, 1B,2,3 and 62 at MetroPark and now there are 1,2,3,4,5, and 62! ps- the festival is in May

Thread title: Re: Panhandlers (DC style) (762581)
Started on Fri Jan 30 14:22:33 1998, by Bobw

Subject: Re: Panhandlers (DC style)
Message Number: 762581
Posted by: Bobw
Date: Fri Jan 30 14:22:33 1998

In Reply to: [8]Re: Panhandlers posted by Dan Lawrence on January 24, 1998 at 01:26:34: I don't know how true this is (maybe someone out there knows), but on a visit to DC about a year ago I noticed, as usual, the lack of beggars around Metro stations. However, there were loads of them on the trains. I was told by someone I thought would know that there is a homeless support group which gives them farecards since they will be arrested for begging around stations but "left alone" or, at worst, removed from a train but not from the system, if they ply their trades on the trains. Of course, it's tougher to do on the Metro since it isn't easy to pass between cars while the train is moving. Anybody know how true this ridiculous policy is?

Thread title: Closed 33rd St passageway. (762589)
Started on Fri Jan 30 14:23:02 1998, by Eric B

Subject: Closed 33rd St passageway.
Message Number: 762589
Posted by: Eric B
Date: Fri Jan 30 14:23:02 1998

Go to transit newsgroup for rough diagram of passageway and surrounding areas. It often comes up on this board and the newsgroup.
- Subject: Re: Closed 33rd St passageway.
- Message Number: 762606
- Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
- Date: Fri Jan 30 14:23:50 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]Closed 33rd St passageway. posted by Eric B on January 25, 1998 at 21:34:37: Huh? Not all of us know what you mean by "Go to transit newsgroup". And do you mean 33rd St at 6th Avenue? Or somewhere else? And what is it that often comes up on this board and the newsgroup? Please explain.
  - Subject: Re: Closed 33rd St passageway.
  - Message Number: 762613
  - Posted by: Peter Rosa
  - Date: Fri Jan 30 14:24:11 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Closed 33rd St passageway. posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 26, 1998 at 11:22:17: The reference is to the nyc.transit newsgroup. Some of the Subtalk regulars are regulars on nyc.transit, and vice versa. The passageway in question ran from the Penn Station IRT station (1/2/3/9 to the Herald Square B/D/F/Q/N/R/Path station.
    - Subject: Re: Closed 33rd St passageway.
    - Message Number: 762618
    - Posted by: John Stewart
    - Date: Fri Jan 30 14:24:21 1998
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: Closed 33rd St passageway. posted by Peter Rosa on January 26, 1998 at 12:18:08: What is the address of the nyc.transit newsgroup website. I tried http://www.nyc.transit and this didn't seem to work. Thank you.
      - Subject: Re: Closed 33rd St passageway.
      - Message Number: 762619
      - Posted by: David Pirmann
      - Date: Fri Jan 30 14:24:24 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Closed 33rd St passageway. posted by John Stewart on January 26, 1998 at 13:40:09: nyc.transit is a newsgroup, not a website. Your browser might be able to call it up as news://nyc.transit but this would require you having an NNTP server defined in your browser preferences. If your ISP doesn't offer newsgroups, you can use DejaNews, which is a web interface to newsgroups, at http://www.dejanews.com
        
        Subject: Re: Closed 33rd St passageway.
        Message Number: 762642
        Posted by: Eric B
        Date: Fri Jan 30 14:25:27 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Closed 33rd St passageway. posted by David Pirmann on January 26, 1998 at 13:47:50: Forget it everyone! It didn't come out right anyway. (The margins of the screen you post on, and the screen that is actually displayed must be different, and this ripped the simple slash and underline diagram to shreds. Also sorry I wasn't clear enough. This passageway often comes up in discussions, and being sealed by concrete wall, many people do not know or remember exactly where it is, but I and others would like to see it reopened, and I wanted to show exactly where it is, and how it could be brought to within the fare-controlled area. I mailed a drawing of it to subway@subway org, but then I saw on the "Posting files" thread, below that the site host will not post drawings.
        
        Subject: Re: Closed 33rd St passageway.
        Message Number: 762643
        Posted by: fAN
        Date: Fri Jan 30 14:25:31 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Closed 33rd St passageway. posted by Eric B on January 26, 1998 at 22:30:51: the passage ran along side of gimbels dept store. it even a exit from the store to the subway. the path trains station was just a few feet south of the step to the passage
        
        Subject: Re: Closed 33rd St passageway.
        Message Number: 762654
        Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
        Date: Fri Jan 30 14:25:56 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Closed 33rd St passageway. posted by fAN on January 26, 1998 at 22:35:35: I used to use it to get to PennRR trains to go to Philadelphia from the Bway-Brighton Line (pre-11/26/67). My thinking is that it was popular before the Big Change because half of Brooklyn had no other convenient connection to Penn Station other than backtracking at Times Sq. After the Big Change (1967) fewer people needed a connection from the 34-Bway-6th Ave. station to Penn Station since most trains could easily connect to the 8th Ave at W 4th St. When I used to use it it was not that popular; it was long and narrow, but easier than going outside. Probably it got emptier and emptier and scarier and scarier, and then it was closed off. While it might be a convenience, it would probably be avoided by many. I know I stopped using it as soon as I could go from DeKalb Ave. to W 4 St. to get the 8th Avenue train. Making it a paid area connection is also not as useful since the 8th Avenue now connects to the 7th Avenue at 42 St, so a 6th Avenue connection is not that important. The Broadway connects to the 7th Avenue at 42 St also, so, again, having the extra connection is not so important. And I'm the first guy to say that some important long connections are great -- like 14th St. at 6/7 Avenue, 42 at 7/8 Avenue, 51/53-Lexington. I would even want them to connect Atlantic/Pacific (2,3,4,5,Q,D,N,R,B,M) and the Fulton (G) and Lafayette (A/C) stations. But 34th St. (1,2,3,D,F,Q,B,N,R) is low down on my personal list of imperatives.

Thread title: Oh, you can't get to heaven on the Frankford El (762591)
Started on Fri Jan 30 14:23:09 1998, by Carl M. Rabbin

Subject: Oh, you can't get to heaven on the Frankford El
Message Number: 762591
Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
Date: Fri Jan 30 14:23:09 1998

In Reply to: [7]Re: Frankford Transportation Center (Was Lack of SEPTA Maps (Also Answer to DB's Question) posted by Bobw on January 24, 1998 at 17:29:16: Bridge and Pratt Streets are the two streets at either end of the station. One is the corner of Bridge St. and Frankford Ave., the other is Pratt St. and Frankford Ave. The station just south of it is called Margaret-Orthodox (Arrot), the three streets it crosses. I always thought they should just pick one name and let it go at that. There was a song with the Subject line stated 3 times, then: "'Cause the Frankford El goes to 69th St... You can't get to heaven on the Frankford El." There was a radio announcer in Philadelphia for decades whose name was: Frank Ford. It was a stage name based on the neighborhood. Also, I work with someone also named Frank Ford; it's his real name and has no connection with Philadelphia. Last Philadelphia subway joke: What the next number in this sequence: 2,5,8,11,13,15? Of course, it's... 30, the next stop on the Market Street Subway. I know, in NYC they say: 8,14,23,28,34....42 (stops on the BMT).
- Subject: Re: Oh, you can't get to heaven on the Frankford El
- Message Number: 762604
- Posted by: DB
- Date: Fri Jan 30 14:23:45 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]Oh, you can't get to heaven on the Frankford El posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 25, 1998 at 23:31:16: I take it the same philosophy holds true at the York-Dauphin station? Gee, why didn't they realy 'simplify' and call the stations 2-Market 5-Market 8-market 11-market........
  - Subject: Re: Oh, you can't get to heaven on the Frankford El
  - Message Number: 762608
  - Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
  - Date: Fri Jan 30 14:23:57 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: Oh, you can't get to heaven on the Frankford El posted by DB on January 26, 1998 at 11:13:02: Yes, every station with entrances at two streets seems to have a double name: Race-Vine, Walnut-Locust, Lombard-South, Ellsworth-Federal, Tasker-Morris, 30th-31st Streets (believe it or not), Susquehanna-Dauphin, 15-16th, 12-13th, 9-10th. The last 3 are now PATCO stations but originally were part of the Broad Street-Ridge Avenue-Camden system run by SEPTA/PTC.
    - Subject: Re: Oh, you can't get to heaven on the Frankford El
    - Message Number: 762664
    - Posted by: DB
    - Date: Fri Jan 30 14:26:28 1998
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: Oh, you can't get to heaven on the Frankford El posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 26, 1998 at 11:38:44: And people still get lost (not me of course............)
      - Subject: Re: Oh, you can't get to heaven on the Frankford El
      - Message Number: 762675
      - Posted by: Bobw
      - Date: Fri Jan 30 14:26:59 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Oh, you can't get to heaven on the Frankford El posted by DB on January 27, 1998 at 19:02:44: And don't forget Erie-Torresdale - only one street but it changes names at Kensington Ave. Also, why is North Philadelphia the stop at Lehigh Ave (because it connects to the North Phila PRR (now Amtrak) station)? It would be more appropriatre, but not historically accurate, to call it Lehigh Ave. I believe the double names related also to the streets which carried connecting surface transit. These streets were generally one-way pairs and therefore had transit lines on each (e.g. Tasker-Morris has the Route 29 westbound on Tasker, eastbound on Morris). And just when you get into that numbered street pattern on the Market St el, someone throws Millbourne into the mix (actually, a small town within Upper Darby). Also, you could win many bar bets with 30th-31st!
        
        Subject: Re: Oh, you can't get to heaven on the Frankford El
        Message Number: 762678
        Posted by: Andrew Byler
        Date: Fri Jan 30 14:27:05 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Oh, you can't get to heaven on the Frankford El posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 26, 1998 at 11:38:44: Carl, You forgot one double entrance station - North Philadelphia, which is located north of Lehigh Ave. to more conveniently serve the North Philadelphia Amtrak and Septa North Broad train stations. But it has always been called North Philadelphia. Andy Byler
        
        Subject: Re: Oh, you can't get to heaven on the Frankford El
        Message Number: 762686
        Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
        Date: Sat Jan 31 23:09:30 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Oh, you can't get to heaven on the Frankford El posted by Andrew Byler on January 28, 1998 at 10:25:50: True; I didn't even want to get to the stations named after "grande lignes" railroad stations, such as: Logan (at Lindley Avenue and the Reading RR), North Philadelphia (at Lehigh Ave. at the Reading RR and Glenwood Avenue at the Pennsylvania RR), Fern Rock (at 10th St. & Nedro Avenue at the railroad storage yard and the Reading RR), all on the Broad St Line. To tell the truth, I don't remember if Millbourne on the MFSE is a town or a street name. BTW, the Logan Reading station is completely closed, for those not in Brotherlylovesville but wanted to know.
        
        Subject: Re: Oh, you can't get to heaven on the Frankford El
        Message Number: 762789
        Posted by: STEVE
        Date: Thu Feb 5 17:11:45 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Oh, you can't get to heaven on the Frankford El posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 28, 1998 at 13:35:24: MILLBOURNE SHOULD BE BLOWN TO BITS. BUT THAT'S JUST ME. THE MILLBOURNE EL STOP( ACTUALLY ON THE SURFACE) HAS A FEW INTERESTING MOMENTOS OF HOW IT USED TO BE. WHEN GOING TOWARDS 69th STREET, LOOK OUT THE RIGHT WINDOWS TOWARDS COBBS CREEK PARK AND YOU WILL SEE OLD TRACKS THAT ARE HALF BURIED AND JUST VISIBLE EVEN ON A SPEEDING TRAIN. AND I DON'T KNOW IF YOU ARE AWARE OF THIS OR NOT BUT IF YOU LOOK DOWN AT THE TRACKS ON THE PORTION OF THE EL BETWEEN 52nd AND 63rd YOU WILL SEE PORTIONS OF OLD TRACKS. AND BETWEEN 52nd AND 46th STREETS IT HASN'T EVEN BEEN REMOVED! AND A LITTLE TIDBIT THAT I AM SURPRISED MORE SUBWAY BUFFS( PARTICULARLY IN PHILLY) IS THAT AS YOU APPROACH THE TUNNEL ENTRANCE WHEN BRIEFLY TURNING AWAY FROM MARKET STREET YOU WILL SEE WORK VEHICLES AND WHAT LOOKS LIKE AN OLD SECTION OF ELEVATED STRUCTURE. CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT THE EL WAS AN EL ALL THE WAY TO 30th STREET?!
        
        Subject: Re: Oh, you can't get to heaven on the Frankford El
        Message Number: 762794
        Posted by: Michael S. Buglak
        Date: Thu Feb 5 17:12:00 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Oh, you can't get to heaven on the Frankford El posted by STEVE on January 30, 1998 at 17:15:36: (To Steve: Turn off your CAPS Lock!) The half-buried trackage between Millbourne & 69th Street is the remains of the PRR's Cardington Branch which once ran into the 69th Street Terminal area. Red Arrow used to receive its new trolleys over this branch. I'm not sure when it was abandoned, but I would guess the 1960s. As for the "Old" trackage on the El structure between 46th & 52nd, I believe that the disconnected rail sections are placed to act as safety devices in the evenr that a train derails, so as to prevent it from dropping ro the ground from the El structure itself. (I'm not technically inclined, so please correct me if I'm wrong here!) The remain of the old El structure is from the original right-of-way that ran as an elevated all the way to about 23rd Street (Yes, it did cross the Schyulkill River as an elevated), not just to 30th. This section was removed about 1955 after the El was relocated to subway trackage from 45th Street to the existing subway at 23rd. Michael S. Buglak
        
        Subject: Re: Oh, you can't get to heaven on the Frankford El
        Message Number: 762857
        Posted by: DB
        Date: Thu Feb 5 17:17:35 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Oh, you can't get to heaven on the Frankford El posted by Michael S. Buglak on January 30, 1998 at 18:08:54: It seems as you are flying on the El between 15 and 30 the tracks separate and what appears to be a ramp is in the middle of the tunnel - is this the old station? Or the old El? Also, when the blue line (MFSE) de-railed around 30th a few years back, is it true they actually had to dig up the street to get down there?
        
        Subject: Re: Oh, you can't get to heaven on the Frankford El
        Message Number: 762859
        Posted by: Jim
        Date: Thu Feb 5 17:17:40 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Oh, you can't get to heaven on the Frankford El posted by DB on February 01, 1998 at 02:01:05: No, that is not from any old station. The EL did not stop at 30th St. Coming east it made stops at 46th, 40th, 36th, and 32nd, than it went down the hill, under the high-line, and made a left, than a right in front of 30th St. station. As it decended it crossed the river. On the east side of the river, on both sides of the el, the trolleys ran and there was a trolley station at 24th st., before both the EL and trolleys went underground. The old B&O railroad station was in the same 24th St. area. Than the trolleys would stop at 19th St. I don't recall them digging up the street and don't think that they did.
        
        Subject: Re: Oh, you can't get to heaven on the Frankford El
        Message Number: 762880
        Posted by: Bobw
        Date: Thu Feb 5 17:19:18 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Oh, you can't get to heaven on the Frankford El posted by DB on February 01, 1998 at 02:01:05: The tracks "split" to enter the Schuylkill River tunnel. The ramp to the old El was to the north of the current subway, between Market St and what is now Kennedy Blvd, roughly right where the Peco Building now sits. The '90 derailment occurred on the double crossover west of the 30th St station, at roughly the point at which the subway-surface ramps begin. The damaged cars were towed through the subway to the portal just east of 46th St, where they were then lifted out by crane and taken to 69th St Shops. One option being considered at the time was to cut the street to get to the tunnel, but it would require careful excavation and the possible shut-off of major utility lines. 22nd St trolley station is approximately in the area in which the tracks moved to the north to reach the old subway portal. 19th St is the only original (1907) station still in its as-built configuration. 15th St is greatly changed (the westbound side is in a completely different location from the original site) and Juniper St has been revised several times.
        
        Subject: Re: Oh, you can't get to heaven on the Frankford El
        Message Number: 762891
        Posted by: Brian
        Date: Thu Feb 5 17:21:12 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Oh, you can't get to heaven on the Frankford El posted by Bobw on February 01, 1998 at 18:53:35: How long was service interrupted? What caused the derailment?
        
        Subject: Re: Oh, you can't get to heaven on the Frankford El
        Message Number: 762932
        Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
        Date: Sat Feb 7 16:44:08 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Left out something - sorry! Oh, you can't get to heaven on the Frankford El posted by DB on February 01, 1998 at 15:29:26: There was a 24th subway-surface stop there (more at the surface) until the tunnel opened in 1955. You could see the 4 tunnel archways for years until they built the PECO Building over them. The first Market St. El stop was 32 St. Over a ten-year period (1946-56) Penn RR's 30th St. Station was opened; the old Chinese Wall stub terminal tracks to 15th St were replaced by Pennsylvania (now JFK) Blvd. and a RR tunnel to be used by commuter trains only; the Market St. El was replaced by a subway from 24 to 45 St, and the Woodland Avenue SW Phila. trolleys (Woodland Avenue used to branch off from Market Street) were put underground beneath the Drexel Institute of Technology (now Univ.) and Univ. of Pennsylvania campuses.

Thread title: Re: New Q train cars. (I Love the R40) (762601)
Started on Fri Jan 30 14:23:38 1998, by Lou from Brooklyn

Subject: Re: New Q train cars. (I Love the R40)
Message Number: 762601
Posted by: Lou from Brooklyn
Date: Fri Jan 30 14:23:38 1998

In Reply to: [7]Re: New Q train cars. posted by Steve on January 24, 1998 at 18:44:31: As one of those Q line riders who happens to be white and non Russian too, I love the 40 slants. Took my 4 yr old nephew on a head end run. The 40 is the only car type he can stand on his own two feet and look at the front (my arms thank you R40!!). He stood the whole ride from 50st to Kings Highway making believe he was the driving the train. He told me we had 10 coaches and the D train had only 8 as we passed it on the bridge (thanks to PBS and Thomas the Tank Engine for the coaches). R40, has better heat. Love the warm toasty tush if you do get a seat. Better side windows too and the best A/C of the lot.

Thread title: From LI to anywhere in NYC for $1.50 (762624)
Started on Fri Jan 30 14:24:37 1998, by AF

Subject: From LI to anywhere in NYC for $1.50
Message Number: 762624
Posted by: AF
Date: Fri Jan 30 14:24:37 1998

At Hempstead Bus Terminal transfer to N6, take it to 179th Street in Jamaica to the F train. That simple! Only with Metrocard.
- Subject: From LI to anywhere in NYC for $1.50
- Message Number: 762625
- Posted by: AF
- Date: Fri Jan 30 14:24:40 1998
  
  At Hempstead Bus Terminal transfer to N6, take it to 179th Street in Jamaica to the F train. That simple! Only with Metrocard.
  - Subject: From LI to anywhere in NYC for $1.50
  - Message Number: 762626
  - Posted by: AF
  - Date: Fri Jan 30 14:24:44 1998
    
    At Hempstead Bus Terminal transfer to N6, take it to 179th Street in Jamaica to the F train. That simple! Only with Metrocard.

Thread title: Swiss links (762641)
Started on Fri Jan 30 14:25:24 1998, by GAR

Subject: Swiss links
Message Number: 762641
Posted by: GAR
Date: Fri Jan 30 14:25:24 1998

Here might be some links of interest....[7]A link to Swiss narrow gauge & tram pages and some [8]Zurich Rapid Transit tram photos.

Thread title: S40 Howland Hook Extension (762647)
Started on Fri Jan 30 14:25:38 1998, by Steve L

Subject: S40 Howland Hook Extension
Message Number: 762647
Posted by: Steve L
Date: Fri Jan 30 14:25:38 1998

I am requesting assistance in obtaining a hand drawn diagram of the Howland Hook Terminal and the exact routing of the S40 within the Terminal,,including the Western Av Entrance and Bus Stops and Surrounding Buildings Thank you Steve
- Subject: Re: S40 Howland Hook Extension
- Message Number: 762655
- Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
- Date: Fri Jan 30 14:25:59 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]S40 Howland Hook Extension posted by Steve L on January 27, 1998 at 00:39:29: Try contacting the Port Authority. As for the s40, It runs down Richmond Terrace to Western Ave, then down Western Ave to the entrance to Howland Hook.
  - Subject: Re: S40 Howland Hook Extension
  - Message Number: 762672
  - Posted by: Steve L
  - Date: Fri Jan 30 14:26:48 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: S40 Howland Hook Extension posted by Hank Eisenstein on January 27, 1998 at 11:47:32: Would anyone know a DIRECT tele number

Thread title: Culver Demolition Captions (was Re: Www.nycsubway.org News - 1/26/1998) (762649)
Started on Fri Jan 30 14:25:43 1998, by Mark S Feinman

Subject: Culver Demolition Captions (was Re: Www.nycsubway.org News - 1/26/1998)
Message Number: 762649
Posted by: Mark S Feinman
Date: Fri Jan 30 14:25:43 1998

In Reply to: [8]Www.nycsubway.org News - 1/26/1998 posted by David Pirmann - Web Site Host on January 26, 1998 at 10:13:11: Dave ... Did Jeff Saltzman supply captions with his photos? If not, I recognize some of the shots and can supply some. Let me know. --Mark

Thread title: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas (762656)
Started on Fri Jan 30 14:26:04 1998, by Michael S. Buglak

Subject: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas
Message Number: 762656
Posted by: Michael S. Buglak
Date: Fri Jan 30 14:26:04 1998

Having followed SEPTA for almost 15 years, one thing that has always struck me about it is the seemingly high number of vehicles in service with scrambled, blank, or just plain incorrect destination signs. In the past week, I've seen an inbound R6 train from Norristown displaying "R7 Trenton" signs, a Route 33(?) Neoplan bus at 19th & Arch Streets with "20 Brookwood"(Route 20 operates in NE Philly, far from Route 33), several Ikaruses (Ikari?) with blank signs, & assorted other examples. Somehow, on my visits to NYC, it seems that NYCT vehicles are much more consistent in displaying correct signs. Does NYCT have any policy on correct signage on buses (& subway trains) regarding a vehicle operating with incorrect signs (like an uptown M15 with "M15 South Ferry")? As always, any info much appreciated! Michael S. Buglak :)
- Subject: Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas
- Message Number: 762657
- Posted by: Adam
- Date: Fri Jan 30 14:26:06 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Destination (Sign) Dilemmas posted by Michael S. Buglak on January 27, 1998 at 14:02:26: From my experience, the destination signs on buses and subways are accurate practically all of the time. One thing I've noticed on subways is that while the first car is always displaying the correct route sign, often other cars in the train are not. On buses, I've seen twice the electronic sign in the front saying "Emergency Call 911" and I asked what was wrong on the bus but the driver said that it was just jammed. Not a very good feeling to get on a bus with that on the front!
  - Subject: Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas
  - Message Number: 762662
  - Posted by: Dan Lawrence
  - Date: Fri Jan 30 14:26:23 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas posted by Adam on January 27, 1998 at 14:27:04: From the Baltimore Perspective, I see many MTA vehicles (all with dot signs) that have missing, incorrect or just plain weird signs. Buses run with missing headsigns, rear route number displays that are blank or show a number different than what's on the front, and on front either blank, or (my favorite) "memory chip #2". One bus ran for several weeks with a perfect 19 SINAI HOSPITAL on the front - in reverse! LRV's show up (in trains) with different sign on each car. Example: 1st car - HUNT VALLEY; 2nd car - CROMWELL; 3rd car - NORTH AVE. I suspect that the electronics are just too fragile for the "chain gang" service that transit vehicles work under.
    - Subject: Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas
    - Message Number: 762665
    - Posted by: Michael Lyons
    - Date: Fri Jan 30 14:26:30 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Destination (Sign) Dilemmas posted by Michael S. Buglak on January 27, 1998 at 14:02:26: I am sure that every transit agency has a policy in regards to correct signs being displayed on transit vehicles. The problem lies in its implementation. In my short time as a Subway Conductor I have spent time on the terminal platforms changing signs on trains. If a train needs a sign change the Train Dispatcher will announce over the station PA system the track that the train is on and the class and/or destination that needs to be diplayed. For example: a train may come up with a class diplayed 6 LEX AVE LOCAL PELHAM EXP and need to be changed to: 6 LEX AVE LOCAL PELHAM LOCAL before going back downtown. Other times it may be that the south terminal displayed need to be changed. For example, on the Pelham Line all trains that stay in service after midnight need there destination sign to display 125th STREET Not BROOKLYN LEXINGTON AVE BRIDGE On MTA New York City Subway trains, the best place's to check for the class and destination is on the head end car and the two cars at the Condutors position. The Train Operator is held responsible for the 3 set's of signs at his position and the Conductor is held responsible for the 4 set's of signs at his position.
      - Subject: Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas
      - Message Number: 762673
      - Posted by: Dan Schwartz
      - Date: Fri Jan 30 14:26:54 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas posted by Michael Lyons on January 27, 1998 at 20:32:29: Last week I was on a midday #6 local from the Bronx to Manhattan. When I boarded it at Castle Hill Ave., the sign on the front had "6" in a diamond with "Express" under it. I was surprised at this, because I didn't think the express was still running, as indeed it was not. So I guess the front signs aren't always accurate, but I'll admit this was an exception. More commonly, as Michael Lyons points out, it will be signs on the sides of cars that are incorrect. Most commonly, the "class" sign (interesting term) will indicate the right letter or number, but the wrong particular sign when several are available, such as "(diamond) 5 Lexington Av Express/Bronx Thru Express" on a midday train that makes all stops in the Bronx. If most of the signs on a train are right, but a few are wrong, then probably no announcement will be made when it gets to the other terminal, and the incorrect signs will never be changed, right? Perhaps all the signs should be checked at each terminal, even if no change needs to be made in the "correct" signs. When the signs are right, it helps give the general impression that the system is being well run, and when they aren't, it gives the opposite impression. And why is it necessary to sometimes "lie" on signs about where a train comes from? For example, all the AM #5 Thru Expresses from 241st St. run with signs saying "Dyre Ave." as the northern terminal. I guess they will go there when they head back uptown, but couldn't the signs be changed when they reach Flatbush (or Utica) Ave.? Do they not remain there long enough to change the signs?
        
        Subject: Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas
        Message Number: 762674
        Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
        Date: Fri Jan 30 14:26:57 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas posted by Dan Lawrence on January 27, 1998 at 17:27:48: I've seen that, too. The most commonly used destination sign in Baltimore seems to be a piece of paper with the route and destination written on it with Magic Marker, Scotch-taped to the front window.
        
        Subject: Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas
        Message Number: 762676
        Posted by: Andrew Byler
        Date: Fri Jan 30 14:27:02 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Destination (Sign) Dilemmas posted by Michael S. Buglak on January 27, 1998 at 14:02:26: I have to agree with you that Septa signs on the railroads are somewhat confusing, and can occasionally be inaccurate. But what you saw may have been correct. A number of trains are now through-routed between different lines during normal operations. For example, currently, most R2 Warminster trains are paired with R1 Airport trains, and R2 Wilmington trains are paired with R6 Norristown runs. Periodically, other trains from various lines run through during the day - for example, one rush hour R7 Chesnut Hill East train originates on the R8 Chesnut Hill West three blocks away. In these cases, the destination is displayed, irregardless of origination on a different line. Eventually, I suppose they'll sort this all out, and new electronic signs are being put in place on the Silverliner IV's which should help. Andy Byler
        
        Subject: Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas
        Message Number: 762679
        Posted by: Michael S. Buglak
        Date: Fri Jan 30 14:27:07 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas posted by Andrew Byler on January 28, 1998 at 10:12:45: Yes, there are several SEPTA RRD trains that are through-routed like Andrew describes. My favorite is train #4646, which originates in Trenton & terminates in Norristown. SEPTA uses the 4000-series train numbers for these trips. (The 2nd digit in a 4000-series train number is the number of the line on which the train terminates.) The train I referred to in my post was train #6613, which is the morning "Schyulkill Valley Flyer" departing Norristown (Elm St.) @ 7:00a & terminating @ 30th Street @ 7:46a, BTW. Michael S. Buglak
        
        Subject: Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas
        Message Number: 762680
        Posted by: Wayne Johnson
        Date: Fri Jan 30 14:27:11 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Destination (Sign) Dilemmas posted by Michael S. Buglak on January 27, 1998 at 14:02:26: NYCT has gotten very good about correct sign on subways as well as buses. In the 1970 and 1980's many trains operated with "S SPECIAL" when they were borrowed from the line that they were usually assigned to. These were mostly R-40, 40M and R-42 classes. It was very common to see a D train with borrowed cars that did not have D line signs during this time. Usually they would be R-42's from the RR, AA/B or the BMT Eastern division. In other cases signs were being changed by vandals or pranksters. On the buses it's rare today to find one that has an incorrect sign. I think you'd sooner find one without a malfunctioning sign and that's pretty rare also. It was a problem when buses had the curtain signs. One common problem was when buses were transferred to different depots. When buses were transferred the fareboxes were removed as well as the destination sign . The depot receiving the buses would then put in their fareboxes and destination signs, but many times a bus would "escape" into service before it received it's new sign. I think some depots were better about this than others. For example I can remember plenty of buses from the old MABSTOA Coliseum and West Farms depots operating without signs, but I was extremely rare to find a bus from Flushing (now Casey Stengel) without a sign. In fact NYCTA depots would also change the side signs (near the exit door), whereas MABSTOA usually did not do this. All of this solved itself when Grumman 870 and Jimmy RTS coaches started arriving with dot-matrix signs.
        
        Subject: Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas
        Message Number: 762681
        Posted by: Wayne Johnson
        Date: Fri Jan 30 14:27:13 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas posted by Dan Schwartz on January 28, 1998 at 09:04:51: In response to your question about signs that "lie" about their origin. I think it's done so they don't have to do it at the other terminal It happens now on the C line. During the rush hours you will sometimes see southbound C train that started it's run at Bedford Park Blvd, Bronx displaying "Euclid Ave, Brooklyn" as it's south terminal and "145 Street, Manhattan" as it's north terminal. In this case both are correct since it would no longer be rush hour when the train made it's return (northbound) trip and would only go as far as 145th Street.
        
        Subject: Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas
        Message Number: 762688
        Posted by: Dan Lawrence
        Date: Sat Jan 31 23:09:33 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 28, 1998 at 09:44:06: Absolutely correct. The latest "gag" among the bus operators is that standard equipment now includes a large, black marker.
        
        Subject: Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas
        Message Number: 762691
        Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
        Date: Sat Jan 31 23:09:39 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas posted by Wayne Johnson on January 28, 1998 at 10:46:12: Speaking of destination signs, On almost all NYCT buses, the sign computer is tied into the farebox computer. If you board a bus that has an incorrect destination sign, ask the driver about it before you insert your metrocard or recieve a transfer. The sign is indicative of the direction and route the farebox think's it's on. Additionally, I just saw one of the New Flyer D60's with an LED front destination sign, instead of the usual flip-dots... -Hank
        
        Subject: Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas
        Message Number: 762692
        Posted by: Michael Lyons
        Date: Sat Jan 31 23:09:42 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas posted by Dan Schwartz on January 28, 1998 at 09:04:51: As far as the AM 5 Thru Exp. are concerned, they actually start from the 239th St yard and there first stop is 238th St. The same in the PM they terminat at 238th St and then go to the 239th St yard. In the AM the first trip back North terminats at Dyre Av and then most go between Dyre and Bowling Green. I think the little white "lie" is justified. I'm still very new at this and could be wrong, if anyone knows for sure if "any" AM 5 Thru Exp. start at 241st and White Plains Road please speak up.
        
        Subject: Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas
        Message Number: 762693
        Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
        Date: Sat Jan 31 23:09:45 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas posted by Wayne Johnson on January 28, 1998 at 10:59:22: I think the biggest problem with this isn't a C that terminates at 145st displaying 'C Conccourse/8th Ave/Fulton', but the 2 and 3 trains that ar being short turned at 96st with the signs reading anything from 149st/Grand Concourse to 241st/White Plains Road to 148st/Lenox Terminal, all on the SAME TRAIN!! The first car may say 96st, but the second car would say any of the other destinations. Although as a chronic nitpicker, the signs with the wrong lines on them bug me a bit. -Hank
        
        Subject: Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas
        Message Number: 762694
        Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
        Date: Sat Jan 31 23:09:47 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas posted by Michael Lyons on January 28, 1998 at 16:59:36: When the constuction and delays on the 2 started, the 5 to 238st started to go all the way to 241st. Weather they opriginate there or not... -Hank
        
        Subject: Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas
        Message Number: 762696
        Posted by: Steve B
        Date: Sat Jan 31 23:09:51 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas posted by Dan Schwartz on January 28, 1998 at 09:04:51: Unless I'm mistaken, the motorman is supposed to verify that the correct information is displayed on the bulkhead signs. I remember riding a C train out of Bedford Park back in Oct. 1988, when the R-10s were still running on this line. The bulkhead route sign was set to HH (I believe Rockaway shuttles were designated as H trains back then). The motorman walked into the car and lifted the hinged lid behind the roll signs to check the settings. I casually asked, "HH?", whereupon the motorman changed the sign to read "C". I also remember seeing D trains of R-27/30 units labeled "DD" on several occasions around 1979-80. I found it odd that this class of cars would have DD signs at all, since to my knowledge there never was a DD route. They must have salvaged some of the roller curtains from R1/9s (which originally had every single and double letter code from A to F) as they were being scrapped. But why DD and no D? That's New York for you... By the way, did you know that the train used in the chase sequence in The French Connection is incorrectly labeled as an N? Most of that sequence was filmed under the West End line, and the cars used in the film (R-42s 4572 and 4573 had the film equipment) normally ran on the N line and had no B signs. The front end of the train appears very briefly a couple of times during the movie, so it's easy to miss. Brian Cudahy pointed all of this out in the first edition of Under the Sidewalks of New York.
        
        Subject: Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas
        Message Number: 762697
        Posted by: Steve B
        Date: Sat Jan 31 23:09:53 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas posted by Dan Schwartz on January 28, 1998 at 09:04:51: Unless I'm mistaken, the motorman is supposed to verify that the correct information is displayed on the bulkhead signs. I remember riding a C train out of Bedford Park back in Oct. 1988, when the R-10s were still running on this line. The bulkhead route sign was set to HH (I believe Rockaway shuttles were designated as H trains back then). The motorman walked into the car and lifted the hinged lid behind the roll signs to check the settings. I casually asked, "HH?", whereupon the motorman changed the sign to read "C". I also remember seeing D trains of R-27/30 units labeled "DD" on several occasions around 1979-80. I found it odd that this class of cars would have DD signs at all, since to my knowledge there never was a DD route. They must have salvaged some of the roller curtains from R1/9s (which originally had every single and double letter code from A to F) as they were being scrapped. But why DD and no D? That's New York for you... By the way, did you know that the train used in the chase sequence in The French Connection is incorrectly labeled as an N? Most of that sequence was filmed under the West End line, and the cars used in the film (R-42s 4572 and 4573 had the film equipment) normally ran on the N line and had no B signs. The front end of the train appears very briefly a couple of times during the movie, so it's easy to miss. Brian Cudahy pointed all of this out in the first edition of Under the Sidewalks of New York.
        
        Subject: Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas
        Message Number: 762705
        Posted by: Eric B
        Date: Sat Jan 31 23:10:24 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas posted by Hank Eisenstein on January 28, 1998 at 16:38:24: I always wondered why buses didn't use LED signs. Where are these running?
        
        Subject: Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas
        Message Number: 762706
        Posted by: Wayne Johnson
        Date: Sat Jan 31 23:10:28 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas posted by Eric B on January 28, 1998 at 22:46:11: The New Flyer artics are assigned to Kingsbridge depot. The buses operate on routes: Bx1, Bx2 & Bx55. 40 more of these coaches will be delivered soon, most will go to Gun HIll depot in the Bronx.
        
        Subject: Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas
        Message Number: 762708
        Posted by: Wayne Johnson
        Date: Sat Jan 31 23:10:33 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas posted by Steve B on January 28, 1998 at 17:42:26: You're right about the R-27/30's on the D line - I remember this well. Also during the early 1980's when all of the R-38's were assigned to the AA & B line the side signs (non-color coded) did not have a B sign. They also operated with "BB 6 Avenue Local". On the ends they had a color coded sign with the correct "B" in the black background. The destination sign had been removed from the head/rear end leaving only the letter.
        
        Subject: Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas
        Message Number: 762709
        Posted by: Joe M
        Date: Sat Jan 31 23:10:35 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas posted by Dan Lawrence on January 28, 1998 at 13:57:40: The Marker allways works though. The electronic signs on buses are actually pretty reliable. The run numbers are harder to get coordinated with the right run though. The roll curtains are still the easiest to read, can be color coded to help people with poor vision find the right buses but they are expesnive to update for route changes. Sometimes simpler was better.
        
        Subject: Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas
        Message Number: 762711
        Posted by: Dan Lawrence
        Date: Sat Jan 31 23:10:43 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas posted by Joe M on January 28, 1998 at 23:28:35: I still am not in favor of electronic signs, but only for the "inform the passenger" mode. I know that all the possible signs can be coded on 1 or 2 chips and every vehicle can be used on every line, but the electronics are still too fragile IMHO. Just as a side: At the Baltimore Streetcar Museum, our 1930 Peter Witt was used on every line in the system that had loops at each end. To equip 6119 with correct signs for every line that used Witts takes 5 sets of roll signs, 2 identical rolls for each set. Exactly what the company did between 1930 and 1955. That was typical of every streetcar in the Baltimore system. That (and complete bus fleet interchangability) was why systems retrofitted older fishbowls with dot signs about 1985, even if they don't work right 50 per cent of the time. Maybe LED signs may be more reliable. We shall see.
        
        Subject: Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas
        Message Number: 762724
        Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
        Date: Sat Jan 31 23:11:13 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas posted by Dan Lawrence on January 29, 1998 at 00:25:02: What gets me about those electronic signs is that on the older ones you need 2 alternating displays to get the name right. On more recent ones here in Washington they can finally display two lines of text at a time. I hate on the older electronic signs when it says "70 Silver", then "Spring Station", for example. The worst is when the words "Good Evening" or "Have a Nice Day" are put in the cycle also. It seems that in NYC some of the trains have electronic signs, like the F, N, and R trains. While they have always looked right to me, the line color (orange, yellow, etc.) is no longer on the sign. DC trains have electronic signs too. The front has the word "Red" or "Blue" in yellow lit letters, which seems strange to me (plus an unlit piece of cardboard showing the color hanging on the front door). The signs on the sides have two vertical lines of the correct color followed by the destination in yellow lights. But they are almost never wrong. The Baltimore and Miami trains have electronic signs, too, with almost no room for a destination. In Baltimore "Johns" alternates with "Hopkins". "Luckily" (not really) both systems have only one line so no one has to read them anyway. Chicago's idea was the cleverest. Just say which train it is, let the rider figure out where the train is going by what platform it is on. Their signs say something like "Congress-O'Hare" on a blue sign. In NYC that wouldn't work so well because the destinations of lots of trains change. Enough rambling for now...
        
        Subject: Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas
        Message Number: 762730
        Posted by: Steve B
        Date: Sat Jan 31 23:11:31 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas posted by Wayne Johnson on January 28, 1998 at 23:01:12: There was a similar variation on the B theme on R-32s when they were new. The B line as we know it today (regular weekday service) debuted when the Chrystie St. connection opened. It replaced both the West End T route and the rush-hour BB service. Prior to 1967, as far as I know, there had never been a B line, and while the R-1/9s had B signs, including a "B/6th Ave. Express" on the side route signs, the R-32s and R-38s did not - at least not on the bulkhead roller curtain; I never saw a "B/6th Ave. Express" marking on the side signs of R-32s or R-38s. I vividly remember seeing B trains of R-32s with a B covering the BB marking (which was still visible) on the end bulkhead sign, as well as a similar B covering the BB on the side route sign of each car. Subsequently, colored marker roller curtains were installed in the bulkhead destination sign openings on R-32s, R-38s, and most R-16s. I would guess the reason they wanted a "B/6th Ave. Local" designation was because the B ran - and still runs - local along Central Park West. It didn't always run express along 6th Ave back then - only during rush hours. On top of that, between Nov 26, 1967 and July 1, 1968, B trains terminated at W. 4th St. during non-rush hours. This is because while the 6th Ave. express tracks went into service on Nov.26, the 57th St.-6th Ave. station didn't open until July 1, 1968. After July 1, B trains terminated at 57th St during non-rush hours and ran local along 6th Ave; during rush hours, they terminated at 168th St-Wash. Hts., running express along 6th Ave. and local along Cental Park West. It wasn't until much later (when the 63rd St tunnel opened, perhaps?) that the B began running express along 6th Ave during middays, evenings, and weekends. Sorry about rambling on and on - I never get tired of talking about the New York subway.
        
        Subject: Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas
        Message Number: 762737
        Posted by: Dan Schwartz
        Date: Sat Jan 31 23:11:50 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas posted by Steve B on January 28, 1998 at 17:42:26: I knew about the N-on-the-B-line in the "French Connection" movie. I wondered why it was done. It seems unlikely that the R-42 cars used in the movie wouldn't have both "N" and "B" on the same roll signs, though I guess it is possible. Another theory I heard (or read) is that the movie director wanted the sign to be colorful, but the "B" at the time was represented by a black background, not colorful enough. So they went with the "N" sign instead. Anyway, N trains are sometimes rerouted via the B line, so seeing such a train is not impossible.
        
        Subject: Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas
        Message Number: 762767
        Posted by: Steve B
        Date: Thu Feb 5 17:10:37 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas posted by Dan Schwartz on January 29, 1998 at 17:00:50: According to Brian Cudahy, when equipment was selected for filming The French Connection, it was in the middle of winter, and car washers were out of commission (imagine that!), and the producers wanted the cleanest cars they could find. This was before the graffiti epidemic. It just so happened that the cars chosen didn't have any B signs. As I mentioned earlier, the N on the car end appears maybe twice in the movie, and then only very briefly. However, there is vindication: if you recall, the motorman collapses in the movie at the end of the chase sequence, and a tripper stops the train, but not before it crashes into a laid up B train of R-32s - whose last car does display a black B sign. Also, if you observe closely, the train in the chase sequence doesn't always stay on the local track. In several scenes, it runs on the center track! I'm sure this was done in order to minimize service disruption, and besides, chances are the average moviegoer wouldn't notice, anyway. Speaking of movies, there is a marking discrepancy in the subway sequence of Nighthawks. It's not that easy to spot, though. It occurs at the point where Sylvester Stallone gets ready to kick out the storm door window while attempting to enter the train. If you recall, they used a train of restored R1/9s in the movie (even the side destination signs were illuminated!). The train was marked as a B train headed for Coney Island, and it was pulling into 57th St.-6th Ave, although the sequence was shot at Hoyt-Schermerhorn Sts. using one of the unused outer tracks. In one scene, Stallone and Billy Dee Williams are seen running alongside the train as it pulls out of the station with the camera at floor level. The last car of the train is correctly marked as B/Wash Hts-168th St and its storm door has a split window (an R-6, R-7, or R-9). After Stallone and Williams manage to jump onto the last car, Williams tries the storm door and discovers - DUH! - that it's locked. The camera pulls away as Stallone grabs onto the stirrups getting ready to kick in the window, and at this point the last car suddenly has a single large pane of glass on its storm door (R-1 or R-4), and is marked as an S (oops!). On top of that, the storm door magically unlocks. Oh, and one of the side signs says Kings Highway instead of Coney Island - but it is illuminated. I scrutinize subway footage in movies to the max - what can I say? Again, the average Joe Moviegoer probably won't notice any of this. P. S. One of the station signs at Hoyt-Schermerhorn wasn't covered with a 57th St. placard in the movie. You have to advance the film one frame at a time on your VCR to see it. It's visible between the car doors as Stallone tries to pry them open.
        
        Subject: Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas
        Message Number: 762816
        Posted by: Charles Fiori
        Date: Thu Feb 5 17:12:51 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas posted by Dan Schwartz on January 29, 1998 at 17:00:50: In the days when the R40/42s were delivered, cars had limited signage. The different sets were as follows: 1. A, AA, B, S 2. CC, D, S 3. E, F, S 4. EE, GG, N, S 5. QJ, KK, LL, M, N, QB, S 6. RR, S Go figure.
        
        Subject: Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas
        Message Number: 762817
        Posted by: Charles Fiori
        Date: Thu Feb 5 17:12:54 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 29, 1998 at 09:40:30: Here in Chicago, they recently went to another iteration of their signs. There are actually destinations and not just routes. Brown line trains (old Ravenswood) say "Loop", "Kimball", or "Belmont". Blue line trains say "O'Hare", "Rosemont", "Forest Park", or "Douglas-Cicero", etc.

Thread title: QueensBorough Plaza (762659)
Started on Fri Jan 30 14:26:11 1998, by Zack

Subject: QueensBorough Plaza
Message Number: 762659
Posted by: Zack
Date: Fri Jan 30 14:26:11 1998

what does the layout of Qbp look like. i saw pictures of it on the line- by-line and it made me even more confused. does anyone have a map of what this looks like
- Subject: Re: QueensBorough Plaza
- Message Number: 762660
- Posted by: Todd Glickman
- Date: Fri Jan 30 14:26:13 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]QueensBorough Plaza posted by Zack on January 27, 1998 at 15:14:29: Track maps for the entire system are available on this most excellent site! See the [9]Small Queens map for the area around Queensboro Plaza.
  - Subject: Re: QueensBorough Plaza
  - Message Number: 762661
  - Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
  - Date: Fri Jan 30 14:26:17 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]QueensBorough Plaza posted by Zack on January 27, 1998 at 15:14:29: A short answer is: The two northbound (eastbound) trains share the upper platform (BMT on the left, IRT on the right). The two Manhattan-bound trains share the lower platform, just beneath it, inbound BMT under outbound BMT, inbound IRT under outbound IRT. There is one x-shaped switch track on the outbound section just after the platform, I believe. And that's it. Kind of like 7th Avenue on the D and E trains in Manhattan, just here both trains on the platform travel the same way.
    - Subject: Re: QueensBorough Plaza
    - Message Number: 762689
    - Posted by: Adam
    - Date: Sat Jan 31 23:09:35 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]QueensBorough Plaza posted by Zack on January 27, 1998 at 15:14:29: Did you happen to notice the photo of QbP where there is a train in the station on both levels? They are on the tracks on one side of the station. There is one island platform and there is one track on the other side of the platform. The upper and lower levels are pretty much identical to each other in platform and track layout. If people think it would be a good idea, I could get some pictures of the inside of the station, especially on the lower level where they still have the frosted glass windows, before the huge $10 million renovation begins and the station is changed forever. Let me know if this is a good idea. I would be glad to do so.
      - Subject: Re: QueensBorough Plaza
      - Message Number: 762690
      - Posted by: Jeffrey Davis
      - Date: Sat Jan 31 23:09:37 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: QueensBorough Plaza posted by Adam on January 28, 1998 at 15:35:47: >huge $10 million renovation begins and the station is changed forever ??? Wow. What do you know about that? Can you share a summary? Starting dates? Are they gonna trim off some of that excess iron? Give Queens Plaza back some airspace? Thanks, JD.
        
        Subject: Re: QueensBorough Plaza
        Message Number: 762710
        Posted by: Adam
        Date: Sat Jan 31 23:10:39 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: QueensBorough Plaza posted by Jeffrey Davis on January 28, 1998 at 15:45:45: I know of the renovation through a huge article in the Western Queens Gazette, a local newspaper in Queens. The article was in an issue a few months ago. I think that there were some postings on it back then on here. Anyway, they were going to start it soon but a large number of people protested because of the existing 63rd Street tunnel construction, saying that both projects at once would cause incredible congestion in the area there. So the start date was delayed at least 6 months or so until they can clear the area out somehow. As for details I don't remember but if you can find a copy of the Gazette the article described everything.
        
        Subject: Re: QueensBorough Plaza
        Message Number: 762728
        Posted by: Lou from Brooklyn
        Date: Sat Jan 31 23:11:25 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: QueensBorough Plaza posted by Adam on January 29, 1998 at 00:07:58: I work right on Queens Plaza (near 29th St). The congestion is bad anyway. I am not looking foward to the NOISE of construction on the above ground station!!! N Train squeels enough coming around the curve.

Thread title: Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas (SEPTA) (762663)
Started on Fri Jan 30 14:26:26 1998, by DB

Subject: Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas (SEPTA)
Message Number: 762663
Posted by: DB
Date: Fri Jan 30 14:26:26 1998

In Reply to: [7]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas posted by Dan Lawrence on January 27, 1998 at 17:27:48: Back to SEPTA - I have seen a bus headsign say Training Bus/Take Next Bus/ and the side sign says "30 Amtrack Sta" And then their was that one that almost hit me crossing the street (At one of Phila's "Real" crosswalks with the hand and guy) reading = SEPTA - - TAKE NEXT BUS... not a malfuntion, but somewhat humorous. I was ok but I think the woman behind me was about to have a heart attack... At 13th street after eating at the new Hard Rock, the green dot sign in the MFSE platform read "Green lines are running on or close to schedule... Diversion light should be flashing... some delays reported..." maybe you could figure that one out!
- Subject: Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas (SEPTA)
- Message Number: 762677
- Posted by: Bobw
- Date: Fri Jan 30 14:27:04 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas (SEPTA) posted by DB on January 27, 1998 at 19:00:17: I was always a fan of the old curtain type signs and was somewhat sad to see them go in favor of the dot types. The argument that was always given was that the electronic signs afforded more flexibility, could be revised easier, etc etc. I keep seeing the same problems noted in other postings here in Phila. Most of it is driver laziness - they punch in what they believe to be the correct code but never check the readout, even though it displays on the number-key panel. Maintenance is also lacking. The most interesting signs I have seen on SEPTA buses are the "test pattern", which runs through a series of symbols, and one that read something along the lines of #$%^*@*, which reminded me of what you see in the comics when characters are using foul language. Maybe the bus is trying to tell us something. $*%#) potholes? I have also witnessed a good number of "Police" displays on the signs. This occurred once when I was on a bus - a police car pulled the bus over, and the officer ran onto the bus looking for trouble. As I was the only passenger on the bus, I was a little fearful what was going to happen. Obviously, I was unaware that the "police" sign had come up on the display. The operator explained to the cop that he had not called for police and the whole affair was straightened out. I later asked the operator how this could have happened. He explained that there is a hidden trip switch below the dash which operators can use to activate the police sign, which also sends a message over the radio to the dispatcher for police assist. Apparently, when some bumps in the road are encountered, the switch can be accidentally tripped. I often wonder about putting fragile electronic instruments on transit vehicles. Bring back sign curtains!
  - Subject: Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas (SEPTA)
  - Message Number: 762684
  - Posted by: Michael S. Buglak
  - Date: Fri Jan 30 14:27:22 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas (SEPTA) posted by Bobw on January 28, 1998 at 10:17:35: The "HELP GET POLICE" message was especially a problem on SEPTA's RTS busesbefore SEPTA retired them in 1997. These buses were delivered with roll signs in 1980, & SEPTA retrofitted them with electronic signs in 1987. The control unit used was the type with (4) thumbwheels to set the sign & a push button. There was no display readout; the operator had to exit the bus to see what the sign was displaying. The "POLICE" message had a habit of going on when the bus hit a bad pothole & the driver would not have a clue what the sign was reading at the time! Also, the only way to clear the police message on a SEPTA RTS was to shut down the bus (not just the sign). I remember a couple of years ago, when SEPTA combined Route 42 with the Wycombe branch of Route 21, how many Route 42 drivers displayed "21 WYCOMBE" since there was no "42 WYCOMBE" sign programmed, & many riders waited forever for a Route 42 before they caught on to what SEPTA was doing. (Why would SEPTA bother programming new signs for a bus they would scrap in a couple of months, anyway?) The other thing I remember is that in 1987, SEPTA changed Routes D & E to 21 & 65 & issued notices saying that "some buses will continue to display the Route D & E designations for about a month". It turned out to be more like over a year! From all the postings to this thread, it seems like I must have really struck a nerve! Thanks for all the insights! Michael S. Buglak :)
    - Subject: Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas (SEPTA)
    - Message Number: 762695
    - Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
    - Date: Sat Jan 31 23:09:49 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas (SEPTA) posted by Michael S. Buglak on January 28, 1998 at 12:56:00: What I miss about the curtain signs is that the destination signs now only seem to say 's59 Hylan Blvd, or even better, just 's59 (or s54) Eltingville' Eltingville is a big place! Turns out these buses terminate at richmond ave and Hylan Blvd. by 'Eltingville', they could be terminating anywhere. I always thought of eltingville as the area near the Eltingville train station. or s78 Tottenville. The 78 isn't the only bus to tottenville. Whatever happened to 'via', as in s78 via Hylan Blvd (in blue) Tottenville (in Red)
      - Subject: Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas (SEPTA)
      - Message Number: 762701
      - Posted by: Bobw
      - Date: Sat Jan 31 23:10:14 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas (SEPTA) posted by Michael S. Buglak on January 28, 1998 at 12:56:00: The same thing is still occurring on Routes 124 and 125. The Center City terminal was moved to 13th & Market in October, yet I have just recently noticed this change on the signs on the buses. Most continue to carry "Penn Center Philadelphia". The other annoying aspect of these signs is the return to the hyphen, rather than the ampersand, for an intersection destination. A "15-Spruce" display next to a Route 27 or 32 line number implies something different to a non-Philadelphian. Making it "15 & Spruce" would be much clearer. I recall, back in the days of curtain signs (sigh!), a college classmate told me that the Route 2 went to Center City from the Penn Campus. I told him it did not, but he assured me that the front sign on the bus he took said "2-Chestnut via Independence Mall". Obviously, the route number half of the curtain was missing since the destination of what was actually a Route 42 bus was 2nd and Chestnut. This person mistook it for "route 2" which went to "Chestnut via I.M.". What I dislike about the dot signs the most is their legibility at night and in rainy weather. NJT buses have defroster grilles in the signs for the rain, but SEPTA's do not. The larger signs on the Ikarus buses are helpful at night, but I've noticed that quite often the backlights are burned out. !

Thread title: Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas (MBTA) (762666)
Started on Fri Jan 30 14:26:32 1998, by Timothy Speer

Subject: Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas (MBTA)
Message Number: 762666
Posted by: Timothy Speer
Date: Fri Jan 30 14:26:32 1998

In Reply to: [8]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas (SEPTA) posted by DB on January 27, 1998 at 19:00:17: I live close to the route of the #39 bus in Boston, and often see buses bound for Copley Square that say Forest Hills, and vice-versa. I wonder if this is a problem on any other lines in Boston...
- Subject: Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas (MBTA)
- Message Number: 762669
- Posted by: Dan Lawrence
- Date: Fri Jan 30 14:26:39 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas (MBTA) posted by Timothy Speer on January 27, 1998 at 21:52:42: See!!! What did I say - it's the electronics that can't take the pounding on a bus or the "sweep it out and get it on the street" operations mentality of the transit industry. If our PC's constatly give us problems (and we tend to "baby them) then what will a computerized dot sign do? Other than giving us all gag lines to enliven our transit lives, I believe electronic signs are a poor service successor to the traditional roller destination signs.
  - Subject: Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas (MBTA)
  - Message Number: 762670
  - Posted by: Jeremy Whiteman
  - Date: Fri Jan 30 14:26:41 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas (MBTA) posted by Dan Lawrence on January 28, 1998 at 01:02:05: I think many of the problems(if the sign is working fine, just running the wrong destination) might lie with the driver just not changing it. AFAIK- When the driver is reversing at one of their terminals, they are supposed to enter "fare codes"(I think that's what they are called) for each trip(I think to determine passenger count). Forgetting to change the sign as well might just be an accident. I always see busses on the #57 heading towards Watertown with a 57-Kennmore sign(maybe drivers aren't as concerned because there is only one bus on the line and they assume passengers know which way each destination is?), I have also seen the #39 issues, as well as #92 and #93's with the wrong destination sign showing. You should see the problems that arise when a 92 or 93 rolls through Haymarket heading downtown during evening rush hour with one of their outbound signs showing.

Thread title: Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas (NYC-Buses) (762668)
Started on Fri Jan 30 14:26:37 1998, by Fernando Perez

Subject: Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas (NYC-Buses)
Message Number: 762668
Posted by: Fernando Perez
Date: Fri Jan 30 14:26:37 1998

In Reply to: [8]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas (MBTA) posted by Timothy Speer on January 27, 1998 at 21:52:42: There is a memo that states no bus must leave the depot if the signs are not operating. And cardboard signs with the route number on it are a definite no-no. However, when there is a pressing need to put a bus in service, occasionally it is put in service with a bad sign, but generally only for a "tripper", or a bus that will only do one or two trips like in the rush-hour and then it is brought back to the depot for repairs. With the new fareboxes, the sign is automatically changed when you enter your destination code on the box, but only with the 8000 series and up. This discourages incorrect signs because then the wrong data will be in the box thus affecting proper collection of data, etc. Also in prevents drivers from putting a bad sign because that information will be analyzed by management later on and it gives away what the operator did. These policies are in effect because of the Grumman years when many old buses were unretired and the DC buses did not have correct signage and carboard was used to display the route number and it gave a very bad impression of things.

Thread title: Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas (CTA) (762682)
Started on Fri Jan 30 14:27:16 1998, by John B. Bredin

Subject: Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas (CTA)
Message Number: 762682
Posted by: John B. Bredin
Date: Fri Jan 30 14:27:16 1998

In Reply to: [8]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas (MBTA) posted by Jeremy Whiteman on January 28, 1998 at 06:42:39: I agree. Here in Chicago, the main sign problem on buses -- for both roller signs and digital displays -- is that the right route is posted but the terminal wasn't changed when the bus turned around to go the other way. Mind you, this is a rare problem, but when the sign is wrong, its almost always that and it makes little difference whether it's old roller or new LED. A more unique problem arises for buses serving Navy Pier. As well as showing on the usual destination sign that the terminus is Navy Pier, there is a square wooden board mounted with pegs over the radiator with "SERVES NAVY PIER" and the outline of an old ship's wheel. This sign stays on the bus whether it is headed to or from the Pier, and that is intentional. More problematic, it is sometimes accidentally left on when the bus is put on another route running from the same garage, but which does not serve the Pier.

https://www.nycsubway.org/articles/talks/subtalk-199801.html
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