SubTalk Archive 12/1997

Thread title: LOOK AT MY ABOVE POSTING FOR THE CURRENT RECORD! (760029)
Started on Sat Dec 6 17:32:41 1997, by ____________________________________________________

Subject: LOOK AT MY ABOVE POSTING FOR THE CURRENT RECORD!
Message Number: 760029
Posted by: ____________________________________________________
Date: Sat Dec 6 17:32:41 1997

Thread title: Pets On Public Transportation (760033)
Started on Sat Dec 6 17:32:48 1997, by ____________________________________________________

Subject: Pets On Public Transportation
Message Number: 760033
Posted by: ____________________________________________________
Date: Sat Dec 6 17:32:48 1997
- Subject: Re: Pets On Public Transportation
- Message Number: 760034
- Posted by: ____________________________________________________
- Date: Sat Dec 6 17:32:52 1997
  - Subject: Re: Pets On Public Transportation
  - Message Number: 760036
  - Posted by: ____________________________________________________
  - Date: Sat Dec 6 17:33:00 1997
    - Subject: Re: Pets On Public Transportation
    - Message Number: 760037
    - Posted by: ____________________________________________________
    - Date: Sat Dec 6 17:33:03 1997
      - Subject: Re: Pets On Public Transportation
      - Message Number: 760039
      - Posted by: ____________________________________________________
      - Date: Sat Dec 6 17:33:07 1997
        
        Subject: Re: Pets On Public Transportation
        Message Number: 760065
        Posted by: Bill
        Date: Sat Dec 6 17:40:20 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Pets On Public Transportation posted by Timothy on November 28, 1997 at 10:21:49: I've never understood Amtrak's anti-pet policy. If you can send a pet in an airline cargo hold (and some airlines even allow small pets in carry on containers in the passenger compartment) I don't see why Amtrak trains equipped with baggage cars or sleeping cars couldn't be more accomodating. Bill
        
        Subject: Re: Pets On Public Transportation
        Message Number: 760502
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:35:24 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Pets On Public Transportation posted by Dan Lawrence on November 28, 1997 at 14:15:30: I don't know what MBTA's policy is, but while riding the Red Line on Saturday (11/29), I did see a dog and his owner get off the train at Quincy Adams garage. The dog did not appear to be a breed typical of a "seeing-eye" dog. --Mark

Thread title: extension of any NYC subway line? (760035)
Started on Sat Dec 6 17:32:57 1997, by ____________________________________________________

Subject: extension of any NYC subway line?
Message Number: 760035
Posted by: ____________________________________________________
Date: Sat Dec 6 17:32:57 1997
- Subject: Re: extension of any NYC subway line?
- Message Number: 760038
- Posted by: ____________________________________________________
- Date: Sat Dec 6 17:33:06 1997
  - Subject: Re: extension of any NYC subway line?
  - Message Number: 760046
  - Posted by: ____________________________________________________
  - Date: Sat Dec 6 17:33:24 1997
    - Subject: Re: extension of any NYC subway line?
    - Message Number: 760050
    - Posted by: ____________________________________________________
    - Date: Sat Dec 6 17:33:33 1997
      - Subject: Re: extension of any NYC subway line?
      - Message Number: 760070
      - Posted by: Jr
      - Date: Sat Dec 6 17:40:31 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]extension of any NYC subway line? posted by Lefty on November 28, 1997 at 12:03:59: keep dreaming.
        
        Subject: Re: extension of any NYC subway line?
        Message Number: 760079
        Posted by: Eric B
        Date: Sat Dec 6 17:40:52 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: extension of any NYC subway line? posted by ZAck on November 30, 1997 at 22:35:05: The "V" is on all signs, roll and digital. It was supposed to replace the Q which was supposed to Bway, byt with the unforseeable Manhattan Bridge scenario, they've combined the two routes into an extended Q, from what I hear. Personally, I'd prefer the separate routes.
        
        Subject: Re: extension of any NYC subway line?
        Message Number: 760148
        Posted by: Andrew Byler
        Date: Sat Dec 6 17:43:11 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]extension of any NYC subway line? posted by Lefty on November 28, 1997 at 12:03:59: Maybe this dream is a sign that the New York, Westchester and Boston will rise again and become part of the subway! Andy Byler
        
        Subject: Re: extension of any NYC subway line?
        Message Number: 760177
        Posted by: Daniel
        Date: Sat Dec 6 17:44:16 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: extension of any NYC subway line? posted by Andrew Byler on December 02, 1997 at 23:57:49: Actually, one option is to continue the #5 pass Dyre Avenue and into Westchester County... Since the 5 operates as an express during rush-hours in the 3 boroughs it runs through, adding a couple of stations up to New Rochelle (possibly Rye, but let's not get crazy) would not be a bad idea... Other lines where they could extend service are the E,F,J & Z lines... Since they are building the 63rd Street Connection, why not add a couple of stations that extend out further into Queens... Have the F run along Hillside Avenue until Springfield Boulevard, the E turn after the Parsons/Archer station, go back to Hillside, join up with the F, and contiue along until Springfield, and leave the J/Z where it is because this line makes many stops in Brooklyn and Queens...
        
        Subject: Re: extension of any NYC subway line?
        Message Number: 760195
        Posted by: Andrew Byler
        Date: Sat Dec 6 17:44:51 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: extension of any NYC subway line? posted by Daniel on December 03, 1997 at 18:41:32: So long as you are talking Queens, let me make my own suggestions: E to Laurelton/Rosedale out the LIRR as planned (you just need to punch the end of the tunnel ramp through to the surface). F to Springfield as you mentioned, with express service the entire length of Queens Blvd. provided by whatever line ends up running through the 63rd St. tunnel, as this will also be a 6th Ave. express, while the F is the 6th Ave. local and is only express to 71st. St. in Queens. When hell freezes over and a subway is built to replace the J/Z, talk about its extension can commence. As to the 5 going north, I've asked this before and never heard back - how much row from the Westchester is left? I know that the cut through Mount Vernon was filled in, but north of the Metro-North line, I believe the row is intact, although occupied by infernal roads north of Heathcote. I personally think it is a grand idea, and will continue to push it. Its even better with the eventual connection to the 2nd Ave line (after all, that project is just DELAYED, not abandoned!). Andy Byler

Thread title: OVERSHOOT!!! (760041)
Started on Sat Dec 6 17:33:12 1997, by ____________________________________________________

Subject: OVERSHOOT!!!
Message Number: 760041
Posted by: ____________________________________________________
Date: Sat Dec 6 17:33:12 1997
- Subject: Re: OVERSHOOT!!!
- Message Number: 760043
- Posted by: ____________________________________________________
- Date: Sat Dec 6 17:33:17 1997

Thread title: Re: Oops, I Meant *32nd* St & Other Tunnels (760042)
Started on Sat Dec 6 17:33:14 1997, by ____________________________________________________

Subject: Re: Oops, I Meant *32nd* St & Other Tunnels
Message Number: 760042
Posted by: ____________________________________________________
Date: Sat Dec 6 17:33:14 1997

Thread title: Re: Extension of the #7 Train (using the Port Washington branch) (760047)
Started on Sat Dec 6 17:33:27 1997, by ____________________________________________________

Subject: Re: Extension of the #7 Train (using the Port Washington branch)
Message Number: 760047
Posted by: ____________________________________________________
Date: Sat Dec 6 17:33:27 1997
- Subject: Re: Extension of the #7 Train (using the Port Washington branch)
- Message Number: 760078
- Posted by: Daniel
- Date: Sat Dec 6 17:40:50 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Re: Extension of the #7 Train (using the Port Washington branch) posted by Andrew Huie on November 29, 1997 at 00:33:32: It wouldn't be that bad an idea to replace the LIRR Port Washington line with the #7 or another train line... However, the majority of these riders (i.e. Manhasset, Little Neck) have rather nice incomes... Do you think they would consider riding the subway?

Thread title: Re: Extension of the #7 Train-Partialy Built (760048)
Started on Sat Dec 6 17:33:29 1997, by ____________________________________________________

Subject: Re: Extension of the #7 Train-Partialy Built
Message Number: 760048
Posted by: ____________________________________________________
Date: Sat Dec 6 17:33:29 1997

Thread title: R-40 on B line (760049)
Started on Sat Dec 6 17:33:31 1997, by ____________________________________________________

Subject: R-40 on B line
Message Number: 760049
Posted by: ____________________________________________________
Date: Sat Dec 6 17:33:31 1997
- Subject: Re: R-40 on B line
- Message Number: 760124
- Posted by: Bootsy
- Date: Sat Dec 6 17:42:16 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: R-40 on B line posted by Subman23 on November 30, 1997 at 18:03:56: Any R-42s on the B? Or R-32s?

Thread title: minutes of subway derby meeting on 11/29/12997 (760051)
Started on Sat Dec 6 17:33:36 1997, by ____________________________________________________

Subject: minutes of subway derby meeting on 11/29/12997
Message Number: 760051
Posted by: ____________________________________________________
Date: Sat Dec 6 17:33:36 1997
- Subject: Re: minutes of subway derby meeting on 11/29/12997
- Message Number: 760063
- Posted by: Adam
- Date: Sat Dec 6 17:40:16 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]minutes of subway derby meeting on 11/29/12997 posted by subway-buff on November 29, 1997 at 18:12:11: I have written and sent off a letter to the Guinness Book of World Records requesting information about the record. We should expect to hear from them in about 4-6 weeks. Hopefully we'll hear back by the next meeting. Hope everybody has some good ideas for a possible route! Thanks!!! --Adam
  - Subject: Re: minutes of subway derby meeting on 11/29/12997
  - Message Number: 760146
  - Posted by: Andrew Byler
  - Date: Sat Dec 6 17:43:07 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]minutes of subway derby meeting on 11/29/12997 posted by subway-buff on November 29, 1997 at 18:12:11: Depending on how far along my thesis is, I might be able to join you guys in March. Anyway, here is my two cents worth - you only have to cover each line once - i.e you can come into Coney Island on the F and leave on the B. Furthermore, riding the express down Fulton St. counts just as much as riding the local. A question in this area is the divergence of the Queens Blvd. Express from the local beyond Northern Blvd. I believe that it is legitmate to take the express and ignore the local, but I am not certain. A recommendation for devising routings: save long expresses which run at night for the last lines to cover - i.e. the D and E, and try to cram as many rush hour expresses in as possible, especially the J skip-stop if that actually saves time (I've never ridden it), and the Lexington Ave. Through-Express from the Bronx. A question - do you have to start and end at the same station? Otherwise, it is to our benefit to start somewhere like Far Rockaway or New Lots Ave. and end at Pelham Bay. Finally, a big help over previous attempts is the slimming down of the Rockaways Shuttle. This used to necessitate traversing the Rockaways in the middle of the night so as to get that last leg of the wye coming in from Borad Channel. What this means is that this leg may be covered during the day, when the expresses are running, as the wye is no longer in revenue service. Andy Byler ps. Aren't NYCTA subways schedules out there somewhere in netland? These would help the planning a lot.

Thread title: Rant and rave about the LIRR (long) (was: extending the 7) (760052)
Started on Sat Dec 6 17:33:39 1997, by ____________________________________________________

Subject: Rant and rave about the LIRR (long) (was: extending the 7)
Message Number: 760052
Posted by: ____________________________________________________
Date: Sat Dec 6 17:33:39 1997

Thread title: ATC (760053)
Started on Sat Dec 6 17:33:41 1997, by ____________________________________________________

Subject: ATC
Message Number: 760053
Posted by: ____________________________________________________
Date: Sat Dec 6 17:33:41 1997

Thread title: CTA equipment (760055)
Started on Sat Dec 6 17:39:52 1997, by Charles Fiori

Subject: CTA equipment
Message Number: 760055
Posted by: Charles Fiori
Date: Sat Dec 6 17:39:52 1997

Anyone know what happened to the CTA cars with the sloped fronts and the bi-fold passenger doors? They seemed to have disappeared. When the Green Line terminals were changed, I remember these cars trundling along Lake St, but now they seem to have vanished? Were they rebuilt? Scrapped?
- Subject: Re: CTA equipment
- Message Number: 760073
- Posted by: Bryan Layne
- Date: Sat Dec 6 17:40:38 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]CTA equipment posted by Charles Fiori on December 01, 1997 at 13:15:44: To my knowledge they have been retired.I believe they were still running when the CTA reformed all the lines but after that they were takin out of service.The CTA repainted then in dark green and antique paint for some anniversary,i think the south side main. The 3200 series cars made it possible to retire them.
  - Subject: Re: CTA equipment
  - Message Number: 760074
  - Posted by: me again
  - Date: Sat Dec 6 17:40:40 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: CTA equipment posted by Bryan Layne on December 01, 1997 at 17:50:49: i ment to say that they repainted only 2 cars.
    - Subject: Re: CTA equipment
    - Message Number: 760083
    - Posted by: Joe M
    - Date: Sat Dec 6 17:40:59 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: CTA equipment posted by me again on December 01, 1997 at 17:51:44: Cars in the series 1-50 (double ended so they could be operated as single cars or in train.)were retired from revenue service and are in work car service at the present time. The last time I saw them in Revenue Service was in 93 or 94 on the Skokie swift. All of the 6000 series cars that operated in pairs except for the restored pair are gone as far as I know. The Majority of the 6000 series cars were built from PCC streetcars as they were phased out of the surface fleet.
      - Subject: Re: CTA equipment
      - Message Number: 760104
      - Posted by: Ed Sachs
      - Date: Sat Dec 6 17:41:42 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]CTA equipment posted by Charles Fiori on December 01, 1997 at 13:15:44: I believe that you are referring to the 2000 series cars (Pullman Standard, 1964). These were all retired in 1994 when the green line was closed for rebuilding (new car deliveries after that provided the necessary rolling stock for the reopening in 1996). CTA has retained one pair. They were repainted in Pullman green with gold trim, lettered "South Side Rapid Transit", and re-numbered 1982 and 1992 for the L centennial in 1992. They are usually stored in the Lake/ Harlem yards, and can best be seen from passing Metra UP West line trains.
        
        Subject: Re: CTA equipment
        Message Number: 760117
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Sat Dec 6 17:42:05 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: CTA equipment posted by Ed Sachs on December 02, 1997 at 09:43:04: The other set of cars with the "folding blinker doors", the Budd-built 2200s (I THINK), are only run during rush hours because they are not accessible to users requiring wheelchairs and therefore violate the Americans With Disabilities Act. --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: CTA equipment
        Message Number: 760162
        Posted by: Ed Sachs
        Date: Sat Dec 6 17:43:45 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: CTA equipment posted by Mark S Feinman on December 02, 1997 at 14:06:54: Yes, the 2200 series (Budd, 1969) were the last cars purchased by the CTA with "blinker doors", as you said because of the need to make the cars ADA accessible. They were recently rebuilt, and still run on the Blue line in mixed trains with 2600 series cars (which have sliding doors). They run all day -- the only times you won't see them is late at night and on Sundays when they only run two car trains (all of the cars are married pairs).

Thread title: The Last Word (hopefully) on MetroCard (760056)
Started on Sat Dec 6 17:39:53 1997, by Lou from Middletown

Subject: The Last Word (hopefully) on MetroCard
Message Number: 760056
Posted by: Lou from Middletown
Date: Sat Dec 6 17:39:53 1997

Just a reminder for all those revolutionaries that don't like the MetroCard (for wharever reason): Back in 1924 there were probably alot of people who didn't like the replacement of the nice,friendly ticket chopper with the cold, impersonal turnstile! MetroCard IS more convienent to carry, has more uses, and most importantly of all, here to stay!!
- Subject: Re: The Last Word (hopefully) on MetroCard
- Message Number: 760062
- Posted by: Adam
- Date: Sat Dec 6 17:40:14 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]The Last Word (hopefully) on MetroCard posted by Lou from Middletown on December 01, 1997 at 13:42:09: Lou, I can't argue with you on two of your points, namely that Metrocard has more uses and that it is here to stay. But I can sincerely argue with you that it is more convenient to carry. It is definitely less convenient, as instead of having some loose tokens hanging around in your pocket that are easy to reach in and grab, a Metrocard is usually carried in the wallet, as people usually don't have loose cards sitting around in their pockets. This necessitates flashing your wallet in the subway, a dangerous move. This leaves you vulenerable to a potential mugging. Tokens are safer to use because you do not need to take your wallet out while underground. Also, tokens are more convenient to carry because you know how much fare you have just by looking. It is really embarassing to swipe your card in the turnstile only to find out that there is no more money left on it and the "Insufficient Fare" message pops up. With a Metrocard, you have to use that stupid Metrocard reader to find out how much is on the card which doesn't ever work. I had to swipe my card at least 20 times before it registered! So call me a disgruntled Metrocard user, I am never going to give up the token until I'm forced to by the TA. And even then I'll hoard them. Long live the token!
  - Subject: Re: The Last Word (hopefully) on MetroCard
  - Message Number: 760107
  - Posted by: Lou from Brooklyn
  - Date: Sat Dec 6 17:41:47 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: The Last Word (hopefully) on MetroCard posted by Adam on December 01, 1997 at 16:03:31: Worse than no enough fare while trying to enter the turnstile is ON THE BUS, card is taken and a LOUD BLOOP type noise is heard so everyone knows you don't have enough money. I guess that's better than "Hey You get back here, you only put in $1.25". I have yet to go 10 trips (one week) without having to "reswipe" at least once at a turnstile, that is still a problem.
    - Subject: Re: The Last Word (hopefully) on MetroCard
    - Message Number: 760126
    - Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
    - Date: Sat Dec 6 17:42:21 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: The Last Word (hopefully) on MetroCard posted by Lou from Brooklyn on December 02, 1997 at 11:39:24: Maybe the turnstiles/bus boxes (??) should make a bloop or beep when you card gets below $2.00, so you know you're running low??
      - Subject: Re: The Last Word (hopefully) on MetroCard
      - Message Number: 760127
      - Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
      - Date: Sat Dec 6 17:42:23 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: The Last Word (hopefully) on MetroCard posted by Philip Nasadowski on December 02, 1997 at 16:58:08: Hey, that's a great idea. Actually, it's too intelligent and simple for any system to actually implement it.
        
        Subject: Re: The Last Word (hopefully) on MetroCard
        Message Number: 760147
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Sat Dec 6 17:43:09 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: The Last Word (hopefully) on MetroCard posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 02, 1997 at 17:04:59: Actually you are incorrect. When my EZ Pass runs low, there is a yellow light at the toll booth to alert me.
        
        Subject: Re: The Last Word (hopefully) on MetroCard
        Message Number: 760153
        Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
        Date: Sat Dec 6 17:43:26 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: The Last Word (hopefully) on MetroCard posted by Lou from Brooklyn on December 02, 1997 at 11:39:24: I believe this will be the final word on Metrocards...the rumor in the TIMES today is that the TA will offer 12 for 10 metrocards (12 rides, $15) with the surplus, effectively reducing the fare to $1.25. The question I have though, is will they reduce the metrocard fare to $1.25, or will they only encode the extra $3 on a $15 dollar or more metrocard? At that point, it doesn't benifit a majority of riders. -Hank
        
        Subject: Re: The Last Word (hopefully) on MetroCard
        Message Number: 760160
        Posted by: Lou from Brooklyn
        Date: Sat Dec 6 17:43:41 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: The Last Word (hopefully) on MetroCard posted by Hank Eisenstein on December 03, 1997 at 07:33:52: I am waiting to find out how they will give the free rides as well. My normal habbit is to buy $21 worth of fare just because that's easy in paper money and gives an even amount of rides (execpt when I take the very rare S.I. Express bus and the $4 throws my whole plan out of wack).
        
        Subject: Re: The Last Word (hopefully) on MetroCard
        Message Number: 760161
        Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
        Date: Sat Dec 6 17:43:43 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: The Last Word (hopefully) on MetroCard posted by Hank Eisenstein on December 03, 1997 at 07:33:52: In reference to the $3 bonus on a $15 farecard, I do not see why this will not potentially benefit a majority of riders. Getting an extra $3 on a card for free is an incentive for people to buy a lot of rides at a time, which saves work for the token booth (a phrase soon to become as odd as "dialing a phone") person, and subliminally encouraging more transit use. Here in the Nation's Capital where I live, we get a 10% bonus on any fare card purchased for $20 or more. You get the bonus every time you put at least $20 into a farecard machine for a single card. If you are trading in an old card, you must add at least $20 to it. Needless to say, that is the only size farecard we buy in our family, except for the $5 daypass. Personally, I think a 20% bonus may be too much on a $15 purchase in New York. I would think a 10% bonus may be enough to get people to take advantage of it.
        
        Subject: Re: The Last Word (hopefully) on MetroCard
        Message Number: 760164
        Posted by: Peter Rosa
        Date: Sat Dec 6 17:43:48 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: The Last Word (hopefully) on MetroCard posted by Steve on December 02, 1997 at 23:55:24: A "low value" warning is more important for EZ Pass than for a MetroCard. If someone drives up to an EZ Pass lane at a toll booth and doesn't have sufficient value, it will be a major headache all around (especially at rush hour). On the other hand, if you go to enter the subway and your MetroCard has no remaining value, usually you can just go to the nearby token booth and add value (of course, it's not quite so easy with a bus).
        
        Subject: Re: The Last Word (hopefully) on MetroCard
        Message Number: 760209
        Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:07:35 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: The Last Word (hopefully) on MetroCard posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 03, 1997 at 09:37:00: but what of those who can't usually affford a $15 card (like myself) I usually wind up paying with change if I'm staying on SI, so I have what little money I am able to put on a Metrocard for when I make the trek to the bronx to see my girlfriend (I live in Staten Island) zTo top that off, I don't get my free transfer 1/2 the time..I'm working on timing the trip, but it's not easy... -Hank
        
        Subject: Re: The Last Word (hopefully) on MetroCard
        Message Number: 760237
        Posted by: si2000
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:08:31 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]The Last Word (hopefully) on MetroCard posted by Lou from Middletown on December 01, 1997 at 13:42:09: I wasn't crazy about MetroCard at first. I was very comfortable with the large $4.00 express bus tokens, plus I lost a MetroCard with $60.00 on it. But now I think it is the way of the future, with some improvements. I don't keep it in my wallet, but in a leather 'bus pass' type case. I use it daily on the SI express buses, but find that I now use the local buses and subways in Manhattan more than in pre-card days. The ultimate MetroCard would have - 1) automatic-replenishment similar to the succesful e-z pass toll collection system which bills your credit card when the balance is low. 2) A better reading mechanism on the buses, the current 'toaster' design is a bit time-consuming and as the equipment ages, will surely start eating up some cards. 3) Universal usage on franchised and non-franchised private buses, vans and anything else that moves on wheels in NYC. 4) Usable on PATH and NJT commuter buses.
        
        Subject: Re: The Last Word (hopefully) on MetroCard
        Message Number: 760240
        Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:08:39 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: The Last Word (hopefully) on MetroCard posted by si2000 on December 05, 1997 at 08:53:53: "The ultimate MetroCard would have - 1) automatic-replenishment similar to the succesful e-z pass toll collection system which bills your credit card when the balance is low." Response: EZ-Pass is used at the relatively few toll booths in the area, where lots of computer equipment can be stored, where one EZ-pass radio retransmitter is at the read at a time because they are in cars that are at least 8 feet apart. Each person's account can be read and updated easily. Can you imagine making each Metrocard a $50 radio retransmitter that only reads the one at the bus driver or in the turnstile. Besides, would you like a central computer to know which bus and train you take all the time? A better answer is putting an updating machine in subway stations. You input your credit/debit card or cash and the card is incremented by the amount you want. --------------------------------------------------------------------- "3) Universal usage on franchised and non-franchised private buses, vans and anything else that moves on wheels in NYC. " Response: If they are not franchised by the state/city, how could the driver/owner collect the money owed to it when it kept track of the use of it? Each use of a Metrocard does not actually deposit money in somebody's bank account. And if it did, there would have to be franchising or some business with the Metrocard distributor, i.e. the MTA. --------------------------------------------------------------------- "4) Usable on PATH and NJT commuter buses." Response: NYC and NJ would have to agree on that. Why not have a NJ version of the Metrocard? Then each state could control its own system. Merging them isn't a bad idea, but it's hard to get two states to agree, especially when the systems are not integrated. In DC where I live, a multi-state agency exists and there is one rail system for all three places (MD, VA, DC). But really they are great ideas whose time may come someday. Actually when our money switches to universal legal tender debit cards someday, that may happen.

Thread title: PLEASE REPOST REPLYS TO NYCTA RADIO MESSAGE (760057)
Started on Sat Dec 6 17:39:55 1997, by Adam

Subject: PLEASE REPOST REPLYS TO NYCTA RADIO MESSAGE
Message Number: 760057
Posted by: Adam
Date: Sat Dec 6 17:39:55 1997

Could whom ever was nice enough to reply to my post about the nycsubway radio system, please repost the message, I missed it

Thread title: Re: NYCT Surplus (or: 1st sighting of Vultures) (760058)
Started on Sat Dec 6 17:39:57 1997, by walters

Subject: Re: NYCT Surplus (or: 1st sighting of Vultures)
Message Number: 760058
Posted by: walters
Date: Sat Dec 6 17:39:57 1997

In Reply to: [6]NYCT Surplus (or: 1st sighting of Vultures) posted by Charles Fiori on December 01, 1997 at 13:11:08: it's woth the cost if it cuts down on crime
- Subject: Re: NYCT Surplus (or: 1st sighting of Vultures)
- Message Number: 760060
- Posted by: walters
- Date: Sat Dec 6 17:40:00 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]NYCT Surplus (or: 1st sighting of Vultures) posted by Charles Fiori on December 01, 1997 at 13:11:08: it's woth the cost if it cuts down on crime
  - Subject: Re: NYCT Surplus (or: 1st sighting of Vultures)
  - Message Number: 760118
  - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
  - Date: Sat Dec 6 17:42:06 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]NYCT Surplus (or: 1st sighting of Vultures) posted by Charles Fiori on December 01, 1997 at 13:11:08: Forgive me if I was disappointed in seeing this post. Given the title, I thought this was about an upcoming Transit Museum Auction and Tag Sale!! :) --Mark

Thread title: website (760059)
Started on Sat Dec 6 17:39:58 1997, by walter s/..

Subject: website
Message Number: 760059
Posted by: walter s/..
Date: Sat Dec 6 17:39:58 1997

saw it for the first time today... great page ....

Thread title: NYCTA RADIO system (760061)
Started on Sat Dec 6 17:40:05 1997, by Charles Fiori

Subject: NYCTA RADIO system
Message Number: 760061
Posted by: Charles Fiori
Date: Sat Dec 6 17:40:05 1997

In Reply to: [6]PLEASE REPOST REPLYS TO NYCTA RADIO MESSAGE posted by Adam on December 01, 1997 at 14:32:14: Try the archive retrieval or send an e-mail to David Pirmann if you don't know how. I haven't used it, but am told it works fine.
- Subject: Re: NYCTA RADIO system
- Message Number: 760199
- Posted by: charlie muller
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:07:09 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]NYCTA RADIO system posted by Charles Fiori on December 01, 1997 at 14:50:50: for those wanting the freq's for NYCTA RADIO SYSTEM, the new 1998 radio shack police call is out out in radio shack stores, i picked one up on tuesday dec 2, 1997 in the cross county shooping mall in westchester county. this book has the freq's numbers. charlie muller.
  - Subject: Re: NYCTA RADIO system
  - Message Number: 760222
  - Posted by: wsteil
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:08:00 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: NYCTA RADIO system posted by charlie muller on December 04, 1997 at 00:39:07: There is an excellent listing of NYC, LI, and countless other radio frequencies at: http://www.panix.com/clay/scanning/frequencies/new-york-city.shtml

Thread title: Re: MBTA Old Colony Line & Railbed question (760066)
Started on Sat Dec 6 17:40:22 1997, by Gary Jacobi

Subject: Re: MBTA Old Colony Line & Railbed question
Message Number: 760066
Posted by: Gary Jacobi
Date: Sat Dec 6 17:40:22 1997

In Reply to: [6]MBTA Old Colony Line & Railbed question posted by Timothy Speer on December 01, 1997 at 12:01:24: Until I hear otherwise, concrete ties are considered very durable, and should need no sealant, as salt is not used on the roadbed, and the ballast drains very well out the sides of it's cross section, which was a necessity to preserve the original wood ties.
- Subject: Re: MBTA Old Colony Line & Railbed question
- Message Number: 760067
- Posted by: Jr
- Date: Sat Dec 6 17:40:25 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Re: MBTA Old Colony Line & Railbed question posted by Gary Jacobi on December 01, 1997 at 16:47:23: Wooded ties need to be replaced every 25 years. Concrete ties needs only to be replaced only every 75 year. If they really last that long only time will tell. Concrete ties only been used in this counrty since 1975.
  - Subject: Re: MBTA Old Colony Line & Railbed question
  - Message Number: 760143
  - Posted by: Andrew Byler
  - Date: Sat Dec 6 17:43:00 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: MBTA Old Colony Line & Railbed question posted by Jr on December 01, 1997 at 16:57:33: The concrete ties used are pre-stressed concrete ties. You can see the pre stressing strands if you dig the end of a tie out of the ballast. As Jr. mentions, they are supposed to last 75 years - this is the standard answer given by the prestressing people. They're record is not that good. Amtrak had major problems with the first huge batch of prestressed ties installed, and there was a very big lawsuit about this. Now the NEC has lots of new prestressed ties with supposedly none of the problems of the old ones. We'll see ... As I said above, 75 years is the standard guestimate of the prestressed tie manufacturers. There is no scientific proof of this until we get prestressed structures which are 75 years old. My understanding is that the railroads, conservative organizations that they are, estimate concrete tie life at 50 years. BTW, the assumption of their life psan is based on the prestressing eventually wearing out, necessitating their replacement. Andy Byler

Thread title: Extension of the #7 Train-Subway Legend (760071)
Started on Sat Dec 6 17:40:33 1997, by Charles Fiori

Subject: Extension of the #7 Train-Subway Legend
Message Number: 760071
Posted by: Charles Fiori
Date: Sat Dec 6 17:40:33 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Extension of the #7 Train posted by Gary Jacobi on December 01, 1997 at 17:03:20: Gary, that is a new one. Where did you see that mentioned? I guess that the rivalry between the competing companies would allow for such piggishness, but what did the Independent System have that could compete, anyway? I know chasing something like this down is difficult...
- Subject: Re: Extension of the #7 Train-Subway Legend
- Message Number: 760082
- Posted by: Gary Jacobi
- Date: Sat Dec 6 17:40:57 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Extension of the #7 Train-Subway Legend posted by Charles Fiori on December 01, 1997 at 17:17:40: Brennan mentions the fact that it blocks the #7, but I'm not sure if I read that it was deliberate, or heard it suggested by someone. That's why I called it a legend !

Thread title: nyc 2nd Ave subway (760072)
Started on Sat Dec 6 17:40:36 1997, by Serafin

Subject: nyc 2nd Ave subway
Message Number: 760072
Posted by: Serafin
Date: Sat Dec 6 17:40:36 1997

Back in the 70's the mta started to build a new subway. It was to go from the top of the Bronx to the Wall street area. Almost as soon as they started the project they stoped. After they close the project As a Kid in the 70's I use to walk in this closed subway from 126st to 97st. Is there anyone that knows if there going to every restart this subway project? I also herd they built a small part of the 2nd ave subway somewhere downtown. I'll like to know so I can go a explore it.
- Subject: Re: nyc 2nd Ave subway
- Message Number: 760075
- Posted by: Daniel A. Valles
- Date: Sat Dec 6 17:40:43 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]nyc 2nd Ave subway posted by Serafin on December 01, 1997 at 17:37:34: Look up in the archives... Not too long ago, somebody put up a long message for everybody to see dealing with this topic... Personally, I don't think this line will ever come to a reality, but it is sorely needed due to the severe overcrowding of the Lexington Ave. line... As for the already built section, I believe it might be off limits...
  - Subject: Re: nyc 2nd Ave subway
  - Message Number: 760077
  - Posted by: Adam
  - Date: Sat Dec 6 17:40:48 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]nyc 2nd Ave subway posted by Serafin on December 01, 1997 at 17:37:34: A few months ago, I took a tour with the Transit Museum where we visited stations that had been built but never used. One of the stations we visited was part of the 2nd Ave. Subway. It was accessable through a door in a station of the B and Q train, I think that it was around 57th Street but I forgot so I'm not that sure. It was a very large station, with an extensive mezzanie level.
    - Subject: Re: nyc 2nd Ave subway
    - Message Number: 760081
    - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
    - Date: Sat Dec 6 17:40:55 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]nyc 2nd Ave subway posted by Serafin on December 01, 1997 at 17:37:34: Some of us are STILL kids at heart, and will want to know how and where you used to gain access to the uptown tunnel!
      - Subject: Re: nyc 2nd Ave subway
      - Message Number: 760114
      - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
      - Date: Sat Dec 6 17:42:00 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: nyc 2nd Ave subway posted by Adam on December 01, 1997 at 18:26:40: You're thinking of the planned cross-platform transfer that was intended for the Lexington Ave - 63rd St station (B/Q). The side platform is actually an island platform with fake side walls. The outside tracks behind the fake wall were intended to connect to 2nd Ave subway service. Grand Street (B, D, Q) is also similar. The side walls are "temporary" - I believe there is also a trackbed (or the provisions for one) behind that wall as well. This station was also supposed to serve as a cross-platform transfer to the 2nd Ave line. --Mark --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: nyc 2nd Ave subway
        Message Number: 760115
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Sat Dec 6 17:42:02 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]nyc 2nd Ave subway posted by Serafin on December 01, 1997 at 17:37:34: OK, OK, so how'd you get in?? (Please do not broadcast anything illegal, of course!) Lots of 2nd Ave subway information can be found right on this site at the [8]Second Ave Subway Page. Included is a recent posting (very well documented) by someone who summarized a NY Times article from 9/29 describing the proposed IND Second System, and what the 2nd Ave subway was supposed to become. --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: nyc 2nd Ave subway
        Message Number: 760133
        Posted by: Jr
        Date: Sat Dec 6 17:42:36 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: nyc 2nd Ave subway posted by Gary Jacobi on December 01, 1997 at 19:25:34: The way I use to get into the 2nd ave subway was by pulling up the vent gate the is on the sidewalk. The one I use to gain access was at the north west side of 112st and 2nd ave and also at 99st across the street of the hospital.
        
        Subject: Re: nyc 2nd Ave subway
        Message Number: 760134
        Posted by: Serafin (JR)
        Date: Sat Dec 6 17:42:38 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: nyc 2nd Ave subway posted by Adam on December 01, 1997 at 18:26:40: Mark S feinman is right. If the take the b or q to Lex ave you'll see a red wall. That is a fake wall. You will see a number of doors along this wall. Most of the time the worker will leave one or two doors unlocked. If you use a door please remember what door you used or the TA police will be glad to help you as in my case but that another story. They use the track in this unused station to layup trains.(I guess from 57 st.). If you look down the far east of the station the tunnel make a turn north in a down grade. I once walk this. It end about 200 feet from the station. Please don't walk on the track because the rails is live. Note from the east end of the station there are stair about 10 feet in the tunnel the goes to the lower level that is unused also. This was to be use by the LIRR. but you never herd that from me. No lights in lower level. The way I use to get into the 2nd ave subway was by pulling up the vent gate on the sidewalk. The one I use to gain access was at the north west side of 112st and 2nd ave and also at 99st across the street of the hospital. it's has been 15 to 20 year sinces I walked that subway. Now the Mta has sealed up most of the vents and installed alarm system. if you go bring a rope and light. At the time there use to be lights and it was warm and dry. No rat but wear boots.
        
        Subject: Re: nyc 2nd Ave subway
        Message Number: 760135
        Posted by: Serafin (jr)
        Date: Sat Dec 6 17:42:40 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: nyc 2nd Ave subway posted by Daniel A. Valles on December 01, 1997 at 18:13:23: The way I use to get into the 2nd ave subway was by pulling up the vent gate on the sidewalk. The one I use to gain access was at the north west side of 112st and 2nd ave and also at 99st across the street of the hospital.
        
        Subject: Re: nyc 2nd Ave subway
        Message Number: 760159
        Posted by: Lou from Brooklyn
        Date: Sat Dec 6 17:43:39 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: nyc 2nd Ave subway posted by Serafin (JR) on December 02, 1997 at 20:41:27: >>They use the track in this unused station to layup trains.(I guess from 57 st.)I think your right. I believe there is a 3rd route indicator button at 47/50 Rock that says 57th Layup on it. I'll look for it on the way in to work tommorrow.
        
        Subject: Re: nyc 2nd Ave subway
        Message Number: 760173
        Posted by: Daniel
        Date: Sat Dec 6 17:44:06 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: nyc 2nd Ave subway posted by Mark S Feinman on December 02, 1997 at 13:57:05: To my knowledge, there is no trackbed behind the walls... However, I believe that putting the trackbeds would not require much work at this station...
        
        Subject: Re: nyc 2nd Ave subway
        Message Number: 760174
        Posted by: Daniel
        Date: Sat Dec 6 17:44:08 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: nyc 2nd Ave subway posted by Mark S Feinman on December 02, 1997 at 13:57:05: To my knowledge, there is no trackbed behind the walls... However, I believe that putting the trackbeds would not require much work at this station...
        
        Subject: Re: nyc 2nd Ave subway
        Message Number: 760175
        Posted by: Daniel
        Date: Sat Dec 6 17:44:11 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: nyc 2nd Ave subway posted by Serafin (jr) on December 02, 1997 at 20:43:42: And you didn't get caught?! BRAVEMAN!!!!
        
        Subject: Re: nyc 2nd Ave subway
        Message Number: 760192
        Posted by: Mike K
        Date: Sat Dec 6 17:44:45 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: nyc 2nd Ave subway posted by Lou from Brooklyn on December 03, 1997 at 08:48:02: There is a button like Lou is talking about, but I don't think it's at Rock Ctr. I believe it's at 57th Street.
        
        Subject: Re: nyc 2nd Ave subway
        Message Number: 760203
        Posted by: sdc_foti
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:07:18 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: nyc 2nd Ave subway posted by Serafin (JR) on December 02, 1997 at 20:41:27: Or you can walk into either the upper or lower tunnels heading into Manhattan on the catwalk if "All" doors are locked. Be careful though tight squeeze if a train is laid up in there. Sherman
        
        Subject: Re: nyc 2nd Ave subway
        Message Number: 760204
        Posted by: sdc_foti
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:07:21 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: nyc 2nd Ave subway posted by Serafin (JR) on December 02, 1997 at 20:41:27: Or you can walk into either the upper or lower tunnels heading into Manhattan on the catwalk if "All" doors are locked. Be careful though tight squeeze if a train is laid up in there. Sherman
        
        Subject: Re: nyc 2nd Ave subway
        Message Number: 760258
        Posted by: Serafin Jr
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:09:45 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: nyc 2nd Ave subway posted by sdc_foti on December 04, 1997 at 09:55:27: Or you can walk into either the upper or lower tunnels heading into Manhattan on the catwalk if "All" doors are locked. Be careful though tight squeeze if a train is laid up in there. It looks like you squeeze there one time or other. If anyone has any intersting story on walking the rails (Finding lost subway tunnel) please post on what and how you got there. I know there many storys out there

Thread title: Re: MBTA "Flat Wheels" (760080)
Started on Sat Dec 6 17:40:54 1997, by Philip Nasadowski

Subject: Re: MBTA "Flat Wheels"
Message Number: 760080
Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
Date: Sat Dec 6 17:40:54 1997

In Reply to: [7]MBTA "Flat Wheels" posted by Mark S Feinman on December 01, 1997 at 12:55:14: I highly doubt it's "normal", I'd put my money on it just being a string of thumpers. Of course thumpers are really just pretty annoying. Some cars thump more than others. Slamtrak's stuff seems to be the worst of them all. Someone told me it's because they sometimes drag cars around the yard with the parking brakes on, I don't know. I'm not MBTA based, but I can't think of any "normal" thing on the trucks that would do that...
- Subject: Re: MBTA "Flat Wheels"
- Message Number: 760084
- Posted by: Joe M
- Date: Sat Dec 6 17:41:01 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: MBTA "Flat Wheels" posted by Philip Nasadowski on December 01, 1997 at 19:03:43: Wheel grinding may help

Thread title: commuter rail in NY other than MNRR (760086)
Started on Sat Dec 6 17:41:04 1997, by Lefty

Subject: commuter rail in NY other than MNRR
Message Number: 760086
Posted by: Lefty
Date: Sat Dec 6 17:41:04 1997

is there any commuter rail system anywhere in NY besides MNRR? where does it run? what equip does it use?
- Subject: Re: commuter rail in NY other than MNRR
- Message Number: 760087
- Posted by: Peter Rosa
- Date: Sat Dec 6 17:41:06 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]commuter rail in NY other than MNRR posted by Lefty on December 01, 1997 at 20:46:36: Well, the Long Island Railroad is the nation's largest commuter railroad, and (unlike Metro-North) operates entirely within NY State. New Jersey Transit trains run into Penn Station in Manhattan.
  - Subject: Re: commuter rail in NY other than MNRR
  - Message Number: 760089
  - Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
  - Date: Sat Dec 6 17:41:13 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: commuter rail in NY other than MNRR posted by Peter Rosa on December 01, 1997 at 20:51:40: Yeah, there's the LIRR. Featuring both rusty diesels and sexy looking electrics (seriously, the M-1 design grows on you). The rusty ones (Rustliners(tm)?) are pulled by glorified switchers (MP-15AC), or by GP-30somthings. Contray to popular opinion, the LIRR is NOT a mecca for Alco cab units. those were depowered long ago, and were fitted with generators for hep. Maybe they're Honda generators, they sure sound like them. I seem to recall a B unit floating around the system too... BTW, many of the rustliners (it's bound to catch on...) were MP-70's or 73's in a past life. Look for "Danger 600 Volts" stickers in odd places. There's not much to say about them other than they suck, but when the A/C works, its better than the electrics. The electrics are M-1s and M-3s. They feature the same single handle control as MN's equipment, and they often feature a nasty engineer driving the train. And the world's most annyoing HVAC system. Loud, whinning, and it doesn't cool. And unlike Metro North, the LIRR has sealed windows, so by the time the train hits Jamacia, it's a pressure cooker. The long promised new diesels are going to be double decker. The current Port Jeff test train is pulled by two rebuilt FL9's. The new locomotives are GM, I've seen pics of them, I think they are uglier than the Gennisisisis that Metro North uses. Oh yeah, NJT's yard is on the island (!). Mostly AEM-7s and Comet, Arrow, and other MUs/cars. There are no NJT stops on the Island thank god... Oh yeah, doesn't NJT own some of the upstate trackage??
    - Subject: Re: commuter rail in NY other than MNRR
    - Message Number: 760113
    - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
    - Date: Sat Dec 6 17:41:58 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]commuter rail in NY other than MNRR posted by Lefty on December 01, 1997 at 20:46:36: Other than LIRR & Syracuse mentioned below (Syracuse started with RDCs IIRC), Buffalo, NY has a short (3 miles I think) light rail line, part of which runs as subway for about 3 stops. The original plans were to extend it significantly but it never happened. The system uses 85 foot Kinki-Sharyo LRV cars that are NOT articulated. I think the system opened in the late '70s and is still using the same equipment, although I'm sure the cars have gone through an overhaul program by now. --Mark
      - Subject: Re: commuter rail in NY other than MNRR
      - Message Number: 760123
      - Posted by: Bootsy
      - Date: Sat Dec 6 17:42:14 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: commuter rail in NY other than MNRR posted by Philip Nasadowski on December 01, 1997 at 21:28:09: You mean the windows on MNRR trains open?? I never noticed this before! Their electric trains look almost exactly like the LIRR trains.
        
        Subject: Re: commuter rail in NY other than MNRR
        Message Number: 760205
        Posted by: Dave
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:07:24 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: commuter rail in NY other than MNRR posted by Mark S Feinman on December 02, 1997 at 13:50:12: > Why in the world run a LR line for only 3 miles? I understand this was supposed to be part of a much larger system but how can this thing break even, let alone make money, on only 3 miles?
        
        Subject: Re: commuter rail in NY other than MNRR
        Message Number: 760211
        Posted by: Wayne Johnson
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:07:38 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: commuter rail in NY other than MNRR posted by Bootsy on December 02, 1997 at 16:05:35: Yes, they do open. I'm not sure if the M-2/4 have them, but the others have windows that open by tilting in like NYCTA cars. It's easy to miss because the section that tilts in is pretty small (about 5 inches in height). Other than that and the paint differences they are identical in appearance.

Thread title: Re: commuter rail in NY other than MNRR(oops) (760090)
Started on Sat Dec 6 17:41:16 1997, by Lefty

Subject: Re: commuter rail in NY other than MNRR(oops)
Message Number: 760090
Posted by: Lefty
Date: Sat Dec 6 17:41:16 1997

In Reply to: [7]Re: commuter rail in NY other than MNRR posted by Philip Nasadowski on December 01, 1997 at 21:28:09: oops, i completely didnt think of LIRR.. it just seems like its part of MNRR.. and seems like its not there to me.. i never go to LI.. i think NJT does own the tracks on the port jervis line of MNRR? i saw an NJT locomotive pulling MNRR cars up there. im surprised theres no commuter rail in albany? buffalo? rochester? those are all relatively big cities i think.
- Subject: Re: commuter rail in NY other than MNRR(oops)
- Message Number: 760093
- Posted by: ~airplane
- Date: Sat Dec 6 17:41:23 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Re: commuter rail in NY other than MNRR(oops) posted by Lefty on December 01, 1997 at 21:36:14: NJT does not own the Port Jervis Line tracks. Metro-North service on the Port Jervis Line and Pascack Valley Line is operated by New Jersey Transit, under contract with MNR. West-of-Hudson MNR equipment is part of the NJT pool, but with the new service contract, Metro-North equipment can only be used on the two MNR lines, not on NJT's other lines. The Port Jervis Line is actually owned by Conrail, and will be transferred to Norfolk Southern after the big breakup. Metro-North is trying to throw a clause into the agreement between NS and CSX that will give MNR the option to buy the line at a later date. As for other big cities, Syracuse has a commuter rail system of some sort, although it's not very expansive.

Thread title: Re: unproffesional LIRR and MNRR engineers (760091)
Started on Sat Dec 6 17:41:18 1997, by Lefty

Subject: Re: unproffesional LIRR and MNRR engineers
Message Number: 760091
Posted by: Lefty
Date: Sat Dec 6 17:41:18 1997

In Reply to: [7]Re: LIRR posted by Bootsy on December 01, 1997 at 20:41:54: i was once forced to ride on the fron tcar of an MNRR local to croton harmon because i had my bike with me. first thing i noticed was the cabs door was open the whole time. when the engineer went up to start the ride, i wondered, whats that regular normal type guy doing in hte cab? but then he came to the front door of the train where a couple of conductors were standing and they started making conversation and cursing loudly and aLOT and smoking... seemed like something wasnt right.. you say that is all against their contracts?

Thread title: Chicago Transit Planning (760094)
Started on Sat Dec 6 17:41:25 1997, by GAR

Subject: Chicago Transit Planning
Message Number: 760094
Posted by: GAR
Date: Sat Dec 6 17:41:25 1997

Does anyone have any insight into plans for Chicago subway expansion say from the end of WW II to the early 70's? I know removal of the L around the loop was always a goal but (thankfully) never happened. I find it strange that the Blue and Red subway lines in the loop are only a block apart both running N-S instead of either sharing RoW or being further spread out.Was there a master plan? Also were there ever any plans to service the rail stations? Any info would be appreciated and I will check the Library and post any thing of interest .
- Subject: Re: Chicago Transit Planning
- Message Number: 760095
- Posted by: Joe M
- Date: Sat Dec 6 17:41:26 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Chicago Transit Planning posted by GAR on December 01, 1997 at 23:27:03: Find a copy of CTA at 45 by Krambles and Peterson. It's a good overview of the CTA and has good references to find detailed information. If its not in the library I think Central Eletric Railfans Assn. (CERA) sells it as a fundraiser for their Scholarship fund.
  - Subject: Re: Chicago Transit Planning
  - Message Number: 760128
  - Posted by: Bryan Layne
  - Date: Sat Dec 6 17:42:25 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Chicago Transit Planning posted by Joe M on December 01, 1997 at 23:33:30: check out [7]this page
    - Subject: Re: Chicago Transit Planning
    - Message Number: 760142
    - Posted by: Andrew Byler
    - Date: Sat Dec 6 17:42:57 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Chicago Transit Planning posted by GAR on December 01, 1997 at 23:27:03: Just like New York has its unbuilt second system, Chicago has its unbuilt dreams of raip transit greatness. The July - September 1985 issues of Passenger Train Journal have a good overview of the system, as well as some of the as of yet unachieved plans for expansion. Herewith, a summary: The Midway line would be extended in two directions, westwards along 63rd St. to Summit at Archer Ave. (originally, the Midway line was to have been an Archer Ave. subway), and southwards along Cicero Ave. to Ford City. A belt line would extend further along Cicero to the North and the Belt Railway row to the east and south. This would turn off the Belt Railway at the old Pennsy Panhandle line, and follow this to 99th St. There it would curve over to I-57 and meet the Dan Ryan line, which would be extended to a new terminus at 103rd St. Northwards, it would follow Cicero Ave. Lawrence Ave. north of the O'Hare/Kennedy line. Then it would continue on the ex-Northwestern row to the Skokie line where it would run to Howard. The Douglas line would be extended out Cermak Rd. to I-88 where it would venture to Oakbrokk shopping center. The Congress line would join it by following the old Roaring Elgin row out through Bellwwod and Maywood along side the B&OCT tracks and then cutting down the old never finished bypass through West Chester. Another long talked of extention would lengthen the Skokie Swift by running it all the way north along the North Shore row to Old Orchard shopping center at Old Orchard Rd., or possibly even all the way to Northbrook Court at County Line Rd. Yet another extension more recently in the talking would extend the O'Hare line out I-90 to Schaumburg. Thats all the pipe dreaming I've heard of from out there ... Andy Byler
      - Subject: Re: Chicago Transit Planning
      - Message Number: 760183
      - Posted by: G.A.R.
      - Date: Sat Dec 6 17:44:28 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Chicago Transit Planning posted by Andrew Byler on December 02, 1997 at 23:28:49: A couple of thing come to mind: 1. Why do all of the proposed suburban extensions end at shopping centers....How about something more practical, like a park and ride lot. 2.Since the only extensions built in recent years have been the airport lines, maybe they should build that 3rd airport at Peotone....anyhow thanks for the info.
        
        Subject: Re: Chicago Transit Planning
        Message Number: 760184
        Posted by: G.A.R.
        Date: Sat Dec 6 17:44:30 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Chicago Transit Planning posted by Andrew Byler on December 02, 1997 at 23:28:49: A couple of thing come to mind: 1. Why do all of the proposed suburban extensions end at shopping centers....How about something more practical, like a park and ride lot. 2.Since the only extensions built in recent years have been the airport lines, maybe they should build that 3rd airport at Peotone.... thanks for the info.
        
        Subject: Re: Chicago Transit Planning
        Message Number: 760194
        Posted by: Andrew Byler
        Date: Sat Dec 6 17:44:49 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Chicago Transit Planning posted by G.A.R. on December 03, 1997 at 20:16:05: Its not entirely correct to say that these places are mere shopping centers. They are major points of employment, with large concentrations of office parks, industrial parks, etc. If you are ever out in Chicago, take a ride out I-90 beyond O'Hare and then turn down I-290 to Schaumburg and you will se what I mean. There are hundreds of thousands of jobs out here. To give you another example, in my area, Philadelphia, there are now nearly as many jobs out by King of Prussia Mall (1.8 million square feet of retail space - the world's record!) in various office and industrial parks as in Center City Philadelphia (about 275,000). There are several very fortunately placed rail lines which string together these pearls of employment along the city's northern suburbs (connecting to Plymouth Meeting/Blue Bell, Fort Washington, Langhorne, Oxford Valley, etc.) which are eventually to be turned into a new commuter rail line, when SEPTA finally gets its act together in terms of planning. The suburbs are where it is happening in most metropolitan areas. Andy
        
        Subject: Re: Chicago Transit Planning
        Message Number: 760278
        Posted by: Alan Follett
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:11:23 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Chicago Transit Planning posted by Andrew Byler on December 02, 1997 at 23:28:49: The Ford City extension of the Orange (Midway) line may not be entirely a pipe dream. I was surprised to note on a visit to Chicago in August that the roll signs on the 3200-series cars include a Ford City destination. Apparently someone at CTA thinks that this one has some chance of being built. Anyone care to spin off a thread on unbuilt routes appearing on roll signs? Off hand, I can't think of any other Chicago examples; in San Francisco, I believe the new Breda cars have a "Mission Bay" destination (I'm not sure of the exact description) on the roller; but of course since this line is in an advanced stage of construction, with revenue service to begin in January 1998, it's not as much an exercise in optimism as CTA's Ford City sign.

Thread title: R-110 signs above station platforms (760096)
Started on Sat Dec 6 17:41:28 1997, by Jeffrey from Brooklyn

Subject: R-110 signs above station platforms
Message Number: 760096
Posted by: Jeffrey from Brooklyn
Date: Sat Dec 6 17:41:28 1997

Does anybody know what those blue and white R-110 R-110 signs indicate, that are hanging above many of the station platforms? Does it have anything to do with the New Tech trains?
- Subject: R-110 signs above station platforms
- Message Number: 760097
- Posted by: Jeffrey from Brooklyn
- Date: Sat Dec 6 17:41:30 1997
  
  Does anybody know what those blue and white R-110 R-110 signs indicate, that are hanging above many of the station platforms? Does it have anything to do with the New Tech trains?
  - Subject: Re: R-110 signs above station platforms
  - Message Number: 760098
  - Posted by: subway-buff
  - Date: Sat Dec 6 17:41:32 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]R-110 signs above station platforms posted by Jeffrey from Brooklyn on December 02, 1997 at 01:08:06: the signs show the conductor location for the R119 (R142/143) trains which are 67 foot cars.
    - Subject: Re: R-110 signs above station platforms
    - Message Number: 760112
    - Posted by: Nick
    - Date: Sat Dec 6 17:41:57 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]R-110 signs above station platforms posted by Jeffrey from Brooklyn on December 02, 1997 at 01:07:38: I'm not exactly sure, but here is my guess: The R110-B is only a 3-car train (there are 3 sets of trains), instead of a 6-8 car train like you normally see. Therefore, the train stops in the middle of the platform...so the sign tells the conductor where to stop. Of course if your a regular rider of the A-train, you could probably figure this out after awhile.-NICK
      - Subject: Re: R-110 signs above station platforms
      - Message Number: 760152
      - Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
      - Date: Sat Dec 6 17:43:24 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]R-110 signs above station platforms posted by Jeffrey from Brooklyn on December 02, 1997 at 01:07:38: Those signs are the conductor boards for the R110B...Since the cars are of a different length, the condutors position is different. There are also conductor bourds (with black/white striping, as opposed to solid blue), that indicate the conductors position to open the doors on the train. Most stations have one board, other stations, like those with one stairway or exit theat is always open, have several, and they are marked with a number indicating the length of a train that can safely open its doors at that location. As long as the conductor can look straight up and ahead and see the board, it is safe to pen the doors. -Hank

Thread title: Re: R-110 signs above station platforms-correction (760099)
Started on Sat Dec 6 17:41:33 1997, by subway-buff

Subject: Re: R-110 signs above station platforms-correction
Message Number: 760099
Posted by: subway-buff
Date: Sat Dec 6 17:41:33 1997

In Reply to: [7]R-110 signs above station platforms posted by Jeffrey from Brooklyn on December 02, 1997 at 01:08:06: the signs show the conductor location for the R110 (R142/143) trains which are 67 foot cars.

Thread title: Re: minutes of subway derby meeting on 11/29/12997 Letter to TA-Question for (760100)
Started on Sat Dec 6 17:41:35 1997, by .

Subject: Re: minutes of subway derby meeting on 11/29/12997 Letter to TA-Question for
Message Number: 760100
Posted by: .
Date: Sat Dec 6 17:41:35 1997

Thread title: Interstate rapid transit systems (760101)
Started on Sat Dec 6 17:41:37 1997, by David Pirmann

Subject: Interstate rapid transit systems
Message Number: 760101
Posted by: David Pirmann
Date: Sat Dec 6 17:41:37 1997

I was thinking the other day that there aren't many interstate rapid transit systems in the U.S., and that of the ones I could think of, New Jersey has two: PATH and PATCO. Washington, DC Metro was the other I could think of. Are there any others? (Note, I'm not asking about "commuter rail"-style systems.)
- Subject: Re: Interstate rapid transit systems
- Message Number: 760102
- Posted by: Dave
- Date: Sat Dec 6 17:41:39 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Interstate rapid transit systems posted by David Pirmann on December 02, 1997 at 08:34:55: Metrolink - the St. Louis, MO light rail system - runs from Lambert Field (St. Louis airport) to downtown and from there to East St. Louis, Illinois. An extension of the eastern leg is in the planning stages (construction to start soon), a dozen or so miles further east to the new Mid-America airport. I believe this will give Metrolink the distinction of being the only rail (heavy or light) system that operates between two airports without need of a connecting shuttlebus from the train to the plane.
  - Subject: Re: Interstate rapid transit systems
  - Message Number: 760105
  - Posted by: Charles Fiori
  - Date: Sat Dec 6 17:41:44 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Interstate rapid transit systems posted by David Pirmann on December 02, 1997 at 08:34:55: David, welcome back. Did you head off to the same "undisclosed location" as Rudy Giuliani?? The San Diego Trolley runs right up to the International Border at San Ysidro. Also, WMATA runs through 2 states and one territory, making 3 political entities all of which have electoral votes. Also, isn't there a subway in Istanbul? If so, it could be the only one to operate on 2 continents... (All of the above are from the "More than you thought you needed to know" Department") :-)
    - Subject: Re: Interstate rapid transit systems
    - Message Number: 760106
    - Posted by: Sergiy Pakhomov
    - Date: Sat Dec 6 17:41:45 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: Interstate rapid transit systems posted by Charles Fiori on December 02, 1997 at 10:44:03: An answer to Charles Fiori (posted on December 02, 1997). In Istambul there have never been a subway line connecting two continents. It does not matter if it is the modern line (opened about 1990) or something called sometimes a subway and sometimes a funiculair (incline raylway). They are both in European part. No rails cross the Bosphorus, ever heavy rail.
      - Subject: Re: Interstate rapid transit systems
      - Message Number: 760139
      - Posted by: Joe-M
      - Date: Sat Dec 6 17:42:51 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Interstate rapid transit systems posted by David Pirmann on December 02, 1997 at 08:34:55: Bi-State in St. Louis serves MO and IL. More rappid transit than light rail but a bit of both
        
        Subject: Re: Interstate rapid transit systems
        Message Number: 760150
        Posted by: david vartanoff
        Date: Sat Dec 6 17:43:16 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Interstate rapid transit systems posted by Dave on December 02, 1997 at 09:00:19: CTA connrcts O'Hare to Midway via two routes but one fare--change trains at Clark-Lake
        
        Subject: Re: Interstate rapid transit systems
        Message Number: 760163
        Posted by: Dave
        Date: Sat Dec 6 17:43:47 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Interstate rapid transit systems posted by david vartanoff on December 03, 1997 at 04:00:14: You're correct - I was thinking in terms of one fare without changing trains.

Thread title: Wilmington, Delaware (760103)
Started on Sat Dec 6 17:41:40 1997, by Timothy

Subject: Wilmington, Delaware
Message Number: 760103
Posted by: Timothy
Date: Sat Dec 6 17:41:40 1997

Can anyone tell me why Wilmington, Delaware has no rail transit system? I've heard that Wilmington had several streetcar lines many years ago. Although not nearly as big as its neighbor to the north, Philadelphia, I believe Wilmington is large enough to accomodate 1 or 2 light rail, and/or subway lines, because besides the downtown area, Wilmington has many neighborhoods that nearly extend to the Pennsylvania/Delaware state line, and I believe that a rapid transit system would be very convenient for people living in those areas. One area that could use a subway, or light rail line is the Route 202 corridor, that runs between West Chester, Pennsylvania, and Wilmington, Delaware, past the Concord Mall. I know that I posted a similar message earlier this year, concerning rail transit in Wilmington, but I'm just wondering if Wilmington will ever see a subway, or light rail system, or if it ever has been in the planning stages. Thanks.
- Subject: Re: Wilmington, Delaware
- Message Number: 760129
- Posted by: Dan Lawrence
- Date: Sat Dec 6 17:42:28 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Wilmington, Delaware posted by Timothy on December 02, 1997 at 09:31:51: Wilmington converted its streetcar lines to trolley coach before WWII. When Delaware Power was getting out of the transit business in the late 1950's, the system was dieselized. The TC's sat for a year or so and then were sold to Johnstown Traction who were in the process of converting the system from streetcars to TC's in the 1958-59 era. Johnstown in the middle 50's was a one-day diversion from the Pittsburgh system - (which then used to take a full week to fully cover) a streetcar fan's heaven.
  - Subject: Re: Wilmington, Delaware
  - Message Number: 760185
  - Posted by: Bobw
  - Date: Sat Dec 6 17:44:31 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Wilmington, Delaware posted by Timothy on December 02, 1997 at 09:31:51: If you look at Wilmington's population (city, less than 100K, metro area probably around twice that) and geography, you see that the population density is quite low for a Northeastern metro area and the area is not very transit oriented. DART is a good bus system but doesn't have a high level of usage. It would be difficult to pin down one particular corridor and throw rail into it to solve any "problems". Perhaps the major commuter corridor that could support rail is Wilmington-Newark, but the right of way, other than Amtrak's, is not readily available. Wilmington-West Chester is busy but has the same problems, and it barely supports the SEPTA bus service provided there (and Delaware is ready to throw in its subsidy of this line). It would be nice to do something but it's probably, realistically, not going to happen in today's funding climate. However, Wilmington is allegedly looking to study a downtown circulator (possibly heritage) line using part of Market Street that is now a pedestrian mall. So, maybe there is hope that trolleys or rail transit will appear in Wilmington once again. Of course, there is always the old P & W car built into a restaurant down on French Street...

Thread title: Re: ATC SIR 509-A (760108)
Started on Sat Dec 6 17:41:49 1997, by Lou

Subject: Re: ATC SIR 509-A
Message Number: 760108
Posted by: Lou
Date: Sat Dec 6 17:41:49 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: ATC SIR posted by Hank Eisenstein on December 01, 1997 at 10:15:30: I've seen 509A defined as Stop and Proceded at reduced speed in order to stop in half the sight distance of any obstruction and I believe you had to sound the horn as part of the stop. I saw it in a book somewhere, gonna look for it...

Thread title: Record Attempt RULES Question (760109)
Started on Sat Dec 6 17:41:51 1997, by Lou from Brooklyn

Subject: Record Attempt RULES Question
Message Number: 760109
Posted by: Lou from Brooklyn
Date: Sat Dec 6 17:41:51 1997

Okay here's one for you guys attempting to beat the all station 24hr record. If a local train is rerouted from local service to express (Local D to Express at Prospect Park) do you have to "reride" to qualify for the local station missed?? Will a rerouted train on another line count?? For example the E/F tunnel in Queens is blocked and the F is rerouted to the G line, all G local stops are made from Queens Plaza to Smith&9th Street, shouldn't this qualify these stations??
- Subject: Re: Record Attempt RULES Question
- Message Number: 760111
- Posted by: Wayne Johnson
- Date: Sat Dec 6 17:41:55 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Record Attempt RULES Question posted by Lou from Brooklyn on December 02, 1997 at 11:53:58: That's a good question. My understanding was that we just have to stop at each stop on the system, and not necessarily ride every line. Other than rerouted trains it seems that we'll have to ride ride every line to accomplish this - except the C line because each of it's stops are also served the A and D trains. The Q line stops can also be covered without actually riding the Q train.
  - Subject: Re: Record Attempt RULES Question
  - Message Number: 760116
  - Posted by: Bob A
  - Date: Sat Dec 6 17:42:03 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Record Attempt RULES Question posted by Wayne Johnson on December 02, 1997 at 12:24:55: I always thought that you only had to go through every station, not necessarily stop at every station!

Thread title: Syracuse rail (was Re: commuter rail in NY other than MNRR (oops)) (760110)
Started on Sat Dec 6 17:41:53 1997, by Peter Rosa

Subject: Syracuse rail (was Re: commuter rail in NY other than MNRR (oops))
Message Number: 760110
Posted by: Peter Rosa
Date: Sat Dec 6 17:41:53 1997

In Reply to: [7]Re: commuter rail in NY other than MNRR(oops) posted by ~airplane on December 01, 1997 at 23:26:46: There was a discussion of the Syracuse rail system on nyc.transit not long ago. Service operates Wendesdays through Sundays only, which obviously makes it impractical for commuters. It seems to be aimed at Syracuse University students, and also is a popular source of entertainment. All in all, it's really stretching definitions to call the Syracuse system "commuter rail."
- Subject: Re: Syracuse rail (was Re: commuter rail in NY other than MNRR (oops))
- Message Number: 760120
- Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
- Date: Sat Dec 6 17:42:09 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Syracuse rail (was Re: commuter rail in NY other than MNRR (oops)) posted by Peter Rosa on December 02, 1997 at 12:23:58: It's "commuter rail", I guess, in that it is a set of main-line trains and tracks that only serves a local area. It doesn't serve commuters, but it has the train, track, and management style of commuter lines.

Thread title: LIRR Hunterspoint (760119)
Started on Sat Dec 6 17:42:08 1997, by Ted Shaine

Subject: LIRR Hunterspoint
Message Number: 760119
Posted by: Ted Shaine
Date: Sat Dec 6 17:42:08 1997

It's my understanding that the LIRR used to run to a terminal in Queens before the tunnels under the East River were built. Ferry connections were provided from this location, which I beleive was at Long Island City. Is this the current LIRR stop known as Hunterspoint Ave, or Long Island City? Is there evidence of the once larger terminal at either location? Is LIRR still planning on ending service on the LIC branch?
- Subject: Re: LIRR Hunterspoint
- Message Number: 760122
- Posted by: Bootsy
- Date: Sat Dec 6 17:42:12 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]LIRR Hunterspoint posted by Ted Shaine on December 02, 1997 at 14:33:52: Hunterspoint Avenue and Long Island City are two seperate stations. LIC is the terminus.
  - Subject: Re: LIRR Hunterspoint
  - Message Number: 760125
  - Posted by: Peter Rosa
  - Date: Sat Dec 6 17:42:17 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: LIRR Hunterspoint posted by Bootsy on December 02, 1997 at 15:52:49: >Hunterspoint Avenue and Long Island City are two seperate stations. LIC is >the terminus. That's sort of true. LIRR trains to Hunterspoint Avenue in fact terminate there as far as passengers are concerned. The track from Hunterspoint Avenue to Long Island City is not, as far as I know, used in revenue service. That might change once service on the Montauk Branch to LIC (via Richmond Hill, Penny Bridge, etc.) is discontinued.
    - Subject: Re: LIRR Hunterspoint
    - Message Number: 760136
    - Posted by: Serafin (jr)
    - Date: Sat Dec 6 17:42:42 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]LIRR Hunterspoint posted by Ted Shaine on December 02, 1997 at 14:33:52: The Ferry connection was about 46st and the east river. The track are long gone but the ferry dock was standing just till three year ago. It was torn down to make was for new co-ops. I good view of the ferry dock was from the UN in manhattan looking east to queens. You use to see the Dock slip with large white letter that said LONG ISLAND standing by a old power station.
      - Subject: Re: LIRR Hunterspoint
      - Message Number: 760165
      - Posted by: Wayne Johnson
      - Date: Sat Dec 6 17:43:50 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: LIRR Hunterspoint posted by Peter Rosa on December 02, 1997 at 16:49:22: I thought that the Hunters Point Avenue station was used by diesels, because they were not allowed into Penn Station.
        
        Subject: Re: LIRR Hunterspoint
        Message Number: 760166
        Posted by: Tim Speer
        Date: Sat Dec 6 17:43:52 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: LIRR Hunterspoint posted by Wayne Johnson on December 03, 1997 at 14:17:40: Diesels can't be prohibited in Penn Station -- Amtrak goes there too!
        
        Subject: Re: LIRR Hunterspoint
        Message Number: 760167
        Posted by: David Pirmann
        Date: Sat Dec 6 17:43:55 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: LIRR Hunterspoint posted by Tim Speer on December 03, 1997 at 14:44:15: Yes, Amtrak serves Penn Station but not with diesels. The Northeast Corridor is entirely electric-- diesel locos are changed on to trains at Washington and New Haven for trips further south or north. The Albany line is diesel but uses dual mode "Genesis" diesel/electric locos for a short distance out of Penn. -Dave
        
        Subject: Re: LIRR Hunterspoint
        Message Number: 760168
        Posted by: Todd Glickman
        Date: Sat Dec 6 17:43:57 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: LIRR Hunterspoint posted by David Pirmann on December 03, 1997 at 15:12:24: LIC and Hunterspoint Ave. serve as the western terminal for 12 am and 11 pm weekday diesel trains. Here is how they break down by route: AM -- LIC - HP via Main Line to JAM then east (3 trains) LIC - JAM via Penny Bridge then east (2 trains) HP via Main Line to JAM then east (7 trains) PM -- JAM - HP via Main Line (6 trains) JAM - HP via Main Line - LIC (3 trains) JAM - LIC via Penny Bridge (2 trains) At HP you can connect to the 7 at Hunterspoint Ave. and at LIC you can connect to the 7 at Vernon-Jackson.
        
        Subject: Re: LIRR Hunterspoint
        Message Number: 760169
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Sat Dec 6 17:43:58 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]LIRR Hunterspoint posted by Ted Shaine on December 02, 1997 at 14:33:52: The LIRR originally intended to approach Manhattan by an extension of the Atlantic Ave line almost 150 years ago. This attempt failed. It then built the Montauk Line from Long Island City, where there was a ferry from around 34th St in Manhattan, which ran until the tunnels from Penn Station were finished. Hunterspoint Ave Station is on the tunnel line near the Queens portal, which allows diesel powered consists (as to Port Jefferson) to pick up Manhattan passenger traffic. You can walk from LIC to Hunterspoint a lot easier than you could switch a train between the two.

Thread title: 14th Street Subway (760121)
Started on Sat Dec 6 17:42:11 1997, by Faline Fox

Subject: 14th Street Subway
Message Number: 760121
Posted by: Faline Fox
Date: Sat Dec 6 17:42:11 1997

Can somebody out there verify that the 14th Street subway was built using the cut-and-cover method? Various references I have consulted failed to document this. Anybody have a definitive reference? Thanks.
- Subject: Re: 14th Street Subway
- Message Number: 760219
- Posted by: Gary Jacobi
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:07:55 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]14th Street Subway posted by Faline Fox on December 02, 1997 at 15:17:12: Here I go overextending my knowledge again because nobody else has answered you! I am not sure of the Manhattan side, but I expect it was mostly cut and cover because when they deep-rock tunneled the 6th ave express tracks in 1963, they claimed it was a first. In Brooklyn I'm sure it was cut and cover, because my father told me hundreds of times how he fell into the open excavation at Hart St. in Bushwick, breaking his arm in the process.

Thread title: Train Tunnel to Staten Island (760130)
Started on Sat Dec 6 17:42:29 1997, by J. Ritter

Subject: Train Tunnel to Staten Island
Message Number: 760130
Posted by: J. Ritter
Date: Sat Dec 6 17:42:29 1997

At one time there was a posting on www.nycsubway.org/news/sirt that discussed a tunnel to Staten Island that was proposed as an extention of the 4th Ave. BMT. Additionally the posting said that the tunnel was started and then never finished. Looking for a copy of the posting which has been removed and additional information about the subject. Thanks, JR
- Subject: Re: Train Tunnel to Staten Island
- Message Number: 760131
- Posted by: Charles Fiori
- Date: Sat Dec 6 17:42:31 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Train Tunnel to Staten Island posted by J. Ritter on December 02, 1997 at 18:27:04: Look off the south end of the southbound platform at 59th Street and 4th Avenue, you will see the beginnings of the ramp which was to ultimately lead to Staten island. My colleagues at this site can fill in the other details.
  - Subject: Re: Train Tunnel to Staten Island
  - Message Number: 760132
  - Posted by: Jeffrey from Brooklyn
  - Date: Sat Dec 6 17:42:34 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Train Tunnel to Staten Island posted by J. Ritter on December 02, 1997 at 18:27:04: I had asked a question about a tunnel that branches off from the southbound N and R line between Whitehall and Court St. Many had responded that this was the beginnings of a tunnel to Staten Island, which was planned back in the 1920's. I have heard a different version of this SI tunnel story in which the tunnel was to be built as an extension of the 4th Ave (R) line from 96th st. Additionally, there were plans to install tracks on the Verrazznao bridge, but Robert Moses had his way, and I guess you know the rest!
    - Subject: Re: Train Tunnel to Staten Island
    - Message Number: 760140
    - Posted by: Alex LaBianca
    - Date: Sat Dec 6 17:42:53 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: Train Tunnel to Staten Island posted by Jeffrey from Brooklyn on December 02, 1997 at 19:45:54: I live out in Staten Island, and as such don't getto ride the N/R south of Whitehall very often. I don't know where this spur tunnel is, but it probably is not actually in Manhattan, mostly because thiere is very little of Manhattan left after Whitehall St. If it's somewhere mid-way between the two stations, it may be an alternate way to the M tracks that go up Broad St. If it's on the Brooklyn side, close to Court St., it might be a spur that connected to the abandoned line coming out of the Transit Museum. As for tunnels from Brooklyn...The original proposal was for a multi-tube tunnel from near Ft. Hamilton to near Ft. Wadsworth. Two tubes would be for cars, and the center tube for a rail connection from the end of the BMT line at 96th Street to the SIRT. Robert Moses, the highway and parks czar, prefered bridges to tunnels, because "no one can see a tunnel." As a result, a bridge was built across the Narrows instead of a tunnel - a bridge that was designed not to deal with the stresses of running trains across it.
      - Subject: Re: Train Tunnel to Staten Island
      - Message Number: 760145
      - Posted by: Steve
      - Date: Sat Dec 6 17:43:05 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Train Tunnel to Staten Island posted by Jeffrey from Brooklyn on December 02, 1997 at 19:45:54: I believe the tunnel you are referring to was part of the Nassau loop which was used up until Chrystie Street, I think.
        
        Subject: Re: Train Tunnel to Staten Island
        Message Number: 760157
        Posted by: Bill from Staten Island
        Date: Sat Dec 6 17:43:36 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Train Tunnel to Staten Island posted by Charles Fiori on December 02, 1997 at 19:07:07: I tried to look off the platform I could not see a ramp. In fact I have looked all over the tracks and in the wide areas, I could not find a ramp. The only thing I saw that might look like a ramp are the tracks that go down to the portal were the N trains go out to Coney Island.
        
        Subject: Re: Train Tunnel to Staten Island
        Message Number: 760170
        Posted by: Daniel A. Valles
        Date: Sat Dec 6 17:44:00 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Train Tunnel to Staten Island posted by Alex LaBianca on December 02, 1997 at 22:06:32: Yes, this spur is in Manhattan... When the N/R train pulls out of Whitehall Street, look out the window on the right side... You will find the beginnings of two tubes... Not very long in depth (maybe only 10 ft., if that much)... As for Robert Moses, I think he should of built the tunnel for the trains, and keep the bridge for the cars, as it is now... NYC is supposed to be united...
        
        Subject: Re: Train Tunnel to Staten Island
        Message Number: 760172
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Sat Dec 6 17:44:04 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Train Tunnel to Staten Island posted by J. Ritter on December 02, 1997 at 18:27:04: Boy this subject has a life of it's own! My personal belief is that the stories of a tunnel "Having been started" are confused references to the work that was done when the 4th ave. line was built to provide for a connection to Staten Island. I have heard that this was at 59th St., but that doesn't make a lot of sense. The Narrows aren't all that narrow until the Verazanno Bridge site is reached. No engineer would attempt a crossing, Tunnel or Bridge, at any other point. The tracks continue south of the platform at 95th st. and 4th ave., which qualifies as a stub tunnel heading, doesn't it? I postulate the following: 1) What we see today south of 59th st is the ramp to the surface for the N. 2)Provision was made to extend the 4th Ave. line from 95th st. to a Staten Island Structure, when and if built. 3)This is the "Start of construction" often referred to, because the start of an under-the-Narrows tunnel would have required massive expenditures. and I'll add, 4)The connection was never built because there was little support from those living on Staten Island at that time for Subway access. Moses went with the flow. Today, it sounds like you would like to do it over, but the milk is already not only spilled, but dried up and blown away!
        
        Subject: Re: Train Tunnel to Staten Island
        Message Number: 760176
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Sat Dec 6 17:44:13 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Train Tunnel to Staten Island posted by Daniel A. Valles on December 03, 1997 at 17:49:46: I think I know what you are seeing East of Whitehall! This is where the Nassau st loop joins with the Broadway subway to use the Montague St tubes to Brooklyn! All of us jumped to the conclusion that the Court St. station referred to was the one which now serves as the Transit Museum. And all of this, needless to say, has NOTHING to do with Staten Island service.
        
        Subject: Re: Train Tunnel to Staten Island
        Message Number: 760189
        Posted by: Peter Rosa
        Date: Sat Dec 6 17:44:39 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Train Tunnel to Staten Island posted by Gary Jacobi on December 03, 1997 at 18:30:33: Those stub ends at Whitehall Street are on the right side of the N and R trains as they leave the station toward Brooklyn - in other words, heading in the general direction of Staten Island and on the other side of the N and R tunnel from the Nassau Street loop. I don't see how they could be related to the Nassau Street loop.
        
        Subject: Re: Train Tunnel to Staten Island
        Message Number: 760191
        Posted by: A. Scarpinato
        Date: Sat Dec 6 17:44:43 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Train Tunnel to Staten Island posted by Peter Rosa on December 03, 1997 at 22:00:40: I've said it before here: The only practical way it could happen would be in conjunction with a double decked-like 63rd street- tunnel combining freight from Bay Ridge with passenger service. It should emerge into the extant South Beach right of way at Hylan Blvd, with freight going over the rehabilitated bridge tp NJ and revived passenger service from Rosebank old South Beach station, and all former North Shore stops and spurs.
        
        Subject: Re: Train Tunnel to Staten Island
        Message Number: 760208
        Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:07:33 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Train Tunnel to Staten Island posted by A. Scarpinato on December 03, 1997 at 22:51:11: Went to the TA museum ast night, picked up a book entitled 'The Subway' by Stan Fischler... Inside the back cover, there is a map covering th 'expanded rapid transit facilities-New York City transir system' among othe things, it shows a subway down Ft. Hamilton Parkway, and a branch off of that line labeled 'brooklyn-staten island' line...It also shows a line to college point and bayside, apparently off th Flushing Line, the 63st tunnel connecting to Queens Blvd , aut at thr B'way/36st station (the tunnel seems frtter up manhattan...) the infqamous 2ave line, a line on morningside ave, a line called 'utica ave line, nostrand ave line, ..I'll try to scan it in and put it up... -Hank
        
        Subject: Re: Train Tunnel to Staten Island
        Message Number: 760235
        Posted by: si2000
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:08:27 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Train Tunnel to Staten Island posted by J. Ritter on December 02, 1997 at 18:27:04: The 'tunnel' was to branch off at 59th Street, head west under Owl's Head park, then under the Narrows to SI. Supposedly the covered-up shaft is still visible in Owl's Head Park. The SI shaft (location???) was supposedly filled in with the dirt from the construction of the VZB and SIE. NO ONE ON STATEN ISLAND WANTS A TUNNEL!!! We are taxpayers and realize that such a project would cost billions and would serve too few people. The MTA should concentrate on adequate and reliable express bus service, not pie-in-the-sky boondoggles.
        
        Subject: Re: Train Tunnel to Staten Island
        Message Number: 760297
        Posted by: shunya
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:12:18 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Train Tunnel to Staten Island posted by Hank Eisenstein on December 04, 1997 at 12:16:03: there's a partially build tunnel to Staten Island(you can see the tubes divert from whitehall street going south bound) a conductor told me that the tunnel was built up to the middle of the new york bay and abandon(or somethin) because of pressure there......
        
        Subject: Re: Train Tunnel to Staten Island
        Message Number: 760324
        Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:13:31 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Train Tunnel to Staten Island posted by shunya on December 06, 1997 at 19:01:58: What you see there is all there is. -Hank
        
        Subject: Re: Train Tunnel to Staten Island
        Message Number: 760325
        Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:13:33 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Train Tunnel to Staten Island posted by si2000 on December 05, 1997 at 08:21:06: That's so much Bull. There's a very vocal minority who don't want the expected 'problems' such a tunnel would bring. Add in those people who don't want it anywhere near their homes (like the s61 people) and you can't build it. It's been on a wish list for Islanders for generations. -Hank
        
        Subject: Re: Train Tunnel to Staten Island
        Message Number: 760390
        Posted by: Yes It's True
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:22:48 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Train Tunnel to Staten Island posted by Hank Eisenstein on December 07, 1997 at 16:35:22: Yup that's the tunnel to Staten Island, it right there south of Whitehall. You see the Staten Island Ferry boats would walk down the stairs and slip into this tunnel to return to Staten Island for sure!!

Thread title: new stuff on nycsubway.org (dave?) (760137)
Started on Sat Dec 6 17:42:45 1997, by Lefty

Subject: new stuff on nycsubway.org (dave?)
Message Number: 760137
Posted by: Lefty
Date: Sat Dec 6 17:42:45 1997

hey.. whats coming up new for nycsubway.org? do you have anything in the works? when?
- Subject: Re: new stuff on nycsubway.org (dave?)
- Message Number: 760154
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Sat Dec 6 17:43:28 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]new stuff on nycsubway.org (dave?) posted by Lefty on December 02, 1997 at 21:19:00: Nothing major is in the works. In fact, nothing minor is in the works. If anyone has any ideas that would be fine but volunteers would be better.
  - Subject: Re: new stuff on nycsubway.org (dave?)
  - Message Number: 760178
  - Posted by: Philip E. Dominguez
  - Date: Sat Dec 6 17:44:17 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: new stuff on nycsubway.org (dave?) posted by David Pirmann on December 03, 1997 at 08:04:45: Dear Dave, I have many photo's of trains I could contribute but I do not have access to a scanner. As soon as I get a chance I will scan them and e-mail them to you. - Phil
    - Subject: Re: new stuff on nycsubway.org (dave?)
    - Message Number: 760220
    - Posted by: Tipper
    - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:07:57 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: new stuff on nycsubway.org (dave?) posted by David Pirmann on December 03, 1997 at 08:04:45: i always thought a segment on station design would be good.

Thread title: Proposed NYCT S53 extension to 86 St & 4 Av in Spring 1998. (760138)
Started on Sat Dec 6 17:42:48 1997, by Mike

Subject: Proposed NYCT S53 extension to 86 St & 4 Av in Spring 1998.
Message Number: 760138
Posted by: Mike
Date: Sat Dec 6 17:42:48 1997

I have recently heard that NYCT plans to extend the S53 bus from 95 St & 4 Av up to 86 St & 4 Av to serve the shopping district & to provide new transfer connections at 86 St to the B16/64 & 70, As part of this proposal, NYCT plans to restructure the S79, B8 & B70 routes in Bay Ridge as part of the S53 extension.
- Subject: Re: Proposed NYCT S53 extension to 86 St & 4 Av in Spring 1998.
- Message Number: 760151
- Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
- Date: Sat Dec 6 17:43:19 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Proposed NYCT S53 extension to 86 St & 4 Av in Spring 1998. posted by Mike on December 02, 1997 at 21:55:03: The reasoning for this is to have a combined terminal for services to Staten Island at a station that is not a terminal for several other bus lines. -Hank

Thread title: Haifa subway system (760141)
Started on Sat Dec 6 17:42:56 1997, by Lefty

Subject: Haifa subway system
Message Number: 760141
Posted by: Lefty
Date: Sat Dec 6 17:42:56 1997

does anyone have any info on the subway system in Haifa, Israel? pictures? equipment types?

Thread title: Re: M-1 door control panel (760144)
Started on Sat Dec 6 17:43:03 1997, by Steve

Subject: Re: M-1 door control panel
Message Number: 760144
Posted by: Steve
Date: Sat Dec 6 17:43:03 1997

In Reply to: [7]M-1 door control panel posted by Jack on December 01, 1997 at 11:27:44: Pass. Release stands for Passenger Release. When the M-1s were delivered, they were equipped with a feature similar to one used on systems like Buffalo. Passenger release simply means that when energized, the doors could be opened by passengers by pressing a button either inside or outside of the train. This is very handy in cold or inclenent weather since only the doors that are needed to be opened actually do open. I looked at an M-1 this morning and found that the buttons, on the car exterior and on the wind-screen panels(indside) have been removed and covered over with plates. I was told that the feature was removed from the LIRR around 1980.
- Subject: Re: M-1 door control panel
- Message Number: 760156
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Sat Dec 6 17:43:32 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Re: M-1 door control panel posted by Steve on December 02, 1997 at 23:46:10: Such a system is in place on much of the rolling stock of the London Underground and Paris Metro. I've long thought that it should be more common. Not only is the weather factor important, reducing electricity consumption for heating or cooling, it saves wear and tear on the doors by a large amount. I'd guess anywhere from 25%-50% reduction in door openings (more as you get further and further away from the "downtown" area). -Dave
  - Subject: Re: M-1 door control panel
  - Message Number: 760197
  - Posted by: Steve
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:07:03 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: M-1 door control panel posted by David Pirmann on December 03, 1997 at 08:09:42: In Buffalo, it's only used in the downtown area wher the trains run in the streets. It's not used at stations in tunnels

Thread title: NY streetcar systems (760149)
Started on Sat Dec 6 17:43:13 1997, by Sergiy Pakhomov

Subject: NY streetcar systems
Message Number: 760149
Posted by: Sergiy Pakhomov
Date: Sat Dec 6 17:43:13 1997

Does anybody know about the map of the NY streetcar system(s) on the net? Thanks.

Thread title: "one good thing mayor giuliani hasnt taken credit for" (760155)
Started on Sat Dec 6 17:43:30 1997, by Lefty

Subject: "one good thing mayor giuliani hasnt taken credit for"
Message Number: 760155
Posted by: Lefty
Date: Sat Dec 6 17:43:30 1997

an advertisement containing this text was removed from 70something nycta buses by order of our mayor because it violated his privacy. it was soon decided by a judge that the ads were completely legal and they were reapplied to the buses. are there any other instances where ads on nycta buses or subways were found inappropriate and were removed?
- Subject: Re: "one good thing mayor giuliani hasnt taken credit for"
- Message Number: 760158
- Posted by: Lou
- Date: Sat Dec 6 17:43:38 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]"one good thing mayor giuliani hasnt taken credit for" posted by Lefty on December 03, 1997 at 08:06:06: Umm, Hiz Honor got at temporary injunction and the adds are still off until Thursday when the appeal is heard. Don't know about other adds, I think there was some Jean one's that showed young adults that were pulled.
  - Subject: Re: "one good thing mayor giuliani hasnt taken credit for"
  - Message Number: 760190
  - Posted by: Joe-m
  - Date: Sat Dec 6 17:44:41 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: "one good thing mayor giuliani hasnt taken credit for" posted by Lou on December 03, 1997 at 08:35:37: I think it was a CK jean ad. that was pulled about two years ago
    - Subject: Re: "one good thing mayor giuliani hasnt taken credit for"
    - Message Number: 760221
    - Posted by: Eric
    - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:07:58 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: "one good thing mayor giuliani hasnt taken credit for" posted by Joe-m on December 03, 1997 at 22:37:54: Yeah, it was a CK ad w/ minors shown half-naked, 14 - 17 year old males & females
      - Subject: Re: "one good thing mayor giuliani hasnt taken credit for"
      - Message Number: 760349
      - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
      - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:20:58 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: "one good thing mayor giuliani hasnt taken credit for" posted by Eric on December 04, 1997 at 20:23:55: This begs the question "which is more reprehensible, child pornography, or mocking Rudy Guiliani." I guess it depends on who is living in Gracie Mansion at the time. By the way, for what little this info is worth, I attended both High School and College with Rudy, who was one year behind me, from 1959 through 1964. I HAVE NO RECOLLECTION OF HIM AT ALL! Beware of late bloomers!

Thread title: Electricity (was Re: LIRR Hunterspoint) (760171)
Started on Sat Dec 6 17:44:02 1997, by Daniel A. Valles

Subject: Electricity (was Re: LIRR Hunterspoint)
Message Number: 760171
Posted by: Daniel A. Valles
Date: Sat Dec 6 17:44:02 1997

In Reply to: [7]Re: LIRR Hunterspoint posted by David Pirmann on December 03, 1997 at 15:12:24: David: I have a question... Since you mentioned how the Northeast Corridor is electrified, which you happen to know why some sections of the Long Island Rail Road (eg. points east of Babylon, Huntington, and Ronkonkoma) never received electrified rails instead of having these diesels? And, do you know if LIRR is planning to electrify the entire system? If you electrify everything, wouldn't that improve service... Then, certain lines like the LIC-Jamaica stretch can be improved or given over to the NYCTA so that they can use for a subway (eg. a cross-Queens line running from JFK to Flushing)...
- Subject: Re: Electricity (was Re: LIRR Hunterspoint)
- Message Number: 760187
- Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
- Date: Sat Dec 6 17:44:35 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Electricity (was Re: LIRR Hunterspoint) posted by Daniel A. Valles on December 03, 1997 at 18:00:19: A couple of reasons. Lack of power out there on the Island. Lack of the Shoreham nuke. High power costs. The fact that third rail DC sucks for mainline electrification. The cost of a substation with AC->DC every mile is itself one of the more limiting factors. I seriously doubt there will ever be anymore electrification on the LIRR. If there is, my guess in order would be: Port Jeff Montauk Oyster Bay LIC Greenport I don't think the last 3 lines will be around much longer, and Greenport will probbably never get electrified. But unless LILCO drops their rates by at least 5 - 7 c/kwh, and the LIRR decided to actually improve their service, I doubt anything will be extended beyond the current boundries.
  - Subject: Re: Electricity (was Re: LIRR Hunterspoint)
  - Message Number: 760201
  - Posted by: Todd Glickman
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:07:13 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: Electricity (was Re: LIRR Hunterspoint) posted by Philip Nasadowski on December 03, 1997 at 21:00:52: There's another reason too, at least for the Oyster Bay line. When I was growing up in Roslyn, the conventional wisdom was that the residents from Roslyn up through Oyster Bay did not want electrification when the LIRR was proposing it. The stated reason was that it would "urbanize" the region too much. There is actually a teenie part of the OB line that is electrified, from Mineola to East Williston. The third rail ends about 1000 feet east of Hillside Avenue; there is a cross-over to turn M-1/M3 trains. The LIRR has always run one train a day (weekdays only) over that track to keep the third rail shiny and happy. It deadheads to EW, then becomes the 7:28am from EW to Penna Station, arriving at 8:14am. I recall riding it once (in the early 70's?) and it made EVERY STOP from Mineola to Jamaica, including Floral Park (which has a very rarely used third platform on the westbound main line local track), Queens Village, Bellaire, Hollis, and Union Hall Street. Since then and now in modertn times it has returned to a normal route, bypassing the local stations west of New Hyde Park which are served by the Hempstead Branch.

Thread title: Some ideas on extending the subway (as crazy as they may be!)(long post) (760179)
Started on Sat Dec 6 17:44:20 1997, by Ogre

Subject: Some ideas on extending the subway (as crazy as they may be!)(long post)
Message Number: 760179
Posted by: Ogre
Date: Sat Dec 6 17:44:20 1997

I recently saw a posting regarding the extension of the subway, and people were giving their ideas... I have some ideas; some are strange, and others are just downright ludicrous, but let's see the input I get back from it... What I will do is list each of the lines, and give my opinions: #1/9 - Would be nice if the line would extend further than 242nd Street, but since this is a local line, I'd leave it alone... #2 - Leave it... #3 - I would extend it father than New Lots Avenue, but I have two problems with that: a) Where and how far? and b) the rail yard is there, so the tracks would have to be relocated... #4 - Being a former resident of the Bronx, I always wanted this train to extend beyond Woodlawn... My recommendation is to run it along Jerome Avenue, turn at 238 Street, and run it until Katonah Avenue... That way, people in this area may have an easier access to the subway... #5 - I want it to go to New Rochelle, but that is NEVER going to happen... #6 - Leave along... #7 - There have been enough postings on extension beyond Main Street and Times Square, but I would extend it to the north to where College Point is at rather than using the Port Washington ROW... A - By far the longest line in the city... DON'T EXTEND IT!! B - Rated the worst line by a New York newspaper, I say reduce the service in Manhattan instead of extending it to the Bronx in '98... C - Leave... Once it moves over permanently to 168 Street, it'll be fine... D - I like the idea proposed in the long post by Bobby dealing with the Second Avenue subway... But, I would run it on Buhre Avenue as far as Boston Road... E - Extend service to Merrick Boulevard, then go SW to Linden Blvd... F - Extend service to Springfield Boulevard and Hillside Avenue... G - I would extend the current service to Church Avenue, and have the F run express from Jay Street until Church Avenue... J/Z - Though plans were brought up about extending this, I wouldn't do it... This line makes many stops in Brooklyn and Queens, so making more stations would just delay service... L - Bring service back to Canarsie Piers... I hate to wait for the B42 (I think) and taking this bus to the Piers... Service did exist before, but ir ran on the street... Elevating the line may work, but severe reconstruction would have to occur at Rockaway Parkway... M - Leave... N - Extending it beyond Ditmars Boulevard is not a bad idea, but only if this train were to run express in Manhattan... RE-OPEN THE BRIDGE!! If not, build a tunnel, or use the F train tunnels... Theey are severly underused... Q - What will happen to this line once the 63rd Street Connection is complete? Someone mentioned that there are platforms on the other side of the walls at the Lexington Avenue station... Why not use this platform, and provide service up 2nd Avenue... Then, instead of running over the 6th Avenue line, it can run along Broadway... That way, both Broadway and 6th Avenue would have 2 express lines and 1 local line (the B,D & F on tne 6th Ave., and the N,Q & R on Broadway)... Since there are tunnels in place in some sections underneath 2nd Ave., they wouldn't have to build many more tunnels... R - Extend service to SI, at least until an SIRR station, so that way all the trains in the city can be united... The Shuttles - Keep the 42nd Street shuttle, but extend the Franklin Avenue shuttle beyond Fulton Street... maybe up to Lafayette Avenue, so that way another transfer can be provided along this line (the transfer would be at the Bedford/Nostrand station on the G)... Well, I have rambled long enough... I know many people out there are going to complain about my ideas, but it's worth a shot... Sorry again about the long post... I hope I can trigger even more ideas... Sincerely, Daniel A. Valles a.k.a. "Ogre" Senior, Pace University
- Subject: Some ideas on extending the subway (as crazy as they may be!)(long post)
- Message Number: 760180
- Posted by: Ogre
- Date: Sat Dec 6 17:44:23 1997
  
  I recently saw a posting regarding the extension of the subway, and people were giving their ideas... I have some ideas; some are strange, and others are just downright ludicrous, but let's see the input I get back from it... What I will do is list each of the lines, and give my opinions: #1/9 - Would be nice if the line would extend further than 242nd Street, but since this is a local line, I'd leave it alone... #2 - Leave it... #3 - I would extend it farther than New Lots Avenue, but I have two problems with that: a) Where and how far? and b) the rail yard is there, so the tracks would have to be relocated... #4 - Being a former resident of the Bronx, I always wanted this train to extend beyond Woodlawn... My recommendation is to run it along Jerome Avenue, turn at 238 Street, and run it until Katonah Avenue... That way, people in this area may have an easier access to the subway... #5 - I want it to go to New Rochelle, but that is NEVER going to happen... #6 - Leave along... #7 - There have been enough postings on extension beyond Main Street and Times Square, but I would extend it beyond Main Street north to where College Point is rather than using the Port Washington ROW... A - By far the longest line in the city... DON'T EXTEND IT!! B - Rated the worst line by a New York newspaper, I say reduce the service in Manhattan instead of extending it to the Bronx in '98... C - Leave... Once it moves over permanently to 168 Street, it'll be fine... D - I like the idea proposed in the long post by Bobby dealing with the Second Avenue subway... But, I would run it on Buhre Avenue as far as Boston Road... E - Extend service to Merrick Boulevard, then go SW to Linden Blvd... F - Extend service to Springfield Boulevard and Hillside Avenue... G - I would extend the current service to Church Avenue, and have the F run express from Jay Street until Church Avenue... J/Z - Though plans were brought up about extending this line, I wouldn't do it... This line makes many stops in Brooklyn and Queens, so making more stations would just delay service... L - Bring service back to Canarsie Piers... I hate to wait for the B42 (I think) at Rockwaway Parkway... Service did exist before, but it ran on the street... Elevating the line may work, but severe reconstruction would have to occur at Rockaway Parkway... M - Leave... N - Extending it beyond Ditmars Boulevard is not a bad idea, but only if this train were to run express in Manhattan... RE-OPEN THE BRIDGE!! If not, build a tunnel, or use the F train tunnels... Theey are severly underused... Q - What will happen to this line once the 63rd Street Connection is complete? Someone mentioned that there are platforms on the other side of the walls at the Lexington Avenue station... Why not use this platform, and provide service up 2nd Avenue... Then, instead of running over the 6th Avenue line, it can run along Broadway... That way, both Broadway and 6th Avenue would have 2 express lines and 1 local line (the B,D & F on tne 6th Ave., and the N,Q & R on Broadway)... Since there are tunnels in place in some sections underneath 2nd Ave., they wouldn't have to build many more tunnels... R - Extend service to SI, at least until an SIRR station, so that way all the trains in the city can be united... The Shuttles - Keep the 42nd Street shuttle, but extend the Franklin Avenue shuttle beyond Fulton Street... maybe up to Lafayette Avenue, so that way another transfer can be provided along this line (the transfer would be at the Bedford/Nostrand station on the G)... Well, I have rambled long enough... I know many people out there are going to complain about my ideas, but it's worth a shot... Sorry again about the long post... I hope I can trigger even more ideas... Sincerely, Daniel A. Valles a.k.a. "Ogre" Senior, Pace University
  - Subject: Re: Some ideas on extending the subway (as crazy as they may be!)(long post)
  - Message Number: 760181
  - Posted by: Ogre
  - Date: Sat Dec 6 17:44:24 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Some ideas on extending the subway (as crazy as they may be!)(long post) posted by Ogre on December 03, 1997 at 19:29:12: Sorry about this post... I put it on before spell-checking it... Whoever controls Subtalk, could you delete this post... THANKS!!!!!
    - Subject: Re: Some ideas on extending the subway (as crazy as they may be!)(long post)
    - Message Number: 760188
    - Posted by: Peter Rosa
    - Date: Sat Dec 6 17:44:37 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Some ideas on extending the subway (as crazy as they may be!)(long post) posted by Ogre on December 03, 1997 at 19:33:21: Here's an idea - Extend the L west from its current terminal at 8th Avenue, loop it north along 10th and then 11th Avenues to serve the Javits Center, turn it back eastward at some point north of Javits (maybe in the 50s?), and connect it to the 8th Avenue local line, possibly using the lower level at 42nd Street. Obviously, there would be some obstacles to any such extension, such as the 8th Avenue lines at 14th Street, but if they could be overcome there would be some major benefits. The Javits Center would finally get subway service, as would West Chelsea and Hell's Kitchen. Comments?
      - Subject: Re: Some ideas on extending the subway (as crazy as they may be!)(long post)
      - Message Number: 760193
      - Posted by: Mike K
      - Date: Sat Dec 6 17:44:47 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Some ideas on extending the subway (as crazy as they may be!)(long post) posted by Peter Rosa on December 03, 1997 at 21:56:36: Great idea... only one problem: would you terminate the line at the lower level of 42nd Street, or have it run back downtown and connect with the L at Eighth Avenue. The idea of a one-directional loop might actually make something like this feasible.
        
        Subject: Re: Some ideas on extending the subway (as crazy as they may be!)(long post)
        Message Number: 760200
        Posted by: Sammy
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:07:11 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Some ideas on extending the subway (as crazy as they may be!)(long post) posted by Peter Rosa on December 03, 1997 at 21:56:36: What a great idea. There is some trackage (although I think it is still privately owned) that runs from Hudson St. to the Javitrs before going underground to points unknown. The latter part of chelsea, long given up for dead, has become a vibrant community once again. Mass transit to 23rd street (besides buses) would benefit the Chelsea Piers. Many galleries have abandon SoHo for chelsea, and with the opening of the Williams Sonoma warehouse on 10th in the late 20's, it would be a perfect fit for the rising economics of the community.
        
        Subject: Re: Some ideas on extending the subway (as crazy as they may be!)(long post)
        Message Number: 760202
        Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:07:16 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Some ideas on extending the subway (as crazy as they may be!)(long post) posted by Peter Rosa on December 03, 1997 at 21:56:36: At one time, there were plans to have the east end of the 14th St. line in Manhattan have a branch so that eastbound 14th St. trains could also turn south onto Avenue C, turn west onto Houston Street, then merge with the northbound 6th Avenue Subway at 2nd Avenue. Combining this plan with the Javits Center plan would make a great way to have a heavily travelled new crosstown line, half of which already exists and is underused. It could even be the train that goes through the 63rd St. tunnel to Queens via 6th Avenue after entering the 2nd Avenue station, allowing the Q train to run on Broadway again. BTW, I believe the Canarsie pier extension of the Canarsie line was a trolley car, not the Subway. So the #42 bus became the (un)natural free-transfer replacement.
        
        Subject: Re: Some ideas on extending the subway (as crazy as they may be!)(long post)
        Message Number: 760213
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:07:42 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Some ideas on extending the subway (as crazy as they may be!)(long post) posted by Ogre on December 03, 1997 at 19:33:21: >> #6 - Leave along... I'd extend the #6 into Co-Op City so passengers there can have a one seat ride into Manhattan. Of course, this would increase capacity on an already-overutilized East Side IRT ..... --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: Some ideas on extending the subway (as crazy as they may be!)(long post)
        Message Number: 760217
        Posted by: Ogre
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:07:51 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Some ideas on extending the subway (as crazy as they may be!)(long post) posted by Peter Rosa on December 03, 1997 at 21:56:36: Actually, that isn't a bad idea... Then, if Steinbrenner decides to keep the Yankees in the City, and use the West Side Yards for the location of the Stadium, subway service can still be provided to Yankee games, and can severly reduce the already congested area... One thought: Didn't an elevated train run through the area years ago (I believe 10th Avenue)... The remains of an el still stands... Maybe they should use it...
        
        Subject: Re: Some ideas on extending the subway (as crazy as they may be!)(long post)
        Message Number: 760226
        Posted by: Peter Rosa
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:08:08 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Some ideas on extending the subway (as crazy as they may be!)(long post) posted by Ogre on December 04, 1997 at 16:39:44: Those remains you see on the west side are part of an elevated freight line. It originally ran as far as where the entrance of the Lincoln Tunnel is now located, then was cut back to around Bank Street in the West Village. Service ended completely maybe 15 - 20 years ago. From what I've heard, parts of the elevated structure have been taken over by adjoining property owners, so any resumption of service might be impossible.
        
        Subject: Re: Some ideas on extending the subway (as crazy as they may be!)(long post)
        Message Number: 760286
        Posted by: Phil Marasca
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:11:49 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Some ideas on extending the subway (as crazy as they may be!)(long post) posted by Peter Rosa on December 04, 1997 at 22:59:56: How about an extension to Laguadia and JFK airports? The airports are some of the biggest traffic generators in the NY metro area and the MTA misses them by 2 to 3 miles. What's worse they don't seem to care!
        
        Subject: Re: Some ideas on extending the subway (as crazy as they may be!)(long post)
        Message Number: 760288
        Posted by: Bob Sklar
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:11:53 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Some ideas on extending the subway (as crazy as they may be!)(long post) posted by Ogre on December 03, 1997 at 19:29:12: About your comments on extending the (F) line: Someone once told me that the original intention when building the IND Queens Blvd. line was to extend it along Hillside Av. as far as Springfield Blvd. As my aunt and uncle have lived near there for the past 46 years, I was always familiar with the fact that Hillside Av. spreads out extremely wide at that point. The safety zones in the middle were actually open to car parking at one time! When I asked someone about it, that was what I was told, although I have never seen the least reference to it on any map or plan. It makes sense since 179th St. is obviously not designed as a terminal station. Bob Sklar
        
        Subject: Re: Some ideas on extending the subway (as crazy as they may be!)(long post)
        Message Number: 760443
        Posted by: Ogre
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:25:05 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Some ideas on extending the subway (as crazy as they may be!)(long post) posted by Phil Marasca on December 06, 1997 at 13:14:48: Well, they certainly can make a connection of JFK to Mid-town Manhattan... It may difficult, but certainly not impossible... They can use some of the land that exists between the Howard Beach station and JFK and build a two-track rail line... Hook this up to the A, but, instead of using the A tracks at Rockaway Blvd., use the LIRR tracks from the old Rockaway Line... Run these tracks until both the tracks by the Fresh Pond Junction, as well as a connection to the Main Line... I understand a connection to the Main Line of the LIRR may not work due to the fact that the train will be using subway tracks... But, since they are building the 63rd Street connection, congestion should go down... Then, build a tunnel from the Fresh Pond Junction to a little east of the 71st/Continental Aves station (I know it's a little out of the way, but it won't disrupt service... Then, you can have your connection to LIC as well as Mid-town Manhattan... LaGuardia Service... Hmmmm... Unless the extend the N east on Ditmars Blvd., the only other solution is to create a shuttle train from Willets Point to LGA... It may work, but I'm trying to figure out the exact route of this line...
        
        Subject: Re: Some ideas on extending the subway (as crazy as they may be!)(long post)
        Message Number: 760445
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:25:16 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Some ideas on extending the subway (as crazy as they may be!)(long post) posted by Ogre on December 10, 1997 at 15:51:05: Take a look at the 1929 NY Times article posted here a few weeks ago. Dave has put it permanently in the Historic section of Subway Resources. Otherwise, you may find yourself reinventing the wheel, especially the Fresh Pond Junction connection.

Thread title: Canal Street- Bridge Tracks (760182)
Started on Sat Dec 6 17:44:26 1997, by subway-buff

Subject: Canal Street- Bridge Tracks
Message Number: 760182
Posted by: subway-buff
Date: Sat Dec 6 17:44:26 1997

Does anyone know if they are planning on reopening these tracks. On 11/29/1997, I went throught here(on foot) and saw workmen clearing the tracks of all the rubble. I crossed the bridge and it looks lioek they are doing track work on the B'way tracks. Does anyone know the plans when the 6 av tracks are closed (if they reopen the B'way tracks)
- Subject: Re: Canal Street- Bridge Tracks
- Message Number: 760267
- Posted by: Eric B
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:10:48 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Canal Street- Bridge Tracks posted by subway-buff on December 03, 1997 at 19:36:55: I've now heard several tears now, as the beams under the tracks are to be replaced. That's the same reason the nearly completed walkway next to the tracks won't open. The only question--will the 6th Av tracks hold out that long?

Thread title: How does a subway get extended? (760186)
Started on Sat Dec 6 17:44:33 1997, by BJ

Subject: How does a subway get extended?
Message Number: 760186
Posted by: BJ
Date: Sat Dec 6 17:44:33 1997

What are all the steps that a subway or Rapid Transit Line goes through before getting extended? Iknow that the TA has to approve it and have enough funding for it. But do the people in the are where it is going to be extended to have to approve of it also, and are there any other steps? Also, do they ever consider getting higher speed trains? If the Blue Line was extended to Schaumburg or the Skokie Swift was extended to Old Orchard Shopping center they couldn't operate the trains making all the stops cause they would take to long of a ride. Or do they Just conside Express Service on the current equipment?
- Subject: Re: How does a subway get extended?
- Message Number: 760225
- Posted by: GAR
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:08:06 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]How does a subway get extended? posted by BJ on December 03, 1997 at 20:44:42: Well I'm not a transit planner but here's my two cents: First the route extension would have to be justified thru a study (rideship projections ect.) Then comes the fun part;The funding & control fights between TA's cities, state(s)& the feds. Then the ROW must be approved. Communities are making it very difficult today for all types of transport. Highway expansions, airport noise restrictions ect. When involving a city TA expanding into the suburbs it will be intensified by typical city-suburban conflicts; fears of crime,racism; of city government expanding its influence in suburban communities. Often the suburban controlled and state funded heavy rail agencies have an easier time expanding service by utilizing exsisting freight rail lines. The routes are perceived to be used to carry suburbanites into the city; though increasingly they are used by city dwellers to commute to jobs in the suburbs. They also have fewer stops and have longer average trip distances. Finally, it's much more glamorous for the pols to cut the ribbon on a new transit extension than fully funding exsisting services and making necessary capital improvments. cap
  - Subject: Re: How does a subway get extended?
  - Message Number: 760293
  - Posted by: Alan Follett
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:12:09 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]How does a subway get extended? posted by BJ on December 03, 1997 at 20:44:42: Concerning your two Chicago-area examples: 1. I don't think the long-discussed extension of the Yellow Line (Skokie Swift) to Old Orchard would cause any particular operational problems. Old Orchard Road is only a couple of miles north of the present terminal at Dempster Street. This would presumably entail no more than additional three or four minutes of running time; express service wouldn't be a consideration, since Dempster would be the only intermediate stop. 2. I've been living outside the Chicago area for the last ten years, and have not read much detail on the proposed Blue Line extension to Schaumburg. Possibly someone in that area can fill in more, but it's my understanding that the proposal is to diverge from the present line somewhere east of O'Hare and continue to Schaumburg roughly following the Northwest Tollway. Running time into downtown Chicago would certainly be a problem without express service; and the present Blue Line in the Kennedy Expressway median doesn't have many places where a third, express track could be installed (though there is a longish center track west of Jefferson Park which might be adapted as a passing track). However, I believe the contemplated purpose for this line is principally suburb-to-suburb, suburb-to-airport, and reverse-commute service; rush-hour suburb-to-city riders would probably mostly continue to use the parallel METRA Milwaukee-West and UP Northwest trains, which are certainly faster than anything the CTA could manage without sacrificing a lane or two of the Kennedy for express tracks. One possibility that occurs to me for getting around this problem would be building a CTA-UP connection somewhere around Jefferson Park and running Schaumburg (and O'Hare?) express service into North Western Station. This might be a good RegioSprinter application, if third-rail clearance on the CTA portion is not a problem. (Oh, I'm just full of ideas for spending other folks' money!)
    - Subject: Re: How does a subway get extended?
    - Message Number: 760453
    - Posted by: Joe M
    - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:25:53 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: How does a subway get extended? posted by Alan Follett on December 06, 1997 at 17:07:48: Have you heard the talk of running metra on the freight bypass brom Wauklegan to Ohare then south ?? Truth or just rummor??
      - Subject: Re: How does a subway get extended?
      - Message Number: 760486
      - Posted by: Alan Follett
      - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:28:05 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: How does a subway get extended? posted by Joe M on December 10, 1997 at 23:57:55:

Thread title: Re: Some ideas ... (Canarsie through service) (760207)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:07:30 1997, by Ed Sachs

Subject: Re: Some ideas ... (Canarsie through service)
Message Number: 760207
Posted by: Ed Sachs
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:07:30 1997

In Reply to: [7]Re: Some ideas on extending the subway (as crazy as they may be!)(long post) posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 04, 1997 at 09:25:56: > BTW, I believe the Canarsie pier extension of the Canarsie line was a > trolley car, not the Subway. So the #42 bus became the (un)natural > free-transfer replacement. Prior to the rebuilding of the Canarsie line in the 1920's, elevated trains ran at ground level using overhead trolley wire from Sutter Ave. to the Canarsie Pier. When it was rebuilt and elevated to New Lots Ave., and began running service with Subway cars, a terminal/transfer station was built at Rockaway Parkway, and the section from there to Canarsie Pier was serviced with trolley cars (along the private right-of-way, about 2-3 blocks west of Rockaway Parkway). Busses along Rockaway Parkway replaced the trolleys around 1950.
- Subject: Re: Some ideas ... (Canarsie through service)
- Message Number: 760212
- Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:07:40 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Re: Some ideas ... (Canarsie through service) posted by Ed Sachs on December 04, 1997 at 10:38:30: The ROW ran between E95st and E96 st in brooklyn...right behind my grandparents house....some of the wire spports were still there a few years ago (My grandmother has since moved) -Hank
  - Subject: Re: Some ideas ... (Canarsie through service)
  - Message Number: 760214
  - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:07:44 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Some ideas ... (Canarsie through service) posted by Ed Sachs on December 04, 1997 at 10:38:30: Don't forget that a great deal of the need for the original service density to the pier ended when boat service to the Rockaways was discontinued, as well as the amusement park rides. Anybody have an idea of what date those events occurred?

Thread title: Re: nyc 2nd Ave subwayBUTTON at Rock Ctr Layup (760210)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:07:37 1997, by Lou

Subject: Re: nyc 2nd Ave subwayBUTTON at Rock Ctr Layup
Message Number: 760210
Posted by: Lou
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:07:37 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: nyc 2nd Ave subway posted by Mike K on December 03, 1997 at 23:00:24: I look this morning on the uptown local track (F) at 47th-50th Street Rock. Ctr Route Selection buttons. There are 4, one for the normal F route to Queens, one for 57th Street (Q/B) service and one marked "57th St. Non Revenue" which I assume is for the Layup tracks. Err, I said four button, there is a cancel button .

Thread title: PATH 21st Station (760215)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:07:47 1997, by Bill Campbell

Subject: PATH 21st Station
Message Number: 760215
Posted by: Bill Campbell
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:07:47 1997

I have noticed while riding the 33st/Hoboken line the deserted 21st station. I have seen an old advertisement on the wall of the station for the old broadway musical Carousel.....My curiosity wants to know the history of this station...and...where is the street entrance? Anyone know?
- Subject: Re: PATH 21st Station
- Message Number: 760216
- Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:07:49 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]PATH 21st Station posted by Bill Campbell on December 04, 1997 at 14:07:30: I believe it is the 19th Street Station you can see. There used to be a 19th St and a 28th St. Station. One was abandoned, one was destroyed when the IND 6th Avenue Subway was built. Even the current 33rd St. station isn't the original station.
  - Subject: Re: PATH 21st Station
  - Message Number: 760279
  - Posted by: Lou from Middletown
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:11:27 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]PATH 21st Station posted by Bill Campbell on December 04, 1997 at 14:07:30: Just asking, but wasnt once a proposal to put some sort of H&M/Path exhibit there once? I thoght I had hears something about that-or is ti just another rumor????
    - Subject: Re: PATH 21st Station
    - Message Number: 760311
    - Posted by: Mike K
    - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:12:57 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: PATH 21st Station posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 04, 1997 at 14:20:16: Bill-- What you are seeing is the former 19th Street Station, which closed in 1954. I'm not exactly sure where the entrances were, but looking at the station as you pass by (dim as the light is), I would presume they're were very close to the intersection of 19th St and Sixth Avenue. (If you ride past that station, you can even see some of the early 1950s ads on the walls--at least through the dim lighting and whatever reconstruction they've done.) As for the 28th Street station, Carl is right--partially. Construction of the 6th Avenue IND did not DIRECTLY impact that vanished station. What happened is that construction of the IND forced the original 33rd street station--which WAS at 33rd Street--to be moved south by a block. When they did that, they also expanded the station. The northern end is technically at 32nd Street, while the southern end (not always open) is at 30th Street. When that was done, the 28th Street Station was rendered useless and closed. I believe the 28th Street Station disappeared because its space was taken when the tracks to the 33rd Street terminus were realigned. Michael

Thread title: Cedar St. Subway: Anything Left? (760218)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:07:53 1997, by John Crowley

Subject: Cedar St. Subway: Anything Left?
Message Number: 760218
Posted by: John Crowley
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:07:53 1997

I'm curious about the old Cedar Street Subway in Newark, the three-block streetcar/bus tunnel to Public Service terminal built in 1916 to relieve downtown congestion. I know the last bus ran out of there in 1966; I know the Washington Street portal is still there, and I know the PS terminal was torn down, but does anyone know if anything is left of the stations or loop?

Thread title: Questions on subway engineering?? (760228)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:08:12 1997, by Kevin Gillespie

Subject: Questions on subway engineering??
Message Number: 760228
Posted by: Kevin Gillespie
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:08:12 1997

I would like to see my communtiy incorporate a tram system. I need some general information so I can at least sound intelligent. I would appreciate your help. 1)Who are the major manufactures of electric cars? 2)What are the most popular and the best designed? 3)What is the difference between light and heavy rail? 4)What do trains run on? AC/DC. What is the most efficient? 5) How do 3rd rail compare with overhead sytems? Are they cross utilized on some lines? 6) Are third rail systems live and therefore a hazard to pedestrians... therefore the reason they are not seen in street rail systems? 7) What does a modern car cost? Thanks in advance! Please e-mail reply. KJG
- Subject: Re: Questions on subway engineering??
- Message Number: 760231
- Posted by: Lefty
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:08:19 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Questions on subway engineering?? posted by Kevin Gillespie on December 05, 1997 at 01:55:59: some LRV's (Light Rail Vehicles) are manufactured by Boeing. You can probably go to their website to find out more. They use overhead wires. This is a necessity for LRV's running on streets where people have to walk and cars have to drive.
  - Subject: Re: Questions on subway engineering??
  - Message Number: 760236
  - Posted by: Tim Speer
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:08:29 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: Questions on subway engineering?? posted by Lefty on December 05, 1997 at 08:08:48: Don't some LRV's use sunken third rails between the tracks?
    - Subject: Re: Questions on subway engineering??
    - Message Number: 760277
    - Posted by: Dan Lawrence
    - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:11:20 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Questions on subway engineering?? posted by Tim Speer on December 05, 1997 at 08:22:34: The "sunken third rails" you referred to are actually underground conduit systems, used in NYC and DC. Not LRV (in the modern sense) but streetcars used this system in cities where overhead wire was forbidden. The system was related to the conduit developed for cable traction, and very capital intensive. The DC system ran into the early 60's and in the peak years of the streetcar system the cars changed to overhead wire as soon as the outer areas of the city were reached. No electric conduit systems operate today.
      - Subject: Re: Questions on subway engineering??
      - Message Number: 760284
      - Posted by: Phil Marasca
      - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:11:44 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Questions on subway engineering?? posted by Kevin Gillespie on December 05, 1997 at 01:55:59: Answers to your questions as follows:1)There are more but most popular are, ABB(Swiss-Swedish), Siemens(German), Bombardier(Canadian) aforementioned all have assembly plants in the USA. Overseas Sumitomo (Japan), Breda(Italy) 2)See question 1. 3)Heavy rail requires a grade separated right of way and high level,i.e. car floor height platforms. Capacity is about 10000 riders or more per direction per track, depending on platform length, speed, signal system etc This is more than enough for all but the most densely populated cities. All US cities that need it propably already have heavy rail. Light rail can run in the street and use either high or low level platforms. Capacity is 3000 riders or more per direction per track. 4)Most modern transit systems use 750v dc. High voltage, ie AC @ 25Kv 60 Hz would not be practical for street railways for safety reasons. The subway tunnels would have to be bigger than nessary for the catenary, (overhead wires). 5)Some older suburban railways use overhead wires and 3rd rail, for example Metro North(New York metro area). However if they were to be built today they would probably use overhead catenary at AC 25 Kv @ 60 Hz or DC @ 1.5 or 3 kv. 6)Yes. 7)$1.8 to 3.5 million depending on complexity or if it is an off the shelf(existing design) or custom designed in small quantities.
        
        Subject: Re: Questions on subway engineering??
        Message Number: 760290
        Posted by: Bootsy
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:11:59 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Questions on subway engineering?? posted by Dan Lawrence on December 06, 1997 at 00:46:32: What about the cable cars in San Francisco? Is it JUST a moving cable under the street? Or is it a moving cable in addition to a third rail? Or . . . is the moving cable aslo electrified? Or, maybe - is there NO electricity flow to the cars at all?
        
        Subject: Re: Questions on subway engineering??
        Message Number: 760308
        Posted by: Dan Lawrence
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:12:50 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Questions on subway engineering?? posted by Bootsy on December 06, 1997 at 15:37:31: The cable cars of San Francisco are the last remnants of the era of cable traction as developed in SF by Hallidie, Hovey, Eppelshimer, and others. The principles of cable traction is very simple (the technology isn't, the book "The Cable Car in America" by George Hilton [prob. out of print now; check the ERA library] is the definitive work on cable traction.) and the current cars are the genuine article: cars grip and ungrip an endless cable running in the conduit. Lights are provided by batteries, the conduit carries ONLY the cable.
        
        Subject: Re: Questions on subway engineering??
        Message Number: 760329
        Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:13:48 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Questions on subway engineering?? posted by Kevin Gillespie on December 05, 1997 at 01:55:59: Somebody, somewhere, wrote: >4)Most modern transit systems use 750v dc. High voltage, ie AC @ 25Kv 60 >Hz would not be practical for street railways for safety reasons. The >subway tunnels would have to be bigger than nessary for the catenary, >(overhead wires). AFIK, there are no 25 Kv systems running in the US, although I think Amtrak tried it and it didn't fare to well. The American Flyer (tm) is supposed to be 25kv from New Haven up, if it ever runs. I believe the lions's share of the NEC is 11k 25 Hz. I know Penn in NY still is. Septic (Oops, I mean SEPTA) may be 12 + at 60Hz. I think the Hoboken stuff of NJT is 12.5 - 13ish at 60hz. It used to be 3k DC. Metro North went from 11k 25hz to as high as 17k 60Hz. I'm saying "as high as" because that's the highest I've heard quoted. >5)Some older suburban railways use overhead wires and 3rd rail, for >example Metro North(New York metro area). However if they were to be >built today they would probably use overhead catenary at AC 25 Kv @ 60 >Hz or DC @ 1.5 or 3 kv. Metro North's New Haven line is third rail 750 DC and also overhead AC as above. I believe it may be the only system in the country that is both dual power transmission AND dual voltage. Heck, it may be the only stuff in the world like that. As for voltage, unless I was totally grade free, and free of low overpasses ands tunnels, I wouldn't go up to 25K, simply because of arc over problems. Nor would I bother with 1.5 - 3 k Overhead DC (unless it was REALLY neccesary). Of course, outside of the NY/Phily area, there aren't that many electrifications. Don't ask me why every other commuter system is bent of diesel, I can't figure it out myself.

Thread title: Canarsie Line (from prev. posts) (760229)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:08:14 1997, by Sammy

Subject: Canarsie Line (from prev. posts)
Message Number: 760229
Posted by: Sammy
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:08:14 1997

As a frequent rider of the G or L lines, I have touched often on the G. With all the postings going on about the L.... Something should be/has to be done. Service is slo due to a two-track system, even though the amount of people riding the Canarsie Line has increased dramatically. Why? 1) Williamsburgh/Greenpoint population growth 2) Union Sq - one of the heaviest traveled transfer points in the system 3) Only line that really services the east - crosstown wise Clealry what is needed is another tunnel (perhaps four tracks) that will allow the L and the J, M, Z, to share passageways to Manhattan. Once across in Manhattan, the J can divert downtown, the L uptown (down B or C) to 14th and across 14th. Perhaps the tunnel should connect to Houston St where the route diversion can occur. That would allow for the rebuilding of the Williamsburgh Bridge, and the economic development of Aves B and C.
- Subject: Re: Canarsie Line (from prev. posts)
- Message Number: 760239
- Posted by: Peter Rosa
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:08:36 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Canarsie Line (from prev. posts) posted by Sammy on December 05, 1997 at 03:14:08: There's another reason for the sometimes slow service on the L. Because of some ventilation problems, only one train at a time is allowed through the East River tunnel - making it essentially a one-track operation. If/when that problem is fixed, there should be some improvements.
  - Subject: Re: Canarsie Line (from prev. posts)
  - Message Number: 760280
  - Posted by: Lou from Middletown
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:11:31 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Canarsie Line (from prev. posts) posted by Peter Rosa on December 05, 1997 at 09:24:53: Another reason for relatively slow service is that the line itself is afairly slow running line due the many twists and turns it makes.The BMT solved (or TRIED to solve) this by developing the MS articulated trains, which could take these curves faster than a regular trainset. Just a thought!
    - Subject: Re: Canarsie Line (from prev. posts)
    - Message Number: 760285
    - Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
    - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:11:47 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: Canarsie Line (from prev. posts) posted by Lou from Middletown on December 06, 1997 at 10:13:12: >The BMT solved (or TRIED to solve) this by developing the MS articulated >trains, which could take these curves faster >than a regular trainset. Just a thought! Microsoft made a subway? :) -Hank
      - Subject: Re: Canarsie Line (from prev. posts)
      - Message Number: 760364
      - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
      - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:21:39 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Canarsie Line (from prev. posts) posted by Hank Eisenstein on December 06, 1997 at 13:12:39: I can see it now .... The Microsoft Subway, version 2.5 ... "Ladies and Gentlemen ... this train will be delayed 6 months due to extensive delays in our beta program. We will be moving shortly ..." I wouldn't wanna be the one to get a "loading, please wait" message on the MS subway! --Mark :)

Thread title: Hoboken-PABT Buses: NJT #126 Vs. Red Apple (760232)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:08:21 1997, by Michael S. Buglak

Subject: Hoboken-PABT Buses: NJT #126 Vs. Red Apple
Message Number: 760232
Posted by: Michael S. Buglak
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:08:21 1997

I've noticed on my trips to Hoboken that NJT & Red Apple Lines both run buses from there to Port Authority Bus Terminal in Manhattan. I would like to ride the Red Apple bus, but I can't seem to find any info about it other than that the fare is 1.25 & lower than NJT's 1.50 on its #126 bus. Do the two lines follow identical routings besides on Washington St. in Hoboken? Also, what is Red Apple's headway & do they still have any new-look Flxibles in their fleet? Any information would be much appreciated! Michael S. Buglak, Collegeville, PA
- Subject: Re: Hoboken-PABT Buses: NJT #126 Vs. Red Apple
- Message Number: 760242
- Posted by: Wayne Johnson
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:08:43 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Hoboken-PABT Buses: NJT #126 Vs. Red Apple posted by Michael S. Buglak on December 05, 1997 at 08:14:26: I've never seen any Red Apple bus schedules anywhere. Being that they are so small they probably don't have any printed materials for riders. I rode it twice a couple of years back with new look Flxibles. I know they have Grumman 870's now, but they may still have some new look Flxibles around. Also NJT actually lowered their fare to compete with Red Apple. We used to call it the Apple bus, but when I rode it the fare was $1 and I think NJT at the time was $1.90. Yes, they have an identical route from Hoboken Station to PABT via Washington Street. It was almost comical to see a nearly empty NJT #126 bus followed by a Red Apple bus with several passengers aboard.
  - Subject: Re: Hoboken-PABT Buses: NJT #126 Vs. Red Apple
  - Message Number: 760289
  - Posted by: Bootsy
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:11:57 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Hoboken-PABT Buses: NJT #126 Vs. Red Apple posted by Wayne Johnson on December 05, 1997 at 09:55:22: I have a printed-out timetable that I obtained through the mail. The Red Apple schedules are almost identical to NJT's - frequent service (every five minutes or so) during the rush hours, 10-15 minutes during the day, 20-30 minutes on weekends. Last time I rode it the fare was $1.25 and it leaves from gate 230 at the Port Authority.

Thread title: Moving Platform (760233)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:08:23 1997, by Arjan Kal

Subject: Moving Platform
Message Number: 760233
Posted by: Arjan Kal
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:08:23 1997

I'm searching for information about a moving platform edge. I've heard from a friend who visited New York that at some stations the platform edge can shift towards the train to fill the gap between the cars and the platform edge. Is there anyone who can tell me more about this system and its operation? I'm living in the Netherlands so I can't go searching for the system myself ! If there is anyone who could send me some photograps or other information about the system I would be thankfull. Kind regards Arjan Kal (5 december 1997)
- Subject: Moving Platform
- Message Number: 760234
- Posted by: Arjan Kal
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:08:25 1997
  
  I'm searching for information about a moving platform edge. I've heard from a friend who visited New York that at some stations the platform edge can shift towards the train to fill the gap between the cars and the platform edge. Is there anyone who can tell me more about this system and its operation? I'm living in the Netherlands so I can't go searching for the system myself ! If there is anyone who could send me some photograps or other information about the system I would be thankfull. Kind regards Arjan Kal (5 december 1997)
  - Subject: Re: Moving Platform
  - Message Number: 760244
  - Posted by: Charles Fiori
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:08:47 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Moving Platform posted by Arjan Kal on December 05, 1997 at 08:19:27: Don't know if the gap fillers are still there, but there used to be gap fillers at the Times Square end of the Grand Central shuttle. Up until fairly recently, a conductor had a paid job at which all he did was crank the gap fillers into position when the train arrived. It actually was a large "throw" switch, which he would have to squeeze and then throw over to make the gap fillers extend.
    - Subject: Re: Moving Platform
    - Message Number: 760248
    - Posted by: Todd Glickman
    - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:08:56 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: Moving Platform posted by Charles Fiori on December 05, 1997 at 10:45:24: Yes, the Times Square Shuttle gap filler is still there. It is now activated by the motorman by a push button at either end of the train (OPTO, you know!). There are two panels on each end, one for "IN" and one for "OUT".
      - Subject: Re: Moving Platform
      - Message Number: 760260
      - Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
      - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:10:01 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Moving Platform posted by Todd Glickman on December 05, 1997 at 10:57:33: They are not the same as at Union Sq, are they? Aren't they just wooden pieces about 6 inches below the platform that stick out so when you trip and fall, you won't land all the way down on the track? Or have I just by luck usually ridden on the one without moving platforms? Just unsure, that's all, and I don't want the guy in the Netherlands to be misinformed.
        
        Subject: Re: Moving Platform
        Message Number: 760268
        Posted by: Todd Glickman
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:10:52 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Moving Platform posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 05, 1997 at 16:11:18: They are only on the (let me think now) west end of one of the tracks... I think it is Track 1 - that which is closest to the transfer corridor.
        
        Subject: Re: Moving Platform
        Message Number: 760270
        Posted by: subway-buff
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:10:59 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Moving Platform posted by Todd Glickman on December 05, 1997 at 21:19:51: There are two kinds of platofrms. The Times Square shuttle are solid and udner the platform. Union Square *4/5/6) and South Ferry (1/9) have the slotted kind that are level with the platform. AT those stations ther is a a proximity sensor that tells the conductor how many cars will make the platform.. The platforms are now computerized. Source; Joe Cunningham at Curios of East side iRT tour.

Thread title: Re: Moving Platform "GAP FILLERS" (760238)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:08:33 1997, by Lou

Subject: Re: Moving Platform "GAP FILLERS"
Message Number: 760238
Posted by: Lou
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:08:33 1997

In Reply to: [6]Moving Platform posted by Arjan Kal on December 05, 1997 at 08:19:27: In the NYC subway system there are stations with moving platforms or gap fillers to get rid of the space between the car and platform edge. Two that come to mind are the South Ferry stop on the #1 and the downtown side of 4/5/6 trains at 14th Street. Both stations are built on curves so there is a large space between the car and the platform. I don't know much about the technical aspect of the gap fillers, they are medal grates that are extended to the car side. At south ferry it is a fairly large gap and as the patform of this filler is moved out it comes with chains and such. I think the south ferry is manualy operated by a person in the station. At 14th street it is a much smaller space between the car and platform, I don't frequent that station though.
- Subject: Re: Moving Platform "GAP FILLERS"
- Message Number: 760241
- Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:08:41 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: Moving Platform "GAP FILLERS" posted by Lou on December 05, 1997 at 09:07:00: We should explain that the moving platforms are only about 4-5 feet wide, just enough to match each train door. The station platform itself never moves, just a metal grating similar to a combed escalator step that juts out in front of each door after the train has stopped. When the train leaves, pressure from the train hitting them causes them to close (like an open CD player drawer when you push on it), I think. I don't think there are any others besides SB 14th St on the Lexington Avenue (4,5,6) and the South Ferry station on the Broadway local (1,9). Another way this was done on the old Lexington Ave. inner loop platform at South Ferry was to have a wall blocking access to the train along the entire platform and cutouts in the wall at each center door location to allow one to get on the train. Once the very old cars were taken out of service, nothing fit there anymore so it is only used as a looop to turn around #5 trains after Bowling Green.
  - Subject: Re: Moving Platform "GAP FILLERS"
  - Message Number: 760243
  - Posted by: Tim Speer
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:08:45 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: Moving Platform "GAP FILLERS" posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 05, 1997 at 09:49:44: What causes the platform extenders to retract is pressure of the train against rollers which are mounted in a sprung housing. I imagine once the roller is pushed in a certain amount, a proxy switch then causes the platform to retract.
    - Subject: Re: Moving Platform "GAP FILLERS"
    - Message Number: 760247
    - Posted by: Lou
    - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:08:53 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Moving Platform "GAP FILLERS" posted by Tim Speer on December 05, 1997 at 10:22:44: Just to add, both South Ferry and 14thSt Lex Ave have a signal the train operator can see to note the status of the fillers. As the gap filler is extended the light comes on, as the train leaves SLOWLY until the light goes out.. Also at south ferry, if you look at the wall across from the Conductor's point of veiw there is a box hanging with four or five lights all with a big 5 on them. Depending on how the train is position in relation to the gap fillers one of the 5's will light up (I assume the middle one would mean the best in the middle position). Maybe this light is telling the conductor that all the gap fillers are lined up right (only the first 5 cars fit in the station at south ferry).
      - Subject: Re: Moving Platform "GAP FILLERS"
      - Message Number: 760250
      - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
      - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:09:04 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Moving Platform "GAP FILLERS" posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 05, 1997 at 09:49:44: >> Another way this was done on the old Lexington Ave. inner loop platform >> at South Ferry was to have a wall blocking access to the train along the >> entire platform and cutouts in the wall at each center door location to >> allow one to get on the train. Once the very old cars were taken out of >> service, nothing fit there anymore so it is only used as a looop to turn >> around #5 trains after Bowling Green. The Bowling Green - South Ferry shuttle was discontinued around 1978 - I think R12/R14 series cars were used to service the shuttle. I think the cars were wired so that the center doors would not open. I never rode the shuttle so perhaps others who have can "fill in the gaps", so to speak. Also, the cutouts in the wall at South Ferry have more to do with the fact that the inner loop platform there was built behind the major retaining wall of the two track loop under Battery Park. Engineers felt that building a regular platform would compromise the integrity of the tunnel, so openings in the wall that would line up with the Lo-V end doors were punched through the wall, and the platform was built behind it. At City Hall, on the other hand, whose loop is just as sharp, cast iron fences were built with openings in them for the Gibbs Cars, Hi-Vs and Lo-V doors. The train would stop and the doors would hopefully line up with the openings. Careful examination of the City Hall Loop platform yields markings of where these fences were. (Lots of steel dust on the platform). The abandoned portion of the Brooklyn Bridge express platforms (IRT #4/5) at the south end of the station also have the same type of gap filler found at 14th Street. The SOuth Ferry outer loop platform was refusbished recently, so the gap fillers there are much newer. Anyone know if the abandoned Worth St platform had 'em, too? --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: Moving Platform "GAP FILLERS"
        Message Number: 760263
        Posted by: Adam
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:10:27 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Moving Platform "GAP FILLERS" posted by Mark S Feinman on December 05, 1997 at 12:51:12: Well, there is a Transit Museum tour of the Worth Street station this weekend so whomever goes on that tour, could you give us a full report, including whether there are gap fillers? P.S. Where is Worth Street located relative to current subway stations and on what line is it?

Thread title: Trolleys (760245)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:08:49 1997, by Louie

Subject: Trolleys
Message Number: 760245
Posted by: Louie
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:08:49 1997

Has there ever been a trolley run on Lexington Ave. in New York City

Thread title: Trolley System in New York City (760246)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:08:51 1997, by Louie

Subject: Trolley System in New York City
Message Number: 760246
Posted by: Louie
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:08:51 1997

Has there ever been a trolley run on Lexington Ave. in New York City?
- Subject: Re: Trolley System in New York City
- Message Number: 760269
- Posted by: louie
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:10:57 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Trolley System in New York City posted by Louie on December 05, 1997 at 10:50:41: Has there ever been a trolley line on Lexington Ave. in New York City
  - Subject: Re: Trolley System in New York City
  - Message Number: 760271
  - Posted by: Fernando Perez
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:11:02 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Trolley System in New York City posted by Louie on December 05, 1997 at 10:50:41: New York Railways aka The Green lines operated a trolley line on Lexington from 23 St to 131St. With a branch running off of 116St to Lenox Av and then North on Lenox Av. to 146 St. They also had a car barn on 99St and Lexington which is today 100St depot.
    - Subject: Re: Trolley System in New York City
    - Message Number: 760309
    - Posted by: Louie Miranda
    - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:12:53 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: Trolley System in New York City posted by Fernando Perez on December 05, 1997 at 22:58:14: Dear Fernando: I am most appreciative of the information you have supplied to me. Many of my fathers' associates and some of his children were trying to tell him that the Green Line never existed. So again, I give you my thanks and also in behalf of my father. If you would be so kind as to let me know how you attained this information I will be most thankful to you. Take care Fernando
      - Subject: Re: Trolley System in New York City
      - Message Number: 760323
      - Posted by: Fernando Perez
      - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:13:29 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Trolley System in New York City posted by Louie Miranda on December 07, 1997 at 07:32:51: I am a transit buff like everyone else who comes to this BBS. However because I work for Mabstoa/NYCTA as a bus operator I have a deep interest in the trolley system because many of Mabstoa lines are inherited from the Green lines and Third Avenue railway trolley systems. In fact many of the bus depots are former trolley barns including Fresh Pond in Queens. Two books explain in detail these two trolley systems including pictures of the depots and track maps. The books are: 1. Third Avenue Railway System by NJ International, Inc ISBN#0934088349 2. New York Railways-The Green Line Same as above ISBN#0934088306 I purchased my books at the Bradford trolley Museum at East Haven Connecticut but maybe you can buy them over the internet through a online book purchasing service.

Thread title: No to Boeing!! (was: Re: Questions on subway engineering??) (760251)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:09:07 1997, by Mark S Feinman

Subject: No to Boeing!! (was: Re: Questions on subway engineering??)
Message Number: 760251
Posted by: Mark S Feinman
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:09:07 1997

In Reply to: [7]Re: Questions on subway engineering?? posted by Lefty on December 05, 1997 at 08:08:48: No! Don't use Boeing as an example. Their LRVs were some of the worst mankind has ever had to deal with. Boston and San Francisco got them in the 70s (I think) and they were nothing but trouble from day 1. San Francisco still has occasional runaways when they MU them together. They're prone to breakdowns. Some never ran at all and were stripped of parts to enable the others to continue running. Boeing may make great airplanes but they are not the leaders on the rapid transit business (They also built the Chicago CTA 2400 or 2600 series which fared better) or LRVs. They tried this in the 70s when airplane orders dropped significantly as an alternate source of income and a possible venture into new business. It didn't work out. Some of the more popular manufacturers of LRVs are Siemens-Duewag (San Diego Trolley, St Louis Metrolink), Kinki-Sharyo (Buffalo, Boston Type-7s) and Kawasaki (Philadelphia ex-Red Arrow Lines Media and Sharon Hill). There are others to be sure. --Mark

Thread title: SEPTA's Market-Frankford Line Reconstruction (760252)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:09:17 1997, by Timothy

Subject: SEPTA's Market-Frankford Line Reconstruction
Message Number: 760252
Posted by: Timothy
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:09:17 1997

When reconstruction of the Market-Frankford Line's West Philadelphia el structure begins, I've heard that they are going to demolish the entire el structure, and build a completely new one. Can anyone confirm this with me? If that is true, Does that mean that none of the existing el structure and/or its stations are going to be saved? I know that the stations in West Philadelphia were rehabilitated, and modernized in the 1980's, and I feel that it would be stupid to tear them down. I just hope they will save at least part of the West Philly el, as they did with the Frankford el. Also, Does anyone know when the new Market-Frankford Line trains are going to be put into regular service? Thanks.
- Subject: Re: SEPTA's Market-Frankford Line Reconstruction
- Message Number: 760257
- Posted by: bill
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:09:41 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]SEPTA's Market-Frankford Line Reconstruction posted by Timothy on December 05, 1997 at 13:03:13: YES! IT IS TRUE! SEPTA ANNOUNCED IN AN ISSUE OF THE WEST PHILADELPHIA VOICE THAT THE MARKET STREET EL WILL BE DEMOLISHED FROM 46TH ST. TO MILLBOURNE. THE NEW ELEVATED SUPERSTRUCTURE WILL HAVE SINGLE COLUMN SUPPORTS INSTEAD OF THE CURRENT DOUBLE ONES. ALL OF THE STATIONS WILL BE MODERNIZED AND AS TO YOUR QUESTION REGARDING THE TIME WHEN THE NEW EL CARS WILL BEGIN USE, YOUR GUESS IS AS GOOD AS MINE. I HAVE HEARD ESTIMATES FROM THE END OF 1997 TO WHEN THE EL WILL BE REBUILT ENTIRELY, IN 2004( MY EYES BUGGED OUT WHEN I SAW THAT YEAR TOO.) I HAVE RODE ON IT 3 TIMES AND CAN UNDERSTAND YOUR EAGERNESS TO SEE THEM IN FULL CIRCULATION. THE TRAINS HAVE NOT BEEN REPLACED SINCE 1961! EVEN NEW YORK HAS GOTTEN NEW TRAINS( ABOUT 4 SETS) SINCE THEN. I HAVE ALSO HEARD THROUGH SOME OTHER SEPTA LITERATURE THAT AFTERWARDS THE SEPTA TUNNELS( INCLUDING THE BROAD STREET SUBWAY) WILL RE-EXPERIENCE THIER SALAD DAYS. BUT DONT LOOK FOR NEW CARS THERE FOR A WHILE. SO TO END LET ME LEAVE YOU WITH THIS. WOULDN'T IT BE NICE IF SEPTA EXTENDED THE RIDGE AVENUE SUBWAY ALL THE WAY UP RIDGE AVENUE THROUGH MANYUNK AND ROXBOROUGH. THAT WOULD BE NICE. SO I HOPE YOU CAN SET YOUR MIND AT EASE
  - Subject: Re: SEPTA's Market-Frankford Line Reconstruction
  - Message Number: 760292
  - Posted by: Bobw
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:12:06 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: SEPTA's Market-Frankford Line Reconstruction posted by bill on December 05, 1997 at 15:44:07: Yes, the previous post just about says it all. I would add the following. The new M-4 cars SHOULD be in service by early '99 according to the current projections. One 6-car train is in revenue service during midday periods on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday. A new married pair (even though they can be disconnected, this is what they're being called!) arrived late in November, and three 6-car sets are supposed to be ready for service by New Years. One note I would make is that the stations, apart from 60th St, were not extensively rehabbed in the 80's. 60th St was completely rebuilt in the mid-70's and is slated to get rebuilt again when the others get it. The stations were relighted, repainted, etc but there are many of the original aspects still there. One significant change is that the stations will all get separate entry buildings (like Frankford), so no more stairways right up from the sidewalk. The project will take a while to complete since work will be done on weekends and the El will be back in service on weekdays. This is also similar to Frankford.

Thread title: Any Els In London? (760253)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:09:24 1997, by Timothy

Subject: Any Els In London?
Message Number: 760253
Posted by: Timothy
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:09:24 1997

Can anyone tell me if any part of London's subway system runs on elevated structure? Also, Do Paris, and other European cities with large rapid transit systems have elevateds, similar to New York's, and Chicago's els?
- Subject: Re: Any Els In London?
- Message Number: 760256
- Posted by: Walter
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:09:38 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Any Els In London? posted by Timothy on December 05, 1997 at 13:11:55: I don't know about London, but bits and pieces of subway lines in Paris run overground on el structures, mostly when they cross the Seine or some other natural obstruction to subway tunneling. The Berlin subway/el system, though, was first built (1902) as an el (Warschauer Bruecke to Knie, I think) with the last couple of stations in a subway, because the people living in the fancy suburbs (Charlottenburg, which was not yet part of the city of Berlin) didn't want els running through their neighborhoods.
  - Subject: Re: Any Els In London?
  - Message Number: 760259
  - Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:09:54 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Any Els In London? posted by Timothy on December 05, 1997 at 13:11:55: Paris has a large number of elevated lines. Without looking at the map, I can tell you that the western 1/3 and the eastern 1/3 of Line 6 on the Left bank is elevated, just like on White Plains Road, Roosevelt Avenue, or New Utrecht Ave, as is some of Paris line 2, some of line 5 and others. Some are rubber tire type, some are plain metal wheels. Vienna has an elevated line U6, which used to be left-hand running using ancient tram cars and called the Stadtbahn (unrelated to German S-bahn type lines), but now is right-hand running as a U-bahn. It runs over a street with apartment houses and stores. It reminded me a lot of Jerome Avenue and Roosevelt Avenue. Hamburg has elevated and open cut lines, one elevated running right along a river in the port area, others running over streets. Frankfurt has one high-platform line (U-1,2,3 combined) running in the center of the street on PRW except at intersections. To get on the train, you used to have to go below ground from the sidewalk and then come up onto the platform. Now I think they have stairs right from the crosswalk. A lot of the outdoor lines in London are on PRW, like the Brighton Line in Brooklyn. Mostly only the lines inside the Circle line are underground. Many of the London Underground line outdoor tracks can be and are shared with British rail trains, like the train to Kew Garden and Richmond, and the BakerLoo to Queens Park. Philadelphia has one line with 4 track express service, almost all underground (standard gauge, trains the size of BMT-IND), and one line that is all elevated except for from 2nd to 46 St.(wide gauge, trains the size of IRT).
    - Subject: Re: Any Els In London?
    - Message Number: 760387
    - Posted by: Sergiy Pakhomov
    - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:22:42 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Any Els In London? posted by Timothy on December 05, 1997 at 13:11:55: It was obvious to let the trains running over the els in Europe. In Berlin it was, for example, not only the line between Cotbusser Tor (1902) (Cotbusser Bahnhof, later; Schleswiger Tor, now) and the city, but it is the line 2 north to the Alexanderplatz. I am not sure that there are several lines more which can be inderstanding as elevated. Look on the S lines (1 to 9) - are not they the els really? For anybody who want to study the London tube / subsurface line I strongly recommend the following entry: http://www.gold.net/~cdwf/rail/culg/ This is the Clive Underground page where the layout of the abandoned metro stations and tracks is shown. There are also the tube mouths also that you are being helped for your "studies" of the els/tubes in London. Best wishes.
      - Subject: Re: Any Els In London?
      - Message Number: 760578
      - Posted by: Nathan
      - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:38:55 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Any Els In London? posted by Timothy on December 05, 1997 at 13:11:55: Don't forget the DLR. True, it is not heavy rail but it runs almost entirely on an elevated structure- the Beckton extension seems more like a roller coaster swinging above motorways and below BR Lines.

Thread title: Walking Tour: "A Train Buffs History Tour", Sponsored by the 92nd St 'Y' (760254)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:09:28 1997, by Mark S Feinman

Subject: Walking Tour: "A Train Buffs History Tour", Sponsored by the 92nd St 'Y'
Message Number: 760254
Posted by: Mark S Feinman
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:09:28 1997

Saw this in today's (12/5) New York Times in the "Spare Times" section, page E-39, under "Walking Tours". Quoting: "A Train Buff's History Tour". A tour that includes a trip along the J line, New York's oldest subway route. The tour concludes with a visit to the LIRR West Side Yard. Sunday at 10am. Fee: $20.00, not including subway fares. Sponsored by the 92nd St Y. Meeting place and reservations: (212) 996-1100. I know parts of the J line elevated structure date back to the 1890s but is this really the oldest subway route in NY? --Mark
- Subject: Re: Walking Tour: "A Train Buffs History Tour", Sponsored by the 92nd St 'Y'
- Message Number: 760281
- Posted by: Lou from Middletown
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:11:36 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Walking Tour: "A Train Buffs History Tour", Sponsored by the 92nd St 'Y' posted by Mark S Feinman on December 05, 1997 at 13:38:31: The part of the elevated structure around Alabama Ave is the original elevated structure from the late 1890's. I believe that it was not even rebuilt during the Dual Contracts constuction of the 1910's-20's.But this will have to be answered by someone else!!
  - Subject: Re: Walking Tour: "A Train Buffs History Tour", Sponsored by the 92nd St 'Y'
  - Message Number: 760310
  - Posted by: Mike K
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:12:55 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Walking Tour: "A Train Buffs History Tour", Sponsored by the 92nd St 'Y' posted by Mark S Feinman on December 05, 1997 at 13:38:31: I believe portions of the Franklin Avenue Shuttle may be older. The old Brighton Beach railroad began service in 1878, and was later extended to Franklin Avenue. This was in place before the turn of the century. Of course, the Brighton Beach railroad later became the Brighton Beach line, now used by the D/Q.
    - Subject: Re: Walking Tour: "A Train Buffs History Tour", Sponsored by the 92nd St 'Y'
    - Message Number: 760365
    - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
    - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:21:41 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Walking Tour: "A Train Buffs History Tour", Sponsored by the 92nd St 'Y' posted by Mark S Feinman on December 05, 1997 at 13:38:31: The franklin Ave shuttle was substantially rebuilt when it was extended from Atlantic Avenue to Fulton St. I don't think any of it was elevated before then, which was just before the turn of the last century. The J/Z stretch on Fulton St., East of Broadway Junction, seems to date from 1885 to a point past Alabama Ave, possibly a station in the area of Van Siclen, which was rebuilt in the Dual Contracts era.(1922?)The rest of the line up to the end of the Crescent St. run was built piecemeal prior to 1893.When the Downtown Brooklyn section of the Myrtle Avenue line was torn down, the Alababa Ave vicinity on Fulton became the oldest El still in use.

Thread title: Re: Some ideas on extending the subway-Cost savings poss.! (760255)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:09:32 1997, by Charles Fiori

Subject: Re: Some ideas on extending the subway-Cost savings poss.!
Message Number: 760255
Posted by: Charles Fiori
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:09:32 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Some ideas on extending the subway (as crazy as they may be!)(long post) posted by Mike K on December 03, 1997 at 23:07:50: Advantages of a one directional loop is that you would only have to paint and clean one side of the cars' exterior!!! I think in Glasgow or someplace like that, such a procedure is actually followed.

Thread title: fond lost subway tunnel (760261)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:10:09 1997, by Serafin Jr

Subject: fond lost subway tunnel
Message Number: 760261
Posted by: Serafin Jr
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:10:09 1997

If anyone has any intersting story on walking the rails (Finding lost subway tunnel) please post on what and how you got there. I know there many storys out there.
- Subject: fond lost subway tunnel
- Message Number: 760262
- Posted by: Serafin Jr
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:10:20 1997
  
  If anyone has any intersting story on walking the rails (Finding lost subway tunnel) please post on what and how you got there. I know there many storys out there.
  - Subject: Re: fond lost subway tunnel
  - Message Number: 760336
  - Posted by: Ron Rice
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:14:01 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]fond lost subway tunnel posted by Serafin Jr on December 05, 1997 at 16:12:24: Interesting possible site to view. However, please change "fond" to "found" and "storys" to "stories". Yep, even web readers tend to some aversion to mis-spellings. Best of luck, and thanks for making my browsing worth while. Ron Rice TRM4582

Thread title: train being scraped (760264)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:10:31 1997, by Jr

Subject: train being scraped
Message Number: 760264
Posted by: Jr
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:10:31 1997

There are about a doz of M-1 laying off its tracks on the Sunny side Yard. If you take the uptown 7 train from queenplaza and look east as you past over the yard you will see the M-1. Sad to look at. I can not see the MTA putting money to fix them. Look like it they service on the D line in the bronx if it was possible. (Not dissing the Bronx I live there.)
- Subject: Re: train being scraped
- Message Number: 760275
- Posted by: Tim Speer
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:11:16 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]train being scraped posted by Jr on December 05, 1997 at 16:21:11: Not possible -- M1's can't run on the IND... they're too long, among other things! Nothing wrong with The Bronx, my friend!

Thread title: O-27 Subway Car? (760265)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:10:38 1997, by Pat Villani

Subject: O-27 Subway Car?
Message Number: 760265
Posted by: Pat Villani
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:10:38 1997

Sorry for the potentially repeated post -- I can't seem to be able to access the archives. Anybody know of a Lionel-type NYC subway cars? I seem to remember this coming up a short time ago and I'd like to include the reference on my web site: http://www.iop.com/~patv/railroad.html. Who knows, maybe I'll buy one ;-)
- Subject: Re: O-27 Subway Car?
- Message Number: 760291
- Posted by: Frank Gatazka
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:12:04 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]O-27 Subway Car? posted by Pat Villani on December 05, 1997 at 16:21:20: Mikes Train House (MTH) lists a "NY City Transit Set" in their latest catalog as part of their "RailKing" line. The catalog illustration is a rendering, not photography. The cars appear to be modeled after the R-44/R-46 and are available in four car sets. The retail price for a four car set with horn only is $199. With "ProtoSounds" which includes squeeling wheels/brakes/station announcements etc., the price is $299. The cars appear accurate except for one glaring error. The cars have only three doors per side, and are for-shortened. No doubt to negotiate the tight tinplate track radius. The color scheme as printed in the catalog is not correct, but MTH assures me that it will be accurate in production. They will be lighted and have complete interiors. Marx Trains has a true tinplate ("six inch tin") model of a CTA elevated train that is loosely based on the 6000 series that used to run in Chicago. Their set No. 5777, "CTA Elevated Train", features "Lectra Sounds" (chimes, whistle, eight different station announcements) and costs $389.95 for three cars (again I said based loosely on the 6000's) plus 12 "track elevators" or stamped tin El bents. Also available is additional El bents and a girder bridge with a CTA logo. The cars are lithographed in the famous CTA Mercury Green, Croydon Chream and Swamp Holly Orange color scheme. The lead car features a working headlight. Funally, Kalmbach has a new book out by Dr. Peter Riddle on building easy Lionel and other 027 layouts. Several of the layouts feature track plans for incorporating an Elevated line.
  - Subject: Re: O-27 Subway Car?
  - Message Number: 760403
  - Posted by: Quigebo
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:23:31 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: O-27 Subway Car? posted by Frank Gatazka on December 06, 1997 at 16:23:42: Man, I gotta see these R44/46 cars. How do I get a catalog from Mike's Train House. What's their mailing address?
    - Subject: Re: O-27 Subway Car?
    - Message Number: 760412
    - Posted by: Frank Gatazka
    - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:23:53 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: O-27 Subway Car? posted by Quigebo on December 09, 1997 at 18:21:52: You can reach M.T.H. Electric Trains at 1-888-640-3700. Their Web site is: www.mth-railking.com. Their address is: MTH Electric Trains, 9693 Gerwig Lane, Columbia, MD 21046. Good Luck!
      - Subject: Re: O-27 Subway Car?
      - Message Number: 760438
      - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
      - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:24:49 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: O-27 Subway Car? posted by Frank Gatazka on December 10, 1997 at 07:22:08: Frank, are you sure about that website URL? I can't get it to work. Has MTH run an ad in MR or CTT for this item yet?
        
        Subject: Re: O-27 Subway Car?
        Message Number: 760448
        Posted by: wsteil
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:25:26 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: O-27 Subway Car? posted by Gary Jacobi on December 10, 1997 at 13:53:13: The URL worked for me. This is what URL comes when on their home page: http://www.mth-railking.com/index2.html

Thread title: Worth Street (was Re: Moving Platform "GAP FILLERS") (760266)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:10:42 1997, by Peter Rosa

Subject: Worth Street (was Re: Moving Platform "GAP FILLERS")
Message Number: 760266
Posted by: Peter Rosa
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:10:42 1997

In Reply to: [7]Re: Moving Platform "GAP FILLERS" posted by Adam on December 05, 1997 at 16:13:33: The Worth Street station is on the 6 line, not too far north of Brooklyn Bridge station. You can dimly see it from a 6 train, or from a 4 or 5 if there's no 6 in the way, though it's pretty dark.
- Subject: Re: Worth Street (was Re: Moving Platform "GAP FILLERS")
- Message Number: 760363
- Posted by: Mark S Feinman
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:21:38 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Worth Street (was Re: Moving Platform "GAP FILLERS") posted by Peter Rosa on December 05, 1997 at 16:42:28: The northbound (uptown) #6 Worth St platform is still in its "original" state when built - that is, about 5 IRT cars long. The southbound #6 platform was lengthened to accomodate 10 (11?) IRT cars before it was closed. --Mark

Thread title: What's Your Daily Commute? (760272)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:11:11 1997, by GAR

Subject: What's Your Daily Commute?
Message Number: 760272
Posted by: GAR
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:11:11 1997

I thought I would post my daily commute for the subtalk readers and see if anyone was interested..... I currently use mass transit daily, taking Metra's BNSF route from Aurora IL to Union Station Chicago; walk across to Northwestern Station then take the UP North Line to Evanston. Occasionally CTA's Evanston Express from Evanston to the Loop going home (longer trip time/ higher train frequency than the UP) It's about a 2 hour trip time (drive is about the same) but I would certainly benefit from the proposed EJ&E commuter rail route.... On a scale of 1 to 10 I would rate the BNSF a 10 (clean & fast) the UP 4 (always late on a line w/o freight traffic) and CTA a 7 (high train freq./express svc) I wonder how many of the subtallk readers use mass transit in their daily commute.....
- Subject: Re: What's Your Daily Commute?
- Message Number: 760274
- Posted by: Tim Speer
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:11:14 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]What's Your Daily Commute? posted by GAR on December 05, 1997 at 23:45:51: I live in Boston and take the Orange line on the "T" from Forest Hills to the Chinatown station, walk 6 blocks to South Station, and catch the MBTA commuter rail train to Hanson, which is out on the South Shore. It takes me longer than driving, but the reduced stress, plus the fact that I love trains, makes it all worthwhile. An added plus is that the monthly pass ($112.00) costs less than I used to spend in gas, and included in that price is unlimited use of all subway and bus lines in Boston!
  - Subject: Re: What's Your Daily Commute?
  - Message Number: 760282
  - Posted by: Sammy
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:11:39 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: What's Your Daily Commute? posted by Tim Speer on December 06, 1997 at 00:00:35: For me, its pretty involved because of the location and times I travel. Hop on the G train at Nassau Avenue and take a long tunnel walk to 21/st Ely Ave (which if the trains still went to Queens Plaza, this would be eliminated and easier, and safety [i.e. walking the tunnel late at night] wouldn't be a concern) and take the E or F to Lex Avenue. get out at Third Ave. side and walk 6 blocks to work. -or- Walk 12 blocks to the Canarsie Line (L) at Graham Avenue, Get off at Union Sq. and take any Lexington Avenue line to Grand Central and walk 5 blocks. Failing that, I could take the Canarsie Line to Sixth Ave, take the F to 47th Street and walk two blocks. total travel time at nbight is 45 minutes as opposed to twenty minutes door to door during the day.
    - Subject: Re: What's Your Daily Commute?
    - Message Number: 760294
    - Posted by: Todd Glickman
    - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:12:11 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]What's Your Daily Commute? posted by GAR on December 05, 1997 at 23:45:51: Well, the commute following isn't daily, but I do it a number of times a month. I live in suburban Boston, and work at WCBS Newsradio-88 every couple of weekends: I drive to downtown Boston, and park at my (weekeday) office there to save $18/day in airport parking charges. The the Green Line from Park Street to Government Center. Then the Blue Line from Government Center to Airport. Then the #22 connector bus to Terminal A at Boston's Logan Airport. Then the USAirways Shuttle from there to LaGuardia. Then the Q-33 from LGA to Roosevelt Ave. Then the E or F to 5th/53rd. [Though sometimes if the M-60 comes first at LGA I take it to Astoria Blvd. and then the N to 7th/57th.] Now there's a commute!! But I agree with Tim regarding the Boston MBTA commuter rail pass. I live in Zone 2, which is $72 per month. Since I have a mail subscription, I get 12 for the price of 11. And $75 off my car insurance every year. And all of the buses and subways I can ride all month. And 2 for 1 on all mass transit every Sunday. As we say in NY, "Suchadeal!"
      - Subject: Re: What's Your Daily Commute?
      - Message Number: 760295
      - Posted by: Steve
      - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:12:13 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]What's Your Daily Commute? posted by GAR on December 05, 1997 at 23:45:51: My Daily Commute? Well, here's a typical commute: LIRR 5:39 AM Brentwood to Penn Station (arrive 6:38AM). 8th Ave Subway uptown A to 125th St, transfer to C or D to Bedford park. (or variations on the above)
        
        Subject: Re: What's Your Daily Commute?
        Message Number: 760296
        Posted by: David Lee
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:12:15 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]What's Your Daily Commute? posted by GAR on December 05, 1997 at 23:45:51: My daily commute is quite simple: G train from Grand Avenue-Newtown to Fulton Street-Brooklyn.
        
        Subject: Re: What's Your Daily Commute?
        Message Number: 760298
        Posted by: Peter Rosa
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:12:22 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]What's Your Daily Commute? posted by GAR on December 05, 1997 at 23:45:51: Here's mine: LIRR 6:41 from Medford, change at Ronkonkoma to the 6:57 to Brooklyn, change at Jamaica for the next train to Penn Station, arrive at Penn Station ~8:30. Then 7th Avenue express subway (2 or 3) to 14th Street, walk east 2 blocks to 5th Avenue/14th Street. In the evenings, I usually walk to Penn Station, for the 5:41 to Ronkonkoma, changing to the Greenport shuttle, arriving Medford at 7:05. Sometimes I instead go from Patchogue (longer trip but more flexible scheudle and less crowded trains), taking the 6:53 with a change at Jamaica, arriving Penn at about 8:40. Return is via the 5:51 to Far Rockaway, changing at Jamaica for the Montauk express, arriving in Patchogue at 6:25. Medford and Patchogue are in the same fare zones, with interchangeble tickets.
        
        Subject: Re: What's Your Daily Commute?
        Message Number: 760303
        Posted by: Wayne Johnson
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:12:39 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: What's Your Daily Commute? posted by Sammy on December 06, 1997 at 10:58:44: WMATA Red line from Silver Spring, MD (Approx 7:50 AM) to Union Station. Travel time: 15-25 minutes. Before I moved from NYC - It was D train at Tremont Avenue (Approx. 8 AM), Change at 7 Ave for the E to Jamaica center. Travel time 60-75 min.
        
        Subject: Re: What's Your Daily Commute?
        Message Number: 760307
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:12:48 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: What's Your Daily Commute? posted by David Lee on December 06, 1997 at 18:40:07: Brooklyn Tech?
        
        Subject: Re: What's Your Daily Commute?
        Message Number: 760312
        Posted by: Mark Greenwald
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:12:59 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]What's Your Daily Commute? posted by GAR on December 05, 1997 at 23:45:51: I debated on doing this, but, I figured, what the heck. Even thought I don't use mass transit TODAY (I used to commute daily on the Baltimore Metro & Light Rail) I figured my commuting pattern today would at least be good for "shits & giggles". Keep in mind, I live in the overpopulated state of West Virginia...........From Fort Ashby, (Mineral County (I love that name)), I drive WV Route 28 south to "the plant" in Moorefield (Hardy County). The whole drive takes about 50 mins. The real challenge is in the following: 1) dear--working the "graveyard shift", avoiding the ensuing dear population is a REAL challenge. I thought changing lanes on the Capitol Beltway was bad, this is a trip. 2) Dear hunters---dear season or not, this IS West Virginia...It gets really bad this time of year when dear season is in effect & you get hunters from Baltimore & DC. 3) The roads, or the condition thereof. It's not bad enough to throw the twists & turns in, but, have they ever heard of guardrails? It can be a bit nerve racking---especially in winter. All in all, it is safe to say that whether you live in the city or sticks, each commuting pattern, be it by rail or road, can be a real challenge at times. I hope y'all don't mind this post--I fugured you'd get a good laugh. "Welcome to my Nightmare"
        
        Subject: Re: What's Your Daily Commute?
        Message Number: 760321
        Posted by: David L.
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:13:25 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: What's Your Daily Commute? posted by Steve on December 07, 1997 at 00:18:46: Yes- Brooklyn Tech. Class of '99- Bio-Chem Major(and I regret joining this major)
        
        Subject: Re: What's Your Daily Commute?
        Message Number: 760330
        Posted by: Droo
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:13:50 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: What's Your Daily Commute? posted by David Lee on December 06, 1997 at 18:40:07: Hey... did you go to Hunter...years ago?
        
        Subject: Re: What's Your Daily Commute?
        Message Number: 760333
        Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:13:56 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]What's Your Daily Commute? posted by GAR on December 05, 1997 at 23:45:51: He he. My DAILY one is EASY. I just kick myself out of bed at 10:30 am and walk accross campus :) Getting home is a taxi to Union Station (Hartford, there sure are a lot of Union Stations out there...). And then Slamtrak to Penn. Or Slamtrak or a bus to New Haven and Metro North down to GCT. From Penn, it's the Port Washington line out home. I won't subject myself to Oyster bay.
        
        Subject: Re: What's Your Daily Commute?
        Message Number: 760345
        Posted by: Lou from Brooklyn
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:20:48 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]What's Your Daily Commute? posted by GAR on December 05, 1997 at 23:45:51: D/Q (most times Q) from Kings Highway, catch the F when I see it or switch at 42nd Street (This allows option to IRT 7 incase the "F"orever don't show)to Queens Plaza (7 to Queensboro Plaza). Sometimes on the way home I'll walk over to 21st Street Queens Bridge to ride the head car on the Q now that they have the 40's....
        
        Subject: Re: What's Your Daily Commute?
        Message Number: 760352
        Posted by: Ed Sachs
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:21:06 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]What's Your Daily Commute? posted by GAR on December 05, 1997 at 23:45:51: My daily commute is Elmhurst to Chicago (Richard Ogilivie Transportation Center, formerly Metra Passenger Terminal, formerly Northwestern Station) on the Metra UP West line. I'd rate it about 9 out of 10. Trains occasionally late due to freight interference, but not very often in rush hours (UP and Metra seem to have finally gotten their acts together on this). It's faster and cheaper than driving, plenty of parking at Elmhurst Metra station (not generally true of all Metra stations), and plenty of trains from Elmhurst (as it is the turn around for short-trippers). Also, very convenient to my office, which is in the Citicorp Center building, which is the same building as the train station (the one formerly known as Northwestern Station).
        
        Subject: Re: What's Your Daily Commute?
        Message Number: 760355
        Posted by: Ed Sachs
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:21:18 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]What's Your Daily Commute? posted by GAR on December 05, 1997 at 23:45:51: My daily commute is Elmhurst to Chicago (Richard Ogilivie Transportation Center, formerly Metra Passenger Terminal, formerly Northwestern Station) on the Metra UP West line. I'd rate it about 9 out of 10. Trains occasionally late due to freight interference, but not very often in rush hours (UP and Metra seem to have finally gotten their acts together on this). It's faster and cheaper than driving, plenty of parking at Elmhurst Metra station (not generally true of all Metra stations), and plenty of trains from Elmhurst (as it is the turn around for short-trippers). Also, very convenient to my office, which is in the Citicorp Center building, which is the same building as the train station (the one formerly known as Northwestern Station).
        
        Subject: Re: What's Your Daily Commute?
        Message Number: 760356
        Posted by: Charles Fiori
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:21:20 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]What's Your Daily Commute? posted by GAR on December 05, 1997 at 23:45:51: When I drive (which I may do if I want to get in real early), I take Lake Ave West to the Edens Expwy (I-94). Edens south to the loop, exiting at Ohio Street, then Michigan Ave south to Lake Street and Lake Street east to dest. When I "Metra" it, the 5:42am UP-North Line local, then the 5:07 express home in the aft. Metra service is pretty decent, rarely late and fairly clean. The new handicapped accessible cab cars are quite comfortable. When I lived on Roosevelt Island, pre-63 st. opening., I would take the Tramway over to 59-2Av, then walk a block to the BMT. N or R over to TSQ, then 7 Av up to Columbia. Could also take M-103 over to 8 Av and then the M-104 up Broadway. When I worked downtown, it was the Lex Express to Bowling Green or the BMT to Whitehall
        
        Subject: Re: What's Your Daily Commute?
        Message Number: 760357
        Posted by: Brian Wolk
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:21:22 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]What's Your Daily Commute? posted by GAR on December 05, 1997 at 23:45:51: I live in Toronto and I take a TTC bus to Finch, take the subway south to Bloor/Yonge station, transfer to the Bloor line westbound to Spadina station, and take the new Spadina LRT south to University of Toronto. There you have it: bus, subway, streetcar, all in one trip! I'd rate the TTC bus system 5 out of 10 because of those crappy Orion 5 buses. The subway gets a 7 for being pretty roomy and efficient. And the streetcar system gets a 4 because of the overcrowding and lack of even spacing out of cars.
        
        Subject: Re: What's Your Daily Commute?
        Message Number: 760360
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:21:31 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]What's Your Daily Commute? posted by GAR on December 05, 1997 at 23:45:51: Sadly, I don't have a viable mass transit option. Everyday, it's the New York State Thruway to Exit 17 - Newburgh, then I-84 East to Fishkill, NY. 45 - 50 minutes each way. BUT, it is a reverse commute and there's hardly ever any traffic. --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: What's Your Daily Commute?
        Message Number: 760370
        Posted by: Lefty
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:21:51 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]What's Your Daily Commute? posted by GAR on December 05, 1997 at 23:45:51: i take the NYCTA Bx10 bus every day from w231st st and riverdale ave (the west end of the Bx1 line) to 205th St. and Paul Ave. (The Bronx High School of Science) takes anywhere from 15 to 25 minutes depending on how many people are on the bus and which one i catch. service is eh about every 15 minutes.. not really enough for a morning rush hour. on the way back they send a special empty Bx10 back towards riverdale just for my school, yay.
        
        Subject: Re: What's Your Daily Commute?
        Message Number: 760374
        Posted by: Jeffrey from Brooklyn
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:22:03 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: What's Your Daily Commute? posted by Lou from Brooklyn on December 08, 1997 at 11:00:19: Yay....another Q rider. I take the Q (but sometimes the D of course) from Kings Highway to Atlantic Ave. where I go upstairs to get the 2 or 3 to Fulton st. Takes about 40 minutes on average. When it runs right, I give the Q high marks for speed. The 2/3 usually is quite crowded by the time it reaches Atlantic, and the LIRR connection just makes it all the more difficult. P.S.: Does anybody know why intercoms are left open on the Q? It really aggrevates me sometimes.
        
        Subject: Re: What's Your Daily Commute?
        Message Number: 760394
        Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:23:01 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]What's Your Daily Commute? posted by GAR on December 05, 1997 at 23:45:51: Because I live in a Northern Washington Suburb, and work in a southern Baltimore Suburb, I drive. However, when I lived in Brooklyn, I worked in Flushing, near the cemetery where Louis Armstrong is buried (the whole company watched the funeral procession go by). I took the Brighton line (6th Avenue) to 42 St, the F train to Roosevelt Avenue, the #7 to Main Street, and the 16, 17, or 65 bus to the edge of the Flushing Cemetery. The factory was down the block. 90 minutes each way. I read 35 books during that summer. Because it was such a long commute, I had lots of variations, the most different being: Brighton to Prospect Park, Franklin Shuttle to Franklin Avenue, 8th Avenue to Bway-East NY, the Jamaica line to 160 St. (the old elevated before being torn down), then the #65 up to Flushing. And my family wonders why I am some comfortable with and knowledgeable about trains....
        
        Subject: Re: What's Your Daily Commute?
        Message Number: 760409
        Posted by: Daniel A. Valles
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:23:47 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]What's Your Daily Commute? posted by GAR on December 05, 1997 at 23:45:51: My commute is boring... I live in Bayonne... I take the South Blvd. bus to Journal Square, take the WTC-bound Path train to WTC, walk a couple of blocks, and I'm at Pace University... HOW BORING!!!!!!
        
        Subject: Re: What's Your Daily Commute?
        Message Number: 760555
        Posted by: Peter Rosa
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:37:59 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: What's Your Daily Commute? posted by Daniel A. Valles on December 09, 1997 at 21:10:38: Your daily commute doesn't sounds so boring. Look at it this way, you're crossing a state line and using two separate modes of public transit, bus and subway (treating PATH as a subway). Not all that many people in the United States can say the same.
        
        Subject: Re: What's Your Daily Commute?
        Message Number: 760558
        Posted by: charlie muller
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:38:09 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: What's Your Daily Commute? posted by Wayne Johnson on December 06, 1997 at 23:28:03: downtown d train at 10:35 pm from bedford park blvd to 47th-50th street rockefeller center in which i get to at about 11:10 pm. 35 minute trip all total down town. uptown d in reverse about the same on the weekends except monday, thursday and friday during rush hours, when thay sometimes put a c train in front of the uptown d train, it will take about 45 minutes due to congestion at beford park blvd and the 205th st station. i work from 12 am to 8am, the graveyard shift. my work week starts on thursday and ends on monday the following week, with tuesday and wednesdays off. charlie muller.
        
        Subject: Re: What's Your Daily Commute?
        Message Number: 760570
        Posted by: subway-buff
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:38:40 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]What's Your Daily Commute? posted by GAR on December 05, 1997 at 23:45:51: in a dword- seatless and packed like sardines, seriously- I ride NJT from Metro Park to Newark (NJ). On weekends I switch to the PATH to WTC to get the subway. on weekdays I walk to work from Newark Penn. speaking of the NECL? does anyone have the track map for the new station- "Newark Airport" (My name- I dont know the official name. They are adding a track on the North side of track 4 with an island platform. I asked a conductor and he said somehting about a flyover which would account for the island but where to from that- will the NECL to Trenton run on the New Track or the old track- what about traisn from tjhe Airport?Will they then flyover back to track 1? i

Thread title: Re: train being scrapped (760276)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:11:18 1997, by Tim Speer

Subject: Re: train being scrapped
Message Number: 760276
Posted by: Tim Speer
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:11:18 1997

In Reply to: [7]train being scraped posted by Jr on December 05, 1997 at 16:21:11: Not possible -- M1's can't run on the IND... they're too long, among other things! Nothing wrong with The Bronx, my friend!

Thread title: Restore 6th Av-Broadway/Brooklyn service. (760283)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:11:41 1997, by MIKE

Subject: Restore 6th Av-Broadway/Brooklyn service.
Message Number: 760283
Posted by: MIKE
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:11:41 1997

It's about time that NYCT restores 6th Av-Broadway/Brooklyn service because there is now a strong market for 6th Av service for that line, this is how service should be restored: 1)Operate the "M" train from Metropolitan Av to either 21st St/LI City or 57th St & 6th Av during weekdays & terminating at Myrtle Av during evenings, nights & weekends as it does today, reletter the "M" train to the "V" train so it doesn't confused "M" train riders with the brown curtains thinking it's still going to Lower Manhattan. 2)Extend rush hour "J" trains from Broad St to Bay Parkway replacing the rush hour "M" train in Southern Brooklyn & terminate service at Broad st during middays & all "J" trains will NOW stop at Bowery with the "Z" trains continuing to skip Bowery. If anyone has any information on when 6th Av-Broadway/Brooklyn service will be restored or if anyone has the official plan, please post it.
- Subject: Re: Restore 6th Av-Broadway/Brooklyn service.
- Message Number: 760334
- Posted by: a. scarpinato
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:13:57 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Restore 6th Av-Broadway/Brooklyn service. posted by MIKE on December 06, 1997 at 12:52:50: The smart way would be to send a k local out of Carnarsie, express it broadway brooklyn to Marcy, and then 6th either local or express to 21st. street Trains marked Eastern Pwkway could local it all the way with the Z, while the J expresses from Eastern to Delancey. While at it, the MTA should third track the El where it is easy to do so from Cresent St to 121, put a switch so the J could stop at Woodhaven, and call it a real alternative to the E. This skip stop "ain't" cuttin' it!
  - Subject: Re: Restore 6th Av-Broadway/Brooklyn service.
  - Message Number: 760408
  - Posted by: Daniel A. Valles
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:23:45 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Restore 6th Av-Broadway/Brooklyn service. posted by MIKE on December 06, 1997 at 12:52:50: Great idea... but the J makes WAY too many stops in Queens and Northern Brooklyn to extend service to Bay Parkway... Then you would really have people complaining about the service...
    - Subject: Re: Restore 6th Av-Broadway/Brooklyn service.
    - Message Number: 760597
    - Posted by: Eric B
    - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:39:52 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Restore 6th Av-Broadway/Brooklyn service. posted by MIKE on December 06, 1997 at 12:52:50: The M/V service would probably better during the evenings and weekends, instead of the shuttle to Myrtle. The TA feels that rush hour service is not justified by the ridership, after the failed 8 year run. But alot of people make the transfer from the F evenings and weekends. Another idea is to through route it with the C.

Thread title: MetroCard on PATH (760287)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:11:51 1997, by Hank Eisenstein

Subject: MetroCard on PATH
Message Number: 760287
Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:11:51 1997

In Reply to: [7]Re: The Last Word (hopefully) on MetroCard posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 05, 1997 at 09:42:14: Metrocard acceptance on PATH has been suggested, and may eventually come to be. As for it's use on Commuter busses, I don't see it, NJT Commuter fares get to be pretty high, you'd be refilling your card twice a week. -Hank
- Subject: Re: MetroCard on PATH
- Message Number: 760300
- Posted by: Bootsy
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:12:28 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]MetroCard on PATH posted by Hank Eisenstein on December 06, 1997 at 13:18:18: I think that MetroCard acceptance on commuter bus lines would be very convenient. A few times a month, I sometimes take the #193 bus to Willowbrook Mall or the 165 to one of the Paramus Malls, and the lines at the NJT ticket counters are usually quite long.

Thread title: Track noise (760299)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:12:25 1997, by Steve

Subject: Track noise
Message Number: 760299
Posted by: Steve
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:12:25 1997

I have noticed that when a train approaches on the IND underground, there seems to be some sort of noise comming from the rails. It sounds like some sort of electric voltage. The sound can only be heard when a train approaches. Anyone know what this sound is? Does anyone know where the NJ Transit yard is located in Long Island?
- Subject: Re: Track noise
- Message Number: 760302
- Posted by: Bootsy
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:12:36 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Track noise posted by Steve on December 06, 1997 at 21:40:21: The NJ Transit equipment is kept at Sunnyside Yard in Astoria, Queens. I guess this could be considered to be Long Island.
  - Subject: Re: Track noise
  - Message Number: 760304
  - Posted by: Steve
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:12:41 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Track noise posted by Steve on December 06, 1997 at 21:40:21: The sount that you are likely hearing is the sound of the contact shoes riding the 3rd rail.

Thread title: 2/5 swap cars? (760301)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:12:32 1997, by Bootsy

Subject: 2/5 swap cars?
Message Number: 760301
Posted by: Bootsy
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:12:32 1997

Are the #2 and 5 trains swapping equipment? Today, I noticed a few trains of R-26-28-29 cars on the #2, and I assumed that the R-33s from the 2 are going to the 5, and the 5's R-26-28-29 are going to the 2. Is this true?
- Subject: Re: 2/5 swap cars?
- Message Number: 760305
- Posted by: Steve
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:12:44 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]2/5 swap cars? posted by Bootsy on December 06, 1997 at 22:52:48: Since E. 180th St shop is undergoing rebuilding, both the 2 and the 5 are operating from 239th St. yard. Trains are being stored at Unionport but since both services are being maintained in the same yard, it make sense to pull trains from that yard for weekend service when needed. As far as I know - this is only done for weekend service and no permanent swap is planned.
  - Subject: Re: 2/5 swap cars?
  - Message Number: 760402
  - Posted by: Quigebo
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:23:28 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]2/5 swap cars? posted by Bootsy on December 06, 1997 at 22:52:48: And both lines are getting the R142 cars in a little over a year anyway.

Thread title: Ronkonkomo to Greenport (760306)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:12:46 1997, by Steve

Subject: Ronkonkomo to Greenport
Message Number: 760306
Posted by: Steve
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:12:46 1997

In Reply to: [7]Re: What's Your Daily Commute? posted by Peter Rosa on December 06, 1997 at 21:19:55: The shuttle is called the Scoot. It happens to be one of the highest seniority jobs for LIRR Engineers
- Subject: Re: Ronkonkomo to Greenport
- Message Number: 760316
- Posted by: Peter Rosa
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:13:13 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Ronkonkomo to Greenport posted by Steve on December 07, 1997 at 00:17:39: I'm really wondering how much longer the Greenport train (the "Scoot") will be around. In the mornings, there are maybe 40 to 50 riders by the time it arrives at Ronkonkoma, while in the evenings (the train which leaves Ronkonkoma about 6:50), there are *maybe* 25 to 30.
  - Subject: Re: Ronkonkomo to Greenport
  - Message Number: 760319
  - Posted by: Steve
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:13:21 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: Ronkonkomo to Greenport posted by Peter Rosa on December 07, 1997 at 12:08:38: Since the cost of maintaining non-electrified service is so high, that segment of the line may be destined to become part of LIRR history. Rxpansion of parking at Ronkomkoma should tell you something about what the LIRR has in mind. The only hope will be either extension of electrification or a Light Rail shuttle (my choice). I've also said before, I'd really like to see an eastern spur from Ronkonkoma to MacArthur...
    - Subject: Re: Ronkonkomo to Greenport
    - Message Number: 760322
    - Posted by: Peter Rosa
    - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:13:27 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: Ronkonkomo to Greenport posted by Steve on December 07, 1997 at 12:57:24: If service frequencies could be improved, ridership on the Greenport line might improve - it's sort of a strange situation at present, service is poor because there's low ridership and there's low ridership because service is poor! There certainly is enough of a population base east of Ronkonkoma to support increased service, and no doubt many of these riders would prefer to get a train closer to home than have to go to Ronkonkoma (despite the expansions, parking at Ronkonkoma still fills up very early and there can be heavy traffic on the LIE east of Exit 60). What might be a possible compromise is to retain service as far as Riverhead, including the proposed new Manorville station. At least these areas are within feasible commuting distance of Penn Station.
      - Subject: Re: Ronkonkomo to Greenport
      - Message Number: 760332
      - Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
      - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:13:54 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Ronkonkomo to Greenport posted by Steve on December 07, 1997 at 12:57:24: Whoa!!! Back up!!! It cost more to run the diesels than the ELECTRICS???? Even with the higest electric rates in the country?????

Thread title: Another system grows...AGAIN (760313)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:13:02 1997, by Mark Greenwald

Subject: Another system grows...AGAIN
Message Number: 760313
Posted by: Mark Greenwald
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:13:02 1997

Yesterday, December 6, 1997, The Central Light Rail Line through Baltimore and its northern & southern suburbs opened two new extensions yesterday. The extensions to Baltimore/ Washington Int'l Airport (BWI) and to Penn station (Amtrak) opened. Trains now either run from Hunt Valley to Cromwell or Penn Station to BWI. Both routes share trackage through downtown Baltimore & South Baltimore.

Thread title: Tunnel from Lower Manhattan to Staten Island (760314)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:13:05 1997, by J.D.

Subject: Tunnel from Lower Manhattan to Staten Island
Message Number: 760314
Posted by: J.D.
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:13:05 1997

Can anybody advise if there was ever a tunnel built or partly built from the Bowling Green station to Staten Island...........I have spoken to an inspector who worked at that station.he had told me that appx. 250' into the tunnel a section veres off but it is closed off by a cynder block wall..I have no E-Mail address just post the message...I will probably rerad this again on the 14th please try to have the answer.......thanks
- Subject: Re: Tunnel from Lower Manhattan to Staten Island
- Message Number: 760315
- Posted by: J.D.
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:13:08 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Tunnel from Lower Manhattan to Staten Island posted by J.D. on December 07, 1997 at 11:55:56: It also could have been The Whitehall Steet station........Sorry I have forgotten which staion it was..
  - Subject: Re: Tunnel from Lower Manhattan to Staten Island
  - Message Number: 760348
  - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:20:54 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Tunnel from Lower Manhattan to Staten Island posted by J.D. on December 07, 1997 at 11:55:56: This story is like the Roswell incident, in that it is impossible to prove that it DOESN'T exist. There is a lot of unused tunnel south of Bowling Green for the abandoned connection to South Ferry. But an underwater tunnel duplicating the route of the Staten Island Ferry is almost unthinkable; it would be over five miles long! Whereas the narrows route from 95th st. in Brooklyn, which apparently did recieve serious consideration, is more like one mile.
    - Subject: Re: Tunnel from Lower Manhattan to Staten Island
    - Message Number: 760380
    - Posted by: Steve Z
    - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:22:21 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Tunnel from Lower Manhattan to Staten Island posted by J.D. on December 07, 1997 at 12:04:06: It IS Whitehall Street. I have noticed this turnoff myself. A couple of years ago, I asked this same question on the newsgroup and was told that it was meant to be a connector to the 9th Avenue El at Battery Place.
      - Subject: Re: Tunnel from Lower Manhattan to Staten Island
      - Message Number: 760407
      - Posted by: Daniel A. Valles
      - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:23:43 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Tunnel from Lower Manhattan to Staten Island posted by Gary Jacobi on December 08, 1997 at 11:32:38: It is unthinkable, but it could be done... Trains normally travel about 45 mph on straight tracks... Thus, the trip would only last about 6 minutes (probably closer to 9 minutes if any turning has to occur)... Then, hook the train up at St. George and run the train along the North Shore tracks... P.S. - I know that it probably won't happen, but tunnel building is alot different today than it was when the subway was first built...
        
        Subject: Re: Tunnel from Lower Manhattan to Staten Island
        Message Number: 760452
        Posted by: Joe-M
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:25:47 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Tunnel from Lower Manhattan to Staten Island posted by Daniel A. Valles on December 09, 1997 at 21:04:08: How long are the bart tubes?? I remember seeing pictures of the construction. They were not tunneled but precast concrete sections that were lowered and connected at the bottom on some kind of base. The ferry is more fun though even if its a bit slower. All modes have their place and the Statten Island Ferry is an institution. It was $.25 las time I rode it what is the fare now??
        
        Subject: Re: Tunnel from Lower Manhattan to Staten Island
        Message Number: 760477
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:27:29 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Tunnel from Lower Manhattan to Staten Island posted by Joe-M on December 10, 1997 at 23:48:38: The BART tubes are in the neighborhood of four miles long. My point was not that a Five mile long tunnel is not do-able, but rather that an engineer would seek the shortest route available for the high cost link in any connection. You can't get from the Embarcadero to Oakland without traversing four miles of Bay. You CAN connect the NY subway system to Staten Island without a five mile tunnel.
        
        Subject: Re: Tunnel from Lower Manhattan to Staten Island
        Message Number: 760483
        Posted by: Chris
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:27:56 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Tunnel from Lower Manhattan to Staten Island posted by Gary Jacobi on December 11, 1997 at 12:16:58: I have seen a subway map from the 1920s or 1930s which depicts a proposed tunnel from the tip of Manhattan to Staten Island. This is a great distances indeed, however, the map shows that even long ago this far out idea was the best. What's the point of a tunnel connecting the R train on 4th avenue in Brooklyn, it would take hours to reach Manhattan through Brooklyn. At that rate you might as well take the Ferry!
        
        Subject: Re: Tunnel from Lower Manhattan to Staten Island
        Message Number: 760492
        Posted by: Quigebo
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:28:23 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Tunnel from Lower Manhattan to Staten Island posted by Chris on December 11, 1997 at 14:19:07: Not so! You could have another train run under 4th Avenue, let's call it the T train, and it would operate express from Pacific to 59th Street. After 59th the T tracks would turn to go towards Owl's Head Park and tunnel towards Staten Island. I assume the T would take over the SIRTOA line.
        
        Subject: Re: Tunnel from Lower Manhattan to Staten Island
        Message Number: 760514
        Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:35:59 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Tunnel from Lower Manhattan to Staten Island posted by Joe-M on December 10, 1997 at 23:48:38: The Ferry fare went up to 50 cents round trip in 1989(?)...the fare was eliminated on July 4 of this year. It's free. -hank
        
        Subject: Re: Tunnel from Lower Manhattan to Staten Island
        Message Number: 760607
        Posted by: J.D.
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:40:27 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Tunnel from Lower Manhattan to Staten Island posted by Steve Z on December 09, 1997 at 00:07:27: Steve Z.. well thank you very much for the information, but I think that it really might be the tunnel to Staten Island. Yesterday, the 14th I took a few train rides and actually saw this turn off, I believe it was the N train that I took. I will try to investigate this more with the NYC TA out of Jay St. As I had mentioned before, I met this manager? who worked there. I do not believe there is access to this tunnel from underground, do to the fact that it is cynderblocked off for both tubes. Maybe there is a enterance from the top somewhere. There must be some record of this tunnel ( if that what it really is) somewhere, some place. Once again thanks..I do not knopw when I will be be back at this site. Hopefully in a week or so.

Thread title: Brooklyn Tech (760317)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:13:15 1997, by Tim Speer

Subject: Brooklyn Tech
Message Number: 760317
Posted by: Tim Speer
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:13:15 1997

In Reply to: [7]Re: What's Your Daily Commute? posted by Steve on December 07, 1997 at 00:18:46: I'm a Brooklyn Tech alumni. Any more out there?
- Subject: Re: Brooklyn Tech
- Message Number: 760320
- Posted by: Steve
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:13:23 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Brooklyn Tech posted by Tim Speer on December 07, 1997 at 12:42:16: Class of 67 - Electronics
  - Subject: Re: Brooklyn Tech
  - Message Number: 760326
  - Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:13:36 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: Brooklyn Tech posted by Steve on December 07, 1997 at 12:58:57: I went to Brooklyn Tech....unfortunately, I was more interested in majoring in the subway than in classes...transfered out to Curtis on SI...what a pain in the butt commute it was, though....s55 to Annadale Sattion, train to St. George, Ferry, R to Dekalb... Usually took 2 hours... -Hank
    - Subject: Re: Brooklyn Tech
    - Message Number: 760347
    - Posted by: Tim Speer
    - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:20:52 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: Brooklyn Tech posted by Hank Eisenstein on December 07, 1997 at 16:54:35: I graduated 1987 -- Mechanical Engineering I lived in the East village, and was close to the J&M, the LL, the F, the 6, and the RR. I would leave for Tech two hours early, just so I could take the most interesting, circuitous route possible. With the many subway lines in downtown Brooklyn, the variations were endless!
      - Subject: Re: Brooklyn Tech
      - Message Number: 760358
      - Posted by: Charles Fiori
      - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:21:24 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Brooklyn Tech posted by Tim Speer on December 08, 1997 at 11:05:52: Sounds like me. When I used to go to school in late 70s, the R46s were just being delivered. I might let 3 or 4 trains go by at 59-Lex just to get on a fancy new train...for a 4 stop ride! I remember when the first R-62 train ran on the 4, I picked it up at 59-Lex and rode the front car down to Union Sq, then the BMT back up to Times Sq and then the IRT to Columbia (Grad School then). What I'm trying to say Tim, is that I know from circuitous trips just to ride an extra train!!! Also rode an R-62 on the 7 out to Woodside, on one of its infrequent runnings on that line. Sat next to a tech rep from Nissho-Iwai and hoped he couldn't understand English because a very heavy-set gentleman on my other side was moaning about the contoured seats' not being able to handle his ample posterior.
        
        Subject: Re: Brooklyn Tech
        Message Number: 760382
        Posted by: Frank Gatazka
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:22:27 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Brooklyn Tech posted by Tim Speer on December 07, 1997 at 12:42:16: Class of 1974, Mechanical. I grew up about 100 yards from the Boyd Ave station on the Dual Contracts extension of the Fulton Ave El over Liberty Avenue. I used to commute to Tech every day via the A train. I'd meet some freinds at the Grant Avenue station, then head into downtown Brooklyn. The equipment running at that time was mostly R-10's, with some R1-9's on the runs to the Rockaways. Knowing that they were short lived, many a morning I would wait for the Rockaway train so that I could ride in those pre-war battleships. My buddies never understood my interest in the subway, but merely tolerated it! Later, the arrival of the R-44/46's spelled the end for the R1-9's. The air conditioning was nice, but nothing was better than a warm R1-9 on a cold January morning when I needed to be at St Angela Hall Academy on Clinton Street at 5:30 AM for drivers ed!
        
        Subject: Re: Brooklyn Tech
        Message Number: 760415
        Posted by: sdc-foti
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:23:58 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Brooklyn Tech posted by Charles Fiori on December 08, 1997 at 13:23:29: Yup, Could've taken a little knife out and ordered the Fat Butted man to commit seppuku-harikari. Foti-
        
        Subject: Re: Brooklyn Tech
        Message Number: 760564
        Posted by: Pat Villani
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:38:27 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Brooklyn Tech posted by Tim Speer on December 07, 1997 at 12:42:16: Yep, BTHS class of '72. Electronics.

Thread title: Rat Control/Poisons (760318)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:13:17 1997, by Jon Levy

Subject: Rat Control/Poisons
Message Number: 760318
Posted by: Jon Levy
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:13:17 1997

If any information pertaining to the above subject and the NYC Subway system, could you please let me know, any help would be appreciated. thanks.
- Subject: Re: Rat Control/Poisons
- Message Number: 760331
- Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:13:52 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Rat Control/Poisons posted by Jon Levy on December 07, 1997 at 12:47:32: Hmmm... I've noticed that subway rats are getting smaller and smaller. They used to be HUGE suckers years ago, now they look more like big mice. Or maybe the mice are getting bigger???
  - Subject: Re: Rat Control/Poisons
  - Message Number: 760369
  - Posted by: Lefty
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:21:49 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: Rat Control/Poisons posted by Philip Nasadowski on December 07, 1997 at 20:03:36: all i know is that at 96th st on the 1/2/3 i saw signs warning riders that the tracks were fumigated and looked down only to see the same number of rats as usual going about their business..
    - Subject: Re: Rat Control/Poisons
    - Message Number: 760482
    - Posted by: CHRIS
    - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:27:53 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Rat Control/Poisons posted by Lefty on December 08, 1997 at 16:19:45: What is the deal with rat poison in NYC subways anyway? When trains pass does poison fly into the air only to be breathed by riders??? What are the long term effects??? Does the city even care????
      - Subject: Re: Rat Control/Poisons
      - Message Number: 760569
      - Posted by: subway-buff
      - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:38:38 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Rat Control/Poisons posted by CHRIS on December 11, 1997 at 14:12:05: two comments 1- That may be true,but what about the trains spreading the droppings(feces) and urine of the rodents? 2- This is reminiscent of an earlier poster- Susan, RN and the TB thread. are you sure you are not Susan RN?

Thread title: "Transportation Justice" (760327)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:13:40 1997, by Mike Rothenberg

Subject: "Transportation Justice"
Message Number: 760327
Posted by: Mike Rothenberg
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:13:40 1997

To borrow from a current concept, does anyone know if there has been a study of actual and potential patronage throught the NYC area showing, for example, by transit line: patronage per mile, potential patronage, area served, etc? It seems that, even with free transfer between buses and subways, that some areas are over-supplied with train lines (for example, southern Brooklyn) so inconvenience & time needed to make the transfer are eliminated there, while other areas are under-supplied (for example, much of Queens). Call this a study of "Transportation Justice", which could serve as a basis for making extensions (& maybe subtractions?- a hot issue) to fund extensions.
- Subject: Re: "Transportation Justice"
- Message Number: 760342
- Posted by: si2000
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:20:43 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]"Transportation Justice" posted by Mike Rothenberg on December 07, 1997 at 18:21:37: Southern Brooklyn has many train lines for a number of reasons. The services (B,D,F,N) are all outgrowths of railroad lines dating back to 1875. All these services terminated at Coney Island, which was a major resort area. The railroads were replaced by elevated or depressed electric services by 1920. During this same time period Queens was mostly farmland, hence very little rail services. During the1920's subway services were added to Queens along Queens Blvd. The population of Queens has skyrocketed beyond what the 1920s-built system was meant to handle, while the population of southern Brooklyn has not grown to the point of over-burdening the old BMT/IND network. It's not about 'justice', just population.
  - Subject: Re: "Transportation Justice"
  - Message Number: 760368
  - Posted by: Peter Rosa
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:21:47 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: "Transportation Justice" posted by si2000 on December 08, 1997 at 09:07:41: Without question, the east side of Manhattan is severely under-served. Its only service is on the already overcrowded Lexington Avenue line. The well-docmented fiasco of the Second Avenue subway is the main reason for the east side's lack of adequate services. Elevated lines along Second and Third Avenues (maybe others?) were torn down with the expectation that the Second Avenue subway would more than make up for the resulting loss of service. That never happened, and probably never will, and as a result east side riders continue to jam themselves into the Lexington trains. One interesting point to ponder is the effect this poor service has had on the area. It might be assumed that poor subway service will depress property values, and I suppose that might have happened in parts of Queens or elsewhere. But the east side of Manhattan, as everyone knows, has generally maintained high property values despite the lack of a Second Avenue subway. There's probably some lesson in that, though I'm not going to try to guess what it might be.
    - Subject: Re: "Transportation Justice"
    - Message Number: 760381
    - Posted by: Mike Rothenberg
    - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:22:24 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: "Transportation Justice" posted by si2000 on December 08, 1997 at 09:07:41: The historical perspective on the development of southern Brooklyn transit lines generally after the population was there, and the development of Queens transit lines before the population was there, was very useful. The question still remains: if funding problems keeps areas with poor coverage & crowded lines (such as Queens) from getting new extensions to serve areas that are miles from trains, is there a higher value in maintaining the status quo, or in getting $$ to build those lines by dropping a line or two in areas over-served? Difficult decisions-yet walking a bit more to other lines in Bklyn.to provide $$ for underserved Queens areas may be the moral/correct way.
      - Subject: Re: "Transportation Justice"
      - Message Number: 760383
      - Posted by: si2000
      - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:22:30 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: "Transportation Justice" posted by Mike Rothenberg on December 09, 1997 at 01:19:41: Dropping an entire line in an 'over-served' area will only cause the remaining near-by services to become over-crowded, so nothing is gained. I don't believe in the implied 'equal suffering' illogic in deleting viable services because other areas are underserved.
        
        Subject: Re: "Transportation Justice"
        Message Number: 760393
        Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:22:56 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: "Transportation Justice" posted by si2000 on December 09, 1997 at 08:02:32: This may seem strange to some, but: Some people like being far from the subway and will pay more for the luxury of not being near others. Witness the quietest, most expensive part of Manhattan is York Avenue in the 70s and 80s, about as far from the subway as you can be in Manhattan and yet is the most expensive and quiet neighborhood in the borough. It is completely unlike the rest of Manhattan. Conversely, at the other end, some people need to pay the lower rent which comes from being far from the subway. Building a subway may cause people's rents to be raised because demand is higher and the supply has not changed. Some people may even prefer taking a bus that runs every 3 minutes (e.g., Nostrand Avenue, Flatbush Avenue south of the Junction) to living near elevated tracks or the congestion of train station business districts.
        
        Subject: Re: "Transportation Justice"
        Message Number: 760398
        Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:23:16 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: "Transportation Justice" posted by Mike Rothenberg on December 09, 1997 at 01:19:41: Would you cancel the Lenox Avenue line rom 135th to 148 St. because other lines are close by? How about the entire Washington Hts. line because the Bway line is a few blocks away? How about Jerome Avenue since the Concourse is a few blocks away? How about the western half of the Flushing line? It's not so far from the IND Queens line, until after 74-Bway. Even the L train in Williamsburg isn't that far from the J train. Not that I wanted to get emotional about it or anything... But lots of places have lines somewhat close together. I can't envision that closing some lines in southern Brooklyn will allow billions of dollars of construction money to somehow be available. The MTA can't even figure out how to take over a chunk of LIRR track to run trains to St. Albans, Queens, when they have have been planning it for 35 years. That can't cost that much. Sorry for being more emotional than usual.
        
        Subject: Re: "Transportation Justice"
        Message Number: 760416
        Posted by: Mike Rothenberg
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:24:00 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: "Transportation Justice" posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 09, 1997 at 12:59:39: Carl's noting specific lines was useful re: my point about usage & lack of improvement $: (1)Until the 1950's the Lenox line was local & Bdwy line was express, below 96th St. The constant use of the X-vers there proved to be an operational problem so they made the Bdwy line local & Lenox line express, avoiding use of the X-overs. The Bdwy. line north of 96th has more passengers and should have been express, shortening their trip times to mid/downtown. But lack of $$ to build outside tracks just north of 96th St.to avoid X-overs,done at DeKalb, prevented this.(2)Re:A/B-1,4-C/D,7-/E/F/G/R,L-J,:What's their patron- age vs.B/N betw.36th&Coney I.,& F betw. Church Av. & CI? Mostly more.
        
        Subject: Re: "Transportation Justice"
        Message Number: 760418
        Posted by: Mike Rothenberg
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:24:03 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: "Transportation Justice" posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 09, 1997 at 12:59:39: Hopefully, this will appear just below the item I wrote witnin the last half-hour. Near the bottom of that one, change B/N to B/M/N. The point is that these lines cross over each other, have relatively low patronage compared with the others you mention, and all run between 36th St. and Coney Island. The F and N lines are about seven blocks apart for a number of stops. How may people use those stations? Are they cost-effecitve? How does this compare with the patronage expected from areas that are miles from subways? Re: York Ave., I don't see that apartments on Park Ave. suffer from MN tracks under it.They're still very expensive-I doubt if York Av.will suffer.
        
        Subject: Re: "Transportation Justice"
        Message Number: 760537
        Posted by: Joe M
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:36:42 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: "Transportation Justice" posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 09, 1997 at 12:59:39: They need to shift the funds from Highways to transit NY state has some of the lowest gas taxes in the country. High gas tax would provide capital for transit expansion. Gas tax is wis is about $.19 for state tax
        
        Subject: Re: "Transportation Justice"
        Message Number: 760785
        Posted by: Chris C.
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:10:51 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: "Transportation Justice" posted by Joe M on December 12, 1997 at 14:53:10: I agree, Raise the gas tax a few pennies and raise the NYC tolls an extra dollar during rush hour. I would even explore adding to the 18.25% parking tax in New York city. Together with a few federal dollars these revenue could get the system up to ass kicking speed!
        
        Subject: Re: "Transportation Justice"
        Message Number: 761042
        Posted by: si2000
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:18:58 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: "Transportation Justice" posted by Chris C. on December 16, 1997 at 16:21:54: Tax, tax, tax! You can't just tax the middle class anymore. The massive middle-class flight of the last 40 years was fueled by ever-increasing taxes. Your tax suggestions are nothing more than another old-line liberal wealth-redistribution scene. Our governments must live within their means, like everyone else.

Thread title: nycsubway.org on TV (760328)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:13:43 1997, by David Pirmann

Subject: nycsubway.org on TV
Message Number: 760328
Posted by: David Pirmann
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:13:43 1997

I just wanted to mention to all of you that Mike Adler's New York City Subway map (featured here at [7]http://www.nycsubway.org/routemap/) was shown briefly on The Learning Channel's show "Cyber Warriors". It wasn't talked about; they were just briefly flipping past a bunch of web sites while talking about the importance of the net. The first shot showed the map legend and top of a Netscape browser screen, and then later they came back and showed more of the map itself. Congrats Mike!
- Subject: Re: nycsubway.org on TV
- Message Number: 760354
- Posted by: Brian Wolk
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:21:15 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]nycsubway.org on TV posted by David Pirmann on December 07, 1997 at 19:50:39: It's pretty damn wicked when something you produce is shown on TV, isn't it?
  - Subject: Re: nycsubway.org on TV
  - Message Number: 760455
  - Posted by: Michael Adler
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:26:00 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]nycsubway.org on TV posted by David Pirmann on December 07, 1997 at 19:50:39: Does anyone have a copy of TV clip? let me know, Thanks, Michael Adler Lakewood, ColorFUL Colorado

Thread title: Keith (760335)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:13:59 1997, by IRT #7

Subject: Keith
Message Number: 760335
Posted by: IRT #7
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:13:59 1997

On the IRT #7, on the side of the local tracks, there are what seems to be large black boxes with some sort of metal board on it,facing the train. What is that used for? What keeps a train on SIRR from running a red light?

Thread title: irt7 SIR red lights... (760337)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:14:05 1997, by Hank Eisenstein

Subject: irt7 SIR red lights...
Message Number: 760337
Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:14:05 1997

In Reply to: [7]Keith posted by IRT #7 on December 07, 1997 at 22:21:35: Those boxes are for the now nonfunctional IDENTRA system, which would alert the station ahead that the train was on the way. The only thing that keeps an SIR train from running a red signal is an attentive engineer. -Hank
- Subject: Re: irt7 SIR red lights...
- Message Number: 760406
- Posted by: Daniel A. Valles
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:23:40 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]irt7 SIR red lights... posted by Hank Eisenstein on December 07, 1997 at 23:04:30: You mean to tell me that a very severe accident could occur out on Staten Island if there isn't an attentive engineer at the head of the train?! We could possibly have the Malbone Street disaster all over again... P.S. - For those who don't know, the Malbone Street wreck was the worst accident that occurred in our subway system back in the 1910s... It occurred at the now-unused tunnel of the Prospect Park station...
  - Subject: Re: irt7 SIR red lights...
  - Message Number: 760411
  - Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:23:51 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: irt7 SIR red lights... posted by Daniel A. Valles on December 09, 1997 at 20:58:08: Well, yes....except fo the rigid schedule and train radios. There has never been a collision on SIR since the TA took over, TMK. We've had a derailment of a work train (minor)occasional derailment in St. George (double slip switch malfunction, also minor) and a train that overran the Tottenville Terminal and rammed a concrete block at 20+MPH. When trackwork is done, and single-tracking is required, there is an additional crew that brings the train through the work zone. no danger. -Hank
    - Subject: Re: irt7 SIR red lights...
    - Message Number: 760428
    - Posted by: Lou form Brooklyn (X-Staten Islander)
    - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:24:25 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: irt7 SIR red lights... posted by Daniel A. Valles on December 09, 1997 at 20:58:08: You have to remember that the Staten Island Railway is not a subway operation. I think the max headway times on the morning rush is 5/6 minutes. That is the closest the trains are scheduled, not that I've seen the public timetable in awhile. Evening rush hour the the closest the trains leave is like the Great Kills express (first stop halfway down the line) follwed 5 minutes later by the local. Your not talking one minute headways or limited sight distance underground around tight curves. So the express would have to get stuck, the following train not hear the calls to the dispatcher, not see the red signal (maybe 2 or 3 of them depending on how many blocks back the local is), and not see the EOT markers or by that time maybe crew on the roadbed. Yes there is no failsafe as in subway or even some of more modern railroading but I don't think it is a Melborne waiting to happen.... IMHO
      - Subject: Re: irt7 SIR red lights...
      - Message Number: 760433
      - Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
      - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:24:35 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: irt7 SIR red lights... posted by Daniel A. Valles on December 09, 1997 at 20:58:08: Nevermind SIRT. Metro-North's cab signals can't tell the difference between full stop and restricting. I don't think the LIRR's can either. Am I the only one here who thinks that's stupid??? Oh yeah, does anyone know about Septa's???

Thread title: re: transit surplus (760338)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:20:33 1997, by charlie muller

Subject: re: transit surplus
Message Number: 760338
Posted by: charlie muller
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:20:33 1997

in the december 8, 1997 ny daily news page 3, gov. pataki is set to announce today an unprecedented subway and bus fare rollback with a program that offers historic monthly and weekly passes that reward more-frequent riders with the largest discounts, said sources familiar with the plan. for more info see page 3 of the ny dalily news for monday dec 8. charlie muller
- Subject: Re: re: transit surplus
- Message Number: 760340
- Posted by: charlie muller
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:20:37 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]re: transit surplus posted by charlie muller on December 08, 1997 at 04:04:48: also more on the transit surplus. also there is an article in the ny post december 8, page 4 and the ny times december 8 metro section page B1. charlie muller

Thread title: Motormen and Conductors' Work Programs (760339)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:20:36 1997, by John Rothney

Subject: Motormen and Conductors' Work Programs
Message Number: 760339
Posted by: John Rothney
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:20:36 1997

I collect NYCTA railroadiana but only once in thirty years have I been able to find some of these. Can anyone tell me how to acquire some? Many thanks. JR
- Subject: Re: Motormen and Conductors' Work Programs
- Message Number: 760341
- Posted by: Charles Fiori
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:20:41 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Motormen and Conductors' Work Programs posted by John Rothney on December 08, 1997 at 04:16:30: Any interest in roll signs? Sale or trade?

Thread title: Re: Hoboken-PABT Buses:Why does NJT bother? (760343)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:20:45 1997, by Michael S. Buglak

Subject: Re: Hoboken-PABT Buses:Why does NJT bother?
Message Number: 760343
Posted by: Michael S. Buglak
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:20:45 1997

In Reply to: [7]Re: Hoboken-PABT Buses: NJT #126 Vs. Red Apple posted by Bootsy on December 06, 1997 at 15:31:23: Thanks for the info! Now, I wonder why NJT even bothers running any service on the #126 line if Red Apple can do it cheaper? (Maybe as a "Public Service" for its rail monthly ticket holders) (Pun intended!) HMMMM! Michael S. Buglak, Collegeville, PA
- Subject: Re: Hoboken-PABT Buses:Why does NJT bother?
- Message Number: 760353
- Posted by: Charles Fiori
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:21:10 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: Hoboken-PABT Buses:Why does NJT bother? posted by Michael S. Buglak on December 08, 1997 at 09:23:17: They (NJT) may have to run the service so they do not lose the opportunity to run it. That is, if they stopped running buses, they might not be able to get back in later on if they changed their minds. I am told that Steinway transit used to run one bus in each direction weekdays on the "Q-100", just so they could keep the franchise. I think that stopped when Q-66 got extended to Queensbridge.
  - Subject: Re: Hoboken-PABT Buses:Why does NJT bother?
  - Message Number: 760376
  - Posted by: CTG
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:22:10 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Hoboken-PABT Buses:Why does NJT bother? posted by Michael S. Buglak on December 08, 1997 at 09:23:17: Actually, the NJT rush hour busses tend to be full. NJT offers a monthly fare which averages less than the Red Apple's single trip fare. I don't think Red Apple offers a monthly fare. Also, the NJT fleet is much newer and has more comfortable seats.
    - Subject: Re: Hoboken-PABT Buses:Why does NJT bother?
    - Message Number: 760400
    - Posted by: Bootsy
    - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:23:21 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Hoboken-PABT Buses:Why does NJT bother? posted by CTG on December 08, 1997 at 22:48:13: The Flxible Suburbans used by NJ Transit are more comfortable than the others and have luggage racks, but the #126 also uses regular transit busses, including the RTS. The average fare per month is probably negotiable, depending on how often you travel this line. Does Red Apple still use the old Flxible New Looks on the Hoboken-New York line?

Thread title: Trying to locate subway station blue prints (760344)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:20:47 1997, by Gary S.

Subject: Trying to locate subway station blue prints
Message Number: 760344
Posted by: Gary S.
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:20:47 1997

Does anyone know here I can locate subway station blue prints ? especially of manhattan stations. Are there any on-line ? does any one have station blue prints which he can post ?
- Subject: Re: Trying to locate subway station blue prints
- Message Number: 760435
- Posted by: Tom O
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:24:41 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Trying to locate subway station blue prints posted by Gary S. on December 08, 1997 at 10:43:56: I dont know of any on-line blueprints, but at 370 Jay Street NYC Transit has all the subway(as opposed to elevated) lines on microfilm. You can make an appointment, go down view the lines that interest you and make copies if you wish. The phone number is 718-243-3596, ask for Mr. Ted Marcus.

Thread title: Re: The Baltimore Central Light Rail Line Extension (760346)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:20:50 1997, by Carl M. Rabbin

Subject: Re: The Baltimore Central Light Rail Line Extension
Message Number: 760346
Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:20:50 1997

In Reply to: [6]Another system grows...AGAIN posted by Mark Greenwald on December 07, 1997 at 11:05:19: Unfortuntely, they are off to a bad start. According to the Baltimore Sun on Saturday, there aren't enough cars, so while the original line gets 17-minute service (Hunt Valley - Glen Burnie, the airport / Penn Station section get only 34-minute service. So right when people could get a good first impression, they get a bad one. It also makes the central section shared by both lines (Linthicum - Mt. Royal Avenue) have strange times, sometimes every 8 minutes, sometimes every 17 minutes. I assume that they will one day fix this. ------------------------------------------------------------------ If Maryland MTA people read this: The final configuration should be: Hunt Valley - BWI Airport Penn Station - Glen Burnie Anybody who needs to go from Baltimore's Penn Station to BWI directly can take their Amtrak or Commuter train to the BWI rail station anyway.
- Subject: Re: The Baltimore Central Light Rail Line Extension
- Message Number: 760379
- Posted by: Mike K
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:22:19 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Re: The Baltimore Central Light Rail Line Extension posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 08, 1997 at 11:01:07: Lack of cars isn't the only problem... Many parts of that system, including a key portion shared by both routes, is SINGLE-TRACK. If you ran both lines at 15-minute intervals, you're talking about trains running along a single stretch of track in different directions every 3-4 minutes. This system is not computer-operated, so that's a real tight margin of error. And my model assumes a short distance of single track. This single track area actually covers several stations south of Camden Yards.
  - Subject: Re: The Baltimore Central Light Rail Line Extension
  - Message Number: 760391
  - Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:22:50 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: The Baltimore Central Light Rail Line Extension posted by Mike K on December 08, 1997 at 23:27:44: They have double tracked much of the section south of Westport so as to allow a train every 3-4 minutes, or so it seemed when they were working on it. The only two-branch single track is from the pending Hamburg St station to just past Westport over the river(swamp)under the highways, I think.
    - Subject: Re: The Baltimore Central Light Rail Line Extension
    - Message Number: 760397
    - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
    - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:23:11 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: The Baltimore Central Light Rail Line Extension posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 09, 1997 at 10:51:31: This is a familiar story to us here in Sacramento. Our system was built ten or so years ago with about 40% single track to save money. It could be shown on paper to be able to operate with 15 min. headways, but several spots proved to be bottlenecks, requiring one train to wait for the opposite trip to pass. They lengthened the double track at a few of the worst ones, and there seldom is waiting at single track junctions any more. However, there is talk from time to time about adding routes, which would require 7.5 min headways, which they claim can be handled, but one has to wonder if the single track segments that were just adequate for 15 min. headways won't need more work. If there is a lesson to be learned, I think it is that single track sections are a false economy for any system that hopes to grow.
      - Subject: Re: The Baltimore Central Light Rail Line Extension
      - Message Number: 760458
      - Posted by: Nathan
      - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:26:10 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: The Baltimore Central Light Rail Line Extension posted by Gary Jacobi on December 09, 1997 at 12:53:13: Goes to show how cheap the government goes with light rail systems, haven't they learned that no one will ride unless fast convenient service is offered...

Thread title: Re: Moving Platform (Times Sq. Shuttle) (760350)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:21:01 1997, by Ed Sachs

Subject: Re: Moving Platform (Times Sq. Shuttle)
Message Number: 760350
Posted by: Ed Sachs
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:21:01 1997

In Reply to: [7]Re: Moving Platform posted by Todd Glickman on December 05, 1997 at 10:57:33: So they're mechanized now. My memories of these moving platforms in the 60s was that they were hand operated by a person stationed on the platform who threw a big lever to extend/retract them.

Thread title: TransitAds (760351)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:21:04 1997, by Adam

Subject: TransitAds
Message Number: 760351
Posted by: Adam
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:21:04 1997

I'm not sure if anyone was aware, but there used to be this great site called TransitAds at http://www.quuxuum.org/transitads/ where people could post ads for buying and selling and trading transit-related items. This page was maintained by Michael Adler. However, it has not been updated since the summer and although I have sent numerous e-mails to Michael Adler, I have received no response. I would really hate to see this site go into oblivion so is there anyone (Dave?) who can resurrect a site like this and possibly attach it to this site? I think that it would be a benefit for all.
- Subject: Re: TransitAds
- Message Number: 760359
- Posted by: Charles Fiori
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:21:27 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]TransitAds posted by Adam on December 08, 1997 at 13:05:10: Ditto. I am on a mission to add to my bus rollsign collection. Sent an e-mail to Mr. Adler and got no reply AND no ad posting.
  - Subject: Re: TransitAds
  - Message Number: 760410
  - Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:23:49 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: TransitAds posted by Charles Fiori on December 08, 1997 at 13:25:25: FYI, Quuxuum.org is this site's home base... -Hank
    - Subject: Re: TransitAds
    - Message Number: 760420
    - Posted by: David Pirmann
    - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:24:08 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: TransitAds posted by Hank Eisenstein on December 10, 1997 at 02:39:47: Yup, I gave Mike Adler space on quuxuum.org to run Transit Ads. The site has nothing to do with me, though, and I'm not really interested in taking it over. I can't speak for Mike but maybe it wasn't being maintained because there wasn't much traffic. (quuxuum.org is the same physical machine as nycsubway.org, FWIW). -Dave
      - Subject: Re: TransitAds
      - Message Number: 760451
      - Posted by: Adam
      - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:25:42 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: TransitAds posted by David Pirmann on December 10, 1997 at 09:44:22: Does Mike Adler have a working e-mail address that he can be reached at? I would really like to contact him about the page and what can be done to resurrect it.
        
        Subject: Re: TransitAds
        Message Number: 760454
        Posted by: Michael Adler
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:25:57 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: TransitAds posted by Adam on December 10, 1997 at 21:06:26: Adam, I'm still here :-) it's just that I've been working 12+ hours as a Letter Carrier for the U.S. Postal Service, and spending time with my family and my 2 kids, other reason is traffic is very light (15 to 35 hits a week) I may have missed your e-mail due to increased *Junk* e-mail (don't we get that from our mailmen/women ) I would not delete if I see it related to subways, transitads, etc.. on subject, I do get subjects like "Re: Hi", and I get porno web site addresses! If anyone still wants to see TransitAds to have more ads, all you have to do is place an ad, sell something, want something, etc... I'm aware that alot of ads are outdated, I can try and find the time to update them and remove old postings. I'm open to all suggestions. Seasons Greetings, Michael Adler City Letter Carrier serving Wheat Ridge & Mountain View (not Netscape's hometown )
        
        Subject: Re: TransitAds
        Message Number: 760456
        Posted by: Adam
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:26:03 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: TransitAds posted by Michael Adler on December 11, 1997 at 00:34:01: Dear Mr. Adler, Thanks for responding to my inquiries about your web site! I think that it is a great website and I would like to be of assistance in any way if you do need it to maintain the page. I understand that you have been working hard, and I apologize if I have assumed otherwise. Maybe you could advertise the site on here (NYC Subway Resources) to get more traffic because this page gets a ton of traffic. Also, you could advertise on other subway pages in perhaps a reciprocal agreement in which you would advertise for their site on yours. Just a few ideas! I'll try not to send too much (snail?!?) mail over to Wheat Ridge and Mountain View! --Adam

Thread title: Re: Canarsie Line (from prev. posts)MS-haha! (760361)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:21:34 1997, by Lou from Middletown

Subject: Re: Canarsie Line (from prev. posts)MS-haha!
Message Number: 760361
Posted by: Lou from Middletown
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:21:34 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Canarsie Line (from prev. posts) posted by Hank Eisenstein on December 06, 1997 at 13:12:39: I was, of corse talking about the mult-sectioned units that the BMT ordered in the late 30's for use on the Canarsie and other lines.-see Geller's "Subway Cars of the BMT" or Cuidahy's "Under the Sidewalksof NY for pictures and such....
- Subject: Re: Canarsie Line (from prev. posts)MS-haha!
- Message Number: 760392
- Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:22:53 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: Canarsie Line (from prev. posts)MS-haha! posted by Lou from Middletown on December 08, 1997 at 13:36:52: Do you mean those triple car combinations with an articulated circular piece connecting them? They were great. They were the last trains that had single passenger doors, rather than double doors. When I was a kid (circa 1958), I used to give my mother fits standing in the circular vestibule between cars. She always thought I'd fall out of the train somehow. They also had lit signs as to whether the train was BRIDGE or TUNNEL.

Thread title: The $60 (or will it be $50 0r $55)Question (760362)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:21:36 1997, by Lou from Middletown

Subject: The $60 (or will it be $50 0r $55)Question
Message Number: 760362
Posted by: Lou from Middletown
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:21:36 1997

Well what do you know- a politician that smell which the wind blows!!! The only question of course, is the details...Now how about a daily pass for out-of-town visitors like everybody (almost) else does???

Thread title: Links to Articles (was Re: re: transit surplus) (760366)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:21:44 1997, by Mark S Feinman

Subject: Links to Articles (was Re: re: transit surplus)
Message Number: 760366
Posted by: Mark S Feinman
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:21:44 1997

In Reply to: [7]Re: re: transit surplus posted by charlie muller on December 08, 1997 at 07:12:47: For those of you not able to get a copy of today's NY Times or Daily News: [8]Here's a link to the Daily News article. [9]Here's a link to the New York Times article but you'll need to get an id and password to lok at the NY Times site (no charge for US residents). Couldn't find the on-line NY Post story. --Mark
- Subject: Re: Links to Articles (was Re: re: transit surplus)
- Message Number: 760367
- Posted by: Tim Speer
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:21:45 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Links to Articles (was Re: re: transit surplus) posted by Mark S Feinman on December 08, 1997 at 14:25:28: Metrocard makes my Boston T-pass look like Carte-Blanche. Too bad Boston subways are so much less fun!

Thread title: Fare passes (760371)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:21:53 1997, by Peter Rosa

Subject: Fare passes
Message Number: 760371
Posted by: Peter Rosa
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:21:53 1997

The new MetroCard passes have been announced, to start during 1998. Each will allow unlimited rides for a specific time period. Monthly passes will be $63, weeklies $17, and dailies $4. As I read it, these passes will be a better deal for city residents (and visitors) than for suburban commuters. This price structure may be seen as evening out the perceived financial bias against subway users, which results from the fact that subway riders pay a significantly higher share of the total costs of their rides than do suburbanites riding commuter rail (yes, that's a complex issue, I'm only noting the common perception). For the typical suburban commuter, who rides the subway twice each business day, the weekly and daily passes will be more expensive than buying individual fares. Monthly passes might be a better deal depending on how many workdays there are in a month, though it will be close either way.
- Subject: Re: Fare passes
- Message Number: 760384
- Posted by: aaron
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:22:35 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Fare passes posted by Peter Rosa on December 08, 1997 at 16:29:27: Yes, but LIRR is offering 9 percent discount on monthly tickets if you buy $60 metrocard. That is a very good deal, except metrocard expires at end of month.
  - Subject: Re: Fare passes
  - Message Number: 760385
  - Posted by: Peter Rosa
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:22:38 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: Fare passes posted by aaron on December 09, 1997 at 09:16:28: >Yes, but LIRR is offering 9 percent discount on monthly tickets if you >buy $60 metrocard. That is a very good deal, except metrocard expires >at end of month. Whether or not the LIRR deal is worthwhile depends on the number of workdays in the month and the amount of your LIRR ticket. For instance, a 9% savings on my monthly ticket from Patchogue is about $19. Assuming I rode the subway twice a day, I could miss up to 6 workdays in a month ("losing" $18 in subway fares, given the MetroCard's expiration) and still come out ahead. If I came from a closer station and paid , say $150 a month, the 9% savings would be $13.50 and I could miss 4 workdays a month. So in deciding whether to use the 9% discount, commuters will have to take into account such factors as vacation plans, time spent out of the office, holidays, etc. No doubt some people will find the convenience justification enough that they'll go for the 9% discount even though it might not actually save them anything. BTW - I'll have to skip the 9% deal, as I normally walk to Penn Stations in the evening and therefore only use about $30 in subway fares a month.
    - Subject: Re: Fare passes
    - Message Number: 760386
    - Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
    - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:22:40 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Fare passes posted by Peter Rosa on December 08, 1997 at 16:29:27: A $4 all day bus/subwway pass sounds like a dream come true! When I visit NYC I sometimes use 6-8 fares in a day. Even when our whole family visits for a weekend (we're down here near DC), we use at least 3 fares per person most days. Charging just a drop more than what a commuter would pay for a round trip per day is just perfect. It may encourage people to use the subway and busses a bit more. Even Philadelphia's all-day pass is $5.00. Washington's is $5.00 but is only good after 9:30 AM on weekdays (all day weekends) so that visitors will be the main user and is good on the rail lines only. Baltimore's is $3.00 but, then again Baltimore is not a transit city that much.
      - Subject: Re: Fare passes
      - Message Number: 760395
      - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
      - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:23:04 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Fare passes posted by aaron on December 09, 1997 at 09:16:28: Here I go throwing a wet blanket on all your collective enthusiasm, but consider these known facts: They want to get rid of token vendors. There has been no guarantee of stable token prices, just "lower fares". Therefore, I forsee an increase in token prices next year which will make the passes more competitive, thus increasing their use and lowering token demand. Then it's just one more step to rationalize that the "average" use of a pass is three rides a day, so a daily pass represents a $1.34 fare, which is less than the former $1.50, therefore, promise kept! Cost of a token? I bet $2!!!
        
        Subject: Re: Fare passes
        Message Number: 760396
        Posted by: Peter Rosa
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:23:06 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Fare passes posted by Gary Jacobi on December 09, 1997 at 11:55:02: The TA in fact does intend to phase out the token-booth clerks. Once MetroCard vending machines have been installed in all the stations, according to the plan the booths would be closed. The clerks would reassigned to work in the stations as a sort of customer service assistant, similar to those in the Washington Metro. This plan may be subject to change. In particular, selling the monthly passes via machine could be difficult, due to the number of bills that would be required. Anyhow, delivery of the machines is still quite a ways off.
        
        Subject: Re: Fare passes
        Message Number: 760431
        Posted by: John M.
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:24:31 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Fare passes posted by Peter Rosa on December 08, 1997 at 16:29:27: One question: will there be a mechanism to prevent me from buying one pass, going through the turnstile, and handing the pass over the turnstile to my friend? Willthey restrict multiple usages within, say, a five minute period?
        
        Subject: Re: Fare passes
        Message Number: 760460
        Posted by: Bill from Staten Island
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:26:16 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Fare passes posted by John M. on December 10, 1997 at 10:34:00: After using the card there is a lockout of 6 to 8 min. this is to prevent passing the card and swiping it again. It is built into the the Metro card system.
        
        Subject: Re: Fare passes
        Message Number: 760472
        Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:27:09 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Fare passes posted by Bill from Staten Island on December 11, 1997 at 08:24:07: The 8-minute waiting period is not built into regular Metro Cards. I use one card to get the whole family through in 4 swipe-and-walk-through actions and it subtracts 4 fares, one at a time. When we use it on the bus as a transfer, the machine says that all four were transferred on one swipe of the card.
        
        Subject: Re: Fare passes
        Message Number: 760491
        Posted by: Bill from Staten Island
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:28:20 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Fare passes posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 11, 1997 at 10:20:10: I think if the new fare system goes through they might have a multiuse restriction put on the card. I know TA employees have a time restriction on their cards so it would be no problem for them to put it on the new cards if it goes through.
        
        Subject: Re: Fare passes
        Message Number: 760496
        Posted by: Kevin Walsh
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:28:40 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Fare passes posted by Peter Rosa on December 09, 1997 at 09:34:13: Crazy George's $63 per month for unlimited use does little for the subway rider who just rides the train to and from work 10 times per week. I believe you have to take 44 rides a month to see any benefit at all. --I use the train about 15 to 20 times a month, so I am unable to get any benefit whatever from this plan. Much better would've been 12 rides for the price of ten, which, in typical MTA fashion, was dismissed by Virgil Conway as giving away too may rides...
        
        Subject: Re: Fare passes
        Message Number: 760499
        Posted by: anthony pardi
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:28:52 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Fare passes posted by Kevin Walsh on December 11, 1997 at 20:28:01: lets see daily weekly and monthly passes hmmm a daily pass with unlimited use and no restriction or a weekly no restriction or a monthly no restriction. which would be up for abuse of the pass a $4 daily pass with no restriction except for the 24hour period of the pass someone buys a Daily pass for $4 and swipes people thru and colects tokens or what ever they wish to charge for the privelege. just like students now do with their passes they collect a token or 1.50 and swipe someone thru with their school passes. isn't it great to see where our tax dollars are going!!!!

Thread title: Re: What's Your Daily Commute? (SEPTA Style) (760372)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:21:56 1997, by Michael S. Buglak

Subject: Re: What's Your Daily Commute? (SEPTA Style)
Message Number: 760372
Posted by: Michael S. Buglak
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:21:56 1997

In Reply to: [7]What's Your Daily Commute? posted by GAR on December 05, 1997 at 23:45:51: I usually take SEPTA's R6 train from Norristown, PA into Penn Center-Suburban Station in Center City Philly.I usually get the only express trip on the line, leaving Norristown @ 7:06a & arriving @ Suburban Station @ 7:41a. Returning, I get out at 5:14p & arrive back in Norristown @ 5:49p. Until I got my driver's license this year, I also had to take a SEPTA Route 93 bus from my hometown of Collegeville to Norristown. (I caught the bus @ 6:11a & arrived in Norristown @ 6:37a, returning from Norristown @ 6:00p & arriving in Collegeville @ 6:27p). Since this route only runs once an hour, I had to be VERY careful about getting to the bus stop on time!) My cost of communting is $109.50 for a Zone 3 monthly SEPTA TrailPass. (This pass is also good on any SEPTA vehicle.) I can also take the Route 100 trolley from Norristown to 69th Street, & change to the Market-Frankford Line to Center City. It comes out about the same in trip time & cost...I switched when SEPTA put the new N5 cars on line & also changed the timetable just enough so thst I couldn't make the bus in the PM. (So there is another case of a bus-trolley-subway commute!) Regards, Michael S. Buglak, Collegeville, PA
- Subject: Re: What's Your Daily Commute? (SEPTA Style)
- Message Number: 760373
- Posted by: Bobw
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:22:00 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Re: What's Your Daily Commute? (SEPTA Style) posted by Michael S. Buglak on December 08, 1997 at 17:04:16: Not so great, but by transit nonetheless - SEPTA Route 27 express bus to Center City in the AM, back in the PM. It would be nice if the bus dumped us off at Wissahickon on the R6 at transfer rates instead of trying to go to Center City on the Schuylkill Expressway... Of course, I could do this if it were convenient and not so costly.

Thread title: Student Subway Passes (760375)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:22:07 1997, by Adam

Subject: Student Subway Passes
Message Number: 760375
Posted by: Adam
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:22:07 1997

Does anybody know the rules for using these student subway passes? Do they have a specific time during the day during which they work or do they work all the time? Also, are there only specific stations they can be used at or are they (student metrocards) accepted anywhere? Thanks for answering these questions.
- Subject: Re: Student Subway Passes
- Message Number: 760377
- Posted by: Philip E. Dominguez
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:22:13 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Student Subway Passes posted by Adam on December 08, 1997 at 21:51:36: Full Fare Student Metro-cards can be used on both trains and buses. They are usable between 5:30 am and 8:30 pm. They have a limit of 3 uses a day on moday and friday. You can transfer from train to bus or Bus to train for free withen a 2 hour time limit. The Half fare passes are only useable on the bus.
  - Subject: Re: Student Subway Passes
  - Message Number: 760378
  - Posted by: David L.
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:22:15 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Student Subway Passes posted by Adam on December 08, 1997 at 21:51:36: The times you can use the student metrocard are from Monday through Friday from 5:30 AM to 8:30 PM. They even work on holidays that are on weekdays. There are no specific stations that it can be used at. In fact they even work for subway to bus, and bus to subway transfers. Each day you are allowed 3 fares. This is how the student metrocard looks like. (I have covered some info that was on the back for obvious reasons) [INLINE] [INLINE]

Thread title: Re: What's Your Daily Commute? INTERCOM?? (760388)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:22:44 1997, by Lou

Subject: Re: What's Your Daily Commute? INTERCOM??
Message Number: 760388
Posted by: Lou
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:22:44 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: What's Your Daily Commute? posted by Jeffrey from Brooklyn on December 08, 1997 at 20:46:36: R40 slants don't have any intercom's. Crew has to use the PA or the buzzer. Did you mean something else?

Thread title: Re: Canarsie Line (from prev. posts) MS SUBWAY (760389)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:22:46 1997, by Lou

Subject: Re: Canarsie Line (from prev. posts) MS SUBWAY
Message Number: 760389
Posted by: Lou
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:22:46 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Canarsie Line (from prev. posts) posted by Mark S Feinman on December 08, 1997 at 13:56:23: The R900 subway came to a skreeching halt. This brand new car from Microsoft just broke down for the 1000th time. Then, the Microsoft engineer, not knowing much about anything, comes up with a suggestion, "Why don`t we close all the windows, get out, get back in, open the windows again, and maybe it`ll work !?"

Thread title: Re: Student Subway Passes/Restrictions (760399)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:23:19 1997, by Wayne Johnson

Subject: Re: Student Subway Passes/Restrictions
Message Number: 760399
Posted by: Wayne Johnson
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:23:19 1997

In Reply to: [7]Re: Student Subway Passes posted by Philip E. Dominguez on December 08, 1997 at 23:08:30: It's certainly understandable for the NYCTA to restrict the useage of sutdent passes. I fondly look back on my High School days in the 80's when bus & train passes were vaild school days from 6 AM to 7 PM and we pretty much used it as a unlimited ride pass. I was a transit buff at the time also and each day (after homework) I would ride several MABSTOA bus routes to run errands, visit friends or simply ride to be riding. We were supposed to pay 5 cents with our bus passes, and most MABSTOA bus operators (except 132st, 54th St and Hudson) wouldn't ask you to pay. It was great as you only had to make sure you were on your final bus by 7 PM.
- Subject: Re: Student Subway Passes/Restrictions
- Message Number: 760425
- Posted by: Lou
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:24:19 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: Student Subway Passes/Restrictions posted by Wayne Johnson on December 09, 1997 at 13:10:52: I too went to Public High School (Staten Island) at the time and used the bus passes that way. Once I made the basketball team I swtich to the SI Railway and it's pass (you had to list the stations on the face of the pass) becuase the late practices/games and the lack of Bus Service at Tottenville HS and you did not have to pay a nickle, you paid up front each month to get the pass at a dime a school day for the month. One late practice missing the 7pmish train I had my pass taken away by the conductor because I did not have the full fare to pay him (it was the next train after the one that was just before 7pm). I had to go to St. George the next day to get it back. I am glad they extended the hours on the student passes.
  - Subject: Re: Student Subway Passes/Restrictions
  - Message Number: 760444
  - Posted by: Adam
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:25:08 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: Student Subway Passes/Restrictions posted by Wayne Johnson on December 09, 1997 at 13:10:52: But one main difference between the bus and train passes that we used to have in high school and the ones they have now is that the new ones are interchangeable between the bus and the subway. The older passes were assisgned specifically to either the bus or subway and they looked much different from each other. Most of the time you could get one or the other but not both at the same time unless you lived in a two fare zone. Unfortunately, the bus was the only way back home from school so I was never able to ride the subway for free (unless I borrowed my friend's pass!).
    - Subject: Re: Student Subway Passes/Restrictions
    - Message Number: 760447
    - Posted by: Wayne Johnson
    - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:25:22 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: Student Subway Passes/Restrictions posted by Adam on December 10, 1997 at 15:54:29: Yes, it's true that almost no one were able to get both passes, but for me I preferred the bus pass becuase it allowed you more of the borough. Also later the Transit police would look at the station name on train passes. On the bus you were free to ride any bus you wanted to. I had a friend in Queens who used to use the Q40 (Green Bus Lines) bus to go to school and his bus pass had "Q40 ONLY" in huge letters stamped on it.
      - Subject: Re: Student Subway Passes/Restrictions
      - Message Number: 760449
      - Posted by: David L.
      - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:25:29 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Student Subway Passes/Restrictions posted by Wayne Johnson on December 09, 1997 at 13:10:52: Another advantage that the student Metrocard has over the old passes is that you no longer have to wait on long lines in order to show the token booth clerk your pass.
        
        Subject: Re: Student Subway Passes/Restrictions
        Message Number: 760468
        Posted by: Wayne Johnson
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:26:51 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Student Subway Passes/Restrictions posted by David L. on December 10, 1997 at 18:53:22: Yes, you're right - When I was in High School we just walked by, caught the clerks attention and flashed our pass - or if a Transit P.O. was there we'd show it to him/her.

Thread title: KING GEORGE : Savior of Mass Transit?????? (760401)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:23:25 1997, by Subman23

Subject: KING GEORGE : Savior of Mass Transit??????
Message Number: 760401
Posted by: Subman23
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:23:25 1997

Yesterday's announced revamping of the NYCTA fare structure has assured Governor Pataki's reelection. Subway and bus riders are enthusiastic about the discounts proposed by Pataki. Governor Pataki has announced that these discounts ($63 monthly pass, $17 weekly pass, or $4 for a daily pass; discounted further for seniors and disabled people) will cost about $500 million per year to enact. Even if the Authority does have a $167 million surplus this year, how will $500 million per year be added to the coffers of the TA to pay for these discounts? That is the question that no politically correct person is willing to ask. How soon people forget that Governor Pataki did nothing two years ago when fares were raised from $!.25 to $1.50 and service cuts were enacted. Maybe, I am wrong about Pataki's motives. Is it possible that his photo sessions in the subways have changed his core core beliefs and he has developed a new - found love for the system? Hopefully, I am wrong about the governor's re election motives when he announced these fare discounts. Maybe "King George" will be willing to fork over hundreds of millions of dollars to the system should his proposals create budget shortfalls. Afterall, Pataki and Conway are "Goin Our Way". As a transit worker, who has dedicated my career to the turnaround of the New York City transit system, it would hurt me deeply if the Authority is faced with huge budget shortfalls in a year or two because of some politically correct action by a politician to please the arrousal gappers. Hopefully, I am wrong!
- Subject: Re: KING GEORGE : Savior of Mass Transit??????
- Message Number: 760424
- Posted by: Wayne Johnson
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:24:15 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]KING GEORGE : Savior of Mass Transit?????? posted by Subman23 on December 09, 1997 at 16:12:00: You have made some good points here. I think Pataki motivated by the fact that this will certainly help his re-election campaign. Right from the get -go it was clear that Pataki doesn't care too much about downstate, but a vote is a vote no matter what part of the state it comes from. For years I wanted to have these sort of passes for the NYCTA, but we all know it comes with a cost. I'm very concerned about the NYCTA's financial position in say... 1 to 2 years after the fare cards go into effect. By this time the election for Govenor would have taken place and if he is re-elected (gosh) - I'm afraid the he'll simply forget about NYCTA as well as the rest of downstate NY. The system has come along way and still has some ways to go. My fear is that the NYCTA may be cash strapped in a couple of years with nothing to show for the 167 million in surplus funds that existed. ...And then it will really suffer and George will be in Albany saying telling NYC to deal with it.
  - Subject: Re: KING GEORGE : Savior of Mass Transit??????
  - Message Number: 760432
  - Posted by: Philip nasadowski
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:24:33 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: KING GEORGE : Savior of Mass Transit?????? posted by Wayne Johnson on December 10, 1997 at 09:54:20: I am hoping, praying, putting my soul for sale, etc. I really want Pataxi to be a one term gov.
    - Subject: Re: KING GEORGE : Savior of Mass Transit??????
    - Message Number: 760530
    - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
    - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:36:31 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]KING GEORGE : Savior of Mass Transit?????? posted by Subman23 on December 09, 1997 at 16:12:00: Companies that have unplanned profits or surpluses will sometimes invest in themselves to improve or create new products, with the anticipation of even further revenues and profits down the line. The fare cut, however you want to package it, should never have happened. The $167M should have been put to work in rehabilitating infrastructure, completing delayed projects or implementing deferred service improvements. The fare cut is going to be a temporary thing. --Mark

Thread title: if you can't pronounce it, say Ron-Konk-oma (760413)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:23:55 1997, by sdc-foti

Subject: if you can't pronounce it, say Ron-Konk-oma
Message Number: 760413
Posted by: sdc-foti
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:23:55 1997

Yup, Thats my home staion, and I have to drive to exit 66 on the LIE to get closer to my Home, it sucks. Just Pointing out the best way to spell it. Foti-

Thread title: Re: Ronkonkomo to Greenport (Electrification) (760414)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:23:56 1997, by sdc-foti

Subject: Re: Ronkonkomo to Greenport (Electrification)
Message Number: 760414
Posted by: sdc-foti
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:23:56 1997

In Reply to: [6]Ronkonkomo to Greenport posted by Steve on December 07, 1997 at 00:17:39: I rather pay my tax dollars for electrification east of Ronkonkoma (Rnknkma) because there are alot of ppl who would ride it if they had more service. foti-

Thread title: Abandoned Stations & Lines (760417)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:24:02 1997, by Bob Tichacek

Subject: Abandoned Stations & Lines
Message Number: 760417
Posted by: Bob Tichacek
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:24:02 1997

Does anyone have a concise list of the NYC subway stations and/or lines that have been abandoned? I know of the old station at City Hall, and of the line that went to the old Polo Grounds near 155th Stree - but I know that there must be many more!
- Subject: Re: Abandoned Stations & Lines
- Message Number: 760422
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:24:12 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Abandoned Stations & Lines posted by Bob Tichacek on December 10, 1997 at 09:12:25: See [8]Disused and Abandoned Stations - http://www.nycsubway.org/disused/ (here on this site) for photos of many stations and a link to Joe Brennan's complete guide. -Dave

Thread title: Re: Threecarunits...(was Canarsie...) (760419)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:24:06 1997, by Lou from Middletown

Subject: Re: Threecarunits...(was Canarsie...)
Message Number: 760419
Posted by: Lou from Middletown
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:24:06 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Canarsie Line (from prev. posts)MS-haha! posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 09, 1997 at 10:57:38: The three car units are the D units (otherwise known as Triplex) bought by the BMT in 1927. The "multis' were off the system by 1960 or so.I don't believe the D's were ever run on the 14th st line. The real advantage of the Multis was that they could also run on unimproved el lines as well in the subway...
- Subject: Re: Threecarunits...(was Canarsie...)
- Message Number: 760423
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:24:13 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Re: Threecarunits...(was Canarsie...) posted by Lou from Middletown on December 10, 1997 at 09:38:11: > I don't believe the D's were ever run on the 14th st line Sure they were! For an example, see [8][LINK]BMT D-Type 6112 &c. at Wilson Avenue on the L, 10/17/1965. -Dave
  - Subject: Re: Threecarunits...(was Canarsie...)
  - Message Number: 760426
  - Posted by: Ed Sachs
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:24:21 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: Threecarunits...(was Canarsie...) posted by David Pirmann on December 10, 1997 at 09:52:13: Come on Dave, you really can't count fantrips! (Had to have been a fantrip, as the last rugular service runs of the Triplex cars was in the summer of 65. Also, 10/17/65 was a Sunday!)
    - Subject: Re: Threecarunits...(was Canarsie...)
    - Message Number: 760434
    - Posted by: David Pirmann
    - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:24:38 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: Threecarunits...(was Canarsie...) posted by Ed Sachs on December 10, 1997 at 10:02:12: Hmm, you're right. The last service run was in July '65 some time, now that I think about it. I was on the 30th Anniversary fan trip in '95. Should have remembered. Oh well. Nice picture anyway. -Dave
      - Subject: Re: Threecarunits...(was Canarsie...)
      - Message Number: 760439
      - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
      - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:24:53 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Threecarunits...(was Canarsie...) posted by David Pirmann on December 10, 1997 at 11:06:42: Did the fantrip Triplex run all the way South to Canarsie, or did it cut off at Bway Jct? The restricted section should have been the light El structure south of Sutter Ave.
        
        Subject: Re: Threecarunits...(was Canarsie...)
        Message Number: 760479
        Posted by: Ed Sachs
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:27:34 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Threecarunits...(was Canarsie...) posted by Gary Jacobi on December 10, 1997 at 13:58:42: I don't think that there are any weight restrictions on the Canarsie line. The Multisection lightweight units were purchased for service on the 14th St - Fulton St. line, which ran to Lefferts Blvd. (Ave?) via the Fulton St. El. The section of the El from Atlantic Ave. to Grant Ave. had never been rebuilt, and thus could not take the weight of normal subway cars. Also, I believe that the tight S-curve at Euclid Ave. could not take a 67' car. After the IND was extended to Lefferts Blvd and the Rockaways, the Multisection cars were used in rush hour sevice on the Myrtle-Chambers (now M) line. I understand that by the time this happended, they had become a maintenance headache, and they needed constant tinkering to make one or two round trips each morning and evening rush hour. They were retired in 1961.
        
        Subject: Re: Threecarunits...(was Canarsie...)
        Message Number: 760548
        Posted by: Quigebo
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:37:24 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Threecarunits...(was Canarsie...) posted by Ed Sachs on December 11, 1997 at 12:39:28: So that's why they were scrapped. I thought the TA just didn't believe in articulated units. BTW, the MS units are five-section units, and I really think they're a natural for the Canarsie line. If they can take curves faster than any traditional car, then why not give them another shot. Adtranz makes a three-section unit for the Stockholm subway. The TA ought to test it on the J, L, or M. It looks nice too. There's a picture of it at www.adtranz.com

Thread title: Re: Fare passes:Amen to that,Brother! (760421)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:24:10 1997, by Lou from Middletown

Subject: Re: Fare passes:Amen to that,Brother!
Message Number: 760421
Posted by: Lou from Middletown
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:24:10 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Fare passes posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 09, 1997 at 09:41:15: AS another day-tripper,I agree whole heartedly with that! Now, istead of counting fares left, and trying to figure out my route, all I got to do is walk down inthe hole or on the bus!! I really hate to say this- but thanks George-'bout time!!!!

Thread title: Re: Fare passes = FAIR Pass (760427)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:24:23 1997, by Lou

Subject: Re: Fare passes = FAIR Pass
Message Number: 760427
Posted by: Lou
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:24:23 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Fare passes posted by Gary Jacobi on December 09, 1997 at 11:55:02: I use the subway a lot during the day (more than 2 trips a day) for work. Not that I would use my monthly pass and still get work to pay me back for the trip on their buisness!! Even looking over that, this Subway user would save A LOT of money on a monthly pass, even if I was sick for a week, I think I would still save money from my weekend travel as well.

Thread title: Re: What's Your Daily Commute? BORING?? (760429)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:24:27 1997, by Lou From Brooklyn

Subject: Re: What's Your Daily Commute? BORING??
Message Number: 760429
Posted by: Lou From Brooklyn
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:24:27 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: What's Your Daily Commute? posted by Daniel A. Valles on December 09, 1997 at 21:10:38: Head end ride from Journal Square to WTC boring?? Wait till the new PATH cars with full cabs (get rid of the conductor type). No more headend riding just like the Subway....
- Subject: Re: What's Your Daily Commute? BORING??
- Message Number: 760442
- Posted by: Daniel A. Valles
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:25:02 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Re: What's Your Daily Commute? BORING?? posted by Lou From Brooklyn on December 10, 1997 at 10:17:44: Lou: I have been waiting for this for about 5 years... I miss living in the city... I used to live by the Kingsbridge stations by the 4,C, and D in the Bronx... If I rode the 4, I would see one of the most beautiful sites in the city after the train left the 161st Street station: YANKEE STADIUM! And once you are on the 4, after it leaves 125th Street, it makes one of the fastest trips to lower Manhattan I have ever seen...

Thread title: Re: Ronkonkoma to Greenport (760430)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:24:29 1997, by John M.

Subject: Re: Ronkonkoma to Greenport
Message Number: 760430
Posted by: John M.
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:24:29 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: What's Your Daily Commute? posted by Peter Rosa on December 06, 1997 at 21:19:55: Ah, commuting from my old area. I used to live close to Patchogue, but I would drive to Ronkonkoma becuase of that fast express in the morning (Ronk-Central Islip-Brentwood (I think), Penn Station), there was no train change, and the equipment was newer. I found the ride quite pleasant, actually, and since my job was pretty much 9-5, I could catch the express back. Of course, this was before they built all that extra parking, so you had to park a mile from the station. Actually, Sayville became an option when, sometime in the late '80's, they added a 7:26, which runs express to Jamaica. Before that, you had to catch a 7:00 train which made every local stop to Babylon. I think the spur from Ronkonkoma to MacArthur is a great idea, although assuming it was proposed, it would garner substantial community opposition, as folks out there don't want the airport to become larger. Also, what do you guys think of the new, improved Ronkonkoma station (i.e. the little village they built)? Ithough it was nice the last time I was there. Finally, how about electrifying the line from Babylon to Patchogue?

Thread title: Explosion at Fulton St. - IRT (760436)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:24:43 1997, by Charles Fiori

Subject: Explosion at Fulton St. - IRT
Message Number: 760436
Posted by: Charles Fiori
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:24:43 1997

The fire department saya an explosion has been reported in the Fulton St. and Broadway subway station in Manhattan. A fire department spokesman saya 2 people are being treated...for difficulty breathing, and the tunnel is full of heavy smoke. The apparent explosion was reported at 12:19pm. The FD says the cause...has not been determined, but could be a number of things, such as an electric arc from a mechanical malfunction. (((Courtesy UPI, through the Bloomberg system)))

Thread title: To: Mark Feinman>How do you do it? (760437)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:24:45 1997, by Charles Fiori

Subject: To: Mark Feinman>How do you do it?
Message Number: 760437
Posted by: Charles Fiori
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:24:45 1997

In Reply to: [6]Links to Articles (was Re: re: transit surplus) posted by Mark S Feinman on December 08, 1997 at 14:25:28: Pls e-mail me at FLUSHING@BLOOMBERG.NET with how you add the addresses to messages like you are so kind to do. It is a nice feature of your communications to this site.

Thread title: Re: KING GEORGE : Savior of Mass Transit!!!!!!! (760440)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:24:57 1997, by Carl M. Rabbin

Subject: Re: KING GEORGE : Savior of Mass Transit!!!!!!!
Message Number: 760440
Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:24:57 1997

In Reply to: [6]KING GEORGE : Savior of Mass Transit?????? posted by Subman23 on December 09, 1997 at 16:12:00: My personal opinion is that, just as allowing train-to-bus and bus-to-train transfers has increased revenues, so will knowing that for a single payment, you've got unlimited rides all day. No more debating whether a taxi is easier or the car is worth the parking fee. I always feel freer in any city when I have an all-day pass. This feeling of freedom will probably cause more people to use mass transit more days of the year. You can take the bus or the train for 2 blocks, transfer as many times as you want. Psychologically it's a little like having a personal chauffer, even though I know that is stretching things a bit. Lowering the price or increasing the accessibility increases use and, often, revenues. Look at MS-DOS vs. all the other failed PC-type operating systems. It wasn't great technical genius that made it ubiquitous. It was simplicity, low price, and licensing to everyone. Same with VHS vs. Beta. VHS was cheaper, just a little lower quality, and licenced to companies other than the inventor, JVC. (But I digress....) Who knows: If the MTA seems cheaper and always accessible for $4 a day, or about $3 per weekday in a $63 month, bus and subway use may increase enough that the MTA may actually have to increase service to match the increased use...

Thread title: valhalla to newark? (760441)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:25:00 1997, by mICHELE kIM

Subject: valhalla to newark?
Message Number: 760441
Posted by: mICHELE kIM
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:25:00 1997

Hi! I'm hoping you can help me. I'm trying to figure out the fastest way to get from Valhalla, NY to Newark, NJ via public transportation. Please respond to the e-mail above. Thanks!
- Subject: Re: valhalla to newark?
- Message Number: 760450
- Posted by: Koi
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:25:37 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]valhalla to newark? posted by mICHELE kIM on December 10, 1997 at 14:25:03: What you can do is to take the Westchester County Bee Line # 40 or 41 Bus (I assume you are starting at the Westchester County Medical Center or NY Medical College. This is where these buses can be picked up.) to the White Plains Trans Center, walk to the MN RR station less than a block away, take that to GCT, then either take the subway or walk to 34th St/6Av. to catch the PATH train which will take you to Newark. Koi
  - Subject: Re: valhalla to newark?
  - Message Number: 760498
  - Posted by: alan
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:28:47 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: valhalla to newark? posted by Koi on December 10, 1997 at 19:32:22: you can go metro-north to gct subway to 33st path to newark or penn sta njt

Thread title: Bus from New Jersey to Staten Island (AGAIN) (760446)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:25:20 1997, by Bootsy

Subject: Bus from New Jersey to Staten Island (AGAIN)
Message Number: 760446
Posted by: Bootsy
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:25:20 1997

I just can't seem to find out anything about this. First, I called 411 directory, asking for Boulivard Transit, Drogin Bus, and Trans-Hudson bus. Each time I got nothing. Then I called NJ Transit, and they gave me the number for what they said was Hudson Bus Transportation. But when I called, it turned out to be Red & Tan, and I asked about NJ-SI busses, they said they didn't serve that market. I called NJ Transit again, this time, they told me to call the MTA, so I called. The MTA operator told me to call Academy. So I called Academy, and, much to my un-surprise, they don't go from NJ to Staten Island, but told me to call Red & Tan!! I also heard that the bus from Jersey City and Bayonne to Staten Island has been discontineud. But if it hasn't been, where does to go from and to??
- Subject: Re: Bus from New Jersey to Staten Island (AGAIN)
- Message Number: 760463
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:26:29 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Bus from New Jersey to Staten Island (AGAIN) posted by Bootsy on December 10, 1997 at 17:47:39: There was a bus from downtown Jersey City (stopped at Exchange Pl. and Grove Street PATH stations) run by Drogin Bus. Drogin went out of business but I'm pretty sure I've seen the buses still running since then. Try calling the Hudson County Transportation Management Assn (www.hudsontma.org). It sounds like something that they would know how to find out.

Thread title: Worth Street (760457)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:26:07 1997, by Adam

Subject: Worth Street
Message Number: 760457
Posted by: Adam
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:26:07 1997

Did anyone go on the Transit Museum tour of Worth Street this past Saturday Dec. 5? If anyone did, can you possibly give the rest of us a brief report how it was and what if anything interesting did you learn? Thanks!
- Subject: Re: Worth Street
- Message Number: 760495
- Posted by: subway-buff
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:28:37 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Worth Street posted by Adam on December 11, 1997 at 01:00:23: They canceled Worth Street due to "Debris on the platform". We saw 14th and lex(Park ave so.), Astor Place, Wall street(lex line), S Ferry Inner loop and City Hall BMT lower level. Waste of time- duplicate of former "Curios of lower East side IRT Tour)
  - Subject: Re: Worth Street
  - Message Number: 760529
  - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:36:29 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: Worth Street posted by subway-buff on December 11, 1997 at 18:49:38: Did they take you to the abandoned 14th St local platform?? --Mark
    - Subject: Re: Worth Street
    - Message Number: 760541
    - Posted by: subway-buff
    - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:36:51 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: Worth Street posted by Mark S Feinman on December 12, 1997 at 12:55:03: No t0 14th side platforms, But they did repeat the spiel from the "curios" tour about the proximity sensors and the moving platforms. The only new thing wass no "standr clear of the moving platform..." spiel!

Thread title: Miami Metrowhatsit (760459)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:26:13 1997, by Nathan

Subject: Miami Metrowhatsit
Message Number: 760459
Posted by: Nathan
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:26:13 1997

Ok, I was recently (last week) in Florida and I have a couple of questions: 1)What is the daily patronage of the Miami elvated metro (I forget what it's called, I mix it up with that downtown people mover). I noticed that the trains did not seem very full at all. 2)What is the line speed of the above system? The trains weren't going incredibly fast or anything. 3)Do the tri-rail trains go any farther than West Palm Beach?? Anyway, I'm starting to crave british railways again, I mean all the new trains, newly painted trains, consumer oriented trains, and where else can you find suburban commuter trains with line speeds of 100mph, like on Connex's gatwick-rugby line?? Damn north american transit planners to hell!
- Subject: Re: Miami Metrowhatsit
- Message Number: 760476
- Posted by: Gary Jacobi
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:27:27 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Miami Metrowhatsit posted by Nathan on December 11, 1997 at 02:27:42: Please ease up on the Transit Planners! They are not the problem; they are capable of designing a great system, but in our country it will never be funded by the politicians unless it can be shown to be close to self-supporting. This is a self defeating test that other more enlightened nations would never impose; Transit is a service that makes for a better society. Does anyone require that the police show a profit?
  - Subject: Re: Miami Metrowhatsit
  - Message Number: 760501
  - Posted by: Joe-M
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:28:59 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Miami Metrowhatsit posted by Gary Jacobi on December 11, 1997 at 12:07:00: Too bad highway planners don't have to build facilities that are close to self supporting. The amount of cash spent on street repairs, cleaning, snow plowing, and cosntruction to subsidise auto travel is outragous. Fuel taxes and tolls pay for some but most of the funds come from local taxes. Streets and roads are much more heavily subsidised than transit. In a level playing field there would be more transit constructed so that service levels would be convinent and easy to use. No need for a car, gas stations tires insurance advertising to sell all of the above. ( I wonder what the comparison is between one car companies annual advertising budget and all FTA funds?) Oh well sorry about the soap box. I am preaching to the choir here aren't I.

Thread title: #7 Line - Built to Handle BMT-Type Cars? (760461)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:26:22 1997, by Mike Rothenberg

Subject: #7 Line - Built to Handle BMT-Type Cars?
Message Number: 760461
Posted by: Mike Rothenberg
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:26:22 1997

I've read about, but don't fully understand, what "dual contracts" means. I think I read that it involved IRT/BMT joint construction of the Astoria and Flushing lines. In the "old" days, what trains from Manhattan (subways & el's) ran through Queens Paza onto each set of those Queens lines? If the #7 line was built to handle BMT-type cars, were the platforms widened to reduce the gap for the IRT trains now used? Would be possible to run BMT-type trains on it, replacing the #7 rush hour expresses, switching to BMT tracks @ Queens Plaza, then run them down Broadway to City Hall or Whitehall(express between Canal and 57th St.)? This would eliminate train changes for many.
- Subject: Re: #7 Line - Built to Handle BMT-Type Cars?
- Message Number: 760464
- Posted by: Julio Perez
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:26:33 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]#7 Line - Built to Handle BMT-Type Cars? posted by Mike Rothenberg on December 11, 1997 at 08:40:24: I don't think BMT-type cars can travel west of Queensboro Plaza. The curves between QbP and Hunters Point Boulevard are pretty tight and eliminate that possibility, not to mention the curves between 5th Avenue and Times Square in Manhattan.
  - Subject: Re: #7 Line - Built to Handle BMT-Type Cars?
  - Message Number: 760467
  - Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:26:49 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: #7 Line - Built to Handle BMT-Type Cars? posted by Julio Perez on December 11, 1997 at 08:55:14: I believe the question was: Could BMT B'way trains run on the Flushing Line east of Queensboro Plaza, i.e., towards Main Street? Part of the the answer to the original historical question is that when the Astoria and Flushing Lines were owned jointly by he IRT and BMT, IRT-size trains ran on everything East/North of Queensboro Plaza. When the Astoria Line became BMT only, the platfroms were cut back to allow the wider trains through. I believe that 2nd Avenue El trains went over the Queensboro (59 St) Bridge to the Flushing and Astoria Lines at one time. I personally do not believe that having a different version of a train to every possible destination is a good idea. I like the idea that all #7s go to Times Sq, all Ns go down Broadway. This way, a passenger takes whatever comes along, then switches if necessary. I would say the the typical New Yorker does this anyway: take the first train you can then switch at the last possible moment when there is the largest number of trains available to your destination. Just my opinion and experience, though.
    - Subject: Re: #7 Line - Built to Handle BMT-Type Cars?
    - Message Number: 760473
    - Posted by: Ed Sachs
    - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:27:18 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]#7 Line - Built to Handle BMT-Type Cars? posted by Mike Rothenberg on December 11, 1997 at 08:40:24: Prior to 1949, both BMT and IRT trains served both the Astoria and Flushing lines. IRT trains ran through to Times Square (and, prior to 1941, to South Ferry via the 2nd Ave. El across the Queensboro Bridge), and BMT trains terminated at Queensboro Plaza for connection with subway trains to Manhattan. The BMT used rebuilt El cars which were of IRT width. When the 1949 changes happened, the platforms on the Astoria line were cut back to accommodate the wider BMT subway cars and the north (BMT) half of the Queensboro Plaza station was abandoned (torn down in 1964). West of Queensboro Plaza, the #7 line cannot acommodate BMT-size cars due to the narrow clearences in the Steinway tunnels under the East River (independent of the station platforms). I would guess that East of Queensboro Plaza, the only thing preventing BMT-size cars from running is the platform clearences.
      - Subject: Re: #7 Line - Built to Handle BMT-Type Cars?
      - Message Number: 760489
      - Posted by: Quigebo
      - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:28:14 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: #7 Line - Built to Handle BMT-Type Cars? posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 11, 1997 at 09:52:47: What about Main Street which is underground? Are its tunnels wide enough to handle larger trains? And why was it built underground in the first place?
        
        Subject: Re: #7 Line - Built to Handle BMT-Type Cars?
        Message Number: 760490
        Posted by: John Stewart
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:28:18 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: #7 Line - Built to Handle BMT-Type Cars? posted by Ed Sachs on December 11, 1997 at 10:50:10: What happened to the BMT lines that terminated at Queensboro Plaza for connection with subway trains to Manhattan after 1949? Were these old elevated lines that were abandoned? Is that why the north (BMT)half of the Queensboro Plaza station was abandoned?
        
        Subject: Re: #7 Line - Built to Handle BMT-Type Cars?
        Message Number: 760528
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:36:27 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: #7 Line - Built to Handle BMT-Type Cars? posted by Quigebo on December 11, 1997 at 15:32:56: It was built underground in anticipation of an extension further east into Queens. It never happened. Legend has it that there is a 1/2 mile of tunnel behind the terminal wall. --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: #7 Line - Built to Handle BMT-Type Cars?
        Message Number: 760545
        Posted by: Quigebo
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:37:13 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: #7 Line - Built to Handle BMT-Type Cars? posted by Mark S Feinman on December 12, 1997 at 12:50:29: But can these tunnels handle BMT cars?

Thread title: Lenox Avenue Reconstruction (760462)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:26:25 1997, by Charles Fiori

Subject: Lenox Avenue Reconstruction
Message Number: 760462
Posted by: Charles Fiori
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:26:25 1997

Today's (12/11) NY Daily News has an article, the cover story, actually, regarding the pain that will ensue when the tunnel/116 St. station is rebuilt.
- Subject: Re: Lenox Avenue Reconstruction
- Message Number: 760586
- Posted by: Serafin Jr
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:39:18 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Lenox Avenue Reconstruction posted by Charles Fiori on December 11, 1997 at 08:46:20: The reason for the reconstuction is that the IRT build the tunnel over a stream Bed. The stream still run and it has taken a told to the Walls of the tunnel. Ride The 2 train on a dry day at 116 street and the track are wet. If you stand at the 116 platform looking at the uptown track you will see about 2 inchs of water running between the track at any time. See how clear the water is, that water is from a underground stream. The MTA don't know where the stream starts from. But from what I herd that water is clearer than Tap water. That is hearsaid. I wouldn't drink
  - Subject: Re: Lenox Avenue Reconstruction
  - Message Number: 760596
  - Posted by: David L.
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:39:48 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Lenox Avenue Reconstruction posted by Serafin Jr on December 13, 1997 at 17:50:19: According to Jim Dwyer's book, _Subway Lives_, "When the state built a large office building at 125th Street in Harlem in the 1970's, the foundation displaced several underground streams. These backed into the Lenox Avenue line. A huge apparatus is being installed there-400 'well points' where water will be drawn into a pump and the storm sewer system."

Thread title: Some Answers to Re: Miami Metrowhatsit (760465)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:26:39 1997, by Julio Perez

Subject: Some Answers to Re: Miami Metrowhatsit
Message Number: 760465
Posted by: Julio Perez
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:26:39 1997

In Reply to: [7]Miami Metrowhatsit posted by Nathan on December 11, 1997 at 02:27:42: I can answer at least part of your first two questions. 1. The heavy rail system is called Metrorail. The people mover is called Metromover. (Simple enough.) 2. I do not know the average speeds throughout the Metrorail system. However, I was once told the top speed achievable between the Vizcaya and Coconut Grove stations--the longest uninterrupted straightaway in the current system--is 60 MPH. 3. Not into Tri-Rail, so I can't speak with authority on that one. CLARIFICATI0N ON THE RAIL SYSTEM. Metrorail and Metromover are operated by Miami-Dade Transit Agency, a unit of Miami-Dade County, Florida, and NOT by the City of Miami. Miami is one of about 30 municipalities in Miami-Dade County, and a substantial amount of Metrorail stations run through the city. The entire Metromover system operates in the city of Miami as well.
- Subject: Re: Some Answers to Re: Miami Metrowhatsit
- Message Number: 760469
- Posted by: Tim Speer
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:26:53 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Some Answers to Re: Miami Metrowhatsit posted by Julio Perez on December 11, 1997 at 09:04:33: Didn't the city of Miami cease to exist oficially a year or two ago? I thought it was incorporated into Dade County, and that the city no longer existed as a "soverign" entity. Anyone have more info on this?

Thread title: NJ Transit overcrowding (760466)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:26:45 1997, by Charles Fiori

Subject: NJ Transit overcrowding
Message Number: 760466
Posted by: Charles Fiori
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:26:45 1997

Today's (12/11) Newark Star-Ledger has a good article on NJT's overcrowding problem. Some talk in there about building a tunnel into GCT(!!!???). Find the paper at www.nj.com. Apparently this is a page one story.

Thread title: Re: Some More Answers to Miami Trains and Tri-Rail (760470)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:27:03 1997, by Carl M. Rabbin

Subject: Re: Some More Answers to Miami Trains and Tri-Rail
Message Number: 760470
Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:27:03 1997

In Reply to: [6]Some Answers to Re: Miami Metrowhatsit posted by Julio Perez on December 11, 1997 at 09:04:33: The Miami Metro is 100% elevated and carries about 25,000 people per day, I think, which is not very many. It is all elevated because the land is very sandy and swampy (no underground tunnels could possibly be built). Because it had to be all elevated, the planners decided that there should be one downtown station on the western periphery of downtown, then have an airport-style people mover to traverse, on a smaller and airier elevated track, the rest of downtown. That I believe carries 12-15,000 per day, but I am not sure. I do remember reading that an extension of the Metro Mover was to add 3,000 rides per day, and that at $.25 per ride it would take 30 years to recover the construction cost. The Miami MetroRail run every 5 minutes during rush hour, and every 15 most of the rest of the time. [I have the timetables at home and can look it up if anyone really needs to know.] The Metro Mover supposedly runs every 2 minutes, except when it gets backed up or stuck somewhere, when it's a lot easier to walk. The MetroRail is $1.25, the Metro Mover is $.25, and using both is always a total of $1.25, because there are special turnstiles to go free from Rail to Mover, and $1.00 to go from Mover to Rail. Tri-Rail (named for the 3 counties it runs through: Dade, Broward, Palm Beach) is a commuter train line that runs from near Miami Int. Airport, 8 miles west of downtown, to about 3 miles north of W. Palm Beach, a distance of about 80 miles, on a mainly 1-track line, with green-and-white double-decker cars, and an approximately hourly schedule in each direction. There are many street level rail crossings and the total trip is over 1.5 hours. There is a connection to the Miami MetroRail line in Hialeah, about 7 miles NW of downtown Miami. The idea of Tri-Rail is that the Miami-Ft. Lauderdale-W. Palm Beach area is quite narrow, about 100 miles long and 10 miles wide, so most traffic is N/S along Interstate 95. The Tri-Rail train gives long-distance mobility to people who can't drive long distances to go from town to town through the area, or want to avoid it sometimes. The Tri-Rail track is about 2 miles west of the track that goes from Florda north to New York, so neither interferes with the other. Both have many street-level rail crossings, many of which are near exits off I-95 in Broward and Palm Beach Counties.
- Subject: Re: Some More Answers to Miami Trains and Tri-Rail
- Message Number: 760475
- Posted by: Gary Jacobi
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:27:23 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: Some More Answers to Miami Trains and Tri-Rail posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 11, 1997 at 10:13:31: A great description of the systems, Carl, but it raises one question in my mind; Is the Tri-Rail line new track, and if not, what former railroad built it?
  - Subject: Re: Some More Answers to Miami Trains and Tri-Rail
  - Message Number: 760579
  - Posted by: Nathan
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:38:57 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: Some More Answers to Miami Trains and Tri-Rail posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 11, 1997 at 10:13:31: Only 25 000???! I thought it would be more than that. I guess it is probably more people than the Florida Turnpike handles in a month (!), now, if you want to talk about a waste of money- we were on that highway in the morning rush and there was 3 cars ahead of us, on a five mile straight!! Anyway, if a heavy rail system only carries 25 000 people per day, shouldn't it be classified as light rail? I do know that even Calgary's two-line light rail system carries 115 000 per day, and Vancouver's one line elevated system carries 120 000 per day at two minute headways during rush hour (and politicians are JUST getting around to building another line)

Thread title: Does the City of Miami Still Exist?? (760471)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:27:07 1997, by Carl M. Rabbin

Subject: Does the City of Miami Still Exist??
Message Number: 760471
Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:27:07 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Some Answers to Re: Miami Metrowhatsit posted by Tim Speer on December 11, 1997 at 09:58:11: They had a vote on it in November, and Miami is still the largest city in the county which used to be called Dade County, and which is now officially called Miami-Dade County. If the vote had gone the other way, the City of Miami would have ceased to exist as a municipal government and it would have become just an unincorporated part of Dade County, but it lost, at something like 53%-47%.

Thread title: Re: #7 Line - Built to Handle BMT-Type Cars? QBP? (760474)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:27:20 1997, by Charles Fiori

Subject: Re: #7 Line - Built to Handle BMT-Type Cars? QBP?
Message Number: 760474
Posted by: Charles Fiori
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:27:20 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: #7 Line - Built to Handle BMT-Type Cars? posted by Ed Sachs on December 11, 1997 at 10:50:10: The extra part of QBP did not get torn down until 1964??? I thought it was long gone by then.
- Subject: Re: #7 Line - Built to Handle BMT-Type Cars? QBP?
- Message Number: 760478
- Posted by: Ed Sachs
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:27:31 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Re: #7 Line - Built to Handle BMT-Type Cars? QBP? posted by Charles Fiori on December 11, 1997 at 11:41:32: Yes, it was still there into the early 60's. It was torn down when the #7 line was spruced-up for the 1964 Worlds Fair!
  - Subject: Re: #7 Line - Built to Handle BMT-Type Cars? QBP?
  - Message Number: 760481
  - Posted by: Charles Fiori
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:27:47 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: #7 Line - Built to Handle BMT-Type Cars? QBP? posted by Ed Sachs on December 11, 1997 at 12:29:59: Good Post, Ed. The soft cover book about NY Elevateds has a great description/photo montage, etc. of the QBP complex but I never knew this piece to the puzzle. Thanks!!

Thread title: IRT#7 Curves (760480)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:27:41 1997, by Jim

Subject: IRT#7 Curves
Message Number: 760480
Posted by: Jim
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:27:41 1997

Anyone know why there are so many curves on the IRT#7 line in Queens and Manhattan?
- Subject: Re: IRT#7 Curves
- Message Number: 760516
- Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:36:03 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]IRT#7 Curves posted by Jim on December 11, 1997 at 13:03:34: To make it more fun :-)

Thread title: Canal Street Crosstown (760484)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:27:58 1997, by Chris C.

Subject: Canal Street Crosstown
Message Number: 760484
Posted by: Chris C.
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:27:58 1997

Transfering from the R line to the IRT at Canal street you use a no longer in use train station to get there, what is the history of this station? Was there a Canal Street cross town line? Why don't they put it to use?
- Subject: Re: Canal Street Crosstown
- Message Number: 760488
- Posted by: Quigebo
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:28:12 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Canal Street Crosstown posted by Chris C. on December 11, 1997 at 14:29:35: You must mean the old Canal Street Broadway Express stop. N and Q trains used to stop here before going over the Manhattan Bridge or joining the main Broadway line I believe there was at one time a planned Crosstown line under Canal. I t was to have been part of the proposed Triboro system. which was to have had the Broadway line cross over to Lexington Av at Union Square and continue to Woodlawn and Pelham Bay. Of course, it would have duplicated existing service under Park Av (the original subway), so it wasn't built. The crosstown Canal line was to have gone to the old Hudson terminal (where the World Trade Center is now)
  - Subject: Re: Canal Street Crosstown
  - Message Number: 760497
  - Posted by: Peter Rosa
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:28:43 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: Canal Street Crosstown posted by Quigebo on December 11, 1997 at 15:27:39: That unused line seen at Canal Street allows the N and R trains to get to and from the south side tracks over the Manhattan Bridge. Because of the fiasco that bridge repairs have become, the tracks have been closed since 1990 and probably won't reopen for another five years or so.
    - Subject: Re: Canal Street Crosstown
    - Message Number: 760520
    - Posted by: Walter
    - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:36:13 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Canal Street Crosstown posted by Peter Rosa on December 11, 1997 at 21:46:23: Yes, the Canal St.-station express tracks (through the currently disused station) allow trains to cross over the Manhattan Bridge on the southern pair of tracks (bridge engineers call these the western tracks), but until the Chrystie St. connection was built, these Canal St. tracks led to the northern (eastern) pair over the bridge, and the southern pair led to the BMT Chambers St. station and the Nassau St. loop.

Thread title: Re: Tri-Rail Rails (760485)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:28:02 1997, by Carl M. Rabbin

Subject: Re: Tri-Rail Rails
Message Number: 760485
Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:28:02 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Some More Answers to Miami Trains and Tri-Rail posted by Gary Jacobi on December 11, 1997 at 11:51:54: Personally, I don't know, but it seems to have always been there. They never would have built the thing for this use only.

Thread title: METRA cross-suburb service (was: Re: How does a subway get extended?) (760487)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:28:08 1997, by Alan Follett

Subject: METRA cross-suburb service (was: Re: How does a subway get extended?)
Message Number: 760487
Posted by: Alan Follett
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:28:08 1997

In Reply to: [7]Re: How does a subway get extended? posted by Joe M on December 10, 1997 at 23:57:55: Oops--I think I hit that SUBMIT button a bit too soon. As far as I know, there are no active plans for running METRA service on the UP (C&NW) freight bypass connecting the North Line with Proviso Yard on the West Line by way of O'Hare. The big problem would be that this line goes around O'Hare on the west (and was relocated in the 1950's in connection with airport construction), missing the airport terminal by a couple of miles, and at the opposite side of the airport from the main access roads. Other than suburb-to-airport service (say, Waukegan-O'Hare and Geneva-O'Hare), there wouldn't be much reason for such a line. You may be thinking of the long-discussed plans for running a cross-suburb service farther out from Chicago, via the the Elgin, Joliet & Eastern, connecting the UP-Northwest line with the BNSF line. This has been under somewhat active consideration for several years, but has been stalled by NIMBYism in some of the very well-heeled and politically well-connected communities along the line. It is also by no means clear that there would be a substantial traffic base for this operation.

Thread title: Re: Student Subway Passes/NO LONG LINES!?!? (760493)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:28:29 1997, by Lefty

Subject: Re: Student Subway Passes/NO LONG LINES!?!?
Message Number: 760493
Posted by: Lefty
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:28:29 1997

In Reply to: [7]Re: Student Subway Passes/Restrictions posted by David L. on December 10, 1997 at 18:53:22: in the case of getting on the subway with the old paper passes, the people at the bedford park station near my school would just open up the service gate and everyone would walk right through. in the case of getting on buses, which is what i do every day, it takes forever for everyone to get on because they all have to put the card in instead of just flashing the pass.. i always enter the back of the bus now because i cant stand waiting to get on the front.

Thread title: D-Type Nostalgia Special This Saturday (760494)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:28:35 1997, by James Tesoriero

Subject: D-Type Nostalgia Special This Saturday
Message Number: 760494
Posted by: James Tesoriero
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:28:35 1997

Anyone riding the Nostalgia Special this Saturday from the Transit Museum? They are rolling out the D-Types from the Museum to Coney Island via the Culver, back to W 4th St via Brighton and the Bridge, and then back to the Museum either via A or F. Price is $20, and there is still plenty of space. Call (718) 243-8601. See you there.
- Subject: Re: D-Type Nostalgia Special This Saturday
- Message Number: 760513
- Posted by: Andrew Huie
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:35:58 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]D-Type Nostalgia Special This Saturday posted by James Tesoriero on December 11, 1997 at 18:38:03: I'll probably be there, jockeying for a view from the first car of course! I won't be opening the windows though! 8-)
  - Subject: Re: D-Type Nostalgia Special This Saturday
  - Message Number: 760527
  - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:36:26 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]D-Type Nostalgia Special This Saturday posted by James Tesoriero on December 11, 1997 at 18:38:03: Back from Coney Island via Brighton? Way cool! The last time we did that with the D-types was July 23rd, 1995, 30 years from the day the D-types stopped running in revenue service. However, we hit a signal (or something related to its operation) under Propsect Park and it knocked off a set of door indicator lights. Hope that doesn't happen again. Newer cars are a little more tapered at the top. Unfortunately, I won't be able to go because it's my daughter's 6th birthday. Also, it's gonna be c-c-c-cold! --Mark
    - Subject: Re: D-Type Nostalgia Special This Saturday
    - Message Number: 760604
    - Posted by: Zack
    - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:40:20 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: D-Type Nostalgia Special This Saturday posted by Mark S Feinman on December 12, 1997 at 12:44:58: Take your daughter along on the trip the best of bolth worlds :)

Thread title: Student pass abuse (760500)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:28:55 1997, by A.pardi

Subject: Student pass abuse
Message Number: 760500
Posted by: A.pardi
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:28:55 1997

gee now that the little critters now have a pass giving three rides and in some cases 4 how are the passes being used. while no longer limited to home and school stations and I believe the hours of use are 530am to 7-730pm what ever. two kids enter while one swipes his/hers pass, hand collect lets see swipe their pass and collect someones token or cash. better yet let mom or dad use the pass oh yes its happening ain't it great to see where our tax monies are being wasted...... yes the pass is a great tool for the honest student but to see the out right abuse of a privilege thats correct privilege not a RIGHT is just outragous. i just love seeing the undercover cops doing sweeps and picking up parents and yes grandparents too who are using the childrens schhol passes....
- Subject: Re: Student pass abuse
- Message Number: 760512
- Posted by: Adam
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:35:56 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Student pass abuse posted by A.pardi on December 11, 1997 at 22:02:11: What is the penalty for using somebody else's pass?
  - Subject: Re: Student pass abuse
  - Message Number: 760515
  - Posted by: Wayne Johnson
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:36:02 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Student pass abuse posted by A.pardi on December 11, 1997 at 22:02:11: Re: student pass abuse. No matter what type of system is used, I think it will always be possible to misuse a student pass - unless you have the police watching every set of turnstiles for abusers. I know some adults will use a students pass as they have in the past, but I also believe that the pass abuse will go down from the old days because now you can't use it as a flash pass. Even with the longer hours, I still don't see it getting out of control. Also - I would rather see the police giving priority to preventing crimes over patroling for fare evaders and/or pass abusers
    - Subject: Re: Student pass abuse
    - Message Number: 760521
    - Posted by: Fernando Perez
    - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:36:14 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Student pass abuse posted by Wayne Johnson on December 12, 1997 at 09:34:29: Another feature of these passes as well as the Senior citizen/disabled cards is that they cannot be used two times at the same time. There is a 15 to 20 gap before the card can be used again. Employee passes also have this feature. Thus in the operators display it will say "passback" to let yoiu know of this condition being violated. So it is impossible to pay for two people with these ID's. When I catch students doing this, usually my confiscating the card will usually bring out the owner of the pass in a few minutes time and then I give him a lecture on not trying to fool me! Not before I threathen to keep the pass and have it returned to the school via the depot. A negative result of this feature is that if you are making a quick transfer from one bus to another in less than the window of time, you cannot use the pass again until the 10 or 15 minutes passes, even for a transfer.

Thread title: Re: General Pick (760503)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:35:29 1997, by Wayne Johnson

Subject: Re: General Pick
Message Number: 760503
Posted by: Wayne Johnson
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:35:29 1997

In Reply to: [7]General Pick posted by Fernando Perez on November 27, 1997 at 23:22:53: Interesting!!! I would've guessed that the BX15 would have gone to KB. If it goes through it will be the second time for the BX6 at Amsterdam - My question is do you think Amsterdam will lose any of it's current routes? I'm sure the M116 woould go, but the depot would be awfully crowed during the off hours.
- Subject: Re: General Pick
- Message Number: 760505
- Posted by: Fernando Perez
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:35:39 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Re: General Pick posted by Wayne Johnson on December 01, 1997 at 13:13:05: The M79 will go to Westside depot and the M116 will go to 126St. depot. If this plan goes into effect as planned, all depots will be at 15% above capacity. Meaning that Buses will have to be parked on the streets which Im sure Management is not to happy about.
  - Subject: Re: General Pick
  - Message Number: 760506
  - Posted by: Wayne Johnson
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:35:44 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: General Pick posted by Fernando Perez on December 02, 1997 at 01:49:06: I was thinking about the buses parking on the street and I'm sure no one would be happy with that, but I imagine it would be a bit more of a problem at Amsterdam as I'm sure you realize there is not much stree parking available for street parking near to Amsterdam, unless the DOT reserves more curbside space for the buses. Have you ever passed by 126th Street depot during late nights - It's not nearly as bad as it was before they constructed the off street storage areas, but they still have several buses parked on Second Ave.
    - Subject: Re: General Pick
    - Message Number: 760508
    - Posted by: Fernando Perez
    - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:35:49 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: General Pick posted by Wayne Johnson on December 02, 1997 at 10:53:02: I was at 126 St depot today to see a friend of mine who is a operator there. They now have three off site storage areas for their buses now. As i said in my first posting thier is now rumor that TA is trying to get an extension on the Walnut lease. So we must wait and see whats the dealio.;
      - Subject: General Pick
      - Message Number: 760667
      - Posted by: ____________________________________________________
      - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:45:25 1997

Thread title: Re: NYC Bus Destination Sign Page (760507)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:35:47 1997, by Charles Fiori

Subject: Re: NYC Bus Destination Sign Page
Message Number: 760507
Posted by: Charles Fiori
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:35:47 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: NYC Bus Destination Sign Page posted by chris on November 30, 1997 at 00:44:40: If someone could tell me how to scan my sign collection so as to place the contents on a web page, I'd think about doing it. I have a not-quite-complete set of the orig. red-and-blue signs, a couple of the blue-with-white letters, some black and white side signs (sm. & large), and some from the private companies. A couple from NJT, as well. If anyone has interest in a specific depot, let me know and I will type up the list...
- Subject: NYC Bus Destination Sign Page
- Message Number: 760673
- Posted by: ____________________________________________________
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:45:39 1997
  - Subject: Re: NYC Bus Destination Sign Page
  - Message Number: 760674
  - Posted by: ____________________________________________________
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:45:41 1997
    - Subject: Re: NYC Bus Destination Sign Page
    - Message Number: 760688
    - Posted by: ____________________________________________________
    - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:46:09 1997

Thread title: 2nd Avenue Station (760517)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:36:07 1997, by Chris C.

Subject: 2nd Avenue Station
Message Number: 760517
Posted by: Chris C.
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:36:07 1997

I was wondering about the express tracks in the middle of the Second Avenue station on the F Line. The tracks meet an end at the end of the station. What are they used for? Were they ever used? Did service ever contiue through on these tracks? Was an express planned at one time? or is it just service tracks? What's the deal??? Also, I am trying to find out something about the F line express service in Brooklyn which is no longer running. There is an express station not used, downstairs at Bergan street and a second set of tracks in the middle which bypass Carrol street and the 9th street bridge. I know there was once Express service on this line but I need some history. Was it the 6th Ave. line, (the F) which ran express and the Brooklyn/Queens crosstown, (the G) which ran local? Or was it the other way arond? Or some other variation? Did the Express run all the way to Coney Island? Where did it start? When was it abandoned? Stuff like that.
- Subject: Re: 2nd Avenue Station
- Message Number: 760568
- Posted by: Fernando Perez
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:38:36 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]2nd Avenue Station posted by Chris C. on December 12, 1997 at 10:15:29: As a young boy I remember that at the 2 Av. stop before it was closed off due to a homeless promblem there, trains were often pulled into those two express tracks as far as they could go as in a layup and it seems the tracks went up and curved. I grew up on Delancey Street and use to ride the F all the time
  - Subject: Re: 2nd Avenue Station
  - Message Number: 760600
  - Posted by: Eric B
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:40:01 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]2nd Avenue Station posted by Chris C. on December 12, 1997 at 10:15:29: The tracks at 2nd Av originally went through to the express tracks at Bway-Laf. and W4, but this was severed when the ramp to Chrystie St. was built in the 60's. Before that, the 2 middle tracks were the terminal of the rush-hr F (when the D was running out on the Culver.) Before that, I think there was a time the E used it.

Thread title: Re: 2nd Avenue Station & The Smith Street Subway (760518)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:36:09 1997, by Carl M. Rabbin

Subject: Re: 2nd Avenue Station & The Smith Street Subway
Message Number: 760518
Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:36:09 1997

In Reply to: [6]2nd Avenue Station posted by Chris C. on December 12, 1997 at 10:15:29: Yes, the Bergen St. lower level is for express tracks which are a direct connection with the Jay St. Station. The local tracks come directly from the Hoyt Schermerhorn station. The F switches to the diverging track to run local. Not only is there the 4-track express to Church Avenue, but the express part between 7th Avenue and Church Avenue runs about 1/2 mile away from the 15th St-Prospect Park and Fort Hamilton Pkwy stations under a shortcut tunnel through Prospect Park. Express service is described in the archives from November sometime. Short answer is: F ran express to Kings Highway (local after Church Ave) or C.I. (express to Kings Highway). GG (now G) ran local to Church Ave. Because of complaints, the service was modified a lot, then removed completely. The 2nd Avenue Express tracks were to go under the East River to Williamsburg to replace or augment the Williamsburg Bridge Bway-Bklyn Service, but it never happened.
- Subject: Re: 2nd Avenue Station & The Smith Street Subway
- Message Number: 760526
- Posted by: Mark S Feinman
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:36:24 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Re: 2nd Avenue Station & The Smith Street Subway posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 12, 1997 at 10:23:55: > ... the express part between 7th Avenue and Church Avenue runs about 1/2 > mile away from the 15th St-Prospect Park and Fort Hamilton Pkwy stations > under a shortcut tunnel through Prospect Park. This type of construction, where the express completely diverged from the local and took a more direct route, was an IND first. The only other place on the NY Subway system where this was repeated is on the Queens Blvd Line between Queens Plaza and Roosevelt Ave. The express diverges from the local for a number of stops and rejoins it in a more direct route. The lower level of Bergen St still exists. The station remains but all tile has been removed. Access to the lower level is through a series of doors from the upper level, doors that are usually locked. It's also dimly lit. While we'd all like to see express service restored on the F line, ridership numbers have never been enough to justify it. Express service used to be handled by the D line which ran from 205th St to Coney Island via the Culver Line (current F route from W 4 St). When the Chrystie Street connection opened up, the D was rerouted up the Brighton Line and the F train took its place. The Chrystie St connection allowed access to the 6th Ave line from the North Side of the Manhattan Bridge. --Mark

Thread title: Re: 2nd Avenue Station & The Smith Street Subway (Continued) (760519)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:36:11 1997, by Carl M. Rabbin

Subject: Re: 2nd Avenue Station & The Smith Street Subway (Continued)
Message Number: 760519
Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:36:11 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: 2nd Avenue Station & The Smith Street Subway posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 12, 1997 at 10:23:55: Reviewing my answer, I realized I should have said that this F express service was used from 1967 to the mid 70s maybe, maybe a little longer, and during rush hours only. They may have used it also in the 1930s when it was first built. BTW, the connection to the Culver line at Church Avenue was opened around 1955. A girl I dated lived two blocks away from it, but it was already around for 13 years by then.

Thread title: Re: Student pass abuse COLOR Lights on Turnstile (760522)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:36:16 1997, by Lou from Brooklyn

Subject: Re: Student pass abuse COLOR Lights on Turnstile
Message Number: 760522
Posted by: Lou from Brooklyn
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:36:16 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Student pass abuse posted by Fernando Perez on December 12, 1997 at 11:24:00: I wonder on the turnstile when a Student pass is used if they color dispaly light is turned on like when a reduced fare card is used to show the police (if they are observeing the turnstile) what type of farecard is used. I believe a red light is shown on both sides of the turnstile when a senior reduced farecard is used so when the 24 yr old goes through a cop can stop em.... unless that person is disabled.
- Subject: Re: Student pass abuse COLOR Lights on Turnstile
- Message Number: 760567
- Posted by: Fernando Perez
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:38:33 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Re: Student pass abuse COLOR Lights on Turnstile posted by Lou from Brooklyn on December 12, 1997 at 12:09:55: One night on the 116 Street crosstown a young man paid his fair with a senior citizen pass. When I noticed the picture wasn't him I took the pass out of the farebox and told him that he wasn't supposed to use this card since the only one to use this pass was the one it was issued to on the card picture. I gave it back to him since I really didn't have any recourse since he told me that the owner of the pass knew he had it and he was using it. Then I told him that the information on the card is kept on a computer in Jay St which follows the use of all the cards in the system. At which he got off the bus at the next stop claiming he was on the wrong bus. The only thing I hope was that he didn't get that pass wrongfully and if he did, the pass itself can be "turned off" and invalid for future uses.

Thread title: Culver Express (760523)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:36:18 1997, by Charles Fiori

Subject: Culver Express
Message Number: 760523
Posted by: Charles Fiori
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:36:18 1997

The express tracks into Church Ave. are still used, but only for cold weather lay-ups. Back in the early 80s, when vandalism was most rampant, the amount of glass and graffiti damage which occurred to trains stored there was huge. BTW, when the R46s were delivered in 1976, they still had signs for GGs to Church and Fs to Kings Highway. (Have both in my collection). Check old subway maps to see when Kings Hwy svc ended. I am sure someone out there has as comprehensive selection of old maps as I do!
- Subject: Re: Culver Express
- Message Number: 760525
- Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:36:22 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Culver Express posted by Charles Fiori on December 12, 1997 at 12:10:11: It was about 1985. -Hank
  - Subject: Re: Culver Express
  - Message Number: 760532
  - Posted by: sdc-foti
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:36:34 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Culver Express posted by Charles Fiori on December 12, 1997 at 12:10:11: I'll Have a look tonite, and i'll write back on saturday, Foti-
    - Subject: Re: Culver Express
    - Message Number: 760576
    - Posted by: Earth Dog
    - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:38:50 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Culver Express posted by Charles Fiori on December 12, 1997 at 12:10:11: I have a 1979 edition of the Subway Map (the 75th Anniversary version) that shows peak dircetion only(Am to 179, PM to Coney Island)express service between 18th Ave and Kings Highway only. I believe that express service between 18th Ave and Jay Street ended in 1976-77 at about the same time several other cuts occurred (the end of the K and the SS-South Ferry-shuttle lines, the combining of the EE and N to Queens, and the CC and E rush hour terminal switch). The express service between Kings Highway and 18th Ave ended in 1985 when the center track was taken out of serice for repairs. (It was re-opened in the early 1990s.) According to the most recent F line sked, Kings Highway is still used as a rush hour terminus for a number of selected F trips.

Thread title: Re: What's Your Daily Commute? BORING??#4 (760524)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:36:20 1997, by Lou

Subject: Re: What's Your Daily Commute? BORING??#4
Message Number: 760524
Posted by: Lou
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:36:20 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: What's Your Daily Commute? BORING?? posted by Daniel A. Valles on December 10, 1997 at 15:34:20: Come back to the city on the weekend. Just last weekend the old Red cars normaly on the #5 were on the #4. Something to do with reapairs at the yard (I don't do much IRTing).
- Subject: Re: What's Your Daily Commute? BORING??#4
- Message Number: 760547
- Posted by: Quigebo
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:37:20 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: What's Your Daily Commute? BORING??#4 posted by Lou on December 12, 1997 at 12:26:41: Red cars do operate regularly on the 4, the R33s, but nowhere near as many as on the 2, which has the lion's share of 33s. I suppose this is because they don't have enough R62s, which operate exclusively on the 4. But I think they should send those 33s to the 6 and put the 6's R62As on the 4 (obviously the 6 doesn't have enough 62As, otherwise it wouldn't have R29s, 33s, and 36s). The 6 would then get new R142s just like the 2, 5, and 7. It's very annoying to be waiting for a 5 to go home and just when you think a 5 is coming, it turns out to be another 4 except it's got red cars like the 5. Anybody agree?

Thread title: 98 calender??? (760531)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:36:32 1997, by Lou from Middletown

Subject: 98 calender???
Message Number: 760531
Posted by: Lou from Middletown
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:36:32 1997

Does anyone know if Newkirk is offering a 1998 calender this year?? I haven't seen or heard anything about one..thanks!!
- Subject: Re: 98 calender???
- Message Number: 760534
- Posted by: sdc-foti
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:36:37 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]98 calender??? posted by Lou from Middletown on December 12, 1997 at 13:05:39: Yes, and its out already, you can get one tomorrow at the UTC meeting at Masonic Hall, 19th floor, 23rd and 6th, around 6:30 when doors open. Foti-
  - Subject: Re: 98 calender???
  - Message Number: 760540
  - Posted by: David Pirmann
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:36:48 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]98 calender??? posted by Lou from Middletown on December 12, 1997 at 13:05:39: Yup, it's out. Think I got mine at Shore Line Trolley Museum back in Octoberish. -Dave
    - Subject: Re: 98 calender???
    - Message Number: 760639
    - Posted by: subway-buff
    - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:41:48 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: 98 calender??? posted by sdc-foti on December 12, 1997 at 13:19:24: They have them at the main Transit Musuem gift shop. I got mine on the fall Lo-V Fan tour from the Newkirk Man They are great!

Thread title: Re: How to place hypertext links in SubTalk Posts (760533)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:36:36 1997, by Mark S Feinman

Subject: Re: How to place hypertext links in SubTalk Posts
Message Number: 760533
Posted by: Mark S Feinman
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:36:36 1997

In Reply to: [7]To: Mark Feinman>How do you do it? posted by Charles Fiori on December 10, 1997 at 13:36:52: Figuring that others might be interested in doing this, too, here's how it is done. For the purposes of this example, I will use parenthesis to represent the greater than and less than signs. You simply enter the HTML anchor tag (a) and (/a) to create your hypertext link. For example, if I wanted to create a hypertext link to the yahoo search engine, I could enter a sentence like this: For more information, (a href="http://www.yahoo.com")check out the Yahoo search engine(/a). When submitted, the words "check out the yahoo search engine" become the hypertext lnk to www.yahoo.com because the anchor tag is understood by HTML and converted for you on the fly. The example above will look like this "for real": For more information, [8]check out the Yahoo search engine. You must be extra careful that you don't leave out one of the double quotes or you may get a message "forbidden by rule" if you try to click on the link. This happened to me a few months ago. Hope this helps! --Mark
- Subject: Re: How to place hypertext links in SubTalk Posts
- Message Number: 760550
- Posted by: Brian Wolk
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:37:37 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Re: How to place hypertext links in SubTalk Posts posted by Mark S Feinman on December 12, 1997 at 13:19:05: Let's see if it works: [8]Here is a really cool TTC site!

Thread title: Click Here for Link to MTH O-27 Subway Car (760535)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:36:39 1997, by Mark S Feinman

Subject: Click Here for Link to MTH O-27 Subway Car
Message Number: 760535
Posted by: Mark S Feinman
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:36:39 1997

In Reply to: [7]Re: O-27 Subway Car? posted by wsteil on December 10, 1997 at 18:46:32: Click [8]here for a link to the MTH web site. --Mark

Thread title: Lenox Ave Reconstruction:Day 2 (760536)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:36:41 1997, by Charles Fiori

Subject: Lenox Ave Reconstruction:Day 2
Message Number: 760536
Posted by: Charles Fiori
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:36:41 1997

Thanks to Mark S. Feinman, I now know how to change these ideas into hyperlinks. Let's see if it works. [6]Follow Ups: * [7]Re: Lenox Ave Reconstruction:Day 2 _Gary Jacobi_ _17:27:19 12/12/97_ (0)
- Subject: Re: Lenox Ave Reconstruction:Day 2
- Message Number: 760546
- Posted by: Gary Jacobi
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:37:15 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Lenox Ave Reconstruction:Day 2 posted by Charles Fiori on December 12, 1997 at 13:42:36: No, it didn't work. I knew it sounded too easy. Maybe Mark has software that we don't have?

Thread title: SUBWAYS IN GENERAL, FOLKS (760538)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:36:44 1997, by KRYLLYN

Subject: SUBWAYS IN GENERAL, FOLKS
Message Number: 760538
Posted by: KRYLLYN
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:36:44 1997

HELLO. THIS IS THE FIRST OF MANY COLUMNS ON SUBWAYS THAT I THINK YOU WILL FIND INTERESTING. I WILL TALK TO YOU ABOUT THE "GREAT" NEW YORK CITY SUBWAY SYSTEM. I HAVE RIDEN THE SYSTEM AND I THINK THAT IT IS MORE INTERESTING THAN NYC ITSELF! I LOVE THE WAY NEW YORKERS REFER TO THE SYSTEM AS IT USED TO BE CALLED( I.E. IRT, IND, BMT) AND LOVE SEEING THE TRAINS IN THE STATIONS. THE PROBLEM IS, I AM A STATEN ISLANDER AND GET REALLY PISSED HAVING TO TAKE A FERRY TO MANHATTAN OR CROSS THE VERRAZANO BRIDGE TO BROOKLYN( APLACE I DON'T MIND VISITING ANYWAY.) NOW CURRENTLY THERE ARE 25 NUMBERED OR NAMED SUBWAY LINES. THE IRT IS ALL NUMBERED LINES. THE IND IS ALL LINES IN A BLUE SPHERE AND ALL OTHER TRAINS ARE THE BMT. THERE ARE 5 IDEAS FOR S.I. LINES-THE 8 TRAIN, THE H,I,K AND P TRAINS. OTHER LETTERS ARE ALITTLE STUPID. I DONT THINK IT IS FAIR TO US S.I.'S BECAUSE LAST CENSUS I CHECKED, WE WERE PART OF NEW YORK CITY!!!!!!!! IF IT TRULY IS THE NEW YORK SUBWAY THEN IT SHOULD SERVE ALL NEW YORK CITY. THANK YOU.
- Subject: Re: SUBWAYS IN GENERAL, FOLKS
- Message Number: 760539
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:36:46 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]SUBWAYS IN GENERAL, FOLKS posted by KRYLLYN on December 12, 1997 at 15:59:15: Hey, stop SHOUTING. The distinction between IND and BMT is not as simple as you make it out to be. It works like this: In Manhattan: A,B,C,D,E,F - IND **** N,R,L,J,M,Z - BMT In Bronx - all lettered lines IND In Queens - Queens Boulevard lines (E,F,G,R) and Rockaway Line IND *** N to Astoria BMT In Brooklyn - A,C,G and F to Church/Ditmas - IND *** N,R,B,F,D,L,J,M,Z, Franklin Shuttle BMT The connections built in and after 1949 which connect former BMT and former IND segments are where the divisions now are blurred-- the Chrystie St. connection which connects the BMT Manhattan and Williamsburgh Bridge lines to the IND 6th Avenue Subway, and the short tunnel connecting 60th Street to Queens Boulevard (current R train). The "subway to Staten Island" debate has been going on since the 1920s or so. It's unlikely you'll ever see it built either because of cost or NIMBY or whatever.
  - Subject: Re: SUBWAYS IN GENERAL, FOLKS
  - Message Number: 760544
  - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:37:07 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]SUBWAYS IN GENERAL, FOLKS posted by KRYLLYN on December 12, 1997 at 15:59:15: In case Dave's message, below, is too subtle, the web convention is that all capital letters means you are angry!
    - Subject: Re: SUBWAYS IN GENERAL, FOLKS
    - Message Number: 760549
    - Posted by: Incubis
    - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:37:31 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]SUBWAYS IN GENERAL, FOLKS posted by KRYLLYN on December 12, 1997 at 15:59:15: Oh look, see Spot run. Funny, funny Spot. Look, Jane, here comes boots too. Gee, Jane, let me tell you about subways, Okay Dick, tell me about the choo-choo
      - Subject: Re: SUBWAYS IN GENERAL, FOLKS
      - Message Number: 760552
      - Posted by: Brian Wolk
      - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:37:45 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]SUBWAYS IN GENERAL, FOLKS posted by KRYLLYN on December 12, 1997 at 15:59:15: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!! You New Yorkers are so complex with your I R T A B C J F K 1 2 3 stuff. In Toronto it's simple. We just go by colours: The Yellow, The Green, The Blue and soon, The Purple. That's IT!
        
        Subject: Re: SUBWAYS IN GENERAL, FOLKS
        Message Number: 760561
        Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:38:19 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: SUBWAYS IN GENERAL, FOLKS posted by Brian Wolk on December 12, 1997 at 20:37:55: Well, NY has so many lines that color wouldn't work. Color breaks down between 4 and 8 lines. Once you've exausted red, green, blue, orange, yellow, brown, purple, grey, black - you're stuck. Not to mention what color blind people do. Septa ( and CTA?? Brian??) at least list destionations / names (Broad Street, etc) on some lines, but I don't think Boston, DC, or the Bart do. I agree NY's Letter / Number scheme breaks down at points, but with all those lines, it's hard to refer by name, and color would be impossible. Also, with colors, you inevitably get into the trap of painting cars the color of the line they run on (Boston??). This in itself would be an ops nightmare for NY.
        
        Subject: Re: SUBWAYS IN GENERAL, FOLKS
        Message Number: 760563
        Posted by: Nathan
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:38:25 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: SUBWAYS IN GENERAL, FOLKS posted by Brian Wolk on December 12, 1997 at 20:37:55: Colours in Toronto? Geez, I always refererred to the lines by their correpsonding streetnames, you know, Bloor Danforth, Yonge (for the whole YUS megillah) the RT and soon the sheppard. (ooh, by the way, ever swiped a TTC on car route map?? Well worth it! *looks at his wall*
        
        Subject: Re: SUBWAYS IN GENERAL, FOLKS
        Message Number: 760585
        Posted by: Alan Follett
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:39:16 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: SUBWAYS IN GENERAL, FOLKS posted by Philip Nasadowski on December 13, 1997 at 01:45:26: Although BART's maps color-code the lines, they are never referred to by color designations. Platform electronic signs just give the destination of the train.
        
        Subject: Re: SUBWAYS IN GENERAL, FOLKS
        Message Number: 760608
        Posted by: Mark Greenwald
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:40:30 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: SUBWAYS IN GENERAL, FOLKS posted by Philip Nasadowski on December 13, 1997 at 01:45:26: Your regards to the DC Metro is DEAD wrong. On the sides of the cars, the color AND the destination is listed. For example, a portion of the "flip-dot" sign is orange with "New Carrollton" listed next to it. It is only on the ends of the cars where you see a giant colored dot in the window for the designated colored line.
        
        Subject: Re: SUBWAYS IN GENERAL, FOLKS
        Message Number: 760609
        Posted by: Mark Greenwald
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:40:32 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]SUBWAYS IN GENERAL, FOLKS posted by KRYLLYN on December 12, 1997 at 15:59:15: First of all----TURN YOUR CAPS LOCK OFF!!!--I had a rough night last night & you're way too loud. Secondly, before you attack the NYC subway--GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT!! It appears you have no clue as to the true history of the system and you certainly don't know the real differences between the IND and the BMT. Get your facts straight and then feel free to stop back. If a debate is what you want, a debate is what you'll get.
        
        Subject: Re: SUBWAYS IN GENERAL, FOLKS
        Message Number: 760619
        Posted by: Bootsy
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:41:07 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: SUBWAYS IN GENERAL, FOLKS posted by Philip Nasadowski on December 13, 1997 at 01:45:26: Well, in New York, we already have RED down, and up until a few years ago, some of those trains were painted GREEN.
        
        Subject: Re: SUBWAYS IN GENERAL, FOLKS
        Message Number: 760772
        Posted by: Color Blind
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:10:27 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: SUBWAYS IN GENERAL, FOLKS posted by Brian Wolk on December 12, 1997 at 20:37:55: Great and if I am color blind?? I'll take letters/numbers anyday.

Thread title: Free Ride (760542)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:36:55 1997, by Chris C.

Subject: Free Ride
Message Number: 760542
Posted by: Chris C.
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:36:55 1997

Thanks to the new metro card it is now possible to ride two for the price of one. If you take the bus to work, find a pal who takes the subway around the same time as you. Swipe your card at the turnstyle and have your pal enter the system. Then take the card and use the transfer to board the bus for Free. At the end of the week square up with your pal/spouse/accomplace. Find a friend for the ride back!!!
- Subject: Re: Free Ride
- Message Number: 760571
- Posted by: Mike K
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:38:42 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Free Ride posted by Chris C. on December 12, 1997 at 17:18:23: Chris-- Good idea...with a minor problem. If everyone does this, the MTA surplus will disappear. Then one of two things will happen: a) Fares will rise and the discounts will disappear. b) Service will be further cut. Think about it. Sometimes, honesty is the best policy.
  - Subject: Re: Free Ride
  - Message Number: 760588
  - Posted by: Steve
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:39:22 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Free Ride posted by Chris C. on December 12, 1997 at 17:18:23: You can also ride for free if you jump the turnstile. The fact is that "Theft of Service" is theft of service and no matter how hi tech or low tech you are, it's still a crime. I don't know about you but if I'm going to become a criminal, it's got to be for something worth much more than a buck-fifty. Think about self-worth & honesty
    - Subject: Re: Free Ride
    - Message Number: 760594
    - Posted by: subway-buff
    - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:39:36 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Free Ride posted by Chris C. on December 12, 1997 at 17:18:23: No can do! The NYCT is studying this idea and is planning on a time limit such as 6 minutes (Like the employee pass) or maybe 15-20 minutes. My source is the Daily News Article on the day the passes were annnounced. I do *not* work for transit and do not know the offical policy. I urge you to respect the law. Fare beating is stealing. Imagine you ran a store and I kept talking food or drinks from your store. You have to buy the food, pay the bills, etc. If everyone steals your food you go out of business or your raise prices which will send your customers elsewhere and so on, Imagine what the fare could be if everyone was honest. Any business , be it a barber shop, grocery store, railroad, subway has overhead which must be recovered(raise prices, cut service, reduce hours, etc.)
      - Subject: Re: Free Ride
      - Message Number: 760652
      - Posted by: Joe M
      - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:42:19 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Free Ride posted by Steve on December 13, 1997 at 18:26:30: It's also not worth the fine if you get caught. St Louis and parts of San Fran. do not have attendants or turnstyles. They work on the honor system. You are supposed to get a fare. Once in a while checkers come through the trains. If you don't have the correct fare reciept its a bug fine.
        
        Subject: Re: Free Ride
        Message Number: 760653
        Posted by: Joe M
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:42:21 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Free Ride posted by Steve on December 13, 1997 at 18:26:30: It's also not worth the fine if you get caught. St Louis and parts of San Fran. do not have attendants or turnstyles. They work on the honor system. You are supposed to get a fare. Once in a while checkers come through the trains. If you don't have the correct fare reciept its a bug fine.
        
        Subject: Re: Free Ride
        Message Number: 760694
        Posted by: Mike K
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:08:04 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Free Ride posted by Joe M on December 14, 1997 at 23:28:21: Baltimore operates in a similar fashion on its light rail syste...And I have been on, WITH farecard, when a police officer has come through to check...Needless to say, those without the card were off at the next stop and faced a heavy fine.
        
        Subject: Re: Free Ride
        Message Number: 760704
        Posted by: Chris C.
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:08:23 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Free Ride posted by Steve on December 13, 1997 at 18:26:30: I did not realize that this was dishonest. Does the city have a law that says your transit card must be on your person at all times???? Is that constitutional??? Can they really insist that every rider prove where and when they got on or off the system??? They made the free transfer policy for the convenience of the riders. It's the way the system works. Why should I not use the existing system to its fullest potential??? I don't feel guilty about changing from the IND to the IRT. The TA calculates how long the average passenger is in the system, if I exceed this time am I stealing from the Transit Authority and its passengers??? It's their system and their transfer policy, am I not entitled to use it to the fullest? What's next? Restricted movements througout the system??? Time limits on the system??? Barcoded transit cards tatooed to our wrists??? If they don't like people utilizing their system, then they should just shut it down or go back to old policies like charging extra to transfer from the IRT to the IND. It's not like I'm using slugs or forign coins. I'm using their card and their transfer policy designed to empower riders and promote freedom and convenience for everyone!
        
        Subject: Re: Free Ride
        Message Number: 760714
        Posted by: Peter Rosa
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:08:40 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Free Ride posted by Chris C. on December 15, 1997 at 10:35:30: I'm not going to get into a discussion of honesty or ethics, but note that the NY subway (unlike its counterparts in many other cities) does not require riders to have any proof of payment. In other words, the only way farebeaters can be caught is if they are seen jumping the turnstiles. There are no fare inspectors on the trains or platforms and no card insertion required on exit.
        
        Subject: Re: Free Ride
        Message Number: 760722
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:08:54 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Free Ride posted by Chris C. on December 15, 1997 at 10:35:30: That's a pretty glib rationalization, but lets reduce the puzzle to it's basics: Does your activity result in less revenue to the MTA? If so, it is stealing, ipso facto.
        
        Subject: Re: Free Ride
        Message Number: 760723
        Posted by: Chris C.
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:08:56 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Free Ride posted by Mike K on December 13, 1997 at 08:53:05: I do resent the suggestion that it is dishonist to utilize the transfer policy endorsed by the Governor and the Transit Authority. As to discounts disappering; what discounts? If I am not alowed to take advantage of the free transfer policy, then I'm not recieving any discount! It seems that the Governor wants to go on television bragging about free transfers, but secretly he doesn't want anybody to take advantage of them. No wonder there's a surpluss! The TA can't have it both ways, either we get a discount or we don't. They can't expect to make a policy that allows passengers to double up on rides and then go crying about it when they do! If the TA decided to cancel the various perks of the metrocard and I hadn't bothered to take advantage of them in the first place then I would be loosing nothing.
        
        Subject: Re: Free Ride
        Message Number: 760728
        Posted by: Chris C
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:09:04 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Free Ride posted by Gary Jacobi on December 15, 1997 at 14:02:29: Often times I let a train pass and wait for the one behind it or I stay on the local in plain view of the express. It is my choice to utilize the system in this manner even though I am not using it at the optimum efficiency intended by the TA, consequently impacting their resources and thereby their revenu. The TA wouldn't dream of giving me a ticket for riding the local over the express; a trend I might add, which is not endorsed by the Governor, as is the free bus transfer! If someone gets on the subway in Riverdale and rides all the way to Howard Beach for $1.50 are they stealing from the rest of us who travel only a few stops for the same price???? If the TA looses money on these long distance travelers they don't call it stealing because it is the policy of the TA to let riders go as far as they want for $1.50 just as it is policy to let riders take advantage of the various perks of the metrocard. The TA counts on the notion that not everyone will take advantage of the system to it's fullest. If everyone who got on the subway rode all day long the TA would suffer and eventually go broke. In the end the TA would prefer that people spent a lot of money on tokens and metrocards and then never got on the subway at all. But the TA understands that they have an obligation to live up to their end of the bargan.
        
        Subject: Re: Free Ride
        Message Number: 760731
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:09:10 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Free Ride posted by Chris C. on December 15, 1997 at 10:35:30: Let's cut to the chase. Is it possible - of course it is. Is it legal, likely not. Before metro-card, I'm quite sure people were selling bus transfers - that doesn't make what you are doing right. It is definitely not the intent of the metro-card free transfer system. You may get away with it for years and even never get caught. The point is are you that small and petty that you need to get over for a buck and a half?
        
        Subject: Re: Free Ride
        Message Number: 760743
        Posted by: Joe M
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:09:30 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Free Ride posted by Chris C. on December 15, 1997 at 14:23:16: A transfer is good for a continous trip by the person to who it was issued. Not a free for all
        
        Subject: Re: Free Ride
        Message Number: 760762
        Posted by: Chris C.
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:10:09 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Free Ride posted by Steve on December 15, 1997 at 18:24:05: I know a couple that send their kids to private school every morning on the train, they swipe the card for the kids and then use the transfers to take the bus to work. This is perfectly legal. A cop sees them do it each morning and smiles. There is nothing petty about using the system to it's fullest. Not to mention that the metrocard is bringing families together. I know another guy who works at home but has to drop off and pick up at the office a few times a week. He takes the bus to the office and then uses his metrocard transfer on the subway for the return trip. My friend did not know he was doing it at first but the turnstyle would not deduct the fare from his card even if he wanted it to. The Governor says "free transfer from bus to subway from subway to bus" He does not say 'except if your going in a certain direction' Does the Governor feel petty about accepting the votes of the people who utilize the system he has put in place???? I seriously doubt it.
        
        Subject: Re: Free Ride
        Message Number: 760769
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:10:22 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Free Ride posted by Chris C. on December 16, 1997 at 10:01:27: Seems to me that a simple programming change should correct the situation you explained. Just have to specify that you can't board a bus from the same train station where you entered the system. I have forwarded your example to the people in The Revenue Department for review. I'd appreciate any other constructive you might have....
        
        Subject: Re: Free Ride
        Message Number: 760770
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:10:24 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Free Ride posted by Chris C. on December 16, 1997 at 10:01:27: Seems to me that a simple programming change should correct the situation you explained. Just have to specify that you can't board a bus from the same train station where you entered the system. I have forwarded your example to the people in The Revenue Department for review. I'd appreciate any other constructive ideas you might have....
        
        Subject: Re: Free Ride
        Message Number: 760774
        Posted by: Chris C.
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:10:31 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Free Ride posted by Steve on December 16, 1997 at 11:44:05: If the TA wants to ad restrictions to their transfer policy your idea seems to be the best way to handle it. It does, however, seem that everyone would benefit by reducing the number of rules and regulations. I would be willing to pay a monthly fee slightly higher than average ridership to have total access to all busses and trains at all times. I would be saved the hastle of waiting on line for cards and tokens and the TA would save on having to build into the system enforcement of lots of petty rules. Perhaps they would save enought to give us total access for less than the cost of average ridership! In the end, less rules and restrictions means everybody wins.
        
        Subject: Re: Free Ride
        Message Number: 760775
        Posted by: Tim
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:10:32 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Free Ride posted by Chris C. on December 16, 1997 at 12:09:18: Maybe you should spend the money you will save on the new fare structure on a dictionary and a grammar book! Learn the difference between "its" and "it's!"
        
        Subject: Re: Free Ride
        Message Number: 760802
        Posted by: Wayne Johnson
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:11:20 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Free Ride posted by Chris C. on December 15, 1997 at 14:23:16: I really don't think the transfer policy was intended for the "advantages and/or priviledges" that you speak of. It's sort of like a bus rider (before the this current system) paying his/her fare and then giving (or selling) the transfer because he/she dosen't intend to use the transfer. This I know is not legal because transfers are to be used only by the person it was issued to. Therefore any other use would be misuse.
        
        Subject: Re: Free Ride
        Message Number: 760807
        Posted by: Chris C
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:11:29 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Free Ride posted by Wayne Johnson on December 17, 1997 at 09:55:39: You're right! I recently read a story where two camp instructors used the metrocard to take a group of kids on a field trip. Each one swiped a card a number of times to allow the group and themselves on. Later when they transfered to the subway they were ticketed because the kids didn't enter the turnstyles in the same order corresponding to the various cards used!!! I think the fine was $75 per kid!!! So watch out!
        
        Subject: Re: Free Ride
        Message Number: 760810
        Posted by: Wayne Johnson
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:11:33 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Free Ride posted by Chris C on December 17, 1997 at 10:12:37: Wow, that's unfortunate, especially if the counselors were unaware that they were not using the system incorrectly. I'm not sure, but I thought that a single MetroCard to be swiped up to 4 times and then when the transfer is made you swipe it once and up to 4 transfers are accepted. RE: NYS Governor - It's my opinion the G. Pataki is endorsing this fare card deal for the NYCTA part of his re-election campaign. For many years he has been anti-downstate, and even more when Giuliani crossed the party line during the election.
        
        Subject: Re: Free Ride
        Message Number: 760813
        Posted by: Chris C.
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:11:38 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Free Ride posted by Wayne Johnson on December 17, 1997 at 12:05:43: You are right about swiping the card 4 times. The way I understand the story that's what they did. But because they were a group swiping more than one card one or two of the four on the first card were among the four on the second card when they transfered and vice verca. In other words the groups of 4 became intermingled when they went to get on the subway. They were busted because technically they were swapping cards, in effect using someone elses transfer! This goes to prove my point that the system has too many petty rules. The metrocard is supposed to streamline things and make them easier. What the system needs is less restrictions and more freedom. An unlimited monthly pass is a possible solution.
        
        Subject: Re: Free Ride
        Message Number: 760816
        Posted by: David Pirmann
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:11:43 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Free Ride posted by Chris C on December 17, 1997 at 10:12:37: Can you provide a cite for this story? There's no way you could tell which 4 kids were sent thru on which Metrocard. There's nothing that associates a Metrocard with a body. If I have 7 kids and 2 metrocards, I can swipe each card 4 times on the bus to deduct 8 fares (7 kids+myself) then go to the subway and swipe each once for 8 transfers. Who cares what order the kids go thru? How can someone even tell? Was the cop/token booth clerk/bus driver that busted them also present when they boarded the first vehicle? Unlikely! Without a cite on this story I think it's bullshit. -Dave
        
        Subject: Re: Free Ride
        Message Number: 760820
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:11:51 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Free Ride posted by Wayne Johnson on December 17, 1997 at 12:05:43: No, Chris, I have to agree with Dave; the system can count, but it can't differentiate between individuals. This doesn't mean we don't believe your story, but we suspect the counselor had actually done something other than what he told the press. It may have been an innocent mistake on his part, and MTA may have let the story stand to get the message out that you can't beat the system, even though you obviously CAN.
        
        Subject: Re: Free Ride
        Message Number: 760834
        Posted by: Charles Fiori
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:12:15 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Free Ride posted by Chris C. on December 15, 1997 at 10:35:30: Back in September, I rode with my 2 children from downtown, some local stop on the #1, up to TSQ. We walked across town, meandering in general, and then decided we wanted to go up to FAO Schwarz, so we trundled over to Madison. The time elapsed between exiting through the fancy new kiosk at TSQ and reboarding a #1 bus on Madison was probably 35-45 mins. I swiped the Metrocard and voila, Lauren and I got on free and Bryan did not have to pay anyway. I did that expecting to have to pay an extra fare (which would still have been cheaper than a taxi--besides I got tired of hearing Joe Torre's and Eartha Kitt's voices) and was pleasantly surprised when I did not have to. An example of revenue lost to the MTA, yes, but instead it builds facility with the system so there might be an increase in initial fares down the road. What can't be captured, of course, is extra wear and tear on the equipment from heavier ridership loads. Remember the Add-A-Rides? At one point in Manhattan, you could not transfer for free from a NYCTA bus to a MaBSTOA route without paying a new fare. The add-a-rides helped, I think they cost a quarter.
        
        Subject: Re: Free Ride
        Message Number: 760838
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:12:22 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Free Ride posted by David Pirmann on December 17, 1997 at 14:31:47: As I understand the "free transfer" system, one metrocard can be swiped for up to 4 people and then 'dipped' once on a bus to get the four transfers. That would seem to be legal and acceptable. All the rest of this seems to be just so much CAH CAH. On the other-hand, the MTA gives me a pass similar to the metro-card. It works the same way as the regular metro-card except that it can only be used once at a given station within a 6 minute time span. This is to discourage me from using it for friends or family. A simple change in programming can do the same for the metro-card if abuses get out of hand. It's like the IRS. The taxman may look the other way if you find a loophole but see what they do to you when you write a book and sell the secret. If Chris or someone else has found a way to beat the system, go for it. The really stupid thing is to brag about it and let everyone know how to do it. Talk about killing the goose that lays the golden egg.
        
        Subject: Re: Free Ride
        Message Number: 760894
        Posted by: Dan Lawrence
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:14:14 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Free Ride posted by Mike K on December 15, 1997 at 08:16:28: How the lack of a POP is handled by the MTA cops depends a lot on how the person accepts the cop's request for proof. Many times the cops simply let the person get off at the next stop and buy the POP. If the person gives the cop a hard time, presto! instant $500.00 citiation. See you in court! The MTA force is very courteous and treats the passengers as cutomers. I ride the LR quite often and may trips are checkless since the MTA has a random check policy. Fare evasion on the LR is only a tiny fraction of total passengers - MTA has one of the best fare averages in the country, over 96%!

Thread title: Retired CTA Rapid Transit Pictures (760543)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:37:01 1997, by Bryan Layne

Subject: Retired CTA Rapid Transit Pictures
Message Number: 760543
Posted by: Bryan Layne
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:37:01 1997

New pictures of retired CTA cars at Metra/Chicago Transit Fan Page. click on this---------->[7]members.aol.com/chictafan/rosctahp.html/. MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!!!!!!!!!

Thread title: Success! (760551)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:37:40 1997, by Brian Wolk

Subject: Success!
Message Number: 760551
Posted by: Brian Wolk
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:37:40 1997

In Reply to: [7]Re: How to place hypertext links in SubTalk Posts posted by Brian Wolk on December 12, 1997 at 20:29:15: Wicked! Now you can all join me in my fun!!

Thread title: O'Hare extension (760553)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:37:49 1997, by GAR

Subject: O'Hare extension
Message Number: 760553
Posted by: GAR
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:37:49 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: How does a subway get extended? posted by Alan Follett on December 06, 1997 at 17:07:48: From what I have read the main points of debate on extending from O'Hare are the cost of tunneling under the airport & using ROW on the NW Tollway. The Tollway Authortiy has room but they want to use it for more auto lanes.

Thread title: Removed tile? (760554)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:37:56 1997, by Zack

Subject: Removed tile?
Message Number: 760554
Posted by: Zack
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:37:56 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: 2nd Avenue Station & The Smith Street Subway posted by Mark S Feinman on December 12, 1997 at 12:37:16: whyd they remove all the tile at the lower level of bergan street? it cant be reused so why remive it? it makes no sense?

Thread title: Re: Threecarunits...(was Canarsie...)/AdTranz (760556)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:38:04 1997, by Dan Lawrence

Subject: Re: Threecarunits...(was Canarsie...)/AdTranz
Message Number: 760556
Posted by: Dan Lawrence
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:38:04 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Threecarunits...(was Canarsie...) posted by Quigebo on December 12, 1997 at 17:55:40: The only "fly in the ointment" is that AdTranz has not been able to deliver 1 order on time or to spec yet. SEPTA's new Market El cars are late, overweight (1500 lbs per car) and AdTranz just settled with SEPTA on the penalty on the contract. AdTranz will provide a 23 million dollar, state-of-the-art, cab signal system for the streetcar subway at NO cost to SEPTA. However, at the rate of car delivery it may take until 2005 to deliver all the cars to replace the 1961 Budds. On the LRV front, AdTraz is way behind on the delivery of 18 cars to the Baltimore MTA's Central Light Rail Line. Two cars have been delivered, but not accepted. This has placed a strain on the current fleet. With the opening of the Penn Station/BWI branches, the car fleet is stretched to the limit, with only 2 spare cars available. Trains on the Hunt Valley/Dorsey Road line are strictly 2-car trains and Penn/BWI trains are single cars. What the MTA is going to do on March 31 '98 is anybody's guess. Baseball traffic is heavy enough to require 3-car trains. The contractor building the south car house at Dorsey Road has been allowed to slow down for the winter since there is no need for the facility until all of the 18 cars are delivered. AdTranz's track record (no pun intended) is frankly terrible, and at the rate they are going, new contracts are going to become scarce. If the firm survives into the 21st century I will be very surprised.

Thread title: LIRR line rankings (760557)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:38:07 1997, by Peter Rosa

Subject: LIRR line rankings
Message Number: 760557
Posted by: Peter Rosa
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:38:07 1997

One thing I haven't been able to find is a ranking of LIRR lines, in order of ridership. That might be interesting because there definitely are some major differences from line to line (unlike Metro-North, where the three lines are relatively close to one another in ridership terms. Anyway, here is my guess as to how the LIRR lines stack up in ridership terms (busiest to least busy): 1. Ronkonkoma. 2. Pt. Jefferson (mostly to Huntington). 3. Babylon. 4. Pt. Washington. 5. Long Beach. 6. Montauk. 7. Hempstead. 8. Far Rockaway. 9. Oyster Bay. 10. West Hempstead. 11. Greenport. Does anyone have information to the contrary?
- Subject: Re: LIRR line rankings
- Message Number: 760701
- Posted by: Lou from Middletown
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:08:18 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]LIRR line rankings posted by Peter Rosa on December 12, 1997 at 23:59:48: I know that historically, the busiest has always been Babylon, but that might have changed....

Thread title: Embedded Link (760559)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:38:12 1997, by GAR

Subject: Embedded Link
Message Number: 760559
Posted by: GAR
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:38:12 1997

In Reply to: [6]Lenox Ave Reconstruction:Day 2 posted by Charles Fiori on December 12, 1997 at 13:42:20: Let's see if I can get this to work...... [7]Shore Line Historical Society
- Subject: Re: Embedded Link
- Message Number: 760562
- Posted by: GAR
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:38:23 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Embedded Link posted by GAR on December 13, 1997 at 01:38:50: I'm not to good at giving instructions but here goes...Try highlighting and copying Mark's instructions to a doc.(On a PC use the edit menu copy&paste) Copy the address of the page you want to link by highlighting the address field in your browser. Highlight just the address portion of the sample from http to the end and paste in the new address .Copy and paste the entire line into your post -from the first ( to the last ). Next change the )'s into >'s. Where Mark has- "check out the Yahoo search engine" - place the text you would like to appear as a link.....

Thread title: Last Stop (760560)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:38:14 1997, by Albert

Subject: Last Stop
Message Number: 760560
Posted by: Albert
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:38:14 1997

Can anyone one tell me if the Main St. station on the #7 line is the only last stop station where there is actually a wall and not a tunnel which goes to wherever?. I have been to some other "last stops" underground and I have never noticed that "white-tiled wall" like the one at Main St.
- Subject: Re: Last Stop
- Message Number: 760565
- Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:38:29 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Last Stop posted by Albert on December 13, 1997 at 01:39:25: Well, I know that 8th Ave on the L has one, and 57/6 used to have one before they knocked the wall out for 63st service. WTC's E platform, possibly 207st on the A. 95st on the R in Brooklyn, for sure. -Hank
  - Subject: Re: Last Stop
  - Message Number: 760566
  - Posted by: subway-buff
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:38:31 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: Last Stop posted by Hank Eisenstein on December 13, 1997 at 05:44:18: Another wall is at at Flatbush Av on the 2 train,. Tjhere is a a partial wall at Canal Street on the j/m/z blocking the end of the center two tracks which end at this station. I guess that at one point they actually used those tracks?
    - Subject: Re: Last Stop
    - Message Number: 760574
    - Posted by: Lefty
    - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:38:47 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Last Stop posted by Albert on December 13, 1997 at 01:39:25: the end of track 3 and 2 at grand central on the shuttle is a wall and the train cant continue to anywhere. however at the other end of the line, the bridge over which people walk to get to tracks 3 and 2 is easily removable (built that way with reason) and trains could continue onto the uptown local tracks where the 1 runs. at the grand central end the 1 track on the S shuttle continues to "somewhere", i imagine to the lex avenue lines. can anyone confirm that?
      - Subject: Re: Last Stop
      - Message Number: 760587
      - Posted by: Steve
      - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:39:20 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Last Stop posted by Albert on December 13, 1997 at 01:39:25: 207th Street - A line 95th Street - R Line 14th Street - L Line 21 St Q line - I think World Trade Center - E line 2 track
        
        Subject: Re: Last Stop
        Message Number: 760593
        Posted by: subway-buff
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:39:34 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Last Stop posted by Lefty on December 13, 1997 at 10:59:59: AT Grand Central, Track 1 leads to the downtown local track(before 33 street). They use this connection (as well as the removable "bridge" at Times Square to get cars onto and off the shuttle. They rotate the cars once a week(midnight hours). We used hit sconnection at Grand Central for the recent Lo-V Trip.
        
        Subject: Re: Last Stop
        Message Number: 760601
        Posted by: charlie muller
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:40:08 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Last Stop posted by subway-buff on December 13, 1997 at 06:38:27: last stops for these trains going north bound in the bronx. #1 and 9 last stop 242 st van cortlandt park, bronx; #4 woodlawn and jerome ave, bronx; c train bedford park blvd, bronx; d train 205st norwood section bainbridge ave, bronx; #2 241st wakefield section, bronx; #5 rush hours only Nereid aveune, 238th st, bronx; #5 lexington ave express, dyre ave, eastchester, bronx;#6 Pelham bay park, bronx. charlie muller.
        
        Subject: Re: Last Stop
        Message Number: 760618
        Posted by: Bootsy
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:41:06 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Last Stop posted by subway-buff on December 13, 1997 at 19:33:29: Are the redbirds ever put on the shuttle? The last ones I saw on there were the R-17s back in the late 80s, right before they were taken out of service.
        
        Subject: Re: Last Stop
        Message Number: 760621
        Posted by: Eric B
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:41:11 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Last Stop posted by Steve on December 13, 1997 at 18:21:21: Not 21st St. There was always layup space beyond the station, and of course, in 4 years, it will become a through connection.
        
        Subject: Re: Last Stop
        Message Number: 760637
        Posted by: subway-buff
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:41:45 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Last Stop posted by Bootsy on December 14, 1997 at 13:43:03: The shuttle uses R-62 (or R 62A) Cars since it is OPTO(One operator) althougjht here is a second operator on the other end. In theory the NYCT should run redbirds here or any line-even IRT on BMT/IND (just "watch the gap between the train and the platform. There is a large gap between the train and the platform." As a regular NJT rider I am used to hearing this lien since my "home"station metro park is in a curve and the wesbound track is banked" the wrong way" there is a huge gap and step down= The ADA people would have a field day here. (To answer an unasked question: AMTRAk and NJT use ramps called "bridge plates " to ramp from platform to ttain for wheelchair access customers.)
        
        Subject: Re: Last Stop
        Message Number: 760648
        Posted by: David Pirmann
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:42:09 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Last Stop posted by subway-buff on December 14, 1997 at 20:53:58: If you want to see "gap" go to London some day. :-) At some platforms there's a 6 inch step up or down to get into the train and a mindless droning voice saying "mind the gap.... mind the gap..." over and over. (Maybe someone should hack the 14th St. gap fillers annoucement with a recording of London's... :-)
        
        Subject: Re: Last Stop
        Message Number: 760649
        Posted by: Peter Rosa
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:42:11 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Last Stop posted by subway-buff on December 14, 1997 at 20:53:58: I wouldn't expect to see IRT cars used in revenue service on any BMT/IND lines. Keep in mind that an IRT car is 14 inches narrower (8'10" vs. 10'), so the gap would be seven inches wider on the platform side, added to the two or three inches already there. The chance of accidents - and lawsuits - is just too high.
        
        Subject: Re: Last Stop
        Message Number: 760651
        Posted by: Joe M
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:42:16 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Last Stop posted by David Pirmann on December 14, 1997 at 22:48:36: Toronto also reminds riders to mind the gap, but the conductors got rid of the whistles to warn of the door closing in favor of door chimes a couple of years ago. Effective but not nearly so quaint. maybe I will make it to London someday... Nah, maybe Dublin and Shannon
        
        Subject: Re: Last Stop
        Message Number: 760691
        Posted by: Albert
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:07:58 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Last Stop posted by charlie muller on December 13, 1997 at 23:50:17: Thank you everyone who responded to my question about the last-stops with walls. Also in reference to the anouncement about the gaps at 14th St-Union Sq. I use that station quite often to go college, but in the past few weeks I haven't heard that anouncement "Please stand clear of the.....", anymore, has anyone else noticed that.
        
        Subject: Re: Last Stop
        Message Number: 760708
        Posted by: Charles Fiori
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:08:29 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Last Stop posted by Albert on December 13, 1997 at 01:39:25: Not completely what you are looking for, but what about layup tracks in the middle along lower Broadway? I believe that the north end of these tracks, adjacent to the local stations at Canal have a wall. Those tracks stop to allow for the ramp up from the unused Canal St. plat. Also, what about the lower level @ City Hall on the BMT? I did not think there was a ramp up on both ends.
        
        Subject: Re: Last Stop
        Message Number: 760781
        Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:10:43 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Last Stop posted by subway-buff on December 13, 1997 at 06:38:27: I have the new 'SUBWAYS' book, it shows a tunnel at fltbush extending beyond the bumper block in one photo...the block is damaged from a train collision, and the caption readss 'trying to exten the nostrand ave subway the hard way, or something similar.... -Hank
        
        Subject: Re: Last Stop
        Message Number: 760987
        Posted by: Andrew Huie
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:17:16 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Last Stop posted by Hank Eisenstein on December 16, 1997 at 14:23:01: I think it was a picture of a train which TRIED to go past the bumper block. However, when I was at Flatbush Ave a few years ago, the bumper blocks and the platform surrounding the end of the line were firmly in place.

Thread title: Re: NJ Transit overcrowding:the Secaucus conn. (760572)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:38:43 1997, by Lou from Middletown

Subject: Re: NJ Transit overcrowding:the Secaucus conn.
Message Number: 760572
Posted by: Lou from Middletown
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:38:43 1997

In Reply to: [6]NJ Transit overcrowding posted by Charles Fiori on December 11, 1997 at 09:49:22: This really makes you wonder what they're going to do when the Secaucus Connection is opened and hundres of Main-PJ line customers qre dumped onto the system!
- Subject: Re: NJ Transit overcrowding:the Secaucus conn.
- Message Number: 760599
- Posted by: ~airplane
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:39:58 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Re: NJ Transit overcrowding:the Secaucus conn. posted by Lou from Middletown on December 13, 1997 at 10:11:35: What ever happened to Amtrak's plan to convert the main post office on 34th into a new Penn Station? Is it still on the drawing board?
  - Subject: Re: NJ Transit overcrowding:the Secaucus conn.
  - Message Number: 760620
  - Posted by: Andrew Huie
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:41:10 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: NJ Transit overcrowding:the Secaucus conn. posted by ~airplane on December 13, 1997 at 22:08:08: Last I saw, it's still on the drawing boards. There was an article in the NY Times about it a few months ago showing what it would look like. It resembled (not coincidentally) the original Penn Station though it was still not quite up to it. My question is though, what will happen to the current Penn Station? Will it become a mall, be used by only LIRR trains, etc.?

Thread title: The New Third Avenue Line and more! (760573)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:38:45 1997, by Christopher Rivera

Subject: The New Third Avenue Line and more!
Message Number: 760573
Posted by: Christopher Rivera
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:38:45 1997

I looked at the orignal 8 train/ Third avenue line and I said hey that line was an impotant line so I got to work I developed the new 8 train it goes from Gun Hill Road to J.F.K. airport and I made 3 more lines like the new Culver Suttle that goes from 36 Street to Flatbush Avenue.I need help I want these lines to be made and I need more ideas help Christopher Rivera 12 years old
- Subject: Re: The New Third Avenue Line and more!
- Message Number: 760598
- Posted by: Fernando Perez
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:39:56 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]The New Third Avenue Line and more! posted by Christopher Rivera on December 13, 1997 at 10:22:51: Ok Chris! We'll get back to you, AOK, check!
  - Subject: Re: The New Third Avenue Line and more!
  - Message Number: 760603
  - Posted by: Zack
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:40:17 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: The New Third Avenue Line and more! posted by Fernando Perez on December 13, 1997 at 21:50:40: could be practicital to build elevateds again. this thime build them out of concrete and steel like new freeways. with modlair construction and automated cars that can have reg cabs it could be an intresting propesititon. My lad but it up to the voters!!!!!!!!
    - Subject: Re: The New Third Avenue Line and more!
    - Message Number: 760725
    - Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
    - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:08:59 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]The New Third Avenue Line and more! posted by Christopher Rivera on December 13, 1997 at 10:22:51: Unfortunately, ideas are $1.44 per gross (marked down from a dime a dozen). There's lots of good ideas: extend the 4 down Utica Avenue, use the freight lines across Brooklyn, extend the F from 179 to 261 St, build a Cross-Bronx line, a 2nd Ave. line, trains to the airports, put the J train underground. The expense, the political will, and the determination of true usefulness of each of these potential expenses are the hard parts. Remember, the last major new construction that produced new service in NYC was the 6th Ave. line in 1940; everything since has been minor connections between existing track, sorry to say. The last really new large service addition was the Rockaway line converion of the LIRR in 1956. If I had a couple zillion dollars and a dictatorship, we'd being doing great, but.... Seriously... If you major in college in transportation or civil engineering, and push hard in the world of transit, you may head up the MTA some day. Even if you don't make it to the top, you could get what you wanted done, maybe. I sometimes wish I had done that...

Thread title: 2nd Ave on F line (760575)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:38:49 1997, by JOhn

Subject: 2nd Ave on F line
Message Number: 760575
Posted by: JOhn
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:38:49 1997

What is the ridership on the F line at 2nd ave station? Must be very low. I went there on midday and saw very few people on the platforms, 5 or so, including me. Is it in a good neighborhood? How is it there at night? Scary?
- Subject: Re: 2nd Ave on F line
- Message Number: 760614
- Posted by: Steve
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:40:50 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]2nd Ave on F line posted by JOhn on December 13, 1997 at 11:13:30: The 2nd Ave. Station, formerly referred to as Houston St. served as the southern terminal for the F line into the 60s. The 2 center tracks are now used for turning trains during General Orders and in emergencies. Those two center tracks continued south for roughly 1,000 feet and were also used for storage. However, the homeless population in that tunnel became so overwhelming and uncontrolable that the TA was forced to wall it off. As for the neighborhood, by day it is historical and busy. Many NY landmarks are there, such as Katz's Deli (the President ate there last week). However, by night, it is a different story. Ridership is moderate at the station although paid ridership is likely significantly less.
  - Subject: Re: 2nd Ave on F line
  - Message Number: 760705
  - Posted by: Charles Fiori
  - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:08:25 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: 2nd Ave on F line posted by Steve on December 14, 1997 at 12:19:46: The F terminals before the opening of Chrystie St. were generally Bway-Lafayette (peak) and 34-6Av (off peak). Some trains may have run to Second Avenue. (The R46 signs when delivered still had 179 St-Jamaica/Second Avenue as a terminal pair)The station was always called 2d Ave and was referred to as Houston-2d Avenue really only on the destination signs (and route signs) of the R 1/9s.
    - Subject: Re: 2nd Ave on F line
    - Message Number: 760753
    - Posted by: Sammy
    - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:09:48 1997
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: 2nd Ave on F line posted by Charles Fiori on December 15, 1997 at 10:47:00: Far from the lack of ridership, the station is very much alive at nights and on weekends. The area is vibrant with clubs (the Bank, Mercury Lounge, Vain, Sapphire), is a conduit to the East Village and the Lower East Side (ever growing in terms of restaurants, bars, clubs and boutiques), etc. There are also "competing" lines nearby - the J, M, L, 6, etc. The answer really is that there is plenty of traffic.

Thread title: Ideas on how to improve NYCT bus service on Staten Island. (760577)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:38:53 1997, by Mike

Subject: Ideas on how to improve NYCT bus service on Staten Island.
Message Number: 760577
Posted by: Mike
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:38:53 1997

If you have any ideas on how to improve NYCT bus service on Staten Island, please post it. Thank You.
- Subject: Re: Ideas on how to improve NYCT bus service on Staten Island.
- Message Number: 760617
- Posted by: Bootsy
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:41:03 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Ideas on how to improve NYCT bus service on Staten Island. posted by Mike on December 13, 1997 at 12:38:10: One way would be quite simply, to increase service frequency and not close so many lines on Sundays. Most busses run every 20-30 minutes and many don't operate on Sundays.
  - Subject: Re: Ideas on how to improve NYCT bus service on Staten Island.
  - Message Number: 760697
  - Posted by: si2000
  - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:08:09 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Ideas on how to improve NYCT bus service on Staten Island. posted by Mike on December 13, 1997 at 12:38:10: Re-structure the S57 and S76 buses, creating a new route from New Dorp to the Teleport via Mill Road, Ebbitts Street, Cedar Grove Avenue, New Dorp Lane, Richmond Road, Rockland Avenue, Richmond Avenue, Travis Avenue to Teleport. Extend the S54 to St. George Ferry.

Thread title: Interview for a school project (760580)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:38:59 1997, by David L.

Subject: Interview for a school project
Message Number: 760580
Posted by: David L.
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:38:59 1997

I am working on an I-search paper for my English class and the topic I chose was the original IRTsubway line. I need a few questions answered. Although I know that the answers can be found at this website, my teacher insists that I have an interview with someone. Here are the questions: 1. Where did the first subway in New York city opened? 2. Where did it run? 3. Was it owned by NYC or a private company? 4. There are a few abandoned stations along the original line- what are the names of the stations, where are they located, and why were they abandoned? 5. Why was the subway built? 6. What was the cost of building the subway? 7. How long did it take to build? Thank you for your help, I really appreciate it. You can e-mail responses to these questions to Davidcsvrj@aol.com
- Subject: Re: Interview for a school project
- Message Number: 760581
- Posted by: Christopher Rivera
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:39:02 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Interview for a school project posted by David L. on December 13, 1997 at 14:27:14: 1.The first subway opened in 1904. 2.It ran from City Hall to Woodlawn 231 Street and 241 Street. 3 It was owned by NYC and another company it was called thr inter-brough rapid transit system. 4 yes on e is the city hall station the 91 street station columbus station. 5 So it can help people get from the Bronx to manhattan and I needed to lower the people who take the surface transit. 6 I dont know 7 it took 4 years fom 1900 to 1904. Nice to hlp Christopher Rivera
  - Subject: Re: Interview for a school project
  - Message Number: 760584
  - Posted by: Christopher Rivera
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:39:14 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Interview for a school project posted by David L. on December 13, 1997 at 14:27:14: 1.The first subway opened in 1904. 2.It ran from City Hall to Woodlawn 231 Street and 241 Street. 3 It was owned by NYC and another company it was called thr inter-brough rapid transit system. 4 yes on e is the city hall station the 91 street station columbus station. 5 So it can help people get from the Bronx to manhattan and I needed to lower the people who take the surface transit. 6 I dont know 7 it took 4 years fom 1900 to 1904. Nice to hlp Christopher Rivera
    - Subject: Re: Interview for a school project
    - Message Number: 760605
    - Posted by: subway-buff
    - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:40:22 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Interview for a school project posted by David L. on December 13, 1997 at 14:27:14: I would like to help with the stations: City Hall station, south of the Brooklyn Bride Sta. was closed in the 1940s because the curved paltform, and it was too short and could not be made longer and Brooklyn Brtidge had more people. Also no longeer used is 18th st and Park Ave South- again due to length of paltform and being close to 14th street express stop. The *original* route went from City Hall loop to 145 st and Broadway. It went up what is now the Lexington ave Line to Grand Central(not the current locatiob), turned to what is now the shuttle.(The stop was near the currwent Grand Central Shuttle stop) to Times Square (Shuttle tracks and station) and then uptown on what is now the 1 train to 145 street. The following year it was extended to 145 and lenox with a branch of that to Bronx Park (near the zoo). If youi go to Times Square Shuttle walk to the end of Track 1 as if you were going to walk towards to Bus Station. At the end of tyhe tracks you can see where the tracks turned into the current #1 line. (At Grand Central track 1 connects to the downtown Local#6.) These connections are used only for special trains and during midnight ours to change cars on the shuttle. If you live near NY I suggest you visit the museum underneath 110 Livingston Street (The Board of Education Building.) I am sure they would be thrilled to help you. Good luck- let us know if you get the A+
      - Subject: Re: Interview for a school project
      - Message Number: 760709
      - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
      - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:08:31 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Interview for a school project posted by David L. on December 13, 1997 at 14:27:14: Pardon me for putting in my two cents on behalf of your teacher. As I understand the terminology, your report is supposed to involve an interview. Don't shortchange yourself by substituting an "E-Mail interview". Ten or so years ago my daughter had such an assignment, and I put her in touch with an elderly associate of mine who had served under General George Patton. She still talks about how fascinating the interview was! The advice to visit the Court St. Museum site in Brooklyn should result in meeting a Docent (volunteer) who will be willing to talk your ear off, if you ask him/her.
        
        Subject: Re: Interview for a school project
        Message Number: 760767
        Posted by: sdc-foti
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:10:19 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Interview for a school project posted by Gary Jacobi on December 15, 1997 at 11:46:53: Talk To John Erlitz in the Transit Museum, Attend His tour and ask him Your Questions. Foti.

Thread title: Bx55 (760583)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:39:10 1997, by Christopher Rivera

Subject: Bx55
Message Number: 760583
Posted by: Christopher Rivera
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:39:10 1997

Normally i take the Bx55 to my grandmothers house. It is allways a packed bus line. When i saw 3rd avenue line. That got me mad cause they should have kept the line. What do you think????
- Subject: Re: Bx55
- Message Number: 760591
- Posted by: Serafin Jr
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:39:28 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Bx55 posted by Christopher Rivera on December 13, 1997 at 16:15:44: I am a Bx55 rider and its not fun. I remember the 3ave el as a kid. There where some area that the city buses couldn't pass under. The platform was make of wood and some station could only handle onlt 5 cars. The el was to be replace by the ex 2 ave subway project. Write a letter to your local Poliction. If enough people write them, they may look at getting money for the 2nd ave Project again. BEWARE THEY ARE GOING TO STOP THE BX55 SOON. I feel sorry for you. You better start writing now and get a whole lot of people too.
  - Subject: Re: Bx55
  - Message Number: 760636
  - Posted by: Lefty
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:41:43 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: Bx55 posted by Serafin Jr on December 13, 1997 at 18:46:35: if they stop the BX55 what are they gonna do with all the articulated buses that they bought especially for that line?
    - Subject: Re: Bx55
    - Message Number: 760640
    - Posted by: Serafin Jr
    - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:41:50 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: Bx55 posted by Lefty on December 14, 1997 at 20:52:37: The articulated buses are not only for the BX55. They are used on the BX1 and Bx2. As you read this the MTA are tranfering some for these buses from the KB depot to Gunhill depot Two are at walnut depot for training use and (x) runs durning rush hours. They are going to use some for the buses on the BX12 and run some for (x) run during rush hour. The MTA are going to run more Buses (non- Articulated) on the BX15 to make up for the lost of the BX55. You know what that means, A long wait for a overcrowded bus. To those who read this please E-mail or snail mail the MTA to keep the BX55 running. The MTA made a mistake in the 70's by removing the 3rd ave El and replacing it with the overcrowded bx55 bus service, lets not let them make another mistake. For those who have strings to pull please yake it very hard. The people of the Bronx need this service. Thank you very much. IN MEMORY OF THE OLD 3RD AVE EL. LET THE BX55 RUN.

Thread title: Questions for David L. Re: Brooklyn Tech (760589)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:39:24 1997, by Steve

Subject: Questions for David L. Re: Brooklyn Tech
Message Number: 760589
Posted by: Steve
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:39:24 1997

In Reply to: [7]Re: What's Your Daily Commute? posted by David L. on December 07, 1997 at 13:07:12: David, Just curious, Did they change the school song now that they have admitted girls. (Was "Tech alma mater, molder of men")? Is Mrs. Bott (my favorite teacher) still there? E-Mail me so we don't waste Dave's space Biology wouldn't be my first choice but hang in there

Thread title: Nostalgia Train Report (Plus other news) (760592)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:39:30 1997, by subway-buff

Subject: Nostalgia Train Report (Plus other news)
Message Number: 760592
Posted by: subway-buff
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:39:30 1997

The train departed from the musuem on the spur to clinton/washington where we reversed fdirection to Jay street and reversed again to switch to the F to Coney Ilsand. We ran on the *express track** and saw the lower level of bergen street. It is clean, has current style exit signs, no name signs(as far as I saw) and the stairs to the upper level are in place.There is no tile on the wall. We ran on the express track to Church (Taking the short cut bypass for 15th and 7 av) where we ran ont he center track to Stilwell. After a lunch break (at nathan's) we ran on the Brighton Line to W4 via Manhattan bridge(the same tracks the D uses). A highlight here was a slow run through the closed Myrtle Flatbush station northbound platform. At west 4 we switched to the A line to return to Hoyt where we switched back to the spur to the musuem. We used three triplexes for the trip- the set in the musuem and 2 other sets (1 set is a three section car). **news** when 63 street opens: F runs express in brooklyn and G runs local to Kings Highway. The Q will (if bridge opens) return to Broadway and the V will run super express from 179. Bridge is 2005 if luck holds up. New calendars from museum due late this month or early Jan.
- Subject: Re: Nostalgia Train Report (Plus other news)
- Message Number: 760627
- Posted by: Steve
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:41:26 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Nostalgia Train Report (Plus other news) posted by subway-buff on December 13, 1997 at 19:29:11: Thanks for the update 'SB'. The museum gets better info than we do - I guess.

Thread title: Subway train speed (760595)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:39:44 1997, by Gideon Sims

Subject: Subway train speed
Message Number: 760595
Posted by: Gideon Sims
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:39:44 1997

does anyone know the average speed of today's subway trains? i'd appreciate any help
- Subject: Re: Subway train speed
- Message Number: 760606
- Posted by: GarfieldA
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:40:25 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Subway train speed posted by Gideon Sims on December 13, 1997 at 19:40:22: After a few subway accidents during the past few years, the MTA has lowered the speed on most of the subway lines. In certain lines that provide express service, the original was at least from 40-45 miles. Now the speeds have been reduced to 30-35 miles. These signs are yellow to orange signs and are along side the rail or wall of the tracks. The text in bold black letters will say : "40 miles" Of course in order to see them, you will have to be on a train that has a front viewable window in the front car. Trains like the BMT J, M, Z, and L have this feature.
  - Subject: Re: Subway train speed
  - Message Number: 760612
  - Posted by: Cool Knight
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:40:41 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Subway train speed posted by Gideon Sims on December 13, 1997 at 19:40:22: The normal train Speed is 40-50 miles per hour but on the express it is 50-60 miles per hour. One time the Q train was going 87 miles per hour
    - Subject: Re: Subway train speed
    - Message Number: 760613
    - Posted by: Steve
    - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:40:45 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Subway train speed posted by Gideon Sims on December 13, 1997 at 19:40:22: I assume that you are speaking about NYCT equipment. If so, following propulsion system modification to slow the trains down, the agerage speed is 35-40 MPH on level, tangent track. If you are interested in speed, some of the fastest segments of the system are: 1)Downtown #4 from 125 St to midtown 2)D/Q/B downtown between 34th Street and W4 St. 3)N train Queens-bound through the 60th street tube. Contrary to what might be posted below, no Q train ever went 87 MPH. Prior to modification, the R-68/R-68A class had a top speed of roughly 55 MPH. An R-46 equipped to operate in full field shunting (not 100% field shunting), on a test track out west,(during testing by the federal Gov't.) achieved a speed of nearly 100 MPH however, I can not document the test...
      - Subject: Re: Subway train speed
      - Message Number: 760615
      - Posted by: GarfieldA
      - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:40:53 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Subway train speed posted by Cool Knight on December 14, 1997 at 11:27:20: How do you know if the Q train was going at that amount of speed. Were you in the motorman's cab or something. And another, which part of the line was the train going fast.
        
        Subject: Re: Subway train speed
        Message Number: 760616
        Posted by: Bootsy
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:40:58 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Subway train speed posted by Cool Knight on December 14, 1997 at 11:27:20: 87, man! No way! Couldn't have been that fast! Maybe 87 km/h . . .
        
        Subject: Re: Subway train speed
        Message Number: 760623
        Posted by: Tim Speer
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:41:15 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Subway train speed posted by Cool Knight on December 14, 1997 at 11:27:20: I strongly doubt a Q train has ever gone 87 miles per hour. With the spacing of stations on the NYC subway system, speeds like this would be incredibly unsafe. That doesn't mean a train of R68's or even R46's couldn't go this fast if all the conditions were right, but the speeds on NYC subway cars are governed. I rode BART back in in the 1970's, and the speedometer read 83. Anybody know if they use MPH or KPH? This was during the Carter administration, so one never knows...
        
        Subject: Re: Subway train speed
        Message Number: 760632
        Posted by: apardi
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:41:36 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Subway train speed posted by Steve on December 14, 1997 at 12:06:06: I used to have an R68 consist on the N astoria wrapped around after clearing the timers southbound in the 60th st tube and achieved 58 mph after the trains were modified. same for R46 r southbound in the tube 56-58 mph once the last timers have cleared for 50 mph .
        
        Subject: Re: Subway train speed
        Message Number: 760634
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:41:40 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Subway train speed posted by apardi on December 14, 1997 at 19:06:31: Had a 68A on the post in 60th St. tube a few weeks ago and max was 49 (I was not operating). Of course we had a pretty good load at the time. Can't compare the 46s to 68s since the gear ratio is different.
        
        Subject: Re: Subway train speed
        Message Number: 760643
        Posted by: Serafin Jr
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:41:57 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Subway train speed posted by Steve on December 14, 1997 at 12:06:06: The MTA tested the one set of R-46 on the LIRR back in the 70's. The top speed was a dissapointing 72 mph before half of the R-46 motor failed. That is document on April 1977 highlight newletter.
        
        Subject: Re: Subway train speed
        Message Number: 760644
        Posted by: Serafin JR
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:41:59 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Subway train speed posted by apardi on December 14, 1997 at 19:06:31: I have also seen what Apardi seen at the southbound 60th st tube. a R46 at 58 mph. Surpize that a motor or two didn't fail on that Pullman r46 juck.
        
        Subject: Re: Subway train speed
        Message Number: 760690
        Posted by: Nathan
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:07:55 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Subway train speed posted by Cool Knight on December 14, 1997 at 11:27:20: 87mph?? It's been a while but I remember the NYC Subway for it's tight station spacing- how could a train get up to that speed and then decellerate to the next station without overshooting the platform?? Overshoots are kinda fun though...
        
        Subject: Re: Subway train speed
        Message Number: 760717
        Posted by: Charles Fiori
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:08:45 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Subway train speed posted by Tim Speer on December 14, 1997 at 15:31:58: If the Q was going 87, I am sure the measuring unit was kph, not mph. That is about 55mph. The R44s, when going through acceptance testing, ran along the LIRR through Forest Hills, etc. They hit at least in the 70s (mph). I think there was a story of when they sent the R44s over to the LIRR, they had to account for the different voltages through the 3d rails. When they took them back, they didn't make the appropriate changes and all heck broke loose with the ventilation system. Same sort of thing happened when the R32s ran over the NYCentral tracks. (Actually I am certain of the story's occurrence w/ the R32s, not so certain with the R44s.)
        
        Subject: Re: Subway train speed
        Message Number: 760734
        Posted by: Cool Knight
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:09:15 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Subway train speed posted by Nathan on December 15, 1997 at 02:25:51: It is true. Do you know that lonk straght way between Kings Hwy and NewKirk Ave for the Q on the Express you can high speed. Try it you will might get a driver who likes to be on time and will use the Stright a way to an advantage.
        
        Subject: Re: Subway train speed
        Message Number: 760768
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:10:21 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Subway train speed posted by Cool Knight on December 15, 1997 at 19:40:16: There is no 87 MPH. According to the speed vs distance tables for the R-68/R68A fleets, it takes 3,900 feet of level-tangent track to achieve a speed of 40 MPH. Top speed - regardless of distance on straight-level track is 45-48 MPH.
        
        Subject: Re: Subway train speed
        Message Number: 760783
        Posted by: Nathan
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:10:47 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Subway train speed posted by Steve on December 16, 1997 at 11:37:31: 3900 feet of straight and level track to get to 40??? I didn't know that the acceleration was THAT bad... By the way, I have only been to NYC a few times, but each time I go the subway seems to travel slower. Anyone else notice it? could just be me, I guess...
        
        Subject: Re: Subway train speed
        Message Number: 760792
        Posted by: Cool Knight
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:11:02 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Subway train speed posted by Bootsy on December 14, 1997 at 13:32:00: Does anybody know if it is kilometers of miles?????

Thread title: Anyone else- PLEASE :-) (760602)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:40:14 1997, by David L.

Subject: Anyone else- PLEASE :-)
Message Number: 760602
Posted by: David L.
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:40:14 1997

In Reply to: [7]Interview for a school project posted by David L. on December 13, 1997 at 14:27:14: Christopher- thank you for your time-you are the only one who took time to respond :-) Anyone else with a second opinion, I truly would appreciate it.

Thread title: The New Transit System (760611)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:40:39 1997, by Cool Knight

Subject: The New Transit System
Message Number: 760611
Posted by: Cool Knight
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:40:39 1997

You heard of the 3rd avenue line you heard of the Culver Shuttle. Now try to help me Christopher Rivera setup and expand these old lines. So that we can lower prices and have a better system. Look at the Historical section and look at the old lines and then give me the ideas and extendtions and when I have enough signatures i wiil sent to the MTA president and the State and City councel.Thaks Christopher Rivera

Thread title: R142 & R144 (760622)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:41:13 1997, by Shunya Togashi

Subject: R142 & R144
Message Number: 760622
Posted by: Shunya Togashi
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:41:13 1997

Does anyone know exactly when these cars are going to be delivered??? will his be the last year for the R33, R36 and R38's??? I am real desperate to know because I want to get some good shots of these oldies before they're gone.... thanks Shunya Togashi
- Subject: Re: R142 & R144
- Message Number: 760626
- Posted by: Steve
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:41:24 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]R142 & R144 posted by Shunya Togashi on December 14, 1997 at 15:23:37: I think the 33s and 36s will be around through 1999. There are no plans to replace the 38s when the R-143s are delivered. The R-40 slants will likely go first.
  - Subject: Re: R142 & R144
  - Message Number: 760746
  - Posted by: George
  - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:09:35 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: R142 & R144 posted by Steve on December 14, 1997 at 17:02:43: When the R32's and R38's leave, I stop using the system. As a child I was fascinated by luster stainless steel and blue doors (R32's). It sure beat looking at dusty black exteriors which I was amazed to find out was actually drab olive green. I know everyone loves BMT Standards and R1-9, but I always found them hideous but still showed more character then anything produced within the last 20 years. I guess things must chance but at least when they came out, it was like a breath of fresh air. Even the so called lemons, R-40 slants, show some consideration to design. THese new trains look like elongated AMC Pacers automobiles. I love the NYC Subway system but man what plain looking rolling stock.
    - Subject: Re: R142 & R144
    - Message Number: 760779
    - Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
    - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:10:39 1997
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: R142 & R144 posted by George on December 16, 1997 at 00:15:11: It's been suggested that the R32/38 could continue in service for 20+ more years, if the maintainence is kept up, due to the overly extensive rebuild of these cars, which replaced everything but the frames and bodies. The R40/42 cars, however, were bad in the begining, and rebuilt worse. -Hank
      - Subject: Re: R142 & R144
      - Message Number: 760787
      - Posted by: Bootsy
      - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:10:54 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: R142 & R144 posted by Hank Eisenstein on December 16, 1997 at 13:53:32: If the R-32s and R-38s are rebuilt again, do you think some of the original charateristics will return, like the blue doors, large destination sign up front and the straps?
        
        Subject: Re: R142 & R144
        Message Number: 760795
        Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:11:07 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: R142 & R144 posted by Bootsy on December 16, 1997 at 17:52:36: I can see the ta rebuilding the R32 and R38 forever. These are sturdy, solidly built cars, and as long as the frames and bodies are in shape, mechanical rebuilds should be all they need...motors, trucks, etc are normal maintaince, so really door and door motor replacements, controller rebulds, and a/c repairs are all they should need. -Hank
        
        Subject: Re: R142 & R144
        Message Number: 760806
        Posted by: sdc-foti
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:11:27 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: R142 & R144 posted by Bootsy on December 16, 1997 at 17:52:36: I don't think so, the fad is stainless steel and not paint, i don't think they want to put good old fashioned roll signs into the sign holders. The "Cyclops" are here to stay. -foti
        
        Subject: Re: R142 & R144
        Message Number: 760815
        Posted by: a R68A passenger
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:11:42 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: R142 & R144 posted by Bootsy on December 16, 1997 at 17:52:36: Would it be a good idea to install the "ding-dong" closing door noises on R32 and R38 if they have rebuilt again?

Thread title: East River Crossings study (760625)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:41:21 1997, by Eric B

Subject: East River Crossings study
Message Number: 760625
Posted by: Eric B
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:41:21 1997

On Thurs. 12-4, MTA officials held a public forum on the East River Crossings study, which deals with the subway tunnes and bridges connecting Brooklyn and Manhattan below 14th St, with a focus on the Manhattan Bridge, with its constant need of repairs, and threats of closures. The Task 8 report was printed in a thick binder, and includes 16 Manhattan Bridge service plans made up of four improvement packages: MBA2, TSM, MBA 5, and MBA8 in four Bridge scenarios: C: fully closed; S: Bway side (H) open only ; N: 6th Av (AB) side open only; and O: fully open. The highlight of MBA 2 and 5 is the Deka;b-Rutgers connection, to connect the BMT southern division to the Rutgers St. tunnel, used by the F. The two lines cross right near the Brooklyn approach of the Manhattan Bridge. TSM was a low-cost option that requires no major building. MBA 2 and 8 also include the addition of a pair of flying crossovers near the IRT's Nostrand Junction, around the Franklin Av station, and extension of the tracks beyond Flatbush to a new layup area, to increase IRT capacity. All options include lengthening of #3 trains from 9 to 10 cars, and a transfer from Lawrence St. to Jay St.All the options except MBA5 cut the C back to WTC, and send the E express to the Rockaways, and the A local to Euclid. The most fascinating thing about the study to me was the service plans. In the TSM and MBA8 options, which do not include the Rutgers connection, we get to see exactly how the TA would run service if the bridge shut completely down now, compete with peak hr headways. In TSM, the Q would run 12 trains, all local in Brooklyn, and 7 trains leaving Brighton Beach (called "QS") would run to Franklin. The B of course would go to Pacific, the M to chambers, the N and R would run 8 trains each, for a total of 28 trains through the Montague tunnel. An "FV" would run from Coney Is to 179th St via 63rd St, while the regular F would run normal. (All plans include the opening of the 63rd St connection). Both lines would run 14 trains. In MBA8, there is no QS or FV, instead, the Q runs by itself on the Brighton, still 12 trains, and extends via the Bway connection to 63rd st to Queens. This is the only one that uses that connection. To be continued.
- Subject: Re: East River Crossings study
- Message Number: 760629
- Posted by: Cool Knight
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:41:30 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]East River Crossings study posted by Eric B on December 14, 1997 at 16:23:59: THat is bad thay are going to take away the best thing that the MTA has. That is going to raise prices.
  - Subject: Re: East River Crossings study
  - Message Number: 760638
  - Posted by: subway-buff
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:41:47 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]East River Crossings study posted by Eric B on December 14, 1997 at 16:23:59: could you post the link to the report. or can you post a chart shwoing the various plans and effects on various trains? I for one would be interested, as would our site host
    - Subject: Re: East River Crossings study
    - Message Number: 760740
    - Posted by: Andrew Huie
    - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:09:25 1997
      
      In Reply to: [8]East River Crossings study posted by Eric B on December 14, 1997 at 16:23:59: So that seems to pretty much settles it - whether or not the Manhattan bridge remains open, there will never be a replacement for it. Instead, if it closes completely, they plan to 'massage' the remaining services in an effort to compensate. In a case like that, I would hate to be one of the people who depended on the MB for their commute. Also, why are they proposing to extend E service to the Rockaways, cutting the A back to Euclid, and the C to Chambers? Again I'm missing the point regarding a rather seemingly unnecessary change, other than it gives E riders from Jamaica better access to lower Manhattan (but there is no need to make the A a local in Bklyn in such a case). Didn't the E used to be express in Bklyn and the A local up until the mid-70's?
      - Subject: Re: East River Crossings study
      - Message Number: 760842
      - Posted by: Eric B
      - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:12:31 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: East River Crossings study posted by Andrew Huie on December 15, 1997 at 22:41:22: The purpose of extending the E back to Brooklyn was an alternative to the idea of lengthening line C trains. The E runs more trains, as well as longer ones (10 cars instead of the C's 8), and therefore holds more people. The idea is to make up for lost Manh.Br. capacity on the other crossings. The chosen alternative, MBA5, does not include this switch, so it will not be implemented.
        
        Subject: Re: East River Crossings study
        Message Number: 760887
        Posted by: Danny
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:14:01 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: East River Crossings study posted by Eric B on December 17, 1997 at 19:49:42: Wait a minute... They are considering to enlongate the E (again) back into Rockaway... WHY? I think there will be delays in the service, since the trip takes you from Jamaica, through Queens, into Manhattan, into Brooklyn, and then into Queens again?! Holy long trip...

Thread title: Re: East River Crossings study (pt2) (760628)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:41:28 1997, by Eric B

Subject: Re: East River Crossings study (pt2)
Message Number: 760628
Posted by: Eric B
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:41:28 1997

In Reply to: [6]East River Crossings study posted by Eric B on December 14, 1997 at 16:23:59: Had to break this because I keep getting knocked off, and I don't want to have to keep rewriting, so sorry. In all of the Rutgers options, the Q is the line theat runs through the connection, to 179th, because it can stay on the local tracks to get to 63rd St, while the B and D would have to cross over to the express tracks. Even with Rutgers, when the bridge is fully closed the West End is a shuttle, and there is no M. Also, you wind up with the D on Bway, and the Q on 6th Av. (on "S"- H tracks open scenarios also) What a reversal! I hope these letter assignments are tentative, because not only is there the split D service, but if the Q becomes the Rutgers-63rd St. service, it will be permanently fixed to 6th Av, when we all want to see it eventually go back to Bway. (It only does in the non-Rutgers "H" side open scenarios. Even in the Fully open scenarios, it travels its current route via AB tracks and 6th Av/63rd St exp.) So I hope the Rutgers service becomes "V" and the Q replaces the Bway D. In TSM & MBA8 -O, the additional H track capacity is used by a T that goes via West End to 57th/7th, even while the B is running! (The T is not used to replace Bway B during H side open scenarios, though. Cont.
- Subject: Re: East River Crossings study (pt2)
- Message Number: 760702
- Posted by: Chris C.
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:08:19 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: East River Crossings study (pt2) posted by Eric B on December 14, 1997 at 17:13:16: Wow, that's all very confusing. It seems to me that service across the East river can be improved in several ways which may not seem to be related to the various crossings. For starters, building a cross over tunnel connecting the 6 train at Bleeker street with Inbound F service at Bway/Laf would be doing a world of service for a lot of people along the F and G lines in Brooklyn. How much could this possibly cost when compared to the measure of improvement for so many riders? The MTA does have a surpluss!! I would also hope that any plans for the Manhattan Bridge include walkways and bike lanes which is a much needed resource and promotes alternate means of transportation which can help to ease congestion on various lines.
  - Subject: Re: East River Crossings study (pt2)
  - Message Number: 760727
  - Posted by: Eric B
  - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:09:02 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: East River Crossings study (pt2) posted by Chris C. on December 15, 1997 at 09:55:35: I forgot to mention that the Bleecker Transfer is part of the MBA5 plan that will be implemented
    - Subject: Re: East River Crossings study (pt2)
    - Message Number: 760745
    - Posted by: How about this?
    - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:09:33 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: East River Crossings study (pt2) posted by Eric B on December 15, 1997 at 15:03:33: Note: This does not consider funding but: Build the Rutgers tunnel connection and move the bridge tracks to the center with two tracks reconnected to Broadway but with a possible crossover to Chrystie St. for alternate routing. Grand St. could be a southern terminal for Six Avenue Lines keeping its connect with the bridge for alternate routing should need come (regular would probably be impractical unless flying junctions can be constructed although I doubt there is enough tunnel length for that). This way there are three inlets from Manhattan into the BMT Lines (Dekalk Avenue). They can move the subways off the bridge but I guarantee they still be fixing the bridge forever

Thread title: OPTO on G line? (760630)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:41:33 1997, by David L.

Subject: OPTO on G line?
Message Number: 760630
Posted by: David L.
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:41:33 1997

I noticed that they recently installed a yellow OPTO station stop card sign on the south-bound platform of the Fulton Street station on the G line. Is the MTA planning to expand OPTO to thsi line?
- Subject: Re: OPTO on G line?
- Message Number: 760631
- Posted by: a.pardi
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:41:35 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]OPTO on G line? posted by David L. on December 14, 1997 at 18:38:36: you can bet your last dollar mta will put opto on the "G". infact probably 1998-99
  - Subject: Re: OPTO on G line?
  - Message Number: 760633
  - Posted by: Steve
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:41:38 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]OPTO on G line? posted by David L. on December 14, 1997 at 18:38:36: As sure as X-Mas is coming !!!
    - Subject: Re: OPTO on G line?
    - Message Number: 760647
    - Posted by: Peter Rosa
    - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:42:07 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: OPTO on G line? posted by a.pardi on December 14, 1997 at 19:01:48: Actually, I'm a bit surprised that the G wasn't one of the first lines to get late-night OPTO service, as it tends to be lightly patronized during those hours. I wouldn't be surprised to see several more lines with late-night OPTO service before long. Probably the only ones reasonably certain not to get it would be the 1 and the 4 (curved platforms), the 7 (can't be done with Redbirds, plus ridership is too high), and maybe the A and the E (high ridership).
      - Subject: Re: OPTO on G line?
      - Message Number: 760707
      - Posted by: Charles Fiori
      - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:08:28 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: OPTO on G line? posted by Peter Rosa on December 14, 1997 at 22:45:52: 10 car trains should not have OPTO-period! Certainly not in rush hour anyway.

Thread title: Transit info (760635)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:41:41 1997, by Joseph P. Saitta

Subject: Transit info
Message Number: 760635
Posted by: Joseph P. Saitta
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:41:41 1997

Each year we produce the Metro New York Area Bus Mega Calendar�. Features NY and NJ buses, historical and contemporary. 55 full-color, full-page photos, one for each week. Glossy stock, spiral-bound. 1996, 1997 and 1998 editions still available. For more information and sample page, send a #10 self-addressed stamped envelope to: Mega Calendars� PO Box 123 Merrick NY 11566 or fax/phone: 516-379-3319 or E-mail at �MegaCalndr@AOL.com� Also have large inventory of thousands of black and white bus, streetcar and subway photos, primarily from East Coast, but especially from NY & NJ, from post World War II to early the 1960s. Available: Nassau County's only preserved and operating historical bus.

Thread title: articulated buses (760641)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:41:52 1997, by Serafin Jr

Subject: articulated buses
Message Number: 760641
Posted by: Serafin Jr
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:41:52 1997

The articulated buses are not only for the BX55. They are used on the BX1 and Bx2. As you read this the MTA are tranfering some for these buses from the KB depot to Gunhill depot Two are at walnut depot for training use and (x) runs durning rush hours. They are going to use some for the buses on the BX12 and run some for (x) run during rush hour. The MTA are going to run more Buses (non- Articulated) on the BX15 to make up for the lost of the BX55. You know what that means, A long wait for a overcrowded bus. To those who read this please E-mail or snail mail the MTA to keep the BX55 running. The MTA made a mistake in the 70's by removing the 3rd ave El and replacing it with the overcrowded bx55 bus service, lets not let them make another mistake. For those who have strings to pull please yake it very hard. The people of the Bronx need this service. Thank you very much. IN MEMORY OF THE OLD 3RD AVE EL. LET THE BX55 RUN.
- Subject: Re: articulated buses
- Message Number: 760645
- Posted by: Lefty
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:42:01 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]articulated buses posted by Serafin Jr on December 14, 1997 at 22:05:30: i know about the bx1 and bx2.. being that i live 2 minutes from the end of the bx1 in riverdale.. i plan on taking some pictures of the artics tomorow and scanning them to contribute to teh bus depot website...
  - Subject: Re: articulated buses
  - Message Number: 760650
  - Posted by: Joe-M
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:42:14 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: articulated buses posted by Lefty on December 14, 1997 at 22:33:32: What is the address of the bus depot pages?? I would like to take a look. Articulated buses are effective a peak times but the expense for use during peak hours may not justify the savings in labor and they have a tendecy to increase headways 2 artics = 3 regular buses. You get the same cappacity but less frequent service

Thread title: In Memory of the 3RD AVE EL (760642)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:41:54 1997, by Serafin Jr

Subject: In Memory of the 3RD AVE EL
Message Number: 760642
Posted by: Serafin Jr
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:41:54 1997

The articulated buses are not only for the BX55. They are used on the BX1 and Bx2. As you read this the MTA are tranfering some for these buses from the KB depot to Gunhill depot Two are at walnut depot for training use and (x) runs durning rush hours. They are going to use some for the buses on the BX12 and run some for (x) run during rush hour. The MTA are going to run more Buses (non- Articulated) on the BX15 to make up for the lost of the BX55. You know what that means, A long wait for a overcrowded bus. To those who read this please E-mail or snail mail the MTA to keep the BX55 running. The MTA made a mistake in the 70's by removing the 3rd ave El and replacing it with the overcrowded bx55 bus service, lets not let them make another mistake. For those who have strings to pull please yake it very hard. The people of the Bronx need this service. Thank you very much. IN MEMORY OF THE OLD 3RD AVE EL. LET THE BX55 RUN.
- Subject: Re: In Memory of the 3RD AVE EL
- Message Number: 760712
- Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:08:37 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]In Memory of the 3RD AVE EL posted by Serafin Jr on December 14, 1997 at 22:06:41: When the Bronx part of the 3rd Avenue El was to be torn down, the promise was made that a new "3rd Avenue" line would be built at the NY Central tracks, even using them or a parallel new construction. It would be part of the 2nd Avenue Subway. Unfortunately, it is a part of the 2nd Avenue Subway, just an un realized dream.
  - Subject: Re: In Memory of the 3RD AVE EL
  - Message Number: 760824
  - Posted by: Mellow One
  - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:11:58 1997
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: In Memory of the 3RD AVE EL posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 15, 1997 at 12:02:36: I thought the unfinished 2nd Ave Subway was going to connect with the former New Haven Harlem line tracks.
    - Subject: Re: In Memory of the 3RD AVE EL
    - Message Number: 760827
    - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
    - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:12:03 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: In Memory of the 3RD AVE EL posted by Mellow One on December 17, 1997 at 16:49:02: Don't feel bad; I actually thought the Second Ave subway would be BUILT.
      - Subject: Re: In Memory of the 3RD AVE EL
      - Message Number: 760886
      - Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
      - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:14:00 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: In Memory of the 3RD AVE EL posted by Mellow One on December 17, 1997 at 16:49:02: Correct... The former New York Central Harlem Line tracks run extremely close to 3rd and Webster Avenues in the Bronx. That would be the replacement for the Bronx part of the 3rd Avenue line, either the actual tracks or a parallel system on the Right of way. I guess I didn't say it quite that way.
        
        Subject: Re: In Memory of the 3RD AVE EL
        Message Number: 760913
        Posted by: Mellow One
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:14:50 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: In Memory of the 3RD AVE EL posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 18, 1997 at 16:14:27: Read my note again, the NYNH&H (New Haven) Halem River line, the line that the Hells Gate Bridge (NY Connecting RR) connects with. It was also the route of the NYW&B the Bronx part of which became the Dyre Ave Line.
        
        Subject: Re: In Memory of the 3RD AVE EL
        Message Number: 760986
        Posted by: Andrew Huie
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:17:15 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: In Memory of the 3RD AVE EL posted by Mellow One on December 18, 1997 at 23:20:18: Actually, the NYW&B connected with the current Amtrak line, not with the New Haven/Harlem tracks near Third Avenue.
        
        Subject: Re: In Memory of the 3RD AVE EL
        Message Number: 760995
        Posted by: Mellow One
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:17:33 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: In Memory of the 3RD AVE EL posted by Andrew Huie on December 21, 1997 at 02:50:33: I give up. See the 2nd Ave line news reply by Andrew Byler.
        
        Subject: Re: In Memory of the 3RD AVE EL
        Message Number: 761035
        Posted by: Andrew Huie
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:18:45 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: In Memory of the 3RD AVE EL posted by Mellow One on December 21, 1997 at 09:05:59: Sorry, I finally understood what you were trying to say. It's probably a good idea not to describe the line that goes through the hell gate bridge as the 'harlem river line' since it's easy to confuse it with the harlem line.
        
        Subject: Re: In Memory of the 3RD AVE EL
        Message Number: 761084
        Posted by: Mellow One
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:20:25 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: In Memory of the 3RD AVE EL posted by Andrew Huie on December 22, 1997 at 01:38:22: One more item to stir up the pot. They could sill could get to the NYC Harlem Line track from the NYC Port Morris tracks. Have a Merry Christmas.

Thread title: Visitor's Pass? (760646)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:42:03 1997, by Rich

Subject: Visitor's Pass?
Message Number: 760646
Posted by: Rich
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:42:03 1997

I'll be visiting NYC soon. Does New York's subway system offer an all-day visitor's pass like Washington DC or Boston? If so, how do I get one. Please e-mail me if you know the answer. Thanks!
- Subject: Re: Visitor's Pass?
- Message Number: 760713
- Posted by: Peter Rosa
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:08:39 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Visitor's Pass? posted by Rich on December 14, 1997 at 22:41:40: Plans have been announced for a day pass on the subway, allowing unlimited rides for $4. There will be $17 weekly and $63 monthly equivalents. Unfortunately, no start date has yet been announced.
  - Subject: Re: Visitor's Pass?
  - Message Number: 760724
  - Posted by: Joe Rappaport
  - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:08:57 1997
    
    In Reply to: [8]Visitor's Pass? posted by Rich on December 14, 1997 at 22:41:40: The daily pass, along with the monthly and weekly pass, will be available sometime next summer. -- Joe Rappaport, Straphangers Campaign

Thread title: The record?? (760656)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:44:57 1997, by ____________________________________________________

Subject: The record??
Message Number: 760656
Posted by: ____________________________________________________
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:44:57 1997
- Subject: Re: The record??
- Message Number: 760657
- Posted by: ____________________________________________________
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:45:00 1997
  - Subject: Re: The record??
  - Message Number: 760658
  - Posted by: ____________________________________________________
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:45:07 1997
    - Subject: Re: The record??
    - Message Number: 760661
    - Posted by: ____________________________________________________
    - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:45:13 1997
      - Subject: Re: The record??
      - Message Number: 760671
      - Posted by: ____________________________________________________
      - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:45:35 1997
        
        Subject: Re: The record??
        Message Number: 760676
        Posted by: ____________________________________________________
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:45:44 1997
        
        Subject: Re: The record??
        Message Number: 760684
        Posted by: ____________________________________________________
        Date: Wed Dec 17 15:46:01 1997

Thread title: Re: #7 and #5 IRT (Identra Loops) (760672)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:45:37 1997, by ____________________________________________________

Subject: Re: #7 and #5 IRT (Identra Loops)
Message Number: 760672
Posted by: ____________________________________________________
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:45:37 1997
- Subject: Re: #7 and #5 IRT (Identra Loops)
- Message Number: 760679
- Posted by: ____________________________________________________
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:45:50 1997

Thread title: Last week's collision-Steinway Street (760675)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:45:43 1997, by ____________________________________________________

Subject: Last week's collision-Steinway Street
Message Number: 760675
Posted by: ____________________________________________________
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:45:43 1997
- Subject: Re: Last week's collision-Steinway Street
- Message Number: 760678
- Posted by: ____________________________________________________
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:45:48 1997
  - Subject: Re: Last week's collision-Steinway Street
  - Message Number: 760682
  - Posted by: ____________________________________________________
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:45:57 1997

Thread title: Re: Subway Derby Record - Some Help Please, Todd (760681)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:45:55 1997, by ____________________________________________________

Subject: Re: Subway Derby Record - Some Help Please, Todd
Message Number: 760681
Posted by: ____________________________________________________
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:45:55 1997

Thread title: Identra Loops (760685)
Started on Wed Dec 17 15:46:03 1997, by ____________________________________________________

Subject: Identra Loops
Message Number: 760685
Posted by: ____________________________________________________
Date: Wed Dec 17 15:46:03 1997
- Subject: Re: Identra Loops
- Message Number: 760686
- Posted by: ____________________________________________________
- Date: Wed Dec 17 15:46:04 1997
  - Subject: Re: Identra Loops
  - Message Number: 760687
  - Posted by: ____________________________________________________
  - Date: Wed Dec 17 15:46:06 1997

Thread title: Photos needed (760689)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:07:52 1997, by Jim Garrison

Subject: Photos needed
Message Number: 760689
Posted by: Jim Garrison
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:07:52 1997

I am trying to obtain photos of the 50's era subway stations in brooklyn. Also the Brooklyn Cars(Subway) I would also like to get a line on old subway signs from Brooklyn, or photos of same. If you can help, please e-mail me. Thank you
- Subject: Re: Photos needed
- Message Number: 760698
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:08:11 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Photos needed posted by Jim Garrison on December 15, 1997 at 02:12:07: There's lots and lots of photos here... see [8]http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/ for subway car photos arranged by type. Just browse! -Dave

Thread title: Seattle Metro plans... what? (760692)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:08:00 1997, by Nathan

Subject: Seattle Metro plans... what?
Message Number: 760692
Posted by: Nathan
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:08:00 1997

Ok, I heard recently that the go ahead has been given to build a light rail line and an eighty mile commuter train (the "sounder", what a name :( ) in the Seattle area. I have two questions regarding this matter: 1)How the hell are they going to get light rail trains up the impossibly steep downtown hills? 2)Does anyone have any info on where the lines will run (ie their intended alignments) and when the systems are expected to be brought on-line? Thanx
- Subject: Re: Seattle Metro plans... what?
- Message Number: 760720
- Posted by: Gary Jacobi
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:08:51 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Seattle Metro plans... what? posted by Nathan on December 15, 1997 at 02:32:55: My Seattle sources tell me this is a long standing plan which will utilize existing track along the shore of Puget Sound, essentially. Climbing the hills will be left to walking and busses. This could relieve some of the bus load on 99 and I-5, but would require a forced transfer to the light rail system for those used to taking the bus all the way to the "subway" downtown. They did this to us here in Sacramento ten years ago, and we eventually "forgot" the 30 min. all bus ride, and tolerated the 50 min ride with transfer to light rail.
  - Subject: Re: Seattle Metro plans... what?
  - Message Number: 760742
  - Posted by: Zack
  - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:09:28 1997
    
    In Reply to: [8]Seattle Metro plans... what? posted by Nathan on December 15, 1997 at 02:32:55: 1) there going to extend the bus tunnel (the monorail may take over for the north seattle light rail i hope)

Thread title: Re: OPTO on G line? OPTO in Chicago (760693)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:08:02 1997, by Charles Fiori

Subject: Re: OPTO on G line? OPTO in Chicago
Message Number: 760693
Posted by: Charles Fiori
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:08:02 1997

In Reply to: [6]OPTO on G line? posted by David L. on December 14, 1997 at 18:38:36: Riding the CTA yesterday, down from Linden-Wilmette, it was interesting to see the signs in the trains heralding the arrival of OPTO. The sign said that "OPTO is the standard in most major cities." 1st laugh... 2d laugh...The operators to whom I spoke on the Purple line were quite adamant in their view that operations management is not consulting either them or their riders about the switch. The woman, who apparently was a line supervisor, said, "All it will take would be 1 major incident for people to realize what a compromise to safety OPTO is. The riders are being left out in the cold."
- Subject: Re: OPTO on G line? OPTO in Chicago
- Message Number: 760703
- Posted by: John B. Bredin
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:08:21 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Re: OPTO on G line? OPTO in Chicago posted by Charles Fiori on December 15, 1997 at 08:14:12: OPTO on the CTA Blue and Red Lines has been a real pain in the neck. The Brown (Ravenswood) Line has mostly outside platforms, as does the Purple (Evanston) Line, and though the Orange (Midway) Line has mostly center platforms, the cars for that line came modified for one-man operation (the modified cars are used on the Brown Line as well). But the Red and Blue lines are by far the two busiest lines of the system, have mostly center platforms, and run in subways downtown. The cars for those lines haven't been modified for OPTO yet, and the trainman crossing to and from the control booth to open center-platform doors adds 5-10 minutes to the average trip into downtown! A lot of people in Chicago (myself included) can see the CTA's reasons for OPTO on the L lines, but not on the subway lines.
  - Subject: Re: OPTO on G line? OPTO in Chicago
  - Message Number: 760843
  - Posted by: Shunya Togashi
  - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:12:32 1997
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: OPTO on G line? OPTO in Chicago posted by John B. Bredin on December 15, 1997 at 10:13:12: i was on the culver line at smith 9th today takin photo's when i saw a sign that said "Opto S" next to the 10. is opto being really considered?? shunya

Thread title: Questions on Contents of 1998 Calendar (760695)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:08:05 1997, by Julio Perez

Subject: Questions on Contents of 1998 Calendar
Message Number: 760695
Posted by: Julio Perez
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:08:05 1997

In Reply to: [7]98 calender??? posted by Lou from Middletown on December 12, 1997 at 13:05:39: I read this thread on the 1998 Subway Calendar, and presume y'all are referring to the one available via http://www.netstuff.com. I attempted to ask the following questions--among others--to their staff about three weeks ago, and am still awaiting a reply. Hopefully, someone here can answer them for me: 1. Does the 1998 subway calendar contain any photos of trains along the Flushing (#7) line? 2. Does it contain any photos of R-32, R-33, R-36, and/or R-40 equipment? I know it has R-9s (or close relatives) on the cover, presumably photographed from the Smith-9 Streets approach. If you were NOT discussing Netstuff's calendar, please tell me if the one you were discussing contains any of the information mentioned above, and how can I obtain it. Thanks to all of you in advance!

Thread title: Third Rail Electrical Properties (760696)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:08:07 1997, by Julio Perez

Subject: Third Rail Electrical Properties
Message Number: 760696
Posted by: Julio Perez
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:08:07 1997

I know the NYC subway, among many other mass transit systems worldwide, uses a third rail to transmit electricity to its cars. But, do the other two rails carry any electricity and/or radio signals? I understand the NYC subway uses 600 VDC. The third rail should carry one pole (positive or negative). How is the other pole carried? How about ground connections, if any?
- Subject: Re: Third Rail Electrical Properties
- Message Number: 760710
- Posted by: Gary Jacobi
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:08:33 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Third Rail Electrical Properties posted by Julio Perez on December 15, 1997 at 08:26:20: DC traction can operate with an "earth ground", but this can lead to corrosion and other problems with other metal in the area, such as sewer and water lines. Consequently, one of the rails is used for ground. The other is used for the signal detection system. With modern multiplexing and related technology, this does not prevent additional uses of the rails for communication purposes.
  - Subject: Re: Third Rail Electrical Properties
  - Message Number: 760749
  - Posted by: Nathan
  - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:09:40 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Third Rail Electrical Properties posted by Julio Perez on December 15, 1997 at 08:26:20: In London there is a central rail to complete the circuit- it is raised on insulators in the center of the track. I do believe this is the only system to use this type of 3rd and 4th rail, the Glasgow Underground might possibly do this as well but I forget. I do know of some systems that use a thrid and fourth rail for AC propulsion, saves putting a rectifier on the train itself.
    - Subject: Re: Third Rail Electrical Properties
    - Message Number: 760789
    - Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
    - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:10:58 1997
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: Third Rail Electrical Properties posted by Gary Jacobi on December 15, 1997 at 11:55:10: By using impedance bonds (essentially transformers) between sections both AC signal current and DC ground return can be carried on the same rail. Whan a car on the section shorts the two rails, an AC voltage is generated accross the impedance bonds at either end of the section, and is used to trip the signal relays. DC signalling (one rail DC ground, the other rail signals) is unreliable where sand may be used, since the ground return can follow the signal circuit with devastating results. Gerry
      - Subject: Re: Third Rail Electrical Properties
      - Message Number: 760847
      - Posted by: Mellow One
      - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:12:40 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Third Rail Electrical Properties posted by Julio Perez on December 15, 1997 at 08:26:20: Read Middleton's Time of the Trolley or When the Steam Railroads Electrified for some good info on AC and DC early railway traction developments. Modern Signalling uses carrier waves and other exotic technologies. However, I do not believe that a ground level (third rail) power distribution system was ever implemented due to the very high transmission voltage.

Thread title: Re: New Penn Sta.(Was NJT overcrowding...) (760699)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:08:13 1997, by Lou from Middletown

Subject: Re: New Penn Sta.(Was NJT overcrowding...)
Message Number: 760699
Posted by: Lou from Middletown
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:08:13 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: NJ Transit overcrowding:the Secaucus conn. posted by ~airplane on December 13, 1997 at 22:08:08: Yes, the plans are still "on the drawing board". It seems everybody likes the idea except the PostOffice(oops Postal SERVICE).Even though they only use like a quarter of the facility anymore.Its the usual bureaucratic turf situation....
- Subject: Re: New Penn Sta.(Was NJT overcrowding...)
- Message Number: 760955
- Posted by: Andrew Huie
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:16:14 1997
  
  In Reply to: [8]Re: New Penn Sta.(Was NJT overcrowding...) posted by Lou from Middletown on December 15, 1997 at 09:19:13: That's odd - I though the post office was giving up the facility - that's why the Penn Station idea started in the first place. Change of mind?

Thread title: Re: SUBWAYS IN GENERAL, FOLKS (NIMBY) (760700)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:08:16 1997, by NIMBY

Subject: Re: SUBWAYS IN GENERAL, FOLKS (NIMBY)
Message Number: 760700
Posted by: NIMBY
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:08:16 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: SUBWAYS IN GENERAL, FOLKS posted by David Pirmann on December 12, 1997 at 16:40:09: That's right, the last thing we need in some damn subway running through this little Island! But seriously, the wishes of homeowners must be respected, this is still a democracy. I know its heresy on this site to say this, but subway service does not make a neighborhood better in all cases.
- Subject: Re: SUBWAYS IN GENERAL, FOLKS (NIMBY)
- Message Number: 760773
- Posted by: NIMBY #2
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:10:29 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Re: SUBWAYS IN GENERAL, FOLKS (NIMBY) posted by NIMBY on SI on December 15, 1997 at 09:19:39: Keep the subway out of statne island, we have enough problems with just two buses that go to brooklyn for $1.50 and now we will have more invaders.

Thread title: Transit Economics (760706)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:08:26 1997, by Charles Fiori

Subject: Transit Economics
Message Number: 760706
Posted by: Charles Fiori
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:08:26 1997

The new fare plan as outlined by Gov. Pataki is the subject of a column in this week's Barron's.(Gene Epstein's column-Economic Scene) Barron's is avail. on-line for a nominal subscription, but there also is a 2-week trial you can try. Well worth it! $49/yr for both Barron's and the Wall Street Journal. www.wsj.com

Thread title: Electricity (760711)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:08:35 1997, by Timothy Speer

Subject: Electricity
Message Number: 760711
Posted by: Timothy Speer
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:08:35 1997

Does anyone know what voltage is used on any of the electrically powered lines (including LRV, commuter lines, subway, etc...) in NYC, Philadelphia, or Boston? All I know for sure is that NYC Subways use 600V DC. Also, will the new NYC cars utilize regenerative braking? Or will they dissipate the energy as heat as is done on current rolling stock?

Thread title: Re: Electricity (SEPTA's vehicles) (760715)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:08:42 1997, by Michael S. Buglak

Subject: Re: Electricity (SEPTA's vehicles)
Message Number: 760715
Posted by: Michael S. Buglak
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:08:42 1997

In Reply to: [7]Electricity posted by Timothy Speer on December 15, 1997 at 12:01:34: All of the SEPTA subway-elevated lines, LRVs (Both city & ex-Red Arrow lines) & trackless trolleys in the Philadelphia area use 600v DC power. I can't recall offhand what voltage SEPTA's commuter rail uses, but it would be same as what Amtrak uses on the NE Corridor as SEPTA operates over considerable Amtrak trackage..Michael S. Buglak, Collegeville, PA
- Subject: Re: Electricity (SEPTA's vehicles)
- Message Number: 760719
- Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:08:49 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Re: Electricity (SEPTA's vehicles) posted by Michael S. Buglak on December 15, 1997 at 12:49:49: Hmmm... rumour has it that Septa is 11k 25hz But the equipment should be able to run at 60hz As should NJT's stuff. But I think the NEC is all 25 below Penn in NY. If it is, anyone else want to looby Amtrak for a GG-1 75th aniveresery (sp?) fantrip???
  - Subject: Re: Electricity (SEPTA's vehicles)
  - Message Number: 760721
  - Posted by: David Pirmann
  - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:08:52 1997
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Electricity (SEPTA's vehicles) posted by Philip Nasadowski on December 15, 1997 at 13:36:16: Having never in my memory seen an operating GG-1, I'd *love* to see NJT's GG-1 (4877, kept at Hoboken Yard) moving again, with the Mountain View and the other PRR car that is kept at the Whippany RR Museum in NJ, but I was under the impression that a lot of the engine had been stripped due to environmental concerns. I'd guess the other surviving GG-1's would be in the same case. Are there any still in running condition? -Dave
    - Subject: Re: Electricity (SEPTA's vehicles)
    - Message Number: 760729
    - Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
    - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:09:06 1997
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: Electricity (SEPTA's vehicles) posted by David Pirmann on December 15, 1997 at 13:53:17: The "environmental concern" was the fact they had PCBs in their transformers. Yeah, PCBs are dangerous, but the fact is they are still found in transformers all over the place. As a matter of fact, there are a few on my campus. Metro North refilled their M-2s a few years back (AFIK). I'm sure you could do the same with a GG-1, as I understand it's quite a common practice anyway (anyone know better???). For what it's worth, I've heard that the AEM-7, or was it the E-60, uses something toxic in there too. Most GG-1s were sent to museums, etc drained anyway. I'd be more worried about if they were refilled or cleaned, and with what. Besides, I think there were a few that were restored to oreigional condition in the 70's, and these should still be in working shape. Actually, all of them out there should still be in working shape, but would most likely need a lot of TLC and the above transformers checked. I'm thinking of writting NJT / Amtrak, or Emailling them about this. I think it would be cool, and I'm sure the cash could be raised or granted or whatever...
      - Subject: Re: Electricity (SEPTA's vehicles)
      - Message Number: 760881
      - Posted by: Bill Johnston
      - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:13:51 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Electricity (SEPTA's vehicles) posted by David Pirmann on December 15, 1997 at 13:53:17: I remember one evening rush hour in the late 70's at Philadelphia's Suburban Station a small crowd was amazed to see a GG-1 hooked up to the head end of a string of Budd MU's. (This was before Septa took over from Conrail.) The engine was so long that a supervisor had to call back the end of platform signal to the mid-engine cab. The bell wasn't working so it gave a couple of short toots from its air-horn which just about blew us off the platform. I couldn't believe that big behomoth would negotiate the maze of turnouts leading up the ramp out of the station towards the Schuykill River, but it did. That was the last time I saw a GG-1, but I'll never forget it! Bill
        
        Subject: Re: Electricity (SEPTA's vehicles)
        Message Number: 760900
        Posted by: Bobw
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:14:25 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Electricity (SEPTA's vehicles) posted by Bill Johnston on December 18, 1997 at 14:18:59: This happened quite often, especially during PTC strikes when extra trains would be run on the PRR/PC suburban lines. Trains of P-70's would be pulled by GG's from Suburban Station to whichever line. Also, during the '64-'65 World's Fair, many trains originated at Suburban with across-the-platform transfer at Penn Station for a joint PRR/LIRR run from Center City Phila to the Fair. I recall doing this when I was 7 years old. These trains were pulled by GG's. That was my first (and only) ride on an LI bilevel. I also recall the trip back, when the old LI cars were delayed and we had to run through Penn Station to make the PRR connection, which for some reason wasn't across the platform.
        
        Subject: Re: Electricity (SEPTA's vehicles)
        Message Number: 760918
        Posted by: Andre Byler
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:14:59 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Electricity (SEPTA's vehicles) posted by David Pirmann on December 15, 1997 at 13:53:17: Number 4935 sits awaiting the call of duty at the Strasburg, PA's Pennsylvania Railroad Museum, with most of her inards intact. All she needs is a new transformer to replace the PCB contaminated one which was removed (or maybe just drained). In any case, this has been proposed before. Those interested should lobby the Friends of the Pennsylvania Railroad Museum. 4935 sure would look great rounding those curves on the Main Line on her way up the great broad-way to New York City! Andy Byler

Thread title: Bus service on Staten Island. (760716)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:08:44 1997, by Charles Fiori

Subject: Bus service on Staten Island.
Message Number: 760716
Posted by: Charles Fiori
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:08:44 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Ideas on how to improve NYCT bus service on Staten Island. posted by si2000 on December 15, 1997 at 08:56:06: When did the lines on Staten Island get re-numbered? I remember the S7, S2, etc. and have in my collection a sample of the Red/blue front sign with those lines.

Thread title: Questions on Contents of 1998 Calendar (Repost) (760718)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:08:47 1997, by Julio Perez

Subject: Questions on Contents of 1998 Calendar (Repost)
Message Number: 760718
Posted by: Julio Perez
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:08:47 1997

NOTE: The following is a message reposted from the thread originally titled "98 calender??". I have reposted it here for fear it may not be answered because it might be presumed as an old message. I read the above mentioned thread on the 1998 Subway Calendar, and presume y'all are referring to the one available via http://www.netstuff.com. I attempted to ask the following questions--among others--to their staff about three weeks ago, and am still awaiting a reply. Hopefully, someone here can answer them for me: 1. Does the 1998 subway calendar contain any photos of trains along the Flushing (#7) line? 2. Does it contain any photos of R-32, R-33, R-36, and/or R-40 equipment? I know it has R-9s (or close relatives) on the cover, presumably photographed from the Smith-9 Streets approach. If you were NOT discussing Netstuff's calendar, please tell me if the one you were discussing contains any of the information mentioned above, and how can I obtain it. Thanks to all of you in advance!
- Subject: Re: Questions on Contents of 1998 Calendar (Repost)
- Message Number: 760761
- Posted by: Nick
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:10:07 1997
  
  In Reply to: [8]Questions on Contents of 1998 Calendar (Repost) posted by Julio Perez on December 15, 1997 at 13:16:13: I'd say go to the store and see if you can look at the calendar itself, since nobody seems to be able to answer your posts the way you want them answered.-NICK
  - Subject: Re: Questions on Contents of 1998 Calendar (Repost)
  - Message Number: 760763
  - Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
  - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:10:11 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Questions on Contents of 1998 Calendar (Repost) posted by Julio Perez on December 15, 1997 at 13:16:13: The Calendar has: R1, R-11,R-46, IRT 155-167 st Shuttle, R-29, B-type, Q-type,R-10 (repainted), R-22, Lo-V, R-32, B-type, R-110A, R-46, R-7, R-9, R-110B I think it's nice to have even if it doesn't have exactly those cars that you prefer. The address on the calendar, for those who want it, is: Newkirk Images P.O. Box 237 Copiague, N.Y. 11726-0237
    - Subject: Re: Questions on Contents of 1998 Calendar (Repost)
    - Message Number: 760786
    - Posted by: Julio Perez
    - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:10:52 1997
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: Questions on Contents of 1998 Calendar (Repost) posted by Nick on December 16, 1997 at 09:51:53: I wholeheartedly agree with your idea, Nick. Only one problem: I live 1,400 miles away in suburban Miami, and was not planning to go to the city on vacation this year.
      - Subject: Re: Questions on Contents of 1998 Calendar (Repost)
      - Message Number: 760805
      - Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
      - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:11:25 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Questions on Contents of 1998 Calendar (Repost) posted by Julio Perez on December 15, 1997 at 13:16:13: No #7 Flushing Line trains this year.
        
        Subject: Re: Questions on Contents of 1998 Calendar (Repost)
        Message Number: 760812
        Posted by: Nick
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:11:37 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Questions on Contents of 1998 Calendar (Repost) posted by Julio Perez on December 16, 1997 at 16:31:30: Well at least you were able to find out about the #7 trains not being in it. If I buy the calendar, I'll let you know what it is like.-NICK

Thread title: East River Crossings study (pt3) (760726)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:09:01 1997, by EricB

Subject: East River Crossings study (pt3)
Message Number: 760726
Posted by: EricB
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:09:01 1997

In Reply to: [7]Re: East River Crossings study (pt2) posted by Eric B on December 14, 1997 at 17:13:16: Cont'd from Yesterday With the Q in Rutgers, the additional bridge capacity is given to the N, even in partial closures. In fact, in MBA5-N and MBA8-N, the N runs over the AB tracks to 168th St, even while the B still does. Meanwhile, a W runs from Astoria to Whitehall. MBA5 included a "Revise D/Q/N"plan for before the Rutgers and 63rd St connections opened,that sends the N to 21st St, and the Q to Astoria via tunnel. Also, the D would become express and the Q local in Brooklyn, but none of the final plans included the restoration of D-Brighton exp. TSM-S and MBA8-S have the V terminating at 34th St. Since the D does also, there is no place for any uptown B service, and nothing apparently runs to 168th. (the plans do not show any B/C switch.) The M is moved around. In MBA2-N, TSM-N&S, and MBA8-N&S, it still goes to Bay Pkwy. In MBA2-S&O, TSM-O, MBA5-S,and MBA8-0,it goes to 95th St. And in MBA5-N&O, it is returned to the Brighton--local to CI, and the D is still local. BTW: MBA-5 is the option that was finally selected by the study. I was hoping the Rutgers connection would be used to bring some 8th Av service to the southern div. One thing they could have done, is send the V to WTC or Euclid, and the C to the Brighton. Or, how about routing the N to 168th up 8th Av! So if the plan is approved, we will see this connection sometime in the future.
- Subject: Re: East River Crossings study (pt3)
- Message Number: 760733
- Posted by: Chritopher Rivera
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:09:13 1997
  
  In Reply to: [8]East River Crossings study (pt3) posted by EricB on December 15, 1997 at 15:01:01: I cant understand this could you make this easy to read Christopher Rivera

Thread title: Receive My E-Mail? (To David Pirmann) (760730)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:09:08 1997, by Timothy

Subject: Receive My E-Mail? (To David Pirmann)
Message Number: 760730
Posted by: Timothy
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:09:08 1997

Did you receive the e-mail I sent you about a week ago, concerning your photo of the Polo Grounds Shuttle 155th St. Station? You haven't sent me a reply, yet. If you didn't receive my e-mail, I'll try to resend it. Hope to hear from you. Thanks, Timothy
- Subject: Re: Receive My E-Mail? (To David Pirmann)
- Message Number: 760732
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:09:12 1997
  
  In Reply to: [8]Receive My E-Mail? (To David Pirmann) posted by Timothy on December 15, 1997 at 17:39:52: Yup, I got it but you'd be better off posting it here-- where you can get answers from a much wider range of minds... -Dave

Thread title: Light rail to JFK (760735)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:09:16 1997, by Gary Jacobi

Subject: Light rail to JFK
Message Number: 760735
Posted by: Gary Jacobi
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:09:16 1997

I just received a copy of the July issue of LRT News, which is published by the Transportation Research Board of the National Research Council. It's feature article is on the JFK proposal. I am a lousy typist, so I will try to get it scanned tomorrow. In the interim, the main points are; No human operator, service every four minutes from Howard Beach and from Parsons-Archer, providing 2 min headways at the terminal loop, and (here's the bombshell) compatability with LIRR cars! As we Subway geeks know, this insures compatibility with regular NYC subway cars as well! Perhaps Governor Pataki doesn't know this. Let's keep it our little secret.
- Subject: Re: Light rail to JFK
- Message Number: 760736
- Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:09:18 1997
  
  In Reply to: [8]Light rail to JFK posted by Gary Jacobi on December 15, 1997 at 19:44:00: Here's another good one: Poke your head into the cab of a M-1 some day. See the controller??? It's labeled (clocwise from Emerg) Emergency Max Brake (range) Min Brake Coast P1 P2 P3 P4 ATC Guess what ATC does...

Thread title: Abandoned Station(Bowtow) (760737)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:09:20 1997, by John

Subject: Abandoned Station(Bowtow)
Message Number: 760737
Posted by: John
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:09:20 1997

Does anyone know who to get to the abandoned Bowtow station in the Bronx? I think it's open to the public and is located near Baychester Ave. On the LIRR before Jamaica, there is what seems to be a abandoned nearly demolished station. This is on the side tracks, heading towards Jamaica. Anyone seen this station or know what this station is called?
- Subject: Re: Abandoned Station(Bowtow)
- Message Number: 760744
- Posted by: Chuck
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:09:31 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Abandoned Station(Bowtow) posted by John on December 15, 1997 at 21:36:11: The LIRR station was Union Hall Street. I think it closed in the mid-70's and was usually served by trains from the Hempstead branch.
  - Subject: Re: Abandoned Station(Bowtow)
  - Message Number: 760756
  - Posted by: Peter Rosa
  - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:09:53 1997
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Abandoned Station(Bowtow) posted by Chuck on December 16, 1997 at 00:01:41: There are two other abandoned stations in Queens east of Jamaica, Hillside and Bell-Aire. There's very little left of each, much less than at Union Hall, so you have to look pretty hard. Hillside is just west of the current Hillside Facility platform (as far as I know, it was a regular station, not employees-only like the current one. Bell-Aire is roughly equidistant between Hollis and Queens Village.
    - Subject: Re: Abandoned Station(Bowtow)
    - Message Number: 760765
    - Posted by: Peter Rosa
    - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:10:16 1997
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: Abandoned Station(Bowtow) posted by Peter Rosa on December 16, 1997 at 09:19:37: I just remembered, there is another abandoned LIRR station east of Jamaica, Springfield Gardens. This station is on the Babylon line, unlike the other ones. About all that remains of Springfield Gardens is a rusted sign reading "8 M-1," which told the engineers where to stop the trains. (Actually, it might be "6 M-1," I can't remember for sure). The only other indication that a station ever existed is an empty space between the tracks, evidently once occupied by an island platform. Query: Why was the LIRR so diligent about eradicating all traces of Springfield Gardens (and to a slightly lesser extent Hillside and Bell-Aire), when it left Union Hall semi-intact?
      - Subject: Re: Abandoned Station(Bowtow)
      - Message Number: 760823
      - Posted by: Mellow One
      - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:11:57 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Abandoned Station(Bowtow) posted by John on December 15, 1997 at 21:36:11: I know of a Barstow. Never heard of Bowtow.

Thread title: Re: Will NYC or Chicago Ever Get High Speed? (760738)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:09:21 1997, by Ed Sachs

Subject: Re: Will NYC or Chicago Ever Get High Speed?
Message Number: 760738
Posted by: Ed Sachs
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:09:21 1997

In Reply to: [8]Will NYC or Chicago Ever Get High Speed? posted by BJ on December 15, 1997 at 21:02:21: Chicago Metra commuter trains already go as fast as 70mph in some stretches. That's the speed of the Metra train which unfortunately hit a school bus in Fox River Grove about 2 years ago, which led to a call by the town to lower the trains speed, even though train speed was not a factor in the tragedy in which seven high school students were killed.
- Subject: Re: Will NYC or Chicago Ever Get High Speed?
- Message Number: 760750
- Posted by: Nathan
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:09:42 1997
  
  In Reply to: [8]Will NYC or Chicago Ever Get High Speed? posted by BJ on December 15, 1997 at 21:02:21: Elevated running at high speeds is safe- any potential problems would lie in large imperfections of the rail itself. My little pet system (sorry, stress the word little-one liner system) operates trains at 70mph on it's elevated structure and there has only been one derailment, and the train didn;t fall off the elevated structure. (The trains are computer controlled and the computers aren,t as speed chicken as some of the operators are. OF course, on NYC there might be more accidents as we are comparing a system with 20+ miles of line to one with a gizillion. (NYC)
  - Subject: Re: Will NYC or Chicago Ever Get High Speed?
  - Message Number: 760757
  - Posted by: LifeSaver
  - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:09:54 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: Will NYC or Chicago Ever Get High Speed? posted by Ed Sachs on December 15, 1997 at 22:21:23: I am sorry the train did not hit the bus, the BUS hit the train. The bus should not have been where it was. The bus driver killed those kids, the train was just the weapon used.
    - Subject: Re: Will NYC or Chicago Ever Get High Speed?
    - Message Number: 760759
    - Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
    - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:09:58 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Will NYC or Chicago Ever Get High Speed? posted by BJ on December 15, 1997 at 21:02:21: BART is basically a very frequent commuter train with a cross-city (SF) urban section. For that matter, so is Washington's Metro, where I live. I like living 17 miles from the White House and knowing I have a train go into the city every 12 minutes, 6 during Rush hours. Scarsdale should be so lucky... New York, Chicago, Toronto, Philadelphia, etc. have stations that are almost always about 1/2 mile apart, and the tracks and curves were built for slower speeds. The systems with stations more than 1 mile apart can have high speeds in those section. The DC Metro does not go 70 mph between Metro Center (11th-13th St.) and Gallery Place (7th-9th St.), but it sure does between Forest Glen and Wheaton, a distance of 2 miles.
      - Subject: Re: Will NYC or Chicago Ever Get High Speed?
      - Message Number: 760784
      - Posted by: Alan Follett
      - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:10:49 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Will NYC or Chicago Ever Get High Speed? posted by Ed Sachs on December 15, 1997 at 22:21:23: I'd second LifeSaver's prior followup to this post--it was the driver's carelessness, not unreasonable train speed, that caused the Metra/school bus accident a couple of years back. Sure, grade crossing accidents could probably be reduced by lower speeds, or, as far as that goes, eliminated altogether if train speeds were limited to 3 MPH; but in most cases I believe the social benefits of faster transit outweigh the dangers of crossing accidents. The points at which the grade crossing problem can more productively be addressed are, first, driver education; second, more law enforcement attention to drivers who seem oblivious to the dangers of crossings; and, third, putting available highway and transit funding to use in eliminating grade crossings. Obviously there just isn't enough money out there to do this everywhere, but a whatever funds are available should be prioritized to address those crossings with the highest traffic and/or highest danger. This is the sort of thing that is now being done in several grade-separation projects on the Caltrain Peninsula suburban line, for example. In any event, Metra is somewhat off-topic from the original question, which concerned New York and Chicago subways. The Metra train involved was a diesel-hauled push-pull commuter train far out in the northwest suburbs, not a CTA rapid transit train. CTA station intervals currently average about a mile, with longer spacings on some of the newer lines such as the Blue Line west of Jefferson Park. Thus, there are few opportunities for truly high speeds. However, where these opportunities exist--for example, on the Yellow Line (Skokie Swift), and on the Purple Line (Evanston) Express service on the outer tracks between Howard and Wilson, trains clip along at a fairly respectable speed which I would estimate to be in the 60 MPH range.
        
        Subject: Re: Will NYC or Chicago Ever Get High Speed?
        Message Number: 760793
        Posted by: Joe M
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:11:04 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Will NYC or Chicago Ever Get High Speed? posted by Alan Follett on December 16, 1997 at 16:11:07: Skokie swift is running a top speed at about 55 mph with an average speed of 35 mph nonstop end to end for the 5 mile link. At one time they ran a top speed of 70 mph with an average speed of 46, but the time diff for the short route and only one stop was insignificant About 2 minutes. 6.5 min verses 8.5 min At Howeard street you have to connect ot the red line trains running at 5 to 8 minute headways or the Purple line.
        
        Subject: Re: Will NYC or Chicago Ever Get High Speed?
        Message Number: 760811
        Posted by: Charles Fiori
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:11:35 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Will NYC or Chicago Ever Get High Speed? posted by Joe M on December 16, 1997 at 23:45:05: Riding on the upper level one Sunday afternoon going into Chicago, along Metra's UP-North line, the engineer told me that he will go as fast as 75mph south of Rogers Park (or was it south of Ravenswood). When I take the 5:07pm express home, it goes non-stop from Chicago to Wilmette, and once the train gets past Clybourn, it really does accelerate, as most of the running is on tangent, level track. As I have no opportunity to chat with the engineer or that ride, I don't know exactly how fast it goes.
        
        Subject: Re: Will NYC or Chicago Ever Get High Speed?
        Message Number: 760814
        Posted by: Joe-M
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:11:40 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Will NYC or Chicago Ever Get High Speed? posted by Charles Fiori on December 17, 1997 at 12:29:50: I think the north line is signaled for 78 or 79 mph operation. The 5:07 is the one with the private dining car on it isn't it. That train set is parked here at night and is allways parked up on the elevation because it is to long to go down below into the coach yards.
        
        Subject: Re: Will NYC or Chicago Ever Get High Speed?
        Message Number: 760833
        Posted by: Charles Fiori
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:12:13 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Will NYC or Chicago Ever Get High Speed? posted by Joe-M on December 17, 1997 at 13:43:34: Yes, the private car is always at the head end. Even before the new handicapped accessible cab cars started, that train had all stainless steel equipment. Wonder why? BTW, are you up in Kenosha? Seeing the shiny new cab cars with the old dingy Pullit-Stranded equipment is somewhat reminiscent of when R32s showed up and they were mixed in with 27s.
        
        Subject: Re: Will NYC or Chicago Ever Get High Speed?
        Message Number: 760848
        Posted by: GAR
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:12:42 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Will NYC or Chicago Ever Get High Speed? posted by Charles Fiori on December 17, 1997 at 17:46:47: F.Y.I. Riding the Evanston Express I was able to see the speedometer pegged at 55 mph south of Howard. There comes a point on the speed/cost curve where incremental speed increases require LOTS of money. In addition the CTA would have to make major operational changes -- which might not fit rider needs.
        
        Subject: Re: Will NYC or Chicago Ever Get High Speed?
        Message Number: 760856
        Posted by: Joe M
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:13:00 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Will NYC or Chicago Ever Get High Speed? posted by Charles Fiori on December 17, 1997 at 17:46:47: In Kenosha -- at the end of the line, for now at least.
        
        Subject: Re: Will NYC or Chicago Ever Get High Speed?
        Message Number: 760857
        Posted by: Joe M
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:13:03 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Will NYC or Chicago Ever Get High Speed? posted by GAR on December 17, 1997 at 22:07:26: A friend of mine at CTA says two things drive track maintenance up rappidly, Train Speed and car weight. At least CTA cars are relativly light
        
        Subject: Re: Will NYC or Chicago Ever Get High Speed?
        Message Number: 760916
        Posted by: Andrew Byler
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:14:55 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Will NYC or Chicago Ever Get High Speed? posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 16, 1997 at 09:48:51: Actually, as I never tire of pointing out, Philadelphia's Broad Street subway is built for 70 mph speeds on the express tracks. The distance between stops is similar to the Metro suburban distances you mention - Olney to Erie, ~ 2 miles, Erie to Girard ~ 2.5 miles, Girard to Spring Garden, ~ 1 mile. New York has quite a few stretches which should be upgraded to similar operating conditions: 1) The 2, 3 from 96th St. to Chambers St. 2) The 4, 5 from 149th St. in the Bronx to Brooklyn Bridge 3) The A from 168th St. to 14th St. 4) The D from Fordham Rd. in the Bronx to West 4th Washington Sq. 5) The Broadway express tracks when they are returned to service 6) The E from Jamaica Van Wyck in Queens to 5th Ave. 7) The B from Grand St. to 9th Ave. 8) The N from 36th St. to 59th St. (i.e. further down 4th Ave.) 9) The A from Hoyt-Schermerhorn to Euclid Ave. 10) The A from Rockaway Blvd. to Beach 80th/Beach 67th. 11) The 4 from Bowling Green to Utica Ave. 12) The Q from Atlantic Ave. to Sheepshead Bay 13) The Dyre Ave. line 14) The rest of the river tunnels In otherwords, there are no shortage of possible stretches. The question is whether or not high speed operation is economically feasible. On some lines with long stretches of possible high speed line, such as the 4, 5, A, D, E, F, and Q this is probably a good economis move - faster trains means fewer trains needed. The B and N, 2, and 3 are questionable, because the express stretch is not long compared to the whole line. Andy Byler
        
        Subject: Will NYC or Chicago Ever Get High Speed?
        Message Number: 761740
        Posted by: BJ
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:08:30 1998
        
        Will Nyc or Chicago ever get the high speed subways like BART? There are some express routes where the trains could reach 70 or 80 and stay at that speed for a few minutes. Most of the subway portions have stations to close, but on elevateds or ground level some stations are spaced far apart. Is it safe to travel Elevated at such a high speed level? Will Nyc or Chicago ever invest in this technology, maybe after the turn of the century? And also maybe computer controlled trains? ( That acually run on time!) Thanks BJ

Thread title: Does anyone knows when "F" express service in Brooklyn will ever be (760739)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:09:23 1997, by .

Subject: Does anyone knows when "F" express service in Brooklyn will ever be
Message Number: 760739
Posted by: .
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:09:23 1997
- Subject: Re: Does anyone knows when "F" express service in Brooklyn will ever be
- Message Number: 760758
- Posted by: .
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:09:56 1997
  - Subject: Re: Does anyone knows when "F" express service in Brooklyn will ever be
  - Message Number: 760844
  - Posted by: .
  - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:12:34 1997
    - Subject: Re: Does anyone knows when "F" express service in Brooklyn will ever be
    - Message Number: 760870
    - Posted by: .
    - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:13:29 1997

Thread title: TransitAds/Track Maps request... (760741)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:09:27 1997, by Michael Adler

Subject: TransitAds/Track Maps request...
Message Number: 760741
Posted by: Michael Adler
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:09:27 1997

Hi all, After everything settle down at the USPS (X-mas mail volume and family get together in Colorado) I will try to set an hour or 2 on Sundays to update TransitAds (free ads relating to mass-transit stuff) [8]TransitAds I know I'm really behind in updating track maps like Baltimore LRT extensions, etc... I will gather up what you guys sent track maps to me and I will update them and make any new track maps (Hint: sent me *more* track maps ) If you have track maps (doesn't matter if it's old or current as I do historial and current track maps here on Dave's site) please e-mail me thru m-adler@nycsubway.org or m-adler@ix.netcom.com either way, please make sure you put in Transit-related SUBJECT as I delete *TOO MUCH* junk e-mail!!! Thanks, Michael Adler Letter Carrier serving Wheat Ridge & Mountain View, Colo.

Thread title: Sacramento LRT (was Re: Seattle Metro plans... what?) (760748)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:09:38 1997, by Nathan

Subject: Sacramento LRT (was Re: Seattle Metro plans... what?)
Message Number: 760748
Posted by: Nathan
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:09:38 1997

In Reply to: [8]Re: Seattle Metro plans... what? posted by Gary Jacobi on December 15, 1997 at 13:38:10: Is the time penalty for LRT so severe?? On Sacramento's LRT, is taking the Light Rail faster than driving? That is the way it should be, I hope. What is the daily Ridership on the Sacramento system??
- Subject: Re: Sacramento LRT (was Re: Seattle Metro plans... what?)
- Message Number: 760790
- Posted by: Gary Jacobi
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:10:59 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Sacramento LRT (was Re: Seattle Metro plans... what?) posted by Nathan on December 16, 1997 at 01:47:04: Yes it is. Express bus used to take under 30 min to downtown. But busses now take you to light rail, and the total trip is over 40 min. The trip by carpool is 20 min. Last year Light Rail carried 28,000 daily riders, most of whom had little choice as busses no longer run to downtown from neighborhoods beyond light rail.

Thread title: Subways In Pop/Rock Music (760751)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:09:44 1997, by Timothy

Subject: Subways In Pop/Rock Music
Message Number: 760751
Posted by: Timothy
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:09:44 1997

Can anyone post a list of pop, and rock and roll songs (including heavy metal), that are about, or that mention subways in the title or lyrics? Thanks.
- Subject: Re: Subways In Pop/Rock Music
- Message Number: 760752
- Posted by: Timothy Speer
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:09:46 1997
  
  In Reply to: [8]Subways In Pop/Rock Music posted by Timothy on December 16, 1997 at 03:09:59: I don't have time right now to make a list,but I do remember a song called "Subway to Your Heart" from about 10 - 12 years ago. The video for this song featured the singer pretending to drive an "A" train of R-44's out on Rockaway somewhere.
  - Subject: Re: Subways In Pop/Rock Music
  - Message Number: 760754
  - Posted by: G-wiz
  - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:09:49 1997
    
    In Reply to: [8]Subways In Pop/Rock Music posted by Timothy on December 16, 1997 at 03:09:59: Here's part of a Beastie Boys tune from their album 'Pauls Boutique', Its part of the last track on that album called 'Mike on the Mic '. Here are the lyrics - It's 4:00 a.m. I've got the Dr. Hfuhruhurr Ale I've got nothing to lose so I'm pissin' on the third rail. Groggy eyed and fried I'm headed for the station, D-Train ride Coney Island vacation Dedicated to the boofers in the back of the 1 train They'll be kicking out windows high on cocaine Jump the turnstyle I lost my last token Riding between the cars pissing smoking Also finger popping Two bums fucking I seen them rocking Head for the last car fluorescent light blackout Policeman told my homeboy put that crack out You know you light up when the lights go down Read the New York Post Fulton St. downtown Same faces every day but you don't know their names Party people going places on the D-Train. French trench coat wing tip going to work Pulling a train like Captain Kirk Pick pocket gangsters paying their debts Caught a bullet in the lung from Bernie Goetz Overworked and underpaid staring at the floor Prostitutes spandex caught in the ding dong doors Stuck between the stations it seems like an eternity Sweating like sardines in a flophouse fraternity $50.00 fine for disturbing the peace The neck tortoise, the Lees creased. Hot cup of coffee and the donuts are Dunkin Friday night and Jamaica Queens funkin Elevated platform never gonna conform Riding over the diner where I always get my toast warm Bust into the conductor's booth and busted out rhymes Over the loud speaker about the hard times Sat across from a man readin El Diario Riding the train down from El Barrio Went from the station straight to Orange Julius Bought a hot dog from my man George Drakoulias
    - Subject: Re: Subways In Pop/Rock Music
    - Message Number: 760755
    - Posted by: Charles Fiori
    - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:09:51 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Subways In Pop/Rock Music posted by Timothy on December 16, 1997 at 03:09:59: So I laid my head on the railroad track, waitin' on the double-E. But that train don't run by here no more, poor, poor pitiful me. -Linda Ronstadt I actually remember a DJ in NY saying (this would've been back in 1977 or so) "Yea, it doesn't run by here no more because it's been replaced by the N train!"
      - Subject: Re: Subways In Pop/Rock Music
      - Message Number: 760760
      - Posted by: Nick
      - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:10:01 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Subways In Pop/Rock Music posted by Timothy Speer on December 16, 1997 at 06:10:12: I don't remember any other songs that had subways mentioned in them. However, Michael Jackson's "Bad" video in '88 was shot in a subway station (actually it was a Hollywood set). The Rolling Stones newest video has subway clips in it as well.-NICK
        
        Subject: Re: Subways In Pop/Rock Music
        Message Number: 760782
        Posted by: Adam
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:10:44 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Subways In Pop/Rock Music posted by Timothy on December 16, 1997 at 03:09:59: Subways in music.... Well, how about that song that goes something like "Working on the Chain Gang" Then there was this song I think by Rod Stewart called "Downtown Train" a few years ago. Also, there was this song called something like "On the Playground" that had a video filmed in the subway. It was by a group consisting of little kids, they were a one hit wonder. And finally, on the cover of one of McSerch's singles it says on the cover "Far Rockaway 1992" there's a picture of McSerch running under the el there. It is the single for the song "Here it Comes" Sorry if these are sketchy details but it's all I can come up with at the moment.
        
        Subject: Re: Subways In Pop/Rock Music
        Message Number: 760799
        Posted by: Lou from Middletown
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:11:14 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Subways In Pop/Rock Music posted by Nick on December 16, 1997 at 09:49:18: The Stones have in their closet a GREAT song called "Do you think(IReally Care)?" [its also known as Yellow Cab] in which Jagger sings about trying to find a certain girl all over NYC. One of the lyrics is "Saw her on thew subway/saw her on the D train...." Unfortunately, its only available on bootleg, so good luck trying to find it!!!
        
        Subject: Re: Subways In Pop/Rock Music
        Message Number: 760841
        Posted by: Eric B
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:12:28 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Subways In Pop/Rock Music posted by Timothy on December 16, 1997 at 03:09:59: Simon & Garfunkel's popular "Sound of Silence": "The words of a prophet are written on a subway wall..." Rapper Doug E Fresh's 1985 hit "the Show" , Slick Rick says "stepped on the D train at 205th...", and then Salt& Pepper, in therir debut single "Showstoppers", a sort of dissing response to "The Show" refers to Rick's line, and then Doug E Fresh's producers released their own spoof of the rap hit "No Show", where one of the rappers says "he stepped on the E train at 179..." The R&B act "D train" (James Williams). Rapper Dana Dane's late 80's hit "Delancey St" (he even imitates an F train conductor saying "step lively", and the door chimes!) KRS one said in one of his raps that he "sometimes finds himself on the #2 train".
        
        Subject: Re: Subways In Pop/Rock Music
        Message Number: 760855
        Posted by: Bobw
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:12:57 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Subways In Pop/Rock Music posted by Charles Fiori on December 16, 1997 at 08:25:41: Was that the EE that Linda Ronstadt was singing about? I had always heard the song that way but I also assumed that the reference was to something else. That would explain it, since that was about the time the EE stopped running...
        
        Subject: Re: Subways In Pop/Rock Music
        Message Number: 760864
        Posted by: Charles Fiori
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:13:18 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Subways In Pop/Rock Music posted by Bobw on December 17, 1997 at 22:57:24: Who knows? I doubt Ms. Ronstadt was a subway fan, but it's a cute story.

Thread title: Re: Bus service on Staten Island. Renumberd (760766)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:10:17 1997, by Lou from Brooklyn

Subject: Re: Bus service on Staten Island. Renumberd
Message Number: 760766
Posted by: Lou from Brooklyn
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:10:17 1997

In Reply to: [7]Bus service on Staten Island. posted by Charles Fiori on December 15, 1997 at 12:58:38: They were renumbered back when I was just out of high school, mid to late 80's. 70's were north/south, 50's east/west, 60's victory blvd from what I remember. The S59 old S4 no longer goes to Tottenville outside of rush/school hours and ends at Hylan Blvd/Rich Ave.

Thread title: Re: Free Ride Fare Beating = Handcuffs (760771)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:10:26 1997, by Lou from Brooklyn

Subject: Re: Free Ride Fare Beating = Handcuffs
Message Number: 760771
Posted by: Lou from Brooklyn
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:10:26 1997

In Reply to: [7]Re: Free Ride posted by Joe M on December 14, 1997 at 23:28:21: If you jump the turnstile and a police officer catches you, you will be handcuffed, sat down and a ticket written. Forget the dollar amount of the fine and just enjoy the handcuffs like any other criminal.

Thread title: Re: Subways In Pop/Rock Music (My Findings, So Far) (760776)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:10:34 1997, by Timothy

Subject: Re: Subways In Pop/Rock Music (My Findings, So Far)
Message Number: 760776
Posted by: Timothy
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:10:34 1997

In Reply to: [8]Re: Subways In Pop/Rock Music posted by Nick on December 16, 1997 at 09:49:18: In the 1960's, Petula Clark did a song called "Don't sleep in the subway", in the mid 1970's, rock group Blue Oyster Cult did 2 songs, one was called "Morning Final", from the album "Agents of fortune", which also includes sound effects of a subway train pulling into a station at the end of the song. The other one is "Godzilla". In the 1980's, rock (heavy metal) group Ratt did a song called "You're in love", from the album "Invasion of your privacy", which opens with the line "You take the midnight subway train". I know that Van Halen did a song on one of their earlier albums, that mentions "subway", but I'm not sure which one it was. I just want to know how many other songs there are that mention subways in their lyrics.
- Subject: Re: Subways In Pop/Rock Music (My Findings, So Far)
- Message Number: 760854
- Posted by: Bobw
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:12:55 1997
  
  In Reply to: [8]Re: Subways In Pop/Rock Music (My Findings, So Far) posted by Timothy on December 16, 1997 at 12:54:10: Don't ask me who wrote or sung it, but "you can't get to heaven on the Frankford El, 'cause the Frankford El only goes to Frankford"... Very popular in the early 60's. At least here in Phila.

Thread title: Polo Grounds Shuttle Photos (760777)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:10:36 1997, by Timothy

Subject: Polo Grounds Shuttle Photos
Message Number: 760777
Posted by: Timothy
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:10:36 1997

I have a question concerning one of the Polo Grounds Shuttle photos in the Abandoned Elevateds section of Historical Perspectives. On the photo of the Polo Grounds Shuttle that is labeled "Polo2jpg", which was taken at 155th Street and 8th Ave., although not visible in the photo, Where would the still existing 155th Street stairways be, approximately? The photo shows an aerial end view of the el structure, but I couldn't see the stairways that lead from the station to the street. Apparently, they are probably hidden by the el structure. Also, would anyone by any chance have photos of the Polo Grounds Shuttle stations and el structure taken from street level, that would show the stairways leading up to the stations, or any photos that show the ornate features on the Polo Grounds Shuttle, as well as the 9th Ave. El, such as the ornamental iron railings on the stairways, etc.? If so, Could you post them in SubTalk, or e-mail them to me? Thank you very much.

Thread title: Re: B & C trains are switching terminals (Now, trains that I like) (760778)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:10:38 1997, by sdc-foti

Subject: Re: B & C trains are switching terminals (Now, trains that I like)
Message Number: 760778
Posted by: sdc-foti
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:10:38 1997

In Reply to: [7]Re: B & C trains are switching terminals north of 145th St in the Spring 1998. posted by Christopher Rivera on December 13, 1997 at 16:02:40: I like the R10, 36=33, 32 AND 38, 29,28, AND 26 ANY CAR THAT DOES NOT HAVE A VINTAGE OF AT LEAST 30+ YEARS I DON'T CARE MUCH FOR. OH AND OF COURSE THE 27'S AND 30'S Foti

Thread title: Bus service on Staten Island Renumberd (760780)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:10:41 1997, by Hank Eisenstein

Subject: Bus service on Staten Island Renumberd
Message Number: 760780
Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:10:41 1997

In Reply to: [8]Re: Bus service on Staten Island. Renumberd posted by Lou from Brooklyn on December 16, 1997 at 11:30:23: They were renumbered in late 80's, in several sections.... The victory Blvd buses (s6, 6s, 111,106,112) became the s60 series (s66,60,61/91,67,62/92, rpt) The 111 was technically discontinued, but it was replaced by the 61 on the northern section of its route. Only the 6 ran full-time to the ferry, off hours, the 106/111 ran as a combined route, from the Port Richmond 106 terminal to the Newdorp 111 terminal. this became the 57, now a full time, though not 24hour, service. 67 runs rush only, peak direction. 60 is the Grymes Hill Shuttle. The buses serving the North Shore(s1,101,102,3,108) became the s40 series (s40,42,44/94,46/96,48/98) South Shore buses (from the ferry to the south shore) got the 70 series. s103,109,113,117 bcame s78 (tottenville branch of 103) 79(mall branch of 103, since rerouted from Ferry to Brooklyn) 72 (since eliminated) 74, and 76. Cross-island buses, which went from the north to the south, were 115, 106/111(combined route), 7, 104, 2, 4, 110. They became the 55/56 (loop route, now goes to the mall as separate lines, but operated together) 57, 53,52,51,59, and 54. The 52/51 were resrtuctured when the 72 was eliminated, and the 54 was extended to richmond/hylan, when the 59 was cut to tottenville only. I could get more extensive when I'm not sick... -Hank
- Subject: Re: Bus service on Staten Island Renumberd
- Message Number: 760798
- Posted by: Charles Fiori
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:11:12 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Bus service on Staten Island Renumberd posted by Hank Eisenstein on December 16, 1997 at 14:14:47: Ah, progress! I also remembered that somewhere in my collection I have an example of a front route curtain from an "old-look" Staten island bus." The renumbering in Manhattan made some sense, but the geography of S.I. doesn't seem to lend itself as well to such a scheme. Remember when in Manhattan there were 2 #15s (1st/2d Avs & Queens) and 2 #6s (6 Av & what became the M30). Now that was confusing! Would still like to find some of those old destination signs!!! Feel better, Hank, and thanks for your detailed response.

Thread title: JFK light rail ...more info (760788)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:10:56 1997, by Gary Jacobi

Subject: JFK light rail ...more info
Message Number: 760788
Posted by: Gary Jacobi
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:10:56 1997

The newsletter, being green print on tan paper, turns out to be unscannable. So here is the main portion. The Port Authority of NY and NJ, which operates JFK, plans to construct an automated driverless 8.4 mile light rail system that will include a circulator serving the airports nine air terminals, and two legs serving the remote parking areas, rental car facilities, and two nearby transportation hubs at Howard Beach and Jamaica. At Howard Beach, LRS riders can access the NYCT's A subway line, which makes stops in Queens and Brooklyn and travels the entire length of Manhattan. At Jamaica, the LRS station will be situated in a multi-modal facility where there is a connection to more than 1,000 subway and Long Island RR commuter rail trains every weekday. From there LRS riders can reach destinations such as Penn Station in Manhattan,Queens, Brooklyn, and most of Long Island. The $1.5 billion project is expected to take 4 to 5 years to construct. The system will be steel wheel on steel rail and have a third rail current collection to MATCH THE EXISTING TRANSPORTATION NETWORK. (My Caps) It will have dimensions similar to NYCT's Division B subway cars, although the system must also be able to accomodate a wider LIRR compatible car. The system will be driverless; the cars will operate and stop at stations and the vehicle doors will be opened and closed without an operator. ( Are you listening Mike Quill? A ZOMBIE train!) All stations will be equipped with platform doors to prohibit the intrusion of any materials or individuals onto the tracks, and to allow for heating and air-conditioning of the platform and station areas. ( A horizontal Elevator!)
- Subject: Re: JFK light rail ...more info
- Message Number: 760796
- Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:11:09 1997
  
  In Reply to: [8]JFK light rail ...more info posted by Gary Jacobi on December 16, 1997 at 18:34:04: Hmm.. the PA may actually have done something right??? Ok, it is a GENIUS move ensureing compatibility with current LIRR (and therefore IND/BMT) equipment. My guess is that any new trackage/substations will be stressed for M-1s too (hopefully). This would allow an EASY direct link to Penn. If the trackage is able to take M-2s, then it also allows New Haven line acess, by way of the Hell's Gate bridge (now THAT would be fun!). Which would also let Metro North attack Penn from both sides :) (their current MilePost newsletter says they'll be comming from Jersey there in 2000). Hmm...drop in 12k catenary, and you've got Slamtrak acess to the airports too... Now - these driverless train things - bad move. I don't think people trust computers that much. Oh yeah, that also means a direct connection to LIRR/subway would be hard on account of lack of trackside signals. But I'm sure they could be grafted on easily. I think the doors at platforms is going to be a disaster too. It also limits what equipment can be used at the stations (hmm...do I smell something??) Well, at least the compatibility with LIRR stuff is a good idea. I also think they should look into Metro North/LIRR acess to the airport, and maybe subway too.
  - Subject: Re: JFK light rail ...more info
  - Message Number: 760803
  - Posted by: John B. Bredin
  - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:11:22 1997
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: JFK light rail ...more info posted by Philip Nasadowski on December 17, 1997 at 02:29:47: I think that the automated light rail to JFK is a bad idea, but not because of the automation. At O'Hare in Chicago, people ride "these driverless train things" all the time between the terminals and the remote parking lots, and very few people complain about the lack of a driver. No, the problem is that a separate airport rail system that links with the LIRR or subway requires passengers with luggage to lug it (pun intended) between the light rail and the main line into the city. They should skip the light rail and extend either the LIRR or the subway (preferably the subway) all the way to the airport.
    - Subject: Re: JFK light rail ...more info
    - Message Number: 760804
    - Posted by: Charles Fiori
    - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:11:24 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: JFK light rail ...more info posted by Philip Nasadowski on December 17, 1997 at 02:29:47: Except for the steel wheels, it sounds something like the system at O'Hare. Rubber wheels out here, and no drivers. Can't understand why they need signals, except if they want to allow for motorperson operation under certain circumstances. Stations on ORD people mover are enclosed, with doors only opening whent trains arrive. So does this basically use the abandoned ROW of the Woodhaven Branch?
      - Subject: Re: JFK light rail ...more info
      - Message Number: 760809
      - Posted by: Walter
      - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:11:32 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: JFK light rail ...more info posted by Philip Nasadowski on December 17, 1997 at 02:29:47: That all great, except that at a recent ERA meeting, a Port Authority spokesman said the elevated structure for the Light Rail to JFK Airport would not be strong enough to carry NYCTA or LIRR cars. The light Airport cars could continue to Manhattan or elsewhere (presumably with a motorman) over subway or LIRR tracks, but subway or LIRR trains could not travel over the Port Authority airport access routes from Jamaica or Howard Beach to JFK. In the airport the grades and curves would also not allow subway or LIRR-car use.
        
        Subject: Re: JFK light rail ...more info
        Message Number: 760826
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:12:02 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: JFK light rail ...more info posted by John B. Bredin on December 17, 1997 at 09:59:25: As discussed in earlier postings, the source of funding for this connection (Airport User Fees) is not permitted to be used to extend existing transit systems, which the Congress, in their wisdom, considers to be a diversion of user funds.
        
        Subject: Re: JFK light rail ...more info
        Message Number: 760885
        Posted by: Danny
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:13:58 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: JFK light rail ...more info posted by Charles Fiori on December 17, 1997 at 09:59:30: If that's the case, then major renovation must take place at the Howard Beach station... Using the old ROW of the Rockaway Branch is not a bad idea, but it seems like it would take forever to reach Jamaica (isn't the shortest way between two points is a straight line?) Mental note: If this LR uses the Rockaway ROW, and switches to the tracks at Glendale, what happens to the service between LIC and Jamaica via Fresh Pond?
        
        Subject: Re: JFK light rail ...more info
        Message Number: 760892
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:14:10 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: JFK light rail ...more info posted by Danny on December 18, 1997 at 16:05:08: The article I quoted shows the line splitting at Federal circle, one going to Howard Beach, the other via Van Wyck Expw'y median to Archer Ave.
        
        Subject: Re: JFK light rail ...more info
        Message Number: 760968
        Posted by: Danny
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:16:38 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: JFK light rail ...more info posted by Gary Jacobi on December 18, 1997 at 17:35:27: Something dowsn't seem right about that... Why bother building an elevated line... unless they make it so that the train doesn't make noise... P.S. -- I am not a Queens native... Could you tell me where Federal Circle is located...
        
        Subject: Re: JFK light rail ...more info
        Message Number: 761064
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:19:37 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: JFK light rail ...more info posted by Danny on December 20, 1997 at 15:07:16: Federal Circle is within the JFK property. It used to be, and may still be a signed exit from the Van Wyk expressway. FAA and other administrative offices are located there, and it would attract lots of commuters who now drive, park and work there. This appears to be the major use of all existing airport-transit service, as opposed to Airline passenger use which is light at best.
        
        Subject: Re: JFK light rail ...more info
        Message Number: 761066
        Posted by: John B. Bredin
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:19:42 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: JFK light rail ...more info posted by Gary Jacobi on December 22, 1997 at 15:55:28: I have heard this "few passengers take the train to the airport" thing a few times so far in this thread. I beg to disagree. I live in Chicago, not far from the Blue Line to O'Hare, and on the weekend, the line is thick with out-of-towners, identified by the "Michael Jordan's Restuarant" and other tourist-trap bags they are carrying along with their luggage, and by their loud comments on "sights" along the line. To be fair, many of the vacationers are coming into and out of the city for the day from their hotels by the airport, and get off at Rosemont (where most of the hotels are) as much as at O'Hare Station. But it still shows that the airport rail line serves not only to bring the employees of the airport, airlines, hotels, and warehouses to their jobs but to bring the travelers themselves into the city by train and not by car or taxi.
        
        Subject: Re: JFK light rail ...more info
        Message Number: 761177
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:03:47 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: JFK light rail ...more info posted by John B. Bredin on December 22, 1997 at 17:56:28: If your observations are correct about the Blue line, I'll change my opinion, because I based it mostly on my own Blue line observations ten years ago.I didn't see any luggage being carried, which I felt was a sure sign of no airline passengers using the trains. Perhaps it was too new then.

Thread title: LIRR Controller (760791)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:11:01 1997, by John

Subject: LIRR Controller
Message Number: 760791
Posted by: John
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:11:01 1997

What does the ATC setting on the LIRR trains do?
- Subject: Re: LIRR Controller
- Message Number: 760794
- Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:11:06 1997
  
  In Reply to: [8]LIRR Controller posted by John on December 16, 1997 at 21:05:08: Of course, the answer is (drumroll, please) NOTHING!!!!! But seriously, it WAS supposed to provide for more or less totally automatic control of speed, etc. I believe much like the Bart. This, of course, never happened on the LIRR, and I don't know if the m-3s have it or not. Heck, I'm not sure if the m-1a 's have it. Actually, I was told by an engineer that the actual equipment doesn't exist, just the controller notch. My guess is that it was left for expansion?? Note that this isn't the ASC on the LIRR, which is just a wimpy cab signal system. Bear in mind too that the M-1s were DESIGNED for a > 100 mph top speed. I tend to think that the LIRR had much bigger plans for the M-1s than what actually was implemented..

Thread title: Unusual Amtrak coach (760797)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:11:11 1997, by Timothy Speer

Subject: Unusual Amtrak coach
Message Number: 760797
Posted by: Timothy Speer
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:11:11 1997

I saw an interesting Amtrak coach this morning on track 9 in South Station in Boston -- it had curtains in the windows, and had an open vestibule carved out at the end of the car. I think I saw the words "Beech Grove" on the side. Does anyone know what this coach is used for?
- Subject: Re: Unusual Amtrak coach
- Message Number: 760850
- Posted by: GAR
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:12:46 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Unusual Amtrak coach posted by Timothy Speer on December 17, 1997 at 08:35:28: Beech Grove is the name of the Amtrak shops in Indiana....Its an executive car.

Thread title: Braking (760800)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:11:16 1997, by Timothy Speer

Subject: Braking
Message Number: 760800
Posted by: Timothy Speer
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:11:16 1997

I understand the concept of resistance braking, but is anyone willing to explain how regenerative systems work? Where are they used? Will the new NYC cars have them?
- Subject: Re: Braking
- Message Number: 760832
- Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:12:12 1997
  
  In Reply to: [8]Braking posted by Timothy Speer on December 17, 1997 at 09:26:55: If you understand resistive systems, then regenerative is easy. With resistence, the generated power is dissipated in a resistor grid, generating a load of heat. In regenerative, the power generated is returned to the source, in this case the third rail. -Hank
  - Subject: Re: Braking
  - Message Number: 760835
  - Posted by: Timothy Speer
  - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:12:17 1997
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Braking posted by Hank Eisenstein on December 17, 1997 at 17:28:36: Okay, then why haven't electrically powered trains been using regenerative braking all along?
    - Subject: Re: Braking
    - Message Number: 760836
    - Posted by: Steve
    - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:12:19 1997
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: Braking posted by Timothy Speer on December 17, 1997 at 18:33:33: The technology is not as simple as you might think. The regeneration causes interference with signals and communication. The TA has experimented with it in the past. In fact, I heard that at one time a pair of R-32s were fitted with flywheels to capture energy created during braking and then used it to help during accelleration.
      - Subject: Re: Braking
      - Message Number: 760837
      - Posted by: Timothy Speer
      - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:12:20 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Braking posted by Steve on December 17, 1997 at 18:47:18: I've heard of the flywheels on the R-32's. Does anyone know if the newer Red Line cars in Boston (Bombardier series 01800-01885) use regenerative braking? Will the new NYC cars use it?
        
        Subject: Re: Braking
        Message Number: 760840
        Posted by: David Pirmann
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:12:26 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Braking posted by Steve on December 17, 1997 at 18:47:18: Yes, at least 2 R32's had flywheels installed (3700 and 3701). It was done at some shop in California. Steve Hoskins was lucky enough to spot them out there. [9][LINK]R32 3700 in San Bernardino California.
        
        Subject: Re: Braking
        Message Number: 760859
        Posted by: Joe M
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:13:07 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Braking posted by Timothy Speer on December 17, 1997 at 18:59:51: Dynamic braking does create the heat used to warm the cars so they do not need to use resitance heating and saves operating costs. One of the best uses of regenrative braking will come on the hybrid buses like the ones Nyc is testing.
        
        Subject: Re: Braking
        Message Number: 760862
        Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:13:13 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Braking posted by Joe M on December 17, 1997 at 23:52:47: No, they do not provide heat for the cars. Heat for the stations, maybe, but not the cars. There are large grids under the car that are just large metal coils. The energy is fed into them, and the resistence generates enough heat to fry a rat. -Hank
        
        Subject: Re: Braking
        Message Number: 760863
        Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:13:15 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Braking posted by Hank Eisenstein on December 18, 1997 at 03:37:13: Dynamic (a/k/a resistive, resistance, etc) braking simply dissipates the current generated by the motors as heat, through those coils under the train (or above it if it's AC equipment). Those coils also are the resistances used for controlling the motor. So they serve a dual purpose. You COULD dump the heat into the cars, but that's impractical, since you still need a set of resistances under (or above) the train for summer opperation. There a a number of ways of regulating dynamic brakes, one of which is removing the power to the motor / controller, and shorting the input. I think this is how it normally works, as opposed to seperate notches, cams, etc on the controller under the train. Bare in mind that there are a LOT of variations on series parrallel controllers. NY subways from R-1 on were either GE PC, Westinghouse "Unit Switch", or a later version of the two. BTW, I beileve (and can't spell ;) that both of those are pnumatic systems. Modern ones aren't though.... Regen is somewhat more recent, especially in AC equipment. Regen doesn't throw off as much heat, because the bulk of the power goes out through the rail/catenary. Obviously, some electricity is lost as heat. Oh yeah, it's also physically impossible for the system to recover 100% of the energy used to start the train rolling...
        
        Subject: Re: Braking
        Message Number: 760865
        Posted by: Timothy Speer
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:13:20 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Braking posted by Philip Nasadowski on December 18, 1997 at 04:18:29: Okay -- this makes me wonder a couple of things: 1. Can regerative braking work with "old" 600V DC like NYC runs? 2. Do any modern subways use AC? 3. Do AC systems need two conductors? 4. Still looking for an answer to whether the newer Red Line cars in Boston (Bombardier series 01800-01885) use regenerative braking...
        
        Subject: Re: Braking
        Message Number: 760882
        Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:13:53 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Braking posted by Timothy Speer on December 18, 1997 at 08:04:56: 1) It sure can work with 600V DC. Actually, it should be easier to do it with DC than AC, as you don't have to worry about phase differences. 2) To my knowlage, no. Any system that is third rail is ALWAYS DC. Some Subway / transit systems use catenary, and switch between it and third rail, but it's just 600V DC too. Except for Metro North's New Haven line. It's 750 DC third rail, and about 17K ac overhead. I think it's the only system in the country that's AC-DC... 3) No. Proper grounding of the rails/signal systems makes them safe to use as return conductors. The whole NEC is AC, between 11k 25hz AC and 17k 60Hz AC, I don't think Bamtrak runs 25k yet. 4) I don't know, it depends on the controller. If it's a GE camshaft (I think they are), then it doesn't. If it's some sort of solid state job, thenm they might.
        
        Subject: Re: Braking
        Message Number: 760893
        Posted by: a.pardi
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:14:12 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Braking posted by Steve on December 17, 1997 at 18:47:18: Currently there is an 8 car consist of r-38 cars testing ac traction motors with regenerating brake system on the "c" line. I guess the system is testing a prototype of what the future order of subway cars will be equiped with. I remember having to lay up these cars from 168 st terminal this summer to 207 st yard. As usual the motors had a high pitch when when operating and the braking was pretty optimal for me smooth and concise..
        
        Subject: Re: Braking
        Message Number: 760895
        Posted by: a. pardi
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:14:15 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Braking posted by Joe M on December 17, 1997 at 23:52:47: the dynamic braking in use now does not heat the car interior however the heat generated by the grids is emited into the tunnels along with heat expelled from friction braking plus a/c condensors under cars creating sweltering conditions in the summer time. I remember aroun 12 years ago pulling into timesquare on the number 2 a number 1 train of r 21/22 or r15 cars one car was being hosed dwon by the fire dept the cars was completely gutted..
        
        Subject: Re: Braking
        Message Number: 760897
        Posted by: A.pardi
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:14:19 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Braking posted by Philip Nasadowski on December 18, 1997 at 15:04:53: the dynamic braking grids under the subway cars serve two purpose for braking to dissipate energy created from braking as heat. during acceleration the switching position maximum resistors with all four traction motors in series (not a running position) series position(running position) resistors cut out (can't remember if any resistors involved sorry!) and parallel no resistors and motors in parallel position maximum speed
        
        Subject: Re: Braking
        Message Number: 760906
        Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:14:36 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Braking posted by A.pardi on December 18, 1997 at 18:04:49: It's not that simple. Even though there are 3 notches on the controller, there are, in reality, a lot more than that (more like 10 or so). The intermediate notches are obtained by the magic of the camshaft controller under the car (if you saw Metro North's open house, you probbly saw the demo of it...). Placeing the controller in parrallel causes the camshaft to go through the notches, stopping at full parrallel. The reason it goes notch by notch is to limit the current the motors draw. It starts st a low notch, and advances every tim,e the current drops to a certain point. This is why the T/O can put the train in Full Parrallel, and the substations don't blow up. The Series notch simply prevents the controller from going past Full Series. Switching keeps the thing in the first notch. The camshaft device under the car does all the work, leaving the T/O to simply "tell" the system which notch to stop acellerating at. The reason why the system was developed was probbably to prevent overloads, and also because notches with resistances aren't really intended as "running positions". In other words, they can't take a long amount of high current, or they'll overheat. Also, the controller doesn't actuallly switch in and out resistances. Instead, it has an intial resistance, to which it simply parrallels more (equal in value to the inital and each other) resistances in. This has the effect of dropping the resistance. The "Full" positions simply short the resistance out. This allows for smooth acelleration, without cutting out the power at any point. Anyone else have anything to add????
        
        Subject: Re: Braking
        Message Number: 760922
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:15:19 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Braking posted by Philip Nasadowski on December 18, 1997 at 21:25:45: On GE Propulsion, the SCM-1 Cam Controller has 30 positions. It's been a long time since I worked on a GE controller but if memory serves me correctly, During accelleration the controller starts in position 20-switching, series has 9 step from 21 to 29 and multiple is (was) 29 back to 20 with the P1 and P2 contactors picked up. Dynamic braking is similar from 16 to 1 and back with the B switch picked up. (highly simplified)
        
        Subject: Re: Braking
        Message Number: 760924
        Posted by: Philip nasadowski
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:15:22 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Braking posted by Steve on December 19, 1997 at 00:32:44: Ahhhh..... Do you know If GE has any docs on these things??? This sounds like a pretty slick controller :) Oh yeah, do you know what controller the LIRR stuff uses (I know it's GE, I'm guessing it's an SCM?). Also, they stopped useing Westinghouse Unit Switch after R- 21/22, right???
        
        Subject: Re: Braking
        Message Number: 760953
        Posted by: Joe M
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:16:11 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Braking posted by Philip nasadowski on December 19, 1997 at 01:38:04: In some cars after they are in direct paralell the controler shunts the field circuts to reduce the force of the field. This lowers the torque of the motors but allows them to run faster for high speed operation. Field shunting is also used in the dynamic braking but I an not quite sure how that works yet
        
        Subject: Re: Braking
        Message Number: 760973
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:16:48 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Braking posted by Philip nasadowski on December 19, 1997 at 01:38:04: The SCM-1 controller (which sold for around $50K each) is very well documented although the documentation is quite involved. Check the GE website and perhaps you can get some simplified stuff. One interesting note: In 1991 or 1992, I met he gentleman who designed the SCM controller. He was celebrating his 50th year with GE and suprisingly, at 70++ years old he got under an R-46 to have his picture taken with his creation. As for the LIRR, they use the SCM-4 controller which, unlike the SCM-1, has two cam controllers, one propulsion and one braking, in the box. As for Westinghouse, roughly 1600 NYCT cars use Westinghouse propulsion. After the redbirds are gone, the R-62A, R-68 and R-68A will have westinghouse propulsion. Even that won't last long. In 1999 and 2000 they will be replaced with Westinghouse E-Cams, a micro-processor based controller which is now used on R-44s...
        
        Subject: Re: Braking
        Message Number: 760975
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:16:53 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Braking posted by a.pardi on December 18, 1997 at 17:44:05: Those cars are numbered 4040 through 4049 including spares. They come out of Concourse yard Tuesday through Friday AM...

Thread title: To one and all.... (760801)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:11:17 1997, by Lou from Middletown

Subject: To one and all....
Message Number: 760801
Posted by: Lou from Middletown
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:11:17 1997

Before things get too hectic this next week, I would like to wish everyone who posts on this site, and especially to Mr.Pirrman, the happiest of Holiday seasons, and a Happy New Year! May all your signals in life be green over green,and all your controllers be in series!!
- Subject: Re: To one and all....
- Message Number: 760808
- Posted by: Chris C.
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:11:30 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]To one and all.... posted by Lou from Middletown on December 17, 1997 at 09:30:42: Thank you and happy hollidays! A little cheer goes a long way over hostility. This board has needed some. Have a good one.
  - Subject: Re: To one and all....
  - Message Number: 760839
  - Posted by: Steve
  - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:12:24 1997
    
    In Reply to: [8]To one and all.... posted by Lou from Middletown on December 17, 1997 at 09:30:42: I'd like to add my unofficial TA greetings to all on this site, and especially Dave, who has created this wonderful forum. One thing though, may you always find your controllers in Parallel (not series), green lights as far as you can see and may you never be going 50 MPH and see headlights coming towards you on the same track
    - Subject: Re: To one and all....
    - Message Number: 760860
    - Posted by: charlie muller
    - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:13:09 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: To one and all.... posted by Chris C. on December 17, 1997 at 10:16:12: may all your lights be green and all your tracks be properly set and no trip arms to stop you short. also may you all be able to get a train without a full width cab and see out of the head car , as we travel the rails into the new year. charlie muller.

Thread title: WWW.NYCSUBWAY.ORG Newsletter (760817)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:11:45 1997, by David Pirmann - Web Site Host

Subject: WWW.NYCSUBWAY.ORG Newsletter
Message Number: 760817
Posted by: David Pirmann - Web Site Host
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:11:45 1997

WWW.NYCSUBWAY.ORG NEWS Hi all. I thought I would post a little newsletter describing what's going on behind the scenes here at www.nycsubway.org. Call for Volunteers You may have noticed that the announcement of new pages has dwindled recently. This is due to lack of access to good source materials and time to work on new sections. I've put together a list of [8]Volunteering Ideas that might give you some impetus to contribute! All volunteers are welcome. New Stuff That being said, there have been some updates recently. * [9]Transit Maps: Some new maps added * [10]BAHN Subway Simulator: Some new layouts added * [11]Transfer Station: All sections overhauled with some new links and removal of dead ones Coming soon: * A new page of photos from my recent trip to Paris, France, and Brussels, Belgium * A new page of photos from the demolition of the Culver Shuttle contributed by Jeff Saltzman. The major project in the works is the upgrading of the web server to a Sparcstation 2 running Solaris 2.6, with a nice new fat 4 Gigabyte drive. This will allow us to expand even further as you [12]volunteers contribute stuff! :-) Server Stats I thought it would be interesting to compare the server statistics from November 1996 to those from November 1997. 1997 1996 _Pages Served_ 138,027 59,368 _Images Served_ 522,500 137,969 The server is busier than ever, pumping out on average 2 Gigabytes of pages and images each week. This is even with our intermittant network problems! Announcements... I figured I'd through these in here in case people aren't aware. * Our [13]Track Maps, provided by Peter Dougherty, are now available as a spiral-bound book, perfect for carrying with you on subway expeditions. Contact Peter at [14]brakeman@nycsubway.org for details. * I am working on a CD-ROM of images from Brooklyn and Third Avenue (Bronx-Westchester) trolleys. If you'd be interested in purchasing one for approx. $20, it would help fund web site development and offset my hardware costs. * Our Internet connection is graciously donated by [15]NetK2NE Internet. We thank them for their patience and ongoing support. Well, that's it for this first "issue". Any feedback is of course welcome, via [16]SubTalk, or the [17]Feedback Form. --Dave
- Subject: Re: WWW.NYCSUBWAY.ORG Newsletter
- Message Number: 760858
- Posted by: Joe-M
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:13:05 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]WWW.NYCSUBWAY.ORG Newsletter posted by David Pirmann - Web Site Host on December 17, 1997 at 14:58:59: Keep up the great work. Will try to send things as I find them but not many NYC artifacts here in the Midwest. Happy Holidays to all.

Thread title: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet (760818)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:11:47 1997, by Michael S. Buglak

Subject: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet
Message Number: 760818
Posted by: Michael S. Buglak
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:11:47 1997

At the present time, does NYC Transit have any other make of bus in regular revenue service (as opposed to work service, historical, etc.) other than: 1) GMC/TMC/NovaBus RTS, 2)Orion V, or 3)New Flyer Articulated? If so, what depots and/or routes are they assigned to? Also, does any operator in the NYC Metro area have either Neoplan or Ikarus (North American Bus Industries) transits? (I know that neither NYCT nor NJ Transit do.) As always, any info much appreciated...Michael S. Buglak, Collegeville, PA
- Subject: Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet
- Message Number: 760819
- Posted by: Wayne Johnson
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:11:49 1997
  
  In Reply to: [8]NYC Transit's Bus Fleet posted by Michael S. Buglak on December 17, 1997 at 15:13:43: You've just named all of the type of buses in the NYCT fleet - Actually this is the biggest variety of buses in many years. I was afraid that the fleet would eventually be all RTS - We were very close until 1993 when the Orions started arriving. The NYCTA has tested both 40' and 60'-articulated Neoplans, but never bought any. I don't think NJT has any either. I believe NYCT is due to receive some MCI coaches for express service.
  - Subject: Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet
  - Message Number: 760829
  - Posted by: Charles Fiori
  - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:12:07 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet(& Philly's SEPTA, too) posted by Michael S. Buglak on December 17, 1997 at 16:41:30: Is it correct that none of the NYC buses have curtain destination signs? Also, I think that NJT used to run Volvo artics. I seem to remember a NY Bus Society fantrip in fall 1987 which used an artic which I think was a Volvo.
    - Subject: Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet
    - Message Number: 760861
    - Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
    - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:13:10 1997
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet posted by Charles Fiori on December 17, 1997 at 17:16:57: There are no ta buses with rollsigns anymore. Last were the rebuilt GM and Flxibles from the early 70's that were finally retired in 1993. -Hank PS anyone know what happened to them?
      - Subject: Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet
      - Message Number: 760876
      - Posted by: Wayne Johnson
      - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:13:42 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet posted by Charles Fiori on December 17, 1997 at 17:16:57: NJT is still operating their Volvo Articulateds. They bought 110 of them which are pretty similar, if not identical to SEPTA's. One (#9132) is on a lease to MBTA.
        
        Subject: Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet
        Message Number: 760888
        Posted by: Bootsy
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:14:03 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet posted by Wayne Johnson on December 17, 1997 at 16:11:07: Are they going to be like the MC9s used by NJ Transit and independent Jersey-New York bus lines?
        
        Subject: Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet
        Message Number: 760889
        Posted by: Bootsy
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:14:05 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet posted by Wayne Johnson on December 18, 1997 at 12:17:37: NJT still uses them, but almost all of them are assigned to the #13 and #39.
        
        Subject: Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet
        Message Number: 760891
        Posted by: Wayne Johnson
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:14:09 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet posted by Bootsy on December 18, 1997 at 16:21:14: I'm not sure what type they'll be. My guess is that they will be the current style 102C3, w/o restrooms. I don't think the TA was ever interested in buying over the road coaches, but the competition between Staten Island and Manhattan are using them. The MC9 has gone out of production. At one point (late 80's) MCI had actually started up MC9 production again, but I don't know if the "Jersey Cruiser" style MC9's had resumed production. In 1992 MCI had also introduced the MC12 (exclusively for Greyhound) which had they combined the workhorse quality/reliability of the MC9 and later features from the 96A, 102A,C models. If you don't know - they are nearly indentical to MC9, but the front cap (at the roof) is a bit more rounded, it has square headlights and taillights.
        
        Subject: Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet
        Message Number: 760896
        Posted by: Charles Fiori
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:14:17 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet posted by Wayne Johnson on December 18, 1997 at 17:02:47: What did the TA have when they had such coaches on the Staten Island express lines some years ago? I remember hearing that each driver became personally responsible for a single bus, pride in appearance, etc.
        
        Subject: Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet
        Message Number: 760901
        Posted by: Bobw
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:14:26 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet posted by Charles Fiori on December 18, 1997 at 17:51:56: Those were leased Greyhounds and I believe were MC-8's. ?
        
        Subject: Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet
        Message Number: 760925
        Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:15:24 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet posted by Charles Fiori on December 18, 1997 at 17:51:56: Those were leased coaches from greyhound during the Grumman crisis in the early 80's, and although loved by the passengers, they were hated by maintainers. For certain repairs, they had to be sent out (terms of lease), and you were out a bus. TA wanted to keep them, but was told it was impossible to put a center exit door and chair lift on the bus, allegedly becase of the lack of a solid frame below the passenger compartment floor., due to the luggage compartments.... -Hank
        
        Subject: Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet
        Message Number: 760931
        Posted by: Wayne Johnson
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:15:34 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet posted by Bobw on December 18, 1997 at 20:39:06: Yes, they were MC-8's.
        
        Subject: Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet
        Message Number: 760933
        Posted by: Lou from Brooklyn
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:15:37 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet posted by Hank Eisenstein on December 19, 1997 at 03:51:17: The operators didn't like the manual door at the time. Too many openings and closings.
        
        Subject: Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet
        Message Number: 760969
        Posted by: Mike
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:16:39 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet posted by Wayne Johnson on December 19, 1997 at 09:45:36: There was also a MCI bus that has the electronic desination sign that was numbered 5950 that NYCT was using during the Grumman crises in the early 1980, I would like to know where this bus was borrowed from.
        
        Subject: Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet
        Message Number: 760984
        Posted by: Bootsy
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:17:11 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet posted by Mike on December 20, 1997 at 15:57:24: Most likely a Jersey Cruiser -- those are the only MCI busses with electronic signs (as far as I know).
        
        Subject: Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet
        Message Number: 761046
        Posted by: Wayne Johnson
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:19:06 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet posted by Bootsy on December 21, 1997 at 01:09:14: At that time, I would agree that it was likely that 5950 was a Jersey Cruiser. Now there are many MCI's (other than Jersaey Cruisers) with electronic signs. Peter Pan has new 102DL3's (45 feet long) with them and Westchester County's Bee=Line has late 1980's MCI 102A2's (2 axle suburban model) also with electronic signs.

Thread title: Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet(& Philly's SEPTA, too) (760821)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:11:53 1997, by Michael S. Buglak

Subject: Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet(& Philly's SEPTA, too)
Message Number: 760821
Posted by: Michael S. Buglak
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:11:53 1997

In Reply to: [8]Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet posted by Wayne Johnson on December 17, 1997 at 16:11:07: Thanks for the info, Wayne. Actually, here in the Philadelphia area it seemed like for a while that SEPTA would be an all-Neoplan fleet, until Ikarus finally broke Neoplan's strangehold in 1996. For a while between 1989 & 1996, SEPTA had 1,092 Neoplans, 298 RTSes, & 50 Volvo Artics. (Oh yes, I forgot the lone 40-foot Volvo!) I believe that SEPTA (until earlier in 1997, when the oldest Neoplans from 1982-83 were retired) operated more Neoplans than ANY property in North America. The interesting thing about SEPTA's Neoplans is that we have (at present) 5 different orders,!1984,1985,1986,1987,1989), 3 different paint schemes, 2 lengths, 3 different types of destination signs, & at least a half-dozen different interior layouts! I'm sure that NYCT has at least as many variations among its RTSes, as well!...Michael S. Buglak, Collegeville, PA
- Subject: Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet(& Philly's SEPTA, too)
- Message Number: 760831
- Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:12:10 1997
  
  In Reply to: [8]Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet(& Philly's SEPTA, too) posted by Michael S. Buglak on December 17, 1997 at 16:41:30: Well, there are RTS' from 1981 (1201-1658, 2201-2579), 1982 (1659-1858, 2580-2704), 1983(3001-3325), 1984(3400-3799), 1985 (3800-4218) 1986 (4300-4599), 1987 (4600-4899), 1990 (8000-8399), 1995 (8600-8703), 1996 (8750-9249), and 1997 (9250-9349). there are at least 4 different interior layouts, and 2 paint schemes, 4 different destination signs, although as older buses go through rebuild, they get the newest type. Also, the 81 and 82 buses are being rebuilt or sold, the rebuilds are getting numbers in the 7500 range. Then there are 3 different orders of orions, 1993 (101-317, nee 93001-93317) 1994 (400-630), 1996 (631-680) 1 sign, 3 seating arrangements. -Hank
  - Subject: Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet(& Philly's SEPTA, too)
  - Message Number: 760853
  - Posted by: Bobw
  - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:12:53 1997
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet(& Philly's SEPTA, too) posted by Michael S. Buglak on December 17, 1997 at 16:41:30: I believe you are correct that SEPTA had, at one time, more Neoplans on the property than any other transit agency. LA may have surpassed SEPTA lately. If you count 3200, which has a different sort of electronic front sign which displays two-line messages (it appears to be similar to that used on NJT's RTS's), then the Neoplans have 4 varieties of signs. The bigger ones installed on 3440-49 with separated route number and message have been modified so that the route number portion either displays nothing or a large zero. I had heard that some Neoplans were going to get the bigger signs such as the ones on the Ikaruses but I haven't seen one yet. The Volvo artics also have two different types of signs. 7048 has the larger letter display similar to the 3000-series Neoplans. NJT, to the best of my knowledge, is still operating its Volvo artics. It had two different configurations - a three-door transit and a two-door suburban. These were numbered in two different groups in the 9000 series. I do not believe any current NYCT bus was delivered with curtain signs. Also, the numbers given for the original Orions do not add up - I believe the numbers all increased by 100 when the buses were renumbered from the 93000 group. Was there some reason why the buses received such a high number? Was NYCT trying to correspond year of delivery with fleet numbers? An outfit called AGS in Camden, NJ has been amassing retired NYCT RTS's, I would assume for resale, since last spring. The yard is adjacent to US 30 (Adm. Wilson Blvd.) just west of the Airport Circle. There have not been many of these buses there since Thanksgiving.
    - Subject: Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet(& Philly's SEPTA, too)
    - Message Number: 760875
    - Posted by: Wayne Johnson
    - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:13:40 1997
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet(& Philly's SEPTA, too) posted by Hank Eisenstein on December 17, 1997 at 17:23:49: Hank, You list the first group of NYCT Orions in the 93XXX series. Actually most of them had the three digit number from day one. I'm not sure where the 93XXX numbers originally, but I know that Casey Stengel originally had them as high as 93090 and 200 series up to 232,291-297,299,300. Kingsbridge had 233-291,298,301-316. As far as I can tell the 93XXX were from 93001 to approx. 93095
      - Subject: Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet(& Philly's SEPTA, too)
      - Message Number: 760899
      - Posted by: Eric B
      - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:14:23 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet(& Philly's SEPTA, too) posted by Bobw on December 17, 1997 at 22:49:30: The TA tried to switch to 5 digit numbers to avoid reusing numbers, so that retired buses could remain on the computer. For what reason, i do not know. Fortunately, the idea was soon abandoned.

Thread title: Free Transfer (760822)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:11:55 1997, by Chris C

Subject: Free Transfer
Message Number: 760822
Posted by: Chris C
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:11:55 1997

In Reply to: [7]Re: Free Ride posted by David Pirmann on December 17, 1997 at 14:31:47: Sorry, I don't have the article handy. Perhaps it is bullshit. The more I think about it it probobly is. I have, however, seen people on this board claim that it is illegal to hand off a metrocard for a free transfer. This seems to suggest that the cops DO have a way to tie a particular rider to a particular card. I'm not sure which is right.
- Subject: Re: Free Transfer
- Message Number: 760825
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:12:00 1997
  
  In Reply to: [8]Free Transfer posted by Chris C on December 17, 1997 at 16:42:30: I think that's just a policy decision. For instance on a monthly PATH quick card it says "Non transferable". Now, there's no way to know if I gave it to my friend to use. It's one of those rules where they hope people will be honest and abide by it even if it's not technically possible to track. Just because they can't prove it via technological means doesn't mean they can't make it illegal and hope for the best.

Thread title: TRACK/TUNNEL RECONSTRUCTION (760828)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:12:05 1997, by WARREN THOMAS

Subject: TRACK/TUNNEL RECONSTRUCTION
Message Number: 760828
Posted by: WARREN THOMAS
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:12:05 1997

WHAT A TREMENDOUS JOB THEY ARE DOING ON THE QUEENS LINE BETWEEN 36TH STREET AND QUEENS PLAZA. ANYBODY KNOW EXACTLY WHAT'S GOING ON?
- Subject: Re: TRACK/TUNNEL RECONSTRUCTION
- Message Number: 760830
- Posted by: David L.
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:12:08 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]TRACK/TUNNEL RECONSTRUCTION posted by WARREN THOMAS on December 17, 1997 at 17:00:40: Please do not SCREAM! They are building a connection from the 21 st/Queensbridge station to the Queens Blvd Line.
  - Subject: Re: TRACK/TUNNEL RECONSTRUCTION
  - Message Number: 760869
  - Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
  - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:13:28 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: TRACK/TUNNEL RECONSTRUCTION posted by David L. on December 17, 1997 at 17:23:19: Opinion inspired by this topic: Isn't it kind of strange that the connection is east of Queens Plaza? We don't know if it's expresses, locals, or both that will go under Roosevelt Island. Whichever it turns out to be, that means that some people will be on trains that don't easily connect up with the others, which seems really a strange way to connect subway lines. I guess that MTA's thinking is that not too many people care whether they go on 53rd, 59th, or 63rd Sts. to get to midtown Manhattan, but it still strikes me as a strange way of doing things. It is similiar to the almost complete lack of rush hour of Brighton-to-Bway-via bridge capability when the Chrystie St. connection opened(and the absolute lack of it in the reverse direction during rush hours). Because Sea Beach Bridge trains skipped Dekalb Ave. for about 3.5 hours and QB rush hour specials only ran every 10 minutes for about 1.5 hours in the main direction mostly, there were hours when Brighton people could not get to/from Bway via Bridge without backtracking, even though they could see the Sea Beach trains pass them right by at DeKalb.(If Atlantic and Pacific had been connected tben, it wouldn't have been so bad. Now it is a moot point, unfortunately.) Anyway, this type of odd service -- that the train runs right past you but it is almost impossible to connect to that train without going miles out of your way -- seems a strange way to run a railroad.
    - Subject: Re: TRACK/TUNNEL RECONSTRUCTION
    - Message Number: 760884
    - Posted by: Danny
    - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:13:56 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: TRACK/TUNNEL RECONSTRUCTION posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 18, 1997 at 09:39:47: Same ideas! I expected the connection to come onto the E & F lines between Ely Avenue and Queens Plaza... Then I began to think: Maybe the location of the 21st Street/Queensbridge station prevents it from connecting... Can somebody correct me, but is the station located at 21st Street & 39th Avenue?
      - Subject: Re: TRACK/TUNNEL RECONSTRUCTION
      - Message Number: 760905
      - Posted by: Larry Littlefield
      - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:14:34 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: TRACK/TUNNEL RECONSTRUCTION posted by Danny on December 18, 1997 at 15:56:52: They connected to the local track east of Queens Plaza because it was the cheapest thing they could do -- in "only" cost $700 million dollars. If that is what it really costs to build subway connections today, we're dead. The Nassau Loop, considered wildly expensive at the time, was only $10 million dollars -- $100 million in today's money. I wish I knew what Christe Street cost, so I could put it in todays' dollars also. I'll be it wasn't $700 million. Can any body tell me why these connections cost so much?
        
        Subject: Re: TRACK/TUNNEL RECONSTRUCTION
        Message Number: 760917
        Posted by: Adam
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:14:57 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: TRACK/TUNNEL RECONSTRUCTION posted by Larry Littlefield on December 18, 1997 at 21:12:00: I may be able to shed at least some light on why this connection is so expensive. Not only is a subway being extended and connected to an existing subway, but this is in an area that is already fully developed so a lot of utilities are being rerouted, which I'm suspecting has greatly increased the cost. Entire sewer systems are being ripped up and rerouted along Northern Blvd. I feel that these extra things that may not normally be done when connecting subways, especially many years ago when things weren't as built up as they are now, are contributing to the increased cost.
        
        Subject: Re: TRACK/TUNNEL RECONSTRUCTION
        Message Number: 760921
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:15:17 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: TRACK/TUNNEL RECONSTRUCTION posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 18, 1997 at 09:39:47: The 63rd St. connection is being made NORTH of Queens Plaza because the idea was to reduce congestion at The Plaza. By reducing congestion there (Currently the biggest bottleneck on the Queens Blvd. corridor), Queens thru-puts could be increased. If you heard the MTA chairman today, increased E & F service is one of the goals that the $167 million surplus is going to help attain.
        
        Subject: Re: TRACK/TUNNEL RECONSTRUCTION
        Message Number: 760948
        Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:16:03 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: TRACK/TUNNEL RECONSTRUCTION posted by Steve on December 19, 1997 at 00:23:06: If they increase E and F service, maybe there really can be express/local service between Bergen St. and Church Avenue.
        
        Subject: Re: TRACK/TUNNEL RECONSTRUCTION
        Message Number: 761022
        Posted by: ZAck
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:18:21 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: TRACK/TUNNEL RECONSTRUCTION posted by Adam on December 18, 1997 at 23:53:06: Lou could you please repost your response. Subtalk liked it to the wrong post

Thread title: Put R32 & R40 on the "N" line, R68 & a few R40 on the "Q" line & all R68A (760846)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:12:38 1997, by .

Subject: Put R32 & R40 on the "N" line, R68 & a few R40 on the "Q" line & all R68A
Message Number: 760846
Posted by: .
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:12:38 1997

Thread title: UP north line (760849)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:12:44 1997, by GAR

Subject: UP north line
Message Number: 760849
Posted by: GAR
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:12:44 1997

In Reply to: [7]Re: Will NYC or Chicago Ever Get High Speed? posted by Charles Fiori on December 17, 1997 at 12:29:50: I take the 8:00 am northbound from CPT. It hauls non-stop from Clyborne to Davis St. On the other hand the return 4:00 pm from Davis is always late....it makes all stops. A conductor told me they were able to make up 15-20 minutes on the north-west line out to Crystal Lake.

Thread title: Re: Put R32 & R40 on the "N" line, R68 & a few R40 on the "Q" line & all (760851)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:12:49 1997, by .

Subject: Re: Put R32 & R40 on the "N" line, R68 & a few R40 on the "Q" line & all
Message Number: 760851
Posted by: .
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:12:49 1997
- Subject: Re: Put R32 & R40 on the "N" line, R68 & a few R40 on the "Q" line & all
- Message Number: 760868
- Posted by: .
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:13:26 1997
  - Subject: Re: Put R32 & R40 on the "N" line, R68 & a few R40 on the "Q" line & all
  - Message Number: 760954
  - Posted by: .
  - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:16:13 1997

Thread title: Transit Surplus (760866)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:13:22 1997, by Charles Fiori

Subject: Transit Surplus
Message Number: 760866
Posted by: Charles Fiori
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:13:22 1997

Today's (12/18) NY Daily News has an article highlighting service increases to accomodate increased ridership. www.mostnewyork.com As usual, the Straphangers Campaign says "Yea, but..."

Thread title: Manhattan Bridge Problems-Questions,Comments,Idea (760867)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:13:24 1997, by Mike Rothenberg

Subject: Manhattan Bridge Problems-Questions,Comments,Idea
Message Number: 760867
Posted by: Mike Rothenberg
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:13:24 1997

Recent postings discussed the Manhattan Bridge problems. A clear factual review of the subject would be useful to educate all readers. QUESTIONS-(1)What are problems, how to be repaired, when will work start & end? (2) When done, will trains use the bridge or will tracks be removed? (3) 2 south tracks have been out of use for around 10+ years. Why not repaired yet? (4)What service is planned for rush hr, other weekday, evening, weekend on SeaB,4th Av.,WestE,Britn,Brx,Wash. Hts.,Astor.&QnsBl. lines? COMMENTS-(1)Awful bridge diversions occured in the '50's,(2)Too bad replacement tun. not built then.2 extra 63St. tun.traks a $ waste.IDEA Use surplus $ to build M.B.replacement tun.
- Subject: Re: Manhattan Bridge Problems-Questions,Comments,Idea
- Message Number: 760872
- Posted by: Chris C
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:13:34 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Manhattan Bridge Problems-Questions,Comments,Idea posted by Mike Rothenberg on December 18, 1997 at 09:16:11: I was under the impression that the two extra 63st tunnel tracks were going to be used to connect the LIRR with Grand Central Station. I was also under the impression that this would be happening soon. I don't know what the deal is with the Manhattan Bridge. The Much needed pedestrian walkway has been closed too! We need this stuff up and running! A replacement tunnel is a good idea. Maybe this is an opportunity to build a multi-level tunnel with more than 1 set of tracks and to rethink service along these lines alltogether. There are a few spots north of the Manhattan bridge on the Brooklyn side that have changed dramatically since these lines were concieved. What were once industrial areas have quietly become residential and could use more service. I think that some kind of express service from Manhattan directly to the heart of Brooklyn is in order as well, say; one stop to Atlantic Avenue and Flatbush. This would speed along those with longer commutes and ease congestion on lines which service the Downtown Brooklyn area. Just some thoughts.
  - Subject: Re: Manhattan Bridge Problems-Questions,Comments,Idea
  - Message Number: 760874
  - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
  - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:13:38 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Manhattan Bridge Problems-Questions,Comments,Idea posted by Mike Rothenberg on December 18, 1997 at 09:16:11: The Manhattan Bridge is worn out! It's as simple as that. But the solution is subject to political input, which is never simple. The tracks on the MB are at the edges of the deck, which twists the structure under load. Moving the tracks to the center, and the roadways to the edge would be a long term fix, and may be what they are planning, which would somewhat justify the long schedule that I often hear quoted. This would need to be a series of staged projects if auto traffic was to be maintained. Taking trains off the bridge and building either or both the Houston st. and/or Grand st. tunnel would be ideal, but hellishly expensive.
    - Subject: Re: Manhattan Bridge Problems-Questions,Comments,Idea
    - Message Number: 760909
    - Posted by: Earth Dog
    - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:14:43 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Manhattan Bridge Problems-Questions,Comments,Idea posted by Mike Rothenberg on December 18, 1997 at 09:16:11: The time may be long at hand to start considering a tunnel replacement for the Bridge. For starters instead of building a link between De Kalb and the Rutgers tube, the following should be done. 1) Reconfigure the bway-lafayette complex by tying in the fromer bridge tracks from Grand Street into the unused connection with the link between the Williamsburg Bridge, this would allow 6th Ave Local trains to serve Grand St directly. Install a crossover north of Grand street to allow trains to use it as a terminal. This should be designed to allow the construction of the 2nd ave Subway via Grand St in the future. After this is done, the TA should build the lower half of the 2nd Ave Line between Whitehall and Grand Street allowing direct service from Lower Manhattan via 6th Ave and out via the 63rd St Line to Queens. also build a transfer connection between Grand St and the nearb
      - Subject: Re: Manhattan Bridge Problems-Questions,Comments,Idea
      - Message Number: 761038
      - Posted by: Zack
      - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:18:50 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Manhattan Bridge Problems-Questions,Comments,Idea posted by Gary Jacobi on December 18, 1997 at 12:10:19: Why not close the bride to everything and dismantle the deck reinforce the piers and rebuild the deck with new high-tech materails?? and have the trains on a new lower level on the inside and pedristian/bike lanes on the outside. the tracks could be 4 tracks with computer driven interlockings to distribute the weight evenly on each side. so the bridge isnt overtaxed.

Thread title: Williamsburg Bridge (760873)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:13:37 1997, by Timothy Speer

Subject: Williamsburg Bridge
Message Number: 760873
Posted by: Timothy Speer
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:13:37 1997

With all the concerns regarding the future of subway use of the tracks on the Manhattan Bridge, I was wondering how the Williamsburg Bridge is holding up. I know there were some major problems with the cables a few years back. What happened?
- Subject: Re: Williamsburg Bridge
- Message Number: 760878
- Posted by: Lou from Brooklyn
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:13:45 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Williamsburg Bridge posted by Timothy Speer on December 18, 1997 at 12:01:51: It is my understanding that all subway service will be halted soon for bridge repair and replaced with shuttle buses. They are currently working daily on the bridge around the train tracks. There was a month or two ago arcticles about how trains moved through the work areas without the proper precautions (flagman, etc.) and pictures showing huge iron beams coming close (inches) to the trains but this could just be newspaper hipe as well (or even just a little slant).
  - Subject: Re: Williamsburg Bridge
  - Message Number: 760883
  - Posted by: Danny
  - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:13:54 1997
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Williamsburg Bridge posted by Lou from Brooklyn on December 18, 1997 at 13:22:38: My train of thought is this: My guess is that they probably won't shut down the bridge until the 63rd Street connection is complete... If they do it before, then you will witness congestion on Queens Blvd. like you have never witnessed before. Besides, I would ride the A, C, E, F, or L trains into Manhattan... I couldn't imagine how it would be like to get off at Marcy, go across the bridge, and get back on the subway at Delancy and Essex... Can you say HEADACHE!
    - Subject: Re: Williamsburg Bridge
    - Message Number: 760898
    - Posted by: Eric B
    - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:14:20 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: Williamsburg Bridge posted by Danny on December 18, 1997 at 15:49:04: Officials tell me that it wiil be in 1999 for 5 months. It would be a great time to test the K/L skip-stop they proposed a few years ago.
      - Subject: Re: Williamsburg Bridge
      - Message Number: 760958
      - Posted by: GarfieldA
      - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:16:20 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Williamsburg Bridge posted by Lou from Brooklyn on December 18, 1997 at 13:22:38: I think this will be another blow for congestion for A,C,J,M, and Z riders. Already the A line is one of the most heavily used train lines in the city since a majority of the line is express. This is one of the reasons why the MTA came with the idea of "Skip-Stop Express" service for the J/Z line. Now with this expected halt of trains using the bridge, this will now increase ridership on the already packed A/C line. Another option for riders will be the L line but for most, all local service and alot of stations in Brooklyn is not their option to go to and from work.
        
        Subject: Re: Williamsburg Bridge
        Message Number: 760993
        Posted by: subway-buff
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:17:29 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Williamsburg Bridge posted by GarfieldA on December 20, 1997 at 07:59:22: Let me assure you. Plans call for *not* clsoing the bridge until the new steel is at the bridge site. then and *only* then will the bridge be closed for 6 months while 3 crews work 6 days a week round the clock to tear down *and* rebuild the "transit structure". The Willie B ,according to an NYC engineer is really three bridges in one- The Manhattan bound roadways, The Brooklyn Bound roadways, and the transit structure in the middle. The closure will *not* be permanent. As far as train servicing- they will restore the switch on the L line to the LIRR bay ridge to allow trains to go to coney Island Shop via Bay ridge and South Brooklyn.(Joe cunningham on the Brooklyn Els Tour: source) It will not be like the FDR where they close before the stee!(The rebuild will be from Essex to Marcy.) The facts? it remains to be seen-116 and lenox is now going to closed for 8 weeks only! The Neighborhood wont let them try to permanently close the bridge
        
        Subject: Re: Williamsburg Bridge
        Message Number: 761016
        Posted by: Eric B
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:18:09 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Williamsburg Bridge posted by subway-buff on December 21, 1997 at 07:21:43: Here's another interesting bit of information on the subject. One morning I was traveling over the bridge, and I was able to see through the tracks to the ground below, and I noticed that the new concrete pillars for the new middle structure are already up, at least on the Brooklyn side! So once the current track is removed, all they will have to do is add the vertical structures and the steelwork.
        
        Subject: Re: Williamsburg Bridge
        Message Number: 761020
        Posted by: Zack
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:18:17 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Williamsburg Bridge posted by Eric B on December 18, 1997 at 20:07:27: It wouldent cost that much $$$ to do that. would it?

Thread title: Can Somebody tell me again How do you inbed a link to the Forum, I seem to (760877)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:13:43 1997, by .

Subject: Can Somebody tell me again How do you inbed a link to the Forum, I seem to
Message Number: 760877
Posted by: .
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:13:43 1997

Thread title: Re: Can Somebody tell me again How do you inbed a link to the Forum, I seem (760879)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:13:47 1997, by .

Subject: Re: Can Somebody tell me again How do you inbed a link to the Forum, I seem
Message Number: 760879
Posted by: .
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:13:47 1997

Thread title: Nostalgia Train In Philadelphia? (760880)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:13:49 1997, by Timothy

Subject: Nostalgia Train In Philadelphia?
Message Number: 760880
Posted by: Timothy
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:13:49 1997

Yesterday, I rode Philadelphia's Broad Street Subway to Fern Rock, and I've noticed that there is a train of old Broad Street Subway/Delaware River Bridge (PATCO) cars in the Fern Rock yard. Can anyone tell me if those cars are used for nostalgia train excursions? If so, Where can I get further information on when they run? Also, when the new M-4 cars go into service on the Market-Frankford Line, Does SEPTA plan to save any of the old trains for the transit museum and/or for nostalgia train excursions? Thanks.
- Subject: Re: Nostalgia Train In Philadelphia?
- Message Number: 760903
- Posted by: Bobw
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:14:30 1997
  
  In Reply to: [8]Nostalgia Train In Philadelphia? posted by Timothy on December 18, 1997 at 13:48:51: SEPTA is not a good organization for retention of old equipment! The cars at Fern Rock are 1 (1928, original Broad St stock, also known as North Broad cars), 166 (1938, purchased for extension to Snyder Ave, known as South Broad Cars), and 1024 (I believe) (1936, Bridge Line, purchased by SEPTA for Broad St service in 1970 when PATCO retired the cars). These have run on occasional fan trips. Check with SEPTA's subway-el office on how to charter. There are a couple of other old cars in the yard which, I believe, are used for work service. I have heard that a few trains of Budds will be kept for the El as backups in case the M-4's go haywire or don't provide the adequate level of service. This happened both on the Broad St Subway and the subway-surface lines when new cars arrived there. The NY Division newsletter has stated from "a source" that all the Budds will be retired. I have heard that this is not true for the above reasons. Also, since there are a few original El cars still in work service, it would make sense that these could be retired and replaced by Budds. The Budds are difficult to maintain and, at 37 years of age, are tempermental. The slow delivery of M-4's and the iffy reliability so far seems to indicate that we're going to see the Budds around for quite a while. I would hesitate to guess, however, given SEPTA's track record, that if a two-car train of Budds is saved for museum purposes, we stand to be lucky. I still cannot believe that a property that inherited 1000 GM old-look 40' buses did not save even one. Although I was young when the "green hornets" were buzzing about the streets in the late 50's and early 60's, they were everywhere you looked. Many people my age who grew up in Phila will clearly associate bus transit with these vehicles, even moreso than the New Looks which were not that common by comparison. Sadly, SEPTA managed to save not a one.

Thread title: NYCT & SEPTA Buses-Thanks For All Your Help! (760890)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:14:07 1997, by Michael S. Buglak

Subject: NYCT & SEPTA Buses-Thanks For All Your Help!
Message Number: 760890
Posted by: Michael S. Buglak
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:14:07 1997

In Reply to: [8]Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet(& Philly's SEPTA, too) posted by Hank Eisenstein on December 17, 1997 at 17:23:49: Thanks for all your responses to my original post! Since now I have a NYCT bus fleet roster, I'd like to provide SEPTA's version: Bus # Yr/Make Comments 1301-1325 84 Neoplan 35-Foot 3000-3131 86 Neoplan Sometimes listed as '87 models 3132-3371 87 Neoplan " " " " '88 " 3372-3491 89 Neoplan 4458-4470 80 GMC RTS 35-Foot, all Retired by 1997 5001-5400 96-97 Ikarus 102" Wide 7001-7050 84 Volvo 60-Foot Articulated 8000-8284 80 GMC RTS Retired In 1997 (if not sooner) 8285-8434 82 Neoplan " " " " " " 8435-8584 83 Neoplan " " " " " " 8590 85 Volvo 102" Wide 8601-8725 84 Neoplan Bus 8725 retired in 1994, fire damage 8726-8875 85 Neoplan All SEPTA buses except for #5001-#5400 & #8590 are 96" wide. All are 40-foot if not otherwise noted above. A happy holiday season to all! Michael S. Buglak, Collegeville, PA

Thread title: What lines does NYCT plan to assign the R142 & R143 to. (760902)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:14:28 1997, by Mike

Subject: What lines does NYCT plan to assign the R142 & R143 to.
Message Number: 760902
Posted by: Mike
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:14:28 1997

If anyone knows on what lines NYCT plans to asign the R142 & R143 cars to & how many will each line will get & what seroel numbers will be used on the R142 & R143 cars. Please post it.
- Subject: Re: What lines does NYCT plan to assign the R142 & R143 to.
- Message Number: 760980
- Posted by: Eric B
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:17:02 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]What lines does NYCT plan to assign the R142 & R143 to. posted by Mike on December 18, 1997 at 20:47:32: The 2 &5, which now have old equipment, and the L, which will begin testing a new signal system, the cars will be designed for. Som may also run on the M, and then we'll see OPTO on that shuttle.

Thread title: SEPTA electronic desination reading list. (760904)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:14:32 1997, by Mike

Subject: SEPTA electronic desination reading list.
Message Number: 760904
Posted by: Mike
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:14:32 1997

If anyone out there has SEPTA's electronic desination reading list, please let me know & post it.
- Subject: Re: SEPTA electronic desination reading list.
- Message Number: 760910
- Posted by: Andrew Byler
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:14:45 1997
  
  In Reply to: [8]SEPTA electronic desination reading list. posted by Mike on December 18, 1997 at 20:49:56: Let me answer you with some questions: For what line(s)? i.e. Broad Street, Market-Frankford, the Commuter Rail, etc.
  - Subject: Re: SEPTA electronic desination reading list.
  - Message Number: 760982
  - Posted by: steve
  - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:17:07 1997
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: SEPTA electronic desination reading list. posted by Andrew Byler on December 18, 1997 at 23:01:30: would you be able to send me a list,,via US Mail,,ofthe commuter Rail destination signs ,,thank you ,,,,Steve Lowenthal,, 59 New Ludlow Rd suite 8B Chicopee ,Mass 01020

Thread title: East River Crossing: line by line (760907)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:14:39 1997, by Eric B

Subject: East River Crossing: line by line
Message Number: 760907
Posted by: Eric B
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:14:39 1997

Post gone after 3 days? Gee whiz! Anyway, sorry that some people complained of being confused. I had limited time and an unstable hookup to worry about. As for Subway Buff's request for a link or posting the charts, I did not get the information from the Web. NYMTC has a post, which I briefly glanced through, but I don't think those tables were on there. [7]You can check for yourself. I wish I could scan the 16 tables and post them, but i do not have access to a scanner now, and do not know how to post a scanned document to this board. So let me try again another way. MBA2 Main components: DeKalb-Rutgers connect with Nostrand Junction. MBA5- Main components: DeKalb-Rutgers conn, Bleecker St n/b transfer MBA8 --Nostand Junction, without Rutgers. TSM (Transportation Service Management)--Low cost options, including Bway-Laf transfer. All options include Lengthening line 3 trains, and Lawrence-Jay transfer. No Build--projects that were dropped from this study because they are alreaby being implemented under other programs, such as the Franklin Av shuttle reconstruction. Bridge scenarios: -C: fully closed; -S: H(Bway) side open only; -N: AB(6th Av) side only open; -O: fully open. A, C, E: Under MBA2, 8 and TSM, a south terminal switch that sends the E express to the Rockaways to use additional Cranberry St tunnel capacity. Since MBA5, which does not include this option was chosen over the others, everyone can STOP WORRYING ABOUT IT! B: During all N and O scenarios, it runs normal to 168 (Eve&wknd service is not listed on the charts) In all C scenarios, it runs to Pacific, even with Rutgers open. In all S scenarios it runs to Astoria via bridge. In MBA2&5-C&S, 168-34th st service operates, as well, but there is no 6Av service in MBA8&TSM -Cand -S plans. It is not mentioned what would make the local stops to 168th in these plans D: in all N and O plans, runs normal. In MBA2&5-C, it is split, running via Tunnel to Astoria. In all S scenarios, it runs via Bridge to 57th. In TSM&MBA8-C, there is no service at all in Brooklyn, only 205th-34th. FV: TSM-C only. It runs with the F to the same terminal, but diverges via 63rd St instead of 53rd. Both lines run 14tph, and there is still no express on the Culver. M: in all C scenarios, to Chambers, even with Rutgers. Runs to Bay Pkwy, 95th St or CI in various plans, and even to CI va Brighton in MBA5-N&O. N: All C scenarios, and N&O without Rutgers, the same local service to Astoria. To 57th via Bridge MBA2&5-S. Express to Astoria: All O scenarios. The most interesting: MBA2&5-N: to 168th via AB, even while the B is still running there. Q: All Rutgers plans: via Rutgers, 6av local& 63rd St to 179th. N and O scenarios without Rutgers: via AB and exp., to 63rd/179th. MBA8&TSM-S: via H to 57th. TSM-C: 12tph from CI through Montague& exp to 57th. Plus, "QS" 7tph from Brighton Beach to Franklin. No express in Bklyn. MBA8-C drops QS; 12tph Q runs by itself on Brighton and extends through the Bway-63rd connection to 179th, replacing FV (the only use of this connection in the plans) It is not listed what would stop at 57th/6th Av in this plan. (In both closed scenarios, the N & R run 8tph for a total of 28 peak trains through Montague) R: unnaffected. S: All S and C plans: Grand-Bway-Laf. T: TSM&MBA8-O only: Bway-West End Exp to 57th, even while B is running. 8tph, uses H track capacity since Q is never returned to Bway in the fully open scenarios. I wish they would use it to replace B in the S and C scenarios. V: TSM&MBA8-S only. 179th-34th. I wish they would use it for all the 63rd/Rutgers plans, to replace the Q which should be used for Broadway. See also FV, above W: MBA2&5-N: Astoria-Whitehall, when N goes to 168th. I wish they would use it to replace Broadway D.
- Subject: Re: East River Crossing: line by line
- Message Number: 760908
- Posted by: David Pirmann - Web Site host
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:14:41 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]East River Crossing: line by line posted by Eric B on December 18, 1997 at 21:53:00: > Post gone after 3 days? Gee whiz! With over 150 posts in a 3-day period it's either expire them to the [8]Archives or get complaints that the page takes too long to load! No posts are gone. They get moved to the archives immediately after being expired from here. Just look thru the Archives with the News/Discussion feature of your browser: news://nycsubway.org/subtalk -Dave
  - Subject: Re: East River Crossing: line by line
  - Message Number: 760956
  - Posted by: Mike Rothenberg
  - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:16:16 1997
    
    In Reply to: [8]East River Crossing: line by line posted by Eric B on December 18, 1997 at 21:53:00: Kudos to Eric B. for providing great detail on the possible changes associated with the Manhattan Bridge work. (I made the request a few days ago and appreciate the information.) The number of construction and bridge operation scenarios, coupled with the train service changes shown, is mind-boggling. Why all the train operational possi- bilities? Much of it seems so arbitrary: just look at how one train line could go on this or that track, to this or that terminal. A few questions - when is work supposed to start? And end? Will trains be restored to the bridge when work is done or be permanently removed? What are the Cranberry St. Tunnel & the Nostrand Junction? Thanks.
    - Subject: Re: East River Crossing: line by line
    - Message Number: 760977
    - Posted by: Eric B
    - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:16:57 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: East River Crossing: line by line posted by David Pirmann - Web Site host on December 18, 1997 at 22:28:02: I keep getting a "group not valid" message. I was just getting ready to ask you about this soon, anyway. (luckily, I am able to access the archives in a library computer)
      - Subject: Re: East River Crossing: line by line
      - Message Number: 760978
      - Posted by: Eric B
      - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:16:59 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: East River Crossing: line by line posted by Mike Rothenberg on December 20, 1997 at 03:43:02: Thank you very much. It was a pleasure to provide the information. I thought it was very fascinating. The Cranberry St tunnel is the one the A & C use, connecting Bway-Nassau and High St. The Nostrand Junction is the junction between the 3/4 and 2/5 on Eastern Pkwy, near Nostrand, which the 2&5 turn off onto. The 5 has to cross over the local connection, and the improvement would add a flying crossover. The layout was in the binder that included the service plans, but I dont think the MTC has any left. You could ask them. I don't know when work would start. It has to be approved and funded first. I think I may have heard in the next decade, but you know how these plans get delayed. It is projected to take about 4 or 5 years, about the same time as the current 63rd St connection construction. The plans do call for train service over the bridge after the construction, depending on whether the bridge is allowed to remain open for train traffic. The partially open (N, S) and fully open (O) scenario service plans are listed in my posts.
        
        Subject: Re: East River Crossing: line by line
        Message Number: 760999
        Posted by: Mike Rothenberg
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:17:41 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: East River Crossing: line by line posted by Eric B on December 20, 1997 at 21:53:41: You're welcome, Eric. (Great job!) What a mess. Wouldn't this be the highest-priority project to use the $$ surplus for: build a new 4 track E. River tunnel for N/B/D/Q trains that can access both Bdwy & 6th Ave. lines in Manhattan as a replacement for the Manhattan Bridge, (i.e.,with the same Mnhtn options as the MB)? This should permanently eliminate the problem. The many MTA train scenarios you provided make no sense to me. Is there any single set of logic principles that would lead anyone to all those (inconsistent) operating scenarios for bridge open/par-open/closed -Rutgers Tun.- Nostrand Junction options?
        
        Subject: Re: East River Crossing: line by line
        Message Number: 761015
        Posted by: Eric B
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:18:08 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: East River Crossing: line by line posted by Mike Rothenberg on December 21, 1997 at 12:14:44: The tunnel replacements were in the original list of alternatives (as were putting tracks in the Battery tunnel, a new crossing in an entirely different location, leading to West St or other places, and a host of other wild ideas.) But they quickly failed the criteria, probably because of cost-benefit analysis. The tunnels were first suggested in 1953, but were deemed way too expensive back then. Try and contact the MTC, or see if you know someone who attended the meetings and got the full set of plans. The logic in the various plans was the best use of whatever capacity they had, or was added by new construction. But I myself don't completely understand everything they listed, either.
        
        Subject: Re: East River Crossing: line by line
        Message Number: 761018
        Posted by: Eric B
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:18:13 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]East River Crossing: line by line posted by Eric B on December 18, 1997 at 21:53:00:

Thread title: Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet (Jersey Cruisers) (760911)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:14:46 1997, by Bootsy

Subject: Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet (Jersey Cruisers)
Message Number: 760911
Posted by: Bootsy
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:14:46 1997

In Reply to: [7]Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet posted by Wayne Johnson on December 18, 1997 at 17:02:47: There are two types of Jersey Cruisers, the MC9A (delivered to NJT between 1982 and 1984) and the MC9B, 1987 model. Both types are almost identical except that the front destinations signs on the MC9A are smaller than the MC9B. I think that Academy operates between Staten Island and Manhattan, but I'm not sure of what equipment they use. Probably either Jersey Cruisers or Flxible Suburbans.
- Subject: Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet (Jersey Cruisers)
- Message Number: 760930
- Posted by: Wayne Johnson
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:15:32 1997
  
  In Reply to: [8]Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet (Jersey Cruisers) posted by Bootsy on December 18, 1997 at 23:05:26: Academy does operate between Staten Island and Manhattan via NJ in both directions. They use their MCI 96A3, 102A3, 102C3 and Prevost H3-41 coaches. I've never seen any of their Jersey Cruisers on these runs. My guess is that the state of NJ will not allow it since the SI - Manhattan routes are just that and do not stop in NJ at all. I'm sure you know that these buses were purchased with State funds. I have a friend at Academy and they refer to the Jersey Cruisers as the "State buses" or "State MC9's". Academy does not have any Flxible suburbans. They do have some Grumman 870 which are used for employee shuttles, route 22 and the Airlink route between Newark Penn Station and EWR. Many of these Grumman 870's are former NYCTA buses.

Thread title: Brooklyn Bridge Rails (760912)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:14:48 1997, by Mellow One

Subject: Brooklyn Bridge Rails
Message Number: 760912
Posted by: Mellow One
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:14:48 1997

In refernce to the Williamsburg Bridge Query, was there a an age problem that caused the Brooklyn El tracks to be removed from the Brooklyn Bridge, or, was it just a political decision. The same applies to the Queenboro Bridge. Although the 2nd Ave was old, the bridge work was substantial, and I guess it could be used again.
- Subject: Re: Brooklyn Bridge Rails
- Message Number: 760915
- Posted by: Adam
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:14:54 1997
  
  In Reply to: [8]Brooklyn Bridge Rails posted by Mellow One on December 18, 1997 at 23:10:22: Were there ever subway tracks on the Queensboro Bridge? If so, how long were they there, what trains ran over them, and when were they removed? I've never heard about this before so I figured I might ask! Thanks!
  - Subject: Re: Brooklyn Bridge Rails
  - Message Number: 760932
  - Posted by: Peter Rosa
  - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:15:36 1997
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Brooklyn Bridge Rails posted by Adam on December 18, 1997 at 23:43:15: Streetcars ran over the Queensboro Bridge until the 1950s. Remnants of the terminal are still visible on the Manhattan side. But there never were subways on the bridge.
    - Subject: Re: Brooklyn Bridge Rails
    - Message Number: 760947
    - Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
    - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:16:02 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Brooklyn Bridge Rails posted by Mellow One on December 18, 1997 at 23:10:22: The trolley and elevated train tracks were removed from the Brooklyn Bridge a very long time ago, mainly so that cars could fit on the bridge. Once the IND Fulton Street and Crosstown lines were built, it did not seem useful to have a bunch of elevated trains dead-end in front of City Hall (which is what they all did from the Brooklyn Bridge) when parallel service was right underneath it in the new 8th Avenue subway, and it even went uptown. And not that many people wanted every bus/trolley route Brooklyn to go to City Hall either. If "politics" is the word you want to use for dismantling obsolete elevated trains lines into a deadend Manhattan terminal over a bridge that probably could not handle the weight of modern equipment (even of the 1930s) and increasing the road capacity from Brooklyn into Manhattan by 50%, at the same time building a brand-new subway (8th Avenue) directly underneath it, okay... I often walk over the Brooklyn Bridge and sometimes think about what it must have been like with the El trains on there, instead of cars... it must have been interesting. But, alas, the world changes...I remember and miss trolley cars on Coney Island Avenue, too.
      - Subject: Re: Brooklyn Bridge Rails
      - Message Number: 760960
      - Posted by: Mellow One
      - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:16:24 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Brooklyn Bridge Rails posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 19, 1997 at 16:01:56: Yes, I know the Brooklyn Bridge tracks have been gone for longer than I have been on this earth, (but not by much). The approaches from the Brooklyn side used the unimproved original El structures. However, as far as deadending at City Hall, you just have to drive accross the bridge, and you dead end on the streets or inch your way to the FDR Drive. What NYC need less of, is automobile traffic. Manhattan Island's automobile /truck/bus capacity was exceeded over 50 years ago. What I was looking for, was, Has ther been any serious (or otherwise) consideration of reusing the bridge for trolleys/light rail. At a minimum, the City of New York could always use the tourist $. The same goes for the Queensboro Bridge. Brooklyn Heights is still a beutiful place. My ancestors made it there home over a century ago. Did you know, that NYC banned steam engines from Manhattan Island almost a century ago. That was the reason Penn Station (the original) and Grand Central Station were built to handle electric trains. The LIRR was at one time partially integrated into the Brooklyn and Queens electric railway system, and ofcourse, its western terminus became Penn Station once the East River tunnels were completed and electrified.
        
        Subject: Re: Brooklyn Bridge Rails
        Message Number: 761005
        Posted by: Lou from Middletown
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:17:51 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Brooklyn Bridge Rails posted by Mellow One on December 18, 1997 at 23:10:22: Actually, there's a very good reason that tracks were removed from Brooklyn Bridge- in 1944 there was a serious track fire, and with The War on, there was no materials to replace the tracks--plus as the other posts point out, there was a duplication of service anyway, and they probably would have been removed anyway!!
        
        Subject: Re: Brooklyn Bridge Rails
        Message Number: 761106
        Posted by: carl margolies
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:21:14 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Brooklyn Bridge Rails posted by Lou from Middletown on December 21, 1997 at 14:43:20: Except that the rails weren't really removed. The various trolley lines that traversed the bridge with the El lines used the same roadway as the private autos. When the Els were discontinued over the bridge, the trolley tracks then began using the El tracks. This arrangement lasted from 1944 to March of 1950.

Thread title: 2nd Ave. Line News (760914)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:14:52 1997, by Andrew Byler

Subject: 2nd Ave. Line News
Message Number: 760914
Posted by: Andrew Byler
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:14:52 1997

This is from the latest edition of Railway Gazette International, a British railroad trade publication, December 1997 edition, pg. 835: The Metropolitan Transportation Authority has announced plans to complete the unfinished Second Avenue subway, which was started in the 1970's to replace the Third Avenue elevated line torn down in 1955. Construction began on four segments, but the tunnels were abandoned when the money ran out. With the parallel Lexington Avenue subway now grossly overcrowded at peak hours, MTA wants to link two part-built sections into a line from 125th St. to 63rd St., where it would connect with the underutilized BMT Broadway subway. Stations would be built at 70th, 86th, 96th, 110th, and 125th Streets. The project is costed at around $5 billion, and local political leaders have promised their support in finding suitable sources of funding. --------------------------------------- My comments: Perhaps there's hope for the world and New York epsecially yet! We'll have to see what comes of it, but it does make a nice Christmas present from St. Rudy to us subway buffs. The $5 billion tag seems a bit steep - I hope that is from some confusion over the cost of the entire line from the tie in with the Dyre Avenue line at 180th St. in the Bronx to Whitehall - otherwise its a ripoff. After all, the entire DC system is going to be built for about $10-12 billion (for 103 miles). Even the vastly over-expensive LA Red Line, at $6 billion for 18 miles, is cheaper than what is being quoted here. I think they need some new cost engineers! So why the highball - cui bono? Not surprisingly, MTA seems to be studying the short option mentioned above as a first stage to getting some significant new mileage built. As has been pointed out before on this site - you heard it here first folks! This idea was mentioned several months ago in the Subway in 2017 thread by one of the readers. If some MTA engineers are getting ideas from here - well, keep at it guys - we're trying! Andy Byler
- Subject: Re: 2nd Ave. Line News
- Message Number: 760929
- Posted by: Julio Perez
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:15:31 1997
  
  In Reply to: [8]2nd Ave. Line News posted by Andrew Byler on December 18, 1997 at 23:25:43: I remember back in '73 or so when crossing intersections along 59th Street east of the Queensboro Bridge made up of wooden streets (instead of steel plates). I suppose that'll be the scene as soon as funding is re-identified along the area. My question: the British journal suggests a connection to the BMT. Andrew B. mentioned something about a tie-in @ East 180th Street, where A-Division (IRT) cars are used. Will the 2nd Avenue line use A-Div or B-Div cars?
  - Subject: Re: 2nd Ave. Line News
  - Message Number: 760943
  - Posted by: Andrew Byler
  - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:15:55 1997
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: 2nd Ave. Line News posted by Julio Perez on December 19, 1997 at 08:47:51: It will use B-division cars. The Second Ave Line in the master plan of 1968 was slated to extend from Whitehall St. in lower Manhattan (where provisions for possible future extension to Brooklyn, presumably Court St. were to be made) to Dyre Ave. in the Bronx. The route in Manahattan was under Second Ave., and would have continued north in the phase three of construction (phase one was 125th St. to 34th St., phase two was 34th St. to Whitehall St.) under the Harlem River where it would have surfaced alongside the Conrail yards near 132nd St. Here it would follow the abandoned right of way of the New York Westchester and Boston along the west side of Amtrak's Hell Gate line to East 180th in the Bronx, where it would use the original Westchester station. It would then continue to Dyre Ave. once the Dyre Ave. line had been suitably modified for B-division use. This of course would orphan the number 5 line, which was supposed to have been extended up Third Ave. in the Bronx to replace the elevated line, now long gone. Andrew Byler
    - Subject: Re: 2nd Ave. Line News
    - Message Number: 760967
    - Posted by: Ogre
    - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:16:36 1997
      
      In Reply to: [8]2nd Ave. Line News posted by Andrew Byler on December 18, 1997 at 23:25:43: Thank God they are going to build it... I know it would make sense to connect it at Lexington Ave. and 63rd Street because on the other side of the staion walls are unused tracks... Knock down the walls and you will have a transfer station... Mental note: Great, running the train down the BMT Broadway line is a good idea, but only if they finish the Manhattan Bridge will it beome a GREAT idea...

Thread title: Update on Breaking the Guinness Record (760919)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:15:14 1997, by Adam

Subject: Update on Breaking the Guinness Record
Message Number: 760919
Posted by: Adam
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:15:14 1997

Hey Everybody! Just a quick note to update y'all on what's going on with our group effort to break the Guinness Book of World Records record for shortest time riding all the lines of the NYC subway. I was thinking of planning a meeting for those interested sometime around the end of this month but seeing as there's not that much new to report I think we should wait. I'm still waiting on a letter back from Guiness about the official records and Freddy is waiting for a response back from the TA from a letter that he sent them. In the meanwhile, I've heard from a few people about itineraries that they have been planning for our derby. At the next meeting we can go over all the ideas, maybe try a few out, and get things rolling. Hopefully, we'll hear back from the people we've written to in two to three weeks and then maybe then around the beginning or middle of January we can all meet. Hope everybody has a great holiday season and New Year! I'm finally done with exams and back from school so I'm planning on spending a lot of time during my vacation underground! If anybody has questions or anything feel free to post here or e-mail me.
- Subject: Re: Update on Breaking the Guinness Record
- Message Number: 760966
- Posted by: Mark Greenwald
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:16:34 1997
  
  In Reply to: [8]Update on Breaking the Guinness Record posted by Adam on December 19, 1997 at 00:06:25: Adam, On the assumption that we have to go through or stop at each station, what do we do about the Aqueduct Racetrack station---this could create its own problems------------
  - Subject: Re: Update on Breaking the Guinness Record
  - Message Number: 760991
  - Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
  - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:17:25 1997
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Update on Breaking the Guinness Record posted by Mark Greenwald on December 20, 1997 at 13:58:06: What problems? Seeing that it is closed 1/2 the time, and is only a northbound stop (?!?!?) and we have to do an out and back to the Rockaways anyhow, unless we start or end there. I'd just like to know why, if the idea for the station was for people going to aquaduct from Manhattan (Original 'Horse Train' ran from 59st/Columbus) and return, why the station is only northbound..... -Hank
    - Subject: Re: Update on Breaking the Guinness Record
    - Message Number: 760996
    - Posted by: Adam
    - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:17:35 1997
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: Update on Breaking the Guinness Record posted by Mark Greenwald on December 20, 1997 at 13:58:06: Well, I guess we just have to see if it will be open or not, but I guess if it's not just passing by should be ok, hopefully but we'll hear from Guinness on that. There are a number of other areas that I am now concerned about, though. I just got a brochure in the mail about the B and Q trains which will now terminate at 57th St. and 6th Ave. To replace the service to Queensbridge/21st Street, a special shuttle will run from 57 St./7th Ave. to Lexington Ave./63rd. St., Roosevelt Island, and 21st St./Queensbridge EVERY 20 MINUTES. This diversion in service will certainly adversly affect our travel time. Also, as SubwayBuff pointed out to me, there will be reduced service on the 1, 2, and 3 lines due to construction over there on one of the stations starting in March and continuing for a couple of months. So, I think we need to discuss these possible problems at our next meeting which hopefully will be soon!

Thread title: Door Obstruction Mod (760920)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:15:15 1997, by Steve

Subject: Door Obstruction Mod
Message Number: 760920
Posted by: Steve
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:15:15 1997

In Reply to: [8]Re: Put R32 & R40 on the "N" line, R68 & a few R40 on the "Q" line & all R68A cars on the "B" line. posted by Lou from Brooklyn on December 18, 1997 at 09:23:01: The door obstruction modification you are referring to is done in the overhaul shop and thus done Mon-Fri between 8AM and 4PM. Moving the 40s to the Q will not be affected by the mod or vice-versa

Thread title: Help (760923)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:15:20 1997, by Albert

Subject: Help
Message Number: 760923
Posted by: Albert
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:15:20 1997

I just moved to Yonkers (Exit 3 off of Route 87) and am in need of help taking the train into Rockerfeller Center. A "park-n-ride" system would suit me well. Is there anything like this where I'm at? Please let me know. Thanks
- Subject: Re: Help
- Message Number: 760939
- Posted by: Alan Follett
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:15:48 1997
  
  In Reply to: [8]Help posted by Albert on December 19, 1997 at 01:19:41: Metro-North's Hudson Line has frequent service between Yonkers and Grand Central--a couple of trains an hour through the day, and more in rush hours. Take a look at their online schedules at http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/mnr/html/planning/schedules/schedule.htm. Happy commuting!
  - Subject: Re: Help
  - Message Number: 760940
  - Posted by: Wayne Johnson
  - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:15:50 1997
    
    In Reply to: [8]Help posted by Albert on December 19, 1997 at 01:19:41: I belive I-87/exit 3 is near Cross County Shopping Center - if so, I would recommend taking the Bee Line Express to Manhattan. The route number is "BXM4C" and it starts in White Plains and pick up along Central Park Ave - the last pickup is at McLean Ave in Yonkers. In Manhattan it travels down Fifth Ave and I believe the closest stop to Rockefeller Ctr is 50th St. The return trip - It runs along Madison Ave - first stop in Yonkers is at McLean Ave.

Thread title: Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet-New equipment purchases (760926)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:15:25 1997, by Fernando Perez

Subject: Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet-New equipment purchases
Message Number: 760926
Posted by: Fernando Perez
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:15:25 1997

In Reply to: [7]Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet posted by Wayne Johnson on December 17, 1997 at 16:11:07: The MTA board recently approved the purchase of 60 over the road coaches from Motor Coach Industries. These buses are 45 feet long and have 17 more more soft seats than current equipment. Also they will have reclining seats, reading lights and luggage racks. Also approved were 10 hybrid buses that combine electric and diesel engines. These buses are low floor with no w/c lift using a ramp at the front door.
- Subject: Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet-New equipment purchases
- Message Number: 761039
- Posted by: Zack
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:18:52 1997
  
  In Reply to: [8]Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet-New equipment purchases posted by Fernando Perez on December 19, 1997 at 07:05:28: for the "hybrieds" look at Seattle's Breda buses. look how unreilable they were. i feel sorry for NYC. they might get good ones that Seattle can adopt for their unnel though ;)

Thread title: Re: SEPTA's "Green Hornets" (GM Old-Look Buses) (760927)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:15:27 1997, by Michael S. Buglak

Subject: Re: SEPTA's "Green Hornets" (GM Old-Look Buses)
Message Number: 760927
Posted by: Michael S. Buglak
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:15:27 1997

In Reply to: [8]Re: Nostalgia Train In Philadelphia? posted by Bobw on December 18, 1997 at 20:49:51: There is at least one SEPTA "Green Hornet" (GM Old-Look) still extant. It's parked in a lot in Wilmington, DE next to the NE Corridor line about a mile of two N of the Wilmington station on the east side of the tracks. It's hard to read the bus number from a train but it looks like #3824 or something like that. You can still see the old round SEPTA logo. The bus looks like it could be restorable with a lot of work! Did SEPTA save any of the RTSes when they were retired this past summer? Michael S. Buglak, Collegeville, PA
- Subject: Re: SEPTA's "Green Hornets" (GM Old-Look Buses)
- Message Number: 761138
- Posted by: Bobw
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:22:21 1997
  
  In Reply to: [8]Re: SEPTA's "Green Hornets" (GM Old-Look Buses) posted by Michael S. Buglak on December 19, 1997 at 08:16:15: I've seen the Green Hornet you've noted. There are a few others still around here and there, I believe. I can't understand why SEPTA doesn't try to get one of them, considering the lengths it's gone to in its purchase of two older ACF Brill buses which will be restored and placed in its museum (one of these is a type which was never operated by PTC!). The only RTS still on the roster is 4459, which has been converted to a transport for Light Rail Operations track crews. A toilet has been added and it has been painted orange. There were a few others in the Frontier Division yard a few months ago but I doubt if any are in a sufficient condition to save, having been a passenger on them for their entire length of service on SEPTA. They weren't all that good when they first arrived, in my opinion, and they didn't get any better with age.
  - Subject: Re: SEPTA's "Green Hornets" (GM Old-Look Buses)
  - Message Number: 761151
  - Posted by: Bootsy
  - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:02:19 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: SEPTA's "Green Hornets" (GM Old-Look Buses) posted by Bobw on December 24, 1997 at 21:43:13: I've been on a SEPTA RTS maybe once or twice a couple of years back, and if I can remember correctly, it seemed as though the bus's steering was very tight and that the driver didn't really have steady control of the wheel. Is this actually true, or did it just feel that way because the ride was so bumpy and the driver kept swerving to avoid obstacles in the street?
    - Subject: Re: SEPTA's "Green Hornets" (GM Old-Look Buses)
    - Message Number: 761186
    - Posted by: Bobw
    - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:04:16 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: SEPTA's "Green Hornets" (GM Old-Look Buses) posted by Bootsy on December 25, 1997 at 12:42:21: Yes and yes, I think. I've never driven one (and I've never driven any bus) but I heard operating folks talk about the unresponsive steering on the buses. Also, the wheelbase was quite long, longer than any other 40' bus operated by SEPTA, and with some of the narrow streets and tight turns on many lines, drivers had to learn how to compensate in turning, etc.
      - Subject: Re: SEPTA's "Green Hornets" (GM Old-Look Buses)
      - Message Number: 761229
      - Posted by: Joe M
      - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:06:17 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: SEPTA's "Green Hornets" (GM Old-Look Buses) posted by Bobw on December 26, 1997 at 21:42:39: The older RTS buses have independnt front suspension that needs to be rebushed on a regualar basis making them unpopular with some rapair departments. With good maintenance they are good buses. NYC transit does a good job with theirs and the newer RTS's (since 1986) have solid front axels and are much easier to keep in good condition. The wheel base is long and the power steering is quick, It's easy to clip a curb if you are not careful with them, especially a 102" 40 footer
        
        Subject: Re: SEPTA's "Green Hornets" (GM Old-Look Buses)
        Message Number: 761230
        Posted by: Joe M
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:06:23 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: SEPTA's "Green Hornets" (GM Old-Look Buses) posted by Bobw on December 26, 1997 at 21:42:39: The older RTS buses have independnt front suspension that needs to be rebushed on a regualar basis making them unpopular with some rapair departments. With good maintenance they are good buses. NYC transit does a good job with theirs and the newer RTS's (since 1986) have solid front axels and are much easier to keep in good condition. The wheel base is long and the power steering is quick, It's easy to clip a curb if you are not careful with them, especially a 102" 40 footer

Thread title: New Transit Fares (760928)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:15:29 1997, by Charles Fiori

Subject: New Transit Fares
Message Number: 760928
Posted by: Charles Fiori
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:15:29 1997

2 articles from today's (12/19) NY Post: [7]"Fare Deal Wins OK, but Minus Rudy's Free Rides" AND [8]"Pataki's Lackeys Railroaded a Dumb Idea"
- Subject: Re: New Transit Fares
- Message Number: 760971
- Posted by: Lefty
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:16:43 1997
  
  In Reply to: [8]New Transit Fares posted by Charles Fiori on December 19, 1997 at 08:38:52: in reaction to the articles... these guys are such pessimists.. i think the monthly pass will still save people a LOT of money. so some working mother or father goes to work every day by subway or bus and comes back and pays regular fare pretty much, but then they could also use it as much as they want on the weekends, or give it to their kids to use on the weekend, which by the way, pataki OKed... the same is the case with the weekly pass, just for people who dont want to pay in advance so much.. the $4 daily pass is out of the question a GREAT deal. if someone wants to take a tour of NYC, or just skip around from place to place alot in one day for any reason, there is no doubt that it saves them money..
  - Subject: Re: New Transit Fares
  - Message Number: 761007
  - Posted by: Fred Wellman
  - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:17:54 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: New Transit Fares posted by Lefty on December 20, 1997 at 16:04:18: The MBTA used to offered a passholder to bring one guest on Sunday's for free. A good selling point to help the pass sell.
    - Subject: Re: New Transit Fares
    - Message Number: 761023
    - Posted by: Timothy Speer
    - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:18:24 1997
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: New Transit Fares posted by Fred Wellman on December 21, 1997 at 15:09:11: The MBTA still allows you to bring a guest on Sundays. Unfortunately, I usually forget...

Thread title: Re: Lost in Yonkers (760934)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:15:39 1997, by Carl M. Rabbin

Subject: Re: Lost in Yonkers
Message Number: 760934
Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:15:39 1997

In Reply to: [7]Help posted by Albert on December 19, 1997 at 01:19:41: Isn't there a Metro North station in Yonkers or Mt. Vernon somewhere? I bet they have parking. There must be parking lots with monthly parking around the 242 St. or Woodlawn Rd. or Bedford Park Blvd. subway stations. How about the Central Avenue Bus to Woodlawn Rd? Surely you could drive to a couple of stations to find out. Finally, to get to Rockefeller Center, just somehow end up on the D train. Or from Metro North lines, take the 6 north one stop and get the F train, or the 7 west one stop and get any northbound 6th Ave. train. Or get off at 125 St. and take the Lexington from there to 51 St, then get the F train. (But you probably knew this part.)

Thread title: Queensboro Bridge Rails (760935)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:15:40 1997, by Ed Sachs

Subject: Queensboro Bridge Rails
Message Number: 760935
Posted by: Ed Sachs
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:15:40 1997

In Reply to: [8]Re: Brooklyn Bridge Rails posted by Adam on December 18, 1997 at 23:43:15: The upper level of the Queensboro bridge was used by 2nd Ave. El trains until 1941. Check out [9]Manhattan and Bronx Els - 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 9th Aves., 1920.

Thread title: Re: Subways songs (760937)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:15:45 1997, by Chris C.

Subject: Re: Subways songs
Message Number: 760937
Posted by: Chris C.
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:15:45 1997

In Reply to: [7]Subways In Pop/Rock Music posted by Timothy on December 16, 1997 at 03:09:59: I don't know about Linda Ronstadt but Bob Dylan wrote a song called "It Takes a Lot to Laugh, It Takes a Train to Cry" Among the lyrics: Don't the breakman look good mama, flaggin' down the Double E There is also a Bob Dylan song called "Visions of Johanna" with the words: And the all-nignt girls they whisper escapades out on the D Train Also, Duke Ellington's classic "Take The A Train" has lyrics telling you to do just that "if you want to go to Harlem".
- Subject: Re: Subways songs
- Message Number: 760989
- Posted by: Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:17:21 1997
  
  In Reply to: [8]Re: Subways songs posted by Chris C. on December 19, 1997 at 11:32:36: She caught the Katy, n' left me a mule to ride
  - Subject: Re: Subways songs
  - Message Number: 761068
  - Posted by: Alan Follett
  - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:19:46 1997
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Subways songs posted by Chris C. on December 19, 1997 at 11:32:36: Can't give you a very detailed citation (any sense of connection I ever had with popular music breaks off somewhere around half-past the Andrews Sisters!)--but IIRC the late-Sixties song "Sounds of Silence" includes the line "The words of the prophet are written on the subway wall."
    - Subject: Re: Subways songs
    - Message Number: 761086
    - Posted by: Charles Fiori
    - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:20:30 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: Subways songs posted by Alan Follett on December 22, 1997 at 18:51:31: In the "Mole People", something about a subway train coming through the wall... Sophie B. hawkins' "D--n, I wish I was your lover" starts off with the distinctive clickety-clack of a subway train.
      - Subject: Re: Subways songs
      - Message Number: 761149
      - Posted by: subway-buff
      - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:02:13 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Subways songs posted by Chris C. on December 19, 1997 at 11:32:36: There is also the Broadway Musical (long closed) and it's signature song "Dont sleep in the subways",. One lione goes like this: Dont sleep in the subways darling, Dont stand in the pouring rain! [I dont know the rest- and even if I did I would not want ASCAP to come after me for royalties :-)
        
        Subject: Re: Subways songs
        Message Number: 761158
        Posted by: Joe M
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:02:46 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Subways songs posted by subway-buff on December 25, 1997 at 06:19:59: I think that was a Petula Clark song from the 60's
        
        Subject: Re: Subways songs
        Message Number: 761312
        Posted by: wsteil
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:18:06 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Subways songs posted by Joe M on December 25, 1997 at 23:50:11: The verse "Don't sleep in the subway, darlin' ..." comes from the Petula Clark song "Downtown". It has no connection with the Broadway musical "Subways Are For Sleeping" Some info on the musical: Music: Jule Styne Lyrics: Betty Comden + Adolph Green Premiere: Wednesday, December 27, 1961, St. James Theatre, (New York) Performances: 205 Phyllis Newman Sydney Chaplin Gene Varrone Carol Lawrence - you've seen her on Carol Burnett's old show Orson Bean Cy Young Bob Gorman John Sharpe SOME OF THE SONGS: Subways are for sleeping Girls like me Subway directions Ride through the night I'm just taking my time I was a shoo-in Who knows what might have been? Strange duet Swing your projects I said it and I'm glad Be a Santa How can you describe a face? I just can't wait Comes once in a lifetime What is this feeling in the air?

Thread title: NYCT Bus electronic desination reading list for 1997. (760938)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:15:47 1997, by Mike

Subject: NYCT Bus electronic desination reading list for 1997.
Message Number: 760938
Posted by: Mike
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:15:47 1997

If anyone out there has a copy of the 1997 NYCT Bus electronic desination reading list for all bus lines including future extensions of a bus route, new bus route & future limited stop service, please post it.
- Subject: Re: NYCT Bus electronic desination reading list for 1997.
- Message Number: 760942
- Posted by: Charles Fiori
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:15:53 1997
  
  In Reply to: [8]NYCT Bus electronic desination reading list for 1997. posted by Mike on December 19, 1997 at 11:37:09: Where were you a few weeks ago? I got a great set of lists via e-mail from someone on this site. Can forward if you care.
  - Subject: Re: NYCT Bus electronic desination reading list for 1997.
  - Message Number: 760952
  - Posted by: carl margolies
  - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:16:10 1997
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: NYCT Bus electronic desination reading list for 1997. posted by Charles Fiori on December 19, 1997 at 12:49:04: Please forward me a copy of the electronic destination bus readings if you can. Thanks in advance. Carl

Thread title: OPTO in New York (760941)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:15:51 1997, by Charles Fiori

Subject: OPTO in New York
Message Number: 760941
Posted by: Charles Fiori
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:15:51 1997

Today's Daily News says OPTO will start. [8]"One Man Trains Pass Test-TA"

Thread title: Re: JFK light rail ...I Agree (760944)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:15:56 1997, by Chris C.

Subject: Re: JFK light rail ...I Agree
Message Number: 760944
Posted by: Chris C.
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:15:56 1997

In Reply to: [7]Re: JFK light rail ...more info posted by John B. Bredin on December 17, 1997 at 09:59:25: Right On! The cutting down on interfacing is the best and most cost effective way to streamline any transportation system. The luggage factor at the airports amplifies the problem considerably. There are other elements of interfacing which are a major pain. More turnstyles and token clerks and cops standing around with nothing to do but watch for turnstyle jumpers. All of this stuff costs money that might be better spent on a new express subway line directly to JFK which would service Brooklyn/Queens and the airports well, rather than just a train that services just the airport and does it badly. Layover time in transfering is also a pain and not coste effective. Off the top of my head Atlantic Avenue in Brookly seems like a direct rout out to JFK. Part of that strip from Court Street to the river already has an unused tunnel. This SUPER TRAIN might run up Ninth Ave. Stopping in back of the Port Authority and Penn Station. From there perhaps World Trade -- Atlantic and Flatbush in Brooklyn -- and JFK.

Thread title: Auctions (760951)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:16:08 1997, by Adam

Subject: Auctions
Message Number: 760951
Posted by: Adam
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:16:08 1997

Does anybody know of an upcoming auction that the TA might have anytime in the near future? I remember one many years ago in the Transit Museum that had a lot of great stuff. Also would anyone know of other places to get old subway signs and the like? Thanks for your help!
- Subject: Re: Auctions
- Message Number: 760959
- Posted by: Charles Fiori
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:16:22 1997
  
  In Reply to: [8]Auctions posted by Adam on December 19, 1997 at 17:11:43: Adam, I have a large collection of subway and bus signs. What are you seeking?
  - Subject: Re: Auctions
  - Message Number: 760962
  - Posted by: Adam
  - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:16:27 1997
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Auctions posted by Charles Fiori on December 20, 1997 at 08:40:23: I am looking mainly for those large rectangular signs that hang from the ceiling in the stations with the station name on them. Do you possibly have any of these that you would want to sell? Thanks!!!
    - Subject: Re: Auctions
    - Message Number: 761057
    - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
    - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:19:25 1997
      
      In Reply to: [8]Auctions posted by Adam on December 19, 1997 at 17:11:43: I was at the last NY Transit Museum Auction and Tag Sale. I bid $50 for the opportunity to spend the day with the crew of the Track Geometry Car TGC-II. No one counter-bid me and boy did I have a great time working on the railroad! I asked the Museum's education folks this past Spring, before the shakeups, if there were plans in the works for another one. They told me that the Auction doesn't bring in as much $$$ to the museum as one would think, and that it is a great deal of work to set up. So I'm not sure if we're gonna see one in the near future. At the auction, a "new look" GMC bus was sold for $950 and there were no bids (the opening one was supposed to be $3,000) on an IRT R-22. --Mark

Thread title: Three 3's are.... 14! (760957)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:16:18 1997, by Todd Glickman

Subject: Three 3's are.... 14!
Message Number: 760957
Posted by: Todd Glickman
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:16:18 1997

Last night I was returning from the meeting of the NY Division of the ERA. I got on an uptown #2 at Chambers St., but we crossed over to the local track due to a reported diabled train at 14th St. Approaching 14th, I could see a #3 holding short of the station, and then the disabled in the station on the express track. It was the R-110A! I got off the #2 to see what was happening. Eventually, the motorman fixed the problem (maybe he rebooted the train, or whatever you do with a New Tech Train!). It left the station light. The line was now all backed up of course. Now, two trains were entering the station: A #3 on each of the local and express tracks, simultaneously! And there was also a #3 on the downtown express. So three 3s into 14! Too bad there was a #1 on the downtown local...
- Subject: Re: Three 3's are.... 14!
- Message Number: 760961
- Posted by: CA Warren
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:16:25 1997
  
  In Reply to: [8]Three 3's are.... 14! posted by Todd Glickman on December 20, 1997 at 07:32:19: Could you send me or post the address of the ERA. Thank you and Merry Christmas.
  - Subject: Re: Three 3's are.... 14!
  - Message Number: 761056
  - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
  - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:19:23 1997
    
    In Reply to: [8]Three 3's are.... 14! posted by Todd Glickman on December 20, 1997 at 07:32:19: Yes, I can see it now on the R-110A's console ..... ... The train is rebooting ... please wait. ... The train is rebooting ... please wait. ... Starting R-110A O/S V4 R20 ..... General Protection Fault C000000005 detected in MOVTRAIN.DLL. The application is terminating. Not enough memory. Contact your service representative for assistance. The system is stopped. --Mark
    - Subject: Re: Three 3's are.... 14!
    - Message Number: 761059
    - Posted by: Todd Glickman
    - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:19:28 1997
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: Three 3's are.... 14! posted by Mark S Feinman on December 22, 1997 at 13:20:09: You got it right, Mark... those were the EXACT messages from the R-110A when it "crashed" and was rebooted. However there were two more you didn't mention: Have a nice day, and thank you for riding NYC Transit. And watchdaclozindawz.
      - Subject: Re: Three 3's are.... 14!
      - Message Number: 761146
      - Posted by: Steve
      - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:01:54 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Three 3's are.... 14! posted by Todd Glickman on December 20, 1997 at 07:32:19: I checked the computer for that day and this incident was not documented anywhere. Very odd !!!

Thread title: Re: Manhattan Bridge etc. (2nd try my browser had been behaving like the N (760963)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:16:29 1997, by .

Subject: Re: Manhattan Bridge etc. (2nd try my browser had been behaving like the N
Message Number: 760963
Posted by: .
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:16:29 1997

Thread title: Re: Baltimore Light Rail & Link Test (760964)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:16:31 1997, by Mark Greenwald

Subject: Re: Baltimore Light Rail & Link Test
Message Number: 760964
Posted by: Mark Greenwald
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:16:31 1997

I'm gooing to make an attempt to provide a link that leads to a current map of the Baltimore Light Rail system. One think to note though, all areas on the map ARE complete so disregard the portions with the dashed lines. Also, trains either run from BWI to Penn Station or Cromwell to Timonium. Here comes the link: [8]This is a link to a map of the Baltimore Light rail--e-mail me if it does or doesn't work
- Subject: Re: Baltimore Light Rail & Link Test
- Message Number: 761076
- Posted by: Joe M
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:20:00 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Re: Baltimore Light Rail & Link Test posted by Mark Greenwald on December 20, 1997 at 12:39:46: The link worked fine. I have heard rumors about possible a historic light rail link in Baltimore. Is there any substance or just rumor?
  - Subject: Re: Baltimore Light Rail & Link Test
  - Message Number: 761082
  - Posted by: Mark Greenwald
  - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:20:21 1997
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Baltimore Light Rail & Link Test posted by Joe M on December 22, 1997 at 23:39:39: Light Rail link?...what sort of light rail link? Off the top of my head, the only new light rail lines that the state of Maryland is REALLY considering is one connecting the DC suburbs of Bethesda and Silver Spring. This line would connect two portions of the Metros' Red Line preventing commuters from having to make the unnessaasary trip all the way downtown and out. As for a light rail link.....details please.
    - Subject: Re: Baltimore Light Rail & Link Test
    - Message Number: 761103
    - Posted by: Joe M
    - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:21:09 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: Baltimore Light Rail & Link Test posted by Mark Greenwald on December 23, 1997 at 09:47:23: A historic shuttle using streecars in the harbor area like New Orleans or Seattle is the rumble I heard. May be a museum group not the transit authority.
      - Subject: Re: Baltimore Light Rail & Link Test
      - Message Number: 761111
      - Posted by: Dan Lawrence
      - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:21:28 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Baltimore Light Rail & Link Test posted by Joe M on December 23, 1997 at 18:07:31: Sorry to burst any historic bubbles, but the Inner Harbor Streetcar Project is just a dream at this point (12/23/1997). There is no support from the city (and at times downright hostility). Equipment is another problem, there is a limited connection to the Baltimore Streetcar Museum, but no BSM cars would be used. Replica historic cars run in the 100K range. Also the local MTA is studying a possible Pratt Steet link to the newly opened Penn Station branch. (Guilford Ave/President St/Pratt St. to Howard). Personally, I do not expect to see an Historic (like McKinney Ave. in Dallas) streetcar line in Baltimore's Inner Harbor in my lifetime.
        
        Subject: Re: Baltimore Light Rail & Link Test
        Message Number: 761157
        Posted by: Joe M
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:02:42 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Baltimore Light Rail & Link Test posted by Dan Lawrence on December 23, 1997 at 23:45:00: Thanks for the news I had heard about it and wanted to know what the scope or poetential for a project was. Happy Hollidays

Thread title: Can Someone Answer My 12/16/97 Post Concerning Polo Grounds Shuttle? (760965)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:16:33 1997, by Timothy

Subject: Can Someone Answer My 12/16/97 Post Concerning Polo Grounds Shuttle?
Message Number: 760965
Posted by: Timothy
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:16:33 1997

I posted a message on 12/16/97, concerning photos of the Polo Grounds Shuttle, but haven't received any responses. Is anyone going to answer my questions in that message? There has to be someone here who is capable of answering the questions I posted. I'm very curious about the Polo Grounds Shuttle, and the ornamental features in its stations and el structure. Hope someone can help me, or at least tell me of other possible transit links on the web, that focus on New York City els. Thanks.
- Subject: Re: Can Someone Answer My 12/16/97 Post Concerning Polo Grounds Shuttle?
- Message Number: 760972
- Posted by: Mellow One
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:16:46 1997
  
  In Reply to: [8]Can Someone Answer My 12/16/97 Post Concerning Polo Grounds Shuttle? posted by Timothy on December 20, 1997 at 13:13:02: The Polo Grounds shuttle was the remains of one of New York City's earliest interurban and local rapid transit systems. First. The picture of the remaaining station structure was the terminus of the New York and Northern RR which crossed a swing bridge from the Bronx to Manhattan Island. This railroad has a history itself, finally ending life as the Putnam Div of the New York Central. Second. The station was also the norther terminus of the 9th Ave El. Before 1900, the NY&N and the 9th Ave El wer owned by private firms and have an interesting history of financial intrigue and railway empire building. Electrification of the els and expansion of the original IRT subway to the Bronx via the Jerome Ave Line produced an interesting portion of the elevated system. The NY&N RR was incorporated into the New York Central (& Hudson River) RR. The bridge (steam operated) was sold/leased? to the IRT and the 9th Ave El was extended across the river and through a tunnel to connect with the Jerome Ave subway elevated structure. The 9th Ave El trains were operating on the Jerome Ave Line before the IRT Harlem River tunnels were completed and put into service. The 9th and 6th Ave Els were replaced by the IND 8th and 6th Ave Subway lines in 1939. However, the Polo Grounds was still generating enough transit revenue to keep the Jerome Ave/Polo Grounds shuttle going. There are tons of NYC and transit history condensed here. I also have a posting on the Bronx Board about the 2nd/#rd Ave El extensions in the Bronx. I will post it here when a similar question arises. Merry Christmas to You and Happy Surfing New Year.

Thread title: The trurth. When will NYCT ever restore 6th Av-Broadway/Brooklyn service. (760970)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:16:41 1997, by Mike

Subject: The trurth. When will NYCT ever restore 6th Av-Broadway/Brooklyn service.
Message Number: 760970
Posted by: Mike
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:16:41 1997

The truth. Ehen will NYCT ever restore 6th Av-Broadway/Brooklyn service & if you know or heard of anything about this & when it might be restored, please post it.

Thread title: R-68As going back to the Q (760974)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:16:51 1997, by Steve

Subject: R-68As going back to the Q
Message Number: 760974
Posted by: Steve
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:16:51 1997

For all of you Q line riders who have gotten used to your morning commute at the front window of a Slant-40 as you traverse the scenic Brighton line, make the most of this week. Likely during next weekend, the Bs and Qs will re-swap equipment. Guess why?????
- Subject: Re: R-68As going back to the Q
- Message Number: 761742
- Posted by: a R68A passenger
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:08:35 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]R-68As going back to the Q posted by Steve on December 20, 1997 at 19:54:48: The Bs and Qs will re-swap equipment because of complains from the Brighton Line riders?
  - Subject: Re: R-68As going back to the Q
  - Message Number: 761743
  - Posted by: Peter Rosa
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:08:37 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]R-68As going back to the Q posted by Steve on December 20, 1997 at 19:54:48: I'll guess that the switch is being made due to all the complaints from Q riders ... not that they ever had a real reason to complain, but that's another story.
    - Subject: Re: R-68As going back to the Q
    - Message Number: 761744
    - Posted by: Steve
    - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:08:39 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: R-68As going back to the Q posted by a R68A passenger on December 20, 1997 at 20:24:45: The question was meant to be rhetorical
      - Subject: Re: R-68As going back to the Q
      - Message Number: 761745
      - Posted by: Adam
      - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:08:42 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]R-68As going back to the Q posted by Steve on December 20, 1997 at 19:54:48: I have 2 questions: 1)What is the difference between the R68 and the R68A's? 2)Does this mean that the R32's and the slant 40's are all going to be on the N line? I took the N train last night and to my surprise both ways I was riding in an R32 while I am used to the R68's. Have they changed the car assignments for the N train lately?
        
        Subject: Re: R-68As going back to the Q
        Message Number: 761747
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:08:47 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: R-68As going back to the Q posted by Adam on December 21, 1997 at 10:22:28: The basic differences between R-68s and R-68As are all cosmetic. From a mechanical standpoint, they are virtually identical. The only significant difference is that the R-68s have New York Air Brake brake equipment while the R-68As use WABCO. This gives the R-68 a decided edge in the braking department. The only other mechanical difference is that the R-68As have been linked into 4-car consists while the R-68s are (at least for now) single car units....
        
        Subject: Re: R-68As going back to the Q
        Message Number: 761749
        Posted by: Eric B
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:08:52 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: R-68As going back to the Q posted by Steve on December 21, 1997 at 16:22:18: The R-68A's also have a less reflective wall, making the cars a bit dimmer. The full width cab doors slide while in the R-68, they swing inward.
        
        Subject: Re: R-68As going back to the Q
        Message Number: 761753
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:09:00 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]R-68As going back to the Q posted by Steve on December 20, 1997 at 19:54:48: You mean, after Christmas (gulp!) I won't be able to enjoy the cab view of the Brighton Line again?? Where's the *#&*(#&) grinch, I'll run him over myself :) --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: R-68As going back to the Q
        Message Number: 761754
        Posted by: GarfieldA
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:09:02 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: R-68As going back to the Q posted by Steve on December 21, 1997 at 16:22:18: What's the big deal ?? Honestly, I prefer the interior of the now Q-trains. The idea of bench seats are what I think better than bucket seats.
        
        Subject: Re: R-68As going back to the Q
        Message Number: 761755
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:09:04 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: R-68As going back to the Q posted by Eric B on December 21, 1997 at 17:56:53: As I said - Cosmetic differences
        
        Subject: Re: R-68As going back to the Q
        Message Number: 761756
        Posted by: Adam
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:09:06 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: R-68As going back to the Q posted by Steve on December 21, 1997 at 23:53:45: Steve, thanks for answering my questions. But I am not very familiar with the different types of cars and their names. I wish that the Transit Museum would have a workshop where they went around and examined each different type of car so people like myself can finally learn all the names of them. I try to tell from pictures on this site but it's really hard for some of them, especially the R68 and the R68A. Are the seats arranged in a similar manner in both? Also, one more question: Where are the slant 40's assigned? I've only seen one on the N train and that was a while back. Thanks a lot to Steve and everybody for being so helpful and answering the many questions I have sometimes! Merry Christmas, Happy Chanukah, and Happy Kwaanza to all at Subtalk and may you all have a warm holiday season. --Adam
        
        Subject: Re: R-68As going back to the Q
        Message Number: 761760
        Posted by: Bootsy
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:09:14 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: R-68As going back to the Q posted by Adam on December 22, 1997 at 00:28:42: Personally, I can't tell the difference between an R-68 and R-68A. Whatever cosmetic difference there is must be extremely minute [my-NUTE]. The R-40 slants were assigned mostly to the B (the entire fleet assigned to the B was R-40 slants), and a few were on the N and L.
        
        Subject: Re: R-68As going back to the Q
        Message Number: 761768
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:09:31 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: R-68As going back to the Q posted by Adam on December 22, 1997 at 00:28:42: currently 200 R-40 Slants are assigned to the Q and 24 to the L. After the B/Q swap, it will be 160 on the B, 40 on the N and 24 on the L. As for the R-68/68A, the seats are virtually identical
        
        Subject: Re: R-68As going back to the Q
        Message Number: 761770
        Posted by: Charles Fiori
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:09:37 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: R-68As going back to the Q posted by Steve on December 23, 1997 at 22:18:42: Those of you who regularly visit this site know my major interest is signs. It seems that the differences between the 2 contracts may include the side destination signs. One has lkarge letters on one line and the other has smaller letters on 2 lines. Such as: 205 Street Bronx vs. 205 Street Bronx & Brighton Beach vs. Brighton Beach Brooklyn As cars have been around, I am sure the distinction has become blurred.
        
        Subject: Re: R-68As going back to the Q
        Message Number: 761771
        Posted by: Timothy Speer
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:09:40 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: R-68As going back to the Q posted by Charles Fiori on December 24, 1997 at 09:53:00: I sure do have a tough time telling the difference...
        
        Subject: Re: R-68As going back to the Q
        Message Number: 761772
        Posted by: Wayne Johnson
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:09:42 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: R-68As going back to the Q posted by Charles Fiori on December 24, 1997 at 09:53:00: Yes, you're right - it has become somewhat blurred as a few R-68's now have the sign with the large letters. Also the first ten R68A's (5001-5010)were delivered with the same signs (small letters/numbers) as the R-68's have.
        
        Subject: Re: R-68As going back to the Q
        Message Number: 761776
        Posted by: Eric B
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:09:51 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: R-68As going back to the Q posted by Wayne Johnson on December 24, 1997 at 11:14:54: Also the R-68A's except for the first 10, have the newer letter signs, with the orange Q and S, Yellow B,D, & S, replacing (rush hr local from Astoria to Whitehall when N runs exp, and over bridge), the Nassau special is changed from yellow to brown, and the letters are grouped by proximity, where the R-68 sign was alphabetical. Replacement signs on the R-68 are the same as the newer ones, but the letter is thicker.
        
        Subject: Re: R-68As going back to the Q
        Message Number: 761782
        Posted by: Shunya
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:10:19 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: R-68As going back to the Q posted by Mark S Feinman on December 21, 1997 at 21:31:48: NNNNnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn nnnnnooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry for being rude, but i cannot stand the R68 and R68A's and newer..... why move it back to the Q? will the R40's return to the B??? Shunya

Thread title: Polo Grounds (155th St.) Viaduct (To Mellow One) (760976)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:16:55 1997, by Timothy

Subject: Polo Grounds (155th St.) Viaduct (To Mellow One)
Message Number: 760976
Posted by: Timothy
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:16:55 1997

In Reply to: [8]Re: Can Someone Answer My 12/16/97 Post Concerning Polo Grounds Shuttle? posted by Mellow One on December 20, 1997 at 19:19:24: Thank you for your information. I've heard that portions of the 155th St. viaduct that leads to the Macombs Dam Bridge are remnants of the 9th Ave. El, and Polo Grounds Shuttle. I remember riding past the viaduct on 8th Ave., and seeing stairways, with very ornamental iron railings, leading up to the viaduct. The underside of the viaduct, in combination with the stairways, looks very much like an el structure. In the section on disused and abandoned subway/elevated stations, it is said that those stairways are remnants of the 9th Ave. El. Also, I think that the 155th St. viaduct stairways were featured in a Levi's 501 Jeans TV commercial back in the early or mid 1980's, however, I have no way of confirming that. I'm hoping that maybe there is someone here in SubTalk who has seen, and remembered that commercial, would be able to tell me if the scene in the commercial was in fact the 155th St. stairways. I'm hoping to sometime photograph the 155th St. viaduct and stairways during my next visit to New York City. I will most likely take the C or D train, and get off at 155th St.. The neighborhood around that area did look somewhat seedy. Even so, Would it be safe for me to take pictures in that area, without risking being mugged or held up? Hope you can help me. Thanks, and happy holidays!!
- Subject: Re: Polo Grounds (155th St.) Viaduct (To Mellow One)
- Message Number: 760985
- Posted by: Andrew Huie
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:17:13 1997
  
  In Reply to: [8]Polo Grounds (155th St.) Viaduct (To Mellow One) posted by Timothy on December 20, 1997 at 21:24:58: As long as your not going at 2AM or flashing large amounts of cash and jewelry (not smart in any neighborhood) you should be just fine. I went by there and didn't feel particularly threatened. The stairways are in terrible condition, so you'll have to photograph them from the foot or the head (one long set of stairs up to the viaduct). The viaduct itself wasn't really part of the 9th Ave El. IMO, even saying the stairways were part of the el is stretching it. After all, the fancy ironwork is also found on the stone steps leading directly up to the viaduct. Also, photos of the 155th st station of the el usually show the station some distance from any overhead structure.

Thread title: Track map template (for those who want to draw) (760979)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:17:00 1997, by Michael Adler

Subject: Track map template (for those who want to draw)
Message Number: 760979
Posted by: Michael Adler
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:17:00 1997

Hi all, What do you all think if I create a track map template based on MS Paintbrush (or Paint) .BMP format and you can use this template to create a system track maps (current or historial)? Any suggestions on the template? Season Greetings, Michael Adler
- Subject: Re: Track map template (for those who want to draw)
- Message Number: 761053
- Posted by: Gary Jacobi
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:19:18 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Track map template (for those who want to draw) posted by Michael Adler on December 20, 1997 at 21:56:34: I think you are a gentleman and a scholar, and eagerly await whatever you can produce. I have drafted several versions of a second IND system, but having used somone else's base maps, I do not feel I have the right to put them on the net. I actually came close to asking you to do just this, but felt it was too much of an imposition on your time.
  - Subject: Re: Track map template (for those who want to draw)
  - Message Number: 761079
  - Posted by: Sergiy Pakhomov
  - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:20:14 1997
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Track map template (for those who want to draw) posted by Gary Jacobi on December 22, 1997 at 12:46:39: >>I think you are a gentleman and a scholar, and eagerly await whatever you >>can produce. I have drafted several versions of a >>second IND system, but having used somone else's base maps, I do not feel >>I have the right to put them on the net. I actually >>came close to asking you to do just this, but felt it was too much of an >>imposition on your time. I am not sure you are right. Maybe for you, possibly living in NYC or its vicinity, it is not interested to put various maps or schemes of NYC transportation facilities on the net, but there are many of people who love (like) railways (subways, trams, etc. - choose appropriate) over the world. Could you kindly tell us where we can get the information about the development one of the biggest transit object as it is NYC? For example, I am able to find in the library the books about the European transits and some of journals like "Stadtverkehr" or "Railway journal". As to me, it is very interested to follow the growth the subway. Thank for good maps on the net. --Sergiy.

Thread title: Re: The trurth. When will NYCT ever restore 6th Av-Broadway/Brooklyn (760981)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:17:04 1997, by .

Subject: Re: The trurth. When will NYCT ever restore 6th Av-Broadway/Brooklyn
Message Number: 760981
Posted by: .
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:17:04 1997

Thread title: Happy Holidays (760983)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:17:09 1997, by Joseph A. Papa

Subject: Happy Holidays
Message Number: 760983
Posted by: Joseph A. Papa
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:17:09 1997

I would like to take this time to wish all "Subtalk" contributors a healthy and prosperous holiday season. A special mention must be given to David Pirmann. Your site has helped further my transportation education and has put me in touch with other "Transit Groupies". A big "Thank You". All the best for 1998, Joseph A. Papa, Superintendent - Division of Stations
- Subject: Re: Happy Holidays
- Message Number: 761012
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:18:03 1997
  
  In Reply to: [8]Happy Holidays posted by Joseph A. Papa on December 21, 1997 at 00:53:30: No problem! Glad to be of service! -Dave
  - Subject: Re: Happy Holidays
  - Message Number: 761036
  - Posted by: charlie muller
  - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:18:47 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Happy Holidays posted by Joseph A. Papa on December 21, 1997 at 00:53:30: a merry christmas and a happry new year to all especially david pirmann king of the rails and subtalk. also may all your signals be green, all your tracks be properly set, and may no trip arms stop you short. also may everyone get a train without a full width cab, so we may see out of the window of the lead car, as we travel the rails into the new year. charlie muller.

Thread title: About the Hoyt Street entrance to Macy's... (760988)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:17:19 1997, by Andrew Huie

Subject: About the Hoyt Street entrance to Macy's...
Message Number: 760988
Posted by: Andrew Huie
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:17:19 1997

I was passing through Borough Park recently and visited the Hoyt St IRT station and Macy's (formerly A&S). Unfortunately, Macy's covered up any trace of the connection to the IRT in their basement, and the entrance in the station itself has been closed for a fairly long time, judging from the dirt on the roll gate and the fact that bars have been placed there in a rather permanent fashion.
- Subject: Re: About the Hoyt Street entrance to Macy's...
- Message Number: 760997
- Posted by: Adam
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:17:37 1997
  
  In Reply to: [8]About the Hoyt Street entrance to Macy's... posted by Andrew Huie on December 21, 1997 at 03:07:15: Did you do a thorough investigation of their basement? Perhaps the entrance is behind a fake wall or something. Why did they ever close it up in the first place? I think that it would be advantageous to have a direct connection from the subway to your store. Last night I went right from the 59th. and Lex. station on the N, R, 4, 5, and 6 into Bloomingdales. I thought this was a great connection!
  - Subject: Re: About the Hoyt Street entrance to Macy's...
  - Message Number: 761009
  - Posted by: subway-buff
  - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:17:58 1997
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: About the Hoyt Street entrance to Macy's... posted by Adam on December 21, 1997 at 10:41:33: Thie entrance is also closed off/blocked off on the transit side. If you enter the station from the street the entrances are separate for each direction. I was in the station recently and did see some doors/panels that looked like they could conceal the entrance. I also notice that they are closing other udnerpasses such as 23 and 8 av (they are down to one), 50th and 8 av etc.
    - Subject: Re: About the Hoyt Street entrance to Macy's...
    - Message Number: 761011
    - Posted by: Peter Rosa
    - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:18:01 1997
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: About the Hoyt Street entrance to Macy's... posted by Adam on December 21, 1997 at 10:41:33: Store entrances to subway stations may not be a completely endangered species. The K-Mart store at Astor Place, which opened a year or so ago, has a basement entrance to the uptown 6 Astor Place station. I don't know whether this entrance was completely new or replaced an older one.
      - Subject: Re: About the Hoyt Street entrance to Macy's...
      - Message Number: 761024
      - Posted by: Tim Speer
      - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:18:25 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: About the Hoyt Street entrance to Macy's... posted by Peter Rosa on December 21, 1997 at 17:22:49: The platform entrance to K-Mart is not new. It used to lead to Wanamaker's, the store that used to be in that building.
        
        Subject: Re: About the Hoyt Street entrance to Macy's...
        Message Number: 761034
        Posted by: Andrew Huie
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:18:43 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: About the Hoyt Street entrance to Macy's... posted by Adam on December 21, 1997 at 10:41:33: It's a definite possibility that the entrance in Macy's is behind a fake wall or in a service area. I should have made it clear that the entrance is no longer visible or accessible to the public, as opposed to obliterated. As for the usefulness of the actual entrance, it appeared to me that it only allowed people to access the bklyn-bound side. There is no crossover to the manhattan-bound side, nor is there any evidence of another entrance to the store on the Manhattan-bound side. It would seem to me that the connection did not seem that useful.

Thread title: ENTERING CITY HALL STATION (760990)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:17:23 1997, by Dave

Subject: ENTERING CITY HALL STATION
Message Number: 760990
Posted by: Dave
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:17:23 1997

I'd like to get to see City Hall station, how can I get a view of it from a train or can I get a motorman to let me off at the station for a quit tour?
- Subject: Re: ENTERING CITY HALL STATION
- Message Number: 760994
- Posted by: Todd Glickman
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:17:31 1997
  
  In Reply to: [8]ENTERING CITY HALL STATION posted by Dave on December 21, 1997 at 06:43:42: You cannot get off the train at City Hall (unless on a Museum tour). However, you ARE now allowed to ride around the loop (this is a recent change, in that the loop tracks are now "public.") Not all motormen know this, however, and some may give you a hard time. You should ask the motorman to call his/her dispatcher and refer to Bulletin 100-95 dated October 24, 1995 which states that passengers are now permitted to ride around the Brooklyn Bridge loop.
  - Subject: Re: ENTERING CITY HALL STATION
  - Message Number: 761004
  - Posted by: Bootsy
  - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:17:49 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: ENTERING CITY HALL STATION posted by Todd Glickman on December 21, 1997 at 07:42:04: And that would be on the IRT Lex-Pelham Local, also known as the #6 train.
    - Subject: Re: ENTERING CITY HALL STATION
    - Message Number: 761010
    - Posted by: Peter Rosa
    - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:18:00 1997
      
      In Reply to: [8]ENTERING CITY HALL STATION posted by Dave on December 21, 1997 at 06:43:42: The City Hall loop on the 6 train is considered revenue track and therefore open to passenger use. Conductors still announce "all passengers off" when the trains pull into Brooklyn Bridge station, but if you ask a conductor or motorman there shouldn't be any problem. When I rode around the loop a couple of weeks ago, I asked the motorman and he readily agreed (though he seemed slightly surprised that anyone would be interested). I would not suggested riding without asking because there always is the chance that the train is going out of service and will be heading back to the yards.
      - Subject: Re: ENTERING CITY HALL STATION
      - Message Number: 761113
      - Posted by: Albert
      - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:21:35 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: ENTERING CITY HALL STATION posted by Peter Rosa on December 21, 1997 at 17:19:15: The conductors should be allowed to announce, when the 6 train stops at Brooklyn Bridge Station, is "This train is making a turn-around to return uptown, passengers wishing to go uptown may remain on this train". I can just imagine the look on everyone's face as the 6 train makes that huge turn around the loop and then seeing the City Hall Station especially if its lit up. I know I would definately stay on for the ride. I bet not that many people who use the 6 train know about this loop at the end of the line. The MTA should also post advertisements on the 6 train allowing passengers to ride the train around the loop if they wanted to. Maybe the ads could be tied in with those ads for the Transit Museum.

Thread title: Re: Aqeduct Race Track Sta ( was RE:Update on Breaking the Guinness Record ) (760992)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:17:27 1997, by subway-buff

Subject: Re: Aqeduct Race Track Sta ( was RE:Update on Breaking the Guinness Record )
Message Number: 760992
Posted by: subway-buff
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:17:27 1997

In Reply to: [8]Re: Update on Breaking the Guinness Record posted by Hank Eisenstein on December 21, 1997 at 07:04:18: The station was the end of the line for this train. According to Joe Cunningham on ther Train to the Sea (Rockaway Tour) the train would be shifted over to the N. Bound track to stop there. It would then go to a layup track awaiting the end of the races. It is still only used when the horses are running. All Manhattan bound trains pass through this stop, whether the train stops or not depends on the horses!
- Subject: Re: Aqeduct Race Track Sta ( was RE:Update on Breaking the Guinness Record )
- Message Number: 761107
- Posted by: Andrew Byler
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:21:17 1997
  
  In Reply to: [8]Re: Aqeduct Race Track Sta ( was RE:Update on Breaking the Guinness Record ) posted by subway-buff on December 21, 1997 at 07:13:47: I've been following this line for a while, and thought had mentioned this before, but I guess I hadn't. The rules for breaking the subway record involve travelling every route mile of the subway. Thus, for example, one need only ride the Fulton line once on the A express - you don't need to get off at every station (which would take forever), and you don't have to ride the C local also. However, this also means that you must hit certain portions of line at certain times - i.e. the M must be ridden through to S. Brooklyn to get that little bit of tunnel below Broad St., and the 5 must be ridden up from 149th St. onto Lexington Ave. Thankfully, this also means that portions now out of service don't have to be ridden (such as the Rockaway's wye track, which used to necessitate record breakers riding out there in the middle of the night). Previous record holders have started at Pelham Bay Park riding an inbound 6 express - I think this is a wise choice. They used to end out in Jamaica on the J, which was the other isolated end of the system. Now that the E and J are joined, we have many new options and should be able to signifcantly cut the travel time needed. A note of caution - the MIT computer geeks decided to start at Times Square with their fancy linear algebra solution routing - and ended up looking very stupid by about 65 minutes. Andy Byler
  - Subject: Re: Aqeduct Race Track Sta ( was RE:Update on Breaking the Guinness Record )
  - Message Number: 761115
  - Posted by: Bob A
  - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:21:39 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: Aqeduct Race Track Sta ( was RE:Update on Breaking the Guinness Record ) posted by Andrew Byler on December 23, 1997 at 21:25:35: Don't forget the City Hall Loop, if that section is now considered to be in revenue service.

Thread title: B and Q construction (760998)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:17:39 1997, by Adam

Subject: B and Q construction
Message Number: 760998
Posted by: Adam
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:17:39 1997

Does anybody know why they are terminating B and Q trains at 57 and 6th Ave for the next 15 months while "track and tunnel reconstruction work" is being completed? Isn't this a recently new line that should be in good working order without need of reconstruction? Or does this have something to do with the 63rd Street tunnel connection which I am strongly suspecting? Either way, this seems like an awfully long time for the Special Shuttle to operate (it will replace the remainder of the B and Q lines by going from 57 and 7th in the N and R station to 63rd. and Lex to Roosevelt Island and then to Queensbridge) from January 4th 1998 to SPRING 1999.
- Subject: Re: B and Q construction
- Message Number: 761000
- Posted by: Steve
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:17:43 1997
  
  In Reply to: [8]B and Q construction posted by Adam on December 21, 1997 at 10:48:27: While the line has not been open all that long, the actual tunnel construction is about 30 years old. It layed, unused, for nearly two decades.
  - Subject: Re: B and Q construction
  - Message Number: 761029
  - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
  - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:18:35 1997
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: B and Q construction posted by Steve on December 21, 1997 at 12:36:37: I think it also has something to do with the replacement of the roadbed. --Mark
    - Subject: Re: B and Q construction
    - Message Number: 761061
    - Posted by: christopher David L
    - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:19:31 1997
      
      In Reply to: [8]B and Q construction posted by Adam on December 21, 1997 at 10:48:27: related to 63 st Construction January 1998 to March 1999' ref Staff Summary Oct 6,1997 ,,page 88
      - Subject: Re: B and Q construction
      - Message Number: 761078
      - Posted by: Mike K
      - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:20:11 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: B and Q construction posted by Mark S Feinman on December 21, 1997 at 21:21:23: Mark is correct. That's the only thing it has to do with. Seems as if the concrete was improperly laid, didn't cure properly, or something like that (don't know exactly what). Either way, it will take all that time to reconstruct each track, while the shuttle single-tracks, first on one side, then the other. BTW: the shuttle is running to 57th/7th? I thought it would go to 57/6th. Seems weird to run it to 57th/7th, unless the TA has some other electrical work they're not mentioning. Also: why don't they extend the shuttle to 2nd Avenue during the overnights so they can 57th/6th open all the time?
        
        Subject: Re: B and Q construction
        Message Number: 761081
        Posted by: Charles Fiori
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:20:19 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: B and Q construction posted by Mike K on December 23, 1997 at 00:07:54: Both 57-7 & 57-6 were terminals at one point. If I remember correctly, the window of the dispatcher's office at the south end of 57-6 was tiled over. How are they going to dispatch trains in and out of there? Same thing at 57-7. Also, at 57-7, any opinions as to whether inbound shuttles will come in to the s/b express track to facilitate connections, or to the n/b plat, to facilitate n/b passengers going to 63 St.? Or, could they pull in s/b, discharge passengers, proceed south and switch over? That would REALLY MAKE SENSE.

Thread title: TransitAds updated! (761001)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:17:44 1997, by Michael Adler

Subject: TransitAds updated!
Message Number: 761001
Posted by: Michael Adler
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:17:44 1997

Hi all, Just to let you all know that TransitAds has (finally) been updated, those in oldads has been transferred to old ads section. Anyone who wants to update their ads, please let me know. As always, posting an ad is free! Season Greetings, Michael Adler Duh, I don't know how to post a link here it's at: http://www.quuxuum.org/transitads/
- Subject: Re: TransitAds updated!
- Message Number: 761027
- Posted by: Mark S Feinman
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:18:31 1997
  
  In Reply to: [8]TransitAds updated! posted by Michael Adler on December 21, 1997 at 12:56:35: Here's the link that, I guess, Michael wanted to put here: Go to [9]TransitAds. --Mark

Thread title: Brighton line between Ocean Pkwy and W 8th (761002)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:17:46 1997, by Robert Adler

Subject: Brighton line between Ocean Pkwy and W 8th
Message Number: 761002
Posted by: Robert Adler
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:17:46 1997

Were there ever storage tracks on the lower level of this el?
- Subject: Brighton line between Ocean Pkwy and W 8th
- Message Number: 761003
- Posted by: Robert Adler
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:17:47 1997
  
  Were there ever storage tracks on the lower level of this el?
  - Subject: Re: Brighton line between Ocean Pkwy and W 8th
  - Message Number: 761013
  - Posted by: Eric B
  - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:18:04 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Brighton line between Ocean Pkwy and W 8th posted by Robert Adler on December 21, 1997 at 12:59:51: No, what you're seeing is a ramp that once connected the Brighton and Culver levels before the full bi-level structure was completed.
    - Subject: Re: Brighton line between Ocean Pkwy and W 8th
    - Message Number: 761017
    - Posted by: Ed Sachs
    - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:18:11 1997
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: Brighton line between Ocean Pkwy and W 8th posted by Eric B on December 21, 1997 at 17:49:03: Actually, the Brighton line once had access to both levels, via the ramps you see there. In 1954, when the IND line was connected to the Culver line, the tracks were removed on these ramps. I do recall once prior to that riding a Brighton line train that used the lower level between Stillwell Ave. terminal and Ocean Parkway, but I believe that, even then, the Brighton line trains normally used the upper level.

Thread title: The Manhattan Brigde Project (761006)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:17:52 1997, by Christopher Rivera

Subject: The Manhattan Brigde Project
Message Number: 761006
Posted by: Christopher Rivera
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:17:52 1997

If they were to open the other side of the Manhattan Bridge would the Q go back to 7 avenue and the N go to Whitehall street and would the R train also go back to the Nassau Local and will the M train go to Coney Island. Plus will the D train go Express again? Thank you for your time. Christopher Rivera
- Subject: Re: The Manhattan Brigde Project
- Message Number: 761026
- Posted by: Mark S Feinman
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:18:29 1997
  
  In Reply to: [8]The Manhattan Brigde Project posted by Christopher Rivera on December 21, 1997 at 15:00:53: Originally, the M was supposed to return to its former route as a Brighton local, the Q was supposed to go back to its former route as a Brighton local and Broadway Express in the rush hours only and the D would go back to being a full time Brighton Express during the weekdays. But it's been so long ago that the Manhattan Bridge project was started that it's really ANYONE's guess what will happen. THAT, plus you now have the 63rd St open to Queensbridge and eventually to the IND Queens Blvd Line. --mark
  - Subject: Re: The Manhattan Brigde Project
  - Message Number: 761143
  - Posted by: Eric B
  - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:22:31 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: The Manhattan Brigde Project posted by Mark S Feinman on December 21, 1997 at 21:15:30: Unfortuately, as I've said on my posts, the plan now is to have the Q extend through the 63rd St. connection, (instead of an originally conceived "V") which would permanently fix it to 6th Av.

Thread title: "mystery" platform on 2/3 line (761008)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:17:56 1997, by subway-buff

Subject: "mystery" platform on 2/3 line
Message Number: 761008
Posted by: subway-buff
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:17:56 1997

Yesterday I rode the number 2 to 96 street and found what appears to be an abandoned or partially finished station on 103 street(I think it is 103- the street the train is udner after it turns off Lenox. I saw what appeared to be a high platform (no signs) with standard stairs going up. The stairs did not have the mergency stair look to them. Does anyone know what I saw? Was this a proposed station to the IND at 103 and Central park West, a work platform or what?
- Subject: Re: "mystery" platform on 2/3 line
- Message Number: 761021
- Posted by: Zack
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:18:19 1997
  
  In Reply to: [8]"mystery" platform on 2/3 line posted by subway-buff on December 21, 1997 at 16:43:39: Was this platform lit? was it finished with tile? was it side platforms? or a center island?
  - Subject: Re: "mystery" platform on 2/3 line
  - Message Number: 761065
  - Posted by: subway-buff
  - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:19:39 1997
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: "mystery" platform on 2/3 line posted by Zack on December 21, 1997 at 20:22:54: The platform was a wall paltform- no tile. As far as lights- just very, very slightly betetr than just tunnel lights. I do not know if there is a similar plarform on the Manhattan Bound side. It is very short- I'd say as short or shorter than 91st and B'way, 18th and Park Ave South. It is very dirty and there is debris on the patform. the stairs seem to be standard passenger concrete type stairs-not crew type steel stairs
    - Subject: Re: "mystery" platform on 2/3 line
    - Message Number: 761148
    - Posted by: Zack
    - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:02:09 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: "mystery" platform on 2/3 line posted by subway-buff on December 22, 1997 at 17:28:02: Could it be a Store room thing?

Thread title: Re: Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains. (761014)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:18:06 1997, by Eric B

Subject: Re: Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains.
Message Number: 761014
Posted by: Eric B
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:18:06 1997

In Reply to: [7]Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains. posted by Mike on December 20, 1997 at 16:27:27: I've heard rumors about these numbers before, and from what I heard, the 8 is supposed to be the express, another number is supposed to be the exp to 238/241, and the other numbers are supposed to be routes with different terminal combinations-- 148th-Flatbush, etc.
- Subject: Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains.
- Message Number: 761741
- Posted by: Mike
- Date: Fri Jan 23 09:08:32 1998
  
  I have noticed that there are future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains. They are #8(Green), #10(Green), #11(Purple), #12(Green) & #13(Red). I would like to know from anyone if they know what these numbers were supposed to be used for, please post it.
  - Subject: Re: Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains.
  - Message Number: 761750
  - Posted by: Eric B
  - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:08:54 1998
    
    In Reply to: [7]Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains. posted by Mike on December 20, 1997 at 16:27:27: Amended: >I've heard rumors about these numbers before, and from what I heard, the 8 is supposed to be the express, another number is supposed to be the exp to 238/241, and the other numbers are supposed to be routes with different terminal combinations-- 148th-Flatbush, etc. ADDITION: I just looked again at your post. If the 11 is purple, that must be the Flushing express. The green 10 must be the Bronx thru-exp, the red 13 is probably 148-Flatbush The green 12, I believe goes from Woodlawn to somewhere, probably Flatbush.
    - Subject: Re: Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains.
    - Message Number: 761757
    - Posted by: IRT
    - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:09:08 1998
      
      In Reply to: [7]Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains. posted by Mike on December 20, 1997 at 16:27:27: The curtain sign colors adhere to the following key on the IRT- Green = Lexington Avenue (4,5,6,(8,10,12)) Red = 7 Avenue / Broadway (1,2,9,(13)) Purple = Flushing line (7,(11))
      - Subject: Re: Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains.
      - Message Number: 761758
      - Posted by: Charles Fiori
      - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:09:10 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains. posted by Mike on December 20, 1997 at 16:27:27: Mike, next time you or anyone else sees this type of thing, see if you can figure out who the manufacturer of the sign was. Just wondering, where did you see the other numbers, or do you have a crank in your pocket??? ;-) If the B Div. abandoned double letters, why would the A div go to 2 digit numbers? Also, does anyone know if these are the original curtains or recent retrofits? The originals wre egetting a bit steel dust-y.
        
        Subject: Re: Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains.
        Message Number: 761759
        Posted by: Timothy Speer
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:09:12 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains. posted by Charles Fiori on December 22, 1997 at 14:54:20: What's wrong with two digit numbers? There are only nine digits besides zero to work with in base ten, unless you want to go to hexadecimal... then how would you differentiate between the IND A and the IRT hexadecimal A, which would represent (9+1) in hex???
        
        Subject: Re: Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains.
        Message Number: 761762
        Posted by: Charles Fiori
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:09:19 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains. posted by Timothy Speer on December 22, 1997 at 15:52:35: Tim, you did not see my tongue firmly implanted in my cheek, I guess. Although I did hear a rumor that the IRT was going to renumber its lines according to a base 2 system. That was right after I heard about the IRT using roman numerals, not only for its lines, but also for its station signs... You are on a northbound III. Change at LXXIId for the uptown I local to CCXLII.
        
        Subject: Re: Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains.
        Message Number: 761763
        Posted by: Timothy Speer
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:09:21 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains. posted by Charles Fiori on December 23, 1997 at 10:57:02: Binary train numbers? I can see it now: the 1 stays the same, the 2 becomes the 10, the 3 becomes the 11, the 4 the 100, etc... AAAAAAAAAARGH! But Roman Numerals? I like that idea!!! Why not? Maybe we should stop giving IRT trains numbers, and stop giving IND/BMT trains letters. We could then use an alphanumeric system based loosely on the Library of Congress system. Honestly -- thanks for the response. I got a great laugh from it -- so big, in fact, that my coworkers must suspect I am not working on the Document and Data Control procedure that I should have finished last week.
        
        Subject: Re: Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains.
        Message Number: 761764
        Posted by: Charles Fiori
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:09:23 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains. posted by Timothy Speer on December 23, 1997 at 11:33:46: Extend the Dewey Decimal system to subways?? If you do ever come across the mfr. of these signs, I would love to hear about it. I have a sample of the current front and Side dests. & routes from the rebuilt 40-42s, but nothing from the 62s...
        
        Subject: Re: Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains.
        Message Number: 761766
        Posted by: Timothy Speer
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:09:27 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains. posted by Charles Fiori on December 23, 1997 at 12:24:29: How about "theme" trains? 6th Ave could be the philosophy lines, 8th Ave can be economics, Queens Blvd. can be anthropology, Brighton can be math...
        
        Subject: Re: Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains.
        Message Number: 761767
        Posted by: Christopher Rivera
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:09:29 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains. posted by Charles Fiori on December 22, 1997 at 14:54:20: TIME OUT! Now the double digts were supposed to be used in the 1960s because the double leters would be confusing. And the 4,5,6 lines don't need 2 more lines and where would they go same for the rest of the lines. The 7 line is a one train line and it will remain that way and where would they find the space for and elevated line in Queens? Try to find that out for me.
        
        Subject: Re: Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains.
        Message Number: 761773
        Posted by: Lefty
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:09:44 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains. posted by Timothy Speer on December 23, 1997 at 15:36:10: i always wanted all trains that arrive at yankee stadium around game time to be painted in pinstripes......
        
        Subject: Re: Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains.
        Message Number: 761775
        Posted by: Bootsy
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:09:49 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains. posted by Lefty on December 24, 1997 at 17:14:46: Wouldn't that be nice? That could easily be done with the Redbirds - -- - come to think of it, they should be painted according to the season or holiday -- they are perfect for Christmas and Valentine's Day (although some should be painted green for Christmas). During the baseball season, the ones assigned to the #4 could be painted in Yankee colors, the ones assigned to the #7 in Mets colors. Independence Day weekend, the could be painted in red, white and blue. St. Patrick;s Day -- green You get the idea.
        
        Subject: Re: Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains.
        Message Number: 761778
        Posted by: Adam
        Date: Fri Jan 23 09:09:57 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains. posted by Bootsy on December 24, 1997 at 22:02:16: You know, I really like this idea with the Mets and the Yankees! I think it's a great way to promote team spirit in NYC and also to give our subway cars some flare. I hope the TA reads this board!

Thread title: Re: East River Crossing: Extra Bus service in TSM-C (761019)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:18:15 1997, by Eric B

Subject: Re: East River Crossing: Extra Bus service in TSM-C
Message Number: 761019
Posted by: Eric B
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:18:15 1997

In Reply to: [7]East River Crossing: line by line posted by Eric B on December 18, 1997 at 21:53:00: One important plan I forgot to mention was that TSM plan for full bridge closure also included extended bus service over both the Manhattan Bridge and the Battery tunnel. The B-45 was to be extended over the bridge, and the B-71 was to be extended through the tunnel. andalong Church St to somewhere in lower Manhattan. A new B-99 was to run from both Atlantic Av and Empire Blvd over the Bridge to Park Row, (along with the 45) replacing the B-51. Sorry about the blank post. As I was beginning to change the title, I hit a key, by accident, and it instantly posted.

Thread title: Manhattan Bridge Replacement (761025)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:18:27 1997, by Larry Littlefield

Subject: Manhattan Bridge Replacement
Message Number: 761025
Posted by: Larry Littlefield
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:18:27 1997

My understanding is the capacity of a subway line is 25 trains per hour, but only because of back-ups at the stations and the signal limitation of one train per fixed block. The reason the Montigue tunnel backs up, therefore, is not because of congestion in the tunnel, but because of the need to get all the trains through the Court St, Lswrence Street, and DeKalb Avenue stations. The theoretical limit for the IND is actually 40 trains per hour, and the TA believes that with new signals 40 trains will be achievable. Under the latest schedule, 25 trains are using the Manhattan bridge, along with 25 in the Montigue tunnel, 14 in the Rutgers Tunnel, and 21 in the Cranberry Tunnel. That is 85 trains, but at 40 trains per hour the three tunnels alone would have capacity for 120 trains. The problem with a single connection from Dekalb to the Rutgers tunnel is that 39 trains per hour would have to stop at East Broadway, Delancy, and 2nd Avenue. But if a second flying junction were installed from the tunnel to Grand Street, I believe the tunnel could accomodate all 40 trains on the B, D, F and Q lines. The trains would merge after the last stations (DeKalb and York), and separate before the first stations (East Broadway and Grand). Similarly, the unused tracks on the south side of the Bridge could be merged into Cranberry Tunnel beyond High Street, with a second connection branching off before Broadway-Nassau into the unused lower level of the BMT station at City Hall. This would restore the Sea Beach line to express service. If the Astoria line were extended to LaGuardia, as proposed by the TA and the Department of City Planning, the connection could also be used for a special airport service. Airport trains coming down the exrpess tracks of the Broadway line from LaGuardia could travel through the Cranberry Tunnel and out the Fulton Street line to JFK. That's four connections. It isn't cheap, but its cheaper than a new tunnel, and better than either waiting for service over the Manhattan Bridge to collapse of settling for one connection and 15 fewer trains per hour from Brooklyn. The connections would provide great flexibility, while a new tunnel would only be able to serve the tracks it were connected to. Moreover, unlike the Queens Boulevard connection, most of the connections would not involve digging up heavily trafficked main thouroughfares. The branch from the Cranberry Tunnel would have to cross Park Row, but the lower level of the City Hall Station could be used as a staging area and trains could be used to haul out the debris, cutting costs. To me, this is emergency construction, and the fact that this is not a political issue just shows the negligence of Brooklyn's political leaders. Forty percent of the income earned by Brooklyn residents in earned in Manhattan. Spending by these commuters is what generates most of the other 60 percent. And 80 percent of Brooklynites working in Manhattan travel by subway. If the remaining tracks over the Manattan Bridge were to be closed for any length of time, much of the southern rim of Brooklyn would soon cease to be comprised of middle income neighborhoods occupied by people with jobs.
- Subject: Re: Manhattan Bridge Replacement
- Message Number: 761040
- Posted by: si2000
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:18:54 1997
  
  In Reply to: [8]Manhattan Bridge Replacement posted by Larry Littlefield on December 21, 1997 at 21:05:33: You are still talking $Billions here, any ideas on how to raise the money without taxing the productive people and businesses in NYC?? No easy solutions. The basic design of the Manhattan Bridge will always be the problem. The trains running on the outer sides stresses the structure.
  - Subject: Re: Manhattan Bridge Replacement
  - Message Number: 761069
  - Posted by: Larry Littlefield
  - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:19:48 1997
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Manhattan Bridge Replacement posted by si2000 on December 22, 1997 at 07:55:24: I have two thoughts on how to pay for improvements. First, in my work at City Planning I am charged with writing the economics section of the Annual Report on Social Indicators each year, including a comparative budget analysis. Therefore, I know that New York City spends less on transportation (education, recreation, etc) as a share of the income of its residents than the national average every year -- despite local taxes which are nearly double the national average. All the additional money goes to the nation's richest medical industry, mostly through Medicaid. Employment in the health care and social service industries has increased from 300,000 in 1983 to 460,000 today, an increase driven mostly by government funding. If the city's spending on transportation matched the national average every year since 1983, it would have spent an addition $7 billion. And the state's spending patterns match the city. My solution? Offer the same rate of Medicaid reimbusement and the same range of services as New Jersey (we'll still spend more, because we have more recipents). Use the money to avoid cutting the poor off from cash benefits, and to launch a public works program for roads, transit, the schools and new parks. You'll gain fewer health care jobs, and perhaps even lose a few, but you'll gain jobs in construction. And the productive residents and businesses of NYC will get some benfit for their money, rather than have the health care industry get it all. Second, why do these public works cost so damn much. The Nassau loop cost $10 million -- thought of as a huge price at the time, but only equivalent to $100 million in today's dollars. The reconstruction of the Rockaway branch, including a new bridge and a ramp to the Fulton El, cost just $48 million -- $256 in today's money. Compare that with $700 million for the Queens Boulevard connection, an expected $800 million just to rehab the rest of the Rockaway Branch to White Pot Junction, $5 billion for a few miles of the Second Avenue Subway, and $2 billion to connect the LIRR to GCT. If someone would tell me what the Christe Street connection cost, and when is was built, I can put that in today's money as well. I'll bet it wasn't $700 million. Morever, adjusted for inflation the average NYC construction worker earned more in 1963 than today. What is going on here? At these prices, if we didn't already have a transportation system, we couldn't afford one, but everyone else seems to be building.
    - Subject: Re: Manhattan Bridge Replacement
    - Message Number: 761116
    - Posted by: Mike Rothenberg
    - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:21:40 1997
      
      In Reply to: [8]Manhattan Bridge Replacement posted by Larry Littlefield on December 21, 1997 at 21:05:33: Compliments to Larry for an interesting concept. I'm not sure I understand what "flyover" means but assume it means new connections between sets of subway tracks that just cross over each other (the currently-unused Delancy St. (J/Z/M) line connection to the F tracks in Manhattan would be an example, I guess). Making more efficient use of the Cranberry and Rutgers tunnels, as he suggests, should be examined. Though billions of $$ may have been poured into the partial white-elephant 63rd St. tunnel & Queens Blvd. connection, the cost to implement his suggestion should be much less.
      - Subject: Re: Manhattan Bridge Replacement
      - Message Number: 761142
      - Posted by: Eric B
      - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:22:29 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Manhattan Bridge Replacement posted by Larry Littlefield on December 21, 1997 at 21:05:33: Interesting. I too had the idea of connecting the Bway exp tracks to Cranberry St.--on both sides (the tunnel is close to the Manhattan bridge approach tracks as well. It diverges from the Jay St/Rutgers line right near the propsed Rutgers connection.) This, plus the Rutgers connection would restore the full express service associated with the bridge, although with less capacity. Plus, they could do things like have the A-Brighton service they proposed a few years ago, without removing it from 8th Av. I asked TA officials why a Cranberry connection was not apart of the East River Crossing study, and they told me that construction would be too disruptive to the area. I guess, even though it is almost as close as Rutgers St, it would have to cut across through an area that might not ne as desolate as the Rutgers construction area.

Thread title: Max. train speed (761028)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:18:33 1997, by John

Subject: Max. train speed
Message Number: 761028
Posted by: John
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:18:33 1997

Anyone know the speed of the N,R trains in the tunnel to Lex.? They seem to go pretty fast.(I would say 50Mph?) Seems faster then the 7 train in the Steinway tunnel. How about the PATH trains under the Hudson River?
- Subject: Re: Max. train speed
- Message Number: 761030
- Posted by: GarfieldA
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:18:36 1997
  
  In Reply to: [8]Max. train speed posted by John on December 21, 1997 at 21:20:08: I notice that all trains that I've taken through a tunnel under the East River go pretty fast in speed. BUT, overhead on both Manhattan and Williamsburg bridges, the speeds of the trains that go on those bridges are SLOW !!. WHY ???
  - Subject: Re: Max. train speed
  - Message Number: 761031
  - Posted by: Bootsy
  - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:18:38 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: Max. train speed posted by GarfieldA on December 21, 1997 at 22:01:37: PATH trains arent' much better - from Exchange Place to World Trade Center is okay, and they go pretty fast between Harrison and Journal Square, but in Jersey City between Journal Square, Grove and Exchange --- S----L----O----W!!!
    - Subject: Re: Max. train speed
    - Message Number: 761032
    - Posted by: Steve
    - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:18:40 1997
      
      In Reply to: [8]Max. train speed posted by John on December 21, 1997 at 21:20:08: The last time I made the trip, Queens bound, an R-68 hit 49 MPH. I'm sure that the R-46s do a bit better.
      - Subject: Re: Max. train speed
      - Message Number: 761033
      - Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
      - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:18:41 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Max. train speed posted by Bootsy on December 21, 1997 at 22:15:51: Ever watch out the front of a PATH train??? You'll know why they go so slow if you do... Oh yeah, also, look at the trackbed and notice the wooden rails on the side opposite the Third Rail (TM). I think these are to keep the shoes on the other side from hitting the ground... Anyone know if that's why?? Also on the way to journal square, note the "falling debri" signs on the old cantenary poles.... And the contace wire above from the bridge onward to Newark. When did this become PATH trackage anyway, and who (PRR???) ran the overhead and to where??
        
        Subject: Re: Max. train speed
        Message Number: 761045
        Posted by: Todd Glickman
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:19:04 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Max. train speed posted by Steve on December 21, 1997 at 23:48:36: I rode the downtown #2 the other day. From 96 to 72 St. the Edo Speedo maxed out at 47. I also rode the A (known in my youth as the 'HH') from Far Rock inbound. Anyone who hasn't done the Broad Channel stretch is missing a real SubTreat. But wait for an R-38 instead of an R-44, so you can get the front view.
        
        Subject: Re: Max. train speed
        Message Number: 761055
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:19:21 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Max. train speed posted by GarfieldA on December 21, 1997 at 22:01:37: Through all of the East River tunnels, the train is restricted to a certain speed (25 or 30 mph?) for most of the downgrade. After that point, the train gets all green signals (provided there isn't another train in front of this one). For that stretch, at full throttle and at downgrade, the train can accelerate rather nicely. Then the train hits the long upgrade and the weight of the train slows it down as the traction motors work their hardest to pull the train up the upgrade. By the time you've reached the top of the upgrade, the train isn't doing more than 25 mph. On the bridges you have the opposite. The approach is a long upgrade and the train is usually given all green signals so it can accelerate up the upgrade. Again, the weight of the train keeps the speed to 25 or 30 mph. As the train gets to the center of the bridge, you've got a downgrade, and you don't want the train becoming a runaway on that downgrade! So the train is usually restricted to 20 mph or so all the way down. --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: Max. train speed
        Message Number: 761063
        Posted by: Fitz
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:19:35 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Max. train speed posted by Philip Nasadowski on December 22, 1997 at 00:53:24: The wooden rails are called "Dummy Rail" and are used to prevent the contact shoes from scraping the cast iron "rings" that comprise most tunnel construction. Trackage between Journal SQ. and Newark was once PRR property. Hudson & Manhattan (PATH's predecessor) trains ran to Newark on these tracks under a trackage rights agreement. PRR once ran passenger service to the Exchange Pl. ferry terminal using these tracks and part of the present Conrail tracks around Journal Sq. Service ended about 1957 (I think).If you can find it,Cudahy's "Rails Under the Mighty Hudson" has a complete description of this service.

Thread title: Re: Max. train speed D express between 34 and west 4 (761037)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:18:48 1997, by Fernando Perez

Subject: Re: Max. train speed D express between 34 and west 4
Message Number: 761037
Posted by: Fernando Perez
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:18:48 1997

In Reply to: [8]Re: Max. train speed posted by GarfieldA on December 21, 1997 at 22:01:37: I remember as a young boy the R42's on the D line going between 34 and West 4 St. would move! When it hit the crossover it would seem as if the train was going to jump the tracks. When looking out the front glass on the PATH it seems as if the train is going to hit the wall. It seems so tight and confined, making the IRT look like standard railroad tunnels!
- Subject: Re: Max. train speed D express between 34 and west 4
- Message Number: 761072
- Posted by: Dan Lawrence
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:19:53 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Re: Max. train speed D express between 34 and west 4 posted by Fernando Perez on December 22, 1997 at 03:26:29: The Hudson Tubes were more interesting when the service was by the "black cars". No headlamps, and the same sharp curves, only done in pitch blackness. Signals approaching curves had DOUBLE repeaters, so the motormen had ample warning, and could slow to the proper speed. (Which in near total darkness still seemed breakneck.) When the PA-1's arrived and the view ahead was lighted, it just wasn't the same. Oh, for the good ol' days.

Thread title: Re: "mystery" platform on 2/3 line (no mystery) (761041)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:18:56 1997, by SubHead

Subject: Re: "mystery" platform on 2/3 line (no mystery)
Message Number: 761041
Posted by: SubHead
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:18:56 1997

In Reply to: [7]"mystery" platform on 2/3 line posted by subway-buff on December 21, 1997 at 16:43:39: You passed the long-abonded 103 Street station. (There is a list of abandoned stations somewhere on this web-site.)
- Subject: Re: "mystery" platform on 2/3 line (no mystery)
- Message Number: 761043
- Posted by: Peter Rosa
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:19:00 1997
  
  In Reply to: [8]Re: "mystery" platform on 2/3 line (no mystery) posted by SubHead on December 22, 1997 at 07:58:35: I checked this listing of abandoned stations on this site, and there's nothing listed for 103rd Street.
  - Subject: Re: "mystery" platform on 2/3 line (no mystery)
  - Message Number: 761044
  - Posted by: David Pirmann
  - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:19:02 1997
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: "mystery" platform on 2/3 line (no mystery) posted by SubHead on December 22, 1997 at 07:58:35: Lets try and stop the spread of misinformation here. The guide you refer to doesn't mention a 103rd St. station. They might have planned to build a station at that location but they never did. Since the IND wasn't built until much later, it couldn't have been conceived as a transfer to the IND...maybe to the 9th Ave. El. So the question still remains, what is the "station-like" thing seen in the IRT tunnels...

Thread title: Re: The truth. When will NYCT ever restore 6th Av-Broadway/BROOKLYN service. (761047)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:19:07 1997, by Carl M. Rabbin

Subject: Re: The truth. When will NYCT ever restore 6th Av-Broadway/BROOKLYN service.
Message Number: 761047
Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:19:07 1997

In Reply to: [7]Re: The trurth. When will NYCT ever restore 6th Av-Broadway/Brooklyn service. posted by Peter Rosa on December 20, 1997 at 23:25:46: I think there is a misunderstanding here. I believe the original question is about when a train will run from Marcy Ave. (and east) over the Williamsburg Bridge, go into Essex St., then use the connection to Bway-Lafayette Station of the 6th Avenue Subway. This was used for awhile, but is now used only for emergency reroutes of Manhattan Bridge 6th Avenue trains. (I have been on a train that went up the Nassau loop into Essex St, then the motorman went to the other end and took it over to Bway-Lafayette.) Anyway, I don't know when they would use it again. I doubt they ever will unless Wmbrg Br trains get a lot busier. My personal opinion is that it is a pain in the neck for people to have to decide: Do I change at Essex for the F or do I wait for the (what used to be called) "KK"? So I don't think they will ever reinstitute that again. BTW, on signs created for after the "Big Change" in 1967, the "MM" sign said "6th Avenue Local", implying that Myrtle Avenue Service might go up 6th Avenue, but that was never implemented.

Thread title: Re: Subways songs (Take the A Train) (761048)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:19:09 1997, by Carl M. Rabbin

Subject: Re: Subways songs (Take the A Train)
Message Number: 761048
Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:19:09 1997

In Reply to: [7]Re: Subways songs posted by Chris C. on December 19, 1997 at 11:32:36: I believe "Take the A Train" is historically interesting for us subway folks in that it was written around the 8th Avenue subway first opened. Letter designations were a new idea on trains, since on the IRT and BMT only names and destinations were used to describe the train. Apparently this modern way of designating train lines captured many people's imaginations, and the song reflects that. Instead of saying, "Take the West Side (IRT) subway but make sure it says 'Bronx Park' or '145-Lenox,'" you could say "Take the (brand-new, complete with double-doors without pillars, 4 to a side, large easy-to-read signs, color-coded stations, [so-called] 'streamlined' express service, and brighter incandescent lights) A Train." Take out the parenthetical part and you've got great song.

Thread title: Lenox Av Invert Resconstruction Beginning 1/1998 (761049)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:19:11 1997, by Christopher David L.

Subject: Lenox Av Invert Resconstruction Beginning 1/1998
Message Number: 761049
Posted by: Christopher David L.
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:19:11 1997

Details of Lenox av 116 st Station Closing Service Changes and Reroutings-- Weekday AM Services========== =Bx/Manh Peak Direction- 2 SB 241 to Flatbush via 7 Av Exp (loc in Bklyn) 3 SB 137/Bwy to New Lotts via 7 Av Exp (loc 137 to 96 st ) .there will be 11 trips from 148 st/Lenox Term to New Lotts frm 6 am to 9 am Bx/Manhattan Non Peak Direction (Northbound) 2 NB Flatbush to 241 via Number 5 via Lex Av Exp ,,Exp in Bklyn except bet 8 Am and 9 am ,,bet 8 am and 9 am from Flatbush to 96/Bwy va 7 av exp (local in Bklyn_ 3 NB New Lotts to 137/Bwy via 7 av Exp (Local 72 st to 137/Bwy,,Loc in Bklyn WEEKDAY PM SERVICE Bx/Man Peak Direction (Northbound) 2 NB Flatbush to 241 via 7 av Exp (Loc Bklyn_) 3 NB New Lotts to 137 /Bway via7 av Exp,,(Loc 72 st to 137 st),,there will be 11 trips from New Lotts to 148 st/Lenox from 5pm to 8 Pm Bx/Manh Non Peak (Northbound) 2 SB 241 to Flatbush along Number 5 route on Lexington Express (loc in Bklyn_)except approx 5 pm to 6 pm ,,at those times ,,frm 96 st /Bway to Flatbus h via 7 Av Exp' 3 SB 137/Bway to New Lotts via 7 Av Exp (Loc 137 st to 96 st) LATE NIGHT SERVICE BOTH DIRECTIONS 2 241 to Flatbush va 7 AV Exp (Loc in Bklyn)Reg Service 24 minute Headway 3 Regular Service,,,No Sundays WEEKEND BIdIRECTIONAL 2 241 to Flatbush via 7 Av Exp(Loc in Bklyn)24 Min Headway 2 Supplemental Flatbush to 96/Bway via 7 Av Exp (Loc in Bklyn )24 Min Headway 3 137/Bway to New Lotts via 7 Av Exp ..loc SB 137 to 96 st,,Loc NB 72 st to 137 5 241/Wakefield to Bowling Green via Lex av Exp 5 Dyre Shuttle bet 180 To Dyre Av B U S E S extra M102 bet 116/Lex and 147/AC Powell via 116 and Powell Cove extra M116 116/Lex to 116/Douglas extra BX15 Bway to Lex via 125 st extra BX33 via 135 st extra BX19 bet Bway and 149/Grand CC via 145 st SHUTTLES 110/BWAY TO 149/AC Powell via w 110 and Lenox (weekdays except Late Nights) L1 (non Peak Direc) 110/Lenox to 125 /Lex (Non Peak Direction) L2 149 /AC Powell to 135/Lenox ,present Bus Shuttle expanded to 24 hr 7 days---L3 149 /AC Powell to 145 /St Nich (weekdays ,,no late nites) L4 This material originated from Staff Summaries Octo ber 197

Thread title: Public transit strike in Chicago? (761050)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:19:13 1997, by John B. Bredin

Subject: Public transit strike in Chicago?
Message Number: 761050
Posted by: John B. Bredin
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:19:13 1997

I heard the absolutely strangest rumor this morning as I came into the city on the Purple Line: the CTA will go on strike tomorrow (Tuesday). There is no mention of this in the Sun-Times or Tribune or their websites, nor on the websites of the local television stations. There was a few weeks ago a taxi strike here in Chicago, and more recently some discussion by the bus drivers' union of a strike on CTA buses, but nothing was said since then, and nothing about striking the rapid transit as well (a different union, if I recall correctly). Anyone heard the same rumors? If it's true -- and I seriously doubt it -- the union would be cutting off its nose to spite its face! The last time there was a major disruption of rapid transit service in Chicago (the Loop Flood), people in droves took the Metra, and many never came back to CTA!
- Subject: Re: Public transit strike in Chicago?
- Message Number: 761067
- Posted by: Alan Follett
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:19:44 1997
  
  In Reply to: [8]Public transit strike in Chicago? posted by John B. Bredin on December 22, 1997 at 12:39:56: There's a story on the Tribune's website, dated 12/18/97, with the headline 'CTA faces strike vote by drivers union." The gist is that Local 241 of the Amalgamated Transit Union, representing bus drivers, will hold a strike vote on January 5. In addition, the story notes that the leadership of ATU local 308, representing rail employees, is expected to vote "next week" (i.e., the week of 12/22) on whether to authorize a strike vote. I found nothing later on the Trib's website, so I doubt that a rapid transit strike is really imminent--if it does happen, it would apparently be a wildcat strike. Possibly the rumor you picked upabout a strike tomorrow is based on some report that Local 308's executive board will decide tomorrow whether to hold a strike vote at some future date? The Tribune site is http://www.chicago.tribune.com; I then did a search on ' "CTA" and "strike" '.

Thread title: B/C Northern Terminal Revision --implement March 98 (761051)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:19:14 1997, by Christopher David L.

Subject: B/C Northern Terminal Revision --implement March 98
Message Number: 761051
Posted by: Christopher David L.
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:19:14 1997

B service revision M-F 6 Am to 9 AM ,,4 Pm to 7 Pm ,bet Beford Park and Coney Island M-F 9 Am to 4 PM and 7 Pm to 9 Pm ,,bet 145 st and Coney Island M-F after 9 Pm ,weekends,,and Nights,,no Changes Between Jan 1998 and March 1999 evening and weekends will terminate at 57 st and 6 av to facilitate 63 st Line Reconstruction C Train M-F 6 Am to 930 Pm 168 st to Euclid Av M-F 930 Pm to 11 PM 168 st and the WTC Weekends (except Nights) 168 st and WTC (No Changes from the Present) A and C operations to 207 and Pitkin Yards B R68 to Coney Island and Concourse Yards all 8 Av on the Upper Level 145 st all 6 Av on the Lower Level 145 st
- Subject: Re: B/C Northern Terminal Revision --implement March 98
- Message Number: 761052
- Posted by: Christopher David L.
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:19:16 1997
  
  In Reply to: [8]B/C Northern Terminal Revision --implement March 98 posted by Christopher David L. on December 22, 1997 at 12:44:53: added E-Mail Address

Thread title: SubTreat (761054)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:19:20 1997, by Mark S Feinman

Subject: SubTreat
Message Number: 761054
Posted by: Mark S Feinman
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:19:20 1997

In Reply to: [8]Re: Max. train speed posted by Todd Glickman on December 22, 1997 at 09:42:33: If you REALLY want a SubTreat, ride the Nostalgia Train when it runs to Far Rockaway. Nothing like the D-types speeding through the Broad Channel stretch. Bonus - no speed governors (or whatever they're called)! --Mark
- Subject: Re: SubTreat
- Message Number: 761090
- Posted by: Peter Rosa
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:20:38 1997
  
  In Reply to: [8]SubTreat posted by Mark S Feinman on December 22, 1997 at 12:59:47: One way to get a terrific sensation of speed through a tunnel is to tkae an LIRR train to or from Flatbush Avenue. While I don't know exactly how fast the trains go through the Atlantic Avenue tunnel, it's definitely well in excess of what the subway can manage. And there's always a fron t window!
  - Subject: Re: SubTreat
  - Message Number: 761110
  - Posted by: Steve
  - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:21:26 1997
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: SubTreat posted by Peter Rosa on December 23, 1997 at 14:15:17: I believe that the MAS (max allowable speed) is 70 in that area. Too bad it isn't slower because there are some very interesting spots on the line. There's the abandoned Woodhaven Station and the connection with the Line to the Rockaways, which is boarded over...
    - Subject: Re: SubTreat
    - Message Number: 761124
    - Posted by: Peter Rosa
    - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:21:55 1997
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: SubTreat posted by Steve on December 23, 1997 at 22:30:31: It's possible to get a quick glimpse of the old Woodhaven station from Flatbush Avenue trains. I had thought, however, that there was no physical track connection from the Atlantic Avenue tunnel to the Rockaway Line ...
      - Subject: Re: SubTreat
      - Message Number: 761183
      - Posted by: a.pardi
      - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:04:06 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: SubTreat posted by Peter Rosa on December 24, 1997 at 10:08:40: with and r46 consist on the r thru 60th st tube and no traffic ahead and timers clearing properly you can achieve 56-7 in both directions(also if you have no dead motors) With R40 or R68/68a on the N in both directions again no traffic ahead timers clearing properly and no dead motors 56-58 mph in both directions. Going northbound on the r you have the 11th street cut for Queens blvd speed should be reduced across the switch. i've flown across the switches a few times and most times queens plaza tower holds you for being ahead of time anyway. N northbound you've climbed the ascent to the portal and your motors are just about dead....
        
        Subject: Re: SubTreat
        Message Number: 761190
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:04:25 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: SubTreat posted by a.pardi on December 26, 1997 at 19:37:20: Last time I made the trip northbound on the N, we reached Queensboro Plaza at the astonishing speed of 17 MPH. I recently had an 8-car R-68 (light) northbound from 161 St. to 167 St. on the Concourse line. Entered 167 at 22 MPH with 8 live motors.
        
        Subject: Re: SubTreat
        Message Number: 761193
        Posted by: Andrew Huie
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:04:35 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: SubTreat posted by Peter Rosa on December 24, 1997 at 10:08:40: Woodhaven Blvd on the surface is pretty interesting too. The old Rockaway line station is still there, but the stations entrances are boarded over. You can see why the station was abandoned though - there isn't much in that neighborhood.

Thread title: Re: Manhattan Bridge $$$$ (761058)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:19:26 1997, by Chris C.

Subject: Re: Manhattan Bridge $$$$
Message Number: 761058
Posted by: Chris C.
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:19:26 1997

In Reply to: [7]Re: Manhattan Bridge Replacement posted by si2000 on December 22, 1997 at 07:55:24: I wouldn't mind seeing a few cent raise in the gas tax. This seems inevitable with encroaching environmental issues. I would also like to see the tolls raised during rush hours.

Thread title: Re: Update on Breaking Horse Stop (761060)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:19:29 1997, by Lou from Brooklyn

Subject: Re: Update on Breaking Horse Stop
Message Number: 761060
Posted by: Lou from Brooklyn
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:19:29 1997

In Reply to: [7]Re: Update on Breaking the Guinness Record posted by Hank Eisenstein on December 21, 1997 at 07:04:18: I would think if a station was open during any part of the 24 hour period you would have to stop at it. IMHO I mean, check with Quinness...

Thread title: Private entrances (was Re: About the Hoyt Street entrance to Macy's...) (761062)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:19:33 1997, by Peter Rosa

Subject: Private entrances (was Re: About the Hoyt Street entrance to Macy's...)
Message Number: 761062
Posted by: Peter Rosa
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:19:33 1997

In Reply to: [8]About the Hoyt Street entrance to Macy's... posted by Andrew Huie on December 21, 1997 at 03:07:15: Another interesting example of a private subway entrance can be seen near Track 1 at the shuttle (S) station in Times Square. The door with the name "Knickerbocker" over it leads into a lower level of the old Knickerbocker Hotel. Located at the SE corner of 42nd Street and Broadway, the former hotel is now an office building, with a large Gap store at street level. While I don't know when the entrance was last used, presumably the turnstile arrangement was quite different then - it's located well within the fare-paid zone. What also may be a private entrance is located at the 34th Street station of the B/D/F/Q and the N/R. At the downtown end of the station, there's a long exit corridor (outside the turnstiles) that leads to the east side of Broadway by 32nd Street. Just past a barbershop, at the foot of the stairs leading to the sidewalk, there is a locked metal door. Could this be a former entrance to the infamous Martinique Hotel, which stands directly above?
- Subject: Re: Private entrances (was Re: About the Hoyt Street entrance to Macy's...)
- Message Number: 761194
- Posted by: Andrew Huie
- Date: Mon Jan 5 22:04:40 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Private entrances (was Re: About the Hoyt Street entrance to Macy's...) posted by Peter Rosa on December 22, 1997 at 14:57:10: it is, but currently is is being used as some kind of service entrance for the hotel. When I used to work in the area and came to work 8:30-9AM, I sometimes saw the door open, which looked like it led into a kitchen. There was also another entrance to something in the token booth area, opposite the opening to the passage. It is marked by a curved wall with slightly different tiling. I'm not sure if I saw the "knickerbocker" entrance. The shuttle station has a lot of interesting traces, including what looks like the ornamentation for a rather large entrance arch, completely plastered over. I have to look over that again!
  - Subject: Re: Private entrances (was Re: About the Hoyt Street entrance to Macy's...)
  - Message Number: 761294
  - Posted by: Peter Rosa
  - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:17:20 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Private entrances (was Re: About the Hoyt Street entrance to Macy's...) posted by Andrew Huie on December 27, 1997 at 04:52:26: The "Knickerbocker" entrance at the Times Square shuttle station is easy to spot. It's on the eastern (toward Grand Central) end of the station, right next to the southernmost track, which I believe is Track One. It's a normal-sized wooden door with the word "KNICKERBOCKER" in raised letters above the frame. This entrance is now well within the fare-paid area, which would seem to doom any chances of it's ever being reopened!

Thread title: LIRR,MNRR M-1 type design and R-44, R-46 (761070)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:19:49 1997, by Lefty

Subject: LIRR,MNRR M-1 type design and R-44, R-46
Message Number: 761070
Posted by: Lefty
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:19:49 1997

are LIRR,MNRR M-x type cars and nyc subway R-44, R-46 the same body design, just with less doors on the LIRR and MNRR ones?
- Subject: Re: LIRR,MNRR M-1 type design and R-44, R-46
- Message Number: 761181
- Posted by: A.pardi
- Date: Mon Jan 5 22:04:00 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]LIRR,MNRR M-1 type design and R-44, R-46 posted by Lefty on December 22, 1997 at 20:27:25: From what i've been told the R44-46 contract cars were originally designed for commuter rail use(LIRR MNRR). If you look on the nyc resource website the state of the art car is the protype design for the R44-46 .
  - Subject: Re: LIRR,MNRR M-1 type design and R-44, R-46
  - Message Number: 761438
  - Posted by: Mark Oring
  - Date: Mon Jan 12 11:01:13 1998
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: LIRR,MNRR M-1 type design and R-44, R-46 posted by A.pardi on December 26, 1997 at 19:12:55: > I beg to differ. My home line at the time was the Queens IND. The R-44's went into service in 1971 and were quite numerous by 1972 on the E & F lines. The State of the Art Cars (SOAC) made their experimental runs in NYC and other cities in 1974. I know because I was there. I took many pix of the SOAC. It is true that the SOAC bears a striking resemblance to the R-44's and R-46's, but the R-44's came first. The R-44's were made by St. Louis Car Co. and the SOAC was made by Boeing-Vertol.
    - Subject: Re: LIRR,MNRR M-1 type design and R-44, R-46
    - Message Number: 761440
    - Posted by: Todd Glickman
    - Date: Mon Jan 12 11:01:17 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: LIRR,MNRR M-1 type design and R-44, R-46 posted by Mark Oring on January 02, 1998 at 15:03:31: If you are interested in seeing the SOAC cars, we have them on static display at the Seashore Trolley Museum in Kennebunkport, Maine. They are being gradually restored by one of our members, however they currently do not run. We're closed for the season now, but you can get our schedule and other Museum information at [9]the Seashore Trolley Museum Home Page p.s. Our R-4 (#800) and R-7 (#1440) do run!
      - Subject: Re: LIRR,MNRR M-1 type design and R-44, R-46
      - Message Number: 761443
      - Posted by: David Pirmann
      - Date: Mon Jan 12 11:01:23 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: LIRR,MNRR M-1 type design and R-44, R-46 posted by Mark Oring on January 02, 1998 at 15:03:31: The SOAC cars were actually based on the R42 body. If you take a look at the pictures we have here at [9]http://www.nycsubway.org/soac/ you can tell by looking at the blind end of the cars that it is pretty similar to the R42 (including the headlights on the blind end!). Mark, if you'd like to contribute some of your SOAC photos that would be really cool. I think it's a pretty neat little train. -Dave
        
        Subject: Re: LIRR,MNRR M-1 type design and R-44, R-46
        Message Number: 761444
        Posted by: David Pirmann
        Date: Mon Jan 12 11:01:25 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: LIRR,MNRR M-1 type design and R-44, R-46 posted by Mark Oring on January 02, 1998 at 15:03:31: One other thing.. Boeing Vertol was the manager of the SOAC project but the two cars were built under subcontract by St. Louis Car. Our SOAC page has lots more information about the SOAC program direct from the FTA. -Dave
        
        Subject: Re: LIRR,MNRR M-1 type design and R-44, R-46
        Message Number: 761475
        Posted by: Mark M. Oring
        Date: Mon Jan 12 11:03:10 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: LIRR,MNRR M-1 type design and R-44, R-46 posted by David Pirmann on January 02, 1998 at 15:42:58: Dave, I was a 20 year old college student in 1974 and have very good recollection of riding the SOAC practically everyday after school. It ran on the D, N, A, and then the E lines while in NYC. They are 75 footers and except for the front look just like the R-44/46. The interior of the high-density car is identical in looks and format (seating arrangement and all) to the R-44/46, except for the carpeting and padding on the seats, of course. If you have done your research and know more than I, my apologies. I'm just telling it like I saw it first-hand 24 years ago. BTW, I love your web site. It is very thorough and very informative. It also brings back a lot of memories. I've been a train freak since I was a toddler. I remember the A/B's, D-Types, Q's, Lo-V's and R-1/9's in regular service. I remember pre-Chrystie St. I remember the 3rd Ave El (I rode the "Farewell to the El" fan trip on 4/29/73) and Ol' Myrt., not to mention the Jamaica El terminating at 168th St., Jamaica. I also remember the R-27's brand spanking new and everything after them throuth the R-46's. I moved out of NYC in 1980 and never been back, even for a vacation, so the only knowledge I have of any post-R-46 equipment comes from your site. I also remember the old 67' cars on the Broad St. Subway in Philadelphia along with the PCC's. I saw your pix of the new Japanese trolleys and Broad St. cars that now run in Philadelphia. It is so hard to believe that the oldest cars on the system are the R-36's. They were so ultra-modern looking back in '64 in their blue/grey World's Fair colors. Now they are the despised Redbirds of the 90's, the last of the non-stainless steel, non-air conditioned cars on the system. I remember when air conditioning in the subway was unthinkable. It was considered impractical to air condition trains whose doors opened so frequently. That was the mindset in the early 60's until the experimental 10-car R-38 was deliveered with A/C in 1966. As for contributing photos, I'd like to but they are slides and my scanner is not capable of scanning transparencies. If I ever get around to getting some of my 5000 or so train slides from the 60's and 70's converted to prints, I'll put them on the Net. Right now, I am in the process of creating a web site dedicated to the NYC Transit System with pix from the 40's through the 70's with prints that I either took myself or acquired from others during the 70's when I was a member of the NYC Division of the Electric Railroaders' Association. Once I get that web site on the Net, maybe we can trade links. Mark
        
        Subject: Re: LIRR,MNRR M-1 type design and R-44, R-46
        Message Number: 761679
        Posted by: Wayne Johnson
        Date: Mon Jan 12 14:11:48 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: LIRR,MNRR M-1 type design and R-44, R-46 posted by David Pirmann on January 02, 1998 at 15:42:58: Dave, Unfortunately, I never rode or saw the SOAC cars when they were in New York as I was very young and we only used IRT routes at the time, but in reference to their appearance - I think they look more like R-44/46 than the R-42.
        
        Subject: Re: Re: LIRR,MNRR M-1 type design and R-44, R-46
        Message Number: 761680
        Posted by: Wayne Johnson
        Date: Mon Jan 12 14:11:50 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: LIRR,MNRR M-1 type design and R-44, R-46 posted by Mark M. Oring on January 03, 1998 at 16:20:39: Mark, The R-36's are not the oldest yet. The R-26 still hold that title, but the R-36 are probably in worst shape these days.
        
        Subject: Re: Re: LIRR,MNRR M-1 type design and R-44, R-46
        Message Number: 761681
        Posted by: Wayne Johnson
        Date: Mon Jan 12 14:11:54 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: LIRR,MNRR M-1 type design and R-44, R-46 posted by Mark M. Oring on January 03, 1998 at 16:20:39: Mark, The R-36's are not the oldest yet. The R-26 still holds that title, but the R-36 are probably in worst shape these days.
        
        Subject: Re: Re: LIRR,MNRR M-1 type design and R-44, R-46
        Message Number: 761691
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Mon Jan 12 14:12:19 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Re: LIRR,MNRR M-1 type design and R-44, R-46 posted by Wayne Johnson on January 07, 1998 at 10:57:01: Physically, the R-36s are in poor shape but they still performed with an MDBF of approximately 200,000 miles in the month of December.

Thread title: Subway Externships (761071)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:19:51 1997, by Adam

Subject: Subway Externships
Message Number: 761071
Posted by: Adam
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:19:51 1997

I was wondering if anybody would help me.... I am one semester away from graduating and I am interested in a career with the Transit Authority. But I'm not sure what job exactly I would be interested in, whether it be a motorman, conductor, station manager, etc. I know a lot of the people who are on SubTalk here work for the Transit Authority, and I was wondering if you could give me some feedback on which jobs are good and what they're like. Also, a lot of my friends are doing externships in their career fields over the winter break, shadowing somebody for a day in their jobs. I was wondering if any of you who work in the subways would be willing to help out a fellow subway afficionado and let me "shadow" you for a day in an "externship" of sorts. Thanks in advance for guiding me in a career choice!

Thread title: Re: Max. train speed/ H&M (761073)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:19:54 1997, by Dan Lawrence

Subject: Re: Max. train speed/ H&M
Message Number: 761073
Posted by: Dan Lawrence
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:19:54 1997

In Reply to: [7]Re: Max. train speed posted by Fitz on December 22, 1997 at 15:51:59: The service to Newark in PRR days was called the "Joint Service" and cars were furnished by both PRR and the H&M. When the K cars arrived in 1958 some were bought by H&M and some by PRR (and carried Pennsylvania on the sides and the Keystone on the ends.)
- Subject: Re: Max. train speed/ H&M
- Message Number: 761074
- Posted by: Dan Lawrence
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:19:56 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Re: Max. train speed posted by Fitz on December 22, 1997 at 15:51:59: The service to Newark in PRR days was called the "Joint Service" and cars were furnished by both PRR and the H&M. When the K cars arrived in 1958 some were bought by H&M and some by PRR (and carried Pennsylvania on the sides and the Keystone on the ends.)
  - Subject: Re: Max. train speed/ H&M
  - Message Number: 761135
  - Posted by: Serafin Jr
  - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:22:16 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: Max. train speed/ H&M posted by Dan Lawrence on December 22, 1997 at 20:56:37: Path max Speed on a Pa1,2 or 3 car and the K car are 55mph between WTC and Exchange Place. From Newark to Jersey City the Max speed for all the PA cars are 65mph the K are 70mph with a light wind on her back and if the Motorman needed to make time.
    - Subject: Re: Max. train speed/ H&M
    - Message Number: 761201
    - Posted by: Fitz
    - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:05:04 1998
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: Max. train speed/ H&M posted by Serafin Jr on December 24, 1997 at 18:23:44: I've operated both types and have never gotten more than 50 MPH out of them on level ground.Fastest that I know of was 61 MPH.That was downhill with a tail wind and recorded by a supervisor with a radar gun. The highest speed limit between Exchange Pl. and WTC is 40 MPH. In practice,speed maxes out in the 37-39 MPH range before having to slow for the curves at WTC.The highest speed limit outdoors is 55 MPH,but this is only reached in rare instances. As built,PA cars WERE capable of 70 MPH.After speed tests were run on the LIRR, they were modified and limited to the 50-55 MPH range,as 70 is neither safe nor practical given the system's configuration.The higher speed was planned for extensions that never came to be.

Thread title: Could commuter trains fit and/or run in a subway? (761075)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:19:58 1997, by Timothy

Subject: Could commuter trains fit and/or run in a subway?
Message Number: 761075
Posted by: Timothy
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:19:58 1997

Will commuter trains, such as the Comets and Silverliners used by SEPTA and New Jersey Transit, fit and/or run in a subway, if they had third rail contacts installed on them? I know that commuter train cars are about 85 feet long, which is longer than most subway cars, but are the cars about the same width and height as a BMT or IND subway train? The reason I ask this, is because I've ridden PATCO between Philadelphia and New Jersey, and I've noticed that the trains have more of a commuter train personality, unlike most subway trains. I've often wondered if commuter train cars have the capability of being converted into subway cars, or if commuter lines, and subway lines could run as a joint operation within a city's boundaries. Are there any rapid transit lines or systems, with tracks that are connected to regular railroads? Thanks.
- Subject: Re: Could commuter trains fit and/or run in a subway?
- Message Number: 761077
- Posted by: Adam
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:20:04 1997
  
  In Reply to: [8]Could commuter trains fit and/or run in a subway? posted by Timothy on December 22, 1997 at 23:20:09: I know that LIRR cars are compatible with the NYC subway system.
  - Subject: Re: Could commuter trains fit and/or run in a subway?
  - Message Number: 761080
  - Posted by: Todd Glickman
  - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:20:17 1997
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Could commuter trains fit and/or run in a subway? posted by Adam on December 22, 1997 at 23:41:56: But ADA would have a big problem with this one: The platform heights are different (50 inches for LIRR and 42 inches for subway I believe?).
    - Subject: Re: Could commuter trains fit and/or run in a subway?
    - Message Number: 761083
    - Posted by: Mellow One
    - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:20:23 1997
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: Could commuter trains fit and/or run in a subway? posted by Todd Glickman on December 23, 1997 at 08:55:55: When the first subway was built in NYC, there was some consideration to intergrating the systems. However, because the width of the IRT equipment was = to the Manhattan El but less than the RR and BRT equipment, any plans for that coordination were shelved. Even the original Brooklyn Bridge equipment did not match the BRT. The BRT (later BMT) did coordinate service with the LIRR on some of the LIRR lines before WWI. The BMT and IND equipment specifications were similar. That is why the extension of the IND to Coney Island was on the BMT Culver line. 2nd Ave El IRT/BMT subway dual service on the Astoria and Flushing lines. However, the BMT cars were not full size subway cars. That equipment eventually operated on the 3rd Ave El. Another item to consider, was that the New York Central employed underrunning third rail while the subway used overruning third rail. The LIRR overruning third rail specs are similar to the BMT/IND line specs. Both the Manhattan and Brooklyn Els employed exposed overruning third rail. The cars had an overruning block slide as opposed to the subway tounge type shoe. Subway equipment could run on the improved elevated structures. However, elevated equipment could not run in the subways (in NYC). Wooden (El) equipment was banned from the NYC subways after the Malbone St Wreck on the Franklin St Line. Another item that comes into play is political boundries. You will note that the NYC transit system terminates at the City Lines. The railroads are usually chartered to run within a state and other laws allow them to operate across state lines. Trolley lines prior to WWI did operate across NYC and outlying county boundries and a few examples existed up until the end of the trolley era in the late 40's and early 50's. Have Santa bring you some NYC transit history books and enjoy the holidays. Merry Christmas and a Happy Surfing New Year.
      - Subject: Re: Could commuter trains fit and/or run in a subway?
      - Message Number: 761088
      - Posted by: Lou from Middletown
      - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:20:33 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Could commuter trains fit and/or run in a subway? posted by Mellow One on December 23, 1997 at 10:01:25: Another problem is, of course, that most or all commuter equipment is longer than NYC B division rolling stock. The original idea of making the old Triborough System 10 ft wide was that maybe the Pennsy or NYC might be interested in taking over the system(i.e. BUY ), but as soon as it became the Dual System they relaxed a lot of the clearences, so I don't THINK an Arrow or M-1 could ever fit without extensive (expensive)refitting-however the MTA used the LIRR to speed test the R-44's when they were first delivered!
        
        Subject: Re: Could commuter trains fit and/or run in a subway?
        Message Number: 761217
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:05:43 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Could commuter trains fit and/or run in a subway? posted by Timothy on December 22, 1997 at 23:20:09: The 85' long commuter trains would not make the curves that even some 75' R-44s, R-46s and R-68(A)s cam barely make in the NY system. --Mark

Thread title: January Fare break (761085)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:20:27 1997, by Chris C.

Subject: January Fare break
Message Number: 761085
Posted by: Chris C.
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:20:27 1997

It seems to me that the TA could give a fare break without using up the surplus. The January "free ride" is the first step towards an all- Metrocard system, eliminating the cost of producing, transporting and counting subway tokens. Not to mention the security of having a cop stand around while someone empties the turnstyles into a bucket. Increased dependence on the metrocard is the beginning of more extensive cuts in token clerks and overtime. Not to mention the fact that the pool of yet-to-be-used money held on Metrocards will increase dramatically as more riders use them and invest in greater amounts in order to get the free fare. This means that the TA will be holding much more fare money up front alowing them to earn intrest and/or pay of services and debts at a faster rate. I can't help but feel that riders should get the fare break in spite of the surplus not because of it. Any thoughts???

Thread title: Re: SubTreat:D types (761087)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:20:32 1997, by Lou from Middletown

Subject: Re: SubTreat:D types
Message Number: 761087
Posted by: Lou from Middletown
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:20:32 1997

In Reply to: [7]SubTreat posted by Mark S Feinman on December 22, 1997 at 12:59:47: Or how about when they're speeding down the Fulton express tracks?!?

Thread title: Xmas Day NJT HOB to Raritan (761089)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:20:36 1997, by Lou from Brooklyn

Subject: Xmas Day NJT HOB to Raritan
Message Number: 761089
Posted by: Lou from Brooklyn
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:20:36 1997

Okay I have to travel via rail on Xmas day to Raritan New Jersey on NJT (never did this before). Can I take PATH to Hoboken for NJT? The Oct. 26th 1997 pax timetable says the Sat,Sun,Holidays every other train leaves there... Is it any easy transfer from PATH to NJT?? Thinking Headend run on the PATH and first time ever trip out of HOB, nice Xmas railfan trip (even though I am going to the inlaws). Otherwise I'd go to Penn Newark and save $2.5 and change of train out of NYP (cost $3.50 more out of NYP, I'll take a buck off for PATH). Thanks for any info (and hoping the D keeps 20min headway Xmas).
- Subject: Re: Xmas Day NJT HOB to Raritan
- Message Number: 761117
- Posted by: Mike K
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:21:42 1997
  
  In Reply to: [8]Xmas Day NJT HOB to Raritan posted by Lou from Brooklyn on December 23, 1997 at 13:46:25: Very easy transfer at Hoboken. The station is up a flight of stairs. I believe you need to use the stairs in the middle of the station.

Thread title: Re: Private entrances August Belmont (761091)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:20:40 1997, by Chris C

Subject: Re: Private entrances August Belmont
Message Number: 761091
Posted by: Chris C
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:20:40 1997

In Reply to: [7]Private entrances (was Re: About the Hoyt Street entrance to Macy's...) posted by Peter Rosa on December 22, 1997 at 14:57:10: I remember reading somwhere that August Belmont, the man who originaly financed the subways had his own private subway entrance at 42nd Street on the 8th Avenue line. I'll have to check it.

Thread title: Re: Private entrances August Belmont + Mineola (761092)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:20:42 1997, by Tomothy Speer

Subject: Re: Private entrances August Belmont + Mineola
Message Number: 761092
Posted by: Tomothy Speer
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:20:42 1997

In Reply to: [8]Re: Private entrances August Belmont posted by Chris C on December 23, 1997 at 14:21:45: I think the entrance was around Grand Central Station somewhere, and was on the IRT. His private subway car was called the Mineola. Belmont would not have had anything to do with financing the 8th Avenue line. Does anyone know if the Mineola has survived?
- Subject: Re: Private entrances August Belmont + Mineola
- Message Number: 761095
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:20:51 1997
  
  In Reply to: [8]Re: Private entrances August Belmont + Mineola posted by Tomothy Speer on December 23, 1997 at 15:01:30: Check the Archives. This subjet has been discussed at length previously. The "Mineola" is at the Shore Line Trolley Museum in Ct. -Dave
  - Subject: Re: Private entrances August Belmont + Mineola
  - Message Number: 761096
  - Posted by: Timothy Speer
  - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:20:54 1997
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: Private entrances August Belmont + Mineola posted by David Pirmann on December 23, 1997 at 15:14:03: Thanks, David. Archives are a great thing for those of us who have no short-term memory! Look -- I spelled my name correctly this time! TSS
    - Subject: Re: Private entrances August Belmont + Mineola
    - Message Number: 761100
    - Posted by: Chris C.
    - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:21:02 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: Private entrances August Belmont + Mineola posted by Tomothy Speer on December 23, 1997 at 15:01:30: You're right, I wasn't thinking clearly. As I remember, the line had something to do with a connection to Belmont Park.

Thread title: RJ service to Chambers St. (761093)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:20:45 1997, by Timothy Speer

Subject: RJ service to Chambers St.
Message Number: 761093
Posted by: Timothy Speer
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:20:45 1997

When did RJ (RR 95th St. to Chambers St.) service stop? I realized suddenly that I didn't notice when it was phased out. That might be because I haven't lived in NYC since 1988!
- Subject: Re: RJ service to Chambers St.
- Message Number: 761099
- Posted by: Charles Fiori
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:21:01 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]RJ service to Chambers St. posted by Timothy Speer on December 23, 1997 at 15:07:14: RJ service went from 95th to 168th, via Nassau Street. I do not believe it was a long-lived service. The service to which you are referring was a branch of the RR, referred to by those from Bay Ridge who rode it as "The Chambers St. Express". It was a rush hour directional service. The side route signs currently in place on R32s/38s have a reading which would allow for this service, with the "R" appearing as a black letter on a yellow diamond.
  - Subject: Re: RJ service to Chambers St.
  - Message Number: 761101
  - Posted by: Wayne Johnson
  - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:21:05 1997
    
    In Reply to: [8]RJ service to Chambers St. posted by Timothy Speer on December 23, 1997 at 15:07:14: Not sure about the exact time that RR service to Chambers was discontinued, but I don't think it lasted into the late eighties. It may have stopped in the early to mid eighties. The RJ service hasn't been around since the 1960's ???. I was only a toddler in the late 1960's, but I do remember seeing it on an old subway map. I think it operated from 168th Street Jamaica to 95th St, Brooklyn.
    - Subject: Re: RJ service to Chambers St.
    - Message Number: 761102
    - Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
    - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:21:07 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: RJ service to Chambers St. posted by Charles Fiori on December 23, 1997 at 15:39:50: That's how I remember it too. The RJ designation was used for maybe a year. It was too much trouble to have that designation for maybe six trains per rush hour. But the RR-Chambers was used for a number of years during the entire time that Brighton locals went up Nassau Street (QJ and M). It was stopped, I believe, when the M started going to the West End line, instead of the Brighton line. Hope this helps too. I was one month shy of 17 when the big change (Chrystie St. connection) occurred in 1967.
      - Subject: Re: RJ service to Chambers St.
      - Message Number: 761104
      - Posted by: david vartanoff
      - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:21:11 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: RJ service to Chambers St. posted by Charles Fiori on December 23, 1997 at 15:39:50: i believe a check of the data will show the 'northerly or easterly' terminal was 169 th street &Jamaica for the RJ indeed this was the sucessor to the "bankers special" pre Chrystie St. It is tyruly sad that the express services of that era (NX, F express in Bklyn, etc. are gone.
        
        Subject: Re: RJ service to Chambers St.
        Message Number: 761105
        Posted by: Mike B
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:21:13 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: RJ service to Chambers St. posted by Wayne Johnson on December 23, 1997 at 15:46:54: The RJ, JJ and QJ were all created after the 1967 changeover. All 3 ran from 168th Street-Jamaica. The RJ ran to 95th street, the QJ to Brighton Beach, and the JJ ran to Broad Street in Manhattan. I believe the RJ and JJ was discontinued in 1968. The QJ ran for quite awhile. When the RJ went away, a dual RR service was started. The normal RR which ran from 95th Street to Astoria at all times, and the Nassau Street RR which ran from 95th Street to Chambers Street-Nassau. I don't remember when the Nassau Street RR was discontinued, but I think it coincided with moving the M from the Brighton to the West-End/4th Avenue Line.
        
        Subject: Re: RJ service to Chambers St.
        Message Number: 761108
        Posted by: Timothy Speer
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:21:19 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: RJ service to Chambers St. posted by Mike B on December 23, 1997 at 19:56:32: Didn't the JJ run to Rockaway Parkway as well?
        
        Subject: Re: RJ service to Chambers St.
        Message Number: 761133
        Posted by: Mike B
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:22:12 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: RJ service to Chambers St. posted by Timothy Speer on December 23, 1997 at 21:45:39: The JJ had one Manhattan termonal which was Broad Street. The other terminals were either Jamaica 168th Street, Atlantic Avenue, Rockaway Parkway or Crescent Street (although I'm not sure about that one)
        
        Subject: Re: RJ service to Chambers St.
        Message Number: 761139
        Posted by: Eric B
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:22:23 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: RJ service to Chambers St. posted by Mike B on December 24, 1997 at 14:23:50: Actually, the JJ that ran to Canarsie (1967 map) was really the KK/#14 local. This was how it was designated on the R-27-38 signs, but noe of these had ever run over there at that time. The BMT Eastern div. routes were just officially lettered with the 1967 changes, and I guess they didn't feel like bothering with the additional letter until the following year when it was routed up 6th Av.
        
        Subject: Re: RJ service to Chambers St.
        Message Number: 761140
        Posted by: Eric B
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:22:25 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: RJ service to Chambers St. posted by Mike B on December 23, 1997 at 19:56:32: The last map to show the R to Chambers was the 1985 map which marked the elimination of double letters. Then, with the 1986 Manhattan Bridge diversions, the M was sent to 95th, replacing it, but then they evetually moved the M to the West End, and didn't replace the R special.
        
        Subject: Re: RJ service to Chambers St.
        Message Number: 761141
        Posted by: Eric B
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:22:27 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: RJ service to Chambers St. posted by Charles Fiori on December 23, 1997 at 15:39:50: The Nassau R is always brown, like the J,M,Z, on all signs made after 1986. It was only yellow beforew then.
        
        Subject: Re: RJ service to Chambers St.
        Message Number: 761163
        Posted by: Charles Fiori
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:03:04 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: RJ service to Chambers St. posted by Eric B on December 24, 1997 at 22:32:25: The 11/29/67 map is really a trove of interesting subway historical perspectives. For example: 1. Services to 168-Jam Av were the JJ, QJ, RJ. 2. Myrtle avenue el was designated the 'MJ'. 3. Third Avenue el was designated the '8'. 4. Shuttle lines, which later on all became designated by 'SS' in green circles, each had its own color. (Lenox-blk; GCentr-lt blu; SoFer-dk blu; Culver-orange; Fkln-yellow; Dyre-green.) 5. 57-6Av did not yet appear 6. NX is depicted. 7. TT is shown as a nites and Sunday West End shuttle. 8. JJ ran 168-Canal SB AMs (skip stop), Canal-Crescent or Atlantic PMs 1964 World's Fair map had letters for all IND services and BMT Southern Division services. Eastern Division services had just names. 1. There was no 'B', just 'BB' which ran rush hours 168-WH/34&6. 2. 'D' ran 205-CI or Church Ave. 3. There was a Bway-Bklyn Local which ran pm rush only Canal-Crescent or Canal-Rkwy Pkwy 4. RR ran 57-7/95-4 M-F 7pm-6am and all day SaSu. 5. 3 Brighton Services: Q & QT ran "normal" hours (M-F 6a-7p), QB other times. 6. 'TT' West End local is shown "Via Tunnel", with terms. Chambers (Nassau Loop)-Bay Parkway (Coney Isl. middays) Service hours M-F 7a-6p. 7. Though the map itself indicates a "Nassau Loop" service, the service guide does not show which line provides the 'through' loop service. (Interesting to note that the service guide on back says "Major Routes on the Rapid Transit System) (Note to Michael Adler/Dave P.: If you want to see/scan these maps, let me know)
        
        Subject: Re: RJ service to Chambers St.
        Message Number: 761167
        Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:03:17 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: RJ service to Chambers St. posted by Charles Fiori on December 26, 1997 at 08:15:08: There hasn't been clockwise and counterclockwise Nassau Loop service since around 1959 or 1960 when the already curtailed Culver line (Ditmas Avenue as southern terminal) changed from Nassau Loop counterclockwise to a 9th Ave-Ditmas Avenue shuttle full time. The only Nassau Bridge service I ever saw as a young fellow during the early 1960s were 4th Avenue locals that started at Chambers Street and went over the Manhattan Bridge to Dekalb and then to 95th St-Fort Hamilton. They maybe had 3 a day each way. The other Nassau St. service that did not go over the Williamsburg Bridge was the West End Local through the tunnel to Chambers St, and the special unlisted special Brighton Express trains that also ran through the tunnel to Chambers St (designated "M" until 1967). In 1967, when the Big Change was made, all this was superceded by the new scheduling and the Nassau Bridge service disappeared forever.

Thread title: Which cars run on which lines?; more hexadecimal humor (761094)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:20:49 1997, by Timothy Speer

Subject: Which cars run on which lines?; more hexadecimal humor
Message Number: 761094
Posted by: Timothy Speer
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:20:49 1997

Is there an all inclusive listing of which maintenance facility each type of subway car is assigned to? I know cars aren't assigned to a specific route per se, but I'd love to know which cars in general are on which lines. One thing I notice is that every time I visit my parents in NYC, I go to the 2nd Avenue stop on the F, and I ALWAYS get on an R-46. I HATE R-46's! (although their door chimes sound much better than the ones in Boston!) Do any other cars ever run on the F? By the way -- F in hexadecimal would be 16 in base 10!
- Subject: Re: Which cars run on which lines?; more hexadecimal humor
- Message Number: 761097
- Posted by: Wayne Johnson
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:20:56 1997
  
  In Reply to: [8]Which cars run on which lines?; more hexadecimal humor posted by Timothy Speer on December 23, 1997 at 15:13:08: Steve had posted a list some time ago, but the F line currently uses only R-46 cars.
  - Subject: Re: Which cars run on which lines?; more hexadecimal humor
  - Message Number: 761109
  - Posted by: Steve
  - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:21:24 1997
    
    In Reply to: [8]Which cars run on which lines?; more hexadecimal humor posted by Timothy Speer on December 23, 1997 at 15:13:08: Things have changed since the last time I posted this list. I'm doing it from memory but here it is - I think. A ..... R-44, R-38, R-110B * B ..... R-68A (soon R-40s I think)* C ..... R-32, R-38 (Soon R-44 for OPTO) Another reason for the B/C swap) D ..... R-68* E ..... R-32, R-46 occassionally* F ..... R-46* G ..... R-46 (6 cars) R-32 (8-cars) J/Z ..... R-42 or R-40M (8 cars) L ..... R-40s or R-42 (8 cars) M ..... R-40M or R-42 (8 cars) N ..... R-32 or R-68 * Q ..... R-40S (soon to be R-68A)* R ..... R-32, R-46 * FS .... R-68 (2 Car) The * indicates a 600 foot train, either 8 75' cars or 10 60' cars I will not venture to guess at the IRT
    - Subject: Re: Which cars run on which lines?; more hexadecimal humor
    - Message Number: 761120
    - Posted by: Wayne Johnson
    - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:21:47 1997
      
      In Reply to: [8]Which cars run on which lines?; more hexadecimal humor posted by Timothy Speer on December 23, 1997 at 15:13:08: Here is the list for IRT lines.... 1/9 R-62A 2 R-33, R-110A (Somtimes R-26/28, 29) 3 R-62A 4 R-62, R-33 5 R-26/28, R-29, R-62A (OPTO), Occasionally R-33 6 R-26/28, R-29, R-62A, and a few mainline R-36 7 R-33 (single unit), R-36 S R-62A
      - Subject: Re: Which cars run on which lines?; more hexadecimal humor
      - Message Number: 761122
      - Posted by: Lou from Brooklyn
      - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:21:51 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Which cars run on which lines?; more hexadecimal humor posted by Steve on December 23, 1997 at 21:48:14: I work right accross from Queensboro Plaza and can confirm that N has R68's and R32's but lately there have been R68A's (car numbers 5000 so I believe those are A's) and R40Slants...
        
        Subject: Re: Which cars run on which lines?; more hexadecimal humor
        Message Number: 761134
        Posted by: Adam
        Date: Sun Dec 28 18:22:14 1997
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: Which cars run on which lines?; more hexadecimal humor posted by Lou from Brooklyn on December 24, 1997 at 09:58:54: The N seems to be having many more R32's than last time I was riding it, in the summer. A few months ago, the N seemingly had all R68 or R68A's but every time I have ridden it lately, I have gotten an R32. I'm not complaining, though. I happen to like the R32's much better than the R68's. One of the main reasons is that you can walk through the cars. Does anyone know why they are locked on the R68's? I think it's unsafe and annoying to have them locked. What's the point???

Thread title: Time on our hands (761098)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:20:58 1997, by Charles Fiori

Subject: Time on our hands
Message Number: 761098
Posted by: Charles Fiori
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:20:58 1997

In Reply to: [7]Which cars run on which lines?; more hexadecimal humor posted by Timothy Speer on December 23, 1997 at 15:13:08: Tim, you (and I) have way too much time on our hands! I remember RT Ops used to put out such a list as you suggest. What form it takes, I do not know, as when I worked there, we used DEC impact printers! If I can find one which I had from back then, I will submit it to this site.

Thread title: 18th Street Station (761112)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:21:32 1997, by Albert

Subject: 18th Street Station
Message Number: 761112
Posted by: Albert
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:21:32 1997

I sometimes pass by the old 18th Street station -4,5,6 line-. I faintly see the stairs or exit. I also go to college down the block on 18th Street, between Park and Lex Aves. My question is where exactly was the entrances to this station? Sometimes when I pass by this corner I try to make out where an entrance was. If it was where an entrance is normally, they did a good job of erasing any signs of such an entrance. Are there any telltale marks of a prior entrance to the old 18th St. Station.
- Subject: Re: 18th Street Station
- Message Number: 761114
- Posted by: Bob A
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:21:37 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]18th Street Station posted by Albert on December 24, 1997 at 01:47:42: I used to work in that area in the early 70's and, even back then, there seemed to be no trace of where the entrance might have been.
  - Subject: Re: 18th Street Station
  - Message Number: 761118
  - Posted by: Bill from S.I.
  - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:21:44 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]18th Street Station posted by Albert on December 24, 1997 at 01:47:42: There should be something on the south east corner, on 18th St. off of Park Ave. South next to the buliding. I know they had it opened when they had that derailment in that area a few years back.
    - Subject: Re: 18th Street Station
    - Message Number: 761123
    - Posted by: Peter Rosa
    - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:21:53 1997
      
      In Reply to: [8]18th Street Station posted by Albert on December 24, 1997 at 01:47:42: I've looked around the intersection of Park Avenue South and 18th Street for any traces of the station entrances, but haven't found anything. Most likely any evidence was gone once the sidewalks in the area were redone.
      - Subject: Re: 18th Street Station
      - Message Number: 761160
      - Posted by: Albert
      - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:02:53 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: 18th Street Station posted by Bob A on December 24, 1997 at 08:25:10: Thank you Peter, Bill, Bob for the info. When I go back to school in a month I'll look for any traces.
        
        Subject: Re: 18th Street Station
        Message Number: 761188
        Posted by: Peter Rosa
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:04:20 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: 18th Street Station posted by Albert on December 26, 1997 at 02:34:17: Glad to be of help. If you do find any traces of an entrance, please post the information here.
        
        Subject: Re: 18th Street Station
        Message Number: 761197
        Posted by: Bill from S.I.
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:04:49 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: 18th Street Station posted by Albert on December 26, 1997 at 02:34:17: Know for a fact one is there, so look hard.
        
        Subject: Re: 18th Street Station
        Message Number: 761224
        Posted by: Albert
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:05:56 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: 18th Street Station posted by Peter Rosa on December 26, 1997 at 22:52:10: I will do so, but it won't be until February for that's when I return to school.

Thread title: Re: RJ service to Chambers St. (One more time) (761119)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:21:46 1997, by Carl M. Rabbin

Subject: Re: RJ service to Chambers St. (One more time)
Message Number: 761119
Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:21:46 1997

In Reply to: [7]Re: RJ service to Chambers St. posted by david vartanoff on December 23, 1997 at 18:48:24: The terminal was 168th St. and Jamaica Avenue, not 169th St. The RJ was a local from 95th to 168 St. It was probably too much trouble to run it all the way through Northern Bklyn and Queens, so after a year they changed it to an RR branch (again all local) from 95th St (Fort Hamilton) to Chambers St. Once the M got moved to the West End, the RR Special was no longer needed. Going back real far to the late 1950s and early 1960s, there was a special train on the Brighton line (every 3rd Brighton Express) called the M (once they used new trains and having nothing to do with the Myrtle Avenue line) which ran from Coney Island to Chambers St. via the tunnel in the morning rush, and back to Broooklyn via the tunnel in the evening rush. This was never listed on signs nor on subway maps that the NYCTA put out, but it was there. I'd see it in the evenings a lot of times. My aunt took it to Broad and Wall every day for years. I remember her even saying at Thanksgiving when the Big Change took place, "It's easy for me; I used to take the M, now I take the QJ." They only ran for about an hour each rush hour period. BTW, in the 50s, before it was actually called the M, the BMT standards were used for it. I remember this because all Brighton Expresses via Bridge were the triplex single-door cars (2 to a side), and all Brighton locals and Chambers St. tunnel Brighton expresses used the Standards.
- Subject: Re: RJ service to Chambers St. (One more time)
- Message Number: 761156
- Posted by: Bootsy
- Date: Mon Jan 5 22:02:38 1998
  
  In Reply to: [7]Re: RJ service to Chambers St. (One more time) posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 24, 1997 at 09:34:46: Why was this service never advertised? Was it meant to be kept a secret for whatever reason?

Thread title: Morning Ride from Hell X 2 (761121)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:21:49 1997, by Lou from Brooklyn

Subject: Morning Ride from Hell X 2
Message Number: 761121
Posted by: Lou from Brooklyn
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:21:49 1997

I had a ride from hell this morning and my wife had one too. Stillwell 0648 F went BIE three (3) times. Yes 3 times, I think the boys at command went on a Xmas vacation early. This train should have been discharged and taken out of service after the 2nd time the breaks went into emergency. I know people complain about the G but I think the F is one of the worse Brooklyn Trains... F was for FOREVER this morning. To top things off my wife was coming from her folks house on the Staten Island X6 express bus when a passanger died (near P.S. 42) on the bus. Pax were prevented from leaving the scene (to get on another bus) for a while and then it was SRO for some of them. My heart goes out to all involved in that.
- Subject: Re: Morning Ride from Hell X 2
- Message Number: 761125
- Posted by: Peter Rosa
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:21:57 1997
  
  In Reply to: [8]Morning Ride from Hell X 2 posted by Lou from Brooklyn on December 24, 1997 at 09:51:47: Heck, the subways always have a big problem with "sick passengers," now it sounds like the buses get screwed up with *dead* passengers :-)
  - Subject: Re: Morning Ride from Hell X 2
  - Message Number: 761127
  - Posted by: Lou from Brooklyn
  - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:22:01 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: Morning Ride from Hell X 2 posted by Peter Rosa on December 24, 1997 at 10:10:43: Shared my grief with co worker and he said the reason the bus was Standing Room Only (SRO) is because no one wanted to sit next to the dead guy!! Cheered me up!

Thread title: Re: Aqeduct Race Track City Hall Loop and Bowling Green (761126)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:21:59 1997, by Lou from Brooklyn

Subject: Re: Aqeduct Race Track City Hall Loop and Bowling Green
Message Number: 761126
Posted by: Lou from Brooklyn
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:21:59 1997

In Reply to: [7]Re: Aqeduct Race Track Sta ( was RE:Update on Breaking the Guinness Record ) posted by Bob A on December 24, 1997 at 08:35:16: Okay if City Hall loop is in revenue service, how bout the bowling green/southferry loop they turn the #5's on during non rush hour, are they in revenue service??
- Subject: Re: Aqeduct Race Track City Hall Loop and Bowling Green
- Message Number: 761218
- Posted by: Mark S Feinman
- Date: Mon Jan 5 22:05:45 1998
  
  In Reply to: [8]Re: Aqeduct Race Track City Hall Loop and Bowling Green posted by Lou from Brooklyn on December 24, 1997 at 10:21:22: The outer loop at South Ferry is covered by the #1 line and is in revenue service. The inner loop at South ferry is used to turn around midday #5 trains and is NOT in revenue service. --Mark

Thread title: F Train Blues (761128)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:22:03 1997, by Chris C.

Subject: F Train Blues
Message Number: 761128
Posted by: Chris C.
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:22:03 1997

In Reply to: [7]Re: Morning Ride from Hell X 2 posted by Lou from Brooklyn on December 24, 1997 at 10:41:09: Lou, you're right on the money about the F train. Rush hour is usually okay but late at night and in the daytime it takes forever. Lately rush hour has been as bad as normal F service. If I hear that stupid woman at West 4th come on the PA with her robot voice and say 'there is a Brooklyn bound F train leaving 42nd street', one more time I'm going to SCREAM!!! Also, I would like to know why the F Train is always hip-deep in trash!!! It is, by far, the dirtiest train in New York. This is a simply request for basic service, it's not like I'm asking for a Herculean improvement like a transfer tunnel for the uptown #6 at Bleeker street. If F doesn't stand for fast, what could it possibly stand for????
- Subject: Re: F Train Blues
- Message Number: 761129
- Posted by: Charles Fiori
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:22:05 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]F Train Blues posted by Chris C. on December 24, 1997 at 11:05:25: Ans: "I'm from the federal government and I am here to help you" & "There's another train right behind this one" Ques.: What are the most unbelievable statements known to humankind?
  - Subject: Re: F Train Blues
  - Message Number: 761130
  - Posted by: Bootsy
  - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:22:06 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]F Train Blues posted by Chris C. on December 24, 1997 at 11:05:25: Yeah, well, in this case, 'F' probably doesn't represent the word 'fast', but some other four-letter words . . . . .
    - Subject: Re: F Train Blues
    - Message Number: 761202
    - Posted by: Shunya Togashi
    - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:05:06 1998
      
      In Reply to: [8]Re: F Train Blues posted by Charles Fiori on December 24, 1997 at 11:46:57: "There's another train directly behind this one"(about 500 miles away)* * applies to all rush hour trains I like the F train in Brooklyn for simple reasons. 1. I think it has great scenery from Caroll st. to 4th ave. and again from kings hwy to coney Island 2. From where I used to live, I think the F was Faster to get to Coney Island than the B , D and the N. But I hate this line for several reasons. 1. Manhattan- too slow 2. Alot of junk in the cars 3, the R46? i say are horrible
      - Subject: Re: F Train Blues
      - Message Number: 761203
      - Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
      - Date: Mon Jan 5 22:05:10 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Re: F Train Blues posted by Bootsy on December 24, 1997 at 11:47:21: F--K the passengers?
        
        Subject: Re: F Train Blues
        Message Number: 761211
        Posted by: Bootsy
        Date: Mon Jan 5 22:05:28 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: F Train Blues posted by Hank Eisenstein on December 27, 1997 at 17:49:00: Yeah, something along those lines . . .

Thread title: LIRR-Atlantic Ave tunnel (761131)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:22:08 1997, by John

Subject: LIRR-Atlantic Ave tunnel
Message Number: 761131
Posted by: John
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:22:08 1997

On the LIRR to and from Jamaica and Flatbush Ave, I can see the speedometer from my seat in the first car. It said 75. That is pretty fast for a off-peak midday train. Does anyone know more details about this? Are there other places where LIRR midday trains go faster?
- Subject: Re: LIRR-Atlantic Ave tunnel
- Message Number: 761132
- Posted by: Todd Glickman
- Date: Sun Dec 28 18:22:10 1997
  
  In Reply to: [8]LIRR-Atlantic Ave tunnel posted by John on December 24, 1997 at 12:59:52: Last week I saw 80 mph inbound from Mineola to Jamaica on the main line and also citybound from Kew Gardens to Woodside on the express track. (I think it was the engineers last run of the day; he kept looking at his watch and when entering Penna Station radioed for the location of the train for his ride home.) Also, if you're looking for a koool diesel ride, try the Patchogue to Babylon express; though I doubt it goes much over 60 mph, the bouncing is wonderful (!) and there are endless grade crossings. The (electric) Jamaica-Freeport-Babylon express can also be fun, but every time I've managed to get on one for a ride, the front two cars are closed (how rude!). I also recall that when the M-1s were new, riding at 90 mph for a brief period between Jamaica and Harold Interlocking; max speeds have since been reduced. Here in Boston on the "T" Commuter Rail, continuous welded rail and relatively new coaches [it is push-pull diesel service] provide a smooth a quiet ride (at least in comparison to the LIRR) at top speeds of 65 mph.
  - Subject: Re: LIRR-Atlantic Ave tunnel
  - Message Number: 761144
  - Posted by: Peter Rosa
  - Date: Sun Dec 28 18:22:34 1997
    
    In Reply to: [8]Re: LIRR-Atlantic Ave tunnel posted by Todd Glickman on December 24, 1997 at 13:28:28: If you want to experience "bouncing" on an LIRR train, just ride any express through Mineola. The diesels are the bounciest of all. Dunno what's wrong with the track in that area, but it does do a credible roller coaster imitation. BTW - the fastest commuter trains in the NY area, as far as I know, are Metro North expresses on the New Haven line. They hit close to 100 mph on a stretch of straight track around Mamaroneck and Larchmont. Some of the Harlem line trains get up to 90 between Chappaqua and Mt. Kisco.

Thread title: Locked End Doors (761136)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:22:17 1997, by Steve

Subject: Locked End Doors
Message Number: 761136
Posted by: Steve
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:22:17 1997

In Reply to: [8]Re: Which cars run on which lines?; more hexadecimal humor posted by Adam on December 24, 1997 at 17:26:16: The end doors on all 75' cars are kept locked for safety reasons. Because of the configuration of the cars, on tight turns, the anti-climbers of any two adjacent cars move in opposite directions. This could be perilous for any customer who happened to be caught between cars when going around a tight curve. I have had first-hand experience in this situation and keeping the doors locked is a wise decission.

Thread title: "Sorry...Wrong Number!" (761137)
Started on Sun Dec 28 18:22:19 1997, by Brian Wolk

Subject: "Sorry...Wrong Number!"
Message Number: 761137
Posted by: Brian Wolk
Date: Sun Dec 28 18:22:19 1997

Has anyone ever seen this movie? There are some great pre-1950 NY Subway scenes throughout it. It's about a woman hearing over the phone on a crossed line that she's to be murdered at midnight as the subway passes over on the bridge outside her window, so no one can hear her scream. Pretty thrilling. The movie is black & white and is based on an older radio play that aired in the 1930's.

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